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An Adventist
And a Catholic
or
Two Friends
on Two Different Ships
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Digitized by the Internet Archive
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http://archive.org/details/adventistandcathOOeire
An Adventist
and a Catholic
or
Two Friends
On Two Different Ships
Jn 18:37-38
Original title:
Original Publisher:
Published by:
Ave Maria Press
P.O. Box 489, Station U
Toronto, Ontario
Canada M8Z 5Y8
(416)251-4245 / (800)663-MARY
fax:(416)253-0480
ISBN# 0-9684895-6-7
Heart of Origins 5
Dialogue 25
Sola Scriptura? 88
"Telegraphic" answers 99
Further objections of the Adventists 105
Sunday 138
Why?
First of all the word "Adventists", which historically
came first, is in the foreground. Secondly, in their name
there is no reference to Saturday but to the "seventh day".
of Adventists, one that agrees with the fact that you need
to keep holy the day when Christ rose from the dead, but
according to their biblical calculations, that day was on a
Saturday and not Sunday.
Before you turn the page 1
ask you to pray three Hail Marys for God's light for my
friend Thomas.
The Objections of
the Adventists
against Catholics
(Expressed by one of them)
January 31
Dear Paul,
written..."
I am
going on and on without an end. When we next
meet, we will be able to discuss more.
Why?
Because only commonly outlived reality can make a
man happy
Why "only commonly"?
No.
Why was it necessary to the child's happiness to have
someone else see and live through it?
are fantastic.
monly.
Why?
There is a great deal of things (realities) which we can
reach by our senses (moon, knife, heat, whistle,
stench...) but there's a much greater number of things
(beings) which are out of reach of the senses (atom, x-
rays, love, happiness, faith, angel, God... and in this age,
also Cicero, Alexander the Great...).
First, maybe the fact that each Scripture, even the one
used by the Adventists, is divided into two parts: The Old
and New Covenant.
Thus, if the Old Testament is "old", there must be
something old in it, and by the same token, in the New
Testament, there must be something new. Otherwise, the
words "old" and "new" would be senseless.
The Old Covenant has been contracted by the Lord
and his people through his servant Moses on Mount
Sinai. It was ratified by the blood of animals of sacrifices.
Heb 9:19-20
And this same God, Incarnated Word (Jn 1:14) who
The Ten Commandments and specifically Saturday 33
Mt 26:26-28
Dt 28:58-59
This covenant with its precepts is the preparation
first
Gal 3:23-24
34 An Adventist and a Catholic
Gal 4:1-2
Rom 10:4
The law and the prophets lasted until John; but from
then on the Kingdom of God is proclaimed.
Lk 16:16
Old New
Unblemished
Paschal Lamb Jesus Christ
(Ex 12:5)
Christ
Adam
(Rom 5:15)
Christ's priesthood
Melchizedek
(Heb5:10, Ps 110:4)
Baptism
The Circumcision
(Col 2:11)
The Christian
Moses' rite Liturgy
(Heb 8:1-13)
The heavenly
The earthly
Jerusalem
Jerusalem
(Gal 4:24-31)
Rom 3:31
For example:
Acts 10:11-17
Acts 10:28
and also:
acceptable to him.
Acts 10:34-35
But now we are released from the law, ...so that we may
serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obso-
lete letter.
Rom 7:6
Gal 4:30
Gal 5:3
Heb 8:13
Saturday and the figures of the Old Testament 39
Gal 3:24-25
Col 2:16-17
las 1:17
Jn 5:17-18
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth,
the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day
he rested.
Ex 20:11
The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
Mk2:27
"for man" and not for "a sequence in a week"
Seventh day, that is 24 hours in a week are set aside
for man to strengthen his soul and his body, to come
closer to God, to get to know Him better, to know His
holy will, and thus be strengthened with His word, to
fulfill the main commandment of love through the week.
Mt 12:10-12
42 An Adventist and a Catholic
Mt 12:1-7
Jn 14:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will
of my Father in heaven.
Mt 7:21
Saturday and the figures of the Old Testament 43
your God, raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to
him you shall listen in all that he may say to you. Everyone
who does not listen to that prophet will he cut off from the peo-
ple." (Acts 3:22-23) Thus the quotes that you use do not
support the Old Testament, instead they do the opposite.
