InterviewwithTrishSalah

Nia:Soyouweresayingthatyoumadeartoutsideofinstitutionsforalongtime.Iwouldloveto
hearaboutthat.
Trish:Well,toacertaindegree,ItookatraditionalpathslashIdidacouplecreativewriting
degrees,butwithinthosedegreesImostlymetpeoplewhoIthenendedupworkshopping
outsideofschoolwith.Andforawhileinthe90s,Iworkedwithpeopleonasmallwasita
magazine?ItwasalittlemagazinecalledIndex.Andwewereinterestedinproducingaqueer
culturalstudies/criticaltheory,experimentalpoeticsspace.SoIthinkIstarteddoingsortofindie
artsproductioninthecontextofdroppingoutofaPhDatColumbiaanddecidingthatalittle
magazineandacommunityofpeoplewhoIwasthinkingwithandexcitedbywaskindofthe
waytogo.AndthenIgotreally,reallybrokeandstartedtotransitionandhadahardtime
actuallymakingalivingandsoIthought,"Oh,aunionizedPhDprogramwhereintheTAshave
acollectiveagreementthatsupportsthemisagoodwaytohaveajob."SoIwentbacktograd
schoolbecauseitofferedemployment,butmostoftheartmakingI'vedonehasbeen
independentof,andnothingtodowith,that.
ImovedtoMontrealwhenIwas19becauseIwantedtowrite.AndthenIthought,"it'seasierto
getstudentloansthanitistogetagranttowrite,soIgotstudentloansanddidacoupleof
creativewritingdegreeswhereIlearnedalotofcraftstuffandmetsomeprettyinspiring
teachersaswellasthepeoplewhoI'dactuallyreadwithandwritewithforyearsafterthat.
ThenIstartedaPhDatColumbiainNewYorkin'94.Foravarietyofreasons,Columbiadidn't
makesenseasaplaceforme.ImeanIwenttherebecauseIwantedtostudywithpeoplelike
EdwardSaidandGayatriSpivak,whowereenormouslyinspiringtomythinking,andstillare
frankly.Queerlifewassortofboomingintheacademyinacertainwayinthehumanitiesinthe
nineties,evenqueerofcolorlifeinsomeways.Beingtransintheuniversityreallydidntwashat
thattime.AndIdidntactuallyknowhowtomakesenseoftransitioninginanenvironment
whereIcouldntdoworkontransissueswhileIwasinschool.SoIleftthatprogram.
WhenwefirstarrivedatColumbia,ourfirstorientationwas,Thisishowyouavoidbeing
griftedbythelocalcommunitybecauseofcourseColumbiasinHarlem.Soitsalessonin
classstratificationthedayyouarrive,right?
Nia:WesortofstartedinthemiddlesoIthinkImgoingtotrytogoback.
Trish:Yeah,okay.
Nia:Letsstartatthebeginningnow.SoyougrewupinHalifax,NovaScotia?

Trish:Yeah,wellIwasborninHalifax.WelivedthereuntilIwasseven;mydadpassedaway.
MyfatherwasborninLebanon.MymotherwasborninNovaScotiaandsomyfamilysmixed
becauseherbackgroundissortofIrish,Welsh,British.
Nia:Seven.IguessImcuriousabouthowyoudevelopedanArabidentitywithoutyourdadin
thepicture.
Trish:Wellitscomplicated,right?IcalledmyfirstbookWantinginArabicforareasonright,
justbecauseIwantedtobeinArabic.IlackedArabicinacertainway.
