i

[H.A.S.C. No. 113122]

AMPHIBIOUS FLEET REQUIREMENTS

HEARING
BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON SEAPOWER AND

PROJECTION FORCES
OF THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION

HEARING HELD
JULY 25, 2014

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

89515

WASHINGTON

2015

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SUBCOMMITTEE ON SEAPOWER AND PROJECTION FORCES

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia, Chairman
K. MICHAEL CONAWAY, Texas
MIKE MCINTYRE, North Carolina
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
DUNCAN HUNTER, California
JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island
E. SCOTT RIGELL, Virginia
RICK LARSEN, Washington
STEVEN M. PALAZZO, Mississippi
HENRY C. HANK JOHNSON, JR., Georgia
ROBERT J. WITTMAN, Virginia
COLLEEN W. HANABUSA, Hawaii
MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado
DEREK KILMER, Washington
JON RUNYAN, New Jersey
SCOTT H. PETERS, California
KRISTI L. NOEM, South Dakota
PAUL COOK, California
BRADLEY BYRNE, Alabama
DAVID SIENICKI, Professional Staff Member
PHIL MACNAUGHTON, Professional Staff Member
KATIE REMBER, Clerk

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CONTENTS
CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF HEARINGS
2014
Page

HEARING:
Friday, July 25, 2014, Amphibious Fleet Requirements ......................................
APPENDIX:
Friday, July 25, 2014 ...............................................................................................

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FRIDAY, JULY 25, 2014

AMPHIBIOUS FLEET REQUIREMENTS
STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS
Forbes, Hon. J. Randy, a Representative from Virginia, Chairman, Subcommittee on Seapower and Projection Forces ..................................................
McIntyre, Hon. Mike, a Representative from North Carolina, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Seapower and Projection Forces ....................................

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WITNESSES
Aucoin, VADM Joseph P., USN, Deputy Chief of Naval Operations Warfare
Systems (N9) ........................................................................................................
Paxton, Gen John M., Jr., USMC, Assistant Commandant of the Marine
Corps .....................................................................................................................
Stackley, Hon. Sean A., Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research, Development and Acquisition .......................................................................................

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APPENDIX
PREPARED STATEMENTS:
Forbes, Hon. J. Randy ......................................................................................
Stackley, Hon. Sean A., joint with Gen John M. Paxton, Jr., and VADM
Joseph P. Aucoin ...........................................................................................
DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD:
[There were no Documents submitted.]
WITNESS RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED DURING THE HEARING:
[There were no Questions submitted during the hearing.]
QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING:
[There were no Questions submitted post hearing.]

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27

AMPHIBIOUS FLEET REQUIREMENTS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON SEAPOWER AND PROJECTION FORCES,
Washington, DC, Friday, July 25, 2014.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:04 a.m., in room
2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. J. Randy Forbes (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. J. RANDY FORBES, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM VIRGINIA, CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE
ON SEAPOWER AND PROJECTION FORCES

Mr. FORBES. Today the subcommittee convenes to receive testimony on amphibious ship requirements. I want to welcome our distinguished witnesses and appreciate your time and efforts to this
most important issue. Specifically, I want to welcome the Honorable Sean Stackley, Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research,
Development and Acquisition. Mr. Stackley, thank you so much for
your service to the country, and thank you for continuing briefing
this committee and testifying and giving us the benefit of your expertise.
General John M. Paxton, Jr., Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps. General, thank you for your service and all the Marines
do for us.
And Admiral Joseph P. Aucoin, Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, Office of Naval Operations Warfare Systems. Admiral,
thank you so much for all that you do.
We thank you all for being with us today on this very important
hearing. And as we continue what many of us believe to be the dismantling of the worlds greatest fighting force, it is worth considering the critical role played by the U.S. Marine Corps in protecting and sustaining national interests far from our shores.
Alongside the other elements of American naval powerdominant surface and submarine forces, and the worlds most mobile
and lethal form of airpowerthe Marines represent a middleweight force designed to project land power from the sea.
I continue to have reservations about the direction of the capacity and capabilities of our fleet, and specifically our amphibious
power-projection capabilities. I would note that the Navy and Marine Corps have both agreed that the amphibious fleet of 38 ships
is necessary to support two Marine Expeditionary Brigades, but because of fiscal constraints, this administration is planning to acquire 33 amphibious ships.
I would further note Secretary Stackley stated earlier this year
before this subcommittee that a plan for 33 ships introduces some
risk in terms of being able to provide the total lift for a major com(1)

2
bat operation. The Navy and Marine Corps have agreed that that
is an acceptable risk.
I think that we need to provide the capabilities that our combatant commanders need and look forward to better understanding
the risk that our Nation is accepting in not providing this full complement of amphibious ships.
I also understand that the Navy and Marine Corps team wants
to build 11 LX(R) amphibious ships to replace the 12 Whidbey Island and Harpers Ferry-class Dock Landing Ships. An analysis of
alternatives to consider various options is ongoing. I agree with
Secretary Stackley that this next class of ships needs to be developed within an affordable budget top line, and look forward to better understanding the various options that the Navy is considering
and the timeline for finalizing this newest class of ships.
Finally, I want to highlight that our committee authorized for appropriations $800 million and provided incremental funding authority to start construction of LPD28 [landing platform/dock]. As
I noted before, I think the amphibious fleet is an important capability for national security, and it appears that three of the four defense committees supported this effort. I look forward to understanding how the Department intends to move forward with this
important project and take advantage of the incremental funding
authority that appears to be provided by the Armed Services Committee.
I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the challenges that
the entire shipbuilding account will have with the development of
Ohio-class replacement submarines that will be coming online concurrent with the LX(R) class ships. We need to work to see the development of the Ohio-class replacement submarine funded as a
national strategic asset by the Department of Defense so that it
does not crowd out important shipbuilding capabilities like the amphibious program.
With that, I turn to my good friend and colleague and the ranking member of the subcommittee, the gentleman from North Carolina.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Forbes can be found in the Appendix on page 25.]
STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE MCINTYRE, A REPRESENTATIVE
FROM NORTH CAROLINA, RANKING MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON SEAPOWER AND PROJECTION FORCES

Mr. MCINTYRE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to you

gentlemen for your service to our country and for being with us on
an early Friday morning, and taking the time to come share with
us your thoughts on the topics today.
I know today we will be hearing testimony, Mr. Chairman, from
both the Navy and Marine Corps, and as we look at the amphibious fleet, I want our gentlemen to know we want to know how we
can best support the mission, that Congress can support what you
are doing with our amphibious fleet. The Marine Corps represents
our Nations response force that does enable us to respond anywhere around the world on short notice, and there is no question
that the Marines have been critical to our forces in our presence
in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

