Trial Transcript Complete PDF

r
r
r
COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOURTH APPELLATE DISTRICT
r DIVISION ONE
r THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
)
)
FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY
HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS,
r PLAINTIFF AND
RESPONDENT,
)
)
)
)
JUDGE
COURT OF APPEAL
NO. D060019
r vs.
FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ,
)
)
) SUPERIOR COURT
r DEFENDANT AND
APPELLANT.
)
)
)
)
NO. SCD230596
r
r
REPORTER'S APPEAL TRANSCRIPT
VOLUME 0
r MASTER INDEX
r APPEARANCES:
r FOR THE PLAINTIFF KAMALA D. HARRIS

AND RESPONDENT: ATTORNEY GENERAL
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
110 WEST A STREET, SUITE 1100
r SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92101
IN PROPRIA PERSONA
r
FOR THE DEFENDANT
AND APPELLANT:
r
r
r REPORTED BY: PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO. 6263
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
r
r
r IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO
r DEPARTMENT 48 HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDGE

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
)
)
CASE NO. SCD230596
r PLAINTIFF,
)
)
)
D.A. NO. ACV800
r vs.
)
)
)
r ______________________________)
DEFENDANT .
)
)
r REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
r
MARCH 8, 2011
r APPEARANCES :
FOR THE PEOPLE: BONNIE M. DUMANIS
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: KRISTIAN P. TROCHA
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r 330 WEST BROADWAY, SUITE 750

SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92101
r FOR THE DEFENDANT: HULLINGER & SPEREDELOZZI

RETAINED COUNSEL
BY: MATTHEW J. SPEREDELOZZI
5752 OBERLIN DRIVE, SUITE 106
r
r
r
r
r CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
r PEOPLE V. DOMINGUEZ
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r MELITON PUENTE
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 219 6
r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA
237
245
6
6
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 248 6
r MAGDALENA LOPEZ

269
281
6
6
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

JESSICA LOPEZ
283 6
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
285
315
6
r
7
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 337 7

EDUARDO PUENTE
344 7

346
358
7
7
r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

JOSUE GUTIERREZ
364 7

366
385
7
7
r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 403 7
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r HESNEYDA BUENDIA

NATALIE ELIAS
412 7

414
423
7
7

MARLA QUINTANILLA
430 7

437
465
7
7

SAMUEL EULER
472 7

477
490
7
7
r JOHN GONZALEZ

496
520
7
7

JULIO RAMIREZ
524 7

541
559
8
8
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r KELVIN LUJAN
r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 582 8
r MICHAEL WEAVER

GLENNYS BERUMEN (401)
619 8
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 600 8

605
608
8
8

FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA
610
611
8
8
r FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

GLENNYS BERUMEN
614 8

626
655
8
8

691
692 8
8
r
r
r
r
r
r
CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
PEOPLE V. DOMINGUEZ
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r CHAD CRENSHAW

706
707
8
8
r MARK LUCCHESI

JENNIFER SANDERS
722 8

728
771
8
8

RAUL AGUILAR
779 8
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 796 9
r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
806
839
9
9
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

849
857 9
9
r MARY JANE FLOWERS

r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
r
PAGE VOL
ANGELICA NAVARRO-MORAN

898
906
9
9
r SHAWN MONTPETIT

986
1099
10
10

1119
1123
10
10
r ANDRES L.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
1340
1343
11
11

SERGEANT JOSEPH HOWIE - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
1345 11

1354
1361
13
13
r SIMON LOPEZ - PEOPLE'S WITNESS

r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r OTHON MENA, M.D. - PEOPLE'S WITNESS


1419
1421
13
13
r DETECTIVE GREG PINARELLI - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
r
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1428 13
r DETECTIVE MICHAEL LAMBERT - PEOPLE'S WITNESS


1470
1502
13
13

FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. TROCHA
1508
1509
13
13
r TANYA L. DULANEY - PEOPLE'S WITNESS

1511
1519
13
13

1521
1522
13
13
r FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. TROCHA

FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
1524
1526
13
13
r
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA - PEOPLE'S WITNESS

r DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. TROCHA

1673
1735
14
14
r CROSS (RESUMED) BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1766 15

1793
1809
15
15

OFFICER TERRANCE OH - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
1812 15

CAROL MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS
1580 14
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA
1583
1594
14
14
r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1633 14
r
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1637 14
FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1638 14
r ANTRIEL MATTHEWS - DEFENSE WITNESS

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1645 14

1651
1658
14
14
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1659 14
r CARLOS E. ALVARA - DEFENSE WITNESS

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1671 14
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r LUIS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA - DEFENSE WITNESS


ANTHONY J. EWING - DEFENSE WITNESS
1826 15

1845
1847
15
15
r CARLOS RIOS - DEFENSE WITNESS

1850
1865
15
15
r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA
1870
1874
15
15
r FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

ANA MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS
1876 15

1893
1896
15
15

RONALD MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS
1897 15

1898
1910
15
15

1911
1912
15
15
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r ALEXIS LOPEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS


JOSUE GUTIERREZ - DEFENSE WITNESS (RECALLED)
1921 15

FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. TROCHA
1944
1958
15
15
r RANDY BARNES-DE LEON - DEFENSE WITNESS


1964
1975
15
15

FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
1978
1982
15
15
r EVELYN SOTO - DEFENSE WITNESS

1984 15
r
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1986 15

1992
1992
15
15
r CHRISTIAN JESUS AVITA

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 2009

2019
16
16
r
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 2020 16
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r SIRIA FORD

2041
2081
16
16

2088
2092
16
16
r FRANCISCO SANDOVAL

2110
2126
16
16

2140
2141
16
16
r VICTOR DOMINGUEZ
r DIANA BANUELOS

2169
2196
16
16

2199
2201
16
16
r SUSAN ELAINE MERCURIO

2203 16
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
r LARRY ALTON THOMPSON

PAGE
2216
VOL
16

2222
2227
16
16
r
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 2229 16
CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ

2231
2261
16
17

2286
2290
17
17
r ROGER VINCENT MILLER, PH.D.


2399
2409
17
17
r MARTHA GASCA
FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 2411 17
rl FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 2419 17
EVELYN ESTEPHANIA QUINTERO
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 2424

2427
17
17
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r SHAWN MONTPETIT

FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ
2435 17

2437
2474
17
17

JANA BEARD
2558 18

2585
2589
18
18
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r RAUL AGUILAR

806
839
9
9

849
857
9
9
r CARLOS E. ALVARA - DEFENSE WITNESS

1668
1671
14
14


2009
2019
16
16
r
DIANA BANUELOS

2169
2196
16
16

2199
2201
16
16
r
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r RANDY BARNES-DE LEON - DEFENSE WITNESS

1964
1975
15
15
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1978

1982
15
15
r
JANA BEARD

2585
2589
18
18
r GLENNYS BERUMEN (401)
r
L
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 605 8
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 608 8
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 610

611
8
8
r
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 614 8
r GLENNYS BERUMEN

655
683
8
8

691
692
8
8
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r NATALIE ELIAS

423
429
7
7

SAMUEL EULER
430 7

ANTHONY J. EWING - DEFENSE WITNESS
490 7

1845
1847
15
15
r MARY JANE FLOWERS

r SIRIA FORD

2041
2081
16
16

2088
2092
16
16
r
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA- PEOPLE'S WITNESS

r DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. TROCHA

1673
1735
14
14
r CROSS (RESUMED) BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1766 15

1793
1809
15
15

MARTHA GASCA
1812 15
r FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI
2411
2419
17
17
r JOHN GONZALEZ

JOSUE GUTIERREZ
524 7

366
385
7
7

403
407
7
7
r JOSUE GUTIERREZ - DEFENSE WITNESS (RECALLED)

r FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. TROCHA 1958 15
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r SERGEANT JOSEPH HOWIE - PEOPLE'S WITNESS


1361
1365
13
13
r ANDRES L.

1340
1343
11
11

DETECTIVE MICHAEL LAMBERT - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
1345 11

1429
1470
13
13

FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. TROCHA
1508
1509
13
13
r ALEXIS LOPEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS


JESSICA LOPEZ
1921 15

315
337
7
7
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r MAGDALENA LOPEZ

269
281
6
6
r SIMON LOPEZ - PEOPLE'S WITNESS


MARK LUCCHESI
1371 13

710
722
8
8
r KELVIN LUJAN
r ANA MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS

1893
1896
15
15
r
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r CAROL MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS

p:m]
l
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1633 14
r. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1637 14

FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1638 14
r CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ

2231
2261
16
17

2286
2290
17
17
r RONALD MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS


1911
1912
15
15
r ANTRIEL MATTHEWS - DEFENSE WITNESS


1651
1658
14
14
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r OTHON MENA, M.D. - PEOPLE'S WITNESS


1419
1421
13
13

r ROGER VINCENT MILLER, PH.D.


2347
2399
17
17

SHAWN MONTPETIT
2409 17

986
1099
10
10

1119
1123
10
10
r
I
SHAWN MONTPETIT
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r ANGELICA NAVARRO-MORAN

898
906
9
9
r
r DETECTIVE GREG PINARELLI - PEOPLE'S WITNESS


EDUARDO PUENTE
1428 13

346
358
7
7
r MELITON PUENTE

237
245
6
6

LUIS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA - DEFENSE WITNESS
248 6
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL
r MARLA QUINTANILLA

465
472
7
7
r EVELYN ESTEPHANIA QUINTERO

2424
2427
17
17
r JULIO RAMIREZ

559
565
8
8

CARLOS RIOS - DEFENSE WITNESS
566 8

1865
1870
15
15

1874
1876
15
15
r JENNIFER SANDERS

771
779
8
8
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE VOL

2126
2140
16
16

EVELYN SOTO - DEFENSE WITNESS
2141 16

1986
1992
15
15

LARRY ALTON THOMPSON
1992 15

2216
2222
16
16

2228
2229
16
16
r MICHAEL WEAVER
r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r PEOPLE v. DOMINGUEZ
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
DESCRIPTION PAGE
- -- VOL
-
i'
r PEOPLE'S 1 PHOTO BOARD WITH AERIAL VIEW OF 221 6
THE PARK
~ 6
PEOPLE'S 2 PHOTO BOARD WITH AERIAL VIEW OF 222
l THE PARK
r DEFENSE
DEFENSE y
z PHOTOGRAPH OF VIEW OF PARK
HANDWRITTEN LETTER
344
400
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 240 DVD/CD INTERVIEW WITH MS.

QUINTANILLA
459 7
r PEOPLE'S 240-A
PEOPLE'S 3
TRANSCRIPT OF DVD/CD INTERVIEW
WITH MS. QUINTANILLA
AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK

459
501
7
7
r
\ PEOPLE'S 37 PHOTOGRAPH OF HOUSE AND CAR 502 7
r PEOPLE'S 38
PEOPLE'S 39
PHOTOGRAPH OF HOUSE AND CARS
PHOTOGRAPH OF CAMRY
503
503
7
r PEOPLE'S 40
PEOPLE'S 41
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND CAMRY
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND CAR
504
504
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 42
PEOPLE'S 43
PHOTOGRAPH OF EL CAMINO
PHOTOGRAPH OF SENTRA
504
505
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 44 PHOTOGRAPH OF FRANKLIN 505 7
r
PEOPLE'S 45 PHOTOGRAPH OF FRANKLIN 506 7
PEOPLE'S 46 PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY 506 7
r PEOPLE'S 47
PEOPLE'S 48
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY WITH CAR
506
507
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 49
PEOPLE'S 50
507
507
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 51 PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE OF CAR 508 7
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE VOL
- ---
r
(:
PEOPLE'S 52 PHOTOGRAPH OF PASSENGER SIDE OF
CAR
509 7
r PEOPLE'S 53 PHOTOGRAPH OF DRIVER'S SIDE OF

CAMRY
510 7
r PEOPLE'S 54
PEOPLE'S 55
PHOTOGRAPH OF DRIVER'S SIDE OF
CAMRY
510
510
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 56
EL CAMINO
PHOTOGRAPH OF PASSENGER SIDE OF 510 7
r PEOPLE'S 57
CAR
PHOTOGRAPH OF CAR 511 7
r PEOPLE'S 58
PEOPLE'S 59
PHOTOGRAPH OF PASSENGER SIDE OF
511
512
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 60
SENTRA
CAR
512 7

CAR
512 7
r
( PEOPLE'S 62 PHOTOGRAPH OF DRIVER'S SIDE OF 513 7
SENTRA
r PEOPLE'S 63
PEOPLE'S 64
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND MAXIMA
513
514
7
7
r PEOPLE'S 65
MAXIMA
PHOTOGRAPH OF REAR SHOT OF
PASSENGER SIDE OF CAR
514 7
r PEOPLE'S 66 PHOTOGRAPH OF BACK OF CAR 519 7
r PEOPLE'S 21
DEFENSE JJ
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, CAR AND BEER
TRANSCRIPT
598
604
8
8
r DEFENSE KK AUDIO RECORDING 604 8
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
- - -VOL
-
r PEOPLE'S 22 PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING TOWARD
BUDWEISER BOX
701 8
r PEOPLE'S 17 PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MAXIMA LOOKING

SOUTHBOUND
702 8
r PEOPLE'S 18
PEOPLE'S 19
PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE VIEW OF MAXIMA 702
PHOTOGRAPH OF MAXIMA FROM THE REAR 703
8
8
r PEOPLE'S 20
OF THE ALLEY
PHOTOGRAPH OF REAR VIEW OF MAXIMA 704 8
r PEOPLE'S 23
PEOPLE'S 71
PHOTOGRAPH OF A CASE OF BUDWEISER
PHOTOGRAPH OF WESTWARD VIEW ON
FRANKLIN
704
713
8
8
r PEOPLE'S 72 PHOTOGRAPH OF FRONT VIEW OF

RESIDENCE
713 8
r PEOPLE'S 73 PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING SOUTH FROM

DIRT ALLEY
714 8
r PEOPLE'S 74
PEOPLE'S 75
PHOTOGRAPH OF BUENDIA BACKYARD
PHOTOGRAPH OF BACKYARD AND ALLEY
714
715
8
8
r PEOPLE'S 76 PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE YARD OF

BUENDIA HOUSE
715 8
r PEOPLE'S 77
PEOPLE'S 78
PHOTOGRAPH OF CLOSER VIEW OF
BACKYARD CORNER
716 8
r
PHOTOGRAPH OF T-SHIRT 716 8
PEOPLE'S 79 PHOTOGRAPH OF T SHIRT 716 8
r PEOPLE'S 80
PEOPLE'S 81
PHOTOGRAPH OF T SHIRT
PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE YARD AND
717
718
8
8
r PEOPLE'S 82
WOODEN PLANK
PHOTOGRAPH OF BLOODSTAINS ON
WOODEN PLANK
719 8
r PEOPLE'S 83 PHOTOGRAPH OF INFLATABLE POOL 720 8
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
l
t
EXHIBIT NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
- - -VOL
-
r PEOPLE'S 84 PHOTOGRAPH OF BLOODSTAIN ON
INFLATABLE POOL
720 8
r PEOPLE'S 85
PEOPLE'S 155
PHOTOGRAPH OF T-SHIRT
T-SHIRT
720
721
8
8
r PEOPLE'S 241 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK 736 8
r PEOPLE'S 4
PEOPLE'S 5
PHOTOGRAPH OF /THE NORTHWEST
CORNER SECTION OF THE PARK
PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTING PLACARDS 3,
738
741
8
r PEOPLE'S 6
4, 5, 6 AND 7
4 I 5, 6 AND 7
742 8
r PEOPLE'S 7 PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEMS 1 AND 2 743 8
r PEOPLE'S 8
PEOPLE'S 9
PHOTOGRAPH OF A BREAK IN THE
FENCE
PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEM 1
743
744
8
r PEOPLE'S 10 PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEM 2, BASEBALL

HAT
745 8
r PEOPLE'S 158
PEOPLE'S 11
HAT
PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 3 AND
CLOTHING
745
746
8
8
r
!\ PEOPLE'S 12 PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 4 AND 746 8
SHOE AND SOCK
r PEOPLE'S 13 PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 5 AND

SHOE AND SOCK
747 8

REDDISH STAIN
747 8
r
PEOPLE'S 17 PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 7 AND 747 8
TWO SHIRTS
r PLACARD NO. 10
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE VOL
- ---
r PEOPLE'S 159 ITEM 8 751 8
r PEOPLE'S 24
PEOPLE'S 160
PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 9
BEER BOTTLE
752
752
8
r
(
PEOPLE'S 25 PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 10 AND
BEER BOTTLE
755 8
r PEOPLE'S 161
PEOPLE'S 26
BEER BOTTLE
756
756
8
8

BEER CAN
757 8
r
PEOPLE'S 142 BEER CAN 757 8
BEER CAN

VOMIT
758 8

BEER CAN
758 8
r PEOPLE'S 206
PEOPLE'S 31
BEER CAN
PHOTOGRAPH OF RESIDENCE ON
FRANKLIN
758
759
8
8
r PEOPLE'S 32 PHOTOGRAPH OF OPENING OF GATE 760 8
r PEOPLE'S 33
PEOPLE'S 34
PHOTOGRAPH OF GATE
PLACARD NO. 17 AND GLOVES
761
761
8
8

GLOVE
762 8
i PEOPLE'S 36 PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 17 AND

GLOVE
762 8
r PEOPLE'S 67 PHOTOGRAPH OF INTERIOR OF CAMRY 763 8
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
- - -VOL
-
r PEOPLE'S 92 PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET FROM RIGHT
AXILLA
766 8

THIGH
766 8
r PEOPLE'S 94 PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET FROM LOWER

BACK
766 8
r PEOPLE'S 95
PEOPLE'S 90
PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET FROM LEFT
BUTTOCK
PHOTOGRAPH OF WHITE T-SHIRT
766
767
8
r PEOPLE'S 91 PHOTOGRAPH OF BACK OF WHITE

T-SHIRT
768 8
r PEOPLE'S 152
PEOPLE'S 242
WHITE T-SHIRT
SIX-PACK LINEUP
768
807
8
9
r PEOPLE'S 209
PEOPLE'S 210
ENVELOPE CONTAINING BULLET

871
871
9
9
r PEOPLE'S 211 ENVELOPE CONTAINING BULLET 871 9
r PEOPLE'S 212
PEOPLE'S 151
GRAY SWEATSHIRT
872
940
9
9
r PEOPLE'S 243
DEFENSE HH
PAGES FROM ANALYTICAL RECORD
DNA POWERPOINT PRESENTATION
954
987
9
10
r DEFENSE RR
DEFENSE DD
BUTCHER PAPER
LABORATORY DNA REQUEST FORM
1002 10
1018 10
r DEFENSE EE
DEFENSE p
REPORT OF ANALYSIS
REQUEST FOR DNA ANALYSIS
1019 10
1022 10
r DEFENSE 0 COMMUNICATION LOG 1023 10
r DEFENSE L PHOTO OF LEFT GLOVE TAKEN

10/13/2008
1025 10
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
- - -VOL
-
r DEFENSE K PHOTO OF RIGHT GLOVE TAKEN
10/13/2008
1026 10
r DEFENSE M PHOTO OF RIGHT GLOVE TAKEN

1/24/11
1031 10
r DEFENSE N
DEFENSE X
PHOTO OF LEFT GLOVE TAKEN
1/24/11
ELECTROPHEROGRAMS OF ITEMS 16-3
1031 10
1076 10
r PEOPLE'S 231
AND 17-3
GROUP PHOTOGRAPH 1145 11
r. PEOPLE'S 263 GROUP PHOTOGRAPH 1145 11
PEOPLE'S 232 GROUP PHOTOGRAPH 1173 11
r PEOPLE'S 244 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK 1182 11
r PEOPLE'S 247
PEOPLE'S .261
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
PHOTOGRAPH OF BATHROOMS IN PARK
1183 11
1184 11
r PEOPLE'S 246 PHOTOGRAPH OF PICNIC BENCHES IN

PARK
1185 11
r PEOPLE'S 245
PEOPLE'S 248
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
PHOTOGRAPH OF SAL CAMPOS
1190 11
1199 11
r PEOPLE'S 249 PHOTOGRAPH OF AREA OF SHOOTING

IN PARK
1200 11
r
PEOPLE'S 250 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK 1201 11
PEOPLE'S 251 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND TREES AND 1203 11
FENCE
r PEOPLE'S 252 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND FENCE 1204 11
r PEOPLE'S 253
PEOPLE'S 254
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND TREES AND
FENCE
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
1204 11
1205 11
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
- -- VOL
-
r PEOPLE'S 255 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK FROM NORTH,

LOOKING DOWN FRANKLIN
1206 11
r PEOPLE'S 256
PEOPLE'S 257
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, LOOKING NORTH
1206 11
1206 11
r PEOPLE'S 258
PEOPLE'S 259
PHOTOGRAPH OF LIGHTS
1207 11
1207 11
r PEOPLE'S 260 PHOTOGRAPH OF BATHROOMS IN PARK 1208 11
r PEOPLE'S 261
PEOPLE'S 262
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND
STREETLIGHTS
1209 11
1219 11
r PEOPLE'S 264 AUDIO CD OF POLICE INTERVIEW 1220 11

PEOPLE'S 264A TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CD OF POLICE 1220 11
r_ INTERVIEW
DEFENSE NN TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH 1232 11
r DEFENSE pp
ANDRES L.
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH 1233 11
r DEFENSE MM
ANDRES L.
AUDIOTAPED INTERVIEW OF ANDRES L. 1249 11
r DEFENSE 00
DEFENSE QQ
AUDIOTAPED INTERVIEW OF ANDRES L.
1257 11
1279 11
r DEFENSE
DEFENSE
ss
w
LIST OF NAMES
DOCUMENT INDICATING ANDRES L. IS
1313 12
1317 12
r LITTLE DEAD MAN
r
r
r
r
r PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION: -
PAGE VOL.
r
-- -
33 PHOTO OF GLOVES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1449 13
67 PHOTO OF INTERIOR OF CAMRY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1445 13
r 68 PHOTO OF CENTER CONSOLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1446 13
r 69 PHOTO OF INTERIOR OF CASTRO VEHICLE ...... 1446 13

70 PHOTO OF SEASHELLS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1446 13
r 87 PHOTO OF A SHIRT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1357 13

88 PHOTO OF BACK SIDE OF SHIRT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1357 13
r 89 PHOTO OF INSIDE OF SHIRT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1357 13

96 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1452 13
r 97 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1453 13

98 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1453 13
[ 99 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1453 13
r 100 PHOTO OF TATTOOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 13

101 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF TATTOOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 13
[ 102 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S SHOULDER . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 13

103 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF TATTOOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1455 13
r 104 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S TORSO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1455 13
r
105 PHOTO OF TATTOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1455 13
106 PHOTO OF TATTOOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1455 13
r 107 PHOTO OF TATTOOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1456 13

108 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S SIDE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1456 13
[ 109 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S BICEP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1456 13

110 PHOTO OF RIGHT SIDE OF DEFENDANT . . . . . . . . 1457 13
r 111 PHOTO OF TATTOO ON FOREARM . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1457 13
r 112 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S BACK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1457 13

113 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF BACK TATTOO . . . . . . . . . . . 1457 13
r
r
r
[
PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED (CONTINUED): PAGE VOL.
r 114 PHOTO OF TATTOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1458 13
r 115 PHOTO OF TATTOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1458 13

116 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S SHOULDER AND BACK ... 1458 13
r OF HEAD
117 PHOTO OF TATTOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1459 13
[ 118 PHOTO OF PARK SIGNS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1701 14

119 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1702 14
[ 120 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1702 14
r 121 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1703 14

122 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1704 14
r
,__
123 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TELEPHONE POLE ...... 1704 14
124 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF GRAFFITI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1704 14
r 125 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1705 14

126 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF GRAFFITI . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1705 14

128 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON FENCE ...... 1706 14
r 129 CLOSE-UP OF EXHIBIT 128 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1706 14
r 130 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON PINK FENCE . . . . . . . . . . 1707 14

131 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON GRAY FENCE . . . . . . . . . . 1707 14
r 132 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TREE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1707 14

133 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TREE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1708 14
rl 134 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TREE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1708 14
135 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON LIGHT POLE . . . . . . . . . . 1709 14
r 136 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON CONCRETE BASE ....... 1709 14
r 137 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON FENCE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1709 14

138 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1710 14
r
r
r
[
PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED {CONTINUED) : PAGE VOL.
- ---
r 139 CLOSE-UP OF EXHIBIT 138 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1710 14
r 140 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1711 14
[ 144 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1712 14
i 146 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1713 14
147 PHOTO OF GROUND AROUND BENCH . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1714 14

r
L
151 SHIRT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 59 13
r 163 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 1389 13
164 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF HEAD AND FACE .......... 1391 13
[ 165 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF FACE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 9 2 13
166 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF HEAD ................... 1392 13
r 167 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF HEAD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 9 3 13
...........
r 168 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF CHIN AND EAR
169 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF MOUTH ............... . ..

1394 13
1395 13
r 170 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LOWER LIP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1396 13
171 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT EYE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1396 13
r 172 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF TORSO .......... ..... ...

173 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF ARM AND TORSO . . . . . . . . . . . 1397 13
1397 13
r 174 AUTOPSY PHOTO RIGHT SIDE OF . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1398 13
175 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF BODY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 9 8 13
r 176 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF TORSO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 9 9 13
r 177 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF TORSO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 9 9 13
r
r
r PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED (CONTINUED) : PAGE
- -- VOL.
-
l 178 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT ARMPIT . . . . . . . . . . . . 1399 13
r 179 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF BRUISING AND REDNESS .... 14 00 13
180 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT PALM . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 0 0 13
r 181 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT HAND . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1401 13

182 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT HAND . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1401 13
r 183 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT WRIST AND FOREARM .. 1401 13
184 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT HAND . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1402 13
r 185 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF THUMB AND INDEX FINGER .. 1402 13
186 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT FOREARM . . . . . . . . . . . . 1402 13
l 187 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT FOREARM . . . . . . . . . . . 1403 13
r 188 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT ELBOW . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1403 13
189 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT FOREARM . . . . . . . . . . . 1403 13
r 190 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT SHOULDER . . . . . . . . . . 1404 13

191 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEGS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 0 4 13
r 192 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEGS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 0 4 13

193 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEGS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 0 4 13
r 194 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT SIDE OF TORSO ..... 14 0 5 13
r 195 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND, LEFT ..... 1405 13
SIDE
r 196 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND TO CHEST .. 1406 13

197 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND TO LEFT ... 1407 13
r
I-
SIDE
r SIDE
r 199 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF THREE GUNSHOT WOUNDS .... 1410 13
TO RIGHT BUTTOCK
r 200 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND . . . . . . . . . . . 1411 13
r
[~
r PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED (CONTINUED): PAGE VOL.

[ 201 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND . . . . . . . . . . . 1412 13

203 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND . . . . . . . . . . . 1414 13

205 PHOTO OF X-RAY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1415 13
r 213 PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1367 13

214 PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1367 13
r 215 PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1367 13

216 COURT COMPLAINT FILED 2-4-08 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1683 14
[ 217 COURT COMPLAINT FILED 12-28-07 . . . . . . . . . . . 1686 14

219 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TREE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1693 14
L 221 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1694 14

r 225 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1697 14

226 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1697 14
r 227 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON PIPE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1697 14


C' 233 PHOTO OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1721 14

234 PHOTO OF THREE PEOPLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1721 14
[ 235 PHOTO OF THREE PEOPLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1722 14
r 236 PHOTO OF TAGGING . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1723 14
r
r
r PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED (CONTINUED): PAGE VOL.
c 238 JONATHAN QUINTANILLA'S MYSPACE PROFILE ... 1802 15
r
239 PHOTO OF TATTOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1828 15
243 PHOTOS OF BLACK GLOVES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1369 13
r 265 AERIAL MAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1661 14

266 PHOTO OF TATTOO ON JOSUE GUTIERREZ ....... 1944 15
\'
l.
DEFENSE EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION: PAGE VOL.
- ---
I PHOTO LINEUP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1500 13
r Q LETTER FROM ANTHONY EWING WITH ATTACHED

PRISON RECORDS OF JONATHAN QUINTANILLA
1846 15
[ V PHOTO OF JOSE GUTIERREZ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1862 15
r FF TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW OF JOSUE . . . . . . . . . 1941 15

GUTIERREZ
r GG CD OF EXHIBIT FF . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1942 15
II MYSPACE PROFILE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1777 15
r TT PHOTO OF A POSTER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1928 15

HHH GUNSHOT RESIDUE REPORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1520 13
r III PHOTO OF A TATTOO ON JOSUE GUTIERREZ' .... 1956 15
r ARM
GGG PHOTO OF A CD COVER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1976 15
r
r
r
r
r
r
r.
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
- -- VOL
-
r DEFENSE uu
vv
PHOTOGRAPH OF UNION CARD 2207 16
r DEFENSE
DEFENSE ww
PHOTOGRAPH OF DEFENDANT AT WORK
2207 16
2207 16
r DEFENSE MMM
DEFENSE NNN
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
2263 17
2286 17
r DEFENSE 000
DEFENSE KKK
PHOTOGRAPH OF STUMP
HARD COPY OF POWERPOINT
2286 17
2293 17
r DEFENSE BB
PRESENTATION
THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT RE
ACCREDITATION
2296 17
r DEFENSE LLL STATISTICAL COMPARISON TABLE 2334 17
r DEFENSE JJJ
PEOPLE'S 267
QUALITY ASSURANCE STANDARDS
PHOTOGRAPH OF VICTOR RAMOS
2340 17
2540 18
r PEOPLE'S 268
PEOPLE'S 269
PHOTOGRAPH OF TOMAS LOPEZ
PHOTOGRAPH OF JOSEPH NIETO
2541 18
2542 18
r EXHIBITS RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE
r EXHIBIT
DEFENSE EXHIBITS
PAGE
2583 18
r EXHIBITS WITHDRAWN
r EXHIBIT
PEOPLE'S 24
PAGE
2580 18
r PEOPLE'S 86 2580 18
r
r
DIVISION ONE
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY

CALIFORNIA, HON . BERNARD E. REVAK, JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND
RESPONDENT , COURT OF APPEAL
NO. D060019
vs. CASE NO . SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND
APPELLANT.
VOLUME 1
PAG~S 1 THROUGH 8
NOVEMBER 16, 2010
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFF KAMALA D. HARRIS

STATE OF CALIFORNIA
110 WEST " A" STREET
FOR THE DEFENDANT IN PROPRIA PERSONA

AND APPELLANT:
REPORTED BY: LEANNE R. TULLER , CSR NO. 12392

SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO
DEPARTMENT NO. 52 HON. BERNARD E. REVAK
)
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
)
VS. ) CASE NO. SCD230596
)
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, )
)
DEFENDANT. )
______________________________ )
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
NOVEMBER 16, 2010
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFF: BONNIE M. DUMANIS

DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: SOPHIA ROACH
330 WEST BROADWAY
FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MATTHEW J. SPEREDELOZZI

REPORTED BY: LEANNE R. TULLER, CSR NO. 12392

SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA
1
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 2010, 9:08 A.M.

2 THE COURT: THIS IS CASE NUMBER CD230596, PEOPLE VERSUS
3 DOMINGUEZ. MAY I HAVE APPEARANCES, PLEASE.
4 MS. ROACH: SOPHIA ROACH APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE
5 PEOPLE FOR PURPOSES OF THE DEMURRER HEARING.
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M MATTHEW J. SPEREDELOZZI ON
7 BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT, WHO IS PRESENT IN CUSTODY.
8 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THIS MATTER WAS ASSIGNED HERE
9 ON FRIDAY LAST TO RULE ON A DEMURRER. AFTER DISCUSSIONS,
10 ALL ON THE RECORD, I DISCLOSED TO COUNSEL THAT I NEEDED
11 ADDITIONAL TIME TO REVIEW THE PLEADINGS, THE MOTION IN THIS
12 CASE, AS WELL AS THE AUTHORITY FOR THE GRANTING OR DENIAL OF
13 THE DEMURRER. ACCORDING TO PENAL CODE SECTION 1006, A
14 DEMURRER IS TO BE HEARD IMMEDIATELY. UNLESS FOR EXCEPTIONAL
15 CAUSE SHOWN, THE COURT SHALL GRANT A 0NTINUANCE. AND IT
16 REQUIRES THAT I ENTER IN THE MINUTES THE FACTS REQUIRING THE
17 BRIEF CONTINUANCE THAT I REQUESTED. COUNSEL DID NOT OBJECT
18 TO IT, THE BRIEF CONTINUANCE.
19 AND I JUST WANT TO PUT ON THE RECORD THAT I'M A RETIRED
20 JUDGE, AND THIS CASE WAS ASSIGNED TO ME AT THE 11TH HOUR, SO
21 TO SPEAK, ON FRIDAY LAST. I HAD INSUFFICIENT TIME TO REVIEW
22 THE MOTION, THE DEMURRER, AS WELL AS THE OPPOSITION TO IT,
23 PLUS A READING OF THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE JUDGE WHO GRANTED
24 THE DISMISSAL UNDER 1385.

25 SO ENTER IN THE MINUTES THOSE FOLLOWING REASONS, MS.
26 CLERK, SO THAT THE MINUTES REFLECT WHY I CONTINUED THE CASE.
27 DOES COUNSEL CARE TO ADD TO THAT ANYTHING?
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR.

2
1 THE COURT: OKAY. INITIALLY I THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS
~ 2 NOT A MATTER THAT COULD BE DEMURRED. BUT IN TAKING A LOOK
3 AT PENAL CODE SECTION 1004, THE DEMURRER CAN BE LODGED UNDER
4 NUMBER FIVE, THAT IT CONTAINS MATTER WHICH, IF TRUE, WOULD
5 CONSTITUTE A LEGAL JUSTIFICATION OR EXCUSE OF THE OFFENSE
6 CHARGED, OR OTHER LEGAL BAR TO THE PROSECUTION.
7 INITIALLY MY THOUGHT WAS THAT THE PLEA THAT COUNSEL
8 SHOULD HAVE ENTERED OTHER THAN DEMURRING WAS DOUBLE
9 JEOPARDY. BUT I THINK, IF I READ THIS CORRECTLY, THAT
10 YOU'RE RELYING ON POINT NUMBER FIVE FOR GROUNDS OF A
11 DEMURRER. IS THAT CORRECT, COUNSEL?
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CORRECT. AND ALSO, WITHOUT HAVING
13 MY BRIEF ON ME --
14 THE COURT: THERE ARE ONLY FIVE GROUNDS FOR WHICH YOU
15 CAN DEMURRER. AND ONE, TWO, THREE AND FOUR DO NOT APPLY TO
16 THIS CASE. NUMBER ONE, THE GRAND JURY WAS FOUND TO HAVE NO
17 LEGAL AUTHORITY TO INQUIRE INTO OR IF THE INFORMATION OR
18 COMPLAINT HAS NO JURISDICTION OF THE OFFENSE CHARGED.
19 THAT'S NOT TRUE.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IN MY BRIEF I INTERPRETED "HAVING NO
21 JURISDICTION" MEANING THAT THE ACTUAL CASE IS ILLEGAL. AND
22 SO THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THEY NO LONGER HAVE JURISDICTION
23 BECAUSE JEOPARDY IS TERMINATED. SO ONE OR FIVE.
24 THE COURT: I THINK IT'S UNDER NUMBER FIVE, QUITE
25 FRANKLY, WHERE IT SAYS OR OTHER LEGAL BAR TO THE
26 PROSECUTION. AND SO THAT'S WHERE I AM IN THIS.
27 AND THEN GOING TO THE MERITS OF IT, EITHER AS A
28 DEMURRER OR A BAR TO RETRIAL ON JEOPARDY GROUNDS. THIS IS

3
1 MY RULING. I THINK IN READING WHAT JUDGE FRASER DID, WHAT

2 IS IMPORTANT TO ME IS NOT SO MUCH WHAT HE SAID AS WHAT HE
3 DIDN'T SAY. AND TAKING A LOOK AT HATCH AND SOME OF THE
4 OTHER CASES THAT HAVE INTERPRETED THIS SITUATION, HE NEVER
5 SAID THAT THERE WAS LEGALLY INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE. AND I
6 THINK THE CASES DISCUSS THAT LANGUAGE. AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE
7 ARE GROUNDS FOR WHICH A 1385 COULD BE RULED ON AND COULD BE
8 MADE AND WOULD BAR A RETRIAL. BUT THAT WASN'T SAID BY THE
9 JUDGE. AND SO HE DID NOT FIND THAT THERE WAS NO SUBSTANTIAL
10 EVIDENCE UPON WHICH A TRIER OF FACT COULD FIND THE DEFENDANT
11 GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT OR THAT THERE WAS LEGALLY
12 INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE. HAD HE SAID THAT, THEN I THINK THE
13 DISMISSAL WOULD BAR A RETRIAL.
14 AS I UNDERSTAND FURTHER THE LAW, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
15 GETS ONE BITE OUT OF THE APPLE, SO TO SPEAK. MEANING THAT
16 IF THERE'S ONE DISMISSAL, THEY CAN REFILE UNLESS THE JUDGE
17 WHO GRANTS IT FINDS THAT'S THERE'S LEGALLY INSUFFICIENT
18 EVIDENCE OR THAT THE PROSECUTION HAS ENGAGED IN SERIOUS OR
19 OUTRAGEOUS MISCONDUCT OR THAT A RETRIAL IS MEANT TO HARASS A
20 DEFENDANT. AND NONE OF THESE WERE BROACHED OR DISCUSSED BY
21 THE TRIAL JUDGE. AND I DON'T THINK THAT, BASED ON THIS
22 ENTIRE RECORD IN THIS CASE, HE MADE SUCH A FINDING. SO I
23 THINK THE TWO DISMISSAL RULE APPLIES. THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
24 HAS NOW USED UP ONE. THE SECOND DISMISSAL OF THIS CASE
25 WOULD BAR A RETRIAL. AND SO I'M GOING TO DENY THE DEMURRER
26 OR ALTERNATIVELY ANY SIMILAR MOTION ON JEOPARDY GROUNDS.
27 HAVING SAID THAT, I THINK WE NEED TO ARRAIGN THE
28 DEFENDANT AT THIS TIME.

4
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY, YOUR HONOR. I'LL DO THAT NOW.

~ 2 THE DEFENSE HAS RECEIVED A COPY OF THE COMPLAINT. THE
3 DEFENDANT'S .TRUE NAME APPEARS THEREON. AT THIS TIME THE
4 DEFENDANT ENTERS A PLEA OF NOT GUILTY AND A DENIAL OF ALL OF
5 THE ALLEGATIONS CONTAINED THEREIN IN THE COMPLAINT. AND WE
6 WOULD REQUEST DUE COURSE DATES FOR READINESS AND PRELIM.
7 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'LL ENTER A NOT GUILTY PLEA,
8 DENIAL OF ALL ALLEGATIONS ON BEHALF OF MR. DOMINGUEZ. DO WE
9 HAVE DATES?
10 THE CLERK: YES, YOUR HONOR. READINESS WILL BE ON
11 NOVEMBER THE 29TH AT 8:15 IN DEPARTMENT 30. PRELIMINARY
12 HEARING, DECEMBER 1ST, 8:15, DEPARTMENT 11.
13 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SO ORDERED. THANK YOU,
14 COUNSEL.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
16 MS. ROACH: AND, YOUR HONOR, BAIL REMAINS AS SET?
17 THE COURT: YES. BAIL WILL REMAIN AS SET.

18 THE CLERK: YOUR HONOR, AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE IS NO
19 BAIL SET ON THIS CASE.

20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, ACTUALLY I WOULD LIKE TO
21 BE HEARD ON BAIL.
22 THE COURT: OKAY.
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, LAST TIME THIS CASE WENT
24 TO TRIAL, BAIL WAS SET AT ONE MILLION DOLLARS. AND NOW HE

25 IS REMANDED. NOTHING HAS CHANGED, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT
26 THE PROSECUTION COULDN'T PROVE THEIR CASE AT THE LAST TRIAL.
27 SO WE WOULD ASK THAT AT THE VERY LEAST THAT IT BE SET BACK
28 TO WHERE IT WAS INSTEAD OF REMAND THAT IT BE SET TO ONE
5
1 MILLION.
2 FURTHERMORE, IF THE JUDGE WOULD BE INCLINED TO EVEN
3 LOWER IT PAST ONE MILLION TO SOMETHING WHERE IT WOULD BE
4 REASONABLE FOR THE DEFENDANT TO POST AND MAYBE BE OUT OF
5 CUSTODY DURING THE COURSE OF THIS TRIAL. HE HAS BEEN IN
6 CUSTODY SINCE FEBRUARY. HE'S DENIED THE CHARGES FROM DAY
7 ONE, AND THAT WAS THE DEFENSE AT TRIAL, THAT IT'S THE WRONG
8 PERSON. AND THE PROSECUTION, BASED ON THE TRANSCRIPT THAT
9 THE JUDGE READ, THEY COULDN'T PROVE THAT IT WAS
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ. HE'S GOT FAMILY SUPPORT IN THE COMMUNITY.

11 HE'S MARRIED, HE HAS THREE CHILDREN, WHO HE HASN'T SEEN
12 SINCE FEBRUARY, AUNTS, UNCLES, A LOT OF THEM WHICH CAME IN
13 AND TESTIFIED AS CHARACTER WITNESSES ON HIS BEHALF.
14 PRIOR TO THIS CHARGE, THE DEFENDANT HAS NEVER HAD A

~~
'
15 CHARGE INVOLVING A GUN OR A SHOOTING. THE WORST THAT HE HAD
16 WAS A 245 BACK IN 2004, WHICH WAS ESSENTIALLY A BAR FIGHT
17 WITH SOME RAIDERS FANS. THAT'S THE WORSE THING HE HAS ON
18 HIS RECORD, BESIDES THIS. HE'S A 32-YEAR-OLD MAN WITH A
19 MORTGAGE, WITH A LIFE OUTSIDE OF THIS CASE. THAT HAS BEEN
20 INTERRUPTED FOR ALMOST A YEAR NOW.

21 BASED ON THAT, WE'D ASK THAT ONE, THE BAIL BE SET BACK
22 TO WHERE IT WAS OR A MILLION DOLLARS AND ALTERNATIVELY, THAT
23 IT BE LOWERED TO PERHAPS $500,000.

24 THE COURT: ARE THE CRIMES IN THIS COMPLAINT THE SAME
25 AS?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S THE SAME ACT, AND THERE'S NO
~ 27 NEW EVIDENCE.
28 THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND, BUT THE SAME CHARGES?
6
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO. THE PROSECUTOR ADDED A CHARGE

2 FOR CONSPIRACY, AND IT'S THE DEFENSE'S VIEW THAT THEY HAVE
3 EVEN LESS EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A CONSPIRACY THEORY THAN THEY
4 DO THE ACTUAL MURDER CHARGE. AND IT'S ALSO THE DEFENSE'S
5 VIEW THAT THE CONSPIRACY CHARGE IS A SHAM. IT'S JUST AN
6 EXCUSE TO GET THIS IN COURT AGAIN.
7 MS. ROACH: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THOUGH I DON'T HAVE
8 THE BENEFIT OF HAVING TRIED THIS CASE, I CAN RECITE TO THE
9 COURT SOME FACTS. WHAT I WILL INDICATE, THOUGH, UP FRONT IS
10 THAT I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A NO BAIL SETTING BECAUSE THE
11 DEFENDANT WAS REBOOKED. AND WHENEVER LAW ENFORCEMENT DOES A
12 REARREST ON A MURDER, IT IS SET AT NO BAIL UNTIL THE FIRST
13 BAIL HEARING. THAT WOULD BE TODAY, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOW HAD
14 AN ARRAIGNMENT AND COUNSEL HAS ASKED FOR A BAIL HEARING.
15 BAIL, I BELIEVE, WAS PREVIOUSLY SET AT ONE MILLION
16 DOLLARS. THE PEOPLE HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THIS COURT
17 ESTABLISHING THE SAME BAIL. IT SEEMS ABSOLUTELY
18 APPROPRIATE. AND WHILE THERE WAS A MISTRIAL IN THE PRIOR
19 CASE, I WILL INDICATE TO THE COURT THAT IT WAS A MISTRIAL.
20 IT WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT AN ACQUITTAL. WE ARE HERE AGAIN ON THE
21 SAME CHARGES, WHICH INVOLVE THE EXECUTION OF A 15-YEAR-OLD

22 BY A 32-YEAR-OLD DEFENDANT WHO IS STILL CALLING SHOTS FOR A
23 CRIMINAL STREET GANG.
24 HERE IS A GENTLEMAN WHO HAS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO

25 ESTABLISH HIS LIFE. HE HAS GOT A WIFE, HE'S GOT KIDS, HE'S
26 GOT A MORTGAGE. AND THEN ON THE WEEKENDS HE JUMPS KIDS INTO
27 GANGS. AND DURING JUMPING THEM INTO GANGS, HE TAKES

t
28 RETRIBUTION ON THE ONES WHO HAVEN'T PERFORMED AS HE
7
1 EXPECTED, AND THATs WHAT HE DID IN THIS CASE. AND HE

~ 2 COLDLY AND CALCULATEDLY KILLED A CHILD. AND HE DESERVES TO
3 BE HELD IF NOT ON ONE MILLION DOLLARS BAIL, MORE.
4 THE COURT: OKAY. IrM GOING TO REINSTATE THE ORIGINAL
5 BAIL. I DO NOTE, FOR THE RECORD, THAT IN READING THE
6 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MOTION ON NOVEMBER THE 4TH IN FRONT OF
7 JUDGE FRASER THAT IT WAS STATED NUMEROUS TIMES THAT
8 APPARENTLY THE JURY WAS SPLIT NINE TO THREE, I BELIEVE, FOR
9 NOT GUILTY, WHICH DOES SPEAK A LITTLE BIT TO THE STRENGTH OF
10 THE PROSECUTION. BUT IrLL GIVE YOU A BAIL REVIEW, IF YOU
11 WANT TO SET IT FOR FURTHER BAIL REVIEW.
13 THE COURT: OKAY. SET IT FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS,
14 THEN.
15 THE CLERK: YES, YOUR HONOR.
16 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
17 MS. ROACH: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. YOUR HONOR,
19 I DO WANT TO ENTER A PLEA, IN ADDITION TO THE PLEA OF NOT
20 GUILTY OF A PLEA OF ONCE IN JEOPARDY, AS WELL, TO KEEP THE
21 ISSUE ALIVE FOR APPEAL PURPOSES.

22 THE COURT: WHATrS THE AUTHORITY FOR THAT AT THIS
23 POINT?
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST SO THE COURT KNOWS, THE DEFENSE
25 IS PLANNING TO FILE A WRIT ON THIS CASE FOR THIS ISSUE.
26 THE COURT: OH.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THAT, I BELIEVE, WOULD KEEP THE
28 ISSUE ALIVE FOR APPEAL PURPOSES.

8
1 THE COURT: HOLD ON JUST A SECOND. I DON'T KNOW IF I

~ 2 CAN DO BOTH OF THEM.
3 MS. ROACH: AND, YOUR HONOR, I WANT TO SAY IT'S 1017 OF
4 THE PENAL CODE THAT ADDRESSES THIS OR PERHAPS 1016. AND I
5 THINK THAT THE PLEA OF -- WELL, TECHNICALLY, I BELIEVE THE
6 PLEA OF ONCE IN JEOPARDY APPLIES WHEN THE ACTUAL CHARGE HAS
7 BEEN PREVIOUSLY PLED. HERE WE HAVE TWO SEPARATE COUNTS, AND
8 SO THERE MAY NEED TO BE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO
9 COUNTS.
10 THE COURT: OKAY. UNDER 1016 IT INDICATES A DEFENDANT
11 WHO DOES NOT PLEAD GUILTY MAY ENTER ONE OR MORE OF THE OTHER
12 PLEAS. SO, THERE ARE SIX OF THEM. ONCE IN JEOPARDY IS
13 NUMBER FIVE AND NOT GUILTY IS LISTED AS NUMBER TWO. SO I
14 THINK YOU'RE OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU.
16 MS. ROACH: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~ 27
28
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
ss.
COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO
I, LEANNE R. TULLER, CSR NO. 12392, REPORTER IN

THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, IN
AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO, HEREBY CERTIFY:
THAT I REPORTED IN MACHINE SHORTHAND THE

PROCEEDINGS HAD IN THE WITHIN CASE, AND THAT THE
FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT, DATED NOVEMBER 16, 2010, CONSISTING OF
PAGES NUMBERED 1 THROUGH 8, INCLUSIVE, IS A FULL, TRUE, AND
CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE SAID PROCEEDINGS.
DATED AT SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, THIS 25TH DAY
OF JULY, 2011.
DIVISION ONE
) FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
OF CALIFORNIA, ) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS,
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
RESPONDENT I ) COURT OF APPEAL
) NO. D060019
vs . )
)
FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ , ) SUPERIOR COURT
) NO . SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT . )
)

VOLUME 2
MARCH 8, 2011
PAGES 9 THROUGH 54
APPEARANCES :
FOR THE PLAINTIFF KAMALA D . HARRIS
AND RESPONDENT : ATTORNEY GENERAL
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT :
REPORTED BY : PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO . 6263

r
r DEPARTMENT 48 BON. CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDGE

)
) CASE NO. SCD230596
r
OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________))
DEFENDANT.
MARCH 8, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r
330 WEST BROADWAY, SUITE 750

RETAINED COUNSEL
r
r
r
r 9
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 8, 2011; 9:55 AM
r 2
r 3
4
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD MORNING.
BEFORE THE COURT IS THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
r 5
6
CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ.
CASE SCD230596.
THIS IS
MR. DOMINGUEZ IS NOT PERSONALLY PRESENT
r 7
8
AT THIS TIME, ALTHOUGH HE IS IN THE CUSTODY OF THE
SHERIFF.
r 9
10
APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE?
MR. TROCHA: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
r 11 KRISTIAN TROCHA FOR THE PEOPLE.
r 12
13 MORNING.
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, THANK YOU. GOOD
r 14
15
APPEARING ON BEHALF OF MR. DOMINGUEZ?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M MATTHEW J.
r 16
17
SPEREDELOZZI.
THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, GOOD MORNING TO
r 18 YOU AS WELL.
r 19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
20 THE COURT: BRIEFLY, THE POSTURE OF THE CASE IS
r 21
22
THIS: THE INFORMATION CHARGES ONE COUNT OF MURDER AND
ONE COUNT OF CONSPIRACY AND VARIOUS ALLEGATIONS. TODAY
r 23
24
IS THE DATE SET FOR TRIAL.
DAYS.
THIS IS THE FIRST OF 10
r 25 I HAVE MET WITH BOTH COUNSEL IN AN UNREPORTED

CONFERENCE IN CHAMBERS. DURING THAT CONFERENCE, A
26
r 27 SPIRITED COLLOQUY OCCURRED BETWEEN BOTH COUNSEL IN
r 28 EDUCATING THE COURT AS TO SOME OF THE TWISTS AND TURNS
r
10
l
l
1 THIS CASE HAS TAKEN IN THE PAST, AND, INDEED, SOME OF
2 THE TWISTS AND TURNS THAT THIS CASE APPEARS LIKELY TO l
3 HAVE FOR US IN THE FUTURE.
4 IT'S MY DETERMINATION THAT WE WILL RECESS THE l
5
6
MATTER UNTIL THIS AFTERNOON TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT
WERE RAISED IN CHAMBERS. THEY WILL BE PUT FORTH ON THE
l
7
8
RECORD THIS AFTERNOON, BUT THEY ARE ISSUES PRELIMINARY
TO THE QUESTION OF WHEN WE ACTUALLY BEGIN MOTIONS IN
l
9 LIMINE AND JURY SELECTION IN THIS CASE, DISCOVERY AND l
10 OTHER ISSUES.
11 WE'RE CONVENED RIGHT NOW, HOWEVER, TO ORDER l
12 WITNESSES BACK. AMONG THE THINGS THAT THE COURT LEARNED
13 IS THAT BOTH COUNSEL HAVE FACED SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES
l
14
15
IN OBTAINING THE ATTENDANCE AND COOPERATION OF EVEN
SUBPOENAED WITNESSES. I UNDERSTAND THAT TWO OF THE MORE
l
16 COOPERATIVE, IT APPEARS, ARE HERE TODAY AND NEED TO BE
l
17 ORDERED BACK.
18 IT IS NOT CLEAR WHEN THE TRIAL WILL ACTUALLY l
19 COMMENCE. ONE SUGGESTION THAT WAS MADE IN CHAMBERS THIS
20 MORNING IS THAT WE BEGIN THE JURY SELECTION AND THE IN l
21 LIMINE MOTIONS -- NOT IN THAT ORDER, OF COURSE -- A WEEK
22 FROM TODAY, NEXT TUESDAY; THIS BEING THE PEOPLE'S
l
23
24
SUGGESTION. THE DEFENSE HAS SOME OBJECTIONS TO WHAT IS
CLAIMED TO BE DISCOVERY ISSUES OF WHICH THE DEFENSE WAS
l
25
26
NOT PREVIOUSLY AWARE, AND THE DEFENSE WOULD SEEK EITHER
THAT WE BEGIN IMMEDIATELY IF THE COURT RULES CERTAIN
l
27 EVIDENCE INADMISSIBLE, OR THAT WE SET IT BEYOND THAT l
28 NEXT TUESDAY DATE.
l
l
r 11
r 1 I THINK WE'RE IN AGREEMENT THAT A WORKING
r 2 COMPROMISE INSOFAR AS THESE WITNESSES IS CONCERNED IS
r 3
4
THIS:
DATE.
WE CAN ORDER THEM BACK FOR TWO WEEKS FROM TODAY'S
IF, IN FACT, WE HAVE BEGUN THE TRIAL, THAT WILL
r 5
6
BE ABOUT A TIME IN WHICH THEIR TESTIMONY MIGHT BE COMING
UP. AND IF FOR ANY REASON THE TRIAL GETS POSTPONED,
r 7
8
THEN WE CAN LEAVE THAT TWO-WEEK DATE ON HERE IN THIS
COURTROOM FOR COUNSEL TO SHOW UP AND WE'LL GET THEM
r 9 ORDERED BACK FOR WHAT THE NEW DATE IS.
r 10
11
WITH THAT PERHAPS LENGTHY PREAMBLE, WHAT ARE
THE WITNESSES' NAMES, PLEASE?
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE WITNESS FOR THE DEFENSE
r 13 IS CARLOS ALVARA. I CAN GET HIM IF YOU'D LIKE.
r 14
15 FOR ME.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. WILL YOU SPELL HIS NAME
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALVARA, A-L-V-A-R-A, AND HIS
FIRST NAME IS CARLOS, C-A-R-L-0-S.
r 18 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
r 19
20
INQUIRING OF BOTH COUNSEL, IS THERE ANY REASON
I SHOULD HAVE THESE WITNESSES BROUGHT BACK SEPARATELY OR
r 21
22
CAN WE DO IT AT THE SAME TIME?
MR. TROCHA: WE CAN DO IT AT THE SAME TIME.
r 23
24 WITNESS IS?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND THE PEOPLE'S
r 25
26
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
TOMAS, T-0-M-A-S, LOPEZ WITH A Z.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. MAY WE ASK
r 27 MR. ALVARA AND MR. LOPEZ TO STEP INTO THE COURTROOM.
r 28 AND THE DATE THAT THE COURT PROPOSES WILL BE THE 22ND OF
r
12
1
l
1 MARCH.
2 GOOD MORNING, GENTLEMEN. I'M TOLD THAT ONE OF l
3 YOU IS MR. CARLOS ALVARA. WHO IS THAT?
4 MR. ALVARA: RIGHT HERE. l
5
6 HERE.
THE COURT: MR. ALVARA, THANK YOU FOR BEING
DO I CORRECTLY SPELL YOUR NAME A-L-V-A-R-A?
1
7
8
MR. ALVARA:
THE COURT:
YES, SIR.
AND WHEN IS YOUR BIRTHDAY, PLEASE?
l
l
9
10
11 SIR.
MR. ALVARA:
THE COURT:
12/31/92.
DECEMBER 31ST, 1992. THANK YOU,
,
12
13
AND YOU ARE MR. TOMAS LOPEZ?
MR. LOPEZ: YES.
1
14
15 HERE.
THE COURT: MR. LOPEZ, THANK YOU FOR BEING
WHEN IS YOUR BIRTHDAY, PLEASE?
l
16 MR. LOPEZ: 11/13/78. l
17 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
18 GENTLEMAN, YOU ARE BOTH UNDER SUBPOENA TO COME 1
19 TO COURT FOR THIS TRIAL. IT IS A SERIOUS MATTER. A
20 SUBPOENA IS A COURT ORDER. I APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT l
21
22
YOU BOTH COMPLIED WITH THIS COURT ORDER.
I'M GOING TO ORDER YOU TO COME BACK ON A NEW
l
23
24
DATE, AT WHICH TIME WE WILL HAVE -- WE'LL EITHER BE IN A
POSITION TO TAKE YOUR TESTIMONY OR HAVE A REAL CLEAR
l
25 DATE AS TO WHEN YOUR TESTIMONY WILL BE NEEDED. YOU'RE l
26 EACH ORDERED TO RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM WHERE YOU ARE
27 RIGHT NOW, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT l
28 LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY, CITY OF SAN DIEGO, ON TWO
l
l
r 13
r 1 WEEKS FROM TODAY'S DATE. THAT WILL BE MARCH 22ND, 2011,
r 2 AT 9:00 A.M. MARCH 22, 2011, 9:00 A.M.
r
3 MR. ALVARA, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS NEW DATE?
4 MR. ALVARA: YES, SIR.
5
r 6
THE COURT:
THIS NEW DATE?
AND, MR. LOPEZ, DO YOU UNDERSTAND
r 7
8
MR. LOPEZ:
THE COURT:
YES.
GENTLEMAN, THIS IS A COURT ORDER.
r 9
10
WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT IF YOU WILLFULLY FAIL TO APPEAR,
OF COURSE, A FINDING WILL BE MADE THAT YOU ARE IN
r 11 CONTEMPT OF COURT AND A BENCH WARRANT OR WARRANT OF
r 12
13
ATTACHMENT WILL BE ISSUED. IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THAT'S
GOING TO BE NECESSARY BECAUSE YOU ARE HERE TODAY, BUT
r 14
15
THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS, AND IF IT MEANS WITNESSES HAVE
TO BE ARRESTED AND HELD IN CUSTODY UNTIL THEIR
r 16
17
TESTIMONY, WE'VE DONE THAT.
MR. ALVARA, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE; MR. LOPEZ
r 18 AS WELL, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. WE'LL SEE YOU BACK
19 HERE ON THE 22ND.
r 20 LET'S STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30 THIS
r 21
22
AFTERNOON. SEE YOU BOTH BACK THEN, AND WE'LL HAVE
MR. DOMINGUEZ PRODUCED AT THAT TIME.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
(AT 10:02 A.M., A RECESS WAS TAKEN, TO BE
r 25
26
RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
Ill
r 27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
14
1
l
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 8, 2011; 1:39 PM
2 l
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES
4 AND GENTLEMEN. THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF l
5
6
SCD230596.
THIS IS
1
7
8
MR. TROCHA: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
l
l
9
10
11
KRISTIAN TROCHA FOR THE PEOPLE.
AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, THANK YOU. GOOD
,
12 ON BEHALF OF MR. DOMINGUEZ?
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
1
14
15
MATTHEW J. SPEREDELOZZI FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHO IS
PRESENT, IN CUSTODY.
l
16 MR. HULLINGER: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR. l
17 SCOTT HULLINGER FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ.
18 THE COURT: MR. HULLINGER, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, l
19 MR. DOMINGUEZ, GOOD AFTERNOON TO EACH OF YOU.
20 COUNSEL ARE FAR MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE l
21
22
BACKGROUND OF THIS CASE THAN I AM. I NOTE THAT THE
OPERATIVE CHARGING DOCUMENT APPEARS TO BE AN INFORMATION
l
23
24
FILED DECEMBER 1ST, 2010.
AN EARLIER CASE, SCD225579.
IT STATES THIS IS A REFILE OF
l
25 TODAY IS THE DATE THAT THE MATTER IS SET FOR l
26 TRIAL. THE MATTER WAS ASSIGNED TO THIS DEPARTMENT BY
27 THE MASTER CALENDAR DEPARTMENT, DEPARTMENT 11, THIS l
28 MORNING.
l
l
r 15
r 1 COUNSEL AND THE COURT MET IN AN UNREPORTED
r 2
3
CHAMBERS CONFERENCE THIS MORNING. WE WENT ON THE RECORD
WITHOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ BEING PRESENT FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE
r 4 OF ORDERING BACK WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF BOTH SIDES. WE
r 5
6
NOW NEED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT COUNSEL WERE GOOD
ENOUGH TO ACQUAINT ME WITH IN CHAMBERS THIS MORNING.
r 7
8
I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR COUNSEL, BUT I'M
GIVEN TO UNDERSTAND THAT PERHAPS THE ONE THAT MAKES THE
r 9
10
MOST SENSE TO ADDRESS FIRST IS WHEN WE'LL GET UNDERWAY
WITH THE TRIAL. I RECALL THAT MR. TROCHA INFORMED ME
r 11 THAT DUE TO OTHER SCHEDULING CONFLICTS, THREE PEOPLE'S
r 12
13
WITNESSES WOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE UNTIL THE 25TH OF THE
MONTH, AND MR. TROCHA'S RECOMMENDATION WAS THAT THE
r 14
15
COURT SET THE TRIAL TO BEGIN ONE WEEK FROM TODAY.
WOULD BE NEXT TUESDAY, THE 15TH, TO BEGIN WITH IN LIMINE
THAT
r 16
17
MOTIONS AND JURY SELECTION.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI INFORMED THE COURT OF ISSUES
r 18 THAT MAY AFFECT, IN HIS VIEW, WHEN THE TRIAL DATE --

19 WHEN THE TRIAL CAN REASONABLY BEGIN. HE REFERS TO SOME
r 20 DISCOVERY ISSUES. AND I WILL LET BOTH COUNSEL EXPLAIN
r 21
22
THIS, BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT IF THE COURT'S INCLINATION
IS TO ALLOW CERTAIN TESTIMONY IN, IN EVIDENCE, THEN
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI WOULD SEEK TO HAVE SOME TIME TO RESPOND
TO THAT.
r 25
26
WHY DON'T WE ADDRESS THESE ISSUES FIRST.
MR. TROCHA, I'D INVITE YOU TO BEGIN BY CORRECTING OR
AND,
r 27 AMENDING OR ADDING TO WHATEVER I'VE SAID ABOUT THE
28 PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS REGARDING THE STARTING DATE.

r
r
16
,
l
1 MR. TROCHA: THE COURT IS ACCURATE. WE HAVE
2 THREE WITNESSES, ONE BEING A DNA ANALYST, ANOTHER BEING l
3 A GANG EXPERT, AND THE THIRD BEING AN IMPEACHMENT
4 WITNESS. THE LATTER TWO WOULDN'T BE AVAILABLE UNTIL l
5
6
AFTER THE 25TH.
AFTER THE 14TH.
THE DNA EXPERT IS NOT AVAILABLE UNTIL
l
7
8
GIVEN THE HISTORY OF THIS CASE AND HOW LONG IT
TOOK TO DO THE PEOPLE'S DIRECT CASE, THE CASE IN CHIEF,
l
9 IT WOULD BE AT LEAST TWO WEEKS COURT TIME, WHICH WOULD l
10 BE 10 DAYS OF ACTUAL TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE, WHICH ONCE
11 THESE PEOPLE RETURN, THEY WILL BE SQUARE WITHIN THE l
12 MIDDLE OF THE CASE AND BE CALLED IN THE APPROPRIATE
13 TIMES.
l
14
15
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THE ISSUES FROM YOUR
l
16 PERSPECTIVE, I BELIEVE, ARE MORE COMPLEX. SHOOT.
l
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY, YOUR HONOR.
18 BASICALLY, THE DEFENSE IS REQUESTING EITHER THE l
19 TRIAL START AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, MEANING TOMORROW, IF
20 POSSIBLE, OR THAT WE BE GIVEN TWO WEEKS TO DO FURTHER l
21 INVESTIGATION. AND OUR REQUEST IS CONTINGENT ON THE
22 COURT'S RULING ON WHETHER A WITNESS WILL BE ALLOWED TO
l
23
24
TESTIFY.
GENERALLY, THAT WOULD BE A MOTION IN LIMINE,
l
25 BUT IT MAKES SENSE TO RULE ON THAT NOW SO THAT WE CAN l
26 RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF WHEN TRIAL IS GOING TO START. AND
27 I BELIEVE THAT IF THE WITNESS IS GOING TO BE TESTIFYING, l
28 I HAVE A GOOD-FAITH BELIEF THAT WE WOULD NEED TWO WEEKS
l
l
r 17
r 1
r
TO COMPLETE THE INVESTIGATION NECESSARY TO DEAL WITH
2 THAT WITNESS.
r 3
4
THE COURT: COUNSEL DID EXPLAIN THIS TO ME THIS
MORNING IN OUR UNREPORTED CONFERENCE. I THINK IT WOULD
r 5
6
BE APPROPRIATE AT THIS TIME IF I ASKED MR. TROCHA TO
GIVE US A PROFFER WITH RESPECT TO THAT WITNESS. YOU ALL
r 7
8
BOTH KNOW THIS, BUT THE PEOPLE WOULD BE CALLING THIS
WITNESS, AND I UNDERSTAND THIS WOULD BE AN IMPEACHMENT
r 9 WITNESS OF ANOTHER WITNESS.

10 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. THE FIRST WITNESS WOULD
r 11 BE A PERSON BY THE NAME OF JOSUE GUTIERREZ WHO CLAIMS TO
r 12
13
HAVE NOT BEEN PRESENT IN THE PARK DURING THE BEATING AND
SHOOTING. THIS WITNESS IS THE FORMER GIRLFRIEND OF THE
r 14
15
VICTIM, WHO SAYS THAT THEY, FOLLOWING THE MURDER
JOSUE GUTIERREZ APPROACHED HER AND RELATED TO HER EVENTS
r 16
17
WHICH HE CLAIMED TO HAVE BEEN IN THE PARK DURING A
CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE DEFENDANT AND THE VICTIM.
r 18 EVENTS SURROUNDING A PRIOR SHOOTING WERE
19 DISCUSSED OF WHICH THE DEFENDANT WAS UPSET ABOUT. A

r 20 ARGUMENT TURNED PHYSICALLY VIOLENT BETWEEN THE DEFENDANT
r 21
22
AND THE VICTIM, AFTER WHICH JOSUE GUTIERREZ RELATED TO
THIS GIRLFRIEND HE WITNESSED THE DEFENDANT SHOOT THE
r 23
24
VICTIM SEVERAL TIMES.
SHE ALSO RELATED SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE WERE
r 25 THERE. ALL THIS INFORMATION, ACCORDING TO THIS

GIRLFRIEND, COMES DIRECTLY FROM JOSUE GUTIERREZ WHO TOLD
r
26
27 HER HE WAS PRESENT AND WITNESSED.
r 28 THE COURT: THE GIRLFRIEND WITNESS NAME IS
r
18
,
1
1 WHAT, PLEASE?
2 MR. TROCHA: GLENNYS, G-L-E-N-N-Y-S, BERUMEN, l
3 B-E-R-U-M-E-N.
4 THE COURT: SO GIVEN THE WAY THESE THINGS PLAY l
5
6
OUT, IT WOULD NOT BE A STRETCH TO EXPECT THAT THE PEOPLE
WOULD CALL MR. GUTIERREZ, MR. GUTIERREZ WOULD SAY THAT
l
7
8
HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND DENY MAKING THESE
STATEMENTS. THE PEOPLE WOULD THEN SEEK TO CALL
l
9 MS. BERUMEN UNDER EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 1235 AND SEEK TO l
10 USE HER TESTIMONY AS SUBSTANTIVE EVIDENCE.
11 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. l
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. TROCHA.
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THEN WHERE ARE WE FROM YOUR
1
14
15
PERSPECTIVE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, THE FIRST ISSUE IS THE
1
16 LATE DISCLOSURE. BEFORE THIS HEARING, MR. TROCHA DID l
17 SHOW ME A PRINTOUT FROM THE D.A.'S OFFICE THAT SHOWED
18 THAT SOMETIME IN LATE DECEMBER THEY HAD PUT IT OUT FOR l
19 DISCOVERY.
20 SINCE LATE DECEMBER, I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY l
21 TIMES I'VE CHECKED THE DISCOVERY WINDOW FOR NEW
22 DISCOVERY ON THIS CASE, BUT I WOULD GUESS PROBABLY 10
l ~
23
24
TIMES, AND MY PARTNER, SCOTT HULLINGER, WHO IS HERE IN
COURT TODAY, HE'S ALSO CHECKED THE DISCOVERY WINDOW
l
25 SINCE THEN, AND WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE DISCOVERY. THE l
26 FIRST TIME I SAW THE REPORT WAS YESTERDAY.
27 NOW FROM THE DEFENSE'S PERSPECTIVE, THE l
28 DEFENDANT HAS BEEN IN JAIL NOW FOR OVER A YEAR, AND HE
l
l
r 19
r 1 REALLY WANTS TO GET THIS TRIAL DONE, AS DO HIS
r 2 ATTORNEYS. AND SO WHEN WE GET DISCOVERY THE DAY BEFORE
r 3
4
TRIAL IS SUPPOSED TO START THAT NECESSITATES FURTHER
INVESTIGATION, TO ME THAT IS NOT GOOD. WE SHOULDN'T BE
r 5
6
PUT IN THAT POSITION AND THE PROSECUTION SHOULD NOT BE
ALLOWED TO BRING THAT WITNESS.
r 7
8
BUT THE SECOND TIER TO THE ARGUMENT IS THAT
BASED ON WHAT THE REPORTS SAY, THE EVIDENCE IS
r 9
10
TECHNICALLY ADMISSIBLE UNDER 1235 AND EVIDENCE CODE
SECTION 770(B) AS A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT.
r 11 GENERALLY, EXTRINSIC EVIDENCE CAN BE USED TO IMPEACH OR
r 12
13
USED AS SUBSTANTIVE EVIDENCE WHEN A WITNESS MAKES PRIOR
INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS. SO THAT PART OF THE
r 14
15
ADMISSIBILITY EQUATION IS MET.
BUT THE SECOND PART IS NOT MET. THAT'S
r 16
17
EVIDENCE CODE 352 WHERE EVEN THOUGH IT TECHNICALLY IS A
PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT, IT STILL HAS TO BE
r 18 RELIABLE ENOUGH SO THAT IT'S NOT UNDULY PREJUDICIAL TO
r 19
20
THE DEFENDANT. AND HERE'S THE FACTS ABOUT THIS
STATEMENT THAT SHOWS THAT IT DOESN'T MEET THE THRESHOLD
r 21
22
OF 352.
THE STATEMENT WAS ALLEGEDLY MADE OVER TWO YEARS
r 23
24
AFTER THE STATEMENT WAS MADE TO THE GIRL.
TALK -- THE GIRL, HER NAME IS GLENNYS.
SO LET'S
SHE MADE THE
r 25
26
STATEMENT TO THE POLICE THAT MR. GUTIERREZ TOLD HER SOME
THINGS, AND SHE MADE THAT STATEMENT TWO YEARS AFTER
r 27 ALLEGEDLY MR. GUTIERREZ TOLD HER ABOUT THAT.
28 SHE'S THE ONE WHO INITIATED THE CONTACT WITH

r
r
20
1
l
1 THE POLICE. SHE CALLED SERGEANT HOWIE, LEFT HIM A
2 VOICEMAIL AND SAID, "I HAVE SOME INFORMATION ON THE l
3 CASE." AT THAT TIME MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD ALREADY BEEN IN
4 JAIL SINCE FEBRUARY, AN EXTENSIVE INVESTIGATION HAD l
5
6
ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THE CASE, AND IT'S SAFE TO ASSUME
SHE HAD BEEN FOLLOWING ALONG WITH THE CASE AND ASKING
l
7
8
QUESTIONS.
ISSUES.
SO, YOU KNOW, SHE HAS SOME CREDIBILITY
l
9 THERE ARE INCONSISTENCIES BETWEEN WHAT SHE SAID l
10 IN HER REPORT TO DETECTIVE LAMBERT AND WHAT SHE SAID TO
11 THE D.A. INVESTIGATORS. FIRST OF ALL, IN THE REPORT, 1
12 SHE SAYS THE STATEMENT BY MR. GUTIERREZ WAS MADE
13 SOMETIME IN THE SUMMER, AND SHE DIDN'T IDENTIFY EXACTLY
l
14
15
WHEN.
SHE ALSO SAYS IN THE REPORT THAT MR. GUTIERREZ
l
16 WAS TELLING HER THINGS THAT HE HAD HEARD, NOT THINGS
l
17 THAT HE HAD SAW. AND, THIRDLY, THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE
18 WITH HER, SOMEBODY NAMED JULIO OR STONEY, AND VICTOR l
19 RAMOS WAS WITH HER WHEN SHE FIRST MADE THE STATEMENT TO
20 DETECTIVE LAMBERT. l
21 NOW LET'S GO ON TO THE D.A.I. 'S REPORT AND WHAT
22 SHE SAID TO THE D.A.I.
l
23
24
THE COURT: SLOWLY, PLEASE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOW SHE IS SAYING THAT THE
l
25 STATEMENT WAS MADE TO HER THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING, l
26 WHICH WAS SEPTEMBER 14TH. SHE WASN'T ABLE TO SAY THAT
27 IN THE FIRST INTERVIEW. l
28 THEN SHE SAYS THAT THERE WAS SOMEBODY WITH HER
l
l
r 21
r 1 NAMED STONEY, BUT ALSO A FEMALE NAMED ROWDY AND A SECOND
r 2 MALE WHO SHE DIDN'T IDENTIFY. SO NOW THERE IS DIFFERENT
r 3
4
PEOPLE WITH JOSUE THAN THERE WAS THE FIRST TIME.
AND THEN THE THIRD ONE -- I'M GETTING A LITTLE
r 5
6
TURNED AROUND HERE.
IMPORTANT ONE.
OH, YEAH, THIS IS THE MOST
NOW WHEN THE D.A.I. AND MR. TROCHA GO TO
r 7
8
HER HOUSE OR WHEREVER THEY WENT TO INTERVIEW HER, NOW
SHE SAYS THAT JOSUE WAS BASING HIS STATEMENTS ON WHAT HE
r 9 SAW, NOT WHAT HE HEARD.
r 10
11
SO IF WHAT'S IN THE FIRST REPORT IS TRUE, THEY
ACTUALLY CAN'T LAY A FOUNDATION FOR A PRIOR INCONSISTENT
r 12
13
STATEMENT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE DOUBLE HEARSAY.
WHEN ON THE 28TH WHEN THEY REINTERVIEW HER AND SHE
IT'S ONLY
r 14
15
CHANGES HER STORY THAT NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY CAN
POTENTIALLY LAY THAT FOUNDATION.
r 16
17
AND ALSO WHAT CUTS AGAINST THE RELIABILITY OF
WHAT SHE'S SAYING AND, IN MY MIND, MAKES IT INADMISSIBLE
r 18 UNDER 352 IS THAT MR. GUTIERREZ HAS AN ALIBI, AN ALIBI
r 19
20
THAT CHECKS OUT.
GUNSHOTS WENT OFF.
HE WAS AT A QUINCEANERA WHEN THE
THAT'S WHAT HE TOLD THE POLICE THE
r 21
22
DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING.
REPORTS.
IT'S DOCUMENTED IN THE POLICE
r 23
24
THAT WAS ALSO BACKED UP BY ALEXIS LOPEZ, RONALD
MARTINEZ, CAROL MARTINEZ WHO WERE ALSO AT THE
r 25
26
QUINCEANERA. ALL OF THEM SAY THAT JOSUE GUTIERREZ WAS
AT THE QUINCEANERA.
r 27 FURTHERMORE, IN JOSUE GUTIERREZ'S STATEMENT TO
r 28 THE POLICE, HE SAYS WHEN THE ALARM WENT OFF AT THE REC
[
22
l
l
1 CENTER, THEY ALL MET UP WITH A GUY NAMED CARLOS RIOS.
2 CARLOS RIOS SAYS THAT WHEN THE ALARM WENT OFF AT THE REC l
3 CENTER NOW, HE'S A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, I THINK HE
4 WORKS FOR THE PARKS DEPARTMENT -- HE SAID WHEN THE ALARM l
5
6
WENT OFF, HE WENT OVER TO A QUINCEANERA AND MET UP WITH
SOME KIDS. SO THAT STORY CHECKS OUT.
l
7
8
ALL THIS EVIDENCE AND STATEMENTS THAT
MR. GUTIERREZ WAS NOT THERE AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING
l
9 ALL MAKES SENSE, ALL CHECKS OUT, IS ALL DOCUMENTED IN l
10 THE POLICE REPORTS. AND WE CAN GO OUT AND SEND MY
11 INVESTIGATOR, WHO IS PRESENT IN COURT TODAY, TO GO DIG l
12 UP THAT INFORMATION, BUT IT'S A WASTE OF TIME. IT'S
13 GOING TO DELAY THE TRIAL TWO WEEKS.
l
14
15
AND, MEANWHILE, JUST BECAUSE HE DENIES BEING AT
THE PARK, WHICH HE HAS AN ALIBI FOR, ALL OF A SUDDEN THE
l
16 D.A. GETS TO COME IN AND LET HER TELL THE JURY A l
17 DETAILED STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED AT THE PARK THAT NIGHT
18 AND THAT JOSUE GUTIERREZ TOLD IT TO HER. THAT IS HIGHLY l
19 PREJUDICIAL TO THE DEFENDANT, AND IT'S JUST NOT RELIABLE
20 INFORMATION. SO I ASK THAT IT BE EXCLUDED UNDER l
21 EVIDENCE CODE 352.
22 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA.
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA: FIRST ADDRESSING THE DISCOVERY
ISSUE, COUNSEL GOT A DATE WRONG. THE DISCOVERY THAT
l
25 HE'S COMPLAINING OF WAS RELEASED ON SEPTEMBER 29, 2010, l
26 WHICH PREDATES THE ORIGINAL TRIAL IN THIS MATTER, NOT
27 DECEMBER. l
28 THE COURT: NOW, THAT WAS NOT THE DISTRICT
l
l
r 23
r 1 ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR'S REPORT BUT A DIFFERENT REPORT?
r 2 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. THE ORIGINAL REPORT OF
r 3
4
WHEN MS. BERUMEN CALLED THE POLICE AND THE SAN DIEGO
P.O. WENT OUT AND INTERVIEWED HER ORIGINALLY.
r 5
6
THE COURT: SO THIS IS A POLICE OFFICER'S
REPORT OF WHAT SHE SAID, THEN?
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. HER IDENTITY AND THE
STATEMENTS COUNSEL IS COMPLAINING OF WERE MADE PREDATING
r 9
10
SEPTEMBER 29TH.
13, 2010.
IN FACT, THEY WERE MADE ON SEPTEMBER
THAT REPORT WAS MADE AVAILABLE ON THE 29TH OF
r 11 SEPTEMBER 2010.
r 12
13
THE COURT: IN THAT REPORT, DOES SHE SAY THAT
MR. GUTIERREZ SAID THAT HE SAW?
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA: SHE SAID THAT IN HIS RELATING TO
HER OF THE THINGS THAT HE WITNESSED, SHE SAID HE WOULD
r 16
17
BOUNCE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN HEARING IT AND BEING
THERE, BUT SHE SAID, FROM WHAT HE TOLD HER, IS THAT HE
r 18 WAS THERE.
r 19
20
AND FROM LISTENING TO THE DETAILS THAT HE
RELATED TO HER, HER BELIEF WAS, ADDITIONALLY, THAT
r 21
22
MR. GUTIERREZ WAS PRESENT AND WITNESSED THIS FIRSTHAND
AS OPPOSED TO HEARING IT ON THE STREETS AND THINGS OF
r 23
24
THAT NATURE, WHICH IS THE REASON THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
INVESTIGATOR AND I WENT OUT TO INTERVIEW HER SEVERAL
r 25
26
WEEKS AGO TO FIND OUT "WERE YOU THERE?
WORD ON THE STREET KIND OF STUFF?"
OR WAS THIS JUST
AND SHE CLARIFIED,
r 27 "OH, NO. HE SAID HE WAS THERE AND WITNESSED THIS
r 28 FIRSTHAND."
[
24
,
l
1
2
3
THE COURT: AND THIS WAS THE SECOND INTERVIEW
WHICH IS THE D.A.I. REPORT THAT MR. SPEREDELOZZI REFERS
TO.
,
4 MR. TROCHA: YES. AND THAT WAS THE ONE THAT l
5
6
WAS RAISED ON MARCH 2ND.
THE COURT: OF THIS YEAR?
1
7 MR. TROCHA: OF THIS YEAR AFTER THE INTERVIEW
l
8 TOOK PLACE ON THE 28TH OF FEBRUARY.
9 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. PROCEED. l
10 MR. TROCHA: WITH THAT, I MEAN, COUNSEL'S
1
11
12
13
ARGUMENT IS HE JUST DOESN'T BELIEVE HER. IF THAT'S THE
BASIS OF KEEPING THE EVIDENCE OUT, THAT'S THE REASON IT
SHOULD COME IN. IT'S A DETERMINATION OF CREDIBILITY
,
14
15
WHICH THE JURY IS HERE TO DETERMINE FOR THE ENTIRE CASE.
I MEAN, IF WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK AND SAY WE
l
16 HAVE TO KEEP OUT EVERYONE WHO GIVES AN INCONSISTENT 1
17 STATEMENT, THERE WOULD BE ONE WITNESS TESTIFYING IN THIS
18 CASE, AND THAT WOULD BE THE MEDICAL EXAMINER, BECAUSE l
19 THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST OR ALL CRIMINAL TRIALS.
20 IF SOMEONE DEVIATES JUST SLIGHTLY IN ONE OF THEIR l
21
22
STATEMENTS ON THE STAND AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO THEN
EXPAND COUNSEL'S THEORY OF 352 TO SAY, "HA, THAT'S NO
1
23
24
LONGER RELIABLE," WE COULD NEVER DO A CRIMINAL TRIAL.
MOREOVER, COUNSEL HAS HIS OWN PROBLEMS WITH HIS
l
25 OWN WITNESSES HE CAN PUT ON WHO SAY THEY WERE IN ONE l
26 PLACE WHEN THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THEY WERE IN ANOTHER
27 PLACE. THIS ALL COMES DOWN TO IT'S A FACTUAL l
28 DETERMINATION TO BE MADE BY THE JURY.
l
l
r 25
r 1 THERE IS NO LEGAL REASON TO KEEP MS. BERUMEN
r 2 OFF THE STAND IN THIS CASE. IN FACT, THE EVIDENCE CODE
r 3
4
AND THE LAW ENCOURAGES THIS TYPE OF EVIDENCE BE
PRESENTED AT A CRIMINAL TRIAL.
r 5
6
THE COURT: YOU KNOW, I SEE THERE'S A GANG
ALLEGATION IN THE CASE. SINCE WE MET THIS MORNING, I
r 7
8
HAVE FAMILIARIZED MYSELF SOMEWHAT WITH THE BACKGROUND
AND CIRCUMSTANCES AND I HAVE THE PRELIMINARY HEARING
r 9
10
TRANSCRIPT. I UNDERSTAND THAT MUCH WATER HAS PASSED
UNDER THE BRIDGE SINCE THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, BUT I
r 11 THINK I HAVE A FLAVOR OF SOME OF THE DYNAMICS THAT WE
12 MIGHT EXPECT IN THIS CASE.
[ 13 IN CASES WITH GANG OVERTONES, THERE ARE ALWAYS
r 14
15
CONFLICTED LOYALTIES AND BIASES. SECTION 1235 OF THE
EVIDENCE CODE WAS CREATED FOR THE SO-CALLED TURNCOAT OR
r 16
17
ROLLOVER WITNESS.
NORMALLY, THE QUESTION OF RELIABILITY OF
r 18
19
EVIDENCE IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE TRIAL COURT CONSIDERS
IN DETERMINING WHETHER TO ADMIT OR EXCLUDE EVIDENCE.
r 20 THERE ARE A COUPLE OF QUALIFICATIONS TO THAT STATEMENT;
( 21
22
FOR INSTANCE, WHERE HEARSAY EVIDENCE IS SOUGHT TO BE
INTRODUCED AND THERE IS NOT A SPECIFIC EVIDENCE CODE
r 23
24
PROVISION THAT WOULD ALLOW ITS ADMISSIBILITY, THEN WE
LOOK AT THE RELIABILITY OF THE EVIDENCE.
r 25 WE LOOK AT THE RELIABILITY OF THE HEARSAY

26 DECLARANT'S STATEMENT. THAT'S CHAMBERS V. MISSISSIPPI
r 27 THAT SAYS WE DON'T USE A STATE'S EVIDENCE CODE
28 PROVISIONS TOO MECHANISTICALLY TO EXCLUDE, IN THAT CASE,
r
c
26
,
l
1 RELEVANT DEFENSE EVIDENCE WHERE IT WAS RELIABLE HEARSAY.
2 BUT THAT'S REALLY ONE OF THE FEW PLACES WHERE A JUDGE, l
3 IN RULING ON THE ADMISSIBILITY OF EVIDENCE, LOOKS AT
4 RELIABILITY. RELIABILITY IS REALLY FOR THE TRIER OF l
5
6
FACT TO THRASH OUT.
NOW, IN A SITUATION WHERE AN OBJECTION IS
l
7 LODGED UNDER EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 352, I THINK THAT
l
8 RELIABILITY DOES COME INTO THE EQUATION, AND IT MAY COME
9
10
11
IN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE 352 SCALE.
EVIDENCE
ON THE ONE HAND, THE PROBATIVE VALUE OF THE
I SUPPOSE IT'S NATURAL FOR THE COURT TO GIVE
,
l
j
12 SOME CONSIDERATION OF ITS PROBABLE RELIABILITY. IT ALSO

13 SEEMS REASONABLE TO CONCLUDE THAT ON THE SIDE OF WHETHER
l
l
,
14 THERE IS GOING TO BE SUBSTANTIAL DANGER OF UNDUE
15 PREJUDICE OR CONFUSING THE ISSUES OR MISLEADING THE
16 JURY, THEN THE RELIABILITY MIGHT BE A CONSIDERATION.
17 CERTAINLY, MR. SPEREDELOZZI MAKES THE CASE THAT
18 IF THIS EVIDENCE COMES IN, IT WON'T BE JUST AS SIMPLE AS 1
19 THE COURT POSTULATED IT IN VIEWING ITS ADMISSIBILITY
20 UNDER SECTION 1235. IT WILL THEREAFTER GENERATE A GOOD l
21
22
DEAL OF DEFENSE EVIDENCE, AND SO WE RUN THE RISK OF ALL
OF THOSE FACTORS THAT ARE ON THE EXCLUSION SIDE OF THE
1
l
,
23 352 SCALE.
24 IT SEEMS TO ME, HOWEVER, THAT FRANKLY THAT'S
25 WHY WE'RE HERE. WE'RE HERE TO HAVE A TRIAL. THE
26 EVIDENCE IS PRESUMPTIVELY ADMISSIBLE. I DON'T DOUBT THE
27 PROFFER THAT MR. TROCHA MAKES. l
28 THIS CERTAINLY WILL NOT BE THE FIRST CASE IN
l
l
r 27
r 1
r
THIS COURTHOUSE WHERE EITHER SIDE HAS TO CALL A WITNESS
2 AND TELL THE JURY, YOU KNOW, "I'M GOING TO CALL THIS
3 WITNESS AND THIS WITNESS IS GOING TO LIE TO YOU, AND
r 4 THEN WE'RE GOING TO CALL ANOTHER WITNESS AND THAT
r 5
6
WITNESS WILL TELL YOU WHAT THE FIRST WITNESS SAID ON A
DIFFERENT OCCASION, AND THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN CONSIDER
r 7
8
THAT AS THOUGH IT WERE THE WITNESS'S TESTIMONY."
I'M MINDFUL OF THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE CHARGES.
r 9
10
I'M MINDFUL THAT THIS IS GOING TO REQUIRE SOME DEFENSE
INVESTIGATION. THE DEFENSE MAY WELL CALL WITNESSES THAT
r 11 SAY "MR. GUTIERREZ COULDN'T HAVE SEEN THOSE THINGS
12 BECAUSE HE WAS WITH US IN ANOTHER LOCATION," AND THE
r 13 PEOPLE MAY HAVE SOME IMPEACHING TESTIMONY FROM THOSE
r 14
15
WITNESSES. I'LL DECIDE WHERE TO DRAW THAT LINE WHEN AND
IF WE GET TO IT. BUT TO THE EXTENT THE OBJECTION IS
r 16
17
MADE UNDER SECTION 352, IT IS DENIED.
THERE IS ALSO, WHAT I HEAR, AN OBJECTION AS TO
l 18 DISCOVERY VIOLATION. IT DOESN'T SOUND TO ME LIKE THERE

19 HAS BEEN A DISCOVERY VIOLATION. I ACCEPT BOTH COUNSEL'S
l 20 REPRESENTATIONS. I AM SATISFIED THAT THE DISTRICT
ATTORNEY PLACED IT OUT THERE. I'M SATISFIED THAT
[ 21
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI WAS CHECKING AND DIDN'T GET IT. IF HE
r 23
24
HAD GOTTEN IT, HE WOULD HAVE DONE ALL THIS WORK OR THIS
WOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED BEFORE NOW. I DON'T HAVE ANY
r 25
26
DOUBT ABOUT THAT.
IT SEEMS TO ME THE THING TO DO IS GIVE HIM A
r 27 REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME TO GET THESE WITNESSES IN
r 28 POCKET AND TO DO THE INVESTIGATION THAT HE NEEDS TO DO,
[
28
,
l
1
2
3
AND I THINK THE SUGGESTION OF A SECOND WEEK IS A GOOD
ONE IF THERE IS A TIME WAIVER, AND I'M HAPPY TO
ENTERTAIN THAT. BUT I DON'T FIND A DISCOVERY VIOLATION.
,
4 IF THERE WERE A VIOLATION, EXCLUSION OF THE l
5
6
TESTIMONY WOULD NOT BE THE APPROPRIATE SANCTION.
SECTION 1054.3, I BELIEVE, OR .5 -- .5 SAYS THAT
l
7 EXCLUSION OF THE TESTIMONY IS THE LAST RESORT. AND THE l J
8 CASE LAW TELLS US THAT CAN ONLY BE USED WHERE THE COURT
9 MAKES A FINDING THAT THERE WAS A DISCOVERY VIOLATION l
10 THAT WAS DELIBERATELY UNDERTAKEN FOR THE PURPOSE OF A
11 TECHNICAL ADVANTAGE. 1
12 AND THAT'S NOT THE CASE. NO DISCOVERY
13 VIOLATION, LET ALONE FOR THOSE PURPOSES. SO TO THE
1
14
15
EXTENT THERE'S A MOTION TO EXCLUDE IT BASED ON THE LATE
DISCOVERY, THAT MOTION IS DENIED AS WELL. I'M HAPPY TO
l
16
17
ENTERTAIN SETTING DATES INSTEAD OF STARTING A WEEK FROM
NOW, SO A WEEK THEREAFTER.
1
18 WE WOULD HAVE 10 DAYS FROM TODAY'S DATE WITHIN l
19 WHICH TO BEGIN THE TRIAL. THAT MEANS 10 DAYS WITHIN
20 WHICH TO BEGIN DEVOTING OUR SUBSTANTIAL EFFORTS TO THE l
21
22
TRIAL OF THIS CASE.
NOW.
I'M HAPPY TO DO IT SEVEN DAYS FROM
THAT'S A REQUEST I WOULD NORMALLY MAKE UNDER THE
l
23
24
CIRCUMSTANCES. IF THE DEFENSE WERE MAKING THIS REQUEST
FOR THE SAME REASONS, I'D GRANT IT FOR THEM.
l
25 WHAT I CAN'T DO IS GO TWO WEEKS WITHOUT THERE l
26 BEING A TIME WAIVER, AND I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE
27 MR. DOMINGUEZ WAIVE TIME. IF HE WANTS IT TO START ONE l
28 WEEK FROM NOW RATHER THAN TWO WEEKS FROM NOW, WE'LL
l
l
[
29
c 1 START ONE WEEK FROM NOW.
r 2
3
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHAT'S HIS THOUGHT ON THAT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GIVEN THE RULING OF THE
r 4 COURT, WE'D ASK JUST THAT WE RESET THE TRIAL DATE FOR
c 5
6
THIS DEPARTMENT ON MARCH 22ND, JUST EXACTLY TWO WEEKS
FROM TODAY.
r 7
8
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY,
SO THE 8TH WOULD BE, WHAT, THE EIGHTH DAY.
r 9 MR. TROCHA: TODAY IS THE 8TH. SO THE 18TH, I

10 THINK, WOULD BE THE ZERO DAY.
r 11 THE COURT: RIGHT.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, INSTEAD OF TRAILING
r 13 IT, CAN WE JUST CONTINUE IT UNTIL THE 22ND?
r 14
15
THE COURT: SURE. BUT WHAT I WOULD PROPOSE TO
DO IS IF WE START IT ON THE 15TH, WE'D STILL HAVE THE
r 16
17
15TH, 16TH, 17TH AND 18TH TO GET IT TO TRIAL. I'M HAPPY
TO SET IT ON THE 22ND, WE'LL START ON THE 22ND, BUT IF
[ 18 ONE OF YOU WERE UNAVAILABLE THAT DAY FOR SOME REASON
r 19
20
THAT WAS BEYOND YOUR CONTROL, I DON'T WANT THAT TO BE
OUR lOTH DAY. SO WHAT I WOULD SAY IS I'LL SET IT ON THE
r 21
22
22ND IF WE STILL HAVE THE SAME FOUR DAYS TO TRAIL AFTER
THAT THAT WE WOULD HAVE IF WE STARTED ON THE 8TH.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: OKAY.
YES. THAT'S STIPULATED TO.
MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHAT ALL THAT
r 25 MEANS IS THIS: YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE THE TRIAL START
r 26
27
28
WITHIN 10 DAYS FROM TODAY'S DATE. I WOULD PROPOSE TO
START IT ON THE 8TH, WHICH MEANS IT WOULD HAVE TO
START I'M SORRY -- I WOULD PROPOSE TO START IT A WEEK
r
[
30
1
l
1 FROM TODAY, WHICH WOULD BE THE 15TH. THAT MEANS IT
2 WOULD HAVE TO START EITHER THE 15TH, 16TH, 17TH OR 18TH. l
3 WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED, GIVEN MY RULING, IS
l
4
5
6
THAT WE PUT IT ON THE 22ND WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT
WE'LL START ON EITHER THE 22ND, THE 23RD, THE 24TH OR
THE 25TH. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ALL THIS?
,
7
8
THE DEFENDANT:
THE COURT:
YES, I DO.
IS THIS ACCEPTABLE WITH YOU?
1
l
9
10
11
THE DEFENDANT:
THE COURT:
YES, IT IS.
COUNSEL JOIN?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES.
,
12 THE COURT: THANK YOU. I'LL FIND THAT TIME
13 WAIVER, AND WE'LL SET IT THEN FOR THE 22ND, TO START
1
14
15
WITHIN THAT DAY OR THE THREE DAYS THEREAFTER, WHICH
WOULD TAKE US TO THE 25TH. IN OTHER WORDS, HE'S NOT
l
16 BEING PREJUDICED. I'VE STILL GOT THE SAME WORKING l
17 LEEWAY THAT I WOULD HAVE IF WE STARTED ON THE 8TH.
18 OKAY. NOW, ONE MOMENT, PLEASE. WHEN WE SPOKE l
19 THIS MORNING, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAD MENTIONED
20 DISCOVERY ISSUES FROM THE PEOPLE'S PERSPECTIVE WITH l
21
22
RESPECT TO DR. VINCENT MILLER, WHO IS THE DEFENSE DNA
EXPERT. THE COURT'S GRASP OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE
l
23
24
PEOPLE HAVE A CONCERN THAT THE INITIAL REPORT THEY GOT
FROM DR. MILLER PRIOR TO THE FIRST TRIAL OF THIS CASE
l
25 DID NOT ADEQUATELY DISCLOSE THE SCOPE OF HIS OPINIONS l
26 AND TESTIMONY AND CONCLUSIONS.
27 I'M TOLD THAT THE PEOPLE HAVE HAD SOME DNA l
28 EVIDENCE REANALYZED OR ELSE SOME NEW EVIDENCE ANALYZED
l
l
[
31
c 1 FOR DNA. THAT DISCOVERY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THE DEFENSE.
r 2
3
DR. MILLER IS EXAMINING THAT HIMSELF AND WILL HAVE A NEW
REPORT. OUR HOPE WAS THAT THAT WOULD OCCUR TODAY OR
r 4 TOMORROW.
5 MR. TROCHA, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT YOUR
[ 6 CONCERNS ARE HERE.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
REPORT WON'T BE COMPLETE.
MY CONCERNS ARE BASICALLY THAT THE
AT THIS TIME, THOUGH, SINCE
L 9 WE ARE GOING TO BE MOVING THE TRIAL FOR TWO WEEKS, I CAN

10 RESERVE MY PROBLEMS OR ISSUES WITH IT UNTIL I SEE THIS
r 11 REPORT THAT'S GOING TO BE COMING OUT WITHIN THE NEXT
r 12
13
COUPLE OF DAYS, AND WE CAN ADDRESS IT AT THE TRIAL CALL
ON THE 22ND WITH MOTIONS IN LIMINE AT THAT TIME. I
r. 14
15
THINK MAYBE THAT WILL BE A BETTER USE OF OUR TIME.
THE COURT: MY THOUGHT WAS THIS: I KNOW WHEN
r 16
17
WE TALKED IN CHAMBERS --AND, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'LL BE
PLEASED TO HEAR FROM YOU AS WELL -- THAT IT DOES US NO
r 18 GOOD AT THIS POINT TO TRY TO DETERMINE IF ONE SIDE IS
r 19
20
ATTEMPTING TO GAIN A TACTICAL ADVANTAGE, EITHER SIDE.
BUT AS I THINK I REMARKED THIS MORNING, THE
21 OVERRIDING THING THAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE IS THAT
[
22 THE CASE BE TRIED ON ITS MERITS. AND THAT MEANS THAT IF
r 23
24
EITHER SIDE HAS AN EXPERT WITNESS WHO'S PREPARING A
REPORT, THE REPORT NEEDS TO ACCURATELY REFLECT THE SCOPE
r 25
26
OF THE EXPERT'S ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS.
MY PROPOSAL WOULD BE LET'S SEE WHAT THE REPORT
r 27 SAYS. AND IT HAS BEEN MY PRACTICE IN THE PAST TO DO THE
r 28 FOLLOWING: IF A COUNSEL RAISES CONCERNS ABOUT THE SCOPE
[
32
l
l
1 OF THE REPORT AND I AM PERSUADED THAT THOSE CONCERNS ARE
2 VALID, THEN MY PRACTICE IS TO HAVE A 402 HEARING, BRING l
3 THE EXPERT IN. HE CAN BE EXAMINED BY BOTH SIDES. THE
4 PEOPLE CAN HAVE THEIR EXPERT WATCH THE EXAMINATION, IF 1
5
6
THEY WANT, TO AID IN THEIR PREPARATION.
TRUE IF THE SHOE WERE ON THE OTHER FOOT.
SAME WOULD BE
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI REMINDS ME THAT THIS EXPERT IS
FROM OUT OF STATE AND THERE ARE CERTAIN SCHEDULING
l
9 ISSUES. AND IF THAT IS THE ROUTE THAT OCCURS, IT WOULD l
10 BE NICE IF THE EXPENSE COULD BE SAVED OF HAVING HIM MAKE
11 TWO TRIPS OUT, AND I'D CERTAINLY MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO l
12 ACCOMMODATE THAT.
13 MY THOUGHT IS THIS: WHEN MR. SPEREDELOZZI
1
14
15
RECEIVES THE REPORT, IT WILL BE FURNISHED TO MR. TROCHA.
I CAN EITHER ADDRESS IT ON THE 22ND, OR IF YOU ALL WANT
l
16 TO TRY TO PUT ON A HEARING BEFORE THAT, CALL THE CLERK l
17 AND WE'LL TRY TO GET YOU IN. YOU CAN CALL THE CLERK
18 EX PARTE AND WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN FREE UP A DATE OR A 1
19 MORNING OR AN HOUR OR TWO AND GET MR. DOMINGUEZ PRODUCED
20 AND WE'LL ADDRESS IT AT THAT TIME. l
21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'LL INVITE YOU TO ADD
ANYTHING YOU'D LIKE TO ADD TO THE RECORD, OR ANY
l
23
24
COMMENTS OR OBSERVATIONS OR DISAGREEMENTS YOU MIGHT
HAVE.
l
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS AN l
26 ISSUE THAT WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION A FEW WEEKS AGO
27 WHEN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY WROTE A LETTER TO l
28 MR. MILLER -- DR. MILLER, AND HE CC'D ME ON THAT LETTER,
l
l
r 33
r 1 BASICALLY ACCUSING DR. MILLER OF NOT PROVIDING HIM WITH
r 2
3
ALL THE UNDERLYING DOCUMENTS THAT HE BASED HIS OPINION
ON. AND IN THE LETTER, MR. TROCHA ACCUSED DR. MILLER OF
[ 4 RELYING ON SOME DEFENSE STRATEGY GUIDES AND THINGS OF
r 5
6
THAT NATURE.
IT'S SORT OF MISLEADING BECAUSE WHAT ACTUALLY
r 7
8
HAPPENED WAS MR. TROCHA WENT ON TO DR. MILLER'S WEBSITE,
CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES, PICKED OUT SOME CHOICE
L 9 LANGUAGE THAT WAS ADVERTISING MATERIAL FOR HIS BUSINESS
r
10 TO ADVERTISE THAT HE DOES FORENSICS FOR DEFENSE
11 ATTORNEYS AND POINTED TO MATERIALS THAT WERE ADVERTISED
r 12
13
ON DR. MILLER'S WEBSITE AND SAYS, "HEY, I NEVER GOT THIS
DNA DEFENSE STRATEGIES FOR LAWYERS," OR SOMETHING LIKE
( 14 THAT.
15 MEANWHILE, I NEVER GOT THAT EITHER. I DIDN'T
r 16
17
CALL DR. MILLER AND SAY, "HEY, DNA DEFENSE STRATEGIES
FOR LAWYERS, CAN I GET A COPY OF THAT?" SO THAT WASN'T
[ 18 RELIED ON TO FORM HIS OPINION. IT WASN'T RELIED ON BY
r 19
20
ME. THE MATERIALS REQUESTED WEREN'T RELIED ON BY ME TO
MAKE MY CROSS-EXAMINATION. I RELIED ON SCIENCE JOURNALS
[ 21 THAT I READ AND MY OWN RESEARCH AND THINGS OF THAT
22 NATURE.
r 23
24
JUST SO IT'S NOT A PROBLEM AND TO SHOW WE HAVE
NOTHING TO HIDE, DR. MILLER PREPARED A NOTEBOOK FOR ME
r 25 OF THINGS THAT ARE ON HIS WEBSITE. I HAVEN'T EVEN

FINISHED READING THROUGH IT, I JUST GOT IT YESTERDAY, A
r
26
27 CD FULL OF POWERPOINTS THAT HE DOES AND JOURNAL ARTICLES
r 28 THAT HE RELIES ON GENERALLY, NOT SPECIFIC TO THIS CASE,
[
34
l
l
1 BUT GENERALLY, WHICH I HAVEN'T EVEN LOOKED AT YET.
2 I DON'T BELIEVE THEY ARE RELEVANT. I THINK l
3 THAT MR. TROCHA, IF HE GETS HIS HANDS ON THE
4 INFORMATION, HE'LL, YOU KNOW, SPIN IT AS THOUGH HE'S A l
5 BIASED DEFENSE DNA GUY, WHEN ACTUALLY HE TESTIFIES FOR
1
6 THE PROSECUTION AS WELL.
,
7
8
9
IF THE COURT'S INCLINED, THE COURT CAN TAKE A
LOOK AT THIS AND DECIDE WHAT'S RELEVANT AND WHAT'S
DISCOVERABLE AND WHAT'S NOT AND GIVE THAT TO THE
, J
10 PROSECUTOR. BUT I DON'T THINK ANY OF IT IS. BUT I DID

11 BRING IT TO THE HEARING TODAY JUST BECAUSE I GOT IT AND l
12 I KNOW MR. TROCHA ASKED FOR IT.
13 THE COURT: WELL, DID DR. MILLER PROVIDE A CV,
l
14
15
A CURRICULUM VITAE?
l
16 THE COURT: WAS THE CV COMPLETE? DID IT HAVE 1
17 ALL OF THESE -- NOT THE CONTENT, BUT ALL OF THE KINDS OF
18 THINGS HE WRITES AND DOES LISTED ON IT? 1
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DON'T KNOW IF IT HAD A
20 LIST OF ALL THE JOURNAL ARTICLES THAT HE'S READ, BECAUSE 1
21
22
THAT'S -- ESSENTIALLY WHAT THAT DISC IS, IS JOURNALS
I DON'T KNOW WHAT JOURNALS THEY'RE FROM, BUT SCIENCE
1
23
24
JOURNALS ON DNA.
THE COURT: HE DOESN'T HAVE TO LIST EVERYTHING
l
25 HE'S READ. l
26 MR. TROCHA, ANYTHING FURTHER AT THIS JUNCTURE,
27 OR DO YOU WANT TO WAIT UNTIL YOU GET THE REPORT? l
28 MR. TROCHA: I'LL JUST WAIT UNTIL WE GET THE
l
l
[
35
r 1 REPORT. I'D JUST LIKE TO REMARK THAT THAT'S EXACTLY

[ 2 WHAT WE WANTED, THE MANUAL THAT'S CALLED FORENSIC DNA
3 DEFENSE STRATEGIES. HE SAID HE NEVER GAVE IT TO THE
r 4 DEFENSE. HE ADVERTISED IT ON HIS WEBSITE FOR HIS
[ 5
6
COMPANY, SAYING THAT HE WROTE IT.
THE CRUX OF OUR ARGUMENT IS DR. MILLER IS
r 7
8
MAKING STATEMENTS IN COURT AND OPINIONS BASED UPON
STATEMENTS AND OPINIONS HE'S COMPILED IN THESE MANUALS,
c 9
10
WHICH HE OFFERS TO DEFENSE ATTORNEYS FREE OF CHARGE.
IT'S OUR OPINION, LOOKING AT THE CASE LAW -- AGAIN, I

[ 11 DON'T WANT TO GO INTO DETAIL AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE I
12 BELIEVE THIS IS MORE APPROPRIATE FOR MOTION IN LIMINE OR

r 13 DISCOVERY MOTION -- THAT THESE ARE STATEMENTS OF A
c 14
15
WITNESS THAT THE DEFENSE IS PUTTING ON THE STAND THAT
ARE BOTH MATERIAL AND RELEVANT TO THE CASE AND RELEVANT
r 16
17
TO THIS PERSON'S TESTIMONY.
IT WOULD BE JUST AS IF ANY OTHER WITNESS CAME
r 18 ON THE STAND THAT HAD MADE PRIOR STATEMENTS BASED UPON
r
l .
19
20
THEIR RECOLLECTION OR THEIR OPINION. WE WOULD BE
REQUIRED TO TURN THAT OVER TO THE OTHER PARTY AS WELL.
r 21
22
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT HIM READING THE JOURNAL
OF MEDICINE OR HIM READING THE PUBLICATIONS OF OTHER
r 23
24
PEOPLE. THESE ARE STATEMENTS AND WRITINGS THAT
DR. MILLER HIMSELF HAS AUTHORED.
r 25 THEY ARE ALSO THINGS HE HIMSELF AND DEFENSE
r 26
27
COUNSEL BROUGHT OUT IN HIS DIRECT TO BUTTRESS HIS
CREDIBILITY IN TERMS OF BEING A PUBLISHED AUTHOR; IN
28 TERMS OF BEING A SPEAKER AT CONVENTIONS; IN TERMS OF

r
[
36
l
l
1 TEACHING THINGS WITHIN THE DNA FIELD. YOU CAN'T HAVE
2 BOTH. EITHER YOU'VE GOT TO TURN IT OVER OR THAT STUFF l
3 DOESN'T EXIST AT ALL.
4 BUT ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE AS VERY CORE l
5
6
UNDER 1054.3, THESE ARE STATEMENTS OF A WITNESS THAT ARE
RELEVANT TO THE WITNESS'S TESTIMONY.
1
7
8
THE COURT: WELL, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE
SHOULD TABLE UNTIL YOU LOOK AT HIS REPORT. I MIGHT ALSO
1
9 SUGGEST THAT I'M NOT ENTIRELY PERSUADED. l
10 IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT IF THIS WERE TRUE,
11 THEN EVERY PROSECUTION GANG EXPERT OR DNA EXPERT WHO HAS 1
12 EVER GIVEN A TALK TO PROSECUTORS ANYWHERE ABOUT, YOU
13 KNOW, THAT FIELD OR THE EFFECTIVE TECHNIQUES FOR
l
14
15
PRESENTING IT AND THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS TO ASK AND NOT
ASK, THEN ALL THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE TURNED OVER, AND I
l
16 THINK I WOULD HEAR SOME HOWLING FROM THE D.A. 'S OFFICE l
17 IF I MADE AN ORDER LIKE THAT.
18 MR. TROCHA: EXCEPT IT'S ALSO LIKENED TO THE l
19 REQUEST THE DEFENSE HAS MADE IN THIS CASE AND OTHERS
20 WHERE THEY'RE ASKING FOR SDPD'S LAB MANUALS AND THINGS 1
21 OF THAT NATURE, WHICH ARE ALWAYS TURNED OVER, WHICH ARE
22 ALWAYS ORDERED TO BE TURNED OVER.
l
23
24
THE COURT: RIGHT.
GO ABOUT THE TESTING PROCEDURES.
BUT A LAB MANUAL IS HOW WE
IT DOESN'T HAVE
l
25 ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY PRESENTATION AT A SEMINAR TO l
26 PEOPLE ON ONE SIDE OF THE COIN AS TO HOW TO EFFECTIVELY
27 PRESENT THIS MATERIAL. l
28 MR. TROCHA: AGREED. BUT WE ALSO HAVE THIS
l
l
r 37
[
1 PERSON WHO HOLDS A POSITION AT CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES
r 2
3
WHICH IS AKIN TO THE POSITION OF RUNNING THE LABORATORY,
WHICH WE BELIEVE THIS TYPE OF TRAINING MATERIALS WOULD
r 4 FALL UNDER LAB MANUAL TYPE OF
r
L-
5 THE COURT: WELL, AS I SAY, LET'S TABLE IT.
6 I'M NOT ENTIRELY PERSUADED. I THINK YOU GET A SENSE
r 7
8
THAT YOU MAY HAVE SOME PERSUADING TO DO ON THAT ISSUE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU WERE ABOUT TO COMMENT.
[ 9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. JUST FOR THE RECORD,

10 THIS MANUAL I RECEIVED YESTERDAY IN THE MAIL. BEFORE
[ 11 YESTERDAY, I DIDN'T -- ACTUALLY, I TAKE THAT BACK.
r 12
13
THE ONLY REASON I KNOW THIS EXISTS IS BECAUSE
MR. TROCHA POINTED IT OUT IN HIS LETTER TO DR. MILLER.
[ 14 THE COURT: WHAT'S IT CALLED?

15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S CALLED FORENSIC DNA
r 16
17
DEFENSE STRATEGIES.
THE COURT: OKAY.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO I HAVEN'T EVEN READ IT.

19 THE COURT: THIS ISN'T A RULING, BUT IF I WERE
r 20 MR. TROCHA, I'D TRY TO GET THE OFFICE TO ORDER ONE OF
r 21
22
THOSE. AND IF HE DOESN'T GET IT, THEN MAYBE YOU'RE IN A
BETTER POSITION TO ARGUE YOUR MOTION.
[ 23 LET'S SEE IF WE CAN ADDRESS THE MERITS OF THE
24 DOCTOR'S REPORT ONCE BOTH COUNSEL HAVE SEEN THE REPORT.
r 25 IF EITHER OF YOU THINKS THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO

THRASH OUT OTHER THAN ON THE FIRST DAY OF IN LIMINE
26
r 27 MOTIONS, FEEL FREE TO CALL THE CLERK AND AT LEAST I CAN
r 28 MEET WITH THE TWO OF YOU AT SOME POINT AND WE CAN CHAT
[
38
1
1
1 ABOUT IT AND HOLD A HEARING IF NEED BE.
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALSO, I'D JUST ASK THAT IF 1
3 MR. TROCHA IS PLANNING ON REQUESTING A 402 ON
l
4
5
6
DR. MILLER, THAT HE JUST GIVE ME AN E-MAIL OR A PHONE
CALL AND LET ME KNOW SO I CAN WORK THAT OUT.
MR. TROCHA: ABSOLUTELY.
,
1
7 THE COURT: IN FACT, AS SOON AS THAT

l
8 DETERMINATION IS MADE, PLEASE NOTIFY MR. SPEREDELOZZI,
9 IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, MR. TROCHA, AND THAT WAY IT WILL l
10 HELP US SCHEDULE THINGS STARTING ON THE 22ND AS WELL.
11 NOW, LET'S SEE, WE ORDERED TWO WITNESSES BACK 1
12 THIS MORNING FOR THE 22ND. WHAT ELSE DO WE NEED TO
13 ADDRESS TODAY?
l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
WARRANTS ON SOME WITNESSES.
WELL, I'D LIKE TO GET
BUT BEFORE I DO THAT, I
l
16 JUST WANTED TO STATE ON THE RECORD SOME ITEMS OF l
17 DISCOVERY THAT I BELIEVE ARE OUTSTANDING, FROM OUR POINT
18 OF VIEW, AND THAT IS, ONE, THE AUDIO RECORDING THAT'S l
19 REFERENCED IN THE REPORT OF DETECTIVE LAMBERT, A REPORT
20 DATED SEPTEMBER 13, 2008. l
21
22
IT REFERENCES TWO AUDIO RECORDINGS. ONE IS THE
ACTUAL 30-MINUTE RECORDING OF HIS INTERVIEW WITH GLENNYS
l
23
24
BERUMEN, AND THE SECOND IS A VOICE MAIL LEFT ON SERGEANT
HOWIE'S VOICE MAIL SYSTEM BY THE WITNESS, GLENNYS
l
25 BERUMEN. I WOULD LIKE A COPY OF THAT, IF AVAILABLE. l
26 ALSO, I'M ASKING THAT THEY TURN OVER CONTACT
27 INFORMATION, IF THEY HAVE IT -- THAT'S THE l
28 PROSECUTION -- OF CARLOS RIOS. HE'S A WITNESS WHO WE'RE
l
1
[
39
[
1
r
GOING TO NEED TO TALK TO ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE SAW
2 MR. GUTIERREZ AT THE QUINCEANERA THE NIGHT IN QUESTION.
3 AND I'D ALSO REQUEST THAT WE GET THE BOOKING PHOTO FOR
[ 4 JOSUE GUTIERREZ HERNANDEZ SO THAT WE CAN SHOW THAT TO
[ 5
6
MR. RIOS.
THE COURT: BOOKING PHOTO OF WHOM, PLEASE?
[ 7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JOSUE GUTIERREZ HERNANDEZ.

8 HE'S THE GENTLEMAN WHO SUPPOSEDLY MADE THESE STATEMENTS
[ 9 TO MS. BERUMEN.
10 THE COURT: THIS IS THE JOSUE WE'VE BEEN
[ 11 TALKING ABOUT?
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, IT IS.
[ 13 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, DO YOU WISH TO RESPOND?
[ 14 MR. TROCHA: NO. I THINK THESE ARE ALL

15 REASONABLE REQUESTS, AND I'LL ACCOMMODATE THEM AS BEST I
r 16
17
CAN. I THINK WE CAN GET THESE WITHIN THE NEXT 48 HOURS.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
[ 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ANYTHING FURTHER?
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
LIKE WARRANTS ON.
JUST WITNESSES THAT I WOULD
r 21
22
THE COURT: LET'S ADDRESS THAT NOW, PLEASE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OR, ACTUALLY, SOME OF THEM
r 23
24
ARE EASIER THAN OTHERS.
VELASQUEZ, HE'S AN INMATE.
THIS GENTLEMAN, MARCO
I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS
r 25
26
PRODUCED THIS MORNING BY THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT.
HE WAS SUBPOENAED FOR THIS MORNING. I DIDN'T
c 27 SEE HIM THERE. I DON'T KNOW IF THE COURT CAN ORDER THE
28 SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT TO PRODUCE HIM. HE MAY BE BEING

r
r
40
l
l
1 TRANSFERRED TO STATE PRISON SOON.
2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE ANY l
3 IDENTIFIER ON HIM, A BOOKING NUMBER?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. BOOKING NUMBER l
5
6
10778400, DATE OF BIRTH 3/17/1991.
THE COURT: AND YOU BELIEVE HE'S EN ROUTE, OR
1
7
8
WILL BE ULTIMATELY, TO STATE PRISON.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YEAH. I THINK WE GOT HIM
l
9 SUBPOENAED AT THE JAIL THE NIGHT BEFORE HE WAS SUPPOSED l
10 TO BE TRANSFERRED TO DONOVAN.
11 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'LL SEE IF WE CAN FIND 1
12 OUT -- HOW IS THE BEST WAY TO DO THIS? I'M OPEN FOR
13 THOUGHTS. IF I JUST ISSUE AN ORDER TO PRODUCE HIM IN
l
14
15
OUR COURT ON A CERTAIN DAY, WILL THE SHERIFFS HOLD HIM?
MR. TROCHA: YOU HAVE TO DO AN ADDITIONAL
l
16 REQUEST TO HOLD. IT'S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT ONLY HALF l
17 THE TIME THAT WORKS. SO IF HE DOES GET TRANSFERRED TO
18 STATE PRISON, YOU NEED A TRANSPORTATION ORDER, AND THAT l
19 HAS TO BE DONE THREE WEEKS BEFORE YOU NEED HIM.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO IF WE GET HIM THREE WEEKS l
21
22
FROM TODAY'S DATE, THEN THAT SHOULD WORK.
THE COURT: DEPUTY TRAPP, DO WE KNOW IF HE'S
l
23
24
HERE LOCALLY OR WAS PRODUCED TODAY?
THE BAILIFF: I JUST CHECKED, AND THEY HAD NO
l
25 WITNESSES IN CUSTODY RELATED TO THIS CASE. l
26 THE COURT: I'LL ASK THE CLERK TO RUN UP THE
27 SCREEN AND LET'S SEE IF HE'S STILL HERE. l
28 THE CLERK: HE'S BEEN RELEASED TO THE D.O.C.
l
l
[
41
r: 1 THE COURT: HE'S BEEN RELEASED TO THE
r 2
3
DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.
DO WE KNOW WHEN?
[ 4 THE CLERK: RELEASED ON 3/8, YOUR HONOR.
r 5
6
THE COURT: WHEN WAS HE SERVED?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SERVED MARCH 4TH.
[ 7 THE COURT: WELL, I CAN IMAGINE THAT THERE'S

8 NOT MUCH HE CAN DO WHEN THEY ROLL HIM UP AND TELL HIM TO
r 9
10
GO TO STATE PRISON.
MINUTE.
HE CAN'T REALLY SAY, "WAIT A
I'VE GOT TO GO TO COURT. I'VE BEEN
[ 11 SUBPOENAED."
12 MR. TROCHA, AS A FRIEND OF THE COURT, WHAT DO
[ 13 WE NEED TO DO TO GET HIM BACK FROM THE CDCR?
[ 14 MR. TROCHA: I NEED AN ORDER TO PRODUCE AND A

15 TRANSPORTATION ORDER THAT HAS TO BE FILED WITH THE
r 16
17
SAN DIEGO SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT AND I BELIEVE THE
DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS TO GET HIM OUT.
[ 18 FORTUNATELY, IF HE'S JUST BEEN PUT IN PRISON,
r 19 MOST LIKELY HE WOULD BE AT DONOVAN FOR THE NEXT 90 DAYS.

20 THE COURT: THAT'S TRUE.
r 21
22 FORMS FOR?
OKAY. ARE THESE ORDERS THAT YOUR OFFICE HAS
[ 23 MR. TROCHA: THEY ARE. IF THE COURT IS ASKING
24 FOR US TO GET INFORMATION TO THE DEFENSE, AND, IF THAT

[ 25 DOESN'T WORK, TO HELP GET THE GUY HERE, WE WOULD BE
26 WILLING TO ACCOMMODATE THAT.
[ 27 THE COURT: WELL, IF YOU'D GIVE HIM THE FORM
28 ORDERS. I DON'T KNOW -- I MEAN, MR. SPEREDELOZZI,

[
r
l
1 UNLESS YOU HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE --
42
, ~
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, I HAVE NOT. 1

3 THE COURT: AND I OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW THE
4 PROCEDURES. IF THERE ARE FORMS THAT THE D.A. USES, IF l
1
,
5 YOU WOULD BE SO KIND, MR. TROCHA, AS TO JUST E-MAIL
6 THOSE AS WORD DOCUMENTS OVER TO MR. SPEREDELOZZI SO THAT
7 HE CAN PREPARE THE ORDERS, BRING THEM HERE EX PARTE,
1
8 I'LL SIGN THEM. IT TAKES THREE WEEKS, I'M HEARING, SO
9 YOU'D NEED A THREE-WEEK LEAD TIME. 1
10 LET'S TRY TO REASON THIS OUT. IF WE START
11 TRIAL ON THE 22ND -- YOU ALL HAVE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD 1
12 BEFORE. HOW LONG ARE OUR IN LIMINE MOTIONS LIKELY TO
13 TAKE?
l
14
15
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
TWO DAYS.
OKAY. SO MAYBE WE'RE STARTING TO
l
16 PICK A JURY, IF WE GET A JURY PANEL TO COME IN ON l
17 MR. TROCHA: WHAT WE CAN DO, YOUR HONOR, IS ASK
18 FOR THE 22ND, OR WE CAN ALTERNATIVELY ASK FOR THE 29TH, l
19 AND ONCE HE'S HERE, WE HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF HOLDING
20 ON TO HIM ONCE HE'S IN THE SHERIFF'S SYSTEM. l
21
22
THE COURT: JURY SELECTION -- IT'S A LIFE CASE.
HOW LONG DID JURY SELECTION TAKE YOU LAST TIME?
1
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MR. TROCHA:
A DAY.
A LITTLE OVER A DAY, I BELIEVE, SO
l
25 ANOTHER TWO DAYS. l
26 THE COURT: SO MAYBE BY MIDWEEK, THE 30TH OR
27 SO, WE'LL MAYBE HAVE A JURY. THE PEOPLE'S EVIDENCE IS l
28 GOING TO TAKE TWO WEEKS.
l
l
r 43
r 1 MY THOUGHT IS THAT THE LESS COMPLICATED IT IS
r 2
3
FOR THE JAIL AND THE CDCR, THE BETTER. AND IF WE JUST
PICK A DATE CERTAIN THAT IS APT TO GIVE THEM SUFFICIENT
[ 4 TIME AND STILL GIVE US SOME LEEWAY, THAT SEEMS TO ME TO
5 BE MOST LIKELY TO HAVE THE HIGHEST CHANCE OF SUCCESS.
r 6 SO MY THOUGHT IS THAT IF YOU COULD HAVE YOUR ORDER GET
[ 7 HIM HERE THE 29TH OR EVEN THE 5TH OF APRIL, THAT WILL
8 GIVE THEM PLENTY OF LEAD TIME TO GET HIM HERE.
r 9
10 THIS:
I GUESS, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHAT I'LL SUGGEST IS
MR. TROCHA IS KIND ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU THE FORMS.
[ 11 YOU NEED ABOUT A THREE-WEEK LEAD TIME. PICK A DATE WHEN
12 YOU KNOW WE'RE GOING TO BE IN TRIAL TO HAVE HIM PRODUCED
[ 13 HERE, AND WE'LL JUST HAVE HIM PRODUCED HERE. LET US
r 14
15
KNOW WHAT IT IS, AND MAKE THE ORDERS CONFORM TO THAT
DATE AND GET IT TO THE APPROPRIATE PEOPLE, AND WE'LL DO
r 16
17
OUR BEST TO GET HIM HERE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. AND
r 18 THIS WAS AN ISSUE IN THE LAST TRIAL, AND THE WAY WE
r 19
20
RESOLVED IT THEN IS THAT AT SOME POINTS WE HAD TO TAKE
WITNESSES OUT OF ORDER JUST SO THAT WE COULD --
r 21
22
THE COURT: WE'LL DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO.
THINK ONCE WE GET HIM HERE, IF I PUT A HOLD ON HIM, I
I
r 23
24
CAN KEEP HIM HERE.
STATE CUSTODY.
BUT WE NEED TO GET HIM BACK INTO
[ 25 MR. TROCHA: RIGHT.

26 THE COURT: OKAY. WHO IS YOUR NEXT WITNESS?
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SIRIA FORD. SHE WAS A
r 28 NO-SHOW THIS MORNING. I CALLED OUTSIDE OF DEPARTMENT
[
1
1 11. SHE WAS SUBPOENAED TO DEPARTMENT 11.
44
,
2 THE COURT: SPELL, PLEASE. l
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: S-I-R-I-A, F-0-R-D.
l
4
5
6
THE COURT:
YOU DON'T, THAT'S FINE.
DO YOU HAVE A D.O.B. ON HER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
IF
DO YOU HAVE PROOF OF SERVICE?
YES, I DO.
,
7
8 BAILIFF.
THE COURT: MAY I ASK THAT YOU HAND THAT TO THE
l
9 AND WHO'S THE NEXT WITNESS? l
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DIANA BANUELOS. NO-SHOW
1
11
12
13
THIS MORNING, DEPARTMENT 11.
THE COURT: SPELL, PLEASE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: D-I-A-N-A,
, I
14
15
B-A-N-U-E-L-0-S.
THE COURT: AND MAY I SEE THE PROOF OF SERVICE.
l
16 NEXT WITNESS? l
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE NEXT TWO WITNESSES ARE
18 CARLOS BUENDIA OR HESNEYDA BUENDIA. PRAGMATICALLY, I'M l
19 ONLY GOING TO CALL ONE. I THINK THEY'RE PART OF THE
20 PEOPLE'S CASE. l
21
22
MR. TROCHA: CORRECT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO IT'S NICE THAT WE
1
23
24
SUBPOENAED THEM, BUT I WON'T ASK FOR WARRANTS IF I GET A
CONFIRMATION THAT THEY WILL BE CALLED BY THE PEOPLE.
1
25 MR. TROCHA: I WOULD SUGGEST ASKING FOR l
26 WARRANTS FOR WHOEVER HE WANTS JUST IN CASE THERE IS A
27 MIX-UP. BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE WITH MS. BUENDIA, SHE'S l
28 VERY COOPERATIVE.
l
l
r 45
r
1 THE COURT: MAY I HAVE THE SPELLING OF BOTH OF
r 2 THESE, PLEASE.
3
r 4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: STARTING WITH HESNEYDA,
H-E-S-N-E-Y-D-A, BUENDIA IS B-U-E-N-D-I-A.
r 5
6
THE COURT: AND THE NEXT ONE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CARLOS BUENDIA, C-A-R-L-0-S,
[ 7 SAME LAST NAME.

8 THE COURT: MY SENSE IS WE SHOULD ISSUE THE
[ 9 WARRANTS. IF YOU WANT, I CAN HOLD THE WARRANTS AS TO
10 THEM.
[ 11 MR. TROCHA: I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.
12 THE COURT: BUT I AGREE THAT LET'S USE THE
[ 13 BELTS AND SUSPENDERS HERE.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OKAY.
ALL RIGHT. WHO ELSE?
[ 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS ONE IS MR. MENDOZA.

17 HE'S IN JUVENILE CUSTODY, AND THEY WILL NOT PRODUCE HIM
r 18 WITHOUT AN ORDER. THAT'S PROBABLY WHY HE DIDN'T GET
19 PRODUCED TODAY, ALTHOUGH HE WAS SUBPOENAED FOR TODAY.
r 20 THE COURT: FULL NAME?
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
NAME MENDOZA, M-E-N-D-0-Z-A.
GREGORY, G-R-E-G-0-R-Y, LAST
[ 23 THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE A D.O.B. ON HIM?

24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DO. I DON'T HAVE IT
[ 25 HANDY.
r 26 THE COURT: BUT HE'S IN JUVENILE CUSTODY, YOU

27 BELIEVE?
[ 28
r
46
l
l
1 THE COURT: I SEE MR. TROCHA NODDING. LOCALLY?
2 MR. TROCHA: I THINK HE'S OUT AT Y.O.U., WHICH l
3 IS EAST MESA NOW.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND I THINK A SIMPLE ORDER 1
5
6
TO THEM, WE CAN GET HIM PRODUCED.
WEEKS FOR HIM AS WELL.
AND I CAN DO THREE
l
7
8
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE AS TO HOW
LONG HE'S GOING TO BE IN THE CUSTODY OF THE JUVENILE
l
9 AUTHORITIES? l
10 MR. TROCHA: JUVENILE PROBATION, THEY CONTACTED
11 ME ABOUT IT, AND THEY SAID HE'S GOT SOMETHING CALLED A l
12 THOUSAND DAYS ON THE BOOKS. HE DOESN'T HAVE A RELEASE
13 DATE, A HARD RELEASE DATE SUCH AS AN ADULT PRISONER
l
14
15
WOULD HAVE, BUT THEIR BELIEF IS THAT HE WOULD BE IN
Y.O.U. FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 90 DAYS.
l
16 THE COURT: I KNOW SOME OF THOSE PROGRAMS, THE
1
17 JUVENILE PROGRAM ITSELF HAS THE AUTHORITY TO
18 DISCRETIONARILY RELEASE PEOPLE AFTER THEY'VE ACHIEVED l
19 CERTAIN GOALS IN THE PROGRAM.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MY INKLING IS THAT THEY'RE l
21 NOT GOING TO RELEASE THIS GUY.
22 THE COURT: THEN WHAT DO WE NEED TO GET HIM
l
23
24
HERE?
MR. TROCHA: JUST AN ORDER TO PRODUCE.
l
l
25
26
27
28
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE'LL DO --
ROSIE, YOU'RE FROWNING, ADDRESSING THE CLERK.
THE CLERK: I'M ONLY FROWNING, YOUR HONOR,
BECAUSE IT'S PROBATION, NOT THE SHERIFFS THAT HAVE
,
l
l
r 47
r 1 HIM.
r 2 MR. TROCHA: WHAT PROBATION HAS TOLD -- IT'S
r 3
4
JUVENILE PROBATION. WHAT THEY'VE TOLD ME IS THEY JUST
NEED AN ORDER FROM THE COURT TO PRODUCE HIM, WHICH I
[ 5
6
UNDERSTOOD TO BE AN ORDER TO PRODUCE.
JUVENILE.
BUT, AGAIN, IT'S
[ 7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE LAST TIME I HAD HIM

8 PRODUCED, JUDGE DANIELSEN SIGNED A SIMPLE ORDER THAT I
r 9 HAD DRAFTED UP, AND I FAXED IT TO SOMEBODY AT THAT
r 10
11
12
FACILITY AND IT WORKED.
THE COURT:
I'LL BE GLAD TO SIGN IT.
WILL YOU DRAFT ME SUCH AN ORDER AND
r 13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO I'M GOING TO STOP BY
r 14
15
EX PARTE TOMORROW TO TAKE CARE OF ALL THIS.
THE COURT: NO PROBLEM.
[ 16 ANY OTHER ONES?

17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS VICTOR DOMINGUEZ, HE
r 18 WAS A NO-SHOW THIS MORNING. THIS IS THE DEFENDANT'S

19 BROTHER. I'VE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH HIM. HE'S NOT GOING
[ 20 TO ABSCOND, BUT I DON'T THINK HE REALIZED HE HAD TO BE
r 21
22
THERE THIS MORNING.
THE COURT: VICTOR DOMINGUEZ?
[ 23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BUT I WOULD ASK THAT WE

24 ISSUE AND HOLD A WARRANT FOR NOW, JUST IN AN ABUNDANCE
r 25 OF CAUTION.
26 THE COURT: MAY I SEE THE PROOFS OF SERVICE ON
[ 27 EVERYBODY WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE.
r 28 AND DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER ONE?
r
48
l
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE MORE, YES.
2 THE COURT: OKAY. LET'S GO THROUGH THEM. l
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. ALVARA, HE HAS APPEARED.
4 HE WAS ORDERED BACK. RAUL AGUILAR WAS A NO-SHOW THIS 1
5 MORNING. JOSUE GUTIERREZ WAS A NO-SHOW, BUT I ASSUME
1
~
6 THAT THE PROSECUTION IS GOING TO WANT A WARRANT ON HIM

7 AS WELL. EVELYN QUINTERO WAS A NO-SHOW.
l
8
9
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: Q-U-I-N-T-E-R-0 -- ACTUALLY
, I
10 0-S, QUINTEROS.
11 THE COURT: AND EVELYN. l
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: E-V-E-L-Y-N.
13 THE COURT: AND JOSUE IS SPELLED HOW?
l
14
15
MR. TROCHA: J-0-S-U-E.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CHRISTIAN AVITA,
l
16 C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N, A-V-I-T-A. HE IS A JUVENILE. HE WAS 1
17 NOT PERSONALLY SERVED, SO -- WE DID SERVE HIS GUARDIAN,
18 CLEMENTINA FIGUEROA, AT HER HOUSE WHERE HE LIVES, SO -- l
19 BUT HE WAS NOT PERSONALLY SERVED. THE PROOF OF SERVICE
20
21
22
REFLECTS THAT SHE ACCEPTED SERVICE ON HIS BEHALF.
THE COURT:
HAVE TO BE SERVED?
DOESN'T THE GUARDIAN OR THE PARENT ,
l
J
23
24
MR. TROCHA: YES, OR THE WARRANT, I THINK, GOES
OUT FOR THE PARENT OR GUARDIAN AND THE MINOR.
l
25 THE COURT: I THINK THAT'S TRUE. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU WANT HER NAME
27 SPELLED? l
28 THE COURT: PLEASE.
1
l
r 49
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CLEMENTINA,
r 2 C-L-E-M-E-N-T-I-N-A, FIGUEROA, F-I-G-U-E-R-0-A.
r 3
4
THE COURT: WHO ELSE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AGAIN, RANDY BARNES, ANOTHER
r 5
6
WITNESS WHO DIDN'T SHOW UP.
EITHER.
HE'S NOT GOING TO ABSCOND
HE'S A FRIENDLY DEFENSE WITNESS. HE PROBABLY
[ 7 DIDN'T REALIZE HE HAD TO BE HERE THIS MORNING. I'D ASK

8 THAT HIS WARRANT BE HELD AS WELL.
r 9 THE COURT: WOULD YOU HAND ALL THOSE PROOFS OF

10 SERVICE TO DEPUTY TRAPP, PLEASE.
r 11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M NOT HANDING YOU
r 12
13
MR. ALVARA BECAUSE HE WAS ORDERED BACK.
THE COURT: ADDRESSING THESE WITNESSES IN THE
l 14
15
ORDER IN WHICH THEY WERE DISCUSSED, I'M HANDED THE
SUBPOENA FOR WITNESS SIRIA FORD. THIS SUBPOENA APPEARS
[ 16 TO BE REGULAR AND FAIR ON ITS FACE. IT CONTAINS A PROOF

17 OF SERVICE SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY WHICH
[ 18 VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE ON FEBRUARY 27, 2011.
19 APPEARANCE DATE WAS TODAY'S DATE AT 9:00A.M. IN
[ 20 DEPARTMENT 11.
r 21
22
WITH RESPECT TO DIANA BANUELOS, I FIND A
SIMILAR SUBPOENA. I FIND A SIMILAR PROOF OF SERVICE.
r 23
24
PROOF OF SERVICE STATES THAT PERSONAL SERVICE WAS MADE
FEBRUARY 27, 2011, SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY BY
r 25
26
THE SERVER. THE HEARING DATE IS TODAY'S DATE, 9:00
A.M., DEPARTMENT 11.
[ 27 WITH RESPECT TO HESNEYDA BUENDIA, I SEE A
28 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A CERTIFICATE OF PERSONAL
-r
r
50
l
l
1 SERVICE VERIFYING PERSONAL SERVICE ON FEBRUARY 27, 2011.
2 WITH RESPECT TO CARLOS BUENDIA, THERE IS A l
3 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE DATED
4 FEBRUARY 27, 2011. IT IS SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF 1
5
6
PERJURY BY THE SERVER.
WITH RESPECT TO GREGORY MENDOZA, THERE'S A
l
7 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE VERIFYING
l
8 PERSONAL SERVICE FEBRUARY 23RD, 2011, SIGNED UNDER
9 PENALTY OF PERJURY BY THE SERVER. l
10 WITH RESPECT TO VICTOR DOMINGUEZ, THERE IS A
11 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE. IT l
12 VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE FEBRUARY 22ND, 2011. IT IS
13 SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY BY THE SERVER.
l
14
15
WITH RESPECT TO RAUL AGUILAR, THERE IS A
SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A CERTIFICATE OF PERSONAL
l
16 SERVICE. IT VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE ON FEBRUARY 16, l
17 2011. IT IS SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY BY THE
18 SERVER. l
19 WITH RESPECT TO JOSUE GUTIERREZ, THERE IS A
20 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE. IT l
21 VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE FEBRUARY 15, 2011. IT IS
l
23
24
WITH RESPECT TO EVELYN QUINTERO, THERE IS A
SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE. IT
l
25 VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE ON FEBRUARY 16, 2011. IT IS l
27 WITH RESPECT TO CHRISTIAN AVITA, THERE IS A l
28 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE. IT
l
l
[
51
r 1 VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE ON FEBRUARY 16, 2011. IT IS

[ 2 SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY BY THE SERVER.
3 WITH RESPECT TO RANDY BARNES, THERE IS A
[ 4 SIMILAR SUBPOENA. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE. IT
r 5
6
VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE ON FEBRUARY 16, 2011.
SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY BY THE SERVER OF THAT
IT IS
r 7
8
PROCESS.
I ALSO, FOR THE RECORD, WILL STATE THAT I HAVE
r 9 A SIMILAR SUBPOENA FOR INMATE MARCO VELASQUEZ LISTED BY

10 BOOKING NUMBER AND D.O.B. THERE IS A CERTIFICATE OF
[ 11 SERVICE THAT VERIFIES PERSONAL SERVICE MARCH 4, 2011, IN
r 12
13
THE PRESENCE OF A SAN DIEGO COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTY
WHO'S NAMED IN THE CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE. THIS
[ 14 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE IS SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF

15 PERJURY.
r 16
17
I FIND THAT EACH OF THE SUBPOENAS AND
CERTIFICATES OF SERVICE APPEAR REGULAR AND FAIR ON THEIR
r 18 FACE. THESE CONSTITUTE LAWFUL ORDERS. I MAKE A PRIMA
r 19
20
FACIE FINDING THESE ORDERS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED.
COUNSEL'S REPRESENTATIONS, SETTING ASIDE MR. MARCO
I ACCEPT
21 VELASQUEZ FOR A MOMENT, THAT NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WERE

r 22 PRESENT IN DEPARTMENT 11 AT 9:00 A.M. AS ORDERED.
r 23
24
THE COURT FINDS A PRIMA FACIE SHOWING HAS BEEN
MADE THAT EACH IS IN CONTEMPT OF THESE ORDERS. A BENCH
[ 25 WARRANT AND WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT WILL ISSUE AS TO EACH.
26 THERE WILL BE NO BAIL SET AT THIS TIME WITHOUT PREJUDICE
r 27 AS TO EACH.
r 28 NOW, WHICH ONES DO YOU WANT HELD?
r
52
l
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'D ASK THAT RANDY BARNES BE
2 HELD, VICTOR DOMINGUEZ BE HELD, HESNEYDA BUENDIA BE HELD l
3 AND CARLOS BUENDIA BE HELD.
4 THE COURT: NOW, WHO WAS THE ONE THAT WAS ALSO l
5
6
A PEOPLE'S WITNESS WHERE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN CONFUSION
AS TO THE DATES?
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
THAT'S THE TWO BUENDIAS.
THANK YOU.
l
9 MR. TROCHA, ANY CONCERN THAT ANY OF THE OTHERS l
10 SHOULD BE HELD?
11 MR. TROCHA: NO. l
12
13
THE COURT: OKAY. THESE WARRANTS WILL ISSUE
FORTHWITH AS TO ALL OF THESE NAMED INDIVIDUALS WITH THE
1
14
15
EXCEPTION OF THE FOUR JUST MENTIONED.
HAVE THIS RIGHT:
LET ME BE SURE I
RANDY BARNES, VICTOR DOMINGUEZ,
l
16
17
HESNEYDA BUENDIA AND CARLOS BUENDIA.
WARRANTS WILL BE HELD UNTIL -- WHEN?
AS TO THOSE, THE
FIRST DAY OF
l
18 TRIAL? l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR.
20 MR. TROCHA: THAT'S ACCEPTABLE. l
21 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. FIRST DAY OF TRIAL,
22 WHICH WILL BE NOW MARCH 22ND, 9:00 A.M. IN DEPARTMENT
l
23
24
48. SO AS TO THOSE FOUR, THE WARRANTS ARE HELD UNTIL
THAT DATE. AS TO THE OTHERS, THE WARRANTS ARE ISSUED
l
25 AND PUT IN THE SYSTEM. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI WILL GET ME EX PARTE THE
27 TRANSPORT ORDER NECESSARY, AN ORDER TO PRODUCE TO GET l
28 MR. VELASQUEZ HERE, AND I WILL SIGN THAT. AND THE SAME
l
l
[
53
r 1 WITH RESPECT TO THE JUVENILE COURT ORDER WITH RESPECT TO
r 2
3
GREGORY MENDOZA.
THESE WARRANTS WILL BE ENTERED INTO THE SYSTEM

r 4 IN RELATIVELY SHORT ORDER. I SUGGEST THAT COUNSEL MAY
r 5
6
WISH TO CONTACT THESE WITNESSES AND LET THEM KNOW ABOUT
THE COURT'S ACTIONS, AND IF A WITNESS DISPLAYS A BETTER
r 7
8
ATTITUDE TO YOU, COUNSEL, THEN YOU CAN COME BACK AND ASK
ME TO HOLD THE WARRANT AS TO ANY OF THESE WITNESSES THAT
r 9 YOU OBTAIN COOPERATION FROM.

10 OTHERWISE, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS SOME OR
[ 11 CONCEIVABLY ALL OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE ARRESTED. WE'LL
r 12
13
BE HAVING HEARINGS ON EACH ONE AS TO WHETHER THEY SHOULD
HAVE BAIL SET AND WHETHER THEY'RE MATERIAL WITNESSES AND
r 14
15
APPOINTING COUNSEL FOR THEM AND SO FORTH. SO I MIGHT
SUGGEST THAT YOU TRY TO CONTACT EACH OF THEM, AND IF YOU
r 16
17
ARE SATISFIED THAT THEY HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT, THEN LET ME
KNOW THAT AND WE WILL TAKE APPROPRIATE ACTION.
r 18 I'LL RETURN THE PROOFS OF SERVICE TO YOU FOR
r 19
20
YOUR USE LATER ON IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, IF NEEDED.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
AT THIS JUNCTURE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ANYTHING FURTHER
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO, YOUR HONOR.
MR. TROCHA?
r 25 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU.

26 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE, THEN, STAND IN RECESS
r 27 UNTIL MARCH 22, 2011, 9:00 A.M. THIS DEPARTMENT. WE
r 28 WON'T HAVE A DRESS-OUT ORDER FOR THE FIRST FEW DAYS, BUT
r
54
1
l
1 WE NEED HIM DRESSED OUT AFTER THAT. WE'LL ADDRESS THE
2 IN LIMINE MOTIONS. l
3 I WILL LET COUNSEL KNOW THE 25TH I HAVE
4 CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, MADAM CLERK --A PRETTY FULL 1
5
6
SLATE OF SENTENCING MATTERS, SO I SUGGEST FRIDAY, THE
25TH, WE BE DARK. THE 31ST IS A THURSDAY, IT'S A
l
7
8
HOLIDAY, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE DARK FRIDAY, THE 1ST, AS
WELL.
l
9 SO MY OPTIMISM IS THAT WE WILL CONCLUDE THE l
10 IN LIMINE MOTIONS. IF WE'RE VERY LUCKY, WE WILL GET
11 THEM DONE THE 22ND AND THE 23RD AND START PICKING A JURY l
12 THE 24TH. I'M ALSO OPEN -- OBVIOUSLY IF THE IN LIMINE
13 MOTIONS RUN INTO THE 24TH, WE'LL START PICKING THE JURY
l
14
15
ON THE 28TH. WE CAN GAUGE THAT AS IT GOES ALONG.
AND IF COUNSEL HAVE A PARTICULARIZED REASON,
l
16 INVESTIGATIVE PREPARATION OR OTHERWISE, THAT YOU PREFER l
17 TO START PICKING A JURY ON THE 28TH, I'M HAPPY TO
18 ENTERTAIN THAT WHEN WE TALK AGAIN ON THE 22ND. l
19 ANYTHING FURTHER FROM ANY COUNSEL?
l
22
23
THE COURT:
BE IN RECESS.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, ALL. WE'LL
,
. j
24 (AT 2:44 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL
25 TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.) l
26 Ill
27 Ill 1
28 Ill
1
l
r
r STATE OF CALIFORNIA)
. ss
r- COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO)
r I, PEGGY C. SIINO, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER OF
r THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, COUNTY OF

SAN DIEGO, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT PAGES 9 THROUGH 54,
r INCLUSIVE, CONTAIN A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE

PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER ON
r TUESDAY, MARCH 8, 2011.
r DATED: AUGUST 15, 2011.
r
r f2~ C.~-;)
r C. SIINO
CSR NO. 6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
RESPONDENT, ) COURT OF APPEAL
) NO. D060019
vs . )
)
FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ, ) SUPERIOR COURT
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT. )
)

VOLUME 3
MARCH 22, 2011
PAGES 55 THROUGH 65
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT:
REPORTED BY: PEGGY C . SIINO, CSR NO. 6263

T

)
r
OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACVSOO
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________
DEFENDANT. ) )
MARCH 22, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL
r 5752 OBERLIN DRIVE, SUITE 106

r
r
r
r 55
r
~
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2011; 9:51 AM
r 2
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING, LADIES
r 4 AND GENTLEMEN. THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
r 5
6
CASE SCD230596.
THIS IS
r 7
8
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT THIS IS AN
EX PARTE PROCEEDING CONCERNING WITNESSES SUBPOENAED BY
r 9 THE DEFENSE. THE CASE IS ON FOR TRIAL THIS MORNING.

10 THE COURT HAS MET WITH BOTH COUNSEL IN AN UNREPORTED
r 11 CHAMBERS CONFERENCE AND HAS AGREED TO TRAIL THE TRIAL
12 ONE DAY, THIS AT THE REQUEST OF THE PROSECUTION FOR
r 13 PERSONAL REASONS RELATING TO FAMILY ILLNESS.
r 14
15
I THEREFORE ORDER THAT THE TRIAL WILL BEGIN
TOMORROW, WHICH WILL BE MARCH 23RD, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.
r 16
17
AT THAT TIME WE'LL BEGIN WITH THE MOTIONS IN LIMINE, AND
IN ALL PROBABILITY, BEGIN JURY SELECTION THE FOLLOWING
r 18 DAY.
r 19
20
COUNSEL FOR THE PROSECUTION, MR. TROCHA, WAS
PRESENT IN THAT UNREPORTED CONFERENCE. HE HAS BEEN
r 21
22
EXCUSED TO RESPOND TO THAT SITUATION I MENTIONED A
MOMENT AGO.
r 23
24
MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED.
BEEN RETURNED TO CUSTODY.
HE HAS
WE ARE CONVENED, THEREFORE,
r 25 TODAY AT THIS TIME SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF SECURING
r 26
27
THE ATTENDANCE OF NECESSARY DEFENSE WITNESSES. DEFENSE
COUNSEL, MR. MATTHEW SPEREDELOZZI, IS PRESENT ON BEHALF
r 28 OF MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r
56
l
l
1 MR. SPERED~LOZZI, GOOD MORNING AGAIN. I
2 UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF WITNESSES THAT YOU l
3 WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ORDERED BACK FOR APRIL THE 5TH. IF
4 MY NOTES ARE CORRECT, THOSE WITNESSES ARE MR. TOMAS l
5
6
LOPEZ, MR. RONALD MARTINEZ, MS. CAROL MARTINEZ AND
MS. EVELYN QUINTEROS. DO I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY?
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
THAT IS CORRECT, YOUR HONOR.
ALL RIGHT. WHO IS MR. TOMAS LOPEZ?
l
9 MR. LOPEZ: HERE. l
10 THE COURT: MR. LOPEZ, THANK YOU FOR BEING
11 HERE, SIR, AND GOOD MORNING. l
12 WHO IS MR. RONALD MARTINEZ?
13 MR. MARTINEZ: HERE.
l
14
15 YOU.
THE COURT: THANK YOU, SIR. GOOD MORNING TO
l
16 MS. CAROL MARTINEZ?
l
17 THANK YOU, MA'AM. GOOD MORNING.
18 AND MS. EVELYN QUINTEROS? l
19 THANK YOU, MA'AM. GOOD MORNING.
20 I APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT YOU ALL ARE HERE, l
21
22
EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE HERE UNDER A COURT ORDER.
GOING TO TRY TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF TIMES THAT YOU
WE'RE
l
23
24
HAVE TO COME TO COURT. I AM HOPEFUL THAT THE NEXT TIME
YOU COME TO COURT, WE'LL BE TAKING YOUR TESTIMONY OR
l
25 ABOUT READY TO TAKE YOUR TESTIMONY. l
26 WHAT I'M GOING TO DO IS TO ORDER EACH OF YOU TO
27 RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW, l
28 DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, ON
l
l
r 57
r 1 APRIL THE 5TH, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M.
r 2 MR. LOPEZ, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
r 3
4
MR. LOPEZ:
THE COURT:
YES.
MR. MARTINEZ, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
5 MR. MARTINEZ: YES.
r 6 THE COURT: MS. MARTINEZ, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
r 7
8
MS. MARTINEZ:
THE COURT:
YES.
AND, MS. QUINTEROS, DO YOU
r 9 UNDERSTAND?
10 MS. QUINTEROS: YES.
r 11 THE COURT: OKAY. THIS IS A COURT ORDER. I
12 KNOW THAT YOU ALL ARE HERE. I UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT A
r 13 HAPPY OCCASION FOR YOU TO BE HERE, BUT I DO WANT YOU TO
r 14
15
UNDERSTAND AS WELL THAT IF YOU FAIL TO APPEAR ON THAT
NEW DATE, THEN A BENCH WARRANT AND WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT
r 16
17
WILL BE ISSUED FOR YOU.
AND AS YOU HEARD THE CLERK MENTION, WE ALREADY
r 18 HAVE SOME WITNESSES WHO ARE IN CUSTODY, AND THEY WILL BE
r 19
20
HELD IN CUSTODY UNTIL THEIR TESTIMONY IS NEEDED.
ACCEPTING THAT YOU WON'T BE AMONG THOSE PEOPLE, AND,
WE ARE
r 21
22
THEREFORE, I'M ORDERING YOU BACK.
APPEAR, THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
BUT IF YOU FAIL TO
r 23
24
DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THIS?
MR. LOPEZ, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
EVERYBODY?
r 25 MR. LOPEZ: YES.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
MR. MARTINEZ:
MR. MARTINEZ?
YES.
r 28 THE COURT: MS. MARTINEZ?
r
~l
58
l
1 MS. MARTINEZ: YES.
2 THE COURT: AND MS. QUINTEROS? l
3 MS. QUINTEROS: YES.
4 THE COURT: MS. QUINTEROS, I THINK THERE WAS A l
BENCH WARRANT PREVIOUSLY ISSUED FOR HER. IT WAS HELD
5
6 UNTIL TODAY'S DATE. I WILL RECALL THAT WARRANT SO IT'S
l
7
8
NO LONGER IN THE SYSTEM, BUT WE EXPECT YOU TO BE HERE ON
APRIL THE 5TH. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
l
9 MS. QUINTEROS: YES. l
11 MR. LOPEZ, HAVE YOU BEEN SUBPOENAED BY THE l
12 DISTRICT ATTORNEY AS WELL?
13 MR. LOPEZ: YES.
l
14
15
THE COURT: HAVE THEY GIVEN YOU A COURT DATE
THAT'S EARLIER THAN APRIL THE 5TH TO COME BACK TO COURT?
l
16 MR. LOPEZ: NO. THIS IS THE DATE I HAVE. SO l
17 I'VE BEEN SUBPOENAED BY BOTH DEFENSE AND --
18 THE COURT: YES, AND THE PROSECUTION. THAT'S l
19 NOT UNCOMMON. THAT HAPPENS FROM TIME TO TIME IN CASES.
20 BUT NORMALLY WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS, IF IT IS POSSIBLE, l
21 HANDLE ALL OF YOUR TESTIMONY AT ONE TIME WHEN YOU GET
22 THERE, FROM BOTH SIDES.
l
23
24
BUT THE POINT I WANT TO MAKE RIGHT NOW IS THIS:
I'VE ORDERED YOU TO RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM ON APRIL
l
25 THE 5TH FOR THE DEFENSE, MR. SPEREDELOZZI. IF THE l
26 PROSECUTOR SUBPOENAS YOU FOR AN EARLIER DATE OR YOU MAKE
27 AN AGREEMENT WITH THE PROSECUTOR TO COME TO COURT ON AN l
28 EARLIER DATE, IT IS ALSO YOUR DUTY TO COME TO COURT ON
l
l
r 59
r 1 THAT DATE. YOU CAN'T JUST WAIT UNTIL THE 5TH AND SAY
r 2 "OH, WELL I THOUGHT IT WAS APRIL 5TH." DO YOU
r 3
4
UNDERSTAND THAT?
MR. LOPEZ: YES.
r 5
6
THE COURT: AND IF THEY DO SUBPOENA YOU FOR AN
EARLIER DATE AND WE GET YOU ON THE STAND EARLIER, I WILL
r 7
8
DO EVERYTHING THAT I CAN TO SEE THAT THAT'S THE ONLY
TIME YOU HAVE TO GET ON THE STAND. I CAN'T PROMISE IT,
r 9 BUT I CAN PROMISE YOU I'LL DO MY BEST TO MAKE THAT

10 HAPPEN. OKAY?
r 11 MR. LOPEZ: ALL RIGHT.
12 THE COURT: FAIR ENOUGH?
r 13 MR. LOPEZ: YES.
r 14
15
THE COURT: FOLKS, THANK YOU. THE PERSONS THAT
I'VE JUST TALKED TO, MR. LOPEZ, MR. MARTINEZ,
r 16
17
MS. MARTINEZ AND MS. QUINTEROS, YOU ARE EXCUSED.
SEE YOU BACK HERE APRIL 5TH.
WE'LL
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, ONE MORE THING.
r 19
20
THE COURT: YES.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
r 21
22 ALVARA.
THE COURT: WE ALSO NEED TO ADDRESS MR. CARLOS
WHAT IS THE SITUATION WITH RESPECT TO HIM?
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
I CAN CHECK ONE MORE TIME.
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT IT'S TWO
r 25
26
MINUTES TO 10. APPROXIMATELY 10 MINUTES AGO
MR. SPEREDELOZZI CHECKED IN THE HALLWAY FOR MR. ALVARA.
r 27 THE COURT HEARD MR. SPEREDELOZZI CALL MR. ALVARA'S NAME.
r 28 THERE WAS NO RESPONSE. THAT WAS AT APPROXIMATELY A
r
60
l
l
1 QUARTER BEFORE THE HOUR OF 10 TODAY.
2 I NOTE THAT HE WAS ORDERED BACK BY THIS COURT l
3 PERSONALLY TO BE HERE AT 9:00A.M .. HE IS NOT HERE.
4 THE COURT FINDS A PRIMA FACIE SHOWING IS MADE THAT HE IS l
5
6
IN CONTEMPT OF COURT AND HAS WILLFULLY FAILED TO APPEAR;
THEREFORE, A BENCH WARRANT AND WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT
l
7
8
WILL ISSUE, NO BAIL.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI INFORMS THE COURT THAT
l
9 MR. ALVARA DID MAKE NUMEROUS APPEARANCES IN THE FIRST l
10 TRIAL AND HAS DEMONSTRATED A WILLINGNESS TO COMPLY WITH
11 THE COURT'S ORDER. IT'S NOT CLEAR WHY HE'S NOT HERE l
12 TODAY. THEREFORE, THE WARRANT THAT HAS JUST BEEN ISSUED
13 WILL BE HELD UNTIL APRIL 5TH, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. IN THIS
l
14
15
DEPARTMENT.
SO AS TO MR. ALVARA, THE COURT FINDS HE FAILED
l
16 TO APPEAR. A WARRANT IS ISSUED, HOLD THAT TO APRIL 5TH,
l
17 2011, 9:00 A.M.
18 WE ALSO NEED TO ADDRESS CARLOS AND HESNEYDA l
19 BUENDIA.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. I MEAN, I l
21 ASK THAT THOSE WARRANTS BE RECALLED AT THIS TIME.
22 THE COURT: THANK YOU. BENCH WARRANTS WERE
l
23
24
PREVIOUSLY ISSUED. THEY'RE NOT HERE TODAY, BUT COUNSEL
IS CONFIDENT THAT THEIR APPEARANCE CAN BE ACHIEVED.
l
25 OBVIOUSLY IF YOU NEED NEW SUBPOENAS OR NEW WARRANTS, LET l
26 ME KNOW. BENCH WARRANTS PREVIOUSLY ISSUED FOR CARLOS
27 BUENDIA AND HESNEYDA BUENDIA ARE HEREBY RECALLED. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, HAVE WE COVERED IT?
l
l
r 61
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALMOST, YOUR HONOR.
r 2 ANOTHER WITNESS WHO HAD A BENCH WARRANT HELD
r 3
4
UNTIL TODAY JUST CAME INTO THE COURT.
BARNES.
HIS NAME IS RANDY
HE'S THE GENTLEMAN SITTING DIRECTLY BEHIND ME,
r 5
6
IF THE COURT IS SO INCLINED TO ORDER HIM BACK ON APRIL
THE 5TH, AS WELL.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THEN THERE IS ANOTHER
r 9
10
WITNESS WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT, VICTOR DOMINGUEZ.
THE COURT: ARE YOU RANDY BARNES, SIR?
r 11 MR. BARNES: YES, SIR.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
CIRCUMSTANCES IS THIS:
MR. BARNES, MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE
AT SOME TIME IN THE PAST, YOU
r 14
15
RECEIVED A SUBPOENA FROM MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S OFFICE.
THAT SUBPOENA ORDERED YOU TO BE PRESENT IN COURT ON
r 16
17
MARCH 8, 2011, AND YOU DIDN'T SHOW UP ON THAT DAY.
WE DID, THEREFORE, IS FIND YOU IN CONTEMPT OF COURT AND
WHAT
r 18 ISSUED A BENCH WARRANT FOR YOU, NO BAIL WARRANT OF
r 19
20
ATTACHMENT.
YOU'RE HERE TODAY. I APPRECIATE THAT. IF YOU
r 21
22
GIVE ME YOUR ASSURANCE YOU'LL COME BACK TO COURT ON THE
NEXT DATE, I WILL RECALL THAT WARRANT AND ORDER YOU BACK
r 23
24
FOR THAT NEW DATE, IF THIS IS ACCEPTABLE TO DEFENSE
COUNSEL.
r 25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE DATE YOU PROPOSE,
r
26
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APRIL 5TH.
r
62
l
l
1 THE COURT: MR. BARNES, THE PROPOSAL IS THIS:
2 I CAN ORDER YOU TO COME BACK TO THIS COURT ON APRIL 5, l
3 2011, AT 9:00A.M., AND LEAVE YOU OUT OF CUSTODY, BUT
4 THE UNDERSTANDING HAS TO BE THAT HOWEVER UNPLEASANT IT l
5 MAY BE FOR YOU TO COME TO COURT ON THIS CASE, THIS IS A
6 SERIOUS CASE. IT'S A MURDER CASE. I'VE ALREADY GOT
l
7
8
SOME WITNESSES -- WITNESSES -- THAT ARE BEING HELD IN
CUSTODY, AND WE CAN DO THE SAME THING TO YOU IF YOU
l
9 DON'T SHOW UP. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
10 MR. BARNES: I'M WILLING TO SHOW UP. I HAVE NO
11 PROBLEM SHOWING UP ON THIS CASE. l
12 THE COURT: OKAY. THERE WAS A PROBLEM AT THE
13 LAST COURT DATE. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NOT GOING
l
14
15
TO BE A PROBLEM ON THE NEXT DATE.
MR. BARNES: OH, NO. IT WAS A TRANSPORTATION
l
16 PROBLEM. I SHOWED UP LATE AND EVERYBODY WAS ALREADY
l
17 GONE.
18 THE COURT: WELL, MR. BARNES, THANK YOU FOR l
19 BEING HERE TODAY. THE BENCH WARRANT PREVIOUSLY ISSUED
20 AND WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT ARE HEREBY RECALLED. l
21 MR. BARNES, YOU'RE ORDERED TO RETURN TO THIS VERY
22 COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR
l
23
24
COURT, ON APRIL 5, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. FOR TESTIMONY IN
THIS CASE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS ORDER?
l
25 MR. BARNES: YES, YOUR HONOR. l
26 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI WILL WRITE DOWN
27 THE DATE AND TIME FOR YOU IF YOU NEED IT, AND IF YOU l
28 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT OR FORGET IT, BE SURE YOU
l
l
r 63
r 1 CALL MR. SPEREDELOZZI. OKAY?
r 2
3 HONOR.
MR. BARNES: YES, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU, YOUR
r 4 THE COURT: THANK YOU. STAND BY OUTSIDE FOR
r 5
6
JUST A MOMENT. DO YOU NEED TO SPEAK WITH HIM?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL SPEAK WITH HIM.
r 7
8
THE COURT: THANK YOU, SIR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THEN VICTOR DOMINGUEZ,
r 9 HE HAS A WARRANT HELD UNTIL TODAY. I SUBPOENAED THIS
r
10 WITNESS. JUST A LITTLE BACKGROUND FOR THE COURT. THIS
11 IS THE DEFENDANT'S BROTHER. I KNOW HE WORKS DURING THE
r 12
13
WEEKDAYS, AND I NEVER CALLED HIM TO LET HIM KNOW HIS
BENCH WARRANT WAS BEING HELD TILL TODAY.
r 14
15
HE'S MORE THAN HAPPY TO COME IN AND TESTIFY FOR
HIS BROTHER IN THIS CASE, AND I DON'T BELIEVE HE'S
r 16
17
ABSCONDING FOR ANY WILLFUL FAILURE TO APPEAR OR ANYTHING
LIKE THAT. SO AT THIS TIME WE CAN DO ONE OF TWO THINGS:
r 18 EITHER HAVE THE WARRANT REMAIN HELD UNTIL THE 5TH AGAIN,
r 19
20
AND I'LL BE CALLING ALL MY WITNESSES THIS WEEKEND, HIM
INCLUDED, OR WE CAN JUST RECALL THE WARRANT.
r 21
22
ACTUALLY, I TAKE THAT BACK. LET'S HAVE IT
HELD, JUST BECAUSE I HATE TO SEE MY INVESTIGATOR'S WORK
r 23
24
GO WASTED.
THE COURT: IF WE HOLD A WARRANT TO A DATE
r 25 CERTAIN, YOU NEED TO LET HIM KNOW WHAT THE DATE IS.
r 26
27
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
I WILL, YOUR HONOR.
WE'LL HAVE THE RECORD REFLECT THAT
r 28 THE BENCH WARRANT ISSUED AS TO MR. VICTOR DOMINGUEZ, A
r
64
l
1
1 DEFENSE WITNESS IN THIS CASE, WILL CONTINUE TO BE HELD.
2 IT WAS HELD UNTIL TODAY'S DATE. THE COURT WILL HOLD IT l
3 UNTIL APRIL 5, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. IN THIS DEPARTMENT.
4 AND, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, PLEASE MAKE REASONABLE EFFORTS TO l
5 CONTACT MR. VICTOR DOMINGUEZ TO LET HIM KNOW WHAT THAT
6 NEW DATE IS.
l
7
8
ANYTHING FURTHER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR, EXCEPT THAT
l
9 UNRELATED TO WITNESS ISSUES, DEFENSE IS GOING TO REQUEST l
10 THAT THE COURT, WITH WHATEVER POWER IT HAS, MAKE A
11 POLITE REQUEST TO THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT TO HAVE l
12 MR. DOMINGUEZ HOUSED IN DOWNTOWN DURING THE PENDENCY OF
13 THE TRIAL. I KNOW WITH BEING IN SOUTH BAY WHERE HE'S
l
14
15
CURRENTLY HOUSED AND HAVING TO COMMUTE HERE EVERY DAY,
HE HAS TO GET UP EXTREMELY EARLY.
l
16 AND ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO QUICKLY BE l
17 ABLE TO SEE HIM IN THE EVENINGTIME AFTER SESSIONS AND
18 THINGS OF THAT NATURE. SO I WOULD LIKE EASIER ACCESS TO l
19 HIM, AND IF THE COURT WOULD PLEASE SUGGEST TO THE
20 SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN, IT WOULD BE 1
21 MUCH APPRECIATED BY DEFENSE COUNSEL.
22 THE COURT: LET'S TRY TO WORD IT THIS WAY: THE
1
23
24
SAN DIEGO SHERIFF IS REQUESTED TO HOUSE THE DEFENDANT AT
THE CENTRAL JAIL FACILITY BECAUSE TRIAL IS COMMENCING
l
25 TOMORROW IN THE CENTRAL COURTHOUSE. BY PUTTING IT THAT l
26 WAY, I'M HOPEFUL THAT THE SHERIFFS MIGHT SEE THAT THAT
27 EASES THEIR OWN PROBLEMS IN TERMS OF THE LOGISTICS OF 1
28 GETTING HIM HERE. WE'LL HAVE THE DOCKET REFLECT THAT.
l
l
r 65
r 1 I ALSO WANT THE RECORD TO BE CLEAR THAT THERE
r 2 WAS ANOTHER WITNESS FOR WHOM WE ISSUED A WARRANT. THIS
r 3
4
WITNESS IS RAUL AGUILAR. HE HAS BEEN ARRESTED ON THAT
WARRANT AND IS BEING HELD IN JAIL. AS IS REQUIRED, HE
r 5
6
WAS APPARENTLY PRODUCED BEFORE DEPARTMENT 11 OR
DEPARTMENT 12 AND BAIL WAS SET, AND HE'S ENTITLED TO
r 7
8
WEEKLY OR 10-DAY REVIEWS. WE'LL HAVE HIM PRODUCED
TOMORROW SO WE CAN COMMENCE THOSE REVIEWS.
r 9 AT THOSE REVIEWS, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, IT IS
r
10 GENERALLY INCUMBENT UPON THE PARTY WHO HAS SUBPOENAED
11 THE WITNESS AND WISHES HIM HELD TO MAKE A PRIMA FACIE
r 12
13
SHOWING OF THE MATERIALITY OF HIS TESTIMONY, SO I WOULD
APPRECIATE IF YOU'RE PREPARED TO DO THAT TOMORROW.
r 14
15
AN ORAL REPRESENTATION IS FINE, BUT THE COURT
NEEDS TO CONCLUDE THAT, NUMBER 1, HIS TESTIMONY IS
r 16
17
MATERIAL, AND, NUMBER 2, THAT DETENTION IS NECESSARY TO
OBTAIN HIS APPEARANCE. AND IF YOU'D BE PREPARED TO
r 18 SPEAK TO BOTH OF THOSE THINGS TOMORROW, I WOULD
r 19
20
APPRECIATE IT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WILL, YOUR HONOR.
r 21
22
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
ANYTHING FURTHER?
NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
r 23
24
RECESS AS TO THIS MATTER.
THANK YOU. WE'LL BE IN
r 25 (AT 10:07 A.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL
r 26
27
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 23, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
Ill
r 28 Ill
r
r
r COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO)

. ss


r
r
r Y C. SIINO
CSR NO. 6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA, ) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS ,
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO . D060019
vs . )
)
) NO . SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT . )
)
REPORTER ' S APPEAL TRANSCRIPT

VOLUME 4
MARCH 23, 2011
PAGES 66 THROUGH 173
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
110 WEST A STREET , SUITE 1100

AND APPELLANT :
REPORTED BY : PEGGY C. SIINO , CSR NO. 6263

r

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
r
)
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r ______________________________)
DEFENDANT.
)
)
MARCH 23, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES:
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r
330 WEST BROADWAY, SUITE 750

RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r 66
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 23, 2011; 9:05AM
r 2
3 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD MORNING.
r 4 BEFORE THE COURT IS THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
5 CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ. THIS IS
r 6 CASE SCD230596, FORMERLY SCD225579. TODAY IS THE FIRST
r
L
7 DAY FOR TRIAL. WE'RE GOING TO COMMENCE WITH IN LIMINE
8 MOTIONS IN JUST A FEW MINUTES.
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
r 11 KRISTIAN TROCHA FOR THE PEOPLE.
12 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, GOOD MORNING.
r 13 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MATTHEW J. SPEREDELOZZI FOR
MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHO IS PRESENT, IN CUSTODY.
r 16
17
THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, MR. DOMINGUEZ,
GOOD MORNING TO EACH OF YOU.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GOOD MORNING.

19 THE COURT: OUR FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS, I
r 20 THINK, IS TO ADDRESS WITNESSES WHO NEED TO BE ORDERED
r 21
22
BACK.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU WANT TO LEAD OFF ON
r 23
24
THAT, PLEASE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SURE. THANK YOU, YOUR
r 25
26
HONOR.
BEFORE THE COURT IS CARLOS ALVARA. HE WAS
r 27 ORDERED TO BE BACK YESTERDAY. HE DID SHOW UP.
r 28 UNKNOWINGLY, THE D.A. INVESTIGATOR THOUGHT HE WAS A
r
67
1
l
1 PROSECUTION WITNESS AND SENT HIM HOME, AND IN ACTUALITY
2 HE HAD TO BE HERE. 1
3 YESTERDAY WE HAD A WARRANT ISSUED AND HELD
4 UNTIL THE 5TH. BUT HE'S PRESENT AND WOULD LIKE THE l
5 WARRANT RECALLED AND BE ORDERED BACK ON APRIL 5TH.
6 THE COURT: WHO IS MR. ALVARA?
l
7
8
MR. ALVARA, GOOD MORNING.
MR. ALVARA: HELLO, SIR.
l
9 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY. l
10 THANKS FOR BEING HERE YESTERDAY. THE WARRANT THAT WAS
11 PREVIOUSLY ISSUED IS HEREBY RESCINDED. THE COURT FINDS l
12 THAT MR. ALVARA WAS, IN FACT, HERE YESTERDAY AND THERE
13 IS NO BASIS FOR A WARRANT. l
14
15
I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT YOU COME BACK TO THIS
COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR
l
16 COURT, ON APRIL 5, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. TO GIVE TESTIMONY
l
17 IN THIS CASE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, SIR?
18 MR. ALVARA: YES, SIR. l
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. GOOD DAY
20 TO YOU, SIR. l
21 MR. TROCHA?
l
22
23
24
MR. TROCHA: ONE OF OUR WITNESSES, JOSUE
GUTIERREZ, HAS ARRIVED AS WELL.
ORDERED BACK FOR THE 5TH.
WE'D ASK THAT HE BE ,
25 THE COURT: WAS THERE A WARRANT OUT FOR THIS l
26 WITNESS?
27 MR. TROCHA: THERE WAS NOT. l
l
l
r 68
r 1 SIR, ARE YOU MR. JOSUE GUTIERREZ?
r 2 MR. GUTIERREZ: YES, I AM.

3 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, SIR.
r 4 WE'RE GOING TO BE NEEDING YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE
r 5
6
LATER ON.
APRIL THE 5TH.
WE ANTICIPATE THAT THAT WILL BE ON OR ABOUT
I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT YOU RETURN TO
r 7
8
THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR
COURT, ON APRIL 5TH, 2011, AT 9:00A.M. IF YOU
r 9 WILLFULLY FAIL TO APPEAR, OF COURSE, A WARRANT WILL BE
r 10
11
ISSUED FOR YOUR ARREST.
MR. GUTIERREZ:
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS, SIR?
I DO.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
GOOD DAY TO YOU.
ALL RIGHT. THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
PAST 9:00 A.M.
YOUR HONOR, IT IS ALMOST TEN
ANOTHER WITNESS, EVELYN SOTO, WAS
r 16 SUBPOENAED TO BE HERE AT 9:00. IS IT ALL RIGHT IF I

MAKE ONE LAST CALL TO SEE IF SHE'S HERE?
r
17
18 THE COURT: YOU MAY.
r 19
20 HERE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, EVELYN SOTO IS
YOUR HONOR, THIS IS A DEFENSE WITNESS. WE ASK
r 21
22
THAT SHE BE ORDERED BACK FOR APRIL 5TH AS WELL.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. HAS A WARRANT
r 23
24
PREVIOUSLY BEEN ISSUED FOR HER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR.
r 25 THE COURT: MA'AM, ARE YOU EVELYN SOTO?
r
26 MS. SOTO: YES.
27 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING.
r 28 MS. SOTO: GOOD MORNING.
r
69
1
1 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I
l
2 UNDERSTAND IT IS UNDER COURT ORDER, BUT I APPRECIATE l
3 YOUR APPEARANCE NONETHELESS.
4 I'M GOING TO POSTPONE THE DATE THAT WE TAKE l
,
5 YOUR TESTIMONY UNTIL APRIL 5TH. WE THINK THAT'S THE
6 BEST ESTIMATE WE CAN GIVE YOU THAT YOUR TESTIMONY WILL
l
7 ACTUALLY BE NEEDED. TO AVOID HAVING YOU COME BACK EVERY
J
8 DAY, I'M SIMPLY GOING TO ORDER THAT YOU RETURN TO THIS

9 COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR l
10 COURT, ON APRIL 5TH, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. DO YOU
11 UNDERSTAND THIS? l
12 MS. SOTO: YES.
13 THE COURT: IF YOU FAIL TO APPEAR AT THAT TIME, l
14
15
A WARRANT WILL BE ISSUED FOR YOUR ARREST.
UNDERSTAND THAT?
DO YOU
l
16
17
MS. SOTO:
THE COURT:
YES.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, AND GOOD
l
18 DAY TO YOU. l
19 OFF THE RECORD FOR A MOMENT.
20 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD.) l
21 THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD.
22 WE JUST ORDERED MR. JOSUE GUTIERREZ BACK FOR
l
23
24
APRIL THE 5TH. THE CLERK REMINDS ME THAT HE WAS ONE OF
THE WITNESSES THAT THE DEFENSE HAD A WARRANT ISSUED FOR
l
25 BACK ON OR ABOUT MARCH 9TH. WE ON THAT DATE -- WAS IT l
26 THE 8TH OR THE 9TH? IT WAS THE 8TH. WHEN WE MET ON THE
27 8TH, MR. SPEREDELOZZI ASKED FOR WARRANTS ON A NUMBER OF l
28 WITNESSES, AND MR. JOSUE GUTIERREZ WAS ONE OF THOSE.
l
l
r 70
r 1 MR. TROCHA: IF THE COURT WANTS HIM BROUGHT
r 2 BACK, THE INVESTIGATOR IS WITH HIM RIGHT NOW.
r
3 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ARE WE ON THE
4 SAME PAGE THAT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED?
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK SO. MY RECORDS --
I'VE BEEN TRYING TO KEEP THEM AS UPDATED AS POSSIBLE. I
r 7
8
DON'T SHOW THAT HE CURRENTLY HAS A WARRANT, AND I'M
KEEPING TRACK OF THAT, BUT I MIGHT HAVE MADE A MISTAKE
r 9 ON THAT.
r 10
11
IF THE COURT'S RECORD INDICATE THAT HE HAS A
WARRANT, THEN THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT HAPPENED. WE DID
12 SUBPOENA HIM AND I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE ASKED FOR A
r 13 WARRANT ON HIM HAD HE NOT SHOWN UP.
r 14
15
THE COURT: YOU DID AND WE DID.
HE'S BEEN ORDERED BACK FOR APRIL 5TH. IS THERE
r 16
17
ANY OBJECTION IF I JUST SIMPLY RECALL THAT WARRANT AND
WE'LL LEAVE HIM ON THE 5TH WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT
r 18 HE IS NOT ONLY A D.A. 'S WITNESS, HE'S ALSO A DEFENSE

19 WITNESS?
r 20 MR. TROCHA: NO PROBLEM.
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO OBJECTION.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
r 23
24
AS TO MR. JOSUE GUTIERREZ, THE BENCH WARRANT
AND WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT THAT WERE ISSUED MARCH 8TH AND
r 25 9TH OF 2011 ARE HEREBY RECALLED, AND HE HAS PREVIOUSLY
r 26
27
BEEN ORDERED TO RETURN HERE FOR APRIL 5TH.
THE MINUTES REFLECT THAT THAT WARRANT IS RECALLED.
WE'LL HAVE
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO
r
71
1
l
1 WITNESSES, CAN I JUST ADDRESS ONE MORE ISSUE?
2 THE COURT: YES. l
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE DEFENSE HAS NOT BEEN
4 ABLE TO SUBPOENA SEVERAL WITNESSES. IN TALKING WITH THE l
5 PROSECUTOR ON THE CASE, IT'S UNDERSTOOD THAT THE
6 PROSECUTOR IS GOING TO CALL THESE WITNESSES. I JUST
1
7
8
WANT TO GET A CONFIRMATION OF THAT, BECAUSE IF THE
PROSECUTOR IS NOT GOING TO BE CALLING THESE WITNESSES,
l
9 THEN I STILL WANT TO BE ACTIVELY SEEKING THEM FOR l
10 SUBPOENA WITH MY INVESTIGATOR.
11 IF THE PROSECUTOR IS GOING TO CALL THE l
12 WITNESSES, THEN I KNOW I DON'T HAVE TO WASTE MY TIME
13 TRYING TO DO THAT. THOSE WITNESSES ARE MELITON l
1
,
14 PUENTE
15 THE COURT: SLOWLY, PLEASE. SPELL.
,
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FIRST NAME MELITON,
J
17 M-E-L-I-T-A-N, (SIC) LAST NAME PUENTE, P-U-E-N-T-E.
18 NEXT WITNESS IS JULIO RAMIREZ, J-U-L-I-0, RAMIREZ,
19 R-A-M-I-R-E-Z. AND EDUARDO PUENTE, E-D-U-A-R-D-0,
20 PUENTE, P-U-E-N-T-E. AND THE OTHER WITNESSES IS D.A.I. l
21 ERIK NAVA, WHICH WILL ONLY BE CALLED BY THE DEFENSE IF
22 NEEDED FOR IMPEACHMENT. THAT'S ERIK, E-R-I-K, NAVA,
l
23
24
N-A-V-A.
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, HOW MANY OF THESE DO
l
25 YOU INTEND TO CALL? l
26 MR. TROCHA: I ANTICIPATE CALLING BOTH OF THE
27 PUENTES AND THE JULIO RAMIREZ WITNESS. ERIC NAVA IS ON l
28 OUR WITNESS LIST, BUT HE WOULD ONLY BE A REBUTTAL OR
l
l
r 72
r 1 REHABILITATION TYPE WITNESS. HE'S AVAILABLE. I KNOW
r 2 HE'S GOING TO BE GOING ON VACATION FOR A COUPLE OF
r 3
4
WEEKS. I'LL GIVE YOU THOSE DATES.
IN REGARDS TO THE PUENTES AND RAMIREZ
r 5
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
ARE THEY UNDER SUBPOENA?
THEY ARE. IF THE DEFENSE WANTS TO
r 7
8
GUARANTEE THEIR PRESENCE FOR THEIR PURPOSES, I WOULD
ADVISE TRYING TO SUBPOENA THEM AS WELL, BUT WE ARE
r 9 ANTICIPATING CALLING THEM.

10 THE COURT: WHAT DATE DO YOU ANTICIPATE? DO
r 11 YOU HAVE THEM ON STANDBY OR ARE THEY SUBPOENAED TO COME
r 12
13
INTO COURT FOR A DATE CERTAIN?
MR. TROCHA: THEY WERE SUBPOENAED TO COME IN
r, 14 FOR YESTERDAY, AND THEY HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH OUR

15 OFFICE. WE CAN CLEAN UP EVERYTHING TOMORROW IN TERMS OF
r 16
17
MY PARALEGAL CONTACTING THEM IF WE NEED WARRANTS, WHAT
DATE THEY WILL BE COMING ON DATES CERTAIN, THINGS OF
r 18 THAT NATURE.
r 19
20
THE COURT: WELL, THE SUBPOENA PROCESS IS SUCH
THAT IF THEY'RE ORDERED TO COME TO COURT ON A CERTAIN
r 21
22
DATE AND THEN MAKE AN AGREEMENT WITH THE PARTY WHO
ISSUED THE SUBPOENA THAT IT BE A DIFFERENT DATE, THE
r 23
24
ORDER IN EFFECT CONTINUES FOR THAT NEW DATE, SO I DON'T
WORRY ABOUT LOSING JURISDICTION.
r 25 IS IT ACCEPTABLE WITH BOTH COUNSEL IF I MAKE
r 26
27
THE ORDER THAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY WILL NOT RELEASE
THOSE WITNESSES FROM SUBPOENA WITHOUT NOTIFYING
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI AND THE COURT, AND, FURTHER, THAT IF,
r
73
1
l
1 MR. TROCHA, YOU FIND THAT YOU'RE LOSING JURISDICTION
l
2
3
4
OVER THESE PEOPLE AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, IF THEY GO IN
THE WIND, YOU'LL LET US KNOW?
, 1
5
6
THE COURT: DOES THAT WORK, MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S ACCEPTABLE. THANK
l
7
8
YOU.
l
9 AND WITH RESPECT TO MR. NAVA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY l
10 INVESTIGATOR, WILL YOU LET US KNOW WHEN YOU CAN,
11 MR. TROCHA, WHAT HIS VACATION SCHEDULE IS SO WE CAN WORK l
12 AROUND THAT. I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT WE CAN --
13 SCHEDULING ASIDE, I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT WE CAN OBTAIN HIS
l
14
15
APPEARANCE WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A SUBPOENA.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I AGREE, YOUR HONOR. HE
l
16 WORKS THE NEXT BUILDING OVER.
l
17 THE COURT: NEXT, BEFORE WE GET UNDERWAY WITH
18 THE ACTUAL MOTIONS, WITNESS RAUL AGUILAR IS IN CUSTODY l
19 ON A WARRANT THAT WAS ISSUED. THIS ONE WAS ISSUED, I
20 BELIEVE, AT THE REQUEST OF MR. SPEREDELOZZI BACK ON l
21
22
MARCH THE 8TH.
DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT, MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
1
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES, YOUR HONOR.
HE'S BEEN PRODUCED FOR TODAY. WHAT
1
25 I PROPOSE THAT WE DO IS EITHER TRAIL HIS APPEARANCE HERE l
26 UNTIL THIS AFTERNOON OR AT THE END OF OUR SESSION,
27 WHENEVER THAT MAY BE. I THINK HE'S GOT A 10-DAY REVIEW l j
28 COMING UP PRETTY QUICKLY, SO WHAT I PROPOSE TO DO IS ASK

l
l
r 74
r 1 THE BAILIFF NOT TO HAVE HIM SENT BACK TO THE JAIL AND
r 2 WE'LL BRING HIM UP HERE AT SOME POINT TODAY TO GET THE
r 3
4
STATUS OF THAT. OKAY. THANK YOU.
THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT BOTH SIDES HAVE
r 5
6
MADE A NUMBER OF FILINGS WITH THE COURT. THE PEOPLE
HAVE FILED A TRIAL BRIEF AND A WITNESS LIST AND A
r 7
8
DISCOVERY MOTION.
THE PEOPLE HAVE ALSO FILED A MOTION IN LIMINE
r 9 REGARDING THE ADMISSION OF GANG EVIDENCE. THAT MOTION
r 10
11
COVERS THE WATERFRONT AS FAR AS THE PEOPLE'S VIEW OF THE
LAW WITH RESPECT TO GANG TESTIMONY IS CONCERNED. THE
r 12
13
DEFENSE HAS FILED AT LEAST TWO, AND POSSIBLY MORE,
SPECIFIC MOTIONS IN LIMINE THAT ADDRESS SPECIFIC GANG
r 14
15
EVIDENCE EXPERT WITNESS ISSUES.
THE PEOPLE HAVE FILED A MOTION TO IMPEACH WITH
r 16 PRIOR FELONY CONVICTIONS. THERE'S A MOTION WITH RESPECT

TO THE SCOPE AND USE OF EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION EXPERT
r
17
18 TESTIMONY, AND THERE'S A MOTION WITH RESPECT TO
r 19
20
THIRD-PARTY CULPABILITY EVIDENCE, THOSE ALL FILED ON
BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE.
r 21
22
THE DEFENSE HAS FILED A TRIAL BRIEF WITH
MOTIONS IN LIMINE. I COUNT 15 SUCH MOTIONS IN LIMINE,
r 23
24
AND WHAT I PROPOSE TO DO IS THAT WE GET UNDERWAY.
OF THE MOTIONS CROSS OVER AND COVER THE SAME TERRITORY.
SOME
r 25 THE FIRST MOTION THAT I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS IS
r 26
27
THE PEOPLE'S REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY REGARDING THE DEFENSE
DNA EXPERT, DR. VINCE MILLER. THIS IS CONTAINED IN THE
PEOPLE'S POINTS AND AUTHORITIES IN THE SUPPORT OF MOTION
28
r
r
75
1
l
1 FOR DEFENSE DISCOVERY. I REMEMBER WE HAD SOME
2 CONVERSATION WITH RESPECT TO DR. MILLER BACK ON MARCH 8. 1
3 WHAT'S THE STATUS OF THINGS, PLEASE?
4 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE HAVE CONTACTED l
5
6
CHROMOSOMAL LABS. WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE MANUAL WE'RE
SEEKING IN DISCOVERY, WHICH IS ENTITLED FORENSIC DNA
1
7
8
DEFENSE STRATEGIES.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, THE MANUAL THAT
l
9 THEY'RE SEEKING IS IN POSSESSION OF MYSELF. I HAVE IT. l
10 IT'S LOCATED AT COURT TODAY. I CAN PRODUCE IT WITHIN
11 FIVE OR TEN MINUTES IF I RUN OUT TO MY CAR. l
12 JUST FOR THE RECORD, I BRIEFLY PERUSED IT. I
13 HAVEN'T REALLY READ IT. I JUST KIND OF LOOKED AT THE
l
14
15
TABLE OF CONTENTS AND FLIPPED THE PAGES. I HAVEN'T
REALLY HAD TIME TO READ IT BECAUSE I'VE BEEN BUSY THE
l
16 PAST FEW WEEKS, AS I'M SURE THE COURT IS AWARE.
l
17 BUT, YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS ITS PRESENCE, IT IS
18 HERE. AND WHEN THE LAB GOT A COPY OF MR. TROCHA'S l
19 LETTER, I INSTRUCTED THE LAB TO GIVE ME A COPY OF WHAT
20 THE PROSECUTOR WAS SEEKING AND THAT WE WOULD LITIGATE l
21 IT. SO THAT'S PROBABLY WHY HE HASN'T RESPONDED.
22 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS YOUR POSITION
l
23
24
WITH RESPECT TO TURNING IT OVER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S
l
25 RELEVANT. IN THE FIRST TRIAL THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY USED l
26 PORTIONS OF THE WEBSITE FROM CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES TO
27 DISPARAGE AND ATTACK THE CREDIBILITY OF THE EXPERT. I l
28 THINK THAT IS WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO WITH THE BINDER.
l
l
r 76
r 1 NONE OF HIS OPINIONS RELIED ON ANYTHING IN THE
r 2 BINDER. I DIDN'T RELY ON THE BINDER WHEN PREPARING MY

3
r
l 4
CASE. LIKE I SAID, I'VE NEVER EVEN READ THE BINDER.
WHAT I BELIEVE IT IS IS SORT OF LIKE A CLASS TO HELP
r 5
6
ATTORNEYS UNDERSTAND DNA, A CLASS THAT I NEVER TOOK, AND
I THINK IT'S COLLATERAL TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS CASE.
r 7
8
IF WE HAD ASKED THE PROSECUTOR TO TURN OVER ALL
MATERIALS FROM CLASSES THAT HIS DNA EXPERT EVER TAUGHT
r 9
10
OR TOOK OR TEXTBOOKS FROM COLLEGE, I'M ALMOST SURE THAT
REQUEST WOULD BE DENIED.
r 11 THE COURT: IS THIS A WORK THAT WAS AUTHORED BY
r 12
13
DR. MILLER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I BELIEVE IT'S --
r 14
15
THE COURT: OR PREPARED BY DR. MILLER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THE
r 16 ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. WHAT I BELIEVE IS THAT IT'S A
HODGEPODGE OF ARTICLES THAT ARE WRITTEN BY SCHOLARS THAT
r
17
18 HIM OR HIS LAB HAS PUT TOGETHER, AND MAYBE SOME OF THEM
19 WERE AUTHORED BY HIM.

r 20 THE COURT: WELL, I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT IT BE
r 21
22
PRODUCED TO COUNSEL FOR THE PEOPLE. JUST DO THAT OVER
THE NOON HOUR OR THIS AFTERNOON, IF YOU'D LIKE. AND,
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA, IF THAT'S HIS ONLY COPY, IT WILL BE UP TO
YOU TO GET IT BACK TO MR. SPEREDELOZZI BY THE END OF THE
r 25
26
WEEK.
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE TWO
r 28 COPIES. I HAD HIM SEND ME TWO COPIES.
r
77
1
l
1
2
3
PRODUCED.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. THEN I'LL ORDER THAT BE
DO THAT WHEN YOU CAN TODAY,
MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
,,
J
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WILL DO.
5 THE COURT: THANK YOU. SO THAT MOTION IS
6 GRANTED. PEOPLE'S MOTION FOR DISCOVERY OF CERTAIN
l
7
8
MATERIALS REGARDING THE DEFENSE DNA EXPERT, DR. MILLER,
IS GRANTED.
l
9 NEXT, THE PEOPLE HAVE FILED MOTIONS IN LIMINE l
10 WITH RESPECT TO EXPERT TESTIMONY REGARDING GANG CULTURE
11 AND SUBCULTURE AND PRACTICES, GANG EXPERT GENERICALLY l
12 CALLED. AS I INDICATED A MOMENT AGO, THE PEOPLE'S BRIEF
13 IN THAT REGARD IS SOMETHING OF AN OMNIBUS TREATMENT OF
l
14
15
THE ISSUE.
DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 1 ADDRESSES ONE OF
l
16 THE AREAS THAT I THINK IS FREQUENTLY OF CONTENTION. AND
l
17 DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 1 IS A MOTION TO EXCLUDE
18 EXPERT TESTIMONY ON THE ISSUE OF THIS DEFENDANT'S 1
19 KNOWLEDGE AND INTENT WITH REGARD TO THE CONSPIRACY
20 CHARGE. I THINK THAT GOES TO THE KILLEBREW, l
21 K-I-L-L-E-B-R-E-W, THE KILLEBREW DOCTRINE.
22 LIKEWISE, THE DEFENSE HAS FILED AS THEIR SECOND
l
23
24
IN LIMINE MOTION, AND ONE THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST
PROBLEMATIC SUBJECTS IN THIS AREA, A MOTION REGARDING
l
25 THE USE OF HEARSAY EVIDENCE BY THE GANG EXPERT. l
26 SPECIFICALLY, DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 2 SEEKS TO
27 EXCLUDE GANG EXPERT OPINION BASED ON OR CONTAINING FACTS l
28 THAT ARE INCOMPETENT HEARSAY.
l
,
r 78
r 1
r
I THINK I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS ALL OF THESE ISSUES
2 FIRST. I AM GOING TO INVITE ARGUMENT FROM BOTH COUNSEL
r 3
4
IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT I WOULD INDICATE THAT, IN MY VIEW,
GENERALLY SPEAKING, THE CONTROLLING GUIDELINES ARE
r 5
6
THESE: FIRST, I THINK THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR THAT A
QUALIFIED GANG EXPERT MAY TESTIFY REGARDING THE GANG
r 7
8
CULTURE, THE GANG PSYCHOLOGY, AND MAY TESTIFY TO
ESTABLISH THE ALLEGATION UNDER PENAL CODE SECTION
r 9
10
186.22(B).
THAT.
I THINK THE CASE LAW PRETTY WELL ESTABLISHES
r 11 I THINK, AS WELL, THAT THE EXPERT MAY BE ASKED
r 12
13
HYPOTHETICAL QUESTIONS, SUBJECT TO AN IMPORTANT PROVISO.
THAT PROVISO IS THAT THE HYPOTHETICAL QUESTIONS SHOULD
r 14
15
NOT BE A THINLY DISGUISED RECITAL OF THE FACTS OF THIS
CASE THAT ESSENTIALLY ASKS FOR THE EXPERT'S GENERAL
r 16
17
BELIEF AS TO HOW THE CASE SHOULD BE DECIDED OR WHETHER
THIS PERSON IS GUILTY.
r 18 COUNSEL BOTH ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE KILLEBREW
r 19
20
CASE. AND, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, THESE VERY ISSUES ARE
BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT NOW IN PEOPLE V.
VANG, V-A-N-G.
r 21
22
THAT'S A CASE FROM THIS DISTRICT IN
WHICH THE FOURTH DISTRICT RULED THAT JUDGE WELLINGTON
r 23
24
ERRED IN THE HYPOTHETICAL QUESTIONS THAT HE ALLOWED.
I THINK THE COURT OF APPEAL CONCLUDED IT WAS
r 25 HARMLESS ERROR, BUT NONETHELESS IT WAS ERROR. THE

26 SUPREME COURT HAS GRANTED REVIEW ON WHETHER THE TRIAL
r 27 COURT ERRED IN PERMITTING THE USE OF HYPOTHETICAL
r 28 QUESTIONS OF THE GANG EXPERT AND ALSO THE QUESTION OF
r
79
1
l
1
2
THE HARMLESSNESS OF THE ERROR.
SO THAT ISSUE IS UP IN THE AIR RIGHT NOW BEFORE
,
J
3 THE SUPREME COURT, BUT MY SENSE IS THAT THE KILLEBREW
4 DOCTRINE IS STILL A VIABLE ONE. AND IF THE HYPOTHETICAL l
5
6
QUESTION BASICALLY ASKS THE GANG EXPERT, "DO YOU THINK
THIS GUY IS GUILTY," EVEN THOUGH IT'S THINLY DISGUISED,
1
7
8
I'M NOT INCLINED TO ALLOW THAT.
MORE TO THE CRUX, I THINK THE EVIDENCE CODE AND
l
9 CASE LAW ALLOW AN EXPERT TO BASE HIS OPINION ON HEARSAY l
10 PROVIDED IT IS OF A TYPE THAT MAY REASONABLY BE RELIED
11 UPON BY EXPERTS IN FORMING THEIR OPINIONS. THAT'S RIGHT l
12 OUT OF EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 801.
13 THE RUB IS, AS HIGHLIGHTED BY
l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S SECOND IN LIMINE MOTION, THIS:
BECAUSE THE EXPERT MAY RELY ON HEARSAY, MAY HE OR SHE
JUST
l
16 RELATE THAT INFORMATION TO THE JURORS? AND THE CASES GO l
17 BACK AND FORTH ON THAT.
18 THERE IS THE COLEMAN CASE AND THE MICKEY CASE l
19 AND ONE OF MY FAVORITES, KORSAK V. ATLAS HOTELS, A CASE
20 FROM THIS DISTRICT. THE COLEMAN AND THE MICKEY CASES I l
21 THINK STAND FOR THE PROPOSITION THAT IN SOME
22 CIRCUMSTANCES, THE EXPERT MAY RELATE THE HEARSAY TO THE
l
23
24
JURORS AND ARE GIVEN A LIMITING INSTRUCTION.
IT'S A MATTER THAT'S COMMITTED TO THE COURT'S
l
25 DISCRETION. THE COURT'S ASKED TO BALANCE THE NEED TO l
26 CONSIDER THE EXTRAJUDICIAL STATEMENTS SO THAT THE
27 OPINION MAKES SENSE, ON THE ONE HAND, VERSUS THE l
28 DEFENDANT'S INTEREST IN AVOIDING THE SUBSTANTIVE USE OF
l
l
r 80
r 1 UNRELIABLE HEARSAY.
r 2 I WILL HEAR ARGUMENT ON ALL OF THESE. NONE OF
r 3
4
THESE ARE RULINGS.
STARTING POINT IS.
I'M JUST LETTING YOU KNOW WHAT MY
MY SENSE IS, AND THE WORKING RULE
r 5
6
THAT I GENERALLY FOLLOW, IF THE EXPERT IS TESTIFYING TO
SOMETHING THAT IS ESSENTIALLY A BODY OF KNOWLEDGE THAT
r 7
8
HAS BEEN DEVELOPED ABOUT A SUBJECT, WHERE THAT BODY OF
KNOWLEDGE IS BASED ON MULTIPLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION,
r 9 THEN I THINK THAT COMES IN.
r 10
11 OPINION.
AND IT COMES IN WHILE THE EXPERT'S GIVING HIS
AND IF THE DEFENSE WANTS A LIMITING
r 12
13
INSTRUCTION, I'LL GIVE ONE.
I THINK THAT THE OUTER LIMIT OF THAT IS DEFINED
r 14
15
BY THE KORSAK CASE, WHICH WAS ADMITTEDLY A CIVIL CASE.
IN KORSAK THE EXPERT ON SOME PLUMBING ISSUE IN A
r 16
17
PERSONAL INJURY CASE IN A HOTEL BASICALLY WENT OUT AND
TALKED TO A COUPLE OF PEOPLE AND SAID, "WHAT DO YOU
r 18 THINK ABOUT THIS DESIGN?"
r 19
20
AND JUSTICE HUFFMAN WRITING FROM THE FOURTH
DISTRICT SAID, "NO, NO, THAT DOESN'T GET IT. THAT'S NOT
r 21
22
A GENERALIZED BODY OF KNOWLEDGE" -- HE DIDN'T USE THOSE
WORDS. BUT THE WAY I UNDERSTAND THE OPINION IS THE
r 23
24
PERSON MAY HAVE QUALIFIED AS AN EXPERT, BUT THEN IF HE
DOESN'T REALLY KNOW FROM HIS BODY OF KNOWLEDGE EXPERTISE
r 25 THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, BUT GOES OUT AND TALKS TO A
r 26
27
COUPLE OF PEOPLE, THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE KIND OF
THING THAT CAN BE RELATED TO THE JURY.
r 28 NOW, I FULLY APPRECIATE THAT COUNSEL MAY FIND
r
81
1
1
1 THOSE GUIDELINES A BIT WATERY, AND I FULLY APPRECIATE
2 THERE MAY BE SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS 1
3 AS WE GO ALONG, BUT THOSE ARE MY TENTATIVE THOUGHTS WITH
4
5
6
RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE.
NEXT, WITH RESPECT TO THE DEFENSE FIRST MOTION
IN LIMINE WHICH WOULD EXCLUDE EXPERT TESTIMONY ON THE
,
1
j
7
8
ISSUE OF THE DEFENDANT'S KNOWLEDGE AND INTENT REGARDING
THE CONSPIRACY CHARGE, MY SENSE IS THAT MOTION IS WELL
l
9 TAKEN. I THINK THAT'S KILLEBREW. AND I DON'T THINK l
10 THAT -- I THINK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR AN EXPERT MAY NOT SAY,
11 "WELL, IN MY OPINION, BECAUSE THE PERSON WAS A MEMBER OF l
12 THIS GANG UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, HE KNEW WHAT WAS
13 GOING ON OR SHARED A SPECIFIC INTENT." I DON'T THINK AN
l
14
15
EXPERT CAN SAY THAT.
I THINK KILLEBREW DOES SAY THAT THE EXPERT MAY
l
16 PROVIDE TESTIMONY THAT WILL ASSIST THE JURORS IN l
17 DETERMINING THAT KNOWLEDGE AND INTENT AS LONG AS HE
18 STAYS AWAY FROM RENDERING AN ULTIMATE OPINION AND AS l
19 LONG AS HE OTHERWISE HAS THE EXPERTISE TO RENDER THAT
20 OPINION. I THINK THE EXPERT MAY NOT GIVE AN OPINION l
21 THAT THE DEFENDANT OR ANY GIVEN PERSON HAD A CERTAIN
22 KNOWLEDGE OR INTENT.
l
23
24
I'M GOING TO INVITE ARGUMENT FIRST FROM COUNSEL
FOR THE PEOPLE. THERE MAY BE OTHER ISSUES THAT I
l
25 HAVEN'T COVERED, OR YOU MAY WANT TO TAKE ISSUE WITH SOME l
26 OF MY THOUGHTS, MR. TROCHA, AND THEN I'LL BE PLEASED TO
27 HEAR ARGUMENT FROM MR. SPEREDELOZZI ON ANY OF THOSE l
28 POINTS, AS WELL AS THE TWO SPECIFIC IN LIMINE MOTIONS
l
l
r 82
r 1 THAT HE'S BROUGHT. MR. TROCHA.

r 2 MR. TROCHA: IN REGARDS TO DEFENSE MOTION IN
3 LIMINE NO. 1, I AGREE THE EXPERT CANNOT GIVE ANY OPINION
r 4 IN ANY CASE AS TO WHAT THE MENTAL STATE OF ANY WITNESS,
r 5
6
INCLUDING THE DEFENDANT, IS, INCLUDING A CONSPIRACY
CASE. I WOULD ANTICIPATE WHAT THE COURT HAS SAID, IT'S
r 7
8
MORE OF HOW DOES A GANG OPERATE?
WHAT'S THE GROUP THINKING WITHIN THE GANG?
r 9 WHAT DOES BACKING OF A HOMIE MEAN? WHAT ARE THE

10 CONSEQUENCES OF NOT BACKING UP A HOMIE? THINGS OF THAT
r 11 NATURE, THE INFORMAL STRUCTURE OF RULES IN THE GANG THAT
12 WOULD EXPLAIN WHY PEOPLE ACT IN A CERTAIN WAY WHEN IT IS
r 13 UNCOMMON IN EVERYDAY SOCIETY FOR SOMEBODY ACTING THAT
r 14
15
WAY.
BUT IN REGARDS TO THE ULTIMATE FACT OF WHAT IS
r 16
17
THE DEFENDANT THINKING ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, I DON'T
ANTICIPATE GOING ANYWHERE NEAR THAT SUBJECT WITH THAT
r 18 EXPERT OR ANY OTHER WITNESS.
r 19
20
THE COURT: MAY I STOP YOU THERE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU SEE THE NEED TO
r 21
22
ADDRESS THAT PARTICULAR TOPIC FURTHER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD LIKE TO.
r 23
24
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA FINISHES.
THEN I'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE WHEN
r 25 MR. TROCHA: IN REGARDS TO MOTION IN LIMINE
r
26 NO. 2, I AM ALSO IN AGREEMENT WITH THE COURT IN THIS
27 MATTER. UNLESS PHOTOGRAPHS CAN BE AUTHENTICATED BY
r 28 MEMBERS OF EITHER THE PERSON WHO TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPH, A
r
83
,
l
1 PERSON WHO'S IN THE PHOTOGRAPH OR THE PERSON WHO POSTED
2 THE ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPH, THEN THE ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPH CAN'T l
3 COME BEFORE THE JURY.
4 HOWEVER, WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH A GANG EXPERT l
5
6
IN SAN DIEGO, THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT USES
MYSPACE, USES FACEBOOK, AND USES OTHER SOCIAL INTERNET
l
7
8
MEDIA SITES TO GAIN INTELLIGENCE ON MEMBERS OF CERTAIN
GANGS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF WEBSITES WITHIN MYSPACE THAT
l
9 DEAL WITH SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET, SHELLTOWN GAMA, AND THE l
10 OVERALL UMBRELLA OF BOTH SHELLTOWN GANGS.
11 MARTHA GASCA IS OUR GANG EXPERT IN THIS CASE. l
12 SHE'S BEEN DOING THAT FOR YEARS. MR. DOMINGUEZ'S
13 PHOTOGRAPH APPEARS DOZENS OF TIMES IN CONNECTION WITH
l
14
15
THE SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET WEBSITES ON THE INTERNET.
AS THE COURT HAS SAID, THIS IS A PART OF A
l
16 GENERAL KNOWLEDGE BASE IN TERMS OF TALKING WITH MEMBERS l
17 OF THE PUBLIC, TALKING WITH GANG MEMBERS, POLICE
18 OFFICERS RUNNING DOWN THE GAMUT. THIS IS ANOTHER SOURCE l
19 UPON WHICH THIS GLOBAL INFORMATION IS BASED UPON FOR
20 OPINION. l
21
22
I SEE NO PROBLEM IN HER ADDRESSING THESE
PHOTOGRAPHS OR OTHER THINGS UPON THESE WEBSITES
l
23
24
SIGNS, SYMBOLS OR OTHER MEDIA THAT ARE USED FOR PENAL
CODE SECTION 186.22 -- IN A GENERAL SENSE. YES, I HAVE
l
25 SEEN MR. DOMINGUEZ'S FACE WITHIN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS. l
26 YES, I HAVE SEEN OTHER A, B, C, D, E, F GANG MEMBERS
27 WITHIN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT MAY BE MENTIONED ALONG l
28 WITH THIS CASE.
l
l
r 84
r 1 SHE HAS LOOKED AT THE WEBSITES FOR YEARS AS
r 2 PART OF HER JOB, AND I BELIEVE IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR HER
r 3
4
TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS WHAT SHE HAS SEEN AS PART OF HER
KNOWLEDGE BASE. AFTER ALL, IT IS GOING TO BE THE
r 5
6
DEFENSE THAT'S GOING TO BE ATTACKING HER KNOWLEDGE BASE
AS BEING INSUFFICIENT AS TO THIS GANG.
r 7
8
INTO DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 13.
WE HAVE VEERED SOMEWHAT
THAT'S A MOTION
r 9 TO EXCLUDE ALL EVIDENCE, PRINTOUTS, IMAGES AND

10 STATEMENTS OBTAINED FROM THE WEBSITE MYSPACE.
r 11 YOU ALL HAVE THE BACKGROUND ON THIS. I DON'T.
r 12
13
MR. TROCHA, MAY I ASK YOU TO GIVE ME A LITTLE MORE
DETAILED PROFFER. I'M GETTING THE SENSE THAT YOU ARE
r 14
15
BELIEVING THAT A NUMBER OF -- THAT SOME OF THIS
INFORMATION CAN BE PUT IN AS THE BASIS FOR THE EXPERT'S
r 16
17
OPINION.
MR. TROCHA: YES.
r 18 THE COURT: OKAY. TELL ME WHAT INFORMATION
r 19
20
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, PLEASE.
DETAILED PROFFER, IF YOU WOULD.
JUST GIVE ME A MORE
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA: WHAT THE DEFENSE PUT FORWARD IN
THE PRIOR CASE AND FOR THIS CASE IS THE ALLEGATION THAT
r 23
24
MR. DOMINGUEZ IS NOT A GANG MEMBER AT ALL.
ARE THESE WEBSITES WHERE MR. DOMINGUEZ APPEARS IN
WHAT WE HAVE
r 25
26
PHOTOGRAPHS WITH ACTIVE, KNOWN, DOCUMENTED SHELLTOWN
38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS ON CERTAIN TIMES AND DATES THAT
r 27 CAN BE SEEN WITHIN THE PHOTOGRAPH WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE
r 28 THAT WILL BE TESTIFYING IN COURT THAT CAN AUTHENTICATE
r
85
1
l
1 THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THEIR PRESENCE OF MR. DOMINGUEZ
2
3
4
WITHIN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS.
THE DEFENSE HAS BEEN SEEKING TO KEEP OUT THESE
PHOTOGRAPHS ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE FROM
,
l
1
5
6
THE INTERNET, WE CAN'T USE THEM, PARTIALLY, I'M
GUESSING, UPON THE BECKLEY CASE. THERE ARE ALSO
l
7
8
STATEMENTS MADE BY THE DEFENDANT IN CONNECTION WITH ONE
OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, SPECIFICALLY THE MOTIVE IN THIS
l
9 CASE IS AN INDIVIDUAL BY THE NAME OF EDWIN QUINTANILLA l
10 WAS MURDERED. HE WAS MURDERED ON JULY 4TH OF 2008.
11 ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, THE VICTIM IN THIS CASE l
12 WAS MURDERED. IT IS THE PEOPLE'S POSITION THAT THE TWO
13 ARE RELATED BECAUSE MR. DOMINGUEZ MADE CERTAIN
l
14
15
STATEMENTS TO MARLA QUINTANILLA, ANOTHER ONE OF THE
DEFENSE'S MOTION IN LIMINE.
l
16 THE COURT: MARLA IS THE DECEDENT l
17 MR. QUINTANILLA'S SISTER?
18 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. l
19 THERE WAS A MEMORIAL PUT UP ON JONATHAN
20 QUINTANILLA'S MYSPACE PAGE, WHO IS THE OLDER BROTHER OF l
21 EDWIN QUINTANILLA AND ALSO BROTHER TO MARLA QUINTANILLA.
22 THE DEFENDANT, THROUGH HIS MYSPACE PAGE, MADE A
l
23
24
STATEMENT IN CONNECTION WITH THIS MEMORIAL CLAIMING HIS
ALLEGIANCE TO SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET.
l
25 THE DEFENSE BELIEVES THAT SHOULD NOT COME IN l
26 BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE AUTHENTICATED, OR IT'S BECAUSE IT'S
27 COMING OFF OF A MYSPACE PAGE. THE PEOPLE DISAGREE l
28 BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S A STATEMENT BY THE DEFENDANT IN
l
l
r 86
r 1 THIS CASE THAT CAN BE TRACED BACK TO WHAT IS HIS
r 2 WEBSITE.
r 4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'LL INVITE YOUR COMMENT WITH
r 5
6
RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE'S GENERAL MOTION WITH RESPECT TO
GANG EXPERT, THE COURT'S THOUGHTS ON IT, AS WELL AS YOUR
r 7
8
IN LIMINE MOTIONS 1, 2 AND 13, THE LATTER DEALING WITH
THE MYSPACE.
r 9
10
AS FAR AS THE PEOPLE'S BRIEF, IT'S FAIRLY
r 11 COMPREHENSIVE. IN MY VIEW, IT CASTS JUST SORT OF AN
r 12
13
UMBRELLA AS TO WHAT THEY INTEND TO INTRODUCE AND THINGS
OF THAT NATURE. BUT I GUESS WHAT THE DEFENSE WANTS TO
r 14
15
FOCUS ON IS, OKAY, SO HERE'S THE UMBRELLA OF WHAT THEY
WANT TO INTRODUCE. HOW DO WE WANT IT LIMITED? AND
r 16 THAT'S INDICATED IN MOTIONS IN LIMINE 1 AND 2.