Whenwereyoung,wewereenrolledinanArablanguageschool,anightschoolbriefly,butthe
populationwassuchthattheschooldidntstayopen.MymomlearnedsomeArabic,sowehad
someArabicinthehomewhenweweregrowingup,butaftermyfatherpassed,thatpassedas
well.WemovedtoDartmouthtobeclosertohersideofthefamily,whowereinDartmouth,so
wehadlesscontactwithourcousinsandauntsanduncles[onmydadsside],soIreallyequated
thelossofmyfatherwiththelossofasenseofwhatitwastobeArab.Youknow,myfamilyin
LebanonareMaronite.AtleastinCanada,alotofMaronitepeoplerefertothemselvesas
LebaneseratherthanasArabandIthinkitwasonlyinmylatetwentiesthatIunderstoodthat
therewasapoliticizeddistinctionthere,thatidentifyingasArabmeantrefusingakindof
IslamophobicconstructionofMuslimArabsthatwasveryquietlyatworkwithintheassertionof
LebaneseidentityratherthanArabidentity.
Nia:Thatssuperinterestingtomebecause,somygrandfatherwasfromBeirutmymomsdad
andInevermethim;hepassedbeforeIwasbornandIdontthinkheidentifiedasArabeither,
becausehewasJewish.ThatswhatIwastold,isthatbecausehewasJewish,hedidntidentify
asArab.NowobviouslythereareArabJews,but
Trish:WhetherhewasMizrahiornot
Nia:MyunderstandingisthatheidentifiedasSephardic,butthatcouldalsobeforinternalized
racismreasons.Idontreallyknow;Icanttalktohimandfindout.
Trish:Becausethisisthething,youknow.LebanonisacreationofEuropeintermsoftaking
theoldprovinceoftheoldOttomanEmpire,expandingit,kindofconstructingLebanon.The
FrenchhadaroleintermsofempoweringtheChristianminorityofMountLebanontohavethis
greaterterritorial[control]butyouknow,thencreatedasituationwhereintheywerea
minorityandbemoanedthat.
Nia:Yeah.Ifeellikemaybeweshouldgivealittlebackgroundforfolksthatarentfamiliarwith
likeNotthatIamanykindofexpertonLebanesehistory,butLebanonhasareallyinteresting
politicalsystemwheretheParliamentisdividedupbetweenMaroniteChristians,nonMaronite
Christians,andMuslimswhichIthinkIbelievewassetupduringcolonialism,andasyousaid,
empoweredareligiousminoritytoexertadisproportionateamountofcontroloverthepolitical
systemthere.

Trish:Mmhmmm.
Nia:Whichitseemslikehasbeenabigreasonforsomuchoftheinstabilitysincecolonialism?
Trish:Yeah.YouaskedaboutmyownidentificationasArabandIpoliticizedaroundcertain
typesofantiimperialistworkthatwashappeninginmylateteensandearlytwenties,butdidso
withouthavinganArabcommunitythatIwasparticipatingin,andIthinkitwasreally
strugglingwiththeideathatsomepeopleseemedtohave,thatIcouldntbetransandbeArab,
thatsortmepropelledintothinkingmoreaboutmyArabness.Ihadfeltitmoreasalackinmy
life,butIdidnt,youknowIwasinvolvedinasmallqueerofcolorcommunityinMontrealin
themid90sasIwasbeginningtotransition.ThenImovedtoTorontoandgotaninvolvedina
transcommunitythatwaslargelysexworkerledandledbypoorfolksbutnotnecessarily
racializedpoorfolks,likeitwasaradicalizedcommunitythatsortofledmeinonedirectionin
termsofthinkingabouttheradicalizationoftranspoliticsbutyouknow,again,myconnection
withotherArabswaslargelythroughmeetingpeoplewhileIwasingraduateschoolatYorkand
entering,gettingtoknowotherqueerArabsandfinallyfeelingsomekindofracialandsexual
solidaritythere.
Soholdingallofthepiecestogetheratoncehasneverreallyhappened,andIthinkthattheres
theidentitypiece,andthentheresthecommitmentthatthatmay,orthepossibilitythatthatmay
leadtoengagingwithinaculturalhistoryandthequestionofhowthatplaysoutintermsof
whetheroneisengagedwiththesituationwiththePalestiniansandwhetheroneisopposedtothe
warinIraq.IthinkthatmyconnectiontoapoliticizedArabidentityhashappenedinfragments
andinpartsandinsituationsthathavebeencompellingformepartlybecauseofidentityand
historyandpartlybecauseoneneedstoact,right?
