Midterm – Packet Chazara Rav Simon’s Shiur – Spring 2008

Shiur Chazarah:
Brachot – Spring 2008
Midterm – Packet Questions
Below are the answers to the Packet Questions for the Spring 2008 Midterm
in Rav Simon’s morning shiur on Masecet Brachot. The information is based
both on the shiurim themselves, as well as chazara shiur. It is more than
possible that there are mistakes or omissions, although this is the product of
a tremendous amount of learning, chazarah, and organizing. Any errors or
omissions are mine alone. If you find anything problematic in these notes,
please contact me at charnoff@yu.edu. Special thanks to my chevrusah,
Harry Portman. Anything correct is due largely to his efforts as well. Special
thanks to Rav Baruch Simon for sharing his Torah and himself with all of his
talmidim. We are all truly luck to have this opportunity to learn from him and
with him. Hatzlacha rabba and keep on shteigin!

--Robby Charnoff

1) How do Rabeinu Tam and the Ramban disagree on the definition

of bread?

Mishnah in Challah 1:5: You have to be mafrish challah if the dough it

techilaso sufgenin v’sofo eisa or if it’s techilaso eisa v’sofo sufgenein.

Rabeinu Tam: Techilato is referring to what type of batter you use and sofo
is referring to what you actually do to the dough. The paradigm bread is
thick dough that is baked. The mishnah is saying that even if you only have
one of the two, there is still an obligation of challah. (This is assuming that it
has tzuras hapas.)
 In terms of the obligation of hamozti: If it’s from thick dough, it’s
automatically hamotzi, if it’s from a thin dough it’s only hamotzi if you
bake it.

Ramban: The whole mishnah is talking about a thick dough. Techilaso

sufgenin means that you had in mind to cook it and sofo sufgenin means that
you actually cooked it. If you either actually baked it or even only had in
mind to bake it, you are still obligated in challah.
 What would the Ramban say about a thin dough?
o Rabbeinu David: A thin dough is never obligated in challah
o Meiri, Maharam Chalavah: It’s pashut to the Ramban that baking
makes anything obligated in challah (either a thick or a thin
dough). His chiddush was that for a thick dough, even intent
can make it obligated in challah. (This explaination clarifies the
seeming contradiction in the Shulchan Aruch.)
 In terms of the obligation of hamozti: Even though he holds that intent
can make the dough obligated in challah, you need actual baking to
make it obligated in hamotzi.

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2) What are the three principles of Rabbenu Yonah on the topic of

bread that had something done to it in order to change it?

1. Bread that is cooked: If after the bread is cooked it still contains kezayis
sized pieces of bread, it retains the status of bread. If not, then it loses
the status of bread.
 Learned from the gemarah which says that after being cooked,
bread requires prusos kayamos, along with the Yerushalmi that
adds the requirement of a kezayis.
2. Bread that is globbed together: If you take a piece of bread, break it into
pieces, and then use a substance to glob it back together, if it either has a
kezayis (even without toar lechem) or even if it only retains toar lechem,
then it is still considered bread.
 Learned from Tosafot’s definition of chavitza.
3. Bread that is pulverized into tiny pieces: It retains its status of bread
unconditionally.

(All of these rules are quoted in Shulchan Aruch [even though all of them can
be disputed].)

3) How do the Rishonim disagree on the definition of chavitzah?

Rashi: It is cooking bread (like French toast).

 According to the conclusion of this sugya, even if there is no
kezayis at the end, as long as the cooked bread has tzuras hapas it
remains bread.
 Rashi’s pshat connects this sugya with the previous sugya and thus
adds the component of kezayis according to the Babvli. On the
other hand, there is no indication that these two sugyot are in fact
connected and the conclusion of the gemara is that there is no
requirement of kezayis for cooked bread, which makes the
conclusion not lehalacha anyway.

Tosafot: It’s when you crush up bread and then glob it back together using
another substance.
 According to the conclusion of this sugya, even if at the end there is
no kezayis of bread in the glob, as long as it has tzuras hapas it
remains bread.