17 BUT MOTION 1 IS NOT JUST AS SIMPLE AS THE GANG
r 18 EXPERT CAN'T TESTIFY AS TO MR. DOMINGUEZ'S KNOWLEDGE AND
r 19
20
INTENT AT THE TIME OF THE CRIME. IF THAT WAS ALL THAT
WAS AT ISSUE, THEN IT WOULD BE A NO-BRAINER. BUT AS THE
r 21
22
COURT ELOQUENTLY PUT JUST A FEW MOMENTS AGO THAT IT
ACTUALLY PROSCRIBES -- KILLEBREW ACTUALLY PROSCRIBES A
r 23
24
THINLY DESCRIBED HYPOTHETICAL, WHERE THAT HYPOTHETICAL
IS JUST A RUSE TO SHOW WHAT DEFENDANT'S STATE OF MIND IS
r 25
26
AT THE TIME OF THE CRIME.
NOW, WHAT THE DEFENSE IS CONCERNED ABOUT IN
I
L 27 THIS CASE IS THE CONSPIRACY CHARGE. THE PROSECUTION'S
THEORY IS THAT BEFORE THE SHOOTING IN THIS CASE, THERE
r 28
r
87
,
l
1
2
3
WAS MULTIPLE PEOPLE -- AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IS
UNKNOWN; IT'S BEEN THREE, FOUR, TWO, BY DIFFERENT
WITNESSES -- WERE BEATING UP THE VICTIM PRIOR TO THE
,
4 SHOOTING. l
5 AND THEN ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO BEAT UP THE --
l
6
7
8
WHO WAS BEATING UP THE VICTIM TOOK OUT A GUN AND SHOT
THE VICTIM. AND THEIR THEORY OF CONSPIRACY IS THAT
BASICALLY ALL OF THESE MEN WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE
,
9 BEATING UP CONSPIRED TO COMMIT MURDER. AND THAT WOULD l
10 REQUIRE THE SPECIFIC INTENT TO AGREE TO COMMIT MURDER.
l
11
12
13
AND THE DEFENSE IS WORRIED THAT THE
PROSECUTION'S EXPERT WILL BE ASKED HYPOTHETICALS ABOUT
GANG BEATINGS AND WHETHER OR NOT DURING GANG BEATINGS
,
14
15
IT'S KNOWN WITHIN THE GANG BEATING THAT THEY'RE GOING TO
END UP KILLING THIS GUY, AND IF THAT IS SOMETHING THAT
l
16
17
CAN HAPPEN IN A GANG OR DOES HAPPEN OR THAT SHE SEES A
LOT.
l
18 IN MY MIND, SUCH A HYPOTHETICAL WOULD BE A l
19 THINLY DISGUISED RUSE TO SHOW MR. DOMINGUEZ'S KNOWLEDGE
20 AND INTENT AT THE TIME OF THE VIOLATION. I DON'T THINK l
21 THE PROSECUTION SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD.
22 SHOULD I MOVE ON TO 2?
l
23
24
THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. AS FAR AS MOTION IN
l
25 LIMINE NO. 2, IN THE DEFENSE'S MIND, EVIDENCE CODE 352 l
26 ALWAYS HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE ANALYSIS ON EVERY
27 ISSUE. AND THE PROBLEM WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS l
28 GOTTEN FROM MYSPACE IS -- SPECIFICALLY, THERE ARE A
l
l
L 88
r 1 COUPLE OF PIECES OF EVIDENCE THAT I SPECIFICALLY WANT TO
r 2 ADDRESS.
r 3
4
ONE IS A PHOTO AT -- DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF IT
ON YOU, THE PHOTO FROM THE SPRING VALLEY HOUSE,
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA?
MR. TROCHA: NO, BUT I KNOW WHICH ONE YOU'RE
r 7
8
TALKING ABOUT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THERE'S A PHOTO WITH
r 9
10
MAYBE 10 OR 15 YOUNG MEN WHO THE GANG EXPERT CAN
IDENTIFY AS BEING GANG MEMBERS, AND IT'S LOCATED,
r 11 ACCORDING TO HER AND SOME OTHER WITNESSES, AT A HOUSE
r 12
13
THAT THE DEFENDANT USED TO OWN. AND THERE IS
DEFENDANT'S IN THE PHOTO, AND SO IS ONE OF THE KEY
r 14
15
WITNESSES, ANDRES LOPEZ.
AND ONE OF THE ISSUES IN THIS CASE IS HOW WELL
r 16
17
DID ANDRES LOPEZ KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ AT THE TIME THE
SHOOTING TOOK PLACE, BECAUSE MR. LOPEZ --AND LET'S CALL
r 18 HIM ANDRES L., BECAUSE HE'S A MINOR--

19 MR. TROCHA: WE CAN CALL HIM ANDRES.
r 20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'LL CALL HIM ANDRES
r 21
22
BECAUSE HE'S A MINOR. ONE OF THE ISSUES IS:
DID THEY KNOW EACH OTHER AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING?
HOW WELL
r 23
24
BECAUSE IT'S AN IDENTIFICATION.
IDENTIFICATION.
MR. LOPEZ MAKES AN
r 25
26
NOW, THAT PHOTO AT THE HOUSE WHERE BOTH OF THEM
APPEAR TO BE PRESENT, THE GANG EXPERT NOR ANY WITNESS IN
r 27 THE CASE HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO PUT A TIME ON IT. WHEN
r 28 WAS IT TAKEN? WAS IT BEFORE THE SHOOTING OR AFTER THE
r
89
l
l
1 SHOOTING?
2 MR. ANDRES HAS SAID IN TESTIMONY AND IN PRIOR 1
3 STATEMENTS THAT THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING WAS THE FIRST
4 TIME HE MET THE DEFENDANT. AND HE'S ALSO SAID THAT IT l
5 WAS THE LAST TIME HE SAW THE DEFENDANT. AND WITHOUT
6 KNOWING WHEN THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN, WHAT THE
l
7
8
PROSECUTION IS DOING IS THEY'RE TRYING TO USE IT AS A
RUSE TO PROVE THAT ANDRES LOPEZ KNEW DEFENDANT AT THE
l
9 TIME OF THE SHOOTING. AND IF WE CAN'T PLACE A TIME ON l
10 IT, IT CAN'T BE USED FOR THAT PURPOSE. IT IS NOT
11 RELEVANT. l
12 AND SO THEY'RE GOING TO BE SAYING THEY'RE USING
13 IT FOR THE GANG EXPERT'S OPINION, BUT IN REALITY THEY'RE
l
14
15
USING IT FOR SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT TO WHICH IT
CAN'T BE AUTHENTICATED.
l
16 THE COURT: ANDRES IS MOISES' BROTHER? l
17 MR. TROCHA: NO. ALL LOPEZES EXCEPT FOR SIMON
18 LOPEZ ARE UNRELATED TO THE VICTIM. l
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THEN THERE IS THE STATEMENT l
21 OF THE DEFENDANT ON MYSPACE. THERE IS A -- IT WAS NOT
22 ON DEFENDANT'S OR NOT EVEN PURPORTED TO BE DEFENDANT'S
l
23
24
MYSPACE PAGE. AND FORGIVE ME, YOUR HONOR, I'M ASSUMING
THAT YOU KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MYSPACE HERE. STOP ME
l
25 IF YOU DON'T. l
26 THE COURT: MAKE IT AS BASIC AS YOU NEED,
27 BECAUSE WHETHER I KNOW IT OR NOT, THE COURT OF APPEAL l
28 MAY NOT.
l
l
r 90
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, BASICALLY WHAT MYSPACE
r 2 IS, IS IT'S A SOCIAL NETWORKING SITE. YOU CAN SET UP

3 YOUR OWN PAGE THAT'S SORT OF YOUR OWN AREA IN THE SITE,
r 4 AND PEOPLE CAN ONLY SEE IT IF YOU INVITE THEM AS YOUR
r 5
6
FRIEND, OR YOU CAN MAKE IT A PUBLIC SITE WHERE ANYBODY
CAN SEE IT.
r 7
8
THE SITE THAT THIS STATEMENT WAS FOUND ON, IT'S
A SHOUT-OUT TO THE VICTIM, EDWIN QUINTANILLA, AFTER HE
r 9 HAD PASSED, AND IT HAS A PHOTO OF THE DEFENDANT MAKING
r 10
11
THAT NEXT TO THE COMMENT INDICATING THAT IT WAS MADE BY
HIM. AND WHEN YOU POST SOMETHING ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S
12 PAGE ON MYSPACE, YOUR PROFILE PICTURE GOES NEXT TO THAT

r 13 COMMENT, AND THAT'S THE BASIS FOR THE PROSECUTION
r 14
15
BELIEVING THAT IT WAS MADE BY THE DEFENDANT.
BUT IN ACTUALITY, THE DEFENDANT RUNS A MUSIC
r 16
17
STUDIO AND HAS FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HE PRODUCES MUSIC,
HIP HOP MUSIC, AND THE WEBSITE IS, IN ACTUALITY, A
r 18 ADVERTISING MATERIAL FOR THAT STUDIO AND FOR HIS
r 19
20
PRODUCTION COMPANY AND FOR ARTISTS AND THINGS OF THAT
NATURE. IT'S A WEBSITE THAT MULTIPLE PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS
r 21
22
TO, NOT JUST THE DEFENDANT.
A POINT IN FACT THAT SOMEBODY HAS BEEN MAKING
r 23
24
COMMENTS FROM THAT SITE EVEN AFTER THE DEFENDANT WAS PUT
IN CUSTODY. SO THERE IS NO FOUNDATION THAT IT IS
r 25 ACTUALLY AN ADMISSION THAT WOULD BE ADMISSIBLE.
r 26
27
SO THESE ARE, IN THE DEFENSE'S MIND,
INCOMPETENT HEARSAY, THERE IS NO FOUNDATION, AND THE
GANG EXPERT CAN'T JUST GO UP THERE AND TELL THE JURY
r 28
r
91
,
l
1 WHAT SHE SAW ON MYSPACE WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE MORE
2 FOUNDATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE PROSECUTION CAN 1
3 ACTUALLY PROVE THAT WAS AN ADMISSION IN THAT CASE, AND
4 WHETHER OR NOT THE PROSECUTION CAN PUT A DATE AND TIME l
5
6
ON THE PHOTO THAT WE'RE REQUESTING BE EXCLUDED.
AND I GUESS THE OTHER ONE IS THE CRIMINAL
l
7
8
HISTORY OF THE DEFENDANT. THE FACT OF THE CONVICTION
AND THE FACTS UNDERLYING THE CONVICTION ARE -- I WOULD
l
9 BE -- I'M CONCERNED THAT SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THE FACTS l
10 OF THOSE AS WELL, BECAUSE IN THE FIRST TRIAL -- AND THIS
l
11
12
13
COMES FROM -- A LOT OF THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STEMS
FROM ISSUES IN THE FIRST TRIAL -- SHE ACTUALLY, AND SO
DID THE PROSECUTOR, GOT A LOT OF FACTS INCORRECT ABOUT
,
14
15
THOSE CONVICTIONS.
AND THEY WERE IMPLYING INCORRECT FACTS IN THEIR
l
16 QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS THAT HAD TO BE CLEARED UP LATER,
l
17 AND I FELT IT PREJUDICED -- UNFAIRLY PREJUDICED MY
18 CLIENT. I JUST DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN. l
19 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'VE EXPERIENCED
20 ANOTHER UNEXPECTED TURN HERE. l
21 HOW ARE WE TALKING ABOUT YOUR CLIENT'S CRIMINAL
22 HISTORY AS PART OF THE EXPERT TESTIMONY? WHAT'S YOUR
l
23
24
CONCERN AGAIN?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BECAUSE SHE'S GOING TO BE
l
25 RELYING ON HIS CRIMINAL HISTORY IN POLICE REPORTS THAT l
26 SHE READ IN DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT HE'S A MEMBER OF
27 A GANG AND WHETHER THIS CRIME WAS DONE FOR THE BENEFIT l
28 OF THE GANG.
l
l
r 92
r 1 THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND HIS CRIMINAL HISTORY

r 2 TO INVOLVE AN AUTO THEFT CASE AND ASSAULT CASE OR
r 3
4
ASSAULT WITH FORCE LIKELY WHICH WAS RESOLVED AS A
MISDEMEANOR, OR NO?
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA: NO.
HE WAS PUT ON SUMMARY PROBATION.
IT WAS PLED AS A FELONY, AND
r 7
8
THE COURT: WELL, LET ME GET MR. TROCHA'S
RESPONSE TO THE LAST POINT ABOUT THE CRIMINAL HISTORY.
r 9 MR. TROCHA: THE CRIMINAL HISTORY WOULD BE --
r
10 WE'RE NOT INTENDING TO BRING IN CONVICTIONS OF
11 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S AS PART OF THE GANG ANALYSIS; HOWEVER,
r 12
13
THIS WOULD BE WHAT WE CALL THE GDR, THE GANG
DOCUMENTATION REPORT, WHERE IN ORDER TO BE DOCUMENTED,
r 14
15
THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS A CRITERIA OF WHO ARE YOU
HANGING OUT WITH, ARE YOU HAVING TATTOOS, ARE YOU MAKING
L 16 CLAIMS OF A CERTAIN GANG TO POLICE OFFICERS, BOOKING
r 17
18
INTAKES, CONFIDENTIAL INFORMANTS, THINGS OF THAT NATURE,
IN ORDER TO DOCUMENT SOMEONE UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF
r 19
20
JUSTICE GUIDELINES.
TWO OF THOSE CRITERIA WERE MET ON TWO DIFFERENT
r 21
22
OCCASIONS FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ. ONE IS UNDER THE CAR
THEFT, WHERE HE WAS FOUND IN THE PRESENCE OF THREE OTHER
r 23
24
KNOWN SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS ON THIS
PARTICULAR TIME AT THE TIME HE HAPPENED TO BE STEALING
r 25 THE CAR.
r 26 THE SECOND ONE OF THOSE IS MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS

27 INVOLVED IN AN ASSAULT WITH ANOTHER DOCUMENTED SHELLTOWN
r 28 GANG MEMBER. THAT WOULD BE THE 245 CONVICTION FROM, I
r
93
l
1
1 BELIEVE, 2006. BOTH OF THOSE CRITERIA COME IN UNDER THE
2 GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT. 1
3 AT THE PRIOR TRIAL, THEY DIDN'T COME IN THAT HE
4 WAS COMMITTING CRIMES ON THESE CERTAIN DATES AND THINGS l
5 OF THAT NATURE. THAT CAME IN BECAUSE THE CLAIM WAS MADE
6 BY THE DEFENSE, "MR. DOMINGUEZ IS A LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN
l
7
8
AND IS IN NO WAY A GANG MEMBER."
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IN TERMS
l
9 OF WHAT COMES IN UNDERNEATH THE GANG EXPERT UMBRELLA AND l
10 WHAT COMES IN TO COUNTER THE CHARACTER EVIDENCE
11 UMBRELLA. WHAT WE ARE SEEKING SOLELY FOR THE GANG l
12 DOCUMENTATION REPORT AND GANG EVIDENCE IS THE FACT ON
13 CERTAIN TIMES AND DATES HE WAS IN THE PRESENCE OF THESE
1
14
15
PEOPLE.
WE DON'T NEED TO GET IN THE ACTIVITIES. WE
l
16 DON'T NEED TO GET IN THE CONVICTION FOR THAT PURPOSE;
l
17 HOWEVER, IF THE DEFENSE WANTS TO PROCEED DOWN THE ROAD
18 THAT HE'S NOT A GANG MEMBER AND HE'S A LAW-ABIDING l
19 CITIZEN, THAT'S WHERE THAT TYPE OF EVIDENCE WOULD COME
20 IN. I JUST WANTED TO CLEAR UP THAT POINT IN TERMS OF l
21 OUR POSITION ON THIS PARTICULAR MOTION.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, MAY I RESPOND?
l
23
24
THE COURT: YOU MAY, ON THAT POINT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ON THAT POINT, SPECIFICALLY
l
25 WHAT WAS AIRED BY THE PROSECUTOR AND THE GANG EXPERT IS 1
26 A FACT FROM THAT CASE. AND THE PROSECUTOR IS RIGHT, I
27 THINK IT CROSSES BETWEEN GANG EXPERT, WHAT SHE RELIES l
28 ON, AND REBUTTAL CHARACTER.
l
l
r 94
r 1 BUT AT THE SAME TIME WHAT'S CONTESTED IS SHE

r 2 CLAIMED THAT THE PROSECUTOR INDICATED OR IMPLIED IN HIS
r 3
4
QUESTIONS THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ SHOUTED SOMETHING ABOUT
SHELLTOWN DURING THE COMMISSION OF THE ASSAULT. THAT
r 5
6
FACT WAS HIGHLY CONTESTED IN THAT CASE, AND IT CAME OUT
AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THAT CASE THAT THAT NEVER
r 7
8
HAPPENED.
MR. TROCHA: LET ME INTERRUPT. THERE WAS NO
r 9 PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THAT CASE. WE CHECKED WITH THE
r 10
11
RECORDS AFTERWARDS, AND THE FILE IS BEING BROUGHT UP TO
THE COURT FOR THIS CASE.
12 THE COURT: THAT'S THE 245?
r 13 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. HE PLED PRIOR TO THE
r 14
15
PRELIMINARY HEARING.
HEARING.
THERE WAS NEVER A PRELIMINARY
r 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. IT

17 WAS A HIGHLY CONTESTED ISSUE IN THE CASE, AND IT WASN'T
r 18 SOMETHING THAT WAS EVER ESTABLISHED. IT WAS IN A POLICE
r 19
20
REPORT. AND SO NOW WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS THE PROSECUTOR
ASKING QUESTIONS, IMPLYING THAT FACT IS TRUE, WHEN THERE
r 21
22
IS NO BASIS TO -- THERE IS NO BASIS FOR THAT FACT BEING
TRUE OTHER THAN A POLICE REPORT.
r 23
24
THE COURT:
WAS QUOTING THE WITNESS.
WELL, I ASSUME THE POLICE REPORT
r 25
26
MR. TROCHA: YES. IT'S THE SAME THAT WAS
RELIED UPON IN TERMS OF MAKING THE CLAIM OF SHELLTOWN.
r 27 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU,
r 28 BOTH. LET'S MAKE SOME RULINGS HERE.
r
95
l
l
1 WITH RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE'S MOTIONS IN LIMINE
,
2
3
4
TO ADMIT EXPERT TESTIMONY REGARDING GANG EVIDENCE, I'M
GOING TO GRANT THEM AND DENY THEM AS FOLLOWS. I DO
BELIEVE THAT THE QUALIFIED GANG EXPERT MAY TESTIFY
,
5 REGARDING THE STREET GANG CULTURE AND PRACTICES, AND
6 THEY MAY ESTABLISH THE 186.22 ALLEGATION WITH AN EXPERT.
l
7
8
I THINK THE EXPERT MAY BE ASKED HYPOTHETICAL QUESTIONS,
PROVIDED THAT LINE ISN'T CROSSED THAT I ALLUDED TO
l
9 EARLIER. l
10 I BELIEVE AND I RULE THAT THE EXPERT MAY BASE
11 HIS OPINION ON HEARSAY IF IT IS THE TYPE OF HEARSAY THAT l
12 MAY REASONABLY BE RELIED UPON BY EXPERTS IN FORMING
13 OPINIONS, AND I'M GOING TO HOLD TO MY ORIGINAL THOUGHT
l
14
15
THAT I WILL ENTERTAIN SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS AT THE TIME OF
THE TESTIMONY IF THERE IS A CONCERN ABOUT INCOMPETENT
l
16 HEARSAY BEING ADMITTED DURING THE OPINION.
l
17 I THINK I'VE TOLD YOU THAT MY THOUGHT IS THAT
18 IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A GENERALIZED BODY OF KNOWLEDGE l
19 WITH MULTIPLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION, IT COMES IN. ALL
20 OF US KNOW THAT JAPAN IS A COUNTRY AND THEY HAD A BOMB l
21 DROPPED ON THEM AND THEY MAKE TOYOTAS AND RIGHT NOW
22 THEY'RE GOING THROUGH A TERRIBLE CRISIS, AND ALL OF THAT
l
23
24
IS BASED ON HEARSAY.
GOING TO DOUBT THAT.
AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HERE IS
l
25 AND I THINK WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A l
26 GENERALIZED BODY OF KNOWLEDGE, THAT HEARSAY GETS TO BE
27 ADMITTED AS PART OF THE GANG EXPERT'S TESTIMONY. l
28 IF WE GET CLOSER TO THAT KORSAK LINE, I'LL BE
l
l
r 96
r 1
r
GLAD TO ENTERTAIN SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS, AND I WILL, OF
2 COURSE, INVITE NOW AND CONTINUE TO INVITE LIMITING
r 3
4
INSTRUCTIONS IF THE DEFENSE WISHES.
NOW WITH RESPECT TO THE DEFENSE MOTION IN
r 5
6
LIMINE NO. 1, THIS IS THE MOTION TO EXCLUDE EXPERT
TESTIMONY ON THE ISSUE OF THE DEFENDANT'S KNOWLEDGE AND
r 7
8
INTENT WITH RESPECT TO THE CONSPIRACY CHARGE, KILLEBREW
WAS EXPLAINED IN A LATER CASE CALLED PEOPLE V. GONZALEZ.
r 9
10
AND I THINK KILLEBREW -- THE BLACK LETTER HOLDING OF
KILLEBREW PRECLUDES THE EXPERT FROM GIVING AN OPINION AS
r 11 TO SOMEBODY'S KNOWLEDGE OR MENTAL STATE.
r 12
13
HOWEVER, KILLEBREW DOES NOT PROHIBIT THE
PROSECUTION FROM ELICITING EXPERT TESTIMONY TO PROVIDE
r 14
15
THE JURY WITH INFORMATION FROM WHICH THE JURY MAY INFER
THE MOTIVE OR THE INTENT. AND I THINK HOW GANGS OPERATE
r 16
17
AND HOW THEY BACK EACH OTHER UP AND WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO
THEM ALL CAN COME IN.
r 18 I THINK THAT THE LINE, AGAIN, IS GOING TO BE
r 19
20
IF -- EVEN IF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY DOES NOT ASK FOR A
SPECIFIC OPINION, IF I GET A HYPOTHETICAL THAT'S WALKING
r 21
22
TOO CLOSE TO THE LINE, I'LL SUSTAIN AN OBJECTION TO IT.
AND THE FOCUS NEEDS TO BE ON PROVIDING THE JURY
r 23
24
INFORMATION FROM WHICH IT CAN INFER A STATE OF MIND OR
KNOWLEDGE, WHICH IS PERMISSIBLE, AS OPPOSED TO HAVING AN
r 25 EXPERT SAY, "IN MY OPINION, THIS STATE OF MIND EXISTED,"

WHETHER THE EXPERT DOES THAT DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY.
r
26
27 NOW, LET ME ADDRESS THE THIRD ISSUE THAT CAME
r 28 UP DURING THIS QUESTION OF EXPERT TESTIMONY, WHICH ALSO
r
97
l
l
1 ADDRESSES DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 13. HERE I'M
2 TALKING ABOUT THE MYSPACE INFORMATION. l
3 ANYTHING THAT APPEARS ON MYSPACE IS CONSIDERED
4 A WRITING UNDER THE EVIDENCE CODE, UNDER SECTION 250 OF l
5
6
THE EVIDENCE CODE. THE FIRST ISSUE THAT YOU ALWAYS HAVE
TO ASK WITH RESPECT TO ANY EVIDENCE IS: IS IT RELEVANT?
l
7
8
THEN, BECAUSE IT'S A WRITING, YOU HAVE TO LOOK
AT WHETHER IT'S AUTHENTICATED; WHETHER THE SECONDARY
l
9 EVIDENCE RULE APPLIES; AND THEN, FINALLY, OF COURSE, WE l
10 HAVE TO CONSIDER THE HEARSAY RAMIFICATIONS OF THE
11 EVIDENCE. l
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI MENTIONED EVIDENCE CODE
13 SECTION 352, AND I THINK I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE A COUPLE
l
14
15
OF PRINCIPLES THAT APPLY HERE BECAUSE THE COURT'S
ANALYSIS IS BASED ON THESE PRINCIPLES.
l
16 THE FIRST PRINCIPLE IS THAT RELEVANT EVIDENCE l
17 DOES NOT HAVE TO BE STRONG EVIDENCE. IN OTHER WORDS,
18 THE QUESTION OF RELEVANCE IS DIFFERENT FROM THE QUESTION l
19 OF THE STRENGTH OF THE EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE IS RELEVANT
20 UNDER THE DEFINITION IN THE CODE IF IT HAS ANY TENDENCY l
21 IN REASON TO PROVE OR DISPROVE A DISPUTED FACT THAT IS
22 OF CONSEQUENCE TO THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE.
l
23
24
THE LAW IS CLEAR THAT EVIDENCE IS RELEVANT WHEN
IT TENDS TO PROVE OR DISPROVE SOME ISSUE, NO MATTER HOW
l
25 WEAK IT IS, NO MATTER HOW WEAK THE EVIDENCE IS. SO THE l
26 FACT THAT EVIDENCE MIGHT BE WEAK OR MIGHT HAVE MORE THAN
27 ONE INTERPRETATION OR MIGHT LEAD TO DIFFERENT INFERENCES l
28 BEING DRAWN FROM IT DOES NOT DEFEAT THE RELEVANCE.
l
l
r 98
r 1 THAT TAKES US INTO THE NEXT POINT THAT

r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI MENTIONED, AND THAT IS EVIDENCE CODE
r 3
4
SECTION 352.
UNDER THAT SECTION, THE COURT HAS THE
r 5
6
DISCRETION TO EXCLUDE EVEN RELEVANT EVIDENCE IF ITS
PROBATIVE VALUE IS NOT MERELY OUTWEIGHED BUT
r 7
8
SUBSTANTIALLY OUTWEIGHED BY THE POSSIBILITY -- I'M
SORRY -- BY THE PROBABILITY THAT ITS ADMISSION WILL
r 9 CAUSE UNDUE CONSUMPTION OF TIME, CREATE A SUBSTANTIAL
r 10
11
DANGER OF UNDUE PREJUDICE OR OF CONFUSING THE ISSUES OR
OF MISLEADING THE JURY. AND THAT'S A BALANCING TEST
12 THAT IS COMMENDED TO THE DISCRETION OF THE COURT.
r 13 OKAY. LET'S LOOK AT THE MYSPACE INFORMATION.
r 14
15
FIRST QUESTION, AUTHENTICATION. THAT QUESTION ASKS
WHETHER THE MATERIAL IS WHAT IT PURPORTS TO BE. THIS IS
r 16 A PRELIMINARY FACT AS TO WHICH THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS

17 DEFINED IN SECTION 403, NAMELY, IS THERE SUFFICIENT
r 18 EVIDENCE TO SUSTAIN A FINDING THAT THE ITEM IS WHAT IT
r 19
20
PURPORTS TO BE.
IT'S LIKE A PHOTO. AUTHENTICATION CAN OCCUR BY
r 21
22
A PERSON WHO LOOKS AT IT AND IS FAMILIAR WITH THE
CONTENT OF IT OR CAN AUTHENTICATE IT FROM LOOKING AT
r 23
24
WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THE WRITING, AND I FIND THAT THE
AUTHENTICATION PRONG IS SATISFIED IN THIS CASE.
r 25 THEN THE NEXT QUESTION IS WHETHER THE SECONDARY
r 26
27
EVIDENCE RULE APPLIES. THAT RULE IS: WHEN MAY
SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE ACTUAL ORIGINAL BE INTRODUCED?
r 28 THE LAW HAS KIND OF COME INTO THE 21ST CENTURY, OR AT
r
99
l
l
1 LEAST INTO THE 20TH CENTURY, AND NOW RECOGNIZES THAT A
2
3
4
COPY IS ADMISSIBLE UNLESS THE COURT DETERMINES THERE'S A
GENUINE DISPUTE CONCERNING MATERIAL PARTS OF IT AND
JUSTICE REQUIRES THAT IT BE KEPT OUT.
,
l
J
5
6
WELL, I'M SATISFIED COPIES OF MYSPACE
INFORMATION ARE SUFFICIENTLY GENUINE TO MEET THIS TEST,
l
7
8
SO I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SECONDARY EVIDENCE
RULE. I THINK PHOTOGRAPHS OR TESTIMONY DESCRIBING WHAT
l
9 WAS SEEN ARE BOTH PERMISSIBLE. l
10 IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE RELEVANCE OF THE
11 MATERIAL THAT'S BEEN DESCRIBED TO ME IS PRETTY CLEAR. l
12 THE SPRING VALLEY HOUSE PHOTOGRAPH WITH THE DEFENDANT IN
13 THE PHOTOGRAPH ALONG WITH ANDRES HAS RELEVANCE.
l
14
15
THE FACT THAT THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE
INTERPRETATION OR THE FACT THAT IT MAY NOT BE CONCLUSIVE
l
16 EVIDENCE I DON'T THINK DEFEATS ITS ADMISSIBILITY. ALL
l
17 RELEVANT EVIDENCE IS PRESUMED ADMISSIBLE UNLESS A
18 STATUTE OR SECTION 352 EXCLUDES IT. THE FACT THAT IT l
19 MAY HAVE BEEN TAKEN AFTER THIS EVENT IS SOMETHING THAT
20 COUNSEL IS FREE TO ARGUE, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT DEFEATS l
21 ITS ADMISSIBILITY.
22 WITH RESPECT TO WHAT IS PURPORTED TO BE THE
l
23
24
DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT ON THE MYSPACE PAGE WHICH
MR. SPEREDELOZZI DISPUTES, MR. SPEREDELOZZI CITES THE
l
25 FACT THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAD ACCESS TO THAT ACCOUNT. YES, l
26 THAT'S TRUE. THAT GOES TO THE WEIGHT OF TESTIMONY. IT
27 DOES NOT DEFEAT ITS ADMISSIBILITY, AND I FIND THAT THAT l
28 IS ADMISSIBLE.
l
l
r 100
r 1 WITH RESPECT TO THE CRIMINAL HISTORY OF THE

r 2 DEFENDANT, ULTIMATELY HOW MUCH OF THAT IS ADMITTED IS
r 3
4
GOING TO DEPEND ON SOME OTHER ISSUES WE'LL TALK ABOUT
LATER. BUT FOR RIGHT NOW, I FIND THAT IT IS PROPER AND
r 5
6
APPROPRIATE FOR THE EXPERT TO SAY THAT IN 1996 OR
WHATEVER YEAR IT WAS THAT THE AUTO THEFT CASE OCCURRED,
r 7
8
MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS IN THE COMPANY OF TWO GANG MEMBERS OR
THREE GANG MEMBERS, HOWEVER MANY IT WAS.
r 9 AND I ALSO FIND IT PERMISSIBLE FOR THE EXPERT
r 10
11
TO STATE, WITH RESPECT TO THE ADW CASE FROM -- WAS THAT
'04?
12 MR. TROCHA: YEAH, '04.
r 13 THE COURT: -- 2004, THAT THAT WAS IN THE
r 14
15
COMPANY OF GANG MEMBERS. AND I FURTHER FIND THAT THE
EXPERT CAN RELATE THE FACT THAT SHELLTOWN WAS REPORTEDLY
r 16
17
SHOUTED OUT, AND THAT'S A QUESTION THAT GOES TO THE
WEIGHT OF THE EVIDENCE. AND THAT CAN BE DISPUTED, AND
c 18 THAT'S FINE, BUT, IN SHORT, I'M GOING TO FIND THAT THOSE
19 ITEMS ARE PROPERLY WITHIN THE EXPERT'S TESTIMONY.
r 20 SO FOR PURPOSES OF THE RECORD, THE COURT GRANTS
r 21
22
DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 1 WITH RESPECT TO TESTIMONY
ON THE DEFENDANT'S KNOWLEDGE AND INTENT REGARDING THE
r 23
24
CONSPIRACY CHARGE, TO THE EXTENT THAT I'VE DESCRIBED IT
EARLIER. I DON'T THINK IT PRECLUDES ALL EVIDENCE ABOUT
r 25 THE CULTURE, BUT IT DOES PRECLUDE SPECIFIC OPINION
r 26 EVIDENCE AND A THINLY DISGUISED HYPOTHETICAL, WHICH

27 AMOUNTS TO THE SAME THING.
r 28 WITH RESPECT TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION IN LIMINE
r
101
,
l
1 NO. 2, WHICH IS TO EXCLUDE EXPERT -- I'M SORRY -- TO
l
2
3
4
EXCLUDE EXPERT OPINION TESTIMONY BASED ON FACTS THAT ARE
INCOMPETENT HEARSAY, YES, IF IT'S INCOMPETENT HEARSAY,
THEY CAN'T MENTION IT. BUT, AS I'VE SAID EARLIER, THAT
, J
5
6
DOESN'T PRECLUDE ALL HEARSAY.
AND DENIED AS PREVIOUSLY STATED.
SO THAT MOTION IS GRANTED
l
7 OKAY. AND FOR THE CLERK, I'M JUMPING AHEAD TO
l
8 ITEM NO. 13, DEFENSE IN LIMINE MOTION NO. 13, THE MOTION
9 TO EXCLUDE THE EVIDENCE FROM THE MYSPACE PAGE IS DENIED. l
10 THE MOTION TO EXCLUDE IS DENIED FOR THE REASONS THAT
11 I'VE JUST STATED. l
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, MAY I BE HEARD
13 ON JUST THE ISSUE OF THE STATEMENT BY DEFENDANT MOTION
l
14
15
ON MYSPACE?
THE COURT: I THOUGHT YOU HAD ALREADY BEEN
l
16 HEARD ON IT. l J
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DID, BUT I WANTED TO

18 COMMENT ON YOUR RULING. I KNOW YOU'VE ALREADY MADE THE l
19 RULING, BUT SOMETIMES I LIKE TO MAKE A COMMENT JUST SO
20 THE RECORD IS CLEAR AS TO MY ARGUMENT. l
21
22 ARGUMENT IS.
THE COURT: WELL, YOU MAY TELL ME WHAT YOUR
YOU DON'T GET TO COMMENT ON MY RULING.
l
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WHAT I WANTED TO COMMENT ON
WAS THAT THE RULING WAS THAT IT GOES TO WEIGHT, AND THE
l
25 STATEMENT ON MYSPACE, IN THE DEFENSE'S OPINION, IT'S l
26 HEARSAY, AND THE EXCEPTION IS ADMISSION OF PARTY
27 OPPONENT. l
28 THE COURT: WELL, AS TO THAT PARTICULAR
l
l
r 102
r 1 STATEMENT.
i
I 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AS TO THAT PARTICULAR
3
r 4
STATEMENT. AND SO THE DEFENSE WOULD ARGUE THAT THE
PROSECUTION WOULD NEED TO PROVE THAT PRELIMINARY FACT
r 5
6
THAT IT IS MADE BY THE DEFENDANT BY A PREPONDERANCE OF
THE EVIDENCE.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
WAY MYSPACE WORKS.
I'M SATISFIED THAT'S BEEN DONE, THE
AND ALSO TO THE EXTENT THAT IT IS A
r
l
9 BASIS FOR THE EXPERT OPINION, THEN EVEN IF IT'S HEARSAY,
r 10
11
IT COMES IN AS THE BASIS FOR THE EXPERT'S OPINION.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY.
12 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU.
i 13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI AND MR. TROCHA, I BELIEVE I
i 14
15
HEARD INFORMAL CONVERSATION YESTERDAY TO THE EFFECT THAT
WE DON'T NEED TO ADDRESS AT THIS TIME THE EYEWITNESS
r 16
17
EXPERT MOTION.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CORRECT, YOUR HONOR.
i 18 THE COURT: THE PEOPLE'S MOTION TO EXCLUDE OR

19 LIMIT EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION EXPERT TESTIMONY WILL BE
r 20 DEFERRED AND HEARD AT SUCH TIME AS THE NEED MIGHT ARISE.
21 THERE IS A DEFENSE MOTION TO EXCLUDE THE
i 22 TESTIMONY OF ANDRES LOPEZ ON THE GROUND THAT HE IS NOT
r 23
24
COMPETENT TO BE A WITNESS, AS DEFINED IN EVIDENCE CODE
SECTION 701. MY MEMORY IS WE TALKED ABOUT THIS THE
i 25 OTHER DAY.
26 COMPETENCY IS A DETERMINATION THAT IS MADE
r 27 UNDER SECTION 405. THAT MEANS THAT THE BURDEN IS THAT
28 THE COURT MUST BE PERSUADED OF THE PRELIMINARY FACT OF

r
r
~
l
103
,
1 COMPETENCY BEFORE ALLOWING THE TESTIMONY.
, J
2
3
4
THE COURT'S SENSE WAS TO DEFER RULING ON THIS
ISSUE AND TO CONDUCT A BRIEF HEARING OUTSIDE THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION.
, J
5 COMPETENCY IS A PRETTY LOW THRESHOLD, AND THE FACT THAT

6 A WITNESS MAY NOT HAVE A LOT OF HORSEPOWER OR BE A VERY
l
7
8
ARTICULATE OR ORGANIZED WITNESS USUALLY ISN'T FATAL.
THOSE ARE QUESTIONS FOR THE JURY TO DECIDE.
l
9 ALMOST ALL CREDIBILITY ISSUES ARE QUESTIONS FOR l J
10 THE JURY, BUT DOES ANY COUNSEL HAVE ANY OBJECTION IF WE

11 JUST TALK WITH ANDRES LOPEZ, EXAMINE HIM ON THE RECORD l
12 OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY AT THE TIME HE IS
13 CALLED? l
14
15
MR. TROCHA:
TESTIFIED TWICE ALREADY.
I WOULD ONLY BECAUSE HE'S
I MEAN, WE HAVE A PRELIMINARY
l
16 HEARING AND WE HAVE A PRIOR TRIAL TESTIMONY IN THIS
17 REGARD.
18 IN READING THE DEFENSE MOTION, IT'S BASED ON l
19 THE FACT THAT HE'S NOT SMART, HE HAS MENTAL
20 DEFICIENCIES, AND HE DOESN'T KNOW THE DEFINITION OF WHAT l
21 TESTIMONY IS. I DON'T THINK ANY OF THOSE DISQUALIFY
22 SOMEBODY UNDER COMPETENCY.
l
23
24
HE ANSWERS THE QUESTIONS WHEN THEY ARE VERY
SIMPLY PUT TO HIM LIKE A CHILD. I MEAN, IF A
l
25 SEVEN-YEAR-OLD DOESN'T KNOW WHAT COMPETENCY OR TESTIMONY l
26 MEANS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S NO LONGER A WITNESS.
27 WE'RE DEALING WITH SOMEBODY WHO DROPPED OUT OF SCHOOL IN l
28 THE SIXTH GRADE. HE'S NOT BRIGHT. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE
l
l
r 104
r 1 QUESTIONS VERY SIMPLE TO HIM OR HE GETS CONFUSED AND
r 2 DOESN'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

3 BUT WHEN YOU DO MAKE THEM VERY SIMPLE, LIKE YOU
r 4 WOULD TO A CHILD, HE ANSWERS THEM APPROPRIATELY. I
r 5
6
DON'T THINK THERE'S A NEED FOR A 402 TO DETERMINE IF
ANDRES LOPEZ KNOWS THE MEANING BETWEEN TELLING THE TRUTH
r 7
8
AND TELLING A LIE, AND BETWEEN THE COLORS OF RED AND
BLUE, WHICH IS WHAT WE WOULD FOR A CHILD WITNESS.
r 9 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHAT'S YOUR SENSE
r 10
11
OF THIS? DID YOU BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A HEARING
TO DETERMINE, FIRST OF ALL, WHETHER HE UNDERSTANDS THE
r 12
13
DUTY TO TELL THE TRUTH?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. AND THAT'S
r 14
15
THE ISSUE. HE HAS TESTIFIED TWICE, AND IT WAS HIS TRIAL
TESTIMONY THAT RAISED THIS ISSUE IN THE DEFENSE'S MIND.
F 16 I WOULDN'T EVEN BE OPPOSED TO SUBMITTING
l
17 PROPOSED QUESTIONS AND HAVING THE COURT ASK HIM. THE
r 18 DEFENSE DOESN'T NEED TO HAVE AN EXTRA OPPORTUNITY TO
r 19
20
CROSS-EXAMINE HIM OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY.
REALLY TRULY THINK THERE'S AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE
I
r 21
22
DETERMINED OF WHETHER HE UNDERSTANDS THE DUTY TO TELL
THE TRUTH.
r 23
24
HE ISN'T SMART. THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN
THAT HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE DUTY TO TELL THE TRUTH.
r 25 BUT BASED ON WHAT HE SAID IN THE PAST, IT CERTAINLY IS
r 26
27
AT ISSUE AS TO WHETHER HE DOES UNDERSTAND THAT DUTY.
THE COURT: FOR EXAMPLE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE I SAID, HE
28
r
r
1
1 DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD "TESTIFY" MEANS.

105
, J
l
2
3
4 RECORDING
THE COURT: WELL, THAT DOESN'T REALLY MEAN --
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALL RIGHT. AND THERE IS A
I HAVE THE AUDIO IF THE COURT WOULD LIKE TO

, l
5 LISTEN TO IT -- WHERE DURING THE FIRST TRIAL HE WAS

6 BROUGHT UP TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, AND I
l
7 GUESS HE DIDN'T TESTIFY THE WAY THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED Jl
,
)
8 HIM TO TESTIFY, SO THE PROSECUTOR ASKED MR. ANDRES
9 SEVERAL QUESTIONS: "HOW COME YOU WERE SAYING THAT J
.,
J
10 EVERYTHING YOU SAID BEFORE WAS A LIE," THINGS LIKE THAT,

11
12
13
AND ANDRES SAID, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN."
AND HE SAID, "WELL, WHY DID YOU TELL THE

PROSECUTOR -- I MEAN THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY THAT THIS WAS
,J
14
15
TRUE WHEN IT WASN'T?" AND HE'D SAY THINGS LIKE, "I
DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING." AND SO THERE'S
l
16 THIS DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT'S COMING OUT OF HIS MOUTH
l
17 AND WHAT'S BEING ASKED, AND SOMETIMES IT'S BEEN -- AND
18 IT IS ALSO ABOUT THE INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS. l
19 NOW, GENERALLY SPEAKING, INCONSISTENT
20 STATEMENTS IS A QUESTION FOR THE JURY, IT DOESN'T GO TO l

21 INCOMPETENCY, BUT WHEN THEY PILE UP -- AND THE AMOUNT OF
22 INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS THAT THE WITNESS HAS MADE IN ALL

l
23
24
HIS TESTIMONY ON THE RECORD IS OUTSTANDING. I'VE NEVER
SEEN SO MANY INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS FROM A WITNESS.
l
25 I'M YOUNG, I HAVEN'T BEEN AN ATTORNEY THAT l
26 LONG, BUT, STILL, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I'VE NEVER SEEN
27 BEFORE. AND, AGAIN, I DON'T THINK IT PREJUDICES THE l
28 PROSECUTION'S CASE. IT CAN BE DONE IN TWO OR THREE
l
l
r 106
iL
1 QUESTIONS. I DON'T HAVE TO BE THE ONE ASKING THOSE
r 2 QUESTIONS. I CAN SUBMIT THEM TO THE COURT AND THE COURT
r
3 CAN VOIR DIRE THE WITNESS.
4 I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE BEFORE HE GETS ON THE
5
r 6
STAND IN FRONT OF A JURY THAT HE UNDERSTANDS WHAT IT
MEANS TO TELL THE TRUTH AND THAT HE'S UNDER A DUTY TO DO
i
l
7 so.
8 THE COURT: I'LL EXAMINE HIM OUTSIDE THE
r 9 PRESENCE OF THE JURY TO MAKE A COMPETENCY DETERMINATION.

10 IF YOU WANT TO SUBMIT SOME QUESTIONS, I'LL BE HAPPY TO
r 11 CONSIDER THEM.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR
r 13 HONOR.
r 14
15
THE COURT: SO WITH RESPECT TO THAT MOTION, THE
COURT WILL DEFER RULING AND CONDUCT A HEARING OUTSIDE
r 16
17
THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY.
THERE IS A FOURTH IN LIMINE MOTION WITH RESPECT
r 18 TO ANDRES. IT'S A MOTION TO EXCLUDE HIS TESTIMONY ON

THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE SHELLTOWN STREET GANG. THE
19
r 20 WAY THE MOTION IS CAST, IT SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT HE'S
r 21
22
TESTIFYING, IN A SENSE, AS AN EXPERT.
THAT'S AN INTERESTING LEGAL THEORY, AND I DON'T
r 23
24
MEAN THAT AS A BACKHANDED CRITICISM.
INTERESTING WAY OF LOOKING AT IT.
THAT'S AN
r 25 WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN IN THIS MOTION,
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE CONCERN IS -- AND,
r 28 AGAIN, A LOT OF THESE ISSUES ARE STEMMING FROM WHAT
r
~
I
J
107
l
1 HAPPENED IN THE FIRST TRIAL, SO FORGIVE ME AS WELL IF I
2 REFER BACK TO THE FIRST TRIAL. BUT I THINK THE FIRST l
3 TRIAL DOES GIVE US SORT OF A PREVIEW OF WHAT TO EXPECT
l
4
5
6
IN THE SECOND TRIAL, SO I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE.
BUT ESSENTIALLY HE'S AN EYEWITNESS.
EYEWITNESS.
HE'S AN
THE PROSECUTION SAYS HE WAS THERE -- THAT'S
, J
7 A CONTESTED ISSUE -- BUT HE IDENTIFIES MR. DOMINGUEZ AS l

.,
J
8 THE SHOOTER.
9 IN THE FIRST TRIAL, THE FIRST DAY, WHICH WAS J
10 THE END OF THE DAY, BUT IT WAS MAYBE, I'M ESTIMATING, 45
11 MINUTES OR AN HOUR, THE EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY OF ANDRES l
12 WAS NOT EVEN ASKED. IT HADN'T EVEN GOT THERE YET. IT
13 WAS MORE OF, "WHAT'S IT LIKE BEING IN A GANG?" l
14
15
ONE OF THE QUESTIONS MR. TROCHA ASKED WAS, "WHO
IS THE LEADER OF THIS GANG?"
l
16 "WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON'T CHECK SOMEBODY IN
l
17 THE NEIGHBORHOOD," AND ALL THESE QUESTIONS TO WHICH
18 ANDRES SPOUTED OFF, YOU KNOW, ANSWER AFTER ANSWER THAT l
19 WAS, IN THE DEFENSE'S MIND, QUESTIONABLE.
20 NOW, WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY'RE USING ANDRES l
21 AS A GANG EXPERT. AND, NORMALLY, DEFENSE THINKS THAT'S
22 APPROPRIATE. A PERSON WHO'S A MEMBER OF A GANG
l
23
24
CERTAINLY CAN ASSIST THE TRIER OF FACT.
BUT IN THIS CASE WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH
l
25 SOMEBODY WHO'S JUST A GANG MEMBER. I THINK HIS MENTAL l
26 CAPACITY, HIS MENTAL STATE, AS THE COURT WILL SEE IN THE
27 NEXT FEW DAYS, IS QUESTIONABLE. SO THINGS THAT HE'S l
28 PERCEIVED, THINGS THAT HE'S HEARD, HIS OPINIONS AS TO
l
l
r 108
r 1 HOW THE GANG WORKS, THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR HIM BEING
r 2 AN EXPERT TO BE ABLE TO GIVE HIS OPINIONS ON THAT, WHICH
r
3 IS WHAT HE DID.
4 THE COURT: IS HE REPORTEDLY A GANG MEMBER OF
r 5
6
THIS GANG?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE'S A SELF-PROCLAIMED GANG
r 7
8
MEMBER, YES.
THE COURT: WAS HE JUMPED IN AT SOME POINT?
r 9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE WAS JUMPED IN --
r 10
11
ACCORDING TO HIS TESTIMONY, YOUR HONOR, HE WAS JUMPED
IN. BUT WHEN HE WAS JUMPED IN AND WHERE HE WAS JUMPED
12 IN, HE'S GIVEN ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE DIFFERENT ANSWERS.
r 13 SOMETIMES IT'S ON A DAY CALLED 3-8 DAY, WHICH
r 14
15
IS A HOLIDAY FOR 38TH STREET.
NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING.
THEN HE WAS JUMPED IN THE
AND THEN HE WAS JUMPED IN AT THE
r 16
17
SPRING VALLEY HOUSE MONTHS AFTER THE SHOOTING.
HE WAS JUMPED IN BY MR. DOMINGUEZ, ACCORDING TO HIS
AND THEN
r 18 TESTIMONY. HE WAS JUMPED IN BY -- I CAN'T EVEN NAME
r 19
20
THEM OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT MAYBE 10 DIFFERENT
PEOPLE AT THREE DIFFERENT LOCATIONS AND THREE DIFFERENT
r 21
22
TIMES.
SO WAS HE JUMPED IN? ACCORDING TO HIM HE WAS.
r 23
24
BUT DEFENSE ISN'T READY TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THE WITNESS
SAYS.
r 25 THE COURT: WELL, THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE
r 26
27
28
DETERMINATION FOR ADMISSIBILITY, BUT LET'S HEAR FROM
MR. TROCHA.
MR. TROCHA: I BELIEVE ANY WITNESS CAN GIVE HIS
r
r
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109
1 OWN OPINIONS, EXPERT OR NOT, AS TO WHAT HE PERCEIVES.

l
2 ANDRES WAS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET. HE KNOWS l
3
4
THE PEOPLE IN SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET. HE CAN GIVE THE
STRUCTURE AS HE SEES IT BEING A MEMBER IN HIS OWN
, )
5 EXPERIENCE.
6 HE CAN GIVE TESTIMONY AS TO WHAT HE SAW ON THE
l
7 NIGHT OF THE MURDER. HE CAN GIVE TESTIMONY AS TO HOW
l
8
9
HE'S SEEN MR. DOMINGUEZ PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE MURDER
ITSELF, JUST AS ANY OTHER MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH
, J
10 STREET ON HIS LEVEL. JUST AS EVERY OTHER MEMBER THAT

11 WILL BE COMING BEFORE THIS COURT WHO CLAIMS TO BE A l
12 SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET MEMBER WILL TELL THE COURT FOR THE
13 DEFENSE, HE IS A SIMPLY A WITNESS TO THE ONGOINGS OF THE
l
14
15
GANG, WHICH HAPPEN TO INCORPORATE THE MURDER THAT WE'RE
IN COURT FOR TODAY.
l
16 THE COURT: WELL, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS
l
17 ISSUE IS RESOLVED BY LOOKING AT A COUPLE OF FUNDAMENTAL
18 PRINCIPLES. THE FIRST IS THAT ISSUES REGARDING l
19 CREDIBILITY OF A WITNESS ARE COMMENDED TO THE JURY. THE
20 COURT DOESN'T EXCLUDE EVIDENCE BECAUSE THE COURT DOESN'T l
21 THINK THE WITNESS IS CREDIBLE. IT'S THE TRIER OF FACT
22 THAT DECIDES THE CASE, NOT THE COURT.
l
23
24
AND I THINK THE DEFENSE WOULD FEEL IT JUST A
LITTLE BIT THIN IF THE COURT EXCLUDED DEFENSE WITNESSES
l
25 BECAUSE THE COURT FELT THAT THEY WEREN'T CREDIBLE. I l
26 THINK THAT WOULD VIOLATE THE RIGHT TO TRIAL BY JURY.
27 THE SECOND IS THAT A WITNESS HAS TO HAVE l
28 KNOWLEDGE OF THAT ABOUT WHICH HE TESTIFIES. WHETHER WE
l
l
r 110
r 1 CALL IT A LAY OPINION BASED ON HIS OBSERVATIONS OR AN
r 2 EXPERT IN THE SENSE THAT HE KNOWS MORE ABOUT SHELLTOWN
r 3
4
THAN I DO BECAUSE HE GREW UP IN THAT CULTURE AND HANGS
OUT WITH THOSE PEOPLE AND CLAIMS TO BE A MEMBER OF IT,
r 5
6
MY SENSE IS IT WOULD NOT BE PROPER TO EXCLUDE HIS
TESTIMONY.
i 7
8
I'LL ENTERTAIN SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS, BUT THE
DEFENSE IN LIMINE MOTION TO EXCLUDE HIS TESTIMONY ON THE
r 9
10
INNER WORKINGS OF THE SHELLTOWN GANG IS DENIED.
THE DEFENDANT, IN MOTION NO. 5, MOVES TO ADMIT
r 11 EVIDENCE OF NEIGHBORHOOD RUMORS CONCERNING THE
r 12
13
CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE KILLING OF MOISES LOPEZ.
THE MOTION. I THINK I UNDERSTAND IT.
I READ
IT'S A BOLD MOVE,
r 14
15
BUT, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'LL BE PLEASED TO HEAR FURTHER
ARGUMENT ON IT FROM YOU.
r 16
17 HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
BUT FORGIVE MY BRIEF.
A BOLD MOVE, CORRECT, YOUR
I DON'T THINK IT DOES
r 18 JUSTICE TO THE ENTIRETY OF IT, SO LET ME EXPOUND UPON
r 19
20
IT.
THE COURT: PLEASE GIVE ME A PROFFER.
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
CASE NAMED ISMAEL ACEVES.
THERE IS A WITNESS IN THIS
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I-S-M-A-E-L, A-C-E-V-E-S.
r 25
26
MR. ACEVES ISN'T ANYMORE, BUT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS
CASE WAS A CONFIDENTIAL INFORMANT FOR THE POLICE. HE
r 27 GAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE DETECTIVES THE DAY
r 28 AFTER THIS HAPPENED.
r
111
1
l
1 OTHER WITNESSES AND HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT
2 ACTUALLY HE WAS LOCATED IN TIJUANA ON THE NIGHT OF THE l
3 SHOOTING. BUT THE WITNESS GAVE APPROXIMATELY SIX TO
4 EIGHT DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THE NIGHT l
5
6
OF THE SHOOTING TO THE POLICE DETECTIVES, AND THOSE
STATEMENTS BY HIM SORT OF ENCOMPASSED THE EVIDENCE OR
l
7
8
THE RUMORS THAT THE DEFENSE IS REFERRING TO.
FURTHERMORE, THE DEFENSE HAS REASON TO BELIEVE
l
~
9 THAT MR. ACEVES HAS HAD CONTACT WITH ANDRES LOPEZ, BASED J
10 ON HIS STATEMENTS, AND HAD CONTACT WITH HIM BEFORE
11 ANDRES LOPEZ TALKED TO THE POLICE. THERE IS REASON TO 1
12 BELIEVE THAT MR. ACEVES HAD CONTACT WITH RAUL AGUILAR,
13 JOSUE GUTIERREZ AND GLENNYS BERUMEN.
l
14
15
IN FACT, THE DEFENSE HAS REASON TO BELIEVE THAT
MR. ACEVES USED TO DATE OR HAD A BOYFRIEND-GIRLFRIEND
l
16 RELATIONSHIP WITH MS. GLENNYS BERUMEN. AND THE DEFENSE
l
17 IS GOING TO ATTEMPT TO SHOW IN THIS CASE THAT A LOT OF
18 THE STATEMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY WITNESSES ARE l
19 BASED OFF OF RUMORS THAT THEY HEARD FROM MR. ACEVES.
20 WE HAVE THE FOUNDATION THAT THE DAY AFTER HE l
21 HAD SOME RUMORS THAT HE WAS WILLING TO SPOUT OFF, AND,
22 IN FACT, ANOTHER WITNESS, CAROL MARTINEZ, IN THIS CASE,
l
23
24
SHE STATED IN HER TESTIMONY TO POLICE OFFICERS A FEW
DAYS AFTER IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN -- I'M A LITTLE HAZY
l
25 WHETHER IT WAS THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING OR A COUPLE l
26 DAYS AFTER THE SHOOTING, AND SHE SAID SHE HAD HEARD
27 RUMORS FROM MR. ACEVES. l
28 SO WHAT WE HAVE IS SOMEBODY WHO WASN'T THERE
l
l
r 112
r 1 THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, AND WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT HE
r 2 IS SPREADING RUMORS AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD. AND ALL OF
r 3
4
THE PROSECUTION'S WITNESSES ARE -- MAYBE NOT ALL, BUT
ANDRES LOPEZ SPECIFICALLY AND GLENNYS BERUMEN ARE
5
r 6
OFFERING TESTIMONY THAT'S SIMILAR TO THE RUMORS THAT
HE'S OFFERING.
r 7
8
SO IT'S RELEVANT, IT'S MATERIAL, AND I
WOULD THINK THAT THE HEARSAY ISSUE OF IT NOT BEING
r 9 CONSIDERED FOR ITS TRUTH CAN BE CLEARED UP WITH A
r 10
11
LIMITING INSTRUCTION, BECAUSE THE DEFENSE IS NOT GOING
TO OFFER THAT THE RUMORS ARE TRUE.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA?
SURE. THANK YOU.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA: ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES RUMORS MAY BE
TRUE, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE CODE SECTION THAT WOULD ALLOW
r 16
17
THIS IN, SUCH AS IS EXHIBITED BY THE LACK OF CODE
SECTIONS OR CASE LAW CITED BY THE DEFENSE TO BRING IN
r 18 THIS TYPE OF EVIDENCE. THE EVIDENCE CODE EXISTS, THE

19 HEARSAY RULE EXISTS TO EXCLUDE PRECISELY THIS TYPE OF
r 20 INFORMATION.
r 21
22
THIS IS SOMEBODY SPREADING RUMORS. THIS IS
GLADYS CRAVITS TALKING IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD ABOUT WHAT
r 23
24
SHE THINKS OR WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT THE CASE. THERE IS
NO FOUNDATION FOR WHAT ISMAEL IS SAYING BECAUSE, AGAIN,
r 25
26
HE WAS IN MEXICO ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING
r 27 THIS WITNESS WOULD BE OTHER THAN TO CONFUSE THE JURY,
28 OTHER THAN TO HAVE THE DEFENSE BE ABLE TO POINT TO A

r
r
113
l
l
1 WITNESS IN CLOSING ARGUMENT SAYING, "LOOK, HE TOLD YOU
2 ABOUT FOUR OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE DONE IT; HE TOLD l
3 YOU ABOUT ANOTHER GANG THAT MIGHT HAVE DONE IT."
4 THAT'S THE ONLY FOUNDATION OR THE ONLY REASON l
5 THE DEFENSE WANTS TO BRING IN ISMAEL ACEVES FOR THIS
6 PURPOSE. IT IS COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT. THERE IS NO
l
7
8
FOUNDATION FOR IT.
BRING IT IN.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE CODE SECTION TO
IN FACT, THERE IS DOZENS OF EVIDENCE CODE
l
9 SECTIONS THAT SAY THIS IS PRECISELY THE TYPE OF EVIDENCE l
10 THAT DOES NOT COME IN.
11 THE COURT: MAYBE I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING THE l
12 SCOPE OF THESE RUMORS. I HAD ASSUMED FROM YOUR MOTION
13 THAT MR. ACEVES WAS SAYING THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ COMMITTED l
14
15
THE KILLING AND THAT THESE OTHER PEOPLE WERE REPEATING
THAT BASED ON WHAT HE HAD SAID.
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, THAT'S TRUE, YOUR
l
17 HONOR. THERE IS -- THAT IS ONE OF THE RUMORS.
18 THE COURT: WELL, WHAT OTHER RUMORS HAS HE l
19 SAID?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ONE OF THE RUMORS IS, "I l
21 THINK SOMEBODY NAMED STONEY DID IT." ANOTHER ONE OF THE
22 RUMORS IS THAT A RIVAL GANG DID IT.
l
23
24
AND THESE ARE NOT ALTERNATIVE THEORIES OF THE
CRIME THAT THE DEFENSE IS GOING TO PRESENT. THEY ARE
l
25 JUST THE EXISTENCE OF RUMORS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BEING l
26 SPREAD BY AN INDIVIDUAL, AND ONE OF THOSE RUMORS IS THAT
27 SPEEDY WAS THE ONE WHO DID IT. AND IF WE JUST PRESENT l
28 THAT RUMOR, THEN IT'S GOING TO PREJUDICE THE CASE,
l
l
r 114
r 1 BECAUSE
r 2 THE COURT: THAT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT'S
r 3
4
RELEVANT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BUT THE OTHERS ARE RELEVANT
r 5
6
BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE IS MISINFORMATION. WE NEED TO BE
ABLE TO PROVE THAT THIS GUY, ISMAEL ACEVES, IS SPREADING
r 7
8
MISINFORMATION AROUND. HE'S SPREADING INCONSISTENT
RUMORS AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
r 9 IF HE'S SPREADING JUST THE RUMOR THAT SPEEDY
r 10
11
DID IT, THEN THE JURY CAN INFER THAT HE'S SPREADING
CREDIBLE RUMORS OR NOT SPREADING MISINFORMATION. AND
r 12
13
THAT WOULD BE WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO PROVE.
THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU. I HAD
r 14
15
MISUNDERSTOOD THE SCOPE OF YOUR INFORMATION. I HAD
INFERRED WHEN I SAID "BOLD MOVE" THAT YOU WERE GOING TO
r 16
17
SEEK TESTIMONY THAT THE NEIGHBORHOOD RUMORS WERE THAT
r
THE DEFENDANT HAD COMMITTED THIS KILLING AND THAT'S WHAT
18 PEOPLE WERE PARROTING.
r 19
20
BUT NOW BASED ON WHAT I'VE HEARD HERE, THIS IS
A CLASSIC SITUATION WHERE EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 352
r 21
22
REQUIRES THE EXCLUSION. THE MOTION TO ADMIT EVIDENCE OF
THE NEIGHBORHOOD RUMORS REGARDING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF
r 23
24
THE MURDER IS DENIED.
THE SIXTH IN LIMINE MOTION IS TO EXCLUDE
r 25 UNCHARGED ACTS OF THE DEFENDANT, INCLUDING THAT HE WAS
r 26
27
WEARING BASEBALL GLOVES WHEN HE WAS FOUND IN A STOLEN
VEHICLE IN 1996, AND HE POSSESSED GLOVES WHEN HE WAS
r 28 ARRESTED IN THE 2004 ASSAULT CASE; BOTH FELONY OFFENSES,
r
115
1
l
1 BUT IT'S THE QUESTION OF THE GLOVES THAT WE'RE DEALING
2 WITH. l
3 THE MOTION TO EXCLUDE IS PREMISED ON 1101(B)
4 AND ADDRESSES THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THIS WOULD BE A l
5 SIGNATURE CRIME OR RELEVANT FOR ANY OTHER 1101(B) ISSUE.
6 IT SEEMS TO ME THAT I'D LIKE TO HEAR ARGUMENT
l
7
8
ON THIS.
ISSUE:
I WOULD LIKE TO INVITE CLARIFICATION OF THIS
TO THE EXTENT THAT IT MIGHT BE SHOWN THAT HE
l
9 STOLE A CAR IN 1996 AND HAD GLOVES ON THEN, AND HE HAD l
10 GLOVES ON OR POSSESSED THEM WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED IN 2004
11 FOR ASSAULT, WHEN I LOOK AT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THOSE l
12 CRIMES, THEY ARE SO DIFFERENT FROM HERE, I'M PERSUADED
13 THAT THE SIGNATURE -- MY INITIAL SENSE IS THAT
l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI IS CORRECT ON THE SIGNATURE ASPECTS OF
THAT.
l
16 BUT I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO JUST A QUESTION OF
l
17 RELEVANCE. AND I THINK IT'S RELEVANT EVIDENCE IF WE
18 EXCLUDE THE FACT THAT IT'S IN CONNECTION WITH A CRIME, l
19 IT'S RELEVANT THAT IN 1996 HE WAS WEARING GLOVES WHEN HE
20 WAS CONTACTED WITH TWO OTHER GANG MEMBERS, AND IT'S l
21 RELEVANT THAT HE WAS WEARING GLOVES IN 2004 WHEN HE WAS
22 CONTACTED BY TWO OTHER GANG MEMBERS.
l
23
24
I DON'T THINK THAT THAT EVEN BECOMES A 1101(B)
QUESTION IF THE DETAILS OF THE OFFENSES AREN'T COMING
l
25 IN. MY TENTATIVE SENSE IS THAT THAT'S ADMISSIBLE AS l
26 RELEVANT EVIDENCE UNDER THOSE GENERAL RULES OF RELEVANCY
27 THAT I COVERED A MOMENT AGO, BUT, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'LL l
28 BE PLEASED TO HEAR FROM YOU ON THIS.
l
l
r 116
r 1 I AGREE. I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE IDENTITY

r 2 EVIDENCE IN THE SENSE OF A SIGNATURE CRIME. I DON'T
r 3
4
THINK THAT THE INDICIA OF SIMILARITY ARE SUFFICIENT.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ANSWERS THE QUESTION. I THINK
r 5
6
IT'S JUST THE QUESTION OF RELEVANT EVIDENCE, BUT SHOOT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, I RESPECTFULLY
r 7
8
DISAGREE WITH THE COURT.
BE 1101(A).
IT'S 1101 -- THE GLOVES WOULD
ESSENTIALLY, THEY WOULD BE PRECLUDED BY
r 9
10
1101(A). THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THERE'S AN EXCEPTION
UNDER 1101(B).
r 11 UNDER 1101(A), CHARACTER EVIDENCE TO PROVE
r 12
13
CONDUCT IN CONFORMITY THEREWITH IS GENERALLY
INADMISSIBLE. THE SPECIFIC PAST ACT OF WEARING GLOVES
r 14
15
IS CHARACTER EVIDENCE. AND THE PROSECUTION'S THEORY IS
THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS WEARING GLOVES IN THIS PARTICULAR
r 16
17
CASE SO HE -- I MEAN IN THOSE PARTICULAR CASES, SO HE
MUST BE WEARING GLOVES NOW. THAT'S TO PROVE CONDUCT AND
r 18 CONFORMITY THEREWITH. SO I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH
r 19
20
THE ANALYSIS, AND I THINK IT'S PRECLUDED BY 1101(A).
AND UNLESS THE PROSECUTION CAN FIND EXCEPTION
r 21
22
UNDER 1101(B), AND THE ONE THEORY I THOUGHT THEY WERE
GOING TO GO ON AND ANTICIPATED IS THE THEORY OF
r 23
24
IDENTITY, WHICH IS, I THINK, CLEAR THAT THAT'S WHAT THEY
ARE TRYING TO ESTABLISH HERE, IS MR. DOMINGUEZ'S
r 25 IDENTITY. AND SO I GUESS THAT'S IT.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA?
r 28 MR. TROCHA: I'M GOING TO AGREE WITH THE COURT
r
117
l
l
1 THAT IT DOESN'T COME IN UNDER 1101(B) IF THERE'S NO
2 MENTION OF A PRIOR BAD ACT OR PRIOR CRIMINAL ACT l
3 INVOLVED WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ'S CONDUCT WHILE WEARING
4 GLOVES. IN THAT REGARD, WE HAVE MR. DOMINGUEZ ON TWO l
5 OCCASIONS WEARING PRIOR GLOVES WHILE CONTACTED BY THE
6 POLICE WHILE ASSOCIATING WITH OTHER GANG MEMBERS. THAT
l
7
8
WOULD BE RELEVANT UNDER 351 OF THE EVIDENCE CODE.
THE WAY THIS CAME IN IN THE PRIOR TRIAL IS
l
9 MR. DOMINGUEZ ALSO TOOK THE STAND, AND SEVERAL OF HIS l
10 CHARACTER WITNESSES TOOK THE STAND AND SPECIFICALLY
11 ADDRESSED THE ASSAULT IN 2004. THEY ALL CLAIMED IT WAS l
12 SELF-DEFENSE OR IT WAS A DEFENSE OF OTHERS, TO WHICH THE
13 POINT OF, "WELL, HE WAS WEARING LEATHER GLOVES AT THE
l
14
15
TIME THAT HE WAS STRIKING THESE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, SHOWS
SOME SORT OF PREPARATION ON HIS PART AND IT'S NOT
l
16 SELF-DEFENSE."
l
17 THAT IS HOW IT CAME IN IN THE PRIOR TRIAL, AND
18 I WOULD ANTICIPATE THE SAME ISSUE COMING UP IN THIS l
19 TRIAL AS WELL.
20 SO I THINK THE BASIS WOULD BE TWO-FOLD AND BOTH l
21 WOULD SKIRT 1101(B), HENCE THE REASON THE PEOPLE DIDN'T
22 FILE A MOTION ON THIS PARTICULAR TRIAL.
l
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: SURE.
MAY I BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?
l
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE GLOVES IN THE AWD IN '04 l
26
27
WERE ACTUALLY A PAIR OF WHITE FRANKLIN BATTING GLOVES,
AND THE GLOVES IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE ARE BLACK LEATHER
.,
1
28 GLOVES. I'M NOT SURE HOW RELEVANT THAT FACT IS. I JUST
l
l
r 118
r 1 WANTED TO MAKE THE COURT AWARE OF IT.
r 3
4
LET'S TAKE THE RECESS. WE'LL RECONVENE AT
QUARTER BEFORE THE HOUR AND I'LL PRESS AHEAD. THANK YOU
r 5
6
BOTH. WE'LL BE IN RECESS UNTIL QUARTER TILL 11.
(MID-MORNING RECESS TAKEN.)
r 7
8 RECORD.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'RE BACK ON THE
THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r 9 AGAINST FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL
r 10
11
PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED ARE PRESENT.
WE ADDRESS THE SIXTH IN LIMINE MOTION BY THE
12 DEFENSE. THIS IS A MOTION TO EXCLUDE UNCHARGED ACTS OF
r 13 THE DEFENDANT, INCLUDING THAT HE WAS WEARING BASEBALL
r 14
15
GLOVES WHEN HE WAS FOUND IN A STOLEN VEHICLE IN 1996,
AND THAT HE POSSESSED BLACK GLOVES WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED
r 16
17
IN 2004 IN AN ASSAULT CASE.
I DON'T VIEW THIS AS CHARACTER EVIDENCE.
r 18 CHARACTER EVIDENCE IS EVIDENCE OF A TRAIT OF CHARACTER
r 19
20
FROM WHICH THE INFERENCE IS DRAWN THAT THE PERSON ACTED
IN CONFORMANCE WITH THAT TRAIT ON THE INCIDENT IN
r 21
22
QUESTION. IT IS TRUE THAT 1101 SAYS NORMALLY CHARACTER
EVIDENCE MAY NOT BE USED, AT LEAST OF THE ACCUSED.
r 23
24
HOWEVER, 1101(B) SAYS THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS,
EVEN ALLOWING CHARACTER EVIDENCE IF IT'S RELEVANT FOR
r 25 SOME OTHER FACT THAN CONDUCT IN CONFORMANCE THEREWITH.

THE REAL PROBLEM WITH CHARACTER EVIDENCE, AS IS BEING
r
26
27 DEALT WITH IN SECTION 1101, IS PREJUDICIAL EFFECT OF
r 28 INTRODUCING OTHER BAD ACTS OF THE ACCUSED TO SHOW THAT
r
119
l
l
1 HE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS CASE.
2 AS THE APPELLATE COURTS HAVE SAID, THE PROBLEM l
3 WITH THAT EVIDENCE IS NOT THAT IT PROVES TOO LITTLE, BUT
4 IT PROVES TOO MUCH. IT'S PREJUDICIAL, AND THERE IS A l
5 CONCERN THAT JURORS WILL EITHER CONCLUDE THAT HE'S JUST
6 A PERSON OF BAD CHARACTER, AND WHETHER HE DID THIS CRIME
l
7
8
OR NOT HE DESERVES TO BE PUNISHED FOR IT, OR THEY WILL
IN SOME FASHION MISUSE THAT EVIDENCE.
l
9 NONE OF THOSE THINGS OBTAIN WITH RESPECT TO THE l
10 QUESTION OF PRIOR POSSESSION OF GLOVES. THIS ISN'T
11 CHARACTER EVIDENCE. IT IS A CIRCUMSTANCE THAT AIDS IN l
12 IDENTIFICATION.
13 IT IS TRUE THAT IT'S NOT ENTIRELY UNHEARD OF l
14
15
THAT PEOPLE WOULD WEAR VARIOUS FORMS OF GLOVES, AND IT'S
PERHAPS MORE COMMON IN THE GANG CULTURE, EVEN HERE ON
l
16 THE WEST COAST. PEOPLE HARDLY EVER WEAR GLOVES ON THE
l
17 WEST COAST UNLESS IT'S FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AT
18 LEAST HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WHERE IT'S WARM, l
19 UNLESS THEY'RE WORK GLOVES OR BATTING GLOVES OR
20 WORKING-OUT GLOVES OR BOXING GLOVES. l
21 BUT SOME PEOPLE IN THE GANG CULTURE DO WEAR
22 WORKOUT GLOVES AND BATTING GLOVES AND OTHER KINDS OF
l
23
24
GLOVES, BUT THE FACT IS IT IS A CIRCUMSTANCE THAT AIDS
IN IDENTIFICATION. IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY CHARACTER
l
25 EVIDENCE OVERTONES. AN ANALOGY MIGHT BE A FEDORA HAT l
26 LIKE IN THE OLD PRIVATE DETECTIVE MOVIES.
27 IF THE EVIDENCE WAS THAT THAT WAS A LINK IN THE l
28 CURRENT CASE, AND WE HAD TWO PRIOR INSTANCES WHERE A
l
l
r 120
r 1 PERSON WAS WEARING A FEDORA HAT, WHICH IN 2011 IS KIND
r 2 OF UNCOMMON HERE ON THE WEST COAST, THAT COULD COME IN.
r 3
4
IT DOESN'T HAVE CHARACTER EVIDENCE OVERTONES.
THE MOTION TO EXCLUDE, IN LIMINE NO. 6, IS
r 5
6
DENIED.
NOW, THE PEOPLE MOVE -- I ADDRESS THIS NOW
r 7
8
BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A LOGICAL TIME TO DO THIS -- THE
PEOPLE MOVE TO ADMIT EVIDENCE OF THE DEFENDANT'S FELONY
r 9
10
CONVICTIONS FOR IMPEACHMENT PURPOSES IF HE TESTIFIES.
THESE CONVICTIONS ARE SPECIFIED TO BE A 1996 CONVICTION
r 11 FOR VIOLATING VEHICLE CODE SECTION 10851, AND, IF I
r 12
13
UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY, HIS 2004 CONVICTION FOR PENAL CODE
SECTION 245(A) (1). I'M TOLD BOTH OF THESE ARE FELONIES.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA, DO YOU WISH TO ARGUE?
MR. TROCHA: JUST THAT IF -- I BELIEVE BOTH
r 16
17
SHOULD COME IN IF THE DEFENDANT WERE TO TESTIFY, AND
ALSO TO IMPEACH CHARACTER WITNESSES ALONG THE LINE OF,
r 18 "WOULD IT CHANGE YOUR OPINION IF YOU KNEW THIS?" DO YOU
r 19
20
KNOW THIS?" AND QUESTIONS OF THAT NATURE TO REBUT THE
CHARACTER TRAIT THAT'S PLACED INTO RELEVANCE BY THE
r 21
22
DEFENSE.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ON BOTH MOTIONS?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ON THE IMPEACHMENT MOTION BY
r 25
26
THE PROSECUTION, THE 1996 CONVICTION IS 15 YEARS OLD; AT
THE TIME OF THE COMMISSION OF THE CRIME WAS 13 YEARS
r 27 OLD. ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT IS TO BE CONSIDERED UNDER
r 28 CASE LAW IS THE REMOTENESS IN TIME OF A PRIOR
r
121
1
l
1 CONVICTION.
2 IN 1996 THE DEFENDANT WAS, I THINK, 18 YEARS l
3 OLD. HE'S NOW 33. AND AT THE TIME OF THIS CRIME HE WAS
4 31. I THINK THE REMOTENESS HERE MAKES IT -- YOU KNOW, l
5 AS FAR AS IMPEACHING HIM FOR CREDIBILITY OF A 1996
6 POSSESSION OF STOLEN VEHICLE CHARGE WHEN HE WAS A
l
7
8
TEENAGER I THINK IS HARDLY RELEVANT.
I THINK ALSO, AS FAR AS THE CHARACTER
l
9 WITNESSES, WHAT THEY THINK OF HIM, DID THEY KNOW THAT l
10 WHEN HE WAS A TEENAGER HE GOT ARRESTED OR CHARGED AND
11 CONVICTED OF POSSESSION OF A STOLEN VEHICLE WHEN HE WAS l
12 18 YEARS OLD, AGAIN, PREJUDICIAL, I THINK, AND
13 MARGINALLY RELEVANT. THAT'S ALL. l
14
15
I THINK THE QUESTION OF IMPEACHMENT ASKS A
l
16 COUPLE OF THINGS. FIRST, IS IT A CRIME OF MORAL
l
17 TURPITUDE? BOTH OF THESE OFFENSES ARE. BUT THE MORE
18 CRITICAL QUESTION IS WHETHER SECTION 352 REQUIRES THAT l
19 THEY BE EXCLUDED. I'VE ALREADY DESCRIBED WHAT THE
20 FACTORS IN SECTION 352 ARE. l
21 CERTAINLY, THE AGE OF THE CONVICTION IS A
22 RELEVANT CONSIDERATION BECAUSE ITS RELEVANCE TENDS TO BE
l
23
24
WATERED DOWN THE OLDER IT GETS.
THE MORE PEOPLE MIGHT CHANGE.
THE MORE TIME PASSES,
OF COURSE, INTERVENING
l
25 CONVICTIONS I THINK THEN NEGATE THAT THEORY. l
26 LOOKS TO ME AS THOUGH HERE ABOUT EVERY SEVEN OR
27 EIGHT YEARS, GOING BACK TWICE, HE'S PICKED UP A CRIME OF l
28 MORAL TURPITUDE. I THINK THAT THEY DO HAVE PROBATIVE
l
l
r 122
r 1 VALUE ON THE ISSUE OF HIS TRUTHFULNESS IF HE TESTIFIES.
r 2
3
I THINK THAT GIVEN THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THE
2004 CONVICTION, THEN THE 1996 CONVICTION IS NOT TOO
r 4 REMOTE. AS I SAY, WE GET ONE IN '96, AND THEN WE GET
r 5
6
ONE EIGHT YEARS LATER, AND THEN WE GET ONE LESS THAN
THAT LATER, OR AT LEAST THE CURRENT INCIDENT. LET ME
r 7
8
BEGIN AGAIN.
HE GETS ONE IN '96, HE GETS ONE EIGHT YEARS
r 9 LATER IN 2004, AND THEN SEVEN YEARS LATER HE'S ON THE

10
r
WITNESS STAND WHICH IS WHEN HIS CREDIBILITY IS IN ISSUE.
11 I DON'T BELIEVE THAT 352 REQUIRES THAT THESE BE
r 12
13
EXCLUDED, AND I'M GOING TO GRANT THE MOTION TO IMPEACH.
THAT CAN BE DONE BY THE DATE AND TIME AND PLACE AND NAME
r 14
15
OF THE CRIME, BUT WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SPECIFIC DETAILS
OF THE OFFENSE.
r 16 SO THE PEOPLE'S MOTION IN LIMINE TO ADMIT
r
17 EVIDENCE OF THESE FELONY CONVICTIONS, ADDRESSING THE
18 CLERK, IS GRANTED. THIS IS AS IMPEACHMENT EVIDENCE IF
r 19
20
THE DEFENDANT ELECTS TO TESTIFY.
NOW, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CHARACTER EVIDENCE,
r 21
22
THE CONSIDERATIONS ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
ARE ONLY TWO FORMS OF CHARACTER EVIDENCE THAT ARE
THERE
r 23
24
RELEVANT IN A TRIAL LIKE THIS. ONE IS A PERSON'S
CHARACTER FOR TRUTHFULNESS, AND THE OTHER IS EVIDENCE OF
r 25
26
A PERSON'S CHARACTER FOR A TRAIT THAT IS INCONSISTENT
WITH THE COMMISSION OF THIS OFFENSE.
r 27 IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THESE CONVICTIONS ARE
ADMISSIBLE IF CHARACTER EVIDENCE IS OFFERED TO THE
r 28
r
123
l
l
1 FOLLOWING EXTENT: IF THERE IS CHARACTER EVIDENCE
2 OFFERED THAT HE'S A TRUTHFUL PERSON, THEN BOTH l
3 CONVICTIONS ARE ADMISSIBLE. IF THE DEFENDANT TESTIFIES,
4 BOTH CONVICTIONS ARE ADMISSIBLE TO IMPEACH HIM WITH. l
5 BUT IF HE CALLS A CHARACTER WITNESS THAT SAYS, "I'VE
6 ALWAYS FOUND HIM TO BE A TRUTHFUL PERSON AND I BELIEVE
l
7
8
HIM TO BE TRUTHFUL AND HIS REPUTATION IS TRUTHFUL," THEN
THE PEOPLE CAN ASK ABOUT BOTH CONVICTIONS.
l
9 IF CHARACTER EVIDENCE IS PROFFERED FROM A l
10 WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE THAT GOES TO HIM BEING
11 A NONVIOLENT PERSON OR HAVING A CHARACTER TRAIT THAT IS l
12 INCONSISTENT WITH THE COMMISSION OF A CRIMINAL HOMICIDE,
13 THEN THE 2004 CONVICTION IS A PROPER SUBJECT OF l
14
15
EXAMINATION AND, IF NEED BE, PROOF BY INDEPENDENT
EVIDENCE.
l
16 SO ADDRESSING THE CLERK, THE NEXT IN LIMINE
l
17 MOTION IS THIS: THE PEOPLE MOVE TO ADMIT THROUGH
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION EVIDENCE OF DEFENDANT'S 2004 l
19 CONVICTION FOR SECTION 245(A) (1) IF THE DEFENDANT
20 INTRODUCES EVIDENCE OF HIS GOOD CHARACTER, AND THAT l
21 MOTION IS GRANTED.
22 OKAY. DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 7 IS TO
l
23
24
LIMIT THE ADMISSION OF AUTOPSY PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE
VICTIM.
l
25 WHAT PHOTOGRAPHS DO YOU PROPOSE, MR. TROCHA? l
26 MR. TROCHA: I BELIEVE THERE WAS ABOUT TWO
27 DOZEN LAST TIME, YOUR HONOR, AND THEY WERE IN EVIDENCE, l
28 OF THE GUNSHOT WOUNDS AS WELL AS BLUNT FORCE AND SHARP
l
l
r 124
r 1 FORCE TRAUMA AS A RESULT OF A BEATING.
r 2 THE COURT: ARE ANY OF THEM OF THE BODY AS
r
3 OPENED UP?
4 MR. TROCHA: NO. THEY ARE ALL -- SOME ARE
r 5
6
PREWASHING, THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE POSTWASHING OF THE
BODY. THE BODY IS NUDE, BUT THERE ISN'T ANY EXPOSED
r 7
8
GENITALIA OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE THAT I CAN RECALL.
MOST OF IT IS FROM THE CHEST TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD.
r 9 AND THEN WE ALSO HAD PICTURES OF THE LOWER EXTREMITIES
r 10
11
TO SHOW A LACK OF INJURY TO THOSE LIMBS AND TORSO
REGIONS, BECAUSE OUR THEORY WAS THE FOCUS OF THE BEATING
12 IS FROM THE CHEST UP. THAT'S WHERE THE WITNESSES

iL
13 DESCRIBE THE BEATING TAKING PLACE, AND THE INJURIES BEAR
r 14
15
THAT OUT.
THE REASON THERE IS SO MANY OF THEM, EVEN
r 16
17
THOUGH THE CAUSE OF DEATH IS NOT IN ISSUE HERE, IS TO
SHOW BOTH THE BEATING AND THE SHOOTING INJURIES FOR THE
r 18 PURPOSES OF OUR MOTIVE IN THIS CASE THAT THIS IS A
r 19
20
PUNISHMENT TYPE, PERSONAL TYPE MURDER, AS OPPOSED TO A
RANDOM KILLING IN A PARK.
r 21
22
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. SPEREDELOZZI -- I
GUESS MY THOUGHT IS MAYBE THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THIS IS
r 23
24
THIS: WHEN YOU HAVE THE ONES IDENTIFIED THAT YOU WANT
TO PUT IN, IF MR. SPEREDELOZZI HAS SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS
r 25 TO THOSE, I'LL BE GLAD TO HEAR THEM, AND I'LL TAKE A
r 26
27
LOOK AT THEM OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY AND SAY,
"THIS COMES IN; THIS DOESN'T."
r 28 MY SENSE IS MR. SPEREDELOZZI IN HIS MOTION HERE
r
125
l
l
1 CORRECTLY RELATES THE LAW. I THINK WE ALL KNOW WHAT
2 THOSE GENERAL PRINCIPLES ARE. THE PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED 1
3 TO INTRODUCE RELEVANT EVIDENCE, AND THE PEOPLE AREN'T
4 REQUIRED TO MAKE THIS OTHER THAN A KILLING AND A l
5 BEATING. ON THE OTHER HAND, GRATUITOUSLY INFLAMMATORY
6 MATERIAL SHOULDN'T COME IN.
l
7
8
IT SOUNDS TO ME AS THOUGH -- AND THIS WAS THE
BASIS OF MY QUESTION -- I WOULDN'T LET IN, IN THIS CASE,
l
9 PICTURES OF THE BODY OPENED UP, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SOUND l
10 LIKE BULLET PATHS AND SO FORTH ARE GOING TO BE
11 PARTICULARLY AT ISSUE. l
12 MY SENSE IS THAT PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE EXTERNAL
13 BODY SHOWING WOUNDS AND CONTUSIONS AND ENTRANCE AND EXIT l
14
15
WOUNDS ARE LIKELY TO BE RELEVANT AND ADMISSIBLE, UNLESS
THEY ARE CUMULATIVE. SO, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'M GLAD TO
l
16 HEAR ARGUMENT ON YOU FURTHER FROM THIS, BUT MY THOUGHT
l
17 IS TO HAVE THE TWO OF YOU MEET AND CONFER, AND THEN IF
18 THERE ARE ONES THAT YOU DISAGREE ON, THE DAY BEFORE OR l
19 THE SESSION BEFORE WE ARE GOING TO GET TO THAT, LET'S
20 TALK OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY AND I'LL MAKE THE l
21 CALL.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE,
l
23
24
YOUR HONOR. THE WITNESS WHO'S GOING TO AUTHENTICATE AND
TESTIFY ABOUT THESE IS OTHON MENA, SO JUST THE DAY
l
25 BEFORE HE TESTIFIES, IF I CAN JUST SEE. I KNOW THERE l
26 ARE SOME SPECIFIC ONES THAT I WOULD HAVE IF THE
27 PROSECUTOR WAS TO TRYING TO ADMIT THOSE PARTICULAR ONES, l
28 SO I GUESS THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH IT IS DO IT LIKE
l
l
r
r
126
1 THE COURT HAS INDICATED.

r 2 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, IDENTIFY THE ONES THAT
r 3
4
IN A PERFECT WORLD YOU WOULD GET IN, SHOW THEM TO
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, AND THE CHANCES ARE THERE IS NOT GOING
r 5
6
TO BE OBJECTIONS TO SOME OF THEM, BUT IF SOME OF THEM
THERE ARE, THEN I'LL MAKE THE CALL.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
GREAT. THANK YOU.
SO I'LL SHOW THE DEFENDANT'S
r
L 9 SEVENTH IN LIMINE MOTION, THE COURT DEFERS RULING UNTIL
10 THE COURT SEES THE PHOTOGRAPHS.
r 11 DEFENDANT'S EIGHTH MOTION IN LIMINE, AN
r 12
13
INTERESTING ONE. THIS IS A MOTION TO ADMIT HEARSAY
TESTIMONY REGARDING THE STATEMENT OF JOSE GALVAN.
r 14
15
MR. GALVAN IS A DEFENSE WITNESS WHO WAS INTERVIEWED BY
THE POLICE BUT WHO CANNOT BE FOUND AND, IT APPEARS, MAY
r 16 HAVE BEEN DEPORTED.

17 IN VIEW OF HIS UNAVAILABILITY, THE DEFENSE
r 18 URGES THAT HIS STATEMENT TO THE POLICE BE ADMITTED,

19 WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE NOT BE REQUIRED BY THE -- WOULD
r 20 NOT BE ALLOWED BY THAT HEARSAY RULE.
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, SHOOT.
r 23
24
THIS IS, LIKE I SAID, YOU KNOW, ADMITTEDLY
SCOURING THE EVIDENCE CODE TO FIND A HEARSAY EXCEPTION
r 25 FOR THIS AND COULD NOT, SO I'M FALLING BACK ON THE
r 26 RESIDUAL HEARSAY EXCEPTION. AND I DON'T THINK I NEED TO
27 EXPLAIN THE LAW OF THAT TO THE COURT. I THINK THE
r 28 COURT'S WELL AWARE OF WHAT THAT IS, SO LET ME JUST
r
127
1
1
1 EXPLAIN THE FACTS AS I SEE THEM OR AS THE DEFENSE SEES
2 THEM. l
3 THIS WITNESS WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE
4 EITHER THE NIGHT OF OR THE MORNING AFTER THE SHOOTING,
l
5
6
SOMETIME AFTER THE SHOOTING, I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS
BEFORE MIDNIGHT OR AFTER, AND TESTIFIED THAT THREE OR
l
7
8
FOUR PEOPLE JUMPED THE FENCE TO WHERE HIS TRAILER IS
LOCATED, RAN PAST HIM, AND THEN LATER HE'S THE WITNESS
l
9 WHO FOUND THE GLOVES THAT ARE AT ISSUE IN THIS CASE AS l
10 WELL. SO HE'S A RELATIVELY IMPORTANT WITNESS.
11 AND HE INDICATED TO DETECTIVE NAVARRO THAT IF l
12 HE WAS -- THE TWO MALES THAT HE SAW, HE SAW TWO MALES
13 AND ONE FEMALE -- HE INDICATED THAT IF HE SAW THEM
l
14
15
AGAIN, HE WOULD BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THEM.
SO DETECTIVE NAVARRO CAME BACK ABOUT A MONTH
l
16 LATER ON OCTOBER 16TH -- THIS SHOOTING HAPPENED ON
l
17 SEPTEMBER 13TH, SO IT WAS A LITTLE OVER A MONTH LATER
18 AND SHOWED HIM TWO PHOTO LINEUPS, ONE OF TOMAS LOPEZ AND l
19 ANOTHER ONE WITH FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, THE DEFENDANT IN
20 THIS CASE, AND HE INDICATED HE COULD NOT IDENTIFY EITHER l
21 OF THOSE AS THE TWO PEOPLE WHO JUMPED THE FENCE.
22 SO IT IS GOING TO BE OFFERED FOR ITS TRUTH. IT
l
23
24
IS HEARSAY AND WOULD NORMALLY BE INADMISSIBLE.
MR. GALVAN IS SOMEBODY WHO MY INVESTIGATOR HAS BEEN
l
25 LOOKING FOR FOR QUITE SOME TIME. AND WE'VE HAD l
26 INFORMATION FOR A WHILE THAT HE'S BEEN IN MEXICO, AND WE
27 INTERVIEWED -- I DON'T KNOW THE NAME, BUT THE PERSON l
28 WHO'S LIVING AT THAT TRAILER CURRENTLY, AND HE CONFIRMED
l
l
r 128
r 1 THAT THE PERSON -- HE DOES KNOW WHO JOSE ALBERTO GALVAN

r 2 IS, AND HE'S BEEN IN MEXICO FOR A YEAR, I GUESS
r 3
4
ACCORDING TO HIM, IN SOUTHERN MEXICO, AND HE HASN'T SEEN
HIM OR TALKED TO HIM IN A LONG TIME.
r 5
6
IN THE DEFENSE'S --WELL, IT'S A TOUGH ISSUE,
BECAUSE AT THE TIME HE WAS SHOWN THE PHOTO LINEUPS, IT'S
r 7
8
UNCLEAR WHETHER OR NOT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS A SUSPECT IN
THE CASE. HE MAY HAVE BEEN, HE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN, BUT
r 9 FOR SOME REASON HE WAS A PERSON OF INTEREST TO THE
r 10
11
DETECTIVES, BECAUSE THEY WERE SHOWING PHOTO LINEUPS TO
WITNESSES OF THE DEFENDANT.
r 12
13
AND WHEN HE WASN'T ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE
DEFENDANT, THAT IS POTENTIALLY EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE,
r 14
15
ALBEIT THE DETECTIVES MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN THAT AT THE
TIME BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S UNCLEAR WHETHER HE WAS A
r 16
17
SUSPECT OR NOT. SO THERE IS NO CONTACT INFORMATION FOR
HIM, AND, AGAIN, HE'S UNAVAILABLE. I DON'T BELIEVE
r 18 THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE AT ALL THAT EITHER PARTIES IN THIS

19 CASE WOULD BE ABLE TO SUMMON THIS PERSON OR ELSE HE
r 20 WOULD CERTAINLY BE CALLED INTO COURT.
r 21
22
HE IS ON THE PROSECUTOR'S WITNESSES LIST.
IS ON THE DEFENSE'S WITNESS LIST. SO IF HE DOES POP UP
HE
r 23
24
AND SOMEBODY GETS A SUBPOENA TO HIM, HE WILL CERTAINLY
HAVE TO COME. BUT WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO PROCURE HIS
r 25 PRESENCE, I THINK THE LACK OF IDENTIFICATION OF
r
26 MR. DOMINGUEZ BY HIM IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. SO THE
27 SUBSTANTIAL NEED PRONG OF THE ARGUMENT IS MET.
28 THE ISSUE HERE IS WHETHER IT'S INHERENTLY

r
r
129
l
l
1 RELIABLE. THAT'S THE ONE THAT'S A LITTLE FUZZY. ONE OF
2 THE FACTS THAT I THINK POINTS TO HIS NONIDENTIFICATION l
3 AS BEING INHERENTLY RELIABLE IS THAT HIS WILLINGNESS TO
4 TALK TO THE DETECTIVES AND HIS WILLINGNESS TO HELP. l
5 AGAIN, WHEN HE FIRST TALKED TO DETECTIVE
6 NAVARRO, HE STATED THAT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY
l
7
8
THESE PEOPLE. SO THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT HE WOULD
PRETEND NOT TO IDENTIFY THESE PEOPLE JUST TO GET OUT OF
l
9 HAVING TO COME TO COURT, BECAUSE HE WAS, AGAIN, WILLING l
10 TO AT THAT POINT. SO ON THAT, I SUBMIT.
11 THE COURT: THANK YOU. l
12 MR. TROCHA.
13 MR. TROCHA: I THINK COUNSEL HAS ALSO l
14
15
IDENTIFIED THE INHERENT PROBLEM WITH THAT IS HE'S NOT
SUBJECT TO CROSS-EXAMINATION, ESPECIALLY ON THE KEY
l
16 ISSUE THE DEFENSE WANTS TO BRING HIM IN ON, WHICH IS HIS
l
17 INABILITY TO MAKE AN IDENTIFICATION OUT OF A SIX-PACK.
18 IS IT TRULY THESE ARE NOT THE RIGHT PEOPLE, OR IS IT HIS l
19 UNWILLINGNESS TO COOPERATE WITH THE POLICE OR BE A
20 WITNESS IN COURT, GIVEN HIS IMMIGRATION STATUS ON TOP OF l
21 EVERYTHING ELSE, NOT WANTING TO COME IN COURT FOR FEAR
22 OF POSSIBLY BEING DEPORTED?
l
23
24
THE FINAL ONE I CAN THINK OF IS I'VE HAD PEOPLE
THROUGHOUT MY CAREER SAYING, "I CAN IDENTIFY THIS PERSON
l
25 IF I SEE HIM AGAIN," THEY SEE A SIX-PACK, THEY CAN'T l
26 MAKE AN IDENTIFICATION, BUT AS SOON AS THEY SEE THE
27 PERSON, THEY MAKE A IDENTIFICATION EITHER IN THE LIVE l
28 LINEUP, A CURBSTONE LINEUP OR IN COURT. SO THERE IS
l
l
r 130
r 1 INHERENT PROBLEMS WITH SIX-PACKS IN THE NATURE OF
r 2
3
THEMSELVES. I THINK BECAUSE OF THESE ISSUES WE CAN'T
JUST LET IT IN WITHOUT ANY REASON OR WITHOUT A HEARSAY

r 4 EXCEPTION.
r 5
6
THE COURT: THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE,
AND I'VE READ THE IN LIMINE MOTION. I CONSIDER THIS
r 7
8
ISSUE FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION AS WELL. AND I WOULD
INDICATE THAT MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S -- IT'S EVIDENT TO ME
r 9 THAT MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S PREPARATION AND RESEARCH IN THIS

10 CASE HAVE BEEN OUTSTANDING.
r 11 I HAVE DONE A NUMBER OF TRIALS IN MY CAREER AS
r 12
13
A PROSECUTOR AND AS A DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND, OF COURSE,
AS A JUDGE, INCLUDING A NUMBER OF MURDER TRIALS, AND I
r 14
15
RARELY SEE THE ATTENTION TO DETAIL AND THE
IDENTIFICATION OF LEGAL ISSUES THAT I'VE SEEN IN THIS
r 16 CASE.
I DO THINK THERE'S ANOTHER DIMENSION TO THIS
17
r 18 QUESTION, AND I WANT THE RECORD TO BE CLEAR THAT I'M
r 19
20
CONSIDERING IT.
COME IN.
I'M NOT GOING TO ALLOW THE EVIDENCE TO
r 21
22
THAT OTHER DIMENSION, HOWEVER, IS THE
CONSTITUTIONAL ONE. THE CASE IS CHAMBERS V.
r 23
24
MISSISSIPPI. AND CHAMBERS V. MISSISSIPPI STANDS FOR THE
PROPOSITION THAT A STATE'S HEARSAY RULES MAY NOT BE
r 25 MECHANISTICALLY APPLIED TO DEFEAT JUSTICE OR TO DENY A

PERSON DUE PROCESS UNDER THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.
r
26
27 I THINK THE REAL QUESTION IS WHETHER THE
r 28 EXCLUSION OF THIS EVIDENCE PRECLUDES OR AMOUNTS TO A
\
131
1
l
1 DENIAL OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S RIGHT TO PRESENT A DEFENSE.
2 THAT'S A RIGHT THAT IS PART OF THE FIFTH AND 14TH l
3 AMENDMENT DUE PROCESS CLAUSES AND PART OF THE SIXTH
4 AMENDMENT RIGHT TO COMPULSORY PROCESS AND TO THE l
5 EFFECTIVE ASSISTANCE OF COUNSEL.
6 I MENTIONED CHAMBERS V. MISSISSIPPI TO YOU.
l
7
8
THERE IS ANOTHER RECENT CASE FROM THE NINTH CIRCUIT
WHICH I JUST COMMEND TO YOU FOR FUTURE REFERENCE. IT'S
l
9 LUNBERY, L-U-N-B-E-R-Y, V. HORNBEAK, H-0-R-N-B-E-A-K. l
10 IT'S AT 605 F.3D AT PAGE 754, AND IT GIVES A GOOD
11 DISCUSSION OF THESE PRINCIPLES, AND IT REFERS BACK TO l
12 CHAMBERS V. MISSISSIPPI. '1
13 I THINK THAT'S A WHOLE LOT OF WORDS TO SAY J
14
15
THIS: IF HEARSAY SEEMS TO BE RELIABLE AND IF ITS
EXCLUSION UNDER STATE EVIDENCE CODE RULES WOULD AMOUNT
l
16 TO A DENIAL OF THESE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, THEN THE
l
17 CONSTITUTION REQUIRES THAT IT BE ADMITTED
18 NOTWITHSTANDING THE STATE'S EVIDENCE CODE. l
19 IN THE LUNBERY CASE, THE NINTH CIRCUIT GRANTED
20 HABEAS RELIEF ON A MURDER CONVICTION OUT OF CALIFORNIA l
21 STATE COURTS WHERE THE JUDGE HAD EXCLUDED HEARSAY THAT
22 WAS PROFFERED UNDER THE DECLARATION AGAINST PENAL
l
23
24
INTEREST RULE. THE HEARSAY DECLARANT HAD COME UP TO A
WITNESS NOT LONG AFTER THE KILLING AND MADE A COMMENT TO
l
25 THE EFFECT OF "THIS IS REALLY UNFORTUNATE. MY FRIENDS l J
26 BLEW AWAY THE WRONG GUY." AND THERE WAS DRUG

27 INVOLVEMENT THAT YOU CAN READ ABOUT. l
28 WELL, THE FRIEND WASN'T BEING PROSECUTED, THE
l
i
r 132
r
I
1 DEFENDANT'S WIFE WAS BEING PROSECUTED, AND THE NINTH
r
L 2 CIRCUIT -- THE CALIFORNIA STATE COURTS HELD THAT THAT
3 STATEMENT WAS NOT ADMISSIBLE HEARSAY, AND THE NINTH
r
l 4 CIRCUIT SAID, "WE'RE NOT GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER IT WAS
r 5
6
ADMISSIBLE OR NOT UNDER CALIFORNIA STATE LAW, BUT THE
DUE PROCESS CLAUSE REQUIRED IT TO BE ADMITTED," AND THEY
l 7
8
WENT BACK TO CHAMBERS V. MISSISSIPPI WHICH HAD TO DO
WITH CONSTITUTIONAL DIMENSION, I THINK, OF THIRD-PARTY
r:m
l 9 CULPABILITY EVIDENCE.
r 10
11
THE OFFER OF PROOF IS THAT MR. GALVAN STATED
THAT HE COULD NOT RECOGNIZE ANYBODY IN THE PHOTO ARRAY.
r 12
13
HE DIDN'T SAY, "THE GUY'S NOT HERE," OR, "THIS IS
ABSOLUTELY NOT THE GUY," OR MAKE A STATEMENT TO THAT
r 14
15
EXTENT. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE QUESTION IS, UNDER THE
RESIDUAL HEARSAY EXCEPTION THAT MR. SPEREDELOZZI CITES
r 16
17
AND UNDER THE CONSTITUTIONAL DIMENSION, IS THIS THE KIND
OF LINCHPIN EVIDENCE THAT THE FIFTH AND SIXTH AND 14TH
r 18 AMENDMENTS REQUIRE TO BE ADMITTED EVEN IF IT'S HEARSAY,
r 19
20
AND I FIND IT IS NOT THAT KIND OF EVIDENCE.
IT IS SUBJECT TO A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT
r 21
22
INTERPRETATIONS, AS MR. TROCHA POINTS OUT. THERE ARE A
WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES THAT GO TO THE WEIGHT OF THIS
r 23
24
EVIDENCE AND THAT WOULD BE THE PROPER SUBJECT OF
CROSS-EXAMINATION. THERE ARE ISSUES THAT WE ALL KNOW
r 25 FROM EXPERIENCE WATER IT DOWN, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT
r 26
27
PEOPLE FREQUENTLY CANNOT RECOGNIZE SOMEBODY FROM A
PHOTOGRAPH BUT CAN RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN A LIVE LINEUP
r 28 OR IN REAL LIFE.
r
133
l J
1 ALSO, THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE HEARSAY RULE.

2 IN OTHER WORDS, THIS DOESN'T GO TO SOME TECHNICAL l
3 EXCEPTION OR THE QUESTION OF WHETHER ALL THE ELEMENTS OF
4 SOME EXCEPTION TO THE HEARSAY RULE WERE MET. THIS IS l
5 THE FUNDAMENTAL HEARSAY RULE RIGHT HERE, AND I THINK FOR
6 THOSE REASONS THE MOTION TO ADMIT MR. GALVAN'S PRIOR
l
7
8
HEARSAY STATEMENTS MUST BE DENIED AND THAT IS MY RULING.
OKAY. MOTION 9 IS A MOTION TO EXCLUDE AUDIO
l
9 AND VIDEO EVIDENCE OF DANIEL ZEPEDA'S, Z-E-P-E-D-A, l
10 OUT-OF-COURT STATEMENTS. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE MOTION
11 SAYS THAT THEY'RE NOT PROPERLY INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS l
12 AS CONTEMPLATED BY THE EVIDENCE CODE. I'M NOT SURE HOW
13 TO RULE ON THIS IN A VACUUM. l
14
15
MR. TROCHA: IF I CAN INTERRUPT, WE'RE NOT
CALLING DANIEL ZEPEDA, SO WE'RE NOT SEEKING TO INTRODUCE
l
~
16 ANYTHING OF HIS.
~
17 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ANY OBJECTION IF
18 I DEFER RULING ON THIS MOTION UNTIL SUCH TIME. AS IT l
19 MIGHT BECOME RIPE IF THAT SITUATION CHANGES?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S FINE. l
21 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE COURT WILL DEFER
22 RULING ON THIS MOTION AS IT DOES NOT APPEAR THAT
l
23 MR. ZEPEDA WILL BE CALLED. IF THAT CHANGES, WE'LL HEAR
l
24
25
IT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MAY I JUST MAKE A COMMENT,
, l
26 YOUR HONOR?
27 THE COURT: SURE. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WITH THE PROSECUTION'S NOT
l
l
r 134
r 1 CALLING MR. ZEPEDA, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS GOES WITHOUT
r 2 SAYING, BUT HIS PRIOR STATEMENTS WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO
r 3
4
COME IN BECAUSE THE FOUNDATION WOULDN'T BE LAID.
DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM TRYING TO ADMIT THE STATEMENTS
I JUST
r 5
6
WITHOUT CALLING HIM AS A WITNESS.
UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY?
DOES THE COURT
r
l
7 THE COURT: I DO, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE
8 PARAMETERS MIGHT BE.
r 9 MR. TROCHA, DO YOU ANTICIPATE INTRODUCING ANY

10 OF MR. ZEPEDA'S STATEMENTS?
r 11 MR. TROCHA: NO.
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OKAY. THANK YOU.
IF THAT CHANGES, LET COUNSEL KNOW.
r 14
15
WE'LL ADDRESS IT.
THIS WOULD SEEM TO ME TO LEAD TO THE SAME
r 16
17
RESULT WITH RESPECT TO MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 10.
COURT WILL JUST DEFER RULING ON THAT UNLESS THE
THE
r 18 SITUATION CHANGES AND MR. ZEPEDA IS CALLED.
r 19
20
NEXT, I HAVE DEFENSE MOTION IN LIMINE NO. 11.
THIS IS A MOTION TO EXCLUDE PRIOR AUDIO-RECORDED
r 21
22
STATEMENTS OF MARLA QUINTANILLA. AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
MARLA IS THE SISTER OF THE DECEDENT, MR. QUINTANILLA,
r 23
24
WHO WAS KILLED IN JULY PRECEDING THIS SEPTEMBER
INCIDENT, AND I BELIEVE, IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY, IT
r 25
26
IS THE VICTIM IN OUR CASE, MOISES', FAILURE TO BEHAVE IN
A CERTAIN WAY WHEN MR. QUINTANILLA WAS ATTACKED THAT THE
r 27 PROSECUTION BELIEVES PROVIDES A MOTIVE FOR THE BEATING
28 AND KILLING OF MR. MOISES LOPEZ.
r
r
135
l
l
1 ANYWAY, I HAVE A MOTION TO EXCLUDE THE
2 STATEMENTS OF MARLA QUINTANILLA. THE PROFFER OF l
3 EXPLAIN TO ME AGAIN, PLEASE, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHAT THE
4 STATEMENT IS THAT YOU WANT TO KEEP OUT. l
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S A RECORDED STATEMENT.
5
l
6
7
IT'S ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW, 15 TO 20 MINUTES LONG, BUT THE
CRUX OF IT, AND I'LL QUOTE IT, IS AT THE END WHERE
, )
8 MS. QUINTANILLA SAYS, QUOTE, AND THE -- WITH CHUNKY
9 SAYING THAT HE'S GOING TO GET THEM LITTLE DUDES -- l
10 THE COURT: SLOWLY, PLEASE. THANK YOU.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL START OVER. l
12 QUOTE, AND THE --WITH CHUNKY SAYING THAT HE'S
13 GOING TO GET THEM LITTLE DUDES BECAUSE HE SAID THAT THEY
l
14
15
WERE GOING TO LEAVE MY BROTHER LAYING DOWN, CLOSED
QUOTE.
l
16 THE BASIS FOR THE MOTION, IF I CAN --
l
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IS THAT -- AND THE LAW l
19 IS -- I LEFT IT OUT BECAUSE IT'S STATED IN THE ZEPEDA
l
20
21
MOTION, NO. 9, WHICH WE SKIPPED OVER, AND THAT'S THE
JOHNSON CASE. AND ESSENTIALLY THE TESTIMONY OF THE , )
22 WITNESS, IN ORDER TO LAY A FOUNDATION FOR A PRIOR
23
24
INCONSISTENT STATEMENT, HAS TO BE FACTUALLY
INCONSISTENT, IS WHAT THEY USE ACTUALLY INCONSISTENT.
l
25 AND MS. QUINTANILLA, BASED ON HER PRIOR l
26 TESTIMONY AND STATEMENTS, HAS AN HONEST FAILURE TO
27 REMEMBER MAKING THIS STATEMENT. AND SO UNDER JOHNSON, l
28 THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT
l
l
r 136
r
l
1 ON HER.
r
l
2 OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A TWO-LEVEL HEARSAY
r
3 EXCEPTION. THE FIRST LEVEL IS MET ON ADMISSION OF A
4 PARTY OPPONENT, AND THEN THE "THIS" WE'RE ATTACKING IS
r 5
6
THE SECOND LEVEL, WHICH IS PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT
WITH MS. QUINTANILLA'S CURRENT TESTIMONY.
r 7
8
DURING THE INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVES, SHE WAS
UNDERGOING SEVERE EMOTIONAL DISTRESS. HER BROTHER HAD
r
l
9 BEEN SHOT AND KILLED LESS THAN 48 HOURS PRIOR, AND SHE
r 10
11
INDICATED THAT SHE HAD BEEN TAKING MEDICATION AT THE
TIME, ANTI-ANXIETY MEDICATION. IN HER TESTIMONY AT THE
r 12
13
LAST TRIAL, REFERRING BACK TO THAT, SHE INDICATED THAT
SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER MAKING THE STATEMENT. IN THE
r 14
15
DEFENSE'S MIND, THAT'S NOT ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT AS A PRIOR
INCONSISTENT STATEMENT.
r 16
17
HAD SHE SAID, "NO, I NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT,
I KNOW I DIDN'T," OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE, THEN,
r 18 YES, THE FOUNDATION IS LAID. BUT PER JOHNSON, AN HONEST
r 19
20
FORGETFULNESS IS NOT A BASIS FOR ADMITTING HER PRIOR
INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA.
THANK YOU.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA: IN TERMS OF PRIOR INCONSISTENT
STATEMENTS, I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT MARLA
r 25 TESTIFIED TO WAS AN HONEST MISRECOLLECTION. HER DIRECT
r 26
27
TESTIMONY THAT WE ELICITED PRIOR TO PLAYING THE VIDEO
AND AUDIO PORTION OF HER INTERVIEW WHICH DISCUSSED
r 28 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S STATEMENTS TO HER WERE NIGHT AND DAY.
r
137
l
l
1
2
IT WASN'T EVEN CLOSE AS TO WHAT SHE TOLD THE POLICE IN
TERMS OF THE EVENTS THAT SHE RECALLED IN COURT VERSUS
, J
3 THE EVENTS SHE RECALLED ON VIDEO.

1
4
5
HER CLAIM THAT SHE WAS ON DRUGS AT THE TIME
ALSO WASN'T APPARENT FROM THE VIDEO BECAUSE SHE WAS , l
J
,
J
6 LUCID, COHERENT, ACTIVE PHYSICALLY AND ENGAGING WITH THE
7 DETECTIVES. SO IN TERMS OF THOSE STATEMENTS, IT'S
l
8 INCONSISTENT JUST ON ITS FACE.
9 IN TERMS OF IF WE ARE GOING TO ACCEPT FOR l
10 ARGUMENT'S SAKE THAT HER RECOLLECTION IS INNOCENT AND
11 ACTUALLY SHE DOESN'T RECALL THIS, THEN THE STATEMENT l
12 STILL COMES IN UNDER PAST RECOLLECTION RECORDED, WHICH
13 WOULD BE EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 1237, BECAUSE WE HAVE A l
14 STATEMENT THAT'S RECORDED AT THE EXACT TIME IT'S BEING
1 j
15 MADE, IT CAPTURES EXACTLY WHAT SHE'S SAYING AT THE TIME,

16 AND IF SHE'S ACTUALLY FORGETTING THOSE THINGS, THIS
l
17 WOULD BE THE ACTUAL RECORDING OF THOSE STATEMENTS BEING
18 MADE. l
19 SO EITHER UNDER 1235, PRIOR INCONSISTENT
20 STATEMENT, OR 1237, PRIOR RECOLLECTION RECORDED, THESE l
21 STATEMENTS ARE COMING IN. AND I BELIEVE AFTER THE COURT
22 SEES HER ON THE STAND, THEY'LL HAVE NO PROBLEM FINDING
l
23
24
THAT HER RECOLLECTION IS NOT INNOCENT AND IS, IN FACT, A
RUSE, WHICH WOULD FALL UNDER THE ACTUAL INCONSISTENT
l
25 STATEMENT BY FEIGNING LOSS OF MEMORY. l
26 THE COURT: IT IS TRUE THAT EVASIVE ANSWERS AND
27 I DON'T REMEMBERS CAN LEAD TO ONE OF TWO RESULTS. I l
28 SHOULD BE MORE PRECISE ABOUT THE WAY I SAID THAT.
l
l
r 138
r 1 IF A PERSON HONESTLY DOESN'T REMEMBER, THEN
r 2 THAT'S NOT AN INCONSISTENT STATEMENT FOR PURPOSES OF

3 EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 1235. IF A PERSON'S DENIALS ARE
r 4 EVASIVE AND HIS I DON'T REMEMBERS ARE FOUND BY THE COURT
r 5
6
TO BE DELIBERATELY EVASIVE, THEN IT IS THE FUNCTIONAL
EQUIVALENT OF DENYING THE PRIOR STATEMENT. I CAN'T KNOW
r 7
8
THAT UNTIL I HEAR HER TESTIFY.
ALTERNATIVELY, HOWEVER, I THINK THAT MR. TROCHA
r 9
10
IS CORRECT THAT IF SHE HONESTLY DIDN'T REMEMBER, IT
COMES IN AS A PAST RECOLLECTION RECORDED. I THINK IT
r 11 WOULD BE ANOMALOUS FOR THE LAW TO KEEP OUT ESPECIALLY AN
r 12
13
ELECTRONICALLY RECORDED STATEMENT MADE AT THE TIME WHICH
APPEARS TO BE ACCURATE AND RELIABLE AND WAS MADE AT A
r 14
15
TIME BEFORE SHE HAD A MOTIVE TO CHANGE HER TESTIMONY.
IT SOUNDS TO ME AS THOUGH THE PEOPLE BELIEVE
r 16
17
THAT SHE'S ROLLED OVER SOMEWHAT OR REPUDIATED HER
EARLIER TESTIMONY, AND THAT'S A FACTUAL DETERMINATION
r 18 FOR THE COURT TO MAKE. IT SEEMS TO ME IT'S LIKELY TO
r 19
20
COME IN UNDER EITHER THEORY, BUT I NEED TO DEFER RULING
ON THAT UNTIL SHE TESTIFIES AND THE PEOPLE THEN PROPOSE
r 21
22
TO OFFER IT.
IN LIMINE MOTION NO. 12 IS THE MOTION TO ADMIT
r 23
24
THE DYING DECLARATION OF MOISES LOPEZ TO THE EFFECT THAT
HE DID NOT KNOW WHO SHOT HIM.
r 25
26 THIS?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHERE ARE YOU GOING WITH
ISN'T THAT NON-EVIDENCE?
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NON-EVIDENCE?
THE COURT: YES. WE CAN HAVE ALL KINDS OF
r 28
r
1
139
, J
1 PEOPLE COMING IN SAYING THEY DON'T KNOW WHO THE SHOOTER
2 WAS. HOW IS THAT RELEVANT TO ANYTHING? 1
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE SAW THE SHOOTER SHOOT
l
4
5
HIM, I ASSUME.
THE COURT: AFTER A 15-MINUTE MEETING? , J
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I MEAN THERE'S -- YEAH. I
7
8
MEAN, I THINK HE MAY HAVE.
RELEVANT.
I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY
l
9 THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU GIVE ME A PROFFER AS l
10 TO WHAT YOU THINK THE EVIDENCE IS GOING TO BE OF THE
11 CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THIS STATEMENT WAS MADE, l
12 UNLESS THE PEOPLE -- DO THE PEOPLE AT THIS TIME THINK
13 THIS SHOULD COME IN? l
14
15
MR. TROCHA: AT THIS TIME, NO, YOUR HONOR.
AFTER REVIEWING IT AND HOW IT CAME OUT LAST TIME, I
l
16 DON'T THINK IT SHOULD COME IN IN THIS TRIAL.
l
17 THE COURT: GO AHEAD, THEN, MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, THE DEFENDANT (SIC) l
19 WAS BEAT UP AND SHOT BY SOMEBODY, AND THE PERSON WHO
20 SHOT HIM THE WITNESSES SAY THE DEFENDANT WAS LYING l
21 DOWN AND THE PERSON WAS STANDING OVER HIM. AND THE
22 POLICE CAME TO THE AREA WHERE HE WAS LOCATED AND THEY
l
23
24
ASKED HIM SOME QUESTIONS. HE WAS ABLE TO GIVE HIS
NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE HE LIVED, HIS NAME. AND THEY ASKED
1
25 HIM WHO SHOT HIM AND HE SAID, "I DON'T KNOW." l
26 I THINK IT FITS SQUARELY WITHIN EVIDENCE CODE
27 1242, EVIDENCE OF A STATEMENT MADE BY A DYING PERSON l
28 RESPECTING THE CAUSE AND CIRCUMSTANCES OF HIS DEATH IS
l
l
r 140
r 1 NOT MADE INADMISSIBLE BY THE HEARSAY RULE IF THE
r 2 STATEMENT WAS MADE UPON HIS PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDER
r 3
4
A SENSE OF IMMEDIATELY PENDING DEATH.
SQUARELY WITHIN THE EXCEPTION.
I THINK IT'S
r 5
6
THERE IS A REASONABLE INFERENCE THAT HE DID SEE
THE PERSON WHO SHOT HIM. HE WAS ONE OF THE WITNESSES.
r 7
8
HE'S A VICTIM, BUT HE WAS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE
WITNESSES. HAD HE NOT PASSED AWAY, HE CERTAINLY WOULD
r 9 HAVE BEEN A WITNESS IN THE CASE, I WOULD PRESUME.
r 10
11
SO THE FACT THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO SHOT HIM,
AND THAT'S WHAT HE SAID, IS ADMISSIBLE. THERE IS
r 12
13
EVIDENCE THAT THE DEFENDANT AND THE VICTIM HAD BEEN
ACQUAINTED IN THE PAST. AND SO HAD HE KNOWN THAT IT WAS
r 14
15
THE DEFENDANT WHO SHOT HIM, HE WOULD HAVE IDENTIFIED
HIM.
r 16 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
r
17 MR. TROCHA, YOUR VIEWS?
18 MR. TROCHA: IN TERMS OF THE DYING DECLARATION,
r 19
20
AS I SEE IT IT'S FOR THE SITUATION WHERE THE VICTIM IS,
SAY, SHOT OR STABBED, SOMEBODY ASKED WHO DID IT AND THEY
r 21
22
SAY, "JOHN DOE DID IT," OR THEY ACTUALLY IDENTIFY
SOMEBODY THAT KILLED THEM.
r 23
24
IN THIS CASE THE QUESTION IS, AS THE COURT
POINTED OUT, AFTER A BEATING BY MULTIPLE PEOPLE, "WHO
r 25 DID THIS TO YOU," AND HIS ANSWER IS, "I DON'T KNOW," THE
r 26
27
INFERENCE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DRAW FROM THAT IS THAT IT'S
DEFINITELY NOT THE DEFENDANT. THE TWO ARE NOT -- IT'S
r 28 NOT DIRECT ON ITS FACE. I'M SEARCHING FOR THE WORD. I
r
141
l
l
1 THINK IT'S AMBIGUOUS AS TO WHAT THAT STATEMENT MEANS.
2 IF HE WERE TO COME OUT AND SAY, "TOMAS LOPEZ l
3 DID IT," ANOTHER ACTOR IN THIS CASE, THEN, YES, THAT
l
4
5
WOULD BE A DYING DECLARATION. BUT IN TERMS OF "I DON'T
KNOW WHO DID IT" AFTER THE SITUATION WE HAVE HERE I , J
6 DON'T THINK TRULY CONFORMS TO 1242.
7
8
THE COURT: WELL, WHAT ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES
UNDER WHICH HE MADE THE STATEMENT? IT WAS IN THE PARK,
l
9 AT NIGHT, AND HE HAD BEEN BEATEN BY HOW MANY PEOPLE FOR l
10 HOW LONG?
11 MR. TROCHA: THREE PEOPLE FROM ANYWHERE FROM l
12 FIVE TO 15 MINUTES, THERE WAS A SHORT BREAK, AND THERE
13 WAS A SHOOTING IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS. THE SHOOTING WAS l
14
15
DONE INSIDE THE PARK. AS IT'S LAID OUT, THERE WERE
SAN DIEGO POLICE OFFICERS IMMEDIATELY PRESENT UPON THE
l
16 SCENE. THEY HEARD THE SHOTS AND THEY DROVE INTO THE
1
17 PARK.
18 BETWEEN FOUR TO FIVE OFFICERS CONTACTED MOISES 1
19 LOPEZ, SAW VARIOUS INJURIES FROM THE BEATING AND THE
20 SHOOTING, WERE TRYING TO GET INFORMATION AS TO WHO IT 1
21 WAS OUT OF HIM. THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO GET THIS
22 INFORMATION AFTER A LENGTHY "WHO IS IT, WHO IS IT, WHO
l
23
24
IS IT," KIND OF QUESTIONS.
THEIR TESTIMONY WAS THAT HE WAS IN A LOT OF
l
25 PAIN, AND THEN THEY ASKED HIM, "WHO DID THIS," AND HE l
26 SAID, "I DON'T KNOW." AND WITHIN FIVE TO 20 MINUTES HE
27 WAS -- STOPPED BREATHING, BUT WAS PRONOUNCED DEAD AT THE l
28 HOSPITAL LATER. FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, IT COULD
l
l
r 142
r 1 BE ARGUED THAT HE DIED AT THE PARK WITHIN AT LEAST 15
r 2
3
MINUTES OF THE SHOOTING.
THE COURT: WHERE WAS HE SHOT?
F
l 4 MR. TROCHA: HE WAS SHOT MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE
r 5
6
CHEST AND LOWER TORSO. I BELIEVE ONE WAS IN HIS
WAS ALL FIVE IN THE TORSO, FROM THE STOMACH UP TO HIS
IT
r 7
8
CHEST.
THE COURT: WOULD HE HAVE BEEN FACE UP WHEN HE
r 9 WAS SHOT?
10 MR. TROCHA: THE WITNESSES STATE HE WAS ROLLING
r 11 AROUND AT THE TIME HE WAS BEING SHOT. HE WAS TRYING TO
12 AVOID THE BULLETS BUT WAS UNSUCCESSFUL IN DOING SO. THE
r 13 FATAL WOUND DID PUNCTURE HIS HEART. IT WASN'T ONE OF
r 14
15
THESE MULTIPLE TRAUMA INJURIES.
KILL SHOT.
THERE WAS A DEFINITE
r 16
17
THE COURT: WHAT ABOUT MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S --
WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S THEORY THAT
r 18 HE WOULD HAVE -- IT'S REASONABLE TO INFER HE WOULD HAVE
r 19
20
BEEN ABLE TO SEE WHO THE SHOOTER WAS AND IT'S REASONABLE
TO INFER THAT HE WOULD COMMUNICATE THAT?
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA: I BELIEVE THAT'S ABSOLUTELY
REASONABLE THAT SOMEBODY COULD SEE IT EXCEPT
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI SPENT AT LEAST THREE WEEKS IN THE LAST
TRIAL ESTABLISHING THAT NOBODY COULD SEE ANYBODY IN THE
r 25 PARK, SO
r 26
27
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
MAY I BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?
YOU DON'T NEED TO. I'M GOING TO
r 28 REVERSE MY TENTATIVE ON THAT. I'LL ALLOW THAT EVIDENCE
r
143
1
l
1 TO COME IN. THAT MOTION 12 TO ADMIT THAT EVIDENCE IS
2 GRANTED. IT SEEMS TO ME WHAT'S SAUCE FOR THE GOOSE IS l
3 SAUCE FOR THE GANDER, AND IF IT'S RELEVANT, THE FACT
4 THAT IT MAY BE WEAK OR NOT STRONG ISN'T THE CONTROLLING l
5 ISSUE, AND I AGREE. THAT MOTION IS GRANTED.
6 NOW, NO. 13 WE'VE ALREADY HANDLED. NO. 14, THE
l
7
8
DEFENSE MOVES TO PREVENT THE PROSECUTION FROM PRESENTING
CONTRADICTING THEORIES OF THE CASE. THE MOTION CITES A
l
9 CASE THAT, IF I RECALL IT CORRECTLY, IS NOT REALLY ON l
10 POINT BECAUSE THAT CASE INVOLVED TWO DEFENDANTS
11 PROSECUTED IN TWO DIFFERENT TRIALS IN WHICH THE l
12 PROSECUTION CHANGED THEORIES.
13 BUT WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN ON THIS? THAT CASE IS l
14
15
SAKARIAS, S-A-K-A-R-I-A-S.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
WHAT'S YOUR CONCERN HERE,
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, THAT THAT CASE WAS
l
17 CITED, THAT'S THE CLOSEST CASE THAT THE DEFENSE COULD
18 FIND ON POINT. BUT ESSENTIALLY THE PROSECUTION IS, I l
19 ASSUME, GOING TO ARGUE THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ IS THE SHOOTER
20 AND THAT HE ALSO CONSPIRED TO AND INTENDED TO AGREE WITH l
21 THE OTHER UNIDENTIFIED CO-CONSPIRATORS TO COMMIT A
22 KILLING, SO HE'S GUILTY ON THAT THEORY.
l
23
24
I ASSUME THEY MAY ALSO ARGUE THAT EVEN IF HE
WASN'T THE SHOOTER, HE IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO BEAT UP
l
25 THE VICTIM AND SOMEBODY ELSE SHOT THE VICTIM, AND SO HE l
26 SHOULD BE GUILTY OF MURDER BASED ON THE NATURAL AND
27 PROBABLE CONSEQUENCES DOCTRINE. l
28 AND SO IN THE DEFENSE'S MIND, THE PRINCIPLES
l
l
r 144
r 1 FROM THIS CASE ARE APPLICABLE, EVEN THOUGH THE FACTS ARE
r 2 CLEARLY DISTINGUISHABLE IN THAT, ONE, IT WAS A DEATH
r 3
4
PENALTY CASE -- THIS IS SAKARIAS -- AND, TWO, IT WAS TWO
DIFFERENT TRIALS, AND THIS IS ONE TRIAL. AND
r 5
6
THE COURT: AND TWO DIFFERENT DEFENDANTS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND TWO DIFFERENT
r 7
8
DEFENDANTS. BUT ESSENTIALLY THE PROSECUTOR'S ROLE IN
OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM IS NOT TO VEHEMENTLY CHASE AFTER
r 9 CONVICTIONS AND TO GET THEM AT ANY COST. IT'S NECESSARY
r 10
11
THAT OUR PROSECUTORS ARE IN SEARCH FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE
AND THAT THEY'RE LOOKING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT
r 12
13
HAPPENED.
IF THE PROSECUTOR'S ARGUING TWO FACTUALLY
r 14
15
CONTRADICTING THEORIES OF THE CASE, HE'S NOT SEARCHING
FOR THE TRUTH. ESSENTIALLY WHAT HE'S GOING TO BE
r 16
17
ARGUING TO THE JURY IS "MAYBE HE SHOT HIM AND MAYBE HE
DIDN'T." AND I KNOW THERE IS A JURY INSTRUCTION ON THIS
r 18 THAT SAYS THE JURORS DON'T HAVE TO AGREE ON THE THEORY
r 19
20
OF THE CASE. IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING UP?
AWARE OF THAT, YOUR HONOR, SO --
AND I'M
r 21
22
THE COURT: WELL, THAT SEEMS TO PRESUPPOSE THAT
THE PROSECUTION CAN ARGUE ALTERNATIVE LEGAL THEORIES.
r 23
24
ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THEY CAN ARGUE HE WAS EITHER THE
SHOOTER OR HE WAS AN AIDER AND ABETTOR AND THEREFORE A
r 25 CO-PRINCIPAL, OR HE WAS A CO-CONSPIRATOR AND THEREFORE
r 26
27
LIABLE UNDER THE CONSPIRACY DOCTRINE, OR HE WAS A
CO-CONSPIRATOR IN A BEATING, A NATURAL AND PROBABLE
r 28 CONSEQUENCE OF WHICH, IN THE GANG CULTURE, IS A KILLING?
r
145
l
l
1 DOESN'T THE LAW ALLOW THE PROSECUTOR TO ARGUE
2 THOSE DIFFERENT THEORIES REALIZING THAT SOME OF THE 1
3 ALLEGATIONS MAY NOT BE APPLICABLE TO ALL, ALTHOUGH I
4 GUESS IN A FIREARM/GANG CONTEXT, THE ALLEGATION WOULD l
5 BE. BUT DOESN'T THE LAW ALLOW THAT?
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT MAY, BUT IT SHOULDN'T.
l
7
8
AND SO THAT'S PROBABLY THE REASON THAT SAKARIAS IS THE
CLOSEST CASE I COULD FIND.
l
9 AND THE REASON THAT I CHOOSE TO OBJECT TO THESE l
10 THINGS IS BECAUSE, AS AN ATTORNEY, I FIND THEM ETHICALLY
11 REPREHENSIBLE IF A PROSECUTOR DOES THAT. WHILE IT MAY l
12 BE IN THE LAW, IT'S GOING TO WEAKEN THE PROSECUTION'S
13 CASE ANYWAY, BECAUSE I GET TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF THE l
14
15
JURY AND SAY, "THE PROSECUTOR DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT
HAPPENED, AND HE'S STILL ASKING YOU TO CONVICT."
l
16 THEY'RE ARGUING THAT WHETHER HE'S THE SHOOTER
1
17
18
OR NOT, HE SHOULD STILL BE CONVICTED OF THE MURDER.
IN MY MIND, THAT IS -- FOR A PROSECUTOR TO DO THAT,
AND
, )
19 THERE IS AN ETHICAL PROBLEM.

20 NOW, I KNOW THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING l
21 PROBABLY THE COURT AND THE APPELLATE COURT, MIGHT
22 DISAGREE WITH ME, BUT I HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO MY CLIENT
l
23
24
TO MAKE THE OBJECTION WHEN I FEEL IT'S NECESSARY.
THE COURT: THAT'S NOT BEING DISPUTED, AND YOU
l
25 HAVE THAT RIGHT AND YOU'RE DOING IT EXCEPTIONALLY WELL. l
26 IT SEEMS TO ME THE LAW ALLOWS THE PROSECUTOR TO
27 SAY -- MY ANALOGY -- THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO GET TO l
28 EL CAJON, FOLKS. YOU CAN TAKE 94 AND YOU CAN TAKE 8.
l
l
r 146
r 1 AND AS LONG AS WE HAVE THE DIRECTIONS FOR EACH SET FORTH
r 2 IN THE INSTRUCTIONS, THE JURY IS ENTITLED TO CONSIDER

3 ALL OF THOSE ALTERNATIVES.
r 4 IN FACT, I THINK THE LAW IS THEY DON'T EVEN
r 5
6
NEED A UNANIMITY INSTRUCTION INSOFAR AS ALTERNATIVE
LEGAL THEORIES ARE CONCERNED, EVEN IF THE ALTERNATIVE
r 7
8
LEGAL THEORIES NECESSARILY INVOLVE DIFFERENT FACTUAL
FINDINGS. BUT WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT WHEN WE GET TO
r 9
10
INSTRUCTIONS.
THE OBJECTION IS MADE. IT'S PRESERVED FOR THE
r 11 RECORD. AND I'LL ALSO DEEM IT AS A MOTION THAT ALLOWING
r 12
13
THIS WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF DUE PROCESS, BUT THE MOTION
IS DENIED.
r 14
15
NEXT, WE HAVE AS THE 15TH IN LIMINE MOTION AN
ALTERNATIVE MOTION. IT'S A MOTION EITHER TO EXCLUDE THE
r 16
17
TESTIMONY OF GLENNYS BERUMEN REGARDING STATEMENTS MADE
BY JOSE GUTIERREZ OR TO CONDUCT A HEARING PURSUANT TO
r 18
19
EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 402 TO DETERMINE THE PRELIMINARY
FACT OF PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE ON THE PART OF MR. GUTIERREZ.
r 20 COUNSEL CAN REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION, BUT I
r 21
22
BELIEVE I INDICATED THAT A 402 HEARING IS PROBABLY
APPROPRIATE ON THIS WHEN WE DISCUSSED THIS EITHER ON OR
r 23
24
OFF THE RECORD EARLIER.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY OBJECTION IF I JUST
r 25 INDICATE LET'S HOLD A 402 HEARING?
r 26
27
MR. TROCHA: NONE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO OBJECTION.
r 28 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. FOR MOTION
r
147
l
l
1 15, THE COURT DETERMINES THAT A 402 HEARING WILL BE HELD
2 OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY BEFORE THE TESTIMONY OF l
3 MS. BERUMEN REGARDING THAT HEARSAY.
4 THERE WAS A PEOPLE'S MOTION IN LIMINE WITH l
5 RESPECT TO THIRD-PARTY CULPABILITY EVIDENCE. DO I
6 CORRECTLY REMEMBER BEING TOLD THAT WE DON'T NEED TO
l
l
,
7 ADDRESS THAT AT THIS TIME?
8 MR. TROCHA: WE CAN DEFER THAT UNLESS IT COMES
9 UP LATER IN THE TRIAL.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I AGREE. WELL, YOU KNOW, I
11 THINK THE MOTION ADDRESSES SPECIFICALLY THEORIES ABOUT l
12 SOMEBODY NAMED STONEY AND SOMEBODY NAMED SPORTY. THE
13 DEFENSE IS NOT PURSUING ANY OF THOSE THEORIES. SO
l
14
15
WHAT'S ADDRESSED IN THE PAPERS IS NOT GOING TO BE AN
ISSUE.
l
16 MR. TROCHA: I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE
l
17 DEFENDANT SAYING, YOU KNOW, "I DIDN'T DO IT. IT WAS
18 SOMEONE ELSE." BUT WHEN WE'RE STARTING TO ACTUALLY NAME 1
19 NAMES OF OTHER PEOPLE, THAT'S WHERE I THINK IT WOULD BE
20 APPROPRIATE TO HOLD A MOTION ON THIRD-PARTY CULPABILITY. l
21 THE COURT: OFF THE RECORD.
22 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
l
23
24
THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD.
MATERIAL WITNESS AGUILAR IS IN CUSTODY ON THE
l
25 WARRANT PREVIOUSLY ISSUED FOR HIS ARREST. THE COURT l
26 SPOKE OFF THE RECORD WITH HIS MOTHER AND SISTER WHO WERE
27 HERE BELIEVING HE WOULD BE PRODUCED HERE TODAY. I'VE l
28 DIRECTED THAT HE BE PRODUCED AT 1:30 AND INVITED THEM TO
l
l
r 148
r 1 RETURN AT 1:30.
r 2 RETURNING TO OUR IN LIMINE MOTIONS, ANYTHING
r 3
4
FURTHER FROM EITHER COUNSEL?
MR. TROCHA: I HAD A COUPLE THINGS, YOUR HONOR.
5 MOST OF THEM WERE KIND OF HOUSEKEEPING. ONE OF THEM IS
r 6 IN TALKING TO WITNESSES OR HAVING WITNESSES TESTIFY,
r 7
8
THAT THERE BE NO MENTION THAT THERE WAS A PRIOR TRIAL,
WHAT WE CAN REFER TO AS A PRIOR HEARING.
r 9
10
AND THE SECOND BECAUSE OF NOW WE HAVE
TRANSCRIPTS FROM A PRIOR TRIAL, AND FROM TRANSCRIPTS,
r 11 POLICE REPORTS, THINGS OF THAT NATURE THAT ARE MOST OF
12 PRIOR CONSISTENT OR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS THAT WE'LL
r 13 BE USING, THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO BE REFERRING TO THESE
r 14
15
THINGS, WE REFER TO THE PAGE -- THE TRANSCRIPT PAGE AND
THE LINE NUMBER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SO EVERYBODY KNOWS
r 16
17
WE'RE ON THE SAME PAGE AND WE WOULD BE SCRAMBLING AROUND
THE ENTIRE TIME.
r 18 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU WISH TO BE

19 HEARD?
r 20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, YEAH. NORMALLY,
r 21
22
THAT'S APPROPRIATE. ONE OF THE WITNESSES, SHAWN
MONTPETIT, HE IS THE DNA EXPERT FOR THE PROSECUTION, HIS
r 23
24
OPINION HAS CHANGED SINCE THE LAST TRIAL. AND I THINK
THAT THEY RETESTED THE GLOVES AFTER THE LAST TRIAL AND
r 25
26
THEY GOT A DIFFERENT RESULT. AND IT'S THE DEFENSE'S
THEORY THAT THAT WAS BECAUSE OF QUESTIONS HE WAS ASKED
r 27 AT THE LAST TRIAL.
28 THE COURT: WHICH DIRECTION DID IT CHANGE?
r
r
149
1
l
1 MR. TROCHA: WE DID A COMPLETE RETEST OF THE
2 GLOVES. THEY CUT THEM OPEN AND SWABBED DIFFERENT AREAS, 1
3 AND MORE DNA WAS FOUND. MORE ALLELES WERE FOUND. THE
4 OPINION HASN'T CHANGED THAT IT'S STILL MR. DOMINGUEZ l
5 INVOLVED IN THIS MIXTURE, IT'S JUST THAT THERE'S MORE
6 MATERIAL THAT WE TESTED.
1
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, THEY GOT DIFFERENT
NUMBERS THE SECOND TIME, AND HE --
l
9 THE COURT: YOU MEAN PROBABILITY NUMBERS? l
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES.
11 THE COURT: AND ARE THEY FAVORABLE OR l
12 UNFAVORABLE TO THE DEFENSE? ARE THEY MORE FAVORABLE OR
l
13
14
15
LESS FAVORABLE?
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
I'D SAY MORE FOR THE PEOPLE.
MORE FOR THE PEOPLE?
,
1
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I MEAN, THAT'S ARGUABLE.

l
17 THE NUMBERS ON THEIR FACE ARE MORE FAVORABLE FOR THE
18 PEOPLE, BUT I THINK THE EVIDENCE AS A WHOLE GOT LESS 1
19 FAVORABLE. BUT, ANYWAY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I EXPECT
20 TO CROSS-EXAMINE HIM ON IS THE PROCEDURES THAT HE l
21 CHANGED IN RESPONSE TO THE LAST TRIAL.
22 FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE FIRST TWO TIMES HE TESTED
l
23
24
THE RIGHT GLOVE, HE ONLY SWABBED THE PALM.
THIRD TIME, AFTER THE FIRST TRIAL, AFTER BEING
AND IN THE
l
25 CROSS-EXAMINED BY ME, HE CHANGED THE WAY HE DID IT. HE l
26 CUT THE GLOVES OPEN AND HE SWABBED SEVERAL AREAS OF THE
27 GLOVE AND MIXED THEM ALL TOGETHER. l
28 I THINK THAT'S A RELEVANT, MATERIAL AREA FOR
l
l
r 150
r 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION, AND I'M NOT SURE -- I DON'T THINK
r 2 IT'S INAPPROPRIATE TO NOT MENTION THAT THERE WAS ALREADY
r 3
4
A TRIAL, BUT I'M NOT SURE HOW I BRING THAT TO LIGHT
EFFECTIVELY WITHOUT MENTIONING THE FACT THAT I'VE DONE
r 5
6
THIS BEFORE WITH HIM.
THE COURT: THE POINT IS THIS: AS FAR AS THE
r 7
8
JURY IS CONCERNED, IF WE MENTION ANOTHER TRIAL, THAT
COULD CUT BOTH WAYS. THEY COULD EITHER INFER THAT IT
r 9 MUST HAVE BEEN A HUNG JURY LAST TIME, AND IF THEY MAKE
r 10
11
THAT INFERENCE, THEY DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS 11 FOR GUILTY
AND ONE FOR NOT GUILTY, OR NINE AND THREE AND WHICH WAY
12 IT WENT.
r 13 THEY MIGHT INFER THAT THIS IS ANOTHER CASE
r 14
15
WHERE SOME COURT OF APPEAL REVERSED A CONVICTION ON SOME
TECHNICALITY ON SOME REALLY GUILTY GUY, AND I THINK THAT
r 16
17
IT ADVANCES THEIR INQUIRY NOT AT ALL TO KNOW THAT THERE
WAS A PRIOR TRIAL.
r 18 I THINK IT IS PERFECTLY PERMISSIBLE FOR YOU TO
r 19
20
SAY, "DO YOU REMEMBER TESTIFYING ON ANOTHER OCCASION OR
AT AN EARLIER HEARING ABOUT THIS CASE? SPECIFICALLY, DO
r 21
22
YOU REMEMBER TESTIFYING ON THE DATE OF SO-AND-SO AND AT
THAT TIME DIDN'T I ASK YOU THIS AND DIDN'T I DO THIS?"
r 23
24
AND I THINK ALL THAT IS FAIR GAME, BUT LET'S JUST REFER
TO IT AS A PRIOR HEARING OR PRIOR PROCEEDING RATHER THAN
r 25
26
A PRIOR TRIAL.
IT'S CERTAINLY NOT PERMISSIBLE TO TELL THEM
r 27 THIS IS A RETRIAL AFTER A NINE-THREE HANG. IT'S NOT
r 28 PERMISSIBLE TO TELL THEM IT'S A RETRIAL AFTER A HUNG
[
151
,
l
1 JURY AT ALL. I THINK IT'S FRAUGHT WITH PERIL FOR BOTH
2 SIDES -- FRANKLY, I THINK IT'S MOST PERILOUS FOR THE 1
3 DEFENDANT, GIVEN TODAY'S CLIMATE CERTAINLY WITH RESPECT
4 TO GANG CASES -- AND I DON'T WANT TO MENTION THAT IT WAS l
5 A PRIOR TRIAL.
6 WE CAN CALL IT A PRIOR PROCEEDING OR A PRIOR
l
7
8
HEARING OR ANOTHER OCCASION, AND IF IT COMES OUT THROUGH
SOME UNSOPHISTICATED WITNESS, WHICH I CAN EASILY FORESEE
l
9 HAPPENING, I'LL JUST TRY TO LOW-KEY IT AS BEST I CAN l
10 WITH THE JURY AND WITH A LIMITING INSTRUCTION. ONE CAN
11 EASILY FORESEE A LAY WITNESS BEING SHOWN A TRANSCRIPT, l
12 "DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY ABOUT THIS SUBJECT ON AN EARLIER
13 OCCASION?" AND THE WITNESS IN GOOD FAITH SAYING, "YOU l
14
15
MEAN AT THE LAST TRIAL?"
WE'LL JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT IF IT
l
l
16
17
18
19
HAPPENS, BUT I DON'T WANT ANY COUNSEL TO SEEK TO ELICIT
THE FACT THAT THERE WAS A PRIOR TRIAL.
TO KNOW THAT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THEY DON'T NEED
CAN I BE HEARD ON ONE THING?

,
20 I AGREE WITH THE COURT ON THIS, THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, l
21 HIGHLY SPECULATIVE AS TO HOW THAT WILL AFFECT THE JURY
22 AND IT COULD PREJUDICE EITHER SIDE. SO I AGREE WE
l
23
24
SHOULDN'T REFER TO IT AS A TRIAL AND WHATNOT.
MY FEAR, AND I THINK IT'S A LEGITIMATE ONE --
l
25 I'VE NEVER DONE A RETRIAL OF A CASE. THIS IS A FIRST l
26 FOR ME.
27 MY FEAR IS THAT WHEN WE'RE REFERRING TO l
28 TRANSCRIPTS, CALLING IT A PRIOR HEARING, AND THERE IS
l
l
r 152
r 1 OBVIOUSLY A BOX OF TRANSCRIPTS UNDER MY DESK AND THEY'RE
c 2 ALL FROM ONE SET OF A MONTH, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE AN
r 3
4
ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM THAT SOMETHING IS GOING ON THAT
WE'RE HIDING FROM THE JURY.
c 5
6
I DON'T KNOW HOW THE COURT'S DEALT WITH IT IN
THE PAST, AND MAYBE THE COURT CAN HELP BOTH COUNSEL WITH
r 7
8
THAT AS WE YOU MOVE THROUGH THIS SO THAT IT DOESN'T
BECOME A PROBLEM.
r 9 THE COURT: I DON'T KNOW THAT THE JURORS WOULD
r 10
11
BE THAT SOPHISTICATED TO PICK UP ON THAT. IF THE TWO OF
YOU WANT TO PROPOSE AN INSTRUCTION THAT'S A LITTLE BIT
r 12
13
LIKE OR WOULD BE PATTERNED AFTER THE INSTRUCTION FOR
DISMISSED COUNTS OR PARTIES THAT ARE NOT BEFORE THE
r 14
15
COURT, I WOULD BE HAPPY TO CONSIDER THAT.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CALCRIM INSTRUCTION THAT
r 16 SAYS -- IF THE COURT 1118'S SOME COUNTS -- "CERTAIN

COUNTS ARE NOT BEFORE YOU. DON'T SPECULATE AS TO WHY
r
17
18 THAT WAS. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHER PERSONS OR PARTIES
r 19
20
INVOLVED IN THE EVENT."
INSTRUCTION ANYWAY.
WE'RE PROBABLY GIVING THAT
"DON'T SPECULATE AS TO WHY THEY'RE
r 21
22
NOT ON TRIAL."
IF EITHER OF YOU WANTS TO PROPOSE AN
r 23
24
INSTRUCTION THAT SAYS THIS IS A RETRIAL, BUT YOU'RE NOT
TO SPECULATE OR DRAW ANY INFERENCES FROM THAT OR WHY
r 25 THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE CASE AND NOT HAVE IT AFFECT
r 26
27
EITHER SIDE, IT'S NOT EVIDENCE, I'M HAPPY TO CONSIDER
GIVING SUCH AN INSTRUCTION.
r 28 UNLESS WE AGREE ON THAT, LET'S HAVE AS OUR
c
153
l
l
1 WORKING RULE NO MENTION OF THE PRIOR TRIAL. MAYBE THAT
2 INSTRUCTION IS A GOOD IDEA, SO TAKE A LOOK AND DRAFT 1
3 ONE, IF YOU WANT.
4 WAS THERE ANOTHER POINT YOU WANTED TO MAKE, l
5
6
MR. TROCHA?
MR. TROCHA: YEAH. I HAVEN'T DONE A JURY IN
l
7
8
FRONT OF YOU BEFORE, SO I WAS WONDERING IF WE WERE GOING
TO USE NUMBERS AS OPPOSED TO NAMES? AND I WOULD PREFER
l
9 USING NAMES, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT THE l
10 FIRST QUESTION THE JURY ASKS AFTER THEIR NAMES HAVE BEEN
11 GIVEN, "IS THIS DEFENDANT GOING TO FIND ME OR ARE HIS l
12 FRIENDS GOING TO FIND ME?" BECAUSE DAY 1 THEY'RE GOING
13 TO KNOW IT'S A GANG CASE. SO I WOULD PREFER JUST USING
l
14
15
NUMBERS.
THE COURT: YOU WOULD PREFER USING NUMBERS FOR
l
1
,
16 THAT REASON?
17 MR. TROCHA: YES.
18 THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THAT,
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE NO OBJECTION. l
21
22
NUMBERS OR NAMES, I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS.
THE COURT: NORMALLY, I USE NAMES, AND I HAVE
l
23
24
DONE THAT AS A PRACTICE. BUT I ALSO HAVE A CASE IN THE
FOURTH DISTRICT RIGHT NOW WHICH WAS A GANG MURDER WHERE
l
25 PARTWAY THROUGH THE TRIAL THE JURORS EXPRESSED EXACTLY l
26 THAT CONCERN. AND I THINK WE DEALT WITH IT ADEQUATELY
27 DURING TRIAL. BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT MIGHT BE l
28 PREJUDICIAL TO THE DEFENDANT, I WANT TO AVOID THAT, SO
l
l
r 154
r 1 LET'S USE NUMBERS.
r 2 IT IS MY PRACTICE TO EXPLAIN TO JURORS THAT IN
r 3
4
CONNECTION WITH SEALING THEIR IDENTIFYING INFORMATION,
WE DO THAT FOR REASONS OF PERSONAL PRIVACY, NOT BECAUSE
c 5
6
WE THINK THAT YOUR SECURITY IS AT RISK. IF WE THOUGHT
YOUR SECURITY WAS AT RISK, WE WOULD TELL YOU THAT. BUT
r 7
8
WE'RE NOT TELLING YOU THAT AND DON'T INFER THAT IN THIS
CASE. SO I TRY TO ADDRESS THAT MUCH IN VOIR DIRE.
~
l 9 PEGGY, THIS WILL BE A NEW EXPERIENCE FOR US.
10 LET'S USE NUMBERS. AND WHAT I PROPOSE WE DO, INSTEAD OF
r 11 SEAT NUMBERS, BECAUSE THEN THEY MOVE FROM SEAT TO SEAT,
r 12
13
LET'S JUST USE THE LAST THREE DIGITS ON THE JUROR
IDENTIFICATION NUMBER WHEN THEY'RE BROUGHT UP.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA: WE CAN USE IT -- I'VE DONE IT WITH
JUDGE SMYTH WHERE EVERY JUROR GETS A NUMBER THAT THEY'RE
r 16
17
GIVEN, 1 THROUGH 50 OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND THAT'S JUST
THE NUMBER THAT FOLLOWS THEM AROUND.
r 18 THE COURT: WE CAN DO THAT, JUST GIVE THEM THE

19 NUMBERS OFF THE RANDOM LIST. THAT MIGHT BE EASIER THAN
r 20 USING MS. 534. GOOD IDEA.
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA: THE LAST ISSUE I HAD WAS -- WE CAN
ALSO DEFER THIS FOR THE AUTOPSY PHOTOS -- THE DEFENSE
r 23
24
HAD A BUNCH OF FAMILY-TYPE PHOTOS BEFORE THAT I WAS
GOING TO OBJECT TO AS WELL. BUT UNTIL SEEING THEM, I
r 25 DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY POINT IN DEALING WITH THOSE
r 26
27
TODAY.
THE COURT: WHY DON'T I SUGGEST THAT IF THERE
ARE PHOTOGRAPHS -- SEEMS TO BE A QUESTION OF RELEVANCE
28
r
c
155
l
l
1 AND 352. IF YOU INTEND TO INTRODUCE FAMILY OR
2 SYMPATHY-ENGENDERING PHOTOGRAPHS, SHOW THEM TO 1
3 MR. TROCHA AND LET'S MEET AND CONFER ABOUT THAT.
1
4
5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
LIMINE MOTIONS?
OKAY.
ANYTHING ELSE WITH RESPECT TO IN ,
7
8
MR. TROCHA: NO.
l
~
9 THE COURT: WE NEED TO ADDRESS MR. AGUILAR AT J
10 1:30. HE'S YOUR WITNESS AND YOUR WARRANT,
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI. l
12 MR. TROCHA, IT STRIKES ME YOU'RE WELCOME TO BE
13 HERE, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE HERE.
l
14
15
MR. TROCHA: I WOULD PREFER NOT TO.
OPINION ON HIM IS GIVEN THAT HE'S GOING TO BE OUT OF
AND MY
l
16 MEXICO OR WHENEVER ON THE DATE HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE
l
17 ORDERED BACK, IF COUNSEL NEEDS HIM TO BE ORDERED BACK
l
18
19
20
EARLIER, WE CAN TAKE HIM OUT OF ORDER.
PROBLEM.
THE COURT:
IT'S NOT A
I'LL MAKE THE DETERMINATION AS TO

, ]
21 WHETHER HE SHOULD STAY IN CUSTODY. HE MAY NEED TO STAY

22 IN CUSTODY. BUT THANK YOU FOR THAT. I'LL KEEP THAT AS
l
23
24
AN OPTION.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE NO OBJECTION OF
l
25 TAKING HIM OUT OF ORDER EXCEPT THAT HIS TESTIMONY l
26 BECOMES MORE RELEVANT ONCE SOME OF THEIR WITNESSES
27 TESTIFY. SO IF HE COMES AND TESTIFIES BEFORE THEY DO, l
28 THEN IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO THE JURORS, BECAUSE
l
l
r 156
r 1 HE'S SOMEWHAT OF AN IMPEACHMENT WITNESS FOR GLENNYS
r 2
3
BERUMEN AND ANDRES LOPEZ, AS WELL AS A PERCIPIENT
WITNESS AS TO WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE THE SHOOTING.
r 4 THE COURT: LET'S DO THIS, THEN: WE'LL HAVE
r 5
6
MR. RAUL AGUILAR PRODUCED TO THIS COURTROOM THIS
AFTERNOON AT 1:30 OR AS SOON THEREAFTER AS WE CAN GET
r 7
8
HIM HERE. I'LL MAKE THE DETERMINATION AS TO WHAT WE
HAVE TO DO TO PROTECT HIS DUE PROCESS RIGHTS.
r 9 I DON'T KNOW IF COUNSEL HAVE BEEN APPOINTED FOR
r 10
11
HIM. I'LL ASK THE CLERK TO SEE IF THEY MAKE UP ANY KIND
OF COURT FILE. MY MEMORY IS WE MAKE COURT FILES ON
12 THESE WITNESSES, AND LET'S TRY TO GET THAT HERE IF THERE
r 13 IS ONE.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA, YOU NEED NOT BE HERE, AND I WILL
ACCEPT YOUR REPRESENTATION THAT YOU'RE WILLING THAT HE
r 16
17
BE CALLED OUT OF ORDER IF THAT PROVIDES ASSISTANCE IN
RESOLVING IT THIS AFTERNOON.
r 18 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU.
r 19
20 EITHER.
THE COURT: AND MR. DOMINGUEZ NEED NOT BE HERE
THIS IS A PROCEEDING INVOLVING ONLY
r 21
22
MR. AGUILAR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BUT WE WILL BE RETURNING ON
r 23
24
MOTIONS AFTER WE'RE DONE.
THE COURT: NO. WE'RE DONE TODAY. WE'LL BE
r 25 DONE TODAY WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ.

HE'LL NEED TO BE DRESSED OUT TOMORROW.
HE CAN BE RETURNED.
IS THERE A
r
26
27 DRESS-OUT ORDER IN THE FILE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I CAN GET ONE RIGHT NOW
r 28
r
157
l
l
1 DOWNSTAIRS. I DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU COULD MAKE ONE FROM
2 THE BENCH. l
3 THE COURT: THERE HAS TO BE A WRITTEN ORDER IN
4 THE FILE. THERE'S A FORM FOR THAT. l
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I KNOW. I'LL FILL IT OUT
6 AND GIVE IT TO THE OFFICE BETWEEN 11 AND 12.
l
1
,
7 THE COURT: WHERE DOES HE GIVE THOSE, TO US?
8 THE CLERK: RIGHT HERE.
9 THE COURT: BRING IT BACK AT 1:30 IF YOU ARE
10 GOING TO BE HERE.
11 THANK YOU, BOTH. WE'LL HAVE THE JURY PANEL 1
12 SENT UP TOMORROW MORNING. WE'VE ASKED THAT THEY BE
13 PRE-SCREENED -- WE ALL KNOW THAT THAT SOMETIMES WORKS
l
14
15
AND SOMETIMES DOESN'T -- FOR THE MONTH OF APRIL.
THEY'RE NEVER HERE -- WE'VE ASKED THAT THEY BE
l
16 SENT AT 9:00. WE'LL BE LUCKY IF THEY'RE HERE AT 10:00. l
17 I'LL INVITE COUNSEL TO BE HERE AT 9:30.
18 MY PRACTICE IS TO SEAT THE FIRST 24 IN THE l
19 NUMBERS IN WHICH THEY APPEAR HERE. I'LL CONDUCT A
20 PRETTY LENGTHY VOIR DIRE, I THINK, OF THE FIRST 24 AND 1
21
22
THEN I'LL TURN IT OVER TO THE TWO OF YOU FOR VOIR DIRE
OF THOSE 24. IF AN OBVIOUS CAUSE ARISES, YOU MAY HEAR
l
23
24
ME SAY TO ONE OF YOU, "DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION IF I
EXCUSE MS. JUROR NO. 9 FOR CAUSE," BECAUSE SHE'S JUST
l
25 TOLD US THAT HER SON WAS MURDERED IN A GANG INCIDENT. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I APPRECIATE THAT, YOUR
27 HONOR, BUT I FIND, IN MY EXPERIENCE, THERE IS A LINE l
28 BETWEEN CONVENIENTLY EXCUSING PEOPLE WHO ARE OBVIOUS
1
l
r 158
r 1 CHALLENGES FOR BIAS AND NOT GIVING THE OTHER PANEL
r 2 MEMBERS AN ENGINE FOR WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GET THEM SENT
r 3
4
HOME.
THE COURT: I HAVEN'T HAD A PROBLEM WITH THAT,
r 5
6
SO WE'LL DEAL WITH IT. I'M ALERTING COUNSEL THAT I MAY
SAY TO YOU, "ANY OBJECTION IF I EXCUSE THIS PERSON FOR
r 7
8
CAUSE," OR, "IF THIS PERSON BE EXCUSED?"
FINE, SAY IT.
AND IF YOU DO,
I WON'T UNLESS I THINK IT'S REQUIRED.
r 9
10
AND IF YOU DON'T, THEN WE'LL GET THAT PERSON OUT.
r
MY HOPE IS TO HAVE 24 PEOPLE FAIRLY WELL-VETTED
11 BY ME BEFORE I TURN IT OVER TO VOIR DIRE FOR YOU. I
r 12
13
REALIZE YOU MAY UNCOVER SOME OTHER BASES FOR CAUSE THAT
HAVEN'T BEEN UNCOVERED. BUT TO THE EXTENT WE'RE WORKING
r 14
15
OFF 24 OR AS CLOSELY TO IT AS WE CAN MAKES THE PROCESS
GO MORE EXPEDITIOUSLY.
r 16
17
THEN WE'LL DEEM THE FIRST 12 IN THE BOX THE
PRESUMPTIVE JURY AND START EXERCISING PEREMPTORIES.
r 18 WE'LL HEAR CHALLENGES FOR CAUSE FIRST AND THEN EXERCISE
r 19
20
PEREMPTORIES AND THEN VOIR DIRE THE REST OF THEM AS NEED
BE. AND IF WE NEED TO HAVE ANOTHER PANEL SENT UP ON
r 21
22
MONDAY, WE'LL DO THAT AS WELL.
THANK YOU BOTH. WE'LL BE IN RECESS UNTIL
r 23
24
TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:30 ON THIS CASE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOUR INVITED BACK THIS AFTERNOON AT
r 25 1:30 WITH RESPECT TO MR. AGUILAR.
r
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL BE HERE. THANK YOU.
27 (AT 12:02 P.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN, TO
r. 28 BE RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
r.
~
.J
159
l
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 23, 2011; 1:40 PM
2 l
3 THE INTERPRETER: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
4 MARIA FLORES, STATE CERTIFIED COURT INTERPRETER. I'M A l
5 LITTLE CONFUSED, AND I WOULD HOPE PERHAPS A JUDGE CAN
6 ENLIGHTEN ME. I UNDERSTAND, I BELIEVE, THAT I AM HERE
l
7
8
TO INTERPRET FOR THE MOTHER OF THE DEFENDANT?
THE COURT: I DIDN'T KNOW. DID WE REQUESTED AN
l
9 INTERPRETER? l
10 THE CLERK: YOUR HONOR, I CALLED FOR THE
11 INTERPRETER BECAUSE THE MOTHER COULD NOT SPEAK ENGLISH, 1
12 SO I'M CALLING THEM FOR HER.
l
14
15
MR. AGUILAR, DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH, SIR?
THE DEFENDANT: YES.
l
16 THE COURT: MADAM INTERPRETER, WOULD YOU
l
17 ASSIST? BECAUSE WE MAY NEED -- IT'S AT LEAST POSSIBLE
18 WE'LL NEED TO HAVE TESTIMONY OR A STATEMENT FROM THE l
19 WITNESS'S MOTHER. THIS IS AN UNUSUAL SITUATION BECAUSE
20 MR. AGUILAR IS NOT CHARGED WITH A CRIME, BUT HE'S BEING l
21 HELD IN CUSTODY AS A MATERIAL WITNESS.
22 IT MAY BECOME THE CASE THAT WE NEED TO HEAR
l
23
24
FROM HIS MOTHER. AND, IN ANY EVENT, SINCE YOU ARE
PRESENT, I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD INTERPRET
l
25 FOR HER AS WE GO ALONG. l
26 THE INTERPRETER: OF COURSE, YOUR HONOR. THANK
27 YOU. l
28 THE COURT: LET'S FORMALLY GO ON THE RECORD.
l
l
r 160
r 1 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD AFTERNOON. THIS IS
r 2 A PROCEEDING WITH RESPECT TO RAUL AGUILAR. THE CASE TO

3 WHICH THIS PROCEEDING IS ATTACHED IS THE PEOPLE OF THE
r 4 STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, CASE
r 5
6
SCD230596.
MR. RAUL AGUILAR IS BEFORE THE COURT. HE IS
r 7
8
BEING HELD IN CUSTODY AS A MATERIAL WITNESS IN THIS
CASE. THE COURT HAS ASKED THAT COUNSEL BE PROVIDED FOR
r 9 HIM, AND MR. MEL EPLEY FROM THE PUBLIC DEFENDER'S OFFICE
10 IS HERE.
r 11 MR. EPLEY, THANK YOU AND GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 12
13 CUSTODY.
MR. AGUILAR IS ALSO BEFORE THE COURT AND IN
DEFENSE COUNSEL FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ IN THE
r 14
15
UNDERLYING CRIMINAL CASE IS MR. MATTHEW SPEREDELOZZI.
HE IS ALSO PRESENT IN COURT. THERE IS NO PROSECUTOR
r 16
17
PRESENT.
LET ME BRING PEOPLE UP TO SPEED, INCLUDING
r 18 MR. EPLEY, WHO IS STEPPING IN HERE AT THE ELEVENTH HOUR.

19 THE DOMINGUEZ CASE IS A MURDER TRIAL. IT'S A
r 20 RETRIAL. CASE WENT TO TRIAL ONCE AND WAS A HUNG JURY.
r 21
22
IT'S BACK BEFORE THIS COURT FOR A RETRIAL.
CASE. THE CHARGE IS MURDER.
IT'S A GANG
r 23
24
BOTH SIDES, I THINK, HAVE ENCOUNTERED
CONSIDERABLE FRUSTRATION IN COMPELLING THE ATTENDANCE OF
r 25
26
WITNESSES. THIS IS NOT UNUSUAL IN THIS KIND OF CASE.
WHEN THIS CASE WAS FIRST CALLED FOR TRIAL AFTER
r 27 BEING ASSIGNED TO THIS DEPARTMENT ON MARCH 8, 2011,
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, AS COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT, SOUGHT
r 28
r
161
1
l
1 BENCH WARRANTS AND WARRANTS OF ATTACHMENTS FOR A NUMBER
2 OF WITNESSES. AMONG THEM IS MR. AGUILAR. 1
3 AT THE TIME HE SOUGHT THOSE WARRANTS, THE COURT
4 ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED THE SUBPOENA WITH THE PROOF OF 1
5 SERVICE. THE COURT WAS SATISFIED AND MADE A PRIMA FACIE
6 FINDING THAT THE SUBPOENA WAS A LAWFUL COURT ORDER AND
l
7
8
HAD BEEN DULY SERVED.
THE COURT ALSO FOUND THAT MR. AGUILAR HAD NOT
l
9 APPEARED AS REQUIRED. THE COURT ISSUED A BENCH WARRANT l
10 AND WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT AND SET THE MATTER AT NO BAIL.
11 THEREAFTER, HE WAS APPARENTLY ARRESTED. HE WAS l
12 BROUGHT BEFORE DEPARTMENT 12, JUDGE SZUMOWSKI, ON
13 MARCH 17, 2011. I HAVE THE MINUTES FROM THAT PROCEEDING
l
14
15
AND I'LL BE GLAD TO SHOW ALL THESE DOCUMENTS TO YOU,
MR. EPLEY.
1
16 I'M CONCERNED THAT JUDGE SZUMOWSKI PERHAPS DID l
17 NOT APPRECIATE THE DYNAMICS, BECAUSE THOSE MINUTES
18 INDICATE MR. SPEREDELOZZI AS DEFENSE COUNSEL. WELL, HE l
19 IS DEFENSE COUNSEL FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ, BUT CERTAINLY NOT
20 FOR MR. AGUILAR. l
21 WHAT JUDGE SZUMOWSKI DID WAS SET BAIL IN THE
22 AMOUNT OF $50,000 AND ORDERED THAT MR. AGUILAR BE HELD
l
23
24
IN LIEU OF POSTING THAT BAIL AND ORDERED THAT HE BE
PRODUCED IN THIS COURTROOM, THE TRIAL COURTROOM,
l
25 YESTERDAY, MARCH 22ND. THE TRIAL WAS TRAILED UNTIL l
26 TODAY. WE'VE DONE THE IN LIMINE MOTIONS THIS MORNING.
27 WHEN I CALLED THE MATTER THIS MORNING, I l
28 CONFESSED THE NEED TO BRUSH UP ON THE RULES REGARDING
l
l
r 162
r 1 MATERIAL WITNESSES, AND I'VE DONE THAT OVER THE LUNCH
r 2 HOUR. THE SECTION IS PENAL CODE SECTION 1332.
r 3
4
BECAUSE THAT SECTION ALLOWS THE COURT TO ORDER
THE DETENTION OF A PERSON WHO'S NOT ACCUSED OF A CRIME,
5 THERE ARE PROCEDURAL SAFEGUARDS THAT HAVE TO BE
r 6 OBSERVED. ONE IS HE HAS TO HAVE COUNSEL APPOINTED FOR
r 7
8
HIM, AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE ASKED THAT THE PUBLIC DEFENDER
STEP IN. IT CAN'T BE THE SAME COUNSEL THAT OBTAINED THE
r 9
10
WARRANT.
I'M NOT SUGGESTING MR. SPEREDELOZZI DID
r 11 ANYTHING IMPROPER. I'M JUST SUGGESTING THAT I DON'T
r 12
13
THINK JUDGE SZUMOWSKI APPRECIATED WHO MR. SPEREDELOZZI
REPRESENTED.
r 14
15
THEN MR. AGUILAR HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE PERIODIC
HEARINGS EVERY 10 DAYS TO REVIEW THE CUSTODY STATUS, AND
r 16
17
HE HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE A SHOWING OF THE MATERIALITY OF
HIS TESTIMONY BE MADE AND A RIGHT TO BE ADVISED OF WHY
r 18 THE REASONS HE'S BEING DETAINED.
r 19
20
MR. EPLEY, I'M HAPPY TO DO THESE THINGS TODAY,
OR I CAN RECESS THIS UNTIL A FUTURE TIME. HE WAS FIRST
r 21
22
BEFORE THE COURT ON THE 17TH, SO HIS FIRST 10-DAY REVIEW
WOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE 27TH, WHICH IS A SUNDAY, SO IT
r 23
24
WOULD BE MONDAY OR ELSE THIS FRIDAY.
WHAT I PROPOSE TO DO, IF YOUR OFFICE CAN ACCEPT
r 25 THE APPOINTMENT, MR. EPLEY, IS TO APPOINT YOU OR YOUR
r 26
27
OFFICE TO REPRESENT THIS GENTLEMAN. I'M HAPPY TO ASK
FOR A PROFFER OF THE MATERIALITY OF HIS TESTIMONY TODAY
ALONG WITH THE REASONS THAT DEFENSE COUNSEL PUTS FORTH
r 28
r
163
l
l
1 AS TO WHY HE NEEDS TO BE DETAINED AS OPPOSED TO JUST
2 ORDERED BACK, AND IF HE NEEDS TO BE DETAINED WHAT WOULD l
3 THE AMOUNT OF BAIL BE THAT IS APPROPRIATE.
4 AND THEN, IF YOU WANT, WE CAN SET IT FOR EITHER l
5
6
TOMORROW OR FRIDAY OR MONDAY TO ACTUALLY GIVE YOU A
CHANCE TO RESPOND, OR I'LL BE GLAD TO HEAR YOUR RESPONSE
l
7
8
TODAY AND SET IT FOR 10-DAY REVIEWS THEREAFTER.
THE TRIAL IS ESTIMATED TO TAKE A MONTH. HE IS
l
9 A DEFENSE WITNESS. OTHER DEFENSE WITNESSES WHO HAVE l
10 BEEN FOUND LIKELY TO COOPERATE HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO COME
11 BACK TO COURT ON APRIL THE 5TH. OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERYBODY l
12 WILL BE TESTIFYING ON APRIL THE 5TH, BUT THAT'S OUR BEST
13 BALLPARK.
l
14
15
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS ALSO INDICATED THAT
IF MR. AGUILAR IS HELD IN CUSTODY, HE WOULD BE FLEXIBLE
l
16 AT ALLOWING HIM TO BE CALLED OUT OF ORDER. l
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI FOR THE DEFENSE HAS A CONCERN THAT IN
18 TERMS OF THE EFFECTIVENESS OF HIS TESTIMONY IT NOT BE l
19 TOO MUCH OUT OF ORDER BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS
20 HE WANTS TO ADDUCE FIRST. l
21
22 MAY HAVE.
MR. EPLEY, WHY DON'T I INVITE ANY THOUGHTS YOU
IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER SUGGESTED PROCEDURE, I'M
l
23
24
HAPPY TO HEAR IT.
MR. EPLEY: I THINK YOUR SUGGESTION MAKES
1
25 SENSE. MAYBE IF I HAVE JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES TO l
26 GATHER SOME INFORMATION FROM MR. AGUILAR, THEN WE CAN
27 PROCEED AS YOU'VE INDICATED. l
28 THE COURT: WOULD YOU LIKE THE PROFFER OF
l
l
r 164
r
r
1 MATERIALITY FIRST OR WOULD YOU LIKE A RECESS OR
2 PREFER
r 3
4
MR. EPLEY:
THE COURT:
THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE HELPFUL.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU SUBPOENAED
r 5
6
MR. AGUILAR AS A DEFENSE WITNESS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, I DID, YOUR HONOR.
r 7
8
THE COURT: WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WOULD YOU SEEK
TO ELICIT FROM HIM IN THIS TRIAL?
r 9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BASICALLY TWO THINGS. THE
r 10
11
FIRST IS IMPEACHMENT OF WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION,
ANDRES; AGAIN, LEAVING HIS LAST NAME OUT BECAUSE HE WAS
r 12
13
A MINOR. MR. AGUILAR STATED TO MY DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR
THAT ANDRES DIDN'T START HANGING AROUND WITH MOISES AND
r 14
15
THE GROUP OF YOUNG MEN WHO ARE THE MAIN SUBJECTS OF THIS
CASE UNTIL ABOUT SIX MONTHS AFTER THE SHOOTING HAPPENED.
r 16 AND THEN ANDRES ALSO TOLD MR. AGUILAR THAT THE POLICE
r 17
18
TERMINATED HIS PROBATION, AND SO THAT IS OFFERED AS
IMPEACHMENT EVIDENCE.
r 19
20
MORE IMPORTANTLY IS I GUESS THE PERCIPIENT PART
OF HIS TESTIMONY WHICH ON THE DATE IN QUESTION
r 21
22
MR. AGUILAR WAS WITH JOSUE GUTIERREZ WHO THE COURT IS
AWARE IS A PROSECUTION WITNESS, WHO ANOTHER WITNESS
r 23
24
CLAIMS WAS AT THE SHOOTING.
CAROL MARTINEZ, RONALD MARTINEZ AND ALEXIS
r 25 LOPEZ AND MOISES LOPEZ, THE VICTIM IN THIS CASE, WERE
r 26
27
ALL HAVING A CARNE ASADA, A BARBECUE, AT A PARK THAT IS
ADJACENT TO WHERE THE CRIME SCENE IS AT AROUND FIVE OR
r 28 SIX IN THE AFTERNOON. A FEW HOURS LATER THEY PACKED UP,
r
165
,
1 AND MOISES AND RAUL STAYED BEHIND AND CAROL MARTINEZ,
l
2 JOSUE GUTIERREZ AND RONALD MARTINEZ AND ALEXIS LOPEZ ALL 1
3 LEFT AND WENT TO THE QUINCEANERA, AND THEN SHORTLY
4 THEREAFTER THE SHOOTING OCCURRED. l
5 THE COURT: AT OCEAN VIEW PARK.
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AT OCEAN VIEW PARK, YES.
l
7
8 WAS.
THE COURT: WHICH IS NOT WHERE THE BARBECUE
l
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, IT'S LIKE ONE BIG PARK l
10 SEPARATED BY OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD. THE SOUTH SIDE OF IT
11 IS MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK. THE NORTH SIDE OF IT IS OCEAN l
12 VIEW PARK. THE CRIME HAPPENED AT OCEAN VIEW PARK, THE
13 NORTH PARK, AND THE CARNE ASADA WAS AT THE SOUTH PARK,
l
14
15
WHICH IS MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK.
PARKS.
THERE IS A LOT OF NAMES OF
l
16 SO, ESSENTIALLY, RAUL AGUILAR WOULD BE
l
17 CORROBORATING THE TESTIMONY OF JOSUE GUTIERREZ, CAROL
18 MARTINEZ, RONALD MARTINEZ, ALEXIS LOPEZ IN THAT THEY l
19 WERE AT A BARBECUE A FEW HOURS BEFORE THE SHOOTING, AND
20 THEN ABOUT AN HOUR BEFORE THE SHOOTING THOSE FOUR l
21 WITNESSES THAT I'VE JUST MENTIONED LEFT THE PARK TO GO
22 TO THE QUINCEANERA.
l
23
24
THE COURT: AND THAT LEAVING THE PARK AND GOING
TO THE QUINCEANERA IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE THE
l
25 PROSECUTION WILL PUT EVIDENCE ON THAT SOME OF THESE l
26 WITNESSES CLAIMED TO BE OR WERE AT THE ACTUAL SHOOTING?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE PROSECUTION IS GOING TO l
28 PUT ON JOSUE GUTIERREZ, WHO IS GOING TO BE CONSISTENT
l
l
r 166
r 1 WITH WHAT I JUST SAID, BUT THEN THEY'RE GOING TO IMPEACH

r 2 MR. GUTIERREZ WITH GLENNYS BERUMEN, WHO'S GOING TO SAY
r 3
4
MR. GUTIERREZ WAS ACTUALLY AT THE PARK AT THE TIME OF
THE SHOOTING AND HE SAW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED.
r 5
6
MR. AGUILAR SAW MR. GUTIERREZ LEAVE THE PARK
WITH THESE OTHER YOUNG PEOPLE AND GO TO THE QUINCEANERA
r 7
8
A FEW MOMENTS BEFORE THE SHOOTING WELL, MAYBE LIKE
A-- I THINK IT'S LIKE A HALF HOUR, AN HOUR BEFORE THE
r 9 SHOOTING.
r
10 THE COURT: MR. EPLEY, THIS IS COMING AT YOU IN
11 A VACUUM, I REALIZE. I'LL BE GLAD TO LET YOU READ THE
r 12
13
PEOPLE'S TRIAL BRIEF IF YOU WANT A SENSE OF THE FACTS OR
ANYTHING ELSE YOU'D LIKE TO DO. I'LL ALSO GIVE YOU A
r 14
15
CHANCE TO TALK TO MR. SPEREDELOZZI OFF THE RECORD.
LET ME ASK FOR ONE OTHER THING,
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
HELD IN CUSTODY?
WHY IS IT YOU THINK HE NEEDS TO BE
WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES YOU THINK HE
r 18 WON'T VOLUNTARILY APPEAR?
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, FIRST HE WAS
[ 20 SUBPOENAED BY MY INVESTIGATOR. I WITNESSED THAT SERVICE
r 21
22
BECAUSE I WAS THERE, AND HE WAS UNCOOPERATIVE, INDICATED
THAT HE WOULD NOT SHOW UP. I TOLD HIM THAT ONCE HE'S
r 23
24
SUBPOENAED HE HAS TO GO TO COURT OR ELSE A WARRANT WILL
BE ISSUED AND HE COULD POTENTIALLY BE ARRESTED. HE
r 25 INDICATED, PARAPHRASING, "GO AHEAD, ARREST ME THEN," OR
r 26
27
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND I SAID, "OKAY," AND THE INVESTIGATOR SERVED
r 28 THE SUBPOENA ON HIM AND LEFT. AND THEN LO AND BEHOLD,
r
167
l
l
1 THE DATE WHEN HE WAS SUBPOENAED FOR COMES ABOUT,
2 MR. AGUILAR ABSCONDED. l

3 THE COURT: DID NOT APPEAR, CERTAINLY, AND HE
4 WAS, IN FACT, ARRESTED. WHY DON'T I TAKE A RECESS, l
5
6
MR. EPLEY, INVITE YOU TO TALK TO MR. AGUILAR, INVITE YOU
TO TALK TO MR. SPEREDELOZZI; IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE
l
7
8
ANYTHING IN THE COURT FILE ON THE 187, YOU'RE WELCOME
TO.
l
9 MR. EPLEY: COULD I SEE THE TRIAL BRIEF? l
10 THE COURT: SURE. I'LL GIVE YOU THE COURT'S
11 WORKING COPY, IF YOU DON'T MIND. IT'S EASIER TO WORK l
12
13
OFF OF. THERE'S NOTHING SECRET IN THERE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S MOTIONS ARE IN THERE AS WELL.
AND
l
14
15
THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.
INTERPRETER WOULD LIKE TO ASK IF YOU WOULD BE SO KIND AS
THE
l
16 TO PROVIDE THE INTERPRETER AS WELL WITH A COPY OF THAT
l
17 BRIEF.
18 THE COURT: YES. l
19 THE INTERPRETER: THANK YOU, SIR.
20 THE COURT: ROSIE, DO WE HAVE A COPY OF THE l
21
22
PEOPLE'S TRIAL BRIEF?
THE CLERK: I HAVE THE ORIGINAL, YOUR HONOR.

l
23
24
THE COURT: MR. EPLEY, I'M HAPPY TO ALSO, AS
I'VE INDICATED, AFTER YOU'VE HAD A CHANCE TO DIGEST
l
~
25 THIS, SET ANOTHER REVIEW HEARING MONDAY OR WHENEVER. IT J
26 SHOULD BE NO LATER THAN MONDAY. IT SHOULD BE 10 DAYS

27 AFTER THE INITIAL DETENTION. l
28 AND I WOULD INDICATE THAT IT SOUNDS TO ME, JUST
l
l
r 168
r 1 HAVING HEARD IN LIMINE MOTIONS ALL MORNING ON THIS CASE,

r 2 THAT HIS TESTIMONY IS MATERIAL IN THE SENSE THAT THIS IS
r 3
4
A GANG CASE WHERE PEOPLE ARE REPUDIATING THEIR
STATEMENTS ALL OVER THE PLACE, AND A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT
r 5
6
OF THE EVIDENCE IS LIKELY TO BE INTRODUCED UNDER SECTION
1235 OF THE EVIDENCE CODE, AND IT SOUNDS LIKE
c 7
8
MR. AGUILAR WILL BE, AT LEAST IN PART, PROVIDING SOME OF
THAT EVIDENCE.
r 9 BUT THAT'S CERTAINLY JUST A TENTATIVE THOUGHT,
r 10
11
AND I'M HAPPY TO CONSIDER IT FURTHER NOW AND EVERY 10
DAYS. SO LET ME TAKE A RECESS AND GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO
12 GET YOUR THOUGHTS TOGETHER.
r 13 MR. EPLEY: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
r 14
15
(BRIEF RECESS TAKEN.)
r 16
17
THE COURT:
AND GENTLEMEN.
THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES
WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD WITH RESPECT TO
r 18 THE MATTER OF RAUL AGUILAR, A WITNESS IN PEOPLE V.
19 FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PERSONS PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED
r 20 REMAIN PRESENT.
r 21
22
MR. EPLEY, WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE, PLEASE?
MR. EPLEY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
r 23
24
YOUR HONOR, I HAD A CHANCE TO TALK TO
MR. AGUILAR, PARTICULARLY ABOUT HIS REASON FOR NOT
r 25 SHOWING UP HERE, AND HE INDICATED TO ME THAT HE HAD
r 26
27
PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED IN THE FIRST TRIAL AND COOPERATED
WITH COUNSEL AND CAME IN AND GAVE THAT TESTIMONY THAT
WAS PROFFERED HERE TODAY AND THAT HE'S WILLING TO DO SO
r 28
r
169
l
l
1 AGAIN.
2 AND AT LEAST FROM MR. AGUILAR'S POINT OF VIEW l
3 THERE WAS -- HE THOUGHT THAT THE PEOPLE -- I MEAN THE
4 DEFENSE COULD JUST USE HIS PRIOR TESTIMONY IF HE DIDN'T 1
5
6
SHOW UP AND THAT HE WASN'T REALLY CAUSING THAT BIG OF A
STIR BY NOT COMING. HE HAD ALREADY COME IN ONCE AND
l
7
8
SWORN TO TELL THE TRUTH.
HE UNDERSTANDS OBVIOUSLY NOW BY THE SITUATION
l
9 HE FINDS HIMSELF BEING IN, NAMELY, BEING IN CUSTODY l
10 AFTER NOT SHOWING UP FOR THIS VALIDLY SERVED SUBPOENA,
11 THAT HE INDEED HAS TO SHOW UP AND COOPERATE WITH THE l
12 COURT; HE DOESN'T GET TO MAKE THAT CALL.
13 SO WHAT I PROPOSE, IF THE COURT IS WILLING TO
l
14
15
DO SO, IS THAT MR. AGUILAR SURRENDER HIS PASSPORT TO
THIS COURT. HE IS A U.S. CITIZEN. HE HAS LIVED HERE IN
l
16 SAN DIEGO HIS WHOLE LIFE AT THAT ADDRESS OF 3893 l
17 SUPERIOR STREET THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY SERVED AT AND
18 CONTACTED AT AND I THINK EVENTUALLY ARRESTED AT HERE IN l
19 SAN DIEGO.
20 AND HE WILL COME BACK TO COURT. AS THE COURT l
21
22
INDICATED, I THINK SOME DEFENSE WITNESSES HAVE BEEN
DIRECTED BACK ON APRIL 5TH TO SEE WHERE THIS TRIAL
l
23
24
STANDS SO THAT THEY CAN BE FURTHER DIRECTED TO RETURN,
AND THAT HE WOULD BE WILLING TO SURRENDER HIS PASSPORT
l
25 IMMEDIATELY. AND I'D ASK THE COURT TO RELEASE HIM ON l
26 HIS PROMISE TO RETURN ON APRIL 5TH. IF HE DOESN'T SHOW
27 UP ON APRIL 5TH, HE'S WELL AWARE THAT A NEW WARRANT l
28 WOULD ISSUE, HE WOULD BE ARRESTED AND HELD UNTIL HE
l
l
r 170
r 1 TESTIFIED IN THIS MATTER AND THAT HE COULD LOSE HIS
r 2 PASSPORT TO THE COURT AT THAT POINT. SO HE'S INDICATED
r 3
4
THAT HE IS WILLING TO COME TO COURT ON APRIL 5TH,
SURRENDER HIS PASSPORT, AND HE WOULD ASK THAT YOU
r 5
6
RELEASE HIM UPON DOING SO.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU WISH TO BE HEARD?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR.
r 9 LET ME JUST POINT TO THE FACT THAT THIS WITNESS
r
10 DID TESTIFY IN THE PREVIOUS TRIAL, WAS COOPERATIVE AT
11 THAT POINT IN TIME. I'VE SPOKEN TO HIM ON SEVERAL
r 12
13
OCCASIONS, AND HIS MOM WHO IS PRESENT IN COURT TODAY,
AND IN THE PAST THEY HAVE BEEN COOPERATIVE. SO I HAVE
r 14
15
NO OBJECTION TO THE REQUEST.
THE COURT: I APPRECIATE YOUR CANDOR IN THAT
r 16 REGARD. I HAD NOT BEEN AWARE THAT HE ACTUALLY TESTIFIED
r 17
18
IN THE FIRST TRIAL.
MR. AGUILAR, ONCE YOUR PASSPORT IS HANDED TO
r 19
20
THE COURT, I'LL RELEASE YOU UNTIL YOUR TESTIMONY IS
NEEDED. I'LL ORDER YOU TO COME BACK ON APRIL THE 5TH.
r 21
22
ONCE YOUR TESTIMONY IS COMPLETED, YOUR PASSPORT WILL BE
RETURNED TO YOU.
r 23
24
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU
UNDERSTAND, AND I HOPE YOU DO SO BY NOW, THAT WE REALLY
r 25
26
CAN PUT YOU IN CUSTODY, EVEN IF YOU HAVEN'T BROKEN THE
LAW, IF YOUR TESTIMONY IS IMPORTANT ON A MAJOR CASE. DO
r 27 YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
r 28 THE WITNESS: YES.
r
171
l
l
1 THE COURT: OKAY. THE FACT THAT YOU TESTIFIED
2 ONCE BEFORE DOESN'T ANSWER IT. WE NEED YOUR TESTIMONY l
3 AGAIN BECAUSE THE JURY DIDN'T REACH A VERDICT THE FIRST
4 TIME. l
5 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
6 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. EPLEY, WHEN CAN
l
7
8
THAT PASSPORT BE HANDED TO THE COURT?
MR. EPLEY: APPARENTLY THEY'RE TALKING TO A
l
9 SISTER WHO'S HOME RIGHT NOW AT 38TH AND OCEAN VIEW AREA l
10 AND SHE'S LOOKING FOR IT. HOPEFULLY THEY WILL BE DOWN
11 HERE WITHIN THE HOUR. l
12 THE COURT: HERE IS WHAT I THINK I'M GOING TO
13 DO: IF THAT PASSPORT CAN BE BROUGHT HERE -- IS IT A
l
14
15
UNITED STATES PASSPORT?
MR. EPLEY: YES, IT IS.
l
16 THE COURT: IS HE A UNITED STATES CITIZEN?
l
17 MR. EPLEY: YES, HE IS.
18 THE COURT: THANK YOU. I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT l
19 WAS A PROPER QUESTION, AND I APOLOGIZE FOR ASKING IT IF
20 IT WAS IMPROPER. IT SEEMS RELEVANT TO THE ISSUE WE'RE 1
21 TALKING ABOUT HERE.
22 IF THAT PASSPORT CAN BE GOTTEN HERE BY 3:30
l
23
24
TODAY TO THIS COURTROOM, I'LL ORDER HIM RELEASED TODAY.
OTHERWISE, WHEN IT'S FURNISHED TO ME TOMORROW, HE
l
25 DOESN'T NEED TO BE BROUGHT TO COURT, HE WILL BE KEPT l
26 OVERNIGHT TONIGHT, AND HIS RELEASE WOULD BE EFFECTIVE AS
27 SOON AS I GET THE PASSPORT, WHICH, IF I GET IT TOMORROW, l
28 IT WILL BE TOMORROW.
l
l
r 172
r 1 WILL YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO HIS FAMILY, MR. EPLEY.
r 2
3
MR. EPLEY: I WILL, INDEED. TOMORROW, I JUST
NOTICED ON HIS WRISTBAND HERE, IS HIS 19TH BIRTHDAY.
r 4 THE COURT: MR. AGUILAR, DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER
r 5
6
COURT APPEARANCES IN ANY OTHER COURT, WARRANTS OR
ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
r 7
8
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
NO.
IF YOU DO, NOW IS THE TIME YOU TELL
r 9
10
US SO I DON'T RELEASE YOU AND YOU DON'T FIND YOURSELF
GETTING OUT BECAUSE OF A WARRANT.
[ 11 THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T.
r 12
13
THE COURT: YOU'RE ORDERED TO RETURN TO THIS
COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48, OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR
L 14
15
COURT LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY ON APRIL 5TH, 2011,
AT 9:00 A.M. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES, SIR.
IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP ON THAT DATE,
r 18 A WARRANT IS GOING TO BE OUT, WE'LL FIND YOU, AND YOU
r 19
20
WILL STAY IN CUSTODY UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER.
UNDERSTAND THAT?
DO YOU
r 21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
HOWEVER LONG THAT MIGHT BE. DO YOU
r 23
24
UNDERSTAND THAT?
THE WITNESS: YES.
r 25 THE COURT: I'M MAKING THAT ORDER RIGHT NOW,
r 26
27
BUT IT'S CONTINGENT UPON MY GETTING THAT PASSPORT.
THE BENEFIT OF THE CLERK AND THE BAILIFF, HE CAN BE
FOR
r 28 RETURNED TO CUSTODY RIGHT NOW, AND IF I GET THAT
r
173
,
l
1 PASSPORT TODAY, THE PAPERWORK WILL GO OVER THAT SAYS
2 HE'S RELEASED TODAY. OTHERWISE IT WILL BE WHEN I GET l
3 THE PASSPORT TOMORROW.
4 MR. EPLEY: JUST OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF l
5 CAUTION, JUST SO NONE OF US HAVE TO COME BACK IN CASE
6 THE PASSPORT IS NOT SURRENDERED, WHY DON'T I GET A
l
7
8
WAIVER FROM HIM ON THAT 10-DAY RULE UNTIL THE 5TH AT
9:00.
l
9 SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND, IF YOUR PASSPORT WASN'T l
10 SUBMITTED TO THE COURT, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE BACK IN
11 10 DAYS FROM WHEN THEY TOOK YOU IN, WHICH WOULD BE THE l
12 27TH. HOPEFULLY THINGS WILL WORK OUT AND YOUR PASSPORT
13 WILL BE HERE, BUT IF NOT, WILL YOU WAIVE TIME OF THAT
l
14
15
HEARING TO THE 5TH OF APRIL SO THAT I'LL BE HERE WITH
YOU AT THAT TIME?
l
16 THE WITNESS: YES.
l
17 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THAT WAIVER IS
18 ACCEPTED. l
19 THE CONDITION THAT SET BAIL IN THE AMOUNT OF
20 $50,000 IS HEREBY VACATED, AND SUBSTITUTED IN ITS PLACE l
21 IS UPON RECEIPT OF THE DEFENDANT'S PASSPORT, SURRENDER
22 THAT TO THE COURT. THANK YOU, ALL.
l
23
24 Ill
(PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED AT 2:22P.M.)
l
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
l
l
r

. ss


r WEDNESDAY, MARCH 23, 2011.
r
r
r C. SIINO
NO. 6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE
OF CALIFORNIA, HON . CHARLES G. ROGERS,
JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND
RESPONDENT , COURT OF APPEAL
NO . D060019
vs .
FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ, SUPERIOR COURT
NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND
APPELLANT .
MOTIONS

VOLUME 5
MARCH 24 , 2011
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
110 WEST A STREET , SUITE 1100

AND APPELLANT:
REPORTED BY : PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO. 6263

r

)
r OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r ______________________________
DEFENDANT. )
)
)
r MARCH 24, 2011
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r 174
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; THURS.; MARCH 24, 2011; 10:34 AM
r 2
r 3
4
{JURY VOIR DIRE COMMENCES.)
{AT 12:02 P.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN, TO
r 5
6
BE RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
Ill
r 7
8
Ill
Ill
r 9 Ill
Ill
r 10
11 Ill
r 12
13
Ill
Ill
r 14
15
Ill
Ill
r 16
17
Ill
Ill
r 18 Ill
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25 Ill
Ill
r
26
27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
175
l
l
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, THURS., MARCH 24, 2011, 1:32 PM
2 l
3 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN
4 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE PROSPECTIVE JURY:) l
5 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON. THIS IS PEOPLE OF
6 THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
l
7
8
ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
JURORS ARE PRESENT.
NO PROSPECTIVE
l
9 IT OCCURS TO ME THAT I NEGLECTED TO DO ON THE 1
10 RECORD SOMETHING THAT MR. TROCHA HAD INDICATED TO ME --
11 TO ALL OF US -- THAT HE WISHED TO ADDRESS BEFORE WE WENT l
12 ON THE RECORD. THIS HAS TO DO WITH SOME OF THE
13 ALLEGATIONS THAT ARE ON THE INFORMATION AT THIS TIME. l
14
15
MR. TROCHA.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
l
16 THE PEOPLE MOVE TO DISMISS AS TO BOTH COUNTS
l
17 THE ALLEGATION UNDER PENAL CODE SECTION 12022.5(A) AND
18 PENAL CODE SECTION 12022.53(D). l
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA INFORMED
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI AND THE COURT OF HIS INTENTION TO SEEK l
21 THAT DISMISSAL BEFORE WE WENT ON THE RECORD THIS
22 MORNING. ACTING THEREON, I DID NOT MENTION THOSE TWO
l
23
24
ALLEGATIONS WHEN I EXPLAINED THE CHARGES TO THE JURORS,
BUT I HAD ALSO NEGLECTED TO DO THIS ON THE RECORD.
1
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU WISH TO BE HEARD WITH l
26 RESPECT TO THAT MOTION?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR. NO l
28 OBJECTION.
l
l
r 176
r 1 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THAT MOTION IS GRANTED.
r 2 THOSE ALLEGATIONS ARE DISMISSED.

3 NEXT, LET'S BRING IN JUROR NO. 29 AND TALK TO
r 4 HER OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE OTHER JURORS WE'LL HAVE
r 5
6
HER SIT IN THE JURY BOX SO IT IS COMFORTABLE FOR
EVERYBODY TO SEE HER. DEPUTY TRAPP MAY WE HAVE JUROR
r 7
8
NO. 29, PLEASE.
THE BAILIFF: YES, YOUR HONOR.
r 9
10
(JURY VOIR DIRE CONTINUES.)
(JURY VOIR DIRE ADJOURNS.)
r 11 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN
r 12
13
COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE PROSPECTIVE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM.
r 14
15
COUNSEL, MY THOUGHT IS THIS: ON MONDAY WE'LL GET THE
REMAINING ONES IN NUMERICAL ORDER HERE. WE'LL CONTINUE
r 16 INDIVIDUAL VOIR DIRE, CONTINUE WITH THE CHALLENGES.

17 HOW MANY DO WE HAVE LEFT, ROUGHLY? WE ENDED
r 18 WITH 30, RIGHT? SO WE'VE GOT -- WE EXCUSED ONE,
r 19
20
MS. COOPER, SO WE HAVE ANOTHER 18 PEOPLE TO GO THROUGH.
I'M TRYING TO GET A SENSE OF WHEN WE SHOULD HAVE ANOTHER
r 21
22
PANEL SENT UP. IF I GIVE YOU 20 MINUTES APIECE WITH
THOSE 18, THAT'S 40. ANOTHER PANEL, SAY, AT 10:00?
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THAT WOULD WORK.
OKAY. WE'LL ASK THE JURY
r 25 COMMISSIONER TO SEND US ANOTHER PRE-SCREENED PANEL TO
r
26 ARRIVE HERE AT 10:00 OR AS SOON THEREAFTER AS THEY CAN.
27 ANYTHING FROM EITHER COUNSEL?
28 MR. TROCHA: A COUPLE OF THINGS. ARE WE
r
r
177
l
1 PLANNING TO GET INTO ANY EVIDENCE ON MONDAY?
l
2 THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR SENSE? l
3 MR. TROCHA: I WAS THINKING TUESDAY AT THE
4 EARLIEST. l
5 THE COURT: MY SENSE IS WE WILL NOT GET
6 EVIDENCE ON MONDAY.
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I IMAGINE WE WILL DO
l
9 OPENINGS IN THE AFTERNOON AND START EVIDENCE ON TUESDAY. l
10 THAT'S HOW I'M SEEING IT PLAY OUT IN MY MIND.
11 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE PLAN ON IT THIS WAY: l
12 IF THINGS GO ULTRA-SWIMMINGLY MONDAY MORNING AND WE
13 FINISH JURY SELECTION, WE'LL PLAN ON THE OPENING
l
14
15
STATEMENTS, BUT THE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT
HAVING THEIR WITNESSES HERE UNTIL TUESDAY.
l
16 IF WE GO TO 4:30 ON MONDAY, FINE, WE'LL STILL
l
17 START ON TUESDAY. BUT IF WE END UP BREAKING BEFORE THAT
18 TIME, I KNOW YOU ALL CAN USE THE TIME. SO WE'LL PLAN ON l
19 WITNESSES TUESDAY MORNING.
20 MR. TROCHA: ALSO, AFTER WE'RE DONE, I NEED TO l
21 HAVE FOUR WARRANTS ISSUED AND HELD FOR TODAY.
22 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU. I SHOULD ALSO
l
23
24
INDICATE THAT WHEN THE COURT AND BOTH COUNSEL MET AT
SIDEBAR WITH RESPECT TO CHALLENGES FOR CAUSE, THERE WAS
l
25 AGREEMENT BETWEEN BOTH COUNSEL THAT THE TWO JURORS THAT l
26 WERE EXCUSED, 9 AND 19, WOULD BE EXCUSED FOR US CAUSE,
27 AND THE COURT AGREED AND INDICATED IT WOULD HAVE GRANTED l
28 THE RESPECTIVE CHALLENGES AS TO THOSE BOTH. NO OTHER
l
1
r 178
r 1 CHALLENGES FOR CAUSE WERE MADE AS TO THIS BATCH.
r 2 THAT WILL CONCLUDE THE FORMAL PROCEEDINGS
r 3
4
TODAY. MR. DOMINGUEZ CAN BE RETURNED. WE'LL SEE HIM
BACK HERE ON MONDAY, AND I'LL BE GLAD TO ADDRESS YOUR
r 5
6
WITNESS ISSUES, MR. TROCHA.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. WHAT I'M ASKING FOR IS
r 7
8
FOR MARLA QUINTANILLA, EDUARDO PUENTE, MELITON PUENTE
AND JULIO RAMIREZ. OUR OFFICE HAS BEEN IN CONTACT WITH
r 9
10
ALL FOUR OF THESE PEOPLE, EXCEPT IT'S OUR OFFICE CALLING
THEM AND THEN THEY NEVER RETURN OUR CALLS. SOME HAVE
r 11 BEEN RELUCTANT, AT BEST, TO WANT TO RETURN.
r 12
13
I WAS GOING TO ASK FOR WARRANTS TO BE ISSUED
AND HELD UNTIL MONDAY MORNING AT 9:00, AND BETWEEN NOW
r 14
15
AND THEN WE WERE GOING TO ESTABLISH WHETHER OR NOT WE
ARE COMFORTABLE OR NOT RESCINDING THOSE WARRANTS OR
r 16
17
HAVING THEM ISSUED AT 9:00 ON MONDAY MORNING.
THE COURT: MARLA QUINTANILLA?
r 18 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT.

19 THE COURT: WHO ELSE?
r 20 MR. TROCHA: EDUARDO PUENTA, MELITON PUENTE,
r 21
22
AND JULIO RAMIREZ.
THE DMV INFORMATION.
I HAVE PROOFS OF SERVICE AS WELL AS
r 23
24
THE COURT:
OF SERVICE, PLEASE.
WOULD YOU APPROACH WITH THE PROOFS
r 25 AS TO EACH OF THE NAMED WITNESSES, THE COURT
r 26 FINDS A CRIMINAL SUBPOENA WAS ISSUED. IT APPEARS TO BE

27 REGULAR AND FAIR ON ITS FACE. IT COMPELLED THE
r 28 APPEARANCE OF THE WITNESS. THERE IS A PROOF OF SERVICE
r
179
l
l
1 AS TO EACH.
2 THE COURT FINDS TO A PRIMA FACIE SHOWING THAT l
3 THESE COURT ORDERS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED. BENCH WARRANTS
4 OF ARREST AND WARRANTS OF ATTACHMENT WILL ISSUE. THERE l
5 WILL BE NO BAIL SET AT THIS TIME. WE'LL HOLD THOSE
6 WARRANTS UNTIL MONDAY, MARCH 28, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. IN
l
7
8
THIS DEPARTMENT.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU.
l
9 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. l
10 ANYTHING FURTHER FROM EITHER COUNSEL?
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU l
12 SO MUCH.
13 THE COURT: THANK YOU BOTH. THIS WAS A GOOD l
14
15
PANEL. LET'S HOPE THE NEXT ONE WILL BE JUST AS GOOD.
WELL DONE, BOTH OF YOU. WE'LL BE IN RECESS.
l
16 (AT 4:24 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL
l
17 MONDAY, MARCH 28, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
18 Ill l
19 Ill
20 Ill l
21 Ill
22 Ill
l
23
24
Ill
Ill
l
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
1
l
r

. ss


r THURSDAY, MARCH 24, 2011.
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA, ) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS ,
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. D060019
vs. )
)
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT . )
) TRIAL

VOLUME 6
MARCH 29, 2011
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT :
REPORTED BY: PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO. 6263

r

)
r OF CALIFORNIA,
PLAINTIFF,
)
)
)
)
D.A. NO. ACV800
r vs.
)
)
)
r ______________________________)
DEFENDANT.
)
)
MARCH 29, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
BONNIE M. DUMANIS
r
FOR THE PEOPLE:
DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r 330 WEST BROAD~Y, SUITE 750


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF WITNESSES
PEOPLE V. DOMINGUEZ
r CASE NO. SCD230596
r MELITON PUENTE
WITNESSES
PAGE

219
237
r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 245

MAGDALENA LOPEZ
248

251
269

281
283
r JESSICA LOPEZ
r
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 285
r EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION

r PEOPLE'S 1 PHOTOBOARD WITH AERIAL VIEW OF

PARK
221
r PEOPLE'S 2 PHOTOBOARD WITH AERIAL VIEW OF

PARK
222
r
r
r
r
r 180
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 29, 2011; 9:03 AM
r 2
3 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU.
r 4 GOOD MORNING. THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r 5
6
AGAINST FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ.
COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
ALL PARTIES AND
NO PROSPECTIVE JURORS ARE PRESENT.
r 7
8
WE HAVE A COUPLE OF MATTERS TO ADDRESS BEFORE WE BRING
THE JURORS INTO THE COURTROOM.
r 9 FIRST, MR. TROCHA, YOU HAVE A WITNESS?
r 10
11
MR. TROCHA:
PRESENT HERE, YOUR HONOR.
WE DO. MARLA QUINTANILLA IS
WE'D ASK THAT SHE BE ORDERED
r 12
13
BACK TOMORROW AT 9:00.
THE COURT: ARE YOU MARLA QUINTANILLA?
r 14
15
MS. QUINTANILLA:
THE COURT:
YES, I AM.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
r 16
17
HAD I ISSUED A WARRANT FOR HER?
MR. TROCHA: I BELIEVE WE HAD. AT THIS TIME,
r 18 WE'D ASK THAT THE WARRANT BE RECALLED.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
TOMORROW AT 9:00?
YES.
r 21
22
THE COURT: MS. QUINTANILLA, I'M GOING TO ORDER
THAT YOU RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE
r 23
24
SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY,
TOMORROW, MARCH 30, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. DO YOU
r 25 UNDERSTAND?
r 26
27
MS. QUINTANILLA:
THE COURT:
YES.
A WARRANT HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR YOU
r 28 WITH NO BAIL ON IT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T SHOW UP THE LAST
r
181
l
1
1 TIME YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE HERE.
2 MS. QUINTANILLA: CAN I SAY SOMETHING? 1
4 MS. QUINTANILLA: I TALKED TO HIM LAST WEEK. I l
5
6
HAD SURGERY LAST MONDAY.
YELLING ON THE PHONE.
YESTERDAY HE CALLED ME,
THE LAST TIME I TALKED TO HIM
l
7
8
THAT I HAD THIS TRIAL, HE WAS OUTSIDE OF MY HOUSE,
YELLING, CUSSING, IN FRONT OF MY KIDS.
l
9 YESTERDAY, I RECEIVED A CALL, I DON'T EVEN KNOW 1
10 WHO IT IS, AND HE TOLD ME, CALL ME YESTERDAY, MONDAY, SO
11 YOU CAN KNOW WHAT DAY YOU HAVE TO SHOW UP. AND HE CALLS 1
12 ME AND HE'S YELLING AT ME LIKE, "WHY AREN'T YOU HERE?"
13 LIKE, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO IT IS.
l
14
15
I JUST FEEL REALLY HARASSED.
TO CALL ME AND BE NICE.
I NEED SOMEBODY
I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG,
1
16
17
AND I DON'T NEED PEOPLE CALLING AND YELLING AT ME.
REALLY STRESSED OUT.
I'M l
18 THE COURT: FOR THE RECORD, THE PERSON SHE IS l
19 REFERRING TO IS?
20 MR. TROCHA: SAL CAMPOS. l
21 THE COURT: MR. CAMPOS, THANK YOU. GOOD
22 MORNING.
l
23
24
MA'AM, HERE IS THE SITUATION.
FEEL STRESSED OUT.
I'M SORRY IF YOU
THIS IS A MURDER CASE. I NEED YOUR
l
25 TESTIMONY. I'M GOING TO HAVE YOUR TESTIMONY. IF I HAVE l
26 TO HAVE YOU IN JAIL TO HAVE IT, I'M GOING TO DO THAT.
27 BUT IF YOU'RE HERE AND YOU PROMISE ME YOU'RE GOING TO BE l
28 HERE TOMORROW, I'LL ACCEPT THAT.
l
1
r 182
r
1
r 2
MS. QUINTANILLA: I'LL BE HERE. I COULD HAVE
BEEN HERE YESTERDAY, BUT, I MEAN, HE TOLD ME TO CALL ON
r 3
4
MONDAY, THAT WAS YESTERDAY, AND HE CALLED ME AT 12:07
AND HE'S LIKE "WHY HAVEN'T YOU CALLED ME?'' AND IT'S
r 5
6
LIKE -- IT'S 12:00. LIKE, THE DAY WASN'T OVER.
WAS, LIKE, YELLING AT ME.
AND HE
THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ME
r 7
8
BEING HERE.
THE COURT: OKAY. SO WE'RE ON THE SAME PAGE,
r 9 YOU'LL BE HERE TOMORROW AT 9:00, YES?
r 10
11
MS. QUINTANILLA:
THE COURT:
YES.
THANK YOU FOR COMING HERE TODAY.
r 12
13
I'M SORRY FOR ANY MISUNDERSTANDING.
TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00.
WE'LL SEE YOU
r 14
15
MS. QUINTANILLA:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. GOOD DAY.
r 16 TWO OTHER, I THINK, HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS. WHEN

17 WE BROKE YESTERDAY, COUNSEL FOR THE PEOPLE HAD INDICATED
r 18 THAT THE WITNESS, ANDRES LOPEZ, WAS NOT UNDER THE
r 19
20
JURISDICTION OF THE COURT IN THE SENSE THAT THE PEOPLE
WERE NOT ABLE TO MAKE CONTACT WITH HIM, DESPITE EFFORTS
r 21
22
TO DO SO SINCE JANUARY, AND ALL THEIR PREVIOUS GOOD
CONTACT WITH HIM.
r 23
24
WE DISCUSSED THE NOTION THAT THE PEOPLE WOULD
BE SEEKING TO ADMIT HIS TESTIMONY FROM THE PRIOR TRIAL
r 25 AND/OR PRELIMINARY HEARING UNDER THE PRIOR TESTIMONY
r 26
27
EXCEPTION OF THE HEARSAY RULE. MR. SPEREDELOZZI CITED
THE CRITICAL NATURE OF THIS WITNESS'S TESTIMONY AND
INDICATED HE WOULD BE IN OPPOSITION TO THAT.
r 28
r
183
,
l
1
2
3
THE COURT INVITED BOTH SIDES TO FILE BRIEFS OR
POINTS AND AUTHORITIES ON IT. BOTH SIDES HAVE DONE SO.
I UNDERSTAND, HOWEVER, THAT THE SITUATION HAS CHANGED,
,
4 MR. TROCHA, AND IT APPEARS THAT YOU ALL HAVE l
5
6
REESTABLISHED CONTACT WITH THIS WITNESS.
MR. TROCHA: THAT IS CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. WE'D
l
7
8
ASK THAT OUR MOTION BE DEFERRED IF IT WERE TO BECOME
RELEVANT AT ANOTHER TIME.
l
9 THE COURT: I THANK BOTH COUNSEL FOR THE BRIEFS l
10 THAT THEY'VE FILED IN THIS MATTER. THEY WILL BE DEEMED
11 FILED. NO NEED TO HEAR THE MOTION UNTIL SUCH TIME MAY l
12 OCCUR THAT HE, IN FACT, ISN'T HERE FOR WHATEVER REASON.
13 I MAKE NO FINDINGS AT THIS TIME REGARDING DUE
l
14
15
DILIGENCE OR ANY OF THOSE ISSUES.
FOR ANY MOTION.
THAT WILL BE DEFERRED
l
16 NEXT, WHEN WE BROKE LAST NIGHT, ONE OF THE
1
17 PROSPECTIVE JURORS INFORMED THE BAILIFF THAT HE WOULD
18 ONLY GET PAID FOR TWO WEEKS. I BELIEVE WE IDENTIFIED l
19 THIS PERSON AS JUROR NUMBER WHAT, MADAM CLERK?
20 THE CLERK: 83. 1
21
22
THE COURT: 83, I BELIEVE. HE WAS THE
GENTLEMAN IN THE TAN SUIT IN THE FRONT ROW ON THE LEFT
l
23
24
AS WE LOOK BACK IN THE COURTROOM. I'LL ASK THAT THE
BAILIFF CALL HIS NUMBER AND BRING HIM IN, AND WE'LL
l
25 VERIFY THAT THAT'S THE CASE, AND IF COUNSEL HAVE NO l
26 OBJECTION, WE'LL EXCUSE HIM. ANY OBJECTION?
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO.
l
1
r 184

r 2 DEPUTY TRAPP, MAY WE HAVE JUROR 83, PLEASE.
3 THE BAILIFF: YES, YOUR HONOR.
r 4 (JUROR NO. 83 ENTERS THE COURTROOM.)
r 5
6
THE COURT: SIR, GOOD MORNING.
I'M GIVEN TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE CHECKED
r 7
8
WITH YOUR EMPLOYMENT ABOUT HOW LONG YOU WOULD GET PAID
FOR BEING IN TRIAL.
r 9 PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 83: YES, YOUR HONOR.

10 THE COURT: AND IT'S WHAT?
r 11 PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 83: 10 DAYS, YOUR
r 12
13
HONOR.
THE COURT: IT SEEMS A BIT THIN TO EXPECT FOR
r 14
15
YOU TO SERVE FOR ANOTHER 10 DAYS WITHOUT GETTING PAID,
SO I'M GOING TO EXCUSE YOU FROM FURTHER SERVICE IN THIS
r 16
17
CASE. I'LL ASK THAT YOU CHECK OUT THROUGH THE JURY
COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE.
r 18 BE SURE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS YOUR
19 SECOND DAY HERE SO THEY DON'T RECYCLE YOU TO ANOTHER
r 20 PANEL. FEEL FREE TO TELL THEM THE JUDGE SAID YOUR
r 21
22
SERVICE IS OVER THIS TIME AROUND BECAUSE YOU WERE HERE
ALL DAY YESTERDAY. THANK YOU FOR SERVING, AND GOOD LUCK
r 23
24
TO YOU, SIR.
HARDSHIP.
WE'LL SHOW JUROR 83 EXCUSED FOR CAUSE AND
r 25 ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE WE SEAT THE JURORS AND
r 26
27
BEGIN WITH THE PEREMPTORIES?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR, JUST
r 28 BRIEFLY. THE DEFENSE HAS BEEN SEEKING TO SUBPOENA TWO
r
185
1
l
1 WITNESSES, CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ AND ISMAEL ACEVES,
2 UNSUCCESSFULLY. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE ANOTHER ROUND AT IT l
3 THIS WEEK, BUT I JUST WANTED TO ALERT THE COURT AND
4 MR. TROCHA THAT IF WE CAN'T SECURE THEIR PRESENCE IN l
5
6
COURT -- IF WE CAN'T GET A SUBPOENA ON THEM OR FIND A
WAY TO GET THEM THERE, WE'LL BE SEEKING TO INTRODUCE
l
7
8
THEIR FORMER TESTIMONY.
AND AUTHORITIES ON MONDAY.
AND I'LL BE SUBMITTING POINTS
l
9 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. AND THIS IS l
10 MR. ACEVES?
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ISMAEL ACEVES AND CHRISTIAN l
12 MARTINEZ.
13 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'LL BE ON NOTICE OF
l
14
15
THAT, AND WE CAN HAVE THE HEARING IF IT BECOMES, IN
FACT, NECESSARY. THANK YOU FOR THAT NOTIFICATION.
1
16 I'LL GET OFF THE BENCH, INVITE THE CLERK AND l
17 THE BAILIFF TO DO THE COMPLICATED JOB OF SEATING OUR 12
18 FROM THE FIRST PANEL IN THE BOX, SEATING THE JURORS THAT l
19 WE VOIR DIRED FROM THE SECOND PANEL IN NUMERICAL ORDER,
20 AND THEN THE REST OF THE JURORS WHEREVER, AND WE'LL l
21
22
RESUME WITH PEREMPTORIES.
DO I CORRECTLY RECALL WE WOULD BE TO THE
l
23
24
DEFENSE NINTH?
MR. TROCHA: YES.
l
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S WHAT MY RECORDS l
26 INDICATE, YOUR HONOR.
27 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. I'LL GET l
28 OFF THE BENCH AND WE'LL HAVE THE JURORS BROUGHT IN.
l
,
r 186
r
r 1
2
THANK YOU.
r 3
4 CAUSE.)
(THE JURY WAS SWORN BY THE CLERK TO TRY THE
r 5
6
THE COURT:
YOU MAY BE SEATED.
THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
r 7
8 REJOICE.
WE'RE NOT DONE YET, SO DO NOT EITHER DESPAIR OR
WE HAVE SOME MORE JURY SELECTING TO DO, BUT
r 9 FIRST I'M GOING TO PUT THAT SIDEBAR RULE IN EFFECT FOR
r 10
11
JUST A MOMENT AND SEE BOTH COUNSEL AT SIDEBAR, IF I MAY.
SIDEBAR RULE IS IN EFFECT, FOLKS. FEEL FREE TO
12 STAND, STRETCH, TALK. JUST DON'T TALK ABOUT THE CASE.
r 13 WE'RE OFF THE RECORD.
r 14
15
(SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.)
r 16
17
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, THANK YOU.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S PUT THAT SIDEBAR
r 18 RULE IN EFFECT FOR A MOMENT. I'LL MEET WITH BOTH
r 19
20
COUNSEL AT SIDEBAR. OFF THE RECORD.
r 21
22
(JURY VOIR DIRE CONCLUDES.)
r 23 (THE ALTERNATE JURORS WERE SWORN BY THE CLERK

24 TO TRY THE CAUSE.)
r 25 THE COURT: THANK YOU, FOLKS. THE WAY IT WORKS
26 IS THIS: I'VE CALLED YOU ALTERNATE 1, 2, 3 AND 4
r 27 BECAUSE OF THE ORDER IN WHICH YOU'RE SELECTED. THE LAW
r 28 SAYS THAT IF IT BECOMES NECESSARY TO SUBSTITUTE A JUROR
r
187
,
l
1
2
3
THAT WE WILL SELECT BY LOT FROM YOU FOUR, AND THAT'S HOW
THE ORDER IS ACTUALLY DECIDED WHEN THE NEED TO
SUBSTITUTE ONE OF YOU COMES INTO PLAY.
,
4 THIS IS IMPORTANT WORK. I ASK AND KNOW THAT l
5
6
YOU WILL GIVE THIS CASE THE VERY SAME ATTENTION THAT YOU
WOULD IF YOU ANTICIPATED DELIBERATING ON IT FROM THE
l
7
8
FIRST MOMENT THE DELIBERATIONS BEGIN. I'M GOING TO ASK
THAT YOU REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE
l
l
9
10
11
AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON ANY SUBJECT
CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL. PLEASE DON'T FORM OR EXPRESS
ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS FINALLY SUBMITTED
,
12
13
TO YOU FOR DECISION.
WHEN WE RECONVENE, WE'LL HAVE YOU IN THE FIRST
1
14
15
ROW, FIRST SEAT, THE LAST TWO SEATS IN THE SECOND ROW,
AND WE'LL HAVE A SEAT DOWN HERE FOR AN ALTERNATE AS
l
16 WELL. IF ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS OR l
17 COMFORT REQUIREMENTS SO THAT YOU WOULD BE MORE
18 COMFORTABLE IN THE SEAT DOWN BELOW, PLEASE LET US KNOW A l
19 THAT AND WE WILL ACCOMMODATE THAT.
20 I'LL INVITE YOU TO TAKE A RECESS AND PLAN ON l
21 COMING BACK TO THIS COURTROOM AT 11:00 THIS MORNING.
l
22
23
24
THANK YOU ALL.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN
COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
,
25 THE COURT: THANK YOU. ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT l
26 THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE
27 COURTROOM. WELL DONE. THIS IS A DIFFICULT AND l
28 CHALLENGING STAGE OF THE PROCESS, AND TIME WILL TELL,
l
l
r 188
r 1 BUT MY SENSE IS WE HAVE SOME CONSCIENTIOUS FOLKS WHO ARE

r 2 A GOOD JURY.
r 3
4
WHAT I WANTED TO ADDRESS RIGHT NOW BEFORE WE
TAKE A QUICK RECESS IS THIS: WHAT, IF ANY, ISSUES IS IT
r 5
6
YOUR SENSE, COUNSEL, BOTH OF YOU, THAT WE PRE-INSTRUCT
ON? I NORMALLY DON'T READ THE 100 SERIES OF CALCRIMS.
r 7
8
I DO EXPLAIN TO THEM ABOUT TAKING NOTES, THAT THEY'LL
HAVE NOTEBOOKS AND THAT SORT OF THING.
r 9 IN A CASE LIKE THIS, IF THERE ARE PARTICULAR
r 10
11
SUBSTANTIVE AREAS THAT WE SHOULD INSTRUCT ON, I'M HAPPY
TO CONSIDER THAT, OR, FOR THAT MATTER, EVIDENTIARY
r 12
13
RULES. IT MIGHT BE PROPITIOUS TO TALK TO THEM TO GIVE
THEM THE DEFINITION OF A CRIMINAL STREET GANG. I DON'T
r 14
15
KNOW. EITHER OF YOU WISH TO BE HEARD?
MR. TROCHA: I THINK WE'VE HAD ENOUGH QUESTIONS
r 16 ABOUT IT THAT WE MAY WANT TO GIVE -- I THINK IT'S 1400
r 17
18
OR 1401 FOR A CRIMINAL STREET GANG.
THE COURT: IT IS ONE OF THOSE TWO
r 19
20
INSTRUCTIONS. LET'S SEE. IT IS 1401, IT APPEARS.
THIS IS THE INSTRUCTION THAT BEGINS WITH THE
r 21
22
LANGUAGE, "IF YOU FIND THE DEFENDANT GUILTY OF THE CRIME
CHARGED" -- ACTUALLY, IN EITHER COUNT, CORRECT?
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
YES.
YOUR INSTRUCTION FROM THE LAST
[ 25 TRIAL SAYS COUNT 1.
r 26
27
"YOU MUST THEN DECIDE WHETHER THE PEOPLE
HAVE PROVED THE ADDITIONAL ALLEGATION OF THE GANG
r 28 ALLEGATION."
r
189
,
l
1 ANY OBJECTION, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, IF I READ THAT
2 TO THE JURORS INITIALLY WITH THE UNDERSTANDING IT WILL l
3 BE READ TO THEM AGAIN LATER?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I JUST DON'T SEE IT AS l
5
6
NECESSARY. IT MAY SERVE TO CONFUSE THEM. IT SOUNDS
LIKE HE'S ALREADY BEEN -- IF THEY FIND HIM GUILTY, IT
l
7
8
SOUNDS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY DETERMINED THAT ISSUE.
YOU KNOW, "ASSUMING THAT ISSUE OF GUILT HAS ALREADY BEEN
l
9 DETERMINED, HERE IS THE INSTRUCTION YOU'LL GET." I l
10 THINK IT'S CONFUSING.
11 THE COURT: THE CONCERN THAT I GET IS WHEN THEY 1
12 HEAR EVIDENCE FROM A GANG EXPERT ABOUT PREDICATE ACTS
13 AND PATTERN OF GANG ACTIVITY AND PRIMARY ACTIVITIES AND
l
14
15
SO FORTH, THEY'RE GOING TO BE WONDERING, "WHY AM I
HEARING ALL THIS?" AND I GUESS I THINK IT'S HELPFUL TO
l
16 GIVE THEM A STRUCTURE WITHIN WHICH TO VIEW THAT l
17 EVIDENCE. I THINK I WILL GIVE 1401 WHEN WE RECONVENE.
18 ARE THERE ANY OTHER INSTRUCTIONS THAT EITHER l
19 COUNSEL WOULD REQUEST THE COURT GIVE?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, JUST IF THERE l
21
22
COULD BE A LIMITING INSTRUCTION, IF YOU DO GIVE 1401, IN
THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- I MEAN, I THINK IT'S KIND OF
l
23
24
BUILT INTO IT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME I STILL HAVE THAT
FEAR THAT IT WILL BE CONFUSING.
l
25 MR. TROCHA: THERE IS 1403, WHICH IS THE l
26 LIMITED PURPOSE OF EVIDENCE OF GANG ACTIVITY.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THEN, YEAH, I THINK THAT l
28 WOULD BE HELPFUL IF THAT WAS READ IN, TOO.
l
l
r 190
r
r 1
2 1403.
THE COURT: I AGREE. I'LL GIVE 1401 AND
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, YOU'RE ALSO
PLANNING ON READING IT, BUT I THINK IT'S IN THE 100
r 5
6
SERIES -- I'M PULLING UP MY INSTRUCTIONS
INSTRUCTION ON EVALUATING WITNESS CREDIBILITY --
BUT IT'S THE
r 7
8
EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY. I THINK THAT WILL BE HELPFUL.
EVALUATING THE CREDIBILITY OF EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY, I
r 9 THINK THAT WILL BE HELPFUL FOR THE JURY TO HEAR.

10 MR. TROCHA: 315, YOUR HONOR.
r 11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 315. THANK YOU.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
ANY OBJECTION BY THE PEOPLE?
NONE.
r 14
15
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'LL READ 315 AS WELL.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ANYTHING FURTHER?
r 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO.

