Page 1

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE ELEVENTH

JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR
2 MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 GENERAL JURISDICTION DIVISION
4 CASE NO. 12-37012 CA 01
5
6
MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, by and
7 through the Regulatory and
Economic and Resources
8 Department,
9 Plaintiff,
10 vs.
11 JOHN E. DUBOIS,
12 Defendant.
_________________________________/
13
14
15 111 N.W. 1st Street
Conference Room 27A
16 Miami, Florida
Thursday, April 20, 2017
17 10:41 a.m.
18
19 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOHN E. DUBOIS
20
21 Taken before LUCY LOVELL, Court Reporter and
22 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at
23 Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition in
24 the above cause.
25

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1 APPEARANCES 1 (Thereupon, the following
2
3 CHRISTOPHER A. ANGELL, ESQUIRE 2 proceedings were had:)
angellc@miamidade.gov 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: My name is Tom
4 MIAMI-DADE COUNTY ATTORNEY 4 Charron. I am representing Veritext. The
111 N.W. 1st Street, Suite 2810
5 Miami, Florida 33128-1902 5 date today is April 20, 2017. The time is
(305) 375-5151 6 approximately 10:41 a.m. We are at the
6 On behalf of the Plaintiff
7 JEFFREY P. LEARY, ESQUIRE
7 County Attorney's Office located at 111
mdcpr.jl@gmail.com 8 Northwest 1st Street. The caption of the
8 18495 South Dixie Highway, PMB 107 9 case is Miami-Dade County, et al., versus
Cutler Bay, Florida 33157-6817
9 (585) 747-2952
10 John E. Dubois. The name of the witness is
On behalf of the Defendant 11 John E. Dubois.
10 12 At this time attorneys present in the
ALSO PRESENT:
11 13 room will identify themselves and the parties
TOM CHARRON, Videographer 14 they represent. Our court reporter, Lucy
12 DEAN CHIMERAKIS, Videographer 15 Lovell, also representing Veritext, will
JOHN RICISAK
13 16 swear in the witness and then we will
14 17 proceed.
15 18 MR. ANGELL: Chris Angell on behalf of
16
17 19 Miami-Dade County. Present with me is my
18 20 County representative, John Ricisak. For the
19
20
21 record, R-I-C-I-S-A-K.
21 22 MR. LEARY: Jeffrey Leary on behalf of
22 23 the Defendant.
23
24
24 Thereupon:
25 25 JOHN E. DUBOIS
Page 3 Page 5
1 INDEX 1 was called as a witness and, after having been first
2 WITNESS PAGE 2 duly sworn and responding, "Yes," was examined and
3 JOHN E. DUBOIS 3 testified as follows:
4 Direct examination by Mr. Angell .............5 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 Witness Signature Page ......................39 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 Errata Sheet ................................40 6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dubois.
7 Certificate of Oath of Witness ..............41 7 A. Good morning.
8 Reporter's Deposition Certificate ...........42 8 Q. As you know, we are here pursuant to a
9 Letter to Witness Re: Reading ..............43 9 court order on a very limited scope, so I don't
10 Letter to Attorney Re: Reading .............44 10 imagine that today will take very long. I
11 EXHIBITS 11 anticipate an hour, an hour and a half at the most,
12 (No exhibits were marked during this deposition) 12 if not less.
13 13 A. Okay.
14 14 Q. However, the same rules from the last two
15 15 times that we have done this apply. If you don't
16 16 understand my question, please let me know you don't
17 17 understand my question. I'll be happy to rephrase
18 18 it.
19 19 If at any point in time you need a break,
20 20 that's perfectly fine. Just let me know. If you
21 21 want water or anything, let me know. I will be
22 22 happy to get that for you as well.
23 23 If you want to consult with your attorney
24 24 about something, that's fine too. But I only ask
25 25 that if there is a question pending, answer the

