N6378269 Design and research DEB701 Received May 2010
knowledge and disposition of the general
Brisbane
Sustainability Status
2010
Gavan Stilgoe
Faculty of Built Environment
and Engineering, Queensland
University of Technology,
Brisbane, Australia
_____________________________________
_____________________________________
________
Abstract: This study informs how a small
group of Brisbane Landscape Architects as the
drivers of sustainable processes and
technologies perceive the current ‘green’
trend, and how they apply and employ
sustainable design in response to the
Climate, sustainability & Australia
“Temperature rise has accelerated in recent decades.
The earth’s temperature is now 0.8 degrees Celsius
higher than it was in the first decade of the twentieth social and political age. The Australian climate itself
century, and two-thirds of that increase has taken place provides evidence for this view, figure 2.
since 1970” (WSUD.org, 2009), figure 1.
Figure 1. Global temperature increase
N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701
public. This qualitative research study was
conducted via a series of semi-structured in-
depth interviews with three landscape
Architects in Brisbane, and through them
addresses the general perceptions of the broad
public whom the participants interact with. As
such, it further identifies the state of
sustainable awareness and support within the
local and national climate. This report outlines
relevant research and technologies present
within Australia, their relationship to
sustainability, the landscape industry, and the
use of these within the Brisbane corporate
environment. Overall it seeks to inform future
studies into the relevant areas for
development, target audiences for
sustainability, and general mapping of the
extent of Brisbane’s sustainability status.
Key Words: Sustainability, green, Brisbane,
knowledge,landscape, technologies, trends,
perceived benefits
_____________________________________
_____________________________________
________
Sc: (ww.earthpolicy.org/index.php?/indicators/C51/global_temperature_2010)
Statements such as this are the hot topic in the current
Figure 2. Australian temperature increase
Sc: www.bom.gov.au/announcements/media_releases/climate/change
Sheppard (2005) provides research from other studies
which evidence that climate change and its impacts on
society and the environment have become generally The appeal of ‘Green’
accepted by scientists, along with the importance of
mitigating and adapting to climate change. Despite There is a wide range of support of green initiatives
this, public awareness, behavioural change, and policy within new buildings. The ‘green star rating’ is a prime
changes are lagging behind (Sheppard, 2005), and example of this, and is highly complied with and
hence we draw the conclusion that behavioural change sought after, not only as a marketing tool, but as studies
is a large force when directing changes in attitude and have confirmed (Kozlowski, 2003) to decrease
acceptance in an issue such as sustainability. In resource costs and heighten the health of occupants.
response to this increasing social and global issue, Within housing developments, trends and popularity
within Australia, the government has produced show that users seek to have ‘green’ and ‘eco’ attached
guidelines and technical manuals specifically for to their developments to appeal to the market, and
sustainable design and retrofitting available to the create an ‘edge’, such as the Currumbin eco village on
general public (www.yourhom.gov.au). The CSIRO the Gold coast, and others. Despite this, there is a noted
has conducted recent studies in major Australian cities acknowledgement globally that environmental and
to understand public perceptions towards climate lifestyle issues are driving Cities, their users and
change science, and low emission energy technologies planners away from negative uses of space, towards
(Ashworth, 2009). And specifically in Queensland, smart, or sustainable growth (Hayhurst, 2010).
the QLD Water and Energy Sustainable Technologies
Network [QWEST] conducts regular forums to where
sustainable technologies and initiatives are presented Green roofs are often seen as a very trendy,
to local businesses and corporations (DERM, 2010). It aesthetically appealing, and ‘whizz bang’ side of
is evident that the local governments and large sustainability, yet despite the great potential ability of
corporate bodies of Queensland Australia are aware of Australian flora to provide for green roof
sustainable design technologies, and are seeking to environments, Australia has been slow to adopt green
push these endeavours forward. Despite these efforts, roofs in comparison to other developed countries
there is a general evident lack of translation between (Williams, 2010). Despite this, there is a broad
sustainable technologies and public knowledge coverage of the abilities of green roofs to be
amongst the general public and corporate bodies sustainable, and reliable on the global scale. Typically,
(Ashworth, 2009; Sheppard, 2005; Williams, 2010) they have been proved to provide and heighten
not just in Australia, but globally, (Yang, 2008) with biodiversity and habitats (Brenneisen, 2006), limit
reference to landscape practice and its opportunities tostorm water runoff (VanWoert, 2005; Carter, 2007) and
offset unsustainable design. improve the quality of rooftop runoff (Berndtsson,
2006). And probably most importantly, Green roofs
What is less clear or sparsely covered in local studies have been found to produce greater energy efficiency
within Australia is how the drivers of these through heating and cooling costs, (Sailor 2008). Major
technologies and resources seek to implement barriers to the implementation of green roofs in
sustainable practice within design, and the particular, Australia, are the lack of market interest, and therefore
local barriers they face. Therefore, this study informs endemic and climate tolerant planting research, and
how a small group of Brisbane Landscape Architects as roof performance research lags behind (Williams,
one of those key drivers perceive the current ‘green’ 2010) preventing national interest and cost viability.
trend, and how they apply and employ sustainable
design in response to the knowledge and disposition of What is less clear in Australian studies is if the
the general public. knowledge and potential of the Australian flora to
perform is understood in the designer, and public
This study also addresses the general perceptions of realm, and if or how they implement this knowledge in
the broad public whom the participants interacts with, Australia – which this study somewhat addresses.
and identifies the state of sustainable awareness and
support within the local, and national climate of
Brisbane.
Challenges to the sustainable urban environment

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

Despite the trend towards green infrastructure, and interviews lasting from 45 minutes to 1 hour. The
especially homes and building designs, implementing following key areas where covered:
sustainable initiatives within the urban environment,
most designers face a large obstacle, which is cost, and • Key factors in selection of landscape (architecture)
whether the need to do so is legitimate. Utilizing form, functionality & appearance
resources such as water and its recycling and • Knowledge of sustainable initiatives, designs &
management is difficult; as processes universally used technologies
to manage water are typically the most short term
viable options. To combat this stance, there are many • Perceived benefits, costs & disadvantages of
companies and government agencies which research sustainable initiatives
and develop technologies and processes within
Australia to produce viable options and research for Transcripts of the responses were recorded and
water management locally. These include; the Water analysed using a thematic approach, initially
Sensitive Urban Design organization, CSIRO’s identifying responses into patterns, sub themes, and
Creating Water Smart City Systems, The Cooperative then themes (Aronson, J. 1994).
Research Centre for Water Quality and Treatment, E-
water Cooperative Research Centre, the Facility for
Advancing Water Biofiltration (FAWB), the University
of New South Wales Water Research Laboratory
(WRL), the University of New South Wales’ Water Research findings
Research Centre, and The National Urban Water
Governance Program (NUWGP). The landscape architects

