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SavarkarIsTheNewFatherOfTheEmergingIndia.GandhiIsNowTheStepfather.

SavarkarIsTheNewFatherOfTheEmergingIndia.GandhiIs
NowTheStepfather.
outlookindia.com/magazine/story/savarkaristhenewfatheroftheemergingindiagandhiisnowthestepfather/298048

In1916,theCongressandtheMuslimLeaguesignedtheLucknowPact,stokinghopesthattheywouldbridge
thechasmdividingthemandmountaferociouscampaignagainsttheBritishcolonialrule.Thishopewassoon
tobebelied.Thegulfbetweenthetwoparties,asalsobetweenHindusandMuslims,widenedevenfurther,
ultimatelyleadingtoPartition.Indeed,whatwejubilateovertodaycanleadtosorrowandtragedytomorrow.And
theworriesandproblemsofthepresentcanfireustocreateanewIndiaacenturylater.
In2016,Indiamarchestowardswhatisrecognisedasthenewdawnofeconomicprosperityandpoliticalpower.
InthisinterviewwithAjazAshraf,renownedpoliticalpsychologistAshisNandyspeaksonthefutureofIndia,
basedonhisreadingofitspastandpresent.Excerpts:
Theopeninglinesofyourbook,RegimesofNarcissism,RegimesofDespair,are:Theseessaysare
aboutanIndiathatisnolongerthecountryonwhichIhavewrittenforsomethinglikefourdecades.
Manythingshavechangeddrasticallyinrecentyears....WhatdothesechangespresageforIndias
future?
Letmetakeabroadsweepofthings.Firstofall,Indianolongerhasavisionofitsown.Itsvisionisthevisionof
manydevelopingsocietiesaroundtheworld.Itisahomogenised,predictablefuturewhichhasbeensoldtous
asauniversalcureforpoverty,indignityandbackwardnessingeneral.Inotherwords,ourownfutureshave
beenstolen.
Alldevelopingsocieties,includingChina,havenowacceptedthattheyarebackward.Ourfutureisexactlythe
sameasthefutureofallstandardisednationstates.Itisanewvisionforthemaswell,exceptthattheirvisionis
300yearsold.Wehavenowjoinedthebandwagon.India,therefore,doesnthaveadistinctivefuture.
WhenyoutalkofIndiahavingacceptedtheuniversalvision,areyoureferringtowhatyoucallthe
urbanindu strialvision?
Yes.Itisanacceptancethatisnotevenacriticalacceptance.Infact,itisanunqualifiedacceptance.Mindyou,
thiswasnotthecreationoftheBharatiyaJanataParty.Indiahadalreadychangedbeforeitcametopower.
PerhapstheBJPsriseisaresultofIndiahavingchanged.
Thatsright.Theycandelivertheurbanindustrialvisionmoreruthlessly,oratleastseemtodoso.Torepeat,the
visionofallambitious,socalledSoutherncountriesBrazil,India,Chinaetcisexactlythesame.
Ourherois(Singaporesfirstprimeminister)LeeKuanYew.Hessopopularthatoneisafraidofsayinghewas
oneofthelastdespots,thelastvotaryofdevelopmentalauthoritarianism.TaketheEastAsianTigers.Ihave
arguedthattheywerenotonlytigersbutalsomaneaters.Allofthemhaddespoticregimes.Ifyouwant
spectaculardevelopment,thenbepreparedforahighdegreeofauthoritarianism.
IsIndiaheadedthatway?
InIndia,thismovementbeganwithMrsIndiraGandhiinthemid70s.Butwhatwedidbydefaultnotbecause
wehadthoughtthroughitwedonow(bydesign).WhenC.N.Annadurai(oneofthearchitectsoftheDravidian
movementandformerTamilNaduchiefminister)declaredthatTamilNaduwantedtobeaseparatecountry,
nobodycalledhimatraitororattackedhiminParliamentororganisedcountrywideprotests.NoteventheJan
Sangh(theBJPsearlierincarnation).Theyknewthatwhenpeopleareangry,indistress,theysaythingswhich
mustbeignored.

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ThesamethinghappenedwithMrsGandhi,whoultimatelyhadtosignanagreementwithLaldenga.Hedied
whenhewasMizoramschiefminister.Hewasgivenastatefuneral.OnewhousedtocallhimselfGenLaldenga
andledarebelarmyagainstIndiabecamepatrioticLaldenga.
