Transcript of Kathy Nealy Testimony Aug 7 2009

Case 3:07-cr-00289-M Document 1489 Filed 08/19/10 Page 1 of 385 PageID 19023
Vol 21 - 1
08:25:16 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
2 DALLAS DIVISION
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 3:07-CR-289-M

Government, (
4 (
VERSUS ( DALLAS, TEXAS
5 (
( August 7, 2009
6 DONALD W. HILL (1) (
D'ANGELO LEE (2) (
7 SHEILA D. FARRINGTON (3) (
DARREN L. REAGAN (7) (
08:25:16 8 RICKEY E. ROBERTSON (10) (
Defendants. ( 8:30 a.m.
9
Volume 21
10 TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL
THE HONORABLE BARBARA M.G. LYNN
11 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury
12 A P P E A R A N C E S:
13 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: MARCUS BUSCH

SARAH SALDANA
14 CHAD E. MEACHAM
LEIGHA SIMONTON
15 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
16 U.S. Courthouse, Third Floor
Dallas, Texas 75242
17 214.659.8600
18 FOR THE DEFENDANT:

DONALD W. HILL (1) RAY JACKSON
19 THE JACKSON LAW FIRM
3811 Turtle Creek Blvd
20 Suite 600
Dallas, TX 75219
21 214/651-6250
rjackson@jacksonfirm.net
22
D'ANGELO LEE (2) DOUGLAS C. GREENE
23 GREENE LAW FIRM
2000 E. Lamar Street
24 Suite 600
Arlington, TX 76006
25 817/303-2141
greenelawfirm@sbcglobal.net
P. SUE ENGLEDOW CSR/RPR

FEDERAL COURT REPORTER - 214.753.2325
Vol 21 - 2
08:25:16 1
2 SHEILA D. FARRINGTON (3) VICTOR D. VITAL

JONATHAN R. MUREEN
3 Baker Botts LLP
2001 Ross Ave
4 Dallas, TX 75201
214/953-6832
5 victor.vital@bakerbotts.com
6
DARREN L. REAGAN (7) THEODORE P. STEINKE, JR.
7 LAW OFFICE OF TED STEINKE
770 Founders Square
08:25:16 8 900 Jackson Street
Dallas, Texas 75202
9 214.747.7148
10
RICKEY E. ROBERTSON (10) DARLENE C. CLAYTON-DECKARD
11 ANGELA A. DOWNES
THE DECKARD LAW OFFICE
12 2351 W Northwest Highway
Suite 2110 LB 34
13 Dallas, TX 75220
214/220-9335
14 darlenedeckard@aol.com
15
COURT REPORTER: P. SUE ENGLEDOW RPR/CSR NO. 1170
16 P.O. Box 50711
Dallas, Texas 75250
17 214.753.2325
sengledow@sbcglobal.net
18
19 proceedings reported by mechanical stenography, transcript

produced by computer.
20
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22
23
24
25

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08:25:16 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
Volume 21
2 August 7, 2009
8:30 a.m.
3 JURY TRIAL
5 THE COURT: On the exhibit issue.
6 MR. STEINKE: My latest understanding is from an
7 e-mail from Marcus yesterday -- or last night that the
8 government intended to offer all of the other unoffered
9 exhibits into evidence. And I have looked at those and from
10 my perspective I have no objection to that other than to 1596,
11 which is that --
12 THE COURT: Well, if you have an objection we're
08:25:45 13 just going to pull those out. So 1596, I won't deal with.
14 Other than that, do you have an objection?
15 MR. STEINKE: Other than --
16 MR. VITAL: May I?
17 We are with Ted. No objection for Sheila Hill other than
18 the one.
19 THE COURT: I'll pull that one.
20 MS. DECKARD: 1596 is our objection.
21 MR. JACKSON: No objection from Mr. Hill, your
22 Honor.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Greene. Calling Mr. Greene.
24 Mr. Reagan, you don't mind if everybody else -- oh, I'm
25 sorry -- it's Mr. Lee.

Vol 21 - 4
08:26:34 1 Mr. Lee is not here either, so I can't get his
2 permission.
3 All right. 1596, we'll just exclude, and the government
4 has given me a list that has all of the exhibits noted.
5 All right. I'm going to read these into the record
6 subject to hearing from Mr. Greene that the following exhibits
7 will be admitted without objection.
8 MR. STEINKE: Could you do it slow enough?
9 THE COURT: Well, what I'm going to do is go through
10 these starting with the Fourth Supplement.
11 MR. STEINKE: Okay.
12 THE COURT: Is that the order I have them in?
13 If I don't call them, that means they have already been
14 admitted.
08:27:25 15 (Mr. Greene enters courtroom.)
16 THE COURT: 8:15 today.
17 All right. Mr. Greene, everyone else on behalf of their
18 counsel -- of their client has agreed that the government --
19 the balance of the government's exhibits will all be admitted
20 without objection except for Exhibit 1596, which I will
21 reserve until it's offered.
22 Do you object to that?
23 MR. GREENE: I'll defer to my counsel, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Well, you have to make a -- are you on
25 behalf of Mr. Lee agreeing to that?

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08:28:02 1 MR. GREENE: Yes, your Honor, I am.
2 THE COURT: All right. Are you with me now?
3 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am. You're on the Fifth
4 Supplement.
5 THE COURT: The last one I have is the Fourth. Do
6 you have a Fifth?
7 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am.
8 THE COURT: I don't have it yet.
9 Is there a fifth supplemental exhibit list, Mr. Busch?
10 MR. BUSCH: I'm sorry?
11 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Steinke has a fifth
12 supplemental exhibit list, and I only have the fourth.
13 MR. BUSCH: Yes, your Honor. May I approach?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
08:28:33 15 MR. BUSCH: I just filed this. It has three new
16 exhibits.
17 MR. JACKSON: Object to that.
18 THE COURT: But none of these have been admitted?
19 MR. BUSCH: No, ma'am.
20 THE COURT: I'll start there then.
21 All right. Exhibits 3296, 5880, 5881. That's the
22 balance of the Fifth.
23 1528, which is the only exhibit not admitted on the
24 fourth list.
25 On the third list, 291, 3283, 3284 -- 32 is the prefix on

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08:29:15 1 all of these -- '86, '88, '89, '93 and '94 and 5878 and 5879.
2 All on the third -- excuse me -- all on the second have been
3 admitted except for 1596, which we're reserving.
4 On the original supplement 5046.
5 On the amended exhibit list 41, 50, 117, 124, 129, 131,
6 33, 34, 35, 37, 38, 39 and 41.
7 Sue, these are 100 beginning when I started with 1 from
8 115 on, these are 100 series.
9 138, 139, 141. All these continued in the hundreds
10 unless I say otherwise.
11 152-A, C, D, E, 153, 167, '68, '69, '98, 206, 224, 226,
12 228, 229, '30 -- these are all 200 unless I say otherwise.
13 250, 257, 276, 277, '82, '95, '96, '97-A.
14 303, 312-A, '14, '15, '18-A, '21, '23, '24, '29, '29-A,
08:31:30 15 '29-B, '29-C, 330, '31, '33, '34, '41, '82, '87.
16 408. You can turn that sound on so they know what we're
17 doing in here.
18 521, 530, 533, 540, 582, '87, '88.
19 600 series. '11, '17, '18, '37, '41, '42, '43, '65.
20 667.
21 700 series. '54, '57, '65 through '68, '71, '72, '89,
22 '90.
23 800 series. 814, '16, '18, '21, '27 through '30, '33,
24 '34, '38, '41.
25 Going at a pace acceptable to you, Mr. Steinke?

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08:32:37 1 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am.
2 THE COURT: '65 through '67, '70, '79, '86, '92
3 through '98, 921, '25, '26, '33, '40, '84.
4 1005, 1024, 1029, 1035, all 1000 series, '36, '37, '46,
5 '48, '54, '58, '59, '77, '79, '80, '81-A.
6 1100 series. '2, '4, '6, '58, '83, '84, '86, '87, '88,
7 '91, '93 through '95.
8 1200, 1205, '06, '08. I can't tell if '11 has already
9 been admitted or not. If not, it's admitted now. '18, '34,
10 48 -- all 1200 still -- '53, '54, '64, '65, '68, '69, '82,
11 '85, '87, '89, '92, '96, '97, '99.
12 1301, '04, '05. All these are 1300 series. 1307, '15,
13 '19, '31, '34, '48, '50, '55, '66.
14 1400. '59, '79, '80, '82, '87.
08:34:35 15 1500. '01, '3, '4, '7, '10, '12, '13, 1544, 1566, '80,
16 '82, '85, '97, '98, '99.
17 1601, all 1600, through '5, 1617, '18, '20, '39, '47,
18 '48, '51, '54, '59.
19 1700 series. '14, '29, '31, '36 through '41, '43 through
20 '45, '48, '62, '66, '70, '71, '74, '76.
21 1800s. '11, '13, '17, '29, '36, '49, '50, '57, '58, '60,
22 '61, '62, '64, '69, '77, '79, '83, '91 through '94, '97, '99.
23 1900 series. '2 through '4, '8, '27, '29, '36 through
24 '39, '41, '44, '46 through '49, '53, '55 through '66, '69
25 through '71, '73, '74, '76, '78, '80, '90, '92 through '93,

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08:36:28 1 '96.
2 2000 series. '17, '20, '21, '24, '26, '30, '32, '38,
3 '39, '46, '47, '49, '50, '51, '52, '29, '36, '37, '55, '58,
4 '73, '74, '78, '81.
5 3000 series. '27, '40, '61, '62, '80, '86, '91, '92.
6 3100s. '2, '4, '9, '31, '33, '39, '42, '43, '47, '60,
7 '77, '96.
8 3200 series. '1, '2, '9, '10, '12, '13, '15 through '18,
9 '24, '27, '29, '35, '37, '38, '41, through '47, '49, '50, '55
10 through '68, '73, '74, '75, '76.
11 5000 series. '32 through '45.
12 5100 series. 5100, '2, '3 through '19, '24 through '29,
13 '32, '34 through '64.
14 Are you with me, Mr. Steinke?
08:38:48 15 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am.
16 THE COURT: 5100 series. '76 through 5235.
17 5300 through 5387.
18 '58 -- this is page 99.
20 THE COURT: Through '62, '58, '74 and 5875, 5876,
21 5863, '64, '66 and '67.
22 Is that in accordance with your records, Mr. Steinke?
23 MR. STEINKE: It is.
24 MR. BUSCH: Your Honor, I missed it, but I didn't
25 hear you call out 1516 on page 27.

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08:42:11 1 THE COURT: How about it, Mr. Steinke?
2 MR. STEINKE: I have got it marked that you called
3 it out.
4 THE COURT: Well, just in case I didn't, 1516 should
5 be included in that list if I missed it.
6 Tell them we're doing something that's going to make life
7 easier for them, so we will be five minutes.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
9 THE COURT: All right. Does the defense have any
10 exhibits that you want to do the same thing with?
12 The defense would offer into evidence at this time
13 Defendant Reagan's Exhibit 2 through 14 and 16.
14 THE COURT: Does anyone else want to do this now?
08:43:13 15 MR. HASKEL: Pete Haskel. Can the City inquire if
16 the defense exhibits purport to have opinions or advice of the
17 city attorney?
18 MR. STEINKE: No.
19 MR. HASKEL: Thank you.
20 THE COURT: Ms. Miller, I'm sorry to keep you.
21 We'll be just a moment.
22 Does anyone else want to do that?
23 MR. VITAL: I think that would be a good idea. If I
24 could have the weekend, your Honor, we will do the same on
25 Monday.

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08:43:37 1 MR. GREENE: I will do the same thing, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I think this is very helpful. I
3 appreciate it very much. You just figure out how long that
4 would take. If it takes 15 seconds, you can do the math.
5 It's a lot of minutes.
6 MR. VITAL: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
7 THE COURT: I appreciate that very much, Counsel,
8 for your cooperating on that.
9 Then those exhibits that I called out are admitted. The
10 only government exhibit that is in dispute is 1596.
11 Mr. Busch, as to 1596 I would be very grateful if you can
12 signal when you're going to put that in, and we will have a
13 hearing outside the presence of the jury. I have had several
14 bench conferences about it and let's just develop the record
08:44:21 15 and I'll rule on it. Then you will know one way or the other.
16 We're not going to have to keep having these visits at the
17 bench about 1596.
18 MR. BUSCH: Yes, your Honor.
19 In regard to Mr. Steinke's offer, may we have the weekend
20 to take a look at those?
21 THE COURT: Do you need those? It's not a
22 substantial number.
23 MR. STEINKE: I don't think I'll need them today,
24 your Honor.
25 THE COURT: That's fine. 2 through 14 and 16.

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08:44:41 1 Then Monday morning we'll meet at 8:15, Mr. Greene.
2 Should I say 8:00?
3 MR. GREENE: No.
4 THE COURT: It will be 8:15 for everyone except
5 Mr. Greene. For Mr. Greene it will be 8.
6 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, it's just the matter of
7 traffic on 30.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Greene, you don't want to compare
9 your road of travel to these folks who make it here when
10 they're supposed to every day. So 8:15 is when we're starting
11 whether you're here or not. So you might want to be here.
12 Anything else?
13 MR. HASKEL: Late yesterday afternoon we learned for
14 the first time that the defense has a 302 dated 5-30 -- May
08:45:23 15 30, '06 reporting to reflect advice of the city attorney to
16 the city council.
17 With that same colloquy the City Attorney's Office is
18 accused of not being diligent in protecting the privilege, I
19 certainly don't want to get into that right now, your Honor,
20 but to show diligence we do ask that the Court direct that
21 those documents be not disseminated, be any reflection of
22 advice or communications to or from the city attorney not
23 being communicated outside the defense counsel, that they not
24 be mentioned in open court, particularly because we're on the
25 mic system to another room, without the Court's permission,

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08:46:03 1 and that they be destroyed at the conclusion of the trial
2 except to the extent they're admitted into evidence.
3 We further respectfully ask the Court to direct all
4 parties to give the City one business day's notice if they
5 intend to adduce communications to or from the city attorney.
6 Otherwise, I'll be required to spend City time sitting
7 here throughout this trial.
8 THE COURT: Well, as a taxpayer I regret that you're
9 going to have to be here, Mr. Haskel, but these lawyers have a
10 lot to do, and not at the top of the list is protecting the
11 City's privilege.
12 MR. HASKEL: Yes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: So I'm going to answer that question for
14 them, because I can intuit what they are going to say, which
08:46:47 15 is no thanks. They're not going to want to do that.
16 The record will reflect that you have been diligent about
17 it. The 302s were produced pursuant to my order, and the
18 production of those by the government to the defense, that act
19 cannot and will not waive any privilege that might not
20 otherwise have been waived if there is such a privilege.
21 If anyone wants to argue to me that the production of the
22 302s to defense counsel has waived an otherwise existing
23 privilege, I would suggest that you strap on your climbing
24 gear, because the likelihood of that prevailing would be nil.
25 So I wouldn't waste the same valuable time that I'm trying to

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08:47:33 1 preserve on making that argument. That's not going to be
2 successful.
4 THE COURT: Now, the issue of whether the privilege
5 was waived by a conference with the FBI is an interesting
6 subject, and I don't know the answer to that off the top of my
7 head.
8 Have you got any briefing on that, Mr. Haskel?
9 MR. HASKEL: I haven't -- other than the Wine case
10 which I cited to the Court and our memo of authorities which
11 suggest that in a business corporation context it is
12 management's right to waive the attorney-client privilege,
13 exclusive right with the attorney-client privilege.
14 That holding, your Honor, you may recall, was that
08:48:17 15 because the bankruptcy trustee succeeded to the power of
16 corporate management, the bankruptcy trustee had the power to
17 waive the attorney-client privilege only because he succeeded
18 to matters of power.
19 If the right to waive wasn't confined to management the
20 Supreme Court would not have to engage in that reasoning.
21 THE COURT: Well, who is management?
22 MR. HASKEL: Well in the business corporation
23 context I believe it was the CEO of the corporation.
24 In the municipal corporation context, because the City of
25 Dallas is a weak mayor form of government, I'm inviting your

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08:48:57 1 attention to City Charter Section --
2 THE COURT: I'm familiar with the issue.
3 MR. HASKEL: In that case, the city manager is the
4 chief executive officer of the City of Dallas, and she and
5 only she would have the power by extension of Winecroft
6 (phonetic) to waive the privilege.
7 With respect to -- I can tell the Court that the City
8 practice is that -- other than of course in litigation where
9 the city attorney, just like any other party's attorney, can
10 waive privilege based on litigation conduct, the City only
11 waives privilege intentionally through the decision or
12 consultation with the city council, not even the city manager,
13 but the council as a whole is one that sets policy and subject
14 to the city attorney's powers directs litigation.
08:49:47 15 THE COURT: Well, there has been a significant
16 amount of testimony in the trial about opinions that Madeleine
17 Johnson gave to the City.
18 I remember an entire line of testimony about whether
19 opinions are always given in writing, or can be given orally.
20 MR. HASKEL: May I --
21 THE COURT: Mr. Haskel, you can talk when I'm not.
22 MR. HASKEL: I'm sorry.
23 THE COURT: That same rule applies to you as to
24 everybody else, and I'll try -- although I'm not very good at
25 honoring that rule myself, but that's what I get to do since I

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08:50:19 1 sit up here.
2 MR. HASKEL: I'm sorry.
3 THE COURT: The City -- I do not agree with the
4 argument that was made by Mr. Vital that the City would
5 necessarily have to be sitting here through the entire trial
6 if not on notice that an issue related to a city privilege
7 might apply.
8 Given the way the testimony came in, largely through
9 Mr. Wilson, I think the City was not fairly on notice that its
10 privilege, if otherwise extant, might be in jeopardy at that
11 time.
12 So I'm not holding that that in and of itself was a
13 waiver, but the fact of the matter is that the jury and
14 everybody else listening to the testimony has already heard a
08:51:07 15 great deal about that subject.
16 So if the City is interested in protecting the substance
17 of the issue as opposed to -- and this is a legitimate
18 purpose, I'm not being critical of it -- as opposed to making
19 a record for other purposes of being vigilant and protecting
20 its privilege, the latter can be satisfied by your objection.
21 On the former issue, I think the horse has left the barn
22 already.
23 MR. HASKEL: May I be heard, your Honor?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. HASKEL: Obviously I cannot speak to Agent

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08:51:54 1 Wilson's testimony. I certainly wasn't privy to it.
2 I can say, your Honor, that otherwise -- because I have
3 made it my business to be here with every witness who is a
4 present or former city official has testified, the only time
5 that I have heard that a city attorney opinion has been
6 mentioned has been advice to one of the defendants,
7 specifically Mr. Hill.
8 And I have before trial advised Mr. Hill's attorney that
9 that privilege was his to waive or not.
10 And unlike advice to the council at large, or to another
11 city official other than the defendant, I would be trying to
12 protect that privilege. But the City was not -- because he
13 was present with counsel at trial, the City believes that that
14 was -- an opinion to him personally on conflict of interest
08:52:49 15 was not one that the City would try to protect in view of him
16 being represented and present at trial.
17 THE COURT: Well, I'm not quite sure I see the
18 distinction you're making about allowing -- I mean, the city
19 attorney is not giving advice to Mr. Hill except as a city
20 official.
21 MR. HASKEL: Yes, your Honor. But when we -- when a
22 city official, anybody, asks for conflict of interest advice,
23 which was the situation in two instances by Mr. Hill, that
24 advice is given directly to the requestor, and is in
25 confidence to the requestor and is not disclosed to any other

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08:53:33 1 council member or to any other city official.
2 It is, yes, the client is the client in his official
3 capacity, but in those limited instances of conflict of
4 interest the advice is confidential to the requestor unless
5 and until of course something happens at the horseshoe that
6 make it public.
7 THE COURT: Let me just give you a preview. I'm
8 going to take this up as it goes. But given that -- and I'm
9 not in any sense being critical of you with what I'm about to
10 say, Mr. Haskel.
11 Since some of what I actually say is attributed to me in
12 the press, I want to make sure that I say this correctly since
13 what other people say is sometimes attributed to me, this one
14 is coming out of my mouth, and I'm going to be very careful
08:54:24 15 with the way I say it.
16 No one but the City is objecting to this opinion being
17 discussed in trial. I interpret that has meaning that the
18 government thinks it needs it to pursue its case.
19 It didn't come up with this witness, but the issue of
20 opinions that the city attorney gave has come up several
21 times.
22 So apparently the government feels that it needs it in
23 its presentation of the case.
24 The defense feels it needs it in -- they need it in their
25 defense in the case.

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08:55:04 1 If the Court has to weigh competing interests here,
2 including due process in a criminal case, as I have said
3 previously in connection with city motions, I'm going to trump
4 those rights when balanced against the City's. Particularly
5 because I think that this issue is already out in the public
6 domain.
7 But you may object and should object every time you think
8 the City's interest compel you to do so. I'm not in the least
9 bit offended, that's your job, and I'll rule as we go.
11 MR. MEACHAM: Your Honor, I started to speak
12 yesterday. I think -- it's been a while, but I think it's not
13 correct that Agent Wilson offered testimony about this opinion
14 that would have been offered back in August of 2003.
08:55:53 15 I think on cross-examination he was given a whole bunch
16 of questions about it to which he answered yes, no or I don't
17 know.
18 The government followed up after his testimony with the
19 testimony of two city attorneys -- or assistant city attorneys
20 saying that no such written opinion existed.
21 But I'm not aware that Agent Wilson actually testified to
22 any opinion.
23 THE COURT: Well, it's not material to my conclusion
24 whether the government initiated it or followed up. I'll
25 stand corrected if that's true.

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08:56:24 1 MR. MEACHAM: Okay.
2 THE COURT: You might be guided by the fact that if
3 I'm a little fuzzy about that, we might want to move along,
4 because I would assure you that my fuzziness might be
5 multiplied by other people's fuzziness.
6 MR. MEACHAM: I understand.
7 THE COURT: Anything else on this then?
8 (No response.)
9 THE COURT: Thank you.
10 Bring in the jury.
11 Ms. Miller, if you want to come up.
12 (Jury returned to the courtroom.)
13 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I
14 know we kept you back there, and I want to tell you what we
08:58:37 15 were doing, because although you were delayed in coming out, I
16 think we made good progress.
17 We literally preadmitted hundreds of exhibits by
18 agreement. And we figure if that saved us 15 seconds each
19 time counsel had to give me an exhibit number and I would roll
20 over here on my chair and write it down and roll back that
21 that would add up to whole lot of hours. So we saved a good
22 bit of time through the cooperation of counsel, which I
23 appreciate. I'm sorry that that delayed you, but that was
24 time well spent.
25 What that means is that now if you hear an exhibit being

Vol 21 - 20
08:59:14 1 mentioned and they don't go through that process of offering
2 it and me writing it down, don't concern yourself with it,
3 because you won't hear about it unless I have already admitted
4 it. At the end of trial of course all the exhibits that's are
5 admitted will be sent to the back to jury room for you to look
6 at and consider.
7 Okay. Mr. Greene.
8 MR. GREENE: Thank you, your Honor.
9 LAURA MILLER, (Sworn)
10 having been previously sworn, testified as follows:
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
12 BY MR. GREENE:
13 Q. Good morning.
14 A. Good morning.
08:59:38 15 Q. My name is Doug Greene. I represent Mr. D'Angelo Lee.
16 All right. We don't know each other outside of this
17 situation, do we?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I wanted to kind of go back and talk about this
20 Mr. Fantroy recusal issue that came up in -- back in 2003 and
21 again in 2004. Okay?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. All right. At some point Mr. Fantroy was not in the room
24 and I think you said you leaned over to Councilman Hill and
25 asked him why Mr. Fantroy wasn't here, correct?

Vol 21 - 21
09:00:10 1 A. Correct.
2 Q. All right. Mr. Hill related to you that he thought that
3 he had a conflict with some contract he had for a security
4 company that he owned along with his son in regards to
5 Mr. Fisher's company.
6 Do you remember that?
7 A. You're paraphrasing, but generally.
8 Q. Okay. All right. But generally that was the nature of
9 what the discussion was, correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. All right. Then at some point after that you asked to go
12 into executive session with the city council?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And executive session basically was outside of the
09:00:48 15 public's listening area?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And one of the reasons you went into executive session
18 was because you wanted to see whether or not this deal --
19 this -- not deal, but this agenda item regarding this piece of
20 property on tax credits was going to go forward?
21 A. (No response.)
22 Q. Did --
23 A. Well, it was largely to inform my colleagues about what
24 was happening, because they were being asked to vote on the
25 item.

Vol 21 - 22
09:01:24 1 Q. Okay. I guess my question is the -- once you went back
2 to the executive session you talked to -- I guess other
3 councilmen went back there with you?
4 A. All the council members went back there except for
5 Mr. Fantroy.
6 Q. That was including Hill -- Councilman Hill at the time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were sitting in the back, and at some point you were
9 talking about whether or not we should be I believe to vote on
10 this agenda item because of the conflict to Mr. Fantroy?
11 A. Whether we ought to, yes.
12 Q. And I guess what I'm getting at is, if it was determined
13 that he did have a conflict, would you be able to vote on that
14 deal at all?
09:02:06 15 MR. HASKEL: Objection, your Honor, attorney-client
16 privilege. The question is assigned to elicit indirectly the
17 result of the advice of the city attorney.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 A. We -- yes, we often vote on items where a council member
20 has a conflict of interest.
21 Q. All right. What I'm getting at, though, is if you find
22 that there is a conflict of interest, and that -- would that
23 person be prohibited from participating in the vote?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. They would have to recuse themselves

Vol 21 - 23
09:02:36 1 generally, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in this particular situation that's what Mr. Fantroy
4 did, I take it, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Hill's opinion was that he thought that what
7 Mr. Fantroy did was proper by recusing himself?
8 A. Well, it went beyond that.
9 Q. I'm paraphrasing. I'm not trying to quote him, but
10 generally speaking -- I think you were talking about he gave
11 some examples if I donated some money -- if a developer
12 donated some money in a church donation plate and I voted on
13 that later that -- that's an analogy of what was going on with
14 Mr. Fantroy?
09:03:22 15 A. Well, he was posing a situation and asking me if I
16 thought that that was appropriate.
17 Q. All right. But the general gist of his conversation was
18 that he thought that Mr. Fantroy was doing the proper thing
19 under the rules by moving to recuse him?
20 A. No. It was going beyond that. Mr. Hill thought that --
21 Q. Well, my question is --
22 A. -- The whole situation was appropriate.
23 Q. Okay. All right. And that the situation we're talking
24 about, though, is that Mr. Fantroy recused himself?
25 A. No. No.

Vol 21 - 24
09:03:52 1 Q. We're not talking about the situation?
2 A. We're talking about the relationship --
3 Q. My question is -- I don't want to cut you off, because I
4 don't want to spend a whole lot of time on it.
5 A. But I would like to answer.
6 THE COURT: Excuse me. If you ask a question the
7 witness is entitled to answer the question.
8 MR. GREENE: Absolutely, your Honor.
9 I'm going to give you the opportunity to answer the
10 question.
11 THE COURT: Ask your question.
12 If you can't answer the question that he's asked you in
13 the way he's phrased it, you may say so.
14 MR. GREENE: All right. Now --
09:04:18 15 THE COURT: Go ahead with the question that was
16 pending. The witness was in the middle of her answer.
17 MR. GREENE: Yes, your Honor.
18 BY MR. GREENE:
19 Q. This was a matter -- and quite frankly I don't remember
20 the exact question, so if I phrase it another way, that's
21 where I'm going. All right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. The only thing I'm trying to get at is, when
24 you went into the back it was because of the recusal situation
25 regarding Mr. Fantroy, correct?

Vol 21 - 25
09:04:45 1 A. No.
2 Q. It wasn't because Mr. Fantroy had recused himself from
3 this vote regarding Mr. Fisher's tax credit deal?
4 A. No.
5 Q. All right. At some point you contacted the City
6 Attorney's Office, right?
7 A. For what purpose?
8 Q. Did you contact the City Attorney's Office?
9 A. When?
10 THE COURT: I think the problem the witness is
11 having is without confining this to time or subject, that
12 covers a lot of ground.
13 BY MR. GREENE:
14 Q. When you went back into the executive session that we
09:05:23 15 were just talking about.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. One of the purposes of going back into the executive
18 session was to bring up -- and I think you said to advise the
19 members of the city council what your issue was with
20 Mr. Fantroy's situation, right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And what you were seeking was some direction, some
23 opinion or some advice as to how best to proceed given that
24 situation?
25 A. Correct.

Vol 21 - 26
09:05:48 1 Q. All right. And when you did that, what you did was you
2 wanted to contact the City Attorney's Office?
3 A. The City Attorney's Office was already in the room.
4 Q. Okay. Was that Madeleine Johnson from the City
5 Attorney's Office?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who is she?
8 A. She was the city attorney at the time.
9 Q. She's appointed or -- is she appointed or elected?
10 A. She is appointed by the city council.
11 Q. She is the head attorney for the City of Dallas?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. She's the one who would render opinions and things of
14 that nature in regard to what you were seeking to find out.
09:06:24 15 Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You asked her for her opinion or advice?
18 MR. HASKEL: Objection, attorney-client privilege,
19 your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Well, I don't think that the question
21 whether her advice was solicited is privileged, but if the
22 City believes it is, the record has been made. That's
23 overruled.
24 A. Yes.
25 BY MR. GREENE:

Vol 21 - 27
09:06:43 1 Q. All right. At some point she gave an opinion, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And this wasn't an opinion that was given
4 that particular day?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. All right. This matter was -- I believe you said it was
7 put off for about two weeks?
8 A. As I recall.
9 Q. Approximately.
10 And the reason why you were asking for her opinion is
11 because she was an attorney familiar with that dilemma or that
12 situation?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And so was Mr. Hill. Mr. Hill was an
09:07:21 15 attorney also, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. And Mr. Hill also was on -- we heard some
18 conversations yesterday about the -- I guess it was -- I may
19 be inartfully saying it, but it was some type of ethics
20 commission.
21 Do you remember hearing the tape the government played?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It was about some kind of determination whether we were
24 going to have some new ethical rules, or something to that
25 effect?

Vol 21 - 28
09:07:47 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was that some sort of commission?
3 A. No. That was a meeting of the city council, and we were
4 all discussing whether or not to create an ethics commission
5 for the City.
6 Q. Okay. Now, during that discussion we heard some comments
7 by Mr. Hill in regards to -- we heard some comments about
8 Mr. Hill in regards to whether or not you thought it was a
9 prudent idea to revamp the ethics commission -- or ethics rule
10 that they already had, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And we also heard the statements of Mr. Hill that the
13 majority of the council -- I guess now was, I guess,
14 classified as minority. I mean, they were Hispanics, there
09:08:43 15 were African-Americans, there were women on the city council,
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They made up the majority of the city council, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Hill was somewhat, I guess,
21 perplexed that they needed -- because of this new majority
22 that was in charge in the city council that all of a sudden
23 that they needed some new ethics rules.
24 Is that what you picked up from this conversation?
25 A. I only knew what he was saying in the meeting.

Vol 21 - 29
09:09:16 1 Q. Okay. I guess what -- and what he was saying was that he
2 didn't think that just because they had these new folks in
3 office that they needed some brand new ethical rules because
4 he just didn't feel the need for it, and it would cost money.
5 A. (No response.)
6 Q. I'm sorry. Did you understand my question?
7 A. I didn't know you asked me a question. I'm sorry.
8 Q. I did. I'm sorry if I didn't communicate to you.
9 But I guess my point was that you're aware that
10 Mr. Hill's point was that since you have all these new
11 minorities in office now, as the majority at the city council
12 that he thought it was somewhat -- I don't want to say
13 disingenuous, but somewhat unfair at that point to all the
14 sudden now want to create some new ethical rules.
09:10:15 15 Is that your understanding of the general gist of this
16 conversation?
17 A. Whatever Mr. Hill said in the meeting is what he said.
18 Q. Is that your understanding of what he said, though?
19 A. Well, I would have to go back.
20 Q. Do you want to hear it?
21 A. Well, I really -- I think what he said is what he said,
22 and I don't want to characterize what he said.
23 Q. All right. I'm not asking you to characterize. I'm just
24 trying to get your sense of do you agree with me that that's
25 what he was addressing by making these comments on the tape

Vol 21 - 30
09:10:43 1 that we heard yesterday.
2 A. Well, from the tape that we heard yesterday I think he
3 made a lot of comments about why he thought we shouldn't have
4 an ethics commission, we shouldn't change the ethics code, we
5 shouldn't have a financial disclosure statement that was more
6 complex. There were a -- he spoke quite a long time
7 yesterday.
8 Q. Because we already had those rules, right? We already
9 had ethics rules and things like that at that point, correct?
10 A. Well, we wanted --
11 Q. I guess my point -- I don't want to belabor that, but I
12 guess my point would be did they have them, yes or no?
13 A. We wanted to strengthen the ethics code considerably,
14 not -- some people on the council did.
09:11:20 15 Q. At some point that passed, did it not? I mean, there was
16 some strengthening of the ethics code, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Hill was present for that, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Hill was aware of what those -- what those new
21 requirements were, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. And when -- when -- when we're talking this
24 ethics code bit, I mean, this is not just like a single piece
25 of paper that comes up with one or two questions, right?

Vol 21 - 31
09:11:49 1 A. No.
2 Q. This is a major production to change whatever rules
3 they're trying to change?
4 A. Well, it's a larger document than one page.
5 Q. I mean, it's a legal document basically, right?
6 A. Well, it's an ordinance.
7 Q. Right. It spells out all these different rules and all
8 different exceptions to the rules, et cetera, et cetera?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You're aware that -- you were familiar with them on some
11 level, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And other people on the city council had gotten copies of
14 those rules also. Is that right?
09:12:25 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, at -- after the -- after you came out of executive
17 session and you continued the Fantroy matter for two weeks,
18 did there come a point in time that the Fisher-Fantroy --
19 well, Fisher's deal -- or tax credit deal was approved?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. That was on -- I believe it was Rose Court at
22 Thorntree.
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Now, this was -- now during this two-week period between
25 the time it was continued until the Fisher deal was actually

Vol 21 - 32
09:13:27 1 approved, the city attorney had those two weeks to kind of
2 review the particulars -- facts that you wanted addressed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Correct. All right.
5 Then at some point during that period of time they
6 rendered an opinion?
7 A. Not during that time.
8 Q. All right. But at some point prior to the second week
9 when the thing passed, they had given you an opinion?
10 A. No.
11 Q. They had given you some advice?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, let me ask you this.
14 If the city attorney told you that no, you shouldn't
09:14:06 15 proceed, you would agree with me that the deal with
16 Mr. Fantroy and Mr. Fisher would not have passed?
17 MR. HASKEL: Objection, privileged, your Honor.
18 MS. SALDANA: Asked and answered, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Overruled as to both. You may answer
20 that.
21 A. I just want to be certain of your question.
22 Do you mind asking it again, or asking the court reporter
23 to read it? I'm sorry.
24 BY MR. GREENE:
25 Q. Sure.

Vol 21 - 33
09:14:32 1 My question is, if the city attorney tells you don't do
2 something, do you generally listen to the City Attorney's
3 Office?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And on this Fantroy-Fisher contract situation, that came
6 before the city council again two weeks after the -- you went
7 into executive session, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then it passed at that point, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. After getting some advice from the City Attorney's
12 Office, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's from Madeleine Johnson, correct?
09:15:04 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. After she had a certain period of time to think about
17 what the answer should be?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Correct.
20 All right. Now, so you would agree with me that it is
21 normal, I guess, to rely on the opinion of an attorney?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. And I think you were talking to Mr. Steinke
24 yesterday about when you were an investigative reporter you
25 would call the DA's office, and Mr. Steinke in particular --

Vol 21 - 34
09:15:37 1 THE COURT: We decided not to discuss that
2 yesterday, so let's not discuss it today.
3 MR. GREENE: All right.
4 BY MR. GREENE:
5 Q. You would call the DA's office to get an opinion on an
6 ethical issue or a legal issue if you needed to?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And -- and -- and the reason why you did that was so you
9 would have some basis to justify whatever actions or opinions
10 you were taking?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I mean, that's what you go to a lawyer for, is to kind of
13 get advice before you proceed hopefully?
14 A. Right.
09:16:13 15 Q. Now, if someone -- well -- now that you were at the city,
16 now you are the mayor, and before that when you were on the
17 city council, there was a point in time that you didn't need
18 to call the DA's office, you had to call the City Attorney's
19 Office to get opinions on matters that affected the City,
20 right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. They were -- because they were the city attorney?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. In fact, we have Mr. Haskel here on behalf of the City
25 today, right?

Vol 21 - 35
09:16:46 1 A. Correct.
2 Q. That's why he's here, to give a legal opinion as to
3 what's proper or not under the City rules.
4 THE COURT: Let's just move along.
5 About what Mr. Haskel is here for, I have told the jury
6 what he's here for. It's obvious what he's here for. So
7 let's move along.
8 BY MR. GREENE:
9 Q. Have you heard the term "affirmative defense"?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Assume you get some advice from the City Attorney's
12 Office and you follow that advice and let's say you get sued
13 based on your actions following that advice, are you aware
14 that you are -- well -- I don't want to say the word "immune,"
09:17:28 15 but you understand you cannot be sued behind the situation
16 like that? You cannot be found liable.
17 A. I'm not a lawyer. I'm sorry.
18 Q. I know. But I'm just talking about your understanding.
19 A. But I'm not a lawyer, so I don't -- I don't have an
20 answer to that hypothetical.
21 Q. Well, are you -- well, do you think in your own opinion
22 that if you relied on advice of the City Attorney's Office and
23 you complied with that advice and somebody turns around and
24 sues you -- or I guess the technical term would be to
25 prosecute you, not in a criminal sense, but in a civil sense

Vol 21 - 36
09:18:06 1 for your actions, do you think that you would be covered
2 because you relied on the advice of the city attorney?
3 MS. SALDANA: Object on the grounds of relevance and
4 speculation.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. GREENE:
7 Q. Now, obviously -- well, city employees -- and I guess
8 people who come under the umbrella of the City, are covered by
9 the City Attorney's Office, right?
10 A. Can you explain to me what you mean by "covered."
11 Q. Well, I don't mean covered.
12 THE COURT: Well, that's what you said.
13 MR. GREENE: Yes. That was an inartful term.
14 BY MR. GREENE:
09:19:15 15 Q. But the City Attorney's Office is the attorney for city
16 employees in matters involving the City.
17 Would you agree with that?
18 A. I really don't know, because I have never been a city
19 employee. So I don't really know all -- I'm not an expert on
20 the relationship between employees and the city attorney.
21 Q. Okay. All right. But certainly public officials who
22 were under the auspices and elected by the City were covered
23 by the City Attorney's office, correct?
24 A. Again, I don't understand the term "covered."
25 Q. They would be -- well, never mind.

Vol 21 - 37
09:19:56 1 Let me show you what's been marked as Government's
2 Exhibit Number 1211.
3 MR. GREENE: I would ask Ms. Christensen to pull
4 that up. That's in evidence.
5 BY MR. GREENE:
6 Q. Do you see that article that came out -- Ms. Christensen,
7 if you would just highlight.
8 Thank you.
9 BY MR. GREENE:
10 Q. Do you see the date?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. September 23, 2004?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And at some point you accused Mr. Fantroy of
09:20:29 15 an ethical lapse, correct?
16 A. Can I see the story?
17 Q. Sure. You can actually read it if you want.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. Well, let me read it to you. It might save you the
20 headache.
21 A. I can read it.
22 Q. All right. But I kind of want the jury to be aware of
23 it.
24 It says, "Dallas Mayor Laura Miller accused city council
25 member James Fantroy" --

Vol 21 - 38
09:20:53 1 THE COURT: Everyone has this on their screen.
3 THE COURT: If you have a question, you can ask
4 about it. You don't need to read it aloud to the jury.
5 MR. GREENE: All right.
6 BY MR. GREENE:
7 Q. Do you want me to give you an opportunity the read
8 through it?
9 A. Well, I have read what's on the screen. If there is
10 more, I can -- if you would like me to read it, I could read
11 the rest of it.
12 Q. Well, would you like to read it, was my question.
13 A. Maybe you could ask me a question, and maybe I could
14 answer it off of what I have already read.
09:21:22 15 Q. All right. This was an article that came out in the
16 Dallas Morning News in 19 -- in 2004 after the Fantroy
17 incident at the city council, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. And this is an article where you accused
20 Mr. Fantroy of unethical behavior, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You are aware that the city council -- well, you're aware
23 that this deal that Mr. Fantroy -- that you accused
24 Mr. Fantroy of unethical behavior was approved by the city
25 council?

Vol 21 - 39
09:22:00 1 A. I don't know that. It doesn't say that.
2 Q. That's the whole point. I didn't want to have to read
3 the whole article to you, but that's the same situation we
4 were talking about earlier?
5 A. I don't know what this situation was. I just --
6 Q. All right. Well, let's just assume that this was the
7 situation --
8 MR. GREENE: And if you would scroll up to the top.
9 BY MR. GREENE:
10 Q. Now, this is the same situation involving Mr. Fantroy
11 with the ethical lapse. Okay?
12 A. That's what it says yes.
13 Q. Right do you disagree that that's what the article is
14 about?
09:22:30 15 A. That's apparently clearly what it's about.
16 Q. Okay. That was -- that was -- that same deal was
17 approved after an executive session to deal with that
18 conflict? Are you aware of that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. That's why I wanted you to read the article.
21 MR. GREENE: Ms. Christensen, could we flip to the
22 second page.
23 Actually it's page 3, I guess would be the point of my
24 question.
25 BY MR. GREENE:

Vol 21 - 40
09:22:55 1 Q. So it says "after calling executive session."
2 Okay. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. Could I please read the rest of the story?
6 Q. Well, I'll read it just so you have it.
7 "After calling executive session to deal with a conflict
8 in the middle of a council meeting last year, she said" --
9 referring to you -- "several council members asked the city
10 attorney to talk to Mr. Fantroy about dropping his contract.
11 Mr. Fantroy declined. The City Attorney's Office -- the city
12 attorney told the mayor that as long as he recuses himself
13 from council action, his business contract is not
14 inappropriate."
09:23:32 15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. So this confirmed Mr. Hill's opinion
18 initially.
20 A. I'm sorry. Do you mind if I just read the rest of this
21 article, because I think you're going to ask me some more
22 questions. I would like to read the rest of it.
23 Q. Well, your assumption is incorrect. I'm not going to ask
24 any more questions about the article.
25 But what I do want to ask you is about the fact that

Vol 21 - 41
09:23:58 1 Mr. Hill -- Councilman Hill was correct in his initial
2 assessment of whether it was improper or not what Mr. Fantroy
3 did.
4 Agreed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. What Councilman Hill told you was that he
7 didn't think that Mr. Fantroy had done anything improper?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. All right. In fact, that was the city attorney's opinion
10 also.
11 MR. HASKEL: Objection.
13 BY MR. GREENE:
14 Q. Right?
09:24:39 15 A. We're talking about two different sets of circumstances.
16 Q. Okay. Well, we're talking about the Fantroy incident. I
17 won't read the article again. I won't belabor it.
18 But the point of the matter is, city attorney told the
19 mayor that as long as he recuses himself from council action,
20 a business contract is not inappropriate.
21 MR. HASKEL: Objection, privilege.
23 BY MR. GREENE:
24 Q. You saw that in the article, correct?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 42
09:25:04 1 Q. All right. Now --
2 THE COURT: Okay. Let me see counsel at the bench
3 for a moment, please.
4 (Discussion at the bench.)
5 THE COURT: We have gone 30 minutes, and I haven't
6 heard one question about Mr. Lee. Mr. Jackson -- Mr. Jackson
7 is representing Mr. Hill.
8 MR. GREENE: Oh, I know.
9 THE COURT: You can't get up here again and ask
10 questions that are questions about the conduct of Mr. Hill
11 except as it relates to Mr. Lee. You said you had a half an
12 hour, and you have gone half an hour. So you need to move
13 along, please.
09:25:47 15 Your Honor, the only thing I was going to get into now
16 was that Mr. Lee relied on the advice of Mr. Hill.
17 THE COURT: Okay. That's fine.
18 (Back from the bench.)
19 BY MR. GREENE:
20 Q. You knew Mr. Lee was a city planning commissioner?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. He was the appointee of Councilman Don Hill,
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And that he was young for a city plan

Vol 21 - 43
09:26:55 1 commissioner, correct?
2 A. Not necessarily.
3 Q. Younger than you obviously -- well, I shouldn't get into
4 that.
5 THE COURT: I'm not going to stop you from going
6 there if you want to. Go right ahead.
7 MR. GREENE: Let me withdraw that, Ms. Miller.
8 BY MR. GREENE:
9 Q. All right. Maybe not younger than you.
10 Anyway, at some point after that -- at some point Mr. Lee
11 would report to Mr. Hill, Councilman Hill, correct?
12 A. At some point.
13 Q. And -- I mean, the point of having a planning and zoning
14 commissioner is so you stay in contact with each other to talk
09:27:45 15 about zoning matters and other things?
16 A. Sure.
17 Q. And you would expect that a new city planning
18 commissioner -- and Mr. Lee was new, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. I don't know what year he was appointed, but at the time
22 he was appointed he was new.
23 Q. But in January 2004 -- January 2004, I think the evidence
24 is, is when he first took office.
25 A. Okay.

Vol 21 - 44
09:28:08 1 Q. We're talking in the summer of 2004.
2 Relatively new?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. And he would -- it would be prudent for him to speak to
5 Mr. Hill, his appointee (sic) about matters that he was
6 unaware of, correct?
7 A. Speak to him, yes.
8 Q. All right. And almost in sort of a mentoring type of
9 situation as to what a CPC commissioner could and couldn't do.
11 A. I don't know. I don't know what their relationship was.
12 Q. All right. And if Don Hill -- similar, if Don Hill, the
13 attorney, and Don Hill the city councilman, these are the
14 parameters in which you could operate, and that -- as we see
09:29:00 15 on the Elmo -- as long as you excuse yourself from council
16 actions or CPC actions, any business contracts you have would
17 be appropriate, that would be an affirmative defense for
18 Mr. Lee?
19 MS. SALDANA: Your Honor, I object to asking for a
20 legal conclusion of this witness.
21 THE COURT: That's sustained.
22 MR. GREENE: I withdraw that.
23 BY MR. GREENE:
24 Q. Let's move on to another subject.
25 Kind of what I wanted to talk to you about was, at some

Vol 21 - 45
09:29:34 1 point after -- after -- after this executive session and after
2 the Fantroy -- after the Fisher contract was approved, at some
3 point you ran into a Leon Backes, I believe you said. Is that
4 correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Mr. Backes was the partner of Mr. Fisher, correct?
7 A. I think he was the employer of Mr. Fisher.
8 Q. They worked together, I guess is my point.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At some point you brought up this contract with
11 Mr. Fisher and Mr. Fantroy?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Did Mr. Backes say to you that he thought Mr. Fisher was
14 a bad actor, and not in the sense of an actor in a movie?
09:30:19 15 A. I don't recall that term.
16 Q. All right. Now, did you have an opportunity to -- well,
17 you had an opportunity to go speak to the FBI in regards to
18 the matter, correct?
19 A. When?
20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to go speak to the FBI in
21 regards to this matter ever?
22 A. Only when asked to talk to them.
23 Q. Absolutely. And you went down and talked to them,
24 correct?
25 A. Yes. No -- well, no, I didn't.

Vol 21 - 46
09:30:47 1 Q. You all talked. Maybe that's a better question.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And you were aware that they were trying to take
4 down notes as to what you were saying, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. And have you seen some of those notes in
7 regards to that specific comment, that Mr. Fisher was a bad
8 actor that you said Mr. Backes related to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. If I showed you that, would that refresh your
11 recollection as to that comment?
12 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps.
13 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, permission to approach the
14 witness?
09:31:31 15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 (Sotto voce discussion between Greene and Miller.)
17 THE COURT: The issue is does that document refresh
18 your recollection.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 BY MR. GREENE:
21 Q. Did you review that document?
22 A. I reviewed that statement.
23 Q. All right. Did that refresh your recollection about the
24 bad actor comment Mr. Backes made about Mr. Fisher?
25 A. That term specifically, no.

Vol 21 - 47
09:32:13 1 Q. Would you agree that Mr. Backes thought that Mr. Fisher
2 was a bad person?
3 A. I think that he questioned his ethics. That's generally
4 what we talked about.
5 Q. And did Mr. Backes tell you that he thought Mr. Fisher
6 was conniving?
7 A. Not that I recall. That term, no.
8 Q. But what you do know is that at some point around that
9 time Mr. Backes and Mr. Fisher had a parting of the ways?
10 A. It was some time after this all had happened. I just
11 don't know the time frame exactly.
12 Q. That's -- okay. By parting of the ways, they were no
13 longer employer-employee, partner interest, whatever it was?
14 A. Correct.
09:33:00 15 Q. That was sometime after the comments -- after the
16 discussion between you and Mr. Backes?
17 A. Well, there were two different times that I talked to
18 him.
19 Q. Okay. But at some point after those discussions they
20 were no longer working together?
21 A. Well, one discussion was after they had already split.
22 Q. All right. Now, let's kind of move on to a person by the
23 name of Kathy Nealy.
24 Do you know Ms. Nealy?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 48
09:33:39 1 Q. How do you know Kathy Nealy?
2 A. She's a consultant who works on a lot of different issues
3 at city hall, and she's at city hall quite often.
4 Q. Now, there has been some indication that Ms. Nealy and
5 yourself didn't get along.
6 Is that accurate?
7 A. No. We just didn't speak very often.
8 Q. Was there a reason for that?
9 A. Not that I recall.
10 Q. All right. Did you trust Ms. Nealy?
11 A. I didn't know her very well.
12 Q. Okay. But that's not my question.
13 My question is based on your knowledge of her, did you
14 trust her?
09:34:15 15 A. Well, I never dealt with her on anything that I would
16 have to trust her or not trust her.
17 Q. All right. So that's a -- it's neither a yes or a no,
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Didn't have an opinion one way or the other?
21 A. Well, I don't recall -- I really don't recall any times
22 that we dealt with each other on an issue, so I couldn't give
23 you any feedback.
24 Q. But if Ms. Nealy said you disliked her, would that be
25 accurate?

Vol 21 - 49
09:34:50 1 A. I just -- I didn't like her or dislike her. I just
2 didn't have any association with her. I didn't talk to her.
3 I maybe did talk to her once in the nine years I was at
4 city hall or twice. Not very often.
5 Q. Was she trying to talk to you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Well, would you classify that as not getting along?
8 A. No. I would classify that as not having interaction with
9 each other.
10 Q. Now, you're aware that Ms. Nealy was sort of a lobbyist
11 around city hall, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And one of her jobs was to go talk to different
14 councilmen and -- right?
09:35:36 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. You saw her doing that, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. To go talk to certain public officials, either board
19 members, CPC members, council members, et cetera?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And she had been down there during at least the seven
22 years you were there, right?
23 A. I was there nine years.
24 Q. Nine years. Okay. Excuse me. Nine years you were
25 there?

Vol 21 - 50
09:36:02 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Correct. And did she only try to talk to you on one
3 occasion?
4 A. I couldn't even say.
5 Q. Okay. Did you only talk to her on one occasion?
6 A. I can't even recall the last time I spoke with her.
7 Q. All right. Now, in regards to Mr. Lee's resignation, we
8 were talking about that yesterday, correct?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. There was a -- there was some sort of ethics complaint,
11 or that -- or something that you pushed to -- push is a bad
12 term -- that you brought up to the Dallas City Council,
13 correct?
14 A. Well, I asked the Dallas City Council to take action on
09:36:51 15 his appointment.
16 Q. Okay. And at some point you spoke to Mr. Hill about it,
17 correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And I think your testimony was yesterday that he didn't
20 think it was appropriate, right?
21 A. What was appropriate?
22 Q. That removal of Mr. Lee was warranted?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. At some point it came before the city council as to
25 whether or not -- and by coming before the city council there

Vol 21 - 51
09:37:14 1 was a vote of the city council to -- whether or not to
2 terminate Mr. Lee or not, correct?
3 A. There was never a vote.
4 Q. All right. In fact, Mr. Lee did not get terminated after
5 he came before the city council, right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. All right. Now, there was a lot of -- during the time
8 that the FBI search warrants came down it was -- we saw it on
9 some of the video, there was a lot of media swirling around
10 obviously, right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Sort of like it is now when you go downstairs?
13 A. Much worse.
14 Q. Okay. And the CPC commission is a two-year appointment,
09:37:57 15 I believe, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Mr. Lee started -- he was appointed in 2003.
19 A. I thought you said January 2004.
20 Q. He took office in January of 2004.
21 A. Oh, okay.
22 Q. But he was nominated by Councilman Hill in 2003?
23 A. (Nodding head up and down.)
24 Q. In 2005 -- in September of 2005, after almost two years
25 on the council, at some point Mr. Lee decided to resign,

Vol 21 - 52
09:38:28 1 correct?
2 A. He resigned at a specific time, yes.
3 Q. And that was in September of 2005, I believe it was?
4 A. I don't recall the date.
5 Q. All right. But I guess my point is you had all the media
6 swirling around, you had everybody trying to videotape
7 yourself, videotape Mr. Lee, his family, things like that.
8 You're aware of that, right?
9 A. I wasn't aware of Mr. Lee's family situation.
10 Q. Were you aware that they were -- some of the media was
11 trying to go to his house to film his boys and things like
12 that?
13 A. I don't recall that.
14 Q. You understand that this was a -- the CPC commission is a
09:39:10 15 voluntary commission, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You don't get paid for doing it?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Lee did the prudent thing by just
20 deciding, since he was at the end of his term anyway, to
21 resign?
22 A. I don't know what was going on in his thoughts at that
23 time.
24 Q. Okay. But what you do know is that he did resign after
25 two years on the CPC, correct?

Vol 21 - 53
09:39:33 1 A. I don't know the exact date.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
3 MR. GREENE: Nothing further.
4 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
5 Any further examination by the defense?
6 (No response.)
8 Ms. Saldana.
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. SALDANA:
11 Q. Ms. Miller, you were asked yesterday about Brian
12 Potashnik's nomination to the housing task force that you
13 created back in 2002, was it?
14 A. I think that was the time frame.
09:40:18 15 Q. And just to be clear, did you actually appoint
16 Mr. Potashnik to that commission?
17 A. Well, Mr. Williams and I put together the task force. I
18 certainly would have recommended that Mr. Potashnik serve.
19 Q. You said yesterday you didn't recall either the number or
20 the particular individuals who are on this task force. Is
21 that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I gave you a copy
24 of the final report of August 2002 of this commission, a list
25 of those members?

Vol 21 - 54
09:40:49 1 A. Yes.
2 MS. SALDANA: If I may approach, your Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
4 BY MS. SALDANA:
5 Q. Now, you were asked specifically about other developers
6 first. Then whether there were other developers who did
7 affordable housing, or had some connection with affordable
8 housing, and you couldn't recall specifically other than
9 Mr. Williams.
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Looking at that list, how many members were there on this
13 task force?
14 A. Eighteen.
09:41:32 15 Q. Do you see any other person besides Mr. Williams and
16 Mr. Potashnik who actually had some connection to multi-family
17 development and affordable housing?
18 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I object if she's reading
19 from a document. I don't know if the document is in evidence,
20 or what she's been shown.
21 THE COURT: The question is appropriate. I overrule
22 the objection.
23 A. Yes, there are -- should I go through the list.
24 BY MS. SALDANA:
25 Q. Yes, if you would, please.

Vol 21 - 55
09:42:01 1 THE COURT: All right. If that's what is going to
2 happen, then the objection is sustained.
3 BY MS. SALDANA:
4 Q. Let me ask you.
5 Does the document refresh your recollection if there were
6 any other developers who --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who were they?
9 A. John Edmond.
10 MR. STEINKE: Well, your Honor, she's now reading
11 from the document.
12 THE COURT: Do you want to offer this document,
13 Counsel?
14 MS. SALDANA: It's not on our list yet, Judge.
09:42:23 15 THE COURT: I'll permit you to supplement the list
16 to offer it.
17 MR. VITAL: No objection to the document.
18 THE COURT: Give me a number.
19 (No response.)
20 THE COURT: 10001.
21 MS. SALDANA: Thank you, Judge. Government's 10001.
22 THE COURT: That's admitted.
23 BY MS. SALDANA:
24 Q. All right. Now, that the document is in evidence, would
25 you go ahead and tell the jury if there are any other

Vol 21 - 56
09:42:47 1 individuals on this document who had some connection to
2 affordable housing or multi-family development.
3 A. Jon Edmonds developed projects, affordable housing
4 projects.
5 Carlos Herrera.
6 Shirley Roberts.
7 Hank Lawson. His name is Henry, but his nickname was
8 Hank.
9 And then Centex is on here. Mr. Hirsch was the head of
10 Centex. They did multi-family housing.
11 Then there were representatives from the Enterprise
12 Foundation and Fannie Mae and both of those organizations
13 contracted with the City on a regular basis to help with
14 mortgage financing for low-income housing.
09:43:31 15 Q. How many is that total then, including Mr. Potashnik and
16 Mr. Williams, about who you had already testified?
17 A. Well, there were nine that were directly involved with
18 affordable housing projects, and doing business in affordable
19 housing.
20 Q. Of the recommendations made by that task force, not all
21 of them dealt with affordable housing, did they?
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. And all of those individuals you listed have in some
24 manner contributed to the task force final report?
25 A. I wasn't at the meeting, so I don't know what their

Vol 21 - 57
09:44:14 1 participating level was.
2 Q. Would they have all benefited in some manner other than
3 Mr. Potashnik with any particular recommendation regarding
4 affordable housing?
5 A. Most of them could have had -- well, virtually all of
6 them could have had some type of benefit from their businesses
7 because they all work in finance, affordable housing.
8 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about --
9 A. I'm sorry. With the exception of one or two that clearly
10 are not in that business.
11 Q. Okay. Yesterday you were asked about -- by one of the
12 defense counsel about Southwest Center Mall, and also the fact
13 that you thought at least generally speaking you weren't aware
14 of Mr. Hill doing anything wrong. I think that was the
09:45:04 15 question to you.
16 Do you recall that testimony?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And I'll ask you, with respect particularly to Southwest
19 Center Mall, did you at some point become aware of Mr. Hill's
20 connection to the Dallas Police & Fire Pension Fund and the
21 Lancaster-Kiest corridor project?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell the jury what that was.
24 A. I was told before a council meeting one day that
25 another --

Vol 21 - 58
09:45:33 1 MR. VITAL: Objection, hearsay.
3 BY MS. SALDANA:
4 Q. Just tell the jury what the connection was that you
5 became aware of?
6 A. That --
7 MR. VITAL: Foundation, your Honor. Objection
8 foundation.
10 A. That Mr. Hill planned on asking the pension -- the police
11 and fire pension board members to vote to invest some of the
12 employee pension money in a development deal at
13 Lancaster-Kiest.
14 Q. The jury saw Exhibit 663 and all that flurry of e-mails
09:46:08 15 back and forth between you and Mr. Hill regarding Southwest
16 Center Mall.
17 Do you remember we went over that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did Mr. Hill ever tell you that he had an interest in the
20 Lancaster-Kiest -- or some other connection with the
21 Lancaster-Kiest corridor project?
22 MR. VITAL: Objection, that assumes facts not in
23 evidence.
25 A. No.

Vol 21 - 59
09:46:28 1 BY MS. SALDANA:
2 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Hill, once you learned that he
3 had some intention to use funds from the Dallas Fire & Pension
4 Fund, did you have a discussion with him about that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did y'all discuss?
7 A. I asked him why he thought it would be appropriate to use
8 Dallas employees' pension money to invest in a local real
9 estate deal that he thought was a good idea.
10 Q. And what was his response to you?
11 A. He said, "Stay out of my dam business."
12 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about reasons Mr. Hill had
13 given, at least on the tape we heard, for resisting the ethics
14 commission and any tightening of the ethical rules.
09:47:20 15 Do you remember defense asking you about that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the end was the ethics commission and the rules
18 tightened as much as you would have liked to as a result of
19 Mr. Hill's resistance?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Explain that answer to the jury.
22 A. There were many other recommendations made by both myself
23 and the ethics advisory commission to make the ethics
24 commission have more teeth and for the ethics code to be
25 stronger and Mr. Hill led the opposition to those changes.

Vol 21 - 60
09:48:02 1 Q. Recruited others? Is that what you are saying?
2 A. Well, he led -- it was his very strong opposition that
3 led to the majority of the council voting no.
4 Q. Did you or any other member of the city council express
5 that you wanted the ethics commission and the rules tightened
6 just to apply to minority members?
7 A. Never.
8 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about staff recommendations
9 and whether the city council was allowed to go against them or
10 not.
11 Do you remember that question?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Again, bottom line, how often did the city council
14 actually act against plan recommendations on significant
09:48:52 15 matters before the city council?
16 A. What do you mean by the plan recommendations?
17 Q. The planning department's recommendations to the city
18 council on acting on zoning matters, or any other matter that
19 they're making recommendations to the city council?
20 A. Well, if you're looking narrowly at the zoning issues,
21 the plan commission -- it's not unusual for the planning
22 commission to go against the staff recommendation.
23 Q. Would you say more often than not they would do that?
24 A. It wasn't unusual to go against, especially on zoning
25 cases.

Vol 21 - 61
09:49:32 1 Q. How about where the matters had more complex zoning
2 issues?
3 A. It was -- it was more -- it was much more unusual to go
4 against staff on issues that did not involve zoning
5 specifically. Zoning was -- it was more likely to vote
6 against a recommendation on a zoning issue.
7 Q. Now, with respect to -- I think you were asked about a
8 particular city council member could go against the
9 recommendation.
10 How about the city council as a body in the end, would
11 they typically do that on matters that were significant before
12 the city council?
13 A. As a body we first and foremost always asked what did the
14 staff think, what was the staff recommendation.
09:50:34 15 And if it wasn't your district, then generally the
16 council would -- their first instinct would be to go with
17 staff.
18 Q. If the city council member of that district was not
19 inclined to vote with the staff recommendation, would the body
20 follow, of the city council?
21 A. Depending on the type of case it was.
22 Q. You were asked a number of questions yesterday about
23 Brian Potashnik's comments to you relating to his demands that
24 were made by him by city council members.
25 Do you remember those questions?

