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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Autom atic and Assault W e a p o n s
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1. Pribor-3B bullpup nordenfelt gun (6 replies)

2. Wimmersperg Spz-kr Bullpup Carbine (3 replies)
3. 35 Machine Gunners @ Night. Tracers (3 replies)
4. Does a Lighting Link work on AR variants... (13 replies)
5. Variable-rate Machine Gun (8 replies)
6. Belt fed 7.62x39 SMG (52 replies)
7. Semi auto Sten Mk III (29 replies)
8. Full auto 12 gauge shotgun - Archive File (52 replies)
9. Mini 14 goes Full AUTO! - Archive Thread (19 replies)
10. Sten gun in PMJB (91 replies)
11. AN-94 is pretty good (1 replies)
12. L-300 carbine (22 replies)

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > L-300 carbine
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cutefix July 29th, 2001, 01:20 AM

There is a gun called LR-300 which was made by Z-M weapons.This particular weapon was derived from the AR-15.Therefore it fires 5.56 mm ammunition.This LR-300 can be
also fired in semi-auto and in full automatic mode.It was reputed to be better than AR-15.I would like to know if somebody has tested this carbine,and how does it rate in over
all performance.
[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited July 29, 2001).]
Heavy Recoil July 29th, 2001, 01:58 AM

Isnt there a canadian gun that is a ar15/m16 variant that is select fire, c16 or something like that, but I may be wrong. ask AR15 man
------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein
AR-15 Man July 29th, 2001, 05:51 PM

Yea it is related to the AR but expect it uses a piston other than the ARs direct gas system. This adds some weight but it might be more reliable. It also allows you to have a
folding stock. This would make shorter barreled ARs function like they should. I think the damn thing cost to much. If you are worried about reliablity get a well made AR-15
not some mix and match philpino parts gun. Also they may need a break in period and use only USGI mags. If you have the money for a ZM-Weapons LR-3000 and you still
want more reliablity get a damn Valmet. It will be heavy and not as accurate at the AR but the Valmet is what the AK should be. Also the full auto Canadian M-16 is the C7 I
do believe. It uses an A-1 site with A-2 lower. It uses the M-16A1 trigger group.
[This message has been edited by AR-15 Man (edited July 29, 2001).]
AR-15 Man August 2nd, 2001, 09:38 PM

Something I forgot to add. If you give me what you need in a weapon and your level of training I can ussually recommend a good one. But it all comes down to how you like
the feel of the gun.
cutefix August 2nd, 2001, 10:15 PM

I am familiar with M-16 and with the, grenade launcher (M-203 combination),did have some infantry training with this weapon years back. I was looking for new developments
of this .223 weapon,and one of my friends in the army,recommended to see this LR-300 which according to him was a dramatic improvement of the weapon system of the
5.56 caliber.I was interested to see and try if myself,however,I want other opinion from knowledgeable weapon experts in The Forum.Somehow now I had a feeling that this
Z-M weapon was overrated,because if this is really good it could have been very popular by now.I am not a great fan for the AK and I had fired it myself a few times,when I
was in Asia.If I had to choose for 7.62 caliber I would settle for the M-14,and not an AK models,which is inferior in its ammunition quality and accuracy.
Thanks for your assesment AR-15 man,I realize its not worth, to waste money on that LR-300.
AR-15 Man August 3rd, 2001, 12:24 AM

Well, try the Robinson Armaments Expeditionary rifle. It is based off the Stoner 63 and it runs about 1200, has quick change barrels and they are coming out with belt feed
version soon and they already have top fed ones like the Bren. It uses M-16 mags. Or Armalite has reintroduced the AR-180 which is around 600 dollars. It also uses M-16
mags and can use AR trigger parts. It is a piston type gun of Eugene Stoners. Both of these are well made and both are worth the price. If you want versatility get the
Robinson rifle. If you want just one plain Jane rifle get the AR-180. Also understand Valmets are a VAST improvment over the standard AK-47 rifle. But they are pricey along
with the mags for .223 and .308. You can get .308, 7.62x39 and .223. Also if you like AR type controls have you looked at the AR-10 but mags are pricey. But still close to the
price of M-14 mags. Also look at decently made fals on an IMBEL reciever. Not that Century Arms international JUNK well most CAI are junk. Also look at the newly imported
G-3s and CEMTE which are both related and use the same mag and use .308. If you don't live in the USA sorry for teasing you about what we can get.
[This message has been edited by AR-15 Man (edited August 02, 2001).]
angelo August 3rd, 2001, 02:01 AM

AR-15 Man,
if you want a good resource for pictures of firearms go to: http://www.securityarms.com
I've been going there for ages and have found every weapon I was looking for.
You probably already know of this site from my other posts or you already knew about it before I opened my mouth.
------------------
angelo's place (http://hop.to/angelo) | have a good link? add it here (http://pub16.bravenet.com/freelink/show.php?usernum=1307442656) | go to the OZ Forum (http://
pub75.ezboard.com/bozforum97164)
AR-15 Man August 3rd, 2001, 11:50 AM

Yea I have been there long before I ever found the Forum. It is a great resource. I just wish they had more details on some of the guns.
Heavy Recoil August 3rd, 2001, 03:28 PM

I knew it was c something
Stoner or expeditionary rifle pics and info here www.Biggerhammer.net (http://www.Biggerhammer.net)
------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein
[This message has been edited by Heavy Recoil (edited August 03, 2001).]
cutefix August 5th, 2001, 03:17 AM

There are a lot of rifles that uses 7.62x51 ammunition.Even Russia is producing its own version for this ammunition category(AK-.308VEPR rifle) for export purposes.I
have particular penchant for the M-14 because I have used it well for long distance shooting ( about 500 meters and sometimes longer);one thing I dislike only is its
barrel is prone to overheating affecting shot accuracy.I have seen samples of FN-FAL and it looks impressive,and was once used by the British Forces(I just dont
understand why the Brits replace it with the unreliable SA-80).The FAL give impressive performance during the war in Malaya and Oman campaign.I had seen also samples of
the German G-3 and CETME Spanish rifle.I heard that the latter is not a good gun and the Spanish forces are looking for a replacement.I would like to ask if you had any
knowledge of a really robust rifle of this category.I was thinking if the M-14 normal barrel were replaced with a heavier match type, would it improved its robustness.
I might just have to obtain that sniper version of the M-14,complete with its accesories if its still available.
[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited August 05, 2001).]
AR-15 Man August 5th, 2001, 12:13 PM
Well, if your heart is set on .308 then get an M1A. The civie M-14. You can still get them new from Springfield armory. The also still have the loaded package. This lets pick
1000 dollars worth of accessories for the rifle for free. As for the VEPR yea you can get one of them in pistol grip form by the same people who sell the Expeditionary rifle
Robinson Armaments. But no HiCap mags. Unless you want to convert 50-80 dollar GALIL mags. And for the same price you can get a FAL, G-3 or CEMTE. Oh yea the CEMTE in
this country are almost brand new. It is the predessor of the G-3. Oh yea as for FALs the top of the line right now is DSA Arms FALs. You can get one that will shoot 1 MOA with
Match ammo. But it is up there in price with the M1A. They also have every accessory out there for them. The advantage of the FAL is cheaper mags than the M14 and easier
to get parts for. Also if you have the money for a preban FAL get a Belgium FAL. They are TOP grade. But it all comes down to which one you like the best. So go out and see
which one feels like the "extension" of yourself. Oh yea British Special Forces still use the FAL. They can use whatever the hell they like. And they love the FAL. As for regulars
they are stuck with the SA-80. It is such a joke. Will only fire reliably in full auto and the SAW version will only fire reliably in semi. Hahahaha. But SAS also uses the M-16 and
has ordered Canadian version of the US SOFMOD M-4.

Thanks pal,I was really interested with the Fabrique National FAL ever since because I heard alot of favorable comments about it;however I hear also there is fake
copy of it, being circulated that is why I am wary about.I will try to obtain that Belgian made gun.I expect it could give better accuracy.By the way this M-14 has a
special place in my heart because it is the rifle that I maintained longer than any gun,and Im used to the contours of its wooden stock,the trigger pull and the recoil. I
might have to adjust if I have to replace with another rifle of similar caliber.Im also used to shooting with iron sights.Im certain that both M1A or the FAL could give me
the same enjoyment of long distance target shooting whichever I will choose.
I still think the M-16 is superior to the SA-80 with regards to reliability and performance;how much more with M-16A2.,therefore I feel that the bullpup British toy should
be put in the museum. And then start buying American guns.However I dont want to descredit their craftmanship for Accuracy International have the top of the line
sniper rifles,and their Gimpy(L7A2 GMPG )is known to be better than American M60..
AR-15 Man August 6th, 2001, 02:06 AM

If you cannot get a Belgium get a DSA Arms. The quality is the same expect for the Belgium has certain legal status relating to folders, bayonet lugs, and flash hiders. Heck I
think DSA arms uses a lot of Belgium parts too. I know the feeling about having a gun in your heart. My Colt AR-15 is that way. Same way with my Hungarian AK. Nothing can
replace there feeling. My Enfield is starting to get that way on me. Oh yea try some other gun boards. Look up assualt web, fal files, hardcore talk ect. Those Franken FALs as
some people call them can be OK but if you have the cash get the BEST. Trust me once you have the rifle you won't regret it. People were like you paid 900 for an AR-15 well
it is well worth it for me.
HMTD Factory August 8th, 2001, 10:31 PM

The LR-300 has a major different design : No recoil plunger. Its recoil spring is inside the handguard so the bolt is "pulled" forward
instead of "pushed" forward. Another small alteration is that the forward assist is moved forward near the ejection port to act as the brass deflector, some sort of function
intergration.
By clearing the rear space for the plunger, it enable the use of a folding stock. The gun is carefully machined so it has a lot of sharp corners(looks nice but ouch if not carefully
handled), unlike the rounded AR.
The AR's firing mechanism can't move forward to make it a bullpup. Therefore the new design(cleared rear end) don't offer much advantage other than the folding stock.
Only semi-auto will be available to civilians

(if you are one)
People told you if you have the money, go buy

something instead. I am about to tell you the same thing : For 200$ less, you can get a
sleek design, space-age material AR-15 variant called "Carbon-15" from Professional Ordnance, 16" barrel "only weight 3.9 pounds"
. It even has a chrome plated bolt.

Do not get the Carbon 15 if you beat your weapons around like me. Apparently some of the earlier ones had problems of crictical parts being lightened. This caused some
serious breakages. I think they still do this but they worked on it some. Also the price of these rifles in the US is now like 600 dollars. Not to shabby but if you want a light AR
that will hold up get an Olympic LAR-15. It weights like 5 pounds. Also some companies have came out with kevlar lowers now. CAV arms and Hesse make this. Watch out for
Hesse products they have poor QC. If you got a gov't profile 16 inch barrel with Canadain style A1 stocks which are light like the US A1 stocks but made of stronger materials
your gun will be pretty damn light. Also the Carbon 15 uses non standard AR-15 parts. I have heard some good range reports from the newer Carbon 15 but nothing about field
use.

Thanks for that info HMTD,AR-15, it only reinforced my desire to avoid that LR-300.If I happen to choose another .223 caliber assault rifle aside from the M16A2,I might have
to choose the Steyr-Aug;well this weapon is said to be robust ,it can tolerate heavy punishment in the field and shoot well.It is also a space age design,and versatile,it can be
converted into a submachine gun by changing its parts so that it can fire 9mm ammunition.I might have to adjust to its unique appearance and handling;being a bull-pup
weapon.By the way is there any knowledgeable comment about this Austrian Gun?
I think if you had to look for quality, you have to pay the price,therefore cheap alternative guns are not worth obtaining , or keeping at all..Procuring a good gun is
like looking for a wife(it can become your lifetime partner also) .A lot of girls can be your bedroom partners,but you have to look for the quality in the woman that will
become your lifetime partner,(as long as everything comes smooth..or just tolerable).The gun appears to be like that also,there are always preferrences that is very
personal....
AR-15 Man August 9th, 2001, 12:55 PM

I can highly recommend the Steyr AUG. Great damn gun but I myself can't justify that price. Now if it was under 2 grand yea I could. But if money wasn't the issue I would go
for it. But you do realise you can change out uppers on the AR-15 types to make everything from silencered sniper rifles in .300 whisper to SMGs in 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, and
45ACP and also guns in 50 action express and some new round called .458 SOCOM? But I still say get the Steyr AUG. Definitely one of the best weapons ever made. Also the
quick change barrel feature is very nice. I wish ARs had them but I just change up entire upper. Well good luck on your weapon choice and find a rifle that you will give tender
loving care to and that will repay ya. To me AK's are like ugly girls with big tits. You can get them to put out always. But AUGs and AR-15s are like hot ass girls. You need to
take care of them but when they do put out you are in heaven.

Thanks pal for your favorable comment,.I also talked to some of my friends in the firing range and they also liked the gun.,but they think it was very difficult to get the
comprehensive version where you can interchange parts in order to convert it from assault rifle,to submachine gun or even sniper rifle.Even, though, I will give it a try....

Yea sounds like that would be a very pricey thing. I knew there was a AUG bull pup 9mm rifle but didn't realise it was a conversion. For that much you could have a LEGAL full
auto AR-15/M-16 if you live in a class 3 friendly state. But if you are like me you don't like the extra paper work. Plus you know that semi is used more than full auto and good
training can make semi more effective. But for multi calbres get an AR-15. You won't regret it.
angelo August 11th, 2001, 10:01 PM

I have experience with the steyr.
I like it but it is to expensive but on the other hand it lasts a long time can take alot of shit and shoots accurately with the help of the built-in scope.
Yafmot May 14th, 2008, 12:06 AM
The Steyr is sweet, but hopelessdly overpriced. Also, the built-in scope means you're stuck with one type of optic; the one the factory (and the Austrian Army) decides you
need. With an AR-15, you can swap between a reflex sight and, say, a Trijicon ACOG, in seconds. You can also keep adding Picatinny rails to the point that the whole thing is
festooned with so many gadgets that you can hardly see the rifle.
The -15 is a lot like a box of Legos. There are so many different ways to put one together, I'd be dead from terminal writer's cramp by the time I listed them all. Any first time
visitor to the SHOT Show would be blown away by the sheer variety of -15 variants and add-ons. Hell, I've been following the whole ArmaLite story since I was a kid and I'm
STILL flabbergasted by all the accouterments and whatnots.
At least a dozen calibers. You can hang a rail on the bayonet lug. Or the fore end. Or the upper receiver. Or get an upper with an integral rail. And on those rails you can attatch
flashlights, lasers, rangefinders, shotguns, grenade launchers, bipods, and God knows what all else. Sights range from peeps, to reflex, to ALL kinds of scopes, to IR, to
Photomultipliers, to thermal imaging, and all the way up to combinations of photomultiplication and thermal imaging superimposed in one image, some of which can be used
ahead of a conventional scope (though admittedly the latter combination will run you a cool $50K). All of this stuff pops on & off in seconds, still maintaining zero.
And what do you get with an AUG? THEIR scope, THEIR reticle and THEIR optics. Yeah, they're good optics (Leica, IIRC), but it's ALL YOU GET!
Configuration? In 5.56 alone you can have a -15 pistol (rough on the mechanism, but they work for a while). Wanna' fight ? You can put together an M-4 type weapon with a
16" barrel (14 if you want to go Class III), a 4 rail fore end, a flat top upper with a reflex or ACOG, and a collapseable stock. Need to put a lot of bullets through the same
hole? Then you can build a "Space Gun." This will have a matched upper and lower; matched bolt, carrier and upper; 24" barrel with a 6" "Bloop Tube" for sight plane
extension; provision for various weghts & counterweights; buttstock adjustable for length of pull, drop to comb and cant angle; a two stage, three-way adjustable trigger
group; a $1,200 set of Anschutz micrometer peepsights and, aw, what the hell, a CUSTOM PAINT JOB! Bring about $10 Grand.
There's simply no other gun system, at any price, that offers the versatility of the AR-15/M-16 platform. Name another gun for which there are dozens of healthy, profitable
companies making aftermarket parts exclusively for it (except maybe the 1911 pistol).
Buy a Steyr, and you'll expend a lot of fruitless effort just to find things you can do with it. With a -15, your only problem will be choosing which way to go
-=HeX=- May 14th, 2008, 02:10 PM

Yafmot: sorry for stepping on your toes about a firearm related subject, you do know your stuff, but you can change the scores on a streyr. I had the good fortune to spend a
day at a military range last year and saw a streyr being fitted with night scopes. I also noted that the grenade launcher is very easy to mount.
The ar15 however did have less recoil when fired. The ar15 had a torch and laser mounted as well as a scope. The streyr had its grenade launches mounted but was semi auto
only. Both had less recoil than my neighbours shotgun!
file May 21st, 2008, 04:31 AM

Performance is pretty similar(in my opinion anyway), so get the one that fits you more. I'm in contact with a few guys who used to work for Cav arms or work for them, and
can attest that they are a very stand up company.
I don't own an AR yet though. I really want one though. Yafmot hit the nail on the head about it being a lego gun. Anything is possible on it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > Sten gun in PMJB
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green beret January 13th, 2002, 02:44 AM

Hi all. The sten has been talked about before but I am wondering if anyone has succesfuly made one.
The plans in the PMJB vol.1 look pretty good but is it worth buying all the neccesary tools and materials to make one? Thanks
eveyone.
PS Its good to be back.
BoB- January 13th, 2002, 05:49 AM

Historically, several assasination attempts have been delayed/avoided because these fuckers jam so often.
Also, the thumb hole stock is kind've gay, this is probably to make the weapon concealable, but it probably hurts like hell, and
would leave a tell-tale ring around the shooters finger.
Its a simple, cheap design though.
J January 13th, 2002, 06:58 AM

<a href="http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/history/sten/index.htm" target="_blank">This</a> site has a history of the
Sten. Note how the unreliability was usually down to the magazine design, not the actual gun itself.
As to whether anyone's actually built a Sten, there's a mailing list dedicated to it <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
sten9mm/" target="_blank">here!</a>
Hundminen January 13th, 2002, 03:48 PM

I can't attest to the accuracy of those blueprints,but I have experients with this weapon(I began to reverse engineer one
awhile back but hell knows where I put the figs)Are these the prints that were available on wetworx.com?
The sten mk2 is a reliable weapon provided that healthy mags are used.There is not much to go wrong with this design
mechanically.However the loop stock is more comfortable(but slippery on the shoulder) on the hand than the t-design.I'm a
lefty so the mag port was always a hazzard I watched for.
I wore leather gloves when fireing this weapon.
If one were to build a sten gun,use your imagination and simplify the trigger mechanism to only trigger and sear(fa only).I
feel the sear design is little more work in milling op than nesseccary=simplify the lines.
The improvsed barrel latch looks kind of flimsy and somthing to watch out for.but then I would press fit and pin the barrel on a
homemade design.
Xtramad January 15th, 2002, 12:58 AM

Actually, I'm working on a sten gun right now.
I downloaded the plans availdable at <a href="http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/" target="_blank">http://
www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/</a> but found that the sten requires quite a bit of turning and milling, since I don't have
acsess to a milling machine and can't use the lathe at work for anything more than turning a simple blank for the bolt, I
decided to simplify the drawings. And as I was allready going to alter it's looks, I decided to incorporate some of my own
design ideas, proper pistol grip, retractable buttstock, M16-style carrying handle which also acts as a guard for the cocking
lever, verticle magazine and a safety which blocks the sear. I'm planning on posting these machinist drawings on the web for
free when I'm finished along with the plans for a MAC10 copy made from rectangular steel tubing (the mac only requires
welding and hand tools). Let me know if this sounds interesting.
If anyone has the drawings of the MAC10 selective fire trigger group I'd be grateful, if not I'll have to design my own.http://
home.no/sosanthjemmeside/Bilder/Warthog.gif
J January 15th, 2002, 08:42 AM

Yes, I'd be very interested indeed. Please keep us all informed :cool:
Agent Blak January 15th, 2002, 05:54 PM

I have been told by a buddy of mine that, "The Sten gun has only 7 moving parts". is this true?
The Stens seem to be all 9mm. Are making yours of the same caliber? do you have any aspartaions to make it a supressed
weapon?is it going to be a claw used to extract the spent shell?
I am very interested in seeing your plans aswell as hering about your progress. keep up the good work.
PYRO500 January 15th, 2002, 11:49 PM

It is Possible that that is true, I do not know much about the sten gusn but I can name some of the moving parts the sten
gun will have: operating handle (aka cocking lever), trigger, sear assembly bolt/firing pin assembly, extractor (may be part of
bolt) trigger, recoil spring"s"? and of course you have the magazine clip and the bullets themselves, but I can't think of any
else right now.
Scientist November 5th, 2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Xtramad
I'm planning on posting these machinist drawings on the web for free when I'm finished along with the plans for a MAC10 copy
made from rectangular steel tubing (the mac only requires welding and hand tools). Let me know if this sounds interesting.
I'm interested. Could you post them please?
xyz November 6th, 2003, 03:57 AM

Well it looks like he can't post them, he is banned. I have no idea why.
dinkydexy November 6th, 2003, 10:25 AM

The tendency of the Sten to jam at crucial moments might not be such a bad thing...the 2 Czech SOE parachutists tasked to
assassinate Reinhard Heydrich in 1943 experienced such a jam and one of them had to lob a hand-grenade into his open-
topped staff car. The explosion didn't kill him immediately, but some of the horsehair filling in the car's luxurious leather
uphostery found its' way into his bloodstream and caused him to suffer an agonising death by blood poisoning quite some
time later.
Hurrah for jamming stenguns is what I say.
Ammonal November 7th, 2003, 09:41 AM

I just got a firearms licence and I bought a second hand Winchester Lever .44mag, it has to be the meanest thing I have
used other than 12G solids, it puts inch holes in 1/2" steel!
Sorry about that, I am still getting over how powerful the rifle is, anyway since I got 250 rnds of .44mag I was thinking about a
.44mag subgun design. This at the moment is entirely conceptual, but I got inspired by the H&K UMP45. Has anyone got
suggestions or compliments on how stupid this idea is? I would want to use a locked closed bolt for accuracy(high pressures
caused by magnums) and safety and a custom barrel of approx 10", folding stock, open iron sights and semi and full auto
operation; I am guessing I'll be using gas operation too...
Is there other magnum firing subguns out there or are they just too expensive to run??
NickSG November 7th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Making any kind of homemade gun to shoot a .44mag is a very bad idea. Its a very high energy high pressure round, and is
guarenteed to burst just about any pipe you come across.
If you want it to fire a fairly large bullet, go with the .38 special (standard pressure). Its a relativly low pressure round, and its
rimmed. Im hoping to make a .38 special single shot handgun sometime soon. I already made and test fired a .22 zipgun. I
just havent taken any pictures yet.
xyz November 7th, 2003, 10:41 PM

As NickSG said, the .44Mag is a very high pressuere round and shouldn't be used in homemade firearms unless you know
what you are doing. If you use a commercial barrel you should be OK though, you should be able to get one here. (http://
www.mab.com.au/products/barrels/default.htm)
Most subguns use rimless ammunition types, the .44 Mag is rimmed so you would need to design a new extraction
mechanism for whatever gun you are basing yours on.
9mm or .22LR are the cartridges of choice for homemade subs, you should read the "Home Workshop Firearms" volumes 1 to
5 (on the FTP) if you want to learn more about homemade subs, handguns, and machine pistols in these calibres.