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We also want to make sure the Marines are not being seen as
a second land force, but rather an amphibious-based expeditionary
force true to the mission of the Marines. And in doing so, we want
to carefully examine what that force should look like, whether the
appropriate number of amphibious ships are available, and what is
the most capable platform for moving marines ashore.
It has been established the Marine Corps requires 38 amphibious
ships to conduct the two Marine Expeditionary Brigades forcible
entry mission. The Navy and Marine Corps have agreed they can
meet this requirement with 33 ships with acceptable risk. What I
would like to know is whether or not there are other ways to mitigate the risk of a smaller amphibious fleet? Does the Joint High
Speed Vessel or Mobile Landing Platform help in that regard, or
will the different design options for future amphibious ships have
an impact on that number?
We know that there is support for a 12th LPD17. It is important for this committee to have a clear understanding of how an
additional LPD procurement may affect other shipbuilding programs.
We also want to understand the acquisition strategy for the
LX(R) program and whether existing ship designs could meet that
requirement while also reducing the overall cost, or if a completely
new design is the best approach. It is important to maintain competition, and I am encouraged to see that the plan for the LX(R)
program as well as the next LHA [Landing Helicopter Assault].
Whether it is a crisis response, or a disaster, or humanitarian relief, or forward presence, we know that our Navy and Marine Corps
amphibious capability is a vital asset for the United States and one
that we must continue to maintain. And I know the chairman and
I share in our commitment to do everything we can to make sure
you are provided with the equipment and the resources and the
ships that you need to be able to fulfill that mission and do the
great job that the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps do.
Thank you for being here today. We look forward to hearing your
testimony, and may God bless you and your families for their sacrifice and your service.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mike.
And, Mr. Secretary, it is my understanding you are going to start
us off. So we look forward to your remarks.
STATEMENT OF HON. SEAN A. STACKLEY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE NAVY FOR RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT AND
ACQUISITION

Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Chairman Forbes, Representative McIntyre, Representative
Palazzo, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today
to address Navy and Marine Corps amphibious fleet requirements.
And joining me today are General Paxton, the Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps, and Vice Admiral Aucoin, the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations. With the permission of the subcommittee, I would propose to keep opening remarks brief and submit a formal statement for the record.

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Mr. FORBES. Without objection, all of the written remarks will be
made a part of record.
Secretary STACKLEY. Thank you, sir.
Today 99 ships, about one-third of our fleet, and over 75,000 sailors and marines are deployed around the world. Another 63 ships
are underway conducting local operations, testing, training, and
preparing to deploy. Five of our big-deck amphibious assault ships
are underway, including the Navys newest ship in the first of her
class, the America. The sixth big-deck is forward-deployed in
Japan, and 4,600 marines of the 22nd and 31st Marine Expeditionary Units are deployed aboard amphibious ships operating off
coasts from Africa to Japan, conducting air operations, ship-toshore operations, supporting Operation Enduring Freedom, building partnerships, deterring enemies, and responding to crises and
contingencies.
They place in the hands of our Nations leaders tools and options
to respond to todays world events and shape future events. And to
say that they are the best at what they do doesnt do them justice,
for amongst the worlds fighting forces, none other can do what
they do.
It is our responsibility to Congresses and the Departments to
place in their hands the best weapons this Nation can produce to
shape, deter, defeat, and deny our enemies. Accordingly, the seamless maneuver of marines from the sea to conduct operations
ashore, whether for training, humanitarian assistance, or combat,
remains a key priority as the Department of the Navy shapes its
future force. And to this end, from the STOVL [short take-off and
vertical landing] version of the Joint Strike Fighter to modernized
attack and utility helicopters, to the development of the heavy-lift
helicopter CH53K, we are recapitalizing critical Marine aviation
capabilities.
From the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle to the Amphibious Combat
Vehicle and upgrades to the legacy Amphibious Assault Vehicle, we
are modernizing the Marine Corps tactical vehicles. We have extended the service life of our landing craft and are developing the
next ship-to-shore connectors, and we are fielding the next generation of Marine Corps expeditionary command, control, and communications capabilities, the G/ATOR [Ground/Air Task Oriented
Radar] radar, Common Aviation Command and Control System,
and Global Communication Support System.
Underpinning this expeditionary capability is our effort to sustain and build our force of amphibious ships. Our amphibious fleet
requirements are defined in a report submitted to the Congress by
the Chief of Naval Operations and the Commandant in 2009 stating, The force structure to support 2.0 Marine Expeditionary Brigade lift is 38 amphibious assault ships. Understanding this requirement, and in light of the fiscal constraints with which the
Navy is faced, the Department of the Navy will sustain a minimum
of 33 amphibious ships in the assault echelon. This 33-ship force
accepts risk in the arrival of combat support and combat service
support elements of the Marine Expeditionary Brigade, but has
been adjudged to be adequate in meeting the needs of the naval
service within todays fiscal limitations.