17 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, ANYTHING FURTHER?
r 18 MR. TROCHA: NO. THANK YOU.
r 19
20
THE COURT: WHEN WE HAVE THE JURORS IN HERE AT
11:00 OR SOON THEREAFTER AS WE CAN, I'LL GIVE THEM SOME
r 21
22
PRE-INSTRUCTION ALONG THE LINES OF WHAT WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT. I WILL TELL THEM ABOUT NOTEBOOKS AND NOTE-TAKING
r 23
24
AND THAT SORT OF THING.
ARE THE PEOPLE PREPARED TO MAKE AN OPENING
r 25
26
STATEMENT AFTER THAT?
MR. TROCHA: YES.
r 27 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU INTEND TO
r 28 MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT UP FRONT OR RESERVE IT?
[
191
1
l
1
2
3
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
STATEMENT UP FRONT.
THE COURT:
I'M GOING TO MAKE AN OPENING
WE'LL GET AS MUCH OF THAT DONE AS

,
4 WE CAN THIS MORNING AND HOPEFULLY START TAKING TESTIMONY l
5
6
THIS AFTERNOON.
LET'S BE IN RECESS UNTIL 11:00.
1
7 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU.
l
8 (MID-MORNING RECESS TAKEN.)
1
9
10
11
COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND
,
12
13
GOOD MORNING. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL PARTIES
AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE
1
14
15
PRESENT. FOR THE RECORD, WHENEVER I STATE THAT ALL
MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT, I INCLUDE THE FOUR
l
16 ALTERNATE JURORS, UNLESS I SPECIFICALLY STATE OTHERWISE. l
17 THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FOR YOUR
18 CONTINUED SERVICE IN THIS CASE. WE'RE ABOUT TO GET 1
19 UNDERWAY WITH THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIAL. WE'RE GOING
20 TO DO THAT IN THE FOLLOWING FASHION: I'M GOING TO TALK l
21
22
ABOUT A COUPLE OF THE LEGAL RULES AND PRINCIPLES THAT
YOU'LL RECEIVE AGAIN IN FORMAL JURY INSTRUCTIONS AT THE
l
l
,
23 END OF THE CASE.
24 I'VE MET WITH BOTH COUNSEL, AND WE'RE IN
25 AGREEMENT THAT WITH RESPECT TO SOME OF THESE TOPICS, IT
26 MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA FOR ME TO GIVE YOU A PREVIEW OF IT.
27 THEN I'M GOING TO INVITE AN OPENING STATEMENT FROM EACH l
28 COUNSEL.
l
1
r 192
[
1
r
THE OPENING STATEMENT IS NOT EVIDENCE. THE
2 ONLY EVIDENCE WILL COME TO YOU FROM THE WITNESSES AND
r 3
4
FROM THE TESTIMONY AND THE EXHIBITS. HOWEVER, EACH
COUNSEL IS ENTITLED TO GIVE YOU HIS VIEW OF WHAT HE
r 5
6
THINKS THE EVIDENCE IS GOING TO SHOW IN THIS CASE.
THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. I
[ 7 THINK BOTH COUNSEL ARE GOING TO BE TELLING YOU THAT SOME

8 OF THE WITNESSES HAVE SAID A NUMBER OF THINGS, NOT
r 9 ALWAYS CONSISTENTLY, THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE
r 10
11
INVESTIGATION AND THE PROCEEDINGS UP TO THIS POINT.
ALSO, IT'S NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE -- IN FACT, IT'S
r 12
13
RARELY POSSIBLE -- TO BRING WITNESSES IN IN THE PRECISE
CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM
r 14
15
THEM. IN A PERFECT WORLD, COUNSEL COULD PRESENT THEIR
EVIDENCE CHRONOLOGICALLY AS IT UNFOLDED AND WITH THE
r 16 APPROPRIATE WITNESSES.
DUE TO WITNESS SCHEDULING AND OTHER ISSUES, YOU
r
17
18 MAY HEAR A WITNESS THAT TESTIFIES FIRST ABOUT SOMETHING
r 19
20
THAT'S FAIRLY FAR INTO THE TRIAL. SO YOU NEED TO KNOW
WHAT EACH COUNSEL BELIEVES THE FACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES ARE
L 21
22
GOING TO BE.
I THINK IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING, BUT I'LL SAY IT
r 23
24
ANYWAY, THAT WE ASK THAT YOU BASE YOUR DECISION ON THE
FACTS JUST ON THE EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE. PLEASE DON'T
r 25 BE TEMPTED TO DO ANY INVESTIGATION ON YOUR OWN. DON'T
26 TAKE IT UPON YOURSELVES TO DRIVE BY OCEAN VIEW PARK.

r 27 DON'T DO GOOGLE EARTH OR LOOK AT THE MAPS ON THE
r 28 SUBJECT.
[
193
,
l
1
2
3
TO THE EXTENT THAT LAYOUTS AND DIAGRAMS AND
STREETS AND LOCATIONS ARE IMPORTANT, COUNSEL WILL HAVE
EXHIBITS ON THAT, AND WE ASK THAT YOU RELY ON THOSE
,
4 EXHIBITS.
l
5
6 NOTES.
YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN NOTEBOOKS. YOU MAY TAKE
MAY I ASK THAT EACH ONE OF YOU TAKE A MOMENT
1
7 RIGHT NOW TO RIFFLE THROUGH THE BOOKS AND MAKE SURE NO
l
8 JUROR FROM A PRIOR TRIAL MADE SOME KIND OF NOTE,
9 SHOPPING LIST OR WHATEVER ON THE LAST PAGE OR ONE OF THE 1
10 BACK PAGES THAT DIDN'T GET TORN OUT. THANK YOU. THAT
11 DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE A PROBLEM. 1
12 IN THAT CASE, A WORD ABOUT THE NOTE-TAKING.
13 YOU ARE INVITED TO TAKE NOTES. IT IS YOUR RIGHT, BUT
l
14
15
NOT YOUR DUTY. IF YOU DO TAKE NOTES, THEY ARE FOR YOUR
OWN PERSONAL USE IN REFRESHING YOUR RECOLLECTION DURING
1
16 THE JURY DELIBERATIONS AS TO WHAT THE WITNESSES SAID. 1
17 WE'RE GOING TO ASK THAT THE NOTEBOOKS REMAIN IN
18 THE COURTROOM AT ALL TIMES. DON'T TAKE THEM WITH YOU AT 1
19 THE END OF THE DAY OR ON RECESSES. THEY WILL BE SENT
20 INTO THE JURY ROOM WITH YOU. AT THE END OF THE CASE,
l
21
22
THE NOTES ARE COLLECTED AND DESTROYED.
THE ONE THING I WANT TO FLAG FOR YOU IS THIS:
l
23
24
WHILE YOU MAY TAKE NOTES, AND YOU ARE INVITED TO TAKE
NOTES, PLEASE DON'T LET YOUR NOTE-TAKING DETRACT FROM
1
25 YOUR ATTENTION TO THE WITNESSES AS THEY TESTIFY. WHAT 1
26 THEY SAY IS IMPORTANT, BUT HOW THEY SAY IT IS ALSO
27 IMPORTANT. l
28 YOU ARE THE JUDGES OF THE BELIEVABILITY OF THE
l
1
r 194
r
r 1
2
WITNESSES. THIS MEANS YOU JUDGE THEIR CREDIBILITY AND
THEIR DEMEANOR AND THE SERIOUSNESS WITH WHICH THEY
r 3
4
UNDERTAKE THE CASE.
I THINK WE ALL KNOW THAT WE CAN SAY THE SAME
r 5
6
PHRASE WITH DIFFERENT INFLECTIONS AND IT MEANS AN
ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING. SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU
r 7
8
WATCH THE WITNESSES AND DON'T LET THE NOTE-TAKING
DETRACT FROM THAT.
r 9 IF YOU FIND THAT IT'S NECESSARY DURING YOUR
r 10
11
DELIBERATIONS, YOU MAY ASK THAT THE COURT REPORTER READ
BACK TESTIMONY TO YOU. WE CAN'T HAVE THE COURT REPORTER
12 PREPARE A TRANSCRIPT AND SEND THAT BACK TO YOU. THAT'S
[ 13 NOT APPROPRIATE. IT SOMETIMES HAPPENS, THOUGH, THAT
r 14
15
JURORS JUST NEED TO HAVE A TESTIMONY REREAD.
WHEN THAT HAPPENS, THE COURT REPORTER WILL READ
r 16
17
THE ENTIRE DIRECT AND CROSS OF THAT WITNESS IN A
QUESTION-AND-ANSWER FORMAT: QUESTION, ANSWER, QUESTION,
r 18 ANSWER.
r 19
20
WE ASK THAT YOU DO YOUR BEST TO PAY SUFFICIENT
ATTENTION THAT THAT DOESN'T BECOME NECESSARY, BUT IT IS
r 21
22
A RESOURCE THAT'S AVAILABLE FOR YOU. IN MAKING THAT
LAST STATEMENT, WHAT I MEAN TO EMPHASIZE IS THIS:
r 23 PLEASE DON'T THINK YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION

24
r
DURING THE TRIAL BECAUSE YOU CAN ALWAYS HAVE IT READ
25 BACK. PLEASE GIVE US AND THE WITNESSES YOUR BEST
26 ATTENTION THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL.
r 27 WHERE THERE IS A CONFLICT IN THE EVIDENCE,
r 28 BECAUSE YOU'RE THE JUDGES OF THE FACTS, YOU DECIDE WHAT
[
195
1
l
1 EVIDENCE, IF ANY, TO BELIEVE. WHEN YOU DO THAT, DON'T
2 JUST COUNT THE NUMBER OF WITNESSES WHO AGREE OR DISAGREE 1
3 ON A SINGLE POINT. WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU IS WHETHER
4 THE TESTIMONY OR THE EVIDENCE CONVINCES YOU, AND THAT'S l
5
6
THE ULTIMATE TEST. THE NUMBER OF WITNESSES IS
IMPORTANT, BUT NOT CONTROLLING, WHO AGREE OR DISAGREE ON
1
~
7 A GIVEN POINT. I
I
8 IT MAY HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL THAT I ORDER

9 THAT SOME TESTIMONY IS RECEIVED FOR A LIMITED PURPOSE l
10 ONLY. IF WE GET TO A SITUATION LIKE THAT, IF THAT
11 SITUATION ARISES, I'LL TELL YOU. I'LL SAY, "LADIES AND l
12 GENTLEMEN, YOU MAY CONSIDER THIS EVIDENCE ONLY FOR THIS
13 PURPOSE AND NOT FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE." IF I GIVE YOU
l
14
15
ONE OF THOSE INSTRUCTIONS, OF COURSE, WE EXPECT YOU TO
FOLLOW IT.
1
16 AS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT DURING VOIR DIRE, AND 1
17 AS YOU KNOW, YOU ARE THE JUDGES OF THE BELIEVABILITY OF
18 THE WITNESSES. COUNSEL AND I HAVE AGREED THAT IT WOULD 1
19 BE HELPFUL TO GIVE ONE OF THE INSTRUCTIONS TO YOU.
20 AS WITH ALL WITNESSES YOU CONSIDER THE THINGS l
21
22
THAT WE TALKED ABOUT IN VOIR DIRE:
WITNESS SEE IT?
HOW WELL COULD THE
HOW WELL COULD THE WITNESS HEAR IT?
l
23 WHAT IS THE WITNESS'S MEMORY LIKE? HOW WELL COULD HE OR
l
24 SHE REMEMBER OR RELATE IT?
25 WHAT WAS HIS OR HER ATTITUDE OR DEMEANOR WHILE 1
26 ON THE STAND? WAS THE PERSON TAKING THE CASE SERIOUSLY
27 OR NOT? DOES THE PERSON HAVE A BIAS OR INTEREST OR SOME l
28 MOTIVE TO SHADE HIS OR HER TESTIMONY OR FAVOR ONE SIDE
l
l
r 196
r
r 1
2
OR THE OTHER? ALL OF THOSE COMMONSENSE FACTORS WE'LL
GIVE YOU IN AN INSTRUCTION AT THE END OF THE CASE.
r 3
4
EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION IS GOING TO BE
IMPORTANT IN THIS CASE, AND I'D LIKE TO TAKE JUST A
r 5
6
MOMENT AND READ THE INSTRUCTION FOR EYEWITNESS
IDENTIFICATION RIGHT NOW. YOU'LL GET THIS AGAIN AT THE
r 7
8
END OF THE CASE.
NO NEED TO TAKE NOTES ON IT. YOU'RE FREE TO IF
r 9 YOU WANT, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO. I THINK YOU'LL FIND
r 10
11
IT'S PRETTY COMMON SENSE IF YOU LISTEN TO IT.
WAY, AT THE END OF THE CASE, WE'LL READ ALL THE
BY THE
[ 12
13
INSTRUCTIONS, START TO FINISH, AND YOU'LL HAVE WRITTEN
COPIES OF THEM TO USE IN THE JURY ROOM.
r 14
15
YOU ALSO WILL HAVE THE BENEFIT, BEFORE YOU
ACTUALLY START WRESTLING AND APPLYING THOSE, OF HEARING
r 16
17
THE ARGUMENTS OF BOTH COUNSEL EXPLAINING THE
INSTRUCTIONS TO YOU.
r 18 WITH RESPECT TO EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION,
r 19
20
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, YOU WILL HEAR EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY
IN THIS CASE, AND SOME OF THAT TESTIMONY WILL IDENTIFY
[ 21 THE DEFENDANT, MR. DOMINGUEZ, AS THE PERSON INVOLVED IN
22 THE CRIMES CHARGED.
r 23
24
AS WITH ANY OTHER WITNESS, YOU MUST DECIDE
WHETHER AN EYEWITNESS GAVE TRUTHFUL AND ACCURATE
r 25 TESTIMONY. THOSE ARE REALLY THE TWO PRONGS OF
r 26
27
BELIEVABILITY, AREN'T THEY? TRUTHFULNESS ON THE ONE
HAND AND ACCURACY ON THE OTHER HAND.
r 28 A WITNESS MAY TRUTHFULLY SAYING WHAT HE OR SHE
[
197
1
l
1 BELIEVES, BUT MAY BE MISTAKEN, MAY BE INACCURATE. OR A
2 WITNESS MAY BE WILLFULLY FALSE OR UNTRUTHFUL. l
3 IN EVALUATING EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY, PLEASE
4 CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS: DID THE WITNESS KNOW 1
5
6
OR EVER HAVE CONTACT WITH THE DEFENDANT BEFORE THE
EVENT? OBVIOUSLY, YOU'RE BETTER ABLE TO RECOGNIZE
l
7 SOMEBODY IF YOU KNOW THEM BEFORE.
l
8 HOW WELL COULD THE WITNESS SEE THE PERPETRATOR?
9 WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES AFFECTING THE WITNESS'S l
10 ABILITY TO OBSERVE, SUCH AS LIGHTING, WEATHER
11 CONDITIONS, OBSTRUCTIONS, DISTANCE, AND DURATION OF l
12 OBSERVATION? HOW CLOSELY WAS THE WITNESS PAYING
13 ATTENTION?
l
14
15
WAS THE WITNESS UNDER STRESS WHEN HE OR SHE
MADE THE OBSERVATION? DID THE WITNESS GIVE A
l
16 DESCRIPTION, AND, IF SO, HOW DOES THAT DESCRIPTION 1
17 COMPARE TO THE DEFENDANT OR THE PERSON IDENTIFIED? WAS
18 THE WITNESS ASKED TO PICK THE PERPETRATOR OUT OF A 1
19 GROUP?
20 DID THE WITNESS EVER FAIL AT SOME EARLIER TIME l
21
22
TO IDENTIFY THE DEFENDANT? DID THE WITNESS EVER CHANGE
HIS OR HER MIND ABOUT THE IDENTIFICATION? HOW CERTAIN
1
23 WAS THE WITNESS WHEN HE OR SHE MADE AN IDENTIFICATION?
1
24 ALSO CONSIDER WHETHER THE WITNESS AND THE
25 DEFENDANT ARE OF DIFFERENT RACES. WAS THE WITNESS ABLE l
26 TO CORRECTLY IDENTIFY OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN THE CRIME?
27 WAS THE WITNESS ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE DEFENDANT IN A l
28 PHOTOGRAPHIC OR A PHYSICAL LINEUP? AND WERE THERE ANY
l
l
[
198
r
r 1
2
OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES AFFECTING THE WITNESS'S ABILITY TO
MAKE AN ACCURATE IDENTIFICATION?
3 AS ALWAYS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE PEOPLE
r 4 HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROVING BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
r 5
6
THAT IT WAS THE DEFENDANT WHO COMMITTED THE CRIMES
CHARGED IN THIS CASE. IF THE PEOPLE HAVE NOT MET THAT
r 7
8
BURDEN, THEN YOU MUST FIND HIM NOT GUILTY.
I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER POINT THAT IS WORTH
r 9 COVERING WITH YOU AT THIS JUNCTURE, AND THAT IS THIS:
r 10
11
THESE ARE RULES THAT APPLY TO WITNESSES ON ALL SIDES.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH SIDE CALLED THE WITNESS. ALL OF
L 12
13
THESE RULES APPLY TO BOTH SIDES.
AS TO SOME OF THE WITNESSES, YOU MAY HEAR THEM
r 14
15
TESTIFY TO ONE THING IN COURT, AND THEN YOU MAY HEAR ONE
OF THE LAWYERS PUT IN EVIDENCE THAT THE WITNESS SAID
r 16
17
SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THE PAST.
TO USE AN OVERSIMPLIFICATION, IT MAY COME TO
r 18 PASS IN THIS TRIAL THAT THE WITNESS SAYS, "I SAW A BLUE
r 19
20
CAR LEAVING THE SCENE. I'M POSITIVE IT WAS BLUE."
THAT'S WHAT THE WITNESS TESTIFIES TO ON THE STAND, AND
r 21
22
THEN YOU MAY HEAR TESTIMONY INTRODUCED BY ONE SIDE OR
THE OTHER THAT IN THE PAST THE WITNESS SAID, "I'M
r 23
24
POSITIVE IT WAS A RED CAR THAT LEFT THE SCENE," SAME
WITNESS; SAME WITNESS SAYING TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
r 25 THE REASON I'M MENTIONING THIS IS THIS: WE'VE
r 26
27
SPENT ALL THIS TIME TALKING ABOUT TESTIMONY AND, OF
COURSE, THE FIRST THING THE EVIDENCE CONSISTS OF IS THE
r 28 TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU ALSO
[
199
,
1
1 PAY ATTENTION TO WHATEVER PRIOR STATEMENTS THAT THE
2 WITNESS HAS MADE THAT YOU HEAR EVIDENCE ABOUT IN THIS l
3 TRIAL.
4 IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE WITNESS SAYS ON THE l
5 STAND IT WAS A BLUE CAR, AND THEN A LAWYER PUTS IN
1
6
7
8
EVIDENCE THAT THE WITNESS AT AN EARLIER TIME SAID IT WAS
A RED CAR, DON'T JUST TUNE IT OUT. KEEP TRACK OF BOTH,
BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE TOLD ABOUT SOME RULES ABOUT
,
l
9
10
11
THE USE OF THOSE STATEMENTS.
ONE OF THOSE RULES IS THAT YOU CAN USE HIS
PRIOR STATEMENTS TO DECIDE WHETHER HE'S BEING TRUTHFUL
,
12
13
AND ACCURATE RIGHT NOW, BUT ANOTHER RULE IS THAT UNDER
SOME CIRCUMSTANCES YOU CAN USE THOSE PRIOR STATEMENTS AS
l
1
,
14 IF THAT WERE THE EVIDENCE HE TESTIFIED TO HERE IN COURT.
15 SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU LISTEN NOT ONLY TO
16
17
18
19
WHAT THE WITNESSES ARE SAYING HERE IN COURT, BUT AS TO
ANY EVIDENCE THAT EITHER ONE OF THESE LAWYERS INTRODUCES
ABOUT THINGS THE WITNESS HAS SAID IN THE PAST, BECAUSE
THERE WILL BE RULES THAT WE GIVE YOU AT THE TIME OF
,
20 INSTRUCTION AS TO HOW YOU USE THAT. AND, AS I SAY, AS
l
21 TO SOME OF THOSE PRIOR STATEMENTS, YOU MAY USE THEM AS
l
22 THOUGH THEY WERE THE TESTIMONY HERE IN COURT.
,
23
24
25
26
WE TALKED A GOOD DEAL ABOUT THE CRIMINAL STREET
GANG ALLEGATION. I'M GOING TO READ TO YOU THE
DEFINITION OF WHAT A CRIMINAL STREET GANG IS.
THE INSTRUCTION YOU'LL GET AT THE END OF THE CASE.
THIS IS
I'M
,
27 ALSO GOING TO GIVE YOU AN INSTRUCTION RIGHT NOW ABOUT l
28 WHY GANG EVIDENCE IS BEING ADMITTED IN THIS CASE.
l
l
[
200
r
1 LET ME STEP BACK FROM THE TREES AND LOOK AT THE
r 2 FOREST FOR JUST A MOMENT. YOU REMEMBER THAT COUNT 1
3 CHARGES MURDER; COUNT 2 CHARGES CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT
r 4 MURDER. AS TO EACH ONE OF THESE COUNTS, THERE IS THE
r 5
6
FURTHER ALLEGATION THAT THE MURDER, ON THE ONE HAND, OR
THE CONSPIRACY ON THE OTHER HAND, WERE COMMITTED FOR THE
r 7
8
BENEFIT OF, AT THE DIRECTION OF AND IN ASSOCIATION WITH
A CRIMINAL STREET GANG, AND THAT WHEN THE DEFENDANT
r 9 COMMITTED IT, HE INTENDED TO FURTHER THE CRIMINAL

10 ACTIVITY OF A CRIMINAL STREET GANG.
[ 11 SO WHAT ALL THIS MEANS IS IF YOU FIND THE
[ 12
13
DEFENDANT GUILTY OF EITHER COUNT 1 OR COUNT 2 OR BOTH,
THEN YOU'D CONSIDER THIS GANG ALLEGATION. YOU'RE GOING
r 14
15
TO HEAR EVIDENCE ABOUT WHAT A CRIMINAL STREET GANG IS,
AND YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR EVIDENCE THAT OTHERWISE
r 16
17
WOULDN'T SEEM TO HAVE ANY RELEVANCE TO THIS CASE,
BECAUSE IT MIGHT TALK ABOUT OTHER CRIMES.
r 18 WELL, THE REASON THAT EVIDENCE IS COMING IN IS
19 TO HELP YOU DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS A CRIMINAL
r 20 STREET GANG, IF YOU GET TO THAT QUESTION, AND THEN
r 21
22
YOU'LL BE ASKED: DID THE DEFENDANT COMMIT THIS CRIME
FOR THE BENEFIT OF OR AT THE DIRECTION OF OR IN
r 23
24
ASSOCIATION WITH A STREET GANG, AND DID HE DO IT TO
FURTHER CRIMINAL ACTIVITY BY THE GANG?
r 25 SO HERE IS WHAT A CRIMINAL STREET GANG IS. AND

26 THIS WILL, I THINK, WHEN YOU HEAR THIS, AND THEN YOU
r 27 HEAR SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT COMES IN THAT MIGHT BE
r 28 OTHERWISE NOT IMMEDIATELY RELEVANT, YOU'LL SEE WHY THAT
[
201
,
1
1 EVIDENCE IS BEING RECEIVED.
2 AS WITH ALL EVIDENCE, THE FACT THAT I RECEIVE l
3 IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THAT ESTABLISHES THE FACT. YOU
l
4
5
6
DECIDE THE FACT. IF A WITNESS IS ON THE STAND HERE AND
FINISHES AND I SAY "THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT," OR,
"THANK YOU, SIR," OR, "THANK YOU, MA'AM," I TRY TO BE
,
l
,
7 POLITE TO ALL WITNESSES, BUT THE FACT THAT I'M SAYING
8 THAT, I'M NOT EXPRESSING ANY OPINION THAT THAT WAS GREAT
9
10
11
TESTIMONY. IT'S UP TO YOU TO DECIDE IF IT WAS GOOD
TESTIMONY OR NOT.
OKAY. HERE'S THE INSTRUCTION WITH RESPECT TO
,
12 THE CRIMINAL STREET GANG ALLEGATION. IF YOU FIND THE
13 DEFENDANT GUILTY OF THE CRIME CHARGED IN COUNT 1,
l
14
15
MURDER, OR COUNT 2, CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MURDER, YOU
MUST THEN DECIDE WHETHER THE PEOPLE HAVE PROVED THE
1
16 ADDITIONAL OR FURTHER ALLEGATION THAT THE DEFENDANT 1
17 COMMITTED THAT CRIME FOR THE BENEFIT OF, OR AT THE
1
18
19
20
DIRECTION OF, OR IN ASSOCIATION WITH A CRIMINAL STREET
GANG.
TO PROVE THIS ALLEGATION -- REMEMBER
,
21 LEMONADE THE PEOPLE MUST PROVE THAT, ONE, THE
l
22
23
24
DEFENDANT COMMITTED THE CRIME FOR THE BENEFIT OF, AT THE
DIRECTION OF OR IN ASSOCIATION WITH A CRIMINAL STREET
GANG; AND, TWO, THE DEFENDANT INTENDED TO ASSIST,
,
25 FURTHER OR PROMOTE CRIMINAL CONDUCT BY GANG MEMBERS. l
26 NOW, WHAT IS A CRIMINAL STREET GANG? A
27 CRIMINAL STREET GANG IS ANY ONGOING ORGANIZATION, l
28 ASSOCIATION OR GROUP OF THREE OR MORE PERSONS, WHETHER
l
,
[
202
r 1 FORMAL OR INFORMAL WE 1 VE GOT SOME INGREDIENTS HERE
r 2 TOO, SOME LEMONADE ONE, THAT HAS A COMMON NAME OR
r 3
4
COMMON IDENTIFYING SIGN OR SYMBOL.
NAME OR IDENTIFYING SIGN OR SYMBOL.
GOT TO HAVE A COMMON
r 5
6
TWO, THAT HAS AS ONE OR MORE OF ITS PRIMARY
ACTIVITIES THE COMMISSION OF ROBBERIES, IN VIOLATION OF
r 7
8
PENAL CODE SECTION 211, AND ASSAULTS WITH FIREARMS, IN
VIOLATION OF PENAL CODE SECTION 245(A) (2); AND, THREE,
r 9
10
WHOSE MEMBERS, WHETHER ACTING ALONE OR TOGETHER, ENGAGE
IN OR HAVE ENGAGED IN A PATTERN OF CRIMINAL GANG
[ 11 ACTIVITY.
r 12
13
SO YOU SEE WE 1 RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ANY
GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HANG OUT TOGETHER. THESE
r 14
15
REQUIREMENTS HAVE TO BE PROVEN BEFORE IT IS A CRIMINAL
STREET GANG, AND THEN YOU ASK WHETHER THE PEOPLE PROVED
r 16
17
THAT THE DEFENDANT COMMITTED THE CRIME FOR THE BENEFIT
OF, AT THE DIRECTION OF, OR IN ASSOCIATION WITH THAT
r 18 GANG, AND WHETHER IT WAS DONE TO ASSIST OR FURTHER OR
r 19
20
PROMOTE CRIMINAL CONDUCT BY THE GANG MEMBERS.
OKAY. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS REQUIRED FOR
r 21
22
THE DEFINITION OF A GANG IS THAT IT HAVE AS ONE OR MORE
OF ITS PRIMARY ACTIVITIES THE COMMISSION OF ROBBERIES
r 23
24
AND ASSAULTS WITH FIREARMS. IN ORDER TO QUALIFY AS A
PRIMARY ACTIVITY, THE CRIME MUST BE ONE OF THE GROUP 1 S
[ 25 CHIEF OR PRINCIPAL ACTIVITIES RATHER THAN AN OCCASIONAL
r 26
27
ACT COMMITTED BY ONE OR MORE PERSONS WHO HAPPEN TO BE A
MEMBER OF A GROUP.
r 28 IF YOU 1 RE IN A PHOTOGRAPHY CLUB THAT HAS A
r
203
l
l
1 COMMON IDENTIFYING NAME AND SYMBOL AND ONE OF YOUR
2 MEMBERS GOES OUT AND DOES A ROBBERY, THAT DOESN'T MAKE l
3 THIS A CRIMINAL STREET GANG, BECAUSE IT HAS TO BE SHOWN
4 THAT THAT KIND OF CONDUCT IS A PRIMARY ACTIVITY. l
5
6
ANY COMBINATION OF TWO OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
CRIMES OR TWO OR MORE OCCURRENCES OF ONE OR MORE OF THE
1
7
8
9
FOLLOWING CRIMES -- NAMELY, ROBBERY, PENAL CODE SECTION
211, OR ASSAULT WITH A FIREARM, PENAL CODE SECTION
245(A} (2}. IT IS ALSO REQUIRED THAT AT LEAST ONE OF
,
l
}
10 THESE CRIMES WAS COMMITTED AFTER SEPTEMBER 26, 1988.

11 IT IS ALSO REQUIRED THAT THE MOST RECENT CRIME l
12 OCCURRED WITHIN THREE YEARS OF ONE OF THE EARLIER
13 CRIMES, AND IT IS ALSO REQUIRED THAT THE CRIMES WERE
l
14
15
COMMITTED ON SEPARATE OCCASIONS OR WERE PERSONALLY
COMMITTED BY TWO OR MORE PERSONS.
1
16 THE CRIMES, IF ANY, THAT ESTABLISH A PATTERN OF 1
J
17 CRIMINAL GANG ACTIVITY NEED NOT THEMSELVES BE GANG

18 RELATED. THE PEOPLE NEED NOT PROVE THAT THE DEFENDANT l
19 IS AN ACTIVE OR CURRENT MEMBER OF THE ALLEGED CRIMINAL
20 STREET GANG. l
21
22
I DON'T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A STREET GANG TO
BE GUILTY OF THE GANG ALLEGATION IF I DO THIS CRIME WITH
l
23 ALL THOSE ELEMENTS MET, AS LONG AS I HELP THEM.
1
24 IF YOU FIND THE DEFENDANT GUILTY OF A CRIME IN
25 THIS CASE, YOU MAY CONSIDER THAT CRIME IN DECIDING l
26 WHETHER ONE OF THE GROUP'S PRIMARY ACTIVITIES WAS
27 COMMISSION OF THAT CRIME AND WHETHER A PATTERN OF l
28 CRIMINAL GANG ACTIVITY HAS BEEN PROVED. YOU MAY NOT
l
l
[
204
r
~
1 FIND THAT THERE WAS A PATTERN OF CRIMINAL GANG ACTIVITY
r 2 UNLESS ALL OF YOU AGREE THAT TWO OR MORE CRIMES THAT
r 3
4
SATISFY THESE REQUIREMENTS WERE COMMITTED, BUT YOU DO
NOT HAVE TO ALL AGREE ON WHICH CRIMES WERE COMMITTED.
r 5
6
NOW, THE PEOPLE HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROVING EACH
ALLEGATION BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. THAT INCLUDES
L 7
8
THIS GANG ALLEGATION. IF THE PEOPLE HAVE NOT MET THIS
BURDEN, YOU MUST FIND THAT ALLEGATION HAS NOT BEEN
r 9 PROVED, EVEN IF YOU FOUND THE DEFENDANT GUILTY OF COUNT
10 1 OR COUNT 2. SEPARATE ALLEGATION, YOU CONSIDER IT

[ 11 SEPARATELY; HAS TO BE PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
r 12
13
NOW, CLEARLY, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, YOU'RE
GOING TO HEAR EVIDENCE ABOUT CRIMINAL STREET GANGS. LET
r 14
15
ME GIVE YOU AN INSTRUCTION WITH RESPECT TO THAT.
IS ONE OF THOSE LIMITED PURPOSE INSTRUCTIONS.

THIS
r 16 YOU MAY CONSIDER EVIDENCE OF GANG ACTIVITY ONLY
r 17
18
FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF DECIDING WHETHER, ONE, THE
DEFENDANT, MR. DOMINGUEZ, ACTED WITH THE INTENT, PURPOSE
r 19
20
AND KNOWLEDGE THAT ARE REQUIRED TO PROVE THE
GANG-RELATED CRIME AND ENHANCEMENTS CHARGED, OR TO PROVE
r 21
22
THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD A MOTIVE TO COMMIT THE CRIME
CHARGED.
[ 23 YOU MAY ALSO CONSIDER THIS EVIDENCE WHEN YOU
24 EVALUATE THE BELIEVABILITY OF A WITNESS AND WHEN YOU

[ 25 CONSIDER THE FACTS AND INFORMATION RELIED ON BY AN
26 EXPERT WITNESS IN REACHING HIS OR HER OPINION. YOU MAY

r 27 NOT CONSIDER THIS EVIDENCE FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE.
r 28 YOU MAY NOT CONCLUDE FROM THIS EVIDENCE THAT
[
,
1 THE DEFENDANT IS OR MUST BE A PERSON OF BAD CHARACTER OR
205
,
1
2
3
THAT HE HAS A DISPOSITION OR PREDISPOSITION TO COMMIT
CRIME.
,
4
5
6
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WITH THAT PREAMBLE, I'M
GOING TO INVITE OPENING STATEMENTS FROM COUNSEL.
THAT YOU REMEMBER THAT THESE STATEMENTS ARE NOT
I ASK ,
7 EVIDENCE. YOU'RE FREE TO TAKE NOTES AS YOU WISH. I
l
8 THANK YOU FOR THE COURTESY THAT YOU'VE SHOWN ME, AND I
l
9
10
11
ASK THAT YOU EXTEND THAT COURTESY TO BOTH COUNSEL.
MR. TROCHA.
WE BEGIN WITH COUNSEL FOR THE PEOPLE,
,
12
13
GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. FOR THE
1
1
,
14 NEXT FOUR TO FIVE WEEKS, YOU'RE GOING TO GET A VERY GOOD
15 INSIGHT INTO GANG LIFE AND GANG DYNAMICS. YOU'RE GOING
16 TO FIND OUT THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN A J
17 GANGSTER'S WORLD IS RESPECT.

1
18
19
RESPECT IS A NOTION THAT'S GAINED THROUGH FEAR,
GAINED BY COMMITTING CRIMES, GAINED THROUGH OTHER GANG ,
20
21
MEMBERS' ACTIVITY, RESPECT BY YOUR OWN GANG MEMBERS, AND
RESPECT AND FEAR BY YOUR RIVAL GANG MEMBERS, AS WELL AS ,
22
23
24
THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH YOU OPERATE.
DRIVES THE GANG.
RESPECT.
RESPECT IS WHAT
THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN ,
25 NOW, PRIOR TO COMING IN HERE, I'D VENTURE TO l
26 GUESS THAT EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU KNOW THAT GANGS
27 HAVE RIVALS AND THAT THERE'S GANG WARS BETWEEN BLOODS l
28 AND CRIPS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. WELL, THERE IS
l
l
r 206
r 1 ALSO INTERNAL CONFLICTS WITHIN GANGS, AND THAT'S WHAT

[ 2 THIS CASE IS ABOUT.
3 THIS CASE IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A GANG MEMBER
r 4 DOESN'T FOLLOW THE RULES, WHEN A GANG MEMBER DISRESPECTS
r 5
6
ANOTHER GANG MEMBER AND DISRESPECTS THE GANG ITSELF.
PUNISHMENT IS METED OUT, AND IN THIS CASE THAT
[ 7 PUNISHMENT ENDED IN THE MURDER OF MOISES LOPEZ, A

8 15-YEAR-OLD GANG MEMBER NAMED SMOKEY, WITHIN THE
r 9 SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET GANG.
r 10
11 TWO-FOLD.
HIS HONOR'S TOLD YOU AS JURORS YOUR ROLE IS
YOU'RE HERE TO APPLY THE LAW TO THE FACTS IN
r 12
13
THE EVIDENCE. YOU'LL GAIN THE FACTS IN THE EVIDENCE
OVER THIS NEXT FOUR TO FIVE WEEKS.
r 14
15
A TRIAL IS NOT A FEAR- OR DRAMA-BASED
PRESENTATION ON WHICH AT THE END YOU ARE TO RENDER A
r 16
17
VERDICT BASED ON WHO DID A BETTER JOB. YOU'RE NOT HERE
TO BE SCARED INTO SUBMISSION. YOU'RE HERE TO LISTEN TO
r 18 FACTS AND EVIDENCE. YOU'RE NOT HERE TO DO A REFERENDUM
r 19
20
ON WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED OR WHAT PEOPLE COULD HAVE
DONE.
r 21
22
YOU'RE HERE TO DECIDE WHAT DID HAPPEN, WHO DID
IT, AND, IN THIS CASE, WHY IT WAS DONE. THAT'S YOUR
r 23
24
ROLE AS JURORS, TO BE OBJECTIVE.
WHAT DID HAPPEN IS BACK ON JULY 2ND OF 2008,
[ 25 THERE WAS A GATHERING OF A HANDFUL OF SHELLTOWN 38TH
r 26
27
STREET GANG MEMBERS UP ON TEAK STREET AND 38TH, WHICH IS
RIGHT IN THE HEART OF GANG TERRITORY. ONE OF THESE
[ 28 PEOPLE WAS MOISES LOPEZ. THE OTHER ONE WAS THE
r
207
,
l
1 DEFENDANT, FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
2 THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE THERE, INCLUDING A NAME 1
3 YOU MAY HAVE HEARD, EDWIN QUINTANILLA. EDWIN
4 QUINTANILLA HAS AN OLDER BROTHER NAMED JOHN QUINTANILLA.
l
5
6
THEY ARE ALL 38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS.
EDWIN IS KNOWN BY LIL CROOKS BECAUSE HIS BIG
1
7 BROTHER IS KNOWN BY BIG CROOKS OR CROOKS. WELL, TO MAKE
1
8 MATTERS MORE RELEVANT TO THIS CASE, WHAT HAPPENED IS
9 THERE WAS AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WALKED IN TO THIS BLOCK ON 1
10 38TH AND TEAK. NOBODY KNEW WHO HE WAS. FOR ALL INTENTS
11 AND PURPOSES, HE COULD HAVE BEEN ANYBODY BUT A SHELLTOWN l
12 38TH STREET GANG MEMBER.
13 WHAT YOU'LL FIND OUT IS WHEN AN INDIVIDUAL
1
14
15
WALKS IN OR INTRUDES INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD, IT'S THE DUTY
OF THE GANG TO CHECK THIS PERSON. AND HOW YOU CHECK A
1
16 PERSON IS YOU WALK UP AND YOU ASK, "WHERE ARE YOU FROM?" 1
17 THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR ADDRESS. THEY'RE
18 INTERESTED IF YOU BELONG TO A SPECIFIC GANG OR NO GANG l
19 AT ALL. AND DEPENDING ON YOUR RESPONSE, YOU MAY BE MET
20 WITH VIOLENCE OR A PASS.
l
21
22
WELL, IN THIS CASE, MOISES LOPEZ AND LIL CROOKS
WALKED UP TO THIS INTRUDER. THEY ASKED HIM WHERE HE WAS
l
23 FROM, AND INSTEAD OF TELLING HIM WHERE HE WAS FROM, HE
1
24 PULLED A GUN OUT. MOISES LOPEZ RAN. LIL CROOKS DIDN'T,
25 AND HE WAS SHOT DEAD. l
26 WE KNOW ABOUT THIS BECAUSE TWO DAYS LATER LIL
27 CROOKS' OLDER SISTER, MARLA QUINTANILLA, GAVE AN l
28 INTERVIEW TO THE POLICE. IN THIS INTERVIEW SHE TOLD THE
l
l
r 208
r
r 1
2
POLICE WHAT FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ TOLD HER IN TERMS OF
THIS MURDER.
r 3
4
AND HE TOLD HER HE WAS UPSET BY WHAT THE LITTLE
YOUNGSTERS HAD DONE. THEY WERE GOING TO LEAVE LIL
r 5
6
CROOKS THERE TO DIE. AND, IN TURN, HE WAS GOING TO TAKE
CARE OF IT, IN HIS WORDS, AND HE WAS GOING TO GET THOSE
r 7
8
LITTLE YOUNGSTERS WHO LEFT HIM LYING ON THE SIDEWALK.
GO FORWARD A COUPLE MONTHS TO SEPTEMBER 13,
r 9 2008. WE'RE STILL DOWN IN SHELLTOWN. WE'RE IN MOUNTAIN
r 10
11
VIEW PARK, ALSO KNOWN AS OCEAN VIEW PARK.
YOU'LL SEE THIS IS A LARGE PARK. IT'S CUT
r 12
13
RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE BY OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD. THE BOTTOM
PART IS COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS MOUNTAIN VIEW, THE TOP
r 14
15
PART IS OCEAN VIEW PARK.
38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS.
THIS IS A COMMON HANGOUT FOR
IT'S COVERED IN 38TH STREET
r 16
17
GANG MEMBER GRAFFITI, INCLUDING THE DEFENDANT'S MONIKER
OR NICKNAME, WHICH IS SPEEDY.
r 18 WELL, THERE WAS A BARBECUE EARLIER IN THE DAY
r 19
20
BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY, SOME OF WHICH WERE
38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS; NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT SMOKEY,
r 21
22
OUR VICTIM, MOISES LOPEZ.
AT THIS BARBECUE.
SEVERAL OF HIS FRIENDS WERE
THEY WERE HANGING OUT.
r 23
24
THE DAY GREW ON, THE SUN WAS GOING DOWN.
WAS A GATHERING IN OCEAN VIEW PARK. THIS WAS SOLELY
THERE
[ 25 38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS. IT WAS A PARTY IN WHICH BEER
r 26
27
WAS BEING DRANK, SOME MARIJUANA WAS BEING SMOKED, AND
SEVERAL NEW INITIATES WERE BEING JUMPED IN. YOU'LL FIND
r 28 OUT "JUMPING IN" IS A BEATING WHICH GAINS YOU ADMITTANCE
r
209
1
l
1 INTO THE 38TH STREET GANG; MAKES YOU, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
2 OFFICIAL. l
3 WELL, MOISES LOPEZ WAS PRESENT AT THIS.
4 SEVERAL OTHER INDIVIDUALS BY THE NAME OF DANIEL ZEPEDA, l
5 ANDRES LOPEZ -- UNRELATED JOSUE GUTIERREZ, TOMAS
1
6
7
LOPEZ -- AGAIN, UNRELATED VICTOR RAMOS, SIRIA FORD,
DIANA BANUELOS, FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ AND ABOUT MAYBE 10
,
J
8 TO 15 OTHERS WERE THERE.
9 COUPLE GUYS, AGAIN, WERE GETTING JUMPED IN, AND l
10 THEN IT CAME TO THE ATTENTION OF SEVERAL WITNESSES THAT
11 MOISES LOPEZ WAS STARTING TO GET JUMPED, WHICH WAS l
12
13
UNUSUAL BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY BEEN JUMPED IN.
ALREADY WAS OFFICIAL.
HE
BUT IT WAS THE DEFENDANT THAT WAS
1
14
15
BEATING HIM.
WORDS WERE BEING SAID WHICH REFERENCED LIL
1
16 CROOKS' KILLING, HOW HE WAS UPSET THAT HE DIDN'T DO HIS l
17 PART. IN THEIR WORDS, "TALKING SHIT ABOUT WHAT MOISES
18 DID BACK ON JULY 2ND." l
19 TWO OTHER PEOPLE CAME UP TO THIS BEATING, ONE
20 VERY LARGE MALE, "LARGE" BEING AT LEAST 300 POUNDS, THE l
21
22
OTHER BEING MORE OF A MEDIUM BUILD. THEY ASSISTED IN
THIS BEATING, PUNCHING MOISES LOPEZ FROM THE CHEST,
1
23 FACE, HEAD ON UP.
1
24 HE DIDN'T RESIST. HE WAS TAKING IT. THIS WAS
25 PUNISHMENT. THE PEOPLE THAT WERE INFLICTING THIS l
26 BEATING WAS KNOWN AS OG'S, OLDER GANGSTERS. THE
27 DEFENDANT IS AN OG. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT RUN THE l
28 GANG.
1
l
[
210
c 1 HIS BEATING CONTINUED FOR SEVERAL MINUTES IN

r 2 FULL VIEW OF THOSE IN THE PARK, AND, ADDITIONALLY, IN
r 3
4
FULL VIEW OF NEIGHBORS THAT LIVE AROUND THE PARK.
THE BEATING STOPPED, TWO MALES WERE SEEN DRAGGING MOISES
AFTER
r 5
6
LOPEZ UP A SMALL HILL IN THE PARK, AND THEN THEY JOINED
THE DEFENDANT OVER BY A FENCE.
r 7
8
A SHORT DISCUSSION WAS HAD, TWO, THREE, FOUR,
FIVE MINUTES, AFTER WHICH THE DEFENDANT BROKE AWAY FROM
r 9 THIS GROUP, STOOD OVER MOISES LOPEZ AS HE WAS LAYING ON
r 10
11
THE GROUND AND SHOT HIM FIVE TIMES IN THE CHEST.
THE BULLETS WENT STRAIGHT THROUGH HIS HEART.
ONE OF
[ 12 AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT, THE POLICE WERE

13 RESPONDING TO A CALL OF A FIGHT IN THE PARK FOR THE
r 14
15
ORIGINAL BEATING. THEY WERE IN THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF
THIS PARK WHEN THEY HEARD THE SHOTS BEING FIRED.
r 16 POLICE CARS DROVE INTO THE PARK. THEY
r
17 SURROUNDED THE PARK WITHIN SECONDS, SAW PEOPLE FLEEING
18 TO THE EAST INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD THAT YOU'LL SEE FROM
19 SEVERAL MAPS AND THE PHOTOS. THEY WERE GOING TO GIVE
[ 20 CHASE TO THESE PEOPLE, BUT THE FIRST TWO ORIGINAL
r 21
22
OFFICERS SAW MOISES LOPEZ LYING ON THE GROUND. HE WAS
STILL ALIVE, SO THEIR DUTY CALLS THEM TO RENDER AID AS
r 23 OPPOSED TO PURSUE SUSPECTS.
r 24
25
HE WAS OBVIOUSLY IN PAIN, BLEEDING FROM SEVERAL
GUNSHOT WOUNDS. OFFICERS WERE ASKING HIM INFORMATION.
r 26
27
IT TOOK THEM ABOUT 5, 10, 15 MINUTES TO TRY TO GET
INFORMATION SUCH AS, "WHAT IS YOUR NAME?" "WHERE DO YOU
[ 28 LIVE?" AND THEY ASKED HIM, "WHO DID THIS TO YOU?" AND
r
211
1
l
1 HIS RESPONSE TO THEM WAS, "I DON'T KNOW," AND HE DIED.
2 BUT WE DO KNOW WHO DID IT, BECAUSE l
3 MR. DOMINGUEZ, AS AN ATTENDEE OF THIS PARTY, LEFT BEHIND
4 TWO BEER BOTTLES WITH HIS DNA ON IT. ABOUT HALF A BLOCK l
5
6
AWAY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE PARK, YOU JUMP A FENCE, RUN
THROUGH SOMEONE'S BACKYARD INTO THE FRONT GATE OF THIS
l
7 HOUSE, POLICE FOUND TWO BLOODY GLOVES.
l
8 THE BLOOD ON THE GLOVES WAS MOISES LOPEZ'S.
9 THERE WERE SEVERAL DNA CONTRIBUTORS INSIDE, UP TO THREE l
10 ADDITIONAL PEOPLE. ONE OF THOSE CONTRIBUTORS IS SPEEDY,
11 FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. l
12 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AFTER YOU HEAR ALL THIS
13 EVIDENCE, YOU WILL DETERMINE WHAT DID HAPPEN THAT NIGHT.
1
14
15
YOU'LL DETERMINE THAT MOISES LOPEZ DIED AS A RESULT OF
MR. DOMINGUEZ BELIEVING HE DIDN'T FOLLOW THE RULES OF
1
16 THE GANG. YOU'LL HEAR THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ, FROM MARLA 1 1
17 QUINTANILLA, IS SEEN AS HER BROTHER; A BIG BROTHER TO

18 EDWIN QUINTANILLA. l
19 YOU'LL HEAR THAT HIS ACTUAL BIG BROTHER,
20 JONATHAN QUINTANILLA, WAS LOCKED UP IN PRISON DURING l
21
22
BOTH OF THESE MURDERS. YOU'LL HEAR THAT FLORENCIO
DOMINGUEZ WAS THE ONE IN THE PARK, ALONG WITH THESE TWO
l
23 CO-CONSPIRATORS, WHO DECIDED MOISES LOPEZ'S FATE. THEY
1
24 DECIDED THAT NIGHT MOISES LOPEZ WAS GOING TO DIE FOR HIS
25 ACTIONS BACK ON JULY 2, 2008. THANK YOU. l
26 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA. THANK YOU.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WOULD YOU PREFER TO BEGIN l
28 NOW?
1 :t
l
r 212
r
r 2 THE COURT: YOU MAY.
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND
r 4 GENTLEMEN. FIRST THING I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU IS THAT
[ 5 THIS CASE IS SCARY. IT'S SCARY BECAUSE A MAN SITS

6 ACCUSED OF MURDER WHEN THERE IS NO GUN RECOVERED, NO
r 7
8
MURDER WEAPON, NO MOTIVE THAT MAKES SENSE.
THE PROSECUTOR TOLD YOU HIS THEORY OF MOTIVE,
r 9 BUT WHAT YOU'LL HEAR FROM HIS OWN EXPERT IS THAT THAT
r 10
11
MOTIVE DOESN'T ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE WITHIN THE GANG
CULTURE.
12
[ 13
THE DEFENDANT SITS ACCUSED OF MURDER. HE
WASN'T EVEN ARRESTED UNTIL 18 MONTHS AFTER THE MURDER
r 14
15
OCCURRED. AND AS THE PROSECUTOR POINTED OUT, EVEN THE
VICTIM OF THIS CASE STATED HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO SHOT HIM.
r 16 THIS CASE IS SCARY BECAUSE YOU'LL HEAR THAT IT

17 INVOLVES A FALSE ACCUSATION BY A WITNESS NAMED ANDRES
[ 18 LOPEZ. KEEP THAT NAME IN MIND. MUCH OF THE
r 19
20
PROSECUTION'S CASE IS BASED ON THE TESTIMONY OF ANDRES
LOPEZ. AND WAIT UNTIL YOU MEET HIM.
r 21
22
HE IS AN INDIVIDUAL WITH A VERY LOW
INTELLIGENCE, WHO SAID SO MANY INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS
r 23
24
IN THE PAST THAT IT WILL MAKE YOUR HEAD SPIN, WHO WAS SO
DRUNK AND SO HIGH AT THE TIME THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT
r 25 HAPPENED; A WITNESS WHO READILY ADMITS THAT THE POLICE
26 COERCED HIM INTO SAYING THINGS THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
r 27 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. RELEVANCE.
[ 28 SIDEBAR.
r
213
l
1
1 THE COURT: SIDEBAR RULE IS IN EFFECT, LADIES
2 AND GENTLEMEN. OFF THE RECORD. l
3 (SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.)
4 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. l
5 THESE ARE OPENING STATEMENTS. THIS IS NOT EVIDENCE.
6 THIS IS WHAT COUNSEL BELIEVES THE EVIDENCE WILL SHOW.
l
7
8
YOU WILL MAKE THE FINAL DECISION AS TO WHETHER THE
EVIDENCE SHOWS ONE THING OR THE OTHER.
l
l
9
10
11
THANK YOU.
MAY CONTINUE.
THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.

YOU
, ~
12 THIS WITNESS WHO WILL READILY ADMIT TO YOU THAT

13 WHEN HE WAS FIRST INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE
l
14
15
APPROXIMATELY SEVEN MONTHS AFTER THE SHOOTING, THE
POLICE CONVINCED HIM TO SAY THINGS THAT WEREN'T TRUE.
1
16 THIS IS WHAT THE PROSECUTION'S CASE IS BASED ON. l
17 YOU'LL HEAR EVIDENCE OF DNA IN THIS CASE. THE
18 MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN DNA IS THE GLOVES. l
19 AS THE PROSECUTION HAS TOLD YOU, THEIR THEORY IS THAT
20 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S DNA IS ON THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE, l
21
22
EXCEPT SOME OF THAT TESTING WAS DONE BY THE SAN DIEGO
CRIME LAB AFTER THEY KNEW WHO THE SUSPECT WAS. SOME OF
l
23
24
THE CONCLUSIONS THAT THEIR EXPERT MAKES IS SPECULATIVE.
AND HE'S NOT THE ONLY DNA EXPERT YOU'RE GOING
1
25 TO HEAR FROM. WHAT YOU'LL HEAR IS THAT THE GLOVES ARE l
26 ACTUALLY A VERY COMPLICATED MIX OF DNA EVIDENCE AND NO
27 CONCLUSIONS CAN BE MADE WHATSOEVER. l
28 WHAT'S EVEN SCARIER ABOUT THIS CASE IS THAT
l
l
r 214
r
1 YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR SEVERAL WITNESSES COME INTO COURT
r 2 WHO ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO RELAY WHAT HAPPENED THAT

3 NIGHT IN A VERY LOGICAL MANNER THAT MAKES SENSE AND FITS
( 4 IN WITH ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE. THIS IS DIANA BANUELOS,
[ 5 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, VICTOR DOMINGUEZ AND SIRIA FORD.

6 AND WHAT THEY'LL TELL YOU IS THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ
r 7
8
WAS DOWN THE ALLEY BY FRANKLIN, ARGUING WITH HIS
GIRLFRIEND AT THE TIME THE SHOOTING TOOK PLACE, AND THAT
[ 9 HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER THE SHOOTING OR THE
10 BEATING OF MOISES LOPEZ.
r 11 THAT'S WHAT THIS CASE IS ABOUT. WHO DID IT?
12 WHO DID IT IS WHAT THIS CASE IS ABOUT. AND WHEN ALL THE
[
13 EVIDENCE IS HEARD AND YOU'VE SEEN EVERYTHING, YOU'LL
L 14
15
COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION THAT THE VICTIM DID:
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO DID IT.
THAT
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO BEAT UP
r 16
17
MOISES LOPEZ; THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHO SHOT MOISES LOPEZ.
THANK YOU.
[ 18 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU.
19 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, SCHEDULING-WISE, I ASKED
r 20 COUNSEL TO BE PREPARED TO CALL THEIR FIRST WITNESS THIS
r 21
22
AFTERNOON AT 1:30. LET'S TAKE THE NOON RECESS.
LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.
PLEASE
r 23 PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO

CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON
24
[ 25 ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL, OR TO FORM OR
r 26
27
EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS FINALLY
SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION.
WE ONCE LOST A JUROR STEPPING OFF A CURB AND
r 28
r
215
l
1
1 BREAKING AN ANKLE OVER THE NOON HOUR. SO PLEASE WATCH
2 THOSE CURBS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. HAVE A SAFE LUNCH. l
3 PLAN ON BEING OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM AT 1:30. THANK
4 YOU. l
5
6
l
7
8
ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.
l
9 MR. TROCHA, BATTING ORDER, PLEASE, FOR THE AFTERNOON. l
10 MR. TROCHA: IT IS --
11 THE COURT: I REALIZE IT MAY VARY, BUT WHAT l
12 WITNESSES SHOULD WE BE ANTICIPATING HEARING FROM?
13 MR. TROCHA: MELITON PUENTE, EDUARDO PUENTE,
l
14
15
JULIO RAMIREZ.
AVAILABLE.
WE ALSO HAVE JESSICA AND MAGDALENA LOPEZ
l
16 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. DO YOU 1
17 ANTICIPATE HAVING YOUR INVESTIGATING OFFICER HERE THIS
18 AFTERNOON? 1
19 MR. TROCHA: HE WILL BE.
20 THE COURT: AND THAT IS DETECTIVE LAMBERT? l
21
22
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
CORRECT. MICHAEL.
DO YOU ANTICIPATE A INVESTIGATING
1
23
24
OFFICER OR YOUR COLLEAGUE BEING WITH YOU?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE'S GOING TO BE HERE FOR MY
1
25 CASE IN CHIEF. l
26 THE COURT: OKAY. FOR YOUR CASE IN CHIEF. YOU
27 GAVE ME HIS NAME. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HIS NAME IS JOE MALDONADO.
1 J
l
[
216
r 1 THE COURT: I'LL MAKE AN EXPLANATION OF THIS TO

r 2 THE JURORS. WE'LL GET UNDERWAY AT 1:30.
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, IF I COULD, I'D
LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
BILATERAL MOTION.
THANK YOU. WE'LL DEEM THAT A
ALL WITNESSES ARE ORDERED EXCLUDED
r 7
8
FROM THE COURTROOM EXCEPT THE INVESTIGATOR AND THE
INVESTIGATING OFFICER. AND WHEN EACH WITNESS TESTIFIES,
[ 9 I'LL ADMONISH HIM NOT TO DISCUSS HIS TESTIMONY WITH ANY
r 10
11
OTHER WITNESSES OTHER THAN INVESTIGATORS.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
r 12
13
(AT 11:46 A.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN, TO
r 14
15
Ill
Ill
r 16
17
Ill
Ill
[ 18 Ill
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
[ 25 Ill
26 Ill
c 27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
217
l
1
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 29, 2011; 1:35 PM
2 l
4 AND GENTLEMEN. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL PARTIES 1
5
6
AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. IN ADDITION, DETECTIVE MICHAEL
LAMBERT HAS JOINED MR. TROCHA AT COUNSEL TABLE. GOOD
l
7 AFTERNOON TO YOU, SIR.
l
8 THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER: GOOD AFTERNOON,
9 YOUR HONOR. l
10 THE COURT: DEPUTY TRAPP, MAY WE HAVE THE
11 JURORS. l
l
14
15
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU.
l
16 GOOD AFTERNOON. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS l
17 HAVE ENTERED THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL
18 PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED ARE A PRESENT. A COUPLE OF VERY 1
19 MINOR MATTERS BEFORE WE BEGIN THE TAKING OF TESTIMONY,
20 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. l
21
22
FIRST OF ALL, YOU WILL SEE AT COUNSEL TABLE
WITH MR. TROCHA THIS GENTLEMAN WHOM YOU HAVE NOT YET
l
23
24
MET. THIS IS DETECTIVE MICHAEL LAMBERT FROM THE
SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT. THE LAW SAYS THAT EITHER
1
25 SIDE MAY HAVE AN INVESTIGATOR OR LEAD DETECTIVE OR l
26 INVESTIGATING OFFICER PRESENT DURING THE PRESENTATION OF
27 ITS CASE. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI HAS INFORMED ME THAT WHEN THE
l
l
[
218
r 1 DEFENSE BEGINS ITS CASE, AND POSSIBLY BEFORE THEN, THERE

[ 2 WILL BE AN INVESTIGATOR, MR. JOE MALDONADO, PRESENT ON
3 THAT SIDE OF THE TABLE. IN ANY EVENT, THAT'S WHO THIS
r 4 IS, DETECTIVE LAMBERT FROM THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
r 5
6
DEPARTMENT.
NEXT, YOU'LL REMEMBER IN VOIR DIRE I SAID I
r 7
8
WOULD PREFER THAT YOU NOT EAT POPCORN DURING THE
PROCEEDINGS. YOU MIGHT BE WONDERING, THEN, ABOUT THE
r 9
10
BASKETS OF CANDY THAT YOU SEE ON THE RAIL THERE IN FRONT
OF YOU. IT'S NOT A TEST. IT IS NOT ENTRAPMENT.
[ 11 WHAT IT IS IS MY STAFF VERY KINDLY DONATES
[ 12
13
THOSE AND PROVIDES THOSE TO HELP PEOPLE KEEP THEIR
ATTENTION GOING. FEEL FREE TO PASS THE BASKET, OR IF
[ 14 YOU'RE IN THE BACK ROW, ASK SOMEBODY IN THE FRONT TO

15 PASS THE BASKET BACK AS YOU NEED TO DURING THE COURSE OF
r 16
17
THE AFTERNOON, AND HELP YOURSELF TO THAT.
FINALLY, THE OLD RULES I ANNOUNCED DURING JURY
[ 18 SELECTION STILL APPLY. IF YOU NEED TO STAND AND STRETCH
r 19
20
YOUR BACK, TAKE A DEEP BREATH OR ANYTHING OF THAT SORT
TO MAINTAIN YOUR FOCUS AND ATTENTION. FEEL FREE TO DO
r 21
22
THAT NO MATTER WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE COURTROOM.
TRY TO NOT TO BLOCK THE VIEWS OF THOSE AROUND YOU.
JUST
l 23
24
ONCE AGAIN, IF AT ANY TIME ANYONE FEELS THE
NEED FOR A BREAK FOR WHATEVER REASON, INCLUDING FRESH
r 25 AIR, JUST LET ME KNOW AND WE'LL ALWAYS TAKE THAT RECESS.
r 26
27
I THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS
ATTENTION TO THIS CASE. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CALL YOUR
r 28 FIRST WITNESS.
r
219
l
1
1 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE
2 CALL MELITON PUENTE. l
4 THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE 1
5
6
EVIDENCE YOU SHALL GIVE IN THIS MATTER SHALL BE THE
TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO
l
7
8
HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
1
9 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT l
10 THE WITNESS STAND.
11 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU l
12
13
WOULD, PLEASE, SIR.
THE CLERK:
AND GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU.
COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL
'1
14
15
NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: MELITON PUENTE, M-E-L-I-T-0-N,
l
16 P-U-E-N-T-E. l
17 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY
18 EXAMINE. l
19 MELITON PUENTE,
20 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN THROUGH l
THE INTERPRETER, TESTIFIED THROUGH THE INTERPRETER AS
l
,
21
22 FOLLOWS:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. PUENTE. l
26 A. GOOD AFTERNOON.
27 Q. COULD YOU TELL THE JURY HOW YOU'RE CURRENTLY l
28 EMPLOYED.
1
l
r 220
r 1 A. I AM UNEMPLOYED RIGHT NOW. I JUST BECAME

r 2 UNEMPLOYED. I WAS LAID OFF.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
AND WHAT DO YOU NORMALLY DO FOR A CAREER?
CONSTRUCTION.
r 5
6
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A PARK IN SAN DIEGO KNOWN
AS OCEAN VIEW, ALSO KNOWN AS MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
BACK IN 2008, WERE YOU LIVING NEAR THIS PARK?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
BEAR WITH ME FOR A MOMENT. I HAVE SOME
c 11 PHOTOGRAPHS.
r 12
13
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S FIRST BEEN MARKED
AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1, TWO PHOTOGRAPHS WITH ONE OF THE
r 14
15
PHOTOGRAPHS BEING ENLARGED.
THE COURT: IS THERE ANY OBJECTION IF THESE
r 16 PHOTOGRAPHS ARE PUBLISHED TO THE JURY AS THE WITNESS
r 17
18
TALKS ABOUT THEM?
r 19
20
THE COURT: MIGHT I SUGGEST THAT YOU USE THE
WELL SO THAT ALL JURORS CAN SEE BETTER?
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA:
THE WITNESS:
SURE.
DO YOU WANT ME TO GO THERE?
c 23
24
MR. TROCHA: NO, NO.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
STAY THERE, MR. PUENTE.
YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO
r 25 TAKE A POSITION WHERE I CAN SEE THE EXHIBIT.

THE COURT: FEEL FREE TO MOVE AROUND AS YOU
c 26
27 NEED TO. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IF YOU NEED TO STAND AS
r 28 WELL OR MOVE TO SEE, FEEL FREE TO DO THAT, INCLUDING OUR
r
221
l
l
1 ALTERNATE JUROR.
2 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1, PHOTOBOARD WITH AERIAL l
3 VIEW OF THE PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
4 BY MR. TROCHA: l
5
6
Q. MR. PUENTE, LOOKING AT THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH
LABELED 1-A, IS THIS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE ENTIRE PARK AS
l
7 YOU KNOW IT?
A. YES.
l
8
9 Q. WHAT STREET RUNS THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THIS l

10 PARK?
~
11 A. FRANKLIN AND OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH. J
12 Q. IT'S WRITTEN ON HERE, BUT WOULD THIS BE OCEAN
13 VIEW IN THE MIDDLE HERE?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AND 40TH, WOULD THAT BE THIS STREET LABELED
l
16 40TH THAT RUNS LENGTHWISE? l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. AND, FINALLY, FRANKLIN -- IS IT THIS STREET 1
19 THAT KIND OF WRAPS AROUND THIS AREA?
20 A. YES. l
21
22
Q. DOES FRANKLIN ALSO TURN INTO CUYAMACA WHERE IT
BRANCHES OFF IN THIS AREA?
l
23 A. YES.
l
24 Q. THIS SECTION, 1-B, DOES IT APPEAR TO BE AN
25 ENLARGED PORTION OF THE NORTHERN PART OF THE PARK? l
26 A. UH-HUH.
27 Q. IS THAT A "YES"? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 222
r 1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, PHOTOBOARD WITH AERIAL

r 2 VIEW OF THE PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 3
4
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 2, DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE
r 5
6
JUST ANOTHER LARGER VIEW AND A DIFFERENT ANGLE VIEW OF
THAT SECTION?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WITHOUT TELLING US EXACTLY YOUR ADDRESS OR EVEN
r 9 SHOWING US ON THE MAP WHERE YOUR HOUSE WAS AT THE TIME,
r 10
11
GENERALLY WHERE WAS YOUR HOUSE ON THIS MAP? WAS IT AT
THE NORTH SECTION, THE EASTERN SECTION OR THE WESTERN
r 12
13
SECTION?
A. THE NORTH PART.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
FROM YOUR HOUSE, COULD YOU SEE INTO THE PARK?
JUST THE LOWER PART, BECAUSE THE PARK IS UP
r 16 HIGH.
Q.
r
17 THIS PARK ISN'T A FLAT PARK, CORRECT?
18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE PARK IS LAID OUT
JUST IN THIS NORTHERN SECTION?
r 21
22
A. FRANKLIN STREET IS LOWER, THE PARK IS HIGHER,
AND UP HIGHER IS FLAT.
r 23 Q. SO IF I'M GOING TO STAND DOWN ON FRANKLIN,
r
24 WOULD I BE ABLE TO SEE THE TOP OF THE PARK IN THIS AREA
25 HERE JUST TO THE NORTH OF THE BENCHES?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
NOT FROM MY HOME.
IF YOU COULD, SHOW US HOW FAR IN THE PARK YOU
r 28 COULD SEE. IF YOU COULD, STEP DOWN AND POINT IT OUT TO
r
223
,
us.
l
1
2 A. THE MOST I COULD SEE IS WHERE THIS TREE IS l

3 RIGHT HERE.
4 Q. WHERE IS THE TOP OF THE HILL IN THIS PARK? l
5
6
A.
Q.
THIS WHOLE AREA.
AND YOU'RE INDICATING AN AREA FROM WHERE THE
l
7 PARKING LOT IS ON THE SOUTH SECTION UP TO WHERE THIS l 1
8 LARGE CLUMP OF TREES IS?

9 A. I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT WHERE THE BATHROOMS ARE l
10 AND WHERE THE PERSON THAT WAS INJURED FELL.
11 Q. WE'LL GET TO THAT PART. THANK YOU, MR. PUENTE. l
12 PLEASE RETURN TO THE STAND.
13 SO FRANKLIN IS IN A LOWER AREA THAN THE TOP OF
l
14
15
THE PARK?
A. CORRECT.
l
16 Q. GOING BACK TO -- YOU REFERENCED A PERSON WHO l
17 WAS INJURED IN THE PARK. GOING BACK TO THAT DAY, ON
18 SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, WHAT WERE YOU DOING THAT EVENING? l
19 A. I WAS WITH MY FAMILY WATCHING A BOXING MATCH.
20 I USUALLY LEAVE MY DOOR OPEN. IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL l
,
l
21 NIGHT.
22 Q. THE DOOR THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LEAVING
23 OPEN, DOES IT OPEN UP TO FRANKLIN OR FACE FRANKLIN?
)
24 A. YES.
l
25 Q. YOU SAID YOUR FAMILY WAS WITH YOU. j
I
26 WHO IN YOUR FAMILY WAS WITH YOU?

27 A. ONE BROTHER, MY SISTER-IN-LAW. THAT'S ALL. l
28 Q. WHAT IS YOUR BROTHER'S NAME?
l
l
r 224
r 1 A. EDUARDO PUENTE.
r 2 Q. DO YOU ALSO HAVE A RELATIVE BY THE NAME OF
r 3
4
JULIO RAMIREZ?
A. THAT'S MY STEPSON.
r 5
6
Q. WAS JULIO WITH YOU FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE
BOXING MATCH?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO, HE WAS NOT WITH ME.
DID HE SHOW UP AT A LATER TIME?
r 9 A. YES. I THINK HE WAS OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE PARKED ON
r 10
11
THE STREET.
Q.
HE WAS PARKED ON THE STREET.
YOUR BROTHER, EDUARDO, WAS HE WITH YOU INSIDE
r 12
13
THE ENTIRE TIME?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AS YOU'RE WATCHING THE BOXING MATCH,
SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOUSE?

DID
r 16
17
A. WELL, NOT AT THAT MOMENT, BECAUSE I'M A LITTLE
HARD OF HEARING.
r 18 THE COURT: ONE MOMENT, PLEASE. MAY WE MOVE
r 19
20
THIS BACK SO MR. SPEREDELOZZI HAS AN UNOBSTRUCTED VIEW
OF THE WITNESS?
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
YES.
REFERRING TO THE EXHIBIT.
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PLEASE CONTINUE.
r 25
26
A. WELL, WE WERE WATCHING THE MATCH, AND THE SOUND
ON THE TV WAS RATHER LOUD.

r 27 Q. DID SOMETHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO OUTSIDE OF
r 28 YOUR HOME?
r
,
J
225
l
1 A. YES. I HEARD TWO SHOTS -- A FEW SHOTS. MORE
2 THAN TWO. l
3 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "SHOTS," WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING
4 TO? l
A. GUNSHOTS.
5
6 Q. COULD YOU TELL THE DIRECTION OR THE GENERAL
l
7
8
AREA FROM WHICH THESE GUNSHOTS WERE COMING FROM?
A. NO, BECAUSE I WAS INSIDE, SITTING ON THE COUCH,
l
9 WATCHING THE MATCH. l
10 Q. HOW MANY GUNSHOTS DID YOU ORIGINALLY HEAR?
11 A. EXACTLY, NO. BUT IT WAS MORE THAN THREE. l
12 Q. WERE THESE ALL AT THE SAME TIME OR WAS THERE ~
)
13 GAPS IN BETWEEN THE GUNSHOTS?
14
15
A.
Q.
THEY WERE ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU HEARD THESE GUNSHOTS?
l
16 A. I STOOD UP AND I LOOKED OUTSIDE.
17 Q. FROM WHERE YOU WERE STANDING IN YOUR HOME,
18 COULD YOU SEE OUTSIDE? l
19 A. YES, BUT ONLY TO WHERE I POINTED WHERE THE TREE
20 IS, WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER WAS. JUST TO WHERE THE l
21 TREE I SHOWED YOU TO.
22 Q. WHEN YOU LOOKED OUTSIDE, WHAT DID YOU SEE?
l
23
24
A. AT THAT MOMENT I SAW A POLICE CAR PARKING ON
FRANKLIN STREET.
l
25 Q. AND THIS IS IN THE LOCATION BY THE LARGE TREE l
26 YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER? FOR THE RECORD, WOULD THAT BE
27 THIS LARGE REDDISH TREE RIGHT BEHIND THE RED CAR ON l
28 FRANKLIN?
l
l
r 226
r 1 A. CORRECT.
r 2 Q. IF WE LOOK AT THIS RED CAR, WOULD THAT BE WHERE
r
3 THE POLICE CAR WAS, OR WAS IT IN FRONT OR BEHIND IT?
4 A. A LITTLE BIT FURTHER BACK.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
SO TOWARDS 40TH STREET.
(IN ENGLISH) 40TH STREET.
r 7
8
THE COURT: MADAM INTERPRETER?
THE INTERPRETER: YES, YOUR HONOR. I BELIEVE
r 9 HE RESPONDED IN ENGLISH, SO --
r 10
11
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
TOWARDS 40TH STREET.
r 12
13
Q. MR. PUENTE, COULD YOU ALSO SEE ANY OF THE OTHER
HOUSES NEXT TO THE PARK FROM YOUR HOME?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
COULD YOU SEE THIS HOUSE IMMEDIATELY TO THE
r 16
17
EAST OF THE PARK?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. COULD YOU SEE THIS HOUSE WHICH IS DIRECTLY TO
r 19
20
THE EAST OF THAT HOUSE, THE ORIGINAL HOUSE?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAW THIS POLICE CAR PARKED NEAR
THE TREE CLOSER TO 40TH STREET, DID YOU SEE ANY POLICE
r 23
24
OFFICERS?
A. TWO.
r 25 Q. WHAT WERE THE POLICE OFFICERS DOING?
r 26
27
A. ONE WAS BEHIND THE TREE, LIKE POINTING, LIKE
SCARED, WITH A GUN WHERE THE YOUNG MEN WERE RUNNING
r 28 AROUND.
r
227
l
Q. WE'RE JUST FOCUSING ON THE POLICE OFFICERS NOW.
l
1
2 WHAT WAS THE OTHER POLICE OFFICER DOING? l
3 A. THE OTHER OFFICER WENT TO TAKE CARE OF THE
4 MAN THE YOUNG MAN THAT HAD FALLEN. l
5 Q. COULD YOU SEE ALL THIS FROM YOUR HOME?
6 A. JUST TO WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER WAS. YOU
l
7
8
CAN'T SEE UP HIGH.
Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE FIRST POLICE OFFICER WAS
l
9 BEHIND THE TREE WITH HIS GUN DRAWN, AND YOU MENTIONED l
10 SEVERAL OTHER INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE RUNNING.
11 WHERE WERE THESE INDIVIDUALS? l
12 A. FROM THE ALLEY FROM IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE, FROM
13 THE PORCH, THERE WAS TWO YOUNG WOMEN COMING DOWN. THEY l
14
15
WERE A LITTLE FAT.
Q.
AND THEN I STARTED WALKING UPWARDS.
THESE WOMEN, WHERE WERE THEY?
l
16 A. THEY WERE COMING FROM UP HIGH FROM THE ALLEY.
l
17 Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ALLEY, IS THIS THE
18 ALLEY THAT RUNS BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE PARK? l
19 A. YES, CORRECT.
20 Q. WOULD THAT BE THIS DIRT STRIP THAT WE CAN SEE l
21 RUNNING NORTH AND SOUTH IN THE PARK?
22 A. CORRECT.
l
23
24
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
THE EXHIBIT, PLEASE?
THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2. THANK
l
25 YOU, YOUR HONOR. l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. WHAT DIRECTION WERE THESE WOMEN WALKING, l
28 TOWARDS FRANKLIN OR AWAY FROM FRANKLIN?
l
l
r 228
r 1 A. THEY WERE WALKING AWAY FROM FRANKLIN, TOWARDS
r 2 CUYAMACA.
3 Q. SO THEY WOULD BE WALKING INTO THE PARK?

rl
4 A. NO. THEY WERE COMING DOWN.
5 Q.
r 6 A.
SO WOULD THEY BE HEADING TOWARDS FRANKLIN THEN?
YES.
r 7
8 SAW?
Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE THESE TWO WOMEN THAT YOU
r 9
10
A. YES. THEY WERE TWO WOMEN BETWEEN 25 AND 30, A
LITTLE BIT FAT WITH SHORT HAIR, AND I DON'T REMEMBER

r 11 EXACTLY, BUT I THINK THEY WERE WEARING PANTS.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
COULD YOU DETERMINE THEIR ETHNICITY?
HISPANIC.
r 14
15
Q. OTHER THAN THESE TWO WOMEN AND THE TWO POLICE
OFFICERS, DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE IN THIS SAME AREA?
r 16
17
A. THE YOUNG MAN THAT WAS RUNNING AND THAT WAS
HIDING SOMETHING UNDERNEATH HIS SHIRT -- T-SHIRT.
r 18 Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE THIS MAN'S APPEARANCE FOR
19 US?
r 20 A. YES. HE WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT; BETWEEN
r 21
22
22 TO 25 YEARS OLD; BALD, NO HAIR.
Q. WHAT WAS HIS BUILD?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
HE WAS A LITTLE FAT ALSO.
HOW MUCH WOULD YOU SAY HE WEIGHED?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
MORE THAN 240.
LOOKING AT ME RIGHT NOW IN COURT, WAS HE BIGGER

r 27 THAN ME?
28 A. YES.
r
r
229
1
l
1 Q. WAS HE BIGGER THAN YOU?
l
2
3
4
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
WHERE DID YOU FIRST SEE THIS MAN?
WHEN HE WAS RUNNING TOWARDS THE STREET, WHEN HE
, J
JUMPED OVER THE FENCE TOWARDS THE HOUSE.

5
6 Q. AND WE'RE GOING BACK TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
l
7
8 A.
WHICH HOUSE ARE YOU REFERRING TO, MR. PUENTE?
THE ONE ON THE CORNER.
l
9 Q. THIS ONE? l
10 A. YES.
11 MR. TROCHA: INDICATING THE SECOND ONE IN FROM l
THE PARK, YOUR HONOR, LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPH, TO THE
12
13 LEFT. l
14
15
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
l
16 Q. IF I COULD GET YOU TO STEP DOWN, MR. PUENTE,
l
17 AND INDICATE EXACTLY WHERE YOU SAW THIS MAN IN REFERENCE
18 TO THIS HOUSE. l
19 A. THIS MAN WAS RUNNING FROM HERE.
20 Q. AND YOU'VE INDICATED AN AREA -- MR. PUENTE, WHY l
21 DON'T WE JUST GET YOU A RED PEN. I JUST WANT YOU TO
22 FIRST DRAW A DOT WHERE YOU FIRST SAW THIS MAN THAT
l
23
24
YOU'VE DESCRIBED AS THE BALD-HEADED LARGER MALE.
A. AROUND RIGHT HERE.
l
25 Q. YOU'VE DRAWN A RED DOT THERE. NOW, DID YOU l
26 WATCH HIM FROM THAT RED DOT TRAVEL TO THE HOUSE THAT
27 YOU'VE POINTED OUT FOR US? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 230
r 1 Q. CAN YOU PLEASE TRACE THE PATH WITH THAT RED
r 2 MARKER, SHOWING US THE PATH HE TOOK.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
RIGHT THROUGH HERE. HE WENT IN HERE.
AND THEN CAN YOU SHOW US -- DRAW A SECOND DOT
r 5
6
WHERE YOU SAW HIM IN THE YARD OF THE HOUSE AS YOU
DESCRIBED.
r 7
8
A. WHEN I SAW HIM, I SAW HIM IN THE SECOND HOUSE,
THE ONE THAT'S HERE IN THE CORNER, WITH TWO OTHER
r 9
10
PEOPLE.
Q. AND COULD YOU PLEASE DRAW A SECOND DOT IN THAT

r 11 LOCATION.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THIS HOUSE HAS A FENCE RIGHT AROUND HERE.
AND YOU'VE DRAWN AN X IN THAT LOCATION. THANK
r 14
15
YOU, MR. PUENTE. IF YOU'D RESUME THE STAND.
JUROR NO. 9: COUNSELOR, CAN YOU KEEP THAT UP
r 16
17
FOR JUST A SECOND?
MR. TROCHA:
HE WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF US.
YES.
r 18 JUROR NO. 9: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 20 Q. WAS THIS MAN WITH THE TWO WOMEN AS YOU
r 21
22
DESCRIBED, OR WAS HE -- DID HE APPEAR TO BE WITH THESE
TWO WOMEN OR NOT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I COULDN'T SAY, BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE IT.
THIS MAN, AS HE RAN FROM THE FIRST LOCATION
r 25 THROUGH THE YARD TO THE SECOND LOCATION IN THE FRONT
r 26
27
YARD AS YOU DESCRIBED, WAS HE ALONE OR WAS HE WITH
ANYBODY?
r 28 A. WHEN I TURNED AROUND TO LOOK AT THE FENCE, HE
r
231
l
l
1 WAS THERE ALREADY WITH TWO OTHERS.
2 Q. I DON'T THINK I ASKED -- THIS MAN, WERE YOU l
3 ABLE TO DETERMINE HIS ETHNICITY?
4 A. HISPANIC, MEXICAN. l
5 Q. THE TWO MEN HE WAS WITH, WERE THEY ALREADY IN
6 THE YARD WITH HIM WHEN YOU FIRST NOTICED THEM?
l
7
8
A. I WAS A LITTLE DISTRACTED. I WAS WATCHING THE
POLICE RUNNING EVERYWHERE AND OTHER PEOPLE RUNNING, SO
l
9 BY THE TIME I LOOKED -- I WAS VERY DISTRACTED WITH l
10 EVERYBODY RUNNING. BY THE TIME I LOOKED TO THE FENCE,
11 HE WAS THERE WITH THE TWO OTHERS. l
12 Q. THE TWO OTHERS, COULD YOU DESCRIBE THEIR
13 APPEARANCE FOR THE JURY? l
14
15
A. NOT EXACTLY. I JUST KNEW THEY WERE HISPANIC.
THEY LOOKED LIKE MY RACE.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
WERE THEY MEN OR WOMEN?
MALE.
l
18 Q. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THEIR AGES APPEARED TO BE? l
19 A. 18 TO 22, NO MORE THAN 30.
20 Q. SO THEY WEREN'T MUCH OLDER PEOPLE OR MUCH l
21 YOUNGER CHILDREN?
22 A. NO.
l
23
24
Q. WHAT DID THESE THREE MEN, NOW, APPEAR TO BE
DOING IN THE FRONT YARD OF THIS HOME?
l
25 A. THEY WERE HIDING FROM THE POLICE. l
26 Q. HOW WERE THEY HIDING? WERE THEY CROUCHING DOWN
27 OR DUCKING BEHIND THINGS? WHAT CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US? l
28 A. THEY WERE LIKE THIS.
l
,
J
r 232
r 1 MR. TROCHA: AND YOU'VE INDICATED, FOR THE
r 2 RECORD, KIND OF CROUCHING DOWN TO A THREE-QUARTERS
r 3
4
HEIGHT, WITH YOUR HANDS UP IN FRONT MOVING BACK AND
FORTH.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
SO REFLECT.
YOU COULDN'T SEE THEIR HANDS.
r 7
8
YOU COULD JUST SEE THEIR HEADS.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9
10
Q.
THEM?
I SEE. WAS THERE A FENCE IN BETWEEN YOU AND
r 11 A. YES, CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q. GETTING BACK TO THIS ORIGINAL MAN, THE LARGER
BALD MAN, YOU SAID HE APPEARED TO BE HIDING SOMETHING?
r 14
15
A. YES. WHEN HE WAS RUNNING DOWN, I SAW HIM.
WAS TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING UNDERNEATH HIS T-SHIRT,
HE
r 16
17
LIKE HE WAS TRYING TO HIDE IT AND HE COULDN'T DO IT.
Q. COULD YOU SEE HIS HANDS, OR WERE HIS HANDS
r 18 UNDERNEATH HIS T-SHIRT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
UNDERNEATH THE T-SHIRT.
COULD YOU SEE THE OBJECT OR WHATEVER HE WAS
r 21
22
DOING OR HAD IN HIS HANDS?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q. AND YOU KIND OF DESCRIBED THIS FOR US EARLIER.
ARE YOU SOLELY WATCHING THIS MAN, OR ARE YOU TRYING TO
r 25 WATCH MULTIPLE THINGS GO ON?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON.
SO WE HAVE THE LARGER MAN, THE TWO HEAVIER
r 28 WOMEN, AND THE TWO POLICE OFFICERS THAT YOU ORIGINALLY
r
233
l
l
1 SEE ONCE YOU COME OUTSIDE; IS THAT CORRECT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. A FEW MINUTES LATER YOU SEE THE LARGER MAN IN
4 THE FRONT YARD OF THIS HOUSE ACROSS THE STREET AND TWO l
5 SMALLER MEN; IS THAT CORRECT?
6 A. CORRECT.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE THE TWO WOMEN AT THIS TIME?
NO, BECAUSE THEY CAME DOWN BEFORE THE BALD ONE
l
9 DID. l
10 Q. DID YOU SEE WHERE THEY -- DID THEY GO TOWARDS
11 40TH? WERE THEY WALKING TOWARDS CUYAMACA? OR WERE YOU l
12 PAYING ATTENTION?
13 A. THEY WENT TOWARDS CUYAMACA. l
14
15
Q.
SAY, RUNNING?
AND YOU SAID THEY WERE WALKING AS OPPOSED TO,
l
16 A. WALKING NORMALLY.
l
17 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY CARS LEAVE FRANKLIN AT ANY TIME
18 ONCE YOU CAME OUTSIDE? l
19 A. NO CARS.
20 Q. NOW, MR. PUENTE, DID YOU STAY AT YOUR DOOR OR l
21 DID YOU GET CLOSER TO THE PARK AS THESE EVENTS WERE
22 UNFOLDING?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHICH ONE? DID YOU STAY IN YOUR HOUSE OR DID
l
25 YOU WALK TOWARDS THE PARK? l
26 A. NO. I WALKED UPWARDS TOWARDS THE PARK TO
27 SEE -- TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TOP OF THE l
28 PARK.
l
l
r 234
r 1 Q. AS YOU WALKED FROM YOUR HOUSE TO THE TOP OF THE
r 2 PARK, WHAT DID YOU SEE ALONG THE WAY?
r 3
4
A. I SAW THE YOUNG MAN THAT WAS LAYING ON THE
GRASS, SCREAMING AND CRYING THAT IT HURT, AND THE POLICE
r 5
6
OFFICER WAS ASKING HIM WHAT WAS HIS NAME AND WHERE DID
HE LIVE.
r 7
8 PARK?
Q. WAS THIS BOY AND THE POLICE OFFICER INSIDE THE
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES, ON TOP. ON THE TOP.
ONE LAST TIME, MR. PUENTE, I'M GOING TO HAND
r 11 YOU THE RED MARKER AND ASK YOU TO DRAW AN X IN THE PARK
r 12
13
WHERE YOU SAW THE BOY AND THE POLICE OFFICER.
A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS, BUT I THINK
r 14
15
IT WAS RIGHT HERE.
Q. AND YOU'VE DRAWN A RED CIRCLE BETWEEN THE
r 16 BATHROOMS AND THE ALLEY IN THE PARK.

17 A. YES.
r 18 THE COURT: I'LL ASK THE INTERPRETER AND THE
r 19
20
WITNESS TO GET OUT OF THE WAY SO THE JURORS CAN SEE WHAT
WAS DRAWN. IF YOU'D INDICATE, MR. TROCHA.
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA: I WILL, YOUR HONOR.
RIGHT HERE THAT MR. PUENTE HAS DRAWN.
THE CIRCLE IS
AND TO RECAP,
r 23
24
THIS IS THE ORIGINAL RED DOT WITH THE LINE RUNNING
THROUGH THIS DIRT BACKYARD, INDICATING THE HEAVY MAN
r 25 WITH THE BALD HEAD, AND THIS X INDICATES WHERE THE HEAVY
r
26 MAN WAS LATER SEEN WITH TWO OTHER HISPANIC MALES.
r 28 Ill
r
235
1
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. HOW FAR DID YOU GET INTO THE PARK, MR. PUENTE? l
3 A. WHERE THE DEAD ONE WAS.
4 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO WALK ACTUALLY UP TO WHERE THE l
BOY WAS?
5
6 A. YES, ABOUT 10 FEET.
l
7
8
Q.
WELL?
DID YOU SPEAK WITH THE POLICE THAT NIGHT AS
l
9 A. NO. THEY WENT TO MY HOME TO SPEAK TO ME. l
10 Q. THEY CAME TO YOU?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. OF THE PEOPLE YOU'VE DESCRIBED, THE POLICE
13 OFFICERS, THE BOY, THE THREE MALES AND THE TWO WOMEN, l
14
15
DID YOU GET A GOOD LOOK AT ANY OF THEIR FACES?
A. IT WAS A LITTLE BIT DARK. IT WAS DARK, SO YOU
l
16 COULDN'T SEE THEIR FACES VERY WELL.
l
17 Q. THE SECOND QUESTION IS: DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD
18 BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE ANY OF THEM AGAIN IF YOU WERE ABLE l
19 TO SEE THEM?
20 A. I DON'T THINK SO. l
21 Q. NOW, JUST TO WRAP UP, MR. PUENTE, WE'RE TALKING
22 ABOUT THE LIGHTING THAT NIGHT. YOU SAID IT IS DARK.
l
23
24 A.
ABOUT WHAT TIME OF NIGHT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
I THINK IT WAS A LITTLE BIT PAST EIGHT.
l
25 Q. FROM YOUR HOME, YOU COULD SEE ALL THE WAY TO l
26 THAT TREE, THOUGH, WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER WAS STANDING
27 WITH THE GUN, CORRECT? l
28 A. YES, CORRECT.
l
l
r 236
r 1 Q. YOU COULD ALSO SEE THE MAN UP IN THE ALLEY
r 2 BEHIND THE OTHER HOUSE AS HE RAN THROUGH THE YARDS,
r
3 CORRECT?
4 A. CORRECT.
r 5
6
Q. AND YOU COULD FINALLY SEE THE MAN WITH THE TWO
OTHER MEN IN THE FRONT YARD OF THE HOUSES THAT YOU'VE
r 7
8
DESCRIBED, CORRECT?
A. I WAS ALREADY UP THERE WHEN I SAW THEM.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
YOU WERE IN THE PARK WHEN YOU SAW THEM?
CORRECT.
r 11 Q. SO YOU COULD SEE THEM FROM THE PARK FROM THAT
r 12
13
DISTANCE AS WELL?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND THE ONLY THING YOU REALLY COULDN'T MAKE OUT
WAS DISTINGUISHING FACES OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
r 16
17
A. BECAUSE THEY WERE COVERING UP WITH THE WOOD,
AND THEY WERE LOOKING THROUGH THE GAPS IN BETWEEN THE
r 18 PLANKS.
r 19
20
Q. BUT YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY SEEING THE
OTHER THINGS THAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US IN COURT
r 21
22
TODAY?
A. YES.
r 23
24 FURTHER.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MR. PUENTE. NOTHING
r 25 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, THANK YOU.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY EXAMINE.

r
26
r 28 Ill
r
237
l
l
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI: l
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. PUENTE.
4 A. GOOD AFTERNOON. l
5 Q. SO THIS HAPPENED ABOUT SEPTEMBER 13, 2008,
6 CORRECT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW THE DATE EXACTLY, BUT I THINK SO.
OKAY. AND YOU STATED EARLIER THAT IT WAS
l
9 AROUND -- AFTER EIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT? l
10 A. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE IF IT WAS AROUND EIGHT OR
11 A LITTLE BIT BEFORE, BUT AROUND THAT TIME. l
12 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN LATER, LIKE NINE, 9:15?
13 A. NO, I DON'T THINK so. l
14
15
Q.
A.
WAS IT DARK OUT?
IT WAS STARTING TO GET DARK.
l
16 Q. OKAY. MR. PUENTE, WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THE
l
17 SHOTS FIRED, DID YOU GET UP IMMEDIATELY?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. AND JUST TO REMIND THE JURY, YOU WERE WATCHING
20 A BOXING MATCH, CORRECT? l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. SO WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THE SHOTS, YOU WERE
l
23
24
SITTING?
A. CORRECT.
l
25 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU HEARD THE SHOTS, YOU GOT l
26 UP?
27 A. EXACTLY. l
28 Q. AND DID YOU SAY YOUR DOOR WAS OPEN?
l
l
r 238
r 1 A. I ALWAYS HAVE IT OPEN.
r 2 Q. AND YOU IMMEDIATELY WENT OUTSIDE?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO. FIRST I STOOD BY THE PORCH.
AND THEN YOU -- HOW LONG DID YOU STAND AT THE
r 5
6
PORCH FOR?
A. NO MORE THAN A MINUTE, MINUTE AND A HALF, TWO.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
AND THEN YOU WALKED OVER TO THE PARK?
CORRECT. AFTERWARDS, YES.
r 9 Q. WHEN YOU WERE STANDING ON THE PORCH, HAD ALL
r 10
11
THE SHOTS BEEN FIRED ALREADY?
A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. SO YOU DIDN'T LEAVE YOUR HOUSE UNTIL ALL THE
SHOTS HAD BEEN FIRED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THEN YOU WALKED OVER TO THE AREA OF THE
r 16
17
PARK, CORRECT?
A. AFTER THE BALD ONE CAME DOWN AND JUMPED OVER
r 18 THE FENCE.
Q. SO WHEN YOU SAW THE BALD ONE, YOU WERE STILL
19
r 20 STANDING ON YOUR PORCH?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
SO WHEN YOU SAW THE BALD ONE, IT WAS CLOSE IN
r 23
24
TIME TO WHEN YOU LEFT THE HOUSE?
A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
r 25 Q. SURE. WHEN YOU SAW THE BALD ONE, IT WAS VERY
r 26
27
SOON AFTER YOU HAD LEFT THE HOUSE, CORRECT?
A.
Q.
ALMOST INSTANTLY, CORRECT.
SO LET'S TRY AND RECREATE THIS, MR. PUENTE.
28
r
r
239
l
l
1 YOU ARE SITTING DOWN, YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS, YOU GET UP
2 IMMEDIATELY, YOU WALK OUTSIDE AND YOU SEE THE BALD GUY l
3 RUNNING DOWN THE HILL, CORRECT?
4 A. AFTER THE TWO WOMEN THAT CAME DOWN. l
5 Q. SO YOU WALK OUTSIDE, YOU SEE TWO WOMEN WALK
6 DOWN, AND THEN YOU SEE THE BALD GUY WHO IS FURTHER UP
l
7
8
THE HILL START RUNNING DOWNHILL, CORRECT?
A. EXACTLY.
l
9 Q. AND DID YOU WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN -- 1
10 WELL, YOU DID ASCERTAIN WHERE THE SHOOTING TOOK PLACE
11 BECAUSE YOU MARKED IT ON THE EXHIBIT, CORRECT? 1
12 A. I DIDN'T MARK WHERE THE SHOOTING WAS. I SAID
13 THAT THE SHOTS WERE FROM UP THERE.
l
14
15
Q. DID THE BALD GUY APPEAR TO BE RUNNING FROM THE
AREA OF WHERE THE SHOOTING TOOK PLACE?
l
16 A. I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION. I JUST SAW HIM, THAT
l
17 HE WAS COMING DOWN THE ALLEYWAY.
18 Q. YOU TESTIFIED IN A PRIOR HEARING IN THIS CASE, l
19 CORRECT?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER STATING, "THE GUY WAS COMING
22 DOWN RUNNING, I GUESS FROM WHERE HE SHOT THE GUY"?
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA:
PAGE AND A TRANSCRIPT?
YOUR HONOR, IF WE COULD HAVE A
l
25 THE COURT: PLEASE. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS IS GOING TO BE A
27 HEARING TRANSCRIPT FROM OCTOBER 8, 2010, AND IT'S PAGE l
28 19, LINES 13 THROUGH 15.
l
l
r 240
r 1 THE COURT: THE DATE OF THE HEARING WAS?
r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OCTOBER 8, 2010.
r 3
4
THE COURT:
BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THANK YOU.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT, MR. PUENTE?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 7
8
Q. IF I SHOWED YOU A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT, WOULD
THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
r 9 A. IF YOU REPEAT IT AGAIN, MAYBE I'LL REMEMBER.
r 10
11
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING, "THE GUY WAS COMING
DOWN RUNNING, I GUESS FROM WHERE HE SHOT THE GUY"?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WELL, I IMAGINE SO, YES.
SO I ASK YOU AGAIN, MR. PUENTE, DID IT APPEAR
r 14
15
AS THOUGH HE WAS RUNNING FROM THE AREA WHERE THE
SHOOTING TOOK PLACE?
r 16
17
A. LIKE I SAID, FROM MY HOUSE YOU CAN'T SEE,
BECAUSE THE PARK IS WAY UP HIGH. I JUST SAW HIM WHEN HE
r 18 WAS RUNNING FROM THE ALLEY TO THE HOUSE WHERE HE JUMPED
r 19
20
THE FENCE.
Q. HE WASN'T RUNNING TOWARDS WHERE THE SHOOTING
r 21
22
TOOK PLACE, WAS HE?
A. I DIDN'T SEE.
r 23
24
Q. AND IF WE'RE TO DESCRIBE THIS GUY, IT WOULD --
YOU WOULD SAY HE WAS TALL, CORRECT?
r 25 A. WELL, A LITTLE BIT -- MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE
r 26
27
THAN SIX FEET, A LITTLE BIT LESS.
Q. AROUND SIX FEET TALL?
AROUND THERE.
r 28 A. YES.
[
241
l
l
1 Q. AND NOT TO BE RUDE, BUT HE WAS A LITTLE CHUBBY,
2 CORRECT? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WOULD YOU SAY HE WEIGHED ABOUT BETWEEN 240 AND l
260 POUNDS?
5
6 A. CORRECT.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
AND HE WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT?
YES.
l
9
10
11
Q.
HONOR.
AND THEN -- I'M GOING TO ENTER THE WELL, YOUR
THE COURT: YOU MAY. YOU NEED NOT ASK LEAVE.

,
l
J
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU.

13 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
l
14
15
Q. AND, AGAIN, THE MAN JUMPED THE FENCE RIGHT AT
THE CURVE OF THIS RED LINE, INDICATING THE RED LINE
l
l
16
17
18
19
PREVIOUSLY DRAWN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A.
Q.
A.
RIGHT THERE. HE WENT BY THERE.
AND HE WAS RUNNING?
YES, LIKE SCARED, RUNNING, LIKE HOLDING --
,
20 HIDING SOMETHING. l
21 NOW, WHEN YOU SAY HE WAS HIDING SOMETHING, HE
22
Q.
WAS HIDING SOMETHING UNDER HIS SHIRT, CORRECT?

l
23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WAS HE USING HIS RIGHT HAND OR HIS LEFT HAND?
l
25 A. THE RIGHT HAND. l
26 Q. AND WHAT WAS HE DOING WITH HIS LEFT HAND?
27 A. HE WAS DOING IT WITH BOTH HANDS. BOTH HANDS. l
28 Q. WERE BOTH HANDS UNDER HIS SHIRT?
l
l
r 242
r 1 A. LIKE HE WAS GRABBING HIS PANTS OR LIKE HOLDING
r 2 HIS PANTS OR SO NOT TO DROP WHAT HE WAS HOLDING.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WAS HE PULLING HIS T-SHIRT OVER HIS HAND?
HE JUST HAD IT UNDERNEATH THE T-SHIRT.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHAT HE WAS HOLDING?
NO.
r 7
8
Q. AND WHEN YOU SAW HIM RUNNING IN THE AREA THAT
YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY DRAWN WITH THE RED DOT AND THEN THE
r 9 CURVED LINE ON THE EXHIBIT, HE WAS ALONE?
r A. AT THAT MOMENT, YES.

10
11 Q. OKAY. AND THEN YOU SAW TWO OTHER PEOPLE -- I'M
r 12
13
GOING TO ENTER THE WELL AGAIN, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THAT'S FINE.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THANK YOU.
r 16
17
Q. YOU SAW TWO OTHER PEOPLE IN THE AREA WHERE
YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY DRAWN AN X ON PEOPLE'S 2?
r 18 A. CORRECT.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
AND WAS THE MAN WITH THESE TWO PEOPLE?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
AND THEY ALL WERE HIDING?
CORRECT.
r 23
24
Q.
FACES?
DID YOU GET A LOOK AT THOSE TWO PEOPLE'S
r 25 A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU SEE WHETHER THEY HAD HAIR?
r
26
27 A. I DIDN'T KNOW. I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION.
r 28 Q. AND YOU SAID THEY WERE ABOUT 18 TO 22 YEARS
r
243
l
l
1 OLD?
2 A. MORE OR LESS. l
3 Q. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT?
4 A. WELL, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE, l
5 BUT I CAN PRETTY MUCH TELL HOW OLD A PERSON IS. YOU CAN
6 SEE HOW OLD THEY LOOK.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE WHAT THEY WERE WEARING?
NO, EXCEPT THE BALD ONE.
l
9 Q. THAT'S THE ONLY ONE WHO YOU SAW WHAT HE WAS l
10 WEARING? AND, AGAIN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BALD ONE
11 IS THE ONE YOU INITIALLY SAW RUNNING DOWN THE ALLEY, l
12 RIGHT?
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q. SO YOU SAW THE BALD GUY, THE TWO PEOPLE HIDING
IN THE HOUSE, AND A WOMAN?
l
16 A. NO. I DIDN'T SAY A WOMAN.
l
17 Q. TWO WOMEN?
18 A. BUT THEY WEREN'T HIDING. THEY WERE COMING DOWN l
19 TO THE ALLEY TOWARDS THE 40TH -- TOWARDS FRANKLIN. FROM
20 THE ALLEY TO FRANKLIN. l
21 Q. LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
22 I'M GOING TO NAME THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF
l
23
24
NON-POLICE OFFICERS YOU SAW IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU CAME
OUTSIDE, AND YOU TELL ME IF I GOT EVERYBODY. OKAY?
l
25 THE CHUBBY BALD GUY, THE TWO MEN HIDING BEHIND l
26 THE FENCE, AND TWO WOMEN.
27 A. WELL, THE WOMEN -- LIKE I SAID, I DON'T KNOW IF l
28 THEY WERE WITH HIM OR NOT.
l
l
r 244
r 1 Q. BUT THEY WERE THERE AND YOU SAW THEM.
r 2 A. YES, CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q. AND EVERYBODY ELSE WHO YOU SAW, BESIDES THE
PERSON WHO WAS SHOT, WAS A POLICE OFFICER?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
SO HAD THE PARK BEEN FILLED WITH, SAY, 30
r 7
8
PEOPLE, THOSE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN GONE BY THE TIME
YOU GOT THERE, CORRECT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
UP THERE, YES.
MR. PUENTE, DO YOU SEE THIS GENTLEMAN SITTING
r 11 AT DEFENSE TABLE WEARING A NAVY BLUE SUIT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
IT'S NOT HIM. I DON'T KNOW HIM.
HAVE YOU SEEN HIM BEFORE?
r 14
15
A. NO.
THE INTERPRETER: YOUR HONOR, IF I MAY CLARIFY
r 16
17
WITH THE WITNESS?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
r 18 THE WITNESS: I'VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE, BUT
r 19
20
HE LOOKS A BIT OLDER THAN THE ONE I SAW.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHICH ONE, MR. PUENTE?
THE ONE THAT'S SITTING THERE.
r 23
24
Q.
TWO MEN?
HE LOOKS OLDER THAN WHO? THE BALD GUY OR THE
r 25 A. THE BALD ONE. THE BALD ONE.
r 26
27
Q. AND WHEN YOU TESTIFIED IN A PRIOR HEARING, YOU
SAW MR. DOMINGUEZ THAT TIME AS WELL.
r 28 A. YES.
r
,
1 Q. BUT YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE HIM FROM THAT NIGHT,
245
,
2 SEPTEMBER 13, 2008? 1
3 A. NO.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. NOTHING l
5 FURTHER.
l
7
8
IS THERE REDIRECT?
MR. TROCHA: PLEASE, YOUR HONOR.
l
9 THE COURT: YOU MAY. l
10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. TROCHA: l
12 Q. MR. PUENTE, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE BALD GUY
13 WEARING A T-SHIRT, IS THIS A SHIRT WITH SLEEVES? l
14
15
THE INTERPRETER:
INTERPRETER?
CAN YOU REPEAT THAT FOR THE
l
l
16
17
18
19
Q.
MR. TROCHA:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SURE.
WHEN YOU SAY THE WHITE T-SHIRT, IS THIS A SHIRT

WITH SLEEVES ON IT?
,
20 A. NO SLEEVES. l
21 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT A TANK TOP IS?
22 A. WHAT IS THAT?
l
23
24
Q. LET ME WORD IT THIS WAY: YOU'VE REFERRED TO IT
AS A T-SHIRT, BUT YOU'VE TOLD US IT HAS NO SLEEVES.
l
25 HOW DOES THIS SHIRT LOOK? l
26 A. IT'S WHITE. IT DOESN'T HAVE A NECK OR A
27 COLLAR. l
28 Q. DOES IT HAVE TWO STRAPS THAT GO OVER A PERSON'S
l
l
r 246
r
r
1 SHOULDERS?
2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q.
SLEEVES?
SO IT'S A SHIRT WITH NO COLLAR AND NO
r 5
6
A. IT DOES HAVE SLEEVES, BUT THEY'RE NOT LONG.
THEY'RE JUST UP TO HERE.
r 7
8
Q. THIS PERSON WHO WAS WEARING IT, HE WAS THE ONE
THAT WAS LARGER, 240, 250 IN WEIGHT?
r 9 A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
r 10
11
Q.
A.
SURE. HOW MUCH DID HE WEIGH?
LIKE I SAID, OVER 240 POUNDS.
r 12
13
Q. THIS PERSON -- WHEN THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY WAS
ASKING YOU ABOUT A STATEMENT SAYING THAT YOU SAW HIM
r 14
15
SHOOT A GUY, DID YOU SEE HIM SHOOT ANYBODY?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE
r 16 FACTS.
r 17
18
THE COURT:
WHAT THE STATEMENT SAID.

SUSTAINED. I DON'T THINK THAT'S
r 19
20
YOU DON'T NEED TO ANSWER, SIR.
MAY I HAVE THE QUESTION READ BACK THAT
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI ASKED?
MR. TROCHA:
EITHER OF YOU.
IT WAS REFERENCE TO THIS PART OF
r 23
24
THE TRANSCRIPT WHERE MR. PUENTE WAS ATTRIBUTED TO
SAYING, "WHEN HE SAW THE POLICE, BECAUSE THEY ALMOST GOT
r 25 THERE ABOUT THE SAME TIME, THE GUY WAS COMING DOWN
r 26
27
RUNNING, I GUESS FROM WHERE HE SHOT THE GUY."
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT.
r 28 Ill
r
247
l
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE LINE OF QUESTIONING l
3 INVOLVING THAT STATEMENT, MR. PUENTE?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE ANYBODY SHOOT SOMEBODY?
6 A. NO.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
YOU SAW SOMEBODY WHO HAD BEEN SHOT, CORRECT?
EXACTLY.
l
9 Q. ONE LAST TIME ON THIS DIAGRAM OF PEOPLE'S 1
10 EXHIBIT 2, MR. PUENTE -- MR. PUENTE, I'M NOT GOING TO
11 ASK YOU TO COME DOWN HERE. I'M JUST GOING TO POINT TO A l
12 LOCATION ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2. OKAY?
13 DO YOU SEE THIS LOCATION WHERE THE DIRT ALLEY l
14
15
MEETS FRANKLIN AVENUE?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. DO YOU SEE THE SIDEWALK DIRECTLY TO THE EAST OF
l
17 THAT ALLEY?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY IN THAT LOCATION WHEN YOU
20 LOOKED OUT OF YOUR HOUSE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GUNSHOTS? l
21 A. NO. ONLY -- NO.
22 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY AROUND THAT LOCATION WHEN
l
23
24
YOU CAME OUT OF THE HOUSE AFTER YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS?
A. NO.
l
25 Q. WOULD YOU HAVE SEEN SOMEBODY THERE IF THEY WERE l
26 THERE?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR l
28 SPECULATION.
l
l
r 248
[
1 THE COURT: SUSTAINED, AS PHRASED.
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. GIVEN YOUR LOCATION AT YOUR HOUSE, WOULD IT
HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO SEE SOMEBODY IN THAT
r 5
6
LOCATION?
A. MAYBE, YES.
r 7
8
Q. FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, IT'S DIRECTLY ACROSS THE
STREET FROM WHERE YOU WERE STANDING, CORRECT?
r 9
10
A. YES.
MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
r 12
13
RECROSS?
r 14
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
r 16
17
Q.
A.
MR. PUENTE, HOW MANY SHOTS DID YOU HEAR?
EXACTLY, I DON'T KNOW, BUT IT WAS MORE THAN
r 18 THREE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
COULD IT HAVE BEEN FIVE?
POSSIBLY.
r 21
22
Q. ABOUT HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FROM THE FIRST SHOT
TO THE LAST SHOT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THEY WERE ALL IN A ROW.
WAS IT A SOUND LIKE A MACHINE GUN OR WAS IT
r 25 SLOWER THAN THAT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
A REGULAR HANDGUN.
AND WHEN YOU HEARD THE SHOTS, WERE YOU STILL
r 28 SITTING WHEN YOU HEARD THE LAST SHOT?
r
249
1
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND SO YOU HEARD THE FIVE SHOTS -- YOU SAID 1
3 MORE THAN THREE?
4 A. MORE THAN THREE SHOTS. l
5 Q. -- MORE THAN THREE SHOTS WHILE SITTING,
6 CORRECT?
l
7
8
A. ALL THE SHOTS WERE RIGHT ONE AFTER ANOTHER, BUT
I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY THERE WERE.
l
9 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE HEARING THE SHOTS, DID YOU l
10 MAKE A COMMENT OR DISCUSS WHAT JUST HAPPENED WITH YOUR
11 BROTHER OR YOUR SON? l
12 A. NO. WE RAN OUT TO SEE.
13 Q. OKAY. AND IT WASN'T TILL AFTER THE SHOTS WERE l
14
15
ALREADY FIRED THAT YOU GOT OUT ONTO YOUR PORCH, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER.
l
17 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER.
18 THE WITNESS: THREE OR FOUR SECONDS. l
20 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MAY THIS WITNESS BE l
21 EXCUSED?
22 MR. TROCHA: YES.
l
23
24 COURT, SIR.
THE COURT: MR. PUENTE, THANK YOU FOR ATTENDING
YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE.
l
25 PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT WITH l
26 ANY OTHER WITNESS, OTHER THAN THE INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL
27 THE CASE IS OVER. OKAY? l
28 THE WITNESS: VERY WELL.
l
l
r 250
r 1 THE COURT: GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
r 2 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
r 3
4
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
MR. TROCHA.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE
r 5
6
CALL MAGDALENA LOPEZ.
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
r 7
8
THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE
r 9 TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO

10 HELP YOU GOD?
r 12
13
THE CLERK:
THE WITNESS STAND.
THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT
r 14
15 MA'AM.
THE COURT: UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE,
GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU.
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
GOOD AFTERNOON.
PLEASE BE SEATED.
r 18
19
THE CLERK: COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL
r 20 THE WITNESS: MAGDALENA LOPEZ, L-0-P-E-Z.
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY EXAMINE.
r 23
24
MAGDALENA LOPEZ,
r 25
26
PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN THROUGH
r 27 FOLLOWS:
r 28 Ill
r
251
l
l
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. LOPEZ.
4 A. GOOD AFTERNOON. l
5 Q. I'M GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT SOME EVENTS THAT
6 OCCURRED IN 2008. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT
l
7
8
WHERE YOU LIVED. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW YOUR ADDRESS OR
YOUR HOME OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE. WE'LL JUST TALK
l
9 ABOUT THE GENERAL LOCATION. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. I'M GOING TO START OFF BY SHOWING YOU WHAT'S l
12 BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2. IT DEPICTS A PARK
13 WITH SEVERAL STREETS THAT HAVE THE STREET NAMES DENOTED l
14
15
ON THEM.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION IN PEOPLE'S
l
16 EXHIBIT 2?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW THE NAME OF THE LOCATION OF l
19 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2?
20 A. WHICH ONE? l
21 Q. DO YOU KNOW -- THIS IS A PARK, CORRECT?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW THE NAME OF THIS PARK?
YES.
l
25 Q. WHAT IS IT? l
26 A. MOUNTAIN VIEW.
27 Q. NOW, AGAIN, I DON'T WANT YOU TO TELL US EXACTLY l
28 WHERE YOU WERE. WERE YOU LIVING NEXT TO THIS PARK BACK
l
l
[
252
r 1 IN 2008?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. WERE YOU LIVING ON THE EAST SIDE, THE NORTH
SIDE, THE WEST SIDE OR ANOTHER LOCATION?
A.
r 5
6 OCEAN VIEW?
I DON'T KNOW THE PARK, BECAUSE
BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE.
THAT'S THE
r 7
8
Q.
NEED TO
OKAY. IF YOU WANT TO GET DOWN TO SEE, IF YOU
r 9 THE COURT: MA'AM, PLEASE STEP DOWN AND WALK UP
r 10
11
TO THE MAP, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
STAND, AS YOU NEED TO, TO BE ABLE TO SEE.

JURORS, FEEL FREE TO
12 THE WITNESS: THESE ARE THE TREES, RIGHT?

r 13 THESE ARE THE BATHROOMS. WHERE I LIVE WAS TOWARDS THE
r 14
15
RIGHT.
MR. TROCHA: OKAY. THANK YOU.
17 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR, THE
r 18 WITNESS INDICATED THIS CLUMP HERE AS BEING THE TREES,
r 19
20
THIS SMALL BUILDING AS BEING THE BATHROOMS.
r 21
22
JUROR NO. 9:
SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

WHICH WAY IS THE RIGHT? I'M
r 23
24
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
ON THE DIAGRAM.
r 25
26
Q.
THE PARK?
FROM WHERE YOU WERE LIVING, COULD YOU SEE INTO
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. COULD YOU SEE THE ENTIRE PARK FROM WHERE YOU
r
253
1
l
1 WERE LIVING?
2 A. YOU CAN ONLY SEE ONE PART OF IT. l
3 Q. WHAT PART COULD YOU SEE?
4 A. WHERE THE BATHROOMS ARE AND THE TREES. l
5 Q. COULD YOU SEE THIS SECTION OF IT FROM IT, OR
6 THE LOWER SECTION?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
OVER THERE.
IF YOU COULD, COME DOWN AND SHOW US THE SECTION
l
9 YOU COULD SEE. l
10 THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS WHAT PART OF THE
11 PARK COULD SHE SEE? l
12 MR. TROCHA: WHAT PART OF THE PARK COULD SHE
13 SEE. l
14
15
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. AND YOU'VE INDICATED THE SECTION OF THE PARK
l
16 FROM THE BATHROOMS TO FRANKLIN AVENUE?
l
17 A. YES.
19 MR. TROCHA: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT.
20 FOR THOSE WHO COULDN'T SEE, FROM THE BATHROOMS l
21 DOWN TO FRANKLIN AVENUE IS THE SECTION SHE INDICATED SHE
22 COULD SEE.
l
23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. GOING BACK TO 2008, WAS THERE A FIGHT IN THE
l
25 PARK THAT YOU SAW PART OF? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. BEFORE THAT FIGHT, WERE YOU AT YOUR HOME THAT l
28 NIGHT?
l
l
r 254
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. WHERE WERE YOU THAT NIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I WAS AT MY BROTHER'S HOUSE.
WERE YOU WITH ANYBODY ELSE WHILE YOU WERE AT
r 5
6
YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE?
A. YES. MY FAMILY.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE WAS WITH YOU?
MY SISTER, MY OTHER DAUGHTER, AND MY OLDEST
r 9
10
DAUGHTER ALSO.
Q. AFTER LEAVING THIS FAMILY GATHERING, DID YOU
r 11 COME HOME?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
IN ORDER TO GET FROM WHERE YOU WERE TO YOUR
r 14
15
HOME, DID YOU HAVE TO DRIVE PAST MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q. WHO WAS IN THE CAR WITH YOU AS YOU DROVE PAST
MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
r 18 A. MY SISTER, MY DAUGHTERS AND MYSELF.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE A DAUGHTER NAMED JESSICA?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WAS SHE WITH YOU IN THE CAR AT THIS TIME?
YES.
r 23
24
Q. AS YOU PASSED BY THE PARK, DID YOU SEE ANYBODY
IN THE PARK?
r 25 A.
Q.
YES.
COULD YOU TELL US WHO YOU SAW IN THE PARK AND
r
26
27 WHAT THEY WERE DOING?
r 28 A. I ONLY SAW SOME YOUNG MEN -- I DIDN'T SEE WHAT
r
r 254
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q.
A.
WHERE WERE YOU THAT NIGHT?
I WAS AT MY BROTHER'S HOUSE.
r
3
4 Q. WERE YOU WITH ANYBODY ELSE WHILE YOU WERE AT
r 5
6
YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE?
A. YES. MY FAMILY.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE WAS WITH YOU?
MY SISTER, MY OTHER DAUGHTER, AND MY OLDEST
r 9
10
DAUGHTER ALSO.
Q. AFTER LEAVING THIS FAMILY GATHERING, DID YOU
r 11 COME HOME?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
IN ORDER TO GET FROM WHERE YOU WERE TO YOUR
r 14
15
HOME, DID YOU HAVE TO DRIVE PAST MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q. WHO WAS IN THE CAR WITH YOU AS YOU DROVE PAST
MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
r 18 A. MY SISTER, MY DAUGHTERS AND MYSELF.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE A DAUGHTER NAMED JESSICA?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WAS SHE WITH YOU IN THE CAR AT THIS TIME?
YES.
r 23
24
Q. AS YOU PASSED BY THE PARK, DID YOU SEE ANYBODY
IN THE PARK?
r 25 A. YES.
COULD YOU TELL US WHO YOU SAW IN THE PARK AND
r
26 Q.
27 WHAT THEY WERE DOING?
r 28 A. I ONLY SAW SOME YOUNG MEN -- I DIDN'T SEE WHAT
r
255
,
1 COLOR, WHAT AGES -- STANDING IN THE PARK.
l
2 Q. WHERE IN THE PARK WERE THEY STANDING? l
3 A. IN THE BEGINNING, I DON'T REMEMBER IF THEY WERE
4 BY THE BATHROOMS TO THE SIDE. AND AFTER, THEY WERE BY l
5 THE TREES THAT I POINTED TO.
6 Q. NOW, THE TIME WHEN YOU WERE IN THE CAR WHEN YOU
l
~
7 WERE DRIVING HOME
J
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHILE YOU WERE IN THE CAR, DRIVING HOME, WERE l
10 THEY BOTH BY THE BATHROOMS AND BY THE TREES OR WERE
11 THERE TWO GROUPS? l
12 A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY IF THERE WAS TWO
13 GROUPS, IF THERE WAS SOME OVER HERE. I DON'T KNOW. l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU COULD SEE THESE MEN, THOUGH, IN THE PARK?
YES.
l
16 Q. IS IT UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE -- WHAT TIME OF NIGHT
l
17 WAS THIS?
18 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS 8:40 OR EIGHT SOMETHING. l
19 I DON'T REMEMBER.
20 Q. THIS WAS AT NIGHT? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WAS IT UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE TO BE IN THE PARK AT
l
23
24
THAT TIME OF NIGHT?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. WHEN YOU GOT HOME, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT? l
26 A. I GOT THERE AND WE STARTED WATCHING TV.
27 Q. FROM YOUR HOME -- DOES YOUR HOME FACE THE PARK l
28 AS YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED?
l
l
256
1 A. YES.
f'!l1IJ
I 2 Q. IF YOU WERE TO OPEN UP YOUR FRONT DOOR, COULD
3 YOU SEE THE PARK?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. AT SOME POINT WHILE YOU WERE HOME, WAS YOUR
i
6 ATTENTION DRAWN TO EVENTS OCCURRING IN THE PARK?
~
I
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING AT THE TIME?
!1%l
I
9 A. I HAD JUST GOTTEN HOME. I TURNED THE TV ON. I
10 TOOK THE TRASH OUT. WHEN I TOOK THE TRASH OUT, I HEARD
r 11 SOMEBODY STARTED SCREAMING.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHERE WERE THESE SCREAMS COMING FROM?
FROM THE PARK.
r 14
15
Q. THE SCREAMS, COULD YOU DETERMINE IF IT WAS A
MAN OR A WOMAN?
r 16
17
A. MEN.
WHAT KIND OF SCREAMS WERE THESE?
r
Q.
18 A. FIGHTING.
r 19
20
Q. WHEN YOU HEARD THESE SCREAMS, DID YOU LOOK IN
THE DIRECTION THEY WERE COMING FROM?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND WHAT DID YOU SEE?
r 23
24
A. WELL, I SAW -- LIKE I SAID, I WENT TO THROW THE
TRASH OUT, AND THAT'S WHEN I HEARD THE SCREAMING, AND I
r 25 SAW THAT THERE WAS ARGUING.
r
26 Q. THIS WAS FROM PEOPLE IN THE PARK?
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE ARGUING?
r
257
1 A. TWO.
2 Q. WAS IT ONE PERSON AND ANOTHER PERSON ARGUING
3 WITH EACH OTHER?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. COULD YOU HEAR WHAT THEY WERE ARGUING ABOUT?
6 A. NO.
7 Q. WERE THEY TALKING IN TONES LIKE WE ARE OR
8 LOUDER?
9 A. LOUDER.
10 Q. WAS THIS JUST YELLING AT THIS POINT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. AT SOME POINT DID THIS TURN PHYSICAL? ,.,
13
14
15
A.
Q.
REGARD.
YES.
COULD YOU TELL US WHAT YOU WITNESSED IN THAT , l
16 A. I SAW WHEN THEY WERE ARGUING, THEN I SAW WHEN

17 ONE WAS HITTING ANOTHER ONE, A YOUNG MAN OR A MAN, I
18 DON'T KNOW.
'ij
19 Q. THIS MAN THAT WAS HITTING THE OTHER ONE, COULD
20 YOU DESCRIBE HIM FOR THE JURY? 1
21 A. IT WAS A PERSON THAT WASN'T VERY TALL BUT
22 WASN'T VERY SHORT.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE THEY WEARING?
I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE PERSON WAS WEARING.
l
25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER IF THEY WERE IN A LIGHT COLOR l
26 OR A DARK COLOR?
27 A. DARK, BECAUSE YOU COULDN'T SEE. l
28 Q. COULD YOU SEE ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THIS PERSON,
l
l
258
1 SUCH AS IF THEY WERE BALD OR THEY HAD HAIR?

r
I
l 2 A. NO.
3 Q. THIS PERSON, WERE THEY FAT? WERE THEY THIN?
4 SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE?
r 5
6
A.
EITHER.
SOMEWHAT IN THE MIDDLE, BECAUSE HE WASN'T FAT
7 Q. THIS PERSON WEARING THE DARK CLOTHING, WHAT
8 WERE THEY DOING TO THE OTHER PERSON?
r 9 A. HITTING.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
HOW WAS HE HITTING HIM?
I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS WITH THE HANDS OR
r 12
13
WITH THE FEET.
Q. WAS THE PERSON STANDING UP -- LET ME START
r 14
15
OVER.
WAS THE PERSON THAT WAS GETTING HIT, WERE THEY
r 16 STANDING UP AT THE TIME?
r
17 A. NO.
18 Q. HOW WERE THEY? WERE THEY SITTING? LYING?
r 19
20
KNEELING?
A. LAYING DOWN ON THE GRASS.
r 21
22
Q.
BACK?
COULD YOU SEE IF HE WAS ON HIS CHEST OR ON HIS
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
THE PERSON THAT WAS DOING THE HITTING, WERE
r 25 THEY STANDING UP OR HOW WERE THEY POSITIONED WITH THIS
r
26 OTHER MAN?
27 A. YES, STANDING.
r 28 Q. WAS HE OVER HIM?
r
259
1 A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
2 Q. WAS HE -- DID HE HAVE TO PUNCH DOWNWARDS OR HIT
3 DOWNWARDS?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU SAW THIS, WAS IT STILL
6 JUST ONE PERSON HITTING ANOTHER PERSON ON THE GROUND?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WAS THE PERSON ON THE GROUND FIGHTING BACK?
9
10
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT WAS THE PERSON ON THE GROUND DOING?
,
11
12
13
A.
Q.
JUST LAYING THERE.
WAS HE COVERING HIMSELF OR TRYING TO GET AWAY
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
,
I
14
15
A.
I WAS.
YOU COULDN'T TELL. YOU COULDN'T SEE FROM WHERE
1
16 Q. DID THIS ALL OCCUR IN ONE LOCATION AS YOU'RE
l
17
18
WATCHING IT, MEANING, WERE THEY MOVING THROUGHOUT THE
PARK OR WERE THEY JUST STAYING IN THIS ONE LOCATION?
,
1
19 A. NO. IN ONE SAME PLACE.

20 Q. HOW LONG DID THIS BEATING TAKE PLACE?
21 A. TEN MINUTES, FIVE. I DON'T REMEMBER.
22 Q. DID YOU CALL TO YOUR DAUGHTER AT ALL TO COME
1
23
24
OUT AND WATCH OR DRAW HER ATTENTION TO THIS?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. DID ANYBODY ELSE COME OVER TO THESE TWO MEN l
26 THROUGHOUT THIS TIME?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. WHEN DID THIS OCCUR?
l
l
~
I
260
~
I
1 A. WHEN THE YOUNG MAN WAS LAYING ON THE GROUND,

r
i
2 THE OTHER PERSON LEFT, WALKED UP THE HILL AND TWO OTHER
~
3 PEOPLE CAME.
I
4 Q. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THESE TWO OTHER PEOPLE CAME?
5 A. THEY ALSO HIT THE MAN, YOUNG MAN, I DON'T KNOW.
6 Q. THESE TWO OTHER PEOPLE, WERE THEY MEN OR WOMEN?
7 A. WELL, THEY LOOKED LIKE A MALE BODY.
8 Q. AND COULD YOU DESCRIBE ANYTHING ABOUT THEM,
r 9 SUCH AS WHAT THEY WERE WEARING?
r 10
11
A.
T-SHIRT.
YES. THEY WERE TALLER. ONE HAD A WHITE
THE OTHER ONE HAD DARK CLOTHING. I DON'T
12 KNOW.
r 13 Q. WERE ANY OF THEM -- COULD YOU SEE THEIR BUILD?
r 14
15
WERE THEY THIN, FAT, OR SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE?
A. ONE WAS A LITTLE BIT CHUBBIER, AND THE OTHER
r 16
17
ONE WASN'T EITHER FAT OR THIN.
Q. AND YOU SAID THESE PEOPLE ALSO BEAT THE SAME
r 18 PERSON?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DID THEY GO ABOUT DOING THAT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THE SAME. WITH THEIR FEET.
WAS THE PERSON THAT WAS BEING HIT STILL LYING
r 23
24
ON THE GROUND?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. THE TWO MEN THAT JOINED IN, WERE THEY
r 26
27
STANDING?
A. YES.
28 Q. SO IN ORDER TO -- DID THEY HAVE TO STRIKE DOWN
r
r
261
1 IN ORDER TO HIT HIM?.

2 A. YES.
3 Q. AND YOU SAID THESE MEN WERE DOING THIS WHILE
4 THE OTHER MAN WALKED TO ANOTHER LOCATION?
5 A. YES, UPWARDS.
6 Q. HOW LONG DID THESE TWO MEN DO THIS TO THIS BOY?
7 A. A SHORT TIME. IT WASN'T VERY LONG. FIVE
8 MINUTES. I DON'T REMEMBER.
9 Q. DID YOU SEE THE BEATING STOP?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. HOW DID THE BEATING STOP?
12 A. THEY WEREN'T HITTING HIM ANYMORE, BUT THEY
13 PICKED HIM UP.
1 1
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW DID THEY PICK HIM UP?
I DON'T KNOW IF THEY GRABBED HIM BY HERE. I
l
16 DON'T KNOW.
l
17
18
Q.
GRABBED?
AND YOU INDICATED YOUR ARMS FOR WHERE THEY
, J
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT DID THEY DO WITH THIS PERSON AFTER THEY l
21 PICKED HIM UP?
22 A. THEY PICKED HIM UP AND THEY TOOK HIM UP TO
l
23 WHERE THE OTHER MAN HAD WALKED UP TO.
l .i
24 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AT THIS LOCATION?

25 A. THEY LET GO OF HIM THERE AND THE YOUNG MAN WAS l
26 AGAIN LAYING THERE.
27 Q. NOW, WE HAVE THE THREE MEN: THE ORIGINAL l
28 BEATER IN THE DARK, THE ONE IN THE WHITE, AND THE SECOND
l
l
r
262
1 ONE THAT WAS IN THE DARK CLOTHES WITH THE ONE IN THE
r 2 WHITE.
3 WHAT DID YOU SEE THESE THREE MEN DO AFTER THE
4 BOY WAS TAKEN TO THE TOP OF THE PARK?
r 5
6
A. THE ONES THAT TOOK HIM UP, THEY MOVED A LITTLE
BIT CLOSER TO WHERE THE TREES ARE. AND THE ONE THAT WAS
7 HITTING HIM ORIGINALLY, OR FIRST, CAME BACK.
8 Q. WERE THEY ALL TOGETHER IN THIS GROUP?
r 9 A. AT ONE POINT, YES. BUT THE OTHER ONES MOVED A
r 10
11
LITTLE FURTHER AWAY.
Q. HOW LONG WERE THESE PEOPLE TOGETHER?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
A FEW MINUTES, YES. I DIDN'T NOTICE.
WHAT DID THESE THREE MEN APPEAR TO BE DOING AT
r 14
15
THIS TIME?
A. MAYBE TALKING. FROM THE PLACE THAT THEY MOVED
r 16
17
FROM, I COULDN'T -- I WASN'T ABLE TO --
Q. COULD YOU HEAR WHAT WAS GOING ON?
r 18 A. NO, NOT ANYMORE.
r 19
20
Q. BUT THESE PEOPLE WERE IN A SMALL GROUP FOR
SEVERAL MINUTES?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
r 23
24
A. NEXT, THE YOUNG MAN WAS BY HIMSELF WITH THE
OTHER MAN, AND I THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO LEAVE
r 25 HIM THERE, WHEN THE FIRST PERSON THAT HIT HIM PULLED
r 26
27
HIS -- RAISED HIS HAND, LOWERED IT, AND HE LOOKS LIKE HE
WAS POINTING, AND I SAID, "OH, MY GOD." YOU COULDN'T
r 28 SEE WHAT WAS IN THE HAND BECAUSE IT WAS DARK WHEN HE
r
263
1 FIRED. THEN I REALIZED IT WAS A GUN.

2 Q. COULD YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. COULD YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT ALSO INDICATED TO
5 YOU A GUN WAS FIRED? mm,
I
6 A. YES.
~
7 Q. WHAT COULD YOU SEE? I
8 A. WHEN THE HAND WAS RAISED AND THE SHOT, I HEARD
9 IT.
10 Q. COULD YOU SEE ANY FIRE OR DISCHARGE FROM THE
11
12
13
GUN?
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT COULD YOU SEE IN THAT REGARD?
, J
14 A. WELL, LIKE WHEN THERE'S SHOTS WHERE YOU CAN SEE

15
16
THE
Q.
I DON'T KNOW, THE FIRE. I DON'T KNOW.
DID A FIRE APPEAR TO COME FROM A PERSON'S HAND
,
,
)
17 AT THE SAME TIME YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOT?

18 A. YES. l
19 Q. NOW, HOW MANY SHOTS DID YOU SEE AND HEAR?
20 A. I SAW ONE, BUT THEN I WENT INSIDE AND I HEARD l
21 TWO MORE.
l
22
23
Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY, TOTAL, YOU HEARD
THROUGHOUT THAT NIGHT?
, J
24 A. THREE SHOTS, I THINK.
25 Q. NOW, GETTING BACK TO WHERE WE HAVE THIS GROUP l
26 OF MEN AND THEN THE SHOOTING THAT FOLLOWS, WHO WAS THE
27 MAN YOU BELIEVE DID THE SHOOTING? l
28 A. THE FIRST ONE.
l
l
264
F
i
1 Q. THE ONE THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THE ARGUMENT?

~
l 2 A. YES.
3 Q. THE ONE THAT WAS HITTING THE PERSON WHILE THEY
4 WERE ON THE GROUND?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU SEE THIS PERSON BREAK AWAY FROM THIS
r 7 GROUP THAT YOU SAW EARLIER AND THEN GO BACK TO THE BOY
8 AT THE TOP OF THE HILL?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
AND THIS WAS RIGHT BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
YES.
12 Q. NOW, WHAT IS -- ONCE THE FIRST SHOT WAS FIRED,

r 13 YOU SAID YOU RAN INTO YOUR HOUSE.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU CONTINUE TO WATCH ANYTHING FROM INSIDE
r 16
17
YOUR HOUSE IN REGARDS TO WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE PARK?
A. NO.
r 18 Q. AT SOME POINT YOU CAME BACK OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE,
19 THOUGH, CORRECT?
r 20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. WHEN YOU DID THIS, WERE THE POLICE THERE OR WAS
THIS BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED?
r 23
24
A. WHEN I CAME OUT AGAIN, THAT'S WHEN THE PATROL
CAR WAS ARRIVING BY THE PARK.
r 25 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, SHOULD WE TAKE A BREAK
26 NOW?
r 27 THE COURT: YES. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S
28 TAKE THE MID-AFTERNOON RECESS. PLEASE LEAVE THE

r
r
265
1 NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE

2 ADMONITION. WE WILL RECONVENE AT 15 MINUTES AFTER THE
3 HOUR OF THREE. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
4 (MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.)

6 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
7 THE COURT: LET'S GO ON THE RECORD, PLEASE.
8 THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST

~
9 FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
,
I
10 PRESENT. NO MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. WE'RE

I
11 STILL ON OUR MID-AFTERNOON RECESS. i
12 MR. TROCHA?
13 MR. TROCHA: WE'D ASK THAT NATALIE ELIAS AND l
14
15
EDUARDO PUENTE BE ORDERED BACK TO COURT AT 9:00 TOMORROW
MORNING, AS WELL AS MR. EDUARDO PUENTE HAS AN
l
16 OUTSTANDING WARRANT. WE'D ASK THAT THAT WARRANT BE
l
17
18
RECALLED.
THE COURT: MA'AM, ARE YOU NATALIE ELIAS?

, 1
19 MS. ELIAS: YES, SIR.
20 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. l

21 SIR, ARE YOU EDUARDO PUENTE?
22 MR. PUENTE: YEAH.
l
23
24
THE COURT:
MR. PUENTE:
DO YOU BOTH SPEAK ENGLISH?
YEAH, BUT I NEED AN INTERPRETER.
1
25 IT'S BETTER FOR ME. l
26 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE HAVE AN INTERPRETER
27 TO ASSIST YOU RIGHT NOW. l
28 MR. PUENTE, I HAVE A WARRANT OUT FOR YOUR
l
l
~
r
:
266
1 ARREST FOR NOT COMING TO COURT. I'M GOING TO RECALL
r 2 THAT WARRANT AND ORDER YOU TO COME TO THIS VERY

3 COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT
4 LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY, AT 9:00 TOMORROW MORNING.
r 5
6
IF YOU ARE NOT HERE, THAT WARRANT WILL GO OUT
AND WE WILL HOLD YOU IN JAIL UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER. DO
~
I
:
7 YOU UNDERSTAND?
8 MR. PUENTE: YES.
r 9 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MS. ELIAS, THE SAME

10 ORDER APPLIES TO YOU. THERE IS NO WARRANT OUT FOR YOU.
r 11 IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP TOMORROW, THERE WILL BE A WARRANT
12 OUT FOR YOU. YOU'RE ORDERED TO COME BACK TO THIS
r 13 COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48, AT 9:00 A.M. TOMORROW MORNING.
r 14
15
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
MS. ELIAS: YES, SIR.
r 16
17
THE COURT:
MR. PUENTE IS RECALLED.
THANK YOU. THE BENCH WARRANT AS TO
r 18 MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.

r 20 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
21 THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS
r 22 HAVE ENTERED THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
r 23
24
IN THE COURTROOM.
STAND.
MS. LOPEZ HAS RESUMED THE WITNESS
r 25
26
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION.
r 27 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. MS. LOPEZ, I ONLY HAVE A FEW MORE QUESTIONS
r
267
1 REGARDING THIS DIAGRAM.

2 DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE DRAWING UPON THIS
3 DIAGRAM WHERE YOU'VE DESCRIBED SEEING THE EVENTS THAT ~
I
4 YOU'VE DESCRIBED?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A -- IF YOU COME DOWN
7 HERE, WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE INTERPRETER, I'M GOING
8 TO HAND YOU A BLACK MARKER. AND FOR NOW JUST
9 CONCENTRATE ON THE RIGHT LOCATIONS, AND WE'LL BE ABLE TO
10 DESCRIBE THEM FOR THE JURY AFTER YOU TAKE THE WITNESS
11 STAND.
12 MS. LOPEZ, THE FIRST THING I WANT YOU TO DO IS
13 I WANT YOU TO PUT THE LETTER V WHERE YOU FIRST SAW THE l
14 MAN THAT WAS GETTING HIT AND BEATEN, WHERE HE WAS LYING ~
J
15 DOWN DURING THIS TIME.
16 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, WHAT DIAGRAM IS THIS?
l
17 MR. TROCHA: I'M SORRY. THIS IS PEOPLE'S
18 EXHIBIT 2 AGAIN, YOUR HONOR. l
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. YOU'VE DRAWN THE LETTER W. THAT'S FINE. l
21 NOW, THERE WAS A SECOND LOCATION WHERE THIS
22 PERSON WAS, AS YOU DESCRIBED, CARRIED TO. IF YOU COULD,
l
23
24
MARK THAT LOCATION WITH A W AND PUT THE NUMBER 2 NEXT TO
IT. COULD YOU MAKE A LITTLE BIGGER W AND PUT THE NUMBER
l
25 2 NEXT TO IT. AND YOU'VE DONE SO. l
26 AND LASTLY, MS. LOPEZ, IF YOU COULD, PUT THREE
27 BLACK DOTS IN THE LOCATION WHERE YOU SAW THE THREE MEN l
28 GROUP UP RIGHT BEFORE THE SHOOTING.
l
l
F
!
268
~
i
i
1 DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. OKAY. IF YOU COULD DO THAT. AND YOU HAVE DONE
4 THAT JUST TO THE LEFT OF THEW ON THE DIAGRAM. OKAY.
r 5
6
AND, IF YOU COULD, HAVE A SEAT BACK ON THE
WITNESS STAND, AND I CAN DESCRIBE WHAT YOU'VE DRAWN.
7 FOR THE RECORD, ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, LOOKING
8 IN THE PARK ON WHAT WOULD BE THE NORTHWEST CORNER, THERE
r 9 IS A BLACK W INDICATING THE INITIAL LOCATION

10 MS. LOPEZ -- MS. MAGDALENA LOPEZ SAW THE FIRST BEATING
r 11 TAKE PLACE. SHE HAS THEN DRAWN A W2 JUST AROUND THE
r 12
13
PERIMETER OF THE RED CIRCLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK,
INDICATING THAT IS THE SECOND LOCATION WHERE THE BOY OR
r 14
15
THE VICTIM WAS DRAGGED TO.
JUST TO THE LEFT OF THAT W THERE ARE THREE
r 16
17
BLACK DOTS INDICATING THE LOCATION WHERE THE THREE
PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE BEATING GROUPED UP BEFORE THE
r 18
19
SHOOTING.
r 20 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 21
22
Q. FINALLY, MS. LOPEZ, DID YOU CALL 911 DURING
THIS INCIDENT?
r 23
24
A. I TOLD MY DAUGHTER FOR HER TO CALL.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.
r 26
27
r 28 Ill
r
269
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. LOPEZ.
5 Q. THIS INCIDENT HAPPENED SEPTEMBER 13, 2008,
6 CORRECT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. SINCE THAT DATE, DO YOU THINK YOUR MEMORY HAS
~
9 BEEN AFFECTED AS TO WHAT YOU CAN RECALL? i
10 A. YES.
11 Q. MS. LOPEZ, THE NIGHT THAT THIS HAPPENED, CAN
12 YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING IN THE PARK?
1 1
13 A. THERE WAS NO LIGHT WHERE THE TREES ARE, ONLY BY
14
15
THE BATHROOMS IN THE FRONT TOWARDS THE STREET.
Q. THE TIME OF NIGHT THIS HAPPENED, WAS IT AFTER
l
16 9:00?
l
17
18
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT TIME WAS IT?
, j
19 A. BETWEEN EIGHT AND NINE.

20 Q. WAS IT CLOSER TO EIGHT OR CLOSER TO NINE? 1
21 A. CLOSER TO NINE.
22 Q. WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE GROUP OF MEN, YOU
l
23 COULDN'T SEE ANY OF THEIR FACES, COULD YOU?
1
24
25
A.
Q.
NO.
MS. LOPEZ, I COULDN'T HELP BUT NOTICE WHEN YOU
, )
26 TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT YOU HAD TROUBLE SEEING THE

27 EXHIBIT, CORRECT? l
28 A. SINCE IT WAS NIGHTTIME, I CAN'T SEE.
l
l
r 270
r 1 Q. MS. LOPEZ, I'M TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW.
r 2 ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE SEEING THE EXHIBIT?

A.
r 3
4 DRAWING.
IT'S JUST THAT I CAN'T LOCATE THE PLACES IN THE
r 5
6
Q.
THIS NIGHT,
ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN THE SHOOTING OCCURRED ON
IT WAS COMPLETELY DARK, WAS IT NOT? THE SUN
r
I
7 HAD ALREADY WENT DOWN?
8 A. YES, IT WAS DARK.
r 9 Q. AND YOU COULDN'T SEE -- WHEN YOU SAW THE PERSON
r
10 DOING THE INITIAL BEATING, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO TELL WHAT
11 HE WAS WEARING, WERE YOU?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
ALL RIGHT.
r 14
15
CAN I ENTER THE WELL, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY. YOU DON'T NEED TO MAKE A
r 16 RECORD OF IT.
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. IT'S A HABIT.
r 18 THE COURT: OLD HABITS.
r 20 Q. POINTING TO WHERE THE PARK MEETS FRANKLIN
r 21
22
AVENUE ON EXHIBIT 2, MS. LOPEZ, DID YOU SEE ANY CARS
PARKED ON THE STREET HERE?
r 23
24
A.
ARRIVED.
I DID NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THE CARS WHEN I
r 25 Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU SAY WHEN YOU ARRIVED. THAT IS
r 26
27
BECAUSE YOU HAD COME HOME ABOUT 20 MINUTES BEFORE THE
SHOOTING?
r 28 A. YES, MORE OR LESS ABOUT THAT TIME.
r
271
1 Q. IS THAT A GOOD ESTIMATE, OR WOULD YOU PUT A

2 DIFFERENT NUMBER ON IT?
3 A. I WOULD SAY 10 MINUTES. WHEN I GOT THERE, THEN
4 IT HAPPENED.
l
5 Q. SO YOU HAD ONLY BEEN HOME FOR ABOUT 10 MINUTES
6 BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
7 A. YES. 1
I
8 Q. AT ANY TIME DID YOU SEE ANY MEN WALK UP THE
9
10
11
HILL, INDICATING THIS HILL IN FRONT OF FRANKLIN, NORTH
OF WHERE YOU DREW THE W, WHICH IS BELOW IT ON THE
DIAGRAM -- DID YOU AT ANY POINT SEE ANY MEN WALK UP THE
, j
12 HILL?
l
13
14
15
A.
Q.
NO, I DID NOT SEE THEM WALKING.
ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU WERE TALKING ON DIRECT
ABOUT A FIGHT YOU SAW IN THE PARK WITHIN THAT 10
, j
16
17
MINUTES.
DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER FIGHTS GOING ON IN THE
l
18 PARK BESIDES THE ONE YOU TESTIFIED TO? l
19 A. NO.
l
20
21
22
Q. MS. LOPEZ, POINTING ON PEOPLE'S 2, THE ALLEY
BETWEEN THE HOUSES AND FRANKLIN, CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE
LIGHTING IN THAT AREA?
, J
23
24 ON.
A. IT'S DARK THERE. THERE IS LIGHT, BUT IT WASN'T
l
25 Q. DID YOU SEE A CAR OR MOTORCYCLE OR ANYTHING l
26 PARKED IN THE ALLEY BEHIND THE TREES WHERE I'M
27 INDICATING ON EXHIBIT 2 WITH MY PEN? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
~
I
I
272
r 1 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE, TOTAL, DID YOU SEE IN THE
r 2
3
PARK?
A. I'M NOT SURE IF THERE WAS SIX OR SEVEN. I'M
4 NOT SURE.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
SO YOU ONLY SAW SIX OR SEVEN PEOPLE?
UH-HUH, YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE ANY WOMEN IN THE PARK?
NO.
r 9 Q.
A.
SO THE SIX OR SEVEN PEOPLE WERE ALL MEN?
FROM FAR AWAY THEY LOOKED LIKE MEN, BUT I DON'T
r
10
11 KNOW IF THEY WERE ALL MEN.
r 12
13
Q. ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU WERE -- YOUR VIEW OF
WHAT WAS GOING ON WAS SUCH THAT YOU COULDN'T TELL THE
r 14
15
GENDER OF THE PEOPLE YOU WERE SEEING?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q. MS. LOPEZ, WHEN YOU SAW THESE -- THIS FIGHT
GOING ON, DID YOU SEE ANY OF THE ASSAILANTS TAKE OFF A
r 18 PAIR OF GLOVES AND HAND THEM TO ONE OF THE OTHER
r 19
20
ASSAILANTS?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE WATCHING
THE FIGHT OR PRESENT IN THE PARK DURING THE FIGHT TAKE
r 23
24
OFF A PAIR OF GLOVES AND HAND THEM TO ANY OF THE
ASSAILANTS?
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE ANY GLOVES AT ALL?
NO.
r 28 Q. SO LET'S GO THROUGH THIS CHRONOLOGICALLY.
r
273
1
2
WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED HOME, YOU SAW SOME MEN
IN THE PARK NEAR THE BATHROOMS, CORRECT?
, i
3 A. YES.
l
I
4 Q. INDICATING ON PEOPLE'S 2 WITH MY PEN, WHAT I'M
5 TRACING IS A SIDEWALK THAT RUNS THROUGH THE PARK, ~I
6 CORRECT?
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. AND THE BATHROOMS IS THE BUILDING JUST TO WHAT
~
,
9 WOULD BE THE RIGHT OR THE WEST OF THE SIDEWALK, I
10 CORRECT?
11 A. YES. i
12 Q. IS THAT WHERE YOU SAW THOSE MEN AT FIRST?

13 A. YES.
1 I
14
15
Q.
PARK?
AT THIS POINT DID YOU SEE ANY FIGHTING IN THE
l
16 A. NO.
l
17 Q. AND IT WASN'T UNTIL YOU TOOK OUT THE TRASH THAT
l
18
19
YOU SAW THE FIGHTING, CORRECT?
A. YES. ,
20
21
22
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAW THE FIGHTING, IT WAS BY, ON
PEOPLE'S 2, THE TREES THAT I'M INDICATING THAT ARE JUST,
ON THE EXHIBIT, TO THE RIGHT OF THE ALLEY, CORRECT?
, J
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND AT SOME POINT DID YOU LOOK AWAY?
1
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE FIGHTING, IT WAS JUST
27 ONE PERSON DOING THE FIGHTING, CORRECT? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 274
r 1 Q. AND YOU COULDN'T SEE HIS FACE?
r 2
3
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING A WHITE T-SHIRT?

F'
1.
4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WAS THIS PERSON WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT?
YES.
r 7
8
Q. AND YOU THOUGHT THAT THE PERSON WEARING THE
WHITE T-SHIRT EXCUSE ME. LET ME WITHDRAW AND I'LL
r 9
10
REPHRASE IT.
WHEN YOU FINALLY DID SEE THE SHOOTING, YOU

r 11 BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON DOING THE SHOOTING WAS THE
r 12
13
PERSON WHO DID THE BEATING, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. IS THAT BECAUSE THE PERSON WHO WAS DOING THE
SHOOTING WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT?
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
TESTIMONY.
OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE
r 18 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER.
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
THE ONE THAT DID THE SHOOTING?
r 21
22
Q. IS THAT THE ANSWER, MS. LOPEZ, OR ARE YOU
ASKING ME A QUESTION?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO. WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION?
LET ME REPHRASE.
r 25 YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE FIRST ASSAILANT WAS
r 26
27
WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT, RIGHT?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. MISSTATES HER
r 28 TESTIMONY.
r
275
2
THE COURT: OVERRULED. LET'S ASK HER AGAIN.
WAS THE FIRST MAN WHO WAS FIGHTING WITH THIS
, j
3 PERSON, DID HE HAVE ON A WHITE T-SHIRT?

4 THE WITNESS: NO.
6 Q. WHO WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT?
~
7 A. ONE OF THE TWO PERSONS THAT ARRIVED AFTERWARDS. 1
\
8 Q. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
~
9 GIVE ME ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR. SORRY.
,
!
10 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.

r
11 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI: J
12 Q. AT SOME POINT IN TIME -- YOU TESTIFIED THAT

13 AFTER THE FIRST ASSAILANT ATTACKED THE VICTIM AND OTHER
l
14 PEOPLE JOINED IN, AT SOME POINT THEY STOPPED, CORRECT?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. AT THE TIME THEY STOPPED, WERE YOU WATCHING?
l
18 Q. OKAY. SO YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY WERE l
19 DOING AFTER THEY HAD STOPPED BEATING UP THE VICTIM?
l
20
21
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY WERE TALKING TO EACH , J
22 OTHER OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE, CORRECT?
23
24
A. NO, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SEE, I TELL YOU; YOU
CAN'T SEE FROM THERE.
1
25 Q. OKAY. SO WHEN THE THREE PEOPLE STOPPED BEATING l
26 UP THE VICTIM, AFTER THAT YOU COULDN'T SEE THEM,
~
27 CORRECT? j
I
28 A. THE THREE? YES. THE REST, NO.

l
,
r 276
r 1 Q. WHAT WERE THE THREE DOING?
r 2 A. I DON'T KNOW.
OKAY. THANK YOU.
I COULDN'T TELL.
r 3
4
Q.
MS. LOPEZ, YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT THAT YOU SAW

THE TWO MEN DRAG THE VICTIM UP THE HILL, CORRECT?
r 5
6 A. YES, YES.
r 7
8
Q. YOU GAVE A STATEMENT TO A DETECTIVE ANGELICA
NAVARRO IN THIS CASE, DIDN'T YOU?
r 9 A. YES.
10 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING HER THAT YOU SAW THE
r 11 VICTIM LYING ON THE GROUND NEAR THE TOP OF THE GRASSY
12 KNOLL AND YOU WERE CONFUSED AS TO HOW THE VICTIM HAD
r 13 GOTTEN THERE AND THOUGHT THE MALES MAY HAVE DRAGGED HIM
r 14
15
THERE?
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING DETECTIVE NAVARRO THAT?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 16
17
Q. MS. LOPEZ, THE INTERVIEW YOU GAVE TO DETECTIVE
NAVARRO, THAT WAS THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, WAS IT NOT?
r 18 A. YES.
19 Q. IF YOU SAW A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT, WOULD THAT
r 20 REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHETHER YOU TOLD HER
r 21
22
THAT?
A. YES.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
SHOWING OPPOSING COUNSEL.
MS. LOPEZ, DO YOU READ THE ENGLISH
r 25
26
LANGUAGE?
THE WITNESS: NO.
r 27 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, PLEASE INDICATE
28 THE SECTION IN THE REPORT, AND I WILL ASK THE COURT
r
r
277
2
REPORTER, UNREPORTED, TO READ THAT TO THE WITNESS -- I'M
SORRY -- THE COURT INTERPRETER TO READ THAT PORTION TO
, }
3 THE WITNESS IN SPANISH.

4 AND, MA'AM, THE QUESTION IS GOING TO BE: AFTER
5 YOU HEAR THIS READ TO YOU, DOES IT HELP YOU REMEMBER
6 WHETHER YOU SAID THAT TO THE DETECTIVE?
7 THE WITNESS: VERY WELL. ~I
(
I
8 THE COURT: MADAM INTERPRETER, PLEASE.

,.,
9 (THE INTERPRETER READS TO THE WITNESS.) I
I
11 Q. MS. LOPEZ, DO YOU REMEMBER MAKING THAT l
12 STATEMENT?
13 A. MAYBE, YES. l
14
15
Q. OKAY. YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT YOUR MEMORY
MAY HAVE FADED BETWEEN THEN AND NOW, CORRECT?
l
16 A. YES, MAYBE, BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO FORGET. I
17 HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE.
18 Q. THIS WAS A STRESSFUL THING TO WATCH, I'M SURE. l
19 A. YES.
l
20
21
Q. IT'S BEEN ALMOST TWO AND A HALF YEARS SINCE
THIS HAPPENED, CORRECT? ,
22
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
BEFORE YOU TESTIFIED TODAY, DID YOU TALK TO
MR. TROCHA ABOUT WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY WOULD BE?
,
25 A. NO. 1J
26 Q. DID YOU TALK TO ANYBODY FROM THE DISTRICT
27 ATTORNEY'S OFFICE? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 278
r -
1 Q. AND THE ONLY POLICE OFFICER YOU TALKED TO WAS
r 2
3
DETECTIVE NAVARRO?
A. YES.
F
\
.I
4 Q. MS. LOPEZ, I'M GOING TO AGAIN POINT YOUR
r 5
6
ATTENTION TO PROSECUTION 2, INDICATING THESE THREE DOTS
THAT YOU DREW WHERE THE THREE MEN WERE STANDING,
rm 7 CORRECT?
r
8 A. YES.
r 9 Q. AND THE W IS WHERE THE SHOOTER HAD SHOT THE
r
10 VICTIM, CORRECT?
11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. AM I CORRECT TO ASSUME THAT THE THREE DOTS ARE
FURTHER UP THE HILL THAN THE W?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "FURTHER UP"?
IS THE W FURTHER OR CLOSER TO FRANKLIN AVE.
r 16
17
DOWN HERE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE EXHIBIT THAN THE THREE
DOTS?
r 18 A. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.
r 19
20
Q. WHAT IS CLOSER TO FRANKLIN AVENUE, THE W OR THE
GROUP OF THREE DOTS?
r 21
22
A.
UNDERSTAND.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MAP. I DON'T
r 23
24
Q.
MS. LOPEZ?
ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE WITH THIS EXHIBIT,
r 25 A. NOT A PROBLEM. I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, BUT
r 26 NOT THE MAP.

27 THE COURT: WOULD IT HELP IF YOU WERE CLOSER TO
r 28 IT SO YOU COULD SEE IT?
r
279
1 THE WITNESS: LET ME SEE.

2 THE COURT: THE WITNESS IS APPROACHING PEOPLE'S
3 2. _,
'
4 THE WITNESS: CAN YOU ASK THE QUESTION?
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. THANK YOU.
7 Q. MS. LOPEZ, YOU SEE THESE THREE DOTS THAT YOU
8 DREW, CORRECT?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. THEY INDICATE WHERE THE THREE MEN WERE STANDING ,.,
,
!
11 WHEN THEY WERE TALKING. J
12 A. YES.
)
13 Q. AND THE W INDICATES WHERE THE SHOOTING TOOK j
14 PLACE, CORRECT?
15
16
A.
Q.
YES.
THE THREE DOTS ARE FURTHER AWAY FROM FRANKLIN
, !
17 AND THE W IS -- THAT'S COMPOUND. LET ME JUST START WITH
18 THAT THE THREE DOTS ARE FURTHER AWAY FROM FRANKLIN, 1
19 CORRECT?
l
20
21
THE COURT: THAN WHAT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAN THE W. ,
22
23
24
THE WITNESS:
Q.
YES.
AND THE SHOOTER WALKED OVER FROM THE AREA OF

, J
25 THE THREE DOTS TO THE W, DID HE NOT? l

26 A. YES.
27 Q. SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THE SHOOTER WAS l
28 FACING -- WHEN HE FIRED THE SHOTS WAS FACING THE
l
l
r 280
r 1 DIRECTION WHICH WOULD FACE THE CORNER OF 40TH AND
r 2 FRANKLIN AVENUE?
r 3
4
A.
ROAD.
HE WAS MORE, LIKE, LOOKING TO THIS LITTLE
r 5
6
Q.
40TH?
HE WAS FACING WHAT WOULD BE PERPENDICULAR TO
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
THANK YOU.
r 9
10
MS. LOPEZ, WAS THE SHOOTER AND THE VICTIM DOWN
THE HILL A LITTLE BIT?
[ 11 THE COURT: FROM WHAT?
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME -- I'M SORRY I'M
TAKING TIME, YOUR HONOR, BUT THIS IS CONFUSING.
r 14
15
THE COURT:
THAT'S ALL.
I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
OKAY.
r 18 Q. MS. LOPEZ, THERE IS A HILL THAT GOES UP FROM
r 19
20
FRANKLIN, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. WHERE THE SHOOTING HAPPENED, WAS IT AT THE TOP
OF THE HILL OR WAS IT DOWN THE HILL A BIT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
IN THE TOP PART.
OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 25 MS. LOPEZ, WHEN THE SHOTS WERE FIRED, YOU
r
26 IMMEDIATELY WENT INTO YOUR HOUSE, CORRECT?
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. SO YOU DIDN'T SEE WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE
r
281
1 PARK DID WHEN THE SHOTS WERE GOING OFF?

2 A. NO.
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.
l
4
5
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
IS THERE REDIRECT?
COUPLE THINGS, YOUR HONOR.
, j
BY MR. TROCHA:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
l
8
9 Q. MS. LOPEZ, THIS IS -- YOU'VE TESTIFIED IN I

I
10 THIS CASE BEFORE, CORRECT?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. GOING BACK TO OCTOBER 6TH OF LAST YEAR, I'M
13 GOING TO DO THE SAME THING AND ASK THE INTERPRETER TO l
14
15
READ A SECTION TO YOU, AND I'LL ASK YOU IF YOU RECALL
TESTIFYING.
l
16
17
18 9 TO 23.
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
PAGE, PLEASE?
IT'S PAGE 1019 OF VOLUME 5, LINES
,
1 l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: COUNSEL, CAN WE DO DATES?

20 BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE SAME VOLUME NUMBER. l
MR. TROCHA: I'M SORRY. OCTOBER 6TH.
21
1 J
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PAGE NUMBER AGAIN?
23
24
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
1019.
1019.
1
25 (THE INTERPRETER READS TO THE WITNESS.) l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. MS. LOPEZ, AFTER HAVING THAT READ TO YOU, DO
28 YOU REMEMBER TESTIFYING ON OCTOBER 6TH OF LAST YEAR THAT
l
l
r 282
r 1 THAT'S HOW YOU ALSO SAW THE TWO MEN PULL THE VICTIM UP
r
L~ 2 BY THE ARMS TO THE TOP OF THE HILL?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THAT IT WAS AFTER THAT THAT THE THREE MEN
r 5
6
THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THIS BEATING MET UP BY THE BENCHES
CLOSER TO THE TOP OF THE HILL?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
ESSENTIALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THIS DIAGRAM, IN
r 9
10
THE LOCATIONS YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US TODAY, CORRECT?
A. YES.
[ 11 Q. I'M ALSO GOING TO SHOW YOU THE SAME PAGE, 340
r 12
13
OF DISCOVERY.
(THE INTERPRETER READS TO THE WITNESS.)
r 14
15
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF
r 16
17
THEY WERE TALKING, THESE THREE MEN, WHEN THEY MET UP.
AFTER SEEING OR HAVING HAD THAT STATEMENT THAT
r 18 YOU MADE TO THE DETECTIVE READ TO YOU, DO YOU RECALL NOW
r 19
20
THAT THERE WAS A DISCUSSION THAT YOU WITNESSED, YOU JUST
COULDN'T HEAR WHAT THEY WERE SAYING?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
MS. LOPEZ, DO YOU SPEAK OR UNDERSTAND ENGLISH
r 23
24
TO SOME DEGREE?
A. VERY LITTLE.
r 25 Q. DID YOU HEAR ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING IN ENGLISH
r
26 DURING THE BEATING?
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. WHAT DID YOU HEAR IN ENGLISH BEING SAID?
r
Mf
! I
283
~
I
i
1 A. "I KILL YOU. I KILL YOU," SOMETHING LIKE

2 THAT.
3
4
Q.
A.
WHO WAS SAYING THESE WORDS?
THE FIRST PERSON THAT WAS HITTING THE OTHER
, I
5 PERSON.
6
7
8
Q. LASTLY, MS. LOPEZ, YOUR ATTENTION WAS DRAWN TO
THE EVENTS THAT OCCURRED IN THE PARK, CORRECT?
A. YES.
, ;
""'l
9 Q. AND THIS WAS PARTIALLY DUE, IN PART, TO YELLING i
10 YOU HEARD IN THE PARK; IS THAT CORRECT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. DID YOU HEAR ANY OTHER YELLING THAT NIGHT FROM
13 OTHER LOCATIONS OUTSIDE OF THE PARK? l
14 A. NO. ~
J
15 Q. SPECIFICALLY, DID YOU HEAR ANY YELLING OR SEE
16
17
ANY COMMOTION IN THIS AREA WHERE THE ALLEYWAY MEETS UP
WITH FRANKLIN AVENUE?
l
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. THANK YOU, MS. LOPEZ.
20 I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU. l
21 THE COURT: RECROSS?
l
23
24
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
1
25 Q. MS. LOPEZ, THE INITIAL ASSAILANT -- IS IT l
26 TRUE YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO TELL THE COLOR OF CLOTHING THAT
27 PERSON WAS WEARING? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 284
r 1 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS LIGHT CLOTHING OR

r
l_ 2 DARK CLOTHING?
r 3
4 SEE.
A. DARK, BECAUSE IT WAS NIGHTTIME AND YOU COULDN'T
5 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU WERE WITNESSING THIS, WOULD THE

f 6 WORD "SHADOW" OR "SILHOUETTE" BE APPROPRIATE TO DESCRIBE
i 7 IT?
8 A. YES.
r 9 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE -- OR WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL
r 10
11
THE TYPE OF SHIRT THE FIRST ASSAILANT HAD ON?
A. NO.
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: REDIRECT?

NOTHING FURTHER.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NOTHING.
MAY MS. LOPEZ BE EXCUSED?
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA: YES.
r 18 THE COURT: MS. LOPEZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
r 19
20
COURT. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE.
PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS WHAT YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT IN COURT
r 21
22
WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS OR
LAWYERS. OKAY?
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
OKAY.
THANK YOU. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
r 25 MR. TROCHA?
r 26
27 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE CALL JESSICA LOPEZ, YOUR
r
285
, j
1 THE INTERPRETER: AND WITH THAT, YOUR HONOR, I

~I
2 BELIEVE THE INTERPRETER IS EXCUSED?
3 THE COURT: WE'LL CONFIRM THAT. THANK YOU,
4
5
MADAM INTERPRETER.
THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE ,
6
7
, }
8 HELP YOU GOD?

9 THE WITNESS: YES. l
10 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT
11 THE WITNESS STAND. 1
12 THE COURT: UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
13 GOOD AFTERNOON. 1
,
1
14 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON.
15 THE CLERK: COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL
16 NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD.
l
17 THE WITNESS: JESSICA LOPEZ, L-0-P-E-Z.

18 THE COURT: MS. LOPEZ, THANK YOU. 1 J
19 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY EXAMINE.

20 JESSICA LOPEZ,
l 1
21 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN,

22 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
l
23
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
1
25 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. LOPEZ. l
27 Q. WAS THAT YOUR MOTHER THAT JUST WALKED OUT AS l
28 YOU WALKED IN?
l
l
r 286
r 1 A. YES.
[ 2 Q. LET ME TAKE YOU BACK TO SEPTEMBER OF 2008. AND
3 WHEN I ASK YOU THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHERE YOU LIVED AND
r 4 THINGS OF THAT NATURE, I DON'T WANT YOUR SPECIFIC
[ 5
6
ADDRESS OR EVEN FOR YOU TO POINT OUT A HOUSE ON ANY
DIAGRAMS, JUST THE GENERAL LOCATIONS. DO YOU
r 7
8
UNDERSTAND?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q. GOING BACK TO SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, THIS WAS THE
SAME NIGHT OF AN EVENT, AN ASSAULT THAT OCCURRED IN A
r 11 PARK. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHICH NIGHT I'M TALKING ABOUT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
EARLIER IN THAT EVENING, WERE YOU AT YOUR HOME
r 14
15
OR AT ANOTHER LOCATION?
A. WELL, I WAS THERE THAT NIGHT.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WERE YOU AT HOME THE ENTIRE TIME?
YES.
r 18
19
Q. AT SOME POINT -- LET ME CLEAR THIS UP.
AT SOME POINT WERE YOU COMING BACK FROM ANOTHER
r 20 LOCATION TO YOUR HOUSE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO WERE YOU WITH AT THAT TIME?
r 23
24
A. WITH MY MOM, MY AUNT AND MY SISTER, AND I THINK
IT WAS MY NEPHEW.
r 25 Q. I'LL SHOW YOU FOR A BRIEF SECOND -- WE'LL GET

26 TO IT A LITTLE BIT LATER-- PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
r 27 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION IN THE PHOTOGRAPH
r 28 OF PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2?
L
, l
287
~
I
I
1 A. YES.
2
3
4
Q.
A.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE STREETS DEPICTED, OCEAN
VIEW BOULEVARD, SOUTH 40TH AND FRANKLIN?
YES.
, I
5 Q. AT THE TIME IN SEPTEMBER, WERE YOU LIVING IN

6 THIS NEIGHBORHOOD?
1
7 A. YES. 1 I
8 Q. AGAIN, WHEN I ASK YOU THIS QUESTION, I DON'T

9 WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHERE, BUT WERE YOU LIVING TO THE 'i j
10 EAST OF THE PARK, TO THE WEST OF THE PARK, OR TO -- THIS

11 WOULD BE THE NORTH OF THE PARK? l
12 A. NORTH.
13 Q. FROM YOUR HOME, IF YOU WERE TO OPEN YOUR FRONT
1
14
15
DOOR, WHAT WOULD YOUR VIEW BE?
ABLE TO SEE THE PARK?
I MEAN, WOULD YOU BE
1
16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU AT A LOCATION WHERE YOU WERE LOOKING
,
18
19
20
DOWN INTO THE PARK?
A.
Q.
YES.
AS OPPOSED TO IF YOU WERE AT STREET LEVEL YOU
, I
21 WOULD HAVE TO LOOK UP TO THE PARK.

l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
NOW, AS YOU WERE DRIVING HOME THAT NIGHT, DID
YOU HAVE TO PASS THE PARK IN ORDER TO GET TO YOUR
,
25 HOUSE -- OR DRIVE PAST THE PARK, I'M SORRY, TO GET TO 1
26 YOUR HOUSE?
27 A. YES. 1 J
28 Q. AS YOU WERE DRIVING PAST THE PARK, DID YOU SEE

l
l
r 288
r 1 ANYTHING OR ANYONE IN THE PARK?
r 2
3
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DID YOU SEE?

[ 4 A. I SAW PEOPLE WALKING IN THE PARK.
5 Q. WHERE IN THE PARK WERE THEY WALKING?

[ 6 A. KIND OF BY THE BATHROOMS.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
ABOUT WHAT TIME OF NIGHT WAS THIS?
LIKE ALMOST NINE, I THINK.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
COULD YOU SEE IF THEY WERE MEN OR WOMEN?
NO.
r 11 Q. ABOUT HOW MANY DID YOU SEE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
AT FIRST IT WAS PROBABLY LIKE TWO.
IS IT UNUSUAL TO SEE PEOPLE IN THE PARK AT THAT
[ 14 TIME OF NIGHT?
15 A. KIND OF, YEAH.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
DID YOU THINK ANYTHING OF IT AT THE TIME?
NO.
r 18 Q. I TAKE IT ONCE YOU DROVE PAST THE PARK, YOU GOT
r 19
20
TO YOUR HOME AND WENT INSIDE.
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT DID YOU DO ONCE YOU GOT HOME?
WENT TO MY ROOM.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DID SOMETHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE PARK?
YES.
r 25 Q. WHAT DREW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE PARK?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
THERE WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE.
WHERE WAS THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE?
r 28 A. IN THE PARK.
r
~
289
, J
I
1 Q. WHERE IN THE PARK?

,
2
3
A.
Q.
KIND OF BY THE BATHROOMS.
BY THE BATHROOMS? ,
4
5
A.
Q.
YEAH, I THINK.
WHERE ARE THE BATHROOMS IN THE PARK? ,
6 A. RIGHT THERE, YES.
,
,
7 Q. THIS SMALL BUILDING IN THE PARK?
8 COULD YOU SEE THESE PEOPLE BY THE BATHROOMS
9 WHILE YOU WERE IN YOUR HOME? J
10 A. NO.
11 Q. ONCE YOU GOT TO YOUR HOME, DID YOU LOOK OUTSIDE l
12 AT THE PARK AT ANOTHER TIME THAT NIGHT?
1
13
14
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU DID THAT, WHY DID YOU LOOK IN THE PARK ,
15
16
17
LATER THAT NIGHT?
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I HEARD SCREAMING.
WHERE WERE YOU IN YOUR HOME WHEN YOU HEARD
,
18 SCREAMING? 1
19 A. IN THE KITCHEN.
20 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU HEARD THE SCREAMING? l
A. I CALLED THE POLICE.
21
1
22
23
24
Q.
POLICE?
A.
DID YOU LOOK AT THE PARK BEFORE CALLING THE
YES.
,
25 Q. SO WHEN YOU HEARD THE SCREAMING, DID YOU GO TO 1
26 YOUR FRONT DOOR OR WAS THERE A WINDOW YOU COULD SEE OUT
27 OF INTO THE PARK? l
28 A. YES.
1
,
~
I 290
r 1 Q. WHICH WAS IT?
r 2
3
A.
Q.
THE WINDOW IN THE KITCHEN.
YOU CAN SEE THE PARK FROM INSIDE THE KITCHEN?
~ 4 A. YES.
Q. THE SCREAMING YOU HEARD, HOW DID YOU KNOW IT

[ 5
6 WAS COMING FROM THE PARK?
r 7
8
A.
THE PARK.
BECAUSE THERE WAS NOBODY, JUST THE PEOPLE AT
r 9 Q. WHEN YOU HEARD THE SCREAMING AND YOU LOOKED
r 10
11
12
INTO THE PARK, WHAT DID YOU SEE?
A.
Q.
SOMEBODY ON THE FLOOR AND PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
WHEN YOU SAY SOMEONE IS ON THE FLOOR, ARE THEY

[ 13 LYING ON THE GROUND?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
COULD YOU TELL IF THIS PERSON WAS LYING ON HIS
r 16
17
BACK OR HIS STOMACH?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 18 Q. WHERE IN THE PARK WAS THIS PERSON LYING?
19 A. KIND OF WHERE THE RED CIRCLE IS AT.

r 20 Q. BY WHERE THE RED CIRCLE IS WITH SOME OF THE
r 21
22
BLACK STUFF AROUND IT?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q.
ALONE?
WAS THIS PERSON LYING ON THE GROUND IN THE PARK
[ 25 A. YES.
26 Q. WAS THERE ANYBODY AROUND HIM?
L 27 A. OH, THERE WAS PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
c 28 Q. WHAT WERE THESE PEOPLE DOING?
r
!lim}
I
I
I
291
l
1 A. HITTING.
,
2
4
Q.
A.
Q.
HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE HITTING THIS PERSON?
LIKE AROUND THREE.
WHEN YOU LOOKED, THESE THREE PEOPLE, WERE THEY
, I
.r
5 STANDING?
6 A. YES.
1
,
1
7 Q. SO IN ORDER TO HIT HIM, DID THEY HAVE TO HIT
8 DOWNWARDS?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID YOU SEE IF THEY WERE USING ANY WEAPONS AT
l
11
12
THIS TIME?
A. NO. ,
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THEY WERE KICKING?
, ~
,
14 A. YES.
J
15 Q. YOU COULD SEE THIS?
16 A. YES.
j
17 Q. THE PERSON ON THE GROUND, WAS HE FIGHTING BACK?

18 A. NO. l
19 Q. WHAT WAS HE DOING?
20 A. JUST SCREAMING. 1
21 Q. WHAT KIND OF SCREAMING WAS IT?
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
A.
KIND OF LIKE ASKING, KIND OF, FOR HELP.
DID HE AT ANY TIME FIGHT BACK?
NO.
,
25 Q. DID HE TRY TO COVER UP OR GET AWAY OR ANYTHING 1
26 LIKE THAT?
27 A. HUH-UH, NO. l
28 Q. WHEN YOU FIRST LOOKED UP AND SAW THIS, WERE ALL
l
1
r 292
[
1 THREE PEOPLE ACTIVELY BEATING THIS PERSON?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4 HEAR?
Q. WERE THEY SAYING ANYTHING THAT YOU COULD
5 A. NO.
[ 6 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THESE THREE MEN THAT
[ 7 WERE DOING THE BEATING?
8 A. I CAN'T. I COULDN'T DESCRIBE THEM.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
FIRST OFF, WERE THEY MEN?
YES.
r 11 Q. DEFINITELY NOT WOMEN?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE NO LONG HAIR.
FROM WHAT YOU SAW, IT APPEARED THAT THEY WERE
[ 16 MEN?
17 A. YES.
r 18 Q. DID YOU SEE WHAT KIND OF CLOTHING THEY WERE
r 19
20
WEARING?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT KIND OF CLOTHING WERE THEY WEARING?
WELL, I SAW LIKE A WHITE SHIRT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
ONE MAN WAS WEARING A WHITE SHIRT?
YES.
( 25 Q. FOR THIS PERSON, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HOW
26 TALL HE WAS?
( 27 A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 28 Q. WAS HE ABNORMALLY TALL?
r
293
,
1
2
A.
Q.
NO.
WAS HE VERY, VERY SHORT?
, J
3 A. NO.
4
6
Q.
A.
Q.
AVERAGE?
AVERAGE.
WHAT WAS HIS BUILD? WAS HE REALLY FAT? WAS HE
,
1
,,
7 VERY THIN? MUSCULAR? SOMETHING ELSE?
8 A. REGULAR.
9 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER TWO? WHAT WERE THEY
10 DRESSED AS?
11
12
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO THEM.
DO YOU RECALL GIVING A STATEMENT TO A DETECTIVE
J
,
13 THE NIGHT -- I GUESS IT WOULD BE THE MORNING IMMEDIATELY
AFTER THE INCIDENT? ,
,
14
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU TO ASSIST YOUR RECOLLECTION
17 IF YOU WERE TO SEE THAT STATEMENT TO SEE IF IT JOGS YOUR
1
18
19
20
MEMORY?
A.
Q.
THAT'S FINE.
YES OR NO?
,
A. THAT'S OKAY.
21
22 Q. DO YOU RECALL GIVING A STATEMENT WHERE YOU
1
23
24
25
26
DESCRIBED WHAT THE OTHER MEN WERE WEARING?
A.
Q.
WEARING?
YES.
DO YOU RECALL NOW WHAT THESE PEOPLE WERE
,
1
J
27 A. I THINK THEY WERE ALL WEARING WHITE OR BLACK. l

28 Q. DO YOU RECALL SAYING ONE OF THE MEN WAS WEARING
1
1
r
l-
294
[
1 A DARK SHIRT?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3 Q. HOW MANY MEN WERE WEARING A DARK SHIRT?

4 A. I THINK IT WAS ONE OR TWO.
5 Q. DO YOU RECALL TELLING THIS DETECTIVE ACTUALLY
[ 6 THAT WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THE SCREAMING AND LOOKED OUT,
l 7
8
YOU INITIALLY SAW ONE PERSON BEATING UP ANOTHER PERSON?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. IS YOUR MEMORY TODAY AS GOOD AS IT WAS BACK
r 10
11
WHEN YOU MADE THE STATEMENTS?
A. NO.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
OBVIOUSLY IT'S BEEN A COUPLE OF YEARS, CORRECT?
YES.
r 14
15
Q. AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, WAS IT ONE PERSON
INITIALLY BEATING UP THE MAN OR WAS IT THREE?
[ 16 A. WELL, FIRST IT STARTED LIKE ONE, AND THEN IT
17 STARTED TO GO --
r 18 Q. OKAY. LET'S TAKE THIS STEP BY STEP, MS. LOPEZ.
r 19
20
WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THE SCREAMING AND YOU
LOOKED OUTSIDE THE KITCHEN WINDOW, EXACTLY WHAT DID YOU
r 21
22
SEE?
A. I SAW PEOPLE FIGHTING THERE IN THE PARK.
r 23
24
Q. THERE WAS THIS -- HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING
AT THE GET-GO?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
AT THE GET-GO, JUST TWO.
AND WHEN YOU SAY THEY WERE FIGHTING, WERE THEY
[ 27 BOTH STANDING UP, PUNCHING EACH OTHER?
r 28 A. NO. JUST ONE HITTING THE OTHER PERSON.
r
,
295
,
J
1
2
3
Q. THE PERSON THAT WAS GETTING HIT, WERE THEY
STANDING UP OR LYING DOWN?
A. AT FIRST THEY WERE STANDING UP.
,
4 Q. DID YOU SEE THE PERSON GET KNOCKED DOWN? 1
5 A. NO.
6 Q. AT SOME POINT, HOW DID THE PERSON THAT WAS
1
1
,
7 GETTING HIT GO FROM STANDING UP TO LYING DOWN?
X
8 A. I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE I LEFT THE ROOM. I

9 LOOKED AWAY.
10 Q. THE PERSON THAT WAS DOING THIS HITTING, WHEN
11 YOU FIRST LOOKED UP AND SAW THIS, WAS THIS THE PERSON IN 1
12 THE DARK CLOTHING?
1
13 A. YES.
WAS THERE ANYTHING ELSE UNUSUAL ABOUT THIS ,
,
14 Q.
15 PERSON'S APPEARANCE OTHER THAN DARK CLOTHING?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WAS THIS THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD DIFFERENTIATE
~
18 THIS PERSON FROM THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU DESCRIBED LATER? J
19 A. YES.
20 Q. HOW LONG WAS THIS FIRST PERSON BEATING THE 1
VICTIM?
21
1
22 A. APPROXIMATELY LIKE TWO OR THREE MINUTES.
,
,
23 Q. WAS HE DOING THIS ALL BY HIMSELF?
24 A. AT FIRST, YES.
25 Q. DID YOU SEE WHEN HE WAS JOINED BY OTHER PEOPLE?
26 A. YES.
1
27
28
Q.
A.
HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT?
JUST WHEN I LOOKED AWAY, THEN I LOOKED BACK, ,
,
r 296
[
1 THEN I SAW A GROUP OF PEOPLE.
r 2 Q. WHY DID YOU LOOK AWAY?
r 3 A. BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE FIGHTS.

4 Q. WAS THIS SHOCKING TO SEE?
5 A. YES.
[ 6 Q. WHEN YOU LOOKED BACK, WAS THIS AN EXTENDED
r 7
8
PERIOD OF TIME OR WAS THIS LOOK DOWN AND THEN BACK UP?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHICH ONE?
I LOOKED AWAY FOR A SECOND, WENT TO GET
r 11 SOMETHING IN MY ROOM, AND THEN CAME BACK.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHEN YOU CAME BACK, WHAT DID YOU SEE?
THAT THERE WAS ONE ON THE FLOOR AND PEOPLE
r 14
15
AROUND.
Q. WHEN YOU CAME BACK AFTER GOING TO YOUR ROOM,
L 16 WAS IT STILL JUST ONE PERSON BEATING ANOTHER PERSON?

17 A. NO. IT WAS A GROUP.
r 18 Q. AT THIS TIME, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED IN
19 THE BEATING?
l 20 A. LIKE AROUND THREE.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
THREE ON ONE?
YES.
r 23
24
Q. WAS IT AT THIS TIME THAT YOU SAW THE PERSON
WEARING THE WHITE SHIRT?
r 25 A. YES.
r
26 Q. NOW, DURING THIS FIRST BEATING OR DURING THE
27 SECOND BEATING, JUST TO MAKE SURE, DID YOU HEAR SPECIFIC
r 28 WORDS BEING SAID BY ONE OF THE ATTACKERS TO THE VICTIM?
r
297
,
1 A. NO.
l
2 Q. DO YOU RECALL GIVING A STATEMENT TO THE POLICE l
3 IN WHICH YOU HEARD THE MALE IN THE DARK SHIRT ACTUALLY
l
4 SAY SPECIFIC WORDS IN ENGLISH TO THE VICTIM?
A. YES. ,
,
5
6 Q. WHAT ARE THOSE WORDS THAT YOU HEARD?
,
7 A. WELL, AT LAST I HEARD, "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU."
-'
8 Q. AND THIS WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE PERSON WEARING

9 THE DARK CLOTHING?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WAS THIS BEFORE YOU WENT TO YOUR BEDROOM OR 1
12 AFTER YOU CAME BACK FROM YOUR BEDROOM?
1
13
14
A. AFTER I CAME BACK.
THE BEATING, ALL THE EVENTS YOU SAW, DID IT ALL ,
,
Q.
15 TAKE PLACE WITHIN THE SAME LOCATION IN THE PARK?
,
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WERE THERE MULTIPLE LOCATIONS?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WHERE WERE THESE MULTIPLE LOCATIONS?
1
20
21
A. IT STARTED OVER WHERE KIND OF THE RED CIRCLE IS
AT AND IT MOVED DOWN. ,
22
23
24
Q.
A.
IT MIGHT ACTUALLY HELP IF YOU WANTED TO JUST
COME UP AND POINT IT OUT FOR US.
SORRY. LIKE RIGHT AROUND HERE AND THEN OVER
,
25 HERE. 1
26 Q. FOR THE RECORD, WHEN YOU SAY, "IT STARTED," IS
27 IT UP AROUND WHERE THE RED CIRCLE IS? l
28 A. YES.
1
1
r 298
F
L.
1 Q. AND IT MOVED DOWN TO THE BLACK SQUIGGLE?
[ 2 A. YES.
Q. AND DID IT MOVE FROM THERE TO ANOTHER LOCATION
r
3
4 LATER?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND.
c 7
8
AND, FOR THE RECORD, IF THE JURORS DIDN'T SEE,
MS. LOPEZ INDICATED THAT "IT," BEING THE BEATING,
r 9 STARTED WHERE THE RED CIRCLE WAS AND MOVED NORTH TO
r 10
11
12
WHERE THE BLACK W WAS.
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
[ 13 Q. WHEN YOU CAME BACK FROM YOUR BEDROOM, WERE THEY
[ 14 STILL AT THE RED CIRCLE LOCATION OR THE BLACK W

15 LOCATION?
r 16
17
A. THE BLACK AREA.
r
Q. WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THIS LOCATION?
18 A. THEY WERE BEATING UP THE PERSON ON THE FLOOR.
19 Q. WAS THE PERSON STILL MAKING NOISE?
r: 20 A. YES.
21 Q. WAS IT THE SAME KIND OF SCREAMING THAT YOU
[
22 HEARD EARLIER?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AT SOME POINT DID THE BEATING STOP?
r 25 A.
Q.
NO.
IT JUST CONTINUED ON AND ON OR --
r
26
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AT SOME POINT DID THE PEOPLE STOP HITTING OR
[
r
299
1
f\1!&}
1
1 PUNCHING THE VICTIM?
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. LEADING. l
3 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
4 WHAT WAS THE NEXT THING THAT HAPPENED THAT YOU 1
5 SAW?
6 THE WITNESS: THAT I SAW? WELL, I JUST SAW THE
l
7
8
PERSON ON THE FLOOR AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM, HITTING,
AND THAT'S IT.
1
l
,
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. HOW LONG DID THEY CONTINUE TO HIT HIM?
11 A. IT WAS LIKE AROUND PROBABLY FIVE MINUTES. j
12 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE FIVE MINUTES WAS OVER?

13 A. AFTER FIVE MINUTES, I LOOKED AWAY. l
14
15
Q.
A.
DID YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO YOUR BEDROOM AGAIN?
YES.
l
16 Q. DID YOU COME BACK TO YOUR BEDROOM A THIRD TIME
1
17 TO WATCH WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE PARK AGAIN?
18 A. YES. 1
19 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE ON THIS THIRD VISIT?
20 A. THIRD VISIT, I SAW SOMEBODY PULL OUT A GUN. 1
21 Q. WAS THE -- WHERE IN THE PARK DID THIS TAKE
l
22
23
24
PLACE?
A.
Q.
THE SAME SPOT AS THE BLACK SQUIGGLY LINE.
THE SECOND LOCATION YOU JUST DESCRIBED.
,
25 A. YES. 1
26 Q. WAS THE PERSON THAT WAS GETTING BEATEN -- WERE
27 THEY STILL IN THAT LOCATION? l
28 A. YES.
1
l
r 300
r 1 Q. WHAT WERE THEY DOING?
r 2 A. THE PERSON ON THE FLOOR?
r
3 Q. YES.
4 A. HE WAS JUST, LIKE, MOVING AROUND.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WERE THEY STILL LYING DOWN?
YES.
c 7
8
Q.
SHOOTING.
WHAT DID THE PERSON -- WALK US THROUGH THE
HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT?
r 9 A. WELL, THEY WERE -- LIKE THE PERSON ON THE FLOOR
r 10
11
12
WAS LAYING THERE AND WAS KIND OF MOVING AROUND AS, LIKE,
IF HE WAS HURT, AND SCREAMING, AND THE PEOPLE JUST KEPT
ON HITTING HIM THERE.
c 13 Q. AND THEN YOU WENT TO YOUR BEDROOM?
r
I
14 A. YES.
15 Q. AND WHEN YOU CAME BACK, WHAT DID YOU SEE OTHER
r 16
17
THAN THE PERSON JUST LYING ON THE GROUND?
A. LIKE SOMEBODY MADE LIKE A HAND GESTURE, LIKE A
r: 18 BULLET, GUN.
c 19
20
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS THIS PERSON STANDING?
RIGHT, LIKE, KIND OF BESIDE OR IN FRONT OF THE
21 PERSON ON THE FLOOR.
[
22 Q. DID YOU SEE HIM MAKE ANY GESTURES TOWARDS THE
c 23
24
PERSON LYING ON THE GROUND?
A. YES.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
WHAT DID YOU SEE?
LIKE, POINTING LIKE A GUN.
( 27 Q. COULD YOU ACTUALLY SEE A GUN?
r 28 A. NO.
r
1
1 Q. ONCE THE PERSON -- COULD YOU SHOW THE JURY WHAT
301
,
l
2
3
THE POINTING GESTURE IS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
AND YOU'VE TAKEN YOUR RIGHT HAND AND PUT IT AT ,
4
5
6
A SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN 90-DEGREE ANGLE, AS IF YOU WERE
HOLDING A GUN.
A. YES.
, J
8
Q.
A.
WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
THEN I WENT --WHEN I WENT TO MY ROOM, THAT'S
1
9 WHEN I CALLED. 1 ~
10 Q. WELL, DID YOU SEE ANYONE SHOOT A GUN?

11 A. NO. WHEN I HEARD, I WAS IN MY ROOM, CALLING. 1
12 I WAS ON THE PHONE.
13
14
15
Q. WHEN YOU CAME OUT THIS LAST TIME, SAW THE
PERSON STANDING OVER THE PERSON WHO WAS BEING BEATEN,
WITH THE GESTURE AS IF THEY HAD A GUN, DID YOU HEAR ANY
,
l
J
16
17
SOUNDS OF GUNFIRE WHILE YOU WERE WATCHING?
A. NO.
1
18 Q. WHEN, IF AT ANY TIME, DID YOU HEAR SOUNDS OF 1
19 GUNFIRE?
20 A. WHEN I WAS IN MY ROOM. 1
,
21 Q. WAS THIS AFTER YOU SAW THIS GESTURE?
22 A. YES.
1
,
23 Q. THE PERSON THAT WALKED OVER TO THE MAN LYING ON
J
24 THE GROUND, WHAT WERE THEY WEARING?
25 A. CAN YOU REPEAT, PLEASE?
26 Q. SURE. THE PERSON THAT WALKED OVER AND DID THIS
l
27
28
GESTURE AS IF THEY HAD A GUN, WHAT COLOR CLOTHES WERE
THEY WEARING? ,
~
1
r 302
[
1 A. IT WAS DARK OR WHITE.
r 2 Q. DARK OR WHITE?
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. DO YOU RECALL, AGAIN, TALKING TO A DETECTIVE
r 5
6
EARLIER IN THIS CASE --
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. THE DAY AFTER?
DO YOU RECALL TELLING HER THAT THE MALE WITH
[ 9 THE DARK-COLORED SHIRT WALKED OVER TO THE VICTIM AND

10 STOOD BESIDE HIM, "HIM" BEING THE PERSON LYING ON THE
r 11 GROUND?
12 A. YES.
( 13 Q. AND THEN YOU STATED THE PERSON -- AGAIN, THE
r 14
15
DARK-COLORED SHIRT -- PULLED A GUN OUT FROM HIS SIDE AND
SHOT THE VICTIM ONCE AND THEN SEVERAL MORE TIMES.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN YOU FINISHED BY SAYING YOU COULD SEE

[ 18 THE VICTIM TOSSING AROUND, AS IF TRYING TO AVOID BEING
r 19
20
SHOT.
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
DETECTIVE?
YOU STATED YOU SAW THESE THINGS TO THIS
r 23
24
A.
SHOOTING.
WELL, I DIDN'T SAY IT LIKE THAT I SAW THE
I JUST SAW WHEN THEY WERE HITTING HIM THAT HE
r 25
26
WAS, LIKE, MOVING AROUND TO AVOID THE HITTING.
Q. WOULD IT HELP TO SEE YOUR STATEMENT IN TERMS OF
r 27 THE CONTEXT THESE WORDS WERE SAID?
28 A. YES.
[
r
303
l
.l
1 Q. SURE.
2 MS. LOPEZ, AFTER SEEING THAT, DOES THAT HELP l
3 YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO THE ORDER OF EVENTS
4 IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU WI-TNESSED AND WHAT YOU STATED TO
1 J
5 THE DETECTIVE?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. IN TERMS OF GETTING BACK TO THE SHOOTING,
ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU TOLD THE DETECTIVE, YOU ACTUALLY
l
l
9
10
11
DID SEE FIVE SHOTS AND THE VICTIM ROLLING AROUND IN
RESPONSE TO THEM; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT?
A. YES.
, !
12 Q. IS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO BE HERE TODAY?

13 A. YES.
1 .'.1
14
15
Q.
A.
WHY IS THAT?
BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING THAT I DON'T WANT TO
l
16
17
REMEMBER, SOMETHING THAT'S PROBABLY LIKE ALMOST FORGOT,
BECAUSE IT'S LIKE SOMETHING YOU COULD DELETE OUT OF YOUR
1
18 MEMORY. 1
19 Q. IS THIS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO REMEMBER OR
20 YOU'RE TRYING NOT TO? 1
21 A. TRYING NOT TO REMEMBER.
22 Q. WHY IS THAT?
1
23
24
A. BECAUSE IT'S NOT SOMETHING NICE, A GOOD PICTURE
THAT YOU WANT TO KEEP IN YOUR MIND.
1
25 Q. IN TERMS OF COMING BACK TO COURT TO TESTIFY, 1
26 DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO REVIEW THESE STATEMENTS BEFORE
27 COMING IN TO TESTIFY AT THIS HEARING? l
28 A. YES.
1 1
l
r 304
r 1 Q. YES?
[ 2 A. NO.
3 Q. YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THESE -- AGAIN, PREVIOUS

[ 4 OCCASIONS YOU HAVE SEEN THEM, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
PREVIOUS, YES.
BUT NOT PREVIOUS TO THIS PARTICULAR HEARING.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
NOW, GETTING BACK TO THE EVENTS OF THAT
c 9 EVENING, DID YOU CALL 911?
r
10 A. YES.
11 Q. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU CALL 911?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
TWO.
WHEN DID YOU FIRST CALL 911?
r 14
15
A.
MY ROOM,
THE FIRST TIME WHEN I LOOKED AWAY AND I WENT TO
I CALLED; WHEN I SAW THE BEATING ON THE
r 16
17
FLOOR -- WHEN THE PERSON ON THE FLOOR WAS WITH THE
PEOPLE AROUND, BEATING.
r 18 Q. WAS THIS THE TIME IN THE KITCHEN WHEN YOU SAW
r 19
20
THE ONE MAN BEATING THE ONE PERSON, OR WAS THIS THE TIME
WHEN YOU SAW THREE MEN BEATING THE PERSON?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WHEN I SAW THREE MEN BEATING ONE PERSON.
WHY DID YOU CALL 911 AT THAT TIME?
c 23
24
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I GOT SCARED.
WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE
c 25
26
PERSON GETTING BEATEN?
A. SOMETHING BAD. THEY COULD KILL HIM OR
[ 27 SOMETHING.
28 Q. DID IT APPEAR HE WAS IN DANGER OF BEING KILLED?

l
r
l
1 A. YES.
305
,
2 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY GET AHOLD OF 1
3 SOMEONE AT 911?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. AFTER THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED, IS THAT WHEN YOU
6 RETURNED TO WATCH MORE OF THE EVENTS IN THE PARK?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
AFTER THIS PHONE CALL, WAS THIS WHEN THE
l
9 SHOOTING, AS WE'VE DESCRIBED, TOOK PLACE? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. NOW, JUST TO CLARIFY, AFTER LOOKING AT YOUR l
12 STATEMENTS TO THE POLICE, DID YOU, IN FACT, SEE THE ~
~
13 SHOOTING?
14
15
A.
Q.
AT FIRST, YES.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "AT FIRST"?
1
16
17
A. WELL, WHEN THEY SHOOT A COUPLE OF TIMES, THAT'S
WHEN I WENT BACK TO MY ROOM AND CALLED THE SECOND TIME.
1
18 Q. SO IN TERMS OF THE SHOTS, YOU TOLD THE OFFICERS l
19 THERE WERE FIVE SHOTS FIRED. DID YOU SEE ALL FIVE OR
20 DID YOU SEE SOME OF THEM? 1
21 A. JUST SOME OF THEM.
22 Q. AND AT THAT POINT IS WHEN YOU WENT TO YOUR
l
23 BEDROOM FOR A SECOND TIME? 1)
24 A. YES.
25 Q. OTHER THAN HEARING THE SHOTS, DID YOU SEE 1
26 ANYTHING THAT WOULD INDICATE A GUN WAS BEING FIRED?
27 A. JUST THE GESTURE THAT I SHOWED. l
28 Q. BETWEEN THE SECOND EVENT WHEN YOU SAW THE THREE
l
l
r 306
r 1 PEOPLE BEATING THE MAN AND THEN THE THIRD EVENT WHEN YOU
[ 2 SAW THE SHOOTING ACTUALLY TAKE PLACE, DID YOU SEE ANY OF
3 THE ATTACKERS, THE THREE MEN YOU'VE DESCRIBED, TALKING?

[ 4 A. NO.
5 Q. DO YOU RECALL TALKING TO THE DETECTIVE, GIVING

[ 6 HER A STATEMENT THAT YOU DID SEE THEM TALKING?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WOULD IT HELP TO SEE THAT AGAIN OR TO REFRESH
r 9 YOUR RECOLLECTION?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
NO, THAT'S FINE.
OKAY.
I'LL JUST TRY TO REMEMBER.
DO YOU RECALL TELLING THE DETECTIVE THAT
r 12
13
YOU "RETURNED TO THE FRONT WINDOW AFTER CALLING THE
POLICE FOR THE FIRST TIME," FOR THE BEATING, "TO SEE
r 14
15
WHAT WAS GOING ON." BY THE TIME YOU GOT TO THE WINDOW,
YOU COULD NOT SEE WHERE EVERYONE HAD GONE, INCLUDING THE
r 16
17
VICTIM.
A.
THESE WOULD BE THE PEOPLE IN THE PARK.
YES.
r 18 Q. IS THAT CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU SAID YOU "TURNED AWAY FROM THE WINDOW FOR A
r 21
22
FEW SECONDS, AND WHEN YOU LOOKED OUT AGAIN, YOU SAW THAT
THE VICTIM WAS NOW LYING AT THE TOP OF THE GRASSY
r 23
24
KNOLL."
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
r: 25 A. YES.
26 Q. SO IN TERMS OF THE EVENTS AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED

( 27 TODAY OF STARTING AT THE TOP OF THE GRASSY KNOLL AND
c 28 ENDING AT THE BOTTOM
r
307
1
1 A. YES.
l
2 Q. -- WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN REVERSED? l
3 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "REVERSED"? LIKE SWITCHED?
4 Q. YES. 1
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND IN TERMS OF YOUR TESTIMONY, THERE WERE TWO
l
7 SEPARATE LOCATIONS IN TERMS OF THE BEATING; WOULD THAT
l 1
8 BE CORRECT?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. EITHER AT THE TOP OR AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS
11 HILL.
12 A. YES.
13 Q. ACCORDING TO THE STATEMENT YOU GAVE THE l
14
15
DETECTIVE ON THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, IT STARTED AT
THE BOTTOM AND ENDED UP AT THE TOP.
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. GETTING BACK TO YOUR STATEMENT, "THE VICTIM WAS
18 NOW LYING AT THE TOP OF THE GRASSY KNOLL. LOPEZ SAID 1
19 SHE ALSO SAW TWO MALES ARGUING NEAR THE FENCE LINE
20 ADJACENT TO THE HOMES."
1 J
,
21 DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT?
22 A. NO.
l
23 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU TO SEE THAT IT WAS STATED --
.l
24 A. AND I READ IT, BUT

25 Q. OKAY. UNDERSTOOD, AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US. 1
26 WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FENCE LINE, IS
27 THERE A FENCE THAT RUNS THE LENGTH OF THIS ALLEY BY THE l
28 PARK?
l
l
r 308
[
1 A. YES.
[ 2 Q. AND THESE WOULD BE THE HOMES ON THE OTHER SIDE?
3 A. YES.
[ 4 Q. AND YOUR STATEMENT WAS "ONE OF THE MALES WAS
5 WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT, AND THE SECOND MALE MATCHED THE

L 6 DESCRIPTION OF THE MALE WHO WAS INITIALLY BEATING THE
r 7
8
VICTIM."
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q. YOU SAID YOU "COULD NOT HEAR EVERYTHING THE
MALES WERE ARGUING ABOUT, BUT HEARD ONE OF THE MALES

[ 11 SAY, 'WHERE ARE YOU FROM?"'
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
SO IN YOUR STATEMENT TO THE DETECTIVE, BETWEEN
r 14
15
THE BEATING IN WHICH THREE PEOPLE WERE BEATING ONE
PERSON, AND THE SHOOTING, THERE WAS THIS DISCUSSION
[ 16 BETWEEN AT LEAST ONE OF THE MALES WEARING A WHITE
17 T-SHIRT AND THE INITIAL ATTACKER IN THE DARK SHIRT.
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. AND IT WAS THIS LATER INITIAL ATTACKER IN THE
DARK SHIRT THAT YOU WITNESSED SHOOT THE VICTIM?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
MS. LOPEZ, THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THESE
r
J.
23
24
EVENTS IN THE PARK, DID YOU EVER SEE ANYONE COME TO THE
ASSISTANCE OR AID OF THE PERSON WHO WAS BEING BEATEN?
r 25
26
A. NO.
MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER.

c 27 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU WISH TO
r 28 BEGIN TODAY OR TOMORROW MORNING WITH YOUR EXAMINATION?
r
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, THANK YOU. I
309
, J
2
3
4
THINK IT WOULD BE PRUDENT TO BEGIN TOMORROW, BECAUSE
I'LL PROBABLY BE JUST REITERATING THE THINGS IF WE START
TODAY.
,
l
1
5 THE COURT: OKAY. JESSICA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

6 I NEED YOU TO COME BACK TO COURT TOMORROW MORNING AT
l
7
8
9:00. YOU MAY STEP DOWN TONIGHT, AND WAIT OUTSIDE FOR
JUST A FEW MINUTES.
l
9 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'LL TAKE THE EVENING l
10 RECESS. PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
11 CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. I WON'T SAY l
12 THE WHOLE THING TO YOU. I'LL OFFER YOU A COUPLE OF WAYS
13 TO REMEMBER IT. ONE IS EASY. IT'S LIKE, "WHAT HAPPENS 1
14
15
IN VEGAS, STAYS IN VEGAS."
COURTROOM STAYS HERE.
WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS
l
16
17
PERHAPS A DIFFERENT FORMULATION IS ONE THAT WAS
ON THE SIGNS ALL OVER THE NAVAL BASE WHERE I LIVED WHEN
l
18 I WAS A CHILD, AND IT SAID THIS -- THEY WERE VERY l
19 SECURITY CONSCIOUS; IT WAS A RESEARCH BASE -- IT SAID,
20 "WHAT YOU SEE HERE, WHAT YOU DO HERE, WHAT YOU HEAR 1
21 HERE, WHEN YOU LEAVE HERE, LET IT STAY HERE." AND I
22 WOULD LIKE YOU TO CONSIDER THAT AND FOLLOW THAT
l
23
24
ADMONITION.
DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU'VE HEARD TODAY. I
1
25 THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS PARTICIPATION 1
26 IN THIS CASE. LET'S RECONVENE AT 9:00 OUTSIDE THE
27 COURTROOM. THANK YOU. l
28 Ill
1
,
r 310
r 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN

[ 2 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT
r 4 THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE
r 5
6
COURTROOM.
MR. TROCHA, BATTING ORDER FOR TOMORROW MORNING,
r 7
8
PLEASE?
MR. TROCHA: WE'RE GOING TO BE FINISHING UP
r 9
10
WITH JESSICA, JULIO RAMIREZ, EDUARDO PUENTE, NATALIE
ELIAS, MARLA QUINTANILLA SHOULD FINISH OFF THE MORNING
[ 11 AND GO INTO THE AFTERNOON, AND THEN IN THE AFTERNOON WE
r 12
13
HAVE SEVERAL POLICE OFFICERS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: POLICE OFFICERS ARE LUCCHESI
L 14
15
AND --
MR. TROCHA: MARK LUCCHESI; A CIVILIAN WITNESS,
L 16
17
HESNEYDA BUENDIA -- THEY'RE TANDEM -- EULER; CRENSHAW;
GONZALEZ AND LUJAN.
[ 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'LL BE LUCKY TO GET
r 19
20
THROUGH ALL THE WITNESSES TOMORROW.
THE COURT: THAT'S FINE. I WANTED EVERYBODY TO
21 HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT TO BE PREPARED FOR. IT MAY VARY
[
22 SOMEWHAT, BUT THIS IS HELPFUL. LEAVE ANYTHING ON
[ 23 COUNSEL TABLE.
24 MR. TROCHA?
r 25 MR. TROCHA: WE HAVE ONE WITNESS THAT NEEDS TO

26 BE ORDERED BACK.
[ 27 THE COURT: BRING HIM OR HER IN. IS THERE A
r 28 WARRANT OUT FOR THIS PERSON?
r
311
l
1 MR. TROCHA: THERE IS.
1
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS EXHIBIT SITUATION IS 1
3 DIFFICULT FOR ME TO WORK WITH.
4 THE COURT: WE'LL ADDRESS IT IN A MOMENT. l
5 MR. TROCHA: THIS IS JULIO RAMIREZ. HE'S
6 INFORMED ME DUE TO HIS WORK SCHEDULE, HE WOULD PREFER TO
l
7
8
COME BACK ON MONDAY.
THE COURT:
I'M FINE WITH THAT AS WELL.
WHEN WAS HE LAST DUE IN COURT AND
l
9 WHY DID I ISSUE A WARRANT? l
10 MR. TROCHA: HE WAS DUE IN COURT YESTERDAY AT
~
11 9:00. 1
12 THE COURT: DID HE CALL YOU IN LIEU OF COMING
13 TO COURT OR CALL YOUR OFFICE? l
14
15
MR. TROCHA:
THE WARRANT TO BE ISSUED.
HE DID NOT. THAT IS WHY WE ASKED
BUT SINCE THEN AND NOW,
l
16
17
MELVIN CUELLAR FROM OUR OFFICE HAS GOTTEN AHOLD OF
MR. RAMIREZ -- AHOLD OF THE WITNESS, AND THERE IS NO
1
18 REASON TO BELIEVE HE WILL NOT BE HERE ON MONDAY. l
19 THE COURT: MONDAY IS APRIL THE 4TH; IS THAT
20 CORRECT? 1
21 MR. TROCHA: YES.
22 THE COURT: SIR, ARE YOU JULIO RAMIREZ?
l
23
24
MR. RAMIREZ:
THE COURT:
YES, I AM.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE THIS
l
25 AFTERNOON, SIR. I ISSUED A WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST. 1
26 THIS IS A SERIOUS CASE. I'M GOING TO DO WHATEVER I NEED
27 TO DO TO SEE THAT EACH SIDE HAS PEOPLE THAT THEY THINK l
28 ARE IMPORTANT AS WITNESSES BE HERE. IF THAT MEANS I
l
1
r 312
[
1 HAVE YOU ARRESTED AND HELD IN CUSTODY UNTIL YOUR
[ 2 TESTIMONY, I'LL DO THAT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
r 3
4
MR. RAMIREZ:
THE COURT:
YES, I DO, SIR.
THANK YOU. I'M GOING TO RECALL THE
[ 5
6
WARRANT THAT WAS ISSUED. I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT YOU
RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO
r 7
8
SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY IN
SAN DIEGO, ON THIS COMING MONDAY, APRIL THE 4TH, 2011,
r 9
10
AT 9:00A.M. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS ORDER, SIR?
MR. RAMIREZ: YES, I UNDERSTAND.
[ 11 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE
12 THEN.
r 13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL REPEAT WHAT I SAID WHEN
[ 14 THE PROSECUTOR WAS OUT IN THE HALL.

[ 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE EXHIBITS -- YOU KNOW,

17 IT'S FINE IF THIS IS THE WAY IT HAS TO BE, BUT I'M
[ 18 FINDING IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT TO WORK LIKE THIS,
r 19
20
BECAUSE I HAVE TO KEEP GOING IN THE CORNER TO LOOK AT
IT. AND ALSO THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I KNOW I'M HAVING
r 21
22
TROUBLE SEEING THE WITNESS WITH IT BEING THERE, SO I
WASN'T SURE IF MAYBE WE CAN MOVE IT BACK A FOOT OR
r[ 23 TWO.
-
24 THE COURT: I'LL INVITE BOTH OF YOU TO PUT YOUR
r 25
26
HEADS TOGETHER AND THINK ABOUT THAT. THE CONCERN I HAVE
IS HAVING IT UP HERE, UNLESS YOU HAVE THE WITNESS
[ 27 APPROACH THE DIAGRAM THE WHOLE TIME, IF THE DIAGRAM IS
28 TURNED SO THAT THE WITNESS CAN SEE IT, ABOUT HALF OF THE
r
r
313
l
1 JURORS CAN'T. SO IT PRETTY MUCH HAS TO BE IN THE WELL.
l
2 I'M HAPPY TO PLACE IT WHEREVER YOU ALL WOULD LIKE TO l
3 PLACE IT. I'M OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU MIND IF I TAKE FIVE
5 MINUTES, PUSH IT BACK AND SIT DOWN AND SEE IF THAT --
6 THE COURT: SURE. ANYTIME THERE IS AN EXHIBIT
l
7
8
ON THE EASEL THAT BLOCKS YOUR VIEW, LET ME KNOW AND
WE'LL HAVE IT MOVED. BUT MOVE IT RIGHT NOW.
l
9 MR. TROCHA: AS FOR THE TELEVISION, WE HAVE 200
l
10 PHOTOGRAPHS. WE WERE PLANNING ON HAVING IT REMAIN
11 THERE, BUT WE CAN MOVE IT IF THE COURT WISHES. l
12 THE COURT: WHERE THE TELEVISION IS, I THINK
13 EVERYBODY CAN SEE IT. THE PROBLEM WITH WHERE WE HAD THE 1
14
15
EASEL, THE EXHIBIT WAS AT AN ANGLE, AND SOME OF THE
JURORS COULDN'T SEE IF THE WITNESS COULD.
l
16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
FROM THE JURY.
I DON'T WANT IT TOO FAR AWAY
l
18 THE COURT: IT MAY BE SOMETHING WE JUST HAVE TO l
19 ADJUST AS WE GO ALONG IN TIME.
20 THANK YOU ALL. SEE YOU TOMORROW MORNING. WE 1
21 ARE IN RECESS.
l
22
23
(AT 4:27 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
, J
24 Ill
25 Ill 1
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
1
1
r
. ss


r
L
r C. SIINO
NO. 6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF .AND )
) NO. D060019
vs . )
)
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT .AND )
APPELLANT. )
) TRIAL
VOLUME 7
MARCH 30, 2011
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT :
REPORTED BY : PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO. 6263

r

)
r
OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACVSOO
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________
DEFENDANT . )
)
MARCH 30, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL
r
r
r
r
r
WITNESSES
r JESSICA LOPEZ
PAGE

315
337
r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 344
r EDUARDO PUENTE

358
364
r JOSUE GUTIERREZ

403
407
r HESNEYDA BUENDIA

NATALIE ELIAS
412

414
423
r
r
r
WITNESSES
r MARLA QUINTANILLA
PAGE

437
465
r SAMUEL EULER

JOHN GONZALEZ
490

496
520
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
r DEFENSE
DEFENSE y
z PHOTOGRAPH OF VIEW OF PARK
HANDWRITTEN LETTER
344
400
r PEOPLE'S 240 DVD/CD INTERVIEW WITH MS.

QUINTANILLA
459
r PEOPLE'S 240-A TRANSCRIPT OF DVD/CD INTERVIEW

WITH MS. QUINTANILLA
459
r PEOPLE'S 3
PEOPLE'S 37
AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
PHOTOGRAPH OF HOUSE AND CAR
501
502
r PEOPLE'S 38
PEOPLE'S 39
PHOTOGRAPH OF HOUSE AND CARS
PHOTOGRAPH OF CAMRY
503
503
r PEOPLE'S 40
PEOPLE'S 41
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND CAMRY
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND CAR
504
504
r PEOPLE'S 42 PHOTOGRAPH OF EL CAMINO 504
r PEOPLE'S 43
PEOPLE'S 44
PHOTOGRAPH OF SENTRA
PHOTOGRAPH OF FRANKLIN
505
505
r PEOPLE'S 45
PEOPLE'S 46
PHOTOGRAPH OF FRANKLIN
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
506
506
r PEOPLE'S 47
PEOPLE'S 48
506
507
r PEOPLE'S 49 PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY WITH CAR 507
r PEOPLE'S 50 PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY WITH CAR 507
PEOPLE'S 51 PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE OF CAR 508
r PEOPLE'S 52 PHOTOGRAPH OF PASSENGER SIDE OF

CAR
509
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE

CAMRY
510

CAMRY
510
r PEOPLE'S 55
PEOPLE'S 56
EL CAMINO
510
510
r PEOPLE'S 57
CAR
PHOTOGRAPH OF CAR 511
r PEOPLE'S 58
PEOPLE'S 59
511
512
r PEOPLE'S 60
SENTRA
CAR
512

CAR
512

SENTRA
513
r PEOPLE'S 63
PEOPLE'S 64
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND MAXIMA
513
514
r PEOPLE'S 65
MAXIMA
PHOTOGRAPH OF REAR SHOT OF
PASSENGER SIDE OF CAR
514
r PEOPLE'S 66 PHOTOGRAPH OF BACK OF CAR 519
r
r
r
r 314
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2011; 9:00AM
r 2
r 3
4
r 5
6
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU.
NICE TO SEE EACH ONE OF YOU. THE RECORD
r 7
8
WILL REFLECT THAT ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT,
r 9
10
THE CLERK HAS REMINDED -- A COUPLE OF
REMINDERS -- THAT I SHOULD GO OVER AGAIN OUR COURT
r 11 SCHEDULING IN TERMS OF THE DAYS OFF. DO FEEL FREE TO
r 12
13
WRITE THIS ON ONE OF THE PAGES OF YOUR NOTEBOOK WHERE
YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER NOTES AND THEN TEAR IT OUT IF
r 14
15
YOU WOULD LIKE TO.
WE GO ALONG.
I WILL ALSO TRY TO KEEP UPDATING AS
r 16
17
TOMORROW AND FRIDAY, WE WILL NOT BE IN SESSION.
SO WHEN WE RECESS TONIGHT, OUR NEXT HEARING DATE WILL BE
r 18 MONDAY MORNING. FRIDAY, APRIL THE 1ST, WE WILL NOT BE
r 19
20
IN SESSION.
SESSION.
FRIDAY, APRIL THE 15TH, WE WILL NOT BE IN
TUESDAY, APRIL THE 19TH, WHICH IS PASSOVER
r 21
22
DAY, WE WILL NOT BE IN SESSION.
AND, AS I INDICATED, WE WILL BREAK IN PLENTY OF
r 23
24
TIME FOR PEOPLE TO BE HOME OR IN OTHER PLACES BEFORE
SUNDOWN ON THE PRECEDING MONDAY. FRIDAY, THE 22ND, IS
r 25 GOOD FRIDAY; WE WILL BE DARK ON THAT DAY AS WELL.

I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT THE CASE WILL BE
r
26
27 CONCLUDING AROUND THAT TIME, BUT THAT IS, OF COURSE,
r 28 SUBJECT TO THE EXIGENCIES OF TRIAL WORK, AND WE WILL
r
, J
315
l
1 DEAL WITH IT AS WE MUST.
2 JUROR NO. 11: YOU DIDN'T SAY THE 8TH, DID YOU? l
3 THE COURT: NO, MA'AM, I DID NOT. WE'LL BE OFF
4 TOMORROW AND FRIDAY. OFF FRIDAY THE 1ST -- NOT THE
l
5
6
8TH -- THE 15TH AND THE 22ND, AND THEN OF COURSE THAT
TUESDAY, APRIL 19TH, WE WILL BE OFF.
l
7 JUROR NO. 9: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
l
8 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR THE
9 REMINDER. AND TO THE CLERK, LIKEWISE. l
10 MAY WE HAVE MS. LOPEZ, PLEASE.
1
11
12
13
GOOD MORNING, MS. LOPEZ.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING.
PLEASE BE COMFORTABLE.
,
14
15 YESTERDAY.
YOU ARE UNDER THE SAME OATH THAT YOU TOOK
1
17 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. l
19 JESSICA LOPEZ,
20 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY FIRST DULY
l
21
22
SWORN, TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
1
24 Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. LOPEZ. WELCOME BACK.
25 A. GOOD MORNING. 1
26 Q. MS. LOPEZ, YOU WEAR GLASSES, CORRECT?
27 A. YES, BUT I DON'T USE THEM. l
28 Q. OKAY. WHEN WERE YOU GIVEN GLASSES?
l
,
r 316
r 1 A. WHEN I WAS LIKE IN -- IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME.
r 2 IT'S BEEN YEARS.
r 3
4
Q. THE NIGHT OF SEPTEMBER 13TH, WHAT YOU WERE
TALKING ABOUT YESTERDAY, YOU WERE NOT WEARING YOUR
r 5
6
GLASSES THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q. THE LIGHTING AT THE PARK THAT NIGHT, HOW WOULD
YOU DESCRIBE IT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
IT'S NOT VERY BRIGHT.
WOULD YOU SAY DARK?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
NIGHT?
OKAY. THE TIME OF NIGHT, IT WAS AROUND 9:00 AT
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
MAYBE A LITTLE PAST NINE?
r 16
17
A. YES.
r
Q. AND ARE THERE ANY LIGHTS IN THE PARK?
18 A. YES, BUT THEY'RE LIKE -- YOU CAN HARDLY SEE.
r 19
20
IT'S LIKE THEY'RE NOT BRIGHT, BRIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO HEAR
r 21
22
WHAT WAS GOING ON; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU COULDN'T HEAR BECAUSE IT WAS FAR AWAY.
YES.
r 25 Q. WHEN THERE WERE VOICES -- YOU DESCRIBED HEARING
r 26
27
SOME VOICES -- YOU COULDN'T HEAR WHAT WAS BEING SAID
SPECIFICALLY MOST OF THE TIME.
r 28 A. YEAH. YES.
r
317
1
l
1 Q. COULD YOU ACTUALLY HEAR THE VOICES OR WERE YOU
2
3
4
JUST -- IT SEEMED LIKE THEY WERE TALKING?
A.
Q.
IT SEEMED LIKE THEY WERE ARGUING.
BUT YOU COULDN'T ACTUALLY HEAR ANY ARGUMENTS,
,
1
5
6
COULD YOU?
A. NO.
l
l
,
7 Q. AND WHEN YOU CAME HOME THAT NIGHT, YOU HAD
8 ARRIVED HOME APPROXIMATELY 10 TO 20 MINUTES BEFORE THE
9 SHOOTING HAPPENED, CORRECT? 1
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO YOU WERE ONLY WATCHING THE PARK FOR THE l
12 PRECEDING 10 OR 20 MINUTES BEFORE THE SHOOTING.
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q. NOW, YESTERDAY, MS. LOPEZ, YOU WERE HAVING SOME
TROUBLE REMEMBERING WHETHER OR NOT YOU WERE ACTUALLY
l
16 WATCHING WHEN THE SHOTS WENT OFF, WERE YOU NOT? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IN FACT, AT FIRST YOU STATED THAT YOU WERE NOT 1
19 WATCHING.
20 A. YES. l
21
22
Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: YOU ALSO STATED YESTERDAY
THAT YOU'RE HAVING SOME MEMORY PROBLEMS.
l
23 A. YES.
l
24 Q. YOU'RE TRYING TO FORGET THIS.
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. YOU'RE TRYING TO FORGET THIS BECAUSE IT WAS A
27 STRESSFUL THING TO WATCH. l
28 A. YES.
l
1
r 318
r 1 Q. YOU DON'T WANT TO REMEMBER IT; IS THAT FAIR TO
r 2 SAY?
F' 3 A. YES.
1._
4 Q. YESTERDAY WHEN YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T REMEMBER
r 5
6
SEEING THE SHOOTING, MR. TROCHA WAS READING YOU SOME
REPORTS, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
THE REPORTS HE WAS READING YOU WAS FROM A
r 9
10
POLICE REPORT.
A. YES.
DID YOU KNOW THAT?
[ 11 Q. THE POLICE REPORT WAS NOT WRITTEN BY YOU, WAS
r 12
13
IT?
A. NO.
r 14
15
Q. MS. LOPEZ, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WHEN HE WAS
READING THE REPORT TO YOU AND YOU WERE SAYING "YES,"
r 16 WERE YOU AGREEING THAT WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS IN THE
r 17
18
REPORT OR WERE YOU SAYING THAT YOU REMEMBERED THAT?
A. THAT I REMEMBERED.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
SO NOW YOU DO REMEMBER SEEING THE SHOOTING?
YES.
r 21
22
Q. DRAWING THE COURT AND COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO
THE HEARING TRANSCRIPT FROM APRIL 1, 2010 -- GIVE ME A
r 23
24
SECOND, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
r 25 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
r 26
27
Q. MS. LOPEZ, YOU GAVE TESTIMONY IN A PRIOR
HEARING ON THIS CASE, CORRECT?
r 28 A. YES.
[
319
1
1 Q. IN FACT, YOU'VE GIVEN PRIOR TESTIMONY A FEW

2 TIMES. 1
3 A. YES. "'9
,
}
4 Q. ONE OF THOSE TIMES WAS APRIL -- IT WOULD BE
,
5 APRIL 1ST OF 2010
1
6 A. YES.
7 Q. -- CORRECT? 1
8 AND THEN, AS NOW, YOU WERE UNDER AN OATH,

9 CORRECT? l
11 Q. YOU WERE UNDER AN OATH TO TELL THE TRUTH, l
12 CORRECT?
13 A. I DON'T GET THE QUESTION.
l
14
15
Q. YOU WERE GIVING TESTIMONY ON THAT DATE JUST
LIKE YOU ARE NOW, CORRECT?
1
16 A. YES. 1
17 Q. PAGE 55 OF THE HEARING TRANSCRIPT FROM
18 APRIL 1, 2010, LINES 17, 18. l
19 "QUESTION: WERE YOU WATCHING WHEN THE GUNSHOTS
20 HAPPENED? l
21
22
"ANSWER: NO."
DO YOU REMEMBER STATING THAT?
l
23 A. YES.
l
24 Q. AGAIN, SAME PAGE, LINES 23 THROUGH 25.
25 "WHEN WERE YOU WATCHING THE BEATING, WERE YOU l
26 INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE HOUSE?"
27 THE COURT: "WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING THE l
28 BEATING."
l
1
r 320
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

r 3
4
Q. "WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING THE BEATING, WERE YOU
INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE HOUSE?
r 5
6
"ANSWER: INSIDE."
IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID THEN?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU ALSO GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO POLICE DETECTIVE
r 9 ANGELICA NAVARRO ON THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
ON THE TRANSCRIPT OF THAT INTERVIEW, PAGE 21,
r 12
13
QUESTION FROM DETECTIVE NAVARRO:
"OKAY. THE GUY WITH THE GUN, WHERE -- DID YOU
r 14
15
SEE WHERE HE RAN?
"ANSWER: NO. NO. BECAUSE THAT WAS WHEN I
r 16 WENT TO MY ROOM TO CALL AGAIN."
r 17
18 A.
DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
YES.
r 19
20
Q. MS. LOPEZ, THE REASON I'M GOING THROUGH THESE
STATEMENTS WITH YOU IS BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO TELL ME NOW
r 21
22
IF YOUR MEMORY -- IF YOU WOULD TRUST YOUR MEMORY RIGHT
NOW.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
OKAY. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WHAT YOU'VE SAID AT
r 25 HEARINGS IN THE PAST AND TO DETECTIVES AND EVEN
r 26
27
YESTERDAY HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT INCONSISTENT FACTUALLY?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. OKAY. AND YOU'RE NOT LYING, CORRECT?
[
321
1
l
1 A. NO.
2 Q. YOU HONESTLY DON'T REMEMBER EVERYTHING THAT 1
3 HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, AM I RIGHT?
4 A. YES.
l
5
6
Q. OKAY. LET'S GO THROUGH WHAT YOU DO REMEMBER,
OKAY, CHRONOLOGICALLY.
l
7 WHEN YOU FIRST CAME HOME THAT NIGHT, YOU WERE
1
8 BEING DRIVEN HOME BY YOUR MOM, RIGHT?
9 A. MY AUNT. l
10 Q. YOUR AUNT. OKAY. THANK YOU.
11 AND YOU SAW PEOPLE IN THE PARK BY THE l
12 BATHROOMS?
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
OKAY. HOW MANY PEOPLE?
LIKE AROUND TWO.
1
16 Q. AND THEY WEREN'T FIGHTING AT THAT TIME? l
17 A. NO.
18 Q. AND, AGAIN, THIS IS ABOUT 10 OR 20 MINUTES l
19 BEFORE THE FIGHTING, RIGHT?
20 A. YES. l
21
22
Q.
A.
THEN YOU WENT INSIDE TO WATCH TV.
I WENT TO CHANGE FIRST.
l
23 Q. OKAY. YOU PUT ON YOUR PAJAMAS.
l
24 A. YES.
25 Q. BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING TO, I GUESS, UNWIND AND l
26 EVENTUALLY GO TO BED.
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND AT SOME POINT YOU HEARD NOISES OUTSIDE AND
l
,
r 322
r 1 THAT'S WHEN YOU LOOKED OUT.
r 2 A. YEAH, BECAUSE MY MOM WENT TO TOOK THE TRASH
r 3
4
OUT, AND THAT'S WHEN I HEARD.
Q. AND THAT'S WHEN YOU STARTED LOOKING OUT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN YOU SAW -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
r 7
8
WHERE WERE YOU LOOKING FROM WITHIN YOUR HOUSE?
THE PORCH OR INSIDE LOOKING OUT A WINDOW?

WAS IT
r 9 A. WINDOW.
r
10 Q. OKAY. AND YOU FIRST SAW JUST ONE PERSON
11 ATTACKING ANOTHER, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
AND AT THAT POINT IT WAS PUNCHING.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU REMEMBER KICKING?
r 16 A. NO, NOT AT THE MOMENT.
r 17
18
Q.
THAT POINT?
OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING ANY WEAPONS AT
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
THEN AS YOU WERE WATCHING, TWO MORE PEOPLE CAME
r 21
22
AND STARTED TO JOIN IN THE FIGHT, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q.
CORRECT?
AND AT THAT POINT IT WAS JUST PUNCHING,
r 25 A. YES.
r 26 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY WEAPONS AT THAT POINT?
27 A. NO.
r 28 Q. AND DURING THE FIGHT NOW -- NOW, WE ALREADY
r
,.,
J
323
1
2
SAID EARLIER YOU SAW SOME PEOPLE AT THE BATHROOMS.
NOW, DURING THE FIGHT, DID YOU SEE -- WHAT IS
,
l
j
3 THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT YOU SAW? NOT JUST PEOPLE

4 DOING THE BEATING, BUT THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO l
5
6
WERE IN THE PARK.
A.
HOW MANY WERE THERE?
INCLUDING THE PERSON ON THE GROUND OR --
l
7 Q. YES, INCLUDING THE PERSON ON THE GROUND. 1
8 A. LIKE AROUND FOUR OR FIVE.
9 Q. THAT CONVERSATION THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT l
10 BEFORE WITH DETECTIVE NAVARRO, DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING
11 HER THAT YOU SAW ABOUT 20 PEOPLE IN THE PARK? l
12 A. NO.
13 Q. IF I SHOWED YOU A TRANSCRIPT OF WHAT YOU SAID
l
14
15
THAT'S WRITTEN IN BOTH SPANISH AND ENGLISH -- LET ME
BACK UP.
l
16 YOU GAVE THAT INTERVIEW IN SPANISH, CORRECT? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DO YOU SPEAK BOTH LANGUAGES? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. ARE YOU MORE COMFORTABLE WITH SPANISH OR l
21
22
ENGLISH?
A. IT VARIES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
EQUALLY COMFORTABLE?
YEAH. YES.
l
25 Q. YOU WERE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES. l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. YOU'VE SPOKEN BOTH LANGUAGES -- YOU LEARNED l
28 THEM BOTH AT THE SAME TIME; IS THAT FAIR ENOUGH?
l
1
r 324
r 1 A. NO.
[ 2 Q. YOU LEARNED SPANISH FIRST AND THEN ENGLISH?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. BUT YOU'VE GONE TO SCHOOL IN THE
r 5
6
UNITED STATES AND YOUR CLASSES ARE ALL IN ENGLISH.
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. YOU SEEM FLUENT IN ENGLISH.
FLUENT IN ENGLISH?
YOU'D SAY YOU'RE
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
THE DETECTIVE IN SPANISH.
BUT THAT NIGHT YOU TALKED TO
YOU FELT MORE COMFORTABLE
r 12
13
SPEAKING TO HER IN SPANISH?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. THAT NIGHT -- IF I SHOWED YOU A TRANSCRIPT OF
WHAT YOU TOLD HER, WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION
r 16
17
AS TO WHETHER YOU TOLD HER THAT YOU SAW 20 PEOPLE IN THE
PARK?
r 18 A. I PROBABLY SAID IT THAT DAY, BUT NOW I CAN'T
r 19
20
REMEMBER EXACTLY HOW MANY IT WAS.
Q. OKAY. SO YOUR CURRENT RECOLLECTION IS, WHAT
r 21
22
DID YOU SAY, FIVE OR SIX OR
A. LIKE AROUND FOUR.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
FOUR OR FIVE?
YES.
[ 25 Q. BUT ON THAT DAY, THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING WHEN
26 YOU TALKED TO THE DETECTIVE, YOU'VE TOLD HER 20,
[ 27 CORRECT?
r 28 A. I CAN'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT.
c
325
, j
l
1 Q. WELL, TURNING THE COURT'S ATTENTION AND
2 COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO PAGE 9 OF THE TRANSCRIPT WITH 1
3 JESSICA LOPEZ BY DETECTIVE NAVARRO, WORDS OF JESSICA
4 LOPEZ, "I TOLD THEM THERE WAS A LOT. AND THEY ASKED l
,
1
5 APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY TO KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE TO SEND.
6 I SAID"
7 THE COURT: SLOWLY, PLEASE. SLOWLY.
J
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WILL START OVER, YOUR

9 HONOR. 1
11 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 1
12 "I TOLD THEM, 'WELL, THERE'S A LOT.' AND THEY
13
Q.
ASKED APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY TO KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE TO

l
14
15
SEND. I SAID, 'WELL, THERE'S ABOUT 20, BECAUSE IT WAS
THEM AND ANOTHER BIG GROUP OVER HERE.'"
1
16 DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT? l
17 A. NO.
18 Q. OKAY. NOW, YOUR ATTENTION DURING THIS FIGHT 1
19 WAS NOT CONTINUOUS, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. l
21 Q. BY THAT I MEAN YOU STOPPED WATCHING FOR PERIODS ~
1
22 OF TIME, RIGHT?
23 A. YES.
l
24 Q. AND YOU STOPPED WATCHING FOR PERIODS OF TIME
25 ONCE BECAUSE YOU WERE DIALING 911. l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND YOU WERE DIALING 911 FROM YOUR BEDROOM. l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r
L
326
r 1 Q. AND YOUR BEDROOM IS IN THE BACK OF YOUR HOUSE,

r 2 CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
AND WHERE YOU WERE WATCHING FROM IS IN THE
r 5
6
FRONT OF YOUR HOUSE.
A. YES.
r 7
8 911.
Q. SO YOU HAD TO WALK BACK TO YOUR BEDROOM TO DIAL
AND FROM YOUR BEDROOM YOU CAN'T SEE THE PARK.
[ 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q. AND HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO CALL 911 THAT
FIRST TIME, THE FIRST TIME YOU CALLED?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW LONG IT TOOK ME.
DO YOU HAVE A ROUGH ESTIMATE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
NO IDEA? ALL RIGHT.
r 16
17
BUT WHEN YOU RETURNED, YOU -- WHAT YOU SAW WAS
PEOPLE IN A DIFFERENT LOCATION, CORRECT?
[ 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. AND YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO TELL IF THOSE PEOPLE
WERE THE SAME PEOPLE YOU INITIALLY SAW FIGHTING, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU THOUGHT THEY MIGHT BE, RIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
IN FACT, YOU ASSUMED THAT THEY WERE.
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT YOU COULDN'T PICK OUT ANY DISTINGUISHING
[ 27 CHARACTERISTICS ABOUT THEM THAT WOULD HAVE GAVE YOU A
r 28 SOLID CONVICTION THAT THEY WERE THE SAME GROUP OF
l
327
1
l
1 PEOPLE, CORRECT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. AT THAT POINT, THAT'S WHEN YOU SAW WHAT I'M
4 GOING TO CALL THE VICTIM, THE PERSON WHO WAS GETTING l
5
6
BEATEN UP; HE WAS LAYING ON THE GROUND IN A DIFFERENT
LOCATION THAN WHEN YOU HAD FIRST LEFT, CORRECT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
AND AT THAT POINT YOU SAW THE GROUP OF PEOPLE
1
9 TO THE SIDE TALKING, RIGHT? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND WHERE WERE THEY LOCATED, BY THE -- l
12 A. SORRY.
13 Q. IT'S OKAY. WHENEVER YOU'RE READY.
l
14
15
A.
Q.
I'M READY.
AT THAT POINT, THE PEOPLE WHO YOU SAW ARGUING,
1
16 WERE THEY BY THE BENCHES OR BY THE TREES OR BY THE 1
17 HOUSES? WHERE WERE THEY?
18 A. I THINK IT WAS KIND OF BY THE FENCE. l
19 Q. BY THE FENCE THAT RUNS NEXT TO THE ALLEY,
20 RIGHT? l
21
22 HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL SAY IT ONCE, YOUR
I'M GOING TO ENTER THE WELL. IT WILL BE THE
l
23
24
LAST TIME, I HOPE.
l
25 Q. TURNING YOUR ATTENTION, MS. LOPEZ, TO l
26 PEOPLE'S 2, THE FENCE THAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT
27 RUNS ON WHAT WOULD BE ON THE EXHIBIT THE LEFT SIDE OF l
28 THE ALLEY -- EXCUSE ME -- IT WOULD BE THE RIGHT SIDE OF
l
,
r 328
[
1 THE ALLEY, CORRECT?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
FENCE.
AND THE PEOPLE WHO YOU SAW WERE OVER BY THE
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW CLOSE TO THE FENCE WERE THEY?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I CAN'T REMEMBER.
ALL RIGHT. DO YOU SEE THESE THREE DOTS HERE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
WOULD THAT BE AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF

[ 11 WHERE THE THREE WERE TALKING?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 14
15
WHEN YOU SAW THESE THREE PEOPLE TALKING, DID
YOU HEAR THEM TALKING OR WERE YOU JUST ASSUMING THAT
r 16 THEY WERE TALKING?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
I ASSUMED.
OKAY. YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY HEAR THEM?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
JUST THE ONE TIME.
YOU HEARD ONE COMMENT, WHICH WAS, "OH, WHERE
r 21
22
ARE YOU FROM?"
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q.
THAT?
WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHICH ONE OF THEM SAID
r 25
26
A.
Q.
NO.
WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL IF IT ACTUALLY CAME FROM

[ 27 THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE?
r 28 A. NO.
c
329
1
1
1 Q. COULD IT HAVE COME FROM THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO
2 WERE WATCHING? 1
3 A. MAYBE. I DON'T KNOW.
4 Q. YOU WERE LOOKING IN THAT AREA, RIGHT? l

l
,
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND THEN YOU SAW THOSE THREE PEOPLE OVER TO THE
7 SIDE, CORRECT?
I
8 A. YES.
9 Q. AND THEN YOU HEARD, "OH, WHERE ARE YOU FROM," l

10 RIGHT?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. BUT THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU HEARD THAT
13 INDICATED IT WAS THOSE THREE PEOPLE, WAS THERE?

l
,
1
14 A. NO.
15 Q. YOU JUST ASSUMED THAT.
16 A. YES. J
17 Q. DID YOU -- OKAY. SO YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO TELL
18 WHO SAID IT. 1

19 WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO ASCERTAIN WHO IT WAS
20 DIRECTED TO? l
21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?

