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UNITED STATES TAX COURT - TRIAL

ESTATE (OF MICHAEL J. JACKSON DECEASED)


EXECUTORS: JOHN G. BRANCA. AND JOHN MCCLAIN

COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE (IRS)

February 8th 2017

Presiding Judge Mark V. Holmes

Jacksons estate is represented by Avram Salkin, Charles Paul Rettig, Steven Richard Toscher, R
obert S. Horwitz, Edward M. Robbins Jr., Sharyn M. Fisk and Lacey E. Strachan of Hochman Sa
lkin Rettig Toscher & Perez PC, Paul Gordon Hoffman, Jeryll S. Cohen and Loretta Siciliano of
Hoffman Sabban & Watenmaker and Howard L. Weitzman of Kinsella Weitzman Iser Kump &
Aldisert LLP.
The
IRS is represented by its attorneys Donna F. Herbert, Malone Camp, Sebastian Voth, Jordan Mus
en and Laura Mullin.
--------------------------------------------

MATTHEW FORGER
Previously Engineer Westlake studios
http://www.studioexpresso.com/profiles/mattforger.htm
Court Clerk: MATHEW FORGER sworn in.

Court Clerk: And if you will you please state your name and address for the record? MR.
FORGER: Yes, my name is Matthew Forger F... O... R... G... E... R.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead Mr. Weltzman.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Mr. Forger, what is your current occupation?

A. My current occupation is a full-time caregiver for my disabled daughter.

Q. All right. And prior to that were you ... well, what did you do?

A. Prior to that I have ... my career has been as a recording engineer.

Q. And when did you begin in the business as a recording engineer?

A. I began professionally shortly after I moved to Los Angeles in 1979.

Q. And at some ... well, when you first moved to Los Angeles, what is it you did in the
recording business?

A. I worked at a recording studio and my very first job was that of a technician.

Q. And what recording studio did you work at?

A. That was Westlake Studios.

Q. Where is Westlake Studios located?

A. The facility that I worked at was at 8447 Beverly Boulevard.

Q. In West Hollywood?

A. Well, I believe it's considered Los Angeles, but it's on the borderline with Beverly Hills.

Q. Okay. And tell us what your job consisted of at that point. That is, when you started.
A. Well, when I started I was a ... I started as a job as a technician so that I could familiarize
myself with the studio environment and the studio equipment. Previously, I had worked in live
sound reinforcement which incorporates all the same equipment, but the application of it is
different. And because I aspired to be a recording engineer, I needed the understanding of all of
the technical aspects.

Q. So when you talk about live sound, you're talking about helping bands or artists in live
performances.

A. That's correct.

Q. Was that before you came to Los Angeles?

A. That's correct.

Q. And what were your responsibilities there? I should have asked you that ... what you did?
What were your responsibilities when you were working in the live sound area?

A. Well, I was the person who typically isn't noticed that's in the back corner of the room with
the equipment. And what I do is I balance the instruments that the performers onstage are
performing, and I control the level of the sound and make the sound pleasing in the room or the
venue where the band is performing.

Q. In other words, you help the sound be available or accessible to the total audience in the
venue rather than limited pieces or portions.

A. Correct and make the quality of the sound rich and full and clear.

Q. So did you come to Los Angeles to get into the music business as an engineer?

A. Yes. I specifically moved because I wanted to work in recording studios and make records.

Q. Okay. So you began at Westlake Studios. Take us through a ... kind of a brief summary of the
first year or two you were there.

A. The first ... at a ... at the point in which I entered my employment at Westlake Studios, I was
pretty much trained as to how all of the equipment in a recording situation works because I was
familiar with the signal flow of how electronically the equipment works, but in recording
situation it's different than a live situation. And the way the equipment is integrated together, the
nature of the ... I want to say how the workflow goes in the recording environment, this is what I
strove to learn and understand.

Q. And what was the first ... who was the first ... did you work for a producer at some point
early on?
A. Yes. Shortly after I was working at the studio I was promoted to the level of being staff
engineer. And what ...

Q. What does that mean?

A. Well, I at that point, was working ... instead of working in the shop and maintaining the
equipment and setting up the sessions, preparing then technically for the clients that arrived to
record, I actually was working in the actual recording sessions helping assist the process for the
engineer and the producer to make their recordings.

