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12/13/2015

CompressorThrust

CompressorThrust
Whatdirectionisthetotalthrustinagasturbine?
ByIzharon13July,20142:59pm
Hello
Whatdirectionisthetotalthrustinagasturbine?
Whatisthereasonforthatdirection.
IfthedirectionoftheThrustistowardstheaftendthanitshouldremaintowardstheforwardendandshouldcontinuouslybeon
theactivesideofthethrustbearing.Generallyingasturbinesinitiallythethrustistowardstheforwardsidebutwhentheturbine
becomesonFullloadorFSNLthepositionoftheshaftchanges(mostlyitremainsinthecentre).Cansomeonepleaseexplain
thereasonforthis.
Thanks

BySB on14July,20141:09am
1outof2membersthoughtthispostwashelpful...
ReplyingtoIzhar's13July,20142:59pmpost
Thisgonnabealengthyreply!
Whatdirectionisthetotalthrustinagasturbine?
Well,thatdepends,eithertheturbineisunderstartup/shutdownornormalrunningcondition.Readontofindhow.
QUICKANSWER:
Startup/Shutdown:TowardsForwarddirection.
Normalrunning:Towardsaftdirection.
Q#1.Whatisthedirectionofthrustinindividualrotarymachines(incompressorandturbinemountedindividually,on
differentshafts)?andwhatifthey'remountedonasingleshaft?
Q#2.Whatdoes"active"and"nonactive"sideofathrustbearingmean?
A#1:ThedirectionofthrustinarotarymachineryisalwaysfromHP(highpressure)sidetoLP(lowpressure)side.
ForCompressorthepressureofinletgasesislowerthanthatofoutletgases,thustheinletsidebecomesLPanddischargeside
becomesHP.Therefore,thrustwillacttowardsinlet(LP).Thusitwillrequireathrustbearingoninletside.
ForTurbine,thepressureofinletgasesishigherthanthatofoutletgases,thustheinletsidebecomesHPandexhaustside
becomesLP.Thus,thrustwillacttowardstheexhaustside.Thusitwillrequireathrustbearingonoutletside.
Fromthis,wecandeducethat,thethrustinacompressorandturbineactsinoppositedirectiontoeachother.
Now,ifwemountthiscompressorandturbineonsingleshaft(asisthecaseinGEdesignheavydutygasturbines),the
resultantthrustofthearrangementwillbeALGEBRAICsumoftheindividualthrustsofcompressorandturbine.Asthistwo
thrustareactinginoppositedirectionthey'lltendtocanceleachother.
Now,We'lllookatthreedifferentoperatingconditionsoftheturbine.
1.Startup:Duringstartupthestartingmeans(dieselengineorsteamturbineorelectricstartingmotor)willruntheturbineup
toaminimumfiringspeed.Uptothisspeed,airiscontinuouslyflowinginthecompressorandgettingcompressed,thus
creatingLPandHPsideoninletandoutletofthecompressorrespectively.Nofuelisadmittedtothecombustionchambers
duringthis,thusnofluegasesflowtotheturbine.Thismeansthattheaircompressedbythecompressorispassingtothe
exhaustthroughtheturbine.Asthereisnofluegasespassingthroughtheturbine,HPandLPsidesarenotcreated,andhence
nothrustintheturbine.ThereforetheresultantthrustwillbetowardstheFORWARD(inlet)endduringstartup.
(Note:Needathrustbearingintheforwardside)
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2.Normalrunning:Duringnormalrunning,thecompressoriscompressingair,fuelisadmittedinthecombustionchamberand
fluegasesarepassingthroughtheturbine.Asfluegasesarepassingthroughtheturbine,theHPandLPsidesarecreated,and
hencethrusttheinturbine.Astheresultantthrustisalgebraicsumofthetwothrusts,they'lltendtobalanceeachother.Asthe
turbinethrustismorethancompressorthrusttheresultantthrustwillbetowardstheAFT(outlet)sideinnormalrunning
condition.
(Note:Needathrustbearinginaftside).
3.Shutdown:Duringshutdown,thefuelflowisrampeddown(decreased)andfinallycutoffataparticularspeed.Thusthe
thrustwillbetowardsFORWARDend(asthereisnoturbinethrust).
Asthecompressorandturbinethrustbalanceeachother,theresultantthrustcanbe"taken"byrelativelysmallthrustbearings.
Insteadofprovidingtwothrustbearingsonforwardandaftend,thrustbearingassemblyisprovidedontheforwardend.This
assemblyconsistofathrustcollarandtwothrustbearingsmountedoneithersideofit.
A#2.Activeside:thesideofthrustbearingwill"take"thethrustduringnormalcondition.
Nonactiveside:thissidewill"take"theloadincaseof"thrustreversal"(maybethereisnosuchterm)i.e.whenthethrust
reversesitsdirectionasinstartup/shutdown.
Comingtotheend,theauthorwantstoknowhowdidyoucomeupwiththisquestion?(IalsohadthesamequestionwhenI
startedworkingonaGEdesignheavydutygasturbine,inmycaseitwasthe"small"sizeofthethrustbearing.)
Hopethishelpsyou.Writebackifyouhaveanyquestionsortogivefeedback.Yourfeedbackisimportant.
==========================================
"Feedbackisarespondentsfeed"