1
23
24
A.
KNOW.
YES. WHO THERE WAS TELLING HIM. I DON'T
l
25 Q. OKAY. AND YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO DO THAT, l
26 CORRECT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. AND THE THREE PEOPLE WHO WERE STANDING, WERE
l
,
r 330
[
1 THEY MAKING ANY MOVEMENTS THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT THEY
r 2 WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
THEY WERE JUST STANDING?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE THEY LOOKING AT EACH OTHER?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I CAN'T SEE FAR AWAY.
IT WAS TOO FAR AWAY TO TELL WHICH WAY THEY WERE
r 9
10
FACING?
A. YES.
[ 11 Q. OKAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DESCRIPTION OF
r 12
13
THESE THREE PEOPLE YOU SAW TALKING.
YESTERDAY YOU SAID THAT, AS FAR AS YOU COULD
r 14
15
RECALL, ONE WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT AND THE OTHER
TWO WERE WEARING DARK CLOTHING, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DIRECTING THE COURT AND COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO
r 18 THE HEARING ON OCTOBER 6, 2010, PAGE 65, STARTING AT
r 19
20
LINE 22, AND IT'S GOING TO SPILL OVER TO LINE 1 ON PAGE
66 --
r 21
22
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
r 23
24
Q. "QUESTION: WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER THEIR
CLOTHES WERE LIGHT OR DARK?
r 25 "ANSWER: YES.
WHAT WERE THEY?
26 "QUESTION:
l 27 "ANSWER: DARK.
28 "QUESTION: OKAY. ALL THREE OF THEM WERE
[
r
331
,
l
1 WEARING DARK CLOTHES?
l
2
3
4 A.
"ANSWER:
NO.
YES."
DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT, MS. LOPEZ? , J
6
Q. OKAY. WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU TO LEARN THAT YOU
DID SAY THAT AT A PRIOR HEARING IN THIS CASE?
l
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. IT WOULD SURPRISE YOU?
~
9 A. NO. J
10 Q. LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT, MS. LOPEZ, BECAUSE
11 THIS IS IMPORTANT. WE WANT TO GET THE RIGHT ANSWER. l
THIS, WHAT I JUST READ YOU, IS SOMETHING THAT
12
13 WOULD NOT SURPRISE YOU, HAD YOU SAID IT, CORRECT?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THE REASON IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE YOU IS
1
16 BECAUSE, AGAIN, YOUR MEMORY IS A LITTLE FAINT, CORRECT? l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER STATING AT THE HEARING ON THIS 1
19 CASE ON APRIL 1, 2010, A DIFFERENT HEARING, THAT YOU
l
20
21
22
DON'T REMEMBER WHAT ANY OF THE ASSAILANTS WERE WEARING?
A.
Q.
NO.
WOULD THAT SURPRISE YOU IF YOU HEARD THAT, IF
, j
23 YOU LEARNED THAT YOU DID SAY THAT?

l
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IT WOULD SURPRISE YOU? l
27 Q. OKAY. AS FAR AS THE CLOTHES THAT THESE THREE l
28 MEN WERE WEARING, BESIDES THE COLOR, WERE YOU ABLE TO
,
l
J
r 332
r 1 TELL THE TYPE OF CLOTHING THAT IT WAS?

r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q. IS THE WORD "SHADOW" OR "SILHOUETTE"
APPROPRIATE WHEN DESCRIBING WHAT YOU SAW IN REGARDS TO
r 5
6
THESE THREE MEN?
A. CAN YOU REPHRASE IT, PLEASE?
r 7
8
Q. YES. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU SAW WITH
REGARD TO THESE THREE MEN AS A "SHADOW" OR A
r 9 "SILHOUETTE"?
A. YES.
r
10
11 Q. OKAY. BECAUSE IT WAS DARK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER THEY HAD FACIAL
r 14
15
HAIR?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 16
17
Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL IF THEY WERE HISPANIC,
r
WHITE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q.
BUILDS?
AND THEIR BUILDS -- WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL THEIR
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU STATED IN THE PAST THAT YOU THINK THE
r 23
24
PERSON WHO DID THE SHOOTING WAS THE SAME PERSON WHO
INITIALLY STARTED FIGHTING THE VICTIM WHEN YOU FIRST
r 25 STARTED WATCHING, CORRECT?
r 26 A. YES.
27 Q. THAT IS BASED ON YOUR ASSUMPTION, RIGHT?
r 28 A. YES.
r
333
1
l
1 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT.
2 A. NO. l
3 Q. YOU CAN'T PICK OUT AN ARTICLE OF CLOTHING OR A
4 SPECIFIC FEATURE OF THAT PERSON THAT WOULD LET YOU KNOW l
5
6
THAT IT IS THE SAME PERSON, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
7 Q. NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SHOOTER, BECAUSE YOU
THINK NOW THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN WATCHING WHEN THE
1
8
9 SHOTS TOOK PLACE, CORRECT? l

10 A. YES.
11 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO DESCRIBE -- RIGHT NOW, FROM l
12 MEMORY, ARE YOU ABLE TO DESCRIBE THE SHOOTER'S HAIR?
13 A. NO.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
DID HE HAVE HAIR?
I DON'T KNOW.
l
16 Q. POINTING TO THE INTERVIEW THAT NIGHT WITH l
17 DETECTIVE NAVARRO DIRECTING COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO
18 PAGE 12 OF THAT -- ACTUALLY, PAGE 11. l
19 "QUESTION: AND HIS HAIR DID HE HAVE HAIR?
20 DID YOU NOTICE WHAT TYPE OF HAIR" GOING ON TO PAGE 1
21
22
12 -- "IF IT WAS SHORT OR --
"ANSWER: NO. IT WASN'T LONG.
1
23
24
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
BALD?
IT WAS, LIKE, SHORT -- BETWEEN SHORT
l
25 AND -- I DIDN'T KNOW HOW I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION. l
26 "QUESTION: BUT HE DID HAVE HAIR?
27 "ANSWER: I THINK SO, YES." l
28 DO YOU REMEMBER MAKING THOSE STATEMENTS TO
l
1
r 334
r 1 DETECTIVE NAVARRO?
r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q. IF I SHOWED YOU A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT THAT I
JUST READ TO YOU, WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
OKAY. WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU IF YOU MADE THOSE
r 7
8
STATEMENTS?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
IT WOULD SURPRISE YOU?
NOT SURPRISE. IT'S JUST THAT I CAN'T REMEMBER
r 11 EXACTLY.
r 12
13
Q. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT AT THE TIME YOU MADE THAT
STATEMENT, SINCE IT WAS MADE THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING,
r 14
15
THAT AT THAT TIME YOU DID REMEMBER, IN FACT, THAT THE
SHOOTER HAD HAIR, BUT NOW ALMOST TWO AND A HALF YEARS
r 16 LATER YOU CAN'T REMEMBER?
r
17 A. YES.
18 Q. BUT AS FAR AS THE SHOOTER, WERE YOU ABLE TO
r 19
20
TELL WHETHER HE HAD ANY FACIAL HAIR?
A. NO.
r 21
22 ON?
Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHAT COLOR PANTS HE HAD
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL HIS RACE?
r 25 A. NO.
r
26 Q. DID HE HAVE GLASSES?
27 A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 28 Q. COULDN'T TELL?
r
335
l
l
1 A. NO.
2 Q. THE TYPE OF SHIRT HE HAD ON? NOT THE COLOR BUT l
3 THE TYPE.
4 A. TYPE, NO. l
5
6
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT TATTOOS?
NO.
DID YOU SEE ANY TATTOOS?
l
7 Q. OKAY. NOW, DURING THIS FIGHT LET'S MOVE
l
8 BACK TO WHEN THE FIGHTING WAS GOING ON DID YOU SEE
9 ANY OF THE ASSAILANTS TAKE OFF A PAIR OF GLOVES AND HAND 1
10 THEM TO ANOTHER ASSAILANT?
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OF THE ASSAILANTS TAKE OFF A
13 PAIR OF GLOVES AND HAND THEM TO ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO
l
14
15
WERE WATCHING?
A. NO.
l
16 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OF THE PEOPLE WATCHING TAKE OFF 1
17 A PAIR OF GLOVES AND HAND THEM TO ANY OF THE ASSAILANTS?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY GLOVES AT ALL?
20 A. NO. l
21
22
Q. MS. LOPEZ, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO
PEOPLE'S 2, YOU SEE THIS STREET HERE, FRANKLIN, WHERE
l
23 I'M POINTING, RIGHT?
l
24 A. YES.
25 Q. FROM YOUR VIEW, YOU'RE IN SORT OF THE AREA l
26 THAT'S IN THE CENTER BUT THE BOTTOM OF PEOPLE'S 2,
27 CORRECT? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 336
r 1 Q. DID YOU SEE OR NOTICE ANY CARS PARKED ON
r 2 FRANKLIN THAT NIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DIDN'T SEE ANY CARS?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION.
DID YOU SEE ANY CARS PULL UP WHILE YOU WERE --
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
I'M SORRY. THE ANSWER IS "NO"?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY GET OUT OF A CAR AND WALK
r 11 UP THE HILL INTO THE PARK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU SEE ANY FEMALES IN THE PARK?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
IS IT "NO" BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO TELL
r 16
17
WHAT GENDER THE PEOPLE ARE, OR ARE YOU SURE THAT ALL THE
PEOPLE WERE MEN?
r 18 A. I CAN HARDLY SEE AT NIGHT, SO I'M ASSUMING "NO"
r 19
20
BECAUSE GIRLS HAVE LONG HAIR -- WELL, MOST OF THEM,
so
r 21
22 HAIR.
Q. AND NOBODY HAD LONG -- LIKE YOU. YOU HAVE LONG
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY WITH HAIR SIMILAR TO
r 25 YOURS?
A. NO.
r
26
27 Q. MS. LOPEZ, DO YOU SEE THIS GENTLEMAN SITTING AT
r 28 DEFENSE TABLE, WEARING A BLACK SUIT?
r
337
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIM? l
3 A. NO.
4 Q. OKAY. YOU'VE SEEN HIM BEFORE, BUT AT PRIOR l
5
6
HEARINGS ON THIS CASE, RIGHT?
A. YES.
l
7 Q. BUT OTHER THAN THOSE PRIOR HEARINGS WHERE
l
8 YOU'VE SEEN THIS GENTLEMAN --
9 A. NO. l
10 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM OUTSIDE OF THOSE
l
11
12
13
HEARINGS?
A. NO.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
, J
14
15
THE COURT:
REDIRECT?
THANK YOU.
l
16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 1
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. THE ARGUMENT THAT COUNSEL WAS ASKING ABOUT, 1
19 THERE WERE THREE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN IT?
20 A. WHAT PART? l
21
22
Q.
THE FENCE.
THE ARGUMENT. THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ARGUING BY
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU SAID TO THE DETECTIVE THAT THEY WERE
1
25 ARGUING? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND AFTER THIS ARGUMENT, ONE OF THESE PEOPLE l
28 CAME AND SHOT THE VICTIM, RIGHT?
l
1
r 338
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. IN TERMS OF YOUR STATEMENTS TO THE POLICE, YOU
r 3
4
WERE ASKED ABOUT THESE STATEMENTS AT PRIOR HEARINGS,
CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT THEM TODAY.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT THEM YESTERDAY.
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU'VE HAD A CHANCE BETWEEN YESTERDAY AND TODAY
r 11 TO LOOK AT THE POLICE REPORT, CORRECT?
12 A. YES.
[ 13 Q. AFTER YOU LOOKED AT THE POLICE REPORT, DID YOU
r 14
15
SEE ANY ERRORS IN THE POLICE REPORT ABOUT STATEMENTS YOU
MADE?
[ 16 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I PROBABLY SAID IT AT THE
r
17 TIME WHEN IT WAS RECENTLY, BUT UNTIL NOW IT'S HARD TO
18 REMEMBER SOME OF IT.
r 19
20
Q. AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S TAKEN PLACE TWO TO
THREE YEARS AGO.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TRYING
r 23
24
TO REMEMBER EVERY DAY.
A. NOT TO REMEMBER, YES.
[ 25 Q. IN TERMS OF THE LAST HEARING, THE ONE IN
r 26
27
OCTOBER THAT COUNSEL WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT WHEN YOU WERE
ASKED WHETHER OR NOT YOU SAW THE BEATING, YOU RESPONDED
r 28 "NO" AT FIRST, CORRECT?
r
l
339
,
1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN YOU WERE GIVEN A CHANCE TO SEE YOUR
,
_J
3 POLICE REPORT AT THAT HEARING.

l
4
6
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
A CHANCE TO SEE PRIOR TESTIMONY, CORRECT?
YES.
,
7 Q. AND AFTER THAT, YOU WERE ABLE TO TESTIFY TO
l
8 WHAT YOU TOLD US TODAY AND YESTERDAY, CORRECT?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. THAT THERE WERE INITIALLY ONE PERSON BEATING
11 ONE PERSON, CORRECT? l
12 A. YES.
l
13
14
15
Q. THE PERSON WHO WAS DOING THE BEATING WAS
WEARING DARK CLOTHING.
A. YES.
,
16 Q. TWO MORE PEOPLE JOINED INTO THAT BEATING, l
17 CORRECT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WAS WEARING LIGHT-COLORED
20 CLOTHING. l
21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
THE OTHER ONE WAS WEARING DARK-COLORED
l
23
24
CLOTHING.
A. YES.
l
25 Q. AND THEY ALSO BEAT THE VICTIM. l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. YOU TESTIFIED AT THOSE HEARINGS THAT YOU HAD l
28 CALLED 911 IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS BEATING.
l
,
r 340
[
r 2 Q. YOU CALLED 911 FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE MIDDLE
r 3
4
OF THIS BEATING.
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q. WHEN YOU CAME BACK, THE BEATING WAS STILL
TAKING PLACE AND THEN IT STOPPED, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
THIS IS ALL WHAT YOU SAID IN THE PRIOR
r 9
10
TESTIMONY AND YOUR PRIOR STATEMENTS, CORRECT?
A. YES.
[ 11 Q. YOU SAW AN ARGUMENT IN THESE PRIOR STATEMENTS
c 12
13
AND PRIOR TESTIMONIES.
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AS A RESULT OF THIS ARGUMENT, ONE OF THE PEOPLE
FROM THE GROUP WENT AND SHOT THE VICTIM.
[ 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR
17 SPECULATION.
r 18 THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED.
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
THE PERSON WHO SHOT THE VICTIM WAS THE ONE
r 23
24
WEARING DARK-COLORED CLOTHING, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. AND YOU'VE TESTIFIED OVER AND OVER THAT IT'S
r 26
27
THE SAME PERSON THAT YOU INITIALLY SAW BEATING THE
VICTIM THE FIRST TIME.
r 28 A. YES.
r
l
1 Q. AND YOU SAID THROUGHOUT THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE
341
,
2 WHERE THESE PEOPLE RAN OR WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, BECAUSE l
3 YOU CALLED 911 FOR THE SHOOTING.
4 A. YES. l
5
6
Q. THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE SAID IN YOUR PRIOR
STATEMENTS.
l
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. COUNSEL WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT SHADOWS.
9 WERE SHADOWS FIGHTING? l
10 A. NO.
l
11
12
Q.
A.
PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING, CORRECT?
PEOPLE, YES. ,
13
14
15
Q.
A.
Q.
THESE PEOPLE WERE WEARING CLOTHING, CORRECT?
YES.
NOW, YOU'VE TESTIFIED BEFORE THAT YOU COULDN'T
,
16 SEE COLORS. BUT YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN l
17 LIGHT AND DARK.
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. SUCH AS, ARE YOU WEARING A DARK-COLORED
20 SWEATSHIRT TODAY OR A LIGHT-COLORED SWEATSHIRT? l
21
22
A.
Q.
DARK.
IS THE COURT REPORTER IN FRONT OF YOU WEARING A
l
23 LIGHT-COLORED TOP OR A DARK-COLORED TOP?
l
24 A. LIGHT.
25 Q. DOES ANYTHING APPEAR TO BE SHADOWS TO YOU? l
26 A. NO.
l
27
28
Q. THERE ARE SHADOWS IN THE PARK BECAUSE IT WAS
DARK, CORRECT? ,
l
r 342
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. BUT THESE WERE DEFINITELY PEOPLE THAT YOU SAW
r 3
4
FIGHTING.
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
SHOT.
AND IT WAS DEFINITELY PEOPLE YOU SAW GETTING
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
AND IT WAS DEFINITELY A PERSON WHO WAS DOING
r 9 THE SHOOTING; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
AND IT WASN'T A PERSON WITH LONG HAIR.

12 A. NO.
[ 13 Q. BECAUSE, AS YOU SAID, YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY
[ 14 WITH LONG HAIR IN THE PARK.

15 A. YES.
r 16
17
Q. MS. LOPEZ, GIVEN THAT THE PARK IS LONG, AS YOU
LOOK AT IT FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT FROM WHERE YOU'RE

[ 18 STANDING, AS OPPOSED TO BEING WIDE, COULD THERE HAVE
r 19
20
BEEN PEOPLE DOWN BY THE PARKING LOT IN THAT PARK THAT
YOU COULDN'T SEE AT ALL?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
PROBABLY. I DON'T KNOW.
YOU CAN'T SEE FOREVER, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
NOW, IN TERMS OF THE YELLING YOU SAW -- OR,
r 25 EXCUSE ME -- THE YELLING YOU HEARD, IT CAME FROM THE
r 26
27
PARK, THOUGH, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. IT WASN'T COMING FROM A NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE, WAS
r
343
l
l _j
1 IT?
2 A. NO. l
3 Q. IT WASN'T COMING FROM THE STREET, WAS IT?
4 A. NO.
l
5
6
Q. IF SOMEBODY WAS YELLING ON THE STREET, DO YOU
THINK THAT WOULD HAVE GRABBED YOUR ATTENTION?
l
7 A. NO.
l
8 Q. NO? IF THERE WAS A FIGHT HAPPENING ON THE
9 STREET AS OPPOSED TO IN THE PARK, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD l
10 HAVE NOTICED?
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. NO? WHY IS THAT?
13 A. BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE.
1
14
15
Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO NOTICE THE FIGHT IN THE PARK,
THOUGH, CORRECT?
l
16 A. YES. l
17 Q. WHY IS IT THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE THE FIGHT
18 IN THE PARK? l
19 A. BECAUSE I WAS AT THE HIGH TOP WHERE YOU CAN
20 SEE. l
21
22
Q.
A.
CAN YOU SEE INTO THE STREET FROM YOUR HOUSE?
NO.
l
23 Q. WHEN YOU PULLED UP -- WHEN YOU PULL UP ON
l
24 FRANKLIN, YOU WERE ON THE STREET AT THAT TIME, CORRECT?
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WAS THERE FIGHTING ON THE STREET AT THAT TIME?
27 A. NO. 1
28 Q. WERE THERE -- WAS THERE ANYBODY ON THE STREET
l
l
r 344
r 1 AT THAT TIME?
r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
THERE'S LIGHTING ON THAT STREET, CORRECT?
HARDLY, BUT, YEAH.
r 5
6
Q. IT'S NOT PITCH-BLACK AND YOUR CAR HAS
HEADLIGHTS.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
SO IN TERMS OF THE LIGHTING, YOU WOULD BE ABLE
r 9 TO SEE WHAT'S IN FRONT OF YOUR CAR, CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYBODY SHOT BEFORE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO SEE IT AGAIN?
r 14
15
A. NO.
r 16
17
THE COURT: CROSS?

[ 18 SHOWING COUNSEL WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS DEFENSE
r 19
20
z.
r 21
22
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT Z, PHOTOGRAPH OF VIEW OF
PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 23
24
RECROSS EXAMINATION
r 25 Q. MS. LOPEZ, SHOWING YOU A PHOTOGRAPH, DEFENSE
r 26
27
Z -- I APOLOGIZE FOR IT BEING OUT OF ORDER TO THE
COURT -- IS THAT A VIEW FROM YOUR HOUSE INTO THE PARK?
r 28 A. YES.
r
345
l
l
1 Q. THAT'S DURING THE DAYTIME, THOUGH, CORRECT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. THIS OBJECT IN THE BOTTOM OF THE PHOTO APPEARS
4 TO BE A SHINGLED ROOF, CORRECT? l
A. YES.
5
6 Q. THAT SHINGLED ROOF BLOCKS YOUR VIEW OF WHERE

1
7
8
THE ALLEY MEETS FRANKLIN, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
9 Q. IS THAT YOUR RECOLLECTION OF THE VIEW FROM YOUR l
10 HOUSE?
11 A. YES. l
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PERMISSION TO PUBLISH TO THE
13 JURY?
l
14
15
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
WISH TO BE HEARD?
NO OBJECTION.
l
l
18 THE COURT: MS. LOPEZ, THANK YOU. YOU'LL BE l
19 FINISHED NOW. PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU
20 TESTIFIED ABOUT OR ANYTHING THAT WENT ON IN THIS l
21 COURTROOM WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN THE INVESTIGATORS.
22 OKAY?
l
23 THE WITNESS: OKAY. l
24 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD DAY TO YOU AND
25 THANK YOU. l
26 MR. TROCHA.
27 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, THE PEOPLE CALL l
28 EDUARDO PUENTE.
l
~
J
r 346
r 1 THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE
r 2 EVIDENCE YOU SHALL GIVE IN THIS MATTER SHALL BE THE
r 3
4
HELP YOU GOD?
r 5
6
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
YES.
r 7
8
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR.
r 9 GOOD MORNING. MR. PUENTE IS ASSISTED BY THE CERTIFIED
r 10
11
COURT INTERPRETER.

[ 13 THE WITNESS: EDUARDO PUENTE, E-D-U-A-R-D-0,
r 14
15
P-U-E-N-T-E.
COURT: THANK YOU.
r 16
17

[ 18 EDUARDO PUENTE,
r 19
20
PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN THROUGH
r 21
22
FOLLOWS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. PUENTE.
r 25 A. GOOD MORNING.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE A BROTHER NAMED MELITON?
YES.
r 28 Q. AND BEFORE WE STARTED -- YOU SPEAK BOTH ENGLISH
r
347
l
l
1 AND SPANISH, CORRECT?
2 A. ITALIAN, ALSO. l
3 Q. WHAT'S YOUR MOST COMFORTABLE LANGUAGE TO SPEAK
4 IN? l
5
6
A.
Q.
I PREFER SPANISH.
SO WE'LL USE A SPANISH INTERPRETER TODAY.
l
7
8
GOING BACK TO 2008, SPECIFICALLY SEPTEMBER OF
2008, DID YOU HAPPEN TO HEAR OR WITNESS A SHOOTING IN
l
9 THE AREA OF YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. ON THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, WHERE WERE YOU? l
12 A. WE WERE IN THE LIVING ROOM OF THE HOUSE,
13 WATCHING A BOXING MATCH.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
ABOUT WHAT TIME OF DAY WAS THIS?
A LITTLE BIT AFTER 8:00.
l
16 Q. NOW, IS THERE A PARK NEAR YOUR BROTHER'S HOME? l
17 A. YES, RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET.
18 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS PHOTOGRAPH, l
19 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, CAN YOU SEE IT FROM WHERE YOU'RE
20 SITTING? l
21
22
A.
Q.
THE PARK, YES. IT'S THE ONE RIGHT THERE.
AND FROM WHERE YOUR BROTHER'S HOME IS, COULD
l
23
24
YOU SEE AT LEAST INTO THE PARK SOMEWHAT?
A. YOU COULD SEE ABOUT THREE-FOURTHS OF THE PARK
l
25 OR HALF THE PARK. l
26 Q. COULD YOU ALSO SEE THE HOUSES ON THE SAME SIDE
27 OF THE STREET AS THE PARK? l
28 A. YES, BECAUSE THERE'S AN ALLEY, AND ON THE SIDE
l
l
r 348
r 1 THERE'S HOUSES.
r 2 Q. NOW, AS YOU'RE WATCHING THIS BOXING MATCH, DID
r 3
4
YOU HEAR ANYTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY OUTSIDE?
A. NO. WE WERE SO EXCITED WATCHING THE MATCH THAT
r 5
6
WE DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING OUTSIDE.
Q. DID YOU HEAR ANY SHOUTING OR OTHER SORTS OF
r 7
8
SOUNDS?
A. NOTHING.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
AT SOME POINT, THOUGH, DID YOU HEAR GUNSHOTS?
YES.
r 11 Q. WHERE DID YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS COME FROM?
r 12
13
A. WELL, IT SOUNDED LIKE THEY WERE COMING FROM THE
PARK, BUT WE WERE NOT SURE IF THEY WERE COMING FROM THE
r 14
15
PARK OR FROM THE SIDE OF THE STREET.
Q. HOW MANY GUNSHOTS DID YOU HEAR?
r 16 A. IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER, BECAUSE IT HAPPENED

17 QUICKLY. IT COULD HAVE BEEN THREE OR FOUR, BUT IT
r 18 HAPPENED REALLY QUICKLY.
r 19
20
Q. THESE GUNSHOTS, WERE THEY ONE AFTER ANOTHER OR
WERE THERE BREAKS BETWEEN THEM?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO, NOT A LOT OF BREAKS. IT WAS QUICK.
WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER HEARING THE GUNSHOTS?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
WE OPENED THE DOOR AND WE LOOKED OUT.
THIS DOOR THAT YOU OPENED, DOES IT OPEN ONTO
r 25
26
THE STREET?
A. IT'S TO THE PORCH THAT MY BROTHER HAS.
r 27 Q. DOES IT FACE THE STREET?
r 28 A. YES.
r
349
l
l
1 Q. WHEN YOU OPENED THE DOOR AND LOOKED OUTSIDE,
l
2
3
4
WHAT DID YOU SEE?
A.
Q.
I FIRST SAW PEOPLE RUNNING.
HOW MANY PEOPLE DID YOU SEE RUNNING?
,
J
5 A. IT'S HARD TO SAY, BECAUSE EVERYTHING HAPPENED

l
6
7
SO QUICKLY.
Q. WAS IT MORE THAN ONE PERSON?
,
J
8 A. YES, IT WAS MORE THAN ONE PERSON.
9 Q. WAS IT MORE THAN THREE PEOPLE? 1

10 A. YES.
11 Q. WERE THERE 10 PEOPLE RUNNING? l
12 A. I CAN BE SURE THAT THERE WAS FIVE OR SIX, BUT I
13 DON'T KNOW IF THEY WERE ALL INVOLVED IN THAT. BUT I SAW
l
14
15
THEM RUNNING EVERY WHICH WAY.
Q. WERE THEY RUNNING IN THE STREET?
l
16 A. THE ONLY THING THAT I SAW IN THE STREET WAS TWO l
17 WOMEN WALKING.
18 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THESE WOMEN FOR THE JURY? l
19 A. THERE WAS TWO WOMEN, A LITTLE BIT FAT, WITH ALL
20 DUE RESPECT IF THEY'RE HERE. l
21
22
Q. WHEN YOU SAY THEY'RE "A LITTLE BIT FAT," WHAT
WOULD YOU MEAN BY THAT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THEY WERE OVERWEIGHT, LONG HAIR.
WHERE WERE THEY COMING FROM?
l
25 A. FROM THE DIRECTION OF WHERE THE YOUNG MAN WAS l
26 HOLDING HIS STOMACH, THE ONE THAT HAD BEEN SHOT.
27 Q. AT SOME POINT -- WELL, WHERE YOU WERE STANDING l
28 IN YOUR BROTHER'S DOORWAY, FROM THAT LOCATION COULD YOU
l
l
r 350
r 1 SEE THE PERSON WHO HAD BEEN SHOT?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
BEEN SHOT?
YOU COULD SEE THE PERSON IN THE PARK THAT HAD
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE IN THE PARK WAS THIS PERSON?
r 7
8
A. WELL, THE PARK KIND OF GOES UPHILL AND THEN
DOWNHILL, AND HE WAS ON THE FIRST PART GOING UP.
r 9
10
Q.
DOWN?
WHEN YOU SAW HIM, WAS HE STANDING OR LYING
r 11 A. NO. HE WAS LYING DOWN, HOLDING HIS STOMACH AND

12 TURNING.
r 13 Q. THESE WOMEN, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THEM, WHERE
r 14
15
WERE THEY IN RELATION TO THIS BOY IN THE PARK?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST SAW THAT THEY WERE
r 16
17
COMING, WALKING REALLY FAST.
Q. WHEN YOU SAW THEM, WERE THEY ON THE STREET OR
r 18
19
WERE THEY IN THE PARK, WALKING ONTO THE STREET?
A. BY THE PARK, TOWARDS THE STREET.
r 20 Q. WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, WE
CAN SEE THE PARK ON THIS SIDE, CORRECT, MR. PUENTE?
r 21
22 A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. AND ON THIS SIDE WE CAN SEE THE HOUSES WE'VE
TALKED ABOUT.
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS DIRT ALLEY THAT RUNS
BETWEEN THE PARK AND THE HOUSES?
r 28 A. WELL, I'VE SEEN IT ONLY WHEN I GO TO MY
r
351
l
1 BROTHER'S HOUSE.
2 Q. IN RELATION TO WHEN YOU SAW THE WOMEN, WHERE l
3 WERE THEY IN RELATION TO THE DIRT ALLEY?
4 A. THEY WERE COMING DOWN. l
Q. TOWARDS FRANKLIN?
5
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. WHEN THEY GOT TO FRANKLIN, DID THEY GO TOWARDS
40TH OR DID THEY GO TOWARDS YOUR HOUSE?
l
9 A. NO. THEY TURNED RIGHT THERE BY FRANKLIN TO THE l
10 RIGHT.
11 Q. SO WALKING AWAY FROM YOU? l
12 A. WALKING AWAY FROM EVERYBODY.
13 Q. DID YOU ALSO SEE ANY MEN OR BOYS COME FROM THE l
14
15
PARK?
A. I SAW PEOPLE JUMPING OVER THE HOUSES.
l
16 Q. WHICH HOUSES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
l
17 A. THE ONES THAT ARE ON THE SIDE NEXT TO THE
18 ALLEY. l
19 Q. THE ONES ACROSS THE STREET FROM YOU? ~
20 A. YES, IN FRONT OF MY BROTHER'S HOUSE.

j
21 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE DID YOU SEE JUMPING THOSE
22 FENCES OF THOSE HOUSES?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THREE OR TWO.
DID YOU SEE WHERE THESE MEN WERE COMING FROM?
l
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. DID YOU SEE WHAT DIRECTION THEY WERE MOVING
27 TOWARDS? l
28 A. JUST JUMPING OVER THE FENCES BY THE HOUSES.
l
1
r 352
r 1 THAT'S ALL I SAW.
r 2 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE THESE -- WHICH HOUSE WERE
r
3 THESE MEN JUMPING THE FENCES OF?
4 A. THE FIRST ONES THAT ARE THERE.
r 5
6
Q. IF YOU COULD, WALK DOWN AND JUST POINT OUT THE
HOUSES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
THESE ARE THE HOUSES THAT THEY WERE JUMPING.
AND YOU'VE INDICATED THE HOUSES RIGHT NEXT TO
r 9 THE PARK, RIGHT NEXT TO THE DIRT ALLEY.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES. THIS IS THE ALLEY.
DID YOU SEE WHERE THESE MEN WENT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
AT SOME POINT AS YOU'RE WATCHING, DID YOU SEE
r 14
15
ANYBODY IN THE YARDS OF THE HOUSES ACROSS THE STREET
FROM YOU?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
PLEASE RESUME YOUR SEAT.
r 18 DID YOU SEE POLICE THERE THAT NIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN DID YOU SEE THE POLICE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
ABOUT FIVE SECONDS LATER, THE POLICE WAS THERE.
FIVE SECONDS AFTER THE SHOOTING OR FIVE SECONDS
r 23
24
AFTER YOU CAME OUTSIDE?
A. AFTER THE GUNSHOTS.
r 25
26
Q. WHEN THE GUNSHOTS HAPPENED, DID YOU IMMEDIATELY
GO OUTSIDE TO SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

r 27 A. I WENT DOWN TO THE SIDEWALK, AND THEN I SAW THE
r 28 POLICE AND EVERYTHING THAT WAS HAPPENING, THE PARAMEDICS
r
~
,
!
'
353
,
I
1 THAT WERE TRYING TO HELP THE KID THAT WAS ON THE GROUND.
2 AND THAT'S ALL I SAW. )
3 Q. MR. PUENTE, DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO THE

4 POLICE THAT NIGHT OR THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF THAT l
5
6
MORNING?
A. NO.
l
7 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO THE POLICE AFTER l
8 THIS INCIDENT?
9 A. I WAS NOT ASKED ANYTHING THAT NIGHT.
10 Q. AT SOME POINT DID THE POLICE COME AND TALK TO
11 YOU ABOUT THIS? l
12 A. THE REASON I WAS THERE IS BECAUSE THE STREET
13 WAS CLOSED OFF AND MY CAR WAS IN FRONT OF MY BROTHER'S l
14
15
HOUSE. AND I WENT TO TOLD THE OFFICER THAT I HAD TO
LEAVE BECAUSE I HAD TO GO TO WORK THE NEXT DAY, AND HE
l
16 TOLD ME TO LEAVE MY ADDRESS, MY TELEPHONE NUMBER, AND MY
l
17 NAME, AND THAT I COULD LEAVE, BUT THAT MY CAR COULD NOT
l
18
19
20
LEAVE THE STREET.
Q.
AND THAT WAS IT. THEN I WAS LET GO.
AND THEN AT A LATER TIME THE POLICE CAME AND
TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THE SAME STUFF WE'RE TALKING TO YOU
, )
21 ABOUT TODAY?
22 A. NO. AND THEN I WAS SURPRISED THAT I HAD TO
l
23
24
COME TO COURT TO TESTIFY ABOUT THIS SEVEN MONTHS LATER.
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO A DETECTIVE ED
l
25 VALENTIN ABOUT THIS? l
26 A. NO. I WAS NEVER ASKED ANYTHING UNTIL I CAME
27 HERE. l
28 Q. DISCOVERY PAGE 421.
l
1
r 354
r
L
1 LET ME SHOW YOU JUST THIS PAGE, MR. PUENTE.
r 2
3 A.
DO YOU SEE THIS STATEMENT WITH YOUR NAME ON IT?
YES.
r 4 Q. DO YOU READ ENGLISH, AS WELL AS SPEAK IT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
IF YOU COULD, READ THE PARAGRAPH TO YOURSELF
r 7
8
SILENTLY.
A. THIS IS WHAT I TOLD THE DETECTIVE THAT NIGHT,
r 9
10
THE ONE THAT LET ME GO HOME, SO HE COULD LET ME GO HOME.
Q. SO THIS IS A STATEMENT YOU DID TELL THE POLICE?
r 11 A. TO THE DETECTIVE, YES. IT WAS A DETECTIVE.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL TELLING THE DETECTIVE ON THAT

r 13 NIGHT THAT YOU SAW TWO GUYS RUNNING ACROSS THE STREET;
r 14
15
THEY HAD BEEN HIDING IN THE BACK YARD OF THE HOUSE
ACROSS THE STREET?
r 16
17
A.
ANYTHING.
I NEVER SAID ANYTHING. I NEVER TOLD THEM
r 18 Q. SO WHEN YOU TOLD THE DETECTIVE YOU SAW PEOPLE
r 19
20
HIDING AT 4081 CUYAMACA, OR FRANKLIN, AT THIS HOUSE --
YOU NEVER SAID THAT?

MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
r 21
22 THE WITNESS: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING.
r 23
24
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
r 25 Q. WHERE WOULD THE DETECTIVE HAVE GOTTEN THIS
r 26
27
INFORMATION FROM, MR. PUENTE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR
28 SPECULATION.
r
r
~
I
J
355
~I
1
2
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED. PERMISSIBLE ON CROSS.
THE REASON WAS IT WAS LATE. I
, J
!
j
3 HAD TO GO TO WORK THE NEXT DAY, AND I TOLD THE DETECTIVE

4 I HAD TO LEAVE. AND WE WERE THERE, MY BROTHER AND MY l
5
6
NEPHEW. WE WERE TALKING. THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE
TELLING THE DETECTIVE WHAT HAD HAPPENED.
l
7
8
I NEVER SPOKE AT ALL. THE REASON WHY THE
DETECTIVE HAD MY INFORMATION IS BECAUSE I HAD TO GIVE IT
l
9 TO HIM SO THAT HE WOULD LET ME GO. l
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. THIS INFORMATION YOU GAVE IS ESSENTIALLY THE l
12 SAME INFORMATION YOU TOLD US TODAY.
13 A. YES, THE ADDRESS TO MY HOME, MY NAME AND l
14
15
EVERYTHING.
Q. AS WELL AS THE TWO HEAVY-SET WOMEN YOU SAW
l
16
17
WALKING FROM THE PARK.
l
A. HE NEVER ASKED ME ABOUT THAT AND I NEVER SPOKE
18 TO HIM ABOUT ANY OF THAT. 1
19 Q. EXCEPT, AS YOU SAW IN YOUR STATEMENT, THOSE
20 WORDS APPEARED IN YOUR STATEMENT. l
21 A. HE MUST HAVE HEARD THEM FROM MY BROTHER OR MY
22 NEPHEW, BECAUSE I NEVER SPOKE AT ALL.
l
23
24
Q. YOU TOLD THE DETECTIVE THAT YOU WERE WATCHING A
BOXING MATCH AT YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE.
l
25 A. I NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT THE BOXING l
26 UNTIL THE FIRST TIME I CAME TO COURT.
27 Q. YOU WOULD AGREE THAT YOU'VE SEEN THIS STATEMENT l
28 IN COURT TODAY, CORRECT, SIR?
1
l
r 356
r 1 A. YES. YES. I JUST READ IT.
r 2 Q. THE INFORMATION IN THE REPORT IS WHAT YOU HAVE

3 TESTIFIED TO IN COURT, CORRECT?
r 4 A. YES, THE FIRST TIME AND RIGHT NOW.
5
r 6
Q.
A.
THE BOXING MATCH WAS ONE THING.
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
THE SHOOTING WAS ANOTHER THING.
YES.
r 9 Q. THE HEAVY-SET WOMEN COMING FROM THE PARK WAS

10 ANOTHER THING.
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
STREET.
THE POLICE ARRIVING, WOMEN WALKING DOWN THE
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN WHAT WE'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT
r 16
17
WITH THE TWO GUYS JUMPING THE FENCES.
A. YES.
r 18 Q. AND THEN HIDING IN THE FRONT YARD OF THE HOUSE
r 19
20
ACROSS THE STREET.
A. YES. BUT I SAID THAT THE FIRST TIME I CAME TO
COURT. I NEVER TOLD THE DETECTIVE ANY OF THAT. HE

r 21
22 NEVER ASKED ME ANYTHING.
r 23
24
Q. THESE THINGS, THOUGH, THAT YOU TESTIFIED TO ARE
THE THINGS YOU'VE ACTUALLY SEEN.
r 25 A. YES. THAT WAS ALL I SAW.
26 Q. SO WHETHER OR NOT THE DETECTIVE HAS THEM IN THE
r 27 REPORT OR NOT, THESE ARE THE EVENTS THAT YOU WITNESSED
28 THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING.

r
r
~
357
, I
i
J
2
1 A.
Q.
YES, EXACTLY.
LAST THING, MR. PUENTE. AS YOU'RE ON THE
, J
3 STREET IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SHOOTING, YOU SAW TWO

4 HEAVY-SET WOMEN, CORRECT?
1 J
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU EVER SEE A THIRD SMALLER, THINNER
1
7 WOMAN?
l
8
9
A. THEN THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE.
TOGETHER, RUNNING.
THEY'RE ALL
THEN THE NEIGHBORS CAME OUT, AND
, J
10 THERE WAS PEOPLE WALKING EVERYWHERE, SO I DON'T REMEMBER
11 SEEING ANYBODY. 1
12 Q. MR. PUENTE, DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET, DID YOU
13 EVER SEE A MAN AND A WOMAN ARGUING? 1
14
15
A.
Q.
NO. NO. EVERYTHING HAPPENED QUICKLY.
MR. PUENTE, I WANT TO HAVE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT
1
16 THE MAN TO YOUR FAR LEFT IN THE BLACK SUIT AND WHITE
l
17 SHIRT.
18 DID YOU SEE THAT MAN ACROSS THE STREET? l
19 A. I HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM. NEVER SEEN HIM IN MY
1
20
21
22
LIFE.
Q.
A.
YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT MAN STANDING BY A GRAY CAR?
NO. NO. I'VE NEVER SEEN HIM IN MY LIFE.
, J
23
24
Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT MAN ARGUING WITH A SHORTER
WOMAN WITH DYED BLONDE HAIR?
l
25 A. WELL, EVERYTHING HAPPENED QUICKLY. l
26 Q. DID YOU SEE THAT MAN RUNNING WITH A WOMAN WITH
27 BLONDE HAIR, ON THE STREET? l
28 A. THERE WAS MANY PEOPLE RUNNING AND EVERYTHING
l
1
r 358
r 1 HAPPENED QUICKLY.
r 2 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER.
r
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
r 5
6
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 7
8
Q. DRAWING THE COURT'S AND COUNSEL'S ATTENTION
r 9
10
TO A TRANSCRIPT ON OCTOBER 6, 2010, ON PAGE 84, STARTING
ON LINE 16:
r 11 "QUESTION: DID YOU SEE ANYONE ELSE RUNNING?
r 12
13
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
NO, NOTHING.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ATTEMPTING TO
r 14
15
HIDE OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
"ANSWER: NO, BECAUSE I ONLY SAW THEM RUN."
r 16
17 A.
MR. PUENTE, DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
YES.
r 18 Q. YOU SAID THAT AT A PRIOR HEARING ON THIS CASE
r 19
20
ON OCTOBER 6TH, APPROXIMATELY, 2010?
A. THAT'S THE ONLY TIME I'VE BEEN TO COURT, THAT
r 21
22
TIME AND THIS ONE RIGHT NOW.
Q. AND THAT STATEMENT THAT YOU ONLY SAW PEOPLE
r 23
24
RUNNING, YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY HIDE, IS THAT YOUR
CURRENT RECOLLECTION TODAY?
r 25
26
A. I DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY HIDING.
JUMPING THE FENCE.
I JUST SAW THEM
r 27 Q. NOW, THIS POLICE REPORT THAT WAS SHOWN TO YOU
r 28 BY MR. TROCHA -- COUNSEL IS APPROACHING THE WITNESS.
r
, I
J
359
l
1 MR. TROCHA SHOWED YOU THIS POLICE REPORT,
2 CORRECT? l
3 A. YES. THIS IS THE SAME THING THAT HE SHOWED ME,
4 BUT THAT'S WHAT I TESTIFIED THE OTHER TIME I CAME TO l
5
6
COURT.
Q. MR. PUENTE, YOU DIDN'T WRITE THIS REPORT, DID
l
7
8
YOU?
A. NO.
l
9 Q. SOMEBODY ELSE WROTE IT, RIGHT? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND WHEN YOU GAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH POLICE ON l
12 THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, YOU GAVE THAT INTERVIEW
13 SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH YOUR BROTHER, MELITON, AND YOUR
l
14
15
NEPHEW, JULIO RAMIREZ, CORRECT?
A. YES. BUT THEY WERE THE ONES TALKING. I WASN'T
l
16 TALKING. l
17 Q. OKAY. DID THAT REPORT THAT I SHOWED YOU
18 ACCURATELY REFLECT WHAT YOU SAID? l
19 A. THE FIRST TIME THAT I CAME TO COURT, YES,
20 THAT'S WHAT I SAID. BUT THE DAY OF THE ACCIDENT, I l
21 DIDN'T SAY THAT.
22 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
l
23
24
MR. PUENTE, THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, YOU WERE
WATCHING A BOXING MATCH, CORRECT?
l
25 A. CORRECT. l
26 Q. USING WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS AS A POINT OF
27 REFERENCE, HOW LONG BEFORE THE SHOOTING DID YOU START l
28 WATCHING THE BOXING MATCH?
l
,
r 360
r 1 A. AGAIN, THE QUESTION?
r 2 Q. SURE. HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN WATCHING THE
r
3 BOXING MATCH BEFORE YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS?
4 A. WELL, WE LOVE BOXING, AND WE STARTED WATCHING
r 5
6
THE MATCHES SINCE IT STARTED, AROUND SIX, UNTIL THEY'RE
OVER.
r 7
8
Q. AND THE GUNSHOTS HAPPENED APPROXIMATELY
9:00 P.M. OR SOON THEREAFTER?
r 9
10
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME, BECAUSE WE
WERE REALLY EXCITED WITH THE MATCH, AND I -- WHAT I
r 11 REMEMBER IS THAT IT WAS A LITTLE BIT AFTER 8:00.
r 12
13
Q. MR. PUENTE, YOU DIDN'T NOTICE DURING THE BOXING
MATCH -- YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING OUTSIDE, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NOTHING.
DID YOU HEAR CARS PULL UP?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO. WE WERE EXCITED WITH THE MATCH.
DID YOU HEAR CAR DOORS CLOSE OR OPEN?
r 18 A. WE WERE NOT PAYING ATTENTION. WE WERE INTENT
r 19 ON THE MATCH.
20 Q. YOU DIDN'T HEAR VOICES COMING FROM THE PARK?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO, NOTHING.
AND THEN WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, IT WAS
r 23
24
YOUR BROTHER WHO WENT OUTSIDE FIRST, CORRECT?
A. YES. THE THREE OF US ALMOST WENT OUT TOGETHER,
r 25 AND THEN -- WELL, NO. IT WAS BOTH US. BOTH OF US.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DID YOUR BROTHER GO OUT FIRST?
YES.
r 28 Q. "YOUR BROTHER," I'M TALKING ABOUT MELITON
r
361
,
1
1
2
PUENTE.
A. YES.
, j
3 Q. AND DID YOU WAIT UNTIL THE GUNSHOTS HAD ALL

4 ALREADY BEEN FIRED BEFORE YOU WENT OUTSIDE? l
5
6
A.
ALREADY.
WHEN WE WENT OUT, THE PEOPLE WERE RUNNING
l
7 Q. WERE THE GUNSHOTS OVER WITH WHEN YOU WENT
l
8 OUTSIDE?
9 A. YES. YES. l
10 Q. SUFFICE IT TO SAY THAT YOU GOING OUTSIDE WAS A
11 REACTION TO THE GUNSHOTS? l
12 A. YES. YOU HEARD THEM CLOSE BY.
13 Q. AND WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, THERE WAS A
l
14
15
FEW MOMENTS OF CONFUSION AS TO WHAT WAS GOING ON; IS
THAT FAIR TO SAY?
l
16 A. EXACTLY. l
17
18
Q. AND THEN WHEN THE GUNSHOTS WERE OVER, YOU
IMMEDIATELY GOT UP AND WENT OUTSIDE, CORRECT?
, 1
19 A. EXACTLY.
20 Q. MR. PUENTE, YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE IS WHERE YOU
1 J
21 WERE AT. IT WASN'T YOUR HOUSE, RIGHT?

l
22
23
24 NOT?
A.
Q.
NO. EXACTLY.
YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE HAS TWO PORCHES, DOES IT
, 1
25 A. EXACTLY. l
26 Q. ONE PORCH IS CLOSE TO THE STREET, RIGHT?
27 A. EXACTLY. l
28 Q. AND THE OTHER PORCH IS SET BACK.
l
,
r 362
r 1 A. EXACTLY.
r 2 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING THE BOXING MATCH AND
r
3 YOU WENT OUT ONTO THE PORCH, WAS IT THE ONE CLOSE TO THE
4 STREET OR WAS IT THE ONE THAT WAS SET BACK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THE ONE CLOSEST TO THE STREET.
AND THE -- OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 7
8
NOW, THE MEN THAT YOU SAW RUNNING WERE RUNNING
THROUGH -- BRING YOUR ATTENTION TO PEOPLE'S 2 -- WERE
r 9 RUNNING THROUGH THE HOUSE ON 2 THAT'S JUST TO THE RIGHT

10 OF WHERE A RED X IS MARKED, CORRECT?
r 11 A. I SAW THEM JUMPING WHERE THE FIRST HOUSES ARE,
r 12
13
NOT THE SECOND ONE.
Q. IS IT THIS HOUSE THAT SITS ON THE CORNER OF THE
r 14
15
ALLEY ON FRANKLIN?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AND WHERE YOU SAW THEM JUMP WAS?
THE FENCES.
r 18 Q. NOW, THE FENCE -- WHEN YOU SAY THE FENCE, IS IT
r 19
20
THE FENCE THAT'S PARALLEL WITH FRANKLIN OR IS IT THE
FENCE THAT'S PARALLEL WITH THE ALLEY?
21 A. I SAW ONE JUMP THE FENCE AND THEN I SAW TWO
r 22 JUMP THE FENCE THAT IS IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE BY
r 23
24
FRANKLIN.
Q. THE ONE THAT JUMPED THE FENCE, WAS THE FENCE ON
r 25 THE ALLEY?
A. EXACTLY.
26
r 27 Q. AND THE TWO JUMPED THE FENCE THAT ARE RIGHT --
r 28 THAT IS PARALLEL TO THE STREET?
r
363
l
1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
DID THEY JUMP THE FENCE -- IF YOU HAD TO SPLIT
, i
3 THIS FENCE WITHIN THIS HOUSE'S YARD IN HALF, WOULD IT BE ~

j
4 THE RIGHT SIDE WHERE THEY JUMPED OR WOULD IT BE THE LEFT
5
6
SIDE?
A. I JUST SAW THEM THAT THEY JUMPED. IT HAPPENED
l
7 QUICKLY.
Q.
I DIDN'T NOTICE. I DON'T KNOW.
AND DID YOU SEE THEM AGAIN AFTER YOU SAW THEM
l
8
9 JUMPING? l
10 A. NO, NOT AT ALL. AND THE POLICE SHOWED UP
11 REALLY QUICKLY. l
12 Q. AND ARE YOU ABLE TO DESCRIBE THESE TWO MEN?
13 A. THE ONLY THING THAT I SAW WAS THEIR BACKS. ONE
1
14
15
WAS A LITTLE BIT CHUBBY AND THE OTHER ONES WERE NORMAL
WEIGHT.
l
16 Q. DID YOU SEE WHAT TYPE OF SHIRTS THEY HAD ON? l
17 A. JUST ONE THAT LOOKED LIKE A WHITE SHIRT.
18 THAT'S ALL. l
19 Q. JUST ONE WITH A WHITE SHIRT?
20 A. JUST ONE. THE REST OF THEM I DIDN'T SEE WELL l
21 BECAUSE IT WAS FAR AWAY AND IT WAS DARK. AND THE ONE
22 THAT I COULD SEE WITH THE WHITE SHIRT IS BECAUSE THE
l
23
24
WHITE WAS MORE REFLECTIVE.
SHIRT.
YOU COULD SEE MORE THE WHITE
l
25 Q. MR. PUENTE, WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN THE l
26 AGE APPROXIMATE AGE OF THE PEOPLE YOU SAW?
27 A. NO. NO. l
28 Q. AGAIN, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE
l
l
r 364
r 1 GENTLEMAN SITTING AT THE DEFENSE TABLE, WEARING A BLACK
r 2 SUIT, OTHER THAN PRIOR HEARINGS IN THIS CASE, HAVE YOU
r
3 EVER SEEN HIM BEFORE?
4 A. I'VE ALREADY SAID IT 10 TIMES. I'VE NEVER SEEN
r 5
6
HIM BEFORE.
r 7
8
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YOU'RE WELCOME.
THANK YOU.
r 9 IS THERE REDIRECT?
r 10
11 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS, YOUR
r 12
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 14
15
Q. IN TERMS OF THE MAN THAT WAS CHUBBY, WHAT DO
YOU MEAN BY "CHUBBY"?
r 16
17
A.
LOOK.
WELL, I'M BEING ASKED TO DESCRIBE HOW DID THEY
THAT'S WHAT I THINK.
r 18 Q. WELL, WHEN YOU DESCRIBED THE WOMEN THAT YOU SAW
r 19
20
EARLIER AS BEING HEAVY OR BIGGER, WAS HE THE SIZE OF
THESE WOMEN, BIGGER OR SMALLER?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
A LITTLE BIT THINNER.
NOW, WAS THIS -- THE CHUBBY MAN, WAS HE WEARING
r 23
24
A WHITE SHIRT, OR DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT SHIRT HE WAS
WEARING?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
HE WAS THE ONE WITH THE WHITE SHIRT.
NOW, THE OTHER TWO, YOU SAID YOU COULDN'T TELL
r 27 WHAT COLOR CLOTHING THEY WERE WEARING; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 28 A. NO. THERE WAS -- IT WAS COLORED CLOTHING.
r
, I
J
365
l
1 Q. WAS IT A DARKER COLOR?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. IF IT WAS A WHITE COLOR, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO ~
J
4 SEE THAT IT WAS WHITE?
5
6
A.
Q.
I WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SAY IT WAS WHITE.
AND THESE TWO OTHERS IN THE DARKER COLORS WERE
l
7 NORMAL SIZE OR A THINNER BUILD THAN THE CHUBBY MAN?
A. YES. 150, 160 POUNDS, FIVE-EIGHT, FIVE-NINE,
l
8
9 SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE. l
10 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MR. PUENTE. NOTHING
11 FURTHER. l
1
14
15 STEP DOWN.
THE COURT: MR. PUENTE, THANK YOU. YOU MAY
PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID HERE
l
16 IN COURT WITH ANY OTHER WITNESS EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS. l
17 OKAY?
19 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. GOOD DAY TO
20 YOU, SIR. l
21 LET'S TAKE THE MID-MORNING RECESS, LADIES AND ~
J
22 GENTLEMEN. PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
23 CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. WE'LL
l
24
25
RECONVENE AT 10:30.
THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
, J
l
27
28
THE COURT:
AND GENTLEMEN.
THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING, LADIES
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE , J
l
r 366
r 1 PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
r 2 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS.
r 3
4
MR. TROCHA:
A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER.
YOUR HONOR, THE PEOPLE ARE CALLING
WE'RE CALLING JOSUE GUTIERREZ.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
THANK YOU.
DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE
r 7
8
r 9 HELP YOU GOD?

10 THE WITNESS: I SWEAR.
r 11 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT
r 12
13
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, SIR. RIGHT UP HERE
r 14
15
NEXT TO ME, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
THE CLERK:
THANK YOU.
r 16
17
THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS JOSUE GUTIERREZ, AND
r 18 SPELL IT G-U-T-I-E-R-R-E-Z.

r 20 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY QUESTION.
r 21
22
JOSUE GUTIERREZ,
r 23
24
PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN,
TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
r 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 27 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. GUTIERREZ.
r
367
1
1
1 Q. ARE YOU A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET? ,
2
3
4
A.
Q.
A.
I'M NOT.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET IS?
I KNOW.
,
r
j
5 Q. WHAT IS IT?
1
,
}
6 A. IT'S A GANG.
7 Q. IT'S A STREET GANG, CORRECT?
J
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DO YOU HAVE A NICKNAME? 1
10 A. I DON'T.
11 Q. PEOPLE DON'T CALL YOU SCRAPPY? l
12 A. NO.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF FLORENCIO l
14
15
DOMINGUEZ?
A. NO.
YOU HAVE TO ANSWER OUT LOUD.
l
16 Q. THANK YOU.
l
17 DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF SPEEDY?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. DO YOU SEE THE PERSON TO MY FAR RIGHT, YOUR FAR
20 LEFT, IN THE BLACK SUIT AND THE WHITE SHIRT? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I SEEN HIM.
WHO IS THAT?
l
25 A. I SEEN HIM. l
26 Q. WHERE HAVE YOU SEEN HIM?
27 A. ON THE STREETS. l
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS NAME?
l
,
J
r 368
r 1 A. I DON'T.
r 2 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HIS NAME IS SPEEDY?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I DON'T.
DO YOU KNOW IF HE GOES BY CHUNKY?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I DON'T.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU SEEN HIM IN THE
r 7
8
STREETS?
A. LIKE ONCE.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHERE?
BY THE LIQUOR STORE.

r 11 Q. WHICH ONE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I THINK IT'S ON OLIVER STREET.
WHAT WAS THAT?
r 14
15
A.
LIQUOR.
OLIVER STREET. IT'S MARS (PHONETIC SPELLING)
r 16
17
Q.
A.
COULD YOU SPELL THE NAME OF THE STREET?
I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO SPELL THAT.
r 18 Q. WHAT'S THE NEAREST CROSS STREET?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
OCEAN VIEW.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK IS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
IS THIS ALSO OCEAN VIEW PARK?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DO YOU KNOW A PERSON OR DID YOU KNOW A PERSON
r 25 BY THE NAME OF MOISES LOPEZ?
r
26 A. I DID.
27 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW MOISES LOPEZ?
r 28 A. FROM SCHOOL.
r
369
,
l
1 Q. WHAT SCHOOL DID YOU GO TO?
2 A. POINT LOMA HIGH SCHOOL. l
3 Q. HOW LONG DID YOU KNOW MOISES?
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
ABOUT TWO YEARS.
YOU KNOW HE DIED, OBVIOUSLY.
YEAH.
,
l
J
8
Q. HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE YOUR RELATIONSHIP
WITH MOISES LOPEZ?
l
9 A. WE WERE CLOSE FRIENDS. l
10 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAD ANY NICKNAMES?
11 A. EVERYBODY CALLED HIM SMOKEY. l
12 Q. WHAT WERE SOME OF HIS OTHER FRIENDS THAT YOU
13 KNEW OF? l
14
15
A. IT WOULD ALWAYS BE RAUL, ISMAEL, ME, MY HOME
GIRL, CAROL. YEAH.
l
16 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MOISES LOPEZ?
l
17 A. HE GOT SHOT.
1
18
19
20
Q.
A.
Q.
WHERE DID HE GET SHOT?
I HEARD AT THE PARK.
OCEAN VIEW PARK?
, j
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR

22 HEARSAY.
1
23
24 KNOWLEDGE.
THE COURT:
SUSTAINED.
NO FOUNDATION TO SHOW PERSONAL
l
25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHICH DAY HE GOT SHOT ON?
27 A. LET ME TRY TO REMEMBER. IT WAS OCTOBER, I l
28 THINK, 14.
l
,
r 370
r 1 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN SEPTEMBER 13TH?
r 2 A. YEAH, THAT ONE.
r
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WERE DOING THAT DAY?
4 A. YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT DAY.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU LEARN THAT MOISES LOPEZ GOT KILLED?
CAROL CALLED ME AND TOLD ME.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
YOU WEREN'T THERE?
I WASN'T THERE.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
YOU WEREN'T IN THE PARK WHEN HE GOT SHOT?
NOPE.
r 11 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING THE DAY OF THAT SHOOTING?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WE WERE HAVING A CARNE ASADA AT THE PARK.
WHEN YOU SAY "WE," WHO IS WE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CAROL, RAUL, HE WAS THERE.
WHEN YOU SAY "HE," YOU HAVE TO TELL ME NAMES.
r 16
17
A. MOISES, AND THEN SOME OTHER FRIENDS, JESSICA
AND HER COUSINS.
r 18 Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S
r 19
20
BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1, TWO PHOTOGRAPHS.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT'S IN THE TOP PHOTOGRAPH?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THE PARK.
WOULD THIS BE THE WHOLE PARK OF MOUNTAIN VIEW
r 25
26
AND OCEAN VIEW?
r
A. THE DIVISION IS RIGHT THERE, YEAH.
27 Q. WHAT'S THE BOTTOM PICTURE?
r 28 A. I THINK THE TOP PARK.
r
371
1
l
1 Q. WOULD THAT BE OCEAN VIEW PARK?
2 A. YEAH, YOU COULD CALL IT THAT. 1
3 Q. WHAT DO YOU CALL IT?
4 A. THE PARK. l
5 Q. JUST THE PARK?
6 A. YEAH.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS THE CARNE ASADA IN THIS PARK?
IN THE TOP PICTURE, THE ONE WITH THE TENNIS
l
9 COURTS. l
10 Q. OKAY. WHERE IN THE PARK AND THE TENNIS COURTS
11 WAS IT? l
12 A. IN THE CORNER.
13 Q. WHICH CORNER? l
14
15
A.
Q.
TO THE LEFT. NO, THE OTHER PART. ON THE TOP.
HOW ABOUT YOU COME DOWN HERE AND SHOW US.
l
16 A. RIGHT HERE.
l
17 Q. YOU POINTED TO THE TOP LEFT CORNER TO THE LEFT
18 OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE, WHAT, A GAZEBO? l
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. OKAY. YOU SAID ONE OF THE PEOPLE AT THIS CARNE l
21 ASADA'S NAME WAS CAROL?
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
A.
YEAH.
DOES CAROL HAVE ANY BROTHERS?
YEAH, I THINK.
,
25 Q. WHAT ARE HER BROTHER'S NAMES? l
26 A. RONALD AND CHRIS.
27 Q. IS CHRIS SHORT FOR CHRISTIAN? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 372
r 1 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF CHRISTIAN IS A MEMBER OF
r 2 SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r
3 A. I DON'T KNOW.
4 Q. DID YOU EVER HEAR HIM GO BY THE NAME OF
r 5
6
VANDAL?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 7
8
Q.
CORRECT?
YOU SAID ONE OF YOUR OTHER FRIENDS WAS RAUL,
r 9 A. YEAH.
r
10 Q. IS THAT RAUL AGUILAR?
11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DOES RAUL HAVE ANY NICKNAMES?
NO.
r 14
15
Q.
KNUCKLES?
DID YOU EVER HEAR RAUL GO BY THE NAME OF
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NOPE.
DO YOU KNOW IF RAUL AGUILAR IS A MEMBER OF
r 18 SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
20 Q. YOU SAID ONE OF YOUR FRIEND'S NAME IS ISMAEL?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THAT ISMAEL ACEVES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
IT IS.
DO YOU KNOW IF ISMAEL ACEVES GOES BY ANY
r 25 NICKNAMES?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
DID YOU EVER HEAR HIM CALLED RACCOON OR LIL
r 28 RACCOON?
r
373
1
1 A. NO.
1
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ISMAEL ACEVES IS A MEMBER OF 1
3 SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
4 A. I DON'T KNOW. l
5 Q. WHAT WAS THE OTHER NAME OF THE MEMBER OF YOUR
l
6
7
FOUR'S GROUP?
A. JESSICA.
, j
8
9
Q.
A.
JESSICA.
I DON'T.
DO YOU KNOW JESSICA'S LAST NAME?
., J
10 Q. WHAT TIME WAS THIS CARNE ASADA IN THE PARK?

11 A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS EARLY. 1
12 Q. WAS THE SUN UP?
13 A. YEAH. l
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW MANY HOURS DO YOU THINK YOU WERE THERE?
ABOUT FIVE.
l
16 Q. ABOUT WHAT TIME DID THIS CARNE ASADA END?
l
17 A. ABOUT 7:00, 8:00.
18 Q. AT NIGHT? 1
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A CARNE ASADA, IS THIS l
21 SIMILAR TO LIKE A BARBECUE?
22 A. YEAH.
1
23
24
Q.
MAYBE?
COOKING UP MEAT, FOOD, GATHERING, DRINKING
l
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. NO BEER?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. IS THIS MORE OF A FAMILY GATHERING?
l
,
r 374
r 1 A. IT WAS JUST FRIENDS FROM POINT LOMA. WE WERE
r 2 JUST A REUNION, YOU KNOW.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
KIND OF BEFORE THE SCHOOL YEAR BEGINS?
NO, BECAUSE EVERYBODY GOT -- KIND OF GOT KICKED
r 5
6
OUT, SO, YOU KNOW, WE WERE JUST GATHERING THE GANG TO
COME TOGETHER.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE WAS AT THIS PARTY?
THAT WAS IT. LET ME SEE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I
r 9
10
CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q. WAS A FRIEND BY THE NAME OF ALEXIS LOPEZ THERE?
r 11 A. WAS HE THERE? HE WASN'T THERE. HE WAS AT A
r 12
13
QUINCEANERA LATER THAT DAY.
Q. DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF LOUIE
r 14
15
POTLONG?
A.
(PHONETIC SPELLING)
NO.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
SO TELL ME HOW THIS CARNE ASADA ENDS.
WELL, IT GOT DARK, AND THEN WE SEEN A
r 18 QUINCEANERA IN THE CORNER. IN THE RIGHT CORNER THERE
r 19
20
WAS -- I DON'T KNOW -- THERE'S THE HALL OVER THERE, AND
THEN WE SEEN THE QUINCEANERA AND WE'RE, LIKE, WE'RE
r 21
22
GOING TO GO. SO WE DECIDED TO PACK EVERYTHING, GET IN
THE CAR AND THEN DROP EVERYTHING OFF AND THEN GO TO THE
r 23
24
QUINCEANERA.
Q. FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH WHAT A
r 25
26
QUINCEANERA IS, WHAT IS IT?
A. A 15 PARTY. WHEN A GIRL TURNS 15.
r 27 Q. IT'S A BIG BIRTHDAY PARTY?
r 28 A. YEAH.
r
375
,
1
2
Q.
A.
DID YOU KNOW WHO WAS TURNING 15?
NO.
,
l
1
3 Q. WERE YOU GUYS GOING TO CRASH IT?

4 A. YEAH. l
Q. SO WHAT WAS THE PLAN?
5
6 A. EVERYBODY WAS GOING TO GO TO THE QUINCEANERA.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHO WAS EVERYBODY?
THE PEOPLE I MENTIONED.
l
l
9
10
11
Q.
A.
Q.
MOISES, RAUL, ISMAEL, CAROL?
JESSICA.
JESSICA. RONALD?
,
12 A. WE WENT TO PICK HIM UP.
13 Q. CHRISTIAN?
l
14 A. NO. ~
J
15 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
16 A. WE PACKED EVERYTHING AND WE DIDN'T FIT, SO WE
l
17 DECIDED TO -- PEOPLE WERE GOING TO STAY THERE. SO
18 MOISES SAID HE WAS GOING TO STAY, SO HE STAYED AND THEN l
19 WE LEFT. WE WENT TO PICK UP MY FRIEND, RONALD WELL,
20 CAROL'S -- WE PICKED HIM UP. WE CAME BACK AND HE WASN'T l
21
22
THERE NO MORE, SO WE THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE OVER
THERE AT THE QUINCEANERA ALREADY, HE COULDN'T WAIT. SO
l
23
24
WE WENT TO THE QUINCEANERA AND WE LOOKED FOR HIM, AND
THEN WE STARTED DANCING, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE, YEAH.
l
25 Q. WHO ELSE WAS LEFT AT THE PARK WITH MOISES? l
26 A. THAT WAS IT. RAUL WENT TO LOOK FOR US AT THE
27 HOUSE. l
28 Q. DID RAUL GO BACK WITH YOU BACK TO RONALD'S --
l
,
r 376
[
1 OR CAROL'S?
r 2 A. HE WENT LOOKING FOR US BECAUSE WE TOOK, LIKE, A

3 LITTLE BIT A LONG TIME. WE WERE LAGGING IT.
r 4 Q. NOW, THE REASON WHY HE COULDN'T FIT IN THE VAN
5 WAS BECAUSE ALL OF THE --
r 6 A. ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE, AND THEN THE
r 7
8
MEAT AND THE GRILL, EVERYTHING.
Q. ALL THESE PEOPLE WERE PUT IN THE VAN WITH THE
r 9
10
MEAT AND THE GRILL?
A. YEAH.
YES?
r 11 Q. CAROL'S HOUSE IS JUST OFF THE MAP UP HERE,
r 12
13
CORRECT?
A. YEAH.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
SO ABOUT TWO BLOCKS AWAY, CORRECT?
ABOUT LIKE FOUR OR FIVE.
[ 16 Q. IF YOU'RE DRIVING. BUT IF YOU'RE WALKING DOWN

17 THAT DIRT ALLEY, IT'S ABOUT TWO BLOCKS AWAY.
r 18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET FROM DOOR TO
r 20 DOOR?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
FROM WHERE?
FROM THE PARK TO CAROL'S HOUSE AND BACK TO THE
r 23
24
PARK?
A. WELL, WE WENT TO PICK UP RONALD. HE HAD TO GET
r 25
26
READY BECAUSE WE TOLD HIM THERE WAS A QUINCEANERA GOING
ON. SO HE GOT READY, SO WE TOOK A LONG TIME.
[ 27 Q. DID YOU GUYS HAVE TO GET DRESSED?
28 A. WE DIDN'T CARE. WE DIDN'T KNOW THE PEOPLE, SO
[
r
377
1
.1
1 WE WERE JUST GOING TO SHOW UP LIKE THAT. BUT RONALD, HE
2 WASN'T EVEN READY. SO WHEN WE PICKED HIM UP, WE TOLD l
3 HIM, AND HE WAS GETTING READY.
4 Q. WELL, I MEAN, A QUINCEANERA IS A PRETTY FORMAL 1
AFFAIR, ISN'T IT, MR. GUTIERREZ?
5
6 A. YEAH.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WOMEN GET BALL GOWNS, CORRECT?
YEAH.
l
9 Q. SOME MEN GET SUITS OR TUXEDOS. l
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. I'M ASSUMING YOU WEREN'T WEARING A TUXEDO TO l
12 THE CARNE ASADA, CORRECT?
13 A. I WASN'T.
1
14
15
Q. WERE YOU WEARING SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU
WEARING TODAY?
l
16 A. YEAH. l
17 Q. T-SHIRT, HOODIE, SHORTS, MAYBE PANTS?
18 A. SOME SHORTS. l
19 Q. YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO GET INTO A
20 QUINCEANERA DRESSED LIKE THAT? 1
21
22
A.
Q.
WELL, I DID. YOU DO.
WHAT WAS MOISES WEARING?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I CAN'T REMEMBER.
WAS HE WEARING PANTS?
l
25 A. YEAH. EVERYBODY WAS JUST LIKE A USUAL DAY. WE l
26 WEREN'T READY FOR THAT QUINCEANERA.
27 Q. WAS HE WEARING A BLACK BASEBALL HAT TOO? l
28 A. I CAN'T REMEMBER.
l
1
378
1 Q. WAS HE WEARING LIKE A DARK T - SHIRT?
2 A. I REALLY CAN ' T REMEMBER .
3 Q. HOW OLD WERE YOU AT TH I S T I ME?
4 A. I WAS 17, 16.
5 Q. THEN?
6 A. YEAH.
7 Q. SO IT WOULD BE SAFE TO SAY THAT YOU ' VE PROBABLY
8 SEEN A COUPLE OF QUINCEANERAS IN YOUR LIFETIME BEFORE
9 THIS ONE.
10 A. YEAH .
11 Q. SO YOU KNOW HOW PEOPLE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO
12 DRESS TO GET INTO ONE .
13 A. YEAH.
14 Q. MOISES WAS GOING TO WAIT IN T HE PARK AND NOT
15 CHANGE HIS CLOTHES BEFORE GOING TO THE QUINCEANERA?
16 A. NOBODY CHANGED , SO WE WERE ALL GO I NG TO GO JUST
17 LIKE THAT .
18 Q. SO YOU COME BACK .
19 DID YOU LOOK FOR MOISES?
20 A. WE DID.
21 Q. WHERE DID YOU LOOK FOR HIM?
22 A. THE SAME PLACE AS THE CARN E ASADA. AND WE WENT
23 AROUND THE PARK -- BECAUSE WE CAN ' T GO T HROUGH THERE
24 BECAUSE IT ' S A ONE - WAY STREET , SO WE WENT AROUND THAT
25 PARK . AND THEN WE DIDN ' T SEE HIM , SO WHEN WE HIT THE
26 CORNER, WE JUST WENT INSIDE THE PARKING LOT AND WE WERE
27 LIKE , " WE ' LL LOOK FOR HIM INSIDE. "
L~ Q. YOU NEVER T URNED AROUND AND LOOKED ACROSS THE

,
379
,
1
2
3
STREET?
A.
Q.
IT WAS DARK.
YOU SAID YOU LOOKED AROUND ONE PARK, BUT YOU
,
4 COULDN'T LOOK AROUND THE OTHER ONE? 1
5 A. BECAUSE WE WEREN'T AT THE OTHER PARK.
6 Q. MOISES LOPEZ USED TO LIVE JUST A FEW BLOCKS
l
7
8
THIS WAY, CORRECT?
A. NO.
l
9 Q. NO? l
10 A. THE OTHER WAY.
11 Q. THE OTHER WAY? l
12 A. NO. MORE TO THE RIGHT. THE SAME WAY YOU SAID,
13
14
15
BUT TO THE RIGHT.
Q. SO IN THIS AREA.
IT'S NOT OFF 40TH.
IT'S OFF THE MAP OBVIOUSLY.
DOWN OFF OF 38TH?
,
l
j
16 A. NO, NOT TO THE RIGHT.

l
17 Q. THIS WAY?
l
18
19
20
SCHOOL.
A.
Q.
YEAH. HE LIVED RIGHT OVER THERE, YEAH, BY THE
THIS SCHOOL RIGHT HERE?

,
21 A. YEAH, DOWN THERE.
22 Q. OFF OF T?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DID YOU EVER GO OVER TO T STREET TO LOOK FOR
l
25 HIM? l
26 A. ONLY ONCE.
27 Q. HE LIVED AT T AND 38TH, RIGHT? l
28 A. 39TH.
l
1
r 380
r 1 Q. SO EVEN CLOSER. YOU DIDN'T STOP BY HIS HOUSE
r 2 TO SEE IF HE WANTED TO GET PICKED UP?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
HIS MOM NEVER LIKED US.
SO WHAT HAPPENED AT THE QUINCEANERA?
r 5
6
A. WE WERE RIGHT THERE, DANCING.
DIDN'T FIND HIM, SO WE WENT OUTSIDE.
AND THEN WE
THAT'S WHEN WE
r 7
8
SEEN ALEXIS. AND NEXT THING YOU KNOW, WE HEAR SOME
GUNSHOTS, AND, YEAH, WE RAN UP THERE TO THE REC CENTER.
[ 9 Q. WHERE IS THE REC CENTER?
10 A. TOP RIGHT, RIGHT NEXT TO THE HALL.
r 11 Q. IT'S JUST OFF THE MAP, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THE HALL IS RIGHT HERE --
r 14
15
A.
Q.
LIKE MORE TO THE RIGHT. MORE TO THE RIGHT.
THIS AREA JUST OFF THE MAP WHERE THE TAG WOULD
[ 16 BE?
17 A. YEAH.
r 18 Q. THE REC CENTER IS --
r 19
20
A.
Q.
RIGHT THERE, YEAH.
THE BLUE BUILDING?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT DID YOU DO THERE?
r 23
24
A. WE JUST STAND THERE, BECAUSE CARLOS, THE GUY
WHO'S THE MANAGER AT THE REC CENTER, HE CAME OUT AND HE
r 25 SAID, LIKE, "DID YOU GUYS HEAR THAT? I GOT A CALL THAT
r
26 SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO BREAK IN." AND THEN WE'RE LIKE,
27 "YEAH, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS." AND WITHIN LIKE TWO
r 28 MINUTES THERE WAS COPS ALL OVER THE PARK.
r
,
381
,
1
3
AND THEN THAT GUY CARLOS, THE MANAGER FROM
THERE, WE TOLD HIM THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
HE'S LIKE, "ALL RIGHT. I'LL GO CHECK OR I'LL GO MAKE A
,
4 CALL." AND THEN THEY JUST LIKE "SOMEBODY GOT SHOT." l
5 Q. AT THE TIME IT'S YOU, ALEXIS, RAUL?
6 A. NO.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
RAUL IS NOT THERE EITHER?
WE DIDN'T FIND HIM.
l
9 Q. MOISES IS NOT THERE. 1
10 A. HUH-UH.
11 Q. CAROL? l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. RONALD? l
14 A. YEAH.
1
15
16
17
Q.
A.
Q.
ISMAEL?
NO. HE WAS IN TJ.
WHO ELSE?
,
18
19
20
A.
Q.
A.
JESSICA AND HER COUSINS.
AND HER COUSIN?
AND THEN MORE PEOPLE THAT HEARD THE GUNSHOTS
,
l
. 1
21 FROM THE QUINCEANERA RUN UP THERE TOO.

22 Q. ALL TO THIS REC CENTER?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU WERE NEVER AT OCEAN VIEW PARK DURING THE
l
l
,
25 TIME OF THE SHOOTING?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO GLENNYS BERUMEN IS? J
28 A. NO.
l
1
r 382
r 1 Q. YOU DIDN'T KNOW MOISES LOPEZ'S GIRLFRIEND?
r 2 A. HE DIDN'T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND.
r 3 Q. HE DIDN'T?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HUMBERTO BERUMEN?
NO.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T?
I DON'T.
r 9 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A PERSON NAMED RIDER?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
NO.
HOW ABOUT ANGELICA CAMPOS?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
ANGELICA?
YEAH.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DON'T KNOW HER EITHER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU EVER TALK TO GLENNYS BERUMEN?
r 18 A. I DON'T KNOW HER. NEVER MET HER.
r 19
20
Q. DID YOU EVER TELL HER THAT YOU ACTUALLY WERE IN
THE PARK AND WITNESSED MOISES GET SHOT?
r 21
22
A. I NEVER MET HER.
TALKING ABOUT.
I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE
r 23
24
Q.
ABOUT THIS?
WHAT ABOUT RAUL AGUILAR, DID YOU TALK TO HIM
r 25 A. WELL, WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
r 26
27
Q.
AS WELL?
YOU DIDN'T TELL RAUL AGUILAR THAT YOU SAW THIS
r 28 A. NO.
r
383
,
1
1 Q. YOU DIDN'T TALK TO ISMAEL ACEVES ABOUT THIS?
2 A. WE JUST TALKED ABOUT THAT I HEARD HE WAS DEAD. 1
3 AND THE NEXT MORNING, WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM TJ, ME AND
4 HIM WALKED TO HIS HOUSE, BECAUSE I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT l
5 WHEN I GOT THE CALL FROM CAROL SAYING THAT HE WAS DEAD.
6 Q. YOU DIDN'T TELL ISMAEL ACEVES YOU SAW MOISES
l
7
8
GET SHOT IN THE PARK?
A. NO.
l
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T TELL THESE PEOPLE THAT YOU SAW l
10 SPEEDY DO THE SHOOTING?
11 A. NO. 1
12 Q. NEVER?
13 A. I DIDN'T. l
14
15
Q. AND AT THE SAME TIME, NONE OF THESE PEOPLE THAT
WE'VE MENTIONED ARE MEMBERS OF 38TH STREET, CORRECT?
1
16 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
l
17 Q. BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT EITHER.
18 A. I'M NOT. l
19 Q. NEVER CLAIMED 38TH STREET?
20 A. KIND OF DID FOR A TIME. 1
21 Q. WHEN WAS THIS?
22 A. RECENTLY.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
HOW RECENTLY?
ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
l
25 Q. SO NOW YOU DO CLAIM 38TH STREET. l
26 A. NO. I MOVED ON. I GOT LOCKED UP AND I MOVED
27 TO CHICAGO. I WAS OVER THERE TRYING TO GRADUATE HIGH l
28 SCHOOL, AND I JUST CAME BACK LIKE FIVE MONTHS AGO.
1
,
r 384
[
1 Q. SO WHICH IS IT, MR. GUTIERREZ? ARE YOU A
r 2 MEMBER OF 38TH STREET OR ARE YOU NOT?

A. NOPE.
r
3
4 Q. AND YOU NEVER WERE?
5 A. NOPE.
[ 6 Q. YOU JUST PRETENDED TO BE ONE FOR ABOUT A YEAR.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AFTER YOUR FRIEND GOT KILLED.
[ 9 A. YEAH.
10 Q. AND YOUR FRIENDS -- RAUL, MOISES, ISMAEL --
r 11 THEY'RE NOT MEMBERS OF 38TH STREET EITHER.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
AND YOU WOULD KNOW BECAUSE THEY'RE YOUR BEST
[ 14 FRIENDS.
15 A. WELL, YOU CAN SAY THAT. BUT I'VE BEEN KNOWING
r 16
17
RAUL FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
Q. DID THEY EVER CLAIM 38TH STREET FOR A YEAR LIKE
r 18 YOU DID?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
IF YOU WERE A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET, WOULD YOU
r 21
22
TELL US?
A. YEAH.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
[ 25 CROSS?
r 27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
385
l
1
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. GUTIERREZ.
4 A. GOOD MORNING. l
Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, YOU STATED YOU'RE NOT A MEMBER
5
6 OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET, CORRECT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AT A TIME, YOU WANTED TO BE?
l
9 A. THERE WAS A TIME WHEN I DID. l
10 Q. IN ORDER TO BECOME A MEMBER, WHAT DO YOU HAVE
11 TO DO? l
12 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. LACK OF FOUNDATION.
13
14
15
HE'S NOT A MEMBER.
THE COURT:
SOUNDS LIKE IT. SUSTAINED. ,
1
1
16 Q. DO YOU KNOW OTHER MEMBERS? l

17 A. NO.
l
18
19
20
Q.
A.
Q.
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE TERM "JUMPING IN"?
I HAVE.
WHAT IS JUMPING IN?
,
21 A. WHEN SOMEBODY WANTS TO GET IN A GANG. ~
J
22 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS THAT WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO
23
24
TO GET INTO SHELLTOWN?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. LACK OF FOUNDATION.
l
25 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. l
26 THE COURT: ANSWER WILL STAND.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. l
28 Ill
l
1
r 386
r_
r 2 Q. ALL RIGHT. SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, THAT'S WHAT
r
3 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW. YOU REMEMBER THAT DATE,
4 CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I REMEMBER.
YOU REMEMBER BECAUSE SOMETHING VERY SERIOUS
r 7
8
HAPPENED THAT DAY.
A. YEAH.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
A FRIEND OF YOURS GOT SHOT.
YES, SIR.
r 11 Q. A GOOD FRIEND.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THAT DAY YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH HIM --
r 14
15
MOISES.
A. EARLIER THAT DAY.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AT A CARNE ASADA.
YES.
[ 18 Q. AND YOU SPENT A FEW HOURS AT THE CARNE ASADA,
r 19
20
RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
AND PRESENT THERE WAS RAUL AGUILAR.
YEAH.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
MOISES.
YEAH.
[ 25 Q. CAROL MARTINEZ, RIGHT?
26 A. YEAH.
r 27 Q. RONALD MARTINEZ.
r 28 A. HE WASN'T THERE.
r
387
1 Q. RONALD WASN ' T THERE?

2 A. NO.
3 Q. ALEXIS LOPEZ , WAS HE THERE?
4 A. NO . I THINK WE SEEN HIM AT THE QUINCEANERA,
5 BUT I DON'T REMEMBER.
6 Q. YOU KNOW WHO ALEXIS LOPEZ IS , RIGHT?
7 A. YEAH .
8 Q. HE ' S NOT RELATED TO MOISES , CORRECT?
9 A. NO .
10 Q. AND THEN SOME GIRL NAMED JESSICA WAS THERE?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. AND HOW DO YOU KNOW HER?
13 A. FROM SCHOOL.
14 Q. DO YOU KNOW HER WELL?
15 A. A LITTLE BIT .
16 Q. AND SOME OF HER COUSINS WERE THERE?
17 A. YEAH .
18 Q. DID YOU KNOW THEM?
19 A. NO . FIRST TIME I MET THEM THERE.
20 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THEM AGAIN?
21 A. NO .
22 Q. AND APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE THE
23 CARNE ASADA?
24 A. I CAN ' T REMEMBER, BUT I KNOW IT WAS GETTING
25 DARK, SO IT WAS ABOUT 7:00 OR 8 : 00 .
26 Q. AND YOU WENT TO PICK UP RAUL -- I MEAN --
27 A. RONALD .
28 Q. -- RONALD. RONALD MARTINEZ AND CAROL MARTINEZ
r 388
r 1 ARE SIBLINGS, CORRECT?
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q.
CORRECT?
RONALD LIVED AT THE SAME HOUSE AS CAROL,
5 A. YEAH.
[ 6 Q. AND THE BARBECUE EQUIPMENT THAT YOU WERE USING
r 7
8
WAS CAROL'S, RIGHT?
A. WELL, IT WAS MINE, BUT I GAVE IT TO CAROL.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
IT WAS YOUR EQUIPMENT?
YEAH. IT USED TO BE MINE, BUT WE WOULD ALWAYS
r 11 HAVE CARNE ASADAS, SO I'M LIKE, "HERE, LEAVE IT AT YOUR
12 HOUSE."
[ 13 Q. DID SHE LIVE CLOSER TO THE PARK THAN YOU?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND DID YOU USUALLY HANG OUT WITH HER WHEN YOU
r 16
17
HAD A CARNE ASADA?
A. YEAH. IT WAS USUALLY AT HER HOUSE.
r 18 Q. OKAY. SO WHEN YOU LEFT TO DROP OFF THE
r
19 BARBECUE EQUIPMENT, YOU WENT TO CAROL'S HOUSE.
20 A. YEAH.
r 21
22
Q. BUT ACTUALLY RONALD WAS THERE, BECAUSE THEY
LIVED TOGETHER.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
SO WHEN YOU GOT THERE, RONALD SAID, "HEY, I
r 25 WANT TO HANG OUT WITH YOU GUYS."

A. NO. WE TOLD HIM THAT THERE WAS A QUINCEANERA
r
26
27 WE WERE GOING TO, AND HE'S LIKE, "ALL RIGHT. I'LL GO."
r 28 Q. OKAY. AND WHO DID YOU LEAVE BEHIND AT THE
r
389
1
1
1 PARK?
l
2
3
4
A.
Q.
A.
RAUL AND MOISES.
WHY DID YOU LEAVE THEM BEHIND?
BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T FIT IN THE CAR.
,
,.,
5 Q. WITH THE BARBECUE EQUIPMENT.
)
6 A. UH-HUH.
7
8
Q.
A.
WHO WAS DRIVING?
CAROL.
l
9 Q. AND WHEN YOU GOT BACK, YOU WERE PLANNING ON l
10 MEETING UP WITH BOTH RAUL AND MOISES AGAIN, WEREN'T YOU?
11 A. YEAH. WE TOLD THEM WE WERE ONLY GOING TO TAKE l
12 ABOUT 15 MINUTES, BUT THEN RONALD WASN'T READY AND WE
13 WERE WAITING FOR HIM TO GET READY, AND HE KIND OF TAKES,
l
14
15
LIKE A GIRL, YOU KNOW, LIKE TWO HOURS TO GET READY.
Q. RONALD'S KIND OF LIKE A GIRL?
l
16 A. YEAH. YOU KNOW, LIKE, HE'S NOT A GIRL, BUT, l
17 YOU KNOW, HE'S ACTING LIKE A GIRL TO GET READY.
18
19
Q. IN YOUR MIND, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A
GIRL AND A GUY AS FAR AS TIME IT TAKES TO GET READY? ,
l
20
21
A. WELL, A GUY SHOULD GET READY PRETTY QUICK, YOU
KNOW, AND GIRLS TAKE HOURS TO GET READY. , 1
22
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
HOW LONG DID RONALD TAKE?
ABOUT 40 MINUTES.
OKAY. AND THEN YOU WENT BACK TO THE PARK,
, J
25 CORRECT? l
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. AND YOU WALKED THE PERIMETER OF THE SOUTH PARK. l
28 A. YEP.
l
, ...
r 390
r 1 Q. POINTING TO PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 1, THE SOUTH
r 2
3
PART OF THE PARK IS BORDERED BY, ON THE TOP PART OF THE
EXHIBIT, BOUNDARY STREET, WHICH IS A ONE-WAY GOING LEFT,

r- 4 CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND IT'S ALSO BORDERED BY OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD,
r 7
8
WHICH IS ON THE RIGHT, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 9 Q. AND THEN IT'S BORDERED BY SOUTH 40TH STREET AT
r 10
11
THE BOTTOM, OR WHAT WOULD BE THE WEST SIDE OF THE PARK,
CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THEN ON WHAT WOULD BE THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE
r 14
15
PARK, OR THE RIGHT PART OF THE EXHIBIT, ON T STREET,
CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND DID YOU WALK THE ENTIRE PERIMETER OF THE

[ 18 SOUTH PORTION OF THE PARK?
r 19
20
A. WE DIDN'T WALK IT.
LOOKING FOR THEM.

WE DROVE PRETTY SLOW,
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. AND, AGAIN, LOOKING AT PROSECUTION 1,
YOU SEE THIS OTHER PARK THAT'S TO THE LEFT, OR NORTH, OF
r 23
24
THE SOUTH PARK, RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
THIS PARK HERE IS A HILL,
IT IS.
IS IT NOT?
r 27 Q. THE CREST OF THE HILL IS PROBABLY A FEW -- 10
r 28 OR 20 FEET NORTH OF THE BENCHES THAT I'M POINTING TO
r
391
1
1
1 RIGHT HERE ON THE EXHIBIT, CORRECT?
2 A. CORRECT. l
3 Q. SO FROM OCEAN VIEW YOU'D BE LOOKING UP A HILL,
4 CORRECT? l
A. CORRECT.
5
6 Q. AND YOU CAN'T SEE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HILL

l
7
8
FROM OCEAN VIEW, CORRECT?
A. YOU CAN I T .
l
9 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING FOR MOISES, IT WAS l
10 DARK OUT?
11 A. IT WAS PRETTY DARK. l
12 Q. AND SO THEN IT HAD BEEN LONGER THAN YOU HAD
13 TOLD MOISES THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE?
l
14
15
A. YEAH. SO WE THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE WAITING
ALREADY AT THE QUINCEANERA, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE PLAN,
l
16 YOU KNOW, GOING TO THE QUINCEANERA, AND WE TOOK A LITTLE
l
17 BIT YOU KNOW, WE TOOK LONGER THAN WE TOLD HIM.
1
18
19
20
Q. AND SO WHEN YOU COULDN'T FIND HIM, YOU JUST
DECIDED TO GO TO THE QUINCEANERA?
A. YEAH. WE'RE, LIKE, "THEY MIGHT BE THERE
, 1
21 ALREADY," YOU KNOW, "TRYING TO GET AT GIRLS OR

22 SOMETHING."
1
23
24
Q.
A.
YOU WERE GOING TO PICK UP SOME WOMEN?
YEAH.
1
25 Q. OR AT LEAST TRY TO. l
26 A. AT LEAST TRY, YEAH.
27 Q. ALL RIGHT. SO YOU'VE BEEN TO A QUINCEANERA l
28 BEFORE.
1
l .J
[
392
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
THESE ARE COMMON THINGS.
YEAH.
[ 4 Q. YOU'RE HISPANIC OR MEXICAN?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
QUINCEANERAS ARE PART OF YOUR CULTURE, RIGHT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DO YOU HAVE COUSINS THAT ARE WOMEN?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YEAH.
HAVE YOU BEEN TO THEIR QUINCEANERAS?
r 11 A. YEAH, I HAVE.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
OKAY.
YEAH.
DO YOU HAVE ANY SISTERS?
r 14
15
Q.
A.
DID THEY HAVE QUINCEANERAS?
WELL, SHE'S BARELY, WHAT, 13.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
OKAY. SO SHE'S GOING TO AT SOME POINT.
I GUESS, YEAH.
[ 18 Q. OKAY. AT A QUINCEANERA, THE PEOPLE HAVE TO
r 19
20
DRESS UP.
A.
IT'S NOT EVERYBODY, CORRECT?
IT'S NOT. JUST, YOU KNOW, THE MAIN PEOPLE LIKE
r 21
22
CHAMBELANES, OR THE DAD AND THE MOM.
Q. I'M SORRY, YOU SAID A WORD. WAS IT TOMBELANES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO. CHAMBELANES.
CHAMBELANES? WHAT IS CHAMBELANES?
[ 25 A. YOU KNOW, THEY DO SOME KIND OF DANCE, YOU KNOW,
26 WHEN THE GIRL GOES IN. IT'S THE PEOPLE THAT GO WITH
r 27 HER.
r 28 Q. OKAY. SO AT A QUINCEANERA THERE'S A DANCE
r
393
1
l
1 CALLED A CHAMBELANES?
2 A. NO. THE CHAMBELANES ARE THE GUYS. l
3 Q. CHAMBELANES ARE THE MEN?
4 A. YEAH, THAT GO IN AND DANCE WITH HER. 1
5 Q. OKAY. AND SO THE CHAMBELANES AND THE
6 QUINCEANERA -- WHO'S THE GIRL, RIGHT?
1
7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
-- THEY DO A DANCE.
1
9 A. YEAH. l
10 Q. AND THOSE PEOPLE HAVE TO DRESS FORMAL.
11 A. YEAH, THEY DO. l
12 Q. EVERYBODY ELSE AT THE QUINCEANERA CAN BE
13 CASUAL, CORRECT? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND AT THIS PARTICULAR QUINCEANERA ON THIS
l
16 PARTICULAR NIGHT, THERE WERE -- OTHER THAN YOU AND THE
l
17 FRIENDS THAT YOU SHOWED UP WITH, THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE
18 CASUALLY DRESSED, CORRECT? l
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. SO AT SOME POINT WHEN YOU'RE AT THE l
21 QUINCEANERA, YOU MEET UP WITH ALEXIS, CORRECT?
22 A. YEAH, HE WAS THERE.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
OKAY.
YEAH.
HE WAS ALREADY THERE?
l
25 Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM, l
26 WITHOUT TELLING ME WHAT WAS SAID?
27 A. DID I? YEAH. l
28 Q. WERE YOU HANGING OUT WITH HIM?
l
l
[
394
r 1 A. WE WERE.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
SO IT WAS -- RAUL WAS NOT THERE.
HUH-UH.
[ 4 Q. ISMAEL ACEVES WAS NOT THERE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
HE WASN'T.
OKAY. DID I SAY MOISES? MOISES WAS NOT THERE,
r 7
8
CORRECT?
A. HE WASN'T THERE.
r 9 Q. BUT CAROL WAS -- CAROL MARTINEZ.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YEAH.
RONALD WAS, BECAUSE YOU PICKED HIM UP.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
ALEXIS WAS.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND IT'S WHEN YOU'RE AT THE QUINCEANERA THAT
r 16
17
YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS.
A. YEAH.
r 18 Q. AND WHO WAS WITH YOU WHEN YOU HEARD THE
r 19
20
GUNSHOTS?
A. THOSE PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
ALEXIS, CAROL AND RONALD?
JESSICA AND ME.
[ 23 Q. AND JESSICA?
24 A. YEAH.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
WERE JESSICA'S COUSINS THERE TOO?
THEY WERE. BUT THEN THEY WENT INSIDE THE
r 27 QUINCEANERA AND THEY KEPT ON DANCING WHILE WE RAN UP
r 28 THERE, AND THEN THAT'S WHEN WE SEEN THE GUY NAMED
r
395
l
l
1 CARLOS.
2 Q. OKAY. WE'RE GOING TO GET THERE, BUT HOLD ON. l
3 WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, WERE YOU INSIDE OR
4 OUTSIDE? l
5 A. OUTSIDE IN THE PARKING LOT.
6 Q. SO YOU WERE JUST IN THE PARKING LOT OF THE
l
7
8
IS IT -- IT'S NOT THE REC CENTER.
CENTER, RIGHT?
IT'S A COMMUNITY
l
9 A. YEAH. l
10 Q. LET'S CLARIFY THIS TO MAKE IT CLEAR.
11 THERE IS A REC CENTER NEARBY, RIGHT. l
12 A. IT'S JUST RIGHT NEXT DOOR.
13 Q. OKAY. AND THERE'S ALSO A COMMUNITY CENTER. l
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
TWO DIFFERENT BUILDINGS, TWO DIFFERENT
l
16 OPERATIONS, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, RIGHT?
l
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. DO YOU HAVE A PEN HANDY, MR. GUTIERREZ?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. LET ME SEE IF I CAN FIND ONE. l
21 YOUR HONOR, DO WE HAVE PENS TO MARK EXHIBITS?
22 THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION IF THE EXHIBIT IS
l
23
24
MARKED?
MR. TROCHA: WHAT ARE WE GOING TO BE MARKING?
l
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST THE REC CENTER AND l
26 THE --
28 THE WITNESS: WELL, ACTUALLY YOU CAN'T SEE IT
l
1
r 396
r 1 THERE IN THAT PICTURE.
r
3 Q. YOU CAN'T SEE THE REC CENTER?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT THE COMMUNITY CENTER?
YOU CAN'T EITHER.
r 7
8
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T YOU STEP DOWN AND POINT
TO WHERE THEY WOULD BE IF THEY'RE ON THE MAP.
r 9
10
MR. GUTIERREZ, YOU SEE PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 1.
WHERE WOULD THE COMMUNITY CENTER BE WHERE THE
r 11 QUINCEANERA WAS?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
DOWN OVER HERE.
SO IT WOULD BE OFF THE MAP ON EXHIBIT 1, OFF
[ 14 THE RIGHT CORNER OF THE MAP.

15 A. YEAH.
r 16
17
Q. AND THE COMMUNITY CENTER -- EXCUSE ME -- NOW
THE REC CENTER?
r 18 A. IS THIS WHOLE THING.
r 19
20
Q. SO ON PROSECUTION 1, STARTING FROM THE RIGHT
CORNER, YOU GO IN ABOUT A FOOT AND WE CAN SEE A
21 BUILDING. IT'S THE FIRST BUILDING ON THE RIGHT CORNER
[
22 OF THE EXHIBIT.
[ 23 THAT BUILDING, IS THAT A PART OF THE --

24 A. REC CENTER.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
THE REC CENTER?
YEAH.
r 27 Q. THANK YOU. YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT.
r 28 SO WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, COULD YOU --
r
397
l
1
1 DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THEY WERE CLOSE OR NOT CLOSE
2 OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? l
3 A. WELL, THEY WERE PRETTY CLOSE, BECAUSE YOU CAN
4 HEAR THEM. I HEARD THEM. 1
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND SO YOU WENT OVER TO -- AT THAT
5
j
6 POINT YOU LEFT THE COMMUNITY CENTER AND WENT TO THE REC
7
8
CENTER?
A. TO THE REC CENTER.
l
9 Q. OKAY. AND WHO WENT WITH YOU? l
10 A. IT WAS RONALD, ALEXIS, SOME OTHER PEOPLE THAT
11 WERE THERE THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW AT THE QUINCEANERA. l
12 Q. HOW ABOUT CAROL?
13 A. OH, NO. SHE WAS INSIDE. SHE WENT INSIDE.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
SHE STAYED AT THE QUINCEANERA?
YEAH.
l
16 Q. SO IT WAS JUST YOU, RONALD AND ALEXIS WHO WENT
l
17 TO THE REC CENTER?
18 A. YEAH. l
19 Q. AND DID ANYONE ELSE GO WHO YOU DIDN'T KNOW?
20 A. YEAH. PEOPLE THAT WERE JUST RIGHT THERE AT THE l
21 QUINCEANERA.
22 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE?
1
23
24
A.
Q.
ABOUT LIKE THREE MORE.
ANYONE ELSE BESIDES THAT?
l
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. OKAY. SO IT WAS ABOUT SIX PEOPLE THERE.
27 A. YEAH. l
28 Q. AND WHEN YOU GOT THERE, YOU TALKED TO SOMEBODY
l
1
r 398
r 1 NAMED CARLOS.
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER HIS LAST NAME?
NO. BUT HE'S A MANAGER FROM THE REC CENTER.
5 Q. DID YOU KNOW HIM PRIOR TO THAT?
L 6 A. YEAH.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
OKAY. WOULD HIS NAME BE CARLOS RIOS?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?
NO.
r 11 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW HIM WELL?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
BUT YOU'VE SEEN HIM AROUND.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
OKAY. YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH CARLOS.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THIS HAPPENED, WHAT, TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO?
r 18 A. YEAH, I BELIEVE. YEAH.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
HOW OLD ARE YOU, MR. GUTIERREZ?
19.
r 21
22
Q.
OR 17?
SO TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO YOU WERE EITHER 16
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU'VE CHANGED QUITE A BIT PHYSICALLY SINCE
r 25
26
THEN, HAVEN'T YOU?
A. I GUESS I HAVE.
r 27 Q. YOU WERE SHORTER?
r 28 A. I'M STILL SHORT.
r
399
l
l
1 Q. BUT YOU WERE SHORTER THEN.
2 A. YEAH. l
3
4
Q.
A.
AND YOU WERE A LOT SKINNIER.
YEAH, I WAS.
,
J
5 Q. AND I SEE YOU HAVE A MUSTACHE AND A GOATEE; IS
6 THAT RIGHT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU DIDN'T HAVE THOSE THEN, DID YOU?
l
9 A. NO. l
10 Q. PROBABLY COULDN'T GROW THEM THEN, COULD YOU?
l
11
12
13
COULD YOU?
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU CERTAINLY DIDN'T HAVE THEM THEN.
,
J
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
OKAY. SUFFICE IT TO SAY YOU LOOKED A LOT
l
16 YOUNGER TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO.
l
17 A. I DID.
18 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THAT. l
19 YOU SAID YOU -- MR. TROCHA ASKED YOU ABOUT A
20 PERSON NAMED GLENNYS BERUMEN. DO YOU KNOW HER? l
21 A. I DON'T.
l
22
23
Q. OKAY. YOU WERE INTERVIEWED WITH REGARD TO THIS
CASE BY THE POLICE DETECTIVES SOON AFTER THE SHOOTING,
, J
24 RIGHT?
25 A. YEAH. l
26 Q. WAS IT THAT NIGHT OR WAS IT THE NEXT DAY?
27 A. IT WAS LIKE A WEEK AFTER THAT. l
28 Q. A WEEK AFTER?
l
l
r 400
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q. DURING THAT MEETING YOU TOLD THEM, "SO RIGHT
r 3
4
THERE IN THE QUINCEANERA, AND THEN WE HEARD LIKE THREE,
FIVE GUNSHOTS, AND THEN WE RAN FROM THERE TO LIKE -- TO
r 5
6
THE REC CENTER RIGHT HERE WHERE THE POLICE CAR -- THE
POLICE CAR WENT. THEY LEFT TO WHERE THEY HEARD IT."
r 7
8 LIKE,
"AND THEN CARLOS CAME OUT TO THE CAR, AND HE'S,
'WHAT WAS THAT? WAS THAT WHAT I THINK IT WAS?'
r 9 WE'RE LIKE, 'WE DON'T KNOW.' HE'S LIKE, 'I HEARD
r 10
11
GUNSHOTS.'
HEARD. '"
WE'RE LIKE, 'OH, YEAH. THAT'S WHAT WE
r 12
13 A.
DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT TO THE DETECTIVES?
YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT.
r 14
15
Q.
AFTER?
THANK YOU. AND, AGAIN, THAT WAS, WHAT, A WEEK
r 16 A. A WEEK AFTER.
l
17 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT Y, HANDWRITTEN LETTER,
r 18 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 19
20
Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN
r 21
22
MARKED -- SHOWING OPPOSING COUNSEL WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED
AS DEFENSE Y.
r 23
24
SHOWING THE WITNESS DEFENSE Y -- AGAIN, SORRY
FOR THE ORDER, YOUR HONOR, OF THE EXHIBITS -- WHAT IS
r 25 THAT?
r 26
27
A.
LOMA.
IT'S SOMETHING I WROTE ON A POSTER IN POINT
r 28 Q. WHEN DID YOU WRITE IT?
r
'-J
401
, J
1 A. LIKE A WEEK AFTER THAT HAPPENED.

2 Q. A WEEK AFTER THE SHOOTING? 1
3 A. YEAH.
4
5
Q.
A.
A WEEK AFTER SEPTEMBER 13, 2008?
YEAH. , j
6 Q. WHO DID YOU WRITE IT TO?
7
8
A. WELL, IT WAS JUST A POSTER, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY
WERE GOING TO HANG, AND EVERYBODY -- IT SAID, "REST IN
l
9 PEACE, MOISES LOPEZ." AND I WROTE IT RIGHT THERE. 1 !
10 Q. YOU WROTE IT TO MOISES?

11 A. YEAH. l
12 Q. IN HIS MEMORY? IN HIS HONOR?
13 A. YEAH. l
14
15
Q. IT SAYS
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PERHAPS WE SHOULD GO
l
17 SIDEBAR, YOUR HONOR.
18 THE COURT: WE SHOULD. SIDEBAR RULE IS IN l
19 EFFECT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THANK YOU. IT WILL BE
20 UNREPORTED FOR A MOMENT. l
22 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'RE BACK ON THE
l
23
24
RECORD. THE REQUEST TO HAVE THE WITNESS READ
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT Y IS SUSTAINED WITHOUT PREJUDICE.
l
25 THAT REQUEST MAY BE RENEWED WHEN A PROPER FOUNDATION IS l
26 LAID AT A FUTURE TIME, BUT THAT'S NOT NOW.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR l
28 HONOR.
l
1
r 402
r 2 Q. TURNING TO EXHIBIT Y AGAIN, MR. GUTIERREZ, YOU
r
3 WROTE THAT WHEN THE INCIDENTS OF THIS NIGHT WERE FRESH
4 IN YOUR MEMORY, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
MOISES LOPEZ, YOU DESCRIBE HIM AS A CLOSE
r 7
8
FRIEND, RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
HOW CLOSE?
WELL, I ONLY MET HIM FOR LIKE TWO, THREE YEARS,
r 11 AND WE WERE CLOSE FRIENDS EVER SINCE WE MET. AND LIKE
r 12
13
WHEN WE'RE HANGING TOGETHER, LIKE, SOMETIMES, AND, YEAH,
WE JUST TALK ABOUT A LOT OF STUFF.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
YOU'RE NOT HAPPY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM.
NO, I'M NOT.
r 16
17
Q. YOU'D LIKE TO SEE WHOEVER DID IT GO TO JAIL,
WOULDN'T YOU?
r 18 A. YEAH.
r 19
20
Q. YOU'D LIKE TO SEE WHOEVER DID IT BE PUNISHED
FOR WHAT THEY DID.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
SO IF YOU COULD HELP IN ANY WAY TO FIND AND
r 23
24
PUNISH THAT PERSON, YOU WOULD, WOULDN'T YOU?
A. I WOULD.
r 25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
REDIRECT?
r 28 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
r
403
~I
!
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. IN ORDER TO GET TO THE COMMUNITY CENTER FROM
4 CAROL'S HOUSE, WHAT STREET DID YOU TAKE? l
A. WE WENT DOWN OCEAN VIEW ON 40TH. WE TOOK A
5
6 LEFT, JUST AROUND THE PARK.
l
7
8
Q. THIS INTERSECTION BETWEEN OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH,
THERE'S A FOUR-WAY LIGHT, CORRECT?
l
9 A. YEAH. l
10 Q. AND THERE'S, AS WE CAN SEE IN THE PHOTOGRAPH,
11 PLENTY OF STREETLIGHTS ALL UP AND DOWN THIS STREET, l
12 CORRECT?
13 A. WELL, NOT REALLY. l
14
15
Q. SO WHEN I'M LOOKING AT A STREETLIGHT HERE,
HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, AND HERE,
l
16 THOSE AREN'T THERE?
l
17 A. MOST OF THEM DON'T WORK. PEOPLE POP THEM.
18 Q. SO YOU SAY. l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
20 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. WHEN YOU'RE AT THAT CORNER, DID YOU HAVE ANY
l
23
24
PROBLEMS SEEING THE BATHROOMS?
A. NO, I CAN'T REMEMBER THAT DAY, LIKE THAT PART.
l
25 Q. YOU CAN'T REMEMBER NOW. YOU COULD REMEMBER ON l
26 CROSS-EXAMINATION, THOUGH, CORRECT?
1j
l
1
r 404
r 1 THE WITNESS: I CAN REMEMBER WHAT? CAN YOU
r 2 REPEAT THAT?
r
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. YOU CAN REMEMBER WHEN HE WAS ASKING YOU THE
r 5
6
QUESTIONS?
A. YEAH, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER LIKE IF I COULD SEE
r 7
8
THE PARK THAT DAY.
Q. DO I HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION IN A DIFFERENT
r 9 WAY?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
GO AHEAD.
DID YOU EVER TURN YOUR HEAD TO THE RIGHT AS YOU
r 12
13
DROVE DOWN OCEAN VIEW?
A. I DIDN'T.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE WE WEREN'T AT THAT PARK. WE WERE
r 16
17
SUPPOSED TO BE AT -- WE WERE AT THE OTHER ONE.
Q. YOU WERE RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET.
r 18 A. YEAH.
r 19
20 PARK?
Q. YOU NEVER WENT LIKE THIS AND LOOKED UP INTO THE
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
AS YOU'RE ACTIVELY LOOKING FOR ONE OF YOUR BEST
r 23
24
FRIENDS
A. YEAH.
r 25
26
Q. YOU DROVE AROUND THE ENTIRE PERIMETER OF THE
SOUTH PARK, AS YOU'VE SAID --
r 27 A. YEAH.
r 28 Q. -- BUT YOU NEVER TURNED YOUR HEAD TO THE RIGHT
r
,
,
I
405
J
1 AS YOU'RE DRIVING BY THE NORTH PART OF THE PARK?
l
2
3
A.
Q.
NOPE.
AND YOU NEVER WENT TO HIS HOUSE? ,
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
I DIDN'T.
EVEN THOUGH IT'S ANOTHER BLOCK AWAY?
HIS MOM DIDN'T LIKE US.
, j
}
8
Q.
A.
EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ONE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS?
UH-HUH. YEAH.
l
9 Q. AND YOU NEVER -- EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ONE OF YOUR l
10 BEST FRIENDS AND YOU TALKED ABOUT ALL THESE THINGS
11 BECAUSE HE WAS SO CLOSE TO YOU -- l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. YOU DIDN'T KNOW HIS GIRLFRIEND? l
14 A. HE DIDN'T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND.
15 Q. DID YOU KNOW ISMAEL'S GIRLFRIEND FOR THE LAST
l
16
17
COUPLE OF YEARS?
A. I DON'T.
l
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAD A GIRLFRIEND? l
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. DID YOU EVER MEET HER? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF POSSIBLY MOISES AND ISMAEL MAY
l
23
24
HAVE DATED THE SAME PERSON?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
l
25 Q. BUT THEY'RE YOUR CLOSEST FRIENDS, SIR. l
26 A. I KNOW.
27 Q. AND YOU DON'T KNOW THIS? l
28 A. WE DON'T TALK ABOUT OUR GIRLFRIENDS.
l
l
r 406
r 1 Q. YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT GIRLS YOU LIKE?
r 2 A. YEAH, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE GOING TO BE
r
3 TALKING ABOUT -- GOSSIPING ABOUT GIRLS, YOU KNOW. WE
4 DON'T CARE. THAT'S OUR PERSONAL LIVES, YOU KNOW.
r 5
6
Q. WE HEARD HOW RONALD MARTINEZ IS LIKE A GIRL IN
TERMS OF GETTING READY TO GET DRESSED, BUT YOU GUYS
r 7
8
DON'T TALK ABOUT ACTUAL GIRLFRIENDS?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 9
10
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
WE DON'T.
r 11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q. AND, AGAIN, IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT IT'S OKAY
FOR YOU TO SHOW UP TO QUINCEANERAS IN CLOTHES YOU WORE
r 14
15
TO A BARBECUE FOUR HOURS BEFORE?
A. IT'S COOL, YEAH.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
NOT A BIG DEAL?
NO.
r 18 Q. FOR THE RECORD TODAY, WHAT COLOR IS YOUR
r 19
20
SWEATSHIRT?
A. GRAY.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT'S THE SHIRT YOU GOT UNDERNEATH IT?
TRAVEL.
r 23
24
Q. AND YOU'RE WEARING BLACK PANTS TOO.
THE COURT: IT'S A WHAT SHIRT?
r 25
26
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
IT'S CALLED TRAVEL GEAR.
TRAVEL GEAR. THANK YOU.
r 27 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. COULD YOU OPEN IT SO THE JURY COULD SEE IT.
r
,
407
,
J
,
i
1 IT'S LIKE A BLACK STAR WITH A PENTAGON AROUND IT.
2
3
4
A.
Q.
YEAH.
NOW, IN TERMS OF WHERE YOU LIVED BEFORE YOU
MOVED TO CHICAGO, WHERE WERE YOU LIVING IN REFERENCE TO
,
j
5
6
THE PARK?
A. PRETTY FAR AWAY. 35TH, 25 MARKET STREET,
1
7 ISLAND AVENUE.
1
8 Q. WHY DID YOU MOVE TO CHICAGO AGAIN FOR A YEAR?
9 A. TO GRADUATE HIGH SCHOOL. I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH l
10 CREDITS.
11 Q. THAT WAS LAST YEAR, RIGHT? l
12 A. YEAH, LIKE A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
13 Q. AROUND OCTOBER OF LAST YEAR? l
14
15
A. I THINK.
l
l
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION l
20 Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, THIS IS PROSECUTOR'S 1. l
21 ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE NORTH PART OF THE
22 PARK?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
NOW, THAT ONE IS CALLED OCEAN VIEW PARK,
l
25 CORRECT? l
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW THE APPROXIMATE DISTANCE BETWEEN l
28 OCEAN VIEW PARK AND FRANKLIN AVENUE? COULD YOU ESTIMATE
l
l
r 408
r 1 THAT?
r 2 A. NOT REALLY.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
IT'S PRETTY FAR, CORRECT?
YEAH.
r 5
6
Q. THESE HOUSES -- THESE OBJECTS THAT LOOK LIKE
SQUARES ON THE DIAGRAM, EACH ONE IS AN INDIVIDUAL HOUSE,
r 7
8
RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
r 9
10
Q. THIS PHOTOGRAPH APPEARS TO BE A SATELLITE
PHOTOGRAPH, NO?
r 11 A. YEAH.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
OF A VERY LARGE AREA OF TERRITORY, RIGHT?
YEAH.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
ANYTHING FURTHER?
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO.
MR. GUTIERREZ, YOU'RE GOING TO
r 18 REMAIN UNDER SUBPOENA IN THIS CASE. WE'LL NEED YOU BACK
r 19
20
HERE TO TESTIFY AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.
HERE WHEN YOU'RE TOLD TO COME BACK.
YOU NEED TO BE
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
r 21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
OKAY.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, SIR. YOU
r 23
24
MAY STEP DOWN.
MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE CALL HESNEYDA BUENDIA.
r 25
26
r 28 HELP YOU GOD?
r
~
I
409
~
1
1
1 THE WITNESS: YES. YES, I DO.
l
2
3
4
THE CLERK:
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
GOOD MORNING.
PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT
RIGHT UP NEXT TO ME
, 1
5 IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. THANK YOU.

7
8
THE WITNESS: OKAY. IT'S HESNEYDA BUENDIA.
l
~
9 H-E-S-N-E-Y-D-A, B-U-E-N-D-I-A. I
J
10 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY.

11 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. l
12 HESNEYDA BUENDIA,
13 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN THROUGH l
14
15
FOLLOWS:
l
l
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. BUENDIA. l
19 A. HELLO. GOOD MORNING.
20 Q. WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT EVENTS THAT l
21 OCCURRED BACK IN 2008, SPECIFICALLY SEPTEMBER OF 2008.
22 AT THAT TIME WERE YOU LIVING IN A HOUSE NEXT TO
l
23
24
MOUNTAIN VIEW OR OCEAN VIEW PARK?
A. YES.
1
25 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S l
26 EXHIBIT 2. IT'S THIS LARGE PHOTOGRAPH.
27 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS SECTION OF THE PARK? l
28 A. YES.
l
1
r 410
r 1 Q. CAN WE SEE THE HOUSE YOU WERE LIVING IN IN 2008
r 2 IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH? IF YOU NEED TO, YOU CAN COME DOWN
r 3
4
AND LOOK AT THE STREET NAMES AND
A. YES.
r 5
6
THE COURT: YOU MAY GET AS CLOSE AS YOU WANT,
MA'AM, AND THEN I'LL ASK HER AND THE INTERPRETER TO THEN
i 7
8
STEP OUT OF THE WAY SO THE JURORS CAN SEE.
THE WITNESS: IT'S RIGHT HERE.
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA:
POINT IT OUT.
RESUME THE WITNESS STAND AND I'LL
r 11 THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED, FOR THE RECORD, THE
r 12
13
HOUSE ON FRANKLIN IMMEDIATELY TO THE LEFT OF THE DIRT
ALLEY THAT SEPARATES THE PARK FROM THE HOUSES.
r 14
15 REFLECT.
THE COURT: SHE DID. THE RECORD WILL SO
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. AT SOME POINT IN SEPTEMBER OF 2008, DID IT COME
r 18 TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT THERE WAS A SHOOTING IN THE PARK
r 19
20
NEXT TO YOUR HOUSE?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. WERE YOU PRESENT OR WERE YOU AT HOME THE NIGHT
OF THE SHOOTING?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
THE FOLLOWING MORNING WERE YOU AT YOUR HOUSE?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
SOME POINT?
DID YOU GO OUTSIDE TO YOUR BACK OR SIDE YARD AT
r 28 A. YES.
r
411
,
J
l
1 Q. WHEN YOU DID, DID YOU SEE ANY OBJECTS OR ITEMS
2 THAT WERE NOT THERE THE DAY BEFORE? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHAT DID YOU FIND? l
A. A WHITE SHIRT WITH BLOOD AND BLOOD DROPS ON THE
5
6 PATIO ON THE RIGHT SIDE.
l
7
8
Q. DID YOU ALSO HAVE AN INFLATABLE CHILDREN'S POOL
IN THE BACK YARD?
l
9 A. YES, AND IT ALSO HAD BLOOD DROPS. l
10 Q. UPON SEEING THIS BLOOD AND THIS T-SHIRT, WHAT
11 DID YOU DO? l
12 A. I CALLED THE POLICE.
13 Q. DID YOU TOUCH ANY OF THE ITEMS AT ANY TIME? l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
DID THE POLICE ARRIVE?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. DID YOU POINT THESE ITEMS OUT TO THE OFFICERS?
18 A. YES. l
20 A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE. l
21 Q. LET ME ASK IT AGAIN. WAS IT THE DAY OR THE
22 SAME MORNING THAT YOU FOUND ALL OF THESE ITEMS?
l
23
24
A.
MORNING.
YES. YES. IT WAS THE NEXT DAY, EARLY IN THE
l
25 Q. THE DAY YOU CALLED, THEY CAME AND GOT THESE l
26 THINGS?
27 A. UH-HUH. YES. l
28 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER
l
,
r 412
r 1 OF THIS WITNESS.
r
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR, THANK YOU.
r 5
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 7
8
Q. MS. BUENDIA, THE HOUSE HERE IS WHERE YOU
LIVED IN 2008, CORRECT? AND I'M POINTING TO THE HOUSE,
r 9 FOR THE RECORD
r 10
11
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SORRY. THE ANSWER IS?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
FOR THE RECORD, I'M POINTING TO THE HOUSE ON
r 14
15
THE CORNER OF WHERE THE ALLEY MEETS FRANKLIN, TO THE
LEFT OF THE ALLEY ON PROSECUTION 2.
r 16
17
THE SHIRT WAS FOUND IN THE TOP RIGHT CORNER OF
THE HOUSE, BUT ON THE CLIFF THAT'S NEXT TO THE ALLEY,
r 18 CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THE CHILDREN'S POOL IS IN THAT SAME CORNER,
r 21
22
CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. AND THE BLOOD DROPS WERE FOUND ON THE BOTTOM
LEFT CORNER -- EXCUSE ME -- BOTTOM RIGHT CORNER OF THE
r 25
26
HOUSE, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 27 Q. THEY WERE FOUND ON A BOARD THAT YOU USED TO
r 28 MAKE A RAMP OUT OF WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE A STEP,
r
413
,
1
2
CORRECT?
A. YES.
,
J
3 Q. NOW, THE BACK SIDE OF YOUR HOUSE ON THE TOP

1
4 WHAT WOULD BE THE TOP LEFT, THERE IS A FENCE THAT
SEPARATES YOUR HOUSE FROM THE HOUSE DIRECTLY TO THE LEFT ,
,
5
J
6 OF YOUR HOUSE ON PROSECUTION 2, CORRECT?
7 A. YES.
1
8 Q. BUT THAT FENCE -- IF YOU OR ANYBODY JUMPED OVER
9 IT, YOU'D BE IN THE YARD OF THE HOUSE TO THE LEFT OF l
10 YOURS, CORRECT?
11 A. I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND. l
12 Q. SURE. THE FENCE THAT IS ON THE TOP LEFT OF
13 YOUR HOUSE, IF YOU -- ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT FENCE IS l
14
15
THE YARD OF THE HOUSE THAT'S DIRECTLY TO THE LEFT,
ACCORDING TO PROSECUTION 2, OF YOUR HOUSE, CORRECT?
l
16 A. YES.
l
19 REDIRECT?
20 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU. l
21 THE COURT: MAY MS. BUENDIA BE EXCUSED?
22 MR. TROCHA: YES.
1
23
24 TO COURT.
THE COURT: MS. BUENDIA, THANK YOU FOR COMING
YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE.
l
25 PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON HERE IN COURT WITH l
26 ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL
27 THE CASE IS OVER. OKAY? l
28 THE WITNESS: YES, THAT'S FINE.
l
,
r 414
r 1 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
r 2 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.

3 MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE AT THIS TIME CALL NATALIE
r 4 ELIAS.
r 5
6
r 7
8
HELP YOU GOD?
r 10
11
THE CLERK:
THE WITNESS STAND.
r 12
13 PLEASE.
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING.
UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU WOULD,
THANK YOU.
r 14
15
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
NATALIE ELIAS, E-L-I-A-S.
THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY
r 18 QUESTION.
r 19
20
NATALIE ELIAS,
r 21
22
r 23
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 25 Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. ELIAS.
r 26
27
28
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING.
WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT SOME EVENTS THAT
OCCURRED BACK IN SEPTEMBER 2008. WHEN I ASK YOU ABOUT
r
r
415
l
1
2
THINGS OF WHERE YOU LIVED AT THE TIME, YOU'LL BE
INDICATING ITEMS ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2. I DON'T NEED TO
, J
3 KNOW YOUR CURRENT ADDRESS OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE.

4 DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
5 A. OKAY.
6 Q. GOING BACK TO SEPTEMBER OF 2008, WERE YOU
l
7 LIVING IN THE AREA OF OCEAN VIEW OR MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK? l J
8 A. YES.
9 Q. AND AS WE LOOK AT PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, DO YOU l
10 RECOGNIZE THE SECTION OF THE PARK DEPICTED IN THAT
11 PHOTOGRAPH? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. UNDERSTANDING IT'S AN AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH, CAN l
14
15
YOU IDENTIFY THE HOME YOU WERE LIVING IN AT THE TIME?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. IF YOU WOULD, COME DOWN, AND I'M GOING TO GIVE
l
17 YOU A BLUE MARKER. AND JUST PUT AN X ON THE HOME THAT
18 YOU WERE LIVING IN. AND YOU'VE DONE SO. l
19 THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL SO REFLECT.
20 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. NOW, ON THIS NIGHT IN SEPTEMBER, DID YOU HEAR
l
23
24
GUNSHOTS IN THE PARK BEHIND YOUR HOME?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. ABOUT WHAT TIME OF NIGHT WAS THIS? l
26 A. WELL, I WAS HOME ALONE AND I WAS WATCHING TV,
27 SO IT WOULDN'T BE ANY LATER THAN -- NO LATER THAN 10:00. l
28 Q. SO SOMETIME BEFORE 10:00?
l
1
r 416
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q. AND I TAKE IT AT THAT TIME YOU WERE JUST
r 3
4
WATCHING TELEVISION.
A. YEAH.
r 5
6
Q. WHAT DID YOU HEAR THAT INDICATED THERE WAS
GUNFIRE IN THE PARK?
r 7
8
A. WELL, I HAD THE TV ON, BUT I CAN CLEARLY HEAR
THAT THERE WERE SHOTS. I MEAN, IT'S UNDENIABLE WHEN YOU
r 9
10
HEAR A GUNSHOT.
Q. HOW MANY SHOTS DID YOU HEAR?
r 11 A. A FEW. I WOULD SAY MORE THAN FIVE, LESS THAN
r 12
13
TEN.
Q. AND COULD YOU TELL THE DIRECTION IN WHICH THESE
r 14
15
GUNSHOTS WERE COMING FROM?
A. NOT REALLY, NO.
r 16
17
Q. COULD YOU TELL THEY WERE COMING FROM THE PARK
AS OPPOSED TO IN FRONT OF YOUR HOUSE?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT DID YOU DO UPON HEARING THESE GUNSHOTS?
GOT NERVOUS AND CURIOUS, AND I DID GET UP FROM
r 21
22
THE COUCH.
Q. WHERE DID YOU GO?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I HEADED TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR OF THE HOUSE
I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO CUT YOU OFF.

[ 25 A. TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR OF THE HOUSE.
r 26
27
Q. DOES THE FRONT DOOR OPEN ONTO I GUESS IT WOULD
BE FRANKLIN OR CUYAMACA?
r 28 A. YES.
r
417
,
l
1 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU GOT TO THE FRONT DOOR
2 OF YOUR HOUSE? 1
3 A. I WALKED OUTSIDE TO THE FRONT PORCH, AND I SAW
4 TWO GUYS RUNNING FROM THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, WHICH IS 1
5 THE PARK AREA.
6 Q. DOES THE HOUSE RUN THE ENTIRE LENGTH FROM THE
l
7
8
DIRT ALLEY TO CUYAMACA?
A. YES.
l
9 Q. IS THERE A FENCE THAT ALSO RUNS THE WHOLE l
10 LENGTH OF THE HOUSE SEPARATING YOUR YARD FROM ANOTHER
11 PERSON'S YARD? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. HOW WOULD ONE GET INTO YOUR SIDE YARD OR BACK l
14
15
YARD?
A. THEY WOULD GET IN THROUGH THE NEIGHBOR'S FRONT
l
16 YARD, BECAUSE THE FENCE DOES GET SHORTER TOWARDS THE
l
17 FRONT OF THE HOUSE.
~
18 Q. AND YOU SAID YOU SAW TWO MEN? J
19 A. TWO GUYS, YEAH.
20 Q. WHERE DID YOU FIRST SEE THESE TWO GUYS? l
21 A. I SAW ONE RUNNING DOWN THE FRONT YARD OF THE
22 NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE -- OUR HOUSE IS TALLER. I CAN LOOK
l
23
24
DOWN TOWARDS THE NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE -- AND I SAW ONE GUY
RUNNING TOWARDS FRANKLIN AND THE OTHER ONE RUNNING IN TO
1
25 OUR PROPERTY. l
26 Q. NOW, THE FIRST GUY THAT'S RUNNING TOWARDS
27 FRANKLIN, DID YOU SEE THE DIRECTION HE WAS COMING l
28 FROM?
l
,
r 418
r 1 A. HE WAS RUNNING FROM THE PARK THAT WAY, SO I SAW

[ 2 THE BACK OF HIS HEAD.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
COULD YOU DESCRIBE THIS PERSON FOR THE JURY.
HE WAS SLIM. HE WAS TALL, BALD, AND HE HAD A
r 5
6
WHITE UNDERSHIRT, AND HE HAD SOME JEANS; BLUE JEANS, I
GUESS.
r 7
8
Q. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A WHITE UNDERSHIRT,
IS THIS A T-SHIRT OR TANK TOP?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
TANK TOP.
TANK TOP?
r 11 A. UH-HUH.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SLEEVELESS?
YEAH.
r 14
15
Q.
HAVE BEEN?
ABOUT WHAT AGE WOULD YOU SAY THIS PERSON MAY
r 16
17
A.
Q.
MAYBE LATE TWENTIES.
DID YOU GET A LOOK AT HIS FACE?
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT ARE YOU BASING YOUR AGE RANGE OFF OF?
LIKE HIS SIDE PROFILE.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
COULD YOU TELL HIS ETHNICITY?
HISPANIC.
r 23
24
Q.
FRANKLIN?
WHAT DID THIS PERSON DO ONCE THEY REACHED
r 25 A.
Q.
THEY KEPT RUNNING. THEY RAN FAST.
WHICH DIRECTION DID HE RUN? BECAUSE WE CAN SEE
r
26
27 THE ROAD SPLITS.
r 28 A. DOWN FRANKLIN.
[
419
,
l
1 Q. AND, FOR THE RECORD, FRANKLIN RUNS FROM 40TH UP
2 TO THIS SPLIT HERE, CORRECT? l
3 A. RIGHT.
4 Q. TO THE LEFT IS FRANKLIN. l
5 A. RIGHT.
6 Q. WHEREAS TO THE RIGHT IS CUYAMACA.
l
7
8
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
DID HE RUN THEN UP FRANKLIN OR UP CUYAMACA?
l
9 A. UP FRANKLIN.
10 Q. DID YOU LOSE SIGHT OF HIM?
11 A. YEAH. l
12 Q. WAS HE RUNNING FAST?
l
13
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH, REALLY FAST.
THE SECOND PERSON, WAS HE RUNNING TOGETHER WITH
THE FIRST PERSON?
, J
16 A. IT SEEMED LIKE THEY CAME FROM THE SAME 1

J
17 DIRECTION, BUT THEY DIDN'T FOLLOW EACH OTHER. THE

18 SECOND GUY JUMPED THE FENCE TO -- WELL, IT WAS AT MY l
19 HOUSE.
20 Q. SO FROM THE DIRT PATCH IN THE NEIGHBOR'S YARD l
INTO YOUR YARD?
21
22 A. RIGHT.
1
23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT DID HE DO ONCE HE GOT INTO YOUR YARD?
BY THEN I WAS ALREADY IN THE PORCH AND I WAS
1
25 LOOKING DOWN AND I WAS ALERT, AND HE SAW ME AND HE TRIED l
26 TO ASK ME IF HE CAN HIDE.
27 Q. WHAT DID YOU SAY? l
28 A. I SAID, "NO. YOU NEED TO GET OUT."
l
1
r 420
r 1 Q. WHAT DID HE DO NEXT?

[ 2 A. HE SAID -- HE WAS DESPERATE. HE WAS LIKE,
r 3
4
"COME ON. LET ME HIDE.
LOOKED REALLY SCARED.

PLEASE, LET ME HIDE."
I SAID, "NO.
HE
YOU NEED TO GET
r 5
6
OUT.
Q.
SERIOUSLY, LEAVE."
WHERE DID HE GO?
r 7
8
A. HE RAN ACROSS THE FRONT OF OUR YARD AND THEN
JUMPED THE FENCE INTO THE OTHER NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE.
r 9
10
Q.
THE RED ROOF?

THAT WOULD BE THE HOUSE ON THE OTHER SIDE WITH
r 11 A. WITH THE RED ROOF, YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE HIM AFTER THAT?
NO, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE A LIGHT ON THAT
r 14
15
SIDE.
Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE HOW THIS PERSON LOOKED FOR
r 16
17
THE JURY.
A. HE WAS YOUNGER THAN THE OTHER GUY, SHORTER,
r 18 DARKER SKINNED. HE HAD A BLACK SHIRT ON OR A DARK COLOR
r 19
20
SHIRT ON.
HAT.
HE HAD JEANS. AND I BELIEVE HE WAS WEARING A
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS HIS AGE RANGE?
IT WAS PROBABLY IN HIS TEENS.
r 23
24
Q.
CASE, CORRECT?
NOW, YOU TESTIFIED AT A PRIOR HEARING IN THIS
r 25 A. YES.
r
26 Q. AT THAT HEARING, DID YOU SEE THAT PERSON?
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. AT THAT HEARING, WERE YOU ASKED TO IDENTIFY
r
421
1
l
1 THAT PERSON?
l
2
3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU ABLE TO IDENTIFY THAT PERSON AS THE
SAME THAT JUMPED INTO YOUR YARD?
, J
5 A. YES.
6 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, IF WE COULD GO SIDEBAR
l
FOR JUST ONE SECOND ON THIS TOPIC?
l
,
7
8 THE COURT: YES. THANK YOU. OFF THE RECORD.

9 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, SIDEBAR RULE IS IN EFFECT. MA'AM, J
10 JUST SIT THERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.

11 {SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.) l
13 RECORD.
l
14
15
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF
AN UNUSUAL CIRCUMSTANCE, SO I'M GOING TO MAKE A
l
16 STATEMENT TO YOU WHICH YOU MAY CONSIDER AS EVIDENCE IN l
17 THIS CASE.
18 AT A PREVIOUS COURT APPEARANCE WHEN MS. ELIAS l
19 TESTIFIED, SHE WAS ASKED IF, AFTER SHE GAVE PART OF HER
20 TESTIMONY AND WALKED OUTSIDE, SHE SAW OUTSIDE THE l
21
22
COURTROOM THE PERSON THAT SHE HAD THE CONFRONTATION WITH
THAT NIGHT, AND SHE SAID THAT SHE BELIEVED SHE DID.
l
23
24
THAT PERSON WAS BROUGHT INTO THE COURTROOM.
MS. ELIAS WAS BACK ON THE STAND AND SHE WAS
l
25 ASKED -- SHE WAS SHOWN THE YOUNG MAN. THE YOUNG MAN WAS l
26 ANDRES LOPEZ. AND SHE WAS ASKED, "WHAT CAN YOU TELL US
1
27 ABOUT THIS INDIVIDUAL?" \
28 AND SHE SAID, "THAT LOOKS LIKE THE BOY I SAW."

l
1
r 422
r 1 SHE WAS ASKED, "WHAT ABOUT HIM INDICATES TO YOU
r 2 IT IS THE BOY YOU SAW?"
r 3
4
SHE SAID, "THAT FACE.
FOR HIS AGE."
HE LOOKS REALLY YOUNG
r 5
6
SHE WAS ASKED, "DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIS FACE?"
AND SHE ANSWERED, "YES."
r 7
8
SHE WAS ASKED, "IS IT THE SAME FACE THAT YOU
SAW OF THE PERSON THAT YOU TESTIFIED TO TODAY?"
r 9 AND SHE SAID, "YES, SIR."
r 10
11
THE REASON I'M GIVING THIS TO YOU IN THIS
FASHION IS THAT MR. ANDRES LOPEZ IS NOT PRESENT AT THIS
r 12
13
COURT HEARING RIGHT NOW TO BE SHOWN TO THIS WITNESS.
I'M SATISFIED THAT THIS IS ADMISSIBLE FORMER TESTIMONY
r 14
15
TO THAT FACT.
MA'AM, DO YOU REMEMBER THOSE STATEMENTS?
r[ 16 THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.
17 THE COURT: AND DID YOU TESTIFY TRUTHFULLY
r 18 THEN?
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES, SIR.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. I'LL RETURN
r 21
22
THE TRANSCRIPT TO YOU, MR. TROCHA.
YOUR EXAMINATION.
YOU MAY CONTINUE
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
r 25 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAW THIS PERSON AT THE LAST
r 26
27
HEARING, DID HE APPEAR TO BE OLDER THAN WHEN YOU
ORIGINALLY SAW HIM?
r 28 A. YES.
r
423
1
l
1 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE RUN THROUGH YOUR YARD
2 AT THAT TIME THAT NIGHT? l
3 A. NO.
4 Q. DID YOU FIND ANYTHING IN YOUR YARD THAT WAS l
5 UNUSUAL OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE THAT THE POLICE HAD TO
1
6
7
COME GET?
A. NO. I DIDN'T WANT TO GO OUTSIDE.
, J
8 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MS. ELIAS.
9 I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR. l
11 CROSS? l
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
l
14
15
Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. ELIAS.
l
16 A. GOOD MORNING.
l
17 Q. SO YOU SAW TWO PEOPLE RUNNING, CORRECT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. THE FIRST ONE WAS THE BOY? OR WAS THE BOY THE
20 SECOND ONE? l
21 A. THE BOY WAS THE SECOND ONE.
22 Q. THE FIRST ONE WAS RUNNING UP FRANKLIN AVENUE.
l
23
24
AND POINTING ON PROSECUTION 2, THE FIRST ONE WAS RUNNING
ON FRANKLIN AVENUE, WHICH WOULD BE THE FRANKLIN AVENUE
1
25 TO THE LEFT OF YOUR HOUSE, CORRECT? l
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. AND THE BOY WAS RUNNING THAT DIRECTION AS WELL? l
28 A. NO.
l
,
r 424
r 1 Q. WHERE WAS THE BOY RUNNING FROM?
r 2 A. THE BOY WAS RUNNING FROM -- IT SEEMED THAT BOTH
r
3 GUYS WERE RUNNING FROM WHERE THE TREES ARE RIGHT THERE.
4 Q. THESE TREES -- LET ME JUST -- WE HAVE TO
5
r 6
DESCRIBE THIS AS IF A BLIND PERSON WAS HERE, FOR THE
RECORD, SO THAT WE CAN SEE IT ON THE PAPER.
r 7
8
YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE TREES THAT ARE ON
PROSECUTION 2. IN THE PARK, THERE'S A LARGE GROUP OF
r 9 TREES THAT ARE JUST TO THE LEFT OF THE TWO BENCHES.
r 10
11
12
A.
Q.
EXACTLY.
AND THERE'S AN ALLEY HERE, WHICH WOULD BE BELOW

YOUR HOUSE ON PROSECUTION 2.
r 13 A. THAT'S ACTUALLY ALREADY THE FENCE OF THE HOUSE.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
SO, AGAIN, WHERE DID HE RUN FROM?
THEY SEEMED RUNNING FROM THOSE TREES, BUT
r 16
17
THROUGH THE NEIGHBOR'S PROPERTY.
Q. THE PROPERTY BEING THE HOUSE THAT IS NEAR THE
r 18 TOP OF THE TREES; THERE IS A HOUSE TO THE LEFT TOP OF

19 THE TREES.
r 20 A. THAT'S MY HOUSE. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE HOUSE
r 21
22
WITH THE LARGE DIRT LOT IN FRONT OF IT.
THE COURT: IS IT BELOW OR ABOVE YOUR HOUSE?
r 23
24
THE WITNESS: BELOW.
THAT HOUSE HAS A LARGE PROPERTY.

THAT HOUSE RIGHT THERE.
r 26
27
Q. THIS WHOLE PROPERTY HERE. AND I'M CIRCLING THE
PROPERTY THAT IS FULLY BETWEEN FRANKLIN AND THE ALLEY,
28 TO THE LEFT BOTTOM OF THE GROUP OF TREES WE WERE EARLIER
r
r
425
1
l
1 REFERRING TO.
2 A. RIGHT. 1 1
3 Q. AND HE RAN THROUGH THIS HOUSE?

4 A. THROUGH THE LARGE PROPERTY HOUSE, YES. l
5 Q. AND THEN HE TRIED TO CLIMB YOUR FENCE?
6 A. YES.
l
l
,
7 Q. AND YOU TOLD HIM, "HEY, GET OUT OF HERE."
8 A. YES.
9 Q. AND THEN HE LEFT.
10 A. HE RAN ACROSS THE FRONT OF OUR HOUSE, INTO THE
11 NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE WITH THE RED ROOF.
1 )
12 Q. DID HE FINISH CLIMBING THE FENCE?

l
13
14
A.
Q.
TOWARDS THE RED ROOF HOUSE?
THE FENCE YOU'RE REFERRING TO IS BELOW THE X , l
15 YOU DREW, RIGHT?
16 A. UH-HUH.
l
17 Q. DID HE FINISH CLIMBING THE FENCE?
18 A. YEAH. AND AS HE'S DOING THAT, I WAS YELLING AT l
19 HIM, TELLING HIM TO LEAVE.
l
20
21
Q.
A.
AND THEN HE RAN ACROSS
THE FRONT. , J
22 Q. THE FRONT OF YOUR HOUSE BETWEEN FRANKLIN AND
23
24
YOUR HOUSE.
A. RIGHT.
l
25 Q. AND THEN JUMPED THE FENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE l
26 INTO THE NEIGHBOR'S YARD.
27 A. RIGHT. l
28 Q. AND THEN YOU LOST SIGHT OF HIM?
l
r 426
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AND HOW LONG WAS YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
r
3 A. A FEW SECONDS.
4 Q. THREE SECONDS? FOUR SECONDS?
r 5
6
A.
SECONDS.
NO. MORE. IT WAS PROBABLY FIVE SECONDS, SIX
r 7
8
Q.
AND GONE.
IT WASN'T JUST ONE THING SAID BACK AND FORTH
IT WAS A COUPLE OF THINGS.
r 9
10
A. IT WAS A COUPLE OF TIMES. HE WAS REALLY
NERVOUS AND HE JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT HE HAD TO
[ 11 LEAVE. I HAD TO SAY IT TWO OR THREE TIMES TO HIM.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
HE APPEARED NERVOUS?
YEAH.
r 14
15
Q. AND THEN AT THE LAST HEARING ON OCTOBER 6TH,
YOU SAW HIM OUT IN THE HALLWAY, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND WERE YOU APPROACHED BY HIM OR DID YOU
r 18 APPROACH HIM?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T APPROACH HIM.
HOW DID HE -- HOW DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT YOU
r 21
22
RECOGNIZED HIM?
A. THE FACE. IT JUST LOOKS LIKE A REALLY YOUNG
r 23
24
KID'S FACE.
Q. WERE YOU INTRODUCED TO HIM BY SOMEBODY, LIKE AN
r 25
26
INVESTIGATOR?
A. YEAH. THEY ASKED ME, LIKE, "IS THIS THE BOY
r 27 THAT YOU SAW?"
r 28 Q. THE INVESTIGATOR BROUGHT HIM OVER TO YOU?
r
427
l
l
1 A. YEAH. HE WAS SITTING OUTSIDE.
2 Q. SO LET'S GET THIS CLEAR. IT'S NOT LIKE YOU l
3 WENT OUTSIDE, SAW HIM THERE AND WERE LIKE, "THAT'S THE
4 GUY." THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, RIGHT? l
5 A. NO. THEY ASKED ME, "IS HE THE ONE THAT YOU
6 SAW?"
l
7
8 Q.
AND I SAID, "THAT'S HIM."
SO AN INVESTIGATOR BROUGHT HIM TO YOU?
l
9 A. UH-HUH. 1
10 Q. WAS THAT SAL CAMPOS? DO YOU REMEMBER?
11 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO IT WAS. I DON'T KNOW THE l
12 NAME.
13 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHO THE PERSON WORKED FOR? l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
DID THE PERSON SEEM TO KNOW MR. TROCHA, THE
l
16 PROSECUTOR IN THIS CASE?
l
17 A. PROBABLY.
18 Q. DID THEY -- WELL, WHEN YOU WERE PRESENT, DID 1
19 THIS PERSON TALK TO MR. TROCHA?
20 A. "THIS PERSON," THE INVESTIGATOR? l
21 Q. THE INVESTIGATOR WHO INTRODUCED YOU TO ANDRES.
22 A. NO, I DIDN'T SEE HIM TALK TO HIM.
l
23
24
Q. OKAY. SO THE INVESTIGATOR, AS YOU WERE
LEAVING, BROUGHT HIM TO YOU AND SAID, "IS THIS THE GUY?"
1
25 A. WELL, HE WAS -- I WALKED OUT THE DOOR, HE WAS l
26 ALREADY SITTING DOWN ON THE BENCH, AND MR. TROCHA ASKED
27 ME, "IS THIS THE ONE THAT YOU SAW?" AND I SAID, "YES." l
28 Q. SO IT WAS MR. TROCHA WHO ASKED YOU?
l
1
r 428
r 1 A. YEAH, ASKED ME, "IS THIS THE YOUNG GUY THAT YOU
r 2 SAW ON YOUR PROPERTY?" AND I SAID, "YES."
r
3 Q. AND THE INVESTIGATOR WAS ALSO PRESENT TO
4 WITNESS THIS?
r 5
6
A. I WOULD ASSUME.
DON'T KNOW WHO HE WAS.

THERE WAS A GUY WITH HIM. I
r 7
8
Q. ALL RIGHT.
I DO RECOGNIZE HIM."
AND THEN YOU TOLD MR. TROCHA, "YES,
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YEAH.
OKAY. OCTOBER 6, 2010, IS WHEN THIS HAPPENED,

r 11 RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
UH-HUH. YES.
THIS WAS THE NIGHT YOU SAW THIS PERSON TRYING
r 14
15
TO JUMP YOUR FENCE.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE DATE?
TWO YEARS BEFORE THE OCTOBER HEARING.
r 16
17
Q. SO SEPTEMBER 13, 2008 -- I'M GOING TO THROW OUT
THAT DATE -- WOULD THAT BE APPROXIMATELY THE DATE THAT
r 18
19
YOU SAW THE YOUNG MAN TRY AND JUMP THE FENCE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE.

[ 20 Q. BUT IT WAS MORE THAN TWO YEARS BEFORE THE LAST
r 21
22
TIME YOU TESTIFIED.
A. YEAH.
r 23
24
Q. IT WAS MORE THAN TWO YEARS BEFORE MR. TROCHA
ASKED YOU IF YOU RECOGNIZED THE YOUNG GENTLEMAN.
r 25 A. RIGHT.
r 26
27
Q. SO HAD YOU MET HIM -- THE YOUNG MAN WHO TRIED
TO JUMP YOUR FENCE, HAD YOU MET HIM BEFORE THE DATE HE
r 28 TRIED TO JUMP YOUR FENCE?
r
429
1
1 A. HE LOOKED FAMILIAR, BUT I CAN'T SAY I KNOW HIM.
l
2 Q. HAD YOU MET HIM AFTER, BESIDES OCTOBER 6TH? l
3 A. NO.
4 Q. SO YOU HADN'T SEEN HIM SINCE? l
5 A. NO.
6 Q. DID MR. TROCHA OR ANY D.A. INVESTIGATOR SHOW
l
7
8
YOU A PICTURE OF HIM IN AN ARRAY WITH OTHER PICTURES?
A. NO.
l
9 Q. DID YOU EVER AT ANY POINT GO TO A POLICE 1
10 STATION AND SIT IN A DARK ROOM AND THROUGH A PLATE GLASS
11 SEE A GROUP OF MEN WITH THIS PERSON WHO TRIED TO JUMP l
12 YOUR FENCE IN THAT GROUP OF MEN AND PICK HIM OUT THEN?
13 A. NO. l
14
15
Q. SO THE ONLY TIME YOU RECOGNIZED HIM WAS WHEN
MR. TROCHA ASKED YOU, "IS THIS THE GUY?"
l
16 A. RIGHT.
l
19 MR. TROCHA?
20 MR. TROCHA: JUST TO CLEAR A COUPLE THINGS UP. l
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
23
24
Q. MS. ELIAS, WHEN COUNSEL ASKED YOU IF THE
PERSON WAS RUNNING UP FRANKLIN, THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY
l
25 CORRECT, IS IT? HE DIDN'T RUN THIS PART OF FRANKLIN, l
26 DID HE?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. WHERE DID HE RUN?
l
1
r 430
r 1 A. THAT IS FRANKLIN, BUT THE FIRST GUY, THE TALL
r 2 ONE, HE WAS RUNNING FROM -- BOTH OF THE GUYS WERE
r
3 RUNNING FROM THOSE TREES, THROUGH THAT LARGE DIRT LOT,
4 AND ONE OF THEM RAN UP FRANKLIN THAT WAY AFTER THE
r 5
6
DIVISION, AND THE OTHER RAN THROUGH OUR PROPERTY.
Q. SO THEY BOTH RAN FROM THE PARK THROUGH THE DIRT
r 7
8
LOT?
A. RIGHT.
r 9
10 POINT.
Q. AND THEN ONE OF THEM WENT UP FRANKLIN AT THAT
r 11 A. YEAH.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU RECOGNIZE ME TODAY, CORRECT?
YEAH. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
YEAR, RIGHT?
WE'VE ONLY MET ONCE BACK IN OCTOBER OF LAST
[ 16 A. YES.
17 Q. SURE IT'S ME?
r 18 A. YES.
19 Q. YOU DON'T NEED FIVE OTHER PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE

[ 20 ME TO MAKE SURE IT'S ME?
r 21
22
A. NO.
r 23
24
THE COURT: RECROSS?
r 25
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
r 27 Q. YOU'VE MET MR. TROCHA BEFORE, BECAUSE HE
r 28 QUESTIONED YOU ON THE WITNESS STAND, RIGHT?
r
431
l
l
1
2
3
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
IN A LIT COURTROOM.
YES.
,
4 Q. HE QUESTIONED YOU FOR, WHAT, A HALF HOUR? l
5 A. IT SEEMED LIKE ABOUT HALF AN HOUR.
6 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU LEFT, DID HE SAY "THANK YOU"
l
7
8
OR "THANKS FOR HELPING OUT" OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
A. THAT'S ALL, AND THEN WALKED AWAY.
l
9 Q. DID YOU TALK TO HIM BEFORE THAT? l
10 A. NO.
11 Q. BEFORE YOU WERE -- BEFORE OCTOBER 6, 2010, HAVE l
12 YOU EVER TESTIFIED BEFORE?
l
13
14
15
A.
Q.
A.
NO.
THIS IS THE FIRST -- THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME?
YES.
,
16 Q. AND THE FIRST TIME AN ATTORNEY HAS ASKED YOU
l
17 QUESTIONS ON THE WITNESS STAND, THAT WAS MR. TROCHA?
18 A. RIGHT. l
19 Q. AND HE WAS WEARING A SUIT AND TIE, JUST LIKE
20 TODAY? l
21 A. RIGHT.
22 Q. AND NOW MR. LOPEZ, YOU ONLY SAW HIM FOR ABOUT
l
23
24
SIX SECONDS, CORRECT?
A. I SAW HIM FOR A BRIEF MOMENT, BUT THE LIGHT IN
l
25 FRONT OF OUR HOUSE IS EXTREMELY BRIGHT. l
26 Q. IT WAS NIGHTTIME, THOUGH.
27 A. YEAH, AND THAT LIGHT WAS BRIGHT. l
28 Q. AND YOU HAD SAW HIM WHEN YOU WERE SCARED?
l
l
[
432
r 1 A. UH-HUH. I WAS NERVOUS. I WASN'T SHAKING, BUT
r 2 I WAS LIKE -- I COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE WERE TRYING
r 3
4
TO GET INTO OUR HOUSE AFTER I JUST HEARD GUNSHOTS.
Q. AND THERE WAS A LOT GOING ON AT THAT TIME,
5 CORRECT?
r 6 A. WELL, YEAH, BECAUSE YOU HEAR SOMEBODY JUMPING
r 7
8
ON YOUR FENCE. AND THEN ON THE SECTION THAT HE JUMPED,
WE HAVE OUR RECYCLE BINS, SO THEY HAVE A LOT OF CANS AND
r 9 BOTTLES, AND IT'S NOISY WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO JUMP OVER
10 THAT STUFF.
r 11 SO I WAS NERVOUS, BUT I WASN'T TOO SCARED WHERE
12 I WASN'T GOING TO GO OUTSIDE. I WAS BY MYSELF, BUT I
[ 13 THOUGHT TO MYSELF, "IF SOMEBODY IS ON THE PROPERTY, YOU
r 14
15
BETTER DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT." SO THAT'S WHY I GOT UP.
I WASN'T TOO SCARED, BUT I WAS A LITTLE SCARED.
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
MAY MS. ELIAS BE EXCUSED?
r 18
19
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
YES.
MS. ELIAS, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
r 20 COURT, MA'AM. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE FREE TO
r 21
22
LEAVE. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS WHAT WENT ON IN THE
COURTROOM WITH ANY OTHER WITNESSES, EXCEPT
r 23
24
INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THIS CASE IS OVER.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.

OKAY?
r 25 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD DAY TO YOU. THANK
r 26
27
YOU.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE THE NOON
r 28 RECESS. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
r
1
1 CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON
433
,
J
2 ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL, OR TO FORM OR l

3 EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS FINALLY
4 SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION. PLEASE LEAVE THE l
5
6
NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.
WE'LL RECONVENE OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM AT 1:30.
l
7
8
THANK YOU. WATCH THOSE CURBS.
1
9 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) l
10 THE COURT: ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM.
11 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM. l
12 WHEN MR. JOSUE GUTIERREZ WAS ON THE WITNESS
13 STAND, COUNSEL ASKED HIM ABOUT DEFENSE EXHIBIT Y, ASKED
l
14 THAT HE WOULD READ IT. COUNSEL FOR THE PEOPLE LODGED AN
l
15
16
17
OBJECTION.
SIDEBAR.
WE ARGUED THE MATTER OFF THE RECORD AT
THE COURT RULED -- THE COURT SUSTAINED THE

,
18 PROSECUTION'S OBJECTION WITHOUT PREJUDICE TO REVISITING l
19 IT. THE COURT'S SENSE WAS THAT IT WAS SUCH A
20 SELF-SERVING AND UNLIKELY HEARSAY STATEMENT THAT IT l
21 WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO REQUIRE THE ACTUAL FOUNDATION
22 FOR PRIOR INCONSISTENT AND PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENTS
l
23
24
TO BE LAID BEFORE HE WAS QUESTIONED ABOUT IT.
I REALIZE I HAD THE DISCRETION TO LET THAT
l
25 QUESTIONING OCCUR RIGHT NOW, BUT I THINK THAT UNDER THE l
26 CIRCUMSTANCES IT'S IMPORTANT THAT MR. GUTIERREZ BE
27 BROUGHT BACK INTO COURT TO DO THAT AND THAT THAT OCCUR l
28 AFTER THE APPROPRIATE FOUNDATIONAL FACTS HAVE BEEN LAID;
1
,
r 434
r 1 NAMELY, PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS.
r 2
3
I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY THE TIMING OF THE REPORTED
STATEMENTS TO MS. BERUMEN. WE STILL NEED TO HAVE A 402
r 4 HEARING, I THINK, WITH RESPECT TO PART OF THAT. BUT THE
5 COURT SUSTAINED THE OBJECTION WITHOUT PREJUDICE TO
r 6 COUNSEL SEEKING TO REINTRODUCE THAT MATTER UPON
r 7
8
FOUNDATION BEING LAID.
IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WOULD LIKE TO ADD,
r 9
10
MR. SPEREDELOZZI --
r
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
11 THE COURT: -- WITH RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE?
r 12
13
THANK YOU.
WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF THE COURT'S
r 14
15
INSTRUCTION TO THE JURY OF NATALIE ELIAS' FORMER
TESTIMONY ABOUT ANDRES LOPEZ, IT WAS EXPLAINED TO ME AT
r 16
17
SIDEBAR THAT THE PROSECUTION DID NOT HAVE A PICTURE OF
ANDRES TO SHOW HER. I WAS SHOWN THE TRANSCRIPT THAT I
r 18 QUOTED FROM, THIS FROM THE OCTOBER PROCEEDING.
r 19
20
THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT THE COURT DID
THIS OVER MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S OBJECTION, AND I'LL BE GLAD
r 21
22
TO LET YOU MAKE A FURTHER STATEMENT OF THAT, IF YOU
WISH.
r 23
24
THAT NO FOUNDATION WAS LAID FOR THE PRIOR
ONLY
r 25 IDENTIFICATION. THE ELEMENT THAT THE STATEMENT WAS MADE

26 AT A TIME WHEN THE CRIME OR OTHER OCCURRENCE WAS FRESH
r 27 IN THE WITNESS'S MEMORY HAD NOT BEEN MET. IT HAD BEEN
28 OVER TWO YEARS SINCE THIS OCCURRENCE, AND I DON'T
r
r
435
l
l
1 BELIEVE THAT'S SUFFICIENT TO MEET THAT ELEMENT OF THE
2 FOUNDATION. l
3 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. THE
4 OBJECTION IS NOTED FOR THE RECORD AND OVERRULED. AND, l
5 OF COURSE, I HAVE GONE AHEAD AND MADE THE STATEMENT THAT
6 I MADE.
l
7
8
WE WILL RECONVENE AT 1:30.
MR. TROCHA: MARLA QUINTANILLA.
WHO'S NEXT UP?
l
9 THE COURT: AND AFTER MARLA? l
10 MR. TROCHA: I BELIEVE POLICE OFFICERS MARK
11 LUCCHESI, AND THEN WE WILL GET AS FAR AS WE CAN GET WITH l
12 CRENSHAW, EULER AND GONZALEZ.
13 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU BOTH. SEE
l
14
15
YOU ALL THIS AFTERNOON, 1:30. WE ARE IN RECESS.
l
16 BE RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.) l
17 Ill
18 Ill l
19 Ill
20 Ill l
Ill
21
22 Ill
l
23 Ill l
24 Ill
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
l
,
r 436
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2011; 1:32 PM
r 2
r
4 AND GENTLEMEN. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE
r 5
6
PRESENT. THAT REFERENCE, AS ALWAYS, INCLUDES THE
ALTERNATE JURORS. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT
r' 7
8
AS WELL.
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS.
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA:
CALL MARLA QUINTANILLA.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE
r 12
13
TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH SO
[ 14 HELP YOU GOD?

r 16
17 HERE.
GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU.
PLEASE HAVE A SEAT UP
r 18 THE CLERK: COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL
r 19
20
THE WITNESS: IT'S MARLA QUINTANILLA,
r 21
22
Q-U-I-N-T-A-N-I-L-L-A.
THE COURT: MS. QUINTANILLA, THANK YOU.
r 23
24
r 25
26
MARLA QUINTANILLA,
r 27 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
r 28 Ill
r
437
l
l
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. QUINTANILLA.
4 LET'S START OFF RIGHT OFF THE BAT, DO YOU WANT l
5 TO BE HERE TODAY?
6 A. NO.
l
7 Q. WHY NOT?
'l
8 A. BECAUSE THIS IS STRESSFUL FOR ME.
9 Q. IN FACT, THE ONLY REASON YOU'RE HERE IS BECAUSE l
10 YOU WERE ORDERED TO BE HERE BY THE COURT.
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. YOU'VE TESTIFIED IN THIS CASE PREVIOUSLY,
13 CORRECT?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
SO YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE TOPICS WE'LL BE
l
16 DISCUSSING TODAY.
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. STARTING OFF WITH EDWIN QUINTANILLA, HE WAS A l
19 BROTHER OF YOURS; IS THAT RIGHT?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. HOW OLD WAS HE WHEN HE DIED?
22 A. 17. HE HAD JUST TURNED 17.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
AND HOW DID HE DIE?
HE GOT SHOT.
l
25 Q. AND WHAT DATE DID THIS OCCUR ON? l
26 A. I DON'T REMEMBER NOW.
27 Q. WAS IT BACK ON JULY 2, 2008? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 438
r 1 Q. WHERE DID THIS OCCUR?
r 2 A. ON OCEAN VIEW.
r 3
4
Q. WOULD THIS BE NEAR THE 38TH OR 39TH BLOCK OF
OCEAN VIEW?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
IN BETWEEN.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH AN ADDRESS ON TEAK
r 7
8
STREET, T-E-A-K?
A. UH-HUH. YES.
r 9 Q. YOU HAVE OTHER BROTHERS, CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
ONE OF THESE BROTHERS IS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT ARE YOUR OTHER BROTHERS' NAMES?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
ALL OF THEM?
ALL OF THEM.
r 16
17
A. WILLIAM QUINTANILLA, RUBEN QUINTANILLA, AND
JOVANI AGUIRRE.
r 18 Q. WHAT WAS THE LAST ONE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
JOVANI AGUIRRE.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A GROUP KNOWN AS THE
r 21
22
SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET GANG OR SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
LOCOS?
l 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF
r 25 A. WELL, YES, I WAS BORN THERE. I WAS RAISED
r 26
27
THERE.
Q. IS YOUR BROTHER, JONATHAN, A MEMBER OF 38TH
r 28 STREET?
r
439
l
1
1 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF. WE WERE ALL RAISED RIGHT
2 THERE. l
3 Q. WAS HE A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET?
4 A. YES. l
Q. WHEN WAS HE A MEMBER?
5
6 A. WHEN HE WAS LITTLE.

l
7
8
Q.
A.
HOW OLD IS HE NOW?
HE'S 26.
l
9 Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HE'S NOT IN THE GANG l
10 ANYMORE?
11 A. WELL, HE LIVES AT MY HOUSE AND HE DOESN'T EVER l
12 COME OUT.
13 Q. HE'S ON PAROLE AS WELL, RIGHT?
l
14
15
A.
WHATSOEVER.
YES, HE IS ON PAROLE AND HE DOESN'T COME OUT
l
16 Q. NOW, WE TALKED LAST TIME, AND YOU'RE WEARING A l
17 DIFFERENT TOP TODAY, BUT YOU HAVE SHELL TATTOOS ON YOUR
18 CHEST; IS THAT CORRECT? l
19 A. YES, I DO.
20 Q. I SAW ON THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD YOU HAVE AN "SE" l
21 TATTOOED.'
22 A. YES, I DO.
l
23
24
Q. WHAT IS THE SE SIGNIFICANT OF?
THE COURT: WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR, MA'AM?
l
25 THE WITNESS: SOUTHEAST. l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. IS THAT SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO? l
28 A. UH-HUH.
l
1
r 440
r 1 Q. YES OR NO?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. WHAT ARE THE SHELLS ON YOUR CHEST
REPRESENTATIVE OF?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I LIKE THE OCEAN.
DO YOU LIVE NEAR THE OCEAN?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
WHERE DO YOU LIVE? I DON'T NEED THE ADDRESS.
r 9
10
A.
Q.
WELL, I DO.
CURRENTLY.
I LIVE RIGHT BY J STREET.
YOU FORMERLY LIVED IN SHELLTOWN.
r 11 A. OH, THAT WAS LIKE 10, 12 YEARS AGO. AND THESE
r 12
13
SHELLS, I JUST GOT THEM.
Q. 10, 12 YEARS AGO WAS WHEN YOUR BROTHER WAS
r 14
15
SUPPOSEDLY ACTIVE IN SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
A. YEAH. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
THAT'S WHY YOU WERE LIVING IN SHELLTOWN?
MY MOM LIVED THERE.
r 18 Q. YOU LIVED THERE AS WELL?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS YOUR BROTHER, EDWIN QUINTANILLA, A MEMBER
r 21
22
OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
A. NO, HE WAS NOT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT IS JONATHAN'S NICKNAME?
CROOKS.
r 25 Q. WHAT WAS EDWIN'S NICKNAME?
r
26 A. GORDO.
27 Q. YOU NEVER HEARD HIM CALLED LIL CROOKS?
r 28 A. NO. THEY'RE GOING BASED ON THAT BECAUSE OF MY
r
441
l
1
1 BROTHER, JONATHAN QUINTANILLA, AND THAT IS REALLY
2 DISRESPECTFUL. l
3 Q. YOU'VE SEEN JONATHAN QUINTANILLA'S MYSPACE
4 PAGE, THOUGH, CORRECT? l
A. NO.
5
6 Q. YOU HAVEN'T SEEN YOUR OWN BROTHER'S MYSPACE

l
7
8
PAGE?
A. NO, BECAUSE ANYBODY COULD CREATE ANY PAGE.
l
9 THE COURT: THE QUESTION WAS: HAVE YOU SEEN l
10 IT, MA'AM?
11 THE WITNESS: NO, I HAVEN'T. l
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
13 BY MR. TROCHA: l
14
15
Q. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN ANY MEMORIALS TO LIL CROOKS
ON YOUR BROTHER'S MYSPACE PAGE?
l
16 A. NO. I DON'T HAVE A COMPUTER. I DON'T OWN A
l
17 COMPUTER.
18 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO WHAT HAPPENED WITH l
19 EDWIN QUINTANILLA.
20 HOW DID EDWIN QUINTANILLA GET TO SHELLTOWN ON l
21 THE DAY HE WAS SHOT?
22 A. I DROVE -- WE HAD DROVE DOWN TO THE CEMETERY.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS EDWIN LIVING AT THE TIME?
WITH ME AND MY MOM.
l
25 Q. AND WHAT PART OF TOWN WERE YOU LIVING IN AT THE l
26 TIME?
27 A. CHULA VISTA. l
28 Q. WHY DID YOU TAKE EDWIN WITH YOU TO SHELLTOWN
l
l
r 442
r 1
r
THAT DAY?
2 A. THE CEMETERY IS ON IMPERIAL AVENUE.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
THIS WOULD BE THE MOUNT HOPE CEMETERY?
NO. GREENWOOD CEMETERY.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHICH IS RIGHT NEXT TO MOUNT HOPE?
I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE OTHER NAME OF THE
r 7
8
CEMETERY.
Q. IF WE'RE LOOKING AT --
r 9 A. IT'S RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET FROM HOME DEPOT.
r 10
11
12
Q.
IMPERIAL.
OKAY. OFF IMPERIAL, BETWEEN MARKET AND
SO IF WE WERE TO TAKE 40TH AND CONTINUE GOING
THIS WAY, WE WOULD EVENTUALLY RUN INTO THE CEMETERY.

r 13 A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY WERE YOU GOING TO THE CEMETERY?
I HAVE ANOTHER BROTHER WHO PASSED AWAY.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WERE YOU TAKING EDWIN TO THE CEMETERY?
YEAH. AND I ALSO HAD MY ONE-YEAR-OLD SON.
r 18
19
Q.
A.
DID EDWIN GO WITH YOU TO THE CEMETERY?
YES, HE DID.
r 20 Q. IS THE CEMETERY ANYWHERE NEAR TEAK STREET?
r 21
22
A. IT'S LIKE ON THE WAY BACK.
AROUND THERE.
IT'S SOMEWHERE
IT'S KIND OF A COUPLE OF BLOCKS DOWN.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHEN DID YOU GO TO TEAK STREET?
WHEN WE CAME BACK.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
SO AFTER VISITING THE CEMETERY?
YEAH.
r 27 Q. WHERE DID YOU STOP ON TEAK STREET?
28 A. AT SOME KID NAME HEX'S HOUSE.

r
r
443
1
l
1 Q. WHO'S HEX?
2 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW NONE OF THEM. l
3 Q. IS THAT H-E-X?
4 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW THE KID. l
AND THAT'S TEAK AND 39TH, CORRECT?
5
6
Q.
A. YES. IT'S ON OCEAN VIEW.
l
7
8 HIM?
Q. DID YOU DROP EDWIN OFF OR DID YOU GET OUT WITH
l
9 A. I WENT AND GOT OFF WITH HIM, BUT THEN I HAD TO l
10 GO PICK UP ONE OF MY FRIENDS. LIKE I KEPT GOING AND
11 COMING BACK. l
12 Q. WHEN YOU DROPPED HIM OFF THE FIRST TIME, WHO
13 ELSE WAS AT HEX'S HOUSE? 1
14
15
A. I SEEN -- I DON'T KNOW NONE OF THE LITTLE BOYS.
THERE WAS LIKE TWO, THREE OTHER KIDS THERE, BUT I DON'T
l
16
17
KNOW WHO THEY ARE.
Q.
l
WHEN YOU SAY "KIDS," HOW OLD ARE WE TALKING?
18 A. PROBABLY LIKE 17, 16. l
19 Q. SO AROUND THE SAME AGE AS EDWIN?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. YOU KNOW FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, DON'T YOU?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHERE IS HE IN COURT?
HE'S RIGHT HERE.
l
25 Q. IS HE THE GENTLEMAN IN THE BLACK SUIT AND WHITE l
26 SHIRT TO MY FAR RIGHT, YOUR LEFT?
27 A. YES. l
28 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, CAN THE RECORD REFLECT
l
l
r 444
r 1 THE WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT?
r 2 THE COURT: YES.
r 3
4
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
HE -- I'VE KNOWN HIM SINCE I WAS LITTLE.
YOU DON'T CALL HIM MR. DOMINGUEZ, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT DO YOU CALL HIM?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
CHUNKY.
DO YOU EVER CALL HIM SPEEDY?

r 11 A. NO.
12 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD ANYONE CALL HIM SPEEDY?

r 13 A. NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
IS MR. DOMINGUEZ A FRIEND OF YOURS?
YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
HOW GOOD A FRIEND?
HE'S LIKE MY FAMILY.
r 18 Q. YOU CONSIDER HIM TO BE A BROTHER OF YOURS,
r 19
20
CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. YOU ACTUALLY TESTIFIED TO THAT LAST TIME AT THE
LAST HEARING, THAT YOU CONSIDERED MR. DOMINGUEZ TO BE A
r 23
24
BROTHER TO YOU.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
r 25
26
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
DID YOU SAY THAT, MA'AM?
r 28 ///
r
445
l
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. IS THAT TRUE TODAY? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. YOU CONSIDER HIM A BROTHER JUST LIKE JONATHAN l
5
6
IS A BROTHER OF YOURS, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. WHEN YOU DROPPED EDWIN OFF AT THE HOUSE ON
TEAK, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS THERE, CORRECT?
1
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. WHAT WAS HE DOING THERE?
11 A. I TOLD YOU THE LAST TIME AT THE LAST TRIAL THAT l
12 I HAD CALLED HIM.
13 Q. AND HE WAS GOING TO MEET YOU AT THIS PERSON
l
14
15
HEX'S HOUSE?
A. YEAH, BECAUSE I WAS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH MY
1
16 HUSBAND. AND I DIDN'T KNOW NONE OF THE KIDS THERE, AND
l
17 I HAD CALLED HIM, AND THAT'S WHY HE HAD SHOWED UP.
18 Q. SO WHEN YOU CALLED HIM, YOU TOLD HIM TO MEET l
19 YOU AT HEX'S HOUSE?
20 A. NO. I TOLD HIM I WAS IN BETWEEN OCEAN VIEW. l
21 Q. OCEAN VIEW AND --
22 A. TEAK.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YOU CALLED HIM AT THE CEMETERY?
NO.
l
25 Q. DID YOU CALL HIM FROM YOUR HOUSE? l
26 A. I CALLED HIM FROM MY CELL PHONE.
27 Q. WAS THIS AFTER YOU LEFT THE CEMETERY? l
28 A. YES.
1
1
r 446
r 1 Q. AND YOU TOLD HIM TO MEET YOU AT HEX'S HOUSE?
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q. WELL, YOU TESTIFIED A FEW MINUTES AGO YOU DON'T
KNOW WHO HEX IS.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I DON'T. I JUST KNOW IT WAS HEX'S HOUSE.
WHEN YOU TOLD MR. DOMINGUEZ TO MEET YOU AT
r 7
8
HEX'S HOUSE, HE SHOWED UP AT HEX'S HOUSE?
A. WELL, I TOLD HIM WHERE IT WAS AROUND.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
AND WAS HE THERE WHEN YOU DROPPED EDWIN OFF?
YES.
r 11 Q. so --
r 12
13
A. NO, BECAUSE I HAD LEFT AND CAME BACK, AND EDWIN
WAS ALREADY THERE.
r 14
15
Q. WHEN YOU DROPPED EDWIN OFF THE FIRST TIME, WAS
MR. DOMINGUEZ THERE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO. NO.
HOW LONG DID YOU -- DID YOU COME BACK, THEN, AT
r 18 SOME POINT?
r 19 A. YES.
20 Q. HOW LONG DID YOU WAIT UNTIL YOU CAME BACK?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
WHERE DID YOU
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THIS WAS TWO, ALMOST THREE, YEARS AGO.
WHERE DID YOU GO?
r 25
26
A. I WENT TO GO -- I WAS GOING TO GO MEET UP WITH
MY FRIEND.
r 27 Q. WHERE WERE YOU GOING TO MEET YOUR FRIEND?
r 28 A. AT THE LIQUOR STORE.
r
447
l
l
1 Q. WHICH ONE?
2 A. IT WAS ON -- THE LIQUOR STORE OVER THERE ON, l

3 LIKE, 38TH AND NATIONAL.
4 Q. SO ABOUT THREE TO FOUR BLOCKS AWAY FROM 39TH l

5
6
AND TEAK?
A. UH-HUH.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
YES?
YES.
l
9 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU WITH YOUR FRIEND AT THIS l
10 LIQUOR STORE?
11 A. WELL, THE FIRST TIME I WENT, SHE WASN'T THERE. l
12 WHEN I HAD LEFT THE FIRST TIME, SHE WASN'T THERE, SO I
13 WENT BACK, LIKE, LATER ON IN THE DAY.
l
14
15
Q. SO WHERE DID YOU GO WHEN YOUR FRIEND WASN'T AT
THE LIQUOR STORE?
l
16 A. I WENT BACK.
l
17 Q. TO 39TH AND TEAK?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ AT 39TH AND TEAK AT THAT
20 TIME? l
21 A. I STILL HADN'T CALLED HIM.
22 Q. YOU HADN'T CALLED HIM AT THIS POINT YET?
l
23 A. NO.
l
24
25
Q.
STILL THERE?
WHEN YOU WENT BACK, WAS YOUR BROTHER, EDWIN,
, j
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WERE THE TEENAGERS THAT YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER l
28 STILL THERE?
l
l
r 448
r 1 A. SOME OF THEM WERE STILL THERE.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
THEY WERE DRINKING, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A. YES. BECAUSE I WAS HAVING PROBLEMS, SO I JUST
KEPT COMING BACK AND FORTH, SO I WASN'T PAYING
r 7
8
ATTENTION.
Q.
I JUST
THEY WERE DRINKING BEERS IN THE FRONT OF HEX'S
r 9 HOUSE, CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
HOW LONG DID YOU STAY AT HEX'S HOUSE THIS
r 12
13
SECOND TIME?
A. NOT FOR LONG. I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE. I
r 14
15
WAS HAVING PROBLEMS.
Q.
I WAS NOT TRYING TO BE ANYWHERE.
THEN YOU STATED EARLIER THAT AFTER YOU WENT
r 16
17
BACK THE SECOND TIME, YOU WENT TO LOOK FOR YOUR FRIEND
AT A LIQUOR STORE AGAIN.
r 18 A. YEAH, BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE -- I WAS
r 19
20
SUPPOSED TO PICK HER UP AND THEN PICK UP MY LITTLE
BROTHER.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
AND YOU HAD YOUR CELL PHONE WITH YOU?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DID YOU CALL HER?
YES.
r 25 Q. DID SHE ANSWER?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
AFTER A COUPLE OF TIMES.
DID YOU MEET UP WITH HER?
r 28 A. WHEN I WENT TO THE LIQUOR STORE -- I WENT
r
449
1
l
1 AGAIN. LIKE, I WENT TWO, THREE TIMES. I NEVER MET UP
l
2
3
4
WITH HER.
WASN'T THERE.
I KEPT GOING TO THE LIQUOR STORE AND SHE
I EVENTUALLY TOLD HER TO MEET UP WITH ME.
THAT'S WHEN I HAD GONE BACK TO 39TH AND TEAK.

, )
5
6
Q. WHEN YOU WENT BACK THIS LAST TIME, WAS
MR. DOMINGUEZ THERE?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES, HE WAS.
SO HE WAS THERE THIS TIME?
l
9 A. YES. WELL, YEAH, WHEN I HAD CALLED HIM. l
10 Q. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR HIM TO GET THERE AFTER
11 YOU CALLED HIM? l

13 Q. FIVE MINUTES?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
TEN MINUTES?
l
l
17 Q. WERE YOU WAITING A LONG PERIOD OF TIME?
18 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I ACTUALLY BLOCKED ALL THAT l
19 OUT OF MY HEAD. IT'S SOMETHING THAT I DON'T WANT TO
20 REMEMBER. l
21
22
Q.
OTHERS?
WERE YOU DRINKING WITH YOUR BROTHER AND THE
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO, I WASN'T.
WHEN MR. DOMINGUEZ ARRIVED, THOUGH, HE WAS
l
25 DRINKING WITH THE YOUNGSTERS, CORRECT? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. NO? l
28 A. NO. I DIDN'T SEE HIM.
l
l
r 450
r 1 Q. HOW DID HE KNOW HOW TO GET TO HEX'S HOUSE? DID
r 2 YOU TELL HIM?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I TOLD YOU THAT I TOLD HIM.
NOW, AT THE TIME, MR. DOMINGUEZ WASN'T LIVING
r 5
6
IN SHELLTOWN, RIGHT?
A. NO.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
HE WAS LIVING IN EAST COUNTY, CORRECT?
YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
HE HAD A RECORDING STUDIO IN SPRING VALLEY.
I DON'T KNOW.
r 11 Q. YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO THAT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
HOW ABOUT HIS HOUSE IN EL CAJON?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO THAT EITHER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
YET, WHEN YOU CALLED WHEN YOU'RE IN SHELLTOWN,
r 18 HE WAS ABLE TO BE THERE WITHIN A FEW MINUTES.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
BUT HE SHOWED UP --
r 21
22
A.
Q.
HE SHOWED UP.
TO THIS PERSON HEX'S HOUSE, YES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE YOUR BROTHER WAS DRINKING, YES?
r 25 A. NO, I DON'T KNOW IF MY BROTHER WAS DRINKING.
r 26
27
Q. WELL, IF YOU'RE AT THE HOUSE AND YOUR BROTHER
IS AT THE HOUSE, DID YOU SEE EACH OTHER?
r 28 A. WELL, I KEPT COMING. I KEPT LEAVING.
r
451
1
l
1 Q. AND WHY AGAIN DID YOU CALL MR. DOMINGUEZ TO
2 MEET YOU AT THIS HOUSE? 1
3 A. BECAUSE I WAS HAVING PROBLEMS.
4 Q. DID HE SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS? l
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
5
6 ARGUMENTATIVE.
l
7
8
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SUSTAINED. WE CAN MOVE ON.
l
9 Q. WHAT PROBLEMS DID YOU TALK ABOUT? l
10 A. I TOLD YOU THAT I WAS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH MY
11 HUSBAND. l
12 Q. AND MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS GOING TO HELP YOU IN THIS
13 REGARD HOW? l
14
15
A. NO.
ANYBODY, LIKE
I WAS JUST IN AN AREA WHERE I DIDN'T KNOW
l
l
,
16 Q. IN SHELLTOWN?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AT HEX'S HOUSE? J
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASKED AND

20 ANSWERED. l
21 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER.
22 THE WITNESS: I THINK THAT WAS HEX'S HOUSE.
l
23
24
THAT'S WHAT THEY KEPT SAYING.
BY MR. TROCHA:
l
25 Q. HOW LONG WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ AT THIS HOUSE WITH l
26 YOU AND HEX?
27 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. l
28 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT AFTER MR. DOMINGUEZ SHOWED
l
l
r 452
r 1 UP?
r 2 A. I DON'T WANT TO REMEMBER.
r 3 THE COURT: MA'AM, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
4 THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T
r 5
6
REMEMBER. I DON'T WANT TO REMEMBER.
YEARS AND A HALF.
IT'S BEEN OVER TWO
I'M TRYING TO MOVE ON WITH MY LIFE.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
MA'AM, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
I LEFT. AND WHEN I CAME BACK, MY
r 9 BROTHER HAD GOTTEN SHOT.
r 10
11
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WHERE DID YOU GO?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHERE DID I GO?
WHERE DID YOU GO WHEN YOU LEFT HEX'S HOUSE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I HAD GONE TO TRY TO GO MEET UP WITH MY FRIEND.
AT THE LIQUOR STORE AGAIN, YES?
r 16
17
A. YES. AND I LEFT FOR LIKE FOUR MINUTES, LIKE
NOT EVEN FIVE MINUTES.
r 18 Q. AND WHEN YOU CAME BACK, YOU FOUND OUT YOUR
r 19
20
BROTHER WAS DEAD -- OR HAD BEEN SHOT -- I'M SORRY.
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU FIND OUT YOUR BROTHER WAS SHOT?
BECAUSE WHEN I GOT THERE, I HEARD A GUNSHOT.
r 23
24
AND I WAS ON MY WAY.
WANTED TO LEAVE.
I JUST WANTED TO LEAVE ALREADY.
AND I SEEN -- I JUST HEARD THE

I
r 25 GUNSHOT.
r
26 Q. WHEN YOU DROVE BACK, DID YOU SEE ANYONE THAT
27 WITNESSED THE SHOOTING?
r 28 A. NO.
r
453
l
1 Q. DID YOU SEE YOUR BROTHER, EDWIN?
l
2 A. NO. I JUST HEARD EVERYBODY YELLING. l
3 Q. DID YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ?
4 A. WHEN I PASSED BY TO THE CORNER, I SEEN HIM l
5 STANDING, AND HE WAS RIGHT -- LIKE RIGHT HERE. AND I
6 PASSED BY HIM, AND WHEN I GOT TO THE CORNER, I HEARD THE
l
7
8
GUNSHOT.
Q. THE CORNER OF WHAT?
l
10
11
Q.
A.
WERE YOU ON OCEAN VIEW?
I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T KNOW THE STREET. I
,
1
12 DON'T REMEMBER.
13 Q. WHAT WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ DOING WHEN YOU SAW HIM? l
14
15
A.
Q.
HE WAS STANDING.
WHAT WAS HE DOING?
l
16 A. STANDING.
l
17 Q. WAS HE TALKING WITH ANYONE?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. WAS HE WITH YOUR BROTHER?
20 A. NO. l
22 A. I GOT MY BROTHER IN THE CAR.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YOU GOT YOUR BROTHER IN THE CAR BY YOURSELF?
I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T
1
25 WANT TO REMEMBER. l
26 Q. DO YOU RECALL GIVING THE POLICE A STATEMENT TWO
27 DAYS AFTER THIS INCIDENT? l
28 A. YEAH, I REMEMBER I HAD TO GO TALK TO THE
l
,
r 454
r 1 POLICE.
r 2 Q. WOULD IT BE SAFE TO SAY THAT YOUR MEMORY WAS

3 MUCH BETTER TWO DAYS AFTER THIS INCIDENT THAN RIGHT NOW?
r 4 A. MY MEMORY IS MUCH BETTER NOW. YES, IT WAS.
r 5
6
WHEN I WENT TO GO TALK TO THEM, I HADN'T SLEPT, AND I
HAD TAKEN A LOT OF VICODIN AND I WAS JUST -- IT'S TAKEN
r 7
8
ME A LONG TIME FOR ME TO GET OVER THAT.
IMAGINE WHAT IT WAS TWO DAYS AFTER THAT?
SO CAN YOU JUST
r 9
10
Q. DID I MISUNDERSTAND YOU SAYING YOUR MEMORY IS
BETTER NOW, OR WAS IT BETTER BACK THEN?
r 11 A. I'M BETTER NOW.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOUR MEMORY, THOUGH.
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
YOUR MEMORY IS BETTER NOW?
YES.
r 16
17 THE
Q. BUT YOU'VE TOLD US YOU CAN'T REMEMBER ALL
r 18
19
A. MY MEMORY IS BETTER NOW OF WHAT I'M LIVING NOW,
NOT WHAT I BLOCKED OUT OF MY HEAD. I CAN NEVER MOVE ON?
r 20 AM I ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO REMEMBER THAT DAY?
r 21
22
Q. LET'S GET BACK TO IT FOR PURPOSES OF THIS CASE.
WHEN YOU GOT BACK AND YOU SAID EDWIN WAS -- YOU
r 23
24
PUT EDWIN IN YOUR CAR, WHAT KIND OF CAR WERE YOU
DRIVING?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
A WINDSTAR.
MINIVAN?
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. DID ANYBODY HELP YOU PUT EDWIN INTO YOUR CAR?
r
455
l
l
1 A. YES, THEY DID.
2 Q. WHO? l
3 A. IT WAS CHUNKY.
4 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE AROUND HIM AT THE TIME?
l
7
8
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I REMEMBER SEEING WE WERE
ACROSS THE STREET FROM A CHURCH.
l
9 Q. WAS EDWIN STILL ALIVE AT THE TIME? l
10 A. I DON'T KNOW.
11 Q. DO YOU RECALL TELLING THE POLICE THAT YOU l
12 WANTED TO TAKE EDWIN TO THE HOSPITAL?
13 A. YEAH. l
14
15
Q. YOU ALSO RECALL TELLING THE POLICE THAT YOU
WANTED TO CALL 911 FOR EDWIN?
l
16 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT I WAS SAYING. DO YOU
l
17 THINK I COULD REMEMBER SOMETHING THAT I WAS SAYING?
18 Q. DO YOU RECALL TELLING THE POLICE THAT l
19 MR. DOMINGUEZ TOLD YOU NOT TO CALL 911 AND INSTEAD
20 SOMEBODY GAVE YOU DIRECTIONS TO A HOSPITAL? l
21 A. OF COURSE.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
l
23
24
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
I'M SORRY?
ARE WE SUPPOSED TO WAIT FOR THE
l
25 POLICE TO GET -- FOR THE AMBULANCE TO GET THERE? l
26 THE COURT: YOUR OBJECTION?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HEARSAY. l
l
1
r 456
r 1 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 2
3
Q. SO INSTEAD OF CALLING 911, YOU JUST DROVE TO A
HOSPITAL WHERE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHERE IT WAS?
r 4 A. THEY TOLD ME TO GET OFF ON UNIVERSITY TO
r 5
6
FIND -- AND I WAS GOING TO FIND MERCY.
DID THAT.
AND I'M GLAD I
r 7
8
Q.
A.
BUT YOU NEVER MADE IT TO A HOSPITAL, CORRECT?
NO. I WAVED DOWN A POLICE OFFICER.
r 9 Q. WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

10 A. BECAUSE I HAVE MY BROTHER IN THE CAR. I WASN'T
r 11 GOING TO WAIT -- DRIVE. I HAVE MY ONE-YEAR-OLD KID IN
12 THE CAR AND I'M DRIVING REALLY FAST, SO THE FIRST COP I
r 13 SEEN, I HAD STOPPED HIM.
r 14
15
Q. DIDN'T YOU ALSO MAKE A REMARK TO THE POLICE
THAT IF YOU HAD CALLED 911, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE
r 16
17
QUICKER THAN IF YOU WOULD HAVE CONTACTED THE POLICE
YOURSELF?
r 18
19
A. NO, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE.
THE COURT:
I WAS PROBABLY JUST --
THE QUESTION IS, DID YOU SAY THAT,
r 20
r 21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES, I PROBABLY DID.
LISTEN TO THE QUESTION AND THEN
r 23
24
ANSWER. DID YOU SAY THAT?
THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. SO THE REASON YOU DIDN'T CALL 911 IS BECAUSE
r 27 MR. DOMINGUEZ TOLD YOU NOT TO?
r 28 A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
r
457
1
l
1 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER MR. DOMINGUEZ MAKING SEVERAL
2 STATEMENTS INVOLVING YOUNGSTERS THAT WERE PRESENT FOR 1
3 THE SHOOTING AS WELL?
4 A. I REMEMBER THAT THERE WAS OTHER KIDS. WHEN I l
5 PASSED THE CORNER, THERE WAS -- I REMEMBER SEEING ONE
6 KID, AND THAT WAS THE KID THAT THEY SAID HIS NAME WAS
l
7
8
HEX, I REMEMBER.
GUY HAS A GUN.
AND HE WAS RUNNING, SAYING THAT "THE
THE GUY" WHEN HE WAS RUNNING, HE WAS
l
9 SAYING, "THE GUY HAS A GUN. THE GUY HAS A GUN." l
10 Q. YOU WEREN'T ACTUALLY PRESENT WHEN EDWIN WAS
11 SHOT, CORRECT? l
12 A. NO, I WASN'T. AS SOON AS I GOT TO THE CORNER,
l
13
14
15
THERE WAS A -- I WAS PROBABLY LIKE 10 FEET AWAY FROM
WHEN I GOT TO THE CORNER.
Q. SO ALL OF THE FACTS INVOLVING THIS SHOOTING
,
16 CAME DIRECTLY FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ?
l
17 A. NO, BECAUSE MR. DOMINGUEZ WASN'T EVEN THERE.
18 Q. WELL, ACCORDING TO YOUR STATEMENT TO THE 1
19 POLICE, MR. DOMINGUEZ PROVIDED YOU WITH ALL OF THESE
20 FACTS, CORRECT? l
21 A. THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE.
22 Q. EXCEPT THE ONLY PERSON YOU REFERENCED WAS
l
23
24
MR. DOMINGUEZ; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. PROBABLY.
l
25 Q. SO EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT THE SHOOTING CAME 1
26 DIRECTLY FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ'S MOUTH?
28 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, AT THIS TIME I'D ASK
l
,
r 458
r 1 THE COURT'S PERMISSION TO PLAY THE PORTION OF THE
r 2 INTERVIEW THAT IS RELEVANT TO THIS PARTICULAR WITNESS.
r
3 THE COURT: YOU MAY. DO YOU HAVE IT
4 TRANSCRIBED?
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
I DO.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FROM TIME TO
r 7
8
TIME IN THIS TRIAL, WE MAY HEAR PORTIONS OF
ELECTRONICALLY RECORDED INTERVIEWS. WE HAVE A COUPLE OF
r 9 PROCEDURES THAT DEAL WITH THOSE.

10 FIRST, THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING, IN WHATEVER
r 11 MEDIUM, WILL BE MARKED AS AN EXHIBIT. NEXT, IT WILL
12 ALSO BE MARKED AS AN EXHIBIT, A TRANSCRIPT OF THE

r 13 RECORDING.
r 14
15
WHEN THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING IS PLAYED, THE
COURT REPORTER WILL NOT BE TRANSCRIBING. THE
r 16
17
TRANSCRIPTS ARE FOR YOU TO USE AS AN AID IN FOLLOWING
WHAT IS SAID ON THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING. IF THERE IS A
r 18
19
VARIANCE BETWEEN WHAT YOU HEAR ON THE RECORDING AND WHAT
YOU READ IN THE TRANSCRIPT, IT IS, OF COURSE, THE

r 20 RECORDING THAT IS THE EVIDENCE. THE TRANSCRIPT IS JUST
r 21
22
AN AID IN HELPING YOU FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE.
YOU SHOULD CONSIDER WHAT YOU HEAR RATHER THAN
r 23
24
WHAT YOU READ, IN THE EVENT OF A DISCREPANCY. IT IS
SOMETIMES FREQUENTLY DIFFICULT TO TRANSCRIBE AND HEAR
r 25
26
EVERY PORTION OF ELECTRONIC RECORDINGS.
NOW, MR. TROCHA, WHICH PORTION OF THIS DO YOU
r 27 PROPOSE TO PLAY AT THIS TIME?
r 28 MR. TROCHA: THE FULL INTERVIEW HAS ALREADY
r
459
,
1 BEEN REDACTED, AND WHAT HAS BEEN PASSED OUT TO THE COURT
l
2 AND WHAT WILL BE PLAYED IS THAT REDACTED PORTION. l
3 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. HAVE WE MARKED EXHIBITS
4 HERE? l
5 MR. TROCHA: IT IS GOING TO BE EXHIBIT 240.
6 THE COURT: THIS IS WHAT, THE ELECTRONIC

l
7
8
RECORDING?
MR. TROCHA: YES, YOUR HONOR.

l
9 THE COURT: AND WHAT IS THE TRANSCRIPT? l
10 MR. TROCHA: THE TRANSCRIPT HAS NOT BEEN
11 MARKED. WE CAN MARK THAT AS 240-A, IF THE COURT l

12 WISHES.
13 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WHAT IS THE MEDIUM ON l
14
15
WHICH THE RECORDING -- IS IT A CD?
MR. TROCHA: IT'S DVD/CD.
l
16 THE COURT: WE'LL CALL 240 A DVD/CD OF
l
17 INTERVIEW WITH MS. QUINTANILLA.
18 MR. TROCHA: AND, FOR THE RECORD, IT'S A CD l

19 THAT'S BOTH AUDIO AND VIDEO, AND WE HAVE THE VIDEO UP ON
l
20
21
22
THE TV.
THE COURT:
TRANSCRIPT THEREOF.
ALL RIGHT. AND 240-A WILL BE , J
23
24
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 240, DVD/CD INTERVIEW WITH
MS. QUINTANILLA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
25 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 240-A, TRANSCRIPT OF DVD/CD l
26 INTERVIEW WITH MS. QUINTANILLA, WAS MARKED FOR
27 IDENTIFICATION.) l
28 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA.
l
,
r 460
r 2
3
(AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.)
r
4 RECORD. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT WE HAVE HEARD
r 5
6
EXHIBIT 240 AS REFLECTED GENERALLY BY EXHIBIT 240-A.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THERE'S AN INSTRUCTION I
r 7
8
NEED TO GIVE YOU. IT APPLIES TO THE TESTIMONY OF
WITNESSES GENERALLY, AND IT CERTAINLY APPLIES WHEN YOU
r 9 HEAR A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OR A VERBATIM RECORDING OF AN

10 INTERVIEW. IT IS THIS:
r 11 QUESTIONS ASKED BY THE QUESTIONER ARE NOT
r 12
13
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE.
IT IS ONLY THE WITNESS'S ANSWERS THAT ARE
THE QUESTIONS ARE SIGNIFICANT ONLY IF THEY
r 14
15
HELPED YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE ANSWER.
IF THE ANSWER GIVEN BY THE WITNESS AGREES WITH
r 16
17
OR ADOPTS SOMETHING THAT'S SAID IN THE QUESTION, THEN
THAT'S FINE. BUT TO THE EXTENT THE QUESTION MIGHT HAVE
r 18 INFORMATION THAT DOES NOT COME FROM THE WITNESS OR IS
r 19
20
NOT VERIFIED BY THE WITNESS, THEN YOU MUST NOT CONSIDER
THAT INFORMATION IN THAT QUESTION AS AN ANSWER OR AS
r 21
22
EVIDENCE.
DO NOT ASSUME THAT SOMETHING IS TRUE JUST
r 23
24
BECAUSE A QUESTIONER ASKED A QUESTION THAT SUGGESTED IT
WAS TRUE; AGAIN, UNLESS THE WITNESS THEN CONFIRMED OR
r 25
26
ADOPTED THAT. AND PLEASE CONSIDER THAT, FOLLOW THOSE
RULES WHEN YOU EVALUATE THIS TESTIMONY, THIS EVIDENCE.
r 27 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
r
461
,
1
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. MS. QUINTANILLA, AFTER WE HEARD THAT INTERVIEW, l
3 IT'S CLEAR THAT EVERYTHING YOU TOLD THE POLICE, YOU SAID
4 CAME FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ, CORRECT? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ EXPRESSED THAT HE WAS
l
7
8
UPSET BECAUSE THE YOUNGSTERS WERE GOING TO LEAVE YOUR
BROTHER, EDWIN, LYING THERE AFTER THEY RAN AWAY.
l
9 A. WE WANTED TO FIND OUT WHO HAD KILLED MY l
10 BROTHER.
11 Q. AND THESE TWO RAN AWAY, LEAVING YOUR BROTHER TO l
12 DIE ON THE STREET.
13 A. THE ONLY PERSON I SEEN RUNNING WAS HEX.
l
14
15
Q. IN YOUR INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE, YOU SAID
MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ASSISTED BY TWO OTHERS IN PUTTING
l
16 EDWIN INTO YOUR CAR. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DID THAT HAPPEN? l
20 SPECULATION. l
22 WHO WERE THEY, MA'AM?
l
23
24
THE WITNESS: IT WAS SOME KID. I REMEMBER HE
HAD TO TALK TO SOME KID, AND IT WAS SOME, LIKE, REALLY
l
25 SKINNY, SHORT KID. NOW THAT I'M FINE, I KNOW -- LIKE, I l
26 REMEMBER, LIKE, THIS WHOLE THING. LIKE, I WAS JUST
27 LOST, JUST LIKE I SAID. I WAS UNDER SO -- l
28 THE COURT: WHO WERE THEY?
l
l
r 462
r 1 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW.
r 2 THE COURT: CONTINUE.
r 3
4
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WE ALSO HEARD ON THE TAPE THAT YOU WANTED TO
5 CALL THE POLICE BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN QUICKER FOR
r 6 THEM TO GET THERE AS OPPOSED TO DRIVING TO A HOSPITAL
r 7
8
OFF OF THE 15, CORRECT?
A. I THINK THAT WAS MY INSTINCT THING TO SAY, THAT
r 9 I WANTED TO, YES, TO CALL THE POLICE.

10 Q. AND, AGAIN, THE REASON YOU DIDN'T IS BECAUSE
r 11 MR. DOMINGUEZ TOLD YOU NOT TO.
r 12
13 EVIDENCE.
r 14
15
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER.
I DON'T REMEMBER. I'M GLAD I WAS
r 16
17
ABLE TO LEAVE. LIKE I
THING I COULD HAVE DONE.
THAT COULD HAVE BEEN THE BEST
r 18
19
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WE ALSO HEARD ON THE INTERVIEW THAT
r 20 MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ALREADY AT HEX'S HOUSE WHEN YOU
r 21
22
FIRST SHOWED UP THE FIRST TIME.
A. OH, NO. JUST LIKE I SAID, I WAS -- IT WAS --
r 23
24
HE SAID IT WAS LIKE 48 HOURS AFTER I HAD TALKED TO THEM.
I -- WHEN THEY RELEASED ME FROM THE SCENE, I GAVE MY
r 25
26
BROTHER TO -- WHEN I WAVED DOWN THE COPS, IT WAS AT
9:00 -- LIKE AROUND 9:00.
r 27 THEY DIDN'T RELEASE ME FROM WHERE I GAVE MY
r 28 BROTHER UP LIKE AT 7:00 IN THE MORNING. I HADN'T SLEPT,
r
463
,
~
1
1 AND I HAD TAKEN MORE THAN A BOTTLE OF VICODIN. AND, OF
2 COURSE, MY BROTHERS WERE IN JAIL AND HE WAS THE ONLY ONE l
3 I WAS TALKING TO, SO, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST LIKE -- IT'S
4 JUST LIKE YOU GUYS SAID THAT, "OH, YEAH, YOU'RE NOT l
5 GOING TO LEAVE ME WITHOUT FINDING WHO KILLED MY
6 BROTHER."
l
7
8
AND WHERE AM I IN ALL THIS?
PUTTING ME THROUGH ALL THIS.
YOU'RE LIKE
IT'S GOING ON THREE YEARS,
l
9 AND YOU'RE LIKE BRINGING ME THROUGH ALL THIS LIKE FOR
10 THIS CASE THAT'S ALREADY BEEN DISMISSED, AND I CAN'T
11 BELIEVE HOW YOU COULD DO THIS. l
12 THE COURT: MA'AM, STOP SPEAKING, PLEASE. TAKE
13 A MOMENT, COMPOSE YOURSELF. DO YOU NEED A RECESS? l
14
15
THE WITNESS:
WANT TO HURRY.
NO. I WANT TO HURRY. I JUST
l
16 THE COURT: OKAY. THEN LISTEN TO THE QUESTIONS
l
17 AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. YOU'RE UNDER OATH.
18 MR. TROCHA, QUESTION. l
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. WE AGAIN HEARD ON THE INTERVIEW MR. DOMINGUEZ l
21 WAS ALREADY AT THE HOUSE WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED. DID
22 YOU HEAR THAT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I HEARD THAT ON THE VIDEO.
AND YOU ALSO SAID ON THE VIDEO THAT WHEN YOU
l
25 ARRIVED THE FIRST TIME, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS DRINKING WITH l
26 THESE YOUNGSTERS, CORRECT?
27 A. YES, THAT'S WHAT I HEARD ON THE VIDEO. l
28 Q. WE NEVER HEARD IN THOSE 15 MINUTES OR 16
l
,
r 464
r 1 MINUTES ON THE INTERVIEW THAT YOU CALLED MR. DOMINGUEZ
r 2 AND HAD HIM MEET YOU AT HEX'S HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?

3 A. YES, THAT'S WHAT I HEARD ON THE VIDEO.
j
L 4 Q. WE ALSO HEARD THAT YOU WERE AWAY FROM THIS
r 5
6
HOUSE BETWEEN 30 AND 40 MINUTES BEFORE YOU CAME BACK AND
THIS EVENT WITH YOUR BROTHER HAPPENED.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
OH, NO.
DID YOU HEAR THAT ON THE INTERVIEW?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHY NOW WERE YOU DOWN IN SHELLTOWN AGAIN?
I HAD GONE TO THE CEMETERY.
r 12
13
Q.
CEMETERY?
WHY DIDN'T MR. DOMINGUEZ JUST MEET YOU AT THE
r 14
15
A. BECAUSE I WASN'T GOING TO
DON'T REMEMBER.
I DON'T KNOW.
I WASN'T GOING TO GO ANYWHERE ELSE.
I
WE
r 16
17
WERE GOING TO THE CEMETERY.
Q. WE ALSO HEARD IN THE INTERVIEW THAT IT SOUNDS
r 18 LIKE YOU AND MR. DOMINGUEZ KNEW EXACTLY WHO HEX IS,
19 CORRECT?
r 20 A. I HAD HEARD, YES. BY MY LITTLE BROTHER I HAD
r 21
22
HEARD THAT NAME.
Q. HIS NAME IS HECTOR, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW HIS NAME.
HE'S A 38TH STREET GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T KNOW HIM.
FINALLY, ON THE INTERVIEW WE HEARD THAT YOU
r 27 TALKED ABOUT YOUR BROTHER'S DEATH WITH YOUR BROTHER,
28 JONATHAN, WHO WAS IN PRISON AT THE TIME, CORRECT?
r
r
,
1 A. YES.
465
,
2 Q. WHEN DID HE GET OUT OF PRISON? 1
3 A. IN NOVEMBER, LIKE PROBABLY, LIKE, MONTHS AFTER,
4 A YEAR AFTER. I DON'T REMEMBER. I'M REALLY -- I DON'T l
5 REMEMBER. IT HAD PROBABLY BEEN OVER A YEAR, I THINK.
6 Q. AND IT SOUNDED LIKE YOU HAD ANOTHER BROTHER WHO
1
7 WAS STILL INCARCERATED AT THE TIME TOO.
l
8
9
A.
Q.
YES, HE IS.
SO AT THE TIME AFTER THIS INCIDENT IN SEPTEMBER
,
J
10 OF 2008, THE ONLY PERSON WHO WOULD BE CONSIDERED A
11 BROTHER OF YOURS THAT WAS OUT WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ, l
12 CORRECT?
13 A. WHEN THIS HAD HAPPENED, HE WAS THE ONLY ONE I l
14
15
HAD TO TALK TO.
Q. HE WAS THE ONLY ONE OUT OF CUSTODY.
1
16 A. YES.
l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY EXAMINE.
l
23
24
Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. QUINTANILLA.
MS. QUINTANILLA WE JUST WATCHED THAT VIDEO. IT
l
25 WAS ABOUT 20 MINUTES, RIGHT? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. GIVE OR TAKE FIVE MINUTES, MAYBE 25 OR SO. l
28 THAT HAPPENED -- THAT INTERVIEW HAPPENED ON
l
l
r 466
r 1 JULY 4, 2008, RIGHT?
r 2 A. YES.
3 Q. THAT WAS, WHAT, ABOUT THREE MONTHS BEFORE -- A

r 4 LITTLE MORE THAN THREE MONTHS BEFORE SEPTEMBER 13, 2008,
r 5
6
RIGHT?
A. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT.
r 7
8
Q. I'LL SLOW THE QUESTIONS DOWN, MS. QUINTANILLA.
THAT'S ABOUT THREE MONTHS PRIOR TO SEPTEMBER
r 9
10
13TH.
A. OH, YES.
r 11 Q. DURING THAT INTERVIEW, IT WAS WITHIN 48 HOURS
r
L
12 OF YOUR BROTHER, EDWIN, PASSING AWAY, RIGHT?
13 A. YES. IT HAD BEEN -- IT WAS PROBABLY LIKE A DAY
r 14
15
AND A HALF FOR ME AFTER, LIKE.
Q. FROM THE TIME THAT EDWIN PASSED AWAY AND THAT
r 16
17
INTERVIEW, HAD YOU SLEPT?
A. NOTHING. I DIDN'T SLEEP HARDLY FOR LIKE AFTER
r 18 A WEEK, AND THAT'S BECAUSE I KEPT -- PEOPLE KEPT SENDING
r 19
20
ME VICODINS, AND I -- THEY KEPT ON TRYING TO GIVE ME
MEDICATION.
r 21
22 SLEPT?
THE COURT: THE ANSWER WAS NO, YOU HAD NOT
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
NO.
OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 25
26
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
r 27 Q. WERE YOU STRESSED OUT?
28 A. YES.
r
r
l
1 Q. WERE YOU IN SHOCK?
467
,
2 A. YEAH. 1
3 Q. WERE YOU SUFFERING GRIEF?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. AS YOU LISTENED TO THE INTERVIEW, IS EVERYTHING
6 YOU SAID IN THAT INTERVIEW ACCURATE?
l
7
8
A. I WASN'T IN MY RIGHT STATE OF MIND. WHEN I GOT
HOME AT 7:00 IN THE MORNING WHEN THEY RELEASED ME, ONE
l
9 OF MY FRIENDS HAD ALREADY TAKEN ME A LOT OF VICODIN. I l
10 WAS GOING CRAZY.
l
11
12
13
Q. MS. QUINTANILLA, THANK YOU.
YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR BROTHER, EDWIN, ON
DIRECT, AND WE MENTIONED THAT HE WAS CALLED LIL CROOKS
, J
14
15
AT SOME POINT, RIGHT?
A. YEAH. THEY PEOPLE WERE SAYING THAT BECAUSE
l
16 OF MY OTHER BROTHER.
l
17 Q. NOW, WAS HE KNOWN -- WHEN HE WAS KNOWN AS LIL
18 CROOKS, THAT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER HE HAD PASSED AWAY, l
19 RIGHT?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. BEFORE HE WAS PASSED AWAY, WAS HE KNOWN AS LIL
22 CROOKS?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO. WE ALWAYS CALLED HIM GORDO.
IN FACT, YOUR MOM LIVED IN TIJUANA, DID SHE
l
25 NOT? l
26 A. YES. SHE STILL DOES.
27 Q. AND EDWIN SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH HER BEFORE l
28 HE PASSED AWAY, DIDN'T HE?
l
,
r 468
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. DID EDWIN SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN SHELLTOWN?

3 A. NEVER. THAT WAS HIS FIRST TIME DOWN THERE.
r 4 Q. SO HE --
A. PROBABLY HIS SECOND TIME, HIS SECOND TIME,
r 5
6 BECAUSE WHEN WE WENT DOWN THERE, HE KNEW THE PERSON'S
r 7
8
HOUSE. BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS THE SECOND TIME, BECAUSE I
HAD TOOK HIM DOWN THERE.
r 9
10
Q. OKAY. AND THEN WHEN YOU SHOWED UP ON JULY 2ND,
I BELIEVE IT WAS, AND THEN YOUR BROTHER PASSED AWAY
r 11 WHEN YOU SHOWED UP AND HE HAD BEEN SHOT, JOSE DOMINQUEZ
r 12
13
WAS THERE.
A.
FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ WAS THERE, RIGHT?
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
AND TWO OTHER PEOPLE WERE THERE, RIGHT?
YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AND THEY WERE YOUNG.
YES. WELL, I HAD SEEN -- THE ONLY ONE I HAD
r 18 SEEN, IT WAS HEX, AND HE WAS RUNNING UP THE HILL. WHEN

19 I GOT TO THE CORNER, I HEARD HIM YELLING, "THE GUY HAS A
r 20 GUN." AND THE OTHER GUY, WHEN I SEEN -- BECAUSE CHUNKY
r 21
22
WAS THE ONE THAT HELPED ME PUT HIM IN THE CAR.
WAS ANOTHER LITTLE SKINNY KID, REALLY SHORT.
THERE
r 23
24
Q. AND THEN THOSE PEOPLE WHO YOU JUST MENTIONED
HELPED PUT EDWIN IN YOUR CAR.
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
AND FLORENCIO HELPED AS WELL.
YES.
28 Q. AND ACCORDING TO WHAT MR. DOMINGUEZ TOLD YOU,
r
r
469
l
l
1 HE HAD LEARNED WHAT HAPPENED FROM WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AS
2 A BLACK GUY, RIGHT? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. HE SAID A BLACK GUY RAN OVER TO CHUNKY AT HEX'S l
5 HOUSE AND HAD TO TELL CHUNKY WHAT HAPPENED, RIGHT?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
RIGHT?
AND, AGAIN, CHUNKY IS FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ,
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. DURING THE INTERVIEW WITH THE DETECTIVES THAT
11 WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE MAIN l
12 TOPIC WAS TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO EDWIN?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH THEM, YOU WERE
TRYING TO ASSIST THEM IN FINDING WHO SHOT EDWIN.
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. ON DIRECT EXAMINATION, MR. TROCHA QUESTIONED
18 YOU ABOUT BEING GONE FOR 35, 40 MINUTES, CORRECT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. BUT IN THE TRANSCRIPT -- DIRECTING THE COURT l
AND COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO PAGE 3 OF THE TRANSCRIPT --
21
22 YOU STATE ON LINE 5, YOU WERE ONLY GONE ABOUT FIVE TO
l
23
24
SIX MINUTES, RIGHT?
A. YES. IT HAD JUST BEEN FROM LIKE ONE BLOCK TO
l
25 ANOTHER. l
26 Q. SO IT ACTUALLY WASN'T 30 OR 40 MINUTES.
27 A. NO. NO. l
28 Q. AT ONE POINT YOU TOLD THE DETECTIVES THAT
l
l
r 470
r 1 MR. DOMINGUEZ TOLD YOU, QUOTE -- AND THIS IS PAGE 13,
r 2 LINES 19 THROUGH 22 IN THE TRANSCRIPT -- I'LL GIVE
r
3 EVERYBODY A SECOND -- "I TOLD HIM, 'CHUNKY, QUOTE
4 PARENTHESES SIC, YOU'RE NOT TELLING ME SOMETHING.' AND
r 5
6
HE'S ALL LIKE, 'WHY DON'T YOU GO LOOK FOR THEM FOOLS
RIGHT NOW AND THEY'LL TELL YOU.'"
r 7
8 A.
DO YOU REMEMBER HE SAID THAT?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING IT IN THE VIDEO?
I THINK I HEARD IT.
r 11 Q. ACCORDING TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, THE TWO YOUNGSTERS
r 12
13
HAD WITNESSED WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO EDWIN, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND ACCORDING TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, THEY MIGHT BE
ABLE TO HELP FIND OUT WHO SHOT EDWIN.
[ 16 A. YES.
17 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
r 18 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
MOVE TO STRIKE.
STRICKEN. PLEASE DISREGARD, LADIES
r 21
22
AND GENTLEMEN, THE LAST QUESTION AND LAST ANSWER.
r 23
24
Q. THE POLICE WERE PRESSURING YOU TO GET THE NAMES
OF THE TWO YOUNGSTERS, RIGHT?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q. AND THE POLICE THOUGHT THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ MIGHT
KNOW THEIR NAMES.
r 28 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
r
471
1
l
1 THE WITNESS: YES.
2 THE COURT: OVERRULED. FROM THE TRANSCRIPT. l
3 OVERRULED.
5 Q. THE POLICE SPECIFICALLY SAID, ON PAGE 16, LINES
6 27 THROUGH 28 -- I'LL GIVE EVERYONE A SECOND.
1
l
,
7 ONE OF THE DETECTIVES SAID, "WHEN WE -- IT
8 WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE THOSE YOUNGSTERS IN HERE TO SAY
9 WE" -- AND THEN UNINTELLIGIBLE AFTER THAT. J
10 DID IT APPEAR TO YOU AS THOUGH THE DETECTIVES
11 WERE TRYING TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT HOW TO GET IN l
12 CONTACT WITH THESE YOUNGSTERS?
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q. AND WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY WANTED
TO TALK TO CHUNKY BECAUSE HE MIGHT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO
l
16 HIM?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT CHUNKY MIGHT l
19 BE ABLE TO PUT THE DETECTIVES IN TOUCH WITH THE TWO
20 YOUNGSTERS WHO WERE WITNESSES TO YOUR BROTHER'S MURDER? l
A. YES.
21
22 Q. DID MR. DOMINGUEZ EVER TELL YOU THAT HE WAS

l
23
24
GOING TO HURT SOMEBODY?
A. NO. WE JUST WANTED TO FIND -- ASK THE PEOPLE
l
25 WHO WERE AROUND THERE TO SEE WHO -- WHAT THE PERSON l
26 LOOKED LIKE WHO HAD KILLED MY BROTHER.
27 Q. DID MR. DOMINGUEZ EVER INDICATE TO YOU THAT HE l
28 WAS PISSED OFF AT THESE KIDS?
l
,
r 472
r 1 A. NO. WHY?
r 2 Q. WERE YOU PISSED OFF AT THESE KIDS?
r
3 A. I WAS MAD AT THE WORLD.
4 Q. YOU WERE MAD AT EVERYBODY?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DID MR. DOMINGUEZ, BEFORE OR AFTER THIS
[ 7 INTERVIEW, EVER DISCUSS WITH YOU THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO
8 AND HURT THESE LITTLE KIDS?
r 9 A. NO.
r 10
11
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
THANK YOU.
r 12
13
REDIRECT?
r 14
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 16
17
Q. WE DID HEAR ON THE INTERVIEW TAPE SEVERAL
TIMES, THOUGH, THAT YOU REFUSED TO CALL MR. DOMINGUEZ
r 18 WHILE THE POLICE WERE IN YOUR PRESENCE, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT THIS
r 21
22
INFORMATION, MS. QUINTANILLA.
A. HELP THEM FOR WHAT?
WHY DIDN'T YOU HELP THEM?
r 23
24
Q. WE JUST HEARD YOU TALK WITH THE DEFENSE
ATTORNEY, AND IT WAS CLEAR TO YOU THAT ALL THEY WANTED
r 25
26
WAS INFORMATION FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ TO HELP SOLVE YOUR
BROTHER'S MURDER.
r 27 A. IT WASN'T CLEAR TO ME, BECAUSE, LIKE I SAID, I
r 28 HAD NOT SLEPT AND I WAS UNDER A LOT OF MEDICATION.
r
473
l
l
1 Q. SO WHEN YOU SAID TO THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY IT
2 WAS CLEAR TO YOU THAT THE POLICE WERE JUST SEEKING l
3 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S ASSISTANCE, THAT'S INCORRECT.
4 A. NO. l
5 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU PULL OUT YOUR CELL PHONE IN THE
6 INTERVIEW AND CALL MR. DOMINGUEZ RIGHT THERE IF ALL THEY
l
7
8
WANTED TO DO WAS HELP?
A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO.
l
9 Q. WHY? l
10 A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO.
11 Q. DID YOU WANT IT CLEARED IF IT WAS OKAY WITH THE l
12 DEFENDANT BEFORE YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE?
13 A. I DON'T HAVE TO CLEAR NOTHING WITH NOBODY. l
14
15
Q. THIS IS A PERSON THAT TALKED YOU OUT OF CALLING
911 WHEN YOUR BROTHER WAS DYING IN YOUR CAR,
l
16 MS. QUINTANILLA.
l
17 A. AND I THANK HIM FOR THAT, BECAUSE I COULD HAVE
18 PROBABLY WAITED A LONG TIME RIGHT THERE. l
19 Q. YOU SAID THIS IS EITHER THE FIRST OR SECOND
20 TIME EDWIN WAS EVER IN SHELLTOWN. l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. YET HE KNEW WHERE HEX LIVED, CORRECT?
l
23
24
A. I THINK HE -- THIS WAS THE SECOND -- I'M SAYING
IT'S THE SECOND TIME, BECAUSE HE'S THE ONE WHO SHOWED ME
l
25 HOW TO GET THERE. AND HE HAD ONLY BEEN THERE ONE TIME l
26 BEFORE THAT, BECAUSE HE WOULD ONLY COME TO MY HOUSE.
l
27
28
AND I LIVED IN CHULA VISTA AT THE TIME AND MY MOM LIVED
IN TJ, SO HE WOULD NEVER GO -- HE WAS RAISED IN , !
l
r 474
r 1 SAN YSIDRO, SO HE WOULD NEVER GO FURTHER DOWN.
r 2 Q. YET THIS IS THE SECOND TIME, THE MOST, HE WAS
r 3
4
IN SHELLTOWN, AND HE'S OKAY WITH DRINKING WITH OTHER
PEOPLE AT SOMEONE'S HOUSE IN SHELLTOWN?
r 5
6 SPECULATION.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER.
I THINK HE KNEW SOME OF THE GUYS
r 9 THERE FROM WHEN WE USED TO LIVE THERE WHEN WE WERE
r 10 LITTLE.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q. THE SECOND TIME MR. DOMINGUEZ JUST HAPPENED TO
BE AT HEX'S HOUSE IN SHELLTOWN, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A. I TOLD YOU THAT I HAD CALLED HIM.
REASON FOR ME TO LIE.
THERE'S NO
LIKE I TOLD YOU, I HAD CALLED
r 16
17
HIM.
Q. MS. QUINTANILLA, THE TERM "YOUNGSTER," THAT'S
r 18 THE TERM FOR A TEENAGE GANG MEMBER, IS IT NOT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I CALL MY KIDS THAT.
YOU'VE NEVER HEARD A TERM "YOUNGSTERS" IN
r 21
22
REFERENCE TO GANGS?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q.
CORRECT?
AND IT REFERS TO A TEENAGE GANG MEMBER,
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q. THE LAST QUESTIONS I WANT TO ASK YOU WERE:
KEEP SAYING YOU WERE ON A LOT OF DRUGS DURING THIS
YOU
r 28 INTERVIEW. CAN YOU POINT TO A PART IN THE INTERVIEW
r
475
l
1
1 WHERE YOU HAD DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE POLICE
2 WERE ASKING YOU? l
3 A. YOU CAN LISTEN TO MY VOICE.
4 Q. YOU ANSWERED THEIR QUESTIONS CONSISTENTLY, 1
5 CORRECT?
6 A. I WAS GOING CRAZY. I COULD LOOK AT YOU AND
1
7
8
TELL YOU I TOOK MORE THAN 30 PILLS WITHIN A PERIOD OF A
DAY AND A HALF.
l
9 Q. AT WHAT POINT IN THE INTERVIEW CAN YOU POINT TO 1
10 US WHERE IT'S CLEAR THAT YOU WERE ON 30 PILLS OF
11 VICODIN? 1
12 A. I WOULDN'T BE LYING TO YOU. I HAD TO CARRY MY
13 BROTHER WITH A BULLET IN HIS FOREHEAD. DO YOU THINK I
l
14
15
WOULD LIE TO YOU?
JOB, BUT THIS IS NOT
I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE TRYING TO DO YOUR
I WOULDN'T LIE TO YOU. THERE'S
l
16 NO REASON FOR ME TO LIE TO YOU.
l
17 Q. SO ALL WE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE ON YOUR
18 CREDIBILITY IS YOUR IN-COURT TESTIMONY AND A TAPED l
19 INTERVIEW FROM TWO DAYS AFTER YOUR BROTHER'S MURDER.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. l
21 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT IS.
l
23
24
THE COURT: RECROSS?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING, YOUR HONOR. THANK
l
25 YOU. l
26 THE COURT: DO COUNSEL WANT THIS WITNESS
27 EXCUSED OR SUBJECT TO RECALL? l
28 MR. TROCHA: EXCUSED IS FINE, YOUR HONOR.
1
,
r 476
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES.
r 2
3
MA'AM, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT. YOU MAY
r 4 STEP DOWN. YOU ARE EXCUSED. PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT
r 5
6
WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO REGARDING THIS CASE WITH ANY OTHER
PERSON, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER.
r 7
8
THE PEOPLE AT THIS TIME CALL OFFICER SAMUEL
r 9 EULER.
r 12
13
r 14
15
HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
r 16
17
THE CLERK:
THE WITNESS STAND.
r 18 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.

19 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. HOW ARE
r 20 YOU?
r 21
22
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
WELL, THANK YOU.
r 23
24
THE WITNESS: SAMUEL EULER, E-U-L-E-R.
r
t 25 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
r 26
27
Ill
r 28
r
477
,
1 SAMUEL EULER,
l
2
3
4
DIRECT EXAMINATION
,
l
j
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER EULER.
l
7
8
A.
Q.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
I CAN TELL BY YOUR UNIFORM YOU'RE A SAN DIEGO
l
l
9
10
11
POLICE OFFICER.
A.
Q.
P.D.?
YES, I AM.
AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH THE SAN DIEGO
,
12
l
13
14
15
A.
Q.
A.
APPROXIMATELY FOUR YEARS.
WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT?
I'M CURRENTLY ASSIGNED TO SOUTHERN PATROL.
,
16 Q. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THAT ASSIGNMENT?
l
17 A. APPROXIMATELY FOUR YEARS.
18 Q. CAN YOU TELL THE JURY WHAT AREA OF SOUTHEAST l
19 PATROL COVERS.
20 A. SOUTHEAST COVERS FROM SPRING VALLEY TO THE 15 l
21 FREEWAY, AND FROM THE 94 FREEWAY DOWN TO NATIONAL CITY.
22 I PRIMARILY WORK THE WEST HALF OF THAT, WHICH WOULD BE
l
23
24
FROM EUCLID AVENUE TO THE 15, AND 94 DOWN TO NATIONAL
CITY.
l
25 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR DUTIES AS A PATROL 1
]
26 OFFICER IN THIS AREA?

