INTERVIEW WITH MR.

MA CHUANXU, LIANG STYLE

BAGUAZHANG EXPERT FROM BEIJING AND PRESIDENT OF
BEIJING BAGUAZHANG RESEARCH ASSOCIATION

BY JAREK SZYMANSKI

Photos - Jarek Szymanski and from author's collection; J.Szymanski 2001

Mr.Ma Chuanxu, president of Mr.Ma Chuanxu was born in 1933

the Beijing Baguazhang in Boye County in Hebei Province
Research Association in the family of long martial arts
tradition. At the age of nine he was
introduced to Shaolin Boxing by
his father. In 1951 his family
moved to Beijing where he has
been living since then. In 1961 he
started to study Baguazhang under
Li Ziming, Liang Zhenpu's disciple
and Dong Haichuan's grand-
disciple. He also learnt
Xingyiquan, Tanglangquan (Mantis
Boxing), Taijiquan and
Tongbeiquan from many renowned
old generation practitioners in
Beijing. In 1978 Mr.Ma was
employed by Beijing Municipality
Public Security Bureau as martial
arts coach. In the meantime he
also taught as well as performed
security services for the Beijing
Railway Bureau. He retired in
1993. Also since 1993 he has been
the president of Beijing
Baguazhang Research Association.

Mr.Ma Chuanxu is a living legend among current practitioners of

Baguazhang in Beijing. Unlike many other teachers he gained his
fame not by winning routines competitions or appearing in martial
arts magazines but because of his fighting skills tested in many life-
and-death fights with bandits during years of service in Public
Security Bureau. Only recently one of his colleagues from PSB
revealed some of Ma's feats in one of Chinese martial arts magazines -
Ma Chuanxu defeated several art smugglers during a fight; caught
several drug dealers; "cleaned" train station in China's Zhengzhou of
thieves and bandits (he alone caught more than 110 of them within a
month). He did it all without using any weapon. He is probably the
only person practicing internal martial arts who was employed as the
main martial arts coach by Beijing Municipality Public Security
Bureau. Many of his students now serve as bodyguards for high rank
government officials in China. I have heard about him since my arrival
to China in 1990 - "Big Beard" Ma (Ma Dahuzi) was considered to be
the true inheritor of Li Ziming's and Guo Gumin's Baguazhang - but
never had a chance to meet him. The occasion arose in November
2000 - so I called him and he invited me to his house and agreed for
interview. I found many of his explanations to be very clear and
shedding light on many issues - like Neigong, features of Neijia, Qi
development - that are often discussed but rarely understood by
martial arts practitioners. The interview below is basically full
transcription of the conversation recorded on the audio tape.

Jarek Szymanski: Mr.Ma, you are well-known in martial arts circles

in Beijing but it is impossible to see you during any Bagua
competitions or meetings here...

MR.MA CHUANXU: I was working for Public Security Bureau since

1978 and was teaching special forces. My official post was the
General Martial Arts Coach of Beijing Municipality Public Security
Bureau. For this reason I could not take part in many public activities,
including Bagua Meetings, nor have contacts with foreigners.

JS: As a foreigner I wouldn't be allowed to visit you before?

MR.MA: Yes, it was impossible before my retirement. There is no

problem now - I retired in 1993.

JS: You are very famous for your fighting skills. It is not very common
nowadays that Neijia practitioners can effectively fight. When did you
start your martial arts practice?

MR.MA: I started to learn martial arts when I was nine years old. My
family was practicing Shaolin boxing for many generations and it was
my first style to learn. In my village two styles were popular - Shaolin
and Da Hong Quan, but there were more people who practiced
Shaolin. I can't say what branch it was as nobody really paid any
attention to names at that time. Our village was very big and there
was a Buddhist temple there. My grandfather learnt from a monk who
lived in that temple. I learnt from my father and what he taught was
not routines but basics of Shaolin boxing, mainly stretching and
kicking. He was a very strict teacher and often hit me with stick when
I did not practice diligently. I had to perform front kicks with straight
leg so that the toes could touch my nose or the chin. When I was in my
thirties I was still able to pass below a wooden bench from its one side
to the other using Pu Bu very quickly. The bench was so low that my
chest had to touch the floor during the movement...

There were many exercises we had to practice, like Running on the

Wall (Pao Qiang)...

JS: How did you practice this?

MR.MA: First you lean a wooden board against the wall at a small
angle (between the board and the ground). Then you just run on the
board towards the wall and back. Your body has to be kept vertical to
the ground. Later the angle between the board and the ground
increases and finally the board is removed so that you just run directly
up the wall. As the result your toes can touch the shin.

JS: You reached certain level in Shaolin Boxing. Why didn't you
continue your studies but instead decided to learn Baguazhang?