Q. And were you in the booth, so to speak?

A. Yes.

Q. And the booth had equipment, even back then, like a concert, correct?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. So do you remember the ... were there different consoles or one particular console ...

A. Well ...

Q. ... that Westlake used?

A. At that time they used a console that was made by the company Harrison. In a couple of their
rooms they had several ... a couple of facilities, and there was another console in another facility
by another brand called API. But all of these different brands of equipment function the same
way. They're just made by different companies, different brand names.

Q. So before we get into particular artists or producers you worked with, could you just kind of
explain to us what the purpose of those consoles were in a general form? What did the engineers
do on them ...

A. Well ...

Q. ... on the recording of the albums ... or records rather?

A. The console itself was connected to a recording machine called a multi-track recording
machine. And the signal would come in from the studio room where the musicians performed. It
would flow through the console. It would be affected in some way by different controls and
different pieces of equipment, and then it would be recorded onto the multi-track tape machine.
And the process would be generally one of first tracking. A complete band may come in to
perform, and that would be the foundation or the musical bed. And then that would be sweetened
or augmented in what's called overdubbing where different musical elements would be added
including vocals and strings, horns, whatever the ... sweetening or the additional elements to lift
the arrangement of the song.
Q. So in other words, musicians or a singer would go into the studio, which was adjacent to the
booth, correct, the sound room?

A. That's correct.

Q. And then they would perform either the instrumental part of whatever their responsibilities
were or they would sing the vocals into a microphone and get picked up on the tape. Is that what
would happen?

A. That's correct. It was picked up on microphones and the signal from the microphone would
flow through the recording console then to the tape machine where it was recorded at which
point it was recorded on tape. Then the tape could be played back, and then it would, again, be
routed through this console where the elements of the band, the individual instruments could be
balanced.

Q. And the engineer's function was to do what?

A. To capture a clean, full-sounding recording, and then after the recording is captured, then to
play it back. A It would then be ... the recording would be played back from the tape recording
machine, the multi-track tape machine. And then the console is able to have many channels
which would be dedicated to all the different individual instruments in the band that would be
performed and then to create a pleasing balance of all the elements.

Q. So could you control the sound, for example, between the horns or if it's trumpet, trombone,
saxophone, and the drum, and the strings on these consoles so that they were coordinated to get
the particular sound?

A. Yes, because you want these different elements to have a different proportion so that their
blend is pleasing. The performance is done and it's recorded in such a fashion that the ... you
want to optimize the level that is being recorded for the best sound quality in terms of the tape
machine's function. But you want to balance these elements in what would be called the mix, or
bringing the tape elements back, the musical elements back because the ear wants to hear these
things in the proportion of - - if it was a band, in the context of a live performance.

Q. And would the artist ... I gather whoever the lead artist was, would they ever come into the
booth during these recording sessions?

A. They ... if they were performing they might come into the booth, yes.

Q. Who ran the sessions? That is who controlled what was done and how it was done in these
recording sessions?

A. That was the producer's job. That was his duty.

Q. Did you meet Michael Jackson through your employment at Westlake Studio?
A. Yes, I did.

Q. And how did that come about?

A. I was working with the production team of Quincy Jones, a producer, Bruce Swedien
recording engineer, and Rod Temperton songwriter-arranger. There were a half a dozen projects
that I worked on as a staff engineer that Quincy produced. One of them was the Thriller album,
so I met him on the Thriller project.

Q. And Quincy and his team came from another recording studio to Westlake during the time
you were there, correct ... at Westlake?

A. That's correct.

Q. They came from Kendon is that right?

A. Yes they were working at a facility Kendon recorders, and for whatever reason they liked the
vibe, they loved the technical proficiency of Westlake Studios so they decided to move there.

Q. All right. So was the Thriller album in process when they moved from Kendon to Westlake?

A. No, it wasn't. It was initiated ... it was to be done while Quincy was doing these series of
album projects.

Q. What ... I think George Benson was one of the projects, right?

A. George Benson was a project that Quincy had done previously.

Q. All right.

A. The projects that I worked on that Quincy produced were the Lena Horne Broadway Show
album, an album by a musician Ernie Watts. We did a Donna Summer album, and we also did a
James Ingram album.

Q. So tell us about how the ... how your experience with Thriller started and when you met
Michael Jackson.

A. There was a day in my life ...

Q. I see you smiling.

A. There was a day in my life that I will never forget.

Q. Okay.
A. And I showed up at the studio for what we call a tracking day. A tracking day had the ... all
the musicians of the band in a studio room and ...