Vol 21 - 62
09:51:18 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I think some of those questions were focused on
3 Councilman Chaney.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And just so the record is clear, what impression -- based
7 on what Mr. Potashnik told you, were you left about his
8 complaints? Did they pertain to only one council member or
9 more?
10 A. He was speaking about multiple council members.
11 Q. He did not identify more. Is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. But in the end he ended up cutting off the conversation
14 before you could get any further?
09:51:56 15 A. Well, he just wouldn't answer my question when I asked
16 what he was talking about.
17 Q. Now, along this same lines of Mr. Hill's conduct, and
18 whether he did anything wrong --
19 MS. SALDANA: If we can pull up Exhibit Number 3251,
20 please.
21 BY MS. SALDANA:
22 Q. Do you remember we talked about yesterday the 2001 new
23 city council orientation which enclosed regulations and rules
24 and laws pertaining to ethics?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 63
09:52:35 1 Q. In particular, with respect to state laws that govern
2 ethics, which is on page 6 of the document.
3 MS. SALDANA: If we could go to that page.
4 BY MS. SALDANA:
5 Q. Isn't it --
6 MS. SALDANA: I'm sorry. I have got it marked as
7 page 6 on the bottom.
8 All right. Ours don't have the same number on the
9 bottom. I don't know, but let's go to the table of contents,
10 which I have got as the fourth page.
11 Keep going. Okay.
12 Now, I don't know how to refer you to that page.
13 Let's just keep scrolling through until we get to state
14 laws pertaining to ethics and conflicts of interest.
09:53:52 15 Okay. Stop there. You had it right there, the page
16 before.
17 Thank you.
18 Okay. Sorry, your Honor, we have got a little typo
19 situation going on here.
20 BY MS. SALDANA:
21 Q. You were asked yesterday about Mr. Hill's having told you
22 that he thought the Fantroy relationship with Mr. Fisher was
23 all right.
24 Do you remember those questions about that?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 64
09:54:22 1 Q. Is it correct that the -- let's focus on paragraph 3.
2 Is it correct that the ethics provision that
3 pertains to city council members, including Mr. Hill, actually
4 talk about the fact that not only do you not vote, but you
5 must abstain --
6 MS. SALDANA: If you can highlight the first full
7 sentence.
8 BY MS. SALDANA:
9 Q. "The city council member must file an affidavit stating
10 the extent of the interest, and abstain from any participation
11 in the matter."
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Is that what was concerning you about the fact that
14 Mr. Hill seemed to already know that Mr. Fantroy had a
09:55:04 15 contract with Mr. Fisher?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Explain that answer to the jury.
18 MR. VITAL: Objection, your Honor, to the extent
19 that this is a legal opinion, and I think that question calls
20 for one.
21 THE COURT: All right. Well, don't give a legal
22 opinion in your answer. I don't think it does call for that,
23 and I'm instructing you not to give that.
24 Objection overruled in part.
25 A. One of the important things about if you have a conflict

Vol 21 - 65
09:55:31 1 of interest is not only that you recuse yourself from the vote
2 and not participate in the briefing meetings or action
3 meetings, but you are specifically told over and over again
4 that you cannot discuss with any of your colleagues anything
5 about that matter, because you have a conflict, and therefore
6 you should not be having any conversation about the issue with
7 anybody.
8 Q. Based on that, what did you believe -- what did
9 Mr. Hill's comments to you indicate to you about his
10 knowledge?
11 A. That he had talked to Mr. Fantroy about the fact that he
12 couldn't vote on the matter, and why he couldn't vote on the
13 matter.
14 Q. With respect to that article that Mr. Greene showed you
09:56:14 15 from the Dallas Morning News after the August 2003 city
16 council meeting where Ms. Thornton-Reese made the comment that
17 she was carrying the motion on behalf of Mr. Fantroy, did that
18 also cause you concern with respect to this provision about
19 participating in the matter?
20 A. It wasn't that she stated that she was handling it for
21 Mr. Fantroy, because if you have a conflict and you can't
22 handle something, someone has to make a motion.
23 But what concerned us was during the item when we were
24 discussing it, she kept -- when someone would try to change
25 the proposal or change the development she would say

Vol 21 - 66
09:56:52 1 Mr. Fantroy doesn't want me to do that. So therefore there
2 had obviously been conversations between Mr. Fantroy and
3 Dr. Reese about how he wanted the item to be handled.
4 Q. And with respect to further down in this document, I
5 think someone just indicated to me that I said August '03 is
6 when Ms. Thornton-Reese made that comment. It was actually
7 the following year in September of '04.
9 A. I remember the incident. I don't remember the date.
10 Q. Okay. Your answer doesn't change regardless of the date?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, with respect to the same code, and I will just hand
13 you the pages if you have a problem answering this question.
14 You were asked yesterday about an appearance of conflict
09:57:44 15 of interest versus an actual conflict of interest.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it correct that the Dallas City Code in the ethics
19 provisions actually talks about avoiding appearances of
20 conflict of interest?
21 A. Yes, as I recall.
22 Q. And also that no city official or employee can have any
23 financial interest, direct or indirect, on a matter upon which
24 he participates.
25 Do you recall that?

Vol 21 - 67
09:58:13 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You are aware of the video that the jury has already been
3 shown put together by the City Attorney's Office relating to
4 these same provisions?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Available to all city council members?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about certain campaign
9 contributions that the Potashniks made to you.
10 Do you remember those questions from the defense counsel?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in looking at your campaign contributions, would it
13 surprise you to learn that the Potashniks made no
14 contributions to you while you were a city council member.
09:59:10 15 MR. VITAL: Objection to the leading question.
17 BY MS. SALDANA:
18 Q. Do you know whether or not the Potashniks made any
19 contributions to you before you ran for mayor?
20 A. I don't believe they did.
21 Q. And do you recall actually voting on matters in favor of
22 Southwest Housing before they even made their first
23 contribution to you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In favor of Southwest Housing?

Vol 21 - 68
09:59:32 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What were those favorable votes for Southwest Housing --
3 on what basis would you have made those favorable votes?
4 A. Because they were a good project for my district.
5 Q. Same true -- does the same hold true throughout the
6 entire time you voted for Southwest Housing?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I believe you were shown a document yesterday to
9 refresh your recollection regarding some contributions in --
10 on February 14, 2002.
11 Do you remember these questions?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever exceed the limits allowed by law in
14 receiving contributions from either Mr. Potashnik or
10:00:27 15 Ms. Potashnik?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did the document that you have in front of you actually
18 indicate that the second contribution on February 14, 2002 was
19 made out from a checking account made out to both -- held by
20 Brian and Cheryl Potashnik.
21 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I object, because that's
22 not what the documents shows. The document shows names.
23 THE COURT: On this one I'm going to sustain the
24 objection because the jury doesn't have the document.
25 So develop that one more fully. That objection is

Vol 21 - 69
10:00:58 1 sustained.
2 BY MS. SALDANA:
3 Q. Do you recall receiving a check from the Potashniks on
4 February 14, 2002 -- or around -- dated February 14, 2002 that
5 was from a joint account of the Potashniks?
6 A. I recall being shown a document yesterday that had both
7 of their names on it.
8 Q. How would it have been accounted for in your campaign
9 reports?
10 A. When you received checks, we always -- whatever the check
11 stated in terms of the name that was on the check, we wrote
12 down the name that was written on the check.
13 So yesterday -- well, that's my answer.
14 Q. Now, based on that would you have -- how would you have
10:01:46 15 accounted for, for that second check from the Potashniks for
16 $5,000 on that day? Would it have been attributed to Cheryl
17 Potashnik or Mr. Potashnik?
18 A. Well, based on what I was shown yesterday there was a
19 contribution -- two contributions came in on the same day, as
20 I recall from what I was shown by defense counsel yesterday.
21 One was from Cheryl Geisner, that's her maiden name. The
22 other one was from Brian and Cheryl Potashnik.
23 That would have been one check from the wife, and one
24 check on behalf of the husband. That is the limit that you
25 can accept a contribution if that's the amount.

Vol 21 - 70
10:02:29 1 Q. Now, the jury heard you comment about those particular
2 checks, and how you accounted for them.
3 You said something, I believe in response to one of
4 defendant's -- defense counsel's question -- that you did not
5 necessarily -- what was recorded was a date of the -- that
6 was -- appeared on the check. Is that right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Explain to the jury what you meant by that answer in
9 distinguishing it, when you actually received it.
10 A. Because there were thousands and thousands of checks that
11 came in over a fairly short period of time we had a protocol
12 for all campaign contributions. And the checks would come in
13 and the person that entered it into an Excel spreadsheet would
14 take the date from the check to be consistent, and then the
10:03:21 15 name of the person as written on the check and put it into the
16 computer. So --
17 Q. Let me stop you there, Ms. Miller.
18 Who actually handled your contributions and finances in
19 your campaign?
20 A. It was different for 2002 and 2003.
21 Q. Go ahead.
22 A. In 2002 I had a campaign treasurer, and I would pick up
23 the check that came to my P.O. Box in Oak Cliff, and then --
24 then I would take them at some point -- so if the check was
25 written on January 1st and mailed at some point after that, I

Vol 21 - 71
10:04:04 1 may not get it for a couple of weeks. I would -- just
2 whenever I picked it up from the P.O. Box I would take it to
3 the campaign treasurer, and then they would put it into
4 contributions, do a deposit slip, deposit the money. Then
5 somebody else got to Excel sheets to start writing thank you
6 notes. So it was a pretty complicated process.
7 Q. Did people actually hand you campaign contributions
8 personally?
9 A. Very rarely. If I had an event, but I rarely had an
10 event.
11 Q. Do you recall the Potashniks ever handing you a
12 contribution personally?
13 A. No.
14 Q. With respect to your reports, did you receive assistance
10:04:45 15 in preparing those?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you sign them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How would you characterize your recordkeeping in that
20 regard?
21 A. It was very fastidious.
22 Q. If I told you that I took one of your campaign reports
23 and the first contribution there was for a dollar, is that an
24 example of how fastidious you were?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 72
10:05:24 1 Q. Is it your practice to take contributions in cash?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When you solicited contributions in any of your races,
4 typically how did you receive your contributions?
5 A. In the form of a check in the mail.
6 Q. Do you know what the term "walking-around money" means?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever use campaign contribution for personal
9 purposes?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Would that be allowable?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You were asked questions yesterday about Mr. Hill and
14 concerns about hiring minority contractors.
10:06:19 15 Do you remember those questions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there an occasion where Mr. Hill asked you to hire a
18 particular minority contractor?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell the jury what that was.
21 A. It was a developer named Matthew Harden.
22 Q. What were the circumstances of Mr. Hill asking you to do
23 that?
24 A. It was a vote we were taking at the D/FW board where I
25 was a member.

Vol 21 - 73
10:06:52 1 Q. Who was the chair of that board?
2 A. At the time -- I don't remember who the chair was at the
3 time.
4 Q. Do you know who Pam Gates is?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who is she?
7 A. She was one of the City's appointees to the D/FW airport
8 board at the time.
9 Q. Did Mr. Hill tell you that he wanted an African-American
10 hired in connection with construction contracts?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And tell the jury what you recall him asking you to do.
13 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, I object to the relevance to
14 this case.
10:07:34 15 THE COURT: Relevance.
16 MS. SALDANA: It's an ethics issue, Judge.
17 THE COURT: I'm sustaining the objection.
18 BY MS. SALDANA:
19 Q. Now, you were asked about these votes on Laureland and
20 Scyene projects, both Southwest Housing projects, in October
21 of 2004.
22 Do you recall those questions?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At that time I think you have indicated -- did you know
25 that the Dallas Housing Authority was actually involved in

Vol 21 - 74
10:08:08 1 that project?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Before the vote?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you learn at some point that they had been?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was the matter that was presented for the city council
8 accurate as to the ownership of the interest in the two
9 projects when you voted on it with respect to Dallas Housing
10 Authority's involvement?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Would it have been important to you to know that at the
13 time you were considering your vote?
14 A. Yes.
10:08:37 15 Q. Why?
16 A. Because if the Dallas Housing Authority was going to be a
17 part owner in the project, or the owner of the project, then
18 we would have a tax implication for the City, you would not
19 have been able to get the taxes from the project that we were
20 anticipating if it were a privately-owned project.
21 Q. Did Mr. Hill ever tell you that he had any connection or
22 interest in either one of those projects?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did he tell you whether Mr. Lee had any interest or
25 connection to those projects?

Vol 21 - 75
10:09:11 1 A. No.
2 Q. Would that have been important for you to know?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you aware that Sheila Farrington at the time had a
5 contract with Southwest Housing in connection with those
6 projects?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And that she was his mistress at the time? Were you
9 aware of that, Mr. Hill's mistress?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Would that have been important for you to know when you
12 voted on the project?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could that have made a difference in your vote?
10:09:41 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would it have made a difference?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The jury has heard evidence of -- with respect to this
19 birthday party as being either a fund raiser or a private
20 party.
21 You said you were told it was a private party by Mr. Lee?
22 A. I wasn't told anything except that it was a birthday
23 party.
24 Q. And if in fact it was a fund-raiser, would that have to
25 be reported on the appropriate campaign reports?

Vol 21 - 76
10:10:19 1 A. Yes.
2 MS. SALDANA: I pass the witness, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, I have very brief redirect.
5 THE COURT: I'll see you at the bench.
6 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to go ahead and try to
7 finish with this witness, so we are going to be taking our
8 break just a little bit later.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Tell me where you're going.
11 MR. VITAL: The new exhibit that came in, number
12 one.
13 Number two, I would like to ask Ms. Miller with respect
14 to Thornton-Reese what the actions that she took under these
10:10:56 15 ethics laws that Ms. Saldana put up, I think it's 3254.
16 And the final thing is to point out that the contract
17 does not pertain to Rosemont at Laureland or Scyene, my
18 client's contract.
19 Those are my only three areas.
20 MR. JACKSON: I would like to talk to her about the
21 Dallas pension board. Under optional completeness, I would
22 like to play the full recording from that ethics discussion
23 that they were having -- that they keep talking and singling
24 out Mr. Hill. And --
25 THE COURT: When it's been played?

Vol 21 - 77
10:11:30 1 MR. JACKSON: They played only a portion of it.
2 THE COURT: That doesn't have anything to do with
3 re-cross. I'm not permitting that.
4 MR. JACKSON: Okay. And -- huh -- huh -- can I look
5 at my notes real quick?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Anybody else have anything?
8 MR. VITAL: I think that's it.
9 THE COURT: Mr. Vital, I'm assuming you're going to
10 be quick because the jury has to go to the bathroom, and I'm
11 not going to let them go.
12 MR. VITAL: Yes.
13 MR. JACKSON: I would like to discuss what interest,
14 if any, she knew Mr. Hill had in any project that was being
10:12:52 15 developed at the Lancaster-Kiest Shopping Center.
17 THE COURT: All right. Are you up first, Mr. Vital?
18 MR. VITAL: I'll go first, your Honor.
19 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. VITAL:
21 Q. Hello again.
22 A. Hello.
23 Q. I just want to cover a few brief topics with you.
24 First of all I wanted to ask you if you hold yourself out
25 as a campaign finance expert?

Vol 21 - 78
10:13:28 1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Do you know whether there are those in the State of
3 Texas?
4 A. Yes, there are.
5 Q. But you don't hold yourself out to this jury to be an
6 expert to give opinions on campaign finance issues, do you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. I think the first thing we should do is talk
9 about Government's Exhibit 10001. I think you might have it.
10 All right. So we talked to the jury about these task
11 force members, the affordable housing force members.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think what we have here on this exhibit are actually
10:14:23 15 checkmarks on page 8 of this exhibit that purport to
16 demonstrate which of these folks did -- or entities did
17 multi-family. Is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Jonathon Edmonds is the first one.
20 Do you see that there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He did affordable housing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did he do tax credits?
25 A. I don't know.

Vol 21 - 79
10:14:50 1 Q. Do you know that tax credits are what we're here about on
2 this case about?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tax credit affordable housing.
5 A. Well, I'm sorry. Can I change my answer?
6 Q. You don't know?
7 A. No, I do know.
8 Q. Did Brian Potashnik do tax --
9 THE COURT: Well, the witness has asked if she can
10 correct her answer. If she needs to correct her answer, I'm
11 going to let her.
12 BY MR. VITAL:
13 Q. Sure. Go ahead.
14 A. When you say tax credit projects, can you explain what
10:15:16 15 you mean by that?
16 MR. VITAL: I'll withdraw that question.
17 BY MR. VITAL:
18 Q. Did Brian Potashnik do tax credit projects?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did Bill Fisher do tax credit projects?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are the cases at issue in this bribery and extortion
23 case, do they pertain to tax credit projects?
25 Q. If you know.

Vol 21 - 80
10:15:38 1 A. I know it includes that, yes.
2 Q. What I think you told this jury is that Jon Edmonds does
3 deal with tax credits as far as you know?
4 A. I just don't know.
5 Q. Let's just expedite this so I don't have --
6 A. May I explain?
7 Q. Can you tell the jury if there is anybody on this list
8 that does -- that has in the past or does presently deal with
9 tax credit projects?
10 A. Well, let me add -- explain my last answer. And I
11 apologize.
12 After we put a moratorium on all tax credit projects
13 after the FBI came to city hall in '05, one of the requests
14 that was made to the staff from Mr. Williams and the
10:16:29 15 Foundation for Community Empowerment where Ms. Edmondson was
16 working --
17 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the
18 nonresponsive answer.
19 BY MR. VITAL:
20 Q. And the only reason I'm doing this, I have a limited
21 amount of time.
22 THE COURT: All right. Counsel, move ahead to your
23 next question.
24 BY MR. VITAL:
25 Q. My question to you is, is there anybody on here who is

Vol 21 - 81
10:16:47 1 presently doing tax credit projects, or in the past has done
2 tax credit projects?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who?
5 A. The Foundation for Community Empowerment, Mr. Edmonds and
6 Mr. Williams.
7 Q. Mr. Edmonds. When did he do tax credit projects?
8 A. Well, as I was saying before, the Foundation for
9 Community Empowerment, which is the employer here, which
10 Mr. Williams founded, asked us to make an exception to our
11 moratorium on tax credit projects that we put on place -- that
12 I put in place after the FBI came to city hall, because they
13 had a tax credit project, as I recall, that they wanted to
14 have approved. They wanted the staff and the council to lift
10:17:36 15 the moratorium so that they could proceed.
16 Q. Did Mr. Edmonds and the Foundation for Community
17 Empowerment do tax credits before this -- this task force was
18 formed?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. So you can't tell this jury that at the time Mr. Edmonds
21 was appointed to this task force that he actually did tax
22 credit projects, can you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Can you tell the jury whether there is anybody on this
25 list that you know for sure who did tax credit projects before

Vol 21 - 82
10:18:08 1 this task force was formed?
2 A. No.
3 Q. The task force was formed when?
4 A. I don't recall. It would have been in the neighborhood
5 of 2002, 2003. It would have it on this document, I would
6 assume.
7 Q. Sure. We don't have to establish it with you on the
8 stand, but I guess what I want to ask you is, do you know
9 whether Brian Potashnik actually did tax credit projects
10 before his appointment to the Affordable Housing Task Force?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. He did do them?
13 A. As I recall, the one project in my district that was a
14 seniors project, I thought -- I think it was a tax credit
10:18:52 15 project, but I could be wrong, but I believed it was.
16 Q. So the one person on the list that is Government's
17 Exhibit 10001, page 8, that Ms. Saldana showed you and
18 introduced into evidence, the one person we do know who did
19 tax credit projects at the time of his or her appointment was
20 Brian Potashnik. Is that correct?
21 A. As I recall.
22 Q. You were shown -- moving to another topic.
23 You were shown an exhibit that dealt with ethics laws in
24 the City of Dallas.

Vol 21 - 83
10:19:28 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were not shown this, but I think you know that if
3 you are aware of an ethics violation you can file a complaint.
4 Do you know that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that is under that same set of ethics laws. Is that
7 right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. I think what you told this jury is as a result --
10 MR. VITAL: If I may have a moment.
11 BY MR. VITAL:
12 Q. As a result of the Fantroy situation -- he is deceased.
13 Is that right?
14 A. Correct.
10:20:06 15 Q. May he rest in peace.
16 As a result of that situation what you came to become
17 aware of is that Maxine Thornton-Reese was kind of -- going to
18 carry the motion. Is that right?
20 Q. Carry the motion on this Fisher project?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you thought that was improper?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So you didn't think that there was anything improper
25 about what Mr. Thornton-Reese was going to do?

Vol 21 - 84
10:20:39 1 A. Concerning what?
2 Q. Concerning carrying the motion for Mr. Fantroy?
3 A. No, that was not a problem.
4 Q. Were you -- did you think you were aware of any other
5 ethics violation as it pertained to Mr. Fantroy's recusal and
6 a vote being had on Fisher's project?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What was it that you thought you were aware of from an
9 ethics standpoint that was not proper?
10 A. That there had clearly been conversations between council
11 member Reese and council member Fantroy about how Mr. Fantroy
12 wanted the vote to proceed and the result of the vote that
13 under our ethics code was not permissible.
14 Q. And when did you file an ethics complaint about that?
10:21:31 15 A. I did not.
16 Q. How many ethics complaints have you ever filed on things
17 that you thought were improper?
18 A. None.
19 Q. You didn't file one on this one either?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You could have did that? You could have done that. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. While you did not file an ethics complaint on that
25 particular situation with respect to what you thought you were

Vol 21 - 85
10:21:52 1 aware of as being improper, we have seen from Government's
2 Exhibit 1211 that Mr. Fantroy declined, and the city attorney
3 told the mayor that as long as he, Fantroy himself, excuses
4 himself from the city -- from council action, his business --
5 MR. HASKEL: Objection, your Honor.
6 BY MR. VITAL:
7 Q. -- contract is not inappropriate.
8 MR. HASKEL: Your Honor --
9 BY MR. VITAL:
10 Q. Did I read that correctly?
11 THE COURT: Wait.
12 MR. HASKEL: Your Honor, the question discloses what
13 the City contends to be privilege. We ask that it be
14 stricken.
10:22:27 15 THE COURT: Well, I believe counsel is reading from
16 the newspaper article.
17 Were you not?
18 MR. VITAL: I thought I was, yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: The objection is noted and overruled.
20 You may answer.
21 BY MR. VITAL:
22 Q. Did I read that correctly?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. I'll try it again.
25 Is it not correct that what Government's Exhibit 1211

Vol 21 - 86
10:22:43 1 says, that Mr. Fantroy declined, and the city attorney --
2 that's Madeleine Johnson, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Madeleine Johnson told the mayor -- that's you. Is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That as long as Fantroy excuses himself from council
8 action, his business contract is not inappropriate.
9 Is that what it says?
10 MR. HASKEL: Objection.
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. VITAL: Can I have 1906, please.
14 BY MR. VITAL:
10:23:29 15 Q. You were asked about a contract with Farrington &
16 Associates.
17 Do you know who that is, or what that is?
18 A. Only from what I read in the newspaper.
19 Q. Mr. Potashnik never told you about this contract?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know whether this contract pertains to Rosemont at
22 Laureland as Ms. Saldana represented?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Do you know if it mentions that project?
25 A. I don't know.

Vol 21 - 87
10:23:51 1 MR. VITAL: Well, let's flip through it just
2 briefly.
3 BY MR. VITAL:
4 Q. Do you see whether this contract says it pertains to
5 Rosemont at Laureland?
6 A. (No response.)
7 Q. Based upon the language that we have on the screen here.
8 A. (No response.)
9 THE COURT: All right. Counsel, it doesn't seem to
10 be a productive use of our time for the witness --
11 MR. VITAL: Can I make a representation?
12 BY MR. VITAL:
13 Q. I will represent to you that this contract does not
14 mention the projects Rosemont at Laureland, nor does it
10:24:29 15 represent or state or reference Rosemont at Scyene.
16 Would you dispute that?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You weren't present when this contract was negotiated,
19 were you?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You were not privy to any discussions that D'Angelo Lee
22 may have had with Brian Potashnik, are you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So the fact of the matter, from the face of the document,
25 contrary to any questions you may have been asked --

Vol 21 - 88
10:24:54 1 THE COURT: Well, the witness -- wait a minute,
2 Counsel. The witness can't testify about the face of the
3 document unless she reads the document, and since she said
4 she's not familiar with it, I'm not going to have us spend the
5 time with her reading it.
6 You have made a representation. Let's move on.
7 MR. VITAL: But she was asked a question about the
8 document.
9 THE COURT: Well, if you want her to read it, then
10 we'll take a break and have her read it.
11 MR. VITAL: Thank you, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll
13 be in recess for 15 minutes.
14 Give the witness a hard copy of the document.
10:25:20 15 MR. VITAL: Yes, I sure will.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: All rise for the jury.
17 (Jury retired from the courtroom.)
18 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Vital.
20 BY MR. VITAL:
21 Q. Ms. Miller, when we broke for the morning break I was
22 talking to you about Government's Exhibit 1906.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But before you left the courtroom after the judge

Vol 21 - 89
10:42:29 1 announced the break I gave you another exhibit number, and
2 that was Government's Exhibit 82.
4 A. I recall you giving me a document, yes, sir.
5 Q. Does that look like the document I gave you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Government's Exhibit 82?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The second page appears to be a Farrington & Associates
10 contract.
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Which was the subject of some of my questions to you
14 before we left for the break?
10:43:10 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it was also the subject of questions to you from
17 Ms. Saldana.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you had an occasion to read -- or you had a chance to
21 read Government's Exhibit 82 while we were on break. Is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The two questions -- or the question I have for you,
25 isn't it true that this document does not reference Rosemont

Vol 21 - 90
10:43:34 1 at Laureland, nor does it reference Rosemont at Scyene?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Does -- are those words in this document? Did you see
4 Rosemont in the document?
5 A. Those words were not in the document.
6 Q. But there were -- there was a reference to some property
7 locations. Is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Okay. And those property locations -- first of all,
10 there is a broad target area.
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know -- are you familiar with that target area?
14 A. I'm familiar with those streets.
10:44:17 15 Q. Do you know whether that is a bounded area that the
16 contract is referring to?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. So there could be any number -- hundreds, perhaps
19 thousands of property locations and businesses, homes and such
20 in that target area perhaps?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Okay. And the contract also makes reference to another
23 location, which was probably why you were careful in your
24 answer, the first bullet point under results makes reference
25 to a retail development plan for a property located at the

Vol 21 - 91
10:45:02 1 corner of Overton Road and Bonnie View Road.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that why you were careful in your answer?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But it does -- the contract does in fact make reference
7 to Overton Road and Bonnie View Road.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know whether that pertains to Rosemont at
11 Laureland?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Do you know whether it pertains to Rosemont at Scyene?
14 A. I don't know.
10:45:26 15 Q. Isn't it true that it pertains to a project -- a Brian
16 Potashnik location in former council member Leo Chaney's
17 district?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Is that in fact Leo Chaney's district?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. And there is also code enforcement on property located on
22 Hatcher and Interstate 175 for potential purchase by client.
23 Do you know if that is a Brian Potashnik or Southwest
24 Housing development property?
25 A. I don't know.

Vol 21 - 92
10:46:09 1 Q. The bottom line is, as it pertains to this contract that
2 we're looking at, Government's Exhibit 82, and any contract or
3 other discussions that Brian Potashnik had with Farrington &
4 Associates, isn't it fair that you just don't know anything
5 about that?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And as it pertains to Brian Potashnik's business and how
8 he internally accounted for or designated payments or had
9 discussions regarding projects, that's not something you know
10 about. Is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. So how Brian Potashnik decided to conduct his business,
13 account for projects, write checks and otherwise receive
14 professional tax advice and accounting advice, you don't know
10:46:55 15 anything about that, and you can't tell this jury why he did
16 anything that he did?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. But what we do know is that the contract document,
19 Government's Exhibit 82, that Ms. Saldana made reference to
20 does not reference the words Rosemont at Laureland, nor does
21 it talk about Rosemont at Scyene, does it?
22 THE COURT: We have covered that. Move on, please.
23 MR. VITAL: Yes.
24 Thank you, your Honor.
25 Thank you, Ms. Miller.

Vol 21 - 93
10:47:26 1 THE COURT: Mr. Jackson.
2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. JACKSON:
4 Q. Ms. Miller, you were asked a question concerning
5 Mr. Hill's interest in the LKC or the Lancaster-Kiest project.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What interest do you know that Mr. Hill had in the
9 Lancaster-Kiest project?
10 A. I don't know of any.
11 Q. None.
12 If he didn't, are you aware that this jury has heard and
13 seen recordings where Don is talking to a potential developer
14 in the LKC and he constantly used the word "y'all" to show
10:48:08 15 that he's not a part of any project at the LKC.
16 Are you aware of that?
17 A. I'm not aware of that.
18 Q. When you were doing the development -- or helping develop
19 the Mercantile, did you have an interest in that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You had a city interest -- I mean, you wanted to see it
22 done?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Right?
25 Is there anything wrong with that?

Vol 21 - 94
10:48:34 1 A. No.
2 Q. And certainly these minority city council persons have an
3 interest in seeing development in the Southern Sector, do they
4 not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You talked about this Dallas Police and Fire Pension
7 Fund.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell this jury whether or not you were on that board.
11 A. I was not.
12 Q. Mr. Hill was on that board, was he not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are you aware that the Dallas Fire & Pension Fund is
10:49:02 15 investing in local projects?
16 A. I don't know what they invest in.
17 Q. You don't know what they invest in, do you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So if Mr. Hill, as a part of that board, is pushing for
20 them to invest in local -- in local real estate, what's wrong
21 with that?
22 A. The pension board hires financial advisors to make
23 investment decisions.
24 Q. You're not understanding my question.
25 I understand that they may have advisors that may do

Vol 21 - 95
10:49:30 1 further work, but do you know whether or not Mr. Hill is
2 pushing for them to not only invest in Lancaster-Kiest, but
3 other projects locally?
5 A. I don't know what Mr. Hill was pushing for.
6 Q. So you don't know the requirements are, or what the board
7 members are doing for the Dallas Fire and Pension Fund, do
8 you?
9 A. I know what their job duties are.
10 Q. I'm not asking you what their job duty is.
11 I'm asking you what they're doing?
12 A. I don't know what they're doing.
13 Q. Are you aware that they're investing in the local toll
14 road, the LBJ toll road project?
10:50:05 15 A. I'm not aware.
16 Q. Are you aware of whether or not Mr. Hill was the one that
17 pushed them to get that done?
18 A. I'm not aware.
19 Q. Do you know that they are -- that the pension fund
20 invested in the condominiums at Cedars at NorthPark Mall?
22 Q. Are you aware also that Mr. Hill was the one that pushed
23 them to do that local development?
25 Q. Are you aware that developed they --

Vol 21 - 96
10:50:25 1 THE COURT: Mr. Jackson, turn the volume down a
2 little.
3 MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, your Honor. I apologize.
4 I apologize.
5 BY MR. JACKSON:
6 Q. Are you aware that they developed the warehouse at D/FW
7 Airport?
8 A. No, I'm not aware.
9 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Hill is the one that pushed them
10 to do that?
12 Q. So when Mr. Hill tells you to stay out of his dam
13 business, is he maybe telling you that he's on the board doing
14 this job, and now you're trying to interfere?
10:50:49 15 Is that possible?
16 A. I don't know what he meant by that remark.
17 Q. We have heard 30,000 tapes of Mr. Hill talking -- or we
18 have heard wiretap after wiretap, are you aware that this jury
19 has never heard Mr. Hill curse on any tape?
22 Q. You said the first day that you thought that Mr. Hill was
23 affable.
24 Did you not use those words?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 97
10:51:11 1 Q. Certainly on the first day that you testified you didn't
2 say that Mr. Hill cursed at you, did you?
3 A. Excuse me?
4 Q. The first day you testified you didn't say that Mr. Hill
5 cursed at you, did he (sic)?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you have a chance to talk to the prosecution after
8 yesterday?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This opposition to ethics that you were talking about,
11 you indicated that -- well, we heard a little tape of that
12 ethics conversation with Mr. Hill talking, did we not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that the whole meeting, or was there more of that
10:51:43 15 meeting that we haven't heard?
16 A. It was a very long meeting.
17 Q. It was a very along meeting.
18 Mr. Hill wasn't the only person in that meeting that was
19 opposed to the -- to some of the ethics things that you were
20 proposing, is he?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And if we heard that tape we would hear that, would we
23 not?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Hill led the effort -- well, let me ask you.

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10:52:04 1 Mr. Hill is also an attorney, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You're not an attorney?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And Mr. Hill led -- you said led opposition to this -- to
6 some of the ethics proposals that you were proposing, did he
7 not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Obviously there were more people who thought like
10 Mr. Hill than thought like you, because they voted it down,
11 did they not?
12 A. No, we approved many things.
13 Q. That was -- that was later, right? In fact, Mr. Hill was
14 part of -- the person who was working with you at the end
10:52:36 15 shaping some of these ethics rules, was he not?
16 THE COURT: There are two questions there. Ask one.
17 MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry.
18 BY MR. JACKSON:
19 Q. Let me ask the first one.
20 You said that Mr. Hill led -- first of all, you said that
21 Mr. Hill led an opposition to you to the ethics rules that you
22 were trying to propose, right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Initially were you defeated in trying to get some of
25 those ethics rules?

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10:53:01 1 A. It depended on the rule.
2 Q. And then other rules were approved, were they not?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Mr. Hill voted on those, didn't he?
5 A. He voted, yes.
6 Q. How did Mr. Hill find out about that Fantroy contract?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Is it possible that he found out about that Fantroy
9 contract right before he whispered it to you?
10 MS. SALDANA: Your Honor, call for speculation.
12 BY MR. VITAL:
13 Q. But you don't know when he found out, right?
14 A. No.
10:53:31 15 Q. You don't know how he found out, do you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You don't know what part of that contract, or anything
18 else, that he knew about, do you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When he whispered over and told you, Mr. Hill wasn't
21 trying to keep that from you, he told you, didn't he?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now, the fact that you and Mr. Hill disagree even
24 though -- even though you and Mr. Hill agreed, the city
25 attorney -- at least in this --

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10:54:08 1 THE COURT: All right. We have covered this,
2 Counsel.
3 MR. JACKSON: All right.
4 BY MR. JACKSON:
5 Q. Let's talk about these ethics for a minute.
6 Isn't it true, Ms. Miller, that you profited from
7 American Airlines stock when you were on the board?
8 MS. SALDANA: Your Honor, I object to the relevance
9 of this.
10 THE COURT: Sustained. Outside the scope of
11 re-direct also.
12 BY MR. JACKSON:
13 Q. Sometimes people violate some of those ethics rules,
14 don't they?
10:54:46 15 A. (No response.)
16 Q. You understand that this is not a state court, right?
17 THE COURT: Okay. Counsel, I think it's obvious
18 we're not in state court.
19 MR. JACKSON: But they keep bringing --
20 THE COURT: Let's just move along with questions
21 covered by you with me at the bench.
22 MR. JACKSON: I have no further questions.
24 All right. Redirect.
25 MS. SALDANA: Yes, your Honor.

Vol 21 - 101
10:55:21 1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. SALDANA:
3 Q. Government's Exhibit 82, you were asked some questions
4 about that.
5 MS. SALDANA: If you could put it up just quickly.
6 Just the first page, please.
7 Does the Elmo have to go off?
8 THE COURT: I think that's me.
9 BY MS. SALDANA:
10 Q. Ms. Miller, regardless of whether the words Laureland or
11 Scyene appear on the contract that is attached to this fax,
12 would it have been important to you to know that Don Hill's
13 mistress was negotiating a contract with Southwest Housing who
14 had at least three projects up before the city council within
10:56:03 15 a week of the date on this document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would that have affected your vote?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. With respect to the task force, Government's Exhibit
20 10001, the task force report, you were asked about tax
21 credits.
22 What was the purpose of that task force? Was it tax
23 credits?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What was it?

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10:56:38 1 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, that's been asked and
2 answered.
4 A. The purpose of the task force was to try to fix the
5 Dallas Housing Department.
6 BY MS. SALDANA:
7 Q. Let me hand you the exhibit where it talks about the
8 recommended final actions of the task force in the report.
9 It summarizes the recommended actions of that task force,
10 does it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is there a single item there that does not pertain --
13 that pertains to tax credit housing?
14 A. No.
10:57:18 15 Q. Are all of those recommendations related to affordable
16 housing and housing in general?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why did you not file an ethics complaint after this
19 matter with Mr. Fantroy?
20 A. I thought so long as what was happening was in the public
21 domain, that that was sufficient.
22 Q. For citizens to make their own, I guess, decisions on
23 that?
24 MR. VITAL: Objection, your Honor, that's a leading
25 question.

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10:57:52 1 THE COURT: That's sustained.
2 BY MS. SALDANA:
3 Q. What was your hope in having it in the public domain?
4 A. My hope was that --
5 MR. GREENE: I'm just going to object to relevancy.
7 A. My hope was that the behavior would stop.
8 BY MS. SALDANA:
9 Q. There was sufficient media coverage on that matter,
10 wasn't there?
11 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, that's another leading
12 question.
14 BY MS. SALDANA:
10:58:20 15 Q. Was there substantial media coverage?
16 MR. JACKSON: Relevance.
18 A. I don't know what substantial means.
19 BY MS. SALDANA:
20 Q. There was some?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. With respect to the questions you got regarding the --
23 that Dallas Morning News article that was shown to you, and
24 indications there that this was some advice from the city
25 attorney on the matter, do you know for a fact what facts the

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10:58:49 1 city attorney had before her, if indeed she made some
2 recommendation on that matter?
3 MR. HASKEL: Objection, your Honor, to the extent it
4 calls for a communication to the city attorney.
5 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. The objection is
6 noted and overruled. You may answer.
7 A. May I ask you a question about your question?
8 BY MS. SALDANA:
9 Q. Sure.
10 A. When you say "that matter," could you tell me what that
11 means?
12 Q. Yes. Do you know upon which facts the city attorney made
13 any recommendation on the Fantroy contracts with Mr. Fisher,
14 if indeed that happened?
10:59:28 15 MR. HASKEL: Objection, privilege.
17 A. I know what my answer is. I just don't know if --
18 because I'm not a lawyer, if I'm allowed to give it because of
19 a conversation about attorney-client privilege.
20 BY MS. SALDANA:
21 Q. Let me rephrase it.
22 Do you know all the facts that the city attorney made or
23 may not have had had before her when, if indeed she did, make
24 any recommendation on the Fantroy-Fisher contract?
25 MR. HASKEL: Objection, privileged.

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11:00:06 1 THE COURT: That's overruled.
2 A. There were different.
3 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, I just object to
4 speculation and relevance.
5 THE COURT: I believe that's what counsel was trying
6 to establish.
7 I'm going to ask the witness a question.
8 Do you know what facts the city attorney did or did not
9 consider in connection with any opinion that she rendered?
10 That's what I believe counsel -- are you objecting to
11 that?
12 MR. GREENE: To your question, your Honor?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. GREENE: No.
11:00:34 15 THE COURT: Answer that question.
16 A. No.
17 BY MS. SALDANA:
18 Q. When defense counsel asked you if you had visited with
19 the prosecution, have I ever told you how to answer a
20 question, Ms. Miller?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Has any member of the prosecution team told you how to
23 answer a question?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Has any agent from the FBI told you how to testify today?

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11:00:55 1 A. No.
2 Q. What is the one thing each one of us has repeatedly told
3 you when you came and presented your testimony to this jury?
4 A. To tell the truth.
5 MS. SALDANA: Pass the witness, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Ms. Miller. You
7 may step down. You may be excused. Thank you so much.
8 You may call your next witness.
9 MR. MEACHAM: Kathy Nealy.
11 THE COURT: Has this witness been offered immunity?
12 MR. JACKSON: She has an attorney.
13 I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: Does this witness have immunity?
11:02:01 15 MR. MEACHAM: She has not been charged with
16 anything.
17 THE COURT: I think the answer to my question is she
18 does not have immunity.
19 MR. MEACHAM: Why type of immunity are you asking
20 about?
21 THE COURT: Whatever type you have given her.
22 Has the government given the witness an agreement of
23 immunity from prosecution?
24 MR. MEACHAM: I have told the witness myself she is
25 not going to be charged with any offense related to her

Vol 21 - 107
11:02:29 1 testimony or conduct.
2 THE COURT: Is that in writing?
3 MR. MEACHAM: What I said to her is not in writing.
4 I don't know what was told to her before, and I have never
5 visited with Mr. Ravkind about this.
6 THE COURT: Mr. who?
7 MR. MEACHAM: Ravkind initially represented her
8 years ago.
9 THE COURT: What I'm asking is if I have to give the
10 witness Fifth Amendment warnings during her testimony?
11 MR. MEACHAM: No, your Honor. She's not going to be
12 charged. I'm going to bring that out in her testimony.
13 THE COURT: Does she have counsel here in the room?
14 MR. MEACHAM: Not that I'm aware of.
11:02:58 15 THE COURT: So you're telling the Court that she is
16 not going to be prosecuted so that the Court does not have to
17 concern itself with giving any Fifth Amendment warnings to the
18 witness?
19 MR. MEACHAM: That's correct.
20 THE COURT: Except for perjury.
21 MR. MEACHAM: Absolutely. I don't know if the
22 defense is going to inquire into some unknown line of conduct
23 with her, but --
24 THE COURT: Well, since I don't have an immunity
25 agreement, it's difficult for me to know the extent of what

Vol 21 - 108
11:03:24 1 you have agreed is not prosecutable, which is going to make it
2 difficult for me to know when I have to give her a Fifth
3 Amendment warning, because I won't know if anything that the
4 defense asks her about that might be subject to prosecution is
5 covered by an agreement of immunity.
6 MR. MEACHAM: I don't know if they have anything.
7 MR. VITAL: I wonder perhaps if outside the jury's
8 presence we can examine her about the extent of the
9 communications she's had concerning --
10 THE COURT: No.
11 MS. SALDANA: Judge, just one point. All of that,
12 the extent and scope of the verbal agreement is going to be a
13 matter of record.
14 THE COURT: That's why I'm not going to allow it to
11:03:58 15 be done outside the presence of the jury.
16 It may be that later there is a reason to do it, and once
17 it's developed, if any of the defense attorneys are going to
18 ask questions that you feel might expose the witness to
19 criminal liability that you do not know is encompassed by the
20 agreement, then I need to be alerted to it, because I would
21 have no way of knowing that in advance.
22 I may not understand the relationship between something
23 that you are developing, and what they have given her immunity
24 on.
25 So you're going to have to alert me to that, and I'll

Vol 21 - 109
11:04:32 1 make a judgment as to whether I need to give her any warnings.
3 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Nealy, I'm sorry to keep
4 you. Come on up, please, ma'am.
5 If you would stand here in front of the court reporter.
6 Would you please raise your right hand.
7 State your name for the record, and spell your last name.
8 THE WITNESS: Kathy Nealy. K-A-T-H-Y,
9 N-E-A-L-Y.
10 (Witness sworn by the Court at 11:05 AM.)
11 THE COURT: Take a seat here in front of me, and
12 please speak into the microphone.
13 KATHY NEALY, (Sworn)
14 was called as a witness by the government, having been first
11:05:21 15 duly sworn, testified as follows:
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. MEACHAM:
18 Q. Good morning, Ms. Nealy.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Tell the jury what you do for a living.
21 A. I'm a consultant. I started out doing political
22 consulting, but that has fizzled the past 12 or so years.
23 It's expanded going to doing zoning.
24 I also did -- I started out in 1984.
25 Q. Slow down just a little bit. We're going to go through

Vol 21 - 110
11:05:52 1 some of those things.
2 How long have you lived in Dallas?
3 A. (No response.)
4 Q. Don't give me a year. Just approximately.
5 A. Since I was 12 years old.
6 Q. Most of that time you lived in District 5. Is that
7 correct?
8 A. In 1978 I moved to Oak Cliff, and I lived in District 5
9 until three years ago.
10 Q. Okay. I want to ask you how you got interested in
11 politics, and at what point in your life was that?
12 A. As a kid growing up in Hamilton Park my mother was
13 involved -- very actively involved in the community.
14 After the first campaign -- I was involved with Mike
11:06:32 15 McKool.
16 Then when I moved to Oak Cliff I started out with
17 Commissioner Price when he ran for the constable, and also was
18 involved back in Hamilton Park when Jimmy Carter ran for
19 president.
20 Q. If you would, just name some of the other campaigns you
21 have worked for various state and federal elections through
22 the years?
23 A. I started out doing presidential with Vice President
24 Mondale in 1992. Actually 1991 was the announcement of Vice
25 President Clinton (sic), and traveled with the Clinton

Vol 21 - 111
11:07:08 1 administration for -- I did over 35 international trips around
2 the world.
3 My local campaigns range from Senator Lloyd Benson in
4 1982.
5 My first city council election was 1983 for Forest
6 Taylor.
7 Ron Kirk running for the first -- the first black mayor.
8 Q. When you say Ron Kirk was the first black mayor, that was
9 here in Dallas. Is that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Did he serve -- he served in fact before Laura Miller.
12 Is that right?
14 Q. In addition to the political work you have talked about,
11:07:46 15 you have also begun doing zoning consultings and things of
16 that nature?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who are some of the clients -- I would say big name
19 clients you have had for the past several years?
20 A. Hillwood Development is a client of mine, and I have had
21 them since 1997 to present.
22 Q. Tell the jury, if you would, what the Hillwood
23 Development Company is most notably known for developing
24 recently in Dallas?
25 A. The American Airlines Center, as well as Victory Park.

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11:08:15 1 Q. Who are some of your other clients?
2 A. American Airlines is still a client of mine.
3 I do public affairs, local and state government with
4 them.
5 Also Wal-Mart for the past right at five years.
6 THE COURT: If you get too close to it the sound is
7 a little muffled. If you get too far away, we can't hear you.
8 So don't -- I feel like you're stretching to reach it.
9 Why don't you sit back and move it toward, and then you
10 will be more controllable. Just slide it over to you.
11 Okay. Are you okay?
12 BY MR. MEACHAM:
13 Q. Let's test it out, Ms. Nealy. How does that sound?
14 A. Okay.
11:09:11 15 Q. In addition to all the political work and clients that
16 you have talked to us about, you have done some work
17 consulting in various affordable tax credit deals. Is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Before we get into that, I want to talk to you about some
21 of the defendants in the courtroom today.
22 I think you probably know all of them.
23 Let's start with Mr. Hill back here to my right.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. How do you know him?

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11:09:34 1 A. Actually I have known Don Hill ever since he moved to
2 Dallas back in the '80s. We were all involved in the
3 political community. We also lived in the same community.
4 Q. Okay. Have you worked with him on his campaigns for
5 either city council or for mayor?
6 A. I worked with him when he first ran for city council.
7 Q. Sitting next to him is his wife, Shelia Farrington-Hill.
8 Do you know her?
9 A. Mid '90s.
10 Q. Going around the table, the next defendant over here
11 against the wall is Mr. D'Angelo Lee.
12 Do you know him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How do you know him?
11:10:12 15 A. When he served on the planning commission.
16 Q. When he served on the planning commission, what district
17 was that for?
18 A. District 5.
19 Q. Do you recall prior to him coming on as commissioner how
20 long a vacancy existed in District 5 for that particular
21 position?
22 A. Over two years. Right at two years.
23 Q. Long time with nobody there serving?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How important --

Vol 21 - 114
11:10:37 1 A. Could have been a little more.
2 Q. But you remember a lengthy period of time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How important is that particular position to the
5 residents of District 5?
6 A. Oh, extremely important. The planning commission -- can
7 I keep talking?
8 Q. Yes, ma'am.
9 A. The planning commission, as far as voice of commissioners
10 as far as the City of Dallas you have three real critical
11 boards. Outside of the D/FW board you also have the planning
12 commission, as well as the park and recreation board.
13 The planning commissioner is critical because that's land
14 use.
11:11:16 15 Q. Land use was something you were doing during this
16 vacancy. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So when you had an issue for one of your clients before
19 the City Plan Commission with nobody there from District 5,
20 how did it work?
21 A. Carol Brandon actually was the person who Councilman Hill
22 asked to many times to look over, oversee, make
23 recommendations as far as moving things for approval in his
24 district.
25 Q. She was Mr. Fantroy's appointee, correct?

Vol 21 - 115
11:11:52 1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. From District 8?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. During this gap where there is nobody serving in that
5 role, what did you say to Don Hill about that?
6 A. Oh, I asked him on several occasions when he was going to
7 appoint somebody for the vacancy. And what things Claude
8 Watson, who was very active in the community, he retired from
9 Social Security, was one of the people I asked him about. He
10 had looked at him, but decided not to for some reason.
11 Then he said that he had this guy, you know, D'Angelo Lee
12 who would be good, and he was going to be serving.
13 Q. Did you know D'Angelo Lee at that point?
14 A. No.
11:12:30 15 Q. How long did Mr. Hill tell you -- or what were the
16 issues, if any, with regard to the timing of Mr. Lee coming on
17 the City Plan Commission?
18 A. He had some personal things he had to deal with.
19 Q. So Mr. Hill is telling you that he's waiting for Mr. Lee
20 to get there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How long did that waiting period last, if you recall?
23 A. Probably about six months. Somewhere along there.
24 Q. Continuing next we have got Darren Reagan against the
25 wall.

Vol 21 - 116
11:12:56 1 You know him. Is that correct?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. How long have you known Mr. Reagan?
4 A. I have known Darren, '80s.
5 Q. Had regular contact with him through the years?
6 A. Off and on.
7 Q. At some point did you work with him on one of his -- on
8 any campaign he may have --
9 A. He ran against Sandra Crenshaw, and there was a runoff,
10 and I helped him with his campaign during that time.
11 Q. That was a race for Dallas City Council. Is that
12 correct?
14 Q. Finally sitting next to him is Mr. Robertson. I believe
11:13:31 15 you know him as well. Is that correct?
16 A. From childhood.
17 Q. Tell the jury, so they will know, how you know him from
18 childhood.
19 A. From growing up -- actually my daughter growing up in
20 Hamilton Park.
21 Q. So he was near your daughter's age from what you recall?
22 A. Somewhere along there.
23 Q. When you are hired -- let's talk about an affordable tax
24 credit deal, because that's mostly developments that are at
25 issue.

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11:14:04 1 When you're hired on one of those -- on one of those to
2 work zoning, or to be a political consultant, what are the
3 steps that you take? What's the first thing you do? Just, if
4 you would, tell us a little bit about the process.
5 A. The first thing that you do is to -- you go schedule an
6 appointment -- you schedule an appointment to go and talk to
7 the council person of that particular district.
8 Q. You know, let me interrupt you, because I wanted to ask
9 you two more followup questions.
10 You rushed through a little bit of the work that you did
11 for Clinton -- for the Clintons, but if you would, tell us a
12 little more detail about what you did as an advance team
13 member.
14 A. As an advance person being the lead we go in and -- we
11:14:49 15 plan the trip from the time that the principal arrives until
16 he leaves. So whether it's -- so we can make sure that all
17 the logistics are taken care of, we figure out what type of
18 events we are going to have, we plan the program, develop a
19 program format.
20 Brief -- when back at the White House we put together a
21 briefing book with all the various information stating who
22 they were going to meet with, what the purpose of the meeting
23 was. So we plan the trip from the beginning to the end.
24 Q. These advance team meetings that you are talking about,
25 these trips, they're on behalf of the Clintons going outside

Vol 21 - 118
11:15:28 1 the United States. Is that correct?
2 A. On behalf of the White House.
3 Q. How many different countries did you work on this advance
4 team type of work for the Clinton while President Clinton was
5 in office?
6 A. About 35 international trips.
7 Q. You also have some sort of fairly close relationship with
8 the King family. Is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Tell the jury, if you would, about that.
11 A. I started in the early '80s. I was also an advisor to
12 Ms. King and the King family.
13 Martin, when he decided to run for county commissioner I
14 started advising him, and still am an advisor today.
11:16:08 15 Annually we do a youth seminar here in Dallas, and that's
16 one of my give-backs to the community.
17 Q. Representatives from the King family come to that every
18 year?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. What, if anything, did you do in the process of making
21 Martin Luther King a national holiday?
22 A. I actually did the first national holiday. So I was with
23 Ms. King for the activities in Washington D.C., as well as in
24 Atlanta.
25 Q. Now, let's go into these tax credit deals.

Vol 21 - 119
11:16:40 1 What's one of the first things you do when you are hired
2 to work as a consultant for one of those?
3 A. We schedule an appointment with the council person in
4 that particular district.
5 We go and -- basically you want to find out if they are
6 interested in having this particular type of project in their
7 district.
8 Q. Why is that the first step, and why is that one of the
9 most important steps?
10 A. It's one of the most important steps, because if the
11 council person doesn't want it in their district, then there
12 is no need proceeding forward.
13 Q. Have a lot of say so in what gets built in their
14 district?
11:17:17 15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. In your opinion that's the way it should be, correct?
17 A. Yes. Sure.
18 Q. In fact, the City of Dallas at some point in the past
19 went to a 14-1 single-member district. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you work on that?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. In the political realm and the election and things that
24 went on there?
25 A. I was part of that, yes.

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11:17:34 1 Q. Now, I want to take you back in time to 2002 in a -- in a
2 development, I believe Rosemont at Pemberton Hill, Southwest
3 Housing development that was going on, I believe in District 5
4 at the time.
5 Do you recall how you got involved in that?
6 A. Rosemont at Pemberton Hill.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Is that the one on Loop 12?
9 Q. I believe it is. It could be Rosemont at Southern Oaks
10 during that time frame.
11 A. But Pemberton Hill, I think is Loop 12.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Because I generally know them by the street.
14 MR. MEACHAM: Okay. If we could pull up
11:18:20 15 Government's Exhibit 1890.
16 BY MR. MEACHAM:
17 Q. Just look at the top part of -- top part of the
18 handwritten notes.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. It actually says Southwest Housing, Loop 12?
22 Q. There was -- do you recognize what these notes are from?
23 A. These notes, I believe, are for the meeting that we had
24 with Reverand H.J. Johnson.
25 Q. Okay.

Vol 21 - 121
11:18:43 1 A. And I worked with Willie Cothrum at Master Plan, and he
2 asked me to arrange a meeting. So this is the meeting that we
3 attended, and these are notes from that meeting.
4 Q. That was my initial question.
5 How was it that you got involved? Were you working
6 directly with Southwest Housing, or were you sort of
7 subcontracted by another entity?
8 A. Subcontracted by another entity.
9 Q. That's Master Plan?
11 Q. There is a list of names at the top of the document.
12 Do you recall those people being present at this meeting?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was discussed generally?
11:19:21 15 A. This particular project was a drug-infested project, and
16 by Southwest Housing coming in, the project that they were
17 going to replace that with was very welcome into the
18 community, because it was -- it was just really a bad
19 apartment complex.
20 Q. Okay. And in addition to -- let me ask it this way.
21 What did Master Plan or Mr. Cothrum, what did they bring
22 you in to do?
23 A. To schedule the meeting. And we also were going to do a
24 community meeting.
25 Q. When you say "schedule the meeting," this particular

Vol 21 - 122
11:20:08 1 meeting?
3 Q. Why was it important?
4 A. Why was this meeting important?
5 Because Reverend Johnson lived -- the church was right
6 down from the location where the apartment complex was going
7 to be.
8 Q. How important can community support be for these types of
9 projects?
10 A. It's critical.
11 Q. In addition, you were going to also do a community
12 meeting?
14 Q. Did you do that as well?
11:20:32 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In relation to this meeting that we're talking about, do
17 you recall a point in time where money was discussed?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. How did you feel about that when it happened?
20 A. Not -- that was the first one I had ever heard of.
21 Q. It surprised you?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. Both that money was mentioned at all?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What about the amount of the money?

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11:20:57 1 A. That was huge.
2 Q. Who was doing the talking when money was brought up?
3 A. The money that was brought up, that was Potashnik.
4 Q. Do you remember if it was Brian or Jack Potashnik?
5 A. Brian.
6 MR. MEACHAM: Let's look on page 2.
7 Let's look at the bottom half.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Q. We talk about -- there are some figures written down.
10 Are those figures consistent with your memory of what
11 happened on that day?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who did Brian Potashnik agree or offer to pay $50,000 to,
14 if you know?
11:21:34 15 A. Reverand Johnson. The one thing that they were looking
16 at is the -- the figure that came up was like huge, because I
17 never heard of that before.
18 And then later on they started talking about some
19 additional services that would be provided there at the
20 apartment complex.
21 Q. Did you ever have a direct employee-employer relationship
22 with Southwest Housing?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Any work that you would have done on any of their
25 projects or any of their development would have come through?

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11:22:10 1 A. Master Plan.
2 Q. I want to move forward -- do you recall the timing of
3 this? I'm not sure if we have a date on this document or not,
4 but do you recall about when this was?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. At some point in time you were contacted by an
7 entity Provident Realty Advisors, I believe.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Whose business is that?
10 A. Leon Backes.
11 Q. What were you contacted -- or contracted to do for
12 Provident Realty Advisors?
13 A. They were going to do a tax credit project.
14 Q. Where was that particular project located, if you
11:22:55 15 recall?
16 A. Off of Wheatland on the other side of the hospital.
17 Q. Okay. When you say "the hospital"?
18 A. Methodist Hospital.
19 Q. Down south on 20 or close to it?
20 A. It's actually off of 67 at Wheatland.
21 Q. Thank you for correcting me.
22 Again, you are hired on this development. Whose district
23 is that in?
24 A. That one was in -- that was a little confusion, because
25 at first we thought it was in Don Hill's district, but when we

Vol 21 - 125
11:23:28 1 went to meet with him we found out that it was in Fantroy's
2 district.
3 Q. When you say "we" went to meet with Mr. Hill, who were
4 you talking about?
5 A. Very seldom was I in meetings by myself. So Matt
6 Harris -- I want to say Stewart, the lawyer, Forest Smith.
7 Q. Was Mr. Backes there, if you recall?
8 A. I think he was, yes.
9 Q. You didn't mention a name that we have heard a lot about
10 in this case. Bill Fisher.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Why is that? Why didn't you mention him?
13 A. When I first was hired by Provident Realty Bill Fisher
14 was not working for them.
11:24:14 15 Q. Had you ever met Bill Fisher before that point in time
16 when you got hired by Provident Realty Advisors?
17 A. I had met Bill Fisher before.
18 Q. But he wasn't working for the company then?
19 A. No.
20 Q. At some point did he come on board with the company after
21 you were hired by them?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. Do you recall what year this would be, spring of what
24 year?
25 A. 2003? Yes.

Vol 21 - 126
11:24:41 1 Q. I think 2003 sounds about right.
2 When you went to meet with Mr. Hill and found out this
3 project wasn't in his district, where did you go next?
4 A. To meet with Councilman Fantroy.
5 Q. How was that meeting?
6 A. It was good.
7 Q. Tell the jury about that first meeting. Would there be
8 plans, designs, schematics? What would be talked about in
9 that initial meeting with the councilman?
10 A. When you first go into a meeting you talk about the
11 overall project, where it's located. If you have site plan,
12 and they usually have a little drawing of how the building is
13 going to be designed, at least a sketch part of that.
14 Then also you have -- we talked about the location. One
11:25:31 15 of the concerns that initially we knew that we were going to
16 have to deal with at that particular site was the hospital.
17 So you always have to deal with your neighbors and community
18 at large. There was some other apartment complexes there.
19 And this particular project -- and dealing with tax
20 credits. We also had heard from state Senator West that --
21 because he thought that they looked like military barracks.
22 So he wanted to make sure that we did not do the same type of
23 architectural design.
24 Q. So when you have a tax credit project you have got to
25 have the support of the council person, correct?

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11:26:19 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But in addition to that state officials have some role in
3 the process?
5 Q. Both state senator and state representative?
6 A. Absolutely. We also met with state representative Yvonne
7 Davis.
8 Q. All of these public officials, the council person, the
9 state representative and the state senator provide input on
10 what they want to see in their location?
11 A. Oh, sure.
12 Q. Developers are receptive to that?
13 A. Sure.
14 MR. VITAL: Object to the leading question.
11:26:47 15 THE COURT: Sustained. Don't lead the witness.
16 BY MR. MEACHAM:
17 Q. How receptive are developers to those requests from
18 public officials?
19 A. Very. That's the purpose of the meeting.
20 Q. So after the initial phase and the initial meetings have
21 occurred and preliminary support is received, what happens
22 next?
23 A. It varies. A lot of times you go to the planning
24 commission, because a lot has to do with the land use, the
25 previous land use, what it is that you are desiring to do.

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11:27:26 1 Q. How common is it for these tax credit developments to
2 need a zoning change?
3 A. Sometimes they need a zoning change.
4 Q. All right. So work with -- let me ask it this way.
5 If no zoning is needed what, if any, relationship would
6 you have with City Plan Commission on the project?
7 A. There is going to be some, but it becomes more
8 straightforward as opposed to going into in-depth, whether
9 they are talking about deed restrictions. So a lot of it has
10 to do with where it's located, and what you're going to build
11 on this particular site.
12 Because -- say, for example, if it's multi-family and
13 generally these sites also had a clubhouse, so -- and also
14 after-school programs. So in doing that you might have to
11:28:33 15 request -- especially the way that it was previously, that
16 particular land was previously zoned.
17 Does that make sense?
18 Q. It does.
19 When Bill Fisher came on board with Provident Realty
20 Advisors did the name of the company change, or was there a
21 new entity created?
22 A. Huh?
23 Q. Do you recall if the name of the entity Provident Realty
24 Advisors was changed after Bill Fisher came on board?
25 A. It was. It was a little later, but it was changed.

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11:29:01 1 Q. Do you know what the new name of the entity was, or what
2 the new organization was called?
3 A. Provident Odyssey.
4 Q. Ultimately -- not ultimately.
5 Was a contract for services presented to you by Provident
6 Odyssey for your work on these tax credit deals?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. MEACHAM: Let's pull up Government's Exhibit
9 1996.
10 BY MR. MEACHAM:
11 Q. Is this a document that you prepare and you use?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It sets out your agreement with this entity. Is that
14 correct?
11:29:37 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The entity is Provident Odyssey Partners LP?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In Article 2 it sets out what you're going to do. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It lists out as a number of things we have been talking
22 about, correct, in paragraph A-1?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then it also lists out the projects that you are going to
25 be working on. Is that correct?

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11:30:20 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'll name them.
3 UT Southwestern, senior housing?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Lusardi, Laureland and Simpson Stuart.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Four project?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. You're going to take direction from Bill Fisher?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Let's look over on page 2 at remuneration and invoicing.
12 How much are you going to get paid for your work on
13 Provident Odyssey on these four projects?
14 A. $175 an hour. Then there was a success fee.
11:30:54 15 Q. Tell the jury what a success fee is.
16 A. If at the end of the day the project is successful, then
17 it's kind of like a bonus.
18 Q. The date of this contract -- I got a little bit ahead of
19 myself. But if we go to the last page, page 3, this
20 particular copy is not signed by you, but this is a contract
21 under with which you worked. Is that correct?
23 Q. It's signed and dated by whom?
24 A. Bill Fisher.
25 Q. Dated what date?