27 A. RESPONDING TO RADIO CALLS, CONDUCTING TRAFFIC l
28 STOPS.
l
,
r 478
r 1 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A COMMUNITY WITHIN THIS
r 2
3
AREA KNOWN AS SHELLTOWN?
A. YES.
r 4 Q. GENERALLY WHERE IS SHELLTOWN WITHIN SOUTHEAST
r 5
6
SAN DIEGO?
A. GENERALLY IT'S SOUTH OF NATIONAL AVENUE DOWN TO
r 7
8
NATIONAL CITY, AND THEN FROM ROUGHLY THE 15 TO ABOUT
43RD STREET.
r 9 Q. HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO RESPOND TO CALLS IN
10 THIS NEIGHBORHOOD?
c 11 A. YES, I HAVE.
r 12
13
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE LOCATION IN THE
NEIGHBORHOOD KNOWN AS MOUNTAIN VIEW OR OCEAN VIEW PARK?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
HAVE YOU RESPONDED TO CALLS IN THIS PARK?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, I HAVE.
OVER THE YEARS, HOW MANY, WOULD YOU SAY?
r 18 A. I WOULD SAY DOZENS.
r 19
20
Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1. IT IS A OVERHEAD PHOTO WITH TWO
21 PHOTOGRAPHS ON IT.
r 22 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION DEPICTED IN
r 23
24
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1?
A. YES, I DO.
r 25 Q. WHAT LOCATION IS THAT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK.
GOING BACK TO SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, AROUND 9:26
r 28 IN THE EVENING, WERE YOU ON DUTY?
r
479
,
1 A. YES, I WAS.
l
2 Q. WHERE WERE YOU? l
3 A. I WAS RESPONDING TO A CALL, 4000 OCEAN VIEW AT
4 MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK. l
5 Q. WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THIS CALL?
6 A. THE CALL WAS -- IT WAS A RADIO CALL OF ABOUT 20
l
7
8
PEOPLE FIGHTING.
Q. WAS THIS IN OR NEAR THE PARK?
l
9 A. ACCORDING TO THE CALL, IT WAS IN THE PARK, l
10 YES.
l
11
12
13
Q. YOUR PATROL CAR, ARE YOU IN IT ALONE OR DO YOU
HAVE A PARTNER?
A. I WAS IN IT ALONE THAT NIGHT.
, J
14
15
Q. WAS THERE ANOTHER OFFICER, THOUGH, WITH YOU OR
IN YOUR VICINITY?
l
l
,
16 A. YES. OFFICER WEAVER WAS IN THE PATROL CAR BY
17 HIMSELF, AS WELL, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.
18 Q. HOW WERE YOU RESPONDING TO THIS CALL? WHAT
19 DIRECTION WERE YOU TAKING?
20 A. WE WERE DRIVING WESTBOUND ON OCEAN VIEW. l
21 Q. SO THAT WOULD BE THE SQUIGGLY ROAD GOING UP THE
22 MIDDLE OF THE PARK?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES, CORRECT.
AND YOU WERE COMING WEST, SO YOU WOULD BE
l
25 COMING DOWN ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1? l
26 A. YES, CORRECT, DOWN THAT PICTURE.
27 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AS YOU NEARED THE PARK? l
28 A. AS WE REACHED 40TH THERE, WHICH IS THE STREET
l
,
r 480
r 1 THAT'S RUNNING FROM THE LEFT TO THE RIGHT ON THAT
r 2 PICTURE THERE, THE TOP PICTURE, HEARD ABOUT FOUR TO FIVE
r 3
4
GUNSHOTS TO OUR NORTHEAST.
Q. AND WHERE WOULD THAT BE?
r 5
6
A. SO ON THAT PICTURE THAT WOULD BE TO THE LEFT OF
THE SQUIGGLY ROAD THERE AND ABOVE THE STRAIGHT ROAD.
r 7
8
Q. SO JUST TO POINT IT OUT, OCEAN VIEW WOULD BE
THIS ROAD, AND YOU WOULD BE DRIVING IN THIS DIRECTION,
r 9
10
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 11 Q. THIS IS THE INTERSECTION OF OCEAN VIEW AND
r 12
13
40TH?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. WERE YOU AT THE INTERSECTION WHEN YOU HEARD THE
GUNSHOTS NORTHEAST OF YOUR LOCATION?
r 16 A. YES.
r 17
18
Q. WOULD THAT BE IN THIS CUT-OUT AREA THAT'S BEEN
HIGHLIGHTED?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
WHAT DID YOU DO UPON HEARING THE GUNSHOTS?
r 21
22
A. ONCE WE HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, WE TURNED -- MADE A
RIGHT TURN ONTO 40TH THERE, AND THE NEXT STREET NORTH OF
r 23 OCEAN VIEW IS FRANKLIN. WE THEN TURNED RIGHT ONTO
24 FRANKLIN SO THAT WE COULD CHECK THAT AREA OF THE PARK.
r 25 WE WEREN'T SURE IF IT CAME FROM THE PARK ITSELF OR FROM
r 26
27
FRANKLIN, SO WE WERE CHECKING THAT AREA.
Q. NOW, OFFICER EULER, AS YOU MADE THAT RIGHT TURN
r 28 ONTO 40TH, DID YOU SEE ANY PEDESTRIANS ON THE ROADWAY?
r
,.,
!
481
l
1 A. I DID NOT.
Q. DID YOU SEE ANY VEHICLES DRIVING AWAY FROM THE l
,
2
3 PARK AT THE TIME?

4 A. NO. .1
5
6
Q.
TIME?
WHAT IS THE LIGHTING LIKE IN THAT AREA AT THIS
l
7
8
A. IT'S FAIRLY DARK.
SCATTERED ABOUT.
THERE'S SOME STREET LIGHTING
l
9 Q. IS IT PITCH-BLACK? l J
10 A. NOT PITCH-BLACK, NO.

11 Q. WHAT KIND OF VISIBILITY COULD YOU SEE? l
12 A. YOU CAN SEE UP TO THE CURVE ON 40TH, WHICH THEN ., )
13 TURNS ONTO IMPERIAL, WITH THE STREETLIGHTS. SO YOU CAN
14
15
SEE PEOPLE; YOU CAN SEE VEHICLES.
Q. IF YOU'RE AT 40TH AND OCEAN VIEW, COULD YOU SEE
l
16 ALL THE WAY UP TO FRANKLIN? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. NO PROBLEM? l
19 A. NO LIGHTING ISSUES, NO.
20 Q. SO AS YOU MADE THAT RIGHT TURN, YOU COULD SEE l
21
22
IF ANYBODY WAS ON THE ROAD OR RUNNING OR THINGS OF THAT
NATURE?
l
23 A. YES, I WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO.
l
24 Q. WAS THERE ANYONE ON THE SIDEWALK ON THE SAME
25 SIDE AS THE PARK? l
26 A. I DID NOT SEE ANYONE, NO.
27 Q. AS YOU'RE DRIVING NORTH ON 40TH, THIS KIND OF l
28 GOES UP ON A HILL, CORRECT?
l
1
r 482
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
SO IF WE'RE CUTTING IT ALONG THAT THIRD OF THE
PARK FROM THE SIDEWALK TO THAT WALKWAY WITHIN THE PARK,
rL 3
4 DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ON THAT PART OF THE PARK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO, I DID NOT.
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU GOT UP TO FRANKLIN?
r 7
8
A. ONCE WE TURNED ONTO FRANKLIN, I COULD SEE A
VEHICLE PARKED IN -- IT'S LIKE A DIRT ALLEY, THAT EAST
r 9 ALLEY THERE OF 40TH. IT WAS PARKED FACING NORTHBOUND
r 10
11
WITH ITS HEADLIGHTS ON.
Q. WOULD THAT BE THE DIRT ALLEY THAT SEPARATES THE
r 12
13
HOMES FROM THE PARK?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
SEE THIS?
HOW FAR DID YOU DRIVE DOWN FRANKLIN IN ORDER TO
r 16 A. WE DROVE DOWN TO WHERE THAT DIRT ALLEY
r 17
18
INTERSECTS FRANKLIN THERE.
TREE IN THAT PICTURE THERE.
THERE'S LIKE A LIGHT BROWN
r 19
20
Q. LET'S MOVE TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
WILL BE A LITTLE BIT EASIER.
MAYBE IT
r 21
22
CAN WE SEE THAT LOCATION IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2,
OFFICER EULER?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
THE LIGHT BROWN TREE, IS THAT THE ONE IN THE
r 25 FOREGROUND RIGHT ABOVE WHERE IT SAYS "FRANKLIN
r 26
27
AVENUE"?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 28 Q. IS THAT WHERE YOUR CAR WAS PARKED?
r
483
l
l
1 A. YES.
1
2
3
4
Q.
LOCATION?
A.
WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU PARKED YOUR CAR AT THAT
OFFICER WEAVER AND I BOTH EXITED OUR VEHICLES.

,J
5
6
WE MADE OUR WAY CAUTIOUSLY UP THE -- IT'S A SLIGHT HILL,
AS IT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE STARTED MAKING OUR WAY UP
l
7
8
THROUGH THE PARK TO SEE IF, YOU KNOW -- WHAT THE CAR WAS
THERE FOR OR IF IT WAS INVOLVED.
l
9 Q. USING LANDMARKS WE CAN SEE IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, l
10 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, WHERE IN THAT DIRT ALLEY WAS THE CAR
11 PARKED? l
12 A. IT WAS PARKED ALONG THAT BANK OF TREES THAT'S
13 ALL PUT TOGETHER THERE.
l
14
15
Q.
LOCATION?
WOULD THAT BE THIS CLUMP OF TREES IN THIS
l
16 A. YES. l
17 Q. BY THE PICNIC BENCHES?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. YOU SAID THE CAR WAS FACING NORTH, WHICH WOULD
20 BE FACING TOWARDS FRANKLIN? l
21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THE HEADLIGHTS WERE ON?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES, THEY WERE.
WHEN YOU EXITED YOUR CAR, DID YOU ARM YOURSELF?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHY?
27 A. WELL, LIKE I SAID, I HEARD GUNSHOTS. DIDN'T l
28 KNOW WHO WAS SHOOTING OR WHY SOMEONE WAS SHOOTING, SO TO
l
1
r 484
r 1 PROTECT MYSELF AND OTHER PEOPLE.

r 2 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR PRIMARY FOCUS AS YOU GOT TO THAT
3 LOCATION AND EXITED YOUR CAR?
r 4 A. AT THAT POINT IT WAS TO FIND ANYONE -- ANYONE
r 5
6
THAT WAS IN THE PARK, EITHER BE IT A VICTIM OR A
POSSIBLE SUSPECT, OBVIOUSLY VICTIM BEING PRIORITY.
r 7
8
Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE LOCATION, DID YOU SEE ANY
FOOT TRAFFIC IN THE PARK, ON THE STREET, OR ANYWHERE
r 9 ELSE IN THAT LOCATION?

10 A. YES. AS WE STARTED MAKING OUR WAY UP THE
r 11 LITTLE HILL THERE OF THE PARK, I SAW WHAT I COULD TELL
r 12
13
WAS A HISPANIC MALE WITH DARK HAIR, AND AN OVERSIZED
DARK BLUE SHIRT, RUNNING WESTBOUND THROUGH THE PARK
r 14
15
TOWARD THAT PATH.
Q. TOWARDS THE PATH?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, CORRECT.
WHERE DID -- DID YOU AT ANY TIME LOSE SIGHT OF
r 18 HIM?
19 A. I LOST SIGHT OF HIM. HE RAN TOWARD THE PATH
r 20 AND THEN RAN SOUTH ALONG THE PATH, AND AT THAT POINT I
r 21
22
LOST SIGHT OF HIM AS HE MADE IT PAST THAT GROUP OF TREES
THERE.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE YOU DOING AT THE TIME?
LIKE I SAID, MYSELF AND OFFICER WEAVER, WE MADE
r 25 OUR WAY UP THROUGH THE PARK, SCANNING THE PARK FOR OTHER
26 PEOPLE. THE CALL REPORTED 20, SO WE WERE LOOKING FOR
r 27 OTHER PEOPLE, AS WELL, AS WE MADE OUR WAY UP THAT
r 28 PARK.
r
485
1
~
l
i
1 Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY HOW FAST YOU

2 WERE MOVING IN THE PARK.
3 A. I WOULD SAY A WALK WOULD BE AN ACCURATE SPEED.
4
5
Q.
A.
WHY DIDN'T YOU SPRINT INTO THE PARK?
THE UNKNOWN. WITH THE HEADLIGHTS OF THAT , j
6 VEHICLE POINTING AT US, IT OBSTRUCTED OUR VIEW FROM THAT
7
8
COMPLETE OF THE ALLEY. LIKE I SAID, I LOST SIGHT OF
THAT PERSON AND I COULDN'T TELL IF THERE WAS ANYONE PAST
l
9 THE VEHICLE, COULDN'T TELL IF THERE WAS ANYONE MAYBE
10 DOWN THE HILL ON THE OTHER SIDE, SO FOR SAFETY REASONS,
11 FOR CAUTION, WE MOVED SLOWER THAN, SAY, A SPRINT. 1
12 Q. DID YOU AND OFFICER WEAVER MOVE TOGETHER?
13 A. YES, WE DID.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW CLOSE WERE YOU TOGETHER?
WITHIN FIVE FEET OF EACH OTHER.
l
16 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? l
17 A. AS WE MADE OUR WAY UP THAT HILL, I NOTICED A
18 MALE LAYING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK RIGHT WHERE THE l
19 RED CIRCLE IS ON THAT PICTURE.
20 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT? l
21
22 OUT
A. I MADE MY WAY TO THAT PERSON, WHO WE FOUND
HE TOLD ME HIS NAME WAS MOISES LOPEZ. I MADE MY
l
23
24
WAY OVER TO LOPEZ, AND OFFICER WEAVER CONDUCTED A SAFETY
CHECK OF THAT VEHICLE THAT WAS STOPPED IN THE ALLEY,
l
25 MADE SURE THERE WAS NO ONE IN THERE THAT NEEDED HELP OR l
26 NO SUSPECTS IN THERE.
27 Q. WHEN YOU MADE CONTACT WITH MR. LOPEZ, WOULD YOU l
28 DESCRIBE HIS PHYSICAL CONDITION FOR THE JURY.
l
l
r 486
r 1 A. HE WAS LAYING ON HIS BACK, KIND OF ROLLING SIDE

r 2 TO SIDE. I COULD SEE HE WAS BREATHING, BUT IT WAS
r 3
4
LABORED BREATHING. I NOTICED A COUPLE MARKS IN THE BACK
OF HIS HEAD, LOOKED LIKE FROM BLUNT FORCE, FROM BEING
r 5
6
HIT WITH SOMETHING HARD.
HE WAS BLEEDING FROM HIS EARS, FROM HIS NOSE;
r 7
8
HAD BLOOD IN HIS MOUTH. I THEN NOTICED HE HAD BLOOD
COVERING HIS PANTS FROM HIS WAIST DOWN TO ABOUT HIS
r 9 KNEES, AND HE HAD SOME MORE SPATTERED BLOOD ON HIS SHIRT
r
10 AS WELL.
11 Q. WHAT WAS HIS -- OTHER THAN HIS PHYSICAL
r 12
13
CONDITION, DID HE APPEAR TO BE IN ANY PAIN?
A. HE WAS. HE WAS GROANING AS HE WAS ROLLING BACK
r 14
15
AND FORTH.
BREATHING AS WELL.
AND, LIKE I SAID, HE HAD SOME LABORED
r 16
17
Q. YOU SAID AT SOME POINT YOU WERE ABLE TO GET HIS
NAME FROM HIM.
r 18 A. YES. AS I STOOD NEXT TO HIM, I WAS TRYING TO
r 19
20
ASK HIM FOR HIS NAME, WHICH HE GAVE ME. I ASKED FOR HIS
BIRTHDAY, WHICH HE GAVE ME, AND WHERE HE LIVED, WHICH HE
r 21
22
TOLD ME 38TH STREET. I THEN WAS ASKING HIM WHAT HAD
HAPPENED OR WHO HAD ASSAULTED HIM, AND HE DID NOT
r 23
24
ANSWER.
Q. COULD YOU TELL US EXACTLY, IN MORE DETAIL, HOW
r 25 THIS CAME ABOUT. I MEAN, DID YOU SAY, "WHAT'S YOUR
r 26
27
NAME," AND HE RESPONDED IMMEDIATELY?
A. NO. I HAD TO ASK HIM SEVERAL TIMES WITH EACH
r 28 QUESTION. I ASKED HIM SEVERAL TIMES WHAT HIS NAME WAS
r
487
1
l
1 BEFORE HE ANSWERED ME. THE WHOLE TIME HE WAS ROLLING
~
I
2 BACK AND FORTH, SIDE TO SIDE. AND SAME THING WITH HIS I
J
3 BIRTHDAY AND WHERE HE LIVED. AND THEN AGAIN WITH WHAT

4 HAD HAPPENED, I ASKED HIM SEVERAL TIMES, BUT HE NEVER l
5
6
ANSWERED.
Q. DID IT APPEAR TO BE DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO ANSWER
1
7 YOUR QUESTIONS?
8 A. YES. AS HE ANSWERED, IT WAS VERY LABORED
~
9 SPEECH AND IT WAS COVERED AND MUDDLED BY GROANING. J
10 Q. DID HE APPEAR TO HAVE HIS WITS ABOUT HIM AT ALL
11 OR WAS HE DISORIENTED?
12 A. NO, HE SEEMED VERY DISORIENTED.
13 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN SOMEONE SUFFER A GUNSHOT WOUND
l
14
15
PRIOR TO THIS NIGHT?
A. YES.
1
16 Q. HOW MANY TIMES? l
17 A. I WOULD SAY AT LEAST A DOZEN.
18 Q. HOW MANY IN TOTAL FOR YOUR CAREER? l
19 A. I WOULD SAY SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF
20 30. l
21
22
Q. DID YOU SEE ANY SIGNS THAT MR. LOPEZ HAD
SUFFERED A GUNSHOT WOUND?
l
23
24
A.
SHIRT LIFTED.
YES. AS HE WAS ROLLING BACK AND FORTH, HIS
I COULD SEE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HIS
l
25 TORSO ABOUT MIDWAY UP THAT THERE WAS A SMALL CALIBER l
26 HOLE WHAT APPEARED TO BE A SMALL CALIBER HOLE, AND
27 THEN ON THE LEFT SIDE ANOTHER OR MATCHING SMALL CALIBER l
28 HOLE.
l
,
r 488
r
r 1
2
Q. NOW, IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU WERE DOING WITH
MR. LOPEZ, DID YOU ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE FIRST AID FOR
r 3
4
HIM?
A. WELL, SINCE HE WAS BREATHING, I COULD TELL HE
r 5
6
WAS BREATHING, HE WASN'T BLEEDING FROM THE WOUNDS, THERE
REALLY WASN'T MUCH THAT I COULD DO, BECAUSE AS FAR AS MY
r 7
8
ABILITIES FOR RENDERING FIRST AID, IT'S TO MAKE SURE
HE'S BREATHING, MAKE SURE HE'S GOT A PULSE, WHICH HE
r 9 DID, AS HE WAS TALKING, AND TO MAKE SURE HE'S NOT
r 10
11
BLEEDING PROFUSELY UNTIL PARAMEDICS ARRIVE.
Q. WHEN YOU CONTACTED MR. LOPEZ, WERE YOU THE
r 12
13
FIRST OFFICER TO CONTACT HIM?
A. YES, I WAS.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WERE YOU LATER JOINED BY OTHER OFFICERS?
YES.
r 16 Q. DO YOU RECALL THEIR NAMES?

17 A. I BELIEVE OFFICER BLAZOK AND OFFICER LUJAN.
r 18 Q. AND HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR THEM TO JOIN YOU?
19 A. IT WAS A FEW MINUTES. I WOULD SAY ABOUT THREE
r 20 MINUTES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
AT SOME POINT, DID PARAMEDICS ARRIVE?
YES, THEY DID.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR PARAMEDICS TO ARRIVE?
PARAMEDICS ARRIVED AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME THE
r 25 OTHER OFFICERS DID, SO I WOULD SAY ABOUT THREE MINUTES.
26 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN THEY ARRIVED AS WELL?
r 27 A. YES, I WAS.
r 28 Q. DID YOU WITNESS THEM PROVIDE ANY AID TO
r
489
,.,
j
1
2
MR. LOPEZ?
A. YES. THEY STARTED -- THEY MADE SURE HE WAS
, J
3 BREATHING AT THE TIME, HAD A PULSE, AND THEN THEY BEGAN

4 CUTTING OFF HIS CLOTHING SO THAT THEY COULD EXPOSE THE l
5
6
VARIOUS INJURIES HE HAD TO TREAT THEM.
Q. WHAT HAPPENED DURING THIS TIME THAT YOU
l
7 WITNESSED? i1
8 A. WHILE THEY WERE REMOVING HIS CLOTHING, I
9 NOTICED THAT HE -- THAT LOPEZ ROLLED TO HIS STOMACH AND l
10 LET OUT A BREATH. I NOTICED THAT HIS TORSO HAD STOPPED
11 MOVING. IT LOOKED LIKE HE HAD STOPPED BREATHING. HIS l
12 MOUTH HUNG OPEN AND HIS EYELIDS OPENED AND STAYED
13 OPENED. I NOTICED THAT HE WAS NO LONGER MOVING OR
1
14 MAKING SOUNDS OR APPEARED TO BE BREATHING AT ALL.
1
15
16 AID?
Q. DID THE PARAMEDICS CONTINUE TO TRY TO PROVIDE
,J
17 A. YES. AT THAT POINT THEY ATTEMPTED CPR AND
18 LOADED HIM INTO THE AMBULANCE. l
19 Q. WHILE YOU WERE WITH MR. LOPEZ, WERE YOU JOINED
20 BY ANY CIVILIANS OR ANY OTHER WITNESSES AT THE SCENE? l
21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER CIVILIANS AT THE SCENE AT
l
23
24
THE TIME?
A. NO.
l
25 Q. WERE YOU TASKED WITH CONDUCTING WITNESS l
26 INTERVIEWS OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE?
27 A. NO, I WAS NOT. l
28 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER MOISES LOPEZ WAS
l
1
r 490
r 1 TRANSPORTED BY PARAMEDICS?
r 2 A. OFFICER REESE HAD STOPPED A VEHICLE WITH A
3 PERSON DRIVING IT MATCHING THE DESCRIPTION. HE HAD
r 4 STOPPED A VEHICLE ON OCEAN VIEW. THE DRIVER WAS WEARING
r 5
6
A LARGE BLUE SHIRT AND HAD DARK HAIR, WAS A HISPANIC
MALE, WHICH WAS THE DESCRIPTION I HAD PUT OUT AS THE
r 7
8
PERSON I SAW RUNNING THROUGH THE PARK.
I WENT TO OFFICER REESE'S LOCATION BUT WAS
r 9 UNABLE TO POSITIVELY IDENTIFY HIM AS THE SAME PERSON,
r 10
11
BECAUSE ALL I HAD SEEN WAS THE SHIRT AND OVERALL
STATURE.
r 12
13
Q. DID YOU ASSIST IN ANY SORT OF EVIDENCE
COLLECTION OR SECURING THE SCENE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO, I DID NOT.
HOW LONG WOULD YOU SAY YOU WERE AT THE SCENE IN
r 16 TOTAL?
r 17
18
A.
HOUR.
I WAS THERE PROBABLY ABOUT 45 MINUTES TO AN
r 19
20 FURTHER.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, OFFICER. NOTHING
r 21
22
r 23
24
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 26
27
Q.
A.
GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 28 Q. OFFICER, YOU TESTIFIED THAT WHEN YOU FIRST
r
491
,
l
1
2
HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, YOU WERE AT THE CORNER OF FRANKLIN
AND 40TH -- EXCUSE ME -- OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD AND 40TH.
A. YES, CORRECT.
,
3
l
4
5
6
Q. AND ON PROSECUTION'S 2, THAT WOULD BE THE
INTERSECTION THAT'S IN THE TOP RIGHT QUADRANT OF THAT
EXHIBIT?
,
l
,
7 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
8 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER HOW MANY GUNSHOTS YOU HEARD?
9 A. FOUR TO FIVE.
10 Q. AND THEN YOU TOOK A RIGHT ONTO 40TH?
11 A. CORRECT. l
12 Q. AND THEN ANOTHER RIGHT ON FRANKLIN?
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU WERE RESPONDING TO A CALL, RIGHT?
YES.
l
16 Q. YOU WERE RESPONDING TO A FIGHT IN THAT PARK. l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. THAT INVOLVED 20 OR 30 PEOPLE? l
19 A. THAT WAS WHAT THE CALL STATED, YES.
20 Q. AND FROM THE TIME YOU WERE AT THE INTERSECTION l
21
22
WHERE YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, BY THE TIME YOU PARKED ON
FRANKLIN, WHAT'S THE APPROXIMATE TIME ON THAT?
l
23 A. I WOULD SAY MAYBE 15 SECONDS, 30 SECONDS AT THE
l
24 MOST.
25 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE DRIVING NEXT TO THE PARK ON l
26 40TH, YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY IN THE PARK?
27 A. I DID NOT. l
28 Q. AND WHEN YOU PARKED ON FRANKLIN, YOU DIDN'T SEE
l
,
r 492
r
r 1
3
ANYBODY IN THE PARK AT THAT POINT?
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SO IF THERE WERE 20 OR 30 PEOPLE THERE, THEY
r 4 WERE EITHER GONE OR YOU COULDN'T SEE THEM.
r 5
6
A. YES. WE HAD RECEIVED THE CALL BEFORE I WAS AT
40TH AND OCEAN VIEW. I DIDN'T RECEIVE THE CALL RIGHT
r 7
8
THERE AT 40TH AND OCEAN VIEW. I HAD RECEIVED IT AT A
TIME PRIOR TO THAT, LET'S SAY TWO TO FIVE MINUTES BEFORE
r 9 THAT, AND IT WAS DRIVING TIME FROM MY LOCATION. I

10 BELIEVE I WAS SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 43RD AND
r 11 LOGAN, WHICH IS ABOUT A MILE, TOTAL, AWAY.
r 12
13
Q. OFFICER, WHEN YOU WALKED UP THE HILL TOWARDS
WHERE THE VICTIM WAS, YOU SAW A MAN IN A BLUE SHIRT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AND HE WAS RUNNING?
r 16 A. CORRECT.
r 17
18
Q.
OCCURRED?
WAS HE RUNNING FROM THE AREA WHERE THE SHOOTING
19 A. YES, HE WAS RUNNING FROM THE AREA WHERE THE

r 20 VICTIM WAS LAYING.
r 21
22
Q. AND HE RAN SOUTHBOUND IN THE ALLEY.
NOW, ON THAT EXHIBIT IT'S ACTUALLY UPWARDS,
r 23
24
CORRECT?
A. YES, CORRECT.
r 25
26
Q.
BOTTOM.
BECAUSE ON THIS EXHIBIT, NORTH IS AT THE
r 27 A. CORRECT.
r 28 Q. AND DID YOU PUT OUT AN APB FOR THE GUY?
r
493
l
l
1 A. YES, I PUT OUT OVER THE RADIO THE PERSON THAT I
2 SAW RUNNING FROM THE PARK. l
3 Q. APB IS SHORT FOR ALL POINTS BULLETIN?
4 A. YES. WE DON'T USE THAT, BUT, YES, THAT'S WHAT
l
5
6
IT IS.
Q. IS THAT OLD-FASHIONED OF ME?
l
7 A. YES, IT IS.
l
8 Q. SORRY ABOUT THAT.
9 A. THAT'S ALL RIGHT. l
10 Q. AND THEN YOU RENDERED ASSISTANCE TO THE VICTIM.
11 A. CORRECT. l
12
13
Q. BECAUSE AS A PEACE OFFICER IT'S MORE IMPORTANT
FOR YOU TO DEAL WITH SOMEBODY WHO'S IN DISTRESS THAN TO
1
14
15
CATCH THE SUSPECT, ACTUALLY.
A. OUR PRIORITY IS THE VICTIM, YES.
l
16 Q. SO AT THAT POINT YOU STARTED ASKING HIM SOME l
17 QUESTIONS.
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. AND HE GAVE YOU HIS NAME?
20 A. CORRECT.
l
21
22
Q.
A.
HE GAVE YOU HIS BIRTH DATE?
CORRECT.
l
23 Q. HE ACTUALLY TOLD YOU HIS BIRTH DATE? l
24 A. YES, HE DID.
25 Q. DID HE TELL YOU THE NUMBERS OR DID HE ACTUALLY l
26 SAY OUT THE MONTH?
27 A. THE NUMBERS. l
28 Q. SO HE SAID 10/29/92?
l
1
r 4 94
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
AND HE GAVE YOU HIS ADDRESS?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
HE TOLD YOU THE NEIGHBORHOOD HE LIVED IN.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
HE TOLD ME THAT HE LIVED ON 38TH STREET.
HE SAID 38TH STREET?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
HE SAID 38TH STREET.
AND THEN WHEN YOU ASKED HIM WHO DID IT, HE
r 9 DIDN'T GIVE YOU AN ANSWER.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHEN YOU WERE ASKING HIM THESE QUESTIONS, WERE
r 12
13
THE OTHER TWO OFFICERS, BLAZOK AND LUJAN, PRESENT?
A. NOT INITIALLY, NO.
r 14
15
Q. WERE YOU THERE WHEN OFFICER LUJAN ASKED HIM THE
SAME QUESTIONS?
r 16
17
A. I DON'T RECALL OFFICER LUJAN ASKING HIM THE
QUESTIONS.
r 18 Q. OKAY. BUT YOU WERE THERE WITH THE VICTIM AT
r 19
20
THE SAME TIME AS OFFICER LUJAN?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. DID AT ANY TIME YOU LEAVE THE AREA AND OFFICER
LUJAN STAYED THERE?
r 23
24
A. NO.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
r 26
27
IS THERE REDIRECT?
MR. TROCHA: NO, YOUR HONOR.
r 28 THE COURT: OFFICER, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU MAY
r
495
1
l
1 STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
2 WHY DON'T WE TAKE THE AFTERNOON RECESS, COME TO 1
3 THINK OF IT. THANK YOU FOR THAT MOMENT OF HESITATION,
4 MR. TROCHA.
l
5
6
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE LEAVE THE
NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE
1
7 ADMONITION. LET'S PLAN ON RECONVENING AT 10 MINUTES
l
8 AFTER THE HOUR OF 3:00. THANK YOU.
9 {MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.) l
10 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR
11 YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER. l
12
13
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT; ALL
PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
l
14
15
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. WE CALL
l
16 OFFICER JOHN GONZALEZ. l
17 THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE
18 EVIDENCE YOU SHALL GIVE IN THIS MATTER SHALL BE THE l
19 TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO
20 HELP YOU GOD?
l
21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
I DO.
l
23 THE WITNESS STAND. l
24 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
25 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR. l
27 NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD. l
28 THE WITNESS: JOHN GONZALEZ, G-0-N-Z-A-L-E-Z.
l
1
r 496
r 1
r
JOHN GONZALEZ,
r 3
4
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER GONZALEZ.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
YOU'RE AN OFFICER WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
r 9 DEPARTMENT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
GOING ON FOUR YEARS NOW, SIR.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
SOUTHEASTERN PAROLE.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THIS ASSIGNMENT?
r 16 A. ALMOST THE FOUR YEARS.
r 17
18
Q. TAKE YOU BACK TO A SCENE YOU RESPONDED TO BACK
ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2008.
r 19
20 A.
WERE YOU ON DUTY AT THAT TIME?
YES, I WAS.
r 21
22
Q. DID YOU RESPOND TO A SHOOTING IN OCEAN VIEW
PARK ON THE CORNER OF FRANKLIN AND 40TH?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, SIR, I DID.
ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT THAT SCENE?
r 25 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS AT 9:20, 9:22.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WERE YOU TASKED WITH A DUTY UPON YOUR ARRIVAL?
I WAS.
r 28 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR DUTY?
r
497
1
l
1 A. I HAD A PARTNER THAT EVENING, SO WE WERE
2 ASSIGNED TO BLOCK OFF TRAFFIC FROM FRANKLIN -- FRANKLIN 1
AVENUE.
3
4 Q. AND DID YOU JUST REMAIN AT THAT POST FOR MOST
l
5
6
OF THAT TIME?
A. I WAS THERE FOR THE BEGINNING OF THAT, AND THEN
l
7 I WAS ASSIGNED AS A SCRIBE OF THE SCENE. l
8 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A SCRIBE?
9 A. WHEN WE HAVE A HOMICIDE SCENE, SOMEONE IS l
10 ASSIGNED TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY OF EVERY OFFICER ON
11 SCENE, WHAT THEIR POSTS ARE, WHAT THEIR UNIT NUMBERS l
12 ARE, WHAT THEIR NAMES ARE AND WHAT THEY DID.
13 Q. IS THIS SORT OF A CHECK-IN AND CHECK-OUT LIST?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
SO IF OFFICER SMITH OR JONES WANTED TO COME IN,
l
16 YOU WOULD WRITE WHY THEY'RE THERE, WHEN THEY'RE THERE l
17 AND WHEN THEY LEFT?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 Q. AT SOME POINT DID YOU ALSO -- WERE YOU ALSO
20 GIVEN THE DUTY OF IMPOUNDING SEVERAL VEHICLES?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
YES, SIR, I WAS.
WHEN DID THIS TAKE PLACE?
l
23 A. THIS WAS AFTER THE DETECTIVES HAD ARRIVED AND
l
24 THEY HAD GONE OVER THE SCENE. THEY WANTED TO IMPOUND
25 SOME VEHICLES THAT WERE IN THE PERIMETER OF THE SCENE. l
26 Q. APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME OF DAY WAS THIS?
27 A. ABOUT -- THAT WAS EARLY MORNING AT THAT TIME. l
28 SO WE WERE ALREADY PAST MIDNIGHT, GETTING INTO
Q.
l ~
1
r 498
r 1 THE 14TH?
r 2 A. ABSOLUTELY.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
HOW DOES ONE IMPOUND A VEHICLE?
BASICALLY WE RUN THE VEHICLES FIRST TO FIND OUT
r 5
6
WHO THEY BELONG TO, IF THEY'RE AN ADDRESS CLOSE BY OR
WHATNOT. THEN WE JUST REQUEST A TOW VIA OUR COMPUTERS
r 7
8
OR THROUGH THE DISPATCHER.
Q. WHEN YOU RUN THE VEHICLE, IS THIS TO DETERMINE
r 9 THE REGISTERED OWNER?
r 10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. SO IT WOULD BE CHECKING A COMPUTER OR DMV
r 12
13
RECORDS?
A. YES, SIR.
r 14
15
Q. SO GIVEN THE SITUATION WHERE THERE IS A CAR ON
THE STREET, DO YOU DO ANYTHING TO THE CAR PRIOR TO
r 16
17
MOVING IT TO AN IMPOUND LOT?
A. NOT IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION.
r 18 Q. WHY NOT?
r 19
20
A. BECAUSE THIS IS NOW AN EVIDENCE IMPOUND.
NOT JUST AN IMPOUND, LIKE IF I PULL SOMEONE OVER FOR A
IT'S
r 21
22
SUSPENDED LICENSE OR THE CAR HAS BEEN THERE FOR A
72-HOUR VIOLATION OR WHATNOT, THEN I WOULD GO AHEAD AND
r 23
24
DO WHAT WE CALL AN INVENTORY SEARCH OF THE VEHICLE, BUT
IN THIS SITUATION WE DON'T TOUCH THE VEHICLES BECAUSE
r 25 IT'S NOW EVIDENCE.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
SO THERE'S TWO KINDS OF IMPOUNDS.
CORRECT.
28 Q. SO IF SOMEONE HAD AN EXPIRED REGISTRATION AND
[
r
499
,
l
1 THEIR CAR WAS GOING TO GET TOWED, THAT'S A DIFFERENT
2 ANIMAL ALTOGETHER? 1
3 A. CORRECT.
l
4
5
Q. IN AN EVIDENCE IMPOUND, WHAT IS DONE TO THE
VEHICLES AT THE SCENE, IF ANYTHING, BY YOU?
, j
6 A. BY ME PERSONALLY, THERE'S -- THE ONLY THING I
7 DO IS DOCUMENT THE VEHICLE, WHERE IT'S AT. WE HAVE A l
8 FORM THAT WE USE WHERE ALL THE INFORMATION THE
9 LICENSE PLATE, COLOR, VIN NUMBER, ANY TYPE OF DAMAGE l
10 THAT WE NOTE ON THERE -- AND THERE'S A CODE AS TO WHY
11 WE'RE IMPOUNDING THE VEHICLE. l
12
13
Q. IS THE CAR -- IF THE CAR'S WINDOWS ARE ROLLED
DOWN, WOULD YOU ROLL THEM UP?
l
l
14
15
16
A.
Q.
A.
NO, SIR.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S EVIDENCE. WE WOULD BE
,
~
17 TAMPERING WITH THE EVIDENCE.

18 Q. IN ORDER TO GET THE CAR FROM THE SCENE TO l
19 SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT'S IMPOUND LOT, HOW DOES THAT
20 HAPPEN?
l
21
22
A. THE TOW TRUCK DRIVER WOULD ARRIVE. HE WOULD
THEN PUT IT UP ON EITHER A FLATBED OR WHATEVER TYPE OF
l
23 EQUIPMENT HE BRINGS FOR THAT TOW. I KNOW WE REQUESTED l
24 FLATBEDS FOR THIS PARTICULAR TOW. WE ALSO GIVE THE TOW
25 TRUCK OPERATOR INSTRUCTIONS TO DO AS MINIMAL TOUCHING TO l
26 THE VEHICLE AS POSSIBLE, AND WE WATCH THEM AS THEY LOAD
27 UP THE VEHICLES. l
28 Q. DO YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY GET IN THE CARS OF THE
l
,
r 500
r 1 VEHICLE FOR THEM TO GET ON THE FLATBED?

r 2 A. NO, SIR.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
SO THIS IS ALL DONE OUTSIDE THE VEHICLE?
YES, SIR.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
IN THIS CASE, HOW MANY VEHICLES WERE IMPOUNDED?
IT WAS A TOTAL OF FOUR VEHICLES.
r 7
8
Q.
CARS?
DO YOU RECALL THE MAKES AND MODELS OF THESE
r 9 A. NOT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, I DO NOT RECALL
r 10
11
THEM.
Q. DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE REPORT WITH YOU?
r 12
13
A. I HAVE A COPY OF THE REPORT AND ONE OF THE
IMPOUND SLIPS.
r 14
15
Q. DOES THE REPORT LIST ALL THE CARS -- THE TYPES
OF CARS THAT WERE IMPOUNDED?
r 16 A. IT JUST LISTS THE PLATES.
r
17 Q. DO YOU RECALL IF PHOTOGRAPHS WERE TAKEN OF
18 THESE CARS AT THE SCENE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
AND YOU'VE TESTIFIED IN A PRIOR HEARING IN THIS
r 21
22
CASE, CORRECT?
A. YES, I HAVE.
r 23 Q. SO YOU'VE REVIEWED THESE PHOTOGRAPHS IN THE
r 24
25
PAST.
A. YES, SIR.
r 26
27
Q. WERE ALL THE CARS -- WHERE WERE THE CARS
LOCATED IN REFERENCE TO THE SCENE?
r 28 A. THE MAJORITY OF THE -- THREE OF THE VEHICLES
r
501
,
l
1
2
WERE ON FRANKLIN, JUST NORTH OF THE PARK, AND ONE
VEHICLE IN PARTICULAR WAS IN AN ALLEYWAY, WHAT WOULD BE
, J
3 EAST OF THE PARK.

4 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS l
5 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT -- LET'S GO WITH PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 3. ~
J
6 {PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 3, AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH OF
7 PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 1 _J
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PARK IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT l
10 3?
11 A. YES, SIR, I DO. l
12 Q. YOU CAN SEE FRANKLIN AT THE TOP OF PEOPLE'S
13 EXHIBIT 3?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
DO YOU SEE WHAT THE ALLEYWAY -- WHERE THE
l
16 ALLEYWAY IS IN PEOPLE'S 3? l
17 A. YES, SIR, I DO.
18 Q. IS IT THAT BROWN STRIP THAT RUNS BETWEEN THE l
19 PARK AND THE HOUSES?
l
20
21
22
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
WHERE ON FRANKLIN-- WHEN I SAY "WHERE," WHAT
SIDE OF THE STREET -- WERE THE CARS THAT WERE PARKED ON
,
j
23
24
FRANKLIN?
A. THEY WOULD BE ON THE SOUTH CURBLINE OF
l
25 FRANKLIN. l
26 Q. SO THE SIDEWALK CLOSEST TO THE PARK?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. WERE THEY ALL FACING IN ONE DIRECTION?
l
,
[
502
r
r
I
1
2
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
WHICH DIRECTION WAS THAT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THEY WERE ALL FACING EASTBOUND.
THE CAR THAT WAS FOUND IN THE ALLEYWAY, WHERE
r 5
6
ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 3 WAS THAT CAR?
A. PRETTY MUCH IN THE ALLEYWAY WHERE THAT HEAVY
r 7
8
TREELINE IS IN THE CENTER, TOWARD THE DEAD CENTER OF
THAT ALLEY, FACING NORTHBOUND, TOWARDS FRANKLIN.
r 9 Q. LET'S START SHOWING YOU SOME PHOTOGRAPHS.
r 10
11
I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS
LABELED PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 37 THROUGH 71.
r 12
13
AND WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, I HAVE THESE
ON DIGITAL COPIES, YOUR HONOR, SO WE CAN GO THROUGH THEM
r 14
15
ON THE TELEVISION AS THE OFFICER GOES THROUGH.
THE COURT: YOU MAY. WE'LL DIM THE LIGHTS.
r 16 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 37, PHOTOGRAPH OF HOUSE AND
r 17
18
CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 19
20
Q. UPON THE SCREEN IN FRONT OF YOU, OFFICER, IS
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 37.
r 21
22
DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THIS
PHOTOGRAPH?
r 23 A. YES, SIR, I DO.
r
24 Q. IT APPEARS TO BE A HOUSE IN THE BACKGROUND AND
25 ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE IS A BLUISH-GREENISH CAR.
A. YES, SIR.
r 26
27 Q. IS THAT ONE OF THE CARS YOU IMPOUNDED?
r 28 A. YES, SIR.
L
503
,
l
1
2
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 38, PHOTOGRAPH OF HOUSE AND
CARS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
, J
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
4
5
6
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 38, THAT SAME CAR IS NOW
ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH -- I'M SORRY.
IS THAT ONE OF THE CARS AT THE SCENE?
,
7 A. YES, SIR.
l
8 Q. NOW, WE CAN SEE ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE A DARKER
~
9 CAR. J
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE ONE OF THE CARS YOU l
12 IMPOUNDED?
13 A. YES, SIR.
l
14
15
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 39, PHOTOGRAPH OF CAMRY,
WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
16 BY MR. TROCHA: l
17 Q. WE CAN SEE THAT CAR NOW IN PEOPLE'S 39.
18
19
20
VEHICLE?
A.
CAN WE DETERMINE THE MAKE AND MODEL OF THAT
I BELIEVE IT'S A TOYOTA, BUT FROM THIS PHOTO

,
l
-1
21
22
I'M NOT POSITIVE.
Q. WOULD IT HELP IF YOU SAW COPIES OF YOUR ACTUAL
l
23 IMPOUND SLIPS TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION? l
24 A. YES, SIR, IT WOULD. AND I DO HAVE A COPY OF
25 THE TOYOTA CAMRY. l
26 Q. YOU DO. WHAT COLOR IS THE TOYOTA CAMRY THAT
27 YOU IMPOUNDED? l
,
l
28 A. GRAY.
_j
r 504
r
r 1
2
Q.
FOUND?
AND DOES IT GIVE A LOCATION OF WHERE IT WAS
r 3
4
A.
Q.
4000 FRANKLIN AVENUE.
DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THE GRAY TOYOTA CAMRY
r 5
6
THAT WAS IMPOUNDED?
A. YES, SIR.
r 7
8
Q. IF WE MOVE ON, AND THIS IS STILL MOVING WHAT
WOULD BE WESTBOUND ON FRANKLIN, WOULD THAT BE CORRECT,
r 9 OFFICER?
r
\.
10
11
A. YES, SIR.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 40, PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY AND
r 12
13
CAMRY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 14
15
Q. IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 40, YOU CAN SEE THE BACK OF
THE CAMRY IN THE OPENING OF THE DIRT ALLEYWAY; IS THAT
r: 16 CORRECT?
r 17
18
A. THAT IS CORRECT, SIR.
r 19
20
CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 21
22
Q. CONTINUE TO MOVE WEST, YOU CAN SEE THE ALLEYWAY
TO THE LEFT AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE ANOTHER VEHICLE TO
r 23
24
THE RIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 25 Q. THAT WAS PEOPLE'S 41.
r
L
26
27
NOW, WE'RE MOVING TO PEOPLE'S 42.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 42, PHOTOGRAPH OF EL
[ 28 CAMINO, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
[
505
,
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
'j
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 42 IS A BETTER PICTURE OF THAT J
3 VEHICLE.
4 A. YES, SIR.
l
5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT TYPE OF VEHICLE IS THAT?
THAT'S A CHEVY EL CAMINO.
1
7 Q. IS THAT ONE OF THE VEHICLES THAT WAS IMPOUNDED?
l
8 A. YES, SIR.
9
10
11
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 43, PHOTOGRAPH OF SENTRA,
BY MR. TROCHA:
,
l
J
12
13
Q. MOVING TO PEOPLE'S 43, WE SEE A GREENISH-BLUISH
CAR PARKED BEHIND THE EL CAMINO, AGAIN, WEST ON
1
1
,
14 FRANKLIN; IS THAT CORRECT?
15 A. THAT IS CORRECT, SIR.
16 Q. IS THAT ONE OF THE VEHICLES THAT WAS IMPOUNDED?
17 A. YES, SIR.
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT TYPE OF VEHICLE THAT WAS? l
19 A. I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE NISSAN SENTRA.
20 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 44, PHOTOGRAPH OF FRANKLIN,
l
21
22
BY MR. TROCHA:
l
23 Q. WE CONTINUE TO MOVE UP TO PEOPLE'S 44. l
24 WOULD THIS BE A VIEW FROM THE WEST ON FRANKLIN,
25 LOOKING EAST? l
26 A. YES, SIR.
27 Q. IT WOULD BE APPARENTLY TAKEN JUST TO THE LEFT
SIDE OF THAT NISSAN SENTRA, LOOKING DOWN AT THE
l
,
28
r 506
r
r
1 EL CAMINO AND THE CAMRY?
2 A. YES, SIR.
r 3
4
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 45, PHOTOGRAPH OF FRANKLIN,
[ 5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. PEOPLE'S 45 APPEARS TO BE A PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN
[ 7 FROM THE WEST, LOOKING EAST ON FRANKLIN AND THROUGH THE
r 8
9
PARK, CORRECT?
r 10
11
Q.
PHOTOGRAPH?
CAN WE SEE ANY OF THE VEHICLES IN THAT
r 12
13
A. YES, YOU CAN. IT'S PRETTY MUCH TO THE CENTER
OF THE PICTURE, OFF TO THE LEFT CORNER.
r 14
15
Q. WE CAN SEE THE BACK OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE
NISSAN SENTRA?
r 16 A. YES, SIR.
r 17
18
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 46, PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY,
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 46, WE'RE BACK IN THE
r 21
22
MIDDLE OF FRANKLIN NOW, LOOKING UP THE ALLEYWAY,
CORRECT, OFFICER?
r 23
24
A. CORRECT.
r
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 47, PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
25 WITH CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 26
27
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. THIS WOULD BE MOVING SOUTH DOWN THE ALLEY,
r 28 CORRECT?
r
507
,
l
1
2
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
CAN WE BEGIN TO SEE THE FOURTH CAR THAT WAS
,
3 IMPOUNDED IN THIS CASE?
4 A. YES, SIR. l
5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT CAN WE SEE OF THAT CAR IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
YOU SEE THE HEADLIGHTS OF THE VEHICLE, THE
l
7 FRONT GRILLE, AND THE DOORS LEFT OPEN. l
8 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 48, PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
l
9
10
11
WITH CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 48, THIS WOULD BE AN EVEN
,
CLOSER VIEW OF THE VEHICLE UP THE ALLEYWAY.
12
13 A. CORRECT.
l
14
15
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 49, PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
WITH CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
16 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 49 IS FROM THE REVERSE ANGLE LOOKING
18 NORTH OF THE ALLEY, CORRECT, OFFICER? 1
19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. THIS WOULD BE THE SAME VEHICLE WITH THE DOORS
l
21
22
OPEN?
A. CORRECT.
l
23 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 50, PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY l
24 WITH CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. PEOPLE'S 50 IS TAKEN RIGHT NEXT TO THAT
27 VEHICLE; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT, OFFICER? l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
,
r 508
r
r 1
2
Q. NOW, WE SAW -- THIS WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE, THIS
CAR'S DOORS WERE OPEN
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
-- ON THE SCENE, CORRECT, OFFICER?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
DID YOU CLOSE THESE DOORS PRIOR TO MOVING THIS
r 7
8
VEHICLE?
A. NO, SIR, I DID NOT.
r 9 Q. WOULD THE DOORS HAVE TO HAVE BEEN CLOSED,
r 10
11
THOUGH,
A.
IN ORDER TO TRANSPORT THE VEHICLE?
YES, SIR.
r 12
13
Q. SO THAT WOULD BE THE ONE EXAMPLE OF WHERE YOU
WOULD HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING; OTHERWISE, THE
r 14
15
DOORS ARE GOING TO
A. CORRECT.
r 16 Q. -- DAMAGE THEMSELVES.
r 17
18
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
GOING BACK TO FRANKLIN, WE'RE BACK ON THE
r 19
20
ORIGINAL VEHICLE, THE TOYOTA CAMRY, CORRECT?
A. YES, SIR.
r 21
22
Q. FROM THIS ANGLE, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE PASSENGER
SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, CORRECT, OFFICER?
r 23 A. YES, SIR.
r 24
25
Q. IS THIS HOW THE VEHICLE APPEARED TO YOU PRIOR
TO TRANSPORTING IT?
r 26
27
A. YES, SIR, IT WAS.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 51, PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE OF
[ 28 CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r
509
1
1
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. IF WE LOOK AT PEOPLE'S 51, WE CAN SEE THE FRONT 1
3 PASSENGER WINDOW WHEN IT WAS ROLLED DOWN; IS THAT
4 CORRECT, OFFICER?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WAS THAT HOW THE VEHICLE APPEARED WHEN YOU
l
7 FIRST CAME UPON IT? l
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. NOW, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A POLICE OFFICER l
10 DOING IMPOUNDS OF CARS, IF A VEHICLE'S WINDOW HAD TO BE
11 BROKEN OR OPENED OR A TRUNK HAD TO BE FORCED OPEN OR l
12
13
SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE, WOULD AN OFFICER WHO DID THAT
TELL YOU ABOUT THIS AT SOME POINT DURING YOUR IMPOUNDING
l
14
15
OF THE CAR?
A. IT DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE TO BE DOCUMENTED,
l
16 BECAUSE WE ARE NOW THE ONES CAUSING DAMAGE TO THE 1
17 VEHICLE.
18 Q. NOW, AT THE SCENE, DID ANY OFFICER TELL YOU 1
19 THAT THEY HAD TO FORCE OPEN THIS CAR'S WINDOW OR ROLL
20 THE WINDOW DOWN?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
NO, SIR.
DID ANY OF THAT OCCUR AT THE SCENE FOR ANY OF
l
23 THESE CARS? l
24 A. AS FAR AS US BREAKING INTO THE VEHICLE?
25 Q. CORRECT. l
26 A. NO, SIR.
27 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 52, PHOTOGRAPH OF PASSENGER l
28 SIDE OF CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
1
r 510
r
r 1
2
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I'M SORRY. WE SKIPPED AHEAD.
r 3
4
PEOPLE'S 52 WOULD BE IN THE PASSENGER SIDE FROM
THE FRONT OF THE CAR, LOOKING BACK?
r 5
6
A. YES, SIR.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 53, PHOTOGRAPH OF DRIVER'S
r 7
8
SIDE OF CAMRY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9 Q. PEOPLE'S 53 IS NOW THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE
r 10
11
SAME CAMRY?
A. YES, SIR.
r 12
13
SIDE OF CAMRY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 14
15
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. AND PEOPLE'S 54 IS THE FULL DRIVER'S SIDE OF
r 16 THE CAMRY, CORRECT?
r
17 A. CORRECT, SIR.
18 Q. DOES THIS APPEAR HOW THE CAMRY LOOKED AT THE
r 19
20
SCENE PRIOR TO TRANSPORT?
A. YES, SIR, IT DID.
r 21
22
SIDE OF EL CAMINO, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 55 IS THE EL CAMINO. WE'VE GOT A REAR

r 25 SIDE, DRIVER'S SIDE VIEW, CORRECT?
r 26
27
A. CORRECT.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 56, PHOTOGRAPH OF PASSENGER
L 28 SIDE OF CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r
,
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
511
,
2 Q. THIS WOULD BE A FRONT PASSENGER SIDE VIEW OF 1
3 THE VEHICLE IN PEOPLE'S 56, CORRECT, OFFICER?
l
4
5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WE CAN SEE THE CONDITION OF THE PAINT AND
THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
,
7 A. THAT IS CORRECT. .l
8 Q. THESE WOULD BE THINGS THAT WOULD BE DOCUMENTED
9 ON YOUR FORMS? l
10 A. YES, SIR.
11 Q. IS THIS ALSO FOR LIABILITY PURPOSES IF SOMEBODY l
12 WANTED TO RECLAIM THEIR PROPERTY?
13 A. CORRECT.
l
l
,
14 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 57, PHOTOGRAPH OF CAR, WAS
15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. ON THIS VEHICLE, FROM 56 TO 57, IT APPEARS NONE
,
18
19
OF THE WINDOWS WERE ROLLED DOWN; IS THAT CORRECT,
OFFICER? THIS IS 57. ,
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
57.
AND WE CAN MOVE BACK TO 56.
IT WOULD APPEAR THAT WAY, SIR.
, ..J
l
23
24
25
26
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 58, PHOTOGRAPH OF EL
CAMINO, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. AND PEOPLE'S 58 IS ANOTHER WIDE SHOT OF THE
,
27 EL CAMINO, CORRECT? l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
,
r 512
r SO THIS ACCURATELY DEPICTS HOW THE EL CAMINO

r
1 Q.
2 LOOKED PRIOR TO TRANSPORT?
r 3
4
A. YES, SIR.
r 5
6
SIDE OF SENTRA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 7
8
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 59, THE NISSAN SENTRA,
THIS IS A REAR VIEW LOOKING AT THE PASSENGER SIDE OF THE
r 9 VEHICLE, CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, CAN WE SEE IF ANY OF THE
r 12
13
WINDOWS ON THE PASSENGER SIDE ARE DOWN?
A. YEAH, THEY APPEAR TO BE DOWN, THE PASSENGER --
[ 14 THE FRONT PASSENGER.

15 Q. DOES THE REAR APPEAR TO BE UP OR DOWN, OR CAN
r 16 YOU TELL?
r 17
18
A. TO ME IT APPEARS LIKE IT WAS LEFT UP.
r 19
20
SIDE OF CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 21
22
Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 60. THIS IS A BETTER
VIEW OF POSSIBLE UP AND DOWN WINDOWS ON THE PASSENGER
r 23
24
SIDE.
A. YES, SIR.
r 25 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 61, PHOTOGRAPH OF DRIVER'S
26 SIDE OF CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
[ 27 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 61. THIS IS A FRONT SIDE,
r
513
1
l
1 DRIVER'S SIDE VIEW OF THE SAME CAR.
2 CAN WE SEE IF THE DRIVER'S WINDOW IS ROLLED
j
3 DOWN?
4 A. YES, SIR, IT APPEARS TO BE DOWN.
l
5
6
SIDE OF SENTRA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
1
.l
,
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. PEOPLE'S 62 IS A FULL DRIVER'S SIDE SHOT OF THE
9 SAME SENTRA. j
10 CAN WE DETERMINE IF BOTH WINDOWS ARE ROLLED

11 DOWN IN THIS SHOT? l
12
13
A. YES, SIR. FROM THIS SHOT, I CAN TELL.
l
14
15
MAXIMA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
l
16 Q. PEOPLE'S 63, THIS WOULD BE THE NISSAN MAXIMA UP l
17 IN THE ALLEYWAY, CORRECT, OFFICER?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 Q. WE CAN SEE THE FRONT VIEW AND TWO DOORS OPEN,
20 AT LEAST, ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CAR?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
NOW, YOU SAID THE HEADLIGHTS WERE ON ON THIS
1
23 CAR, CORRECT? l
24 A. AT ONE POINT THEY WERE ON.
25 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THEY WERE TURNED OFF OR IF THE 1
26 BATTERY DIED OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE?
27 A. THE BATTERY JUST DIED. l
28 Q. NOW, USING THIS CAR AS AN EXAMPLE AGAIN, THIS
l
1
r 514
[
1 CAR WAS FOUND WITH ITS HEADLIGHTS ON, OFFICER.
r 2 A. CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q.
ANYBODY?
WOULD THE HEADLIGHTS HAVE BEEN TURNED OFF BY
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO, SIR.
WHY NOT?
[ 7 A. BECAUSE WE JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS. ALSO WHEN

8 THEY COME OUT AND PHOTOGRAPH, LIKE THEY DID, TO SHOW THE
r 9 WAY IT WAS WHEN IT WAS FOUND.
r 10
11
Q. SO AT THE TIME THESE PHOTOGRAPHS WERE TAKEN,
THE HEADLIGHTS ARE OFF, INDICATING THE BATTERY HAD RUN
r 12
13
LOW.
A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
SIDE OF MAXIMA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 64, THE SAME NISSAN
r 18 MAXIMA, DRIVER'S SIDE, YOU CAN SEE THE REAR PASSENGER
r 19
20
DOOR IS OPEN?
A. YES, SIR.
r 21
22
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 65, PHOTOGRAPH OF REAR SHOT
OF PASSENGER SIDE OF CAR, WAS MARKED FOR
[ 23 IDENTIFICATION.)
r 24
25
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 65 IS THE REAR SHOT OF THE PASSENGER
r 26
27
SIDE. IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH YOU CAN SEE THE REAR PASSENGER
DOOR IS OPEN.
r. 28 A. CORRECT.
r
515
l
l
1 Q. BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, WE'LL GO TO -- TELL THE
2 JURY WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE CARS AFTER THEY'RE TAKEN TO l
3 THE IMPOUND LOT.
4 A. AFTER THEY'RE TAKEN TO THE IMPOUND LOT, ONCE
l
5 THEY'RE THERE, THEY GET UNLOADED. AND BECAUSE THEY'RE
l
6
7
HELD FOR EVIDENCE, THEY'RE SEPARATED FROM ALL OTHER
VEHICLES; WE TAKE THEM AND ISOLATE THEM IN A SECURED
,
. I
8 LOCATION. SO THEY GET UNLOADED AND LOCKED INTO THAT
9 SPECIFIC AREA. l
10 Q. HOW FAR IS THE IMPOUND LOT FROM THE SCENE?
11 A. I WOULD SAY A GOOD 10- TO 15-MINUTE DRIVE. l
12 Q. WHERE IS IT LOCATED?
13 A. IT'S UP AT THE EASTERN DIVISION ON -- THE
l
14
15
ADDRESSES ESCAPES MY MIND, BUT IT'S UP IN TRAFFIC
DIVISION.
l
16 Q. WHAT PART OF TOWN? 1
17 A. IT'S STILL IN SAN DIEGO, MISSION VALLEY AREA.
18 Q. WERE ALL THESE CARS TRANSPORTED AT THE SAME l
19
20
TIME BY FOUR DIFFERENT TRUCKS?
A. YES, THEY WERE.
1
21
22
Q.
VEHICLE?
DID YOU GO WITH THESE TRUCKS IN YOUR OWN
1
23 A. IN MY PATROL VEHICLE, YES. l
24 Q. ONCE AT THE LOT, ARE THE CARS OFFLOADED TO
25 THESE TRUCKS? l
26 A. I'M SORRY?
27 Q. ONCE YOU GET TO THE IMPOUND LOT, ARE THE CARS
l J
28 TAKEN OFF THE TRUCKS?

l
l
r 516
r 1 A. YES, SIR.
r 2 Q. HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU SPEND WITH THE CARS AT THE
r 3
4
IMPOUND LOT AT THE IMMEDIATE POINT THEY'RE TAKEN OFF THE
TRUCKS?
r 5
6 GATES.
A. ONCE THEY GET UNLOADED, WE JUST SECURE THE
[ 7 Q. HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND WITH THESE CARS AT
8 THE SCENE?
r 9
10
A. AT THE SCENE?
AND ALL MORNING.

I THINK I WAS THERE ALL NIGHT
r 11 Q. SPECIFICALLY, HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND WITH
r 12
13
THE NISSAN MAXIMA IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 65?
A. AGAIN, I WOULD SAY A GOOD MAJORITY OF THE TIME.
r 14
15
ONCE THE DETECTIVES CAME OUT -- I DON'T RECALL THE TIME
THAT THEY CAME OUT, BUT ONCE THEY CAME OUT, THAT WAS
[ 16 PRETTY MUCH ALL I DID, WAS STAND BY.
r
17 Q. NOW, WHILE YOU WERE WITH THIS CAR, DID YOU HEAR
18 ANY NOISES COMING FROM IT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO, SIR.
WERE THERE ANY REPORTS OF NOISES COMING FROM
r 21
22
IT?
A. NO, SIR.
r 23 Q. ONCE YOU GOT TO THE IMPOUND LOT, DID YOU HEAR
24 ANY NOISES COMING FROM THIS CAR?
r 25 A. NOT INITIALLY. I WAS ALERTED -- I WAS ACTUALLY
r 26
27
WAITING FOR THE TOW TRUCK DRIVER TO FINISH UNLOADING.
HE COMES RUNNING TO MY CAR, SCREAMING, "OFFICER.
[ 28 OFFICER, THERE'S SOMEONE IN THE TRUNK."
r
517
l
l
1 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO UPON HEARING THIS?
2 A. SO I CALLED MY PARTNER, BECAUSE ANOTHER OFFICER l
3 WENT WITH ME, SO WE BOTH RAN TO THE VEHICLE TO CHECK ON
4 THE NOISES. AND THERE WAS, IN FACT, SOMEONE SCREAMING
l
5
6
FOR HELP IN THE TRUNK.
Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO OPEN THE TRUCK?
l
7 A. INITIALLY, WE WEREN'T BECAUSE THE BATTERY WAS l
8 DEAD, THERE WAS NO LATCH IN THE VEHICLE, SO WE HAD TO
9 HAVE THE TOW TRUCK DRIVER PRY IT OPEN WITH THE CROWBAR. l
10 Q. WERE THE KEYS TO THIS CAR STILL IN THE CAR?
11 A. I DON'T RECALL IF THEY WERE, SIR. l
12 Q.
13 WERE?
WOULD IT BE ON YOUR VEHICLE REPORT IF THEY
l
14
15
A.
Q.
IT'S POSSIBLE.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU DISCOVERY PAGE 113.
l
16 DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THE IMPOUND SHEET FOR l
17 THE NISSAN MAXIMA?
18 A. YES, IT IS. l
19 Q. BECAUSE YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE FORM, IS THERE
20 ANYWHERE THAT WE CAN TELL IF THE KEYS WERE STILL
l
21
22
INCLUDED WITH THIS CAR?
A. THERE IS A BACK SIDE TO THE FORM.
1
23 Q. DISCOVERY PAGE 114, IS THIS THE BACK SIDE TO l
24 THAT FORM?
25 A. YES, IT IS. l
26 Q. IS THERE ANY NOTATION THAT THERE IS KEYS THERE
27 OR NOT? l
28 A. NO, THERE IS NO NOTATION.
l
1
[
518
r 1 Q. IF THERE WERE KEYS, WOULD IT BE ON THERE?
r 2 A. AGAIN, I DID NOT GO INSIDE, DIDN'T TOUCH
r 3
4
ANYTHING, SO THAT'S PROBABLY IN THIS SITUATION SOMETHING
I WOULDN'T HAVE DOCUMENTED.
r( 5 Q. OKAY. GIVEN, THOUGH, YOUR DEALINGS WITH THIS
6 VEHICLE, IS IT AN ELECTRONIC TRUNK RELEASE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
I TAKE IT YOU TRIED THAT AT SOME POINT FROM

[ 9 INSIDE THE CAR.
10 A. CORRECT.
r 11 Q. HOW DID YOU EVENTUALLY OPEN THIS TRUNK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WITH CROWBARS.
AND WAS THIS PRYING THE ACTUAL METAL AWAY SO
r 14
15
YOU COULD OPEN IT UP?
A. CORRECT.
r 16 Q. WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT WAS DOCUMENTED?
r 17
18
A. YES, IT WAS.
HOW WE HAD TO GET HIM OUT.

WE DID INFORM THE DETECTIVES OF
WE INITIALLY TRIED TO PULL
r 19
20
THE BACK SEAT DOWN, BUT IT JUST WOULDN'T BUDGE.
I HANDED THE SUBJECT MY FLASHLIGHT THROUGH THE
r 21
22
CENTER -- GOT A LITTLE DROP THAT IT OPENS.
MY FLASHLIGHT, TOLD HIM MOST VEHICLES HAVE A LATCH

I GAVE HIM
r 23
24
RELEASE INSIDE.
STARTED PANICKING.
HE SAID HE COULDN'T FIND IT AND HE
HE THREW THE FLASHLIGHT BACK OUT,
r 25 AND SO THAT'S WHY WE ENDED UP HAVING TO PRY IT OPEN.
26 Q. AND THIS WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF DOCUMENTING

r 27 FORCED ENTRY OR CHANGES TO A VEHICLE ONCE THEY'RE IN
[ 28 CUSTODY.
r
519
,
l
1
2
A. CORRECT.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 66, PHOTOGRAPH OF BACK OF
, .J
3 CAR, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

l
4
5
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 66, IS THIS THE BACK OF ,
1
6 THE CAR?
7 A. YES, SIR, IT IS.
l
8 Q. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT THE PERSON IN THE
9 BACK OF THE CAR, CORRECT? l
10 A. THAT IS CORRECT, SIR.
11 Q. DID YOU GET AN INDICATION OF WHO THE PERSON WAS l
12 IN THE BACK OF THE CAR?
13 A. HE DID IDENTIFY HIMSELF.
l
l
,
14 Q. DO YOU RECALL HIS NAME?
15 A. I BELIEVE HE SAID IT WAS VICTOR RAMOS.
16 MR. RAMOS.
17 Q. AT THAT TIME WERE YOU ALSO JOINED BY A
18 DETECTIVE UP AT THE IMPOUND LOT IN REFERENCE TO l
19 VICTOR RAMOS?
20 A. NEGATIVE, SIR. MY PARTNER CONTACTED ONE OF THE
l
21
22
DETECTIVE AT HEADQUARTERS, AND UPON HIS REQUEST MY
PARTNER DETAINED MR. RAMOS, AND WE BOTH TRANSPORTED. I
1
23 FOLLOWED HIM TO HEADQUARTERS, AND HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY 1
24 THE DETECTIVES THERE.
25 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR PARTNER'S NAME? l
26 A. OFFICER GALANTE.
27 Q. IS THAT PAUL GALANTE? l
28 A. PAUL GALANTE, YES, SIR.
l
,
r 520
r 1 Q. SO MR. RAMOS WAS TAKEN FROM THE IMPOUND LOT
r 2 DOWN TO HEADQUARTERS?
3 A. CORRECT.
L 4 Q. DID YOU DO ANY OTHER FURTHER WORK WITH THESE
r 5
6
VEHICLES, SUCH AS ITEMIZING WHAT WAS FOUND IN THE TRUCK
OR INTERIORS OF VEHICLES?
r 7
8
A. NEGATIVE.
THAT INVOLVED THE VEHICLE.

AGAIN, LIMITED TOUCHING OR ANYTHING
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, OFFICER.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.

[ 11 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
r 12
13
DO YOU WANT THE LIGHTS UP?
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
OF THE PHOTOS.
NO. I JUST WANT TO SEE ONE
[ 16 MAY I APPROACH?
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GIVE ME 71, COUNSEL. I'M
19 SORRY. NOT THIS ONE. HOW ABOUT 40?
L 20 MR. TROCHA: 4-0?
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YEAH.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 23
24
Q. OFFICER, YOU DID NOT TAKE THIS PHOTO,
r 25 CORRECT?
26 A. I DID NOT TAKE THE PHOTO.
[ 27 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE ON THE SCENE?
r 28 A. 2122 HOURS. 9:22 HOURS.
r
521
l
1
1 Q. IN THE EVENING?
2 A. YES, SIR. l
3 Q. SO IT WAS DARK OUT?
4 A. YES, SIR.
l
5
6
Q. THIS PHOTO, NO. 40 THAT I PUT YOUR ATTENTION TO
AND THAT'S ON THE TELEVISION
l
,.,
7 A. YES, SIR. J
8 Q. DOES THAT PHOTO ACCURATELY REFLECT THE
9 LIGHTING IN THAT AREA AT THE TIME THAT YOU ARRIVED? l
10 A. I WOULD SAY IT'S CLOSE -- VERY CLOSE, YES. IT
11 WAS DARK. l
12 Q. IT WAS DARK, RIGHT?
13 A. YES. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME THE PHOTO WAS
l
14
15
TAKEN.
Q. OKAY. THERE APPEARS TO BE A LIGHT SHINING IN
l
16 THE ALLEY OR IT SEEMS TO BE BRIGHT AT THAT AREA, RIGHT? l
17 A. ARE YOU REFERRING TO THIS THE SHINING DOT?
18 Q. NO. I'M REFERRING TO THE ALLEY WHERE THE l
19 STREET AND THE ALLEY MEET APPEARS TO BE LIT UP, RIGHT?
20 A. CORRECT.
l
21
22
Q.
A.
IT WASN'T LIKE THAT OUT THAT NIGHT, WAS IT?
NO. THAT'S CAUSED BY THE FLASH OF THE CAMERA.
l
23 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. l
24 WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN WHO THE REGISTERED
25 OWNERS ARE OF EACH VEHICLE? l
26 A. YES, BY RUNNING THEM THROUGH THE COMPUTER.
27 Q. AND WHO WAS THE REGISTERED OWNER OF THE CAMRY? l
,
l
28 AND THAT WAS THE ONE THAT WAS PARKED JUST --
J
r 522
r 1 AND WE CAN UP THE LIGHTS NOW.

[ 2 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
r 4 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER, OFFICER, THERE WAS A CAMRY
r 5
6
PARKED ON PROSECUTION 3 RIGHT HERE, WHICH WOULD BE TO
THE RIGHT OF THE ALLEY ON FRANKLIN?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
WHO IS THAT REGISTERED TO?
r 9 A. I BELIEVE THAT ONE WAS REGISTERED TO GLORIA

10 JIMENEZ.
r 11 Q. AND BEHIND THAT WAS WHAT NOW WOULD BE TO THE
r 12
13
LEFT OF THE ALLEY, STILL ON FRANKLIN, ON PROSECUTION 3,
WHAT WOULD BE BASICALLY PARKED ON THE CURBLINE, THE
r 14
15
LOWER PART OF THE CURBLINE.
CORRECT?
THAT WAS AN EL CAMINO,
r 16 A. THAT WAS A CHEVROLET EL CAMINO, CORRECT.
r 17
18
Q.
A.
WHO WAS THAT REGISTERED TO?
I DON'T HAVE THAT ONE. I JUST HAVE THE TOYOTA
r 19
20
CAMRY IN FRONT OF ME.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND DO YOU HAVE THE ONE BEHIND
r 21
22
THAT? WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN WHO THAT WAS
REGISTERED TO?
l 23 A. YES. WE WERE ABLE TO ASCERTAIN ALL THE
r
24 VEHICLES.
25 Q. OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER IF THIS ONE --WOULD
26 TOMAS LOPEZ -- DOES THAT RING A BELL?
r 27 A. DOESN'T RING A BELL.
r 28 Q. OKAY. AND THE ONE THAT WAS PARKED IN THE ALLEY
r
1
WITH THE LIGHTS ON, ON PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 3, WHICH
523
, ~
1
2 WOULD BE TO THE RIGHT OF THE TREES ON THE ALLEY, WAS l
3 THAT REGISTERED TO SIRIA FORD?
4 A. I DON'T RECALL THE NAME, SIR. I WOULD HAVE TO
l
5 LOOK AT THE IMPOUND SLIP.
1
6
7
Q. SHOWING THE OFFICER THE IMPOUND SLIP FOR THE
EL CAMINO FIRST, THE CHEVY EL CAMINO, IF YOU WOULDN'T
, J
8 MIND, PLEASE READ THAT AND TELL ME IF IT REFRESHES YOUR
9 RECOLLECTION AS TO WHO THE VEHICLE WAS -- l
10 A. YES, IT DOES, SIR.
11 Q. IT DOES? l
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. AND WHO WAS IT REGISTERED TO?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
TOMAS LOPEZ, JR.
TOMAS LOPEZ?
1
16 A. YES, SIR. 1
17 Q. AND SHOWING YOU THE -- I GUESS IT WAS A NISSAN
18 GXE THAT WAS BEHIND THE EL CAMINO ON FRANKLIN. SHOWING l
19 YOU AN IMPOUND SLIP, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION
20 AS TO WHO IT WAS REGISTERED TO?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
AND WHO WAS IT REGISTERED TO?
l
23 A. SARAH CASTRO. l
24 Q. AND SHOWING YOU THE IMPOUND SLIP FOR THE CAR
25 THAT WAS PARKED IN THE ALLEY, WITH THE DOORS OPEN AND 1
26 LIGHTS ON, ALSO A NISSAN, WHO WAS THAT REGISTERED TO?
27 DOES THAT IMPOUND SLIP REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION? l
28 A. YES, IT DOES, SIR.
l
,
r
r
524
r
1 Q. WHO IS IT REGISTERED TO?
2 A. SIRIA FORD.
r 3
4 FURTHER.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, OFFICER. NOTHING
r 5
6
THE COURT:
REDIRECT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU.
r 7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
r 8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. IN TERMS OF THE LIGHTING CONDITIONS, OFFICER,
r 10
11
DID YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS SEEING THROUGHOUT THE PARK OR
ON THE STREETS THAT NIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO, SIR, I DID NOT.
I'LL SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 44 AGAIN.
r 14
15
DOES THAT ACCURATELY DEPICT WHAT YOU CAN SEE
FROM THAT LOCATION AT THAT TIME?
r 16 A. YES, SIR.
r 17
18
Q. MOVING ON TO 45, COULD YOU SEE WHAT'S DEPICTED
IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH FROM THAT LOCATION AT THAT TIME?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
DID YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS FUMBLING AROUND IN
r 21
22
THE DARK?
A. NO, SIR.
r 23
24
Q. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY IT WAS DARK BECAUSE IT WAS
NIGHTTIME, CORRECT?
r 25 A. YES, SIR, IT WAS.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WAS THERE ANY FOG?
NO, SIR, THERE WAS NOT.
r 28 Q. WAS IT COMPLETE AND TOTAL DARKNESS THAT YOU
r
525
1
l
1 COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING?
2 A. NO, SIR, NOT AT ALL. l
4 THE COURT: FURTHER CROSS?
l
5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING.
OFFICER GONZALEZ, THANK YOU, SIR.
l
7 YOU MAY STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU. JUST LEAVE THAT ON
1
8 THE STAND, PLEASE.
9 THE WITNESS: OKAY. THANK YOU. l
10 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO I UNDERSTAND
11 THAT THE WITNESSES THAT YOU CONTEMPLATED FOR THIS l
12 AFTERNOON, THE POLICE WITNESSES, ARE UNAVAILABLE FOR
13 OFFICIAL DUTIES?
l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I'M STILL THE
l
16 DEFENSE ATTORNEY ON THIS. l
17 THE COURT: THAT'S RIGHT. THIS WOULD BE
18 MR. TROCHA, NOT MR. SPEREDELOZZI. THANK YOU. l
19 MR. TROCHA: YES. THEY'VE BEEN CALLED AWAY, SO
20 UNFORTUNATELY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE UNAVAILABLE FOR THIS
l
21
22
AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,
l
23 PERHAPS IT'S A GOOD THING. WE'LL RECESS EARLY THIS
l
24 AFTERNOON. WE HAD OTHER POLICE WITNESSES ON SLATE, AND
25 I WAS INFORMED DURING OUR LAST RECESS THAT FOR REASONS l
26 OUTSIDE OF THE WITNESSES' CONTROL, THEY FIND THEMSELVES
27 DOING POLICE BUSINESS FROM WHICH, EVEN FOR THIS TRIAL, l
28 IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE TO PULL THEM RIGHT NOW. SO WE'LL
l
,
r 526
r 1 HAVE THEM BACK IN HERE NEXT WEEK.

r 2 WE WILL RECONVENE ON MONDAY, WHICH IS APRIL THE
r 3
4
4TH. PLEASE PLAN ON BEING HERE OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM
AT 9:00. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
r 5
6
ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL. PLEASE DON'T
r 7
8
FORM OR EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS
r 9 ON BEHALF OF BOTH SIDES AND THE COURT, I THANK
r 10
11
YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS
MATTER. WE'LL SEE YOU MONDAY MORNING. THANK YOU.
r 12
13
COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:}
r 14
15
THE COURT:
HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM.
BACK ON THE RECORD. ALL JURORS
ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN
r 16
17
THE COURTROOM.
COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO ADDRESS NOW BEFORE
r 18 WE ADJOURN?
r
l
19
20
MR. TROCHA: NOT AT THIS TIME.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
BATTING ORDER FOR MONDAY?
IT WILL BE THE TWO OFFICERS
r 23 LUCCHESI, LUJAN, WEAVER, AND WE ALSO HAVE JULIO RAMIREZ,

WHO WAS ORDERED BACK, AND WE ARE PLANNING ON BRINGING IN
24
r 25 MS. BERUMEN. IF SHE'S AVAILABLE IN THE MORNING, SHE
r 26
27
WOULD BE ONE OF THE FIRST WITNESSES.
THE COURT: AND WE NEED TO HAVE A BRIEF 402
r 28 HEARING WITH RESPECT TO HER TESTIMONY.
r
,
1 MR. TROCHA: RIGHT.
527
,
2 THE COURT: I KNOW WE HAVE DEFENSE WITNESSES, A 1
3 NUMBER OF THEM ORDERED BACK FOR APRIL 5TH.
4 IS IT OUR CONTEMPLATION THAT WE WILL TRAIL l
5
6
THEIR TESTIMONY OR TAKE THEIR TESTIMONY OUT OF ORDER OR
HAVE YOU GIVEN THIS ANY THOUGHT YET?
l
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK THE ONES THAT HAVE
l
8 BEEN ORDERED BACK, IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO TRAIL IT
9 AND CALL THEM WHEN THE PROSECUTION'S CASE IS OVER. I l
10 EXPECT THEM ALL TO SHOW UP, AND IF THEY DO, WE CAN
11 PROBABLY EXPECT THEM TO SHOW UP AGAIN. AND I THINK, l
12 LOGICALLY, IT MAKES SENSE TO NOT TAKE THEM OUT OF
13 ORDER.
l
14
15
THE COURT:
ALL THINK IS BEST.
HAPPY TO PLAY IT WHICHEVER WAY YOU
THANK YOU, BOTH. ANYTHING FURTHER?
l
16 MR. TROCHA: NO, YOUR HONOR. l
17 THE COURT: WE'LL BE IN RECESS. I WILL BE --
l
18
19
20
TOMORROW IS A COURT HOLIDAY.
THIS COURT WILL BE DARK.
I'LL BE OFF FRIDAY, SO
FEEL FREE TO LEAVE ANYTHING ON
COUNSEL TABLE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO. IT WILL NOT BE
,
J
21
22
INTERFERED WITH OR EXAMINED OR VIEWED IN YOUR ABSENCE.
l
24 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE'RE IN RECESS.
25 (AT 3:45 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL l
26 MONDAY, APRIL 4, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
27 /// l
28 ///
l
1
r
r
r
STATE OF CALIFORNIA)
ss
COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO)


r WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2011.
r
r --/} C.ck~
r ~~y C. SIINO
CSR NO. 6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA, ) HON . CHARLES G. ROGERS,
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. D060019
vs. )
)
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT. )
) TRIAL

VOLUME 8
APRIL 4, 2011
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT:

r

)
r OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACVSOO
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________
DEFENDANT. ) )
APRIL 4, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES:
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL
r
r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE
r JULIO RAMIREZ

559
565
r KELVIN LUJAN
r MICHAEL WEAVER
r GLENNYS BERUMEN

605
608

610
611
r FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 614
r
r
r
r
CASE NO. SCD230596
r WITNESSES
r GLENNYS BERUMEN
PAGE

626
655

683
691
CHAD CRENSHAW
693
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 695

706
707
r MARK LUCCHESI
r JENNIFER SANDERS

771
779
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
r PEOPLE'S 21
DEFENSE JJ
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, CAR AND BEER
TRANSCRIPT
598
604
r DEFENSE KK AUDIO RECORDING 604
r PEOPLE'S 22
PEOPLE'S 17
PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING TOWARD
BUDWEISER BOX
PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MAXIMA LOOKING
701
702
r PEOPLE'S 18
SOUTHBOUND
PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE VIEW OF MAXIMA 702
r PEOPLE'S 19 PHOTOGRAPH OF MAXIMA FROM THE

REAR OF THE ALLEY
703
r PEOPLE'S 20
PEOPLE'S 23
PHOTOGRAPH OF REAR VIEW OF MAXIMA
PHOTOGRAPH OF A CASE OF BUDWEISER
704
704
r PEOPLE'S 71 PHOTOGRAPH OF WESTWARD VIEW ON

FRANKLIN
713
r PEOPLE'S 72
PEOPLE'S 73
PHOTOGRAPH OF FRONT VIEW OF
RESIDENCE
PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING SOUTH FROM
713
714
r PEOPLE'S 74
DIRT ALLEY
PHOTOGRAPH OF BUENDIA BACKYARD 714
r PEOPLE'S 75
PEOPLE'S 76
PHOTOGRAPH OF BACKYARD AND ALLEY
PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE YARD OF
715
715
r PEOPLE'S 77
BUENDIA HOUSE
PHOTOGRAPH OF CLOSER VIEW OF 716
r PEOPLE'S 78
BACKYARD CORNER
PHOTOGRAPH OF T-SHIRT 716
r PEOPLE'S 79 PHOTOGRAPH OF T SHIRT 716
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r
CASE NO. SCD230596
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
PEOPLE'S 80
DESCRIPTION
PHOTOGRAPH OFT SHIRT
PAGE
717
r
L PEOPLE'S 81 PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE YARD AND 718
WOODEN PLANK
r PEOPLE'S 82 PHOTOGRAPH OF BLOODSTAINS ON

WOODEN PLANK
719
r PEOPLE'S 83
PEOPLE'S 84
PHOTOGRAPH OF INFLATABLE POOL
PHOTOGRAPH OF BLOODSTAIN ON
720
720
r PEOPLE'S 85
INFLATABLE POOL
PHOTOGRAPH OFT-SHIRT 720
r PEOPLE'S 155
PEOPLE'S 241
T-SHIRT
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
721
736
r PEOPLE'S 4 PHOTOGRAPH OF /THE NORTHWEST

CORNER SECTION OF THE PARK
738
r PEOPLE'S 5 PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTING PLACARDS 3,

4, 5, 6 AND 7
741
r PEOPLE'S 6
PEOPLE'S 7
4, 5, 6 AND 7
PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEMS 1 AND 2
742
743
r PEOPLE'S 8
FENCE
PHOTOGRAPH OF A BREAK IN THE 743
r PEOPLE'S 9
PEOPLE'S 10
PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEM 1
PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEM 2, BASEBALL
744
745
r PEOPLE'S 158
HAT
HAT 745

CLOTHING
746

SHOE AND SOCK
746
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE

SHOE AND SOCK
747

REDDISH STAIN
747
r PEOPLE'S 17
PEOPLE'S 16
TWO SHIRTS
747
748
r PEOPLE'S 159
PLACARD NO. 10
ITEM 8 751
r PEOPLE'S 24
PEOPLE'S 160
BEER BOTTLE
752
752

BEER BOTTLE
755
r PEOPLE'S 161
PEOPLE'S 26
BEER BOTTLE
756
756

BEER CAN
757
r PEOPLE'S 142
PEOPLE'S 28
BEER CAN
757
757
r
BEER CAN
PEOPLE'S 29 PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD NO. 14 AND 758
VOMIT

BEER CAN
758
r PEOPLE'S 206
PEOPLE'S 31
BEER CAN
PHOTOGRAPH OF RESIDENCE ON
758
759
r FRANKLIN
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DESCRIPTION PAGE
r PEOPLE'S 32
PEOPLE'S 33
PHOTOGRAPH OF OPENING OF GATE
PHOTOGRAPH OF GATE
760
761

PLACARD NO. 17 AND GLOVES
761

GLOVE
762

GLOVE
762
r PEOPLE'S 67
PEOPLE'S 92
PHOTOGRAPH OF INTERIOR OF CAMRY
PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET FROM RIGHT
AXILLA
763
766

THIGH
766
r PEOPLE'S 94 PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET FROM LOWER

BACK
766
r PEOPLE'S 95
PEOPLE'S 90
PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET FROM LEFT
BUTTOCK
PHOTOGRAPH OF WHITE T-SHIRT
766
767
r PEOPLE'S 91 PHOTOGRAPH OF BACK OF WHITE

T-SHIRT
768
r PEOPLE'S 152 WHITE T-SHIRT 768
r
r
r
r
r 528
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, APRIL 4, 2011; 9:06AM
r 2
r
5 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
r 6 THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST
r 7
8
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
PRESENT.
ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
NO MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.
r 9 THE CLERK INFORMS ME THAT THERE ARE SOME
r 10
11
MATTERS WE NEED TO ADDRESS OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE
JURY BEFORE WE GET UNDERWAY THIS MORNING. WHO WANTS TO
r 12
13
SPEAK?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WILL, YOUR HONOR. I NEED
r 14
15
A WITNESS ORDERED BACK, ISMAEL ACEVES. I WOULD LIKE HIM
ORDERED BACK FOR THE 12TH, WHICH IS A WEEK FROM
r 16
17
TOMORROW.
THE COURT: OKAY.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALSO WE HAVE TWO WITNESSES
r 19
20
COMING TOMORROW, GREGORY MENDOZA AND VELASQUEZ.
BELIEVE THEY WERE OTP'D FOR TOMORROW.
I
r 21
22
THE COURT: ARE THEY IN CUSTODY?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BOTH ARE IN CUSTODY. I'M
r 23
24
NOT SURE IF WE NEED TO GET THEM ORDERED BACK FOR ANOTHER
DATE SO THAT THEY DON'T COME HERE TOMORROW, OR IF THEY
r 25 ARE HERE, WE MIGHT TAKE THEM OUT OF ORDER. I'M AFRAID
r 26
27
THAT BOTH THEIR TESTIMONY WILL BE OUT OF CONTEXT BEFORE
ANDRES LOPEZ TESTIFIES.
28 THE COURT: WHAT ARE THE NAMES AGAIN, PLEASE?
r
r
529
1
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GREGORY MENDOZA AND MARCO
2 VELAZQUEZ. DO YOU NEED ME TO SPELL THAT? l
3 THE COURT: NO, THANK YOU.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THEN I HAVE ANOTHER l
5 ISSUE AS WELL.
6 THE COURT: MR. MENDOZA AND MR. VELAZQUEZ IN
l
7
8
ANY DANGER OF BEING RELEASED FROM WHATEVER THEIR CURRENT
CONFINEMENT IS IN THE NEAR FUTURE?
l
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AS FAR AS MR. VELAZQUEZ, l
10 HE'S IN STATE PRISON, SO I THINK NO. MENDOZA, MAYBE.
11 HE'S IN JUVENILE CUSTODY, AND I THINK HE'S DOING A SHORT 1
12 SENTENCE, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE HE'S GOING TO BE RELEASED
13 IN THE NEXT WEEK.
1
14
15 WHAT?
THE COURT: AND YOUR SUGGESTION WOULD BE TO DO
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GET OTP'S FOR THEM FOR THE
l
17 12TH AS WELL, ASSUMING THAT ANDRES LOPEZ IS TESTIFYING
18 THIS WEEK. l
19 MR. TROCHA: HE IS.
20 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, ANY THOUGHTS? DO YOU l
21 WISH TO WEIGH IN ON THIS?
22 MR. TROCHA: NO, YOUR HONOR. WE CAN TAKE THEM
l
23
24
OUT OF ORDER. WE CAN TAKE THEM ON THE 12TH.
COURT'S PREFERENCE.
IT'S THE
l
25 THE COURT: LET'S GET THEM BACK FOR THE 12TH. l
26 VELAZQUES IS THE JUVENILE?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO. MENDOZA IS THE l
28 JUVENILE.
l
1
r 530
r 1 THE COURT: LET ME ASK THE EXPERT, ADDRESSING
r 2 THE CLERK: MS. ZOLEZZI, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO EFFECT
r 3
4
THIS? WE HAVE ONE ADULT IN CUSTODY, SCHEDULED FOR AN
OPT TOMORROW. HE'S BEING HELD HERE FROM STATE PRISON.
r 5
6
IS IT BEST TO ISSUE A NEW OTP AND NOT HAVE HIM PRODUCED
FOR TOMORROW?
r 7
8
THE CLERK:
TRANSPORTATION.
IT WILL SAVE MONEY FOR
r 9 THE COURT: DEPUTY TRAPP, DO YOU AGREE?
r 10
11
THE BAILIFF:
THEY MAY PRODUCE HIM.
THERE IS ALWAYS THAT POSSIBILITY
I WOULD JUST TELL THEM TO TAKE
r 12
13
HIM BACK, IF THEY ARE IN SHERIFF'S CUSTODY.
JUVENILE IS USUALLY TRANSPORTED BY PROBATION.
THE
r 14
15
THE COURT: WITH RESPECT TO JUVENILE, WHAT DO
WE NEED TO DO, ISSUE AN ORDER TO PROBATION?
r 16
17 OUT.
THE CLERK: WE USUALLY DO AN OTP, BUT I'LL FIND
r 18 THE COURT: LET'S DO AN OTP FOR THE ADULT,

19 MR. VELAZQUEZ. HE IS CURRENTLY SUBJECT TO AN ORDER TO
r 20 PRODUCE FOR TOMORROW. LET'S DO A NEW OTP FOR APRIL
r 21
22
12TH, MAKE SURE HE'S CONFINED IN LOCAL CUSTODY HERE
UNTIL THAT TIME, AND CANCEL THE PRODUCTION FOR TOMORROW,
r 23
24
IF THAT WORKS.
IF HE'S HERE, THEN WE'LL SEND HIM BACK. THE
r 25 IMPORTANT THING IS THAT WE DON'T USE HIM. AND THEN,
r 26
27
MS. ZOLEZZI, IF YOU WILL, LET ME KNOW WHAT WE NEED TO DO
WITH RESPECT TO THE JUVENILE OR ANY ORDERS I NEED TO
r 28 MAKE AND I'LL BE GLAD TO DO THAT.
r
~
J
531
l
1
2
DO YOU WANT TO BRING MR. ACEVES IN AND WE'LL
GET HIM ORDERED BACK?
, J
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. I DO HAVE
l
4
5
6
A COUPLE MORE ISSUES.
ORDER BACK?
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE OTHER WITNESSES TO , J
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
NEED TO ORDER BACK.
NO. HE IS THE ONLY ONE I
l
9 THE COURT: LET'S TAKE CARE OF THAT RIGHT NOW, l
10 AND THEN WE CAN MOVE ON TO THE OTHER ISSUES.
11 MR. ACEVES, GOOD MORNING. TELL ME YOUR TRUE l
12 LEGAL NAME, PLEASE.
13 MR. ACEVES: ISMAEL ACEVES.
l
14
15
THE COURT:
MR. ACEVES:
SPELL BOTH NAMES.
I-S-M-A-E-L AND A-C-E-V-E-S.
l
16 THE COURT: MR. ACEVES, I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT
l
17 YOU RETURN ON APRIL THE 12TH, WHICH IS NEXT TUESDAY, A
18 WEEK FROM TOMORROW, AT 9:00 A.M. TO THIS COURTROOM FOR l
19 YOUR TESTIMONY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
20 MR. ACEVES: YES. l
21 THE COURT: THE COURTROOM IS DEPARTMENT 48 OF
22 THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST
1
23
24
BROADWAY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
MR. ACEVES: YES.
l
25 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY. l
26 WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. THANK YOU, SIR. YOU ARE FREE
27 TO LEAVE NOW. l
28 MR. ACEVES: THANK YOU.
l
l
r 532
r 1 THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT IS NEXT?
r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE ANOTHER
r 3
4
WITNESS WHO I SUBPOENAED. HIS NAME IS ANTRIEL MATTHEWS.
HE IS IN CUSTODY AT GEORGE BAILEY. I HAVE THE SUBPOENA
r 5
6
IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT, BUT I'D LIKE HIM ORDERED
PRODUCED FOR APRIL 12TH.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ANTRIEL, A-N-T-R-I-E-L,
r 9 MATTHEWS, M-A-T-T-H-E-W-S.
r 10
11
12
BAILEY?
THE COURT: DO WE KNOW WHY HE'S IN GEORGE
MR. TROCHA: YES. HE GOT CONVICTED OF FELONY

r 13 245 A FEW MONTHS AGO. LAST WEEK HE WAS PICKED UP FOR
r 14
15
BEING UNDER THE INFLUENCE, A VIOLATION OF PROBATION.
HE'S FINISHING OFF 365. HE HAD 316 ACTUAL LAST FRIDAY,
r 16 SO HE'LL BE DOING 30 MORE DAYS.

THE COURT: UNLESS THEY GIVE HIM SOME KIND OF
17
r 18 EARLY KICK.
r 19
20 FRIDAY.
MR. TROCHA: TRUE. HE JUST WENT IN LAST
r 21
22
THE COURT: I'M HAPPY TO GET HIM BACK HERE.
I'M JUST TRYING TO VISUALIZE THE MOST FOOLPROOF WAY TO
r 23
24
DO IT. I CAN ISSUE AN ORDER TO PRODUCE, BUT IF THE
SHERIFF GIVES HIM AN EARLY KICK BEFORE NEXT WEEK, WHICH
r 25
26
IS UNLIKELY BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE, THEN WE'VE LOST HIM.
MY SUGGESTION, FRANKLY, IS THAT YOU GET A
r 27 SUBPOENA, AND I'LL OTP HIM FOR TOMORROW. YOU CAN HAVE
HIM SERVED WHILE HE'S HERE AND WE'LL ORDER HIM PRODUCED,
r 28
r
533
1
l
1 AND THAT WAY IF HE GETS OUT, WE'VE STILL GOT
2 JURISDICTION OVER HIM. 1
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S FINE. LET'S OTP HIM
4 FOR TOMORROW --WELL, HE'S BEEN SUBPOENAED FOR TODAY. I l
5 HAVE THE SUBPOENA ON ME, BUT HE'S NOT WILLFULLY NOT
6 HERE, OBVIOUSLY.
l
7
8
THE COURT: THAT'S TRUE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO LET'S DO THAT SUGGESTION
1
9 0~ THE COURT. l
10 THE COURT: LET'S TRY TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO MAKE
11 THE RECORD AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO GET 1
12 DEFENSE WITNESSES HERE, AND HE'S ENTITLED THAT. ANTRIEL
13 MATTHEWS, OTP FOR TOMORROW. I UNDERSTAND HE'S IN l
14
15
CUSTODY IN GEORGE BAILEY, AND YOU'LL NEED TO PREPARE A
SUBPOENA, THEN, TO HAVE SERVED ON HIM TOMORROW. WE'LL
1
16 ALSO ORDER HIM BACK TOMORROW, BUT LET'S COVER IT ALL
1
17 WAYS POSSIBLE.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WILL DO. l
19 THE COURT: WHAT ELSE?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE A WITNESS COMING IN l
21 WHO WAS ORDERED BACK FOR TOMORROW. ACTUALLY, WE HAVE A
22 BUNCH OF WITNESSES COMING BACK FOR TOMORROW. ALL OF
l
23
24
THEM I'M GOING TO ASK TO BE ORDERED BACK FOR THE 12TH,
BECAUSE PROSECUTION IS NOT DONE WITH THEIR CASE.
1
25 BUT THE ONE WITNESS, RAUL AGUILAR, HE'S THE l
26 YOUNG MAN IN CUSTODY WE RELEASED WITH PASSPORT, HIS
27 FATHER PASSED AWAY A YEAR AGO, AND HE NEEDS A PASSPORT l
28 TO GO DOWN TO MEXICO AND GO TO THE MEMORIAL FOR HIS DAD.
l
l
r 534
r 1 I SPOKE TO HIM ON THE PHONE OVER THE WEEKEND,
r 2
3
AND IF IT IS ALL RIGHT WITH THE PROSECUTION, WE CAN TAKE
r 4
HIM OUT OF ORDER TOMORROW, THEN HE CAN GET HIS PASSPORT
BACK, BE DONE WITH THE CASE AND TAKE OFF.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
TESTIMONY TOMORROW.
SO YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR RAUL'S
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, ONLY BECAUSE HE HAS
SOMETHING GOING ON OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
r 9
10
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
MR. TROCHA, ANY OBJECTION?
NONE.
r 11 THE COURT: THANK YOU. PLAN ON PUTTING HIM ON
r 12
13
FIRST THING IN THE MORNING.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. THE OTHER
r 14
15
ISSUES -- IT'S A WITNESS ISSUE. MELVYN KONG, I HAD
SUBPOENAED HIM BACK IN FEBRUARY WHEN THE TRIAL WAS
r 16
17
ORIGINALLY SET FOR FEBRUARY 15TH. I'VE BEEN IN CONTACT
WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT AND I HAVE RECENTLY
r 18
19
FOUND OUT HE IS NOW RETIRED.
I DIDN'T ASK FOR A WARRANT BECAUSE I HAD -- I
~
[ 20 THINK I HAD TOLD HIM THAT SINCE I ALREADY SUBPOENAED HIM
r 21
22
AND HE HAD IT, THAT WE COULD WORK OUT A DATE HE COULD
COME. HE'S A POLICE EMPLOYEE. I DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS
r 23
24
A CHANCE THAT HE WOULD NOT SHOW UP.
BUT NOW I DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET AHOLD OF HIM.
r 25 I WAS HOPING THE PROSECUTOR, AS A FRIEND OF THE COURT,
r 26
27
COULD GET AHOLD OF MR. KONG AND TELL HIM I WANT TO HAVE
HIM IN FOR TESTIMONY.
28 THE COURT: WHEN DO YOU WANT HIM IN?
r
r
535
1
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SOMETIME AFTER THE 12TH.
2 MAYBE THE 15TH. WAIT, THE 15TH WE ARE DARK, SO MAYBE
3 THE 14TH.
4 THE CLERK: CAN WE HAVE THE SPELLING OF HIS l I
5 LAST NAME.
6 THE COURT: K-0-N-G, MELVYN WITH A "Y." MELVYN
l
,
7 KONG. """'
1
8 MR. TROCHA, DO YOU HAVE ANY ACCESS AS TO HOW WE
9 CAN GET IN YOU TOUCH WITH MR. KONG? I
10 MR. TROCHA: I BELIEVE SO.
~
11 THE COURT: MIGHT I ASK THAT YOU EXPLORE THAT J
12 AND THE COURT COULD WEIGH IN, IN SOME FASHION?
1 J
13 MR. TROCHA: WHAT DATES WOULD THE COURT WANT
14
15
HIM AVAILABLE?
THE COURT: APRIL 14TH.
l
16 MR. TROCHA: I'LL TRY TO CONTACT HIM TODAY.
l
17 THE COURT: THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE IT. HE
18 WAS ALWAYS A PROFESSIONAL GUY. UNLESS HE HAD SOME l
19 FAMILY EMERGENCY, I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT HE WOULD DO
20 ANYTHING TO AVOID THE PROCESS OF THE COURT. l
21 NEXT, MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I SHOULD BRING THIS UP NOW.
l
23
24
I DO THINK THAT MR. SAL CAMPOS HAS BECOME A WITNESS IN
THIS CASE BECAUSE OF THE INTERVIEWS HE DID. I WILL
l
25 SUBPOENA HIM THE NEXT TIME I SEE HIM. HE'S BEEN IN AND l
26 OUT, BUT JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER ON THE D.A. 'S OFFICE, IF
27 THE D.A. WOULDN'T MIND MAKING HIM AVAILABLE IF I NEED TO l
28 CALL HIM, PARTICULARLY THE INTERVIEW WITH JOSUE
l
l
r 536
r 1 GUTIERREZ.
r 2 DURING THAT INTERVIEW THE PROSECUTOR AND
r
3 MR. CAMPOS BOTH TOLD THE WITNESS SEVERAL FACTS ABOUT THE
4 CASE THAT WERE NOT TRUE, SO I THINK THAT'S RELEVANT TO
r 5
6
THE CASE.
THE COURT: ABOUT MAKING MR. CAMPOS AVAILABLE,
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA?
MR. TROCHA: HE'S AVAILABLE.
r 9 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. NO NEED TO
r 10
11
SUBPOENA HIM. YOU CAN GET HIM HERE, MR. TROCHA
MR. TROCHA: YES.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
ALL RIGHT.
-- ON REASONABLE NOTICE?
THANK YOU. AND THEN OUR BATTING
r 14
15
ORDER TODAY WAS DETECTIVE LUCCHESI?
MR. TROCHA: IT'S GOING TO BE JULIO RAMIREZ --
r 16
17
THE COURT ORDERED HIM BACK -- AND THEN GLENNYS BERUMEN.
LUCCHESI IS AVAILABLE THIS AFTERNOON, BUT THE OTHER
r 18
19
OFFICERS THIS MORNING WILL BE WEAVER AND LUJAN.
AND BEFORE WE GET STARTED WITH BERUMEN, YOUR
r 20 HONOR, THERE IS ONE OTHER MATTER. MS. BERUMEN IS HERE
r 21
22
FOR THE 402 AND SHE WILL BE TESTIFYING TODAY.
SHE RECEIVED THREATS FROM AN ANGELINA CAMPOS.
LAST WEEK
MS.
r 23
24
CAMPOS IS GOING TO GET ARRAIGNED THIS AFTERNOON ON THAT
136.1 CASE.
r 25 MS. CAMPOS SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED A REPORT
r 26
27
SHOWN TO HER WITH JOSUE GUTIERREZ'S STATEMENTS AND
GLENNYS BERUMEN'S STATEMENTS. THE PEOPLE HAVE NOT
28 RELEASED ANY REPORTS IN THIS CASE OUTSIDE OF THE
r
r
537
1
l
1 DEFENSE.
2 I DON'T THINK MR. SPEREDELOZZI IS RUNNING l
3 AROUND TOWN SHOWING THE REPORTS. MY GUESS IS HIS
4 INVESTIGATOR IS. EITHER WAY, THERE ARE PEOPLE NOW 1
5 OUTSIDE OF THE CASE CLAIMING TO SEE REPORTS THAT ARE
6 PERSONAL TO THESE WITNESSES, AND, AS A RESULT, THIS
l
7 WITNESS HAS BEEN THREATENED. 1
j
8 I DON'T THINK MR. DOMINGUEZ WE CAN PROVE HE

9 HAD ANYTHING PERSONAL TO DO WITH IT. I DON'T EVEN THINK l
10 IT'S IN HIS KNOWLEDGE PEOPLE ARE THREATENING WITNESSES
11 OUTSIDE THE CASE, GIVEN HIS CUSTODIAL STATUS. 1
12 HOWEVER, UNDER THE CASE LAW, I DO THINK IT'S
13 RELEVANT FOR MS. BERUMEN TO TELL THE JURY WHEN SHE
l
14
15
TESTIFIES SHE HAS BEEN THREATENED, IT WAS AS THIS CASE
WAS GOING ON AND IT'S SPECIFIC TO HER TESTIMONY. THE
l
16 THREATS WERE, "I KNOW YOU'RE SNITCHING." l
17 THIS WAS MADE TO HER BROTHER BY THIS ANGELINA
18 CAMPOS, THE PERSON THEY DO KNOW. SHE CALLED MS. BERUMEN 1
19 A SNITCH. SHE SAID THEN, "YOUR BROTHER IS A SNITCH
20 BECAUSE OF YOU. I'M GOING TO FIND YOU. IF YOU COME TO l
21
22
COURT, I'M GOING TO GET YOU," AND MADE STATEMENTS ALONG
THOSE LINES AND FINISHED IT UP WITH, "DON'T MESS WITH MY
l
23
24
TOWN," WHICH IS A REFERENCE TO SHELLTOWN.
EVEN THOUGH MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD NO CONNECTION TO
1
25 THESE THREATS, I BELIEVE CASE LAW HAS STATED THAT l
26 BECAUSE IT HAS AN EFFECT ON THE WITNESS'S TESTIMONY, HER
27 STATE OF MIND, AS WELL AS HER CONNECTION TO THE CASE, l
28 ALL OF THOSE ARE RELEVANT.
1
l
r 538
r 2 MR. RAMIREZ'S TESTIMONY WILL TAKE HOW LONG, DO
r 3
4
YOU FIGURE?
MR. TROCHA: PROBABLY ABOUT 45 MINUTES, AT
r 5
6
LEAST.
THE COURT: I GUESS MY THOUGHT IS MAYBE -- I
r 7
8
KNOW THAT MS. BERUMEN IS HERE.
402 HEARING.
I KNOW WE HAVE TO HAVE A
IT WOULD BE NICE NOT TO KEEP THE JURORS
r 9
10
WAITING ANY LONGER. MY THOUGHT IS TO TAKE MR. RAMIREZ'
TESTIMONY AND THEN RECESS THE JURORS FOR THEIR
r 11 MID-MORNING RECESS, GIVE THEM A LITTLE EXTRA TIME, WE
12 CAN DO THE 402 HEARING, AND I CAN HEAR FROM
r 13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI ON THE ADMISSIBILITY OF THE THREATS BY
r 14
15
MS. CAMPOS TO MS. BERUMEN.
YOU TELL ME THAT MS. CAMPOS IS TO BE ARRAIGNED
r 16
17
TODAY?
MR. TROCHA: 1:30.
r 18 THE COURT: ARE THERE REPORTS
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THERE ARE.
-- FROM THAT?
r 21
22
ARE THOSE AVAILABLE FOR MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
MR. TROCHA: I CAN MAKE THEM AVAILABLE. I HAVE
r 23
24
A COPY RIGHT NOW THAT NEEDS TO BE XEROXED.
THE COURT: WE'LL SEE THAT YOU GET THOSE,
r 25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, SO YOU CAN BE PREPARED TO RESPOND TO
r 26
27
THE QUESTION OF ADMISSIBILITY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, ANGELINA
28 CAMPOS -- THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I'VE HEARD HER
r
r
1 NAME. MY INVESTIGATOR HAS ONLY INTERVIEWED PEOPLE THAT
539
,
1
!
~
!
2 I DIRECTED HIM TO, AND I NEVER DIRECTED HIM TO INTERVIEW 1
3 A WOMAN NAMED ANGELINA CAMPOS.

4 THE COURT: RIGHT. WELL, IT DOESN'T
l J
5 NECESSARILY MEAN THAT SHE SAW THE REPORTS HERSELF. THEY

1
6
7
8
COULD HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO RELATED IT TO
HER. BUT WE CAN THRASH THAT OUT AS WE NEED TO.
AFTER WE FINISH THE TESTIMONY OF MR. RAMIREZ,
, I
l
9
10
11
WE'LL GET COPIES OF THE CAMPOS REPORTS TO
MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
MR. TROCHA:
ARE THEY VOLUMINOUS OR NO?
NO. THEY'RE SHORT.
, J
12 THE COURT: THEN WE CAN MAYBE EVEN MAKE THEM

13 HERE WHEN WE TAKE THE BREAK, AND THEN LET'S ADDRESS THE
l
14
15
402 AND THESE OTHER ISSUES.
ALL PART OF A DAY'S WORK, GENTLEMEN.
l
16 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN l
17 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:}
18 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND 1
19 GOOD MORNING. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL PARTIES
20 AND COUNSEL PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED ARE PRESENT. ALL 1
21
22
MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN, FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS
l
23
24
CONSIDERATION OF THIS CASE.
YOU'LL SEE THAT WE HAVE MS. EVANS BACK WITH US
l
25 WORKING ON HER PRACTICUM HOURS IN COURT REPORTING. OUR l
26 CLERK TODAY IS MS. DONNA ZOLEZZI. MS. SCHACH IS OFF FOR
27 A DAY OR TWO, AND MS. ZOLEZZI AND I HAVE WORKED TOGETHER l
28 SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MY LEGAL CAREER, WHICH I WILL
l
r 540
r 1 TACTFULLY NOT REITERATE HOW LONG THAT HAS BEEN, IN
r 2 VARIOUS CAPACITIES.
3 SHE HAS MY PERMISSION TO INTERRUPT ANYBODY,

r 4 MYSELF INCLUDED, DURING THE COURTROOM PROCEDURES TO GET
r 5
6
CLARIFICATION WITH RESPECT TO ANYTHING SHE NEEDS TO KEEP
THE MINUTES STRAIGHT, INCLUDING FOREWARNING COUNSEL
r 7
8
EXHIBIT NUMBERS AND IDENTIFYING TAGS AS THAT OCCURS.
I'M APOLOGETIC THAT WE KEPT YOU WAITING THIS

r
t 9 MORNING FOR A FEW MINUTES. WE HAD A COUPLE OF LEGAL
10 ISSUES COME UP WHICH WE NEEDED TO ADDRESS. WE'RE GOING
r 11 TO TAKE ONE WITNESS NOW, AND THEN AT THE MID-MORNING
r 12
13
RECESS, WE MIGHT STRETCH THAT RECESS JUST A LITTLE BIT
SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS SOME OF THESE OTHER LEGAL ISSUES
r 14
15
DURING WHAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE YOUR RECESS.
HOW THAT GOES THIS MORNING.
WE'LL SEE
r 16 AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS

17 MATTER. THE PEOPLE MAY CALL THEIR NEXT WITNESS.
r 18 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE
r 19
20
CALL JULIO RAMIREZ.
r 21
22
TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH?
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
YES.
r 25 THE WITNESS STAND.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME, SIR, IF
GOOD MORNING TO YOU.
28 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING.
r
r
541
l
l
3 THE WITNESS: JULIO RAMIREZ, R-A-M-I-R-E-Z.
4 THE COURT: MR. RAMIREZ. THANK YOU. l
5 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY EXAMINE THE WITNESS.
6 JULIO RAMIREZ,
l
l
8
9
DIRECT EXAMINATION
, 1
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. RAMIREZ. 1
12 A. GOOD MORNING.
13 Q. BEFORE WE GET STARTED TODAY, WE'RE GOING TO BE
l
14
15
TALKING ABOUT AN EVENT THAT OCCURRED IN 2008.
UNDERSTAND?
DO YOU
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. IN TERMS OF ASKING WHERE YOU LIVE AND THINGS OF
18 THAT NATURE, I DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE l
19 CURRENTLY, BUT AT THE TIME. I DON'T ALSO NEED SPECIFIC
20 ADDRESSES, JUST LOCATIONS AND AREAS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND l
21
22
THAT AS WELL?
A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. START OFF BY SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2. CAN YOU SEE PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2 FROM
l
25 WHERE YOU'RE SEATED? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION THAT'S DEPICTED l
28 IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
l
l
r 542
r 1 A. YES.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
WHAT LOCATION IS THAT?
THAT'S MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK.

r 4 Q. NOW, YOU RECOGNIZE THE STREETS IN THIS AS WELL,
r 5
6
SUCH AS THE ONE ON THE RIGHT, THE ONE ON THE LEFT OF THE
PARK AND THE ONE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE PHOTOGRAPH?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT'S THE ONE ON THE RIGHT?
r 9 A. THE ONE ON THE RIGHT WILL BE 40TH STREET.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
THE ONE ON THE FAR LEFT?
THE FAR LEFT WILL BE CUYAMACA.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
AND THE ONE ON THE BOTTOM?
FRANKLIN.
r 14
15
Q. DO YOU HAVE A RELATIVE THAT LIVES IN THE AREA
OF THAT PARK?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO, I DON'T.
BACK IN 2008, DID YOU?
r 18 A. NO.
r
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY BY THE NAME OF MELITON
20 PUENTE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO IS MELITON?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
MY FATHER.
DO YOU KNOW EDUARDO PUENTE?
r 25 A.
Q.
YES.
WHO IS EDUARDO?
r
26
27 A. MY UNCLE.
r 28 Q. WERE YOU IN THE AREA OF THE PARK IN SEPTEMBER
r
1 2008?
543
,
l
I
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. WHILE YOU WERE IN THE AREA, WAS THERE A
4 SHOOTING IN THAT AREA? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING THAT NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING?
l
7
8
A. I ARRIVED AT HOME FROM WORK. I STAYED IN MY
CAR, LISTENED TO MUSIC AS I ARRIVED, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN
l
9 A CAR PULLED UP BEHIND ME WITH THE LIGHTS ON. l
10 Q. NOW, WHAT KIND OF CAR WERE YOU DRIVING AT THE
11 TIME, MR. RAMIREZ? l
12 A. TOYOTA CAMRY.
13 Q. WHAT COLOR? l
14
15
A.
Q.
GREEN.
GIVE ME ONE SECOND, MR. RAMIREZ.
l
16 I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THREE PHOTOGRAPHS, AND l
17 WE'LL PUT THEM ON THE SCREEN WHEN THE TV COMES UP,
18 PEOPLE'S 37, 38, AND 39. l
19 IF YOU COULD, LOOK AT THOSE YOURSELF.
20 THE COURT: MEMBERS OF THE JURY, FEEL FREE TO l
21 STAND AS YOU NEED TO.
l
22
23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SHOWING YOU FIRST WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 37, DO YOU SEE THE TWO CARS IN THAT
, .1
25 PHOTOGRAPH? l
26 A. YES. THAT'S MY CAR RIGHT THERE.
27 Q. THE ONE ON THE FAR RIGHT? l
28 A. YEAH, THE TOYOTA.
l
l
r 544
r 1 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 38, WOULD THAT BE THE

Bm
r 2 BACK OF YOUR CAR?
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. DO WE SEE A SECOND CAR IN PEOPLE'S 38?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WHICH CAR IS THAT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
THE CAR RIGHT BEHIND ME THAT PULLED UP.
THIS IS THE ONE THAT PULLED UP WHILE YOU WERE
r 9
10
SITTING IN IT?
A. YEAH.
r 11 Q. PEOPLE'S 39, IS THAT A FULL VIEW OF THAT
r 12
13
VEHICLE?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. PEOPLE'S 37, 38 AND 39, DOES IT ACCURATELY
DEPICT WHERE BOTH OF THESE CARS WERE AT THE TIME THESE
r 16
17
EVENTS OCCURRED?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU PULL UP IN YOUR CAR?
r
19 A. IT WAS ABOUT CLOSE TO BEING 8:00, ABOUT 7:40,
20 ALMOST 8:00.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
AT NIGHT?
YEAH, AT NIGHT. IT WAS THE NIGHTTIME.
r 23
24
Q. AND WHERE YOU PARKED, IS IT CLOSE TO WHERE YOUR
FATHER'S HOUSE WAS AT THE TIME?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS IT ACROSS THE STREET?
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING IN YOUR CAR AT THIS TIME?
r
l
1 A. I WAS LISTENING TO MUSIC.
545
, J
2 Q. HOW LOUD WAS YOUR MUSIC? l

3 A. PRETTY LOUD.
4 Q. AND HOW LONG WERE YOU LISTENING TO MUSIC IN l
5 YOUR CAR?
6 A. LIKE 10 MINUTES, 10 TO 15 MINUTES.
l
7
8
Q. WAS IT DURING OR AFTER THIS 10 TO 15 MINUTES
THAT THIS SECOND CAR PULLED UP?
l
9 A. IT WAS AFTER. l
10 Q. SO YOU WERE THERE FOR ABOUT 10 TO 15 MINUTES
11 AND THIS CAR PULLS UP BEHIND YOU? l
12 A. UH-HUH.
1 1
13 Q. IS THAT YES?
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE THE LIGHTS ON IN THE CAR?
l
16 A. YES, IT WAS. 1
17 Q. I ASSUME THEY WERE SHINNING BEHIND IN YOUR
18 MIRRORS AND THINGS. 1
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? l
21 A. THERE WAS A FEMALE DRIVER AND A MALE PASSENGER.
22 Q. YOU COULD SEE BOTH OF THESE PEOPLE IN THE CAR?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THEY GOT OFF THE CAR, ARGUING.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE FEMALE FOR THE JURY.
l
25 A. SHE WAS PRETTY TALL, KIND OF LIKE BLONDISH l
26 HAIR, ABOUT LIKE -- HER SKIN WAS KIND OF LIGHT-SKINNED,
27 I THINK. l
28 Q. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY HER BUILD WAS?
l )
l
r 546
r 1 A. SKINNY.
r 2 Q. FOR THE RECORD, HOW TALL ARE YOU?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
ME? I'M LIKE FIVE-NINE.
AND ABOUT HOW MUCH DO YOU WEIGH?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
ABOUT 260.
I TAKE IT SHE WAS SMALLER THAN YOU.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
OF COURSE.
SHE WAS IN THE DRIVER'S SIDE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES, SHE WAS.
WAS SHE THE ACTUAL DRIVER?
r 11 A. SHE WAS DRIVING.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU SAW HER GET OUT OF THE DRIVER'S DOOR?
YES.
r 14
15
Q. WERE THEY IN THE CAR FOR A LONG TIME OR DID
THEY GET OUT IMMEDIATELY UPON PULLING UP?
r 16
17
A. THEY WERE THERE FOR A COUPLE OF SECONDS, AND
THEN THEY JUST GOT OFF THE CAR.
r 18 Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE THE PASSENGER.
r 19
20
A.
BALD-HEADED.
KIND OF BIG GUY, WAS WEARING A WHITE SHIRT,
r 21
22
Q.
A.
ABOUT HOW BIG?
ABOUT -- PRETTY BIG. PRETTY BIG. BIGGER THAN
r 23
24
ME, I THINK.
Q.
A BIG GUY.
WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THESE PEOPLE GOT OUT OF THE
r 25
26
CAR?
A. THEY WERE ARGUING, AND THEY WENT AROUND MY CAR.
r 27 AND I JUST GOT OFF MY CAR AND I MIND MY OWN BUSINESS. I
r 28 DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THIS. I WENT INTO MY HOUSE.
r
547
l
1 Q. WERE THESE PEOPLE ON THE ROAD OR BY THE --
l
2 A. ON THE SIDEWALK. l
3 Q. WERE THEY BY THEIR -- BY THE TIME YOU GOT INTO
4 THE HOUSE. l
5 A. WHAT WAS THAT?
6 Q. WERE THEY STILL ON THE ROAD WHEN YOU GOT INTO
l
7
8
THE HOUSE?
A. YEAH.
l
9 Q. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU GOT TOWARDS YOUR HOUSE? l
10 A. I WENT TO MY HOUSE, AND THEN THEY WENT UP THE
11 DIRT HILL. l
12 Q. YOU SAID, "THE DIRT HILL."
13 CAN YOU SEE THAT IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2? I'M l
14
15
SORRY.
A.
THE LARGER ONE OVER HERE IN THE MIDDLE.
YEAH.
l
1
16
17
Q.
A.
WHERE IS THE DIRT HILL?
RIGHT THERE WHERE THAT TREE IS. I CAN SHOW YOU
,
18
19
20
HERE IN THE PICTURE.
Q. SURE. WE CAN PULL UP ONE OF THE PICTURES IN
FRONT OF YOU THAT CAN SHOW YOU.
,
1
21 FOR THE RECORD, WE'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S ~

J
22 EXHIBIT 39. IS IT THAT DIRT ROAD --
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
-- THAT'S TO THE RIGHT OF THAT CAMRY?

l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. YOU SAW THEM WALK UP THAT ROAD?
27 A. YEAH. l
28 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE THEM COME DOWN THAT ROAD?
l
l
r 548
r 1 A. NO.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
I WAS INSIDE MY HOUSE, AND THEN 10, 15 MINUTES
L 4 LATER, I JUST HEARD SOME GUNSHOTS.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHERE DID THE GUNSHOTS COME FROM?
FROM THE PARK.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DID YOU DO UPON HEARING THESE GUNSHOTS?
JUST GOT SCARED. AND I WENT OUTSIDE TO SEE
r 9
10
WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THEN THE POLICE SHOWED UP AND
EVERYTHING.
r 11 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU CAME OUTSIDE AFTER
r 12
13
THE GUNSHOTS?
A. I SAW THE COP WHEN HE GOT OFF THE CAR AND RAN
r 14
15
BY THE TREE.
IT WAS TOO DARK.
AND A COUPLE OTHER PEOPLE CAME DOWN, BUT
I COULDN'T SEE WHO IT WAS BECAUSE I
r 16
17
WAS SCARED.
Q.
I WENT BACK TO THE HOUSE REAL QUICK.
WHEN YOU CAME OUTSIDE-- LET'S BACK UP A LITTLE
r 18 BIT FURTHER.
r 19
20
WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS, HOW MANY GUNSHOTS
DID YOU HEAR?
r 21
22
A. ABOUT -- I THINK IT WAS AROUND THE WHOLE CLIP
OF THE GUN. SEVEN, I THINK, SO --
r 23
24
Q. THESE GUNSHOTS, WERE THEY ONE AFTER ANOTHER OR
WERE THERE BREAKS IN BETWEEN THEM?
r 25 A. IT WAS RIGHT QUICK. IT WAS BOOM, BOOM, BOOM,
r 26
27
BOOM, BOOM, BOOM.
Q. SO ONE AFTER ANOTHER?
r 28 A. YEAH.
r
549
l
1 1
1 Q. AND YOU SAID THESE GUNSHOTS WERE COMING FROM

2 THE PARK? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY WERE COMING FROM THE PARK? l
5 A. BECAUSE I HEARD LOUD -- I KNOW IT WAS A LOUD
6 NOISE. IT ECHOED.
l
7
8
Q. YOU COULD TELL THE DIRECTION JUST FROM WHERE
THE SOUND WAS COMING FROM?
l
9
10
11
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, DID YOU
IMMEDIATELY GO OUTSIDE?
,
l
j
12 A. NO, I DIDN'T WENT OUTSIDE.

13 Q. YOU NEVER WENT OUTSIDE? l
14
15
A.
Q.
AFTER.
AFTER THE LAST GUNSHOT, DID YOU GO OUTSIDE?
l
16 A. YEAH.
1
17 Q. HOW LONG AFTER THE LAST GUNSHOT DO YOU THINK IT
18 TOOK FOR YOU TO GET OUTSIDE? l
19 A. ABOUT TWO MINUTES, THREE MINUTES AFTER.
20 Q. YOU SAY TWO OR THREE MINUTES. ARE YOU -- l
21 A. WELL, LIKE THREE MINUTES, BECAUSE, I MEAN, IT
22 WAS A LOUD NOISE, AND THEN I WENT TO STOP TO SEE WHAT'S
l
23
24
GOING ON, I WENT OUTSIDE, AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN I
JUST LIKE SAW A COP COMING.
l
25 Q. WAS THERE A LONG DELAY BETWEEN THE GUNSHOTS AND l
26 YOU SEEING THE COP COMING?
27 A. IT WAS JUST RIGHT QUICK, IMMEDIATELY. IF THE l
28 COP COULD HAVE GOT THERE EARLIER, HE MIGHT HAVE SAVED
l
l
r 550
r 1 THE KID.
r 2 Q. THE POLICE OFFICER, WHAT TREE DID YOU SEE HIM
r 3
4
BY?
A. RIGHT THERE BY THAT ONE RIGHT THERE.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT COLOR IS THE TREE?
GREEN, BROWN.
[ 7 Q. WHICH TREE IS IT?

8 A. DOWN BELOW.
r 9 Q. BY FRANKLIN? BY 40TH?
r 10 A. NO, NO. IN THE PARK.

11 Q. THIS TREE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
ABOUT THAT TREE RIGHT THERE.
THIS BROWN TREE THAT'S IN FRONT OF THE RED CAR
r 14
15
ON THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A. UH-HUH, YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
HOW MANY POLICE OFFICERS DID YOU SEE?
JUST THAT ONE.
r 18 Q. YOU SAID YOU SAW SOME OTHER PEOPLE COME OUT OF
r 19
20
THE PARK.
A. YEAH.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHO DID YOU SEE COMING OUT OF THE PARK?
TWO FEMALES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHERE WERE THESE FEMALES WALKING?
DOWN THE DIRT HILL.
r 25 Q. THE SAME DIRT HILL YOU SAW THE COUPLE WALK UP
r 26
27
BEFORE?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE THESE FEMALES FOR THE JURY.
r
1 A. PRETTY BIG, LIKE FAT. SORRY.
551
,
l
j
2 Q. WERE THEY AS BIG AS YOU, SMALLER THAN YOU OR l

3 BIGGER THAN YOU?
l
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
BIG.
ABOUT HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THEY WEIGHED?
I'M NOT SO SURE, BUT THEY WERE BIG.
,
7
8
Q.
A.
AND THEY WERE DEFINITELY FEMALE?
YES, FEMALE.
l
9 Q. WHERE DID THESE WOMEN GO AS THEY WALKED DOWN l
10 THE DIRT HILL?
11 A. DOWN FRANKLIN, MORE TOWARDS THAT WAY. l
12 Q. TOWARDS CUYAMACA?
13 A. YEAH, TOWARDS CUYAMACA. l
14
15
Q. MR. RAMIREZ, DID YOU SEE ANYONE ELSE COME OUT
OF THE PARK?
l
16 A. NO, BECAUSE I JUST WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE AFTER
1
17 THAT.
l
18
19
20
Q. DID YOU EVER SEE THE COUPLE THAT GOT OUT OF THE
CAR THAT PULLED UP BEHIND YOU AGAIN?
A. NO, I DIDN'T.
,
21 Q. SO ONCE THEY ENTERED THE PARK, YOU NEVER SAW
22 THEM AGAIN?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO, I NEVER SAW THEM AGAIN.
DO YOU RECALL TALKING TO THE POLICE ABOUT THIS
l
25 CASE? l
26 A. EXCUSE ME?
27 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO THE POLICE ABOUT l
28 THIS CASE?
l
l
r 552
r 1 A. ON THE NIGHT?
r 2 Q. YES.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU REMEMBER GIVING THEM A DESCRIPTION OF
r 5
6
THE MAN AND THE WOMAN IN THE CAR?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. TODAY YOU SAID THE MAN WAS BIG AND WEARING A
WHITE SHIRT, PRETTY BIG. DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT
r 9 TODAY?
r 10
11
A.
WHITE SHIRT.
WELL, HE WAS A BIG GUY AND HE WAS WEARING A
r[ 12 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE THAT THE
13 PERSON WAS MUSCULARLY BUILT AND WAS WEARING A BLACK TANK
r 14
15
TOP?
A. A BLACK TANK TOP OVER THE WHITE SHIRT.
[ 16 Q. WAS HE WEARING A BLACK TANK TOP AND A WHITE
17 SHIRT?
r 18 A. HE WAS WEARING A TANK TOP, AND THEN I GUESS HE
r 19
20
HAD A SHIRT LIKE ON TOP OF HIM, LIKE, NOT ALL FULLY
DOWN, BUT LIKE UP TO HERE.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WAS THIS A BUTTON-DOWN SHIRT?
NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT KIND OF SHIRT WAS IT?
JUST A PLAIN WHITE SHIRT. PLAIN, LIKE NO
r 25 POCKETS, NO -- JUST --
26 Q. WAS IT A T-SHIRT OR A SHIRT SIMILAR TO WHAT I'M

[ 27 WEARING?
r 28 A. A T-SHIRT.
r
553
l
l
1 Q. WHEN YOU SAY THE PERSON WAS WEARING A T-SHIRT,
2 WAS HE WEARING -- HOW WAS HE WEARING IT? l
3 A. JUST LIKE NOT FULLY WEARING, BUT LIKE JUST
4 THE LIKE SHOWING HIS BLACK TANK TOP AND JUST WHITE l
5 SHIRT.
6 Q. WAS HE WEARING IT TO WHERE THE HEAD WAS THROUGH
l
7 THE COLLAR BUT WASN'T PULLED DOWN OVER HIM?
l
8 A. YEAH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
9 Q. NOT LIKE A CAPE, BUT l
10 A. HE DIDN'T HAVE IT ALL WEARING, BUT JUST LIKE
l
11
12
13
ALMOST ON.
Q.
A.
COULD YOU SEE THE BLACK TANK TOP?
A LITTLE BIT.
, J
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW MUCH OF IT COULD YOU SEE?
JUST LIKE THIS SIDE.
l
16 Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE SIDES?
l
17 A. JUST LIKE ONLY ONE SIDE, LIKE, HE HAD IT
18 WEARING LIKE THIS, LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? HE'S l
19 SHOWING THIS SIDE AND THEN ALL THIS IS DOWN.
20 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR, THE l
21 WITNESS HAS PULLED UP HIS SHIRT, EXPOSING A BLACK
22 T-SHIRT.
1
23
24
THE WITNESS:
THAT'S HOW I SAW HIM.
NO, NO. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE.
l
25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. THAT'S HOW YOU SAW IT?
27 A. YEAH. l
28 Q. YOU COULD SEE THE BLACK TANK TOP WITH THE WHITE
l
l
r 554
r 1 SHIRT PULLED UP ABOVE IT?
r 2 A.
Q.
YES.
SO YOU COULD SEE BOTH?
r
3
4 A. YEAH, I GUESS.
r 5
6
Q. DO YOU ALSO RECALL TELLING THE POLICE THIS
PERSON WAS IN HIS THIRTIES?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THAT ACCURATE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU SAY IT WAS A MUSCULAR BUILD, IS THERE
r 11 A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MUSCULAR BUILD AND, SAY, FAT, AS
r 12
13
YOU DESCRIBED THE OTHER WOMEN?
A. WELL, HE WAS A BIG GUY, BUT HE WAS KIND OF
r 14
15
STRONG, KIND OF BUILT.
Q. HE HAD A SHAVED HEAD.
r 16
17 A.
DO YOU RECALL IF HE HAD ANY FACIAL HAIR?
I THINK -- I BELIEVE HE HAD LIKE A GOATEE.
r 18 Q. WHEN YOU SAY "A GOATEE"
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I CALL THEM, LIKE, MUSTACHE.
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR FACIAL HAIR HERE
r 21
22
TODAY?
A. I DON'T KNOW. MUSTACHE AND GOATEE.
[ 23 Q. YOU HAVE A GOATEE AND A MUSTACHE?

24 A. I GUESS SO.
r 25
26
Q. SO TO YOU IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A
MUSTACHE AND GOATEE?
[ 27 A. I DON'T KNOW. SORRY.
r 28 Q. SOME PEOPLE MIGHT CALL WHAT YOU HAVE ON YOUR
r
555
l
l
1 FACE A GOATEE. WOULD YOU AGREE?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT SAY YOU HAVE A MUSTACHE AND
4 A GOATEE, CORRECT? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. DID THIS PERSON HAVE A MUSTACHE AND A GOATEE?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES. I BELIEVE SO, YES.
HOW LONG WERE THESE TWO PEOPLE ARGUING?
l
9 A. ABOUT 10 MINUTES, 15 MINUTES OVER THERE. l
10 Q. COULD YOU HEAR WHAT THE ARGUMENT WAS ABOUT?
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER CARS PULL UP THAT NIGHT?
13 A. YES. 1
14
15
Q.
A.
WHERE DID YOU SEE THESE CARS PULL UP?
AFTER THE OTHER CARS, THEY CAME. THEY PULLED
l
16 UP RIGHT IN THE BACK OF THIS OTHER CAR, BUT MORE UP.
1
17 Q. WHEN DID THESE CARS PULL UP?
18 A. AFTER. l
19 Q. AFTER WHAT?
20 A. I WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE. l
21 Q. COULD YOU SEE THESE CARS PULL UP FROM BEING
22 INSIDE THE HOUSE?
l
23
24
A. WHEN I WAS GOING ON THE PORCH, WHEN I WAS GOING
INSIDE, AND I WOULD JUST -- I JUST LOOKED AND THEN I
l
25 MIND MY BUSINESS. l
26 Q. SO AS YOU'RE WALKING FROM YOUR CAR ACROSS THE
27 STREET INTO YOUR FATHER'S HOUSE, COULD YOU SEE CARS l
28 PULLING UP?
l
l
r 556
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q. HOW MANY CARS PULLED UP?

3 A. TWO CARS.
r 4 Q. WHAT KIND OF CARS WERE THEY?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
BLACK CAR AND A RED CAR OR A PURPLE CAR.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE TYPES OF CARS THESE WERE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I THINK IT WAS AN OLD EL CAMINO.
I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S
r 9
10
EXHIBIT 40, 41 AND 42. I'LL TRADE YOU.
IF YOU COULD, LOOK AT THESE AND SEE IF YOU
r 11 RECOGNIZE ANYTHING IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
LET'S GO WITH PEOPLE'S 40.
r 14
15
WOULD THIS BE DIRECTLY BEHIND THE CAMRY THAT
YOU SAW PULL UP BEHIND YOU?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, THAT'S BEHIND THE CAMRY.
MOVE TO PEOPLE'S 41.
r 18 WOULD THIS BE FURTHER UP THAT ROAD ON FRANKLIN?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
WE CAN SEE A VEHICLE IN 41, CAN WE NOT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, YOU CAN.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT VEHICLE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES. THAT WAS THE VEHICLE THAT WAS THERE.
IS THAT THE OLDER EL CAMINO THAT YOU SAW PULL
r 25 UP?
26 A. YES.
r 27 Q. YOU CAN SEE A CAR-- IN PEOPLE'S 42, YOU CAN
28 SEE A CAR KIND OF BEHIND THE RED EL CAMINO, CORRECT?
r
r
557
l
1 A. YES.
l
2 Q. WOULD THIS BE THE LOCATION WHERE THE SECOND CAR l
3 PULLED UP?
4 A. OF COURSE, YES. l
5 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 43. IF YOU
6 COULD, TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.
l
7
8 A.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR IN 43?
YES. THAT WAS THE CAR THAT WAS THERE.
l
9 Q. AND SHOWING THE JURY PEOPLE'S 43, THAT IS THE l
10 CAR THAT ALSO PULLED UP WITH THE EL CAMINO?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. DID THE CARS -- THE EL CAMINO AND THE SECOND
13 CAR, THE GREENISH-BLUISH CAR PULL UP AT THE SAME l
14
15
TIME?
A. YES.
l 1
16
17
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY GET OUT OF THESE CARS?
YES, TWO FROM ONE CAR AND TWO FROM ANOTHER CAR.
J
18 Q. SO TWO FROM EACH? l
19 A. TWO FROM EACH.
20 Q. COULD YOU TELL IF THEY WERE MEN OR WOMEN?
l
A. THEY WERE MEN.
21
22 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY WERE MEN?

l
23
24
A. BECAUSE THEY ALL LOOKED LIKE GUYS.
LONG HAIR OR SOMETHING.
NO ONE HAD
l
25 Q. SO NO LONG HAIR? l
26 A. NO.
~
27 Q. JUST SHORT HAIR? 1
28 A. JUST SHORT HAIR.
l
l
r 558
r 1 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE OR REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT
r 2 WHAT THEY WERE WEARING?
r 3 A. NO.
4 Q. NO?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
AND YOU DIDN'T SEE THEIR FACES OR ANYTHING?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU EVER SEE ANY OF THESE MEN THAT CAME OUT
r 9
10
OF THESE TWO CARS COME OUT OF THE PARK AFTER YOU HEARD
THE SHOOTING?
r 11 A. NO.
r 12
13
Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE THREE VEHICLES -- THE
CAMRY, THE EL CAMINO, OR THIS GREENISH-BLUE ONE IN
r 14
15
PEOPLE'S 43 -- LEAVE THE AREA AFTER THE SHOOTING?
A. NO.
r 16 Q. DID THEY STAY THERE?
r
17 A. THE CARS?
18 Q. CORRECT.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU STAY OUTSIDE THE FULL TIME AFTER THE
r 21
22
SHOOTING?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
HOW LONG WERE YOU OUTSIDE AFTER THE SHOOTING?
HOW LONG WAS I OUTSIDE AFTER THE SHOOTING?
r 25 JUST ABOUT FIVE OR 10 MINUTES I WAS OUT THERE, AND THEN
r
26 I JUST WENT BACK INSIDE.
27 Q. WHEN YOU SAW THE TWO WOMEN WALK DOWN THE DIRT
r 28 ALLEY AND WALK DOWN ON FRANKLIN, DID YOU CONTINUE TO
r
559
l
1 STAY OUTSIDE AFTER THEY LEFT?
l
2 A. NO. l
3 Q. DID YOU GO BACK INSIDE DURING THAT SAME TIME?
l
4
5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WRAPPING UP, MR. RAMIREZ, AS YOU'RE SITTING IN
THAT CAR, YOUR CAR, AND YOU SEE THE CAMRY PULL UP BEHIND
, J
8
YOU, YOU SAW THE PEOPLE GET OUT OF THE CAR, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
9 Q. DID YOU SEE THEM GET BACK INTO THE CAR AT ANY
10 TIME?
11 A. NOPE. l
12 Q. DID YOU SEE THEM RETURN TO THAT CAR AT ANY
13 TIME? l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
AND AFTER THE SHOOTING, YOU NEVER -- AFTER THEY
l
16
17
18
19
WENT UP INTO THE DIRT ALLEYWAY INTO THE PARK, YOU NEVER
SAW THEM AGAIN?
A.
Q.
NO, I NEVER SAW THEM AGAIN.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE AROUND THAT GRAY CAR
,
20 AT ANY TIME AFTER YOU WENT INSIDE? l
NO.
21
22
A.

l
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY QUESTION.
l
l
27
28
Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. RAMIREZ. , J
l
r 560
r 2 Q. SO YOU REMEMBER THIS NIGHT, SEPTEMBER 13, 2008?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YEAH, I SUPPOSE. IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO.
BUT YOU REMEMBER IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT EVERY DAY
r 5
6
SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS.
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. WHEN YOU WERE SITTING IN YOUR CAR -- YOU SAID
YOU PULLED UP AROUND 8:00?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU SITTING IN YOUR CAR BEFORE
THE OTHER CAR PULLED BEHIND YOU?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
LIKE 10 MINUTES.
ABOUT 10 MINUTES?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND YOU SAID THAT A MALE AND FEMALE WERE IN THE
r 16
17
CAR, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. AND THEN THEY GOT OUT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
THE FEMALE GOT OUT OF THE DRIVER'S SIDE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
THE MALE GOT OUT OF THE PASSENGER SIDE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THE FEMALE YOU SAID WAS BLONDE?
r 25 A. LIKE, YEAH, HER HAIR.
r
26 Q. MAYBE DIRTY BLONDE?
27 A. YEAH.
r 28 Q. COULD YOU TELL HER RACE?
r
561
l
1 A. NO, I COULDN'T TELL HER RACE, WHO SHE WAS.
l
2 Q. AND SHE WAS A LIGHT-SKINNED? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. SKINNY? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND THEN THE MALE -- YOU SAID HE WAS A BIG
l
7
8
GUY?
A. YEAH.
l
9 Q. HAD A GOATEE? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND HE WAS BALD? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND YOU SAID HE WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT, l
14
15
CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. NOW, AS THE PROSECUTOR WAS TALKING ABOUT A
l
17 STATEMENT YOU MADE TO THE POLICE -- DO YOU REMEMBER
18 MAKING THAT STATEMENT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DID YOU TELL THE POLICE OFFICER IN THE l
21 INTERVIEW THAT NIGHT THAT HE WAS WEARING A BLACK TANK
22 TOP?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU FAILED TO MENTION THE WHITE T-SHIRT TO
l
25 THE POLICE OFFICER THAT NIGHT? l
26 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE T-SHIRT? THE WHITE
27 T-SHIRT THAT HE WAS WEARING? l
28 Q. FOR INSTANCE, MR. RAMIREZ, YOU NEVER TOLD THE
l
l
r 562
r 1 POLICE OFFICER WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWED THAT NIGHT THAT
r 2 THE MAN WAS WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THAT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE TELLING NOW
5 FOR THE FIRST TIME, RIGHT?

r 6 A. WELL, I COULDN'T REMEMBER. IT HAPPENED A LONG
r 7
8
TIME AGO.
Q. YOUR DESCRIPTION THEN WAS A HISPANIC MALE,
r 9 BLACK TANK TOP, FIVE-TEN, IN HIS THIRTIES, WITH A

10 MUSCULAR BUILD, RIGHT?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
AND THEY WERE STANDING OUTSIDE THE CAR, RIGHT?
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
AND THEY WERE ARGUING.
YES.
r 16
17
Q. WERE THEY STANDING IN THE FRONT OF THE CAR, THE
BACK OF THE CAR, OR ON THE SIDE OF THE CAR?
r 18
19
A.
Q.
ON THE SIDE OF THE CAR.
WHICH SIDE, THE DRIVER'S SIDE OR THE PASSENGER?

r 20 A. THE PASSENGER SIDE.
21
r 22
Q.
A.
SO BETWEEN THE CAR AND THE SIDEWALK?
UH-HUH.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WERE THEY ON THE SIDEWALK?
THEY WERE ON THE SIDEWALK.
r 25 Q. WERE THEY CLOSE TO WHERE THE ALLEY MEETS

26 FRANKLIN ON PEOPLE'S 2?
r 27 A. THEY WERE CLOSE BY THE ALLEY, BUT MORE IN FRONT
r 28 OF THE HOUSE, THE NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE.
r
563
l
l
1
2
Q.
A.
AND HOW LONG DID YOU OBSERVE THEM FOR?
ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.
, j
3 Q. OKAY. AND THEN YOU DECIDED TO GO INSIDE?

4 A. YEAH, MIND MY OWN BUSINESS, GO INSIDE.
5 Q. SO THAT'S WHEN YOU GOT OUT OF YOUR CAR?
l
6
7
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU WALKED OVER TO YOUR PORCH?
, j
8 A. YES.
9 Q. AND THEN YOU LOOKED BACK AND YOU SAW THAT THEY l
10 HAD WALKED UP THE DIRT ALLEY?
,
"'9
11 A. UH-HUH. J
12 Q. OKAY. AND THEN BEFORE YOU GOT INTO YOUR HOUSE,
I
13 YOU SAW TWO OTHER CARS PULL UP? J
14 A. YES.
l
15
16
Q. AND ON PEOPLE'S 2, THOSE CARS PULLED UP TO WHAT
WOULD BE BETWEEN THE ALLEY ON PEOPLE'S 2 AND BETWEEN
, j
17 40TH, SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN THERE, CORRECT?

18 A. CORRECT. 1
19 Q. AND THEN THOSE PEOPLE WALKED UP INTO THE PARK?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. AND THE FIRST TWO PEOPLE, THE MAN AND THE
22 WOMAN, THEY WALKED UP THIS DIRT ALLEY ON PEOPLE'S 2,
l
23
24
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
25 Q. BUT THE OTHER FOUR PEOPLE, THEY WALKED UP THE l
26 GRASSY HILL ON PEOPLE'S 2, CORRECT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. AND THEN YOU WENT IN YOUR HOUSE?
l
l
r 564
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AND THEN ABOUT 15 MINUTES LATER YOU HEARD
r 3
4
GUNSHOTS?
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q. DURING THIS 15 MINUTES, WERE YOU WATCHING WHERE
THE DIRT ALLEY MEETS FRANKLIN?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
YOUR ESTIMATE OF 15 MINUTES, HOW PRECISE DO YOU
r 9
10
THINK THAT IS?
A.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO REPHRASE?
YEAH, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN? I'M SORRY.
r 11 Q. SURE. YOU SAID 15 MINUTES.
r 12
13 BEEN 10?
HOW SURE ARE YOU THAT IT WAS 15? COULD IT HAVE
r 14
15
A.
Q.
COULD HAVE BEEN 10.
HOW ABOUT 20?
r 16
17
A.
QUICK.
ABOUT RIGHT THERE, TOO. IT JUST HAPPENED RIGHT
I WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE, AND THEN ALL OF A
r 18 SUDDEN I JUST HEARD GUNSHOTS.
r 19
20
Q.
MINUTES.
BUT YOU HAD BEEN WATCHING THE FIGHT FOR A FEW
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH, A FEW MINUTES. REAL QUICK.
AND YOUR BEST ESTIMATE IS 15?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND, AGAIN, FOR THAT 15, YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T
r 25
26
WATCHING THE DIRT ALLEY.
EITHER.
YOU WEREN'T WATCHING THE PARK
r 27 A. NO.
r 28 Q. ONE MORE THING, MR. RAMIREZ. YOU SAID WHEN YOU
r
1
565
, J
1 WERE LISTENING TO MUSIC OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE, YOU WERE ,.,
2 PLAYING THE MUSIC PRETTY LOUD. J
3 A. YES.
4 Q. IS THAT WHY YOU COULDN'T HEAR WHAT THEY WERE
l 1
5 SAYING?
l
6 A. YEAH.
,
,
J

9 REDIRECT? J
10 MR. TROCHA: COUPLE QUESTIONS.

11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION l
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. HOW MANY ROUNDS OF THE FIGHT DID YOU SEE WHEN l
14
15
YOU WENT INSIDE?
A. IT WAS JUST A ROUND. JUST ONE ROUND.
l
16 Q. ONE ROUND?
l
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. AND THIS WAS A BOXING MATCH? l
19 A. YEAH, IT WAS A BOXING MATCH THAT NIGHT.
20 Q. NOT MMA OR UFC? l
21 A. NO. IT WAS BOXING ON HBO.
22 Q. YOU'RE A BOXING FAN?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
OF COURSE.
HOW LONG IS A REGULATION ROUND?
l
25 A. 12 ROUNDS. l
26 Q. HOW LONG IS EACH ROUND?
27 A. LIKE THREE MINUTES. l
28 Q. YOU SAW ONE ROUND?
l
l
r 566
r 1 A. YEAH. I WAS NOT DOING SOMETHING ELSE IN MY
r 2 HOUSE.
r
r 5
6
RECROSS EXAMINATION
r 7
8
Q. YOU SAID YOU WATCHED ONE ROUND, RIGHT?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WERE YOU DOING ANYTHING ELSE IN THE HOUSE?
I WENT BACK TO MY ROOM.
r 12
13
Q.
SHOTS?
YOU WENT TO YOUR ROOM BEFORE YOU HEARD THE
r 14
15
A.
Q.
BEFORE I HEARD THE SHOTS?
YES.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THAT WAS AFTER.
BEFORE YOU HEARD THE SHOTS, MR. RAMIREZ, DID
r 18 YOU DO ANYTHING IN THE HOUSE BESIDES WATCH BOXING?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU SAID ONE ROUND. ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW ARE YOU SURE?
r 23
24
A. BECAUSE I WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE, I WATCHED A
LITTLE BIT OF TV WITH MY FATHER BY WATCHING THE BOXING
r 25
26
FIGHT, AND THEN I JUST WENT INSIDE MY ROOM A COUPLE
MINUTES, AND THEN I JUST HEARD SOME GUNSHOTS AND WENT
r 27 OUTSIDE AFTER IT HAPPENED.
r 28 Q. SO YOU WERE WATCHING BOXING AND THEN YOU WENT
r
567
l
1
2
IN YOUR ROOM AND THEN YOU HEARD GUNSHOTS?
A. YES.
, j
3 Q. SO YOU WATCHED ONE ROUND, THEN YOU WENT IN YOUR

4
5
6
ROOM, RIGHT?
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THEN AFTER THAT YOU HEARD GUNSHOTS?
, J
,
l
7 A. YEAH.
9 THE COURT: ANYTHING FURTHER? J
10 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU.

11 THE COURT: MR. RAMIREZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING 1
12 TO COURT, SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
13 MAY HE BE EXCUSED? 1
14 MR. TROCHA: YES. ~
J
15 THE COURT: YOU ARE EXCUSED. PLEASE DON'T TALK
16 ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY OR THE QUESTIONS YOU WERE ASKED
l
17 HERE IN COURT WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES EXCEPT
18 INVESTIGATORS UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER. OKAY? 1
20 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR. l
21 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA:
YOUR HONOR.
WE CAN PUT ON A POLICE OFFICER,
l
25 THE COURT: LET'S DO THAT. l
26 MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE CALL KELVIN LUJAN.
27 THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE l
28 EVIDENCE YOU SHALL GIVE IN THIS MATTER SHALL BE THE
l
l
r 568
r 2 HELP YOU GOD?
r
3 THE WITNESS: I DO.
r 5
6
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR.
r 7
8
GOOD MORNING TO YOU.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING, SIR.
r 9
10
r 11 THE WITNESS: KELVIN LUJAN, K-E-L-V-I-N,
r 12
13
L-U-J-A-N.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY QUESTION.
r 16
17
KELVIN LUJAN,
r 19
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 21
22
Q.
A.
GOOD MORNING, OFFICER LUJAN.
GOOD MORNING, SIR.
r 23
24
Q. YOU'RE AN OFFICER WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
DEPARTMENT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES, I AM.
r 27 A. 13 YEARS.
r 28 Q. WHAT'S YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT?
r
569
,
l
1 A. MY CURRENT ASSIGNMENT IS WITH THE GANG
2 SUPPRESSION TEAM. l
3 Q. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH THE GANG
4 SUPPRESSION TEAM? l
5 A. A LITTLE OVER TWO YEARS. ~
J
6 Q. WHEN YOU WERE WORKING BACK IN 2008, WHAT WAS
7
8
YOUR ASSIGNMENT?
A. I WAS WITH THE -- WE CALL IT CST, THE CRIME
l
9 SUPPRESSION TEAM. l
10 Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CRIME
11 SUPPRESSION TEAM AND THE GANG SUPPRESSION TEAM? 1
12 A. REALLY NOT THAT MUCH DIFFERENT. BASICALLY CST
13 IS A DIVISION, TEAMS WITH OFFICERS JUST OUT TRYING TO
1
14
15
SUPPRESS DIFFERENT TYPES OF CRIME.
Q. WITH THE CRIME SUPPRESSION TEAM, WAS THERE A
l
~
,
16 SPECIFIC PART OF TOWN YOU WORKED IN? J
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT PART OF TOWN WAS THAT?
19 A. THE SOUTHEASTERN DIVISION.
20 Q. DOES THIS ENCOMPASS A NEIGHBORHOOD KNOWN AS
1 J
21 SHELL TOWN?
22 A. YES, IT DOES.
l
23
24
Q. IN YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT IN THE GANG
SUPPRESSION TEAM, ARE YOU ALSO IN THE SAME AREA?
l
25 A. ON OCCASIONS, YES. l
26 Q. IS THIS A MORE WIDESPREAD, THOUGH, BEAT, IF YOU
27 WILL? l
28 A. FOR THE GANG TEAM?
l
l
r 570
r 1 Q. CORRECT.
r 2 A. YES, IT IS.
r 3
4
Q. SO FOCUSING BACK ON 2008, WERE YOU ON DUTY THE
NIGHT OF SEPTEMBER 13, 2008?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, I WAS.
WHERE WERE YOU AROUND 9:30 IN THE EVENING?
r 7
8
A. SOUTHEASTERN DIVISION.
WHAT AREA.
I CAN'T RECALL EXACTLY
I BELIEVE IT WAS LIKE OCEAN VIEW STREET
r 9
10
AREA.
Q. IN THAT AREA OF OCEAN VIEW -- OCEAN VIEW RUNS
r 11 EAST TO WEST, WEST TO EAST, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
DOES IT CUT ALMOST ALL THE WAY THROUGH ALL OF
r 14
15
SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO?
A. IT DOES, FROM THE 15 -- ACTUALLY FROM DOWNTOWN
r 16
17
ALL THE WAY UP TO EUCLID AVENUE TO THE EAST.
Q. DOES IT CUT SHELLTOWN IN HALF?
r 18 A. YES, IT DOES.
r 19
20
Q. IS THERE A PARK IN THE AREA OF OCEAN VIEW
BOULEVARD?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, THERE IS.
WHAT PARK IS THAT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
OCEAN VIEW PARK I BELIEVE IS WHAT THEY CALL IT.
I'LL FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT
r 25 2, THIS PHOTOGRAPH TO MY RIGHT AND YOUR LEFT.

IS THAT A PORTION OF OCEAN VIEW PARK?
r
26
27 A. YES, IT IS.
r 28 Q. AND TO HELP YOU GET ORIENTED, I'M ALSO GOING TO
r
, j
571
l
1 SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1. PEOPLE'S 1 IS TWO
2 PHOTOGRAPHS. 1
3 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE AREA IN THE TOP
4
5
PHOTOGRAPH?
A. YES, I DO. , 1
6 Q. IS THIS A COMPLETE VERSION OF -- OR A COMPLETE
7 VIEW OF OCEAN VIEW PARK?
l
8 A. YES, IT IS.
HAVE YOU ALSO HEARD IT BE CALLED MOUNTAIN VIEW
,
,
9 Q. J
10 PARK?
11 A. CORRECT. 1
12 Q. AROUND THIS TIME, DID YOU RECEIVE ANY CALLS OF
13 A DISTURBANCE WITHIN OCEAN VIEW PARK?
1
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THE CALL?
1
1
16
17
18
19
A.
Q.
A.
I BELIEVE IT WAS WHAT WE CALL 11-6'S, AND
THAT'S A POLICE TERM FOR GUNSHOTS HEARD.
ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU RECEIVE THIS CALL?
I CAN'T RECALL. IT WAS IN THE EVENING.
,
20 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO l
21 LOOK AT A COPY OF YOUR REPORT?
22 A. IT WOULD, YES.
1
23
24
Q. DISCOVERY PAGE 496, FOR THE RECORD.
THIS WOULD BE A PAGE OF YOUR OFFICER'S
l
25 STATEMENT, CORRECT, OFFICER? l
26 A. YES, IT IS.
27 Q. WOULD YOU READ THAT TO YOURSELF TO DETERMINE l
28 ABOUT WHAT TIME YOU RECEIVED THAT CALL AND THEN LOOK UP.
l
l
r 572
r 1 WHAT TIME DID YOU RECEIVE THE CALL?
r 2 A. ABOUT .2120 HOURS.
r
3 Q. WHAT IS THAT IN NONMILITARY TIME?
4 A. I'M SORRY. 9:20.
5 Q. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU RECEIVED THE CALL?
r 6 A. I WAS IN A PATROL CAR, SO IN THAT AREA.
r 7
8
Q. AND YOUR PATROL CAR, IS THIS A SINGLE UNIT OR
DID YOU HAVE A PARTNER?
r 9
10
A. YOU KNOW, I CAN'T RECALL, BUT USUALLY WHEN I
WAS RIDING WITH THE CST, THE CRIME SUPPRESSION TEAM, I
r 11 WAS USUALLY WITH A PARTNER.
12 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO UPON RECEIVING THE CALL?
r 13 A. I WENT TO MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT PART OF MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK DID YOU GO TO?
IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THAT TOP PICTURE, IT WOULD
r 16
17
BE THE LEFT-HAND PORTION OF THE PARK, WHICH WOULD BE THE
NORTH SIDE.
r 18 Q. AND YOU'RE REFERRING TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1?

19 A. IS THAT THE TOP ONE?
r 20 Q. YES.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
AND WE CAN SEE THE BOTTOM PICTURE, WHICH IS
r 23
24
ALSO PART OF PEOPLE'S 1, THE BLOW-OUT, IS THAT THE
SECTION OF THE PARK YOU REFERRED TO?
r 25 A. YES.
26 Q. FOR THE DURATION, WE'LL DEAL WITH PEOPLE'S
r 27 EXHIBIT 2, WHICH IS A NORTHERLY VIEW OF THAT SECTION OF
r 28 THE PARK; WOULD YOU AGREE, OFFICER?
r
573
,
l
1 A. YES, I WOULD AGREE.
,
2
3
4
Q.
A.
WHERE IN THE PARK DID YOU RESPOND TO?
RIGHT
THERE OF THE PARK.
PROBABLY RIGHT TOWARDS THE MIDDLE , J
5 Q. IS THERE ANY LANDMARKS OR THINGS IN THAT ,., )

J
6 PHOTOGRAPH THAT WOULD ASSIST YOU IN SHOWING THE JURY
7
8
WHERE YOU RESPONDED TO?
A. YEAH. THERE'S A RED CIRCLE, I BELIEVE, CLOSE
l
9 TO THAT. l
10 Q. DID YOU DRIVE INTO THE PARK OR DID YOU PARK
11 YOUR CAR AND WALK INTO THE PARK? l
12 A. I ACTUALLY -- YOU CAN SEE A SIDEWALK JUST TO
13 THE RIGHT OF THAT RED CIRCLE. I THINK I DROVE MY CAR
l
14 CLOSE TO IT.
15 Q. AND THE SIDEWALK WE'RE REFERRING TO, IS THAT
l
16
17
18
THE WINDING SIDEWALK WITHIN THE PARK?
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AS OPPOSED TO THE SIDEWALK BETWEEN THE PARK AND
, j
19 40TH STREET.
20 A. CORRECT. l
21
22
Q. AS YOU DROVE NORTH ON 40TH FROM THE LOCATION
YOU WERE RESPONDING TO, DID YOU SEE ANYBODY RUNNING FROM
1
23
24
THE PARK?
A. YOU KNOW WHAT? I DID NOT SEE ANYBODY RUNNING.
l
25 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY CARS DRIVING AWAY FROM THE l
26 PARK?
27 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF I DID OR DID NOT. l
28 Q. IF YOU HAD, WOULD YOU HAVE PUT THAT IN YOUR
l
l
r 574
r 1 REPORT?
r 2 A. I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHEN YOU ENTERED THE PARK, WHAT DID YOU SEE?
I SAW TWO OFFICERS ALREADY ON SCENE, AND THEY
r 5
6
WERE STANDING OVER SOMEBODY THAT WAS LAYING ON THE
GROUND.
r 7
8
Q.
GROUND?
DID YOU CONTACT THIS PERSON LYING ON THE
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
DID YOU -- CAN YOU TELL THE JURY THE CONDITION
r 11 OF THE PERSON LYING ON THE GROUND.
r 12
13
A. YEAH. THE CONDITION WAS -- WHEN I WALKED UP TO
HIM, THERE WERE TWO OFFICERS TO EITHER SIDE OF HIM.
r 14
15
THEY WERE BUSY ON THE RADIO PUTTING OUT DIFFERENT
INFORMATION. I WALKED UP TO THE -- IT WAS A MALE,
r 16
17
HISPANIC. HE WAS IN OBVIOUS PAIN. I KIND OF JUST DID
AN ASSESSMENT, TRIED TO SEE WHAT HIS INJURIES WERE.
r 18 Q. COULD YOU SEE VISIBLE INJURIES WHEN YOU ARRIVED
r 19
20
AT THIS LOCATION?
A. I COULD SEE BLOOD COMING FROM I BELIEVE IT WAS
r 21
22
HIS SHIRT AND SOME TRAUMA TO HIS HEAD.
Q. AT THE TIME YOU ARRIVED, YOU SAID THERE WERE
r 23
24
TWO OTHER OFFICERS THERE.
A. CORRECT.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
DO YOU RECALL WHO THESE OFFICERS WERE?
YES.
r 27 Q. WHO WERE THEY?
r 28 A. OFFICER MIKE WEAVER AND SAM EULER.
r
575
, j
l
1 Q. WERE THERE ANY PARAMEDICS OR EMERGENCY
2 PERSONNEL THERE? l
3 A. THERE WERE NOT, NOT AT THAT TIME.
4 Q. THE PERSON ON THE GROUND, DID THESE OFFICERS l
5 IDENTIFY HIM TO YOU OR DID YOU TRY TO GET IDENTIFICATION
6 FROM THE PERSON ON THE GROUND?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
I TRIED TO GET IDENTIFICATION FROM HIM.
HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO DO THAT?
1
9 A. BY ASKING HIM QUESTIONS. l
10 Q. WAS HE CONSCIOUS?
11 A. HE WAS SEMICONSCIOUS, YES. l
12 Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
13 A. WELL, ACTUALLY HE WAS IN OBVIOUS PAIN, SO HE l
14 WAS FIGHTING THROUGH THE PAIN. AND AT THAT POINT I WAS ~
1
15 JUST TRYING TO GATHER INFORMATION SO I COULD HOPEFULLY
16 IDENTIFY THE SUBJECT THAT WAS ON THE GROUND.
l
17 Q. WERE YOU ASKING HIM QUESTIONS?
18 A. I WAS ASKING THE QUESTIONS. l
19 Q. WHAT QUESTIONS WERE YOU FIRST ASKING?
20 A. "HEY, WHAT HAPPENED? ARE YOU HURT?" AND IT'S l
21 OBVIOUS THAT HE WAS, BUT AT THAT TIME I'M TRYING TO
22 ELICIT ANSWERS FROM HIM TO DETERMINE WHAT HIS STATE OF
l
23
24
ABILITY WAS TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
Q. WAS HE ABLE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS?
l
25 A. SOME OF THEM HE WAS. l
26 Q. DID IT TAKE EFFORT TO GET HIM TO ANSWER YOUR
27 QUESTIONS? l
28 A. IT DID TAKE EFFORT.
l
l
r 576
r 1 Q. SUCH AS, I MEAN, YOU DIDN'T JUST ASK HIM WHAT
r 2 HIS NAME WAS AND HE RESPONDED, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHEN YOU ASKED HIM WHAT HIS NAME WAS, HOW MANY
r 5
6
TIMES DID YOU HAVE TO ASK THAT QUESTION?
A. I WANT TO SAY IT WAS LIKE THREE OR FOUR TIMES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT EVENTUALLY WAS HE ABLE TO RESPOND WITH?
HE WAS ABLE TO GIVE ME A NAME, HIS LAST NAME,
r 9
10
AND HIS BIRTHDAY.
Q. WHAT NAME DID HE GIVE YOU?
r 11 A. I WOULD HAVE TO REFRESH MY MEMORY BY LOOKING AT
r 12
13
MY REPORT.
Q. IF IT WOULD HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR
r 14
15
RECOLLECTION --
A. IT WOULD.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
PLEASE DO SO.
OKAY.
r 18 Q. WHAT NAME DID HE GIVE YOU, OFFICER?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
HE GAVE ME MOISES LOPEZ.
AND THIS WAS AFTER THREE OR FOUR ASKINGS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
DID YOU ASK HIM HIS DATE OF BIRTH?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DID ASK HIM HIS DATE OF BIRTH.
HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU ASK HIM THIS QUESTION?
r 25 A. PROBABLY AROUND THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIMES.
r 26
27
Q.
BIRTH?
WAS HE ABLE TO PROVIDE YOU WITH A DATE OF
r 28 A. YES, HE WAS.
r
577
, J
l
1
2
3
Q.
A.
Q.
WHAT WAS THAT?
10/29/1992.
DID HE GIVE YOU THAT IN NUMBERS OR DID HE
,
4 ACTUALLY SAY OCTOBER? l
5 A. YOU KNOW, I CAN'T RECALL, BUT USUALLY MOST
l
6
7
PEOPLE WILL GIVE ME THE NUMBERS.
Q. WHAT ELSE DID YOU ASK HIM?
, J
8 A. I WANT TO SAY I ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHO DID
9 THIS TO HIM. l
10 Q. WAS HE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A RESPONSE INITIALLY?
11 A. NO. 1
12 Q. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU ASK HIM WHAT HAPPENED?
13 A. MORE THAN THREE OR FOUR TIMES, I BELIEVE. l
14
15
Q.
QUESTION?
WAS HE GIVING YOU ANY RESPONSES TO THE
l
16
17
A. YEAH, HE WAS GIVING ME RESPONSES.
l
Q. WHAT RESPONSES WERE THOSE?
18 A. THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO DID IT. 1
19 Q. DID HE APPEAR TO KNOW THAT HE WAS TALKING TO A
20 POLICE OFFICER? l
21 A. YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS HIS MINDSET,
22 BUT WE'RE ALL IN UNIFORM, AND I'M SURE HE COULD HEAR THE
l
23
24
RADIO. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE WAS THINKING, BUT
OBVIOUSLY WE WERE THERE TO HELP HIM, SO AT SOME POINT HE
1
25 DID KNOW. l
26 Q. NOW, YOU KEPT SAYING HE WAS IN OBVIOUS PAIN.
27 WAS HE MOVING AROUND AT ALL? l
28 A. OH, YES.
l
l
r 578
r 1 Q. HOW SO?
r 2 A. WHEN I FIRST GOT THERE, HE WAS KIND OF ON HIS
r
3 SIDE. HE WOULD ROLL TO HIS BACK, ROLL TO HIS STOMACH,
4 ROLL BACK ONTO HIS BACK. SO HE WAS IN A CONTAINED AREA,
r 5
6
BUT CONSTANTLY MOVING BECAUSE OF THE PAIN.
Q. SO HE NEVER GOT UP ON HIS FEET OR ANYTHING LIKE
r 7
8
THAT?
A. NO, HE NEVER DID.
r 9
10
Q. WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE PARK, HE WASN'T WALKING
AROUND, WAS HE?
r 11 A. HE WAS NOT.
r 12
13
Q. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A POLICE OFFICER, HAVE
YOU SEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED GUNSHOT WOUNDS BEFORE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
MANY TIMES.
HOW MANY TIMES? BALLPARK.
r 16
17
A. I'VE BEEN A COP FOR 13 YEARS WORKING THE
SOUTHERN DIVISION, SO AT LEAST 20. 20 PEOPLE, AT LEAST.
r 18 Q. AS YOU WERE WITH MR. LOPEZ OR MOISES LOPEZ
r 19
20
ON THE GROUND, DID YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT INDICATED HE
HAD BEEN SHOT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DID YOU SEE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
GUNSHOT WOUNDS.
TO WHERE?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I WANT TO SAY TO HIS TORSO.
DID YOU SEE THIS INITIALLY OR WAS THIS AT A
r 27 LATER TIME?
r 28 A. IT'D HAVE TO BEEN UNDER A MINUTE WHILE I WAS
r
~
I
I
579
l
1 THERE TRYING TO ASSESS HIS INJURIES.
2 Q. WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID THE PARAMEDICS l
3 ARRIVE?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. DID THE PARAMEDICS PERFORM ANY FIRST AID OR
6 ANYTHING ELSE TO MR. LOPEZ?
l
~
7 A. YOU KNOW WHAT? WHEN PARAMEDICS ARRIVE ON
J
8 SCENE, ESPECIALLY TO A GUNSHOT VICTIM, THEY'RE DOING ALL
9 THE MONITORING AS FAR AS THEIR BLOOD PRESSURE; THEY'RE l
10 LOOKING AT THE WOUNDS. THEY CUT HIS PANTS OFF, CUT HIS
11 SHIRT OFF. l
12 Q. WHEN THEY CUT HIS CLOTHING OFF, COULD YOU SEE
13 FURTHER INJURIES THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE INITIALLY? 1
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHAT DID YOU SEE?
l
16 A. YOU KNOW WHAT? I SAW GUNSHOT WOUNDS. I CAN'T
l
17 RECALL EXACTLY WHERE, BUT I KNOW THERE WERE SOME ON THE
18 TORSO AREA. 1
19 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO
20 LOOK AT YOUR REPORT? l
21 A. IT WOULD.
22 Q. PLEASE DO SO.
l
23
24
WHAT WERE THE EXTENT OF THE INJURIES YOU
WITNESSED THAT NIGHT?
1
25 A. CHEST INJURY, ALSO HIS LEG. THERE WAS A l
26 GUNSHOT WOUND TO HIS LEG, UPPER THIGH AREA.
27 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY NON-GUNSHOT INJURIES? l
28 A. YES, I DID.
l
l
r 580
[
1 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THAT REGARD?
r 2
3
A. IT LOOKED LIKE A LACERATION MAYBE TO THE BACK
PORTION OF HIS HEAD.
r 4 Q. WAS THERE BLOOD COMING FROM THESE INJURIES?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, THERE WAS.
THIS IS AS YOU'RE ASKING QUESTIONS AND AS THE
r 7
8
PARAMEDICS ARE ASSISTING HIM?
A. YOU KNOW WHAT? IT WAS SOMEWHAT BEFORE. WHEN
r 9 PARAMEDICS GET TO A SCENE AND THEY'RE WORKING ON A

10 VICTIM, I KIND OF LET THEM DO THEIR THING. I TRY TO
~
I 11 HELP THEM OUT AS MUCH AS I CAN.
r 12
13
Q. SO THE EXTENT OF YOUR OBSERVATIONS IS MOSTLY
BETWEEN THE TIME YOU GET THERE AND BETWEEN THE TIME THE
r 14
15
PARAMEDICS GET THERE.
A. CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q. ABOUT HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU THINK YOU SPENT WITH
MR. LOPEZ IN THIS PERIOD?
r 18 A. LESS THAN TWO MINUTES.

19 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THE PARAMEDICS ARRIVED?
r 20 A. YOU KNOW WHAT? I WANT TO SAY WHEN THEY -- I
r 21
22
CAN'T EVEN RECALL IF THEY ACTUALLY TRANSPORTED HIM.
REMAINED AT THE SCENE.
I
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DID YOU CONTACT ANYONE ELSE AT THE SCENE?
I CAN'T RECALL IF I DID.
r 25 Q. WHILE YOU WERE IN THE PARK, WAS THERE ANYBODY

26 ELSE IN THE PARK OTHER THAN POLICE PERSONNEL?
r 27 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF THERE WAS.
r 28 Q. IF THERE WERE, WOULD THEY BE IN YOUR REPORT?
r
581
1
l
1 A. YES, THEY WOULD. ,.,
2 Q. DID YOU CONTACT ANYONE AS A RESULT OF THE J
3 INCIDENT AT THE PARK?
4 A. YOU KNOW WHAT? I WANT TO SAY THAT SOME l
5 OFFICERS WERE TALKING TO SOME PEOPLE ON OCEAN VIEW
6 BOULEVARD JUST SOUTH OF THAT LOCATION, AND I MIGHT HAVE
l
7
8
WENT OVER THERE TO ASSIST THEM.
Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO
l
9 DETERMINE THAT BY LOOKING AT YOUR REPORT? l
10 A. IT WOULD.
~
11 Q. PLEASE DO SO AND LOOK UP WHEN YOU'RE FINISHED. J
12 A. ALL RIGHT.
13 Q. WHAT IS YOUR -- IS YOUR MEMORY REFRESHED AS TO l
14
15
THAT REGARD?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. WHO DID YOU CONTACT ON 4000 OCEAN VIEW
l
17 BOULEVARD?
18 A. I ASSISTED AND ENDED UP WITH THE CONTACT OF 1
19 DAVID FLORES.
20 Q. WAS THERE ANOTHER PERSON THAT WAS CONTACTED l
21 WITH MR. FLORES?
22 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF THERE WAS.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
BUT YOUR INTERACTION WAS WITH MR. FLORES?
CORRECT.
l
25 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, OFFICER LUJAN. NOTHING l
26 FURTHER.
l
l
r 582
r 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 3
4
Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. LUJAN.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING, SIR.
MR. LUJAN, YOU WERE NOT THE FIRST POLICE
r 7
8
RESPONDER TO THE SCENE, CORRECT?
A. I WAS NOT.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
THERE WERE TWO OFFICERS ALREADY PRESENT.
CORRECT.
r 11 Q. AND YOU SAID THAT THE TIME YOU SPENT WITH THE
r 12
13
VICTIM WAS LESS THAN TWO MINUTES?
A. APPROXIMATELY, YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND DURING THESE TWO MINUTES, YOU WERE ABLE TO
GET FROM HIM HIS NAME, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
SORRY, OFFICER, YOU HAVE TO SAY "YES" OR "NO"
r 18 BECAUSE WE'RE REPORTING THIS.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
OKAY.
SO YOU WERE ABLE TO GET HIS NAME?
21 A. YES.
[
22 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO GET HIS DATE OF BIRTH?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU SAID YOU THINK, TO THE BEST OF YOUR
r 25 RECOLLECTION, IN NUMBERS?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHO SHOT HIM, AND
r 28 HIS EXACT WORDS WERE, "I DON'T KNOW WHO SHOT ME,"
r
583
l
1 CORRECT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. AND THAT HAPPENED IN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES?
4 A. YES. l
6 THE COURT: REDIRECT?
l
7 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU. l J
8 THE COURT: OFFICER, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU MAY

9 STEP DOWN. l
10 MAY THIS WITNESS BE EXCUSED?
11 MR. TROCHA: YES. 1
12 THE COURT: YOU ARE EXCUSED. PLEASE DON'T
13 DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY OTHER WITNESS, EXCEPT 1
14
15
INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER.
THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.
1
16 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
l
17 MR. TROCHA: I CAN CALL OFFICER WEAVER, TOO,
18 YOUR HONOR. 1
19 THE COURT: LET'S DO IT.
20 MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE CALL MICHAEL WEAVER. l
l
23
24
HELP YOU GOD?
l
25 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM. l
28 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
l
l
r 584
r 1 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
r 2 THE CLERK: COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL
r 3
4
THE WITNESS: MICHAEL WEAVER, W-E-A-V-E-R.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA.
r 7
8
MICHAEL WEAVER,
r 9
10
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q.
A.
GOOD MORNING, OFFICER WEAVER.
GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL.
r 14
15
Q. YOU'RE AN OFFICER WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
DEPARTMENT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
r 18 A. I'M GOING ON SIX YEARS NOW.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
MID-CITY PATROL.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN MID-CITY?
A YEAR AND COUPLE MONTHS.
r 23
24
Q. WHAT PART OF TOWN DOES MID-CITY PATROL
ENCOMPASS?
r 25
26
A. EVERYTHING SOUTH OF THE -- EXCUSE ME -- SOUTH
OF THE 8, NORTH OF THE 94, WEST OF LA MESA, AND EAST OF
r 27 THE 805 FREEWAY.
r 28 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT PRIOR TO MID-CITY?
r
585
1
l
1 A. SOUTHEASTERN PATROL.
2 Q. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A DIFFERENT PART OF TOWN THAN l
3 MID-CITY.
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU IN SOUTHEAST?
6 A. THREE YEARS.
1
~
7 Q. THIS WAS AS A PATROLMAN?
I
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A PARK KNOWN AS MOUNTAIN l
10 VIEW OR OCEAN VIEW PARK?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S MARKED AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2
13 TO MY RIGHT, YOUR LEFT, IS THAT A PORTION OF THE PARK? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES. THAT'S THE NORTH HALF OF THE PARK.
LET ME GO BACK TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1, TWO
l
l
16
17
18
19
PHOTOGRAPHS IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1.
TOP PHOTOGRAPH.
JUST FOCUS ON THE
IS THAT A COMPLETE PICTURE OF MOUNTAIN VIEW OR

OCEAN VIEW PARK?
,
20 A. WE'RE LOOKING AT THE TOP HALF OR THE BOTTOM? l
21 Q. THE TOP HALF, OFFICER.
22 A. IT APPEARS TO BE. OH, YES, IT IS. I CAN SEE
l
23
24
OCEAN VIEW RUNNING THROUGH THE HALF.
Q. ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, WERE YOU ON DUTY?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHAT PART OF TOWN WERE YOU IN?
27 A. SOUTHEASTERN SAN DIEGO, SPECIFICALLY MOUNTAIN l
28 VIEW.
l
l
r 586
r 1 Q. DID YOU RECEIVE A CALL OF AN INCIDENT OR A
r 2 DISTURBANCE IN MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS THIS CALL?
r 5
6
A. OH, OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD,
MAYBE 8:00 P.M.
IT WAS AROUND 7:00,
r 7
8
Q.
A.
LATER IN THE EVENING?
I THINK THAT'S FAIR TO SAY. I DON'T REMEMBER
r 9 THE SPECIFIC TIME.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THE CALL?
IT WAS A FIGHT INVOLVING A LARGE GROUP OF
r 12
13
MALES.
Q. WHERE?
r 14
15
A. I BELIEVE THE CALL ORIGINATED AT 40TH AND OCEAN
VIEW, WHICH IS THE INTERSECTION ADJACENT TO THE PARK.
r 16
17
FROM PRIOR BEAT KNOWLEDGE, I KNEW THAT THE PROBLEM HAD
TO BE IN ONE OF THE HALVES OF THE PARK. IT MORE THAN
r 18 LIKELY WASN'T GOING JUST TO BE IN THE INTERSECTION.
r 19
20
Q. FOR THE RECORD, THAT WOULD BE THE INTERSECTION
RIGHT HERE IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
DID YOU RESPOND TO THAT LOCATION?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT TO THAT LOCATION?
r 25 A. I WAS ACTUALLY ALREADY THERE. I HAD BEEN
r
26 SITTING THERE AT THE INTERSECTION, WATCHING THE STOP
27 SIGN, AND I WAS, LIKE, "OKAY, I'M HERE." AND TYPICALLY
r 28 OUR PROBLEMS -- WE'VE HAD MORE PROBLEMS IN THE SOUTHERN
r
587
l
l
1 HALF OF THE PARK THAN THE NORTHERN HALF, SO I CHECKED
2 THE SOUTHERN HALF OF THE PARK FIRST. l
3 Q. HOW DID YOU CHECK THE SOUTHERN HALF?
4 A. AS YOU DRIVE AROUND IT -- IT'S BEEN A LITTLE l
WHILE, SO I'M A LITTLE OFF ON THE STREETS, BUT IF YOU
5
6 CIRCLE THE PERIMETER OF THE PARK, YOU'RE PRETTY MUCH
1
7
8
ABOVE THE MAJORITY OF THE PARK. SO I DROVE AROUND THE
PARK AND HIT IT WITH MY SPOTLIGHT TO SEE IF THERE WAS
l
~
9 ANYTHING MOVING AROUND IN THE PARK. }
10 Q. SO YOU'RE IN A POLICE CAR?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. ARE YOU ALONE OR WITH A PARTNER?
13 A. I WAS BY MYSELF THAT NIGHT. l
14
15
Q. AS YOU CIRCLED THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THE
PARK, DID YOU SEE ANYBODY?
l
16 A. NOBODY. l )
17 Q. SO NOTHING -- SHORT OF THE DISTURBANCE, THERE

18 WAS NOBODY THERE? 1
19 A. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING MOVING, AND CERTAINLY NO
20 DISTURBANCE, NOT IN THE SOUTHERN HALF. l
21 Q. PRIOR TO CIRCLING THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THE
22 PARK, DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ENTERING THE NORTHERN PORTION
l
~
23 OF THE PARK?
j
24 A. NO.
25 Q. FROM THE LOCATION YOU WERE AT, COULD YOU HAVE 1 J
26 SEEN SOMEBODY ENTERING THAT PARK IF YOU WERE LOOKING?

27 A. FROM MY VANTAGE POINT STARING STRAIGHT AS I WAS l
28 ON 40TH FACING SOUTH TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW, I WOULD HAVE
l
l
r 588
r 1 HAD TO TURN AROUND. HAD I TURNED AROUND, I MIGHT HAVE.
r 2 Q. SO YOU WOULD BE FACING SOUTH AND THE PARK WOULD

3 BE OVER YOUR LEFT SHOULDER AND BEHIND YOU?
r 4 A. CORRECT.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AND UP?
YES.
r 7
8
Q. DID YOU SEE ANY CARS COMING UP AND DOWN THAT
ROAD ON 40TH AS YOU SAT THERE?
r 9 A. I CAN'T REMEMBER ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. AT THAT

10 TIME OF THE DAY, THERE'S A LOT OF TRAFFIC GOING BOTH
r 11 DIRECTIONS.
r 12
13
Q. NOW, LET'S MOVE BACK TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
DOES SHOW A PORTION OF OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD.
IT
r 14
15
WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN IN THIS SECTION OF THE
STREET RIGHT HERE ON 40TH?
r 16
17
A. RIGHT ABOUT WHERE THAT WHITE CAR IS WAS ABOUT
WHERE I WAS STOPPED, AND THEN I WAS FACING -- WATCHING
r 18 THE TRAFFIC LIGHT FOR VIOLATIONS.
r 19
20
Q. AND FOR THE RECORD, THE WHITE CAR YOU'RE
REFERRING TO IS THE ONE JUST SOUTH OF OCEAN VIEW --
r 21
22
EXCUSE ME JUST NORTH OF OCEAN VIEW ON PEOPLE'S
EXHIBIT 2, WITH A SILVER CAR TO THE LEFT AND A BLACK CAR
r 23
24
BEHIND IT?
A. CORRECT.
r 25 Q. THERE'S A PARKING LOT TO YOUR LEFT IN THE PARK
r 26
27
ITSELF, CORRECT, OFFICER?
A. CORRECT.
28 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY CARS PULL INTO THAT PARKING
r
r
589
1
l
1 LOT?
2 A. I DON'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. 1
3 Q. YOU'RE THERE LOOKING MORE FOR TRAFFIC
4 VIOLATIONS. 1
A. YES.
5
6 Q. AFTER YOU CIRCLED THE SOUTHERN PORTION, YOU

1
7
8
WOULD BE COMING BACK TOWARDS THE PARK, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
9 Q. DID ANYTHING HAPPEN AT THAT POINT? l
10 A. NOT QUITE AT THAT POINT. AS I CAME AROUND, I
11 BELIEVE THE STREET'S CALLED BOUNDARY -- IT'S BEEN A l
12 LITTLE WHILE SINCE I WORKED IT -- BUT AS I APPROACHED
13 BACK TO OCEAN VIEW, I WAITED TO TURN LEFT ON OCEAN VIEW, l
14
15
AND I PULLED BEHIND MY BEAT PARTNER OFFICER, SAMUEL
EULER, AND THEN THE TWO OF US DROVE IN TANDEM TO THE
1
16 NORTH HALF OF THE PARK.
l
17 Q. WOULD THIS BE TURNING RIGHT FROM OCEAN VIEW
18 ONTO 40TH? 1
19 A. YES. WE BOTH TURNED RIGHT TOGETHER.
20 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? 1
21 A. AS WE BOTH MADE THE TURN, I HEARD SIX, MAYBE
22 EIGHT GUNSHOTS PRETTY MUCH RIGHT ON TOP OF ME, BUT IT
1
23
24
WASN'T IN MY DIRECTION.
Q.
YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN RIGHT ON TOP OF YOU?
l
25 A. IT WAS CLOSE. YOU CAN TELL. A LOT OF TIMES l
26 WE'LL BE OUT ON TRAFFIC STOPS, PARTICULARLY IN
27 SOUTHEASTERN. YOU'LL HEAR GUNSHOTS, AND YOU CAN TELL l
28 IT'S GOING TO BE A COUPLE OF BLOCKS AWAY. YOU COULD
l
l
r 590
r 1 TELL THIS WAS CLOSE, REAL CLOSE.

rI 2 Q. WHERE ON 40TH WERE YOU WHEN YOU HEARD THESE
r
3 GUNSHOTS?
4 A. I WAS ON -- I WAS IN PROGRESS OF TURNING RIGHT
5 ONTO 40TH.
r 6 Q. SO RIGHT THERE AT THE CORNER BY THE PARKING
r 7
8
LOT?
A. RIGHT AT THE CORNER.
r 9 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
r 10
11
A. WE PICKED UP OUR SPEED A LITTLE BIT.
NORTH ON OCEAN VIEW.
WE DROVE
AND THEN WE STILL HADN'T SEEN
12 ANYBODY AT THAT POINT THROUGH THE PARK, AND THEN TURNED
r 13 RIGHT ON I BELIEVE IT'S FRANKLIN.
r 14
15
AND AS WE TURNED RIGHT ON FRANKLIN, WE STOPPED,
AND THAT WAS THE MOST LIKELY SPOT THAT WE THOUGHT WE'D
r 16
17
HEARD IT, BECAUSE WE HADN'T SEEN ANYTHING IN THE
SOUTHERN HALF OF THE NORTHERN PART OF THE PARK.
r 18 Q. I KNOW YOU SAID THAT YOU SAW NOBODY AS YOU
19 TURNED ON 40TH.
r 20 DID YOU SEE ANY CARS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY LEAVING FRANKLIN OR THE
r 23
24
PARK?
A. I DID NOT.
r 25 Q. WOULD YOU HAVE SEEN SOMEBODY IF THEY WERE

RUNNING ACROSS THE STREET?
r
26
27 A. YOU'D SEE THEM RUNNING ACROSS FRANKLIN,
28 CERTAINLY.
[
r
1
591
,
!
1 Q. WHEN YOU TURNED ONTO FRANKLIN, WHAT HAPPENED

2 NEXT? l
3 A. OFFICER EULER WAS ABOUT 15 YARDS AHEAD OF ME,
4 AND HE YELLED BACK TO ME THAT HE HAD AN UNKNOWN NUMBER l
5 OF MALES THAT WERE RABBITING SOUTHBOUND THROUGH THE
6 PARK.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO RABBIT?
RUNNING WITH A PURPOSE.
1
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY. MOTION l
10 TO STRIKE.
11 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 1
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU HEARD OFFICER WEAVER 1
14
15
SAY THIS
A.
EXCUSE ME -- OFFICER EULER SAY THIS?
WE BOTH RAN THROUGH THE PARK, AND THAT WAS WHEN
1
l
16
17
18
19
I SAW THE INDIVIDUAL LYING DOWN ON THE GROUND.
Q. SO THE DIRECTION YOU'RE TAKING WOULD BE FROM
FRANKLIN SOUTH TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW?
A. YES.
,
20 Q. WHAT PART OF THE PARK DID YOU ENTER? 1
21 A. WE CAME IN THROUGH THE NORTHERNMOST PART OF THE
l
22
23
24
PARK.
Q. NOW, THIS PARK IS BOUNDARIED BY 40TH ON THE
WEST AND A DIRT ALLEY ON THE EAST; IS THAT CORRECT?
,
l
25
26
27
28
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WERE YOU CLOSER TO 40TH, THE DIRT, OR WERE YOU
IN THE MIDDLE?
A. WE WERE CLOSER TO THE DIRT ALLEY ON FRANKLIN.
,
l
1
r 592
r 1 Q. AND DID YOU EVER SEE THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE
r 2
3
RABBITING?
A. I SAW SHADOWY FIGURES, AND WE'RE TALKING A
r 4 DISTANCE OF 200 YARDS.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT DIRECTION WERE THEY RUNNING?
SOUTH TO SOUTHEASTERN.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD?
YES. THERE WERE A LARGE NUMBER AND THEY WENT
F 9 VARIOUS DIRECTIONS.
[
10 Q. AND THIS WAS ABOUT 200 YARDS AWAY FROM YOU?
r 11 A. APPROXIMATELY. IT WAS DARK.
r 13 A. I RAN UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL THAT WAS LYING DOWN
r 14
15
ON THE GROUND AND ASKED HIS NAME, ASKED WHERE HE WAS
SHOT. I COULD SEE HE HAD WOUNDS IN HIS LEGS. I DIDN'T
r 16
17
KNOW HE HAD ANY OTHER INJURIES, CERTAINLY NOT TO THE
EXTENT THAT WE WOULD FIND OUT LATER. I WAS ASKING HIS
r 18 NAME, AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, I WAS ASKING WHO SHOT HIM.
r 19
20
Q. WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED AT THE PARK DOWN BY THE
STREET, COULD YOU SEE THIS PERSON WHO WAS LYING ON THE
r 21
22
GROUND?
A. I'M SORRY. COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION?
r 23
24
Q. SURE. WHEN YOU FIRST GOT ON FRANKLIN, GOT OUT
OF YOUR CAR AND MOVED TOWARDS THE PARK, COULD YOU SEE
r 25 THIS PERSON IN THE PARK?

26 A. INITIALLY WHEN I GOT OUT OF MY CAR, NO, BECAUSE
r 27 YOU HAD TO CLIMB UP A SLIGHT HILL THAT WOULD HAVE
28 SHIELDED HIM FROM VIEW FROM MY CAR. AS SOON AS YOU CAME
[
r
593
,
l
1 UP TO THE CREST OF THE HILL, IT WAS OBVIOUS THERE WAS A
2 BODY DOWN.
3 Q. WHY DID YOU CONTACT THIS PERSON LYING ON THE
4 GROUND AS OPPOSED TO RUNNING AFTER PEOPLE WHO WERE l
5 FLEEING?
6 A. WELL, ONE, HE WAS CLOSER, AND, TWO, THERE WAS
1
7
8
NO WAY I WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO CATCH THE INDIVIDUALS,
NOT WITH THE HEAD START THAT THEY HAD, SO WE WERE
l
9 RADIOING TO OTHER UNITS THAT IT WAS A VALID ASSAULT
10 CRIME AND THE LOCATIONS THAT THEY WERE HEADED, AND THEN
11 I KNEW OTHER OFFICERS WOULD BE THERE PRETTY QUICK. 1
12 Q. NOW, YOU SAID THIS PERSON HAD INJURIES TO HIS
13 LEGS. 1
14
15 A.
WHAT INDICATED TO YOU HE HAD LEG INJURIES?
THERE WAS A BULLET WOUND IN ONE OF HIS LEGS,
1
l
,
16 AND THEN I THOUGHT I HAD SEEN A SECOND SOMEWHERE ON HIS
17 LOWER TORSO.
18 Q. IN YOUR TIME AS A POLICE OFFICER, HAVE YOU SEEN
19 PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED GUNSHOT WOUNDS?
20 A. NUMEROUS. 1
21 Q. WHAT ABOUT THIS PERSON INDICATED TO YOU HE HAD
l
22
23
24
A GUNSHOT WOUND?
A. IT WAS A RECENT WOUND.
OR BLOOD WAS OOZING OUT OF THE HOLE.
IT WAS BLEEDING FROM --
IT'S A HOLE IN THE
,
25 LEG THAT WAS PRECEDED BY GUNSHOTS. I DON'T THINK THE l
26 ASSUMPTION OF A WOUND IS UNREASONABLE.
27 Q. THIS PERSON WHO WAS LYING ON THE GROUND, COULD 1
28 YOU DESCRIBE HIM FOR THE JURY.
l
l
r 594
r 1 A. HISPANIC MALE WHO LOOKED YOUNG.
r 2 Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN CONTACTING HIM?
r 3 A. TRYING TO GET INFORMATION FROM HIM,

4 PARTICULARLY WHO SHOT HIM; HIS NAME, IF I COULD GET IT.
r 5
6
I DIDN'T GET ANY ANSWERS FROM HIM.
Q. HOW WERE YOU ATTEMPTING TO GET THIS INFORMATION
r 7
8
FROM HIM?
A. I RAN UP TO HIM, HIT HIM ON THE SHOULDER AND
r 9
10
SAID, "WHO SHOT YOU?"
Q. WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE, IF ANY?

r 11 A. I DIDN'T GET ONE. HE MADE KIND OF A GURGLING
12 SOUND, I SUPPOSE.
r. 13 Q. WHAT WAS HIS CONDITION?
r 14
15
A. SEMICONSCIOUS. HE WAS STILL ALIVE, HE WAS
STILL BREATHING, BUT HE WASN'T MAKING ANY INTELLIGIBLE
r 16
17
SOUNDS.
Q. DID HE APPEAR TO BE IN PAIN?
r 18 A. I SUPPOSE. HE DEFINITELY SEEMED TO BE IN PAIN.
r 19
20
I DON'T KNOW A BETTER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT. HE WASN'T
GIVING ME ANY KIND OF INTELLIGENT SOUND COMING FROM HIM.
r 21
22
Q. OFFICER, WHAT ELSE -- HOW LONG DID YOU STAY
WITH THIS YOUNG PERSON?
r 23
24
A. A COUPLE OF SECONDS. ONCE I REALIZED THAT I
WASN'T GOING TO GET ANY INFORMATION OUT OF HIM AND I
r 25 WASN'T GOING TO DO MUCH GOOD MEDICALLY, I RAN PAST HIM
r 26
27
28
TO SECURE THE PARK.
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT SECURING THE PARK?
THERE WAS A VEHICLE THAT WAS PARKED IN THE
L
595
l
1 ALLEY TO THE LEFT, MADE SURE THERE WASN'T ANYBODY INSIDE
l
2 THE CAB OF THE VEHICLE, AND THEN RAN DOWN THE ALLEY TO l
3 CHECK TO MAKE SURE THERE WASN'T ANYBODY HIDING IN THE
4 SHADOWS OF THE PARK. 1
5 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
6 A. WHEN I WAS DONE, COMING BACK UP, WE ALREADY HAD
l
7 PARAMEDICS AND ABOUT A DOZEN OFFICERS ON SCENE, AND
1
8 PARAMEDICS HAD STARTED CPR ON THE VICTIM.
,
9
10
11
Q.
A.
DID YOU ASSIST AT SOME POINT IN DOING A SEARCH
OF THE PARK?
A SEARCH OF THE PARK, NO. AT THAT POINT, SINCE
, J
12 WE HAD SEEN THE SUSPECTS, MYSELF AND OFFICER EULER WERE

l
13
14
15
DETAINED FOR HOMICIDE.
Q. DID YOU LOCATE ANY ITEMS OF INTEREST IN THE
PARK DURING YOUR TIME THERE?
,
A. THERE WERE NUMEROUS ARTICLES OF CLOTHING THAT
l
,
16
17 WERE KIND OF A NORTH-BY-NORTHWEST LOCATION OF THE

18
19
VICTIM, MAYBE 15, 20 YARDS, OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD,
VARIOUS ARTICLES OF CLOTHING. AND AT THE TIME WE DIDN'T
,
J
20
21
22
KNOW IF IT BELONGED TO THE VICTIM OR SUSPECTS.
REALLY DIDN'T MATTER AT THAT POINT.
Q. THIS VEHICLE THAT YOU FOUND NEAR THE PARK,
IT
,
J
23
24
WHERE NEAR THE PARK DID YOU FIND IT?
A. IT WAS IN THE EAST ALLEY OF THE PARK, ABOUT
l
25 MID-BLOCK. l
26 Q. FOCUSING BACK ONTO PEOPLE'S 2, IS THERE ANY
27 LANDMARKS IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH THAT WOULD ASSIST US IN l
28 SHOWING WHERE THAT CAR WAS?
l
r 596
r 1 A. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, THAT LONG LINE OF
r 2 SHRUBS -- I GUESS THAT WOULD BE TREES -- TOWARDS THE
r
3 LOWER HALF OF THE CENTER HALF OF THE PARK.
4 Q. WOULD THAT BE THIS AREA?
r 5
6
A. YEAH, IT WAS ROUGHLY IN THAT AREA.
MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, THE OFFICER
r 7
8
IDENTIFIED THE CLUMP OF TREES NEAR WHAT HAS PREVIOUSLY
BEEN IDENTIFIED AS PICNIC BENCHES.
r 9 THE COURT: YES, SO REFLECT.
r 10
11
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WHAT ABOUT THIS CAR DREW YOUR ATTENTION TO IT?
r 12
13
A. THE HEADLIGHTS WERE ON AND I THINK THERE WAS A
DOOR THAT WAS OPEN.
r 14
15
Q. AND YOU SAID YOU ATTEMPTED TO SEE IF THERE WAS
ANYONE INSIDE?
r 16
17
A. WELL, I LOOKED INSIDE THE CAB OF THE CAR, THE
INSIDE OF THE CAR AND NOT THE TRUNK, JUST THE INSIDE OF
r 18 THE CAR.
r 19
20
Q. WAS THERE ANYBODY IN THE INTERIOR OF THE
PASSENGER PORTION OF THE CAR?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
HOW LONG WERE YOU NEAR THIS CAR?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
SECONDS.
DID YOU HEAR ANY SCREAMS COMING FROM THE TRUNK
r 25
26
AREA?
A. NO.
r 27 Q. ANY BANGING OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
r 28 A. NO.
r
597
l
l
1 Q. IN THE AREA OF THAT CAR AND THOSE TREES, DID
2 YOU FIND ANY BEER CONTAINERS OR LIQUOR CONTAINERS? l
3 A. YEAH, I BELIEVE THERE WAS A CASE OF BEER THAT
4 WAS ON THE GRASS A COUPLE YARDS WEST OF THE CAR. l
Q. WOULD THIS BE IN THE PARK?
5
6 A. YES.
l
~
7 Q. AS OPPOSED TO THE ALLEY?
J
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DID YOU TOUCH THIS ITEM? l
10 A. NO.
11 Q. DID YOU LOOK AT THIS ITEM? 1
12 A. LOOKED AT IT, YES.
13 Q. DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING ABOUT ITS CONDITION? l
14
15
A.
HEAD.
I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING OFF THE TOP OF MY
l
16
17
18
Q.
OFFICER?
A.
DID YOU TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS THAT EVENING,
PHOTOGRAPH, NO.
,
1
j
19 MR. TROCHA: ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR.

20 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 1
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
23
24
Q. START OFF WITH PEOPLE'S 21.
LOOK AT THAT TO YOURSELF.
SIR, IF YOU COULD
1
25 THE COURT: HAS THAT EXHIBIT BEEN PREVIOUSLY 1
26 MARKED AND DESCRIBED?
27 MR. TROCHA: IT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED, BUT l
28 IT HAD NOT BEEN DESCRIBED YET.
l
l
r 598
r 2 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR,
r 3 PEOPLE'S 21 IS A PICTURE OF THE PARK, THE VEHICLE THE
4 OFFICER HAS DESCRIBED, AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE A CASE OF
r 5
6
BUDWEISER. IT'S COMING UP ON THE TV RIGHT NOW.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 21, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, CAR
c 7
8
AND BEER, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9 Q. OFFICER, LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 21, IS THAT THE

10 BEER YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. CAN WE SEE THE CAR WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT
IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH AS WELL?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
IT'S TO THE LEFT OF THE BEER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU MOVE THAT BEER FROM THAT LOCATION?
r 18 A. CERTAINLY NOT.
19 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
r 20 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,
r 21
22
LET'S TAKE THE MID-MORNING RECESS RIGHT NOW.
CROSS-EXAMINATION MAY TAKE A BIT OF TIME. WITH
r 23
24
APOLOGIES FOR THE SCHEDULING, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE SOME
LEGAL ISSUES THAT THROUGH NO FAULT OF COUNSEL HAVE JUST
r 25
26
CROPPED UP THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS, THIS RECESS WILL BE
HALF AN HOUR. I'LL ASK THAT YOU REPORT OUTSIDE THIS
r 27 COURTROOM AT 11:00.
r 28 PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
r
599
l
l
1
2
CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
ARE IN RECESS.
THANK YOU. WE
,
J

4 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN l
5
6
THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING, MA'AM.
1
7
8
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING.
MAY I ASK THAT YOU STEP UP HERE ON
l
9 THE STEP, FACE THE CLERK AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND SO 1
J
10 YOU MAY PROMISE TO TELL THE TRUTH. WE ARE IN SESSION.

13 TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH?
l
14
15
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
YES.
1
l
17 THE WITNESS: GLENNYS, G-L-E-N-N-Y-S, AND MY
18 LAST NAME IS BERUMEN, B-E-R-U-M-E-N. l
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU. HAVE A SEAT AT THE
20 TABLE HERE. l
21 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD MORNING. WE ARE
l
22
23
24
HERE TO CONDUCT THE HEARING THAT WAS CONTEMPLATED IN
CONNECTION WITH THE IN LIMINE MOTIONS REGARDING GLENNYS
BERUMEN. THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE BASIS OF KNOWLEDGE OF
,
25 THE HEARSAY DECLARANT, JOSUE GUTIERREZ, WHO TESTIFIED 1
26 EARLIER AND MADE CERTAIN STATEMENTS.
27 WE ALSO THEN WILL NEED AT SOME POINT TO ADDRESS l
28 THE RECENTLY OCCURRING ISSUE REGARDING POSSIBLE THREATS
l
l
r 600
r 1 INDICATED TO MS. BERUMEN.
r 2
3
MR. TROCHA, WHAT I'D INVITE YOU TO DO IS TO
EXAMINE MS. BERUMEN WITH RESPECT TO THE LIMITED ISSUE OF
r 4 THE BASIS OF KNOWLEDGE OF THE HEARSAY DECLARANT,
r 5
6
MR. GUTIERREZ. THIS IS A PREREQUISITE TO THE
ADMISSIBILITY OF HER TESTIMONY UNDER SECTION 1235.
L 7
8
I'LL ALLOW CROSS-EXAMINATION ON THAT ISSUE.
I'M NOT GOING TO JUST HEAR ALL OF HER TESTIMONY NOW AS A
r 9
10
PREVIEW. WE'RE NOT TALKING A PREVIEW HERE, WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT A LIMITED PRELIMINARY FACT-FINDING. AND
r 11 YOU MAY ALSO EXAMINE HER REGARDING THE THREATS, AND I'LL
r 12
13
ALLOW REASONABLE CROSS AS TO THAT.
r 14
15
GLENNYS BERUMEN,
r 16
17
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r
( 18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. BERUMEN.
r 21
22
Q.
LOPEZ?
DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF MOISES
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO IS MOISES LOPEZ?
r 25 A. MOISES LOPEZ WAS A FRIEND OF MINE.
r
26 Q. DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL WITH HIM AT POINT LOMA
27 HIGH?
r 28 A. YES, I DID.
r
601
l
1 Q. DID YOU EVER DATE HIM?
1
2 A. YES, I DID. l
3 Q. WAS THIS PRIOR TO HIS DEATH IN 2008?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. DID YOU KNOW ANY OF HIS FRIENDS?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHO WERE HIS CLOSEST FRIENDS?
ISMAEL ACEVES, JOSUE, RAUL. THOSE WERE THE
1
9 THREE MAIN GUYS THAT HE WOULD HANG OUT WITH. l
10 Q. JOSUE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, DO YOU KNOW HIS LAST
11 NAME? l
12 A. I DON'T REMEMBER HIS LAST NAME.
l
13
14
15
Q.
A.
Q.
DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAD ANY NICKNAMES?
SCRAPPY.
SCRAPPY LIKE THE DOG FROM SCOOBY-DOO?
,
l
,
16 A. YES.
17 Q. HAD YOU MET WHEN DID YOU MEET JOSUE?
18 A. I MET JOSUE IN POINT LOMA IN 2008. J
19 Q. HOW LONG DID YOU KNOW HIM BEFORE MOISES'S

20 DEATH? l
21 A. A YEAR BEFORE.
l
22
23
24
Q. SHORTLY AFTER MOISES'S DEATH, DID JOSUE TALK TO
YOU ABOUT HIS DEATH?
A. YES, HE DID.
,
25 Q. WHEN DID THIS OCCUR IN RELATION TO THE DAY 1
26 MOISES WAS KILLED?
27 A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN? l
28 Q. SURE. DO YOU KNOW THE DAY MOISES DIED?
l
l
r 602
r 1 A. YES.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT HIS DEATH?
I WAS IN SCHOOL AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE

r 4 TALKING ABOUT IT, THAT THEY HAD KILLED HIM.
r 5
6 DEATH?
Q. DID JOSUE TALK TO YOU AT SOME POINT AFTER HIS
c 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY DAYS, WEEKS OR MONTHS DID HE TALK TO
r 9 YOU?
r 10
11
THE COURT:
DID JOSUE TALK TO YOU?
HOW LONG AFTER MOISES WAS KILLED
12
r 13
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 14
15
Q. WAS IT A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME OR A LONG PERIOD
OF TIME AFTER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
WAS MOISES'S DEATH STILL FRESH IN YOUR MIND?
r 18
19
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE DID THIS CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE?

r 20 A. IN OCEAN VIEW PARK.
r 21
22 A.
Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING IN OCEAN VIEW PARK?
I WAS WALKING TOWARDS MY AUNT'S HOUSE.

~
23 Q. HOW DID YOU COME INTO CONTACT WITH JOSUE?
l
24 A. JOSUE SAW ME WHEN I WAS WALKING, HE STOPPED ME,
r 25
26
AND THAT'S -- I SAW HIM BY THE BENCHES. HE WAS WITH
SOME GIRL THAT THEY CALLED ROWDY, AND THAT'S WHEN HE
r 27 STOPPED ME AND HE KEPT ON -- HE STOPPED ME AND HE TOLD
r 28 ME HE SAW WHEN SPEEDY KILLED MOISES.
r
t
603
l
l
1 Q. NOW, THIS CONVERSATION -- WE DON'T WANT TO GET
2 INTO THE DETAILS OF IT AT THIS POINT -- WAS IT ABOUT HOW l
3 MOISES WAS KILLED?
4 A. YES. l
Q. DID JOSUE TELL YOU HOW HE CAME ABOUT -- HOW HE
5
6 GAINED THE KNOWLEDGE OF HOW HE DIED?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DID HE GAIN THIS KNOWLEDGE?
l
9 A. HE WAS THERE WHEN THEY KILLED HIM. l
10 Q. AS YOU'RE TALKING TO JOSUE, DID HE EVER DENY
11 BEING THERE? l
12 A. NO.
13 Q. DID HE EVER SAY HE HEARD THIS INFORMATION FROM
l
l
,
14 PEOPLE ON THE STREET?
15 A. NO.
16
17
18
SOURCE?
Q.
A.
DID HE EVER SAY HE HEARD IT FROM SOME OTHER
NO.
, j
19 Q. WAS IT CLEAR TO YOU THAT HE WAS THERE AND

20 WITNESSED THIS WITH HIS OWN EYES? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. YES?
l
23
24
A. YES.
MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, DO YOU WANT ME TO GET
l
25 INTO THE THREATS PORTION AT THIS POINT OR TAKE A BREAK j
26 FOR CROSS?
27 THE COURT: LET'S DO CROSS ON THIS ISSUE RIGHT l
28 NOW.
l
l
r 604
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU.
r 2
3 AUDIO.
YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO PLAY A SHORT BIT OF
I HAVE AN EXHIBIT AND TRANSCRIPT IF YOU WOULD
r 4 LIKE THEM.
5 THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT IS IT OF, PLEASE?
r~
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S AN INTERVIEW WITH
r 7
8
MS. BERUMEN AND DETECTIVES BACK ON SEPTEMBER 8, 2010.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. THIS WILL
r 9
10
BE EXHIBIT NEXT IN ORDER.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE
r 11 IN ORDER.
r 12
13
THE COURT: WELL, NEXT NUMBER. IT DOESN'T HAVE
TO BE IN ORDER FROM THE ONES YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT IF
r 14
15
YOU'VE MARKED ONES AHEAD OF THAT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
WHAT IS IT MARKED?
THE TRANSCRIPT IS GOING TO
r 16
17
BE EXHIBIT JJ AND THE TAPE IS EXHIBIT KK.
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT JJ, TRANSCRIPT, AND KK,
r 18 AUDIO RECORDING, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
YES, YOU MAY.
21
r 22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
YOU WOULD LIKE TO FOLLOW ALONG.
THIS IS THE TRANSCRIPT, IF
r 23
24
THE COURT: YES, I WOULD.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND I'LL PUT THE AUDIO ON
r 25 THE TABLE.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT
26
r 27 WE HAVE MARKED EXHIBIT KK AND EXHIBIT JJ AS DESCRIBED BY
28 COUNSEL. IT PURPORTS TO BE AN AUDIO RECORDING AND
r
r
'l
605
l
1 TRANSCRIPT THEREOF OF AN INTERVIEW WITH MS. GLENNYS
2 BERUMEN, SEPTEMBER 8, 2010, WITH DETECTIVE MIKE LAMBERT l
3 AND DETECTIVE DEE, D-E-E, WARICK, W-A-R-I-C-K.
4 WHAT PORTION DO YOU INTEND TO PLAY? l
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, PAGE 14 -- NO.
6 SORRY -- PAGE 8, AND IT WILL BE LINES 14 AND 15. IT'S
l
7
8
VERY SHORT.
THE COURT: YES, THANK YOU. YOU MAY.
l
9 PURSUANT TO LOCAL COURT RULE, THE TRANSCRIPT l
10 AND THE CD WILL BE THE EVIDENCE OF THE CONVERSATION. IT
11 DOES NOT NEED TO BE REPORTED. l
14
15
Q.
FOR YOU.
MS. BERUMEN, I'M GOING TO PLAY AN AUDIOTAPE
OKAY? AND I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO IT. ALL
l
16 RIGHT?
l
17 A. YES.
18 {AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.) l
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT
20 THAT WE HAVE HEARD LINES 14 THROUGH THE FIRST WORD OF l
21 LINE 17 ON PAGE 8 OF EXHIBIT JJ, THAT'S THE TRANSCRIPT,
22 PLAYED FROM EXHIBIT KK.
l
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
MAY I INQUIRE, YOUR HONOR?
YOU MAY.
l
26 Q. MS. BERUMEN, DID YOU JUST HEAR WHAT THAT WAS?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. THAT WAS AN INTERVIEW THAT YOU DID ON SEPTEMBER
l
l
r 606
r 1 8, 2010?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. WHAT YOU JUST HEARD IS YOU STATING THAT JOSUE
WAS GIVING YOU INFORMATION BASED ON WHAT HE HEARD,
r 5
6
CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER STATING THAT?
YES.
r 9
10
Q. THAT WAS YOUR RECOLLECTION OF HOW THIS
CONVERSATION WENT DOWN AT THAT POINT, CORRECT?
r 11 A. CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q. AND THEN ON -- IT WAS FEBRUARY 28TH OF THIS
YEAR, 2011, YOU WERE VISITED BY THIS GENTLEMAN IN THE
r 14
15
SUIT HERE, SITTING AT PROSECUTOR'S TABLE, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AND IS THAT INVESTIGATOR NAVA BEHIND YOU?
NO.
r 18 Q. NO? BUT ANOTHER GENTLEMAN, INVESTIGATOR NAVA,
r
19 INTERVIEWED YOU, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
RIGHT?
AND AT THAT POINT YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY,
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU CHANGED IT TO, NO, IT WAS BASED ON WHAT HE
r 25
26
HAD SEEN, NOT HEARD.
A. YES.
r 27 Q. WHY DID YOU CHANGE YOUR STORY?
28 A. I WAS NERVOUS AT THE TIME WHEN THEY ASKED ME AT

r-
r
607
1
l
1 THE BEGINNING. BUT JOSUE ACTUALLY TOLD ME HE WAS THERE.
2 Q. NOW, AT THE TIME YOU GAVE THIS INTERVIEW ON l
3 SEPTEMBER 8TH, DID YOU KNOW THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT
4 FACT? l
A. NO.
5
6 Q. SO WHY WOULD BEING NERVOUS MAKE YOU CHANGE THAT

l
7
8
FACT WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE?
A. WHY WAS I NERVOUS?
l
9 Q. NO. WHY WOULD BEING NERVOUS MAKE YOU LIE TO l
10 POLICE ABOUT THAT FACT?
11 A. I DIDN'T LIE. I WAS NERVOUS. l
12 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT JOSUE SAID TO YOU?
13 A. YES. 1
14
15
Q.
A.
DID HE EVER SAY HE WAS THERE?
YES.
l
16
17
Q. BUT YOU TOLD THE POLICE OFFICERS ON SEPTEMBER
8TH, WHEN YOU WERE FIRST INTERVIEWED, THAT HE TOLD YOU
1
18 HE WASN'T THERE, RIGHT? l
19 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. THAT'S NOT WHAT IT
20 STATED IN THE TRANSCRIPT, YOUR HONOR. 1
21 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT'S NOT WHAT IT SAYS.
l
23
24
Q. YOU TOLD THEM THAT THE INFORMATION THAT YOU GOT
FROM MR. GUTIERREZ WAS IT WAS BASED ON WHAT HE HAD
l
25 HEARD, RIGHT? l
26 A. THAT'S WHAT I SAID AT THE BEGINNING.
27 Q. AND AT THAT POINT YOU HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE l
28 SIGNIFICANCE WAS AGAIN, RIGHT, OF THAT FACT?
l
l
r 608
r 1 A. RIGHT.
r 2 Q. BUT YOU DECIDED TO LIE ABOUT IT ANYWAY.
r
3 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
FURTHER QUESTIONING ON THAT
r 7
8
SUBJECT?
MR. TROCHA: YES, YOUR HONOR. I DRAW THE
r 9 COURT'S ATTENTION TO LINES 18 AND 19 OF THE SAME
r 10
11
INTERVIEW, YOUR HONOR.
r 12
13
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DID YOU ALSO TELL THE DETECTIVES THAT FROM
r 14
15
THE INFORMATION HE WAS TELLING YOU, IT WAS CLEAR THAT HE
WAS THERE AND DID WITNESS THIS?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T GET THAT.
SURE. SHOWING YOU PAGE 8 OF THE TRANSCRIPT,
r 18 LINES 17 THROUGH 19, COULD YOU READ THOSE TO YOURSELF.
r 19
20
MS. BERUMEN, THAT WAS DIRECTLY AFTER THE
PORTION THAT WE JUST HEARD ON THE TAPE, CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
(NODS HEAD.)
AND YOU STATED CLEARLY IT WAS -- "WELL, IT KIND
r[ 25 OF SOUNDED LIKE BECAUSE HE SAID HE KNEW THE ONE DRIVING
26 WAS SIRIA, RIGHT?
r 27 A. CIDIA.
r 28 Q. SIRIA, S-I-R-I-A?
r
609
1
l
1 A. CIDIA, WITH A D.
2 THE COURT: HOW DO YOU SPELL IT, MA'AM? 1
3 THE WITNESS: C-I-D-I-A.
4 THE COURT: C-I-Z-I-A? 1
5 THE WITNESS: NO. C-I-D-I-A.
6 THE COURT: CIDIA. THANK YOU.
l
7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO YOU TOLD THE DETECTIVES AT THIS TIME JOSUE
l
9 WAS THERE. l
10 A. JOSUE WAS THERE.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE 1
12 THE COURT: SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. SUSTAINED.
13 BY MR. TROCHA: l
14
15
Q. DID YOU ALSO TALK DURING THIS INTERVIEW WITH
THE DETECTIVES ABOUT A VICTOR RAMOS?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. AND VICTOR RAMOS IS ANOTHER PERSON WHO TOLD YOU
18 INFORMATION ABOUT THIS CASE, CORRECT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND VICTOR RAMOS SPECIFICALLY SAID HE WASN'T l
21 THERE, BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE TRUNK OF A CAR; IS THAT
22 CORRECT?
l
23 A. CORRECT. HE WAS IN CIDIA'A (SIC) TRUCK.
1
24
25
Q. AND THE ONLY WAY HE KNEW ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IS
PEOPLE TOLD HIM WHAT HAPPENED.
,
1
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND HE RELATED THAT TO YOU. l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 610
r 1 Q. IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT JOSUE WAS TELLING
r 2 YOU?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
IS THAT A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION ALTOGETHER,
r 5
6
THOUGH?
A. OH, YES, IT WAS.
r 7
8
Q. BUT IN TERMS OF JOSUE AND YOUR TALKING WITH
HIM, HIS INFORMATION CAME FROM HIS OWN OBSERVATIONS.
r 9 A. YES.

r
10
11 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. FURTHER CROSS ON THESE
r 12
13
ISSUES?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BRIEFLY.
r 14
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
r 16
17
Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU STATED TO THE DETECTIVES
THAT IT SOUNDED LIKE HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE, RIGHT?
r 18 A. RIGHT.
r 19
20
Q. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU TO
SAY, "ACTUALLY, HE TOLD ME HE WAS THERE," RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
HOW COME YOU DIDN'T?
r 23
24
A. I DON'T KNOW.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER.
r 25
26 DIRECT?
THE COURT: ON THE ISSUE OF THE THREATS,
r 27 MR. TROCHA: YES.
r 28 Ill
r
l
611
., ]
1 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF ANGELINA
4 CAMPOS? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHO IS ANGELINA CAMPOS?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
ANGELINA CAMPOS WAS ONE OF MY CLOSEST FRIENDS.
YOU HAVE A HISTORY WITH HER?
l
9 A. LIKE -- HISTORY? l
10 Q. SURE. YOU KNEW HER BEFORE LAST WEEK?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. HOW LONG DID YOU KNOW HER?
13 A. I KNOWN HER SINCE I WAS PROBABLY NINE YEARS l
14
15
OLD.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANGELINA CAMPOS IS A MEMBER OF A
1
l
,
16 GANG CALLED SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IS SHE A MEMBER?
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. FOUNDATION.
l
20
21
22
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
SHE CLAIMS SHELLTOWN. ,
23
24
Q.
A.
DOES SHE HAVE A NICKNAME?
CLARA.
l
25 Q. THAT'S C-L-A-R-A? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DO YOU HAVE A BROTHER? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
612
r 1 Q. DO YOU HAVE A BROTHER NAMED HUMBERTO?

r
L 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
IS THAT H-U-M-B-E-R-T-0?
YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WAS HUMBERTO A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS HIS NICKNAME AT THE TIME?
RIDER.
r 9 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOUR BROTHER KNOWS ANGELINA
r 10
11
CAMPOS?
A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
THAT HE DOES?
YES, HE DOES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
DO THEY GO TO SCHOOL TOGETHER?
YES, THEY DO.
r 16
17
Q. LAST WEEK, DID YOUR BROTHER CONVEY OR TELL YOU
ABOUT A CONVERSATION HE HAD WITH ANGELINA CAMPOS?
r 18 A. YES, HE DID.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS THE TOPIC OF THIS CONVERSATION?
SHE DIDN'T WANT ME TO SHOW UP TO COURT, BECAUSE
r 21
22
I WAS BEING A SNITCH, AND BECAUSE JOSUE SENT ANGELINA
CAMPOS TO TELL MY BROTHER TO LET ME KNOW THAT I
r 23
24
SHOULDN'T SHOW UP TO COURT AND SAY ANYTHING THAT HE TOLD
ME.
r 25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
r 28 Q. YOU NEVER HAD THE CONVERSATION DIRECTLY WITH
r
613
l
l
1 ANGELINA; IS THAT CORRECT?
2 A. THAT'S CORRECT. l
3 Q. IT WAS YOUR BROTHER WHO HAD THE CONVERSATION
4 WITH HER DIRECTLY?
l
5 A. YES.
l
6
7
Q. DID YOUR BROTHER TELL YOU -- HOW SOON DID YOUR
BROTHER TELL YOU ABOUT THIS THREAT?
, l
8 A. THE SAME DAY.
9 Q. IN TALKING WITH YOUR BROTHER, DID ANGELINA SAY l
10 ANYTHING ALONG THE LINES OF, TO YOUR BROTHER, "I WANT
~
j
11
12
YOU TO TELL GLENNYS THIS"?
A. HE TOLD -- ANGELINA CAMPOS TOLD MY BROTHER THAT , J
J
13 I HAD TO WATCH MY BACK BECAUSE HER AND JOSUE WERE GOING
14
15
TO GET ME IF I CAME TO COURT, AND IF THEY SAW ME HERE IN
COURT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BEAT ME UP OUTSIDE OF
l
16 COURT.
17 Q. HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?
18 A. UNCOMFORTABLE, AND IT MADE ME FEEL LIKE IF SHE l
19 WAS THREATENING ME.
20 Q. DID YOU FEEL THREATENED? l
21 A. YES, I DID.
22 Q. DO YOU THINK THESE THREATS ARE REAL?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU THINK SHE WOULD CARRY THEM OUT IF SHE
l
25 HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. HOW DOES IT AFFECT YOU AS TO YOUR ABILITY TO BE l
28 A WITNESS AND TESTIFY IN COURT?
l
l
r 614
r 1 A. I DIDN'T GET THAT.

r 2 Q. SURE. ARE YOU SCARED BECAUSE YOU'RE A WITNESS?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU WANT TO TESTIFY IN COURT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
WHY?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I WANT JUSTICE.
NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO TESTIFY?
r 9 A. NOBODY IS FORCING ME.
r 10
11
Q. DESPITE THESE THREATS, DO YOU STILL INTEND ON
TESTIFYING?
r 12
13
A. YES.
r 14
15
r 16
17
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 19
20
Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU NEVER WERE PERSONALLY
THREATENED -- I MEAN IN PERSON -- RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NOT IN PERSON.
THIS WAS -- AGAIN, SOMEBODY WAS TELLING YOU
r 23
24
SOMETHING?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. AND THIS PERSON WAS YOUR BROTHER?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
AND HE TOLD YOU THAT SOMEBODY THREATENED YOU?
r 28 A. YES.
r
615
1 Q. AND YOU BELIEVE HIM?