Q. Well, what does that mean, tracking day, so that we understand what you're talking about?

A. A tracking day is where the musical bed sometimes called the music track is recorded. This
would be the rhythm section, the drums, the base, the piano, the guitar. That ... those musical
elements that are the foundation for the song.

Q. And before you have a tracking date there is music that's been decided upon or written. Is that
right?

A. Oh yes. There's a lot of preparation work before you come in to do tracking day.

Q. Vocal as well as music, to the best of your knowledge?

A. Yes, because what you're trying to capture is you're trying to capture the essence of what is
this song, make a recording. So the arrangement would be worked out. All the musicians, in this
case had charts that they followed and this is ... it's then fine-tuned when you actually do the
recording. There's adjustments to be made, but there's a great deal of pre-production that it's
called before you actually enter the studio, so that you can work efficiently and not waste time.
In a recording studio, time is money.

Q. So tell us what happened.

A. Well, I was at the studio. I walked in to prepare for a tracking day. And the musicians were the
best studio musicians in Los Angeles. They were the members of the band Toto. And we set up,
and we began recording. And at ... on a playback what would happen is you would do a tape.
The musicians would perform the composition. It would be recorded. And then when something
sounded good the producer would say, okay everybody come in and listen to that and let's
evaluate it. So at one point while I was in the control room, I viewed the other people who were
in the control room, and there was Quincy Jones, Michael Jackson. On the far side of the room
was Paul McCartney. There was the musicians from Toto. Bruce Swedien was at the recording
console. Behind Bruce Swedien was George Martin the producer of The Beatles ...

Q. The Beatles. Yeah.

A. ... and Jeff Emrick the recording engineer who recorded most of the Beatles albums. And it
was at that moment that I realized I was at the place ... excuse me. I realized I was at that place
that was the answer to all my prayers and dreams because from the time I was very young, about
10, 11, 12 years old I would listen to music on the radio, and I would realize ... you listen to four
or five songs and they were kind of okay. But then that special song would come on. It would
jump out of the speaker at me, and it would just make you feel a certain way. And I was
conditioned by my father to always figure things out. Whenever I would have a question for my
dad, because he was a jack of all trades. He could do anything, electrical, mechanical,
construction, build anything, make anything, airplanes, houses. Whenever I had a problem and I
asked him a question, he would always say to me figure it out. So for my entire life I was
conditioned to figure things out, and I always wanted to figure out what is this magic quality that
music contains that has this thing that affects you. It affects you in a way that is voodoo, or it's
that thing that's very difficult to put in words.

Q. So do you remember what the first song was that you worked on on that album?

A. That was The Girl is Mine.

Q. So tell us what took place. That is, how did the album get completed? How much time did it
take? What was the process?

A. The album as a whole took a ... we started the ... that day was April 14th, 1982. We recorded
for a week, just working on that song. And then there was a hiatus. And in the beginning of July
we began recording the rest of the Thriller album because songs had to be evaluated to select the
very best ones to proceed with. And over the course of the next several months, from ... excuse
me, from July to approximately the October/November window the selection of the songs, there
were some songs that were brought in because all of the songs hadn't been selected. And unlike
that very first day where there was a live band performing the song in its totality, the rest of the
songs on the album were recorded much more in a layered sense, meaning there would be a
single musician performing. There might be a drummer, or a base player, a guitar player, a horn
section. And when you record things individually these different musical elements, you have
greater control over all of the individual elements. When you record a band as a group at one
time, then you get the interplay of the musicians. So there's a slightly different feel between
songs that are layered and songs that are performed by a band in one take.

Q. When a song is layered, don't the engineers in effect get to help create the synergy of the
instruments?

A. Oh absolutely. Absolutely.

Q. So that the producer has some input in the sound as well as, I'm assuming, the artist such as
Michael Jackson.

A. Yes.

Q. And after that album did you continue to work with Quincy and for Michael Jackson as well?

A. Yes. There were ... there was one more album. After we completed Thriller we then did the
James Ingram album, which Quincy produced. And I was called out by Michael to engineer for
him when he began writing songs. He would need a recording engineer to go in the studio for
compositions that he was writing. And generally there would be three individuals. There would
be myself, there would be a person who would be a musician programmer, and then there would
be Michael. And Michael would come in and talk to the person who was the musician
programmer about structurally what we were going to create, and then the parts were created
individually again in a layered sense. And then they were recorded and then the process would
begin.

