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Magic Lantern Forum General Discussion General Chat Digital Video Crop Mode
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Topic: Digital Video Crop Mode (Read 6604 times)

Digital Video Crop Mode

RenatoPhoto
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MARK UNREAD

on: December 05, 2012, 03:33:35 PM

I use 5D mark III for bird videos and photography. One thing I noticed is that
when I am focusing my video in Live Mode I use the zoom button (5x-10X) and
get fantastic resolution to properly focus on the fine details of the birds.
Unfortunately all that resolution of the sensor does not translate to the resolution
of the video. Now I have learned that inferior models such as t3i allow you to
actually record the zoom LiveView details. This would be a GOD SENT tool for
wildlife videographers if it could be implemented to the 5D Mark III. I think
canon would boost their camera sells if they allowed this digital zoom option to
be customized ie. 2x, 3x, 4x, ... 10x and to record the high definition video.
I suppose Canon would prefer to sell you a 600 mm lens of $10,000 rather then
allow to make use of the cropped mode sensor to get the same results!!
So the question arises, since I cannot record cropped video in my 5D3 to test:
Assume I put a 50mm f1.4 lens on my 5D3. Will the cropped video say at 3x on
a 5D3, which is equivalent to 1920x1280, be better or worse than using a 3X
lens, which for a full frame camera would be 150 mm?
My guess is that the cropped video might be better since there is no downsizing
from the sensor full resolution to the 1920x1280. Of course that would assume
that the 150 mm lens is of prime quality.
I would love to use my 300 mm prime lens with digital zoom of 3x to capture fine
wildlife videos without spending a fortune...
Maybe the great effort to do this with ML would be worth lots of money to some
videographers like me. Hint, hint .. big fat donations!
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http://www.pululahuahostal.com | EF 300 f/4, EF 100-400 L, EF 180 L, EF-S 10-22,

Samyang 14mm, Sigma 28mm EX DG, Sigma 8mm 1:3.5 EX DG, EF 50mm 1:1.8 II, EF
1.4X II, Kenko C-AF 2X

bart

Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Senior

Reply #1 on: December 07, 2012,

01:11:52 PM

Posts: 391

Hi Welcome to the forum,

Great a fellow bird video shooter. In video terms inferiority of the 600d(t3i) is
questionable. I'm happy to share my experiences.
Advantages over the 5d3 are:
- 1.6x crop factor, comparable to a 1.6x converter without the light loss but you
maintain the DOF from the lens.
- 3.3x cropzoom insane zoom on a 400mm+1.4x TC but also serious quality loss
and recording more atmospheric disturbances like heat waves.
- movable lcd screen for comfortable low angle shooting at bird eye level.
Advantages 5d3 over 600d
- no aliasing on fine feather patterns, though the 600d cropzoom has no aliasing
but also softens details.
- weather sealing although 600d turns out to be very touch.
I'm trying out a new strategy soon.
A Panasonic GH2 (maybe GH3 later) combined with a manual Nikon 400mm F3.5
and adapter. I expect the Panasonic ex tele to give me much better end results
due to the video resolution that is better preserved. But I have yet to find out.
You can also use canon fd 500mm 4.5 or 400mm f2.8 + adapter if you are serious
about video. They come with an aperture ring and more accurate MF ring.
Remember sensor cropping and cropzooms, TC are just like post photo crop. You
keep the same DOF from the lens MM, distance to subject and chosen aperture,
but zoom in on the center of the sensor. If your lens suffers from chromatic
aberrations, these will be more pronounced. It looks like you can film birds from a
bigger distance but you need many MM and a huge aperture to get shallow DOF
at that distance and separate the bird from the background. In researching what
tele lens would fit best I made a table with lenstype related to aperture and
distance.

