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BALTIMORE NEIGHBORHOOD HERITAGE PROJECT

847 North Howard Street
Baltimore, Maryland 21201

The undersigned Informant Donor does hereby give and grant to the
Baltimore Neighborhood Heritage Project, as a donation to its archival
collection, the material listed below. I also authorize the University of

~I
Baltimore to use said material for the purpose of research, according to the
educational and historical objectives of the Baltimore Neighborhood

-
Heritage Project. In the event the university decides to discard the materials

~
donated, the donor (or hislher family) must be notified and the material
returned,

formant Donor -
3812 r S&C,O.T
Addreea af Informant Donor

Addreas of Intervi
at of raement

Description of Materials: One tape

INTERVIEWER: Rosewin Sweeney
PROJECT: Baltimore Neighborhood Heritage
DATE@) OF 1979. 7.27 PLACE@) OF office
INTERVIEW: INTERVIEW:

GENERALTOPIC(S) OF INTERVIEW:

Highlandtown politics, politicians, political clubs, trends.

OF THE INTERVIEW
CIRCUMSTANCES [PLACES, O ~ S E N TAND ~
~ R PS I =LATIONSHIP
R TO m INFO-, ETC.]

The interview took place in DiPietro's City Council Office.

There were several interruptions but no one stayed for the interview.
Phones can be heard ringing in the background and at one point the Councilor
uses a pencil sharpener.

PARTS
OF PARTICULAR VALUE[TOPICS DSISCUSSD W GFSATES DETAIL, AFS.4 OFPARnCULAR EXPERTISE, ETC.]

The main value of the tape is as an assessment of the Highlandtown political scene
by an insider.
DePietro has been active in politic since the twenties, however, he was not prominent
until the sixties and therefore did not give orders but took them from those who
were more powerful.

GENERALEVALUATION
[=LIABILITY OFINFOFNANT, INFOFNATION CONTAUiD ONTAPE, ETC.]

Basically reliable but not really specific information.

His perception of the situation now (e.g. with community groups) is colored by his
old-time political orientation.
That orientation is of great interest. Since the politics of Highlandtown are
changing the "Old Guard" interpretation is of value.

Perhaps pursue the relation of Highlandtown etnics to ethnic groups closer to

downtown (Poles in Fells Point and Italians in Little Italy).
DiPietro is more interested in talking about the present than the past.
 Dominic "Mimi" DiPietro
1 ADDRESS: 3812 Claremont St. 1
I
DATEOF BIRTH: 1905 1 PLACE
OF BIRTH: Abruzzi, Italy

1 RELIGION: Roman Catholic 1

1 26th Ward Democratic Club 1

PREVIOUS
RESIDENCES:
LIST YEARS:

~ ~ C H O O L I N GAND/OR
LIST

-
TRAINING:
OTHER

6th grade

OCCUPATIONS:
(EMPLOYMENT, VOLUNTEER OR MILTARY SERVICE) LIST YEARS:
Bethlehem Steel Corp. 1918-1936
City of Baltimore -
liaison with contractors
book bindery superintendent
Councilor
 NAME:
DATEOF BIRTH: RACE
OF BIRTH: Italy
RELIGION: Roman Catholic HER OCCUPATION:

HER MOTHER: RACE

OF BIRTH:

HER FATHER: RACE

OF BIRTH:

FATHER'S
NAME:
DATEOF BIRTH: RACE
OF BIRTH: Italy
RELIGION: Roman Catholic HIS OCCUPATION: Baker
HIS MOTHER: RACE
OF BIRTH:

HIS FATHER: RACE

OF BIRTH:

SIBLINGS:
LIST DATESOF BIRTH:

1 DATE 1966
OF WAGE: 1 RACEMARRIAGE:
OF Baltimore 1
1 SPOUSE'SOCCUPATION:housewife

1 LIST DATESOF BIRTH: 1

 *
Name of Interviewee: Dominic W . n i w Dl metro
Site: Righlandtown
Name of Interviewer: Rasewin Sweeney
Date of Interview: 7/27/79
Place of Interview: City Council Office ..9

Pietro: Part of it, yes, When Baltimore C i t y took over,

I don't know what year t h a t was, I never could,,.
Sweeney: 1918.
Di Pietro:'l918, No, it was later than t h a t , wasn't it?
1918, was it? It possibly could have been, yes, 1918. Cause

we had people coming from -1,;. - to East Avenue into Highland-

town because they could d r i n k there, and they couldn't drink
on the o t h e r side. On one side o f East Avenue you c o u l d
d r i n k , on the o t h e r side, you couldn" drink. And a l l them
people mould come up t o Highlandtown t o drink, cause it was
a county then.
Sweeney: ;Pas Jack Ofconnor the boss over there a t that p o i n t ?
I know h i s bar was l i k e a hotspot for p o l i t i c a l activity.