1 Jn 2:2-4
Acts 24:14
Jn 13:34
Lk 22:19-20
law of Christ.
Gal 6:2
Saturday and the figures of the Old Testament 45
Jn 13:35
1 Jn 2:10
For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use
this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve
Gal 5:13-14
1 Jn3:14
Can a man exist at the same time for love in life and
beside Saturday in death?
1 Jn 3:23
does not love does not know God; for God is love.
1 ]n 4:7-8
Jesus turns this "order" upside down: "I desire mercy, not
sacrifice" And the response of Jews to this? Agitation. It
est? For "No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's
1 Jn 4:11-12
1 Jn 4:20
shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,
and any other commandment, are summed up in this
sentence, "You shall love your neighbour as yourself".
Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore love is the
fulfilling of the law.
Rom 13:8-10
Mt 25:31-46
Take a good look at the above-mentioned section
Mt 19:17-19
The sequence of Saturday and the Commandment of Love 49
young man
This is clearly asking: Which com-
mandments?
One man esteems one day as better than another, while
another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be
fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the
day, observes it in honour of the Lord.
Rom 14:5-6
Gal 4:9-11
'You shall not take the name of the Lord your God
in vain. For the Lord will not hold him guiltless who
takes his name in vain/
Ex 20:2-1 7
Catechetical Formula
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in
vain.
The sequence of Saturday and the Commandment of Love 5
The meaning is the same but not "the letter", and this
is exactly our problem.
You insist that the Catholic Church left out the sec-
ond commandment, while She takes your "second one"
for a part of the first one, because "You shall not make
for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of any-
thing..." clearly runs with "You shall have no other gods
52 An Adventist and a Catholic
seems that the main subject of your faith is above all, the
Ten Commandments. If that is so, then this is a basic
error. To know fundamental moral law, which each man
has inscribed in his own nature, one does not need faith
for that because man recognizes it without anyone hav-
ing to tell him. Whatever I know through my own
insight, I have no need to believe it.
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature
observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for
themselves even though they do not have the law. They
show that the demands of the law are written in their
hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their
Rom 2:14-15
blood, you do not have life within you" (Jn 6:54), then I will
eat his flesh and drink his blood, providing I believe that
it is so. Moral law is a moral law, and the truths of faith
No, the actual day sequence does not have any bear-
ing on the substance of moral law. It has bearing on it
only when it is directed by a lawful authority.
The answer:
the Christ's Church was bold enough to do it
Acts 4:33
Acts 17:18, 32
1 Cor 15:12-18
I agree.
Gal 6:15
Eph 2:10
the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
2 Cor 5:17
Mt 16:19
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not
pass away.
Is 55:8-9
Mt 28:18-20
"Go, therefore" He sends them because He has
the power to send them. Whoever is not given the power,
cannot send.
"Teaching them" thus the Church has not only
the right but also the duty to teach. It would be ridicu-
lous if and unbelievers alike did not have the
believers
duty to listen to Her. No, Thomas, simple believers can-
not instruct, or as you put it, "control" those to whom
!
Acts 10:48
Acts 19:4-5
where Paul says, "I give thanks (to God) that J baptized none
60 An Adventist and a Catholic
of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say you
were baptized in my name". If the Apostle baptized some-
one and he was baptized "in the
that person boasted that
name only meant that Paul was the one who
of Paul", it
can't see any reason not to), there is the matter that if I
else can these words of Jesus make sense since the apos-
tles died long ago!
Thomas,
sincerely,
are these words fulfilled better
in any other place than they are in the Catholic Church?
Mk 16:15
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects
me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Lk 10:16
Mt 18:17-18
Heb 13:17
Acts 20:28
62 An Adventist and a Catholic
Take note of the fact that this does not only refer to
the apostles, to whom you give sole authority.
Feed my sheep.
Jn 21:17
offer you, since all these words have been a living reality
in the Catholic Church for the entire two thousands
years.
Acts 20:30
Jn 20:21
In our case, we see that the Father sent the Son. Jesus
sent the apostles, and the apostles laid their hands on
others. Those in turn, by laying on of hands, appointed
others. This chain remains to this day in the Catholic
Church. That is one of the reasons why She is called the
Apostolic Church. This succession is a clear sign by which
anyone can recognize whether a person is sent by Christ
or not. This was also clear to Ellen White, your foundress,
when she said that in the year 313, the Church and the
state merged. By this she unwillingly acknowledged that
the Catholic Church, the one after the year 313 until now,
is identical to the Church before the year 313.