This was only a concept as such, but I have made several succeessful and reliable .22lr "zipuns".
I know of Australian barrel suppliers, for the 'conceptual' extraction mechanism I got inspired from the breech block of the
Winchester lever gun, This has a lip that catches the rim of the cartridge and opposing this there is an extractor hook which
graps the opposite rim. As you move the laver through its unloading/chambering path (imagine that the chamber is empty) as
the lever comes back, the breech block (bolt) moves back until it clears the first round in the tube magazine allowing the
round to rise up the face of the breech block, the rim slides into the lip and the extractor hook. blah blah fire the weapon,
pulling the lever back after firing pulls the cartridge from the chamber until it reaches a point when the extractor hook is
released from the rim and the shell is flung out the side opening.
I do undestand what I a proposing here and this would be more than just an improvised firearm, it would be a serious
approach to constructing a reliable home defence weapon because current regimes in this country (parts of sydney are
becoming rather dangerous)
zaibatsu November 9th, 2003, 10:36 AM

xyz:
"Most subguns use rimless ammunition types, the .44 Mag is rimmed so you would need to design a new extraction
mechanism for whatever gun you are basing yours on."
"9mm or .22LR are the cartridges of choice for homemade subs"
Try to avoid contradiction, although your sentiments are very correct. I wouldn't fire .44mag in an smg, the rim will cause
problems not only in extraction, it will also make it more difficult to design a magazine for. However, you could gain some
information on smgs feeding rimmed ammunition through the Bill Holmes Home Workshop book on the .22LR machine pistol,
and also on the informational (thanks for uploading it jelly) Home Workshop Prototype Firearms.
You really need to decide what you actually want - a pistol calibre semi-automatic carbine, or a SMG. Btw, for information on
using larger bullets in an SMG (.45ACP) check the minuteman blueprints.
thenew-philist November 9th, 2003, 07:18 PM
Let's not forget the 7.62X25 round. A few old combloc SMG's use this hot round such as the PPSH
series, the CZ-24 and 26 series for a few. I have found that the 7.62X25 round to be quite a hot, almost magnum power
round. Some STENs were made in this caliber using a different barrel and the original 9mm mag. The 7.62 fed better since it is
basically a necked down 9mm round with easier feed config due to its shouldered cartridge case.
Jacks Complete November 9th, 2003, 07:52 PM

Hi there,
Ammonal, I just bought a Marlin .44 U/L, the cowboy model. Haven't managed to shoot it yet, though, since I can't find
anywhere that has .44 in stock! :( You are right about the cost - in the UK, 100 .44 magnum rounds costs a staggering 70!
That's 70p each. I am beginning to doubt I can afford to run the U/L, let alone anything more fancy. .22 can be got for 30 a
thousand!
You might want to look at getting a reloading press, but I hear Aus has some pretty stiff restrictions on everything now. Very
like the uk, except we don't have controls on *all* ammo components yet, and you have a vague chance of getting a pistol.
Anyway, hope she shoots alright! You can crank the rounds through your u/l pretty dammed quick once it is a bit worn in. It
takes a lot longer to reload!
Back on topic, I would agree that firing a .44 Magnum on auto would be bad, but you could always cut the charge down to that
of a .44 Special (much the same as .357 Magnum becomes .38 Special) and use those. They are subsonic, too, which cuts the
blast and noise quite a lot.
I would stick with .22 if I were ever going to try something like your suggestion, otherwise you will barely be able to pick it up
fully loaded! 100 .44 weighs a hell of a lot more than 100 .22! Also, consider the recoil. You will soon get used to shooting the
.44 as fast as you can aim, as that really is the limit, with the recoil from such a powerful round (Yes, I know it isn't like a 7.62
or anything, but it is still the most powerful common hangun round in the world!) you can have worked the action before you
get your sight picture back.
Ammonal November 9th, 2003, 08:06 PM

Yes I must apologise for using the term subgun (.44mag pistol round) when this concept would be a select fire carbine, I think
that the .44mag is a great round and in a good barrel of approx 10-14" barrel the cartridge would perform very well in close
quarters and at slightly longer ranges.
I guess you could say that this is employing a 'shock and awe' tactic, for if someone decides to pull a 9mm handgun and start
firing, unless the shooter is seasoned to the blast of a .44mag then I think that a shot or two in their general direction or just
over their heads is going to send them into a state of shock let alone if you shot the person then they are in a whole world of
bad.
Yes I already have a magazine design sketched out and I am looking into higher capacity feed options like snail mags and
drums. I would not be thinking of sustained fire, just higher capacity for the sake of less reloading in a situation when having
50 rounds loaded ready would increase my chances of survival somewhat instead of reloading in 20 round box mags one at a
time (I wouldnt like to find myself in that situation that I would have to rely on 50 rounds but in the unstable world that we live
in, the chances of that are increasing).
What kind of penetration of body armour does a .44mag achieve? From 25 meters it puts a 1" diameter hole in 1/2" steel, so
I figure it has got some sting and knockdown power.
Yes Jacks complete thankyou for the statement it is the 'most common handgun round' this makes it easier for me (with my
firearms licence, because I own a pistol caliber rifle I can buy ammo) and reloading is alot easier to get equipment and
munition components legally.
NickSG November 9th, 2003, 10:01 PM

Im pretty sure a level III vest can withstand .44 magnum FMJ bullets.
Kid Orgo November 10th, 2003, 01:55 AM

I'm no ballistics expert, but I'm pretty sure a hit on the chest from a .44mag, even one that doesn't penetrate the vest, would
probalby put a man down. Internal bruising, maybe a spinal injury. At the very least, he has something to think about as he
tries to breathe and stand back up.
xyz November 10th, 2003, 06:28 AM

Sorry about that Zaibatsu, I was just pointing out that .22LR is a good choice for homemade subs.
The thompson is .45ACP so you should also be able to get some info from those blueprints.
All standard pistol calibres can be stopped fairly easily by body armour because the bullet is low velocity (compared to rifle
calibres) and has a high frontal area compared to it's overall mass.
If you want an armour piercing weapon, you will need to use rifle ammunition types (.223, 5.45mm) or high velocity pistol
ammunition types (5.7mm, .224 Boz, .221 Fireball, etc.).

Yes it was as I suspected - the effect of a .44mag would be reduced by body armour, but this has me thinking. What about
the higher velocities achieved by the longer barrel, would this give you a slightly better chance of penetration?
I certainly believe Kid Orgo's comment about the stopping power of a .44mag slug (all my rounds are hollow points) that even
if body armour stopped it, the person would surely be shocked enough to allow time for a follow up or escape.
Another issue I have is with the degree of muzzle rise I get on a 20" barrel is about 2.5" rise at the muzzle, this prompts me
to research and probably design an efficient muzzle compensator. For even in the case of firing semi auto, I do not wish to
have to pull the gun back down to earth after each shot. And in the event of full auto firing I would certainly hope that the
muzzle compensator is highly effective.
I have finished researching reloading my own brass and overall it appears that it would cut the cost of buying loaded rounds by
AU$0.40, currently it would cost AU$48 for 50 rounds of .44mag hollow points, that would save me about AU$20 / 50 rounds!
This would also give me the option of using the suggestion of Jack's Complete to reduce the loading of the cartridge from
magnum to .44 special.
Another thought that I have been considering is a using a custom barrel from an Australian barrel supplier that would thread
into the receiver, this would allow me to possess a series of barrels for different pistol calibers. This of course would mean that
each barrel would have to be tapped for the gas operation but that can be arranged ahead of time and then when the
situation arrises requiring the use of the weapon the barrel is changed to suit the ammunition and the conditions.
The action being driving by a piston system similar to that of the AK series would be unaffected by utilising magnum load
cartridges but for standard, more common cartridges adjustments or slight modifications may have to be made to the action
and/or gas regulating system.
Since I am finished my major exams I might do some working drawings and sketch some ideas that I have.
steyr November 22nd, 2003, 06:35 PM

How much time will take making sten if I have everything (tools, materials)? Maybe someone has shopping list :D with parts
(ex. 0,5m of steel pipe, etc.). I want to make one, but plans I found are incomplete or too hard for me...
xyz November 22nd, 2003, 09:46 PM

If they are too hard then maybe you shouldn't be doing it.
Radon has already warned you one more useless post and he'll ban you, you better hope he doesn't see this one.
steyr November 23rd, 2003, 05:26 AM

Ya, they are hard, if I can't see anything on the plate, they are. I started making Sten, but I don't have all of materials. I'll
tell you when it will be finished.
xyz: I thought this forum is for helping, not flaming. You are making this site "The Explosives and Flame Forum". I don't think
you can count posts with only flame. Go to water cooler if you want to chat with me about my faults.
Jacks Complete November 23rd, 2003, 10:26 AM

Steyr,
It isn't about flaming you, it is about the fact that we don't want a forum full of things like:
"Yeah, I tried that but it didn't work" or "plans I found are incomplete or too hard for me..."
because it tells us nothing, and adds nothing. Fill your post with details, otherwise it isn't worth my time reading it. Example:
What does
"Ya, they are hard, if I can't see anything on the plate, they are."
mean?
A post that said
"I have Luty's book, but I can't get a taper reamer anywhere, has anyone got any ideas?"
would be far better, as then we could help you, and others thinking of following your work would maybe think "Well, I should
see if I can get that before I buy anything else on the list." or perhaps they would look at other sets of instructions, rather
than Luty's.
Anyway, on with my post:
I just bought two books off Amazon, purely for something I am writing. One is "Bazooka: Build your own" and the other is
Luty's book, "Expedient homemade firearms: The 9mm machine gun". The main reason for getting Luty's book was that it
was mentioned on the forum, and it is a masterpiece. The design is absolute genius! Of course, it could be flawed, but I don't
see any. Of course, I haven't made it!
I also bought it as a measure of support to the guy... If the News of the World get away with making guns out of deacts to
show how "easy" it is, then Luty should have had the same "Public interest" arguements accepted by the courts.
The homemade bazooka book is pretty short, and quite interesting. Anyone else seen/read it? Anyone else got thoughts on
Luty's design?
steyr November 23rd, 2003, 10:49 AM

Ok ok end this flaming! I have downloaded right now Home Workshop firearms: The 9mm machine gun, with "resistance
manual" in html. I must say that is great. It has simple drawings for someone who can't understand structure of Sten or
Thompson. I'll give an example:
http://steyrphotos.w.interia.pl/shotgun.gif
Simple Improvised 12 gauge Shotgun
Materials Required:
Wood 2" x 4" x 32"
3/4" nominal size water or gas pipe 20" to 30" long threaded on one end.
3/4" steel coupling
Solid 3/4" pipe plug
Metal strap (1/4" x 1/16" x 4")
Duct tape or metal strapping and screws
3 wood screws and screwdriver
Flat head nail 6D or 8D
Hand drill
Saw or knife
File
Elastic Bands
It's easy, and making trigger for it isn't a problem
EDIT:
Now I realised that zip I downloaded contains also Expedient Homemade SMG - That's GREAT!!! And easier than Home
Workshop firearms: The 9mm machine gun. 64mb of pure knowledge.
dana_m_h November 23rd, 2003, 12:32 PM

I am currently working on one of these it will be sorta short that is the length of pipe I had o well I will post what happens sorry
no videos
steyr November 23rd, 2003, 12:40 PM

Dana, it's hard to understand you. You are working on Sten, other Smg or shotgun?
Tommorow I will start making stock and collecting stuff needed to make my own shotgun, then simple semi auto, and then
SMG. I'll make photos, and post them here. Bye
PHAID November 23rd, 2003, 05:27 PM

Jack what type of reamer you looking for?

I may have one around the house if its the type im thinking of.
Contact me and let me know the specs of what you want.
Steyr as for your interest in the sten plans there are several ways to find them,
The links i posted on the 12ga ammo thread give both the sten plans along with a reciever printout as well as the mac.
If you buy the parts kit it only takes basic mechanical skill to make the reciever or if you are skilled in metal working i also
have the complete plans for you to machine your own from scratch.
steyr November 24th, 2003, 05:01 AM

Thanks Phaid, but I'm not skilled in mechanics :D . Now I'm working at shotgun and collecting stuff for the Expedient
Homemade SMG (book is very, very good - 31mb/pdf). Go to thread Weapons Plans (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?s=&threadid=655) and if you want something, mail me
Jacks Complete November 24th, 2003, 07:01 PM

PHAID,
Thanks for the offer, but I was just using the taper reamer as an example for how to post a good post!
I ain't making any of these things, as I don't fancy doing prison time, when I have or have access to all these things and
more! I leave it to others who want to run the risk.
As it stands, however, there is no law (yet) in the UK about helping people work on theoretical ideas. :)
ajt November 9th, 2004, 01:39 PM

Hi, Steyr do you have a URL for the download you specified earlier "Home Workshop firearms: The 9mm machine gun"...?
I have some stuff scanned and other interesting things I would like to upload but it seems the FTP (either of the ip's I have
found on here ) are not working,nor any of the torrents...
Please excuse my ignorance as I am new here and rather paranoid...!
Thanks
aj
guerrero December 29th, 2004, 12:06 PM

Why fabricate a copy of the sten? There exist better constructions. E.g. the swedish Carl Gustav SMG is a more simple
construction, was in use in a lot of armies and worked well. According to homemade guns I would prefer this construction but
there exist more simple plans like the Minuteman SMG (cal .45) and the SMG of Luty. Im of the opinion that a combination
of Lutys model with the Minuteman (bolt ) with a rifled barrel in cal 9 mm would be the most convenient solucion.
tdog49 December 31st, 2004, 08:24 PM

Steyr,
your profile doesn't mention where you live. This information is definitely crucial to building a sten. WHY??? because here in
the good ol'USA, you can buy a parts kit and then buy a bonded template receiver tube. cut the holes in the tube and then
use the plans as an assembly guide, no machining required. There is a bit of welding involved but hey, thats a cake walk.
Both items can be had for less than $100 total from various dealers in Shotgun News. magazines are also available starting at
$9.99........
However let me point out something to all the newbies and any kewl lamers who maybe lurking.
In the USA, the construction of a full auto weapon, the possession of an unlicensed buildable receiver, or the possession of a
parts kit and and a bonded template receiver tube (which qualifies as intent and therefore prosecutable) can qualify you for
the grand prize of:
3 hots and a cot for 10+ years in a FEDERAL prison.
a $10,000 fine plus all assorted legal fees
a close personal relationship w/ a large, hairy and probably bad smelling cellmate
and who knows what else under the new homeland security act......
all that for a lousy hundred bucks.....
building an unlicensed full auto is not something you can brag about (even here....nobody and I mean NOBODY should know.
Ask P.A. Luty how he got caught....), show off, or really enjoy as you will always be looking over you shoulder when you take it
out of its hidey hole. This is serious business and should be left to those who fully understand the ramifications and potential
consequences of their actions, and are willing to pay them. Because if you get caught, it WILL come down to lethal gunplay,
and if you get away they will NEVER stop hunting you.
food for thought.........
nbk2000 January 7th, 2005, 07:47 PM

Guns are tools to be used for a specific job, and then immediately disposed of, NOT something to keep around!
Weapons lock their users into a predictable pattern of usage. This is how I've overcome (bare-handed) gun armed wanna-be
thugs several times, because they thought that a gun made them invincible, a delusion they suffered from until they meet
me. :)
They less often you use a weapon, the less habituated you become to using it, thus the less likely to develop patterns that
can be used against you, or that'll make you predictable.
And something like a sten gun is really inappropriate for the most part. It's highly inaccurate (spray-and-pray), gobbles up
ammo, and is a life sentence nowadays (thanks to Patriot Act).
Better to use a semi-auto, regardless of caliber, and develop excellent marksmanship skills so that you are 'One Shot, One
Kill' lethally accurate. All the true gunfighters of the western era were. Become a master of your weapon, don't let it master
you.
tdog49 January 8th, 2005, 03:12 PM

good points!
full autos are best obtained thru legal means and used for ammusement.
however, reading and examining all the various plan books is quite fun in itself. at least for a gadget nerd like myself......
A good quality pistol or shotgun will handle all your defensive needs....
combined of course w/ a fair amount of practice.
tomu January 8th, 2005, 08:33 PM

A STEN submachine gun is a selective fire weapon, it can be fired full or semi auto.
And a STEN gun or similar submachine gun is one of the easiest to build guns, You don't even need machine shop for building
one. Combine Luty's design with the simple trigger group of a STEN. You got a multi shot weapon which can be switched
between semi and full auto by just pressing a button and which could be handled with ease.
I really would like to see a similar simple design for a multi shot shot gun.
Btw, most shootings occour within a distance of 5 m or less so a rifled barrel isn't necessary.

you will need a mill and or a lathe if you start from scratch building a sten.
but not if you start w/ a parts kit. you will need to weld either way you go.
heck you can build a full auto weapon w/ a hacksaw and a file as your primary tools.....it'll just take longer.
as to the selective fire part. I am not disputing that. most full auto designs are in reality selective fire. (full or semi) some
even have burst options.
my points all have to do w/ the legality and consequences of possessing an unlicensed class 3 weapon. Also, I completely
agree with NBK's stance that you would be better served by a *legal* semi auto weapon or (my preference) a pump shotgun.
possessing a kit or plans is just part of the equation. building is another part. fully understanding what it is you are doing (a
highly illegal act) is an equally important part.

You are talking about the legal situation in the USA. But there are just a few other countries around the world as well.
You might think about to consider that there are places where one cannot legaly obtain a firearm might it be semi or full auto.
I'm wondering usually there is very little discussion about legallities in E&W. To make myself clear I'm talking about the
technical aspect of building a gun not the legal thingie.
As you said it by yourself it is possible and feasible to build a STEN gun or at least a very similiar design from scratch with out
a lathe or mill even without a welder (I'm not talking here about an exact copy or replica of a STEN). Have look at Luty's
design and use the simple trigger group of a STEN as I wrote in my previous post.
Btw, the Luty as well as the STEN can be build as a semi auto only weapon by just not grinding the bolt body flat at one side.
Only the flat side of the bolt body provides for full auto capabilty in the STEN.
DroppinLead January 9th, 2005, 10:11 PM

Hi all. The sten has been talked about before but I am wondering if anyone has succesfuly made one.
I'd have to say ...ehhhummm!!!! A close personal friend of mine has assembled both the Mk.2 and the Mk.% and to tell you
in advance...... unless you have some excellent welding skills or are quite handy with a mig or a tig wire feed welder... your
gonna run into only one main hurdle to climb....
The ejector hook that needs to be as solid as hell to insure a working sten replica arm.
4130 seamless steel tubing is thin shit to say the least and aything aside from an experienced welder will either burn through
the reciever or weld it into place only to have it cycle 2 to maybe 32 rounds before it gets stripped off the reciever and at $5 a
pop it's a bitch of a lesson to learn. Try taking the stripped reciever (preferrably before you cut the bolt handle slot or weld on
the front barrel bushing ) down to a local trustworthy looking machineist and with only the ejection port and the magazine port
cut, ask him to weld it in place and be sure to show him exactly how it needs to be. $40 with no reciept was all my local
machinist charged and I told him it was for a paintball gun I'm looking to redesign.
But aside from that...FUCK the Mk.3!!!!!! unless you care to have the extra bullshit un-removable barrel on your felony waiting
to happen machine-gun...oooopps! I mean machine gun replica...heheh :)
tdog49 January 14th, 2005, 02:29 AM

Tomu,
I realize there are other countries in the world. I didn't fail world geography....it was close but I did pass....lol!
Seriously though
My point is simply that you must be aware of all local and national laws pertaining to what you are doing regardless of which
country you live in. Finland ( for example) has much more lenient laws about full autos, BUT , the U.K. is actually more strict.
building an illegal firearm (regardless of country) has very sever consequences if you get caught. I am not saying "don't
build", I'm just saying this isn't a game for the faint of heart. This is quite serious and you should think twice ( maybe even 30
times) before you jump in....

Most of what s d iscussed a t E&W ca n get you a felony ch arge and land you in prison. I totally agree with you that everybody
should know what he is doing and what consequences could come out of this.
Laws are made by mostly co rrupt politicians some laws make sense others don t. In my opinion most gun laws which prohibit
the a quireing, possesion etc. of guns are rubbish this laws won t prevent th e illegal use of guns by criminals at all.
To guerrero:
>>Im of the opinion that a combination of Lutys model with the Minuteman (bolt ) with a rifled barrel in cal 9 mm would be
the most convenient solucion.<<
I managed to download the plans for the minuteman submachine gun and looked it through. The bolt for the minuteman smg
as it is shown in the plans need to be machined with a lathe and with a mill.
Luty s b olt is a very much simplified design of the m inuteman bolt. His redesign does awa y with machining you ju st have to
drill two holes and e ven th ey can b e omitted, it also does away with the extractor. So Luty s b olt is much more easier to build
than the original minu teman b olt. I rea lly don t kno w what you are talking about or better what do you think you would gain
by the use of the original minuteman bolt.
As to the use of a rifle d barrel if you can ge t a rifled barrel blank use it but if you don t have access to a rifled barrel it s just
not worth the effort to rifle one by yourself, for a smg firing fro m an op en bolt like Luty s, the minuteman or the STEN. T h o s e
guns aren t precision weapons they spray bullets everywhere with or without a rifled barrel, for the short distance use of a
smg a smoothbore is good enough.

Tomu,
I agree completely about the gun laws and their detrimental effects.
as to rifling a barrel, here is food for thought....

IF!!!! ( and that is a big one, I'll admit) you can aquire/make a smoothbore barrel that is of the proper bore for the projectile
used, you should achieve 5"-10" groups @ 100yds. Most shotguns will provide 5" groups w/ smoothbores. 5" to 15" or even
20" is perfectly acceptable if you train yourself to aim center of mass.....
Chamber,trunion and bolt tolerances are your next big accuracy variables, also dont forget trigger pull. stiff gritty triggers will
cause the gun to move before and during firing.
the big k January 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM

K,
If you want to read about someones attempts to build Luty's creation try http://home-smg.pochta.ru/ Luty's are about the
simplest plans I've seen, and it looks like a long, difficult and very illegal trip. For what is basically a fun toy.