Despite the difficulty of the new (somewhat unproven
in the long term) technologies, and harsh Australian
climate, there is research and technology options
available which present sustainable means of design in
Australia, and Brisbane. What has limited coverage in
the Brisbane area is if knowledge of these options are
viewed by the corporate bodies which control the
developments of our infrastructure and built form –
which this study also seeks to shed light on.
Methodology
Upon analysing the data, there came about several
themes which where common to all the participants
responses, covering the present state of sustainability in
their practice, and the future.
Participants where all aware of the benefits of
sustainable landscape and infrastructure; be it social,
environmental, resource, or economic, and
endeavoured in every way to implement this behaviour
where possible in their practicing. They described the
environmental and economic benefits related to
sustainable or green design, yet often explained that
many preferable green options and processes often
consumed more time and hence more money, making
up a large barrier to that practice being truly
implemented.

The target population for the project was 3 landscape

architects working and living within Brisbane, Their knowledge of sustainable technologies varied,
Australia. Potential interviewees where contacted (via with most participants holding an understanding of
email and phone) and invited to participate in an in government agencies information, and corporations
depth face-to-face interview exploring sustainability which deal with sustainable technologies.
and its application in their own work, and broadly in
how they implement it in response to their clients, and
the landscape of Brisbane itself. The study comprised
two females which worked within a large corporate The future is sustainable
global body, and one male in a smaller landscape
All of the participants were of the opinion that
practice, with an office of about 12 workers. Standard,
sustainability as a broad, all encompassing approach is
good practice interview and ethical protocols where
definitely on the horizon, but movement towards this
followed, with the semi structured discussion format

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

goal may be slow, and difficult to reach in a faithful compared to pragmatic, general design without the
manner. implementation of any reuse, recycle or recover
approaches.

There was a noted theme of misunderstanding of the

Brisbane sustainability technologies and process that sustainable design
actually entails amongst the public:
The state of Brisbane’s sustainability status was of
divided opinions. There was a feeling of apprehension A common factor with all of them, not just
towards corporate bodies, councils and authorities fully corporate, but also govt agencies, the common
backing such design concepts, and that a true theme is a lack of understanding in what on earth
understanding of green technologies was not common sustainability means, in the context of their
to the broad spectrum. There was also a feeling of the project, to them.
local council, and other corporations in Brisbane
seeking to really move this attitude of green into the Common to all participants where the understanding
workings of its outcomes rapidly, yet perhaps are still that clients who are not personally disposed towards
finding their feet. sustainability, see it as an ‘option’ and design solution,
rather than an all inclusive attitude or method of
The design drivers of Brisbane are more or less striving approach. There was a very strong sense that clients
to implement sustainable practice, but face barriers are not aware at all of many of the technologies and
which limit the extent to which this can be processes which government agencies and corporate
implemented: bodies employ.
 Misconceptions: as to what sustainability is

 Cost: at present there is less demand for
sustainable design, hence market value of these
technologies and materials are quite costly
 Information knowledge bank: there is a lack of yet still in a transition, or play mode with the concept:
ready data and contacts for green initiatives
 Developing market: nobody wants to take the
first step in green directions in the corporate
world, as cost is often the major obstacle.
Sustainability as playtime, yes or no?
It was recognised by all participants that society,
locally and globally are on the way to a green future,
I mean, it’s got to happen, and its gunna get
there eventually, but we are just in this phase.
We have done a number of projects that claim to
be sustainable, but really, all of these things are
just a face, they are way outside of what is going
to be sustainable in the long term and yet, they
are getting ‘Key offs’ for being sustainable.

Another participant stated that their “involvement

with clients and the sustainability agenda goes way
back, and long before it became a political football”.
Are the public on board?
The presence of companies and individuals simply
The general corporate bodies which all of the employing sustainable technologies, or tacking on
participants were largely involved with showed terms to cash in on the lifestyle choice of eco-living
feelings of interest in sustainability to the extent of a was evident in most corporate bodies:
marketing edge, or cost/value effective outcomes, with
Use of green design, environmental codes,
only a limited number of certain individuals employing
sustainable marketing, is often used simply to
and allowing the specification of sustainable
distinguish business from others, rather than
endeavours as a personal exploration, or what they felt
being a ‘choice response’ to what is good for
as ‘the right thing to do’. The cost of sustainable
society.
methods and results of design were seen by both
participants, and their clients as generally costing more, Breaking down the barriers
whether it be time, money, resources and such,

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

Government policy and behavioural change are given or sustainability into concrete solutions, enabling
as two primary solutions to the green wash and ‘play’ greater education of clients and hence the presence of
with sustainability which occurs within corporate and sustainable options that are unseen are present and
political adventures: workable. Tools such as these, and the advertisement
and knowledge of such are required to produce a
The lack of comprehensive policy cross the sustainability language that can be understood and
board from federal I believe is something that translated easily.
will hinder true progression, because nobody
will take the first step... [However], the policy
needs to be well considered, and tested.
Awareness of the potential for Australian Flora, and
Participants reponses concluded that a holistic its applications not only to green roofs, but other
approach to sustainability must be adopted, and there landscape functions also is in need of better awareness
was no, single answer to re-direct the barriers to for both designers and public. Participants all
green design. Common solutions offered where: described green roofs as being very cost expensive,
and very difficult to make work properly. Endeavours
 Market changes and direction such as exhibition pieces, example landscapes with
such technologies can create interest, and with interest
 Public behavioural change
market potential, and hence opportunities to grow the
 Comprehensive, tested government policy resources needed to create a cost viable option.
Designers inching their way towards these goals will
 Better knowledge and education also develop a new market sooner and in a more
effective manner.
 Showcase examples advertised and aligned
with other developments Along with these technologies, the study found that
availability of this research needs to be readily
available, as time was a huge factor in the
accomplishment of sustainable practice. The most
Discussion
difficult part of sustainable design is keeping up to
Tools for presenting sustainability date with research, and seeking to implement new
ideas and process within those materials or designs in
There is a noted difficulty in relating to clients what Brisbane.
sustainability means for each detailed project. This
difficulty was noted to be resultant because there is a Coinciding with this, the study found that the drivers
misaligned understanding within the general population of sustainability in Brisbane where aware of broader
that sustainability is about large, expensive sustainable technologies and corporations and
technologies, which do indicate large costs. Indicating agencies, but as the lack of exposure and market
that sustainability can be smart, and cost effective is buoyancy, these options where often bypassed.
difficult to overcome:

