INTERVIEW BY JGPAIRMAN Conversations with some who did, and one who still does, lives out of Melbourne. He 1 k-name Mata Hari before e \d World War, in Perth. There was a cypress fence behind the bowling green which at meeting place for those in the know. It was the custom for someone to keep watch and this task often fell to him. One night he kept a look-out for his mate Billie George and afterwards Billie started calling him “Mata Hari, the bloody spy”. He enlisted in the AIF in 1940 and was captured in Crete in 1941. He was held POW until the end of the war. Were you a late starter? I knew I was camp when I was 11. Another school boy forced me into it and I thought, “Gee, I liked that”. There PINKYSMITH: CHAMPION Boxer Were @ few of us around in those days in Perth. It was. very hidden but you got to know where to meet other: blokes, Why did you enlist? Before the war I wanted to join the navy. When war did’ break out all my mates joined up. If your mates went, you ‘went, I volunteered. Did you have to put up a front in the army? You had to be very careful: act butch until you found the cones like you. You could always tell the ones it was safe to be with, It was amazing the number of gay people in the POW camp. Well, not so much gay as bisexual. Because they couldn't get a woman they'd have a man. Before I was captured I had one bloke in my army unit, a terrific bloke. We were lying in the back of my truck (he was my swamper, my off-sider). This was at night and ‘was pretty hot - in Greece we were. We had shorts on and, nothing else. We lay there watching the bombing of Athens. He looked at me and said, “Come on, let’s have it”. 36 OUTRAGE DECEMBERsaid, “What if we get Killed?” We were close to the bombing. “Why worry”, he said, “we might as well be happy while we've got the chance.” He got married after the war. I met a very good looking bloke near an army camp in Palestine, in an army picture theatre. There was this bloke sitting next to me with the most beautiful legs on him. tle tight shorts, not the army regulation bloomers. I kept looking, a couple of times he looked at me and then the knees came together. I looked down and he had a raging fat sticking out of his shorts. I just looked up at him and I grinned, He winked. We ended up out of bounds ‘over the railway line. Very dangerous but we took the risk Stripped right off, we did. How were you taken prisoner? We missed the last boat out of Crete. I was in the ambulance service taking the wounded to the port. We did ‘one last trip and missed the boat. That was the longest night of my life. We didn’t know if we would be shot, or ‘what would happen. We stayed behind a barbed wire fence without any food until we were captured and sent to Salonika. Then we were transported to Stalag 383, in Germany. Salonika was the hell of POW camps. If we had been treated like that on the train and in stalag, we ‘wouldn't have come home. Were you known as Mata Hari in stalag? Not there, no. (Laughter). Though in stalag I teamed up with one bloke in particular. I told him and he laughed ce mad. He was an English soldier. He was a beautiful bloke, a really lovely bloke. Stalag was a big POW camp, well run, with over three thousand prisoners, We had activities. We both helped out in the shows, so we had a chance to be together behind the curtain. We kept each ‘other company right up until the Americans released us in 1945, There was no privacy in the camp but it was ‘amazing how we coped. I told him I was camp and he said, “who am I to say I don't approve”. Teaming up made all the difference. A lot of men did that, bereft of female ‘company. After the war he became a policeman in Birmingham. Got married, We corresponded right up to his death a few: years ago, but we never saw each other again. What was life like in the camp? ‘We were lucky. We had plenty to do. Sports, plays, dances, We did The Mikado. The little bloke who took the part of Yum Yum was camp. Pinky Smith we called him, Well, one bloke challenged Pinky once and said, “You're a bloody poofter”. Pinky said, “Yes I could be couldn't, But”, he said, “if you want to try yourself out, mate, I'l take you on in anything, Boxing?”, he said, This other bloke said, “You couldn't box your way out of paper bag’. “Tell him,” Pinky said to a mate, “Featherweight champion of the British Army for three years", was the reply. ‘The other bloke soon changed his tune and left Pinky alone. remember Pinky said, “Arent they bloody bastards. 