MR.MA: This is because my father (who was my Shaolin Boxing

teacher) told me that Baguazhang was extremely efficient martial art,
very demanding for legs, but different from Shaolin's basics. He said
that what could be achieved by Shaolin Boxing practice could also be
achieved through Bagua practice; however there were skills that
could be acquired only through Bagua and not through Shaolin. My
father also said that Baguazhang was a higher level martial art than
Shaolin Boxing; that it was the highest level art among all styles.
Xingyi emphasizes Crisp Power, Taiji - Sticky Power, while Bagua -
Clever Power (Xingyi Wei Cui, Taiji Wei Nian, Bagua Wei Qiao). The
best methods and techniques off all styles have been synthesized into
Baguazhang.

JS: What does it mean that Bagua uses "Clever Power"?

MR.MA: "Clever Power" in Bagua is expressed by its techniques and

strategy. Its like going somewhere - taking a longer way or shorter. In
Waijia you take a longer way, while Bagua practice is the shortest way
to fighting efficiency supported by internal skill.

JS: Why did you decide to become Li Ziming's student?

MR.MA: It was by coincidence. When I learnt that a colleague from
the factory I worked in was Li Ziming's student and studied Bagua, I
asked him to take me to the park they practiced. Since I already had
some skill and my waist and legs flexibility was very good, Mr.Li liked
me and when I asked to be accepted as his student he immediately
agreed.

JS: When did you start to learn from Li Ziming?

MR.MA: In 1961.

JS: When did you become Li Ziming's disciple (indoor student)?

MR.MA: In 1976. This is because Li Ziming did not accept any

disciples when Guo Gumin (1887-1968; Li Ziming's Shixiong - Older
Gongfu Brother) was alive, and then the Cultural Revolution (1966-
1976) came. Actually we were more like friends with Mr.Li. Li Ziming's children were
calling me "Uncle". I also learnt many techniques and practice methods from Guo
Gumin.

Li Ziming, native of Ji County in

Hebei Province; in 1921 started to Li Ziming (1904-1993) was Ma
study Baguazhang from Liang Chuanxu's master and main
Zhenpu and became his disciple; teacher
also learnt from Shang Yunxiang,
Zhang Zhankui and Ju Qingyuan;
often exchanged skills with Guo
Gumin, Li Shao'an and Zeng
Xingsan; in 1979 in order to
protect Dong Haichuan's tomb he
suggested to move it to Wan'an
Public Cemetery from the old
location; on August 2nd and 3rd,
1980 a group of over 100 Beijing
Baguazhang practitioners under
his leadership moved Dong's
remains as well as accompanying
stone tablets to the new location in
Wan'an Public Cemetery. In 1981
the first single-style research
association in China - Beijing
Baguazhang Research Association
- was established and Li Ziming
was elected its first president, he
held this title until his death in
1993. Li Ziming was buried at
Wan'an Public Cemetery near
Dong Haichuan's tomb.

(According to "Chinese Martial Arts

Personages Dictionary", "The Dictionary
of Contemporary Chinese Martial Arts
Practitioners" and article by Wang Tong in
"Wuhun" 1993/4)

JS: Is that true that Li Ziming learnt a lot from Guo Gumin?

MR.MA: Yes, it's true. They were Gongfu brothers (disciples of the
same master - Liang Zhenpu), but Guo Gumin was professional
martial art teacher. Li Ziming was younger than Guo and was busy
running his business - he was the owner of the largest (prior to 1949)
soya sauce mill in Beijing. Mr.Li was also engaged in underground
work and covered many Communist Party officials, including Wan Li
and Liu Ren, who became vice-mayors of Beijing after 1949. After
liberation in 1949 Li Ziming was holding important posts - was
director of foodstuffs factory and beer brewery - and before Cultural
Revolution was promoted to controller position in the First Light
Industry Bureau in Beijing.

JS: What happened during Cultural Revolution?

MR.MA: Of course he came under attack, had to resign from all posts
and was persecuted.

JS: Did you practice during Cultural Revolution?

MR.MA: Only I continued Bagua study with Li Ziming during that

time. There had been about five, six of us who learnt Bagua from Li
Ziming in early 1960s, but they all gave up later and I was the only
one who kept on the Bagua study.

JS: So you became Li Ziming's disciple in 1976?

MR.MA: Yes, in 1976 when Cultural Revolution was over. There were
about eight persons at that time who were accepted by Li Ziming as
indoor disciples, including Zhao Dayuan, Wang Tong, Sun Hongyan,
Ma Ling, Wang Shitong and Di Guoyong. Since at that time Li Ziming
was already quite old and did not practice much, getting more
interested in traditional Chinese painting and calligraphy, many of
them learnt from me.

JS: Many people say that you are quite conservative in teaching and
are very reluctant to pass some Bagua methods to students...