Byizharon14July,20142:46pm
SB
Thanksforthesodetailedreply.Itsveryclearnow.ThisquestionjustcameintomymindwhileIwaswonderingthat
compressormusthavethrusttowardstheforwardendbuttheturbinemusthaveathrusttowardstheaftend(Ididn'tknow
thatbutithoughtitshouldbelikethis,usedmycommonsense).
Yourreplyisveryhelpful.Ihopetogetmorehelpandincreasemyknowledgeongasturbines.
Thanksalot!

BySB on14July,20148:16pm
Replyingtoizhar's14July,20142:46pmpost
Thanksforthefeedback!
You'rewelocomeforanyhelp,essentiallywe'reheretohelpeachother.
=========================================
"onewhoshareshisknowledgeexpandsit."

Byhameedon14July,201410:46pm
SB,
Thankyouforyourdetailedandclearreply.ItisveryhelpfulformeasIhadelectricalbackground.
Regards,
Hameed

ByIzharon15July,20144:53pm
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SB,
Ihaveonemorequestion(oryoucancallitconfusion).
1)Regardingtheinactiveandactivesideofbearingsshouldn'ttheactivesideofthebearingbetowardstheforward.
Becausemorethrustactsduringstartupandshutdownasthereisnoturbinethrust.
2)Duringthenormalloadoperationtheturbinethrustismorethancompressorthrust,Ithink3out4ofthethrustistaken
bythecompressorandtherestbytheturbine(almostbalancingeachotherbutstilltherewillbethrustintheaftdirection).
Butastheturbinestagesareimpulse,itwillfurtherreducethethrust(won'tit?).
3)Isitaconfusion?oramInotveryclearaboutthedefinitionofactiveandinactivesideofthrustbearing?
4)Lastbutnottheleast,ourframe9Egasturbinehasitsactivesideofthebearingtowardstheforwardend(Ithink).
Hopetohearfromyou.
Thanks