Unfortunately most people associate

In summary, cost was found to be the biggest barrier
sustainability to a wind turbine on a building...
to sustainable options becoming widespread. Not only
Which is why all of the mechanisms that have
is it stated to be more expensive or time consuming
been brought along over the last 10 or so years
than simple pragmatic design, but that the public see
to try and map sustainability in projects, they
sustainable options as always going to cost more, or
are all about evaluating under headings what
be more difficult to employ. The study found that the
those things mean, and actually providing
issues can be overcome by better advertisement of
measures.
technologies and mapping tools to designers and the
Such measures have been developed by companies public. Market changes and re-direction will occur
such as ARUPtm using the SPEAR® acronym; when the knowledge and use of sustainable
Sustainable Project Appraisal Routine. Measures technologies is increased, lowering the cost, and
enable tangible translation between a concept of green hence barriers to green initiatives.

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

 such as Ashworth’s study: Perceptions of low emission
energy technologies: Results from a Brisbane large
Sustainability Status group workshop (2009). Overall, the result of the study
which focuses on the drivers of delivered sustainable
Brisbane’s sustainability status does appear to be
technologies and processes related to landscape,
booting up slowly, and with the presence of
produce avenues of further exploration which will
government agencies appearing to begin leading the
further define and reshape the state of Brisbane and its
way, this progression can be forecast to grow in the
sustainable life.
coming years. One of the two major problems facing
sustainable progression in Brisbane besides cost is the
lack of behavioural change. Sheppard (2005) presents
valid responses to changing sustainability focus, in his
study: Landscape visualisation and climate change:
the potential for influencing perceptions and
behaviour. He describes the need of landscapes to
visually describe the effects of a changing climate, and
the need to display imagery that depicts changes in
modes of occupation due to human intervention, which
will enable behavioural change.
Aligned to this approach, participants of the study
indicated that promoting awareness of resource origins,
changing climates, effects of occupation and use; will
hopefully educate the public that sustainable options
are not only multi-faceted, but also viable. Designers
understanding and employing the tool of imagery not
just in the theoretical, but also constructed urban form
should not simply to inform or engage emotionally, but
can also to influence people’s behaviour, as in
advertising and public service health announcements.
Community-based social marketing using techniques
such as landscape visualisation, and constructed works
have proved effective in bringing about behaviour
change (McKenzie, 1999; Kollmuss, 2002).These
approaches and implementations are recommendable to
help hurry along the movement in the application of
sustainability in Brisbane.

The target audiences that require greater sustainable

education are undeniably corporate bodies. A means
whereby this can be attained is by comprehensive
legislation of sustainable design, enabling forced
research, and awareness of the technologies, processes
and domains which have the information.

The limitations of this exploratory qualitative research

study must be acknowledged, with further qualitative
and quantitative research needed to develop an
understanding of the status of Brisbane and its state.
Three Landscape Architects within the large city of
Brisbane are not an indicative field of which justified
conclusions be drawn. However, the study does
indicate areas of silent research, and develops themes
and conclusions which coincide with similar studies,

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

 Kollmuss, A., Agyeman, J. (2002). Mind the gap: why
Cited Material: do people act environmentally and what are the barriers
to pro-environment behaviour? Environ. Educ. Res. 8
Aronson, J. (1994). A Pragmatic View of Thematic (3), 239–260.
Analysis The Qualitative Report, Volume 2, Number 1,
Spring, 1994. Hayhurst, C. (2010). Green by design. Career World.
April/May 2010
Ashworth, P., et al. (2009). Perceptions of low
emission energy technologies: Results from a Brisbane McKenzie-Mohr, D., Smith, W. (1999). Fostering
large group workshop. CSIRO. P2009/960 June 2009. Sustainable Behavior: An Introduction to Community-
Based Social Marketing. New Society Publishers,
Belinda Yuen, B., et al. (2004). Gabriola Island, Canada.
Resident perceptions and expectations of rooftop
gardens in Singapore. Landscape and Urban Planning. Sailor, D.J. (2008). A green roof model for building
Vol 73, p 263–276. energy simulation programs. Energy and Buildings 40,
1466–1478.
Berndtsson, J.C., Emilsson, T., Bengtsson, L. (2006).
The influence of extensive vegetated roofs on runoff Sheppard, Stephen R.J. (2005). Landscape visualisation
water quality. Science of the Total Environment 355, and climate change: the potential for influencing
48–63. perceptions and behaviour. Environmental Science &
Policy. Vol 8, p 637–654.
Brenneisen, S. (2006). Space for urban wildlife:
designing green roofs as habitats in Switzerland. VanWoert, N.D., Rowe, D.B., Andresen, J.A., Rugh,
Urban Habitats Vol. 4, P. 27–36. C.L., Fernandez, R.T., Xiao, L. (2005). Green roof
stormwater retention: effects of roof surface, slope, and
Carter, T., Fowler, L. (2008). Establishing green roof media depth. Journal of Environmental Quality 34,
infrastructure through environmental policy 1036–1044.
instruments. Environmental Management 42, 151–164.

DERM. (2010). Current and future QWEST activities. Williams, N., et al. (2010). Green roofs for a wide
Retrieved 5th, 24th, 2010 from Queensland Government, brown land: Opportunities and barriers for rooftop
Department of Environment and Resource greening in Australia. Urban Forestry and Urban
Management: Greening Vol. 3, 2010.01.005.
http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/environmental_manageme
nt/sustainability/industry/qwestnet_queensland_water_ WSUD.org. (2009). Climate Change. Retrieved 5th
and_energy_sustainable_technologies_network/previou 24th, 2010, from Water Sensitive Urban Design:
s_forums/february_2008_hvac.html http://www.wsud.org/climate-change/

Yang, J., et al. (2008). Quantifying air pollution

Kozlowski, D. (2003). Green gains: Where sustainable removal by green roofs in Chicago. Atmospheric
design stands now. Building Operating Management; Environment. Vol. 42 p. 7266–7273.
Jul 2003; 50, 7; p. 26-32.