MR.MA: I emphasize Bagua basics a lot. They are very important and
if the student does not practice them correctly, according to my
requirements, then it is like throwing all the things I teach away. It is
not that I'm conservative but the problem is that many students do not
study hard and never get satisfactory level of basic skills. Learning
techniques and routines is without any value if the basics are not
good.

JS: How can you develop basics?

MR.MA: The are several methods. The most basic of them is walking
in a circle. It is divided into three so-called "basins" (San Pan): Lower
Basin, Medium Basin and Upper Basin. Yin-Yang concept is very
important as well - that's why we often call Bagua "Yin-Yang Bagua".
Walking counter-clockwise is Yang, while clockwise - Yin. There are
many requirements for walking practice: Hollow the Chest and Pulling
Up the Back (Kong Xiong Ba Bei), Collapse the Waist (Xia Ta Yao),
Twist Hips and Keep Knees Together (Niu Kua He Xi), Grasp the
Ground Firmly with Toes (Zhua Di Lao); Drop the Shoulders and Sink
the Elbows (Chui Jian Chen Zhou), Smooth Buttocks and Lift the
Grain Path (anus) (Liu Tun Ti Gang), Three Pressing (Head Presses,
Tongue Presses and Hands Press creating One Energy) and Three
Round Principles (San Ding - Tou Ding She Ding Shou Ding Hunyuan
Yi Qi - San Yuan). Only if all these requirements are strictly observed
Internal Qi (Nei Qi) will appear and Neigong (Internal Skill) will
develop. Once Neigong develops, it's like electricity in hands.

JS: What do you mean "electricity in hands"?

MR.MA: The Intent becomes important. Intent drives Qi and Qi drives

Strength (Yi Dai Qi Qi Dai Li). One has to develop Qi of Dantian to
make use of it - and only then we can call it Neigong.

JS: So what is "Neigong"?

MR.MA: Neigong is Dantian. You have to attain high skill in Intent

(Yinian) practice and develop sufficient Internal Qi. It's like electricity.
Dantian, three inches below belly button, once developed is like a
leather ball. Dantian becomes the place where all Internal Qi of your
body gathers, it's like electric field. Then Qi - which is felt as a stream
of heat - flows from Hui Yin Point through lumbar vertebra, cervical
vertebra, Bai Hui Point (the hot feeling is extremely strong there), Mu
Quan Point, Tian Mu Point, Ren Tong Point. The most difficult place
for Qi to pass is where Ren and Du Vessels meet - you have to keep
the mouth closed and the tongue has to touch upper palate, breathing
should be through nose (not like in Long Fist Boxing where after some
exercises practitioners have to use mouth to catch the breath); then
Qi flows down back to Dantian and completes one full circle - Small
Heavenly Circle (Xiao Zhou Tian).

JS: Is there any specific feeling you have when the Small Heavenly
Circle opens?

MR.MA: Of course. Once Small Heavenly Circle is opened a lot of

saliva appears in the mouth and when you practice you feel as
comfortable as if swimming.

JS: Do you need to use any Intent (Yi) to lead Qi flow?

MR.MA: No, you should not think about Qi when you practice. Small
Heavenly Circle will open naturally, not intentionally, when your
Neigong reaches this level. However your practice has to be
supervised by a competent teacher.

JS: Is it enough to open Small Heavenly Circle?

MR.MA: No, you have to open the Large Heavenly Circle so that Qi
can reach your hands. This also takes time and you have to think first
- use Intent (Yi) - to drive Qi to the hands. Once Qi follows your Intent,
the next step is to be able to move Qi without any conscious effort.
The Qi will behave like mercury - once you strike with the hand it
immediately flows from out of Dantian, waist, and reaches the hand.
The hand will be felt by the opponent as very heavy. Only at this
moment you can start learning Bagua techniques and movements.