BySB on16July,20147:11am
ReplyingtoIzhar's15July,20144:53pmpost
Active/loaded:takethrustduringnormaloperation
Inactive/unloaded:takethrustduring"thrustreversal"
well,
letmeintroduceanewtermrelatedtoaxialmovementoftheshaft,calledCROSSOVER.
Undervariousoperatingconditions,theRESULTANTthrustofthemachinechangesitsdirection(asdescribedinmy
previouspost).Duetochangeinthedirectionofthrust,theshaftwillmoveinthedirectionofthethrust,andthatiscalled
crossover.Atthepointofcrossover,theshaftwillmoveaxially.Crossoverisundesirableaslargeaxialmovementofthe
shaftisnotpermitted.As,forefficientoperationofgasturbine,theclearancebetweencompressorstatorbladesandrotor
bladesisminimum.Butduetoaxialmovementoftheshaft,therotorbladestendtoengagewiththestatorblades,and
thuscausewearandeventuallyinefficientoperationoftheturbine.
Howtoovercomethisproblem?
Therotorassembly(compressor+turbine)isdesignedinsuchawaythattheresultantthrustremainsunidirectionalunder
widerangeofoperationofthemachine.Duringstatupandshutdowntheresultantthrustactsintheforwarddirectionand
thedirectionischangednearratedload(actstowardsaftdirection),andalsothemagnitudeoftheresultantthrustactingin
theforwarddirectionishigherthanthatintheaftdirection.Itisthat,therewillbemorethrustintheforwarddirection
duringstartupandshutdown,andthethrustwillremaininthesamedirectionforawideoperatingrange.Thusyoucan
calltheforwardsideasactiveside.Aspertheauthor'sexperiencewithframe5machine,thereshouldbetwodifferent
typesofthrustbearings.Tiltingpadequalizingtypethrustbearingsarecommonlyemployedas"loaded"thrustbearings
andtaperlandtypebearingsareemployedas"unloaded"thrustbearing.
CONCLUSION:Basedonthedesignphilosophy,activethrustbearingshouldbetowardsforwardside.Thisauthorisnot
familiarwiththeparticulararrangementonGEdesignheavydutyframe9Egasturbine.
Andfortheturbinestages,thereisnocommentfromtheauthoratthetime,butitshouldberememberedthatnowadays
therearenopureimpulseorpurereactionstagesinagasturbine,insteadabladeinastageisacombinationofthetwo
(Isn'tthisinteresting?)
Hopethishelps!
=========================================================================================
"Today,machinesaremorereliablethanhumans"

BySB on16July,20147:33am
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Theauthorhopesthatothermembersoftheforumwillalsosharetheirinsightsonthetopic.

BySB on16July,20147:13am
Replyingtohameed's14July,201410:46pmpost
Thanksforthefeedback!

ByIzharon16July,20142:44pm
SB
Thanksagainforthedetailedresponse.
OurGThastheloadedthrustbearingattheforwardend.Thatmeansthatduringthenormaloperatingconditionsthethrust
shouldactintheforwarddirectionisn'tit?Butyousaidearlierthatdirectionofthrustduringnormaloperationistowards
theaftend.
RegardingthestartupIunderstandthatthrusthasdirectionintheforwardendandthisthrustismorethaninnormal
operatingconditions.
Myquestionisthatshouldn'titbetheotherwayroundieactivesideshouldbeattheaftendifandonlyifthethrust
directioninnormaloperatingconditionistowardstheaftend.
Currentconfigurationoftheourthrustbearingshowsthatduringnormalconditionthedirectionofthrustshouldbe
towardstheforwardend(whichisthenotthecaseasperyourpreviousexplaination).
Inactivesidebeingattheaftendshowsthatduringcrossoverieduringstartupandshutdownthethrustshouldbe
towardstheaftendwhichactuallyisnotthecaseandasexplainedbyyouthethrusthasthedirectiontowardsforwardend
duringstartupandshutdown.
Ithinkifwechangethedefinitionofactiveandinactivethenonlycanwemakethingsclear.
Letssuppose:
Activeside:Thatsidewhichhasthemaximumload.
Inactiveside:Thatsidewhichhastheminimumload.
Nowaccordingtodefinitionforwardendhasthemaximumthrustduringstartupandshutdownthereforewehaveactive
sideattheforwardend.
Andduringthenormaloperationthethrustisintheaftdirectionbuthasthelowestvaluethereforewehaveinactive
bearingattheaftend.
Ithinktheproblemliesinthedefinitiononly.Theconceptofthedirectionexplainedbyyouisquiteclear.
Lookingforwardtohearfromyou.
Thanks