4) Is frying considered to be like cooking regarding these issues?

Mishnah Brurah: He first quotes the Magen Avraham, but then points out
that there are others that disagree with him, so he says that since it’s a safek
whether or not frying is like cooking, one should try to eat fried dough in the
context of a meal.

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Magen Avraham: Cooking by default removes toar lechem and thus

removes the status of bread. Frying retains the status of bread, even if it’s
less than a kezayis, since it retains toar lechem.

Chazon Ish: Once you cook the dough and it’s less than a kezatis, not only is
it not bread, it’s not even pas haba’ah bekisnin (PHB). Frying retains the
status of bread, even if it’s less than a kezayis, since it retains toar lechem.
Cooking and frying are therefore different.

Sha’ar Tziyon: Frying is like cooking.

5) What is the din if you cook a kezayis of bread but then cut it into
pieces that are less than a kezayis?

Chazon Ish: If you take a piece of bread that is a kezayis, cook it, and then
cut it into pieces, it’s mezonos. As long as at the end of the day it’s less than
a kezayis and cooked, it’s mezonos. It’s not even PHB, so even if you are KS
on it, you wouldn’t say hamotzi.

6a) Explain the position of the Rambam about bread that is cut into
pieces and then cooked or globbed together with another
substance?

If bread is broken into pieces and then cooked into a dish or kneaded with
some sort of substance: (1) If it has pieces that are kezaitim or retains tzurat
hapat, it gets hamotzi; (2) If it does not have a kezayit or it loses tzurat hapat
through cooking, then it gets mezonot.

There is clear contradiction between the two dinnim. The first din implies
that for bread to lose its status as hamotzi, it needs to lose both kezayis and
tzuras hapas. The second din, however, implies that if the bread loses either
kezayis or tzuras hapas it loses its status as bread!

The Beis Yosef brings three possible answers to the contradiction in the
Rambam:

1) Rambam’s grandson: The word ‫ או‬on this instance means ‫עם‬. This
solves the contradiction since now the second din also means that you
need to lose both kezatis and tzuras hapas to lose the status of bread.

2) Rav Yosef Alfasi: There is a difference between nishtaneh and

she’avrah. A shinuy cannot affect a kezayit but can affect a piece of
bread less than a kezayit. A ha’avarah can affect even a kezayis. It’s a
bigger change. Therefore: If a piece of bread is bigger than a kezayis,
even if it underwent a shinuy, or less than a kezayas, as long as it didn’t
undergo even a shinuy, it retains the status of bread. If, however, a piece
of bread, even the size of a kezayis, underwent a change on the scale of
ha’avarah, it loses its status as bread.

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3) Beis Yosef: Each din is relating to one half of the original case. The
first din is relating to the second case of lasha bemarak. The second din is
relating to the first case of cooking. Therefore: By lasha bemarak, if you
have either kezayis or tzuras hapas it retains its status as bread. By
cooking, you need both kazayis and tzuras hapas for it to retain its status
as bread.

6b) How do the poskim differ on the brachah on keneidlach? Explain.

Magen Avraham: If you take matzah meal, glob it together, and cook it, you
make hamotzi on the result. He makes a distinction between globbing and
making a new mass. Globbing is taking pieces of bread and sticking them
together. In such a case you need either a kezays or tzuras hapas. Here,
however, you’re not sticking the pieces of bread together; you’re taking the
pieces and making them into a single mass of bread larger than a kezayis.
As such, if you bake it, or even cook it, it remains hamotzi.

Shulcha Aruch HaRav: If you make cake out of matzah meal, you say
hamotzi. It is possible that he is making an even bigger chiddush here by
saying that the principle of the Magen Avraham applies even if you add other
substances to the mass like sugar.

Siddur of the Alter Rebbe: He retracts this distinction. Globbing and

massing are the same.

7) Explain the position of the Aruch Hashulchan regarding hafrahsas

challah by honey cake.

Shulachan Aruch: A thin dough that is baked is obligated in challah.