Guo Gumin (also known as Guo
Enpu or Guo Decang) was
originally from Jizhou in Hebei
Province. Born in 1887, he was
interested in martial arts since
childhood. At the age of 14 Guo
started to serve an apprenticeship
at Liang Zhenpu's secondhand
clothes shop and learn
Baguazhang from Liang (Liang
was one of Dong Haichuan's
disciples). At the age of 20 Guo
was accepted by Liang Zhenpu as
indoor disciple. Since that time
martial arts became Guo's
profession. As early as in 1920s
Guo Gumin was already teaching
Baguazhang in many places in
Beijing.
After Japan invited China in 1937
Guo was invited by Japanese
Embassy to teach martial arts. He
rejected the invitation and had to
flee to Jinan in Shandong
Province, where he taught martial
arts to the army of one of the local
warlords, Han Fuju.
Han first tested Guo's skill - he
demanded that Guo would fight
with his best spear experts using
wooden spears. Fifty were chosen
out of three hundred and Guo
suggested that each of them
should pierce him three times. As
the result none of them was able
to pierce Guo and none managed
to avoid Guo's three stabs...
After the war Guo returned to
Beijing and was teaching martial
arts at Beijing's Furen University.
After the liberation in 1949 Guo
taught mainly in Beijing parks. He
passed away in 1968 at the age of
81, his body was cremated and the
ashes kept by his disciple, Su Shen
until 1984, when two other Guo's
disciples, Liu Jiemin and Wang
Qichang, moved them to Beijing's
Wan'an Public Cemetery. His tomb
is located by the side of Dong
Haichuan's tomb.
Guo was short and thin; he never
got married and devoted his whole
 life to martial arts. He not only
mastered Liang Zhenpu's
Baguazhang, but also learnt from
and exchanged skills with many
other renowned martial arts
experts of his time - mainly "Big
Spear" Liu (Liu Dekuan), but also
Shi Jidong , Yin Fu, Liu Fengchun
(all were Dong Haichuan's
disciples), Han Fushun (Shi
Jidong's disciple), Ma Gui (Yin Fu's
disciple), Yin Yuzhang (Yin Fu's
son), Zeng Xingsan (Yin Fu's
disciple) and others.

Guo Gumin was not only

accomplished martial artist, but
could also speak English and was
a good painter. He wrote two
books: "Complete Book of Bagua
Boxing" (Bagua Quanshu Jicheng)
and "Collected Texts on Bagua
Rotating Palm" (Bagua
Guo Gumin (1887-1968) was
Zhuanzhang Huilan). The first one
one of Ma Chuanxu's teachers
contains names of Bagua
techniques and routines as well as
practice methods, while the other
- history and - for the very first
time - theory of Baguazhang.

(According to the article "Great

Baguazhang master - Guo Gumin" by Wu
Yue published in "Wuhun" 1998/1)

JS: Does it mean that all Bagua movements are designed in such a
way that one must have Neigong first to be really able to use them?

MR.MA: Exactly. Without Neigong all Bagua techniques are good for
nothing and there is no use to practice them. For this reason I'm not
willing to teach any techniques to students who do not have Internal
Skill - it's waste of time for them and me.

JS: I guess very few people can learn in this traditional way?
MR.MA: Yes, practitioners often feel that walking exercise is very
boring and give it up after some time. However once your Neigong
develops, once the Small Heavenly Circle opens, the practice becomes
very interesting.

JS: Does Shaolin Boxing have similar methods?

MR.MA: No, it does not.

JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having
sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open.
Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me

that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must
be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma,
who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study
Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to
live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return
home even once during that time.

Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse.
i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred
days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e.
recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is
required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families
will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...

MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin

(Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide
to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity.

JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling

that requirement?

MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding
practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower
Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like
having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then
transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one
dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you
transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be
able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may
get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease.
This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice -
weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by
coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is
most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to
make the decision to become like a monk for three years...

JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the
Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?

MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open
naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years,
Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi
Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true
skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of
sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill
completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.

JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill?

MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and
strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had
remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This
was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was
never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I
was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming
back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I
was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday,
without even one day of rest.

JS: But in this way you did not sleep enough. You did not have enough
rest.

MR.MA: Correct practice is better than sleep. What you practice is

Internal Skill, it nourishes your body.

JS: You are almost 70 now. Do you still practice everyday?

MR.MA: I get up early in the morning and practice for three hours,
everyday. (Mr.Ma's wife added that he does it everyday no matter
what the weather is, even on Chinese New Year, the most important
festival in China)

JS: Back in the 1960s did you practice any other exercises apart from
walking in a circle? Some forms of sitting meditation or standing pole
(Zhan Zhuang)?
MR.MA: Sitting or standing meditation are for Neigong only. Walking
practice is also called "Moving Pole" (Huo Zhuang/Xing Zhuang) and
has very important advantage - it develops both Waigong (External
Practice) and Neigong at the same time. When you walk in a circle,
you nourish your Internal Qi every minute, you build it stronger and
stronger. That's why walking in a circle is so important and at the
same time so difficult to understand.

JS: Did you learn and "Light Skill" (Qing Gong) as well?

MR.MA: Walking in a circle develops "Light Skill". Once you reach a

certain level you are able to walk without touching the ground.

JS: How is that possible?

MR.MA: The idea is to use your Dantian, waist, to move. I'm sitting
here right now. If you want to attack me I can move fast forward
without using legs, but by straightening the waist. (Mr.Ma made a
demonstration - from a sitting position he was able to move fast very
far forward before he touched the floor with his legs).

JS: It all sounds and looks very mysterious...

MR.MA: It is not mysterious at all, it's just a matter of skill, of hard

practice.