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With the recent deliveries of the Somerset and the America, todays amphibious force stands briefly at 32 ships: 10 big-deck
amphibs [amphibious assault ships], 12 LSD 41/49 [Landing Ship,
Dock] ships, and 10 LPD-class [Amphibious Transport Dock] ships.
Numerically, with the retirement of the LPD4 and LHA5 in
2015, and delivery of ships currently under construction, LPDs 26
and 27, and LHA7, we will reach 33 amphibs in 2018. However,
a shortfall in big-deck amphibs will persist until we deliver LHA
8, which does not start construction until 2017 and delivers in
2024.
The LHD class and future LHA class are the backbone of the amphibious force, providing the capacity and command and control
critical to the expeditionary group commander for ship-to-shore air
and surface operations. The new LHA6 and future LHA7 add
significant aviation capability to the force, appropriate to the introduction of the Joint Strike Fighter. Flight I to the LHA6 class,
commencing with LHA8, will strike a greater balance between
vertical and horizontal lift capabilities.
As you would expect, by every measure, lift, command and control, mobility, survivability, and quality of life, the LPD17 class is
vastly superior in capability to the LPD4 class she replaces, and
more so the LSD41 class that the Navy is drawing plans to replace commencing in the 2020s.
Whether conducting missions in peacetime or combat, LPD17
provides greater employment options to the operational commander, and now a requirement for 11 of these ships, 1 per amphibious ready group, provides the group commander greater flexibility to split these ships out to operate independently.
Meanwhile, we are currently evaluating alternatives for the future amphibious ship, LX(R), which we need to build in the decade
of the 2020s and 2030s, in order to replace the LSD41/49 class.
In doing so, we are carefully weighing the lift capacity the force
needs, arguably greater than the lift capacity of the LSD41/49
class due to increased weight of todays more-armored vehicles; the
combat capability the ship will require; and the cost with which the
future Navy can realistically bear during a period that we all understand will bring great pressure to our shipbuilding budget.
And so when we weigh these factors, we are also mindful of the
health of our industrial base and the pressures on our ship construction and modernization accounts. The fact is amphibious shipbuilding is in a valley during the gap between completion of the
LPD27 and start of construction of the LX(R). And as we struggle
today with unfunded core requirements, issues well familiar to this
subcommittee, the Navy does not have the headroom during this
period of budget downturn to place ships above core on order to address the industrial base concerns.
That said, shipbuilding is a top priority for the Navy, and we, the
Navy and Marine Corps, hope that in working with the Congress,
which alone has the authority to provide and maintain a Navy,
that our budget requirements, our operation requirements, and our
industrial-base requirements will be carefully weighed as you consider the impact of the Budget Control Act caps on the future force.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to appear before
you today. We look forward to answering your questions.

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[The joint prepared statement of Secretary Stackley, General
Paxton, and Admiral Aucoin can be found in the Appendix on page
27.]
Mr. FORBES. Mr. Secretary, thank you so much.
General.
STATEMENT OF GEN JOHN M. PAXTON, JR., USMC, ASSISTANT
COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS

General PAXTON. Thank you, sir.

Chairman Forbes, Ranking Member McIntyre, and Congressmen
Palazzo and Peters, thank you and all of the members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to address the Department of the
Navy amphibious fleet requirements as it relates to your United
States Marine Corps in our enduring requirement to remain our
Nations forward-deployed crisis response force. Sir, I will keep my
remarks very brief given that we have a written statement that
you have graciously accepted, and we thank you for that, sir.
So today, as always, your Marine Corps is committed to providing a balanced air-ground logistics team with the requisite
qualities of responsiveness, scalability, and self-sustainment. Inherent in these traits is a synergy that is created from being both amphibious and expeditionary as components of a naval force.
The Navy and Marine Corps team provides a fundamental pillar
of our Nations power and security, and has done so since Thomas
Jefferson sent marines and sailors to fight the Barbary pirates off
North Africa in 1805, over 200 years ago.
As we look forward to the future we all realize that sea-based
and forward-deployed naval forces provide day-to-day engagement,
crisis response, and assured access to our global commons. A critical component in building, training, and maintaining an expeditionary forward presence is the quantity, availability, and readiness of our amphibious ships. This necessity has been demonstrated routinely with the advent of new security challenges as
we collectively face new challenges around the globe.
In actuality, our need far exceeds our capacity. As testimony earlier this year indicates, our combatant commander requirements,
as well as independent amphibious warship demands, greatly exceed the 38 ships that we have talked about as the assault element
for the two MEBs [Marine Expeditionary Brigades], which is the
stressing case for the operational plans. This day-to-day demand
will not diminish. Instead we expect it will likely increase since
amphibious ships and their expeditionary forces provide unmatched
versatility and capability that is of much use to our combatant
commanders.
Realizing this, the Marine Corps created a Special Purpose
MAGTF, [Marine] Air-Ground Task Force, and has positioned that
in key strategic areas in the European and African littorals. These
forces, however, right now are land based, and they are not immune to the time and space realities, or what we call the tyranny
of distance. An example of this was for the U.S. Embassy in Juba
last December, and we had a special mission there, and in order
to accomplish that, we launched MV22 aircraft from allied nations
in Southern Europe. We actually were able to execute a mission
and extract some U.S. personnel and assist the embassy, but the

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mission took 3,270 miles and over 15 hours. That MAGTF subsequently redeployed elsewhere on the African Continent.
While successful in the mission accomplishment, these forwarddeployed elements, however, are necessarily limited in both operational reach and sustainability once they are on the objective. As
we gather here today, crisis response forces are literally sitting on
their packs elsewhere around the world to launch within hours of
a mission tasking. They are postured this way in order to mitigate
limiting factors of both time and distance throughout those multiple geographic combatant command areas of responsibilities.
The existence and the success of these forces, however, is a direct
indicator of the paucity of our amphibious ships. With additional
amphibious ship quantities and availability, the Navy and Marine
Corps team will be able to rapidly respond to crises around the
world, and the security will be greatly enhanced. For this reason
we ask for continued congressional support for the Navy shipbuilding program. As Mr. Stackley said, that includes ship-to-shore
connectors and the maintenance capability that we need to keep
the modern fleet ready. Doing so will enable us to remain naval
and expeditionary, and be able to project the United States power
around the globe, and to secure our interests and the country
whenever and wherever we need it.
I thank all of you for your faithfulness to our Nation and request
that our written testimony be accepted. And I look forward to your
questions, sir. Thank you.
[The joint prepared statement of General Paxton, Secretary
Stackley, and Admiral Aucoin can be found in the Appendix on
page 27.]
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, General.
Admiral.
STATEMENT OF VADM JOSEPH P. AUCOIN, USN, DEPUTY
CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS WARFARE SYSTEMS (N9)

Admiral AUCOIN. Chairman Forbes, Congressman McIntyre, distinguished members of the HASC [House Armed Services Committee] Seapower committee, it is an honor to appear before you
and testify on amphibious fleet requirements. I echo what Secretary Stackley said and also the ACMC [Assistant Commandant
of the Marine Corps], so I will keep my opening remarks short,
only to make two points first.
First, my job is relatively new, and my role as the Deputy Chief
of Naval Operations for Warfare Systems, I am responsible to the
Chief of Naval Operations for supporting and establishing, integrating and resourcing Navy warfighting requirements across the
range of expeditionary, surface, undersea, and air warfare.
Second point is just to say we thank you very much. We appreciate the support Congress has shown in supporting the amphibious force. The PB15 [Presidents Budget for fiscal year 2015] plan
represents the most responsible effort to balance resources with requirements, affordability, and the industrial base considerations. It
attempts to balance shortfalls in amphibious warfare ships, large
surface combatants, and attack submarines until the force structure assessment objectives are met.
Thank you.