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1 question before we take a break for any reason. 1 Q. Do you recall what years you employed them
2 A. Okay. 2 for?
3 Q. So, again, we are here pursuant to a court 3 A. It was probably less than one year. I
4 order on three limited topics so I am just going to 4 believe it was maybe two years ago.
5 go right into them. 5 Q. So in about 2015?
6 Last time we were here you were asked 6 A. 2014, 2015. Somewhere in there.
7 about private investigation firms. And you stated 7 Q. What was the scope of their work?
8 that you had employed two or three PI firms during 8 A. I educated them on a case and asked them
9 the course of this case. What were the names of 9 to do some background work on Mr. Ricisak and
10 those firms? 10 Ms. Klingerman, which they did.
11 A. Well, during the course of the issues I 11 Q. When you say the scope of the case, are
12 have had related to this case, yes. If you mean 12 you referring to the case that we are here for today
13 during the case since the lawsuit was filed by the 13 of Miami-Dade County versus John Dubois?
14 County, it's probably just one. 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Which firms have you retained about issues 15 Q. Did you have them do any work on any other
16 concerning this case? 16 action regarding the County or County employees?
17 A. Since the lawsuit was filed, there is one 17 MR. LEARY: Object to form.
18 firm. I think it was 5726 or some number is the 18 THE WITNESS: I just gave them general
19 name of their firm. 19 directions. Where their investigation led
20 Q. And regarding issues in general, not 20 them, I couldn't tell you who else they
21 concerning the lawsuit but issues with this case, 21 necessarily investigated.
22 which firm? 22 BY MR. ANGELL:
23 A. Prior to -- I think it was called Florida 23 Q. The background work that you had them do
24 Intelligence. 24 on Mr. Ricisak, what did that entail?
25 Q. Any other firm? 25 A. I think the only thing they really did was
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1 A. I believe that was it. 1 just run the online information. That's where we
2 Q. Did you have a Retainer Agreement with 2 came up with the issue with crashing the County
3 5326 Consultants? 3 vehicle and having it listed on the report as under
4 A. Yes. 4 the influence.
5 Q. And you said 5726. Is that the same, is 5 Q. When you say you gave them, directed them
6 that what you meant? 6 to do background work into Mr. Ricisak and
7 A. Yes. I didn't recall the number. 7 Ms. Klingerman, did you define the scope of what you
8 Q. So when you said 5726, you actually meant 8 meant by background work?
9 5326 Consultants? 9 A. I don't recall.
10 A. It appears that way, yes. 10 Q. Do you know if 5326 -- I am sorry -- 5326
11 Q. Do you still retain a copy of the Retainer 11 interviewed any people who used to work with
12 Agreement with 5326? 12 Mr. Ricisak?
13 A. I haven't seen it since we moved offices, 13 A. Not to my knowledge.
14 so I really don't know where it is. 14 Q. Do you know if they interviewed any people
15 Q. Do you still employ 5326? 15 who used to work with Ms. Klingerman?
16 A. No. 16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. When did you end your relationship with 17 Q. Do you know if they interviewed any
18 5326? 18 neighbors or family of Mr. Ricisak?
19 A. I don't recall. It was quite a while ago. 19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you recall if it was more than a year 20 Q. Do you know if they interviewed any
21 ago? 21 neighbors or family of Ms. Klingerman?
22 A. It was definitely more than a year. 22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Do you recall if it was more than two 23 Q. Other than the report, the Internet
24 years ago? 24 printout provided by 5326 Consultants, did they
25 A. No. I don't recall that. 25 provide you any other written documentation?

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1 A. Yes. They did a significant report on 1 A. I don't believe they did.
2 Klingerman. 2 Q. The photographs that were taken of
3 Q. Did they give you a report on Mr. Ricisak? 3 Ms. Klingerman, were they provided to you?
4 A. No. 4 A. Yes, they were.
5 Q. Other than the 5326 Consultants Internet 5 Q. And have you viewed all those photographs
6 printout report, did they ever discuss with you 6 at some point in time?
7 their findings concerning Mr. Ricisak? 7 A. I did when it was done and it was provided
8 A. I think they just reviewed what they found 8 to me.
9 on that and that was pretty much it. 9 Q. The photographs of Ms. Klingerman, were
10 Q. So they only discussed with you what's 10 they her functioning in her official work capacity?
11 contained in the report and nothing further? 11 A. No. It was just useless pictures of her
12 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 12 in a car and a picture of her house and that was
13 Q. The report itself lists some other people 13 about it.
14 by name. Do you know if the consultant firm, 5326 14 Q. Were there any pictures of her family
15 Consultants, interviewed any of those people? 15 taken?
16 A. I have no idea. 16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. You mentioned a car crash that's 17 Q. Do you recall if there was any pictures of
18 referenced in the report. Do you know whether or 18 her associates?
19 not 5326 Consultants located the other person 19 A. I don't believe so.
20 involved in that car crash? 20 Q. Did any -- do you recall if any of the
21 A. I believe there was an effort made but the 21 pictures contained any other individual other than
22 effort led nowhere. 22 Ms. Klingerman?
23 Q. Was that told to you verbally or was that 23 A. I don't recall having seen any.
24 contained in the document? 24 Q. Do you still have those photographs?
25 A. It was discussed verbally. 25 A. As I said, since we moved offices, I have
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1 Q. Have they ever e-mailed you? 1 not been able to locate the files from these people.
2 A. Of course there has been e-mails on 2 Q. Do you still have their report concerning
3 billing-related stuff. And I don't recall the 3 Ms. Klingerman?
4 details of any particular e-mails. 4 A. No. I don't know where it is.
5 Q. Other than billing, do you recall if they 5 Q. The report concerning Ms. Klingerman, what
6 discussed the facts of any of the findings 6 did it say?
7 concerning Mr. Ricisak? 7 A. It just had some pictures. It just gave
8 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 8 the same sort of information an online report would
9 THE WITNESS: That was done verbally. 9 make plus pictures.
10 BY MR. ANGELL: 10 Q. So did it contain sort of substantially
11 Q. With regard to Ms. Klingerman, you said 11 the same type of information that's contained in the
12 they provided you with an extensive report on 12 report concerning that Mr. Ricisak was furnished by
13 Ms. Klingerman? 13 5326 only with regard to Ms. Klingerman?
14 A. Well, it depends on whose definition of 14 A. Yes. I don't recall anything in there
15 "extensive," but more than just running an online 15 that stuck to my mind as being important or relevant
16 report. Yes, they took photographs of her and that 16 to the case. So I really didn't pay much attention
17 sort of thing. 17 to it after it was done.
18 Q. So they did surveillance of 18 Q. Do you recall how long 5326 surveilled
19 Ms. Klingerman? 19 Ms. Klingerman? Did they tell you it was a week, a
20 A. Yes. 20 month?
21 Q. Did you request them to do surveillance of 21 A. It might have been a week at the most.
22 Ms. Klingerman? 22 Q. What did you pay 5326 Consultants for
23 A. I don't recall. 23 their services?
24 Q. Do you know if they did surveillance on 24 A. I don't recall. It was not a tremendous
25 Mr. Ricisak? 25 amount of money.

