Shore, Robert. "Philip-Lorca diCorcia: The Art of Throwing Darts." Elephant (Winter 2013): 98-111 [ill.

IV

Ph
Abraham, 2010, from the East of Eden series, inkjet print, 101.6 x 152.4 cm

TH
All

98
 Encounters

Philip-Lorca
diCorcia
THE
ART
O
F
THROWING
DARTS
Text by Robert Shore
All images courtesy of the artist and David Zwirner, New York/London

99
 Encounters
The photographer tells Robert Shore how the bottom dropped out of a lot of things
(including, in a way, editorial photography) in 2008 and how, despite his seminal role
in the development of photography as art form and cultural weapon in the nineties
(alongside Larry Clark and Nan Goldin), he has ambiguous feelings about the new
wave of art photography and the contemporary art world itself.
Philip-Lorca diCorcia, one of the great image-makers of
the last decades, made a return to the art frontline this au-
tumn when his gallery, David Zwirner, staged two shows
of his work simultaneously on either side of the Atlantic. In
New York, to coincide with the publication of a book by
Steidldangin, diCorcias iconic Hustlers (199092) series
the basis of his first solo museum exhibition, held at MoMA
in 1993 went on display. In London, meanwhile, Zwirner
presented his most recent collection, East of Eden, a series
of large-scale images reflecting on the collapse of every-
thing and loss of innocence triggered by the financial
meltdown in the US in 2008. Tropes and set-ups familiar
from his earlier work recur theres a pole dancer, the-
atrically heightened tableaux redolent of his celebrated
fashion-based work for W magazine but also some more
unexpected elements: not least, evocative, widescreen
Californian landscapes.
Sitting with his arms tightly crossed over his chest, di-
Corcia (known as PL around the gallery) is a master of
candid photography and proves a no less candid interview-
ee. We begin by talking about the London show, his first in
the capital with Zwirner.
It was definitely not an economic decision [to mount it],
he says. I dont know if they make any money off a show
like mine. One of the virtues of David Zwirner is that he
does carry people for a long time. It may not seem like that
because hes turned into a bit of a juggernaut and taken on
some very obvious, expensive artists. But from his incep-
tion, I guess 15 years ago, hes had people that make no
money. Eventually, maybe it does pay off. There are very
Head #23, 2001, from the Heads series, Fujicolor Crystal
Archive print, 121.9 x 152.4 cm
100
few galleries these days that do that, certainly not of the
size that hes become.
Why wont your London show make money?
To be honest, I dont think Great Britain is the most so-
phisticated photographic market, theyre still a little bit stuck
in the past. Although I think the work that I do has had a lot
of attention paid to the way that it looks, its not decorative.
So the US is a more sophisticated market for photogra-
phy?
Its a much bigger market. The East Coast, the West
Coast, whatevers in between.
Whats the difference between the UK and US?
For one thing, there are photography collectors [in the
US], people who concentrate in that field. The economics
of the art world, the speculative aspect, has come increas-
ingly into play. The hysteria about the prices that people
charge for things is very often based on the idea that
you can resell it for even more. In the photography world,
with very few exceptions and mostly the exceptions be-
ing those photographers who distance themselves from the
word photography, like Cindy Sherman or Andreas Gur-
sky or whatever the speculative aspect of buying a work
is not as prominent. Some art collectors buy work and it
goes straight to a warehouse. That just doesnt happen in
the photography world.
DiCorcia is a master both of the faux-candid image (Hus-
tlers, Heads) and of more obviously staged tableaux (his
shoots for W). The pictures in East of Eden feel very delib-
erate; some of the titling is biblical. Is the machinery around
his work becoming more elaborate?
101
Philip-Lorca diCorcia

Cain and Abel, 2013, from the East of Eden series,

inkjet print, 100.3 x 124.5 cm
Lacy, 2008, inkjet print, 101.6 x 152.4 cm
 Encounters
Stockton, California, 2009, from the East of Eden series,
inkjet print, 101.6 x 152.4 cm