That site has a new address, it was originally posted here by a person going by the name of "xload".
It does seem to be taking him a while as he first posted the site here last summer.
DroppinLead January 21st, 2005, 09:12 PM

A STEN submachine gun is a selective fire weapon, it can be fired full or semi auto.
:cool:
Well this is kinda true. Even the best sten mk.2 swim has built and/or shot, (in semi or R ) always seemed to let two or even
three shots rip out the muzzle with one pull of the trigger. When shooting, I'd grasp the ventilated barrel shroud, never the
magazine like every single idiot I ever let shoot them with me. Even though the repeating shots in semi were probably builder
misalignment errors rather than the sten mk.2 being prone to discharging rapid fire in semi auto mode.
Also, I read above that someone said using a sten or a full auto weapon will get us citizens life inprisonment in the usa due to
the patriot act....Is this true? :eek:
All the more reason to leave no witnesses !
crucible January 21st, 2005, 11:23 PM

JC
I know you weren't asking about the reamer but I had a similar problem and someone suggested a novel dream(?) solution.
Get a length of @9mm steel rod and cut a notch in one end (like an arrow notch). Next saw off a piece of that 3mm saw blade
you used elsewhere in the plans and grind it to the chamber measurements in the book (9.65mm - 10mm) - actually it would
be better to get some additional measurements from the web. Then put a cutting edge edge on opposite sides. Silver solder
or JB Weld it into the notch so it looks like and arrowhead with a blunt tip. This should work for one or two barrels. I could
never find a 1:50 taper reamer in Aus in the correct size nor are 9mm reamers around to borrow. Beside this method really is
expedient.
Another idea I had was to take a standard 10mm drill bit and using a diamond stone attached to a jig/frame set to the correct
angle grind it until the end is 9.65mm and using this an an expedient reamer.
Crucible

If the chamber isn't cut to the right dimensions a lot of trouble happens. Feeding, extraction, ignition problems abound.
Without proper (special) machines and a lot, really a lot of experience in tool making it is almost impossible to build/grind a
chamber reamer to proper dimensions from scratch by yourself which will cut a proper chamber for a semi or full auto gun.
Just buy a chamber reamer from Brownells, it's easier and most of the time cheaper. I don't know if buying a chamber reamer
is illegal anywhere in the world, but customs know shit about chamber reamers anyway, a 9 mm Luger chamber reamer looks
just like a normal 9 mm reamer, nothing about it looking funny or special in anyway.
If you will go by Luty's way ask a machine shop where they buy there tools any tool supplier who sells machine tools can get a
1:50 tapering reamer for you but it will probably cost much more than a chamber reamer ordered from Brownells, ebay might
also be good source for reamers of all sorts.
xload February 9th, 2005, 05:53 PM

Hello, I'm back :), I'm making the Luty SMG, and i've all parts(you can read all in may web).
To make the chamber i bougth a 9mm luger chamber reamer in ebay whitout any problem.
Tribal February 14th, 2005, 01:03 PM

I was thinking here... If you're making a mac 10, sten and that style of guns, maybe you could tell me, can I make SMG in a
pistol style layout, like mac 10 has it, but with 7.62x25 TT ammunition, becouse I don't have many great possibilities of
purchasing ammo, I'm in Latvia, I know a few dealers, that could get me some TT or PM ammunition (only russian made
ammo), but I'm thinking that 9x18mm PM wouldn't be enough for my needs. And another one, how can I know what kind of
recoil spring to use, won't it be too soft or otherways - too powerful, thet the gun won't be full auto...
And I don't have any access to any books, so I have no idea if the bolt will work, so I'm in real trouble, can you help me?
Some blueprints, some instructions, maybe, I'd be thankful. I just die to get SMG...
tdog49 February 15th, 2005, 12:12 AM

Tribal,
There are several ways to get blueprints. One is to hang around here long enough to gain access to the ftp and download the
plethora of goodies there. Another is to actually buy the plans. You will find books for sale at:
www.amazon.com
www.paladinpress.com
www.thehomegunsmith.com (appears to be down at the moment)
Modifying the gun for 7.62x25 shouldnt be too complicated. Change measurements accordingly and this should be pretty
basic. As far as the recoil spring goes....follow the instructions in which ever book you get a hold of and just make it a little
longer. This would increase the force of the spring. You could also try adding a secondary spring. It will take a little trial and
error but not too much. As to a pistol grip fed design, the Metral sould be a perfect starting point..
Another starting point would be to begin with a dissassembled smg kit, like the sten kit I bought at www.interordnance.com. I
am unaware of Latvia's gun laws so I don't know what options you have at your disposal. I do know where to buy
disassembled CZ 26's which are chambered for the 7.62x25......if you can import them anyway.....
xload February 15th, 2005, 07:31 AM

Unfortunately www.interordnance.com do not send any kit outside USA.
Tribal, you must read the P.A Luty books, there are very easy to make firearms.
lowjack February 15th, 2005, 07:34 AM

Yeah but how common and expensive are 7.62x25's?
tomu February 15th, 2005, 02:16 PM

There is not that much difference in ballistic values between 7,62x25 TT and 9x19 mm (a.ka. 9mm NATO, Luger, Parabelum).
You just have to alter the magazin esp. the feed lips and of course the barrel and chamber dimensions, may be the bolt
where it fits over the magazin, that's all. You don't need to adjust bolt weight or main spring tension, there is much leeway in
both of these, they are not critical.

Well, the problem is, that i don't have any VISA creditcard or so on, so i need to get some for free. And I only have access for
TT Tokarev, Makarov pistols, maybe PPsH-41, AK-47... but that'll cost and I've allways dreamed of making my own SMG.
As about the gun laws: 21 years old with a gun licence, that can only be get if you're a cop or a bodyguard. So there's no much
possibilities.
I'm just a fucking student, I can't get the cash to by an AK illegally, so - time to make my own gun.
But I was wondering, if I had the blueprints, can I make the barrel from tool steel?
I've got the idea of a full auto SMG, but I was wondering, how does the extractor and ejector work, when i would have this, I
might try figure this out and draw it myself...
Thanks anyway, If i'll succeed, I will certainly post it here...
Tribal February 19th, 2005, 07:18 AM

I'm beginning to build the firearm, but i've got a question - how to build and where to put the extractor, how does it work? I
understand everything else except that... Could you please help me?
festergrump February 19th, 2005, 08:53 AM

Your extractor is a springloaded part which resides in the bolt and grips (or rather hooks) the groove in the rear of the
cartridge upon loading into the chamber. When the round is fired, the gas piston or the blowback operation causes the bolt to
slide back upon it's spring and the extractor assures the spent cartridge comes with it. The ejector is usually a non moving part
on the left side (usually) of the bolt housing or reciever of the weapon which the bolt allows to pass thru via a groove (in the
bolt) and strikes the spent shell during the rearward movement of the bolt, thus ejecting the shell to the right. Usually, the
ejector and the extractor are on opposing sides of the cartridge shell.
Not sure if I'm being clear about this but I hope it helps. I've gotten no sleep and am a little bit on the groggy side.
I'd try to check out some diagrams from some earlier patents or download some manuals from biggerhammer.net to see what
I mean. If you have access to even a bolt action rifle, the principal is the same, just the operation of the bolt and trigger
grouping is different for a semi or full auto.

I didn't quite understand... The actual problem is the the ejection of an empty shell. I understand how the cartridge could be
mover into the barrel and then shot, but how to make it go out, so the gut won't jam. Something like PA luty's in a pistol
layout and 7.62x25mm TT ammunition is the one I want to make. No literature avaliable, no VISA available, home workshop
available. And want to make SMG. problem with empty case ejection. HELP!!!

P.A. Luty SMGs don't have extractor and it works perfecty.
An extractor is needed only if the round have any problems and the SMG can't fire it.

The extractor in Luty's design is the frontwall/rim of the springpin which envelops the cartridge base, thats why in his design
the cartridge stands out a few milimeters at the base from the chamber.
The ejector is a flat filed screw which is screwdd in the side wall of the receiver and rides in the slot of the springpin which is
part of the bolt. He shows clearly in his book how to widen the slot with a hacksaw in which several sawblades have been
fastened side by side.
Tribal February 21st, 2005, 01:58 PM

I don't quite understand, but as I understand - I only need a magazine, bolt, mainspring, barrel, and a screw? So it would
fire... The problem is I don't have his book, i've only seen few of his drawings. But i'll certainly post a drawing of my own
designed bolt in few days, so you could tell me if that will work or blow up in my hands.
tomu February 21st, 2005, 05:02 PM

You will need an upper and a lower receiver too and some other parts as well. Like a magazine well and trigger parts.

Yes I understand, but I think, that the main part is still the bolt, so here's my bolt design, I only wanted you guys to look at it
and tell me - will it work?

Yeah but how common and expensive are 7.62x25's?
Where I live - I can get 7.62x25mm anytime, i've allready got 200 rounds at home. It only cost me 10 LVL, that would be
about 18$. That's a common ammunition in post soviet countries as 9x18mm makarov and 7.62x39mm is.
Cheap, deadly and allways available from dealers, you just can't get them in shop.
nbk2000 February 25th, 2005, 04:58 PM

Why does everyone save computer drawn graphics as crappy JPEG's, instead of nice 'n' neat .GIF's, like they're supposed to
be? :rolleyes:

Yes I understand, but I think, that the main part is still the bolt, so here's my bolt design, I only wanted you guys to look at it
and tell me - will it work?
My guess is No. It will probably crash the sear when the bolt moves. Why do you want to make it so complicated? What's the
reason why you just don't use a simple fixed firing pin and an open bolt design?
Look at eDonkey there is a copy of Luty's book floating around, look for 'Expedient Homemade Firearms 9 mm Submachine
Gun' by P. A. Luty. There are plans for STEN's and other submachine guns as well you might consider reading/looking at.
Btw. do you have champer reamer for the 7.62x25 mm round? This is a bottleneck cartridge, so I really wonder how you go
about reaming a proper champer for this round. If you don't have a champer reamer and can't manage to buy one, you might
consider using the 9 mm Makarov cartridge instead.
If you know some black marketeer you also might consider buying a Stechkin, quite an interessting little pistol it is.

Thanx, I guess i'll take a look, but about that stechkin - it costs! a lot! I'll look for PA Luty, without you, I could have built a
gun, that wouldn't work. But I can allways use a 7.62x25 instead of 9mm, right? Just making the barrel and a few
parts different.
The eDonkey doesn't work for my PC, perhaps you know other place, where I might get this book, perhaps you could e-mail it
to me?
tomu February 26th, 2005, 10:14 AM

Well, of course you can use the 7.62x25 mm cartridge but you must be able to cut a correct champer for this bottlenecked
round. This is certainly not easy or better this will be a really pain in the butt if you don't have a proper champer reamer for
this cartridge.
Try http://www.thedisease.net/lib-armorer.html for this and other books.

There is not that much difference in ballistic values between 7,62x25 TT and 9x19 mm
I hadnt the foggiest. One of the main reasons for not snatching one of the CZ-26's being sold here and there online was
mainly due to never actually seeing a box of 7.25x39's at the local gun show/shop or even the pawn shops. And them pawners
usually wind up with some good shit. Anyways , good luck on your smg venture. If it's anything as easy as a sten can be, you'll
be buckin' lead in no time'tall.

I hadnt the foggiest. One of the main reasons for not snatching one of the CZ-26's being sold here and there online was
mainly due to never actually seeing a box of 7.25x39's at the local gun show/shop or even the pawn shops. .
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Ther is no 7,25x39 mm cartridge, but I guess this might just be a typo. There is a
7.62x39 mm rifle cartridge for the AK Kalashnikov rifles and ther is the 7.62x25 mm TT or Tokarev pistol cartridge.
If you think that the dimensions of the 7.62x25 TT are the same as the 9x19 mm this is N O T repeat NOT the case. Both
cartridges are NOT interchangeable!
The 7.62x25 mm TT is a bottlenecked pistol cartidge and the 9x19 mm Luger is a cylindrical cartridge with totaly different
dimensions.
I was talking only on ballistic values not dimensions, balistic values are similar but not equal.
Have a look at
http://www.ppsh41.com/TT2.html
for an Articel about 7.62x25 mm Tokarev with pics. or at
http://www.ppsh41.com/reloading.htm
for data of both the 7.62x25 mm TT and the 9x19 mm Luger.
Tribal March 2nd, 2005, 12:54 PM

Thanx Tomu!
That page helped a lot, going to the workshop... And what do you think of PM, it's just that there is a cheap one...
Then i'll have to get it, Yes it is russian made and i suppose it'll be about 50$-60$
Festergrump!
And I'm sorry about not editing my older posts... Whenever i'll have the edit button, from now on - I'll certainly use it...
In russia 7.62x25 is often used as a murder weapon, actually next to a sewed-off shotgun. I don't know about your question,
actually I think they are quite similiar and with some drilling - might work...
tomu March 2nd, 2005, 01:47 PM

Do you mean Pistolet Makarov?
Well, personnaly I really like it. It's just great for self defence. It's not too big, easily concealable, not too heavy to carry, it'
has a double action trigger which means it can be carried ready to fire safely loaded but not cooked, the 9x18 mm Makarov
round carries enough punch. Just a great pistol. If the price is reasonable its a great buy. If it's russian made the workman
ship and the material is alright, if it's a bulgarian or chinese copy check it out before buying it.
festergrump March 2nd, 2005, 02:34 PM

Having fired lots of ammo through various chinese remakes I must agree with Tomu. Feeding and extraction problems are all
too common. Of course, the ammo I shot was purchased through a supplier advertised from the Shotgun News and was most
likely old or military surplus (ie: OLD. I know not the supplier as these weren't my pistols).
I did once own a CZ-52 which chambered the 7.62x 25 round and found it to be an excellent round, indeed. Not exactly too
common of a cartridge to find at your local store, but they can be had pretty readily still in the USA.
Here's a theoretical question I hope someone can answer: If one had a weapon with a barrel which chambered the 9mm X 18,
could one safely modify this weapon to shoot the 9mm parrebellum (9 x 19) round assuming one could ajust the headspace?
I hope this thread gets split to it's own topic to preserve the original idea. We're way off, no?
Tribal, I have nothing against your enthusiasm for information on putting together a working firearm, but would you please
make use of the edit button? You double post quite regularly in a few threads and it becomes annoying. In fact, I'm very
surprised I'm the first to bring this up.
[EDIT: Tribal, check your private messages.]
Jacks Complete March 2nd, 2005, 08:23 PM

festergrump,
have a search, and if there isn't anything, start a thread. I'd keep it quite broad, something like "Easy up-gunning - a guide to
not re-chambering cartridges" or something. There are quite a few that people have mentioned, like shooting .410 shotgun
cartridges out of a .44 magnum (or was it the reverse? You know, I posted it, and I can't remember!), that sort of thing.
Tribal,
edit your post. Unless you are replying to someone who has responded to you. In the case above, your reply comes two posts
before the question!
tomu March 2nd, 2005, 08:25 PM

Here's a theoretical question I hope someone can answer: If one had a weapon with a barrel which chambered the 9mm X 18,
could one safely modify this weapon to shoot the 9mm parrebellum (9 x 19) round assuming one could ajust the headspace?
No it wouldn't work. The bullet dimensions of the 9x18 mm Makarov and the 9x19 mm Luger/Parabellum are different.
Even changing the complete barrel wouldn't be working because, at least all 9x18 mm Makarov pistols I know of have an
unlocked breech, they are straight blow back. The slides of this pistols are too leight weight to operate as a straight blow back
with the Luger round. The 9x19 mm Luger needs a locked breech or a heavy breech block. There was an old german Walther
and at least another spanish pistol that used an unlocked straight blow back breech with 9x19 mm Luger but in both it didn't
work too well.
But it is possible to change the barrel/caliber of the Makarov to .380 ACP or 9 mm Super Police. The .380 ACP is considerably
weaker than the 9x18 mm Makarov, the 9 mm Super Police should be about equall in ballistic values.
In submachine guns which in the majority are of the straight blow back design the breech block aka. bolt is more heavy than
it's the case in normal pistols.
Bert March 2nd, 2005, 09:25 PM

There are quite a few that people have mentioned, like shooting .410 shotgun cartridges out of a .44 magnum (or was it the
reverse?
It's .410 shot shells out of .45 Long Colt or vise versa.
As far as the 7.62 X 25, I just went to the range and tried out 3 different batches of Russian and Bulgarian (surplus, old!) and
Czech ammo. Only the modern Czech was reliable, the others were between 10% and 30% duds... With modern Sellier & Belot
ammo, the CZ-52 ran like a top. Best $119.00 I've ever spent on a gun. A sten in that caliber would be quite entertaining.

JC, Good idea. I will probably do this once I get some ideas straight in my head. Bert is right. The .410 and .45 Long Colt are
completely interchangeable and IMHO make for a nice caliber for a derringer. A nice snake gun for the woods and will keep
many poker games honest.
Tomu, What you say makes perfect sense to me. I was assuming the bullet dimentions were the same. Thanks for pointing
this out. My thoughts were as such:
In the case of a SMG where the barrel is pinned inside a trunion, the barrel of a 9x18 could be moved forward within the
trunion 1mm and re-pinned or welded in place. The mainspring could perhaps be replaced with one of more some more power
and trimmed down to fit until exacting responce achieved.
I figured that a 9x18 is just 1mm shy in cartridge length than a 9mm Parabellum (I never had the two side by side for
comparison). The bullet should be the same as a .357, .38, 9mm, .380, ect (when one adopts the american way of thinking in
calibers). Were I correct, then the shell would merely stick out the back of the barrel when loaded and mate up to the bolt and
extractor perfectly (with luck and some skill). Surely the pressures involved would not be much to consider with only 1mm
difference. Not like anyone can or bothers to reload the 9mm, either, which is good as the shells might be weakened by the
nature of such a hybrid expedient weapon. (I do not know this for certain, though. If you ever look at how a 7.62x 39 fits
inside the chamber of a Kalashnikov, it makes you wonder).
All of this was for food for thought only, anyway. I have my own projects which I have put off for far too long. Thanks for the
input.
[EDIT: The more I think about this, the more I think it could possibly work. Even if the barrel of the 9x18's ID was slightly
smaller (1000ths of an inch, perhaps) the islands of the rifling would perhaps delve deeper into the 9x19 bullet but the end
result would be the same. Lead ball ammo would be the way to go in this instance and all jacketed ammo shunned (I haven't
exactly seen any 9mm ball ammo for sale of late), but still...
Locked breech would cause more of a problem (which would be taken care of by the offset of the barrel) but the sten is a
prime example of an unlocked breech parabellum weapon that works extremely well. Who are we kidding? ;) Thoughts?]
tdog49 March 2nd, 2005, 11:37 PM

Fester,
ok here are the differences between the 9x18 (makarov) and the 9x19 (Parabellum,luger)
bullet diameter is not the same. the .380 (9x17) and 9mm are .356 in diameter while the 9x18 is really a 9.2mm as it is .364
to .365 (depending on barrel manufacturer)
as to length, yes the brass is only 1mm longer BUT the 9x18 is loaded with a 80 to 100 grain bullet at 23-24,000 psi while the
9x19 is loaded with a (usually) 115 to 147 grn bullet at 27-32,000 psi.......the .380 cand handle the same weights as the 9x18
but is usually only loaded to about 126,00 psi
The heavier bullet will result in a longer overall cartridge length and your chamber must take that into account. Not to mention
the extra pressure.....
However you could make it work ( i think) but only in a weapon with a locking breech or something like a Hi-Point. I would
think that any otc 9mm could have another barrel made for it in 9x18 and yo might have to play with the recoil spring to get it
to cycle reliably
Much info can be found at www.makarov.com

Aha... I concede. Thank you for setting me straight, and as I said before... it was merely food for thought. A good link you
provided, also. :)
Everyone has their "lemon" of an idea every so often. This happened to be mine. :) Oh, well...
Regards.
Jacks Complete March 4th, 2005, 11:00 PM

But it isn't a bad idea at all.
If you did do a conversion, it might be better to use a different couple of rounds, but there is always the option of downloading
the 9mm Para/Luger to half the powder charge with a lighter bullet.
Ammoguide says:
9 x 18 Makarov - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=189
SPECIFICATIONS [not much for this cart on ammoguide]
Bullet Diameter:
.364 in.
Max Overall Length:
Rifling Twist:
Rifling Lands:
Case Capacity (est):
15 gr. water
NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight:
Muzzle Velocity:
Muzzle Energy:
"When Nikolai Federovich Makarov conceived his pistol, he ignored the specifications for a 7.62 or 9mm caliber, and built it
around a new cartridge, the 9x18 Makarov.
Some speculate that the 9x18 Makarov was simply an adaptation of the German pre-WWII 9mm Ultra. However, there are
important differences between the two. The 9mm Ultra is simply a lengthened version of the tapered 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP)
with a standard 9mm (.356") bullet. The 9x18 Makarov uses a nearly cylindrical case and 9.2 mm (.363"-.365") bullet. The
result is a cartridge that offers performance nearing the 9mm Parabellum in a simple blow-back pistol.
The 9x18 Makarov is neither a high accuracy cartridge, nor one with tremendous knock-down power. It is a medium
performance cartridge built for simplicity, reliability, and adequate stopping power in a service pistol.
- from http://www.makarovpistol.com/mak01.html"
9mm Luger (Parabellum) - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=3
SPECIFICATIONS
Bullet Diameter:
.356 in.
Max Overall Length:
1.169 in.
Rifling Twist:
1-in-10 in.
Rifling Lands:
6
Case Capacity (est):
16 gr. water
NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight:
124 gr.
Muzzle Velocity:
1110 f.p.s.
Muzzle Energy:
340 ft-lbs.
" The 9mm Parabellum was developed for the Luger autoloading pistol, which became the standard sidearm for both the
German Army and Navy. It's worldwide acceptance by militaries (including NATO) and law enforcement agencies is testimony to
the 9mm's effectiveness as a field round. Detailed historical info about the 9mm is available at http://
www.cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/
In 1955, when NATO adopted the 9mm as it's standard sidearm cartridge, the U.S. kept the M1911A1 .45 Automatic pistol in
service. In significant part, the decision was made based on the fact that decades of .45 ammunitions and pistols had been
stockpiled.
To the dismay of Colt Auto fans, in 1985 the U.S. retired the M1911A1 .45 ACP and adopted the Berreta 92 in 9mm. The
debate as to the wisdom of this change seems to have momentum to carry it well into the next century.
Being a smaller cartridge, an infantryman can carry more 9mm ammunition (or travel lighter). The handgun magazine alone,
in the Berreta holds 15, whereas the Colt tops at 7. Each pistol may have an additional round in the chamber.
Factory listings include a 115-gr. bullet exiting a 4" barrel at 1155 fps., with 340 ft-lbs. of energy."
Tribal March 5th, 2005, 05:37 AM

This is quite interesting, knowing that 9x18 PM is weaker than Luger, that is a worthy conversion... Stechkin pistol would be
even more beatiful and deadly artwork than now.
lowjack March 12th, 2005, 09:31 PM

dimensions.
Have a look at
That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably
the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.
Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied
with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

dimensions.
Have a look at

dimensions.
Have a look at
tomu March 13th, 2005, 02:17 PM

At first I was a bit confused, the cz 24 and cz 26 are old models of czech semi automatic pistols. A google search however
showed that the czech SMG's sa 24 and sa 26 are sold under the totally wrong designation of cz 24 and cz 26 in the USA.
Look at:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg46-e.htm
to find out more about these SMG's. The sa 23 and sa 25 are 9x19 mm luger.
Use only the mags which are build for the weapons, do some googleing and you will find suppliers of complete part kits with
mags. For example http://www.akparts.com/index.htm for a complete parts kit with mag but there are other places as well.
Same for the 7.62x25 mm Tokarev Ammo, it's widely availlable at different prices. Do a google search and you'll find many
suppliers.
For fun shooting with a SMG look for military surplus ammo it's cheaper, the czech made Sellier and Bellot ammo is of high
quality, the S&B brass is reloadable. For reloading data see the link in my previous post.