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1 Q. "Tremendous" can be different for 1 A. I don't believe so.
2 different people. 2 Q. Do you know if they pulled any financial
3 A. Well, for all the work they did, probably 3 records concerning Mr. Ricisak other than what is
4 under 10,000. 4 outlined in the --
5 Q. Did you work with anybody specific, any 5 A. I believe that's all they did.
6 specific individual at 5326 you recall the name of? 6 Q. How about financial records of
7 A. Yes. One of the principals that I dealt 7 Ms. Klingerman?
8 with was Stacy Blau. 8 A. Not to my knowledge.
9 Q. Other than Ms. Blau, did you work -- for 9 Q. Do you know if they pulled any phone
10 the record, B-L-A-U. 10 records of Mr. Ricisak?
11 Other than Ms. Blau, do you recall any 11 A. Not to my knowledge.
12 other specific individual that you worked with at 12 Q. Do you know if they pulled any phone
13 that firm? 13 records of Ms. Klingerman?
14 A. Well, her partner and boyfriend or maybe 14 A. Not to my knowledge.
15 husband. I am not sure. Rodney-something. 15 Q. Do know if 5326 downloaded or accessed any
16 Q. Just those two? 16 social media accounts related to Mr. Ricisak?
17 A. Uh-huh. 17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 Q. Do you know if they employed any other 18 Q. Do you know if they accessed any social
19 staff? 19 media accounts related to Ms. Klingerman?
20 A. I don't believe they do. 20 A. Not to my knowledge.
21 Q. When you met with them -- let me ask it 21 Q. Do you know if they accessed any social
22 this way. 22 media accounts relating to any other County
23 When you retained them, did you meet with 23 employee?
24 them in person? 24 A. Not to my knowledge.
25 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Do you know if they ever interviewed any
Page 15 Page 17
1 Q. And where did you meet with them? 1 past County employees?
2 A. It was -- the first meeting was probably 2 A. I don't believe so.
3 at my house or in my office. 3 Q. Did you hire them yourself or did you hire
4 Q. About how many -- 4 them through an agent?
5 A. I don't really recall. 5 A. I don't recall the Engagement Letter,
6 Q. About how many meetings did you have with 6 whether it was with through one of my entities or
7 them? 7 whether it was me personally. I really don't
8 A. Maybe, like, three. 8 recall.
9 Q. Were all those meetings at your house or 9 Q. If it was through one of your entities,
10 office? 10 would it have been through Miami-Dade Citizens for
11 A. I think they were mostly at the Indigo 11 Property Rights?
12 office, if not all of them. 12 MR. LEARY: Object to the question as
13 Q. And the Indigo office being one of your 13 potentially privileged.
14 offices? 14 MR. ANGELL: I am not asking about --
15 A. Yes, in Palmetto Bay. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I really
16 Q. What's the address of that office? 16 don't recall. I will have to check to see
17 A. The office we use there is 9726 East 17 where the check was written from.
18 Indigo Street. 18 BY MR. ANGELL:
19 Q. To your knowledge, did they investigate 19 Q. Did 5326 Consultants work in conjunction
20 any other employees other than Mr. Ricisak and 20 at any time with Florida Intelligence?
21 Ms. Klingerman? 21 A. No.
22 A. Say the question again. 22 Q. Do you know why they did surveillance of
23 Q. To your knowledge, did they investigate 23 Ms. Klingerman and not Mr. Ricisak?
24 any other employees of the County other than 24 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
25 Ms. Klingerman and Mr. Ricisak? 25 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any