Di Pietro: Jack OvConnor, Jack OVonnnor, no, no, it wasn't

Jack 0' Connor, .
Sweeney: Re died, lfke in 1923, but he m a y have passed out
of things before you really became a c t i v e .
M Pietro: Yeah, that's right, yeah, before 3 rose, 1923,
h e l l , / l d be eighteen years o l d .
Sweeney: There's a guy named, I think, Willlam lflpand than
Frank Dotterwiech. Both of them had been a c t i v e , when it was
in t h e county.
Di Psetro: Active, active. Well no, they wasn't a c t i v e , they
were--Rank Dotterwiech, he had a place right far up the John
Booth Recreation Center there. And he had some homes on Eaton
 S t r e e t , and then he awned a11 t h e back o f it, Te had a horse-
*
shed down t h e r e , them days, you know, and he aas a contractor.
Yeah, I can t e l l you a story about him, yeah. He rind up being
nothing, broke, I don't k n o w what the h e l l ha d i d with his
t
money after he became councilman. Out o f the business, got a
job 1~3ththe city and the - ' Street Yard, it was c a l l e d
then, as a clerk, then he passed away.
was
Sweeney: Now,/the reason t h a t a r e a vas Regublican because*
r e a l l y German, and then when Gore gr?sru,as cane in, it g o t more
Democratic.
Di Pietso: Vell, we extended Znto the county, see, and t h e
. county was a Republican County that time, and so everything
was a turmofl. People who took over, anyhow, they were Repub-
licans, and they was mong his followers.
. -
~weeney: You 'mentioned someone named, ~ 6 h nh e r , in t h e Sun * i

article I read about. He was a German active in the Republican

Party, klnd of a competitor.
W . , ' ,

M Pietro: Oh, but he lived in there, he Mr. h e r ,

John, as you got h i s first name, 1 don't have it, Mr. Amer,
T always called him I4r. h e r . He was impressive, ha was...

I can tell you a little story.

',?e had these voting booths at the time, about as big as

my icebox there, They were that hPgh, but they a little desk
l i k e t h i s here, and you had your paper and pencil, and then
I?--. 2
L.

they got a l i t t l e swinging door here, and I used t o h o e that -,' ..

old l a d y and old+man r e a l good, t h a t was working for. 3 was

a young kid, and well, I used t o open the swinging door: up,
and crept in there w h i l e y ~ uwas in there, and IFd g e t on my
 D I PTET30;120 f:1:3
knees you know, and I ' d see you work, and thatfs hard t o get
upderneath t h a t doggone thing, because.then they could see
you. And so, what they would get a ticket and went in, and
'

I h i d there, you b o w , and then I went mound here, like t h i s here,

the onee sese at, end tore the ticket up. I g o t caught, Mr.
Green, that's who caught me. My Gad, Hr, Green grabbed me,
like this, with one hand, h'e was tough, He put me behind a stone
wall. He said, ?"f you do t h a t again. " That :'la& t h e end of it,
Sweeney: But they were doing it t o o ?
Dl Pietro: XQ, no. That ~ l lady
d w ~ u l d n f tl e t them go I n t o
t h a t house. I was young, t h a t old lady liked me. They were
German people, t o o . :7e g o t t h e T.:?. Club there now. I never
d i d it no more. f never d i d it no more. That guy gra.bbed me.
s h o v e d me up against the wall and said "you little 'Wop'- i f I
ever catch you doing that again. . .
Sweeney: How old were you when t h i s happened? You must have
been pretty l i t t l e , then.
M Pietro: No, I w a s n q tittle, my eye, I was chunky. I
was a ehlny businessman, with a great big m z n , And V ! ,

Green, he l i o e d on Mt. Pleasant Avenue. He pfcked me up,

he picked me up and shoved me agaLnst that w a l l , Oh, and
he put h i s hand on my throat, and he wanted t o hit me. I
hollered, ttDonft hit me, Mr. Green, don't h i t me,, I won't do
it no more. V l l behave, (laughs). iTe used t o play aLX k i n d

of tricks on e~erybody.
Sweeaey: There arentt many Republicans l e f t over there, a n p o r e .
Di. Pietro: . ;Ye don" have t o ROW. 'Je don1 t have t o now. Be
don't have. to.
Sweeney: Ah, I guess thereps cornpetitinn amon3 the Democrats.
 M. Pietro: Thatfs competition mang the Democrats.
Sweeney: Okay, 1 read about a lot of Nfferent p o l i t i c a l clubs
fn East Baltimore, f read about Ren Preller's 26th Ward
Democratic Club, and then I read about,.,- 4'

M Pietro: Who?
Sweeney: Hen Preller, the Ren Preller Club, and then f read
about yours*, the one t h a t you helped found.
M. Pietro: No, no, we still have one, yeah.
Sweeney: But that started out being an Stallan-American Club.
Di Pietro: 1 remember, that goes back some g e m s . It was an
Italian-American Democratic Club.
* Sweeney: Oh.
M Pietro: mat's *hat 5 t was, an Italian-American Democratic
Club, and well we had a l o t of people, that was a c t i v e then,
. .- -- . . . . - .-. . - . - --. " -. ""-

Galleors active, and the, ah, forget - h i s name. &,'%otter

was active then, and then, another big contractor was active.

It waa a11 c o n t r a c t o r s was active in clubs in them days.