Aruch Hashulchan: Anything that’s made as a snack type food is not

obligated in challah. The implication here is that the Torah definition of
lechem is not just a baked product, it must be a meal product. He learns this
from a mishnah in Challah that explicitly states that snack type cake (like
duvshenin) is not obligated in challah.

Machzeh Aliyahu: The Aruch Hashulchan is however learning against the

gemarah, because the gemarah on this mishnah says that these items are
not obligated in challah specifically because they were baked in the sun and
not baked in an oven. This would imply that baking itself is what makes
something lechem according to the Torah.

Rashba: Snack type food that is baked in an oven is therefore obligated in

challah.

8) Explain the positions of the Rishonim regarding the definition of

Pas Haba’ah Bekisnin.

1) Rashi/Rabbeinu Chananel (in the Rabbenu Yonah): Defines PHB as

dough that literally has a pocket into which you insert another substance.

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2) Rambam: Defines PHB as dough that is kneaded with sugar or fruit juice
or something like that.

3) Rav Hai Gaon: Understands kisnin as coming from koses, which means to
chew. PHB is then a brittle, crunchy piece of bread, like pretzels. There is
more of a process of chewing.

Maamar Mordichai: Each opinion really does agree with each other – they
are just giving different examples.

Beis Yosef: Since we have a safek about which opinion is right, we paskin
lekulah by all of them. So you would say mezonot on all of them.

Nesivos: PHB is something that you snack on. That’s why it is not hamotzi –
you usually are not koveah seudah on it. So whatever is snack food is
mezonot (unless you actually are koveah seudah on it), and whatever is meal
food is hamotzi even if you’re not koveah seudah on it. So even though egg
challah might fit into one of the categories of PHB, since it is a meal food, it
will always be hamotzi.

9) Give the opinion of the Maharach Or Zaruah in regards to eating

PHB on Shabbat.

The gemarah in Beitza says that Shaboos makes all of your eating achilas
kevah. Therefore PHB on Shabbos is automatically kavuah. So if you even
eat a kezayis of cake on Shabbos, you have to wash and say birchat
hamazon (BH).

10) Is one obligated to eat PHB in a sukkah on Sukkot?

Achilas aria you can eat outside of the sukkah, achilas kevah you have to eat
inside the sukkah. More than a kebeitzah is considered achilas kevah.

Magen Avraham: If you eat more than a kebeitza, it’s considered KS, and
you have to eat it in the sukkah. This is why people will make a lesheiv when
they eat mezonot. (Ohters argue on this and say that you need the normal
amount of KS, like 3-4 beitzim.)

Orach La’neir (Bikurei Ya’akov): A lot of people eat cake and say a
leishev, but they don’t say BH. By kiddush on Shabbos this makes sense,
because you can say that for keviah by kiddush you only need a kebeitzah, so
you can say a leisheiv and not say BH. What about in general, though? If
you are saying a leishev on PHB, it is a statement that you are being KS. If
that is the case, you should have to say hamotzi. Therefore what we do is
contradictory. If you say a leishev, you should have to wash. Since we don’t
tend to wash, we shouldn’t be saying a leishev. Therefore he says that a
kebeitza of PHB is not enough to be KS and you shouldn’t say a leishev.

11) Does one say mezonot on PHB at the end of a motzi meal?

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The poskim differentiate between eating lekinuach, for taste (even though
you’re full), and eating lesovaeh, to fill yourself up. Since you eat desert for
the taste, even though you are full, you make a separate bracha.

Misnah Berura: If you eat cake for desert, even if just for the taste, you
don’t make a separate bracha.

Be’er Halacha: Some poskim claim that each one of the opinions of PHB is
specific. According to these poskim, we don’t know which is the real PHB,
which means that the other alternatives are va’adai pas. So in the case of
desert, we paskin safek derabanan lekulah, and therefore don’t make a
bracha, because according to at least one opinion, the desert is pas gamur
and therefore the bracha would be a bracha she’eino tzricha. In the case
where the desert fulfills all three opinions, however, like in the case of cherry
pie, you would in fact make a bracha, because it’s PHB according to all
opinions.

