Artifact rules.

I know there are some rules for artifacts, but I'm not sure where they are all located (in the
books and on the net). Could someone help me out here?
____________________________________
Upper_Krust
Hello again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil

I know there are some rules for artifacts, but I'm not sure where they are all located (in the
books and on the net). Could someone help me out here?
'Rules for Artifacts'. I'm not sure I ever got round to writing any. I did add a stipulation that
a single character could only carry 4 artifacts at any one time although any number of epic
items. The distinction being that epic items could be disjoined and were inneffective within
Anti-magic Shells/Fields, whereas Artifacts

Most of the monsters that would carry items in the Epic Bestiary wield 4 Artifacts. I think
Alabaster is the only one to break that rule (he carries 6) but his weapons are a bit weaker
because of it.
____________________________________
eduar
hi

if I'm a god of creation and want create an artifact, how do I do that?

what is the cost of artifacts?

I know that in DMG say that the art of create artifacts is lost and only the gods can perform
that task, but now I'm a god and want create artifacts
____________________________________
Upper_Krust
Quote:

Originally Posted by eduar

Hi
Howdy eduar mate!

Quote:
if I'm a god of creation and want create an artifact, how do I do that?

what is the cost of artifacts?

I know that in DMG say that the art of create artifacts is lost and only the gods can perform
that task, but now I'm a god and want create artifacts
Creating artifacts would cost quintessence. Its been that long ago that I have forgotten the
relationship between Quintessence (QP) and Experience (EXP). Is it 1:1...my memory is
hitting a blank. If no one can remember I'll try and dig out my notes on it over the
weekend.
____________________________________
eduar
hi

for example an artifact that reproduce an epic spell

like the soul drinker for ELH but with hellball instead of energy drain

the base price would be

10(epic spell) * caster level * 2000 + 200(XP for hellball) * 100

an example of a bastard sword +10 of hellball with caster level 30

10 * 30 * 2000 * 2 + (for hellball) 1200000

200 * 100 * 5 (for the XP cost of the hellball) 100000
10 * 10 * 20000 (+10) 2000000

base price 3,300,335 GP

cost to create: 1,600,000 GP and 62000 XP
____________________________________
Dante & Vergil
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

'Rules for Artifacts'. I'm not sure I ever got round to writing any. I did add a stipulation that
a single character could only carry 4 artifacts at any one time although any number of epic
items. The distinction being that epic items could be disjoined and were inneffective within
Anti-magic Shells/Fields, whereas Artifacts

Most of the monsters that would carry items in the Epic Bestiary wield 4 Artifacts. I think
Alabaster is the only one to break that rule (he carries 6) but his weapons are a bit weaker
because of it.
The only reason I ask is because I heard on this board that artifacts can have
Divine/Cosmic/Transidental/Omnific abilities, and I don't know what those would cost to add
on to artifacts.
____________________________________
Yqatuba
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil
The only reason I ask is because I heard on this board that artifacts can have
Divine/Cosmic/Transidental/Omnific abilities, and I don't know what those would cost to add
on to artifacts.
IIRC its +6/+22/+144/+1200 respectively
____________________________________
Belzamus
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yqatuba

IIRC its +6/+22/+144/+1200 respectively
Close, but not quite.

+6/+36/+216/+1200 (1272 if you want to be technical).

The logic is that a feat is 1/6th of a divine ability (see Cryptomnesia among other things),
and feat is worth +1 on a weapon (see Mighty Cleaving), therefore it proceeds that a divine
ability on a weapon is +6, and since a cosmic ability is worth six divine abilities, those cost
+36 on a weapon, etc.

It works out to being the same ECL in the end, though you could make a case for lowering
the + cost since it makes the ability situational (in that you need to have the weapon in
your possession) instead of being innate to the character.
____________________________________
Yqatuba
How many extra divine slots does a diety get if it gives up artifact(s) I thought it was equal
to divine rank but not sure
____________________________________
Yqatuba
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Close, but not quite.