Vol 21 - 131
11:31:30 1 A. 3-2-04.
2 Q. So during 2003 at least this contract wasn't in effect?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. How often have you seen success fees prior to this
5 contract?
6 A. Bill Fisher was -- when Bill Fisher came on, that was the
7 first one.
8 Q. So the first one with the success fee was 2004?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So no success fee on 2003?
12 Q. On the project you were originally hired on by Provident
13 Realty?
14 A. That was strictly an hourly.
11:31:58 15 Q. That project in 2003, we have heard a lot about Rose
16 Court at Thorntree.
17 Do you recognize that name?
18 A. Rose Court at Thorntree, that's the one off Wheatland.
19 Q. Down by Methodist Hospital?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The one you met with Mr. Fantroy and the other public
22 officials?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What type of support did you have from Mr. Fantroy for
25 this project in his district early on?

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11:32:24 1 A. Oh, we had support.
2 Q. With that support, what did you do to move the project
3 forward with Provident Realty Advisors?
4 A. (No response.)
5 Q. What steps were they taking to bring this project to
6 reality?
7 A. We are meeting with the community. Their architects are
8 working. They are also meeting, I'm going to say, with the
9 school district. Meetings with the hospital. General
10 community meeting, plus meetings going back and forth.
11 With the tax credit there are meetings that take place
12 with the state, as well as meetings that take place actually,
13 also getting letters of support from the state officials, or
14 meeting with them about their concerns.
11:33:20 15 Q. Okay. How often would you typically meet in general --
16 I'm obviously focused on the Rose Court at Thorntree project,
17 but how often would you generally meet with the council member
18 from that district from the first meeting until it passed
19 everything that was needed at council?
20 A. Many times because we're also doing updates.
21 Q. As you are updating Mr. Fantroy on this project --
22 THE COURT: Speak up a little bit, please, Counsel,
23 into the mic. Bring the mic up. I know you are tall.
24 MR. MEACHAM: Thank you, your Honor.
25 BY MR. MEACHAM:

Vol 21 - 133
11:33:49 1 Q. As you are updating Mr. Fantroy on the development how
2 does his support remain for the project?
3 A. You mean during the process?
4 Q. No. Just the first preliminary meetings. Really --
5 we'll get to it in a minute, but at some point he had
6 concerns, correct?
7 A. But at first he was fine.
8 Q. During the process when the project is fine, do you
9 recall a specific meeting with him where he asked you to stay
10 later where it was just you and him talking?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What happened after everybody else left the room?
13 A. We stayed. When I stayed after that meeting he indicated
14 that he would like to do some of those security contracts.
11:34:33 15 Q. So Mr. Fantroy tells you he wants security contracts from
16 these developers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You know what he's doing, correct?
20 Q. What is Mr. Fantroy doing when he asks you for the work
21 on those contracts?
23 MR. VITAL: Object, your Honor, foundation.
24 THE COURT: Establish how the witness knows.
25 BY MR. MEACHAM:

Vol 21 - 134
11:34:54 1 Q. Let me just retrack that and try again.
2 Tell me again what he asked for.
3 A. He asked for work for the security company.
4 Q. Did Mr. Fantroy have a security company?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. To your knowledge, during this time frame 2003, who was
7 running that security company?
8 A. At that point he was.
9 Q. So he's asked you for work on the projects that are going
10 to be coming before him for a vote on the city council?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. And what did you do with that request?
13 A. When he left out of the meeting I was asked what did he
14 say and I said, oh, it was something else.
11:35:41 15 Q. The person that asked you that was whom?
16 A. Bill Fisher.
17 Q. He had been in the meeting with you prior about the
18 project?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you refused at that point to tell Mr. Fisher what
21 James Fantroy told you?
22 MR. VITAL: Object to leading.
23 THE COURT: Yes. Don't lead the witness.
24 BY MR. MEACHAM:
25 Q. Let me ask it this way.

Vol 21 - 135
11:36:03 1 What did you tell Mr. Fisher on that occasion, on the day
2 that Mr. Fantroy made the request, what did you tell
3 Mr. Fisher about the request for work that Mr. Fantroy made?
4 MR. VITAL: Objection, hearsay, out of court
5 statement.
6 THE COURT: Response.
7 MR. MEACHAM: No response.
9 BY MR. MEACHAM:
10 Q. What information did you provide to Bill Fisher on that
11 day about any contracting work for Mr. Fantroy?
12 A. None.
13 MR. VITAL: Objection, hearsay.
14 THE COURT: Out-of-court statement. What's the
11:36:36 15 hearsay exception?
16 MR. MEACHAM: To the witness' own statement, your
17 Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. MEACHAM: My response is hearsay is defined as
20 an out-of-court statement made by --
21 THE COURT: Any person, including a witness
22 testifying live at trial.
23 Do you have an exception you are offering to the Court?
24 MR. MEACHAM: No, your Honor.

Vol 21 - 136
11:37:05 1 BY MR. MEACHAM:
2 Q. I want to move forward in time to a point where
3 Mr. Fantroy had concerns about the project.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Do you recall that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Based upon time, was that before or after the meeting
8 that you just told us about?
9 A. After.
10 Q. What was the nature of Mr. Fantroy's concerns about the
11 project?
12 A. The height.
13 Q. What was the problem with the height of the project?
14 A. He was telling us there was too many stories.
11:37:39 15 MR. VITAL: Objection, hearsay.
17 (No response.)
18 THE COURT: Is it offered for the truth?
19 MR. MEACHAM: It's not offered for the truth of the
20 matter asserted, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: What is the purpose of the offer?
22 MR. MEACHAM: To show that Mr. Fantroy showed some
23 opposition to the project that put him into --
24 THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
25 MR. VITAL: Well, my objection just for the record

Vol 21 - 137
11:38:02 1 would be relevance. He's an unindicted --
2 THE COURT: That wasn't the objection. If you're
3 making a relevance objection now --
4 MR. VITAL: Well, I have a new objection, Judge,
5 relevance. He's not a charged defendant in this case.
6 THE COURT: That's true. But the objection is
7 overruled.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Q. What was the nature of the opposition -- let me ask it
10 this way.
11 What did Mr. Fantroy tell you was the nature of his
12 opposition to the project at this point, months into the
13 process?
14 A. Height.
11:38:29 15 Q. What was the issue with height on the project, if you
16 recall?
17 A. Three story -- the site plan -- the architecture
18 structure that we presented was three stories, and he had
19 opposition to that.
20 Q. Had that been a change in the project from two story to
21 three story that you just sort of sprang on Mr. Fantroy?
22 A. Prior to that we didn't know that there was a problem.
23 Q. That's a better way of asking the question?
24 How high was the project supposed to be from the very
25 first time you met with him?

Vol 21 - 138
11:39:05 1 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, may I just have a running
2 objection on relevance to this line of questioning?
3 THE COURT: You may. Overruled.
4 BY MR. MEACHAM:
5 Q. How high was the project when it started out?
6 A. Three stories.
7 Q. But months later --
8 A. If I could?
9 Q. Yes.
10 Q. There was three stories. It wasn't just all three story.
11 There was three story, two story, one story. But the
12 height -- the highest was a three story.
13 Q. Okay. As this process moved on Mr. Fantroy had an issue
14 with that?
11:39:37 15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. You recall the date of this being sometime -- when do you
17 recall this occurred?
18 A. It was in the summer. July, August.
19 Q. Late July.
20 A. Last July. Because it was right before going back into
21 session in August.
22 Q. How close in time was this opposition to a necessary vote
23 coming up on the Rose Court at Thorntree property?
24 A. Summer.
25 Q. Once this opposition was raised what did Bill Fisher tell

Vol 21 - 139
11:40:15 1 you about security contracts with JLS Security (sic)?
2 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I object to hearsay.
4 BY MR. MEACHAM:
5 Q. True or not, what did Bill Fisher say at this meeting
6 about JLS Security (sic)?
7 THE COURT: Excuse me.
8 MR. JACKSON: The response?
9 THE COURT: I think the response is it's not being
10 offered for the truth of the matter asserted.
11 MR. MEACHAM: That's correct.
12 MR. VITAL: Running objection on relevancy.
13 THE COURT: Yes. Overruled.
14 BY MR. MEACHAM:
11:40:56 15 Q. Let me ask one other question before we go back to that.
16 As these projects were moving through the process, at
17 some point are security -- at what point are security
18 companies hired to provide services at the locations?
19 A. Sometime during demolition.
20 Q. Why is that?
21 A. Because they have equipment out there.
22 Q. The equipment needs to be guarded. Is that correct?
23 A. Secured, yes.
24 Q. What discussions did you have with Bill Fisher about
25 possible security companies that could be used at these

Vol 21 - 140
11:41:31 1 locations?
2 A. There was a point in time when the question was raised
3 did I know of any security companies, and I said that I only
4 know of two securities companies. One was with Mr. Lyle, and
5 his wasn't in service at that point, and the other one was J&L
6 Security.
7 Q. Being Mr. Fantroy's security company?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you recommended to Mr. Fisher that Mr. Fantroy's
10 security company be used?
11 A. When we had that discussion, that was the company that I
12 stated.
13 Q. So at this meeting when opposition arose, what did Bill
14 Fisher tell you, true or not, about Fantroy security
11:42:13 15 contracts?
16 A. He made the statement maybe I should have given him a
17 contract.
18 Q. You recall this date near the end of July 2003?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MEACHAM: I offer into evidence BP-270, 271 and
21 272.
22 THE COURT: Any objection to BP-270, 271 and 272?
23 MR. VITAL: Object to relevance.
24 THE COURT: Overruled. Those are admitted.
25 MR. MEACHAM: If we could pull up BP-270 -- or I

Vol 21 - 141
11:42:58 1 can use the Elmo.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Can you read that, Ms. Nealy?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It says on the top of it what?
6 A. J&L Security & Investigations Company.
7 Q. The date in the fax header?
8 A. (No response.)
9 Q. Can you read that date? August 24, 2003?
10 A. August 24, 2003.
11 Q. It's a contract between JLS Security Investigations
12 Company, and down at the bottom signed by -- do you recognize
13 that signature for property owner manager?
14 A. James Fisher.
11:43:49 15 Q. Okay. It's kind of hard to read based upon the
16 handwriting that's done, but at what location, based upon this
17 exhibit, is this security company going to provide services?
18 A. Rosemont at Thorntree.
19 Q. The same project that's coming for a vote in the near
20 future. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The pay is how much per hour?
23 A. Fifteen fifty.
24 Q. Then it says, "If you agree to the terms that we
25 discussed, please notify our office and J&L Security will

Vol 21 - 142
11:44:30 1 start services in seven" -- I'm having trouble reading it --
2 "seven days after the signing of this agreement. Provident
3 Odyssey Partners will pay for the liability insurance and the
4 startup money for the service."
5 Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then the next one, BP-271, again, the date of the fax
8 from J&L Security to Bill Fisher?
9 A. August 4, 2003.
10 Q. If you would, tell me the timing between when the
11 opposition was raised and when the vote was scheduled where
12 does the signing of these contracts occur?
13 A. In between.
14 Q. This is for a project located in Denton County. Is that
11:45:32 15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Rose Court at Quail.
18 A. Quail Creek.
19 Q. Yes. Thank you.
20 The rate per hour on this contract?
21 A. $17.
22 Q. There is an additional incentive on this contract. Is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. A mobilization fee of how much money?

Vol 21 - 143
11:46:02 1 A. $5,000.
2 Q. Do you recognize the signature on this contract as well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. To be whom?
5 A. James Fisher.
6 Q. What about the signature above that where it says James
7 L. Fantroy owner; do you recognize that signature?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Whose signature is that?
10 A. Mr. Fantroy's.
11 Q. The councilman?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. BP-272 has got a different date on the top of it. Is
14 that correct?
11:46:45 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That date is what?
17 A. August 24th?
18 Q. Correct.
19 A. 2003.
20 Q. This is another contract between J&L Security and James
21 R. Fisher. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It's for a Rose Court property in what city and state?
24 A. Arlington, Texas.
25 Q. The price -- the rate per hour for employees?

Vol 21 - 144
11:47:07 1 A. $17.
2 Q. I can't hardly make out the writing on the bottom of
3 this, but do you recognize those signatures to be the same two
4 signatures as the other contract we just looked at?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This is dated August 24th. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The actual vote is coming up three days later on
9 August 27, 2003?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. What information did you have at that time that
12 Bill Fisher had signed these contracts with James L. Fantroy?
13 A. None.
14 Q. Bill Fisher did not tell you he was doing it?
11:47:51 15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you recall the council meeting on October 27, 2003 --
17 excuse me -- August 27, 2003?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is your memory of that?
20 A. That's when we were at the council, and all of a sudden
21 council was recessed. Mayor Miller came into the -- out where
22 the general public was seated. They went into executive
23 session. There were words that were passed to Leon Backes.
24 Matt Harris was there. Then we -- that was when I found out
25 that Mr. Fantroy did have a contract.

Vol 21 - 145
11:48:43 1 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that Ms. Miller at this point
2 left her seat and sort of charged out into the audience?
3 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, object to leading.
4 THE COURT: That's overruled on that.
5 A. Yes.
6 BY MR. MEACHAM:
7 Q. How much of a ruckus did this create?
8 A. Huge.
9 Q. Describe it for the jury, if you would.
10 You watched it. Is that correct?
11 A. Oh, yeah.
12 Q. Tell them what happened, please.
13 A. Ms. Miller, she came into the -- out where the audience
14 was. She started fussing. Her voice was raised. Cameras
11:49:21 15 were everywhere. There was a real big debacle.
16 Q. After this blowup at city hall, for lack of a better
17 phrase, who additionally was brought in in the area of public
18 relations to help you and Provident Odyssey partners and
19 everybody to decide what to do?
20 A. Carol Reed & Associates.
21 Q. Who was Reed & Associates?
22 A. A public relations firm. They also do a lot of
23 campaigns. Also attorneys -- another attorney.
24 Q. A fair number of y'all sat in a room together, and tried
25 to figure out what to do. Is that correct?

Vol 21 - 146
11:50:07 1 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, he continues to lead the
2 witness.
3 THE COURT: That is a leading question, but on this
4 I'm going to permit it. Try not to lead the witness.
5 MR. MEACHAM: Yes, your Honor.
6 BY MR. MEACHAM:
7 Q. Who all met to meet -- who all met to decide what to do
8 about the contract issue with James Fantroy?
9 A. Leon Backes, Matt Harris, Bill Fisher, Carol Reed and a
10 couple of other people.
11 Q. You were there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was your role, was your input on whether or not the
14 contract should be -- well, let me ask it this way.
11:50:57 15 What was the issue at the meeting?
16 A. The issue at the meeting was should we continue -- since
17 it came up about Mr. Fantroy having the contract, the question
18 was should the contract be continued, and what happens going
19 forward.
20 Q. What was your advice to the people in that room?
21 MR. VITAL: Objection, your Honor, to -- I renew the
22 objection because this is a new line of questions. Objection,
23 hearsay.
24 MR. MEACHAM: I'll rephrase.
25 BY MR. MEACHAM:

Vol 21 - 147
11:51:24 1 Q. What did you think would happen if the contracts were
2 terminated?
3 A. We would lose the project.
4 Q. Because you would lose what?
5 A. We would lose the support of the councilman.
6 Q. What decision was ultimately made about whether or not to
7 keep the contracts in force or terminate them?
8 A. Keep the contracts in force.
9 Q. The vote itself got postponed a couple of weeks. Is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What do you do on behalf of your client, Provident Realty
13 Advisors, to get the necessary vote a couple of weeks later?
14 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, just for clarification, do I
11:52:02 15 continue to have a running objection?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. VITAL: The subject matter has changed.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. VITAL: Relevance.
20 THE COURT: Yes.
22 BY MR. MEACHAM:
23 Q. What do you do?
24 Or let me ask it this way.
25 With Mr. Fantroy recused, how can the project move

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11:52:15 1 forward without him?
2 A. With the support of Councilman Hill, Leo Chaney and
3 Maxine Thornton-Reese.
4 Q. How did you know that?
5 A. We met with them, and we were told that they would be
6 supportive.
7 We had already met with them prior. Any time we have a
8 case, we meet with everybody anyway. Going forward
9 Mr. Fantroy said -- because we did go back and meet with
10 Mr. Fantroy, and Mr. Fantroy said that the --
11 MR. VITAL: Object to hearsay to the charged person.
12 THE COURT: Right. Do you have a hearsay exception
13 you're advocating?
14 MR. MEACHAM: It would be against Mr. Fantroy's
11:52:57 15 interest to make that statement.
16 THE COURT: I'm not admitting it on that basis. If
17 that's the exception you're urging, the objection is
18 sustained.
19 BY MR. MEACHAM:
21 What council members were you directed to see after the
22 conflict came to light?
23 A. Don Hill and Leo Chaney.
24 Q. Did you in fact go see them?
25 A. Yes.

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11:53:21 1 Q. Did you take your clients with you to see them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what were you told about support for the project by
4 Mr. Hill?
5 A. That he would be supportive, and it would move forward.
6 Q. Tell the jury what happened two weeks later when the vote
7 came back up.
8 A. It moved forward.
9 Q. The project was -- that particular vote was approved?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, Ms. Nealy, we have talked several times.
12 At this point in time you know that Mr. Fantroy had asked
13 for work on this project?
14 A. Yes.
11:53:59 15 Q. You had told Bill Fisher unrelated to that that J&L
16 Security was a company that he could use, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Bill Fisher had signed the contracts with Mr. Fantroy,
19 and was agreeing to pay money to him. Is that correct?
20 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, I object to the leading
21 nature.
23 BY MR. MEACHAM:
24 Q. By the time the vote passed what all did you know about
25 Mr. Fantroy's request for contracts and payment of money to

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11:54:42 1 him on behalf of Bill Fisher and the entity Provident Realty
2 Advisors at that time?
3 A. They had a contract.
4 Q. Something Mr. Fantroy asked for?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He's asking for money on things he's supposed to support,
7 correct?
8 MR. VITAL: Objection. That's a leading question.
10 BY MR. MEACHAM:
11 Q. What I'm trying to get at, Ms. Nealy, is your exposure to
12 criminal charges based upon everything that you knew after all
13 this happened. Okay. And you continued to move forward and
14 meet with council members and get the project approved anyway.
11:55:26 15 MR. VITAL: Objection to the form of the question.
16 It's suggestive.
17 THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
18 BY MR. MEACHAM:
19 Q. Have you been told by me, if not other members of the
20 United States Attorney's Office that there were -- let me ask
21 this.
22 What concerns were you told by me or others about the
23 possibility of you being charged in a criminal case?
24 A. That I would not be charged in a criminal case.
25 Q. But there was some?

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11:55:54 1 A. There was -- going through this process I realized that
2 by Mr. Fantroy continuing to talk to us and to make
3 recommendations going forward, that that was illegal.
4 Q. In some of your meetings early with the United States
5 Attorney's Office who represented you on the matter?
6 A. My attorney?
7 Q. You had an attorney, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was that?
10 A. Billy Ravkind.
11 Q. But you know now that you're not going to be charged with
12 anything?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You know that nobody in that room, Bill Fisher is not
11:56:35 15 going to get charged. You know that?
17 Q. Mr. Fantroy did not get charged for that?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. But you are just aware there was that issue out there,
20 that exposure?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I want to move forward to the 2004 time frame, first part
23 of the year.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Are you continuing to work for Provident Realty or the

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11:57:02 1 new entity Provident Odyssey Partners at this point in time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We have already shown Government's Exhibit 1996, but a
4 contract was signed in what month, if you recall?
5 A. March.
6 Q. That was to move forward on a number of projects,
7 correct?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Tell the jury, if you would, what projects you worked
10 on -- let me ask it this way.
11 During the course of 2004, during that time frame, did
12 the entity Provident Odyssey Partners -- or let me ask it one
13 more time.
14 What new entity did Bill Fisher form during this process,
11:57:39 15 if you recall?
16 A. Late summer of 2004 Leon Backes and Bill Fisher with
17 their partner Saleem, they split and two entities were
18 established.
19 Q. Okay. What was the name of Bill Fisher and Saleem
20 Jafar's entity, if you recall?
21 A. They were Odyssey.
22 Q. There were -- the split comes later, but what particular
23 projects are you working on closely with Bill Fisher that he's
24 got coming up for tax credit votes later in 2004?
25 A. We had -- I refer to it as Laureland. So he took

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11:58:29 1 Laureland. He took what I call Simpson Stuart. That's one of
2 in Mr. Fantroy's district. Then he also had on his role still
3 the one in Pleasant Grove.
4 Q. The one you call Laureland has also been referred to by
5 what other names, if you recall?
6 A. If you can --
8 If I used phrase -- or the jury has heard the phrase
9 Memorial Park Townhomes, what project of Fisher's would that
10 be referring to?
11 A. Laureland.
12 Q. So you're working on that project with him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Simpson Stuart?
11:59:09 15 A. Yes.
16 THE COURT: They're having trouble hearing you.
17 BY MR. MEACHAM:
18 Q. Simpson Stuart, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Which is also known as Homes of Pecan Grove?
21 A. Homes of Pecan Grove.
22 Q. Then you mentioned a project in Pleasant Grove?
23 A. Pleasant Grove.
24 Q. Do you recall what that was?

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11:59:27 1 Q. Dallas West Villas or Dallas West Village?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Which district was Memorial Park Townhomes in?
4 A. Don Hill.
5 Q. Okay. In your work for Bill Fisher what did you do in
6 relation to Don Hill to move that project forward?
7 A. We met with Don Hill on many occasions, met with D'Angelo
8 Lee, had community meetings with the community over at the
9 funeral home. Any number of meetings we had.
10 Q. What sort of support does Don Hill tell you he has for
11 this project?
12 A. Oh, we had support nine months for that project up until
13 two weeks before.
14 Q. Same situation -- similar to what happened in 2003 with
12:00:19 15 Mr. Fantroy, correct?
17 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I object to -- one, to
18 leading and suggestive nature of the question.
19 MR. VITAL: And it's irrelevant, your Honor. He's
20 not charged.
21 THE COURT: You have a running objection to
22 relevancy.
23 As to leading, that's sustained.
24 MR. VITAL: If the -- I didn't catch the
25 objection -- the ruling on mine.

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12:00:40 1 THE COURT: You have a running objection. The
2 objection is overruled.
3 MR. VITAL: Okay.
4 BY MR. MEACHAM:
5 Q. Let's focus on Memorial Park Townhomes for my question.
6 When you're hired on a project like that, again, the
7 first step is to make sure you have got the support of whom?
8 A. The council person.
9 Q. Did you do that in this case?
10 A. Yes, we did.
11 Q. What did Don Hill tell you when you met with him?
12 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I object to hearsay.
13 MR. MEACHAM: It's an admission by a party opponent
14 offered against him.
12:01:08 15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 BY MR. MEACHAM:
17 Q. What did Mr. Hill tell you about his support for the
18 Memorial Park Townhomes project?
19 A. He thought it was a great project.
20 Q. Was there anything unusual about that tax credit project
21 that was different from, or in your opinion, better than other
22 projects that had come before?
23 A. Oh, absolutely.
24 Q. If you would, tell the jury all about Memorial Park
25 Townhomes.

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12:01:30 1 A. This project was townhomes, but also the other component
2 that it had was single-family home. The single-family homes
3 we worked out, we're going to work toward a minimum square
4 footage of 1,700 square feet going to 3,000 square feet, and
5 that was huge for the Southern Sector.
6 Q. In particular, what were the needs in District 5 where
7 you had lived for a long time at this point for new housing?
8 A. Well, not only did we need new housing, but we needed
9 larger homes.
10 I mean, as an example that I used all the time in talking
11 to people was my own children, my oldest daughter, she moved
12 to Rockwall because she wanted a house the same size with
13 larger square footage.
14 Q. What did this development of Bill Fisher --
12:02:20 15 THE COURT: Just a minute.
16 I'm doing all I can. I'm now down into the level of
17 detail that requires me to read six pages of material about my
18 control panel here.
19 I haven't done anything to cause the witness' volume to
20 go down, but it seems to have.
21 So, Ms. Nealy, if you would just speak up a little bit
22 more, I would appreciate it.
23 I think I have got yours under control.
24 MR. MEACHAM: Mine seems loud.
25 THE COURT: They're having trouble hearing Ms.

Vol 21 - 157
12:02:51 1 Nealy.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Ms. Nealy, is the green light on your mic button on, or
4 did it get hit?
5 A. No, it's on.
6 Can you hear me now?
7 THE COURT: No, it's not on.
8 All right. Until we break for lunch in ten minutes we're
9 going to struggle through, so you might have to speak up a
10 little bit, and I'll get the tech people up here to fix it. I
11 have done all I can from what I have got here.
12 BY MR. MEACHAM:
13 Q. What information did you have in the process that there
14 was a competing Southwest Housing property across the street?
12:03:28 15 THE COURT: That's what I was afraid would happen.
16 A. What's the question?
17 BY MR. MEACHAM:
18 Q. In relation to Memorial Park Townhomes --
19 THE COURT: I'll tell you what, stop for just a
20 minute and let me see if I can make one adjustment here, see
21 if it might work.
22 Ms. Nealy, just state your name into the microphone now.
23 THE WITNESS: Kathy Nealy.
24 THE COURT: Part of the problem, ladies and
25 gentlemen, so you can appreciate this, is that normally my

Vol 21 - 158
12:04:06 1 courtroom deputy sits here, so all of our system is programmed
2 as if this microphone is not for the witness, and some things
3 refer to this is the witness mic, and some things refer to it
4 as the deputy mic. So I'm not always clear what's being
5 adjusted.
6 Can you turn this one down a little bit.
7 Sorry.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Q. What information did you have about -- in relation to
10 Memorial Park Townhomes about the competing Southwest Housing
11 development across the street?
12 A. When?
13 Q. At any point during the process.
14 A. Very early on in this process the question was raised of
12:04:56 15 Mr. Fantroy, would he be supporting this Laureland project,
16 the one -- what? Memorial Park?
17 Q. Memorial Park Townhomes was in which district, though?
18 A. District 5.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. But a portion of Potashnik's project across the street
21 was in both Don Hill's and Fantroy's district.
22 Okay. So the question became early on Councilman Hill
23 had said he supported what we were doing. We asked
24 Mr. Fantroy if he was supporting what --
25 MR. JACKSON: Objection, hearsay.

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12:05:46 1 THE COURT: Response.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Focus your response only on what Mr. Hill told you.
4 Or let me ask it this way.
5 The question was what information did you have about the
6 competing Southwest Housing development across the street.
7 What did you know about it without telling us anything
8 somebody in particular said to you?
9 A. Rephrase that, because I'm confused.
10 Q. I'm trying to ask if you knew there was a competing
11 Potashnik property across the street from Memorial Park
12 Townhomes?
13 A. And I was trying to answer that.
14 Very --
12:06:18 15 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. I think we have got
16 an issue here that we need to take up outside the presence of
17 the jury, so I'm going to give the jury a lunch break now.
18 We will resume, ladies and gentlemen at 1:30.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: All rise for the jury.
21 THE COURT: Ms. Nealy, you're free to go if you like
22 for the lunch break. We're going to resume at 1:30.
23 Mr. Meacham, I expect you to do better on this hearsay
24 issue. There are countless potential exceptions to the
25 hearsay rule that apply to this testimony, but it's not my job

Vol 21 - 160
12:07:30 1 to figure them out for you.
2 If you don't figure them out, and there is an objection,
3 the objection will be sustained.
4 That's the first point.
5 The second point is you are perpetually leading the
6 witness, and I'm sustaining those objections. I'm going to
7 keep sustaining them, and we're going to be dragging.
8 You can't lead the witness, you are leading the witness.
9 All these questions that end with the word "correct" by
10 definition are leading. I'm going to be sustaining them.
11 So let's all take a deep breath and do better after
12 lunch. 1:30
13 MR. WILLIAMS: All rise.
14 (Lunch recess.)
13:35:09 15 (Judge enters the courtroom)
17 THE COURT: Be seated.
18 I'm going to keep looking over there if you are having
19 trouble with the volume. I have got it now, how to fix it. I
20 was close, but not quite at it. So if you're not hearing,
21 just let me know, and I have got it under control now.
22 All right. Mr. Meacham, you may proceed.
23 BY MR. MEACHAM:
24 Q. Ms. Nealy, before lunch we were talking about your work
25 in 2004 with Provident Odyssey Partners, in particular Bill

Vol 21 - 161
13:36:51 1 Fisher.
2 I want to direct your attention to an e-mail,
3 Government's Exhibit 1714.
4 Do you recognize this document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It's in relation to mutually exclusive sites on Camp
7 Wisdom.
8 Tell us what the issue is here.
9 A. The issue here is state law says regarding these tax
10 credits that you cannot have two projects within the same --
11 within a certain number of feet. I mean, certain radius.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Which was, as I was trying to state earlier, one of the
14 reasons why we had the support of Don Hill for Memorial Park.
13:37:59 15 So I was asking Mr. Fantroy about him being supportive of
16 Memorial Park.
17 Q. What's going on right now with Fantroy's recusal on these
18 voting items? Anything?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Who from District 8 do you visit with mostly about
21 whether or not the projects are going to have approval there?
22 A. Carol Brandon.
23 Q. She's the planning commissioner, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why is it that you are visiting with Carol Brandon for

Vol 21 - 162
13:38:31 1 the most part?
2 A. For the most part I'm visiting with her because she is
3 the planning commissioner for District 8.
4 And Mr. Fantroy early on when we are talking about just
5 projects in general, tax credit projects, those -- Simpson
6 Stuart was the one he was supportive of, and then we would
7 talk to Carol Brandon.
8 Q. Simpson Stuart -- let me ask it this way.
9 How far -- the Simpson Stuart property is Pecan Grove.
10 This is Memorial Park Townhomes.
11 How far away from each other approximately are they, if
12 you know?
13 A. Several miles.
14 Q. They're generally in the same part of town, even on the
13:39:13 15 same street more or less?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If you would, just in general tell the jury where that
18 is.
19 A. Simpson Stuart is closer to -- Camp Wisdom turns into
20 Simpson Stuart going toward Paul Quinn College. So it's in
21 close proximity by Lancaster Road and Bonnie View.
22 Q. To take it out a little bit bigger that would be between
23 Interstate 35 and Interstate 45. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On essentially the same road?

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13:39:51 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Because Camp Wisdom changes names into Simpson Stuart?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The ones down the road closer to Interstate 45 are in
5 whose district?
6 A. Mr. Fantroy.
7 Q. The competing property there, if you recall, were what?
8 A. Simpson Stuart. But there was another project that
9 Mr. Potashnik had.
10 Q. Do you recall the name of that project?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. Could it be Simpson Villas?
13 A. Something like that, yes.
14 Q. That's where Homes of Pecan Grove was?
13:40:23 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Both in District 8?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Closer to Interstate 35 on Camp Wisdom, Memorial Park
19 Townhomes in District 5, and Laureland -- Rosemont at
20 Laureland in District 8?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, since they're within one mile or competing with each
23 other --
24 A. The decision had to be made early on as far as which one
25 he was going to be supportive of.

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13:40:45 1 Q. Why is that critical to the developer?
2 A. Because it's a lot of planning that goes into that,
3 having to do architectural.
4 At Memorial Park we have to deal with infrastructure,
5 especially in dealing with the homes -- the single-family
6 homes.
7 The terrain, there was some problems there. So a lot --
8 it was going to cost upwards of over a million dollars for
9 infrastructure that was going to be put into that project.
10 Q. Mr. Fisher's concerns here are financial?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What are his financial concerns?
13 A. His concern was if we're not going to have the support,
14 then I don't want to be moving forward on these contingent
13:41:30 15 projects.
16 Q. Do you know approximately how much it cost financially to
17 move forward on one of these projects throughout the process?
18 And you can focus on Memorial Park Townhomes for your
19 answer, if you would like.
20 A. What I can talk about is I know that from the time that
21 we started to the time that this was -- this project was
22 denied, Mr. Fisher had spent between 350 and $400,000.
23 Q. On this particular project?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In an effort to make sure the support is there, how often

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13:42:09 1 did you meet with the council member in the district? Don
2 Hill in this particular case.
3 A. We met quite often. At least probably every month. I
4 remember -- because basically what I tried to do is keep the
5 council members updated as far as what's going on with the
6 particular project.
7 Q. I don't think you told us this before lunch, but in
8 addition to making sure you have got that council member's
9 support, what other council members are necessary to get a
10 vote passed?
11 A. You need eight votes to get anything passed at city hall.
12 We don't have a strong mayor. We have a city management form.
13 The one thing that I do as a consultant a lot different
14 from lot of people --
13:42:56 15 MR. JACKSON: Objection, your Honor, nonresponsive.
16 THE COURT: Sustained. Just answer the question.
17 BY MR. MEACHAM:
18 Q. What do you do in addition to making sure you have the
19 support of the district council member?
20 A. In order to get eight votes you have to talk to more than
21 eight planning commissioners. We have to talk to all council
22 members and all planning commissioners to ensure that we have
23 eight votes.
24 Q. Why is that important to you in your line of work?
25 A. Because if I'm not successful on -- number one, sometimes

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13:43:24 1 there are success fees attached to these, but also being
2 successful means other people will hire you to do work.
3 Q. When did you start your career as a zoning consultant?
4 A. When?
5 Q. When.
6 A. '96, '97.
7 Q. What would you say your success rate is after you get
8 passed that preliminary meeting with the council member and
9 have preliminary support for a project?
10 A. Could you repeat that?
11 Q. After you get passed the preliminary meeting and have
12 some preliminary support from the council member --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- what would you say your success rate is for your
13:44:01 15 clients, if you know?
16 A. No. We always know, so upward of 90 percent, close to
17 100 percent.
18 Q. How many times have you not been able to succeed based on
19 preliminary and continued support, say, for several months and
20 the lost support at the end of a matter?
21 A. In a situation that occurred on this, this is the first
22 time. Generally we know when we're not going to be
23 successful.
24 Q. How many times has it happened since then?
25 A. It hasn't.

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13:44:37 1 MR. MEACHAM: I want you to look at Don Hill's
2 calendar, Government's Exhibit 668, page 158.
3 If we could focus on the top third of that, please.
4 BY MR. MEACHAM:
5 Q. Do you see the date on that, Ms. Nealy?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. June 29, 2004?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who does Mr. Hill have a meeting scheduled with that
10 morning at 8:30?
11 A. Kathy Nealy, Bill Fisher.
12 Q. And the name of the entity?
13 A. Provident Realty.
14 Q. Would this be a scheduled meeting that you would do on a
13:45:11 15 project like this?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What, if anything, did you find out from Mr. Hill on this
18 occasion about his lack of support for the project?
19 A. This project?
20 Q. Any of the projects. On June 29th what, if anything, did
21 you find out then?
22 A. We were still supportive.
23 Q. When you say, "we were still supportive," who was
24 supporting you on this project?
25 A. Don Hill.

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13:45:43 1 Q. In addition to Mr. Hill, are you also meeting with his
2 planning commissioner on this project?
3 A. Sure.
4 Q. That being D'Angelo Lee?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What type of support do you have from him?
7 A. We have support.
8 MR. MEACHAM: I want to move forward to page 199 of
9 the exhibit, Mr. Hill's calendar.
10 August, the top third will be fine.
11 BY MR. MEACHAM:
12 Q. What date is this meeting scheduled for?
13 A. August 15th.
14 Q. Who is Mr. Hill scheduled to meet at 8:30 or 9:00 that
13:46:33 15 day?
16 A. Kathy Nealy and Bill Fisher.
17 Q. The purpose of this meeting with Mr. Hill would be to do
18 what?
19 A. Update him on the project.
20 Q. What kind of support do you have from Mr. Hill on
21 August 16, 2004?
22 A. We have support.
23 Q. How would you characterize his support? What is he
24 telling you about how he likes the project?
25 A. Councilman Hill loved the project. I mean, he had the

Vol 21 - 169
13:47:07 1 same concern that I had as far as the Southern Sector not
2 having a lot of single-family homes. This was what was unique
3 about this particular project, so everybody was pretty excited
4 about it, very favorable.
5 Q. Same with his planning commissioner?
6 A. Sure.
7 Q. Would you give us a little bit more detail about how
8 there was going to be a single-family home component to this
9 development?
10 A. This entire project was totally different. Most tax
11 credit projects are multi-family projects, but it was a
12 townhome-style project.
13 What made this one unique was that this was going to be
14 starting out with a townhome project. These were townhomes.
13:48:05 15 The concern becomes people start -- like a starter home.
16 You start and then you move to another -- you know, you have a
17 starter home, then you move to a second home.
18 So this was an opportunity for people to go from a
19 townhome project to a single-family home.
20 What was also unique about this particular -- besides of
21 the homes was in the Southern Sector what is kind of referred
22 to a lot of times, developers want to come in and they want to
23 build what they call these matchbox homes, which are less than
24 1,500 square feet.
25 Here we had a commitment that the minimum size home was

Vol 21 - 170
13:48:58 1 going to be 1,700 square feet, and they were going to upwards
2 to 3,000 square feet. So that was a great plus for our
3 community.
4 Q. In addition to those things, financially who was going to
5 be responsible for putting in the infrastructure for those
6 homes?
7 A. Bill Fisher.
8 Q. Streets, what would the infrastructure be?
9 A. The streets, the utilities. This is what actually was
10 some of the additional costs, because it required a lot of
11 engineering, going back and forth with the staff as far as
12 what these exact needs were going to be.
13 Q. What role was Bill Fisher going to have, if any, in any
14 of the actual -- building the homes himself?
13:49:44 15 A. He wasn't going to be the builder. He was going to
16 identify them, but by having identify people are challenged
17 with not going to build the infrastructure not there.
18 So with the infrastructure being there, the land being
19 there, the terrain being there, then all it would need would
20 be to have a developer, a housing developer to act on it.
21 Q. When is the first time that you recall Don Hill having an
22 issue with this project?
23 A. It was about two weeks before the actual vote. We had a
24 meeting at the Original House of Pancakes.
25 MR. MEACHAM: Can we see Don Hill's calendar,

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13:50:32 1 Government's Exhibit 668, page 250.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Do you remember where the Original House of Pancakes is
4 located?
5 A. Off of Lemmon.
6 Q. I'm showing you the October 12, 2004 entry at 8:30.
7 Tell us what that says.
8 A. Bill Fisher, Kathy Nealy, 2900 Lemmon Avenue.
9 Q. Do you recall the date that the tax credit votes were
10 coming on this particular project?
11 A. Within a couple of weeks.
12 Q. October 27th could have been the date?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Tell us what happened at this meeting, if you would.
13:51:12 15 A. At this particular meeting we were told that Don had a
16 problem, was having a problem with our project, and that was
17 the first time that we heard it.
18 Q. What sorts of problems or issues does Mr. Hill have about
19 your project or your development?
20 A. They ranged from Bill Fisher and Leon Backes had
21 separated their businesses, and so one of the questions was
22 financial capability.
23 The other question was about -- financial -- having a
24 developer identified so it was like are you sure that you're
25 going to be able to build the houses on these particular

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13:52:10 1 property.
2 Q. So you mentioned financial concerns, developer or
3 development concerns?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. What, if anything, came up about contractors or people to
6 be used in construction on the projects, if anything?
7 A. There was an issue throughout that was raised about
8 contractors.
9 Q. What was that issue?
10 A. With tax credits you already have -- with tax credit
11 properties you're already -- there is a certain percentage of
12 the projects -- there are certain percentages of the projects
13 that should go to minority and women-owned businesses.
14 When we started out from doing the community meetings,
13:53:03 15 and kind of throughout the process D'Angelo Lee as well Don
16 were concerned about making sure that we had minority
17 participation and identify before who would participate.
18 THE COURT: Try that again. I think you're leaning
19 into it a little bit too much. Just lean back. I'll turn it
20 up.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 BY MR. MEACHAM:
23 Q. The last part of your answer had to do with?
24 A. Minority contractors. From the community meetings as
25 well as throughout the updates that we were talking about they

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13:53:38 1 wanted to make sure that we had minority participants as well
2 as identify some of those contractors would be.
3 Q. Do you recall who or which specific minority contractors
4 you were directed to use by public officials?
5 A. There were a couple of names there were given, and if you
6 mention them, we could talk about them.
7 Q. But you don't recall off the top of your head who they
8 are?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How many times prior to that had a council member
11 recommended to you a specific subcontractor for a development?
12 A. They always just give a couple of names, but generally we
13 talk -- with tax credits generally you are dealing with these
14 percentages as opposed to getting into the details of who they
13:54:29 15 are.
16 Q. Was this Don Hill or D'Angelo Lee making these
17 recommendations to you?
18 A. It started out with D'Angelo.
19 Q. What role, if any, did Don Hill have in that?
20 A. He was supportive of it.
21 Q. What, if anything, did you know at the time -- we're
22 going to backtrack in a minute and talk about the other
23 project, but focusing on Memorial Park Townhomes what, if
24 anything, did you know at the time about Mr. Hill scheduling
25 competing meetings between you and Bill Fisher on one hand,

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13:55:04 1 and Brian Potashnik and D'Angelo Lee and others on the other
2 hand?
3 A. I was not aware.
4 MR. MEACHAM: Could we see Government's Exhibit
5 3130, please.
6 BY MR. MEACHAM:
7 Q. It's e-mail dated August 31, 2004 from Glenda Aguirre to
8 Don Hill. She's actually replying, but his e-mail that starts
9 the reply in on the bottom of that.
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'll read it. "Kathy Nealy wants to meet with me along
13 with Bill Fisher and D'Angelo. I want to meet with Potashnik
14 first. How are we doing with Potashnik?"
13:55:50 15 What did you know about his ongoing meetings with the
16 developer on the other side of the street at this point?
17 A. I was not aware.
18 Q. Whose support up until that October 12th meeting did
19 Mr. Hill say he was going to give to the project?
20 A. He was supporting our project.
21 Q. After the October 12th meeting at the Pancake House when
22 you heard that things weren't going so well for Memorial Park
23 Townhomes, what action did you take in the two weeks leading
24 up to the October 27th vote?
25 A. We were pretty much jumping over hoops trying to answer

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13:56:42 1 any and all questions that were being raised from financial --
2 the City asked for financials, wanted us to -- Bill Fisher and
3 Saleem to provide their financial records.
4 They also wanted to know -- the issue was being raised
5 from Don and D'Angelo in reference to who was going to
6 actually be the person building these -- this project, who
7 also are going to be the minority contractors on this project.
8 Q. As you're going through that process every time you
9 answer a question posed to you, what did you get in return?
10 A. Another question.
11 Q. How long did that continue?
12 A. Up until the end.
13 Q. Essentially how many days in October of 2007 -- excuse
14 me -- October 2004 do you think you worked down at city hall
13:57:44 15 on these projects?
16 A. What was the question?
17 Q. How many days in October of 2004 were you working on
18 these projects?
19 A. Just about every day.
20 MR. MEACHAM: Can we see Government's Exhibit
21 3209, page 72.
22 BY MR. MEACHAM:
23 Q. Do you recognize what this is?
24 A. It looks like a calendar.
25 Q. Is it -- whose calendar is it?

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13:58:14 1 A. It looks like my calendar.
2 Q. Looks like your calendar?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you argue with me if I said it was?
5 A. No.
6 MR. MEACHAM: Let's just focus in on the 4th, 5th
7 and 6th.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Do you see various meetings related to Provident -- or
10 POV?
11 What does that mean to you?
12 A. That's Provident.
13 Q. One of the projects upcoming for a vote?
14 A. Yes.
13:58:44 15 Q. Going back to October 1st and 2nd, even events going on
16 on the weekend. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. MEACHAM: Go to the 27th, 28th and 29th.
19 I'm sorry. The block above that.
20 BY MR. MEACHAM:
21 Q. Various markings related to projects we've been talking
22 about. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, all these issues that have been raised since
25 October 12th and October 27th, no matter how you answered

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13:59:40 1 them, what was the ultimate result of the vote on Memorial
2 Park Townhomes?
3 A. We lost.
4 Q. You lost it.
5 How important were all those issues that were brought up
6 in relation to the project that was three miles down the road
7 on the same street, Homes of Pecan Grove?
8 A. Would -- could you repeat that?
9 Q. How did those issues factor into what happened on the
10 Homes of Pecan Grove vote?
11 A. Well, Homes of Pecan Grove passed. Ours failed. The
12 issue that was raised was about financials and all the
13 financials -- we had big discussions going back and forth.
14 Q. My question is, how were Bill Fisher's -- we'll use his
14:00:32 15 name instead of the business -- how were his financial
16 difficulties different on the Pecan Grove project than they
17 were on the Memorial Park Townhomes project?
18 A. There was no difference.
19 Q. What kind of issue were his financial in that vote down
20 in District 8?
21 A. There wasn't an issue.
22 Q. Were you ever worried about that one passing?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. We had the support of Mr. Fantroy. Don said that that

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14:01:04 1 one would pass.
2 Q. In fact, he passed it, didn't he?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tried to on October 27th, got continued a couple of
5 weeks, but ultimately on Homes of Pecan Grove, what happened?
6 A. It passed.
7 Q. I want to move back in time now to October 25, 2004.
8 MR. MEACHAM: If we could pull up Government's
9 Exhibit 307.
10 I said October. I meant August.
11 BY MR. MEACHAM:
12 Q. Do you recall being at the council on August 25, 2004 for
13 a vote for one of the projects you had been working on?
14 A. Yes, that was the one at Village Fair.
14:01:52 15 Q. Provident at Village Fair?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. During that meeting do you recall Mr. Darren Reagan
18 addressing the council?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What, if anything, did he do there?
21 A. Public hearing was being held, we were all sitting there,
22 and all the sudden Darren comes into the council, comes down
23 front. Apparently this document had been passed out to all
24 the council members, and he wants to put a moratorium on these
25 tax credits properties because of concern that we need to have

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14:02:32 1 more retail in the Southern Sector as opposed to housing.
2 Q. What went through your mind when you saw Darren Reagan
3 make that presentation?
4 MR. STEINKE: To which we will object as not being
5 relevant, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: That's overruled. You may answer.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Q. What went through your mind when you saw Darren Reagan
10 make that presentation?
11 A. Where is he coming from.
12 Q. What do you mean by that?
13 A. Well, we had -- we had had all of these projects --
14 THE COURT: Back up just a little bit.
14:03:01 15 A. All of these projects, prior to going to council, we had
16 a community meeting. This particular community meeting on
17 this particular project was over at South Oak High School. We
18 did not have opposition to the -- we did have -- we didn't
19 have any opposition at that particular meeting.
20 There was some concern at first over by -- because we met
21 with the Christ for the Nation, but there was a property owner
22 right there by the -- they were going to build some
23 properties, and he had a concern. Other than that that was
24 the only concern that we had. We were working through that
25 issue with that homeowner.

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14:03:48 1 Darren came down kind of out of nowhere, and we weren't
2 expecting that to happen.
3 Q. What council members did you speak with after this
4 October -- August 25th council meeting where this letter was
5 written?
6 A. Councilman Hill, Councilman Chaney, Counselman Fantroy.
7 Q. What did those council individuals advise you to do in
8 relation to Darren Reagan's letter of opposition?
9 MR. STEINKE: To which we object as hearsay.
10 THE COURT: What did they do is what you asked,
11 wasn't it?
12 MR. MEACHAM: Yes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: That's overruled.
14 MR. MEACHAM: They directed us -- they directed --
14:04:23 15 MR. STEINKE: Your Honor --
16 THE COURT: Just describe what actually happened.
17 Not what people said.
18 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
19 THE COURT: Is that your objection?
21 BY MR. MEACHAM:
22 Q. You can't do it, can you, Ms. Nealy?
23 A. Can I have the question asked again?
25 What did Don Hill tell you to do?

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14:04:43 1 A. Meet with Darren Reagan.
2 Q. What did council member Fantroy tell you to do?
3 A. Meet with Darren Reagan.
4 Q. Did you in fact at some point later on follow their
5 advice?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who did you take with you to meet with Darren Reagan?
8 A. Bill Fisher.
9 MR. MEACHAM: If we could look at --
10 BY MR. MEACHAM:
11 Q. Do you recall where you met?
12 A. Pappadeaux Restaurant off of 67.
13 Q. Do you recall the date of that meeting?
14 A. It was within 30 days. Certainly had to be in September.
14:05:29 15 Q. Do you recall the date being September 20th?
16 A. I guess.
17 Q. Of 2004?
19 Q. I would like to show you Government's Exhibit 315,
20 which I'll represent to you is Allen McGill's calendar or a
21 planning guide.
22 MR. MEACHAM: Let's go to page 14.
23 BY MR. MEACHAM:
24 Q. Do you know who Allen McGill is?
25 A. Yes.

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14:06:33 1 Q. Who is that?
2 A. He's very involved in the community. He works with and
3 advised Darren Reagan with the Black State Employees
4 Association of Texas.
5 Q. Was he at this meeting as well, or do you recall?
6 A. There were -- Allen was at a meeting that we had, because
7 we had a couple of meetings with Darren.
8 There was also a meeting that we had with Darren and his
9 parents.
10 That was it
11 Q. Let's focus on September 20th, because the timing is
12 important.
13 According to this calendar there shows to be a lunch with
14 Kathy and Bill Fisher.
14:07:18 15 The Kathy would be who?
16 A. Kathy Nealy.
17 Q. At Pappadeaux?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. At 1:30. Mr. McGill shows he has another appointment.
20 Do you see what that is?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who is he meeting -- who is he scheduled to meet with at
23 1:30?
24 A. Fantroy and Hill.
25 Q. At this meeting at Pappadeaux on September 20th what was

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14:07:43 1 discussed by Mr. Reagan about his opposition to these
2 projects?
3 A. Darren's position was about retail and not having too
4 many multi-families.
5 Also -- so retail was an interest. Also being a part of
6 that retail, helping put all that together.
7 Q. After the meeting what did you think was going on with
8 Mr. Reagan's support or opposition, if any, to your project?
9 A. I thought he was going to be supportive.
10 Q. Thought you had worked out any issues?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. What concerns did you have after that meeting about Bill
13 Fisher meeting with Darren Reagan without you?
14 A. I instructed Bill Fisher that in meeting with Darren he
14:08:43 15 should -- well, any meeting he should not be alone.
16 Q. Why is that?
17 A. In the community Darren has a -- well, kind of a mixed
18 reputation.
19 MR. STEINKE: Your Honor, I object to any reputation
20 testimony.
21 THE COURT: That's sustained. Ask a different
22 question.
23 MR. STEINKE: Can I ask that the jury be instructed
24 to disregard the answer.
25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I instruct you to

Vol 21 - 184
14:09:15 1 disregard that.
2 Ask a different question, please.
3 To the extent that you're asking questions about why the
4 witness took certain actions, you may ask that. We'll give
5 the jury a limiting instruction.
6 BY MR. MEACHAM:
7 Q. My question is what were your concerns about Bill Fisher
8 meeting without you?
9 THE COURT: I'm going to permit that, and I'm going
10 to give the jury a limiting instruction.
11 Ladies and gentlemen, the witness is not permitted to
12 give an opinion about what the reputation of Mr. Reagan might
13 have been. You're not to take her testimony about that as
14 establishing what his reputation was. It's simply admissible
14:09:55 15 to explain why the witness took such conduct as she took.
16 Any objection to the Court's instruction?
17 MR. STEINKE: No, ma'am.
19 You may answer that then, Ms. Nealy.
21 BY MR. MEACHAM:
22 Q. What were your concerns about Bill Fisher meeting by
23 himself with Darren Reagan without you there?
24 THE COURT: You may answer the question.
25 A. I wanted to make sure that everything was done right.

Vol 21 - 185
14:10:28 1 Q. You had concerns -- why did you have concerns about you
2 not being there?
3 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I think that's asked and
4 answered, the last question asked.
5 THE COURT: That's overruled. I have given the jury
6 instructions, and it applies to this series of answers.
7 BY MR. MEACHAM:
8 Q. You're going to have to go there, Ms. Nealy.
9 Why are you concerned about Bill Fisher meeting with
10 Darren Reagan?
11 MR. JACKSON: I object to the sidebar in the
12 question.
13 THE COURT: Overruled. Let's move along, please.
14:11:07 15 THE COURT: Why were you concerned about Mr. Reagan
16 meeting with Mr. Fisher without you there?
17 A. There have been occasions in our community, whether it
18 was one of the banks on Camp Wisdom or different issues, where
19 opposition was created by Darren and then things were worked
20 out and that opposition went away.
21 Q. What does it take to make Darren Reagan's opposition to a
22 development go away?
23 MR. STEINKE: To which we would object unless a
24 foundation is laid.
25 THE COURT: All right. The objection is sustained.

Vol 21 - 186
14:11:55 1 Establish a foundation, please.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Do you know from living in the community and being
4 involved in these matters what it takes to make Darren Reagan
5 and BSEAT opposition go away to a project?
6 MR. STEINKE: Same objection, your Honor,
7 foundation.
9 MR. VITAL: Objection, Rule 403 and 404(b).
11 You may answer based on your experience if you have a
12 experience that would give a basis for such an answer.
13 MR. VITAL: I'm sorry. Just for the record, your
14 Honor, ordinarily 404(a).
14:12:25 15 THE COURT: All the 404s.
16 A. Could you repeat the question?
17 BY MR. MEACHAM:
18 Q. When Darren Reagan opposes these particulars projects in
19 the name of BSEAT, what does it take to make his opposition go
20 away?
21 A. Contributions to the organization.
22 Q. Said another way would be money, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you instruct Bill Fisher based upon your concerns?
25 A. I would have -- I told Bill Fisher do not meet by himself

Vol 21 - 187
14:13:17 1 over and over again.
2 Q. How well did Bill Fisher follow your instructions, if you
3 know?
4 A. He didn't.
5 Q. After this meeting at Pappadeaux on September 20th --
6 MR. MEACHAM: Let's look of Don Hill's calendar,
7 Government's Exhibit 668, page 231.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Q. Let's see who Don Hill had a meeting scheduled with at
10 1:30 that afternoon.
11 Can you tell who Don Hill was meeting with at 1:30 on
12 September 20th?
13 A. Darren Reagan and James Fantroy.
14 MS. SALDANA: If we can pull up Government's 2024,
14:14:31 15 please.
16 BY MR. MEACHAM:
17 Q. Do you recognize what this is?
18 A. A folder for Kathy Nealy & Associates.
19 Q. All right. Let's look at page 2 of the document. Maybe
20 that will help out.
21 A. Contract.
22 Q. Contract with Provident Odyssey Partners, correct?
23 A. Yes, with Kathy Nealy & Associates.
24 Q. In this investigation what did you do with the files you
25 had on these related entities? Who were they turned over to?

Vol 21 - 188
14:15:15 1 A. They were turned over to the U.S. Attorney's Office.
2 Q. Do you recognize this as perhaps being a copy of your
3 file that you turned over?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. MEACHAM: I want to focus now on page 24.
6 The receipt on the left. Blow them both up. That's
7 fine.
8 BY MR. MEACHAM:
9 Q. I want to ask you if you remember a dinner meeting at the
10 Pappadeaux?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who was in attendance?
13 A. At that meeting was Bill Fisher, Darren Reagan, D'Angelo
14 Lee, Don Hill was there for a while, myself.
14:16:00 15 Q. And Bill Fisher was there also, is that correct, or did
16 you meet without Mr. Fisher?
17 A. I think he was there.
18 Q. Okay. November 16, 2004. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was the nature of this meeting?
23 What did you write on the bottom of the receipt?
24 A. Dallas West Village.
25 Q. One of the projects, correct?

Vol 21 - 189
14:16:28 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did y'all talk about at this meeting?
3 A. Dallas West Village. We were talking about how to get
4 the support to successfully get the project approved before
5 council.
6 Q. What was it going to take to make that happen?
7 A. Here at this meeting we were -- well, Don instructed us
8 to work with Darren and D'Angelo regarding this project. And
9 then he -- because he had to leave, if I'm not mistaken here,
10 and then we continued to talk about minority participation,
11 the retail component. Because this one was going to have a
12 retail component to it.
13 Q. How many contracts at this point in time were you aware
14 that Bill Fisher had signed with Darren Reagan and BSEAT?
14:17:49 15 A. None.
16 Q. I skipped over a date in this time frame.
17 What information did you have regarding a request that
18 Bill Fisher sponsor a birthday party for Don Hill?
19 A. Oh, I heard about the birthday party.
20 Q. Who did you hear about it from? Without getting into
21 what they said.
22 A. About the birthday party?
23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. I heard about the birthday party from D'Angelo, Bill
25 Fisher, Leon Backes.

Vol 21 - 190
14:18:27 1 Q. When you spoke with D'Angelo Lee about the birthday party
2 what did he tell you and what did you tell him in response?
3 A. D'Angelo was talking about getting supporters, sponsors
4 for it, and I explained to him that there is a limit of a
5 thousand per council person. Nobody go can give past that
6 limit. If they have already given, they can't give anymore.
7 Q. What did Mr. Lee say about that when you told him?
8 A. He wasn't -- D'Angelo he didn't believe what I was
9 saying.
10 Q. Did you discuss the birthday party with Bill Fisher and
11 Leon Backes?
12 A. Excuse me?
13 Q. Did you talk about the birthday party request with Bill
14 Fisher?
14:19:32 15 A. I told both and he Leon Backes not to participate in the
16 birthday party.
17 Q. Why not?
18 A. Because they were asking them for $2,500 or more. You
19 cannot give to that. City council people can only take
20 $1,000. And I went over that over and over and over again.
21 Q. This request was made to Bill Fisher what, if any,
22 matters did he have pending before either the CPC or Dallas
23 City Council, if you recall?
24 A. He still had the projects before it.
25 Q. During this process you mentioned a fair number of

Vol 21 - 191
14:20:20 1 meetings with Darren Reagan and D'Angelo Lee.
2 Approximately how many times do you think you met with
3 them?
4 A. What time frame are you talking about?
5 Q. Let's talk about, say, the fall of 2004, into early 2005,
6 how many times do you think you met with those two individuals
7 when they were together?
8 A. We met on a number of occasions. I stopped meeting with
9 them in early January. They were having a meeting with Bill
10 Fisher of which I had not been invited. Darren wanted me to
11 come to the meeting, but I had to explain to him that because
12 I got paid by the hour Bill Fisher had not invited me to come,
13 I couldn't come to that meeting.
14 But prior to that we met on -- several times a month.
14:21:32 15 Q. What do D'Angelo Lee and Darren Reagan tell you about
16 their ability to control Don Hill's vote on matters pending
17 before the council?
18 A. They could get that done.
19 Q. I want to focus just a few more questions on the October
20 27th time frame.
21 You have talked about that a lot today. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Votes pending -- let me back up.
24 How many months do you recall having Don Hill's support
25 on the Memorial Park Townhomes case?

Vol 21 - 192
14:22:26 1 A. From March all the way to the time we went to the
2 Original House of Pancakes.
3 Q. Which we have established was October 4, 2004, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many other occasions had you had the support of a
6 council member for a long period of time, and then opposition
7 raised at the last minute?
8 A. This was the first time it's ever happened.
9 Q. What about the height restrictions the previous year on
10 the other project with Mr. Fantroy?
11 A. Well, we had the height restriction with that project,
12 but we ended up the project passed.
13 Q. You were able to work it out?
14 A. Yes.
14:23:04 15 Q. This was the only time that what happened?
16 A. I referred to it as almost a 360. Because we had the
17 support of everyone all the way up until this time.
18 Q. What do you know about community meetings conducted in
19 District 8 by Don Hill in relation to the Rosemont at
20 Laureland property?
21 A. That was -- we had heard of a meeting over there.
22 MR. VITAL: Objection to hearsay to what she heard.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me explain.
24 THE COURT: Stop talking, please.
25 All right. That is sustained.

Vol 21 - 193
14:23:47 1 Ask another question.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Without getting into anything specifically somebody told
4 you, what is your knowledge regarding a community meeting held
5 in District 8 regarding the Rosemont at Laureland property?
6 MR. VITAL: Objection, foundation, speculation.
7 Foundation. Personal knowledge.
9 MR. VITAL: Whether she was there or not.
11 MR. MEACHAM: There was a meeting in the community.
12 BY MR. MEACHAM:
13 Q. What role did the planning commissioner for that district
14 have in that, to your knowledge?
14:24:20 15 A. She was not invited.
16 Q. Was that unusual?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Given all these things that hadn't happened before,
19 Ms. Nealy, what did you think was going on on October 7, 2004?
20 A. Could you rephrase the question?
21 Q. You talked about this community meeting where the city
22 planning commissioner wasn't invited, we talked about the
23 support for a long period of time, and then you called it a
24 360, might actually be a 180 maybe, then you don't get the
25 vote, lots of issues related to a developer, but a project

Vol 21 - 194
14:25:02 1 down the street gets approved.
2 My question is what in your mind -- you're down there all
3 the time and had been for years, what do you think is going
4 on?
5 A. We got screwed.
6 Q. When you say "we," who?
7 A. Bill Fisher.
8 Q. Who messed him around?
9 A. Don Hill.
10 Q. Would it make it any clearer to you what was going on
11 October 27th if you knew one simple additional fact?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That fact being -- let me ask it this way.
14 What would be the significance to you, knowing everything
14:25:43 15 that happened on or about that time frame, of an agreement
16 between Brian Potashnik to pay Don Hill's girlfriend $175,000
17 five days before those votes?
18 A. Then I would understand why we didn't get the vote.
19 Q. Did it leave any unanswered questions in your mind about
20 what happened?
21 A. No.
22 MR. MEACHAM: May I have a minute, your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
24 Let's take a stretch here, ladies and gentlemen.
25 (Sotto voce discussion between government lawyers.)

Vol 21 - 195
14:27:27 1 THE COURT: All right. Be seated, please.
2 BY MR. MEACHAM:
3 Q. Just one more area, Ms. Nealy.
4 How concerned were you during this whole process -- or at
5 any time about the conduct of D'Angelo Lee as a city planning
6 commissioner?
7 A. Extremely concerned.
8 Q. Why was that?
9 A. Back in 2004 I talked to Councilman Hill, I talked to
10 D'Angelo Lee and others about his conduct.
11 Q. What were your concerns?
12 A. Crossing the line.
13 Q. When you would take clients or developers to meet him as
14 a city planning commissioner what would the nature of the
14:28:43 15 discussions turn into?
16 A. Couple of things.
17 Number one, many times D'Angelo was late. Many times
18 D'Angelo stood us up.
19 Also, when we're there to talk about our projects,
20 because D'Angelo was trying to be a developer himself, so he
21 wanted to talk about his projects too.
22 What I was trying to explain to him is you can't talk
23 about both of those at one time.
24 Q. Why is that?
25 A. Because it's a conflict of interest.

