Scituate Zoning Board Transcript - August 29, 2017 - Case #1200 - Hope Mill Project

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1 TOWN OF SCITUATE
2 ZONING BOARD OF REVIEW
3 7:00 P.M.
4 TUESDAY, AUGUST 29, 2017
5 SCITUATE HIGH SCHOOL AUDITORIUM
94 TRIMTOWN ROAD
6 NORTH SCITUATE, RHODE ISLAND
7
8
9 RE: Case #1200, Paramount Development Group
Location of premises 1 Main Street (Hope)
10 Assessor's Plat 3-Lot 8; Plat 5-Lots 1, 114,
117; M (Manufacturing) VO (Village Overlay)
11 Under the Zoning Ordinance
12
13 ZONING BOARD MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE:
14 Dennis Charland, Acting Chairman
Paul Durfee
15 Dean N. Costakos
Ed Rambone
16 Joseph D. D'Amico
Steve Gaddes
17
18 Peter Ruggiero, Town Solicitor
Calista McDermott, Secretary
19
20
21
22
23
24
C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

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1 (PROCEEDING COMMENCED 7:11 P.M.)

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Good evening, ladies
3 and gentlemen. I thank you for coming out tonight.
4 My name is Dennis Charland and I was, at the last
5 meeting, the acting chairperson of the Zoning Board
6 and I will be the acting chair as we go through
7 this entire process so bear with me.
8 I do ask for your attention as we re-open the
9 continuation of the August 1, 2017 hearing of the
10 Hope Mill Development Project. As noted in the
11 last meeting, this is complicated, certainly a
12 complicated project that we need to fully vet as
13 you go through. We want to get the pros and cons
14 and everything associated with it on the record.
15 We want to use those in our decision making. We
16 want to make sure this is in the best interest of
17 not only the village of Hope but the whole town of
18 Scituate.
19 A few ground rules: I request anyone with
20 cellular phones, a beeper or anything like that,
21 that likely will go off and distract that you
22 silence it. If you do need to accept a phone call,
23 please go outside in the lobby area so it is not
24 distracting to everyone else.

3
1 Anyone who has attended the meetings, not just

2 this meeting but other meetings of the town in this
3 auditorium knows that oftentimes you can't hear all
4 of the speaking that goes on. So I'd ask that if
5 you want to have a personal conversation with
6 somebody, again, take that outside so that
7 everybody can hear because as you see in the
8 auditorium we can't always hear everything.
9 The meeting is being tape recorded and we also
10 have a stenographer who is taking the record of the
11 meeting. This is the legal record for -- should
12 anybody be -- at the end of this whole process
13 decides to challenge the legal aspects of this and
14 tries to get it overturned, this will serve as the
15 documentation of all that has transpired with the
16 activities.
17 The transcript of the hearing is then used to
18 document the testimony during the meeting. Anybody
19 who is speaking, I ask that you identify yourself,
20 your address and the entity if you're representing
21 another entity, what that entity is.
22 When speaking, speak into the microphone so
23 that we can make sure that everybody hears it as
24 well as the stenographer can get that as well.

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1 While we consider it your right to have your

2 testimony on the record, please understand that I
3 do have to cut you short when you are either
4 addressing issues that are not part of the zoning
5 board issues or if you're continuing to ask or
6 comment on issues that have already been covered.
7 I apologize to those of you who were not at
8 the last meeting because we are not going to go
9 through all of the information that was presented
10 before. If you are interested in that, I urge you
11 to get a copy of the transcript of last month's,
12 the October 1st (SIC) meeting so that you can
13 review all of the information that was presented.
14 The information is there, all the diagrams and
15 everything else is available at the building
16 inspector's office.
17 The case was originally heard by six members
18 of the zoning board which are all right here on the
19 board before me. You have Paul Durfee, who I last
20 month messed it up a lot, Steve Gaddes, next to him
21 is Ed Rambone and Dean Costakos and Joe D'Amico.
22 Only five of the members will be actually
23 voting if we make any decisions tonight. The
24 zoning -- the other person will end up being the

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1 alternate. And when that becomes of value is if we

2 have a subsequent meeting and if somebody can't
3 make it, then we still maintain a quorum.
4 To my right is Peter Ruggiero who is the
5 town's legal counsel and further to my right is
6 Calista McDermott. We've -- I've also indicated
7 that we have the stenographer taking records for
8 this.
9 A couple of housekeeping issues that I do have
10 to cover here so please bear with me. At the last
11 meeting due to the volume of material that we have
12 been reviewing I asked for a motion of the Board to
13 allow me to identify and describe some of the
14 information or -- the information was kind of --
15 the voluminous information -- I omitted a couple of
16 pages or a couple of items that I need to make sure
17 we note that we -- as being in the record.
18 First item was the Scituate Planning Board
19 decision letter of March 21, 2017, which was an
20 approved master plan of this major plan development
21 project. Clarista, was that R? The next one was
22 --
23 MS. MCDERMOTT: No, the Planning Board
24 decision was W.

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1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: W, I'm sorry. The 300

2 foot abutters radius map that is -- then we have
3 the aerial view and the site development
4 perspectives, basically drawings of the buildings,
5 then the permitting submission charts and diagrams,
6 then there were phase 1, preliminary maps and phase
7 2 preliminary maps or plans rather, which basically
8 were the rough plans for the buildings in those two
9 phases.
10 Getting into the body of the meeting. This
11 week our legal counsel Attorney Ruggiero (SIC)
12 became aware that there is an issue with the legal
13 status of the Applicant's name. He advised the
14 Applicant's attorney -- perspective receiver that
15 we need to get that resolved.
16 Mr. Shekarchi, do you have any documentation
17 to show the actual name?
18 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 Good evening, members of the Board. For the record
20 again, Joseph Shekarchi representing the Applicant.
21 The receiver and the agent are all here tonight.
22 The expert team is here.
23 Yes, I have a copy of the certificate from the
24 secretary of state showing all of the entities in

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1 good standing and I am prepared to enter that as a

2 full exhibit. Mr. Chairman, I have about six or
3 seven copies all showing everyone in good standing
4 as of today.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you.
6 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That will be Exhibit
8 Number 4.
9 At this time, do you have any other updated
10 information to your application that you had
11 submitted last?
12 MR. SHEKARCHI: Not at this time, Mr.
13 Chairman. I would just like to -- on the overhead,
14 we do have the projection of the map. It's the
15 same map that we used at the last hearing. We have
16 identified -- this is not necessarily anything
17 different than you've seen before but if you look
18 on the right side, the after side, you will see
19 that there is approximately 115 more parking spots
20 that we have shown. These are spots under the
21 building that will easily be used for -- we plan on
22 using them for parking.
23 We didn't identify them at the last hearing.
24 They were there. We just identified them so I'd

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1 ask that that be identified. I have a map -- a

2 letter also showing the parking ratios for several
3 of the surrounding towns in the area as well. You
4 will see that while we are seeking relief under the
5 Scituate code that we meet or exceed all of the
6 other neighboring area parking of a project of this
7 size.
8 So I'd ask that this be introduced as the next
9 full exhibit, Plaintiff's Exhibit 5.
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. Can you give me
11 a total number of parking spaces that you now have?
12 MR. SHEKARCHI: Yes. It would be 342.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That still shows that
14 you need a variance of 44 parking spaces --
15 MR. SHEKARCHI: That is correct.
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: -- that our code does
17 require? And I'm sure you're aware as we indicated
18 last time, Scituate does not have, at the current
19 time anyway, any RIPTA or special bus
20 transportation to this. So that still remains a
21 concern that we will be....
22 MR. SHEKARCHI: I understand that and as
23 we discussed last time, the number of bedrooms --
24 some of these are one-bedroom units versus

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1 two-bedroom units and I concluded to support our

2 position if you look at page 2 a breakdown of all
3 the neighboring properties, the ratios. I can't
4 make a ratio. I can just tell you the relief we
5 are requesting is not out of line with any of the
6 surrounding neighborhoods and we think it clearly
7 supports the project of this size and scope.
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: For the benefit of
9 those who were not here at the last meeting, I am
10 going to try to summarize the scope of the project
11 so we can get you up to speed with where we are at.
12 Paramount Property received to buy the Hope
13 Mill Property out of receivership and to renovate
14 the property into 193 apartments. There are three
15 phases to the project. The main building and most
16 of the existing building offshoots from it will
17 become phase 1 of the project.
18 And that phase 1 project is -- has 12,
19 one-bedroom apartments and 46, two-bedroom
20 apartments.
21 Phase 2 will involve constructing two new
22 buildings of similar appearance to the other
23 buildings in the complex. Officially it will be a
24 68-foot high building, approximately 10 feet higher

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1 than the front building; however, due to the slope

2 of the land behind the building, if you look from
3 Main Street, it should be looking to be
4 approximately the same height as the front
5 building.
6 Phase 3 will be developing the sawtooth
7 building into 20, one-bedroom apartments and 55,
8 two-bedroom apartments.
9 The Applicant is seeking one special use
10 permit for the 193 apartments on the 32.2 acres and
11 there's also seven variances, two are zoning
12 ordinances that involve setbacks to parking spaces
13 and the building height.
14 The developers are planning 60 percent of the
15 complex apartments to be market-rate apartments and
16 40 percent, approximately 40 percent of the project
17 will be considered affordable housing.
18 The misconception for many people on this is
19 that it is not limited to low-income housing. It's
20 considered workforce-housing, not subsidized
21 housing. The qualifications for this are to
22 require that no more than 30 percent of the annual
23 income of the household earning 80 percent or less
24 of the area median income -- in Scituate that's

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1 just shy of $90,000 in the 2010 census.

2 So, in other words, the bottom line, it's
3 about somebody earning $70,000 or less would be
4 eligible for one of these apartments that is on the
5 affordable housing, that 40 percent.
6 During a public comment section, speakers
7 raised some concerns about crime, fire fighting
8 challenges, the school impact, increased traffic,
9 parking, flooding potentials and waste water
10 facilities that they would have, their septic
11 system, if you will.
12 Waste water permits have been issued by DEM.
13 Fire fighting challenges have been addressed by
14 Chief Robinson and prior to that in a letter to the
15 Planning Board from Chief John Chevalier from the
16 Hope Jackson Fire Department who addressed those
17 concerns.
18 The impact on police and crime is to be
19 addressed tonight. I've asked Chief Delaere to
20 present and I've also asked school Superintendent
21 Dr. Filippelli to present some information on the
22 school impact.
23 Also want to apologize for one thing. I do
24 not expect that we will be making a decision

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1 tonight and I want to explain why. This is going

2 to take probably I'm estimating about two hours of
3 deliberations between us going through each one of
4 these points and I don't want to drag you through
5 the whole -- you sitting here as we go through
6 this.
7 I want to hear what everybody is saying in the
8 audience, what your concerns are so we can make
9 sure we're addressing it and we have a chance to
10 include what you're saying compared to all of the
11 information that's included up here so we can make
12 an informed decision for you. Because we, like
13 you, are residence of the town and we want to
14 protect what we are investing in our town. So if
15 you're expecting an answer tonight, please be
16 patient because I don't think we will get there.
17 At this point, I would like to call Dr.
18 Filippelli to give an explanation of his thoughts
19 on the magnitude of the project and it's effect on
20 the schools. First, I need to swear you in.
21 (SWORN IN BY CHAIRMAN CHARLAND)
22 THE COURT REPORTER: Please state your
23 name and spell your last name for the record.
24 MR. FILIPPELLI: Lawrence Filippelli,

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1 F-I-L-I-P-P-E-L-L-I.
2 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
3 MR. FILIPPELLI: Okay. So the school
4 department contracts with the company called New
5 England School Development Council and have been
6 doing so for as long as I can remember and they
7 typically do analysis for us on student trends,
8 population, et cetera. So they're well equipped to
9 do an analysis of this sort.
10 So I was asked by Chair Charland to present
11 some information and to gather some information for
12 tonight on what exactly NESDC found in their
13 analysis and what kind of impact it could
14 potentially present to the school department. So I
15 am going to read some excerpts of the e-mail that
16 was sent to me by Dr. Don Kennedy from the New
17 England School Development Council. It reads,
18 "Although student yield can vary widely, the number
19 of bedrooms, especially, if few, have a major
20 influence upon the student yield. In New England,
21 the industry standard is often calculated a one
22 bedroom equals .01 students, two bedrooms equals
23 .11 students and three bedroom equals .35 students.
24 Figured at those rates, phase 1 could yield

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1 5.18 students multiplied by 1.6 affordable equals

2 8.3 students. So we would say that 8-10 students
3 would come out of phase 1.
4 Phase 2 could yield 4.5 students times 1.6
5 affordable will give you 7.4 students. So we would
6 say 7-10 students for phase 2.
7 And phase 3 could yield 5.5 students at market
8 rate, say 6-9 students in phase 3.
9 So will the entry into the Scituate Public
10 Schools of these Hope Mill students be noticeable?
11 There are many variables that factor into this but
12 Scituate sold an average of 111 homes per quote
13 unquote on the bubble in 1998-2005 for the eight
14 years prior to the real estate slowdown. Then it
15 sold only 65 homes in 2007 and 66 homes in 2008, 59
16 percent of the earlier pace.
17 It's now back to 111-117 homes sold in each
18 for the past four years with 2017 to June 30th also
19 looking like the past four years. There's been 47
20 closings through June 30, 2017.
21 In 2010, Scituate had .39 K-12 Scituate Public
22 School students per dwelling. So that's 1,618 K-12
23 students living in Scituate's 4,144 dwellings
24 versus the Rhode Island average of .36 K-12 public

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1 school students per dwelling. Thus the number of

2 Hope Mill residents are estimated to be small in
3 relation to the larger numbers of students welcomed
4 each year.
5 Assuming that the Hope Mill development goes
6 forward to the construction phase, actual student
7 yield will be influenced also by the marketing
8 strategy of the developers. If units are
9 heavily-marketed to millennials, the student yield
10 is likely to be on the lower side, whereas slightly
11 older established families may have more children
12 of school age.
13 The typical age distribution of children in
14 new school families are 70 percent elementary, 20
15 percent middle school, 10 percent high school age
16 for market-rate properties. And 60 percent
17 elementary, 20 percent middle school and 20 percent
18 high school age for affordable-rate properties.
19 Charts of number of school-age-children per
20 unit are interesting, yet must be taken with a
21 grain of salt as they vary greatly in their
22 outcomes, dependent upon the specific local
23 circumstances. The number of bedrooms per unit,
24 the specific neighborhood of the development and

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1 the marketing strategy of the developer are but

2 three of the key factors influencing the actual
3 student yield.
4 So the bottom-line breakdown on this is:
5 Phase 1 if you did 12, one bedroom units and 46,
6 two-bedroom units, on the low side of the estimated
7 student yield we would have eight students, on the
8 high side we will have 10.
9 Phase 2, if you had 20, one-bedroom units and
10 40, two bedroom units, the estimated student yield
11 on the low side would be 7, on the high side it
12 would be 10.
13 In phase 3, if you had 25, one-bedroom units
14 and 50, two-bedroom units, the estimated yield on
15 the low side would be 6, on the high side it would
16 be 9.
17 Therefore, with all three phases added
18 together, the NESDC is looking at a total student
19 impact of 29 over the three phases of the
20 construction, given the type of construction that's
21 going to be done and the marketing strategy, et
22 cetera.
23 So I can go further into typical age
24 distribution if you want me to go into that detail

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1 as well or if you're satisfied with the info as it

2 is?
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I think that the count
4 that you gave is what we were particularly looking
5 for.
6 MR. FILIPPELLI: Sure.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: The impact on the, I'm
8 going to say particularly the Hope School at this
9 point --
10 MR. FILIPPELLI: Sure.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: -- do you see the Hope
12 School being able to accommodate that size impact?
13 MR. FILIPPELLI: Without a question, yes.
14 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Do you see it
15 impacting --
16 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: There's two
17 kindergartens, two first grades, right now. Two
18 kindergartens and two first grades.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me.
20 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Sorry.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We -- at this point --
22 so you're saying, you're expecting that the school
23 should be able to handle those -- that increase?
24 MR. FILIPPELLI: The school and the

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1 district, yes.
2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. High school,
3 middle school, you're not seeing a problem with any
4 of those as well, correct?
5 MR. FILIPPELLI: No.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Anybody on the Board
7 have any other questions?
8 MR. GADDES: Let's say of the 29-30
9 students that would be -- of the projected 29-30
10 students at the completion of phase 3, is it a
11 correct assumption 70 percent of those will be
12 elementary?
13 MR. FILIPPELLI: Yes. Let me just go
14 through that breakdown for the record just so you
15 all have it.
16 So with a typical age distribution on regular
17 units -- I also have the breakdown for the
18 affordable rate as well. So elementary would be 70
19 percent on the low yield. We will get 15
20 elementary students. On the high yield, we would
21 get 20.
22 Middle school would typically be 20 percent.
23 The low yield will be 4 students and the high yield
24 will be 6.

