Professional Documents
Culture Documents
While in Stavanger, Norway attending the 13th International Symposium for the
Psychological Treatments of the Schizophrenias and Other Psychoses, June 5 - 8, 2000, I had the
honor to spend time with Gaetano Benedetti, MD and his younger colleague in the field of
schizophrenia, Maurizio Peciccia, MD. For six months prior to my encounter with Professor
Benedetti, I had been meeting with several colleagues on a biweekly basis to discuss the clinical
theories of Drs. Benedetti and Peciccia and to compare these with the work of Harold Searles, MD.
I would like to thank those colleagues and friends who participated in that seminar: Paul Carroll,
Joyce Epstein, Larry Freeman, Julie Kipp, Christine Miller, James Ogilvie, and Janet Ottmann.
In this article, I will present excerpts from an interview I did with Drs. Benedetti and
Peciccia on the morning of Professor Benedetti's address to the congress and a panel discussion in
which Dr. Benedetti's work figured prominently. This panel consisted of myself, and Drs. Peciccia
and Gary Bruno Schmid, all of whom including my New York colleague, Julie Kipp CSW,
participated in the interview. Dr. Schmid assisted Professor Benedetti in translating German into
English. Although the interview was primarily with Gaetano Benedetti, his responses seem to be
also the product of a fruitful collaboration with his colleague, Maurizio Peciccia.
Gaetano Benedetti joined the psychiatric staff at the Zurich University Clinic Burghlzli in
Switzerland in 1947 (two years prior to Harold Searles' joining the staff at Chestnut Lodge). It was
at the Burghlzli Clinic that Eugen Bleuler (1857-1939) created the term "schizophrenia" and
studied the psychodynamic life of schizophrenic patients in close cooperation with Carl Gustav
Jung, and also Sigmund Freud. Manfred Bleuler, the son and successor of Eugen Bleuler as
director of the Burghlzli, described Benedetti as a "highly valued member of our staff" and that the
staff "were increasingly touched by his devotion to schizophrenic patients and by his ability to
Schizophrenia]. Bleuler noted that Benedetti's empathy for his patients was similar to that of his
father's. As the era of psychopharmacology began, reserpine from India came into use at the
Burghlzli in the 1950's, and Benedetti increasingly focused his work on the psychoanalytic
psychotherapy of psychotic patients. He worked closely with Gustav Bally, Medard Boss,
Marguerite Sechehaye, and Christian Mller (with whom he founded the International Symposium
for the Psychotherapy of Schizophrenia in 1956 at the psychiatric clinic at the University of
Basel. He continued his work with schizophrenic patients until he retired in 1985. Benedetti has
remained active until the present in his teaching and supervision of clinicians involved in the
psychotherapy of schizophrenia. Bleuler noted that "Benedetti discovered again and again that,
behind his psychopathology, a schizophrenic person has an intellectual and emotional life as do
normal people... It is a great task to break through the isolation of the schizophrenic, whether
permanently or only for a brief time. This great experience plays an important role in Benedetti's
therapy and teaching." Benedetti, later in his career, regarded his work with schizophrenic patients
to be devoted not so much to the transmission of insight, but to "transitional subjects, of therapeutic
dreams which straighten out the negative images of psychosis, of mirror phenomena arising from
transforming images." Benedetti calls for an integration of our "wandering with the patient in the
I will begin with a quote from Professor Gaetano Benedetti (1992), who has over 50 years
schizophrenic disorder:
"It is in the psychotic's suffering that the most serious problems of the human mind are
encountered. Tackling them means illuminating the human being with signification and
sense, gaining a better understanding of the human being in general, not only of the
GB: Now I am happy that the co-workers and friends of mine are here, on one side, Dr. Schmid,
who will help me in the translation. I will try to say something in the English language but
he can translate better. On the other side, Dr. Peciccia, who is my co-worker in the field of
schizophrenia, symbiosis and all of these arguments. I have here, Dr. Koehler, your
questions [these were given to Professor Benedetti ahead of time, prior to the interview in
Norway]. I will try to answer in English the most important questions, and then I will give
BK: Dr. Benedetti, how would you define the basic problem in schizophrenia from a
psychological perspective?
GB: In schizophrenia, the transference and countertransference affect has devastating effects,
because the peripheral part of the self seems to be missing, that part which has developed
through object relations [this is similar to Peter Fonagy's dialectical model of self
the cell which has differentiated itself so as to absorb the impact with the outside world. Our
impression is that the protective membrane of the self is composed of a mirror image of the
self which is formed approximately during the phase of Lacan's (1966) mirror, and which
develops until it becomes the symbol of the self. Just as, upon interaction with the
environment, the membrane changes in order to preserve the inner part of the cell, so the
symbol of the self is transformed upon contact with the world in order to preserve the
central nucleus of the self, protected, unchanged, always the same as it was.