Vol 21 - 196
14:29:25 1 Q. How many times do you think you told Mr. Hill about your
2 concerns about Mr. Lee?
3 A. Several times.
4 Q. When was the first time you told him approximately?
5 A. It was in the summer of 2004.
6 Q. How often?
7 A. I mean, another time we were at a restaurant, we had
8 lunch and I told him that on that occasion. Several times. I
9 even told him --
10 Q. You even told him what?
11 A. That he was crossing the line, getting sideways.
12 Q. What do you mean that Mr. Lee was "getting sideways"?
13 A. As I said, he would want to talk about his projects.
14 That there was even a lunch meeting one time that we were
14:30:25 15 meeting with Bill Fisher, he had brought some financial
16 people, he wanted to be introduced to some financial people.
17 And this particular lunch was a couple of days before we were
18 having a meeting -- I mean, we were having something before
19 the plan commission, which then -- I mean, that's just close.
20 You can't do it.
21 Q. When you would tell Mr. Hill about your concerns, how
22 would he respond, what would he say back to you?
23 A. His response was I need to teach him.
24 I said, Don, he's a problem. You try to teach him,
25 but. . .

Vol 21 - 197
14:31:17 1 Q. How many times -- or let me ask it this way.
2 Did you ever ask Mr. Hill why he did Mr. Fisher this way
3 on October 27, 2004?
4 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, I'm just going to object to
5 the question. I don't think there is a foundation for that.
6 THE COURT: That's overruled. Objection noted.
7 You may answer the question.
9 BY MR. MEACHAM:
10 Q. Let me back up before we move on to that question.
11 What types of things did Mr. Lee ask you ask your clients
12 to do for him at these meetings where he's going sideways, so
13 to speak?
14 A. He was wanting to be introduced to the financial people
14:32:08 15 that would help him with his project.
16 Q. What else, if anything?
17 A. Minority contractors specifically.
18 Q. You don't remember names off the top of your head on who
19 some of the minority contractors were?
20 A. We were -- one meeting he had some people in, and
21 introduced me to them. I can't remember.
22 Q. Okay. So in addition to wanting to meet financial
23 investors and recommend minority contractors, what other
24 issues would he talk about to your clients with, or what other
25 things would he want from them?

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14:33:00 1 A. That's about it.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. As far as I can remember.
4 Q. Getting back to what happened to Mr. Fisher and your
5 statement that -- paraphrasing -- it got messed around, did
6 you ever question Mr. Hill about why he did that, or why that
7 happened?
8 A. Being turned down?
9 Q. (Nodding head up and down.)
10 A. There was a while that I didn't even get a chance to
11 actually speak to Don. When I did, I asked him, I asked why
12 did you screw my client like that.
13 Q. What did Mr. Hill respond?
14 A. He smiled and went on.
14:33:47 15 Q. Did he ever say anything else to you?
16 A. No.
17 MR. MEACHAM: Thank you, ma'am.
18 I'll pass the witness.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Vital.
20 MR. VITAL: Yes, your Honor.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. VITAL:
23 Q. I think I just have one question briefly. I won't stay
24 there very long, because it's not my issue, but do you
25 personally know the ins and out of the ethical rules for

Vol 21 - 199
14:34:23 1 Dallas Code of Ethics?
3 Q. Do you know the in and outs of the code of ethics in the
4 City of Dallas?
5 A. All of them, no.
6 Q. Do you know that the city planning commissioner is an
7 unpaid position?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. So folks get to have outside employment?
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. And it's not wrong for the outside employment to be in
12 banking. Is that right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Or as a doctor or lawyer?
14:34:58 15 A. Right.
16 Q. And real estate is not off limits either, folks can
17 develop real estate in America. Is that correct?
18 A. Sure.
19 Q. If you develop real estate in America and you want to
20 bring some project to the table that you don't have the money
21 for, sometimes you need financial backing. Is that correct?
22 A. I'm sure.
23 Q. So if somebody like D'Angelo Lee wanted to develop real
24 estate in an unpaid position and he needed some financial
25 backing, it wouldn't be at all uncommon to ask for financial

Vol 21 - 200
14:35:31 1 support. Is that right?
2 A. You wouldn't ask for it at the same time.
3 Q. That wasn't my question.
4 My question was, in an unpaid position like the City Plan
5 Commission would it okay for him to ask for some financial
6 support to get some real estate projects off the ground?
7 Yes or no.
8 A. Could you repeat that again?
9 Q. Somebody else is going to address that. I'll move on.
10 But what you did tell this jury is that you don't know
11 all of the ethical rules and the City Code of Ethics in the
12 City of Dallas?
13 A. I definitely do not know all of them.
14 Q. Are you an ethics expert?
14:36:10 15 A. No, I'm not.
16 Q. Okay. Now, we heard a lot of talk about James Fantroy.
17 Is that senior?
18 A. Are you talking to me?
19 Q. Yes, ma'am.
20 A. No. I thought you were talking about documents, so -- I
21 mean, yeah.
22 Q. No, I just have a legal pad. That's all I got.
23 A. All right. Okay.
24 Q. Is it senior?

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14:36:43 1 Q. Because he had a son?
2 A. (No response.)
3 Q. Are you -- do you know what I'm talking about?
4 A. Well, he's a senior. Mr. Fantroy is a senior.
5 Q. Then I guess what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to make
6 sure we know exactly who we're talking about?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. You mentioned James Fantroy.
9 My question was, is that senior?
10 A. In what context are you talking? At the council?
11 Q. Are we talking about the James Fantroy who's not on the
12 face of this earth anymore?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. James Fantroy, Sr. Is that correct?
14:37:32 15 A. (No response.)
16 Q. Is that the man's name? He was on your calendar. I'm
17 just trying to find out.
18 A. On the calendar? The one on the council?
19 Q. This is very important, because what I'm trying to figure
20 out is if you know this man well enough to tell this jury
21 whether he was ever charged with a crime by the government
22 prosecutors in this case?
23 A. No, he was not.
24 Q. But we heard an awful lot about James Fantroy, Sr. by the
25 government prosecutors on your direct examination, did we not?

Vol 21 - 202
14:38:09 1 A. Yes, you did.
2 Q. You didn't get charged with a crime in this case? I
3 think that's what you told this jury. Is that right?
4 A. I was never being charged for a crime.
5 Q. That's exactly right, because Mr. Meacham told you
6 verbally that you didn't have to worry about that. Is that
7 fair? Is that what he told you?
8 A. (No response.)
9 Q. This -- Mr. Meacham, did he tell you that?
10 A. The other day he did.
11 Q. But he didn't put that in writing? Is that in writing
12 somewhere?
13 A. No, I was never being charged with anything, sir.
14 Q. Do you know if Mr. Meacham ever told Mr. Fantroy -- or if
14:38:54 15 there is any verbal agreement anywhere with Mr. Fantroy that
16 Mr. Fantroy was not going to be charged?
17 Just like they communicated that to you, do you know if
18 they told Mr. Fantroy that?
19 A. I wasn't a part of Mr. Fantroy's meeting.
20 Q. But what we know is that Mr. Fantroy was never charged in
21 this case, and what this jury doesn't know is that Mr. Fantroy
22 wasn't charged in this case without the benefit of folks
23 telling him not to worry about it like they told you. Is that
24 correct?
25 A. That's incorrect.

Vol 21 - 203
14:39:26 1 Q. So you were present in a meeting with these government
2 prosecutors told Mr. Fantroy --
3 A. No.
4 Q. So you are not privy to any discussions between these
5 prosecutors, or the lack thereof. Is that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You're not privy to it. Is that right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You're not?
10 A. I'm not privy to who they talked to.
11 Q. Or who they don't talk to. Is that correct?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. But what we do know is that without the benefit of
14 immunity, or some non-prosecution agreement that we have not
14:40:00 15 seen, these government prosecutors have not chosen to charge a
16 man that they keep bringing up in this courtroom.
18 A. Mr. Fantroy is dead. I'm not following your question.
19 Q. Can we let him rest in peace?
20 MR. MEACHAM: Objection to the argumentative nature
21 of the question.
22 THE COURT: That's sustained.
23 Counsel, move on, please. That's out of order.
24 Go ahead and move on.
25 MR. VITAL: I do have some more questions on this

Vol 21 - 204
14:40:28 1 point.
2 THE COURT: I didn't tell you you couldn't ask
3 additional questions. I said you couldn't ask that question.
4 BY MR. VITAL:
5 Q. The reason I'm asking -- I'm asking you these questions
6 is because I'm trying to figure out if you know that in
7 addition to not being charged with a crime in this case before
8 he deceased, that Mr. Fantroy is not even named as an
9 unindicted co-conspirator of these defendants in this case.
10 Did you know that?
11 MR. MEACHAM: Your Honor, I object to the
12 argumentative nature.
14 You may answer.
14:41:05 15 BY MR. VITAL:
16 Q. Did you know that?
17 A. Know what?
18 Q. Let me give it to you again.
19 Did you hear my question?
20 A. I would like for you to repeat it so I can understand
21 what you are saying.
22 Q. I'm glad to repeat it.
23 A. Come on.
24 (Laughter)
25 THE COURT: Mr. Vital, go ahead or I'll repeat it

Vol 21 - 205
14:41:25 1 for you.
2 MR. VITAL: I'm fine if you repeat it. I just want
3 to make sure the witness understands the question.
4 THE COURT: Go ahead.
5 BY MR. VITAL:
6 Q. Is it not true that Mr. Fantroy, who is continuously
7 named in this courtroom by these government prosecutors, in
8 addition to not being charged by these prosecutors in
9 connection with these contracts that they're talking about,
10 Mr. Fantroy is not even an unindicted co-conspirator in this
11 case. Is that correct?
12 MR. MEACHAM: Objection, calls for a legal
13 conclusion.
14 THE COURT: All right. If you know, you may answer.
14:41:58 15 A. I don't know what he's charged with. I don't know if he
16 was charged with anything.
17 Q. Or you don't know if he wasn't charged with anything, or
18 even named in the indictment as conspiring allegedly with
19 these people in the courtroom. Is that correct?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Let's talk about August 16, 2004 to August 12, 2004.
22 August 12, 2004 is when you met at the Original House of
23 Pancakes on Lemmon.
25 Q. October 12, 2004?

Vol 21 - 206
14:42:51 1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Is that right?
3 A. I mean, can you give me the calendar so I can make sure
4 I'm answering correctly?
5 Q. But you did meet -- I'm trying to just establish that you
6 did meet with Don Hill sometime in October, you said?
7 A. Two weeks before the vote, yes. It was he and -- you
8 want to know who all was there?
9 Q. No, ma'am.
10 THE COURT: Just answer the questions he's asking
11 you.
12 BY MR. VITAL:
13 Q. No. What I'm trying to figure out is, there was a
14 meeting before then on August 16, 2004.
14:43:20 15 Do you remember Mr. Meacham talking to you about that?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What meetings took place in between there between you and
20 Don Hill?
21 A. There were lots of meetings, sir.
22 Q. I'm -- I'm -- I know, but I'm trying to figure out how
23 many meetings there were.
24 Between August 16th, the one you talked about, and
25 August 12th at the Pancake House?

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14:43:50 1 A. October 12th?
2 Q. October 12, yeah.
3 A. And October 12th?
4 Q. How many meetings in between there did you have with Don
5 Hill regarding Bill Fisher?
6 A. Now, you have to understand that we had many projects
7 that were before the council.
8 Q. Yes, ma'am.
9 A. Prior to any -- every item that's before the council
10 there's a meeting with all council members. Okay?
11 Let's establish that, number one.
12 If there is one in a council person's district, then
13 there are several other meetings with -- we would have
14 additional meetings with them.
14:44:26 15 So there were numerous meetings that were held with them.
16 Q. So I guess what I'm trying to ask you is how many
17 meetings did you have during that time frame between
18 August 16, 2004 and October 12, 2004 with Don Hill that
19 pertains to Bill Fisher?
20 A. If I took a guess, there are over ten. Yes, there were
21 over ten.
22 Q. Do you know everything that goes on in the mind of Bill
23 Fisher?
25 Q. You don't, do you?

Vol 21 - 208
14:45:19 1 A. No.
2 Q. And that's -- it's fair to say that you don't know
3 everything that goes on in the mind of anybody in this
4 courtroom including my client, Sheila Hill, or perhaps Don
5 Hill. Is that correct?
6 A. I'm not a mind reader.
7 Q. Okay. So there could be lots of factors and
8 considerations that folks are going through when they're
9 considering various items that they might not communicate. Is
10 that true?
11 A. Elected officials communicate how they feel about their
12 cases, yes.
13 Q. I guess what I'm saying is, elected officials, just like
14 anybody else, can have any number of factors of things running
14:45:56 15 through their minds that they might not articulate. Is that
16 correct?
17 A. I think that's fair.
18 MR. VITAL: May we have BP-37, please.
19 BY MR. VITAL:
20 Q. Do you know what the housing department is?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell the jury based upon your extensive
23 experience what the housing department is?
24 MR. MEACHAM: I was going to object to another
25 witness being asked what the housing department is.

Vol 21 - 209
14:46:35 1 THE COURT: I don't think we need another witness to
2 tell us what the housing department is.
3 MR. VITAL: I think that's fair.
4 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
5 BY MR. VITAL:
6 Q. The housing department and the City of Dallas, among
7 other things, deals with affordable housing tax credit
8 projects such as the projects of your client Bill Fisher. Is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I think I even saw on your calendar that you know
12 Mr. Killingsworth. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you know that in this very time frame that we're
14:47:17 15 talking about in October that the city council was briefed by
16 the housing department on some new factors or criteria that
17 came into play right around this very time period where you
18 said -- or I think Mr. Meacham said Don started to go
19 sideways?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you knew about these new criteria?
23 A. I know that they had a briefing, and different things was
24 stated.
25 Q. Do you know what happened at that briefing?

Vol 21 - 210
14:47:47 1 A. Everything?
2 Q. Yes, ma'am.
3 A. Not everything.
4 Q. Do you know whether there were any new criteria issued
5 for competing projects within one mile?
6 A. That was the issue that everybody was concerned about,
7 about competing projects within one mile.
8 Q. I think my question was a little bit more specific than
9 that.
10 My question is, do you know what the criteria were that
11 the housing department briefed the city council on regarding
12 tax credit projects within one mile?
13 A. I can't remember everything that was discussed. I was in
14 and out of this briefing.
14:48:31 15 Q. Can you give me one of the factors?
16 A. One of the things, if I'm not mistaken, was at this
17 particular meeting they were talking about having too many tax
18 credit projects in the Southern Sector.
19 Is that what you are speaking of?
20 Q. No. No. I guess I'm just asking you if you can name for
21 this jury in this time frame -- in the October time frame --
22 MR. VITAL: If we could, before I ask this new
23 question, I think we might need Government's Exhibit 2003.
24 BY MR. VITAL:
25 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?

Vol 21 - 211
14:49:24 1 A. I mean, this is my first time seeing this one. I
2 probably saw it today down there.
3 Q. This is Government's Exhibit 2003, and it's true that the
4 first time you saw this document is today. Is that correct?
5 A. This one being presented as this kind of evidence or down
6 at city hall?
7 Q. I'm asking you if you have ever seen this document
8 before, before today?
9 A. I don't think so.
10 Q. Before I showed you this document in front of this jury
11 I'm asking if you have ever seen this document before?
12 A. I have seen many documents at city hall at different
13 briefings. The thing that concerns me here is the exact date
14 right now.
14:50:06 15 Q. So is it true -- I guess what I'm trying to get a yes or
16 no or I don't know about is if it's true that the first time
17 you have seen this document, Government's Exhibit 2003, is me
18 showing it to you right now in front of this jury?
19 A. I'm not sure.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know if this document introduced some new
21 criteria that the housing department introduced the previous
22 month in September?
23 A. What was the question again?
24 Q. Do you know whether this document, Government's Exhibit
25 2003, introduces -- I'm going to give it to you a little bit

Vol 21 - 212
14:51:00 1 more specific -- introduces to this committee of the city
2 council some new criteria that had not been a part of the
3 rules of the game as it pertains to tax credit projects?
4 A. I guess my only hesitancy in answering that question,
5 there was some things that came up at -- it was in the
6 briefing as well as at council on --
7 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, I object to the
8 nonresponsive answer.
9 THE COURT: If you can't answer the question the way
10 it's framed, just explain that to counsel, but you are
11 required to answer the question as asked.
12 A. I can't explain it the way you want me to explain.
13 BY MR. VITAL:
14 Q. You can't explain it the way I have asked it. Is that
14:51:47 15 correct?
16 A. I guess.
17 Q. I guess what I'll ask again with Government's Exhibit
18 2003 on the screen, as I did when BP-37 was on the screen, if
19 you can give this jury in this relevant time frame when Don
20 allegedly was going sideways at least one criterion that the
21 housing department came up with that may have pertained to
22 your client's competing projects with Brian Potashnik?
23 A. As far as distance within the same?
24 Q. Yes, ma'am.
25 A. Those distances.

Vol 21 - 213
14:52:21 1 Q. What were the criteria that council members were given
2 guidance on by the housing department to consider when you had
3 those projects like Memorial Park Townhomes and Rosemont at
4 Laureland competing within one mile?
5 A. (No response.)
6 Q. Do you know any of the criteria?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. Do you know if Don Hill knew about these criteria?
9 A. I don't know.
10 MR. VITAL: Can we go back to BP -- before we go
11 back to BP-37, let's stay with Government's Exhibit 2003.
12 BY MR. VITAL:
13 Q. If Don wasn't at this meeting do you know if he still
14 knew from his interactions with council and the housing
14:53:09 15 department that the rules of the game had changed and that
16 there were now criteria on the road map that possibly didn't
17 exist back in March of 2004?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Now --
20 MR. VITAL: Now, if we could go back to BP-37,
21 please.
22 If we can have the second page.
23 BY MR. VITAL:
24 Q. Before I ask a question about the second page of BP-37,
25 can you tell this jury whether Don Hill was at this

Vol 21 - 214
14:53:48 1 briefing?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Were you at this briefing?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Was Bill Fisher at this briefing?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Did this briefing have criteria -- or address criteria
8 that are relevant to why certain tax credit projects may or
9 may not have been approved?
11 Q. If you know off the top of your head.
12 A. I was just trying to read the document.
13 Q. That's fair.
14 A. (Witness peruses document.)
14:54:53 15 Q. Do you know? Do you have an answer?
17 Q. I'll try to give it to you again.
18 Do you know whether there are criteria in BP-37 that may
19 tell this jury why any member of the city council may have
20 approved or disapproved competing tax credit projects within
21 one mile, for instance, Rosemont at Laureland over Memorial
22 Park Townhomes?
23 A. I can't remember.
24 MR. VITAL: On this page -- BP-37, the top of page
25 2.

Vol 21 - 215
14:55:51 1 If we can highlight that, please, Ms. Christensen.
2 BY MR. VITAL:
3 Q. Do you see your clients -- any of your clients' projects
4 listed on this page?
5 MR. MEACHAM: I object again to the relevance of
6 going through this.
7 THE COURT: That's overruled. You may answer that.
8 A. Yes.
9 BY MR. VITAL:
10 Q. Can you tell this jury which projects are your clients'
11 projects?
12 A. Pecan Grove. I think Provident at Village Fair.
13 Q. I think that was Backes.
14 A. That was my client also.
14:56:26 15 Q. Oh, okay.
16 A. Remember when we started out it was all Backes?
17 Q. Let me be specific.
18 Can you tell me which are the Bill Fisher projects?
19 A. Memorial Park Townhomes, Pecan Grove Townhomes, Dallas
20 West Village.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know what are the Brian Potashnik projects
22 on this slide?
23 A. I think the other ones.
24 Q. All the ones on the -- under DHFC projects?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 216
14:57:01 1 Q. Yes? Like Cherrycrest Villas, Rosemont at Scyene,
2 Rosemont at Laureland?
3 A. Yes. And my only challenge here is I remember more
4 things by the street. So that's why -- as opposed to as I
5 think you understood that from before, I do know that he had
6 some, and whether they were in South Dallas in Leo Chaney's
7 district, further in Pleasant Grove, then over in Oak Cliff
8 having the two there. One that was being proposed in
9 Mr. Fantroy's district, and one in Don Hill's.
10 Q. I guess the question I'm going to ask you now does not
11 require you to know which are the Brian Potashnik projects,
12 but I guess I want to ask you in terms of why projects may
13 have been approved or disapproved on October 27, 2004, if you
14 know whether it made a difference, or whether certain
14:58:08 15 projects -- projects got preference or priority if they were
16 approved -- or if they were Dallas Housing Finance Corporation
17 projects versus Texas Department of Housing projects?
18 MR. MEACHAM: Objection, repetitious.
19 THE COURT: I'm going to give you some leeway here.
20 You may proceed. Overruled.
21 A. You want my opinion?
22 (No response.)
23 A. Do you want my opinion?
24 BY MR. VITAL:
25 Q. I want you --

Vol 21 - 217
14:58:34 1 A. Because, you know, it's coming back to me now, because
2 let me tell you something. There was preference given, in my
3 opinion, to Brian Potashnik's projects. But -- and when it
4 was --
5 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. Wait.
6 MR. VITAL: I guess it's a nonresponsive objection
7 to the question.
8 THE COURT: Go ahead.
9 BY MR. VITAL:
10 Q. Let me give you the question again.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 (Laughter)
13 Q. I guess what I want to know, and I want you to tell this
14 jury, is not what your opinion is.
14:59:03 15 A. Oh, really. First you wanted my opinion.
16 Q. No. I wanted to -- I asked you whether you knew if there
17 were any criteria that addressed whether DHFC projects get a
18 preference or a priority over TDHCA projects?
19 Do you know if that -- if that's in the criteria issued
20 by the housing department given to the city council at this
21 briefing?
22 A. I know Jerry Killingsworth came up with some briefing
23 that separated out those projects. I can't remember all those
24 details.
25 Q. That's fair.

Vol 21 - 218
14:59:59 1 So what I guess you don't know is whether Don Hill, Laura
2 Miller or any other member of the Dallas city council was told
3 by the housing department -- or got guidance from the housing
4 department about priority or preference as it pertains to who
5 issued the bonds?
6 A. No, I wasn't aware of their briefing.
7 Q. I think I asked you whether you had any meeting with Don
8 Hill between August 16, 2004 and October 12, 2004.
9 Do you recall me asking you that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And -- and I thought that you didn't have a specific
12 recollection on the number of meetings. Is that fair?
13 A. I told you that we talked. There were numerous meetings.
14 We had meetings, either one-on-one meetings -- I mean, like
15:01:21 15 personal meetings or even talking to them on the phone. So
16 there were numerous meetings. We were always being updated.
17 Q. Do you know how many meetings you had?
18 THE COURT: You have covered that, Counsel.
19 MR. VITAL: Well, let's go over how many meetings
20 you had.
21 BY MR. VITAL:
22 Q. I'm showing you the calendar of Don Hill, Government's
23 Exhibit 668, and this is his calendar for September 3, 2003
24 (sic).
25 Do you see your name there?

Vol 21 - 219
15:01:56 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Kathy Nealy, meeting at Crayton's with D'Angelo Lee and
3 Bill Fisher?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Do you recall that meeting?
6 A. Yes.
7 THE COURT: Is that 2003?
8 MR. VITAL: 2004.
9 THE COURT: You said 2003.
10 MR. VITAL: I stand corrected.
11 THE COURT: I just want the record to be clear.
12 MR. VITAL: Yes, I appreciate it.
13 BY MR. VITAL:
14 Q. 2004.
15:02:36 15 All right. Would you agree with me that council member
16 Don Hill is an important man or was an important man in 2004
17 or he may have thought so?
18 A. Sure. He was elected. Elected official.
19 Q. He was a busy guy. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As a busy guy, just like you, he would rely on his
22 calendar to tell him where to go and whom to meet. Is that
23 correct?
24 A. That's the way the council runs.
25 Q. So what I would like to do is instead of running you

Vol 21 - 220
15:03:08 1 through page by page in front of the jury, I'll take you his
2 calendar, and I would like you to flip through there to
3 refresh your memory about how many times you possibly met with
4 Don Hill between October 16, 2004 and October 12, 2004 (sic).
5 A. If I could just --
6 THE COURT: Counsel, if you have directed a question
7 to the witness, stay there so she can answer.
8 A. Now, if I can -- because this question -- does he have a
9 calendar?
10 BY MR. VITAL:
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Every Wednesday that they have council I was -- if I was
13 down there, you know, you always do a pull-aside with council
14 people. So it might not be on this calendar, but when I was
15:03:58 15 down there I would always talk to him. I also called. So we
16 talked on the phone many times. I get paid by the hour, so I
17 try to talk a lot of times like attorneys do.
18 (Laughter)
19 MR. VITAL: I object to that, your Honor.
21 BY MR. VITAL:
22 Q. Touche.
23 To the point that we're talking about, I guess what I'm
24 trying to figure out is, you know a number of things and you
25 have testified to a number of things in front of this jury,

Vol 21 - 221
15:04:32 1 but there are also a number of things that we have established
2 at this point that during the relevant period you did not
3 know. Is that fair?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Because none of us know everything?
6 A. That's right.
7 THE COURT: Are you coming back?
8 MR. VITAL: Yes, your Honor, I was getting some
9 notes.
10 May I have Government's Exhibit 1589, please.
11 THE COURT: I don't know what you're wanting. Which
12 do you want?
13 MR. VITAL: Government's 1589.
14 THE COURT: That's fine.
15:05:48 15 BY MR. VITAL:
16 Q. Okay. All right. Do you know what an official action
17 item of the City of Dallas is?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This official action item pertains to your client's
20 Memorial Park Townhomes project, otherwise called by you his
21 Laureland project.
22 When I say "your client," I'm talking about Bill Fisher.
23 Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This is the project that was competing against Brian

Vol 21 - 222
15:06:16 1 Potashnik's Rosemont at Laureland project, which was right
2 across the street. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I think this is the one where you told Mr. Meacham
5 that there was going to be some mixed use on the property?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you told the jury that the mixed use involved homes
8 that were not going to be matchbox homes, but would actually
9 have some fairly good square footage to them. Is that
10 correct?
11 A. 15,000 square foot.
12 Q. Would not look the same like you just cut them and
13 dropped them in there?
14 A. Not a cookie cutter.
15:06:54 15 Q. Something like you would see if you were in Plano, some
16 good product as opposed to just throwing something in a
17 community. Is that right?
18 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Now, I guess what I want to ask you about this project is
20 on the multi-family side it was going to be just a traditional
21 tax credit apartment townhome concept.
22 It's very nice what Bill Fisher builds, correct?
23 A. This was going to be a townhome, which is different.
24 There is the -- most of their properties, say for like the one
25 at Village Fair or Simpson Stuart, that's the multi-family,

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15:07:33 1 which is a townhome-type project.
2 Q. What's the townhome?
3 A. These were going to be townhomes.
4 Q. What does that mean?
5 A. They were going to be -- it wasn't going to be a
6 multi-family unit. They were townhomes. Like condos,
7 townhomes, single-family apartments.
8 Q. Yes. But they were going to be for rent?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But they were going to have the facade or the look of a
11 townhome?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And on the other side -- or on the other use there were
14 going to be these houses that were going to be good houses for
15:08:14 15 the community. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I think that's what you all conceptualized, and
18 earlier in 2004 you gave to Don Hill the concept of what these
19 homes would look like. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Of course, that would have excited the council member
22 because what's woefully lacking in the southern part of Dallas
23 are nice looking homes. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We could -- we could -- the community could have a whole

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15:08:43 1 lot more of those. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So that was something that he was very excited about, as
4 were you and Bill Fisher. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you all, I assume, were pretty diligent in trying to
7 make this a reality, were you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So as of the October time frame when you were talking to
10 Don Hill you were able to produce a contractual commitment
11 with a builder who was actually going to build those homes
12 that you all conceptualized?
14 Q. I guess I was saying since you were so excited about it?
15:09:18 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You all really wanted this to happen and you promised it
17 to Don Hill in the October time frame when you are talking to
18 Don and he's going sideways, did you give him the contracts
19 that you had with the developer and the homebuilder, the
20 person that was actually going to build the homes?
21 A. I don't know if we gave him the contract, but we did have
22 a lady to come up who was a developer out in the Duncanville
23 area, and was talking that she would be the one to develop.
24 Q. Where were the contracts?
25 A. There was.

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15:09:51 1 Q. You -- you -- you --
2 A. Let me --
3 MR. VITAL: Objection, nonresponsive.
4 THE COURT: The question is where are the contracts.
5 If there needs additional clarification, counsel for the
6 government can ask you.
7 Please stay a little bit back from the microphone.
8 BY MR. VITAL:
9 Q. I guess I'll give you an easier question I'll withdraw
10 that one.
11 You didn't give Don Hill any contracts with a homebuilder
12 who was going to build this concept that you all had dreamt
13 (sic) up. Is that fair?
15:10:17 15 Q. You didn't give him a contract?
16 A. No, we didn't.
17 Q. So on October 27, 2004 without contracts of this concept
18 that you all had dreamed about, but not made concrete in a
19 contract document, what Don Hill did at the city council is he
20 moved to close the public hearing and recommended that the
21 application be denied without prejudice.
22 Is that what's in the document here towards the bottom?
23 A. Yes. But that wasn't a dream.
25 THE COURT: Just answer the question, please.

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15:11:06 1 Go ahead with your next question.
2 BY MR. VITAL:
3 Q. Do you know the effect of denying an application without
4 prejudice?
5 A. (No response.)
6 Q. Do you?
7 A. You want me to explain it to you?
8 Q. Okay. So is it possible that what this means and what
9 Don Hill was thinking about is that guys can come back at any
10 point in time without a two-year limitation once you had a
11 contract in place to actually make this concept a reality?
12 A. No, we wouldn't have been able to do that because he
13 approved the one across the street.
14 Q. Well, isn't it true that those criteria are not hard and
15:11:50 15 fast, but are simply guidance to the council?
16 A. A tax credit property has nothing to do with the homes.
17 That was just something that this was a --
19 THE COURT: Sustained. Just answer the question,
20 please.
21 BY MR. VITAL:
22 Q. Isn't it true that what you could do at a later point in
23 time, once you had everything in a row regarding this entire
24 mixed use that you were proposing, you could come back because
25 he denied it without prejudice, wouldn't have to wait two

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15:12:23 1 years to have this concept approved once there were contracts
2 in place to show folks that possibly Bill Fisher can deliver
3 what he promised?
4 A. I disagree with what you said.
5 Q. Did Bill Fisher promise some homes?
6 A. As part of the site plan, yes.
7 Q. But Bill Fisher did not deliver contracts, did he?
8 A. We didn't have to.
9 Q. That's wasn't my question.
10 Did he show Don Hill that I got some locked down under
11 contract?
12 A. We never were asked to provide a contract.
13 Q. Did you do that?
14 A. We weren't asked about a contract, sir.
15:13:02 15 Q. Did you know -- did you know that Don Hill knew that you
16 didn't have a contract?
17 A. No, I did not. He asked us to bring the person.
19 THE COURT: Just listen to the question, and answer
20 it as best you can.
21 THE WITNESS: I'm doing the best I can, Judge.
22 BY MR. VITAL:
23 Q. Is -- so is it fair that what we're doing right now in
24 this courtroom is we're talking about some factors, some
25 additional items that you weren't asked about on direct

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15:13:39 1 examination that pertain to what was going on in the relevant
2 time period?
4 Q. Were you asked these questions by the government?
5 A. About what?
6 Q. About dreams without contracts --
7 A. I never heard of dreams until today.
8 Q. And criteria that may have been floating around in folks'
9 head who were charged with crimes in this case.
10 Did they ask you about that?
11 A. We talked about what was required of us.
12 MR. VITAL: Objection, your Honor, nonresponsive.
13 THE COURT: That's overruled. You may answer that
14 question.
15:14:14 15 BY MR. VITAL:
16 Q. Go ahead.
17 THE COURT: Go ahead. You may answer that.
18 A. We were asked -- I was asked during that two-week time
19 period what would be required -- what we were required to do.
20 We were asked to bring financial statements, we were
21 asked to bring the individuals who would be the developers of
22 that particular project, and we went out and got those people
23 and they came down for an appointment.
24 Q. After that happened did you know that Don Hill determined
25 that Bill Fisher didn't have contracts in place to build these

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15:14:51 1 homes?
2 A. He never told us that.
3 Q. Does he -- does -- is he obligated -- does he have a
4 contract to tell you everything?
5 A. (No response.)
6 Q. Did you live in District 5?
7 A. I live in District 5.
8 Q. Do you still live in District 5?
9 A. Not right now, but at that time I did.
10 Q. Isn't it true that you're not the only person that lives
11 in District 5?
12 A. What do you mean?
13 Q. At the time you weren't the only person that lived in
14 District 5, are you? Or were you?
15:15:16 15 A. What is your question?
16 Q. I think my -- you answered my question. There are
17 thousands of people who actually lived in District 5 back in
18 2004. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Don Hill's obligation was not only to you, but the entire
21 district. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it fair that just because you have contracts with
24 wealthy developers that your vote as a constituent of District
25 5 was not more important than anybody else in District 5? Is

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15:16:07 1 that fair?
2 A. Could you repeat?
3 Q. I guess what I'm trying to cut at is, you did not have
4 any specific entitlement to any information from public
5 officials just because you had contracts with wealthy folks,
6 did you?
7 A. No.
8 THE COURT: How many longer do you have, Counsel?
9 MR. VITAL: I bet about five or ten minutes.
10 THE COURT: We will take a recess until 3:30.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: All rise for the jury, please.
13 (Brief recess.)
14 THE COURT: Before we bring in the jury, how long
15:34:46 15 will you be?
16 MR. VITAL: Ten or fifteen minutes.
17 THE COURT: How long, Mr. Steinke?
18 MR. STEINKE: An hour, maybe less.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Greene?
20 MR. GREENE: Thirty minutes, forty minutes.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. JACKSON: Maybe an hour and a half.
23 MR. BUSCH: Your Honor, may we excuse or send home
24 the witness who we have standing by?
25 THE COURT: We're going to have a discussion about

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15:35:06 1 the entire lineup for the rest of the trial after we excuse
2 the jury, so everybody be prepared for that.
3 I don't think that at the pace we're going we're going to
4 finish on the scheduled date. We are going to finish on the
5 date scheduled. I'm going to do what we need to do to do so.
6 Y'all be thinking about that.
7 MS. DECKARD: Is that comment directed to anyone in
8 particular?
9 THE COURT: Everybody.
10 MS. DECKARD: Including me?
11 THE COURT: No. Ms. Deckard, you're absolutely
12 right. Thank you for correcting me. It was not directed to
13 you.
15:36:48 15 THE COURT: All right. Be seated.
16 Mr. Vital.
17 MR. VITAL: Can I move to admit BP-54. It's an
18 e-mail from Bill Fisher to folks on the city staff.
19 THE COURT: Any objection?
20 MR. MEACHAM: No objection.
21 THE COURT: It's admitted.
22 MR. VITAL: Could we have it on the screen, please.
23 If we can highlight the entire exhibit, if we can.
24 Can we get the entire exhibit.
25 BY MR. VITAL:

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15:38:01 1 Q. Is that -- can you see that -- or focus on different
2 parts of that e-mail, Ms. Nealy?
3 A. Excuse me?
4 Q. Can you read that?
5 A. Yeah. I lean over to read it.
6 Q. That's fine.
7 Isn't it true that this is an e-mail that Bill Fisher
8 sent to Doug Dykman at the bottom there, October 14, 2004?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. VITAL: Then if we can, Ms. Christensen, just
11 focus on the top half of the e-mail so it will be a little
12 larger.
13 MR. VITAL: Thank you.
14 BY MR. VITAL:
15:38:44 15 Q. Do you see that Bill Fisher in this e-mail is addressing
16 Doug Dykman regarding a positive resolution of fairness?
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I'm going to read to you the second paragraph of this
20 document.
21 It says, "I suggest to you," do you see where I'm
22 reading?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "I suggest to you that you are that natural leader."
25 Do you see that?

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15:39:10 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "In lieu of tearing the city -- in lieu of tearing the
3 council apart with the politics of Southwest Housing and
4 Odyssey/Provident, broker a fair distribution of the
5 developments. Here are my suggestions.
6 "One deal Leon/PRA.
7 "Three deals for Southwest Housing.
8 "And two deals for Odyssey."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you see in this e-mail that Bill Fisher uses the word
12 "politics."
13 Do you see that?
15:39:55 15 Q. It talks about the politics of Southwest Housing and
16 Odyssey-Provident.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There were a lot of politics between your client and
20 Brian Potashnik in this time frame. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And politics is what happens down at city hall. Is that
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Day in and day out the city council deals with the

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15:40:18 1 approval or disapproval of various items, but what goes on
2 down there is politics. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You see that was your client's view at the time in
5 October 14, 2004 that what was going on was just politics. Is
6 that right?
7 A. (No response.)
8 Q. He said, "In lieu of tearing the council apart with the
9 politics of Southwest Housing and Odyssey-Provident."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. I need to explain.
12 Q. So you can't answer my question yes or no?
13 THE COURT: I need to explain.
14 A. No, I need to explain.
15:40:55 15 BY MR. VITAL:
16 Q. Is it fair that the document says politics?
17 A. The document, yes.
18 Q. Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
19 And it says further down in the document, "Here's how I
20 would ask you to seek a consensus on the projects."
21 Do you see where I'm reading?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where it says Southwest Housing it says Cherrycrest
24 Villas. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.

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15:41:21 1 Q. And if you can recall, can you tell this jury whether
2 Cherrycrest Villas went to Brian Potashnik?
4 Q. Did the city council approve Cherrycrest Villas for
5 Southwest Housing?
6 A. Which one was Cherrycrest Villas?
7 Q. It was a senior project. If you know.
8 A. No. No. It's the name that confuses me.
9 Q. So you don't know -- I'm not --
10 A. No. No, sir. It's -- I've always known from the very
11 beginning these locations, I know them by locations.
12 Is this the one in Pleasant Grove or South Dallas?
13 Q. I'm not sure.
14 I have a map.
15:42:10 15 Cherrycrest, I think it's in District 7.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So we'll just hold that up just in case I need it as a
18 reference.
19 Cherrycrest Villas went to Southwest Housing?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That was in?
22 A. Leo Chaney.
23 Q. That's right.
24 So your client in BP-54 says with respect to what's
25 happening in this time frame, here's my proposal, let's just

Vol 21 - 236
15:42:43 1 give Cherrycrest Villas to Brian Potashnik.
2 Did he say that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That's what happened. Is that correct?
5 A. What really happened --
6 THE COURT: If you can't answer the question as
7 phrased, Ms. Nealy, just say that, and then counsel can ask
8 you a different question.
9 A. I can't say it yes or no.
10 BY MR. VITAL:
11 Q. Well, let's not -- let me step away from the document.
12 Don't think about the document, but to my question.
13 Did Brian Potashnik get Cherrycrest Villas approved?
14 A. Yes, he did. He got all of his projects approved.
15:43:28 15 Q. Is that true?
16 A. All -- he got all of them, the majority. He was getting
17 his approved and Bill Fisher was not getting his approved that
18 day. That's why he was doing this memo.
19 Q. Okay. That's what you wanted to get in. You got it in.
20 So did he get -- did Brian Potashnik get Cherrycrest
21 Villas?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what Bill Fisher also said in this e-mail to resolve
24 this politics let's just give Brian Potashnik Scyene --
25 Rosemont at Scyene.

Vol 21 - 237
15:44:02 1 Isn't that what happened?
2 A. I guess.
3 Q. Excuse me?
4 A. I guess.
5 Q. You guess yes or you guess no?
6 A. I guess yes.
7 Q. Isn't it also true that in addition to Cherrycrest and
8 Rosemont at Scyene, to resolve these politics between these
9 two wealthy developers, that the city council did exactly as
10 Bill Fisher proposed, and they gave him Rosemont at Laureland
11 too. Is that correct?
12 A. After they voted it down, yes. This was an alternative
13 that was presented.
14 Q. Okay. I guess I'm asking you did the city council do
15:44:44 15 exactly as Bill Fisher said in this e-mail, they gave him
16 Rosemont at Laureland. Is that right?
17 A. What day was this document?
18 Q. October 14th.
19 A. After the vote, right?
20 Q. Okay. Let me step away from the document again.
21 Let's not think about the document, because we have seen
22 the document. I guess I just need you to put a bow on top of
23 it, the city council did give Brian Potashnik Rosemont at
24 Laureland. Is that correct?

Vol 21 - 238
15:45:18 1 Q. Over Memorial Park Townhomes?
2 A. The one -- yes, they did.
3 Q. And your client was Odyssey. Is that correct?
4 A. Odyssey was one of my clients.
5 Q. And Odyssey is Bill Fisher?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what Bill Fisher proposed is just give Brian
8 Potashnik those three deals that the council actually approved
9 on October 27th. He said just give me Pecan Grove. That's
10 one of them he wanted, Pecan Grove, did he not?
11 A. That was part of it.
12 Q. What actually happened on this day is -- or on a later
13 date, November 10th, is that Bill Fisher actually got Homes of
14 Pecan Grove. Is that right?
15:46:15 15 A. After a delay.
16 Q. The delays weren't caused by Don Hill, were they?
17 A. No.
18 Q. The delay was because of Laura Miller. Isn't that
19 correct?
21 Q. Wasn't she questioning your client's finances?
22 A. Pecan Grove?
23 Q. Homes of Pecan Grove.
24 Let me try to refresh your memory.
25 You were at the October 27, 2004 council meeting?

Vol 21 - 239
15:46:37 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall Don Hill saying, oh, y'all are playing
3 procedural games on that.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. That's a yes?
7 A. Vaguely.
8 Q. He was saying the y'all was in addition to other people,
9 Laura Miller, were playing procedural games because he was
10 trying to get your client's deal approved, Homes of Pecan
11 Grove, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He wasn't successful on that date because they played
14 procedural games on him, and delayed it to November 10th. Is
15:47:07 15 that right?
16 A. It was delayed.
17 Q. It was delayed to November 10th. Is that correct?
18 A. I think that's the date.
19 Q. On November 10th it actually passed on Don Hill's motion,
20 did it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The day after your client did not give to the birthday
23 party. Is that correct?
24 A. I guess.
25 Q. Huh?

Vol 21 - 240
15:47:29 1 A. I guess.
2 Q. So although Bill Fisher was asked to give to the birthday
3 party on November 9 and he said no on your advise, the next
4 day Don did exactly what he wanted to do back on October 27th,
5 but couldn't do because Laura Miller played procedural games
6 on him, messing with your man's finances, or talking about
7 them, right?
8 A. Don Hill always said that he was going to pass Pecan
9 Grove.
10 Q. So that's what happened.
12 Q. The fact that Don Hill said he was always going to
13 approve Homes of Pecan Grove didn't change just because y'all
14 didn't give to his birthday party bash that he had downtown.
15:48:20 15 Is that right?
16 A. That date, no.
17 Q. Dallas West Village was ultimately approved after some
18 delays. Is that correct?
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. You don't know if it was approved?
21 A. I was not -- I was not -- I was basically fired at that
22 point. I was let go.
23 Q. You were let go?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That wasn't fair, was it?

Vol 21 - 241
15:48:48 1 A. No, it wasn't.
2 Q. Because you're a good consultant?
3 A. Excellent.
4 Q. So you don't know what happened with Dallas West Village.
5 Is that right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So if there were phone calls that this jury has heard
8 about Bill Fisher not living up to commitments to hire
9 African-American contractors, you wouldn't know anything about
10 that. Is that right?
11 A. About what now?
12 Q. About --
13 A. I was let go in January. Anything after that I was not
14 privy to.
15:49:13 15 Q. So I guess conversations that may have happened between
16 that day and May 2004 about your client -- your former client
17 Bill Fisher not using African-American contractors as he
18 committed to do, you wouldn't know anything about those
19 conversations?
20 A. Bill Fisher lived up to --
21 Q. I guess -- let me --
22 A. What date are you talking about? Because one point you
23 were talking about after.
24 Dallas West Village was after.
25 Q. There is an exhibit that I actually have that might be

Vol 21 - 242
15:49:51 1 helpful to illustrate the point I'm talking about.
2 Would you like me to put that in front of you?
3 A. That's fine.
4 Q. On this exhibit here it says Dallas West Village
5 commitments, not cash, Hill's motive, minority commitments,
6 community.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And on this document there is a telephone conversation
10 that is referenced here, and that's Government's Exhibit 5450,
11 is a telephone conversation on February 8, 2005 between Darren
12 Reagan and Allen McGill.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15:51:01 15 Q. Did you know anything about that conversation?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you wouldn't know if in that conversation Reagan said,
18 "But Bill asked me try to get this thing passed."
19 Then it says, "But I doubt" --
20 THE COURT: Excuse me. Wait a minute, please.
21 Objection.
22 MR. MEACHAM: My objection is to the foundation.
23 The witness has said she wasn't involved.
24 THE COURT: That's sustained. This witness is not
25 familiar with this.

Vol 21 - 243
15:51:26 1 BY MR. VITAL:
2 Q. So you don't know about any conversations that happened
3 regarding Bill Fisher not living up to commitments that he
4 made?
5 THE COURT: I sustained that objection. You asked
6 the question already.
7 MR. VITAL: Okay. May I have BP-57, please.
8 BY MR. VITAL:
9 Q. Have you ever seen this housing department document
10 before?
11 A. I'm sure I have.
12 MR. VITAL: Can we scroll down to agenda item 74.
13 BY MR. VITAL:
14 Q. Agenda item 74 on October 27, 2004 was Simpson Villas.
15:52:20 15 Is that correct?
16 A. 74 is Simpson Villas.
17 Q. Did you know that there was community opposition to that
18 project?
19 A. Simpson Villas, that wasn't my project.
20 Q. Yeah, that's right. It was Brian Potashnik's.
21 I'm asking if you knew that there was community
22 opposition to that project?
23 A. I thought y'all said I couldn't say anything if it was
24 hearsay.
25 (Laughter)

Vol 21 - 244
15:52:50 1 MR. VITAL: I tell you, these witnesses learn the
2 rules really fast, don't they.
3 Touche again. Double Touche.
4 I'm not going to let you get me a third time.
5 BY MR. VITAL:
6 Q. Okay. Let's stick to the document.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. But what the document says --
9 MR. MEACHAM: Hearsay objection from the government
10 to that question.
11 BY MR. VITAL:
12 Q. My question --
13 THE COURT: There is no hearsay objection. The
14 witness' objection is overruled.
15:53:17 15 Ask the question.
17 BY MR. VITAL:
18 Q. I guess what I want to focus on is a sentence in this
19 document, Ms. Nealy, that starts with city plan commissioner
20 Carol Brandon.
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You knew who Carol Brandon was, didn't you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Very bright, committed?

Vol 21 - 245
15:53:35 1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. City planning commissioner. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. She actually would communicate to the city council on
5 issues that pertain to her district, District 8. Is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This Simpson Villas, because the city planning
9 commissioner Carol Brandon is speaking on it, must have been
10 in District 8. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you see here that city planning commissioner Carol
13 Brandon has advised the housing department that following the
14 conclusion of the previous DHFC community meeting neighborhood
15:54:12 15 residents remained and reached a consensus of opposition to
16 this project.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know that one of the criteria spelled out in
20 BP-37 says that if there is not strong community support for
21 projects, it should be disapproved.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that's exactly what happened to Brian Potashnik's
25 deal. Is that correct?

Vol 21 - 246
15:54:39 1 A. (No response.)
2 Q. Simpson Villas was not approved?
3 A. If you say so.
4 Q. Even though Brian Potashnik apparently had given a
5 contract to what the government called my client, which was
6 the girlfriend -- she's actually the wife of Don Hill.
8 A. Oh, yeah.
9 Q. They have been married for three years.
10 A. I know the previous wife too.
11 Q. That's right. You know this one too. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can folks commit sins?
15:55:09 15 Q. Have you committed a sin before? Have you broken one of
16 the Ten Commandments?
17 A. There's not a person in the world --
18 THE COURT: Stop. Ms. Nealy, this is the rule in
19 court. When the judge talks, everybody else stops talking
20 Objection made by the questioning lawyer, not anyone else
21 on the prosecution.
22 MR. MEACHAM: Objection, relevance.
24 BY MR. VITAL:
25 Q. Jesus is not in this courtroom, is he?

Vol 21 - 247
15:55:30 1 THE COURT: All right. Counsel, move on, please.
2 The Court sua sponte instructs you to move on.
4 BY MR. VITAL:
5 Q. I guess my question is, did you know that apparently
6 although this contract was given to the wife -- the now wife
7 of Don Hill, who happens to be my client, did you know that
8 Don Hill still disapproved -- or voted to disapprove this
9 Simpson Villas project?
11 Q. Did you know that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know that on October 27th what Don Hill said at
14 the council meeting that you said you were at is that we're
15:56:14 15 going to go with the Homes of Pecan Grove and we're going to
16 withdraw Simpson Villas from consideration?
18 A. I know that the other one was passed.
19 Q. Okay. So notwithstanding any contract -- have you seen
20 any contract between Brian Potashnik and my client, Farrington
21 & Associates -- or Sheila Hill?
23 Q. Have you ever seen that contract?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You looked at it because the prosecution gave you a copy

Vol 21 - 248
15:56:46 1 of it. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But before the prosecution gave you a copy of it, you had
4 never seen it before?
5 A. Never.
6 Q. I guess my question is, notwithstanding that contract
7 document that they gave you, it's true that Brian Potashnik
8 did not get everything he wanted out of Don Hill? Is that
9 true?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Well, you do know that notwithstanding giving to the
12 birthday party that Homes of Pecan Grove was approve the next
13 day which competed against Simpson Villas, right?
14 A. Okay.
15:57:33 15 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, pass the witness.
17 Mr. Steinke.
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. STEINKE:
20 Q. Ms. Nealy, good afternoon. My name is Ted Steinke. I
21 represent Darren Reagan.
22 I don't believe you and I have ever met, have we?
23 A. I don't think so.
24 Q. Okay. When you were testifying about your background you
25 mentioned that among your zoning clients were Hillwood

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15:58:20 1 Development Company, and that in the recent past you had
2 worked for them on the American Airlines Center and Victory
3 Park.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that Darren Reagan assisted you
6 in getting that contract?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No?
9 Would you agree with me that people like Darren Reagan
10 and Lee Alcorn who championed the cause of minority businesses
11 ultimately led to you getting a contract like that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You would disagree with that?
14 A. Yes.
15:58:56 15 Can I explain?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I was a consultant -- I was one of the political
18 consultants that passed the arena election. Okay?
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. So from that I was retained on by Hillwood to be a zoning
21 consultant and do public affairs for them.
22 So I'm very familiar with the fair share agreement of
23 which you are referring to, but they were not a part of me
24 getting my contract.
25 Q. But you understand that Darren Reagan has for 20 years,

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15:59:34 1 among other things, championed the cause of minority
2 businesses, of HUBs, historically under used businesses, to be
3 given a chance to compete for business like that?
4 A. He's been supportive of this effort, yes.
5 Q. And you also mentioned that you were at one time -- maybe
6 still are -- an advisor to Ms. Coretta Scott King?
7 A. As you know, Ms. King is dead. And I was part of that --
8 I helped to do her funeral services.
9 Q. An advisor to her son?
10 A. I'm still one today.
11 Q. Okay. And you would agree with me that to the King
12 family civil rights was an important part of this country?
13 A. Still is today.
14 Q. Still is today.
16:00:23 15 Okay. I believe you also said that you worked on the
16 campaign of Darren Reagan?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. When he ran for city council?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were supporting him?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Even though he had this reputation in the community, you
23 still supported him?
24 A. It's called the less of two evils.
25 Q. I'm going to write that down.

Vol 21 - 251
16:00:56 1 MR. STEINKE: Could I have Government's Exhibit
2 1890, please.
3 BY MR. STEINKE:
4 Q. You discussed this on direct examination.
5 Do you recognize whose handwriting this is?
6 A. I believe it might be Willie Cothrum.
7 Q. Okay. All right. It's not yours?
8 A. No.
9 MR. STEINKE: And if we could have the second page,
10 please.
11 If you could highlight from the middle -- where it says
12 CDC from the middle down.
13 BY MR. STEINKE:
14 Q. At this meeting a CDC was discussed?
16:01:46 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is a CDC?
17 A. Community Development Corporation.
18 Q. You were aware that Bill Fisher routinely hired CDCs to
19 work on his projects, correct?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You weren't?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Have you had a number of discussions with the Federal
24 Bureau of Investigation on this case?
25 A. Yes.

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16:02:17 1 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the FBI that Bill Fisher
2 has a record of hiring community development corporations in
3 other developments?
4 A. We were talking -- at this particular -- I think we need
5 to look at the dates and times.
6 When we were talking about -- this was one of the first
7 contracts, and when we were talking about on Loop 12, that was
8 one of the first projects that I was involved with.
9 When we were talking about on Westmoreland, the one
10 that's over by Methodist Hospital.
11 Q. But this contract isn't even Bill Fisher's, is it? This
12 is Brian Potashnik's?
13 A. Bill Fisher was working for him then.
14 Q. Okay.
16:02:55 15 A. When we were talking about the one on Wheatland, which is
16 the one by Methodist Hospital, then that's when we were
17 talking about -- we were talking about CDCs and Bill Fisher.
18 Q. All right. But my question is, did you tell the FBI that
19 Bill Fisher has a record of hiring CDCs in other developments?
20 Yes or no.
21 A. That's not a yes or no question.
22 Q. Did you tell the FBI that Bill Fisher has a record of
23 hiring CDCs in other developments?
24 THE COURT: That does call for a yes or no, if you
25 can answer it, please.

Vol 21 - 253
16:03:38 1 The question is did you tell the FBI that, not whether
2 that is accurate or not.
3 A. I told -- so I can explain what I said?
4 THE COURT: You can say whether you said that, or
5 you said something other than that?
6 A. I said something similar to that.
7 BY MR. STEINKE:
8 Q. Something similar to that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Fair enough.
11 You testified that when Brian Potashnik brought up the
12 payment of $50,000 to the Reverend Johnson that you were
13 surprised?
14 A. Yes.
16:04:17 15 Q. Because in all of the other deals that you worked on
16 money had never been promised to a CDC?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you consider this $50,000 pledge to Reverend Johnson
19 to be a bribe?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And you see that it is going to be given as a consulting
22 fee to the CDC?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell the jury in your experience what role a CDC
25 plays in the zoning process?

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16:04:57 1 A. Their involvement in the community meeting.
2 Here what they were being asked to do was to help
3 identify tenants of the residents of this particular project
4 because of the previous history that it had at being a
5 drug-infected area. So that they wanted to make sure that
6 the -- I think clientele would be the wrong word, but the
7 residents would be pretty good residents.
8 Do you know what I mean? Good citizens.
9 Q. Reputable residents?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I believe you told the jury that the church's support was
12 critical in this area?
13 A. Yes. Because they were one of the neighbors.
14 MR. STEINKE: Now, could I have Government's Exhibit
16:05:49 15 1996, please.
16 BY MR. STEINKE:
17 Q. I believe this is the contract that you discussed on
18 direct examination?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the address of Kathy L. Nealy & Associates, you can
21 read it there on the screen.
22 Is that an office, or is that your residence?
23 A. That was my residence then.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. But it is not today.

Vol 21 - 255
16:06:14 1 Q. But you were working out of your home?
2 A. At that time, yes.
3 MR. STEINKE: If you could scroll down to capacity
4 and duties.
5 Thank you.
6 BY MR. STEINKE:
7 Q. Now, you were not a CDC, were you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You say in here that in the duties that you are going to
10 perform for in effect Bill Fisher, the first is leverage?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. What do you mean by leverage?
13 A. Leverage means many of the elected officials, I have
14 worked with them on various campaigns, I know various elected
16:06:57 15 and community leaders, so it's easy for me to -- I can make a
16 call and schedule a meeting for them so that the presentation
17 can be made.
18 Q. You have got access?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. It would be easier for you to get a return phone call
21 from a city councilman than it would be for me?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I don't have any access at city hall, so --

Vol 21 - 256
16:07:19 1 A. Everybody knows Ted Steinke.
2 THE COURT: We have already established that.
3 MR. STEINKE: Too many times for the judge.
4 THE COURT: All right. Let's not take advantage of
5 the opportunity. Let's just move along.
6 BY MR. STEINKE:
7 Q. By -- if by -- I'm just going to move on to something
8 else.
9 You also talk about garnering support for the
10 developments and the zoning proposals undertaken for the
11 client, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have a contract with Brian Potashnik or his
14 company, Southwest Housing?
16:08:03 15 A. No.
16 Q. So when you went to the meeting with the Reverand Johnson
17 back in 2001 you did not have a contract with Brian Potashnik
18 and Southwest Housing?
19 A. No. My contract was with Master Plan.
20 Q. Okay. All right. So you went there at their request?
22 MR. STEINKE: Could you go to the page -- I think
23 it's going to be the second page that lists the compensation.
24 Remuneration. That's perfect.
25 BY MR. STEINKE:

Vol 21 - 257
16:08:44 1 Q. In consideration for the services the client agrees to
2 pay you a rate of $175 per hour plus expenses, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. When your contractual relationship with Bill
5 Fisher ended in January of 2005, did he owe you money?
6 A. He still does today.
7 Q. How much does he owe you?
8 A. About $32,000.
9 Q. Okay. And in addition he agreed to pay a success fee of
10 $20,000 for each project that basically gets approved?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That would be approved by not only the plan commission,
13 but the Dallas city council, correct?
14 A. Yes.
16:09:37 15 Q. Okay. So because one of the things that you are hired to
16 do is to garner support for the project, it stands to reason,
17 doesn't it, that if the project doesn't get passed, you don't
18 get paid the success fee?
19 A. Not the success fee.
20 Q. All right. So would it be fair to say that you have a
21 financial interest in whether or not the Dallas City Council
22 passes these particular projects?
23 A. I get paid every month, so it's critical. I mean --
24 Q. But you don't get paid a success fee every month?
25 A. No. I only get paid by the hours that I work.

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16:10:20 1 Q. So in order -- regarding the $20,000 success fee, is it
2 fair to say that because your receipt of that depends upon
3 passage by the Dallas City Council that you have a financial
4 interest in that vote?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You have described the confrontational meeting at the
7 city council on August 27, 2003. You called it the huge
8 ruckus and the big debacle.
9 Then you testified that after that several other people
10 were brought into the team to discuss what do we do with the
11 Fantroy contract, and where do we go next, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And among those people were Carol Reed?
14 A. Uh-huh.
16:11:14 15 Q. You said an attorney came also.
16 Do you remember who that was?
17 A. Andy Siegel.
18 Q. Andy Siegel?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 THE COURT: Say yes or no.
21 A. Yes.
22 BY MR. STEINKE:
23 Q. And you said that in your mind if the contracts were
24 canceled, that you would lose the support of Fantroy on the
25 council?

Vol 21 - 259
16:11:38 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was this discussed in the meeting with Carol Reed and
3 Andy Siegel?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So everybody was talking about whether or not if they
6 continued with the contracts they would continue to keep
7 Fantroy's approval?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. And was it your recommendation that you keep
10 the contracts so that you keep Fantroy on board?
11 A. Everybody had the same conclusion. It wasn't just me.
12 Q. So Carol Reed agreed with you that in order to keep
13 Fantroy on board, let's continue the contracts.
14 That's your testimony?
16:12:19 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the attorney Andy Siegel was on board and said in
17 order to keep Fantroy, let's keep the contracts, correct?
18 A. Everybody was in agreement.
19 Q. Leon Backes, was he there too?
20 A. Leon Backes was there.
21 Q. So he was in agreement?
22 A. He was listening. It was a discussion -- it was a
23 discussion that we had. He was -- I mean, he had the
24 ultimate --
25 Q. But he agreed?

Vol 21 - 260
16:12:49 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. To keep the contracts?
4 Q. So if he displayed any kind of public outrage at the
5 contracts, that would be inconsistent with what he said at
6 this meeting, wouldn't it?
8 Q. Well, did he show any outrage about the contracts in this
9 meeting that y'all had?
10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. He was outraged?
12 A. He was upset.
13 Q. But he continued -- in fact, it was his ultimate decision
14 to continue the contracts?
16:13:20 15 A. He was the owner of the company.
16 Q. Yes, ma'am. But it was his ultimate decision to continue
17 the contracts?
18 A. The contracts were continued, yes.
19 Q. Now, in your direct examination you talked about -- and I
20 think that Mr. Meacham termed it your exposure to criminal
21 charges.
22 It's your understanding that you're not going to be
23 charged?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. With any kind of crime?

Vol 21 - 261
16:13:48 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I want to explore that a little bit.
3 There are -- do you know what kind of immunity you have
4 been given in this case?
5 A. (Witness shakes head back and forth.)
6 Q. There are two kinds or immunity and I want to describe
7 each of them and ask you which one you have been promised by
8 the government.
9 A. I haven't been promised anything.
10 Q. They didn't promise.
11 THE COURT: Just a minute, please, Mr. Steinke.
12 Objection?
13 MR. MEACHAM: Objection.
14 THE COURT: What's the objection?
16:14:16 15 MR. MEACHAM: Relevance.
17 MR. MEACHAM: To the extent two different types, it
18 calls for a legal conclusion.
19 THE COURT: Well, based on the witness' answer I'm
20 not sure where you're going with it.
21 Ask the witness if she has any familiarity with the
22 concept of immunity.
23 MR. STEINKE: I'll ask it this way, your Honor.
24 BY MR. STEINKE:
25 Q. Did the government agree that they weren't going to use

Vol 21 - 262
16:14:38 1 anything that you say against you, or did they agree that
2 regardless of what you say you're not going to be
3 prosecuted?
4 A. Say that again.
5 Q. Yes, ma'am.
6 Did the government tell you that they're not going to use
7 anything you say against you, which is what we call use
8 immunity or testimonial immunity, or did they say regardless
9 of what you tell this jury we're not going to prosecute you?
10 THE COURT: Based on the objection that was stated
11 previously, Counsel, I'm going to instruct you that you need
12 to ask your question differently to allow for another
13 possibility based on the witness' answer. You're giving her
14 an either-or question by instructing her to answer the
16:15:39 15 question as you phrased it, it has to be subject to a yes or
16 no or something else.
18 THE COURT: The objection is sustained to the
19 question as phrased.
20 You may rephrase your question.
21 BY MR. STEINKE:
22 Q. Did the government tell you that regardless of what you
23 say in the courtroom, other than if you lie, perjury, they're
24 not going to prosecute you for any acts that you have
25 committed, or that they say you have committed?