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[The joint prepared statement of Admiral Aucoin, Secretary
Stackley, and General Paxton can be found in the Appendix on
page 27.]
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Admiral.
First of all, I want to say that I believe you probably have staff
represented behind you that do such a good job, and to all of them,
we want to thank you for your work in making sure all of this continues moving in the right direction. And thank you for the hours
you put in doing that and serving your country.
This is an incredibly bipartisan subcommittee. We have good
working relationships with each other. Mr. McIntyre, my ranking
member, and I are very, very close partners in this. And so I want
to yield to him to begin asking the questions, and I will defer my
questions until the end.
Congressman McIntyre.
Mr. MCINTYRE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
your commitment and strong leadership of this subcommittee. I
will be brief in light of the compressed time we have on a Friday
morning.
Admiral, with LH8 now being planned to include a well deck,
can you explain some of the steps the Navy has taken to reduce
the risks associated with a major design change like that?
Admiral AUCOIN. Well, I will speak briefly, and I am sure Secretary
Mr. FORBES. Admiral, is your microphone on?
Admiral AUCOIN. Can you hear me?
Mr. FORBES. Yeah. Just keep that mike up kind of close.
Admiral AUCOIN. We know, Congressman McIntyre, that the Marines want the well deck put back in there, and design efforts are
underway right now between the shipyards to incorporate that
along with the large aviation requirements associated with that
flight deck. But we still have got a ways to go on those design efforts, a couple more years, before we finalize the design.
Secretary STACKLEY. Let me just add several pieces to that. First
is getting the requirements right and nailing down a technical
baseline associated with thatthose requirements that are feasible
and you have got the right level of risk and maturity. You have got
that balance down. And so that is what we are doing right now.
As you go to LHA8 what we are actually doing is we are going
back to a well deck. So the details associated with a well deck inside of that hull format are well understood. The requirements that
we are pinning down in further detail today are the new capabilities that come with a Flight I to this new ship class. So we are
being very careful to ensure we dont overreach in terms of those
requirements, and to balance out both the aviation side and then
the surface side, the well deck side, as we do that redesign. That
is the requirement side.
We brought in industry into this early stage of design to help us
go from defining the requirements to constructing what we would
call a contract design, and that is the design that we would actually put on to contract. So we have both the two shipbuilders that
would be competing for this at the table with us working through
this next phase to take a look at feasibility, how best to complete

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the contract design, and also how to go after some cost reduction
initiatives in the process.
So we think we have it about right in terms of stable, realistic
requirements; leveraging a mature prior class design, the LHD
class; and then bringing industry in early before we push out the
contract design for competition.
Mr. MCINTYRE. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mike.
The gentleman from Mississippi is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. PALAZZO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Gentlemen, thank you all for being here today. I want to thank
you for your service to our Nation; also coming here, taking time
out of your busy schedules to lend us your expertise on the amphibious force structure and to answer some of our questions.
I also want to thank your families for their sacrifices. I know
that is sometimes overlooked and forgotten.
I think it is pretty clear to everybody in this room and to Congress that our intent is to fund the LPD28, or an additional LPD
17-class ship. This committee authorized $800 million in multiyear procurement. I think the Senate authorizing committee did
$650-, and the Senate Appropriations Committee did $800 million,
so it is absolutely clear the intent is that Congress wants the 12th
ship in the LPD17 class.
I think it is extremely important as well, and the Commandant
has expressed a huge amount of interest on these ships, calling
these ships the Swiss Army knives of the fleet. And they are capable of doing multiple things, and, you know, not only just projecting
force, but serving as a deterrent; also being able to providing humanitarian assistance, evacuations, and the list goes on.
So, General Paxton, could you kind of elaborate, and, in your
view, what has the Marine Corpswhat are the amphibious assault assets today, and what do you think they are going to need
moving forward?
General PAXTON. Thank you, sir. And, again, great colleagues
here beside us, so there is a good work amongst the Navy and Marine Corps team on the way ahead.
In this particular case, we happen to be the ones who are trying
to articulate the requirements in order to do that power projection,
knowing full welland I will come back to this at the endthat
we have some fiscal constraints and caps there, and I will defer to
Secretary Stackley to articulate what this means in terms of the
overall shipbuilding program.
In terms of the requirements, as I tried to allude to in the comments, 38 amphibious ships is the stressing case for the simultaneity of two operations plans, and we can talk about that in a more
classified environment, but that represents the assault echelon of
two expeditionary brigades, which is what we need for, again, the
two operation plans. What we understand, though, is in the dayto-day environment, it is the currency and the simultaneity of the
demands from the five geographic combatant commanders that
stress our force on a day-to-day basis. So, sir, see if I can answer
both of those.

10
There is a hard-fast requirement for 38 ships to do the two MEB
assault echelon requirement. We agreed, at least in paper and as
recently as 2009, that we can live within fiscal constraints for 33.
Built into that, the math of that equation is a 90 percent availability of the ships; that there is always 10 percent that are in
maintenance.
We struggle under the existing number of ships today, and the
Navy, despite great work, is always challenged to get ships into the
maintenance cycle. So as we have things go on around the world,
in Yemen, in Libya, in Syria, in the hurricanes and tornadoes and
super typhoons, and Haiyan in the Pacific, we are repeatedly asked
to respond to those. We are ready to do that, but it breaks the
maintenance cycle, and that is what stresses the force.
So when we responded last November to Super Typhoon
Damayan in the Philippines, we had marines from the 3rd Marine
Expeditionary Brigade on B22s and en route to the Philippines in
somewhere between 5 and 6 hours. But it took us several weeks
to get two ships out of the maintenance cycle out there, and I want
to be on the record that Admiral Harris and Admiral Thomas did
great work to get them out of the yards and get them down there,
but there were two others we couldnt get there. And we knew by
doing that, though, we were going to break the maintenance cycle
for those ships, and that would further degrade the responsiveness
of the 31st MEU [Marine Expeditionary Unit] in the Western Pacific area.
So that is yet another case, just as the Special Purpose MAGTF
and the move to Juba earlier that just shows the case there, the
position now where not only the paucity in numbers, but the maintenance requirements in an aging fleet stresses the use of that.
And consequently, the Navy and Marine team who was forward deployed and ready to do things is always challenged to get there fast
enough, to stay long enough, and to be able to reset so that we can
get the ships back into maintenance.
Mr. PALAZZO. I have another question, but I will probably run
over my time if he tries to answer.
All right. Well, General Paxton, the recent Navy 30-year shipbuilding plan discusses the building of the LX(R). What capabilities
do you need in this ship to best support the Marine Corps mission?
General PAXTON. Yeah, thank you, sir.
When we tried to articulate requirements, and I am sure all of
the members of the committee, given your great experience and
your fine support for us, understand, there is five fingerprints a
lift, so we are looking about the number of individual marines you
can put on a ship with their personal equipment, and that is fingerprint number one. We are looking at vehicle spots to get rolling
stock on and off the ship. We are looking at cube and square for
those vehicles and for cargo. And then, most importantly, looking
for deck spots for aviation, for rotary-wing aircraft, and then well
deck spots for connectors and ship-to-shore movers, whether it is
an AAV [Assault Amphibious Vehicle] or LCU [Landing Craft Utility], LCAC [Landing Craft Air Cushioned].
We are trying to balance all five fingerprints of those lifts, and
as Secretary Stackley said earlier, we have great design records
from previous ships, and we understand the trade space between