Look at:
suppliers.

Look at:
suppliers.
Killy December 28th, 2007, 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=tomu;70320]There is not that much difference in ballistic values between 7,62x25 TT and 9x19 mm (a.ka. 9mm
NATO, Luger, Parabelum).
QUOTE]
What a nonsense !
There is a great difference, the biggest is in penetration capabilities of 7.62x25mm which makes that round incapable for civil
or law enforcement usage, and could find its usage only in military.
To see the penetration power take look at this facts:
If you put 5 people in a row, between each people 4 meter distance and shoot one round at them from distance of 25 meters
between the chamber mouth and 1.st guy,
the bullet will pass through 4 people and wound the fifth one !
Cases are documentated in which somebody shot at someone with that round, the bullet went through him and only wounded
him and hit another guy in the head and killed him.
That is why this round is not good for police use.

sparkchaser January 3rd, 2008, 06:28 AM

I was imagining the use of a heavy caliber pistol round for an SMG one day and was looking for a good round to use (I was
thinking of .45, but that just seemed a little to blase' and cliche to have fun with). What I came across during this search
looked rather fun and cheap to buy the recoil spring and barrel for. Sorry for all those that won't be able to order this stuff
outside the U.S., but for those of us who are able, I present for your perusal the .460 Rowland;
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm
A .45 based cartridge with the punch of a .44 magnum? Sounds like a winner to me!
Charles Owlen Picket January 3rd, 2008, 09:55 AM

One of the more obscure reasons for the transition to newer cartridges from the 45 was that it had so much bulk. I had hoped
that the 10mm would rise to the occasion due in no small part to it's size within a staggered magazine. A hot loaded 10mm is
no small threat and the construction of an SMG for such a cartridge would be within existing barreled actions designed for the
40.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > Mini 14 goes Full AUTO! - Archive Thread
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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Oliver K
A new voice
Posts: 17
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 13, 2001 07:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was used to post often before this forum was shut down for a while so i guess im new here but i have ONE questionn I went to a site posted on one of the topics...and Read
that u can Cheaply (probably very Dangeroulsy) convert a Mini 14 to full auto by removing the second sear and spring and putting everything back together..
Does ne ONe know if this works realiably ..and more importantly Safely?
Thanks all for you time and help!!
AR-15 Man
Frequent Poster
Posts: 176
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HECK NO!!!! you are ruining a perfectly good semi rifle. The mini14 was never designed for full auto and should of never been. There is a full auto version but it suffers from
many problems. What you are talking about is a slam fire conversion. That is VERY dangerous. It could fire a bullet out of battery (which means you and your rifle are
screwed). That would kill you. Sorry no easy way to go about it. Guess you will just have to buy the books. A word of advice try out the gun with semi. You can do a lot more
damage with semi auto. This definitely belongs in the Improviesed weapon section because if you do this you have improvised a booby trap. Lets see drop the rifle somewhere
some idiot uses it then suddently BOOM!
Oliver K
A new voice
Posts: 17
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks...i was just wondering..cause its abvious i know nothing on full auto conversion...thanks
OH one more thing....ne one know if bulpup stocks are prohibited in Canada..i think i read something about it in the old FAC book
thanks
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 536
From: Dizneland
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 06:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Considered a TAC trigger? You can buy them kinda cheaply at gun shows from dealers.
I attached one to my Mini-14, however, mine is a slightly different design for some reason, so it doesnt fit the trigger guard properly, so no full auto.
------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullpup design is banned in Canada.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I was checking milarm.com , a guns&stuff
dealer based in Canada, I found the site also
a dealer of many firearm related books.
One of such is "Mini-14 Super System" of Paladin Press, suppose it have info you want.
stickfigure March 19th, 2003, 11:15 AM

Check out Ragnar's Action Encylcopedia, there are Blueprints to make the parts for the Mini-14 Full-Auto. AR-15 Man is right about the slam fire stuff, you can get the same
thing out of an SKS if you take out the firing pin and turn it around backwards. But I don't agree with the Ruger 556 slam, the A-team used them all the time and they Kicked
ASS! BA is the King of Improvised Weapons, he can build a tank out of anything! I pity tha Foo!
blacktalon April 29th, 2003, 01:40 AM

If you remove the second sear on a Mini 14, the hammer will then move freely with the bolt as long as the trigger is held down. As a round is stripped from the mag and
chambered, the hammer will then be against the firing pin... when the bold slams against the chamber, the bullet would be fired (if it worked at all) before the bolt was locked
into place. This is a bad for the shooter because you would then get a face full of hot gas as there would be a great deal of blowback. The extremely high chamber pressure
could probably do extensive damage to the cast receiver as well. The idea you want is just as the bolt locks into battery a trip is tripped and the hammer is then released... this
will allow the hammer to hit the firing pin with full force guaranteeing the bullet to fire and also allowing the bolt to be locked, making sure you live longer. The SKS is an easy
one to convert because they do all the hard work for you.
Magas May 1st, 2003, 01:37 PM

Ant i have the machine drawings for a full auto/ select fire Mini 14 if you want them :cool:
elvis May 1st, 2003, 03:56 PM

My dad's got one, he's giving it to me, coz the bolt is stuck. Needs cleaning, possible replacement. I would appreciate very much those plans... Are they for any model or the
new one, his is an old one. He said it fires full auto already, though, he said it's pre-ban, I think he already converted it, maybe I'll get my own just for the fun of doing it
myself.
blacktalon May 5th, 2003, 09:06 PM

I truly hope that you don't think that if a rifle is pre-ban that it can legally be full auto. :) The only difference in a Pre/Post ban mini 14, is that on a pre ban model, if you have
a detachable mag, bayonet lug, flash hider and a pistol grip you won't go to jail. On a post ban rifle you are only allowed to have 2 of the devil features. (bayonet lug, flash
hider, pistol grip, detachable mag, or a grenade launcher.) Since most all mini 14's have detachable mags, you can only have one other feature to remain legal. :D
One other thing you should think about... a .223 burping 30rds down range is very loud. If you are actually from Flordia, where could you fire it without alarming old people??
Mmanwitgun88 May 6th, 2003, 12:29 AM

blacktalon, fully auto guns can have whatever features they damn well please. The assualt weapon ban only applies to semi automatic guns manufactured after '94. Full autos
are class 3's which are in their own world.
~Dave
elvis May 6th, 2003, 04:44 PM

There is a range on old 441, they closed it down some three months ago, and now I can't go anywhere :( It does have a detachable magazine and a bayonet lug, but none of
the others. Also equipped is a shell catcher. I have to go, I'll pick up tomorrow. And thanks, manwitgun. I appreciate you putting him in his place. I'll shut up now.
blacktalon May 7th, 2003, 11:49 PM

Put me in my place? Whatever. :rolleyes: Yes, if the gun were a registered class 3, then it would be legal with all the goodies. It isn't though, so there is no point in talking
about it dumbass. If his father is "giving" it to him it is not a class 3 firearm because they must be transferred by a class 3 dealer to a person over the age of 21 with a clean
criminal record. (I doubt he is 21) Also, if he is going to convert it to full auto (why else would he want the conversion plans?) there is absolutely no way that it can be class 3.
The BATF hasn't accepted requests for full auto conversions since the 80's, thus all transferable machineguns are pre ban. :rolleyes: I have experience with legal machineguns
and BATF laws. Thanks for the lecture.
Mmanwitgun88 May 8th, 2003, 12:09 AM

He said it his dad said it was already converted, maybe it was converted in '86 before the MG ban was put into effect. Why even question this shit, are you going to be asking
everyone in the chemical section as to whether they have a explosives manufacturing permit. When people talk about things here just assume its legal. I'm not taking sides,
I'm just saying why bother discussing these legal issues.
~Dave
blacktalon May 8th, 2003, 03:10 AM

Look DAVE, Old Elvis there posted a reply that sounded to me as though he believed it would be legal to convert a Mini 14 to full auto because it was Pre ban. I never
questioned him. I just passed a little good info on laws his way and then you began telling me all about the mystical world of class 3 transferables. Give me a break. Anyway:
"He said it fires full auto already, though, he said it's pre-ban, I think he already converted it, maybe I'll get my own just for the fun of doing it myself."
I replied to his message simply to inform him that if he was under that impression it was in error. I only did this to try to keep him from inadvertently doing something stupid. It
sounds like he is thinking of taking this weapon to a gun range after all. That is an excellent idea now isn't it? Lets go someplace where there are lots of people around to
watch me fire my illegally converted automatic weapon. Why not just go try it out in front of the police station?
Whenever I have let rip at a range, it generally draws a crowd. I have also been asked to see my paperwork more than once by officers who were target practicing or just
screwing around.
"When people talk about things here just assume its legal" This thread is about converting a mini 14 to full auto by removing the second sear. That is not legal, just so you
know.
", maybe it was converted in '86 before the MG ban was put into effect" Even if, he still couldn't give it to him. If it was legally registered, there would be paperwork
connecting it to his father. (My dad's got one, he's giving it to me, coz the bolt is stuck) If you just gave away a registered machinegun the BATF would frown upon it. (And
you would go to jail)
zaibatsu May 8th, 2003, 12:02 PM

Stop this arguing now. It IS sensible to advise him on legal issues when you aren't quite sure if they know (sometimes it's dubious), but the best way to do this is through
email.
If you want to continue this argument take it to email, but I'll not allow it to continue in this thread.
stu460 September 27th, 2003, 04:11 AM

hi all,is there any way of telling if a mini 14 has already been converted to full auto,im not interested in doing it,just curious to know if its been done already before i test it,i
hope not..
nbk2000 September 27th, 2003, 02:27 PM

Uh...load a magazine and hold back the trigger? Duh! :rolleyes:
eviIoIive September 27th, 2003, 03:11 PM

Ok you can also wedge a paper clip between the sear and the reciever. I have tied this it worked fine and I am still alive with all body parts intact but I dont plan on doing it
again. If you want a rifle that can easily and safely be converted to full auto buy a M1 carbine, its designed to be full auto.the design wih the rotating bolt does not allow the
hammer to hit the firig pin untill the bolt is in the forward locked position. the mini14/30 full auto is not safe due to design.
DeviantSaint October 6th, 2003, 08:03 PM

Although FA weapons definately have a cool factor to them, in my experience an FA or even some burst weapons, are not necessary. This is my opinion about rifles. The m16
family in particular. The weapon climbs way too much to be useful on full auto. The current U.S. m4 has full auto setting rather than the 3rd burst setting that the 16a2 has.
Firing either weapon I never was able to shoot very accurately in FA or in burst. FA is good for cover fire or with heavier weapons like SAW's, 60's, M2HB's, and 240B's. For a
rifle, well it's not nearly as useful as decent aim, a clear head, and single trigger pulls.
if you really need to put more than one round into him, then pull the trigger twice.
it's more about precision and tactics than overwhelming force. No matter how fearsome a weapon is, if you can't control it then it's not any use to you.
also think of the bystander issue in urban combat.
Just my two cents though.

I'm sure there are other ways to get a semi-auto ruger mini-14 to bark out fully automatic fire....But I do believe the full auto ruger wasnt called a mini-14 , but a ACC556's
(auto version of Mini14) ,and its reciever was built differently.
Paladin Press sells a book which I've studied and the suggested modifications are very similar that of the AC556, sans the three shot burst feature of the AC556. Modification
requires some drilling & tapping on the receiver (and even without the full auto parts installed, is easily recognized by a trained LEO as a converted firearm), fabrication of a
rocker arm (trip lever for link) and a few other parts.
Taken from :4V50 Gary /The firing line /fullauto forums.
Third_Rail February 22nd, 2005, 12:56 AM

There is a way to LEGALLY get a Mini-14 to double... one shot upon trigger pull, one shot upon release.
ATF letter and all.
MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED FIRST, of course. First, field-strip your Mini-14 per the instruction manual. With the trigger group in your hand, examine the area in the
photo below. Now, take a staple from a standard paper stapler. Bend or cut one leg until it falls off. Insert the staple so that the long part is underneath the secondary sear
circled in the photo below. Push the sear hard against the staple so that it crushes it down into its curved channel. Now, reassemble and dry-fire. While you continue to hold
down on the trigger, retract and release the slide. When you release the trigger, the hammer should fall again.
Now, of course, this isn't the best way to do it, but it's legal, cheap, and works. If you do it right, you can get the staple to stay in there pretty good and not fall out on a long
range session, so I've been told.
To address what was said about it's utility... I agree. You have to fire that second shot, no matter what. This is certainly not safe without a little mental fortitude, but it's not
intended to be safe, it's a down-and-dirty way of getting rapid fire and burning up ammo. Before anybody else jumps in and questions my sanity, I'm not suggesting that
anybody do this. It's dangerous and can cause injury or death if you aren't careful. I'm not going to assume any responsibility for anybody's stupid actions. DON'T DO IT. If you
are stupid enough to try it, you must make a mental shift in your thinking. When you pull the trigger, RELEASE IT. Duh. It's that simple. What you end up with is a 'double-tap'
every time. If you work the trigger the same way each time, you can probably get pretty good with it.
You must follow the simple procedure of RELEASING THE TRIGGER IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU FIRE
I'd post the picture but I have no webspace.
nbk2000 February 22nd, 2005, 07:07 PM

E-mail it to a mod and we'll handle it for you. :)
Third_Rail February 22nd, 2005, 07:43 PM

Thank you very much NBK, but I just realized that this forum allows attachments.
Hopefully this picture helps. I'll attach the letter from the ATF later on.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > Full auto 12 gauge shotgun -
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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 09:02 PM

Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just thinking...
Is it possible to use a simple blowback design, similar to the Sten, to build a full auto shotgun out of? I've been thinking
about this quite a bit and I haven't seen any problems yet (other than finding the mainspring...)
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've also wondered if anyone ever made a full auto shot gun.
Problems might be, insane recoil and needing a huge mag (physical size not capacity) to hold a decent amount of ammo.
Also, why do you need to hit someone more than once with a 12 bore? If you use large buckshot then each individual piece of
shot may be capable of killing someone, so you've already got multiple kills with one shot.
The purpose I imagine for full auto rifle/pistol is to put as much metal into the air as possible, as qucikly as possible. You're
already doing this with a shotgun.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whoa...my shoulder gets sore after shooting 100 rounds at regular intervals at the trap range....i couldnt imagine a full
auto..might even break your collarbone/scapula
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i imagine the shaking of the weapon due to the recoil severely disrupting your accuracy. you start shooting at the gorund after
6 shots in one second the gun would be facing the sky with a full auto 12...well probably not...just an exaggeration to prove
my point
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
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you would ned the tip of the barrel to be weighted and a weight distribution harness
Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
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Whoops, my bad. I forgot to mention that it'd be mounted like a turret. This is the reason for the full auto, it could cover a
helluva lot of territory or advancing troops.
I was also thinking about using a combination of 00 buckshot and slugs, so that it (them ) could also stop veichles.
I was thinking this because of cost of ammo, it's a bitch to find reasonable 50 cal shells, but 12 ga ammo isn't that steep.
[This message has been edited by Igenx (edited February 13, 2001).]
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can buy blowback semi auto shotties that could be converted to FA, check this link out: <a href="http://club.guns.ru/eng/
saiga12.htm" target="_blank">http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm</a>
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There have been some FA scattercanons, the USAS 12 (looks like an m16), and the CAWS (hk design) that used special
ammo. The striker12 might have been FA in special config I'm not sure. I think most semi-auto shoguns are blow back, the
remington 1100 can be converted to FA but I have no info on it. The saiga12 is a 12ga variant of the AK47, and is gas
operated, not sure about FA.
There are a number of pump shotguns without a disconnect (trigger can be held down) like the winchester 97 and mind fart 37
(can't remeber) also you can get a kit for the remington 870.
As far as a do it yourself kinda deal I don't see why not.
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sofaking the model "37" that you are refering to is a Ithaca model 37 "deerslayer".
I have two.. and yes you can just hold the trigger back, and keep pumping to fire.
Back to topic...
Ok.. there are actually a few full auto shotguns out there already.
I havn't been able to see any of the inner workings of them... but here's some links to get you drooling
The SEBURO "SPARTA" isn't exactly full auto, but three shot bursts are more practical anyhow.
Its at: <a href="http://members.spree.com/sip/d-roc/abupdate/handguns/shotguns.htm" target="_blank">http://
members.spree.com/sip/d-roc/abupdate/handguns/shotguns.htm</a>
The Franchi Prototype .410 Full-Auto Shotgun is at:

<a href="http://spas12.com/spas12not.htm" target="_blank">http://spas12.com/spas12not.htm</a>
And this sweet and VERY expensive one, the PANCOR JACKHAMMER MK 3 A1 12 Gauge - 10 shot rotary magazine Select Fire
Machine Gun is at:
<a href="http://www.att-tactical.com/Pancor.html" target="_blank">http://www.att-tactical.com/Pancor.html</a>
Those are just a few that i have looked at... but i'm sure there are more.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read that sten-type blowback in a SA shotgun is a bad idea due to the higher pressures involved. It says so in Bill
Holmes's gun design book.
Brainmonkey
A new voice
Posts: 37
From: Derry, N. Ireland
Registered: JAN 2001
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hey i took a look at that Pancor, that is one sweet bit of machinery, it almost looks like it Belongs on BWS site. IF it was a bit
cheaper, that wouold be a nice piece to go out with, not too many folks would mess with you after looking at it, well thats my
say on it, if i had one i wouldnt be here, id be out shootin it, 12ga ammo is dirt cheap
Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the images from the Pancor, courtesy of the US Patient office. <a href="http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/
US04709617__" target="_blank">http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04709617__</a>
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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Problem with the fa and select fire shotguns is that they are kind of exotic and expensive.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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Ithaca 37 yes that's it thanks that was driving me nuts.
The Jackhammer is real nice gun that I used in fallout2.
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From:
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resoil absorbing stocks would be useful on a full auto shotgun.
they use a sring to absorb recoil,
apparently a shotgun would feel like a .22, with a well made stock
------------------
angelo's place
have a good link? add it here
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not say it would feel like a 22 it would feel like a medium sized rifle caliber there would be sugnifigant muzzle lift too!
would a muzzle break wor on a shotgun?
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
Registered: OCT 2000
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First thing i wanna make auto when i can get parts, is a mortar. Im thinking 60-70 rounds a min. That would be impressive.
And with the shotgun, wouldnt the barrel be glowing red. You would need to use the plans for the vickars watercooled machine
gun.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Why would ten rounds from a shotgun heat the barrel more than 100 rifle rounds???
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shotgun shells are actually relatively cool compared to rifle rounds. The powders burn much quicker and less volume is used.
The barrels being thinner and larger also have a greater surface area. Rifles use much larger volumes of slow burning powders
and have thick barrels. But guns made to shoot full auto typically are always fitted with chrome lined barrels to help handle the
heat and abuse. Shotguns do deal with higher pressure spikes, so that might impede performance/safety, as noted by Bitter.
Shotguns don't generally have muzzle breaks, but they can be ported. Porting doesn't do so much to significanly reduce recoil,
but muzzle rise is reduced quite a bit.
Hmmm wonder if a spring behind the bolt on an Ithaca 37 could somehow make it full auto. I have a 37 Featherweight with a
poly choke. It's too nice to screw around with, sorry.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's some information Will emailed to me to post, he wants to give something back to theforum at which he lurks:
"I also added a picture of a revolver shotgun,

it is not realy full auto although it shoots as fast as an auto if needed it is based on "fanning shooting" like what you see in
the old cowboy movies you hold the trigger in and with the other hand you pull back the hammer as fast as possible the firing
rate in this way is high almost as high as auto firing. only these people made it in an other way there is not trigger only the
front grip is pushed back and forth as fast as possible the rod on the top pushing back the hammer
and rotating the cilinder. I know it is not full auto but I think that is someone has good! materials(higher quality steelfor
instance from old car and motor parts) and some tools he can make one."
(I've made the pictures links because they are physically too big to fit on this page - Anthony)
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/
shotgun1.jpg</a>
shotgun2.jpg</a>
shotgun3.jpg</a>
shotgun4.jpg</a>
Will also mentions having had his ports scanned on several occassions when on this forum, is this just a member messing
about or is theforum being monitored?
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting from 'Home workshop prototype firearms' by Bill Holmes :
'It should be noted that 'straight blowback' is practical only in firearms chambered for low or medium pressure cartridges,
mostly pistol cartridges of low to medium power. The reason for this is that the breech of such guns are not locked at the
moment of firing. Only the weight of the breech block usually combined with the forward pressure from the springs keeps the
action closed at the instant of firing. Also, since the pressure generated by burning powder is exerted in all directions, it
pushes the cartridge case walls outward against the chamber as well as the head, or base portion of the case to the rear
against the breechblock and out of the chamber with the same amount of force applied to the base of the bullet to push it up
the bore. Therefore, the bolt, or breechblock must be of sufficient weight to remain closed until the bullet is well up or out of
the bore and the pressure has diminished significantly. If it opens too soon, it will either pull the head off the cartridge case,
since the walls grip the chamber case, or it will blow the case apart. Either case is extremely hazardous since it allows hot
gasses to escape from the breech end, sometimes accompanied by bits of metal from the cartridge case.'
Apparently applies to both open and closed bolt guns...
stickfigure March 19th, 2003, 08:51 AM