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1 particular reason. I don't know. 1 verify and other allegations trying to gain access
2 BY MR. ANGELL: 2 to my property over the years.
3 Q. Did you tell them to surveille 3 So after it got to a ridiculous point, I
4 Ms. Klingerman? 4 was referred to them and was starting to proceed to
5 A. Yes. 5 hire them. And once there was some phone calls made
6 Q. Did you tell them to surveille 6 and basically it seemed to stop at that point, so
7 Mr. Ricisak? 7 there was no need to follow through with an
8 A. No. 8 investigation at that point.
9 Q. Why not? 9 Q. Was these issues you spoke of, were these
10 A. Didn't seem to be a reason. 10 all during the construction phase of the home?
11 Q. Why did you choose Ms. Klingerman? 11 A. Yes. Pretty much during construction.
12 A. Because I didn't know much about her. 12 Q. So when you spoke with Florida
13 Q. So was the reason simply to gain 13 Intelligence, was it during the construction phase
14 information about Ms. Klingerman? 14 or did you speak with them after the construction?
15 MR. LEARY: Standing objection, 15 A. It was so long ago I don't remember the
16 relevance, of any of these questions. 16 time exactly of it. But it was a long time ago.
17 THE WITNESS: Sorry? 17 Q. Was it more than two years ago?
18 BY MR. ANGELL: 18 A. Yes. It was, like, probably ten, maybe
19 Q. Was the reason to surveille Ms. Klingerman 19 more than ten years ago.
20 simply to gather general information about her? 20 Q. It was before this case was filed?
21 A. Like I said, I knew less about her, so it 21 A. Yes, way before.
22 seemed reasonable to collect information about her. 22 Q. Did you ever actually obtain a Retainer
23 Q. So the scope wasn't just limited to issues 23 Agreement with Florida Intelligence?
24 concerning the case? 24 A. No.
25 A. Of course it was. That's all I was 25 Q. Other than speaking with them, did they
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1 concerned with. 1 ever actually perform any work for you?
2 Q. What type of information did you task them 2 A. Yes. They looked into a couple things, I
3 to determine about Ms. Klingerman? 3 think. Again, I don't remember. It was over ten
4 A. I never dealt with private investigators 4 years ago really.
5 before, so I just told them to do whatever they 5 Q. Did you pay them for those services?
6 normally do. 6 A. No.
7 Q. Was 5326 the first time you engaged a 7 Q. When you met with Florida Intelligence,
8 private investigation firm? 8 did you meet with them on your property or at their
9 A. I mean, Florida Intelligence was the first 9 office?
10 time. But that was -- I don't even believe we got 10 A. Never met with them. Talked to them over
11 to the point where we had a formal engagement with 11 the phone only.
12 them. So this is the first time I have actually 12 Q. Do you know if they were ever on your
13 paid anybody to do a formal investigation, yes. 13 property?
14 Q. Let's talk about Florida Intelligence, 14 A. I don't know.
15 then. 15 Q. Do you know who specifically you dealt
16 When did you speak with them about the 16 with from Florida Intelligence?
17 potential of engaging them in employment? 17 A. I think it was Wayne Black, the principal.
18 A. That was probably -- that was when I 18 Q. What's the first name?
19 started getting visits from people from the 19 A. Wayne Black, I believe.
20 Department of Environmental Protection claiming they 20 Q. Last time we were here you testified that
21 saw -- DEP, I think Army Corps and possibly DERM 21 you had personally interviewed people that used to
22 approaching my employees at my property, saying 22 work with Mr. Ricisak.
23 things like they heard a hawk and they wanted access 23 Do you recall that?
24 to the property to verify that they believe there is 24 A. Yes.
25 a manatee in my channel. And they wanted access to 25 Q. Who did you interview?

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1 A. The one in particular is -- I don't recall 1 been asking just popped into my mind was when there
2 his last name -- his first name is Bill. And he 2 is an administrative hearing on the UCB -- I was
3 apparently worked for Mr. Ricisak for quite a long 3 given -- I did have the record on my phone on during
4 period of time. 4 the administrative hearing and I forgot to turn it
5 Q. Other than Bill, who else did you speak 5 off. So we were in the elevator and Mr. Ricisak
6 to? 6 made to the comment to me, "I am looking forward to
7 A. I wouldn't know, unless Mr. Ricisak wants 7 seeing you in court." That was on the recording.
8 to give me the list of all the employees that ever 8 And the recording was turned off later.
9 worked for him and I can tell you if I spoke to 9 Q. Okay. Other than Mr. Ricisak, any
10 them. 10 recordings of any other County employees, either
11 Q. Did you take any written statements from 11 current or former that you yourself took?
12 Bill? 12 A. No.
13 A. No. 13 Q. Any recordings, either written, audio or
14 Q. Did you take any written statements from 14 video, of a County employee that you had taken at
15 any other employees that used to work for 15 your direction?
16 Mr. Ricisak? 16 A. I wish I did during the UCB hearing. But
17 A. I don't know who used to work for 17 no, I did not.
18 Mr. Ricisak because I believe, in the public records 18 Q. The individual named Bill that you
19 request to get that information, we were 19 interviewed --
20 unsuccessful. The County didn't cooperate. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you take any written statements from 21 Q. -- does he still work for the County?
22 any current County employees? 22 A. No.
23 A. Say that again. 23 Q. Do you know when Bill stopped working for
24 Q. Did you personally take any written 24 the County?
25 statements from any current County employees? 25 A. I don't recall.
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1 A. Did I? No. 1 Q. Do you recall the substance of what Bill
2 Q. Did you take any written statements from 2 said?
3 any former County employees? 3 A. Yes.
4 A. I didn't. No. 4 Q. What did Bill say?
5 Q. Did you take any recorded statements from 5 A. He basically said that --he characterized
6 any current or former County employees? 6 Mr. Ricisak as being -- doing things, such as on a
7 A. No. 7 Saturday or Sunday, somebody -- or was a Friday or
8 Q. Did you take any notes from -- any 8 Saturday, something like that, somebody that had a
9 statements made by current or former County 9 dock built with a permit. They were doing an
10 employees? 10 inspection and it was supposed to be, like, a
11 A. Let me just say that I am assuming all of 11 500 foot dock, square foot or whatever the size was.
12 these are implied to mean related to the case. 12 And it went over by, like, a foot or one percent or
13 Obviously, I have spoken to County employees on 13 something like that.
14 other issues in my work as an elected official on my 14 And Mr. Ricisak insisted that they get the
15 work with the County on other issues. 15 general contractor out there on Saturday or Sunday
16 Q. Fair enough. 16 on a weekend and cut off the additional foot.
17 All my questions are related to the case 17 Otherwise, they would be fined. And he just
18 related specifically to your inquiries concerning 18 characterized incidents like that.
19 Mr. Ricisak. 19 And when I told him about the situation
20 A. The answer is no, then. 20 with somebody cutting the mangrove at the end of my
21 Q. Did you have anyone take, other than 21 island at 3:00 in the morning, he said, "Yes, he
22 yourself, take any recordings, written or otherwise, 22 would -- that would be something Mr. Ricisak might
23 of the interviews with the employees that either 23 do," in his opinion, given his psychological
24 currently or formerly worked with Mr. Ricisak? 24 profile.
25 A. No. The only exception to what you have 25 Q. A few things there. First, did Bill