Sweeney: Probably because of the connections t o the eftp An
f srms a f winning con tracts.
M Pietro: That's r i g h t . Yell, I donrt know what I t was for.
S~eeney: Ny grandfather used to be a contractor,
M metro: Well, that's r i g h t , They were a Lumber of poli-
. t i c i a n s , yeah. But yeah, .t h e Italian-American ~ e m o fatic
c Club
o f the city.
. Sweeney: Md you have t a be Italian t o get into this parti-
cular club?
M Pietro: Italtan-American, all, Italian and American now.'
Sweeney: Oh, you d l d n r t have t o be of Italian descend?
M Pietro: No, anybody, It was an Italian orlgfnated, b u t '
 bf PIETRQ;l20 121:s
it was, r e 1st the Americans in, but what the hel1,'what did
them old men cars. They didn't care,
Swaeney: I ask because in the ffrst ward, they
.
had a--ah,
&

the first wwd Democratic Club--was a polish Club, and I'm

curiaue to whether, the club started out being one ethnlc
group, and then......
M Pietro: It was ethnic, Italian-American Denocratic Club,
m a t was the name of t h e club. And then, now, l a t e r on In
years, why they--I joined that club, but we had the Columbus
Peaocratic Club zround there. 'Ie had the Robinson Street
Democratic Club, and we had t h e P a t Feebleyls Democratic Club,
and so, in the f o r t i e s I t h i n k , I s t a r t working towards the
goal o f consolidating them all, and making one big club.
Then another guy cane In, t!arcratelli, he had a b l g club. He
just formed a clu'b all aver the s t a t e . Be c a l l e d h f s s e l f ,
the S t a t e Democratic Club, t h e Italfan State Democratic Club, I

and that was a mushroom club, and it wind up gone and then I i
took t h a t over. So we can talk about it. 1
Sweeney: How about the Clipper Club like the Hlghlandtown Club,
and ?
IM Pietro: Well, the Clipper Club used t a be the Potomae
Club once, and I t used to be, I forgot the name of it, and then
later on in years, when (buzzer goes off) f c a n ' t remember
names too w e l l ,
Sweeney: I think you were talking about the different clubs,

and the Clipper Club was the l a s t one. That was the role of
those clubs? They were nore important in the past t h a n they
a r e now.
 Di Pietro: IJo, they. ',?ell,X think they're just i i p o r t a n t
.
now as they ever was. Sure, because ;ve had men in there, The
Democrat clubs bas a l l men, and these o t h e r .t h i n g s t h a t they
i

have t o d a y , theyfre men and women together. Of course we d i d

have a l a d i e s auxiliary Democratic club. Ye still g o t some o f
them yet. But, I thought t h e clubs in them d a y s , well, they
were clubs of clubs, and they talked about c l e d n g their
neighborhood. They talked about getting t h i n g s done for t h e
neighborhood. In them days, it was very little to g e t done,
and they were more political sinded than these people are, these
community civic zroups are, because a c i v i c group cRn start up
1

over night, And one lady can go out and g e t f o u r , f i v e , s i x ,

t e n people, and g e t a boundary Tine, and a ~ k et h e i r boundary
line. They say they control that group. That's all well and
good. Thatts nothing wrong with t h a t . But they're there f o r a
1
motive, and, that's it. %re a club, they g e t nembers a l l
over the city of Baltimore, and they t r y tg help a11 over the
city of Baltimore, and whatever. Llke say, a group of fello\vs
would come I n t o the club t h a t I ' m president of, the Untted
Democratic Club of the twenty-sixth ward.
Tell, w e got people t h a t l i v e s in the firet &strict, and
the first ward, They wasn't getting enough things done for
them. They coma in as a group, five or six. They had an 3.n-
put into the club, and they came in, and every first day of
the month, they come in with complaints and they w a n t thle
done and they w a n t that done. Naturally, I ' m the president,
they give it to me and I see that it gets done. J w r i t e back
to them, or f report back t o them the next meetlng, and of
 bf PLTTRO;120 I:1:7
course, we're not f i g h t i n g anybody, and nobody is frightened
of these improvenent assaciations, All they're worrying about
They should g e t into t h e fuhdamental p ~ s t
of the neishborhood, the functions of the neighborhood, t o get
r i d of the rats, and the dog feeces, 2nd the cockroaches that's
in these _ n ~ o p l e s 'hones. ;Yo, t h y d m f t do t h a t ,
saeeney: They"e kind g f s i n g l e issue zroups, more or Less,
Di Pietro: '.'!el?., they%rc. ; : w e o f ur5n.n renewal, people, that's
all. They "re laoktng fqr rene-::xl. The;r uant t o change t h a t
zoning. Theyfre nore zone--ah, 1 dsnrt h o w -:$hat to tell you
about it--but they think t o o much of zoning. They don't want