Yeah,soIthinkabouthowtolearnfromahistoryofantiArabracism,Ithinkabouthowto
connectwithmyownfamilyshistoryandtakesomeresponsibilityforitbecausetheMaronites
arepositionedveryproblematicallyandviolentlyvisvisPalestinianpeopleinLebanon,[and]
atthesametime,howtohaveeverydayrelationshipswithmyownfamilywhoIdontknowso
well,havingmovedawaywhenIwasseventeen.Soyeah,Idontknow.Doesthatgettoyour
questionatall?
Nia:Idontevenrememberwhatmyquestionwas.[laughing)]
Trish:Yourquestionwas,youknow,ifmydadpassedwhenIwasseven,howdoI?
Nia:Right.
Trish:Iwouldsay,inpieces.Infragments.Inrelationships,friends,lovers,teachers.

Nia:Yeah.
Trish:Alotofbooks.
Nia:WhatwasQPOCcommunityinMontrealintheninetieslike?
Trish:ItwasbasicallylikegossipandhangingoutandfiguringoutwhatitmeanttobePOCina
momentwhereitwaskindofanantiidentitarianmomentwithinartandtheoryanddiscourse,
politicaltheoryaroundidentity.Thewholethingaboutqueeratthattimewasantiidentitarian
insomesense,andatthesametime,itwasclearthatqueerwasverywhiteandthatweboth
neededandweresortofpushingupagainstthewayinwhichracialexclusionworked.Soneeded
identityandpushedagainstit,butalsopushingagainstthewaysinwhichracialtokenizing
happened,thewaysinwhich,inaQuebeccontext,youknowongoingscandalsaround,really
Islamophobia,aroundpeoplewearingtheveilinapublicplace,basicallytherewereanumberof
incidentswhichwereprecursorstothekindofbroadercrisesthathavehappenedpost9/11
whereinCanadiansocietyandQuebecsocietyhavefeltentitledtodemonstratetheir
Islamophobiainanexplicitwayratherthaninveiledways.
Nia:SohowdidyoubecomeinvolvedinorganizingagainsttheIsraeliapartheid?
Trish:Soin2006,IsraelandtheSpringinvadedSouthLebanon,andorratherGazaandthen
shortlythereafter,SouthLebanon.Atthattime,theOutgameswerescheduledtohappenin
Montreal,whichiswhereIwaslivingatthatpoint.Idbeeninvolvedwitheventsorganized
aroundopposingtheinvasionofSouthLebanonmadeofprimarilyArabwriters,fundraising
events,thosesortsofthings.Andthatwasjustabouttryingtochallengeimperialisminthat
context.ButIhadalsohadahistoryofworkingwiththelabormovementaroundqueerandtrans
rightsandspecificallytryingtopushfortradeunionsolidaritywithsexworkers.
SoIdbeeninvitedtospeakattheLaborConferenceoftheWorldOutgames,whichispartofa
largerHumanRightsConferenceattheWorldOutgames,whichwashappeninginMontreal.
AndbecauseIwasatthisconference,doingthatpoliticalwork,Iwasmadeawarethatthe
delegationfromLebanontotheHumanRightsConferencewasntabletoattendbecausethey
hadopenedtheirofficestorefugeesbecauseBeirutbeingbombedandthingswerehellish,and
theywerebasicallyattendingtotheirownsurvivalandsurvivalofpeopleinLebanonatthat
time.
Simultaneously,IsraelwaspreparingforWorldPride,andofcourse,Palestinianswereprobably
theonlypeopleintheworldwhocouldnotparticipateinWorldPrideintheory,becauseofthe
checkpointsystemandbecauseoftheincreasedintensityofoccupationasIsraelpositioneditself
fortheandwell,someoftheinitialmovesofthepinkwashingcampaignthathasbeengoingon
forsometime,really.ButWorldPridewasverymuchacapstonewithinthat.