11
a flight deck, a well deck, and number of people, but how we maximize those five capabilities, how we do it within existing cost constraints is the challenge for all of us.
So as the Marine Corps, we will try to articulate what we actually need, given changes in technology, to get the marines and their
equipment ashore. We are trying to hold down the weight of our
vehicles, but the weight of vehicles continues to increase. We are
trying to hold down the size of the aircraft, but the wingspan continues to increase. As we get great capability from our V22s, we
are now trying to make sure the V22, like the CH46, is detachment capable, which means you have an independent maintenance
capability with them.
So all of these create stressors on the design of the ship, and we
are trying to make sure that the ability to project, launch, recover,
and sustain the force can be done within the design capability of
the ship and the cost that we are afforded or the moneys that we
are given. So doing this within the challenge of Virginia and Ohioclass replacement and everything, even as marines, we understand
the challenge the Department is under. So we are grateful for the
support that you show.
But I will now defer here to Secretary Stackley. We know that
we are probably going to need more money, to be honest with you,
above TOA [Table of Allowance Requirements] to make sure the
amphibious ship portfolio can sustain while we are doing submarines and surface-class combatants.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. FORBES. We thank the gentleman for his questions. His time
is expired. I think that this subcommittee recognizes that that
funding for the LPD would not have been in there without his hard
work and also the gentleman from Virginia, chairman of the Readiness Subcommittee, who both worked very, very hard to make sure
that was done.
The chair now recognizes the gentleman from California for 5
minutes, Mr. Peters.
Mr. PETERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I dont have a lot of questions. I just want to acknowledge that
I appreciate the professionalism and the care you are taking to deal
with the constraints of the financial circumstances, and I want to
express my thanks for you doing that.
Also, I am conscious that we have another issue coming up next
year with sequester, and I think that that is a fundamental thing
that this body has to deal with to give you the support you need,
and we have to avoid that again. So I want you to know that that
is on my mind, and I appreciate all you are doing to deal with the
constraints thatand I hope that we will inject more rationality
from the congressional perspective into the budgeting in the future.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. FORBES. The gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from Virginia, chairman of the Readiness Subcommittee, Mr. Wittman is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. WITTMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I thank all of our panelists today for joining us. Thank you so
much for your service to our Nation.

12
Secretary Stackley, let me begin with you. I want to talk about
the LX(R) program and get your perspective on that and how do
we put in place both the efficiencies from a cost standpoint, but
also operational efficiencies in making sure that we, as you stated
earlier, put to task the lessons learned from the past.
Would it make sense for us to use the LPD hull form in extending the LX(R) into a faster operational phase, looking at LPD28
as the bridge to that, and, obviously, the elements of maintaining
the industrial base? But give me your perspective on using that as
an existing hull form and the advantages that that would bring, or
possibly the other challenges it might bring.
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir. Let me try to wrap this all together, the advantages of reuse of the LPD hull form, the affordability issues that we are challenged with, and then the specific requirements that LX(R)that we are drafting on LX(R).
As the ACMC described globally in discussing the LX(R) as a replacement for the LSD41/49 class, we have to first and foremost
ensure that the LX(R) provides the lift capacity that the Navy and
Marine Corps team needs. And if you look at what the LSD41/49
provide today, it is LCAC spots that we are going to have to replace. They bring a lot of cargo, a lot of cargo cubed, which is not
a shortfall issue so much as vehicle square. So vehicle space, LCAC
well deck spots, and then flight deck capacity. So if you look at
that, that is exactly what the LPD17 provides.
Now, the reality is LPD17 provides a lot more of that than the
ship class that she would potentially be replacing. So what we have
got to do, then, is moderate between the capacity of an LPD17
and the cost that comes with that, and then the true requirements
that we need for the LX(R). And that is the debate, the tension
that is going on right now inside the analysis of alternatives [AOA]
is trying to temper down, temper down those capacities with cost
in mind.
And so we are looking at several alternatives. The first clear alternative is you have a hot production line, you have a known entity in terms of LPD17, so can you reuse it? The answer is the
LPD17 class will not be the LX(R), but the hull form does provide
a well-known baseline that we are looking at a modified LPD17
to see if we can drive that in the right direction in terms of affordability for the LX(R).
We also are looking at foreign designs. There are a number of
foreign designs that fixfit an LX(R) mission profile. So those are
on the table as well. This would not be to repeat those designs.
Frankly, it would require some sort of teaming agreement between
our industrial base and a foreign navy that owns that design to see
if, in fact, it could be adapted. We are doing that for thoroughness.
And then you look at clean-sheet designs. Now, the beauty of a
clean-sheet design is you can do anything with it, and it can cost
what you want it to cost. However, in going from that paper design
to reality, we are very mindful of the risks that that introduces,
and, frankly, the history that we have of underestimating the cost
and complexity of going from a paper to digits, to steel.
So that is the trade space in the AOA. It is bringing those clean
set of requirements in that the Marine Corps require for the lift capability, looking at those alternatives, and figuring out across that