no industry in t h e i r neighborhoods. They d b n t t want t h i s in

the neighborhoods, ',;Rere Xn the hell w e we going t o get o u r
tax d o l l a r s , if vie don't 3ut industry someplace?
I d ~ n f nesn
t snokesteck industry, b g t the li&t industry
as I think every neighborhood should have light industry in
it. Because I have a l o t of i t fn my nefghborhood, mcl
I ' m surrounded ~ t i t hheavy industry, and gee whiz, and I thin!<
everybody, The? shouldnft be just f ~ i g h t e n e dthat t h e y a n w t
want c e r t ~ . i npeople t o come to t h e nel~hborhood t o rent, and
they up, A use is a use, 2nd its a lot of things
that can come into, li-ke for instance, the B 2 , 2 , , l i k e that's
in my neighborhood right now. Bell, they say, you can put a
f i s h market t h e r e , you can bring a theatre In there, and you
can bring a bowling alley in there. You can bring a market
in there, you can bring a church in there. These wdesireable
churches t h a t we have a l i t t l e b l t of, and itt& just a front,
and d l , that kind of things. And l i k e , 1 fought everybody
 91 ~mm;120 1:i:a
in m y neighborhood ;vhen we :yere first zoning, and I,had
S.E.C,O. [Southeast Community Organization) down there, fight-
ing m e f o r the place t h a t I l i v e d In. The boundary line was
from Bank t o Lombard, from Cooman on the-mest aide t o Raven
1
Street, and I mads all that B 1,2, The reason that I made tbat
d 1 E 1,2 w a s because I had people t h a t was taking in stalling,
some people was takfng in washing, sone people were using t h e
Front of t h e i r house, because t h e father d i e d or t h e mother
died, and they 7::ould ilse it f o r o f f i c e space. People make
income t a x , or sone lawyer ; ~ s n tt q c i n e in t h e r e , and use the
office f o r sane l d n d o f incone ta.x pirrposes or samething
l i k e that. Insurance, you know, and of c o u r s e , they had a
group, the neighbor S.3.C.O. had a group of geople, and mas
fighting me risht down t h e l i n e , so I had t o c a l l everybody
- - . .

in that area. I took a block a n i g h t , and I even had the ma-

yor down there,
I had t h e zoning master, ?.*r.
Bob Denpslri, the zoning
commkssioner. He was dovm t h e r e because t o show the people
that I was doing things r i g h t , and every n i g h t when we met
w i t h United Denocratfc Club o f the twenty-sixth ward, and we
had the v o t e s there, And, of course, would come and they were
going t o bring. fishing marxets down there, Te were going t o
bring high on mighty trucks. Y e l l , you just c a n ' t - bring trucks
in there, because we're surrounded. *Re*re bound& by a little
neighborhood which don't go to EasteFn Avenue. We went as
far as Lombard Street, and we taken that out of it. We've
made a l l of t h a t i n d u s t r f a l . But in the center of tbat, we
- wanted t e keep ?:hat we had, and n o t h i n g h a s changed t h a t whole
 whilb ive were there, ;lobody h a s carne in, The only s t o r e
*
came in was Santsai. Santoni came In there because he mas
wanted by the neighborhood. He expanded because t h e neighbor-
hood wanted him to expand, .4,

1
Sweeney: And he did h i s job.
M Pietro: Thatls right, and t h a t " the k i n d of people that
come in there. The clubs, w e l l , then they do a lot of other
€kings th& these irnnrovernent associations doesnrt do. Of
course, the improvement a s s o c i a t i o n wanted to build perks,
recreation, and t h i n g s of t h a t sort, and t h e Democratic Club
n l t work t h a t way, The Democratic C l u b works f o r the party.
Sweeney: So t h e clubs, they are a good w a y to mo3iIize the

voters, a better way r e a l l y t h a n a c i v i c association?

Di Ptetro: Oh yes, Oh yes, because they're political minded,
.-, . -
and they'"al& bring the speakers, the depmtment speairkrs
from d i f f e r e n t departments, t h e y bring t h e m in.
Svreeney: I wanted t o ask you about, I b o w that in the first
district f o r a long time, 'Jillie Curran was..,
Di Pietro: Yeah, he was the leader, and he has a n o t h e r club,
I forgot h i s name, trillis Curran and Bob E n n i s , them t ~ were
o
t h e leaders, and then Bob Ennis passed away, and YJillie
Curran was the leader, and he led the first d l a t r i c t , and he
llved'in fhe first district, and in the first ward, I mean,
and he was 'itrang. Then thare &a DIAles.zndso, when Dv Ales-
andro wanted t o run for mayor, that'& when WLllle Curran and
the party s p l i t up., Be had a break In h i s party, and he went
his way ahd everybody wanted D'Alesanctro went their way. And

o f course, t h a t split the organization up, and then made us,

 DI PIrn20;120 1:1:10
it was first, and Jackson, he had a garty f i r s t d i a -
trict, and ',?lllie C u r r ~ nhad t h e rest.
Swoenay: f e l l , 5 know, w e l l t h a t Curran die9 in 1960, and I
know that d f f e r b e r t and Dl Alesandro.. ... '

M Pletro: Vell, no, Curran went o u t the window when PIAles- I

m d r o ran f o r magor and beat him in the first d i s t r i c t . And
i
then Cum& was finished in the first district, D'Alesandro i
1

took all hia cohorts away from him, and he picked up the other
cohorts that he had, and because they followed t h e mayor of
I
Baltimore City, and that was it in "7.
Sweeney: So, technically, Curran was washed up in t h e first i
I

d i s t r i c t in '47.
Dl Pfetro: Yeah, in ' 4 7 , a f t e r that, I don't think he p u t a I
1
'ticket up a f t e r a l l . . .. " - --. . -