Not really. Ive

presented by othe
be doing some kin
of the fact that I h
couple of example
Cain and Abel s
falling into a gay
Eve was genera
for Rizzoli. I didn
because I knew I h
Though its give
work in the past, h
mercial work.
I tend to refuse
cause thats beco
in anything interes
care what their na
have some sort of
at the forefront of
more. The exampl
that world does
personalities: who
willing to go over b
to some corner of
produce well, as
a relationship betw
Andrea, 2008, from the East of Eden series,

ing to make I nev

anything except th
inkjet print, 101.6 x 152.4 cm

somewhere, beca
the world. But oth
want. And if you sa
theyd figure out a
all day in the opera
just go and do one
East of Eden is
ment; it sounds a
sionment persona
I was as affecte
about disillusionm
he says. The botto
story I did for W, f
also about the tim
says, a feeling of
done in the past:
ground, sometime
what Im going to
the series, somet
jumping-off point
though hes not su

104
 Philip-Lorca diCorcia

Theres no commercial consideration.

I dont go: This ones going
to be a big seller

Not really. Ive always taken advantage of opportunities
presented by other opportunities, in the sense that I might
be doing some kind of commercial job and take advantage
of the fact that I have a crew and a location. There are a
couple of examples of that in this exhibition. For instance,
Cain and Abel showing two men, who may or may not be
falling into a gay embrace on a bed, overseen by a naked
Eve was generated by a shoot for a book about Valentino
for Rizzoli. I didnt pay to rent that hotel room. I just used it
because I knew I had it.
Though its given him significant opportunities for his own
work in the past, he says that he no longer does much com-
mercial work.
I tend to refuse to do editorial assignments any more be-
cause thats become a joke. Theyre kind of not interested
in anything interesting. They dont have any budgets. I dont
care what their name is, Elephant or Vogue, they generally
have some sort of corporate entity that has the bottom line
at the forefront of the ethos, so I dont want to do that any
more. The example of having worked for W for those 11 years
that world does not exist any more. Partly its a matter of
personalities: whos willing to say OK, do this, or whos
willing to go over budget, whos willing to fly everybody over
to some corner of the world and spend a week in order to
produce well, as you probably know, in magazines theres
a relationship between budget and how many pages its go-
ing to make I never had anyone during that period tell me
anything except that we gotta get the Armani dress in here
somewhere, because hes the biggest fashion advertiser in
the world. But other than that they just let you do what you
want. And if you said you wanted to shoot in the opera house,
theyd figure out a way to do it. And you didnt have to spend
all day in the opera house shooting the entire story, you could
just go and do one picture. That never happens any more.
East of Eden is about a loss of innocence and disillusion-
images. In this case Im willing to bet that most people
need a press release to work out what that series is about,
he says.
The prints are large-scale but of course diCorcia is one
of the seminal figures in the late twentieth-century shift to
Big Photography. When the Dsseldorf School broke out,
everything seemed tiny. They very deliberately tried to dis-
associate themselves with photography through scale I
dont think the size of my prints increased simply for that
purpose. If you think about it, one of the last projects I did
was the Polaroids [Roids, shown at Sprth Magers in Lon-
don in 2010] theyre tiny. There just happens to be a lot
of them. I think this whole size thing came because photo-
graphs and paintings were being shown in the same room
and its really hard: I think photography suffers a lot when
you put it in the same room with paintings. It loses its at-
traction, its whatever its almost impossible to suspend
disbelief somehow.
Theres no commercial consideration, he says of his
work. I dont go: This ones going to be a big seller, or any-
thing like that. And, to be honest, the ones that do actually
wind up being big sellers are rarely my favourite. They al-
ways seem a little bit oversimplified. In this show I would say
the two dogs watching pornography is not the photograph
Im most proud of because its an illustration basically, and
illustrations are always by their nature clipped in their pos-
sibilities of meaning. I could say that about the Hustlers too.
The most popular one by far is the one where this drag
queen mimics Marilyn Monroe. Everybody loves that one.
Its so obvious.
W, September 2000, #6, 2000, archival