13
family of alternatives how do we drive this into an affordability box
that we set for the program.
Mr. WITTMAN. General Paxton, let me get your perspective on
that, too. You talked about the requirement set; that is, space on
board, what it would be used for. And give me your overall thought
about, just as Secretary Stackley talked about, the whole scope of
what you are looking at, existing hull forms, new hull forms. Kind
of give me your thought about what you believe the LX(R) ought
to resemble when it becomes a complete design.
General PAXTON. Thank you, sir.
Yeah, we are, we being the Marine Corps, are huge fans of the
LPD17. It has capability that we have not had before. It has capacity that we have not had before in terms of well deck, flight
deck, marines, everything. So the opportunity to continue that hull
form or something similar to it has great operational advantage to
us. It gives us the ship-to-shore, sovereign launch and recovery capability that we need. It gives us maintenance capability that we
need. It gives us command-and-control capability for disaggregated
operations in case we have to split up that Marine Expeditionary
Unit in two or three different locations.
So in terms of the responsiveness, the versatility, the sustainability, the LPD17 is a great platform. So how we capture the
value of that platform and some of those key either forcing functions or limiting factors. For example, the Secretary and I were
talking earlier about just command and control, and we have greatly enhanced command-and-control capability with the LPD17 that
we didnt have before. So the ability to maintain that skill set and
those capabilities on the LX(R) is important to us, sir.
Mr. WITTMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Wittman.
Gentlemen, once again, thank you for being here. And, Mr. Secretary, you made a statement that I dont think I am paraphrasing
incorrectly that Congress alone has ability to maintain a Navy. Did
I misstate that, and if so, correct me on that.
Secretary STACKLEY. Sir, what I am quoting is article I, section
8.
Mr. FORBES. I am not disagreeing with you. I am with you.
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir.
We can set our requirements forward to the Congress in terms
of a budget request, but we rely on the Congress to bring the budget that
Mr. FORBES. I am with you. And the reason I say that is not because I differ with you, but because I agree with you. Congress
alone has that ability and that responsibility to maintain a Navy.
We do not, I do not, intend to lighten that responsibility. I dont
intend to delegate that responsibility, and I sure, by God, dont intend to fail in that responsibility. And to do that, we realize that
you guys oftentimes have to look at your resources, you have to
consider alternatives, you have to evaluate risk, and then you
make a decision over there and come over here and say, this is the
decision we made.
But since it is our responsibility, the reason we sometimes have
to pound on you, as you have mentioned, like an anvil is because
we have got to make those decisions ultimately, and we have got

14
to know those same risks that you evaluated, those same alternatives, those same budgetary things so that we make sure we are
not failing in that responsibility. And so that is why sometimes we
have to dig deep on these questions and ask them, and sometimes
it is not a pleasant process any more than it is a pleasant process
when you guys are having to deal with it over there.
But in light of that, I want to come back, if I can, and, General,
you have stated this very articulately, but just to help me understand this a little bit better, to go from the 38 to the 33, it is my
understanding that we have acceptable risk. I dont ever know
what that term means, you know. And we can sometimes get
caught in requirements and those kind of things, but it would be
true if you had 38 of these ships, there would be times that you
wouldnt have enough. I mean, you know, you could have a situation where you still wouldnt have enough. Obviously, with 33,
there are going to be times that you wont have enough. So that
I can tell my colleagues and share this with them in a better picture, give me the risk that we are accepting to go from 38 to 33.
General PAXTON. Thank you, sir.
It is always a challenge to articulate risk whether it is significant, moderate; whether it is acceptable or not. As I tried to say
earlier, it is a dual challenge here. It is bothexcuse methe
number of ships, the strict number of them, and then also their
operational availability given the maintenance period that is in the
yard.
Lets say we have accepted the requirement for 33 ships. That includes a search capability for coming out of the yards. It includes,
as Secretary Stackley said, perhaps some new ships that may be
in the process of commissioning or older ships decommissioning, so
that the analogy would be sometimes we bank on seven consecutive
miracles. So that if you do have a stressing scenario in one country,
or, as I said earlier, the scourge of simultaneity in two countries,
we are dependent upon getting a ship out of a maintenance cycle,
bringing a newly commissioned ship into the fray early, keeping
the ship that we are going to decommission longer into the fight.
So those are the stressors on the system. And they consequently
stress our sailors and marines to get that ship ready to go into the
fight, or to keep its maintenance capability up if it needed a long
and sustained period in the yards.
So in a short answer, sir, the ships get there slower. We are not
sure they can stay on station as long as they can. They go through
Herculean efforts on the parts of individual marines and sailors to
keep them operationally ready. And then there is an inherent and
included risk that they cant stay on that station that long; that
they have to get back, sir.
Mr. FORBES. That is a good synopsis.
Mr. Secretary, weve talked about the LPD, and you have been
very clear on that. I think the gentleman from Mississippi has a
little bit of an interest in that issue, too. And as he pointed out,
we have anticipated an additional $800 million on that.
When does the Navy anticipate using that incremental funding
authority if that ultimately passes both Houses, which I think it
will, and can you address a little bit your concerns about the industrial base that we are looking at with amphibious ships now?

15
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir. It is difficult to answer that first
question because with theI will call it advanced procurement and
incremental funding that has been provided by Congress, either in
2014 or in the various versions of the bills in 2015, we are still a
billion-plus short of the funding requirements for another LPD17class ship. And that billion-plus has to enter into a budget process
where we have got other bills that are, frankly, higher priority.
And I will just use the carrier. We had a hearing where we
talked about the refueling of the carrier. We are working that inside of that budget and others that are competing for that space.
So we have got competition to go into the budget and add these priorities at the same time we have got all of the risk associated with
sequestration on the back end.
So I cannot look at you today and give you a sense of confidence
that the Navy is going to be able to budget that additional billionplus in PB16. Now, we are halfway through the process, and there
is going to be a lot more movement between now and when the
budget comes over to the Hill. But the challenges are huge in terms
of being able to fund the balance, and absent that full funding, not
necessarily 1 year, but using the incremental authority, we cant
move forward in terms of contracting for a ship. We have got to
show the funding in the budget, and so that is the paradox that
we have got today.
So we greatly appreciate your intent and the support for the
ship, but we are still well short of the funding required to place
that ship under contract.
Now, in terms of the industrial baseand here is where it is critical, because all of the points that the ACMC has made regarding
38 versus 33 and where we are today, the reality is if we put an
LPD28 under contract in 2016, it wouldnt enter the fleet until the
2022, 2023 timeframe. So that is not a near-term fix to a present
shortfall to the 33 amphib requirement, but it is an immediate fix
to a valley that the amphibious shipbuilding industrial base is
marching into during this period, as I described, between the completion of the LPD26 and 27, the last of those two lines, and the
start of the LX(R) replacement, which isnt until the 2020s. So you
are looking at a 5-, 6-, 7-year period where that industrial base is
being drawn down to the only amphibious ships that will be in construction will be the LHA class, so specifically the LHA7. It will
be at its low point going back 25 to 30 years, and that is a concern
for the Navy.
Mr. FORBES. And, Secretary, I appreciate your hard work in monitoring that industrial base because all too many people, you know,
in Congress they believe this is like a faucet. We turn it on and
turn it off whenever we want to. But if we dont have the industrial
base there, we cant turn it back on if we need to down the road.
Is that a fair statement?
Secretary STACKLEY. Absolutely. There are a couple of key points
on this. One is the skilled labor. You have got to be concerned
about skilled labor, losing the skilled labor during that valley and
then imagining that it will be available when you need to climb
back out of that valley.
The likelihood is that we will be dealing with green labor, new
entrants to the shipbuilding workforce. That is going to require