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1 actually tell you he had personal knowledge of 1 Q. Who?
2 Mr. Ricisak cutting the mangroves on your property? 2 A. A Vice Mayor, Susie Lozell, from Cutler
3 A. No. 3 Bay knew of him and made the introduction.
4 Q. When you say Mr. Ricisak's psychological 4 Q. Is that the friend or the friend of the
5 profile, did you have a psychological profile workup 5 friend, the Vice Mayor?
6 of Mr. Ricisak done? 6 A. She knew Bill.
7 A. No. 7 Q. So she knew Bill. So through her you
8 Q. Did Bill have a psychological profile of 8 found Bill?
9 Mr. Ricisak done? 9 A. Right.
10 A. No. 10 Q. Can you describe Bill for me?
11 Q. So what do mean by "psychological 11 A. How do you want me to describe him in
12 profile"? 12 terms of --
13 A. Well, I mean, based on the behav -- maybe 13 Q. As best you can.
14 not psychological. Maybe the behavior pattern that 14 A. Physical? I really don't recall. I would
15 he experienced while working with Mr. Ricisak is a 15 say probably average height. I don't remember hair
16 better way to characterize the conversation. 16 color. I really don't.
17 Q. Did Bill tell you how long he worked with 17 Q. White male, black male, Hispanic?
18 Mr. Ricisak? 18 A. White.
19 A. I think he said five or seven years. 19 Q. You know if Bill still lives in Florida?
20 Q. Did he tell you in what capacity he worked 20 A. I believe he does not.
21 with Mr. Ricisak? 21 Q. Do you know where Bill lives?
22 A. No. He just referred to a bunch of 22 A. I think it's in one of the Carolinas.
23 incidents. And, again, the only one that stuck out 23 Q. Do you have Bill's contact information?
24 in my mind was the one with the dock incident where 24 A. No, I do not.
25 it was pretty extreme behavior. 25 Q. When was the last time you spoke to Bill?
Page 27 Page 29
1 Q. Other than what you have told me of the 1 A. Would have been -- I don't know. Maybe,
2 comments that were made by Bill, do you recall any 2 like, a year and a half ago.
3 other statements he made to you concerning 3 Q. How is it that you were able to contact
4 Mr. Ricisak? 4 him?
5 A. I don't. It was a while back. I really 5 A. Susie Lozell, because he comes down to
6 don't. That was the only comment that really jumped 6 visit, since he used to live in the area, called me
7 out. There were other work scenarios that he 7 up and said, "Hey, he is down here. You want to
8 described that were similar in context but that was 8 meet with him?" I am, like, sure.
9 just the one that I recall. 9 Q. How many times have you met with him?
10 Q. You don't recall specifics of the other 10 A. Twice.
11 work scenarios? 11 Q. And what was the -- when was the first
12 A. I don't recall at all. 12 meeting?
13 Q. Did Bill say what division of the 13 A. It was, like, a year and a half ago. Two
14 department he worked for? 14 years ago maybe.
15 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. How close in time from the first meeting
16 Q. I should say what section of the division 16 was the second meeting?
17 of DERM he worked for. 17 A. Might have been three to six months apart.
18 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. Did Bill say anything positive about
19 Q. Did Bill tell you how it came about that 19 Mr. Ricisak?
20 he left working for the County? 20 A. Not really.
21 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. When you say "not really," did he say
22 Q. What does Bill currently do? 22 anything positive at all?
23 A. I believe he works for the Army Corps. 23 A. I don't recall anything positive being
24 Q. How did you find Bill? 24 said about Mr. Ricisak by him.
25 A. A friend of a friend. 25 Q. When you interviewed Bill, was anybody
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1 else present? 1 asking names. I am asking numbers. So how many
2 A. Susie Lozell was there. 2 people that used to work with Mr. Ricisak did you
3 Q. How is it that Ms. Lozell came to know 3 interview?
4 that you wanted to speak to people who used to work 4 A. I don't know who worked for Mr. Ricisak.
5 with Mr. Ricisak? 5 So it's not possible for me to accurately answer
6 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 6 that question.
7 THE WITNESS: It was pretty common 7 Q. Well, did you interview more than two
8 knowledge among people in my neck of the 8 people?
9 woods that I have an issue with DERM. So 9 A. Because I don't know who worked for
10 there is a lot of chatter in the community 10 Mr. Ricisak, it's not possible for me to tell you
11 and, you know, a lot of people that work for 11 whether the number is zero or the number is ten.
12 the County that have something to say 12 Q. So have you interviewed people, just in
13 generally say it. So -- 13 general, about Mr. Ricisak?
14 BY MR. ANGELL: 14 MR. LEARY: Object to form.
15 Q. Of all the people that you interviewed, 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean
16 did anybody have any firsthand knowledge of the 16 by --
17 allegation that Mr. Ricisak trimmed the mangroves on 17 BY MR. ANGELL:
18 your property or altered it? 18 Q. You seem to be making a distinction from
19 A. What allegation are you talking abut? 19 the group of people you have interviewed as to those
20 Q. Well, you called The Miami Herald and 20 who worked for Mr. Ricisak or with Mr. Ricisak,
21 reported an incident that was reported in The Herald 21 either currently or previously, versus other people
22 3-29-13. And last time you were here you said that 22 that he may have talked --
23 you believed that Mr. Ricisak was responsible for 23 A. I don't go around asking people about
24 that, based upon your interview with former 24 Mr. Ricisak, so the answer is no.
25 employees who used to work with Mr. Ricisak. 25 Q. So if you don't go around asking people
Page 31 Page 33
1 A. That's not an allegation. That's a 1 about Mr. Ricisak, then how many people have you
2 feeling. 2 spoken to about Mr. Ricisak in the context of trying
3 Q. Well, my question is: Do you have any 3 to learn information about his character?
4 firsthand knowledge? Not you, but the people that 4 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Object
5 you interviewed, did any of them have any firsthand 5 to the form.
6 knowledge that Mr. Ricisak is the person that was 6 THE WITNESS: I couldn't tell you.
7 responsible? 7 There is a lot of people that know him, know
8 A. Of course not, or there would be an 8 DERM, know my issues with DERM and have
9 investigation and he would probably be in jail. 9 volunteered information. And I can't
10 Q. You said you spoke to a series of other 10 characterize the number.
11 people besides Bill. How many people did you speak 11 BY MR. ANGELL:
12 to that used to work with Mr. Ricisak? 12 Q. So as you sit here today, you can't tell
13 A. Again, unless Mr. Ricisak is willing to 13 me if it was more than two?
14 provide the list of -- we have been asking for a 14 A. It may have been a dozen. I don't know.
15 long time, through public records requests, of all 15 Q. You can't tell me if it's more than 20?
16 the employees that worked for him. I have no way of 16 A. There are people that, you know, say,
17 answering that question. 17 "Oh" -- they joke around with me on the tennis court
18 Q. Well, as you are aware, I am sure as -- as 18 about my mangrove issues. "Oh, I knew little
19 you are aware, as a public official, public records 19 John-John when he was growing up in Hialeah."
20 requests doesn't require us to make anything. If 20 Does that constitute conversation? No, I
21 they exist, we would provide it. 21 didn't ask them about it. I don't talk to them
22 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance of 22 about it. So no.
23 the commentary -- 23 Q. And who is the individual who told you
24 BY MR. ANGELL: 24 that Mr. Ricisak --
25 Q. That part aside, Mr. Dubois, I am not 25 A. Was the guy I play tennis used to be a