SoHelemsentavideo,ratherthanadelegation,totheMontrealConferenceandtheybasically
askedforsolidarityandforacondemnationofIsraelapartheid.Again,theydidntusetheword
apartheid,buttheoccupationandtheviolenceinLebanonresultingfromtheIsraeliinvasion,
andtheyaskedtheInternationalHumanRightsConferenceassociatedwiththeOutgamesto
issueastatementcondemningtheoccupationofPalestineandillegalwarinLebanon.Sothere
wasorganizingwithintheLaborsectionofthatHumanRightsConferencetotrytohavethat
condemnationmakeitswayintothedeclarationofthatHumanRightsConference.Itmadeit
throughLaborbutnotintotheeventualdeclaration.Therewereavarietyofwaysinwhich,in
thecontextofthatconference,itbecameapparenttomethatratherthanIsraelpromotingitselfas
ahavenforgaysandlesbiansinawaythatwasincidentaltotheiroccupation,thatthatwas
actuallyacentralideologicalstrategy.Thiswas2006,sowedidnthavealotoforganizingor
discoursearoundthatatthatpoint.
Soitbecameimportanttometobegindoingculturalworkwithotherpeoplewhowerethinking
aboutcallingattentiontowhatwewouldcallIsraeliapartheidmaybeayearlater.Maybethat
yearwaswhenPalestiniancivilsocietyissuedacalltostartthinkingaboutitasanapartheid
system.SoIbecameinvolvedwithorganizingeffortsaroundcallingattentiontothat.Iwasstill
basedinMontreal,butIwasinvitedtocomespeakatsomeoftheeventsorganizedbyQuAIA
hereinToronto,whichisQueersAgainstIsraeliApartheid,andIstarteddoingagainsortof
culturalworkcallingattentiontothat.BythatImeanpoetry,givingtalks,lectures,thattypeof
thing,tryingtoputtogetherananalysis.ItbecameinsomewayseasieronceJasbirPaursbook
cameout
Nia:TerroristAssemblages?
Trish:TerroristAssemblages.SomeofherideascirculatedinSocialTextalready.Butthere
startedbeingalegibleacademicdiscoursethatcorrespondedtothekindofworkthatpeople
weredoingallover,challengingpinkwashinginvariousways.Andthenlaterdoingworkhere
therewasagroupatConcordiawhereweweretryingtogettouniversitytodivestsotryingto
contributetodivestmentcampaigns,thissortofthing.
Nia:Howdidyoubecomeinvolvedinlabororganizing?Andthenhowdidyougetfromthereto
organizingsexworkers?
Trish:Well,IwouldneversayIorganizedsexworkersbecause
Nia:Okay.
Trish:theleadershiphasreallybeenfromsexworkers.Thebigfailingonthepartoflaboris
thatitneveractuallymetitscommitmentstosexworkers,atleastinthiscountry.ImeanGMH
GMBratherthebiglaborunionintheUK,organizedsexworkersandofcoursetheresthe
DMSCintheIndiansubcontinent.Sotheressexworkerunions,butaround2000Iwasa
TeachingAssistantatYorkUniversityandItalkedtofolksinthewomenscaucusbecausewe
werecomingupforbargainingaroundthequestionofdoingsomeworkaroundtranspeoples

medicalcoverage,tryingtogetlanguagearoundrecognizingpeoplesselfidentificationtoboth
ourbylawsandtheCA,sortofthing.
Nia:CA?
Trish:Collectiveagreement.
Nia:Okay.
Trish:Throughothercontexts,IwasawarethattheCanadianLaborCongresshadrecentlyhada
LGBTQconferenceandthattransissueshadbeenraisedbutthatthingsdidntreallygo
anywhere,soIbecameinterestedinthequestionofhowtoactuallyhelppushforwardthework
thathadhappenedatthatnationallevelthroughmyunionlocal.