Here are a few FA shotguns that I can think of:
USAS-12
Siaga-12, 20, 410 Russian Military Only
AAI CAW
USAC FAS-12, FAS-173
HK CAW
S&W AS-2, AS-3
Pancor Mk3-A1 Full-Auto only
Remington 7188, A1, A2, Mk. 1-6, Seal mods. used in Vietnam. There's a Combat Arms Mag with it in it. Also there's a book
by J.M. Ramos called Remington T100 Exotic Weapons System for converting a Rem. 1100. A quote from Duncan Long about
the 7188 "The selector for the 7188 replaced the safety at the rear of the trigger guard so that the user choice between safe,
semi-automatic, or full-automatic fire". A good book about Scatterguns is "Streetsweepers" by Duncan Long.
There were a lot of prototypes that were made during the late 70's and early 80's, and most of those programs were canceled.
But FA shotguns are out there, waiting to be reborn. For those who can be bothered.
blacktalon April 28th, 2003, 08:35 PM

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=573
Spudkilla April 28th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Full auto shotgun = Total crowd control. Just imagine, a 12 inch barrel, firing 12 gauge shot gun rounds full auto, right at a
large group of people. As effective, if not more so, than a suicide bomber. Since the shooter would be in control, people would
not be able to escape, and would be in constant danger, whereas, bomb explodes, it's over, they run.
I'm not much into the technical aspects of firearms, though I would like to be, so I can't contribute much there. I doubt full
auto would be a good thing on a shotgun though. After about 3 to 4 shots, your muzzle would probably be vertical, and you
wouldn't have a shoulder. I have shot several full-auto weapons, inluding the MP5. The kick is practically non-exisetent, but
after about 8 - 10 shots going full auto, you would literally be shooting the ceiling of the firing range. I did it once :(
Mmanwitgun88 April 29th, 2003, 01:17 AM

A FA shotgun would be out of ammo exremely quickly considering most semi autos only hold 3 or 4 rounds. Your best bet
would be to have some vehicle mounted version, preferably drum fed (I'm thinking like the anti aircraft dual M2 setup). Since
shotgun powder is so fast burning you would probably have to decrease the ROF. Theres no point in wasting all the ammo in 2
seconds. Sure FA is great, but theres a point where enough is enough.
~Dave
blacktalon April 29th, 2003, 01:29 AM

I have witnessed a couple of people firing FA shotguns and they actually don't have the muzzle rise that you would imagine.
They do get rocked around quite a bit though. (1 oz of lead 0-900fps in a millisecond...) FA shotguns are generally a pretty
bulky package which soaks up some of the kick, then the bolt spring system sokes up further more, but if you have a
suppressor, you are golden. I once saw a guy firing a FA Saiga 12 with a suppressor. Let me tell you, a suppressor is the
worlds greatest muzzle break! It was impressive how little he actually moved. Anyway, with the exception of about two
countries, if you make a machinegun in your home you are going to jail for a long time. Why not go on and slap a suppressor
on it too?
I_am_the_Black_one April 29th, 2003, 03:35 AM

Due to the nature of a full auto you would need a lage mag (as mentioned before). If its going to be mounted why not build
a belt fed shotty. You may be able to convert the belts of a m60. Due to the size you could use every second hole on the
belt, you would co nvert the o rings on them tho. Cut em off and replace with a 12g variant. I don t kno w if this will work its just
a idle idea that popped into my head
EDIT: You could even use cloth to link the shells like they did in the we old days:D
Mmanwitgun88 April 29th, 2003, 04:21 AM

Black One, if you've ever operated a 60 then you would know the feeding problems that can occur with a belt fed. If you have
a drum holding the belt close to it (like on in the SAW) you'll be alright. Otherwise the angle of an unsupported belt can cause
feed issues. As for altering 60 links to hold a 12 ga, by making it long enough to fit a 12 ga it won't fit around it well enoug.
Think of the difference between 7.62 and a 12 ga. Of course I think a FA 12 ga is overly excessive. Anyone who thinks its
needed, shoot of a 6o you don't need a FA shotgun. Anyways 1 shot of 00 buckshot to someones gut it like blowing an entire
magazine into someone.
~Dave
HypersonicGamer April 29th, 2003, 11:27 AM

Converting a shotgun to a belt-fed automatic is very unconventional and has no possible use. If you plan on assaulting a
burglar, plan to get a new house, and if you want to shoot slugs at someone from far away, use a rifle or a proper assault
rifle/machine gun. Additionally, there would likely be feed and ejection problems.
It'd be a fun weapon to shoot if it could work flawlessly though. :D
Bitter April 29th, 2003, 01:42 PM

Imagine the weight of the ammo you would have to carry to feed it.
nbk2000 April 29th, 2003, 02:00 PM

A gatling gun with gravity fed hopper would be the easiest way to go, and could be electrically powered for variable firing rates.
:)
Imagine 1,000 RPM of 12 gauge into a crowd of muds! BWAHAHAHA!
HypersonicGamer April 29th, 2003, 07:28 PM

How can you imagine something that isn't even there? :p ;) :p
Well...I can see red and lots of it. :D
Anyone agree that Mr. Mini-Gun in Black Hawk Down should have been used more extensively?! (Yes, also concerning the
actual mission!)
Anthony April 29th, 2003, 07:45 PM

Nice to see you're putting more thought into your posts...
Yorki_pyro February 29th, 2004, 09:32 AM

For sheer simplicity you could just cut/file off the disconnector of a semi auto.
jackhammer February 29th, 2004, 06:27 PM

Finally, a post about my namesake. Originally, the jackhammer was going to be a fully automatic twelve guage which could be
emptied in between 2 and 3 seconds. It could fire flachettes, buckshot, slugs, grenades, gas, and an assortmant of other
things. Also, the ammo cassette could be used as an anti-personnell mine. As far as I know, however, this gun is still only
floating around as a prototype. As for the HK and Olin Close Assault Weapons Systems, new work was done to make the brass
shells, and they had shot capable of puncturing steel at 150 yards, which isn't shabby for a shotgun. However, this project was
also ended. Fully automatic shotguns just haven't been very popular. I don't even see the ol' USAS 12 with a 10 round clip and
20 round drum around as much (of course, I'm not serving anymore, but there are still gun shows). Ranger code, when the
going gets tough, the tough go cyclic.
MP5Guy March 1st, 2004, 02:01 AM

Due to the nature of a full auto you would need a lage mag (as mentioned before). If its going to be mounted why not build
a belt fed shotty. You may be able to convert the belts of a m60. Due to the size you could use every second hole on the
belt, you would co nvert the o rings on them tho. Cut em off and replace with a 12g variant. I don t kno w if this will work its just
a idle idea that popped into my head
EDIT: You could even use cloth to link the shells like they did in the we old days:D
Tell Me One More Time How Your Going To Convert These M60 Links Exactly???
MP
http://www.hunt101.com/img/110473.jpg
Yorki_pyro March 1st, 2004, 12:21 PM

I'd say it is immpossible to fit a 12 gauge shell into an M60 link with any sort of modification you could do at home, what
about a .410 shotgun though, i dont have the pleasure of owning one so maybe someone could measure the O/D of a .410
shell.
JoeJablomy March 1st, 2004, 03:48 PM

I guess it's beyond practical means to try to build a reliable auto shotgun from scratch, but nevertheless I think I might be
able to clarify some of the theory involved in this discussion.
From what I understand, shotguns shoot heavy projectiles with probably moderate sectional densities. They accelerate these to
low velocities using small quantities of fast burning powder, which means that the powder charge has a modest (but not really
that big, due to the small charge) burning surface area. If I remember right, a 12GA round has about halt the powder of a
.223 round, but of course it's much finer, so I'd bet their total burn rates are pretty similar, except that the 12GA charge would
burn much faster at a given pressure than the .223 charge.
There are now two differences that you should keep in mind:
1. I can't make an exact calculation, but the 12GA charge pushes on an area about 12 times as big as the .223, and also fills
a volume 12 times bigger with gas.
2. The 12GA therefore has a much lower pressure because while it may be pushing something with a higher sectional density
(SD obviously determines how fast a projectile will accelerate for a given pressure), the gas is expanding much faster to fill the
bore, and since the pressure is lower, the total burn rate is lower, and the equilibrium pressure and burn rate are way lower
than in a rifle round. You need a fast powder to keep it this high, if you use so little.
Overall, the round has a low pressure (hence the plastic case walls) but a high impulse because of the really heavy projectile.
This also affects recoil because the proportion of the gun's recoil energy to the projectile's muzzle energy is the same as the
mass ratio between the two. This also applies to the bolt of a blowback gun.
If the impulse of the round is 1 oz @900 fps=900 oz.f/s, then you would need a 180 oz breech block if you wanted 5 fps. I
think about 15 fps is supposed to be good, so you could make do with a 60 oz block, which means a 3.75 lbs block moving
back and forth really fast inside your gun. For the turret mounted gun, that might even be practical, but be warned: that
number sounds way the hell too low to me. Don't try this at home.
I have a few ideas for long recoil actions, and they might be best suited for this. A long recoil action should help dampen the
reciol and keep the ROF down.
Finally, there's converting a saiga or similar. For a turret mounted or similar gun, you could try just using a "bolt locked"
sensor to trip a solenoid on the trigger. The sensor might just be a contact that touches the charging handle or the bolt carrier
when it comes all the way forward, or perhaps a bit sooner to compensate for the solenoid delay time. The biggest problem I
see with this is that I really doubt a saiga can stand up to very much FA fire.
Yorki_pyro March 1st, 2004, 05:46 PM

could use every second hole on the belt
Another reason why M60 belt would not work, the M60 uses a disintegrating link belt, so each round holds one link and the
individual links are only connected by the bullet if you know what I mean, anyone who has seen a belt should do. so if you
used every second hole you'd have no belt at all!
blacktalon March 2nd, 2004, 12:54 PM

Yorki,
Just to point out, filing down, cuttin off or just removing the sear from an ak style weapon like the saiga will not result in full
auto fire. You would actully then have single shot weapon because the hammer will ride against the bolt after the origional
trigger pull, which will not have enough gusto to pop the primer. If you want fa, you need a sear trip and lever.
Yorki_pyro March 2nd, 2004, 12:59 PM

Ah right, sorry for the mistake. If this is true then how does this work on a semi automatic pistol?
MP5Guy March 2nd, 2004, 02:13 PM

The Hammer will indeed just follow the Bolt if one were to just file or eliminate the Disconnector..
But ANY Semi Auto Weapon can be redesigned to fire Full or Select Fire with the addition of an Auto Sear and machining of the
Bolt Carrier to trip said Auto Sear at the proper time of Bolt Lock Up. The Auto Sear will retain the Hammer until the Bolt has
reached Approx. 97% of it's foward motion to lock up at which time the Auto Sear is tripped by the Bolt Carrier.
Stories of Filing the Disconnector to produce a Full Auto Mode are many but Pure BS. Best you are going to achieve is the
occasional Double and any further endevor will generally produce an "Out Of Battery" Slam Fire that is going to ruin your day
not to mention the weapon.
MP
zaibatsu March 2nd, 2004, 02:47 PM

Some ideas on belt fed shotguns.
The main problem as I see it is the rim of the shotgun. Ok, this may not work for 12g, but a .410 shells have been made
from a .303 shell, blown out, so I'm thinking that it's pretty likely that the same can be done with a .308 shell. Seeing at
that's rimless, you'd have a lot less problems with a belt fed design.

I'm linking some 7.62 X 51 (.308) and I thought some may never have seen how it is done. Note the 2 Links on top of a box
of ammo in the pic. The one on the left is a M60 Link and the one on the right is an IZZY 1919 Link. These are for a
Registered 1919 Machinegun.
MP

Some ideas on belt fed shotguns.
The main problem as I see it is the rim of the shotgun. Ok, this may not work for 12g, but a .410 shells have been made
from a .303 shell, blown out, so I'm thinking that it's pretty likely that the same can be done with a .308 shell. Seeing at
that's rimless, you'd have a lot less problems with a belt fed design.
You will find that a .45 Long Colt (.45LC) and a 410 ga. are almost identical in diameter. Infact Thompson Center offers a
.45LC/410 Combo Barrel for their Contender and Super Contender Handgun. The rim would be the shortcoming as you state in
that a Deep Claw Type Extractor could not be employed due to rim of the cartridge meeting the cartridge wall at 90 degrees.
I would think that one could work up loads using 30-06 brass that had been cut at the shoulder or by completely expanding
the shoulder and neck since it has the same rim and wall deminsions of the .45 ACP whose bullet
has the same .451" diameter as the .45 LC. This round could then be loaded in M60 or 1919 Links. At this point the Deep
Claw Extractor could be used.
Alot of work though for such a Mousey Load of shot you must agree.
MP
Jacks Complete March 3rd, 2004, 04:48 PM

So the agreement is that you can't actually use a standard shell for a belt feed.
How about if we went up a notch, and tried something more like a mini-gun? The rims would then be an advantage, as the
breech blocks could not fail to extract, and they would have plenty to hold. The higher mass of the gun would also aid
controllability.
Yes, I would suggest a mount for it!
Going the other way, how about trying something like a wad over the powder of whatever you are shooting, and mid-size shot?
In something like a .45 or .44, you could have a sort of duplex or triplex round, or some shot, with card over that. (There
might be an issue with the rifling, though - might need a driving band that freely rotates to stop the shot coming out
sideways)
MP5Guy March 3rd, 2004, 07:03 PM

You still have a very small amount of shot to push. A wad over a modest charge of say Unique or HP38 pushing maybe 3 00
Buck Pellets at .330" or 3 000 Buck pellets at .360" might be fesible for a Duplex Load.
MP
zaibatsu March 3rd, 2004, 09:26 PM

I've got a PDF somewhere on my other computer about loading .45ACP up as shot cartridges. The fact that people use these
to kill snakes worries me a little, but it seems pertinent so I'll see what I can do and try and get it.
spat October 6th, 2004, 02:05 AM

I know that a 12 gauge round is about the same diameter as a .50BMG cartridge, maybe something could be done w/ 50
links.
I was toying with the idea of making a battery powered belt feed mechanism that would basically strip the rounds from the belt
and stick 'em in the gun that way. It wouldn't be anywhere as elegant as using the power from the last round to fire, but it
would be much easier to design. Plus, the paintball crowd has been using seperate battery power to feed rounds for a long
time, and they have to have millions (if not billions) of rounds through seperate electrical feed devices.
Anthony October 6th, 2004, 03:25 PM
The only battery powered feed I've seen on a paintball gun was a sort-of rotating disc that assisted the gravity feed from the
hopper to the gun.
Paintball guns are rather different from most firearms in two ways: one, the "round" is spherical, and so very easy to feed.
Secondly, There is no cartridge left behind after the round is fired, so you also need an extraction and ejection stage.
So IMO, it's a bit more complex.
heaton3805 October 8th, 2004, 02:30 AM

First off: MP5Guy "Stories of Filing the Disconnector to produce a Full Auto Mode are many but Pure BS."......No offense, but
apparently you've never tried fitting a new disconnector on a .45 cal 1911...If you're not careful and do it right, the thing WILL
fire off a full mag faster than hell...It'll make the crap jump right out of you!!! I'll NEVER make that screwup again! :eek:
Second: Worry not!!! I've been working on a little project for the last year and a half. There's four actually: .410, 12ga, 7.62 X
39, and standard pistol sizes...
Abit of food for thought...It's close to the BullPup design with a shorter stock that the buttstock actually rests against your
bicep (YES! I said against your bicep), and the ammo is fed similiarly to that of the old .22 Calico (100 rnd "swirling" rotory
mag, for the Calico) which went out of business years ago. It's kinda heavy at the moment, I'm trying to make it abit lighter,
but there's barely any lift at all (afew inches, depending on ammo), even at full auto. I wish I could upload some pics, but it's
not completely finished yet, and I don't have the patent on it yet...I expect it to be finished within the next 1-2 years, so just
sit tight. The next project will be trying to make a civilian version, though I don't think it'll quite as enjoyable as the military
versions... :(
CypherNinja October 22nd, 2004, 07:42 AM

I stumbled across this vid yesterday and thought I'd post the link......
Should serve as food for thought for a few people here, as it shows how shows how such weapons handle (one example
anyway). I'm not sure thats FA, but its definately rapid fire for a shotgun. :D
http://amishgeek.com/misc/vids/automaticshotgun.wmv
EDIT: Upon closer reexamination, that apears to definately be FA. :D What can I say? It was late the first time I saw it. ;)
Also, check out the folder its in if your in the mood for some funny stuff.......
nbk2000 October 22nd, 2004, 01:27 PM

FA shotgun looks fun. And he blew down the target with the cloud of shot. :)
Anthony October 22nd, 2004, 03:56 PM

Question:
The guy loads the second magazine (after the drum), pulls the bolt and squeezes the trigger, the gun fires once then twice,
but on the second shot there is a large flash at the ejection port. What's caused that? It doesn't occur on any other shot.
Cool toy though :)
Jacks Complete November 2nd, 2004, 09:09 PM

Excellent video!
Anyone know what the gun is? It is clear it has a bit to help support the weight of the magazine, which otherwise often causes
issues - it looks like some kind of rail that the mag slides up before locking in place - and I've not seen a design like that
before.
THAT Dude November 2nd, 2004, 10:47 PM

It look like a Franchi SPAS 15(from Italy)or USAS-12 (from South Korea),but the mags attach differently(maby it's a
prototype?).
This link will show you the above menchened guns.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh06-e.htm
O and 12 ga. = .72 cal. so good luck modifing those links.
savages_viper November 24th, 2004, 10:44 AM

the russians have developed the sagia 12 shotgun intoa full auto version theres a video of it on the internet somewhere with 2
shotguns fireing buckshot and they acualy move a van they were shooting at a foot or 2
Begste January 12th, 2005, 12:28 AM

There *is* a full auto conversion for the autoloading shotguns. But guess what, the rate of fire is like 400-450rpm. You can
pull the trigger that fast. I saw in another post that someone had the "Gephart productions" plans. One of the plans they sold
was the belt fed shotgun. But, It feeds from a CLOTH belt. If GP didnt use the same design, there *was* a belt fed shotgun
used in South africa. It was jeep mounted Browning A5. But would it be worth a jam for a measly 400rpm rate of fire?
Third_Rail January 23rd, 2005, 04:45 AM

I recently purchased a kit for making a crank-operated gatling gun in .45-70.
I'll be ditching the barrels, among other things, but using the crank assembly as is.
The plan is to buy 6 Mossberg 500a barrels, each 24" long, enlarge certain parts of the unbuilt feeding mechanism, and see if
I can make a working 12ga gatling gun.
Boy would that be fun...
festergrump January 24th, 2005, 08:36 AM

Third Rail,
Wow! That WOULD be a fun toy to play with! Where'd you find it, if you don't mind? Any chance you could attach some pics of
the kit and also maybe the schematics or assembly info (assuming the kit came with some instruction)? I'd be really
interested to have a peek...
I'll be ditching the barrels, among other things, but using the crank assembly as is.
Ever considered ditching the crank handle, too, and hooking it up to a starter motor and a 12 volt car battery or similar? This
could be VERY nice to play with, indeed! :)
Third_Rail January 26th, 2005, 01:26 AM

festergrump,
My camera is currently AWOL, but when I replace it I will gladly take pictures.
Ever considered ditching the crank handle, too, and hooking it up to a starter motor and a 12 volt car battery or similar? This
could be VERY nice to play with, indeed!
Quite, but that would be illegal. I think I'll just have to dream about that when I'm done with the work itself.
These (http://www.gatlingguns.net/) fellows used to sell the kit in .45-70, or so I'm told by the person I bought the kit from
"used" but never opened.

I got an idea about the gatling you wish to build, I think it would be a destruction device, i've never heard anyone would have
ever built anything like that, but if that can be done, it could only be mounted on a vehicle or on a heavy mount tripod...
Keep that in mind - make everything as strong as possible (that's a meatmaker after all)
12g in full auto - WOW!!! Don't forget about cooling, It's 12g after all...
I'll be hoping to hear and see of your masterpiece.
Good luck!!!

It's hand-cranked, so not full-auto.
It's not a DD, according to this ATF letter I have.
Time will tell on how it turns out, I've worked on it very little thus far.