9 (Pages 30 - 33)
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1 neighbor of his when he was growing up. Patrick 1 same both times?
2 Griven (phonetic) is his name. So, you know, 2 A. Pretty much.
3 situations like that I don't bring it up. Somebody 3 Q. Do you recall any of the differences or
4 brings it up to me. I don't ask any questions. 4 topics?
5 Thank you. 5 A. Not really.
6 Q. Did you speak to any of the other 6 Q. When you say "not really" --
7 neighbors of Mr. Ricisak, either current or former? 7 A. I don't recall.
8 A. I don't even know where Mr. Ricisak lived 8 Q. Let's talk now about what -- move back. I
9 in the past. So -- 9 should say to the mangrove incident reported in The
10 Q. Well, it's contained in 5327. 10 Herald 3-29-13.
11 A. I know where he lives now. I don't know 11 Do you have any physical evidence that
12 where he lived in the past is what I just said. 12 Mr. Ricisak was the person responsible, other
13 Q. Did you talk to any of his current 13 than -- I know you have cut mangroves. Other than
14 neighbors? 14 seeing mangroves that were cut, do you have any
15 A. No. 15 other physical evidence that points to Mr. Ricisak
16 Q. Other than discussing Mr. Ricisak with 16 as the person responsible?
17 Bill, did you discuss any other issues concerning 17 A. No. I mean, it's just intuitive. Nobody
18 this case with Bill? 18 else would have motive.
19 A. Ask the question again. 19 Q. Do you have any surveillance footage that
20 Q. Other than discussing Mr. Ricisak with 20 shows the person that was responsible?
21 Bill, did you discuss any other aspects of this case 21 A. No.
22 with Bill? 22 Q. Do you have any surveillance footage of
23 A. I don't recall. 23 that night when the mangroves were affected or
24 Q. Did you discuss any other employees with 24 altered concerning that area?
25 Bill? 25 A. Not in that area, no.
Page 35 Page 37
1 A. I don't recall. 1 Q. From what Bill told you, his belief is
2 Q. When you met with Bill was it on your 2 that Mr. Ricisak was the person that could have done
3 property? 3 that?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. He said that would kind of fit his
5 Q. Both times was on your property? 5 behavior profile, effectively what he said.
6 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you believe Mr. Ricisak altered or cut
7 Q. Have you ever employed Bill for any 7 those mangroves?
8 reason? 8 A. I do.
9 A. No. 9 Q. Do you believe he did it himself or had
10 Q. Was Bill compensated in any way for 10 someone else do it?
11 speaking with you? 11 A. I believe he did it himself.
12 A. No. Well, he was given a beer. 12 Q. Last area of questioning I have for you
13 Q. The other people you spoke to, were they 13 today is about the funding of Miami-Dade Citizens
14 compensated in any way for speaking with you? 14 for Property Rights. When we were in court, just so
15 A. Not by me. 15 you are aware, we limited the scope of that by
16 Q. Are you aware if they were compensated in 16 agreement.
17 any way? 17 A. Uh-huh.
18 A. I am not aware of any compensation given 18 Q. So I am only going to ask about specific
19 to anybody. 19 individuals.
20 Q. Do you remember how long your conversation 20 Has April Burch ever contributed to the
21 with Bill lasted the first time? 21 organization?
22 A. May have been 45 minutes. 22 A. Not to my knowledge.
23 Q. How about the second time? 23 Q. I believe her father had passed away
24 A. Maybe an hour. Same thing. 24 before the organization was founded but I am not
25 Q. Was the content of the conversation the 25 sure.