Vol 21 - 263
16:16:17 1 Is that the kind of immunity they gave you?
2 A. I don't understand what you are talking about the way you
3 phrase it. Can I elaborate a little?
4 Q. Sure. I'm trying to find out exactly what they promised
5 you.
6 A. I mean, I get confused when you talk about promises. Let
7 me just put it like this.
8 Regarding Mr. Fantroy and what happened with Mr. Fantroy
9 as far as from that meeting that we had, when we were talking
10 and he recused himself, I didn't know until after we were
11 having a conversation with the FBI that that could be
12 perceived as illegal. Okay? That's number one.
13 Then the U.S. Attorney's Office said to me we're not
14 going to prosecute you, you're not going to be prosecuted.
16:17:18 15 Q. Okay.
16 A. That was it.
17 Q. All right. And is testifying in this trial today part of
18 the agreement you made not to be prosecuted?
19 A. I agreed to tell the truth.
20 Q. But you also agreed to testify?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To tell the jury --
23 A. The truth.
24 Q. -- your version of what happened?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 264
16:17:42 1 Q. Fair enough.
2 You testified that James Fantroy told you to talk to
3 Carol Brandon, his commissioner?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Anything wrong with that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So if Don Hill told you to talk to D'Angelo Lee, his
8 commissioner, nothing wrong with that either, is there?
9 A. No.
10 MR. STEINKE: If we could have Government's Exhibit
11 668, page 250.
12 And I don't know if it's at the top or the bottom.
13 There it is.
14 BY MR. STEINKE:
16:18:23 15 Q. 8:30 meeting with Bill Fisher and Kathy Nealy.
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was anybody else at that meeting?
19 A. Steve Williams with Don Hill.
20 Q. Don Hill was there?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. I believe this is when Don Hill told you that for the
23 first time there was a problem that had arisen on this
24 project?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 265
16:18:44 1 Q. One of the problems he said was finances?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you aware that Jerry Killingsworth, the head of the
4 housing department, had those same concerns about Bill
5 Fisher's finances?
6 A. That came up afterwards, because they requested us to
7 show some financial documents.
8 Q. In fact, they requested that you show those financial
9 documents to Jerry Killingsworth, didn't they?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And are you aware that Mayor Laura Miller also had
12 those same financial concerns about Bill Fisher's company?
13 A. Yes. Laura Miller did not like this.
14 Q. But she also had concerns about his finances?
16:19:24 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Meacham asked you how often do council members make
17 recommendations that you use specific minority contractors.
18 Do you remember that question?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Your answer was they always give a couple of names,
21 right?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. So I take it from that that it's not unusual for a city
24 council person to recommend certain subcontractors to be
25 considered?

Vol 21 - 266
16:19:52 1 A. You cannot go to a specific person. Generally what they
2 do is give several.
3 Q. Several names?
4 A. Several names of contractors. That also refer them to --
5 they have a procurement so those are registered with the City.
6 Q. But nothing unusual -- or nothing sinister about making
7 recommendations, naming names?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You testified that around the end of 2004 that you were
10 at city hall almost every day working for Bill Fisher?
11 A. At the end of what?
12 Q. In the fall of 2004.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Almost every day?
16:20:39 15 A. Pretty close.
16 Q. You were charging him $175 an hour?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. That's why you got the -- what? -- 32,000?
20 Q. How much does he owe you?
21 A. He owes me 32,000.
22 Q. That was part of what you were doing for him at $175 an
23 hour?
24 A. Well, you have to understand I was also getting paid --
25 this 32,000 is outstanding. The work that was done in

Vol 21 - 267
16:21:08 1 November, December before there was also included in that.
2 Plus I did not receive -- I think my records will reflect my
3 success fee for the Pecan Grove.
4 Q. Pecan Grove?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. But I thought you said that you had nothing to do with
7 Pecan Grove?
9 Q. Or did you have anything to do with Dallas West Village?
10 Which one?
12 Q. Which one did you have nothing to do with?
13 A. Bill Fisher had the one on what I call Pecan Grove.
14 Okay?
16:21:42 15 Potashnik, I did not have anything to do with.
16 Q. But Pecan Grove, that got passed, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE COURT: That was four people talking at one
19 time.
20 Ma'am, you need to say yes or no instead of uh-huh or
21 huh-huh.
22 A. Yes.
23 BY MR. STEINKE:
24 Q. Bill Fisher welshed on paying you the $20,000 success
25 fee?

Vol 21 - 268
16:22:09 1 A. What I need to explain what's going on about that.
2 Q. Well, my question is, did Bill Fisher pay you the $20,000
3 success fee after Pecan Grove got passed?
4 A. That's still -- no.
5 Q. He still owes it to you?
6 A. That's a part of the outstanding.
7 Q. The 32,000?
8 A. But I need to explain that, sir. Can I explain that?
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Because it is very critical.
11 There was some delay -- this particular project, even
12 though it passed that part of it, a lot of times you have to
13 wait for everything to be complete with the City. But the
14 utilities there at Pecan Grove, there was still some
16:22:48 15 outstanding issues that needed to be worked out with the City.
16 There was some delays that were going on with regarding
17 the project. Bill Fisher asked and stated to me that he would
18 pay -- be paying afterwards, after they worked out with the
19 City. They were having challenges with the utilities.
20 So that's why that got hung up, and then we went into all
21 this other stuff.
22 Q. But didn't your contract provide that you would be paid
23 the success fee within seven days of the closing of the bonds?
24 A. At the closing of the bonds is different from also -- let
25 me ask that too.

Vol 21 - 269
16:23:30 1 The closing of the bonds is after -- way after the city
2 council.
3 Q. Okay. When were you supposed to be paid?
4 A. It was after the bonds.
5 Q. So seven days after the bonds closed you were supposed to
6 be paid?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. My recollection is that the bonds for Pecan Grove closed,
9 I want to say, in December of 2004?
10 A. Yes. Somewhere along in there.
11 Q. When the bonds --
12 A. December, January.
13 Q. When the bonds close, the developer, in this case Bill
14 Fisher, normally gets about 20 percent of the developer fee?
16:24:18 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which would have been several hundred thousand dollars?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And he didn't pay you the 20,000?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How much did you get paid by Bill Fisher during your
21 consulting work for him? Just a round figure. Do you know?
22 A. No.
23 Q. More than $50,000?
24 A. No. You must remember we were working on three different
25 projects.

Vol 21 - 270
16:24:51 1 Q. Yes, ma'am, I know. But in total.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. More than 100,000?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. So between 50 and 100? Is that fair?
6 A. It's hard to say, because remember when we started out
7 with this projects, Leon Backes was a part of it too. So Leon
8 at first was paying for what was going on, and then when we
9 broke off in August, then going forward -- I don't know if it
10 was more than the 50. It was probably close.
11 Q. Close to $50,000?
12 A. Close.
13 Q. You testified that after Darren Reagan at the August 24,
14 2004 city council meeting asked for the six-month moratorium,
16:25:55 15 and he gave the letter out to everybody that we have seen,
16 that your thought was where is he coming from?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you realized that it wasn't just Provident at
19 Village Fair that he was asking for a moratorium on. Isn't
20 that correct?
21 A. Yeah, he was asking --
22 Q. Everything?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He didn't just single out Bill Fisher's project?
25 A. He was talking about all of them.

Vol 21 - 271
16:26:25 1 Q. All of them?
2 A. But we weren't addressing Village Fair that day, which
3 was Leon Backes' project.
4 Q. But he wanted a moratorium on all of them, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And after that meeting your testimony was that Hill and
7 Fantroy suggested that you meet with Darren Reagan?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And didn't that make sense to you, to meet with him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If they had not suggested it, don't you think you would
12 have decided to meet with him anyway?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Because you had $20,000 riding on it?
16:27:04 15 A. No. That wouldn't have been the reason.
16 Q. The success fee would not be a reason?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So it didn't --
19 A. The process that you go through. So if somebody comes
20 down in opposition, because it wasn't driven by the success
21 fee, sir.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. It was driven by -- you still have to try to get the
24 project across. So you work with -- the name of my company is
25 Kathy Nealy & Associates. So it has integrity that goes

Vol 21 - 272
16:27:30 1 behind that.
2 Q. Yes, ma'am.
3 A. Therefore, I would go talk to the people who came down in
4 opposition so that we could figure out what the concerns and
5 where we stand.
6 Q. So I take it by that answer that even if Don Hill and
7 James Fantroy hadn't suggested that you talk to Darren Reagan,
8 you would have done that yourself?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Because it made sense?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you met at the Pappadeaux with my client on
13 September 20, correct, of 2004?
16:28:06 15 Q. I think that's what your calendar said. Or at least
16 Allen McGill's calendar said.
18 Q. No retail in Village Fair, and really no retail in any of
19 these developments, correct?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And that there were too many multi-family developments
22 going up at once?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Were you aware -- and you have known Darren for 25
25 years -- you're aware that one of his big causes is attracting

Vol 21 - 273
16:28:56 1 better retail to the Southern Sector, correct?
2 A. Yes. He's been on the forefront of that.
3 Q. On the forefront. Okay.
4 So when he told you that he was opposed and wanted the
5 moratorium because there was no retail component, that made
6 perfect sense to you, didn't it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It didn't?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Why?
11 A. Because we had a community meeting, and he didn't come to
12 the community meeting to voice his concern, which is where you
13 come to bring a concern.
14 Q. Do you know whether or not he knew about the community
16:29:32 15 meeting?
16 A. I would assume he did.
17 Q. Well, did you call him and tell him?
18 A. It wasn't in his area.
19 Q. But did you call him to tell him about the meeting?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. So if he didn't know about the meeting, wouldn't it make
22 perfect sense that he wouldn't show up?
24 Q. Is that a fair statement?
25 A. That's fair.

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16:29:57 1 Q. You then after the meeting you say that you instructed
2 Bill Fisher that he should not meet with Darren Reagan alone,
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Isn't the real reason that you told Bill
6 Fisher not to meet with Darren Reagan alone was that you
7 didn't want Fisher and Reagan to enter into any kind of side
8 consulting agreement?
9 A. (No response.)
10 Q. Isn't that the truth?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Isn't it the truth that you did not want Bill Fisher and
13 Darren Reagan to meet in private because if they entered into
14 a consulting contract that would be taking money out of your
16:30:42 15 pocket?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You were charging $175 an hour?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You had a consulting contract with Bill Fisher?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You did not want anybody else to get a consulting
22 contract, did you?
23 A. It didn't bother me if somebody else was hired.
24 You know, I wasn't the only consultant that was on that
25 project. There were many other consultants and lawyers. It

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16:31:03 1 doesn't bother me for other people to be hired. I have my
2 contracts. So if they get another contract, that's fine.
3 Q. You didn't know that Darren Reagan and Bill Fisher had
4 entered into a number of contracts, did you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know that it wasn't Darren Reagan who first
7 suggested a consulting contract between the two parties, but
8 in fact it was Bill Fisher?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you aware of that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you aware that two days after the September 20th
13 meeting in 2004 Bill Fisher gave to Darren Reagan a proposed
14 consulting contract on the same property that you were working
16:31:42 15 on?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't know that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. You have testified a little bit about the
20 opposition that Darren Reagan expressed to a number of the
21 national banks.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And wouldn't you agree with me that because of Darren
25 Reagan's efforts and because of BSEAT's efforts the Southern

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16:32:17 1 Sector got branch banks of a number of the national banking
2 organizations? Isn't that correct?
3 A. Say that again.
4 Q. Yes. I probably need to rephrase that.
5 A. Yeah, you probably need to.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that as a result of the work of
7 Darren Reagan and BSEAT, in some cases boycotting the banks,
8 that that resulted in branch banks of NationsBank, Bank
9 United, Texas Commerce Bank coming to the Southern Sector?
10 A. It wasn't because of Darren Reagan.
11 Q. It wasn't? You don't think it was?
12 A. You know what? There were -- may I expand on that?
13 Q. Yes, ma'am.
14 A. Sir, we have a lot of leaders in our community who have
16:33:02 15 asked for more participation by -- or more inclusion, so I
16 can't say that that was just because of him.
17 Q. But you understand that he led the boycott of a number of
18 banks?
19 A. Oh, yes.
20 Q. After the boycotts the Southern Sector got branch
21 banking?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. True?
24 A. If you say so.
25 Q. Okay. You then told the jury that on November 16, 2004

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16:33:37 1 you had another meeting with Darren Reagan, my client, Don
2 Hill, maybe D'Angelo Lee at the Pappadeaux.
3 I think you showed the jury the receipt for that.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You paid for that?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Did you think that you were bribing Don Hill by paying
8 for his -- was it a lunch or a dinner?
9 A. It was dinner. No, I wasn't bribing anybody.
10 Q. Okay. You didn't consider paying for his meal a bribe?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. You also, when Mr. Meacham asked you whether Bill
13 Fisher was there, you said yes, he was.
14 Remember that?
16:34:17 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you ever tell the FBI in your many meetings with them
17 that you could not recall that Bill Fisher was there at that
18 meeting?
19 A. Yes -- well, yes, I mentioned back and forth that --
20 because even when I said to him as far as remembering exactly,
21 because there was -- we had a number of meetings at
22 Pappadeaux. Remembering the dates is what becomes a little
23 confusing about that.
24 But there were meetings that Bill Fisher was there.
25 There was some that I was there alone. There was -- Bill

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16:34:54 1 Fisher might have been came in late, or I came late to,
2 but. . .
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. -- for the most part.
5 Q. Was he or was he not there?
6 A. On that date?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I'm going to say he was there.
9 Q. Do you remember telling the FBI back in 2007, which would
10 have been two years ago when your memory was probably fresher,
11 that you didn't recall him being there?
12 A. I probably went back and forth on dates.
13 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
14 Besides buying Don Hill this dinner that you did not
16:35:32 15 believe was a bribery, did you invite him to sporting events?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you consider that to be a bribe?
18 A. No.
19 Q. The Pappadeaux that you would meet Darren Reagan at on a
20 number of occasions, wouldn't you agree with me that Darren
21 Reagan was instrumental in having that Pappadeaux built at
22 that location?
23 A. I guess.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 And finally, Ms. Nealy, in answer to Mr. Meacham's

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16:36:28 1 questions about what was the end result of this, you said we
2 got screwed.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Then he asked you who did.
6 A. (No response.)
7 Q. And you said Bill Fisher got screwed.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that you also got screwed, because
11 you did not get the $20,000 success fee, did you?
12 A. Sir --
13 Q. Ma'am, did you get the $20,000 success fee?
14 A. Not yet.
16:37:03 15 Q. Do you blame Don Hill for that?
17 Q. Since he defeated the project, did you blame Don Hill for
18 you not getting the $20,000 success fee?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You don't?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You don't hold a grudge against him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. That's not why you're here testifying to the jury?
25 A. No.

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16:37:23 1 MR. STEINKE: That's all I have.
2 THE COURT: Who's next?
3 MR. GREENE: I believe I am, your Honor.
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. GREENE:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Nealy.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. My name is Doug Greene. I represent councilman -- not
9 councilman -- CPC commissioner formerly, Mr. D'Angelo Lee.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Now, you worked for Bill Fisher for several months, I
12 take it, correct?
13 A. Couple of years.
14 Q. Couple of years.
16:38:02 15 All right. And in your opinion did you believe he was an
16 honest person?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. And did you have a good relationship with
19 him, you think?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, the government asked you about a
22 meeting. I believe it was on November 16th at the Pappadeaux.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And in attendance was Mr. Lee, I believe you said?
25 A. Uh-huh.

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16:38:27 1 Q. Mr. Reagan?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Fisher?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Yourself?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Hill, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Did Bill Fisher tell you that he was an FBI
10 agent on November 10th of -- that he had become an FBI
11 informant agent on November 10, 2004?
12 A. No.
13 Q. He didn't disclose that to you?
14 A. No.
16:38:55 15 Q. You also said that Bill Fisher owed you some money?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That's that 20,000 Mr. Steinke was talking about,
18 correct?
19 A. It's 32,000.
20 Q. $32,000. Right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And so would you agree with me that Bill Fisher is also a
23 person that doesn't live up to his commitments?
24 A. We had a discussion about the balance of that money, and
25 he asked for a delay in the payment of that.

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16:39:24 1 So I can't say that he doesn't live up to his commitment,
2 because I still don't have my money, and all the sudden what
3 happened is all of a sudden we get into all these legal
4 matters that really stops everything, you know.
5 Q. Okay. Did he live up to the commitment to pay you the
6 32,000?
7 A. I don't have it yet, sir.
8 Q. Did you know that Bill Fisher voluntarily was recording
9 conversations involving Mr. Lee?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did he tell you he was recording conversations involving
12 Mr. Reagan?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What about conversation --
16:40:02 15 A. No. I didn't know about anything. Any of that.
16 Q. All right. Were you aware that Mr. Fisher was recording
17 you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Fisher was trying to rope you
20 into this conspiracy while he was working for the FBI?
21 A. No. I will say this. Can I say something?
22 Q. You can, but we're trying to move quickly.
23 THE COURT: Let's not. Just answer the questions.
24 BY MR. GREENE:
25 Q. Did Bill Fisher ever disclose to you that he was

Vol 21 - 283
16:40:44 1 videotaping meetings?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You weren't aware of that at all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you think that this person who you said was honest and
6 that you trusted, do you think that's the kind of person --
7 well, do you think that a person you trust and you think is
8 honest would tell you that?
9 A. Is that yes or no question?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I don't think I can answer that yes or no.
12 Q. All right. Would you think that a person that you trust
13 and believe in would be doing that to you?
14 A. I don't think I can answer that yes or no question.
16:41:22 15 Can I explain expand on them?
16 (No response.)
17 A. Because I think there is some circumstances.
18 Q. Well, let me ask it this way.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. You weren't aware of recorded conversations involving
21 yourself and Bill Fisher?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. You didn't give him permission to do, did
24 you?
25 A. No.

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16:41:43 1 Q. Would you think that's an invasion of your privacy?
2 A. It could be considered, but I think the circumstances
3 behind this -- if I can go back and say --
4 THE COURT: Ma'am, no, you cannot. Just answer the
5 questions that are asked.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 BY MR. GREENE:
8 Q. Would you think a friend that you trusted would put you
9 in a situation where he was trying to set up criminal
10 liability?
11 MR. MEACHAM: Objection to the characterization of
12 the question.
13 THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
14 BY MR. GREENE:
16:42:21 15 Q. Do you think that a person who you trusted would put you
16 in a situation that was criminal in nature allegedly?
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I don't understand that
18 question.
19 MR. GREENE: I'll rephrase it.
20 BY MR. GREENE:
21 Q. Would a friend of yours -- well, would you think that a
22 friend of yours would put you in harm's way?
23 A. Not a friend.
24 Q. Do you think that somebody that you trusted would put you
25 in harm's way?

Vol 21 - 285
16:42:48 1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you think that's an honest thing to do, to put you in
3 harm's way?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did Mr. Fisher ever tell you that six days before your
6 meeting at Pappadeaux he had contacted the FBI?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did he ever tell you he contacted the FBI regarding
9 alleged criminal activities involving supposedly Mr. Lee and
10 others?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Then on that 16th -- on the 16th he let you come into
13 that meeting with him at Pappadeaux, right?
14 A. Yes.
16:43:39 15 Q. And Mr. Fisher was doing the talking at that particular
16 meeting, right?
17 A. We all were talking.
18 Q. All right. But Mr. Fisher is the only one -- well, I
19 shouldn't say that, but certainly you were not aware that
20 Mr. Fisher was working for the FBI at that particular time?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would you think that a person who was working for the
23 FBI --
24 MR. MEACHAM: Objection to the mischaracterization
25 of the question. There is no evidence that Mr. Fisher was

Vol 21 - 286
16:44:12 1 working for the FBI on this date.
2 THE COURT: Rephrase your question. That objection
3 is sustained.
4 BY MR. GREENE:
5 Q. Do you think that a government agent who was -- well,
6 would try to set up a scenario to make it look like there was
7 criminal responsibility going on?
8 A. What is the question?
9 Q. Never mind. I'll move on.
10 Ms. Nealy, I want to clear something up. I want to
11 clarify your testimony that you were talking earlier regarding
12 possible criminal charges against you.
13 All right. All right. Now, you stated that when you met
14 with the FBI they told you you could facing some criminal
16:45:04 15 charges, correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. They didn't tell you that something about the Fantroy
18 situation, your participation in that was criminal?
19 A. That could be considered as criminal, yes.
20 Q. All right. Did they lead you to believe that that in
21 fact was criminal?
22 A. I talked with my attorney.
23 Q. That was Mr. Ravkind, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After that discussion --

Vol 21 - 287
16:45:31 1 A. I explained to him --
2 Q. Well, hold on.
3 After that discussion did you talk to the FBI after that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Did they lead you to believe that the -- your
6 involvement with Mr. Fantroy could potentially be a criminal
7 situation?
8 A. From that point we were going on talking about other
9 situations.
10 Q. Well, that's not my question.
11 My question is, did they lead you to believe that your
12 involvement in the Fantroy situation back in 2003 that we have
13 been talking about was a potentially criminal situation?
14 A. I'm not following you.
16:46:13 15 Q. All right. Let me ask it this way.
16 You went to hire Mr. Ravkind at some point, correct?
17 A. I hired Mr. Ravkind right after I received a call from
18 the FBI to come and talk to them.
19 Q. After you hired Mr. Ravkind at some point you were under
20 the impression that the FBI was looking into your criminal --
21 or potential criminal conduct involving the Fantroy situation?
22 A. When I came to talk to the FBI they were talking about a
23 myriad of things regarding those tax credit projects.
24 Q. Well, I understand.
25 What I'm specifically asking you about, though, is that I

Vol 21 - 288
16:46:52 1 believe you testified on direct that in regard to the Fantroy
2 situation you thought the FBI told you you may have some
3 potential criminal responsibility. Is that right?
4 A. The way that they explained it --
5 Q. Is that right?
6 A. I can't answer that as a yes or no question.
7 Q. All right. Was that a factor in why you went down and
8 talked to the FBI?
9 A. Was what a factor?
10 Q. Was that a factor, the Fantroy contract --
11 A. No.
12 Q. And your involvement in it?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, let me show you what's been marked as Defense
16:47:28 15 Exhibit -- I believe it's 1211, which is a newspaper
16 article --
17 MR. GREENE: And if you could flip to page 3 for me.
18 Just highlight after "calling executive session" down
19 to -- right there.
20 All right.
21 BY MR. GREENE:
22 Q. Do you see there where it says several council members
23 asked the city attorney to talk to Mr. Fantroy about dropping
24 his contract -- go down to the next paragraph -- Mr. Fantroy
25 declined. The city attorney told the mayor that as long as he

Vol 21 - 289
16:47:57 1 excuses himself from council action, his business contract is
2 not inappropriate.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Did the FBI tell you that the city attorney
6 in Dallas had ruled that Mr. Fantroy's conduct was not
7 inappropriate?
8 MR. MEACHAM: Objection, misleading nature of the
9 question.
10 THE COURT: All right. That's overruled.
11 A. That mean I continue to answer?
12 BY MR. GREENE:
13 Q. Yes. That means you can answer.
14 A. That's not a yes or no answer.
16:48:35 15 Q. It is.
16 A. Now, what's the question?
17 Q. The question is, did the FBI tell you that Mr. Fantroy's
18 actions with Mr. Fisher were legal?
19 A. Mr. Fantroy's actions with -- now, explain, because I
20 think -- well, why I'm not being clear is because you're
21 talking about recusing himself or not recusing himself?
22 Q. Correct.
23 A. Or talking -- or speaking with us after when he had
24 recused himself?
25 You see what I'm saying?

Vol 21 - 290
16:49:17 1 Q. Yes, I do. Let me see if I can clear it up.
2 At some point it was -- did the FBI tell you what
3 that article just showed?
4 MR. GREENE: If you would put that back up,
5 Ms. Christensen.
6 Just highlight that same area.
7 BY MR. GREENE:
8 Q. Specifically.
9 THE COURT: All right. We don't need to read it
10 again. Just ask her a question.
11 BY MR. GREENE:
12 Q. The second paragraph on that page.
13 THE COURT: Just ask a question, please.
14 BY MR. GREENE:
16:49:54 15 Q. Did the FBI tell you that Mr. -- what this article
16 says?
17 A. That if Fantroy recused himself, it was okay.
18 Q. Okay. Correct.
19 A. When he recused himself, yes.
20 Q. Correct.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Did they tell you that that was ruled to be perfectly
23 legal?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you feel some pressure at that point to -- from the

Vol 21 - 291
16:50:22 1 FBI to say some things to the FBI to get them off your back?
2 A. No.
3 Q. All right. But at some point you did speak to them
4 further, correct?
5 A. When they asked me questions, I answered questions.
6 Q. All right. Then you voluntarily went down there, is my
7 point, right?
8 A. They called me and asked me to come in to speak with
9 them.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. And we set a date, and I came in to speak with them.
12 I went and got my attorney, and came down to speak to them.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Fisher, who you trusted and you thought was
14 honest, he did not tell you that he had signed this contract
16:51:11 15 with Mr. Fantroy, did he?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And do you see a pattern of things that Mr. Fisher did
18 not disclose to you?
19 A. The question?
20 Q. Do you see a pattern of things that Mr. Fisher did not
21 disclose to you?
22 A. I guess.
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. Yes. There was some things that he did not disclose to
25 me.

Vol 21 - 292
16:51:43 1 Q. Now, were you aware that Mr. Fisher used to work for
2 Southwest Housing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And are you aware at some point Mr. Fisher left the
5 employment of Southwest Housing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And are you also aware that that was not a friendly
8 departure?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Him and Mr. Potashnik didn't get along after that.
11 You're aware of that?
12 A. After he left?
13 Q. Correct.
14 A. Yes.
16:52:08 15 Q. One of the reasons they didn't get along is because
16 Mr. Potashnik believed that Mr. Fisher was deceptive?
17 MR. MEACHAM: Objection to what Mr. Potashnik
18 believed.
20 BY MR. GREENE:
21 Q. Did you know the particulars of the feud between
22 Mr. Potashnik and Mr. Fisher?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But what you did know is that they were not on friendly
25 terms?

Vol 21 - 293
16:52:32 1 THE COURT: We have covered that, Counsel.
3 BY MR. GREENE:
4 Q. Mr. Fisher never told the particulars of what happened
5 with Mr. Potashnik. Is that right?
6 A. No. Because Mr. Fisher didn't hire me. Leon Backes
7 hired me first.
8 Q. All right. Now, at some point Mr. -- well, as you said,
9 Mr. Backes hired you to be a consultant, correct?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. At some point Mr. Fisher came on as an employee or
12 partner?
13 A. Partner.
14 Q. Partner. All right.
16:53:03 15 And at some point during that relationship in regard to
16 these contracts there was a split between Mr. Backes and
17 Mr. Fisher, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you agree that the reason for the split was because
20 Mr. Backes didn't trust Mr. Fisher?
21 A. I don't know what that reason was.
22 Q. All right. Did Mr. Fisher not tell you that?
23 A. Nor Leon Backes.
24 Q. Mr. Backes either.
25 But you did say that Mr. Backes was upset when things

Vol 21 - 294
16:53:36 1 about the contract with Mr. Fantroy came up, correct?
2 A. What now? Would you repeat that?
3 Q. You did say that Mr. Backes was upset with Mr. Fisher
4 when the Fantroy recusal matter came in front of the city
5 council?
6 A. He was upset all the way around because he was
7 embarrassed at the city council meeting that day that all that
8 took place.
9 Q. One of the reasons why he was embarrassed is because he
10 wasn't aware that Mr. Fisher had done these things without his
11 knowledge, right?
12 A. We never did get into -- that was not a part of the
13 discussion that I was a part of. It was only about continuing
14 the contract.
16:54:20 15 Q. Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
16 Were you aware that Mr. Fisher was tape recording other
17 folks in San Antonio?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Fisher had contracts -- or was
20 trying to get contracts like he was in Dallas in other
21 cities?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. And some of the contracts were in San Antonio
24 also, correct?
25 A. Yes.

Vol 21 - 295
16:54:49 1 Q. All right. Were you aware that Fisher, in order to --
2 similar to this situation, in order to try to force people or
3 to move people, was tape recording officials from San Antonio?
4 MR. MEACHAM: Objection. The witness already said
5 she didn't know anything about possible recordings in
6 San Antonio.
7 THE COURT: Okay. She said that. Sustained.
8 BY MR. GREENE:
9 Q. You weren't aware of that obviously?
10 A. I wasn't aware of any of that.
11 THE COURT: Let's move on instead of asking the same
12 question repeatedly, Mr. Greene?
13 BY MR. GREENE:
14 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Fisher was trying to -- that
16:55:22 15 Mr. Fisher had an agenda to try to get rid of these
16 politicians so he could have a changing of the guard in
17 District 5?
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. Were you aware of --
20 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, I would ask to play a tape
21 as Defendant's Exhibit Number 86. I offer it at this point
22 into evidence. Defendant Lee's Exhibit Number 86.
23 THE COURT: Is there any objection to Lee 86?
24 MR. GREENE: I don't think he's objecting. He's
25 just asking a question.

Vol 21 - 296
16:56:04 1 THE COURT: Is there an objection?
2 MR. MEACHAM: I'm not sure what it's a recording of.
3 MR. GREENE: It's a recording of Mr. Fisher and
4 Ms. Nealy talking about the changing of the guards.
5 MR. MEACHAM: No objection.
6 THE COURT: How long is that?
7 MR. GREENE: It's probably about 15 minutes.
8 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, can
9 you hang in there for 15 minutes?
10 (Nodding heads up and down.)
11 THE COURT: Let's go.
12 MR. GREENE: Thank you, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: 86 is admitted.
14 (Audiotape clip, DLX 86 played.)
16:57:53 15 THE COURT: Are we waiting for something?
16 MR. GREENE: I don't know. It's playing but there
17 is no sound coming through the system.
18 Well, your Honor, rather than waste time, I guess I can
19 bring that back up Monday, but I would just have one other
20 area to go into other than that tape.
21 THE COURT: Then go into whatever else you have. I
22 don't think it's system that's not working.
23 MR. GREENE: Well, I think it was originally on --
24 THE COURT: Move on to something else.
25 BY MR. GREENE:

Vol 21 - 297
16:58:31 1 Q. Now, you knew -- well, you are aware -- I think you
2 testified on direct that Mr. Lee became a CPC commissioner
3 after a six-month delay, six or seven-month delay, correct?
4 A. The seat was vacant for over that period of time. Don
5 and I were talking about when he was going to have a
6 replacement. It was about six months.
7 Q. All right. And I think that you said that Mr. Lee was --
8 I think your statement on direct was talking side ways?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Is that what you said?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And by sideways, I guess the point is that you were aware
13 that Mr. Lee was a political rookie?
14 A. A what?
16:59:19 15 Q. A rookie.
16 A. He was a developer. No, he was not political.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. No, he was not a political rookie.
19 Q. Mr. Lee -- maybe it was inartfully phrased.
20 Mr. Lee had never held a public office before, right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In January of '04 he was swore into the CPC, which was
23 the City Plan & Zoning Commission?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At some point you had talked to Councilman Hill about

Vol 21 - 298
16:59:51 1 some of Mr. Lee's sideways talking?
2 A. On several occasions I even talked to Mr. Lee about that.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. And his wife.
5 Q. What you wanted to do was mentor Mr. Lee, I think was
6 your statement?
7 A. Excuse me?
8 Q. You wanted to mentor?
9 A. Don Hill suggested that I mentor Mr. Lee. I tried to
10 give him advice. But he also being a plan commissioner, as
11 you well know, they had a training on ethics and what they are
12 supposed to do as planning commissioners.
13 Q. All right. Did you mentor him?
14 A. Did I mentor him?
17:00:26 15 Q. Right. Did you try to give advice to Mr. Lee?
16 A. On occasion.
17 Q. Did you -- were you of the opinion that Mr. Lee was a
18 good person?
19 A. He was all right.
20 Q. He was smart?
21 A. He's smart.
22 Q. And that you just needed to work with him?
23 A. Excuse me?
24 Q. That you needed to work with him?
25 A. No. No. I'm a business person.

Vol 21 - 299
17:00:50 1 Q. But my question --
2 A. Like he was a business person.
3 Q. My question is, did you say that you needed to work with
4 him?
5 A. Did I say that, or did somebody say that I needed to work
6 with him?
7 Q. Did you say that?
8 A. At what point in time? Are we talking at the beginning,
9 the middle or the end?
10 Q. At any point.
11 A. Because rookies are at the beginning phase.
12 Q. Ma'am, at any point did you say that?
13 A. I can't recall.
14 Q. Did you also say that he reminds me of me when I was
17:01:21 15 young? Did you say that?
16 A. I don't remember saying that.
17 Q. And --
18 MR. GREENE: Your Honor, I would ask to play Sheila
19 Hill's Number 6761.
20 THE COURT: Do you have that, Ms. Christensen?
21 MR. GREENE: I believe Mr. Mureen has it.
22 THE COURT: All right. We're going to adjourn for
23 the day.
24 All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we will see you at 8:30
25 on Monday. Have a pleasant weekend. We're going to stay here

Vol 21 - 300
17:02:20 1 to do some work to try to move along more quickly next week.
2 Ms. Nealy, you're excused until 8:30 on Monday morning.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
5 THE COURT: All right. Be seated.
6 How much longer do you have, Mr. Greene?
7 MR. GREENE: Those tapes and that's it. Five
8 minutes. Ten minutes.
9 THE COURT: Well, if the tape is 15 minutes, I don't
10 think you're going to be five minutes.
11 MR. GREENE: Well, me speaking personally. That's
12 all I have other than the tapes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: If you all are going to play tapes, you
14 need to have them ready to go. I don't think there is
17:03:21 15 anything wrong with our system, but if there is, then we will
16 get it checked. I don't think there is.
17 Are you having any trouble with your computer,
18 Mr. Mureen, teeing up?
19 MR. MUREEN: No, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Jackson, you're still going to be an
21 hour?
22 MR. JACKSON: I believe so, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: 8:30.
24 All right. I'm going to go through every witness on
25 every list right now, and see who is actually going to be

Vol 21 - 301
17:03:44 1 called that hasn't been called.
2 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I guess it doesn't -- I
3 was wondering about upstairs.
4 THE COURT: I don't care if they hear what I just
5 said, or anything that's about to happen. This is all the
6 witnesses remaining in the trial.
7 Mr. Busch, will you give me a list of the next witnesses,
8 hand that up to me, please. That's not what I'm asking you to
9 do now. I need you to give me a list so that I can provide it
10 to those who had made the agreement with the Court.
11 MR. BUSCH: Yes, ma'am.
12 May I approach?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 All right. I'm looking at the government's witness
17:05:00 15 lists, probable fact witnesses. I'm going to call the name
16 out and you're going to say yes, you intend to call them, or
17 no, you don't. If I call someone who has already testified,
18 then you will tell me that.
19 Shirley Acy.
20 MR. BUSCH: Possible.
21 THE COURT: Is that on something that we haven't
22 already heard? I'm not going to allow anyone to keep calling
23 witnesses to cover the same subject. So we'll come back to
24 anybody who you say possible, and not yes.
25 Linda Aguirre has already testified.

Vol 21 - 302
17:05:39 1 Joseph Archuletta.
2 MR. BUSCH: No.
3 THE COURT: Denise Barnett.
4 MR. BUSCH: No.
5 THE COURT: John Barr.
6 MR. BUSCH: Possibly.
7 THE COURT: Jesse Basham.
8 MR. BUSCH: No.
9 THE COURT: Venita Benitez.
10 MR. BUSCH: Probably not.
11 THE COURT: Andy Bishop.
12 MR. BUSCH: Your Honor, when I respond to these, of
13 course I haven't heard the cross-examination that's going to
14 occur with the remaining government witnesses. I don't want
17:06:06 15 the government to be bound by representations that I make
16 today when the government hasn't gotten to the halfway point
17 of presenting its case.
18 THE COURT: Okay. If you need to change any answer
19 you have given me today because of something that develops in
20 cross, you will tell me what that is, and I'll consider it.
21 Andy Bishop.
22 MR. BUSCH: No.
23 THE COURT: Gwyneith Black.
25 THE COURT: Bill Blaydes.

Vol 21 - 303
17:06:39 1 MR. BUSCH: Possibly.
2 THE COURT: Anthony Board.
3 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Brooke Boston has already testified.
5 Beverly Mithcell-Brooks.
7 THE COURT: Verna Bryant.
9 THE COURT: Casey Burgess.
10 MR. BUSCH: No.
11 THE COURT: Martin Burrell.
12 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Richie Butler.
14 MR. BUSCH: No.
17:07:20 15 THE COURT: James Canon.
17 THE COURT: Jeff Carpenter.
19 THE COURT: Suprina Casteel.
21 THE COURT: Jehrime Chadwick.
23 THE COURT: Brent Chambers.
24 MR. BUSCH: No.
25 Well, I think he testified.

Vol 21 - 304
17:07:44 1 No. The answer is no.
2 THE COURT: Only one of those is true. He may have
3 a vivid impression on both of us if he did.
4 Okay. Craig Chandler has testified.
5 Hymen Childs.
6 MR. BUSCH: No.
7 THE COURT: Henry Cisneros.
9 THE COURT: Keith Collinsworth.
10 MR. BUSCH: Probably.
11 THE COURT: David Cossum.
13 THE COURT: William Cothrum.
14 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
17:08:28 15 THE COURT: Karl Crawley.
17 THE COURT: Neva Dean has testified.
18 Fernando De Leon.
20 THE COURT: Chris Derks.
21 MR. BUSCH: No.
22 THE COURT: John Donahue.
23 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Tom Ensz.
25 MR. BUSCH: Yes.

Vol 21 - 305
17:08:56 1 THE COURT: Crystal Evans.
2 MR. BUSCH: Well, that depends on one exhibit that
3 is outstanding.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Crystal Evans?
5 MR. BUSCH: No.
6 THE COURT: Ryan Evans.
8 THE COURT: I have a range of yes, probably,
9 probably not, possibly and no.
10 Okay. I'm only hearing those yeses.
11 Ron Ferguson.
13 THE COURT: Adam Finster.
14 MR. BUSCH: No.
17:09:46 15 THE COURT: I'll save the discussion for Bill
16 Fisher.
17 Herb Frison.
18 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
19 THE COURT: James Fulbright.
21 THE COURT: David Garcia.
22 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Laurie Gibbs.
24 MR. BUSCH: No.
25 THE COURT: Prentice Gary.

Vol 21 - 306
17:10:11 1 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Tom Gouris.
3 MR. BUSCH: No.
4 THE COURT: Alan Hampton.
5 MR. BUSCH: No.
6 THE COURT: You said no.
7 MR. BUSCH: No.
8 THE COURT: I just couldn't hear.
9 Mary Hasan.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Haskel has already testified.
12 MR. BUSCH: I hope not. He's already testified.
13 Erma Haynes.
14 I think that's subject to some privilege.
17:10:48 15 I think you hope that it is.
16 Erma Haynes.
18 THE COURT: Cynthia Hernandez.
19 MR. BUSCH: No.
20 THE COURT: Vivian Hill.
22 THE COURT: Michael Hillman.
23 MR. BUSCH: He's already testified.
24 THE COURT: Yes, he has. I made a note of that, and
25 then didn't say it.

Vol 21 - 307
17:11:22 1 Tammy Holloway.
2 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Carrie Holmes.
4 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
5 THE COURT: George Hull.
6 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Tammy Hurst.
8 MR. BUSCH: No.
9 THE COURT: Melinda Jackson.
10 MR. BUSCH: No.
11 THE COURT: Saleem Jafar.
12 MR. BUSCH: Maybe.
13 THE COURT: No, you don't have maybe. You're going
14 to have to make a difficult choice between probably and
17:12:04 15 probably not and possibly.
17 THE COURT: Okay. That's less certain than maybe.
18 Alex Jimenez.
19 MR. BUSCH: No.
20 THE COURT: Eddie Bernice Johnson.
22 THE COURT: Madeleine Johnson.
24 THE COURT: Keith Jones.

Vol 21 - 308
17:12:36 1 THE COURT: Mark Jones.
2 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Frank Jordan.
4 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Mark Kelcher.
6 MR. BUSCH: No.
7 THE COURT: David Kendall.
8 MR. BUSCH: No.
9 THE COURT: Jerry Killingsworth has testified.
10 Brent Kroener.
11 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
12 THE COURT: John Lewis.
13 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Ann Lott.
17:13:05 15 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Tim Lott.
17 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Leon Lueken.
19 MR. BUSCH: No.
20 THE COURT: Allyn Lynd.
21 MR. BUSCH: No.
22 THE COURT: Carlos Madrid.
23 MR. BUSCH: No.
24 THE COURT: Charles Mallery.
25 MR. BUSCH: No.

Vol 21 - 309
17:13:22 1 THE COURT: David Marquez.
2 MR. BUSCH: No.
3 THE COURT: Chris Martin.
5 THE COURT: Matt Martin.
6 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Marty Mascari.
9 THE COURT: Jack Matthews.
10 MR. BUSCH: No.
11 THE COURT: Allen McGill.
12 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Lori Meyer.
14 MR. BUSCH: No.
17:13:57 15 THE COURT: Laura Miller testified.
16 Myron Mims.
18 THE COURT: Mosezell Magee.
19 MR. BUSCH: No.
20 THE COURT: Greg Moss.
21 MR. BUSCH: No.
22 THE COURT: Steven Napolitano.
24 THE COURT: Jackie Northrupt.
25 MR. BUSCH: No.

Vol 21 - 310
17:14:21 1 THE COURT: Mark Obeso.
3 THE COURT: Theresa O'Donnell.
5 THE COURT: Jideofor Oji.
7 THE COURT: Richard Pace.
8 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Ken Paith has testified, I believe.
10 Hammond Perot.
12 THE COURT: Kent Plemons.
13 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Zac Ramsey has testified.
17:15:05 15 Mitchell Rasansky?
17 THE COURT: Maxine Thornton-Reese.
19 THE COURT: Sara Reidy.
20 MR. BUSCH: No.
21 THE COURT: Kyle Robertson.
22 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
23 THE COURT: John Rogers.
24 MR. BUSCH: No.
25 THE COURT: Mark Rogers.

Vol 21 - 311
17:15:33 1 MR. BUSCH: No.
2 THE COURT: Karen Schaffner.
4 THE COURT: Monica Segedy.
5 MR. BUSCH: No.
6 THE COURT: Don Sherman.
7 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
8 THE COURT: John Skillestad.
9 MR. BUSCH: He's testified.
10 THE COURT: Yes, he has. I had that noted. Sorry.
11 Andrea Spencer.
12 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Stanley Spigel.
14 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
17:15:56 15 THE COURT: James Spound.
16 MR. BUSCH: No.
17 THE COURT: Mary Suhm.
19 THE COURT: Christine Sullivan.
20 MR. BUSCH: No.
21 THE COURT: David Summers.
22 MR. BUSCH: No.
23 THE COURT: Deepak Sulahke.
25 THE COURT: Glenn Swan.

Vol 21 - 312
17:16:24 1 MR. BUSCH: Probably not.
2 THE COURT: Richard Tettamant.
4 THE COURT: That's Beth Thompson.
5 MR. BUSCH: No.
6 THE COURT: Phillip Umphres.
8 THE COURT: Donald Vestal.
10 THE COURT: Tina Williams.
11 MR. BUSCH: No.
12 THE COURT: David Walters.
13 MR. BUSCH: No.
14 THE COURT: Doretha Washington
17:17:15 15 MR. BUSCH: Possibly.
16 THE COURT: Deborah Watkins has testified.
17 Brett Wilkinson.
18 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Donald Williams.
21 THE COURT: Steve Williams and Allen Wilson have
22 testified.
23 Seifu Yigezu.
25 THE COURT: Karl Zavitkovsky.

Vol 21 - 313
17:17:43 1 MR. BUSCH: No.
2 THE COURT: Dan Zavitkovsky.
3 MR. BUSCH: No.
4 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Potashnik and
5 Ms. Rushbrooke have already testified.
6 Now, Barry Stewart. Expert.
7 MR. BUSCH: No.
8 THE COURT: Any of those custodial witnesses
9 testifying?
10 MR. BUSCH: Possibly one. Someone from First
11 Convenience Bank of Texas.
12 THE COURT: Okay. The others not, but possibly
13 that?
14 MR. BUSCH: Right. I think the others are either no
17:18:39 15 or probably not.
16 THE COURT: All right. Now, you have a supplemental
17 list I'll read now.
18 Kathy Akins.
19 MR. BUSCH: All of those on that first column at
20 this point they are involved in wiretaps with the FBI.
21 As to the second one, photographs, since all the
22 photographs are now in evidence, I doubt we will need any of
23 those, but perhaps we may have to call one in context, but
24 this one, I doubt it.
25 THE COURT: All right. Now, I have covered your

Vol 21 - 314
17:19:16 1 original and your supplement. That's it, correct?
2 MR. BUSCH: Yes.
4 Now, I'm not of course inquiring of the defendants
5 whether any defendant is testifying. That's not encompassed
6 within my questions. Several of you have said before the jury
7 that your client will testify, but my question does not go to
8 that, and I will not ask that.
9 I'll begin with your list, Mr. Jackson.
10 Henry Cisneros.
11 MR. JACKSON: Can I have same range of options?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. JACKSON: Probably not.
14 THE COURT: Jack Matthews.
17:19:59 15 MR. JACKSON: No.
16 THE COURT: Neal Sleeper.
17 MR. JACKSON: No.
18 THE COURT: George Shafer.
20 THE COURT: Ken Reese.
21 MR. JACKSON: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Leon Backes.
24 THE COURT: Gary Henry.

Vol 21 - 315
17:20:20 1 THE COURT: Mr. Cothrum has been listed on the
2 government's, and the government said yes in response to my
3 question, so I won't ask you again.
4 Todd Ruble.
6 THE COURT: Richard Allen.
8 THE COURT: Ed Romanov.
9 MR. JACKSON: No.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Gary, the government said yes. I
11 won't cover that again.
12 Judd Pankey.
13 MR. JACKSON: Maybe. I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: That option was eliminated from the
17:21:01 15 repertoire.
16 MR. JACKSON: Possibly.
17 THE COURT: George Bayoud.
19 THE COURT: Myron Mims.
20 MR. JACKSON: Probably.
21 THE COURT: Ann Lott was on the government's
22 listing.
23 As was Matt Martin.
24 Comer Cottrell.
25 MR. JACKSON: Yes, depending on his health status.

Vol 21 - 316
17:21:35 1 THE COURT: Jehrime Chadwick.
2 MR. JACKSON: No.
3 THE COURT: Gail Terrell.
4 MR. JACKSON: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Kathy Nealy is already testifying.
6 Andrea Spencer -- well, I'm sorry. The government said
7 yes to that.
8 As to Allen McGill also.
9 Saleem Jafar.
11 THE COURT: Steve Williams has already testified.
12 You're not planning to re-call him?
13 MR. JACKSON: No, ma'am.
14 THE COURT: Venita Benitez.
17:22:11 15 MR. JACKSON: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Eddie Bernice Johnson.
18 THE COURT: Stanley Spigel.
19 MR. JACKSON: I think he's testifying.
20 THE COURT: Yes. He is yes. Thank you.
21 Richard Pace is also a yes on the government's list.
22 Frank Jordan is yes.
23 Ms. Aguirre has already testified.
24 Ron Price.

Vol 21 - 317
17:22:44 1 THE COURT: Maxine Thornton-Reese.
3 THE COURT: Leo Chaney.
4 MR. VITAL: May I raise Ms. Reese to a probably.
5 THE COURT: Yes. Upgrade? Is that what you said?
6 MR. JACKSON: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: I think that's all in the eye of the
8 beholder, Mr. Jackson. You may move her from possibly to
9 probably.
10 Leo Chaney, you said?
12 THE COURT: Eric Maas.
14 THE COURT: Beverly Brooks.
17:23:24 15 MR. JACKSON: Possibly.
16 THE COURT: Domingo Garcia.
18 THE COURT: Gary Mayberry.
20 THE COURT: The government said yes to Mr. Lewis.
21 Mary Poss.
23 THE COURT: Carroll Robinson.
25 THE COURT: Andrea Spencer, the government

Vol 21 - 318
17:23:49 1 identified.
2 All right. Is that your full list? I have one list from
3 you, Mr. Jackson.
4 MR. JACKSON: Yes, your Honor. That's my full list.
5 THE COURT: All right. I'll try not to duplicate.
6 I think that on Mr. Lee's list, Mr. Greene, Leon Backes.
7 MR. GREENE: Possibly, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: I think that Mr. Jackson said yes on
9 Mr. Backes.
10 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, we will be filing an
11 amended or supplemental witness list. I would like to add,
12 for the Court's purposes, Kevin Dean as a -- I'm sorry.
13 THE COURT: All right. Leon Backes. On your list,
14 Mr. Greene, Mr. Backes.
17:24:44 15 MR. GREENE: Correct.
16 THE COURT: Commer Cottrell was identified on
17 Mr. Jackson's list for Mr. Hill, so I won't repeat that.
18 As was Mr. Domingo Garcia.
19 Prentice Gary was on the government's list.
20 Mr. Fulbright, I think was probably on the government's.
21 MR. GREENE: I'm sorry. Yes, your Honor, probably.
22 THE COURT: You're calling him for sure?
23 MR. GREENE: Probably. I know he's on the
24 government's witness list also.

Vol 21 - 319
17:25:23 1 MR. GREENE: Yes, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes, you're calling her for sure?
3 MR. GREENE: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Leo Chaney.
5 MR. GREENE: Possibly, your Honor.
7 MR. GREENE: Probably not, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I can't do this quite as
9 efficiently as I might have if your list was in alphabetical
10 order, Mr. Jackson.
11 MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry.
13 MR. GREENE: Probably, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. Is it Karen Schaefer or
17:26:25 15 Schaffner? Is that the same person?
16 MR. GREENE: Yes, the same person. That's a
17 probably.
18 THE COURT: Doug Dykman.
19 MR. GREENE: Same. Yes, probably.
20 THE COURT: Warren Ellis.
21 MR. GREENE: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Ms. Medlock Lee.
24 THE COURT: Ron Ferguson.
25 MR. GREENE: Probably.

Vol 21 - 320
17:27:02 1 THE COURT: Harry Wright.
2 MR. GREENE: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Daniel Jones.
4 MR. GREENE: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Ron Price.
8 MR. GREENE: Possibly.
10 MR. GREENE: Possibly.
11 THE COURT: Melvin Traylor.
13 THE COURT: Royce West.
17:27:52 15 THE COURT: All right. If I'm repeating some of
16 these, so be it. I don't have any good way to go back, so I
17 just won't.
18 Mr. Vital, you're up.
19 Susan Abbey.
20 MR. VITAL: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Leon Backes.
22 MR. VITAL: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Anthony Board.
24 MR. VITAL: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Beverly Mitchell-Brooks.

Vol 21 - 321
17:28:12 1 MR. VITAL: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Karl Butler.
3 MR. VITAL: No.
4 THE COURT: Richie Butler.
5 MR. VITAL: No.
7 MR. VITAL: No.
8 THE COURT: I remember we have covered Mr. Cottrell.
9 Yvonne Davis.
10 MR. VITAL: Probably.
11 THE COURT: Kevin Dean.
12 MR. VITAL: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Eric Fulbright.
14 MR. VITAL: Yes. Well, no. Possibly.
17:28:35 15 THE COURT: James Mac Fulbright.
16 MR. VITAL: Possibly.
17 THE COURT: Domingo Garcia.
18 MR. VITAL: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Billy Greer.
20 MR. VITAL: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Reverend Hollie.
22 MR. VITAL: Possibly.
23 THE COURT: EJ Janik.
24 MR. VITAL: No.
25 THE COURT: All that money I authorized for

Vol 21 - 322
17:28:53 1 Mr. Janik?
2 MR. VITAL: If he was testifying at trial, your
3 Honor.
4 THE COURT: Who doesn't actually have a name. It's
5 only the initials, EJ Janik.
6 MR. VITAL: He was very helpful.
7 THE COURT: He doesn't even use periods with the E
8 and the J. As I edited my law clerks' work, and they had to
9 bring it in and show me that he didn't actually use periods
10 with the E and J.
11 MR. VITAL: He was very helpful.
12 THE COURT: I wasn't impugning his intelligence,
13 just his use of periods.
14 Eddie Bernice Johnson.
17:29:21 15 MR. VITAL: No.
17 MR. VITAL: Yes.
19 MR. VITAL: No.
20 THE COURT: Gary Mayberry.
21 MR. VITAL: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Myron Mims.
24 THE COURT: Dana Nichols.
25 MR. VITAL: Yes. No. Probably. Probably.

Vol 21 - 323
17:29:46 1 THE COURT: Mary Poss.
2 MR. VITAL: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Maxine Thornton-Reese.
4 MR. VITAL: No.
5 THE COURT: Carroll Robinson.
6 MR. VITAL: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Mary Suhm.
8 MR. VITAL: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Melvin Traylor.
11 THE COURT: Mike Uhl.
12 MR. VITAL: Yes.
13 THE COURT: On what?
14 MR. VITAL: On the point about the legitimacy of the
17:30:15 15 contract with Scrubbs.
16 THE COURT: Was he with Fish & Richardson.
17 MR. VITAL: He was not, but he teamed with Fish &
18 Richardson. He was part of the trial team. He was part of
19 this investigation team. I'm going to take the position of
20 Mr. Potashnik waived the privilege.
22 MR. VITAL: I don't think I needed that to have him
23 testify, but I think it helped me that I believe Potashnik
24 waived it.
25 THE COURT: Well, in fairness I think you need to

Vol 21 - 324
17:30:43 1 put Mr. Potashnik's attorney on notice of that claim.
2 MR. VITAL: Oh, we have been talking to them.
3 THE COURT: Well, I need to adjudicate that issue at
4 the appropriate time so they need to know when this is going
5 to happen.
6 MR. VITAL: I will keep them informed.
7 THE COURT: Pastor Wallace.
8 MR. VITAL: Yes.
9 THE COURT: All right. Now, I'm assuming no one is
10 relying -- although I have let you obviously because it's fair
11 to, let you use Mr. Potashnik's designated exhibits. I'm not
12 letting you use his designated witness list. So if no one --
13 if they're not on your list, they're not on.
14 MR. VITAL: Okay.
17:31:27 15 THE COURT: Mr. Steinke, your list is.
16 MR. STEINKE: Long and distinguished.
17 THE COURT: Well, long. I'm not commenting on not
18 disguished. It's just long.
19 MR. STEINKE: Most of them are possible character
20 witnesses.
21 THE COURT: Well, you're not going to get that many
22 character witnesses.
24 THE COURT: I mean, if you're calling character
25 witnesses, you're probably going to get two of those. You

Vol 21 - 325
17:31:53 1 might talk me into three, but I don't think you will talk me
2 into more than that.
4 MR. MUREEN: Your Honor, I apologize for
5 interrupting, but I just want to make note that we were about
6 to file supplemental designation of two additional witnesses
7 both from the government's list. Mark Jones and Jeff
8 Carpenter.
9 MR. VITAL: Your Honor, Mr. Lipscomb, he's about to
10 leave the courtroom. He just leaned over and told me that he
11 wanted to address the Court and make an apology.
12 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Lipscomb, if this has to
13 do with the great candy incident, you don't have to apologize
14 to me.
17:32:26 15 MR. LIPSCOMB: I want to respect the Court.
16 THE COURT: I know you do, and that comment -- my
17 concern about it was not directed to you. I knew your
18 condition and it was perfectly fine. I just didn't want it
19 making the rounds. So no apology needed. I wasn't going to
20 say a thing about it.
21 I appreciate your trying to say something to me. It's
22 completely unnecessary.
23 Have a nice weekend, sir.
24 Can you give me those names again, please.
25 MR. MUREEN: Mark Jones and Jeff Carpenter.

Vol 21 - 326
17:33:02 1 We just wanted to tell the Court, but I think they were
2 yeses on the government's list, but just in case we definitely
3 want them.
4 THE COURT: Mark Jones and Jeff Carpenter was a
5 possible.
6 MR. VITAL: Yes for us.
7 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to go to this
8 shorter list that Ms. Deckard has.
9 Mark McBride.
10 MS. DECKARD: Possibly. We have possibly.
11 THE COURT: If you're going to call Mark McBride,
12 the Court is going to have a hearing outside the presence of
13 the jury about that. So at an appropriate time you will give
14 me at least 48-hours notice of your intention to do that, and
17:33:51 15 I'll have a hearing outside the presence of the jury, because
16 if this relates to the proffer, given what I have heard about
17 it, I'm not likely to permit it, but I'm of course going to
18 let you develop a record and try to convince me otherwise.
19 Mr. Dobbins I heard you say is?
20 MS. DECKARD: Possible.
21 THE COURT: Ms. Leal.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Matlock.
24 MR. VITAL: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Ms. Thigpen.

Vol 21 - 327
17:34:17 1 MR. VITAL: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Kirkpatrick.
3 MS. DECKARD: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Williams.
5 MS. DECKARD: Yes.
6 THE COURT: Steele.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Lipscomb, I realize I cut you off,
9 and if you were going to say something else to me, I didn't
10 mean to be rude. Was that what you wanted to talk to me
11 about?
12 MR. LIPSCOMB: Yes.
14 Ervin Williams.
17:34:42 15 MS. DECKARD: Possible.
16 THE COURT: David Robertson.
17 MR. VITAL: Possible.
18 THE COURT: Francis Robertson.
20 THE COURT: Michael Booty.
21 MR. VITAL: Possible.
22 THE COURT: That's it. I don't have a supplement
23 for that.
24 MS. DECKARD: That's it.
25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Steinke, I'm going to

Vol 21 - 328
17:34:59 1 run through these, and just give your answer as quickly as you
2 can.
3 Lee Alcorn.
4 MR. STEINKE: Possible.
5 THE COURT: Gerald Alley.
7 THE COURT: Troy Alley.
8 MR. STEINKE: No.
9 THE COURT: James Belt.
10 MR. STEINKE: No.
11 THE COURT: Molly Belt.
13 THE COURT: David Berry.
17:35:16 15 THE COURT: Larcine Bland.
16 MR. STEINKE: No.
17 THE COURT: Effie Booker.
18 MR. STEINKE: No.
19 THE COURT: Juneeta Boyd.
20 MR. STEINKE: Yes.
21 THE COURT: William Brewer.
24 MR. STEINKE: No.
25 THE COURT: Cheryl Brown.

Vol 21 - 329
17:35:35 1 MR. STEINKE: Possible.
2 THE COURT: Connie Buford.
3 MR. STEINKE: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Marian Buehler.
5 MR. STEINKE: No.
6 THE COURT: Martin Burrell.
7 MR. STEINKE: No.
8 THE COURT: Barbara Mallory Caraway.
9 MR. STEINKE: No.
10 THE COURT: Duane Caraway.
12 THE COURT: Ken Carter.
13 MR. STEINKE: No.
14 THE COURT: I wouldn't let Mr. Carter testify since
17:35:55 15 he's been sitting here.
16 MR. STEINKE: That's why I said no. I'm just making
17 a point that although certain names cause you to change your
18 mind, that one you can't.
20 THE COURT: Richard Celli.
21 MR. STEINKE: No.
22 THE COURT: Hymen Childs.
23 MR. STEINKE: No.
24 THE COURT: Michael Collins.

Vol 21 - 330
17:36:13 1 THE COURT: Mark Cooks.
2 MR. STEINKE: No.
3 THE COURT: Carolyn Davis.
5 THE COURT: Yvonne Davis.
7 THE DEFENDANT: Michael Dulan.
8 MR. STEINKE: No.
9 THE COURT: Larry Duncan.
10 MR. STEINKE: No.
11 THE COURT: Walter Elcock.
13 THE COURT: William Emmons.
17:36:29 15 THE COURT: Derrick Evans.
16 MR. STEINKE: No.
17 THE COURT: Steve Flores.
18 MR. STEINKE: No.
19 THE COURT: Larry Fontana.
20 MR. STEINKE: No.
21 THE COURT: Joyce Forman.
23 THE COURT: Prentice Gary.
25 THE COURT: Diane Gibson.

Vol 21 - 331
17:36:44 1 MR. STEINKE: No.
2 THE COURT: Rick Gillis.
3 MR. STEINKE: No.
4 THE COURT: Lonnie Goodman.
6 THE COURT: C.B. Green.
7 MR. STEINKE: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Randy Hampton.
9 MR. STEINKE: No.
10 THE COURT: Fredrick Hannah.
12 THE COURT: David Henderson.
13 MR. STEINKE: No.
14 THE COURT: Alfred Herron.
17:37:00 15 MR. STEINKE: No.
16 THE COURT: Larry Hirsch.
18 THE COURT: Alfred Huntsberry.
19 MR. STEINKE: No.
20 THE COURT: Alphonso Jackson.
21 MR. STEINKE: No.
22 THE COURT: Franklyn Jenifer.
23 MR. STEINKE: No.
24 THE COURT: Jim Johnston.

Vol 21 - 332
17:37:14 1 THE COURT: Gwen Jones.
3 THE COURT: Jesse Jones.
5 THE COURT: Thomas Jones.
7 THE COURT: Johnnie King.
9 THE COURT: Daryl Kirkman.
11 THE COURT: Theodore Lee.
12 MR. STEINKE: No.
13 THE COURT: Jerome Lindsay.
14 MR. STEINKE: No.
17:37:31 15 THE COURT: David Lipscomb.
16 MR. STEINKE: No.
17 THE COURT: Robert Mack.
19 THE COURT: He is?
21 THE COURT: S.C. Nash.
22 MR. STEINKE: No.
23 THE COURT: Joseph Nash.
24 MR. STEINKE: No.
25 THE COURT: Lester Nevels.

Vol 21 - 333
2 THE COURT: Shirley Isom Newsome.
4 THE COURT: Donald O'Bannon.
6 THE COURT: Charles O'Neal.
8 THE COURT: Rick Parsons.
9 MR. STEINKE: No.
10 THE COURT: Edna Pemberton.
12 THE COURT: Diane Ragsdale.
13 MR. STEINKE: No.
14 THE COURT: Byron Reed.
17:38:02 15 MR. STEINKE: No. Possible.
16 THE COURT: Jim Reid.
18 THE COURT: Alton Scott.
19 MR. STEINKE: No.
20 THE COURT: Carolyn Smith.
21 MR. STEINKE: No.
22 THE COURT: Gloria Smith.
24 THE COURT: Melvin Smith.
25 MR. STEINKE: No.

Vol 21 - 334
17:38:15 1 THE COURT: Walter Smith.
2 MR. STEINKE: No.
3 THE COURT: Harold Steely.
5 THE COURT: Ronald Steinhart.
7 THE COURT: Vern Stockton.
8 MR. JACKSON: Possible.
9 THE COURT: Gail Terrell.
11 THE COURT: Jim Thornton.
12 MR. STEINKE: No.
13 THE COURT: Rev. Otis Tucker.
17:38:31 15 THE COURT: David Urby.
16 MR. STEINKE: No.
17 THE COURT: Linda Walker.
19 THE COURT: Michael Walker.
20 MR. STEINKE: No.
21 THE COURT: Clem Washington.
23 THE COURT: James Washington.
25 THE COURT: James Watts.