Nia:Youwereinatradeunion?
Trish:Yeah,theTAsatYorkUniversity,whereIdidmyPhD,wewereunionized.Andwewere
arelativelypoliticallymilitantunion.WebroughtforwardmotionsaroundPalestiniansolidarity
in2000,2001,andhadsomesuccesswithgettingsomeofthempassed,[had]somesupportfrom
theOntarioDivisionlevelofourunion,CUPE,theCanadianUnionofPublicEmployees.
Wealsobroughtforthresolutionsatournationalconvention,whichIbelievewas2001,arounda
rangeoftransrightsissuesinunioneducation,representationonthenationalLGBTequitybody
thathadjustlesbiansandgays,soweaddedtransseats,butwealsopushedandsuccessfully
passedaresolutioncommittingouruniontoworkingtowards,withsexworkers,towardsthe
decriminalizationofsexworkinCanada.AndhowdidIgettothat?MirhaSoleilRoss,whoset
uptheMealTransprograminToronto,aMtissexworker,sexworkersrightsadvocate.
Nia:MealTrans?
Trish:MealTrans.Imtoldthatitmaybeabouttogettheaxe,butitwasaserviceprovidedby
the519CommunityCenter,whichisaLGBTcommunitycenter,anditwasbasicallyaMonday
nightmealforstreetactiveandlowincometranspeople.SoMirha,withXanthraPhillipa,whos
abrilliantzinesterandartistandwriterandradiopersonsheusedtohostashowPsychopathia
TranssexualisbackintheninetiesinTorontoXanthra,Mirha,TinaStrang,abunchoffolks,
wereinvolvedindelivering,atthe519,thismeal.Basicallytherewouldusuallybesomekindof
socialactivity.Soitwasbasicallyjustaplaceforpeopletohangoutandtalkandfigureouthow
tochangepapers,howtodomakeup,howpoliticaldiscoursewithoutgoingtoschool.
SoMirhahadgivenacourseatthe519[in]96,97,whichwasreallythefirstencounterIhad
withsomethingthatmighttodaypassastransstudies,butbasicallyshesanautodidact.Shes
selftaughtandshehadamassivearchiveandshebasicallytookusthroughthepressingpolitical
issuesfacingtranspeople,theerasureoftranspeople,thecriminalizationofsexwork,
HIV/AIDS,thewaysinwhichracializedtranspeoplearedifferentlypositionedvisvissocial

order,thedisappearanceoftranspeoplethroughfamiliesinsistinguponbeingburiedintheir
birthnames,theprosandconsofmedicalization,theclassdimensionsofpeoplewhowantedto
demedicalizetranssexualitybecauseitinvolvedyouknow?
SoanywayMirhaisageniusandwasapoliticaleducatorforme.Sheandanumberofother
folksVivianeNamaste,whoisnowatConcordiaUniversityandhasbeenthereforsometime
didalotofworkthinkingaboutthewayinwhichtranspeopleandsexworkwouldnotbenefit
particularlyfromthepassageofhumanrightslaws,orhatecrimelawsthatalongwithpeople
likeMonicaForrester,whoyoushoulddefinitelytalkto,theydevelopedananalysis,sayingthat
reallythemostpressingthingforsexworktobedecriminalizedandforserviceindustriestosort
ofbackofffromtheirexitprogramsandtheirserviceprovisionsfortranspeopleandforsex
workandinsteadsupporttheselforganizingoftranspeopleinsexwork.
WhileIwasdoingorganizingwithCUPEaroundtransrights,itseemedobviousthatthetrans
peoplewhoneededthesupportofbigunionsmorethananyoneelsewerenotthetranspeoplein
gradschoolorfranklywhohadjobswiththeTorontodistrictschoolboard.Itwasfolkswhose
workwasnotrecognizedaslegitimateworkandwhoconsequentlyfacedawiderangeof
institutionalerasure,alackofaccesstoservices.Itriedto,workingwithotherpeopleinmy
union,triedtogetCUPEtocommittosupportingbothdecriminalizationandtheunionizationof
sexworkers.