Sweeney : 'Zauld he still. have had same power with OtCo.n.or, o r

d i d he have any power l e f t l i k e elsewhere in the city?
Di Fletro: Wo, Orconor was gone. OIConor was gone there be-
.cause, I ,think, ; X l l i e Curran took over from O'Conor in the
first d i s t r i c t . 3f course, tbey h8.d t h e t e n t h ward, the OVonor
p e ~ p l ehad then, that's the Governor OfCon.or, all the frlsh-
men w e ~ tup there. But Wtllie Curran, I thlak, i'fillie Curran
was >hk man. 0 ' Conor was there before Willie Curran.
Sweeney: I think t h a t C u r r a n might have furthered O'Conorts
career, actually l o r the S t a t h r s Attorney, and then on.
M Pbetso: Yeah.
Sweeney: I donlt think Curran had OfConor in his pocket or
anytbing .
M Pietro: No, nobody had. Hobody. He was independent
 Sweeney: I wanted t o remember t o ask you about political
cooperation. Now, as a comcilman, l a there a tendency for
people t o go, s a y , Italian-American people iq the first d i s -
t r i c t , do tKwy c a l l you or do they feel free t o call another
district person?
Di P i e t r o : They'll c a l l anybody e l s e . m e y l l l call anybody
who they f e e l free t o call. They'll c a l l a f r i e n d of theirs,
t h a t r s ;vho t h e y call.
Sweeneg: 3as coo2eration betneen r l i f f n r e n t ethnic g r o u p been
a s t a n d a r d in Hi~hlcmdto;vn, o r is that s m e t h i a g that starting
with t h e D e y e s s i o n , or you h o w , a t some particular period?
I

Yere the g r ~ u p sr i v a l s ever? I

1
Di Pietr~: h'o, well there is some 1;:provement association 1
don1.t aant to do something with the other iwprovernetlt assocta- "

I
tion thatfs a f f i l i a t e d rvith a n o t h e r orgsnization, and you gat i
some independent inprovement ~ s s o c i ~ t i o n s t h adonqt
t want to be
a f f i l i a t e d with S,E,C.h, or N.E.C.0, or whatever you call them.
%%at's the o t h e r one's name? There's S.E.C.O., N.E.C.O., and
E.A.R.B,E,L. They didn't aant t o be affiliated with them, and
they run on their own independent party, and they do things.
f guess they get the same money right now, as the S.E.C.0,
people gets, 'but only the S.E.C.O. people more q u a l i f i e d t o
run through these t h i n g s and get more s t u f f out for the neigh- .

borhood groups, but somehow the nother, they st- with S.E.C.O.
f o r a wllile, then they leave. I don't know why.
Sweeney: But none of tha.5 on an e t h n i c b a s i s , In the p a s t ,
l i k e when you were active, was it in t h e fifteenth precinct,

in the twenty-fifth precinct , In tile t\lfenty-sixth ward?

 Swecney: f know that you had an advant5.ge becnuse you c o u l d
speak Italian.
M Pietro: Oh, yea, I had a J o t of, ..y es...fll t h a t was the
- 1
other days though.
Sweeney: Thatfs what I mean,
M Pietro: Yeah, f had the advantage Da them people. Then
tAey sere in Ifne, I talked ts them Italisn. Of course, t h e
Germam hnd the same 3.dvantage over me. They used t o talk in
German, but the o t h e r nan, he was t h a n me.
I took chances that Hofferbert, he :ltouldnft, and very seldom I
F
, that he wnuld t a l k in German t o i ~ e o p l ewhofse fn line. Them
days we used t o have TPnes, because it wasn't no voting machlnes i
there, it was a hand ballot you had t o fill out. And it took
- .. -
lot of them elderly people a Long time t o vote. And we used I:
. .
t o a l l o n f i v e nlinutes in the booth t o v o t e . And sometimes vre
didn't close the pools tfll nine ofclock because we s t i l l had i
I
lines.
Sfleeney: So anyone who, say was ? d i s h , would have had an a d -
aantage a-ongst the Polish?

D-2. P i e t r o : Rmon~stthe Polish, naturally, but you don't even

- - hear of them. I never heard of them because I never ekpanded
until later on in years (buzzer) till D*Alesandro g o t t o be mayor.
* Sweeney: i'fhen do you thin!! you started cooperating with p e o p l e ,
l i k e Staszak, geople outside of your p a ~ t i c u l ~ a r . . ...
M Pietro: Yell Staazak come on Later on in years,
Sweeney: In the fifties, say.
Dl. ? i e t r o : ' ~ e , and Hafferbsrt,amd mayor D.vAl.esanh, and a guy
 by the name of Jerome Butler, a guy by the name of B i l l Flynn...
Sweeney: Re was in t h e first ward.
..
Dl Pietro: Re was the ward executive of the twenty-sfxth ward,
*a
And he was q r leader, and then we had-oae, a ward executive
of the first ward, was Joe G r a h a m , another f e l l e r . Then we
had anather f e l l o w that was precinct execatfve in the second II

ward, John Simon and Sam Jarosinki, and he had a group of

-
people wltk him, but then we had Polhaus, he was in there. And
I say, we had a l o t of good leaders,