Vol 21 - 335
2 THE COURT: Chris Wells.
3 MR. STEINKE: No.
4 THE COURT: Keith Whitmore.
5 MR. STEINKE: Did I miss one?
6 THE COURT: You have got a few on the next page.
7 MR. STEINKE: No.
8 THE COURT: Levi Williams.
9 MR. STEINKE: No.
10 THE COURT: Ron White.
11 MR. STEINKE: No.
12 THE COURT: Scott Whitmore.
13 MR. STEINKE: No.
14 THE COURT: Sonny Williams.
17:39:06 15 MR. STEINKE: No.
16 THE COURT: George Wilson.
17 MR. STEINKE: No.
18 THE COURT: Connie Yates.
19 MR. STEINKE: No.
20 THE COURT: We ended with a bang.
21 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am. But I have a second
22 supplemental.
23 THE COURT: I'm in.
24 Leon Backes.

Vol 21 - 336
17:39:19 1 THE COURT: Leo Chaney.
2 MR. STEINKE: No.
4 MR. STEINKE: He's on everybody's list, but yes.
5 THE COURT: I don't think anybody said yes.
6 MR. STEINKE: Possibly.
7 THE COURT: All right. Hammond Perot.
8 MR. STEINKE: Possibly.
9 THE COURT: Rodriguez.
10 MR. STEINKE: No.
11 THE COURT: Stone.
12 MR. STEINKE: No.
13 THE COURT: Is that it?
14 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am, that's it.
17:39:44 15 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. That was very
16 helpful.
17 All right. Is there anything else we need to take up
18 today?
19 (No response.)
20 THE COURT: All right. Then Monday at 8:15. We
21 will cover the defense exhibits, admitting them in bulk as we
22 did with the government exhibits. So everybody except
23 Mr. Greene be here at 8:15. Mr. Greene will be here at 8:00.
24 MR. GREENE: I absolutely will, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Y'all have a nice weekend.

Vol 21 - 337
17:40:18 1 INDEX
VOLUME 21
2 AUGUST 7, 2009
4 WITNESS NAME Page
5 LAURA MILLER
Cross By Mr. Greene 20
6
Re-Direct By Ms. Saldana 53
7
Re-Cross By Mr. Vital 77
8
Re-Cross By Mr. Jackson 93
9
Re-Direct By Ms. Saldana 101
10
KATHY NEALY
11 Direct By Mr. Meacham 109
12 Cross By Mr. Vital 198
13 Cross By Mr. Steinke 248
14 Cross By Mr. Greene 280
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Vol 21 - 338
1 GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT Page
2 GX 1714 Identified 161

E-mail between Bill Fisher and Kathy Nealy
3
GX 668 Identified 167
4 Don Hill's calendear

Don Hill's calendar
6
7 E-mail string between Don Hill, Glenda Aguirre and
Steve Williams
8
9 Kathy Nealy's calendar

Letter from Darren Reagan and BSEAT to Dallas City
11 Council 8-24-04

Allen McGill's calendar
13
14 Invoices, receipts, checks and general correspondence
re Kathy Nealy & Associates
15
16 Official action city council 10-27-04
17
DEFENSE EXHIBIT Page
18
BP-270 Identified 140
19 Contract with J&L Security
20 BP- 271 Identified 142

Contract with J&L Security
21
BP-272 Identified 143
22 Contract for J&L Security
23 BP-54 Identified 231

E-mail from Bill Fisher to Doug Dykman
24
DLX 1211 Identified 288
25 Newspaper article

Vol 21 - 339
1 DLX 86 Identified 296

Audiotape
2 C E R T I F I C A T E:
3
I, P. Sue Engledow RPR/CSR, certify that the foregoing is
4 a transcript from the record of the proceedings in the
foregoing entitled matter.
5 I further certify that the transcript fees format comply
with those prescribed by the Court and the Judicial Conference
6 of the United States.
This the 31st day of May, 2010.
7
8 /S/P. Sue Engledow
9 ________________________________
P. SUE ENGLEDOW RPR/CSR No. 1170
10 Official Court Reporter
The Northern District of Texas
11 Dallas Division
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