Based on 600D
DOF in Meters (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html)
lens
5m
10m
20m
30m
50m
100m
200m
400mm f5.6
0,03
0,13
0,53
1,19
3,34
13,4
54,6
300mm f2.8
0,03
0,12
0,47
1,06
2,97
11,9
48,2
400mm f3.5
500mm f4.5
400mm f2.8

0,02
0,02
0,02

0,08
0,06
0,06

0,31
0,27
0,26

0,71
0,60
0,60

1,98
1,69
1,67

7,97
6,80
6,70

33,2
27,4
26,9

600mm f4.0
800mm f5.6

0,01
0,01

0,04
0,03

0,16
0,13

0,37
0,30

1,04
0,83

4,20
3,33

16,9
13,4

As you see from the table. There are about 3 categories of lenses that offer
similar DOF at a certain distance to the subject.
Now it really depends on how much you want to carry or if you are a hide shooter
and the amount of crop you could achieve and the price you want to pay for a
decent lens. I was surprised that the 300mm f2.8 had the exact same DOF as a
400mm f5.6 at a certain distance to the subject. The 400mm does magnify a little
bit more but that can be compensated by using crop factor/zoom.

You also see that the more distance to the subject the DOF increased exponential.
Look at the difference between 400 5.6 and 800 5.6. They follow the same DOF
pattern but with double distance. So a 400mm 5.6 has the same dof at 50m as
the 800mm at 100m. At those distances the differences DOF differences are
pretty great.
If the gh2/nikon combo doesn't turn out to be great in results, I would jump back
to 600D with the far superb control over focus and exposure that ML provides.
And I will seriously miss focus peaking.
Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 03:07:03 PM by b4rt

RenatoPhoto
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Posts: 1410
5DM3 / 7D

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Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #2 on: December 07, 2012,
06:11:17 PM

Dear fellow birder: thanks for the nice welcome and for the valuable information.
I will looking forward to your test results of the Panasonic GH3, is there no way to
use any canon lenses with the Panasonic?
Of course I value the shallow DOF of FF cameras and super expensive lenses but
this is not the most important thing for me. I value reach far more than anything
and of course I cannot afford the expensive lenses. Also I am a birding guide and
therefore have to carry a scope with tripod on top of my heavy camera so large
lenses are out of the question. This is why a I wish there was more interest in
the crop video mode for these large FF sensors and also to a lesser degree to the
APC sensors, since their low light capabilities are limited. I my case I live in
Ecuador and go to the cloud forest often, and light is pretty scare inside the
thicket of primary forests of south America so high ISO is extremely important.
I go to great extents to get the extra reach and currently use a 300mm f/4 + 2x
Kenko + 1.4x Canon making my birding setup a Canon 5D3 with 840mm at f11.
This so far is the best reach vs weight and IQ that I can get. I have been
considering the 300 f/2.8 to use in the same setup but the price and weight is too
high for my means and body weight! When I am in very low light situations I use
the 1.4x only and for night photography only use the 300mm f/4.
Here are some photos taken with 840 mm f/11 and Canon 5D3
http://10000birds.com/endemic-birds-of-brazil.htm
http://10000birds.com/birds-of-pantanal.htm
Here is my experience on TC and photography:
http://10000birds.com/bird-photography-equipment-teleconverters-for-7d-and5d-miii.htm
Most of them would have been useless with the standard 300 mm f/4.
Now if ML could help provide an additional 3X zoom then I could forfeit all my TC
and greatly improve IQ. I am very, very surprised on how little interest there is
on this subject!