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1 The high school, about 10 percent. The low

2 yield would be 2 and the high yield would will be
3 3.
4 If we went to the affordable-rate project rate
5 distribution, the low yield you would have 60
6 percent elementary with the affordable rate. The
7 low yield would be 13 and the high yield would be
8 17.
9 At 20 percent for the middle school for the
10 affordable rate, the low yield would be four, the
11 high yield would be six students.
12 And for the affordable rate at the high school
13 level, they estimate at 20 percent. The low yield
14 would be 4 students and the high yield would be 6.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Dr. Filippelli, when
16 you and I -- I asked you about doing the study, you
17 had indicated another factor would be the state aid
18 formula; could you explain a little bit about that?
19 MR. FILIPPELLI: Yes. It's somewhat
20 better to have a district that's flush with
21 students because for all of those students, there
22 is something called average daily membership that
23 the department of education calculates for state
24 aid.

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1 So when they take their snapshot of the

2 average daily membership, the higher the number,
3 the more state aid you get. So if we have more
4 numbers -- so I'll give you an example. If I have
5 a class size of lets say 15, my contractual maximum
6 is 25. So if I added 10 new students in the high
7 school, I'm still -- I'm not increasing any
8 sections. I'm not increasing any teachers. I'm
9 simply adding students into the sections that
10 already have 15 students in it. So I could easily
11 absorb, 5, 6, even up to 10 at the middle and high
12 school for contractual rates. So I'm paying the
13 teacher anyway to be there for 15 students. I can
14 absorb more and not have to hire a teacher and get
15 better state aid. So that's what happens.
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you, Mr.
17 Filippelli.
18 MR. FILIPPELLI: Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Another concern that
20 was raised was security at that last meeting. And
21 Chief Delaere is here. I'd ask him to come
22 forward.
24 CHIEF DELAERE: D-E-L-A-E-R-E.

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1 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

2 CHIEF DELAERE: I was asked by Chairman
3 Charland to present some data for the Hope Mill and
4 mill-style complexes in the towns of Coventry and
5 West Warwick for tonight's presentation.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you speak into the
7 microphone.
8 CHIEF DELAERE: Did everybody hear that?
9 Do you want me to say it again?
10 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We can't hear you.
11 CHIEF DELAERE: Okay. I was asked here
12 tonight by Mr. Charland to present data for the
13 Hope Mill and mill-style complexes in the towns of
14 Coventry and West Warwick. And also what the
15 impact would be on the police department.
16 I gathered data from the Royal Mill, which is
17 a 250 unit located at 125 Providence Street in West
18 Warwick. I gathered the calls for service they had
19 from January 1, 2016 to August 10, 2017. They had
20 45 calls to service at that facility.
21 Some of the high points of the calls were
22 seven vehicle repos, two hit and runs, two
23 larcenies from motor vehicles, which generated four
24 arrests from that facility, two for larceny and two

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1 for hit and run.

2 Also they took eight incident reports in that
3 time frame, over 20 months approximately. And they
4 took two accidents from people exiting from the
5 Hope -- the Royal Mill.
6 I also gathered data from the Harris Mill,
7 which is located at 618 Main Street in Coventry,
8 155 unit. Same time frame, January 1st of 2016 to
9 August 10th of '17. They had 39 calls to service
10 at that facility. They generated three arrests and
11 10 incident reports. Same style of calls for
12 service, larceny from autos and vandalism to cars.
13 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Excuse me, sir. Could
14 you speak a little slower.
15 CHIEF DELAERE: Sorry about that.
16 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Can you start again with
17 the Harris?
18 CHIEF DELAERE: Sure. Absolutely. The
19 Harris Mill is 155 unit facility and it's located
20 at 618 Main Street in Coventry. From January 1st
21 of '16 to August 10th of '17, they had 39 calls for
22 service at that facility, which generated three
23 arrests and 10 incident reports. The arrests were
24 for vandalism to cars and larceny to cars.

23
1 The next facility, which is also in the town

2 of Coventry is the Anthony Mill. That's a 122 unit
3 facility located at 624 Washington Street in
4 Coventry. Same time frame January 1, '16 to the
5 stop date of August 8th of '17. They had only 16
6 calls for service at that facility, which generated
7 two arrests and seven incident reports. Same style
8 of calls, larceny from autos, motor vehicle damage.
9 And the final one is ours, in our town, which
10 is the Hope Mill, in our town, which is unoccupied,
11 the Hope Mill, 1 Main Street, Hope, Rhode Island.
12 From January 1st of '16 to current, we've had 28
13 calls for service at that facility, which generated
14 one arrest and two incident reports. That arrest
15 was vandalism to the property at that location.
16 We have a lot people on that property
17 unlawfully trespassing, those were the two incident
18 reports.
19 The impact on the Scituate Police Department
20 just by residents alone, if you figure that's 1.9
21 people per unit at 193 units, it's approximately
22 367 people. The nation's average for police
23 officers are 2.2 police officers per thousand,
24 which will obviously add approximately one officer

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1 minimum with that facility going in.

2 The average cost for a police officer that
3 starting right now in the Scituate Police
4 Department is around 49,000. You have to also
5 incur or add in the health care, if they get family
6 medical it's around 21,000, that's the group rate
7 right now for Blue Cross Blue Shield. Also the
8 pension contributions that the town would
9 contribute is now 49,000, correction, 4,900.
10 The total cost of just one police officer
11 added due to the population is a minimal, 74,900,
12 that's current numbers.
13 Besides -- some of the requests that I thought
14 about was having a community policing office if
15 this facility went ahead, to have accesses for the
16 officers to have access inside there.
17 Also, I think an updated traffic should be
18 done for that area.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any questions from the
20 Board?
21 MR. DURFEE: Do you know what the mix is
22 in those particular units? Is it similar to this
23 as far as affording housing, low income or...
24 CHIEF DELAERE: It's more -- most of them

25
1 are on the higher end of moderate/high, you know,

2 income areas. One is loft-style home. Pretty
3 nice, actually. And, um, that's what they are over
4 there.
5 MR. DURFEE: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Questions of the
7 Broad?
8 MR. GADDES: I have a question. Chief, in
9 your opinion, what would be the reason for such
10 difference between say the Anthony Complex with
11 only 16 calls versus the Harris Complex with almost
12 40 calls yet they have almost the same number of
13 occupants?
14 CHIEF DELAERE: I have no idea. I spoke
15 with the chiefs in both respective towns. Chief
16 Magiera in West Warwick and Chief John MacDonald in
17 Coventry with regards to that and they didn't give
18 me any insight why that would be.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you, Chief.
20 CHIEF DELAERE: Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We appreciate that.
22 One of the things that I also need to -- as part of
23 the housekeeping aspect -- I did receive a letter
24 from a resident that is rather extensive, expressed

26
1 many concerns that have already been raised at

2 prior hearings as well. We are entering that into
3 the minutes as well for this. This was a letter
4 from Russell Heaton and Pamela Kobrocq.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you just spell
6 the last names.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Pamela Kobrocq,
8 K-O-B-R-O-C-Q and Russell Heaton, H-E-A-T-O-N.
9 Exhibit X.
10 At this point, I'd like to call on Town
11 Council President John Mahoney.
13 MR. MAHONEY: For the stenographer it's
14 Mahoney. That's M-A-H-O-N-E-Y. The first name is
15 John and that would be common spelling.
16 Mr. Chairman, as you called me to the
17 microphone as the Town Council President while that
18 be true, the information I put on record this
19 evening my concerns will be in my individual
20 capacity and as a resident of Hope. My address is
21 10 Mahoney Drive.
22 Mr. Chairman, I have been tracking this
23 development for quite sometime now and have been
24 putting my concerns on record along the way. My

27
1 concerns are as follows: The first one would be

2 the density, the overwhelming amount of units in
3 such a small area.
4 The second will be the buildings, the two
5 additional new constructions, the structure, the
6 height of them.
7 Additionally, the parking although it was
8 revised this evening, my concerns are the parking
9 during holidays and weekends. Calls for service,
10 police, fire and rescue, when they struggle to get
11 into that development to execute their
12 responsibilities for calls for service.
13 And I am a going to go through this relatively
14 quick and be brief so we can get on to the
15 community. My biggest concern and the one I have
16 been most with the planning commission is the
17 septic system. I am struggling with this. The
18 town has invested several hundred thousand dollars
19 over the past several years, a few decades
20 actually, upwards of a million dollars -- we're
21 currently paying on two bonds for reservation fees
22 to one day tie into the Clyde Interceptor. And as
23 you're aware, we have a reservation for those fees
24 of 78 thousand gallons per day.

28
1 I believe a project of this magnitude, that's

2 this size, close to 40 thousand gallons a day, 38.4
3 to be exact at maximum capacity into the ground
4 that has no contamination in it, that's a concern
5 for me. Although, the Department of Environmental
6 Management has approved that septic system, Mr.
7 Chairman and Members of the Committee, it's of my
8 opinion that this zone, this Zoning Board of Review
9 has a responsibility to this community to
10 deliberate and to make decisions for what's in the
11 best interest for this community and not use that
12 approval from DEM as -- respectfully when I say
13 this, a blanket of cover.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 MR. MAHONEY: Just another minute or two
16 Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. I
17 wanted to be clear on my position. I do support
18 development at this location but in moderation. It
19 must be responsible. We cannot approve a
20 development with the amount of the dimensional
21 relief that is being sort this evening. My concern
22 is that that will have a negative impact on our
23 community.
24 Once this development has reached its final

29
1 stage and certificate of occupancies are handed

2 out, we own this in perpetude. So with all of that
3 said, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Zoning Board, I
4 ask you respectfully and humbly take my concerns
5 and the concerns I'm sure that you will be hearing
6 from the folks this evening into consideration as
7 you deliberate over this application.
8 With that said, I yield back and thank you for
9 this opportunity.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you. Any
12 members of the board have any questions at this
13 time?
14 I will open this meeting up at this point for
15 members of the community to come forward and stand
16 by the microphone. We look forward to hearing your
17 input.
18 State your name for the record, please.
19 MS. MYERS: My name is Jennifer Myers. I
20 live at 12 Mill Street. I've been on that street
21 for 20 years and we've worked extremely, extremely
22 hard to make this neighborhood the kind of
23 neighborhood --
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Hold on one minute.

30

2 MS. MYERS: We worked very hard to make
3 this a neighborhood -- we watch out for our kids.
4 And I'm sorry, I strongly disagree with Principal
5 Filippelli about how many kids are going to come
6 into this place. On Mill Street alone, in the
7 units that are on Mill Street, there's an average
8 of two to three kids per household except for a
9 very few households.
10 And if you're telling me that you have so many
11 -- 54 units in that first phase that are going to
12 be of 2 bedroom and some -- 40 percent of that is
13 going to be low income, those parents who need a
14 place of low income are going to be sticking as
15 many of their kids as they can into rooms with bunk
16 beds. I know, I did it myself.
17 I have three children that I raised on that
18 street from kindergarten to graduation and I cannot
19 believe that anybody would think that putting a
20 five-story building behind that Mill -- that Mill
21 is a historical site. It's part of the history of
22 this town. It is part of the history of Hope. We
23 already lost the Hope Furnace Mill, which made the
24 cannons for the Revolutionary War.

31
1 I am proud of my town, my village. That is

2 not going to be the Hope Village Mill. Hope
3 village is established. The people in this town or
4 this village are established.
5 And you're not going to be adding six students
6 or eight students to the high school. You're going
7 to be adding, 20, 50, 100.
8 And the parking spaces are not adequate. And
9 where are they going to park? On Mill Street where
10 there is no parking. If you have people parking on
11 both sides of that street, an emergency vehicle
12 cannot come down unless they are parking on the
13 sidewalk and that's what the residence do is have
14 people who come over, park on the sidewalks so that
15 an emergency vehicle can go down that road.
16 You know, we can't even build the
17 infrastructure in front of the police and fire
18 station with those roads so bad. I've gone through
19 six sets of struts in the last five years because
20 of that area.
21 I mean, putting all of those people in and
22 putting two five-story buildings on a historical
23 site is a disgrace to the history of this town.
24 And yes --

32
1 (APPLAUSE)
2 MS. MYERS: -- I'm angry about it. For
3 all you know, you're going to be putting two
4 five-story buildings on the same ground that George
5 Washington and his troops walked on during the
6 Revolutionary War. And that's -- Scituate's
7 history is so vibrant and so meaningful. It is
8 taught in schools, Hope's history and the town of
9 Scituate's history. We are proud of the founding
10 father's that have come to this town and taking
11 away another historical site to make a buck is
12 ridiculous. What we --
13 (APPLAUSE)
14 MS. MYERS: What we need is, if you want
15 to build something there, make it for elderly
16 people and for people who are disabled.
17 Do not bring the crime that is going to come
18 with the teenagers and the younger pre-teens. And
19 don't tell me it doesn't happen. I live on that
20 street. I made a report to the police station not
21 two months ago that somebody tried to break into my
22 house and I didn't hear that incident come from the
23 police. Somebody tried to break into my house
24 because I live directly behind the woods but we

33
1 have security now, so we're not worried about that

2 any more.
3 We've had enough vandalism from kids coming
4 from Coventry over the line, coming into our
5 neighborhood. When we do the Hope Festival, on
6 fourth of July, the third of July, those people
7 will park on that street until it's not moveable.
8 It's getting that way now. And they put up
9 barriers at the top of the streets and whatnot and
10 people get out of their cars move the barriers,
11 drive their cars in and park all over the place.
12 Our schools can't support this. I don't care
13 what the police department Chief says. The police
14 cannot handle -- if all these people bring in
15 pre-teens and teens, we will not be able to handle
16 drug activity, which is rampant in this town to
17 begin with. The pot use in this town is
18 unbelievable, having raised three teenagers.
19 So you have drugs, you have people -- I'm not
20 saying all people of low income -- I'm one of them.
21 I'm on a fixed income. Both my husband and I got
22 disabled to work (SIC). We don't want to be this
23 way. And we have wonderful landlords. But what we
24 need is to keep Hope a village, not make the Mill

34
1 Complex a village. Hope is a village of neighbors

2 and we are talking about neighbors from the 1970s.
3 People that you can walk across the street to the
4 people next door and say can I borrow an egg or can
5 I borrow a cup of milk or could you help me out for
6 a day because I need gas money. This is a
7 neighbor.
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I appreciate that you
9 --
10 MS. MEYERS: And the 2010 flood, I was on
11 the opposite of Mill Street that I am living on now
12 and our cellar filed up with water. And the septic
13 system that handles Mill Street could not take
14 that. There are nights that I can't even sit on my
15 back porch because of the septic system just for
16 Mill Street and now you want to put one in for 193
17 units.
18 (APPLAUSE)
19 MS. MYERS: The septic system was overrun
20 by the floods of 2010. My basement got filled up
21 and I was on the opposite side, the higher level.
22 I know people that lived down the street whose
23 basements were literally flooded up to their first
24 floor and lost everything in their basement. We

35
1 lost things that were in our basement.