Rav Moshe: In the time of chazal, their cake was made with a little sugar or
fruit juice or something like that. Our cakes are different than those in the
time of Chazal, however. Since there is so much sugar and eggs and other
things, they are vadai PHB. If this is the case, then you would always have to
say a bracha on desert at the end of a meal.

12) What is the din in regards to eating PHB on Shabbos? What

about in terms of Seudas Shabbos? Can one fulfill his obligation of
seudas Shabbos PHB?

Maharach Or Zaruah: The gemarah in Beitza says that Shaboos makes all
of your eating achilas kevah. Therefore PHB on Shabbos is automatically
kavuah. So if you even eat a kezayis of cake on Shabbos, you have to wash
and say birchat hamazon.

Rav Moshe: Even though we don’t paskin like the Maharach Or Zaruah, if
you don’t have bread on Shabbos for lechem mishneh, you can be somech on
the Maharach Or Zaruah and be koveah seudah on PHB.

Shulchan Aruch Harav: He originally said that you need to be KS on PHB in

order to fulfill your obligation of seudas Shabbos, but besof yamav, he said
that even if you only eat a kezayit of PHB on Shabbos (saying a mezonos on
it), you fulfill the mitzvah of seudas Shabbos.

13) Explain the position of the Shulchan Aruch regarding the

blessing on a pashtidah. Explain the argument amongst the poskim
regarding this issue.

A pashtida is dough with meat or cheese inside.

Shulchan Aruch: You say hamotzi on a pashtida.

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Magen Avraham: You make hamozti on a pashtida even if you eat a

kezayit. This means that it is pas gamur.

Taz: It’s PHB! It therefore follows the rules of PHB. The SA was only talking
about when you are KS on it.

Magen Avraham: When the dough is stuffed with non-meanlt type food like
fruit, then it is PHB. If you have meal type food on the dough, however, it’s
pas gamur. (We paskin this way. Example: deli role.)

Taz: It’s not mistaber that 10 seifim later the SA is giving you a new din in
PHB. Therefore, a pashtida follows the rules of PHB and this is talking about
when you are KS on it. This is an application of the rules of PHB in a specific
case.

Piskei Riaz: PHB is when the food is made as a snack, but a pashtidah is
made for a meal, so it’s considered bread.

Tanya Rabati: You only make a hamotzi on a pashtidah when you are KS on
it. (Same as Taz.)

Agur: You shouldn’t think to say a shehakol on a pashtidah just because

there is so much meat. You make a hamotzi on it. (This is probably the
source for the Magen Avraham because it is clear from the Agur’s discussion
that there is no havah aminiah that a pashtida is PHB. The only question is
whether it’s hamotzi or shehakol. Therefore, the SA really means that a
pashtida is always hamotzi.)

14) Explain the perspective of the Sdei Chemed in explaining of the

position of Rav Hai Gaon regarding PHB.

Rav Hai Gaon says that when dough is made brittle it becomes something
you snack on, so it is PHB. The Sdei Chemed extends this to say that maybe
even if it’s not brittle, as long as it’s something you snack on, it’s PHB.
Therefore something like challah balls would be mezonot. Just because it’s
baked as little balls, even though it’s basically still bread, it’s enough of a
shinuy to make it PHB.

15) Explain the disagreement between the Rambam and the Ra’avad
regarding KS on PHB.

Rabmam: You follow what the majority is koveah on. (We paskin this way.)

Ra’avad: You follow what you are koveah on.

16) Explain the opinions of the Agur and the Beis Yosef regarding
KS.

Agur: KS means your morning and evening meal. When you eat at that time,
what you are eating is your seudah, so you are KS.

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Rav Yechiel Michal Stern: You could also understand the Agur as saying
that you have to have the amount that you normally eat to fill yourself up if
it’s not the morning or night.

Beis Yosef: He disagrees with the Agur and says that KS is an amount. You
have to eat a certain amount of food to be koveah on it. Time is not a factor.

17) Explain the different opinions regarding the shiur of KS by PHB.