Q. So Michael didn't write sheet music did he?

A. No, he didn't.

Q. So how did Michael translate to the musician, whether it be instrument or synthesizer later
whatever digital instrumentals ... instruments were used ... how did Michael translate what he
wanted to compose?

A. Usually he would sing the parts. Michael had an uncanny ability to beat box. Beat box is
when you sing a rhythm. You sing the drum pattern. Michael had a amazing voice. So he could
sing, as an example, I want the drums to go in this pattern. And then he would sing the pattern.
Then the programmer could program into at the time what we called a drum machine because it
had a memory element, and it also created the sounds of drums. And then the drum pattern could
be created from this machine. And then he would sing the other parts. He would sing the base
guitar. He would sing the synthesizer or the piano part, and this is how he could communicate the
ideas.

Q. Same for horns?

A. Same for horns.

Q. Basically the same for all or almost all of the instruments on a particular track ... or song?

A. He could. There were times when Michael would have a composition in his head that was
complete, and he knew all the nuances of all the musical elements so that he could describe to a
musician regardless of the instrument the musician should play how the parts should go because
he knew how it would fit with all the other elements that he had worked out in his mind.

Q. And then he would lay down or perform the vocals?

A. Yes. After there was a musical bed, then he would add a vocal track.

Q. So if there were beat box sounds captured on a tape or sound recording, Michael would
perform the vocals over those sounds.

A. Yes. He would sometimes create what would be called demos or demonstration recordings
himself using his mouth to create the sounds of the instruments. In that case, he could create the
idea or the vision of the different parts of the music the musicians would perform to create the
arrangement of the final product.

Q. So after Thriller, what Michael Jackson albums did you work on?
A. After Thriller the next project that I did actually was the (inaudible) movie for the Disney
theme park. And that was followed by the albums Bad, Dangerous, History, and Blood on the
Dance Floor, as well as the Ghosts short film.

Q. Those are all albums you worked on pre- death, correct ... pre Michael's death, before he
died.

A. Oh, yes.

Q. And did you also work with the Estate on albums after he passed away?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Which albums were those?

A. They would be ... Escape was the most recent.

Q. The Michael album refresh your memory?

A. I did some work on the Michael album. There was a period of time, as I mentioned, the last
studio album that I worked directly with Michael was the Blood on the Dance Floor album.

Q. What year was that?

A. That was, I believe, 1997. And after that point, I transitioned to working for the Legacy, Sony
Legacy music label.

Q. And what is the Sony Legacy music label?

A. The Legacy label is a label which does reissues of album projects.

Q. And so in that sense, what is it you did?

A. I would review material for consideration to be included on whatever projects were released
by Sony Legacy.

Q. Can you give us an idea of the type of artists' music you worked with?

A. Oh, I worked with Michael.

Q. Only Michael.

A. Only Michael for the Legacy album, yes.

Q. All right.
A. For the Legacy label.

Q. And so how did you go about looking ... actually, let me back up. What exactly was the
purpose of your job?

A. Well, because I worked on all these album projects, my memory is full of all of the details of
the production of most of the songs for ... between Thriller and Blood on the Dance Floor. So
when the Legacy label was looking to include a bonus track, a previously unreleased track, a
demo, or something of a nature to fill out the package, which is what the Legacy label did, then I
would be involved in the process to help evaluate what songs were ... would ... had potential to
be included.

Q. And so you ... did you basically go through a ... this is my word, there's a different term of
art, please substitute it for my word ... the archives of Michael Jackson recorded music to find
music that could be used ... recordings that could be used?

A. Yes, because for each reissue, if it was a reissue or a compilation album, there was always a
set of parameters that needed to be met for whatever the particular project was. For example, the
reissue of the Thriller album included things that either did not make it on the album or things
that were done in that same era so that there was a cohesive nature to them.

Q. The sound was similar.

A. Well, the sound was similar, but also to the time frame of the composition fits in with the
timeframe of the Thriller album, the Bad album, the Dangerous album.

Q. And what years are we talking about that you worked with Sony Legacy music in that
capacity?

A. That began about in the year ... I want to say about 2000. And I worked in that capacity up
until Michael's passing.

Q. And during the time that you worked in that capacity, all pre-death now ... pre-death ... did
you locate some songs that were completed, but not released?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember how many you located?

