Professor J.

Southern (Managing Editor-Publisher)

Conversation with John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie, Pioneer of Jazz

Author(s): Josephine R. B. Wright and John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie
Source: The Black Perspective in Music, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Spring, 1976), pp. 82-89
Published by: Professor J. Southern (Managing Editor-Publisher)
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1214405
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 CONVERSATION WITH
JOHN BIRKS "DIZZY" GILLESPIE,
PIONEER OF JAZZ
BY JOSEPHINE R. B. WRIGHT

OHN BIRKS "DIZZY" GILLESPIE (b.1917 in Cheraw, South Caro-

lina), trumpeter, composer, conductor, and band leader, is one of
the few legendary figures from the bebop era who remains active
today. Upon graduating from the big bands of Earl Hines, Benny
Carter, and Cab Calloway, Gillespie moved towards a more persona
style of jazz. Together with Charlie "Yardbird" Parker, he helped usher
in bebop during the 1940s. Gillespie's horn is a trademark of his style-
a trumpet with a bell upraised at a 45-degree angle. His musical style is
marked by harmonic inventiveness and sophistication in phrasing. As an
ardent observer of various ethnic cultures, he has introduced many
non-Western elements into his music.
In the following interview, which took place on 2 January 1976, Mr.
Gillespie speaks candidly about his indebtedness to Roy Eldridge in
developing his style and of his collaboration with Charlie Parker. He
also discusses the stylistic evolution of his music and explains his phi-
losophy on life, which is reflected in turn through his music.

WRIGHT: Mr. Gillespie, how do you perceive your role in the devel-
opment of jazz-particularly with regard to the bebop style?
GILLESPIE: It's like religion. In a religion you have the bellweather
-the guy who goes around and says "hey, he's coming, he's coming."
And then you have the main messenger himself. It might be one person,
or it might be two. Then you have offshoots of these guys. But the
main ones who bring the specific message-individuals like Charlie
Parker, myself, [Thelonious] Monk, or Benny Carter-set the standards
that everyone else followed.
How did you evolve your particular horn style?
The truth is that the shape of the horn was an accident. I could
pretend that I went into the basement, and thought it up, and came up
with the idea of the trumpet bell in the air. But it wasn't that way. It
was an accident. Actually, I left my horn on a stand and someone
kicked it over. And, instead of falling, the horn bent. Now, when you
look at a trumpet stand, you see that it has four legs that sit up. When
you put your horn on it, the stand goes about six inches into the bell.

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 DIZZY GILLESPIE 83

JOHN BIRKS "DIZZY" GILLESPIE

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84 THE BLACK PERSPECTIVE IN MUSIC

Now, nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand

one were to pass over the horn it would fall because it [the
high enough for a coat or something else to catch on.
I wasn't there when the accident happened because I wa
broadcast and had left the horn on stage. Apparently two c
passed over the horn-no telling what they were doing on sta
time. Probably one of them pushed the other, or something
and that individual went over. The horn fell right towards
instead of right between them. If the horn had fallen in be
legs, it would have fallen down and never bent. When I cam
stage, I played the horn as it was.
But that isn't the total story of the development of your horn
That [accident] had nothing to do with my playing. It only
to the sound that came out of the horn. I had my horn ma
shape.
I think that you once mentioned that you originally modeled your
playing after Roy Eldridge before you began to experiment with your
particular horn style.
Well, before I started really getting into myself, I was a great fan of
Roy Eldridge. I am still a great fan of Roy Eldridge. But I figured that
there was something deeper; that there was more to me, that there was
more evolution in the instrument [the horn] than Roy had done. Being
a piano player-I have been fooling around with the piano since I was
two or three years old-I was always a student of chord changes, of
progressions. So, I would recognize chord changes. Monk would recog-
nize changes. And we would exchange ideas. Then, I was in Edgar
Hayes's band. Edgar Hayes was a good musician. I learned a lot from
him. He had one specific composition in the book [his repertory] that
was arranged by Benny Carter. I don't remember the name of the piece,
but it had a fascinating chord passage. I hadn't heard it before, and this
was 1937-1938. I heard this passage and I kept turning it over and over
again. I turned it around, I'd turn it outside and I'd turn it inside out.
And from that one phrase-just one bar-I started developing that pas-
sage and listening to it, and before you knew it I was trained like that. I
was excited about the progression and used it everywhere. And then I
learned about Monk's use of chromaticism. I learned rhythm patterns
from Charlie Parker and Benny Carter, the drummer. I learned a lot
about harmony from Benny Carter, Art Tatum, and Clyde Hart.
In other words, you used all these musicians as models.
Yes. You see, you are a sum of what you know. So I tried to analyze
a lot and understand what they were doing.
You have mentioned in some articles that your father was musical. In
fact, you stated that he was a local band director. How did his influence
direct your musical career?