340
< Dates > February 14, 176:16 $5,000 69:16
10-27-04 339:31 2002. 68:10 October 2004 $5,000. 143:1
3-2-04. 131:1 February 8, 2005 175:15 $50,000 123:13,
8-24-04 339:21 242:12 October 25, 253:13, 253:19,
August '03 66:5 January 1st 2004. 178:8 269:24, 270:12
August 12, 2004 70:25 October 27, 2003 '01 7:15
205:23 January 2004 144:16 '04 7:12, 297:23
August 12, 2004. 43:23, 51:19 October 27, 2004 '04. 66:7
205:22 January. 191:10, 197:4, 216:14, '05 80:13
August 15th 241:14 225:18, 239:1, '05. 7:12
168:14 July 2003 140:18 243:15 '06 7:8
August 16, 2004 July, august. October 27th '08. 7:8
168:22, 205:22, 138:18 171:13, 174:25, '1 8:8
207:19, 218:9 July. 138:19, 177:1, 178:5, '10 7:15, 8:8
August 16, 2004. 138:20 191:20, 194:12, '11 6:19, 7:8,
206:15 June 29, 2004 240:5, 247:14 7:21
August 16th 167:8 October 27th. '12 7:15, 8:8
206:25 June 29th 167:21 238:10 '13 7:15, 7:21,
August 2002 March. 152:5 October 4, 2004 8:8
53:24 May 2004 241:17 192:4 '14 6:14, 7:19
August 2003 May 30, '06 October 7, 2004 '15 6:14, 7:12,
65:15 11:14 193:20 8:8
August 24, 2003 May, 2010. October. 178:11 '16 6:23
141:9 340:11 September 20 '17 6:19, 7:21,
August 24, 2003. may. 54:3, 272:14 8:2
141:10 138:3, 194:24 September 23, '18 6:19, 6:23,
August 24, 2004 November 10, 2004 37:12 7:9, 7:17, 8:8
270:14 2004 281:12 September 3, '19 7:13, 8:12
August 24th November 16, 2003 218:24 '2 7:6, 7:23,
143:17 2004 277:1 September. 8:6, 8:8, 8:12
August 24th. November 16, 181:15 '20 7:17, 8:2
144:6 2004. 188:19 "one 233:7 '21 6:14, 6:23,
August 25, 2004 November 16th "seven 142:2 8:2
178:13 280:23 "three 233:8 '23 6:14
August 25th November 9 240:4 $1,000. 190:21 '24 6:14, 8:2,
180:5 November, $17. 142:21, 8:9, 8:12
August 27, 2003 december 267:2 144:1 '25 7:3
144:9, 144:17 October 12 207:3 $175 130:14, '26 7:3, 8:2
August 27, 2003. October 12, 2004 194:17, 257:3, '27 6:23, 7:23,
258:8 171:7, 206:1, 266:17, 266:23, 8:5, 8:9
August 31, 2004 207:19, 220:5 274:18 '29 6:14, 7:19,
174:8 October 12, $2,500 190:19 7:21, 7:23, 8:3,
August 4, 2003. 2004. 218:9 $20,000 257:11, 8:9, 8:12
142:9 October 14, 2004 258:2, 267:25, '3 7:15, 8:12
August. 138:21, 232:9, 234:6 268:3, 271:15, '30 6:12, 6:23,
178:11 October 14th. 279:12, 279:14, 8:2
December, 237:19 279:19 '31 6:15, 7:13,
january 269:13 October 16, 2004 $32,000. 257:9, 7:19, 8:6
February 14, 220:5 281:21 '32 8:2, 8:11,
2002 68:18, 69:4 October 1st $400,000 164:22 8:13
341
'33 6:15, 6:23, '60 7:21, 8:6 '87. 6:15, 7:14 100,000 270:4
7:3, 8:6 '61 7:22, 8:5 '88 6:1, 7:6 1000 7:4
'34 6:15, 6:24, '62 7:20, 7:22, '88. 6:18 10001 82:17,
7:9, 7:13, 8:13 8:5, 8:20 '89 6:1, 6:21, 101:20
'35 8:9 '64 7:10, 7:22, 7:11 10001. 55:20,
'36 7:4, 7:19, 8:21 '9 8:6, 8:8 55:21, 78:9
7:21, 7:23, 8:3 '64. 8:13 '90 7:25 1005 7:4
'37 6:19, 7:4, '65 6:21, 7:2, '90. 6:22 101 338:13
8:3, 8:9 7:10 '91 7:7, 7:22, 1024 7:4
'38 6:24, 8:2, '65. 6:19 8:5 1029 7:4
8:9 '66 7:20, 7:24, '92 7:2, 7:11, 1035 7:4
'39 7:17, 7:24, 8:21 7:25 109 338:16
8:3, 8:6 '66. 7:13 '92. 8:5 10th 238:14,
'4 7:6, 7:15, '67 7:2 '93 6:1, 7:7, 239:15, 239:18,
7:23, 8:6 '67. 8:21 7:25 239:20, 281:11
'40 7:3, 8:5 '68 6:11, 6:21, '94 6:1, 7:22 1100 7:6
'41 6:15, 6:19, 7:10, 8:10 '95 6:13 115 6:8
7:19, 7:24, 8:9 '69 6:11, 7:10, '95. 7:7 117 6:5
'41. 6:24 7:22, 7:24 '96 6:13, 7:11, 1170 2:30,
'42 6:19, 8:6 '7 7:15 166:7 340:15
'43 6:19, 7:19, '70 7:2, 7:20 '96. 8:1, 8:7 11:05 109:10
8:6 '71 6:21, 7:20, '97 7:11, 7:16, 12 109:22,
'44 7:24 7:25 7:22 110:5, 120:8,
'45 7:20 '72 6:21 '97. 166:7 120:20, 252:8
'45. 8:11 '73 7:25, 8:4, '98 6:11, 7:3, 12. 120:11
'46 7:4, 7:24, 8:10 7:16 1200 7:8, 7:10
8:3 '74 7:20, 7:25, '99. 7:11, 7:16, 1205 7:8
'47 7:17, 8:3, 8:4, 8:10, 8:20 7:22 1211 85:2,
8:6, 8:9 '75 8:10 (1) 1:11, 1:36 85:25, 288:16,
'48 7:5, 7:13, '76 7:25, 8:16 (10) 1:15, 2:20 339:48
7:18, 7:20 '76. 7:20, 8:10 (2) 1:12, 1:44 1211. 37:2
'49 7:21, 7:24, '77 7:5, 7:22, (3) 1:13, 2:3 124 6:5
8:3, 8:9 8:7 (7) 1:14, 2:12 129 6:5
'5 7:17 '78 7:25, 8:4 ---ooo--- 337:2 12th 174:19,
'50 7:13, 7:21, '79 7:2, 7:5, .O. 2:31, 70:23, 174:22, 177:1,
8:3, 8:9 7:14, 7:22 71:2 207:1, 207:2,
'51 7:18, 8:3 '8 7:23 /S/P 340:13 207:4
'52 8:3 '80 7:5, 7:14, 1300 7:12
'53 7:10, 7:24 7:15, 7:25, 8:5 1301 7:12
'54 6:21, 7:5, '81. 8:4 <0> 1307 7:12
7:10, 7:18 '82 6:13, 6:15, 000 194:17 131 6:5
'55 7:13, 7:24, 7:10, 7:14, 7:16 138 6:9
8:3, 8:9 '83 7:6, 7:22 139 6:9
'57 6:21, 7:21 '84 7:6 <1> 14 9:13, 10:25
'58 7:5, 7:6, '84. 7:3 1 6:7 14-1 119:19
7:21, 8:3, 8:18, '85 7:11, 7:16 1,500 169:25 14. 181:23
8:20 '86 6:1, 7:2, 1,700 156:4, 140 339:36
'59 7:5, 7:14 7:6, 8:5 170:2 1400. 7:14
'59. 7:18 '87 6:18, 7:6, 100 6:7, 6:8, 141. 6:9
'6 7:6 7:11 166:18, 270:6 142 339:39
342
143 339:42 1983 111:5 175:18, 181:18, 27. 8:25
15 10:4, 19:18, 1984. 109:24 191:6, 195:10, 271 140:20,
88:13, 296:8, 199 168:9 196:6, 213:18, 140:22, 339:39
296:10, 300:10 1991 110:24 219:17, 223:19, 272 140:22
15,000 222:12 1992. 110:24 266:10, 269:10, 272. 140:21
1500. 7:15 1996 152:3, 272:14, 275:14 276 6:13
1516 8:25, 9:4 254:16 2004. 20:21, 277 6:13
152-A 6:11 1996. 129:9 44:1, 51:20, 27th 176:19
1528 5:23 1997 111:21 73:21, 219:9, 280 338:22
153 6:11 1:30 160:12, 219:15, 229:19, 288 339:48
1544 7:15 182:24, 187:11, 266:13 28th 176:19
1566 7:15 187:12 2005 51:24, 29-A 6:14
158. 167:3 1:30. 159:18, 52:3, 191:6, 29-B 6:15
1589 221:11, 159:22, 182:20 257:6 29-C 6:15
339:30 2007 175:14, 2900 171:9
1589. 221:14 278:10 291 5:25
1596 3:12, 3:15, <2> 2024 187:15, 296 340:1
3:22, 4:3, 4:20, 2 9:13, 10:25, 339:26 29th 176:19
6:3, 10:11 129:18, 130:11, 206 6:11 2nd 176:16
1596. 10:10, 187:20 20th 181:16,
10:17 2. 123:6, 215:1 182:12, 183:1,
16. 9:13, 10:25 20 124:19, 187:6, 187:13, <3>
1600 7:17 250:1, 269:15, 275:13 3 39:23, 130:19,
1601 7:17 338:5 2110 2:24 288:18
161 339:3 20,000 269:19, 214.659.8600 3,000 156:4,
1617 7:17 281:18 1:33 170:3
167 6:11, 339:6 200 6:12 214.747.7148 3. 64:1
16th 285:13 2000 1:46, 8:2 2:17 30 42:5, 181:15
1700 7:19 2001 2:6, 62:22, 214.753.2325 30,000 96:17
171 339:9 256:18 2:33 30. 11:7
1714 339:3 2002 53:13, 214/220-9335 3000 8:5
1714. 161:3 70:20, 70:22, 2:26 302 11:14
174 339:12 82:5, 120:1 214/651-6250 302s 12:17,
175 91:22, 2003 20:20, 1:41 12:22
339:16 51:22, 125:25, 214/953-6832 2:8 303 6:14
178 339:19 126:1, 131:2, 221 339:30 307 339:19
18-A 6:14 131:10, 131:15, 224 6:11 307. 178:10
180 193:25 134:6, 143:19, 226 6:11 3100s 8:6
1800s 7:21 154:14, 211:4, 228 6:12 312-A 6:14
181 339:23 211:18, 212:1, 229 6:12 3130 174:6,
187 339:26 212:19, 219:8, 231 339:45 339:12
1890 251:3 287:13 231. 187:8 315 181:20,
1890. 120:15 2003. 18:14, 2351 2:23 339:23
19 38:16 51:17, 70:20, 24. 188:6 31st 340:11
1900 7:23 82:5, 210:24, 248 338:20 32 5:25
1906 86:13 213:12, 219:10 25 272:25 32,000 266:19,
1906. 88:22 2004 38:16, 250 6:13 267:1, 268:8,
1978 110:8 131:8, 151:22, 250. 171:2, 282:7
198 338:18 152:11, 152:16, 264:12 32,000. 266:22,
1982. 111:4 152:24, 160:25, 257 6:13 281:20
343
3200 8:8 5-30 11:14 243:17
3209 175:22, 5. 110:6, 74. 243:13
339:16 158:18, 229:8 75201 2:7 <9>
3251 62:19 50 6:5, 270:6 75202 2:16 90 166:17
3254. 76:15 50. 270:11 75219 1:40 900 2:15
3283 5:25 5000 8:11 75220 2:25 90s 113:9
3284 5:25 5046. 6:4 75242 1:32 921 7:3
3296 5:21 50711 2:31 75250 2:32 93 338:11
33 6:6 5100 8:12, 8:16 76006 1:48 97-A 6:13
330 6:15 521 6:18 77 338:9 99. 8:18
34 2:24, 6:6 5235. 8:16 770 2:14 9:00 168:15
35 6:6, 111:1, 53 338:7
118:6, 162:23, 530 6:18
163:18 5300 8:17 <8> <A>
350 164:22 533 6:18 8 78:15, 82:17, A-1 129:22
360 193:25 5387. 8:17 115:2, 161:20, A. 2:21
360. 192:17 540 6:18 163:16, 163:20, Abbey 320:20
37 6:6 5450 242:11 177:21, 192:20, ability 191:17
38 6:6 582 6:18 193:6 able 22:13,
3811 1:38 5863 8:21 8. 11:5, 162:3, 74:19, 166:19,
39 6:6 5875 8:20 245:6, 245:11 172:1, 192:14,
3:07-CR-289-M 5876 8:20 800 6:23 224:11, 226:13
1:5 5878 6:1 80s 113:2, above 143:6,
3:30. 230:11 5879. 6:1 116:4, 118:11 176:20
5880 5:21 81-A 7:5 Absolutely 24:8,
5881. 5:21 814 6:23 45:23, 107:21,
<4> 5th 176:7 817/303-2141 116:2, 118:19,
403 186:10 1:49 119:22, 122:22,
404(a 186:15 82 89:7, 89:21, 127:6, 155:23,
404(b 186:10 <6> 92:2, 92:19, 199:9, 231:12,
404s 186:16 6 63:2, 63:7 101:3 245:2, 336:25
408. 6:16 600 1:39, 1:47, 82. 89:2 abstain 64:5,
41 6:5 6:19 86 295:24, 64:10
41. 6:6 663 58:14 296:14, 296:15, accept 69:25
45 163:4 667. 6:20 340:1 acceptable 6:25
45. 162:23 668 167:3, 86. 295:22, access 255:19,
48 7:10 171:2, 187:8, 295:23 256:1
48-hours 326:15 218:24, 264:12, 8:00 11:2 accordance 8:22
4th 176:7 339:6, 339:9 8:00. 336:24 According 182:14
67 124:20, 8:15 4:16, 11:1, account 68:19,
181:13 11:4, 11:10 69:5, 92:13
<5> 6761. 299:20 8:15. 336:21, accounted 69:8,
5 110:8, 113:18, 6th 176:8 336:24 69:15, 70:2,
113:20, 114:5, 8:30 167:11, 92:8
114:19, 120:3, 168:15, 264:16, accounting 92:14
156:6, 163:19, <7> 299:25, 300:3 accurate 48:6,
229:7, 229:9, 7. 235:16 8:30 a.m. 1:16, 48:25, 74:8,
229:12, 229:15, 700 6:21 3:4 253:3
229:18, 230:1, 72. 175:22 8:30. 171:7, accused 11:18,
295:18 74 243:15, 300:24 37:14, 37:24,
344
38:19, 38:23 145:17 180:8, 240:4 Agent 15:25,
across 157:14, address 200:10, advised 16:8, 18:13, 18:21,
158:11, 158:20, 214:8, 254:21, 182:4, 245:14 105:25, 281:11,
159:6, 159:11, 325:12 advising 118:14 281:12, 286:6
222:3, 226:14, addressed 32:2, advisor 118:11, ago 107:8,
271:25 217:18 118:14, 250:7, 110:9, 278:11
act 12:18, addressing 250:10 agree 15:3,
60:14, 170:21 29:25, 178:19, Advisors 94:22, 29:24, 32:15,
acting 60:18 232:16, 271:3 94:25, 124:7, 33:20, 36:17,
action 40:13, adduce 12:5 124:12, 125:16, 40:19, 44:10,
41:19, 50:14, adjourn 299:23 128:20, 128:24, 47:1, 51:18,
65:2, 85:4, adjudicate 324:4 132:3, 147:13, 123:13, 141:24,
86:8, 174:24, adjusted 158:5 150:2 219:16, 249:6,
221:17, 221:20, adjustment advisory 59:23 249:10, 250:12,
289:2, 339:31 157:20 advocating 262:1, 262:2,
actions 34:9, administration 148:13 275:25, 276:7,
35:13, 36:1, 111:1 affable 96:23 278:21, 281:23,
44:16, 76:14, admissible affairs 112:3, 293:20
102:8, 102:9, 184:15 249:22 Agreed 4:18,
184:5, 289:19, admission 155:13 affected 34:19, 41:4, 99:24,
289:20 admit 231:18 101:17 108:1, 257:10,
active 115:8 admitted 4:7, affidavit 64:9 259:13, 260:1,
actively 110:13 4:14, 4:19, affirmative 263:20, 263:21
activities 5:18, 5:23, 6:3, 35:9, 44:17 agreeing 4:25,
118:23, 285:10 7:9, 10:9, 12:2, Affordable 54:7, 149:19
actor 45:14, 20:3, 20:5, 54:17, 56:2, agreement 19:18,
46:8, 46:24 55:22, 140:24, 56:3, 56:18, 106:22, 107:25,
acts 262:25 231:22, 296:14 56:21, 57:4, 108:5, 108:12,
actual 66:15, admitting 57:7, 78:11, 108:20, 129:13,
144:8, 170:15, 148:16, 336:22 78:22, 79:4, 142:2, 194:16,
170:24 advance 108:21, 82:10, 102:15, 202:16, 203:15,
Acy 301:20 117:12, 117:14, 112:17, 116:23, 249:23, 259:19,
Adam 305:14 117:24, 118:3 209:8 259:22, 263:19,
add 19:21, advantage 256:5 afraid 157:15 274:9, 301:11
80:10, 318:12 advice 9:16, African-american agrees 257:2
addition 111:14, 11:15, 11:22, 73:9, 241:10, Aguirre 174:8,
112:15, 121:20, 16:6, 16:10, 241:18 302:1, 316:24,
122:11, 127:2, 16:19, 16:22, African-american 339:13
165:8, 165:19, 16:24, 17:4, s 28:15 ahead 24:15,
168:2, 170:5, 22:17, 25:23, after-school 43:6, 55:25,
197:23, 204:8, 26:17, 26:21, 128:14 70:21, 76:6,
205:9, 237:8, 32:11, 33:11, afternoon 11:13, 79:13, 80:22,
239:9, 257:10 34:13, 35:11, 187:11, 248:21, 130:18, 203:25,
additional 35:12, 35:13, 280:7, 280:8 205:1, 205:5,
123:19, 142:22, 35:22, 35:23, afterwards 217:9, 226:2,
170:11, 194:12, 36:2, 42:16, 265:7, 268:19 228:17, 228:18
204:4, 207:15, 92:14, 103:24, age 116:21 Airlines 100:7,
225:6, 228:1, 146:20, 181:6, Agenda 21:19, 111:25, 112:2,
325:7 298:11, 298:16 22:10, 243:13, 249:3
additionally advise 25:18, 243:15, 295:16 Airport 73:7,
345
96:7 295:5, 301:18, answers 185:7 26:10, 43:21,
Akins 313:19 301:23, 302:1, Anthony 303:3, 43:22, 51:17,
Alan 306:5 303:5, 306:12, 320:24 81:21
Alcorn 249:11, 306:13, 306:24, anticipating appointee 42:22,
328:4 313:6, 316:6, 74:20 44:5, 114:25
alert 108:25 316:12, 316:24 Antonio 294:18, appointees 73:7
alerted 108:20 alternative 294:24, 295:4, appointment
Alex 307:19 237:13 295:7 50:15, 51:14,
Alfred 331:15, although 14:24, Anybody 16:22, 82:10, 82:19,
331:19 19:15, 240:3, 65:7, 77:7, 117:6, 119:3,
alleged 285:10 247:7, 324:11, 80:7, 80:25, 182:20, 228:24
allegedly 329:18 81:24, 208:4, appreciate 10:3,
205:19, 212:21, Alton 333:19 208:15, 230:1, 10:7, 19:23,
284:17 AM. 109:10 264:19, 274:22, 156:22, 157:25,
Allen 181:21, amended 6:5, 277:10, 301:25, 219:13, 325:22
181:25, 182:7, 318:12 336:6 approach 5:13,
242:13, 272:17, Amendment Anyway 43:10, 46:13, 54:2,
309:12, 312:22, 107:10, 107:17, 52:20, 148:8, 301:13
315:7, 316:9, 108:3 150:14, 271:13 appropriate
339:24 America 1:5, apart 233:4, 23:16, 23:22,
Alley 328:6, 199:18, 199:20 234:9 44:17, 50:20,
328:8 American 100:7, apartment 50:21, 54:21,
allow 108:14, 111:25, 112:2, 121:19, 122:6, 59:7, 75:25,
262:13, 301:23 249:3 123:20, 126:18, 324:5, 326:14
allowable 72:11 among 209:7, 222:22 approval 114:23,
allowed 60:9, 249:1, 250:2, apartments 223:8 161:21, 234:2,
68:13, 104:18 258:14 apologize 80:11, 259:8
allowing 16:18 amount 14:16, 96:3, 96:4, approve 235:5,
Allyn 308:21 69:25, 80:21, 325:5, 325:14 240:14, 248:13
Almost 44:8, 122:25 apology 325:12, approved 31:19,
51:24, 192:17, analogy 23:13 325:20 32:1, 38:24,
266:11, 266:15 Andrea 311:12, Apparently 39:17, 45:2,
alone 183:16, 316:7, 318:1 17:22, 39:15, 81:14, 98:12,
274:3, 274:7, Andy 258:18, 178:24, 246:5, 99:2, 149:9,
278:1 258:19, 259:4, 247:6 150:14, 189:5,
aloud 38:4 259:17, 302:12, appear 101:11 194:2, 214:10,
alphabetical 302:22 appearance 66:14 214:21, 216:14,
319:10 ANGELA 2:21 appearances 216:17, 226:14,
Alphonso 331:21 Ann 308:15, 66:19 227:2, 236:14,
already 4:13, 315:22 appeared 70:6 236:15, 236:18,
7:8, 15:14, announced 89:1 appears 89:9 238:9, 239:11,
15:22, 18:5, announcement application 240:18, 240:21,
20:3, 26:3, 110:24 225:22, 226:4 246:3, 257:11,
28:10, 30:8, Annually 118:15 applies 14:23, 257:13
38:14, 47:21, answered 18:16, 185:7 Approximately
56:16, 64:14, 32:18, 102:2, apply 15:7, 27:9, 110:4,
67:2, 148:7, 177:1, 185:5, 60:6, 159:25 162:11, 164:16,
152:3, 172:11, 229:17, 291:6 appoint 53:15, 191:3, 196:5
172:12, 190:7, answering 66:13, 115:7 architects 132:7
243:7, 256:3, 206:5, 212:5 appointed 26:9, architectural
346
126:23, 164:3 assigned 22:16 authorities bang 335:21
architecture assistance 71:14 13:10 Bank 276:9,
137:17 assistant 18:19 Authority 73:25, 276:10, 313:12
Archuletta 302:2 assisted 249:6 74:10, 74:16 banking 199:13,
area 21:15, Associates authorized 322:1 276:2, 276:22
90:10, 90:13, 86:16, 89:9, Available 67:6 bankruptcy
90:15, 90:20, 92:4, 145:20, Ave 2:6 13:15, 13:16
145:17, 195:4, 145:21, 187:19, Avenue 171:9 banks 185:19,
224:24, 254:6, 187:24, 247:22, avoiding 66:19 275:22, 276:2,
254:13, 273:19, 254:21, 272:1, away 112:7, 276:8, 276:9,
290:7, 296:21 339:28 162:11, 185:21, 276:19
areas 76:19 Association 185:23, 186:6, Barbara 1:20,
arena 249:19 49:2, 182:5 186:21, 236:12, 329:9
argue 12:21, Assume 35:11, 237:21 barn 15:21
176:5 39:6, 82:6, awful 201:25 Barnett 302:4
argument 13:1, 224:7, 273:17 Barr 302:6
15:4 assumes 58:22 barracks 126:21
argumentative assuming 77:9, <B> Barry 313:7
203:21, 204:13 324:10 Backes 45:3, Based 14:10,
arisen 264:24 assumption 40:23 45:6, 45:13, 35:13, 48:13,
Arlington 1:48, assure 19:4 46:8, 46:24, 62:6, 65:8,
143:24 Atlanta 118:24 47:1, 47:5, 69:14, 69:18,
arose 140:13 attached 101:11, 47:9, 47:16, 87:7, 136:7,
around 35:23, 166:2 124:10, 125:7, 141:15, 141:16,
47:8, 49:11, attendance 144:23, 146:9, 150:12, 166:19,
51:9, 52:6, 188:13, 280:25 152:16, 171:21, 186:12, 186:25,
69:4, 111:1, attended 121:3 190:1, 190:12, 208:23, 261:20,
113:10, 194:9, attention 14:1, 190:16, 215:14, 262:11, 262:14
198:6, 209:18, 161:2 215:17, 259:20, bash 240:15
228:9, 266:10, attorney-client 259:21, 270:8, Basham 302:8
294:7 13:12, 13:13, 271:4, 293:7, basically 21:14,
arrange 121:2 13:17, 22:15, 293:10, 293:17, 31:5, 119:5,
arrives 117:15 26:18, 104:19 293:21, 293:24, 165:4, 240:22,
Article 37:6, attorneys 18:19, 293:25, 294:1, 257:11
38:15, 38:19, 108:17, 145:23, 294:4, 314:23, basis 34:9,
39:3, 39:13, 220:18 318:7, 318:10, 56:13, 68:3,
39:20, 40:21, attracting 273:1 318:14, 318:15, 148:16, 186:13
40:24, 41:17, attributed 320:22, 335:25 bathroom 77:10
41:24, 65:14, 17:11, 17:13, background Bayoud 315:18
85:16, 103:23, 69:16 248:25 became 58:5,
129:18, 288:17, audience 145:2, backing 199:22, 158:22, 297:3
290:4, 290:16, 145:13 200:1 become 57:19,
339:49 Audiotape backtrack 173:23 83:16, 281:11
articulate 296:15, 340:2 bad 45:14, 46:7, becomes 128:7,
208:16 August 18:14, 46:24, 47:2, 169:16, 277:23
asks 16:22, 168:11, 207:1, 50:11, 121:18 begin 314:10
108:4, 133:20 270:10 Baker 2:5 beginning 6:7,
asserted 136:20, August 7, 2009 balance 4:19, 117:23, 235:12,
139:10 1:10, 3:3 5:22, 281:25 299:9, 299:12
assessment 41:2 auspices 36:22 balanced 18:4 begun 111:15
347
behalf 4:17, 145:15, 177:14, body 61:10, branch 276:2,
4:25, 34:24, 258:9, 273:1 61:13, 61:19 276:9, 276:21
65:17, 69:24, bigger 162:22 bonds 218:6, brand 29:3
117:25, 118:2, Billy 151:10, 268:24, 268:25, Brandon 114:21,
147:12, 150:1 321:20 269:2, 269:5, 161:22, 161:25,
behavior 38:20, birthday 75:19, 269:6, 269:9, 162:7, 244:21,
38:24, 103:7 75:22, 189:19, 269:12, 269:14 244:24, 245:10,
behind 35:15, 189:20, 189:23, Bonnie 91:1, 245:14, 264:4
272:2, 284:4 189:25, 190:2, 91:7, 162:21 break 76:8,
beholder 317:9 190:11, 190:14, bonus 130:17 88:10, 88:21,
belabor 30:11, 190:17, 239:23, book 117:21 89:1, 89:14,
41:17 240:3, 240:15, Booker 328:18 89:21, 157:8,
believed 82:15, 248:13 Booty 327:21 159:17, 159:22
292:17, 292:19 Bishop 302:12, Boston 303:5 breath 160:11
believes 16:13, 302:22 bother 274:24, Brent 303:24,
26:22 bit 18:9, 19:22, 275:2 308:11
Belt 328:10, 30:24, 76:8, bottom 60:13, Brett 312:18
328:12 109:25, 117:4, 63:7, 63:9, Brewer 328:22
bench 10:14, 117:10, 130:18, 92:1, 123:7, bribe 253:20,
10:17, 42:2, 132:22, 156:21, 141:12, 144:2, 277:11, 278:18
76:5, 100:21 157:10, 158:6, 174:10, 188:24, bribery 79:22,
bench. 42:4, 162:22, 169:8, 225:23, 232:9, 278:16
42:18, 76:9, 172:20, 179:15, 264:13 bribing 277:8,
77:16, 106:10, 210:9, 212:1, Botts 2:5 277:10
109:2 225:8, 261:3, bound 302:16 Brief 76:4,
benefit 57:6, 275:20 bounded 90:15 77:23, 117:20,
202:23, 203:14 Black 111:7, bow 237:23 230:14
benefited 57:2 111:8, 182:4, Box 2:31, 70:23, briefed 209:16,
Benitez 302:10, 302:24 71:2 210:12
316:15 blame 279:16, boycott 276:18 briefing 13:8,
Benson 111:3 279:18 boycotting 276:8 65:2, 117:21,
Bernice 307:21, Bland 328:16 boycotts 276:21 209:24, 210:1,
316:17, 322:15 Blaydes 303:1 Boyd 328:20 210:15, 212:7,
Berry 328:14 block 176:20 boys 52:11 214:2, 214:4,
Besides 54:15, Blow 188:7 BP 213:11 214:6, 214:8,
169:21, 278:15 blowup 145:16 BP- 339:39 217:22, 217:23,
best 25:23, Blvd 1:38 BP-270 140:20, 218:7
227:21, 227:22 Board 49:18, 140:22, 140:25, briefings 211:14
bet 230:10 58:11, 72:24, 339:36 briefly 87:2,
Beth 312:5 73:1, 73:8, BP-271 142:7 198:24
better 46:1, 76:21, 94:10, BP-272 143:13, bright 245:1
137:23, 145:16, 94:12, 94:19, 339:42 Bring 19:10,
155:21, 159:23, 94:22, 95:6, BP-37 208:19, 25:18, 107:12,
160:11, 273:2 96:13, 100:7, 212:19, 213:12, 121:21, 132:5,
Beverly 303:6, 114:11, 114:12, 213:21, 213:25, 132:23, 199:21,
317:15, 319:13, 125:20, 128:19, 214:19, 214:25, 227:18, 228:21,
321:1, 328:24 128:24, 259:11, 245:21 228:22, 230:15,
beyond 23:8, 259:14, 259:17, BP-54 231:18, 273:14, 296:20,
23:20 303:3, 320:24 235:25, 339:45 322:10
big 111:18, boards 114:11 BP-57 243:8 bringing 100:19,
348
203:17 96:13, 124:9, 246:6, 250:25, 259:3, 259:13,
broad 90:10 177:16, 250:4, 258:8, 291:9, 264:4
broke 88:21, 289:2, 299:1, 301:2 Carolyn 330:4,
270:10 299:3 Calling 3:25, 333:21
broken 246:16 business. 59:11 40:1, 40:7, Carpenter
broker 233:5 businesses 57:6, 288:19, 301:23, 303:18, 325:9,
Brooke 303:5 90:19, 171:22, 318:23, 319:3, 326:1, 326:5
Brooks 317:15, 172:14, 249:11, 324:25 Carrie 307:4
319:13, 328:24 250:3 calls 64:19, Carroll 317:24,
brought 45:10, busy 219:20, 104:4, 205:13, 323:6
50:12, 123:2, 219:22 241:8, 261:19 Carry 83:18,
123:3, 145:17, Butler 303:14, Cameras 145:14 83:20
177:6, 196:16, 321:3, 321:5 Camp 161:6, carrying 65:17,
253:12, 258:11 button 157:3 162:19, 163:2, 84:2
Brown 329:1 buying 278:15 163:18, 185:19 Carter 110:18,
Bryant 303:8 Byron 333:15 campaign 67:8, 329:13, 329:15
BSEAT 186:6, 67:12, 69:8, case 9:4, 13:9,
186:20, 189:15, 70:12, 70:19, 14:3, 17:18,
276:1, 276:8, <C> 70:22, 71:3, 17:23, 17:25,
339:20 C. 1:44, 2:20 71:7, 71:22, 18:2, 61:21,
Buehler 329:5 calendar 167:3, 72:8, 75:25, 73:14, 79:2,
Buford 329:3 168:10, 171:1, 77:25, 78:6, 79:23, 125:10,
build 128:10, 175:25, 176:1, 110:14, 116:8, 137:5, 148:8,
169:24, 170:18, 176:2, 176:3, 116:10, 250:17 150:23, 150:24,
172:1, 179:23, 181:21, 182:14, campaigns 155:9, 165:2,
224:12, 224:21, 187:7, 201:17, 110:20, 111:3, 192:1, 201:23,
225:13, 229:1 201:19, 206:4, 113:4, 145:23, 202:3, 202:22,
builder 170:16, 209:12, 218:23, 255:15 202:23, 204:8,
224:12 218:24, 219:23, canceled 258:25 204:10, 205:12,
building 126:12, 220:3, 220:10, candy 325:14 228:10, 235:18,
170:15, 175:7 220:15, 272:16, Canon 303:16 251:25, 261:5,
builds 222:23 272:17, 339:10, capability 269:14, 302:18,
built 119:13, 339:17, 339:24 171:23 326:3
278:22 calendear 339:7 capacity 17:3, cases 60:25,
bulk 336:22 call 4:13, 8:25, 255:4 79:22, 208:13,
bullet 90:24 33:25, 34:5, Caraway 329:9, 276:8
bunch 18:15 34:18, 64:22, 329:11 Casey 303:10
Bureau 251:25 99:10, 106:8, care 117:17, cash 72:1, 242:6
Burgess 303:10 153:1, 153:4, 301:5 Casteel 303:20
Burrell 303:12, 169:24, 252:25, career 166:4 catch 154:24
329:7 255:17, 255:21, careful 17:14, cause 65:18,
Busch 5:9, 262:8, 267:14, 90:23, 91:4 156:19, 249:11,
10:11, 301:8 273:18, 273:20, Carlos 56:5, 250:2, 329:18
business 12:4, 287:18, 301:16, 308:23 caused 238:17
13:11, 13:22, 301:17, 301:18, Carol 114:21, causes 273:1
16:3, 40:13, 313:24, 326:12 145:20, 146:9, CDC 251:13,
41:20, 44:16, called 9:2, 161:22, 161:25, 251:15, 251:17,
56:18, 57:10, 10:9, 109:14, 162:7, 244:21, 253:17, 253:23,
85:4, 86:8, 129:2, 193:24, 244:24, 245:10, 253:25, 255:8
92:7, 92:12, 220:16, 221:21, 245:13, 258:14, Cdcs 251:19,
349
252:18, 252:20, 317:11, 319:5, 69:10, 69:11, 254:9
252:24 336:2 69:12, 69:15, civil 35:25,
Cedars 95:20 change 30:4, 69:23, 69:24, 250:13
Celli 329:21 31:2, 31:3, 70:6, 70:14, claim 324:2
Center 57:12, 65:24, 65:25, 70:15, 70:23, clarification
57:19, 58:16, 66:10, 79:5, 70:24, 72:5 147:14, 225:6
77:15, 111:25, 128:2, 128:3, checked 300:17 clarify 286:12
249:3 128:20, 137:20, checking 68:19 classified 28:14
Centex 56:9, 240:14, 302:19, checkmarks 78:15 classify 49:7,
56:10 329:18 checks 69:10, 49:8
CEO 13:23 changed 128:24, 70:2, 70:10, Claude 115:7
certain 32:21, 128:25, 147:17, 70:12, 92:13, CLAYTON-DECKARD
33:16, 49:18, 213:16 339:27 2:20
67:8, 161:11, changes 59:25, Cherrycrest clear 53:15,
172:12, 172:13, 163:2 216:2, 234:24, 62:6, 158:4,
184:5, 214:9, changing 295:17, 235:3, 235:5, 219:12, 286:11,
216:15, 265:25, 296:5 235:7, 235:16, 289:21, 290:2
307:18, 329:18 character 235:20, 236:2, clearer 194:11
Certainly 11:19, 324:20, 324:23, 236:14, 236:21, clearly 39:15,
16:1, 36:21, 324:25 237:8 57:9, 84:10
53:18, 94:2, characterization Cheryl 68:20, Clem 334:22
97:1, 181:15, 284:12 69:16, 69:21, clerks 322:9
285:20 characterize 69:22, 329:1 client 4:18,
certify 340:5, 29:22, 29:23, chief 14:4 17:2, 76:18,
340:8 71:19, 168:24 childhood 91:22, 111:20,
cetera 31:8, charge 28:22, 116:16, 116:18 112:2, 147:12,
49:19 203:16 children 156:11 198:13, 208:5,
CHAD 1:27 charged 106:15, Childs 304:6, 209:9, 212:23,
Chadwick 303:22, 106:25, 107:12, 329:23 215:15, 221:20,
316:2, 320:8, 137:5, 145:2, choice 307:15 221:23, 233:20,
321:7 148:11, 150:23, chosen 203:16 234:5, 235:25,
chair 19:20, 150:24, 151:11, Chris 304:21, 238:4, 238:22,
73:1, 73:2 151:15, 151:17, 309:4, 335:3 239:11, 239:23,
challenge 216:4 154:20, 201:22, Christ 179:22 241:17, 246:6,
challenged 202:3, 202:5, Christensen 247:8, 247:21,
170:17 202:14, 202:17, 37:3, 37:6, 256:12, 257:2,
challenges 202:21, 202:23, 39:21, 215:2, 272:13, 277:2,
268:20 204:8, 205:9, 232:11, 290:6, 314:8
Chambers 303:24 205:16, 205:17, 299:21 clientele 254:7
championed 205:18, 228:10, Christine 311:20 clients 111:18,
249:11, 250:2 260:24 church 23:12, 111:19, 112:1,
chance 89:20, charges 150:12, 122:5, 254:12 112:15, 114:18,
97:7, 198:11, 260:22, 286:13, circumstances 149:1, 166:16,
250:4 286:16 41:15, 72:22, 195:14, 197:12,
Chandler 304:5 charging 266:17, 283:18, 284:3 197:25, 215:4,
Chaney 62:3, 274:18 Cisneros 304:8, 215:11, 238:5,
91:16, 91:19, Charles 308:25, 314:11 249:1
148:2, 148:23, 333:7 cited 13:10 Cliff 70:23,
180:7, 216:7, Charter 14:1 cities 294:22 110:8, 110:16,
235:23, 317:4, check 69:3, citizens 102:22, 216:8
350
climbing 12:23 217:2, 221:8, 114:9, 165:22, 213:5, 214:21,
Clinton 110:25, 270:17, 276:10, 165:23, 298:13 222:1
117:11, 118:4 296:18 commit 246:14 complaint 50:10,
Clintons 117:11, Commandments commitment 83:3, 84:14,
117:25 246:17 170:1, 224:11, 84:24, 102:18
clip 296:15 comment 46:7, 282:2, 282:6 complaints 62:8,
Close 112:6, 46:11, 46:24, commitments 84:16
118:7, 124:19, 65:16, 66:6, 241:9, 242:6, complete 268:14
138:22, 160:20, 70:1, 231:8, 243:4, 281:24 completely
162:21, 166:17, 325:17 committed 325:23
196:20, 225:21, commenting 241:19, 245:1, completeness
266:16, 269:14, 324:18 246:16, 263:1 76:21
270:11, 270:12, comments 28:6, committee 212:2 complex 30:6,
270:13 28:7, 29:25, common 128:1 61:1, 121:19,
closed 269:6, 30:3, 47:15, communicate 122:6, 123:20
269:9 61:23, 65:9 29:8, 208:10, complexes 126:18
closely 152:23 Commer 318:17 208:12, 245:5 complicated 71:6
Closer 162:19, Commerce 276:10 communicated complied 35:23
163:4, 163:18 Commission 11:23, 202:18 comply 340:8
closing 268:24, 27:20, 28:2, communication component 156:1,
268:25, 269:2 28:4, 28:9, 104:4 169:9, 189:12,
clubhouse 128:13 30:4, 51:14, communications 189:13, 273:6
co-conspirator 52:14, 52:15, 11:22, 12:5, computer 2:38,
204:10, 205:11 53:16, 53:24, 108:9 70:16, 300:18
Code 30:4, 59:14, 59:17, companies concept 222:22,
30:13, 30:16, 59:23, 59:24, 139:18, 139:25, 223:19, 225:13,
30:24, 59:24, 60:5, 60:21, 140:3, 140:4 225:18, 226:12,
66:12, 66:18, 60:22, 113:15, Company 21:4, 227:2, 261:23
84:13, 91:21, 113:16, 114:6, 21:5, 111:23, conceptualized
199:2, 199:4, 114:9, 114:12, 125:18, 125:20, 223:18, 224:13
200:12 114:19, 115:17, 128:20, 134:3, concern 20:2,
colleagues 127:24, 128:6, 134:4, 134:7, 65:18, 107:17,
21:23, 65:4 196:20, 200:6, 140:7, 140:10, 164:13, 169:2,
College 162:20 257:13, 297:24 140:11, 141:6, 169:16, 179:1,
Collins 329:25 Commissioner 141:12, 141:17, 179:21, 179:24,
Collinsworth 42:20, 43:1, 149:16, 249:2, 179:25, 273:13,
304:10 43:14, 43:18, 256:15, 260:16, 273:14, 325:18
colloquy 11:17 44:9, 110:17, 265:13, 271:25 concerned 65:23,
column 313:20 113:19, 114:13, compare 11:8 172:17, 185:10,
Comer 315:25 118:13, 161:23, compel 18:8 185:16, 195:5,
comes 30:25, 162:3, 168:3, compensation 195:8, 210:7
152:22, 178:23, 169:6, 193:14, 256:24 Concerning
271:20 193:23, 195:7, compete 250:4 64:13, 84:1,
coming 17:14, 195:15, 199:7, competed 248:14 84:2, 93:4,
19:15, 50:25, 244:20, 245:3, competing 18:1, 108:9
113:19, 115:16, 245:10, 245:13, 157:14, 158:10, concerns 72:14,
121:16, 134:10, 264:4, 264:9, 159:6, 159:10, 126:15, 132:14,
138:23, 141:19, 280:10, 297:3, 163:7, 163:22, 133:6, 136:3,
144:8, 152:24, 298:11 174:1, 210:6, 136:10, 150:22,
171:11, 179:12, commissioners 210:8, 212:23, 164:10, 164:12,
351
172:3, 172:4, confusing 277:24 14:12 197:20, 197:24,
183:13, 184:8, confusion 124:24 consulting 241:10, 241:18,
184:23, 185:2, connection 18:3, 109:22, 112:17, 265:18, 266:5
186:25, 195:12, 54:7, 54:16, 253:22, 269:22, contractual
196:3, 196:22, 56:1, 57:20, 274:9, 274:15, 224:11, 257:5
211:14, 265:5, 58:4, 58:20, 274:20, 274:22, contrary 87:25
265:13, 265:15, 73:10, 74:21, 275:8, 275:15 contributed
272:5 74:25, 75:5, consultings 56:24
conclusion 12:1, 105:9, 205:10 111:15 contribution
18:23, 44:20, Connie 329:3, Cont'd 20:11 67:23, 68:18,
205:14, 245:15, 335:19 contact 25:8, 69:19, 69:25,
259:12, 261:19 conniving 47:6 26:2, 43:14, 71:12, 71:23,
concrete 225:19 consensus 116:5 72:8
condition 325:19 234:21, 245:16 contacted 25:5, Contributions
condominiums consider 20:6, 124:6, 124:11, 67:9, 67:12,
95:20 105:9, 213:3, 285:7, 285:9 67:14, 67:19,
condos 223:7 253:19, 277:11, contends 85:13 68:9, 68:14,
conduct 14:10, 278:18, 302:21 contents 63:9 69:19, 70:12,
42:10, 62:17, considerably context 13:11, 70:18, 71:4,
92:12, 107:1, 30:13 13:23, 13:24, 71:7, 72:1,
107:22, 184:16, consideration 201:11, 313:24 72:3, 72:4,
195:6, 195:11, 247:17, 257:2 contingent 186:22
287:22, 289:7 considerations 164:14 control 156:18,
conducted 192:19 208:9 continue 146:16, 156:23, 160:21,
Conference 13:5, considered 147:15, 175:12, 191:17
340:9 266:1, 284:3, 259:7, 259:14, controllable
conferences 286:20 260:15, 260:17, 112:10
10:14 considering 289:12 Convenience
confidence 16:25 74:13, 208:10 continued 6:9, 313:12
confidential consistent 31:17, 31:25, conversation
17:4 70:14, 123:10 146:18, 150:13, 23:17, 28:24,
confined 13:19 conspiracy 166:20, 178:5, 29:16, 62:13,
confining 25:11 282:21 189:11, 259:7, 65:6, 97:12,
confirmed 40:17 conspiring 260:14, 260:19 104:19, 242:10,
conflict 16:14, 205:19 continues 146:1 242:12, 242:16,
16:22, 17:3, constable 110:17 Continuing 242:18, 263:12,
21:3, 22:10, constantly 93:14 115:24, 151:2, 282:15
22:13, 22:20, constituent 151:25, 294:14 conversations
22:22, 39:18, 229:25 continuously 27:18, 66:2,
40:7, 64:25, construction 205:7 84:10, 241:16,
65:5, 65:21, 73:10, 172:7 contracted 241:20, 243:3,
66:14, 66:15, consultant 48:2, 56:13, 124:11 282:10, 282:12,
66:20, 148:22, 109:21, 117:2, contracting 283:21
196:1 119:2, 165:14, 135:11 convince 326:19
conflicts 63:14 166:4, 241:3, contractor 72:18 cookie 222:15
confrontational 249:18, 249:22, contractors Cooks 330:2
258:7 274:25, 293:10 72:14, 172:6, cooperating 10:8
confused 159:9, consultants 172:9, 172:25, cooperation
263:7 249:19, 275:1 173:3, 173:4, 19:22
confuses 235:9 consultation 175:8, 197:18, copies 31:13
352
copy 53:23, 11:23, 12:22, 336:22 criteria 209:17,
88:14, 130:20, 16:13, 19:19, coverage 103:9, 209:23, 210:5,
188:3, 248:1, 19:22, 42:2, 103:15 210:11, 211:22,
248:4 55:13, 57:12, covered 36:1, 212:3, 213:2,
Coretta 250:7 67:10, 69:20, 36:8, 36:11, 213:7, 213:9,
corner 91:1 70:4, 80:22, 36:22, 92:22, 213:17, 214:8,
corporate 13:16 85:15, 87:9, 100:1, 100:21, 214:19, 217:18,
Corporation 88:2, 100:2, 108:5, 218:19, 217:20, 226:15,
13:11, 13:22, 100:17, 105:5, 293:2, 314:1, 228:9, 245:20
13:23, 13:24, 105:10, 105:18, 321:9 criterion 212:21
216:17, 251:18 107:13, 132:22, covered. 36:10, critical 15:18,
corporations 203:24, 212:11, 36:24 17:9, 114:10,
252:3 218:19, 220:7, covers 25:12 114:13, 122:10,
corrected 18:25, 225:6, 230:9, CPC 44:9, 44:16, 164:1, 254:13,
219:11 236:8, 247:2, 49:19, 51:14, 257:24, 268:11
correcting 262:12, 293:2 52:14, 52:25, Cross 302:21,
124:21, 231:13 Counselman 180:7 190:23, 280:10, 338:5, 338:18,
correctly 17:12, countless 159:24 297:3, 297:23 338:20, 338:22
85:10, 85:22, countries 118:3 Craig 304:5 CROSS-EXAMINATIO
206:5 country 250:13 Crawley 304:16 N 18:15, 20:11,
correspondence County 118:13, Crayton 219:3 198:22, 248:19,
339:27 142:14 create 28:4, 280:5, 302:14
corridor 57:21, Couple 71:1, 29:14, 145:7 Crossing 195:13,
58:21 146:10, 147:9, created 53:13, 196:12
Cossum 304:12 147:13, 171:12, 128:21, 185:20 Crystal 305:2,
cost 29:4, 173:6, 173:13, credits 21:20, 305:5
164:8, 164:16 178:5, 182:8, 78:24, 79:1, curse 96:19
costs 170:11 195:17, 196:18, 80:3, 81:17, cursed 97:2,
Cothrum 121:1, 265:21, 280:14, 101:21, 101:23, 97:5
121:21, 251:7, 280:15 126:20, 161:10, custodial 313:9
304:14, 315:2 course 14:8, 172:11, 173:14, cut 24:3,
Cottrell 315:25, 17:5, 20:4, 179:1 222:13, 230:4,
318:17, 321:9 152:11, 223:22, Creek 1:38, 327:9
Councilman 302:14, 314:5, 142:18 cutter 222:15
20:24, 22:6, 326:18 Crenshaw 116:9 cutting 62:13
41:1, 41:6, Courthouse 1:31 crime 201:22, Cynthia 306:19
42:22, 43:11, courtroom 88:25, 202:3, 202:5,
44:13, 51:22, 112:21, 158:1, 204:8, 261:1
62:3, 114:21, 160:15, 203:17, crimes 228:10 <D>
126:4, 126:9, 205:8, 205:20, criminal 18:2, D'angelo 1:12,
143:11, 147:5, 208:5, 227:25, 35:25, 108:19, 1:44, 20:15,
148:2, 158:22, 247:1, 262:24, 150:12, 150:23, 87:21, 113:11,
169:1, 180:7, 325:11 150:24, 260:21, 115:11, 115:13,
195:10, 255:22, courtroom. 4:15, 284:10, 284:17, 154:7, 168:5,
280:9, 280:10, 19:12, 88:17, 285:10, 286:8, 172:16, 173:17,
298:1 159:20, 160:16, 286:13, 286:15, 173:19, 174:2,
councilmen 22:3, 230:13, 231:15, 286:19, 286:20, 174:14, 175:6,
49:14 300:5 286:22, 287:7, 188:14, 189:9,
Counsel 4:18, cover 77:23, 287:14, 287:21, 189:25, 190:2,
4:23, 10:7, 301:24, 315:12, 287:22, 288:4 190:4, 190:9,
353
191:2, 191:16, 312:13, 327:17, dealt 48:15, 59:15, 67:10,
195:6, 195:11, 328:14, 331:13, 48:22, 56:21, 69:20, 70:4,
195:18, 195:19, 332:16, 334:16 82:23 105:18, 107:22,
195:21, 199:24, Davis 127:7, Dean 304:18, 108:4, 108:17,
219:3, 264:8, 321:10, 330:4, 318:13, 321:12 288:15, 336:22,
277:3, 280:10 330:6 debacle 145:15, 339:34
D. 1:13, 2:3 Day 11:10, 12:4, 258:9 defer 4:23
D/FW 72:24, 27:4, 57:24, Deborah 312:17 defined 135:19
73:7, 96:6, 69:16, 69:19, deceased 83:12, definitely
114:11 96:22, 97:1, 204:9 200:14, 326:3
DA 33:25, 34:5, 97:4, 123:11, December 269:10 definition
34:18 130:16, 135:1, deceptive 292:17 160:10
dam 59:11, 96:12 135:11, 168:16, decide 145:19, delay 238:16,
Dan 313:3 175:20, 202:11, 146:7 238:19, 268:12,
Dana 322:25 234:1, 236:19, decided 34:1, 282:1, 297:4
Daniel 320:4 237:18, 238:13, 51:25, 92:12, delayed 19:15,
DARLENE 2:20 239:23, 240:5, 115:10, 118:13, 19:23, 239:15,
darlenedeckard@a 241:17, 248:14, 271:13 239:17, 239:18
ol.com 2:27 266:11, 266:15, deciding 52:20 delays 238:17,
Daryl 332:10 271:3, 294:8, decision 14:11, 240:19, 268:17
date 37:10, 299:24, 340:11 147:6, 163:24, deliver 227:3,
52:4, 53:1, days 142:2, 260:14, 260:17 227:8
66:9, 66:10, 144:8, 175:14, decisions 94:23, demands 61:23
70:5, 70:14, 175:18, 181:15, 102:22 demolition
101:15, 124:3, 194:18, 196:18, Deckard 2:22, 139:19
130:18, 130:25, 268:24, 269:6, 231:12, 326:9 demonstrate
138:16, 140:18, 275:13, 285:6 declined 40:11, 78:16
141:7, 141:9, De 304:19 85:2, 86:1, denied 164:22,
142:7, 143:13, dead 203:19, 289:1 225:22, 227:1
143:16, 167:6, 250:8 deed 128:9 Denise 302:4
168:13, 171:10, deal 3:15, deep 160:11 Denton 142:14
171:13, 181:14, 15:15, 21:18, Deepak 311:24 denying 226:4
181:16, 189:17, 21:19, 22:14, defeated 98:24, Department 1:29,
211:14, 231:5, 25:3, 31:19, 279:18 60:17, 102:5,
231:6, 238:14, 31:25, 32:15, DEFENDANT 1:35, 208:21, 208:24,
239:14, 239:19, 38:23, 39:16, 9:13, 16:11, 209:1, 209:3,
240:17, 241:23, 39:17, 40:7, 70:4, 113:10, 209:7, 209:17,
278:7, 286:2, 58:12, 59:9, 137:5, 295:22, 210:12, 211:22,
291:12 80:3, 80:8, 295:23, 314:6, 212:22, 213:3,
Dated 11:14, 115:18, 116:24, 330:8 213:16, 216:18,
69:4, 130:23, 126:16, 126:17, Defendants 1:16, 217:21, 218:4,
130:25, 144:6, 164:4, 233:7, 16:6, 112:21, 218:5, 243:10,
174:8 239:11, 246:1 204:10, 314:5 245:14, 265:5
dates 252:6, dealing 126:19, DEFENSE 9:9, departure 292:9
277:23, 278:13 164:5, 173:14 9:12, 9:16, depended 99:1
daughter 116:19, deals 112:17, 11:14, 11:23, Depending 61:21,
116:21, 156:11 118:25, 129:6, 12:18, 12:22, 316:1
David 304:12, 209:8, 233:8, 17:24, 17:25, depends 258:3,
305:22, 308:8, 233:9, 234:1, 35:9, 44:17, 305:3
309:2, 311:22, 238:9, 253:16 53:5, 57:12, deposit 71:4
354
deputy 158:1, 58:12, 65:25, 12:16, 224:7 28:6, 42:4,
158:4 90:25, 91:24, dinner 188:10, 46:16, 47:16,
Derks 304:21 93:18, 94:3, 277:9, 277:10, 47:21, 59:4,
Derrick 330:16 95:23, 111:20, 278:15 76:9, 76:22,
Describe 145:9, 111:23, 120:2, Direct 11:20, 106:10, 140:11,
180:17, 261:7 120:3, 123:25, 12:3, 66:23, 195:1, 231:1,
described 258:7 124:22, 133:1, 109:16, 123:21, 259:23, 259:24,
design 126:23 156:14, 158:11, 161:2, 202:1, 281:25, 287:1,
designated 92:8, 159:6, 169:10, 228:1, 251:5, 287:4, 294:14,
324:12, 324:13 171:20, 172:4, 254:19, 260:20, 305:16
designation 173:12, 185:23, 288:2, 297:3, discussions
325:7 249:2, 251:18, 297:9, 338:16 47:19, 87:21,
designed 126:13 252:3 directed 148:21, 92:3, 92:9,
designs 126:8 developments 173:5, 180:15, 139:24, 177:14,
desiring 127:25 116:24, 128:1, 220:7, 231:8, 195:16, 203:5,
destroyed 12:1 233:6, 252:4, 231:13, 325:18 251:24
detail 117:12, 252:20, 252:24, direction 25:22, disguished
156:17, 169:8 256:11, 272:20, 130:9 324:19
details 173:15, 272:22 directly 16:24, disingenuous
217:25 develops 302:20 56:17, 121:6 29:13
determination DHFC 215:25, directs 14:14 dislike 49:1
27:23 217:18, 245:15 disagree 39:13, disliked 48:24
determined Diane 331:1, 99:23, 227:5, displayed 260:5
22:12, 228:25 333:13 249:14 dispute 10:10,
develop 10:14, difference disapproval 87:16
68:25, 93:18, 75:14, 75:16, 234:2 disregard
117:18, 199:18, 177:19, 216:15 disapprove 247:9 183:25, 184:2
199:20, 199:24, different 31:7, disapproved disseminated
224:24, 326:19 31:8, 41:15, 214:21, 216:14, 11:21
developed 56:3, 47:17, 48:2, 245:22, 247:9 distance 212:24
77:15, 95:25, 49:13, 70:20, disclose 281:14, distances 213:1
96:6, 108:17 105:2, 118:3, 283:1, 291:19, distinction
developer 23:11, 143:13, 155:21, 291:22, 291:25 16:18
72:21, 93:13, 165:14, 169:11, disclosed 16:25 distinguished
164:1, 170:21, 177:17, 183:22, discloses 85:12 324:17
171:25, 172:3, 184:3, 185:19, disclosure 30:5 distinguishing
174:17, 194:1, 209:24, 211:13, discuss 34:1, 70:9
195:21, 224:20, 222:24, 232:2, 34:2, 59:2, distribution
224:23, 269:14, 236:9, 261:18, 59:6, 65:4, 233:5
269:15, 297:17 268:25, 269:25 77:13, 190:11, Division 1:3,
Developers 54:5, differently 258:11 340:18
54:6, 55:6, 262:13 discussed 17:17, DLX 296:15,
127:12, 127:17, difficult 121:14, 122:17, 339:48, 340:1
133:16, 169:23, 107:25, 108:2, 141:25, 183:2, Dobbins 326:20
195:14, 228:22, 307:15 210:14, 251:5, doctor 199:15
229:25, 237:10 difficulties 251:15, 254:18, document. 214:15
developing 177:17 259:3 documents 11:21,
108:23, 111:23 dilemma 27:11 discussing 28:4, 68:22, 200:21,
Development diligence 11:20 65:24 211:13, 265:8,
54:17, 56:2, diligent 11:18, Discussion 21:9, 265:10
355
doing 6:17, 9:6, 181:19, 198:10, either 4:1,
19:15, 23:18, 260:4, 296:11 49:18, 53:19,
49:16, 52:17, DOWNES 2:21 <E> 68:14, 74:22,
56:18, 57:14, downstairs 51:12 E-mail 3:9, 75:19, 84:19,
80:20, 81:1, downtown 240:15 161:2, 174:8, 113:5, 190:23,
93:18, 95:7, dragging 160:7 174:9, 231:19, 199:17, 218:15,
95:11, 95:12, drawing 126:12 232:3, 232:8, 264:9, 293:25,
96:13, 109:21, dream 225:24 232:12, 232:16, 313:15
109:23, 110:23, dreamed 225:19 233:12, 236:24, either-or 262:15
111:15, 114:15, dreams 228:7, 237:16, 339:4, EJ 321:24, 322:6
123:2, 128:14, 228:8 339:13, 339:46 elaborate 263:4
132:20, 133:18, dreamt 225:13 e-mails 58:14 Elcock 330:12
133:20, 144:14, driven 271:21, E. 1:15, 1:27, Elected 26:9,
156:16, 158:23, 271:24 1:46, 2:20 36:22, 208:12,
172:15, 174:15, dropped 222:14 earlier 39:4, 208:14, 219:19,
227:22, 227:24, dropping 40:10, 161:13, 223:19, 255:14, 255:15
236:19, 266:23, 288:24 286:12 election 111:5,
283:14, 285:16 drug-infected early 118:11, 119:23, 249:19
dollar 71:23 254:6 131:25, 151:4, elections 110:21
dollars 164:8, drug-infested 158:14, 158:22, elicit 22:16
269:17 121:15 162:4, 163:24, eliminated
domain 18:6, Duane 329:11 191:6, 191:10 315:15
102:21, 103:3 due 18:2 earth 201:13 Ellis 319:21
Domingo 317:17, Dulan 330:8 easier 9:7, Elmo 44:15,
318:19, 321:18 duly 109:15 225:10, 255:21 101:7, 141:1
Donahue 304:23 Duncan 330:10 easy 255:16 embarrassed
Donald 1:11, Duncanville Ed 315:9 294:8, 294:10
1:36, 312:9, 224:23 Eddie 307:21, Emmons 330:14
312:20, 333:5 duplicate 318:6 316:17, 322:15 employee 36:19,
donated 23:11, During 28:6, edited 322:9 58:12, 66:22,
23:12 31:24, 32:5, Edmond 55:9 293:12
donation 23:12 32:7, 49:21, Edmonds 56:3, employee-employe
done 41:7, 81:1, 51:7, 65:23, 78:19, 80:2, r 123:21
84:21, 93:22, 107:10, 114:15, 81:5, 81:7, Employees 36:7,
95:17, 108:15, 115:4, 116:10, 81:16, 81:20 36:16, 36:20,
112:16, 123:24, 120:10, 131:2, Edmondson 80:15 59:8, 143:25,
141:16, 156:19, 133:3, 133:8, Edna 333:11 182:4
157:11, 185:1, 134:6, 139:19, effect 27:25, employer 45:7,
191:19, 267:1, 152:11, 152:14, 131:2, 226:4, 81:9
272:9, 294:11 158:13, 178:18, 255:11 employer-employe
Doretha 312:15 191:1, 195:5, efficiently e 47:13
Double 244:4 207:18, 221:3, 319:10 employment
doubt 242:20, 228:19, 269:21, Effie 328:18 199:10, 199:12,
313:23, 313:25 293:16 effort 97:25, 292:6
Doug 20:15, duties 95:9, 164:25, 250:5 Empowerment
232:9, 232:17, 255:5, 255:10 efforts 276:1 80:15, 81:5,
280:9, 319:19, duty 95:10 eight 165:11, 81:9, 81:17
339:46 Dykman 232:9, 165:21, 165:22, enclosed 62:23
DOUGLAS 1:44 232:17, 319:19, 165:24 encompassed
down. 51:23, 339:46 Eighteen. 54:14 108:19, 314:6
356
end 20:4, 52:20, equipment 11:4, 38:1, 81:10, 135:15,
59:17, 61:10, 139:21, 139:22 192:18 135:23, 148:12,
62:13, 98:14, Eric 317:13, Everything 148:17
117:23, 130:16, 321:14 132:19, 150:12, exceptions 31:8,
140:18, 160:9, Erma 306:14, 185:1, 194:15, 159:24
166:21, 175:13, 306:17 207:23, 208:4, excited 169:4,
266:10, 266:12, Ervin 327:15 210:2, 210:4, 223:22, 224:4,
279:2, 299:10 especially 210:14, 221:6, 224:15
ended 62:13, 60:24, 128:15, 226:24, 229:5, exclude 4:3
192:13, 257:6, 164:5 248:9, 268:14, exclusive 13:13,
335:21 Essentially 270:23, 282:5 161:6
enforcement 162:25, 175:14 everywhere Excuse 6:2,
91:21 Establish 82:7, 145:15 24:6, 44:15,
engage 13:20 105:6, 133:24, evidence 3:11, 49:24, 97:3,
engineering 186:2, 206:6, 9:12, 12:2, 139:7, 144:17,
170:12 207:12 37:4, 43:23, 175:14, 190:13,
ENGLEDOW 2:30, established 54:19, 55:24, 230:24, 231:2,
340:5, 340:13, 152:18, 192:4, 58:23, 75:18, 232:4, 237:4,
340:15 221:2, 256:3 82:18, 140:20, 242:21, 298:8,
enough 4:8, establishing 211:6, 286:1, 298:24
201:21, 253:11, 184:15 295:23, 313:23 excused 106:7,
264:2, 278:14 estate 59:9, evils 250:25 300:3
ensure 165:23 94:20, 199:17, exact 24:20, excuses 85:3,
Ensz 304:25 199:18, 199:20, 53:1, 170:13, 86:7, 289:2
enter 274:8 199:25, 200:7 211:14 executive 14:4,
entered 70:13, et 31:8, 49:19 exactly 47:11, 21:12, 21:14,
274:14, 275:5 ethical 27:24, 201:7, 202:6, 21:17, 22:2,
Enterprise 56:11 29:3, 29:14, 237:10, 237:16, 25:14, 25:17,
enters 4:15, 34:6, 37:15, 240:5, 245:25, 31:16, 33:7,
160:15 39:11, 59:14, 263:5, 277:21 39:17, 40:1,
entire 14:18, 199:1, 200:12 EXAMINATION 40:7, 45:1,
15:5, 68:6, Evans 305:2, 53:5, 53:9, 144:22, 288:19
169:11, 226:24, 305:5, 305:7, 101:1, 109:16, Exhibits 3:11,
229:21, 231:2, 319:7, 330:16, 202:1, 228:2, 4:4, 4:6, 4:19,
231:24, 231:25 336:4 251:5, 254:19, 5:16, 5:21,
entities 78:16, event 71:9, 260:20 9:10, 9:16,
152:17, 188:1 71:10 examine 108:8 10:9, 19:17,
entitled 24:7, events 117:18, example 71:24, 20:4, 324:12,
340:7 176:16, 278:16 128:12, 156:10 336:22, 336:23
entitlement Everybody 3:26, examples 23:11 exist 213:18
230:5 14:24, 15:14, exceed 68:13 existed 18:20,
entity 121:7, 52:6, 133:12, Excel 70:13, 113:20
121:8, 124:7, 145:19, 148:8, 71:5 existing 12:22
128:21, 128:23, 169:4, 210:7, Excellent 241:4 expand 276:13,
129:1, 129:13, 231:3, 231:10, Except 4:20, 283:16
129:16, 150:1, 246:20, 256:2, 6:3, 11:4, 12:2, expanded 109:23
152:1, 152:12, 259:6, 259:12, 16:19, 22:4, expect 43:17,
152:14, 152:20, 259:19, 270:16, 42:11, 75:22, 159:23
167:13 336:5, 336:23 107:20, 336:23 expecting 180:3
entry 171:7 Everyone 4:17, exception 57:9, expedite 80:5
357
expenses 257:3 51:4, 57:12, familiar 14:2, 287:19, 287:21,
experience 64:4, 64:13, 27:11, 31:10, 287:23, 288:3,
186:12, 186:13, 65:11, 75:24, 88:4, 90:13, 288:9, 289:6,
208:24, 253:25 87:24, 91:6, 90:14, 243:1, 289:18, 290:3,
Expert 36:19, 91:19, 98:13, 249:23 290:16, 291:2,
77:25, 78:6, 99:23, 103:25, familiarity 313:21
200:15, 313:7 111:11, 119:18, 261:22 Federal 110:21,
Explain 36:10, 148:24, 178:3, family 52:7, 251:24
59:21, 64:17, 181:5, 194:12, 52:9, 118:8, fee 130:14,
70:8, 79:14, 194:14, 240:13, 118:12, 118:17, 130:15, 131:8,
80:6, 80:10, 260:14, 265:9, 250:13 131:10, 142:25,
184:16, 191:12, 275:9, 279:11, Fannie 56:12 253:23, 257:10,
192:24, 195:23, 286:22, 301:16 Fantroy-fisher 257:19, 257:20,
212:11, 212:13, factor 177:10, 33:5, 104:24 257:25, 258:2,
212:15, 226:8, 288:8, 288:10, far 80:3, 112:7, 267:4, 268:1,
234:12, 234:14, 288:11 114:9, 114:10, 268:4, 268:24,
234:15, 249:16, factors 208:8, 114:23, 162:9, 269:15, 271:17,
253:4, 268:2, 208:15, 209:17, 162:11, 163:24, 271:22, 279:12,
268:9, 283:16, 210:16, 227:25 165:5, 169:2, 279:14, 279:19
289:20 facts 32:2, 170:12, 198:4, feedback 48:23
explained 190:5, 58:22, 103:25, 212:24, 263:10, feel 29:4,
287:2, 288:5 104:12, 104:22, 277:21 108:18, 112:8,
explore 261:3 105:8 Farrington 1:13, 122:19, 208:12,
expose 108:18 failed 177:12 2:3, 75:4, 291:1
exposure 150:11, Fair 92:4, 86:15, 89:9, feels 17:22,
151:20, 260:21 145:1, 145:24, 92:3, 247:21 17:24
express 60:4 178:15, 178:16, Farrington-hill fees 131:4,
expressed 275:21 191:1, 202:8, 113:7 166:2, 340:8
extant 15:10 208:3, 208:18, fast 226:16, feet 156:4,
extension 14:5 209:4, 214:14, 244:3 161:11, 169:25,
extensive 208:23 215:13, 218:1, fastidious 170:2, 170:3
extent 12:2, 218:13, 221:4, 71:21, 71:24 Ferguson 305:12,
64:10, 64:18, 223:1, 225:14, favor 67:21, 319:25
104:3, 107:25, 227:24, 229:24, 67:25 Fernando 304:19
108:8, 108:12, 230:2, 233:5, favorable 68:2, feud 292:22
184:4, 261:18 234:17, 241:1, 68:3, 169:5 few 77:23,
extortion 79:22 249:23, 253:11, fax 101:11, 191:20, 335:7
Extremely 114:6, 257:21, 258:3, 141:7, 142:7 Fifteen 141:23,
195:8 264:2, 270:6, FBI 13:5, 45:17, 230:17
eye 317:8 270:20, 271:3, 45:20, 51:8, Fifth 5:3, 5:6,
272:19, 273:25, 80:13, 81:12, 5:9, 5:11, 5:22,
274:1, 278:14, 105:25, 252:2, 107:10, 107:17,
<F> 324:11 252:19, 252:23, 108:2
facade 223:11 fairly 15:9, 253:2, 263:12, fifty 141:23
face 87:24, 70:11, 118:7, 277:17, 278:10, figure 10:3,
88:2, 201:13 222:10 281:10, 281:11, 19:18, 117:17,
facing 286:15 fairness 232:17, 282:21, 285:7, 123:16, 145:25,
fact 15:13, 324:1 285:9, 285:21, 160:1, 160:2,
19:2, 34:24, fall 191:6, 285:24, 286:2, 201:20, 204:7,
40:25, 41:9, 266:13 286:15, 287:4, 206:14, 206:23,
358
220:25, 269:22, fine 10:25, 230:6, 231:19, 177:14, 277:20,
272:5 42:17, 133:7, 246:14, 294:18 278:13
figures 123:9, 133:8, 168:11, follow 35:12, forth. 261:6
123:10 188:8, 205:3, 61:20, 181:5, forty 230:21
file 64:9, 83:3, 221:15, 232:7, 187:3 forward 21:20,
84:14, 84:19, 242:4, 275:3, followed 18:18, 119:12, 124:2,
84:24, 102:18, 325:19 18:24 132:3, 136:2,
188:4, 325:7 finish 76:7, following 4:6, 146:19, 148:1,
filed 5:15, 231:5 35:13, 66:7, 148:8, 149:5,
84:16 Finster 305:14 203:19, 245:14, 149:8, 150:13,
files 187:25 Fire 57:20, 287:15 151:3, 151:22,
filing 318:11 58:11, 59:3, follows 20:10, 152:6, 154:6,
film 52:11 94:6, 94:14, 109:15 164:14, 164:17,
final 53:24, 95:7 followup 117:9 168:9, 270:10
56:24, 76:16, fired 240:22 Fontana 330:20 found 35:16,
102:8 FIRM 1:37, 1:45, foot 222:12 99:8, 99:13,
Finally 116:14, 145:22 footage 156:4, 99:15, 125:1,
279:1 Fish 323:17, 156:13, 222:10 126:2, 144:24
Finance 57:7, 323:18 Force 53:12, Foundation
77:25, 78:6, Fisher-fantroy 53:17, 53:20, 56:12, 58:7,
216:17 31:18 54:13, 56:20, 58:8, 80:15,
finances 70:18, Five 9:7, 112:5, 56:24, 78:11, 81:5, 81:8,
238:22, 240:7, 194:18, 230:10, 81:17, 81:21, 81:16, 133:23,
265:2, 265:6, 300:8, 300:11 82:1, 82:3, 185:25, 186:2,
265:15 fix 102:4, 82:10, 101:19, 186:8, 193:7,
financial 30:5, 157:10, 160:19 101:20, 101:22, 193:8, 197:6,
66:23, 94:22, fizzled 109:22 102:4, 102:8, 242:23
164:10, 164:12, flip 39:21, 102:9, 147:7, founded 81:10
171:23, 171:24, 87:1, 220:3, 147:8, 295:3 Founders 2:14
172:3, 175:2, 288:18 forefront 273:3, Four 130:7,
175:4, 177:16, floating 228:9 273:4 130:13, 267:19
177:20, 196:16, Floor 1:31 foregoing 340:5, Fourth 4:10,
196:17, 197:15, Flores 330:18 340:7 5:5, 5:12, 5:24,
197:23, 199:22, flurry 58:14 foremost 61:13 63:10
199:25, 200:1, Focus 64:1, Forest 111:5, frame 47:11,
200:6, 228:21, 155:5, 159:3, 125:6 53:14, 120:10,
257:22, 258:4, 164:18, 167:4, form 13:25, 134:6, 151:22,
265:8, 265:9, 176:7, 182:12, 72:5, 150:15, 152:11, 189:17,
265:13 188:6, 191:20, 152:14, 165:13 191:5, 191:21,
financially 232:2, 232:12, Forman 330:22 194:16, 207:18,
164:16, 170:5 244:19 format 117:19, 209:15, 210:22,
financials focused 62:2, 340:8 212:20, 224:10,
175:3, 177:13, 132:16 formed 81:18, 224:18, 233:21,
177:14 focusing 173:24 82:1, 82:3 236:1
financing 56:14 folder 187:19 former 15:21, framed 212:11
find 22:21, folks 11:9, 16:4, 91:16, Francis 327:19
26:14, 99:6, 29:2, 78:16, 241:17 Frank 308:4,
119:5, 167:18, 199:10, 199:17, formerly 280:10 316:23
167:22, 201:18, 202:23, 208:9, forth 58:15, frankly 24:19
263:5 227:3, 228:9, 132:10, 170:12, Franklyn 331:23
359
Fredrick 331:11 garner 257:17 196:12, 196:13, 1:45, 3:25, 4:6,
free 159:21 garnering 256:10 198:5, 221:9, 4:15, 4:17,
fresher 278:11 Gary 306:1, 236:17, 236:18, 11:1, 11:5,
friend 284:9, 314:25, 315:11, 249:7, 249:12, 11:8, 20:7,
284:22, 284:23, 317:19, 318:20, 249:25, 266:25, 20:15, 46:16,
284:24 322:21, 330:24 279:19 65:14, 230:20,
friendly 292:8, Gates 73:4 Gibbs 305:24 280:9, 295:13,
292:25 gave 14:17, Gibson 331:1 300:7, 318:7,
Frison 305:18 17:20, 23:10, Gillis 331:3 318:15, 336:24,
front 68:17, 27:1, 53:23, girlfriend 338:5, 338:22
109:5, 109:11, 89:1, 89:5, 194:17, 246:7 greenelawfirm@sb
178:24, 211:11, 223:19, 224:22, gist 23:17, cglobal.net 1:50
211:19, 220:2, 237:11, 237:16, 29:15 Greer 321:20
221:1, 242:3, 248:1, 248:4, give-backs Greg 309:21
294:5 248:8, 263:2, 118:16 ground 25:12,
Fulbright 270:16, 275:14 Given 4:4, 200:7
305:20, 318:21, gear 12:24 14:19, 15:8, grounds 36:3
321:14, 321:16 Geisner 69:21 16:24, 17:8, Grove 153:3,
full 64:6, General 23:17, 18:15, 25:23, 153:20, 153:21,
76:22, 318:3, 29:15, 102:16, 27:3, 32:9, 153:22, 153:23,
318:5 132:9, 132:15, 32:11, 59:13, 162:9, 163:14,
fully 68:25 144:22, 162:5, 106:21, 106:22, 177:8, 177:11,
Fund 57:20, 162:17, 339:27 108:23, 140:16, 177:12, 177:17,
59:4, 75:19, Generally 21:7, 173:6, 185:6, 178:6, 215:13,
94:7, 94:14, 21:8, 23:1, 190:7, 193:19, 215:20, 216:8,
95:7, 95:19 23:10, 33:2, 213:2, 217:3, 235:13, 238:10,
fund-raiser 47:3, 57:13, 217:21, 246:5, 238:11, 238:15,
75:24 61:15, 120:13, 247:7, 250:4, 238:23, 238:24,
funds 59:3 121:14, 128:13, 253:22, 261:5, 239:12, 240:10,
funeral 154:9, 132:17, 162:14, 302:20, 326:17 240:14, 247:16,
250:9 166:23, 173:13, giving 16:19, 248:13, 267:4,
fussing 145:14 173:14, 266:2 89:4, 107:17, 267:5, 267:8,
future 141:20 gentlemen 19:13, 248:12, 262:14 267:14, 267:17,
fuzziness 19:4, 76:6, 88:12, glad 204:23 268:4, 268:15,
19:5 157:25, 159:18, Glenda 174:8, 269:9
fuzzy 19:3 184:1, 184:12, 339:13 growing 110:12,
194:25, 296:9, Glenn 312:1 116:19
299:25 Gloria 333:23 grudge 279:23
<G> George 307:6, Goodman 331:5 guard 295:17
Gail 316:4, 314:19, 315:18, gotten 31:13, guarded 139:22
334:10 335:17 302:17 guards 296:5
game 212:4, Gerald 328:6 Gouris 306:3 guidance 213:3,
213:16 gets 119:13, govern 63:1 218:4, 226:16
games 239:4, 194:2, 257:11, grateful 10:11 guide 181:22
239:10, 239:15, 269:15 great 15:15, guided 19:2
240:6 Getting 22:12, 155:19, 170:3, guy 115:11,
gap 115:4 22:21, 33:11, 325:14 219:20, 219:22
Garcia 305:22, 49:7, 132:13, Green 157:3, guys 226:10
317:17, 318:19, 173:15, 189:21, 331:7 Gwen 332:2
321:18 190:4, 193:4, Greene 1:44, Gwyneith 302:24
360
GX 339:3, 339:6, 150:13, 154:14, Hatcher 91:22 helpful 10:2,
339:9, 339:12, 166:25, 171:15, Haynes 306:14, 242:2, 322:7,
339:16, 339:19, 177:10, 178:6, 306:17 322:12, 336:17
339:23, 339:26, 180:17, 192:9, head 13:7, helping 93:18,
339:30 192:16, 193:19, 26:11, 51:23, 183:7
194:16, 194:21, 56:9, 173:8, Henderson 331:13
198:5, 198:8, 181:19, 197:19, Henry 56:7,
<H> 210:1, 228:25, 198:10, 214:12, 304:8, 314:11,
half 42:11, 236:5, 236:6, 228:10, 260:4, 314:25
42:12, 123:7, 237:2, 238:13, 261:6, 265:4 Herb 305:18
230:23, 232:12 240:11, 241:5, headache 37:20 Hernandez 306:19
halfway 302:17 241:16, 243:3, header 141:7 Herrera 56:5
hall 48:3, 49:4, 245:25, 263:9, heads 296:11 Herron 331:15
49:11, 80:13, 263:25, 282:4, health 316:1 hesitancy 212:5
81:12, 145:16, 293:5 hear 8:25, High 137:24,
165:11, 175:15, happening 21:24, 19:25, 20:3, 138:5, 179:18
211:7, 211:13, 102:20, 236:1 29:20, 97:22, highest 138:12
233:23, 256:1, happens 17:5, 112:7, 157:6, highlight 37:7,
266:11 127:21, 146:18, 189:21, 204:20, 64:6, 215:2,
Hamilton 110:12, 233:23, 247:8 301:5, 306:9 231:24, 251:12,
110:18, 116:20 hard 88:14, hearing 4:6, 288:19, 290:7
Hammond 310:11, 141:15, 226:15, 10:13, 27:21, Highway 2:23
336:8 270:7 153:16, 156:25, Hillman 306:23
Hampton 306:5, Harden 72:21 160:20, 178:22, Hillwood 111:20,
331:9 hardly 144:2 225:21, 305:11, 111:22, 249:1,
hand 66:12, harm 284:23, 326:13, 326:16 249:21
71:7, 102:7, 285:1, 285:4 Hearsay 58:1, hire 72:17,
109:6, 174:1, Harold 334:4 135:4, 135:13, 166:3, 241:9,
174:3, 301:9 Harris 125:6, 135:15, 135:19, 287:17, 293:7
handing 71:11 144:24, 146:9 136:15, 139:2, hired 73:10,
handle 65:22 Harry 320:2 146:23, 148:11, 116:23, 117:1,
handled 66:3, Hasan 306:10 148:12, 155:12, 119:1, 124:22,
70:18 Haskel 9:15, 158:25, 159:23, 125:13, 125:16,
handling 65:20 9:19, 11:13, 159:25, 180:10, 125:21, 131:12,
handwriting 12:9, 12:12, 192:23, 243:25, 139:18, 155:6,
141:16, 251:6 13:3, 13:8, 244:10, 244:14 251:19, 257:16,
handwritten 13:9, 13:22, Height 136:12, 274:24, 275:2,
120:18 14:3, 14:20, 136:13, 137:14, 287:18, 287:20,
hang 296:10 14:21, 14:22, 137:15, 138:12, 293:8, 293:10
Hank 56:7, 56:8 15:2, 15:23, 192:10, 192:12 hires 94:22
Hannah 331:11 15:25, 16:21, held 68:19, hiring 72:14,
happen 55:2, 17:10, 18:10, 178:22, 193:5, 252:3, 252:20,
147:1, 157:15, 22:15, 26:18, 207:16, 297:21 252:24
180:3, 189:7, 32:17, 34:24, Hello 77:21, Hirsch 56:9,
224:17, 301:6, 35:5, 41:11, 77:22 331:17
324:6 41:21, 85:5, help 56:13, Hispanics 28:14
happened 47:10, 85:8, 85:12, 145:18, 187:21, historically
104:14, 122:19, 86:10, 104:3, 197:16, 254:3 250:3
123:11, 133:12, 104:15, 104:25, helped 116:10, history 254:5
145:12, 149:6, 306:12 250:9, 323:24 hit 157:4
361
hold 68:5, 126:16, 131:19, 339:19, 339:23, inartfully
77:24, 78:5, 132:9, 252:11, 339:26, 339:30, 27:19, 297:20
235:18, 279:23, 252:17 339:36, 339:39, incentive 142:22
287:3 hour 42:12, 339:42, 339:45, incident 38:17,
holding 13:14, 130:14, 141:22, 339:48, 340:1 41:16, 66:9,
15:12 142:20, 143:25, identify 62:11, 325:14
holiday 118:21, 191:13, 220:17, 170:17, 172:18, inclined 61:19
118:22 230:19, 230:23, 173:3, 254:4 included 9:5,
Hollie 321:22 257:3, 266:17, illegal 151:3, 267:2
Holloway 307:2 266:24, 274:18, 263:13 includes 80:1
Holmes 307:4 300:22 illustrate 242:2 Including 18:2,
home 154:9, hourly 131:14 immune 35:14 22:6, 56:15,
156:2, 169:9, hours 19:21, immunity 106:11, 64:3, 135:21,
169:16, 169:18, 258:1 106:14, 106:18, 208:5, 231:11
169:20, 170:1, House 52:11, 106:19, 106:23, inclusion 276:16
230:24, 255:2 117:20, 118:2, 107:24, 108:5, inconsistent
homebuilder 156:12, 170:25, 108:23, 203:15, 260:6
224:20, 225:12 171:4, 174:22, 261:4, 261:7, incorrect 40:23,
homeowner 180:1 192:3, 205:23, 261:23, 262:9, 203:1
Homes 90:19, 207:1 263:2 INDEX 337:3
153:20, 153:21, houses 172:1, implication indicate 65:9,
156:2, 156:9, 223:15 74:18 68:18
163:14, 164:5, Hubs 250:3 important 64:25, indicated 66:5,
164:6, 169:3, Huge 123:1, 74:12, 75:2, 73:24, 97:11,
169:22, 169:24, 123:16, 145:8, 75:11, 101:12, 133:13
170:7, 170:15, 156:5, 258:8 113:25, 114:4, indication 48:4
177:8, 177:11, huh-huh 267:22 114:6, 119:9, indications
177:12, 178:6, Hull 307:6 119:10, 122:3, 103:24
222:8, 222:9, hundred 269:17 122:4, 122:8, indictment
223:20, 223:24, hundreds 6:9, 165:25, 177:6, 205:19
224:12, 224:21, 19:17, 90:18 182:13, 201:20, indirect 66:23
226:17, 227:6, hung 268:21 219:17, 230:1, indirectly 22:16
229:2, 238:14, Huntsberry 250:13 individuals
238:24, 239:11, 331:19 impression 62:6, 53:20, 56:1,
240:14, 247:16, Hurst 307:8 287:21, 304:4 56:23, 180:8,
248:13 husband 69:24 improper 41:2, 191:7, 228:22
honest 280:17, Hymen 304:6, 41:7, 83:22, inform 21:23
283:6, 283:9, 329:23 83:24, 84:17, informant 281:12
285:3, 291:15 hypothetical 85:1 information
HONORABLE 1:20 35:20 impugning 322:13 117:21, 135:10,
honoring 14:25 in-depth 128:8 144:11, 157:13,
hoops 175:1 in. 236:20, 158:9, 159:5,
hope 103:3, <I> 335:24 189:18, 230:5
103:4, 103:7, idea 9:23, 28:9, inappropriate informed 324:7
306:13, 306:16 59:9, 240:20 41:20, 85:7, infrastructure
hopefully 34:13 Identified 86:8, 289:3, 164:4, 164:9,
horse 15:21 171:25, 318:2, 289:8 170:6, 170:9,
horseshoe 17:5 318:17, 339:3, inappropriate. 170:18, 170:19
Hospital 124:16, 339:6, 339:9, 40:14 initial 41:1,
124:17, 124:18, 339:12, 339:16, inartful 36:13 121:4, 126:9,
362
127:20 18:8, 22:20, 95:13 issued 210:5,
Initially 40:18, 22:22, 47:13, investment 94:23 217:20, 218:6
98:24, 107:7, 58:19, 63:14, investors 197:24 issues 48:2,
126:15 64:10, 65:1, invite 278:16 60:20, 61:2,
initials 322:6 66:15, 66:20, invited 191:11, 61:4, 78:6,
initiated 18:24 66:23, 74:8, 191:13, 193:16, 115:16, 171:19,
input 127:9, 74:22, 74:24, 193:23 176:25, 177:6,
146:13 77:13, 93:5, inviting 13:25 177:10, 183:11,
inquire 9:15, 93:8, 93:19, Invoices 339:27 185:19, 194:1,
107:22 93:21, 94:3, invoicing 130:11 197:25, 245:6,
inquiring 314:5 148:15, 183:6, involve 61:4 268:16
ins 199:1 196:1, 257:22, involved 56:17, item 21:19,
instance 214:22 258:5 73:25, 110:13, 21:25, 22:10,
instances 16:23, interested 110:14, 110:18, 65:23, 66:3,
17:3 15:16, 110:10, 113:2, 120:5, 102:12, 207:10,
instead 177:16, 119:6 121:5, 182:3, 221:18, 221:20,
220:1, 267:21, interesting 13:5 186:5, 222:8, 243:13, 243:15
295:12 interests 18:1 242:24, 252:9, items 22:19,
instinct 61:16 interfere 96:14 313:21 161:18, 208:10,
instruct 184:1, internally 92:8 involvement 228:1, 234:2
186:25, 262:12 international 74:10, 254:2, itself 15:12,
instructed 111:1, 118:6 287:7, 287:13, 107:17, 147:9
183:15, 183:24, interpret 17:17 288:13
189:8, 274:2 interrupt 117:8 involving 36:16,
instructing interrupting 39:10, 282:10, <J>
64:23, 262:15 325:6 282:12, 283:21, J&L 140:5,
instruction Interstate 285:10, 287:22 141:6, 141:25,
184:6, 184:11, 91:22, 162:23, irrelevant 142:8, 143:20,
184:17 163:4, 163:18 154:19 149:15, 339:37,
instructions introduced Isom 333:3 339:40, 339:43
185:7, 187:3 82:18, 196:17, issue 3:7, 13:4, J. 322:9, 322:11
instructs 247:3 197:15, 197:22, 14:2, 15:6, Jack 123:4,
instrumental 211:21, 211:22 15:17, 15:21, 309:10, 314:15
278:22 introduces 17:19, 18:5, Jackie 309:25
insurance 142:3 212:1, 212:2 20:20, 25:19, Jackson 1:36,
integrity 272:1 intuit 12:14 34:6, 46:17, 1:37, 2:15,
intelligence invasion 284:2 48:22, 61:6, 42:6, 93:1,
322:13 invest 58:11, 65:6, 73:16, 96:1, 300:21,
intend 12:5, 59:8, 94:16, 79:22, 114:18, 307:10, 314:10,
301:17 94:17, 94:20, 116:25, 137:15, 317:9, 318:4,
intended 3:10 95:2 138:13, 146:8, 318:9, 318:18,
intention 59:3, invested 95:20 146:15, 146:16, 319:11, 331:21,
326:15 Investigation 151:19, 159:16, 338:11
intentionally 187:25, 251:25, 159:24, 161:8, Jafar 152:20,
14:11 323:20 161:9, 170:23, 307:12, 316:10,
interaction 49:8 Investigations 172:8, 172:10, 320:10, 322:19
interactions 141:6, 141:11 175:5, 177:13, James 37:25,
213:15 investigative 177:20, 177:22, 134:21, 141:14,
interest 16:14, 33:24 180:1, 198:25, 143:5, 143:6,
16:22, 17:4, investing 94:15, 210:7, 324:4 143:20, 144:12,
363
146:8, 187:14, 316:17, 319:1, 338:15, 339:4, Kirkman 332:10
200:17, 201:9, 322:15, 322:17 339:17, 339:28 Kirkpatrick
201:12, 201:15, Johnston 331:25 Keep 9:20, 327:3
201:25, 264:3, joint 69:5 10:16, 63:11, knowing 108:21,
272:8, 303:16, Jon 56:3, 80:2 63:13, 76:23, 194:15
305:20, 311:16, JONATHAN 2:4 99:21, 100:19, knowledge 48:13,
321:16, 328:10, Jonathon 78:19 109:3, 114:7, 65:10, 134:6,
334:24, 335:1 Jones 307:25, 147:7, 147:8, 193:5, 193:8,
Janik 321:24, 308:2, 320:4, 160:7, 160:18, 193:15, 294:12
322:2, 322:6 325:8, 326:1, 165:4, 203:17, known 111:23,
January 51:20, 326:5, 332:2, 259:7, 259:10, 113:1, 116:3,
257:6, 297:23 332:4, 332:6 259:11, 259:13, 116:4, 153:20,
Jeff 303:18, Jordan 308:4, 259:18, 260:3, 235:11, 272:25
325:8, 326:1, 316:23 301:23, 324:7 knows 133:24,
326:5 Joseph 302:2, Keith 304:10, 256:2
Jehrime 303:22, 332:24 307:25, 335:5 Kroener 308:11
316:2, 320:8, Joyce 330:22 Kelcher 308:6 Kyle 310:22
321:7 JR 2:12 Ken 310:10,
Jenifer 331:23 Judd 315:13 314:21, 329:13
jeopardy 15:10 Judge 1:21, Kendall 308:8 <L>
Jerome 332:14 55:14, 55:21, Kent 310:13 L. 1:14, 2:12,
Jerry 217:23, 73:16, 88:25, kept 19:14, 143:7, 144:12,
265:4, 265:10, 108:11, 137:4, 65:24 254:21
308:10 160:15, 227:22, Kevin 318:13, lack 145:16,
Jesse 302:8, 246:20, 256:4 321:12 167:19, 203:6
332:4 judgment 109:1 kid 110:12 lacking 223:23
Jesus 247:1 Judicial 340:9 Killingsworth Ladies 19:13,
Jideofor 310:6 jumping 175:1 209:13, 217:23, 76:6, 88:12,
Jim 331:25, Juneeta 328:20 265:4, 265:10, 157:24, 159:18,
333:17, 334:12 JUSTICE 1:29 308:10 184:1, 184:12,
Jimenez 307:19 justify 34:9 Kind 20:19, 194:25, 296:9,
Jimmy 110:18 27:23, 32:1, 299:25
JLS 139:1, 34:12, 37:22, lady 224:23
139:6, 141:11 <K> 44:25, 47:22, laid 185:25
job 18:9, 95:9, K-A-T-H-Y 109:8 83:17, 130:17, Lamar 1:46
95:10, 96:14, Karen 311:3, 141:15, 168:21, Lancaster 162:21
159:25 319:15 169:22, 172:16, Lancaster-kiest
jobs 49:13 Karl 304:16, 177:20, 180:2, 57:21, 58:13,
John 55:9, 313:1, 321:3 183:18, 211:6, 58:20, 58:21,
302:6, 304:23, Kathy 47:23, 260:5, 261:1, 77:15, 93:5,
308:13, 310:24, 48:1, 106:9, 261:4, 263:2, 93:9, 95:2
311:9 109:8, 109:13, 274:8, 283:7 Land 114:13,
Johnnie 332:8 157:23, 167:12, kinds 261:7 114:15, 127:24,
Johnson 14:17, 168:17, 171:9, King 118:8, 127:25, 128:16,
26:4, 33:14, 174:13, 182:15, 118:12, 118:17, 170:19
86:2, 86:4, 182:16, 182:17, 118:21, 118:23, language 87:7
120:24, 122:5, 187:19, 187:24, 250:7, 250:8, lapse 37:15,
123:15, 253:13, 219:3, 254:21, 250:12, 332:8 39:11
253:19, 256:17, 264:16, 272:1, Kirk 111:7, Larcine 328:16
307:21, 307:23, 313:19, 316:6, 111:8 large 16:10,
364
126:18 237:17, 237:25 131:2, 165:3, Leon/pra 233:7
largely 15:8, Laurie 305:24 212:21, 272:16, less 162:15,
21:23 LAW 1:37, 1:45, 326:15 169:24, 230:19,
larger 31:4, 2:13, 2:22, leave 189:10, 250:25, 307:18
156:9, 156:13, 68:13, 161:9, 194:20, 325:11 Lester 333:1
232:13 322:9 leaves 117:16 Letter 180:5,
Larry 330:10, laws 62:24, led 59:25, 60:2, 180:9, 270:16,
330:20, 331:17 63:1, 63:14, 60:3, 97:25, 339:20
Last 3:9, 5:5, 76:15, 82:23, 98:5, 98:20, letters 132:13
40:8, 50:6, 83:6 98:21, 249:12, letting 324:13
80:10, 109:7, Lawson 56:7 276:18 level 31:11,
115:22, 130:19, lawyer 34:12, leeway 216:20 57:1, 156:16
138:20, 172:24, 35:17, 35:19, left 15:21, Leverage 255:11,
185:5, 192:8 104:18, 125:6, 62:7, 88:25, 255:13, 255:14
Late 11:13, 199:15, 246:21 89:14, 133:12, Levi 335:9
138:19, 152:16, lawyers 12:9, 134:13, 145:2, Lewis 308:13,
195:18, 278:2 275:1 188:7, 292:5, 317:21
later 23:13, lawyers. 195:1 292:13 liability
76:8, 98:13, LB 2:24 legal 31:5, 108:19, 142:3,
108:16, 123:18, LBJ 95:14 34:6, 35:2, 284:11
128:25, 133:10, lead 117:14, 44:20, 64:19, liable 35:16
138:7, 144:8, 127:15, 134:23, 64:21, 200:23, lie 262:24
147:13, 149:6, 146:1, 146:4, 205:13, 261:19, lieu 233:3,
152:22, 152:24, 160:8, 286:21, 282:4, 289:19, 234:9
181:5, 226:23, 287:6, 287:12 290:24 life 9:6, 110:11
238:13 leader. 232:25 legitimacy lift 81:14
latest 3:8 leaders 255:16, 323:15 light 148:22,
latter 15:20 276:15 legitimate 15:17 157:3
Laughter 204:25, leading 67:15, LEIGHA 1:28 likelihood 12:24
217:13, 220:19, 102:24, 103:11, Lemmon 171:6, likely 61:5,
244:1 127:14, 134:22, 171:9, 205:24 326:18
LAURA 20:9, 145:3, 146:3, lengthy 114:2 likes 168:25
37:24, 111:11, 149:20, 150:8, Leo 91:16, limit 69:24,
218:2, 238:19, 154:18, 154:23, 91:19, 148:2, 190:5, 190:7
239:10, 240:6, 160:5, 160:8, 148:23, 216:7, limitation
265:12, 265:14, 160:10, 174:24 235:23, 317:4, 226:11
309:16, 338:4 Leal 326:22 317:11, 319:5, limited 17:3,
Laureland 73:19, lean 172:20, 336:2 80:20
76:17, 86:22, 232:6 Leon 45:3, limiting 184:6,
87:5, 87:14, leaned 20:24, 124:10, 144:23, 184:11
90:1, 91:11, 325:11 146:9, 152:16, limits 68:13,
92:20, 101:10, leaning 172:19 171:21, 190:1, 199:17
130:5, 152:25, learn 67:13, 190:12, 190:16, Linda 302:1,
153:1, 153:4, 74:5, 244:2 259:20, 259:21, 334:18
153:11, 158:15, learned 11:13, 270:8, 271:4, Lindsay 332:14
163:19, 163:20, 59:2 293:7, 293:24, line 14:18,
192:21, 193:6, least 18:8, 304:19, 308:19, 60:13, 92:1,
213:5, 214:22, 49:21, 57:13, 314:23, 318:7, 107:22, 138:2,
216:3, 221:22, 59:13, 99:25, 318:14, 320:22, 146:22, 165:25,
222:2, 237:11, 101:14, 126:13, 335:25 195:13, 196:12
365
lines 62:17 210:9, 212:1, 193:24, 198:25, 200:17, 201:25,
lineup 231:2 225:8, 232:12, 230:15, 230:18, 220:18, 224:2,
Lipscomb 325:10, 261:3, 263:4, 289:1, 296:7, 233:20, 268:13,
325:13, 325:16, 275:20, 277:23 324:17, 324:18, 276:15
327:9, 327:13, live 135:22, 324:19 lots 194:1,
332:16 229:7, 229:8, longer 47:13, 206:22, 208:8
list 4:4, 5:9, 229:9, 281:24, 47:20, 230:9, Lott 308:15,
5:12, 5:24, 282:2, 282:6 300:7 308:17, 315:22
5:25, 6:5, 9:5, lived 110:2, Lonnie 331:5 loud 156:24
12:10, 53:24, 110:6, 110:8, look 10:20, loved 169:1
54:12, 54:23, 113:3, 122:5, 20:5, 77:4, low-income 56:14
55:14, 55:15, 156:7, 229:14, 89:5, 114:22, LP 129:16
80:7, 81:25, 229:18, 241:21 120:17, 123:6, Lueken 308:19
82:16, 121:11, lives 229:11 123:7, 130:11, Lunch 157:8,
301:1, 301:8, living 109:20, 167:2, 181:10, 159:17, 159:22,
301:10, 313:18, 186:4, 241:9, 187:7, 187:20, 160:12, 160:14,
314:10, 316:22, 243:4 222:13, 223:11, 160:24, 165:7,
318:3, 318:5, LKC 93:5, 93:14, 223:20, 252:6, 182:14, 196:9,
318:7, 318:12, 93:15 286:7 196:15, 196:18,
318:14, 318:18, Lloyd 111:3 looked 3:11, 277:9
318:20, 318:25, LLP 2:5 115:10, 126:21, Lusardi 130:5
319:10, 324:13, lobbyist 49:10 144:4, 248:1 Luther 118:21
324:14, 324:16, local 59:8, Looking 54:12, Lyle 140:4
325:8, 326:3, 94:15, 94:20, 60:20, 67:12, Lynd 308:21
326:9, 336:5 95:13, 95:23, 92:2, 123:15, LYNN 1:20
listed 56:23, 111:3, 112:3 160:18, 223:24,
215:5, 315:2 locally 95:3 287:21, 301:15
listen 33:2, located 90:25, Looks 175:25, <M>
227:20 91:21, 124:14, 176:2, 176:3 Ma'am 5:3, 5:7,
listening 15:14, 126:11, 128:10, Loop 120:8, 5:19, 7:1, 8:15,
21:15, 259:23 142:14, 171:5 120:11, 120:20, 8:19, 9:11,
listing 315:23 location 90:23, 252:8 53:2, 109:4,
lists 129:21, 91:16, 122:6, Lori 309:14 114:8, 180:21,
129:24, 256:24, 126:14, 127:10, lose 147:3, 184:18, 198:18,
301:16 141:16, 278:23 147:4, 147:5, 200:20, 206:10,
literally 19:17 locations 90:7, 258:25 207:9, 210:3,
litigation 14:8, 90:9, 90:19, lost 166:21, 212:25, 234:19,
14:10, 14:14 139:18, 140:1, 177:4, 177:5 260:17, 262:6,
little 19:3, 235:12 lot 10:5, 12:10, 267:21, 270:2,
63:18, 76:8, locked 227:11 19:21, 24:4, 272:3, 276:14,
96:2, 97:11, logistics 117:17 25:12, 30:3, 279:14, 284:5,
109:25, 112:7, Long 10:3, 30:6, 48:2, 51:7, 294:16, 299:13,
114:1, 117:4, 40:12, 41:19, 51:9, 119:13, 300:4, 301:12,
117:10, 117:12, 44:15, 85:3, 125:9, 127:23, 316:14, 325:4,
124:24, 126:12, 86:7, 97:16, 127:24, 128:9, 329:20, 335:22,
128:25, 130:18, 102:20, 110:2, 131:15, 145:22, 336:15
132:22, 156:21, 113:20, 113:23, 164:2, 164:7, Maas 317:13
157:10, 158:6, 115:15, 115:22, 165:14, 165:15, Mac 321:16
162:22, 169:8, 116:3, 156:7, 169:3, 169:23, Mack 332:18
172:20, 179:15, 175:12, 192:7, 170:11, 191:22, Madeleine 14:16,
366
26:4, 33:14, married 246:10 Maxine 83:17, meaning 17:17
86:2, 86:4, Martin 118:13, 148:3, 310:18, means 4:13,
307:23, 319:1, 118:21, 303:12, 317:2, 323:4 19:25, 72:6,
322:17 309:4, 309:6, Mayberry 317:19, 103:18, 104:11,
Madrid 308:23 315:24, 329:7 322:21 166:3, 226:9,
Mae 56:12 Marty 309:8 Mayor 13:25, 255:14, 289:14
Magee 309:19 Mary 306:10, 34:16, 37:24, meant 70:8,
maiden 69:21 311:18, 317:22, 40:12, 41:19, 96:16, 178:11
mail 72:5 323:2, 323:8 67:19, 85:3, mechanical 2:37
mailed 70:25 Mascari 309:8 86:4, 111:7, media 51:9,
major 31:2 Master 121:1, 111:8, 113:5, 52:5, 52:10,
majority 28:13, 121:9, 121:21, 144:21, 165:12, 103:9, 103:15
28:18, 28:21, 124:1, 256:20 265:12, 289:1 Medlock 319:23
29:11, 60:3, matchbox 169:24, Mcbride 326:10, Meet 11:1,
236:17 222:9 326:12 117:22, 125:1,
Mall 57:12, material 18:23, Mcgill 181:21, 125:3, 126:2,
57:19, 58:16, 156:17 181:25, 182:20, 126:4, 132:15,
95:20 math 10:4 242:13, 272:17, 132:17, 146:7,
Mallery 308:25 Matlock 326:24 309:12, 316:9, 148:8, 148:9,
Mallory 329:9 Matt 125:5, 339:24 150:14, 165:1,
man 201:17, 144:24, 146:9, Mckool 110:15 168:15, 174:13,
201:21, 203:17, 309:6, 315:24 Meacham 1:27, 174:14, 181:2,
219:17, 240:7 matter 11:6, 159:23, 160:22, 181:4, 181:8,
management 15:13, 24:19, 202:6, 202:10, 182:23, 187:1,
13:12, 13:16, 27:6, 31:17, 202:15, 206:16, 188:17, 195:14,
13:19, 13:21, 41:18, 45:18, 209:19, 222:5, 197:23, 206:6,
165:12 45:21, 60:18, 260:21, 265:17, 206:7, 219:23,
manager 14:3, 65:5, 65:12, 277:13, 279:1, 271:8, 271:10,
14:12, 141:13 65:13, 65:19, 338:16 271:13, 274:3,
manner 56:24, 66:23, 74:7, meal 277:11 274:7, 274:14,
57:2 87:24, 102:19, mean 16:18, 278:20
map 213:17, 103:9, 103:25, 28:14, 30:15, Melinda 307:10
235:15 104:2, 104:10, 30:24, 31:5, Melvin 320:12,
March 192:2, 108:13, 136:20, 34:12, 36:10, 323:10, 333:25
213:18 139:10, 147:17, 36:11, 43:13, member 17:1,
Marcus 3:9 151:5, 166:21, 60:16, 79:15, 22:19, 37:25,
MARCUS BUSCH 177:1, 294:5, 93:21, 133:3, 60:4, 61:8,
1:25 340:7 156:10, 161:11, 61:18, 62:8,
Marian 329:5 matter. 64:11 169:1, 176:12, 64:9, 67:14,
Mark 308:2, matters 13:18, 179:13, 196:8, 72:25, 84:11,
308:6, 310:2, 34:19, 36:16, 196:13, 196:19, 91:16, 105:22,
311:1, 325:8, 43:15, 44:5, 196:20, 200:22, 117:13, 132:17,
326:1, 326:5, 60:15, 60:18, 206:4, 211:2, 165:1, 165:8,
326:10, 326:12, 61:1, 61:11, 218:15, 223:5, 165:20, 166:9,
330:2 67:21, 186:5, 229:13, 254:9, 166:13, 173:11,
marked 9:2, 190:23, 191:17, 255:13, 257:24, 181:3, 192:7,
37:1, 63:6, 282:5 259:24, 260:8, 214:20, 218:3,
288:15 Matthew 72:21 263:7, 267:9, 219:16, 223:22
markings 176:22 Matthews 309:10, 289:12, 324:25, members 22:4,
Marquez 309:2 314:15 327:11 25:19, 40:9,
367
49:19, 53:25, 125:17, 127:6, 309:16, 338:4 75:9, 101:13
54:12, 58:11, 131:21, 137:25, Miller. 46:16 Mitchell 310:16
60:6, 61:24, 146:7, 148:5, million 164:8 Mitchell-brooks
62:10, 64:3, 148:7, 154:7, Mims 309:17, 321:1
67:6, 78:11, 155:11, 165:3, 315:20, 322:23 Mithcell-brooks
95:7, 148:21, 179:21, 181:12, mind 3:26, 303:6
150:14, 150:19, 191:3, 191:7, 32:22, 36:25, mixed 183:18,
165:5, 165:9, 191:9, 191:15, 40:20, 179:3, 222:6, 222:8,
165:23, 178:25, 205:23, 220:4, 179:10, 194:3, 226:25
180:4, 207:11, 248:23, 272:13, 194:20, 207:23, mobilization
213:2, 265:17, 286:14 208:4, 208:7, 142:25
288:23 Methodist 258:24, 286:10, Molly 328:12
memo 13:10, 124:18, 131:19, 329:19 moment 9:21,
236:19 252:11, 252:17 minds 208:16 42:3, 83:10
Memorial 153:9, Meyer 309:14 Mine 111:20, Mondale 110:24
154:3, 155:5, mic 11:25, 112:2, 154:25, Monday 9:25,
155:18, 155:24, 132:23, 157:3, 156:24 11:1, 296:20,
157:18, 158:10, 158:3, 158:4 minimum 156:3, 300:1, 300:3,
158:16, 158:17, Michael 306:23, 170:1 336:21
159:11, 161:14, 327:21, 329:25, minorities 29:11 money 23:11,
161:16, 162:10, 330:8, 334:20 Minority 28:14, 23:12, 29:4,
163:18, 164:4, microphone 60:6, 72:14, 58:12, 59:8,
164:18, 173:24, 109:12, 157:22, 72:18, 94:2, 71:4, 72:6,
174:23, 177:2, 158:2, 225:8 172:14, 172:17, 122:17, 122:23,
177:18, 192:1, Mid 113:9 172:25, 173:2, 122:25, 123:2,
213:4, 214:22, middle 24:16, 173:4, 175:8, 123:3, 142:4,
215:20, 221:21, 40:8, 251:12, 189:11, 197:18, 142:25, 149:19,
238:2 251:13, 299:10 197:20, 197:24, 149:25, 150:6,
memory 123:10, Mike 110:14, 242:6, 249:11, 186:23, 199:21,
144:19, 220:4, 323:12 250:2, 265:18 253:17, 257:6,
238:25, 278:11 mile 163:22, minute 88:1, 274:15, 281:16,
mention 87:14, 210:6, 210:8, 100:5, 133:5, 281:25, 282:3,
125:9, 125:12, 210:13, 213:5, 156:15, 157:20, 322:1
173:7 214:22 173:23, 192:8, Monica 311:5
mentioned 11:24, miles 162:13, 194:23, 242:21, month 152:4,
16:6, 20:1, 177:7 261:12 165:3, 191:15,
122:23, 153:22, military 126:21 minutes 9:7, 211:23, 257:24,
172:3, 191:1, MILLER 9:20, 10:5, 42:5, 257:25
201:9, 249:1, 19:11, 20:9, 88:13, 157:8, months 115:23,
250:6, 277:20 37:24, 43:7, 230:10, 230:17, 137:12, 138:7,
mentions 86:24 53:11, 70:17, 230:21, 296:8, 154:12, 166:20,
mentor 298:6, 76:13, 88:21, 296:10, 300:9, 191:25, 280:12,
298:9, 298:10, 92:25, 93:4, 300:10, 300:11 297:7
298:14, 298:15 100:6, 101:10, mischaracterizat moratorium
mentoring 44:8 105:20, 106:6, ion 285:25 80:12, 81:11,
Mercantile 93:19 111:11, 144:21, misleading 289:9 81:15, 178:25,
messed 194:9, 145:1, 145:13, missed 8:24, 9:5 270:15, 270:20,
198:6 218:3, 238:19, mistaken 189:10, 271:5, 273:6
messing 240:7 239:10, 240:6, 210:17 Morning 11:1,
met 125:15, 265:12, 265:14, mistress 75:8, 19:13, 20:13,
368
20:14, 38:16, mutually 161:6 Nationsbank 129:1, 129:2,
65:15, 88:21, myriad 287:24 276:9 137:4, 146:22,
103:23, 109:18, Myron 309:17, natural 232:25 152:1, 152:14,
109:19, 167:11, 315:20, 322:23 nature 21:8, 156:7, 156:8,
300:3 myself 14:25, 26:14, 111:16, 209:17, 209:23,
mortgage 56:14 59:22, 106:24, 136:10, 137:9, 210:5, 210:23,
Mosezell 309:19 125:5, 130:19, 137:11, 149:21, 211:21, 212:3
Moss 309:21 188:15 154:18, 188:21, News 38:16,
mostly 116:24, 195:15, 203:21, 65:15, 103:23
161:20 204:13, 284:17, Newsome 333:3
mother 110:12 <N> 289:9 Newspaper 85:16,
motion 65:17, N-E-A-L-Y 109:9 Neal 314:17 86:18, 288:16,
65:22, 83:18, NAME 20:15, near 116:21, 339:49
83:20, 84:2, 47:23, 56:7, 140:18, 141:19 next 80:23,
239:20 69:11, 69:12, necessarily 106:8, 113:7,
motions 18:3 69:21, 70:15, 15:5, 43:2, 70:5 113:10, 115:24,
motive 242:6 109:7, 110:20, necessary 116:14, 126:3,
mouth 17:14 111:18, 125:9, 138:22, 147:13, 127:22, 142:7,
moved 110:8, 128:20, 128:23, 165:9 226:2, 240:4,
110:16, 113:1, 129:1, 130:2, needed 28:21, 248:13, 258:12,
138:13, 149:8, 131:17, 152:19, 28:23, 29:3, 280:3, 288:25,
156:11, 225:21 157:22, 163:10, 34:6, 128:5, 300:2, 301:8,
movie 45:14 167:13, 177:16, 132:19, 156:8, 335:7
moving 23:19, 186:20, 201:17, 199:25, 268:16, nice 222:23,
82:22, 114:23, 210:21, 219:1, 298:23, 298:25, 223:24, 325:24,
139:16, 164:14 235:9, 248:21, 299:4, 299:6, 337:1
MR. MUREEN 271:25, 280:9, 323:23, 325:20 Nichols 322:25
300:20, 325:5 301:16, 322:5, needs 17:18, nickname 56:7
MS. DECKARD 338:2 17:22, 17:24, night 3:9
3:22, 231:8, named 72:21, 79:10, 139:22, nil 12:24
231:11, 326:11, 204:9, 205:8, 156:6, 170:13, Nine 49:3,
326:21, 326:23, 205:19 225:6 49:23, 49:24,
327:4, 327:6, names 68:22, negotiated 87:18 56:17, 154:12
327:8, 327:16, 69:7, 121:11, negotiating Nobody 113:23,
327:20, 327:25 153:5, 163:2, 101:13 114:19, 115:4,
muffled 112:7 173:6, 173:13, neighborhood 151:14, 190:6
multi-families 197:19, 265:21, 82:4, 245:15 Nodding 51:23,
183:5 266:4, 266:5, neighbors 181:19, 198:10,
multi-family 266:8, 325:25, 126:17, 254:14 260:4, 296:11
54:16, 56:2, 329:18 neither 48:17 nominated 51:22
56:10, 78:17, naming 266:8 Neva 304:18 nomination 53:12
128:12, 169:12, Napolitano Nevels 333:1 non-prosecution
222:21, 223:1, 309:23 new 5:15, 27:24, 203:15
223:7, 272:22 narrowly 60:20 28:21, 28:23, None 5:18,
multiple 62:10 Nash 332:22, 29:2, 29:3, 84:18, 93:11,
multiplied 19:5 332:24 29:10, 29:14, 135:12, 144:13,
municipal 13:24 Nation 179:22 30:20, 43:17, 189:16, 221:6
MUREEN 2:4, national 118:21, 43:18, 43:22, nonresponsive
299:22, 300:19, 118:22, 275:22, 44:2, 62:22, 80:18, 165:16,
326:1 276:2 76:11, 128:21, 212:9, 217:7,
369
225:4, 225:25, 207:12, 208:15, 98:9, 132:16, offering 20:1,
226:19, 227:19, 218:13, 220:25, 295:10, 324:11 135:23
228:13 221:1, 221:2, occasion 50:3, Office 2:13,
Nor 87:14, 90:1, 251:24, 263:13, 50:5, 72:17, 2:22, 11:17,
92:20, 293:24 275:5, 275:21, 89:20, 135:1, 25:6, 25:8,
normal 33:21 276:2, 276:18, 167:19, 196:9, 26:2, 26:3,
normally 157:25, 277:22, 278:21, 298:17 26:5, 29:3,
269:15 295:22, 295:23, occasions 115:6, 29:11, 33:3,
Northern 1:2, 299:20 154:7, 185:18, 33:12, 33:25,
1:30, 340:17 numerous 207:16, 191:9, 192:6, 34:5, 34:18,
Northpark 95:20 218:14, 218:17 278:21, 298:3 34:19, 35:12,
Northrupt 309:25 occur 142:12, 35:22, 36:9,
Northwest 2:23 302:15 36:15, 36:23,
notably 111:23 <O> occurred 127:21, 40:11, 43:24,
note 306:25, O'bannon 333:5 138:17, 166:22 51:20, 67:3,
325:6 O'donnell 310:4 October 73:20, 118:5, 141:25,
noted 4:4, O'neal 333:7 174:19, 174:22, 150:20, 151:5,
85:19, 104:6, Oak 70:23, 175:14, 175:18, 188:2, 254:23,
197:7, 311:11 110:8, 110:16, 177:1, 180:5, 263:14, 297:21
notes 46:4, 179:18, 216:8 206:7, 207:2, officer 14:4
46:6, 71:6, Oaks 120:9 207:4, 209:16, Official 16:4,
77:5, 120:18, Obeso 310:2 210:22, 224:10, 16:11, 16:20,
120:22, 120:23, Object 4:22, 224:18 16:22, 17:1,
121:3, 221:10 5:17, 18:7, Odyssey 129:3, 17:2, 66:22,
Nothing 53:3, 36:3, 44:19, 129:6, 129:16, 219:19, 221:17,
226:17, 264:9, 54:18, 68:21, 130:13, 142:3, 221:20, 339:31,
266:7, 267:7, 73:13, 80:17, 145:18, 152:1, 340:16
267:13 100:8, 103:5, 152:12, 152:21, officials 36:21,
notice 12:4, 105:3, 127:14, 160:25, 187:23, 49:18, 127:2,
15:6, 15:9, 133:23, 134:22, 238:4, 238:5, 127:8, 127:18,
324:2, 326:15 139:2, 140:23, 238:6 131:22, 132:13,
notify 141:25 145:3, 148:11, Odyssey-providen 173:5, 208:12,
notwithstanding 149:20, 154:17, t 233:17 208:14, 230:6,
247:20, 248:7, 155:12, 179:5, Odyssey-providen 255:14, 295:4
248:12 180:10, 183:20, t. 234:10 often 22:19,
November 238:14, 185:12, 185:24, Odyssey. 233:9 48:3, 48:7,
239:15, 239:18, 197:5, 204:12, Odyssey/providen 49:4, 60:13,
239:20, 281:11 208:25, 212:8, t 233:5 60:23, 131:4,
nowhere 180:2 215:6, 220:20 offended 18:9 132:15, 132:17,
Number 10:22, objecting 17:16, offense 106:25 164:25, 165:3,
19:19, 37:2, 105:10, 295:25 offer 3:10, 196:7, 265:17
53:19, 55:18, objections 160:6 9:12, 10:19, Oji 310:6
61:22, 62:19, obligated 229:4 55:12, 55:16, old 110:5
63:8, 76:11, obligation 123:13, 136:21, oldest 156:11
76:13, 89:1, 229:21 140:20, 295:22 Once 22:1, 49:3,
90:18, 129:21, obvious 35:6, offered 4:21, 59:2, 108:16,
145:24, 152:6, 100:17 18:13, 18:14, 138:25, 226:11,
154:9, 161:11, Obviously 15:25, 106:11, 136:18, 226:24, 227:2,
166:1, 191:1, 36:7, 43:3, 136:19, 139:10, 272:23
191:9, 195:18, 51:10, 66:2, 155:14 one-on-one
370
218:15 137:9, 137:12, 135:14, 135:20 owned 21:4
one. 3:20, 3:21, 137:19, 138:22, outrage 260:5, owner 74:17,
64:20, 76:12, 138:25, 140:13, 260:9 141:13, 143:7,
98:16, 207:12, 142:11, 179:19, outraged 260:12 179:22, 260:16
211:2, 225:11, 179:20, 180:9, outs 199:4 ownership 74:8
263:13, 313:11 183:2, 183:9, Outside 10:13,
ones 163:4, 185:20, 185:21, 11:23, 20:16,
215:24, 215:25 185:22, 186:6, 21:14, 100:10, <P>
ongoing 174:16 186:20, 192:7, 108:7, 108:15, P. 2:12, 2:30,
open 11:24 243:18, 243:23, 114:11, 117:25, 340:5, 340:15
operate 44:14 245:16, 271:21, 159:16, 199:10, Pace 6:25,
opinion 16:5, 272:5, 275:21 199:12, 326:13, 231:4, 310:8,
16:14, 17:16, option 315:15 326:16 316:22
18:13, 18:20, optional 76:21 outstanding pad 200:23
18:22, 23:6, options 314:12 267:1, 268:7, pages 66:13,
25:23, 26:17, orally 14:19 268:16, 305:4 156:17
27:1, 27:3, order 4:12, overall 126:11 paid 52:17,
27:10, 32:6, 12:17, 165:21, overrule 54:21 130:12, 191:13,
32:9, 33:21, 203:24, 258:2, Overruled 22:18, 220:17, 257:19,
34:5, 35:2, 259:13, 259:18, 26:23, 32:19, 257:24, 257:25,
35:21, 40:17, 295:2, 295:3, 41:12, 41:22, 258:1, 266:25,
41:9, 48:20, 319:11 58:9, 58:24, 268:23, 269:4,
64:19, 64:22, ordinance 31:6 64:24, 85:19, 269:7, 269:21,
105:9, 119:16, ordinarily 86:11, 102:3, 277:6
155:21, 184:13, 186:15 103:6, 103:17, Paith 310:10
216:22, 216:24, organization 104:6, 104:16, Pam 73:4
217:4, 217:15, 129:2, 186:22 105:1, 136:24, Pancake 174:22,
217:16, 280:16, organizations 137:7, 138:3, 207:1
298:18 56:12, 276:3 139:13, 140:24, Pancakes 170:25,
opinions 9:16, orientation 145:4, 155:2, 171:4, 192:3,
14:16, 14:19, 62:23 155:15, 179:7, 205:24
17:20, 26:13, Original 6:4, 180:14, 185:6, panel 156:18
34:9, 34:19, 170:25, 171:4, 185:14, 186:9, Pankey 315:13
78:6 192:3, 205:23, 186:11, 193:9, paper 30:25
opponent 155:13 314:2 193:11, 197:7, Pappadeaux
opportunity originally 204:14, 215:8, 181:13, 182:18,
24:9, 38:7, 131:12, 296:24 216:21, 228:14, 183:1, 187:6,
45:16, 45:17, others 60:1, 244:15, 261:17, 188:11, 272:13,
45:20, 169:19, 150:22, 174:2, 289:11 277:3, 277:23,
256:6 195:11, 285:11, oversee 114:22 278:20, 278:22,
opposed 15:17, 313:13, 313:15 Overton 91:1, 280:23, 285:7,
15:18, 97:19, Otherwise 6:10, 91:7 285:14
128:8, 173:15, 6:12, 12:6, owe 257:6, paragraph 64:1,
179:2, 216:5, 12:20, 12:22, 257:8, 266:21 129:22, 232:20,
222:17, 273:5 15:10, 16:2, owed 281:16 288:25, 290:13
opposes 186:19 92:13, 221:21, owes 266:22, parameters 44:14
opposition 326:19 268:6 paraphrasing
59:25, 60:2, Otis 334:14 own 35:21, 21:7, 23:9,
97:10, 98:5, ought 22:11 102:22, 135:16, 198:6
98:21, 136:23, Out-of-court 156:11 parents 182:10
371
Park 110:12, 11:24, 18:4, 112:5, 119:18, 31:13, 36:8,
110:18, 111:25, 57:18 190:6, 249:2 71:7, 98:9,
114:12, 116:20, particulars Pastor 324:8 100:13, 115:9,
153:9, 154:3, 32:2, 186:19, pattern 291:18, 121:12, 146:10,
155:5, 155:18, 292:22, 293:5 291:21 146:20, 156:11,
155:24, 157:18, parties 12:4, Paul 162:20 157:10, 165:15,
158:10, 158:16, 275:8 pay 123:13, 166:3, 169:16,
158:17, 159:11, parting 47:9, 141:22, 142:3, 169:19, 170:17,
161:14, 161:16, 47:12 149:19, 194:17, 172:6, 180:18,
162:10, 163:18, Partner 45:6, 257:3, 257:10, 190:20, 196:17,
164:4, 164:18, 47:13, 152:17, 268:3, 268:19, 197:15, 197:21,
173:24, 174:23, 293:13, 293:14, 269:19, 282:6 205:20, 220:15,
177:3, 177:18, 293:15 paying 267:25, 228:23, 229:18,
192:1, 213:4, Partners 129:16, 268:19, 270:9, 239:9, 249:10,
214:23, 215:20, 142:3, 145:18, 277:8, 277:11 258:10, 258:14,
221:21, 238:2, 152:1, 152:12, payment 149:25, 267:19, 272:4,
249:4 160:25, 187:23 253:13, 282:1 275:2, 295:3,
Parsons 333:9 parts 232:3 payments 92:8 295:4
Part 64:24, party 14:9, peace 83:15, per 141:22,
74:17, 93:15, 75:19, 75:20, 203:20 142:20, 143:25,
94:19, 98:14, 75:21, 75:23, Pecan 153:20, 190:6, 257:3
99:17, 119:25, 155:13, 189:19, 153:21, 162:9, perceived 263:13
120:17, 126:13, 189:20, 189:23, 163:14, 177:8, percent 166:17,
151:22, 157:24, 189:25, 190:2, 177:11, 177:12, 166:18, 269:15
162:1, 162:2, 190:11, 190:14, 177:17, 178:6, percentage
162:14, 172:24, 190:17, 239:24, 215:13, 215:20, 172:12
183:6, 202:20, 240:4, 240:15, 238:10, 238:11, percentages
212:3, 223:23, 248:13 238:15, 238:23, 172:13, 173:15
227:7, 238:12, Pass 76:2, 238:24, 239:11, perfect 256:25,
249:24, 250:8, 106:5, 178:2, 240:9, 240:14, 273:7, 273:23
250:13, 263:18, 198:19, 240:9, 247:16, 248:13, perfectly
266:23, 268:7, 248:16 267:4, 267:5, 290:23, 325:19
268:13, 270:8, passage 258:4 267:8, 267:14, perform 255:11
278:5, 294:13, passed 30:15, 267:17, 268:4, Perhaps 46:12,
294:14, 323:19 32:9, 32:16, 268:15, 269:9 90:18, 90:20,
participants 33:9, 132:18, Pemberton 120:2, 108:7, 188:3,
173:2 144:23, 149:24, 120:6, 120:11, 208:5, 313:24
participate 165:10, 165:11, 333:11 period 31:24,
65:2, 172:18, 166:9, 166:12, pending 24:16, 32:5, 33:16,
190:16 177:12, 178:3, 190:23, 191:17, 70:11, 114:2,
participates 178:7, 178:24, 191:24 115:22, 192:7,
66:24 192:13, 239:20, Pension 57:20, 193:24, 209:18,
participating 247:19, 249:19, 58:10, 58:11, 221:3, 228:3,
22:23, 57:1, 257:18, 267:17, 58:12, 59:3, 228:20, 297:5
65:19 268:4, 268:13 59:8, 76:21, periods 322:8,
participation passed. 242:19 94:6, 94:14, 322:10, 322:14
64:10, 172:18, passes 257:23 94:22, 95:7, perjury 107:20,
189:11, 276:16, passing 177:23 95:19 262:24
286:19 past 80:8, 81:1, people 17:13, permissible
Particularly 109:22, 111:19, 19:5, 30:14, 84:13
372
permission 4:2, 263:4 played 27:21, possibility
11:25, 46:13, phrased 24:13, 76:25, 77:1, 150:23, 262:14
283:24 236:8, 262:16, 239:14, 240:6 postponed 147:9
permit 55:15, 262:20, 297:20 played. 296:15 Potashniks 67:9,
146:4, 184:10, pick 70:22 playing 239:3, 67:13, 67:18,
326:18 picked 28:24, 239:10, 296:17 69:3, 69:5,
permitted 184:12 71:2 plays 254:1 69:15, 71:11
permitting 77:3 piece 21:19, Pleasant 153:3, potential 91:22,
Perot 310:11, 30:24 153:22, 153:23, 93:13, 159:24,
336:8 place 81:11, 216:8, 235:13, 287:22, 288:4
perpetually 81:12, 132:11, 300:1 potentially
160:5 132:12, 206:20, pledge 253:19 287:7, 287:14
perplexed 28:21 226:12, 227:3, Plemons 310:13 POV 176:11
Personal 72:8, 229:1, 294:9 Plus 132:10, power 13:15,
115:18, 193:8, Plan 42:25, 170:3, 257:3, 13:16, 13:18,
218:16 60:14, 60:16, 267:3 14:5
personally 60:21, 90:25, pocket 274:16 powers 14:14
16:14, 71:8, 114:19, 115:17, point. 39:2, practice 14:8,
71:12, 199:1, 117:15, 117:18, 43:12, 45:8, 72:1
300:12 117:23, 121:1, 204:2, 240:23, preadmitted
persons 94:2 121:9, 121:21, 299:11 19:17
perspective 3:12 124:1, 126:11, Police 57:20, preference
pertain 62:8, 128:6, 137:17, 58:10, 94:6 216:16, 217:3,
76:17, 79:23, 196:20, 200:5, policy 14:13 217:19, 218:5
102:12, 228:2, 227:7, 244:20, political prefix 5:25
245:6 256:20, 257:13, 109:21, 111:14, prejudice
pertained 84:5, 297:24, 298:11 112:15, 113:3, 225:22, 226:5,
212:22 planned 58:10 117:2, 119:23, 227:1
pertaining planning 42:20, 249:18, 297:14, preliminary
62:24, 63:14 43:13, 43:17, 297:17, 297:19 127:21, 133:4,
pertains 64:3, 60:17, 60:21, politicians 166:9, 166:10,
86:21, 87:4, 113:15, 113:16, 295:17 166:12, 166:13,
91:10, 91:13, 114:6, 114:9, politics 110:11, 166:20
91:15, 92:1, 114:11, 114:13, 233:4, 233:16, Prentice 306:1,
92:7, 102:13, 127:23, 161:23, 233:20, 233:23, 318:20, 330:24
207:20, 212:4, 162:3, 164:2, 234:3, 234:6, prepare 129:11
218:5, 221:20 165:22, 165:23, 234:10, 234:17, prepared 231:3
peruses 214:15 168:3, 169:6, 236:25, 237:9 preparing 71:15
Pete 9:15 181:22, 193:14, politics. 233:13 prescribed 340:9
phase 127:20, 193:23, 195:6, portion 77:1, presence 10:13,
299:12 195:15, 199:7, 158:20 108:8, 108:15,
Phillip 312:7 245:3, 245:9, posed 175:10 159:16, 326:13,
phone 218:16, 245:13, 298:13, posing 23:15 326:16
220:17, 241:8, 316:13 position 113:21, present 16:4,
255:21 Plano 222:16 114:4, 183:4, 16:13, 16:16,
phonetic 14:6 plans 126:8 199:8, 199:25, 30:18, 87:18,
photographs plate 23:12 200:5, 323:20 111:21, 121:12,
313:22, 313:23 play 76:22, positive 232:17 203:2
phrase 24:20, 209:18, 295:21, Poss 317:22, presentation
145:17, 153:8, 299:19, 300:14 323:2 17:23, 179:4,
373
179:11, 255:17 13:4, 13:12, produce 224:11 275:14
presented 74:7, 13:13, 13:17, produced 2:38, proposing 97:20,
106:3, 129:5, 14:6, 14:10, 12:17 98:6, 226:25
137:18, 211:6, 14:11, 15:6, product 222:17 prosecutable
237:14 15:10, 15:20, production 108:1
presenting 16:9, 16:12, 12:18, 12:21, prosecute 35:25,
302:18 22:16, 26:18, 31:2 262:10, 262:25,
presently 80:8, 41:21, 85:13, productive 87:10 263:15
81:1 104:15, 104:19, professional prosecuted
preserve 13:1 306:15, 323:21 92:14 107:16, 262:4,
President privileged proffer 326:17 263:15, 263:19
110:19, 110:23, 26:21, 32:17, profited 100:6 prosecution
110:25, 118:4 104:25 program 117:18, 97:7, 105:19,
presidential privy 16:1, 117:19 105:22, 106:23,
110:23 87:21, 203:5, programmed 158:1 108:4, 246:22,
press 17:12 203:8, 203:11, programs 128:14 248:1, 248:4
pressure 291:1 241:15 progress 19:16 prosecutors
Pretty 71:6, probable 301:16 prohibited 22:23 201:23, 202:1,
169:4, 175:1, problem 25:10, projects. 234:21 203:3, 203:6,
224:7, 254:8, 66:13, 84:3, promise 227:6, 203:16, 205:8,
266:16 136:13, 137:22, 261:11 205:9
prevailing 12:24 157:24, 171:17, promised 224:17, protect 16:12,
preview 17:7 196:25, 264:24 227:4, 253:17, 16:15
previous 127:25, problems 164:7, 261:8, 261:10, protecting
192:10, 211:22, 171:19, 265:2 263:5 11:18, 12:10,
245:15, 246:11, procedural promises 263:7 15:16, 15:19
254:5 239:4, 239:10, proper 23:7, protocol 70:11
previously 18:3, 239:15, 240:6 23:18, 35:3, provide 127:9,
20:10, 128:15, proceed 25:23, 84:9 135:10, 139:18,
128:16, 262:12 32:15, 34:13, properties 141:17, 175:4,
Price 110:17, 81:15, 84:12, 172:12, 179:1, 227:13, 268:23,
143:25, 316:25, 160:22, 216:21 179:24, 222:25 301:10
320:6 proceeding property 21:20, provided 123:19
principal 117:15 119:12 90:6, 90:9, Provident 124:7,
Prior 32:8, proceedings 90:19, 90:25, 124:12, 125:13,
113:19, 131:4, 2:37, 340:6 91:21, 91:24, 125:16, 128:19,
134:17, 137:22, process 18:2, 138:23, 141:13, 128:23, 129:3,
148:7, 173:11, 20:1, 71:6, 143:23, 157:14, 129:5, 129:16,
179:16, 191:15, 117:4, 118:20, 159:11, 162:9, 130:13, 131:12,
207:10 127:3, 133:3, 163:7, 172:2, 132:3, 142:2,
priority 216:16, 133:8, 137:13, 179:22, 192:21, 145:18, 147:12,
217:19, 218:5 138:13, 139:16, 193:6, 222:6, 150:1, 151:25,
privacy 284:2 151:1, 152:14, 226:17, 275:15 152:1, 152:12,
private 75:19, 157:13, 158:13, proposal 65:25, 160:25, 167:14,
75:21, 274:14 158:14, 164:17, 236:1 176:10, 176:13,
privately-owned 172:16, 175:9, proposals 98:6, 178:16, 187:23,
74:20 191:1, 195:5, 256:11 215:13, 270:19
privilege 11:18, 254:1, 271:20 propose 98:22 provision 64:2,
12:11, 12:19, procurement proposed 216:9, 65:18
12:20, 12:23, 266:6 237:11, 238:8, provisions
374
66:19, 67:4 242:3, 263:8, 305:9, 314:12 145:15, 199:17,
proximity 162:21 284:9, 284:16, ranged 171:21 199:18, 199:20,
prudent 28:9, 284:23, 284:25, rarely 71:9 199:24, 200:7,
44:4, 52:19 285:3, 290:5, Rasansky 310:16 274:6
Public 17:6, 324:2 rate 142:20, reality 132:6,
18:5, 21:15, putting 170:6 143:25, 166:8, 224:8, 226:12
36:21, 49:18, 166:15, 257:3 realize 327:9
102:20, 103:3, rather 296:19 realized 151:1,
112:3, 127:8, <Q> Ravkind 107:5, 270:19
127:18, 131:21, Quail 142:17, 107:7, 151:10, Really 29:21,
144:22, 145:17, 142:18 286:24, 287:17, 36:18, 36:19,
145:22, 173:5, questioned 47:3 287:18, 287:20 48:21, 121:18,
178:22, 225:21, questioning RAY 1:36 133:4, 217:16,
230:5, 249:22, 138:2, 238:22, re 339:28 224:17, 236:6,
260:5, 297:21 246:21 re-call 316:13 244:3, 272:19,
pull 3:15, 3:21, quick 77:5, Re-cross 77:3, 282:5
37:3, 62:19, 77:10 338:9, 338:11 realm 119:23
120:14, 129:8, quickly 101:5, Re-direct Realty 124:7,
140:25, 178:9, 282:23, 300:2, 100:11, 338:7, 124:12, 125:13,
187:15 328:2 338:13 125:16, 128:19,
pull-aside Quinn 162:20 reach 112:8 128:23, 131:13,
220:14 quite 16:17, reached 245:16 132:3, 147:12,
purchase 91:22 24:19, 30:6, read 4:5, 32:23, 150:1, 151:25,
purport 9:16, 48:3, 160:20, 37:17, 37:19, 167:14
78:15 165:3, 319:9 37:21, 38:4, reason 27:10,
purpose 15:18, quote 23:9 38:7, 38:9, 34:8, 48:8,
25:7, 101:22, 38:10, 38:12, 80:20, 108:16,
102:4, 117:22, 38:14, 39:2, 115:10, 204:6,
127:19, 136:21, <R> 39:20, 40:5, 257:17, 271:16,
168:18 R. 2:4, 143:21 40:6, 40:20, 271:17, 274:6,
purposes 15:19, race 116:11 40:22, 41:17, 293:20, 293:22
25:17, 72:9, races 72:3 85:10, 85:22, reasoning 13:20
318:13 radius 161:11 86:18, 88:9, reasons 21:17,
pursuant 12:17 Ragsdale 333:13 88:10, 89:20, 59:12, 161:14,
pursue 17:18 raise 109:6, 89:21, 141:3, 292:16, 294:10
push 50:11 317:5 141:9, 141:15, receipt 188:7,
pushed 50:11, raised 138:25, 156:17, 174:13, 188:24, 258:3,
95:17, 95:22, 140:2, 142:11, 214:13, 232:5, 277:4
96:9 145:14, 158:14, 232:6, 232:20, receipts 339:27
pushing 94:19, 172:8, 175:2, 254:22, 290:10, receive 71:14,
95:2, 95:5 175:5, 176:25, 313:18 72:4, 92:13,
put 10:12, 27:7, 177:13, 192:8 reader 208:7 267:3
53:17, 67:3, raiser 75:19 reading 54:18, received 69:10,
70:15, 71:3, Ramsey 310:15 55:10, 85:15, 70:9, 127:21,
76:15, 80:12, ran 45:3, 67:19, 88:5, 142:1, 287:18
81:11, 81:12, 110:17, 110:18, 232:23, 234:22 receiving 68:14,
101:5, 117:20, 113:6, 116:9, reads 88:3 69:3
136:23, 164:9, 250:19 ready 300:15 recent 249:2
178:25, 183:7, Randy 331:9 real 59:8, 77:5, recently 111:24
202:12, 237:23, range 111:3, 94:20, 114:10, receptive
375
127:12, 127:17 282:9, 282:12, 169:22, 192:17 188:1, 194:1
recess 88:13, 282:17, 294:17, referring 40:9, relates 42:11,
230:11 295:4, 296:3, 90:16, 153:10, 326:17
recess. 160:14, 296:4 249:24 relating 61:23,
230:14 recordings reflect 11:15, 67:3
recessed 144:21 93:13, 295:6 12:16, 267:3 relation 122:16,
recognize recordkeeping reflection 11:21 154:6, 157:18,
120:22, 131:17, 71:19 refresh 46:10, 158:9, 161:6,
141:12, 143:2, records 8:22, 46:17, 46:23, 177:7, 180:9,
143:7, 144:3, 175:4, 267:3 53:23, 55:5, 192:20
161:4, 175:24, recreation 68:9, 220:4, relations
187:18, 188:3, 114:12 238:25 145:18, 145:22
251:6 RECROSS-EXAMINAT refused 134:20 relationship
recollection ION 77:19, 93:2 regard 10:19, 24:2, 36:20,
46:11, 46:18, Recruited 60:1 26:14, 71:20, 44:11, 63:22,
46:23, 53:23, recusal 20:20, 115:16, 288:2, 108:22, 118:7,
55:5, 68:9, 24:24, 84:5, 293:16 123:21, 128:5,
218:13, 269:9 161:17, 294:5 Regarding 21:19, 257:5, 280:19,
recommend recuse 22:25, 24:25, 25:3, 293:16
197:24, 265:25 23:19, 65:1 57:3, 58:15, Relatively 44:2
recommendation recused 23:24, 68:9, 92:9, Relevance 36:3,
57:3, 60:22, 25:2, 147:25, 103:22, 161:9, 73:13, 73:15,
61:6, 61:9, 263:11, 289:25, 189:9, 189:18, 100:8, 103:16,
61:14, 61:19, 290:18, 290:20 193:5, 193:6, 105:4, 137:1,
104:2, 104:13, recuses 40:12, 207:6, 210:12, 137:3, 137:5,
104:24, 259:10 41:19 226:24, 232:17, 138:2, 140:23,
recommendations recusing 23:7, 243:4, 258:2, 147:19, 215:6,
56:20, 59:22, 289:22 263:9, 268:17, 246:23, 261:16
60:8, 60:14, REDIRECT 53:9, 285:9, 286:12, relevancy 103:5,
60:16, 60:17, 76:4, 100:24, 287:24 139:12, 154:22
60:19, 102:15, 101:1 regardless relevant 179:6,
114:23, 151:3, Reed 145:20, 66:10, 101:10, 212:20, 214:9,
173:18, 265:18, 145:21, 146:9, 262:3, 262:9, 221:3, 228:2
266:8 258:14, 259:3, 262:23 relied 35:22,
recommended 259:13, 333:15 regards 21:4, 36:2, 42:16
53:18, 102:8, Reese 66:3, 28:7, 28:8, rely 33:21,
102:9, 140:9, 84:11, 314:21, 45:17, 45:21, 219:22
173:12, 225:21 317:5 46:7, 50:7 relying 324:11
record 4:5, refer 63:12, registered 266:6 remain 133:2
10:14, 12:16, 152:25, 158:3, regret 12:8 remained 245:16
15:19, 26:22, 266:5 regular 56:13, remaining 301:7,
62:6, 108:13, reference 87:15, 116:5 302:15
109:7, 136:25, 89:25, 90:1, regulations remark 96:16
186:14, 219:12, 90:6, 90:22, 62:23 Remembering
252:3, 252:20, 90:24, 91:6, Reid 333:17 277:21, 277:23
252:23, 326:19, 92:19, 92:20, Reidy 310:20 reminds 299:15
340:6 175:6, 235:19 related 15:6, removal 50:22
recorded 70:5, referenced 21:2, 46:8, Remuneration
283:21 242:11 102:15, 106:25, 130:11, 256:25
recording 76:22, referred 153:4, 176:10, 176:22, render 26:13
376
rendered 32:6, 127:5, 127:6, 57:18, 61:7, retired 88:17,
105:9 127:9 63:1, 65:14, 115:8, 159:20,
renew 146:21 Representatives 65:18, 66:4, 230:13, 300:5
rent 223:9 56:11, 118:17 66:12, 71:14, retrack 134:1
repeat 166:11, represented 74:9, 75:18, return 175:10,
177:9, 186:17, 16:16, 86:22, 76:13, 84:25, 255:21
199:3, 200:9, 107:7, 151:5 101:19, 103:22, returned 19:12,
204:21, 204:23, representing 235:25, 325:16 160:16, 231:15
205:1, 205:3, 42:7 respectfully Rev. 334:14
228:4, 230:3, Reputable 254:10 12:3 revamp 28:9
294:3, 318:18 reputation respond 196:23, Reverand 120:24,
repeatedly 183:19, 183:20, 198:14, 302:13 123:15, 256:17
106:2, 295:13 184:13, 184:15, Response 59:10, Reverend 122:5,
repeating 320:16 250:23 70:3, 135:6, 253:13, 253:19,
repertoire request 128:15, 135:7, 135:19, 321:22
315:16 134:12, 135:2, 136:16, 139:3, review 32:2,
repetitious 135:3, 149:25, 139:8, 139:9, 46:21
216:19 189:18, 190:14, 159:1, 159:3, reviewed 46:22
Rephrase 104:21, 190:22, 256:21 190:3, 196:24, Richard 310:8,
146:24, 150:17, requested 265:7, 315:3 312:3, 315:7,
159:9, 193:21, 265:9 responsibility 316:22, 329:21
262:21, 276:5, requestor 16:24, 286:8, 288:4 Richardson
284:14, 284:20, 16:25, 17:4 responsible 323:17, 323:19
286:3 requests 80:13, 170:6 Richie 303:14,
replace 121:17 127:17 rest 38:11, 321:5
replacement require 216:12 40:5, 40:20, Rick 331:3,
297:7 required 12:6, 40:22, 83:15, 333:9
reply 174:10 170:11, 212:12, 203:20, 231:2 RICKEY 1:15,
replying 174:9 228:12, 228:20 Restaurant 2:20
report 43:11, requirements 181:13, 196:8 rid 295:16
53:24, 56:24, 30:21, 95:6 restriction riding 271:15
101:20, 102:8 requires 156:17 192:12 rights 18:4,
reported 2:37, reserve 4:21 restrictions 250:13
75:25 reserving 6:3 128:9, 192:10 rise 88:16,
Reporter 2:30, residence result 22:17, 159:19, 160:13,
32:22, 33:24, 254:23, 254:24 59:18, 83:9, 230:12
109:5, 340:16 residents 114:5, 83:12, 83:16, rjackson@jackson
reporting 11:15 245:16, 254:4, 84:12, 177:2, firm.net 1:42
reports 69:9, 254:8, 254:10 276:7, 279:2 Road 11:9, 91:1,
71:14, 71:22, resign 51:25, resulted 276:9 91:7, 95:14,
75:25 52:21, 52:24 results 90:24 162:21, 162:25,
represent 20:15, resignation 50:7 resume 159:18, 163:4, 177:7,
87:13, 87:15, resigned 52:2 159:22 213:17
181:21, 248:22, resistance 59:19 retail 90:25, Robert 332:18
280:9 resisting 59:13 179:2, 183:4, Roberts 56:6
representation resolution 183:6, 183:7, Robertson 1:15,
87:11, 88:6 232:17 189:12, 189:13, 2:20, 116:14,
representations resolve 236:24, 272:19, 273:2, 310:22, 327:17,
302:16 237:9 273:6 327:19
representative respect 14:7, retained 249:21 Robinson 317:24,
377
323:6 row 226:24 338:7, 338:13 255:17
Rockwall 156:12 Royce 320:14 Saleem 152:17, scheduled
Rodriguez 336:10 RPR/CSR 2:30, 152:19, 175:4, 142:11, 167:10,
Rogers 310:24, 340:5, 340:15 307:12, 316:10, 167:15, 168:13,
311:1 Ruble 315:5 320:10, 322:19 168:15, 182:23,
role 115:5, ruckus 145:7, San 294:18, 187:10, 231:5,
127:2, 146:13, 258:9 294:24, 295:4, 231:6
153:2, 170:14, rude 327:11 295:7 scheduling
173:20, 193:14, Rule 10:15, Sandra 116:9 173:25
253:25 14:23, 14:25, Sara 310:20 schematics 126:8
roll 19:19, 18:9, 28:9, SARAH 1:26 School 132:9,
19:20 99:1, 159:25, sat 145:24 179:18
Romanov 315:9 186:10, 246:19 satisfied 15:20 scope 100:10,
Ron 111:7, ruled 289:7, save 37:19, 108:12
111:8, 305:12, 290:23 305:16 Scott 250:7,
316:25, 319:25, rules 23:19, saved 19:18, 333:19, 335:13
320:6, 335:11 27:24, 28:23, 19:21 screen 38:1,
Ronald 334:6 29:3, 29:14, saw 41:24, 38:9, 87:7,
rookie 297:14, 30:8, 30:9, 49:16, 51:8, 212:19, 231:23,
297:16, 297:19 31:2, 31:7, 58:14, 179:3, 254:22
rookies 299:12 31:8, 31:14, 179:10, 209:12, screw 198:13
room 11:25, 35:3, 59:14, 211:3, 211:5 screwed 194:6,
20:5, 20:23, 59:17, 60:5, saying 18:20, 279:3, 279:8,
26:3, 107:13, 62:23, 98:15, 27:19, 28:25, 279:11
133:12, 145:24, 98:21, 98:25, 29:1, 46:4, scroll 39:8,
146:20, 151:14 99:2, 100:13, 60:1, 81:8, 243:13, 255:4
rope 282:20 199:1, 200:12, 190:10, 204:22, scrolling 63:13
Rose 31:21, 212:4, 213:16, 208:14, 224:15, Scrubbs 323:16
131:15, 131:18, 244:3 239:3, 239:9, Scyene 73:20,
132:16, 138:23, ruling 154:25 290:1, 299:17 76:17, 87:15,
142:17, 143:23 run 118:13, says 37:24, 90:1, 91:13,
Rosemont 76:17, 328:2 39:12, 40:1, 92:21, 101:11,
86:21, 87:5, Running 111:7, 86:1, 86:9, 216:2, 236:25,
87:14, 87:15, 134:7, 138:1, 87:4, 120:20, 237:1, 237:9
89:25, 90:1, 139:12, 147:15, 141:5, 141:24, search 51:8
90:4, 91:10, 154:21, 155:1, 143:6, 161:9, seat 109:11,
91:13, 92:20, 208:15, 220:1 171:8, 232:22, 145:2, 297:5
92:21, 120:2, runoff 116:9 234:17, 234:20, seated 144:22,
120:6, 120:9, runs 219:25 234:24, 235:25, 160:17, 195:2,
141:18, 163:19, Rushbrooke 313:6 242:5, 242:20, 231:16, 300:6
192:20, 193:6, rushed 117:10 244:9, 245:21, second 6:2,
213:4, 214:22, Ryan 305:7, 251:12, 288:23, 32:8, 39:22,
216:2, 216:3, 319:7, 336:4 290:17 68:18, 69:15,
222:2, 237:1, scenario 286:7 89:9, 160:5,
237:9, 237:11, Schaefer 319:15 169:18, 213:23,
237:17, 237:24 <S> Schaffner 311:3, 213:25, 232:20,
Ross 2:6 Saldana 1:26, 319:16 251:10, 256:24,
round 269:22 53:8, 76:15, schedule 117:5, 290:13, 313:22,
rounds 325:20 82:17, 86:22, 117:6, 119:3, 335:22
routinely 251:19 89:17, 92:19, 121:23, 121:25, seconds 10:4,
378
19:18 bal.net 2:34 set 83:6, 65:14, 82:17,
Section 14:1 senior 130:3, 284:10, 286:7, 136:22, 211:11,
Sector 94:3, 200:18, 200:25, 291:12 277:4, 290:4
156:5, 169:2, 201:5, 201:10, sets 14:13, showing 171:7,
169:22, 179:2, 235:8 41:15, 129:13, 211:19, 218:23
210:19, 273:2, seniors 82:14 129:18 shown 54:20,
276:2, 276:10, sense 17:9, seven 49:21, 67:3, 68:8,
276:21 29:24, 35:25, 268:24, 269:6 69:6, 69:18,
Secured 139:23 45:14, 128:17, seven" 142:1 69:20, 82:22,
securities 140:4 271:10, 272:11, seven-month 82:23, 83:2,
Security 21:3, 273:7, 273:23 297:4 103:23, 152:3
115:9, 133:14, sent 20:5, 232:9 Several 10:13, shows 68:22,
133:15, 134:3, sentence 64:7, 17:20, 40:9, 182:14, 182:20
134:4, 134:7, 244:19 111:19, 115:6, sic 44:5, 97:5,
139:1, 139:6, separated 149:11, 162:13, 110:25, 139:1,
139:17, 139:25, 171:22, 217:24 166:20, 191:15, 139:6, 218:25,
140:3, 140:6, September 51:24, 196:4, 196:9, 220:5, 225:14
140:7, 140:10, 52:3, 66:7, 207:14, 258:10, side 124:16,
140:14, 141:6, 181:16, 182:12, 266:3, 266:4, 174:17, 222:21,
141:11, 141:17, 183:1, 187:6, 266:5, 269:17, 223:14, 274:8,
141:25, 142:8, 187:13, 211:23, 280:12, 288:23, 297:9
143:20, 149:16, 275:13 298:3, 314:7 sidebar 185:12
339:37, 339:40, series 6:8, Shafer 314:19 sideways 196:12,
339:43 6:19, 6:21, shakes 261:6 196:13, 197:13,
seeing 94:3, 6:23, 7:4, 7:6, shaping 98:15 209:20, 212:21,
211:2 7:12, 7:19, share 249:23 224:19, 297:13,
seek 234:21 7:23, 8:2, 8:5, sheets 71:5 298:2
seeking 25:22, 8:8, 8:11, 8:12, Sheila 1:13, Siegel 258:18,
26:14 8:16, 185:7 2:3, 3:19, 75:4, 258:19, 259:4,
seem 87:9 serve 53:18, 208:5, 247:22, 259:17
seemed 64:14 111:11 299:19 sign 71:17
seems 156:20, served 111:11, Shelia 113:7 signal 10:12
156:24 113:15, 113:16 Sherman 311:7 signature
seen 46:6, 85:1, service 140:5 Shirley 56:6, 141:13, 143:2,
93:13, 131:4, service. 142:4 301:20, 333:3 143:6, 143:7,
203:16, 211:1, services 123:19, Shopping 77:15 143:9
211:8, 211:12, 129:5, 139:18, short 70:11 signatures
211:13, 211:18, 141:17, 142:1, shorter 326:9 144:3, 144:4
237:22, 243:10, 250:9, 257:2 shouldn't 30:3, signed 130:20,
247:20, 247:24, serving 113:23, 30:4, 30:5, 130:23, 141:12,
248:5, 270:16 115:4, 115:12 32:14, 43:3, 144:12, 149:18,
Segedy 311:5 session 21:12, 285:20 152:4, 189:15,
Seifu 312:24 21:14, 21:17, show 11:20, 291:15
seldom 125:5 22:2, 25:14, 37:1, 93:14, significance
seminar 118:15 25:18, 31:17, 136:22, 181:20, 194:15
Senator 111:3, 33:7, 39:17, 227:3, 227:11, significant
126:20, 127:5, 40:7, 45:1, 260:9, 265:8, 14:15, 60:14,
127:9 138:21, 144:23, 265:9, 273:23, 61:11
send 230:24 288:19 288:15, 322:10 signing 142:2,
sengledow@sbcglo session. 40:1 showed 46:10, 142:12
379
similar 44:12, situation 16:23, Someone 34:15, Southern 94:3,
154:14, 253:7, 20:17, 23:3, 65:22, 65:24, 120:9, 156:5,
253:9, 295:3 23:15, 23:22, 66:5, 301:18, 169:2, 169:22,
SIMONTON 1:28 23:23, 24:1, 313:11 179:2, 210:19,
simple 194:12 24:24, 25:20, Sometime 47:15, 223:23, 273:2,
simply 184:15, 25:24, 27:12, 138:16, 139:19, 276:1, 276:10,
226:16 33:5, 35:15, 206:7 276:21
Simpson 130:5, 39:3, 39:5, Sometimes 17:13, Southwest 57:12,
153:1, 153:14, 39:7, 39:10, 100:13, 128:3, 57:18, 58:15,
153:18, 162:5, 44:9, 52:9, 166:1, 199:22 67:22, 67:25,
162:8, 162:9, 63:19, 83:12, somewhat 28:20, 68:2, 68:6,
162:19, 162:20, 83:16, 84:25, 29:12, 29:13 73:20, 75:5,
163:2, 163:8, 154:14, 166:22, Somewhere 91:23, 101:13,
163:12, 223:1, 284:10, 284:17, 115:23, 116:22, 120:2, 120:20,
243:15, 243:17, 286:19, 287:8, 202:13, 269:11 121:6, 121:16,
243:20, 245:9, 287:13, 287:14, son 21:4, 201:2, 123:22, 157:14,
246:3, 247:10, 287:22, 288:3, 250:10 158:10, 159:6,
247:17, 248:14 295:3 Sonny 335:15 233:4, 233:8,
sin 246:16 situations Sorry 3:27, 233:16, 234:10,
single 30:24, 287:10 5:10, 9:20, 234:24, 235:6,
102:12, 270:25 six 115:23, 14:22, 15:2, 235:20, 256:15,
single-family 156:17, 285:6, 19:23, 29:6, 256:19, 292:3,
156:2, 164:5, 297:4, 297:7 29:7, 29:8, 292:6
169:3, 169:9, six-month 32:23, 35:17, Southwestern
169:20, 223:8 270:15, 297:4 40:20, 57:9, 130:3
single-member size 156:12, 63:6, 63:18, speaking 23:10,
119:19 170:1 79:5, 96:3, 57:13, 62:10,
singling 76:23 sketch 126:13 98:17, 106:13, 210:20, 245:10,
sinister 266:7 Skillestad 311:9 109:3, 158:7, 289:24, 300:12
sins 246:14 skipped 189:17 176:20, 186:14, specific 46:7,
Sir 89:4, Sleeper 314:17 284:18, 291:24, 52:2, 133:9,
120:19, 130:10, slide 112:10, 311:11, 315:14, 173:4, 173:12,
163:1, 178:17, 215:23 316:7, 318:13, 210:9, 212:2,
182:19, 202:14, slip 71:4 318:22, 319:9, 215:18, 218:12,
206:22, 227:15, Slow 4:8, 109:25 319:12 230:5, 265:18,
235:11, 268:9, smart 298:21, Sort 28:2, 44:8, 266:2
271:22, 276:15, 298:22 49:10, 50:10, Specifically
279:13, 282:8, smiled 198:15 51:12, 118:7, 16:7, 46:25,
325:24 Smith 125:6, 121:6, 137:21, 54:5, 54:8,
sit 15:1, 112:9 333:21, 333:23, 145:2, 154:10 61:5, 65:3,
site 126:11, 333:25, 334:2 sorts 171:19 193:4, 197:18,
126:16, 128:11, Social 115:9 Sotto 46:16, 288:1, 290:9
137:17, 227:7 solicited 26:21, 195:1 speculation
sites 128:13, 72:3 sound 6:16, 36:4, 99:10,
161:6 Somebody 35:23, 112:6, 112:13, 105:4, 193:7
sits 158:1 71:5, 115:7, 296:18 spell 109:7
Sitting 12:6, 159:8, 193:4, sounds 126:1 spelled 245:20
15:5, 22:8, 199:24, 200:10, South 124:19, spells 31:7
113:7, 116:14, 271:20, 274:24, 179:18, 216:7, Spencer 311:12,
178:22, 329:16 284:25, 299:6 235:13 316:7, 318:1
380
spend 12:6, 118:11, 118:14, Steele 327:7 2:15, 120:13,
24:4, 88:4 123:18, 138:5, Steely 334:4 157:14, 158:11,
spent 19:24, 145:14, 164:21, Steinhart 334:6 158:20, 159:6,
164:22 172:15, 173:19, Steinke 2:12, 159:11, 162:15,
Spigel 311:14, 209:19, 215:17, 2:13, 5:11, 174:17, 177:8,
316:19 270:7 6:25, 8:14, 194:2, 216:5,
split 47:21, starter 169:16, 8:22, 9:1, 222:3, 226:14
152:17, 152:22, 169:18 10:19, 33:23, Streets 90:14,
293:17, 293:20 starting 4:10, 33:25, 230:18, 170:9, 170:10
spoke 30:6, 11:10, 169:15 248:18, 248:21, strengthen 30:13
50:6, 50:16, starts 174:9, 256:2, 261:12, strengthening
190:2 244:20 281:18, 324:16, 30:16
sponsor 189:19 startup 142:4 328:1, 338:20 stretch 194:25
sponsors 190:4 State 63:1, stenography 2:37 stretching 112:8
sponte 247:3 63:13, 78:2, step 106:7, stricken 85:14
sporting 278:16 87:15, 100:16, 119:8, 155:7, strictly 131:14
Spound 311:16 100:18, 109:7, 236:12, 237:21 string 339:13
sprang 137:21 110:21, 112:3, steps 117:3, strong 60:2,
spreadsheet 126:20, 127:2, 119:9, 119:10, 165:12, 245:21
70:13 127:5, 127:6, 132:5 stronger 59:25
spring 125:23 127:9, 132:12, Steve 264:20, structure 137:18
Square 2:14, 132:13, 143:23, 312:22, 316:12, struggle 157:9
156:3, 156:4, 157:22, 161:9, 330:18, 339:14 Stuart 130:5,
156:13, 169:25, 161:13, 182:4 Steven 309:23 153:1, 153:14,
170:2, 170:3, stated 65:20, Stewart 125:6, 153:18, 162:6,
222:10, 222:12 69:11, 140:12, 313:7 162:8, 162:9,
Sr 201:15, 209:25, 262:11, stick 244:7 162:19, 162:20,
201:25 268:18, 286:14 stock 100:7 163:2, 163:8,
staff 60:8, statement 30:5, Stockton 334:8 223:1
60:22, 61:4, 46:22, 135:5, Stone 336:12 stuff 268:22
61:14, 61:17, 135:14, 135:16, stood 195:19 sua 247:3
61:19, 80:14, 135:20, 140:16, Stop 43:5, Subcontracted
81:14, 170:12, 148:15, 198:6, 63:15, 70:17, 121:7, 121:8
231:19 273:25, 297:9, 103:7, 157:19, subcontractor
stand 18:25, 298:7 192:25, 246:19 173:12
82:8, 109:5, statements stopped 191:9 subcontractors
219:11, 272:6 28:12, 228:21 stops 246:20, 265:25
standing 230:25 States 1:1, 1:5, 282:5 subject 4:6,
standpoint 84:9 1:21, 1:29, stories 136:14, 13:6, 14:13,
stands 257:17 118:1, 150:20, 137:18, 138:6, 15:15, 25:11,
Stanley 311:14, 151:4, 340:10 138:10 44:24, 89:13,
316:19 stating 64:9, story 37:16, 89:16, 108:4,
start 5:20, 117:21 40:5, 137:17, 147:17, 262:16,
71:5, 112:23, status 316:1 137:20, 137:21, 301:24, 306:15
142:1, 166:4, Stay 43:14, 138:10, 138:11, substance 15:16
169:16, 169:17 59:11, 96:12, 138:12 substantial
started 6:7, 133:9, 198:24, straightforward 10:22, 103:15,
18:11, 51:17, 213:12, 220:8, 128:8 103:18
109:21, 109:24, 225:8, 300:1 strap 12:23 succeed 166:19
110:16, 110:23, stayed 133:13 Street 1:46, succeeded 13:15,
381
13:17 152:16, 196:6 292:20, 295:8 target 90:10,
success 130:14, Summers 311:22 sustaining 90:13, 90:20
130:15, 131:4, Supplement 4:10, 73:17, 160:6, Task 53:12,
131:8, 131:10, 5:4, 6:4, 55:15, 160:7, 160:10 53:17, 53:20,
166:2, 166:8, 314:2, 327:23 Swan 312:1 54:13, 56:20,
166:15, 257:10, supplemental swirling 51:9, 56:24, 78:10,
257:19, 257:20, 5:9, 5:12, 52:6 81:17, 81:21,
257:25, 258:2, 313:17, 318:12, swore 297:23 82:1, 82:3,
267:4, 267:25, 325:7, 335:23 Sworn 20:9, 82:10, 101:19,
268:4, 268:24, supported 20:10, 109:10, 101:20, 101:22,
271:17, 271:21, 158:23, 250:24 109:13, 109:15 102:4, 102:8,
279:12, 279:14, supporters 190:4 system 11:25, 102:9
279:19 supporting 158:1, 296:18, taxes 74:19
successful 13:2, 158:15, 158:24, 296:23, 300:16 taxpayer 12:8
130:16, 166:1, 167:25, 174:21, Taylor 111:6
166:3, 166:24, 250:21 TDHCA 217:19
239:14 supportive <T> teach 196:24,
successfully 148:6, 149:5, table 63:9, 196:25
189:5 161:15, 162:6, 113:10, 199:21 team 105:22,
sudden 28:22, 163:25, 167:23, talked 22:2, 117:12, 117:24,
29:14, 144:20, 167:24, 173:21, 45:23, 46:1, 118:4, 258:11,
178:23, 282:3, 183:10, 250:5 47:4, 47:17, 323:19, 323:20
282:4 supposed 11:10, 62:22, 65:11, teamed 323:18
SUE 2:30, 6:7, 137:24, 150:6, 78:10, 94:6, tearing 233:3,
340:5, 340:13, 269:4, 269:6, 111:14, 112:16, 234:9
340:15 298:13 126:8, 126:14, tech 157:10
sued 35:12, supposedly 149:11, 191:22, technical 35:24
35:15 285:10 193:22, 193:23, Ted 2:13, 3:19,
sues 35:24 Supreme 13:20 195:10, 203:11, 248:21, 256:2
sufficient Suprina 303:20 206:25, 218:14, teeing 300:19
102:21, 103:9 surprise 67:13 220:17, 228:12, teeth 59:24
suggest 12:23, surprised 260:20, 286:23, telephone
13:11, 232:22, 122:21, 253:14 288:9, 298:1, 242:10, 242:12
232:25 Susan 320:20 298:3 tells 33:1,
suggested 271:8, sustain 68:23 talks 66:19, 96:12, 133:15
271:12, 272:8, Sustained 36:5, 102:7, 233:16, Ten 157:8,
275:8, 298:10 44:21, 55:2, 246:20 230:10, 230:17,
suggestions 58:2, 67:16, tall 132:23 246:17, 300:9
233:6 69:1, 99:11, Tammy 307:2, ten. 207:21,
suggestive 100:10, 103:1, 307:8 207:22
150:16, 154:18 103:13, 127:15, tape 27:21, tenants 254:4
Suhm 311:18, 135:8, 135:25, 29:25, 30:2, term 35:9,
323:8 148:18, 149:22, 59:13, 96:19, 35:24, 36:13,
Suite 1:39, 150:9, 154:23, 97:11, 97:22, 36:24, 45:15,
1:47, 2:24 160:3, 165:17, 294:17, 295:4, 46:25, 47:7,
Sulahke 311:24 183:22, 186:1, 295:21, 296:21, 50:12, 52:20,
Sullivan 311:20 193:1, 203:23, 300:10 72:6
summarizes 102:9 226:20, 242:25, tapes 96:17, termed 260:21
Summer 44:1, 243:6, 246:24, 300:8, 300:13, terminate 51:2,
138:18, 138:24, 262:19, 286:4, 300:14 147:7
382
terminated 51:4, 286:12 137:17, 137:18, 143:13, 167:4,
147:2 Tettamant 312:3 137:21, 138:6, 168:11, 173:8,
terms 69:11, Texas 1:2, 1:8, 138:10, 138:11, 197:19, 214:12,
141:24, 216:13, 1:30, 1:32, 138:12, 144:8, 214:25, 232:12,
293:1 2:16, 2:32, 177:7, 238:9, 237:23, 264:13
terrain 164:7, 78:3, 143:24, 246:10, 269:25, topic 82:22
170:20 182:5, 216:18, 325:2 topics 77:23
Terrell 316:4, 276:10, 313:12, throughout 12:7, total 56:15,
334:10 340:17 68:5, 164:17, 270:2
test 112:13 thanks 12:15 172:8, 172:16, totally 169:11
testified 16:4, themselves 22:25 173:1 Touche 220:23,
18:21, 20:10, Theodore 2:12, throwing 222:17 244:4
56:16, 97:1, 332:12 tightened 59:18, toward 112:9,
97:4, 109:15, thereof 203:6 60:5 156:3, 162:20
221:1, 253:12, Theresa 310:4 tightening 59:14 towards 225:23
258:10, 264:3, Thigpen 327:1 Tim 308:17 town 162:14
266:10, 270:14, thinking 226:10, timing 115:16, townhome 169:15,
275:20, 288:2, 231:7 124:2, 142:10, 169:20, 222:22,
297:3, 301:18, thinks 17:18 182:12 222:24, 223:3,
302:1, 303:5, Third 1:31, Tina 312:11 223:12
304:1, 304:5, 5:25, 6:2, today 4:16, townhome-style
304:18, 306:12, 167:4, 168:11, 10:23, 34:2, 169:13
306:13, 306:24, 244:5 34:25, 105:25, townhome-type
308:10, 309:16, Thirty 230:21 112:21, 118:14, 223:2
310:10, 310:15, Thomas 332:6 191:22, 211:3, Townhomes 153:9,
311:10, 312:17, Thompson 312:5 211:5, 211:9, 154:3, 155:5,
312:23, 313:6, Thornton 334:12 228:8, 250:11, 155:18, 155:25,
316:12, 316:24 Thornton-reese 250:14, 250:15, 156:1, 157:18,
testify 88:2, 65:16, 66:6, 255:1, 257:7, 158:10, 158:17,
105:25, 263:21, 76:14, 83:17, 263:18, 302:17, 159:12, 162:10,
314:8, 323:24, 83:25, 148:3, 302:20, 336:19 163:19, 164:18,
329:15 310:18, 317:2, Todd 315:5 169:15, 173:24,
testifying 323:4 together 45:8, 174:24, 177:3,
135:22, 248:25, Thorntree 31:22, 47:20, 53:17, 177:18, 192:1,
263:18, 279:25, 131:16, 131:18, 67:3, 117:20, 213:4, 214:23,
313:10, 314:6, 132:16, 138:23, 145:24, 183:7, 215:20, 221:21,
316:6, 316:20, 141:18 191:8 223:4, 223:7,
322:3 though 22:21, toll 95:13, 223:8, 238:2
testimonial 23:24, 29:18, 95:14 traditional
262:9 99:24, 158:17, Tom 304:25, 222:21
testimony 14:16, 246:5, 250:23, 306:3 traffic 11:7
14:18, 15:8, 268:13, 288:1 took 43:24, training 298:12
15:14, 16:1, thoughts 52:22 51:20, 71:22, TRANSCRIPT 1:19,
18:13, 18:18, thousand 190:6, 76:14, 152:25, 2:37, 340:6,
18:19, 50:19, 269:17 153:1, 184:5, 340:8
57:16, 106:3, thousands 70:10, 184:16, 206:20, travel 11:9
107:1, 107:10, 90:19, 229:18 207:21, 294:9 traveled 110:25
107:12, 159:25, Three 5:15, top 12:10, 13:6, Traylor 320:12,
183:21, 184:14, 76:19, 101:14, 39:8, 120:17, 323:10
259:15, 271:7, 110:9, 114:10, 121:11, 141:5, treasurer 70:22,
383
71:3 65:24, 76:6, umbrella 36:8 Until 4:21,
TRIAL 1:19, 3:5, 85:24, 102:4, Umphres 312:7 17:5, 31:25,
12:1, 12:7, 134:1, 146:4, unanswered 63:13, 110:9,
14:16, 15:5, 172:19, 196:25, 194:20 117:15, 132:18,
16:8, 16:13, 214:18, 220:18, unaware 44:6 154:12, 157:8,
16:16, 17:17, 238:25, 242:19, uncommon 200:1 174:19, 175:13,
20:4, 135:22, 271:24, 286:7, understand 19:6, 192:18, 228:8,
231:2, 263:18, 295:3, 295:16, 29:6, 35:15, 230:11, 263:11,
301:7, 322:3, 298:16, 300:2, 36:24, 52:14, 300:3
323:19 318:6, 326:19 94:25, 100:16, unusual 60:21,
Tried 145:24, Tucker 334:14 108:22, 194:19, 60:24, 61:3,
165:4, 178:5, turn 6:16, 96:1, 204:21, 207:7, 155:20, 193:17,
298:10 158:6, 172:20, 250:1, 263:3, 265:24, 266:7
trip 117:15, 195:16 266:25, 276:18, upcoming 176:14
117:23 turned 188:1, 284:18, 287:25 Update 168:20
trips 111:1, 188:2, 188:4, understanding updated 165:5,
117:25, 118:6 198:9 3:8, 29:15, 218:17
trouble 142:1, turns 35:23, 29:18, 35:18, updates 132:20,
153:16, 156:25, 162:19 94:24, 260:23 173:1
160:19, 300:18 Turtle 1:38 understands updating 132:21,
Troy 328:8 twice 49:4 205:4 133:1
True 18:25, two-week 31:24, understood 216:6 Upgrade 317:6
68:5, 89:25, 228:19 undertaken upset 260:13,
91:15, 100:6, two-year 51:14, 256:11 294:1, 294:4,
137:6, 139:5, 226:11 unethical 38:20, 294:7
140:14, 205:7, TX 1:40, 1:48, 38:24 upstairs 301:4
208:11, 211:4, 2:7, 2:25 unfair 29:13 upward 166:17
211:16, 211:17, type 27:19, unindicted upwards 164:8,
226:15, 226:23, 44:8, 57:6, 137:1, 204:10, 170:2
229:11, 232:8, 61:21, 106:19, 205:11 Urby 334:16
236:16, 237:8, 106:21, 117:17, unique 169:3, urging 148:17
248:8, 248:10, 118:4, 119:6, 169:14, 169:21 uses 233:12
276:24, 304:3 126:22, 131:24, unit 223:7 using 241:18
trump 18:3 168:7 United 1:1, 1:5, UT 130:3
trust 48:10, types 122:8, 1:21, 1:29, utilities
48:14, 48:16, 197:12, 261:18 118:1, 150:20, 170:10, 268:15,
283:8, 283:13, typically 61:11, 151:4, 276:10, 268:20
293:21 72:4, 132:15 340:10
trusted 283:7, typo 63:18 unknown 107:22
284:9, 284:16, unless 6:10, <V>
284:25, 291:14 6:12, 17:4, vacancy 113:20,
trustee 13:15, <U> 20:3, 88:3, 114:16, 115:7
13:16 Uhl 323:12 185:24 vacant 297:5
truth 106:4, ultimate 177:2, unlike 16:10 Vaguely 239:8
136:18, 136:19, 259:25, 260:14, unnecessary valuable 12:25
139:10, 263:20, 260:17 325:23 varies 127:23
263:24, 274:11, Ultimately unoffered 3:10 Various 110:21,
274:13 129:4, 147:6, unpaid 199:8, 112:17, 117:21,
Try 14:24, 178:6, 240:18, 199:25, 200:5 176:10, 176:22,
16:15, 50:2, 249:12 unrelated 149:15 208:10, 234:2,
384
255:15 virtually 57:5 13:12, 13:17, 300:1, 325:24,
Venita 302:10, visit 161:20 13:19, 14:6, 337:1
316:15 visited 105:18, 14:10, 16:9 weeks 27:7,
verbal 108:12, 107:5 waived 12:20, 31:17, 32:1,
202:16 visiting 161:25, 12:22, 13:5, 33:6, 71:1,
verbally 202:7 162:2 323:21, 323:25 147:9, 147:13,
Vern 334:8 visits 10:16 waiver 15:13 149:6, 154:13,
Verna 303:8 Vital 2:3, 15:4, waives 14:11 170:24, 171:12,
version 263:25 77:9, 77:17, Wal-mart 112:5 174:24, 178:6,
VERSUS 1:8, 88:18, 198:20, Walker 334:18, 206:8
66:15, 216:18 205:1, 231:17, 334:20 weigh 18:1
Vestal 312:9 320:19, 338:9, walking-around welcome 121:17
Vice 110:23, 338:18 72:6 Wells 335:3
110:24 Vivian 306:21 wall 113:11, welshed 267:25
VICTOR 2:3 vivid 304:4 115:25 West 126:20,
victor.vital@bak voce 46:16, Wallace 324:8 154:1, 188:25,
erbotts.com 2:9 195:1 Walter 330:12, 189:4, 215:21,
Victory 111:25, voice 114:9, 334:2 240:18, 241:5,
249:3 145:14, 273:13 Walters 312:13 241:25, 242:5,
video 51:9, 67:2 volume 96:1, wanting 197:15, 267:10, 320:14
videotape 52:6, 156:19, 160:19 197:23, 221:12 Westmoreland
52:7 Volume 21 1:18, wants 12:21, 252:10
videotaping 3:2 133:15, 174:13, Whatever 29:17,
283:2 voluntarily 178:25 31:2, 34:9,
View 16:15, 282:9, 291:7 warehouse 96:6 47:13, 69:10,
91:1, 91:7, voluntary 52:15 warning 108:3 106:21, 296:22
162:21, 234:5 voted 23:12, warnings 107:10, Wheatland
vigilant 15:19 68:6, 74:9, 107:17, 109:1 124:16, 124:20,
Village 154:1, 75:12, 98:10, warranted 50:22 131:18, 252:16
178:15, 178:16, 99:4, 99:5, warrants 51:8 whenever 71:2
188:25, 189:4, 237:13, 247:9 Warren 319:21 whispered 99:9,
215:13, 215:21, Votes 68:2, Washington 99:20
223:1, 240:18, 68:3, 73:19, 118:23, 312:15, White 117:20,
241:5, 241:25, 152:24, 165:11, 334:22, 334:24 118:2, 335:11
242:5, 267:10, 165:21, 165:24, waste 12:25, Whitmore 335:5,
270:20, 271:3, 171:10, 191:24, 296:19 335:13
272:19 194:18 watched 145:10 whole 14:13,
Villas 154:1, voting 60:3, Watkins 312:17 18:15, 19:21,
163:12, 216:2, 67:21, 161:18 Watson 115:8 23:22, 24:4,
234:25, 235:3, Watts 335:1 39:2, 39:3,
235:5, 235:7, ways 47:9, 97:14, 195:5,
235:20, 236:2, <W> 47:12, 297:9 224:1
236:14, 236:22, W. 1:11, 1:36 weak 13:25 whom 130:23,
243:15, 243:17, Wait 85:11, wealthy 229:25, 134:15, 143:4,
243:20, 245:9, 88:1, 217:6, 230:6, 237:10 155:7, 219:23
246:3, 247:10, 227:1, 242:21, Wednesday 220:13 wife 69:23,
247:17, 248:14 268:14 week 32:8, 113:7, 246:7,
violate 100:13 waiting 115:19, 101:15, 300:2 246:11, 247:7,
violation 83:3, 115:22, 296:16 weekend 9:24, 298:5
84:5 waive 12:19, 10:19, 176:17, Wilkinson 312:18
385
William 304:14, witnesses 244:2, write 19:20, 61:22, 62:22,
328:22, 330:14 301:7, 301:8, 92:13, 188:24, 63:21, 66:14,
Williams 9:8, 301:16, 301:24, 251:1 67:8, 68:8,
53:17, 54:9, 302:15, 313:9, writing 14:19, 69:6, 69:13,
54:15, 56:16, 324:21, 324:23, 20:2, 71:5, 69:18, 69:20,
80:14, 81:6, 325:1, 325:7 107:2, 107:3, 72:13, 97:8
81:10, 88:16, woefully 223:23 144:2, 202:12 Yigezu 312:24
159:19, 160:13, women 28:15 written 18:20, young 42:25,
230:12, 264:20, women-owned 69:12, 70:15, 299:16
312:11, 312:20, 172:14 70:25, 123:9, Younger 43:3,
312:22, 316:12, wonder 108:7 180:6 43:9
327:5, 327:15, wondering 301:4 wrote 69:11 Yourself 20:2,
335:9, 335:15, word 35:14, 44:15, 48:5,
339:14 93:14, 160:9, 52:7, 65:1,
Willie 121:1, 233:12, 254:7 <Y> 77:24, 78:5,
251:7 words 90:3, Y'all 59:6, 272:9, 281:6,
Wilson 15:9, 90:5, 92:20, 93:14, 145:24, 283:22
16:1, 18:13, 96:24, 101:10, 189:3, 231:7, youth 118:15
18:21, 312:22, 144:23 239:3, 239:9, Yvonne 127:6,
335:17 worked 45:8, 240:14, 243:24, 321:10, 330:6
Wine 13:9 110:21, 113:4, 260:10, 337:1
Winecroft 14:5 113:6, 121:1, Yates 335:19
wiretap 96:18 130:21, 152:9, year 40:8, <Z>
wiretaps 313:21 156:3, 175:15, 43:21, 66:7, Zac 310:15
Wisdom 161:7, 183:11, 185:20, 110:4, 118:18, Zavitkovsky
162:19, 163:2, 249:3, 250:16, 125:23, 125:24, 313:1, 313:3
163:18, 185:19 253:16, 255:15, 151:23, 192:10 zoned 128:16
withdraw 43:7, 268:16, 268:19, years 49:3, Zoning 43:13,
44:22, 79:16, 280:12 49:22, 49:23, 43:15, 60:18,
225:10, 247:17 working 47:20, 49:24, 51:24, 60:20, 60:24,
Within 101:14, 80:16, 98:14, 52:25, 107:8, 61:1, 61:4,
161:10, 161:11, 121:5, 125:14, 109:22, 110:5, 61:5, 61:6,
163:22, 171:12, 125:18, 129:25, 110:9, 110:22, 109:23, 111:15,
181:15, 210:6, 132:8, 152:23, 111:19, 112:5, 117:2, 128:2,
210:8, 210:13, 153:12, 175:18, 113:22, 116:5, 128:3, 128:5,
212:24, 213:5, 178:14, 179:25, 194:4, 227:2, 166:4, 249:1,
214:21, 268:24, 252:14, 255:2, 246:10, 250:1, 249:21, 254:1,
314:7 266:11, 269:25, 273:1, 278:11, 256:11, 297:24
Without 4:7, 275:15, 282:21, 280:14, 280:15
4:20, 11:25, 285:21, 285:23, yeses 305:11,
25:11, 148:1, 286:2, 296:23 326:3
159:7, 183:14, works 48:2, Yesterday 3:9,
184:9, 184:24, 182:3 11:13, 18:12,
185:17, 188:17, world 111:2, 27:18, 30:1,
189:21, 193:4, 246:18 30:2, 30:7,
202:23, 203:14, worried 177:23 33:24, 34:2,
225:18, 225:22, worry 202:7, 50:8, 50:19,
226:4, 226:11, 202:24 53:11, 53:19,
227:1, 228:7, worse 51:13 57:8, 57:11,
294:11 Wright 320:2 59:12, 60:8,