IworkedwiththeCanadianGuildforEroticLabour,talkedtoMirhaandTinaStrang,whoboth
workedatMealTransatdifferenttimes,talkedtoarangeofdifferentsexworkers,andbrought
insomefolkswhoweresexworkersoradvocatestodoeducationwithintheunionsectortotry
togettheunionsonboard.Aresolutionwaspassed.Ournationalequitybody,whichIendedup
onasatransrep,starteddoingtheworktotrytogetunionleadershiptoactuallydotheworkof
committingtodecriminalizingsexworkinCanada.Someunionleadersgotonboardandmade
somecommentsinthemedia,whichthenofcoursethemediaseizedupon,andourleadership
backpedaledinabigway.Butittookthreeorfouryearsforittobeapparentthattheywere
backpedallingbecausetheyjustbasicallystalled.
SoIwasworkingwithsexworkers,orsexworkeradvocates,aroundtryingtogetbiglaboron
boardwiththedecriminalizationmovementintheearly2000s.Thatstheworkalongwith
developingtransrepresentationwithinourunionequitybodiesandourcollectiveagreement,
whichbasicallystartedhavingsomeprovisionsfortranspeoplethatlandedmeinMontrealin
thisconferenceonlesbianandgaybiandtransrightswithinahumanrightsumbrella,theWorld
OutHumanGamesConference.Iwasprobablysupposedtobetheretosaysomething
celebratoryandlaudatoryabouthowawesomelaborhadbeenfortranspeople,andIdidtryto
givefairplaytowhathadgoneright,butImostlyusedthatoccasiontobitchaboutthewayin
whichsexworkersrightshadfallenofftheplatformofboththeCanadianLaborCongressand
CUPE.AndtotrytofigureouthowtosupportfolksinHelem,whowerentabletobethere,to
trytoadvocateforlabortostepupinrelationshiptothissituation.

Nia:Okay,soyouhavealonghistoryoforganizing,thislonghistoryofculturalproductionand
writingwhatisthethingthatyouaremostproudofthatyouvedoneinyourartisticand/or
activistcareer?
Trish:IthinkthateventhoughthingsdidntworkoutwithCUPE,thedecriminalization
passingthatresolutionwasabigdeal.IthinkWantinginArabiclikeIhadneverreadabook
ofpoetrybyanothertransperson.Ihadneverencounteredanywritingbyanybodywhowas
transandArab.IdstruggledtofindotherqueerArabs,right?SoIfeelliketryingtofindaway
tofindalanguagethatmightspeaktootherpeoplewhoaretrans,transandArab,queerand
Arab,anddosoinawaythatwaspoliticallyactivatinginrelationshiptovarioustypesof
oppressivefuckedupshit,butalsoenliveningIthinkIamproudofthatbookforallthatithas
manyflaws,asanykindofworkdoes.
Nia:(laughing)Sorry,Iwaslike,Weredoingsogooduntilyouthrewintheselfdeprecation
attheend.
Trish:Ithinkitsimportantwork,andwejusthadthisconference,welltwoconferences,
WritingTransGenres,andDecolonizingandDecriminalizingTransGenresinWinnipeg,which
weretransliteratureconferences.Well,thefirstwasaliteratureconference.Thesecondwasa
conferencearoundthinkingtheimportanceofculturetodecolonizationanddecriminalizationfor
transpeople.Bothofthosearehighlyflawed,too,butIthinktheyimportantlyconvenedalotof
peopletothinkandmoveforwardworkoncreatingaliteraturefortranspeople,transPOC
centeredinmanyways.Experimentalinmanyways.Claiminganentitlementto
experimentation,toawiderangeofpolitics,butpoliticallyradicalpoliticsarounddecolonization
anddecriminalization.So,[Im]prettyhappyaboutthattoo.
TranscribedbyWeilyLang