2 And it took my husband, through the Zoning
3 Board, a run around just to build a shed in our
4 backyard --
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 MS. MYERS: -- and I'm not kidding.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 MS. MYERS: He had to submit a blueprint
9 for a shed that he built out of --
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Ma'am, that is not
11 affect -- is not related to the Hope Mill, I'm
12 sorry.
13 MS. MYERS: It does affect the Hope Mill
14 property because if you put another septic system
15 in there and we get a hurricane come trough and we
16 get another 10 inches of water or even just one
17 week of steady rain that ends up being 10 inches of
18 water, half of that newfangled place you want to
19 build is going to be flooded. The septic system
20 will not be able to handle -- and you're putting it
21 right next to the Pawtuxet River. I mean, it's the
22 Pawtuxet River. At least we're on the other side
23 of the trench of Mill Street.
24 But I mean, you're talking about a lot of

36
1 children that are going to be coming in. I know

2 it, it isn't going to be eight. It's not going to
3 be six. It's not going to be 20. If you have a
4 two bedroom, you're going to have a minimum of one
5 to two children in most of those.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. You have said
7 that and I know you're emotionally into this and
8 most everybody is -- please understand, we're
9 residence here. We don't necessarily support
10 everything that is going on with this project. We
11 are hearing everything out.
12 MS. MYERS: Are you a resident of Hope?
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'm a resident over
14 near the highway garage. That's where I am.
15 MS. MYERS: Okay. I'm a resident of Hope.
16 It effects the Hope village citizens the most.
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 MS. MYERS: The traffic, to the library,
19 to the school system in Hope. I mean, you keep
20 adding classes, another kindergarten, another first
21 grade as the population increases. I mean, how
22 many houses are being built in the town of Scituate
23 right now? I bet nowhere else in this town would
24 they allow 193 units to be put up in their

37
1 neighborhood.
2 (APPLAUSE)
3 MS. MYERS: Do not do it to the people
4 that live closest to this Mill. Hope Furnace Road,
5 Mill Street, Main Street, Jackson Flat Road, Main
6 Street and Hope Avenue, these are the people that
7 are going to be the most affected, not the people
8 that live on their farms in Scituate, not the
9 higher income people, no --
10 I understand that Hope has been considered the
11 armpit of Scituate --
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 MS. MYERS: -- for a long time. And I
14 know the people that live here and I am going to
15 fight to my dying breath to make sure this doesn't
16 go through.
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 MS. MYERS: The people of Hope don't
19 deserve it.
20 (APPLAUSE)
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, ma'am.
22 MS. KELLY: My name is Karen Kelly and on
23 behalf of the citizens in the town of Scituate, I
24 would like to go on record that we have over 450

38
1 signatures to deny all of these variances and I'd

2 like to submit them.
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MS. KELLY: We do realize that this has no
5 legal ramification....
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Karen, before you go
7 any further, I need to swear you in.
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your address, would
10 you give that, please.
11 MS. KELLY: 36 Ben Brown Avenue, Hope.
12 Before I go any further, I know Paramount had a lot
13 of experts at the last meeting. I move that all
14 the residents of Hope be certified as residents,
15 experts as to the way life is --
16 (APPLAUSE)
17 MS. KELLY: -- in Hope and the surrounding
18 areas. We know more about life here better than
19 any research group, any outside paid expert or any
20 computer model ever could. For instance, the
21 Paramount Group experts tried to get us to believe
22 that the flood a few years ago did not reach the
23 Mill. We know better. We live here. We saw it
24 and we have pictures of it.

39
1 (APPLAUSE)
2 MS. MYERS: As have many people, my
3 husband and I have worked hard to pay for our home
4 and other land that we own in Hope, always
5 believing that our sacrifices would be worth it and
6 we could lean on the value an equity of them in our
7 quickly approaching golden years. It is
8 heartbreaking and down right scary to think that it
9 could all have been for naught.
10 If this project goes through, our property
11 values will drop, our quiet peaceful town will be
12 gone and we will be left with a home we can't sell
13 and nothing left to fall back on. If this project
14 -- excuse me, I'm sorry.
15 We should be asking what the purpose of
16 ordinances is and why were they instituted. To
17 maintain the current atmosphere and lifestyle of a
18 town? To protect the town and keep it safe? Those
19 seem like reasonable reasons to me.
20 The granting of these variances will set a
21 very bad precedent, as it would make it more
22 difficult to refuse similar variances when someone
23 wants to overdevelop an area.
24 (APPLAUSE)

40
1 MS. MYERS: We live in a democracy and not

2 only do we have the right to have our opinion
3 heard, but we also have the right to have the
4 various councils and boards listen to what we are
5 saying, we, the citizens and voters, that's who
6 must count. Our opinion should matter much more
7 than the amount of money PDG has already invested,
8 as they must have realized that that was a risk
9 they took when they proposed a project that
10 required seven variances and one special use
11 permit.
12 The town does not want the mill property and
13 it seems like they are willing to get it off their
14 hands at any cost.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 MS. MYERS: Mr. Charland, you started the
17 last -- the other meeting as follows and I quote,
18 The plan for the Hope Mill will have a dramatic
19 impact on the future of Hope, end quote. I have
20 thought about this a lot over the past weeks and I
21 have come to the conclusion that you're absolutely
22 right. Some of the many ways this project will
23 impact the future of Hope include:
24 Increased traffic, increased population

41
1 destiny, density, increased demand on police, fire

2 and rescue resources, increased litter, debris and
3 other pollutants, increased number of students in
4 our schools, increased noise and light pollution,
5 increased pet waste on the sidewalks because they
6 will have pets and will have no place to take them,
7 decreased property values, increased tax rates and
8 further deterioration of our roads, if that's even
9 possible.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 MS. MYERS: Is there any further impact
12 that you would like to make us aware of that maybe
13 we're not -- and don't mention new jobs, because
14 those are only temporary and I bet none of them are
15 Scituate residents. Don't mention revenue, because
16 it's going to be a long time before we see any
17 money from that.
18 (APPLAUSE)
19 MS. MYERS: Do you have anything further
20 you can add to our impact this will have?
21 (NO RESPONSE)
22 (APPLAUSE)
23 MS. MYERS: Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We are not going to

42
1 respond to any of your comments. Tonight's

2 objective is to listen to everything that you're
3 saying and to take it into consideration because we
4 are being challenged with a big responsibility. I
5 don't -- I in no way, shape or form do I want to
6 question the merits of what you, as the residents
7 are bringing forward in your questions. You have
8 very valid concerns. It's your community as well
9 as it is my town. I feel very strongly about
10 preserving the values in our town.
11 (APPLAUSE)
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: So please understand
13 that. Yes, Ma'am. What is your name?
14 MS. GRADY: Hi. My name is Lauren Grady.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Did you say Brady?
16 MS. GRADY: Grady with a G. I wish it was
17 Brady.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your address, please?
19 MS. GRADY: Can I start or do I need to --
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Address, please?
21 MS. GRADY: Okay. I'm sorry. 17
22 Cranberry Drive.
24 MS. GRADY: My name is Lauren Grady. I

43
1 live on Cranberry Drive in Hope. My question is

2 how many, excuse me -- my question is how many of
3 the developers from PDG have actually stepped foot
4 in the elementary school and it's actual impact on
5 a tiny school with already increasing numbers?
6 I currently have a daughter who is in Hope
7 Elementary, she's in the first grade and two
8 children at home who will be attending Hope maybe.
9 We moved to Hope two years ago for the
10 schools. Scituate currently has a reputation for
11 its good schools. We used to live in Coventry.
12 You max out Hope Elementary and that's what will
13 happen if this development goes through. These
14 numbers include families who do not send their
15 children to Hope Elementary.
16 There are currently two kindergartens and two
17 first grades in the school. Are they going to buss
18 my children to North Scituate because of this? The
19 number of children in Hope is currently only going
20 up. Two kindergartens and two first grades
21 already. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the
22 first time that they've ever had to make two
23 classes due to numbers.
24 Please don't make this village an area that I

44
1 would not be proud to be a part of. I will not be

2 proud to send my children to school. All this
3 affordable housing in one place is not what we want
4 in our backyard. Please take this into
5 consideration as the demographics will further
6 change. Thank you for your time.
7 (APPLAUSE)
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Will you state your
10 name for the record.
11 MR. DASILVA: My name is Joseph DaSilva.
12 I own property at 7 and 5 Mill Street. I am also
13 the HVSA president, which is our septic system.
14 And I heard it mentioned and I don't like it when
15 people speak ill of it. So I come here not only as
16 an owner/resident, which I no longer live in
17 Scituate -- and I do live in a 90 unit condo
18 complex and I can speak to the children's
19 population for that matter, if I'm allowed to.
20 First of all, as president of HVSA, as an
21 owner of the property down there, I welcome this
22 development. After 25 years living down there and
23 seeing that mill was an eyesore and the danger of a
24 fire and the danger of a fire contaminating the

45
1 entire river and creating a mess down there. It is

2 very, very scary. And I think it would be best for
3 the residents of Hope that I no longer live there
4 -- I think would be a wonderful thing for them.
5 Maybe some day I will move back to Hope. I
6 don't know what's in my further. It's a strong
7 possibility. I would rather move to Hope with the
8 Mill down there than the mess that's there right
9 now. I just want to make that very clear.
10 On the second point, as far as the septic
11 system, our septic system was in trouble because
12 there was no association running it. We have taken
13 over that over five years ago. I have been working
14 on it. And I just want to say, that that septic is
15 functioning properly, okay, and we do not have a
16 problem.
17 The only problem we have is getting people to
18 pay, okay. So if we can just get people to pay,
19 okay, it would be great. Okay. I would like to be
20 the only person not pay -- not being the only
21 person paying.
22 (AUDIENCE DISRUPTION)
23 MR. DASILVA: Really. It would be great.
24 But that's not what we are here to discuss. But I

46
1 did hear the association being mentioned and I'm

2 here to defend that system, okay. That has nothing
3 to do with the other system. I want to make sure
4 everybody understood that. Thank you very much for
5 your time.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you, sir. And
7 your name, sir.
8 MR. MACEDO: Michael Macedo.
9 Chairman CHARLAND: How do you spell your
10 last name?
11 MR. MACEDO: That's M-A-C-E-D-O.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. What is your
14 address.
15 MR. MACEDO: 119 Howard Ave, Hope.
17 MR. MACEDO: First of all I just want to
18 say that if population increases, one of the
19 driving motivators for this project, I think it's
20 important to think about families moving in
21 long-term, non-renters. I will start off by saying
22 I'm obviously a younger demographic, late 20s. I'm
23 -- my generation is often credited or accused of
24 destroying -- really faceless corporate entities

47
1 like Applebee's and everything like that, which

2 really -- I'm part of the generation that tends to
3 value more vintage things, more mom and pop shops,
4 more quaint, quiet areas and villages, which is
5 exactly why I pride myself in living in a town like
6 Hope and which is also why I can't tell you how
7 many people I know in my age group want to live and
8 settle down in a quiet and quaint place like Hope
9 or anywhere in Scituate in general.
10 I can say that if this project goes through,
11 then Hope will just be another, you know,
12 soulless-corporate, just urban sprawl and that
13 will --
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 MR. MACEDO: -- turn people away. I
16 didn't move to Hope two years ago to live in just a
17 suburb where I can't be in a quiet area with trees.
18 I don't want that. I mean, I do want that. I
19 don't want to live in the suburbs. And to think
20 that this village, which has very narrow roads,
21 very narrow sidewalks, I know, I run on them all of
22 the time -- if we have this many people, it will
23 just be -- it will be a mess. And don't we have
24 enough areas like this in the state where there are

48
1 far too many people and you can barely move.

2 Again, I moved to this town to get away from
3 it all. I work in the city. I have gone to
4 college in the city. I'm originally from Glocester
5 but -- I want to keep it that way. I want to live
6 in a quiet and quaint area and a lot of people in
7 my generation do and would want to move to towns
8 like Hope. And honestly, if it becomes another
9 urban sprawl, then I can speak on behalf of a lot
10 of people in my generation, I'll move.
11 You know, I was thinking --
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 MR. MACEDO: -- I mean, this is possibly
14 your future of people in their late 20s eventually
15 settling down, raising families, wanting to live in
16 towns like Scituate and Hope. They're not going to
17 want to do that. This will be just another, you
18 know, eastern Coventry. And honestly, if -- I'm
19 thinking of some day raising a family in Hope but
20 if this project goes through, then I'm not going to
21 do that.
22 And honestly --
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Mike, do you have
24 anything other than -- you've repeated yourself a

49
1 few time here. I just want to -- we have other

2 people waiting.
3 MR. MACEDO: I'd just like to say that
4 whatever this company is that wants to build this
5 thing, we're the residencts. We decide and that's
6 it.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: State your name for
9 the record, sir, please.
10 MR. HERON: My name is Bob Heron,
11 H-E-R-O-N.
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: And your address,
13 please.
14 MR. HERON: 797 Hope Furnace Road.
17 MR. HERON: I'd like to say that I've
18 lived on the western end of Hope Furnace Road --
19 I've been there for 27 years. When I first came
20 out here, there was very, very little traffic on
21 Hope Furnace Road on the western end. Since I've
22 been here, they've built considerably, mostly to
23 the east of me, not to the west. The traffic has
24 increased tremendously. I don't know why all of

50
1 the traffic is east of me.

2 I've also moved out here because I wanted to
3 be alone, not so crowded. We have a 3 acre zoning
4 here. These guys are short over 500 acres.
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 MS. DENYSE: Hi. I'm Joan DeNyse.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Speak into the
8 microphone please.
9 MS. DENYSE: I'm Joan DeNyse. I come from
10 the north end of Scituate. I don't have --
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: What is your street
13 address, please.
14 MS. DENYSE: 147 Peck Hill Road.
16 MS. DENYSE: I was here at the last
17 meeting and I listened to the lack of parking
18 spaces. There were only going to get, I believe,
19 121 at the time. And now they've come up with over
20 300.
21 When I think of that many cars going out onto
22 the road -- I can remember one of the experts on
23 traffic when he was asked how much of an impact is
24 it going to make on North Road. He said, "Well, it

51
1 depends on which way you're turning when you come

2 out of the driveway." That was an expert opinion.
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MS. DENYSE: I just feel that with over
5 300 cars parking there, if, in fact, it ends up
6 being that many, that's going to be a terrible
7 impact on that whole area.
8 The other thing is, someone brought up the
9 fact of taxes. There will be a long time before we
10 see any income from it. We are going to have to
11 supply a lot of services to this development. The
12 Chief said it cost 75 thousand dollars for a police
13 officer. That's entry level. Seventy-five
14 thousand dollars a year. How many years is it
15 going to be before we see dollar one in taxes from
16 this development?
17 They've been given what, a five hundred
18 thousand dollar tax break.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That is -- that's a
20 challenge right now that we are not --
21 MS. DENYSE: It's a big challenge.
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: No. Excuse me.
23 According to the tax assessor's office, according
24 to the tax collector, there has been no formal

52
1 agreement signed on taxes, for past taxes nor for

2 future taxes.
3 This is something that the current Town
4 Council will have to deal with but that is not our
5 issue to deal with. We don't have any authority to
6 deal with that. So --
7 MS. DENYSE: Who does?
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Well, no -- the zoning
9 -- that would be the Town Council that has to deal
10 with that. That would not be the zoning part.
11 We're dealing with the property issues.
12 MS. DENYSE: Okay. We'll skip over that
13 because you don't have the authority for that.
14 What about the education? They've given these
15 minimal numbers going to the schools. So you've
16 got a class of 15 students, you've got one teacher,
17 that teacher makes a given salary. So we can get
18 another 10 students in there and that teacher can
19 handle it.
20 Tell me, would you want your child in a class
21 of 15 children or 25 children? Where do you feel
22 the --
23 (APPLAUSE)
24 MS. DENYSE: Where do you feel the quality

53
1 of education is: In a 15 student class or the 25

2 student class? I think I would like to see my
3 child in a 15 student class because they will be
4 able to progress better. But that's only my
5 opinion and I don't have any young children any
6 more, thank God.
7 (AUDIENCE INTERRUPTION)
8 MS. DENYSE: You know, it's just -- when I
9 look at all of the things that have been brought up
10 and just brushed aside, you know, I just don't
11 understand why there are six, over seven variances
12 to be made.
13 I think I said this before, you didn't want
14 repetition but the fact is, why do we have zoning?
15 Why do we even bother having zoning laws --
16 (APPLAUSE)
17 MS. DENYSE: -- if we are going to
18 continue to grant these ridiculous variances, the
19 size of the building, the height of the building,
20 the amount of people per square foot, I mean, why
21 do we even have zoning? I just don't understand
22 it. It's just not feasible to me to give this many
23 variances to one corporation so that they can make
24 a dollar and the town that is going to have to foot

54
1 the bill in the end for the extra police, the extra
2 fire and protection and possibly extra teachers --
3 we're going to be footing that bill; nobody else
4 is.
5 And I don't care whether it's Hope or the
6 entirety of Scituate -- Scituate is going to have
7 to foot the bill for all of these amenities that we
8 are giving to this corporation and his bottom line
9 is going to be filling his pocket not ours.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I thank you. I
12 appreciate all that you are saying. You also
13 presented this, if I remember correctly, this last
14 month, the beginning of the month.
15 MS. DENYSE: Yes.
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'm going to ask that
17 you pass the microphone to the next person.
18 MS. DENYSE: Thank you. I didn't touch on
19 the taxes and the school; that I didn't do.
20 (APPLAUSE)
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, sir. Your name,
22 please.
23 MR. TESSITORE: My name is John Tessitore.
24 It's spelled, T as in Tom, E-S-S-I-T-O-R-E at 6

55
1 White Birch Circle, three separate words, Hope.