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Case 3:07-cr-00289-M Document 1489 Filed 08/19/10 Page 1 of 385 PageID 19023

08:25:16 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 3:07-CR-289-M

13 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: MARCUS BUSCH

18 FOR THE DEFENDANT:

P. SUE ENGLEDOW CSR/RPR

2 SHEILA D. FARRINGTON (3) VICTOR D. VITAL

19 proceedings reported by mechanical stenography, transcript

P. SUE ENGLEDOW CSR/RPR

5 THE COURT: On the exhibit issue.

6 MR. STEINKE: My latest understanding is from an

7 e-mail from Marcus yesterday -- or last night that the

8 government intended to offer all of the other unoffered

9 exhibits into evidence. And I have looked at those and from

10 my perspective I have no objection to that other than to 1596,

12 THE COURT: Well, if you have an objection we're

14 Other than that, do you have an objection?

15 MR. STEINKE: Other than --

16 MR. VITAL: May I?

17 We are with Ted. No objection for Sheila Hill other than

19 THE COURT: I'll pull that one.

20 MS. DECKARD: 1596 is our objection.

21 MR. JACKSON: No objection from Mr. Hill, your

23 THE COURT: Mr. Greene. Calling Mr. Greene.

24 Mr. Reagan, you don't mind if everybody else -- oh, I'm

25 sorry -- it's Mr. Lee.

P. SUE ENGLEDOW CSR/RPR

08:26:34 1 Mr. Lee is not here either, so I can't get his

3 All right. 1596, we'll just exclude, and the government

4 has given me a list that has all of the exhibits noted.

5 All right. I'm going to read these into the record

6 subject to hearing from Mr. Greene that the following exhibits

7 will be admitted without objection.

8 MR. STEINKE: Could you do it slow enough?

9 THE COURT: Well, what I'm going to do is go through

10 these starting with the Fourth Supplement.

11 MR. STEINKE: Okay.

12 THE COURT: Is that the order I have them in?

13 If I don't call them, that means they have already been

08:27:25 15 (Mr. Greene enters courtroom.)

16 THE COURT: 8:15 today.

17 All right. Mr. Greene, everyone else on behalf of their

18 counsel -- of their client has agreed that the government --

19 the balance of the government's exhibits will all be admitted

20 without objection except for Exhibit 1596, which I will

21 reserve until it's offered.

22 Do you object to that?

23 MR. GREENE: I'll defer to my counsel, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Well, you have to make a -- are you on

25 behalf of Mr. Lee agreeing to that?

P. SUE ENGLEDOW CSR/RPR

08:28:02 1 MR. GREENE: Yes, your Honor, I am.

2 THE COURT: All right. Are you with me now?

3 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am. You're on the Fifth

5 THE COURT: The last one I have is the Fourth. Do

6 you have a Fifth?

7 MR. STEINKE: Yes, ma'am.

8 THE COURT: I don't have it yet.

9 Is there a fifth supplemental exhibit list, Mr. Busch?

10 MR. BUSCH: I'm sorry?

11 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Steinke has a fifth

12 supplemental exhibit list, and I only have the fourth.

13 MR. BUSCH: Yes, your Honor. May I approach?