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

APPENDIX
.
 Transcripts

 Study consent forms (please find in hard copy at assignment minder).

Interview 1: Small office Landscape Architect

G: So, what is your opinion about sustainability?

The reality is, it’s the its very expensive to make it work properly, so I think that people
just approaching it from an economic basis first, and that “green wash” gives that some
economic advantage – Potential, economic advantage.

But I really struggle with the value of green walls to be honest, I mean, unless they are
used as an air conditioning type of situations. But you know, a green wall in King George
square, it’s simply taking a garden from the horizontal, and placing it on the vertical,
you know, its probably the least sustainable thing you can have going, you know, that’s
a croc.

G: I suppose what I have looked into a little bit as well, is um, things like geo
thermal sustainability, where you have thermal mass under the ground, which is
quite cool, channelling water through into those sections, and cooling the building
with those situations. Running of this water through the exterior walls. Which I’ve
read, is a lot more cost effective than the “showey” green walls.

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

And we are a long way from getting involved things like that, I’ve never heard of things
like that even being suggested. And we’ve suggested a proposal in far north
Queensland, where, they have water running through the site, and we were to tap it off,
and run it through the furniture, and the exterior of the site, and ina sense air condition
the site. And that’s something from landscape, that the architectural use of the land can
just be plonked on. And that idea was to go ahead, but got plonked on the head. Good
idea guys, but not enough money.

G: yeah, that’s what I have been coming back to, is that the materials using in the
landscape, especially in terms of urban landscapes, unless those materials, and the
accessibility of those sustainable materials, the cost effective nature of those
things are just going to be completely out of weigh with that.

Well it will come. Well gradually as more and more people are asking for it and using it,
there will be a bigger market for it. There will be a demand for it, and people will fill that
void in terms of supply. You know, the timber stuff is starting to come, you can often
follow the material right through the source, to the fabrication of the building of the
materials - In some situations. Um, we have a client at the moment which wants us to
use recycled plastic for the furniture without using timber because they want the green
cred, you know.

G: is it credibility in terms of, in terms of clients seeking particular sustainable

practice, is that about them seeking that for their own personal use, or is that for
corporate gain?

Well, we don’t tend to deal with many that are not corporate, so most of that happens
with corporate based clients. Um, you do get the occasional, one off client that is
genuinely interested, you get some who come to Landscape architecture are usually
interested in those sorts of things. Certainly it’s the corporate clients who can afford to
talk about these things, like sustainability. I don’t know how many clients wanting green
walls we would have sketched up designs for, clients say great yes, and later down the
track, it folds.

G: How many would you say?

Well, it’s hard to say, probably twenty, over the last three or four years that have been
drawn up, sketched up at sketch stage, and they just don’t end up happening. And that

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

applies to green roofs as well as green walls. And I’m not sure of the value of green
roofs in Qld, no one has built one yet, lots of roof garden, but green roofs, I don’t think
they’ve proved they are valuable or viable, or anything yet.

G: Well, as far as the research that I have looked into in buildings, if you are to
replicate a natural forest, or the actual type off ecosystems that are required,
weight comes into play, and without having to pump massive amounts of water up
there, and massive amounts of fertilisers, and solve the problems of soil exchange
and things like that, it’s just way out of the picture.

Unless it’s a demonstration sort of a project where a major corporation, or government,

you’ve got bucklies. You end up doing concrete shelled roofs, that can carry the weight
of six or eight hundred mill of soil, and plant trees on it, and just we are really running
parklands up over roofs and burying building now, rather than building new
infrastructure. And I think that’s got to do more or less with our climate, we don’t have
to protect against the bitter cold, we just got to shield against the sun, it’s a lot easier to
do, and far more cost effective than trying to stop the cold.

G: I suppose, in terms of this firm, and you yourself and the project that your
involved in, what is the most important element to design you would say, or what
ranking would you give sustainability to the design side of view?

Well, it’s certainly climbing up the list, more than it did ten years ago, this wasn’t an
issue. But bow, certainly, the issues of where the materials are coming from, and in
terms of plant material, you know, using native endemic species, stock, is very critical
when it comes to our design, that’s where we start, with our plant selection, whereas
ten years ago that would have been way down the list. So, we start there, and if we
can’t full fill the need with local endemic species, then we’ll start to look broader. In
terms if other areas, these are all the economic sustainable issues, they are all critical,
especially social sustainability, they are first up, in many respects. I guess there are the
environmental sustainability issues, well; they are high up there, but to talk about the
use of concrete for instance? How sustainable is concrete? We continue to build with
concrete, and we are continuing to specify concrete as a pavement, like we always have
been, so I don’t think there has been any change from that [design] perspective.

G: In looking in terms of material based areas, and environmental sustainability,

increased runoff surfaces, and proximity to different water bodies, how would you
describe things?

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

Well certainly, in terms of water treatment, that’s a big area, that will come, and that is
now fundamental when if it where ten years ago we probably would have had only the
odd project were that was even considered. And now every project, in the design stage
we figure out the runoff, cuz we know it’s going to incorporate it, and we want to get
ahead of the game so that the engineer doesn’t come along and say well by the way,
you need another thousand square meters for retention basins, so we get in early
ourselves, and try to integrate it into the design.

We did a whole course last year on WSUD and did a few projects on that and had to go
into quite an intricate depth to make sure that the outcomes that you come up with are
actually be viable, and useful. So the whole water cycle, that’s pretty high on the
agenda, capturing the water, re-using water, rainwater tanks, the whole issue of
irrigation, use it or not to use it, that really high up there,

The Materials one is wobbly, use of steel aluminium, the recycling of products, we
probable aren’t where we should be with that, but ah, we just designed and involved in
the major piece of public furniture, and still made of concrete and recycled plastic, and
steel, but all of which, are recyclable materials, concrete can be crushed and taken back
to its state, the steel melted and reused, the [plastic re used, so it’s certainly in the
thinking in the stages. And we are looking at efficient use of material, construction to
limit the uses of materials.

G: How do you specify this, do you come right down to the details, like the carport
structure, designing around timber length etc like that?

Usually timber comes in lengths of 300, but we would be more concerned about where
the timber is coming from, we are trying to limit the larger sizes of timber, just because
that means larger trees that have been needed to be cut down, and used. We tend to
design with smaller sizes as a starting point.

