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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Penny for your thoughts Mind Reading by Kenton Knepper(0Likes)

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Posted: Aug 24, 2005 07:40 am
PapaG 0

Anyone have any info on this:

http://www.murphysmagicsupplies.com/cata......ING.html

Special user
731 Posts

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 12:03 pm

mattisdx 0

Darn it. I thought this was Kenton's new release rumored to be titled, "$40 Dollar Toilet Paper". Guess I'll have to keep waiting on that
one...

Inner circle
1614 Posts

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 12:16 pm

Millard123 0

I just nished my rst read of Kenton's Mind Reading book and found a lot of useful info for making mind reading appear to be real,
but the real jewel in this book is Enrique Enriquez!

Enrique has some very good ideas that he shares in this book; I am very impressed with his thinking.
Millard Longman
Regular user
Millard Longman
See all my products at:
169 Posts
www.mevproshop.com

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 06:35 pm

Mystician 0

Quote:

Inner circle On 2005-08-24 13:03, mattisdx wrote:

Wallachia Darn it. I thought this was Kenton's new release rumored to be titled, "$40 Dollar Toilet Paper". Guess
3482 Posts
I'll have to keep waiting on that one...

lol
Are you suggesting that Mr. Knepper is also now a supplier to the Pentagon ?
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com
Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net
Posted: Aug 24, 2005 07:34 pm
Simone 0

The ad on this sounds amazing. What's wrong with it?

 New user
48 Posts

Posted: Aug 24, 2005 08:29 pm

Juan D 0

It is a known fact that Kenton Stuff may not be suitable for anyone and makes use of advanced techniques which may not work
properly on a close-up environment or with an small audience.

However, I'm awaiting for my copy of this book and I'm pretty sure that I'll nd something that will make the book to pay by itself (This
book contains contributions from some mentalists that I know for sure, will provide some top ideas). I would like to see someday a big
Elite user Kenton compilation.
482 Posts
It'd be great.
Posted: Aug 24, 2005 09:35 pm
Brady 0

Simone,

What Juan means is that Kenton talks a lot about methods, nuances and presentation instead of giving one trick after another (using
the fewest number of words possible). To many, that is absurd chatter and they paid good money for tricks, tricks and more tricks. I
purchased "Mindreading" and I have read about a quarter of it. I have taken a lot out of that already. What I can tell you is, if you want
Loyal user to learn how to perform mindreading and mentalism as a professional might, this is a good read for you. If, however, you prefer going
Los Angeles, CA
235 Posts
from coins across to color changing knives to a headline prediction, spend you money on a new expanded quarter.

From what I have read of your other posts, I believe you will like it.

Regards,

Brady
Posted: Aug 24, 2005 10:35 pm
Mystician 0

Actually, the debate goes deeper than that.

Some question his claims, others, his sales methodology.
I think it can be said that a lot of "Kentonism" (mostly Wonder Words, though) is a mainly a derivative of NLP, Neuro-Linguistic
Programming, which claims to be able to manipulate people through the structured use of carefully chosen words; often by merely
Inner circle
Wallachia using vague references so that the spectator can "ll in the blanks" in their own mind, which makes the experience more personal.
3482 Posts Actually, that part's very easy, as the English language itself (or perhaps our lack of mastery of it) more than lends itself to the task: for
example, in my 3rd sentence, "which claims to be able to manipulate people through the structured use of carefully chosen words",
was I referring to Kentonism, or NLP ? or both ?
Kenton's followers swear by these techniques, which can be used practically as effects themselves, or to enhance almost any effect
you can think of.
One of his more famous effects is Kollosal Killer, which, if nothing else, can be used as an "out", but has evolved into mulitple card
revelations itself.
I own this, and have for months, but interestingly, I have not yet tried it.
I can't seem to keep enough bills in my wallet, for one ! (If you get it, you'll know what I'm talking about).
Many swear by this, yet others say it's transparent and an intelligent spectator will see right through the deception.

Here's where he and the non-followers part ways:

(and I haven't really read that much of his work yet, or practiced it in the real world, to really form my own judgement, but I will repeat
what I've heard others say and add a few comments of my own based on what I've read)
Now, while few would deny that there are certainly grains of truth to what he preaches, part of the problem that people have with him,
is that they feel he kind of blows things out of proportion, using grandiose terminology for otherwise pretty straightforward things, and
claiming the little psychological tricks that might seem obvious to us, or common sense, as some kind of wonderous, breakthrough,
small miracle or something, and lastly, claiming that the spectator(s) will be fooled and amazed by these things.
There is one thing I do personally know of, that kind of irks me:
For example, in his reknowned Wonder Words audio series, he refers to something called "Unspecied Referential Index".. which, to
the rest of the world, is known as a " pronoun ".
Why he doesn't just call it that, I don't know, but that's really what he's talking about, and he does kind of build it up to be much more
than that.
He also kind of talks a lot without saying anything signicant at times, as though he's just padding the audio tape to give it more
substance than it's really got. He could get the idea across just as vividly, while being more succinct.
He does come across as a really likable guy though, on the other hand.