Thesedefaultsarenolongeravailabletous,becausesomeoneortheotherisgoingtotakepoliticaladvantage
ofit.Mysecondpointisthatnotonlyhaveourvisionsbeenstolen,therangeofpoliticsinIndiahasnarrowed
drastically.
Willitgetevennarrower,say,by2050or2100?
Itcantgetnarrowerthanthis.
Isitbecausetherearenoalternativevisionsavailabletous?
Thatisright.Whateveralternativevisionsthereare,theseareconfinedtothemargins.Inonesense,peoplelike
MedhaPatkarorClaudeAlvaresorVandanaShivadontfeeldefeatedbecausetheyarepowerfulmenand
womenwhoholdontotheirvisions.Butapartfromafringeelement,hardlyanyonethinksofthemas
visionaries.Nordoesanyonethinkofthemasevenpoliticallyrelevant.
Arewethentrappedinapeculiarcircumstanceinwhichwedonthavechoices,butonlythechanceto
examinetheconsequencesofhavingahomogenisedvision?
Choices?Well,IoftensaythatifapersoninIndiaorChinadiesafterlivingavirtuouslife,hedoesntgoto
heavenhegoestoNewYork.
Wecanteventalk,asweusedtoearlier,ofmanyoftheenvironmentalproblemsweencounter.Wedonthave
thecouragetoadmitthatmostofourmegadamshavenotdelivered.Onlyfouroftheeightdamsplannedunder
Indiasfirstmultipurposedamproject,theDamodarValleyCorporation,werebuilt.Itcostsusmoretomaintain
theDVCthanwhatitdelivers.TakeBihar,where,withoutdams,only15percentofitwouldgetfloodedevery
year.Withdams,thepercentagehasgrowntomorethan30percent.
Ecologicalsensitivitywasbuiltintoourlivesoverthecenturies.Nobodytalkedofecologyorenvironment,butthe
traditionalfearofit,themagicalityattributedtonature,protectedus(bypreventingusfromdisturbingnature).All
thesehavebeendeclaredasmeresuperstitionandshelved.
Wenolongerhavetheconceptoffuturegenerations.WearenowlikethatAmericanwitwhosaid,WhyshouldI
thinkofthefuture.Whathasthefuturedoneforme?EveryIndianwantstohavehisorherlifewhetheryour
carguzzlespetrolorreleasesparticulatematter,itdoesntmatter.Thesuperiorcourtsaretakingaposition.
Theyhavesomevision.Buteveryoneelseisonlythinkingofhowtobeatthelawsandfindloopholesinthem.
Oneoftheconsequencesofmegadamshasbeenthedisplacementoftribals.DoyouthinktheIndiaof
2100willgothewayoftheUS,whereindigenousIndianshavebeenpackedofftoreserves?
Wearewaitingtodothat.Actually,wherevertheyarenotconcentratedinnumbers,asinNagalandand
Mizoram,wewilljustfinishthemoff.OnethirdofalltribesinIndiaaretribesonlybyname.Theyhavebeen
dispersed,atomised,andindividualised.Theyhavejoinedtheproletariat.Infact,theprogrammeof
proletarianisationoftribals,directlyorindirectly,isbuiltintothemanifestoofeveryparty,includingtheLeft.They
wantequalityforthetribes,notseparateexistence.Theywantjusticebutwhatistheirconceptofjusticeisvery
differentfromthatofthetribals.
OneoftheresultsofthisistheNaxalitemovement.ThesecondNaxalitemovement,unlikethefirstone,isnot
anurbanphenomenon.Itistherebellionoftribals,onlysomeurbanyouthshavejoinedthem.
Doyouthinkthatby2100,IndiawillbemorelikeAmericathanIndia?
By2100,IndiawillbemorelikeanAmericanslumtothenthdegree,apoormansAmerica.Eventobecome
that,wewillhavetopayapriceintermsofshrinkageofourliberties.
Inwhatsense?
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SavarkarIsTheNewFatherOfTheEmergingIndia.GandhiIsNowTheStepfather.

Thevisionofallambitious,developingnationsistheurbanindustrialvision.OurheroisLeeKuanYew,oneof
thelastdespots.