Good luck, Be sure, you post it, when you have built it, i really hope you succeed! ;)
megolodon180 June 13th, 2005, 07:39 PM

If you were law enforcement (yea, right) or knew some one in law enforcment then you could get the Auto Assault 12 (http://
midamericarecreation.com/shotgun_pages/shotgun1_new.htm) (AA12). It's a premade full auto 12 guage. The only real
"problem" with it is that it is open bolt and as such is a little less accurate. But, hey shotguns aren't meant to be pinpoint
accurate. Another (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=623) page with more in formation
on the AA12. And one (http://defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741) more.
megolodon180 June 13th, 2005, 07:39 PM

If you were law enforcement (yea, right) or knew some one in law enforcment then you could get the Auto Assault 12 (http://
midamericarecreation.com/shotgun_pages/shotgun1_new.htm) (AA12). It's a premade full auto 12 guage. The only real
"problem" with it is that it is open bolt and as such is a little less accurate. But, hey shotguns aren't meant to be pinpoint
accurate. Another (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=623) page with more in formation
on the AA12. And one (http://defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741) more.
BeerWolf August 21st, 2006, 10:21 PM

At a gun show last year I saw someone who was making ammo for an obsolete shotgun by cutting .50 BMG at the neck, and
soldering on a rim.
I think you might be able to make your belt fed shotgun by cutting the .50 bmg brass, loading the same as a brass shotshell
and using the spotting rifle push thru links.
My $.02 YMMV.
-BW
BeerWolf September 1st, 2006, 08:23 PM

Here is a thread by some gents who convert .50bmg shells into what they call "12Ga From Hell".
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4e214c1cbf087f7e72c5777c478e09 7d&topic=79991.0
They turn down the rim, and thread on a 12 ga rim. I would suggest leaving the rim as stock .50bmg for your project.
-BW
teshilo September 4th, 2006, 02:04 PM

Conversion 0/50 machinegun shells to 12 ga shotgun used by V-C in Vietnam
More nice idea as create 12 ga portable recoiless machinegun (anti-crowd weapon) .As can compensate recoil?Use hydravlic
compensators or old principle used in recoiless gun ...
sparkchaser September 5th, 2006, 11:40 AM

I already tried to file down the sear on a Saiga (actually the safety when the lever is in a particular position) just for grins and
giggles, and it does result in a single shot configuration due to the hammer riding the bolt.
Looking at the bolt catch, though, it looks as though a full auto sear would be easy to make using the stock parts in a slightly
different configuration. Maybe some extra sheet steel and a bit of silver solder/welding?
5_seven September 12th, 2006, 08:47 PM

I'm new here, but to me, it seems that everyone has this obsession with the 12 gauge shells. A smaller guage would seem
much more practical in this case because:
a) shotguns spray a lot of lead, so if it's fully automatic, it doesn't really need to be a large gauge
b) the cost would be lower, and since it's a fully automatic weapon, that's a good thing
And
c) less wear and tear on the weapon
Cobalt.45 September 15th, 2006, 01:43 PM

I'm new here, but to me, it seems that everyone has this obsession with the 12 gauge shells. A smaller gauge would seem
much more practical in this case because
Damn, and I was thinking if you were going to the trouble of doing an auto shotgun, why not go with a 10 Ga.?
I'd bet that the 12 would hold an edge over the other gauges in ammo cost, though.
BeerWolf September 15th, 2006, 04:40 PM

If you're building it to take a stock shell, then 12 gauge is by far the cheapest in my neck of the woods.
If you're building it from some existing shell, than you're stuck with very few pellets if you go with the .30 caliber shell casings.
Looks to me like anything larger than .50BMG would make for a very cumbersome feed system.
I don't see any point to a FA Sagia, other than fun. 5-8 shot magazine is gone in a short burst or two.
A drum, beltfed, or perhaps a hopper feed similar to Japanese LMG's from WW2 seem like the way to go for me.
Shotguns are too short ranged a weapon for a heavy fixed weapons mount.
I'm seeing a "super LMG" for close range forest or urban work.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Autom atic and Assault W e a p o n s > AN-94 is pretty good
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View Full Version : AN-94 is pretty good
HMTD Factory A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 11: 26 PM

Anyone read about the gun AN-94 (Avtomat Nikonova-9 4)? It defeated the latest competing AK de sign and was adopted by
R u s s i a i n 1 9 9 4 . R u m or says that Kalashnikov used all
his political influences to favor his rifle but he still didn't win.
M a n t h a t ' s o n e d e s i g n h a r d t o beat(or com e up with). It works on a principle called "blowback shifted pulse". At full-auto
m ode It will fire the first three shot at 1800rpm , after that at 600rpm. Th e trigger resets itself so the shooter can keep
squeezing out 1800rpm fast bursts.
Just to arouse your interest : the funny rifle has a m eta l cable and a pulley(sort of) in it; the barre l withdraw into the gun when
fired; the tube underneath the barrel is NOT a gas tube.
I think the Russian design is innovative and more accurate, plus the higher hit probability, without depending on electronics.
Anyone interested can read about this gun in

"SPECIAL W EAPONS for m ilitary & police" of fall 2001.
AR-15 Man A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 11: 48 PM

Yea that rifle has lots of prom ise but I think Russia intends it for export. They do n't have the cash to m a k e t h e c h a nge. Also
this gun in the 2rd burst m ode will kee p the 2 bullets alm ost in the sam e s p o t b e cause both are fired before the shooter can
feel the recoil. It has a reporicating barrel that adds in this appa rently. W ell if I ever go to the Machine gun shoot in Knob
C r e e k , K e n t u c k y m a y b e s o m e Class III manufaturer will have one he will let me try.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > Semi auto Sten Mk III
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View Full Version : Semi auto Sten Mk III

Just for info on a new kit mod that should be coming out soon.
http://stenguns.tripod.com/id13.html

happy day! happy day!
My kit has just arrived! $39.95 for the kit plus $33 in shipping....ouch! I shoulda ordered 2 kits..... ah well, its just money. I'll oreder another kit next month.
Still no news on the semi auto conversion. The BATF is not known for speediness, except when you've been bad..., so it wil probably take 3-6 months before any new s.
festergrump January 29th, 2005, 08:16 PM

Is it a torch cut kit or cut into 4 pieces with a bandsaw ? New BATF induced law requires torchcut kits these days, but if the kits w ere held up in customs, some bandsaw kits are
still trickling thru. These w ould be the ones to get as the torched kits are scrap.
I've heard thru a source that Tapco has an incoming shipment of just such BSC kits in the very near future.
I have a few questions:
1. How does the barrel bore look? Clean? Pitted?

2. Is the magazine well obliterated beyond a welders help?
3. Do you dream of making your "dummy gun" an exact replica or opt for a vertical magazine alignment model? (I'm attaching a pic of two nice vertical mag remakes of the
sten, though bastardized, they look quite nice).
I've bid on a few bandsaw kits on Ebay before but dropped out of the auction when the kits hit $50. IMO they'd require more work than I'm willing to make a nice "replica".
I'm working on an AMD-65 "dummy gun" right now which has lots of work to be done and all the parts (less receiver) were intact and unharmed (the fire control group was
replaced w ith semi-auto parts, too). The receiver of a sten might be much easier than an AK clone, but the parts they send in the kits leave little to be desired, or so I am told.
Good luck to you... How about some close-up pics of the damage the BATF fucks require? A comrade would present better pics than a vendor, I assure, which is my reason for
asking.

Fester,
1. The bore looks nice. I ordered my kit thru w ww.interordnance.com, and they describe the kits as " Very good condition to Excellent" and I agree with that claim.
2. The magazine w ell is not obliterated. The cuts (all cuts)are made with a bandsaw and are pretty clean. Well... as clean as can be expected anyw ay. I mean they aren't
"gunsmith clean" but definitely better than "minimum wage monkey clean".
3. I'll go for the side feed.
The hardest part of this particular kit is :
1. paying the shipping. OUCH! that hurt. like I said Ishoulda bought 2 to get a break on the shipping....$33 a piece almost doubles the cost......
2. the barrel is left inside its particular section of the receiver. On a mark 3 this means w hacking off a bunch of blind rivets...... BUT try to find a mark 2 or 5 anywhere right
now....theres a mark 2 parts kit on auctionarms with a current bid of $300 and a "buy me now" option of $450.00
I'll deal w/ the rivets!
I'll dig out my camera later, but for now just picture this:
1. the tube is cut right behind the barrel trunion.
2. the mag well is cut off the main tube. it is intact and still functions
3. the stock is the "t" type and completely intact.
4. the trigger group is cut off the bottom of the tube. it is also intact and still functions. and still has the rear sight on it.
5. No magazine.
6. lots of cosmoline and metal shavings !!!! absolutely coated with the junk.
7. the mains spring, bolt, bolt handle, spring buffer?, and a small washer like cap round out the kit.
here is the interordnance link:

/ w w w .interordnance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code= INTERORDNANCE.com&Product_Code= SM3
and a pic....
http://ww w.interordnance.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/stenmkIII.JPG
http://ww w.interordnance.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/stenmkIII.JPG
honestly the kit I received is identical to the picture, I'll try and post my kit later but the only diff is that you'll get to see my sexy hands!!!

here is another site offering semi auto conversions
it is expensive but still cheaper than the BATF fine for an unlicensed full auto ;)
http://ww w.semiautosten.com/
TreverSlyFox February 2nd, 2005, 07:52 AM

The toughest part of a STEN MKIII or any STEN build is the "Bending" of the tube cuts for the "Mag well" and then welding the mag well in place without burning through the
tube sides. A TIG is the w ay to go if you have access to one. The Mag Well is the heart of the STEN, get it too high and the bolt will hit the magazine, too low and it w on't feed.
The STEN didn't have too good of a reliability reputation, but that was the fault of the Magazines. Keep the Mags VERY CLEAN and if you can find "New " springs for them,
replace the springs. Mags are cheap at under $10 for the 32 rounders and I saw 10 of them for $39.95 last year from TAPCO. It's also a good idea to only load 30 rounds in the
32 round mags as that was the SOP in the British SAS to help with the mag problems.
I'd love to play with a Full-Auto STEN but the $200 Tax Stamp and about $2500 for a Legal STEN is too high a price to pay for a Bullet Hose, and the cost of an illegal Full-Auto
if your caught isn't even w orth talking about. Guess I'll just stick with my SAR-1, M-39, and CETME.
EDIT: The last I saw at the YAHOO sten9mm group was the semiautosten.com build was going to be about $150 for the semi-auto parts. But that was about 6 months ago.
tdog49 February 3rd, 2005, 03:38 AM

semiautosten.com kits are now up to $269.95!!!
crazy huh?
Trevor, bending the maglips is tuff however the new semi conversion I mentioned has an alternative procedure. Some of the kits (like mine) have the magwell still attached to
a piece of tube. So you just cut the hole in your new tube, trim the magw ell and weld it on using the old feed lips. Tig is great however OxyAcetylene is just as controllable
(practically speaking anyw ay) and a whole lot cheaper.
Believe me ,as a father of 6, the last thing I w ant to do is play w/the BATF. My stens will stay semi auto. But as I have mentioned before, I am a gadget nerd and merely
ow ning a full auto bolt and sear is pretty cool and a liberty most of this world doesnt have.....

hello tdog49, do you know if interordenance ships outside USA an Canada?
Thanks
tdog49 February 15th, 2005, 11:40 PM

They ship anywhere its legal to import the particular item you want. They use FedEx exclusively so the shipping might hurt.......

They ship anywhere its legal to import the particular item you want. They use FedEx exclusively so the shipping might hurt.......
Maybe anywhere outside the USA, but as for CA.......We californians lost that freedom aroung the LAPD north hollywood bank shootout time.

Um.... Sten kits are $50, tops. Why w ould anyone pay almost $300? :confused:
tdog49 February 22nd, 2005, 11:03 PM

Mk 3 kits are running up to $99 plus shipping Highest price I have seen anyway.
Mk2 kits (w hich are more preferable as to initial build quality) are no longer available on the open market, I have seen these for $400 + on auctionarms.com
Mk5 kits are currently available for $150 + shipping (many consider thes the best quality...)
Third_Rail February 22nd, 2005, 11:17 PM

Crap, you aren't kidding... I w as looking at Sten prices just tw o months ago. Availability dropped off and prices increased almost by 100%!!
That's expensive enough that making a Sten isn't worth my time anymore.
tdog49 September 18th, 2005, 03:04 PM

well,
its been 7+ months so I thought I would update this...
I was really hopin to have a finished product to show you by now but, the kits are still in development and of course aw aiting BATF approval.
thats all for now....
THAT Dude February 27th, 2006, 02:56 PM

I bought three kits from http ://w ww.centerfiresystems.com/ for $100 a long time ago for barrels, two are still unopened if you would like to bye one.:o
festergrump February 27th, 2006, 07:09 PM

IIRC, trying to sell items here at RS is really frow ned upon, but I do know you'd have better luck selling those kits at http://www .akfiles.com in the Marketplace section. Often
kits besides AKMs will pop up for sale there. It's a "build-happy" community w ith an amazingly sized population... :cool:
[EDIT: What w ith the barrel ban here in the USA having gone into effect as of Jan 1, 2006 and kits w ith barrels already here and past customs drying up very quickly, you might
fetch a fair price...]
Third_Rail March 15th, 2006, 01:22 PM

festergrump, AFAIK the barrel ban was reversed.
festergrump March 15th, 2006, 06:54 PM

What??! Oh, I do hope you are right... Don't tease like this, that's cruel. Where did you hear? I'm quite sure I would have heard by now if that is true.
Everyone seems to be buying up all the kits already here and including barrels as if tommorrow is never gonna happen. They are buying up all the cheap Wolf ammo in 7.62 X
39 from overseas, too. It's been on backorder for some time now, supposedly because of the Iraqi tangle. 5.45 X39 is not to be had anywhere, either, and that's gone for good
I believe, if you live in the US and cannot "roll your own".
I've searched and can find nothing more on the subject. If you could provide a link to the barrel ban reversal...? (you'd be the first person in the world ever to cause me to
dance). :)
Third_Rail March 23rd, 2006, 11:27 AM

http://ww w.atf.gov/firearms/112205openletter.pdf
Small loophole, but it's there.
festergrump March 23rd, 2006, 03:23 PM

I see. While this would mean that Mosin Nagant, Lee Enfield rifles, several Mauser types, and few others would be allow ed to still be imported with barrels included due to their
"sporting" capabilities ---> Stens, Brens, AKMs, SKSs, Romak IIIs, RPKs, ect. would not be allowed w ith a barrel due to the fact that they are not readily convertable to a
"sporting" use (hunting).
So they're still taking away the barrels from the imported arms w hich "in their opinion" have no real 'use' to us everyday taxpayers.
Take note of the actions of the 'allowed' and the 'disallowed' rifles in question. Allowed imports are bolt action while disallowed are semiauto (most from full auto versions).
Allowed are mostly Curio and Relic classified arms, disallowed are recently manufactured or still in action battle rifles. Why can't we import these again? Oh yeah, our
government is afraid of civilians armed w ith anything remotely close to their own standard issue. I forgot. :mad:
Truth be know n, I think that the BATFE brass simply shit their britches when they realized all the imported kits w eren't being used for replacement parts for existing weapons,
but instead being refurbished into working NEW arms... Uh oh... that means no serial numbers or tracing capabilities...
Thanks for the info, though, Third Rail.
Now I gotta tell you: It's gonna be awefully hard to make me or anyone else "dance" w ith a bolt action... "JUMP, motherfucker!" just doesn't sound right! :rolleyes:
TreverSlyFox March 23rd, 2006, 05:18 PM

festergrump,
When I was searching for an AK kit the other day (picked up a Romainian AK-75 7.62x39 kit from AIM for $99) I saw several that were being advertised w ith U.S. made barrels.
The prices were about $20 heigher than those with the standard Russian/Romainian barrels so it looks like our importers are already compensating for the "Barrel Ban". It might
have been CIA, SOG, or J&G but I just don't remember because I spent the entire afternoon online looking around for the best deal. As I said I wound up at AIM which is where I
usually order from in the first place.
The Barrel Ban really won't effect how many w eapons/kits come into the country as our importers w ill just keep buying w hatever is legal to import and make w hatever parts
that aren't. Yea, it drives up the price a bit but so far a $20 increase in price doesn't seem that bad for a U.S. made barrel. The BATFE is a joke if they think they can stop us
from being armed. CIA alone imported over something like 450,000 FN-FALs several years ago when they w ere a hot item. Geesshhh w as I dumb for not buying several kits
when an FN-FAL metric kit was $99 at TAPCO, and they w ere good solid kits too.
There has to be over a 1,000,000 varients of the AK-47 in this country now and they'er still importing them and the same thing holds true for the SKS. Betw een the FN-FAL, AK-
47, AK-74, AK-75, AKM-63, AMD-65, YUGO M70B1, YUGO M-53, PSL, SVT-40, SSG-97, SKS, Veper, Saiga, BM-59, M1 Garand, M1A1, CETME, HK91, HK-G3, MG-34, MG-42, M-
1919, Sten, Uzi, PPSH, etc. and the varients of the AR-15/M-16 there must be over 10,000,000 semi-auto/full auto Military grade weapons in this country right now and more
comming in everyday.
Plus the Millions of rounds of Military surplus ammo for all these weapons. Just in my own case I own 16 weapons and well over 10,000 rounds of ammo for them. For my
CETME I've got 20 magazines and 4,000 rounds of Portugese and South African surplus 7.62x51 NATO. For my SAR-1, AK-47 I have 11 magazines and another 4,000 rounds of
ammo and a NORINCO SKS. Plus I own 2 Military bolt actions, a Finnish Mosin Nagant M-39 in 7.62x54R with 2,000 rounds and a Ishapore Enfield 2A1 in 7.62x51 NATO. Plus
Shotguns, pistol caliber Carbine, verious handguns in .357 mag, 9mm and 9x18mm and 2 good old Ruger 10/22s and compared to a w hole lot of people I know , I'm a light
weight when it comes to guns and ammo. Just in two Militia/Survival sites I belong too w e're talking over 30,000 registered members that ARE stocking Military weapons and
ammo and that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the lurkers there.
The BATFE has a long road to hoe to eliminate privately owned Military arms in this country.
festergrump March 23rd, 2006, 07:14 PM

Odd. I've yet to see even one importer who advertises a US made barrel with a kit and my "AKM parts" folder of bookmarked links is over 30 strong (not familiar with AIM). I
have, however, recently seen surplus Yugo and Romy barrels for sale individually for $60, but only on one site (centerfiresystems)
Maybe I am getting all worked up for nothing or entirely too soon, but the fact remains that this is another logical step in the whittling aw ay of your abilities to manufacture
firearms for our ow n private use. Once the barrels must be manufactured here in the USA (illegal to import) many regulations will follow as to the sale of said barrels, and it will
inevitably become an FFL item, thus further controlling the sale and tracking of possession of arms by private individuals.
So far, it is legal to manufacture a semi-automatic rifle on a receiver flat, bent metal blank or tube without registering it as a firearm (the BATFE recognizes the 'better than 80%
completed' metal receiver as a firearm regardless of it's addition to any other parts). It is legal to complete your own rifle for your own personal use without requiring any form
of serial number on the receiver. If you sell the rifle, according to current law , you must include a serial number on the receiver and transfer it legally through hardcopy
documentation.
Non-imported but USA manufactured firearms differ from this in the fact that they are already serialed and tracking documentation is available from it's moment of manufacture,
but the hard documentation is still required by law in regards to transfer. Replacement barrels for US manufactured rifles and pistols are currently an FFL item IIRC (please
correct me if I am wrong).
What's the next step, I ask you?
All USA made barrels will have a serial number on them and be an FFL item shortly.
I understand that it is ludicrous for the BATFE to think that stopping the import of barrels with kits is going to anything but put a slight dent in our ability to build working firearms
cheaply... But as it currently stands, if it's an imported rifle it must have no more than 10 imported parts and a barrel length of 16 inches or better, if a pistol it cannot now or be
"easily" (open for interpretation by BATFE) made to except a stock or have a front pistol grip, fire no more than one shot with each action of the trigger (one pull and release is
an action, no "deadman's" trigger), and is openly distinguished as an "assault" pistol if the magazine is NOT integral to the grip. Surely I forgot some, but at what point are all
these rules and classifications going to stop? When have w e gained any leniency from the feds? The federal laws regarding guns get more strict every day but w e don't see any
decrease in crime.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that w hile many might see me as paranoid in my thoughts, and currently things can still be "worked around" regarding gun laws, these
rights are dwindling at an increasing rate. Dwindling by availability, by compliance laws, by particular weapon status, and by ease of manufacture.
The Romanian kit you bought was a good purchase, I'm sure. $99 is a good price to pay for one. Take a look in 3 years and remember this thread because I truly fear that
you'll not see AKM kits go so cheaply on the market. The Sten is a prime example, as are the AMDs, the UZ1's, Galils, ect... Suomi rifles are cheap as dirt right now because it's
a difficult build with little or no following or instruction available.
Buy as many Romanian AKM kits as you can afford to buy ASAP, Trevor. That's my advice to everyone w ho ever wanted a Kalashnikov. You'll thank yourself for doing it in a
year or so.

Just bought a whole bunch of Suomi kits - the Sten Mk.3 kit I have is hacked to hell - the barrels are cut at the chamber, diagonally. Waste of $80, don't buy them from
Sportsman's Guide.
Speaking of the Mk.3, I need blueprints so I can make a reduced diameter tube and turn down the bolt and really get started on the SA rifle I want to make.
mike_fw190 April 7th, 2006, 09:18 AM

Just got my Sten MKIII kit in from "Sportsmans Guide" for $70. I think it looks great. It's "SA" marked and the metal and barrel look barely used. It is Saw cut instead of torch
cut. Plan on making a Semi Auto. Here's a pic of the kit.
http://ww w2.netdoor.com/~mmilner/stenmkIIIkitx.jpg
Third_Rail April 19th, 2006, 07:13 PM

My Sten was much like that, but imagine the diagonal cut near the barrel through the chamber instead. Trashed the kit, for me.
Yafmot May 21st, 2008, 07:00 AM

I know this is an old thread, but are AK receiver flats still available? Lots of barrels W/trunnion are around.
Hitech_Hillbilly May 22nd, 2008, 12:54 PM

Yes. Several places have them for various prices and stages of completion. Here are just a couple of examples:
http://ww w.akparts.com/index.htm
http://ww w.marshhawkarms.com/page2.html
(http://ww w.marshhawkarms.com/page2.html)
Plus site that lists how to build from those cut up kits (with videos):
http://ww w.ak-47.us/AK-Build.php
file May 22nd, 2008, 07:09 PM

As far as a semi-auto STEN build, there are tw o w ays they can be done. A hammer fired system like the one mentioned(which requires a lot of milling) and a striker fired
system like used in the one semiautosten produces. The striker system costs a lot more, but they are a lot simpler to build(just like building a F/A sten, but with a reduced ID
receiver and welding the selector in semi).
armchairsapper June 10th, 2008, 08:35 PM

Yafmot; I've bought many flats over the last few years and Ak Builder flats are the best I've used. http://ak-builder.com/
Since this is a sten thread here's some Sten build plans & prints.

Ran out of room on the last post.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > Belt fed 7.62x39 SMG
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Any ideas how could one make a belt fed SMG? I am just interested... How can that be made, it would surely increase bullet
capacity and with a 7.62x39mm it would rather be a mashinegun (just a little toy for self-defence, against armies).
festergrump March 5th, 2005, 03:41 PM

Here's the general idea of how they work:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun10.htm
I never was interested in making one, myself. A double stack magazine system seems by far easier to make, get to feed
properly, and from what I can guess: more reliable. They also can hold a good bit of ammo. Look into a weapon which can
accept a drum...
Third_Rail March 8th, 2005, 11:36 AM

Being where you are, it would be easier to obtain an AK magazine and go from there. A homemade rifle/subgun using that
would be a whole lot simpler than trying to build a belt-fed from scratch.


malzraa March 9th, 2005, 01:34 AM

Um, do you mean LMG, bacause I thought SMG's fired pistol ammunition? Maybe I am mistaken.
Why don't you just get/make drum magazines? They can hold 100+ rounds, and are less jam prone.