On the whole, denitely check him out. There are some very good thoughts and ideas from him, you just need to take a machete with
you to get through the weeds sometimes.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com
Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net
Posted: Aug 24, 2005 11:04 pm
ivan7 0

The problem is he typically charges industry standard hardcover book prices for stapled booklets that are 30 pages of mostly fluff
that typically says the same thing his wonder words tapes (which are of value) say and act as ad copy for his other booklets.

Basically, instead of doing what most people do and publish a 300 page book, he takes the book and sells you each chapter for the
same price he should be selling you the entire book for. Lots of mentalism books follow the same rip-off formula and are overpriced
Regular user for what they contain compared to other similar works (ie. compare Theatre of the Mind to Beckers Stunners. Both of similar value,
but Becker likes to charge 5 times what he should).
 146 Posts

Posted: Aug 25, 2005 04:18 am

Ken Dyne 0

I think what has to be remembered is that the same applies with any publication. if you want the know how, you8 have to pay for it. if
Kenton, or anyone else is asking for $400.00 and you want the information inside, you have to pay $400.00 for it.

Its down to your want, how much you want the information. if you don't want it badly enough then you don't buy it. I had a similar
situation when I released my book Thoughts So Far. People would ask why I am charging that price. In honesty everyone I have heard
Inner circle of regarding my book said it was worth more. I agree because, much like many of the best books out there including Kenton's, I
UK released my working material. Not drawing room fantasies but thigns that I have worked and amazed real people with. In Kenton's
2266 Posts
case he performs his work, and very well.

Its like any purchase, if you nd somehtign in there, whether it be a "trick", a subtelty, a nuance then every time you perform it it
becomes cheaper. The rst time it might have cost you 32.00, the second only 16, the third only 8 etc.

Best,
Kennedy
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book:
http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
Posted: Aug 25, 2005 09:06 am
rgranville 0

Quote:

Mystician said:
Elite user
Boston area There is one thing I do personally know of, that kind of irks me:
462 Posts For example, in his reknowned Wonder Words audio series, he refers to something called "Unspecied
Referential Index".. which, to the rest of the world, is known as a " pronoun ".
Why he doesn't just call it that, I don't know, but that's really what he's talking about, and he does kind
of build it up to be much more than that.

As one who wrote his thesis on pronouns (or to be more accurate, on lexical substitutions that mark subsequent reference, of which
the pronoun is one such linguistic device), I can tell you pronouns are more complicated than you might think. But that's just pedantry
on my part...

Knepper strongly believes that magic happens in the spectators' minds, and expends most of his energy striving to create and
enhance that experience. Whether his methods are subtle and powerful or obvious and foolish is up to the individual reader. (I lean
towards the former myself.) But even for fans, Knepper's writings admittedly do have more than their share of self-promotional
hyperbole. I accept that as a given and try to look beyond that to the ideas he's sharing.

And yes, Knepper charges rather high fees for his works. Whether you will nd his works worth those fees is up to you. I personally do.

:banana:
Posted: Aug 25, 2005 09:51 am
Brady 0

Quote:

On 2005-08-24 23:35, Mystician wrote:

Actually, the debate goes deeper than that.
Loyal user
Los Angeles, CA Some question his claims, others, his sales methodology.
235 Posts I think it can be said that a lot of "Kentonism" (mostly Wonder Words, though) is a mainly a derivative
of NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, which claims to be able to manipulate people through the
structured use of carefully chosen words; often by merely using vague references so that the
spectator can "ll in the blanks" in their own mind, which makes the experience more personal.

Isn't all of magic derived from other things and applied in unusual ways. Isn't floating a dollar bill, just physics being applied in an
unusaul way? Isn't card manipulation just covert juggling? Isn't all of magic and mentalism just manipulating people to see or hear
something that are not the case? I mean, it's not real magick, right?

Quote:

One of his more famous effects is Kollosal Killer, which, if nothing else, can be used as an "out", but
has evolved into mulitple card revelations itself.
I own this, and have for months, but interestingly, I have not yet tried it.
I can't seem to keep enough bills in my wallet, for one ! (If you get it, you'll know what I'm talking
about).
 Many swear by this, yet others say it's transparent and an intelligent spectator will see right through
the deception.

I have Kollosal Killer. For a while I was using it alot. I stopped using it because the cards kept getting soiled after a while and I got tired
of making up the set. But when I used it, my audiences were floored. I used it as a "spectator becomes mindreader" effect. Whether
they hit the card or I used the out, they were amazed. And I found that Kenton was right, the audience were more amazed when I used
the out than when it was a direct hit.

I guess it can be transparent, just as any effect can be, if it is not done right.