Tosafot Yom Hakupurim: The maximum amount for eiruv chatzerot is 18

grugros which is defined as two seudos. This comes out to either 3-4
kebeitzim per seudah.

Rav Akiva Eiger: 3-4 kebeitzim is KS.

Gra (quoted in the Chaye Adam): 3-4 beitzim is a poor person’s meal. A
normal person would eat 8 beitzim during seudas erev vavoker.

Magen Avraham: He has three rules:

1) The shiur for hamotzi on PHB alone is what would fill up a normal person.
This means that even if you are not full after eating this amount, you
would still say BH.
2) If you eat PHB with other things, even though you didn’t eat enough PHB
to be KS on it, since you are eating enough food in total to be KS, you still
say hamotzi and birchat hamazon on the PHB.
3) If you eat the amount of PHB that others would normally eat with other
food in order to fill themselves up, and you are filled up by the PHB alone,
you still are considered to have been KS and you must say BH.

Chemed Moshe: The pashtus of being KS on PHB is when you are eating the
required amount of PHB alone, not with other foods. The Magen Avraham
said is wrong. (This is a big kulah.)

Aruch Hashulchan: 3-4 beitzim is a pauper’s meal. He says that we know

that Benei Yisrael received an omer of manna every day. They got 43
beitzim for two meals. This means that one seudah is 21.5 beitzim.

Rav Moshe: He argues with the Aruch Hashulchan and says that a normal
person can’t eat 21.5 beitzim in one seudah. How much PHB you need to be
KS when eaten with other food is dependent upon how much bread you
normally eat during a meal. In our time, we eat very little bread during a
regular meal, often less than even three beitzim. Therefore, if you eat even a
small amount of PHB within a full meal, you would have to say hamotzi on the
PHB.
• Therefore you shouldn’t eat cake at a wedding if you want to leave
early because even if you don’t eat bread, with very little cake you will
be obligated to bench with the zimun.

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Rav Shlomo Zalman: Deserts like cake are not included in the amount of
PHB required to say BH, since it is not eaten within the seudah.

Rav Shlomo Gross: (In response to Rav Moshe) How can you be KS on PHB
if you are eating so little PHB? It must be that the PHB is a major part of the
meal. People used to eat a lot of bread with their meal because it was a
major part of their meal. So today, we have to eat as much PHB as they
would have eaten bread in a normal bread meal to be KS. This is at least 3-4
beitzim of PBH alone along with shiur seviah with other foods.

Shulchan Aruch Harav (Alter Rebbe): If you hold 3-4 beitzim, it has to be
specifically 3-4 beitzim of bread. If you say other things count, then why do
you need 3-4 beitzim of bread specifically for eiruv chatzeiros?

18) Explain the relationship between satiation and the obligation of

BH.

There are 4 possible interpretations of the verse: veachalta, vesavata:

• Satiation is defined by your personal satiation.
• Satiation is defined by what makes most people full.
• Rebbi Yehudah: The verse is referring to the specific shiur that makes
one soveah, which is on beitza.
• Rebbi Meir says that veachalta refers to the minimal eating of a
kezayit and vesavata refers to drinking. Therefore, if you eat a kezayit
and have something to drink you would be obligated to say BH.
o For the last two opinions, which come from the gemarah, the
pasuk is only working as an asmachta so these two opinions are
derabanan.

Brachot 20b: The angels ask Hashem how He can show favor to Benei Yisrael.
Hashem responds: How can I not? I commanded them that they only have to
say BH when they are soveah, yet they are medakdekin on themselves the
shiurim of kezayis and kebeitza.

Sefer Yereim: The gemara on 20b clearly shows that the chachamim were
doresh the verse itself teach the shiurim of kezayis and kebeitza. This makes
them deoraisa.

Sefer HaChinuch: Seviah is dependent on you.

Rav Akiva Eger: Seviah is dependent on others.

Radvaz: A person who eats a kezayis and is full because he is either sick or
old would still have to say BH. This is because the obligation of BH is
dependent on your personal seviah.

Be’er Halacha: If someone ate before and then ate bread and feels full from
the two, he still has to say BH medeorasa.