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 DIZZY GILLESPIE 85

My father was really a music lover. As a matter of fact

extra money that he didn't use to take care of the family w
instruments. So in my house there were all kinds of instrume
What was the first instrument that you learned to play?
The piano-it was the quickest thing that you could pick u
And when did you take up the trumpet?
Oh, my father was dead by then. I was about ten years ol
before I learned to play the trumpet I played the trombone
At what age did you begin your actual musical training?
pick it up by yourself, or did you study with someone?
The school in my hometown got instruments. There we
bands, or anything like that for us, so the state bought us ins
The musical director wanted to start a band right away. I w
and couldn't get my hands around the big instruments, s
guys got them. The only instrument left was the trombone
that.

Did you have formal music instruction?

No. The way I learned to read music was as follows: I us
only in the key of B-flat major for a long time. Miss Alice
3rd and 4th grade school teacher, would put on a little min
started playing the trumpet in school. I could play, but I co
Miss Wilson chose me along with other students to perfo
band.... Miss Wilson gave me my foundation in ear trainin
didn't teach me any music because she couldn't read music h
Soon after I started playing the trumpet I knew that I
become a professional musician; I was about twelve then
been playing around town as well as in school. When I was about
fourteen we started playing for the white schools, high school dances,
and other gigs around town. And then a boy came home named Sonny
Matthews, who was a good musician-a piano player from Baltimore.
He actually became one of those concert persons. He played at my
home.... I could only play in B-flat. One day he asked me if I knew
how to play Nagasaki, and I said yes. And he started off in the key of C
major, and I didn't know where he was. And I cried; I was very un-
happy. After that happened, I was so crushed.... A distant cousin of
mine, Ralph Powell, became a good trombone player at Coulter Memo-
rial Academy, a high school in Cheraw. I was only in junior high school
at the time. He learned to read music. And then he taught another guy
named Norman Ford to read music, and then Norman taught me how
to read; and I can read music to this day. And then I got a scholarship
to Laurinburg Institute in North Carolina.

Can we return for a moment to the topic of the evolution of your

musical style? At one time you performed with Cab Calloway's band. Is

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86 THE BLACK PERSPECTIVE IN MUSIC

it true that the main differences between the two of you stemmed f
the fact that Calloway wanted a "traditional sound" and you want
experiment?
Not necessarily. Cab just wanted a good band behind him. He wasn't
interested in developing any musicians because he always hired estab-
lished musicians. For example, he had in his band "Chu" Berry, Jo
Jones, "Cozy" Coles, Milton Hinton, Hilton Jefferson, Walter Thomas,
Cliff Jackson, etc. They were all high calibre musicians. And he could
get anybody he wanted because he had the money to pay them. He
really wasn't interested in developing any musicians. This [Calloway's
band] was the highest that you could get in New York.
But you were a developed musician at that time.
I was developing-I am still developing. I hadn't really established my
style at that time.. .I worked hard when I was with Cab. I used to practice
all the time. I wouldn't say that the fruition of my style had reached a
point that when you heard me play you would know it was me. Some-
times I would sound like Roy Eldridge; you might hear traces of "Hot
Lips" Page; or "Red" Allen-but mostly Roy Eldridge. You know, this
is all documented. It's there in my records. You can hear the records at
a particular point in my career and you can see how my music devel-
oped.... However, the most important product of my development
happened after I left Cab Calloway-when I met Charlie Parker. That's
when my development really soared.
Charlie Parker was in your band at one time, wasn't he? How did
your relationship with him get started?
Well, we were together in Earl Hines's band in 1942. In the latter
part of 1943 we left Earl Hines's band to play in Billy Eckstein's band.
That part of my development was the most formidable phase of my
career. After I left Earl Hines and Billy Eckstein it [Gillespie's career]
really went up then because I was on my own and could do anything
that I wanted to do.

Let's go back to the topic of your stylistic development? Do you still

practice today?
Yes, if I have something to do. When I hear something, I analyze it. I
am at a point now where I can hear two bars of a piece and develop
that. And from doing this, ideas of my own evolve.

I noticed that when you performed at York College [of the City
University of iVew York] you started playing on the bongos before the
performance. I asked your bass player what you were doing, and he
responded that you were probably experimenting. Did you just get a
revelation at that time to plan a certain beat-pattern?
Yes. I hear something and try to incorporate it into my perform-
ances.

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 DIZZY GILLESPIE 87

I notice that you like the small ensembles.