You, Lord, . . . show which one of these two you have cho-
sen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from
which Judas turned away. .
Acts 1:24-25
64 An Adventist and a Catholic
Acts 6:3-6
Acts 13:2-3
Acts 20:17-18; 28
1 Tim 4:14
Authority and Mission 65
For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of
God that you have through the imposition of my hands.
2 Tim 1:6
For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set
Ti 1:5
1 Tim 5:22
Heb 6:1-3
Jn 7:28-29
66 An Adventist and a Catholic
Jn 12:44-45
Jn 12:48-50
Jn 13:20
Lk 10:16
Mk 16:15
Rom 10:13-15,17
Sinfulness of the Church? 67
self, how the Catholic Church fits with the Scripture, and
ask yourself a question "Who is Ellen White? Who
empowered her new church? In whose name
to start a
has she come?" Because if she came in the name of her
own reasoning, in the name of how her reason looked at
the Scripture, that is in her own name, then have to say: I
the past and at the present. And Jesus says, that a tree is
What's in this?
Rom 2:24
all sinned
Rom 5:12
Jn 1:8
Jn 1:10
LK 18:11
Surely you know how that person fared before God.
Do the words of Jesus not apply to you also:
Lk 6:37
Here you can prove your faith, if you believe that God
has the power to give you His teachings through fallible
people infallibly.
No, I am
not writing to you to point out that the
Adventists have this sin, since I do not say that we do not
Sinfulness of the Church ? 71
fall into it. It is just that this problem in spiritual life is,
pride, and on the other hand, they run right into its open
arms. Only with God's help can man gain victory, or bet-
ter still, to be in a state of overcoming it unceasingly
throughout his whole life. The saints feared most of all
that they would believe in their own holiness, and that is
why they humiliated themselves wherever possible,
according to the words of the Scripture, "in humility count
others better than yourselves" (Phil 2:3).
Kit 9:10-13
Mt 11:19
Mt 13:28-30
Sinfulness of the Church? 73
Mt 13:47-49
Mt 12:20
Gal 6:1
Jas 2:2
Gal 4:15
Gal 5:15
1 Cor 6:7-8
and envy but you cannot obtain; you fight and wage
war. You do not possess because you do not ask. You ask
but do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it
Jas 4:1-4
Rev 2:14
Rev 3:2-4
J know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor
hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you
are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of
my mouth.
Rev 3:15-16
Enough of darkness!
Yet, we had to enlighten it too.
Mt 5:14-16
Should I pat myself on the back? No! Since I am not
going to talk about myself but about others. No one can
take credit for other person's deeds, only the person who
actually did them,
and God, because one's deeds are
done, first of all, through His grace.
78 An Adventist and a Catholic
If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give
to [the] poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me.
Mt 19:21
Mt 19:12
800 lepers had only the clothing and food rations sup-
plied by the government. Officially Damien was the pas-
tor of the Catholics in the colony but actually he served as
the lepers' physician, counselor, house-builder, sheriff,
You may think gone off the edge. Just ask your-
I've
Mk 3:23
A Japanese girl was converted to Christianity sheerly
by watching a television broadcast of the papal visit in
Japan.
Mt 10:25
the result of which is that the ones who fulfill their duties
fall even further into not being noticed in their sur-
Rom 14:4
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life
Jn 15:13
Holiness of the Church 87
Mt 7:8
many years, you would not consider as the only sure thing
in thewhole Scripture the Ten Commandments. This,
Thomas, is basically your stumbling block. And if you
88 An Adventist and a Catholic
Jn 5:39
{
You} Search the Scripture, because you think you have
eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.
Jn 5:39
The crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law
that the Christ abides forever.
Jn 12:34
Mt 23:2-3
1 Tim 3:15
90 An Adventist and a Catholic
in India 90%.
Why are you spreading your religion in the "Third
World", and not only there; with the help of pictures and
films? Why do you not put a Bible into the hands of
those illiterates and tell them: "Here, read!" Why do you
ask those people to believe your teachers first?
have no idea.
invention (1436), one book had the same price as all the
houses on a street. If you let on, that all the people do
and did know how to read, you would have to admit that
all of them know the three biblical languages, that they
for although you have hidden these things from the wise
Sola Scriptural 93
Kit 11:25
Lk4:18
them..." "He who hears you hears me". "If they keep my
,
you guide your thinking. You are certain, that man is too
feeble an element to be able to securely hand down the
truth from one generation to the next. That which is writ-
ten, is unshakable.