Sweenay: I guess you really couldn't afford to compete t o o

much because there were so many diverse elements,..
M Pietro: Well, as you see, when we broke, when
pulled away from Curren, w e l l , that way we had to join a new

. - .. .
organization.
.- . - had to go out and b u i l d somebody, and*b u i l d
'iVe
an organization, and it was just me and then Butler came on
l a t e r on, and we built the twenty-sixth ward, and Tonmy was
b u i l d i n g in bf s o m humble way, and ~ollock'was b u i l d i n g f o r
t h e mayor, too, But we was woridng more f o r the first district,
and we organized t h a t d i s t r i c t , and that's when me had ts t a k e
these people away from Y i l l i e Curran, and then Hofferbert came
in, and supported the mayor. .Now, he was a b i g man tn the
curran faction, Gri he
I
, and f don" tow .

mhich one he went to at that time. But anyhow, he cams over

with us, $nd.that settled everthing, and then we were the s o l l d
first, the powerful f i r s t , because we had the power and we took
the power away from other people. W i l e Palmtsano lost a l l h i s
cronies t h a t he had. They joined D1Al*esandro and the Curram lost
they had in the f i r s t ward. They joined t h e DrALesandro faction,
They nade nne big organization, and it sas just, thbm d a y s ,
.
ffll tell you what you d i d when you fought somebody In the
primary, and your candidate didn't vin. You.-Pnever worked in a
i
general, b e q u s e ...,But today , 'the hell, they whip
you today, and tomorrow you try t o go out and make 'em Your

friande. Well, them days, thmfm .that was your enemy in the
primary, you j u s t dfdn" put them ta work in t h e general elec-
-
tion.
I
That16 how politics rsn the^ d a p , end I thought poli-
tics went real good them days. It ?7snf t no harrassing, no
heckling, everybody stood beyond the line, and you %now, it I
dfdnpt need t o o nany police in d i f f e r e n t places. Now, today, I
you got everybody In I t , and n a t u r e l f y , t h i n g s - - o f course t h e
money s rmre. - deFendab'le today--than it z s s then,.'
f - - . -

You take, in 1929, I got nine doll~rsf i r s t to run the

p r e c i n c t , and then in 1929, I 20% f i f t e e n d o l l a r s to r u n t h e
precinct.
Sweeneg: Is that like walk around money':
M Pietro: Yes, to p u t t h e guys 2nd l a d i e s on t o work, and na-
turally, 5 put k i d s on, I didnmt know the difference; I had
kids, so re put on all ourselves. Ye were working them days,
and some of them was working, some of them wasn't, So T thought
it was a great deal. I thought a b i g horray for me t o go out
and say, "Mary, how about you worklng for me? >oseph, I ' m
going to let you work this precinct, I sot the credentials
here, ft
ITell, I was a big m a n in them days, and a man who d i d
t h a t , he was looked a t . Today, people that does that kind o f
 DI P I ~ : I ~ 1:1:15
O
work there, I don't know, people think theycre a buhch of
6 -

hoboes, but they're not. They got their heart and soul in
it. But we got a different kind of people thatts livtng in
,.*.
t h i s world today, than what lived them dTays. T o d a y , we g o t
more ethnic groupa andlmore im_nrovernent associations. But
we had some good clubs l e f t in the d i s t r i c t , and of course,
they
*.
produce, and you ought to come to some of then neetings,
sometime, and youtll see ft.
a
o!yeenej-: I ' d like to,
Di ?ietra: St's a l t o g e t h e r them an inprovenent association,
The p r e s i d e n t runs t h e club x i t h an iron hz-nd. I guarantee
you t h a t if you n e r e an outsider, you w i l l not be shoved a-
round, you won't be cussed at, and you won't be i n s u l t e d . I
seen the mayor onetime, went"to an ingrovenent. zssociation,. :

he gets insulted. YVhat f o r ?

And in t h e Denacratic Club everybody can't c3ne in, un-

less you are invited or you belong t o that c l u b , Now, t h e
inprovenent associations welcome everybody, they put it %n
the shopper's guide, OF send letters o u t to people that they
are going to h a ~ ea meeting. That opens the meeting up for
anybody who wants t o go qut and heckle somebody.
Sweeney: And they do.
Di metro: Yes, they d o , and it shouldn't be allowed. I*'
shouldn't be allowed, because the politicians when they go
in there t o try to make hay, ah, with some of thein nice pea-
, p l e r s that's in there, the president ahouldnft allow it, And,
of course, some people .:11len they g e t , they don't a l l o w p o l i t i c s
 DI P I ~ R O ; ~ Z O1:1:16
*
talk in 'ex anyhow. And therefs another thing, I think t h a t
they should,,.allom. 3ecause ~ 9 L i t i c sis elected o f f i c i a l s ,

and that's how you know .:ihose t h e r f g b t e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l , and

whose n o t t h b r i g h t elected official, You should invite t h e
elected off1ciaJ.s down t o your a f f a i r , and you should i n v i t e
t h e people who they want t9 come there. Vat open it up f o r 1
I