JS: How did it happen that people learnt about you?

MR.MA: I learnt not only from Li Ziming but also from Han Lanyu
(Wu Xing Chui expert, Bao Zhang's disciple), Guo Gumin (Baguazhang
expert, Liang Zhenpu's disciple), "Tong Bei" Li, Han Qichang (of Mei
Hua Zhuang). My teacher used to take me to all these teachers and
usually I had to fight with their disciples. This is how people started to
know about me...

JS: I have heard that you also defeated one quite famous foreign
martial artist?

MR.MA: There was one foreigner, whose Xingyi was very good. He
wanted to study with Li Ziming and become his disciple. Many of Li's
students like Zhao Dayuan and Wang Tong were there. They all
crossed hands with the foreigner and lost. His Xingyi was very
impressive - when he demonstrated it, in the opening movement all
his joints were cracking. His External Skill was really good, but his
Internal Skill was not. He did not use his strength correctly - held it
back in his own body, tensed his muscles too much, had no roots.
JS: You mean one has to be relaxed when practicing Bagua?

MR.MA: In Bagua we say "walk

like a monkey" - light and "clever" Ma Chuanxu demonstrating
(Qiao)... "Pushing and Grinding Palm"
(Tui Mo Zhang) - one of eight
JS: "clever"? basic walking postures of Liang
Zhenpu's Baguazhang
MR.MA: "Shrink, Be Soft like
Cotton and Clever" (Suo Xiao
Mian Ruan Qiao) so that you can
shrink your body, without using
any strength, relaxed, like a
spring, that can be released in any
time, but only upon contact with
the opponent, never before. Trying
to use power on distance is not
effective.

JS: Is this so-called "One-Inch-

Power" (Cun Jin) that you are
talking about?

MR.MA: Yes, in Neijia we strike

using One-Inch-Power. Hitting
from a distance is not effective as
it does not really hurt the
opponent. The worst what can
happen are some bruises that can
heal in few days. When I strike my
opponent I want him to spit with
blood...This is the reason we
emphasize Neigong so much.
When you have Neigong, if you
want to hurt the opponent, you
can hurt him; if you want to push
him into the air like a leather ball,
you can do it as well at will.

JS: Have you ever practiced any hardening or strengthening methods?

MR.MA: No, I did not. These exercises develop external, stiff power.
What we want is the Internal Qi which drives all the movements. It's
like mercury, once you strike it's there, once you withdraw - it returns
as well. It's flexible, alive.
JS: Apart from hand techniques one must also master footwork and be
able to use legs when striking.

MR.MA: Qi arrives and Strenght (Li) arrives. That means we have to

practice to achieve "harmony" (He). Hands, eyes, body and footwork
have to combine (He) into one. Once we strike they all arrive at the
same time, body becomes one, "coordinated power of the whole body"
(Zheng Jin) is used. We develop it through practicing walking the
circle, single techniques, routines. In Taijiquan there is a saying
"When the opponent does not move, I do not move either; once the
opponent moves, I move first" (Bi Bu Dong Wo Bu Dong; Bi Yi Dong
Wo Xian Dong). One has to achieve "harmony" of the whole body so
that it moves as one to be able to move like this. This is called true
"harmony" (He).

JS: It is easy to understand the first part of the saying :"When the
opponent does not move, I do not move either" but could you explain
the second part?

MR.MA: "Once the opponent moves, I move first". This means once
the opponent decides to move, there is a very short moment when he
prepares to attack. You should be able to notice this moment and
strike when it is not over yet. This requires very good Neigong and
high skill - timing and speed.

JS: Some people say that Bagua is not as soft as Taijiquan, its softness
is of different quality. What do you think about it? Should one be
completely relaxed when walking in a circle?

MR.MA: One should be relaxed (Song) but at the same time look for
"coordinated power of the whole body" (Zheng). One should keep the
"coordinated power of the whole body" (Zheng) but at the same time
relax (Song). It is very difficult to find balance between these two
states. One should also avoid excessive tension when looking for
"coordinated power of the whole body" (Zheng). Softness is very
important in fighting - when the opponent strikes hard you can only
use softness to overcome his hardness. We call it "To overcome
Hardness with Softness" (Yi Rou Ke Gang) or "To Overcome One
Thousand Pounds with a Clever Method" (Yi Qiao Po Qian Jin). You
need softness to use these methods.

JS: What do you mean by softness?

MR.MA: The body has to express the "coordinated power of the

whole body" (Zheng) all the time, be relaxed, move in spirals.
 JS: What do you mean by "move in
Ma Chuanxu in "Yin-Yang Fish" spirals"?
Palm (Yin Yang Yu Zhang)
developing spiraling power of MR.MA: There should be axles all
the body over the body. There should be
axles in shoulders, wrists, elbows,
hips, knees. When you touch this
part of the body, there is an axle
here; when you touch another
part, there's an axle there too. The
body should not be sloppy.
Wherever you touch, there's an
axle there and it moves in a
spiraling way (luoxuan). The power
has to a be spiraling one and only
then it can overcome opponent's
power.