2 And yes --
3 (SWORN BY CHAIRMAN CHARLAND)
4 MR. TESSITORE: I'm not here to either
5 defend or attack this project.
8 microphone.
9 MR. TESSITORE: I said, I'm not here to
10 either defend or attack this project. We've heard
11 a lot of passion this evening and I will truly try
12 to speak dispassionately.
13 What I'm curious to know is how much serious
14 attention is given to the concept of compromise in
15 such a project?
16 We all know that development is inevitable
17 it's going to happen here and everywhere else. I
18 smiled when the young man before me talked about
19 having come from an urban environment. Well, I
20 lived in New York City for 20 years. I know a
21 little bit about density. I know a little bit
22 about traffic, et cetera. I now live in Hope and
23 like him, although I am much older, I came for the
24 tranquility of it, having left the big city.

56
1 But I still know that development must

2 continue. The question is: Is it going to
3 continue in a responsible way?
4 There's nothing wrong with the word profit.
5 Everybody needs to make a profit or we come to a
6 standstill. But there is a difference between
7 profit and greed.
8 (APPLAUSE)
9 MR. TESSITORE: I'm afraid I don't have
10 the highest regard for developers. I realize they
11 have their place in society but I've seen far too
12 often that their profit motive is really more one
13 of ultimate greed. Surely there is a way to go
14 forward with this project, that allows them to make
15 a sensible profit and allows our town and our
16 village of Hope to continue in a somewhat similar
17 manner.
18 And I'm only hoping all of you intelligent
19 folks up on that panel have given some thought of
20 not a yea or nay but some kind of sensible scaling
21 back such that it becomes a tangible project for
22 the environment in which we live. Thank you.
23 (APPLAUSE)
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your name, sir,

57
1 please.
2 MR. LAVALLE: Good evening. It's Paul
3 Lavalle. I live at 19 Spruce Drive in Hope.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your
6 last name, sir.
7 MR. LAVALLE: L-A-V-A-L-L-E. It seems to
8 me that a need for a variance to pass for nearly
9 every aspect of this proposed project -- if you
10 need a variance passed for nearly every aspect of
11 this proposed project, it is not a good fit for the
12 area.
13 In addition to this concern, the area of
14 discussion is in a flood zone, which, in this day
15 and age, poses additional consideration, which
16 needs to be studied with the real threat of climate
17 change upon us.
18 We must be diligent with looking into
19 understanding what the possibility is with placing
20 residential property in high risk areas. The cost
21 to the state and federal government to rebuild,
22 replace and repair devastated areas is only
23 increasing, which puts an additional burden on all
24 of us.

58
1 Even minor flooding in this area could result

2 in major environmental impacts due to the septic
3 system so close to the river along with the parking
4 lot drainage collection system. If anything, with
5 the flood in that area -- is there any
6 consideration to that concern, with the drainage
7 system and the septic system so close to the river?
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That is part of their
9 studies that we will be evaluating as we go.
10 MR. LAVALLE: And I would like to submit
11 this memorandum from 2007 about tying into the
12 Clyde septic system that the town has a copy of
13 this and I would like to submit for your review.
14 Thank you for your time.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: What Mr. Lavalle just
17 presented was a Memorandum of Understanding of the
18 Hope Mill Village Associates, LLC relating to the
19 Gorham & Gorham Law Office, where they were
20 authorizing the developers the use of 40,000
21 gallons per day of the Scituate reserve capacity in
22 the West Warwick sewer system.
23 Yes, sir?
24 MR. AMARAL: Good evening.

59
1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your, name, please.

2 MR. AMARAL: Scott Amaral, 55 Rolling
3 Green Drive.
5 MR. AMARAL: I'd just also like to note
6 that I'm not here in my official capacity as the
7 Town Council. I'm here on a personal level, as a
8 resident of the town of Scituate.
9 Three things I'd like to bring up. One of
10 them, I would like to note that the lady that was
11 up here a little while ago, the prior council did
12 waive 533 thousand dollars in back taxes. That's
13 an agreement that was signed by the former Town
14 Council President Chuck Collins, waiving those back
15 taxes of 533 thousand dollars. Yes, 533 thousand
16 dollars over a 10 year period. So back taxes have
17 been waived.
18 So I just want -- people are confused about
19 that and that's signed by Chuck Collins and was
20 sent to Paramount. So we have copies of those
21 letters. I have that -- I can e-mail them to you,
22 if you need them but...
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: It's -- quite
24 honestly, it's not typically relevant to this

60
1 Zoning Board but there's, as I say, there's been a

2 disparity because I was told it was not ratified.
3 Chuck had signed it but it has not --
4 MR. AMARAL: Well, that's what I wanted to
5 make clear. I have letters here from Chuck, David
6 D'Agostino Jr. and David D'Agostino, Sr. I just
7 wanted to clear that up for people --
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I appreciate knowing
9 that. I've been trying to find that out.
10 MR. AMARAL: Secondly, I believe you asked
11 the Chief of Police for numbers for West Warwick
12 and Coventry housing. I will speak about Royal
13 Mills because I know that personally.
14 The numbers he has may be correct. One thing
15 they didn't take into account for is -- you asked
16 for calls for service at 319 Providence Street,
17 which are the Royal Mills. Granted those numbers
18 are a certain number but you're not taking into
19 account the residents that leave that place and get
20 into accidents in other places in town.
21 A building this size, with those amount of
22 residents, it's going to create a traffic problem,
23 issues at the school. The police department's
24 calls for service are going to skyrocket. I

61
1 understand that he gave you correct numbers for

2 West Warwick and from Coventry, but those are
3 numbers for that building alone. That's not
4 accidents, larcenies around town, problems at
5 stores, keeping the peace, you know, that stuff.
6 The numbers are a little off.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 MR. AMARAL: When 319 Providence Street
9 went in -- I'm not sure if you are all aware, I'm a
10 retired West Warwick Police Officer. When 319
11 Providence Street went in, we had suicides in
12 there. We had drug problems. A place of that
13 magnitude is going to bring in elements that you
14 don't want here in this town.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 MR. AMARAL: I'm not totally opposed to a
17 scaled back version of developing this property.
18 It needs to be developed. The two back towers I'm
19 opposed to personally.
20 And like I said, I moved to this town to be in
21 a quiet -- to live in a nice quiet town and this
22 scale of magnitude of a building is going to bring
23 a lot more problems and it's not going to be only
24 at that building; it's going to be all over town.

62
1 My third point, Mr. Charland, have you run the

2 numbers for fire calls for service at those
3 buildings, in West Warwick and Coventry?
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I have not, no. That
5 was --
6 MR. AMARAL: I'm sure that's astronomical,
7 too. I worked a detail in front of 319 Providence
8 last week, last Wednesday and there were two calls
9 for service, just rescue calls for service out of
10 that building. So I'm sure that the calls for --
11 it's going to put a strain on the fire department.
12 I don't know if that's been discussed yet.
13 You know, we just put our third shift rescue
14 on. We have volunteers. It's going to put a huge
15 strain on our fire department. So that needs to be
16 looked at too before you approve the back two
17 towers and the amount of residents that you're
18 going to bring in there.
19 So I just wanted you guys to think about that
20 before you make your decision. You know, you
21 probably should have those fire numbers, calls for
22 service. I'm sure it's a lot higher than the
23 police department. Thank you.
24 (APPLAUSE)

63
1 MR. MURRAY: Jake Murray.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your address, please.
3 MR. MURRAY: Jackson Flat, Hope.
5 MR. MURRAY: Gentlemen, you guys are
6 tasked with a very difficult decision here so thank
7 you guys for hearing us tonight, first of all; we
8 appreciate that.
10 MR. MURRAY: I'm not going to say anything
11 you haven't heard from anyone else tonight. I just
12 wanted to give you my perspective. I grew up in
13 this town. I went to high school here. I went to
14 Hope Elementary School as well, too. I'm fortunate
15 enough to be able to buy a home in Hope, right on
16 Jackson Flat.
17 As a business owner, I'm listening to
18 everything I'm hearing tonight and when we make
19 decisions, we usually, you know, profit and loss
20 statements or SWOT analysis, we'll try to measure
21 the pros and cons versus what opportunity we have
22 and what the threats are, right.
23 I sat here and listened, I was not here at the
24 first meeting but what I heard a lot of is here are

64
1 all the reasons why we don't want this building

2 coming in.
3 What I didn't hear a lot was, here are the
4 opportunities and benefits we are going to be
5 receiving from this building coming in, and,
6 obviously, what's -- you're not even a quarter a
7 mile away from where this is going to be going up
8 but what is that going to do with the property
9 value and things like that?
10 So I just ask that you guys when you do talk
11 tonight, you go through that. Really look at the
12 SWOT analysis. What are the benefits that the
13 residents of Hope and the citizens of this
14 community are really going to be benefiting from
15 it?
16 I appreciate the opportunity to have you
17 people coming in but I have two children that go to
18 Hope School, one right now and one going in next
19 year. Last year, they were at capacity with her
20 grade and the same thing is going on this year. So
21 any extra children in that little school, I don't
22 think it could handle it.
23 The last thing I'll say is: The -- why don't
24 we put like a sports complex there for the kids,

65
1 something, anything but this building, something

2 that this town can actually take advantage of?
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MR. PAYETTE: How are you doing? My name
5 is Michael Payette. I'm the Council Vice-president
6 but I am not here in my capacity. I am here as a
7 resident and taxpayer in the town of Scituate. I
8 live at 482 Rocky Hill Road.
10 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your
11 last name for me, please.
12 MR. PAYETTE: P-A-Y-E-T-T-E. I just
13 wanted to go, as a resident, on the record that
14 there are a couple of things that we've gone on the
15 record before with but I oppose it in it's current
16 state. I do not agree with the big towers in the
17 back.
18 (APPLAUSE)
19 MR. PAYETTE: I would like to see the Mill
20 developed because we do need to get it on our tax
21 roll but I would like to see the front building, I
22 would prefer condos versus apartments.
23 (APPLAUSE)
24 MR. PAYETTE: I would like to see the

66
1 scissor part of the Mill maybe like store fronts so

2 we can get a little more small businesses.
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MR. PAYETTE: There's a lot of things
5 besides the two towers in the back that bother me
6 because I don't think -- I'm 99 percent sure we
7 don't have ladders to reach the top floor. I know
8 mutual aid does.
9 (APPLAUSE)
10 MR. PAYETTE: If there were a tragedy --
11 and I'm a retired police officer from West Warwick
12 and I was involved in the Nightclub fire and that
13 was hell and I don't want to see that in my
14 community.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 MR. PAYETTE: I oppose the septic because
17 God forbid we have huge rain storms or like the
18 100-year flood that we had, that septic is going to
19 be flowing through everybody's yard on Mill Street.
20 I think we should look further into what Mr.
21 Mahoney said, the sewer, even if you run it down --
22 if you run it down the sidewalk from what I've been
23 told and it would cost the same as well it would
24 give people in that area an opportunity to tie

67
1 into, you know, if they wanted to. Because a lot

2 of the systems down there -- and all of the
3 residents are failing. Our system at the police
4 station is failing. The school department is
5 failing.
6 So again, I have a great concern with that
7 septic, whether it's approved or not approved. To
8 me, that should be irrelevant at your thought
9 process.
10 And for calls for service, I agree with -- the
11 Chief did a great job getting calls for service but
12 being a police officer, you have -- especially if
13 they were condos, believe it or not, your calls for
14 service will be less. If you get apartments, your
15 calls for service are going to go through the roof.
16 Now, who's going to pay to put on an extra -- if we
17 have to add another police officer or two?
18 So these are all things that need to be taken
19 into consideration when you're making your
20 decision. As well as -- just food for thought, the
21 mill that was put together in West Warwick, Royal
22 Mill, that developer re-did the elementary school
23 across the street. They paid for the whole thing.
24 It cost the taxpayers zero. So if they would be

68
1 inclined to maybe redo the Hope Elementary or an

2 addition --
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MR. PAYETTE: That school has a lot of
5 issues. That's why we are going out to bond. And
6 again, if you look at the record in West Warwick,
7 they paid to redo that school. It cost them
8 nothing. So if they plan on going this route and
9 if it does get approved, maybe it should be
10 contingent on -- they've got to fix up the schools.
11 Thank you.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, sir, your name
14 is?
15 MR. MAGGIACOMO: Joseph Maggiacomo, 195
16 Howard Ave.
17 THE COURT REPORTER: Could you spell your
18 last name.
19 MR. MAGGIACOMO: M-A-G-G-I-A-C-O-M-O.
21 MR. MAGGIACOMO: Three issues I would like
22 to address quickly. As I'm sure the Board should
23 be aware of, with reference to the septic and the
24 preliminary approval from DEM, that is a baseline.

69
1 You have the right to insist on more. It spells it

2 out clearly within the governing bylaws for this
3 Board. You do not have to rest on the DEM's stamp
4 of approval as the only thing that is required.
5 Fire department, I wasn't here the last time.
6 I'm aware of the Chief's statements. Let me
7 address something that we all know that's true. We
8 don't have an aerial ladder in the city. An aerial
9 ladder costs 1 million dollars. The Chief talked
10 about mutual aid and that's fine. We have
11 Johnston, which doesn't have a bucket. We have
12 Coventry, Anthony that has a bucket. We have West
13 Warwick that has a bucket. We have Garden City in
14 Cranston.
15 Now, I've heard statements from the developers
16 that this is going to be state of the art. There's
17 going to be sprinkler systems, all of this. Time
18 and time again, we see fires in one of the
19 strictest coded cities in this country, New York
20 City, that consumes an apartment or two before
21 fire, rescue can get there.
22 God forbid that we have a fire in an apartment
23 and that's at the door area and we are relying on
24 mutual aid at a 5 or 10-minute response time to get

70
1 a bucket on the fifth floor to rescue that person

2 -- because if they don't, with all due respect,
3 the blood is going to be on the people that vote
4 this through.
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 MR. MAGGIACOMO: It's not going to be on
7 these people. God forbid. That is part of your
8 analysis. During the middle of a busy day, you
9 work with some of these other fire departments to
10 actually see what the response time would be to get
11 an aerial ladder there. That should be a major
12 concern.
13 Never mind getting into the tax issue, that is
14 something not for this. But cost wise, the rescue
15 cost 250 thousand dollars, upwards too. That's
16 money we as taxpayers have to pay out on a bond.
17 We have no idea what the calls for service are
18 going to be but I guarantee they are going to be
19 increased and that's going to be more wear and tear
20 on that rescue and that's going to be less time
21 that that rescue is in service and that's going to
22 be more money that these taxpayers are paying in a
23 bond to replace the rescue. It's going to shorten
24 its life.