ByBatman on17July,20142:34am
Izhar,
Duringstartup&atlowloadoperationofaheavydutyindustrialgasturbine,the"active"sideofthethrustbearingis
theforwardendcollar.Astheloadincreases,theloadingpatternofthethrustbearingchanges&theaftendcollar
becomes"active".Thiscanbeverifiedbymonitoringtheforward&aftendtemperatureofthethrustbearingatdifferent
loads.
Nexttimewhenyoustarttheturbine,observethetemperatures&notedowntheloadatwhichthepatternstarts
changing.YoucanevenretrievethedatafromthetrendsonyourHMI.Shareyourobservationswithus.
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BySBon17July,201411:54am
whatisexplainedbytheauthorintheveryfirstpostistrueintheory,butindustrialgasturbinerotorassembly
(compressor+turbine)isdesignedinsuchawaythattheresultantthrustremainsunidirectional(intheforward
direction)forawiderangeofoperation(astheauthortriedtoexplaininthesecondpost).Thrustactsintheforward
directionduringstartup,shutdownandalsoformostpartofnormalrunning.Atonepoint(maybenearbaseload)the
directionofthrustreversestowardsaftdirection.Andthemagnitudeofthrustintheaftdirectionislesscomparedtothat
intheforwarddirection.
Hence,theactive/loadedthrustbearingisinforwarddirectionandinactive/unloadedthrustbearingisinaftdirection.
Hopethisaddressesallyourquestion.
===========================================
"looongnightshiftcanmakeyoufeeldizzythewholeday"

Byizharon17July,20141:58pm
Thankyouallforsuchagreatreplies.DuringnextstartupIwillobservethetemperaturereadingsandwillsharemy
observation.
Thanksagainforsharingyourknowledge.

Bypreetammohantyon21July,20157:23am
hiall,
isthereanyspecificreasontoplacethethrustbearingatbearingno.1?isexpansionofrotororstatorhasgotanythingto
dowiththepositioningofthethrustbearing?

ByNKumaron11October,201511:36pm
Ihaveabasicquestionregardingthedirectionofthrustforce.Thrustisnothingbutareactionforce.Foreg,inanaxial
compressor,IftheforceduetopressuredifferenceisfromHPtoLP(terminologyfrompreviousposts)orafttofwd,
thendirectionofreactionforcemustbeintheoppositeside,i.e,fwdtoaft?
pleasecorrectmeifIamwrong.