JS: Can you use this "Spiraling

Power" (Luo Xuan Jin) in fighting?

MR.MA: If the opponent touches

any part of your body, this part
should express "Spiraling Power".
Guo Gumin was famous for his
"Raising Palm" (Tiao Zhang), also
know as "Hand Thunder" (Zhang
Shou Lei) technique. It was based
on Spiraling Power used to uproot
the opponent upon contact and
then hit him which ended with
opponent sent flying. Any
technique should have this
spiraling component inside.

JS: When you walk in a circle shall

you also express this spiraling
power?

MR.MA: Of course you shall. You should walk like a heavy transporter
which moves smoothly no matter how bad the road is, whether its
wheels get into a hole or meet a stone. One should not over-emphasize
grasping the ground with toes (Shi Zhi Zhua Di) as this may result in
stiff (dead - Si) power.
JS: What about "Mud Wading Step" (Tang Ni Bu)?

MR.MA: There is a saying "Walk as if rubbing the ground but you

must not rub the ground" (Xing Er Ca Xing Mo Yao Ca). The meaning
is that feet should move close to the ground, not too high. The second
part of this saying - "you must not rub the ground" - is most important.
You should walk like a monkey, feet should be placed on the ground
very lightly. You must not rub the ground with the soles, otherwise the
power will be dispersed.

JS: I have seen some Bagua practitioners who, after they make a step
with the front leg and before they put it on the ground, "throw" the
body forward so that the front foot can move more forward. Is this a
correct way of practicing "Mud Wading Step"?

MR.MA: No, it is not correct. You should never lose control over your
gravity center, because the power of the body will be dispersed.

JS: Their explanation is that this way of practice allows them to

advance and cut the distance faster...

MR.MA: You should use the waist to drive your body forward, for
advancing. Body should be like a (spinning) top, with center of gravity
well controlled. The center of gravity should be always on the front
leg. You have to "smooth the buttocks and Lift Anus", assume a
posture similar to that when sitting on a chair, then the waist drives
your legs, center of gravity is on the front foot, and you can advance
very fast. (Mr.Ma demonstrated this way of walking)

JS: You are known to be a very strict teacher. Do you have many
students who reached a satisfactory skill level?

MR.MA: I can think of two, they both work in the Beijing Municipality
Public Security Bureau. One of them, Chen Xiangxian, is the main
martial arts coach there. He took that post when I retired in 1993.

JS: What do you think about the level of Bagua practitioners in

Beijing?

MR.MA: The level of current practitioners, teachers, is far below that

of old generation masters. People like Fan Fenglan, Guo Gumin, Gao
Ziying had true gongfu, which can hardly be said about current
generation. This is in spite of the fact that many of them publish books
and are getting increasing popularity.
JS: When did you became the head of Bejing Baguazhang Research
Association?

MR.MA: In 1993 when my teacher, Li Ziming passed away. I took over

the position of the president of the Association.

JS: What Bagua branches belong to the Association?

MR.MA: All Bagua branches practiced in Beijing area are

represented in the Association. These are Yin Fu's, Cheng Tinghua's,
Liang Zhenpu's, Fan Zhiyong's and Song Changrong's branches. Song
branch has very few practitioners. We have meetings every month.
During this year's election I was again elected the president of the
Association and Gao Jiwu (late Gao Ziying's son), Wen Dasheng (Fan
Fenglan's disciple), Wang Shanzhi (Wang Fu's son; Wang Fu studied
Yin style from Yin Fu's son, Yin Yuzhang) - vice-presidents; Jia Suosen
is the secretary.

JS: Did you study Taijiquan?

MR.MA: Yes, I learnt Shanxi Taijiquan from my teacher (Li Ziming); I

also learnt a bit from Gao Ziying and Bao Zhang's son, Han Lanyu.
Once you really master one martial art than it is very easy to learn
other styles. Learning hundreds of techniques and routines is useless.
We call it "Once one is mastered all are understood" (Yi Tong Bai
Tong).

JS: Do you think Taiji and Xingyi should build similar Internal Skill to
Bagua?

MR.MA: Yes, all these styles should emphasize Neigong.

JS: What about Shaolin?

MR.MA: Late Liu Wancang, practicing both hard styles and Taijiquan
(Wu Jianquan's branch; he taught in Ditan Park) was very advanced in
Neigong. He was very strong and used to exercise with 40 kg heavy
stone balls. Besides there were also quite a few Shaolin practitioners
(like the late Hu Laodao teaching in Taoranting Part in Beijing) who
reached high Neigong level.