71
1 Let's talk about the schools. Dr. Filippelli

2 was very coy in his statements that the Scituate
3 school system could absorb the students. What he
4 didn't say is we're busing students. We're busing
5 students that should be going to Hope, to North
6 Scituate, to Clayville. We are busing students
7 that should be in North Scituate to Clayville or to
8 Hope to juggle maximum capacity so they don't go
9 over 25 students and so they don't have to open up
10 another classroom.
11 I implore you as part of this to go back at
12 least a year and look at the minutes of the
13 Scituate School Department. I lived it. I have
14 children who --
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 MR. MAGGIACOMO: -- I have been to the
17 meetings where issues of bullying came up at North
18 Scituate and Dr. Filippelli said, "We don't have
19 enough money for another classroom." What did they
20 subsequently do: They bused the girl who was being
21 bullied to a different school.
22 Time and time again, we are shuffling kids.
23 Theoretically, we may have capacity. That's
24 questionable and that's something the school system

72
1 needs to look at when it is up and running. But I

2 implore you to get those minutes for the past year
3 and see what's going on and see the citizens'
4 complaints with reference to what is going on in
5 these schools; how there are not enough classrooms
6 and how they handle shuffling children. Children
7 should not have to be shuffled. Thank you.
8 (APPLAUSE)
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your name, sir,
10 please.
11 MR. DURAND: My name is Al Durand. I live
12 at 12 Jackson Flat Road in Hope.
14 THE COURT REPORTER: Your last name, sir.
15 MR. DURAND: Durand, D-U-R-A-N-D. Where I
16 reside the property has been in my family since
17 1953. And back in the day, the river was pretty
18 much was our playground up until the fact that
19 Falvey Linen and Remington's Dairy once a day would
20 discharge all of their used water, which Falvey was
21 a linen cleaning company, sheets and pillow cases
22 and Remington Dairy was a, obviously a bottler of
23 milk, fresh milk.
24 When the Clean Water Act took place, that

73
1 ceased. But in the summer or the spring of 2010,

2 when we had the floods -- and I attest to the
3 testimony earlier tonight that the Hope Mill was in
4 pretty bad shape because I had a friend that had a
5 body shop there and was devastated by the flood
6 impact and how it washed the road away and amongst
7 other things.
8 After the water subsided, you're not going to
9 believe some of the things that I picked up out of
10 the river because I live right on the river, pretty
11 close to the river as anybody can be. When you
12 drive into the town of Scituate, there's two things
13 you see: On 116, it's the Hope Mill; it's the Hope
14 Dam and it's part of the Pawtuxet River.
15 When you come down 115 heading west and drive
16 onto Jackson Flat Road, the first thing you see is
17 the Pawtuxet River. And currently the river is in
18 pretty sad shape. And I say that because over the
19 years it has been choked off and it really never
20 recovered. And no one's really done anything about
21 it, engineers or anyone else for that matter.
22 So I question the position of this building
23 that the developers want to build and its proximity
24 to the river. I believe that there will be more

74
1 debris floating down the river, which, not only do

2 I pick that stuff up, I also police Jackson Flat
3 Road in front of my house for nip bottles of booze,
4 cans --
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 MR. DURAND: It's all out there, believe
7 me when I tell you. It's all out there. I get it
8 everyday. My recycle bin has been half full of
9 trash from people going by and just chucking it.
10 So I question this development and what they
11 are going to do to the river because the river is a
12 big part our town, obviously.
13 I have a question also for the Town Council.
14 As far as affordable housing -- and I know we're
15 under the threshold for affordable housing or I
16 should say assisted or whatever term you want to
17 use. So at what point do we have to start paying a
18 penalty and to who because we are under that level
19 of not having enough affordable housing in the
20 town; do you know what that is?
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Are you asking for a
22 specific count in terms of a number?
23 MR. DURAND: Well, apparently we're not
24 even at 10 percent. We're suppose to have 10,

75
1 correct?
2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes. We are down at
3 the bottom of the state.
4 MR. DURAND: And so what is the penalty to
5 the town for that?
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I don't know that.
7 MR. DURAND: And how long has that been
8 going on?
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Several years, as I
10 understand.
11 MR. DURAND: So going forward, if we don't
12 have affordable housing from the Hope Mill Project,
13 we're back to the day we never had affordable
14 housing for anyone for that matter. There is no
15 way out of that in the town of Scituate because we
16 are a residential community. We don't have
17 industry. We don't have box stores. We don't have
18 any of that stuff because we can't because the
19 reservoir -- in one of the testimonies from the
20 experts, in the last meeting, stated that the
21 Scituate Reservoir as having a major portion of the
22 town.
23 So with that being said, getting back to the
24 river. In the testimony at your last meeting

76
1 someone mentioned a choker clause treatment and I

2 have no idea what that is and I have been in
3 construction for 47 years. So I would like to know
4 what that answer is and if it's a separate
5 treatment or does it go into the septic system
6 proposed by the developer?
7 And I have another question on life safety.
8 They're talking about a four inch standpipe through
9 these stairwells. You'll have a high-pressure line
10 on the street and a low-pressure line in the
11 street. But what is the volume of a four inch
12 standpipe? Four inch in diameter is not a huge
13 standpipe and I don't believe that if there is ever
14 a life-safety issue there that they would have
15 enough water to put out a fire even though it's
16 sprinklered.
17 And will it be a dry system or a wet system?
18 If it's a wet system and it's an unheated area,
19 sprinkler heads pop because they get frozen. If
20 it's a dry system, it has to get pressurized.
21 So there are some things there that I wasn't
22 too clear on. Mr. Pimentel in his testimony he
23 said he was going to concentrate on the historical
24 proponent and the preservation of the Hope Mill and

77
1 the Hope Mill site. Well, let me just say: Adding

2 two, five-story buildings is not consistent with
3 the Mr. Pimentel's testimony.
4 (APPLAUSE)
5 MR. DURAND: And there is no historical
6 value to these two buildings and he is an expert.
7 That's what he said. So he also said he did a
8 project in Jamestown. Now, Jamestown is a little
9 unique because they're more strapped than we are
10 because it's all residential. There's no real
11 economic development. There's, you know,
12 restaurants and bars and that sort of thing. You
13 get to Newport and you take a ferry. That's fine.
14 And he also said people with established roots in
15 the municipality want to keep their kids and he
16 used the word kids in town. Kids are plural.
17 That's not 1/10 or 1/2 of a child for 10 units.
18 That's more.
19 (APPLAUSE)
20 MR. DURAND: Also Mr. Pimentel is a land
21 use expert but he didn't do the analysis on Hope
22 Mill and he said that in his testimony. Can
23 someone explain that to me?
24 (NO RESPONSE)

78
1 MR. DURAND: All right. Next one --

3 MR. DURAND: What is the income threshold
4 for affordable housing? What is the high number
5 and what is the low number for affordable housing?
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Well, affordable
7 housing as I indicated in the summary, it was
8 explained in the last meeting --
9 MR. DURAND: I couldn't attend I was out
10 of town.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At the last meeting it
12 was explained that it is based on 30 percent of
13 your adjusted income going towards the heat,
14 electric or the utilities and rent for the unit as
15 long as when you're at 80 percent of the -- the
16 other qualifier is 80 percent of the median income
17 for the area, which in Scituate based on the 19 or
18 the 2010 --
19 MR. DURAND: Per capita?
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: -- 2010 census was
21 just shy of $90,000. So if you go with 80 percent
22 of that then we are somewhere just over 72,000 at
23 this point.
24 MR. DURAND: So...

79
1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That would be the high

2 side, someone making that.
3 MR. DURAND: And what would be the low
4 side? Do you know the number?
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I don't know what that
6 would be.
7 MR. DURAND: So it's safe to say that
8 someone on social security disability couldn't
9 afford to go there.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: It doesn't matter. If
12 someone is meeting that guideline of making $72,000
13 --
14 MR. DURAND: I don't know anyone on SSDI
15 that makes $72,000.
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: $72,000 or less. They
17 will be eligible to go to that, $72,000 or less is
18 affordable housing.
19 MR. DURAND: I, you know, we can debate
20 that for a while but let me get off that for a
21 little while and talk about the so-called workforce
22 housing, which there's no definition of that
23 anywhere. If you go to Rhode Island Housing and
24 qualify for an apartment at the Hope Mill Complex,

80
1 they're separate and distinct of each other.

2 There's no relation. I had no idea why the expert
3 brought that question up, Mr. Pimentel, he brought
4 that scenario up in his testimony because it has
5 not relevancy to this situation.
6 The affordable housing thing is -- let's say,
7 and I'm not a bigot or a racist, however, if a
8 grandmother moves into one of the apartments and
9 the daughter has a child and the grandmother
10 watches the child and then the daughter has another
11 child by another man and she ends up watching that
12 child. That's two kids. And then the daughter has
13 another child by another guy. She ends up in jail
14 and she's got the three kids at Hope Mill, one
15 apartment.
16 (APPLAUSE)
17 MR. DURAND: And just to close, Mr.
18 Shekarchi said, "We will sell to anybody." That
19 was his quotation at the testimony at the last
20 meeting. And DeRosas said, "I need tax credits to
21 make those numbers work." So guess what? Not only
22 do you have a job but the Town Council has a job to
23 do too. And I must say that the town of Scituate
24 and the village of Hope is paramount to Paramount.

81
1 (APPLAUSE)
2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, ma'am, your name,
3 please.
4 MS. HOPKINS: I don't know how I'm going
5 to top that but I will try. My name is Diana
6 Hopkins. I live at 8 High Street in Hope, Rhode
7 Island. I have --
9 MS. HOPKINS: So I have two major concerns
10 I'd like to bring up. One of which is -- I think
11 hasn't been addressed and that is the fact that you
12 always hear people say we're in a global community.
13 Well, we haven't figured out what the global or --
14 local areas that are neighboring Hope have always
15 been impacted the Hope village. So as people grow
16 and have more families, more schools built, West
17 Warwick, Cranston, Coventry, people go to work,
18 they go Route 95. 95 can only be reached through
19 Hope through 116, 115 and 117.
20 And as a commuter for the last 10 years going
21 both to 95 to get to Providence or going to
22 Connecticut, it has taken a considerable amount
23 more time to get to, not only because the roads are
24 congested but also because the buses once they

82
1 stopped, they caused a lot of congestion. So I

2 would ask you to consider not only what impact it
3 is specifically for Hope but also because, as the
4 towns surrounding us are growing, they are also
5 impacting our community by traveling through it and
6 using our services as well. So we are not an
7 island. We are a small community that is also
8 allowing all of the other things to impact us.
9 The other thing I'd like you to consider is
10 the traffic. So you may consider that people are
11 traveling in and out of this proposed facility
12 going down, up and down 116, 115, spilling out into
13 the other small roads that will bring you to these
14 highways.
15 I live on High Street. Our street tends to be
16 a cut through for 116 to 115 when there's too much
17 traffic at the cross area at 115. I would imagine
18 that there are other places where these cars are
19 cutting through. But I live in a community with
20 children and I can tell you that these cars go up
21 and down these streets extremely fast even though
22 we have tons of signs, people ignore them.
23 (APPLAUSE)
24 MS. HOPKINS: I've seen kids hit by cars

83
1 trying to cut through. And if there is any type of

2 congestion that is coming out of this Mill, they
3 are going to be spilling down on our side streets
4 to get out of that situation, which, again, as you
5 know, is tight parking. So I'm asking you, with a
6 situation that it is, that these cars that are
7 going to be escaping this deplorable situation of
8 getting out of one spot, they're going to try to go
9 up, they're going to hit congestion from all of the
10 other communities coming into this one area to cut
11 trough to either 95 on each side, that they are
12 going to be cutting through residential communities
13 at speeds that can injure children and that's what
14 I have to say.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, ma'am.
17 MS. PIMENTEL: Hi. My name is Sarah
18 Pimentel. Excuse my voice. My previous residence
19 was 30 Hope Furnace Road. I currently live at 75
20 Hope Furnace, right up the road.
22 THE COURT REPORTER: Please spell your
23 last name.
24 MS. PIMENTEL: P-I-M-E-N-T-E-L. I've

84
1 grown up in Hope. I was lucky enough to go to Hope

2 Elementary and continue on to Scituate High School,
3 as we are. Back then, mind you, I'm in my later
4 20s now, looking to settle down, have children -- a
5 huge concern is the population of the schools going
6 up, knowing that there is already two kindergarten
7 schools, two first grade schools.
8 The congestion, never mind. The congestion
9 turning left off of Hope Furnace Road is awful.
10 The amount of accidents that almost happen now is
11 ridiculous. When we add the 193 units that we are
12 going to, I can't even imagine. It's going to add
13 time to people's commutes. It's going to add
14 frustration.
15 And I like my community. I like to keep it
16 small. I live here because it is small and I felt
17 the need to speak because my age group isn't highly
18 represented other than the one prior male that was
19 up here. And I stand by him with, I will move out
20 of here if we approve this.
21 (APPLAUSE)
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, ma'am. Your
23 name, please.
24 REVEREND MITCHELL: I'm Reverend Katherine

85
1 Mitchell. I serve Sheperd of the Valley Methodist

2 Church in Hope.
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me. The people
5 who are out there, if you can shut the doors so we
6 can hear in here, please. The noise is carrying
7 from out in the lobby.
8 THE COURT REPORTER: Your last name,
9 please.
10 REVEREND MITCHELL: My last name is
11 Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L.
12 So I have been serving this community for four
13 year and it's a very high privilege. I have to
14 share with you that in those four years I have seen
15 a steady incline of phone calls and requests for
16 help because people are in a housing crisis in this
17 community and I'm not talking about homeless
18 people. I'm talking about your neighbors who can't
19 make their mortgages. I'm talking about people who
20 can't make their rent.
21 This is a state and housing crisis. And this
22 is a town that has not contributed to assuage that
23 crisis at all. Now, this may not be the project
24 for that. Clearly there are serious concerns and I

86
1 hear those concerns and they seem reasonable. But

2 at some point, good and decent people that I know
3 this town has because I've served you, need to have
4 a conversation about how they are going to
5 contribute to taking care of the whole and carrying
6 part of the responsibility of our brothers and
7 sisters and our neighbors.
8 I am concerned tonight that there's a tendency
9 to vilify the poor when these conversation come
10 along. The people who are qualifying for housing
11 assistance are primarily working people but the
12 living wage in this state is insane in what it
13 requires for you to make enough money to live here.
14 And frankly, with a master's degree from Boston
15 University, if it wasn't for the fact that the
16 church provides housing for me, I couldn't afford
17 to live in Scituate.
18 So I would just ask you to think not -- I'm
19 not even trying to influence this vote in any area
20 in particular other than to say that we have an
21 obligation as good and decent people to create
22 space for all people to live affordably and to at
23 least share apart of that because right now we
24 don't share anything.

87
1 (APPLAUSE)
2 MR. CITAK: My name is Tom Citak. That's
3 C-I-T-A-K. I live at 25 Alberta Street in Hope.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Is that C-I-T-H-A?
6 MR. CITAK: C-I-T-A-K. I have been a
7 resident here in Hope for 20 years and I live off
8 of Hope Furnace Road and I did notice the amount of
9 traffic when I first moved here 20 years ago and it
10 has really increased quite a bit. Especially on
11 my, Hope Furnace, I know they drive pretty fast.
12 But one of my concerns is basically, you know,
13 they are going to build this complex here and
14 Scituate, being a small town and Hope being a
15 little village, is -- you are going to open up a
16 door, basically and allow this to go up. So what's
17 -- where's it going to stop? I can be a contractor
18 coming in here and say, "Yeah, I want to build a
19 development just like that in Scituate." So where
20 is that going to end? Is that going to be
21 something like Coventry, West Warwick, that kind of
22 thing. I'd just hate to see the community, you
23 know, turn into a place like that.
24 I mean, I've been living here in Scituate and

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1 I moved here because I wanted the quietness and,

2 you know, I enjoy the small town, small community
3 and I enjoy that. I do share with what the
4 Reverend was saying as well. I'm a Christian
5 myself. But like I say, where is this going to
6 end? I'd just hate to see the town turn into
7 apartment complexes all over the place, something
8 similar to this. I just wanted to say that and
9 make it brief. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you very much,
11 sir.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 MR. HALEEY: My name is Todd Haleey. I
14 live at 9 Juniper Trail in Hope. One --
16 THE COURT REPORTER: The last name is
17 Haleey?
18 MR. HALEEY: Haleey, H-A-L-E-E-Y.
19 THE COURT REPORTER: And the address.
20 MR. HALEEY: 9 Juniper Trail. I heard an
21 awful lot of talk about these apartments. How many
22 apartments are we talking?
23 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 193.
24 MR. HALEEY: 100 (SIC). How are we

89
1 heating those apartments? Propane or oil and where

2 is this time bomb going to be placed?
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MR. HALEEY: I have a propane tank at my
5 house and all I have is cooking and hot water and I
6 can only imagine how much propane it takes to heat
7 a building, 190 some odd apartments.
8 Number two, I don't know if any of these
9 people have ever seen this Mill under water -- have
10 seen this 100-year, I'll call it a 100-year flood?
11 If you Google what a 100-year flood actually means,
12 it means -- it's called a 100-year flood because it
13 takes -- it's a 1 percent chance that this could
14 happen at any given day. And one percent doesn't
15 sound like a lot but I think the percentage is
16 really low for winning Powerball and everybody
17 still buys a ticket. So I think we believe that it
18 will happen.
19 And also, all of these cars parked in the lot.
20 They're all on that grade and they will all be
21 under water when this happens.
22 And low income people usually have cars that
23 leak oil, leak gas, all kinds of -- merrily,
24 merrily down the street.