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http://www.pululahuahostal.com | EF 300 f/4, EF 100-400 L, EF 180 L, EF-S 10-22,

Samyang 14mm, Sigma 28mm EX DG, Sigma 8mm 1:3.5 EX DG, EF 50mm 1:1.8 II, EF
1.4X II, Kenko C-AF 2X

bart

Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Senior
Posts: 391

Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012,

11:29:55 PM

Hi
Nice work. Here are some examples of closeups with 600D + 400mm + kenko
1.4x and with or without cropzoom. If I calculate right it's 1.6 x 400 x 1.4 x 3.3 =
near 3000mm

filming and photographing birds isn't easy. Most people in the Netherlands choose
to use hides to get close to birds. Some build their own hides others use their car
as hide.
http://www.birdpix.nl/portal.php?language=english
In jungle it is even harder with very strong contrasts, birds up high in the canopy
or hidden between leaves. I have some experiences from India, Nepal, Indonesia,
Thailand and Kenya. I plan to go to South America this summer. And we looked
into Pantanal. At this point Venezuela looks more attractive with more variety in
landscape and also cheaper. Here the Amazon and Andes come together. But I am
still researching the options.
About the reach that keeps being a problem. Teleconvertors work as cropping so
an option is to go with a super high resolution sensor and do some serious
cropping in post. A Nikon D800 might work. Another option is to digiscope,
photographing and video through your telescope. My friend does that a lot but
you have to find a camera that fits your scope perfectly otherwise you deal with
vignetting. Another friend has a Swarovski spotting scope with a dedicated DSLR
adapter and that works very well but is expensive. It does takes Canon DSLRS
and you can use focus peaking from ML. There are cheaper options but I don't
know what scope you have.
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RenatoPhoto
Moderators
Hero Member

Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #4 on: December 08, 2012,
01:52:51 AM

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Posts: 1410
5DM3 / 7D

I will look at your video later. I do not have bandtwith where I live, so it will have
to wait. But digital crop video seems amazing 3000mm!!!! I sure hope ML or
Canon get on it and provide a firmware for 5d3.
I think Venezuela would be great for wildlife but I have heard many bad things
about security issues if you are doing it alone. But it should be better if you hire
a guide!
I would recommend Ecuador since I live here! Maybe we can meet this summer.
Here is where I live:
www.pululahuahostal.com
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http://www.pululahuahostal.com | EF 300 f/4, EF 100-400 L, EF 180 L, EF-S 10-22,

Samyang 14mm, Sigma 28mm EX DG, Sigma 8mm 1:3.5 EX DG, EF 50mm 1:1.8 II, EF
1.4X II, Kenko C-AF 2X

RenatoPhoto
Moderators
Hero Member

Posts: 1410
5DM3 / 7D

Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012,
06:52:58 PM

I finally watched the video, wow that is very nice! Congratulations..

I found some scenes with the cranes on the ground and one with the cranes flying
which i assume were the digital zoom at 3000mmm!!!!
It would appear that they are indeed sampling just the center of the sensor to get
the excellent resolution. So now I want this on my canon 5D Mark III.
Since you have the original cropped zoom images I ask your opinion on this
matter. Would you say that they are cropping the sensor at the center image or
not. My guess is that they are. If you took the original video, without cropping,
and zoomed in post, then the quality must be inferior, I mean significantly
inferior. This would confirm that they are using just the center of the sensor.
Please confirm if this is also your opinion.
Thanks
Renato
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http://www.pululahuahostal.com | EF 300 f/4, EF 100-400 L, EF 180 L, EF-S 10-22,

Samyang 14mm, Sigma 28mm EX DG, Sigma 8mm 1:3.5 EX DG, EF 50mm 1:1.8 II, EF
1.4X II, Kenko C-AF 2X

bart
Senior

Posts: 391

Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #6 on: December 11, 2012,
08:32:46 PM

I think the 600d cropzoom is done from the center, but I can't confirm it is truly
1920x1080.
They probably did the same as with normal 600D resolution, 1620 upsize to 1920.
I read somewhere that pancake lenses might work great with filming through the
spotting scope.
So maybe EOS M 22mm or lumix 20mm/14mm might get good results and are
compact as well.
I want to try that out somewhere.
My friend has a Leica spotting scope.

About the 5d3 cropzoom. I don't know current status.