Pri Megadim:

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19) Explain the gemarah about Rav Hunah.

Rav Huna ate 104 kebeitzim and didn’t say BH. Rav Nachman asks him why
he didn’t say BH!

Rashi: He ate bread, but didn’t say BH because he wasn’t full. Shouldn’t he
still have an obligation to say BH mederabanan though? (Rashi leas this as a
question.)

Ben Arye: Rav Huna intended to say BH, but he wanted to eat more food
first in order to be obligated medeoraisa.

Rashba: Rav Huna was eating PHB and he didn’t say BH, but he did say al
hamichya. Rav Nachman questions why he said al hamichya instead of
saying BH.

Sefer Yereim: He was eating PHB and wasn’t full yet to he didn’t think he
was obligated in BH.

Tzlach: He gives two possible explainations:

1) Rav Huna was a ba’al keri. A BK is only onligated in deoraisa brachos.
Since he wasn’t full from eating his BHP, he assumed he was not
obligated in BH medeoraisa and since he was a BK he assumed that he
was not obligated in BH mederabanan. Rav Nachman was saying to
him that he was in fact obligated in BH medeoraisa because the shiur
seviah medeorais for BH is whatever makes most people full (which is
way less than 104 kebeitim).
2) What about if he was eating bread, like the Behag sayshe was? They
were all eating together and they asked Rav Huna to lead them in BH.
He wasn’t full so he didn’t have a deoraisa obligation. He therefore
didn’t want to lead BH for others who did in fact have a deoraisa
obligation. Ran Nachman argues with him and says that as long you
eat the amount of food that makes most people soveah, you are
obligated medeoraisa. He therefore could lead BH.

20) Explain the contradiction in the Beis Yosef regarding the din of
KS by PHB. Give some possible answers to this contradiction.

There is a stira in the Beis Yosef. First he says that the shiur for KS is
dependent on others. Later he says that the shiur is dependent on you or on
others.

Even Haozer: If something is va’adai PHB, fulfilling all three opinions, we

rely on the amount that other people would eat. But if it doesn’t fulfill all
three opinions, therefore making it safek PHB, it could be pas gamur. This
makes the question of saying BH a sefek deoraisa and we paskin that safek
deoraisa is lechumra. Therefore you would say BH whether you were
personally soveh or you ate enough for others to be soveah.

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[The rest of this answer does not directly relate to the actual question.]

Rav Akiva Eiger: PHB is really pas gamur on a deoraisa level. Why, then,
don’t we say that even vadai PHB is dependent on your own seviah? You
have to say that either the definition of vesavatah is that which makes people
in general soveah or you have to say that uveirachtah includes al hamichya.
Therefore, either medeoraisa you are only obligated to say BH when you eat
the amount that people in general are KS on or since you fulfill the deoraisa
obligation with al hamichya, the amount is a safek derabanan and we hold
lekulah that it’s dependant on the amount that others are koveah on.

Shulcha Aruch Harav: On a deoraisa level PHB is bread, so once you are
soveah you should have an obligation to say BH. However, medeoraisa you
fulfill your obligation of uveirachtah with al hamichya. Therefore the amount
for KS becomes a safek derabanan and we paskin lekulah that it’s dependant
on what others are koveah on.

Rama: On a deoraisa level PHB is still pas gamur, but people simply aren’t
KS on it. The chachamim only instituted BH on things which people are KS
on. Therefore, it is definitely al hamichya. In that case, the shiur for seviah is
a safek derabanan and we paskin lekulah that it’s what others are koveah on.

21) Explain the opinion of the Ra’ah regarding the din of saying
hamotzi when you are KS on PHB.

Ra’ah: PHB is really not bread because you made it into a snack type food.
When you are KS on it, however, it makes it like bread.

Eidus L’Ya’akov: PHB is considered bread in terms of the obligation of

challah, but because you made it into a snack type food, it doesn’t require
BH. If you were to treat it like a meal type food, however, then it becomes
like bread.

When you are KS on it, does that then make you obligated in BH medeoraisa
or mederabanan? Unclear.

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