90
1 I think there's a lot of -- you know, we as

2 human beings we keep taking and taking from our own
3 benefit and it's time that it stops.
4 I am all for fixing the building or fixing the
5 land. This is not the right thing for this town --
6 (APPLAUSE)
7 MR. HALEEY: I've only been here for four
8 years. My dad lived here much longer than I have.
9 I moved here because of it's a quiet, small town.
10 If I wanted to live in Providence, I would live in
11 Providence. Don't bring Providence to Hope.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, sir.
14 MR. DAROSA: Thank you. My name is Elio,
15 E-L-I-O, DaRosa, D-A-R-O-S-A, no relation. I --
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Address, please.
17 MR. DAROSA: 68 Eagle Drive.
19 MR. DAROSA: Well, Providence is -- I
20 moved here two years ago from Providence to get
21 away from what I am up here talking about, which is
22 affordable housing. It's great. Every town needs
23 it. Every town wants it. Nobody wants it in their
24 neighborhood. I get it. This is right at the edge

91
1 of, you know, Scituate. Coventry is right there.

2 You know, if this was in North Scituate, you know,
3 I have a feeling that we wouldn't even be here
4 today.
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 MR. DAROSA: I just have to talk a little
7 bit about the last time I was here, there were a
8 bunch of experts, an expert for this, an expert for
9 that. There was an expert about traffic. Well,
10 yesterday at 4:00 I'm on 115 trying to turn onto
11 116 for about five minutes because nobody would let
12 me go, never mind when we add 300 -- I'm looking at
13 386 cars, because two cars times 193 is 386.
14 There's not even enough parking for that.
15 I work in home care and I can tell you I've
16 been in many affordable houses. I can tell you in
17 one-bedroom units, yeah, you think you have two
18 people in there. No, there's more like four or
19 five. I had to step over people to the get to the
20 patient's bedroom to work with the patient.
21 Now, when you're talking about two-bedrooms,
22 how many people do you think are in a two-bedroom?
23 Yes, 7, 8, 9. I've seen this. I know it.
24 Tons of kids. So the numbers they are coming

92
1 up with for kids, I didn't see that and I travel

2 the state when I did home care.
3 You know, experts for traffic. Like I said,
4 what I saw yesterday, I don't get it.
5 The DEM -- you know, experts for everybody. I
6 don't see any experts from DEM up here talking
7 about this septic system that they want to put in.
8 I guess the letter suffices. I'm not sure.
9 (APPLAUSE)
10 MR. DAROSA: One of the things that really
11 concern me -- and again, I moved to Scituate
12 because there is no Home Depots, there's no Lowe's,
13 there's none of this stuff. I like it. Don't get
14 me wrong. It's right up the street in Coventry. I
15 like going to Coventry for that stuff. I just
16 don't want it in my town.
17 It's a great town. I love it. We have, you
18 know, zoning in place for a reason. What's the --
19 you know, what's to keep Walmart from building, you
20 know, wanting to build up the street in the near
21 future?
22 I think we need to keep it the way that it is.
23 You know, when I heard the Police Chief talking
24 about some of the other buildings that he

93
1 mentioned, when he talks about arrests and

2 vandalism, you know, I would hope that the majority
3 of Hope residents that are here today would
4 seriously not consider this.
5 It's a beautiful building. I hope we develop
6 it. Somebody from North Scituate at the last
7 meeting brought up elderly housing. I think the
8 elderly need housing, too. Condos -- you know,
9 some great ideas. You know -- something that I
10 feel that -- you know, right now, I don't lock my
11 door. I don't lock my garage.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 MR. DAROSA: I put out a nice patio set.
14 I know it's going to be there. When you put in
15 affordable housing, they're going to be driving
16 through your neighborhood. I'm going to get home
17 and there goes my patio set, gone. So I think we
18 really need to consider these things and we need to
19 try to keep this town what it is. People want to
20 come here for what it is and not turn it into
21 another -- you know, you don't want Coventry.
22 Coventry is a great town. Move there if you like
23 it or West Warwick but let's keep Scituate where it
24 is. Thank you.

94
1 (APPLAUSE)
2 MR. RUDOLF: John Rudolf, 28 Main Street,
3 Hope.
5 microphone, please.
6 MR. RUDOLPH: John Rudolph, 28 Main
7 Street, Hope. (INAUDIBLE)
8 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't
9 hear you.
10 MR. RUDOLPH: John Rudolph, 28 Main
11 Street, Hope. All right. The little red house
12 across from the Mill.
14 MR. RUDOLPH: All right. I've heard an
15 awful lot of great things from our residents
16 tonight and I thank you all for testifying and I
17 support every one of you.
18 I have lived in Hope all of my life. I was
19 born and raised on Hope Avenue and I moved up to
20 Main Street after I got out of the Navy and I've
21 been there ever since.
22 And I've actually been watching the Mill and
23 it has gotten pretty shabby in its years. I know
24 there's a lot of different things that we've

95
1 discussed that we didn't like about what was going

2 on and I agree with every one of them. I would
3 like to throw out a couple of things that I often
4 talked about with my wife that I would like to see.
5 One of them is trying to get some federal aid
6 or state aid or whatever to resurrect the Mill and
7 maybe put some town services over there; maybe the
8 new town hall; maybe the police and fire emergency
9 management, maybe like half the Mill. Maybe the
10 other half of the Mill you could get -- like they
11 did at the Royal Mill, like a Thundermist Medical;
12 maybe even a recovering nursing home type of thing
13 and the other half -- you know, just go back and
14 tear it all down except for the original part of
15 the Mill and we would have a very historic building
16 that should be resurrected and maybe get another
17 couple years out of it.
18 I'm sure it will take a lot of money and it
19 would take a lot of work to try to get some money
20 from the feds and the state, but, if we are an
21 historical district, why couldn't we try?
22 (APPLAUSE)
23 MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you.

96
1 MS. KELLY: Hi. My name is Sandra Kelly

2 and I'm from 395 Rockland Road, North Scituate.
3 And when I read in the paper --
5 MS. KELLY: When I read in the paper a
6 while back about initially I think it said eight
7 variances with no real specifics, I was very
8 concerned. That's a lot of variances. And then
9 the next week it came out that there were seven
10 dimensional variances and one special. That's when
11 I started to speak to friends and family who lived
12 in the town and especially in the village of Hope.
13 Yes, the Mill needs to be saved but not this
14 plan. 193 units in such a small piece of property
15 with so many variances that all have less than
16 required, less then required, less than required.
17 One, exceed the maximum building height and then it
18 goes on, less than required, less than required.
19 No, that's too many. Eight, too many.
20 There's a reason there are zoning laws in Scituate.
21 Eight is just too many.
22 (APPLAUSE)
23 MS. ASERMELY: Hi. My name Martha --

97
1 microphone, please.
2 MS. ASERMELY: My name is Martha Asermely.
3 That's A-S-E-R-M-E-L-Y. I live on 91 Jackson Flat
4 Road. And I would like to also say that this scope
5 of this project --
7 MS. ASERMELY: I would like to say as well
8 that the scope of this project is just far too
9 great and I object to the extensive variations,
10 variances, excuse me, that are needed to allow this
11 project to go through as it's planned.
12 And, you know, I see the traffic that's been
13 mentioned as well. Particularly at rush hour,
14 these people wait such a long time on 115 trying to
15 get on to 116 and it gets pretty hairy. There have
16 been some serious accidents there.
17 There's no doubt there needs to be a traffic
18 light at that spot which will add to the cost to
19 the town, I would imagine. But the -- but with the
20 buses trying to drop off children along that route
21 and also trying to come out of the school in the
22 morning, there is so much traffic going up North
23 Road to get to the highways.
24 It's just that -- the size of that project is

98
1 unreasonable and I wanted to be on record as saying

2 so. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you very much.
4 MR. JOHNSON: My name is Lee Johnson, 253
5 Plainfield Pike, North Scituate.
7 MR. JOHNSON: I'm not about to give any
8 testimony. I'm going to ask you a few questions,
9 if I may?
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Same idea.
11 MR. JOHNSON: I missed last month's
12 meeting and I would like to know who appointed you
13 people; this town council or the previous town
14 council?
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: This varies by the
17 individuals that are on this. I have been on it
18 for seven years, but it varies. We have been
19 appointed through the years by the various
20 councils. Nobody is -- there have been no changes
21 to this Zoning Board under the current council, the
22 Town Council.
23 MR. JOHNSON: I just wanted to make sure
24 there are no allegiants to the Town Council now in

99
1 power; that's what I'm getting at.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: There is no
3 allegiance. This Board operates -- and I can
4 honestly tell you extremely independently because
5 under the prior administration we had people who
6 would say okay we need you to, you know, vote a
7 certain way for a certain property if not we will
8 come back. You come before the Board and you make
9 your statement and then we will address it.
10 The Council members that spoke tonight, were
11 told, "You come to the Board and you address your
12 concerns and we will deal with it that way." We
13 will not hear conversations about these projects
14 going on in our private lives. It goes on in these
15 meetings.
16 MR. JOHNSON: I have one more.
17 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Sir?
18 MR. JOHNSON: Do you know, to your
19 knowledge, if anybody on the Town Council will gain
20 financially by you passing these variances?
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'm not aware of
22 anybody that would have any gain on the Council or
23 the Zoning Board or any other aspect that is
24 involved with our town.

100
1 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.

2 (APPLAUSE)
3 MR. WALSH: My name is Thomas Walsh, 16
4 Mill Street, Hope.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Walsh?
6 MR. WALSH: Walsh, W-A-L-S-H.
8 MR. WALSH: I moved to Hope two years ago
9 because of the school system. I moved out of West
10 Warwick. It's a quiet town here. And what you're
11 proposing, to change all of these variances to
12 bring this project or to approve this project, it's
13 ridiculous. Why can't they work within the zoning
14 that they have and make something that would be
15 beneficial to the town using the proper zoning that
16 is already in place?
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 MR. WALSH: I can understand having
19 low-income housing but to add two buildings that
20 we're going to have to get a ladder truck or a
21 bucket truck for, all the added expenses that have
22 been brought forth from our previous speakers, we
23 don't need it.
24 If you want to work with the current building

101
1 and work with the proper zoning and build

2 something, that's fine. But what you're proposing,
3 we can't pass these variances. It's not going to
4 be good.
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: It might be helpful
7 for you to also know that many of the variances --
8 just taking the structure that is there -- first
9 off, that structure is right now zoned as a
10 manufacturing operation. They are asking for a
11 special use permit, which is the first item of the
12 request to be able to operate this as a residential
13 multi-family structure.
14 So short of going to the Town Council for
15 zoning change from manufacture to residential,
16 that's -- that is one aspect of what is involved
17 with this.
18 MR. WALSH: That's one of the eight.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That's one of the
20 eight items. There are -- if you, in terms of
21 parking regulations, in terms of -- because of the
22 historical aspects of the building, there are
23 aspects of it that have to be -- a variance has to
24 come into place for.

102
1 So we're dealing with those aspects of it and

2 I don't want you to think that we are sitting here
3 -- and I've said this several times already, that
4 we are not very sensitive to exactly what every
5 resident here is feeling.
6 We feel that this is -- we're kind of the
7 gatekeeper, if you will, to what is happening in
8 the town. So we're also -- we're dealing with
9 that.
10 We're also facing another perimeter that the
11 prior Zoning Board of 2006 passed zoning variances
12 that set a precedence, that we -- if this would go
13 to court, the court would say, "Okay. Why did they
14 approve it and you're now saying no you can't?" So
15 we have some issues that have to deal with that.
16 So we have to be careful how we are doing some of
17 these issues.
18 So I don't want to sit here and say that we
19 can't make changes to this but we have to be
20 sensitive to those. So, in some respect, our hands
21 are not tied but we have to be, you know, aware of
22 the prior history that has gone on with this.
23 MR. WALSH: I understand that but like it
24 was stated before, the Zoning Board -- the zoning

103
1 is in place for a specific reason.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes.
3 MR. WALSH: And if they want to use the
4 current building and they want to modify it to
5 housing, that's fine. But these two added
6 buildings that they want to add, the added traffic
7 -- I mean, I'm right on Mill Street. The overflow.
8 They're going to cut through Mill Street to drop
9 onto 115, if that be the case.
10 There's no -- all the extra parking -- snow
11 removal, let's talk about that. These cars will
12 have to be off the road when we get snow. Where
13 are they going to go? So these are things you need
14 to consider as well.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We are absolutely
16 taking your concerns into account.
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Sir, you have spoken
19 before so I'm going to ask you to keep it very
20 brief.
21 MR. MAGGIACOMO: Thank you. One issue, if
22 I can? And again, Joseph Maggiacomo, 195 Howard
23 Ave. I'm a practicing attorney in Massachusetts.
24 I can tell you the standards of the use of

104
1 discretion with reference to any appeal from a

2 Zoning Board or a Planning Board position. I'm
3 going to presume it's the same in Rhode Island.
4 You have council to your right, I'm sure they can
5 answer that.
6 But it seems to be the standard pretty much
7 throughout the U. S. The court gives you great
8 discretion. So when we start talking about
9 precedence and we start talking about issues that
10 have been passed in the past, it really has no
11 relevance to this.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 MR. MAGGIACOMO: Just to let you know.
14 Again, you are afforded under the law a huge amount
15 of discretion. For your decision to be overturned
16 it would have to be an abuse, which is an extremely
17 high standard.
18 So you could deny this if you sought fit and
19 if you listen to the citizens here --
20 (APPLAUSE)
21 MR. MAGGIACOMO: And I would suggest to
22 you that you do not have to worry about past
23 precedence. Thank you.
24 (APPLAUSE)

105
1 MS. DENYSE: Joan Denyse, 147 Peck Hill

2 Road. To embellish upon his statement, that was in
3 2006. And if you listened to these people, in the
4 last 10 to 15 years, there's been an increase in
5 population and traffic. In 2006, we didn't have
6 the traffic problem that we have in 2017.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 MS. DENYSE: You have 12 -- you have 11
9 years going on 12 of population growth and traffic
10 growth. If that were to come up as an issue for
11 the first time now, then we would be assessing by
12 the situation that exists now, not what existed in
13 2006.
14 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: All taken into
15 consideration.
16 MS. DENYSE: Thank you.
17 MS. JONES: Linda Jones, 63 Howard Avenue.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I couldn't catch your
19 name, please.
20 MS. JONES: Linda Jones, 63 Howard Avenue,
21 Hope.
23 MS. JONES: I'm speaking as a retired
24 teacher from North Kingstown where I grew up and

106
1 moved here when my old homestead turned into a Home

2 Depot in North Kingstown and my husband and I
3 bought land in '74 and we moved up here and built
4 our house. He built our house. And by '76, we had
5 three children and we have gone through the
6 Scituate School Department.
7 We've listened to what's going on in the
8 country right now about schools are horrible and
9 teachers don't know what their kids are doing. And
10 I always looked at my three kids who went through a
11 very small class, class-size classrooms, they knew
12 their names, Kelly, Melissa and Lauren. They
13 weren't a number.
14 My kids have gone on to college. They have
15 their master's degrees. They all have good jobs
16 right now. And it's all because of the school
17 system. So when I say this, 193 families are going
18 to come in here, what's going to happen to this
19 future generation that is out here with these kids?
20 Are they going to be able to be brought up the way
21 my three kids were brought up, where teachers knew
22 their names, where if they had concerns, they went
23 to teachers and the teachers know who she was. So
24 if there was a concern, they would come to us.

107
1 So that's my one concern. My other concern is

2 my husband just had open heart surgery and I know
3 that Hope's Fire Department is right down the
4 street, but if we have 193 new buildings that come
5 into the community, I'm not sure if my husband ever
6 has something else or -- if I look around and I see
7 a lot people that are my age out there that are in
8 cardiac -- could have a cardiac episode at any
9 point -- 193, would that volunteer fire department
10 be in time to save us? That's my question.
11 (APPLAUSE)
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I know -- Tim, did you
13 want to make a comment on anything on that?
14 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think I am good.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, sir, your name.
16 MR. MARTIN: Brian Martin, 75 Main Street.
17 I don't have a prepared statement at this time --
19 MR. MARTIN: I don't have a written
20 statement at this time. It's already on record. I
21 think this is a perversion of our picturesque
22 society.
23 I only have one question: When the Board
24 makes its decision, will it be in a public setting

108
1 like this or do you guys do it behind closed doors?