94 An Adventist and a Catholic
1 Cor 1:27-29
I am
not saying that God has "invented" the myster-
ies of our faith only to try our love. They in themselves,
Jn 14:10
Jn 14:20
Jn 17:21-23
"
...and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great
mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the
church.
Eph 5:32
1 Cor 12:26
Faith and the mysteries 97
Act 9:5
Maybe, Thomas, you will say that all this is just a the-
orizing.
The last goes along with the words of Jesus at the last
Jn 16:13
98 An Adventist and a Catholic
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another
Advocate to be with you always.
Jn 14:16
Mt 28:20
You, however, have despised her teaching authority,
you have made infallible your reason and ended in such
a way would if someone gave him
as a six-year old child
the best books but no teachers. From the entire Scripture,
you left yourself certain only the basic rnoral law which
was certain both to the pagans before Moses and the
pagans of our days, who even recognize it by their
mouths (to appear to be just) but do not fulfill it.
Remember how you once started to read the Scripture
with all your might in order to understand it and how
everything ended. That is because you think that you
must rely only on your own strength. God, in His good-
ness, gave you the Church, to lead you gradually by hand
to fully understand the truths of the faith and with your
cooperation, to perfection. But you're upset because you
would have to be led by someone's hand. In this,
Thomas, I see your whole problem. If only you would
understand,
Mk 10:15
"Telegraphic" answers 99
^d You write: And they are the ones that have a "patent"
on the Holy Spirit and thus the infallibility.
^
do not want to deny that the Holy Spirit is the
I
cause of our faith. Not even that the Scripture can moti-
vate you to faith. But there is still the unsolved problem,
what and how to believe; because you are to believe
everything, for example also the fact that "The gates of the
netherworld shall not prevail against it." So answer your
own self at least, "Does the Holy Spirit enlighten
Adventists infallibly or fallibly?"
The Holy Spirit will lead you only if you obey the
Church. If at the Adventist's church everyone has the
"patent" for the Holy Spirit, why can't at least the Pope
have it in the Catholic Church?
I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit has the power to
'Telegraphic" answers 101
2 Sol/Thes 2:15
friends who for years lived without faith, and they con-
verted as adults. Observing this, after you brought it to
my attention, am more
then pleasantly surprised. For
I
Rom 2:5-7
Lk 1:43
1 04 An Adventist and a Catholic
Lk 1:48
And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts
Lk 2:35
So long!
Paul
Further objections
of the Adventists
October
Hi Paul
ing would help him. Let us not even speak of the fact that
// ,
thus degrade His love and His law. In death, God's love
to mankind is linked with God's holiness and realization
of God, through Christ, is Himself an arbitrator
justice.
Bye,
Thomas
October 11
Greetings, Thomas!
it and found out that the main part was already written,
Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern
of the trespass of Adam.
Rom 5:12-14
Psalm 51:7
Rom 5:15
Thus, whatever man gained in Christ is much greater
than that, which he lost in Adam. He must realize this
gain by being born anew of water and Spirit, that is, he
Merits and Salvation The Mystery of God-Man 115
1 Cor 12:13
Jn 17:21,23
Gn 1:27
If this had been said about the first Adam, the same
applies to the fullest of the second Adam Christ, of
whom the first one was only (Rom a foreshadowing
5:14). In Him then, in His Incarnated Word, God has
also made us participants in His divine works. That's why
it is written:
Jn 10:34
Merits and Salvation Christ's Mystical Body 117
Jn 15:ln
poor man, but also by giving him $500. The twig is good
if it brought a 3-pound cluster of grape, but also if it only
Lk 19:17,19
Merits and Salvation Deeds and True Faith 119
1 Cor 13:2
1 Jn3:18
The Scripture talks of "all faith", and still nothing is
valid! Faith will pass away,but love will never end ( 1 Cor
13:8). Faith only a base, a trampoline, which helps us
is
Jn 15:16
explore it, and that's why the results, which come out of
this oneness, are better left to faith. Merit is exactly such
a consequence.