A. In a total region?

Q. Yes. 10, 12, 15? How many?

A. I would say in the vicinity of maybe 30 to 40.

Q. And how many of those have been released?


A. I believe most of them have been released.

Q. And when you say you believe most of them, were there any that you recall ... well, pardon.
Were there some that works released to the best of your recollection?

A. Well, the ones that were completed, fully completed ...

Q. Yes, sir.

A. ... had all been released. There are ... there were or are some that are fragmented in nature,
and they aren't complete songs. There were probably some additional ones in that nature, that
weren't viable commercial releases. So they were ...

Q. I'm sorry. Were or were not commercially viable?

A. They were not ... not commercially viable. So we found things that were very fragmented or
very partial in their ... the nature of a complete recording.

Q. Okay. When you say "fragmented" or "partial," are you referring to the elements ... there
were some elements, but not complete elements? What is it you mean?

A. Well, there might be tapes or recordings that have just the beginning kernel of an idea. It
might be a drum or a drum and a bass. Very often a drum and a bass would be referred to as a
groove. So there might be this groove which would be a foundation element for the recording.
And - but if that's all there was, then there wasn't anything indicating any development past that
point. There wasn't any melody. There wasn't any structure. So those were immediately
discounted and set aside. And by fragmented, it's possible that there were songs that had
elements of Michael maybe singing an idea, singing an idea in one section of a song. If
something was recorded by Michael in terms of a vocal, but it was just in a small section of the
661 song, then it wasn't a complete recording of his. So that would be very ... that would be
fragmented and that wouldn't be usable either.

Q. So the ... to the best of your recollection, the completed songs have all been released.

A. All of the ones that were in a state that could be released, to my knowledge, have been at this
point.

Q. And you used the description when we talk about how you describe what was left of the
songs that were not completed. Had something to do ... I don't remember. It may have had
something to do with souffl What was the description?

A. Well, one of the explanations are some of these recordings are very similar to a soufflthat's not
fully cooked because they - the realization of the song never got to such a point that you would
recognize it as a complete song.
Q. Okay. Now, after Michael passed away ... and you were still working with Sony Legacy
music, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. After Michael passed away, did you - I'm sorry. Just forget that question. I want to go back to
another thing. Did you ever work with converting analog to digital with respect to Michael
Jackson work?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I did that over a span of many years for whenever there was a requirement. When someone
knew that something existed in the archive in an analog format, but someone wanted to use it in
a more modern sense of, they wanted a digital file of it, then it would have to be converted. So at
different points in time, I did this process. I did it individually for items as well as at one point
there was an archival project, which was a ... I want to say several month-long process of
reviewing material and converting those things that were ... had the best potential to digital so
they could be accessed.

Q. So has most of Michael Jackson's archived material been digitized?

A. I don't know if most of it has. I know a great deal of it hasn't been because there is no ... there
are things that just have no potential, and the expense wasn't deemed to have any value.

Q. And you say it had no potential because you were familiar with it and that was a decision
either you or Sony made.

Mr. Musen: Objection. Leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. Who made the decision not to digitize?

The Witness: It was an evaluation that was done by the head archivist on the project.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Was John Doelp involved at all?

A. Not in the archival project.

Q. Okay.

A. The head archivist was Bob Pfeiffer.

Q. So this was in the 2000s.


A. This was ... yes. This was shortly after Michael's death.

Q. And after Michael died, did you continue to look for ... or did you look for additional
material that the Estate might be able to exploit?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you find any?

A. Yes.

Q. And to the best of your knowledge, were all the exploitable materials released?

A. The ones with commercial viability, yes.

Q. And when you say "commercial viability," what is it you mean?

A. Well, for something to be released by a major label, there ... it obviously has to ... it has to be
a ... provide a level of satisfaction for the listener that this is a good performance. It is
contemporary. It is ... it has a sound that's pleasing and is complete and full and again, fully
realized in that it is not something that feels hollow or not fully baked or fully completed.

Q. Okay. And was Mr. Doelp, John Doelp involved in the latter process post death?

A. Yes, he ... several times I worked with John Doelp and the estate to evaluate ... excuse me ...
to evaluate recordings for release.