The distinction isn't between LMG and SMG like that, it is more to do with the size of the gun than the cartridge. An SMG is
supposed to be very small, so they tend to be built around smaller cartridges, like 9mm or 5.7x28. But you can't argue that
5.7x28 isn't what would traditionally be a rifle cartridge. And this is even more true of the tiny 4.7x30.
A belt-fed weapon is way cooler than a drum, and you can fire a thousand rounds or more. In fact, you can keep going until
the barrel melts off. Not the typical role for an SMG, but there you go.
However, wire it to one of these tanks http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/BAT2TA_TOYS.htm or even better, one of these http://
www.iwantoneofthose.com/ROODEF_TOYS.htm and you have a sentry gun or mobile kiling machine. In fact, I'm going to start
a new thread on just such a topic.


Tribal March 11th, 2005, 01:17 PM

There was SMG in 5.56mm - german manufacture (H&K) experimental... I think that an SMG is a gun for close quarters
firearm, just like shotgun (SMG-fast firing, compact) this isn't to shotgug, but SMG (shotgun is powerful, sometimes compact,
but mostly not)... You can alway's use water cooled barrels and could be fine to use an electrically cooled (with several
electrical fans) it would be simplier to build it this way, than making a minigun. Might make the barrels life longer, what do you
think?

think?

think?

I think that the H&K belt fed SMG was actually in .308, if memory serves. I'm going to look it up.
EDIT: I can't even find it now... maybe it was .223, I can't check. :o



Off the top of my head, I know that H&K did make a .223 version of some of the smaller SMGs.
Water cooled barrels and Peltier effect coolers are a bit of a faff. Peltiers aren't very powerful and need loads of current. I
would go for something like a phase change material, or just a cooling fan or heat sink. How many rounds can you fire at high
rates before the inside of the barrel gets far to hot, while the outside stays cool, and it melts or explodes anyway? You have to
slow the rate of fire to something reasonable, like two or three rounds a second, if you don't want to melt the entire gun after
a few hundred rounds of full auto, unless it was designed for that kind of abuse.


charger March 11th, 2005, 11:47 PM

Third Rail, I think the gun you are talking about is a version of the HK21, I read somewhere that only a couple of these were
ever made. It was made in 308, but i think there was a 223 version as well.



Listen, how could I make a gun that would shoot that slow, it would be really nessesary, becouse i don't want to pull the trigger
and realize, that the magazine is empty...
I've always admired the slow mashine guns, what you can shoot and shoot ...



Heavier bolt, delayed unlocking, etc. There are a number of ways to slow things down.



Unfortunately slowing down a full automatic weapon to such a slow rate of firing, especially a Machine Gun firing high powered
rifle ammo is not that simple.
Mechanical devices that considerably slow down machine guns make them bulky and awkward to handle.
Some SMG's (mind you they use pistol ammo) as the Astra 900 (Mauser C 96 look-a-like) and the some Stechkin pistols have
a mechanical device that slows the firing down from over a thousand to some hundred shots per minute. But these mechanical
devices aren't trivial and are always prone to damage.
One of the things soldiers learn is that full auto weapons are only burst fired. Only short consecutive burst are fired from a full
auto weapon and never ever is the whole belt or mag fired in one single burst. The military is very keen on firing discipline.
Anyway building a machine gun with or without belt-feed isn't trivial or can be achieved with common tools. One needs a
thorough understanding of metal working and engineering and a full equiped tool shop (e.g. lathe, milling machine, drill
press, complete with tools and jigs, heat treating furnace etc.) and proficient skills to use it as well.
A SMG like the STEN or the Luty can be build with simple tools, basic knowledge and average skills. It would be a good
beginners project to build one of these SMG's.
I found these two pics of a HK G3 showing a bulged barrel after 1.000 shots were fired full automatically through it, total shots
fired from that rifle were 81.200 during an endurance test.


MightyQuinn March 13th, 2005, 01:49 PM

The best way to slow down a full-auto is trigger control. Rely on the human to determine ROF (rate of fire.)
It's easy to consistently fire 2-3 round bursts using a full-auto. Very effective in countering muzzle rise as well.
Double-stack the mags to carny more ammo at the ready.


tiac03 March 13th, 2005, 05:58 PM

Cool site I stumbled upon a few days ago had some nice high quality videos of different weapons being fired. one was the
Shrike conversion for the ar-15. Upper reciever, heavier barrel, and a bolt. converted the Ar15 into a belt fed version.
The site is www.subgunvideos.com

The vids of the shrike system are here: http://www.subgunvideos.com/videos/Rob%20Silvers%20Videos/Shrike%20Videos/
The reason I posted this is because part one shows the weapon and actually shows nice high quality pics of the feeding
mechanism. Looks alot like the M249's, so it should help you out.
(second vid is for those who want to see someone firing some ammo through it... )
tiac03 March 13th, 2005, 05:58 PM


tiac03 March 13th, 2005, 05:58 PM



Hey, what RPM has "PA Luty" have? I think that they are really fast, becouse of the simplicity of bolt, but I dunno. Something
about 800 rpm?
And I'm thinking that a double stack magazine or a drum magazine would be more usable, First got to make a barrel for my
7.62x25mm SMG.
Hey, would it look like this? Being made from highest quality tool steel...

about 800 rpm?
7.62x25mm SMG.

about 800 rpm?
7.62x25mm SMG.

Here is a homemade beltfed 7.62x39. It is a mix of MG42, AK47, and other parts. http://www.gunco.net/forums/f50/mg47es-
belt-feed-37756/

It was a HK51B. Here's a pic of an HK21 & HK51B.
crazywhiteguy June 10th, 2008, 09:59 PM

You could take the expedient home made BPS SMG and make it fire from a hopper full of ammo. But firing from a belt is a
complex mechanism that wouldn't be worth the effort for a home made toy.
armchairsapper June 21st, 2008, 10:11 PM

You could take the expedient home made BPS SMG and make it fire from a hopper full of ammo. But firing from a belt is a
complex mechanism that wouldn't be worth the effort for a home made toy.
This particular one is not mine, however, I have made a few belt fed guns and know MANY people who have made their own.
The one in the pic is quite reliable & rugged. Hardly a toy. The feed tray & cover are from an MG42 which can be purchased for
about $50.
Why would I want make it fire from a hopper? It feeds great with links/belts! Guns that fire from a hopper are notoriously
unreliable; jamming frequently. Making a feed cover/tray would indeed be hard (about as hard as making a barrel). Which is
why homebuilders buy those parts.
paul88 June 26th, 2008, 12:30 AM

Instead of an actuating arm why not a "circle" that does that exact same thing but gets pulled by the backwards stroke of the
bolt, cutting down the weight and bulky ness?
armchairsapper June 27th, 2008, 03:56 AM

I'm not quite sure what you mean. The pic is of the top cover of my MG42 (the same feed cover as the belt fed in the previous
pic). The arrow points to the channel that the bolt travels in which is what causes the links to feed.
paul88 June 27th, 2008, 03:17 PM

Well doing some figuring and such a "wheel" wont work, But i do have another idea that is small and could be just as effective
(you could fit it in luty's MP) But i need a picture of the typical grabber deal. I keep forgetting the name of that part that
actuall grabs the links and pulls them through, if someone could get me a good picture of one that would be great.
Is it like a hook or somethen?
When i get a picture i can make a prototype and let yall know how it works
armchairsapper June 28th, 2008, 02:46 AM

The two pics are of the feed mechanism. The first shows the two "claws" before the they are actuated. The 2nd shows the claws
as they would be when feeding the next round. The one in the center, with the arrow, folds up to allow the next round to
progress forward. I hope this helps you with your design.
paul88 June 28th, 2008, 11:37 AM

it does thanks for the pics
Cutaway August 9th, 2008, 08:26 PM

A belt-fed 7.62x39mm "SMG" would not be a SMG because it would fire rifle rounds. It would be a belt fed carbine.
7.62x51mm NATO belt links will fit around .45ACP rounds which could make a belt-fed submachine gun:cool:
rudyak August 22nd, 2008, 06:02 PM

Pistol rounds might not provide enough 'oomph' to feed reliably.
I can't access the pictures as I don't have enough posts or something, but the HK51 is a short (8 inch) barreled rifle. Several
were belt feed. The muzzle flash was the size of a volkswagen, and drawfed the flash from a .50!
At one time or another, all HK rifles were offered in a beltfed, select fire version.
You can slow down the beltfed, rifle calibers by increasing the weight of the bolt, using a weaker spring, or by lengthening the
travel of the bolt.
Increasing the weight of the bolt is usually used in Submachine guns where size is an important consideration. Remember sub
guns fire a pistol round and usually fire from an open bolt using delayed primer ignition.
Legthening the distance that the bolt is required to travel is used in true machineguns firing a rifle cartrige. They usually fire
from an open bolt, but use a locked bolt for ignition. The bolt is at rest at the rear portion of it's travel to aid in cooling and
prevent cook-off rounds. problems arise with long travel when undercharged or weaker ammunition is used. The recoil might
be less than required for the sear to engage the bolt in it's resting or rear most position, there by causing a "run-a-way" gun.
Weaker springs can cause problems with feeding as there might not be enough force to strip a round from the belt and
reliably feed it into the chamber.
Hope this helps.
Wallybanger November 14th, 2008, 08:00 AM

No need to re-invent the wheel. The RPD is belt fed in 7.62x39 and has been around since the end of the second world war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPD_(weapon)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Autom atic and Assault W e a p o n s > Variable-rate Mach ine Gun
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Jetex Kid July 11th, 20 06, 01:1 9 PM

I wonder if a machine gun would go unnoticed if it had an accele rating rate of fire that mimicked the rhythm of a no isy,
acce lerating vehicle. Particularly if such a gun were fired from within a mo ving vehicle, nearby people m ight be forced to
c o n c l u d e t h a t t h e n o i s e w a s d ue to the vehicle, a s s u m ing they couldn t hear the bullets the m s e l v e s .
Rate-of-fire m ight be m ost easily controlled using electric prim e r s ( R e m ington Etronx) with a chip-controlled 100V source. Yo u
could program a shift- p o i n t , o r e v e n g o t h r o u g h t h e g e a r s , though the variable recoil would m a k e c o n t r o l m ore difficult
unle ss the gun were m o u n t e d .
An opposite illusion would be firecrackers explo ded electrically at an unvarying ten-per-second to sound like a m ach ine gun.
And if ten em pty cartridge cases were left near the scene, and the fireworks hidden, the illusion would be complete and the
p h a n t o m m a chine-gu nner a reality.
Jacks Complete July 11th, 20 06, 02:0 2 PM

Nice idea. Yo u can bu y "machinegun simulators" which are exactly your second idea. They come in three round burst fire, chain
gun 200 rounds and 30 round m agazine dump.
As for the electronic driver for a m achinegun, you will have a lot of trouble doing that, since electronic fire systems are
generally hard to do. However, a m ech anical version would be fa irly easy to do, with a PIC and a solenoid to release the bolt at
the right tim e, with th e catch sim ply holding the high R oF gun's bolt back , or, in a m o r e a d v a n c e d v e r s i o n , u s i n g t h e s o l e n o i d
to fire the regular cartridge.
In fact, you could do a version of the "hellfire" trigger conversion to do exactly wh at you are describing.
irish July 14th, 20 06, 12:1 6 AM

Although it's not a ba d i d e a I c a n ' t s e e a n y o n e m istaking any center-fire m achine gun for an engine, they are bloody loud, it's
possible at a fair distance from the shooting though I suppose.
Maybe a .22LR electric operated gatling with a variable speed motor and pre-program m e d controller m ay work?
JakeGallows July 18th, 20 06, 11:0 3 PM

R e g a r d i n g m atching the RoF to sound like an accelerating vehicle is certainly an interesting idea, though I'm not sure when
you would use it. Any car that is accelerating fast enough to generate an amount of noise that could m ask weapons fire would
likely draw attention anyway. Seem s like a suppressor would be the better option, and the n you needn't draw attention by
speeding away quite so rapidly. O r even better, utilize the matched R oF with a suppressed weapon. :)
W hat is the goal or use for the idea? I see it as either a m ethod for hiding the firing of many rounds into a building as a scare
tactic or a pe r s o n t o a s s a s s i n a t e t h e m . T h o u g h not without their merits it seem s as though there might be better ways to
acco mplish these tasks without getting caught.
The only problem I see with the vanishing machine gunner is the evidence left (or not left) behind. If you use fire-crackers in
their original form you will either have to rem ove the rem ainders or find a way to have the m d i s p o s e d o f . N o t t o m e n t i o n t h e
fact that I don't think they are loud enough. Presum ably the authorities will look into the case of m achine gun fire, and when
n o b u l l e t s a r e f o u n d ( I m e a n t h e a c t u a l l e a d c o m p o n e n t not the brass) or dam age caused they will likely figure out what
h a p p e n e d . I ' m s u r e i f t h e y d u g deep enough they would find powder in the wrong place and with the wrong patterns.
Certainly interesting ideas tho ugh.
a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 03:10 PM

Nice idea. As for the electronic driver for a machinegun, you will have a lot of trouble doing that, since electronic fire system s
are generally hard to do. However, a m echanical version would b e fairly easy to do, with a PIC a n d a s o l e n o i d t o r e l e a s e t h e
bolt at the right tim e, with the catch sim ply holding the high RoF gun's bolt back, or, in a m ore advanced version, using the
solenoid to fire the regular cartridge.
In fact, you could do a version of the "hellfire" trigger conversion to do exactly wh at you are describing.
Maybe a .22LR electric operated gatling with a variable speed motor and pre-program m e d controller m ay work?
Don't know a bout the U.K. and Oz, but here in the States it's perfectly legal to own a machine gun as long as you don't have a
f e l o n i o u s b a c k g r o u n d and you pay the required $200 fo r the tax stamp. However, it is illegal to attach an e lectrically controled
firing system to a weapon for the purpose of enhancing its rate of fire. (Excepting special circumstance, like a Quad-Mount
. 5 0 b m g ) S a m e g o e s f o r t h e G a t l i n g s t y l e g u n s a n d m ulti-burst adaptors. Hand crank is fine but po wered is a NoNo. Goes back
to that whole 1 round per 1 pull of the trigger thing.
Of course this was all being discussed hypothetically, wasn't it?? Surely nobody would cond one illeg al activity here.;)
486 May 17th, 2008, 05:53 PM

Rate-of-fire m ight be m ost easily controlled using electric prim e r s ( R e m ington Etronx) with a chip-controlled 100V source.
You could probably ju st use a pre-existing signal/power source [a wire sp liced into a spark plug wire], to m atch the rate of fire
to your engine's RPM. Then cut your m uffler off on your car and act like one of the "racecar driver" wannabes that are so
c o m m on now. The ex haust noise would cover u p the sound of firing.
file May 20th, 2008, 09:01 AM

I f I r e m e m ber right, there was a gun called the ZB-37 that functioned off of an engine's power take off. It was designed for
aircraft use, which in itself tends to cause the development of unique system s.
Due to it's design, you could attach a "hand crank" to som ething like tha t and have a perfectly legal gun, or just attach it rig ht
to an engine and power it that way. The engine revs determ ine the fire rate. No spring or locking m e c h a n i s m in it actually, just
a basic piston like system. Som eone with a lathe and m ill could probably create one adapted to such purposes very easily.
Hitech_Hillbilly May 20th, 2008, 10:48 AM

File is correct on the "hand crank" concept. Kits are m ade which will m ount two rifles (either Ruger 10-22, M1 carbine, or AK-
47's) and will fire them by pulling the trigger on each as you turn a hand crank. These are completely legal in the US (and
d o e s n o t r e q u i r e a t a x s t a m p) as long as you turn the crank by hand. If you hook up a motor, it would then becom e illegal,
however.
file May 20th, 2008, 03:53 PM

As far as the gearing on such a hand crank system , that's all up to the builder. I imagine on som ething with a high cyclic rate,
you could have quite the bullet hose without having to crank fast at all if you used a very fast gear ratio.
O n s o m e t h i n g like a ZB 37, you could have as fast a rate as you could possibly go, there is no rea l lim it except that the bullet
has to have finished leaving the barrel before you fire again.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Automatic and Assault Weapons > Does a Lighting Link work on AR variants...
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View Full Version : Does a Lighting Link work on AR variants...
Panzerfaust29a June 14th, 2007, 08:13 PM

For instance would a Lighting Link work on a Bushmaster? Which AR style rifle would it work in?
Panzerfaust29a June 15th, 2007, 12:00 AM

Update
hxxp://quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html they claim:
"To use an SWD Auto Disconnector with an AR-15s it is essential that there is at least an 1/8" clearance under the takedown pin post for a lightning link to work. All
Bushmaster, Sendra, Essential Arms, and some PWA preban lower receiver will work perfect without modification. Some early Colts such as pre-89 SP1 and Sporter II will also
work perfect without modification. Later Colts (post-90 to mid 90's) will also work perfect if the pinned-in sear block is removed.
Most Olympic Arms lower receivers may need internal filing to fit a DIAS or a lightning link. This is because they are not built to the same specifications as the early Colt or
bushmaster, and are too narrow by a few 100ths of an inch to fit a DIAS or link. Preban Eagle Arms lowers will fit a DIAS but not a link in Circuit's experience because it is
slightly too large internally to support the link and let it work.
Other lowers such as late-90's post ban Colts have unmachined web sear block and high shelf while Postban Eagle Arms, Armalite, ASA, and some PWA prebans and all PWA
postbans have a high shelf that will need to be milled out to allow a lightning link to work."
Charles Owlen Picket June 15th, 2007, 10:34 AM

Now if we could get a nice, neat drawing with scale and a proper list of OTC materials; designed to be finished out with commonly accessible tools.....we'd be in business!!! -
For entertainment purposes only, of course.
InfernoMDM June 16th, 2007, 05:05 AM

Most of the people I know says it messes up your weapon. Not to mention the standard AR, and even the M-4 doesn't have the older beefer bolt assembly. Many guys who
get full auto weapons will actually go out and purchase the older style A-2 (military grade/pre ban) bolt assemblies.
Also I am sure you read the above post so I wont repeat that part. I haven't tired one (there pretty much useless) so I can't be 100 sure.
LibertyOrDeath June 16th, 2007, 11:42 AM

Inferno:
Actually, I'm pretty sure the semi-auto and full-auto bolts are identical. The difference between the AR-15 and M16 is in the bolt carriers (and of course the fire control parts).
Panzerfaust:
Please be aware that in order to use a Lightning Link in your AR, it's not enough to simply have the LL fit in your lower.
For example, I have a standard Bushmaster AR that a LL would not work in without modification to the rifle. (I don't have a LL, but I can tell from diagrams I've seen.) The
issue is that you need to have a special kind of semi-auto bolt carrier. I don't have a picture handy at the moment, but essentially the rear-underside of the bolt carrier needs
to be machined back to the exact point that it will just engage the upright part of the LL when the bolt is closed.
At least one older AR model (the Colt SP-1, if I'm not mistaken) came with this kind of bolt carrier. But nowadays, the degree to which the rear-underside of the bolt carrier is
machined back from M16 specs seems to depend on the manufacturer.
I've never seen one that would work with a LL without further machining, and I imagine that machining the bolt carrier material is a bitch (though certainly not impossible). The
key is to know how much material to remove. I wish I could help in that regard.
A LL shouldn't mess up your AR if the LL is properly made and fits well in the rifle. However, there IS the reliability issue. I would certainly not trade my stone-cold reliable AR
that can easily shoot 6 rounds/sec (semi-auto) for one that can inaccurately spray bullets even more quickly but that's less reliable.
InfernoMDM July 4th, 2007, 11:38 PM

Sorry I meant bolt carriers, but generally its the whole system that most people replace as most of you know some wear and tear on a AR means parts don't work as well as
they use to.
synweap223 March 24th, 2008, 01:32 AM

Correct. Besides needing 1/8 inch under the takedown pin for it to reciprocate and function, the bolt carrier has to be of the original design so the cut will activate the trip plate
of the LL properly. If you have a newer style BC, then you will have to replace it or machine it to the old specs. Search quarterbores site and you'll find awesome descriptions
and photos detailing the differences.
Yafmot April 19th, 2008, 07:47 AM

It is with great regret that I must inform you all of the Passing of Mr. Tom Tellefson, one of the last of the original "ArmaLite Five" (Gene Stoner, George Sullivan, Chuck
Dorchester, L. James "Jim" Sullivan ((no relation)) and Mr. Tellefson). He was like a dad and a brother to me, so it'll take a long time to get over this one. He is survived by
his wife, Ruth, and one daughter, Toni Bagley.
His accomplishments were astounding. He designed the plastic furniture for all of the ArmaLite weapons, as well as most of the Stoner designs developed at Cadillac Gage and
Ares Armament Corp. He also worked in other areas of the weapon's designs, in addition to the development of the .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO round. And anybody can
build a custom rifle to fit one person, but it's quite another thing to design one that will feel comfortable in the hands of anyone from a 90 pound Montagnard to a 280 lb.
linebacker.
Ever check out the so-called "MItchell Stock" fo the Mini-14? It was originally designed by Tellefson for Laser Aiming Systems Inc. of Fountain Valley, CA. Primarily for law
enforcement use, anyone lucky enough to handle a Mini so-equipped has marveled at the way it fits the shooter. Length of pull, drop to comb, the "Beavertail" fore end,
everything fits so well it just makes you want to go out and kill something.
He Wasn't just about mass production, though. His custom rifles are prized among the true cognoscenti. He built them for Roy Weatherby, back in the '60s, and a couple for
Sam Cummings, founder of Interarms. An old school craftsman, his work harkened to the days before freefloating barrels or even glass bedding. The way he bedded the
barrels was to scoop out the fore end, almost a single layer of cells at a time. When he was done, you could take a cigarette paper and run the corner of it along the barrel and
it wouldn't dip in anywhere. What a touch! And his rifles hit. A .270 he built un a Mk. IV action would consistantly hit 1/4 MOA.
And as if that weren't enough, he was also one of the bedrock founders of the aerospace composites industry. He designed the first set of pultrusion dies in the US, as well as
the first practical collimator for the production of unidirectional graphite prepreg tape. He was the only guy I knew with an autoclave in his garage, and we made lots of parts in
it over the years.
He never did get a computer, which is a real pity; imagine what he could contribute to this forum.
I'll be monitoring this section from time to time, just to make sure the black rifle folklore doesn't get too full of shit. It's the least I owe him.
Joxer April 19th, 2008, 01:53 PM

I'll be monitoring this section from time to time, just to make sure the black rifle folklore doesn't get too full of shit. It's the least I owe him.
But I feel free to blame McNamara and his "Wizz Kids". They are the fucktards that said the M16 didnt need a cleaning kit, so naturally one was not supplied.
Yafmot April 20th, 2008, 08:22 AM