I like all kinds. I even like the symphony orchestras-that
instrumentation of the symphony orchestra. I have played co
with symphony orchestras.... But having a small group is a m
economics.... The main idea now is to make a decent living. Th
way that I can do that now is to have a small group; and I can
more in different places.
Most jazz historians agree that the opening of the Onyx Club
1940s represented a milestone in the development of jazz.
estimation, what was the historical significance of this event?
The opening of the Onyx Club on 52nd street represented th
ing of the bebop era. The initial group consisted of Max R
[drums], Oscar Pettiford [bass], George Wallington [piano], an
and then Don Byas [tenor sax] came in later. Oscar Pettifor
were co-leaders. We wanted Charlie Parker. We sent him a telegram
he didn't get it.

Mr. Gillespie, would you be willing to discuss some aspect of

personal philosophy about life?
Well, I am a member of the Bahai faith. There is a parallel w
and religion. In jazz, a messenger comes to the music and spre
influence to a certain point, and then another comes and take
further. Well, in religion-in the spiritual sense God picks certa
viduals from this world to lead mankind up to a certain point
itual development. Other leaders come, and they have the sam
spirit in their hands, so they are really one and the same. This
that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and all the major reli
are one and the same. They just come from different intervals
spiritual development. Bahaism teaches us that we are in the ag
unification of mankind. After the Bahai faith is firmly establi
this planet, with all these things that God has promised to his p
mankind will be unified.

If you had to look back over your entire career with all your vast
travels and experiences, what would you say would be the single most
important experience that influenced your life, that influenced your
art?
My association with Charlie Parker would have to be far above any-
thing else that I have ever done musically in my career, in every way.
You are one of the few musicians from the bebop era who is alive
today and working successfully as a performer. To what do you attri-
bute your longevity?
Well, I have been married all my life. My wife is very religious herself,
and that has prevented me from doing things that were detrimental to
me. I needed someone who was in my corer. My wife gave me that

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88 THE BLACK PERSPECTIVE IN MUSIC

strength-like an anchor, and I was scared to do certain thing

been a Bahaist now for only seven years, so what happened be
be attributed to her.

What do you think happened to Charlie Parker?

Too much living! He tried to live it all up. He had a brilliant mind.
What were some of the things that you learned from Parker? Or was
it a matter of the meeting of the two minds?
I guess it was a meeting of the minds, because both of us inspired
each other. There were so many things that Charlie Parker did well. It's
hard to say how he influenced me. You see, he had nothing to do with
my playing the trumpet. I think that I was a little more advanced
harmonically than he was. But rhythmically-that's where he was ad-
vanced. You know, in setting up the phrase; how you get from one note
to another.

I noticed in your playing that you frequently shift from one rhythm
to another.
How you get from one note to another really makes the difference.
For example, the emphasis upon shifting accents and patterns. He
[Charlie Parker] heard rhythms and rhythmic patterns differently. And
after we started playing together, I began to play rhythmically like him.
You know, what makes the style is not what you play but how you
play it.
Mr. Gillespie, how did you happen to write "A Night in Tunisia?"
I was sitting at the piano looking at one of those small movies-those
movies that we used to have where you could put a penny in the slot
and watch. I believe they were called nickelodeons. (This was around
1942.) Maxine Sullivan and Benny were making it, and I was in Benny
Carter's band. Well, I was improvising at the piano with chords changes.
Actually they were thirteenth chords-A13 resolving to B minor. I
looked at the notes of the chords as I played the progression, and I
noticed that they formed a melody. And then, all I had to do was to
put the time to it. The time came out of the bebop style-how we
played rhythmically.

Of all your compositions that you have written, which work(s) are
critical in your stylistic evolution?
That's difficult to say because each tune came at a different phase of
my career. Each solved certain musical problems.
Could you cite an example of some of the problems that you were
trying to resolve in another composition?
Well, when I made "All the things you are" with Charlie Parker, I
used a classic introduction that almost everybody plays. Later on, I got

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 DIZZY GILLESPIE 89

tired of this and started fooling around with other prog

made changes. I built upon what I had done before.
I know that there are African-Cuban elements in your
you employ these elements instinctively, or did you plan this
I have always been interested in harmony and rhythm
rhythms from different ethnic backgrounds. I am not an
these things, but I am sophisticated enough rhythmically
the differences. I learned something recently in Romani
gypsies. They employ a rhythm in 11/8 meter. [Gillespie
this rhythm:

sJV rTJTJ and n m JJm m

How did the nicknames "Bird" and "Dizzy" come about?
Now I really do not know how "Yardbird" came about. But in the
army, you know, the lowest ranking soldier [lower than a buck private]
was called that. About "Dizzy," on the other hand-when I came to
Philadelphia [in 1935] they started calling me that. They did not know
my name. I was just "that dizzy trumpet player from down south who
carried his trumpet around in a paper bag."
If one could summarize what we have talked about in this interview,
it would seem that you feel that your inspiration has come from your
experimentation with chord progressions and phrasing, which con-
stitute the two most important aspects of your style.
The most important aspect of my style right now is phrasing-that is
the way that I play.

York College of the City University of New York

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