1 know I'm queer. I don't need them to tell me”. So Pinky was Yum Yum, We made wigs from string: someone would tease out the string We made the sets from all bits and pieces. Among three thousand prisoners, you had carpenters, tailors, musicians. We put on some good shows. Did you think you would every be freed? We used to say that at least a bloke in jail knew how long he had to serve; we didn’t. The Americans released us, ‘The Germans were in a shambles. They marched us out ‘of the camp, some up to two hundred miles away. I knew that the English soldier and I would be separated. We had remembered each other's address because we knew that ‘would happen. I went with the Americans to France and hhe was sent back to England. We never saw-each other again, Do you have much to do with the RSL? 1 am very angry with Ruxton, When Ruxton said that there were no homosexuals in the army, 1 wrote him a letter. I said, “As an RSL member, an ex-POW and service man, I apparently have news for you. There were thousands of ex-servicemen who were camp. I think I went through three hundred of them myself, So I have news for you”, 38 OUTRAGE DECEMBERil grew up in an outback New South town. He married young, and was ‘conscripted in 1969. He served in the al ‘was on active duty in Vietnam. _ army and did you take being conscripted and going to Tyent into the army thinking it was something you to dot a duty to your country. It's easy to say with hindsight, but I certainly woulda take that attitude today - Did you marry before going to Vietnam? ‘Yes, I guess partly because of the isolation of my ‘upbringing I was really a very sexually confused young man. I can recall in my late teens being aware that I ‘wasn't thinking the same things other guys were thinking. I couldn't defin ‘There was ho gay community there, certainly not back then, So I did the thing that was ‘expected of me, and got married, How bad was National Service? ‘The first thing that really hit me was going from home to “Kapooka Basic Training Camp. Other guys maybe didn't find it so tough because of their upbringing. I had to do “an instant transition from a pretty protected childhood into Bh Wales nd Cha | a situation where I had to fend for myself. Those first few ‘weeks at Kapooka were absolute hell. The whole thing of being thrust into a situation with people I didn't ‘necessarily like, found nothing in common with, it was very hard, 1 had to eat, sleep and work with them, twenty four hours a day whether [liked it or not. When did you begin to find out you were gay? Th Vietnam. 1 was exposed to so many things. 1 became Aware that some of the guys around me were gay, but you Kept this to yourself. ‘The service frowned upon gay Activity. I knew that if your were caught the reprisals from the €O and the others guys could be pretty nasty. Terrible harrassment, In Vietnam you had no opportunity to be alone with anyone. Our time was controlled. No privacy whatever. I was fortunate in that one of the tasks I was given required me to spend time locked in a hut with another soldier. A chance in a million. He was a very intelligent young man and a bit of a rebel. I liked him. Cee ‘ORIGINAL PHOTOS OF STALAG PRODUCTIONS Before Vietnam he had served a seven day jail sentence. Sentences like that were common then to clear the way for National Service. He told me how he was “raped in jail. Before he was sent to Vietnam he was engaged to a gitl he was obviously very much in love with, He was a man with an enormous sexual appetite, but in Vietnam he ‘wouldn't go to places where you could meet bar girls. He was terrified of getting VD. But he wanted sex. He decided that in fact he had got sexual pleasure from his, jail experience. So sex with me became his only outlet. ‘That's how it happened. For some months we had sex in the hut, He wrote home to arrange his marriage. I wrote to my. wife, A most unusual situation. A great companionship did grow between us. We helped each other through the war. I don’t think being gay had any effect on how you handled Vietnam. The war was the paramount thing. You couldn't ignore it. It was your life. My thoughts were on surviving, not on the guy who might be marching alongside, You depended on him for your life, To put your hand down his pants was not really the thing you had on your mind. Did anyone in the unit suspect you two? No, you had to be very careful. I am aware of one guy in our unit who was caught out. One particular night a group of them got high on grass and one of them said he gave better head than any bar girl. He apparently proved it and was caught. For the rest of his time in Vietnam he was harrassed dreadfully. I think the CO was happy to see the harrassment as a deterrent to anyone else. How much did the army change you? It made me tougher. I learned things about myself and others. I don't think that toughness is all that wonderful OUTRAGE DECEMBER 39I went from being a naive young man to seeing people's lives completely disregarded. After Vietnam, picking up married life was impossible. 