#1 04-30-2009, 08:53 AM

martini7B7

on interpretation: does Yahweh care if His holy texts are misunderstood?

the short? based on prior and contemporary evidence, no.

that is to say, not once has Yahweh corrected anyone from using His "Word"
incorrectly. not once has He stopped anyone from doing something
wrongheaded based on twisting His scripture. if man is fallible and man is
the one interpreting these texts today and man was the one interpreting
them in the not-so-nice past, there is no reason to think that either or
both of them are correct.
we can walk through some examples but i am sure many of them come to mind.
the point to be made is that if Yahweh historically has not cared if His
scripture is misinterpreted and used for what would otherwise be
considered justification of extremely "evil" acts, there is no way to
trust that our modern-day Xians, Muslims, Jews, etc, are acting in
accordance with the original intent of those scriptures -- assuming, of
course, that there ever was any.
some musings while i was out on my run, yesterday. . .
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martini7B7

#2 04-30-2009, 11:40 PM
Pikemann Urge
A side-issue: morals change as society changes. So interpretation and
emphasis on scripture depends on the priorities of society.
But one could just defend against your claim: free will! Isn't that swell!
John Loftus made an interesting point about Satan: you'd have to be dumber
than a "box of rocks" to rebel against infinite power and infinite love -
free will or no free will. Seriously, if you knew you were going to lose
you wouldn't bother. Can any such creature as Satan exist? Surely not.
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Pikemann Urge

#3 05-01-2009, 12:14 PM
martini7B7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikemann Urge
But one could just defend against your claim: free will! Isn't that
swell!
John Loftus made an interesting point about Satan: you'd have to be
dumber than a "box of rocks" to rebel against infinite power and
infinite love - free will or no free will. Seriously, if you knew
you were going to lose you wouldn't bother. Can any such creature as
Satan exist? Surely not.
but free will is not a defense so much as an acceptance that this
hypothesis is true. no matter how effed up Xians get His word, He has not
and will not step in. "because of free will" only cements it!
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martini7B7
#4 05-01-2009, 09:45 PM
reluctantchristian
Martini:
Quote:
the short? based on prior and contemporary evidence, no.
From a biblical perspective, you are discounting the Babylonian Captivity,
Temple destructions, and numerous other ' punishments' handed out to
Israel as a nation and people.
It's in their own text. It's chock full of Elohim being displeased with
'text interpretation', or the lack of it.
But I think that's the greater point of the text.
No one can fully live up to the expectation of ' the text'.
It's impossible.
Pikemann:
Quote:
John Loftus made an interesting point about Satan: you'd have to be
dumber than a "box of rocks" to rebel against infinite power and
infinite love - free will or no free will. Seriously, if you knew
you were going to lose you wouldn't bother. Can any such creature as
Satan exist? Surely not.
I just finished the book of Job again.
'Satan' is listed as a participant in the gathering of the 'sons of God'.
I think his role has been twisted throughout the centuries.
Nothing was done to Job without the full permission of God.
God pointed Job out to 'Satan' who had been 'wandering about the earth
observing'.
 Not omniscient at all, nor omnipresent..
I think in the Hebrew sense, he was God's prosecuting attorney, or, in a
modern sense..God's attack dog.
He's really not that important of a figure in traditional Hebrew theology,
at least as I understand it at this point.
From what I gather, the here and now is the most important thing.

reluctantchristian
#5 05-04-2009, 07:59 AM
martini7B7
they were not misinterpreting anything, RC. they were simply sinning
against Him -- "backsliding". big difference.
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martini7B7
#6 05-04-2009, 08:20 AM
reluctantchristian

Quote:
they were not misinterpreting anything, RC. they were simply sinning
against Him -- "backsliding". big difference.
I thought that over, and would have to agree with you.
I'm still running across words that, in my Bible, the 'Hebrew meaning of
this word is uncertain'. That and the belief that some scriptures were
'found' during a temple rebuilding..