The basic biological conflict of all living beings - how to modify themselves upon contact
with the surrounding environment and, at the same time, maintain unaltered their own
structure - is exacerbated and becomes dramatic in psychosis. Here, the lack of membrane -
of symbols of the self exposes the inside of the celf - the center of the self - directly, and
without any mediation, to the impact of the world. The center of the self thus pours out and
spreads itself projectively outside. The central nucleus of the self, when it is faced with and
organizer and structurlizer of world experience within those space-time coordinates which
give us the sense of our existential continuity, the sense of always being ourselves, whatever
the situation.
BK: Professor Benedetti how do you define therapeutic symbiosis, is it a necessary part in the
work, and how do you feel your concept of therapeutic symbiosis is different from that of
Harold Searles?
GB: Therapeutic symbiosis can be considered as the therapeutic sublimation of that pathological
symbiosis which lies at the very core of schizophrenia and which Eugen Bleuler termed
"transitivism" and "appersonation," where the patient because of the disorders of his ego
boundaries as Paul Federn said, confuses himself with the world, with the objects upon
which he projects the bad parts of his self. The sublimation of this process in therapy is
possible because of the so-called narcissistic transference in which the patient confuses
himself with the therapist and it is possible insofar as the symbiosis with the therapist
becomes therapeutic as the therapist projects back to his patient the positive mirror-image of
the patient. The identification of the patient's ego with the object upon which he had
projected the bad side of himself, in order to get rid of it, fragments the ego of the patient,
whereas the therapist tries continuously to nourish this ego, projecting upon him the
The concept I use is very near, I think, to that of Searles as I see it. However, there are two
differences. One is of a functional nature and implies the concept that the symbiotic ego is
noted in the human unconscious and is present in all of us, as I and Dr. Peciccia have
described in our articles. We all have a symbiotic ego which is integrated with the separate
ego. Margaret Mahler spoke of the symbiotic ego of the infant with the mother and Daniel
Stern of the separateness. Now these two states are integrated in the human being and the
two states. Now this is one difference from Searles, that I speak of the symbiotic ego in
general terms. The second difference is that therapeutic symbiosis in therapy does not
symbiosis develops on a preverbal level and develops to the experience of duality because of
Now there is another question, is the transitional subject of mine the same as the transitional
object of Winnicott? I would say no, because the transitional object of Winnicott is the
whole self of the child which encounters himself in the world. My transitional subject is a
dissociated self, a part of the self which needs the cradle of the presence of the therapist in
order to become his whole self. It is a part of the self of the patient which becomes the total
self as a transitional subject which includes the figure of the therapist. Let us think of a
voice hallucinated by the schizophrenic patient, which however tells the patient how to
overcome his fears, or a good interpretation of his symptoms. In a case, for instance, where
the patient was afraid even of singing birds, because they knew him and persecuted him, the
voice said, go into the garden and listen there to the voice of God. This hallucination
was still, as such, a psychotic symptom; but as I used to say, a progressive one, a
psychotic symptom with a communicative, antipsychotic intention. The voice was, as the
patient soon said, also a personification of the therapist, it was his presence in him. This
transitional subject was a hallucination of the patient as well as the presence of the therapist
MP: A patient becomes psychotic through the use of marijuana and in his delusion he wished to
meet up with the extraterrestrial. And it comes, and a voice says to him, If you wish to
meet us, you have to stop smoking hashish. It is the voice of the therapist through the
hallucination.
GB: Yes, and have you to say something else concerning symbiosis?
MP: Yes. I would like to say two points. One point is that in the pathological symbiosis, the
patient loses his own individuality, his own ego boundaries, and his own separate self. And
in the therapeutic symbiosis, the patient rediscovers his own boundaries, his own separate
GB: Why?
MP: The patient tries to seek a reflection of himself in the world, but the world doesnt mirror
this, his self, because in general no one identifies himself with psychotic people. On the
contrary, the therapist is there with the intention to mirror the identity of the patient and the
GS: Can we say that it is the empathic identification of the therapist with the patient which makes
BK: Professor Benedetti, your term counteridentification describes the patients identification
with the therapist who is able to identify with the patient. Counteridentification in your
GB: Well, perhaps the main difference between countertransference and counteridentification is
that in the countertransference there are many symbolic and perhaps neurotic projections of
the therapist upon the patient. Therefore, the countertransference can be sometimes
dangerous to the patient if there is no supervision, if the therapist is not analyzed, etc. The
counteridentification is coming mainly, not completely, but mainly not from the symbolic
past, but from the present day feelings the therapist has towards a psychically dying human
being. Therefore, this counteridentification comes before the identification of the patient
GB: Sometimes. I remember that Dr. Peciccia had a dream of a patient before he had met her.