Just thinking about steel, selection of steel, the finished products, and finish is
important, what you will use for that, in terms of timber, as a hazard rating that sort of
thing. Steel; is a problem, because the manufacturers are not really on board with what
they are producing, what they are marketing, they are starting to come online, may be
5 years before the steel you use is fully recycled or partly recycled, depending on what
you’ve got. And look, galvanising is a problem, you still have to galvanise, stainless steel
is a good option, but it’s expensive.

G: When you present options like that to the clients, do you have to convince
them? It seems to me that you are fairly forward thinking and understanding the
helpful aspects of those initiatives, and that level of design thinking, how do clients
view it, is it aligning it with a cost effective basis to move those things forward?

N6378269 Gavan Stilgoe DEB701

Well, it depends what area. Developers of built form, they are very switched on, and
they want the green star rating, and they will probable employ a specialist just for that,
and there is no argument there. But if it’s someone, doing a subdivision, no green star
rating for him. Is a really hard sell then, you would probably just do it by stealth, you
know, specify things, and just don’t tell them about it. You would try and integrate it,
and talk about it, but you wouldn’t say that this may be slightly more expensive.
Because it’s got a rating, but then you can use the argument that its political miles to
introduce these types of initiatives. So we have to really sell to the clients that what we
are doing for them, is right for them to market their product.

G: Talking about the Currumbin ecovillage, and from a Developers point of view,
developers do not have to pay for the maintenance, because the users take
ownership of the site, and they are the ones that long term, maintain it.

That’s one of the biggest issues, is maintenance. That is biggest problems with the bio
retention basins. No one really monitors them the council doesn’t know how to make
them work, or monitor them, there is a bit of research into how they work and what they
do but no one really knows what they should be doing, or not to do. This could become
like the rainwater tank issues. Like they just produce mosquitoes, and like in Brisbane
100 years ago, they all get ripped out, or 50 years, and we get rid of them. As soon as
we have an epidemic of dengi fever, there will be a whole raft of packers. But we are
doing it, we are doing it in the sense that we are smart enough to maintain them. I know
that even my neighbours have not even looked at theirs or used them, and there are
holes in the top now, and the mossies are getting in there. And now we see that there is
going to be all these problems with homeowners now and over the next twenty years,
big problems I would say. But not mine, they are your problems!

G: Hehe, definitely.

Well, looking at the directions govt has in terms of education, and how they are
implementing remote controls into housing developments across SE QLD, when
there is forecasted hot days, the remote control when the users with them to
maximum capacity, and creates spikes in the power grid, and blackouts occur.
These remotes allow the air conditioner to stay on peak load for a few minutes,
then turn back to the average settings, and the users can’t even tell the difference.

What is interesting is that there is a lot of literature, and initiatives of the

government to increase peoples knowledge about energy conservation in homes
and online, and on TV, but in terms of retrofitting people’s homes for orientation,
and western walls to be covered by vegetation, etc is not apparent. It may be with
newer home owners, and buildings, but not so much with existing spaces.

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Well really, my problem with it is that we are still in this bullshit phase. I mean, it’s got
to happen, and its gotta get there eventually, but we are just in this phase. We have
done a number of projects that claim to be sustainable, recycled water recycled sewage
and stuff, and turning to do everything right in terms of a home, but they have 3 car
spaces, 5 bedrooms, and they are building it over a gold course, all of these things are
just a face, they are way outside of what is going to be sustainable in the long term and
yet, they are getting Key offs for being sustainable.

Yeah, it’s a real face isn’t it.

So until, as a society we come to grips with waste and what we consume, all this is just
ridiculous.

G: Even the words themselves such as green, and sustainable have become I
suppose dirty words, because people just use them and their value, for a bit of a
ride, mostly publicity or economic outcomes. Most seem to be using it for face
value, and not so much looking at the tale end of the initiative, and what it is
carrying with it.

Well you know I’m still very dubious about the vertical garden scapes, and I don’t mean,
green walls, I mean growing vegetables within the buildings. Like Redland Bay for
instance, we shouldn’t be building buildings over all the great arid land. Why do that,
and then go and build a multimillion dollar building to grow plants in. You know, we are
just playing with the idea right now.

You just have to keep an eye on the rating that our river have. You know, its declining in
the last 5 years, all of it has to do with the pesticides that we use, and the storm water
runoff that we give and all that sort of thing, it matters what we do at a home level to
change these things.

G: Do you think that education of those home owners, media, news, govt
initiatives, do you think those ideas will oppose that?

I think that education is very important, and that that is occurring, even now, but those
that are about 20 have sort of missed out on that education, but those below, have got
it through the schools, and once you have the kids involved, that’s important. And
anybody who is still a consumer, anyone over 20’s, we are but going to change
anything. We are still p there with the Americans, per capita of consumerism. We
happen to be a small country, so our footprint seems smaller.

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 G Well, I don’t want to take up too much of your time, and I think it’s been really
helpful to consider all the insight you have into this field!

No worries Gavan, I have enjoyed speaking to you.

G And thanks for participating so far.

Interview 2. Landscape Architect in Brisbane

Ok, so giving a background of this company, what have you been doing?

I stated with this company straight out of uni, on residential, and then very quickly got
into the developments at North lakes, the streetscapes, and parks, and so my
background is residential design. Lately due to the current economic climate, work has

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moved away from residential to massive infrastructure projects, so that is where I am
working now.

Ok, well from that background, did you find that there was any differences
between the two reactions, and responses where to the sustainability agenda you
where trying to push?

In the beginning, they were not that responsive, cuz I t was not a priority, in looking at
sustainable options, but in more recent times, clients can see the dollar value of
sustainable design options that nit necessarily everything, but the knowledge that you
can save money through renewable energy researches and sustainable water
infrastructure, but also their market is changing, and it took a long time to change, and
then it rising rapidly, each person wants to live in a development that is sustainable,
people want a development that doesn’t just fell every single tree, but has sustainable
practice woven into it.

So yeah, I’m not sure the clients have changed, but the market has changed, which
effects what the clients want and need to comply with. Some clients did not want to go
down the sustainable path, until it became a viable cost option, it was not considered as
seriously as it is now.

So now, what do you think the key factors and priorities they will have in design?
What and how would their priorities rank with sustainability?