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1 Has he ever -- has Elliot Burch ever 1 ERRATA SHEET

2 contributed? 2
3 RE: Miami-Dade County vs. John E. Dubois
3 A. No.
DEPO OF: JOHN E. DUBOIS
4 Q. Ed Swakon? 4 TAKEN: April 20, 2017
5 A. No. 5 DO NOT WRITE ON TRANSCRIPT. ENTER ANY CHANGES HERE
6 Q. S-W-A-K-O-N. Burch is B-U-R-C-H. 6 Page # | Line # | Change | Reason
7 Clifford Conday? 7 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
8 A. Let me make it simple. I am the only one 8 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
9 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
9 that has funded the organization.
10 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
10 Q. So you are the sole funder?
11 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
11 A. Yes. 12 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
12 MR. ANGELL: I don't have anything else. 13 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
13 MR. LEARY: I do not have any questions. 14 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the record 15 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
16 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
15 at 11:20.
17 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
16 MR. LEARY: Read.
18 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
17 (This deposition was concluded at 19 ______ | ______ | _____________________ | __________
18 11:20 a.m.) 20 State of Florida )
19 County of )
20 21

21 Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have

22 read by deposition transcript, and it is true and
22
correct subject to any changes in form or
23 23 substance entered here.
24 24 _____________ _____________________________________
25 25 Date JOHN E. DUBOIS

Page 39 Page 41
1 RE: Miami-Dade County vs. John E. Dubois 1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH OF WITNESS
2 DEPO OF: JOHN E. DUBOIS 2
3 TAKEN: April 20, 2017 3
4 4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 ) SS :
6 EXCEPT FOR ANY CORRECTIONS MADE ON THE ERRATA SHEET 5 COUNTY OF MIAMI-DADE )
BY ME, I CERTIFY THIS IS A TRUE AND ACCURATE 6
7 TRANSCRIPT. FURTHER DEPONENT SAYETH NOT.
7 I, LUCY LOVELL, Court Reporter, Notary Public
8
8 in and for the State of Florida at Large, certify
9 that the witness, JOHN E. DUBOIS personally appeared
9 _______________________________________
10 before me on April 20, 2017 and was duly sworn by
10 JOHN E. DUBOIS
11 me.
11
12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 26th day
12 STATE OF FLORIDA )
13 of April, 2017.
) SS :
14
13 COUNTY OF _______________ )
15
14
<%Signature%>
15 Sworn and subscribed to before me this
16 ___________________________________
16 _______ day of_______________________, 2017. 17 LUCY LOVELL
17 PERSONALLY KNOWN ____ OR I.D. ___________________ Notary Public - State of Florida
18 _________________________________________________ 18 My Commission No. GG 078122
19 Expires: April 5, 2021
20 19
21 _____________________________ 20
22 Notary Public in and for 21
the State of Florida at Large. 22
23 My commission expires: 23
24 24
25 25