ment; it sounds as though he has experienced that disillu-

sionment personally.
pigment print, 81.3 x 106.7 cm

I was as affected by things that Im referring to when I talk

about disillusionment as anyone else in the United States,
he says. The bottom dropped out of a lot of things. The last
story I did for W, for instance, was done in 2008. That was
also about the time he joined David Zwirner. There was, he
says, a feeling of what next?, so he did what he has often
done in the past: I tend to try to develop a conceptual back-
ground, sometimes simplistic, as a jumping-off point for
what Im going to do. Sometimes it retains itself throughout
the series, sometimes it just gets you out the door. The
jumping-off point this time was the Book of Genesis, al-
though hes not sure that thats apparent in a lot of the final

105
 Mike Vincetti, 24 Years Old, New York, New York, $30, 199092,
from the Hustlers series, chromogenic print, 60.3 x 91.1 cm

106
Encounters
107
Philip-Lorca diCorcia

Mike, 26 Years Old, $40, 199092, from the Hustlers series,

chromogenic print, 60.3 x 91.1 cm
 Encounters
Hustlers, of course, marked diCorcias arrival in the major
league. The project was funded by a National Endowment
for the Arts bursary (along with Guggenheim Foundation
money) and was made against the background of the early
nineties US Culture Wars, a post-AIDS pitting of conser-
vatives against progressives that shone particular light
on federal funding for the arts: 1989, the year diCorcia
received his grant, marked the controversy over plans to
show Robert Mapplethorpes The Perfect Moment at the
Corcoran Gallery in Washington, DC, with NEA support.
Was Hustlers a series of staged portraits of male pros-
titutes in LA, captioned with their names, home town, age
and (most controversially) the amount of money they
charged a deliberate shot fired in the Culture Wars?
I dont know that it was conscious, says diCorcia. I lived
in New York City in a world which was, lets say, very inclu-
sive My brother was gay. I would say 50 per cent of the
people I knew were, both men and women. Though shot on
the opposite coast, Hustlers grew naturally out of that con-
text. The idea that these guys were commodities and objec-
tified has a direct relationship to paying them, and I was us-
ing the governments money to pay them. I dont know if that
was a eureka moment or I carefully planned it out, but once
it occurred to me it seemed so kind of perfect I just went
ahead with it. He doesnt recall the right-wing lobby react-
ing to the images, which managed to enter the artistic main-
stream after all, they were shown at MoMA. Rather: The
questions at that time were: why did you choose just men?
Why dont we ever see anything of their personal life? How
come theres no depiction of what they do which would
have been the normal photojournalistic approach to that.
The reaction against normal photojournalism was the
starting point for Hustlers, then: photojournalism is just
telling you what you already know, its fulfilling your expec-
tations, and thats fine if it serves a purpose. But as an art
form it doesnt really have much depth. As a photographer
with photojournalism as the predominant mode of photog-
raphy when I started, I was trying to change out. I guess the
point was, you can know a lot about life through photogra-
phy but youre probably not learning very much about the
particular subject. So there couldnt be a better way to do
that than with people who portray themselves as something
that theyre not.
How would you situate yourself in terms of the photo-
graphic tradition? With someone like Larry Clark, for in-
stance?
The usual question is more like: Do you have a fascina-
tion with the underbelly? [Laughs.] And I would say: Yes,
Theres something about having so
many images around Instead of 150
images, you wind up with 2,000.
Its ridiculous
108
maybe. Of course, everyone knows that I went to school
with Nan Goldin and David Armstrong and people who
have a reputation that is based upon what people assume
to be their lifestyle. Ive never wanted to make work that
people would assume had something to do with me, be-
cause I feel like thats always the case. Artists work always
reflects them in some way or another. To have it actually be
about them, as with Larry Clark and Nan, is not interesting
to me.
Though you sometimes use your own family in your work.
Yeah, but you wouldnt know that theyre members of my
own family. Its easy to use members of your own family,
theyre available.
Its your own son youre throwing a dart at in the Abraham
shot in East of Eden. How did he feel about that?
Hes used to being photographed not just by me, but
by Nan, for instance. And he didnt mind at all. Im not sure
I explained to him exactly what I was doing [laughs], but of
course throwing darts at your own son is He pauses. I
didnt plan to do that, to be honest. Some of the best photo-
graphs are the ones where youve sort of got a vague idea
in your mind and head towards it and then get diverted into
something that you didnt expect and it turns out to be better.
Though they may not know quite how the image will turn
out, most of diCorcias subjects know they are being pho-
tographed. He famously departed from this practice for his
Heads series, shot in Times Square in Manhattan between
1999 and 2001 using strobe lighting. One of the unsuspect-
ing subjects, Erno Nussenzweig, was very displeased that
his image had been used in this way although most critics
found the works unusually and existentially revealing and
sued. He had his religious reasons. But, quite frankly, I
think $1.6 million, which is what they sued me for, was also
sort of a motivation, reflects diCorcia now. The way that
the litigation system for those things in the United States
works is that it costs so much to defend yourself, you gen-
erally make a settlement because youre going to pay your
lawyer that much anyway. I had a lawyer who worked pro
bono and he did it because it was a constitutional rights
issue But the actual law that they [Nussenzweigs team]
invoked was that you cannot use a persons image in com-
merce or advertising without their permission. So they were
claiming that an art gallery is commerce and the catalogue
was advertising and, you know, in a way I dont disagree
with that. Quite frankly, if somebody did the same thing to
me I wouldnt be happy. [But] I wouldnt sue them. How
art, which is very clearly about money these days, slips the
109
Philip-Lorca diCorcia