+6/+36/+216/+1200 (1272 if you want to be technical).

The logic is that a feat is 1/6th of a divine ability (see Cryptomnesia among other things),
and feat is worth +1 on a weapon (see Mighty Cleaving), therefore it proceeds that a divine
ability on a weapon is +6, and since a cosmic ability is worth six divine abilities, those cost
+36 on a weapon, etc.

It works out to being the same ECL in the end, though you could make a case for lowering
the + cost since it makes the ability situational (in that you need to have the weapon in
your possession) instead of being innate to the character.
Transcendental is acutally +200 (should be 216 i.e 6x36 but he rounded I guess)
____________________________________
paradox42
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yqatuba

Transcendental is acutally +200 (should be 216 i.e 6x36 but he rounded I guess)
That's exactly what he did, yes. Technically Belzamus is correct if you want to use the best
math for balancing things at the highest levels- UK, however, doesn't like things to get too
complex, so he rounded off as you said. Each DM can decide for himself/herself exactly how
to handle it- I, for example, have no problem with complexity (or using calculators to figure
out big numbers) so I used +216. That number, incidentally, is of course what leads to
1272 in Belzamus's post (216x6 = 1272).

Quote:

Originally Posted by eduar

hi

for example an artifact that reproduce an epic spell

like the soul drinker for ELH but with hellball instead of energy drain

the base price would be

10(epic spell) * caster level * 2000 + 200(XP for hellball) * 100

an example of a bastard sword +10 of hellball with caster level 30

10 * 30 * 2000 * 2 + (for hellball) 1200000

200 * 100 * 5 (for the XP cost of the hellball) 100000
10 * 10 * 20000 (+10) 2000000

base price 3,300,335 GP

cost to create: 1,600,000 GP and 62000 XP
I had rules in my game for exactly this situation, putting an Epic spell in an item- I'm not
sure ever posted them here but if I did it was years ago (so a very old thread). I don't have
them handy right this second, so I'll see what I can do when I get home.

It's worth noting, however, that two very important things with Epic spells are (A) they
have no caster level by definition, so caster-level-based costing doesn't work fairly, and (B)
they're customizable, even to the point of getting a spell's Spellcraft cost down to
ridiculously low numbers, using mitigating factors. This has to be taken into account if you
allow them in items.
____________________________________
paradox42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yqatuba
How many extra divine slots does a diety get if it gives up artifact(s) I thought it was equal
to divine rank but not sure
Oops, forgot to respond to this above... this was never officially part of a book, that I can
recall, because deities made using the IH rules weren't supposed to be able to give up
artifacts. But unofficially, most people (including UK for weirdo beings like Algol) used the
rule that giving up one artifact would grant additional slots equal to DR, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox42
I had rules in my game for exactly this situation, putting an Epic spell in an item- I'm not
sure ever posted them here but if I did it was years ago (so a very old thread). I don't have
them handy right this second, so I'll see what I can do when I get home.
Update: my Google-fu is strong. I forgot it was actually posted on the Internet at one point,
but quickly found it once I remembered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by My Artifact Rules
The cost of an Epic spell or power is based on the Spellcraft (or Psicraft) check necessary to
cast/manifest it; each daily use costs its "spell category base price" (for instance, for a use-
activated spell with 50 charges, 1000 gp) the DC. This cost is not modified by the
artifact's caster level (since Epic spells and powers do not have level-dependent variables),
but it is modified by mitigating factors of casting/manifesting the spell/power. An XP cost
contributes a further 5 gp/XP just like normal spells and powers do. If the spell or power
requires multiple casters, then add the spell slots contributed times the artifact's caster
level (for instance, an epic spell requiring four spellcasters to each contribute a 7th-level
spell slot would add cost equivalent to a 28th-level spell at the artifact's caster level- even if
that caster level is lower than 56th). Finally, backlash damage costs an additional base price
the number of damage dice dealt.
Thus, an artifact containing the Hellball Epic spell (50 charges and use-activated, base price
1000 gp) costs 102000 gp per daily use of Hellball it allows (Spellcraft DC of 90 = 90000
gp, 400 XP cost = 2000 gp, 10d6 backlash damage = 10000 gp). Note that the item's
caster level is irrelevant to this ability's cost, though it must be at least 21st since it is a
Major Artifact. Also, this item loses its ability to cast Hellball for the year after 50 uses,
though it only allows one charge per 102000 gp in the base price to be used per day (and
will keep any other abilities it has after the Hellball charges are used up, and will regain the
50 Hellball charges one year after the first one was used). A caster-level 30 artifact
containing the Verdigris Tsunami Epic spell (standard use-activation, no charge limit, base
price 2000 gp) costs 5430000 gp per daily use of the spell (Spellcraft DC 170 = 340000 gp,
10000 XP cost = 50000 gp, 14 casters contributing 6th-level slots = 5040000 gp [14
casters 6 levels 30 caster levels 2000 gp base price]). Finally, a single-use artifact
(base price 100 gp) containing the Vengeful Gaze of God Epic spell has a base price of
61900 gp (Spellcraft DC 419 = 41900 gp, 200d6 backlash damage = 20000 gp). It is
destroyed after being used, though whatever it hits is likely to be as well given the 305d6
damage it takes.
Further explanation of one above point; I postulated that a Major Artifact that carried
charges (like a Staff) could in fact run out of charges, but if it did so that would not destroy
the item (a contrast to standard rules for Staves and charged items) since Major Artifacts by
definition have very specific and hard-to-fulfill conditions for destruction. A charged Major
Artifact, therefore, automatically recharged itself to a full 50 charges exactly one year after
the first charge was used.