11 (Pages 38 - 41)
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1 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE 1 VERITEXT FLORIDA REPORTING CO.
2 South Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 2250
2 2 Miami, Florida 33131
3 (305) 371-1884
3
4 I, LUCY LOVELL, Court Reporter, certify that I 4 April 28, 2017
5 was authorized to and did stenographically report 5
6 Christopher A. Angell, Esq.
6 the deposition of JOHN E. DUBOIS, the witness herein MIAMI-DADE COUNTY ATTORNEY
7 on April 20, 2017; that a review of the transcript 7 111 N.W. 1st Street, Suite 2810
Miami, Florida 33128-1902
8 was requested; that the foregoing pages numbered 8
9 from 1 to 44, inclusive, is a true and complete RE: Miami-Dade County vs. John E. Dubois
9 DEPO OF: JOHN E. DUBOIS
10 record of my stenographic notes of the deposition by TAKEN: April 20, 2017
11 said witness; and that this computer-assisted 10 NUMBER OF PAGES: 44
AVAILABLE FOR READING UNTIL: 30 Days
12 transcript was prepared under my supervision. 11
13 I further certify that I am not a relative, Dear Mr. Angell:
12
14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, The original transcript of the deposition listed
15 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the 13 above is enclosed for your file. The witness did
not waive reading and signing and has been sent a
16 parties' attorney or counsel connected with the 14 letter notifying them to come in to read and sign
17 action. their deposition transcript.
15
18 DATED this 26th day of April, 2017. The witness will be provided a copy of their
19 16 deposition for reading in our office should they
come in to review the transcript, and we will
20 17 forward to you any corrections made by the witness
21 <%Signature%> at that time, along with an original signature page
18 to be attached to the original transcript.
___________________________________ 19 Sincerely,
22 LUCY LOVELL, 20
21 LUCY LOVELL,
Court Reporter Court Reporter
23 22
23
24 24
25 25

Page 43
1 VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
2 South Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 2250
2 Miami, Florida 33131
(305) 376-8800
3
April 28, 2017
4
RE: Miami-Dade County vs. John E. Dubois
5 DEPO OF: JOHN E. DUBOIS
TAKEN: April 20, 2017
6 NUMBER OF PAGES: 44
AVAILABLE FOR READING UNTIL: 30 Days
7
Mr. John Dubois
8 c/o Jeffrey P. Leary, Esq.
18495 South Dixie Highway, PMB 107
9 Cutler Bay, Florida 33157-6817
10 Dear Mr. Dubois:
11 This letter is to advise you that the transcript of
your deposition is available for reading and
12 signing.
13 PLEASE CALL THE ABOVE NUMBER TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT
to come to the Veritext office closest to you to
14 read and sign the transcript. Our office hours are
from 8:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Monday through Friday.
15
In the event other arrangements are made, please
16 send us a notarized list of any and all corrections
and/or changes, noting page and line numbers, and
17 the reason for such changes, so that we can furnish
respective counsel with a copy.
18
If the reading and signing has not been completed
19 prior to the above-referenced date, we shall
conclude that you have waived the reading and
20 signing of the deposition transcript.
21 Your prompt attention to this matter is appreciated.
22 Sincerely,
23 LUCY LOVELL,
Court Reporter
24
cc: All counsel on appearance page
25

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0 33131 43:2 44:2 abut 30:19 35:19

01 1:4 33157-6817 2:8 access 19:23,25 apart 29:17
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1
375-5151 2:5 16:21 appearances 2:1
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2014 8:6 5326 7:3,9,12,15,18 al 4:9 aside 31:25
2015 8:5,6 9:10,10,24 10:5,14 allegation 30:17,19 asked 6:6 8:8
2017 1:16 4:5 39:3 10:19 13:13,18,22 31:1 asking 17:14 24:1
39:16 40:4 41:10 14:6 16:15 17:19 allegations 20:1 31:14 32:1,1,23,25
41:13 42:7,18 43:3 19:7 altered 30:18 36:24 aspects 34:21
43:5 44:4,9 5327 34:10 37:6 assisted 42:11
2021 41:18 5726 6:18 7:5,8 amount 13:25 associates 12:18
2250 43:1 44:1 585 2:9 angell 2:3 3:4 4:18 assuming 23:11
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28 43:3 44:4 30:14 31:24 32:17 43:21
8
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3
9 angellc 2:3 attorney's 4:7
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305 2:5 43:2 44:2 a.m. 1:17 4:6 38:18 anticipate 5:11 available 43:6,11
33128-1902 2:5 43:14 anybody 14:5 44:10
44:7 able 13:1 29:3 19:13 29:25 30:16

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average 28:15 blau 14:8,9,11 characterized 25:5 conclude 43:19

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30:12 39:1,13 40:3 define 9:7 downloaded 16:15 engagement 17:5

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fine 5:20,24 functioning 12:10 hey 29:7 interview 21:25

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k 4:21 38:6 38:16 43:8 mangrove 25:20 n
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obtain 20:22 pay 13:16,22 21:5 pmb 2:8 43:8 psychological

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 FLORIDA RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE

Rule 1.310

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signing or the witness is ill, cannot be found, or

refuses to sign. If the transcript is not signed by

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the transcript and state on the transcript the

waiver, illness, absence of the witness, or refusal

to sign with any reasons given therefor. The

deposition may then be used as fully as though

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rule 1.330(d)(4).

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