Q. And Mr. Doelp is an executive with Sony music?

A. That's correct.

Q. And did you also work with Karen Langford who's worked for the Estate of Michael Jackson?

A. That's correct. Yes.

Q. Okay. The government ... the Internal Revenue Service, has an expert that has opined that
there are some 100 plus, completed, unreleased recordings of Michael Jackson's voice and
composition that would fill up 8 to 10 albums. Do you think such songs exist?

Mr. Musen: Objection. Assuming fact not in evidence. The report has not been admitted yet.
There is a misstatement of what the report says as well.

Judge Holmes: Overruled. It misstates it. Yeah, have them ... I could ...

Mr. Weitzman: Could I read the quote?


Judge Holmes: Yes.

Mr. Weitzman: You guys are tough. You guys are tough. That's why you guys get the big
dollars. What a great suggestion. Okay I have it.

Judge Holmes: Let's hear it.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Mr. Forger, I'm referring you to the second full paragraph on page 67 of Mr. Anson's report
regarding New Horizon Trust which deals with the MIJAC catalog. It reads as follows, "Based
on my analysis of the minimum and total number of Jackson unreleased songs, the Estate
controls the equivalent of 88.41 to 109.78 master recordings. When rounded, this corresponds to
a range of 8 to 10 postmortem albums." Do you believe those songs are ... exist? That is enough
songs to fill 10 albums that are complete, unreleased master recordings.

A. Well, the term master recording is used here. And there may be master recordings of
fragments or ideas but not as completed songs.

Q. I have nothing further.

Judge Holmes: Thank you Mr. Forger.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. Musen:
Q. Good afternoon Mr. Forger.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I want to learn the Universal songs that existed at the time Michael died. We have completed
songs, and some of these songs would be recorded for albums that Michael intended to be on an
album but never made it. Is that right?

A. Yes. That would ... just for clarity again, you mentioned at the time of his death?

Q. Right. We have a body of unreleased material or unreleased recordings.

A. Yes.

Q. And among that we have completed songs.

A. There are some completed songs.


Q. Okay. And those songs are completed because, at one time Michael intended ... some of these
completed songs were made because Michael intended those songs to be on a particular album,
but they just never made it to the final cut of that album.

A. They were not included because Michael didn't feel they were of the quality of the ones that
were included.

Q. Okay. And in between albums, Michael was working on other songs and they're a part of this
group ... the subset of unreleased recordings. Yes?

A. I agree.

Q. Okay. All right. So we have ... and at the time Michael died, some of this material had
already been released and some had not been released of the completed recordings.

A. That's true.

Q. Okay. And so how many after ... how many were remaining that haven't been released at the
time he died of this ... of these completed ...

Mr. Weitzman: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. Released, unreleased, completed, not
completed, it's vague.

Judge Holmes: You want to define your terms?

Mr. Musen:
Q. I would say ... okay. What is your understanding of a completed work, Mr. Forger?

A. What is my understanding of a ...

Q. Yeah.

A. ... completed work?

Q. Yeah.

A. A completed work is one that is ready for release.

Q. Okay. So a work that ... at the time Michael died, how many of these songs that were ready
for release had not been released?

Mr. Weitzman: The ... I'm sorry. Objection. Vague and ambiguous. These songs doesn't
describe what he's asking.

Mr. Musen: I'm talking about the subset that Mr. Forger just described.
Judge Holmes: Completed songs, we now know are those that are ready to be released. How
many unreleased completed songs were there, right?

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. But that isn't what he said. But that is what he meant.

Judge Holmes: Was that what you meant?

Mr. Musen: That's what I meant. Thank you, Your Honor, for clarifying.

Judge Holmes: How many completed, unreleased songs were there at the time of death?

A. From the era which I worked with Michael there may have been possibly a dozen or more,
something around 12 to 14, 16.

Mr. Musen:
Q. There were two albums that were released posthumously that had material such as this.

A. Yes.

Q. Escaped and Michael.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now in this universe of unreleased material, we have these fragments, these pieces that
we've been talking about. Among those fragments and pieces, we have compositions where there
are vocals.

A. Yes.

Q. Vocals ... there are compositions where there are vocals for a chorus.

A. That could be true, yes.

Q. Okay. The chorus is the most important part of a song. It's the part of the song that's repeated
and that contains ... generally contains the hooks, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Okay. There was technology at this time that would allow other vocals to be added to the ...
to these recordings.