Single-use artifacts, of course, by definition, destroy themselves when used, like normal
single-use items do. Such artifacts are designed from the start to be easy to destroy, but
very few beings would ever bother making them due to the high cost in time and resources
spent on crafting (after all, why bother when the actual spell is usually quicker and easier to
cast?).
____________________________________
Belzamus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yqatuba
How many extra divine slots does a diety get if it gives up artifact(s) I thought it was equal
to divine rank but not sure
This took me a while to figure out way back (for some reason, it seems blindingly obvious
now) but it's really pretty simple.

Think of it like this: a deity (or any character, really) has a set portion of their ECL (1/3 if
you're going by the book) allotted for equipment, conventionally in the form of 4 artifacts.

So, if the deity chooses to give up an artifact for additional power (doesn't have to be divine
abilities; could be increased divine bonus, increased stats, whatever) he gains a pool equal
to 1/12 of his total ECL (1/3 (equipment ECL) x 1/4 (1 out of 4 artifacts) to play around
with.

This conversion has led me, when statting up deities, to just give them all the divine
abilities I feel are appropriate right off the bat, ignoring the granted slots from their
template, and then, when finished, tally up the total ECL of the abilities and subtract the
excess from their equipment ECL before working on their equipment.
Hopefully, that all makes sense. And sorry for the 200/216 mistake above. The difference is
a bit negligible anyway, which I imagine was Upper_Krust's logic.
____________________________________
Grum_l
Hey!

I have a 3.5 Edition question regarding the ECL of immortals, artifacts and their power.

An immortal can have up to 4 artifacts/epic items. For weapons, for example, ECL / 2.8 is
the power an artifact could have.

A sample ECL 100 / 2.8 is about +36. Does it mean that one item (in this case a weapon) is
so powerful or all 4 artifacts together (if it were 4 weapons)?

I'm confused, because in some posts it is said that the "+36" needs to be divided by four to
have the maximum power of an item and in some others "+36" would be for every artifact.
In Ascension the creatures seem to use the second version ("+36" for every item).
However, somewhere U_K also wrote that it is divided by four... Hmm... Various NPC
immortals, such as in the "Post your gods!" thread here, also seem to be built with the
Ascension method.
____________________________________
Upper_Krust
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grum_l

Hey!
Ahoy there Grum_I!