Ralph Smith, 21 Years Old, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, $25, 199092, Eddie Anderson, 21 Years Old, Houston, Texas, $20, 199092, from
from the Hustlers series, chromogenic print, 78.1 x 92.4 cm the Hustlers series, chromogenic print, 60.3 x 89.9 cm
 Encounters

noose by being f
this court case w
mendment protec
artists.

DiCorcias initial a
I got out I didnt h
grand plan seemin
New York, 1997, Ektacolor print, 76.2 x 101.6 cm

fessional life. The

opted to go to gra
department found
ular point of view,
when I went for my
ferns with black-a
think I wouldnt ha
tional period. Wal
were looking for a
And now I teach th
At the walk-thro
someone had sug
teaches there bec
still up in the air?
me, he says. Th
But its also that,
youre not just sit
you have to have s
work, and increas
raphy as an art fo
He says that he se
duced, involving
finds it hard to en
started out using
as was in the seve
into it. And now st
tual tool. I was int
now. Having to crit
lightly because th
W, November 2003, #12, 2003, archival pigment print, 81.3 x 106.7 cm

quite disturbing to
emotional currenc
I dont like it, I ha
and more difficult
ered with that.
At that walk-thro
clear that he does
been having on h
little 35mm still-an
I dont hate it,
Its too complicat
ing analogue film.
allows for digital m
bellybutton of the
erated from Adam
cal cord to tie off)
He says he doe
the world. The pr
technology also b
tact sheet made f
something about
When people sho
film. Instead of 150
iculous. I might ha
which has an easi

110
 Philip-Lorca diCorcia

noose by being freedom of expression was a lot of what

Head #7, 2001, from the Heads series, Fujicolor Crystal

this court case was about. As the judge said: [F]irst [A]
mendment protection of art is not limited to only starving
artists.