2 A. YES, I DO.
3 Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU SAID THAT YOU WANT TO TESTIFY
4 IN THIS CASE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHEN YOU FIRST CONTACTED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT,
7 MR. DOMINGUEZ -- HE HAD ALREADY BEEN ARRESTED TO YOUR
8 KNOWLEDGE, RIGHT?
~
9 A. YES. II
10 Q. HE HAD ALREADY BEEN ACCUSED BY THE POLICE OF

11
12
13
MURDERING YOUR BOYFRIEND AT THE TIME.
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU STATED TO THE POLICE IN YOUR INTERVIEW
,
J
14
15
ON SEPTEMBER 8TH THAT YOU KNEW THAT THEY KNEW SPEEDY WAS
THE ONE, RIGHT?
l
16 A. YES. 1
17 Q. AND YOU THINK HE'S THE ONE, RIGHT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. AND THAT'S WHY YOU WANT TO TESTIFY IN THIS
20 CASE, CORRECT? l
A. CORRECT.
21
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
WHEN DO YOU PLAN TO CALL HER?
l
25 MR. TROCHA: NEXT. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD OBJECT
27 TO HER BEING CALLED NEXT. I RECEIVED THESE REPORTS OF l
28 THREATS 10 MINUTES AGO. THEY ARE ABOUT EIGHT PAGES
l
l
r 616
r 1 LONG. I WOULD LIKE TO READ THEM TONIGHT BEFORE I

r 2 CROSS-EXAMINE HER.
r 3
4
MR. TROCHA: IN TERMS OF THAT, YOUR HONOR, WE
DON'T PLAN ON GETTING INTO THE SPECIFICS OF THE THREATS.
r 5
6
WE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO GET INTO WHO DID THE THREATS, BUT
THE THREATS WERE MADE TO HER BROTHER AND MADE TO HER.
r 7
8
WE CAN HAVE AN INSTRUCTION THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ IS NOT
CONNECTED TO THESE THREATS, HE WAS NOT BEHIND THESE
r 9 THREATS, NOR DID HE COMMUNICATE THESE THREATS
r 10
11
THEMSELVES.
THE COURT: MAY I SEE THE REPORTS, PLEASE,
r 12
13
SOMEONE'S COPY, MR. TROCHA?
THIS IS.
LET ME SEE JUST HOW COMPLEX
r 14
15
MS. BERUMEN, THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN AND
GO WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR, AND WE'LL
r 16 LET YOU KNOW. OKAY? THANK YOU.
r 17
18 REPORTS.
THANK YOU. I'VE HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEW THE
THE REPORTS THAT I'M REFERRING TO ARE A
r 19
20
STATEMENT FROM -- A WITNESS STATEMENT, INVESTIGATIVE
REPORT, SORRY -- FROM THE SAN DIEGO DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S
r 21
22
INVESTIGATIVE BUREAU. THE AUTHOR OF THIS REPORT IS
DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR CAMPOS. IT'S FIVE
r 23
24
SINGLE-SPACED PAGES.
THE ESSENCE, WITH RESPECT TO THE THREATS, IS
r 25 WHAT WE'VE JUST HEARD TESTIFIED TO. THE BALANCE OF THE
r 26
27
REPORT DEALS WITH FOLLOWING UP, INVESTIGATOR CAMPOS
INTERVIEWED JOSUE GUTIERREZ AND ALSO ANGELINA CAMPOS.
r 28 THERE'S BACKGROUND INFORMATION ABOUT BOTH OF THOSE.
r
617
,
l
1 I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOME BALANCING HERE.
2 FIRST OF ALL, I FIND THAT ALTHOUGH THE EVIDENCE IS l
3 DISPUTED, THERE IS SUFFICIENT BASIS TO FIND PERSONAL
4 KNOWLEDGE ON THE PART OF THE HEARSAY DECLARANT,
l
5
6
MR. GUTIERREZ, TO ALLOW MS. BERUMEN'S TESTIMONY.
HER TESTIMONY IS PROFFERED UNDER SECTION 1235
l
7 OF THE EVIDENCE CODE. IT IS A PRIOR INCONSISTENT
l
8 STATEMENT UNDER CALIFORNIA V. GREEN. IT'S USABLE FOR
9 THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER ASSERTED THEREIN. THE
10 CREDIBILITY OF THE HEARSAY DECLARANT IS ALWAYS IN ISSUE,
11 JUST AS IF THE HEARSAY DECLARANT WAS A WITNESS. l
12 MR. GUTIERREZ HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED. HE'S BEEN
13 ASKED ABOUT THESE STATEMENTS. HE'S DENIED KNOWING
l
14
15
MS. BERUMEN OR EVEN KNOWING THAT SHE WAS HIS FRIEND'S
MOISES' GIRLFRIEND AT ONE POINT. I RECALL HIM SAYING,
l
16 "WE DON'T TALK ABOUT GIRLS OR GIRLFRIENDS," THIS ALMOST l
17 IN THE SAME BREATH THAT HE WAS GOING TO CRASH THE
18 QUINCEANERA TO TRY TO PICK UP GIRLS. l
19 I DO FIND THAT THERE IS A SUFFICIENT BASIS TO
20 CONCLUDE THAT MR. GUTIERREZ HAD PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AND l
21
22
THAT HIS STATEMENTS TO MS. BERUMEN ARE RELIABLE TO ALLOW
THEIR ADMISSION INTO COURT, INTO EVIDENCE. SO THAT WILL
l
23
24
BE THE RESOLUTION OF THAT 402 HEARING WITH RESPECT TO
THE PROFFERED TESTIMONY.
l
25 WITH RESPECT TO THE THREATS, NUMBER ONE, I FIND l
26 THE THREATS ARE RELEVANT. NUMBER TWO, I THINK THERE HAS
27 TO BE A LIMITING INSTRUCTION THAT SAYS THAT THERE IS NO l
28 EVIDENCE THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS THE SOURCE OF THESE
l
l
r
I
618
r
I
1 THREATS AND THE JURY IS NOT TO DRAW ANY INFERENCE THAT
r 2 HE MAY HAVE BEEN BEHIND OR CAUSED OR THE SOURCE OF THESE

3 THREATS, AND I'LL BE HAPPY TO CONSIDER THE EXACT
r 4 FORMULATION OF IT WITH INPUT FROM BOTH COUNSEL.
r 5
6
THE BALANCING THAT I TALKED ABOUT IS THIS:
THIS IS A GANG CASE. IT'S A MURDER. SHELLTOWN IS A
r 7
8
WELL-KNOWN, LONG-ESTABLISHED CRIMINAL STREET GANG, AND I
THINK THE COURT HAS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE THREATS ARE
r 9 SOMETHING THAT THIS YOUNG GIRL WHO LIVES IN THAT MILIEU

10 WILL BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO; THEREFORE, IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET
r 11 HER TESTIMONY ON WHEN WE CAN.
r 12
13
I'M GOING TO DENY THE REQUEST FOR A
CONTINUANCE. I'M GOING TO ALLOW HER TESTIMONY IN ITS
r 14
15
ENTIRETY AT THIS TIME, AND, IF NEED BE, I'LL HAVE HER
SUBJECT TO RECALL IF MR. SPEREDELOZZI THEN DEVELOPS
r 16 INFORMATION FROM FURTHER FOLLOW-UP INVESTIGATION WHERE
r
17 FURTHER EXAMINATION OF HER NEEDS TO OCCUR.
18 ALL RIGHT. I'LL RETURN THESE REPORTS TO YOU,
19 MR. TROCHA. MY THANKS TO BOTH COUNSEL. LET ME INVITE

r 20 STAFF AND COUNSEL TO TAKE A FIVE-MINUTE BREAK. WE'LL
r 21
22
BRING THE JURORS IN IN FIVE MINUTES.
DO YOU WISH TO INTERRUPT THE TESTIMONY OF
r 23
24
OFFICER WEAVER?
MR. TROCHA: NO. I THINK WE CAN GET HIM OFF.
r 25 I DON'T THINK MR. SPEREDELOZZI HAS TOO EXTENSIVE A
r 26
27
CROSS.
THE COURT: WELL, IF HE DOES AND IT GOES TILL
r 28 NOON, THEN MS. BERUMEN COMES ON THIS AFTERNOON. BUT
r
619
1 WE'LL TRY TO FINISH MR. WEAVER AND THEN START WITH

2 MS. BERUMEN. IF THAT WORKS, FINE. AND, IF NOT,
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI GETS THE TIME HE REASONABLY NEEDS TO DO
4 THE EXAMINATION OF MR. WEAVER. RECONVENE IN FIVE
5 MINUTES. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
,_,
j
6 (BRIEF RECESS TAKEN.)
7
8
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL
l
9 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. I SHOULD HAVE l
10 INDICATED EARLIER, AND I WILL INDICATE NOW, THAT
11 DETECTIVE LAMBERT IS NOT WITH US TODAY AND HAS NOT BEEN 1
12 HERE IN THE MORNING SESSION. OFFICER WEAVER HAS RESUMED
l
14
15
l
l
16
17
18
19
MICHAEL WEAVER,
PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY FIRST DULY
SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
,
21 Q. GOOD MORNING, OFFICER WEAVER.
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL.
SO LOOKING AT PROSECUTION 2, THAT NIGHT THIS
WHITE CAR THAT'S AT THE WEST AND NORTH CORNER OF 40TH
,
25 AND OCEAN VIEW -- YOU WERE MONITORING TRAFFIC ABOUT l
26 WHERE THAT CAR IS?
27 A. ROUGHLY. l
28 Q. AND THEN YOU DROVE AROUND THE PARK; IS THAT
l
l
r 620
r 1 RIGHT?
r 2
3
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THEN YOU'D COME BACK AROUND ON OCEAN VIEW,
rm
l 4 WHERE OCEAN VIEW HITS 40TH, ON PROSECUTION 2, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THAT'S ABOUT THE TIME YOU HEARD GUNSHOTS?
r 7
8
A. A LITTLE BIT FARTHER TOWARDS YOUR RIGHT, BUT,
YES, ROUGHLY AT THAT POINT, THAT'S WHERE WE HEARD IT.
r 9 Q. MY RIGHT.
r
10 A. AS I WAS TURNING THE CORNER, I WAS MORE ON 40TH
11 THAN OCEAN VIEW WHEN I HEARD IT. RIGHT ABOUT THERE.
r 12
13
Q. RIGHT ABOUT HERE, INDICATING JUST NORTH OF THE
INTERSECTION BETWEEN OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH, BUT ON 40TH?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND OFFICER EULER WAS IN FRONT OF YOU?
r 16 A. YES.
r
17 Q. AND WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, DID YOU SLOW
18 DOWN?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO. WE SPED UP.
YOU SPED UP? AND THEN DID YOU SEE ANYBODY IN
r 21
22
THE PARK AT THAT POINT?
A. NOT AT THAT POINT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WERE YOU LOOKING TO YOUR RIGHT?
YES.
r 25 Q. AND TO YOUR RIGHT LOOKS INTO THE PARK?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY RUNNING SOUTH?
r 28 A. NO, NOT AT THAT POINT.
r
621
1 Q. AND THEN YOU TOOK A RIGHT ON FRANKLIN?

2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. AND BY THE TIME YOU TOOK A RIGHT ON FRANKLIN,

4 THE GUNSHOTS HAD STOPPED?
5 A. THEY HAD STOPPED WITHIN SECONDS OF US HEARING
6 THEM. WE WERE STILL ON 40TH AND ACCELERATING RAPIDLY ON

7 40TH.
8 Q. SO YOU WERE STILL ON 40TH WHEN THE GUNSHOTS
9 STOPPED?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND THEN AS YOU TURNED THE CORNER ON FRANKLIN,
12 THE GUNSHOTS HAD STOPPED FOR A BIT OF TIME?
13 A. ROUGHLY THREE, FOUR SECONDS.
14 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU TURNED ONTO FRANKLIN, YOU SAW
15 WHO?
16 A. NOTHING AT THAT POINT. IT WASN'T UNTIL WE HAD
17 RUN UP THE HILL AND INTO THE PARK THAT I SAW FIGURES
18 RUNNING TO THE SOUTH, SOUTHEAST.
19 Q. AND HOW MANY FIGURES?
20 A. IT WAS A GROUP OF THEM. COULD HAVE BEEN
21 ANYWHERE BETWEEN 6 TO 10. IT WAS DARK.
22 Q. IT WASN'T 20 PEOPLE?
23 A. I DON'T REMEMBER A NUMBER THAT LARGE.
26 IS THERE REDIRECT?
27 MR. TROCHA: NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.

r 622
r 1 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I MISCALLED THAT ONE,

r 2 OBVIOUSLY. WE COULD HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE THE BREAK.
3 MY THANKS TO BOTH COUNSEL. OFFICER, THANK YOU, SIR.
r 4 YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY
r 5
6
WITH ANY OTHER WITNESS, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE
CASE IS OVER. GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
PEOPLE CALL GLENNYS BERUMEN.
YOU MAY. BEFORE YOU DO,
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA -- MR. TROCHA, BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE
COURTROOM -- LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, ONE OF THE ISSUES
r 11 THAT WE HAVE BEEN ADDRESSING OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE AND ON
r 12
13
THE BREAK HAS TO DO WITH TESTIMONY OF THIS NEXT WITNESS,
MS. BERUMEN. I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A LIMITING
r 14
15
INSTRUCTION.
EARLY ON.
I TOLD YOU ABOUT LIMITING INSTRUCTIONS
r 16
17
SOMETIMES THERE WILL BE EVIDENCE THAT IS
RECEIVABLE ONLY FOR A CERTAIN LIMITED PURPOSE, AND YOU
r 18 MAY HEAR SOME SUCH EVIDENCE WITH RESPECT TO MS. BERUMEN.
r 19
20
PERMIT ME TO PUT THIS IN CONTEXT.
AS WE ALL DISCUSSED DURING THE VOIR DIRE
r 21
22
PROCESS, AND AS YOU KNOW AND WILL BE INSTRUCTED, YOU ARE
THE JUDGES OF THE FACTS. THIS MEANS THAT YOU ALONE MUST
r 23 JUDGE THE CREDIBILITY OR THE BELIEVABILITY OF THE
r
24 WITNESSES.
25 YOU WILL BE INSTRUCTED THAT IN DECIDING WHETHER
26 TESTIMONY IS TRUE AND ACCURATE, YOU MUST USE YOUR COMMON
r 27 SENSE AND EXPERIENCE. YOU MUST JUDGE THE TESTIMONY OF
r 28 EACH WITNESS BY THE SAME STANDARDS -- WE TALKED ABOUT
r
623
l
1 THAT, DIDN'T WE -- SETTING ASIDE ANY BIAS OR PREJUDICE
~
i
2 THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE. !
3 YOU MAY BELIEVE ALL OR PART OR NONE OF ANY

4 WITNESS'S TESTIMONY. YOU ARE TO CONSIDER THE TESTIMONY
5 OF EACH WITNESS AND DECIDE HOW MUCH OF IT YOU BELIEVE.
6 NOW, IN EVALUATING A WITNESS'S TESTIMONY, YOU
7
8
MAY CONSIDER ANYTHING THAT REASONABLY TENDS TO PROVE OR
DISPROVE THE TRUTH OR ACCURACY ABOUT THAT TESTIMONY. WE
l
9 TALKED ABOUT THAT IN VOIR DIRE.
10 HOW WELL COULD THE WITNESS SEE? HOW WELL COULD
~
I
11 THE WITNESS HEAR? HOW WELL DOES THE WITNESS REMEMBER? J
12 DOES THE WITNESS ANSWER THE QUESTIONS DIRECTLY? DOES

13 THE WITNESS TAKE THE PROCEEDINGS SERIOUSLY? DOES THE
l
14
15
WITNESS HAVE A BIAS OR INTEREST OR MOTIVE THAT MAY CAUSE
A PERSON TO SHADE HIS OR HER TESTIMONY?
1
16 NOW, WITH RESPECT TO THIS NEXT WITNESS,
l
17 MS. GLENNYS BERUMEN, YOU MAY HEAR TESTIMONY THAT THIS
18 WITNESS HAS RECENTLY BEEN THREATENED WITH BODILY HARM IF
19 SHE TESTIFIES AT THIS TRIAL. THIS EVIDENCE IS ADMITTED
20 ONLY FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF ITS POSSIBLE EFFECT ON l
21 HER CREDIBILITY OR BELIEVABILITY.
22 A WITNESS WHO HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF THREATS,
l
23
24
IF YOU FIND THAT TO BE THE CASE, MAY BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY
ON THE WITNESS STAND THAN ONE WHO DOES NOT OR HAS NOT.
1
25 IT WILL BE UP TO YOU TO EVALUATE THIS l
26 POSSIBILITY ALONG WITH THE OTHER EVIDENCE. IT IS OF
27 CRITICAL IMPORTANCE, HOWEVER, THAT YOU NOT DRAW ANY l
28 NEGATIVE CONCLUSIONS ABOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ BECAUSE OF
l
l
r 624
r
1 THIS. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS THE SOURCE OF
r 2 THREATS.
r 3
4
INSTEAD, IF YOU HEAR EVIDENCE THAT THIS WITNESS
WAS TESTIFIED (SIC), YOU CONSIDER THAT IN EVALUATING HER
r 5
6
BELIEVABILITY. YOU MUST NOT USE THAT EVIDENCE FOR ANY
OTHER PURPOSE AND YOU MUST NOT USE IT TO INFER THAT
r 7
8
MR. DOMINGUEZ IS EITHER GUILTY OF THOSE THREATS OR
GUILTY OF THE CRIME OF WHICH HE'S CHARGED TODAY.
r 9 DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THESE INSTRUCTIONS?
r 10
11
I'M SEEING ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES.
I SEE MS. ALTERNATE RAISING HER HAND.
r 12
13
ALTERNATE JUROR: I APOLOGIZE, SIR.
CAN WE KNOW WHO THE WITNESS WAS THREATENED BY?
r
l
14 ARE WE ALLOWED TO HEAR THAT?
15 THE COURT: YOU WILL HEAR PART OF IT IN THE
r 16 TESTIMONY FROM THE WITNESS, BUT WHAT YOU WILL NOT HEAR
r 17
18
IS EVIDENCE THAT LINKS THAT PERSON TO MR. DOMINGUEZ.
IN OTHER WORDS, I BELIEVE YOU WILL NOT HEAR ANY
r 19
20
EVIDENCE THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ TOLD THIS PERSON TO GO OUT
AND COMMUNICATE THESE THREATS, AND THAT IS THE LINK THAT
r 21
22
I WANT TO FOCUS ON HERE.
YOU MUST NOT CONCLUDE THAT HE MUST BE GUILTY OF
r 23 COUNT 1 OR COUNT 2 IN THIS CASE, AND YOU MUST NOT
r 24
25
CONCLUDE THAT HE MUST BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE THREATS.
YOU MUST CONSIDER THE THREAT INFORMATION ONLY IN TERMS
r 26
27
OF HOW IT MIGHT AFFECT THIS WITNESS'S BELIEVABILITY.
DOES THAT ANSWER THE QUESTION?
r 28 ALTERNATE JUROR: YES, SIR.
r
,
625
,
1
2
THE COURT: GOOD QUESTION, AND THANK YOU.
THAT LIMITING INSTRUCTION, YOU MAY CALL THE WITNESS.
WITH
,
3 MR. TROCHA:
l
4
6
THE COURT: MS. BERUMEN, MAY I ASK THAT YOU
STAND WHERE YOU ARE, AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND SO YOU
MAY PROMISE TO TELL THE TRUTH.
,
l
l
9
10
11
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
YES.
,
12 NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD, AND SPELL
13 THE FIRST AND LAST NAME.
1
14
15
THE WITNESS: GLENNYS BERUMEN, G-L-E-N-N-Y-S,
LAST NAME IS B-E-R-U-M-E-N.
l
l
16
17
THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY HAVE A SEAT.
ASKING THE INVESTIGATOR WHO IS ACCOMPANYING HER, WOULD
,
18
19
20
YOU MOVE THE MICROPHONE FORWARD FOR US.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES, SIR.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE.
, J
21
22
MS. BERUMEN, WE NEED YOU TO SPEAK INTO THE
MICROPHONE.
l
24 GLENNYS BERUMEN,
25 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, l
27 /// l
28 Ill
l
1
r 626
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU CAME INTO COURT TODAY WITH
AN INVESTIGATOR. AND WHO IS THE GENTLEMAN IN THE
r 5
6
BACK?
A. MY DAD.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU, SIR.
r 9 Q. HOW OLD ARE YOU?
r
10 A. 19.
11 Q. DID YOU KNOW SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF MOISES
r 12
13
LOPEZ?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO WAS MOISES LOPEZ?
MY BOYFRIEND.
r 16 Q. WHERE DID YOU MEET MOISES?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
POINT LOMA HIGH SCHOOL.
WERE YOU A STUDENT THERE AT THE TIME?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS HE A STUDENT AS WELL?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU FRIENDS WITH HIM?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU ALSO DATE HIM?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU DATING MR. LOPEZ AT THE TIME
OF HIS DEATH?
r 28 A. A YEAR.
r
FlW!I
!
627
l
1 Q. HOW LONG HAD YOU KNOWN MOISES LOPEZ BEFORE HIS
2 DEATH?
3 A. NINE YEARS.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE OCEAN VIEW OR MOUNTAIN VIEW
5 PARK IS? ~
I
6 A. YES.
7 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE SHELLTOWN IS?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WERE YOU LIVING IN SHELLTOWN OR NEAR SHELLTOWN
10 AT THAT TIME?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. DID YOU HANG OUT WITH MOISES LOPEZ IN THAT
13 AREA?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU KNOW ANY OF HIS FRIENDS?
1
16
17
18
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
WHO WERE SOME OF HIS CLOSER FRIENDS?
ISMAEL ACEVES, JOSUE AND RAUL.
,
l
1
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW JOSUE'S LAST NAME?

20 A. I DON'T REMEMBER HIS LAST NAME. l
21
22
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW RAUL'S LAST NAME?
NO.
l
23
24
Q.
NICKNAMES?
DO YOU KNOW IF ISMAEL, JOSUE OR RAUL HAVE
l
25 A. I KNOW JOSUE IS SCRAPPY. RAUL, I DON'T l
26 REMEMBER HIS AK. AND ISMAEL, I JUST KNOW HIM BY ISMAEL.
27 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A GROUP KNOWN AS l
l
l
r 628
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO IS OR WHAT IS SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
IT'S A GANG.
IS IT A GANG THAT'S IN SHELLTOWN?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF THESE FOUR PEOPLE YOU
r 7
8
MENTIONED ARE MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. WHO?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
JOSUE AND RAUL.
DO YOU KNOW IF MOISES WAS A MEMBER OF 38TH
r 12
13
STREET?
A. YES, HE WAS.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
DID HE HAVE A NICKNAME?
YES.
r 16 Q. WHAT WAS IT?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
SMOKEY.
DO YOU KNOW IF ISMAEL ACEVES IS A MEMBER?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT HE HANGS OUT WITH THESE GUYS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF FLORENCIO
r 23 DOMINGUEZ?
r 24
25
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ HERE IN COURT TODAY?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
WOULD YOU TELL THE JURY WHERE HE IS SITTING AND
r 28 WHAT HE'S WEARING.
r
,
1 A. HE'S ON THE LEFT SIDE. HE'S WEARING BLUE.
629
,
2 Q. IS HE SITTING NEXT TO A GENTLEMAN WITH GLASSES l
3 ON?
4 A. YES. l
5
6
MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, MAY THE RECORD REFLECT
THE WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT?
l
7
8
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
YES, SO ORDERED.
l
9 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAS ANY NICKNAMES? 1
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT NICKNAMES DO YOU KNOW HIM BY? 1
12 A. BY CHUNKY AND SPEEDY.
13 Q. HAD YOU MET MR. DOMINGUEZ PRIOR TO COMING TO
l
14
15
COURT TODAY?
A. YES.
1
l
16
17
18
Q.
A.
YEARS AGO.
APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG AGO DID YOU MEET HIM?
I DON'T REMEMBER HOW LONG AGO. IT WAS A COUPLE
,
J
19 Q. WHEN I SAY "MEET HIM," DID YOU ACTUALLY GO UP

20 AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF OR WAS HE POINTED OUT TO YOU BY l
21 SOMEBODY ELSE?
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
A.
I GOT INTRODUCED TO HIM.
DO YOU KNOW ANY MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY?
NO.
,
25 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAS ANY FAMILY? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHO DO YOU KNOW OF? l
28 A. THE ONLY ONE I SEEN IS HIS SISTER.
l
l
r 630
r 1 Q. WHERE WAS THIS LOCATION WHERE YOU CAME INTO
r 2 CONTACT WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ PRIOR TO TODAY?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
WAS IT AT A SCHOOL? WAS IT AT A PARTY? WAS IT
r 5
6
AT A PARK?
A. IT WAS AT A BARBECUE.
r 7
8
Q. GETTING BACK TO JOSUE, HOW LONG HAD YOU KNOWN
JOSUE PRIOR TO MOISES'S DEATH?
r 9 A. I KNEW JOSUE FROM ELEMENTARY.
r 10
11 HIM?
Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH
12 A. I USED TO TALK TO HIM BACK THEN WHEN WE WERE IN

r 13 ELEMENTARY, AND WHEN WE WERE IN MIDDLE SCHOOL TOO.
r 14
15
Q.
ANYTHING?
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL, IF
r 16 A. I DIDN'T GET ALONG WITH HIM BECAUSE OF HIS
17 GIRLFRIEND, BUT HE WOULD STILL TALK TO ME.
r 18 Q. WOULD YOU CONSIDER HIM A FRIEND OR AN
r 19
20
ACQUAINTANCE OR A FRIEND OF A FRIEND?
A. A FRIEND.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN MOISES WAS KILLED?
I WAS 16.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU FIND OUT THAT MOISES WAS KILLED?
I WAS IN MY HOUSE AND THEY TOLD ME, MY FRIENDS,
r 25 AND IN SCHOOL EVERYBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT IT.
r 26 Q. AT THE TIME, WERE YOU ON PROBATION?
27 A. YES, I WAS.
r 28 Q. FOR WHAT?
r
,
631
, I
J
1
2
A.
Q.
FOR SCHOOL.
DID YOU -- WERE YOU ALSO ON PROBATION WITH
, !
3 JUVENILE HALL? ~
f
4 A. YES. J
5 Q. FOR WHAT?
6 A. I WAS ON PROBATION IN JUVENILE HALL OVER STUFF
7 THAT I DID IN TEMECULA.
8 Q. WAS THIS A PETTY THEFT?
9 A. YES. l l
10 Q. WITH SOME OTHER FRIENDS?

11 A. YES. 1
12 Q. AS PART OF THAT PROBATION, WERE YOU ON WHAT'S
13 CALLED HOME SUPERVISION? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES, I WAS.
WHAT IS HOME SUPERVISION, FOR THOSE OF US THAT
1
l
16
17
18
DON'T KNOW?
A. I HAD TO STAY IN MY HOUSE, AND THE ONLY PLACE I
COULD HAVE WENT WAS TO SCHOOL OR WORK.
, J
19 Q. SO YOU COULDN'T GO HANG OUT AT PARTIES OR GO TO

20 PARKS OR GO TO THE MALL? l
21 A. NO.
l
22
23
Q. IS THAT THE ONLY TIME YOU'VE BEEN IN TROUBLE
WITH THE LAW IN YOUR LIFE?
, j
24 A. YES.
25 Q. SOMETIME IN THE FEW DAYS AFTER MOISES WAS l J
26 KILLED, WERE YOU CONTACTED BY JOSUE?

27 A. YES. l
28 Q. WHERE WAS THIS?
l
l
r 632
r 1 A. OCEAN VIEW PARK.
r 2 Q. CAN YOU SEE THAT PARK IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
IS IT THE LARGE GREEN AREA IN THE MIDDLE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, BY WHERE THE BATHROOMS ARE.
WOULD THAT BE THIS BUILDING RIGHT HERE,
r 7
8
MS. BERUMEN?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. WHERE WERE YOU GOING AT THE TIME?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
TO MY AUNT'S HOUSE.
WHERE WERE YOU COMING FROM?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
FROM MY HOUSE.
HOW CLOSE WAS THIS IN TIME TO WHEN MOISES WAS
r 14
15
KILLED?
A. IT WAS AFTER WHEN HE GOT KILLED.
r 16
17
Q.
REMEMBER?
THE NEXT DAY? A FEW DAYS LATER? OR DO YOU
r 18 A. LIKE A MONTH AFTER.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
SO WITHIN THE MONTH?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WAS MOISES'S DEATH STILL FRESH IN YOUR MIND?
YES.
r 23 Q.
A.
WERE YOU WALKING OR WERE YOU DRIVING?
I WAS WALKING.
r
24
25 Q. WERE YOU ALONE OR WITH ANYONE?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I WAS ALONE.
AND HOW WERE YOU APPROACHED BY JOSUE?
r 28 A. HE WALKED TOWARDS ME, AND HE WAS WITH SOME GIRL
r
633
1
1 THAT THEY CALLED HER ROWDY, AND THAT'S WHEN HE STARTED
2 TELLING ME THAT HE WAS THERE WHEN SPEEDY KILLED MOISES.
3 Q. THIS GIRL, ROWDY, HAD YOU EVER SEEN HER BEFORE?
4 A. YES.
1 1
5 Q. WHERE HAD YOU SEEN HER BEFORE? ~
7
A.
Q.
AT OCEAN VIEW PARK.
DO YOU KNOW IF SHE HAS ANY CONNECTION TO
, J
!
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. IN WHAT WAY?
11 A. SHE'S A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET.
12 Q. WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE WITH JOSUE AT THE TIME?
13 A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER.
l
14
15
Q.
TIME?
WAS THERE ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE PARK AT THE
1
l
16
17
18
A.
Q.
A CAR?
YES, BUT NOT CLOSE TO US.
WHEN JOSUE CONTACTED YOU, WAS HE ON FOOT OR IN
, j
19 A. HE WAS ON FOOT.
20 Q. WHAT DID YOU NOTICE ABOUT HIS PERSONALITY OR -- 1
21
22
AT THAT TIME?
A. HE WAS DRINKING WITH ROWDY.
l
23 Q. DID YOU SEE WHAT HE WAS DRINKING? ~
J
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT WAS HE DRINKING? l J
26 A. HE WAS DRINKING A BEER.

27 Q. DID HE HAVE IT IN HIS HAND? l
28 A. YES.
l
1
r 634
r 1 Q. DID HE SMELL OF ALCOHOL?

r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
ALCOHOL?
DID HE APPEAR TO BE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IN WHAT WAY?
r 7
8
A.
OF DRUNK.
THE WAY HE WAS ACTING. AND HE WAS ALREADY KIND
r 9 Q. COULD YOU -- WAS HE SLURRING HIS WORDS OR
r
10 ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
11 A. I DIDN'T GET THAT.
r 12
13
Q. SURE. WAS HE SLURRING HIS WORDS OR FALLING
DOWN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
BUT HE APPEARED THAT HE HAD BEEN DRINKING?
r 16
17
A. YES.
HOW DID THIS CONTACT COME ABOUT? AND WHEN I
r
Q.
18 ASK THAT, DID YOU SAY HI TO HIM OR DID HE SAY HI TO YOU
r 19
20
OR HOW DID YOU TWO COME TOGETHER?
A. HE YELLED MY NAME AND HE CALLED ME OVER THERE
r 21
22
WHERE HE WAS SITTING AT THE BENCHES.
Q. WOULD THOSE BE THE BENCHES IN THE PARK?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
NOW, THERE ARE A COUPLE SETS OF BENCHES,
r 25 CORRECT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ARE THESE THE BENCHES CLOSE TO THE BATHROOMS OR
r 28 IS IT THE BENCH THAT'S TUCKED BEHIND THIS TREE, CLOSER
r
635
, 1
1
2
TO OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD?
A. CLOSE TO THE BATHROOMS.
, J
3 Q. DID YOU GO OVER TO THOSE BENCHES? ..,

I
4
5
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
WHY? , J
l
6 A. BECAUSE AT THE TIME HE WAS A FRIEND OF MINE AND

7 HE CALLED ME OVER THERE.
8 Q. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WALKED OVER THERE?
9 A. HE STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH OF MOISES.
10 Q. HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT? LET ME ASK IT A
11 DIFFERENT WAY.
12 DID HE JUST COME UP AND SAY, "I SAW IT HAPPEN.
13 THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED," OR WAS THERE A-- SOMETHING
1
14
15
TALKED ABOUT BEFOREHAND?
A. THAT -- THAT'S WHEN HE HAD MENTIONED IT TO ME.
l
16 Q. WALK THE JURY AND ME THROUGH THIS CONVERSATION. l
17
18
SO YOU WALK UP TO THE BENCHES.
A. NO, I DON'T.
DO YOU SIT DOWN? , j
I
19 Q. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

20 A. HE STARTS TALKING ABOUT WHATEVER HAPPENED AT l
21 THE PARK. ,.,
22
23
Q. FIRST OFF, WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING HE SAID
ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AT THE PARK ON THE NIGHT MOISES WAS
, 1
/
24 KILLED?
25 A. HE HAD ASKED ME IF I KNEW WHAT HAD HAPPENED, l
26 AND I TOLD HIM NO, THAT I DIDN'T HEAR NOTHING ABOUT IT,
27 THAT I WASN'T THERE, I WAS ON HOUSE ARREST. l
28 Q. WHAT'S THE NEXT THING HE SAID?
l
l
r 636
r 1
r
A. THAT'S WHEN HE MENTIONED THAT HE SAW WHEN CIDIA
2 WAS DRIVING THE CAR, VANDAL WAS IN THE BACK, CIDIA'S
r 3
4
BOYFRIEND, AND SPEEDY WAS NEXT TO CIDIA WHEN HE KILLED
HIM.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
THIS IS THINGS HE OBSERVED ON THE NIGHT OF?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
SO HE TOLD YOU HE SAW A GIRL NAMED SIRIA --
CIDIA.
r 9 Q. -- DRIVE INTO THE PARK?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE WAS HE? WAS HE ALREADY IN THE PARK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
HE WAS ALREADY IN THE PARK.
AND, AGAIN, THIS IS WHAT HE'S TELLING YOU,
r 14
15
CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AND HE SAID SPEEDY WAS WITH SIRIA?
YES.
r 18 Q. WHO ELSE WAS WITH SIRIA?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
VANDAL.
DO YOU KNOW VANDAL'S REAL NAME?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
IS VANDAL A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET, IF YOU KNOW?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW WHO SIRIA FORD IS?
L 25 A. HUH?
r 26 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO SIRIA FORD IS?
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. IS SIRIA FORD THE SIRIA WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?
r
637
1
1
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF SHE IS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 1
3 38TH STREET?
4 A. NO, SHE'S NOT.
5 Q. WHAT HAPPENED, ACCORDING TO JOSUE, AFTER THESE ~
J
6 PEOPLE ARRIVED IN THE PARK?
7
8
A. THAT'S WHEN I --HE TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE
BEATING UP SMOKEY OR MOISES. THEY WERE BEATING HIM UP
l
l
9
10
11
AND THEN
Q.
A.
ACCORDING TO JOSUE, WHO WAS BEATING UP SMOKEY?
SPEEDY.
,
12 Q. WAS HE THE ONLY ONE BEATING HIM UP OR WERE
13 OTHER PEOPLE BEATING HIM UP TOO?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
HE ONLY TOLD ME THAT IT WAS SPEEDY.
WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
1
16 A. THAT'S WHEN HE DROVE AWAY WITH CIDIA AND l
17
18
STARTED SHOOTING.
Q. WHO DROVE AWAY WITH SIRIA?
, j
)
19 A. SPEEDY.
20 Q. DROVE INTO THE PARK OR LEFT THE PARK? l
21 A. LEFT THE PARK.
l
22
23
24
Q. IN TERMS OF THE SHOOTING, DID JOSUE TELL YOU
WHO DID THE SHOOTING?
A. YES.
,
25 Q. WHO DID THE SHOOTING, ACCORDING TO JOSUE? l
26 A. ACCORDING TO JOSUE, SPEEDY DID IT.
27 Q. DID HE SAY HE SAW SPEEDY SHOOT JOSUE (SIC)? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 638
r 1 Q. DID HE GIVE YOU DETAILS AS TO HOW THIS HAPPENED
r 2 OR WHERE IT HAPPENED IN THE PARK?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
HE TOLD ME THAT HE SAW SPEEDY SHOT MOISES.
THAT'S THE EXTENT OF WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DID HE MENTION IF ANYONE ELSE SHOT MOISES?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
AND THEN HOW DID JOSUE SAY SPEEDY LEFT THE
r 9
10
PARK?
A. IN THE CAR.
r 11 Q. WITH SIRIA?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WITH CIDIA AND VANDAL.
THIS IS ALL INFORMATION COMING TO YOU FROM
r 14
15
JOSUE?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q. DID HE TELL YOU ANYTHING ELSE IN RELATION TO
WHAT HE SAW IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT?
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q. DID HE TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS WITH
MOISES EARLIER THAT DAY?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
HE WAS.
WHAT DID HE TELL YOU IN THAT REGARD?
r 23
24
A. BEFORE ALL THAT HAPPENED, THEY WERE AT A
BARBECUE, AND THAT'S WHEN THEY STARTED ARGUING ABOUT
r 25 THAT.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DID HE TELL YOU WHERE THIS BARBECUE TOOK PLACE?
IT WAS AT A FRIEND'S HOUSE, BUT I DON'T KNOW
r 28 EXACTLY WHO IT WAS.
r
639
1
l
1
2
Q.
A.
WERE YOU AT THIS BARBECUE?
NO, I WASN'T.
, j
3 Q. WHAT IS THIS ABOUT THE ARGUING?

4
5
A. JOSUE TOLD ME THAT SPEEDY WAS ARGUING WITH
MOISES ABOUT LIL CROOKS' DEATH. ,
1
6 Q. WAS THIS ABOUT A SHOOTING OR SOMETHING OF THAT
7
8
9
NATURE?
A.
Q.
YES.
OTHER THAN THAT, DID JOSUE GIVE YOU ANY MORE
,
l
10 DETAILS?
1
11 A. NO. 1
12 Q. DID HE TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT THIS BARBECUE

1
13
14
15
WAS BEFORE OR AFTER THE SHOOTING?
A.
Q.
THAT WAS BEFORE.
WAS IT THE SAME DAY?
,
J
l
16
17
18
A.
Q.
YES, IT WAS.
AS THIS IS GOING ON, IS THIS DONE IN FULL VIEW
OF THIS GIRL NAMED ROWDY?
,
19 A. YES.
20 Q. IS SHE INTERACTING AT ALL WITH EITHER OF YOU l
21 DURING THIS CONVERSATION?
1
22
23
24
A.
Q.
A.
NO.
IS SHE SAYING ANYTHING?
NO.
,
25 Q. HOW DID THIS CONVERSATION WITH JOSUE END? l
26 A. I RECEIVED A CALL FROM MY AUNT, AND I TOLD HIM
27 I WAS GOING TO LEAVE. l
28 Q. AND DID YOU LEAVE THE PARK AT THAT TIME?
l
1
r 640
r 1 A. YES, I DID.
r 2 Q. OTHER THAN APPEARING TO HAVE BEEN DRINKING
r 3
4
ALCOHOL, WAS JOSUE EMOTIONAL AT ALL WHILE HE'S TELLING
YOU THIS?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IN WHAT WAY?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
HE WAS CRYING.
WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO HEARING THIS?
r 9 A. I DIDN'T EXPECT HIM TO TELL ME THAT.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WERE YOU UPSET BY THIS?
YES, I WAS.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WERE YOU SHOCKED AT ALL?
YES, I WAS.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY DIDN'T YOU CONTACT THE POLICE AT THAT TIME?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WAS JOSUE A FRIEND OF YOURS AT THE TIME?
YES.
r 18 Q. HAS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH JOSUE CHANGED
r 19
20
BETWEEN THAT TIME AND TODAY?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
IN WHAT WAY?
HE HAS SENT PEOPLE TO THREATEN ME.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
ARE YOU STILL FRIENDS WITH HIM?
NO.
r 25 Q. YOU WERE CONTACTED OR YOU CONTACTED THE POLICE
r 26
27
LAST YEAR, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 28 Q. AROUND SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER?
r
641
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DID YOU TELL THEM THIS INFORMATION WHEN THEY 1
3 CAME TO TALK TO YOU? ~
j
4 A. YES.
5 Q. IN TERMS OF TALKING WITH THEM AT THAT TIME, DID
l
6
7
THEY ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT JOSUE WITNESSED THIS
ACCORDING TO WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
, l
8 A. YES.
9
10
11
IT?
Q.
A.
IN TERMS OF DID HE SEE IT OR DID HE HEAR ABOUT
AT THAT TIME I SAID THAT HE TOLD ME HE HEARD

,
l
;
12 THAT.
13 Q. WHY DID YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT AT THAT TIME?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
WERE YOU STILL FRIENDS WITH JOSUE AT THAT TIME?
l
l
16
17
18
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU THINK IF YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT JOSUE
WAS THERE THAT HE WOULD BE GETTING IN TROUBLE?
, 1
19 A. YES.
20 Q. HOW? l
21
22
A.
Q.
BECAUSE HE'S ON PROBATION.
AT THE TIME THE POLICE WERE TALKING TO YOU, DID
l
23 YOU TELL THEM THAT IT SOUNDED AS IF JOSUE ACTUALLY WAS
l
24 THERE?
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE CONVERSATION, WHEN YOU WERE
27 TELLING THE POLICE THIS, SOUNDED AS IF HE WAS THERE? l
28 A. BECAUSE HE SAID HE SAW.
l
l
r 642
r 1 Q. HE SAW THESE THINGS THAT YOU'VE TOLD US?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. AT ANY TIME DURING YOUR CONVERSATION WITH
JOSUE, THIS ONE IN THE PARK, DID HE SAY HE WAS JUST
r 5
6
TELLING YOU RUMORS?
A. NO.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DID HE SAY HE HEARD THIS ON THE STREET?
NO.
r 9 Q. DID HE SAY HE HEARD THIS FROM OTHER PEOPLE?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
NO.
WAS IT CLEAR TO YOU THAT HE WAS THERE FOR THIS
r 12
13
MURDER?
A. YES.
( 14 Q. YOU SAID YOU RECEIVED THREATS IN RELATION TO

15 THIS CASE; IS THAT CORRECT, MS. BERUMEN?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
THESE TOOK PLACE LAST MONDAY, CORRECT?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE A BROTHER?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
YOU HAVE SEVERAL BROTHERS, CORRECT?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
IS ONE OF YOUR BROTHERS HUMBERTO?
YES.
r 25 Q. AND THAT'S H-U-M-B-E-R-T-0?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
IS HE YOUR OLDER OR YOUNGER BROTHER?
r 28 A. YOUNGER BROTHER.
r
,
1 Q. HOW MUCH YOUNGER?
643
, 1
2
3
A.
Q.
THREE YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME.
DO YOU KNOW IF YOUR BROTHER IS OR WAS EVER A ,
4
5
MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
A. YES. , l
J
6 Q. IS HE CURRENTLY OR WAS HE?
7
8
A. HE WAS.
l
Q. WHEN HE WAS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN, WHAT WAS HIS
9 NAME? l
10 A. RIDER.
11 Q. R-I-D-E-R? l
12 A. UH-HUH.
l
13
14
15
Q.
A.
Q.
IS THAT A "YES"?
YES.
TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DOES YOUR BROTHER KNOW
, 1
16
17
18
JOSUE, THE SAME JOSUE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU ALSO KNOW SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF
,
l
J
19 ANGELINA CAMPOS?
20 A. YES. l
M/1\
21 Q. WHO IS ANGELINA CAMPOS?
1
22 A. ANGELINA CAMPOS WAS A FRIEND OF MINE.
23 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN ANGELINA CAMPOS?
l
24 A. SINCE I WAS LITTLE.
25 Q. HOW LITTLE? l
26 A. I WAS NINE.
27 Q. WERE YOU FRIENDS FOR A PERIOD OF TIME? l
28 A. YES.
1
l
r 644
r 1 Q. ARE YOU STILL FRIENDS?

r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHEN DID YOU STOP BEING FRIENDS?
AFTER MOISES' DEATH.
rl 5 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANGELINA CAMPOS KNOWS YOUR

6 BROTHER, HUMBERTO?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DO THEY KNOW EACH OTHER?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
THEY GO TO SCHOOL TOGETHER.
LAST MONDAY WERE THEY IN SCHOOL TOGETHER?
~
l 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. DID YOUR BROTHER TELL YOU ABOUT A CONVERSATION
HE HAD WITH ANGELINA CAMPOS LAST MONDAY?
L 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THE SAME DAY.
WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
r 18 A. HE TOLD ME ANGELINA CAMPOS TOLD HIM THAT I HAD
r 19
20
BETTER WATCH MY BACK AND NOT TO SHOW UP TO COURT BECAUSE
JOSUE TOLD HER TO TELL MY BROTHER TO LET ME KNOW NOT TO
r 21
22
SHOW UP TO COURT OR SAY ANYTHING THAT HE HAD TOLD ME.
Q. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU SHOWED UP TO COURT,
r 23
24
ACCORDING TO WHAT YOUR BROTHER TOLD YOU?
A. THEY WERE GOING TO BEAT ME UP OUTSIDE OF COURT.
r 25 Q. DID THEY USE ANY OTHER WORDS TO DESCRIBE YOU?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
LIKE?
EVER HEARD THE TERM "SNITCH"?
r 28 A. YES.
r
645
l
1
1 Q. WERE YOU CALLED A SNITCH?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. WHAT DOES A SNITCH MEAN TO YOU?
4 A. THAT I'M COMING OVER HERE TO COURT AND TELLING 1
5 THE JUDGE AND YOU WHAT I HEARD FROM JOSUE.
6 Q. DID YOU TELL ANYBODY YOU WERE COMING TO COURT?
7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
YET THIS PERSON, ANGELINA, THREATENED YOUR
l
9 BROTHER TO THREATEN YOU? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SPECIFICS YOUR BROTHER
12 TOLD YOU ABOUT THESE THREATS, SUCH AS, HOW WERE THEY
13 GOING TO BEAT YOU UP OR WHY THEY WERE GOING TO BEAT YOU
l
14
15
UP?
A. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT ME TO SAY ANYTHING.
l
16 Q. ANYTHING IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TODAY? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL WHEN YOU HEARD THAT? l
19 A. UNCOMFORTABLE.
20 Q. UNCOMFORTABLE HOW? l
21 A. LIKE I DON'T FEEL SAFE. ~
}
1
22 Q. DO YOU THINK THE THREATS ARE REAL?
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AS OPPOSED TO SOMEBODY JOKING AROUND?
1
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. DO YOU THINK IF SHE HAD THE CHANCE, ANGELINA
27 CAMPOS WOULD CARRY OUT THESE THREATS? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 646
r 1 Q. GIVEN THAT JOSUE WAS MENTIONED ALSO IN
r 2 CONJUNCTION WITH THESE THREATS, DO YOU FEEL HE IS A
r 3
4
THREAT TO YOU?
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
IN WHAT WAY?
BECAUSE HE'S STILL GOING TO BE CONTACTING
r 7
8
ANGELINA.
Q. DO YOU THINK HE HAS A ROLE IN THIS, ACCORDING
r 9 TO WHAT YOUR BROTHER TOLD YOU?
r 10
11
A. YES.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
r 14
15 TO YOU?
Q. DO YOU FEEL HE AND ANGELINA ARE EQUAL THREATS
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DOES THAT HAVE ANY EFFECT ON YOU BEING A
r 18 WITNESS HERE TODAY? ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT
r 19
20
NOW?
A. YES.
r
L
21 Q. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT?
22 A. THAT I KNOW THAT THEY'LL DO SOMETHING ABOUT
r 23
24
IT.
Q. DID YOU CONSIDER NOT TESTIFYING AS A RESULT OF
[ 25 THOSE THREATS?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY HAVE YOU MADE THE DECISION TO TESTIFY?
28 A. BECAUSE I HAD TO COME OVER HERE.

[
r
647
,
1
1 Q. WERE YOU FORCED TO COME HERE?
2 A. NO. 1
3 Q. YOU WERE SUBPOENAED, THOUGH, CORRECT?
4 A. CORRECT. 1
Q. THAT WAS BY MY OFFICE?
5
6 A. YES.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
DID ANYONE FORCE YOU TO COME INTO COURT TODAY?
NO.
l
9 Q. ARE YOU TESTIFYING ON YOUR OWN VOLUNTARY l
10 DECISION?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. WHY IS THAT?
13 A. BECAUSE MOISES WAS MY BOYFRIEND.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
DO YOU THINK IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO?
YES.
l
16 Q. GETTING BACK TO SHELLTOWN, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A l
17 MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WHEN WERE YOU A MEMBER?
20 A. WHEN I WAS 12.
1 i
21 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR NAME?

22 A. DOWNERS.
23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS THAT?
DOWNERS.
l
25 Q. DOWNERS? WHY DID YOU JOIN 38TH STREET? DO YOU l
26 KNOW WHY?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. WERE YOUR FRIENDS MEMBERS?
l
l
r 648
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. IN TERMS OF BEING A MEMBER, WERE YOU EVER
r 3
4
JUMPED IN?
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
BY MEN OR WOMEN?
MEN.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO JUMPED YOU IN?
LIL SPANKY, SPANKY AND CISCO.
r 9 Q. CISCO?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE DID THIS TAKE PLACE?
12 A. IT'S IN OCEAN VIEW PARK.
[ 13 Q. IS THIS THE PLACE MOST JUMPING-INS TAKE PLACE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
ARE YOU STILL A MEMBER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
WHEN DID YOU QUIT?
r 18 A. AFTER MOISES' DEATH.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHY?
I DON'T KNOW.
{'
21 Q. WHY DID YOU NO LONGER WANT TO BE A MEMBER AFTER
l
22 YOUR BOYFRIEND WAS KILLED?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO CONTINUE.
DID YOU QUIT AFTER HE WAS KILLED OR AFTER JOSUE
r 25 TOLD YOU WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
AFTER HE WAS KILLED.
IN TERMS OF JOSUE, HAVE YOU SEEN HIM WITH ANY
r 28 TATTOOS?
r
649
l
l
1 A. NO.
2 Q. HAS HE EVER TAKEN HIS SHIRT OFF AROUND YOU OR l
4 A. NO. l
5
6
Q.
MEMBERS?
HAVE YOU DATED ANY OTHER SHELLTOWN GANG
l
7 A.
Q.
NO.
IN TERMS OF ISMAEL ACEVES, IS HE A FRIEND OF
l
8
10
11
YOURS AS WELL?
A.
Q.
YES.
HAVE YOU EVER DATED HIM?
,
l
j
12 A. NO.
13 Q. IS THIS SOMEONE, THOUGH, THAT YOU WOULD HANG
l
14
15
OUT WITH?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. AND WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GROUP OF FOUR l
17 FRIENDS, SUCH AS MOISES, RAUL, ISMAEL AND JOSUE, WOULD
18 YOU HANG OUT WITH ANY OF THEM WITHOUT MOISES BEING 1
19 THERE?
20 A. NO. l
21
22
Q. HAVE YOU HUNG OUT WITH ANY OF THESE PEOPLE
AFTER MOISES'S DEATH?
l
23 A. YES.
l
24 Q. WHO?
25 A. ISMAEL ACEVES. l
26 Q. SO HE IS STILL A FRIEND OF YOURS?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. IN TERMS OF WHO WAS AT THE PARK FOR THE
l
l
r 650
r 1
r
KILLING, OTHER THAN JOSUE MENTIONING SIRIA, SPEEDY AND
2 VANDAL, DID HE MENTION ANY OTHER NAMES AS BEING PRESENT
r 3
4
IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT?
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT NAMES DID HE MENTION?
HE MENTIONED VICTOR, HE MENTIONED DANIEL
r 7
8
THEY CALL HIM TOKES -- VANDAL'S SISTER CAROL, AND I
DON'T REMEMBER THE REST OF THE NAMES.
r 9 Q. DID HE EVER MENTION THE NAME STALKER?
r 10 A. YES.
11 Q. WAS STALKER PRESENT, ACCORDING TO JOSUE?
12 A. YES.
[ 13 Q. WAS RAUL PRESENT, ACCORDING TO JOSUE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NOT THAT I REMEMBER.
WAS ISMAEL PRESENT, ACCORDING TO JOSUE?
[ 16 A. NO.
r 17
18
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE AT THE TIME I KNEW ISMAEL WAS IN TJ.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
TIJUANA?
YES.
r 21
22
Q. YOU EVER HEARD THE NAME JONATHAN OR A PERSON
NAMED JONATHAN?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU EVER HEARD OF THE NAME CROOKS?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
NOT LIL CROOKS, BUT CROOKS.
YES.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO CROOKS IS?
[ 28
r
651
1
.l
1
2
A.
Q.
A.
NO.
WHERE DID YOU HEAR THAT NAME?
RIGHT THERE IN THE PARK.
,
3
4 Q. IN TERMS OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE PRESENT
5
6
AT THE PARK, DID JOSUE TELL YOU THAT THERE WERE OTHER
PEOPLE THERE, BUT HE JUST DIDN'T KNOW THE NAMES, OR DID
l
HE GIVE YOU THE FULL LIST OF NAMES OF WHO HE REMEMBERED?
l
,
7
8 A. HE GAVE ME THE NAMES OF ALL THE PEOPLE HE

9
10
11
REMEMBERED THAT WAS THERE.
TODAY?
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ALL THOSE NAMES AS YOU SIT HERE , J
13 Q. YOU WEREN'T WRITING THIS DOWN?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
HUH?
YOU WEREN'T TAKING NOTES, WRITING THIS DOWN?
l
16 A. NO. l
17 Q. YOU MENTIONED THERE WAS A BARBECUE.
18 WAS IT AT A HOUSE OR WAS IT SOMEWHERE ELSE?
19 A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT WAS.
l
20
21
22
Q.
A.
Q.
IT WAS JUST JOSUE TOLD YOU ABOUT A BARBECUE?
YES.
DID HE TELL YOU WHERE THE BARBECUE TOOK PLACE?
, ~
23
24
A.
Q.
HE TOLD ME IT WAS AT A FRIEND'S HOUSE.
AND THIS WAS BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
1
25 A. YES. l
26 MR. TROCHA: ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR.
l
28 Ill
l
l
r 652
r
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 2 Q. LASTLY, MS. BERUMEN, WHEN MS. CAMPOS GAVE YOU
r 3
4
THIS INFORMATION TO TELL YOUR BROTHER, DID SHE EVER
MENTION -- DID YOUR BROTHER EVER MENTION TO YOU THAT
r 5
6
ANGELINA CAMPOS REFERENCED THE TOWN OR SHELLTOWN?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
IN WHAT WAY?
THAT EVERYBODY FROM SHELLTOWN WAS GOING TO GET
r 9 ME.
10 Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

r 11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHY?
[
13 A. BECAUSE IN THE PAST SHE HAS THREATENED ME, AND
r 14
15
SHE DID WHAT SHE HAS SAID.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THERE ARE OTHER MEMBERS OF

r
l_ 16 SHELLTOWN THAT WANT TO GET YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR
17 TESTIMONY?
r 18 A. YES.

r 20 THE COURT: BEGIN AT 1:30?
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES.
r 23
24
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR
CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER. PERMIT ME TO REMIND
r 25 YOU THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG

26 YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON ANY SUBJECT
r 27 CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL. DON'T FORM OR EXPRESS ANY
[ 28 OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR
r
l
1 DECISION.
653
,
2 PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE l
3 CHAIRS. LET'S PLAN ON RECONVENING AT 1:30 THIS
4 AFTERNOON. THANK YOU. 1
5
6
MS. BERUMEN, THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN AND
LEAVE WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR.
l
7
8
l
9
10
11
ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM.
PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.
JURORS WAS LEAVING, HE ASKED, "DO WE NEED THESE
ALL
AS ONE OF THE ,
l
~
12 ANYMORE?" HE WAS REFERRING, I THINK, TO THE TRANSCRIPT

13 OF THE INTERVIEW OF MS. QUINTANILLA, WHICH IS 240-A. I
l
14
15
THINK WE GAVE EACH JUROR A COPY OF IT.
I'M GOING TO DIRECT THAT THOSE COPIES BE
1
16 COLLECTED AND JUST PUT ON COUNSEL TABLE HERE. WE'LL l
17 SEND A COPY OR TWO BACK IN THE JURY ROOM WITH THEM, BUT
18 THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO HAVE THOSE TRANSCRIPTS IN 1
19 THE MEANTIME.
20 ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, THANK YOU, BOTH. WE'LL l
21
22
SEE YOU BACK HERE AT 1:30. WE ARE IN RECESS.
l
23 BE RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
24 Ill
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
Ill
28
l
l
[
654
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, APRIL 4, 2011; 1:35 PM
r 2
r 3
4
r 5
6
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS HAVE ENTERED THE
r 7
8
COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
I WAS REMINDED THAT I HAD NEGLECTED TO COLLECT
r 9 THE TRANSCRIPTS WHICH YOU WERE GIVEN OF THE AUDIO

10 RECORDING INVOLVING MS. QUINTANILLA. MAY I ASK THAT YOU
r 11 PASS THOSE TO THE RIGHT-HAND END, AND THEN DEPUTY TRAPP
r 12
13
WILL COLLECT THOSE.
JURY ROOM.
YOU WILL HAVE COPIES OF THEM IN THE
NO POINT IN MAKING YOUR SURROUNDINGS MORE
r 14
15
CLUTTERED THAN THEY HAVE TO BE PENDING THAT TIME.
MAY WE HAVE MS. BERUMEN.
r 16
17
MS. BERUMEN, THANK YOU.
THE WITNESS STAND.
PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT
WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE YOU RAISE
r 18 YOUR RIGHT HAND AND SWEAR AGAIN, BUT I NEED TO REMIND
19 YOU THAT THAT OATH YOU TOOK THIS MORNING IS STILL ON.
L 20 DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
r 21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
YOU STILL HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH.
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
r 25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY EXAMINE.
r 26
27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
655
l
l
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. BERUMEN.
l
5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO
PASS OUT SOME TRANSCRIPTS TO THE JURORS.
l
7 THE COURT: THE REFERENCED PORTION THAT WE
l
8 SPOKE OF EARLIER?
,
9
10
11
AUDIO HAS BEEN SUBMITTED AS EXHIBIT KK.
THE COURT: IT HAS.
I BELIEVE THAT THE
, l
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THE TRANSCRIPT YOU HAVE,

13 THE EXHIBIT COPY, WHAT EXHIBIT IS THAT?
l
14
15
THE COURT: JJ.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JJ. THANK YOU.
l
1
16
17
18
THE COURT:
ABOUT THAT LIMITED CLIP?
AND WE ARE ONLY GOING TO BE TALKING

, r
19 THE COURT: YOU'RE PLAYING THE WHOLE THING?

20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO. I'M GOING TO PLAY l
21
22
PORTIONS DURING CROSS-EXAMINATION.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. FOLKS, WE'LL BE HANDING
1
23
24
25
OUT THIS TRANSCRIPT. IT WILL BE AN AUDIO RECORDING.
YOU'LL HEAR PORTIONS OF THAT AUDIO RECORDING.
ONCE AGAIN, THE REPORTERS WON'T BE TAKING
,
1
~
26 ANYTHING DOWN WHEN THE AUDIO IS BEING PLAYED. I ASK

27 THAT YOU NOT LOOK AT THE TRANSCRIPT. DON'T BE READING l
28 IT AHEAD. JUST LOOK AT THE PORTIONS TO WHICH COUNSEL
l
l
[
656
r 1 DIRECTS OUR ATTENTION WHEN THE PARTICULAR AUDIO

[ 2 RECORDINGS ARE PLAYED.
3 IT MAY BE THAT BY THE TIME THE DUST SETTLES,
[ 4 YOU'LL HAVE HEARD THE WHOLE THING. BUT AT LEAST RIGHT
[ 5 NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SELECTED PORTIONS, SO PLEASE

6 DON'T READ THE TRANSCRIPTS. IT'S NOT IN EVIDENCE YET.
r 7
8
IT WON'T BE UNTIL YOU HEAR THE RECORDING, AND THEN THE
AUDIO RECORDING WILL BE THE EVIDENTIARY PORTION.
r 9
10
MR. JUROR NO. 9, DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION?
JUROR NO. 9: IS THE AUDIOTAPE EVIDENCE, YOUR
[ 11 HONOR?
r 12
13 YES.
THE COURT: THE AUDIO CD WILL BE IN EVIDENCE,
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU WILL HAVE THAT BACK IN THE
r 14
15
JURY ROOM. AND IF THERE ARE ONLY EXCERPTED PORTIONS OF
THE INTERVIEW THAT ARE PUT BEFORE YOU, THEN I WILL HAVE
r 16
17
A CD MADE OF THOSE EXCERPTED PORTIONS THAT YOU WILL HAVE
BACK IN THE JURY ROOM, ALONG WITH THE TRANSCRIPTS.
r 18 AGAIN, THE TRANSCRIPTS ARE MERELY AN AID TO
19 HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THE EVIDENCE, WHICH IS THE
[ 20 RECORDING.
r 21
22 COURTESY COPY?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU LIKE A
AND I CAN PUT THAT ON THE TABLE.
r 23
24
THE COURT:
THAT WOULD BE FINE. THANK YOU.
r 25 Q. MS. BERUMEN, I WANT TO BRIEFLY GO OVER THE

26 CIRCUMSTANCES TO WHICH YOU BECAME INVOLVED IN THIS CASE.
[ 27 YOUR INVOLVEMENT STEMS FROM A PHONE CALL TO THE
r 28 POLICE DEPARTMENT, CORRECT?
r
657
l
1
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. YOU CALLED DETECTIVE JOE HOWIE. 1
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND HOW DID YOU KNOW TO CONTACT HIM? l
5
6
A. BECAUSE I SPOKE TO MOISES' MOM AND SHE GAVE ME
THAT NUMBER.
l
7 Q. YOU HAD SPOKE TO MOISES'S MOM ABOUT THIS CLOSE
l
8 TO THE TIME YOU CALLED MR. HOWIE?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. AND THEN SHORTLY AFTER YOUR CALL, YOU WERE
11 INTERVIEWED BY POLICE DETECTIVES, CORRECT? l
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY POLICE DETECTIVES ON
1
14
15
SEPTEMBER 8, 2010, CORRECT?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE.
l
16 Q. IT WAS ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS AGO? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND THEN AFTER THAT, YOU WERE INTERVIEWED AGAIN l
19 ON FEBRUARY 28, 2011, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. l
21
22
Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE SPECIFICALLY ON
THAT, DO YOU?
l
23 A. NO, I DON'T.
l
24 Q. BUT IT WAS, WHAT, ABOUT A MONTH AGO, RIGHT?
25 A. I THINK SO. l
26 Q. OKAY. AND SO THE PRIOR STATEMENTS YOU'VE GIVEN
27 ARE TO THE POLICE DETECTIVES IN SEPTEMBER OF 2010 AND TO l
28 THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN 2011, CORRECT?
1
l
[
658
[
1 A. CORRECT.
[ 2 Q. OKAY. MS. GUTIERREZ, YOU STATED THAT THIS
r 3
4
CONVERSATION
THE COURT: MS. BERUMEN.
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
WHAT DID I CALL HER?
GUTIERREZ.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MS. BERUMEN.
EXCUSE ME. I APOLOGIZE,
r 10
11
Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU STATED THAT THIS CONVERSATION
THAT YOU HAD WITH MR. GUTIERREZ HAPPENED ABOUT A MONTH
r 12
13
AFTER THE SHOOTING OF MOISES LOPEZ, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR ON FEBRUARY 28,
r 16 2011, YOU STATED TO THEM THAT THE CONVERSATION HAPPENED
r
17 THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING, CORRECT?
19 Q. WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IF I SHOWED

r_
20 YOU A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT?
r 21
22
A. YES.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING THE WITNESS,
[ 23 YOUR HONOR.
r 26
27
Q. DO YOU SEE THE HIGHLIGHTED PORTION,
MS. BERUMEN?
r 28 A. YES.
f
1 Q. WOULD YOU PLEASE READ THAT, NOT OUT LOUD, TO
659
,
l
J
2
3
4
YOURSELF.
A.
Q.
UH-HUH.
LOOK AT ME WHEN YOU'RE DONE READING.
,
1
1
5
6
DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHAT
YOU SAID TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
AND SO AT THAT DATE YOU TOLD HIM THAT THIS
l
9 CONVERSATION HAPPENED THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING, l
10 CORRECT?
11 A. CORRECT. l
12
13
Q.
RIGHT?
AND IT WASN'T 30 DAYS AFTER THE SHOOTING,
1
14
15
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
TURNING THE COURT AND COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO
l
16 THE TRANSCRIPT AND AUDIO, I'M GOING TO PLAY A PORTION l
17 THEREOF.
18 THE COURT: THANK YOU. EXHIBIT KK IS THE 1
19 ACTUAL AUDIO RECORDING, JJ IS THE TRANSCRIPT.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IN THE TRANSCRIPT, IT'S l
21
22
GOING TO PAGE -- ON PAGE 2, LINES 12 THROUGH 19.
THE COURT: MAY I INVITE THE JURORS TO LOOK AT
l
23
24
PAGE 2, LINES 12 THROUGH 19.
1
26 Q. MS. BERUMEN, THAT'S A STATEMENT YOU MADE TO THE
27 POLICE DETECTIVES WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWED IN l
28 SEPTEMBER, IS IT NOT?
l
1
[
660
[
1
r
A. WHAT WAS THAT?
2 Q. IS THAT NOT THE STATEMENT THAT YOU MADE TO THE
r 3
4
POLICE DETECTIVES IN SEPTEMBER?
A. IT IS.
r 5
6
Q. AND AT THAT POINT YOU TOLD THEM THAT THE
STATEMENT THAT YOU HEARD FROM MR. GUTIERREZ WAS ABOUT
[ 7 TWO MONTHS PRIOR TO THAT.
8 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. IT'S NOT WHAT IT
r 9 STATED IN THE TRANSCRIPT.
r 10
11
THE COURT:
REPHRASE, PLEASE.
12 Q. YOU STATED, "WELL, A COUPLE OF GUYS THAT USED

[ 13 TO HANG OUT WITH HIM, I SEEN THEM, LIKE, NOT THAT LONG
r 14
15
AGO, LIKE, A COUPLE OF MONTHS, LIKE, PROBABLY FOUR
MONTHS AGO," CORRECT? THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID THEN, RIGHT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I THINK SO.
THIS CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH THE

r 18 DETECTIVES, THIS IS ABOUT THE SAME THING THAT YOU
19 TESTIFIED TO THIS MORNING, RIGHT?

r 20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. IT'S ABOUT THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH JOSUE
GUTIERREZ, RIGHT?
c 23
24
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YOUR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING WAS THAT IT
r 25
26
HAPPENED 30 DAYS AFTER THE SHOOTING, WHICH WOULD HAVE
BEEN IN OCTOBER OF 2008, RIGHT?

[ 27 A. RIGHT.
r 28 Q. BUT WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE DETECTIVES IN
r
1
661
, J
1 SEPTEMBER, YOU SAID IT HAPPENED ABOUT FOUR MONTHS PRIOR

2 TO SEPTEMBER OF 2010, CORRECT? 1
3 A. CORRECT.
l
4
5
6
Q. YOU ALSO TOLD THEM THAT IT HAPPENED ON A
WEEKDAY, RIGHT?
A. YES.
,
7 Q. NOW, YOU KNOW MOISES WAS SHOT ON A SATURDAY,
l
8 RIGHT?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. SO IF YOU HAD TALKED TO MR. GUTIERREZ THE DAY
11
12
13
AFTER HE WAS SHOT, MOISES LOPEZ, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A
SUNDAY, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
,
1
j
14
15
Q.
A.
NOT A WEEKDAY; IS THAT CORRECT?
THAT'S CORRECT.
l
l
16
17
18
Q. SO WHEN YOU TOLD THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
INVESTIGATOR THAT IT WAS THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING, YOU
WEREN'T TELLING THE TRUTH, WERE YOU?
,
l
20
21
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER IT.
I DON'T REMEMBER. ,
22
23
24
Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF YOU TOLD THE DISTRICT
ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR THE TRUTH?
,
25 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. 1
27 THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER. l
28 Ill
l
l
[
662
r 2 Q. SO WHO WAS WITH MR. GUTIERREZ WHEN YOU HAD THIS
r 3
4
CONVERSATION?
A. SOME GIRL. THEY CALLED HER ROWDY.
r 5
6
Q. ROWDY. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO
EARLIER THIS MORNING, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU INTERVIEWED WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r 9 INVESTIGATOR, YOU TOLD HIM THAT JULIO AND ROWDY WAS WITH
r
10 MR. GUTIERREZ WHEN THE STATEMENTS WERE MADE, CORRECT?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DRAWING THE COURT AND
[ 13 COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO PAGE 3 OF THE TRANSCRIPT, LINES
r 14
15
10 AND 11
THE COURT: THANK YOU. ARE YOU GOING TO PLAY
r 16 THOSE FOR THE JURY?

17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I AM.
r 18 THE COURT: THANK YOU. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,
r 19
20
PAGE 3, LINES 10 AND 11.
r 21
22
THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT WE
HAVE HEARD PAGE 3, LINES 10 THROUGH THE BEGINNING OF
r 23
24
LINE 18.
r 26
27
Q. SO DURING THE POLICE INTERVIEW IN SEPTEMBER,
ACTUALLY YOU TOLD THEM IT WAS JULIO AND VICTOR WHO WAS
28 WITH YOU AND MR. GUTIERREZ WHEN THE STATEMENTS WERE
r
r
663
,
l
1 MADE, CORRECT?
2 A. CORRECT. 1
3 Q. THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU TOLD THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
4 INVESTIGATOR IN FEBRUARY, CORRECT? l
5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO THIS
l
7 MORNING, CORRECT?
1
8 A. CORRECT.
9 Q. IN FACT, IN THE INTERVIEW IN SEPTEMBER, YOU l
10 NEVER MENTIONED ROWDY, DID YOU?
11 A. NO, I DIDN'T. l '
12 Q. YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM ABOUT HER BEING THERE.
13 A. NO.
l
14
15
Q. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU FIRST STATED IN
FEBRUARY OF 2011, CORRECT?
l
l
16
17
18
19
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AFTER MR. TROCHA AND AN INVESTIGATOR FROM THE
D.A.'S OFFICE INTERVIEWED YOU, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
,
20 Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT THAT THE l
21
22
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT BROUGHT YOU TO THE PARK THAT DAY WAS
THAT YOU WERE WALKING FROM YOUR AUNT'S HOUSE, CORRECT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I WAS WALKING TOWARDS MY AUNT'S HOUSE.
WHERE WERE YOU WALKING FROM?
l
25 A. FROM MY HOUSE. l
26 Q. YOU WERE WALKING FROM YOUR HOME TO YOUR AUNT'S
27 HOUSE? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 664
r 1 Q. WHEN YOU INTERVIEWED WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r 2 INVESTIGATOR, YOU TOLD HIM THAT YOU WERE COMING FROM
~
3 SCHOOL THAT DAY, RIGHT?
( 4 A. RIGHT.
r 5
6
Q. SO AGAIN YOU'RE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH TO THE
INVESTIGATOR.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOT
r 9 TELLING THE TRUTH AND BEING MISTAKEN. I THINK THAT'S
r
10 SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN EXPLORE ON REDIRECT EXAMINATION.
11 OVERRULED.
12 MA'AM, WERE YOU NOT TELLING THE TRUTH OR WERE
r 13 YOU MISTAKEN OR
r 14
15
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
I WAS MISTAKEN.
ON WHAT?
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
I DIDN'T REMEMBER.
ALL RIGHT. NEXT QUESTION.
r 18
19
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: TURNING THE COURT AND
COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO PAGE 15, LINES 23 THROUGH 27, I'M
r 20 GOING TO PLAY THIS, YOUR HONOR.
r 21
22
THE COURT: YOU MAY. INVITING THE JURORS'
ATTENTION TO THAT REFERENCED SECTION, PAGE 15, LINES 15
r 23
24
THROUGH 27.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 23 THROUGH 27.
r 25 THE COURT: THANK YOU. 23 THROUGH 27.
r 26
27
THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL REFLECT LINES 23
r 28 THROUGH 28 WERE PLAYED FOR THE JURY.
r
665
l
l
2 THE COURT: PAGE 15. 1
4 Q. SO IN THE INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE DETECTIVES 1

5
6
IN SEPTEMBER, YOU TOLD THEM YOU HAD JUST GOTTEN OFF A
BUS AND WERE WALKING FROM SCHOOL, RIGHT? IS THAT WHAT
l
7 YOU JUST HEARD?
A. YES.
l
8
9 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT? l
10 A. YES, I DO.
11 Q. AND YOUR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING WAS THAT -- OR l
12
13
JUST NOW IS THAT YOU WERE COMING FROM YOUR OWN HOME,
CORRECT?
1
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU REMEMBER ON DIRECT -- OR LET ME ASK YOU

l
16 THIS: WHY DID MR. GUTIERREZ SAY THAT HE THOUGHT THAT 1
17 SPEEDY SHOT MOISES?
18 A. WHY DID HE SAY THAT? l
19 Q. YEAH.
20 A. BECAUSE HE SAID HE WAS PRESENT THAT DAY. l

Q. HE WAS WHAT?
l
,
21
22 A. HE WAS PRESENT THAT DAY.
23 Q. I MISSED --
24 A. HE WAS RIGHT THERE.
25 THE COURT: "HE WAS PRESENT THAT DAY," IS WHAT l
26 SHE SAID.
28 Q. LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION, MS. BERUMEN.
l
l
r 666
r 1 DID MR. GUTIERREZ TELL YOU WHY HE THOUGHT
r 2 SPEEDY SHOT MOISES?

A. YES.
r
3
4 Q. WHY DID HE SAY THAT?
r 5
6
A. BECAUSE HE HAD DONE
SHOT SOMEONE ELSE AND MOISES WAS THERE.
I GUESS HE HAD ALREADY
r 7
8
Q.
A.
MOISES WITNESSED HIM SHOOTING SOMEBODY ELSE?
YES.
r 9 Q. AND THAT'S WHY HE SAID IT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
THAT'S WHY HE SAID IT.
ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU FIRST CONTACT THE
r 12
13
POLICE IN THIS CASE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WAS IT CLOSE TO THE DATE THAT MOISES WAS SHOT?
NO.
r 16
17
Q. WAS IT CLOSE TO THE DATE THAT MR. GUTIERREZ HAD
MADE THESE STATEMENTS TO YOU?
r 18 A. IT WAS PROBABLY, YEAH. I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 19
20
Q.
POLICE?
YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHEN YOU FIRST CONTACTED THE
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO, I DON'T.
WAS IT -- DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR INTERVIEW IN
r 23
24
SEPTEMBER WITH THE POLICE?
A. YES.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
HOW CLOSE TO IT WAS IT TO THAT DATE?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 27 Q. CAN YOU ESTIMATE?
r 28 A. NO.
r
667
,
l
1 Q. IT WASN'T THE SAME DAY THAT MR. GUTIERREZ MADE
2 THE STATEMENTS TO YOU, THOUGH, CORRECT? l
3 A. CORRECT.
~
4 Q. IT WAS A DIFFERENT DATE. J
5 A. YES, IT WAS.
6 Q. WAS IT MORE THAN A WEEK AFTER THAT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
IF HE -- AGAIN, HAVING HEARD YOUR RECORDING,
l
9 WHEN DID MR. GUTIERREZ MAKE THESE STATEMENTS TO YOU? l
10 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
11 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER. l
12 WHAT'S YOUR BEST MEMORY NOW AS TO WHEN JOSUE
13 TOLD YOU THESE THINGS? l
14
15 HAPPENED.
THE WITNESS: AFTER THE ACCIDENT, WHATEVER
l
17 Q. SO IT WASN'T A FEW MONTHS BEFORE YOU TALKED TO
18 THE POLICE IN SEPTEMBER? l
19 A. NO.
20 Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU FIRST CONTACTED THE POLICE, l
21 IT WAS A DIFFERENT DATE THAN WHEN MR. GUTIERREZ --
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. -- TOLD YOU.
TURNING THE COURT AND COUNSEL'S ATTENTION TO

l
25 PAGE 15, LINES 3 THROUGH 6. l
26 THE COURT: THANK YOU. INVITING THE JURY'S
27 ATTENTION TO THAT SECTION, PLEASE. l
28 (AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.}
l
l
r 668
r 2 Q. MS. BERUMEN, ON SEPTEMBER 8, 2010, THAT YOU
r 3
4
JUST HEARD, YOU WERE TALKING TO THE DETECTIVE ABOUT THE
DAY YOU HAD CALLED THE POLICE INITIALLY, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU HAD INDICATED THAT YOU CALLED THE SAME
r 7
8
DAY THAT MR. GUTIERREZ HAD TALKED TO YOU, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 9
10
Q. AND IF THE STATEMENT WAS MADE THE DAY AFTER
MOISES'S DEATH, THAT MEANT YOU WOULD HAVE CALLED -- IF
r 11 THAT'S TRUE, YOU WOULD HAVE CALLED THE DAY AFTER HIS
r 12
13
DEATH, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. AND IF IT WAS A MONTH AFTER HIS DEATH, THEN YOU
WOULD HAVE CALLED ABOUT A MONTH AFTER HIS DEATH, RIGHT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND A MONTH AFTER HIS DEATH, AGAIN, IS ABOUT
r 18 OCTOBER OF 2008, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
BUT THE DETECTIVES DIDN'T INTERVIEW YOU UNTIL
r 21
22
SEPTEMBER OF 2010, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
IT'S ALMOST TWO YEARS LATER, RIGHT?
RIGHT.
r 25
26
Q. SO HAVING HEARD THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR
CONVERSATION WITH MR. GUTIERREZ -- DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE
r 27 A BETTER ESTIMATE NOW OF WHEN IT WAS?
r 28 A. NO.
r
669
1
l
1 Q. BUT IT WASN'T A MONTH AFTER, WAS IT?
2 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. 1 J
3 Q. OKAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT THESE THREATS THAT YOU

4 SAID YOU GOT THIS MORNING. l
5 YOU WERE NEVER PERSONALLY THREATENED, WERE YOU?
6 A. I HAVE BEFORE.
J
7
8
Q.
A.
BY WHO?
BY ANGELINA CAMPOS.
l
9 Q. SAME GIRL THAT THREATENED YOU THIS TIME? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SHE THREATENED YOU PERSONALLY WHEN? l
12 A. IT WAS ON OCTOBER 5TH OF LAST YEAR.
13 Q. AND WHAT WAS THAT REGARDING? l
14
15
A.
Q.
THE SAME THING.
OCTOBER 5TH OF THIS YEAR?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. THAT WAS ABOUT A MONTH AFTER YOU GAVE POLICE
18 THIS STATEMENT, RIGHT? l
19 A. I THINK SO.
20 Q. DID YOU TELL ANYBODY ELSE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN l
21 TO THE POLICE?
22 A. DID I TELL ANYBODY ELSE? NO.
l
23
24
Q. SO IT WAS JUST YOU AND, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, THE
DETECTIVES WHO KNEW THAT YOU HAD GIVEN A STATEMENT,
l
25 CORRECT? l
26 A. CORRECT.
27 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE l
28 EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.
l
,
r 670
r 1 THE COURT: IN WHAT WAY? I MISSED THAT.
r 2 MR. TROCHA: WE DO HAVE CRIMINAL DISCOVERY.
r 3
4 EVIDENCE.
THE COURT:
SUSTAINED.
WELL, THAT'S NOT REALLY IN
SUSTAINED.
r 5
6
Q. SO IT WAS AT THIS POINT SHE STARTED THREATENING
r 7
8
YOU ABOUT THE STATEMENTS YOU MADE?
A. SHE HAS DONE IT BEFORE.
r 9 Q. BEFORE THAT, EVEN?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN DID SHE THREATEN YOU BEFORE THAT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THIS WAS ON MARCH 9, 2008.
MARCH 9TH OF 2008 WOULD HAVE BEEN
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO. NO. I'M SORRY.
MARCH 9TH OF 2009?
THAT WAS IN 2009.
r 16 A. YES.
r
17 Q. AND WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?
18 A. THE SAME THING.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
SHE THREATENED YOU ABOUT THIS CASE?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
THAT DATE?
HAD YOU TOLD ANYBODY ABOUT THESE STATEMENTS AT
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
AND YOU HADN'T SPOKEN TO THE POLICE AT THAT
r 25 POINT?
r
26 A. YES, I DID A POLICE REPORT.
27 Q. YOU SPOKE TO THE POLICE PRIOR TO SEPTEMBER 8,
r 28 2010?
r
671
,
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. REGARDING THIS CASE? l
3 A. YES.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MOTION FOR SIDEBAR, YOUR l
5 HONOR.
6 THE COURT: LET'S PUT THE SIDEBAR RULE IN
l
7
8
EFFECT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
STRETCH AMONG YOURSELVES.
FEEL FREE TO STAND,
WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD.
l
9 MS. BERUMEN, JUST SIT RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, l
10 PLEASE.
11 (SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.) l
12 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
13 WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD. ALL ARE PRESENT. YOU MAY l
14
15
CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION, MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
l
l
17 Q. SO, MS. BERUMEN, YOU HAVE A HISTORY WITH THIS
18 ANGELINA CAMPOS PERSON. l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. SHE THREATENED SHE'S BEEN THREATENING YOU ON l
21 AND OFF FOR A LONG TIME.
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
NOT EVERY TIME HAS BEEN REGARDING THIS CASE.
THAT'S TRUE.
l
25 Q. SHE'S BEEN THREATENING YOU FOR THINGS UNRELATED l
26 TO THIS CASE.
27 A. AND RELATED TO THIS CASE. l
28 Q. AND, AGAIN, THE ANSWER TO SOME OF THOSE THINGS
l
,
J
r 672
r 1 BEING UNRELATED TO THIS CASE IS YES?
r 2 A. YES.
3 Q. HOW LONG HAS SHE BEEN THREATENING YOU FOR?
r 4 A. WELL, EVER SINCE THAT HAPPENED. THE FIRST TIME
r 5
6
SHE THREATENED ME, IT WAS ON MARCH 9, 2009.
Q. DURING YOUR INTERVIEW ON SEPTEMBER 8, 2010, YOU
r 7
8
HAD MENTIONED MS. CAMPOS TO THE POLICE DETECTIVES AT
THAT POINT, CORRECT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
BUT YOU NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT HER
r 11 THREATENING YOU AT THAT POINT, RIGHT?
r 13 Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER YOU HAD
r 14
15
TOLD THE POLICE DETECTIVES WHETHER OR NOT MS. CAMPOS HAD
BEEN THREATENING YOU AT THAT POINT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DURING DIRECT EXAMINATION, YOU STATED THAT
r 18 GUTIERREZ HAD TOLD YOU THAT SPEEDY WAS AT A BARBECUE
r 19
20
THAT DAY, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. THAT SPEEDY WAS HANGING OUT AT WHAT THEY CALL A
CARNE ASADA.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND SPEEDY WAS PRESENT AT THAT CARNE ASADA.
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THAT HE WAS THERE WHEN MOISES WAS THERE,
r 27 CORRECT?
28 A. CORRECT.
r
r
673
,
l
1
2
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR.
YOU MAY.
, J
4 Q. AS FAR AS THE FACTS THAT MR. GUTIERREZ TOLD l
5 YOU, HE TOLD YOU THAT AFTER SPEEDY HAD SHOT MOISES,
6 SPEEDY GOT INTO A CAR WITH SIRIA.
l
l
,
7 A. WITH CIDIA AND VANDAL.
8 Q. AND THAT THEY DROVE AWAY AND SIRIA WAS DRIVING.
9 A. YES. J
10 Q. AND GUTIERREZ SAID, "I SAW THIS HAPPEN"?

11 A. YES. l
12 Q. HE SAID GUTIERREZ SAID, "I SAW SPEEDY DRIVE
13 AWAY WITH SIRIA." l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
"AND VANDAL WAS IN THE CAR."
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. OKAY. SO GUTIERREZ DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A
18 CAR BEING PARKED IN AN ALLEY, RIGHT? HE NEVER MENTIONED l
19 THAT.
21 Q. DID HE EVER MENTION A CAR SAY, A CAR
22 BELONGING TO SIRIA FORD BEING LEFT IN THE ALLEY? DID HE
l
23
24
EVER MENTION ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
l
25 Q. DO YOU NOT REMEMBER OR IS THE ANSWER, NO, HE l
26 DIDN'T SAY THAT?
28 Q. WHEN HE DESCRIBED THE BEATING OF MOISES, HE
l
l
r 674
r 1 SAID THAT SPEEDY BEAT HIM UP, RIGHT?
r 2
3
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT HE DIDN'T SAY ANYBODY ELSE WAS INVOLVED.
r 5
6 NO?
Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER HE SAID IT OR IT'S
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
MS. BERUMEN, DIDN'T YOU SAY ON DIRECT THAT HE
r 9
10
JUST SAID SPEEDY BEAT HIM UP?
A. YES.
r 11 Q. SO ON DIRECT YOU REMEMBERED THE ANSWER TO THAT
r 12
13
QUESTION?
A. YES.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA:
TESTIMONY, YOUR HONOR.
r 16
17
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
WHAT WAS THE TESTIMONY?
I BELIEVE IT WAS, "DO YOU REMEMBER
r 18 IF HE SAID OTHER PEOPLE WERE BEATING UP MOISES IN
r 19
20
ADDITION TO SPEEDY?"
REMEMBER."
AND THE RESPONSE WAS, "I DON'T
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE TESTIMONY.
WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT WAS
r 23
24
THE COURT:
TRIERS OF FACT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, YOU ARE THE
YOU'LL MAKE THE FINAL DECISION AS TO
r 25
26
THE CREDIBILITY OF THE WITNESSES.
CONSISTENCES AND INCONSISTENCIES.
THIS INCLUDES ANY
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY ASK ABOUT IT. THE
r 28 OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. REASK, PLEASE.
r
675
l
l
2 Q. DURING DIRECT, YOU SAID THAT IF SPEEDY -- IF HE l
3 SAW ANYBODY ELSE BEATING UP MOISES. YOU SAID "NO,"
4 RIGHT? l
5 A. WHAT WAS THAT?
6 Q. ON DIRECT, YOU STATED EARLIER THAT WHEN
l
7
8
GUTIERREZ TOLD YOU HE SAW SPEEDY BEATING UP MOISES, HE
SAID HE DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY ELSE JOINING IN.
l
9 THE COURT: LET ME INTERJECT FOR A MOMENT. l
10 DO YOU KNOW WHAT DIRECT IS? WHEN YOU WERE
11 QUESTIONED THIS MORNING BY MR. TROCHA, YOU WERE ASKED l
12 SOME QUESTIONS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHEN
13 WE TALK ABOUT DIRECT.
l
14
15
WOULD YOU PLEASE REPHRASE THE QUESTION,
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, TO MAKE THIS CLEAR TO THE WITNESS.
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
l
18 Q. EARLIER THIS MORNING, YOU WERE ANSWERING l
19 QUESTIONS POSED BY MR. TROCHA, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. l
21 Q. AND DURING THOSE QUESTIONS, ONE OF THE
22 QUESTIONS WAS: WHEN YOU SAW -- WHEN GUTIERREZ TOLD YOU
l
23
24
WHAT HE SAW, HE SAID HE SAW SPEEDY BEATING UP MOISES,
RIGHT?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. AND THAT ONE OF THE QUESTIONS WAS: DID HE SAY
27 HE SAW ANYBODY ELSE BEATING UP MOISES? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 676
r 1 Q. HIS ANSWER-- HIS ANSWER TO YOU WAS "NO,"
r 2 RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
SO MR. GUTIERREZ TOLD YOU, "NO, NOBODY ELSE WAS
r 5
6
HELPING BEAT UP MOISES BESIDES SPEEDY"?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
YOU STATED DURING QUESTIONING THIS MORNING THAT
r 9 YOU KNEW SPEEDY'S SISTER, RIGHT?

A. RIGHT.
r
10
11 Q. WHAT'S HER NAME?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW HER NAME.
WHAT DOES SHE LOOK LIKE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
HOW OLD IS SHE?
r 16
17
A. SHE'S LIKE AROUND 20-SOMETHING, 25, SOMETHING
LIKE THAT.
r 18
19
Q.
A.
WHERE DID YOU MEET HER?
RIGHT HERE IN THE COURTHOUSE.
r 20 Q. YOU MET HER IN THE COURTHOUSE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY WERE YOU AT THE COURTHOUSE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
BECAUSE THEY TOLD ME I HAVE TO COME OVER HERE.
WHEN WAS THIS?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE.
WHO TOLD YOU YOU HAD TO BE HERE?
r 27 A. I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAME, BUT IT WAS A ATTORNEY.
r 28 Q. FROM THE D.A.'S OFFICE?
r
677
,
l
l
2
3
4
Q.
A.
Q.
WAS IT REGARDING THIS CASE?
YES.
SO YOU'VE BEEN IN COURT REGARDING THIS CASE
,
5 BEFORE?
1 J
6 A. YES.
7
8
Q.
A.
HOW MANY MONTHS AGO WAS IT?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
l
9 Q. DID YOU WATCH ANY PRIOR HEARINGS IN THIS CASE? l
10 A. NO.
11 Q. BUT YOU SHOWED UP FOR THEM? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT YOU HAD BEEN JUMPED l
14
15
IN TO SHELLTOWN.
A. YES.
l
16 Q. HOW OLD WERE YOU?
l
17 A. 12.
18 Q. AND WHO JUMPED YOU IN? l
19 A. IT WAS CISCO, LIL SPANKY AND SPANKY.
20 Q. HOW OLD IS LIL SPANKY? l
21 A. HE'S LIKE 16.
22 Q. AND HOW OLD IS SPANKY?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
SPANKY'S LIKE 28.
AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THEM?
l
25 A. BECAUSE THEY HANGED OUT AT THE PARK. l
26 Q. NOW, DURING THE INTERVIEW WITH POLICE IN
27 SEPTEMBER, THEY TOLD YOU -- YOU HAD TOLD THEM THAT l
28 SOMEBODY HAD TRIED TO CONTACT YOU, RIGHT?
l
1
r 678
r 2
3
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THEM THAT SOMEBODY CAME
r
TO YOUR HOUSE TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS, BUT IT WAS ON A
4 UNRELATED CASE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
OH, YES.
AND SOMEBODY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS, WANTED
r 7
8
TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q. AND ONE OF THE DETECTIVES TOLD YOU THAT IF THAT
HAPPENS AGAIN THAT YOU SHOULDN'T TALK TO THAT PERSON.
r 11 DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
SO THE POLICE DETECTIVES TOLD YOU THAT IF, SAY,
r 14
15
AN INVESTIGATOR WANTED TO TALK TO YOU, YOU SHOULD REFUSE
TO SPEAK TO THEM, RIGHT?
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
TESTIMONY.
r 19
20
Q. THE DETECTIVE TOLD YOU THAT IF SOMEBODY WANTS
r 21
22
TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS CASE -- DID THE DETECTIVES SAY
NOT TO SPEAK TO THEM?
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
VAGUE.
r 25
26
Q. DID A DETECTIVE TELL YOU NOT TO SPEAK TO
r 27 SOMEBODY ABOUT THIS CASE IF THEY CAME TO SPEAK WITH YOU?
r 28 A. THEY TOLD ME -- SINCE AT THAT TIME I WAS
r
679
l
l
1 UNDERAGE, THEY TOLD ME I DIDN'T HAVE TO SPEAK IF I
2 DIDN'T WANT TO. l
3 Q. DID THEY SPECIFICALLY SAY, "DON'T SPEAK TO
4 SOMEBODY"? l
5 A. NO.
6 Q. MS. BERUMEN, DID YOU GET A VISIT FROM AN
l
7
8
INVESTIGATOR AT ALL OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS?
A. YES.
l
9 Q. AN INVESTIGATOR WHO WAS WORKING WITH ME? l
10 A. I KNOW HE'S A DEFENDER FOR HIM.
11 Q. WAS HIS NAME JOE MALDONADO? l
12 A. I DON'T KNOW HIS NAME. I WAS DOWN IN MEXICO.
13 Q. DID HE LEAVE A BUSINESS CARD FOR YOU? l
14
15
A.
Q.
HE LEFT TWO.
AND HIS PHONE NUMBER WAS ON IT?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. AND HE, ON THE BUSINESS CARD, IDENTIFIED
18 HIMSELF AS AN INVESTIGATOR WORKING FOR THE DEFENSE, l
19 RIGHT?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. YOU NEVER CONTACTED HIM, RIGHT?
22 A. NO, I NEVER DID.
l
23
24
Q. FINALLY, MS. BERUMEN, WE WENT THROUGH IT
BRIEFLY, BUT I WANT TO GET INTO IT IN A LITTLE MORE
l
25 DETAIL RIGHT NOW, THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT l
26 IN THIS CASE.
27 ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, YOU WERE MOISES'S l
28 GIRLFRIEND, CORRECT?
l
l
r 680
r 1 A. CORRECT.
r 2 Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN DATING AT THAT POINT?
A YEAR.
r
3
4 Q. OKAY. AND SO YOU CARED FOR HIM.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN, UNFORTUNATELY, HE WAS KILLED IN THE
r 7
8
PARK AND HE PASSED AWAY, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. AND YOU WERE UPSET ABOUT THAT.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
AND AT SOME POINT IN TIME, YOU CONTACTED
r 12
13
DETECTIVE JOE HOWIE WITH INFORMATION, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. YOU CONTACTED HIM BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAD
INFORMATION ON THE CASE, RIGHT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
AT THAT POINT IN TIME, MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD
r 18 ALREADY BEEN ARRESTED, RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD ALREADY BEEN ARRESTED FOR
r 21
22
QUITE SOMETIME BEFORE YOU CALLED DETECTIVE HOWIE, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 23
24 YOU?
Q. AND YOU WERE KEEPING UP WITH THE CASE, WEREN'T
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
YOU WERE TALKING TO MOISES'S PARENTS.
YES.
r 28 Q. FRIENDS.
r
681
1
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND YOU HAD HEARD THAT THE POLICE WERE ACCUSING l
3 MR. DOMINGUEZ OF KILLING MOISES LOPEZ, RIGHT?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. AND SO IT WAS WHEN YOU HAD ALREADY HEARD THAT
6 THAT YOU DECIDED TO CALL JOE HOWIE, CORRECT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
IT WAS WHEN YOU ALREADY HAD KNOWN THAT THE
l
9 POLICE WERE ACCUSING MR. DOMINGUEZ OF KILLING MOISES l
10 LOPEZ -- THAT'S WHEN YOU DECIDED TO CALL JOE HOWIE.
11 A. THAT'S NOT THE ONLY THING THEY HAD ACCUSED. l
12 Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU KNEW THAT ONLY
13 MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD BEEN ARRESTED FOR THIS, RIGHT? l
14
15
A. I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS ARRESTED.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, BRIEF SIDEBAR?
l
16 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SIDEBAR RULE IS IN
l
17 EFFECT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD.
18 (SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.) l
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU, FOLKS. BACK ON THE
20 RECORD. l
22 Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU TESTIFIED AT A HEARING TODAY
l
23
24
EARLIER, OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY, RIGHT?
A. WHAT WAS THAT?
l
25 Q. YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER TODAY OUTSIDE OF THE l
26 PRESENCE OF THE JURY, CORRECT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. AND AT THAT POINT YOU HAD STATED DURING THAT
l
1
r 682
r 1 QUESTIONING THAT YOU HAD HEARD MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD BEEN
r 2 ARRESTED AT THE TIME YOU CALLED JOE HOWIE, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
SO YOU HAD HEARD.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. AND THEN DURING YOUR INTERVIEW ON
r 7
8
SEPTEMBER 8, 2010, YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT YOU KNEW
THAT THEY KNEW THAT SPEEDY WAS THE GUY WHO SHOT MOISES,
r 9 RIGHT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU BELIEVE THE POLICE WHEN THEY SAY
r 12
13
DOMINGUEZ IS THE PERSON WHO SHOT MOISES, DON'T YOU?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND SO YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE HE GETS PUNISHED
FOR THAT, DON'T YOU?
r 16
17
A. YES.
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
r 18 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
r 19
20
Q. AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE TESTIFYING TODAY, TO MAKE
r 21
22
SURE THAT HE GETS PUNISHED, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
THE ANSWER IS?
CORRECT.
r 28 Q. IT'S YES?
r
683
1
l
1 A. YES.
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR. l
3 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. REDIRECT.
4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION l
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. YOU BELIEVE THE POLICE ARRESTED THE RIGHT
l
7
8
PERSON, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
9 Q. DID YOU BELIEVE JOSUE WHEN HE WAS TELLING YOU l
10 THIS SAME PERSON WAS THE ONE THAT KILLED YOUR BOYFRIEND?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. ANY REASON TO DOUBT WHAT JOSUE WAS TELLING YOU?
13 A. NO. l
14
15
Q.
A.
HE WAS A FRIEND OF YOURS, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
l
16 Q. IT WASN'T UNTIL LATER THAT THIS FRIENDSHIP
l
17 DISSOLVED, CORRECT?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 Q. AT THE TIME HE WAS TELLING YOU THESE THINGS,
20 DID YOU EVER THINK YOU WOULD BE TESTIFYING IN COURT? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. WHY NOT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
AT THE TIME HE'S TELLING YOU THIS, IS THIS
l
25 STILL AROUND THE TIME YOU WERE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. SO AT THE TIME, JOSUE WAS ALSO A MEMBER OF l
28 SHELLTOWN.
l
1
r 684
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. YOUR BOYFRIEND WAS, NOW MURDERED -- WAS A
r
3 MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN.
4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q. AND THE PERSON JOSUE IS TELLING YOU DID IT IS
ALSO A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
IS THERE ANY SORT OF RULES, FORMALLY OR
r 9
10
INFORMALLY, AGAINST GOING TO THE POLICE WITH INFORMATION
ABOUT FELLOW GANG MEMBERS?

r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT IS THAT?
YOU GET BEAT UP.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY?
FOR SNITCHING.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH SNITCHING?
IT'S NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
r 18 Q. FOR GANG MEMBERS, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
IN FACT, YOU'VE BEEN THREATENED BECAUSE YOU'RE
r 21
22
SNITCHING NOW, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
BY MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
CORRECT.
r 25 Q. DID THAT COME AS A SURPRISE TO YOU?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY NOT?
r 28 A. BECAUSE SOONER OR LATER, THEY WERE GOING TO DO
r
685
l
l
1 IT.
2 Q. SO KNOWING YOU WOULD RECEIVE THREATS FROM GANG l
3 MEMBERS, YOU CALLED DETECTIVE HOWIE.
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. WHY?
6 A. BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO?
TELL THE TRUTH.
l
9 Q. AFTER THE DETECTIVES CAME AND TALKED TO YOU, l
10 THE PORTIONS OF THE INTERVIEW THAT WE HEARD, DID YOU
11 STILL KNOW OR HAVE A FEELING YOU WOULD BE THREATENED FOR l
12 TALKING TO THE POLICE ON TAPE?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q. DID YOU EVER THINK ANY OF THOSE STATEMENTS
WOULD GET BACK TO MEMBERS OF THE GANG?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. WERE YOU TOLD IN THIS CASE THAT THOSE
18 STATEMENTS DID GET BACK TO MEMBERS OF THE GANG BY YOUR l
19 BROTHER?
20 A. WHAT WAS THAT? l
21 Q. DID YOUR BROTHER TELL YOU THAT THESE STATEMENTS
22 DID, IN FACT, GET BACK TO MEMBERS OF THE GANG?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU TALKED WITH DETECTIVE NAVA AND MYSELF,
l
25 THIS IS FAR PAST YOUR BEING IN A GANG, CORRECT? l
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. YOU SAID THAT YOU STOPPED BEING OR RUNNING l
28 AROUND WITH SHELLTOWN 38TH AFTER YOUR BOYFRIEND WAS
l
1
r 686
r 1 MURDERED.
r 2 A. YES.
r
3 Q. WHERE WERE YOU LIVING AT THE TIME OF THAT
4 MURDER?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
SHELLTOWN.
WHAT STREET?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
ON 35TH STREET.
DID YOU EVER MOVE AWAY FROM THAT ADDRESS?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
WHEN DID YOU MOVE?
r 11 A. AFTER THAT HAPPENED.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU NO LONGER LIVE IN SHELLTOWN?
NO.
r 14
15
Q. IS THAT ALSO A FACT OF WHY YOU'RE NO LONGER A
MEMBER OF THAT GANG?
r 16 A.
Q.
WHAT WAS THAT?
IS THAT ALSO WHY YOU'RE NO LONGER A MEMBER OF
r
17
18 THE GANG?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY AREN'T YOU A MEMBER OF THAT GANG?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DECIDED NOT TO BE.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR LIFE INSTEAD OF
r 23
24
HANGING OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 25 Q. ARE YOU GOING TO SCHOOL?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
NO.
WERE YOU GOING TO SCHOOL AFTER YOU DROPPED OUT
r 28 OF THE GANG?
r
687
,
l
1 A. THE LAST SCHOOL I WENT TO WAS LINCOLN HIGH
2 SCHOOL. l
3 Q. YOU LIVE WITH YOUR PARENTS?
4 A. YES, I DO. l
5 Q. YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE ANY CHILDREN?
NO.
l
9 Q. DO YOU ASSIST RAISING YOUR YOUNGER CHILDREN? l
10 A. WHAT WAS THAT?
11 Q. DO YOU HELP OUT YOUR PARENTS IN RAISING THE l
12 YOUNGER CHILDREN?
l
13
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
RELEVANCE.
,
16 Q. DO YOU EVER -- ASIDE FROM ISMAEL ACEVES, DO YOU
l
17 HANG OUT WITH MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. AND YOU SAID EARLIER ISMAEL IS NOT A MEMBER OF
20 SHELLTOWN, CORRECT? l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. JOSUE, THE PERSON WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, DID
l
23
24
YOU KNOW IF HE WENT OUT OF TOWN AT SOME POINT?
A. YES, I DO.
l
25 Q. WHEN DID HE GO OUT OF TOWN? l
26 A. WHEN THEY WERE DOING THE TRIAL.
27 Q. WHEN WE WERE DOING STUFF WITH THIS CASE? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 688
r 1 Q. WHERE DID HE GO?
r 2 A. HE WENT TO TEXAS.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
THIS WAS SOMETIME LAST YEAR?
YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AT OTHER HEARINGS DURING THIS CASE?
WHAT WAS THAT?
r 7
8
Q.
A.
AT TIMES OF HEARINGS IN THIS CASE?
YES.
r 9 Q. SO IF HE'S IN TEXAS -- OR AT THE TIME YOU
r 10
11
COULDN'T TALK TO HIM WHEN HE WAS OUT OF STATE, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. IN TERMS OF THE DATES THAT THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY
WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT, WE HEARD DATES OF WHEN ANGELINA
r 14
15
HAS THREATENED YOU BEFORE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q. IS THIS ALSO AT TIMES WHEN YOU'VE CALLED THE
r
POLICE TO COMPLAIN?
18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. WAS THERE ANYTHING ELSE GOING ON THAT YOU WOULD
REMEMBER THE SPECIFIC DATES IN TERMS OF WHEN YOU RAN
r 21
22
INTO JOSUE?
A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
IS THIS THE ONLY TIME YOU RAN INTO JOSUE?
NO.
r 25 Q. DID YOU SEE JOSUE BEFORE HE TALKED TO YOU IN
THE PARK AFTER THE MURDER?

r
26
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. DID YOU SEE JOSUE AFTER HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT
r
689
l
l
1 THE MURDER IN THE PARK?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU THINK? r;;!i!!
4 A. MORE THAN FIVE. J

5 Q. FREQUENTLY?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
UP UNTIL YOU GUYS HAD A FALLING OUT?
YES.
l
9 Q. WHO IS MENACE? l
10 A. THAT IS ANGELINA'S BOYFRIEND.
11 Q. SO THAT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT HIS REAL NAME, CORRECT? l
13 Q. NO ONE WOULD NAME THEIR KID MENACE, RIGHT?
l
14
15
THAT WOULD BE HIS NICKNAME.
A. YES.
l
16 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL NAME?
l
17 A. NO, I DON'T.
18 Q. IS MENACE A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET, TO YOUR l
19 KNOWLEDGE?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. IN TERMS OF WHEN YOU TALKED TO JOSUE ABOUT THE
22 MURDER IN THE PARK, DID HE GO OUT OF STATE BEFORE OR
l
23
24
AFTER YOU GUYS HAD THAT TALK?
A. THAT WAS AFTER.
l
25 Q. WHEN YOU ARE ASKED THINGS SUCH AS RELATED TO l
26 THIS CASE AND UNRELATED TO THIS CASE IN TERMS OF THE
27 THREATS -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT? l
28 A. LIKE?
l
1
r 690
r 1 Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION?
r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q. ANGELINA, WE HEARD, HAS THREATENED YOU BECAUSE
OF YOU TESTIFYING OR GOING TO THE POLICE, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
HAS SHE THREATENED YOU ABOUT OTHER THINGS TOO?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
IS IT JUST ABOUT BEING THREATENED IN THIS
r 9
10
CASE -- EXCUSE ME -- JUST ABOUT COMING FORWARD IN THIS
CASE?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. SHE HASN'T THREATENED YOU BECAUSE YOU LIKED A
BOY SHE LIKED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
OR ABOUT YOUR BROTHER'S ACTIONS AT SCHOOL OR
r 16
17
SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
A. NO.
r 18 Q. SO THE THREATS HAVE ONLY BEEN BECAUSE OF YOU
r 19
20
BEING IN COURT TODAY?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT MOISES LOPEZ WAS
PROBABLY THE CLOSEST TO YOU, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHO WAS CLOSER TO YOU, JOSUE OR SPEEDY?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
JOSUE.
HOW WOULD YOU HAVE DESCRIBED YOUR FRIENDSHIP
r 27 WITH JOSUE BEFORE THIS INCIDENT -- BEFORE THIS FALLING
r 28 OUT? WERE YOU GUYS JUST GOOD FRIENDS? BEST FRIENDS?
r
691
1
1 OKAY FRIENDS?
l
2 A. BEST FRIENDS. l
3 Q. WOULD YOU HAVE CONSIDERED YOURSELF IN THIS
4 GROUP OF FOUR GUYS ALONG WITH MOISES? l
5 A. I DIDN'T GET THAT.
6 Q. SURE. YOU SAID EARLIER MOISES HAD THESE THREE
l
7
8
FRIENDS:
FRIENDS.
RAUL, ISMAEL, AND JOSUE. THEY WERE HIS BEST
1
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. WERE YOU BEST FRIENDS ON THAT SAME LEVEL?
11 THE COURT: DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
12 THE WITNESS: NO.
13 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
14
15
Q.
FRIEND.
WOULD YOU HAVE CONSIDERED JOSUE TO BE YOUR BEST
WOULD YOU HAVE CONSIDERED HIM ALSO TO BE
1
16 MOISES'S BEST FRIEND?
l
17 A. YES.
18 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER. l
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU. CROSS.
20 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 1
22 Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE
l
23
24
JUMPED IN BY LIL SPANKY.
A. YES.
l
25 Q. YOU WERE JUMPED IN WHEN YOU WERE 12? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND LIL SPANKY, HE'S 16, YOU SAID? l
28 A. YES. ~
1
r 692
r 1 Q. SO HE WOULD HAVE BEEN NINE YEARS OLD WHEN HE
r 2 JUMPED YOU IN?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I THINK SO.
SO YOU GOT BEAT UP -- WHAT IS A JUMP-IN?

5 A. WHAT'S A JUMP-IN? YOU GET BEAT UP.
r 6 Q. IN ORDER TO BE INITIATED INTO THE GANG?
~ 7 A. YES.
L
8 Q. SO A NINE-YEAR-OLD BEAT YOU UP?
r 9 A. I DON'T REMEMBER HIS REAL AGE.

10
r
Q. OKAY. MS. BERUMEN, WHEN YOU WENT AND GAVE AN
11 INTERVIEW TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE DISTRICT
12 ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR, ON THAT DAY YOUR STORY CHANGED
r 13 QUITE A BIT, DIDN'T IT?
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
VAGUE.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
SUSTAINED.
r 16
17
Q. FOR EXAMPLE, ON THAT DAY YOU SAID THAT
r 18 MR. GUTIERREZ MADE THE STATEMENTS TO YOU THE DAY AFTER
r 19
20
THE MURDER, CORRECT?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

r 21
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER, THEN.
r 23
24 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: JUST ONE QUESTION, IF I MAY, YOUR
r 26
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. THE PEOPLE THAT JUMPED YOU IN, WERE THEY
r
693
1
1 OLDER THAN YOU AT THE TIME?
1
2 A. YES, THEY WERE. l
3 Q. WAS LIL SPANKY 16 AT THE TIME HE JUMPED YOU IN?
4 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK, YES, HE WAS. 1
5 Q. YOU WEREN'T BEAT UP BY A THIRD GRADER, WERE
6 YOU?
l
7 A. HUH?
l _J
8 Q. A THIRD GRADER DIDN'T COME AND BEAT YOU UP, DID

9 THEY? l
10 A. NO.
11 Q. AND THE OTHER PERSON, SPANKY, WAS HE OLDER THAN l
12 LIL SPANKY?
13 A. YES, HE WAS. l
14
15
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
l
16
17
Q. MS. BERUMEN, YOUR TESTIMONY IS THAT LIL
l
18 SPANKY IS OLDER THAN YOU? l
19 A. YES, HE IS.
20 Q. YOU SAID HE WAS 16 EARLIER. l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. BUT NOW YOU'RE SAYING HE'S OLDER THAN YOU?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
HE'S OLDER THAN ME.
WHAT? 20?
l
25 A. I DON'T KNOW HIS AGE. l
28 THE COURT: MS. BERUMEN, THANK YOU FOR COMING
l
l
r 694
r 1 TO COURT. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT
r 2 THE QUESTIONS YOU WERE ASKED HERE IN COURT OR ANYTHING
r
3 THAT WAS SAID HERE IN COURT WITH ANYBODY EXCEPT THE
4 INVESTIGATORS. OKAY?
r 5
6
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
OKAY.
AND IF WE NEED YOU BACK, THE
r 7
8
INVESTIGATORS WILL LET YOU KNOW AND WE'LL HAVE YOU COME
BACK. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

10 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GOOD
r 11 DAY TO YOU.
r 12
13 CRENSHAW.
MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, THE PEOPLE CALL CHAD
r 14
15
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
YOU MAY.
r 16
17
r 18 HELP YOU GOD?
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
I DO.
r 21
22
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 25
26
THE WITNESS: CHAD CRENSHAW, C-R-E-N-S-H-A-W.
r 27 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY
r 28 EXAMINE.
r
695
,,
1
1 CHAD CRENSHAW,
2 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, l
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION l
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER.
l
7
8
A.
Q.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
l
9 DEPARTMENT? l
10 A. YES, I AM.
11 Q. WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT? l
12 A. CURRENT ASSIGNMENT, I AM WORKING SOUTHEASTERN
13 DIVISION OF JUVENILE SERVICES TEAM. l
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH THAT ASSIGNMENT?
APPROXIMATELY TWO YEARS.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A POLICE OFFICER?
COMING UP ON SEVEN YEARS.
l
18 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT PRIOR TO YOUR CURRENT l
19 ASSIGNMENT?
20 A. I WAS PATROL IN THE SOUTHEASTERN DIVISION. l
21 Q. AND HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THAT ASSIGNMENT?
22 A. JUST ABOUT FIVE YEARS.
l
23
24
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A PART OF SOUTHEAST
SAN DIEGO KNOWN AS SHELLTOWN?
l
25 A. I AM. l
26 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A PARK IN SHELLTOWN KNOWN
27 AS OCEAN VIEW PARK? l
28 A. I AM.
l
,
r 696
r 1 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S
r 2 EXHIBIT 2, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PARK IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I DO. I'VE DRIVEN BY IT THOUSANDS OF TIMES.
GOING BACK TO SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, WERE YOU ON
r 5
6
DUTY?
A. YES, I WAS.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DID YOU RESPOND TO A CALL AT OCEAN VIEW PARK?
I DID.
r 9 Q. WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THE CALL?

10 A. GUNSHOTS HEARD IN THE AREA.
r 11 Q. WERE YOU IN A PATROL CAR?
r' 12 A. I WAS.
[
13 Q. WERE YOU ALONE OR WITH A PARTNER?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
WITH MY PARTNER, JOHN THOMPSON.
WAS HE IN THE CAR WITH YOU OR DID HE HAVE HIS
r 16
17
OWN CAR?
A. HE WAS IN THE CAR WITH ME. WE WERE PAIRED UP
r 18 THAT NIGHT.
r 19
20
Q.
CALL?
WHERE WERE YOU COMING FROM WHEN YOU HEARD THE
r 21
22
A.
BOULEVARD.
WE WERE COMING WESTBOUND ON OCEAN VIEW
r 23
24
Q.
HALF?
SO THAT STREET UP ON TOP THAT CUTS THE PARK IN
r 25 A. CORRECT.
r
27 A. WE PULLED INTO THE ALLEY. TO THE LEFT THERE
r 28 YOU CAN SEE CUYAMACA STREET, THE 400 BLOCK. TO THE WEST
r
~
J
697
l
1 OF THAT IS A DIRT ALLEY WHICH RUNS TO THE EAST OF THE
2
4
PARK.
ALLEY.
Q.
WE DROVE IN OFF OF OCEAN VIEW AND DOWN THAT DIRT
NOW, LET'S JUMP TO PEOPLE'S 1 FOR JUST A MOMENT

, J
TO KIND OF HELP YOU OUT, OFFICER.

5
6 PEOPLE'S 1, WE HAVE TWO PHOTOGRAPHS, THE TOP

l
7 BEING A LARGER PHOTOGRAPH OF THE ENTIRE PARK; WOULD YOU
8 AGREE?
~
9 A. YES. J
10 Q. WE CAN SEE OCEAN VIEW WIND IN THE MIDDLE OF

11 THAT "S" KIND OF PATTERN, CORRECT? l
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. CAN WE SEE WHERE THE DIRT ALLEY INTERSECTS
l
14
15
OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD?
A. YES, WE CAN.
l
16 Q. IS IT THIS AREA RIGHT HERE ALMOST IN AN l
17 INTERSECTION WITH THE SOUTH BOUNDARY?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 Q. THIS ALLEY, DOES IT RUN THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF
20 THE PARK? l
A. IT DOES.
21
22 Q. AT THE TIME OF THIS INCIDENT, WERE THERE ANY

l
23
24
BARRIERS OR OTHER OBSTRUCTIONS THAT WOULD PREVENT
SOMEBODY FROM DRIVING THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE ALLEY?
l
25 A. YES. WE LOCATED A GREEN MAXIMA IN THE ALLEY l
26 FACING NORTHBOUND.
27 Q. IS THERE A LANDMARK WE CAN SEE ON PEOPLE'S 1 l
28 THAT WOULD SHOW US THE AREA THIS MAXIMA WAS IN?
l
l
r 698
r 1 A. APPROXIMATELY WHERE THE HUGE CLUMP OF TREES

r 2 THERE IS TO YOUR LEFT.
3 Q. NOW, IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1 WE SEE TWO LARGE
r 4 COLUMNS OF TREES, ONE TO THE RIGHT AND TO THE LEFT.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
TO THE LEFT.
THIS ONE RIGHT HERE THAT I'M INDICATING?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES. LOOKS LIKE THE GIANT CATERPILLAR THERE.
BY THE TWO PICNIC TABLES?
r 9 A. YES.
10 Q. WERE THE CAR'S LIGHTS ON?
r 11 A. CORRECT. THE LIGHTS WERE ON AND THE TWO REAR
r 12
13
DOORS WERE WIDE OPEN.
Q. WAS THERE ANYBODY IN OR AROUND THE CAR?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO, NO ONE WAS AROUND THE CAR.
WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
r 16
17
A. I WALKED INTO THE PARK. OFFICER EULER AND I
LOCATED A GUNSHOT VICTIM LAYING IN THE PARK.
r 18 Q. WERE YOU THE FIRST OFFICERS ON THE SCENE OR
r 19
20
WERE THERE OTHER OFFICERS ALREADY THERE?
A. NUMEROUS OFFICERS SHOWED UP AROUND THE SAME
r 21
22
TIME.
Q. WHEN YOU CONTACTED THE PERSON IN THE PARK, WERE
r 23
24
YOU WITH OTHER OFFICERS AS WELL?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER, OTHER THAN OFFICER EULER, WHO
r 26
27
ELSE WAS WITH YOU?
A. NO, NOT AT THAT MOMENT. I KNOW THAT THE WHOLE
DIVISION EVENTUALLY SHOWED UP THERE.
r 28
r
699
1
l
1 Q. LET'S MOVE BACK TO PEOPLE'S 2.
l
2
3
4
MAXIMA?
A.
THE PATROL CAR, DID YOU PARK IT BEHIND THE
I DID.
, !
5 Q. IN ORDER TO GET INTO THE PARK, IS THERE A FENCE

6 YOU HAD TO GO OVER OR THROUGH?
l
7
8
A. YES. THERE'S MAYBE A HIP-HIGH FENCE THAT
SEPARATES THE ALLEY FROM THE PARK.
l
9 Q. FROM THE AREA YOU WERE IN THE PARK, COULD YOU l
10 SEE ANYBODY IN THE PARK?
11 A. NO, NOT THAT I RECALL. l
12 Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST BECOME AWARE THAT THERE WAS
13 SOMEBODY LYING DOWN IN THE GRASS? l
14
15
A. I DON'T RECALL SPECIFICALLY. I KNOW I MADE MY
WAY TO THE PARK, SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE OTHER
l
16 OFFICERS SAID, "HEY, WE LOCATED A VICTIM IN THE PARK."
l
17 Q. WHEN YOU CAME UPON THE VICTIM, HOW DID HE
""1
18
19
20
APPEAR?
A. HE WAS LAYING THERE. WHEN OFFICER EULER WAS
TALKING TO HIM AND -- NUMEROUS GUNSHOTS. MEDICS SHOWED
, l
21 UP SHORTLY AFTER AND STARTED CUTTING HIS CLOTHES OFF. 'i

J
22 WE COULD SEE THE NUMEROUS HOLES IN HIM.
23
24
Q.
A.
SO YOU DID SEE HIS INJURIES?
I DID.
l
25 Q. BEFORE AND AFTER HIS CLOTHES WERE REMOVED? l
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. DID YOU EVER SAY ANYTHING TO THE VICTIM? l
28 A. I DID NOT.
l
1
I 700
I
1 Q. LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, CAN YOU POINT TO
r 2 ANY LANDMARKS ON THE EXHIBIT THAT WOULD SHOW US WHERE

3 THE VICTIM WAS?
r 4 A. WHERE YOU HAVE A LITTLE RED CIRCLE THERE.
r 5
6
Q. THANK YOU.
CONTACTING THE VICTIM?
WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER KIND OF
r 7
8
A. I WENT BACK TO MY PATROL CAR TO START WITNESS
CHECKS AND LOCATED SOME OTHER EVIDENCE THERE IN THE
r 9 ALLEY.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHAT EVIDENCE DID YOU LOCATE?
AROUND THE POLICE -- NOT MY POLICE CAR
r 12
13
AROUND THE GREEN MAXIMA WERE NUMEROUS BUDWEISER BEER
CANS. AND THEN JUST OVER THE FENCE IN THE PARK WAS A
r 14
15
12-PACK OF BEER BOTTLES WITH ONE BOTTLE HALF DRANK AND
SITTING ON TOP.
r 16
17
Q. DID YOU JUST TAKE A MENTAL NOTE OF THESE ITEMS
AND WRITE THEM INTO A REPORT?
r 18 A. I WROTE THEM IN A REPORT.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEIZE THESE ITEMS?
I DID NOT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DID YOU TOUCH THESE ITEMS?
I DID NOT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DID YOU TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THESE ITEMS?
I PERSONALLY DID NOT.
r 25 Q. I DO HAVE SOME PHOTOGRAPHS FOR YOU HERE TODAY,
r
26 OFFICER. WE'LL GO THROUGH THEM. WHAT I'LL BE DOING IS
27 I'LL BE SHOWING THEM TO YOU PHYSICALLY, AND BEHIND YOU
28 ON THE TV SCREEN WE'LL SHOW THE JURY THEM AS WELL.
r
r
l
701
, J
1 FIRST I'M GOING TO START OFF ON PEOPLE'S
1
2
3
EXHIBITS 21 AND 22. IF YOU COULD LOOK AT THOSE TO
YOURSELF AND GET ACQUAINTED WITH THEM. ,
4
5
6
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, WE'VE HAD, I BELIEVE,
21 IDENTIFIED FOR THE RECORD.
22 IDENTIFIED FOR THE RECORD.
I DON'T BELIEVE WE'VE HAD , J
7
8 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
I WILL BE GETTING TO IT, YOUR
l
9 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. 1 ~
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. WE'LL START WITH PEOPLE'S 21. l
12 CAN WE SEE THE BUDWEISER BOX THAT YOU DESCRIBED
13 IN THE PARK? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES, WE CAN, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE TREE THERE.
IT'S THE RED OBJECT, APPARENTLY.
l
16 A. CORRECT.
l
17 Q. CAN WE SEE THE MAXIMA YOU WERE REFERRING TO AS
18 WELL? l
19 A. YES, WE CAN, RIGHT BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND
20 TREE, STARTING FROM THE LEFT. l
21 Q. THAT WOULD BE TO THE -- JUST THE ONLY VEHICLE
22 IN THE SCENE?
l
23
24
A. CORRECT.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 22, PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING
l
25 TOWARD BUDWEISER BOX, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 22. THIS IS A l
28 PHOTOGRAPH FROM THE ALLEY LOOKING TOWARDS THE PARK AT
l
l
r
i
702
r
l
1 THE BUDWEISER BOX?
r
l
2 A. YES, IT IS.
3 Q. IS THIS THE VANTAGE POINT YOU COULD SEE WHERE
r
I
l 4 YOU GOT OUT OF YOUR CAR OR IN THAT AREA?
r
!
5 A. YES, IT IS.
6 Q. OFFICER, I'M GOING TO BACK UP A LITTLE BIT NOW.
~ 7 WE'RE GOING TO START WITH PEOPLE'S 17, 18, 19, AND 20.
I
8 IF YOU COULD LOOK AT THOSE TO YOURSELF FIRST.
r 9 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 17, PHOTOGRAPH OF THE

10 MAXIMA LOOKING SOUTHBOUND, WAS MARKED FOR
r 11 IDENTIFICATION.)
r 12
13
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. STARTING WITH PEOPLE'S 17, THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH
r 14
15
OF THE MAXIMA LOOKING SOUTHBOUND ON THE ALLEY, SO WE'RE
LOOKING AT THE FRONT OF THE CAR.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, CAN WE SEE ANY INDICATION
r 18
19
OF WHERE YOUR PATROL CAR IS PARKED?
A. IT WAS APPROXIMATELY WHERE THOSE -- YOU CAN SEE
r 20 THE HEADLIGHTS AND THE LICENSE PLATE GLOWING IN THE
r 21
22
DISTANCE BACK THERE.
Q. SO THE THREE LIGHTS OR WHITE DOTS?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THAT WOULD REPRESENT APPROXIMATELY WHERE YOUR
r 25
26
PATROL CAR WAS AT?
A. CORRECT.
r 27 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 18, PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE VIEW
28 OF MAXIMA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r
r
703
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
~I
2 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 18, THIS IS A SIDE VIEW
3 OF THAT SAME MAXIMA IN THE DIRT ALLEY, LOOKING AT THE
4 DRIVER'S SIDE, AGREED?
5 A. CORRECT. ~
j
6 Q. WE SEE TWO YELLOW PLACARDS, NO. 11 AND NO. 12.
7 DO YOU SEE THOSE? l !
8 A. I DO.
9 Q. DID YOU PUT THOSE THERE?
10 A. I DID NOT.
11 Q. DID YOU FIND ITEMS THOSE PLACARDS WOULD l
12 CORRESPOND TO?
13 A. I DID. THEY WERE EMPTY BUDWEISER BEER CANS. l
14
15
Q. AND WAS THIS THE LOCATION YOU SAW THESE TWO
BEER CANS DURING YOUR TIME IN THE PARK?
l
16 A. YES. I NEVER TOUCHED THE ITEMS AT ALL.
l
17 {PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 19, PHOTOGRAPH OF MAXIMA
18 FROM THE REAR OF THE ALLEY, WAS MARKED FOR l
19 IDENTIFICATION.)
20 BY MR. TROCHA: l
21 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 19, THIS WOULD BE ANOTHER
22 VIEW OF THE MAXIMA FROM THE REAR OF THE ALLEY, LOOKING
l
23
24
AT THE REAR OF THE VEHICLE AS WELL AS THE DRIVER'S SIDE,
AGREED?
l
25 A. I AGREE. l
26 Q. DID YOU FIND ANY ITEMS IN THIS AREA OF THE
27 MAXIMA OR DID YOU LOOK? l J
28 A. A BEER CAN TO THE EAST OF THE MAXIMA, THAT

l
1
r 704
r 1 WOULD BE PLACARD 13. AND PLACARD 14, I DON'T SEE THE
r 2 BEER CAN, BUT I REMEMBER THERE WAS ONE BEHIND THE CAR.
r 3
4
Q.
COLLECT
THE ONE FOR 13, HOW MANY BEER CANS DID YOU
OR NOT COLLECT -- OBSERVE IN RELATION TO THIS
r 5
6
VEHICLE?
A. FOUR.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
RIGHT NOW WE'VE SEEN THREE, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
r 9 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 20, PHOTOGRAPH OF REAR VIEW
r 10
11
OF MAXIMA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q. PEOPLE'S 20, WOULD THIS BE A VIEW FROM WHERE
YOUR PATROL CAR WAS PARKED, LOOKING AT THE REAR OF THE
r 14
15
MAXIMA?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q. YOU SEE ANOTHER YELLOW PLACARD IN THE
FOREGROUND, DO YOU NOT?
r 18 A. YEP. THERE'S A FOURTH BEER CAN, PLACARD 15.
r 19
20
Q. AT THE TIME, YOU DIDN'T PUT THE PLACARDS DOWN
TO INDICATE ANYTHING?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DID NOT.
SO SOME OF THE PLACARDS WERE PUT THERE BY OTHER
r 23
24
PEOPLE INDICATING BEER CANS OR OTHER OBJECTS?
A. CORRECT.
r 25 Q. LET'S GET TO PEOPLE'S 23, OFFICER. I'LL TRADE
r
26 YOU ONE LAST TIME. GET ACQUAINTED WITH THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
27 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 23, PHOTOGRAPH OF A CASE OF
r 28 BUDWEISER, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r
705
,
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 23 APPEARS TO BE A PHOTOGRAPH OF A 1J
3 CASE OF BUDWEISER WITH A BUDWEISER BEER ON TOP OF IT AND

4 PLACARD NO. 8 NEXT TO IT, AGREED?
1 J
5 A. AGREED. ..,
J
6 Q. IS THIS A CLOSE-UP OF THE BUDWEISER BOX WE WERE
7
8
TALKING ABOUT EARLIER?
A. YES, IT IS.
l
9 Q. IS THIS HOW IT APPEARED TO YOU, OTHER THAN THE l
10 NO. 8 AND THE RULER AND ORANGE ITEM ON THE BOTTOM, WHEN
11 YOU LOOKED AT IT ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DID YOU MAKE ANY VISUAL OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE
l
14
15
BEER BOTTLE ITSELF?
A. I REMEMBER IT WAS -- LOOKED COLD JUST BECAUSE
l
16 OF CONDENSATION OR THE DRIPS ON THE BOTTLE.
l
17 Q. THE SWEATING ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BOTTLE?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 Q. COULD YOU SEE IF THERE WAS ANY BEER STILL
20 INSIDE THE BOTTLE? l
21 A. YEAH. IT WAS HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY,
22 WHICHEVER WAY YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT.
1
23
24
Q.
A.
IF YOU'RE AN OPTIMIST OR NOT?
TRUE.
l
25 Q. AND, AGAIN, YOU DIDN'T TOUCH THIS ITEM IN ANY l
26 OTHER WAY?
27 A. I DID NOT. l
28 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, OFFICER.
l
1
r 706
r
r 1
3
THE COURT: THANK YOU. CROSS.

r 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 5
6
Q. OFFICER, YOU SAID THERE WAS A GREEN MAXIMA
r 7
8
PARKED IN THE ALLEY, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT, FACING NORTHBOUND.
r 9
10
Q. AND ON PROSECUTION 2, FACING NORTHBOUND WOULD
BE FACING THE BOTTOM OF THE EXHIBIT, CORRECT?

r 11 A. CORRECT, FACING TOWARDS THE BOTTOM.
r 12
13
Q. AND THE MAXIMA WAS BEHIND THE CLUMP OF TREES
THAT ARE JUST TO THE LEFT OF THE TWO PICNIC BENCHES,
r 14
15
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 16 Q. AND IT WAS IN THE DIRT ALLEY?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
OKAY.
REGISTERED TO?
THE WHOLE ALLEY IS DIRT.
AND DID YOU ASCERTAIN WHO THE MAXIMA WAS
19
r 20 A. IF I DID, I DON'T RECALL.
r 21
22 WAS
Q. OKAY. AND THEN YOU SAID THAT THE CASE OF BEER
IT WOULD BE ON PROSECUTION'S 2 -- UNDERNEATH THAT
r 23
24
CLUMP OF TREES, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE.
r 25 Q. THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE BEING THE GRASS
r 26
27
PART, NOT THE DIRT?
A. CORRECT.
r 28 Q. AND THERE'S ONE BEER ON TOP OF IT?
r
707
,
l
1
2
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND IT WAS HALF FULL?
, l
3 A. OR EMPTY, WHICHEVER WAY.
4 Q. AND HOW CLOSE WAS IT TO THE MAXIMA? l

5
6
A. JUST GUESSTIMATING, I'D SAY FROM THE DIRT ALLEY
WHERE THE MAXIMA WAS TO OVER THE FENCE, MAYBE 15 FEET.

l
~
7 Q. SO CLOSE PROXIMITY?
J
8 A. YEAH, CLOSE.
l
9
10
11
Q.
A.
Q.
AND DID YOU TOUCH THE BEER?
I DID NOT.
SO YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS HOT OR COLD?
, j
12 A. I DID NOT. I DON'T.
13 Q. WAS IT WARM OUT THAT NIGHT?

l
14
15
A. SEPTEMBER, I WOULD GUESS, BUT I CAN'T RECALL
WHAT THE TEMPERATURE WAS.

l
l
16
17
18
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
NOTHING FURTHER.
REDIRECT?
JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS.

, l
20 BY MR. TROCHA: l
21
22
Q. OFFICER, I FORGOT TO ASK YOU, WHEN YOU WERE
RESPONDING UP THE DIRT ALLEY THAT YOU DESCRIBED, DID YOU

l
23
24
SEE ANYBODY RUNNING FROM THE PARK?
A. I DID NOT.
l
25 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY VEHICLES PARKED IN THE PARKING l
26 LOT OR DRIVING AWAY FROM THAT PARKING LOT?
27 A. I DID NOT. l
28 Q. IF YOU HAD SEEN SOMEBODY RUNNING DOWN THE
l
l
r
708
F
1 ALLEYWAY, WOULD YOU HAVE CONTACTED HIM?
r
: 2 A. ABSOLUTELY.
r
r 5
6 YOU.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BASED ON THAT, YES. THANK
r 7
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
i' 9 Q. YOU CAME UP THE ALLEY FROM THE NORTH OR THE

I
r 10
11
SOUTH?
A. CAME UP FROM THE SOUTH, HEADED NORTH, WHICH IS
r 12
13
TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THE PICTURE.
Q. AND HOW SOON AFTER THE GUNSHOTS DID YOU ARRIVE?
r 14
15
A. I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT TIME, ESTIMATE.
WAS SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
IT
r 16
17
Q.
A.
JUST PRETTY QUICK?
YES.
r 18 Q. AND ON PROSECUTION 2, YOU CAME FROM HERE,
r 19
20
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. AND, FOR THE RECORD, I'M POINTING AT WHERE THE
DIRT ALLEY APPEARS TO HIT THE TOP BORDER OF THE EXHIBIT.
r 23
24
A. YEAH. JUST A LITTLE PAST THAT, IT RUNS INTO
OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD.
r 25
26
Q. AND OCEAN VIEW IS THIS ROAD HERE ON THE TOP
PART OF THE EXHIBIT?
r 27 A. YES, IT IS.
r 28 Q. SO YOU DROVE YOUR POLICE CRUISER UP THIS ALLEY,
r
,
709
l
1 RIGHT?
2
3
A.
Q.
I DID.
AND IT WAS MAYBE A FEW MINUTES AFTER THE ,
4
5
6
GUNSHOTS?
A. SHORTLY THEREAFTER. I CAN'T TELL YOU WHETHER
IT'S A FEW MINUTES OR A LITTLE LONGER OR EVEN SOONER
, l
7 THAN THAT.
l
8
9
Q. AND YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY RUNNING FROM THE
AREA OF THE SHOOTING IN THAT DIRECTION SOUTH?
, j
10 A. NO, I DID NOT.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER. l
13 THE COURT: OFFICER CRENSHAW, THANK YOU, SIR. l
14
15
YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE DON'T
DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY OTHER WITNESS, EXCEPT
l
16
17
INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE TRIAL IS OVER. ALL RIGHT?
l
THE WITNESS: ALL RIGHT.
18 THE COURT: GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR. l
19 THE WITNESS: GOOD DAY TO YOU.
20 MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE CALL OFFICER MARK LUCCHESI. l
l
23
24
THE WITNESS: YES.
1
27 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. l
28 THE WITNESS: HI.
l
,
r 710
r
r
r 3
4
THE WITNESS: MARK LUCCHESI, L-U-C-C-H-E-S-I.
MARK LUCCHESI,
r 5
6
r 7
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 9 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER LUCCHESI.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
HI.
r 12
13
DEPARTMENT?
A. YES, I AM.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
EIGHT AND A HALF YEARS.
r 16 Q. WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
NORTHEASTERN DIVISION.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN NORTHEASTERN?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
ALMOST TWO YEARS.
WHAT PART OF TOWN DOES NORTHEASTERN DIVISION
r 21
22
SERVE?
A. MIRA MESA IS THE MOST SOUTHERN PART, ALL THE
r 23
24
WAY UP TO THE MOST NORTHERN IS RANCHO BERNARDO.
Q. WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT PRIOR TO
r 25 NORTHEASTERN?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
SOUTHEASTERN DIVISION.
HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE SOUTHEASTERN
r 28 DIVISION?
r
711
,
1
1
2
A.
Q.
ABOUT SIX AND A HALF YEARS.
ARE YOU AWARE OF THE HOMICIDE THAT TOOK PLACE
,
j
3 IN SEPTEMBER 13, 2008?

4 A. YES.
l
5
6
Q.
A.
THE FOLLOWING DAY, WERE YOU ON DUTY?
YES.
1
7 Q. WERE YOU CALLED OUT TO A RESIDENCE NEAR THAT
l
8 HOMICIDE SCENE?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. WHAT RESIDENCE WAS THAT?
11 A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE ADDRESS, BUT, YEAH, I WAS l
12 THERE.
13 Q. FOCUSING YOUR ATTENTION ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2,
l
14
15
DO YOU SEE THIS EXHIBIT?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PARK IN THE EXHIBIT? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DO YOU SEE THE RESIDENCE YOU RESPONDED TO ON l
19 THIS EXHIBIT?
20 A. YES. l
21
22
Q.
A.
WHICH ONE IS IT?
CAN I GO UP THERE AND POINT TO IT? IT WOULD BE
l
23
24
EASIER.
THE COURT: THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. THANK YOU.
l
25 THE WITNESS: THIS ONE RIGHT HERE. l
26 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. FOR THE RECORD, THE
27 OFFICER POINTED TO THE RESIDENCE IDENTIFIED AS HESNEYDA l
28 BUENDIA'S, THE ONE SHE WAS LIVING IN AT THE TIME.
l
, J
r 712
r"'
j
1 THE COURT: HESNEYDA BUENDIA, YES. SO REFLECT.
r 2
3 THE EXHIBIT.
JUROR 9: THE OFFICER WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF
F
I 4 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
r
l
5
6
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
I WILL POINT THAT OUT MYSELF.
THAT QUESTION FROM JUROR IN SEAT 9.
r 7
8
THANK YOU, SIR.
MR. TROCHA: IT WAS THE RESIDENCE RIGHT HERE,
r 9 THE ONE IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO THE DIRT ALLEY ON THE
r 10
11
NORTH END OF OCEAN VIEW PARK.
THE COURT: DID EVERYONE SEE THAT?
r 12
13
THANK YOU.
BY MR. TROCHA:
I SEE ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT TIME OF DAY DID YOU GO UP THERE?
IT WAS SOMETIME IN THE MORNING. I DON'T KNOW
r 16
17
THE EXACT TIME.
Q. DID YOU CONTACT THE RESIDENT IN THE HOUSE?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
INTEREST?
DID SHE INDICATE SOME ITEMS IN THE BACKYARD OF
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT ITEMS WERE THESE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
IT WAS A WHITE T-SHIRT.
DID YOU TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE ITEMS THAT WERE
r 25 SEIZED AND POINTED OUT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
OFFICER, I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A SERIES OF
r 28 PHOTOGRAPHS AND HAVE YOU REVIEW THEM TO YOURSELF FIRST,
r
713
,,
J
1 AND THEN I'LL ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. IS

2 THAT ALL RIGHT? l
A. YEAH, THAT'S FINE.
,
3 '-! I
4 Q. LET'S START WITH PEOPLE'S 71 ALL THE WAY J
5 THROUGH PEOPLE'S 83.

6 OFFICER, LET'S START WITH PEOPLE'S 71. NOW,
7 ALL OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS YOU TOOK YOURSELF, CORRECT? j
8 A. YES.
9 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 71, PHOTOGRAPH OF WESTWARD l
10 VIEW ON FRANKLIN, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
11 BY MR. TROCHA: l
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 71, THIS IS A WESTWARD VIEW ON
13 FRANKLIN, LOOKING DOWN TOWARDS THE RESIDENCE IN l
14
15
QUESTION?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. WE CAN SEE THE PARK ON THE RIGHT AS WELL AS THE
l
17 DIRT ALLEY AS WELL AS THE HOUSE, YES?
18 A. YES. l
19 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 72, PHOTOGRAPH OF FRONT
20 VIEW OF RESIDENCE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 72, IS THIS A FRONT VIEW
l
23
24
OF THE RESIDENCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. WE CAN SEE A SHORT PICKET FENCE RIGHT UP TO THE l
26 SIDEWALK, AS WELL AS THE FENCE ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE?
27 A. YES. l
28 Ill
l
,
r 714
r 1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 73, PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING
r 2 SOUTH FROM DIRT ALLEY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 3
4
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 73, THIS IS A SOUTHERN LOOKING
r 5
6
PHOTOGRAPH FROM THE DIRT ALLEY, LOOKING AT THE WOODEN
FENCE AS WELL AS THE RESIDENCE, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WE CAN SEE A POLICE OFFICER IN THE DISTANCE.
r 9
10
IS THAT YOU?
A. THAT WOULD BE ME.
r
I
11 Q. WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
r
l
12
13
A. I THINK I'M LOOKING AT THE SHIRT, BECAUSE
THERE'S A -- JUST BELOW WHERE I'M STANDING IS KIND OF A
r 14
15
HIGH-SET RETAINING WALL AND A BUNCH OF DEAD WEEDS, AND
THAT'S WHERE THE SHIRT WAS.
r 16
17
Q. SO THIS WOULD BE -- THE PHOTOGRAPHER WOULD BE
STANDING CLOSER TO FRANKLIN ITSELF, CORRECT, OFFICER?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. AND MS. BUENDIA'S BACKYARD IS LOWER THAN THE
ALLEY ITSELF.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
AND YOU'RE INDICATING APPROXIMATELY WHERE THE
r 23
24
T-SHIRT WOULD BE IF SOMEONE WERE LOOKING FROM THIS
DIRECTION.
r 25 A. RIGHT.
r 26
27
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 74, PHOTOGRAPH OF BUENDIA
BACKYARD, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.}
r
!
28 Ill
~
(
j
715
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 74, THIS IS A VIEW FROM l
3 THAT SAME LOCATION WE'VE JUST SEEN YOU STANDING IN; IS
4 THAT CORRECT? l
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AND, FOR THE RECORD, THAT'S LOOKING DOWN INTO
l
7 THE BUENDIA BACK YARD
l
8 A. RIGHT.
9 Q. -- FROM THE DIRT ALLEY. l
10 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 75, PHOTOGRAPH OF BACKYARD
11 AND ALLEY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
1
13
14
15
Q. PEOPLE'S 75 IS A VIEW FROM THAT RETAINING WALL,
SPLITTING BOTH THE BACKYARD AND THE DIRT ALLEY?
A. YEAH.
, 1
16 Q. CAN WE SEE THE T-SHIRT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH? l

17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. IS IT THAT WHITE OBJECT THAT LOOKS TO BE l
19 HANGING ON THE WALL?
20 A. RIGHT. l
21 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 76, PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE YARD ~
}
22 OF BUENDIA HOUSE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
24 Q. PEOPLE'S 76 IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE SIDE YARD,
25 IF YOU WILL, OF THE BUENDIA HOUSE, CORRECT? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. THIS WOULD BE LOOKING BACK IN A SOUTHERLY
1 J
28 DIRECTION AT THE T-SHIRT?

l
1 1
716
1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AND WE CAN BARELY SEE THE T-SHIRT IN THE BACK.
3 A. IT'S RIGHT HERE.
4 Q. AND YOU'VE INDICATED THE WHITE OBJECT TOWARDS
r 5
6
THE BACK CORNER OF THE YARD, FOR THE RECORD.
A. YES.
r 7
8
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 77, PHOTOGRAPH OF CLOSER
VIEW OF BACKYARD CORNER, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 9
10
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 77, THIS IS A CLOSER VIEW OF THAT
r 11 BACKYARD CORNER, AGREED?
r
(
12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU CAN SEE THE WHITE T-SHIRT AS WELL AS WHAT
r 14
15
APPEARS TO BE AN INFLATABLE CHILDREN'S POOL?
A. YES.
r 16
17
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 78, PHOTOGRAPH OFT-SHIRT,
r 18 BY MR. TROCHA:
PEOPLE'S 78, THIS IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE T-SHIRT
r
19 Q.
20 AGAIN?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND, AGAIN, IT'S HANGING OFF THE WALL?
r 23
24
A. YES.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 79, PHOTOGRAPH OFT SHIRT,
r 26
27
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 79 IS AN OPPOSITE VIEW OF THE SAME
r 28 T-SHIRT HANGING ON THE WALL FROM INSIDE THE BACKYARD?
r
717
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IS THIS COMMON TO TAKE PICTURES OF THESE ITEMS
3 IN THEIR STATE BEFORE YOU COLLECT THEM?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WHY DO YOU DO THAT?
6 A. TO SHOW HOW IT WAS BEFORE I COLLECT IT AND
7 IMPOUND IT.
8 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 80, PHOTOGRAPH OFT-SHIRT,
9 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
11
12
13
Q. LET'S GO ON TO PEOPLE'S 80.
T-SHIRT ITSELF, CORRECT, OFFICER?
A. YES.
THIS IS THE
,
]
14
15
Q. AND WE HAVE IT STRETCHED OUT ACROSS THE BACK OF
YOUR POLICE CAR?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. THERE APPEAR TO BE SOME DISCOLORATIONS IN THE
18 T-SHIRT, AGREED? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT DISCOLORATIONS CAN WE SEE? l
21 A. DO YOU WANT ME TO POINT THEM OUT OR --
22 Q. IF YOU CAN DO SO.
l
23
24
A.
PLACE.
SURE. THEY'RE JUST KIND OF DOTTED ALL OVER THE
AND THEN IN HERE THERE'S -- I GUESS FOR LACK OF
1
25 A BETTER TERM, IT'S WIDER, BUT LIGHTER STAINS OR MARKS, l
26 IT'S RIGHT HERE, AND IT CONTINUES ALL THE WAY THROUGHOUT
27 THE WHOLE SHIRT. l
28 Q. NOW, DID YOU DO ANY CHEMICAL TESTING ON THIS
l
,
r 718
r
r
1 SHIRT?
2 A. YEAH. IT WAS BLOOD, IS WHAT IT WAS.
3 Q. DID YOU TAKE A SWAB OF IT OR ANYTHING OF THAT
r 4 NATURE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
OH, YES. YES.
HOW DOES ONE GO ABOUT TAKING A SWAB OF THESE
r 7
8
ITEMS?
A. DO YOU WANT ME TO JUST GO THROUGH THE WHOLE
r 9 THING?
r 10
11
Q.
A.
PLEASE.
OKAY. BASICALLY, IT JUST COMES IN A LITTLE
r 12
13
KIT, AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE ALMOST LIKE A Q-TIP, AND
ONE END IT IS LIKE A LIQUID FORM, AND YOU JUST DIP IT
r 14
15
ONTO ONE OF THE STAINS THAT'S ON THE SHIRT.
AND I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I GOT THE RESULTS
r 16
17
IMMEDIATELY RIGHT THERE OR I HAD TO SEND IT OFF OR WHAT
IT WAS, BUT, ANYWAY, THE END RESULT, IT CAME OUT IT WAS
r 18 POSITIVE FOR BLOOD.
r 19
20
Q. AND THE STAINS -- OBVIOUSLY WE CAN'T SEE THEM
IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH ALL THAT WELL, BUT DID THEY APPEAR TO
r 21
22
BE BLOODSTAINS TO YOU AS WELL?
A. YEAH. THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE TO ME BEFORE
r 23
24
I DID ANY KIND OF TESTING.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 81, PHOTOGRAPH OF SIDE YARD
r 25 AND WOODEN PLANK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 81, WE'RE BACK IN THE
r 28 SIDE YARD OF THE HOME, CORRECT, OFFICER?
~
(
719
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IN THE FOREGROUND WE SEE WHAT APPEARS TO BE A l
3 WOODEN PLANK. DO YOU SEE THAT?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. DID YOU FIND ANY ITEMS OF INTEREST ON THAT
6 PLANK?
l
7
8
A. YEAH. THERE WERE STAINS OF BLOOD, LOOKS LIKE
JUST A COUPLE OF THEM THAT I CAN SEE RIGHT HERE, FROM
l
9 WHAT I REMEMBER. l
10 Q. AND YOU'VE INDICATED AN AREA CLOSER TO THE TOP
11 OF THE PLANK AS OPPOSED TO THE ONE IN THE FOREGROUND, l
12 CORRECT?
13 A. RIGHT.
l
14
15
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 82, PHOTOGRAPH OF
BLOODSTAINS ON WOODEN PLANK, WAS MARKED FOR
l
16 IDENTIFICATION.)
l
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. THIS WOULD BE A CLOSE-UP OF THE AREA IN l
19 PEOPLE'S 82. THIS WOULD BE THE BLOODSTAINS ON THE PLANK
20 ITSELF? l
21 A. YES.
l
22
23
Q.
A.
WE CAN MAKE OUT THREE RED DOTS?
YES.
, 1
24 Q. DID YOU TAKE SWABS OF THESE DOTS?
25 A. YES. l J
26 Q. IN THE SAME FASHION THAT YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER?

27 A. YEAH, SAME AS THE T-SHIRT. l
28 Q. THESE SWABS ARE THEN PACKAGED AND GIVEN TO YOUR
l
,
J
i
J
r 720
~
!
1 LAB FOR ANALYSIS?
r 2
3
A. YES.
{PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 83, PHOTOGRAPH OF
rm
I
I
4 INFLATABLE POOL, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
I 6 Q. PEOPLE'S 83, WE'RE BACK AT THE INFLATABLE POOL
r
I
7 IN THE BACKYARD. THIS WOULD BE A VIEW OF ONE OF THE
CORNERS OF THAT INFLATABLE POOL, CORRECT?
8
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q. CAN WE SEE ANY ITEMS THAT WERE COLLECTED IN
THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH. IT'S THIS BLOODSTAIN RIGHT HERE.
YOU'VE INDICATED WHAT APPEARS TO BE A RED
r 14
15
DISCOLORATION JUST ON THE LIP OF THE POOL.
A. YES.
r 16
17
BLOODSTAIN ON INFLATABLE POOL, WAS MARKED FOR
r
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 84 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT
r 21
22
DISCOLORATION, AGREED?
A. YES.
r 23
24
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 85, PHOTOGRAPH OFT-SHIRT,
r 25
26
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 85, FINALLY, IS THIS THE T-SHIRT
r 27 STRETCHED OUT THAT YOU RECOVERED FROM THE BACK YARD?
r 28 A. YES.
r
721
,
1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 155, T-SHIRT, WAS MARKED
I1
2
4
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. IT'S FALLEN DOWN A LITTLE BIT, OFFICER, BUT
, j
5 DOES THIS APPEAR, ITEM 44, WHICH WOULD BE MARKED AS

6
7
PEOPLE'S 155, TO BE THE T-SHIRT THAT WAS RECOVERED?
A. YES. .,
8 THE CLERK: IS THAT 155?
9 MR. TROCHA: IT IS. 1-5-5.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. DID YOU MAKE ANY CUTTINGS ON THIS T-SHIRT OR l
13 A. DID I MAKE ANY CUTTINGS? l
14
15
Q.
A.
DID YOU CUT ANY HOLES OUT?
NO.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
DID YOU DRAW ON IT AT ALL OR ANYTHING?
NO.
l
18 Q. WHEN YOU PACKAGED THIS T-SHIRT TO PUT IT INTO l
19 EVIDENCE, HOW WAS IT PACKAGED?
20 A. OH, ONCE I IMPOUND IT, I PUT IT IN JUST A BROWN 1
21 PAPER SACK.
22 Q. IS THIS A COMMON PROCEDURE, THAT ITEMS WITH
l _J
23
24
STAINING, OR MOST ITEMS ACTUALLY, ARE PUT IN BROWN PAPER
BAGS FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?
1
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. SO ALTHOUGH IT'S IN A PLASTIC FORM TODAY, IT
27 WAS PLACED IN A BROWN PAPER BAG EARLIER? l
28 A. YES.
l
1
r 722
r
r
1 Q. WITH YOUR NAME ON IT, WITH THE CASE NUMBER,
2 THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
DID ANYONE ELSE -- I'LL REPHRASE THAT.
r 5
6
DID MS. BUENDIA TOUCH ANY OF THESE ITEMS OR
HELP YOU PUT THEM IN THE BAG OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
JUST YOURSELF?
r 9 A. YEAH, IT WAS JUST ME.
r 10
11
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU. CROSS.
r 12
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 14
15
Q.
A.
GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER.
HELLO.
r 16
17
Q. COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK BACK AT PROSECUTION'S 80
FOR ME, IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND. THAT IS THE T-SHIRT THAT
r 18 WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
IT'S A BIG T-SHIRT, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT SIZE WAS IT?
r 23
24
A. I DON'T REMEMBER OFFHAND.
LEAST, OR EXTRA, EXTRA LARGE.

IT'S EXTRA LARGE AT
r 25 Q. IT WAS QUADRUPLE XL, WAS IT NOT?
r 26
27
ANYTHING TO GO OFF OF.

I DON'T HAVE ANY NOTES OR
r 28 Q. IT WOULDN'T HAVE FIT YOU.
r
723
,
l
1 A. NO.
2 Q. IT WAS FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS PRETTY BIG. l

3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. OKAY. AND THAT WAS MARKED BY THE POLICE AS l
5
6
ITEM NO. 44, CORRECT?
A. I GUESS SO. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT WAS
l
7 IMPOUNDED?
l
8 Q. YES.
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. IT WAS IMPOUNDED UNDER ITEM NO. 44?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. AND POINTING TO PROSECUTION 2, THE T-SHIRT WAS
13 FOUND RIGHT ABOUT AT THE ELBOW OF THIS RED LINE
l
14
15
PREVIOUSLY DRAWN, CORRECT?
A. CAN I WALK UP THERE? I CAN'T SEE THAT FAR.
l
16 THE COURT: YOU MAY WALK UP THERE. l
17 THE WITNESS: THANKS.
18 THE COURT: DO YOUR BEST, IF YOU CAN, TO l
19 POSITION YOURSELF TO ONE SIDE OF THE DIAGRAM SO THE
20 JURORS CAN SEE. l
21
22
Q. LET ME WALK BEHIND HERE, OFFICER, AND LET
l
23
24
YOU
A.
CAN YOU SEE THE EXHIBIT NOW?
YEAH.
l
25 Q. DO YOU SEE THE ALLEY THAT RUNS THROUGH THE l
26 MIDDLE OR TO THE EAST BORDER OF THE PARK?
27 A. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS ALLEY HERE? l
28 Q. THAT ALLEY THERE, YES, THE ONE THAT RUNS DOWN
l
r 724
r
1 THE EAST BORDER OF THE PARK.
r 2 A. RIGHT.
3 Q. THE SHIRT WAS FOUND HANGING ON A CLIFF, RIGHT?
r 4 A. IT WAS ON THE RETAINING WALL RIGHT HERE.
r 5
6
Q. NOW, THE RETAINING WALL IS BASICALLY LOWER BY
ABOUT 10 OR 15 FEET TO THE GROUND, RIGHT?
r 7
8 A.
LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
r 9
10
Q. THE HOUSE THERE THAT YOU POINTED TO THAT'S AT
THE CORNER OF THE ALLEY AND FRANKLIN --
r 11 A. OKAY.
12 Q. -- THE LEVEL OF THE BACKYARD IS ABOUT 10 TO 15
r 13 FEET BELOW THE DIRT ALLEY, RIGHT?
r 14
15
A. SO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WHERE THE BACKYARD IS,
WHERE THE POOL AND EVERYTHING WAS BACK HERE, IS 10 TO 15
r 16 FEET LOWER THAN --
r 17
18
Q.
A.
THE DIRT ALLEY.
THE DIRT ALLEY? I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS 10
19 OR 15 FEET. I'D SAY, IF I HAD TO GUESS, IT WAS MORE
r 20 LIKE ABOUT EIGHT OR NINE AT THE MOST.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
TALLER THAN YOU?
YES, IT WAS A LITTLE TALLER THAN I WAS.
r 23
24
Q. OKAY. SO IF YOU WERE COMING FROM THE DIRT
ALLEY, YOU WOULD HAVE TO JUMP DOWN ABOUT AN EIGHT-FOOT
r 25 JUMP?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YEAH.
ALL RIGHT. AND THE T-SHIRT WAS FOUND ON THE
r 28 RETAINING WALL THAT SORT OF SEPARATES THE YARD FROM THE
r
725
l
1
1
3
ALLEY, CORRECT?
A. YEAH. YOU CAN'T SEE IT IN HERE, BUT, YEAH, IT
WAS ON THE RETAINING WALL JUST HANGING IN THE WEEDS ON
,
4 THE TOP PART OF THE RETAINING WALL. l
5
6
Q. AND ON PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 2, THAT WOULD BE
AROUND WHAT WOULD BE THE TOP RIGHT CORNER OF THE HOUSE
l
7 THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT?
l
8 A. UP IN HERE.
9 Q. RIGHT. AND NOW THE BLOOD SPOTS THAT YOU WERE l
10 TALKING ABOUT, THEY WOULD BE DOWN AT THE BOTTOM RIGHT OF
11 THE HOUSE, CORRECT? 1
12 A. THE ONES ON THE RAMP?
13 Q. THE BLOOD SPOTS ON THE RAMP, CORRECT. THANK
l
14
15
YOU.
A. YEAH, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OVER HERE ON THE SIDE.
l
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND, FOR THE RECORD, THE l
17 OFFICER IS POINTING TO THE BOTTOM RIGHT CORNER OF THE
18 HOUSE PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED. l
19 THE COURT: YES, SO REFLECT.
20 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI. l
21
22
Q. AND ADDITIONAL BLOOD SPOTS WERE FOUND ON A
POOL, A LITTLE CHILDREN'S POOL.
l
23 A. RIGHT. THE POOL WAS RIGHT HERE NEXT TO THE
l
24 RETAINING WALL.
25 Q. RIGHT. THOSE WERE CLOSER TO THE T-SHIRT. l
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. OKAY. YOU CAN SIT DOWN. l
28 A. THANK YOU .
l
1
r
726
1 THE COURT: IS THIS A CONVENIENT TIME FOR THE

~
I
i 2 RECESS?
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT

4 TO STOP. IF NOT, I ONLY HAVE ONE OR TWO MORE.
r
[
5 THE COURT: NO PROBLEM. THANK YOU.
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST GIVE ME ONE SECOND,
r 7
8
YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SURE.
r 9 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZIBY:
10
r
l 11
Q. LAST QUESTION, OFFICER. THE BLOOD SPOTS THAT
YOU PICKED UP FROM THE RAMP, THOSE WERE IMPOUNDED UNDER
r 12
13
ITEM NO. 40; IS THAT RIGHT?
A. I GUESS SO. LIKE I SAID, I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING
r 14
15
TO GO OFF OF, SO WHATEVER IT WAS IMPOUNDED UNDER IS
WHATEVER THE NUMBER IS, YES.
r 16
17
Q.
OF IT?
AND YOU DON'T HAVE AN INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION
r 18 A. I DON'T.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:

OKAY. NOTHING FURTHER.
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO, THANK YOU.
OFFICER LUCCHESI, THANK YOU FOR
r 23
24
YOUR ATTENDANCE, SIR.
TO LEAVE.
YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE
PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY
r 25
26
WITNESS OTHER THAN INVESTIGATORS UNTIL THE TRIAL IS
OVER.
r 27 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
28 THE COURT: THANK YOU, SIR.

r
r
,
'iI
.J
727
1
2
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE THE
MID-AFTERNOON RECESS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
, J
3 PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.

4 WE'LL RECONVENE AT QUARTER AFTER THE HOUR OF THREE.
5 THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER. ,..,
J
6 WE ARE IN RECESS.
7 (MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.)
1
8
9
THE COURT:
GOOD AFTERNOON.
, 1
1
10 ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. MR. TROCHA.
11 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. WE WOULD l J
12 LIKE TO CALL JENNIFER SANDERS.

14
15
l
16 TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO 1 J
17 HELP YOU GOD?

18 THE WITNESS: I DO. l
21 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, MA'AM.
l
23
24
1
25 THE WITNESS: JENNIFER SANDERS, l
26 S-A-N-D-E-R-S.
27 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA. l
28 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
l
l
[
728
r 1 JENNIFER SANDERS,
r 2 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN,
r 3
4
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. SANDERS.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
YOU WORK FOR THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT;
r 9 IS THAT CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
I DO.
WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
r 12
13
DEPARTMENT?
A. I'M A CRIME SCENE SPECIALIST.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
OUR JOB IS TO RESPOND TO CRIME SCENES WHERE WE
r 16 PHOTOGRAPH, IDENTIFY, DOCUMENT, COLLECT AND PRESERVE
r
17 ITEMS OF EVIDENCE, AS WELL AS PROCESS ITEMS OF EVIDENCE
18 FOR POSSIBLE FINGERPRINT AND POSSIBLE DNA EVIDENCE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN DOING THIS JOB?
IN THIS JOB CAPACITY, APPROXIMATELY SIX AND A
r 21
22
HALF YEARS.
Q. DID YOU HAVE THIS SAME TYPE OF PROFESSION FOR
r 23
24
ANOTHER AGENCY?
A. I DID. PREVIOUS TO THIS JOB THAT I HAVE NOW, I
r 25 WORKED AS A FORENSIC SPECIALIST FOR CONCORD POLICE
r 26
27
DEPARTMENT UP IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA.
Q. HOW LONG AT THAT AGENCY?
r 28 A. APPROXIMATELY ONE YEAR.
r
729
1
1
1 Q. NOW, YOU'RE NOT A SWORN POLICE OFFICER,
2 CORRECT? l
3 A. NO, I'M NOT. I'M A CIVILIAN.
4 Q. WHAT SORT OF TRAINING DO YOU HAVE TO UNDERGO IN l
5
6
ORDER TO GAIN YOUR POSITION WITH SAN DIEGO PD?
A. MY TRAINING BEGAN IN THE CLASSROOM WHERE WE
l
7 LEARNED THE FUNDAMENTALS OF CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHY,
CRIME SCENE MANAGEMENT, FINGERPRINT PROCESSING AND
l
8
1
9
10
11
TECHNIQUES. THEN IT WAS ON-THE-JOB TRAINING WHERE WE
LEARNED MOST OF WHAT WE DO.
WE GO THROUGH INTENSE TRAINING UNDER DIRECT
,
12 SUPERVISION OF OUR CO-WORKERS. ONCE ALL OF OUR TRAINING
13 IS DONE, WE ARE TESTED, BOTH COMPETENT AND PROFICIENCY
l
14
15
TESTED, BEFORE WE'RE ALLOWED TO WORK ON OUR OWN.
Q. DO YOU UNDERGO TRAINING ON HOW TO COLLECT AND
l
16 PRESERVE CERTAIN FORMS OF EVIDENCE? l
17 A. YES, WE DO.
18 Q. WITH A T-SHIRT, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH SUSPECTED l
19 BLOODSTAINS ON IT, IS THERE A CERTAIN WAY THAT WOULD BE
20 PRESERVED IN EVIDENCE? l
21 A. IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER THAT APPARENT BLOOD IS
22 WET OR DRY WHEN WE COLLECT IT. IF IT'S DRY, THEN WE GO
l
23
24
AHEAD AND PACKAGE IT DIRECTLY INTO A PAPER BAG AND SEAL
IT UP. IF THE APPARENT BLOOD IS WET, WE HANG IT UP IN
l
25 ONE OF OUR DRYING HOODS, LET IT AIR DRY, AND THEN l
26 PACKAGE IT THE SAME WAY ONCE IT'S DRY.
27 Q. WHY DO YOU PUT IT IN A PAPER BAG AS OPPOSED TO, l
28 SAY, A VACUUM-SEALED PLASTIC BAG?
l
l
r 730
r 1 A. WE PUT EVERYTHING IN PAPER BECAUSE IT CAN

[ 2 BREATHE. IF WE STORE ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE
r 3
4
BIOLOGICAL CONTENT INTO A PLASTIC BAG, IT'S GOING TO
DECOMPOSE AT THAT POINT.
r 5
6
Q. IN TERMS OF USING THE PAPER BAG OR PAPER
PACKAGING FOR ITEMS OF EVIDENCE, IS THIS WHAT MOST
r 7
8
EVIDENCE IS PLACED IN?
A. YES, EITHER PAPER BAGS OR PAPER ENVELOPES.
r 9 Q. EXAMPLE OF A PAPER ENVELOPE -- WOULD THAT BE IF
r 10
11
YOU RECOVERED A BULLET, EITHER A PROJECTILE OR THE
CASING?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
ARE ANY ITEMS PUT IN PLASTIC?
r 14
15
A. THE ONLY TIME THEY ARE SEALED IN PLASTIC IS
DURING OUR PROCESSING OF EVIDENCE. IF WE'RE PROCESSING
r 16
17
PAPER ITEMS, WE HAVE TO USE A LIQUID CHEMICAL WHICH CAN
ADHERE TO THE FINGERS, SO AT THIS POINT WE SEAL IT UP IN
r 18 PLASTIC BEFORE WE IMPOUND IT BACK INTO THE PROPERTY
r
\
19
20
ROOM. OR IF WE HAVE EVIDENCE FROM A VICTIM WHO IS
UNFORTUNATELY DECOMPOSED, THAT EVIDENCE NEVER ACTUALLY
r 21
22
THOROUGHLY DRIES, SO WE HAVE TO SEAL THAT UP INTO A
PLASTIC-TYPE PACKAGING FOR ODORS AND FLUIDS.
r 23
24
Q. ARE SOME ITEMS ALSO PACKAGED IN PLASTIC FOR
PRESENTATION IN COURT?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q. IN TERMS OF DNA COLLECTION, ARE YOU TRAINED AND
EXPERIENCED IN THAT?
r 28 A. YES, I AM.
r
731
l
l
1 Q. HOW IS DNA ROUTINELY COLLECTED?
2 A. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT WE'RE COLLECTING IT FROM OR l
3 WHAT PURPOSE. IF WE'RE OUT IN THE FIELD COLLECTING
4 POSSIBLE DNA SAMPLES, WE USE A COTTON-TIP APPLICATOR, l
5
6
WHICH LOOKS LIKE A LARGE Q-TIP, STERILE WATER, AND THEN
WE USE TWO MANILA ENVELOPES. WE DOUBLE ENVELOPE SO
l
7
8
THERE'S NO SEEPAGE OR CONTAMINATION.
IN THE LAB IT'S DONE THE SAME WAY, BUT
l
9 DEPENDING ON THE TYPE OF ITEM, THE AREA THAT COULD BE l
10 SWABBED VARIES FROM ITEM TO ITEM.
11 Q. DO YOU ALSO TAKE DNA SAMPLES FROM PEOPLE TO l
12
13
COMPARE TO THESE ITEMS?
A. YES, WE DO. IF WE'RE COLLECTING DNA SAMPLES
1
14
15
FROM INDIVIDUALS, WE TAKE TWO OF THOSE COTTON-TIP
APPLICATORS AND WE SWAB THE INSIDE OF THE CHEEKS OF THE
l
16 INDIVIDUAL TO COLLECT THEIR CHEEK CELLS.
l
17 Q. IN TERMS OF THE COLLECTION OF DNA FOR YOUR JOB,
18 DO YOU ACTUALLY DO DNA ON THAT ANALYSIS? l
19 A. NO, I DO NOT.
20 Q. YOU ALSO HAVE EXPERIENCE AND TRAINING IN l
21 COLLECTING FINGERPRINTS?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES THAT CONSISTENT OF?
WHEN I COLLECT FINGERPRINTS, FOR THE MOST PART
l
25 IT'S ON DECEASED VICTIMS WHERE I CAN COLLECT l
26 FINGERPRINTS AT A SCENE IF IT'S NECESSARY TO DO SO FOR
27 IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES. MOSTLY THAT'S DONE AT THE l
28 MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE BY THEIR STAFF, BUT
l
l
732
r
l
1 OCCASIONALLY WE ARE CALLED UPON TO DO IT IN THE FIELD.
r
'-- 2 AS FAR AS FINGERPRINTING INDIVIDUALS AS FAR AS
3 SUSPECTS OR WITNESSES ARE CONCERNED, GENERALLY THE
r 4 DETECTIVE OR SOMEBODY FROM OUR LATENT PRINT UNIT WILL DO
r 5
6
THAT.
Q. MAYBE I MISSPOKE.
r
I
7 A. YES.
8 Q. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAKING
r 9 FINGERPRINTS OFF OF PEOPLE AND FINDING FINGERPRINTS ON

OBJECTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
r
10
11 A. YES, IT'S VERY DIFFERENT.
r 12
13
Q. DO YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE AND TRAINING IN
IDENTIFYING AND PRESERVING FINGERPRINTS ON OBJECTS?
[ 14 A. ON OBJECTS, WE ARE TRAINED TO DEVELOP THEM AND

15 PRESERVE THEM, AND THEN THEY ARE SENT OVER TO OUR LATENT
r 16 PRINT UNIT WHO ARE THE ONES WHO COMPARE AND IDENTIFY
17 THEM.
r 18 AS FAR AS MY TRAINING GOES, THAT WAS ALSO
r 19
20
STARTED IN THE CLASSROOM WITH COURSES IN FINGERPRINT
IDENTIFICATION, DEVELOPMENT AND COMPARISON, AND ALL THE
r 21
22
TECHNIQUES THAT ARE USED TO DEVELOP FINGERPRINTS ON
ITEMS OF EVIDENCE. AND, AGAIN, THAT WAS CONTINUED AS
r 23
24
ON-THE-JOB TRAINING, AND, AGAIN, I WAS TESTED BEFORE
ALLOWED TO PROCESS ACTUAL EVIDENCE.
r 25
26
Q. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL FORENSIC ANALYSIS, DO YOU DO
ANY FINGERPRINT COMPARISON, DNA TESTING, BLOOD TESTING,
r 27 OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
r 28 A. I DO NOT. OUR UNIT IS KIND OF THE BASELINE FOR
r
,
733
, J
I
J
1 ALL OTHER UNITS. WE BRING THE EVIDENCE IN. WE START

l
2
3
4
THE PROCESSING, AND THEN IT'S FURTHER ANALYZED THROUGH
OTHER AREAS OF OUR LABORATORY.
Q. GENERALLY SPEAKING, WHEN YOU ARRIVE AT A CRIME
, j
5 SCENE, WHAT IS YOUR FUNCTION AT THE CRIME SCENE?

6 A. MY FUNCTION AT THE CRIME SCENE IS TO ASSIST THE
l
7 SCENE DETECTIVE IN IDENTIFYING EVIDENCE, PHOTOGRAPHING
l
8
9
IT AND EVENTUALLY COLLECTING AND PRESERVING THAT
EVIDENCE FOR LATER PURPOSES.
, J
10 Q. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SHOW UP AT A CRIME SCENE?
11 A. WHEN I SHOW UP AT A CRIME SCENE, EVERYBODY IS l
12 WAITING FOR THE SCENE BRIEFING TO OCCUR, WHICH HAPPENS
13 BY THE RESPONDING PATROL SERGEANT WHO RESPONDED TO THE l
14
15
SCENE. WE GATHER AND WE GET THE INFORMATION FROM THE
PATROL SERGEANT AS FAR AS WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHY
l
16 WE'VE BEEN CALLED TO THE SCENE.
l
17 ONCE WE GOT ALL THE DETAILS AND WHAT THE
18 OFFICERS HAVE DONE TO THE SCENE TO PRESERVE THE SCENE l
19 AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED, THE SCENE DETECTIVE AND I WILL
20 THEN DO A WALK-THROUGH OF THE SCENE TO GET A VISUAL IDEA l
21 OF WHAT WE LEARNED DURING THE BRIEFING.
22 AT THAT POINT IS WHEN I START MY ACTUAL JOB OF
l
23
24
TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS.
Q. WHAT IS A WALK-THROUGH?
l
25 A. A WALK-THROUGH IS JUST WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE: l
26 WALKING THROUGH THE SCENE, GETTING AN IDEA OF WHAT YOUR
27 EVIDENCE IS GOING TO BE, HOW LARGE OF AN AREA YOUR SCENE l
28 IS GOING TO ENCOMPASS, SO I HAVE DIRECTION WHEN I START
l
l
r 734
r 1 TAKING MY PHOTOGRAPHS.
r 2 Q. ARE YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANY COLLECTION DURING
r 3
4
THE WALK-THROUGH?
A. NO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AND YOU MAY TAKE SOME PHOTOGRAPHS?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE WALK-THROUGH?
AFTER THE WALK-THROUGH, I BEGIN MY PHOTOGRAPHS
r 9
10
AND I TAKE WHAT'S CALLED OVERALL PHOTOGRAPHS.
GENERAL, LARGE-VIEW PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SCENE AND
THEY ARE
r 11 SURROUNDING AREA. THIS IS DONE TO SHOW YOU WHAT THE
r 12
13
SCENE LOOKS LIKE WHEN I ARRIVED, BEFORE ANYTHING HAS
CHANGED OR BEEN MOVED, PICKED UP, COLLECTED AND SO
[ 14 FORTH. I TAKE THESE OVERALL PHOTOGRAPHS.

15 ONCE THAT'S ESTABLISHED, THEN THE DETECTIVE AND
r 16
17
I WILL IDENTIFY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE. WHEN THEY'RE
IDENTIFIED, WE PLACE DOWN YELLOW PLACARDS THAT IDENTIFY
[ 18 THIS EVIDENCE, AND, AGAIN, I TAKE ANOTHER SERIES OF
r 19
20
PHOTOGRAPHS SHOWING WHERE THESE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE ARE
LOCATED IN THE SCENE AND HOW THEY'RE LOCATED TO EACH
r 21
22
OTHER.
ONCE THAT'S DONE, I TAKE UP CLOSE-UP
[ 23 PHOTOGRAPHS OF EACH INDIVIDUAL ITEM OF EVIDENCE.

24 Q. WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE PHOTOGRAPHS?
r 25 A. AFTER THE PHOTOGRAPHS ARE ALL TAKEN, THEN WE
r
26 COLLECT THE EVIDENCE. I COLLECT EACH INDIVIDUAL ITEM OF
27 EVIDENCE SEPARATELY, AND THE SCENE DETECTIVE, I DIDN'T
r 28 MENTION, ALSO MEASURES THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE TO MAKE A
r
735
l
l
1
2
3
DIAGRAM OF THE SCENE.
Q. IN TERMS OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THINGS OF THAT
NATURE, ARE THESE IMPOUNDED INTO EVIDENCE AS WELL?
,,
j
4 A. YES. THE ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHS I TAKE -- WE USE
5 DIGITAL CAMERAS -- WE DOWNLOAD THE PHOTOGRAPHS ONTO ~
7
DISCS THAT WE PRESENT TO THE DETECTIVE. WE BURN WHAT'S
CALLED A MASTER DISC, WHICH IS ALL THE IMAGES THAT ARE
,
J
1
8 TAKEN OFF THE CAMERA WITHOUT ANY ROTATION OF IMAGES, ANY
9 LIGHTENING OR DARKENING OF IMAGES. IT'S EXACTLY HOW l
10 THEY WERE TAKEN IS PRESERVED ON THAT DISC, AND A COPY OF
11 THAT DISC ARE STORED IN OUR LABORATORY FILES. l
12 Q. GIVEN THAT YOU COME OUT TO THE SCENES OF ANY
13 CRIME, INCLUDING HOMICIDES, DO YOU THEN HAVE TO BE
l
14
15
PRESENT EVERY TIME AN ITEM OF EVIDENCE IS COLLECTED IN
THE CASE?
l
16 A. NO, WE DON'T. l
17 Q. SO A POLICE OFFICER COULD COLLECT EVIDENCE
18 SEVERAL DAYS LATER. l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT YOU WOULD BE CALLED l
OUT TO COLLECT ITEMS SEVERAL DAYS LATER?
21
1
22
23
24
A.
Q.
THAT IS ALSO POSSIBLE.
IS IT JUST WITHIN THE DISCRETION OF THE OFFICER
OR DEPENDING ON WHAT KIND OF ITEM IT IS?
,
25 A. YES. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE SITUATION AND l
26 WHAT'S INVOLVED.
27 Q. WERE YOU CALLED OUT TO A SCENE IN THIS CASE ON l
28 SEPTEMBER 13, 2008?
l
l
r 736
r 1 A. YES, I WAS.
r 2 Q. WHERE WAS THIS SCENE LOCATED?
r 3
4
A. I'LL HAVE TO REFER TO MY NOTES ON THAT ONE.
THE SCENE WAS LOCATED AT 300 SOUTH 40TH STREET.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
IS THIS A PARK?
YES, IT WAS.
r 7
8 2.
Q. CAN I FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT
r 9 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PARK?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
IS THAT THE PARK YOU RESPONDED TO ON THE NIGHT
r 12
13
IN QUESTION?
A. YES, IT IS.
r 14
15
Q. JUMPING AHEAD JUST A LITTLE BIT, WERE YOU ABLE
TO COMPILE -- GIVEN ALL OF YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS,
rL 16 MEASUREMENTS OF THE DETECTIVES AND YOUR OWN
17 OBSERVATIONS, WAS A DIAGRAM COMPILED TO ASSIST YOU IN
[ 18 THIS CASE?
r 19
20
A. YES, A DIAGRAM WAS GENERATED BY A VOLUNTEER IN
THE HOMICIDE UNIT.
r 21
22
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 241, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK,
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. LET'S START WITH -- YOU SEE PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
r 25 NOW SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT
r 26
27
241.
DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE DIAGRAM WE'RE
r 28 REFERRING TO?
r
737
l
l
1 A. YES, IT IS.
2 Q. DOES IT APPEAR TO BE THE SAME PARK AS WE SEE IN l
3 PEOPLE'S 2?
4 A. YES. l
Q. YOU TOOK SEVERAL PICTURES AT THE SCENE,
5
6 CORRECT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
DID YOU CONFORM WITH THE PROCEDURES YOU'VE
l
l
9
10
11
DESCRIBED TO THE JURY ABOUT THE WALK-THROUGH AND THINGS
OF THAT NATURE?
A. YES, I DID.
,
r
12 Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS

13 NUMBERED 4 THROUGH 70, AND WE WILL GO THROUGH THESE WITH
l
14 THE JURY WITH THE TELEVISION BEHIND YOU.
l
15
16
THE COURT:
THROUGH 70 INCLUSIVE?
BEFORE WE BEGIN, MR. TROCHA, 4
ALL OF THOSE?
,
J
17 MR. TROCHA: INCLUSIVE. SOME WE MAY HAVE SEEN
18 BEFORE, YOUR HONOR, BUT THE BULK OF THEM WE HAVE NOT. l
19 THE COURT: FOR OUR SUBSTITUTE CLERK, I DO KNOW
20 THAT 37 THROUGH 66 WERE PREVIOUSLY MARKED AND DESCRIBED l
21
22
AND SHOULD BE IN THE MINUTES SOMEWHERE, AS WELL AS THE
ONES WE COVERED TODAY.
l
23 THE CLERK: THAT'S CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. THANK
l
24 YOU.
26 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY PROCEED.
28 Ill
l
l
r -
738
r
BY MR. TROCHA:
r
1
2 Q. ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE UPON THIS
r 3
4
SCENE?
A. I BELIEVE I ARRIVED JUST AFTER 11:00 P.M.
rm
I
5 Q. SO IT WOULD BE SEVERAL HOURS AFTER THE CALL
I
6 WENT OUT?
rm;J
I 7 A. YES.
8 Q. OBVIOUSLY IT'S AT NIGHT, CORRECT, MS. SANDERS?

r 9 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 10
11
Q.
NIGHT?
DO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS AT
r 12 A. YES, WE DO.
13 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4, THE NORTHWEST CORNER
r 14
15
SECTION OF THE PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 16 Q. AS WE LOOK AT PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4, CAN YOU TELL
r 17
18
US HOW PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4 APPEARS IN RELATION TO HOW IT
ACTUALLY APPEARED TO THE NAKED EYE.
rm 19 A. BEING THAT IT WAS NIGHTTIME, IT WAS OBVIOUSLY

I
20 MUCH DARKER THAN THE PHOTOGRAPH YOU SEE IN FRONT OF YOU.
r 21
22
IN ORDER TO TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH, YOU NEED TO
UTILIZE LIGHT, WHETHER IT BE LIGHT THAT I'M GIVING OFF
r 23 WITH MY CAMERA OR SURROUNDING LIGHT, WHICH IN THIS CASE
r
24 I USED BOTH. MOST OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS WERE TAKEN USING
25 TIMED EXPOSURES, MEANING FOR SEVERAL SECONDS OF TIME THE
r 26
27
CAMERA IS ABSORBING THE LIGHT SURROUNDING FROM THE AREA
AS WELL AS THE FLASH ON TOP OF MY CAMERA.
r 28 AND I HAVE TO DO THAT IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY SEE
r
739
1 WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IN THIS AREA. OUR NAKED EYE CAN

2 DISCERN A LOT MORE THAN A CAMERA CAN, SO WHEN WE'RE
3 LOOKING WITH OUR NAKED EYE AT NIGHTTIME, WE CAN MAKE OUT ~
I
I
4 A LOT MORE DETAILS THAN YOU CAN ACCURATELY DEPICT WITH A

5 CAMERA. SO IN ORDER TO SHOW WHAT I'M LOOKING AT, I HAVE
6 TO MAKE IT MUCH LIGHTER IN ORDER TO GET DETAILS FOR THE
7 CAMERA.
8 Q. SO IF THE AVERAGE PERSON WENT OUT THERE WITH A
~
,
I
9 POINT-AND-SHOOT CAMERA AND TOOK A PICTURE, IT WOULDN'T
10 BE SHOWING AS MUCH AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4 IS SHOWING US.
11 A. NOT NECESSARILY, NO. I
~
12 Q. IT MAY BE JUST A FEW FEET IN FRONT OF HOWEVER i
'I
13 FAR THE FLASH GOES.
14 A. YES, DEPENDING ON THE POINT-AND-SHOOT. THEY'RE
15 GETTING VERY HIGH TECH THESE DAYS.
1
16 Q. SO WE'RE USING YOUR ABILITIES TO SHOW US MORE l
17 IN TERMS OF YOUR PHOTOGRAPHY.

18
19
A.
Q.
ABSOLUTELY.
IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU WERE TAKING PICTURES OF ,
20
21
THAT NIGHT, OBVIOUSLY YOU COULD SEE SOMETHING IF YOU
WERE TAKING A PICTURE OF IT, CORRECT?
, I
22 A. YES.
23 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE VISIBILITY AS 11:00 l
24 THAT NIGHT?
25 A. IT WAS DARK. UNFORTUNATELY, I DON'T HAVE AN l
26 ACCURATE RECALL AS TO HOW DARK IT WAS. SINCE MY ROLE
27 THERE IS TO TAKE THE PHOTOGRAPHS, I'M USING THE FALSE
l
28 LIGHTING TO TAKE MY PICTURES. THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I
l
, i
r 740
r
r 1
2
WOULD DOCUMENT IN MY NOTES AS FAR AS HOW WELL I CAN SEE.
THAT WOULD BE MORE OF THE SCENE DETECTIVE'S JOB AT THAT

~ 3 POINT.
I
!
4 Q. IF THERE WERE FOG OR OTHER TYPE OF WEATHER
r 5 CONDITIONS, WOULD WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS
6 AS WELL?
f5l
I
7 A. YES. IF THERE WAS FOG, I WOULD HAVE A LOT OF
8 WHITISH BACKGROUND REFLECTING THE LIGHT WHEN I TOOK THE

r~
L 9 PHOTOGRAPH.
r 10
11
Q. LET'S START WITH PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4. THIS IS A
PHOTOGRAPH OF WHAT WOULD BE THE NORTHWEST CORNER SECTION
r 12
13
OF THE PARK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. MAY I REFER TO MY PHOTOGRAPH OF THE DIAGRAM
r 14
15
JUST SO I CAN GET MY REFERENCE ON NORTH AND SOUTH?
Q. SURE. AND YOU HAVE AN EXACT COPY OF THAT
r 16 DIAGRAM?
r 17
18
A.
YOUR --
YES, I DO. SO, I'M SORRY, CAN YOU REPEAT
r 19
20
Q. SURE. DOES PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4 SHOW THE
NORTHWESTERN PORTION OF THE PARK?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, IT DOES.
IN THE FOREGROUND WE CAN SEE PLACARDS 1 AND 2;
r 23 IS THAT CORRECT, MS. SANDERS?
r 24
25
A.
Q.
YES, WE CAN.
WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT FOR 1 AND 2?
r 26
27
A. FOR ITEM NO. 1, IT WAS WHAT APPEARED TO BE AN
APPARENT BLOODSTAIN IN THE GRASS. AND ITEM 2, I
r 28 BELIEVE, WAS A BASEBALL HAT.
r
741
1 Q. AND TO HELP ORIENT THE JURY, THE SAME ITEMS ON

2 THE PLACARDS, ARE THEY THE SAME RED NUMBERS ON PEOPLE'S
3 241?
4 A. YES, THEY ARE.
5 Q. SO WE CAN SEE 1 AND 2 ON THE LEFT-HAND PORTION?
7 Q. AND, AGAIN, ALL THESE PICTURES WITH THE
8 PLACARDS NEXT TO THEM, THESE ARE BEFORE THE ITEMS ARE
9
10
COLLECTED?
A. YES. ,
11
12 NATURE?
Q. THERE'S NO RESTAGING OF ITEMS OR THINGS OF THAT
, j
13 A. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
..,
14 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 5, PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTING i
I
J
15 PLACARDS 3, 4, 5, 6 AND 7, WAS MARKED FOR

17 BY MR. TROCHA: ~
18 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 5, THIS IS DEEPER

I
;
19 IN THE PARK DEPICTING WHAT PLACARD NUMBERS?

l
20
21
A.
Q.
THESE ARE DEPICTING 3, 4, 5, 6 AND 7.
AND WE CAN SEE THAT GROUP ALSO IN PEOPLE'S 241
, l
22 JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE WALKWAY?
24 Q. WHAT ARE ITEMS 3, 4, 5, 6 AND 7?
25 A. I'M GOING TO REFER TO MY REPORT AS THEY'RE VERY l
26 SMALL IN MY PHOTOGRAPH.
27 ITEM 3 WAS SOME CLOTHING, 4 AND 5 WERE SHOES l
28 AND SOCKS, 6 WAS ANOTHER AREA OF APPARENT BLOOD, AND 7
l
r 742
r
i
1 WAS TWO SHIRTS.

i
I,
2 Q. AND YOU HAVE MORE CLOSE-UPS OF THESE ACTUAL
r
,_
3
4
ITEMS, CORRECT?
A. YES, I DO.
i
i.
5 Q. IN PEOPLE'S 5, BEFORE WE SKIP AHEAD, WE CAN SEE
6 WHAT APPEAR TO BE A VERY BRIGHT OBJECT OVER THE TREES;
r 7
8
IS THAT RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. IS THAT THE SUN OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE?
r 10
11
A. IT IS NOT THE SUN. IT IS ONE OF THE LIGHTS
THAT WERE SET ABOUT IN THE PARK. AND, AGAIN, WHEN I
iL 12 EXPLAINED MY TIMED EXPOSURE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHY -- ANY
13 EXISTING LIGHTS THAT ARE IN YOUR PHOTOGRAPH ARE JUST
r 14 GOING TO BECOME VERY INTENSE BECAUSE YOU'RE ABSORBING SO
r 15
16
MUCH LIGHT INTO YOUR PHOTOGRAPH.
Q. WAS THAT LIGHT ON WHEN YOU WERE THERE?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
YES, IT WAS.
WAS IT TURNED ON FOR YOUR BENEFIT OR ANYTHING
r 19
20
OF THAT NATURE?
A. NO.
~
21 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 6, PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTING
I
22 PLACARDS 3, 4, 5, 6 AND 7, WAS MARKED FOR
r 24
25
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 6, NOW, THIS IS AGAIN THE
r 26
27
SAME GROUP OF ITEMS, 3 THROUGH 7, BUT NOW WE'RE LOOKING
WEST AT THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 28 A. I BELIEVE WE'RE LOOKING NORTH.
r
743
1 Q. NORTH?
2 A. NO, YOU ARE CORRECT. WE ARE LOOKING WEST.
3 Q. AND THIS IS JUST KIND OF A FEEL OF HOW YOU TAKE
4 PICTURES FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT?
5 A. YES. AND THIS SHOWS THE RELATIONSHIP FROM ONE
6 ITEM TO ANOTHER THAT YOU CAN'T ALWAYS GET FROM ONE
7 ANGLE. YOU MIGHT GET THE DEPTH FROM ONE DIRECTION BUT
8 NOT THE OTHER.
9 Q. IN PEOPLE'S 6, WE CAN KIND OF SEE WHAT LOOKS TO
10 BE WHITENESS ON TOP OF THE GRASS; IS THAT CORRECT?
11
12
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS? ,
13
14
A.
Q.
THAT IS DEW.
DO YOU REMEMBER HOW HOT OR COLD IT WAS THAT
, )
I
15 NIGHT?
16 A. I DO NOT. YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE ALL OF OUR l
17 LITTLE FOOTPRINTS WALKING THROUGH THE GRASS.
18 Q. SO THAT'S NOT SNOW OR FROST OR ANYTHING.
19 A. NO.
20 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 7, PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEMS 1
21 AND 2, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. PEOPLE'S 7, THIS IS AGAIN LOOKING AT ITEMS 1 1
24 AND 2 TOWARDS 40TH STREET IN A NORTHWEST DIRECTION?
25 A. YES.
1 J
26 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 8, PHOTOGRAPH OF A BREAK IN

27 THE FENCE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
1
28 Ill
l
l I
)
r 744
r
r 1
2
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 8 APPEARS TO BE A BREAK IN THE FENCE
r 3
4
TAKEN FROM INSIDE THE DIRT ALLEYWAY LOOKING WEST.
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
r 5
6
Q. IN THE BACKGROUND WE CAN START MAKING OUT THE
YELLOW PLACARDS OF 3 THROUGH 7.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES, THAT SAME GROUP OF EVIDENCE.
OFF TO THE LEFT, WE CAN SEE THE ROOFTOP OF THE
r 9 BATHROOMS?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
AGAIN, WE CAN SEE THE LIGHT IN THAT BACKGROUND
r 12
13
AS WELL.
A. YES. IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S NEXT TO OR NEAR THE
r 14
15
BATHROOMS.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 9, PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEM 1,
r 17
18
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 9, NOW, THIS IS SOME OF
r 19
20
THE CLOSE-UP WORK, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
ITEM 1.
SO WE'RE NOW LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 9 DEPICTING
r 23 A. THAT IS CORRECT.
r 24
25
Q.
PEOPLE'S 9?
CAN WE SEE THE STAINING YOU DESCRIBED IN
r 26
27
A. IF YOU CAN SEE THE DISCOLORATION IN THE GRASS
KIND OF SURROUNDING THE PLACARD, THAT WOULD BE SOME OF
r 28 THE APPARENT BLOOD THAT I COLLECTED FROM THE GRASS.
r
, J
745
l
1
2
Q.
ARROW.
WE CAN ALSO SEE A BLUE RULER AND AN ORANGE , i
A. YES.
3
4 Q. WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THOSE ITEMS?

l
l
,
5 A. THE RULER IS FOR SCALE. IF YOU EVER WANTED TO
6 BLOW UP A PHOTOGRAPH SO THAT IT'S ACCURATE SIZE, YOU
7 NEED A SCALE, SO WE USE THE RULER TO SHOW THE !
8 DIMENSIONS. THE ARROWS WE ALWAYS USE TO POINT NORTH,

9 AND THAT'S SO THAT WE CAN ORIENT THE PHOTOGRAPHS INTO l
10 OUR DIAGRAMS. ~
I
j
11 Q. HOW LONG IS THAT RULER?
12
13
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT SIX INCHES.
IS THAT THE SAME RULER USED THROUGHOUT?
l
14 A. YES.
l
15 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 10, PHOTOGRAPH OF ITEM 2,
16 BASEBALL HAT, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. PEOPLE'S 10 IS ITEM 2. WHAT IS ITEM 2? l
19 A. IS A BASEBALL HAT.
20 Q. AND, AGAIN, WE CAN SEE THE BLUE OBJECT, THE
l
21
22
RULER, AND THE ORANGE ARROW POINTING NORTH?
A. CORRECT.
l
23 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 158, HAT, WAS MARKED FOR l j
24 IDENTIFICATION.)
25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. LET'S TAKE A BREAK HERE, MS. SANDERS, AND FOCUS
27 YOUR ATTENTION ON PEOPLE'S 158. CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT l
28 THAT ITEM.
l
1 j
r
r 746
r 1
2
PEOPLE'S 158 IN YOUR HAND,
WE SEE IN PEOPLE'S 10?
IS THAT THE SAME HAT
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
WHO COLLECTED IT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I DID.
WE CAN SEE IN ADDITION TO THE HAT IN THIS

F'
l 7 PLASTIC BAG A WHITE PAPER AND A BROWN BAG?
r
!
8
9
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
IS THAT THE PACKAGING THIS HAT WAS MAINTAINED
r 10
11
IN WHEN IT WAS PUT INTO EVIDENCE?
A. THE BROWN PAPER BAG IS MY EVIDENCE COLLECTION.
r 12
13
THE WHITE PAPER IS AFTER BEING EXAMINED BY ANOTHER UNIT.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 11, PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD
r 14
15
NO. 3 AND CLOTHING, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 16 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 11.
r 17
18
PEOPLE'S 11 DEPICTS PLACARD NO. 3 AS WELL AS
SOME CLOTHING.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
THE STAINING WE SEE IN THAT CLOTHING, IS THAT
r 21
22
BLOODSTAINS?
A. I BELIEVE SO, YES.
r 23 Q. SO THIS WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE, IF THAT WAS WET,
r 24
25
IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TAKEN BACK TO THE DEPARTMENT AND
DRIED BEFORE PACKAGING?
r 26
27
A. YES. AND IT WAS AND I DID.
r 28 NO. 4 AND SHOE AND SOCK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r
747
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2
3
4
Q.
A.
Q.
PEOPLE'S 12 DEPICTS ITEM OR PLACARD ITEM 4?
YES.
YOU CAN SEE AT LEAST ONE SHOE AND A SOCK,
, J
~
5 CORRECT? I
6 A. YES. ITEM 4 IS THE SHOE ON THE RIGHT WITH THE

7 ADJACENT SOCK.
8 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 13, PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD
9 NO. 5 AND SHOE AND SOCK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. PEOPLE'S 13 IS PLACARD NO. 5?
12 A. WHICH IS THE OTHER SHOE AND SOCK.
l
13
14
NO. 6 AND REDDISH STAIN, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
, J
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. PEOPLE'S 14 IS PLACARD NO. 6. WHAT ARE WE l
17 LOOKING AT HERE?
18 A. WE'RE LOOKING AT THE REDDISH STAIN TO THE RIGHT
19 OF THE ORANGE ARROW, AND NO. 6 PLACARD, A SWAB OF
20 APPARENT BLOOD.
l
21
22
Q. AND, AGAIN, IF WE LOOK BACK AT PEOPLE'S 241, WE
CAN SEE THE RELATION OF WHERE THEY ALL FELL WITHIN EACH
l
23 OTHER? l
24 A. YES.
l J
26 NO. 7 AND TWO SHIRTS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

27 BY MR. TROCHA: l
28 Q. PEOPLE'S 15 SHOWS PLACARD NO. 7?
l
l
r 748
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THIS THE TWO T-SHIRTS OR TWO SHIRTS THAT YOU
r 3
4
DESCRIBED EARLIER?
A. YES.
r 5
6
NO. 9 AND PLACARD NO. 10, WAS MARKED FOR
r 7
8
IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9 Q. PEOPLE'S 16 IS TAKEN FROM WHAT MIGHT BE NEAR
r 10
11
THE CORNER OF 40TH AND FRANKLIN, LOOKING EAST?
A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. WE CAN SEE CRIME SCENE TAPE ON THE RIGHT,
PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED VEHICLES ON THE LEFT. I WANT TO
r 14
15
FOCUS ON THE TWO YELLOW PLACARDS.
WHAT NUMBERS ARE THOSE, MS. SANDERS?
r 16 A. THE ONE TO THE RIGHT IS PLACARD NO. 9, AND THE
r 17
18
ONE TO THE LEFT IS PLACARD NO. 10.
Q. WE'LL GET BACK TO THOSE.
r 19
20
WE'RE LOOKING NOW AT PEOPLE'S 17, WHICH IS A
DIRT ALLEYWAY WITH A VEHICLE IN IT IN THE CENTER,
r 21
22
LOOKING SOUTHBOUND?
A. CORRECT.
r 23 Q. WE CAN SEE AT LEAST ONE PLACARD IN THIS
r 24 PHOTOGRAPH, CAN WE NOT?

25 A. YES. IT'S PLACARD NO. 11 IN FRONT OF THE FRONT
r 26
27
DRIVER TIRE.
Q. SO REFERRING BACK TO PEOPLE'S 241, YOU TALKED
r 28 ABOUT 1 THROUGH 7, NOW WE'VE MOVED ON TO 9 AND 10, WHICH
r
749
l
1 ARE NORTHERLY TOWARDS FRANKLIN, CORRECT? ~
I
\
2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. NOW WE'RE MOVING BACK UP THE DIRT ALLEY? ~
I
1
J
5
6
Q. PEOPLE'S 18 IS A DRIVER'S SIDE VIEW OF THE SAME
VEHICLE IN THE ALLEYWAY. WE CAN SEE PLACARD 11 AS WELL
l
~
7 AS NOW PLACARD 12? I
l
8 A. YES.
9 Q. PEOPLE'S 19 IS A REAR VIEW OF THAT SAME CAR. 1
10 WE CAN SEE TWO MORE PLACARDS, CORRECT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT ARE THE TWO PLACARDS?
l
13
14
A. THE ONE CLOSEST TO THE VEHICLE IS PLACARD 13,
AND THE ONE BY THE FENCE IS PLACARD 14.
, l
15 Q. WE'LL GET TO THOSE AS TO WHAT THEY REPRESENT.
16 PEOPLE'S 20 IS A MUCH MORE DISTANCE VIEW OF THE l
17 SAME MAXIMA NOW LOOKING NORTH. WE CAN SEE A PLACARD IN
18 THE FOREGROUND, CORRECT? l
19 A. YES.
l
20
21
22
Q.
A.
Q.
WHAT PLACARD IS THAT?
THAT IS PLACARD 15.
MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 21, NOW WE ARE LOOKING
, J
23 EAST FROM THE PARK AT THE MAXIMA AND A RED BUDWEISER BOX 1
24 PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED.
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHAT NUMBER IS THAT PLACARD?
27 A. THAT IS PLACARD 8.
l
28 Q. SO NOW IF YOU LOOK BACK AT PEOPLE'S 241, 8 IS
l
l
r 750
r
r 1
2
BELOW 3 THROUGH 7?
A. BELOW ON THE DIAGRAM?
r 3
4
Q.
A.
YES.
YES.
r 5
6
Q. AND ALSO LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 241, PLACARD 15 IS
THE LOWEST OR MOST SOUTHERN PLACARD; WOULD THAT BE
r 7 CORRECT?
r 8
9
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE SO, YES.
PEOPLE'S 22 IS AGAIN LOOKING AT THE BUDWEISER
r 10
11
BOX, LOOKING WEST?
A. CORRECT, FROM THE ALLEY.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
PEOPLE'S 23 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT ITEM?
YES.
r 14 Q. MS. SANDERS, ITEM 8, OR PLACARD 8, WHAT DOES IT
r
15 REPRESENT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
16 A. AT THIS POINT, PLACARD 8 REPRESENTS THE ENTIRE
r 17
18
BUDWEISER BOX, THE BEER BOTTLE THAT'S SITTING ON TOP OF
IT, AS WELL AS THE SNACK BAG THAT'S SITTING ON TOP OF
r 19
20
THE BOX AS WELL.
Q. DID YOU RECOVER ALL OF THESE ITEMS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DID.
IN TERMS OF THE BEER BOTTLE, DID YOU HAVE TO DO
r 23 ANYTHING PARTICULAR WITH THAT BOTTLE?
r
24 A. WHEN I COLLECTED IT OR LATER?
25 Q. WHEN YOU COLLECTED IT.
r 26
27
A. WHEN I COLLECTED IT? I DON'T RECALL IF I PUT
IT IN A SEPARATE BAG, BUT I MIGHT HAVE. I DON'T RECALL
r 28 AT THIS TIME.
r
751
~
,
J
1 Q. IF AN ITEM SUCH AS A BEER BOTTLE HAS LIQUID IN

2
3
IT, WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH THE LIQUID?
A. IF A BOTTLE OR A CUP HAS LIQUID IN IT, IT'S UP , !
4
5
TO THE DISCRETION OF THE SCENE DETECTIVE WHETHER OR NOT
THEY WANT US TO PRESERVE ANY OF THAT LIQUID. IN THIS
, )
j
6 CASE WE DID, NOT SO THE LIQUID WAS DISCARDED AT THE
~
7 SCENE AND THEN THE BOTTLE COLLECTED EMPTY. J
8 Q. SO ALL OF THESE ITEMS -- THE BOX, THE BOTTLE,

l
9
10
11
AS WELL AS THE BAG ON TOP OF THE BOX -- THEY WERE ALL
PACKAGED AS ITEM 8?
A. CORRECT.
, j
12
13
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 159, ITEM 8, WAS MARKED FOR
IDENTIFICATION.)
l
14 BY MR. TROCHA: l
15 Q. SHOWING YOU NOW WHAT'S BEEN MARKED PEOPLE'S
16 159, IT'S WRITTEN ITEM 8 ON THIS PLASTIC BAG. I'M NOT l
17 GOING TO ASK YOU IF IT'S THE SAME BEER BOTTLE, BUT GIVEN
18 YOUR HISTORY WITH THIS CASE AND GIVEN YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF l
19
20
THE EVIDENCE, IS THAT, IN FACT, ITEM 8?
A. IT IS.
l
21 Q. NOW, THIS ITEM WAS OBVIOUSLY DAMAGED AT SOME
l
22 POINT?
23 A. AT SOME POINT. l
24 Q. DOES THIS HAPPEN FROM TIME TO TIME?
25 A. IT OCCASIONALLY DOES. THE ENORMITY OF THE l
26 AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE WE HAVE IN OUR PROPERTY ROOM, THINGS
27 ARE BUMPED, DROPPED, EVEN BOXES MAY BE DROPPED AND THE
l
28 CONTENTS RATTLED. IT HAPPENS.
l
l
r 752
r
r 1
2
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHEN IT WAS DAMAGED?
I DO NOT. SOMETIME AFTER I IMPOUNDED IT.
r 3
4
Q. THANK YOU.
r 5
6
NO. 9, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 7 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 24.
WE'RE LOOKING AT PLACARD NO. 9 IN PEOPLE'S 24?

r
8
9 A. YES.
r 10
11
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 160, BEER BOTTLE, WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 12
13
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
r 14
15
PEOPLE'S 160.
AFTER A REVIEW OF PEOPLE'S 160, IS THAT THE
r 16 BEER BOTTLE WE CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S 24?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
AGAIN, WITH THE PACKAGING THAT YOU PLACED IT
r 19
20
IN?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. THIS BOTTLE, DOES IT HAVE ANY INDICIA OF
FINGERPRINTS OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE THAT WERE LOOKED
r 23 FOR AFTER ON IT?
r 24 A. YES, I DID PROCESS THIS PARTICULAR BOTTLE FOR

25 POSSIBLE FINGERPRINTS AND POSSIBLE DNA.
r 26
27
Q.
THINGS?
HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT DOING BOTH OF THOSE
r 28 A. FOR AN ITEM SUCH AS THIS, IT'S A GLASS OBJECT,
r
~
l
,
J
753
1
2
THE FIRST THING I'M GOING TO DO IS A VISUAL EXAMINATION
OF THE BOTTLE TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY VISIBLE PRINTS ON
, )
3 THE BOTTLE. A LOT OF TIMES IF WE LEAVE GREASY RESIDUES ~
4
5
OR STICKY ITEMS THAT CAN ADHERE, WE CAN SEE VISIBLE
PRINTS.
, J
J
6 IN THIS CASE I DID NOT, SO I FOLLOWED IT UP
~
7 WITH OUR SUPER GLUE PROCESSING. IN THIS CASE WE HAVE A I
I
8 CHAMBER THAT WE PUT LIQUID GLUE IN, THE GLUE GETS

~
,
i
9 HEATED, THE CHAMBER IS HUMIDIFIED SO THE LIQUID VAPORS J
10 MIX WITH THE HUMIDIFIED WATER AND WILL FORM A WHITE

11
12
13
CRYSTALLINE SUBSTANCE THAT WILL ADHERE TO POSSIBLE
FINGERPRINTS.
I'LL HAVE TO REFER TO MY LAB REPORT TO SEE WHAT
, J
14 MY RESULTS WERE OR DO YOU WANT TO GET INTO THAT NOW? l

15 Q. IF YOU COULD.
16 A. OKAY. SO AT THIS POINT, AFTER THE SUPER GLUE l J
17 PROCESSING, I WAS STILL NEGATIVE FOR FINGERPRINTS. I ~

18 HAD NO VISIBLE PRINTS AT THIS TIME. I THEN FOLLOWED IT J
19 UP WITH TWO POWDER TECHNIQUES, A REGULAR BLACK POWDER i
J
20 AND A BLACK MAGNETIC POWDER. SOMETIMES YOU GET RESULTS
21 WITH ONE AND NOT THE OTHER. l
22 IN THIS CASE I GOT NEGATIVE RESULTS WHEN I WAS
23 DONE WITH THE PROCESSING. l
24 Q. IN TERMS OF THE DNA, WAS THIS BOTTLE ALSO
25 SWABBED FOR DNA? l
26 A. THIS WAS NOT SWABBED FOR DNA.
27 Q. IN TERMS OF BOTTLE NO. 8, WAS THAT SWABBED FOR
l
l
,
28 DNA?
i
r 754
r
1 A. NO. I DON'T BELIEVE I SWABBED ANY ITEMS FOR
r 2 DNA IN THIS CASE.
~ 3 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF SWABS WERE TAKEN AT A LATER
{
4 TIME?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I DON'T.
USING THIS BOTTLE AS AN EXAMPLE, SEEING THAT 8
r 7
8
WAS DAMAGED, WAS 8 IN THE SAME CONDITION AS THIS BOTTLE
WHEN YOU DID THOSE PROCEDURES UPON IT?
r 9 A. YES. I WOULD HAVE DONE THESE SAME PROCEDURES
10 AND TECHNIQUES ON THAT PARTICULAR BOTTLE, AND I BELIEVE
r 11 I DID NOT GET ANY PRINTS ON THAT BOTTLE EITHER.
r 12
13
Q. WHEN A BOTTLE OR AN OBJECT IS SWABBED, IS THAT
SWAB PUT INTO EVIDENCE UNDER A TAG?
r 14
15
A. YES. IF I WERE TO HAVE SWABBED THIS PARTICULAR
ITEM, I WOULD HAVE GIVEN IT A DESIGNATED SWAB NUMBER.
r 16
17
WHEN WE SWAB OUR ITEMS OF EVIDENCE, WE USE LETTERS THAT
DIFFERENTIATE OUR UNIT FROM ANOTHER UNIT. WE'RE THE
r 18 CRIME SCENE UNIT, SO WE USE CS AS OUR LETTERS IN FRONT
r 19
20
OF OUR SWAB NUMBERS.
THIS IS ITEM NO. 9 THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON
r 21
22
HERE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CS9 AND THEN A DASH 1, BEING
ONE SWAB OR THE FIRST SWAB COLLECTED FROM THAT ITEM.
r 23 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD THE DESIGNATION FS BEING USED

24 FOR SWABS AS WELL?
r 25 A. YES. FS WOULD BE FORENSIC SPECIALIST. WE HAD
26 A NAME CHANGE A FEW YEARS AGO, SO SOME EVIDENCE IS FS,
r 27 SOME IS CS.
r 28 Q. SO IF ITEMS WERE PUT INTO EVIDENCE UNDER FS9,
r
755
i J
1 WOULD THAT INDICATE A SWAB OF ITEM NO. 9?

2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN DONE BY YOU IN THIS CASE?
4 A. YES. I NEED TO CLARIFY.
5 Q. IF IT WOULD HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION ""l}
j
6 TO LOOK AT YOUR REPORT --

A. YES. UNFORTUNATELY, THE NOTE PAGE I WAS
,
,
7 i
j
8 LOOKING AT DID NOT HAVE MY SWABS ON IT, BUT THEY ARE IN

9 MY REPORT. I DID SWAB ALL THESE BOTTLES FOR POSSIBLE I
10 DNA.
11 Q. AND THIS WAS UNDER THE FS DESIGNATION? 1
,
12 A. AND THOSE WERE UNDER THE FS DESIGNATION. THANK
13 YOU.
l
14 Q. SO IT WOULD BE FS8, FS9, FS10, FS12 AND FS15?
j
15 A. YES, WITH A LETTER A AFTER EACH ONE. SO FS8-A,

16 9-A, ET CETERA. l
17 Q. THANK YOU. THIS ISN'T THE ONLY CASE YOU
18 WORKED, CORRECT? l
19 A. NO.
20 Q. AND THIS WAS OVER TWO YEARS AGO.
l
21
22
A. YES, IT WAS.
l
23 NO. 10 AND BEER BOTTLE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 25. l
26 WE'RE SHOWN IN THIS ITEM A BEER BOTTLE WITH
27 PLACARD NO. 10? l
28 A. YES.
l
, J
r 756
r
r 1
2
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 161, BEER BOTTLE, WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.}
r 3
4
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S
r 5
6
EXHIBIT 161, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE SAME ITEM?
A. YES, IT DOES.
r
\
7 Q. AGAIN, WITH THE PACKAGING THAT IT WAS
8 ORIGINALLY PLACED IN?
r 9 A. CORRECT.
r 10
11
Q. AND THE SAME PROCEDURES FOR BOTH FINGERPRINTS
AND DNA WERE DONE ON THIS?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THAT IS CORRECT.
YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 9 AND 10 IN
r 14
15
THE PHOTOGRAPHS IS ONE WAS LYING DOWN AND THIS ONE IS
STANDING UP.
r 16 IS THAT HOW THE BOTTLE APPEARED WHEN YOU TOOK A
r 17
18
PICTURE OF IT?
A. YES, IT DID.
Q.
r 19
20
SO, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT PUTTING IT BACK UP TO SEE
IF IT'S BUDWEISER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
r 21
22
A. NO. ALL MY PHOTOS ARE TAKEN AS IS.
r 23 NO. 11, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.}
r 24
25
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. 26 IS PLACARD NO. 11?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THIS WOULD BE UNDER THE FRONT TIRE OF THE
r 28 MAXIMA?
r
757
i j
1 A. CORRECT. ~
,
J
)
3 NO. 12 AND BEER CAN, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
4
5
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 27 IS ITEM NO. 12?
, )
6 A. YES.
7 Q. THIS WOULD BE THE BEER CAN THAT WAS UNDERNEATH l
8 THE REAR TIRE OF THE MAXIMA?
~ I
I
9 A. YES.
10 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 142, BEER CAN, WAS MARKED
11 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
12
13
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 142,
l
14 DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THAT ITEM IN THE PHOTOGRAPH AS
l
15 WELL AS THE PACKAGING?
16 A. YES, IT IS. l
17 Q. DOES IT ALSO APPEAR TO HAVE THE SAME PROCEDURES
18 DONE TO IT IN TERMS OF FINGERPRINTING? l
19 A. YES.
20 THE CLERK: WHAT'S IN THERE?
l
21
22
MR. TROCHA: IT'S A BUDWEISER BEER CAN AS WELL
AS A BROWN PAPER BAG WITH THE LABEL ITEM 12 ON IT.
l
23 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. l
25 NO. 13 AND BEER CAN, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 28.
l
28 THIS APPEARS TO BE PLACARD 13?
l
1
758
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IT'S ANOTHER BUDWEISER BEER CAN?
3 A. IT IS.
5 NO. 14 AND VOMIT, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
7 Q. PEOPLE'S 29 IS PLACARD NO. 14?
8 A. YES, IT IS.
9 Q. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT IN PLACARD 14?
10 A. WE ARE UNFORTUNATELY LOOKING AT APPARENT VOMIT.
11 Q. HOW IS THIS COLLECTED?
12 A. THIS IS COLLECTED BY SCOOPING A SAMPLE INTO A
13 GLASS JAR FOR PRESERVATION.
14 Q. AND THEN THE LAB DETERMINES WHAT IT IS?
15 A. YES.
17 NO. 15 AND BEER CAN, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. PEOPLE'S 30 DEPICTS PLACARD NO. 15, CORRECT?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. WHAT IS PLACARD 15 REPRESENTING?
22 A. A BUDWEISER BEER CAN.
23 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 206, BEER CAN, WAS MARKED
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 266 -- I'M SORRY -- 206,
27 IT'S A PLASTIC BAG WITH A BEER CAN AND A PAPER BAG
~
28 INSIDE, CORRECT?
l
759
,
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE SAME OBJECT AS IN
3 PEOPLE'S 30?
4 A. IT IS.
5 Q. IN A CASE LIKE THIS WHERE YOU HAVE MULTIPLE
6 CANS AND MULTIPLE BOTTLES, WHY DON'T YOU USE ONE PLACARD
l
7
9
FOR A BUNCH OF CANS IN THE SAME PLACE?
IF I
A. THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY IN QUITE THE SAME PLACE.
IF WE GO BACK TO ITEM NO. 8 WHERE WE HAD THE
, j
10 BEER BOX, THE BOTTLE AND THE SNACK PACKAGE THAT WAS ON ~
J
J
11 IT, THOSE ARE CONSIDERED TOGETHER SO THEY WERE COLLECTED
12
13
TOGETHER.
IF THEY'RE SEPARATED BY A DISTANCE, WE COLLECT
l
14 THEM SEPARATELY TO PRESERVE THE POSSIBLE DNA THAT COULD 1 J
15 CROSS-CONTAMINATE.
16 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 31, PHOTOGRAPH OF RESIDENCE l
17 ON FRANKLIN, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
18 BY MR. TROCHA: l
19 Q. THANK YOU. PEOPLE'S 31, THIS IS A RESIDENCE ON
20 FRANKLIN, CORRECT?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
IF WE ARE LOOKING OVER AT PEOPLE'S 241, WHERE
l
23 IS THE RESIDENCE IN TERMS OF FRANKLIN ITSELF? 1
24 A. IF YOU NOTICE THE YELLOW SQUARE ON THE RIGHT
25 SIDE OF THE DIAGRAM ABOUT HALFWAY DOWN THAT'S GOT l
26 WRITING INSIDE OF IT, JUST ABOVE THAT IS GOING TO BE THE
27 RESIDENCE NEAR THE CORNER OF THE STREET. l
28 THE COURT: MA'AM, COULD I GET YOU TO POINT IT
l
l
r 760
r
r 1
2
OUT FOR ME, PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: YES.
3 THE COURT: AND PLEASE TRY TO STAND OUT OF THE
[
4 WAY SO THAT THE JURORS CAN SEE IT. THEY NEED TO SEE IT
[ 5 EVEN MORE THAN I DO.

6 THE WITNESS: WE ARE LOOKING AT THE RESIDENCE
r 7 TOWARDS THE CORNER OF THE STREET.
r 8
9
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
FOR THE RECORD, MS. SANDERS
r 10
11
POINTED TO SAID RESIDENCE ALSO WHERE THE NO. 16 AND 17
IN RED ARE ON THAT DIAGRAM.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SO REFLECT.
r 14
15
Q. IS THIS A GATE THAT LEADS INTO THE RESIDENCE
FROM FRANKLIN?
r 16 A. YES.
r 17
18
Q. TO THE LEFT OF THAT GATE, WE CAN SEE THE
NEIGHBOR'S VACANT LOT, IF YOU WILL.
r 19
20
A. I BELIEVE SO, YES.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 32, PHOTOGRAPH OF OPENING
[ 21 OF GATE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

22 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 23 Q. PEOPLE'S 32 IS THE OPENING OF THAT GATE LOOKING

IN?
r
24
25 A. CORRECT.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
THIS WOULD BE LOOKING WEST, CORRECT?
YES.
r 28 Ill
r
,
761
, J
1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT ]3, PHOTOGRAPH OF GATE, WAS ,

2
3
BY MR. TROCHA: , J
4
5
6
Q. PEOPLE'S 33 IS NOW OPPOSITE OF THAT PHOTOGRAPH,
STANDING IN THAT DRIVEWAY, LOOKING EAST TOWARDS THE
GATE?
, J
8 Q. CAN WE SEE AN ITEM OF INTEREST IN THIS
9
10
PHOTOGRAPH WITH A PLACARD NEXT TO IT?
A. WE CAN. AND AT THIS POINT IT IS NOT A PLACARD. ,
11
12
13
AT THIS POINT I BELIEVE IT WAS MARKED BY AN OFFICER.
Q. I SEE. AND THAT WOULD BE THE BLACK OBJECT TO
THE LEFT WITH A YELLOW OBJECT NEXT TO IT?
,
14 A. CORRECT. 1
15 THE COURT: I'M SORRY, MA'AM. WHAT DIRECTION
16 ARE WE LOOKING AT IN PHOTO 33? l
17 THE WITNESS: WE ARE NOW LOOKING WEST FROM THE
18 HOUSE, FACING THE STREET. l
19 THE COURT: TOWARDS FRANKLIN STREET?
l
20
21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
CORRECT.
OKAY. THANK YOU. PHOTO OF GATE. ,
23 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. l
25 NO. 16 AND PLACARD NO. 17 AND GLOVES, WAS MARKED FOR l
26 IDENTIFICATION.)
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
l
,
28 Q. PEOPLE'S 34 IS A PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN INSIDE THIS
j
r
r 762
r 1
2
RESIDENCE'S YARD AND TWO PLACARDS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHAT PLACARDS CAN WE SEE?
WE CAN SEE PLACARD 16 IN THE FOREGROUND NEXT TO
r 5
6
THE BLACK OBJECT, WHICH IS A GLOVE, AND IN THE GRASSY
AREA BEHIND IT IS PLACARD NO. 17, WHICH YOU'LL SEE
r 7 SHORTLY HERE IS ALSO A GLOVE.

8 Q. ONE IS IN THE DIRT AND THE OTHER APPEARS TO BE
r
t 9 IN THE WEEDS?
~ 10 A. CORRECT.
r 11 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 35, PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD
r 12
13
NO. 16 AND GLOVE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 14
15
Q. PEOPLE'S 35 IS A CLOSE-UP OF PLACARD 16 AND THE
GLOVE, CORRECT?
r 16 A. YES.
r 17
18
Q.
A.
THIS ITEM WAS COLLECTED BY YOURSELF?
YES.
r 19
20
Q.
ITEMS?
IN A SIMILAR FASHION AS THE OTHER CLOTHING
r 21
22
A. YES.
r 23 NO. 17 AND GLOVE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 24
25
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 17 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE OTHER GLOVE --
r 26
27
OR, I'M SORRY -- PEOPLE'S 36 IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF PLACARD
17, THE OTHER GLOVE?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
, 1
763
l
1 Q. PEOPLE'S 37 IS A-- YOU TOOK PICTURES OF ,.,
2 SEVERAL VEHICLES IN THIS CASE, CORRECT?
A. YES. I'M ACTUALLY MISSING THE PHOTOS AFTER , i
J
,
3
j
4 THIS.
,
5 Q. WE'LL SKIP AHEAD.
1
6 A. OKAY.
7 Q. BUT IN TERMS OF THE VEHICLES THAT WERE PRESENT 1
8 AT THE SCENE, YOU WERE ASKED TO TAKE PICTURES OF

9 MULTIPLE VEHICLES; IS THAT CORRECT?
1 I
10 A. YES, I WAS.
11 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 67, PHOTOGRAPH OF INTERIOR
12 OF CAMRY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) ~
I
J
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. IS THE NEXT PICTURE YOU HAVE IN ORDER ITEM 67?
l
15 A. IT IS.
16 Q. LET'S GO TO ITEM 67 NOW. l
17 PEOPLE'S 67 IS THE INTERIOR OF ONE OF THESE
18 VEHICLES, CORRECT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. IS THIS THE INTERIOR OF THE TOYOTA CAMRY?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW FROM THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
DID YOU TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE INTERIORS OF
l
23 SEVERAL VEHICLES? l
24 A. YES, I DID.
25 Q. MAYBE TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION, I'M JUST l
26 GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE VERY FAR LEFT. WE
27 CAN SEE THE FRONT OF THE STEERING WHEEL, CORRECT?
l
28 A. YES.
l
l J
l
r 764
r 1
2
Q.
A.
DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE A TOYOTA EMBLEM TO YOU?
IT COULD BE.
r
I
3 Q. WOULD IT HELP REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IF YOU
4 WERE TO -- DID YOU COLLECT ITEMS FROM THESE VEHICLES?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
POSSIBLY.
WOULD IT HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO
r 7 LOOK AT YOUR REPORT TO SEE WHICH ITEMS WERE COLLECTED
8 FROM WHICH VEHICLES?

~
IL
9 A. IT WOULD. COULD YOU GIVE ME AN IDEA WHICH ITEM
r 10
11
NUMBERS I'M LOOKING FOR?
Q. SURE. WE'LL GET BACK TO THIS, MS. SANDERS.
r 12
13
LET'S MOVE ON AHEAD.
THE COURT: BEAR IN MIND THE CLERK HAS TO MAKE
r 14
15
AN IDENTIFYING SHORTHAND NOTATION FOR EACH OF THESE
EXHIBITS, SO LET US PACE OURSELVES ACCORDINGLY.
r 16 THE CLERK: I'M GOING JUST AS FAST AS HE IS, IF
r 17
18
NOT FASTER.
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SKIPPING AHEAD FROM THE VEHICLES FOR A MOMENT,
r 21
22
DID YOU ALSO HAVE TO ASSIST THE DETECTIVE AT THE MEDICAL
EXAMINER'S OFFICE?
r 23 A. I DID.
r 24
25
Q.
OFFICE?
WHAT IS YOUR ROLE AT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER'S
r 26
27
A. OUR ROLE THERE -- WE TREAT OUR VICTIMS AS AN
EXTENSION OF A CRIME SCENE. IN THIS CASE OUR VICTIM WAS
r 28 NOT AT OUR CRIME SCENE, SO THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE
r
1
765
l
1
2
SEEN OUR VICTIM.
WE GO TO THE MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE TO DO
, 1
3
4
THE SAME THING WE DO AT A CRIME SCENE. WE TAKE
PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE VICTIM, WE COLLECT ITEMS OF EVIDENCE,
l
5
6
ANY CLOTHING THAT THEY'RE WEARING.
CLOTHING, WE COLLECT IT.
IF THEY STILL HAVE
1
7 WE COLLECT STANDARDS. WE RECEIVE A BONE l
8 SAMPLE -- A RIB BONE SAMPLE FROM THE MEDICAL EXAMINER, A ,
9
10
11
SAMPLE OF THE VICTIM'S BLOOD. WE WILL COLLECT HEAD
HAIR, IF THEY HAVE ANY, FINGERNAIL SCRAPINGS.
WILL ALSO, IN THIS CASE, RECEIVE ANY BULLETS THAT WERE
AND WE ,
j
I
J
12
13
FOUND, RECOVERED FROM THE VICTIM'S BODY.
Q. WERE BULLETS RECOVERED FROM THE VICTIM'S BODY
l
14 IN THIS CASE? 1
15 A. YES, THERE WERE.
16 Q. HOW MANY? l
17 A. MAY I REFER TO MY REPORT?
18 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION? l
19
20
A. YES.
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
l
21 THE WITNESS: I RECEIVED FOUR.
l
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. IN TERMS OF THE LOCATION OF THE BULLETS, DID l
24 THE MEDICAL EXAMINER INFORM YOU OF THE LOCATION IN THE
25 BODY WHERE THE BULLETS CAME FROM? l
26 A. YES. THEY ACTUALLY WRITE IT ON THE CARD THAT'S
27 IN THE PHOTOGRAPH.
l
28 IN THIS CASE, EXHIBIT 92 WAS SHOWING A BULLET
l
l
[
r 766
r 1
2
RECOVERED FROM THE RIGHT AXILLA.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 92, PHOTOGRAPH OF BULLET
r 3
4
FROM RIGHT AXILLA, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 5
6
Q. SO WE'RE LOOKING NOW AT PEOPLE'S 92 AT THAT
BULLET WITH "RIGHT AXILLA" NOTATED UNDER IT?
r 7 A. CORRECT.
r 8
9
Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO 93.
THE CLERK: CAN I INTERRUPT FOR A MINUTE? WHAT
r 10
11
WAS 92?
MR. TROCHA: 92 WAS A PICTURE OF A BULLET FROM
r 12
13
THE RIGHT AXILLA, A-X-I-L-L-A.
r 14 FROM RIGHT THIGH, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 15
16
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 93 APPEARS TO BE ANOTHER BULLET FROM
r 17
18
WHAT IS NOTATED AS THE RIGHT THIGH.
A. CORRECT.
r 19
20
FROM LOWER BACK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 21 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 22
23
Q.
BACK.
PEOPLE'S 94 IS ANOTHER BULLET, NOTATED LOWER
r 24
25
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 26
27
FROM LEFT BUTTOCK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. PEOPLE'S 95 IS A FOURTH BULLET NOTATED AS THE
r
767
,
1
1
2
LEFT BUTTOCK.
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
, )
3 Q. GETTING BACK TO THE VEHICLES WE TALKED ABOUT

4 EARLIER, DID YOU COLLECT ANY CLOTHING IN RELATION TO
5
6
THOSE VEHICLES?
A. I BELIEVE I DID.
1
Q. WHICH ITEMS WOULD THOSE BE? 1
,
7
8 A. I RECOVERED A SHIRT, WHICH IS ITEM NO. 37, FROM

9
10
11
A GREEN NISSAN MAXIMA.
Q.
A.
WHAT COLOR WAS THAT SHIRT?
THE COLOR OF THE SHIRT, WHITE.
, 1
)
12
13
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 90, PHOTOGRAPH OF WHITE
T-SHIRT, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
14 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
15 Q. WE WILL START THEN WITH PEOPLE'S 90. DO YOU
l
16
17
18
HAVE PEOPLE'S 90 IN FRONT OF YOU?
A.
Q.
I DO NOT. I HAVE 67, 68, 69, AND 70.
I'M GOING TO HAND YOU 87 THROUGH 95.
,
j
19
20 A.
IF YOU COULD, SKIP AHEAD TO 90.
OKAY.
l
21
22
Q. THIS SHIRT WAS RECOVERED FROM WHAT IS MENTIONED
AS A NISSAN MAXIMA?
l
23 A. MAY I REFER TO MY COPY OF MY PHOTOGRAPH? 1
24 BECAUSE I BELIEVE I HAVE MY ITEM NUMBERS WRITTEN ON
25 THERE SO I CAN VERIFY. l
26 Q. PLEASE.
27 THE CLERK: MR. TROCHA, IS THIS EXHIBIT 90
l
28 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
l
, l
j
r 768
r
r 1
2 T-SHIRT.
MR. TROCHA: YES. EXHIBIT 90 IS A WHITE
r 3
4
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
PHOTO OF WHITE T-SHIRT.
THANK YOU.
r 5
6
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
YES, THIS IS ITEM 37.
r 7 Q. WE CAN SEE STAINING ON THE FRONT OF THIS
r 8
9
T-SHIRT IN PEOPLE'S 90, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
THIS IS LAID OUT ON AN OBJECT?
ON A PIECE OF BUTCHER PAPER.
r 12
13
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 91, PHOTOGRAPH OF BACK OF
WHITE T-SHIRT, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 14 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 15
16
Q.
A.
PEOPLE'S 91 IS THE REAR OF THAT SAME T-SHIRT?
YES, THE BACK SIDE.
r 17
18
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 152, WHITE T-SHIRT, WAS
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I'LL SHOW YOU NOW WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
r 21
22
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 152.
THE REAR OF IT.
YOU CAN SEE ITEM 37 WRITTEN ON
r 23 DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THAT T-SHIRT IN PEOPLE'S
r 24
25
90 AND 91?
A. IT DOES. IF YOU FLIP IT TO THE FRONT, YOU CAN
r 26
27
NOTICE THE TWO LARGER APPARENT BLOODSTAINS TOWARDS THE
BOTTOM. THOSE YOU CAN SEE VISIBLY IN THE PHOTOGRAPH ON
r 28 EXHIBIT NO. 90.
r
769
,
l
1
2
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU COLLECT ITEMS SUCH AS THESE, DO
YOU WRITE ON THESE T-SHIRTS?
,
3
4
A.
Q.
NO, I DON'T.
DO YOU TAKE PIECES FROM THEM OR CUT PIECES OFF?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER UNIT.
DID YOU COLLECT ANOTHER ITEM OF CLOTHING IN
1
7 RELATION TO THIS SAME VEHICLE? 1
8 A. NOT CLOTHING. I COLLECTED A SKATEBOARD.
l
9
10
Q.
A.
A SKATEBOARD?
YES. ,
11
12
13
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR.
YOU MAY. ,
14 Q. WITH THE VEHICLES THAT WERE IMPOUNDED, WERE YOU l
15 ASKED ALSO TO SEE IF YOU COULD RECOVER ANY LATENT
l
16
17
18
FINGERPRINTS?
A. I BELIEVE I WAS.
ANOTHER REPORT.
I WILL NEED TO REFER TO
,
19
20 VEHICLES.
YES, I WAS ASKED TO FINGERPRINT FOUR
l
l
,
21 Q. WHICH FOUR VEHICLES WERE THESE?
22 A. I PROCESSED A NISSAN MAXIMA WITH CALIFORNIA
23 LICENSE PLATE 6EUU065, A TOYOTA CAMRY WITH CALIFORNIA
24 LICENSE PLATE 5KVH671, A CHEVROLET EL CAMINO WITH
25 CALIFORNIA LICENSE PLATE 2K91084, AND A NISSAN SENTRA l
26 WITH CALIFORNIA LICENSE PLATE 5UXE659.
27 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO RECOVER ANY FINGERPRINTS OR
l
28 LATENT FINGERPRINTS FROM THOSE VEHICLES?
l
l
r 770
r 1 A. YES, I DID.
r 2 Q. HOW MANY FOR THE NISSAN MAXIMA?
r 3
4
A. I RECOVERED THREE LIFTS ON FOUR LATENT LIFT
CARDS ON THE NISSAN MAXIMA, MEANING ONE WAS TOO LARGE
rL 5 FOR ONE CARD.