Regards,

Brady
Posted: Aug 25, 2005 12:15 pm
Millard123 0

Quote:

On 2005-08-24 20:34, Simone wrote:

The ad on this sounds amazing. What's wrong with it?
Regular user
Millard Longman
169 Posts

Hi Simone,

This book has nothing wrong with it! In fact, you in particular may especially like it.

Kentons premise in this book is to take many of the methods used to perform psychic readings and rework them to perform mind
readings.

I am speaking here of psychic readings without an oracle such as Tarot. These are readings more like Psychometry or Aura readings
where the psychic gets visions.

Kenton and his students provide a plethora of methods to perform these readings. There are also many outs given for when the
readings fail; some of these outs are actually built into the readings.

Although I am a fan of Kentons, I have also been disappointed in some of his products. No one is perfect! No one knows exactly what
we as customers would like to learn and perform.

I myself am a practicing Psychic Reader and Healer; I use methods that are different from what magicians and mentalists may use.
You can get my products exclusively from Loren Tindall. Loren can be reached at http://www.mevproshop.com/ where you can also
read about his products. You can also ask here on the Caf for reviews of my products; there may be some here that like my stuff. I
am especially excited about my latest audio on doing real readings.

I have received many rave reviews of my own products, but there are also some customers that are unpleased with their purchases.
As I said above no one is perfect!

So here is the bottom line: the one single product of Kentons that you in particular should try is Mind Reading!

Millard
Millard Longman

See all my products at:

www.mevproshop.com
Posted: Aug 25, 2005 02:47 pm
shrink 0

Mystician wrote:

There is one thing I do personally know of, that kind of irks me:
For example, in his reknowned Wonder Words audio series, he refers to something called "Unspecied Referential Index".. which, to
the rest of the world, is known as a " pronoun ".
Inner circle
2609 Posts
The term unspecied Rererential Index is an NLP term. Although a pro noun can be one. Unspecied Referential Index can appear
with no pro noun involved. It is not a pro noun it means that there is a reference made that hasn't been specied.

For example.. "Kenton's work is to expensive". There is an Unspecied referential index in that sentence. Expensive compared to who
or what? By changing the referential Index you change the meaning. For example compared to most books you buy in the store or
compared the value you get if you use the material.

By specifying or unspecifying a referential index you will manipulate the meaning of a sentence and the suggestion inherant within..

Shrink
Posted: Aug 25, 2005 02:54 pm
shrink 0

Quote:
 On 2005-08-25 00:04, ivan7 wrote:
The problem is he typically charges industry standard hardcover book prices for stapled booklets that
are 30 pages of mostly fluff that typically says the same thing his wonder words tapes (which are of
value) say and act as ad copy for his other booklets.

Inner circle
Basically, instead of doing what most people do and publish a 300 page book, he takes the book and
2609 Posts sells you each chapter for the same price he should be selling you the entire book for. Lots of
mentalism books follow the same rip-off formula and are overpriced for what they contain compared
to other similar works (ie. compare Theatre of the Mind to Beckers Stunners. Both of similar value, but
Becker likes to charge 5 times what he should).

You can't value a book by its weight or number of pages. Especially in this very small market. Its value is derived in the material within.
For me personally I thought Theatre of the Mind was a fun read but there is very little in it I could use. Therefore to me the asking price
is about right. ( I think the book is over rated) I would rather pay ve more times for a booklet with only one effect in it if it was a really
strong effect I could use.

Shrink
Posted: Aug 25, 2005 05:54 pm
nimrod 0

I want to see Kenton working. This is the thing I doubt the most about him. Someone had to say it.

Nimrod , Israel
http://nimrodharel.com

Special user
863 Posts

Posted: Aug 25, 2005 10:09 pm

David Numen 0

Does it matter what he is like as a performer?

The history of Mentalism is replete with creators who were pretty lousy performers. It doesn't mean that their creations weren't
worthwhile!

Inner circle
1640 Posts

Posted: Aug 25, 2005 10:21 pm

Franmonet 0

Has anybody done reading using this book and if so what were the results?
Heck is for people who don't believe in gosh

New user
88 Posts

Posted: Aug 26, 2005 05:06 am

Ken Dyne 0

I saw Kenton perform his own material from his books including some things from Miraculous Ploys and Wonder Words this year at
Blackpool, England. His performances are really engaging. His presence is fantastic. It really made me happy to see him performing
some of his material. I know I was performing some of it and to see its creator using it on people was very afrming.

Best,
Inner circle Kennedy
UK
2266 Posts MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book:
http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
Posted: Aug 26, 2005 06:27 am
Reuben Dunn 0

I echo an earlier question; This thread has devolved on the +/- of Knepper, rather than the specic question about the quality of the
book.

I'm wondering if anyone here has it; and if so, have they read it.

Inner circle If the answer is yes to both, could someone do a bit of a reivew of the book?
Has a purple ribbon
wraped around my
1570 Posts
Thanks.
Regards

Reuben Dunn

www.reubendunn.com

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