Phil 2:13
2 Cor 5:19,21
Eph 3:4-5
Eph 5:32
But the wise shall shine brightly like the splendor of the
Dan 12:3
Mt6:l
Thus, if we perform our deeds because of God, we
will receive a reward. We will receive reward for good
deeds. The reward will be in heaven because our Father is
in heaven.
When you give alms, do not let your left hand know
what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be
secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
Mt 6:3-4
Mt 6:6
When you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so
that you may not appear to he fasting, except to your
Father. . . And your Father. . . will repay you.
Mt 6:17-18
Mt 6:19-20
Mt5:19
So, Are works the reason why one will be
I ask:
greater in heaven and the other smaller?
Mt 11:11
Mt 7:2
Merits and Salvation What does the Bible have to say? 131
Mk 9:35
Mk 9:41
"Will surely not lose", thus it is eternal.
If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give
to [the] poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Mt 19:21
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life
Jn 15:13
Mt 25:31f
Thomas, how can you say: NOT FOR works, when
Now he who plants and he who waters are one, yet each
will receive his own reword according to his labor
1 Cor 3:8
1 Cor 3:12-14'
"Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
"Yes, " said the Spirit, them find
"let rest from their
Rev 14:13
Rev 22:12
Rev 22:11
er treasures on earth".
You see that faith was active along with his works, and
faith was completed by the works.
las 2:22
Lk 6:38
Hi!
Paul
Brief Review
Saturday
We can look at Saturday from three perspectives:
A) Periodicity
It is possible to ask oneself: How many days should
be in a week? How often should the day repeat itself, the
day in which man stops worrying about temporary life
B) Content
We have already mentioned the question of the con-
tent or spirit of the seventh day. Man has inscribed in his
heart a command to render to God visible and public
worship. Since this imperative of conscience springs
from human nature itself, it isn't possible to change it,
C) Placement
Our issue only relates to this third perspective, which
relates to the place of the Sabbath day in the frame of the
seven-day cycle of the week. This mere sequence, posi-
tion in the week, falls in no way under the natural moral
law, in other words, it does not flow from human nature,
and thus the change of position cannot be antinatural.
The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
Mk 2:27
Nevertheless, the sequence, the position of the sab-
bath day in the week has its meaning. Saturday repre-
sented the completion of the first creation (Ex 20:11) as
well as theOld Covenant (Ex 31:16). Also, it was a shad-
ow, a figure to the New Covenant reality (as well as the
Old Testament whole is such):
Therefore let no one, pass judgement on you in questions
Col 2:16-17
Brief review 137
Sunday
The Holy Scripture does not indicate whether it was
Jesus Christ, who commanded His Church to change
the observation of His day from the seventh day to the
first day of the week, or whether She did it of her own
Mt 18:18
for man". She only changed its place in the week, and
with that, its symbolism.
Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week"
Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's
Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the
"eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the
Brief review 139
Adventists say:
the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
2 Cor 5:17
Gal 6:15
Acts 20:7
Rom 14:5-6
Heb 4:4
fy this fact.
We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day
[after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God,
separated matter from darkness, made the world; and on
this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.
Ps 118:22-24
Lv 23:9-21
But as it is, Christ is now raised from the dead, the first
but each one in proper order: Christ the first fruits and
then, at his coming, all those who belong to him.
1 Cor 15:20
Jn 16:12-13
Rom 14:2
Rom 14:14,17
1 Cor 8:8
before you...
1 Cor 10:25,27
2 Ft 1:20
2 Ft 3:16
Brief review 145
Dn 7:7-25
All of them?
If all of them, then even the first Pope, the Apostle
Peter, would also have to be the beast. It seems that even
Jesus Himself agrees with you when saying, "Get behind
me, Satan!" (Mt 16:23)
If, I am repeating, purely theoretically, if you were
Brief review 147
him the hard word "Satan". Did He not say that word for
your benefit, to make you understand that the spreading
of His truth is not dependent on our, neither your, "sin-
lessness" but solely on His power? Don't you know that
He is almighty and can do things in such a way as is
pleasing to Him and not how we perceive it? That not
only is He capable of creating the Universe, but He can
also build His infallible Church on a fragile man and
fragile people?
Maybe, you are not able to accept all that has been
said here. I am not surprised by that, because I know
faith is, in the first place, God's grace.