Eveninuniversitiesyouarenowfacingdifficultiesinsayingwhatyouwantto.Itisbecomingdifficulttodeviate
fromthedevelopmentalvisioneveninnewspapercolumns.Ithasbecomedifficulttoarticulateradicaldiversities,
forwhichIndiawasknown.Evenourtraditionsarediverse.Forinstance,therearemillionsinTamilNaduand
northBengalwhoareRavanaworshippersandwhoobserveRamnavamiasadayofmourning.Whatiswrong
aboutit?InSriLanka,Ravanasbrother,Vibhishana,isworshipped.HimachalPradeshhastemplesto
Duryodhana,thevillainofMahabharata.Nobodytookoffence.
ButwearenowbeinghomogenisedinthemannerofProtestantChristianity(thatisakintosaying)Letushave
areligion.Wedidnthaveareligionassuch.Whatwehadweredharmictraditions.
Thatremindsmeofwhatyouoncewrote,HindutvaisanattackonHinduism,thatHindutvaisan
ideologyforthosewhoseHinduismhaswornoff,andthatHindutvastriumphwillmarktheendof
Hinduism.Areweheadedinthatdirection?
Yes,theHinduismthatweseearoundustodayisnot2,000or4,000yearsold.Itisjust150yearsold.Itwas
borninurbanIndia,underthenewpoliticaleconomythattheBritishRajintroduced.Thereferencepointwas
ProtestantChristianity,notCatholicism,whichisrelativelymoreopen.IcomefromaProtestantfamily.Iknow
todaysHinduismisthat.
ThefirstgenerationofRSSpracharaksmenlike(HinduMahasabhaleader)B.S.Munjeand(RSSfounder
K.B.)HedgewartooktheirinspirationfromtheRamakrishnaMission(whichwasinfluencedbyChristianity).
SwamiVivekananda(RamakrishnaMissionsfounder)washimselfaverydifferentperson.Hedidnotspeakof
IslamandMuslimsasvillains.
WhatarethebasicattributesofthisnewHinduism?Ahomogenisedreligion?
TheHinduismweseeisjust150yearsoldandwasbornintheurbanIndiaoftheRaj.Itsreferencepointis
ProtestantChristianity.
Onceyouendorsenationalism(typically,onecountry,onereligion,onelanguage),youdontevenhaveto
discussit(religion).Ithinkitwas(Ernest)Gellnerwhosaidyoudonthavetoreadthetextsofnationalism
becauseallnationalismsarethesame.Savarkarrecognisedit.Hedidnotbelieveinanything(religious).He
refusedtogiveaHindufuneraltohisownwifeandsaidthattherewasnothingsacredaboutthecow.Healso
madefunof(RSSssecondsarsanghchalak)Golwalkarsfondnessforrituals.Savarkaristherealfatherofthe
emergingIndia.Gandhiisnowthestepfather.
Gettingbacktoyouressay,doyouthinkHinduismwillfightitsbattlewithHindutva?
Yes.ThereisalwaysatacitforceinHinduismwhichrebelsagainstthiskindofdisjunctiveimposition.Civilisation
neverbendsdown,italwaysincorporatesanddigests(whatissoughttobeimposedonit).Civilisationcan
destroyastatewithoutsayingaword.ItmustberememberedthattheIndiccivilisationisdifferentfromthe
Indiannationstate,whichisaEuropeanconcoctionjust300yearsold.
IhavethisconfidencethatitisjustnotpossibletomobiliseIndiaintoahomogenisednation.Tagoresaidthereis
nonationinIndia.ThatiswhyhewrotetheEnglishwordnationinBengali.Buthehad12to15Bengaliwords
forpatriotism.Indiansarepatriotic.Butpatriotismisoftenconfusedwithnationalism.
Thenationisademandforhomogenisingthepeople,leavingtheindividualfacetofacewiththestate.Thereis
nointerfacenocommunity,noreligion,nosect,nocaste,notradeunion,simplynointermediarystructures.
Thereisjusttheindividualandthestateintheidealnationstatesystem.IdontthinkIndianswillgoforthis
beyondapoint.
SoyoufeelachallengetothisideaofnationstatewillemergefromHinduismitself.
Yes.
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DoyouthinkcastecouldbefightingHinduismsbattle?