Yeah, and how about all of those Aircrew lost because of those meddlesome, cherry-picked target lists. How fuckin' arrogant can you get? Hell, he did as much to fill up the
Hanoi Hilton as any SAMs or AAA did!
The consensus among knowledgeable people was that McNamera was an incompetent fuckhead. This included the folks at ArmaLite, but they had to keep their mouths shut
since they were somewhat indebted to him for pushing their rifle through to production. And if he got it started, he could get it stopped.
As for full auto devices, in my innumerable conversations with Stoner, Tellefson and Jim Sullivan, any mention of such just brought on a groan and a roll of the eyes. They
considered the things to be a sick joke. They weren't reliable, causing weapons to stutter, short cycle, or maybe just keep running when the trigger was released. (Although
Tellefson once showed me how to stick a folded matchbook cover in the disconnector to make it go full auto, but that only worked for a few rounds, or maybe a couple of
mags at the most.)
Full auto is, for a civilian, probably more trouble than it's worth. The ammo budget, for one thing, can get out of hand. For another, you've got to go way out in the weeds to
shoot it, since most ranges don't allow it even if the thing is papered. People hear full auto fire and think "machine gun." They think machine gun and think "illegal." Being
good citizens, they call the cops, and pretty quickly you'vr got a lot of explaining to do. If you're illegal, and Ted Kennedy's secret gun police (spelled B-A-T-F) get involved,
you're looking at 10 years without parole ON EACH COUNT! That means posession as well as manufacturing, so there's 20 right there, and they're real good at thinking up other
shit to throw at you, like Tax Evasion, for failure to pay the transfer tax on a "machine gun."
And if you're ever at a gun show or shop and you meet someone who offers a bunch of money to convert a weapon, get the fuck out of there! The guy is almost certainly a
professional snitch for the gummint, and you're in the early stages of being set up. Here's how it works....
You're admiring a piece at the show, and you're overheard explaining that cash is tight. A guy approaches you and says he has a way to pick up a little extra cash. He has a
"customer" who wants a weapon or two converted. Usually it's an M-1 carbine they want made into select-fire M-2. Don't worry, he says, he'll show you where to drill the
holes and supply the necessary parts. If you ask why the hell he doesn't do it himself, he'll wave a wad of bills under your nose and offer up some shit like he doesn't have the
time, the tools, his wife won't let him etc.
You could use the cash, it looks easy enough, so you make the arrangements, and a couple of days later he shows up with TWO M-1s for conversion. Not to worry, he'll pay
double. Oh, and by the way, they've also got this .22 pistol they want silenced. It's okay, I'll show you how. The pistol is almost always a blowback design such as a Ruger
Mk.-1, or a Colt Woodsman, Browning Buckmark, Hi-Standard, you get the idea. This is because a fixed barrel is much easier to suppress.
So, he shows up one day with some parts, some drill bits and templates, a .22 pistol with the front sight milled off or otherwise removed, an adaptor that fits the barrel, some
automotive freeze plugs with holes drilled in the middle, and an Aluminum tube to fit the adaptor.
A week or so later, you call him up to tell him the work is done, and when he comes over, he brings the "customer" (usually looking like a biker or a gang banger). The
customer says he wants to test the stuff before he pays for it. The other guy says it's cool, he knows him well enough. And besides, you're not really out anything, since the
wepons, tools & materials were supplied.
So a few days later, the customer calls up, saying "Hey! That stuff worked great! We want some more! If you agree things will get worse. He says he's coming over to pay for
the work already done. When he gets there, he'll strike up a little small talk, for distraction, and then say that the money and the stuff is out in the car. You accompany him to
the car, and he reaches in and grabs a paper bag. He sticks his hand in and produces a .357, which is pointed at your pituitary gland. He Identifies himself as a Federal agent
and you, my friend, are fucked.
The next thing you know, your place is crawling with all kinds of cops, tearing your place apart. The snitch may have also left a submachine gun or sawed off shotgun for the
agents to "find."
So let's see... Two counts of manufacturing a "machine gun," two counts of posessing same, one count of posessing a silenced firearm, one count of manufacturing a silencer,
one count of manufacturing a silenced firearm (a separate beef), one count of engaging in a criminal enterprise (which is why they stuck you with TWO M-1s, to "prove" it was
not just a one-off gig).
And if you agreed to make some more during that taped phone conversation, you can add a biggie; conspiracy to run a criminal enterprise, which can be good for up to 30
years. If the informant left a sawed off, there's another posession count.
So, there's at least 70 years for the posession & manufacturing raps, 30 years for the "conspiracy," (that's 100 so far), and we haven't even gotten to the engagement in a
criminal enterprise, or the various tax evasion cherges that can be tacked onto the manufacturing charges. And don't forget that you transferred the weapons without paying
THAT tax.
Yeah, buddy, you're GOOD 'n fucked.
Of course, theres no sign of the snitch. As far as YOU know, he got busted too. But the feds are just keeping him out of the picture so you won't figure out that the weapons all
came from a BATF locker. The last he'll be heard from is when he testifies before a Federal Grand Jury, but you won't know that, because identities and testimony before them
are secret in criminal cases. He just collects his money and moves on to the next town. (The going rate per bust was $500 back in the '70s; it's probably double that now.)
So if you're ever approached by a stranger with a deal too good to be true, do the world a favor, and punch that motherfucker straight in the mouth!
Joxer May 4th, 2008, 10:58 AM

Yafmot said
...Full auto is, for a civilian, probably more trouble than it's worth. The ammo budget, for one thing, can get out of hand. For another, you've got to go way out in the weeds to
shoot it...
The only thing I would add is that accuracy goes out the window when firing full auto.
I have read articles written by those that have conducted experiments (I have never even held a FA firearm) that only the 1st round will be on target. Follow-up rounds can be
off by several feet, vertically and/or horizontally, depending on caliber, range, motion of target, etc. A person would do better shooting from the hip, blindfolded.
I personally don't want to lay down heavy and inaccurate fire, just to keep their heads down. I want to hit the damn target.
A SMG might be nice to have, because it is more controllable and used in short range fighting. But a rifle? Why bother?
Yafmot May 7th, 2008, 06:59 AM

Controllability is always an issue with full auto, as is inacurracy. One of the things used to improve both is the inline stock. This puts the bore centerline in a straight line with
the buttstock, & hence the shoulder. This, in turn, minimizes barrel climb during a burst and, to a somewhat lesser extent, semiauto fire.
Another bug is recoil. The heavier the bullet, the more felt recoil. AND the lighter the weapon, the more perceived recoil. Put the two together, as in a FAL, and you've got a
handful. On the other hand, take a light bullet, like a 5.56, and get a tact'ed-out 16 with a heavy barrel and every conceivable kind of sight, laser, flashlight, bipod, and
assorted other rail mounted geegaws on it, and if it weren't for the noise and muzzle flash you'd never know the thing went off.
There are internal issues, as well. The big one is the bolt carrier slamming back into the receiver (or buffer, in some cases). This creates a phenomenon where the felt pressure
on the buttstock starts out small & then spikes up as the various mechanical components find something solid to hit. I once saw a film of a test where a 16 was mounted on
some balsa blocks which, in turn, were mounted on roller skate wheels (this was before skateboards were big). The buttplate was placed snug up against a load cell mounted
on a fixture to hold everything still. When the weapon was fired the pressure ramped up slowly and slightly at first, and then abruptly spiked up to about 260Lbs peak. This was
in the days of paper strip recorders, when everybody watched the test, instead of the readout.
Back in the late '70s-early '80s, a designer friend of mine, Jim Sullivan (ArmaLite, Mini-14, M-77) was hired by the government of Singapore to design a light machine gun,
PLUS the plant to build them in. The result was the Ultimax U-100, still available from Chartered Industries of Singapore. It's chambered for 5.56, and features Sullivan's unique
Counterpoise recoil system, which eliminates the peak pressures which can throw off your aim.
It works by using a carefully designed recoil spring which doen't "bottom out" at the rear of its travel. Instead, it gradually slows and then cancels the momentum of the carrier
group before the spring is fully compressed, obviating the need for a buffer. So, instead of a series of 260 Lb jolts during a full auto burst, it gives a constant, 17 Lb push, which
is easier to manage. MUCH easier.
I was shown a videotape of a demo performed by a female Singaporean soldier who might've weighed 90 pounds soaking wet. Four targets were placed 25 feet apart at a
range of 100 yards. She loaded a drum into the weapon, cycled the bolt, RESTED IT ON HER CHIN (!), and proceeded to hose all four of those targets in a single, 100 round
burst, sinking all but a few into the centers. If she tried that with an M-60, or for that matter a 16, she'd have been in dire need of emergency mandibular surgery.
The shooting press, and all others who have fired it, have unanimously proclaimed it the all-out best LMG in the world today. Its only "drawback," if you could even call it that,
is the 450 RPM cyclic rate. But when you're putting all the metal on target, rather than just hosing down the neighborhood, it's not much of a concern and, in fact, keeps you
from wasting ammo.
The Army & Marine Corps could've had them, but that fucking JSSAP (Joint Service Small Arms Procurement) committee bit on that Belgian "Minimi," AKA M-249, AKA SAW.
That thing's just a scaledown of an older design, the M-240. They were familiar with it, and that was enough for them. The machine gunners say it's just great, but it's the only
LMG they've ever fired, and they just don't know any better.
Right now, MGI is making a recoil buffer for the -15/-16 that works on counterweights and does pretty much the same thing. I think they're making a gas piston system for
them too, plus some other goodies.
(Jesus! Aren't my posts getting long winded?)
njohnson1941 May 8th, 2008, 04:57 PM

Perhaps, but you exhibit a depth of knowledge not always found here.
Don't hold back, this is good stuff to share.
SOT
Joxer May 10th, 2008, 02:01 PM

I think they're making a gas piston system for them too
They are.
http://www.talonarms.com/talonarms/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=369&products_id=928&zenid=c23b547c233488d513bfe4bbae115dca
I'm interested in one, but I'll wait and see how they work out.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Autom atic and Assault W e a p o n s > 35 Machin e Gunners @ Night.
Tracers
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a3990918 April 3rd, 2008, 03:37 PM

A sh ort vid showing a mid-night live fire by 35 Gunners at Knob Creek...
http://m yspacetv.com /index.cfm ?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=28886453
Rbick April 8th, 2008, 12:35 PM

W O W .... Tha ts better than any fourth of July show I've ever seen! Hearin g protection anyone? :D
BlackFalcoN April 9th, 2008, 09:16 AM

Clicking the link didn't work fo r me;
copy paste:
http://m yspacetv.com /index.cfm ?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=28886453
a3990918 April 9th, 2008, 10:17 PM

Clicking the link didn't work fo r me;
W ould the re -director not take you to the page or would the video not play once there? :confused: I just clicked the link and
the re-de went straight to the page, but the servers are busy and the vid wouldn't play at this time...:mad:
Keep tryng if you didn't get to see it. It's at nig ht so there is not a bunch of detail but there are tons of mu zzle flash, tracer
stream s a n d e x p l o s i o n s ! ! ! : e e k :
Don't know what they were shooting at but it was volitile and there was plenty of it...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Autom atic and Assault W e a p o n s > W im m ersperg Spz-kr Bullpup
Carbine
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Cutaway August 29th, 2008, 05:22 PM

Has this thing ever been produced or used? It's obviously one of the "Last Ditch" weapons of the third reich .
http://img17 6 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 1 7 6 / 4 3 0 9 / w i m m e r s p e r g s p z k r b u l l p u p g d 4 . j p g
Original Source: http://greyfalcon.us/W e a p o n s . h t m
Kaydon August 29th, 2008, 11:52 PM

T h a t ' s g o t t o b e o n e o f t h e m o s t u n c o m fortable designs ever.
I t d o e s n ' t s e e m as if it has been, I doubt you'd ever find one anywhere. Metal stock? For a 7.92? That would be brutal.
No official do cum ents dealing with the von Wim mersperg assault rifle exist, other than the drawings he m a d e a n d s i g n e d
him self It is quite possible that he made up these drawings for use by an arm s m a k i n g f i r m , a s b e f o r e t h e w a r h e h a d b e e n i n
negotiation with firm s such as Mauser, Sim son & Co, Fokker, etc, concerning the actual construction of his early self-loading
rifle and m achine gun prototypes.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=102530
And I wish people would stop calling m agazines "clips"
Interesting find.
Cutaway September 2 nd, 2008, 10:46 PM

Even m ore intriguing that it uses the reciever and parts from a STEN subm achine gun:cool:, The barrel is also removeable.
A n d r e g a r d i n g t h e 7 . 9 2 m m calibre, The Spz-kr uses the 7.92x33 "Kurz" Intermed iate cartridge rather than the full size
7 . 9 2 x 5 7 m m so the recoil shouldnt be so bad.
D a m n, I wanna see real images of this thing:D
festergrump S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2008, 12:07 AM

The Sten receiver is tubular. T his drawing doesn't exactly jive, even in bu llpup form .
W here did you find this new informatio n? I've search for longer than I cared to and cam e u p s h o r t o n a n y t h i n g m o r e t h a n y o u
originally pro vided.
It's a neat id ea, but...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Autom atic and Assault W e a p o n s > Pribor-3B bullpup nordenfelt
gun
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Cutaway September 2 nd, 2008, 10:39 PM

http://img29 9 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 9 9 / 1 0 7 3 / p r i b o r 3 b n o rdenfeltgun1xc7.jpg
http://img24 2 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 4 2 / 4 3 7 6 / p r i b o r 3 b n o rdenfeltgun2du1.jpg
http://img12 0 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 1 2 0 / 7 9 6 2 / p r i b o r 3 b n o rdenfeltgun3tf5.jpg
http://img24 2 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 4 2 / 8 4 6 1 / p r i b o r 3 b n o rdenfeltgun4rj3.jpg
Man-portable nordenfelt gun of the Soviet era that apparently provided 'near m inigun' performance by com bining the RO F but
to be suitable for a soldier to handle. It uses the 7.62x39 round b u t t h e a m m o supply was limited as the weapon is m a g a z i n e
fed.
The Pribor 3B still worked but was also quite ha rd to control due to the re coil force, Cartridge ejection is downwards BEHIND the
m agazine area as the weapon uses a gas/recoil operaton similar to that used in the AN94 Abakan assault rifle currently used
by R ussian special forces. Another variant of the Pribor-3B was m a d e f r o m AKM sm ilar parts to ease production. The Pribor-3B
would be more practical as a tripod m o u n t e d m achine gun if its possible to make a belt feed device for it.
crazywhiteguy S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2008, 12:00 AM

That is a very fine looking gun. Its something I would love to own if i could find a legal version of it. I looked on google and
h a v e n ' t b e e n a b l e t o f i n d m echanism drawings or paten ts for it. I'm interested in seeing how the m e c h a n i s m works to use all
three barrels.
festergrump S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2008, 12:09 AM

A wild, bastardized, tri-barreled, bullpu p AKM... umm ... type of gun. I'm dum bfou n d e d .
Need Links a nd sources, please. This is WAY cool!
[EDIT: Looking more closely at the pictures, it would seem to m e to have only one bolt carrier, judging by the highe r b u m p o n
the top of the dust cover/gas tube (if that's ind eed what it is on top) which the charging handle pokes through. This leads m e
to believe it fires all three barrels sim ultaneously. Very strange.]
486 S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2008, 04:46 PM

T h e r e a l s o o n l y a p p e a r s t o b e 1 gas tube, that's what it seems to be, I don't understand a gas/recoil system , so I'm just
a s s u m i n g , a l s o , a n o t h e r o n e o f t h e s a m e guy's creations appears to have a Bakelite receiver...
http://www.m ilitaryim a g e s . n e t / p h o t o p o s t / d a t a / 5 3 1 / B u l l p u p . J P G
festergrump S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2008, 05:23 PM

...it would seem to me to have only one bolt carrier, jud ging by the higher bum p on the top of the dust cover/gas tube (if
that's indeed what it is on top)
T h e r e a l s o o n l y a p p e a r s t o b e 1 gas tube, that's what it seems to be, I don't understand a gas/recoil system , so I'm just
assuming...
The gas expanding from the fired round is expelled through a port in the barrel(s) after the projectile(s) leave the barrel and
m oves the bolt carrier (thus also the bolt) back to reset the ham m e r f o r a n o t h e r g o a t a f r e s h r o u n d . T h e r e f o r e t h e g a s t u b e
and the gas-piston which is attached to the bolt carrier are one in the sam e s o f a r a s s p a c e g o e s , a s o n e f i t s i n s i d e t h e o t h e r .
This one picture intrigues m e. It shows full on the fact that there is a protrusion u nder the barrels as well as over the top of
t h e m . T h e l o wer one I now suspect to carry a heavy duty spring to handle the load of three 7.62X3 9 rounds firing
sim ultaneously but how would the bolt(s) work unless I am com pletely wrong and the bolt carrier is also underneath and the
charging han dle is ob scurely fit somehow between or around the carrier within the receiver?
There had better be a cutaway drawing of this receiver in the future or I will surely go insane!
The bakelite receiver ideas are cool but I worry about how long they might last. This whole thread brings up m yths which need
m uch explaining...
486 S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2008, 04:48 PM

The bakelite receiver ideas are cool but I worry about how long they might last. This whole thread brings up m yths which need
m uch explaining...
W ith like an AR lower receiver there is almost n o s t r e s s o n i t , a n d s o m e a r e m a d e o f a p o l y m e r , a n t t h e s t o c k a n d b u f f e r t u b e

are integral, It's on the cav-arms site http://www.cavalryarm s.com /MKII.htm l
T h o u g h t h e b a k e l i t e o n e m a y h a v e a s h e e t m etal insert in it , as it would be very brittle and probably wouldn't take the shock
of firing. Tha t gun is under the 3 barre l ones in the pictures Cutaway posted, and a insert seem s to be seen in the ejection
port receiver cross-section
On the 3 barrel one, I thought that the protrusion under the barrels was the gas tube/ cylinder [probably is gas piston
operation, like the AK, FAL, and, AR-18] because the top one doesn't look like it could hold even a gas tub e with the charging
handle there [the gas tube on an AR-15 gets very hot, it would heat up the m e t a l c h a r g i n g h a n d l e t o h a n d s e a r i n g
temperatures quickly]. Straight recoil action wouldn't work, it has a very tapered case, and gas wou ld leak everywhere, I think
the recoil part of gas/recoil op eration was added in translation...
Also it only b ears resem blance to the nordenfelt gun in that it has m ultip le barrels, the no rdenfelt is a weird lever action/trigger
d e s i g n . L o o k it up in wikipedia, or it was in a issue of shotgun news, forget which one though.
486 Novem ber 3rd, 2008, 10:21 PM
I found more info on the bakelite receiver rifle here, if anyone's interested. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as94-e.htm
[Sorry for such a short post, and double post, I would have edited it into my previous post, but since it's an old post, I need to
m ake a new one. So please don't ban me. :p]
*******************
Double posting is fine as long as there is a bit of time between the posts. It's only a crim e when som e o n e m a k e s s e v e r a l
p o s t s i n t h e s a m e thread in rapid succession (usually <12 hours).
-Hinckleyforpresident
*******************
T h a n k s , I ' l l k e e p t h a t i n m ind.
E D I T : T h e w e a p o n a p pears to have the forerunner of the F2000 forward ejection system , this is really interesting, FN took an
o l d R u s s i a n i d e a , a n d m ay ha ve claimed it as their own. The article also confirms my suspicion of a metal liner in the receiver.
[Actually, now that I think of it, the first picture in this thread has 2 plastic weapons, the one on the bottom has a ejection port
on the side, and the one on top is the one I was originally talking about...]

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1. Pribor-3B bullpup nordenfelt gun (6 replies)

vBulletin v3.7.2, Copyright 2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum

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vBulletin v3.7.2, Copyright 2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

cutefix July 29th, 2001, 01:20 AM

Heavy Recoil July 29th, 2001, 01:58 AM

AR-15 Man July 29th, 2001, 05:51 PM

AR-15 Man August 2nd, 2001, 09:38 PM

cutefix August 2nd, 2001, 10:15 PM

AR-15 Man August 3rd, 2001, 12:24 AM

angelo August 3rd, 2001, 02:01 AM

AR-15 Man August 3rd, 2001, 11:50 AM

Heavy Recoil August 3rd, 2001, 03:28 PM

Stoner or expeditionary rifle pics and info here www.Biggerhammer.net (http://www.Biggerhammer.net)

cutefix August 5th, 2001, 03:17 AM

cutefix August 6th, 2001, 12:15 AM

AR-15 Man August 6th, 2001, 02:06 AM

HMTD Factory August 8th, 2001, 10:31 PM

Only semi-auto will be available to civilians

People told you if you have the money, go buy

AR-15 Man August 9th, 2001, 01:12 AM

cutefix August 9th, 2001, 02:25 AM

AR-15 Man August 9th, 2001, 12:55 PM

cutefix August 11th, 2001, 02:32 AM

AR-15 Man August 11th, 2001, 11:09 AM

angelo August 11th, 2001, 10:01 PM

-=HeX=- May 14th, 2008, 02:10 PM

file May 21st, 2008, 04:31 AM

vBulletin v3.7.2, Copyright 2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

green beret January 13th, 2002, 02:44 AM

BoB- January 13th, 2002, 05:49 AM

Its a simple, cheap design though.

J January 13th, 2002, 06:58 AM

Hundminen January 13th, 2002, 03:48 PM

Xtramad January 15th, 2002, 12:58 AM

J January 15th, 2002, 08:42 AM

Agent Blak January 15th, 2002, 05:54 PM

PYRO500 January 15th, 2002, 11:49 PM

Scientist November 5th, 2003, 11:13 AM

I'm interested. Could you post them please?

xyz November 6th, 2003, 03:57 AM

dinkydexy November 6th, 2003, 10:25 AM

Hurrah for jamming stenguns is what I say.

Ammonal November 7th, 2003, 09:41 AM

NickSG November 7th, 2003, 08:20 PM

xyz November 7th, 2003, 10:41 PM

Ammonal November 9th, 2003, 05:47 AM

zaibatsu November 9th, 2003, 10:36 AM

"9mm or .22LR are the cartridges of choice for homemade subs"

Jacks Complete November 9th, 2003, 07:52 PM

Ammonal November 9th, 2003, 08:06 PM

NickSG November 9th, 2003, 10:01 PM

Kid Orgo November 10th, 2003, 01:55 AM

xyz November 10th, 2003, 06:28 AM

Ammonal November 10th, 2003, 08:24 AM

steyr November 22nd, 2003, 06:35 PM

xyz November 22nd, 2003, 09:46 PM

steyr November 23rd, 2003, 05:26 AM

Jacks Complete November 23rd, 2003, 10:26 AM