ByCSA

on12October,201512:46pm

Therehavebeenseveralstatementsmadeinthisthread,that,whilenotentirelycorrect,areconfusinganddonotapply
toallgasturbinesparticularlyallGEdesignheavydutygasturbines.
Foreveryactionthereisanequalandoppositereactionthatmuchwecanallagreeon,right?WhenaGEdesignsingle
shaft(axialcompressorandturbinesectionscoupledtogethertoformasingleshaft)isrunningatornearratedspeedthe
compressorispushingtheairaxiallyfromtheinlettowardstheexhaust(from"forward"to"aft"???).Thisistheaction:
airbeingpushed(compressed)asitflowsthroughtheaxialcompressorfromtheaxialcompressorinlettowardsthe
turbineexhaust(paralleltotheaxisoftheshaft).
Thereactionisthattheshaft(axialcompressorandturbine)ispushedaxiallyintheoppositedirectionfromthegas
turbineexhaustexhausttowardstheaxialcompressorinlet(from"aft"to"forward"???).Thethrustbearingisusually
locatedinthe#1bearingareawhereit'smuchcoolerthanifitwerelocatedintheexhaustarea(the#2or#3bearing
area,dependingonthedesignofthemachine).
Yessomeoftheshaftthrustcreatedbytheflowofhotcombustiongasesthroughtheturbinesectiondoesoffsetsomeof
theshaftthrustcreatedbytheaxialcompressor,butnotmuch.It'snotevenveryequal(theaxialthrustforcesdeveloped
bytheflowofhotgasesthroughtheturbinesection),astheturbine"buckets"(blades)areacombinationofimpulseand
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reactionbladesperformingtheexpansionandprimarilyturningtheforcescreatedbytheflowofhotgasesintorotational
forces(torque).Thisisoneofthedifferencesbetweenaircraftgasturbinesandpowergenerationgasturbines(orthose
usedtoproducetorquetodrivemechanicalloads,includinggenerators).Aircraftgasturbineswantmostoftheirenergy
todevelopaxialthrusttopropeltheaircraftforward,whilegasturbinesusedtodrivemechanical(includingelectrical)
loadswanttoproducerotatingtorquenotaxialthrust.
FclassGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesdooperatealittledifferentlyduringstartingandaccelerationfromtheir
older,smallerbrethreninthattheyhavea"reverse"thrustduringstartingandaccelerationfromwhatisnormally
experiencedduringfullspeedoperation,andtheprevailingbeliefisthatit'sduetothestartingmeansprovidingmostof
energyforacceleratingandcompressingtheairduringstartingandacceleration.(Myself,itseemstheaxialcompressor
isdoingthesamethingcompressingairandpushingittowardsthegasturbineexhaustwhichshouldstillcausethe
shafttomovetowardstheaxialcompressorinlet,sothisdoesn'tseemtofullyexplainwhyFclassturbinesbehavethe
waytheydoduringstartingandacceleration.)But,onceanFclassunitreachesratedspeed,thenormaldirectionof
thrustisjustlikeeveryotherGEdesignheavydutygasturbinepushingtheshafttowardsthe#1bearing(axial
compressorinlet)astheairiscompressedandpushedoutoftheaxialcompressordischargeareatowardsthegasturbine
exhaust.
Lastly,IhaveanissuewithusingHPandLPtodescribethedirectionofshaftthrustforcestheairenteringtheaxial
compressorofagasturbineis"lowpressure"asistheexhaustleavingthegasturbine(usuallyjustafewmmofH2O).
Itwouldseemtobemoredescriptivetodescribewhichdirectiontheshaftisbeingmovedtowardstheaxialcompressor
inletortowardsthegasturbineexhaust(axially)bythethrustforcesdeveloped(andslightlyoffset)bytheaxial
compressorandturbinewhicharecoupledtogether.
That'smytwopenceonthissubject,forwhatit'sworth.

Byrohan_ram on24October,20154:10am
Numberofinterestingexplanationshavebeenalreadygiven.
Anassumptionhaspuzzledmeregardingthenetthrust,TheGE9Egasturbineatourpowerplantis11mmbelowthe
generator.FortheGTandgeneratortocoupletogetherthethegasturbinehastotilt,Thenetresultwillbethattheinlet
ofthecompressorislowerthattheturbineexhaust.ThiswillresultinanetaxialthrusttowardstheCompressorinlet
side.
Kindlyshareyouviewswhetherthis11mmheightdifferencebetweenGTandthegeneratorwillhaveaneffectonaxial
thrustornot.
Thanksinadvance.

ByCSA

on24October,201512:07pm

rohan_ram,
Abouttheonlytimethismighthaveaneffecton"thrust"wouldbewhentheunitwasatzerospeed,oroncooldown
(hydraulicratchetslowrollturninggear).
Iwouldventuretosaythatanyintentionaldifferenceinheightbetweentheturbineandgeneratorwouldbetominimize
theeffectsofheatduringrunning.Allmaterials(okay99.9999%ofmaterials)grow/expandwhensubjectedtoheat
andtheturbinesectionoftheunitgetsdarnedhot.(MostGEdesignFrame9Eheavydutygasturbineshavewater
coolingjacketsontheaftsupportlegsjusttohelpreducetheeffectofgrowthofthesupportlegsduetotheheat
radiatingfromtheturbinecasing.)And,whenaligningequipmentmisalignmentslikethisareintentionalsothatwhen
theunitisuptoratedspeedandtemperaturetheunitsaremorecloselyinline(aligned)andsovibrationdueto
misalignmentisminimizedandwearonthecouplingandcouplingboltingisminimized.
Hopethishelps!
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