MP: We would say that there is a symbiotic self and that at different times the patient or therapist
come in contact with this symbiotic self. When the therapist comes first in contract, takes
awareness of the symbiotic self, this is what we call the counteridentification. When it
happens in the patient, then we speak of identification, but it is the same process.
GB: Yes.
MP: I would like to say something also on your very interesting idea, that in regard to the
we use preverbal methodology (like paintings, progressive mirror drawing, etc.). I think this
is very important and if we use words, then we use them to describe this preverbal level, at
GB: Yes.
MP: Without saying directly what is happening between patient and therapist [This is
Renee, and the Lacanian analyst Palle Villemoes injunction to therapists of psychotic
patients to avoid the use of personal pronouns for they isolate and create a sense of anxious
GB: Yes, yes. Perhaps this is the main difference between a psychoanalytic treatment and this
psychodynamic treatment, the conception we have of the disease is a psychoanalytic one, but
the talk with the patient is not psychoanalytic. It is an imaginative talk where we express
ourselves either through pictures, or through words which describe preverbal processes, and
MP: There are psychoanalysts, particularly in Buenos Aires, who used the indirect interpretation
of the transference not with drawings but with the narrative of the history.
GB: Yes.
GB: Psychoanalysis is the uncovering of the unconscious layers and backgrounds of the
psychotic symptoms like hatred, narcissistic wounds, rage, delusions, hallucinations, etc. It
helps to discover at their origins dangerous life experiences. I think these psychoanalytic
interpretations may be useful, for instance, if there is a negative transference of the patient. I
would say that the positive transference should not be interpreted. It is a reality, a new
reality of the patient. But the negative transference, where the patient hallucinates the
common building of a new self-identity emerging out of the experience of the therapeutic
relationship.
question, What do you think of Searles concept of patient as therapist to his analyst? I
would not use this expression, but the encounter with schizophrenic patients may be a great
existential experience, which changes our self-identity, and that the schizophrenic patient is
in this situation not only receiving but also giving, so that this mutuality may increase the
BK: In one of your articles, Illuminations of the Human Condition in the Encounter with the
Otto Allen Will, Jr., M.D., edited by J. L. Sacksteder, D.P. Schwartz, and Y. Akabane], you
say, We communicate to him not only what he [the patient] objectively speaking, appears
meaning his existence holds for our own . . . It is only in this way that we communicate to
him an image which is not only reductive of himself, but prospective, and we communicate
to him also an image of ourselves which may enrich and transform his image of himself. In
this art of communication, which is reflected by him to us, we too are changed, and it is this,
our very ability to let ourselves be transformed, deepened, and enriched, which has an effect
GB: Yes.
BK: There is something that happens in long-term work with psychotic patients where
underneath or alongside of the negative transference is always, I think, this attempt by the
patient to have a positive impact on the therapist. As Herbert Rosenfeld pointed out, one of
the unconscious psychotic anxieties is the fear of having a destrucive impact on the other,
perhaps driving the other mad. And as Searles clarified, the latter may be both a fear and a
wish. Searles believed one of the primary anxieties in paranoid schizophrenia was this fear
of having an omnipotent destructive impact on the needed other. In fact, we use for our logo
his [ones] fellow man [human beings] ...is an essentially psychotherapeutic striving.
This striving must be recognized and acknowledged in order for the patient to further the
MP: I agree with this idea, and I have had the experience in the progressive mirror drawing
26(1), 109-122, 1998] that the patient and therapist reveal the patients unconscious, but
also that the patient reveals the analysts unconscious, so that in the method, the progressive
mirror drawing, there is a mirroring. When I copy the drawing of the patient, I change
something, so I discover the unconscious of the patient, but when the patient copies my
drawing and changes it, he gives an interpretation and discovers my unconscious. In this
BK: Mutuality?
BK: By putting yourself more into the therapy and making an addition to their drawing, thereby
revealing parts of yourself that you may not be aware of at the time, you are allowing
yourself to be vulnerable. Perhaps this allows the patient, through identification with the
therapist, to soften some of what Herbert Rosenfeld called destructive narcissism, the
MP: The idea of the line as part of the self when it appears in the drawing.