6 Q. HOW MANY FROM THE TOYOTA CAMRY?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
FROM THE CAMRY, ONE LIFT.
HOW MANY FROM THE EL CAMINO?
r 9 A. ALSO ONE LIFT ON THE EL CAMINO.

10 Q. AND HOW MANY FROM THE NISSAN SENTRA?
r 11 A. AND TWO LIFTS ON THE NISSAN SENTRA.
r 12
13
Q. WHEN YOU'RE DOING THIS TYPE OF WORK, TAKING
LATENT FINGERPRINTS OR SWABBING THE BOTTLES AS YOU
r 14
15
DESCRIBED EARLIER, DO YOU ADDITIONALLY TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS
AND COMPILE A REPORT OF WHERE YOU SWABBED AND THINGS OF
r 16
17
THAT NATURE?
A. ON THE BOTTLES, YES.
r 18 Q. HOW ABOUT ON THE LATENT PRINTS OF THE CARS?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
ON THE CAR, NOT NECESSARILY.
WHY WOULD THAT BE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
IT'S NOT A STANDARD.
WHY DO YOU WANT TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS AND
r 23
24
DOCUMENT THE LOCATIONS SPECIFIC TO THE BOTTLES OR ANY
ITEM THAT YOU TAKE DNA FROM?
r 25 A. IT'S JUST TO HELP SHOW THE PERSON READING THE
r 26
27
REPORT OR SEEING THE PHOTOGRAPH WHERE WE COLLECTED AN
ITEM OF EVIDENCE FROM. AS FAR AS THE LATENT LIFT CARDS
r 28 FROM THE VEHICLES, WE ACTUALLY HAVE DIAGRAMS ON THE
r
771
,
~
.1
1 BACKS OF THE CARDS THAT SHOW THE SAME THING.
2 Q. AND IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT ALL OF THIS WAS 1
3 DONE IN THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER DETECTIVE.
l
4
5
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND ALL OF THESE ITEMS, SUCH AS THE LATENT , j
6 PRINT CARDS, THE BEER BOTTLES, THE DNA SWABS, WERE THESE
7 ALL FORWARDED TO OTHER PEOPLE WITHIN THE LABORATORY?
8 A. I BELIEVE SO.
9 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MS. SANDERS. l
10 NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY.
12

1
14
CROSS-EXAMINATION
1
16 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. SANDERS. l
18 Q. YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT YOU 1
19 ARE EXPERIENCED IN DNA COLLECTION.
20 A. CORRECT. l
21 Q. BUT THAT YOUR EXPERTISE -- THAT'S PRETTY MUCH
1
22
23
24
WHERE IT ENDS WITH DNA, RIGHT?
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
I ASSUME YOU'RE TRAINED ON THE PROPER METHODS
,
25 TO COLLECT DNA. l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. LET'S TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SHIRT THAT THE l
,
28 PROSECUTOR WAS SHOWING YOU, EXHIBIT, SAY, PEOPLE'S 152.
l
r 772
r
r 1
2
ON 152, YOU CAN SEE HERE THAT THERE ARE
MULTIPLE STAINS.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU SEE ONE STAIN HERE.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND BELOW THAT ANOTHER STAIN ON THE BOTTOM PART
r 7 OF THE SHIRT.
r 8
9
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
IN YOUR TRAINING, IF YOU WERE TO SWAB THAT, HOW
r 10
11
MANY SWABS WOULD THAT TAKE?
A. ACTUALLY, WE DON'T SWAB CLOTHING. THE FORENSIC
r 12
13
BIOLOGY UNIT WOULD DO THAT DIRECTLY, AND I DON'T KNOW
WHAT THEIR POLICY AND PRACTICE IS FOR THAT. WE SWAB
r 14 ITEMS THAT WE PROCESS FOR FINGERPRINTS.
r 15
16
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T SWAB ITEMS FOR BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE?
IF THEY'RE PART OF THE ITEMS WE'RE
r 17
18
FINGERPRINTING, WE CAN, YES.
Q. SO LIKE A BEER BOTTLE?
r 19
20
A. CORRECT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. TROCHA, CAN I SEE
r 21
22
EXHIBIT 4?
MR. TROCHA: YES. BEAR WITH ME.
[ 25 Q. MS. SANDERS, ON DIRECT YOU USED THE TERM "FALSE
r 26
27
LIGHTING," RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
r
1
1 A. IT'S NOT A TECHNICAL TERM, MEANING, IT'S A
773
,
2 LIGHT SOURCE THAT I HAVE INTRODUCED INTO THE PHOTOGRAPH 1
3 TO USE MYSELF.
1
4
5
Q.
A.
YOU TOOK THIS PHOTO, CORRECT?
I DID.
,
6
7
Q.
SPEED?
YOU TOOK IT WITH SOMETHING CALLED SLOW SHUTTER
,
J
8 A. YES.
9 Q. BUT YOU ALSO USED A FLASH? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. EXPLAIN AGAIN WHAT SLOW SHUTTER SPEED IS.
1
12
13
A. THAT WOULD BE THE TIMED EXPOSURE THAT WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT. IN ORDER TO TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH, THERE'S
1
14 TWO THINGS YOU NEED. YOU NEED TO CONTROL YOUR APERTURE, l
15 WHICH IS THE OPENING OF THE CAMERA, AND THAT CONTROLS
16 YOUR DEPTH OF FIELD, WHAT YOU CAN SEE IN FOCUS IN A l
17 PHOTOGRAPH.
18 SO IF YOU NEED TO SEE A LONG DISTANCE, IT'S A 1
19
20
LARGE DEPTH OF FIELD BUT A VERY SMALL APERTURE OPENING,
SO VERY, VERY SMALL OPENING ON YOUR APERTURE. BUT
l
21
22
CONTRARY TO THAT, IT'S ACTUALLY A LARGE NUMBER ON YOUR
CAMERA. SO AN F22 WOULD BE A LARGE APERTURE, YET IT'S A
l
23 VERY SMALL OPENING. 1
24 CONVERSELY TO THAT, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET
25 SOMETHING REAL NARROW, REAL SMALL, AND YOU DON'T NEED TO l
26 WORRY ABOUT YOUR DEPTH OF FIELD, YOU WOULD USE A SMALLER
27 F STOP, WHICH IS A LARGER APERTURE OPENING. SO THAT'S
l
28 ONE THING YOU NEED FOR YOUR CAMERA.
l
1
r 774
:r
1 THE OTHER IS HOW LONG YOU'RE LEAVING YOUR
r 2 SHUTTER OPEN TO INCORPORATE LIGHT. THE FASTER YOUR
r 3
4
SHUTTER OPENS AND CLOSES, VERY LITTLE LIGHT IS GETTING
IN THERE. THE LONGER YOU LEAVE IT OPEN, THE LONGER YOU
r 5
6
CAN ABSORB THE LIGHT SOURCE THAT'S COMING INTO YOUR
CAMERA. SO THOSE TWO WORK TOGETHER IN ORDER TO GET THE
r 7
8
PICTURE THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR.
Q. SO ESSENTIALLY WITH THE SLOW SHUTTER SPEED, THE
r 9 SHUTTER OF THE CAMERA IS OPEN FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF
10 TIME.
r 11 A. CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q. THAT ALLOWS THE LIGHT TO MAKE AN EXPOSURE ON
THE FILM FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND DO YOU SEE THE OBJECT IN EXHIBIT 4 KIND OF
r 16
17
LOOKS LIKE IT MIGHT BE THE SUN RISING?
r
A. YES.
18 Q. IT'S NOT THE SUN RISING.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO, IT IS NOT.
THAT'S A LIGHT IN THE PARK.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THE REASON THAT IT LOOKS LIKE THE SUN RISING --
r 23
24
DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH SLOW SHUTTER SPEED?
A. YES, IT DOES.
r 25 Q. PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT.
r 26
27
A. THE LONGER THAT SHUTTER IS OPEN, THE MORE LIGHT
IS ABSORBED ONTO YOUR FILM OR YOUR DIGITAL CAMERA. WHEN
r 28 THAT'S HAPPENING, YOU'RE JUST GETTING MORE AND MORE
r
775
l
1
1 CONCENTRATED LIGHT IF YOU HAVE A LIGHT SOURCE IN YOUR
2 PHOTOGRAPH. 1
3 SO WHAT STARTED OUT AS WHATEVER SIZE LIGHT BULB
4 WAS THERE, IT'S GETTING LARGER AND LARGER AND LARGER,
l
1
,
5 BECAUSE IT'S RADIATING THE LIGHT WAVES FROM THAT LIGHT.
6 AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SEEING ON YOUR EXPOSURE.
7 Q. SO IN REAL LIFE THAT NIGHT, THE LIGHT DIDN'T _I
8 LOOK LIKE THAT.

9 A. NO, IT DID NOT. l
10 Q. IT WAS MUCH DIMMER.
11 A. YES. l
12
13
Q.
PHOTO.
IT APPEARS TO BE EXTREMELY BRIGHT IN THIS
1
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
BUT THAT'S NOT AN ACCURATE DEPICTION.
l
16 A. NO, IT'S NOT. l
17 Q. ALSO IN THIS EXHIBIT, IT APPEARS AS THOUGH
18 MAYBE THE PARK RIGHT THERE IS LIT UP LIKE THERE'S A 1
19 LIGHT BEHIND YOU, RIGHT? WOULD YOU AGREE?
20 A. IT'S POSSIBLE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE ALL THE
l
21
22
LIGHTS WERE IN THE PARK.
Q. BUT I GUESS WHAT I'M GETTING AT, MS. SANDERS,
1
23 IS THAT THIS PICTURE DOES NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT THE 1
24 LIGHTING IN THE PARK.
25 A. NO, NOT AT ALL. l
26 Q. IT WAS MUCH DARKER THAN WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THIS
27 PICTURE. l
A. YES.
28
l
l
r 776
r
r 1
2 200?
Q. YOU TOOK HOW MANY PICTURES IN THIS CASE, ABOUT
r 3
4
A.
Q.
MORE THAN THAT.
YES.
MAY I REFER TO MY REPORT?
IF IT WOULD REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION,
r 5
6
PLEASE DO.
A.
WHEN YOU'RE DONE, LOOK UP AT ME.
I TOOK APPROXIMATELY 250 AT THE SCENE.
r 7
8
Q. AND THAT INCLUDED PICTURES OF ALL THE ITEMS ON
PROSECUTION'S 241? IT INCLUDES PHOTOS OF ALL THOSE
r 9 ITEMS?
~ 10 A. YES.
r 11 Q. A PHOTO OF WHERE THE ALLEY MEETS FRANKLIN --
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
-- ON THE NORTH?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
THAT PICTURE WE SAW OF THE HOUSE BY ITEM 16 AND
[ 16 17?
r
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. IT INCLUDES PICTURES OF ALL THE CARS THAT WERE
r 19
20
FOUND, INCLUDING THE NISSAN MAXIMA?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
THE TOYOTA CAMRY, RIGHT?
YES.
r 23 Q. THE CHEVY AND THE BLUE NISSAN?
r 24
25
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
PICTURES OF THE STREET AND DIFFERENT ANGLES OF
r 26
27
THE PARK AS WELL?
A. YES.
[ 28 Q. FOR ALL OF THOSE PICTURES, YOU USED SLOW
r
777
,
1
1 SHUTTER SPEED, RIGHT?
2 A. NOT ALL OF THEM. l

3 Q. MOST OF THEM?
l
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
THE ONES IN THE GENERAL PARK AREA, YES.
WHICH ONES DID NOT?

IF I'M TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS OF JUST THE FRONTS OF
,
7 RESIDENCES, I DON'T NEED QUITE AS MUCH LIGHT, BECAUSE l
8 I'M NOT -- I DON'T NEED TO PROJECT IT VERY FAR. THE
9 PARK, I NEEDED TO GET FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER IN MY l

10 EXPOSURE. A FRONT OF A HOUSE, I DON'T NEED MUCH, SO I
11 CAN JUST USE THE QUICK FLASH ON MY CAMERA TO GET THAT l

12 EXPOSURE.
1 l
13 Q. THANK YOU. SO OTHER THAN THE ONES OF THE
14
15
HOUSES, THE ONES OF THE PARK -- THOSE USED A SLOW
l
SHUTTER SPEED.
16 A. FOR THE MOST PART, YES. l
17 Q. AND SO THOSE PHOTOS, JUST LIKE EXHIBIT 4, DON'T
18 ACCURATELY REFLECT THE LIGHTING IN THE PARK. l

19 A. CORRECT.
20 Q. AND ON EXHIBIT 241, I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY

l
21
22
THIS, THE RED CIRCLES WITH NUMBERS IN IT, THAT'S NOT
WHERE THE ITEMS WERE FOUND, RIGHT?

l
23 A. NOT NECESSARILY. I BELIEVE SOME OF THEM HAVE 1
24 LITTLE LINES POINTING, IF I CAN SEE.
25 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ITEM 6, 7, 3, 4 AND 5 -- OR l
26 ACTUALLY IT WOULD BE MORE LOGICAL TO SAY 3, 4, 5, 6,
27 7 l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 778
r 1 Q. -- JUST SO THE JURY IS CLEAR, THESE RED CIRCLES
r 2 ARE NOT WHERE THE ITEMS WERE FOUND, RIGHT?

3 A. NO. IT'S ACTUALLY CLOSER IN.
l 4 Q. THEY'RE ALL FOUND IN THE AREA IN THE MIDDLE OF
r 5
6
THESE RED CIRCLES, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
c 7
8
Q. THERE'S LITTLE I GUESS WHAT WOULD BE HOLLOW
CIRCLES THAT WOULD MORE ACCURATELY DEPICT WHERE THEY
r 9 WERE FOUND.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THAT'S TRUE OF ALL THE EXHIBITS ON
r 12
13
PROSECUTION 241?
A. YES, IT IS.
r 14
15
Q. FOR EXAMPLE, ITEM 10 WASN'T FOUND WHERE THIS
RED CIRCLE IS, BUT AT THE -- WELL, IT WOULD BE RIGHT
r 16
17
NEXT TO THE BLUE NISSAN, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. ITEM 8, FOR EXAMPLE, IT APPEARS ON 241 THAT THE
r 19
20
RED CIRCLE NUMBER 8 IS NOT DIRECTLY UNDER THE TREES, BUT
ACTUALLY THE CASE OF BEER AND THE BEER WAS FOUND
r 21
22
DIRECTLY UNDER THE TREES AS INDICATED BY THE HOLLOW
CIRCLE ON THE EXHIBIT.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
DO YOU REMEMBER, MS. SANDERS, THAT -- AGAIN,
r 25 POINTING TO PROSECUTION 241, ITEMS 3, 4, 5, 6 AND 7,
r 26
27
THESE ITEMS HERE WERE FOUND ON THE SLOPE OF A HILL,
CORRECT?
r 28 A. I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY.
r
779
l
l
2 THE COURT: THANK YOU. REDIRECT? l
3 MR. TROCHA: JUST BRIEFLY ON THAT SUBJECT, YOUR
4 HONOR. l
5
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
7
8
Q. WE CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S 4 RIGHT BEHIND YOU
ITEMS 1 AND 2 IN THE FOREGROUND, CORRECT?
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. YOU CAN SEE AT THE TOP OF THE HILL THE
11 PLACARDS, 3 THROUGH 7; IS THAT CORRECT, MS. SANDERS? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. SO IN TERMS OF YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS AND IN TERMS OF
l
14
15
THIS DIAGRAM, WE CAN SEE THE SLOPE OF THE HILL.
A. THERE DOES APPEAR TO BE A LITTLE RISE IN THE
l
16 PHOTOGRAPH IN THE CENTER.
l
17 Q. IF WE MOVED INTO PEOPLE'S 5, THIS WOULD BE
18 THOSE OBJECTS, CORRECT? l
19 A. CORRECT.
20 Q. WE COULD SEE ALSO -- DOES THE PARK APPEAR TO l
21 EITHER FLATTEN OUT OR SLOPE BACK DOWN THAT WAY TOWARDS
22 THE PICNIC TABLES?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
IT APPEARS TO, YES.
SO WE CAN SEE THE BEND IN THE EARTH, IF YOU
l
25 WILL. l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND THIS WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE ALSO, IF WE MOVE l
28 ON TO 6, HOW THIS SLOPE RELATES TO LOOKING BACK AT ITEMS
1
1
[
780
[
1 1 AND 2, CORRECT?
[ 2 A. I CAN'T QUITE SEE WHERE 1 AND 2 ARE IN THAT
r 3
4
PHOTOGRAPH.
Q. THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT QUESTION.
[ 5 CAN YOU SEE PLACARDS 1 AND 2 IN PEOPLE'S 6?

6 A. NOT FROM THIS VIEW, NO.
[ 7 Q. PEOPLE'S 7, THOUGH, WE CAN NOW SEE PLACARDS 1
8 AND 2.
[ 9 A. YES.
10 Q. BECAUSE WE'VE MOVED TO THE CREST OF THAT HILL.
[ 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
HOW TALL ARE THESE PLACARDS?
I WOULD SAY SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 8 AND 12 INCHES.
r 14
15
I DON'T HAVE AN ACCURATE --
Q. BUT I MEAN YOU HAVE THE RULER IN THE OTHER
r 16 PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH SHOW US --
17 A. YES.
r 18 Q. -- THE SCALE, IF YOU WILL.
r 19
20
NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: RECROSS?
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING, YOUR HONOR.
MS. SANDERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
r 23 YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY

24 WITH ANY WITNESS, OTHER THAN INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL WE
[ 25 FINISH THE TRIAL. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
r 26
27
THE WITNESS:
MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
THE PEOPLE HAVE NO FURTHER
r 28 WITNESSES FOR THE DAY, YOUR HONOR.
r
1
781
l
1 THE COURT: IT'S BEEN AN INTENSE DAY, LADIES
2 AND GENTLEMEN. THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS, FOR YOUR CONTINUED 1
3 CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION AND YOUR GOOD HUMOR AND
l
4
5
6
PATIENCE.
CHAIRS.
THIS IS IMPORTANT WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING.
PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
ALLOW ME TO REMIND YOU THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT
,
7 TO CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON l
8 ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL, OR TO FORM OR
9 EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS FINALLY l
10 SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION.
11 WHAT I THINK I'LL DO IS INVITE YOU JURORS BACK 1
12
13
HERE AT 9:00 TOMORROW MORNING AND INVITE COUNSEL BACK
HERE AT 8:45 SO THAT IF WE HAVE ANY OF THESE LITTLE
l
14 THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED BEFORE WE BRING YOU IN,
l
15 HOPEFULLY WE WON'T KEEP YOU WAITING.
l
16
17
18
THANK YOU. LEAVE THE MATERIALS ON THE CHAIRS.
HAVE A SAFE TRIP HOME, AND WE'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW
MORNING. MS. SANDERS, THANK YOU.
,
l
21
22 TOMORROW?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BATTING ORDER FOR
l
23 MR. TROCHA: WE'RE GOING TO HAVE JOE HOWIE, l
24 ANGELICA NAVARRO FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. ALSO FROM
25 THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, LAB PERSONNEL MARY JANE FLOWERS, 1
26 TANYA DELANEY AND SHAWN MONTPETIT. SHAWN MONTPETIT
27 SHOULD TAKE THE BULK OF THE DAY, YOUR HONOR.
l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND MAYBE THE NEXT DAY TOO,
l
l
r 782
r 1 YOUR HONOR.
r 2 THE COURT: DID WE WANT TO TAKE MR. AGUILAR
r 3
4
TOMORROW?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE HIM
r 5
6
FIRST THING IN THE MORNING IF IT'S OKAY WITH THE
PROSECUTION.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THAT'S FINE.
WHY DON'T WE PLAN ON DOING THAT.
r 9 I'LL EXPLAIN THAT WE'RE TAKING A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER
r 10
11
INTERRUPTING THE CHRONOLOGY OF THE CASE.
DEFENSE WITNESS.
THIS IS A
r 12
13
NOW WHOM ELSE DO WE HAVE COMING TOMORROW?
HAVE MR. MATTHEWS, FOR WHOM THERE'S AN ORDER TO PRODUCE
WE
r 14
15
TOMORROW, AND LET'S GET HIM HERE SO THAT WE CAN ORDER
HIM BACK FOR WHATEVER DATE YOU WANTED. AND THEN
r 16
17
HOPEFULLY MR. MENDOZA AND MR. VELAZQUEZ -- DID WE TRY TO
CALL THEM OFF? THEY'RE OTP'S FOR TOMORROW.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK WE TOOK CARE OF
r 19
20
MENDOZA, BUT VELASQUEZ I DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY
INFORMATION ON.
r 21
22
THE CLERK: I TOOK CARE OF MENDOZA.
DID THE OTP FOR THE PERSON THAT'S IN JUVENILE.
I ALREADY
r 23
24
THE COURT:
TOMORROW AS WELL.
WELL, THEN VALEAQUEZ IS OTP'D FOR
r 25 SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE MULTIPLE BAILIFFS

26 IN THE COURTROOM, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU WANT
c 27 MR. MATTHEWS BROUGHT INTO THE COURTROOM AND ORDERED BACK
r 28 FOR THE NEW COURT DATE?
r
783
l
l
2 THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO DOING l
3 THAT WITHOUT YOUR CLIENT BEING PRESENT SUCH THAT IF
4 MR. MATTHEWS IS THERE IN THE TANK, DEPUTY TRAPP CAN
l
5
6
BRING HIM UP, WE'LL GET HIM ORDERED BACK AND --
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE NO OBJECTION.
l
l
,
7 THE COURT: IS THAT ACCEPTABLE?
8 THE DEFENDANT: THAT'S FINE WITH ME.
9 THE COURT: THEN WE HAVE -- MR. VELAZQUEZ HAS J
10 BEEN ORDERED PRODUCED FOR TOMORROW. IS HE THE GENTLEMAN

11 IN DONOVAN? l
13 THE CLERK: I DIDN'T DO AN OTP ON HIM BECAUSE
l
14
15
HE DOESN'T HAVE THE INFORMATION FOR HIM.
GOING TO BE HERE ANYHOW.
HE SAYS HE'S
HE DOESN'T HAVE A BIRTH DATE
l
16 FOR ME. HE SAYS HE ALREADY HAS AN OTP FOR TOMORROW. l
17 MR. TROCHA: MY SUGGESTION WOULD BE, ONLY FROM
18 EXPERIENCE, IF WE HAVE A CDC INMATE, IT MIGHT BE BETTER l
19 TO KEEP HIM HERE AND SHARE HIS CUSTODY AS OPPOSED TO
20 TRYING TO DO ANOTHER OTP ON HIM. l
21
22
THE COURT: I TOTALLY AGREE.
AN OTP TO GET HIM HERE TOMORROW.
BUT WE'RE TALKING
HE MUST HAVE BEEN
l
23 ORDERED TO BE HERE TOMORROW.
l
24 MR. TROCHA: RIGHT.
25 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI AND MR. DOMINGUEZ, l
26 ANY OBJECTION IF WE USE THE SAME APPROACH WITH RESPECT
27 TO MR. VELAZQUEZ; THAT IS, IF HE'S HERE, GET HIM UP HERE l
28 WITHOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ BEING PRESENT, SO THAT WE CAN GET
l
l
r
784
r
r 1
2
HIM ORDERED BACK AND A NEW OTP ISSUED?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO OBJECTION.
r 3
4
THE DEFENDANT:
THE COURT:
NONE AT ALL, YOUR HONOR.
THANK YOU.
r 5
6
DEPUTY TRAPP, TOMORROW MORNING I'M HAVING
COUNSEL HERE AT 8:15. LET'S SEE IF MR. MATTHEWS AND
r 7
8
MR. VELAZQUEZ ARE HERE AND GET THEM UP HERE FIRST SO
THAT WE CAN GET THEM ORDERED BACK FOR THE NEW COURT
r 9 DATES.
r 10
11
THE BAILIFF:
THE COURT:
COUNSEL HERE AT 8:15 OR 8:45?
I MISSPOKE. 8:45. AND THANK YOU,
r 12
13
LARRY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DO HAVE SEVERAL WITNESSES
r 14 COMING BACK WHO ARE ORDERED BACK. I JUST ASK THAT THEY
r 15
16
BE ORDERED BACK FOR THE 12TH. I TALKED TO MR. TROCHA,
AND THE 12TH IS ACTUALLY A DECENT ESTIMATE OF WHEN
r 17
18
THEY'LL BE NEEDED.
THE COURT: WE'LL DO THAT AS WELL TOMORROW
r 19
20
FIRST THING. WHY DON'T I ASK TOMORROW MORNING THAT YOU
GIVE ME, THE COURT REPORTER AND THE CLERK A TIGHT LIST
r 21
22
OF THEIR NAMES TO MAKE IT GO MORE EXPEDITIOUSLY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WILL DO.
r 24
25
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ONE LAST ISSUE, YOUR HONOR,
MY DNA EXPERT, DR. MILLER, HE IS IN ANOTHER TRIAL ON THE
[ 26
27
12TH, 13TH AND 14TH IN TEXAS.
BE HERE IS APRIL 18TH.
HIS EARLIEST DATE HE CAN
r 28 I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE, BUT
r
785
,
1
1
2
IN THE OFF CHANCE I'M DONE WITH MY CASE THE WEEK OF THE
11TH THROUGH 15TH, I'D ASK THAT I BE ABLE TO REST FOR
,
3 THE REST OF THE WEEK AND BRING HIM IN AS MY FINAL
l
4
5
6
WITNESS ON THE 18TH, UNLESS THERE IS A REBUTTAL.
WE COULD DO CLOSING THE FOLLOWING DAY, OR, IF NOT, THE
19TH.
THEN
,
7 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, ANY OBJECTION TO THAT? l
8 MR. TROCHA: NONE.
9 THE COURT: IF THINGS HAVE GONE AS SWIMMINGLY l
10 AS WE HOPED AND COUNSEL HAVE BEEN AS EXPEDITIOUS, IF IT
11 MEANS BEING OFF FOR A DAY OR TWO, WE'LL DEAL WITH IT.
l
12
13
WHY DON'T WE PLAN, BARRING A CHANGE IN DR. MILLER'S
AVAILABILITY, HIS TESTIFYING THE MORNING OF THE 18TH.
l
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. 1
15 THE COURT: THANK YOU, BOTH. SEE YOU TOMORROW
16 MORNING AT 8:45, NOT 8:15. 1
17 THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
19 TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2011, AT 8:45A.M.)
20 Ill
l
21
22
Ill
Ill
l
23 Ill 1
24 Ill
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill 1
28 Ill
1
1
r
r
. ss


PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER ON MONDAY,
r APRIL 4, 2011.
r
r
r SIINO
6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r FOURTH APPELLATE DISTRICT
r DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
)
)
r
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. D060019
r vs.
)
)
)
)
SUPERIOR COURT
NO. SCD230596
r DEFENDANT AND
APPELLANT.
)
)
) TRIAL
r
r
VOLUME 9
r APRIL 5, 2011
r APPEARANCES :
r FOR THE PLAINTIFF

AND RESPONDENT:
KAMALA D. BARRIS
ATTORNEY GENERAL
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r
AND APPELLANT:
r
r
r
r
r DEPARTMENT 48 HON . CHARLES G . ROGERS , JUDGE

)
r OF CALIFORNIA,
PLAINTIFF,
)
)
)
)
D.A. NO. ACVSOO
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________
DEFENDANT. ) )
r APRIL 5, 2011
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r
r RAUL AGUILAR
WITNESSES
PAGE

806
839

849
857
r MARY JANE FLOWERS

860
877
r ANGELICA NAVARRO-MORAN

883
898

906
909
r SHAWN MONTPETIT
r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 910
r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
r
PEOPLE'S 242 SIX-PACK LINEUP 807
PEOPLE'S 209 ENVELOPE CONTAINING BULLET 871
r PEOPLE'S 210
PEOPLE'S 211
871
871
r PEOPLE'S 212
PEOPLE'S 151
GRAY SWEATSHIRT
872
940
r PEOPLE'S 243 PAGES FROM ANALYTICAL RECORD 954
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r 786
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2011; 8:47 AM
r 2
r
r 5
6
THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST
r 7
8
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. MR. DOMINGUEZ IS NOT PRESENT, AS
WE DISCUSSED YESTERDAY AT THE END OF THE DAY. THE
r 9
10
DISTRICT ATTORNEY IS NOT PRESENT.
PRESENT IS MR. MATTHEW SPEREDELOZZI. I ALSO
r 11 UNDERSTAND THAT PRESENT ARE TWO OF THE WITNESSES WHO
r 12
13
NEED TO BE ORDERED BACK.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHOM DO WE HAVE AND WHERE ARE
r 14
15
WE, PLEASE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE HAVE IN THE COURTROOM
r 16
17
RIGHT NOW ANTRIEL MATTHEWS, IS THE GENTLEMEN STANDING
CLOSEST TO ME.
r 18 THE COURT:
THE COURT:
MR. MATTHEWS, GOOD MORNING.
AND MARCO VELAZQUEZ, WHO IS
19
r 20 STANDING FURTHER AWAY FROM ME.
21 THE COURT: MR. VELAZQUEZ, GOOD MORNING TO YOU
r 22 TOO.
r 23
24
MR. VELAZQUEZ:
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING, SIR.
NOW, WHAT DATE DID YOU NEED THEM
r 25 ORDERED BACK?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APRIL 12TH, YOUR HONOR.
r 26
27 THE COURT: MR. MATTHEWS, I DON'T WANT TO ASK
r 28 YOU ANYTHING ABOUT THE FACTS INVOLVING YOUR CASE, BUT
r
787
l
l
1 CAN YOU TELL ME HOW LONG YOU THINK YOU'RE IN FOR RIGHT
2 NOW? l
3 MR. MATTHEWS: UNTIL THE 25TH.
4 THE COURT: UNTIL THE 25TH OF APRIL? l
5 MR. MATTHEWS: YEAH.
6 THE COURT: AND THEY TOLD YOU THAT WILL BE YOUR
l
7
8
RELEASE DATE?
MR. MATTHEWS: YEAH.
l
9 THE COURT: SO I WON'T BE INTERFERING WITH YOUR l
10 RELEASE DATE, I'M GOING TO ORDER YOU PRODUCED IN THIS
11 COURT ON APRIL 12, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. IF YOU GOT l
12 RELEASED EARLY, I'M ORDERING YOU TO APPEAR IN THIS
13 COURTROOM VOLUNTARILY ON APRIL 12, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. l
14
15
MR. MATTHEWS: YES.
l
16 THE COURT: IF FOR SOME REASON THEY GIVE YOU AN
l
17 EARLY KICK, MORE POWER TO YOU, STAY OUT OF TROUBLE, AND
18 WE'LL ORDER YOU BACK HERE ON THAT DATE. l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I SUBPOENAED HIM AS WELL.
20 THE COURT: WE HAD A SUBPOENA FROM THE DEFENSE l
21 COUNSEL. THANK YOU FOR THAT, MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
22 AND, MR. MATTHEWS, JUST SO MAN-TO-MAN, SO ALL
l
23
24
CARDS ARE ON THE TABLE, IF YOU WERE RELEASED EARLY AND
YOU DIDN'T COME BACK TO COURT, I WOULD ISSUE A WARRANT
l
25 FOR YOU AND YOU WOULD BE BACK IN CUSTODY UNTIL THIS CASE l
26 IS OVER. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
27 MR. MATTHEWS: YES, SIR. l
28 THE COURT: FAIR ENOUGH. THANK YOU.
l
l
r 788
r 1 AND WITH RESPECT TO MR. VELAZQUEZ, SIR, AGAIN,
r 2 I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE FACTS OF YOUR
r
3 CASE, BUT HOW LONG ARE YOU IN FOR?
4 MR. VELAZQUEZ: I GOT A SIX YEAR PRISON TERM.
r 5
6 PRISON?
THE COURT: SO YOU'RE PRODUCED DOWN HERE FROM
r 7
8
MR. VELAZQUEZ:
THE COURT:
YES.
THANK YOU. I'M GOING TO ORDER HIM
r 9
10
KEPT IN LOCAL CUSTODY AND PRODUCED IN THIS COURT APRIL
12, 2011, 9:00 A.M. OBVIOUSLY YOU WON'T BOTH TESTIFY AT
r 11 9:00, BUT SOMETIME THAT DAY, AND THEN WE'LL GET YOU ON
12 THE WITNESS STAND AND GET YOU OUT OF HERE.
r 13 ANYTHING FURTHER, MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO, YOUR HONOR.
ALL RIGHT. MY THANKS TO THE
r 16
17
BAILIFFS.
FOR RIGHT NOW.
THAT WILL BE THE ORDER. WE'LL BE IN RECESS
r 18 (BRIEF RECESS TAKEN.)

19 THE COURT: THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
r 20 CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ.
r 21
22
MR. DOMINGUEZ IS NOT YET PRESENT. MR. TROCHA IS PRESENT
ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE; MR. SPEREDELOZZI ON BEHALF OF
r 23
24
THE DEFENSE. DETECTIVE LAMBERT AS THE INVESTIGATING
OFFICER FOR THE PEOPLE IS LIKEWISE PRESENT.
r 25
26
WE ARE CONVENED AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT TO
ORDER A DEFENSE WITNESS BACK. NO JURORS ARE PRESENT IN
r 27 THE COURTROOM. THE WITNESS, PLEASE?
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. CARLOS ALVARA.
r
r
789
1
l
1 THE COURT: AND THE DATE WE SUGGESTED IS APRIL
2 12TH? l
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APRIL 12TH, A WEEK FROM
4 TODAY. l
5 THE COURT: YOU ARE CARLOS ALVARA?
6 MR. ALVARA: YES, SIR.
l
7
8
THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, SIR.
GOING TO ORDER YOU TO RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM,
I'M
l
9 DEPARTMENT 48 OF SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT l
10 220 WEST BROADWAY IN THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO ON APRIL 12,
11 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. FOR YOUR TESTIMONY. l
12 IT'S LIKELY YOUR TESTIMONY WON'T START RIGHT AT
13 9:00, BUT SOMETIME ON THAT MORNING WE'LL GET YOU ON THE l
14
15
WITNESS STAND AND GET YOU OUT OF HERE.
ORDER.
THIS IS A COURT
IT MEANS IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP, WE'LL ISSUE A
l
16 WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
l
17 MR. ALVARA: YES.
18 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE l
19 ON APRIL 12TH. GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
21 (BRIEF RECESS TAKEN.)
22 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING AGAIN,
l
23
24
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL
PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS NOW
l
25 BEEN PRODUCED BY THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI IS PRESENT ON HIS BEHALF. MR. TROCHA
27 AND DETECTIVE LAMBERT ARE PRESENT ON BEHALF OF THE l
28 PEOPLE. NO JURORS ARE PRESENT.
l
l
r 790
r 1 DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS TO BE ORDERED BACK?
r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE A BUNCH OF THEM, YOUR
r
3 HONOR. DO YOU WANT ME TO GO GET THEM?
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
WHOM DO WE HAVE?
FIRST WE HAVE CARLOS RIOS.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
WHO IS NEXT?
MR. RIOS, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
r 9
10
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
PURPLE SHIRT.
WE HAVE EVELYN SOTO IN THE
r 11 THE COURT: MS. SOTO, THANK YOU GOOD MORNING.
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
BEHIND HER.
DIANA BANUELOS SITTING
r 14
15
THE COURT: GOOD MORNING.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE HAVE SIRIA FORD IN THE
r 16
17
GRAY SHIRT.
THE COURT: MS. FORD, GOOD MORNING.
r 18 MS. FORD: GOOD MORNING.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE HAVE CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ
IN THE BLUE AND WHITE STRIPED SHIRT.
r 21
22
THE COURT: I DON'T SEE HIM ON THE LIST.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE IS NOT ON THE LIST. HE
r 23
24
HAS NOT BEEN SUBPOENAED, BUT I'D ASK THAT HE IS ORDERED
BACK FOR THE 12TH.
r 25
26
THE COURT:
MR. MARTINEZ:
SIR, ARE YOU CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
YES, SIR.
r 27 THE COURT: WHEN IS YOUR BIRTHDAY, PLEASE?
r 28 MR. MARTINEZ: 10/18/88.
r
791
1
l
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NEXT TO HIM IN THE BLACK l
3 SHIRT IS RONALD MARTINEZ.
4 THE COURT: MR. MARTINEZ, GOOD MORNING. l
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AT THE END IN THE BLUE AND
6 WHITE STRIPED COAT IS CAROL MARTINEZ.
l
7
8
THE COURT:
MS. MARTINEZ.
THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING,
l
9 THE COURT: APRIL THE 12TH. l
11 THE COURT: FOLKS, I'M GOING TO ORDER EACH OF l
12 YOU TO COME BACK TO THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE
13 SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY l
14
15
IN THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO, ON APRIL 12, 2011, AT 9:00
A.M. FOR YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE.
l
16 OBVIOUSLY YOU WON'T ALL BE TESTIFYING AT 9:00,
l
17 BUT WE'LL ARRANGE THE BATTING ORDER WHEN YOU GET HERE.
18 AND IT'S MY ANTICIPATION THAT EACH OF YOU WILL TESTIFY l
19 AT SOME TIME DURING THAT DAY.
20 IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU BE HERE. DOES l
21 EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THE ORDER? THANK YOU. I'M SEEING
22 ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES.
l
23
24
WHEN I SAY IT'S IMPORTANT YOU UNDERSTAND IT,
THAT'S FOR THIS REASON: THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CASE, AND
l
25 I'M GOING TO DO WHATEVER I HAVE TO DO TO GET WITNESSES l
26 FOR BOTH SIDES PRESENT IN COURT. IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP,
27 A WARRANT WILL BE ISSUED FOR YOUR ARREST. WE'VE ALREADY l
28 HAD ONE WITNESS HELD IN JAIL. WE HAVE THE POWER TO DO
l
l
r 792
r 1 THAT UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER.
r 2 I HOPE IT DOESN'T COME TO THAT. WE REALLY NEED
r 3
4
YOUR APPEARANCE HERE. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT, A WARRANT
WILL BE ISSUED AND YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. DOES EVERYBODY
r 5
6
UNDERSTAND?
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, FOLKS. WE'LL SEE YOU
r 7
8
BACK HERE APRIL 12, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. IN THIS
COURTROOM. THANK YOU ALL.
r 9
10
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOW, DO WE HAVE ANY WARRANTS TO BE
r 11 ISSUED?
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
BARNES AND EVELYN QUINTANILLA.
YES, YOUR HONOR. RANDY
r 14
15
THE COURT: YOU'VE CHECKED OUTSIDE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'VE CHECKED OUTSIDE.
r 16
17 COURTROOM?
THE COURT: IS RANDY BARNES PRESENT IN THE
NO RESPONSE.
r
L 18 IS EVELYN QUINTERO {SIC) PRESENT IN THE
r 19
20
COURTROOM? THERE IS NO RESPONSE. IT IS 9:30.
YOU HAVE SUBPOENAED THEM OR WERE THEY ORDERED
r 21
22
BACK FOR TODAY?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THEY WERE ORDERED BACK FOR
r 23
24
TODAY.
THE COURT: THE COURT TAKES NOTE OF THE FACT
r 25
26
THAT THEY WERE ORDERED TO BE IN THIS COURTROOM AT THIS
TIME TODAY. THEY HAVE NOT APPEARED. HAVE YOU HEARD
r 27 FROM EITHER OF THEM?
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR. BUT BOTH OF
r
793
l
l
1 THESE WITNESSES ARE WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER FRIENDLY
2 WITNESSES, SO I'D ASK THE WARRANTS BE HELD UNTIL THE l
3 12TH AND I'LL CONTACT THEM AND LET THEM KNOW.
4 THE COURT: BENCH WARRANT AND WARRANT OF l
5 ATTACHMENT WILL ISSUE AS TO EACH. NO BAIL. HOLD THE
6 WARRANTS TILL APRIL 12, 2011, 9:00 A.M. THIS DEPARTMENT.
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. AGUILAR IS HERE FOR
l
9 TESTIMONY AS WELL. l
10 THE BAILIFF: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. THE
11 JUVENILE IS HERE IN HOLDING. HOW SHOULD WE HANDLE THAT l
12 MATTER?
13 THE CLERK: I DID AN OTP FOR APRIL 12TH. l
14 THE COURT: OKAY. I THINK WE NEED TO GET HIM
15 BROUGHT IN HERE SO WE CAN ORDER HIM TO COME BACK IN CASE
l
16
17
HE IS RELEASED FROM THE JUVENILE HALL FACILITY BY APRIL
12TH. IF HE IS UNDER ONE OF THE BREAKING CYCLES TYPES
1
18 OF PROGRAMS, HE MAY BE COMMITTED TO THE CUSTODY OF THE 1
J
19 JUVENILE OFFICER FOR 180 OR 240 DAYS, BUT THEY

20 INTERNALLY ARE ALLOWED TO RELEASE THEM, AND IT'S LIKE A 1
21 PHASE TRAINING, AND SEE HOW THEY DO OUT IN SOCIETY. AND
22 I'D HATE TO HAVE HIM RELEASED WITH NO ORDER TO HAVE HIM
l
23
24
HERE.
CAN WE HAVE SOMEBODY BRING HIM UP?
1
25 THE BAILIFF: YES, YOUR HONOR. I'LL SEE HOW l
26 SOON IT CAN TAKE PLACE.
27 THE COURT: SHOULD WE SUGGEST THAT IT HAPPEN AT l
28 10:30? CAN WE CALENDAR IT FOR 10:30?
l
l
r 794
r 1 THE BAILIFF: I CAN SAY YES, YOUR HONOR, BUT I
r 2 KNOW THERE ARE FOUR ADDITIONAL JUVENILES SCHEDULED TO

3 COME INTO THE COURTHOUSE TODAY ALSO, SO I DON'T KNOW
r 4 WHAT SORT OF LOGISTIC PROBLEM THERE IS --
r 5
6
THE COURT: LET'S MAKE THE REQUEST FOR 10:30,
AND IF WE NEED TO ADJUST, WE WILL.
r 7
8
r 9 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND
r 10
11
GOOD MORNING. I HATE TO BEGIN WITH AN APOLOGY, BUT
PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES FOR THE DELAY. IT WAS, I
12 WILL SAY, OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF EVERYBODY HERE IN THIS
r 13 COURTROOM.
r 14
15
BUT WE'RE READY TO GET UNDERWAY NOW, AND WE
HAVE MADE GOOD USE OF THE TIME IN THE INTERIM. I
r 16
17
APOLOGIZE, HOWEVER, THAT YOU HAVE BEEN KEPT WAITING.
ASK THAT YOU NOT LET ANY SENSE OF MILD FRUSTRATION THAT
I
r 18 YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS INTERFERE WITH YOUR CONSCIENTIOUS
r 19
20
CONSIDERATION OF THIS CASE.
GOOD TO SEE EACH ONE OF YOU HERE. THE RECORD
21 WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS ARE PERSONALLY PRESENT IN
r 22 THE COURTROOM.
r 23
24
IT SOMETIMES HAPPENS IN TRIALS THAT WE VARY THE
ORDER OF WITNESSES FROM WHAT MIGHT BE THE MOST LOGICAL
r 25
26
CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. WE DO THIS SOMETIMES BECAUSE OF
WITNESS CONSIDERATIONS OR EMERGENCIES OR THINGS OF THAT
r 27 SORT.
r 28 WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW, AND, IN FACT,
r
795
l
l
1 WE'RE GOING TO PUT THE PROSECUTION CASE ON HOLD FOR A
2 MOMENT AND WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM A DEFENSE WITNESS. l
3 SO IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO JUST DRAW A LINE IN YOUR NOTES,
4 WE CALL IT TAKING A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER. l
5 WE'RE GOING TO HEAR TESTIMONY STARTING IN JUST
6 A COUPLE MINUTES, BUT IT WILL BE MR. SPEREDELOZZI
l
7
8
CALLING THE WITNESS, AND HE WILL BE CONDUCTING DIRECT
EXAMINATION, CROSS-EXAMINATION WILL BE DONE BY
l
9 MR. TROCHA, AND THEN WE'LL GET BACK TO THE PRESENTATION l
10 OF THE PEOPLE'S CASE.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI. l
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE
13 DEFENSE CALLS RAUL AGUILAR. l
14
15
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
YOU MAY.
l
l
17 TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH?
19 THE CLERK: PLEASE TAKE THE WITNESS STAND.
20 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU l
21 WOULD, PLEASE, SIR. GOOD MORNING.
l
23
24
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
THANK YOU.
l
26 THE WITNESS: RAUL AGUILAR, A-G-U-I-L-A-R.
27 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU l
28 MAY EXAMINE.
l
l
r 796
r 2 RAUL AGUILAR,
r 3
4
DEFENSE WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED
AS FOLLOWS:
r 5
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 7
8
Q.
A.
GOOD MORNING, MR. AGUILAR.
GOOD MORNING.
r 9 Q. LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY. YOU DON'T WANT
r 10
11
TO BE HERE TESTIFYING TODAY, DO YOU?
A. NO.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU WERE FORCED TO BE IN COURT TODAY.
YEAH.
r 14
15 I?
Q. I'M THE ONE WHO FORCED YOU TO COME IN, DIDN'T
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
BEFORE TODAY'S DATE, YOU WERE ARRESTED AND HELD
r 18 IN CUSTODY, WEREN'T YOU?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN YOU WERE RELEASED FROM CUSTODY ON A
r 21
22
PROMISE TO APPEAR TODAY, RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
r 23
24 HERE?
Q. AND, AGAIN, IF YOU HAD THE CHOICE, WOULD YOU BE
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU WOULD BE?
r 27 A. YEAH.
r 28 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
r
797
l
1
_J
1 I WANT TO TAKE YOU BACK TO THE NIGHT OF

2 SEPTEMBER 13, 2008. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT NIGHT? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT? l
5 A. WELL, I WAS -- EARLIER THAT DAY WE WERE HAVING
6 A CARNE ASADA.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHY DO YOU REMEMBER THAT NIGHT?
WHY DO I REMEMBER THAT NIGHT?
l
9 Q. YES. l
10 A. WELL, I GUESS MY FRIEND HAD DIED THAT NIGHT.
11 Q. YOUR FRIEND MOISES? l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. HOW CLOSE OF FRIENDS WERE YOU? l
14 A. WE'RE CLOSE.
15 Q. SO EARLIER IN THE DAY, MAYBE AROUND 4:00 OR
l
16
17
5:00, WHAT WAS GOING ON?
A. WE WERE HAVING A CARNE ASADA IN THE PARK.
l
18 Q. WHAT PARK? l
19 A. RIGHT THERE ON OCEAN VIEW.
20 Q. MR. AGUILAR, I'M GOING TO POINT YOUR ATTENTION l
21 TO PROSECUTOR'S 1.
22 CAN YOU SEE THAT DIAGRAM, MR. AGUILAR?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND STEPPING DOWN AND POINTING
l
25 OUT WHERE YOU WERE HAVING THIS CARNE ASADA -- l
26 THE COURT: JUST WALK RIGHT UP THERE TO THE
27 DIAGRAM, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR. l
28 THE WITNESS: OVER HERE.
l
l
r 798
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS
r 2 IS POINTING TO THE SOUTH PART OF THE PARK, RIGHT NEAR
r
3 THE GAZEBO THAT'S DEPICTED IN THE PARK.
4 THE COURT: COULD JURORS ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE
r 5
6
OF THE BOX SEE THAT? NO? STEP TO THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE
AND POINT TO THAT AGAIN, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MR. AGUILAR.
YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT,
r 9
10
r
Q. THAT OBJECT ON THE DIAGRAM, IS THAT A GAZEBO?
11 A. YEAH.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SO, AGAIN, WHAT TIME WAS THIS ABOUT?
LIKE AT FOUR OR FIVE.
r 14
15
Q. DO YOU SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER THE TIME, OR IS
THAT AN ESTIMATE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THAT'S AN ESTIMATE.
WHO WAS WITH YOU AT THE CARNE ASADA?
r 18 A. MOISES, JOSUE, CAROL, JESSICA, AND SOME OF
r
19 CAROL'S COUSINS, I THINK.
20 Q. WHAT IS CAROL'S FULL NAME?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW HER FULL NAME.
DO YOU KNOW MOISES'S LAST NAME?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU KNOW JOSUE'S'S LAST NAME?
r 25 A.
Q.
NO.
YOUR NAME IS RAUL, RIGHT?
r
26
27 A. YEAH.
r 28 Q. WHAT ELSE DO YOU GO BY?
r
799
1
l
1 A. JUST RAUL.
2 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A GANG CALLED 38TH l
3 STREET?
4 A. YEAH. l
5 Q. ARE THEY ALSO CALLED SHELLTOWN?
6 A. YEAH, I THINK. YEAH.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WERE YOU A MEMBER OF THAT GANG?
NO.
l
9 Q. DID YOU GO BY THE NAME KNUCKLES? l
10 A. YEAH, I WENT BY THAT NAME, BUT --
11 Q. SOME PEOPLE FROM THE GANG CALLED YOU l
12 KNUCKLES?
13 A. NO. l
14
15
Q.
A.
SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS CALLED YOU KNUCKLES?
YEAH.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
DID JOSUE CALL YOU KNUCKLES?
NOT REALLY, BUT YEAH, SOMETIMES.
l
18 Q. SO, AGAIN, WHEN DID THE CARNE ASADA END? l
19 A. LIKE AROUND -- I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS
20 LIKE -- I DON'T REMEMBER. LIKE SIX, SEVEN. 1
,
21 Q. IN THE EVENING?
22 A. YEAH.
l
23 Q. SO YOU SAID CAROL WAS THERE, JOSUE, MOISES,
j
24 JESSICA AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE.

25 A. YEAH. l
26 Q. WAS SOMEBODY NAMED STALKER THERE?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU KNOW WHO FLORENCIO
l
l
r 800
r 1 DOMINGUEZ IS?
r 2 A. I SEEN HIM BEFORE.
r
3 Q. WAS HE AT THE CARNE ASADA?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6 END?
Q. AND WHEN THE CARNE ASADA ENDED, HOW DID IT
r 7
8
A. CAROL, JOSUE, JESSICA AND CAROL'S COUSINS, THEY
ALL PACKED EVERYTHING UP AND THEY TOOK EVERYTHING TO
r 9
10
THEIR HOUSE.
HOUSE.
THEY WERE TAKING THE STUFF BACK TO CAROL'S
r 11 Q. WHAT WAS THE PLAN AFTER THAT?
r 12
13
A.
THE PARK.
GO TO THE QUINCEANERA THAT WAS RIGHT THERE BY
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS THE QUINCEANERA GOING ON?
DOWN THAT WAY.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHEN YOU SAY --
DOWN THAT WAY ON THE RIGHT CORNER, ON THE RIGHT
r 18 TOP CORNER.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT'S THAT PLACE CALLED?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S CALLED, BUT IT'S RIGHT
r 21
22
THERE NEXT TO THE REC.
Q. HAVE YOU HEARD IT CALLED A NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT IT'S CALLED.
HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE REC CENTER?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THE REC CENTER AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE ARE
r 27 TWO DIFFERENT PLACES, RIGHT?
r 28 A. YEAH. THEY'RE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER.
r
801
l
l
1 Q. ON PROSECUTION 2, CAN YOU ACCURATELY POINT OUT
2 WHERE THE TWO OBJECTS ARE? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, MR. AGUILAR, STEPPING l
5 DOWN AND POINTING THOSE OUT --
6 A. THIS SIDE RIGHT HERE, THIS IS THE REC. AND
l
7
8
OVER HERE IS WHERE THE PARTY WAS AT.
Q. THE QUINCEANERA?
l
9 A. YEAH. l
10 Q. SO, FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO
11 THE TOP RIGHT OF PROSECUTION 2. IN A LITTLE BIT LEFT l
12 FROM THE CORNER, BUT AT THE TOP, IS THE REC CENTER, AND
13 I GUESS OFF THE EXHIBIT WOULD BE THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE. l
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THE QUINCEANERA WAS HAPPENING AT WHICH ONE
l
16
17
OF THOSE?
A. RIGHT THERE ON THE ONE ON THIS SIDE.
l
18 Q. OKAY. AND WHEN CAROL, JOSUE AND JESSICA AND l
19 THE COUSINS WENT BACK TO CAROL'S HOUSE, WHAT DID YOU DO?
20 AND YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT, MR. AGUILAR. l
21 A. I STAYED IN THE PARK WITH MOISES.
22 Q. WHY?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
BECAUSE WE WERE WAITING RIGHT THERE FOR THEM.
WHY DIDN'T YOU GO?
l
25 A. THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO COME BACK AND WE l
26 WERE GOING TO THE PARTY TOGETHER.
27 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU GO WITH THEM? l
28 A. I WAS JUST RIGHT THERE WAITING FOR THEM. IT
l
l
r 802
r 1 WAS TOO FULL, THE VAN, AND WE COULDN'T GET IN THERE.
r 2 Q.
A.
THERE WASN'T ENOUGH ROOM?
YEAH, THERE WASN'T ENOUGH ROOM.
r
3
4 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU WAITING FOR THEM?
r 5
6
A. LIKE, WE WERE WAITING A LONG TIME, LIKE, I
DON'T REMEMBER HOW LONG, BUT MOISES ENDED UP SAYING THAT
r 7
8
HE WAS GOING TO GO TO THE PARTY AND WAIT FOR US THERE.
Q. WHERE WERE YOU WAITING FOR THEM?
r 9
10
A. RIGHT THERE ON -- YOU SEE WHERE THE TENNIS
COURTS ARE AT?
r 11 Q. ON PROSECUTION 2, YOU'RE POINTING TO THE TENNIS
r 12
13
COURTS, RIGHT?
A. YEAH, LIKE RIGHT THERE WHERE THE BATHROOMS
r 14
15
ARE.
Q. AT WHAT POINT DID MOISES LEAVE?
r 16
17
A. I DON'T KNOW. WE WERE JUST RIGHT THERE,
WAITING FOR A WHILE, AND HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO WAIT
r 18 FOR US IN THE PARTY.
r 19 Q. MOISES TOLD YOU HE WAS GOING TO BE AT THE

20 QUINCEANERA?
r 21
22
A. YEAH. AND I TOLD HIM, "WELL, I'M GOING TO WAIT
RIGHT HERE FOR THEM AND TELL THEM YOU'RE OVER THERE."
r 23
24
Q.
A.
THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
THEN I WAS RIGHT THERE. I WAS WAITING FOR
r 25
26
PROBABLY LIKE 10 OR 20 MORE MINUTES, AND THAT'S WHEN I
DECIDED TO GO LOOK FOR THEM, GO TO CAROL'S HOUSE.
r 27 Q. WHEN YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY TO CAROL'S HOUSE,
r 28 WHAT HAPPENED?
r
803
l
l
1 A. WELL, I HEARD GUNSHOTS.
2 Q. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS? l
3 A. ON OCEAN VIEW, GOING TOWARDS PASQUAL.
4 Q. MR. AGUILAR, THIS STREET HERE IN THE MIDDLE OF l
PROSECUTION 2 ON THE TOP PHOTOGRAPH THAT CUTS THE PARK
5
6 IN HALF, THAT'S OCEAN VIEW, CORRECT?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH. YEAH, IT WAS LIKE DOWN THAT WAY.
WERE YOU OFF THE EXHIBIT?
1
9 A. PROBABLY. l
10 Q. SOMEWHERE IN THE TOP PORTION OF OCEAN VIEW OR
11 MAYBE PAST THAT? l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. AND WHERE WERE YOU WALKING TO? l
14
15
A.
Q.
TO CAROL'S HOUSE.
DID YOU EVER MAKE IT TO THE QUINCEANERA?
l
16 A. NO.
l
17 Q. AT ANY POINT IN TIME -- YOU SEE THAT OCEAN VIEW
18 PARK, IT'S CUT INTO TWO SEPARATE PARKS, RIGHT? l
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. WHAT WOULD BE TO THE LEFT ON THE TOP OF l
21 PROSECUTION 2 IS THE SMALL PARK, RIGHT?
22 A. YEAH.
l
23
24
Q. AT ANY TIME DURING THAT NIGHT, WERE YOU IN THAT
SMALL PARK?
l
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED GLENNYS BERUMEN?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW HER?
l
l
r 804
r 1 A. NO, I DON'T KNOW HER. I THINK SHE WAS GOING
r 2 OUT WITH ONE OF MY FRIENDS. THAT'S ALL I KNOW.
r
3 Q. WHICH FRIEND WAS SHE GOING OUT WITH?
4 A. ISMAEL.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
ISMAEL ACEVES?
YEAH.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHEN DID SHE DATE HIM?
I DON'T REMEMBER. LIKE A COUPLE MONTHS AGO.
r 9 Q. ARE THEY STILL DATING, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
r
10 A. I DON'T THINK SO.
11 Q. YOU WERE CLOSE WITH MOISES?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH, PRETTY MUCH.
AT THE TIME HE PASSED AWAY, WERE YOU AWARE OF
r 14
15
HIM DATING ANYBODY?
A. NO.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED ANDRES LOPEZ?
YEAH. I MET HIM LIKE A COUPLE MONTHS AFTER.
r 18 Q. COUPLE MONTHS AFTER THIS HAPPENED?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THIS BEING THE DEATH OF YOUR FRIEND?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DID HE SAY ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT -- DID HE SAY
r 23
24
ANYTHING TO YOU WHEN YOU MET HIM THAT YOU FOUND
INTERESTING?
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO MY INVESTIGATOR ON
THIS CASE, MR. MOLDONADO?
r 28 A. OH, YEAH.
r
805
l
l
1 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING MR. MOLDONADO THAT YOU
2 HAD A CONVERSATION WITH ANDRES LOPEZ? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. IF I SHOWED YOU A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT, WOULD l
5 THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHAT YOU SAID?
6 A. YEAH.
1
7
8
Q. MR. AGUILAR, IF YOU WOULD, JUST READ THE
HIGHLIGHTED PORTIONS OF THE STATEMENT, AND LOOK AT ME
l
9 WHEN YOU'RE DONE. l
10 MR. AGUILAR, DID THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION
11 AS TO WHAT YOU SAID TO MY INVESTIGATOR? l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. AND WHAT DID ANDRES TELL YOU WHEN YOU MET HIM? 1
14
15
A. WELL, WHEN I SEEN HIM THAT ONE DAY, HE -- I
GUESS A COUPLE DAYS AFTER HE HAD GOTTEN OUT OF JAIL, AND
l
16 HE WAS TELLING ME THAT HE WANTED TO SMOKE SOME WEED.
l
17 AND I TOLD HIM, "WELL, AREN'T YOU GOING TO GET LOCKED
18 UP?" BECAUSE I GUESS LIKE MOSTLY WHEN PEOPLE GET OUT OF l
19 JAIL, THEY'RE ON PROBATION AND STUFF.
20 SO I ASKED HIM THAT, AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE l
21 COPS JUST TOOK HIM OFF HIS PROBATION.
22 Q. HE TOLD YOU THE COPS HAD HELPED HIM OUT WITH
l
23
24
HIS PROBATION?
A. YEAH. HE TOLD ME SOMETHING LIKE THEY SAID THEY
l
25 JUST DROPPED HIS PROBATION, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. l
26 Q. OKAY. YOU STATED A COUPLE TIMES NOW,
27 MR. AGUILAR, THAT MOISES WAS A FRIEND OF YOURS. l
28 A. YEAH.
l
1
r 806
r 1 Q. OBVIOUS TO SAY THAT YOU'RE NOT HAPPY ABOUT WHAT

i 2 HAPPENED TO HIM, RIGHT?
r
[
3 A. NO.
4 Q. YOU DON'T THINK THIS SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO
i 5
6
HIM, CORRECT?
A. NO, I DON'T THINK.
r
!
7 Q. IF YOU COULD HELP MOISES, WOULD YOU?
8 A. YEAH.
r 10
11
r
l
12
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r
(
14
15
Q. MR. AGUILAR, WHO IS THE PERSON SITTING ON THE
RIGHT AT THE DEFENDANT'S TABLE?
r 16 A. JOSE.
r 17
18
Q.
A.
WHAT'S HIS NICKNAME?
SPEEDY.
19 Q. SO YOU RECOGNIZE HIM TODAY?

i 20 A. YEAH.
r 21
22
Q.
CORRECT?
AND YOU KNOW HIS NAME, HIS ACTUAL NAME,
r
I
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. AND YOU KNOW HIS NICKNAME.

r;1
I
I
25 A. YEAH.
rm 26 Q. WHAT HAPPENED THREE DAYS AFTER YOUR BEST

i
27 FRIEND'S DEATH WHEN YOU COULDN'T RECOGNIZE

rm
I 28 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S PHOTOGRAPH?
807
l
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS.
l
2
3
4
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
WHAT HAPPENED IN THREE DAYS? , i
5 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER BEING INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE

6 THREE DAYS AFTER YOUR FRIEND WAS MURDERED?
R!F1
7 A. THREE DAYS AFTER? YEAH. I
8 Q. ARE YOU SURE?

9 A. I THINK, YEAH.
10 Q. WELL, YOUR BEST FRIEND WAS KILLED, AND YOU TOLD
11 US THAT'S WHY YOU REMEMBERED IT WAS THE 13TH OF
12 SEPTEMBER OF 2008. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT? r:r!'lI
13 A. YEAH.
14 Q. SO WERE YOU INTERVIEWED THREE DAYS AFTER YOUR
15 BEST FRIEND WAS KILLED, BY THE POLICE?
~
!
16 A. PROBABLY THREE, FOUR DAYS. I DON'T REMEMBER. !
17 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THAT?

18 A. YEAH. BUT I KNOW I WAS INTERVIEWED.
19 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE POLICE SHOWED YOU SIX
20 PICTURES ON ONE PIECE OF PAPER AND ASKED IF YOU
21 RECOGNIZED ANYONE FROM THOSE SIX PICTURES?
22 A. YEAH.
23 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, IF I COULD GET THIS
24 MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 242.
25 THE COURT: YES. WE'LL MARK THIS AS PEOPLE'S
26 242, SIX-PACK.
27 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 242, SIX-PACK LINEUP, WAS
r 808
r 1 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 2 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT WILL BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S
r 3
4
242, DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THAT THREE DAYS AFTER YOUR
BEST FRIEND WAS KILLED?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I THINK, YEAH.
AND YOU COULDN'T RECOGNIZE ANYONE IN THOSE
r 7
8
PHOTOGRAPHS, COULD YOU?
A. NO.
9 Q. WHO'S NO. 4, MR. AGUILAR?
10 A. NOW I RECOGNIZE HIM.
r 11 Q. OH, NOW YOU DO?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHY IS IT NOW YOU CAN, BUT THREE DAYS AFTER
r 14
15
YOUR BEST FRIEND WAS KILLED YOU COULDN'T?
r 16
17
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW THIS GUY.
r 18 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 19
20
Q.
A.
HOW DO YOU KNOW HIM NOW?
COUPLE MONTHS AFTER THAT IS WHEN I MET HIM.
r 21
22
Q.
KILLED?
YOU NEVER MET HIM WHEN YOUR BEST FRIEND WAS
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
SO WHEN THE POLICE CAME AND REPEATEDLY TALKED
r 25 TO YOU IN THE LAST THREE YEARS BETWEEN THE MURDER AND
r 26
27
TODAY, DID YOU NOT MEET HIM DURING THAT TIME EITHER?
A. SAY THAT AGAIN.
28 Q. SURE. THAT ISN'T THE LAST TIME THE POLICE CAME
i
809
l
1 AND TALKED TO YOU, CORRECT? ...,
2
3
A.
Q.
YEAH, THEY CAME UP TO ME LIKE THREE TIMES.
AND ONE OF THOSE TIMES WAS ACTUALLY ABOUT SIX , I
6
MONTHS AGO, WAS IT NOT?
A.
Q.
PROBABLY, YES. NO. SIX MONTHS AGO?
PROBABLY LAST SUMMER, AROUND LAST SEPTEMBER.
, J
8 Q. AT THAT TIME YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO JOSE OR SPEEDY
9 WAS AT THAT TIME EITHER, DID YOU?
10 A. I DON'T REMEMBER THEM ASKING ABOUT HIM. OR,
11
12
WAIT.
Q.
YEAH, THEY ASKED ME.
AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS AT THAT TIME ,
13
14
EITHER.
A. WELL, NO, THEY NEVER TOLD ME JOSE. I DON'T
, J
15 REMEMBER.
16 Q. THEY MENTIONED THE NAME SPEEDY, DID THEY NOT? l
,
!
17 A. OH, YEAH, THEY DID.

18 Q. AND YOU TOLD THE POLICE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO j
19 THAT WAS, CORRECT?

20 A. YEAH. I STILL DIDN'T REMEMBER HIM, BECAUSE
21 THEY WERE JUST ASKING ME, LIKE, "DO YOU KNOW THIS
22 PERSON? THIS PERSON? THIS PERSON?" THEY ASKED ME A
23 BUNCH OF NAMES.
24 Q. SO WHEN DID YOU MEET MR. DOMINGUEZ?
25 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. A COUPLE MONTHS AFTER MY
26 FRIEND WAS KILLED.
I
!
27 Q. BUT YOU FORGOT ALL ABOUT HIM SIX MONTHS AGO?
28 A. WELL, YES. I WASN'T HANGING AROUND WITH HIM
r 810
r 1 EVERY DAY.
r 2 Q. BUT YOU COME INTO COURT AFTER NOT SEEING HIM
r 3
4
FOR, WHAT, SEVERAL YEARS, AND YOU CAN POINT HIM OUT AS
JOSE AND SPEEDY?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
PROBABLY A COUPLE MONTHS, YEAH.
BUT YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY RECOGNIZE HIM FROM A
r 7
8
PHOTOGRAPH.
A. NO.
r 9
10
Q. YOU TELL US TODAY YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER
EITHER; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 11 A. YEAH.
r 12
13
Q. HOW DID YOU GET THE NICKNAME KNUCKLES IF YOU
ARE NOT A GANG MEMBER?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
SOME FRIENDS GAVE ME THE NAME.
WHAT'S IT FOR?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
FOR FIGHTING.
DO YOU LIKE TO FIGHT?
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q. HOW DID YOU GET THE NICKNAME KNUCKLES IF YOU
DON'T FIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WELL, FRIENDS SEEN ME FIGHTING BEFORE.
HOW MANY TIMES?
r
t
23 A. LIKE TWO TIMES.
24 Q. TWO FIGHTS GETS YOU THE NICKNAME OF KNUCKLES?
r 25 A. THAT'S WHAT THEY STARTED CALLING ME.

26 Q. WHO STARTED CALLING YOU THAT?
i
i
27 A. JUST FRIENDS, LIKE A COUPLE FRIENDS WERE
r
!
28 SAYING, "LET'S CALL THIS GUY KNUCKLES."
r
811
, j
1 Q. WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES?

l
2
3
4
A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO IT WAS.
HIGH SCHOOL.
Q.
IT WAS LIKE IN
YOUR FRIENDS, THAT GAVE YOU THE NICKNAME THAT

, J
5 YOU GO BY, YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES?

6 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO IT WAS, BUT, I DON'T KNOW,
7 JUST OTHER PEOPLE STARTED CALLING ME KNUCKLES. LIKE l
8 MOISES -- MOISES WAS CALLING ME KNUCKLES. AFTER THAT,
9 JOSUE WAS CALLING ME KNUCKLES.
10 Q. DID ISMAEL CALL YOU KNUCKLES?
~
,
)
11 A. YEAH. 1
12 Q. DOES SPEEDY CALL YOU KNUCKLES?

I
13 A. NO.
14 Q. WHO GAVE YOU THE NAME OF KNUCKLES? ~I
15
16
A.
Q.
IT WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.
WHO IN HIGH SCHOOL GAVE YOU THAT NAME?
, )
,
J
17 A. I'M GUESSING PROBABLY MOISES.
18 Q. MOISES MIGHT HAVE GIVEN YOU THAT NAME? j
19 A. I THINK IT WAS HIM.

20 Q. IS MOISES A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET?
21 A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
,., !
22 Q. HE'S YOUR BEST FRIEND.

~
23 A. HOW WOULD I KNOW? LIKE, I HAVE REALLY MET HIM I
24 LIKE A YEAR BEFORE THAT. WE WERE CLOSE, BUT HE WOULD

25 NEVER TELL ME NOTHING LIKE THAT.
26 Q. YOU GUYS LIVED IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD,
27 CORRECT?
28 A. YEAH. ~
I
r 812
r 1 Q. YOU HUNG OUT WITH THE SAME PEOPLE, CORRECT?
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q. HE WAS, AS YOU TOLD US TODAY, ONE OF YOUR
CLOSEST FRIENDS, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH, ONE OF THEM.
AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS A MEMBER OF 38TH
r 7
8
STREET?
A. NO.
r 9
10
Q.
STREET?
WHAT ABOUT JOSUE? IS HE A MEMBER OF 38TH
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT IS HIS NICKNAME?
SCRAPPY.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
HOW DID HE GET THE NAME OF SCRAPPY?
I DON'T KNOW THAT.
r
t
16 Q. BUT HE IS ONE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS, THOUGH,
17 CORRECT?
r 18 A. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?
r 19
20
Q. WELL, HE IS ONE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS.
WOULD YOU KNOW?
HOW ELSE
r 21
22
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 23
24
SPECULATION.
r 25
26
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. HOW DID HE GET THE NAME OF SCRAPPY?
r
l 27 A. I DON'T KNOW.
r
l
28 Q. IS IT FOR FIGHTING?
r
,
,
j
813
1 A. I DON'T KNOW.
2 Q. IS IT BECAUSE HE'S A FAN OF SCOOBY-DOO?
4 THE COURT: OVERRULED. l
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. IS HE A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET?
7 A. I DON'T KNOW.
8 Q. WHY NOT?
,
9 A. BECAUSE I NEVER ASKED HIM.
10 Q. YOU HUNG OUT WITH HIM ON THE WEEKENDS, CORRECT?
11
12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT?
YEAH.
YOU WENT TO SCHOOL WITH HIM FOR A WHILE, , J
:
14 A. YEAH.
l
15
16
Q.
CORRECT?
YOU LIVED IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD WITH HIM,
,
17 A. YEAH.
~
i:
,
18 Q. AND YOU'RE TELLING US YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE IS A i
19 MEMBER OF 38TH STREET?

i
20 A. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?
21 Q. YOU'RE WITH HIM MOST OF THE TIME, MR. AGUILAR.
22 HOW WOULD YOU NOT?
23 A. I NEVER ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT. ,
24 Q. WHAT ABOUT YOUR FRIEND ISMAEL ACEVES? IS HE A
25 MEMBER OF 38TH STREET?
26 A. NEVER ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT EITHER.
27 Q. WHAT IS HIS NICKNAME?
28 A. I DON'T KNOW HIS NICKNAME. HE'S KNOWN BY
r 814
r 1 ISMAEL.
r 2 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS DAD?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU KNOW IF -- WHO IS DANIEL ZEPEDA,
5 MR. AGUILAR?
r 6 A. FRIEND OF MINE.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
HOW CLOSE?
JUST HIGH SCHOOL. HANG OUT IN HIGH SCHOOL.
r 9 Q. IS HE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?

10 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT.
r
l 11 Q. WHAT'S HIS NICKNAME?
r
l
12 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT EITHER.
13 Q. YOU WERE CAUGHT HANGING OUT WITH HIM ON
r 14
15
JULY 15, 2008, CORRECT?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 16
17
Q. YOU WERE WITH HIM AND MOISES LOPEZ AT THAT TIME
AT POINT LOMA HIGH. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
r 18 A. I WAS WITH -- YEAH, WE WERE GOING TO THE SAME
19 SCHOOL.
r 20 Q. ZEPEDA IS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET.
r 21
22
DO YOU KNOW THAT?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q.
KNOW?
YET HE IS A FRIEND OF YOURS AND YOU DIDN'T
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES. AND I DON'T KNOW.
ON OCTOBER 18, 2008, YOU WERE CONTACTED WITH
r 27 MR. ACEVES. MR. ACEVES IS A KNOWN MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN
F 28 38TH STREET. YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?

I
!
r
,
,
i
815
l
1 A. (WITNESS SHAKES HEAD.)
~ I
2 THE COURT: NEGATIVE SHAKE OF THE HEAD. j
3 THE WITNESS: NO.

4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER BEING CONTACTED ON OCTOBER 31ST
6 OF 2008 BY THE POLICE?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. WHO WERE YOU WITH ON THAT DAY?
fl!!r1
i
9 A. ISMAEL, JOSUE AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE. I FORGOT
10 WHO.
'i
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW ANDY ANDRADE? )
12 A. YEAH, ANDY WAS THERE TOO. ~

)
)
13 Q. THAT'S A-N-D-R-A-D-E, FOR THE RECORD.

14 DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT flll9
i I
15 DAY?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THEM YOU KICK IT WITH
18 SHELL TOWN?
19 A. I SAID THAT?
20 Q. DID YOU?
21 A. I DON'T REMEMBER TELLING THEM THAT.
22 Q. WHAT WOULD IT MEAN TO KICK IT WITH SHELLTOWN?
23 A. SEE THEM.
24 Q. WOULDN'T IT MEAN THAT YOU'RE A MEMBER OF
25 SHELLTOWN?
26 A. HOW WOULD I BE? JUST BECAUSE YOU HANG OUT WITH
27 THEM?
28 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER ON THE SAME DAY ISMAEL
r 816
r 1 ACEVES WAS TAGGING "38TH STREET" WHILE HE WAS WITH YOU?
r 2 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT. I REMEMBER THEY PUT "REST
r 3
4
IN PEACE."
Q. HOW ABOUT ON NOVEMBER 1ST, 2008, WHAT WERE YOU
r 5
6
DOING THAT DAY?
A. NOVEMBER 1ST?
r 7
8
Q.
A.
THAT WAS THE NEXT DAY.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 9 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER BEING WITH JOSUE AND ISMAEL
r
10 AGAIN?
r 12
13
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE THAT YOU
HAVE SHELLTOWN FRIENDS?
r 14
15 EVIDENCE.
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
MR. TROCHA:
I SAID I SEEN THEM LIKE --
IT DOES. I WITHDRAW THAT
r 18 QUESTION.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU. SUSTAINED.
r 21
22
Q. DO YOU RECALL THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE WAS ALSO
SPRAY PAINTING "38TH STREET"?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I GUESS SO, YEAH.
SO THIS IS TWO TIMES YOU'VE SEEN ONE OF YOUR
r 25 BEST FRIENDS SPRAY PAINTING "SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET"; IS
r 26
27
THAT CORRECT?
A. NO, I NEVER SEEN THEM DOING THAT.
r
I
28 Q. YOU WERE RIGHT THERE, MR. AGUILAR. HOW COULD
r
817
l
l
1 YOU NOT?
2 A. THEY PUT "REST IN PEACE, MOISES." SMOKEY,
3 SOMEONE LIKE THAT. THAT'S WHAT THEY PUT.
4 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ON NOVEMBER 30, 2008, BEING l
WITH DANIEL ZEPEDA AGAIN?
5
1
,
J
6 A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER.
7 Q. YOU WERE ALSO WITH ISMAEL ACEVES ON THAT DAY,
)
8 CORRECT, IF YOU REMEMBER?

1
9
10
11
A.
Q.
A.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
WHO IS JOSEPH SANTOS?
I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS.
, J
12 Q. WHO IS RICARDO ORTIZ?

13 A. I DON'T KNOW.
14 Q. WHO IS CHRISTOPHER LOPEZ? ~
\
15 A. I DON'T KNOW HIM.

'ii
,
16 Q. YOU WERE WITH THEM ON DECEMBER 3RD OF 2008.
J
17 A. DECEMBER 3RD, 2008? I DON'T REMEMBER THEM.

18 Q. THESE ALL TOOK PLACE WITHIN THREE SQUARE BLOCKS I
!
19 OF THE PARK, MR. AGUILAR.

20 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO I WAS WITH. THAT WAS A
21 LONG TIME AGO.
22 Q. THOSE WOULD ALSO BE WITHIN THREE SQUARE BLOCKS
23 OF YOUR HOME AT THAT TIME, MR. AGUILAR.
24 A. YEAH.
25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER BEING AT A VACANT HOUSE ON
26 APRIL 30, 2009?
27 A. OH, YEAH. IT WAS LIKE IN THE BACKYARD. l
28 Q. WHO WERE YOU WITH?
r 818
r 1 A. WITH ISMAEL.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE YOU DOING?
RIGHT THERE IN THE BACK. WE WERE JUST PASSING
i
l 4 BY.
r 5
6 CAME?
Q. WHY DID YOU RUN FROM THE HOUSE WHEN THE POLICE
r 7
8
A. WELL, BECAUSE I GUESS THAT WAS LIKE -- THAT WAS
LIKE AN ABANDONED HOUSE. AND WHEN WE SEEN SOME GUY COME
r 9
10
IN, SO WE JUST LEFT, AND WE WERE RUNNING.
COPS WERE BEHIND US, SO WE STOPPED.
AND THEN THE
r 11 Q. THIS ABANDONED HOUSE HAD FRESH TAGGING OF
r 12
13
"SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET" ON IT.
DID YOU SEE THAT WHILE YOU WERE AT THAT HOUSE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I WAS ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE.
IT WAS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE,
r 16
17
MR. AGUILAR.
A. NO.
DID YOU SEE IT?
THERE IS TAGGING IN THE ALLEY, BUT I DON'T
r 18 KNOW IF IT WAS OUTSIDE OF THAT HOUSE.
r 19
20
Q. ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2009, YOU WERE VISITING MOISES
LOPEZ'S GRAVE, CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHO WAS WITH YOU?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CAROL, RONALD AND JOSUE.
AND ISMAEL, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
OH, YEAH. YEAH, HIM TOO.
WERE YOU WEARING A T-SHIRT MEMORIALIZING
i 27 MOISES'S DEATH?
'
F 28 A. YEAH.
I
r
,
819
, 1
1 Q. THAT T-SHIRT HAD "SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET" ON IT,
2 DID IT NOT?
3
4
A.
Q.
ON THE SHIRT?
YES.
, I
J
5 A. NO.
6 Q. DO YOU STILL HAVE THAT SHIRT?
7 A. WHAT SHIRT? THE MOISES? l )
8 Q. YEAH.
~
9 A. YEAH, I GOT HIS SHIRT. f
,
J
10 Q. YOU WERE WITH THREE MORE PEOPLE -- ON

\
11 OCTOBER 22, 2009, YOU AGAIN WITH MR. ACEVES, CORRECT? I
12 A. WITH WHO?
13 Q. ISMAEL ACEVES.
l
14 A. PROBABLY.
,.,
I
15 Q. YOU BOTH AT THAT TIME TOLD THE POLICE YOU KNEW
'RfI
16 PEOPLE FROM OVP. J
17 A. OVP?
18 Q. YES. WHAT IS OVP?
19 A. I DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF OVP?
21 A. OCEAN VIEW PARK, I GUESS. ., l
j
22 Q. IT'S A PLACE YOU HANG OUT, CORRECT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHAT ABOUT ON FEBRUARY 2ND OF 2009, WHEN YOU
25
26
27
WERE ON IMPERIAL AVENUE, DO YOU REMEMBER BEING CONTACTED
BY THE POLICE AT THAT TIME?
A. NO.
, J
28 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING A DETECTIVE THAT YOU'RE

r 820
r 1 KNUCKLES FROM 38TH STREET?
r 2 A. I SAID THAT'S WHAT THEY GOT ME UNDER.
r 3 Q. WHO'S GOT YOU UNDER?
4 A. THE POLICE, BECAUSE EVERY TIME THEY TELL ME,
r 5
6
LIKE, "YOU A GANG MEMBER," I TELL THEM NO, THEY ALWAYS
TELL ME THAT, AND THEY ALWAYS COME UP TELLING ME I'M
r 7
8
KNUCKLES FROM SHELLTOWN.
THAT NAME.
I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY GAVE ME
r 9
10
Q. BECAUSE PEOPLE CALL YOU KNUCKLES,
MR. AGUILAR.
PERHAPS,
r 11 A. YEAH. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY THE COPS ALWAYS
r 12
13
BRING IT UP SAYING THAT. I ALWAYS TELL THEM THAT THAT'S
NOT WHAT THEY CALL ME NO MORE AND I'M NOT A
r 14
15
GANG-BANGER.
Q. YET ON SEPTEMBER 26, 2010, YOU WERE SEEN WITH
r 16
17
ISMAEL AGAIN, CORRECT?
A. PROBABLY, YEAH.
i
I 18 Q. ON THAT DAY ISMAEL WAS SEEN TAGGING "38TH
r 19
20
STREET SCRAPPY."
A. FOR REAL?
r 21
22
Q.
A.
YOU WERE THERE, MR. AGUILAR.
NO.
DID YOU SEE IT?
r 23
24
Q. ON OCTOBER 8, 2010, YOU WERE AGAIN CONTACTED
WITH DANIEL ZEPEDA; DO YOU RECALL THAT?
r 25 A. PROBABLY, YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHERE WERE YOU?
I DON'T KNOW.
~ 28 Q. WHERE IS 1300 RIGEL, R-I-G-E-L?

I
i
il
821
1
l
1 A. 1300 RIGEL? I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT GOOD WITH
~
I
2 STREET NAMES. J
3 Q. FINALLY, ON FEBRUARY 14, VALENTINE'S DAY OF

4
6
THIS YEAR, DO YOU REMEMBER BEING CONTACTED BY THE POLICE
AT 3900 OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD?
A. WHERE IS THAT AT?
, J
7 Q. THAT WOULD BE A BLOCK TO THE WEST OF THE

8 PARK -- EXCUSE ME -- A BLOCK EAST OF THE PARK.
~
9 A. WHICH WAY IS THAT? !
J
10 Q. IT IS WEST. TO THE BOTTOM OF THE TOP PICTURE

11 ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1.
12 A. GOING WHERE? CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE?
13 Q. SURE. THIS IS THE 4000 BLOCK OF OCEAN VIEW
14 BOULEVARD.
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. IT WOULD BE ONE BLOCK THIS WAY.
1
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER BEING CONTACTED BY THE POLICE
19 EARLIER THIS YEAR AT THAT LOCATION?
20 A. IN THAT BLOCK?
Q. YES.
21
22 A. PROBABLY. I DON'T KNOW.
l
23 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE OFFICER YOU
24 WERE KNUCKLES?
25 A. PROBABLY. I ALWAYS TELL THEM THAT'S WHAT THE
26 POLICE GOT ME UNDER.
l
27
28
Q.
CORRECT?
YOU TOLD THEM YOU WERE KNUCKLES FROM SHELLTOWN,
, \
I
"1
!
r 822
r 1 A. I NEVER SAID THAT.
r 2 Q. AND THEN YOU COPPED THAT OFF WITH, YOU JUST
r
3 STARTED KICKING IT RECENTLY.
4 A. I SAID I HAVE SEEN THEM RECENTLY. I MET THEM
r 5
6
RECENTLY, BUT NOT KICKED WITH THEM.
Q. SO ALL OF THESE CONTACTS WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND
r 7
8
YOU STILL DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE GANG MEMBERS?
A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEM. THEY ALWAYS SAY THAT
r 9 THEY DON'T BANG, THAT THEY JUST DOWN LIKE THAT TO
r 10
11
POLICE, THAT THEY SEEN THEM BEFORE WITH OTHER PEOPLE
THAT I GUESS THAT BANG.
r 12
13
Q.
AT ALL.
YOU'RE TELLING US THAT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU GAVE
r 16
17
US TODAY ABOUT THE QUINCEANERA AND THE SHOOTING.
YOU SAID YOU WERE AT THE GAZEBO ON THE SOUTH
r 18 PART OF THE PARK, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
SIDE.
YEAH. ON THE GAZEBO, LIKE A LITTLE BIT TO THE
r 21
22
Q. YOU SAID THE CARNE ASADA ENDED, AT THE LATEST,
AROUND 7:00 AT NIGHT.
r 23
24 TESTIMONY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES HIS
r 25 THE WITNESS: SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE. I DON'T
r
26 KNOW.
27 THE COURT: OVERRULED. I THINK HIS TESTIMONY
r! 28 WAS, I THINK, FIVE OR SIX, HE DIDN'T REMEMBER. BUT IT'S
r
823
, J
l
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION. I'LL ALLOW IT.
~
2 BY MR. TROCHA: J
3 Q. YOU SAID THAT EVERYONE LEFT EXCEPT FOR YOU AND
l
4
5
MOISES IN THE PARK, CORRECT?
A. YEAH. , J
6 Q. HOW DID MOISES GET THERE?
7 A. WELL, HE LIVED CLOSE BY. PROBABLY WALKING.
8 Q. DID YOU TELL THE POLICE HE ROAD HIS BIKE THERE?
~
j
9 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T REMEMBER.
10 Q. DO YOU NEED TO SEE A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT TO
11 REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
12 A. WELL, I GUESS HE WAS ON A BIKE. I DON'T
I
13
14
15
REMEMBER.
Q. SO IF HE'S ON A BIKE, HE WOULD HAVE RIDDEN THAT
HOME OR SOMEONE ELSE WOULD HAVE RIDDEN IT HOME,
, J
16 CORRECT?
17 A. SOMEBODY ELSE PROBABLY TOOK IT.
18 Q. WHO WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT? 1
19 A. I DON'T KNOW. ANYBODY THAT WAS THERE.
20 Q. WELL, YOU TOLD US YOU REMEMBER IT BECAUSE THIS
21 IS THE DAY YOUR FRIEND DIED. \
J
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. SO DID HE RIDE HIS BIKE HOME OR DID SOMEONE
24 ELSE?
~
I
25 A. HE DIDN'T HAVE HIS BIKE. :
I
26 Q. HE DIDN'T?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. SO WHEN YOU TOLD THE POLICE HE DID RIDE HIS
~ i
r 824
r 1 BIKE, WAS THAT A MISTAKE?
r 2
3
A. THAT WAS BEFORE, EARLIER THAT DAY.
GOT THERE LIKE THAT.
HE PROBABLY
r
I 4 Q. HE PROBABLY GOT THERE LIKE THAT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE?
r
I.
7
8
A. PROBABLY PRETTY SURE.
ALWAYS ON A BIKE.
PROBABLY DID. HE WAS
r 9 Q. SHOWING YOU PAGE 185 OF THE DISCOVERY. THIS IS
r 10
11
FROM YOUR INTERVIEW THREE DAYS AFTER YOUR FRIEND'S
DEATH.
r 12
13
DO YOU SEE WHERE IT SAYS, "WE WERE EATING, AND
THAT IS WHEN I SAW MOISES ARRIVE"?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THEN RIGHT AFTER THAT YOU SAID, "MOISES
r 16
17
CAME ON HIS BIKE AND HE WAS BY HIMSELF."
A. YEAH. HE WAS ON HIS BIKE THEN.
r 18 Q. SO YOU WERE AT THE CARNE ASADA FIRST.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THEN MOISES SHOWED UP.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
SO YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM EARLIER THAT DAY.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
JUST THAT TIME RIGHT WHEN HE GOT THERE.
SO YOU'RE HANGING OUT WITH MOISES, CAROL, SOME
r 25
26
OTHER PEOPLE.
A. YES.
r 27 Q. THE QUINCEANERA ENDS -- I'M SORRY -- THE CARNE
r 28 ASADA ENDS.
rl
,..,
,
t
I
j
825
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. AND THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE A QUINCEANERA YOU
3 GUYS ARE GOING TO LATER.
4 A. YEAH.
Q. WHOSE QUINCEANERA WAS IT?
5
l
6
7
A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, BUT THERE WAS A FRIEND
IN THERE SAID HE COULD GET US IN.
Q. WHO?
, I
8
~I
9 A. BECAUSE JOSUE KNEW THAT PERSON. I
10 Q. SO JOSUE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TELL US WHICH

11
12
FRIEND?
A. I THINK SOMEBODY HAD A FRIEND, OR I THINK WE ,
13
14
15
WERE JUST GOING TO GO LIKE THAT.
Q.
A.
HOW WERE YOU DRESSED THAT DAY?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
, J
"'9
16 Q. HOW ARE YOU DRESSED THAT DAY? i
I
18 Q. HOW ARE YOU DRESSED TODAY?
19 A. BLACK PANTS, GRAY SHIRT.
20
21
Q. WOULD THAT BE SIMILAR TO HOW YOU WERE DRESSED
ON THE DAY OF THE CARNE ASADA? ,
22
23
A.
Q.
I DON'T THINK SO. I WASN'T DRESSED LIKE THIS.
WERE YOU WEARING SHORTS MAYBE?
, )
24 A. PANTS, YEAH.
25 Q. A T-SHIRT OR A BUTTON-DOWN SHIRT?
26 A. A T-SHIRT, I THINK.
27 SO KIND OF LIKE HOW YOU'RE DRESSED TODAY. NOT l
,
Q.
28 EXACTLY.
, !
r 826
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q. WEREN'T YOU GOING TO CHANGE TO GO TO THE
r
3 QUINCEANERA?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q. WEREN'T THEY GOING TO CHANGE, YOUR FRIENDS?
WEREN'T JOSUE, RONALD AND CAROL GOING TO CHANGE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T THINK SO.
THEY WERE JUST GOING TO GO AS THEY WERE --
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YEAH.
-- AFTER THEY DROPPED OFF THE STUFF AT CAROL'S
r 11 HOUSE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND YOU WAITED IN THE SAME LOCATION OF THE PARK
r 14
15
FOR HOW LONG FOR THEM TO COME BACK?
A. PROBABLY LIKE -- I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS LIKE
r 16
17
A LONG TIME, PROBABLY HALF AN HOUR.
Q. IN FACT, YOU WAITED THERE UNTIL YOU STARTED
r 18 WALKING JUST EAST ON OCEAN VIEW AND HEARD GUNSHOTS.
r 19
20
A. WE WERE WAITING THERE FOR A WHILE, AND THAT'S
WHEN MOISES LEFT AND I STARTED GOING TOWARDS CAROL'S
r 21
22
HOUSE TO LOOK FOR THEM.
Q. SO MOISES LEFT AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME YOU
r 23
24
STARTED GOING TO LOOK FOR CAROL?
A. NO. I'M GUESSING 20 -- 10, 20 MINUTES LATER.
r 25 I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. BUT WHEN YOU STARTED HEADING UP OCEAN VIEW IS
r
26
27 WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS.
r 28 A. YEAH. I WAS, LIKE, CLOSE TO PASQUAL, SOMEWHERE
r
827
! J
1 AROUND THERE. A LITTLE BACK.

2 Q. THIS WOULD BE THE WAY TO GET TO CAROL'S HOUSE, 1
3 CORRECT?
4 A. YEAH.
5 Q. SO IF YOU'RE DRIVING IN A CAR, YOU WOULD DRIVE
6 UP OCEAN VIEW AND THEN GO HEAD TOWARDS SAN PASQUAL.
7 A. YEAH.
8
9
Q. IT WOULD BE THE SAME IF SOMEONE WAS DRIVING
FROM CAROL'S HOUSE TO COME BACK TO THE PARK, CORRECT?
., I
10 A. YEAH. ..,
11
12
13
Q.
A.
Q.
DID YOU SEE THE VAN PASS YOU?
NO.
YOU DIDN'T?
, J
i
14 A. NO.
l
15
16
Q. DID YOU EVER SEE THE VAN THAT JOSUE, CAROL AND
RON GOT INTO WHILE YOU WERE WALKING BACK TOWARDS THAT
,., i
i
17 HOUSE?
18 A. NO, I DIDN'T SEE IT.
19 Q. ARE YOU SURE YOU DIDN'T CUT THROUGH THE PARK?
20 A. NO. I WENT THROUGH OCEAN VIEW, AND I DIDN'T
21 SEE THEM UP THERE. ~
l
22 Q. YOU DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE NEAR OCEAN VIEW PARK,
23 THE NORTHERN SECTION?
24 A. NO. I WENT DOWN THE STREET.
25 Q. DID YOU SEE POLICE CARS?
26 A. YEAH, I SEEN SOME POLICE CARS.
l
27
28
Q.
A.
WHERE?
RIGHT DOWN OCEAN VIEW. ,
l
r 828
r 1 Q. WHERE ON OCEAN VIEW?
r 2 A. LIKE COMING FROM -- I THINK IT WAS 47TH,
r
3 PROBABLY.
4 Q. 47TH?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THAT WOULD BE SEVEN BLOCKS OFF THE MAP,
r 7
8
CORRECT?
A. YEAH, IT WOULD BE LIKE ONE STREET, OCEAN VIEW.
r 9 Q. THIS IS 40TH STREET, CORRECT, MR. AGUILAR?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THE NEXT STREET OVER IS CUYAMACA, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I THINK.
47TH STREET IS AT LEAST SIX TO SEVEN BLOCKS
r 14
15
FARTHER FROM THAT, CORRECT?
A. YEAH, FARTHER UP THAT WAY.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
SO THE POLICE PASSED YOU.
NO.
r 18 Q. DID YOU MAKE IT ALL THE WAY DOWN TO 47TH?
r 19
20
A. NO. I WAS LIKE TOWARDS PASQUAL.
LIKE A LITTLE BIT BEFORE -- WAY BEFORE THAT.

PASQUAL IS
r 21
22
Q.
A.
THE POLICE PASSED YOU, THOUGH.
NO.
[ 23 Q. WHERE DID YOU SEE THE POLICE THEN?
24 A. I SEEN THEM -- LIKE, I THINK I SEEN THEM ON
r 25 THAT BLOCK, I DON'T REMEMBER, RIGHT DOWN OCEAN VIEW, BUT
r 26
27
LIKE A LITTLE BIT MORE FORWARD UP.
Q. BUT YOU WERE ON OCEAN VIEW WHEN THE SHOTS WERE
F 28 FIRED.
\
r
829
, 1
l
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET FROM THE PARK l
3 TO SAN PASQUAL?
4
6
A.
PROBABLY.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS FIVE MINUTES,
IT'S A COUPLE BLOCKS, RIGHT?

,
l
J
7 A. Y~H. l
8
9
Q. YOU WERE WALKING.
YOUR LEGS, CORRECT?
YOU HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH
, I
10 A. YEAH.
~
I
11 Q. SO IF YOU'RE STANDING IN THE PARK, BEFORE YOU i
12 START WALKING -- AND YOU WERE SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR

13 JOSUE, RIGHT?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
CAROL.
THAT WHOLE GROUP.
l
16 A. YEAH. l
17 Q. BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE YOU TO THE
18 PARTY, RIGHT?
19 A. YEAH. WELL, WE WERE GOING TO GO TOGETHER.
20 Q. SO YOU WERE GOING TO GO WITH THEM. l
21 A. YEAH.
22
23
Q.
A.
THEY WERE GOING TO PICK YOU UP, RIGHT?
YEAH.
, J
24 Q. AND YET YOU NEVER SAW THEM.
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. YOU WERE NEVER IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE
l
27
28
PARK.
A. WHAT SIDE IS THAT? , 1
r 830
r 1 Q. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF OCEAN VIEW.
r 2 A. YEAH. I WAS NEVER THERE.
r
3 Q. IF ANYTHING, YOU WERE HEADED TOWARDS THEIR
4 HOUSE, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH, TOWARDS CAROL'S HOUSE.
DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO THE POLICE AND
r 7
8
TELLING THEM WHERE MOISES WENT WHEN HE LEFT?
A. YEAH. HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO MEET ME AT THE
r 9 QUINCEANERA.
r 10
11
Q. AND HE WAS GOING TO GO HOME, AS YOU TOLD US
TODAY, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
HE WAS GOING TO GO HOME?
DIDN'T YOU TELL US HE WAS GOING TO GO HOME AND
r 14
15
CHANGE AND MEET YOU AT THE QUINCEANERA?
r 16
17
TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THAT, SIR?
r 18 THE WITNESS: NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT.
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO HE WASN'T GOING HOME?
r 21
22
A. I DON'T THINK HE WAS. HE TOLD ME HE WAS GOING
TO MEET ME AT THE QUINCEANERA, SO HE WAS GOING TO THE
r 23
24
QUINCEANERA.
Q. DID YOU SEE HIM HEAD TOWARD THE NEIGHBORHOOD
r 25 HOUSE THEN?
A. NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE? NO. I JUST SEEN HIM GO
r
26
27 THROUGH THE BACK. I WAS IN FRONT OF THE BATHROOMS, AND
r 28 HE WENT TOWARDS THE BACK, AND --
r
831
, J
1 Q. WHY DON'T YOU GET UP AND SHOW US WHERE YOU WERE

2 WHEN MOISES LEFT. 1
3 A. I WAS RIGHT HERE IN THE FRONT.
4 Q. YOU'RE POINTING TO THE BOTTOM OF THE MAP --
5 EXCUSE ME -- THE BOTTOM OF THE PARK ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4
J
6 1, JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE TENNIS COURTS.
~
7 A. YEAH, RIGHT HERE. \
I
8 Q. WHERE WAS MOISES?

9 A. HE WAS RIGHT HERE WITH ME.
10 Q. WHERE DID HE HEAD TO?
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
HE LEFT THIS WAY LIKE THIS.
TOWARDS 40TH STREET?
YEAH. RIGHT HERE IS 40TH STREET.
,
l
J
14 Q. OKAY. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT.

1
15 FOR THE RECORD AND FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T SEE,
,
16
17
18
MR. AGUILAR POINTED TOWARDS THIS WHITE ROOF BUILDING
JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE TENNIS COURTS ON PEOPLE'S
EXHIBIT 1, STATED HE AND MOISES WERE THERE. WHEN MOISES
, l
19 LEFT, HE HEADED TOWARDS 40TH STREET, WHICH WOULD BE ON

1
20
21
22
THE DIAGRAM, WHICH WOULD BE TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THE
DIAGRAM.
,
23 BY MR. TROCHA: ,
\
24 Q. WHERE DID MOISES LIVE AT THE TIME?

25 A. ALL THE WAY DOWN THE STREET. l J
26 Q. ON T STREET, CORRECT?
27 A. I THINK IT WAS T STREET. l
28 Q. T STREET IS THE FARTHEST STREET TO THE RIGHT ON
~I
J
!
r 832
r 1 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1, THE TOP PHOTOGRAPH, CORRECT?
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
AND HE LIVED DOWN.
YEAH.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
NOT UP TOWARDS THE HOUSE, CORRECT?
YEAH, DOWN.
r 7
8
Q. THE QUINCEANERA, THOUGH, HE WOULD HEAD THE
OPPOSITE DIRECTION IF HE WAS GOING THERE, CORRECT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YEAH. HE WENT UP THAT WAY.
DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE THAT HE
r 11 ACTUALLY WALKED TOWARDS THE NORTHERN PART?
r 12
13
A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. HE LIVED DOWN THAT
WAY, SO HE PROBABLY WENT TO THE NORTHERN PART.
r 14
15
Q.
THAT.
EXCUSE ME? I DIDN'T CATCH THE LAST PART OF
WHAT DID YOU SAY?
r 16
17
A. HE LIVED DOWN THAT WAY, SO I'M GUESSING HE
MIGHT HAVE WENT ANOTHER WAY.
r 18 Q. HE'S GOING TO THE QUINCEANERA, THOUGH. HE
r 19
20
WOULD HEAD SOUTH.
A. YEAH.
r 21
22
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE THREE DAYS
AFTER YOUR BEST FRIEND WAS KILLED, HE WENT NORTH?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
YOUR STATEMENT WAS, "WE WERE RIGHT BY THE
r 25
26
OFFICE,
A.
(THE RECREATION CENTER.)"
YEAH.
DO YOU SEE THAT?
r 27 Q. AND MOISES SAID, "I'M GOING TO LEAVE." DO YOU
r 28 SEE THAT?
r
833
, _J
1
-1
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: COUNSEL, CAN WE GET A PAGE?

2 MR. TROCHA: 185 OF DISCOVERY. 1
4 THE WITNESS: YEAH. l
5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. "MOISES LEFT TOWARDS THE OTHER PARK (NORTH OF
1
7 OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD WHERE THE INCIDENT OCCURRED) AND I 1'
8 STAYED THERE."
l
9
10
11
A.
REMEMBER.
Q.
I'M GUESSING HE WENT THAT WAY. I DON'T
SO THREE DAYS AFTER YOUR FRIEND WAS KILLED, YOU

, f
12 PUT YOURSELF OVER BY THE REC CENTER.

13 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN I PUT MYSELF?
1 }
14
15
Q. YOU TOLD THE POLICE YOU WERE DOWN BY THE REC
CENTER, NOT DOWN BY THE BATHROOMS.
l
16 A. I SAID THAT? I NEVER SAID THAT, THE REC 1
,
j
17 CENTER. RIGHT THERE BY THE BATHROOMS I TOLD THEM.

18 Q. THERE'S ANOTHER REC CENTER? 1
19 A. WELL, YEAH. THE REC CENTER ALL THE WAY OVER
20 THERE ON THE CORNER. l
21 Q. BUT YOU SAID YOU WERE BY THE BATHROOMS TODAY.
22 A. YEAH. THAT'S WHERE WE WERE AT, BY THE
l
23 BATHROOMS. 1
24 Q. YET THREE DAYS AFTER THE MURDER, YOU SAID YOU
~
25 WERE BY THE REC CENTER. j
26 A. NO. I TOLD THEM I WAS BY THE BATHROOM.
27 Q. THREE DAYS AFTER THE MURDER, YOU DIDN'T SEE l
28 MOISES WALK TOWARDS T STREET. YOU SAID HE WALKED INTO
l
l
r 834
r 1 THE NORTHERN PARK.
r 2 A. I'M GUESSING. HE LIVED DOWN THAT WAY, SO
r 3
4
OBVIOUSLY HE WENT TOWARDS THE NORTHERN PART.
Q. IF HE HEADED SOUTH, HOW DID HE GET TO THE
r 5
6
NORTHERN PARK?
r 7
8
SPECULATION.
r 9
10
THE WITNESS:
HE WENT TOWARDS THE BACK.
I WAS IN FRONT OF THE BATHROOMS.
HE COULD HAVE LEFT ANY OTHER
r 11 WAY. HE COULD HAVE LEFT TOWARDS THAT WAY OR TOWARDS THE
r 12
13
OTHER WAY.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WAS THE QUINCEANERA IN THE NORTHERN PARK?
IT'S OVER THERE IN THE CORNER, THE
r 16
17
QUINCEANERA.
Q. ON THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE PARK.
r 18 A. YEAH, THAT SIDE.
r 19
20
Q. SO IF HE WAS GOING TO WAIT FROM YOU AT THE
QUINCEANERA, WHY WOULD HE HAVE GONE TO THE NORTHERN
r 21
22
PARK?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 23
24 HIM GO.
Q. YET YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT'S WHERE YOU SAW
r 25 A. I SEEN HIM GO TOWARDS THE BACK, AND FROM THERE

HE COULD HAVE LEFT ANY OTHER WAY.
r
26
27 Q. IT WAS AFTER THAT TIME, YOU TOLD THE POLICE,
r 28 THAT'S WHEN YOU WERE GOING TO WALK TOWARDS CAROL'S
r
835
,
l
1 HOUSE.
2 A. YEAH, THAT'S WHEN I DECIDED TO WALK TOWARDS l
3 CAROL'S HOUSE.
4
5
6
Q. "I WAS GOING DOWN OCEAN VIEW EASTBOUND WHEN I
HEARD THE GUNSHOTS."
A. YEAH.
,
l
J
8
Q.
A.
"FIRST I HEARD A GUNSHOT AND I STOPPED."
YEAH, I HEARD GUNSHOTS.
l
9 Q. "I TURNED AROUND AND HEARD MORE GUNSHOTS."
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. "I THEN STARTED RUNNING DOWN THE HILL." l
12 A. YEAH, WELL, I WAS PRETTY MUCH RUNNING, YEAH.
13 Q. "I WENT TO SAN MIGUEL TO LOS PINOS, AND THAT'S
1
14 WHEN I SEEN CAROL'S MOM DRIVING THE CAR."
l
15
16
17
A.
Q.
A.
YEAH.
SO YOU DID SEE CAROL'S MOM.
YEAH, HER MOM.
,
18 Q. JOSUE WASN'T IN THE CAR? 1
19 A. NO.
20 Q. CAROL WASN'T IN THE CAR. l
21 A. NO.
l
22
23
Q.
A.
AND NEITHER WAS RONALD.
NO.
,
,
J
24 Q. SO YOU RECOGNIZED THE VAN THEY WERE IN THAT
25 PICKED THEM UP FROM THE PARK. J
26 A. NO. SHE WAS IN THE CAR.
27 Q. NOT A VAN? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 836
r 1 Q. THERE WAS NO VAN?
r 2 A. NO. SHE WAS IN THE CAR. SHE TOLD ME -- SHE
r
3 TOLD ME, "WHERE'S MY KIDS AT?" AND I SAID, "THEY CAME
4 THIS WAY." AND SHE SAID THAT THEY LEFT TO A PARTY. AND
r 5
6
THEN SHE'S ALL LIKE -- SHE ASKED ME,
GUNSHOTS?" AND I SAID, "YES."

"DID YOU HEAR THE
AND SHE'S LIKE, "DO YOU
r 7
8
WANT A RIDE HOME?"
Q.
SO SHE GAVE ME A RIDE HOME.
SO AT THIS TIME YOU'RE JUST EAST OF THE PARK.
r 9 A. YEAH, I'M CLOSE OVER THERE, LIKE GOING TOWARDS
r 10
11
CAROL'S HOUSE.
Q. DID YOU SEE ABOUT A DOZEN PEOPLE RUNNING
r 12
13
THROUGH THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, MR. AGUILAR?
A. NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
NO.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHO IS CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
I THINK THAT'S RONALD'S BROTHER.
r 18 Q. IT'S HIS OLDER BROTHER, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH.
IS CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN
r 21
22
38TH STREET?
A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT IS HIS NICKNAME?
I DON'T KNOW THAT.
r 25
26
Q. HE LIVES AT THE SAME HOUSE THAT CAROL DOES,
DOES HE NOT?
r 27 A. I'M GUESSING.
r 28 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT?
r
837
l
1 1
1 A. I NEVER SEEN NO ONE WHEN I GO TO RONALD'S

2 HOUSE. I NEVER SEEN HIM THERE. l
3 Q. SO YOU'RE IN THE AREA JUST EAST OF THE PARK
4 AFTER THESE GUNSHOTS AND YOU RUN INTO CAROL'S MOM. l
5 A. YEAH.
1
6
8
Q.
PARK.
A.
YOU DON'T SEE ANYBODY ELSE RUNNING FROM THE
I DON'T SEE NOBODY AT THAT TIME. I'M JUST

, :r
9 RIGHT THERE GOING TOWARDS CAROL'S HOUSE, AND THAT'S WHEN l

10 I SEE HER MOM.
l
11 Q. BUT JOSUE IS NOT WITH THEM. J
12 A. WELL, NO, I GUESS HE LEFT WITH CAROL AND RONALD

13 AND JUST, I GUESS, TO THE PARTY. l
,
l
14 Q. YET YOU NEVER SAW THEM AT THE PARTY, CORRECT?
15 A. YEAH -- AT THE PARTY? I DIDN'T EVEN GO TO A
16 PARTY. I WENT TOWARDS CAROL'S HOUSE.
j.
17 Q. THAT'S BECAUSE THEY NEVER PICKED YOU UP IN THE
1
,
18 PARK.
19 A. YEAH.
l
20 Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE LOOKING FOR THEM. r
21 A. YEAH. -t
22
23
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU KNOW GLENNYS BERUMEN WAS A GIRL?
BECAUSE THAT WAS MY FRIEND'S GIRLFRIEND.
, J
J
24 Q. WHEN COUNSEL ASKED YOU IF YOU KNEW GLENNYS
25 BERUMEN, YOU FIRST SAID YOU DIDN'T. l
26 A. YEAH. I DON'T KNOW HER, BUT I KNOW WHO SHE
27 IS -- MY FRIEND'S GIRLFRIEND. l
28 Q. HOW DO YOU --
l
l
r 838
r 1 A. WAS MY FRIEND'S GIRLFRIEND.
r 2 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT SHE WAS DATING ISMAEL
r
3 ACEVES?
4 A. BECAUSE HE TOLD ME WHO HIS GIRL WAS, AND I
r 5
6
GUESS SHE PICKED HIM UP ONE DAY AND TOLD ME HER NAME,
GLENNYS.
r 7
8
Q. SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU GUYS DO TALK
ABOUT WITH YOUR FRIENDS, GIRLS YOU LIKE AND GIRLS YOU
r 9
10
DATE?
A. WELL, NOT TALK ABOUT IT. JUST YOU KNOW I SEEN

r 11 HIM AND HE SAID, "THAT'S MY GIRL RIGHT THERE."
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SO YOU TALKED ABOUT IT.
JUST LIKE RIGHT THERE LIKE THAT. JUST ABOUT
r 14
15
THAT.
Q.
THAT'S ABOUT IT.
BUT YOU DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS DATING YOUR BEST
r 16
17
FRIEND MOISES?
A. MOISES? HE WASN'T DATING NOBODY AT THAT TIME.
r 18 I DON'T THINK HE WAS. NEVER SEEN HIM WITH HIS
r
19 GIRLFRIEND OR NOTHING.
20 Q. JUST AS YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS A MEMBER OF
r 21
22
SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET.
A. NO, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU. MR. SPEREDELOZZI, IS
r 25 THERE REDIRECT?
r
26
r 28 Ill
r
, J
839
l
3 Q. MR. AGUILAR, THE NIGHTS THAT WE'VE BEEN
4 TALKING ABOUT HAPPENED ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO, l
5 RIGHT?
6 A. YEAH, I THINK, YEAH.
l
7 Q. I CAN SEE YOU'RE STRUGGLING TO REMEMBER ALL THE
8 FACTS, RIGHT?
9 A. YEAH. l
10 Q. I MEAN, THIS ISN'T CRYSTAL CLEAR IN YOUR HEAD
l
11
12
ABOUT EVERY BITTY DETAIL, IS IT?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. LEADING. ,
13
14
15
THE COURT: TECHNICALLY CORRECT.
HOWEVER, ON THIS INSTANCE.
YOU MAY ANSWER.
OVERRULED,
, 1
.l
16 THE WITNESS: NOT CLEARLY.

l
18 Q. MR. AGUILAR, YOU WERE SHOWN SOME STATEMENTS ON l
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA FROM A POLICE REPORT.
20 HAVE YOU SEEN THIS POLICE REPORT BEFORE TODAY? l
21 A. BEFORE TODAY, NO.
22 Q. SHOWING THE WITNESS DISCOVERY 185.
l
23
24 A.
BEFORE TODAY, YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THIS?
NO.
l
25 Q. DID YOU WRITE THIS REPORT? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. SOMEBODY ELSE WROTE IT, RIGHT? l
28 A. YEAH.
l
l
r 840
r 1 Q. LET'S CLEAR SOMETHING UP. THAT WHITE BUILDING
r 2 YOU SAID YOU WERE STANDING NEAR ON PROSECUTION I
r
3 THINK IT'S 1 THIS IS THE OLD REC CENTER, ISN'T IT?
4 A. YEAH.
r 5
6
Q. THAT WHITE BUILDING YOU SAID YOU WERE STANDING
NEAR, THAT'S A REC CENTER, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU TOLD THE
r 9
10
POLICE THE NIGHT AFTER THE SHOOTING
YOU WERE STANDING NEAR THE REC CENTER?

RIGHT? -- THAT
r 11 A. YEAH.
r 12
13
Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR CONTACTS WITH THE POLICE.
YOU DON'T LIKE THE POLICE, DO YOU?
i 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DON'T LIKE TO COOPERATE WITH THEM IN ANY
r 16
17
FASHION, DO YOU?
A. NO.
r 18 Q. WHEN THE POLICE CAME TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS
r 19
20
CASE, DID THEY BRING YOU ICE CREAM?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DID THEY TAKE YOU OUT TO LUNCH?
NO.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
RELEVANCE.
IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE.
r~ 25 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
r
26 Q. WERE THEY POLITE TO YOU?
27 A. NO.
r 28 Q. WERE THEY AGGRESSIVE WITH YOU?
r
841
1
1 A. YEAH.
l
2 Q. HOW? 1
3 A. WELL, THEY WERE JUST TELLING ME THAT I WAS
4 THERE, I WAS AT THAT PLACE. THEY WERE SCARING ME, LIKE 1
5 TRYING TO MAKE ME SAY THAT I WAS THERE WHEN I WASN'T
6 EVEN THERE.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
THEY TRIED TO MAKE YOU SAY THINGS?
YEAH. THEY WERE TRYING TO MAKE ME SAY I WAS
l
9 THERE, "STOP LYING." I KEPT TELLING THEM OVER AND OVER l
10 AGAIN I WASN'T THERE.
11 Q. WERE THEY PUTTING PRESSURE ON YOU? l
12 A. NO, NOT REALLY. THEY JUST KEPT ON TELLING ME
l
13
14
15
THAT. THEY HAD ALSO TRIED TELLING ME THAT I SEEN MY
FRIEND GETTING BEAT UP AND THAT -- AND THAT THE PEOPLE
THAT WERE BEATING HIM UP, THEY LOOKED AT ME AND SAID I
,
16
17
WAS NEXT AND THAT'S WHEN I STARTED RUNNING.
THEY SAID.
THAT'S WHAT
l
18 Q. THE POLICE TOLD YOU YOU WERE NEXT? 1
19 A. YEAH, SUPPOSEDLY THAT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE
20 BEATING UP MY FRIEND, THAT THEY LOOKED AT ME AND SAID 1
21 THAT I WAS NEXT.
1
22
23
24
Q. WHEN THEY TOLD YOU YOU WERE NEXT, HOW DID THAT
MAKE YOU FEEL?
A. WELL, I FELT, TO ME, IT WAS LIKE WHATEVER, YOU
,
25 KNOW, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT WASN'T TRUE, YOU KNOW, SO IT l
26 WAS GETTING ME MAD THAT THEY WERE TELLING ME STUFF THAT
1
27
28
WASN'T EVEN TRUE AND THEY WERE TRYING TO SAY IT WAS
TRUE. ,
,
r 842
r
r
1 Q. SO DID YOU FEEL LIKE THEY WERE BEING HONEST
2 WITH YOU?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO, I DIDN'T FEEL THAT.
DID YOU FEEL LIKE THEY WERE LYING TO YOU?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHEN THEY INTERVIEWED YOU, BECAUSE OF THIS DID
r 7
8
IT MAKE YOU NOT WANT TO COOPERATE?
A. YEAH.
r 9 Q. ON THE DATE THAT YOU WERE SHOWN THE LINEUP WITH
r 10
11
MY CLIENT IN IT, THAT WASN'T THE ONLY LINEUP YOU WERE
SHOWN, WAS IT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN LINEUP? LIKE
DO YOU REMEMBER -- DO YOU HAVE THE LINEUP? DO
r 14
15
YOU REMEMBER WHEN MR. TROCHA WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS,
HE SHOWED YOU THIS LINEUP?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND BACK ON THE DATE WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWED
r 18 BY THE POLICE, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD TOLD THE POLICE
r 19
20
OFFICERS, NO, YOU COULDN'T RECOGNIZE ANYBODY IN THIS
LINEUP, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
BUT YOU WERE SHOWN ANOTHER LINEUP -- RIGHT? --
r 23
24
THAT SAME DAY?
A. THAT SAME DAY? YEAH, THEY SHOWED ME A COUPLE.
r 25 Q. THEY SHOWED YOU A BUNCH OF LINEUPS, RIGHT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM YOU SAID, "NO,"
c 28 RIGHT?
r
843
l
1 A. I RECOGNIZED ON ONE OF THEM SOMEBODY ELSE.
l
2 Q. SO -- BUT MOST OF THEM YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T 1
3 RECOGNIZE.
4 A. YEAH, I DIDN'T RECOGNIZE ANYBODY ELSE. l
5 Q. AT THAT POINT IN TIME, YOU WEREN'T COOPERATING
6 WITH THE POLICE, RIGHT?
l
7
8
A. WELL, EVERY TIME THEY WOULD COME, THEY WOULD
TELL ME THAT THEY HAD TO TAKE ME DOWNTOWN. THEY CAME TO
l
9 ME LIKE -- THEY TOOK ME DOWNTOWN LIKE TWO TIMES. ONE l
10 WASN'T DOWNTOWN THOUGH, ONE WAS OVER THERE BY LOGAN, I
11 THINK, ON -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE. l
12 Q. MR. AGUILAR, WHEN YOU STARTED WALKING DOWN
1
13
14
15
OCEAN VIEW AFTER MOISES HAD LEFT, DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING
AT THAT POINT IN TIME.
A. IT WAS DARK -- PRETTY DARK.
,
16
17
Q.
A.
IT WAS NIGHTTIME?
YEAH IT WAS NIGHTTIME ALREADY.
1
18 Q. OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD, IT'S A PRETTY BUSY 1
19 STREET, RIGHT?
20 A. YEAH, I'M GUESSING, YEAH. 1
21 Q. HOW BUSY IS IT?
22 A. NOT AS MUCH. THERE IS LIKE A BUNCH OF CARS
1
23
24
DURING THE DAY.
Q. IT'S A DOUBLE LINED STREET, RIGHT?
1
25 A. YEAH. l
26 Q. IT'S A MAIN ROAD?
27 A. YEAH. 1
28 Q. IT CONNECTS TO THE HIGHWAY?
l
l
r 844
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q.
A.
A LOT OF CARS ON IT?
YEAH.
r
3
4 Q. AT SOME POINT YOU SAID YOU SAW CAROL'S MOM'S
r 5
6
CAR.
A. YEAH, BUT THAT WAS LIKE ON THEIR BLOCK.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
ON THEIR BLOCK?
YEAH.
r 9
10
Q.
FOR A PARTY?
AND SHE INDICATED TO YOU THAT CAROL HAD LEFT
r 11 A. YEAH, SHE SAID THEY LEFT TO A PARTY AND SHE WAS
r 12
13
ASKING ME IF I KNEW WHERE THEY WERE AT, AND I TOLD THEM
THAT THEY CAME THIS WAY, AND SHE SAID, "OH, WELL, THEY
r 14
15
SAID THEY WERE GOING TO A PARTY, SO THEY'RE OVER THERE
THEN."
[ 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER.

THE COURT: IS THERE FURTHER CROSS?
r
17
18 MR. TROCHA: A LITTLE BIT, YOUR HONOR.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
LIKE HOW LITTLE OF A LITTLE BIT?
WE CAN TAKE A BREAK.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
THE MID-MORNING RECESS.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE
PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
r 23
24
LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.
RECONVENE AT 10 MINUTES BEFORE THE HOUR OF 11:00.
WE'LL
[ 25 MR. AGUILAR, I NEED YOU TO BE HERE AT 10

MINUTES BEFORE 11:00. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
r
26
r 28 Ill
r
845
1
l
2 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) 1
3 THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD, PLEASE. THIS
4 IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO 1
5 DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. NO
6 MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. I UNDERSTAND THAT
l
7
8
BEFORE THE COURT WE HAVE MR. GREGORY MENDOZA.
ARE YOU MR. MENDOZA, SIR?
1
9 MR. MENDOZA: YES, SIR. 1
10 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING TO YOU, SIR.
~
I
11 MR. MENDOZA: GOOD MORNING. j
12 THE COURT: YOU'RE IN JUVENILE HALL THESE DAYS?

13 MR. MENDOZA: YES, SIR. 1
14
15
THE COURT:
MR. MENDOZA:
HOW LONG ARE YOU IN FOR?
A YEAR.
1
l
,
16 THE COURT: IS IT LIKE A YEAR COMMITMENT? ARE
17 YOU IN A BREAKING CYCLES PROGRAM?
18 MR. MENDOZA: YEAR COMMITMENT.
19 THE COURT: APRIL 12TH, MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
1
20
21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES, YOUR HONOR.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE YOU COME BACK
TO THIS COURT AS A WITNESS. I'LL HAVE THE JUVENILE
,
23
24
AUTHORITIES PRODUCE YOU. YOU WILL BE ORDERED PRODUCED
BACK IN THIS COURT ONE WEEK FROM TODAY, THAT WILL BE
l
25 APRIL 12, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. SHALL WE MAKE HIM AT 1:30 l
26 SINCE WE HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE COMING AT 9:00?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S FINE. l
28 THE COURT: ADDRESSING THE BAILIFFS, IS THAT
l
,,
~
r 846
r 1 BETTER IF WE SET A TIME CERTAIN FOR HIM OR BETTER TO
r 2
3
TAKE HIM FIRST ON THAT DAY?
THE BAILIFF: I'M NOT SURE IT WAS 9:00 HE WAS
r 4 SCHEDULED TO BE HERE THIS MORNING. HE ARRIVED, I WOULD
r 5
6
ASSUME, ABOUT 10:00. THAT PARTICULAR MOVEMENT IS
EXTREMELY LONG AND CONGESTED. I WOULD KEEP HIM FOR THE
r 7
8
MORNING. HE MAY BE HERE BY 10:00.
HIM HERE BEFORE LUNCH OR
WE COULD TRY TO HAVE
r 9
10
THE COURT: WE'LL DO AN OTP FOR HIM AT 9:00.
IT WILL BE THE GAME PLAN WHEN HE'S HERE, WE'LL PUT HIM
[ 11 ON ON THE NEXT AVAILABLE TIME. SO 9:00, APRIL 12, 2011.
12 MR. MENDOZA, IF FOR SOME REASON SOMETHING
r 13 HAPPENED AND YOU WERE RELEASED BEFORE APRIL 12TH, YOU
r 14
15
ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK TO THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT
48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST
[ 16 BROADWAY, ON APRIL 12, 2011, AT 9:00 A.M. DO YOU

17 UNDERSTAND, SIR?
r 18 MR. MENDOZA: YES, SIR.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
YOU BACK HERE.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. WE'LL SEE
MY THANKS TO THE SHERIFF'S PERSONNEL FOR
r 21
22
GETTING HIM HERE.
WHAT ARE THE OTHER WITNESS CONSIDERATIONS?
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE TWO WITNESSES THAT I HAD
THE WARRANTS HELD, THEY JUST HAPPENED TO BE LATE.
r 25 THE COURT: THEY ARE GOING TO WAIT UNTIL NOON.
r
26 I'M NOT GOING TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS TO ACCOMMODATE THEM
27 WHEN THEY ARE LATE.
r 28 MR. TROCHA: I HAVE ONE WITNESS WHO IS HERE.
r
,
1 WE NEED HIM ORDERED BACK.FOR THE 18TH. HE DOESN'T HAVE
847
,
l
2
3
A WARRANT OUTSTANDING OR ANYTHING.
THE COURT: BRING HIM IN.
,
4
5
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THAT WILL BE 1:30, YOUR HONOR.
GOOD MORNING, SIR. WHAT IS YOUR ,
6
8
NAME, PLEASE.
MR. LOPEZ:
THE COURT:
TOMAS LOPEZ.
TOMAS LOPEZ?
,
9 MR. LOPEZ: YES, SIR. l
10 THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR BIRTHDAY, PLEASE? ,.,_
11 MR. LOPEZ: 11/13/78. j
12 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
13 MR. TROCHA, THE DATE? l
14
15
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
APRIL 18TH AT 1:30.
MR. LOPEZ, YOU'RE UNDER SUBPOENA
1
16 AND COURT ORDER TO BE A WITNESS IN THIS CASE. YOU'RE
1
17 ORDERED TO RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF
1
18
19
20
THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST
BROADWAY IN THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO, ON APRIL THE 18TH,
2011, AT 1:30 IN THE AFTERNOON. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS
,
21 ORDER, SIR?
22 MR. LOPEZ: YES.
1
23
24
THE COURT: APRIL 18, 1:30. IF YOU'RE NOT
PRESENT AT THAT TIME, A WARRANT WILL BE ISSUED FOR YOUR
1
25 ARREST. YOU WILL BE HELD IN CUSTODY UNTIL YOUR l
26 TESTIMONY IS TAKEN. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
27 MR. LOPEZ: YES. l
l
,
r 848
r 1 GOOD DAY TO YOU.
r 2
3
WITH RESPECT TO MR. AGUILAR, HE'S THE GENTLEMAN
THAT WE AT ONE POINT HAD INCARCERATED, WE RELEASED HIM
[ 4 UPON HIS SURRENDER OF A PASSPORT. IT REALLY ISN'T A
5 PASSPORT. IT IS A PASSPORT CARD ISSUED BY THE UNITED
r 6 STATES OF AMERICA. IT IS PASSPORT CARD NO. C03049163.
r 7
8
HE DID, IN FACT, SURRENDER THAT TO THE COURT.
AT THE CONCLUSION OF HIS TESTIMONY, IF IT ENDS
r 9 BEFORE NOON, I'M GOING TO ORDER HIM TO WAIT OUTSIDE THE

10 COURTROOM, AND WE'LL BRING HIM BACK IN AT FIVE MINUTES
r 11 TO 11 AND I WILL RETURN HIS PASSPORT TO HIM -- HIS
r 12
13
PASSPORT CARD TO HIM, UNLESS SOMEBODY HAS AN OBJECTION
TO THAT PROCEDURE.
r 14
15
ANYBODY HAVE AN OBJECTION TO THAT?
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO.
I DON'T WANT TO DO IT IN FRONT OF
r 18 THE JURORS.
r 19
20 MR. AGUILAR.
WE NEED TO CONTINUE WITH THE EXAMINATION OF
LET'S HAVE HIM BROUGHT IN, PLEASE, THEN
r 21
22
WE'LL HAVE THE JURORS BROUGHT IN.
MR. AGUILAR, GOOD MORNING. PLEASE RESUME THE
r 23
24
WITNESS STAND.
r
27 GOOD AFTERNOON. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE
r 28 PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
r
849
l
1 MR. AGUILAR HAS RESUMED THE WITNESS STAND.
l
2 SIR, YOU REMAIN UNDER THE SAME OATH YOU TOOK l
3 THIS MORNING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
4 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 1
5 THE COURT: YES?
7
8
THE COURT:
CROSS-EXAMINE.
THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY
l
l
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
~
11 BY MR. TROCHA: J
12 Q. MR. AGUILAR, BEFORE THE BREAK, YOU TOLD US
13 THAT CAROL'S MOM PICKED YOU UP JUST EAST OF THE PARK,
.l
14
15
CORRECT?
A. RIGHT DOWN ON HER BLOCK ON SAN PASQUAL, I THINK
l
l
,
16 IT'S CALLED.
17 Q. AND YOU SAID SHE ASKED YOU WHERE CAROL, RONALD
18 AND JOSUE WERE.
19 A. YEAH, BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT I WAS WITH THEM.
20 Q. BECAUSE, AS YOU SAID, SHE SAID THESE PEOPLE l
21 TOLD HER THEY WERE GOING TO A PARTY.
22 A. YEAH.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
SO SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEY WERE.
SHE KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO A PARTY.
l
25 Q. SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THE PARTY WAS THOUGH, DID l
26 SHE?
27 A. I THINK SHE DID KNOW. SHE PROBABLY DID KNOW, l
28 BECAUSE SHE LOOKED LIKE SHE KNEW WHERE SHE WAS GOING.
l
l
[
850
r 1 Q. EXCEPT SHE ASKED YOU WHERE THEY WERE.
r 2 A. BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT I WAS WITH THEM.
r 3
4
Q. IF SHE HAD DROPPED THEM OFF, SHE WOULD KNOW
WHERE THEY WERE, DIDN'T SHE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
SHE DIDN'T DROP THEM OFF.
SHE DIDN'T?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
THEY WENT ON THEIR OWN?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YEAH, I THINK THEY DID, YEAH.
THE LAST THING YOU SAID WAS YOU DON'T WANT TO
r 11 COOPERATE WITH THE POLICE IN ANY FASHION. DO YOU
r 12
13
REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
A. YEAH.
r 14
15
Q.
CREAM?
BECAUSE THE POLICE DIDN'T BRING YOU ICE
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO, NOT BECAUSE OF THAT.
BECAUSE THE POLICE DIDN'T TAKE YOU TO LUNCH
r 18 FIRST?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
WE JUST HEARD THAT THE REASON YOU CAN REMEMBER
r 21
22
ALL OF THESE FACTS IS BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED ON THE DAY
YOUR BEST FRIEND WAS MURDERED. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING
r 23
24
THAT?
A. YEAH.
r 25
26
Q. EXCEPT A FEW MINUTES AGO YOU SAID NOW IT'S NOT
CLEAR IN YOUR HEAD, BECAUSE IT'S OVER TWO AND A HALF
r 27 YEARS AGO. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
r 28 A. YEAH.
r
851
l
1 Q. AND ON TOP OF IT, YOU DON'T WANT TO COOPERATE
l
2 WITH THE POLICE, YES? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. IS MR. DOMINGUEZ'S ATTORNEY THE POLICE? l
5 A. NO.
6 Q. YET WE HEARD, TO START THE DAY OFF, YOU HAD TO
l
7
8
GO TO JAIL BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T SHOW UP TO COURT FOR
MR. DOMINGUEZ'S ATTORNEY.
l
9 A. YEAH. l
10
11
Q.
A.
HOW IS THAT COOPERATING?
WELL, I HAD ALREADY CAME THE LAST TIME, AND I
., J
12 HAD TOLD THEM THAT I DON'T WANT TO COME AGAIN, AND

13 THAT'S WHY I DIDN'T COME. 1
14
15
Q.
A.
YET HE'S NOT THE POLICE EITHER.
YEAH, I'M GUESSING HE'S NOT.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
WAS HE MEAN TO YOU?
NO.
l
18 Q. DID HE BE AGGRESSIVE WITH YOU IN ASKING YOU l
19 QUESTIONS?
20 A. NO. 1
21 Q. DID HE MAKE YOU SAY THINGS YOU DIDN'T WANT TO
22 SAY?
1
23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
DID HIS INVESTIGATOR DO ANY OF THESE THINGS?
l
25 A. NO. 1
26 Q. AND YET YOU DIDN'T SHOW UP TO COURT AND HAD TO
27 GO TO JAIL ANYWAY. l
28 A. YEAH.
l
1
r 852
r 1 Q. WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO COOPERATE WITH DOZENS OF
r 2 PEOPLE TRYING TO SOLVE THE MURDER OF YOUR BEST FRIEND?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.
SO YOU'RE JUST GOING TO NOT COOPERATE AT ALL.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. THAT'S WHY.
WOULD YOU CONSIDER YOUR TESTIMONY AND YOUR
r 7
8
DEMEANOR IN COURT TODAY COOPERATING?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
THIS IS YOU COOPERATING?
YES.
L 11 Q. WHAT IS YOU NOT COOPERATING?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NOT COMING.
SO WHEN THE POLICE ARE SHOWING YOU LINEUPS OF
r 14
15
PEOPLE THAT YOU RECOGNIZE AND YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND
YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT YOU DON'T, WOULD THAT BE
r 16
17
COOPERATING?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. THAT IS COOPERATING, GIVING THE POLICE WRONG
r
19 INFORMATION?
20 A. HOW IS IT WRONG?
r 21
22
Q. IF YOU KNOW SOMEBODY AND YOU TELL THE POLICE
YOU DON'T, HOW IS THAT COOPERATING?

~ 23 A. WHAT IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEM AT THAT TIME?
[
24 Q. YOU KNEW OTHER PEOPLE THEY SHOWED YOU.
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YEAH, LIKE ONE PERSON.
LIKE HAPPY, RIGHT?
r 27 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT.
r 28 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE SAME DAY THE POLICE SHOWED
r
853
l
1 YOU THIS LINEUP, THEY SHOWED YOU A PICTURE AND YOU SAID,
l
2
4
"THAT'S HAPPY"?
A. I SAID I THINK I SAID DAVID. AND THEY ASKED
ME IF HIS NAME WAS HAPPY, AND I SAID "I THINK IT'S HIS
,
l
' j
5 NAME."
6 Q. THAT'S ANOTHER GUY ALTOGETHER, THOUGH. THAT
l
1
,,
7 WAS DAVID GUTIERREZ, A WHOLE DIFFERENT LINEUP. DO YOU
8 REMEMBER THAT?
9 A. YEAH, I THINK.
10 Q. AND YOU WERE SHOWN ANOTHER LINEUP WITH A PERSON
11 BY THE NAME OF VICTOR RAMOS IN IT. j
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW VICTOR RAMOS NOW? J
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
BUT YOU DIDN'T KNOW HIM AT THE TIME EITHER?
l
16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU JUST HAPPENED TO MEET THESE PEOPLE AFTER
1
18 THE POLICE CAME AND INTERVIEWED YOU? l
19 A. NO. MY SISTER KNOWS THAT GUY, VICTOR RAMOS.
20 SHE KNOWS HIM AND WOULD TALK TO HIM.
]
21 Q. SO YOUR SISTER KNEW HIM AND YOU WOULD SEE HIM?
l
22
23
A.
Q.
NO, I WOULDN'T SEE HIM, BUT I MET HIM ONE TIME.
OH, SO YOU HAVE SEEN HIM?
, .\
24 A. YEAH.
25 Q. SO WHEN THE POLICE SHOWED YOU A PICTURE SIMILAR l
26 TO THIS ONE IN PEOPLE'S 242 AND YOU COULDN'T PICK VICTOR
l
27
28
RAMOS OUT --
A. I DIDN'T KNOW HIM AT THAT TIME. ,
, j
r 854
r
1 Q. BUT NOW YOU DO?
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q. SIMILARLY, WHEN YOU WERE ASKED OVER THE LAST
TWO YEARS IF YOU KNEW WHO VICTOR RAMOS WAS AND YOU
r 5
6
RELIED THAT YOU DIDN'T --
A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHEN DID YOU MEET HIM?
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
THE SAME TIME YOU MET THE PERSON IN 242?
NO.
r 11 Q. IS THAT COOPERATIVE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I'M GUESSING YEAH.
IT'S COOPERATIVE TO TELL THE POLICE THAT NOW
r 14
15
YOU KNOW SOMEBODY, BUT BACK THEN YOU DIDN'T, AND YOU
DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU MET THEM?
rl 16 A. YEAH.
17 Q. MR. AGUILAR, YOU WERE IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT,
r 18 WERE YOU NOT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH, THE BIG PARK.
NO. YOU WERE IN THE LITTLE PARK WHEN YOUR BEST
r 21
22
FRIEND WAS KILLED, WERE YOU NOT?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU WERE THERE WITH JOSUE.
IN THE BIG PARK WHEN WE WERE HAVING THE CARNE
r 25 ASADA.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
JOSUE WAS IN THE LITTLE PARK.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. HE LEFT WITH CAROL
r 28 AND RONALD TO THEIR HOUSE.
r
855
1 !
1 Q. SO YOU SAY. AND YOU NEVER SAW THEM AGAIN.
,
~
I
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. J
I

I
4 THE WITNESS: NEVER SAW THEM AGAIN.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MOTION TO STRIKE.
6 THE COURT: STRICKEN.
l
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
,.,
I
8 Q. DID YOU SEE HIM AFTER HE LEFT THE BIG PARK?
9 A. NO. 1 J
10 Q. SO HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WASN'T IN THE LITTLE

11 PARK? l
12 A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE HIM.
13 Q. BECAUSE YOU WERE IN THE LITTLE PARK? l
14 A. NO.
l
15
16
Q.
LITTLE PARK?
SO HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF HE WASN'T IN THE
, j
17 A. WHAT DO YOU -- YOU'RE CONFUSING ME RIGHT HERE.
18 Q. IF YOU'RE IN THE BIG PARK -- l
19 A. YEAH, I'M IN THE BIG PARK.
20 Q. -- AND YOU NEVER WENT IN THE LITTLE PARK THE
21 NIGHT YOUR FRIEND WAS KILLED --

22 A. YEAH.
l
23
24 NOT?
Q. -- HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF JOSUE WAS THERE OR
l
25 A. IN THE BIG PARK? l
26 Q. IN THE LITTLE PARK.
27 A. OH, IN THE LITTLE PARK? WELL, I GUESS HE WAS l
28 TELLING ME THAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT HE WAS IN THE
l
l
r 856
r 1 SMALL PARK, AND HE'S TELLING ME HE WASN'T, SO THAT'S WHY
r 2 I'M SAYING HE WASN'T.
r
3 Q. EXCEPT YOU WEREN'T THERE. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW
4 IF HE WAS TELLING YOU THE TRUTH?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
SO THAT I DON'T KNOW RIGHT THERE.
BECAUSE HE WASN'T AT CAROL'S HOUSE.
r 7
8
A. WELL, I'M GUESSING HE WASN'T THERE, BECAUSE HE
LEFT WITH CAROL, AND CAROL'S MOM HAD SEEN HIM RIGHT
r 9
10
THERE WHEN THEY WENT TO HER HOUSE, AND SHE SAID THEY
WENT TO A PARTY.
r 11 Q. EXCEPT AS YOU'VE TOLD US, THE CARNE ASADA ENDED
r 12
13
AROUND 7:00.
A. SEVEN, EIGHT. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS PRETTY
r 14
15
LATE.
Q. THE SHOOTING HAPPENED AROUND 9:20?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS LATE ALREADY.
SO TWO, TWO AND A HALF HOURS PASSED BY, YOU'RE
r 18 JUST HANGING OUT IN THE PARK?

19 A. WELL, THEN I'M GUESSING IT WAS LATER, THEN,
r 20 WHEN THEY LEFT. I DON'T QUITE REMEMBER, BUT I DO
r 21
22
REMEMBER THAT I WAS JUST RIGHT THERE HANGING OUT IN THE
PARK FOR LIKE 30 MINUTES. SO, YEAH, IT WAS PROBABLY
r 23
24
LIKE AROUND EIGHT WHEN THEY LEFT.
Q. AND YOU NEVER SAW JOSUE AGAIN THAT NIGHT,
r 25
26
CORRECT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASKED AND
r 27 ANSWERED.
r 28 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER.
r
f'lm1
1
J
857
1
2 ANYMORE.
THE WITNESS: YEAH, I DIDN'T SEE HIM THAT NIGHT
,
l
J
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. ARE YOU GUESSING, OR YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM? l
5 A. WELL, I SEEN HIM -- I SEEN HIM THAT DAY WHEN WE ~
7
WERE AT THE CARNE ASADA.
SEE HIM NO MORE.
RIGHT AFTER HE LEFT, I DIDN'T
, J
J
8 Q. AND IS THAT A GUESS?
9 A. NO. I KNOW HE LEFT, BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE HIM l
10 ANYMORE.
11 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER. 1
12 THE COURT: THANK YOU. REDIRECT?
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 1
14
l
16 Q. MR. AGUILAR, YOU'VE TESTIFIED AT A PRIOR
l
17 HEARING IN THIS CASE, RIGHT?
18 A. YEAH. 1
19 Q. AT THAT PRIOR HEARING, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS THERE,
20 RIGHT? l
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. AND SO YOU'VE SEEN HIM BEFORE AT THE PRIOR
l
23
24
HEARING ON THAT DATE THAT YOU TESTIFIED, RIGHT?
A. AT A PRIOR HEARING, YEAH.
1
25 Q. WHEN YOU WERE IN COURT, YOU HAD SEEN HIM l
26 BEFORE.
27 A. YEAH. l
28 Q. THAT WAS, WHAT, LIKE FOUR MONTHS AGO? FIVE
l
l
r 858
r 1 MONTHS AGO?
r 2
3
A. PROBABLY, YEAH.
r
l 4
Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE, HAD
YOU EVER SEEN MR. DOMINGUEZ AT THAT POINT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
SO YOU HAD NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE?
r 7
8 THE
A. WELL, I SEEN HIM, BUT WHEN I WAS TALKING TO
WHEN THE POLICE WERE CALLING ME TO GO DOWNTOWN, I
r 9 HADN'T SEEN HIM DURING THAT TIME.
r 10
11 HIM?
Q. HAD YOU EVER MET HIM OR BEEN INTRODUCED TO
r 12
13 STORE.
A. YEAH, ONE TIME I BUMPED INTO HIM IN THE LIQUOR
r 14
15
Q.
A.
BUT IT WAS ONLY ONCE?
YEAH.
r 16
17
Q. ALL RIGHT. MR. AGUILAR, WE'VE GONE OVER THAT
YOU DON'T WANT TO BE HERE TODAY AND YOU HAD TO GIVE YOUR
r 18 PASSPORT
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH.
-- AS COLLATERAL FOR YOUR PRESENCE.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THAT WAS BECAUSE IF YOU DIDN'T, YOU WOULD
r 23
24
HAVE STAYED IN JAIL UNTIL TODAY.
A. YEAH.
r 25 Q. SO THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, WHEN JOSUE
r 26
27
GUTIERREZ LEFT WITH CAROL, DID YOU SEE HIM AFTER THAT
POINT AT ANY TIME?
r 28 A. NO.
r
859
,
l
2 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA? l
l
4
5
6

MAY THIS WITNESS BE
EXCUSED, SUBJECT TO THE RETURN OF HIS PROPERTY? , !
4
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
YES.
ALL RIGHT. MR. AGUILAR, THANK YOU,
l
9 SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. I'LL NEED YOU TO REMAIN l
10 OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM. WHEN WE BREAK AT NOON, IT WILL
11 BE A LITTLE BEFORE NOON, I'LL RETURN YOUR PROPERTY TO l
12 YOU. ALL RIGHT.
13 THE WITNESS: OH, OKAY. l
14
15
THE COURT: DON'T TALK ABOUT THE CASE WITH ANY
OTHER WITNESS UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER, EXCEPT
l
16 INVESTIGATORS.
l
17 THE WITNESS: ALL RIGHT.
18 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU. WE l
19 WILL RESUME, THEN, WITH THE PRESENTATION OF THE
20 PROSECUTION EVIDENCE, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. SO JUMPING l
21 BACK TO THAT STAGE OF THE CASE, I'LL INVITE MR. TROCHA
22 TO CALL HIS NEXT WITNESS.
l
23
24
CALL MARY JANE FLOWERS AT THIS TIME.
THE PEOPLE
l
27 EVIDENCE YOU SHALL GIVE IN THIS MATTER SHALL BE THE l
l
l
r 860
r 1 HELP YOU GOD?
r 2 THE WITNESS: I DO.
r 3
4
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
PLEASE TAKE THE WITNESS STAND.
GOOD MORNING, MA'AM.
r 5
6
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
GOOD MORNING.
r 7
8
THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS MARY JANE FLOWERS,
r 9
10
F-L-0-W-E-R-S.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY

r 11 EXAMINE.
r 12
13
MARY JANE FLOWERS,
r 14
15
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. FLOWERS.
r 19
20
Q.
DOING.
COULD YOU TELL THE JURY WHAT YOU'RE CURRENTLY
r 21
22
A. I'M CURRENTLY NOT EMPLOYED.
THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT.

I'M RETIRED FROM
r 23
24
Q. WHAT DID YOU FORMERLY DO FOR THE SAN DIEGO
POLICE DEPARTMENT?
r 25
26
A. I WORKED IN THE CRIME LABORATORY AS A
CRIMINALIST WORKING ON VARIOUS KINDS OF EVIDENCE.

r 27 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU A CRIMINALIST FOR SAN DIEGO
r 28 P.O. CRIME LAB?
r
861
, J
~
}
1 A. APPROXIMATELY 29 YEARS.
2 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A CRIMINALIST? l
3 A. A CRIMINALIST IS A SCIENTIST WHO APPLIES
4 METHODS OF SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS TO VARIOUS FORMS OF l
5 EVIDENCE. THAT EVIDENCE CAN BE SEROLOGY, BODY FLUIDS,
6 DRUG EVIDENCE, FIREARMS, SOME TRACE EVIDENCE, THAT KIND
l
7
8
OF THING.
Q. WHAT SORT OF EDUCATION, TRAINING OR DEGREES DID
l
9 YOU HAVE TO OBTAIN TO GET YOUR POSITION WITH THE CRIME l
10 LAB?
11 A. HAVE A BACHELOR OF SCIENCE DEGREE IN CHEMISTRY l
12 AND BIOLOGY FROM SAINT MARY COLLEGE IN KANSAS. I'VE
13 BEEN EMPLOYED IN THREE CRIME LABORATORIES. IN EACH OF l
14
15
THOSE LABORATORIES -- TWO WERE IN ARIZONA AND AT THE SAN
DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT TO FINISH MY CAREER -- I WAS
l
16 TRAINED BY JOURNEYMAN CRIMINALISTS WHO WORKED ON VARIOUS
l
17 KIND OF EVIDENCE, WORKED IN THOSE VARIOUS AREAS THAT I
18 TALKED ABOUT -- DRUGS, A LITTLE BIT OF TRACE, l
19 FIREARMS -- AND THEN ALSO ALCOHOL ANALYSIS.
20 I ALSO ATTENDED CLASSES OFFERED IN ARIZONA AND l
21 ALSO IN CALIFORNIA TO LEARN VARIOUS KINDS OF METHODS
22 THAT ARE USED FOR ANALYSIS IN THE CRIME LAB, VARIOUS
l
23
24
DISCIPLINES.
I ALSO WORKED -- THE LAST PLACE I WORKED IN THE
l
25 CRIME LAB IN THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS IN THE l
26 FIREARMS SECTION, AND I TRAINED FOR APPROXIMATELY A YEAR
27 AND A HALF, CLOSE TO TWO YEARS, UNDER A JOURNEYMAN l
28 CRIMINALIST ON VARIOUS ASPECTS OF FIREARMS ANALYSIS.
l
l
r 862
r 1 Q. WHAT IS FIREARMS ANALYSIS?
r 2 A. FIREARMS ANALYSIS INCLUDES A NUMBER OF THINGS.

3 WE FIRE WEAPONS AND DETERMINE WHETHER THEY'RE OPERABLE.
I 4 WE LOOK AT THE PIECES OF EVIDENCE THAT ARE EXPELLED FROM
r 5
6
A FIREARM WHEN IT'S FIRED, THE BULLETS AND THE CARTRIDGE
CASES, IF AVAILABLE, AND LOOK AT THE VARIOUS THINGS THAT
r 7
8
YOU CAN DISCOVER FROM LOOKING AT THOSE ITEMS.
WE WILL RESPOND TO CRIME SCENES AT TIMES TO TRY
r 9
10
AND RECONSTRUCT WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED WHEN A CRIME
OCCURRED AND A FIREARM WAS INVOLVED.
r 11 THAT BASICALLY WRAPS UP EVERYTHING.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
HOW LONG DID YOU WORK IN THE FIREARMS SECTION?
IT WAS ABOUT 13 YEARS.
r 14
15
Q. IN TERMS OF FIREARMS, ARE THERE MULTIPLE TYPES
OF FIREARMS?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DEALING SOLELY WITH HANDGUNS, WHAT TYPES OF
r 18 HANDGUNS ARE THERE?
r 19
20
A. TWO MAIN TYPES OF HANDGUNS. ONE WOULD BE A
REVOLVER, AND HANDGUNS, OF COURSE, HELD IN THE HAND;
r 21
22
HENCE THE NAME. SO THERE'S A GRIP, AND A REVOLVER HAS
THE GRIP, AND THEN IN FRONT OF THE GRIP THERE'S THE
r 23
24
CYLINDER WHICH HOLDS THE CARTRIDGES WHICH ARE FIRED OUT
OF THE GUN. IN FRONT OF THAT IS A BARREL, AND THEN
r 25 THERE'S A TRIGGER BELOW THAT.
r 26
27
SO THE BULLETS THEMSELVES ARE -- ACTUALLY THE
CARTRIDGES ARE ACTUALLY PUT IN THE CYLINDER, AND THEN AS
r 28 IT'S FIRED, THAT CYLINDER REVOLVES AND THE BULLET IS
r
"'1
J
863
l
1 EXPELLED OUT OF THAT BARREL, AND THAT CARTRIDGE CASE
2 STAYS IN THAT CYLINDER UNTIL IT'S MANUALLY TAKEN OUT OF l
3 THERE BY SOMEONE WHO'S SHOOTING.
4 IN A DIFFERENT KIND OF HANDGUN THAT'S A l ~
5 SEMI-AUTOMATIC, IT ALSO HAS A GRIP, AND IN THAT GRIP

6 TYPICALLY IS WHERE YOU WILL SEE A MAGAZINE, AND THAT'S
1 J
7 WHERE THE CARTRIDGES ARE HELD IN THAT KIND OF A FIREARM.

8 AND THOSE CARTRIDGES ARE FED INTO THE CHAMBER
9 OF THAT FIREARM FROM THAT MAGAZINE. AND WHEN IT'S l
10 FIRED, THAT BULLET EXITS THE BARREL, AS IN THE REVOLVER,
11 BUT THE CARTRIDGE CASE IS THROWN OUT OR EXPELLED FROM 1
12 THAT FIREARM AT THAT TIME AND ANOTHER CARTRIDGE IS
13 LOADED AND READY TO FIRE AGAIN IN THE SEMI-AUTOMATIC. 1
14
15
Q. SO IN TERMS OF VISUALLY SPEAKING OF THESE GUNS,
WOULD A HANDGUN LOOK LIKE WHAT YOU'D SEE IN A COWBOY OR
l
16 WESTERN MOVIE?
l
17 THE COURT: A WHAT?
18 MR. TROCHA: A COWBOY-TYPE MOVIE OR WESTERN. l
19 THE COURT: RESTATE, PLEASE.
20 MR. TROCHA: SURE. l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. A REVOLVER, WOULD THIS BE SIMILAR TO LIKE A
l
23
24
COWBOY'S GUN IN A WESTERN-TYPE MOVIE?
A. YES. A SPECIFIC TYPE OF HANDGUN OR REVOLVER IS
1
25 WHAT WE GENERALLY WILL SEE IN A WESTERN TYPE OF MOVIE, l
26 CORRECT.
27 Q. AND DIFFERENTIATING FROM THAT, IS A l
28 SEMI-AUTOMATIC MORE SQUARE, WITH A SLIDE ON TOP?
l
,
r 864
r 1 A. YES, IT DOES HAVE A SLIDE ON TOP, AND THE SLIDE

r
I 2 IS THE PART THAT ACTUALLY MOVES ONCE THAT GUN IS FIRED
r 3
4
TO ALLOW THAT CARTRIDGE CASE TO BE EXPELLED FROM THE
GUN, PICK UP A NEW CARTRIDGE AND LOAD IT INTO THE
5 CHAMBER READY FOR FIRING AGAIN.
r 6 Q. IN TERMS OF ALL WEAPONS OR ALL GUNS, I SHOULD
r 7
8
SAY, INCLUDING HANDGUNS, ARE THERE SPECIFIC TYPES OF
AMMUNITION FOR SPECIFIC MAKES OF GUNS?
r 9 A. NOT NECESSARILY SPECIFIC TYPES OF AMMUNITION
r 10
11
FOR SPECIFIC MAKES, BUT CALIBERWISE, SIZEWISE. SO A
CERTAIN SIZE OF CARTRIDGE WILL FIT IN A CERTAIN CALIBER
12 OR SIZE OF GUN. AND YOU HAVE TO STICK TO THAT, BECAUSE
r 13 THEY JUST WON'T FIT OR WON'T FIRE CORRECTLY UNLESS YOU
r 14
15
DO.
Q. WHAT ARE SOME COMMON CALIBERS FOR HANDGUNS?
r 16 A. TYPICALLY THERE IS THE SMALL CALIBER SEARCHER,

17 .22'S, WHICH PEOPLE KIND OF PLINK WITH JUST FOR TARGET
r 18 PRACTICE. THEN THERE'S THE MEDIUM SIZE CALIBERS, WHICH

19 ARE .38'S, RIGHT AROUND IN THERE, AND THEN THERE'S THE
r 20 LARGE CALIBERS WHICH GET INTO THE .45'S.
r 21
22
Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CALIBERS, WHAT
SPECIFICALLY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
r 23
24
A. A CALIBER REFERS TO THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET
THAT ACTUALLY EXITS THE BARREL. SO A MANUFACTURER WILL
r 25
26
GIVE A CERTAIN CALIBER TO A FIREARM, AND THEY WILL
SPECIFY THAT THAT CALIBER OF CARTRIDGE SHOULD BE FIRED
r 27 IN THAT GUN.
r 28 Q. SO TAKING, FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU HAD A .45
r
865
,
l
1 CALIBER HANDGUN, WHY COULDN'T YOU USE A .22 CALIBER
2 BULLET IN THAT HANDGUN? 1
3 A. AGAIN, IT REFERS TO THE DIAMETER. SO A .45 --
4 THE DIAMETER OF A .45 BULLET IS ABOUT .45 INCHES, AND l
5 THE DIAMETER OF A .22 BULLET IS ABOUT .22 INCHES, SO
6 ABOUT HALF OF THE .45. IT WON'T CHAMBER AND FIT AND
1
7
8
FIRE AT ALL IN A .45 -- THE .22 WON'T.
Q. ONE OF THE WEAPONS YOU MENTIONED WAS CALLED
l
l
9
10
11
12
A .38.
A.
Q.
IS THAT A .38 CALIBER HANDGUN?
THAT'S CORRECT.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR ALSO WITH A TYPE OF AMMUNITION
,
l
13
14
15
AND HANDGUN KNOWN AS A .357 MAGNUM?
A.
Q.
YES, I AM.
ARE THERE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN A .357 MAGNUM
,
16 AND A .38?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT ARE THOSE? 1
19 A. THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET THAT IS LOADED INTO
20 EACH OF THOSE CARTRIDGES IS THE SAME. AND THEN THE l
21 CARTRIDGE ITSELF, WHICH IS THE CARTRIDGE CASE THAT HOLDS
22 THE BULLET, IS A DIFFERENT SIZE. SO THE .357 MAGNUM IS
l
23
24
A LARGER CARTRIDGE CHASE LENGTHWISE THAN THE .38 SPECIAL
CALIBER.
1
25 AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS BECAUSE YOU DO NOT l
26 WANT TO FIRE A .357 MAGNUM IN A .38 SPECIAL GUN. IT'S
27 JUST TOO POWERFUL. l
28 HOWEVER, YOU CAN DO THE REVERSE OF THAT. YOU
l
,
r 866
r 1 CAN FIRE A .38 SPECIAL CARTRIDGE IN A .357 GUN. SO,
r 2 HENCE, THAT DIFFERENCE IS THE LENGTH OF THAT CARTRIDGE
r 3
4
CASE. SAME SIZE BULLET CAN BE LOADED INTO THAT
CARTRIDGE CASE.
r 5
6
Q. IN ALL HANDGUNS AND MOST RIFLES, EXCLUDING
SHOTGUN-TYPE WEAPONS, IS THERE SOMETHING IN THE BARREL
r 7
8
KNOWN AS RIFLING?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. WHAT IS RIFLING?
r
10 A. RIFLING IS SOMETHING THAT IS IMPARTED TO A
11 FIREARM BARREL BY THE FIREARM MANUFACTURER. AND IT HAS
r 12
13
A TWIST, EITHER RIGHT OR LEFT, CLOCKWISE OR
COUNTERCLOCKWISE IN THAT BARREL, AND THAT TWIST IS
r 14
15
IMPARTED BY THE MANUFACTURER IN ORDER TO HAVE THAT
BULLET TRAVEL AND TAKE ON A TWIST, IF IT'S TRAVELING
r 16 THROUGH THE BARREL, IN ORDER TO BETTER HIT THE TARGET
r
17 THAT IT'S BEING AIMED AT.
18 AND THEN, SECONDLY, RIFLING INCLUDES NOT ONLY A
r 19
20
TWIST, BUT A NUMBER OF WHAT WE CALL LANDS AND GROOVES
THAT ARE IMPARTED TO THAT BARREL. SO IT'S AREAS THAT
r 21
22
ARE RAISED IN THE BARREL AND AREAS GROOVED OR HEWED OUT
IN THE BARREL.
r 23
24
THERE CAN ARE BE VARIOUS AMOUNTS OF THOSE.
THERE CAN BE FOUR, THERE CAN BE EIGHT, THERE CAN BE 16.
r 25 GENERALLY IT'S MORE AROUND FOUR TO EIGHT THAT YOU'LL
r 26
27
SEE; MOST OF THE TIME FIVE TO SIX.
SO YOU'VE GOT THAT RIFLING, WHICH INCLUDES THE
r 28 NUMBER OF THOSE LANDS AND GROOVES, AND THEN, SECONDLY,
r
867
,
l
1 THE TWIST.
2 Q. WHEN A BULLET OR PROJECTILE IS FIRED THROUGH A l
3 RIFLE BARREL, IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT ON THE
4 BULLET ITSELF? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
l
7
8
A. THOSE LANDS AND GROOVES WILL MAKE MARKS ON THE
BULLET ITSELF. SO AS IT GOES THROUGH THERE, THAT BARREL
l
9 IS SQUEEZING THAT PROJECTILE, MISSILE, BULLET VERY l
10 TIGHTLY. AND SO THE PART THAT STICKS OUT, WHICH IS THE
11 LAND, WILL ACTUALLY MAKE A GROOVE IN THE BULLET. AND l
12 VICE VERSA, THE PART THAT IS LESS HIGH IN THE BARREL,
l
13
14
15
THAT WILL ACTUALLY STICK OUT ON THE BULLET ITSELF.
SO IT WILL MAKE AN IMPRESSION OF EACH OF THOSE
THINGS THAT'S IN THE BARREL. DEPENDING ON HOW MANY
, J
16 THERE ARE, YOU'LL SEE THAT MANY IMPRESSIONS ON THE

l
17 BULLET, AND YOU WILL SEE EVIDENCE OF THAT TWIST, WHETHER
18 IT'S THE RIGHT OR THE LEFT TWIST. l
19 Q. IN TERMS OF EACH HANDGUN AND THE RIFLING
20 CHARACTERISTICS OF EACH HANDGUN, DO CERTAIN l
21 MANUFACTURERS HAVE SPECIFIC RIFLING PATTERNS?
22 A. THE MANUFACTURERS SHARE THOSE RIFLING PATTERNS.
l
23
24
YOU WILL SEE, LIKE I SAID, A VARIETY.
FIVE, SIX, EIGHT, 16; SOMETIMES FOUR.
YOU WILL SEE
THEY WILL ALSO
l
25 IMPART A TWIST AND THEY WILL ALWAYS GIVE A SPECIFIC l
26 NUMBER.
27 SO DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS -- SAY, THERE MAY BE l
28 10 MANUFACTURERS THAT WILL USE FIVE WITH A RIGHT ~
l
r 868
r 1 TWIST -- FIVE LANDS AND GROOVES WITH A RIGHT TWIST.
r 2
3
AND THERE ARE LISTS THAT THE FBI HAS PREPARED
THAT FIREARMS EXAMINERS CAN QUERY, AND THAT LIST WILL
r 4 TELL YOU WHICH FIREARMS HAVE THOSE RIFLING
r 5
6
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MANUFACTURERS THAT USE THEM OUT
THERE.
r 7
8
Q. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WAS ACCESSIBLE TO YOU
WHEN YOU WERE IN THE FIREARMS SECTION OF SAN DIEGO P.D.?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
NOW EVEN THOUGH, LET'S SAY, SMITH & WESSON HAS
r 11 A .45 CALIBER HANDGUN THAT HAS A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF
r 12
13
TWISTS, LANDS AND GROOVES AND THAT NATURE IN THE BARREL,
ARE ALL .45 CALIBERS MADE BY SMITH & WESSON GOING TO
r 14
15
HAVE THE EXACT SAME LANDS AND GROOVES IN THEIR BARRELS?
A. I WOULD SAY NOT, NO.
r 16
17
Q. THEY MAY HAVE THE SAME PATTERN, BUT IT'S GOING
TO LEAVE A DIFFERENT IMPRESSION ON THE BULLET?
r 18 A. WHAT THE LANDS AND GROOVES ARE IS THEY'RE A
r 19
20
CERTAIN WIDTH. SO IF YOU'VE GOT A .45 AND YOU'VE GOT A
RIGHT TWIST, YOU CAN HAVE SIX LAND IMPRESSIONS IMPARTED
r 21
22
BY THE MANUFACTURER.
OR YOU CAN HAVE A LEFT-HAND TWIST AND EIGHT
.r 23 LAND IMPRESSIONS IMPARTED BY THE MANUFACTURER. SO THEY

24 DO CHANGE THEM OVER TIME, SO YOU WILL SEE SOME VARIETY
r 25 FROM SMITH & WESSON IN THE SAME CALIBER.

26 Q. NOW, IF YOU DO HAVE ONE OF THEIR MAKES AND
r 27 MODELS, ONE SPECIFIC MAKE OF THE GUN, SAME CALIBER, SAME
FIVE RIGHT TWIST, AND YOU HAVE A DOZEN GUNS WITH THAT
r 28
r
869
,
l
1 CHARACTERISTIC, ARE ALL OF THEM GOING TO HAVE IDENTICAL
2 MARKINGS LEFT ON BULLETS FIRED FROM THOSE GUNS? 1
3 A. NO.
4 Q. WHY IS THAT? l
5 A. THE REASON IS THAT THE RIFLING IS IMPARTED BY
6 THE MANUFACTURER INTO THAT BARREL, AND THOSE ARE
1
7
8
INTENDED CHARACTERISTICS.
IT'S A CERTAIN TWIST.
SO THERE'S FIVE OF THOSE AND
THAT'S A CLASS CHARACTERISTIC
l
l
9
10
11
12
THAT'S INTENDED BY THAT MANUFACTURE TO BE THERE.
THEN OVERUSE AND IMPERFECTIONS THAT OCCUR IN
THE BARREL MANUFACTURER, THERE IS LITTLE IMPERFECTIONS
THERE IN USE THAT CAUSE MARKINGS THAT ARE IMPARTED TO
,
l
13
14
15
THAT BULLET THAT THE MANUFACTURER HAS NO CONTROL OVER.
HE PUTS SPECIFIC THINGS THERE, BUT NOT WHAT YOU'D CALL
INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS THAT ARE IN EACH BARREL.
,
16 SO I COULD TAKE THOSE BARRELS AND FIRE A SERIES
l
17 OF BULLETS THROUGH EACH OF THOSE BARRELS AND COMPARE
18 THOSE, AND I WOULD SEE THAT IN THE ONE BARREL THERE ARE 1
19 THINGS THAT I AM ABLE TO LOOK AT AND SAY, "OKAY, THESE
1
20
21
22
ARE FIRED FROM THE SAME BARREL." AND THEN I WOULD LOOK
AT THE NEXT BARREL AND SAY, "OKAY, THESE ARE."
AND IF I WOULD INTERCOMPARE THE ONE TO THE
,
23
24
NEXT, I SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THOSE IF THERE IS ENOUGH INFORMATION THERE TO SAY, "NO,
1
25 THIS BULLET WAS NOT FIRED FROM THIS SECOND GUN." l
26 Q. ARE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE A TYPE OF CALIBER
27 JUST BY LOOKING AT THE EXPENDED BULLET? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 870
r 1 Q. HOW DO YOU DO THAT?
r 2 A. YOU LOOK AT THE DIAMETER. AGAIN, WE TALKED
3 ABOUT THE DIAMETER. THAT'S THE WIDTH OF THE BASE,

r 4 USUALLY, IS WHERE WE'LL MEASURE IT, IF IT'S NOT DEFORMED
r 5
6
IN SOME WAY.
CAN BE HELPFUL.
AND THEN ALSO WE LOOK AT THE WEIGHT.
THE WEIGHTS VARY. BUT DEFINITELY THE

THAT
r 7
8
DIAMETER IS ONE OF THE BIG THINGS WE LOOK AT.
Q. CAN YOU ALSO BY JUST LOOKING AT AN EXPENDED
r 9
10
BULLET DETERMINE A POSSIBLE OR A LIST OF POSSIBLE
MANUFACTURERS OF THE GUN THAT FIRED THAT BULLET?

r 11 A. JUST BY LOOKING AT THE BULLET, I NEED A COUPLE
r 12
13
OF PIECES OF INFORMATION, AND THEN I CAN DO THAT.
WOULD BE THE CALIBER THAT I CAN DETERMINE FROM THAT

THAT
r 14
15
DIAMETER; THEN, SECONDLY, I LOOK AT THOSE RIFLING
CHARACTERISTICS.
r 16
17
WHATEVER THEY ARE IN THAT BULLET,
AND I LOOK AT THE TWIST.

I COUNT THEM
AND THEN I MEASURE THE WIDTH
r 18 OF THOSE LAND AND GROOVE IMPRESSIONS THAT WERE IMPARTED
r 19
20
BY THAT BARREL.
WITH THAT INFORMATION, I GO TO THE LIST
r 21
22
PROVIDED BY THE FBI AND I PUT IN THAT INFORMATION, AND
IT GIVES ME BACK A LIST OF POSSIBLE FIREARMS THAT COULD
r 23
24
HAVE FIRED THAT BULLET THAT'S IN MY POSSESSION.
Q. MOVING ON TO THIS CASE, DID YOU DO ANALYSIS ON
r 25 SEVERAL EXPENDED BULLETS IN RELATION TO THIS CASE?
26 A. YES, I DID.
r 27 Q. HOW MANY BULLETS DID YOU LOOK AT?
r 28 A. I LOOKED AT FOUR.
r
871
,
l
1 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE ITEM NUMBERS OF THOSE
2 BULLETS? 1
3 A. YES. IT WAS ITEM NO. 25, 26, 27 AND 28.
4 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU FOUR EXHIBITS, 209, 210, 1
211 AND 212.
5
6 {PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 209, ENVELOPE CONTAINING
1
7
8
BULLET, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
l
9 Q. I'LL START WITH PEOPLE'S 209. IT APPEARS TO BE l
10 A PLASTIC WRAPPED BROWN ENVELOPE WITH A DARK SILVER OR
11 DARK GRAY BULLET. THE ENVELOPE SAYS ITEM 26. l
12 DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE ONE OF THE PROJECTILES
13 YOU LOOKED AT? l
14
15
A. YES, IT IS.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 210, ENVELOPE CONTAINING
l
~
16 BULLET, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) j
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 210, A SIMILARLY PACKAGED l
19 EXHIBIT WITH A DARK GRAY OR DARK SILVER EXPENDED BULLET,
20 BROWN ENVELOPE STATING ITEM 27, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE l
21 THE ITEM YOU LOOKED AT?
22 A. YES, IT DOES.
1
23
24
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 211, ENVELOPE CONTAINING
BULLET, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 211, SIMILARLY PACKAGED
27 ITEM, DARK GRAY OR DARK SILVER BULLET, WITH A BROWN l
28 ENVELOPE LABELED ITEM 28, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE ONE OF
l
,
r 872
r 1 THE BULLETS YOU LOOKED AT?

r 2 A. YES, IT DOES.
3 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 212, ENVELOPE CONTAINING
r 4 BULLET, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. FINALLY, PEOPLE'S 212, SIMILARLY PACKAGED ITEM,
r 7
8
A LIGHTER SILVER THAN THE OTHER THREE, OR DARK GRAY -- A
LIGHTER GRAY BULLET, LABELED ITEM 25 ON THE BROWN
r 9 ENVELOPE, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE A FOURTH PROJECTILE YOU

10 LOOKED AT?
r 11 A. YES, I DID.
r 12
13
Q.
PROJECTILES?
HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT ANALYZING THESE FOUR
r 14
15
A. I RECEIVED THEM FROM THE PROPERTY ROOM AT THE
POLICE DEPARTMENT AND DOCUMENT THE DAY I RECEIVE THEM,
r 16
17
THE CONDITION IN WHICH THEY ARE PACKAGED AND SEALED --
ALWAYS HAS TO BE SEALED BEFORE WE BRING IT UP TO THE
r 18 LABORATORY.
r 19
20
THEN MARK EACH OF THOSE PACKAGES WITH MY
INITIALS, THE CASE NUMBER UNDER WHICH I'M WORKING IT AT
r 21
22
THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND ALSO THE DATE. AND THEN
OPENED EACH ONE OF THOSE PACKAGES SEPARATELY, TOOK
r 23
24
PICTURES AND DESCRIBED WHAT WAS IN EACH OF THOSE
PACKAGES.
r 25 WEIGHED EACH OF THOSE PROJECTILES, MEASURED THE
r 26
27
DIAMETER OF EACH OF THEM, COUNTED THE LANDS AND GROOVES
THAT WERE IMPARTED FROM THE BARREL OF EACH, AND ALSO
r 28 LOOKED AT THE TWIST OF EACH.
r
873
,
l
1 AND THEN MEASURED THE WIDTHS OF THOSE LANDS AND
2 GROOVES THAT WERE AROUND THE BULLET AND TOOK THAT l
3 INFORMATION AND PUT IT INTO THAT LIST PROVIDED BY THE
4 FBI AND ASKED, FOR THAT QUERY, WHAT GUNS COULD POSSIBLY l
5 HAVE FIRED THESE.
6 I ALSO TOOK EACH OF THESE AND COMPARED THEM TO
1
7
8
EACH OTHER TO LOOK AT, WHAT I TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, THE
STRIA, THE INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS THAT ARE IMPARTED
l
l
9
10
11
TO THESE BULLETS BY THE BARREL THROUGH WHICH THEY WERE
FIRED.
UNFORTUNATELY, IN THIS CASE, THESE BULLETS WERE
,
12 SOMEWHAT DAMAGED. ONE WAS A DIFFERENT CONSTRUCTION THAN
1
13
14
15
THE OTHER THREE, AND THE THREE OF THEM THAT WERE SIMILAR
DID NOT TAKE THE STRIA FROM THE BARREL VERY WELL AT ALL,
SO THERE WASN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME TO LOOK AT AND
,
16
17
SAY, "YES, THESE WERE FIRED FROM THE SAME GUN," OR, "NO,
THEY WERE NOT FIRED FROM THE SAME GUN."
1
18 MY CONCLUSION FROM INTERCOMPARING THESE FOUR 1
19 BULLETS TO EACH OTHER IS THAT THEY WERE INCONCLUSIVE.
20 Q. LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING, THOUGH. l
21 WHAT CALIBER ARE THESE FOUR BULLETS.
22 A. THEY ARE .38 SPECIAL/.357 MAGNUM. AND THAT'S A
1
23
24
SLASH, BECAUSE I SAID THAT SIZE OF BULLET CAN BE LOADED
INTO EACH OF THOSE CARTRIDGE CASES.
1
25 Q. FROM THE STRIA AND THE LANDS AND GROOVES ON THE l
26 BULLET, WHAT ARE THE POSSIBLE MANUFACTURERS THAT COULD
27 HAVE FIRED THOSE FOUR BULLETS? l
28 A. I'M GOING TO REFER TO MY REPORT.
l
,
r 874
[
r 3
4 ONES.
I LISTED SIX, AND THESE ARE THE MOST COMMON
THERE WERE A FEW MORE ON THE LIST THAT WERE
r 5
6
GENERATED, THESE ARE THE MOST COMMON ONES THAT CAME BACK
FROM THE FBI LIST. IT'S ARMINIUS, BERGO, CHARTER ARMS,
r 7
8
LIBERTY ARMS, R.G INDUSTRIES, AND ROHM, R-0-H-M.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9
10
Q.
HANDGUNS?
AND THESE WOULD ALL EITHER BE .38 OR .357
r 11 THE COURT: ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE
r 12
13
MANUFACTURERS OF THE AMMUNITION OR OF THE WEAPONS FROM
WHICH THEY CAME?
r 14
15 YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: THAT WOULD BE THE WEAPON ITSELF,
r 16
17
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU.
r 18 Q. WHICH BRINGS UP A QUESTION. COULD YOU
r 19
20
DETERMINE THE MANUFACTURER OF THE AMMUNITION JUST BY
LOOKING AT THE BULLET ITSELF?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY NOT?
r 23
24
A.
THE BULLETS.
THE DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS WILL SHARE SOME OF
YOU KNOW, YOU MAY SEE A SMITH & WESSON OR
r 25 A DIFFERENT MANUFACTURER MAKE BULLETS -- OR MAKE
r 26
27
CARTRIDGES AND USE DIFFERENT BULLETS IN THEM.
SAME MANUFACTURER YOU WILL SEE A VARIETY OF BULLETS.
IN THE
r 28 AND SO I CAN, AND IN MY WORK I DID, LOOK AT
r
~
J
875
l
1 SOME BULLETS AND THEN COMPARED THEM TO A WHOLE INVENTORY
2 WE HAVE OF KNOWN BULLETS FROM KNOWN MANUFACTURERS. AT 1
3 TIMES I CAN GIVE AN IDEA OF WHO MAY HAVE MANUFACTURED
4 THAT, BUT IN THIS CASE I REALLY DIDN'T HAVE THAT 1
5
6
INFORMATION.
Q. IN TERMS OF WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
l
~
7 BULLETS IN THIS CASE, WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THE PART
J
8 THAT COMES OUT OF THE GUN, CORRECT?
9
10
11
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
IN THE, I GUESS, GENERIC BULLET, SOME MAY
CONSIDER IT TO BE THE PROJECTILE AS WELL AS THE CASING
,
l
1
12 THAT HOLDS THE POWDER?

13 A. THAT MAY BE. HOWEVER, TECHNICALLY THAT'S l
14
15
CALLED THE CARTRIDGE. THE CARTRIDGE IS THE CASE THAT
HOLDS THE POWDER AND HOLDS THE BULLET BEFORE IT'S FIRED.
1
16 THAT'S THE CARTRIDGE.
1
17 Q. IF YOU HAD A WHOLE CARTRIDGE WITH THE CASING
18 AND BULLET ATTACHED TO IT, IN THAT SITUATION YOU 1
19 POSSIBLY COULD FIND THE MANUFACTURER OF THE CARTRIDGE;
20 WOULD THAT BE CORRECT? l
22 Q. IS THAT BECAUSE THERE'S INFORMATION STAMPED ON
l
23
24
THE BASE OF THE CASING?
A. THAT'S CORRECT. GENERALLY MANUFACTURERS WILL
1
25 PUT SOME KIND OF A DESIGNATION, WHETHER IT'S NUMBERS, l
26 LETTERS, A NAME, AND THEN OFTENTIMES THEY WILL ALSO
27 IMPART THE CALIBER OF THAT SPECIFIC PIECE OF CARTRIDGE l
28 OR THAT SPECIFIC CARTRIDGE ON THAT SAME BASE.
l
l
r 876
[
1 Q. THE SAME, THOUGH, IS NOT DONE FOR THE BASE OF
r 2 THE PROJECTILE OF THE BULLET ITSELF.
r
4 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY HANDGUNS RECOVERED AS PART OF
r 5
6
THIS CASE TO COMPARE THE FOUR PROJECTILES TO?
A. NO, I DID NOT.
r 7
8
Q. SO IN YOUR ANALYSIS, YOU COMPARED THE FOUR
PROJECTILES TO EACH OTHER?
r 10
11
Q. YOUR CONCLUSIONS WERE THAT IT WAS INCONCLUSIVE
THAT THEY WERE FIRED BY THE SAME GUN?
r 12
13
A. THAT'S CORRECT, INCONCLUSIVE THAT THEY WERE
FIRED BY THE SAME GUN OR NOT FIRED BY THE SAME GUN.
r 14
15
Q. NOW, DID THESE FOUR PROJECTILES, THOUGH, SHARE
COMMON CHARACTERISTICS WITH EACH OTHER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, THEY DID.
WHAT ARE THE COMMON CHARACTERISTICS?
r 18 A. THE CHARACTERISTICS ARE THAT RIFLING
r 19
20
INFORMATION, AND THAT WAS THAT THERE WERE EIGHT LANDS
AND GROOVES IMPARTED BY THE MANUFACTURER OF THE FIREARM
r 21
22
THAT FIRED THAT BULLET, AND IT WAS A RIGHT-HAND TWIST.
Q. AND LASTLY, MS. FLOWERS, WERE THERE ANY
r 23
24
PROJECTILES EXCUSE ME -- ANY CASINGS TO COMPARE THESE
PROJECTILES TO AS WELL?
r 25 A. NO.
r
26 Q. SO ALL YOU HAD WERE THE FOUR BULLETS IN FRONT
27 OF YOU AS WELL AS YOUR MICROSCOPE AND THE FBI MANUALS
r 28 AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE TO ASSIST YOU IN YOUR
r
877
,
l
1
2
3
COMPARISON.
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.
,
4 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, THANK YOU. 1
l
7
CROSS-EXAMINATION
l
9 Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. FLOWERS. 1
10 A. GOOD MORNING.
11 Q. MS. FLOWERS, LET ME GIVE YOU JUST A BRIEF 1
12 HYPOTHETICAL. ~
13 IF THERE IS A SHOOTING CRIME SCENE AND NO SHELL J
14
15
CASINGS ARE FOUND AT THE SCENE, ONLY BULLETS, AS FAR AS
WHETHER A REVOLVER OR AN AUTOMATIC WAS USED, WHAT DOES
1
16
17
THAT INDICATE?
A. THERE IS SOME INDICATION THAT IT WAS MORE
1
18 LIKELY A REVOLVER, BECAUSE, AS I EXPLAINED, THOSE l
19 CARTRIDGE CASES IN A REVOLVER STAY IN THE REVOLVER UNTIL
20 SOMEONE TAKES THEM OUT, WHEREAS A SEMI-AUTOMATIC GUN l
21 WILL ACTUALLY EJECT THOSE.
22 AND THE OTHER SCENARIO OF THAT IS, OF COURSE,
l
23
24
SOMEONE COULD PICK UP WHAT WAS EJECTED.
Q. SO ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS IF AN
1
25 AUTOMATIC IS USED, A BULLET COMES OUT OF THE FRONT OF l
26 THE GUN AND SHELL CASINGS COME OUT OF THE BACK.
27 A. AN AUTOMATIC OR A SEMI-AUTOMATIC. I THINK WE l
28 WERE TALKING ABOUT SEMI-AUTOMATIC EARLIER.
l
l
r 878
r 1 Q. IF THERE ARE SHELL CASINGS ON THE GROUND, MORE
r 2 LIKELY IT'S AN AUTOMATIC OR A SEMI-AUTOMATIC?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THAT WOULD BE MORE LIKELY, THAT'S CORRECT.
IF THERE ARE NO SHELL CASINGS, SANS THE
r 5
6
POSSIBILITY THAT THE SHOOTER WALKED AROUND AND PICKED UP
ALL THE SHELL CASINGS WHEN HE WAS DONE, IT WAS PROBABLY
r 7
8
A REVOLVER?
A. MORE CONSISTENT WITH A REVOLVER, THAT'S
r 9 CORRECT.
10
r
Q. IN THIS CASE YOU WERE NOT GIVEN ANY SHELL
11 CASINGS TO EXAMINE; IS THAT CORRECT?
l 13 Q. IN A CASE WHERE THERE ARE SHELL CASINGS, THAT
r 14
15
WOULD NORMALLY BE PART OF YOUR EXAMINATION, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 16 Q.
A.
A HANDGUN OR REVOLVER USES GUNPOWDER, RIGHT?
r
17 WELL, THE CARTRIDGE ITSELF ALL CARTRIDGES
18 HAVE SOME KIND OF GUNPOWDER, YES, THAT ALLOWS IT TO BE
r 19
20
FIRED.
Q. IT ALSO USES SOMETHING CALLED PRIMER, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
WHAT IS PRIMER?
r 23
24
A. PRIMER IS WHAT'S INCLUDED IN A LITTLE PRIMER
POCKET THAT GOES AT THE BASE OF THE CARTRIDGE CASE, AND
r 25 THAT'S WHAT THE FIRING PIN IS PART OF A FIREARM. AND
r 26
27
THE FIRING PIN HITS THAT PRIMER AND STARTS AN EXPLOSIVE
REACTION THAT THEN LIGHTS THE POWDER THAT'S IN THAT
r 28 CARTRIDGE CASE AND ALLOWS THAT TO EVENTUALLY EXPAND SO
r
879
,
l
1 MUCH THAT IT FIRES A BULLET OUT OF THE BARREL.
2 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD THE TERM "GUNSHOT RESIDUE"? 1
3 A. YES, I HAVE.
4 Q. WHAT IS GUNSHOT RESIDUE? 1
A. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF KINDS OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE
5
6 THAT WE LOOK AT THE LAB. ONE IS A GUNSHOT RESIDUE THAT
1
7
8
CAN OCCUR ON SOMEONE'S HAND WHEN THEY FIRE A WEAPON.
AND, SECONDLY, THERE'S GUNSHOT RESIDUE THAT'S
l
1
9
10
11
EXPELLED FROM THE END OF A BARREL, AND DEPENDING ON HOW
CLOSE THE TARGET IS TO THE END OF THAT BARREL, YOU MAY
SEE GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON THAT TARGET.
,
12 IF THERE IS CLOTHING THAT'S FAIRLY CLOSE OR A
1
13
14
15
WALL THAT'S FAIRLY CLOSE, YOU MAY SEE SOME POWDER AND
OTHER LEAD TRANSFER THAT WILL OCCUR ONTO THAT WALL WHEN
THAT BULLET GOES AND SOME OF THAT GUNPOWDER IS EXPELLED
,
16
17
FROM THAT BARREL.
SO THERE IS TWO KINDS: SOMETHING YOU MIGHT SEE
1
18 ON THE HAND AND SOMETHING YOU MIGHT SEE ON A TARGET. 1
19 Q. THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE, THAT'S NOT GUNPOWDER,
20 THAT'S PRIMER, CORRECT? l
21 A. I BELIEVE FOR THE MOST PART, YES, THAT'S TRUE.
22 NOW, I AM NOT A GUNSHOT RESIDUE EXPERT ON THE HAND
l
23
24
ANALYSIS OF THE PRIMER THAT IS MOSTLY SEEN ON THE HAND,
SO THAT'S OUT OF MY EXPERTISE. I DON'T DO THAT KIND OF
l
25 ANALYSIS. l
26 Q. GIVEN THAT YOU'RE NOT AN EXPERT ON IDENTIFYING
27 WHETHER GUNSHOT RESIDUE IS PRESENT ON A SUBSTANCE, TO l
28 YOUR KNOWLEDGE, THE SAN DIEGO CRIME LAB, AT LEAST WHEN
l
l
r 880
r 1 YOU WORKED THERE, DO HAVE EXPERTS WHO DO THAT KIND OF
r 2 THING, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THEY DO. THAT'S CORRECT.
AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE -- OR LET ME ASK
r 5
6
YOU THIS: IF WE HAD TO TAKE AN AUTOMATIC OR A REVOLVER,
WOULD A REVOLVER BE DESCRIBED AS MORE DIRTY WHEN FIRING
r 7
8
IT?
A. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "DIRTY,"
r 9
10
BUT IN A REVOLVER YOU HAVE A CYLINDER, AND YOU HAVE A
BARREL IN FRONT OF IT, AND THERE'S A GAP BEHIND THAT

r 11 CYLINDER AND IN FRONT OF THAT CYLINDER.
12 SO YOU CAN HAVE MORE THINGS EXPELLED IN THAT

[ 13 AREA AS COMPARED TO A SEMI-AUTOMATIC, BECAUSE IN A
r 14
15
SEMI-AUTOMATIC HANDGUN YOU HAVE A CLOSED CHAMBER, AND
THERE'S -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S SPACE AROUND THAT CLOSED
r 16 CHAMBER.
BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE AS MUCH OPEN AREA WHERE
r
17
18 THINGS CAN BE EXPELLED AS A REVOLVER TYPICALLY. AND,
r 19
20
AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON THE GUN. IF IT IS A SUPER POOR
MADE GUN THAT DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF TIGHTNESS IN ITS
r 21
22
SPECIFICATIONS AND STUFF, YOU CAN HAVE MORE LEAKAGE IN A
SEMI-AUTOMATIC ALSO. IT JUST DEPENDS ON GUN TO GUN.
r 23
24
Q. GIVEN THAT IT DOES DEPEND FROM GUN TO GUN,
GENERALLY SPEAKING, AN AUTOMATIC OR A SEMI-AUTOMATIC IS
r 25 MORE ENCLOSED, CORRECT?
r
26 A. GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT'S CORRECT.
27 Q. AND A REVOLVER HAS GOT MORE OPENINGS TO THE
r 28 INTERNAL WORKINGS OF IT.
r
881
,
l
1 A. NOT SO MUCH THE INTERNAL WORKINGS, BUT THE
2 SPACES THAT ARE IN A REVOLVER OCCUR, SAY, MORE OFTEN. 1
3 THERE IS SOME IN FRONT OF THE CYLINDER, LIKE I SAID,
4 SOME IN BACK OF THE CYLINDER. l
5 Q. SO YOU EXPECT WHEN YOU FIRE A REVOLVER THAT
6 MORE GUNSHOT RESIDUE WOULD BE SPEWED FROM IT, CORRECT?
l
7
8
A. I WOULD SAY THAT'S PROBABLY TRUE. I'VE NOT
ACTUALLY DONE EXPERIMENTS THAT PROVE THAT OR DISPROVE
1
9 IT, SO IT WOULD BE BETTER ASKED OF SOMEONE WHO DOES THAT 1
10 KIND OF TESTING WITH THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON THE HANDS.
11 Q. THANK YOU. 1
12 THE BULLETS YOU EXAMINED, AFTER YOUR
l
13
14
15
EXAMINATION OF THEM, YOUR OPINION WAS IT WAS
INCONCLUSIVE AS TO WHETHER THEY WERE FIRED FROM THE SAME
GUN, CORRECT?
,
16
17
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
SO IT'S A POSSIBILITY THAT THEY WERE FIRED FROM
1
18 TWO DIFFERENT GUNS, RIGHT? l
19 A. IT IS A POSSIBILITY, THAT'S CORRECT.
20 Q. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, MS. FLOWERS, DID ANY l
21 DETECTIVES EVER GIVE YOU A GUN TO COMPARE TO THE
22 BULLETS?
l
23
24
A. NOT TO ME SPECIFICALLY.
ONE TO ANOTHER ANALYST.
THEY COULD HAVE GIVEN
BUT TO ME SPECIFICALLY, NO.
l
25 Q. SO YOU NEVER SAT DOWN WITH A GUN AND THESE l
26 BULLETS AND TRIED TO DETERMINE WHETHER THOSE BULLETS
27 CAME FROM THIS GUN? l
28 A. THAT'S CORRECT, I DID NOT.
l
1
r 882
r 2 THE COURT: REDIRECT?
r
4 THE COURT: MA'AM, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
5 THE RESIDUE ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO REVOLVERS, WERE YOU
r 6 SPEAKING OF THE RESIDUE THAT ESCAPES FROM THE GUN AS
r( 7 OPPOSED TO THAT WHICH IS GOING FORWARD WITH THE

8 PROJECTILE?
r 9 THE WITNESS: THE RESIDUE THAT GENERALLY IS
r 10
11
FOUND ON THE HANDS DEFINITELY ESCAPES FROM THE GUN, BUT
IT ESCAPES MORE FROM THE REAR PART OF THE GUN RATHER
r
i
\
12 THAN THE PART OF THE GUN WHERE THE BARREL ENDS.
r 14
15
ANY QUESTIONS?
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO, THANK YOU.
MAY MS. FLOWERS BE EXCUSED?
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
YES.
MS. FLOWERS, THANK YOU FOR
r 21 ATTENDING, MA'AM.
l
22 MR. TROCHA.
r 23
24
CALL DETECTIVE ANGELICA NAVARRO.
THE PEOPLE
r 25
26
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
YOU MAY.

r
r
883
,
1
1
2
HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
I DO.
PLEASE TAKE THE WITNESS STAND.
,
3
1
4
5
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
GOOD MORNING, MA'AM.
COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL ,
,
,
7 THE WITNESS: ANGELICA NAVARRO-MORAN,
8 N-A-V-A-R-R-0 HYPHEN M-0-R-A-N.
9 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY 1
10 EXAMINE.
1
11
12
ANGELICA NAVARRO-MORAN, ,
13
14
15
DIRECT EXAMINATION
, J
1
,
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE.
18 A. GOOD MORNING.
19 Q. YOU'RE A DETECTIVE WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
20 DEPARTMENT? l
21 A.
22 Q.
I AM.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE?

l
23
24
A.
Q.
THREE YEARS.
AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A POLICE OFFICER
l
25 WITH THE SAN DIEGO P.O.? l
26 A. IT WILL BE 14 YEARS IN AUGUST.
27 Q. WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT? l
28 A. I'M CURRENTLY ASSIGNED TO THE HOMICIDE UNIT.
l
l
r 884
r 1 Q. WAS THIS YOUR SAME ASSIGNMENT BACK IN SEPTEMBER
r 2 2008?
r
3 A. NO. I WAS ONLY FILLING IN AT THE TIME OF THIS
4 INCIDENT.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A FILL-IN DETECTIVE?
IF AN ASSIGNED DETECTIVE THAT IS ASSIGNED TO A
r 7
8
PARTICULAR UNIT -- IF THEY TAKE A LEAVE, VACATION, THEN
WE ARE RELIEF FOR THEM.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT IN SEPTEMBER 2008?
SEX CRIMES.
r 11 Q. GOING BACK TO SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, WERE YOU
r 12
13
ASSISTING THE HOMICIDE TEAM OR A HOMICIDE TEAM IN AN
INVESTIGATION IN OCEAN VIEW PARK?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I WAS.
WHO WAS THE VICTIM IN THAT CASE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
LOPEZ.
MOISES LOPEZ?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER, YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE
FLUENT IN ENGLISH, CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
ARE YOU FLUENT IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
SPANISH.
DID YOU GROW UP SPEAKING SPANISH OR WAS THIS A
r 25 LEARNED LANGUAGE, SECOND?
r
26 A. I GREW UP SPEAKING SPANISH. MOST OF MY
27 MOTHER'S FAMILY AND MY MOTHER SPEAK SPANISH.
r 28 Q. THE NIGHT OF THE INVESTIGATION AND THE
r
885
,
l
1 SUBSEQUENT DAYS THAT FOLLOWED, DID YOU HAVE AN
1
2
3
4
OPPORTUNITY TO INTERVIEW SEVERAL WITNESSES TO THAT
EVENT?
A. YES.
,
WAS ONE OF THOSE WITNESSES JESSICA LOPEZ?
5
6
Q.
A. YES.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS THE DATE YOU INTERVIEWED HER?
IT WAS THE DATE OF THE INCIDENT.
l
9 Q. WAS THIS EARLY MORNING HOURS? 1
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT WAS JESSICA LOPEZ'S DEMEANOR WHEN YOU 1
12 INTERVIEWED HER?
13 A. SHE WAS NERVOUS. 1
14
15
Q.
SPANISH?
WAS THIS INTERVIEW CONDUCTED IN ENGLISH OR
1
16
17
A. IT WAS CONDUCTED IN SPANISH.
1
Q. WHY WAS IT IN CONDUCTED IN SPANISH?
18 A. SHE PREFERRED IT THAT WAY. 1
19 Q. DID MS. JESSICA LOPEZ INDICATE SHE HAD
20 WITNESSED ANYTHING IN RELATION TO A SHOOTING IN OCEAN l
21 VIEW PARK?
l
23
24
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
SHE DID.
1
25 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
26 Q. WHAT DID SHE TELL YOU SHE WITNESSED?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY. l
28 THE COURT: OFFERED UNDER SECTION 1235?
l
l
r 886
r 1 MR. TROCHA: YES, AS WELL AS PAST RECOLLECTION
r 2 RECORDED BASED ON HER PROFESSED MEMORY RECALL.
r
3 THE COURT: ONE MOMENT, PLEASE.
4 THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. I'LL ALLOW THE
5
r 6
TESTIMONY TO THE EXTENT THAT IT EITHER DEALS WITH
MATTERS THAT WOULD BE INCONSISTENT WITH HER EARLIER
r 7
8
TESTIMONY, OR MATTERS AS TO WHICH SHE DID NOT HAVE
RECOLLECTION AND THIS OFFICER TOOK THE STATEMENT.
r 9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO

10 MAKE THIS, IN LIEU OF OBJECTING TO EVERY QUESTION, A
r 11 CONTINUING OBJECTION THROUGHOUT THE TESTIMONY.
r 12
13
YOU MAY INQUIRE.
SO NOTED.
r 14
15
MR. TROCHA:
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 16
17
Q. DETECTIVE NAVARRO, WHAT DID JESSICA LOPEZ TELL
YOU SHE WITNESSED IN THE PARK THAT EVENING?
r 18 A. SHE TOLD ME THAT HER MOTHER WENT OUTSIDE TO
r 19
20
TAKE OUT THE TRASH AND HAD HEARD AN ARGUMENT IN THE PARK
AND NOTIFIED HER OF IT, AND THAT SHE AND HER MOTHER HAD
r 21
22
WITNESSED A FIGHT, A MALE BEATING ANOTHER ACROSS THE
STREET IN THE PARK.
r 23
24
Q. NOW, DID SHE SAY, WHEN SHE FIRST SAW THIS
BEATING, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED IN THE BEATING?
r 25 A. INITIALLY, THERE WAS ONE.
r 26
27
Q. WAS SHE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A DESCRIPTION OF THE
PERSON DOING THE BEATING?
28 A. IT WAS A MALE WEARING DARK CLOTHING.
r
r
L
887
l
l
1 Q. ANYTHING PECULIAR? WAS HE OVERLY HEAVY? VERY
2 TALL? VERY SHORT? THINGS OF THAT NATURE. 1
3 A. NO. HE WAS SHORTER THAN ME.
4 Q. I'M SORRY? 1
5
6
A.
Q.
THIN.
WEARING DARK CLOTHING?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
DID SHE GIVE YOU A DESCRIPTION OF HIS HAIR?
l
9 A. I DON'T RECALL. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT MY 1
10 NOTE.
11 Q. IF IT WOULD HELP REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION -- 1
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR REPORT IN FRONT OF 1
14
15
YOU?
A. I DO.
l
16
17
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
YOU MAY.
SHE DESCRIBED HIM NOT TO BE
1
18 EITHER AFRICAN-AMERICAN OR WHITE, BUT BELIEVED HE COULD l
19 BE HISPANIC. SHE DESCRIBED HIM TO BE ABOUT FIVE-SIX,
20 MEDIUM BUILD, WEARING A DARK-COLORED PLAIN T-SHIRT. l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. NOW, IN TERMS OF WHAT HE WAS DOING IN THE
l
23
24
BEATING, DID SHE GIVE YOU SPECIFICS AS TO POSITIONING
AND TYPE OF FORCE BEING USED?
1
25 A. THAT THE SUSPECT WAS ON TOP OF THE VICTIM AND l
26 WAS PUNCHING HIM.
27 Q. DID SHE REFER TO THE VICTIM IN ANY WAY SUCH AS l
28 A DESCRIPTION OF AGE OR --
l
l
r 888
r 1 A. HE WAS A BOY.
r 2 Q. HOW LONG DID SHE SAY THIS INITIAL BEATING
r 3
4
CONTINUED?
A. I BELIEVE SHE SAID MINUTES, BUT TO GIVE AN
r 5
6
EXACT ANSWER, I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES.
MR. TROCHA: IF IT WOULD HELP REFRESH YOUR
r 7
8
RECOLLECTION
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
r 9
10
THE WITNESS: FOR ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.
WAS BEING BEATEN WITH FISTS.
AND HE
r 11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WAS THIS JUST ONE ON ONE AT THE SAME TIME?
IN THE BEGINNING.
r 14
15 A.
WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
AGAIN, I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH MY NOTES TO
r 16
17
GIVE YOU SEQUENTIAL ORDER.
Q. IF YOU COULD, TAKE A MOMENT JUST TO READ
r 18 THROUGH, AND THEN WHEN YOU'RE DONE, LOOK UP.
r 19
20
A. THE MALE SHE DESCRIBED WEARING THE DARK SHIRT
WAS BEATING HIM WITH HIS FISTS, AND SHE HEARD THAT MALE
r 21
22
YELL, "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU." SHE THEN RAN
MOTHER TOLD HER TO CALL THE. POLICE.
HER
SHE RAN TO THE BACK
r 23
24
ROOM, AND HER MOTHER THEN TOLD HER THAT THERE WAS TWO
MORE INDIVIDUALS THAT CAME.
r 25
26
Q. AT THAT TIME DID JESSICA LOPEZ RETURN TO WATCH
THE EVENTS IN THE PARK?
r 27 A. AFTER SHE MADE THE PHONE CALL TO 911.
r 28 Q. WHAT DID SHE TELL YOU SHE SAW AFTER COMING BACK
r
889
,
1
1 TO WATCH THE EVENTS IN THE PARK?
2 A. SHE SAW SOME INDIVIDUALS STANDING ON THE SIDE 1
3 OF THE FENCE LINE NEAR -- IT WAS LIKE A DIRT ALLEY.
4 STANDING NEXT, A GROUP OF MALES THERE. AND SHE THEN SAW 1
THE MALE DESCRIBED AS WEARING THE DARK CLOTHING WALK UP
5
l
6
8
TO THE VICTIM AND PULL SOMETHING FROM HIS SIDE, AND THEN
SHE HEARD GUNFIRE.
Q. IN TERMS OF THE BEATING, DID SHE EVER SEE
,
9 MULTIPLE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE BEATING? l
10 A. I DON'T BELIEVE SHE DID.
11 Q. IN TERMS OF THIS CONVERSATION OVER BY THE l
12 FENCE, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED IN THIS
13 CONVERSATION? 1
14
15
A. THERE WERE SEVERAL, BUT SHE COULDN'T GIVE ME AN
EXACT NUMBER. BUT I BELIEVE THERE WERE AT LEAST TWO, A
l
16
17
MALE WITH A WHITE SHIRT AND A MALE WITH A DARK SHIRT.
Q. SO SHE WAS ABLE TO GIVE A DESCRIPTION OF AT
l
18 LEAST ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS CONVERSATION? 1
19 A. THE MALE WITH THE DARK SHIRT SHE BELIEVES IS
20 THE SAME ONE THAT HAD BEATEN THE BOY -- WAS INITIALLY l
21 BEATING ON THE VICTIM.
1
22
23
24
Q. AND HE WAS TALKING TO ONE OTHER PERSON IN THE
WHITE SHIRT?
A. CORRECT.
,
25 Q. NOW, DID SHE USE ANY TERMS OF IF SHE COULD HEAR l
26 THIS CONVERSATION?
27 A. SHE COULD NOT HEAR THE CONVERSATION. l
28 Q. WHAT DID SHE DESCRIBE IT AS?
l
1
r 890
r 1 A. SHE COULDN'T HEAR EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE
r 2 SAYING, BUT SHE DID HEAR SOMEONE SAY, "WHERE YOU FROM?"
r
)._
3
4
Q. DID SHE INDICATE WHETHER OR NOT SHE BELIEVED
THEY WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION OR AN ARGUMENT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THEY WERE ARGUING.
SHE USED THE WORD "ARGUMENT," THE SPANISH
r 7
8
EQUIVALENT?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q. IN TERMS OF WHERE THIS WAS TAKING PLACE IN THE
r
I 11
PARK, DID SHE SAY WHETHER OR NOT SHE HAD SEEN THE VICTIM
OF THE BEATING AND EVENTUAL SHOOTING -- IF HE HAD BEEN
r 12
13
MOVED OR MOVED ON HIS OWN TO A DIFFERENT LOCATION IN THE
PARK?
r 14
15
A. WHERE SHE INITIALLY -- WHERE THE VICTIM WAS
BEING BEATEN WAS A DIFFERENT LOCATION WHERE SHE SAW THAT
[ 16 HE HAD BEEN SHOT AT.
17 Q. WAS THIS STILL WITHIN THE PARK?
r 18 A. YES. IT WAS A MATTER OF FEET AWAY. IT WASN'T
r 19
20
MUCH FURTHER.
Q. HOW MANY GUNSHOTS DID SHE REPORT HEARING TO
r 21
22
YOU?
A. SHE HEARD ONE, THEN A SECOND, AND THEN SEVERAL
F 23 AFTER, MAYBE FIVE AFTER.
[
24 Q. WAS SHE ABLE TO RELATE TO YOU WHETHER OR NOT
r 25
26
SHE SAW THE VICTIM DURING THE SHOOTING?
A. SHE SAW THE VICTIM MOVING AS HE WAS BEING SHOT.
F
~ 27 Q. WAS HE STILL LYING ON THE GROUND?
r 28 A. AS HE LIED ON THE GROUND.
r
891
,
l
1
2
Q. DID SHE SAY WHETHER OR NOT THERE WERE OTHER
PEOPLE IN THE PARK DURING THESE EVENTS?
, J
3 A. SHE SAW OTHER PEOPLE, AS SHE WAS ARRIVING HOME,

l
4
5
6
IN THE PARK AND THEN THE PEOPLE BY THE FENCE LINE.
Q. IN TOTAL, HOW MANY PEOPLE DID SHE SEE IN
RELATION TO PEOPLE BEING IN THE PARK?
,
7
8
A.
Q.
I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES AGAIN.
IF IT WOULD HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION.
l
9 A. A GROUP. I DON'T KNOW IF I -- JUST READING 1
10 THROUGH THIS QUICKLY HERE, I SEE THAT SHE TOLD ME THERE
1
11
12
13
WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE.
Q.
SO TO SPEAK?
SHE WAS NEVER MORE SPECIFIC IN GIVING A NUMBER,
,
14
15
A.
Q.
BEAR WITH ME HERE.
IT'S OKAY.
SORRY.
1
16
17 I'M
A. JUST THE TWO MALES THAT WERE STANDING IS WHAT
THAT WERE STANDING BY THE FENCE LINE.
1
18 Q. AND THESE WERE THE TWO MALES SHE WAS ABLE TO 1
19 GIVE YOU JUST PARTIAL DESCRIPTIONS OF AS WELL AS THEIR
20 ACTIONS? l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. AFTER SEEING THE SHOOTING, DID JESSICA LOPEZ
1
23 TELL YOU WHAT SHE DID NEXT? ~
1
24 A. SHE WENT AND MADE ANOTHER PHONE CALL TO 911.
25 Q. WAS SHE ALSO PRESENT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVED TO l
26 THE SCENE?
~
27 A. YES. )
28 Q. DID SHE TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT SHE WATCHED
l
l
r 892
r 1 THAT AS WELL?
r 2 A. SHE MADE THE PHONE CALL AND THEN HER MOTHER

3 TOLD HER THAT THE POLICE HAD ARRIVED.
r 4 Q. WAS THAT THE EXTENT, DURING YOUR INTERVIEW WITH
r 5
6
MS. JESSICA LOPEZ, OF THE EVENTS SHE WAS ABLE TO
DESCRIBE TO YOU THAT NIGHT?
r 7
8
A. YES.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, DETECTIVE. NOTHING
r 9
10
FURTHER.
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE HAVE A
r
/
11 COUPLE OF ADMINISTRATIVE MATTERS WE NEED TO ADDRESS
r 12
13
HERE. I'M GOING TO DECLARE THE NOON RECESS RIGHT NOW.
PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
r 14
15
ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL, OR TO FORM OR
[ 16 EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS FINALLY

r 18 LET'S RECONVENE AT 1:30 THIS AFTERNOON. THANK

19 YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
~'
r 21
22
r 23
24
ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, LET'S GET YOUR TWO WITNESSES
r 25 IN. WHO ARE THEY, PLEASE?
r 26
27 QUINTERO.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: RANDY BARNES AND EVELYN
r 28 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, SIR. ARE YOU RANDY
r
893
, J
l
1 BARNES?
2 MR. BARNES: YES, SIR. 1
3 THE COURT: ARE YOU EVELYN QUINTERO?
1
4
5
6
MS. QUINTERO:
THE COURT:
AT 9:00 THIS MORNING.
YES.
FOLKS, YOU WERE ORDERED TO BE HERE
I UNDERSTAND YOU WEREN'T HERE.
,
7
8
WHAT HAPPENED?
MR. BARNES: I CAME ON THE BUS AND I GOT HERE
l
9 LIKE 20 MINUTES LATE. 1
10 THE COURT: MA'AM?
11 MS. QUINTERO: I WAS LATE. l
12 THE COURT: WE NEED YOU HERE ON TIME. I ISSUED
13 WARRANTS FOR BOTH OF YOU. I APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT 1
14 YOU'RE HERE, BUT YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST BE HERE ON TIME.
1
15
16
17
DO YOU UNDERSTAND? I'M SEEING YOU BOTH NOD.
UNDERSTAND THAT SOMETIMES WE MAKE YOU BE HERE AND THEN
WE MAKE YOU WAIT, BUT THAT'S JUST THE WAY THE BUSINESS
I
,
18 IS. WE'VE GOT A JURY HERE. I NEED YOU HERE ON THE NEXT 1
19 COURT DATE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
20 MR. BARNES: YES, YOUR HONOR. l
21 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHAT DATE WILL
1
22
23
24
THAT BE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
APRIL 12TH.
YOU'RE EACH ORDERED TO COME BACK TO
,
25 THIS COURTROOM, DEPARTMENT 48 OF THE SAN DIEGO SUPERIOR 1
26 COURT, LOCATED AT 220 WEST BROADWAY, ON APRIL 12, 2011,
27 THAT IS A WEEK FROM TODAY, AT 9:00 IN THE MORNING. l
28 WE'VE GOT OTHER WITNESSES COMING BACK AT THAT TIME AS
l
l
r 894
r 1 WELL.
r 2 WE MAY NOT TAKE YOUR TESTIMONY RIGHT AT 9:00,
r
3 BUT WE'LL GET TO YOU AT SOME POINT HOPEFULLY THAT
4 MORNING.
r 5
6
MR. BARNES, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
MR. BARNES: YES, YOUR HONOR.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
MS. QUINTERO:
MS. QUINTERO, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
YES.
r 9
10 RECALLED.
THE COURT: THANK YOU BOTH.
SEE YOU BOTH BACK HERE NEXT WEEK.
THE WARRANTS ARE
r 11 ADDRESSING COUNSEL, ANYTHING ELSE?
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, WHAT WE JUST HAD
r 14
15
IN THE COURTROOM, I BELIEVE THAT I SHOULD HAVE HAD AN
OPPORTUNITY TO BRIEF THAT. THE WITNESS CAME IN BASED ON
r 16
17
PAST RECOLLECTION RECORDED. I DON'T THINK THAT'S
SUFFICIENT FOUNDATION FOR WHAT SHE TESTIFIED TO.
r 18 SHE BASICALLY TESTIFIED AS TO EVERYTHING
r, 19
20
JESSICA LOPEZ TOLD HER IN AN INTERVIEW.
HEARSAY.
THAT'S CLASSIC
r[ 21 I APPRECIATE THE COURT'S RULING. IT WAS DONE

22 IN HASTE. I THINK I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BRIEFED ON IT AND
[ 23 GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO CITE SOME LAW.

24 THE PROSECUTOR, WITHOUT INFORMING ME WHY
r 25
26
MS. NAVARRO WAS TESTIFYING, JUST BROUGHT HER ON THE
STAND, AND I WAS FORCED TO MAKE JUST A SUPERFICIAL
r 27 OBJECTION. AND I FEEL I DIDN'T GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO
r 28 PROPERLY OBJECT TO THAT TESTIMONY.
r
895
l
l
1 THE COURT: WELL, YOUR OBJECTION WAS RIGHT ON
2 THE MONEY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT BRIEFING WOULD DO. THIS l
3 IS AN ISSUE THAT COMMONLY OCCURS IN THESE CASES.
4 IT WAS APPARENT TO ME FROM THE EXAMINATION OF l
5 MS. LOPEZ THAT WAS CONDUCTED THAT WE WERE GOING TO HEAR
6 FROM THE DETECTIVE AS TO THE STATEMENTS SHE MADE THAT
1
7
8
NIGHT.
I REVIEWED MY NOTES OF HER TESTIMONY, AND THERE
1
9 WERE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT DETECTIVE NAVARRO JUST 1
10 TESTIFIED TO THAT WERE INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT MS. LOPEZ
11 SAID EITHER ON DIRECT OR ON CROSS. THERE WERE A NUMBER l
12 OF THINGS -- A COUPLE OF THINGS, AT LEAST, THAT
13 DETECTIVE NAVARRO TESTIFIED TO THAT MS. LOPEZ SAID SHE l
14
15
DIDN'T REMEMBER.
THERE WERE A COUPLE OF INSTANCES WHERE
1
16
17
MS. LOPEZ SAID, "WELL, I MIGHT HAVE SAID THAT TO THE
DETECTIVE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER."
1
18 AS TO EACH ONE OF THOSE DISCRETE INSTANCES 1
19 WHERE THE DETECTIVE'S TESTIMONY IS INCONSISTENT WITH
20 WHAT THE WITNESS SAID, THAT'S ADMISSIBLE UNDER SECTION .1
21 1235 OF THE EVIDENCE CODE AND A JURY IS INSTRUCTED THAT
22 THEY CAN CONSIDER THAT BOTH TO DETERMINE THE WITNESS'S
l
23
24
CREDIBILITY AND FOR THE TRUTH OF THE PRIOR STATEMENTS.
AS TO THOSE MATTERS WHICH THE WITNESS DIDN'T
1
25 REMEMBER, MY SENSE AT THE TIME WAS THAT THE WITNESS WAS 1
26 ATTEMPTING TO BE TRUTHFUL WHEN SHE TALKED TO THE
27 DETECTIVE. THE DETECTIVE'S PURPOSE IN TALKING TO HER l
28 WAS TO MEMORIALIZE THE CONVERSATION, AND I THINK THAT
l
l
r 896
r 1 WAS A SUFFICIENT BASIS UNDER PAST RECOLLECTION RECORDED.
r 2 NOW, THE RUB ALWAYS IS THEN WHAT ABOUT THE

3 OTHER THINGS THAT THE DETECTIVE TESTIFIES TO THAT WERE
r
l 4 NEITHER INCONSISTENT NOR FORGOTTEN BY THE WITNESS? IT
r 5
6
SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S REALLY NOT POSSIBLE, WITHOUT
CONSUMING AN UNDUE AMOUNT OF TIME, TO PARSE AND SET THE
r 7
8
STAGE FOR EACH OF THE INCONSISTENCIES AND EACH OF THE
PAST RECOLLECTIONS RECORDED.
r 9
10
I THINK IT MAKES MORE SENSE TO LET
SUBSTANTIALLY ALL OF THE STATEMENT COME IN, WITH SOME
r 11 LIMITATIONS. IF THERE WERE ONLY ONE INCONSISTENCY, I
r 12
13
WOULDN'T LET THEM RELATE THE WHOLE STATEMENT AGAIN.
BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT'S CUMULATIVE OR
r 14
15
EMPHASIZES A STATEMENT TWICE, I DON'T SEE ANY PREJUDICE
FROM IT. FEEL FREE TO FILE ANY POINTS AND AUTHORITIES
E 16
17
YOU WANT ON IT, BUT I'M NOT INCLINED TO REVISIT IT
UNLESS YOU COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
r, 19
20
THE COURT: THANK YOU. ALWAYS A TOUGH CALL.
LET'S GET MR. AGUILAR IN, RECALL HIS WARRANT
r 21
22
AND GET HIS PASSPORT BACK TO HIM.
DEPUTY TRAPP, MAY I ASK THAT YOU ASK
r 23
24
MR. AGUILAR TO STEP INTO THE COURTROOM.
MR. AGUILAR, GOOD MORNING AGAIN.
r 25 MR. AGUILAR: GOOD MORNING.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
AND HELD FOR YOU.
WE HAD A WARRANT, YOU KNOW, ISSUED
THAT WARRANT IS GOING TO BE RECALLED.
28 IT'S OFF THE BOOKS. I'M GOING TO ASK DEPUTY TRAPP TO

[
r
897
1
1 HAND YOUR PASSPORT CARD BACK TO YOU. YOU COMPLIED WITH
1
1
2
3
4
WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO.
YOU'RE RELEASED FROM THIS CASE.
MR. AGUILAR: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU FOR THAT.
OKAY?
AND
,
i
5 THE COURT: GOOD LUCK TO YOU, SIR.

6 MR. AGUILAR: ALL RIGHT.
1
7
8
THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
(AT 12:05 P.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN, TO
1
9 BE RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.) l
10 Ill
11 Ill l
12 Ill
13 Ill l
Ill
14
15 Ill
l
16
17
Ill
Ill
1
18 Ill l
19 Ill
20 Ill 1
21 Ill
22 Ill l
23
24
Ill
Ill
1
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
l
l
r 898
l 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2011; 1:37 PM
r 2
r 3
4
{THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN
r 5
6
THE COURT:
GOOD AFTERNOON.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS
r 7
8
ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
DETECTIVE NAVARRO-MORAN HAS RESUMED THE WITNESS STAND.

r
L
9 FOLKS, BEFORE WE BEGIN CROSS-EXAMINATION, IT
10 OCCURS TO ME THAT I NEED TO COLLECT THE TRANSCRIPTS THAT

r 11 YOU HAVE FROM THE LAST ELECTRONIC RECORDING THAT WAS
12 PLAYED. IF YOU'LL JUST PASS THEM TO YOUR RIGHT, PLEASE,

[ 13 WE'LL HAVE DEPUTY TRAPP PICK THEM UP. MY THANKS TO
r 14
15
COUNSEL FOR REMINDING ME OF THAT OVER THE NOON HOUR.
[ 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE NAVARRO.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 21
22
Q.
NAVARRO?
IS IT ALL RIGHT IF I CALL YOU DETECTIVE
[ 23 A. SURE, THAT'S FINE.
r 25
26
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS MORNING A
CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH JESSICA LOPEZ. YOU HAD STATED
r 27 THAT SHE SEEMED SCARED.
[ 28 A. YES.
r
899
,
1
1
2
3
Q. THIS WAS THE ACTUALLY THE NIGHT OF THE
SHOOTING, RIGHT?
A. I INTERVIEWED HER THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF
,
4 SEPTEMBER 14. l
5 Q. SO WAS IT LIKE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT KIND
6 OF THING, OR WAS IT MORE TOWARDS THE MORNING?
1
7
8
A. LIKE 2:00 IN THE MORNING ON SEPTEMBER 14TH JUST
AFTER THE INCIDENT HAD OCCURRED.
1
9 Q. SO LIKE MAYBE ABOUT FIVE HOURS AFTER THE 1
10 SHOOTING?
11 A. YES. 1
12 Q. YOU INDICATED THAT SHE STATED TO YOU THAT THE
13 INITIAL ASSAILANT HAD A DARK SHIRT ON. l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
SHE WASN'T TOO SURE ABOUT THAT, CORRECT?
l
16
17
A. I BELIEVE SHE WAS SURE. I FELT SHE WAS SURE.
1
Q. READING FROM THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW
18 WITH JESSICA LOPEZ BY DETECTIVE NAVARRO, PAGE 11, LINES l
19 7 THROUGH 16:
20 "QUESTION: WHAT COLOR DID THE 'SUSPICIOUS' l
21 HAVE, THE FIRST GUY THAT WAS HITTING?
22 "ANSWER: HE HAD LIKE A DARK SHIRT, I THINK.
1
23
24 DON'T KNOW?
"QUESTION: DARK. WAS IT BLUE OR BLACK OR YOU
1
25 "ANSWER: I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE I CAN BARELY l
26 SEE FAR AWAY."
27 DO YOU REMEMBER THOSE BEING THE EXACT WORDS? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
[
900
L 1 Q. SO THAT IS WHAT SHE SAID.
r 2 A. SHE COULDN'T TELL ME WHETHER IT WAS A BLUE OR A
r
3 BLACK SHIRT.
4 Q. SHE INDICATED THAT SHE COULD BARELY SEE FAR
r 5
6
AWAY?
A. SHE ALSO INDICATED THAT IT WAS A DARK SHIRT.
r 7
8
SHE SAID, "I THINK A DARK SHIRT."
Q. SO, AGAIN, SHE WASN'T THAT SURE. IT WAS SHE
r 9
10
BELIEVED, SHE THOUGHT, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 11 Q. ALSO SHE INDICATED THAT THE MAN WHO SHE SAW,
r 12
13
THE INITIAL ASSAILANT, HAD SHORT HAIR, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
SHE SAID HE WAS NOT BALD.
CORRECT.
[ 16 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, MR. DOMINGUEZ AT THE TIME --

17 HE WAS BALD, RIGHT?
r 18 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. LACK OF FOUNDATION.
r 19
20
THE COURT: I'LL FIND OUT.
DO YOU KNOW, MA'AM, IF HE WAS OR NOT AT THAT
r 21
22
TIME?
THE WITNESS: I DO NOT KNOW.
r 23
24
THE COURT:
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. SUSTAINED.
r 25 Q. MS. LOPEZ INDICATED TO YOU THAT SHE ACTUALLY
r 26
27
DIDN'T SEE THE TWO MEN JOIN IN THE FIGHT, RIGHT?
A. THE TWO MEN? SHE SAW ONE MAN BEATING ON THE
r 28 VICTIM.
r
901
,
1 Q. AND THEN LATER ON SHE SAID THAT THERE WAS TWO
l
2 MEN THAT JOINED, BUT SHE DIDN'T SEE THAT. 1
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. THAT SHE WAS JUST RELYING ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S 1
5 STATEMENT.
6 A. CORRECT.
1
~
8
Q. AT ONE POINT IN THE INTERVIEW, MS. LOPEZ
INDICATED THAT SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE GUYS WERE DOING
1
9
10
AT THE TIME OF OR JUST AFTER THE SHOOTING, THE GUYS WHO
SHE SAW STANDING TO THE SIDE, RIGHT? DO YOU REMEMBER
1
11 THAT? 1
12 A. THERE WAS A GROUP THAT SHE SAW BY THE RESTROOMS
13 AND THEN ANOTHER GROUP BY THE FENCE LINE. l
14 Q. TALKING ABOUT THE ONE BY THE FENCE LINE, SHE
l
15
16
17
INDICATED THAT SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING,
RIGHT?
A. SHE COULDN'T SEE.
,
18 Q. SHE COULDN'T SEE THEM. AND THAT'S THE SAME 1
19 GROUP THAT SHE HAD INDICATED SHE THOUGHT MIGHT BE
20 ARGUING? 1
21 A. SHE SAW TWO PEOPLE ARGUING BY THE FENCE LINE,
1
22
23
24
AND THAT'S -- SHE BELIEVES THEY MAY HAVE BEEN RELATED TO
THAT GROUP THAT WAS BY THE FENCE LINE.
Q. AGAIN, SHE INDICATED THAT SHE COULDN'T SEE THEM
,
25 VERY WELL, RIGHT? 1
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. IN FACT, YOU ASKED HER IF THEY WERE, IN FACT, l
28 STANDING THERE, AND SHE SAID -- YOU ASKED IF THEY WERE
1
,
r 902
r 1 WATCHING, AND HER ANSWER IN THE TRANSCRIPT, PAGE 21,

[ 2 LINES 4 THROUGH 6 WAS, "I THINK CUZ YOU COULD BARELY
3 SEE. I THINK THEY WERE OVER THERE OR-- I DON'T KNOW."
[ 4 DO YOU REMEMBER HER SAYING THAT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
NOW, YOU INDICATED ON DIRECT THAT SHE TOLD YOU
r 7
8
THAT SHE HEARD THE PHRASE "WHERE YOU FROM" COMING FROM
THIS AREA, RIGHT?
r 9 A. YES.
r
10 Q. THE AREA WHERE SHE THOUGHT SHE MIGHT SEE PEOPLE
11 STANDING, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT ACTUALLY IT WAS YOU WHO INSISTED THAT
r 14
15
PERHAPS SHE HEARD "WHERE YOU FROM," RIGHT?
A. I DIDN'T INSIST.
r 16 Q. YOU WERE THE FIRST ONE WHO SAID IT.
r
17 A. I HAD INTERVIEWED HER MOTHER PRIOR TO
18 INTERVIEWING JESSICA, AND HER MOTHER HAD STATED THAT,
r 19
20
AND SO I ASKED JESSICA IF SHE HAD HEARD WHAT HER MOTHER
HAD HEARD.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
YOU DIDN'T TELL HER THAT HER MOTHER HEARD.
I DON'T THINK I DID, NO.
r 23
24
Q.
THROUGH 22:
PAGE 22 OF THE TRANSCRIPT, STARTING AT LINES 17
r 25
26
"QUESTION: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IF THEY WERE
DOING THINGS OF GANGS, OR GANGS ANYTHING?
r 27 "ANSWER: NO, UM
r 28 "QUESTION: NO? YOU NEVER HEARD ANY OF THAT?
r
903
,
l
1
2
3
UM, DID YOU HEAR THINGS LIKE,
"ANSWER:
'WHERE YOU FROM?'
I THINK -- I THINK I DID HEAR THAT
WHEN HE WAS FIGHTING WITH THE ONE STANDING UP."
,
4 DO YOU REMEMBER? l
5 A. YES, I REMEMBER ASKING THAT.
6 Q. SO ACTUALLY SHE DIDN'T OFFER IT TO YOU, YOU
1
7 PRESENTED IT TO HER.
~
8 A. RIGHT. I ASKED HER THAT QUESTION.
~
9 Q. AND THEN SHE CONFIRMED IT.
J
10 A. YES.
11
12
13
Q. DETECTIVE, YOU'RE A POLICE DETECTIVE --
RIGHT? -- OBVIOUSLY.
A. CORRECT.
,
l
i
1
,
14 Q. THE ROLE OF POLICE DETECTIVE IS YOU TRY AND
15 INVESTIGATE CASES.
16 A. CORRECT.
-
17 Q. THAT INVOLVES INTERVIEWING WITNESSES.
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. IT INVOLVES WRITING POLICE REPORTS.
20 A. YES. 1
21 Q. IT INVOLVES TESTIFYING.
22 A. YES.
l
1
,
23 Q. DURING YOUR WORK AS A POLICE DETECTIVE, YOU
24 OFTENTIMES DISCUSS THE CASE WITH THE PROSECUTOR.
25 A. IN THIS CASE I HAVEN'T.
26 Q. THE QUESTION IS: IN YOUR WORK AS A PROSECUTOR,
27 YOU OFTENTIMES DISCUSS THE CASE WITH THE PROSECUTOR; IS 1
28 THAT RIGHT?
l
,
r 904
r,
1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. YOU SOMETIMES DISCUSS MAYBE THEIR THEORY OF THE
r 3
4
CASE OR WOULD YOU EVER DISCUSS THE THEORY OF THE CASE
WITH THE PROSECUTOR?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
IN THIS CASE I HAVEN'T.
IN GENERAL?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NOT NECESSARILY.
SOMETIMES?
r 9
10
A. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN.