1 had been away for two years. We were strangers. I no longer felt comfortable; I wanted to explore the gay world I realized I was fooling myself and cheating my wife. We divorced. She was very bitter. It's only been recently that she accepted the way I am, William is a legal officer in the RAAF. He studied law at Melbourne University and began officer training in his early twenties. Why is homosexuality not tolerated in the defence forces? T think the policy they have is squarely caught in the area ‘of homophobia. All the old fears. Because of the in loco parentis aspect ofthe defence force in training young People, you have the old fear of homosexuals preying on minors, Security is another reason they give: homosexuals are more open to blackmail. There's Section 33; “conduct prejudicial to the good order of service discipline”. They say a homosexual may jeopardize a commander/soldiet relationship, There is the implication that a young person may be “converted” to homosexuality. All the myths that ‘make up homophobia, They have an illogical policy. What happens if a homosexual is detected in the forces? AA scenario would be something like being called before the Commanding Officer. He would say that there have been certain allegations, that he receipt of evidence indicating that you were a homosexual. He would ask if this were true or not. You could plead experimental behaviour and maybe get away with it. If their evidence was strong they could press a charge under Section 33, or force a resignation. Often the degree of public knowledge can influence the inquiry. If you were forced out of the services because you were a homosexual and had served Jess than ten years, you would lose financially, lose your contributions. Has anyone in the Services suspected you of being gay? 1 can be fairly much myself. I am an officer, so life for me is easier than for someone of a lower rank. There are a few people in the system who know about me. My minders. My confidants. T don’t have any overt manifestations of being gay. A lot of gay guys have visible variances in the way they stand, walk or speak. When you are in the defence forces you have to be pretty nondescript. One of the standard questions you are asked at enlistments “have you ever had sex with aman?” You know, “Have you ever had TB?” “No.” “Have you had hepatitis?” “No.” “Have you had sex with a man?” When I went to the Officer Interview Board, one squadron leader asked me what I would do if 1 came across two servicemen having a homosexual experience. I I made a Freudian slip and said, “Inever le gay experience before I went into officer training, 1 was straight, really. 1 always knew 1 could relate to both sexes. Being comfortable with girls, was a skill 1 acquired. I had crushes on men, though, but that was in the too hard basket. I didn't know how to deal with it, Are you always on guard, to act straight? 1 walk a fine tine. The defence forces’ police investigation unit in Carlton has a bar they open in the afternoons. 1 sometimes go in for a drink with the boys. I put my briefcase down at the bar. It might have a copy of a gay magazine init, or a a gay film festival programme. If they only knew they would nail me to the wall ‘They talk about this and that. Once they were talking about trying to penetrate the Gay Ex-Serviceman’s Association. What on earth for? Witchhunting. To see if they could get any current members. Tm able to throw in a few intellectual barbs for them to think about without being detected myself. Is there much talk about AIDS testing? At this stage there is no legal right for the defence forces to test everybody. Testing is compulsory for those who have applied for enlistment. There is talk of testing special units, like the ODF (Operational Deployment Forces). People who are likely to be sent on immediate strategic operations, Can life be good in the services? ‘There is an archaic emphasis on discipline. In my job I see bus loads of kids coming down for induction, They come off the bus bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, The world is theirs, T go back to check on progress next year and see that bus load of potential has taken on a