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RenatoPhoto
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Posts: 1410
5DM3 / 7D

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Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012,
12:31:55 AM

Hi, I have a Vortex Razor HD scope which is almost as good as Swarovsky at half
the price. I use a canon 50mm f/1.8 to do digiscoping and it is pretty good but
you need a lot of light to get good results. I actually get better results using my
kenko 2x + canon 1.4x + 300 f/4 lens with the 5D Mark III, so I have stopped
using the digiscoping setup. I think the Swarvsky scope can produce better
images but the whole thing is a little difficult to use and to aim accurately. If you
are going to do digiscoping I would consider using the Swarovsky scope.
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http://www.pululahuahostal.com | EF 300 f/4, EF 100-400 L, EF 180 L, EF-S 10-22,

Samyang 14mm, Sigma 28mm EX DG, Sigma 8mm 1:3.5 EX DG, EF 50mm 1:1.8 II, EF
1.4X II, Kenko C-AF 2X

Dunc101

Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Freshman

Reply #8 on: December 24, 2012,

03:45:06 PM

Posts: 92

Hi,
The new CANON 1DC has a crop factor feature that is brilliant.
It has the option to use the FF sensor size as a 5D markII 1080p, Super 35mm,
1080p (1.6 x crop) and a 4K APS-H crop size (1.3 x crop)
It would be very useful to add a similar selectable crop feature to ML, as it says in
this post below - giving you three lens in one, without loosing any apature/light
loss (with TC) and adding 1.6 x zoom to your lenses.
If you could make ML use the Super 35mm crop sensor proportion but still retain
1080p, that would be a very useful feature.
http://www.thefilmmakersworkshop.com/movie-cameras/cannon-1-dc/
Thanks
D
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Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #9 on: December 24, 2012,
07:26:51 PM
Quote

Posts: 5936
600D/6D/50D/EOSM/7D

no aliasing but also softens details

It zooms in on the center and makes the pixels larger (noise bits too) so
everything is indeed softer.
Quote

I think the 600d cropzoom is done from the center, but I can't confirm
it is truly 1920x1080

Its 1720x1000 or something around there zoomed from a 2K sized "window" in

the center. Still a few line skips and interpolated. Recording the full window at
1920x1080 with everything else just sheared off would be ideal but not there yet.
5DIII and all newer cameras should be able to do it, just a matter of activating it.
Older digic IV is probably not going to happen unless we control the sensor
directly.

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RenatoPhoto
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Re: Digital Video Crop Mode

Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012,
08:14:44 PM
Quote from: Dunc101 on December 24, 2012, 03:45:06 PM

Posts: 1410
5DM3 / 7D

The new CANON 1DC has a crop factor feature that is brilliant.
It has the option to use the FF sensor size as a 5D markII 1080p,
Super 35mm, 1080p (1.6 x crop) and a 4K APS-H crop size (1.3 x
crop)

Oh well, that clearly explains why Canon did not put any of those features in any
of the good cameras INCLUDING 1D X. Canon sucks!!!! They want us to pay the
price of 1DC to get cropped digital video.
There is no way in HELL I will pay that kind of money for these features when the
competition (Nikon and Panasonic GH2 and GH3) provides them for FREEE. That
is why canon 5D3 does not sell very well and Canon had to drop the price by at
least $500. Instead they should have provided a firmware update with digital
cropped video and kept the same price. But of course nooooooo, they will only
add these features to 1DC thinking that people will buy that piece of overpriced
c... Which is nothing more than a 1DX with better firmware. Canon is losing
customers because they piss people off!!! I am pissed off!
I hope that ML can do something about this! I have pledged $200 donation to get
Digital Cropped video in ML.
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http://www.pululahuahostal.com | EF 300 f/4, EF 100-400 L, EF 180 L, EF-S 10-22,

Samyang 14mm, Sigma 28mm EX DG, Sigma 8mm 1:3.5 EX DG, EF 50mm 1:1.8 II, EF
1.4X II, Kenko C-AF 2X
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