MP: Yes. It can appear in my drawing or in the patients drawing but it is common.
[At this point in the interview, there ensued a discussion between Drs. Benedetti, Peciccia and Julie
Kipp of group treatment, supervision of the trainee therapists and milieu treatment in general.]
GB: Dr. Koehler, another question you asked, How do you understand such symptoms as
auditory hallucinations, delusions, as well as the more negative symptoms such as alogia,
anergia, etc.? Negative symptoms express the breakdown of the exhausted psychotic ego,
the loss of its resources, the widening of the chronic schizophrenic existence. Their
psychotherapy needs the mild and slow stimulation of the still present resources as well as
the possibility of nourishing the patients ego by means of a constant, reliable, but not too
much active countertransference. Negative symptoms may also be defences against every
positive symptoms, indicate the impact of split-off parts of the patients self, which cannot
be repressed by the weak psychotic ego into the unconscious and which therefore appear to
the patient as events of the outer world, as the activity of persecutors, etc. It is possible that
the therapist introjects the split-off feelings and drives of the patient in order to transform
them into positive symbols, to humanize them and to give them back to the patient in a new
BK: That is what you mean by the creative variant of Herbert Rosenfelds projective
identification?
GB: Yes.
BK: Its the rotated side of the paranoid projective identification. Bions concept of
container/contained and reverie come to mind. By the way, it is in the phase of therapeutic
symbiosis that Searles believed was the phase in which you can more effectively interpret
these negative, paranoid transferences. Searles saw the phase of pathological symbiosis as a
defense against hate and fear emerging as a result of the growing closeness in the
therapeutic dyad in which the hate is displaced against the world. Underlying that hate,
Searles believed, is this need for a more therapeutic symbiosis, a need for a less paranoid,
emotional oneness between the therapeutic partners which does not threaten the integrity of
each.
GB: I am not sure when [to interpret these transferences] but I would say if the patient is
destructive he is at the same time self-destructive. If we interpret it, the patient becomes
hopeless. The best interpretation is to sustain, to have the strength to sustain his
destructiveness, conveying to the patient the feeling that the therapist is strong enough to
accept this [similar to Winnicotts idea of the therapist surviving the phase of maximum
destructiveness, i.e., by the therapist not retaliating or abandoning the patient and thereby
creating a firmer sense of subjectivity and externality]. Later on, if the patient can
distinguish a part of the self which does not hate, then interpretation of the hate and
destructiveness is important because the patient learns to separate himself from that part of
MP: I was thinking about the positive and negative symptoms and Margaret Mahlers theory of
the psychoses the trauma at the oral stage and lack of distinction between baby and
mother. However, it was difficult to explain the autistic symptoms. The idea was that the
symbiosis was the trauma. Mahler distinguished between the autistic and symbiotic
psychoses in order to explain the negative and positive symptoms, but it is not clear why
some patients very rapidly move from autistic, negative symptoms to productive, positive
symptoms. This led us to think that the symbiotic self and autistic self are not integrated in
schizophrenia. Sometimes the autistic self prevails and we see negative symptoms and
sometimes prevails the symbiotic self and we have productive symptomatology. [See G.
persecution, Nordic Journal of Psychiatry, 48, 391-396 and M. Pecicca and G. Benedetti
(1996). The splitting between separate and symbiotic states of the self in the
the autistic closure the negative symptoms are a way to strengthen the boundaries with the
outer world in a very hard way, nothing penetrates the psychic skin and the symbiotic
BK: What causes this lack of integration between the separate and symbiotic selves? Why are
GB: It is easier to describe this deintegration than to find out the way. Dr. Peciccia used the
analogy with light an integration of waves [symbiotic self] and particles [separate self].
So it is with relationships. There is the early symbiotic self which becomes unconscious
but which is the source of art, poetry, intuition and the separate self which permits us to
distinguish individuals. Maybe some patients grow up in some families in which the
symbiotic needs are too strong. Another possibility is the biological constitution of the
patient. I cannot deny that some roots of this constitution are biological. Could you answer
this question, Dr. Peciccia about the deintegration of the separate and symbiotic selves in the
MP: We can create a model, but it is a creation, we must be aware it is a creation. The infants
self, at the very beginning, grew up in two different areas in the inner space of the separate
baby and in the mothers space. We could hypothesize that there is an oscillation of the
infants self from the separate space to the self-space of the mother, himself in the mother.