Well, the smaller the development projects and the larger ones are so different,

Well, as separate entities then

Well you could say with the smaller developments, its [Sustainability] is at the top, Of
course to begin they have done the figures and weeded out how much everything is
going to cost, so I think sustainability is pretty much the next one down on the list, and I
think clients want the give to develop policies that are implemented across the board,
so that they are not the only ones forking out all this money and that everybody is
mandated to do that, and then able to pass that onto the design delivery. But then in
infrastructure, sustainable design options are way down the bottom, and it takes it
longer for that to become a priority. But Govt policy is addressing green infrastructure
much more rapidly than anything else, and that is because, Brisbane gateway upgrade,
any water than does runoff that road is analysed through the Brisbane city council, who
have an environmental group, and of course the EPA and everything set up for that.
There are a lot of government policies that have been set up in green infrastructure.

They are coming at two different angles the market.

Well yes, it seems that to introduce sustainability not only as a credible thing, but
accessible, you have to make it work from the top down. So what are the key factors
that you try to implement in design?

Well, I’ve been doing a bit on infrastructure, and bit on government housing at the
moment, so the large stuff and small stuff? And, sorry what is your question?

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 What factors do you focus on for sustainability, like material sources, endemic
species, health, how are those, or others you focus on?

Ok, well it does vary from project to project, however it is very rare that we will not use
the endemic species anymore, only on the rare occasion will you have to look further,
and we have a lot of guidelines that we try to follow. And I mean you have probably
seen the environmental development tools, and so it’s very easy to pick up those topics
and apply them to your design.

What the challenge is, is to apply sustainability to the bigger infrastructure projects, and
understand what it means for that project. You know, trying to understand where we can
re-use and recycle materials, you know, not just using brand new, river pebbles for
drainage, and I don’t think we focus on everything, I mean we try and re-use materials,
but each project is so different, and you can’t always use avenues you have used
before.

I think that Water sensitive urban design is very relevant when it comes to
infrastructure, because they are such large things, and they are capturing water, and
that water is often important, so we are dealing with that, and I suppose sub
consciously.

and it is really good that WSUD is being implemented like it is, ad that it caters for
such big projects, what may be a concern is that once they are built, then
maintenance of those bio retention basins is up to the council, and there may be a
miss correlation there? That they will not understand adequately to maintain
them?

I think its happening so rapidly though, and they often have seminars about these
issues, ad some of our guys attend them, and their run through Brisbane city council.
And you are probably right, 12 months ago they probably were having maintenance
problems, but I think now they are addressing them,

Well yeah, even in terms of energex, and their initiatives, they have a number of
seminars in terms of educating corporate bodies that, this is what we are doing,
this is what new research is out there

Yeah yeah, I think also that council are notorious for things happening very slowly over
many many years, but I think that now there is rapid change going on, because they
have some very amazing and well educated people, and they are implementing those
changes very quickly, which is really good.

Excellent. Well in terms of when you are relating to particular corporate bodies, is
there a knowledge of sustainable initiatives? I mean within the details of
sustainability?

Corporate world as in other consultants?

Yeah, other consultants?

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Yeah, well everyone is now into what sustainability can mean, what should be
implemented. Everybody down to office managers, and how an office is run and a lot of
the marketing materials from the projects is shared.

Excellent, and what is the origin of that concern, is that a from a cost friendly, or
“green cred” that they can achieve, or a personal responsibility?

We will talk nearly on a daily basis about our projects, and what you will call green
wash, and not walking the talk, we don’t want to be like that, and whoever is in front of
us, media, consultants, clients, community, we are judging them, or assessing the
situation, because we are afraid of getting caught up in the green wash that is out
there, and mostly the attitude rather than a personal desire. So even though, people still
talk about large corporate bodies such as this one, just cashing in on it, but we are
individuals working for that goal, and it is delivered through us.

So you see quite often that project start off with all these good intentions, but because
of cost, or can’t make it work, or anything, sustainability is slowly shafted and regular
design follows. But I would argue that you have to start with really big aims, and then
scale back. That means it not about ticking boxes, but trying to cover the project as best
you can.

Well that is interesting because you speak to some people and they just say that
there is a huge amount of green wash, and people are just having fun with it, but
actually, there are many people that are seeking to employ green in its proper
manifestation.

Would you agree that in Brisbane, there is an idea of moving away from green
wash, and into proper sustainable design?

Brisbane city council?

Well yeas, and others

Yeah, that could probably deal with some more exploring, cuz from what I can see Is
that everyone, even council are really trying to make the best effort that they can.

We had somebody come and talk to us recently, and they were talking to us about the
production of coal, and production of coal, and that is not a sustainable act, but the
building hat they produced where completely self sustaining, with solar panels, and
managing all the water on site, and yeah, even though its un sustainable practice its
making the best with what you can.

Ok so in terms of barriers to sustainability, what do you see as potentials for

removing them? Cost, material outlaying etc, and overcoming these?

Well, until there is a policy that says that you must do this, people will take the short cut
way out. You would keep driving your car until buying petrol was not available, or it was
illegal to drive a car, it is the same with sustainable design. We live in a consumerist
society, and you cant be a LA if you don’t understand and relate into that.

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 Is there any other ways those barriers could be broken down? Legislation,
education?

Well it could be, and is more a case of what the individual is like, John Mongard was a an
LA and worked with the flow of the land, and he knew that this type of development that
I would allow as a person, and he gave some money to tell people what is best to do
with the land, the Currumbin eco village.

So there is so much variation in clients and their perspectives on sustainability, some

push the boundaries, and other do the bare minimum. Just like in Currumbin eco village,
they will push it so far, so I suppose education of people yes, but it’s up to the
individual. And what they know, and wheat they understand, and then it produces a
response.

I hope that helps!!

And I know that I am not sure of all the sustainable options myself, but do know that
there is great potential to go further!

Yeah, and what you have said so far has been helpful!

Well yes, I wish I was in fourth year landscape like you, and to simply just research and
understand more sustainability and research it.

Its good yes, and we’ll get there eventually! And thank you so much for
participating!

No problems, I hope it’s helpful!

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 Interview 3. Large Corporate Body: Urban designer
Well, basically the idea of the research project is to understand how clients
respond to your services, and as a landscape archit4ect, and involved in the built
environment you are trying to push sustainability. What the purpose of the project
is, is to understand where clients fit within that system, what are their reactions,
perceptions to your practice.