16
training, and also going to have a lot of learning curve that goes
along with that.
Mr. FORBES. So that can increase your cost and your time of production?
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir.
And the other reality in terms of any major manufacturing process, facility, company is the impact on overheads. When you lose
a business base like that, your overheads go up, and that makes
it extremely difficult to invest back into your facilities, to recapitalize, to modernize, to go after the efficiencies that we all need.
Mr. FORBES. Good.
And I just have one more question, and I see Mr. Courtney has
arrived, too. We know that the LX(R) is scheduled to replace some
of our amphibious ships, and the LX(R) will have less capability
than the LPD-class amphibs. The Navy has recently completed an
analysis of alternatives, as I understand it, and cost is a significant
driver in the threshold requirements for the LX(R).
Can you just provide the subcommittee with some of the options
that were considered in the analysis of alternatives for the LX(R)
program, and just a short, capsulized version of the pros and cons
associated with the various options?
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir. First, I wouldnt say that the AOA
is complete. This is an iterative process. The team has come forward withI will call itfirst pass on details. And we sit down,
we hammer them with questions, go back for a second pass. We are
about on the third pass right now.
The alternatives that we looked at, as I was describing earlier,
the first clear one is using the hot production line, and starting
with an LPD17 hull form, and then looking at how you can effectively descope some of the capabilities and also some of the cost
drivers, go after the cost drivers, to get the LPD17 hull form with
the lift capacities that we need for LX(R) inside of affordability box
that we have set for the program.
The second is a clean-sheet design. All AOAs include a cleansheet design. So you would start with a list of lift capabilities that
you need, and then other enabling capabilities, speed, commandand-control capabilities, that need to be added to the platform. And
then now you are dealing with a more parametric approach towards determining what size, what shape, what cost you would be
in for a new design LX(R). And that does bring with it all of the
risks associated with a new start program in terms of how well do
you understand the requirements that you just put down on paper?
What does that carry forward in terms of risk regarding either the
technology that you are planning on employing or the costs that
come with that?
And then the third is to take a look at other existing designs or
concepts. And I described the foreign designs, and we are going
through those dutifully to understandyou know, we have got all
of the glossies. Now we are digging down into the details in terms
of, okay, are they really designed for the level of survivability that
we would plan on including in our future LX(R)?
And then you have the hybrids. You start to take a look atwell,
honestly, we took a look at does an MLP, which has incredible lift

17
capacity, does that potentially play for the roles and missions of an
LX(R)?
So there has been a very broad field of alternatives that we have
looked at and all of the trades that go with what degree, what level
of capability, what are the risks either in terms of operational risks
or in terms of cost or technology that you are anticipating, and
then what are the costs that come with that, and necking down to
a smaller number of alternatives that we are, again, trying to drive
into that affordability box that we have got to hit.
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
Mr. Courtney is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. COURTNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
witnesses for being here.
Secretary Stackley, can you clarify the intent behind the 2002
MOU [memorandum of understanding] and the more recent 2009
MOA [memorandum of agreement], commonly referred to as swap
1 and swap 2, and how the procurement of LPD28 could impact
those two agreements?
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir. So in 2002, the industrial partners
associated with the LPD17 program were effectively split apart as
a result of various mergers and acquisitions. So Bath Iron Works
and Avondale Shipyard were teamed on LPD17. Avondale was acquired by Litton, which was acquired by Northrop Grumman, and
then all of a sudden we found ourselves with two competitors inside of one program, and it wasnt working out well.
So we looked at what we referred to as the swap. And with
then Northrop Grumman and General Dynamics, we swapped
workload across contracts where Bath Iron Works permanently
exited the LPD17 program in exchange for the LPD17 ships that
it was awarded under contract and within its teaming agreement,
which were fourthey were going to build four LPD17-class ships.
So they permanently exited, and then there was a one-for-one
swap. An LPD17 would go down to Northrop Grumman, and in
exchange a DDG51 would go to Bath Iron Works in the simplest
of terms.
So in executing that swap agreement, three LPD17s have been
placed under contract at Avondale and Ingalls, and in exchange, an
additional three DDG51s went to Bath Iron Works. And the language describes that if a fourth LPD goes tois awarded to
Avondale Ingalls, then a fourth DDG51 would go to Bath Iron
Works. That is as simply as I can put it.
In 2009, there was a separate similar type of swap agreement,
but in that case it was reorganization of the DDG1000 program,
and it restated that that swap agreement did not impact the existing 2002 swap agreement. So what that would mean, frankly, is if
another LPD17-class ship was awarded to Huntington Ingalls Industries [HII], then there is an equivalent balancer that would be
due to Bath Iron Works.
That agreement is between the Navy, General Dynamics, and
HII, and if it came down to another LPD17 being awarded, then
we would sit down with industry to figure out how to best make
it right.
Mr. COURTNEY. Thank you. That is all.