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We make the decision
3 -- we will be meeting such as -- like this table
4 right here, and we will be talking amongst
5 ourselves.
6 It will not be in a situation where the public
7 will be invited for comment at that point. It
8 would be -- we would be discussing the merits of
9 the different points that have been brought up and
10 what we, you know, our individual opinions and then
11 coming up with a final decision on each individual
12 variance or special use permit that is being
13 requested.
14 MR. MARTIN: All right. And how does your
15 decision reach the public?
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: You can watch for it.
17 It ends up being right in the minutes of the
18 meetings, which are again posted in the town's web
19 site and such.
20 MR. MARTIN: Awesome. Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Is there anybody else
22 who wishes to speak for or against the project?
23 MR. Wolf: Yes. My name is Ray Wolf,
24 W-O-L-F. I'm the --

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1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your address, please.

2 MR. WOLF: 49 Harrington Avenue, Hope.
4 MR. WOLF: Sullivan and Brady came in and
5 bought Anthony Mill, restored it, did a beautiful
6 job. They went down and bought Harris Mill, did a
7 beautiful job. I don't understand why they have to
8 build two buildings behind the Hope Mill; that's
9 one thing.
10 The other thing is: In the morning when
11 traffic is going to work and in the evening 4:30,
12 5, 5:30, when traffic is coming home, I have a
13 difficult time getting out of Harrington Avenue
14 onto Main Street. I can't imagine what 193 people
15 -- families are going to do to the traffic in Hope;
16 I really can't. Thanks.
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I can't disagree with
19 you. I travel through -- I'm one of the people
20 that regularly travels 116, so I do know -- and
21 particularly sometimes in those high-traveled
22 particular hours, so I do know what you're
23 referring to about the traffic, particularly at the
24 two intersections that are on either side of the

110
1 Hope Mill.
2 Yes, ma'am.
3 MS. DOMINGUEZ: My name is Amanda
4 Dominguez. That's D-O-M-I-N-G-U-E-Z. I live at 64
5 Jackson Flat Road.
7 MS. DOMINGUEZ: I moved into Scituate and
8 into Hope about 10 years ago. I was here with the
9 flood. My property was engulfed by the flood and
10 -- I'm sorry. I'm a little emotional because I
11 came to Hope to raise my three children, two of
12 which are currently in Hope Elementary and one who
13 will going in a couple of years and my husband and
14 I work very hard to try to maintain our property
15 and we are currently working with a surveyor and
16 the DEM to put up a retaining wall at the back end
17 of my property so that if the river should ever
18 rise again, it doesn't engulf my entire in-ground
19 pool and come into my home.
20 I have had to have several surveys, different
21 types of surveys done because the DEM has said that
22 the lower end of my property is now part of the
23 floodplain. So they have to re-grade.
24 And I also recently found out -- excuse me --

111
1 that because the river, which is my neighbor, is 10

2 feet wider, is more than 10 feet wide, they have
3 200 feet of jurisdiction of my property, which is
4 pretty much my entire property. So I'm not sure
5 what I'm paying taxes for, if the DEM can do
6 whatever they want to my property.
7 So it's difficult for me to comprehend how we
8 can put up a septic system on an area that's pretty
9 much a peninsula, when I'm having a problem putting
10 up a retraining wall.
11 So I just hope that you really take into
12 consideration -- I understand that they have been
13 given somewhat of an approval on this septic system
14 but it will impact those of us that live along the
15 river if again this should flood and also if
16 something else should happen to that septic system.
17 Not to mention the concerns I have to the
18 school being impacted by the number of children
19 that come into the town.
20 In addition to the traffic, there are tractor
21 trailers that go up and down 115 every single day.
22 I can't count how many. In addition to people
23 flying down the road.
24 So this all is going to impact those of us

112
1 that came to this town for the reason of what Hope

2 village is, a quiet, well-educated community. So I
3 would urge to please take those of us that are here
4 today, take our concerns really into consideration
5 and not just worry about those, you know, the
6 people who have the dollars.
7 Because I'm not a millionaire, I can't ask the
8 DEM to come in and all of a sudden say, "You're
9 okay. You can do whatever you want." I have to
10 jump through hoops. I have to follow their
11 regulations. I have to get survey after survey
12 just to put up a retaining wall.
13 So please take us into consideration today. I
14 implore you. Thank you.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your name, sir.
17 MR. SENERCHIA: My name is Jason
18 Senerchia, S-E-N-E-R-C-H-I-A. 81 and 91 Colvin
19 Street.
21 MR. SENERCHIA: I've lived on Colvin
22 Street since 1972. I -- my best friend lived on
23 Mill Street. I grew up around the Mill, under it,
24 around it and over it. We played on the property.

113
1 And it disgusts me to see what condition it is in

2 right now. And I do support redeveloping it.
3 But not to bring up old ghosts but in 2005,
4 after my father paying 32 years of taxes on a small
5 lot attached to the house I grew up in, we
6 approached the Zoning Board because my sister
7 wanted to put a small shotgun ranch for her husband
8 and child on the lot that was a bit too small. And
9 we were vehemently denied. The explanation was
10 because it doesn't fit well in the neighborhood.
11 So if a shotgun ranch with three people living
12 in it doesn't fit well in the neighborhood, this
13 thing sure in hell doesn't.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 MR. SENERCIA: Moving forward, if we give
16 them what they need to develop the present mill
17 building and make it something nice, that's fine.
18 The other two towers, the other stuff that is going
19 overboard.
20 I'm a very practical person like these folks.
21 I don't give a damn what you say in theory, what
22 the police can handle, the fire, schools or
23 whatever the case may be. Practically speaking, 99
24 percent of the people that were in this room

114
1 tonight don't want it and that's the bottom line.

2 Thank you.
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Have we reached the --
5 is there anybody else who wishes to speak for or
6 against?
7 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Anybody for? Is there
8 anybody for?
10 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We are all against.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Mr. Shekarchi, do you
12 have anything to add?
13 MR. SHEKARCHI: No, thank you. Thank you
14 very much.
15 MS. HOPKINS: I just have a question. I
16 just want to know after you've heard everything
17 tonight, what -- and I don't want to say this the
18 wrong way but you obviously had to form some
19 opinions already but I want to know when you say
20 you're taking this into consideration, are you
21 taking this into consideration as what's going to
22 be forming your major opinion or are you just going
23 to say "Well, we've heard you but we are going to
24 just go with what our previous opinions are?"

115
1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We can't -- we have

2 not and this is going to sound crazy to you, we
3 have not talked individually about this. The time
4 that we will get to talk about this is when we do
5 the negotiating, deliberation on this. It is then
6 an individual review of each material. So I cannot
7 tell you this is how it is going to go.
8 THE COURT REPORTER: I just need your name
9 for the record, please.
10 MS. HOPKINS: Diana Hopkins.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Diana Hopkins.
12 Attorney Shekarchi.
13 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you very much. Mr.
14 Chairman and honored members of the Board, I just
15 want to say thank you for the two weeks and two
16 days of testimony.
17 In summation of our argument, I would just
18 like to refresh the Board's recollection and again
19 thank you for the hours of deliberations. As you
20 know, the zoning has a statutory framework and I
21 believe that we have met the burdens that were
22 requested for the variances this evening and last
23 week.
24 I want to point out Mr. Pimentel's report.

116
1 He's listed as an expert -- DiPrete Engineering,

2 the DEM approval for the land, the traffic report
3 and all the expert testimony that went into this.
4 And I would just like to point out, I wasn't aware
5 nor did I request or even know or talk to the Fire
6 Chief, the Police Chief or the School
7 Superintendent or the Principal. But all of them
8 gave cognizant testimony, totally independent of
9 us. Not necessarily expert testimony but certainly
10 prevalent testimony. And I ask you to consider
11 those as well.
12 I know this is an emotional hearing. There's
13 a lot of people and lot of fears and there was an
14 awful lot of lay testimony regarding conditions and
15 situations but how much of that is relevant to what
16 is before you today?
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me. He is
19 doing his summary version. We will be taking
20 everybody's comments into consideration, please
21 understand that.
22 MR. SHEKARCHI: I ask you to look at the
23 general laws and the statutory requirements to make
24 a decision and I trust you will and I thank you

117
1 again.
2 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's not amazing that
3 the experts agree with you -- that you pay.
4 (APPLAUSE)
6 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Why not a town-wide
7 referendum?
9 MR. DURFEE: A lot of the people are very
10 concerned about the septic system. And I'm
11 wondering if you have somebody here who can testify
12 as to what will happen if for instance there was a
13 foot of water over your parking lot?
14 MR. SHEKARCHI: I will defer to the
15 engineer who designed the system that was approved
16 by DEM.
17 MR. DURFEE: That's perfectly fine.
18 MR. SHEKARCHI: DiPrete Engineering. It's
19 Kevin Morin. He was previously sworn as an expert.
20 I'd ask that he be recognized again today.
21 MR. MORIN: Kevin Morin, DiPrete
22 Engineering, M-O-R-I-N.
24 MR. MORIN: The septic system design and

118
1 overall project went through a review with Rhode

2 Island DEM, the water resources program, the fresh
3 water wellness program, the OWTS Program and the
4 wetlands program. It also went through review with
5 waste management in terms of the environmental
6 history of the property.
7 The project as proposed does not impede, fill
8 or change the 100-year floodplain of the Patuxet
9 River. That was part of the review that DEM --
10 that we had to show the burden of proof why that
11 was the case and they reviewed it as part of the
12 application process. So that's both sides, both
13 the project overall as well as the OWTS septic
14 system part.
15 The location of the septic system is outside
16 of the 100-year floodplain. The location of septic
17 tanks is outside of the 100-year floodplain. The
18 locations of the all the components is outside of
19 the 100-year floodplain. So that was part of the
20 record submitted to DEM, approved by both those
21 departments in their approval letters and approval
22 plans, what have you.
23 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So can I ask where the
24 location of the that is because the Mill was

119
1 underwater?
2 MR. DURFEE: Do you know what the
3 difference in elevation is between the parking lots
4 and where the septic system is?
5 MR. MORIN: Offhand, I don't -- bear with
6 me one second and I can take a look. The parking
7 lot -- if you go to the backside of the Mill, which
8 is where the main parking area is, the proposed
9 main parking area, the elevation is approximately
10 188 to the center of the parking lot about where
11 the two center buildings, the two new buildings
12 connect or right in the middle of those.
13 The septic is approximately -- the elevation
14 is 182. It varies in grade. The floodplain also
15 varies. The floodplain changes as you move down
16 stream. It's not a constant elevation from -- it
17 changes significantly from the top of the dam to
18 the bottom of the dam. As you go down the river,
19 the floodplain changes as you go downstream. It's
20 not like the ocean where you have a floodplain --
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me. Not at
23 this time, sir. We're directing questions to the
24 individuals. Hold onto your question.

120
1 MR. JONES: Will I be able to ask? It's

2 relevant to the floodplain elevation. I live on
3 the river. We have had five floods since 1976 that
4 have exceeded the 100-year floodplain level.
5 We are just watching what's happening down in
6 Texas. That's happening here. The elevation of my
7 river in front of my house is 187 feet above the
8 elevation of the Mill basically. But the
9 floodplain, it floods at least 8 feet at 63 Howard
10 Ave.
11 If this septic system is not designed for a
12 flood that exceeds the 100-year floodplain level,
13 it's not going to work because we've had it five
14 times since 1976.
15 (APPLAUSE)
16 THE COURT REPORTER: What is your name,
17 sir?
18 MR. JONES: My name is Leland Jones and I
19 just had open heart surgery a month ago.
20 (APPLAUSE)
21 MR. DURFEE: So what my original question
22 was: What would happen if there were a foot of
23 water over the septic system?
24 MR. MORIN: Hypothetically if there were a

121
1 foot of water over the septic system?

2 MR. DURFEE: Yes.
3 MR. MORIN: You would have a surcharge
4 condition, just like most of the septic systems in
5 a lot of the areas across the state. If you have a
6 surcharge, ground water gets surcharged, surface --
7 If it were a stagnant water elevation, really
8 nothing, the system would function. Once the water
9 went back down, I mean, you would get the ground
10 water out of the system. It will function.
11 I mean -- so even if the sewers ever surcharge
12 -- during the floods in West Warwick, in Warwick,
13 our systems were in about two inches of flooding,
14 95 was shut down.
15 It's a temporary -- I mean, if there were a
16 foot of water in the system, it would be a
17 temporary condition, water would recede and, you
18 know, there may be some electrical things to deal
19 if it were that condition and there would be some
20 mechanical things to deal with if it were that
21 condition, sewer pump stations, things like that.
22 You know, a lot of -- you'd probably have to
23 pump septic tanks, pump some of the pumps, some of
24 chambers, things like that, which is something you

122
1 would do after an event like that, just like they

2 did in Misquamicut after Sandy, similar to that.
3 If it was erosive, you could have some repairs
4 to make. Potentially, if erosion took place, you
5 would have to deal with that; the owner would have
6 to deal with that.
7 MR. DURFEE: Thank you.
8 MR. DAMICO: I have a question. In the
9 event that there was something that happened
10 catastrophic flood-wise is there a way to guard
11 against that? It there a way to over build the
12 system so that it would be resistant to something
13 like a 200-year flood?
14 MR. MORIN: Yeah. I mean, the tanks are
15 ballasted. They have anchors to keep them from
16 floating and things like that. You know, just
17 normal operations, we have excess capacity for
18 storage during events, a pump down, things like
19 that. It's built into the system. We actually
20 have a day of storage built into the system, which
21 is a requirement from DEM.
22 You know, the elevations -- the elevation, I
23 think at the last meeting I gave testimony, I was
24 out there in 2010. I said the area where the

123
1 septic system was still above water when I was out

2 on the site, late morning, going back seven years.
3 It flooded the side of the building where the
4 raceway is, if you come outside of the channel.
5 The controls inside of the building didn't allow
6 water through. So there was definitely flooding
7 that took place.
8 I don't want to mislead anyone to say there
9 was no flooding around the Mill. You couldn't get
10 to the back of the Mill from the right-hand side;
11 the flood waters were there. I didn't go back
12 there. My observation was from the street, from
13 Mill Street, the end there where it meets the Mill.
14 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At that time -- one of
15 things that you just mentioned about the raceway
16 and I don't know if you had said or someone else
17 said it beforehand, that the raceway had been
18 blocked with debris. Is that a situation in the
19 2010 flood --
20 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Charland, can you
21 please speak up.
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: After the 2010 flood,
23 there was some discussion, somebody had mentioned
24 whether it was you last month or August 1st or

124
1 someone who was speaking mentioned that the raceway

2 was clogged up with debris. I don't know if that
3 was true and I would love to see a picture whether
4 it was or not. But if that were clogged, would
5 that have an impact on the --
6 MR. MORIN: Yes, it would have been a
7 relative relief for water coming over the dam to
8 pass through the raceway. There would have been
9 enough relief to pass through the Mill rather than
10 back up and -- basically it went around both sides,
11 left and right.
12 That's my understanding. I didn't go in the
13 Mill. That was my understanding from the events
14 that happened at that time. I've never seen the
15 inside workings of the control structure that's
16 inside, so.
17 MR. RAMBONE: I don't know if you can
18 answer it, but in regards to flooding in that area,
19 as far as, you've got a lot of cars in the ground,
20 parking under the building, obviously, there will
21 be parking outside, a couple hundred cars, is there
22 a tank that runoff goes into, prior to? Where does
23 it go? Where do the drains and parking lots and
24 gutters and --

125
1 MR. MORIN: Yeah.

2 MR. RAMBONE: Where does this go?
3 MR. MORIN: The drainage -- there is
4 really no drainage there today. DEM did ask us to
5 deal with storm water, deal with quality. And what
6 we did is that we integrated that with pervious
7 pavement, which is the pavement proposed for most
8 of the area.
9 We have some impervious pavement over a couple
10 of the septic tanks but that was it. So most of
11 it's pervious and we run roof leaders off of the
12 building to tie into basically a stone reservoir
13 that will infiltrate the roof runoff as well as the
14 parking lot runoff.
15 We did design into that just as a, I guess, an
16 emergency or overflow type system with some
17 drainage catch basins at the low points and an
18 outlet back towards the river.
19 Again, not to be used except in a real
20 significant storm, even a 100-year storm plus.
21 Most of the water from the normal rainstorms, up to
22 25 year, if I'm not mistaken, is intended to
23 infiltrate within the site and not outlet to the
24 river.