Quote:

I have a 3.5 Edition question regarding the ECL of immortals, artifacts and their power.
Fire away!

Quote:

An immortal can have up to 4 artifacts/epic items. For weapons, for example, ECL / 2.8 is
the power an artifact could have.

A sample ECL 100 / 2.8 is about +36. Does it mean that one item (in this case a weapon) is
so powerful or all 4 artifacts together (if it were 4 weapons)?

I'm confused, because in some posts it is said that the "+36" needs to be divided by four to
have the maximum power of an item and in some others "+36" would be for every artifact.
In Ascension the creatures seem to use the second version ("+36" for every item).
However, somewhere U_K also wrote that it is divided by four... Hmm... Various NPC
immortals, such as in the "Post your gods!" thread here, also seem to be built with the
Ascension method.
Can you post two examples where you are seeing conflicting results?

As far as I know the sidebar in the Anakim entry (from the bestiary) describes this as simply
as possible.
Divide ECL by 2.8 (or by 2 depending on item type) and that is the '+' rating of a single one
of your four allowed artifacts.
____________________________________
Grum_l
Hi U_K!

Thanks for the quick reply!

I found a little mistake of mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grum_l
In Ascension the creatures seem to use the second version ("+36" for every item).
I meant the Epic Bestiary Volume One here and not Ascension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Can you post two examples where you are seeing conflicting results?
A "divide-by-four" example is from here:

Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

ECL 154 (Powerful Intermediate deity or relatively weak Greater god)

60 million, divided by 10,000 = 6000.

6000 squared = 77.

Therefore since we use half the enhancement bonus of an item (which uses bonus squared
x 10,000) from ECL, reverse engineered we double it to find the level whereupon the item is
appropriate.

77 x 2 = 154.

Equipment is 1/3 ECL. Therefore the artifacts would total ECL +51. Which is about ECL +13
per artifact.
Another example, I think, is from above:

Artifact rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belzamus

(1/3 (equipment ECL) x 1/4 (1 out of 4 artifacts))

A quick "divide-not-by-four" example is maybe this one:

Post your gods!

This is the method you usually used in the Bestiary, for example. Surtur also would be an
example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upper_Krust
As far as I know the sidebar in the Anakim entry (from the bestiary) describes this as simply
as possible.
Ehmm... I see no sidebar in my version of the Epic Bestiary Volume One. I have v.1.5.

The spiked chain the Anakim uses also seems more powerful. Like almost two artifact slots
used for one item. So, its not the common method from the Bestiary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Divide ECL by 2.8 (or by 2 depending on item type) and that is the '+' rating of a single one
of your four allowed artifacts.
Okay. Thanks! Most of the monsters and NPCs using your books, seem to use these rules.

Some other comments, as shown above, confuse(d) me though. (There were some more
comments, I think, but I don't find them quickly.)
____________________________________
Upper_Krust
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grum_l

Hi U_K!
Ahoy there!

Quote:

Thanks for the quick reply!

Some days you get lucky, some you don't.

Quote:
A "divide-by-four" example is from here:

Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

Another example, I think, is from above:

Artifact rules.
Take rulebook text over forum text in almost all cases.

Quote:
A quick "divide-not-by-four" example is maybe this one:

Post your gods!

This is the method you usually used in the Bestiary, for example. Surtur also would be an
example.
I think I see the problem now.

Wealth comprises 1/3rd of ECL when applied.

So a monster with no wealth needs to have its ECL increased by 50%, THEN divide by 2.8
(or 2) to get the item bonus of each of its 4 artifacts.

Quote:

Ehmm... I see no sidebar in my version of the Epic Bestiary Volume One. I have v.1.5.
By sidebar I mean the boxed text in the bottom right hand corner of the Anakim's two-page
entry.

If that not there, then it must only be in the print version. I don't remember making too
many changes to the print version other than the header font, but that might be one of
them.