A. Elements could be added to these recordings, yes.


Q. Right. Okay. So you're familiar for example with the 1995 song Free as a Bird that started out
as a demo by John Lennon, and then the remaining Beatles then added vocals and
instrumentation and the song was released sort of suggesting that this is a Beatles composition.

A. I'm familiar with that, yes.

Q. And you're familiar also with ... in 1991 that Natalie Cole sang a duet with her late father,
Nat King Cole, Unforgettable.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. In which they sort of exchanged lines and ... of the music, of the melody, one taking
one line, another taking another line.

A. Yes.

Q. That was ... and technology was able to do that back in 1991. And that song in fact received a
number of Grammies, Record of the Year, Album of the Year, Song of the Year.

Mr. Weitzman: Objection. Just on relevance. I really don't understand what the relevance is. Is
he ...

Judge Holmes: Overruled. I'll let him play it.

Mr. Musen:
Q. Is that a yes, Mr. Forger?

A. The ... am I familiar with the Natalie Cole recording?

Q. Right.

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And that it received some Grammies.

A. Oh yes, it did.

Q. Okay. With her father, Nat King Cole.

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Michael Jackson sang duets when he was alive.

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And he sang a duet with his ...


Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.

Mr. Musen:
Q. He sang a duet with his sister Janet Jackson, Scream.

A. Yes.

Q. He sang another song with Stevie Wonder, Just Good Friends.

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. I'm just going to object as leading and suggestive. If you want to ...

Mr. Musen: I'm sorry?

Mr. Weitzman: ... testify that's okay. It's leading and suggestive. Just ...

Mr. Musen: I'm doing cross though.

Judge Holmes: He gets to lead.

Mr. Weitzman: I understand.

Mr. Musen: You lead all the time.

Mr. Weitzman: I understand that as well.

Judge Holmes: Now, now. Lead away, sir.

Mr. Musen:
Q. Just so ... the Stevie Wonder song that he sang a duet with, you're familiar with that.

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Okay. And he also sang a duet, two duets at least with Paul McCartney, Say, Say, Say and
That Girl is Mine.

A. That's correct.

Q. Those two songs made it in the Top 10. They were big hits.

A. They were successful songs, yes.

Q. Okay. All right. Are you familiar with Michael ... a missing laptop by Michael Jackson, that
contained music on it?

A. I'm not familiar with that subject, no.


Q. You're not. Okay. Let's talk about these listening session that you had the estate after Michael
died. There were a number of ... there were a few session that you sat in with John Doelp

A. Yes.

Q. And you listened to 20 to 40 songs.

A. We may have listened to about 20.

Q. Per session.

A. Possibly, yes.

Q. And then about a quarter of those would then be accepted and then passed on to the next
level.

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry, Your Honor. Just this objection, I just want to make sure we're talking
about ... or the inference is these are completed unreleased songs and not pieces or fragments.
What I can tell from the ...

Judge Holmes: Do you care to clarify?

Mr. Musen:

Q. Of the material you listened to ...

A. Yes.

Q. ... a quarter of that material was then accepted to be passed on to the next level to see if that
would be considered to be put on an album. Is that correct?

Mr. Weitzman: I'm going to object as vague and ambiguous.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Musen:
A. Well, the songs that were passed along were ones that were completed. That were ... had all
of the elements that could be further mixed or whatever needed to be done to complete them for
release. In some cases there were a variety of songs that had ... were too incomplete or
fragmented that weren't viable.

Q. Okay. The allegations that were out there never stopped you from wanting to work for
Michael Jackson.

A. No.
Q. Okay. No further questions.

Judge Holmes: Redirect?

Mr. Weitzman: No. I have no further questions.

Judge Holmes: Actually I have no further questions. Can we release him?

Mr. Weitzman: Yes. Unless Your Honor has questions.

Judge Holmes: You're planning to call him as part of your case or anything?

Mr. Musen: We reserve the right.

Mr. Weitzman: No, no, no.

Ms Herbert: No.

Mr. Musen: No ...

Mr. Weitzman: It has to be done today.

Mr. Musen: Okay. Mr. Forger you're free to go.

Judge Holmes: You are free to go. Thank you very much. Good luck with your daughter.

The Witness: Thank you.

Judge Holmes: Get the next witness.

Ms. Cohen: Your Honor, could we have a 10- minute break?

Judge Holmes: Sure.

Ms. Cohen: Thank you.