Castehasbeensodiscreditedandsoheavilypoliticisedthatyoushouldntbetalkingofhowcasteisinfluencing
politics,buthowpoliticsisinfluencingcaste.ButcastedoesresistHindutva.ThatiswhyHindutvawallahsare
againstcastealso.Butawidervision,analternativevision,willcomethroughsectsanddiversifiedbelief
systems.
Doyouseesignsofitnow?
EverybelievingIndianisasignofthat.HindutvahasfloutedsomeofthefundamentalcanonsofHinduism.For
instance,eachpersonhasprivategodsandgoddesses,hisfamilyhasitsgodsandgoddesses,hiscommunity
hasitsgodsandgoddesses,hisvillagehasitsgodsandgoddesses,hissecthasitsgodsandgoddesses.
Inaddition,theyhavetheirpersonalpreferencesandthoughtheymaynotworshipsomegodsandgoddesses,
theydontwishtoantagonisethem.Whethertheyidentifywiththemornot,whethertheybelieveinthemornot
isirrelevant.Forinstance,HindusliketogotodargahsandtheGoldenTemple.ThisHindutvacantstop.Thisis
acompletelydifferentgame.
IfGandhiweretocometoIndiain2050or2100....
Thereisjusttheindividualandthestateinanationstatesystem.ItsnotpossibleforIndiatobeahomogenised
nation.
Majorphilosophicalpositionsdontsimplydieout.Theyautomaticallyemergeinsomesituations.Donotforget
thatthemajorheroesofthepostWorldWarIIworldhavebeenMartinLutherKing,NelsonMandela,AungSan
SuuKyi,theDalaiLamatheyarethepeoplewhoapproximated,directlyorindirectly,totheimageofGandhi.
TheydidnotnecessarilyreadGandhitotakethepositiontheydid.NordidPolishtradeunionleaderLech
Walesa,whomthePolescalled,OurGandhi.YoucanteffaceorkilltheGandhianstrand.Itwillcontinueasa
minoritystand.Perhapsacatastrophewillproduce...
Gandhi?
NotGandhi,buthundredsofvariationsofhim.Thenonlycanitbecomeamassmovement.Youwillnothaveto
waittill2100.Itwillcomeearlier.Thisisbecausewehaveenteredthelastcycleofclimatechange.Somekindof
limitstohumangreedandconsumptionwillhavetobeputinplace.OnceItriedtocountthenumberofshades
oflipstickavailable.Istoppedaftercountingtill1,200Ijustcouldnthandleit.Idontthinkourretinaiscapableof
evenregistering1,200shades.Yetwecontinuetoproducemoreshades.
Personally,Idontthinkwecanreturntoapastoralwayoflife.Butthelimitsoftheurbanindustrialvisionhave
beencrossed.Itisnotreversible.Itisasbadasthat.Whenthecrunchcomes,youwillhavetoimposelimitson
usingtheresourcesoftheEarthforthesurvivalofatleastyourchildrenandgrandchildren,evenifyouarenot
thinkingofthefuture.
In2100,whatwouldAmbedkarbelike?
Unfortunately,eventhoughAmbedkaroptedforareligionthathastremendouscongruencewiththeGandhian
past,hewasaverymodernman.Hedefinitelywantedsomeversionoftheurbanindustrialvision.Hecertainly
didnotlookbeyondit.
Youwroteanessayonhappiness.WillIndiansin2050behappy?
Itwillbedemandedofthemtonotbeunhappy.
SohowhappyIndiawillbein2100?
Rightnow,Indiansaremostlyhappy.Poorercountriesgenerallyare.Bangladeshwasquitehighonthelistof
happycountries,sowasNigeria.Indiansareonthehighersidetoo.Thecurrentfigureswillnotchangesoeasily.
Therefore,therewillbeapublicdemandtobehappy.Soifyouareunhappy,youareatraitor.Ifyouare
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unhappy,youwillbecomeaclassenemy,asithappenedintheSovietUnion.Unhappypeoplethereweresent
topsychiatrists.
Areweheadedthatway?
IamafraidthereareeffortstopushIndiainthatdirection.
(AjazAshrafisajournalistinDelhi.Hisnovel,TheHourBeforeDawn,hasasitsbackdropthedemolitionofthe
BabriMasjid)

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