Quote:

The spiked chain the Anakim uses also seems more powerful. Like almost two artifact slots
used for one item. So, its not the common method from the Bestiary.
ECL 65 divided by 2.8 = +23 = +12 large adamantine everdancing, ghost touch, unholy
spiked chain.

Quote:

Okay. Thanks! Most of the monsters and NPCs using your books, seem to use these rules.
Hope I was able to help a little.

Quote:

Some other comments, as shown above, confuse(d) me though. (There were some more
comments, I think, but I don't find them quickly.)
Everything about 3E confuses me now.
____________________________________
Alzrius
Christian, I don't suppose these questions are a hint that we'll be seeing another Quirin
Mythology soon?
____________________________________
Grum_l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Upper_Krust
Some days you get lucky, some you don't.
Lucky me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Take rulebook text over forum text in almost all cases.
Okay. Yes. However, the statted rulebook stuff was a bit vague here for me. That's why I
looked for more info in forums in the past and now again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upper_Krust
I think I see the problem now.

Wealth comprises 1/3rd of ECL when applied.

So a monster with no wealth needs to have its ECL increased by 50%, THEN divide by 2.8
(or 2) to get the item bonus of each of its 4 artifacts.
I understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

By sidebar I mean the boxed text in the bottom right hand corner of the Anakim's two-page
entry.

If that not there, then it must only be in the print version. I don't remember making too
many changes to the print version other than the header font, but that might be one of
them.
There is nothing like this in my pdf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upper_Krust
ECL 65 divided by 2.8 = +23 = +12 large adamantine everdancing, ghost touch, unholy
spiked chain.
In my pdf the Anakim is ECL 57 and carries a +17 large adamantine everdancing, ghost
touch, unholy power spiked chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upper_Krust
Hope I was able to help a little.
Yes, it helped! Thanks!

Alabaster is an example of a being who wields more than 4 artifacts, because overall the 6
items are as powerful as 4 items. Is the other way possible too, meaning to use just 2
artifacts that are as powerful as 4 things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Everything about 3E confuses me now.

____________________________________
Grum_l
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alzrius

Christian, I don't suppose these questions are a hint that we'll be seeing another Quirin
Mythology soon?
Hello Alzrius!
I needed that info for my epic/immortal group... ^^

I have no time to create new pdfs. Since some years. And I won't have time for this in the
next years as well, I think. I would like to do it and I will do it again.

Since/until then, I (and my players) just use and enjoy the existing 3.0/3.5 Edition epic
material of U_K and some other designers (such as GMC , WotC,...). During play new
things/ideas come to our minds, but that won't find its way to published material soon...

Despite U_K needs an eternity for completing all the things, I appreciate and love any little
epic design he finishes. Even if its 4E, which I never checked out and won't play. There was
and still is (I think) definitely not much material for high level play... So, I can understand
the wish for more.
____________________________________
Upper_Krust
Hey there Grum_l!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grum_l

Lucky me.
Probably helped with you being in a time zone comparable to my own.

Quote:
Okay. Yes. However, the statted rulebook stuff was a bit vague here for me. That's why I
looked for more info in forums in the past and now again.
If you ever need any help with my stuff you know where to find me mate.

...and I'll try and remember if its about 3E.

Quote:

There is nothing like this in my pdf.

Ooops.

Quote:
In my pdf the Anakim is ECL 57 and carries a +17 large adamantine everdancing, ghost
touch, unholy power spiked chain.
I guess I did change a few things for the print version then.

Quote:

Yes, it helped! Thanks!

Quote:

Alabaster is an example of a being who wields more than 4 artifacts, because overall the 6
items are as powerful as 4 items. Is the other way possible too, meaning to use just 2
artifacts that are as powerful as 4 things?
Not without unbalancing the game.

That said, an immortal could always wield artifacts too powerful for itself to control. But like
mortals with artifacts, these immortals would possibly be dominated by the artifact (or
some other affliction).
____________________________________