reluctantchristian
#7 05-04-2009, 09:52 AM
martini7B7
yeah, the 2 Kings 22 is total hogwash and is thought to represent the
origin of the written Hebrew legends. naturally, the priestly class who
happened to have found the "lost" Torah get the lion's share of the animal
sacrifices as is written by Moses, himself. how convenient!
eta
II Kings 22:8-10 describes two readings of the entire scroll of
Deuteronomy in a single day, and it has been suggested that the original
scroll may have contained a somewhat smaller legal corpus than our present
book of Deuteronomy. There are indications that different collections of
materials have been brought together or that additions may have been made
from time to time. For example, the requirement that sacrifice be made in
a single place is repeated (cf. 12:5-7 and 12:11-12) and so are the rules
for slaughtering for food (cf. 12:15-17 and 12:20-25). A small collection
of cultic regulations (16:21-17:7) interrupts the discussion of the duties
of officials (cf. 16:20 and 17:8 ff.). There are four separate
introductory statements (cf. 1:1; 4:44 f.; 6:1; 12:1) and two introductory
 units (1:1-4:40 and 4:45-5:31; 4:41-43 is from P). There are two
concluding speeches, 28:1-69 and 29:1-30:20, and in the second there is
clear indication of knowledge of the Exile (cf. 30:1 ff.). There are
sudden shifts in person, from the second person plural (cf. 12:1-12) to
the second person singular (cf. 12:13-31).18
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ll/chap19.html
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Last edited by martini7B7; 05-04-2009 at 09:57 AM.

martini7B7

tangent to this, but thought i would share another failed prophecy of the
Tanach ...
Josiah to die in peace: After Shaphan the scribe read to King Josiah from
"the book of the law" that had recently been discovered in the house of
Yahweh, Josiah sent emissaries to the prophetess Huldah to inquire of
Yahweh concerning Judah's fate for having disobeyed the words of the book.
Huldah predicted dire things for Judah for having forsaken Yahweh, but she
assured Josiah that he personally would fare much better:
Quote:
But as for the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of Yahweh, in
this manner you shall speak to him, "Thus says Yahweh God of Israel:
`Concerning the words which you have heardÄbecause your heart was
tender, and you humbled yourself before Yahweh when you heard what I
spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they
would become a desolation and a curse, and you tore your clothes and
wept before Me, I also have heard you,' says Yahweh. "Surely,
therefore, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be
gathered to your grave in peace; and your eyes shall not see all the
calamity which I will bring upon this place" (2 Kings 22:18-20,
emphasis added).
Rather than dying in peace, as the prophetess here predicted, Josiah was
killed at Megiddo in a battle with Egyptian forces (2 Chron. 35:20-24).
Struck by a volley from Egyptian archers, Josiah said to his servants,
"Take me away, for I am severely wounded." These were hardly the words of
a man who was "dying in peace." He was removed from his chariot and taken
to Jerusalem, where he died and was buried.
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../prophecy.html
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martini7B7
#9 05-04-2009, 09:13 PM
reluctantchristian
Nice piece on 2 Kings.
With all of the info, it's taking me some time to sift through my noggin,
as well as some other rescources.
I will say that looking at your second link, and a quick cross reference
to an old hand-out I have: ' Doctrine of the Deity of Christ', I'm not
finding 'ressurection' listed.
Lemme see if I can pull a Punkish on this one.
Yep.
Verbatim:
http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/deity-christ.html
That's my handout.
As for the O.T., I'll have to go back to my Bible and take a gander. I'm
reading the Psalms at the moment.
Historically speaking, It's fitting that Deuteronomy is included in the
Pentateuch. It's a nice reconciliation of things. It tries to bring things
full circle, considering the history of the moment. Getting back to the
Hashem movement, and remembering who and what you ( they) are.
Who ever said God was Linear?

*EDIT*
O.T. ressurection reference..plenty of them in the N.T.

Last edited by reluctantchristian; 05-05-2009 at 11:10 AM.

reluctantchristian

#10 05-06-2009, 09:33 AM

martini7B7
should i be paying close attention to anything on the hand-out in relation
to my post and raison d'tre?
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