What would be the key factors that clients wish to achieve using your services? In
terms of form, function, appearance, cost, usability, credibility?

Well it varies from client to client, but just to clarify, I’m, my first qualification is as a
landscape architect, I have been practicing for 17 years, but more recently I’m referred

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to as a an urban designer, because I have the additional experience and qualifications,
which puts me in the black, so this style for about 10-12 years.

Ok yeah.

My experience with clients and the sustainability agenda is goes way back, and long
before it became a political football. And client by client is different. End of the day, as
you could expect, what will do it for them, some clients influenced by the edge it will
give them, others are more concerned with how they are actually effecting the
environment, and others simply are in it to see if they can do to comply, or bottom
liners. A common factor with all of them, not just corporate, but also govt agencies, the
common theme is understanding what on earth sustainability means, in the context of
their project, to them. Having to explain to them why bother? What the overarching
desire and focus we have is to translate this broad, all encompassing motherhood which
is sustainability , the large picture, world peace” type denial, into a meaningful set of
principles that actually mean something for a project, and one comment, if I was to
engage in my ideal project, sustainability is my upfront discussion, it is the cohesive
piece of rhetoric, for sustainability, ecological, political, social, economic and then say
what that means for the client, and then start to collect themes, and drop the term
sustainability very early on, and actually translate it into themes, and once you start to
do that, it starts to become less isolated diverse, and helps then to understand it’s
application to the project, and embedded within it

- Yeah, it becomes integrated-

But another common theme with clients through the project, is that break through the
project, at the end of the job when they are reflecting on the project, or when they are
reporting to the board, or when they are finalising the design “where is the
sustainability” always comes up. So you have gone through a process of embedding it,
and then, it may take three years on a job, and people change, and then it can become
the type of scenario where it like tick the boxes, we’ve spent the money, this is what
we’ve got delivered... “Oh, where is the sustainability” will come up. And then you have
to make sure you have the correct documentation that demonstrates, this is the
sustainability, this is how we translated it, this is how it’s been delivered, so they
understand it, all the way through

Yeah-

Then it comes back to the very focus of the point, and that is what are the triggers that
influence them to do that, well it varies with each client. But as my profession, my
belief, that this is best practice, and therefore should make into industries that are both
already discussed. Sustainability it’s an attitude, it’s not a design solution, and we have
to encourage them, it’s up to the professionals to help them understand what they
mean.

So is there sometimes a lack of understanding of what sustainability means for

their particular circumstances, so there is not a broad understanding of what detail
sustainability can move into?

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Yeah. And unfortunately most people associate sustainability to a wind turbine on a
building. Or they relate sustainability to a green roof, or they relate it to solar panels. If
it is tangible, they can relate to it much better, if it is not, then it becomes difficult to
understand, which is why all of the mechanisms that have been brought along over the
last 10 or so years to try and map sustainability in projects, they are all about evaluating
under headings what those things mean, and actually providing measures. And
currently, it’s all about carbon now, it’s no longer sustainability, it’s carbon. And that’s
actually the discussion that we often have with clients, because it’s tangible, it’s
measurable, as soon as you relate something to the physical, helping them understand
sustainability becomes a whole lot easier for them to engage with, otherwise the
position is, “oh. It’s too expensive”. Solar power is a good example, “Oh my Gosh solar
panels are just so expensive”, which is often the discussion you will have with clients
who remove high end sustainability innovation from projects through the discussion
about money, and delivery – which is really the object that will give it the boot, if that
makes sense.

You mentioned green roofs, what is your cost benefit feeling about them?

Well, they are expensive, especially to make them work effectively. There is limited
research into how Australian plants can be integrated into the rooftop environment, and
because of that, it is often quite expensive to implement one. I have not been involved
or had the contact with green roofs as such, so my experience is little. If that helps.

It seems that there is an understanding amongst the higher corporate bodies, that
green is good for asset value,

Absolutely-

Is there a sense that the clients you work with, that they are passionate about
sustainability in its entirety? Or is it more for that asset value?

The cynic in me, and I don’t mind it because it means that you have a hook, and it’s
always good to try and converse in that clients language, and the minute you can
converse in that language, why the things you are promoting, which are good for you
yourself, are actually beneficial to help them, and their language. The cynic in me would
say that it is, about largely social corporate responsibility. For example, in the UK, and
my experience in the UK, maybe six, seven years ago, one of the big developers with
new things, started to use a policy because you had a very very buoyant market, and
therefore these bodies were trying to distinguish themselves and give themselves an
edge, so that they were competitive, when you are in a buoyant market, and there is a
lot in that market, you become more competitive, than therefore clients try to innovate
more. And, a number of the larger developers realised that they had signed up for the
corporate responsibility, or environmental policy, as part of their corporate thing, and
actually, possibly, there would be a climax or projects. So they started to define briefs
for clients that were built around their environmental policy. So they started to make a
connection to the corporate side of things in the world, and what they have committed
to as a business, and feed that into the practice of developers, and require people to
respond to their environmental policy, their corporate responsibility policy through the

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medium of that project, which is... Good! But that was in a buoyant market, so they did
need an edge, in order to compete.

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with that being the focus for clients,
because that is their language, as consultants, we need to better understand that we
are consultant, and we need to best translate a language to them, so that project are
delivered in manner that even supports our professional integrity, which will link in with
optimising sustainable outcomes in design, sustainable design is good design at the end
of the day, not taking into account it’s origin of birth.

So I do think sometimes, we can be a bit “ivory tower” kind of thing with clients, and we
need to recognise, that in the same way as we are consultants, and if you can make
your direction their direction, then often you can produce that sustainable response.

No project will be 100% sustainable, just like the SPEAR technique, or not technique, the
(Sustainable Project Appraisal Routine (ARUP)) developed 12 years ago? And the
interesting thing about that, was something very visual, and described to clients, that
your project can perform in these areas, and therefore that will maximise your use of
money and maximise your use in those areas, but trying to get the whole sphere
covered in green, it’s not going to happen.

So I suppose, that is explaining to the client that doing this is better value, and that is
probably in the forefront of clients mind – particularly in the current economic climate
we have. The monetary side of things, just like any project, there is a tight budget in
every domain, and it always has been.

In terms of solutions for implementing those sustainable initiatives, do you see

those boundaries we spoke of being broken with things like government initiatives,
education, or legislation? Do you think that legislating particular avenues of
sustainable design would help?