18
Mr. FORBES. Gentlemen, thank you once again for being here. As
I said in our meeting before this meeting, I want to make sure you
get everything you need on the record. There may be some questions that you think are important to have on the record that none
of our Members have asked at this time, or perhaps some things
that you think might have been mischaracterized so far. So if I can
give you what time you need to sum up in those comments now,
and, Admiral, if you dont mind, we will start with you and work
our way backgive the Secretary just a minute to pause. He has
been talking a lot here, so
Admiral AUCOIN. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity.
As was mentioned, there is an AOA ongoing. We are doing this
iteratively. And it is no surprise, the LPD17 is something the Marines would like, the Commandants been on the record for saying
that, and we would like to accommodate that. But cost is a major
driver, and the LPD17 is cost-prohibitive at $2 billion.
But there is money in there for advanced procurement. There is
some money there for incremental funding. If we could use some
of that advanced procurement to look at ways to bring down the
cost, as seed money to help bring down the design cost, to use that
hull form, similar to what we did with the Virginia-class submarinewe put seed money in there, and the cost and the schedule both have profited from those inputs to bring it below cost and
on schedule for a Virginia-class submarine. If we could do that for
this, I think it would go a long way. The CNO mentioned that
when he was here in March, and I think that would help us a lot.
That is all, sir.
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Admiral.
General.
General PAXTON. Thank you, Chairman. Just two points if I may,
sir. First is we talked about the 38 and 33, and I talked about the
demand signal and the driver being the simultaneous operations
plans. I would just like to reiterate again for the record the challenge of what we now call the new norm, which is the various hot
spots around the world.
The utility of any amphibious ship and in particular the LPD
17, as we said, the Swiss Army knife, it is even more important in
the new norm because of the disaggregated ops and the way we ask
either a split ARG/MEU [Amphibious Ready Group/Marine Expeditionary Unit] or a single ship steamer to go out and respond. So
things like day-to-day and currency and improvements of command
and control, the C2 sweep, perhaps an ISR [intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance] capability, those are the stressors in the
day-to-day environment.
And using that as a segue, the second point is, and I believe it
was Mr. McIntyre before he left talked about a use of the JHSV
[Spearhead-class Joint High Speed Vessel] and the MLP [Mobile
Landing Platforms], and those are great platforms with great capability, and we are amenable to taking a look at how they may be
used in certain circumstances. But if you go back to the stressor
and the op plan, we are fairly adamant that those are in addition
to as opposed to in lieu of capabilities just because of their survivability and the stressors of a fight. So more than amenable to look-

19
ing at those, and we appreciate Congress funding of those, but we
are always a little bit reluctant to introduce those into a stressing
operation plan.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. FORBES. General, you also mentioned, I think, earlier about
the COCOM [combatant command] requirements and where they
were. And there is always a gap between our COCOM validating
requirements and what we can meet. Is that gap growing or decreasing?
General PAXTON. Sir, due to the nature of the world, the demand
signal is indeed growing, and we are trying to figure out how we
can keep pace with that. And that is, of course, one of the stressors
on all of the services and on all of our programs of record, if you
will.
Mr. FORBES. If you looked at that gap, is it increasing because
of the increased demands from the COCOM, or is it increasing because we cant meet as many of the requirements as we were meeting before, or a combination of both?
General PAXTON. I believe it is a combination of both, sir. As
some of the fragile nation states devolve, and as the global war on
terrorism increases, then there is a higher demand signal up there.
And then in addition, as Secretary Stackley said, because of the
age of our platforms, and because of the maintenance requirements
in getting them back in, we are either unable to respond as quickly, or unable to stay as long. Or if we do, because we are in the
habit of saying yes and meeting operational requirements, so if we
go early and stay the same length, then we know we have degraded
capability and extended our maintenance period that we are going
to have to do later, sir.
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, General.
Secretary, once again, thank you for all your help with the subcommittee. We depend on you a great deal for your input, and we
would love to hear any closing comments you might have.
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir, very briefly. We are spending a
great deal of time on requirements today in terms of amphibious
force requirements, but, more broadly, shipbuilding. We have three
major programs that are going through analysis of alternatives and
getting ready to go on to the next phase of design contract and
leading to construction. TAO(X) is first in the line, followed by
LHA8 and LX(R). That is good for the shipbuilding industrial
base. In fact, we are balancing those programs across, frankly, our
two major builders of amphibs and auxiliaries in a competitive environment.
Today it is designed, we have got to get to production, but there
is a valley in between. And of the eight Tier 1 shipyards that are
building U.S. Navy ships, seven of the eight are going into a valley
over that period of the next 6 to 7 years. It is straight math, and
it is something the Members have to understand. So as we try to
fix issues that cross from the shipbuilding program to shipbuilding
industrial base, if it is going to be a zero sum, then we are basically using shipbuilding to fix shipbuilding, and that is a net negative.
With regards to affordability, we have always been focused on affordability, but we do have this period of the Ohio replacement

20
coming our way where the total shipbuilding program is not affordable. And we have tried to describe that very clearly in report to
Congress.
In that period, the 2020s out to the mid-2030s, our program is
not affordable with the Ohio replacement laid on top, and that
gives us problems on the eaches of each of the programs. But,
more importantly, no one today can stare at that plan and predict
where we will be 10, 15 years from now, except that if we do not
fix that picture, then we will be a much smaller Navy.
Mr. FORBES. Mr. Secretary, if I could just ask you one more
elaboration not limited to the subject matter we are talking about
today. But one of the things that I know, since you wrestled with
this for so many years, oftentimes the public and policymakers believe we can ramp this up very quickly if we have a crisis in the
world.
With the Navy, what is unique about that, why that bothers you?
Because I know you talked about the 2030s for our subs if we dont
continue building what we are looking at with Ohio class. What
message would you have that we could deliver to them about the
difficulty of ramping things up when you talk about the Navy?
Secretary STACKLEY. Yes, sir. On average it takes about 5 years
to build a ship, carriers longer, smaller ships less. But 5 years is
a good, solid number. When you are building, say, 10 ships a year,
it takes 30 years to build a Navy, and so you cantwe are living
off of the ship construction of the 1980s, we really are. That is running to the end of its service life, so we have to recapitalize ships
that were builtin the 1980s, we were building ships at about a
20-ship-per-year rate. Now, we are not trying to achieve the force
level that we had in the 1980s, but to sustain a 300-ship Navy, we
have to recapitalize at a rate near what it was built at back in the
1980s. That is a very difficult problem financially with regards to
the industrial base and with regards to the trades that we have got
to make inside of our program.
You cannot wait until you need ships to start to crank up the
machinery. We have got to look far ahead. And, frankly, this is one
of the beauties of the 30-year shipbuilding report that we turn in
to the Congress. It forces everybody to look far ahead and recognize
that decisions in shipbuilding that are 5 to 10 years away are in
front of us today.
We have to make those decisions today to influence events 5 to
10 years from now. And 5 to 10 years from now is that period of
the Ohio replacement program. If we arent making those decisions
today, then the folks who are sitting in this hearing room 5 or 10
years from now, they are going to be in an extraordinarily different
place than we are today with regards to our force structure, our capabilities, our ability to provide presence, and our ability to respond to crises.
Mr. FORBES. Mr. Secretary, General, Admiral, thank you so
much. Thank all your staff members for their support and help
here. With that, we are adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:12 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

A P P E N D I X
JULY 25, 2014

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

JULY 25, 2014

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