&very Tom,-Dick and Berry t o go in there, and talk bad about i

a c e r t a i n candidate becluse h e % got a aoedetta against him. 1
I
I
It% sot f a i r t o the e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l , and they should have
about fifteen minutes of comment at any given meeting, because
they need us, Without us, they're ainmt nothing.
Sweeney: You're the one t h a t votes in the Cfty Council.
M Hetro: That's r i g h t , Ue passed their ordknance. We don't
- have t o pass no ordinance f o r them girls and f e l l o w s , ana we
have to go along w-Lth them, which we do, because the majority
of the time, they're right. And we g3 along wfth t h e improve-
ment association, But they should play 'a l i t t l e b i t of 2ali-
tics, and they do anyhow, but officially they ~ h o u l ddo it,
SxEteeney: Come out in the aFen about it.
Di Tietro: That's r i ~ h t ,nnd these people t h a t say they d a n t t
belong t o a
(END TAPE I SIDE 1 ; BEGIN TAPE n I D E 2)
Di P i e t r o : They say t w o ' s empang, three's a crowd, When
more than one I s company, t h r e e i s a crowd. It" a group, a
group.
Sweeney: IToe Smbara K.Ii;culski r e a l l y had her p o l i t i c a l be-
ginnings in kind of a civio association, and she cane around
bzsicaffy.
DL Pietro: B a r b a r a FEkulski started to be a c i v i c leader,
and Barbara H k u l e k i rent to all ctvic leadera, a l l ciric
affairs. 'Ilhey were all for her, And now, that
. was a bunch
A
;

of cZvic grmps, a c i v i c bunch of people ' t h a t was c i v i c minded,

and they were a l l for Barbara TfikuXs'd, Tasnrt they political, ;

sure they were. They say tkey v(asnpt, what a damn liar they
l,fere. Deep dovm their h e a r t , they Zcnow tkey were. They were
f o r t h a t person.
Sneeney: She e v e n t u a l l y s o t the sup;ort o f t h e organizations,
and... .
M Xetro: Yes, she d i d , bec2use Barbara skoued her h o w how,
and she h e n what she was doing, and that's why t h e political
organizations supmrted her, yeah, Our o r g a n i z a t i o n supported
Barbara, the second tine she ran, sure. . 3e supported her for 1
I
United S t a t e s Senator, too. And then we supported her for Con- !
gress,
Sneeney: EoFferbert, There was a big split between, ah,,..,.
M. Pietro: Well, Raiferbert. That's when the Staszak and
Bofferbert crowd split, yes.
Sweeney: You had talked about women involved in p o l i t i c s ,
She's klnd of unique In East Baltimore in that respect, but
more women are getting involved, arenvt they, than had been
in the past?
Di Pietro: Well, women workers now. Yeah, But the wornens
a r e i n v o l v e d in civic center work, instead of I n Democratic
clubs. The Democratic c l u b s i s fading out part of the wornens'
auxiliary clubs are. Because they don't entice the younger
g i r l s that come in, and its a group of l a d i e s , they s t a y to-
 gether, and thatfs i t r *

Sreeney: Did you ever know Alice eno oh^:

M Hetro: Yes, oh yes, very much so. Ber club is s t i l l in
rQ'

o p e r a t i o n , v r political club.
Sweeney: Rers"was.an auxillary, a womens auxillary..,.
Dl Pietro: Yes, a woman's auxill~ryin the tventy-sixth ward.
Sweeney: ~ l o c a l politics.
She got be r e a l l y b i in
6 Pietro: :'/ell, she cas n a t i o n a l comitteevtornan, ~ n dafter
th?.t, she g o t n hold, she was yrenfrlent of the T n l t e d :;'omen
of t h e B t a t e of :'aryll;nd, ?he --;za Sn I t s i n c e then. ;7ell,
Alice Conales mas a good lady. A l i c e Conoles v~orkedhard for
' She even x~rked f o r t h e 3epublican Party, She didn't
peogle.
care. The Derrocrat's :varked t h e scme ::lay. They hoped to change
them over, I changed z few Begublfcans over this yeer t o vote
. - - . - .-

f o r ne.
Sweeney: Oh, I see, She worked hard f o r Republican voters.
I thought you meant for 2epublican candidates.
M Pietro: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Republican people who
vb t es Republican, yeah. !7e don t change endorsed Xeyublicans.
Therefs a rule that a list of candfdates l a awful, awful
bad, or he don't want t o have nothing t o do r i t h them. CertgJs
bunch of people, =ell, they w a n t ' t o get fntsrssted in the elect-
-
ion, so they bring out the* o m candidates, and go wherever
they want t o go, and nobpdy s t o p s them, men if you are a
Democrat you can endorse a Republican that's runnlng. That don't
make no harm.
Sweeney: Did sha really carry much weight as a roman? I know
 she became active In the twenties.
M Pietro: Who?
Sweeaey: Canoles,
DL Pietro: ?II yeah, sure. She had Mayor J ~ ~ Lwherever
OII
ehe ranted. She could make Mayor Jackson do mythlng. Oh
ye&.
Sweeney: dust because she h a d , , . .
Pietro: And then she had Governor 09Conor. She was a good
f r i e n d of Governor OaConor 7131en he g o t t o be Zovernor. And
Eiss Canoles was a good I z d y , 8 good persgn. She g o t up in
the morning drewfng about p o l i t i c s , and she went t o s l e e p : d t h
' politfcs, and she was intervieiving people in her own home, Loo.
Every day she was helgZng 2eo2le out,
Sweeney: 1 rm not sure if it was Alice Canoles.- - I- . think
- there
might have been a a m a n nayed Diane Canoles in East tim more,
I l n n o t sure but was ekther this Canofes or a n o t h e r one a c t i v e
during the Depression, hel2ing people out?
M Pietro: No, I donlt remeaber, 170, no. d i c e Canoles was