It’s the circle in mind, it helps and hinders? But there is no denying that the lack of
comprehensive policy across the board from federal I believe is something that will
hinder true progression, because nobody will take the first step. However, some states
are inching their way forward, and so it is goog in that respect. However, any policy
position is better than none, because at least it gets spoken about, where good or bad.
The policy needs to be well considered, and tested. There was a policy that came out in
the UK which was almost knee jerk reaction to the current market. And, within the
policy, was created things like all energy for a development, 10% should be developed
on site. And the policy was created, and I don’t believe there was enough testing of
what that meant, which goes back to the argument, what do we need, and how do we
get it or explain it. So there needs to be caution in developing policy to make sure that it
actually works, and sufficient testing so that it does work, rather than just knee jerk,
political reaction, unfortunately, the nature of politics are, knee jerk, political reaction.
So I’m all in for government policies, but also for businesses to innovate, and hopefully
educating the market to demand the business world to expand, there are many things
that need to happen, it can’t just be one. So, the more the market demands that, the
more that the developers will deliver, and start to respond to their client’s base,
because that’s where they make their money, and that will develop new market trends.

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Some people are ahead of market trends, and actually innovate, so that everybody
wants it, nobody would have asked for it, but everybody wants it’s. So I do think that
policy would not go astray, but primarily that industry would develop itself, “carrot and
a stick”

Hehe, I love that example, from two ends

In terms of other saying you do research into sustinabilty, are there any research
avenues that you recommend?

Well, multiple! You start with materials, and actually speaking to the manufacturers, a
number of Uni’s are doing research,. We worked with one uni in NSW, and actually
looked at the carbon footprint within the project that we were looking at, which was on
the Gold coast at Portland. And we try and keep that database open for people to
access. And from there, you look at websites globally, where people may be a little more
advanced in modelling the sustainable process, and carbon footprint of materials.

There is a national building specification in the UK, which is good, which is used
comprehensively. That is complimented by the national green specification, affecting
everything, from contractual behaviour on site, sourcing and using materials,
recommendations for bar-coding materials to limit wastes, statistics like, 50% of
construction materials leave the site as landfill without ever being used. But the process
of bar-coding, you are profiling and utilising your purchases so much more, and reducing
your waste.

Do you see those types of things being utilised in your practice here, or in other
firms in Brisbane?

Oh definitely, yeah, it’s all picking up. You know, considering how to determine how
contractors are to behave on site, how to recycle materials on site, how to use materials
in site are all written into the contract documentation, especially not just the material
you are using but the behaviour, including encouraging the contractors to car share to
get to site, you know, even from too and from work. Abbey group are starting to
implement those types of initiatives in their practice, and are committing to that and
quite intersr4ted in how you change behaviour on site to be more sustainable, and more
efficient. And it is great to partner to universities because they have the time to do the
research, and you can get on with the delivery. The peak is for me in project delivery
and change, is project development, and process in the materials, and the aftercare.

Helping clients understating=ding what they mean. Say for instance, a sustainable
building, it’s a completely different animal, you have to behave differently to actually be
sustainable credentials. Client don’t understand this, so user manual would be helpful,
how to interact with the new typology. So say, for instance an area of wildflower, to
some people it might look crackly and weedy, but actually you have an amazing
ecosystem here, so don’t just get on your gang mower, and just rip the whole thing out,
it doesn’t need managing like that, there is a different style of managing that needs to
take place, so some types of manuals would helpful in educating users to understand
those processes, that says, we’ve helped you understand sustainability in design , we

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have managed that process on site, and we are going to help you care for it, develop it,
and manage that site to continue it.

In terms of WSUD, I understand that local councils are seeking to get on board with
the maintenance of those outcomes in bio retention basins and similar
technologies, would you have any comment on those processes?

Well, anecdotally, it’s the water management issue is very advanced in Australia.
Probably the most sustainable practice going on, it seems to be very proactive in
government, they understand they have something different, and they are looking at
how to manage these differences and recognise that visually it is a very different thing
as well, you know, it’s not like, we have to go through and clean athe concrete channel,
those things don’t exist anymore, typically it’s different, and desires a need to explain
the technologies.

I suppose that there is a lack of sustainability actually means when it comes to

clients, and if more LA’s understood that it is their responsibility to educate the
users to understand that the process of sustainability is one that translates into
several details. Most will say, oh well, people are just playing with it now, and we
are in the bull shit phase still. People will jump onto the ideas if LA’s do seek to
embed that process into their design.

Yeah and I completely agree. It’s the behavioural change is conquered by value, if
people recognise value in something, people will take it a lot easier at the end of the
day. Sustainability is just a new way of packaging something that we have been
pursuing for a long time, in response to a point in time, like Kyoto, and that
sustainability is an attitude, it’s not an object or a design, it’s an attitude to design. It’s
the most important thing, if you apply, re-use, re-cycle, re-cover to any though process
you have, the you are ultimately producing sustainable design. Unfortunately what
come with something more political, and more popular, , is that your expected to band it
badge it, came a big deal about it. Anti sustainability rises up here, because people say,
oh, you can’t call that sustainable really. One definite problem I used to have when s
was developing, unless there was the wiz band, the sparkly, the gold coast, then it
wasn’t sustainable for them. Simple strategies like improving walk-ability, they were not
accepted, because it didn’t sparkle, it wasn’t wind turbines, or anything, so sometimes
you have to play with that strategy.

For me, if that idea of simply face value gets people engaged, and then they actually
perceive value in that, then great! Behavioural change, the biggest barrier to
sustainability and making it work is behavioural change. That’s the biggest challenge.

I suppose that’s where education of school kids is coming in, about fertilisers in
gardens, and stuff like that.

Well yeah, and you know with city school kids, and I have dealt with a fair few, and from
having children that don’t understand that an apples grow on trees! “No, apples come
packaged and plastic in the supermarket”.

Really?

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No seriously, actually trying to get the child to understand that there is a natural
process, is behavioural change. And communicating through design. That is the
interesting thing at Southport, we were actually trying to implement in design that there
would be an engaging way of relating people to the space that they were walking
through, because, as much as it is a park with sustainable features, but also hopefully,
and educational experience? Hopefully people start to read things, start to see things
differently just small moves.

Cool, well that has been really helpful, thank you for your time,

No worries it’s been a pleasure – It’s good that you’re doing it!

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