JS: Was their power like the mercury - what you just mentioned
talking about Bagua's Neigong?

MR.MA: No, their Internal Skill was not that good. Although they
reached relatively high level of Neigong, it was still inferior to the one
that correctly practiced Neijia styles allow for. I do not think external
styles can achieve the highest levels.

JS: Have you practiced any strength building methods (like the one
mentioned above - stone ball).

MR.MA: No, I have never practiced them.

JS: What about long spear (Da Qiang)?

MR.MA: Yes, I practiced with long spear. It's length is one Zhang and
two Chi (about 4 meters). I learnt Bagua Long Spear exercises from Li
Ziming. The goal is to build the power and learn correct body method
(Shenfa) - opening the joints and "pulling out" the power (dynamically stretching the
tendons). This method has to be used to improve one's skill. People who do not practice
martial arts have rather stiff joints which limit their range of movements. By long spear
practice one can open the joints, increase their flexibility and hence improve agility of
movements.

Ma Chuanxu practicing with Bagua Broadsword

JS: What about other Bagua weapons? What is the goal of practice
with weapons in Bagua?

MR.MA: Every weapon has its characteristics and is practiced to

achieve specific goal. Taking as example Bagua Broadsword - it is
used to exercise Twisting (Ning), Wrapping (Guo), Drilling (Zuan) and
Overturning (Fan). Twisting is for body method (Shenfa). Bagua
Broadsword is big - four Chi two Cun (about 1.2m) - and the main
principle for its practice is "you walk (move) but the broadsword does
not move" (Ren Zou Dao Bu Dong); "it is not the man who plays with
the broadsword but the broadsword that plays with the man" (Dao
Shua Ren Bu Shi Ren Shua Dao). My broadsword is long and big and
always points at the opponent so it is not easy for him to enter. Once
he attacks I just use "Overturn" (Fan) and cut his arm with the
broadsword.

JS: So do you practice Bagua broadsword techniques or improve your

Shenfa through broadsword practice?

MR.MA: Both. Not only you can learn how to use the broadsword, but
what is more important - improve your Bagua skills, especially the
body movements. It is said "Man follows the broadsword, broadsword
moves with the man" (Ren Sui Dao Zou, Dao Sui Ren Xing).

JS: Which weapon is the most important in Bagua?

MR.MA: All are very important and none is really important. The
most important is Gongfu - the skill. Once you have the skill you can
use anything as a weapon. It has no use to learn lots of weapon
routines - once you have Gongfu than learning weapons is very easy.

JS: What about the straight sword?

MR.MA: Broadsword and straight sword methods are not separated

(Dao Jian Bu Fen) in spite of the fact that the sword has different
structure than the broadsword.

JS: What are the features of Bagua spear?

MR.MA: In Bagua we have Bagua Long Spear and Short Spear. The
latter is also called "Snake with Two Heads" (Shuang Tou She) as it
has spearheads on both ends. Its main feature is using long weapon
on short distance (Chang Qiang Duan Yong) and it differs from typical
spear methods of "Lan Na Zha". In Bagua you redirect opponent's
spear with one end of your weapon and strike him with the other end.
Once you can apply the principle of "using long weapon on short
distance" than you can effectively use a short stick even against a
broadsword. This can be easily seen in techniques of another typical
Bagua weapon - Seven Star Stick (Qi Xing Gan) - which is mainly
used for point striking. While using long weapon one has to be able to
use so-called "flexible grasp" (Huo Ba) which allows for changing the
grasp of the weapon without loosing contact with it.

JS: Are there matched routines in Baguazhang?

MR.MA: Yes, we have quite a few matched routines practiced with
partner. Probably the most famous and one of the most treasured is
"Four Matched Routines of Chopping Broadsword" (Si Tang Dui Pi
Dao); other are: "Matched Routine of Chopping Swords" (Dui Pi Jian),
"Matched Routine of Chopping Sticks" (Dui Pi Gan), as well as
"Seventy Two Seizes" (Qi'Shi'Er Na), "Seventy Two Linked Kicks"
(Qi'Shi'Er Jie Tui), "Eight Main Seizes" (Liu Ba Zong Na), "Seventy
Two Techniques" (Qi'Shi'Er Zhao) and others.

JS: What are the features of Bagua free fighting?

MR.MA: Bagua free fighting is different from other styles. The most
important feature is that both hands move towards the opponent at
the same time. In other styles when one hand moves towards the
opponent the other is drawn back. In Bagua it is important to strike
fast and for this reason both hands move towards the target
simultaneously. Hands have to move fast, footwork has to be fast as
well, only then one can achieve what is called "excellency" (Bagua Wei
Qiao). There is a saying "change in fighting is in front of you" (Bian
Hua Zai Qian Tou) which means that the change of technique in
fighting is in fast hands method, not in the whole body.