Archive print, 121.9 x 152.4 cm

DiCorcias initial art education happened in Boston. When
I got out I didnt have a grand plan, he says the lack of a
grand plan seemingly being something of a motif in his pro-
fessional life. There was a recession on at the time, so he
opted to go to graduate school and ended up at Yale, in the
department founded by Walker Evans. It had a very partic-
ular point of view, he says. Half the people that were there
when I went for my first interview took pictures of rocks and
ferns with black-and-white large-format cameras. I actually
think I wouldnt have got in two years later. It was in a transi-
tional period. Walker Evans had just died [in 1975] and they
were looking for a replacement, so that was the way it went.
And now I teach there, and its a completely different place.
At the walk-through at the gallery a couple of days earlier,
someone had suggested that, actually, diCorcia no longer control whats in focus, whats not in focus. Thats almost
teaches there because hes quit. Is that true, or is the matter impossible with 35mm digital. Its boring to even explain
still up in the air? No, I did [quit]. Im not sure they believed why but its true. And the larger ones are incredibly expen-
me, he says. There were probably some petty reasons. sive and outmoded in two years.
But its also that, in order to be good at that, to feel like DiCorcia has started attending art fairs not many, per-
youre not just sitting up there bullshitting [your students], haps (Ive been to half a dozen in my entire career), but
you have to have some relationship or enthusiasm about the all since he moved to his new gallery. Almost all of it was
work, and increasingly the work that comes out of photog- intentionally in support of David Zwirner. I never went to art
raphy as an art form has no relationship to any actualities. fairs before. Art fairs in their prominence and their com-
He says that he sees a significant shift in the art being pro- mercial impact basically have come to dominate and I just
duced, involving a level of abstraction that he seemingly wanted to help these people because theyre trying to help
finds it hard to engage with. The work is very different I me: by showing up, by going to the dinner, by doing all of
started out using photography as a kind of conceptual tool, that stuff, like being a player and not trying to seem as if
as was in the seventies common usage, and thats how I got Im above the fray. But I dont find art fairs interesting Its
into it. And now strangely its come full circle, its a concep- such a blatant display of commerce. And also you get to
tual tool. I was interested in it then, Im not interested in it see all the customers and thats a kind of rude awakening
now. Having to critique peoples work is not something I take as well.
lightly because they dont take it lightly. Your words can be Has the kind of person who buys art changed so very
quite disturbing to somebody whos spent a lot of effort and much?
emotional currency in doing something I dont just say I didnt have to see it [before], he deadpans.
I dont like it, I have to explain why, and its become more Art education is becoming ever more popular, and the art
and more difficult to come up with the energy to be both- world ever more globalized. I went to graduate school at a
ered with that. time when going to graduate school as a pathway to an art
At that walk-through a few days before hed also made it career was a waste of time, says diCorcia. Now, in every
clear that he doesnt care for the impact the Canon 5D has corner of the world, there are artists that are no different
been having on his students work. Why does he hate the in terms of their training and their knowledge than anyone
little 35mm still-and-moving-image marvel so much? in New York or LA. And once certain trends within art get
I dont hate it, its just so prominent. Everyone has one. established, they get played out all over the world, not just
Its too complicated for me, he shrugs. He still shoots us- in the centres, the traditional five cities or wherever.
ing analogue film. The negatives are then scanned, which Is that an interesting phenomenon? Are the variations in-
allows for digital manipulations such as the removal of the teresting?
bellybutton of the Eve figure in Cain and Abel (Eve was gen- Well, it makes it harder to remember anybodys name.
erated from Adams rib so there would have been no umbili-
cal cord to tie off).
He says he doesnt like the way digital cameras render
the world. The profusion of images that goes with filmless
technology also bothers him. Although you can get a con-
tact sheet made from what you do I dont know, theres
something about having so many images around, he says.
When people shoot digitally, you never have to change the
film. Instead of 150 images, you wind up with 2,000. Its rid-
iculous. I might have considered using large-format digital,
which has an easier capacity to control the things I like to

111