126
1 MR. RAMBONE: So what you're saying is if

2 those -- if the basement flooded, basically, where
3 the cars are in, it would just go to the river
4 basically because there is no catch basin, there is
5 no tank that can be pumping or any other method,
6 it's just going to go...
7 MR. MORIN: Right. If there's -- like if
8 there were a flood like in 2010, you would be going
9 over land at that point, around the side of the
10 building and into the river.
11 MR. RAMBONE: Okay.
12 MR. GADDES: I have a question. Based on
13 the overall plan, there's a parcel that is
14 encapsulated within this project, can you lend some
15 history as to why that is not part of this project?
16 MR. MORIN: It's under separate ownership.
17 It's not part of what is in receivership, what's
18 part of control of Paramount.
19 MR. GADDES: Is the project viable in
20 phase one only?
21 MR. MORIN: I -- in terms of financially;
22 is that the question?
23 MR. GADDES: Is it still a viable project
24 in phase one only?

127
1 MR. MORIN: I would defer to --

2 MR. DEROSAS: No, it's not a viable
3 project in phase one only. Really you need all
4 three phases.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I need to swear you
6 back in. Your name, please.
7 MR. DEROSAS: Richard DeRosas,
8 D-E-R-O-S-A-S, Paramount Development Group.
10 MR. DEROSAS: The project is not viable
11 without all three phases. Phase one and two are
12 difficult phases. Anybody can see that. I don't
13 know if anyone has been to the Mill lately but the
14 thing is about to implode. It's very expensive.
15 We have high construction costs. There is no
16 sewage. So we have to get sewage to the units.
17 Wetlands is expensive to engineer. A lot of
18 engineering has to be done.
19 We have a NOV, there's a violation. The
20 previous developer caused a problem with DEM and
21 the wetlands. It was an 80 thousand dollar fine
22 because of that. That fine goes with the property
23 and that's from DEM.
24 So it looks like it would be a number of years

128
1 before we can make a profit. We have to build out

2 phase one and two. Phase one, no profit. Phase
3 two, we will try but mill three is in pretty bad
4 shape. Building number 4 is that small building on
5 the corner of mill number two and the roof is gone
6 and most of the floor is gone.
7 So I'm doing my best to save the Mill but if I
8 don't have phase three, I guess there is no money
9 to be made. So to answer the question, no --
11 MR. DEROSAS: To answer your question
12 phase one does not make it feasible.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: If the Board would
14 come back and say we need to scale back, even if we
15 are scaling back 10, 15 percent, at what point do
16 you feel the project -- I'm going to say the break
17 even point is?
18 MR. DEROSAS: We can't reduce the unit
19 count.
20 (AUDIENCE DISRUPTION)
21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Then we can't give you
22 variances.
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: One of the things that
24 has been brought up has been traffic. I will tell

129
1 you that I was very disappointed in the traffic

2 study that was done.
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I don't think your
5 group did any service to yourself in having the
6 traffic study that was presented.
7 If we're going to go forward, I'm going to
8 suggest that we hire an independent traffic
9 consultant to do this and -- your expense, before
10 we go any further because -- that and the parking.
11 I'm still very concerned about parking. We
12 are in a community, this is me talking, I have not
13 addressed this with any members of the Board, but
14 we are in a community that doesn't have public
15 transportation.
16 Every community that was cited in the
17 presentation in terms of the proposed increase in
18 parking, has RIPTA -- in our area that is the bus
19 transportation service that goes by the facility.
20 This Mill does not and consequently that will cause
21 us to need -- and that is why we have the zoning
22 ordinance, the two parking spaces per unit.
23 So that is another concern that I have. And I
24 personally will have a hard time applying any kind

130
1 of variance to parking without finding a way of

2 increasing the parking to the two vehicles.
3 But the traffic is something that I think you
4 should address. I also think that something should
5 have been addressed related to the increase in the
6 building values or the property changes that will
7 be coming about because -- if you look from -- I'm
8 not a realtor but I know that some of the areas
9 where the old mills have been restored, what's
10 ended up happening, some of those properties have
11 increased in value but you haven't addressed that.
12 So I'm disappointed that that was not included
13 in your presentation so we have an opportunity to
14 say to the people with some response of saying,
15 "Yes, it will increase your value for", you know --
16 or we shouldn't expect that. We don't know. That
17 was not presented.
18 If you have something that's in this that
19 we've missed, I welcome you, you know, please, tell
20 us where we missed it in the presentation.
21 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 Two points I make: In terms of value, we had Mr.
23 Pimentel's report to reply upon. But in addition
24 to that, respectfully, I don't believe that that's

131
1 a requirement under the zoning ordinance or the

2 state statute when you talk about the real estate
3 values.
4 Nevertheless, I have the traffic expert here
5 and if you'd like to, I could put him on or if the
6 pleasure or request or requirement is that an
7 independent traffic study be done, I can certainly
8 address that. And if you wanted to, at the next
9 hearing, if you wanted to have an independent
10 traffic report, then I can have an independent real
11 estate agent expert or if the Board, if they
12 wanted, they could get someone and we will absorb
13 that cost if that is a requirement of the Board?
14 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. Just to, you
15 know, when we look at our -- looking at the
16 variances or a special use permit, it will be
17 compatible with the neighboring land uses. Traffic
18 has an impact on that. It will not create a
19 nuisance in the neighborhood. Additional traffic
20 would have an impact on that. The parking and the
21 spaces and how that will be -- where people will be
22 parking will have an impact on that.
23 To provide future development of the town, I
24 think this project is great for that aspect of it;

132
1 however, it will also be in conformance for the

2 purposes and intent of the comprehensive plan and
3 zoning ordinance. Those are also factors we have
4 to consider.
5 But the point I'm making with the parking and
6 the traffic and the building values, those are
7 reasons that we need to address or see before we
8 make, I think, a decision on this and going
9 forward.
10 I want for these people to know that if this
11 traffic is coming into their community, what impact
12 is that going to have on them?
13 MR. SHEKARCHI: I believe, in terms of,
14 the comprehensive plan, the conformity to it and
15 the consistency of it, I believe that was addressed
16 by Mr. Pimentel in his testimony and report. I can
17 -- I have the traffic expert here this evening. I
18 can put him on, any member of the Board can ask any
19 questions.
20 And if the Board's pleasure, as you indicated
21 earlier, was to seek an independent traffic
22 analysis, then that is certainly within your
23 purview and we will accept that requirement or
24 request by the Board. It's entirely the pleasure

133
1 of the Board, Mr. Chairman.

2 But I have the traffic expert here this
3 evening, if you would like to ask him any questions
4 or if you want to go with an outside report, that's
5 fine as well.
6 MR. COSTAKOS: I have a question. I just
7 have -- how did you determine to do the septic
8 system versus bringing in a sewer line? Are there
9 numbers in these documents that do an analysis, so
10 that we can see the -- how you came to that
11 conclusion?
12 MR. SHEKARCHI: I can again put the
13 engineer on. But it goes to the practicality of it
14 of how you connect, how long you connect, the cost
15 effectiveness of connecting and the process. I
16 believe you go through different towns to connect.
17 I believe you go through some other private
18 properties that my client, the receiver does not
19 control.
20 So the only feasible way that we had control
21 over was to design a state of the art septic system
22 that took into all those considerations. That was
23 a very difficult system to engineer, give DePrete
24 Engineering credit that went to DEM and it was

134
1 reviewed by DEM. It was a negotiated process over

2 several months with DEM. Before DEM -- this was
3 all post flood, by the way. Before DEM approved it
4 and stamped it as, yes, it's viable. It's state of
5 the art. It's the best septic system available.
6 It will service the needs and we have full
7 confidence -- and respectfully, it's under their
8 jurisdiction.
9 So that's where you go to get approval. You
10 don't go to a town to get a septic system approval.
11 You go to DEM to get a septic system approval.
12 MR. COSTAKOS: So it wasn't a financial
13 decision. It was a feasible, feasibility decision?
14 The project is not feasible with a sewer line.
15 MR. SHEKARCHI: I don't think it is even
16 possible. That's my opinion. I'm not an expert.
17 But that's what my experts and clients are telling
18 me, it was a -- the only particular way to make
19 this Mill work.
20 MR. RAMBONE: Just one question. Have we
21 -- have your engineers gotten with the prior
22 building inspector to talk about the --
23 SHEKARCHI: -- the sewers?
24 MR. RAMBONE: -- sewers?

135
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: Mr. Provonsil? I'll let

2 them speak. I believe they had some contact with
3 him before.
4 MR. RAMBONE: And I'm only bringing him up
5 because he has the history. And I know Hope. It's
6 wet. There's a lot of cesspools and stuff and --
7 MR. SHEKARCHI: I don't want to speak for
8 them. So they can answer whether they met with him
9 and spoke with him. I just wanted to make sure we
10 were talking about the same person when I said Mr.
11 Provonsil.
12 MR. MORIN: The -- I think the discussion
13 with Mr. Provonsil --
14 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you use the
15 microphone, sir.
16 MR. MORIN: Sure. The discussions with
17 Mr. Provonsil weren't so much on sewer or septic.
18 It was really the project.
19 The project that we discussed with our client
20 going on, the timing -- it was a very
21 time-sensitive project. In prior years, people had
22 come to us looking at this property, talking about
23 on-site waste water treatment as a possible option.
24 We hadn't done any investigations on whether it was

136
1 feasible or wasn't feasible. We then did some

2 investigation and we met with DEM and that was a
3 time line that I don't think a sewer project could
4 ever get close to, in terms of review process and
5 approval process.
6 The sewer, I think I gave testimony the last
7 time, it's a long way. It's about 1.8 miles
8 depending on the route you go. It could be a
9 little more or a little less. It's a long way. It
10 goes through three towns possibly four with
11 Cranston possibly in the mix.
12 You know, we looked at that. I was involved
13 in the project in 2005 and 2006, you know, on a
14 consulting basis. We did surveys. We did assist
15 with the master plan and things like that.
16 We looked at sewer, you know, it was deemed as
17 potentially viable. It had a long way to go. We
18 had some preliminary meetings with the town,
19 certainly with Scituate, Coventry and West Warwick
20 with their consulting engineer.
21 The consulting engineer went as far as doing a
22 feasibility impact study of West Warwick's sewer,
23 which I think maybe was submitted earlier. I'm not
24 sure -- looking at how it impacts the

137
1 infrastructure. I believe there were some upgrades

2 needed, an interceptor and things like that.
3 So that's how far it went. It never got into
4 an application with DEM, mapping the route, into
5 surveying the property, figuring out title and
6 availability to bring the line through. Cost, we
7 didn't get into a cost analysis and things like
8 that.
9 You know, it's a sewer water removal. That's
10 the process you go through for a sewer extension,
11 RIDEM application. It's actually an application
12 that all three towns would have to co-sign on
13 essentially, over four if Cranston was involved.
14 The route that was planned was along the
15 river. It was a lot of work being down, thousands
16 of feet I would estimate along the river banks of
17 the Patuxet River, including crossing the Patuxet
18 River. So difficult, in my opinion, in wetland
19 applications. Possible, maybe, just a hard
20 application.
21 But that whole design, in coordination with
22 the town, that's a long process. That wasn't a
23 process that my office was even going to meet. We
24 recommended to use another consultant who's a

138
1 specialist in sewers.
2 So hopefully that clarifies or helps address
3 that question.
4 MR. RAMBONE: Yes. I'm just seeing the
5 attempts that this town has made into future
6 sewers.
7 MR. MORIN: Uh-hum.
8 MR. RAMBONE: I'm seeing what investment
9 your client is putting into the septic system and
10 it just seems like maybe we can get together and
11 help, you know, residents of Hope with their
12 problems especially with the septic laws. That's
13 all.
14 MR. SHEKARCHI: Mr. Chairman, I just had
15 an opportunity to speak with my client --
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me for one
17 second. Sir, we have closed the public section,
18 I'm sorry. We have to deal with all of the issues.
19 We will be here all night at this point.
20 MR. SHEKARCHI: We will happy, if the
21 Board wanted a peer review of our traffic report,
22 we would be happy to fund that and we will let,
23 obviously, you pick whatever licensed Rhode Island
24 engineer, traffic engineer you wanted and I'm not

139
1 even going to suggest anybody. I know there's

2 several good ones in Rhode Island.
3 If you wanted a peer review study of our
4 traffic, we would have no problem paying for that
5 expense.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. I appreciate
7 that and I also am concerned with how we deal with
8 the parking issue. I'm not sure --
9 MR. SHEKARCHI: That will be included in
10 that.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. Does that -- is
12 the Board content with that? Comfortable with
13 that? Okay. I'm taking a head poll of the Board.
14 Each one is nodding yes. So I will say yes, we
15 will explore or pursue that.
16 MR. SHEKARCHI: Would you have your legal
17 council contact me --
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes.
19 MR. SHEKARCHI: -- within a week or so --
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Absolutely.
21 MR. SHEKARCHI: -- or my co-council, Mr.
22 Caprizzo? And then we will submit a report within,
23 less than 30 days; would that be acceptable?
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Absolutely.

140
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any other questions of
3 the Board at this point?
4 MR. DAMICO: Pardon my ignorance on this
5 but what would be the possibility of having a bus
6 line taken through there? I don't know if it's
7 possible or if it's an option or who even
8 determines that, but is there any possibility to
9 have a bus line that would run by this complex?
10 MR. SHEKARCHI: I honestly don't know. I
11 don't know how --
12 MR. DAMICO: I didn't expect you to know
13 now. I was just throwing it out there. I didn't
14 know what the feasibility of it is or if it is even
15 possible.
16 MR. SHEKARCHI: We can explore that. I've
17 never been involved with that at all to be quite
18 honest. I don't want to make any kind of
19 representation one way of the other.
20 MR. DAMICO: Okay.
21 (DISCUSSION BETWEEN BOARD MEMBERS)
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We are right now
23 trying to confirm the date for the next meeting,
24 please bear with me.

141
1 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At this point, I'm
3 going to entertain a motion by the Board to suspend
4 this hearing again, as I indicated earlier on, so
5 that we can get this report done.
6 We will resume on September 27th. That's
7 Wednesday evening at 7 p.m. And that way we will
8 be able -- at this location. So --
9 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Excuse me. Will that be
10 open meeting or closed meeting?
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At that point, it will
12 be open for the first part where we have the
13 presentation of these reports, but then we will go
14 into deliberation.
15 And during the deliberation phase, you will be
16 able to sit right here in the audience. You will
17 be able to hear our discussions going on as best
18 these microphones will allow and then what will end
19 up happening is that we will be making a decision
20 at that point on each individual variance or
21 special use permit. Okay?
22 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Do I hear a motion?
24 MR. GADDES: I make a motion to suspend

142
1 the meeting.
2 MR. DURFEE: Second.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Motion made by Steve
4 Gaddes and Paul Durfee seconded it to suspend this
5 meeting at this point and to be resumed on the 27th
6 of September at 7 p.m. at this location.
7 Thank you very much everybody for coming.
8 (HEARING SUSPENDED AT 10:10 P.M.)
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Scituate Zoning Board Transcript - August 29, 2017 - Case #1200 - Hope Mill Project

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Scituate Zoning Board Transcript - August 29, 2017 - Case #1200 - Hope Mill Project

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1

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 (PROCEEDING COMMENCED 7:11 P.M.)

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 Anyone who has attended the meetings, not just

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 While we consider it your right to have your

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 alternate. And when that becomes of value is if we

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: W, I'm sorry. The 300

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 good standing and I am prepared to enter that as a

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 ask that that be identified. I have a map -- a

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 two-bedroom units and I concluded to support our

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 than the front building; however, due to the slope

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 just shy of $90,000 in the 2010 census.

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 tonight and I want to explain why. This is going

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 5.18 students multiplied by 1.6 affordable equals

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 school students per dwelling. Thus the number of

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 the marketing strategy of the developer are but

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 as well or if you're satisfied with the info as it

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 The high school, about 10 percent. The low

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 So when they take their snapshot of the

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 for hit and run.

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 The next facility, which is also in the town

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 minimum with that facility going in.

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 are on the higher end of moderate/high, you know,

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 many concerns that have already been raised at

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 concerns are as follows: The first one would be

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 I believe a project of this magnitude, that's

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 stage and certificate of occupancies are handed

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 (SWORN IN BY CHAIRMAN CHARLAND)

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 I am proud of my town, my village. That is

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 have security now, so we're not worried about that

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139