JS: Each of Bagua branches uses different shape of palm...

MR.MA: Yes, Cheng branch uses "Eagle Claw Power" (Ying Zhao Li),
Yin branch - "Piercing Energy" (Yi Qi Guan Tong), Liang branch -
"Palm like Rows of Tiles on the Roof" (Wa Long Zhang, because the
fingers are placed one on each other like tiles on a roof). Dong's
disciples were taught in different ways according to the style they had
learnt prior to Bagua study; this is the reason they have developed
their own styles with distinctive characteristics. Their hand
techniques and body methods are different. However all of them
should express the "Spiraling Power" (Luo Xuan Jin). This concerns
not only Neijia, but also Waijia styles.

JS: Do you teach your students in a different way depending on their

body structure? Do you teach tall people in a different way then short
ones?

MR.MA: No, I teach them in the same way. Although it is said that tall
people have difficulties in going into low postures, the real question is
only whether they spent enough time on practice. It is not true that
Bagua suits shorter people better than taller ones - all of them have
their advantages, but have to practice hard to be able to make use of
them.
JS: How many students do you have? Is it difficult to become your
"indoor disciple" (Rumen Tudi)?

MR.MA: I have about 60, 70 indoor disciples. They had to learn from
me for at least three years before I accepted them as disciples - I have
to test morality of my potential disciples.

JS: What do you teach?

MR.MA: What I teach to my students depends mainly on their level. As I mentioned

before there is no use to learn many techniques and routines if you do not have good
basics. The first three years of practice are very important as this is the shortest time to
get the basics of Neigong - Small Heavenly Circle can be opened; however high skill
requires about ten years to achieve. By high skill I mean being able to move and respond
naturally, without assuming any postures or thinking about using any techniques. To
attain the highest levels you not only have to practice diligently, but also have to be
gifted.

JS: What do you mean by "gifted"?

Ma Chuanxu in Fork Palm
(Chazi Zhang), also called Ball- MR.MA: One has to be intelligent,
Playing Palm (Rou Qiu Zhang) has to have strong Power of
Understanding (Wuxing). It is as
important as practice. They both
are required if one wants to
achieve the highest level of skill.
One has to be "good material" to
become a true martial artists.

JS: "Good material"?

MR.MA: As I said before - one has

to be clever, modest, able to
practice hard, with high moral
standards. If somebody is very
clever but sly and cunning, such a
person will never achieve much in
martial arts. One has to be
steadfast in practice, honest, with
interest in learning martial arts,
true "Martial Virtue" (Wu De). I do
not teach clever people who are
not honest.

JS: Do you teach children?

MR.MA: Very few. In China children study very hard at school and do
not have much free time.

JS: How old are your oldest students?

MR.MA: The oldest ones who start learning from me are in their 40s
and 50s. Some of them practice very well. Although their Wushu
basics - understood as flexibility and strength of waist and legs -
cannot compare to that of young children, but they make good
progress in Neigong. This is absolutely sufficient to be able to make
good use of Bagua in fighting.

JS: Do you think it is necessary to learn Waijia before taking up

Neijia?

MR.MA: No matter whether you learn Neijia or Waijia, you should

first develop flexibility of legs and waist. Once you have these basics
you can make faster progress in Neijia. Hence some kind of Waijia
practice - Wushu basics - can be helpful for your Neijia. Of course
these basics can be also acquired through pure Neijia practice, but it
takes more time. Waijia can be considered a shortcut in learning
basics. There is however a difference - flexibility you get through
Bagua practice comes out naturally along the practice process and
cannot be lost, while in Waijia flexibility of legs comes from regular
stretching - once you give up stretching exercises the flexibility
decreases very fast - usually after three months without practice the
flexibility is gone. In Bagua once you can walk in the Lower Basin (Xia
Pan) the flexibility of legs greatly increases.

JS: What is the characteristics of Lower Basin (Xia Pan)?

MR.MA: The definition is that in Lower Basin hips and knees are on
one level - like sitting on a low chair. I used to practice walking in
Lower Basin for one hour without rest. My son has been practicing
walking in Lower Basin for six years, for two hours every day, so his
Lower Basin skill is acceptable. Once the true skill - Neigong - in
Lower Basin is attained, the practitioner has the feeling that his feet
do not touch the ground while walking. We talked about it already...

JS: Mr.Ma, thank you very much for your time and generosity of
sharing all this knowledge!
NOTE - for detailed explanations concerning requirements for
Baguazhang practice as mentioned by Mr.Ma please refer to excerpts
from Liu Jingru's book.

End of "Interview with Mr.Ma Chuanxu, Liang style Baguazhang

expert from Beijing"; J.Szymanski 2001

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