the o n l i e s t one.
Sweeney: That's all I r e a l l y had pregared to ask of you.
or stay anything about the state of p o l i t i c s in
mghlandtown today.
Pietro: Rell, Righlandtown still got the same clout that it
had, and of course, we didn't do t o o goad l a s t election, but
metre going t o do reax goad t h i s election. I think we're going
win everything t h i s election. J u s t because gome time you don't
have the right man, and, there are , and the guys tqok
t o Rarry,
-
Hughes. I s l l , that h a ~ g e n sonce in every twenty years,
or every century it happens, but it d m f t happen o f t e n ,
3b:ecne;~: It doesn' t h ~ p en
; just in ?ighlnndto;Qm,
M Tietro: It doesn*t hap;en over a11 the s t a t e of h r y l a n d ,
either, It doesnrt hapgen. It hagpened in Hishlandtom, and
it happened all over the s t a t e a ~ a l n ,and the poYer t o be, and
I don't thim the clubs a r e out o f circulation. 1 don't think
they lest t h e i r power. T think they got the power. They got
the clout m d I t h i n k theyfre gging t o come back, and f think
they're
-. gowa to get some action in their organization.
Sweeney: Do you think t h a t these c i v i c groups are going t a
have any l s , s t i n g e f f e c t in the aay tbin,as run over there, or
are they just Mad of a f l a s h in the ?an?
Di ?f etro: Over where?
Sweeney: In East Baltiaore.
I
Dl 'Tietro: Oh, no. Theyrre gonna be around. I
I

Sweeney: They change the aay things work.

Di c i e t r o : Oh yes. They change t h e working of the p o l i t i c d
~ubdivlsion, yes, a whole lot. They chanced t h a t because they
have meetings once a month, and ltke 1 said, they're always
lookfng o u t f o r zoning, and urban renewal, and of course, when
the urban renewal staps, t h e n T don't 'mov~ hat game they're
going t o play then.
Sweeney: They'll find one.
Dl Pietro: Y e l l , if they f i n d one, then maybe itfll be p o l i t i c s ,
or maybe ittll be another w o r l d coming In, another trend, and
we will go towards that way, B u t I don't cars who the organiza-
t i o n are, they always need e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s t o help them out.
WLthout tha clout of the elected official, they g e t nothing.
I don't c a r e whether they go t o the president, the govsradr, or
the mayor. They'll never get no b i l l s passed unless they got
the repre~entativeof that d i s t r i c t t o h a l p them out.
Swseney: M t h i n the first d i s t r i c t is one ward stronger than
,.a
mother, o r s i k e the Sun says, the twenty-sixth ward i s strong-
er, which may be true. But in the past would you say it waa
the f i r s t one?
M Pietro: The first ward was the stronger in years t o be,
.
before, but then when the tsienty-sixth vard got big, and we
took the county gver, thez t'ne twenty-z3.xth l : ~ ~ bs i ~ g e r . And
t h e n , when vte expsnded ten y w r s s g o , I think, no e i g h t years
ago, we took xore c l o u t , the first d i s t r i c t nont ~ u where
t the
grass is green, nnd we took f i f t e e n !:ore 2recincts, and t h a t
made the twenty-slxth ward bigger. And that r s what P t is, where

the twenty-sixth ward has got forty s m e precincts in it, now.

Sweeney: So, i t t s just as.,..

M Tietro: %,it a minute. Thirty-four, thirty-four, and we

g o t about t h i r t y - s i x , thirty-seven ~recincts,
Smeeney: ',%en did t h a t change over? Ten years ago?
M metro: Ten years ago, yec&. Ten yeztrs ago, yeah.

Sneeney: ','hen they redrev the d i s t r i c t boundaries?

M. Pietro: Ah huh, That's i t . Itfs gonna come up this year,
It *s goana be moved around next year 1980. Re tre gonna have
all redistricting, and f think wetre gonna lose some senatora,
we mfght lose some delegates, and I thZnk where the buncilmens,
wen, I d m ' t t h i n k we'll lose them because we can have eighteen
councilmen. So, we a r e goma l o s e them if we aintt got enough
boundary l i n e to t i r e these ~ ~ m d i d a t e s .3 don't'knaw what c a n
n g t v2ters. Like today, I'm su2-osed tg be represerrting
.
15.,2,000?egplIe. I d m l t !mol whether I am, nor not. But that
was t h e s t a t i s t i c given t o us the other days,-A'when S a r t o n was
.-
here frm Conzlunity Coll.ege. Ye sas t e l l i n g us how rany people
'C
r7e must represent, and divide the city up into s i x districts.
Sseeney: I npgreciate your talking to me very much. You
were very h e l p f u l ,