This oscillation could be good and positive or it could be negative. What I mean is that if
we think that the baby has the need of the mother while in the separate self-state, the need
for the breast and so forth, this pushes him to search for the mother. If the mother is there
and answers that need, he finds himself in the symbiotic self in the mother in a positive way.
This is a good oscillation, transition from separate self to symbiotic self. If the mother is
not there, or if there is severe frustration, then the experience of the symbiotic self is
BK: So the focus is on transitions of self-states, from separate to symbiotic selves. Searles has a
very important conception of what may make this symbiotic experience between mother and
infant so threatening and frustrating. He believed that at times the mother or father is not
there, so as to protect the child from her or his own symbiotic libidinal needs which are
experienced as destructive. He thought that one reason why the work took so long in the
psychotherapy of chronic schizophrenia, is that both therapist and patient defend against the
each participants sense of self and identity. Recently, when I spoke with Searles about
these issues, he noted that when families were more actively involved in the
psychotherapeutic work conducted at the now closed Chestnut Lodge Hospital in Rockville,
BK: How do you define Therapeutic Images, Transitional Subject and the use of Dreams in the
therapy?
GB: In my efforts to focus the concept, I have decided to make use of the metaphor,
transforming images. I would like to start off by saying that, at any point of our
within the therapist of transforming images which shifts the sad, oppressive, delirious,
anxiety-provoking images seen by the patient. And it is by taking notice of these negative
images, not by contradicting them, but by extending them towards new horizons, that a
common thread can be woven in the psychotherapy, a push towards the positivization of
the psychotic experience; towards the progression of the psychopathology, the creation
Therapeutic transforming images, as I see them, derive from our ability to identify
ourselves with the catastrophes occurring within the patient, to live them as if they were,
in a way, our own perhaps even dreaming about them at times; they derive from our ability
to absorb the patient into ourselves, to the point that our latent psychotic nuclei are
mobilized to some extent. These nuclei then lose all their power to harm us, precisely
because they are now part of the dialogic interweave. This is how the patient enriches our
minds with symbolic images, while he thinks he is exhausting our energies, and how we can
restore to him what he has awakened in our unconscious. Our absorbing of the sick
person, which must precede the transformation process, amounts to the act of internalizing
the split, cut off and negativized parts of him. This absorption, which may manifest itself (at
certain stages of the therapy) in the therapists dreams about death, enables the patient to
gain a therapeutic awareness of the positive parts of himself, which would otherwise be
completely buried by the ngative aspects. It is from these parts that the therapist forms a
virtual image of the oneness of the patient, which is then continuously projected onto him, as
him would not permit it at any price; and indeed, at times it is possible to positivize the
patient only through the time and space we share with him. The positivizing image cannot,
therefore, reach the patient unless we provide the vehicle for it, by concentrating on it in his
presence.
BK: Have you had the experience of seeing this as patients recover?
GB: Yes, this is a great and moving experience, as well in the treatment of an acute psychosis,
where suddenly, even during a therapeutic session, the psychotic self-identity changes, as
patients lie not side by side with their psychotic symptoms, but are extracted from the very
[Professor Benedetti had to leave to prepare for his address to the 13th ISPS Congress
References
Benedetti, G. (1987). Psychotherapy of Schizophrenia. New York: New York University Press.
Benedetti, G. (1972). The psychotherapy of psychotic and schizophrenic patients and factors
facilitating them. In P. Bori (Ed.), USA-Europe Conference on Facilitating Climate for the
Therapeutic Relation in Mental Health Services, ARS, Perugia, Italy.
Benedetti, G. (1987). Illuminations of the human condition in the encounter with the psychotic
patient. In G. Benedetti (1987), Psychotherapy of Schizophrenia,, pp. 129-138, and in J. L.
Sacksteder, D. P. Schwartz, and Y. Akabane (Eds.), Attachment and the Therpeutic Process: Essays
in Honor of Otto Allen Will, Jr., M.D., pp. 185-196. Madison, CT: International Universities Press.
Benedetti, G., and Peciccia, M. (1994). Psychodynamic reflections on the delusion of persecution.
Nordic Journal of Psychiatry, 48, pp. 391-396.
Peciccia, M., and Benedetti, G. (1996). The splitting between separate and symbiotic states of the
self in the psychodynamics of schizophrenia. International Forum of Psychoanalysis, 5, pp. 23-38.
Peciccia, M., and Benedetti, G. (1998). The integration of sensorial channels through progressive
mirror drawing in the psychotherapy of schizophrenic patients with disturbances in verbal language.
Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis, 26(1), pp. 109-122.
Searles, H.F. (1979). Countertransference and Related Subjects: Selected Papers. New York:
International Universities Press.