palor. Spirit knocked ‘out of them. Some are really cut out for the services. Some just aren't, Too good, too non-conformist. I take greater interest in them, Neil joined the RAAF in Townsville in 1974, He answered a recruitment ad which said it was “A Whole New Way of Life”. He was sixteen years old. You were very young to join the RAAF 1 wouldn't recommend anyone to do it today. I was too young, Too vulnerable, I wasn’t sure about my feelings, being gay or not. 1 didn't want to join the Air Force as such. At the time T had nowhere to go. My father went bankrupt. He was in hospital. I wanted to go to school but we couldn't afford it, So I went into the RAAF, 40 ‘OUTRAGE DECEMBER1a whole new way of ife? beginning. At the medical, the examining ame to take my jocks off. was standing there "feeling pretty inadequate when he asked me to bend over, and he stuck his finger up my arse. 1 was horrified. 1 ‘nearly died. ‘The service shapes people. Sixteen is too young to be {taken and moulded into what they want, Did you fit in? T didn't drift into the boozer. I tried to hang out with the guys and drink on occasions but it just wasn't me. 1 became a bit of an outsider. Sometimes I got called a ‘Poofter. I didn't even know I was one myself at the time, Thad feelings but I didn't accept them. 1 put everything into my work. I was successful in the RAAF and became an in-flight computer technician. So 1 ‘Was flying around the world chasing subs a lot of the time, Tid enjoy my job. Were you happy in the RAAF? Well I thought: “this is my life”. In the RAAF you weren't supposed to think about whether you were happy or not. You were supposed to think “this is your life, Air force first, air force second, air force third and me fourth’, T knew one guy who used to cry his eyes out at night. He just cried and cried. Looking back, he was probably gay. He got picked on, He was destroyed, he just couldn't cope. He was discharged after about a year and a half. Were you picked on? A few times, The service is very down on homosexuals. Some exVietnam vets used to come to train us in the RAAF base at Wagga. It was extremely hot. We were dressed in greens, carrying rifles and full back packs. This Vietnam vet called me out of the exercise and roared at me that I was a poofter. He made me do one hundred push-ups in front of everyone, Later he came up to me and said, “Listen, I was with a guy in Vietnam, a chopper gunner; he got killed. T know what you are going through. T gave you some hard advice out there. Remember tha, if you want to stay in the forces”. Even the Padre went on about homosexuals, When I joined up, he came to speak to us about the spread of VD. He said if anyone of us turned up with VD up the arse it certainly wouldn't have been caught off a toilet seat. All these kids clapped and roared “poofters, poofters”, I just sat there and thought, “God, I wonder if I will catch it”. often went on the rebound and said things like, “ fuckin’ poofters”. I wouldn't react like that today. When did you have your first gay encounter? When I was twenty three, my last year in the Air Force. I had been engaged twice. When I had sex with a gir! I had to think of some guy in the RAAF to get off. I used to look at guys. ‘When I was in Adelaide in the summer, on the tarmac, there were a lot of very attractive guys. Fit and tanned. There was a lot of mucking around, grabbing crutches. 1 noticed that the good looking guys in shorts were popular with everybody. That idea of homosexuality and mateship in Australia was there very strongly. Tn Malaysia, for my birthday, a few of the guys took me to a bar and got me a prostitute. She took me upstairs and this guy who I thought was really attractive came up with a gitl too, We were in little cubicles, divided by a flimsy screen. I just didn’t want this girl and after awhile she said to me, “Do you want a boy?” I nearly answered yes, when this guy in the next cubicle said, “No, he's straight, he doesn't do that shit”. Was it an easy decision to leave the RAAF? I thought about it for one year. I did nine years in the air force. The RAAF was all I knew. I decided to leave when I was posted to Melbourne. 1 hhad more freedom in that posting. 1 wasn't in a base situation. I took a flat and worked at Defence Force Support Comand, I met a guy, not from the forces; he came into my life and it was the closest thing I'd ever experienced. He couldn't understand my tie to the air force. Leaving the RAAF was very much a struggle between myself, my feelings for him, and life in the air force. ‘OUTRAGE DECEMBER al