WHEN YOU SAY "THEORY,"
L 11 Q. WELL, THE PROSECUTOR MIGHT SAY, "HEY, WE THINK
12 THIS HAPPENED."
r- 13 A. NO. USUALLY WHEN I PRESENT A CASE TO THE
r 14
15
D.A.'S OFFICE, I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT IN WHAT MY
INVESTIGATION -- WHAT I WROTE HAPPENED. IN THIS CASE
r 16
17
I'M NOT THE EVIDENCE CASE AGENT.
Q.
I ONLY DID INTERVIEWS.
WHEN YOU DISCUSS -- WHENEVER YOU TESTIFY,

[ 18 USUALLY YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE PROSECUTOR.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU GO OVER -- FOR EXAMPLE, HE MIGHT SAY,
r-
21
22
"OH, I'M CALLING YOU ON SUCH AND SUCH A CASE.
REVIEW THIS POLICE REPORT OR THAT POLICE REPORT."

CAN YOU
r 23 A. YES.
r, 24
25
Q. DID THAT HAPPEN IN THIS CASE? DID THE
PROSECUTOR TELL YOU WHICH POLICE REPORTS TO REVIEW?
26 A. NO. HE GAVE ME A COPY OF MY REPORT THAT I
r 27 ALREADY HAD FROM THE PREVIOUS -- FROM THE PRELIM.
r 28 Q. HE ASKED YOU TO REVIEW THAT BEFORE TESTIFYING?
r
l
1 A. NO. I TOOK IT UPON MYSELF TO REVIEW THAT.
905
I
,
2 DID REVIEW THE TRANSCRIPTS THAT HE HANDED ME THIS l
3 MORNING.
1
4
5
Q.
A.
HE HANDED YOU TRANSCRIPTS OF THIS INCIDENT?
YES, THIS MORNING, BUT I HAD MY INVESTIGATOR'S ,
6
8
REPORT FROM THE PREVIOUS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AS A DETECTIVE, YOUR JOB IS TO SORT
OF WORK WITH THE PROSECUTION IN PUTTING TOGETHER THE
, )
10
CASE SOMETIMES, RIGHT?
A. YES.
,
l
11
12
13
Q.
WAYS.
YOU WORK WITH THEM IN A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU MIGHT BE TOLD WHAT QUESTIONS YOU
MIGHT BE ASKED BEFORE YOU TESTIFY.
,
14
15
A. I CAN HONESTLY TELL YOU THAT A PROSECUTOR HAS
NEVER TOLD ME WHAT QUESTIONS THEY WERE GOING TO ASK ME.
l
1
,
16 Q. BUT THEY MIGHT GO THROUGH SOME TOPICS THAT THEY
17 WANT TO DISCUSS.
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. AND THEY MIGHT VERIFY CERTAIN THINGS WITH YOU,
20
21
RIGHT?
A. YES. ,
l
22
23
Q. SO IF THEY WOULD TELL YOU, SAY, A FACT, MAYBE
"IS THIS FACT TRUE," AND YOU WOULD SAY "YES" OR "NO"
, ~
J
24 DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS?
25 A. CORRECT. 1
26 Q. NOT BEFORE THIS HEARING, BUT YOU TESTIFIED IN A
27 PRIOR HEARING, RIGHT? l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
l
[
906
r. 1 Q. ON THIS CASE?
r 2 A. CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q. IN THAT PRIOR HEARING, DID YOU HAVE THAT TYPE
OF CONVERSATION WITH THE PROSECUTOR?
r 5
6
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS A PRELIMINARY HEARING
THAT I CAME AND TESTIFIED, BUT I DON'T -- WHAT I
r 7
8
REMEMBER, I WAS TOLD THAT I WOULD BE TESTIFYING FOR
MAGDALENA AND HER DAUGHTER JESSICA FOR THE PRELIMINARY
r 9
10
HEARING.
Q. YOU'D BE TESTIFYING IN THEIR PLACE?

[ 11 A. IN THEIR BEHALF, CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SO YOU HAD TO GO OVER THEIR STATEMENTS.
YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND DID MR. TROCHA VERIFY THE TRUTH OF ANY OF
THOSE STATEMENTS WITH YOU PRIOR TO THE HEARING?
r- 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
RELEVANCE. VAGUE.
[ 18 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
r 19 Q. DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH MR. TROCHA
20 BEFORE THAT HEARING?
A. I DON'T -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I READ THROUGH MY

r 21
22 REPORTS. I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
REDIRECT?
r 25
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
r
/
27 Q. DETECTIVE, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A POLICE
28 OFFICER AGAIN?
r
r
907
l
1 A. 14 YEARS -- ALMOST 14 YEARS IN AUGUST.
l
2 Q. DO YOU NEED A D.A. TO TELL YOU WHAT TO SAY l
3 BEFORE YOU COME TO COURT EVERY SINGLE TIME?
4 A. NO. l
l
7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DO YOU COME TO THE D.A. AND DEMAND TO SEE WHAT
1
9 QUESTIONS WE'RE GOING TO ASK YOU BEFOREHAND?
A.
l
10 NO. I DON'T ASK.
11 Q. DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU'RE PROFESSIONAL IN YOUR l
12 JOB?
l
13
14
A.
Q.
I AM.
PREPARED WHEN YOU COME TO COURT? , )
15 A. I LIKE TO THINK SO.
16 Q. YOU TAKE THIS UPON YOURSELF TO DO IT ON YOUR
l
17 OWN?
A. l
Q.
l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO PULL REPORTS YOURSELF,
l
23 CORRECT? ,
s
24 A. YES.
25 Q. DID YOU THINK WE WERE GOING TO HAVE YOU TESTIFY
26 AS TO SOMETHING OUTSIDE OF THE REPORTS YOU YOURSELF
27 WROTE? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
c 908
r 1 Q. AND, LASTLY, THE INTERVIEWS WE'VE BEEN TALKING
r 2 ABOUT, PRIMARILY JESSICA, AS YOU TESTIFIED HERE TODAY,
r 3 AND MAGDALENA'S THAT YOU REFERENCED AS WELL, THESE WERE
4 AUDIO RECORDED BY YOU, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
SO THE FULL AND COMPLETE INTERVIEW OF ALL THE
r 7
8
INTERACTIONS THAT YOU HAD WITH THESE WOMEN IS AVAILABLE
TO ANYONE CONNECTED WITH THIS CASE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
IN FACT, TRANSCRIPTS WERE MADE FROM THAT AUDIO.

r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. IS THERE ANYWHERE IN THOSE TRANSCRIPTS OR YOUR
REPORTS WHERE JESSICA WAS UNABLE TO GIVE YOU THE
r 14
15
INFORMATION THAT THE PERSON WHO BEAT AND SHOT THE
VICTIMS WERE IN A DARK SHIRT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I'M SORRY?
SURE. LET ME REPHRASE IT.
r 18 IS THERE ANYWHERE WHERE JESSICA TOLD YOU THAT
r 19
20
THE SHOOTER AND THE BEATER WAS WEARING A WHITE SHIRT?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q. IS THERE ANYWHERE WHERE JESSICA TOLD YOU THAT
SHE DIDN'T HEAR AN ARGUMENT OR WITNESS AN ARGUMENT NEXT
r 23
24
TO THE FENCE LINE?
A. NO.
r 25 Q. IS THERE ANYWHERE THAT SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T SEE
r 26
27
THIS HAPPEN AT ALL?
A. NO.
r
909
l
l
1 THE COURT: THANK YOU. RECROSS?
4 Q. DETECTIVE, SHE DID SAY QUITE OFTEN DURING THE 1
5 INTERVIEW THAT SHE COULD NOT SEE VERY WELL, RIGHT?
6 A. SHE SAID THAT.
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
DETECTIVE, THANK YOU SO MUCH. YOU
l
9 MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. 1
10 PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY
11 OTHER WITNESS, OTHER THAN INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE TRIAL l
12 IS OVER.
14
15
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
GOOD DAY TO YOU, MA'AM.
THANK YOU.
l
16 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA.
l
17 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE
18 AT THIS TIME WOULD CALL MR. SHAWN MONTPETIT. 1
20 THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE 1
21
22
l
23 HELP YOU GOD?
25 THE CLERK: PLEASE TAKE THE WITNESS STAND. l
27 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON. l
l
l
r 910
r 1 NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD.
r 2 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS SHAWN MONTPETIT,
r
3 S-H-A-W-N, M-0-N-T-P-E-T-I-T.
4 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, BEFORE YOU
r 5
6
BEGIN YOUR EXAMINATION, MAY I ASK THAT YOU RETRIEVE THE
EXHIBITS FROM THE WITNESS STAND THAT WERE SHOWN TO
r 7
8
PREVIOUS WITNESSES.
THE ROOM.
MR. MONTPETIT WILL, I THINK, NEED
r 9
10
SHAWN MONTPETIT,
r 12
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 14
15
Q.
A.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. MONTPETIT.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
HOW ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED?
I'M THE TECHNICAL MANAGER AT THE CRIME
r 18
19
LABORATORY IN THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT.
Q. WHAT ARE YOUR DUTIES AS THE MANAGER?

r 20 A. AS THE TECHNICAL MANAGER, IN ADDITION TO
r 21
22
PERFORMING DNA ANALYSIS ON CASE WORK, IDENTIFYING
BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL, I'M ALSO TASKED WITH VARIOUS THINGS
r 23
24
INCLUDING THE TRAINING OF NEW ANALYSTS,
OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES.
IMPLEMENTATION
r 25 I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PROTOCOLS OF -- THE
r 26
27
TECHNICAL PROTOCOLS AS WELL AS THE POLICIES THAT ARE
CURRENTLY EMPLOYED IN THE LABORATORY.
r 28 Q. WHAT SORT OF DEGREES, EDUCATION AND/OR TRAINING
r
911
l
DID YOU HAVE TO UNDERGO TO OBTAIN YOUR POSITION?
l
1
2 A. I HAVE A BACHELOR'S OF SCIENCE FROM CONCORDIA l
3 UNIVERSITY IN MONTREAL, CANADA. I ALSO HAVE A MASTER'S
4 DEGREE IN FORENSIC SCIENCE FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF l
5 ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM.
6 DURING MY STUDIES I TOOK COURSES SUCH AS l
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8
MOLECULAR BIOLOGY, GENETICS, BIOCHEMISTRY, POPULATION
BIOLOGY AND STATISTICS, WHICH I USE ON A DAY-TO-DAY
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9 BASIS IN MY ROLE IN THE LABORATORY. l
10 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU HAD YOUR POSITION AS THE
11 TECHNICAL MANAGER AT SAN DIEGO P.O.? l
12 A. I'VE BEEN THE TECHNICAL MANAGER SINCE SEPTEMBER
13 2006, AND I'VE BEEN EMPLOYED WITH THE LABORATORY SINCE 1
14 OCTOBER OF '99.
15 Q. AND SINCE '99, WHAT WERE YOUR OTHER TITLES OR
1
16
17
JOB DUTIES WITH THE SAN DIEGO CRIME LAB?
A. WHEN I ORIGINALLY WAS EMPLOYED BY THE POLICE
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18 DEPARTMENT, I WAS A CRIMINALIST IN THE DNA SECTION, AND l
19 AS A CRIMINALIST I WOULD TEST ITEMS OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
20 ASSOCIATED WITH CRIMINAL MATTERS TO LOCATE AND IDENTIFY l
21 POTENTIAL BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL AND THEN PERFORM DNA
22 TESTING ON THAT MATERIAL WHICH IS STILL PART OF MY
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23
24
CURRENT DUTIES RIGHT NOW.
Q. HOW MANY CRIMINALISTS DO YOU OVERSEE AS THE
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25 TECHNICAL MANAGER? 1
26 A. CURRENTLY WE HAVE 15 ANALYSTS IN THE
27 LABORATORY. 1
28 Q. AND IS THIS JUST SOLELY IN THE DNA SECTION?
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r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AND YOU SEE ONLY THE DNA SECTION?
r 3
4 YES.
A. I'M THE TECHNICAL MANAGER FOR THE DNA UNIT,
r 5
6
Q.
NARCOTICS OR
SO YOU WOULDN'T BE OVERSEEING FIREARMS OR
r 7
8
A.
SECTIONS.
NO. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE
r 9 Q. YOU HAVE SPECIALIZED TRAINING IN DNA?
r
10 A. YES. IN ADDITION TO THE COURSEWORK I TOOK
11 DURING MY UNDERGRADUATE AND GRADUATE DEGREES, I'VE ALSO
12 RECEIVED IN-HOUSE TRAINING AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND

r 13 ALSO EXTERNAL TRAINING IN DNA ANALYSIS METHODS,
r 14
15
POPULATION BIOLOGY, STATISTICAL ANALYSES.
AND MOST OF THE TRAINING THAT I'VE COVERED
r 16 THAT I'VE TAKEN HAS COVERED THE ENTIRE SPAN OF THE
r
17 ANALYTICAL PROCESS THAT WE PERFORM AT THE LAB.
18 Q. YOU USED THE TERM POPULATION BIOLOGY SEVERAL
r 19
20
TIMES.
A.
WHAT IS POPULATION BIOLOGY?
POPULATION BIOLOGY IS ESSENTIALLY THE
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22
APPLICATION OF GENETIC PHENOMENA TO POPULATION AS A
WHOLE. SO IT STUDIES HOW DIFFERENT GENETIC TRAITS MOVE
r 23
24
IN A POPULATION AND HOW THEY'RE PASSED ON FROM
GENERATION TO GENERATION.
r 25
26
Q.
ANALYSIS.
YOU ALSO USED THE TERMINOLOGY STATISTICAL
HOW DOES THAT RELATE TO YOUR PROFESSION?

r 27 A. ANY TIME WE PERFORM A DNA ANALYSIS AND WE HAVE
28 A MATCH OF A PERSON OF INTEREST TO A PARTICULAR ITEM OF

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1
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1 EVIDENCE, IF IT'S FORENSICALLY SIGNIFICANT, WE WILL GIVE
2 AN ESTIMATE OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT MATCH. AND WE l
3 DO THAT BY THE APPLICATION OF STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
4 IN THE DNA FIELD THE CALCULATIONS THAT WE l
5 PERFORM ARE VERY SIMILAR TO THE CALCULATIONS THAT YOU'D
6 PERFORM TO FIGURE OUT YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING A LOTTERY.
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8
Q.
OF IT.
IN TERMS OF DNA, LET'S START AT THE VERY BOTTOM
WHAT IS DNA?
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9
10
A. DNA IS A MOLECULE THAT'S FOUND WITHIN THE CELLS
OF EVERY LIVING THING ON THE PLANET. EVERYTHING FROM
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11 SINGLE CELL BACTERIA TO PLANTS, INCLUDING ANIMALS, HAVE l
12 DNA WITHIN THEIR CELLS.
13 HUMANS HAVE DNA WITHIN ALMOST EVERY CELL OF THE l
14
15
HUMAN BODY. AND IT'S THE SAME FROM ONE TISSUE TO THE
NEXT, SO THE CELLS IN YOUR MUSCLES HAVE THE SAME DNA AS
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16 THE CELLS IN YOUR HAIR AND YOUR BONES AND YOUR HEART.
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17 AND NO TWO PEOPLE ON THE PLANET EXCEPT FOR IDENTICAL
18 TWINS ARE GOING TO SHARE THE EXACT SAME DNA. l
19 NOW, IN HUMANS, 99.9 PERCENT OF THE DNA IS THE
20 SAME FROM PERSON TO PERSON. THAT'S WHY WE ALL HAVE l
21 LUNGS, HEART, KIDNEYS AND OTHER ORGANS THAT ARE
22 ESSENTIAL TO THE SURVIVAL.
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24
BUT THERE'S A SMALL PORTION OF THE DNA THAT
DIFFERS FROM PERSON TO PERSON. AND AS FORENSIC
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25 SCIENTISTS, WE CAN GO IN AND EXAMINE THE PORTIONS OF DNA l
26 THAT ARE KNOWN TO DIFFER FROM PERSON TO PERSON TO
27 DEVELOP A DNA PROFILE TO PERFORM A COMPARISON WITH THE l
28 PEOPLE OF INTEREST THAT WE THINK ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE
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r 1 MATTERS THAT WE'RE INVESTIGATING.
r 2 Q. HOW DOES ONE TEST FOR DNA?

3 A. THE TESTING PROCEDURE IS PRETTY
r 4 STRAIGHTFORWARD. IT HAS -- WELL, ONCE YOU IDENTIFY THE
r 5
6
BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL, THE TESTING IS ACTUALLY PRETTY
STRAIGHTFORWARD. IT HAS FOUR DISTINCT STEPS TO IT.
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8
THE FIRST IS AN EXTRACTION OR PURIFICATION
WHERE WE BREAK OPEN THE CELLS THAT CONTAIN THE DNA WITH
r 9 A CHEMICAL MEANS, AND EVERYTHING KIND OF SPILLS OUT
r 10
11
12
LOOSE INTO OUR TEST TUBES. YOU CAN THINK OF IT AS
CRACKING OPEN EGGS INTO A BOWL.
IN THIS CASE, IN THIS ANALOGY, THE DNA WOULD BE

r 13 FOUND WITHIN THE YOLKS. WE BREAK OPEN ALL THOSE IN A
r 14
15
CHEMICAL MEANS, AND THEN WE PURIFY IT SO THAT WE GET RID
OF ALL THE OTHER THINGS, LIKE THE PROTEINS AND STUFF
r 16
17
THAT ARE WITHIN THE CELL, SO THAT WE ONLY HAVE DNA THAT
REMAINS IN THE TUBES.
r 18 AFTER WE HAVE THE DNA ISOLATED AND PURIFIED, WE
r 19
20
PERFORM A QUANTIFICATION STEP WHERE WE ESTIMATE HOW MUCH
HUMAN DNA WE HAVE WITHIN OUR TUBE.
r 21
22
AFTER THAT WE PERFORM WHAT'S CALLED A PCR TEST,
A POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION, WHICH ESSENTIALLY FUNCTIONS
r 23
24
LIKE A LITTLE MOLECULAR XEROX MACHINE. WE CAN FOCUS IN
ON THE SMALL PORTIONS OF THE DNA THAT TEND TO BE
r 25 DIFFERENT FROM PERSON TO PERSON, AND WE COPY THEM OVER

26 AND OVER UNTIL WE HAVE ENOUGH MATERIAL THAT OUR
r 27 INSTRUMENTS CAN DETECT IT.
r 28 AFTER THAT WE DO OUR ANALYSIS PORTION WHERE WE
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1 RUN THE DNA ON AN INSTRUMENT WHERE WE CAN DEVELOP THE
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2 DNA PROFILES THAT WE USE FOR COMPARISON. l
3 Q. WHAT SORTS OF OBJECTS ARE YOU TESTING IN ORDER
4 TO LOCATE THIS DNA? l
5 A. REALLY THE -- ANY SORT OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
6 COULD BE TESTED FOR POTENTIAL BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE. IT
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8
DEPENDS ON THE CASE. IT DEPENDS ON CIRCUMSTANCES.
IN GENERAL, WE TRY AND PERFORM DNA TESTING ON
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9 ALMOST ANY BIOLOGICAL FLUID. THE ONES THAT WE CAN l
10 ACTUALLY IDENTIFY CONCLUSIVELY ARE BLOOD AND SEMEN, BUT
11 WE ALSO DO TESTING ON A VARIETY OF OTHER THINGS: URINE, 1
12 FECES, HAIR, BONE, TISSUE. REALLY ANYTHING THAT COULD
13 HAVE BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL ASSOCIATED WITH IT, WE'LL l
14
15
EXAMINE.
Q. SO IN A SITUATION WHERE SOMEBODY, SAY, BLEEDS
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16
17
ON AN OBJECT OR SPITS ON AN OBJECT OR SEXUAL FLUIDS ARE
TRANSFERRED, YOU WOULD EXPECT TO FIND DNA ON THE OBJECT
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18 OF THOSE FLUIDS UPON IT? l
19 A. WE WOULD EXAMINE THOSE ARTICLES THAT WERE
20 BELIEVED TO HAVE THOSE BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL ON IT, LOCATE l
21 IT, IF POSSIBLE, AND THEN PERFORM DNA TESTS ON IT.
22 Q. WHAT ABOUT SWEAT?
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24
A. THAT'S ACTUALLY A COMPONENT OF OUR TESTING
WHICH HAS KIND OF GROWN. IT'S NOT REALLY SWEAT PER SE,
1
25 BECAUSE SWEAT IS JUST RELEASE OF MOISTURE FROM THE BODY. l
26 HOWEVER, I GUESS THE EVIDENCE THAT WE WOULD
27 LOOK AT THAT'S MOST CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH SWEAT IS A l
28 LOT OF TIMES WE'RE LOOKING AT CLOTHING THAT PEOPLE HAVE
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r 916
r 1 WORN OR THINGS PEOPLE MAY HAVE TOUCHED WHERE THEY COULD
r 2 HAVE TRANSFERRED DNA TO IT DURING THE COURSE OF THEM
r
3 WEARING THE ITEM OR TOUCHING THE ITEM.
4 A LOT OF TIMES IT'S NOT NECESSARILY SWEAT,
5 ALTHOUGH THAT CAN BE A VEHICLE FOR TRANSFER OF CELLULAR

r 6 MATERIAL. BUT IF SAY I WERE TO WIPE MY EYE AND I GOT
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8
SOME MATERIAL FROM MY EYE ON A HAND AND I TOUCHED AN
OBJECT, I COULD THEORETICALLY TRANSFER DNA TO THAT
r 9 OBJECT.
r 10
11
AND SO A LARGE PART OF OUR TESTING THESE DAYS
IS TO LOOK FOR THE SO-CALLED TOUCH DNA OR WEARER DNA
r 12
13
FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORN OR HANDLED ITEMS.
Q. GETTING INTO THAT, LET'S USE THIS PEN FOR AN
r 14
15
EXAMPLE. BEEN HOLDING IT FOR AN HOUR TODAY.
THERE BE DNA ON IT?

WOULD
r 16
17
A. IT'S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE, AND WE WOULD PERFORM A
TEST TO SEE IF THERE WAS DNA ON IT.
r 18 Q. HOW WOULD DNA GET FROM MY HAND TO THIS PEN?
r 19
20
A. LIKE I SAY, USUALLY CELLS CAN TRANSFER WITH
SWEAT, IF YOUR HANDS WERE SWEATY AND YOU WERE HANDLING
r 21
22
THAT PEN. ANOTHER MECHANISM WOULD BE IF YOU COUGHED
INTO YOUR HAND OR YOU WIPED YOUR NOSE AND THEN STARTED
r 23
24
HANDLING THE PEN, YOU COULD TRANSFER CELLULAR MATERIAL
TO THAT PEN THAT WAY.
r 25
26
Q. WHAT ABOUT A SITUATION WHERE YOU HAD AN OBJECT,
SAY, LIKE A CELL PHONE OR ANY OTHER OBJECT YOU CAN

r 27 HANDLE WITH YOUR HANDS. IF A PERSON JUST TOUCHED IT
28 ONCE, PICKED IT UP AND PUT IT DOWN, THEY WEREN'T EXTRA

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SWEATY OR DIDN'T WIPE THEIR FACE OR SOMETHING OF THAT
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1
2 NATURE, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO FIND DNA ON THAT OBJECT l
3 FROM THAT SOLE TOUCHING?
4 A. THE CHANCES ARE LESS LIKELY. THE COMMON l
5 PRINCIPLE THAT WE USE WHEN WE EXAMINE ITEMS SUCH AS THAT
6 IS THE MORE SOMEBODY TOUCHES IT, THE MORE LIKELY THEIR
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7
8
DNA IS GOING TO BE ON IT.
IT IS POSSIBLE FROM A SINGLE INSTANCE OF
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9 TOUCHING AN ITEM, IF YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING ON YOUR HANDS l
10 OR WHATEVER, YOU COULD TRANSFER. BUT THE GENERAL
11 PRINCIPLE IS THAT THE MORE YOU HANDLE SOMETHING, THE l
12 MORE CHANCE THAT YOU'LL LEAVE GENETIC INFORMATION ON
13 IT. l
14
15
Q. DOES THIS BLEED BACK INTO I GUESS WHAT WE CALL
FREQUENT WEARER DNA?
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16
17
A. YES, IT DOES.
l
Q. AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE LIKE, SAY, AN UNDERSHIRT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING FOR FREQUENT WEARER DNA IN
20 AN UNDERSHIRT, WHERE WOULD YOU LOOK? l
21 A. GENERALLY, WHEN WE FIRST STARTED DOING THE
22 TESTING FOR TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO WAS WHICH WEARING
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23
24
PARTICULAR ITEMS OF CLOTHING, WE WOULD SORT OF RANDOMLY
TAKE SPOTS WHERE WE THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF
1
25 CONTACT. l
26 OVER THE YEARS WE HAVE KIND OF REFINED THAT TO
27 AREAS WHERE WE HAD MOST SUCCESS. THOSE WOULD BE THE l
28 COLLARS OF THE SHIRT; IF IT IS A LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT, THE
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r 1 CUFFS. AREAS LIKE THAT WHERE THERE'S GOING TO BE
r 2
3
FREQUENT RUBBING OR TRANSFERS, WE HAVE A LOT OF SUCCESS
IN GETTING DNA FROM THOSE AREAS.
r 4 Q. WHAT EFFECT DOES AN OBJECT RUBBING UPON A
5 PERSON'S SKIN HAVE IN TERMS OF LIKELIHOOD OF FINDING
r 6 DNA?
r 7
8
A. LIKE I SAID, IF THERE IS CELLULAR MATERIAL ON
THE SKIN, THE MORE FREQUENT CONTACT WOULD CAUSE MORE
r 9
10
THERE WOULD CAUSE IT TO BE A TRANSFER TO HAPPEN MORE
OFTEN THAN NOT.
r 11 Q. THIS GOES ALL INTO LOCATING DNA FOR ANALYSIS TO
r 12
13
BEGIN WITH, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. SO ONCE YOU'VE LOCATED THE DNA, YOU'VE GONE
THROUGH THE STEPS, THE QUANTIFICATION, THE PCR THAT YOU
r 16
17
MENTIONED, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP AFTER THAT?
A. AFTER WE GET THE DNA RESULT, THEN WE'LL PERFORM
r 18 AN INTERPRETATION OF THAT RESULT AND THEN PERFORM ANY
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19 COMPARISONS TO PEOPLE OF INTEREST THAT HAVE BEEN
20 SUBMITTED TO THE LAB FOR TESTING.
r 21
22
Q.
OF A RESULT?
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO PERFORM AN INTERPRETATION
r 23
24
A. ESSENTIALLY WE'RE LOOKING TO DETERMINE A FEW
THINGS FROM THE RESULTS: ONE, HOW MANY POTENTIAL PEOPLE
r 25
26
CONTRIBUTED DNA TO IT.
WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT A DNA PROFILE, IF THE DNA
r 27 PROFILE WE'RE LOOKING AT IS FROM A SINGLE PERSON, YOU
28 WOULD EXPECT, AT MOST, TWO DNA TYPES AT ANY ONE DNA

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1 MARKER, AND THAT'S BECAUSE YOU GET HALF YOUR DNA FROM
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2 YOUR MOTHER AND HALF YOUR DNA FROM YOUR FATHER. l
3 AND SO AT ANY ONE DNA MARKER FROM A SINGLE
4 PERSON, YOU WOULD EXPECT A MAXIMUM OF TWO DNA TYPES. IF l
5 WE LOOK AT A DNA RESULT AND WE SEE THREE DNA TYPES IN A
6 MARKER, THAT'S AN INDICATION THAT MORE THAN ONE PERSON
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8
HAS DONATED DNA TO THAT SAMPLE.
AND SO THE FIRST THING WE LOOK FOR IS TO
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9 ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF POSSIBLE CONTRIBUTORS OF DNA TO l
10 THAT SAMPLE. AND IT'S BASED ON COUNTING THE NUMBER OF
11 DNA TYPES THAT WE'RE SEEING AT THE DIFFERENT DNA MARKERS l
12 AND GIVING AN ESTIMATE OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT
13 WOULD BE REQUIRED TO DONATE THAT NUMBER OF DNA TYPES. l
14 THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR ARE
15 SORT OF THE QUALITY OF THE RESULTS. IF DNA HAS BEEN ON
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16
17
AN OBJECT FOR A LONG TIME AND EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS,
YOU CAN HAVE WHAT'S CALLED A DEGRADING OF THE DNA.
l
18 ESSENTIALLY THE DNA BREAKS DOWN OVER TIME, YOU KNOW, l
19 WITH EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS LIKE UV SUNLIGHT, HEAT,
20 MOISTURE, SO WE LOOK FOR SIGNS THAT THAT HAS GONE ON l
21 MAYBE AS WELL.
22 THERE IS ALSO CHEMICAL PHENOMENON THAT COULD
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24
INTERFERE WITH THE COPYING PROCESS THAT I MENTIONED, THE
PCR PROCESS. WE LOOK FOR SIGNS THAT THAT HAS MAYBE
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25 OCCURRED, AND THAT WILL BE USED AS INFORMATION TO HELP l
26 US WITH OUR INTERPRETATION WHEN WE PERFORM COMPARISONS
27 TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED FOR COMPARISON IN l
28 THE CASE.
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,
r 920
r 1 Q. SO EVERYTHING WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT UP TO
r 2 THIS POINT HAS BEEN LOOKING AT A SAMPLE OF DNA TO
r 3
4
DETERMINE IF THERE'S DNA THERE, QUALITY OF IT, AND HOW
MANY DNA TYPES ARE PRESENT.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
ESSENTIALLY, YES.
WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DNA TYPES, WHAT ARE
r 7
8
YOU REFERRING TO IN THAT REGARD? SUCH AS IS A DNA TYPE
PARTICULAR TO ONE PERSON, OR IS THIS SUBTYPES WITHIN A
r 9
10
PERSON'S DNA?
A. WELL, LIKE I SAID, WE EXPECT THAT FROM ANY ONE

r 11 PERSON YOU'RE GOING TO GET HALF YOUR DNA FROM YOUR
r 12
13
MOTHER AND HALF YOUR DNA FROM YOUR FATHER.
GET A DNA TYPE FROM EACH PERSON.
SO YOU'LL
r 14
15
IF WE SEE A RESULT THAT HAS TWO DNA TYPES
MAXIMUM AT ANY ONE PARTICULAR DNA MARKER, THOSE DNA
r 16 TYPES IN PARTICULAR -- WELL, WE ALREADY KNOW THAT ONE
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17 SET CAME FROM MOM AND ONE SET CAME FROM DAD, AND SO WE
18 KNOW THAT DNA TYPES ARE SHARED WITHIN THE POPULATION.
r 19
20
SO IT'S ACTUALLY THE COMBINATION OF THE
DIFFERENT DNA TYPES ALONG THE ENTIRE DNA PROFILE THAT
r 21
22
HELPS DETERMINE THE UNIQUENESS OF THE INDIVIDUAL
PROFILE.
r 23
24
WHEN MULTIPLE PEOPLE HAVE CONTRIBUTED DNA TO A
SAMPLE, WE HAVE MORE POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS OF PAIRS OF
r 25 THOSE DNA TYPES, AND SO WE HAVE MORE POSSIBILITIES FOR
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26 PEOPLE TO BE CONSIDERED CONTRIBUTORS TO THOSE SAMPLES.
27 Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DNA TYPES, HOW IS A
r 28 DNA TYPE REPRESENTED? IS IT COLORS? LETTERS? NAMES?
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921
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1 NUMBERS?
2 A. FOR US, THE DNA TESTS THAT WE RUN, THEY'RE l
3 REPRESENTED -- WE TEST FOR 16 DNA MARKERS. 15 DNA
4 MARKERS THAT WILL HELP DETERMINE THE DNA PROFILE, AND l
5 THOSE ARE CALLED STR'S, OR SHORT TANDEM REPEAT MARKERS,
6 AND THOSE ARE AREAS OF THE DNA THAT ARE KNOWN TO DIFFER
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8
FROM PERSON TO PERSON.
WE ALSO TEST A SECTION OF THE DNA WHICH IS
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9 SPECIFIC TO THE X AND Y CHROMOSOME SO WE CAN DETERMINE l
10 WHETHER A SAMPLE IS FROM A MALE OR FROM A FEMALE. MALES
11 HAVE THE Y CHROMOSOME, FEMALES DON'T HAVE THE Y l
12 CHROMOSOME.
13 SO A SAMPLE THAT ONLY HAS AN X CHROMOSOME l
14
15
REPRESENTED WE WOULD INTERPRET AS COMING FROM A FEMALE.
A SAMPLE THAT HAS BOTH AN X AND A Y WE WOULD DETERMINE
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16 IS COMING FROM A MALE. AND ON THE STR MARKERS THAT WE
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17 LOOK AT, THE DNA MARKERS ARE DIVIDED BOTH BY COLOR,
18 CHEMICALLY, AND THEN BY SIZE, AND THEY'RE REPORTED TO US l
19 THROUGH THE INSTRUMENTATION AS NUMBERS OF PARTICULAR DNA
20 MARKERS. l
21 SO AT A PARTICULAR DNA MARKER, WE MIGHT DETECT
22 A 14 AND A 15. THAT WOULD BE AN INDICATION TO US THAT
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24
THERE WERE ONE PIECE OF DNA THAT HAD 14 REPEATS ON IT
AND ANOTHER DNA FRAGMENT THAT HAD 15 REPEATS ON IT.
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25 AND THE STRUCTURE OF THE DNA MARKERS THAT WE'RE l
26 LOOKING AT, YOU CAN KIND OF THINK OF THE SHORT TANDEM
27 REPEAT ASPECT OF IT LIKE BOXCARS ON A TRAIN. IF WE HAVE l
28 EIGHT BOXCARS WHEN WE DID A TEST, IT WILL BE REPRESENTED
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r 922
r 1 TO US NUMERICALLY AS AN 8.
r 2 THE DATA LOOKS LIKE AN EKG WOULD LOOK. IF
r 3
4
YOU'VE EVER GONE TO THE DOCTOR AND HAD A HEART MONITOR
SET UP AND YOU SEE THE DISTINCT ELEVATIONS COME UP FROM
r 5
6
THE BASELINE, THAT'S WHAT OUR RESULTS TEND TO LOOK LIKE.
WE WOULD GET A DISTINCT ELEVATION FROM THE BASELINE ANY
r 7
8
TIME A DNA TYPE PASSED BY THE DETECTOR IN THE
INSTRUMENT. AND THAT WOULD BE SORTED BASED ON COLOR AND
r 9 THEN BY SIZE.
r 10
11
AND THROUGH THE ALGORITHM IN THE INSTRUMENT, IT
WOULD COMPARE THAT SIZE TO KNOWN DNA FRAGMENTS, AND WE
r 12
13
WOULD GET A REPRESENTATION OF WHAT THAT DNA TYPE WAS AT
THAT PARTICULAR MARKER. AND THE INSTRUMENT DOES THAT
r 14
15
FOR ALL OF THOSE 15 STR MARKERS.
Q. NOW, WE KEEP REFERRING TO AS PART OF THE
r 16
17
ANALYSIS THE INSTRUMENTS THAT ARE INVOLVED. THESE
INSTRUMENTS RECORD THE DATA OR THE ANALYSIS THAT YOU'RE
r 18 EXPLAINING TO THE JURY?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES, THEY DO.
WHY IS THAT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WHY DO THEY RECORD IT?
YES.
r 23
24
A. SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A RECORD OF IT, SO WE CAN
DO THE INTERPRETATIONS AND COMPARISONS.
r 25 Q. IS THIS RECORD AVAILABLE TO ANYONE INVOLVED IN
r 26
27
A CASE THAT WOULD REQUEST IT?
A. WELL, THOSE RECORDS ESSENTIALLY ARE PUT
r 28 TOGETHER BY THE ANALYSTS THAT ARE WORKING ANY INDIVIDUAL
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1 CASE, AND THOSE RECORDS FORM THE BASIS OF OUR
2 CONCLUSIONS THAT WE OFFER IN REPORTS, AND THAT ENTIRE l
3 ANALYTICAL PACKAGE, THE REPORT AND THE ANALYTICAL
4 RECORD, IS GIVEN TO ANOTHER DNA ANALYST WITHIN THE l
5 SECTION FOR A TECHNICAL REVIEW.
6 AND THEN, AGAIN, THAT WHOLE DNA PACKET IS AGAIN
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7
8
GIVEN TO THE SUPERVISOR OF THE SECTION FOR AN
ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW. AND ONCE THE TECHNICAL AND THE
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9 ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW ARE DONE, THOSE FILES ARE STORED l
10 SO THAT WE COULD BRING THEM TO COURT AS NEED BE, OR IF
11 ANYBODY REQUESTS ANY OF THE INFORMATION WITHIN THEM, WE l
12 CAN OFFER THEM UP FOR THEM.
13 Q. THIS REVIEW, IS THIS SO SOMEBODY CAN CHECK YOUR l
14
15
WORK?
A. ESSENTIALLY THE TECHNICAL REVIEW IS DONE ON
l
16 EVERY CASE. AND IT IS A PRETTY IMPORTANT REVIEW AND
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17 PART OF OUR QUALITY PROCESS THAT WE USE IN THE
18 LABORATORY. l
19 THE TECHNICAL REVIEW ENSURES THAT THE DATA WAS
20 OBTAINED CORRECTLY, ALL THE CONTROLS THAT WE USE l
21 FUNCTION PROPERLY, AND THAT THE CONCLUSIONS THAT WERE
22 OBTAINED ARE SUPPORTED BY THE DATA THAT WAS GENERATED.
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24
THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW IS, AGAIN, A
DOUBLE-CHECK OF THAT, OF THE CONCLUSIONS, BUT ALSO IT
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25 CHECKS MORE BROADLY FOR WHETHER THE REPORT FORMAT IS IN l
26 THE CORRECT FORMAT THAT THE LAB POLICY DICTATES AND
27 OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT. l
28 BUT ESSENTIALLY IT IS A -- REVIEW IS COMPLETED
l
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r 924
r 1 BY QUALIFIED ANALYSTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CONCLUSIONS
r 2 THAT WERE GENERATED ARE SUPPORTED BY THE DATA.
r
3 Q. THE DATA THAT IS BEING STORED AND REVIEWED BY
4 THE TECHNICAL REVIEWER, WOULD THIS BE SIMILAR TO BACK IN
r 5
6
MIDDLE SCHOOL WHERE YOU HAD TO SHOW YOUR WORK IN ALGEBRA
BEFORE YOU GOT TO AN ANSWER?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
EXACTLY, YES.
IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO REVIEW YOUR WORK, THEN,
r 9
10
THERE'S A COPY OF THIS TO SHOW HOW YOU GOT TO YOUR
RESULTS AND YOUR CONCLUSIONS IN YOUR FINAL WRITTEN
r 11 REPORT.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
ABSOLUTELY.
NOW, AT THE STAGE YOU'VE DONE YOUR ANALYSIS,
r 14
15
ARE YOU ABLE THEN TO DO A COMPARISON AS TO WHO MAY BE A
CONTRIBUTOR TO THE DNA YOU FOUND IN THE SAMPLE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DOES THAT TAKE PLACE?
r 18 A. ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE DO IS ONCE WE'VE
r 19
20
INTERPRETED THE RESULTS THAT WE GOT FROM THE QUESTION
SAMPLES OR THE UNKNOWNS, WE EVALUATE THAT FOR, LIKE I
r 21
22
SAID, THE COMPONENTS OF THE ANALYSIS, NUMBER OF
CONTRIBUTORS, WHETHER THE EFFECTS OF INHIBITION OR
r 23
24
DEGRADATION HAVE HAPPENED.
ONCE WE HAVE EVALUATED THAT EVIDENCE, WE CAN
r 25
26
THEN DO A COMPARISON. ON SINGLE SOURCE SAMPLES, SAMPLES
THAT CAME FROM A SINGLE PERSON, THE ANALYSIS AND THE
r 27 INTERPRETATION IS PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.
r 28 IF ANYBODY IS MISSING A DNA TYPE FROM THAT DNA
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925
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1
2
3
PROFILE, THEY WOULD BE EXCLUDED. SOMEBODY WOULD HAVE TO
MATCH AT ALL THE MARKERS THAT WE'VE OBTAINED RESULTS
FROM IN ORDER TO BE INCLUDED AS A CONTRIBUTOR OF DNA TO
,
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4
5
6
THAT SAMPLE.
THE MORE PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE INCLUDED IN A
MIXTURE, THE INTERPRETATION BECOMES A LITTLE BIT MORE
,
7
8
COMPLEX BECAUSE THERE'S MORE POSSIBILITIES OF PEOPLE
JUST SORT OF MATCHING BY CHANCE.
l
9 AND SO IN ORDER TO DO A COMPARISON TO COMPLEX l
10 MIXTURES, WHAT WE ESSENTIALLY DO IS WE LOOK AT THE
l
11
12
13
STRENGTH OR THE EFFICIENCY THAT WE OBTAINED RESULTS.
WHEN I MENTIONED BEFORE THAT WE LOOK AT THE RESULTS AND
IT'S KIND OF LIKE AN EKG, THE HEIGHT OFF THE BASELINE
,
14
15
THAT WE SEE A RESULT, IT'S INDICATIVE OF HOW MUCH DNA IS
THERE.
l
16 AND SO WE CAN USE THE RESULTS THAT WE GENERATE.
l
17 THAT GIVES AN INDICATION OF HOW MUCH OF ANY PARTICULAR
18 DNA TYPE IS THERE TO GIVE AN ASSESSMENT OF WHETHER l
19 SOMEBODY MAY BE CONTRIBUTING A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF
20 THE DNA OR WHETHER THEY MIGHT BE CONTRIBUTING ONLY l
21 POTENTIALLY A MINOR PORTION OF THE DNA IN THE MIXTURE.
22 AND SO COMPARISONS TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE
l
23
24
CONTRIBUTED A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DNA ARE, AGAIN, A
LOT MORE STRAIGHTFORWARD BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW,
l
25 PRETTY MUCH HAVE THE RESULTS AT EVERY MARKER IN ORDER TO l
26 BE INCLUDED. WHEN IT COMES TO MINOR CONTRIBUTORS,
27 BECAUSE ONCE WE GET DOWN TO LOW LEVELS OF DNA, AGAIN, IT l
28 BECOMES A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLEX TO RENDER THAT
l
l
r 926
r 1 INTERPRETATION.
r 2 AT THE CRIME LAB WHERE I WORK, WE BASE OUR
r 3
4
INTERPRETATIONS OFF OF ESSENTIALLY THE ASSUMPTION THAT
WHERE WE HAVE THE STRONGEST RESULTS, WE ARE MORE LIKELY
r 5
6
GOING TO SEE DNA TYPES FROM OUR MINOR CONTRIBUTORS. AND
SO WE RANK THE DNA MARKERS BASED ON OVERALL STRENGTH AND
r 7
8
THEN MAKE A COMPARISON ON DOWN THE LINE TO SEE HOW MANY
DNA MARKERS SOMEBODY MIGHT POTENTIALLY BE CONTRIBUTING
r 9 DNA AT AND STILL SCIENTIFICALLY BE A CONTRIBUTOR.
r 10
11
IF THERE WAS A STRONGEST DNA MARKER AND
SOMEBODY HAD A DNA TYPE THAT WAS MISSING, THAT WOULD
r 12
13
TEND TO MAKE ME EXCLUDE THEM FROM THE RESULT; HOWEVER,
IF THEY WERE PRESENT AT THE STRONGEST MARKERS AND THEN
r 14
15
BECAUSE THEY WERE LOW LEVEL ALL THE SUDDEN DIPPED BELOW
OUR THRESHOLD OF DETECTION, THAT MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY
r 16
17
MEAN THAT A MISSING DNA TYPE WOULD CAUSE ME TO EXCLUDE.
AND SO WE DO A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF ANY
r 18 MATCH THAT WE MAKE TO TRY AND GIVE THE SIGNIFICANCE.
19 AND WHEN WE TEST DNA FROM A SINGLE PERSON, THE
r 20 STATISTICAL ANALYSIS THAT WE PROVIDE IS A VERY
r 21
22
COMPELLING NUMBER. IT INDICATES THAT IT'S A VERY RARE
CHANCE THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT BE A CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT
r 23
24
SAMPLE.
WHEN WE HAVE A MIXTURE AND MORE POSSIBILITIES
r 25 OF PEOPLE CONTRIBUTING, THEN THE NUMBERS ACTUALLY DROP
r 26
27
AND IT BECOMES MORE COMMON FOR SOMEBODY JUST BY CHANCE
ALONE TO HAPPEN TO MATCH A DNA MIXTURE.
28 AND SO WE TRY AND MAKE SURE THAT THE
r
r
927
l
l
1 STATISTICAL ANALYSIS THAT WE REPORT REFLECTS THE
2 STRENGTH OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WE'RE PROVIDING. l
3 Q. IN TERMS OF MIXTURES, CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO THE
4 JURY HOW THEY WORK. IF YOU HAVE A MIXTURE OF TWO, THEN l
5 A MIXTURE OF THREE, THEN A MIXTURE OF FOUR AND SO ON.
6 A. SURE. ESSENTIALLY, LIKE I SAID, WE EXPECT A
l
7
8
MAXIMUM OF TWO DNA TYPES AT ANY ONE DNA MARKER FROM A
SINGLE PERSON.
l
9 SO IF WE HAVE THREE DNA TYPES, THAT MEANS THAT l
10 A MIXTURE HAS TO HAVE AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE IN IT. IF WE
11 HAVE FOUR, AGAIN, THAT'S, YOU KNOW, A MINIMUM OF TWO l
12 PEOPLE NEEDED TO CONTRIBUTE DNA TO THAT RESULT.
13 IF WE HAVE FIVE DNA TYPES, THAT'S AN INDICATION l
14
15
THAT THERE HAD TO BE AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE.
SO ON AND SO FORTH DOWN THE LINE.
AND WE GO
l
16 IF WE HAVE AT LEAST SEVEN DNA TYPES, THAT'S AN
l
17 INDICATION OF AT LEAST FOUR PEOPLE. NINE DNA TYPES IS
18 AN INDICATION OF AT LEAST FIVE. AND WE VERY RARELY GET l
19 MIXTURES THAT HAVE MORE THAN FIVE PEOPLE.
20 Q. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE CONFRONTED WITH A l
21 MIXTURE OF THREE OR MORE PEOPLE?
22 A. INTERPRETATION BECOMES A LITTLE MORE COMPLEX
l
23
24
THAN THE STRAIGHTFORWARD SINGLE SOURCE TYPE OF SAMPLE,
BUT THE ANALYSIS THAT WE PERFORM IS MUCH LIKE I
l
25 DESCRIBED. l
26 WE LOOK TO SEE WHETHER SOMEBODY COULD BE
27 INCLUDED AS A POTENTIAL MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR. IF NOT, THEN l
28 WE LOOK TO SEE IF THEY COULD BE A POTENTIAL MINOR
l
l
r 928
r 1 CONTRIBUTOR. AND IF NOT, THEN THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY
r 2 EXCLUDED.
r
3 IF THEY CAN'T BE EXCLUDED AS A MINOR
4 CONTRIBUTOR, WE GIVE A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS THAT
r 5
6
ESSENTIALLY SAYS, WELL, WE COULD NOT EXCLUDE THIS
PERSON, AND, YOU KNOW, BASED ON THE RESULTS THAT WE GOT
r 7
8
THE STRENGTH OF THIS INCLUSION IS -- AND THEN WE GIVE
THE STATISTICAL NUMBER.
r 9 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE INCLUDED IN THE DNA
r 10
11
MIXTURE?
A. IT MEANS THAT DNA TYPES CONSISTENT WITH THAT
r 12
13
PERSON ARE PRESENT IN THE MIXTURE.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY CONSISTENT, DOES THAT MEAN ALL 15
r 14
15
MARKERS ARE PRESENT?
A. IF WE HAVE A SINGLE SOURCE SAMPLE WHERE THE
r 16
17
INTERPRETATION IS RELATIVELY STRAIGHTFORWARD AND
SOMEBODY MATCHED ACROSS ALL 16 MARKERS, WE WOULD SAY
r 18 THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT PERSON MATCHED THE RESULTS.
r 19
20
WHEN WE GET INTO A MIXTURE, WE USE THE TERM
"INCLUDED" BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY THE STRENGTH OF THAT
r 21
22
EVIDENCE GOES DOWN WITH MORE PEOPLE THAT COULD POSSIBLY
CONTRIBUTE TO IT.
r 23
24
AND SO WE MOVE AWAY FROM MATCH AND WE SAY "THIS
PERSON IS POSSIBLE" OR "INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE
r 25
26
CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT MIXTURE," AND THEN IT COULD BE
EITHER AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR OR A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR.

r 27 AND THEN IF WE CAN'T REALLY TELL ONE WAY OR THE
r 28 OTHER, THE EVIDENCE DOESN'T POINT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER,
r
929
l
l
1 IT WOULD BE AN INCONCLUSIVE.
2 AND THEN IF THERE IS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO l
3 SUGGEST THAT THE PERSON DOESN'T HAVE DNA IN THAT SAMPLE,
4 AGAIN, WE WOULD EXCLUDE. l
5 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE EXCLUDED?
6 A. IT MEANS THAT WE DIDN'T DETECT ENOUGH DNA TYPES
l
7
8
TO ESSENTIALLY GIVE A CONCLUSION THAT THEY WERE THERE.
Q. HOW DOES ONE GET EXCLUDED?
l
9 A. THERE'S A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT WAYS. YOU HAVE l
10 TO HAVE A DIFFERENCE IN YOUR DNA TYPES FROM THE EVIDENCE
11 THAT IS NOT SCIENTIFICALLY JUSTIFIABLE. l
12 LIKE I SAID BEFORE, WE LOOK AT THE STRENGTH OF
13 THE INDIVIDUAL MARKERS AND THE RESULTS OF THEM TO l
14
15
DETERMINE WHETHER SOMEBODY SHOULD THEORETICALLY, IF THEY
HAVE DNA, BE PRESENT AT THAT DNA MARKER.
l
16 AND IF THEY'RE NOT THERE AND IT'S NOT
l
17 JUSTIFIABLE TO US THAT THEY WOULD BE INCLUDED IN THAT
18 MIXTURE AND BE MISSING A DNA TYPE AT A MARKER, THEN WE l
19 WOULD EXCLUDE THEM.
20 Q. CAN BE A PERSON BE INCLUDED WHILE MISSING A DNA l
21 TYPE AT A MARKER?
22 A. YES, THEY CAN.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
HOW DOES THAT WORK?
LIKE I MENTIONED BEFORE, DNA DEGRADATION OR
1
25 INHIBITION TO A SAMPLE, THAT CAN CAUSE DNA TYPES OR DNA l
26 MARKERS TO COPY LESS EFFICIENTLY SO WE DON'T GET AS
27 ROBUST RESULTS AND WE COULD END UP GETTING LOW LEVEL l
28 RESULTS WHERE FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, WE
l
l
r 930
r 1 DON'T GET A DETECTION OF A PARTICULAR DNA TYPE.
r 2 NOW, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, IN OUR INTERPRETATION,
r 3
4
JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS MISSING A DNA TYPE DOESN'T
NECESSARILY MEAN THEY'RE EXCLUDED. IT WOULD DEPEND ON
r 5
6
WHERE THAT MISSING DNA TYPE HAPPENED TO BE WITHIN THE
DNA PROFILE ITSELF.
r 7
8
AND WE TRY AND LOOK AT THE OVERALL RESULTS TO
GIVE US A SENSE WHETHER THAT PERSON COULD BE
r 9 CONTRIBUTING DNA TO THE SAMPLE OR NOT.
r
10 Q. WHY DOES IT MATTER WHERE ON THE DNA TYPE THE
11 ALLELES MAY APPEAR OR NOT APPEAR?
r 12
13
A. IT MATTERS BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT A --
YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO DETECT A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR AT THE
r 14
15
MARKERS THAT HAVE THE MORE ROBUST RESULTS.
AND SO THAT TRIES TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHEN WE
r 16
17
HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE SAMPLE, WHEN THEY HAVE CHEMICAL
COMPONENTS THAT INTERFERE WITH THE COPYING PROCESS OR
r 18 WHEN THE DNA ITSELF IS FRAGMENTED OR DEGRADED, WE HAVE
r 19
20
RESULTS THAT AT ONE MARKER MIGHT BE MORE ROBUST THAN
RESULTS AT ANOTHER MARKER, AND THAT TRIES TO TAKE THAT
r 21
22
INTO ACCOUNT.
Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DNA AND THE MARKERS
r 23
24
ALONG THIS 16 MARKER MATRIX, WHAT ARE THE RANGES OF THE
NUMBERS? IS IT 1 TO 100, OR DOES IT VARY DEPENDING ON
r
~
25
26
THE MARKER YOU'RE ON?
A. I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING THE QUESTION.
l 27 Q. THE MARKERS YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF DNA
r
\
28 TYPES, AT ONE MARKER I MIGHT BE A 1, 2. THOSE NUMBERS
~
)
931
l
1 AT THAT MARKER, DOES IT GO 1 THROUGH 100, 1 THROUGH 10,
l
2 1 THROUGH 2? 1
3 A. IT DEPENDS ON THE DNA MARKER. SOME OF OUR DNA
4 MARKERS ARE PRETTY DISCRIMINATING, WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE l
5 A LOT OF DIFFERENT DNA TYPES AT THAT MARKER. SOME OF
6 THE DNA MARKERS THAT WE LOOK AT HAVE ONLY A FEW, AS MANY
l
7
8
AS SIX OR SEVEN DNA TYPES THAT WOULD BE EXPECTED IN THE
POPULATION.
1
9 AND SO REALLY IT DEPENDS ON THE ACTUAL DNA l
10 MARKER YOU'RE LOOKING AT HOW MANY POTENTIAL DNA TYPES
11 THERE ARE. l
12 Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE POPULATION, IS
13 THIS THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE OR IS THIS A POPULATION l
14
15
SEPARATED INTO ETHNIC GROUPS?
A. WHEN WE DO THE STATISTICAL CALCULATIONS, THOSE
l
l
,
16 ARE BASED OFF OF POPULATION DATA THAT WAS TAKEN FOR
17 DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES THAT ARE WITHIN THE POPULATION.
18 WHEN WE GIVE A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, WE USUALLY BREAK IT J
19 DOWN IN BETWEEN THE THREE MAJOR ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE

20 UNITED STATES. SO CAUCASIANS, AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND l
21 HISPANICS.
l
22 ESSENTIALLY WHEN WE HAVE A MATCH OR IF SOMEBODY
,
,
23 IS INCLUDED, WE'RE TRYING TO ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH
24 OUR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, WHO ELSE OUT THERE IN THE
25 POPULATION JUST BY CHANCE ALONE MIGHT BE INCLUDED TO THE
26 SAME EXTENT AS THE PERSON WE'VE INCLUDED?
~
27
28
AND IN THAT INSTANCE IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER
WHAT THE ETHNICITY OF THE PERSON WE'RE COMPARING IS, , j
l
r 932
r 1 BECAUSE WE'RE ASKING WHO ELSE OUT IN THE POPULATION AT
r 2 LARGE COULD POTENTIALLY MATCH TO THE SAME DEGREE AS THIS
r 3
4
PERSON JUST BY CHANCE ALONE?
AND SO THAT'S WHY WE BREAK IT DOWN INTO THE
r 5
6
DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS.
Q. ARE YOU ABLE TO TELL BY LOOKING AT A DNA
r 7
8
PROFILE WHAT THE ETHNICITY OF THE PERSON IS?
A. NO.
r 9 Q. SO IN TERMS OF BREAKING IT DOWN ACROSS THE
r 10
11
HISPANIC, CAUCASIAN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN, SAY IF A
PERSON IS ASIAN, HOW WOULD THAT AFFECT THE STATISTICAL
r 12
13
ANALYSIS?
A. WELL, IT WOULDN'T AFFECT THE STATISTICAL
r 14
15
ANALYSIS BECAUSE, LIKE I SAID, ONCE WE DO THE COMPARISON
AND WE INCLUDE SOMEBODY, THEIR PARTICULAR ETHNICITY OR
r 16
17
ORIGIN IS REALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE QUESTION WE'RE
ASKING. WE'RE SAYING WHO OUT THERE IN THE GENERAL
r 18 POPULATION IN THE U.S. COULD BE A POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTOR?
r 19
20
AND SO THAT'S WHY WE USE THE THREE MAJOR ETHNIC GROUPS.
IF THERE WAS A FACT KNOWN TO US PRIOR TO DOING
r 21
22
THE ANALYSIS THAT A PERPETRATOR HAD TO BE OF A CERTAIN
ETHNIC GROUP, THEN WE WOULD LIKELY DO A CALCULATION
r 23
24
SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT ETHNIC GROUP, WHICH HAS HAPPENED
FROM TIME TO TIME.
r 25 WE'VE HAD CASES WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE KNEW THAT
r 26
27
THE PERPETRATOR WAS ASIAN, AND WE WOULD DO A CALCULATION
WITH VARIOUS ASIAN ETHNIC GROUPS AND TRY AND GIVE AN
r 28 ESTIMATE AS TO HOW COMMON THAT DNA PROFILE WOULD BE
r
933
l
1 AMONGST THE ASIAN POPULATIONS.
l
2 Q. WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO DO THAT IF THE PERSON WAS l
3 MULTI-RACIAL?
4 A. NO, WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO THAT, BECAUSE l
5 THE DATABASES WERE DESIGNED WITH -- AROUND DIFFERENT
6 DISTINCT ETHNICITIES. AND THAT WAS DONE BECAUSE DNA
l
7
8
TYPES VARY FROM POPULATION GROUP TO POPULATION GROUP, SO
CERTAIN DNA TYPES THAT ARE MORE COMMON IN AFRICAN-
l
9 AMERICANS ARE LESS COMMON IN CAUCASIANS AND VICE VERSA, 1
10 AND THAT'S THE SAME THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE WORLD.
11 Q. SO AT THIS POINT, DONE YOUR ANALYSIS, YOU FOUND l
12 THE DNA TYPES IN THE SAMPLE, YOU'VE MADE YOUR
13 COMPARISONS TO KNOWN DNA TYPES. WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP? l
14
15
A. THE NEXT STEP IS TO WRITE A REPORT SUMMARIZING
THOSE CONCLUSIONS, TO HAVE THAT REPORT GO THROUGH BOTH
l
16 TECHNICAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW, AND THEN TO ISSUE
l
17 THAT REPORT TO THE INVESTIGATORS THAT REQUESTED THE
18 ANALYSIS. l
19 Q. AT WHAT POINT DOES THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS
20 COME IN? l
21 A. ESSENTIALLY IF WE'VE DONE A -- IF WE'VE GOT AN
22 INCLUSION OR MATCH TO A DNA SAMPLE THAT IS DEEMED
l
23
24
FORENSICALLY SIGNIFICANT. I GUESS AN EXAMPLE OF
SOMETHING THAT WOULD NOT BE FORENSICALLY SIGNIFICANT IS
l
25 IF WE WOULD WERE TO FIND A VICTIM'S DNA TYPE ON THEIR l
26 OWN BODY.
27 IF SOMEBODY WERE TO SWAB MY HAND AND I WOULD l
28 FIND MY DNA TYPES ON MY HAND, THAT WOULDN'T BE
1
l
r 934
r 1 FORENSICALLY SIGNIFICANT TO US, AND SO WE WOULDN'T
r 2 NECESSARILY DO A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. BUT IF WE HAD A
3 MATCH TO A SAMPLE OR AN INCLUSION TO A MIXTURE WHICH WE

r 4 DEEMED TO BE FORENSICALLY SIGNIFICANT, AT THAT POINT WE
r 5
6
WOULD DO THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AND THAT WOULD GO INTO
OUR REPORT.
r 7
8
Q. SO IN TERMS OF ALSO -- BACKING ALL THE WAY UP
TO CONTINUE THE SAMPLE, IS THE SWAB THE PREFERRED METHOD
r 9 TO OBTAIN THE SAMPLE?
r 10
11
A. IN TERMS OF THE PEOPLE OF INTEREST THAT ARE
SUBMITTED OR --
r 12
13
Q. IN TERMS OF YOU HAVE AN OBJECT YOU THINK DNA IS
ON, DO YOU TAKE A SWAB AND TRY TO COLLECT IT THAT WAY OR
r 14
15
THROUGH ANOTHER METHOD?
A. REALLY IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION. IF WE HAVE
r 16
17
A NONPOROUS SURFACE LIKE A DVD PLAYER AND THERE IS A
BLOODSTAIN ON IT, WE'RE GOING TO SWAB THAT.
r 18 IF WE HAVE A POROUS SURFACE LIKE A SHIRT AND

19 THERE IS A BLOODSTAIN ON IT, WE MIGHT ACTUALLY TAKE A
r 20 LITTLE CUTTING OF THAT STAIN FROM THE SHIRT ITSELF AND
r 21
22
DO OUR ANALYSIS THAT WAY.
SO REALLY IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION, BUT WE
r 23
24
CAN EITHER TAKE A LITTLE CUTTING FROM THE ITEMS OR, IF
IT'S MORE WARRANTED, WE CAN TAKE ESSENTIALLY A Q-TIP AND
r 25
26
TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF THE MATERIAL OFF OF THAT.
Q. SO GETTING TO THIS CASE NOW, MR. MONTPETIT
r 27 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, HOLD YOUR THOUGHT.
28 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THIS IS IMPORTANT MATERIAL FOR

r
r
935
1
1 BOTH SIDES. IT IS ALSO DENSE AND COMPLEX. I THINK IT'S
l
2 A GOOD TIME WE TAKE OUR RECESS NOW FOR 15 MINUTES. l
3 WE'LL RECESS AGAIN IN ANOTHER HOUR SO THAT EVERYBODY CAN
4 GET PLENTY OF OXYGEN IN HIS OR HER BRAINS, MYSELF 1
5 INCLUDED.
6 THANK YOU. WE'LL RECONVENE AT QUARTER BEFORE
l
7
8
THE HOUR. THANK YOU, MR. MONTPETIT.
(MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.)
l
9 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. l
10 THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT, ALL
11 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. AS IS EVER THE RULE IN l
12 THIS COURTROOM, FEEL FREE, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, TO
13 STAND AND STRETCH AND REOXYGENATE WHENEVER YOU NEED TO l
14
15
TO MAINTAIN YOUR ATTENTION DURING THESE PROCEEDINGS.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS CASE.
l
16 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION
l
17 OF MR. MONTPETIT.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. MR. MONTPETIT, YOU WENT THROUGH A COUPLE DOZEN l
21 ITEM NUMBERS RELATED TO SPECIFIC PIECES OF EVIDENCE IN
22 THIS CASE, CORRECT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I TESTED MULTIPLE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE, YES.
DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR WORK IN FRONT OF YOU
l
25 IN TERMS OF THE ITEM NUMBERS? l
26 A. YES, I HAVE COPIES OF ALL MY REPORTS.
27 Q. LET'S START WITH ITEM NO. 2, A BLACK BASEBALL l
28 HAT. WAS THAT REQUESTED THAT IT BE TESTED?
l
1
r 936
r 1 A. YES, IT WAS.
r 2
3
Q. IN TERMS OF TESTING THAT, DID YOU HAVE TO TAKE
A CUTTING OR A SWAB FROM IT?
r 4 A. I BELIEVE I TOOK A CUTTING OF A STAIN ON THE
r 5
6
BACK OF THE HAT FOR TESTING.
Q. ITEM NO. 6, BLOODSTAINS FROM GRASS IN MOUNTAIN
r 7
8
VIEW PARK, WAS THAT ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT YOU WERE
REQUESTED TO TEST?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES, IT WAS.
AND THE SAME QUESTION FOR THE FOLLOWING
~
l 11 EXHIBITS SO WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING IT, ITEM 14,
r 12
13
THE CLUMP OF DIRT AND SUSPECTED VOMIT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
FS8A, SWAB OF MOUTH OF BEER BOTTLE NO. 8?
THAT IS CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
YES.
r 18 Q. FS10A, SWAB OF MOUTH OF BEER BOTTLE NO. 10?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
THAT IS CORRECT, YES.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE IT WAS A BEER CAN.
FS13A, SWAB OF MOUTH OF BEER BOTTLE OR CAN?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CAN.
NO. 13. NO. 16, A RIGHT BLACK LEATHER GLOVE.
l 25 A. CORRECT.
26 Q. WERE THERE MULTIPLE SWABS OF THIS GLOVE?
r 27 A. I TOOK MULTIPLE AREAS ON THE GLOVE FOR
r 28 ANALYSIS.
r
937
l
1 Q. 16-1?
l
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. 16-2?
4 A. CORRECT. l
5 Q. AND 16-3?
6 A. WELL, 16-1 AND -- WAS A BLOODSTAIN FROM THE
l
7
8
GLOVE, 16-2 WAS A SWAB OF THE INSIDE OF THE GLOVE TO SEE
IF WE COULD DETERMINE WHO HAD BEEN WEARING THE GLOVE.
l
9 Q. AND 16-3? l
10 A. AND 16-3 WAS A SEPARATE SWAB OF AREAS OF THE P'!!il\
11 INSIDE OF THE GLOVE. J

12 Q. THE BLOODSTAIN ON 16-1, IS THAT FROM THE
13 EXTERIOR OF THE GLOVE? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES, IT WAS.
ITEM 17-A, BLACK LEATHER GLOVE FOR THE LEFT
l
16 HAND?
l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. THERE WERE THREE SWABS OF THIS AS WELL? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND 17-1?
l .:z
21 17-1 WAS A STAIN FROM THE EXTERIOR SURFACE OF

22
A.
THE GLOVE.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
17-2?
AGAIN, THAT WAS A SWAB TAKEN OF THE INTERIOR TO
l
25 DETERMINE IF I COULD TELL WHO WAS POTENTIALLY WEARING l
26 THE GLOVE.
l
27
28
Q.
A.
17-3?
A SEPARATE SWAB OF THE SAME GLOVE TO AGAIN ,
,
r 938
r 1 DETERMINE THE WEARER OF THE GLOVE.
r 2 Q. WITH 16-2 AND 16-3 AS WELL AS 17-2 AND 17-3,
r 3
4
WERE THESE SWABS OF THE SAME LOCATION IN THE INTERIOR OF
THE GLOVES?
r 5
6
A. THERE WAS SOME DIFFERENCES IN THE AREAS THAT
WERE TESTED BETWEEN 16-2 AND 16-3 AND 17-2 AND 17-3.
r 7
8
THE AREAS FOR 17-2 AND 16-2 WERE MORE FROM THE PALM AND
MAYBE THE KNUCKLE AREAS, AND THE SWABBING FOR 16-3 AND
r
L 9 17-3, THE GLOVES WERE PHYSICALLY CUT OPEN AND SO THE
/iff@~
10 INSIDES OF THE FINGERS WERE SWABBED MORE EFFECTIVELY
t 11 THAT TIME.
r 12
13
Q. WE'LL GET INTO THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER.
MOVING ON TO ITEM 29, WOULD THIS BE A SWAB FROM
r 14
15
MOISES LOPEZ'S RIGHT KNUCKLES?
A. YES.
r 16 Q. 30, A SWAB FROM MOISES LOPEZ'S LEFT KNUCKLES?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
31, FINGERNAIL SCRAPINGS FROM MOISES LOPEZ'S
r 19
20
RIGHT HAND?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. 32, FINGERNAIL SCRAPINGS FOR MOISES LOPEZ'S
LEFT HAND?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
35-A, A REFERENCE BLOOD SAMPLE FROM MOISES
r 25 LOPEZ?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WOULD THIS BE THE REFERENCE BLOOD SAMPLE
r 28 NORMALLY OBTAINED FROM THE MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE?
T
939
1
1 A. YES.
l
2 Q. IS THIS KIND OF A CONTROLLED DNA SAMPLE THAT IS l
3 COMMONLY USED IN HOMICIDE CASES?
4 A. IT IS A KNOWN SAMPLE THAT IS TAKEN AT AUTOPSY l
5 FOR USE IN COMPARISONS TO THE VICTIMS IN HOMICIDE CASES,
6 YES.
1
7
8
Q. ITEM NO. 37 IS DESCRIBED AS A WHITE STAFFORD
BRAND DOUBLE XL T-SHIRT?
l
9 A. THAT IS CORRECT. l
10 Q. IN TERMS OF THESE TYPES OF ITEMS, DO YOU ALSO
11 TAKE PICTURES OF THEM WHILE YOU'RE DOING YOUR ANALYSIS l
12 OF THEM?
13 A. YEAH, COMPARE THEM WITH MY ANALYSIS. IF IT'S l
14
15
APPLICABLE OR IF I CAN MAKE USE OF IT, I'LL TAKE A
DIGITAL PHOTO OF THE EVIDENCE FOR INCLUSION IN MY
1
16 ANALYTICAL RECORD.
l
17 Q. I'LL SHOW YOU NOW WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
18 PEOPLE'S 152 KIND OF SHRUNKEN DOWN. THAT PART THAT WAS l
19 ITEM 37, DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THE T-SHIRT THAT YOU DID
20 ANALYSIS UPON? l
21 A. IT DOES. IT APPEARS TO HAVE A MARKING UP ON
22 THE SHOULDER AREA THAT I MADE.
l
23
24
Q. I'LL BRING IT OVER TO YOU.
IF YOU COULD, POINT OUT THE MARKING TO THE JURY
l
25 THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO. l
26 A. I MARKED THIS STAIN AS 37-1 AND PERFORMED
27 ANALYSIS ON THAT STAIN UP ON THE SHOULDER. l
28 Q. WHEN YOU DO THAT, DO YOU COMMONLY WRITE
l
1
r 940
r 1 SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN TERMS OF DENOTING WHERE THE STAIN
r 2 CAME FROM?
r
3 A. YES, SO THAT BASICALLY UPON REVIEW IF I CAN
4 HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE T-SHIRT, I'LL KNOW WHAT I TOOK
5 FROM WHERE.
r 6 Q. DID YOU TAKE ANOTHER SAMPLE FROM THAT T-SHIRT
r 7
8
ALSO KNOWN AS 37-2?
A. YES. I ALSO TOOK A SAMPLE FROM THE COLLAR AREA
r 9
10
TO SEE IF I COULD DETERMINE WHO MAY HAVE BEEN WEARING
THAT SHIRT.
~
[ 11 Q. ITEM 40, SWAB OF BLOODSTAINS FROM 4075 FRANKLIN
r 12
13
AVENUE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. DID YOU SWAB THE BLOODSTAINS OR WAS THIS A SWAB
PROVIDED TO YOU?
r 16
17
A. IT WAS A SWAB THAT WAS COLLECTED BY THE CRIME
SCENE SPECIALIST.
r 18 Q. ITEM 43 IS DESCRIBED AS A WHITE STAFFORD BRAND
r 19
20
TANK TOP AS WELL AS A GRAY LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT; IS THAT
CORRECT?
21 A. YES.
r 22 Q. WERE THESE BROKEN DOWN INTO 43-A FOR THE TANK
r 23
24
TOP AND 43-B FOR THE LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT?
A. YES. IN ORDER TO DO MY ANALYSIS, I
r 25
26
SUBDESIGNATED THOSE AS 43-A AND B SO I COULD KEEP THEM
DISTINCT FROM EACH OTHER.

r 27 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 151, GRAY SWEATSHIRT, WAS

r
r
941
,
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S l
3 EXHIBIT 151. AGAIN, IT'S KIND OF SLID DOWN. ON THE
4 FRONT IT SAYS ITEM 43. l
5 DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THE GRAY LONG-SLEEVED
6 SHIRT?
l
7
8
A. YES, IT DOES. AND I BELIEVE THERE IS MARKINGS
THAT I PUT ON THAT SHIRT AS WELL.
l
9 Q. I'LL FIRST SHOW YOU THE FRONT OF PEOPLE'S 151, l
10 AND YOU CAN KIND OF POINT OUT WHERE SOME OF THOSE ARE.
~
11 A. DOWN IN THE, I GUESS, BOTTOM LEFT-HAND CORNER J
12 THERE'S INDELIBLE MARKER INDICATING A STAIN NUMBER, AND

13 THERE'S SOME STAINS THAT HAVE BEEN CIRCLED BY ME. l
14
15
Q. ALSO ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE SAME EXHIBIT, CAN
YOU SEE SIMILAR MARKINGS?
l
16 A. YES. WE CAN SEE CIRCLED STAINS AS WELL,
l
17 SEVERAL ON THE SLEEVE UP THERE.
18 THE COURT: EXHIBIT 151 CORRESPONDS WITH 153-B? l
19 MR. TROCHA: IT DOES, YOUR HONOR. IT'S A GRAY
20 LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT. l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. ITEM 44 IS DESCRIBED AS A WHITE ALL-STYLE
l
23
24
APPAREL AND ACTIVEWEAR BRAND 4 XL T-SHIRT FROM 405 (SIC)
FRANKLIN AVENUE?
l
26 Q. DID YOU TAKE SWABS FROM THIS T-SHIRT AS WELL OR
l
27
28
CUTTINGS?
A. I TOOK A STAIN FROM THE SHIRT. I DESIGNATED IT
,
1
r 942
r 1 AS 44-1 AND A SECOND STAIN DESIGNATED AS 44-2 AND THEN
r 2
3
AGAIN I TOOK A GENERAL SWABBING OF THE COLLAR OF THE
SHIRT TO SEE IF I COULD DETERMINE WHO WAS WEARING IT,

r 4 AND THAT WAS 44-3.
r 5
6 155.
Q. I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S
ON THE BOTTOM IT SAYS ITEM 44. DOES THIS APPEAR
r 7
8
TO BE THAT T-SHIRT?
A. YES, IT DOES. I BELIEVE THOSE ARE THE MARKINGS
r 9 I MADE ON THAT SHIRT AS WELL.
Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO ITEM 46. IT'S GOING TO BE A
r
10
11 SERIES OF MOUTH SWABS.
r 12
13 A.
46 WOULD BE FROM ROBERTO RUIZ?
YES.
r 14
15
Q. 47 IS A PERSON BY THE NAME OF VANESSA
ECHEVARIA, E-C-H-E-V-A-R-I-A?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
48, A SWAB FROM CHRISTIAN AMBRIZ,
r 18
19
A-M-B-R-I-Z?
A. YES.
[ 20 Q. 49 IS A JESSE PANZA, P-A-N-Z-A?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
54 IS FROM SIRIA FORD, S-I-R-I-A?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
61 IS FROM A TOMAS LOPEZ, T-0-M-A-S?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
62 CORRESPONDS TO A MOUTH SWAB FROM VICTOR
r 27 RAMOS?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
943
1
l
1 Q. 73 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM LUIS VILLANUEVA?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. 77 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM ANDRES LOPEZ?
4 A. YES, IT IS. l
5 Q. 82 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
6 A. CORRECT.
l
7
8
Q.
MENDOZA?
91 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM GREGORY ROMAN
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. 96 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. 101 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM EVELYN SOTO?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
104 IS A MOUTH SWAB FROM DANIEL ZEPEDA?
CORRECT.
l
16
17
Q. AND THEN WE HAVE A JG WHICH CORRESPONDS TO A
MOUTH SWAB FROM JOSUE GUTIERREZ?
l
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WE ALSO HAVE IA FOR A MOUTH SWAB FROM ISMAEL
20 ACEVES?
1
J
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DID YOU ALSO HAVE A SAMPLE FROM A MAN BY THE
l
23
24
NAME OF JOSEPH NIETO?
A. YES. THAT SAMPLE WAS PREVIOUSLY WORKED BY
l
25 ANOTHER ANALYST IN THE LABORATORY, BUT I USED THEIR l
26 RESULTS FOR COMPARISON PURPOSES.
27 Q. AND NIETO WOULD BE N-I-E-T-0? l
28 A. CORRECT.
1
l
r 944
r 1 Q. IS THERE SOMETHING AVAILABLE TO YOU KNOWN AS
r 2 CODIS?
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHAT IS CODIS?
r 5
6
A. CODIS STANDS FOR THE COMBINED DNA INDEX SYSTEM.
IT IS A DATABASE THAT FUNCTIONS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL IN
r 7
8
OUR LABORATORY, AT THE STATE LEVEL BY THE CALIFORNIA
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, AND FEDERAL LEVEL ADMINISTERED BY
r 9
10
THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATIONS.
Q. WHEN YOU RUN A DNA SAMPLE IN YOUR LABORATORY
r 11 AND YOU GET A RESULT FROM AN OBJECT AND IT'S NOT A
r 12
13
MIXTURE, IT IS JUST A SINGLE CONTRIBUTOR RESULT, IS THAT
RESULT COMPARED TO CODIS?
r 14
15
A. IF WE BELIEVE THAT IT'S POTENTIALLY VALUABLE TO
THE CASE, YES, WE WOULD SUBMIT THAT TO CODIS FOR
r 16
17
COMPARISON TO THE DATABASE.
Q. AND IF THERE WAS A MATCH, WOULD THIS COME BACK
r 18 AS A QUOTE, UNQUOTE, CODIS HIT?
r 19
20
A. YES, WE WOULD BE INFORMED FROM EITHER THE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION OR CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT
r 21
22
OF JUSTICE IF ANY PROFILES THAT WE SUBMITTED TO THE
DATABASE RESULTED IN A MATCH.
r 23
24
Q. IF SOMEONE WERE TO COME BACK AS A CODIS HIT OR
A CODIS MATCH, DOES YOUR LAB HAVE PROTOCOLS IN
r 25
26
CONFIRMING THAT HIT OR MATCH?
A. YES. WE HAVE A PROTOCOL THAT STATES IF WE HAVE
r 27 A CODIS MATCH, INVESTIGATORS SHOULD OBTAIN A SAMPLE FROM
~ 28 THE INDIVIDUAL WHOM WE'VE MATCHED TO SO THAT WE CAN RUN

l
r
L
945
l
1 IT IN OUR LABORATORY FOR THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF RUNNING
l
2 THE TEST OURSELVES AND BEING ABLE TO DO THAT PHYSICAL l
3 COMPARISON OURSELVES, AND AS A SECONDARY REASON TO
4 CONFIRM THE HIT THE DOJ OBTAINED. l
5 Q. HOW DOES ONE GET INTO CODIS?
6 A. ESSENTIALLY YOU HAVE TO BE A CONVICTED OFFENDER
l
7
8
OR ARRESTED FOR A FELONY OR CERTAIN MISDEMEANORS THAT
WOULD REQUIRE YOU TO SUBMIT A SAMPLE FOR THE STATE
l
9 DATABASE.
l
10 Q. IS THIS SIMILAR TO TAKING FINGERPRINTS AND
11 THINGS OF THAT NATURE THAT'S BEEN USED IN THE PAST? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. SO IF A PERSON HAS BEEN CONVICTED OR ARRESTED
l.
14
15
OF CERTAIN FELONIES OR MISDEMEANORS, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT
THEIR DNA IS AVAILABLE THROUGH CODIS TO ALSO RUN AGAINST
l
16
17
KNOWN SAMPLES IN YOUR LAB, OR UNKNOWN SAMPLES, I SHOULD
SAY, IN YOUR LAB?
l
18 A. YES. WE TAKE UNKNOWN SAMPLES AND COMPARE IT TO l
19 THE CODIS DATABASE. AND ANYBODY WHO WAS IN THE CODIS
20 DATABASE COULD POTENTIALLY MATCH TO EVIDENCE THAT WE l
21 SUBMIT.
22 Q. SO GETTING BACK TO THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS
l
23 ANALYZED IN THIS CASE, LET'S START OFF WITH -- WE'LL GO
l J
24 PERSON BY PERSON. THE EASIEST GROUP WOULD BE -- WERE

25 THERE INDIVIDUALS FROM ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU 1
26 ANALYZED FOR DNA THAT WERE EITHER NOT MATCHES OR
27 EXCLUDED? l
28 A. YES. I WAS ABLE TO EXCLUDE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE
l
l
r 946
r 1 FROM BEING CONTRIBUTORS TO THE EVIDENCE.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
WHO ARE THOSE PEOPLE?
WELL, IT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT PARTICULAR ITEMS

r 4 OF EVIDENCE.
r 5
6
Q. LET'S START WITH WERE THERE SOME PEOPLE THAT
DIDN'T MATCH ON EVERYTHING?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO WERE THOSE PEOPLE?
r 9
10
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH MY NOTES FOR EVERY
ITEM TO FIGURE OUT WHO, SO --

[ 11 Q. WELL, TO SAVE TIME, WE'LL START ON THE OTHER
12 END. WE'LL GO PERSON BY PERSON OF WHO WAS INCLUDED, WHO

r 13 MATCHED. LET'S START WITH MOISES LOPEZ.
[ 14
15 MATCH?
WERE THERE ITEMS THAT HE WAS INCLUDED AS A
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, SEVERAL.
WHAT ITEMS ARE THOSE?
r 18
19
A. THE STAIN FROM THE BASEBALL HAT, ITEM 2, THAT I
TESTED, IT WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA SAMPLE THAT MATCHED

r 20 TO MOISES LOPEZ. THE APPARENT BLOODSTAIN FROM THE
GRASS, ITEM 6, THAT AGAIN WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA

r 21
22 PROFILE THAT MATCHED TO MOISES LOPEZ.
r 23
24
THE SWABS FROM THE LEFT AND RIGHT KNUCKLES OF
MOISES LOPEZ, AGAIN, WERE SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILES
r 25 THAT MATCHED TO MOISES LOPEZ. AGAIN, THE LEFT AND RIGHT
26 HAND FINGERNAIL SCRAPINGS WERE SINGLE SOURCE DNA

r 27 PROFILES THAT MATCHED TO MOISES LOPEZ.
28 JUROR NO. 9: YOUR HONOR --

r
r
947
l
l
1 THE COURT: YES, SIR. MR. JUROR IN SEAT 9,
2 YES, SIR? l
3 JUROR NO. 9: SIR, COULD THE WITNESS REFER TO
4 THE NUMBERS OF THE ITEMS? l
5 THE COURT: YES. WE HAD ITEM 2 WHICH WAS THE
6 CAP, I BELIEVE. ITEM 6, WHICH WAS THE GRASS. BUT IT
l
7
8
WOULD HELP. THANK YOU.
THOSE WERE ITEMS WHAT?
WITH RESPECT TO THE KNUCKLES,
l
9 THE WITNESS: ITEMS 29 AND 30. 29 WAS THE l
10 RIGHT KNUCKLES, 30 WAS THE LEFT KNUCKLES.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A l
12 SUGGESTION TOO. WE HAVE A CHART THAT HAS THE NUMBERS ON
13 IT WHERE THE ITEMS WERE FOUND. PERHAPS WE COULD PUT l
14
15
THAT CHART UP DURING THE TESTIMONY IF THAT'S ALL RIGHT
WITH MR. TROCHA.
l
16
17 THIS?
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF
l
18 MR. TROCHA: WHICH CHART ARE YOUR REFERRING TO? l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE ONE WITH THE NUMBERS OF
20 EACH ITEMS OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. l
21 MR. TROCHA: IT'S A PARTIAL CHART. THAT WOULD
22 BE FINE AS WELL.
l
23
24
THIS IS EXHIBIT NUMBER
l
25 MR. TROCHA: 241, YOUR HONOR. l
26 THE COURT: 241. THANK YOU.
27 SO WE HAD THE LEFT AND RIGHT FINGERNAIL l
28 SCRAPINGS. THOSE WERE ITEMS WHAT, PLEASE?
l
,
~
948
r 1 THE WITNESS: 31 AND 32. 31 IS THE RIGHT HAND
r 2
3
AND 32 IS THE LEFT HAND.
r 4 AND DID THAT CATCH US UP? LET'S SEE. ONE
r 5
6
MOMENT, PLEASE.
IT DID. THANK YOU. PROCEED PLEASE,
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA.
IN MOISES.
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT INCLUSIONS AS MATCHES
r 10
11
12
THE WITNESS: THE NEXT ITEM WE HAVE IS ITEM
NO. 40, THE APPARENT BLOODSTAIN FROM 4075 FRANKLIN
AVENUE. AGAIN, THAT WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILE
r 13 THAT MATCHED MOISES LOPEZ. 16-1, WHICH WAS THE APPARENT
r 14
15
BLOODSTAIN FROM THE RIGHT GLOVE, IT WAS A SINGLE SOURCE
DNA PROFILE THAT MATCHED MOISES LOPEZ.
r 16
17
17-1 WAS AN APPARENT BLOODSTAIN FROM THE LEFT
GLOVE, A SINGLE SOURCE PROFILE THAT MATCHED MOISES
r 18 LOPEZ. 16-2 WAS THE FIRST SWAB OF THE INSIDE OF THE
r
19 PALM OF THE RIGHT GLOVE, AND THAT I DEVELOPED A DNA
20 PROFILE. IT WAS A MIXTURE OF AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE.
THE PREDOMINANT DNA CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT MIXTURE
r 21
22 WAS MOISES LOPEZ. AND PREVIOUSLY I'D REFERRED TO
r 23
24
DIFFERENT INTENSITY LEVELS WE COULD SEE IN THE DNA
TYPES. A PREDOMINANT DNA CONTRIBUTOR IS A CONTRIBUTOR
r 25
26
WHOSE DNA TYPES ARE AT A LEVEL FAR ABOVE ANYBODY ELSE'S
IN THE DNA MIXTURE. AND SO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT
r 27 MUCH MORE DNA THAN SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE MIXTURE ARE
28 TERMED PREDOMINANT DNA CONTRIBUTORS.
r
r
949
l
l
1 17-2 WAS THE SWAB OF THE INNER PALM OF THE LEFT
2 GLOVE. THERE WAS A PREDOMINANT DNA PROFILE THAT AGAIN l
3 MATCHED MOISES LOPEZ.
4 BY MR. TROCHA: l
5 Q. IS THIS THE SAME FOR 16-3 AND 17-3 AS WELL?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY SIMILAR MATCHES OR INCLUSIONS
WITH DANIEL ZEPEDA?
l
9 A. YES, I DID. FS9A IS A SWAB OF A BEER BOTTLE, l
10 AND I OBTAINED A SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILE THAT MATCHED
l
11
12
13
DANIEL ZEPEDA.
ITEM 37-1, WHICH WAS A BLOODSTAIN FROM THE LEFT
SHOULDER OF THE T-SHIRT, THAT, AGAIN, MATCHED DANIEL
, J
14
15
ZEPEDA. THE APPARENT BLOODSTAIN FROM THE T-SHIRT ITEM
43B-1 WAS AGAIN A DNA PROFILE -- SINGLE SOURCE DNA
l
16 PROFILE THAT MATCHED DANIEL ZEPEDA.
l
17 ITEM 44-1, APPARENT BLOODSTAIN FROM THE SHIRT
18 FOUND AT 4075 FRANKLIN AVENUE WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA l
19 PROFILE THAT MATCHED DANIEL ZEPEDA. AND 44-2 WAS A
20 STAIN FROM ITEM 44 AGAIN. THAT WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA l
21 PROFILE THAT MATCHED TO DANIEL ZEPEDA.
22 Q. WHAT ABOUT ITEM 37-2, THE COLLAR OF THE
l
23
24
STAFFORD T-SHIRT?
A. THE COLLAR AREA OF THAT SHIRT I OBTAINED A
l
25 MIXTURE OF DNA FROM AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE, AND I l
26 INCLUDED VICTOR RAMOS AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT DNA
27 MIXTURE. SIRIA FORD COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED AS A l
28 POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTOR, EVELYN SOTO COULD NOT BE
l
,
r 950
r 1 EXCLUDED AS A POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTOR, AND MR. RUIZ
r 2 COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED AS A POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTOR
r 3
4
TO THAT.
Q. DID YOU SAY DANIEL ZEPEDA COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED
r 5
6
AS WELL?
A. NO. SIRIA FORD, EVELYN SOTO AND MR. RUIZ.
r 7
8
Q. MOVING ON TO VICTOR RAMOS, DID HE MATCH -- YOU
SAID VICTOR RAMOS WAS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO 37-2.
r 9
10
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
IS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR THE SAME AS MATCHING?
r 11 A. ESSENTIALLY A MATCH WE REFER TO WHEN WE HAVE A
r 12
13
SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILE WHERE THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY
ABOUT DNA TYPES. ONCE WE HAVE A DNA MIXTURE, THEN AGAIN
r 14
15
WE WON'T SAY -- WE WON'T USE THE TERM MATCH.
WHAT WE'LL DO IS LOOK TO SEE IF THE PERSON
r 16
17
COULD POSSIBLY BE A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR OR POSSIBLY A
MINOR CONTRIBUTOR. AND IF THEY AREN'T A MAJOR OR MINOR
r 18 CONTRIBUTOR, THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY EXCLUDED.
r 19
20
Q. DID VICTOR RAMOS MATCH OR WAS HE INCLUDED IN
ANY OTHER ITEMS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, HE WAS.
WHAT ELSE?
r 23
24
A. ITEM 14, THE APPARENT VOMIT FROM THE PARK, THAT
WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILE WHICH MATCHED VICTOR
r 25 RAMOS. AND THE APPARENT VOMIT ACTUALLY I HAD TO SPLIT

26 INTO TWO SAMPLES BECAUSE OF THE SIZE AND THE NATURE OF
r 27 THE SAMPLE ITSELF AND I PROCESSED THEM BOTH IN PARALLEL
AND I GOT THE SAME RESULT FOR BOTH.
r 28
r
951
l
l
1 SO 14-1 -- I'M SORRY -- 14 AND 14-2 WERE BOTH
2 SAMPLES FROM THE APPARENT VOMIT AND BOTH PRODUCED SINGLE l
3 SOURCE DNA PROFILES THAT MATCHED VICTOR RAMOS.
4 Q. MOVING ON TO SIRIA FORD, DID SHE MATCH OR WAS l
5 SHE INCLUDED IN ANY OF THESE ITEMS?
6 A. YES, SHE WAS.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHICH ITEMS?
FS12A, SWAB OF A BEER CAN, THERE WAS A
l
9 PREDOMINANT DNA PROFILE THAT MATCHED SIRIA FORD. AND l
10 FS15-A, A SWAB OF ANOTHER BEER CAN WHICH WAS A SINGLE
11 SOURCE DNA PROFILE THAT MATCHED SIRIA FORD. l
12 Q. DID MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCH ANY OF THESE ITEMS OR
13 WAS HE INCLUDED IN ANY OF THESE ITEMS? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES, HE WAS.
WHICH ITEMS?
l
16 A. FS8A, SWAB OF A BEER BOTTLE. IT WAS A SINGLE
l
17 SOURCE DNA PROFILE AND MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS INCLUDED AS THE
18 SOURCE OF THAT DNA. FS10A WAS A SWAB OF BEER BOTTLE. l
19 AGAIN THERE WAS A SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILE WHICH
20 MATCHED THE DNA PROFILE FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ. l
21 AND THEN ITEMS 16-2. 16-2, I SAID THAT
22 PREVIOUSLY THE PREDOMINANT DNA PROFILE WAS THAT OF
l
23
24
MOISES LOPEZ. MR. DOMINGUEZ COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED AS A
POSSIBLE MINOR DNA CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT SAMPLE.
l
25 AND 16-3, WHICH IS THE SECOND ANALYSIS OF THE l
26 INTERIOR OF THE GLOVE, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ALSO INCLUDED
27 AS A POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT SAMPLE, AS WELL l
28 AS ITEM 17-3, THE SECOND ANALYSIS OF THE INTERIOR OF THE
l
,
r 952
r 1 LEFT GLOVE. AGAIN, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS INCLUDED AS A

r 2 POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT SAMPLE.
r
3 Q. FINALLY, WE SKIPPED OVER FS13A, THE SWAB FROM
4 BEER BOTTLE --
r 5
6
A.
Q.
BEER CAN.
BEER CAN, NO. 13.
r 7
8 A.
DID YOU FIND A DNA PROFILE ON THAT ITEM?
YES, I DID OBTAIN A DNA PROFILE FROM FS13A.
r 9 Q. WAS IT A SINGLE SOURCE?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
IT WAS.
WERE YOU ABLE TO MATCH IT TO ANY OF THE PEOPLE
r 12
13
WE MENTIONED?
A. NO. AT THIS POINT IT WAS UNKNOWN.
r 14
15
Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE GLOVES, MR. MONTPETIT.
YOU DID MULTIPLE ANALYSES ON THESE GLOVES,
r 16
17
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 18 Q. WITH THESE GLOVES WE HAVE A LEFT AND A RIGHT,
r 19
20
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING YOU DID WITH THESE
GLOVES WHEN YOU FIRST RECEIVED THEM?
r 23
24
A. I DID A VISUAL EXAMINATION AND OBSERVED THAT
THERE WAS BLOODSTAINING OR POTENTIAL BLOODSTAINING ON
r 25 THEM.
r 26
27
Q. AFTER SEEING WHAT YOU SUSPECTED TO BE
BLOODSTAINING, WHAT DID YOU DO TO CONFIRM WHETHER OR NOT
r 28 THERE WAS BLOODSTAINING?
r
953
1
l
1 A. WE HAVE A CHEMICAL TEST WHICH IS A VERY FAST
2 COLOR TEST THAT -- IT'S NOT A CONFIRMATORY TEST FOR l
3 BLOOD, BUT A POSITIVE RESULT WITH THAT TEST IS A STRONG
4 INDICATION THAT BLOOD IS PRESENT ON AN ITEM. AND SO I l
5 PERFORMED THAT PRELIMINARY TEST FOR BLOOD ON THE STAINS
6 I SUSPECTED OF BEING BLOOD ON THE GLOVES.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THAT PRELIMINARY TEST?
THEY CAME BACK POSITIVE.
l
9 Q. SO ONCE YOU HAD A CONFIRMATION THAT IT WAS l
10 BLOOD ON THE GLOVES, DID YOU ATTEMPT TO FIND HOW
11 EXTENSIVE THE STAINING WAS ON THE SURFACE? 1
12 A. I DID A VISUAL EXAMINATION TO TRY AND SEE WHERE
13 I COULD DISTINCTLY SEE VISUAL EVIDENCE OF STAINING. l
14
15
Q. DID YOU USE ANY ALTERNATIVE LIGHT SOURCES,
THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
l
16
17
A. FOR BLOODSTAINING, WE JUST USE HIGH INTENSITY
WHITE LIGHT.
l
18 Q. AND WHAT DOES THIS DO TO HELP YOU SEE IF THERE l
19 ARE BLOODSTAINS ON THESE GLOVES OR NOT?
20 A. WELL, THE GLOVES ARE BLACK, AND IT HELPS TO l
21 INCREASE THE CONTRAST. IT GIVES -- YOU KNOW, ANY SORT
22 OF CLOSE WORK YOU'RE GOING TO BE DOING, BRIGHTER LIGHT
l
23
24
IS ALWAYS HELPFUL. IT HELPS ME TO TRY AND DISTINGUISH
BETWEEN THE BLACK COLOR AND THE RED SHEEN OF POTENTIAL
l
25 BLOODSTAINS. l
26 Q. WHY DID YOU WANT TO GET AN IDEA WHERE THE
27 BLOODSTAINS WERE PRIOR TO CONDUCTING ANY DNA SWABS? l
28 A. ESSENTIALLY I WANTED TO TRY AND FIGURE OUT THE
1
,
r 954
r 1 EXTENT OF THE BLOODSTAINING SO THAT IF I TAKE A SAMPLE
r 2 THAT I'M TRYING TO DETERMINE WHO MIGHT BE WEARING THE

3 GLOVES, I CAN AVOID THE AREAS THAT HAVE POTENTIAL
r 4 BLOODSTAINING.
r 5
6
Q. RIGHT NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EXTERIOR OF
THE GLOVES BEFORE TURNING THEM INSIDE OUT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ONCE YOU'D GOTTEN PAST STEP ONE OF DETERMINING
r 9 WHERE THE BLOODSTAINING IS ON THE OUTSIDE, TAKING A SWAB

10 OF SUSPECTED BLOODSTAINING, DID YOU ALSO TAKE A SWAB OF
r 11 THE SUSPECTED BLOODSTAINS FOR DNA ANALYSIS?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
AND WE HEARD THE RESULTS AS YOU JUST ANNOUNCED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU THEN MOVE ON TO THE INTERIOR OF THE
r 16
17
GLOVES?
A. YES. THE NEXT THING I WANTED TO DETERMINE WAS
r 18 TO SEE IF I COULD FIGURE OUT WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN WEARING
r 19
20
THE GLOVES. AND SO TO DO THAT, I TOOK A SWAB OF THE
INTERIOR PALM AREAS OF THE GLOVES.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 243, PAGES FROM ANALYTICAL
r 21
22 RECORD, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A PACKET RIGHT NOW. IT'S
r 25 FOUR PAGES THAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 243. COULD

26 YOU THUMB THROUGH THOSE FOR A MINUTE, SEE IF YOU
r 27 RECOGNIZE THEM.
28 A. I DO.
r
r
955
1
l
1 Q. WHAT ARE THEY?
2 A. THEY ARE PAGES FROM MY ANALYTICAL RECORD. THE l
3 FIRST TWO PAGES ARE FROM THE ANALYSIS I DID ON THE
4 GLOVES, ITEMS 16 AND 17 IN OCTOBER OF 2008, AND THE LAST l
5 TWO PAGES IN THE PACKET ARE THE PAGES FROM MY ANALYTICAL
6 RECORD FROM MY REANALYSIS IN JANUARY OF THIS YEAR.
l
7
8
Q. THE FIRST TWO PAGES, DID YOU DOCUMENT AT THAT
TIME PHOTOGRAPHICALLY AND ALSO THROUGH WORDS WHERE THESE
l
~
9 STAINS WERE? J
10 A. YES. I DOCUMENTED EXACTLY WHERE I FOUND
11 POTENTIAL BLOODSTAINS, AREAS THAT TESTED POSITIVE FOR l
12 BLOOD, AND ALSO THE AREA THAT I SAMPLED FOR THE
13 ANALYSIS. l
14
15
Q. THIS WOULD BE PAGE 1 FROM PEOPLE'S 243.
HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH OF A GLOVE WITH A ZIPPER, SEVERAL
WE
l
16
17
YELLOW MARKINGS, AND ON THE BOTTOM IT SAYS "PORTION OF
l
STAIN COLLECTED FOR DNA ANALYSIS" AS ITEM 16-1?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 Q. ARE WE LOOKING AT THE EXTERIOR OF THIS LEATHER
20 GLOVE? l
21 A. YES, WE ARE.
22 Q. WHAT IS THE YELLOW AND THE ARROWS SIGNIFICANT
l
23
24
OF IN THIS CASE?
A. THE AREAS CIRCLED IN YELLOW ARE THE AREAS THAT
l
25 I VISUALLY OBSERVED RED BROWN STAINING THAT I FELT WAS l
26 CONSISTENT WITH BLOODSTAINING, AND ALSO THE ARROWS ARE
27 INDICATING THAT THOSE SAME AREAS WHERE I OBSERVED THE l
28 STAINING TESTED POSITIVE WITH THE PRELIMINARY TEST FOR
l
,
r 956
r 1 BLOOD THAT WE USE.
r 2 Q. WE'VE BEEN DESCRIBING THESE GLOVES AS BLACK
r 3
4
LEATHER GLOVES, CORRECT?
A. I DESCRIBED THEM AS BLACK LEATHER OR
r 5
6
LEATHER-LIKE GLOVES.
Q. WHAT MADE YOU THINK THAT THEY WERE LEATHER?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
THEY LOOKED AND APPEARED TO BE LEATHER.
HAVE YOU WORN LEATHER GLOVES IN THE PAST?
r 9 A. YES, I HAVE.
10 Q. DID YOU DO ANY FORENSIC TEST TO ENSURE THESE
r 11 WERE COWHIDE VERSUS A FAKE KIND OF LEATHER?
r 12
13
A. NO. I JUST ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW -- I GUESS I
COVERED MY BASES BY SAYING BLACK LEATHER OR LEATHER-LIKE
r 14
15
GLOVES.
Q. DO THESE GLOVES HAVE AN INNER LINER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THEY DID NOT, NO.
AND WHEN I REFER TO AN INNER LINER, SOMETIMES
r 18 GLOVES HAVE A CLOTH OR FUR TYPE OF INTERIOR.
19 A. THOSE DID NOT.

r
L 20 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH SOMETHING LIKE BATTING
r 21
22
GLOVES?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. HOW WOULD THESE COMPARE TO THE THICK AND FEEL
OF BATTING GLOVES?
r 25 A. I'D SAY THEY WERE PROBABLY A LITTLE THICKER,
BUT THEY WERE REGULAR DRIVING GLOVES, I GUESS.

r
26
27 Q. WITH THE ZIPPER ON THE EXTERIOR?
28 A. YES.
r
r
957
,,
)
1 Q. DID YOU DO THE SAME EXTERIOR ANALYSIS TO ITEM
2 17? l
3 A. YES, I DID.
4 Q. TO THE RIGHT GLOVE? l
5 A. YES, I DID.
6 Q. WAS THAT DOCUMENTED AS WELL?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES. ITEM 17 IS THE LEFT GLOVE.
THE LEFT GLOVE. I'M SORRY. I WAS LOOKING AT
l
9 THE RIGHT GLOVE AND THINKING OF THE LEFT. l
10 LOOKING NOW ON THE TELEVISION SCREEN, IS THIS
11 PAGE 2 FROM PEOPLE'S 243? l
12 A. IT IS.
13 Q. IS THIS DOCUMENTING YOUR EXTERIOR EXAMINATION l
14
15
OF THE LEFT GLOVE?
A. YES. THE AREA CIRCLED IN YELLOW IN THE PHOTO
l
16
17
ARE AREAS THAT I OBSERVED THE RED BROWN STAINING AND
l
AREAS THAT TESTED POSITIVE WITH THE PRELIMINARY TEST FOR
18 BLOOD, AND THE AREA CIRCLED IN WHITE WAS THE AREA THAT I l
19 INDICATED THAT I TOOK A SAMPLE FOR DNA TESTING.
20 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU MOVED ON TO THE INTERIOR OF BOTH l
21 OF THESE GLOVES, ON THE INSIDES, HOW DID YOU GET TO THE
22 INSIDE OF THE GLOVES WHEN YOU WERE CONDUCTING THE TEST
l
23
24
FOR 16 AND 17-2?
A. ESSENTIALLY I KEPT THE GLOVES INTACT. I TRY
l
25 NOT TO ALTER ANY EVIDENCE OR I TRY TO ALTER EVIDENCE AS l
26 LITTLE AS POSSIBLE WHEN I CONDUCT MY ANALYSIS.
27 SO ORIGINALLY I JUST TURNED THE GLOVES INSIDE l
28 OUT AS BEST AS I COULD, AND THEN I PERFORMED AN ANALYSIS
l
,
r 958
r 1 OF LOOKING AT THE INSIDE OF THE GLOVE AND THEN SWABBING
r 2 IT.
r Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU CUT THEM OPEN AT THAT TIME?

3
4 A. LIKE I SAY, WE TRY TO PRESERVE THE EVIDENCE AS
5 IT ARRIVES TO THE LAB AS MUCH AS WE CAN.
r 6 Q. IS THIS ALSO BECAUSE IT GIVES OTHER PARTIES THE
r 7
8
CHANCE TO RETEST THE GLOVES OR SEE THE GLOVES IN THAT
ORIGINAL STATE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
ABSOLUTELY.
IS THIS PART OF THE PROTOCOLS OF THE SAN DIEGO
r 11 POLICE DEPARTMENT CRIME LAB?
r 12
13
A. YES. AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WE TRY TO MAINTAIN
THE INTEGRITY OF THE EVIDENCE AS WE RECEIVED IT.
r 14
15
Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO GET TO CERTAIN
PORTIONS OF THE GLOVE SUCH AS THE FINGERS OR
r 16
17
FINGERTIPS?
A. I THOUGHT THAT IN MY ANALYSIS I TOOK A
r 18 SUFFICIENT AREA OF THE GLOVE TO GET A DNA RESULT FROM

19 IT.
r 20 Q. DID YOU CONDUCT A DNA ANALYSIS IN COMPARISON TO
r 21
22
16-2 AND 16-3?
A. HAVE I LOOKED AT THE RESULTS FROM 16-2 AND
r 23
24
COMPARED THEM TO THE RESULTS TO 16-3?
Q. I'M SORRY. 16-2 AND 17-2.
r 25
26
A. I LOOKED AT THE RESULTS FROM BOTH OF THOSE
SAMPLES, YES.
r 27 Q. NOW, WE HEARD YOUR TESTIMONY THAT MOISES LOPEZ
28 WAS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO BOTH OF THOSE GLOVES,
r
r
959
,
l
1 CORRECT?
2 A. HE WAS THE SOURCE OF THE BLOODSTAINS THAT WERE l
3 FOUND ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE GLOVES, AND HE WAS THE
4 PREDOMINANT CONTRIBUTOR TO THE MIXTURES THAT I OBTAINED l
5 FROM THE INSIDE OF THE GLOVES.
6 Q. WHAT KIND OF MIXTURE DID YOU FIND IN 16-2?
l
7
8
A.
PEOPLE.
IN 16-2 WAS A MIXTURE FROM AT LEAST THREE
l
9 Q. COULD IT ALSO BE A MIXTURE OF AT LEAST FOUR l
10 PEOPLE?
11 A. ABSOLUTELY IT COULD, YES. l
12 Q. WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THAT MIXTURE AS IT
13 PERTAINS TO FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ? l
14
15
A. FOR 16-2, MR. DOMINGUEZ COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED
AS A POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE DNA MIXTURE
l
16 THERE.
l
17 Q. HOW MANY MARKERS WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ'S DNA
18 PROFILE PRESENT AT 16-2? l
19 A. IF I COULD PLEASE REFER TO MY REPORT --
20 Q. IF YOU COULD, PLEASE REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION. l
21 A. I BELIEVE HE WAS INCLUDED AT 15 OUT OF THE 16
22 DNA MARKERS.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WAS THIS 16-2?
YES.
l
25 Q. WAS HE ALSO INCLUDED IN 17-2? l
26 A. IN 17-2 I BELIEVE HE WAS -- THERE WASN'T ENOUGH
27 INFORMATION IN 17-2 TO MAKE ANY SORT OF COMPARISONS TO l
28 MINOR CONTRIBUTORS.
l
,
r 960
r 1 Q. THIS WAS YOUR INITIAL ANALYSIS DONE ON 16-2 AND
r 2 17-2?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SINCE THAT TIME, YOU TESTIFIED IN A HEARING IN
r 5
6
THIS CASE, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DEFENSE COUNSEL ASKED YOU QUESTIONS?
YES.
r 9
10
Q. YOU ALSO GOT TO HEAR SOME EVIDENCE ABOUT
ANALYSIS OR AN EVALUATION OF YOUR ANALYSIS BY AN
r 11 EXTERIOR OR THIRD PARTY CRIME LAB, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
A PERSON BY THE NAME OF VINCE MILLER.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES, I BELIEVE HE WAS THE AUTHOR OF THE REPORT.
CAME TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT VINCE MILLER WAS
r 16
17
NOT ASKED TO RETEST THESE GLOVES, CORRECT?
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE WAS NOT. HE JUST DID AN
r 18 EVALUATION OF MY WORK ON THE GLOVES.
r 19
20
Q. AND YOU WERE ALSO SUPPLIED WITH INFORMATION
THAT THE DEFENSE DID NOT SEEK TO RETEST THESE GLOVES.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I KNOW THAT THEY DID NOT RETEST THE GLOVES.
AS A RESULT OF THAT, WERE YOU ASKED TO RETEST
r 23
24
THESE GLOVES?
A. YES, I WAS.
r 25 Q. IN RETESTING THESE GLOVES, DID YOU CUT THEM
r 26
27
OPEN AT THIS TIME?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. WAS THIS DONE WITH -- AT THE REQUEST OF MY
r
961
,
l
1 OFFICE AND THE PROSECUTION TEAM?
2 A. YES, IT WAS. l
3 Q. DID YOU DOCUMENT HOW YOU CUT THOSE GLOVES OPEN?
4 A. YES, I DID. l
5 Q. SIMILAR TO HOW WE'VE LOOKED AT THE FIRST TWO
6 PAGES OF PEOPLE'S 243?
l
7
8
A. YES. WHENEVER I DO AN ANALYSIS ON ANY ITEM OF
EVIDENCE, I ALWAYS DOCUMENT EXACTLY WHAT THAT ANALYSIS
l
9 ENTAILS. AND I DID THAT IN THIS CASE. l
10 Q. I'M GOING TO MOVE ON TO PAGE 3 OF PEOPLE'S 243.
11 YOU CAN SEE AT THE TOP A SMALLER PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTING 1
12 YELLOW CIRCLES.
13 IS THIS TO MEMORIALIZE WHAT YOU DID IN A l
14
15
PREVIOUS TIME IN TERMS OF THE STAINING OF BLOOD?
A. YES. SO I HAD THE INFORMATION, I TOOK A PHOTO
1
16 OF THE GLOVES AS I RECEIVED THEM BEFORE I DID ANY SORT
l
17 OF ANALYSIS ON THEM, AND BASED ON MY PREVIOUS ANALYSIS I
18 INDICATED WHERE I HAD FOUND BLOODSTAINING. l
19 Q. THE LOWER IMAGE, THE LARGER IMAGE, IS THIS THE
20 INTERIOR OF THE RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE SWABBED UNDER 16-3? l
21 A. YES. IT'S NOT A TERRIBLY GOOD PHOTO OF IT, BUT
22 THAT IS A PHOTO OF THE GLOVE AFTER I CUT IT OPEN.
l
23
24
WHAT I ESSENTIALLY DID WAS IT HAD A TOP PORTION
THAT COVERED THE TOP OF THE HAND AND A BOTTOM PORTION
l
25 THAT COVERED THE PALM AND STITCHING ALL ALONG WHERE l
26 THOSE TWO PIECES OF MATERIAL MEET. I BASICALLY UNDID
l
27
28
ALL THE STITCHING AND OPENED IT UP ALONG THE SEAM ALONG
THE EXTERIOR OF THE HAND.
,
,
r 962
r 1 Q. WHERE EXACTLY DID YOU SWAB IN THE INTERIOR OF
r 2 THIS GLOVE?
r
3 A. FOR ITEM 16, I TRIED TO AVOID THE AREAS THAT
4 WERE OPPOSITE AREAS THAT I DETECTED BLOOD ON THE
r 5
6
OUTSIDE, AND THEN I SWABBED THE -- ESSENTIALLY THE PALM
AND BOTH SIDES OF THE INSIDE SURFACE OF THE KNUCKLE
r 7
8
AREAS, MIDDLE RING AND MIDDLE FINGERS WERE SWABBED.
Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SWAB AREAS THAT WERE
r 9
10
INACCESSIBLE BEFORE?
A. YES. THE END OF THE FINGERS WERE KIND OF
r 11 INACCESSIBLE TO ME BEFORE, AND I WAS ABLE TO DO A MORE
r 12
13
EFFICIENT JOB OF SWABBING THEM AFTER I CUT OPEN THE
GLOVES.
r 14
15
Q. WHEN YOU CONDUCTED THE ANALYSIS ON THIS SWAB,
WHAT WERE THE RESULTS?
r 16
17
A. I OBTAINED A MIXTURE OF DNA FROM AT LEAST FOUR
PEOPLE FROM THE SWAB OF THE INSIDE OF THE GLOVES, AND
r 18
19
MOISES LOPEZ WAS AGAIN INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MAJOR
CONTRIBUTOR TO THIS MIXTURE, AND I WAS ALSO -- I
r 20 INCLUDED MR. DOMINGUEZ AND JOSUE GUTIERREZ AS POSSIBLE
r 21
22
MINOR CONTRIBUTORS TO THE DNA MIXTURE.
Q. IN TERMS OF FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, HOW MANY
r 23
24
MARKERS OR HOW MANY MARKERS WAS HIS DNA PRESENT IN?
A. HE WAS REPRESENTED AT ALL MARKERS THAT WERE
r 25
26
TESTED.
Q. WE'LL GET BACK TO THE OTHERS WITH JOSUE
r 27 GUTIERREZ IN A MOMENT. I WANT TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION
r 28 NOW ON PAGE 4, PEOPLE'S 243. THIS WOULD PERTAIN TO THE
r
963
1
LEFT-HANDED GLOVE; IS THAT CORRECT, MR. MONTPETIT?
l
1
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. AGAIN WE HAVE THE SMALL PHOTOGRAPH ON THE TOP
4 TO SIGNIFY THE PRIOR WORK YOU DID IN IDENTIFYING WHERE l
5 THE BLOODSTAINING ON THE EXTERIOR WAS.
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. THEN WITH THE LOWER LARGER PICTURE, IS THIS THE
INTERIOR OF THE LEFT-HANDED GLOVE AFTER YOU CUT IT OPEN?
l
9 A. YES, IT IS. l
10 Q. IS THIS CUT IN THE SAME MANNER THAT YOU CUT
11 OPEN THE RIGHT HANDED GLOVE? l
12 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
13 Q. WHAT AREAS WERE SWABBED ON THE INTERIOR OF THE l
14
15
LEFT-HANDED GLOVE?
A. BOTH SIDES OF THE FINGERS, THE PALM AND THE
1
16 INSIDE SURFACE OF THE KNUCKLE AREAS OF THE MIDDLE RING
l
17 AND MIDDLE FINGERS WERE SWABBED.
18 Q. IS THIS AGAIN AN AREA THAT WAS INACCESSIBLE TO 1
19 YOU FOR 16 AND 17-2?
20 A. I HAD BETTER ACCESS TO IT AFTER CUTTING OPEN 1
21 THE GLOVES.
22 Q. WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF YOUR ANALYSIS OF THIS
l
23
24
SWABBING?
A. FOR THE INSIDE SURFACE OF THE LEFT GLOVE, 17-3,
l
25 IT WAS A MIXTURE AGAIN OF AT LEAST FOUR PEOPLE. MOISES l
26 LOPEZ WAS INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE DNA CONTRIBUTOR TO THE
27 MIXTURE, AND FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ WAS INCLUDED AS A l
28 POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE MIXTURE.
1
,
r 964
r 1 AND THEN THERE WAS A VARIETY OF PEOPLE THAT
r 2 COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED AS POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTORS AS

3 WELL. THOSE WERE ROBERTO RUIZ, CHRISTIAN AMBRIZ, SIRIA
r 4 FORD, TOMAS LOPEZ, VICTOR RAMOS, ANDRES LOPEZ AND JOSUE
r 5
6
GUTIERREZ COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED AS POSSIBLE MINOR
CONTRIBUTORS.
r 7
8
Q. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING CAN'T BE
EXCLUDED VERSUS INCLUDED.
r 9
10
A. ESSENTIALLY IT IS THE LEVEL OF INFORMATION
WHICH I HAD TO MAKE THAT CONCLUSION. THE LESS

r 11 INFORMATION I HAVE, I TEND TO MAKE CONCLUSIONS THAT
12 SUGGEST SOMEBODY CANNOT BE EXCLUDED.

r 13 THE MORE INFORMATION THAT SUGGESTS THAT THEY'RE
r 14
15
THERE, I USE LANGUAGE SUCH AS INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE
CONTRIBUTOR.
r 16
17
Q. BECAUSE SOMEBODY CAN'T BE EXCLUDED, DOES THAT
NECESSARILY AUTOMATICALLY MEAN THEY'RE INCLUDED?
r 18 A. IT PRETTY MUCH MEANS THAT THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH
19 INFORMATION TO CONCLUSIVELY EXCLUDE THEM FROM THAT

r 20 SAMPLE.
r 21
22
Q. IN TERMS OF BOTH OF THESE GLOVES, DID YOU
INCLUDE MR. DOMINGUEZ AS A CONTRIBUTOR?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
AND AS YOU SAID BEFORE, IT IS A MINOR
r 25
26
CONTRIBUTOR?
A. YES.
r 27 Q. HOW MANY -- ON THE 17-3, HOW MANY MARKERS FOR
r 28 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S DNA PRESENT?
r
965
,
A. I BELIEVE HE WAS THERE AT 15 OUT OF 16 MARKERS
l
1
2 FOR THAT SAMPLE. 1
3 Q. THE OTHER ONE WAS 16 OUT OF 16, CORRECT?
4 A. CORRECT. l
5 Q. YOU'VE INCLUDED HIM ALSO IN THE LEFT-HAND GLOVE
6 EVEN THOUGH IT'S 15 OUT OF 16.
l
7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
HOW CAN THAT BE?
l
9 A. AS I EXPLAINED PREVIOUSLY, SIMPLY MISSING A DNA l
10 MARKER IS NOT NECESSARILY A REASON TO EXCLUDE SOMEBODY.
11 IT DEPENDS WHERE THAT PARTICULAR DNA TYPE IS MISSING IN l
12 THE PROFILE AS A WHOLE.
13 AND, IF, FOR EXAMPLE IN THIS CASE, I BELIEVE l
14
15
THE MARKER WHERE MR. DOMINGUEZ IS MISSING A DNA TYPE IS
ONE OF THE MARKERS THAT AMPLIFIED THE LEAST ROBUSTLY, SO
1
16 THE RESULTS THAT I HAVE ARE LESS INTENSE AT THAT MARKER
l
17 OVERALL.
18 AND SO, SCIENTIFICALLY, TO ME, TO BE MISSING AT l
19 THAT MARKER WASN'T NECESSARILY A GROUND FOR EXCLUSION.
20 Q. LOOKING AT YOUR REPORT, YOU SAY IT WAS MISSING l
21 ON THIS GLOVE AT ONE MARKER.
22 WHAT MARKER WAS THAT?
l
23
24
A. I BELIEVE IT'S A MARKER WE REFER TO AS FGA.
THE COURT: THAT'S ITEM 17-3?
1
25 MR. TROCHA: THIS IS JUST HIS REPORT WHICH IS l
26 NOT -- I'M SORRY. YEAH. ITEM 17-3, YOUR HONOR.
27 THE COURT: THE QUESTION AND ANSWER REFER TO l
28 ITEM 17-3.
l
,
r 966

r_ 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3
r
Q. IN LOOKING AT YOUR REPORT, MR. DOMINGUEZ IS 25,
4 26 AT FGA; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THAT IS CORRECT.
IN LOOKING AT 17-3, I SEE THE NUMBERS 25 AND 26
r 7
8
ARE THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
I WANT TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION TO D18S51.
GOT IT.
r 11 Q. DO YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ AS A 14, 25 AT THAT
r 12
13
MARKER?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. HOWEVER, WHEN I LOOK AT 17-3, I SEE A 14 BUT
THERE ISN'T A 25.
r 16
17
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
SAID IT WAS THE FGA MARKER.

I WAS MISTAKEN BEFORE WHEN I
IT WAS ACTUALLY THE MARKER
r 18 D18S51 WHERE HE WAS MISSING A DNA TYPE.
r 19
20
Q.
D2S1338.
AS WELL AS I WANT TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON
r 21
22 A.
DO YOU SEE THAT MARKER?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
MARKER?
DO YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ IS A 23, 25 AT THAT
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q. YET WHEN I LOOK AT 17-3, THERE IS A 23 BUT NOT
A 25 PRESENT.
r 28 A. THAT'S CORRECT. SO HE WAS ACTUALLY AT 14 OUT
r
967
1
l
1 OF 16.
2 Q. WHAT WOULD -- IN SPITE OF BEING A 14 OUT OF 16, l
3 YOU STILL INCLUDED HIM, THOUGH, HOWEVER.
4 A. YES. THOSE TWO MARKERS ARE SOME OF THE LARGER 1
5 DNA MARKERS THAT WE TEST, AND IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR THE
l
6 RESULTS AT THOSE MARKERS NOT TO BE AS INTENSE AS OTHER
,
,
7 DNA MARKERS.
8 AND AS A RESULT OF BEING MISSING THERE BUT
9 PRESENT EVERYWHERE ELSE, IT IN MY MIND DID NOT
10 CONSTITUTE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO EXCLUDE HIM FROM THAT
11 SAMPLE. 1
12 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT THE MARKER'S LARGER OR
13 SMALLER? 1
14
15
A. WELL, TO PERFORM THE TESTING THAT WE DO, WE
PERFORM TESTS ON 16 DNA MARKERS, AND ESSENTIALLY WE HAVE
l
16 AN INSTRUMENT THAT CAN DETECT A CERTAIN RANGE OF
l
17 FRAGMENT SIZES OF DNA, AND SOME ARE SMALLER AND SOME ARE
18 LARGER. l
19 AND THE COMPANY THAT WE GET OUR TESTS FROM
20 PACKAGES THESE 16 DNA MARKERS ACROSS FOUR DISTINCT l
21 COLORS ALONG THIS LIMITED SIZE RANGE. AND SO IN ORDER
22 TO DO THAT, SOME OF THEM ARE SMALLER IN SIZE, AND THOSE
1
23
24
GENERALLY AMPLIFY OR COPY MORE EFFICIENTLY, AND THE
LARGER ONES OR LARGER FRAGMENTS, THEY TEND TO COPY LESS
1
25 EFFICIENTLY. l
26 AND ESSENTIALLY ALL THE 16 MARKERS ARE BROKEN
27 UP BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT SIZE RANGES, AND THE TWO WE'RE l
28 TALKING ABOUT IN THIS CASE JUST HAPPENED TO BE ON THE
1
,
r 968
r 1 LARGER SIZE RANGE.
r 2
3
Q. IS THERE A TERM YOU USE WHEN AN ALLELE DOESN'T
SHOW UP AT A MARKER BUT YOU BELIEVE THE PERSON IS
r 4 INCLUDED IN THAT MARKER?
r 5
6
A. YES. WE CALL THAT PHENOMENON DROPOUT, WHERE A
DNA DROPPED BELOW THE DETECTION THRESHOLD OR WAS NOT
r 7
8
PRESENT IN THAT SAMPLE.
Q. WHAT IS A DETECTION THRESHOLD?
r 9
10
A. A DETECTION THRESHOLD IS A
SCIENTIFICALLY-DERIVED-AT THRESHOLD ABOVE WHICH WE HAVE
r 11 CONFIDENCE IN THE RESULTS THAT WE DETECT BEING DNA.
r 12
13
EVERY TEST HAS, YOU KNOW, ARTIFACTS OR THINGS
THAT GET DETECTED WHICH AREN'T NECESSARILY FROM THE
[ 14 COMPONENT THAT YOU'RE TESTING FOR. IN THIS CASE IT

15 WOULD BE DNA. WE ESTABLISH OUR THRESHOLD BASED ON
r 16
17
SCIENTIFIC WORK THAT GIVES US CONFIDENCE THAT ABOVE THAT
LEVEL, WHAT WE ARE DETECTING IN THAT SAMPLE IS FROM DNA.
~
( 18 AND SO WE'VE DONE VALIDATION STUDIES IN OUR
r 19
20
LABORATORY TO SET OUR THRESHOLDS.
THE COURT: LET US TAKE A RECESS. WE'LL
r 21
22
REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DETECTION THRESHOLD.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE LEAVE THE
r 23
24
NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.
MINUTES.
WE'LL RECONVENE IN 15
r 25 THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.

(MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.}
r
26
27 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'RE A COUPLE OF
r 28 MINUTES AHEAD OF WHEN I HAD SAID, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
r
969
1
1 WE'LL STAND BY FOR THE JUROR IN SEAT NO. 10.
l
2 MA'AM, YOU'RE FINE. WE GOT UNDERWAY EARLY. l
3 IT'S LIKE ONE OF THESE TRICKS THAT WE PULL. YOU'RE
4 DOING FINE. l
5 JUROR NO. 10: THANK YOU.
l
6 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU. BACK ON THE
,
,
7 RECORD. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL
8 MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT AND DEOXYGENATED.
9 MR. MONTPETIT IS ON THE WITNESS STAND AGAIN.
10 THANK YOU, SIR.
11 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION. 1
13 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
14
15
Q. MR. MONTPETIT, OVER THE BREAK YOU HAD A CHANCE
TO REVIEW YOUR REPORTS AND ANALYSIS, CORRECT?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17
18
Q. YOU STATED EARLIER RIGHT BEFORE THE BREAK THAT
YOU DID THE ANALYSIS ON 16-2 THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS
,
J
19 PRESENT AT 15 OF 15 MARKERS. DO YOU RECALL THAT?
1
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
I BELIEVE I SAID 15 AND 16.
15 OF 16.
YES.
I'M SORRY. ,
23
24
Q.
AGAIN?
HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THOSE RESULTS
1
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. AND AFTER LOOKING AT THEM, DID YOU MAKE A
27 MISTAKE? l
28 A. YES. I MISSPEAK AND HE'S PRESENT AT 14 OUT OF
l
1
r 970
r 1 16 MARKERS.
r 2 Q. SO GETTING BACK, THOUGH, TO THE PRESENT

3 ANALYSIS, 16-3 AND 17-13?
r 4 A. DASH 3?
r 5
6
Q. 16-3 AND 17-3 -- THE NUMBERS ARE KILLING ME
BUT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS PRESENT AT ALL MARKERS ON THE
r 7
8
RIGHT GLOVE AND ALL BUT TWO MARKERS ON THE LEFT GLOVE.
A. CORRECT.
r 9
10
Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO DO A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS IN
r
RELATION TO THOSE FINDINGS?
11 A. YES I WAS.
r 12
13
Q.
ANALYSIS?
WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THAT STATISTICAL
r 14
15
A. WITH RESPECT TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, THE APPROXIMATE
PROBABILITY THAT A PERSON SELECTED AT RANDOM WOULD BE
r 16
17
INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MINOR DNA CONTRIBUTOR WERE ONE IN
1700 IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE IN 100,000 IN
r 18 THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION AND ONE IN 450 IN THE
r 19
20
HISPANIC POPULATION.
Q. NOW, SOME OF THESE OTHER RESULTS THAT YOU'VE
r 21
22
DONE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, FOR I HAVEN'T ASKED YOU ABOUT
THEM, BUT LET'S PULL ONE OUT SUCH AS ONE WITH MOISES
r 23
24
LOPEZ WHERE HE'S A SINGLE SOURCE CONTRIBUTOR.
COULD YOU CHOOSE ONE FOR US.
r 25 A. THE CONCLUSION THAT HAVE MR. LOPEZ AS A
r
26 CONTRIBUTOR I DID NOT DO A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON
27 BECAUSE AS THE VICTIM IN THE CASE, I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS
r 28 FORENSICALLY SIGNIFICANT TO HAVE HIM OR TO FIND HIS
r
971
,
l
1 BLOOD ON ITEMS OF EVIDENCE.
1
2
3
4
Q. NOW, YOU DID DO, THOUGH, STATISTICAL ANALYSIS
ON THINGS LIKE BEER BOTTLES WHERE MR. DOMINGUEZ'S OR MR.
ZEPEDA'S DNA WAS FOUND, CORRECT?
,
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. WHAT WERE THE NUMBERS IN THE STATISTICAL
l
l
,
7 ANALYSIS ON THOSE?
8 A. IN TERMS OF THE BEER BOTTLES?
9
10
Q.
A.
CORRECT.
FOR WHICH PERSON?
,
11
12
13
Q.
A.
LET'S JUST GO WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ.
SO ITEM FS8A AND FS10A, I HAD MR. DOMINGUEZ
INCLUDED OR MATCHING THE DNA OR PREDOMINANT DNA FROM
,
14
15
THOSE ITEMS. THE APPROXIMATE PROBABILITY THAT A PERSON
SELECTED AT RANDOM WOULD POSSESS THE SAME DNA PROFILE OR
l
16 PREDOMINANT DNA PROFILE AS THOSE EVIDENCE ITEMS WERE ONE
17 IN 43 SEXTILLION IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE
18 IN 1.7 SEPTILLION IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION, l
19 AND ONE IN 3.2 SEXTILLION IN THE HISPANIC POPULATION.
20 Q. NOW, THOSE NUMBERS ARE SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER l
21 THAN ONE IN 450, CORRECT?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. WHAT HAPPENS IN MIXTURES, IN TERMS OF
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, VERSUS SINGLE SOURCE
l
25 CONTRIBUTIONS? l
26 A. IN SINGLE SOURCE CONTRIBUTIONS, WE ONLY
27 CONSIDER THE COMBINATIONS OF DNA TYPES THAT ARE THERE. l
28 SO THERE'S ONLY ESSENTIALLY ONE COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES
1
,
r 972
r 1 OR ONE COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES IN A SINGLE SOURCE
r 2
3
SAMPLE. SO THE CHANCES OF MATCHING THAT IS PRETTY RARE.
WHEN IT COMES TO A MIXTURE, THE MORE DNA TYPES

r 4 YOU HAVE, THE MORE POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS OF DNA TYPES
r 5
6
ARE CONSIDERED. AND SO THE CHANCE OF MATCHING IT JUST
BY CHANCE ALONE IS A LOT HIGHER, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT
r 7
8
MORE DNA TYPES TO MATCH TO.
AND SO WHEN WE CONSIDER THAT ALL THE
r 9 COMBINATIONS ACROSS ALL THE DNA MARKERS, THE PROBABILITY
r 10
11
12
OF JUST MATCHING IT BY CHANCE ACTUALLY GOES DOWN.
Q. SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE MIXTURE ON THE
GLOVES, IS THIS A COMBINATION OF BOTH OF THE GLOVES, THE
r 13 RIGHT AND THE LEFT FOR YOUR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO. IT WAS JUST FOR THE RIGHT GLOVE.
JUST FOR THE RIGHT.
r 16
17
IN TERMS OF THAT, THAT WOULD BE AT RANDOM, A
PERSON WHO IS OF HISPANIC DESCENT. IS THIS IN AMERICA?
r 18 A. YEAH. WE USE THE SOUTHWEST HISPANIC POPULATION
r 19
20
DATABASE.
Q. IN SOUTHWESTERN AMERICA, ONE IN 450 HAVE A
r 21
22
CHANCE OF HAVING THEIR DNA BE INCLUDED IN THAT MIXTURE?
A. ESSENTIALLY IF YOU TOOK A RANDOM HISPANIC MALE
r 23
24
OFF THE STREET, THE CHANCES THAT HE WOULD HAVE SOME
COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES THAT WOULD FIT INTO THAT
r 25 MIXTURE ARE ONE IN 450.
r 26
27
ESSENTIALLY YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH ABOUT
450 PEOPLE BEFORE YOU FOUND SOMEBODY WHO MATCHED TO THE
r 28 SAME DEGREE THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHED.
r
973
l
l
1 Q. DOES THIS MEAN ALL THE PEOPLE OF HISPANIC
2 DESCENT IN THE SOUTHWEST HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO l
3 HAVE PUT THEIR DNA ON THOSE GLOVES?
4 A. I WOULD SAY THAT THAT IS NOT THE CASE. l
5 Q. WHAT THEN ARE THE NUMBERS SIGNIFICANT OF IN
6 TERMS OF STATISTICS?
l
7
8
A. ESSENTIALLY WE ARE ANSWERING THE QUESTION OF
JUST WHO OUT THERE IN THE POPULATION, LIKE I SAID, BY
l
l
9
10
11
12
CHANCE ALONE WOULD HAPPEN TO HAVE SOME COMBINATION OF
THE DNA TYPES THAT ARE REPRESENTED IN THE MIXTURE.
ULTIMATELY THAT IS AN INDICATION OF HOW SIGNIFICANT THAT
MATCH IS.
AND
,
13 IF THE NUMBERS WERE ONE IN SEVERAL MILLION, l
,
l
14 THAT'S A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT STATISTICAL RESULT. AS THE
15 NUMBERS GET DOWN INTO, YOU KNOW, THE HUNDREDS, THE
16 DOZENS, THERE IS LESS SIGNIFICANCE OF A MATCH IN THAT
17 CASE AND THE STRENGTH OF THE EVIDENCE IS ACTUALLY
18 REDUCED. l
19 Q. IN TERMS OF THESE PARTICULAR GLOVES, YOU ALSO
20 MENTIONED THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE THAT MAY BE INCLUDED l
21 AS MINOR CONTRIBUTORS AS WELL AS COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED;
22 IS THAT CORRECT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THAT IS CORRECT.
ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WAS JOSUE GUTIERREZ.
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. DID YOU DO A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON WHY MR.
27 THE LIKELIHOOD OF MR. GUTIERREZ'S DNA PROFILE BEING l
28 INCLUDED?
l
1
r 974
r 1 A. WELL, THE QUESTION IS: WHAT IS THE CHANCE THAT
r 2 SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE POPULATION MATCHING TO THE SAME
r 3
4
EXTENT THAT MR. GUTIERREZ IS POTENTIALLY INCLUDED AT?
AND IT WAS ONE IN 34 IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION,
r 5
6
ONE IN 140 IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION, AND ONE
IN 15 IN THE HISPANIC POPULATION.
r 7
8
Q. YOU ALSO DID THE SAME FOR VICTOR RAMOS, ANDRES
LOPEZ AND JOSEPH NIETO?
r 9 A. YES, I DID.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
THESE PEOPLE COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED.
CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q. SO THE NOMENCLATURE BETWEEN BEING INCLUDED AND
COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED, THAT'S WHERE THE LINE IS DRAWN?
r 14
15
A. ESSENTIALLY IT REFLECTS THE AMOUNT OF
INFORMATION THAT I HAVE TO MAKE THE CONCLUSION.
r 16
17
Q. AND WHAT WERE THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS FOR
THOSE THREE INDIVIDUALS?
r 18 A. WITH RESPECT TO VICTOR RAMOS, IT WAS ONE IN
r 19
20
SEVEN IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE IN 15 IN THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION AND ONE IN FIVE IN THE
r 21
22
WITH RESPECT TO ANDRES LOPEZ, IT WAS ONE IN
r 23
24
SEVEN IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE IN 15 IN THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION AND ONE IN FOUR IN THE
il 25 HISPANIC POPULATION.
r 26
27
AND WITH RESPECT TO JOSEPH NIETO, IT WAS ONE IN
FOUR IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE IN SEVEN IN
r 28 THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION AND ONE IN THREE IN THE
r
975
,
l
1
2
Q. SO THIS WOULD BE ONE OUT OF THREE PEOPLE -- HOW
, J
3 WOULD YOU SAY IT?

4 A. I WOULD SAY THAT ONE IN THREE HISPANICS WOULD l
5
6
JUST BY CHANCE ALONE MATCH TO THE SAME DEGREE THAT MR.
NIETO MATCHED.
l
7
8
Q. NOW, IN LOOKING AT THESE INDIVIDUALS, THOUGH,
MR. NIETO, MR. RAMOS, MR. ANDRES LOPEZ AND JOSUE
l
9 GUTIERREZ, THEIR DNA PROFILES OR ALLELES WERE NOT l
10 PRESENT AT ALL MARKERS ON THESE GLOVES; IS THAT
11 CORRECT? l
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. WHY WOULD YOU THEN INCLUDE THESE INDIVIDUALS OR
l
14
15
NOT EXCLUDED THESE INDIVIDUALS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE
MISSING ON NUMEROUS PLACES?
l
16 A. AGAIN, IT COMES BACK TO WHERE THOSE PARTICULAR
1
17 MARKERS -- WHERE THEY'RE MISSING DNA TYPES. AND IF
18 THEY'RE PRESENT -- IF THEIR DNA TYPES ARE PRESENT THAT 1
19 ARE CONSISTENT WITH THEIRS AT THE STRONGER DNA MARKERS,
20 I'M NOT GOING TO EXCLUDE THEM. l
21 AND REALLY IT DEPENDS ON WHERE THOSE MARKERS
22 START TO FALL OFF OR WHERE THOSE DNA TYPES STOP BEING
l
23
24
REPRESENTED. IF IT'S STILL SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE THEY
COULD BE CONTRIBUTING A SMALL AMOUNT OF DNA TO THAT
1
25 MIXTURE, I WILL NOT EXCLUDE THEM AS POSSIBLE l
26 CONTRIBUTORS.
27 I NEED, I GUESS, DNA TYPES THAT ARE ABSENT AT l
28 MORE RELIABLE DNA MARKERS IN TERMS OF THE RESULTS THAT I
l
l
r 976
r 1 GET.
r 2 Q. YOU ALSO USED TERMINOLOGY AS INCONCLUSIVE AS TO
3 SEVERAL OTHERS; IS THAT CORRECT?

r 4 A. THAT IS CORRECT.
r 5
6
Q. WHAT DOES INCONCLUSIVE MEAN IN THE SPECTRUM OF
MATCH INCLUDED, NOT INCLUDED AND EXCLUDED?
r 7
8
A. THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS SOME INDICATION THAT
THEIR DNA MIGHT POTENTIALLY BE THERE, BUT THERE IS NOT
r 9 ENOUGH FOR ME TO ACTUALLY OFFER THAT AS A CONCLUSION
r
10 THAT THEY ARE THERE. IT'S THE PEOPLE THAT CANNOT
11 CONCLUSIVELY BE EXCLUDED, BUT I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH
r 12
13
INFORMATION TO CONCLUSIVELY INCLUDE THEM WOULD FALL INTO
THAT CATEGORY.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE?
ROBERTO RUIZ, CHRISTIAN AMBRIZ, SIRIA FORD,
r
' 16
17
TOMAS LOPEZ, LUIS VILLANUEVA AND EVELYN SOTO COULD NOT
BE EXCLUDED AS POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTORS TO THAT, SO THEY
r '
18
19
ARE ESSENTIALLY INCONCLUSIVE.
Q. FINALLY, AS TO THIS GLOVE, WHO WAS EXCLUDED?

r 20 A. VANESSA ESCHEVARIA, JESSE PANZA, GREGORY
r
'
21
22
MENDOZA, CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, ISMAEL ACEVES AND DANIEL
ZEPEDA WERE ALL EXCLUDED AS POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTORS.
r 23
24
Q. I DO HAVE A QUESTION IN TERMS OF WHEN YOU'RE
LOOKING AT THE DNA MARKERS. ONE IS THE SEX MARKER,
r 25 CORRECT?
A. YES.
r
26
27 Q. THIS IS THE X OR XY?
28 A. CORRECT.
l
r
977
l
l
1 Q. IN THIS CASE, DID THE XY SHOW UP ON BOTH
2 GLOVES? l
3 A. I BELIEVE IT DID, YES.
4 Q. THE FACT THAT THERE IS A Y THERE, WHY DOESN'T l
THAT NECESSARILY EXCLUDE ALL FEMALES?
5
6 A. ESSENTIALLY BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A MIXTURE OF DNA.

l
7 THE PRESENCE OF A Y INDICATES THAT WE HAVE AT LEAST ONE
l
8
9
MALE THERE, BUT THE PRESENCE OF THE X WOULD BE THERE
WHETHER A FEMALE OR MALE WAS PRESENT. AND SO JUST THE
, J
10 PRESENCE OF A Y DOESN'T INCLUDE ALL FEMALES IN A MIXED

11 SAMPLE. l
12 Q. MOVING ON TO THE LAST GLOVE, THE 17-3, THE LEFT
13 GLOVE, WE ALSO HEARD YOUR TESTIMONY THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ'
l
14 DNA WAS INCLUDED AS A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR IN THIS MIXTURE,
1
15
16
CORRECT?
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
, J
17 Q. WHAT WAS THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS IN REGARDS TO
18 HIS INCLUSION FOR THIS GLOVE? l
19 A. WITH RESPECT TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, THE APPROXIMATE
20 PROBABILITIES THAT A PERSON SELECTED AT RANDOM WOULD BE 1
21 INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MINOR DNA CONTRIBUTOR WERE ONE IN
22 210 IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE IN 1300 IN THE
l
23
24
AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION, ONE IN 65 IN THE HISPANIC
POPULATION.
l
25 Q. NOW, WHY ISN'T THIS ONE IN 450 SUCH AS THE l
26 RIGHT GLOVE WAS?
27 A. BECAUSE, NUMBER ONE, THE RESULTS ARE A LITTLE l
28 BIT DIFFERENT FOR THIS PARTICULAR DNA MIXTURE, AND A
l
l
r 978
r 1 DIFFERENT COMBINATION OF DNA MARKERS WAS USED IN THE
r 2 STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
r
3 Q. MR. MONTPETIT, WHY ISN'T IT ZERO BECAUSE
4 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S DNA IS NOT PRESENT OR PARTIALLY NOT
r 5
6
PRESENT ON TWO MARKERS?
A. AGAIN, IT COMES DOWN TO WHICH MARKERS THEY
r 7
8
WERE. AND IN MY SCIENTIFIC OPINION, THE ABSENCE OF DNA
TYPES CONSISTENT WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ AT THOSE MARKERS WAS
r 9
10
NOT ENOUGH TO SUBSTANTIATE AN EXCLUSION FROM THAT
SAMPLE.
r 11 Q. DO YOU ALSO HAVE A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO CANNOT BE
12 EXCLUDED FROM THIS LEFT GLOVE?

r 13 A. YES, I DO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO ARE THOSE PEOPLE?
ROBERTO RUIZ, CHRISTIAN AMBRIZ, SIRIA FORD,
r 16
17
TOMAS LOPEZ, VICTOR RAMOS, ANDRES LOPEZ, JOSUE GUTIERREZ
COULD NOT BE EXCLUDED AS POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTORS TO
r 18 THE MIXTURE.
r 19
20
AND WITH RESPECT TO ROBERTO RUIZ, CHRISTIAN
AMBRIZ, SIRIA FORD AND TOMAS LOPEZ, THE APPROXIMATE
r 21
22
PROBABILITIES THAT A PERSON SELECTED AT RANDOM WOULD BE
INCLUDED TO THE SAME DEGREE WERE ONE IN THREE IN THE
r 23
24
U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, ONE IN THREE IN THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION, AND ONE IN TWO IN THE
r 25 HISPANIC POPULATION.
r 26
27
WITH RESPECT TO VICTOR RAMOS, ANDRES LOPEZ AND
JOSUE GUTIERREZ, THE APPROXIMATE PROBABILITIES THAT A
r 28 PERSON SELECTED AT RANDOM WOULD BE INCLUDED AS A
r
979
l
l
1 POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE SAME DEGREE AS THOSE
2 INDIVIDUALS WERE ONE IN FIVE IN THE U.S. CAUCASIAN l
3 POPULATION, ONE IN EIGHT IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN
4 POPULATION, AND ONE IN THREE IN THE HISPANIC l
POPULATION.
5
6 Q. WAS THERE ALSO A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO IT WAS

l
7
8
INCONCLUSIVE TO SIMILAR TO THE RIGHT GLOVE?
A. YES. LUIS VILLANUEVA AND EVELYN SOTO. I COULD
l
9 NOT DETERMINE WHETHER THEY WERE INCLUDED OR EXCLUDED TO l
10 THE SAMPLE.
l
11
12
13
Q.
A.
FINALLY, AS TO THIS GLOVE, WAS THERE A GROUP OF
PEOPLE WHO COULD BE EXCLUDED?
YES. VANESSA ECHEVARIA, JESSE PANZA, GREG
,
J
14
15
MENDOZA, CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, ISMAEL ACEVES, JOSEPH
NIETO, AND DANIEL ZEPEDA WERE ALL EXCLUDED AS POSSIBLE
l
16 CONTRIBUTORS. l
17 Q. NOW, THIS IS A PAIR OF GLOVES WE'RE TALKING
18 ABOUT, CORRECT, MR. MONTPETIT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST LUMP BOTH GLOVES TOGETHER l
21 UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT PEOPLE WEAR A PAIR OF GLOVES
22 AND NOT JUST A SINGLE GLOVE?
l
23
24
A. IT'S POLICY AT THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT
THAT IF WE HAVE SEPARATE SAMPLES THAT THEY ARE
l
25 INTERPRETED SEPARATELY. WE DON'T JUST TAKE ALL THE DNA l
26 RESULTS AND MASH THEM TOGETHER AND SEE WHAT SHAKES OUT.
27 WE TREAT THEM INDEPENDENTLY. l
28 Q. AND IN TERMS OF INCLUDING AND EXCLUDING PEOPLE,
l
l
r 980
r 1 DO YOU GET ADDITIONAL FACTS SUCH AS WHETHER OR NOT A
r 2 PERSON WAS IN THE COUNTRY AT THE TIME OR IN JAIL AT
r 3
4
ANOTHER TIME OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
A. NO. WE TRY AND JUST USE THE DNA RESULTS AS
5 THEY COME ACROSS THE DESK.
r 6 Q. SO YOUR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS IS BASED SOLELY
r 7
8
UPON THE RESULTS AND THE TYPES OF DNA PROFILES YOU HAVE
BEFORE YOU?
10 Q. YOU COMPILED THIS REPORT, CORRECT?
r
'
11 A. YES, I DID.
r 12
13
Q. YOU COMPILED AND YOU WORKED OUT THE STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS YOURSELF.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
AFTER YOU'VE SEEN THE STATISTICAL NUMBERS, ONE
r 16
17
IN 450 AND ONE IN 65 FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ, DID THAT CHANGE
YOUR OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS INCLUDED AS A
r 18 MINOR CONTRIBUTOR IN THESE MIXTURES?
r 19
20
A. NO. THE CONCLUSION OF WHETHER SOMEBODY IS A
MINOR CONTRIBUTOR IS MADE PRIOR TO DOING ANY SORT OF
r
' 21
22
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, AS I'VE
SAID, IS A MEANS OF TRYING TO CONVEY THE STRENGTH OF THE
r 23
24
PARTICULAR ASSOCIATION.
Q. IN TERMS OF WE'VE BEEN REFERRING TO PEOPLE BY
r 25 NAME -- FLORENCIO DOMINGEZ, ROBERTO RUIZ, VANESSA

ECHEVARIA -- DO YOU CARE PERSONALLY WHO'S INVOLVED IN
r
26
27 THIS MIXTURE?
r 28 A. NO. I REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHO ANY OF THESE
r
981
l
l
1 PEOPLE ARE REALLY. I'M JUST MAKING MY ASSESSMENT BASED
2 ON THE DNA PROFILES THAT I OBTAIN. l
3 Q. HAS ANYONE AT THE LABORATORY TOLD YOU WHO'S IN
4 THE MIXTURE, THEN ASKED YOU TO PROVE IT? l
5 A. NO.
6 Q. YOU WORK IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BUILDING,
l
7
8
CORRECT?
A. THAT IS CORRECT. THE LAB OCCUPIES THE SIXTH
l
9 FLOOR AND PORTIONS OF THE FIFTH FLOOR OF THE l
10 HEADQUARTERS BUILDING.
11 Q. YOU HAVE CONTACT WITH POLICE OFFICERS ON A l
12 DAILY BASIS.
13 A. YES, I DO. l
14
15
Q. YOU ALSO DO EXTRACURRICULARS WITH SOME POLICE
OFFICERS; IS THAT CORRECT?
l
16 A. I PLAY HOCKEY WITH A FEW POLICE OFFICERS.
l
17 Q. DO POLICE OFFICERS COME UP AND TELL YOU, YOU
18 KNOW, I GOT THIS GUY WHO'S GUILTY, GIVE ME SOME DNA TO l
19 PROVE IT?
20 A. IT REALLY NO, ITS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME. IT l
21 WOULDN'T MATTER IF IT DID, BECAUSE WE TRY AND REMAIN
22 UNBIASED IN OUR INTERPRETATIONS. AND ALL THE
1
23
24
INTERPRETATIONS THAT WE MAKE IN THE LABORATORY, WE TRY
VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE
l
25 THAT WE OBTAIN AND THE DNA RESULTS. AND THE PROCESS OF l
26 TECHNICAL REVIEW AND ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW IS ONE OF THE
27 ELEMENTS THAT WE HAVE IN THE LABORATORY TO TRY AND l
28 MAINTAIN THAT UNBIASED APPROACH.
l
l
[
982
r 1 Q. IS THIS THE REASON WE ALSO HAVE A RECORDING
r 2
3
ABILITY FOR ALL YOUR DATA THAT YOU RUN THROUGH THE
INSTRUMENTS?
r 4 A. ABSOLUTELY.
r 5
6
Q. WE WERE ALSO TALKING -- AND I MISSED THIS AND I
APOLOGIZE -- BUT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THRESHOLD LEVELS
r 7
8
BEFORE
A. YES.
r 9 Q. -- RIGHT BEFORE THE BREAK. YOU MENTIONED
r 10
11
SOMETHING LIKE AN EKG WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE DNA
PEAKS IN THE MIXTURE; IS THAT CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
IS THE CUT-OFF LEVEL THEN A LINE THAT THAT PEAK
r 14
15
HAS TO GO ABOVE?
A. ESSENTIALLY, YES. ANYTHING BELOW THAT LINE
r 16
17
WOULD NOT BE DETECTED BY OUR INSTRUMENTS,
RECORDED BY US.
IS NOT
ESSENTIALLY IT'S A LINE IN THE SAND
r 18 THAT A DNA TYPE HAS TO CROSS BEFORE IT'S REPORTED AND
r 19
20
INTERPRETED BY US.
Q. SO IF YOU WERE TO HAVE A SITUATION WHERE AN
INDIVIDUAL HAD A DNA PROFILE BUT IT DIDN'T GET ABOVE

r 21
22 THAT LINE, WOULD THAT BE REPORTED IN ANY WAY AS EITHER A
r 23
24
WEAK CONTRIBUTOR, INCONCLUSIVE OR OTHERWISE IN YOUR
REPORTS?
r 25 A. NO. ANYTHING BELOW THE DETECTION THRESHOLD IS
r
26 NOT REPORTED, NOT INTERPRETED.
27 Q. BUT SUCH A FACT OR SOMETHING COMING BELOW THE
r 28 LINE WOULD BE RECORDED IN TERMS OF ELECTRONIC DATA
r
983
l
l
1 THAT'S RECORDED, CORRECT?
2 A. SOMETIMES WE CAN SEE VISUAL EVIDENCE OF l
3 SOMETHING BELOW OUR THRESHOLD, BUT WE DON'T GO BELOW THE
4 THRESHOLD TO ATTEMPT TO INTERPRET IT. l
BUT IN TERMS OF WHEN A MARKER GOES ABOVE THE
5
6
Q.
THRESHOLD, THAT ABSOLUTELY IS RECORDED IN THE DATA.

l
7
8
A.
Q.
ABSOLUTELY.
SO SOMEONE COULD SEE WHETHER YOU'RE CLAIMING
l
9 SOMETHING IS BELOW THE LINE WHEN IT ACTUALLY ISN'T. l
10 A. ABSOLUTELY. AND IF THERE WAS A TYPE THAT WAS
11 IN OUR REPORT THAT WAS NOT ABOVE OUR DETECTION l
12 THRESHOLD, A TECHNICAL REVIEW PROCESS WOULD CATCH THAT
13 AND IT WOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE REPORT.
l
14
15
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR.
YOU MAY.
l
l
17
18
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, CROSS-EXAMINATION?
,
J

20 IT'S GOING TO TAKE ME MAYBE 10 MINUTES TO SET l
21
22
UP. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S PRUDENT TO WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW
SINCE IT'S 4:05 I DON'T KNOW IF THAT --
1
23
24 GENTLEMEN.
THE COURT: LET'S DO THAT, LADIES AND
WE'VE COVERED A GREAT DEAL OF TERRITORY THIS
l
25 AFTERNOON. I THANK YOU FOR WHAT I PERCEIVE AS YOUR l
26 EXCEPTIONAL CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
27 PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT IT IS l
28 YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY
1
r 984
r 1 OTHER PERSON ON ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL,
r 2 OR TO FORM OR EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE
r
3 IS FINALLY SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION.
4 PLEASE RESIST ANY TEMPTATION YOU MIGHT HAVE TO
r 5
6
TAKE A FORAY INTO THE FIELD OF DNA KNOWLEDGE, WHETHER BY
INTERNET OR OTHER READING AT THE HOUSE. AND LET'S NOT
r 7
8
LOOK UP ALLELES OR ANY OF THOSE WORDS.
NOT A ROOT OF A PROBLEM WITH YOU FOLKS.
I KNOW THAT IS
I APPRECIATE
r 9
10
IT.
ANYWAY, SAFE TRIP HOME. LET'S PLAN ON
[ 11 RECONVENING OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM AT 9:00 TOMORROW
r 12
13
MORNING. THANK YOU.
[ 14 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

r 16 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.

17 MR. MONTPETIT, COUNSEL FREQUENTLY LEAVE ITEMS
r 18 HERE ON COUNSEL TABLE. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE ANY
r 19
20
MATERIALS HERE YOU WOULD LIKE.
WILL NOT BE DISTURBED OR LOOKED AT.
IT'S UP TO YOU. THEY
WE'LL SEE YOU
21 TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MINUTES EARLY.
YOUR HONOR, I MAY SHOW UP 10
r 25 THE COURT: YES, ABSOLUTELY. LET ME INQUIRE OF
r 26
27
COUNSEL, IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN FORESEE NOW THAT
WE'LL NEED TO TALK ABOUT BEFORE GOING ON THE RECORD? DO
r 28 WE HAVE WITNESS OR OTHER ISSUES TOMORROW THAT ANYBODY
r
985
l
l
1 KNOWS ABOUT?
l
2
3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
I DON'T HAVE ANY.
BATTING ORDER, MR. MONTPETIT WILL
,
5 BE ON CROSS-EXAMINATION FOR A LENGTHY PERIOD OF TIME,
6 THE WHOLE DAY, DO YOU THINK, OR NOT?
l
l
,
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S HARD TO SAY, BUT IT
8 COULD TAKE THE ENTIRE DAY. I KNOW THAT IN THE FIRST
9 TRIAL IT TOOK ABOUT THREE-QUARTERS OF THE DAY, AND I
10 DEFINITELY HAVE MORE ISSUES TO GO OVER WITH HIM IN THIS
11 ONE, SO IT COULD TAKE THE WHOLE DAY WITH HIM. l
12 THE COURT: FAIR ENOUGH. MAY I TALK WITH
l
13
14
15
COUNSEL ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE THIS DOESN'T NEED TO BE ON
THE RECORD. WE'LL GO OFF THE RECORD NOW.
WANTS TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE RECORD WE WILL.
IF COUNSEL ,
l
16
17
18
19
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
Ill
Ill
,
20 Ill l
21 Ill
22 Ill
l
23
24
Ill
Ill
l
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
l
l
r

. ss


r TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2011.
r
r 1J.~C.C.~~
r SIINO
CSR NO. 6263
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DIVISION ONE

) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO . D060019
vs. )
)
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT . )
) TRIAL

VOLUME 10
APRIL 6, 2011
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT :
REPORTED BY : PEGGY C . SIINO, CSR NO. 6263

r

)
r
OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
)
r ______________________________
DEFENDANT . ))
APRIL 6, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE
r SHAWN MONTPETIT
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 986

1099
1119
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r
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r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r DEFENSE HH
DEFENSE RR
DNA POWERPOINT PRESENTATION
BUTCHER PAPER
987
1002
r DEFENSE DD
DEFENSE EE
LABORATORY DNA REQUEST FORM
REPORT OF ANALYSIS
1018
1019
r DEFENSE P
DEFENSE 0
REQUEST FOR DNA ANALYSIS
COMMUNICATION LOG
1022
1023
r DEFENSE L PHOTO OF LEFT GLOVE TAKEN

10/13/2008
1025
r DEFENSE K PHOTO OF RIGHT GLOVE TAKEN

10/13/2008
1026
r DEFENSE M
DEFENSE N
PHOTO OF RIGHT GLOVE TAKEN
1/24/11
PHOTO OF LEFT GLOVE TAKEN
1031
1031
r DEFENSE X
1/24/11
ELECTROPHEROGRAMS OF ITEMS 16-3 1076
r AND 17-3
r
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r
r
r 986
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6, 2011; 9:31AM
r 2
r 5
6
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU.
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL MEMBERS
r 7
8
OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.
PRESENT.
MR. MONTPETIT HAS RESUMED THE WITNESS STAND.
r 9
10
PLEASE ACCEPT WHAT SEEMS TO BECOMING MY FORM
APOLOGY FOR NOT STARTING AT 9:00. WE ARE WORKING ON
r 11 ADDRESSING, THOUGH, ISSUES. PLEASE DON'T ALLOW YOUR
r 12
13
FRUSTRATION, IF ANY, TO INTERFERE WITH YOUR
CONSCIENTIOUS CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER.
r 14
15
WE MOVE TO CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MR. MONTPETIT
BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
r 16
17
SHAWN MONTPETIT,
r 18 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY FIRST DULY
r 19
20
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 21
22
Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. MONTPETIT.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING.
MR. MONTPETIT, I'M JUST GOING TO REVIEW SOME OF
r 25 THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID YESTERDAY, BECAUSE THERE WAS A

26 LOT TO TAKE IN IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME. SO LET'S GO
r 27 OVER SOME OF THOSE THINGS AGAIN.
r 28 I GUESS WHAT WOULD BE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART
r
987
1
l
1 OF YOUR TESTIMONY YESTERDAY WAS THE GLOVES; WOULD YOU
2 AGREE? l
3 A. IT WAS PART OF MY TESTIMONY. I'M NOT TOO SURE
4 IF I CAN JUDGE HOW IMPORTANT IT IS OR NOT. l
5 Q. AND YOU TESTED THE GLOVES ON THE OUTSIDE,
6 MEANING YOU SWABBED THE OUTSIDE OF THE GLOVES FIRST.
l
7
8
A. I TOOK A SWAB OF THE STAIN FROM THE OUTSIDE OF
THE GLOVES FIRST, THAT'S CORRECT.
l
9 Q. AND THAT WAS A SINGLE SOURCE PROFILE, RIGHT? l
10 A. THAT IS CORRECT, YES.
11 Q. BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER, LET'S EXAMINE A l
12 SINGLE SOURCE PROFILE SO WE KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
13 DO YOU SEE THE SLIDE BEHIND YOU?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
THAT'S THE SWAB OF A BEER BOTTLE, CORRECT?
l
16 A. CORRECT. l
17 Q. THE BEER BOTTLE IS FS8A, CORRECT?
18 A. CORRECT. l
19 THE COURT: FOR THE RECORD, REFERRING TO
20 DOCUMENTS AND THE SLIDES CONTAINED IN DEFENSE EXHIBIT l
21 HH.
22 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT HH, DNA POWERPOINT
l
23
24
PRESENTATION, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
25 Q. FS8A IS A SINGLE SOURCE PROFILE, IS IT NOT, l
26 MR. MONTPETIT?
28 Q. WHEN WE LOOK AT FS8A, THESE NUMBERS IN EACH
l
l
r 988
r 1 BOX, SAY, AT D8S1179, THAT 12 AND 13, THOSE ARE ALLELES.
r 2 A. CORRECT.
r
3 Q. THOSE REPRESENT PEAKS ON AN ELECTROPHEROGRAM.
5
r 6
Q.
A.
WHAT IS AN ELECTROPHEROGRAM?
AN ELECTROPHEROGRAM IS THE GRAPHICAL
r 7
8
REPRESENTATION OF THE DATA THAT OUR INSTRUMENTATION
PRODUCES WHEN WE RUN OUR AMPLIFIED DNA THROUGH THE
r 9
10
ANALYZER.
Q. FORGIVE ME IF I'M OVERSIMPLIFYING THIS,
r 11 MR. MONTPETIT, BUT AN ELECTROPHEROGRAM IS A PICTURE OF
12 THE DNA PROFILE?
r 13 A. YEAH, YOU CAN REFER TO IT AS THAT FOR SURE.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
AND SEE WHERE IT SAYS D8S1179 RIGHT THERE?
YES, I DO.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
IS THAT A LOCUS OR LOCI?
IT WOULD BE A -- SINGULAR WOULD BE LOCUS,
r 18 PLURAL, THEY ARE LOCI. DO YOU WANT ME TO EXPLAIN THE
r 19
20
TABLE TO THE JURY?
Q. IF YOU WOULD PLEASE, YEAH.
r 21
22
A. ESSENTIALLY THAT IS A TABLE OF RESULTS THAT WE
COMMONLY PUT INTO OUR REPORTS. ON THE FAR LEFT COLUMN
r 23
24
IS A -- THE LIST OF ITEMS THAT WERE TESTED.
TWO IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE.
THERE IS
r 25 THE ROW ACROSS THE TOP INDICATES THE DIFFERENT
r
26 DNA MARKERS THAT WE TEST OR THE DNA LOCI THAT WE TEST
27 WITH OUR PARTICULAR DNA TESTING KIT.
r 28 THE ONE THAT COUNSEL HAS ALREADY REFERRED TO,
r
989
l
l
1 D8S1179, YOU CAN KIND OF THINK OF THAT AS AN ADDRESS FOR
2 A SPECIFIC SITE ON THE DNA MOLECULE. AND THAT IS, D8 l
3 REPRESENTS CHROMOSOME 8, AND S1179 IS THE SPECIFIC
4 LOCATION ON CHROMOSOME 8 THAT THAT DNA MARKER BELONGS l
5 TO. THE 12 AND 13 ARE THE TWO DNA TYPES THAT WERE
6 DETECTED AT THAT MARKER FOR THAT SAMPLE.
l
7
8
AND, SIMILARLY, ACROSS THE WAY WE HAVE THE
OTHER DNA MARKERS THAT ARE TESTED AND THE DNA TYPES THAT
l
9 WERE DETECTED AT THOSE MARKERS. l
10 Q. SO THE PLURAL IS LOCI?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. OKAY. AT THIS PARTICULAR LOCUS -- WELL, FIRST
13 OF ALL, BEFORE I ASK THAT, THESE ARE WHAT YOU CALL
l
14
15
NONCODING LOCUS, RIGHT?
A. YES. ALL THE DNA MARKERS THAT WE TEST ARE
l
16 NONCODING, WHICH MEANS THEY DON'T FUNCTION IN ANY
l
17 GENETIC WAY THAT WILL PRODUCE PROTEINS OR ANY SORT OF
18 MEASURABLE EFFECT WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOMEBODY. I COULD l
19 NOT TELL BY LOOKING AT THIS WHETHER SOMEBODY WAS GOING
20 TO HAVE BLUE EYES OR BROWN HAIR. l
21 THESE ARE FROM AREAS OF THE DNA THAT FOR LACK
22 OF A BETTER TERM ARE CONSIDERED JUNK DNA. THEY'RE NOT
l
23
24
USED FOR ANYTHING GENETIC OTHER THAN SPACING OUT THE
ACTUAL GENE PRODUCTS THAT ARE WITHIN THE CHROMOSOMES.
l
25 Q. NOW, MR. MONTPETIT, THE ONLY EXCEPTION TO THAT l
26 IS AMEL, RIGHT?
27 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. IT'S WHAT? l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AMEL.
l
l
r 990
r 2 THE WITNESS: THE SPECIFIC LOCATION ON THOSE
r
3 CHROMOSOMES ARE ACTUALLY NONCODING AS WELL, BUT THEY
4 REPRESENT AREAS ON THE X AND THE Y CHROMOSOME.
r 5
6
Q. AND THESE ALLELES IN OTHER PARTS OF THE
r 7
8
CHROMOSOME WOULD CODE A CERTAIN CHARACTERISTIC OR
TRAIT?
r 9
10
A. YES.
MAKING PROTEINS.
IN GENERAL, DNA IS THE BLUEPRINT FOR
AND THE PROTEINS ARE WHAT BUILD THE
r 11 ULTIMATE STRUCTURE, WHETHER IT'S A PLANT OR A HUMAN OR
12 AN ANIMAL. THE GENES ARE WHAT PRODUCES THE END
r 13 PRODUCT.
r 14
15
Q. AND THE REASON THAT AT A CERTAIN LOCUS THERE IS
ONLY TWO ALLELES IS BECAUSE ONE OF THOSE ALLELES YOU GET
r 16
17
FROM YOUR MOM AND ONE OF THOSE YOU GET FROM YOUR DAD,
RIGHT?
r 18 A. CORRECT.
r 19
20
Q. SO A PERSON, BARRING SOME KIND OF BIOLOGICAL
DEFECT, WILL HAVE TWO ALLELES PER LOCUS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
A MAXIMUM OF TWO ALLELES.
PER LOCI?
r 23
24
A. PER LOCUS, YES. AND INSTANCES WHERE THERE ARE
A SINGLE ALLELE OR DNA TYPE DETECTED, THAT'S AN INSTANCE
r 25
26
WHERE YOU'RE GETTING THE SAME DNA TYPE FROM MOM AND FROM
DAD, SO WE'LL ONLY DETECT A SINGLE DNA TYPE.
r 27 Q. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 016?
r 28 A. D16S539 WOULD BE A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR THAT.
r
991
1
l
1 Q. AND THE WORD FOR HAVING ONE PARTICULAR ALLELE
2 AT A LOCUS IS HOMOZYGOUS? l
3 A. THAT IS CORRECT.
4 Q. SO WHAT WOULD HETEROZYGOUS MEAN? l
5 A. THAT MEANS THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ALLELES AT A
6 DNA MARKER.
l
7
8
Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, AT D21, WHOEVER IS ON FS8A
WOULD BE HETEROZYGOUS, BUT AT D16 HE WOULD BE
l
9 HOMOZYGOUS. l
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. AND ON THIS PARTICULAR SLIDE, WHAT WE'RE SEEING l
12 ON TOP IS THE DNA PROFILE YOU GOT FROM A BEER BOTTLE,
13 FS8A, CORRECT? l
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ON THE BOTTOM IS A REFERENCE SAMPLE FROM
1
16 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
l
18 Q. AND IF YOU HAD TO ESTIMATE THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE l
19 THAT ARE POTENTIAL -- THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO
20 ARE CONTRIBUTORS TO FS8A, HOW MANY WOULD THERE BE? l
21 A. I WOULD SAY THERE IS A SINGLE PERSON
22 CONTRIBUTING TO FS8A.
l
23
24
Q. THAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE THAN TWO
ALLELES AT A GIVEN LOCUS?
l
26 Q. IF THERE WERE THREE AT A GIVEN LOCUS, WHAT
27 WOULD YOUR ANSWER BE? l
28 A. THEN BARRING SOME SORT OF GENETIC MUTATION,
l
l
r 992
r 1 THERE WOULD NEED TO BE AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE CONTRIBUTING
r 2 DNA.
r 3
4
Q. OKAY. SO SINCE MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES AT EVERY
SINGLE ONE OF THESE LOCI, IT'S A VERY HIGH DEGREE OF
r 5
6
PROBABILITY THAT THAT'S HIM.
A. YEAH. THE DNA RESULTS OF THE EVIDENCE MATCH
r 7
8
THE DNA PROFILE FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ.
Q. IT'S LIKE ONE IN MAYBE SEXTILLION OR GAGILLION
r 9
10
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, RIGHT?
A. IF I COULD REFER TO MY REPORT, I CAN TELL YOU
r 11 EXACTLY WHAT THE CALCULATION IS.
r 12
13
Q. YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT. BUT WITHOUT
REFERRING TO THE REPORT, IT'S AN EXTREMELY HIGH NUMBER.
r 14
15
A. IT'S ACTUALLY A LOW NUMBER. IT'S ONE IN A
SEXTILLION, WHICH WOULD BE A VERY LOW NUMBER, WHICH
r 16 MEANS THERE IS A VERY LOW PROBABILITY THERE IS ANYONE
r
17 ELSE OUT THERE IN THE POPULATION THAT WOULD MATCH THAT
18 BY CHANCE.
r 19
20
Q. DEPENDING ON WHICH WAY YOU LOOK AT IT, IT'S A
VERY HIGH DEGREE OF RARITY.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
NOW, YOUR OPINION ON WHAT WOULD BE 16-3 IS THAT
r 23
24
AMONG THE HISPANIC POPULATION INSTEAD OF ONE IN THIS
VERY HIGH PROBABILITY, IT'S MORE LIKE ONE IN 450.
r 25 A. CORRECT.
r 26
27
Q. AND ON 17-3, WHICH IS THE LEFT GLOVE -- BECAUSE
YOU SWABBED THE INNER LEFT GLOVE, CORRECT?
r 28 A. YES.
r
993
,
l
1 Q. -- IT'S ONE IN 65.
2 A. YES. THAT WOULD BE THE APPROXIMATE l
3 PROBABILITY, IS THAT PEOPLE WOULD MATCH TO THE SAME
4 DEGREE THAT I DETERMINED MR. DOMINGUEZ WOULD MATCH. l
Q. NOW, YOU ALSO SAID THAT THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE
5
6 WAS A MIXTURE OF AT LEAST FOUR CONTRIBUTORS.
l
7
8
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
AND YOU GOT THAT BY COUNTING THE NUMBER OF
l
9 ALLELES IN A GIVEN LOCUS. l
10 A. YES. YOU LOOK FOR THE DNA MARK THAT HAS THE
11 MAXIMUM NUMBER OF DNA TYPES DETECTED, AND THEN YOU l
12 ESTIMATE THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD BE
13 REQUIRED TO PRODUCE THAT NUMBER OF DNA TYPES.
l
14
15
Q. AND NOT ONLY WAS THERE FOUR CONTRIBUTORS, BUT
YOU ALSO FURTHER ASCERTAINED THAT THERE IS ONE MAJOR
l
16 CONTRIBUTOR, RIGHT?
l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. AND POTENTIALLY THREE OTHER MINOR CONTRIBUTORS l
19 TO THAT MIXTURE.
21 Q. NOW, YOU USED THE WORD "MINIMUM AMOUNT OF
22 CONTRIBUTORS," RIGHT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY IS THAT?
l
25 A. BECAUSE IN COMPLEX MIXTURES LIKE THAT, THE TRUE l
26 NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS IS VERY, VERY HARD TO DETERMINE
27 FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REASONS. AND SO WHILE THE l
28 TRUE NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS IS KIND OF HARD TO ARRIVE
l
l
r 994
r 1 AT, THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS IS QUITE EASY TO

r 2 ARRIVE AT. AND SO THAT IS WHAT WE REPORT IN OUR
3 REPORTS.
r 4 Q. SO LET ME REPHRASE IT. CORRECT ME IF I'M
WRONG.
r 5
6
FORENSICALLY SPEAKING, YOU KNOW THERE ARE AT
LEAST FOUR CONTRIBUTORS IN, SAY, 16-3, RIGHT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT THERE MAY BE FIVE OR SIX OR EVEN SEVEN.
r 9 A. IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT THE -- ESSENTIALLY THERE HAS
r
10 TO BE A MINIMUM OF FOUR, BECAUSE I THINK I DETECTED A
11 MAXIMUM OF EITHER SEVEN OR EIGHT ALLELES AT A MARKER,
r 12
13
AND THERE WAS NO MARKERS THAT HAD MORE THAN EIGHT
ALLELES.
r 14
15
AND SO I CAN'T SAY FOR CERTAIN THAT THERE WERE
FIVE, BUT I ALSO CAN'T RULE IT OUT THAT A FIFTH PERSON
r 16
17
WAS IN THERE AND JUST HAPPENED TO SHARE DNA TYPES THAT
WERE PRESENT AT EVERY OTHER MARKER.
r 18 Q. OKAY. LET ME SWITCH TOPICS ON YOU FOR A
19 SECOND, MR. MONTPETIT.
r 20 HAVE YOU HEARD THE EXPRESSION DNA CANNOT TELL A
r 21
22
LIE?
A. OTHER THAN YOU JUST SAYING IT NOW, NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY THAT?
I WOULD ASSUME THAT WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT IS
r 25 THAT THE FACT THAT DNA IS ON A PARTICULAR ITEM, I CANNOT

26 TELL WHEN IT GOT THERE.
r 27 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THIS BEER BOTTLE, YOU
28 DIDN'T ACTUALLY SWAB THIS BEER BOTTLE. MAYBE ONE OF THE
r
r
995
l
l
1 FIELD INVESTIGATORS DID.
2 A. ONE OF THE CRIME SCENE SPECIALISTS SWABBED THE l
3 BEER BOTTLE.
4 Q. OKAY. SO JUST FROM RUNNING THE TEST ON IT l
ALONE, YOU CAN'T TELL AT WHAT POINT IN TIME THE
5
6 BIOLOGICAL SAMPLE WAS PLACED ON THE BEER BOTTLE.

l
7
8
A. I CAN MAKE A PRETTY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION THAT
IT WAS AT THE TIME THE BEER WAS CONSUMED.
l
9 Q. AND THAT'S NOT BASED ON -- YOU DO A PCR TO GET l
10 THIS RESULT, RIGHT?
11 A. CORRECT. l
12 Q. THAT ASSUMPTION ISN'T BASED ON PCR.
13 A. NO. THAT ASSUMPTION WOULD BASED ON THE FACT
l
14
15
THAT THE MOST LIKELY METHOD OF TRANSFERRING DNA TO THE
BEER BOTTLE WOULD BE WHEN THE BEER WAS CONSUMED.
l
16 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, NOT TAKING THE BEER BOTTLE, l
17 BUT TAKING -- LET'S USE A PROSECUTION 152, THIS STAIN
18 HERE, YOU DON'T KNOW, BUT THAT MIGHT BE BLOOD, RIGHT? l
19 A. IT MIGHT BE, YES.
20 Q. KIND OF LOOKS LIKE BLOOD? l
21 A. IT DOES.
22 Q. IF YOU SWABBED THAT BLOOD RIGHT NOW AND DID A
l
23
24
PCR ANALYSIS ON IT, COULD YOU POTENTIALLY GET A PROFILE
ON IT?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. HYPOTHETICALLY, IF THIS T-SHIRT WAS IMPOUNDED
27 AND THIS BLOOD HAS BEEN THERE FOR ABOUT TWO AND A HALF l
28 YEARS -- KNOWING THAT, WOULD YOU STILL BE ABLE TO GET A
l
l
r 996
r 1 PROFILE OFF OF IT?
r 2 A. IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, YES.
r 3
4
Q. AND LET'S SAY THERE WAS A NEW BLOODSTAIN THAT
WAS PUT ON THIS SHIRT EARLIER THIS MORNING AND YOU
r 5
6
SWABBED THAT, WOULD THERE BE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
RESULT YOU GOT BETWEEN THE OLD BLOODSTAIN AND THE NEW
r 7
8
BLOODSTAIN?
A. DNA-WISE, NO, THERE WOULD NOT.
r 9
10
Q. SO IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, MR. MONTPETIT, YOU
TESTED SEVERAL ITEMS, RIGHT?
r 11 A. YES, SIR.
r 12
13
Q. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TESTED ITEM NO. 2 WHICH IS A
SWAB FROM BLOODSTAINING ON A HAT?
r 14
15
A. I THINK I TOOK AN ACTUAL PORTION OF THE STAIN
FROM THE HAT.
r 16
17
Q. WELL, BEFORE I GO THROUGH THIS LIST, LET ME DO
JUST A QUICK REFRESHER ON PCR. PCR -- I HAVE A HARD
r 18 TIME PRONOUNCING THAT FIRST WORD?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
POLYMERASE.
POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
BASICALLY YOU'RE TAKING A BIOLOGICAL SAMPLE,
r 23
24
RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. AND YOU'RE, YOU SAID, XEROXING IT TO PRODUCE
r 26
27
THESE PEAKS THAT GO ONTO ELECTROPHEROGRAMS.
A. PCR ESSENTIALLY FUNCTIONS LIKE A LITTLE
r 28 MOLECULAR COPY MACHINE. AND WITH THE COMPONENTS THAT WE
r
997
l
l
1 PUT INTO THE REACTION, IT COPIES SMALL SECTIONS OF THE
2 DNA MOLECULE REPEATEDLY THROUGH A PROCESS OF TEMPERATURE l
3 CYCLING, PRODUCING MANY MILLIONS OF COPIES OF THE DNA
4 MOLECULE. l J
5 Q. NOW, I MISSED THIS, SO LET ME HIT ON IT.

6 WHEN YOU DO THE PCR PROCESS, THE INFORMATION
l
7
8
THAT YOU GET IS PEAKS, RIGHT?
A. IT IS REPRESENTED IN OUR RESULTS AS PEAKS, YES.
l
9 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU SWABBED A T-SHIRT -- SAY l
10 YOU SWABBED THAT T-SHIRT I JUST SHOWED YOU FOR BLOOD --
11 THE PCR WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT THAT l
12 WAS BLOOD. YOU JUST KNOW BECAUSE YOU SAW IT AND IT WAS
13 BLOOD. l
14
15
A. WELL, LIKE I EXPLAINED YESTERDAY, WE DO HAVE
CHEMICAL TESTS TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMETHING IS LIKELY
l
16 BLOOD, AND WE EVEN HAVE TESTS TO CONFIRM THE PRESENCE OF
l
17 BLOOD. BUT PCR IN AND OF ITSELF CAN'T DETERMINE THAT.
18 WE HAVE TO DO ADDITIONAL TESTS IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF l
19 SOMETHING IS A PARTICULAR BIOLOGICAL FLUID.
20 Q. FOR INSTANCE, IN A RAPE CASE, IF YOU DO DNA l
21 TESTING ON THE VICTIM AND YOU GET A MIXTURE SAMPLE, YOU
22 WOULD ASSUME THAT THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR IS PROBABLY FROM
l
23
24
CELLS OF THE VICTIM AND THAT THE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR WOULD
PROBABLY BE SEMEN.
l
25 A. IN SEXUAL ASSAULT CASES, WE DO A FAIR AMOUNT OF l
26 WORK TO IDENTIFY MICROSCOPICALLY WHETHER WE HAVE SPERM
27 CELLS PRESENT OR NOT, AND THEN WE PERFORM A PRETTY l
28 RIGOROUS EXTRACTION PURIFICATION PROCESS THAT ATTEMPTS
l
l
r 998
r 1 TO SEPARATE THE SPERM CELLS FROM NON-SPERM CELLS.
r 2 BUT IN THAT CASE, AGAIN, WE ARE DOING -- WE'RE
r 3
4
PRIOR TO PCR TO IDENTIFY THE BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL THAT
WE'RE TESTING, AND THE PCR ESSENTIALLY IS JUST COPYING
r 5
6
THE DNA.
PRESENT.
IT DOESN'T TELL US ANYTHING OTHER THAN DNA IS
r 7
8
Q. FOR EXAMPLE, ON A T-SHIRT, WHEN YOU SWABBED THE
COLLAR, YOU MIGHT GET YOU MIGHT RUN THAT THROUGH YOUR
r 9
10
PCR PROCESS AND GET PEAKS FROM THAT, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 11 Q. IF YOU DON'T SEE ANY STAINING, YOU MIGHT ASSUME
r
L
12 THAT IT'S SKIN CELLS.
13 A. SKIN CELLS; COULD BE SALIVA; COULD BE SWEAT.
r 14
15
IT COULD COME FROM A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT SOURCES IN THAT
SITUATION.
r 16
17
Q. AGAIN, THE PEAKS THAT YOU GET FROM THE PCR
PROCESS, THAT DOES NOT TELL YOU THAT, YES, THIS IS SKIN
r 18 CELLS OR HAIR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
19 A. CORRECT. IT'S ESSENTIALLY COPYING THE DNA. IT

r 20 DOESN'T TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE
r 21
22
BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL IT CAME FROM.
Q. OKAY. GOING BACK TO THE ITEMS THAT YOU TESTED,
r 23
24
ITEM 2 WAS BLOODSTAINING ON A HAT, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 25 Q. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN THAT THROUGH THE PCR
r 26
27
PROCESS?
A. A SINGLE TIME.
r 28 Q. FS8A WAS THE BEER BOTTLE ON THE SLIDE BEHIND
r
999
l
l
1 YOU. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN THAT?
2 A. ONE TIME. l
3 Q. FS9A, THE SWAB OF THE MOUTH OF THE BEER BOTTLE,
4 HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN THAT? l
A. JUST ONCE.
5
6 Q. FS10A, ANOTHER BEER BOTTLE.
l
7 A. JUST ONCE.
FS13?
l
8 Q.
9 A. ONE TIME. l
10 Q. FS15?
l
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
AGAIN, ONCE.
ITEM 16-1, WHICH IS THE OUTSIDE OF THE GLOVES?
16-1 WAS TESTED ONCE.
,
J
14
15
Q.
A.
17-1, WHICH IS THE OUTSIDE OF THE LEFT GLOVE?
TESTED ONCE.
l
16 Q. 35-A, A REFERENCE BLOODSTAIN FROM THE VICTIM IN l
17 THIS CASE?
18 A. I TESTED IT ONCE. l
19 Q. ITEM 37, THE T-SHIRT BRAND DOUBLE XL WITH
20 APPARENT BLOODSTAINS ON THE FRONT AND BACK, THERE WAS l
21 37-1, WHICH WAS ONE STAIN. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN
22 THAT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
ONCE.
37-2, WHICH IS ANOTHER STAIN?
l
25 A. ONCE. l
26 Q. ITEMS 40, THE APPARENT BLOODSTAINS COLLECTED
27 FROM 4075 FRANKLIN AVENUE, HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN l
28 THAT?
l
l
r 1000
r 1 A. ONCE.
r 2 Q. ITEM 43, THE WHITE STAFFORD BRAND SLEEVELESS
r 3
4
SHIRT, LOOKS LIKE 43-A.
A. I DIDN'T TEST ANYTHING FROM 43-A.
r 5
6
Q. HOW ABOUT 44, LOOKS LIKE BLOODSTAINS ON THAT
SHIRT, 44-1, 44-2 AND 44-3 -- NO. EXCUSE ME.
r 7
8
44-1 AND 44-2 ARE BLOODSTAINS.
DID YOU RUN 44-1?

HOW MANY TIMES
r 9 A. ONCE.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT 44-2?
ONCE.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT 44-3?
ONCE.
r 14
15
Q. 17-1 -- EXCUSE ME -- 17-2, OR THE INSIDE OF THE
LEFT GLOVE, HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN A PCR ON THAT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
17-2, A SINGLE TIME.
HOW ABOUT THE INSIDE OF THE GLOVE OF 17-3?
r 18 A. A SINGLE TIME.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
SO THE INSIDE OF 17-3 WAS RUN TWICE?
THE INSIDE OF 17-3?
r 21
22
Q. THE INNER LEFT GLOVE, WHETHER WE CALL IT 17-2
OR 17-3 -- THE INNER LEFT GLOVE WAS SWABBED, RUN FOR PCR
r 23
24
ONCE --
A. YES.
r 25 Q. AND THEN THAT WAS WHEN, IN 2009?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
THE FIRST TIME, I BELIEVE, WAS 2008.
AND THEN IT WAS SWABBED AGAIN AND RAN FOR PCR
r 28 AGAIN IN 2011.
r
1001
1
l
1 A. CORRECT.
l
2
3
4
Q.
A.
THE INSIDE OF THE RIGHT GLOVE, THAT WAS SWABBED
IN 2008 AS WELL.
YES.
,
J
Q. AND THAT WAS PCR'D THEN.

5
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. THEN IT WAS SWABBED AGAIN IN 2009 AND RAN FOR
PCR AGAIN.
l
9 A. NO, NOT EXACTLY. 16-2 I RAN ONCE IN 2008, AND l
10 .THEN I TOOK THE SAME DNA EXTRACT -- I DIDN'T SWAB THE
11 GLOVE AGAIN -- AND I PERFORMED AN ADDITIONAL PCR TEST ON l
12 THE SAME DNA EXTRACTS OR THE SAME SAMPLE. I AMPLIFIED
13 IT TWICE USING PCR.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
SO 16-2 YOU PCR'D TWO TIMES.
RIGHT.
l
16 Q. AND THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE, AGAIN, WAS SWABBED
l
17 AGAIN AS 16-3.
18 A. YES. AGAIN, 16-3 WAS TAKEN AND -- A NEW SWAB l
19 WAS TAKEN. THAT SWAB WAS PROCESSED.
20 Q. THAT WAS PCR -- I GUESS THAT WAS THE THIRD PCR l
21 RUN ON THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE.
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. SO OUT OF ALL OF THE PIECES OF PHYSICAL
EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, THE ONLY ONES THAT GOT PCR'D
l
25 MULTIPLE TIMES WAS THE INSIDES OF THE GLOVES. l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND THAT'S OVER A PERIOD OF TWO AND A HALF l
28 YEARS.
l
l
r 1002
r 1 A. CORRECT.
r 2 Q. LET'S TAKE A MOMENT AND GO OVER THE RESULTS OF

3 THE OTHER PIECES OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.
r 4 I'M GOING TO NEED AN EXHIBIT TAG, BUT CAN WE
5 MARK IT AFTER?
r 6 THE CLERK: I'D RATHER DO IT NOW, NEXT IN
r 7
8
ORDER.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YEAH. IT WILL BE NEXT IN
r 9
10
ORDER.
THE COURT: IS THAT RR OR SS?
r 11 THE CLERK: IT'S RR.
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S GOING TO BE BUTCHER
PAPER, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE A LIST OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.
r 14
15
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT RR, BUTCHER PAPER, WAS
r 16
17
Q. SO DO YOU HAVE YOUR REPORTS TO REFRESH YOUR
r 18 RECOLLECTION, MR. MONTPETIT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I DO.
I'VE MARKED A PIECE OF BUTCHER PAPER AS RR.
r 21
22
I'M GOING TO WRITE DOWN CERTAIN FACTS ON THIS PIECE OF
BUTCHER PAPER BASED ON YOUR ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS.
r 23
24
ALL RIGHT?
ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAME UP IN YOUR TESTING
r 25
26
WAS THE VICTIM, MOISES LOPEZ, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 27 Q. SO WHICH ITEMS DID HE APPEAR ON?
r 28 LET ME HELP YOU. WAS IT ITEM NO. 2?
r
1003
l
l
1 A. YES.
l
2
3
4
Q. AND THAT'S THE HAT.
AND IT WAS ITEMS 16 AND 17-1, SO THE OUTSIDES
OF THE GLOVES?
, J
5 A. YES.
6 Q. IT WAS ALSO ITEM NO. 40?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
STAYING ON THE GLOVES, HE ALSO CAME UP ON 16-2,
l
9 THE FIRST PCR ANALYSIS. l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND HE ALSO CAME UP ON 16-3. l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND HE CAME UP ON 17-2.
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
17-2 IS THE FIRST PCR, THE INSIDE OF THE LEFT
l
16 GLOVE.
l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. I MISSED ONE HERE, AND IT'S GOING TO BE OUT OF l
19 ORDER, BUT THIS ONE WILL STAND FOR THE FIRST PCR. BUT
20 THERE WAS A SECOND 16-2, BECAUSE YOU RAN THAT SAMPLE l
21 TWICE.
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
WELL.
SO 16-2 SECOND, MR. LOPEZ CAME UP ON THAT AS
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. AND THEN ALSO 17-3. AND 17-3 IS THE SECOND
27 SWAB AND PCR OF THE INNER LEFT GLOVE. l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
l
r 1004
r 1 Q. IN ADDITION TO THAT, HE CAME UP ON ITEM NO. 6,
r 2 CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN ALSO IN YOUR TESTING CAME FLORENCIO
r 5
6
DOMINGUEZ, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
FS8A, RIGHT?
HE CAME UP ON ITEM 8, WHICH WAS IN YOUR REPORT
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
241, RIGHT?
BUT IT'S ITEM 8 ON THE CHART, PROSECUTION'S
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THE SWAB FS8A WAS TAKEN FROM ITEM 8.
AND HE ALSO CAME UP ON ITEM 10.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS AT
r 16
17
LENGTH, SO LET'S SKIP OVER IT RIGHT NOW AND I'LL PUT
THEM IN PARENTHESES, BUT THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE AND THE
r 18 INNER LEFT GLOVE, IT'S YOUR OPINION THAT HE'S A POSSIBLE
r 19
20
MINOR CONTRIBUTOR, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
AND 16-3.
AND THAT WOULD BE JUST 16-2 THE SECOND, 17-3
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
JOSUE GUTIERREZ, HE CAME UP?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES, HE DID.
NOW, ACCORDING TO YOUR ANALYSIS, HE'S A
r 27 POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO 16-3.
r 28 A. YES.
r
1005
l
l
1 Q. I'M GOING TO WRITE "POSSIBLE," AND THAT'S 16-3
2 AND THAT'S THE SWAB OF THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE. l

3 A. YES.
4 Q. VICTOR RAMOS CAME UP QUITE A BIT, RIGHT?

l J
5 A. YES, HE DID.
6 Q. HE WAS ON 37-2, WHICH IS A BLOODSTAIN ON A

l ~
8
T-SHIRT, RIGHT, POSSIBLE MINOR?
A. IF I CAN CHECK THAT
l
9 Q. PLEASE DO. I WROTE IT ALREADY, BUT YOU MIGHT l J
10 AS WELL CHECK IT.

l
11
12
13
A.
Q.
37-2 WAS THE SWAB OF THE COLLAR OF THE T-SHIRT,
NOT A BLOODSTAIN.
WAS HE ON 37-1?
, J
14
15
A.
Q.
NO. THAT WAS MR. ZEPADA.
LET ME TAKE A LOOK AT MY REPORT.

l
16 WHAT REPORT ARE YOU LOOKING AT, MR. MONTPETIT?
l
17 A. THE ONE DATED DECEMBER 23, 2008. CONCLUSION
18 NO. 2 DEALS WITH ITEM 37-2. l
19 Q. 37-1, ISN'T IT?
20 A. 37-1 IS, I BELIEVE, THE BLOODSTAIN FROM THE l
21 T-SHIRT.
22 Q. OH, ALL RIGHT. SO I WAS RIGHT WITH THE NUMBER
l
23
24
BUT I WAS WRONG ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS BLOOD; IS THAT
RIGHT? LOOK ON THAT SAME REPORT, THE NEXT PARAGRAPH UP.
l
25 A. 37-2 IS A SWAB OF THE T-SHIRT COLLAR, AND, YES, l
26 VICTOR RAMOS WAS INCLUDED AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT
27 SAMPLE. l
28 Q. AND IT'S A MIXTURE SAMPLE.
l
l
r 1006
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. SO HE'S A MAJOR?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
AND IT'S NOT BLOOD, OR AT LEAST YOU DIDN'T SEE
r 5
6
ANY BLOOD.
A. I DID NOT SEE ANY BLOOD THERE.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
SIRIA FORD CAME UP, RIGHT?
YES, SHE DID.
r 9 Q. SHE WAS ON ITEM 15 AND ITEM 12?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES, SWABS OF BEER CANS.
AND THIS IS A SINGLE SOURCE, BOTH OF THEM?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
SO, AGAIN THAT IS A HIGH DEGREE OF PROBABILITY.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AS OPPOSED TO JOSUE GUTIERREZ, WHO WAS A MUCH,
r 16
17
MUCH LOWER DEGREE OF PROBABILITY.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 18 Q. AND THEN THERE WAS ALSO SOME UNKNOWN PROFILES
r 19
20
THAT YOU FOUND.
A. I BELIEVE THERE WAS ONE UNKNOWN PROFILE THAT
r 21
22
REMAINS.
Q. ONE FOR SURE UNKNOWN?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THAT IS -- WAS IT 13, IF I RECALL
r 25 CORRECTLY?
r
27 Q. SO ITEM 13?
r 28 A. YES.
r
, j
I
1007
l
1 Q. BUT ACTUALLY, THERE ARE MORE UNKNOWNS IN THE
2 MIX AS WELL, RIGHT? l
3 A. YES. I HAVEN'T IDENTIFIED EVERYBODY THAT COULD
4 HAVE POSSIBLY CONTRIBUTED TO THE MIXTURE SAMPLES.
1 J
Q. FOR EXAMPLE, 37-2, RIGHT? IT WAS A MIXTURE

5
6 SAMPLE WITH TWO UNKNOWN PROFILES.

l
7
8
A.
Q.
THERE WAS AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE ON 37-2.
AND YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO IDENTIFY THOSE PEOPLE?
l
9 A. I ONLY WAS ABLE TO CONCLUDE THAT VICTOR RAMOS 1 j
10 WAS A POSSIBLE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR. I HAVEN'T INCLUDED

11 ANYBODY AS POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTORS TO THAT SAMPLE. l
12 Q. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE THREE PEOPLE,
13 FORENSICALLY SPEAKING -- IT'S A FORENSIC CERTAINTY THAT l
14
15
THERE ARE THREE PEOPLE BESIDES VICTOR RAMOS -- THAT TWO
PEOPLE LEFT OVER ARE ALSO UNKNOWN PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE
l
16 MIX, RIGHT?
l
17 A. POTENTIALLY UNKNOWN. HOWEVER, WITH THAT
18 MIXTURE I'M NOT SURE IF THERE WAS ENOUGH INFORMATION TO l
19 MAKE ANY SORT OF CONCLUSIONS ABOUT POTENTIAL MINOR
20 CONTRIBUTORS. SO IT'S POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE l
21 THAT HAVE TESTED MAY HAVE BEEN ON THERE, BUT THERE IS
22 JUST NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION.
l
23
24
SO TO SAY THEY ARE UNKNOWN PEOPLE SEPARATE FROM
THE PEOPLE THAT I'VE TESTED WOULD BE A LITTLE
l
25 INACCURATE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THERE'S ENOUGH l
26 INFORMATION FOR ME TO SAY WHO WAS THERE.
27 Q. WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, UNKNOWN PERSON NUMBER ONE l
28 MIGHT HAVE ALSO BEEN ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN 37-1.
l
l
r 1008
r 1 A. IT'S POSSIBLE.
r 2 Q. SO IF ANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO YOU'VE IDENTIFIED
r
3 ARE INCLUDED IN THE TWO UNKNOWNS IN 37-2, THEN OBVIOUSLY
4 THAT WOULDN'T BE TWO ADDITIONAL PEOPLE, CORRECT?
5 A. CORRECT.
r 6 Q. BUT KNOWING THAT THE UNKNOWN PEOPLE THAT WE'RE
r 7
8
LISTING MIGHT OVERLAP WITH NOT ONLY EACH OTHER, BUT ALSO
PEOPLE WE'VE ALREADY TESTED, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE
r 9 ARE TWO PROFILES THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE IN
r 10
11
37-2.
A. THERE IS AT LEAST CONTRIBUTORS THAT I DON'T
r 12
13
KNOW WHO THEY ARE TO 37-2.
Q. BECAUSE I'M GOING TO WRITE THEM ON THE EXHIBIT,
r 14
15
AND I WANT EVERYBODY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE CAVEAT IS WE
DON'T KNOW IF THESE OVERLAP. SO WE'RE NOT COUNTING THE
r 16
17
AMOUNT OF PEOPLE. WE'RE JUST COUNTING THE AMOUNT OF
UNKNOWN PROFILES THAT POPPED UP. WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO
r 18 SAY?
r 19
20
A. THE NUMBER OF POTENTIAL PEOPLE THAT I HAVE NOT
BEEN ABLE TO DO ANY CONCLUSIONS FOR.
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. SO THE NUMBERS ARE JUST TO KEEP IT
STRAIGHT IN OUR HEAD AS TO HOW MANY THERE WERE.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA: I WOULD OBJECT TO ANYONE BEING
CHARACTERIZED AS A SEPARATE UNKNOWN GIVEN THE WITNESS'S
r 25 TESTIMONY, YOUR HONOR, IF THIS EXHIBIT IS GOING TO BE
r 26
27
USED LATER.
THE COURT: MR. MONTPETIT, HOW WOULD YOU
28 DESCRIBE IT?
r
r
1009
1
l
1 THE WITNESS: I GUESS I WOULD DESCRIBE IT AS
2 THERE ARE PROFILES FOR WHICH I HAVE CONTRIBUTORS THAT I l
3 HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY; FOR INSTANCE, ON 37-2,
4 THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE MIXTURE ON l
5 THE COLLAR OF THAT SHIRT.
6 I'VE IDENTIFIED ONE PERSON AS BEING A MAJOR
l
7 CONTRIBUTOR. THERE IS AT LEAST TWO OTHER PEOPLE THERE,
l
8
9
BUT I HAVE NO MEANS OF MAKING A COMPARISON TO THOSE
ADDITIONAL TYPES BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION.
, J
10 BUT I KNOW THERE HAS TO BE AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE THERE.
11 THE COURT: COULD ONE OF THOSE OTHER PEOPLE BE l

12 ONE OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WE KNOW ABOUT, YOU JUST DON'T
13 HAVE ENOUGH DATA? l
14
15
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
IT'S POSSIBLE, YES.
HOW CAN WE PHRASE THIS?

l
16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HOW ABOUT IF WE JUST WRITE
ON THE EXHIBIT, TO BE CLEAR -- WE WON'T NUMBER THEM, BUT
l
18 WE'LL WRITE "37-2," AND THEN UNDER THAT WE'LL WRITE, l
19 "TWO ADDITIONAL PROFILES NOT IDENTIFIED." DOES THAT
20 SATISFY EVERYONE? l
21 THE COURT: I THINK. YES, THANK YOU.
l
23
24
Q. SO IN ADDITION TO -- THIS ONE IS -- ITEM 13 IS
SEPARATE, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE YOU DO KNOW THAT THE PERSON
l
25 ON 13 IS NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE. l~
26 A. RIGHT. BECAUSE IT'S A SINGLE SOURCE SAMPLE,
27 I'M ABLE TO SAY WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY THAT EVERYBODY I l
28 TESTED IS EXCLUDED FROM BEING THE SOURCE OF THAT DNA.
l
l
r 1010
r 1 SO THAT IS DEFINITIVELY ONE EXTRA PERSON THAT IS AN
r 2 UNKNOWN.
r
3 Q. AND SO 37-2, GOING OFF OF JUST THIS ITEM, WE'RE
4 GOING TO HAVE TWO UNKNOWN PROFILES; WOULD THAT BE
r 5
6
ACCURATE?
A. THERE IS TWO ADDITIONAL CONTRIBUTORS TO THAT
r 7
8
WHO I'M UNABLE TO PROFILE.
THE COURT: TWO ADDITIONAL PROFILES NOT
r 9
10
IDENTIFIED IS HOW I THINK WE AGREED. PUT BRACKETS
UNDERNEATH IT, "ADDITIONAL PROFILES NOT IDENTIFIED."
r 11 THANK YOU.
r 12
13 THIS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME JUST SCRATCH OUT
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THANK YOU.
BECAUSE WE AGREED THAT'S NOT
r 16
17
WHAT WE'RE GOING TO CALL IT.
IS THAT ACCEPTABLE TO YOU, MR. MONTPETIT?
r 19
20
Q. 44-3, DO YOU REMEMBER TESTING THAT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
THAT WAS A MIXTURE SAMPLE OF WHO?
r 23
24
A.
FROM 44-3.
THAT WAS -- A LOW LEVEL OF DNA WAS RECOVERED
r 25 Q. AND YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO IDENTIFY WHO THAT
r 26
27
BELONGED TO?
A. NO. THERE WASN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION IN THAT
r 28 SAMPLE TO MAKE ANY CONCLUSIONS.
r
~
J
1011
l
1 Q. WAS IT A FULL PROFILE?
2 A. NO, IT WAS NOT. 1 j
3 Q. SO WE'LL LEAVE THAT ONE OFF.

4 AND THEN 17-3 HAD MOISES LOPEZ AND THREE l
5 ADDITIONAL PEOPLE, RIGHT? WE'LL START WITH 17-3.
6 A. 17-3 WAS A MIXTURE OF FOUR PEOPLE. MOISES
l
7
8
LOPEZ WAS INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO
THAT MIXTURE, AND THERE'S AT LEAST THREE OTHER
l
9 CONTRIBUTORS TO THAT MIXTURE. l
10 Q. AND THERE IS -- AGAIN, MR. DOMINGUEZ YOU THINK
11 IS A POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR, RIGHT? l
12 A. I INCLUDED HIM AS A POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR,
13 THAT'S CORRECT. l
14
15
Q. BUT UNLIKE SIRIA FORD ON 15 AND 12, WHERE SHE'S
A VERY HIGH DEGREE OF PROBABILITY, HE'S A MUCH, MUCH
l
16 LOWER DEGREE OF PROBABILITY ON 16-3.
l
17 A. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT 17-3?
18 Q. 17-3, EXCUSE ME. l
20 Q. SO WE CAN SAY THAT HYPOTHETICALLY IF MOISES IS l
21 A CONTRIBUTOR AND FLORENCIO IS A CONTRIBUTOR -- I'M NOT
22 SAYING THAT'S TRUE, BUT HYPOTHETICALLY THERE WOULD BE
l
23
24
TWO MORE UNKNOWN PEOPLE?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. SO THERE WOULD BE TWO ADDITIONAL PROFILES NOT l
26 IDENTIFIED?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND 16-3, WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THE REASONING
l
l
r 1012
[
1 FOR THAT, IT WOULD BE THE SAME RESULT, RIGHT?
r 2 A. CORRECT, YES.
3 Q. TWO ADDITIONAL PROFILES NOT IDENTIFIED?
~
[ 4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q. THANK YOU, MR. MONTPETIT.
SO WE ALREADY WENT THROUGH THE FACT THAT -- I
r 7
8
WANT TO MOVE THIS TV BACK SO WE CAN ALL SEE IT BETTER.
SO WE ALREADY WENT WITH THE GLOVES BEING TESTED
r 9 MULTIPLE TIMES, THOSE BEING THE ONLY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
r 10
11
THAT WAS TESTED MULTIPLE TIMES.
ON THIS POWERPOINT, MR. MONTPETIT, WE HAVE THE
r 12
13
17-2, WHAT WOULD BE THE FIRST TEST, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. THIS IS THE INNER LEFT GLOVE INSIDE, AND THIS
IS THE RESULT YOU GOT.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
AND SO BASED ON THIS, IF WE JUST TAKE A CURSORY
r 18 LOOK AT IT, IT WOULD BE A MINIMUM OF TWO CONTRIBUTORS,
r 19
20
IF WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT THIS, RIGHT?
A. THAT IS CORRECT, YES.
r 21
22
Q. AND THAT, AGAIN -- LET'S GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN,
BECAUSE IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.
r 23
24
AT ANY GIVEN LOCUS --AND IT'S HELPFUL TO USE
THE LOCUS WITH THE MOST ALLELES, RIGHT?
r 25 A. YES.
r
26 Q. IS ALLELES CORRECT?
27 A. IT IS.
r 28 Q. I DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE
r
1013
l
1 LATIN PLURALS.
2 OKAY. SO D19, WHICH IS THE LOCUS WITH THE MOST l J
3 ALLELES
5 Q. IT HAS FOUR ALLELES?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. AND SO THAT WOULD SAY FOUR DIVIDED BY TWO IS
TWO, SO THERE WOULD BE TWO CONTRIBUTORS.
l
9 A. THERE WOULD BE A MINIMUM OF TWO CONTRIBUTORS IN l
10 THAT SAMPLE.
11 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU SWABBED THE GLOVE AGAIN, YOU l
12 GOT THIS RESULT.
14
15
Q. AND NOW THIS RESULT IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX THAN
THE FIRST ONE.
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF LOCI WITH A NUMBER OF
18 ALLELES, BUT THE ONE WITH THE MOST WOULD PROBABLY BE l
19 WHAT, D21 OR WOULD IT BE FGA?
20 A. I THINK IT'S FGA. l
21 Q. FGA HAS SEVEN ALLELES.
l
22
23
A.
Q.
THAT IS CORRECT.
AND, AGAIN, THESE NUMBERS REPRESENT PEAKS.
,
J
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND so BASED ON THERE BEING SEVEN, THAT'S HOW l
26 YOU GET THAT THERE'S A MINIMUM OF FOUR PEOPLE.
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. BECAUSE IF YOU DIVIDE SEVEN BY TWO, IT'S THREE
l
l
r 1014
r 1 AND A HALF. AND SO IF THERE IS FOUR PEOPLE, WHICH THERE
r 2
3
MAY BE, EITHER ONE OF THEM OVERLAP, AND IF THERE IS NO
OVERLAP, ONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE TO BE HOMOZYGOUS AT THIS
r 4 LOCUS.
r 5
6
A. THAT WOULD BE ASSUMING THAT EVERY PIECE OF DNA
THAT WAS IN THE SAMPLE WAS DETECTED, THEN, YES, THAT
r 7
8
WOULD BE ACCURATE.
Q. OKAY. SO THEN WE HAVE THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE,
r 9
10
AND THIS IS THE FIRST PCR ANALYSIS YOU DID ON IT, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 11 Q. AND THE ONE WITH THE MOST -- THE LOCUS WITH THE
r 12
13
MOST ALLELES, WOULD IT BE D19?
JUROR NO. 11: I'M SORRY. IS THIS 16-2?
r 14
15
THE COURT: IT IS 16-2, IS IT NOT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 16-2, YES.
r 16
17
Q. THE ONE WITH THE MOST -- THE LOCUS WITH THE
r 18 MOST ALLELES WOULD BE D19; AM I SEEING THAT CORRECTLY?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
D13.
SO THIS WOULD BE A MINIMUM OF THREE
r 21
22
CONTRIBUTORS.
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
BUT THEN YOU PCR'D THIS SAMPLE AGAIN.
YES.
r 25 Q. AND YOU GOT THIS RESULT.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
THIS IS ALSO 16-2, BUT IT'S ON OCTOBER 19,
r 28 2009.
r
1015
,
l
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. THIS ONE, 16-2, THE FIRST ONE, WAS DONE IN l
3 2008.
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. AND YOU WERE ABLE TO GET MORE INFORMATION,
6 RIGHT?
l
7
8
A. YES. I PUT MORE OF THE PURIFIED SAMPLE INTO
THE SECOND ANALYSIS AND WAS ABLE TO OBTAIN ADDITIONAL
l
9 DNA TYPES. l
10 Q. YOU GOT MORE PEAKS.
11 A. I DID. l
12 Q. WHAT HAPPENED HERE WITH NO. 18 -- 18 -- I'M
13 REFERRING TO 18 IN LOCUS D2, AND IT'S IN THE FIRST PCR l
14
15
OF 16-2.
A. IT WAS NOT -- IT WAS NOT DETECTED IN THE SECOND
l
16 ANALYSIS.
l
17
18
Q.
THAT SAMPLE.
OKAY. YOU DID THE TEST -- WELL, YOU DIDN'T USE
YOU TOOK A NEW SWAB, RIGHT?
,
J
19 A. NO. FOR 16-2 I TOOK THE SAME DNA EXTRACT AND I
20 DID PCR ANALYSIS ON A SECOND PORTION OF THAT SAMPLE. l
21 Q. OKAY. FOR 16-3 YOU TOOK A NEW SWAB.
22 A. YEAH. 16-3 WAS AN ENTIRELY SEPARATE SWAB.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
AND YOU GOT THIS RESULT.
YES.
l
25 Q. THIS ONE IS EVEN MORE COMPLEX THAN THE SECOND l
26 SWAB OF 16-2.
27 A. THERE IS A MINIMUM OF MORE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE l
28 SAMPLE 16-3.
l
l
r 1016
r 1 Q. NOW, THERE'S A MINIMUM OF FOUR CONTRIBUTORS.
r 2 A. CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q. SO THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHEN YOUR OPINION
ON 16-2 WAS THAT THERE WAS A MINIMUM OF THREE
r 5
6
CONTRIBUTORS, THAT WASN'T TECHNICALLY INCORRECT, RIGHT?
A. IT'S BASED ON THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF ALLELES
r 7
8
THAT THE -- IN THE PROFILE.
Q. BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE PRECISE, I GUESS,
r 9 FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, TO SAY THAT BASED ON 16-3,
r 10
11
THE MINIMUM AMOUNT IS ACTUALLY FOUR, NOT THREE.
A. BASED ON THE RESULTS OBTAINED FROM 16-3, THE
r 12
13
MINIMUM NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS TO THAT MIXTURE IS FOUR.
Q. OKAY. NOW, AGAIN, THE THING THAT MAKES THIS A
r 14
15
MIXTURE SAMPLE IS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE A TON OF
ALLELES PER LOCUS.
r 16
17
A. YES. THE FACT THAT THERE'S MORE THAN TWO
ALLELES AT PRETTY MUCH EVERY MARKER MAKES THAT A MIXTURE
r 18 OF DNA FROM MORE THAN ONE PERSON.
r 19
20
Q. WHEN COMPARING MIXTURE SAMPLES TO REFERENCE
SAMPLES OF PEOPLE, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MORE ALLELES GET
r 21
22
ADDED?
A. THE MORE ALLELES THAT ARE PRESENT, THE MORE
r 23
24
PEOPLE COULD BE INCLUDED.
Q. TO USE A NET AS AN ANALOGY, WOULD IT BE
r 25 ACCURATE TO SAY THAT IT CASTS A WIDER AND WIDER NET THE

MORE ALLELES THAT POP UP?
r
26
27 A. THE MORE ALLELES REPRESENT MORE PEOPLE, SO,
28 YES, I THINK THAT WOULD BE FAIR.
r
r
1017
,
l
1 Q. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CHANCE THAT SOMEBODY
l
,
2 WOULD RANDOMLY MATCH UP. SEE, ON 16-2 THE CHANCE THAT
3 SOMEBODY WOULD RANDOMLY MATCH UP IS LOWER THAN ON 16-3.
4 A. THE -- YES, THAT WOULD BE ACCURATE. J
5 Q. AND THAT'S BECAUSE WITH MORE PEAKS, THE NET

6 GETS WIDER AND MORE PEOPLE BECOME LIKELY TO RANDOMLY
l
7
8
MATCH UP, RIGHT?
A. YES.
l
l
9
10
11
12
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
I'M WORKING WITH A LOT OF
EXHIBITS, YOUR HONOR, SO GIVE ME A MOMENT.
NO WORRIES.
,
13 Q. I WANT TO DIVERT FOR A SECOND, MR. MONTPETIT, l
14
15
AND TALK ABOUT WHY THESE ITEMS WERE TESTED MULTIPLE
TIMES AND ALL THE OTHER PIECES OF EVIDENCE WERE NOT.
l
16 I'M GOING TO BRING A COUPLE OF EXHIBITS OVER
l
17 FOR YOU TO LOOK AT, IT WILL BE EXHIBITS DD AND EE, BUT
18 BEFORE I DO, TALKING ABOUT SPECIFICALLY THE SECOND PCR l
19 DONE IN OCTOBER OF 2009 OF 16-2, WHICH IS ON THE SLIDE
l
20
21
22
BEHIND YOU, YOU ALREADY HAD A PCR DONE ON 16-2.
A.
WHY DID YOU DO ANOTHER ONE?
IT WAS REQUESTED OF ME.
,
23
24
Q.
A.
BY WHOM?
I BELIEVE IT WAS DETECTIVE LAMBERT.
l
25 Q. DO YOU KNOW DETECTIVE LAMBERT? l
26 A. I KNOW HE'S A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE.
27 Q. I MEAN, DO YOU KNOW WHO HE IS? l
28 A. HE'S BEEN SITTING IN THE COURTROOM RIGHT HERE.
l
l
r 1018
r 1 Q. IS HE THIS GENTLEMAN, BALD, GLASSES, AND A VERY
r 2 NICE SUIT TODAY?
r 3
4
A. YES.
THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL REFLECT
r 5
6
IDENTIFICATION OF DETECTIVE LAMBERT.
r 7
8
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT DO, LABORATORY DNA
REQUEST FORM, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 9
10
Q. SHOWING YOU FIRST ITEM DO, DO YOU RECOGNIZE
r 11 THAT ITEM?
r 12
13
A. IT APPEARS TO BE A COPY OF A WORK REQUEST THAT
I RECEIVED.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
AND THAT IS THIS SHEET, RIGHT?
YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
THIS IS A FORM USED IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?
YES. IT'S -- BY THE TITLE, IT IS A LABORATORY
r 18 DNA REQUEST FORM THAT'S FILLED OUT BY INVESTIGATORS WHO
r 19
20
WANT DNA ANALYSIS PERFORMED IN A CASE.
Q. AND SO THE WAY THIS WORKS IS A DETECTIVE OR A
r 21
22
POLICE OFFICER OR MAYBE A DISTRICT ATTORNEY OR SOMEBODY
INVOLVED IN THE CASE WOULD FILL THIS OUT AND ASK FOR
r 23
24
FURTHER TESTING TO BE DONE.
A. DOESN'T NECESSARILY NEED TO BE FURTHER TESTING,
r 25 BUT JUST ANY TESTING IN GENERAL.
r 26
27
Q. THIS IS NOT SPECIFIC TO JUST THE DNA UNIT OR
LAB OR WHATEVER YOU GUYS CALL IT, BUT IT IS ALSO ACROSS
r 28 THE BOARD FOR ANY KIND OF FORENSIC TESTING; FOR EXAMPLE,
r
1019
l
l
1 GSR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
2 A. THIS REQUEST ACTUALLY THAT'S ON THE POWERPOINT l
3 RIGHT NOW IS SPECIFICALLY FOR DNA. DIFFERENT UNITS
4 WITHIN THE LAB HAVE THEIR OWN REQUEST FORMS THAT l
5 INVESTIGATORS WOULD FILL OUT.
6 Q. NOW, WHEN THIS REQUEST WAS MADE -- AND YOU
l
7
8
ALREADY HAD THE PCR ON 16-2, THE FIRST ONE THAT WAS DONE
IN 2008 -- DETECTIVE LAMBERT WAS ASKING YOU TO TEST IT
l
9 AGAIN AND COMPARE IT SPECIFICALLY IT TO FS8, THE BEER l
10 BOTTLE THAT MATCHED FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ; IS THAT
11 CORRECT? l
12 A. I BELIEVE THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
13 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT EE, REPORT OF ANALYSIS, l
14
15
l
16 Q. IN FACT, LET ME SHOW YOU DEFENSE EE. THIS IS A
l
17 REPORT BY YOU, CORRECT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. AND THAT IS JUST THE FIRST PAGE. THIS IS A
20 MULTIPLE-PAGE REPORT, RIGHT? l
21 A. YES, IT WAS A MULTIPLE-PAGE REPORT, AND THIS IS
22 THE FIRST PAGE OF MY OCTOBER 19, 2009, REPORT.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
OKAY.
YES.
THE REQUEST WAS MADE IN JULY OF 2009?
l
25 Q. AND THE REPORT WAS PRODUCED OCTOBER 19TH OF l
26 2009.
28 Q. AND IN THE REPORT YOU NOTE THAT SPECIFICALLY
l
l
r 1020
r 1 YOU WERE ASKED TO COMPARE THE INSIDE OF THE GLOVE TO
r 2 FS8
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. -- WHICH IS THE BEER BOTTLE.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AT THIS POINT IN TIME, YOU HAD ALREADY GOTTEN A
r 7
8
CODIS HIT ON THE BEER BOTTLE.
r 9
10
Q. SO YOU HAD KNOWN THAT IT MATCHED UP WITH THE
PROFILE OF FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ AT THAT TIME.
r 11 A. THAT WAS THE INDICATION BASED ON THE CODIS HIT,
r 12
13
WAS THAT THE DNA PROFILE FROM FS8A MATCHED TO A DNA
PROFILE IDENTIFIED AS FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
r 14
15 AGE.
Q. MR. MONTPETIT, I THINK WE'RE AROUND THE SAME
YOU MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT OLDER THAN ME.
r 16
17
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF SOMETHING CALLED THE
PEPSI CHALLENGE?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DO YOU SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER WHAT THAT WAS?
NO.
r 21
22
Q. KNOWING THAT IT WAS BASICALLY PEOPLE HAD TO
CHOOSE BETWEEN COKE AND PEPSI AND THEY WERE NOT TOLD
r 23
24
WHICH ONE WAS WHICH, THEY MAY HAVE BEEN BLINDFOLDED,
THEY HAD TO CHOOSE WHICH ONE THEY LIKED BETTER. DOES
r 25 THAT REFRESH YOU?
r 26
27
A. YES, IT DOES SOUND LIKE SOMETHING I REMEMBER
BEING CALLED THE PEPSI CHALLENGE.
r 28 Q. IT WAS LIKE IN THE '80S OR SOMETHING?
r
1021
l
1 A. UH-HUH.
l
2 Q. THE RETEST OF 16-2, THAT DIFFERS A LITTLE BIT l
3 THAN THE PEPSI CHALLENGE, DOES IT NOT?
4 A. I WOULD SAY THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT, YES. l
5 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT I'M GETTING AT IS IT'S NOT A
6 BLIND TEST. YOU WEREN'T DOING A BLIND TEST.
l
7
8
A. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
WHAT HE MEANS IS I HAD SOME KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE
IF
1
9 RESULTS OF 16-2 WERE BEFORE I DID A REANALYSIS, THAT IS l
10 ACCURATE.
11 Q. AND YOU HAD -- FOR EXAMPLE, A BLIND TEST MIGHT l
12 BE IF DETECTIVE LAMBERT CONTACTED YOU AND ASKED YOU TO
13 RE-PCR 16-2 AND RUN IT AGAINST THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND l
f=1
14 SEE IF YOU GET A MATCH, RIGHT?
J
15 A. I MEAN, ULTIMATELY DOING THE REANALYSIS ON
16 16-2, REGARDLESS OF WHAT I WAS ASKED TO COMPARE IT TO,
l
17 YOU KNOW, I WOULD HAVE DONE THE COMPARISON; THE RESULTS
18 WOULD HAVE BEEN WHAT THE RESULTS WERE. l
19 Q. BUT YOU WEREN'T ASKED TO DO AN ANALYSIS WITH
20 ALL THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, YOU WERE ASKED TO DO AN l
21 ANALYSIS SPECIFICALLY TO FS8.
l
23
24
Q. SO AT THAT POINT IN TIME IN OCTOBER OF 2009,
AFTER THE TESTS HAD BEEN RUN TWICE ON 16-2, AND 17-2 HAD
l
25 ONLY ONE PCR, YOU TESTIFIED AT A PRIOR HEARING. l
27 Q. DURING THAT HEARING, I WAS THE ONE EXAMINING l
28 YOU ON CROSS-EXAMINATION.
l
l
r 1022
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. YOU WERE DIRECT EXAMINED BY MR. TROCHA.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THAT IS CORRECT.
AND NO OTHER TESTS HAD BEEN DONE AT THAT POINT.
r 5
6
IT WAS JUST THE ONE ON 17-2 AND THEN THE TWO TESTS ON
16-2.
r 7
8
A. IN ADDITION TO ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE, YES.
BUT IF YOU'RE SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE GLOVES --
r 9 Q. CORRECT.
r 10
11
A. AT THAT TIME I HAD DONE THE TWO PCR ANALYSES ON
16-2 AND ONE ON 17-2.
r 12
13
Q. AND THEN I CROSS-EXAMINED YOU FOR -- MUCH LIKE
I'M ABOUT TO DO TODAY --A LONG TIME, LIKE A FULL DAY.
r 14
15
A. YES.
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT P, REQUEST FOR DNA
r 16
17
ANALYSIS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 18 Q. AND AFTER THAT CROSS-EXAMINATION, THAT'S
r 19
20
WHEN -- APPROACHING WITH DEFENSE 0 AND DEFENSE P --
SHORTLY AFTER THAT CROSS-EXAMINATION YOU RECEIVED THIS,
r 21
22
DID YOU NOT?
A. YES, I DID.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT IS THAT?
THAT IS ANOTHER DNA REQUEST TO PERFORM ANALYSIS
r 25
26
AGAIN ON THE GLOVES.
Q. AND FOR THE RECORD, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DEFENSE
r 27 P.
r 28 A. YES.
r
1023
l
l
1 Q. THIS DOCUMENT HERE.
2 A. YES, IT IS. l
3 Q. AND YOU RECEIVED THIS FROM KRISTIAN TROCHA?
4 A. YES, I DID. l
5 Q. KRISTIAN TROCHA IS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN
6 THIS CASE?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
l
l
9
10
11
SPECIFICALLY, HE TOLD YOU, "DNA, ALL
FINGERTIPS, AND ANYWHERE ELSE YOU BELIEVE THERE MAY BE
DNA; CUT THE GLOVES OPEN IF NECESSARY."
, J
12 A. YES.
13 Q. YOU ACTUALLY THIS ISN'T THE ONLY l
14
15
COMMUNICATION WITH HIM.
PHONE?
YOU ALSO TALKED TO HIM ON THE
l
16 A. IT MAY HAVE BEEN IN PERSON.
l
17 Q. YOU TALKED TO HIM?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. AND YOU WROTE THIS IN YOUR CASE NOTES, WHICH IS
20 DEFENSE 0. WHAT IS THIS? l
21 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 0, COMMUNICATION LOG,
22 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
23
24
THE WITNESS: THAT IS PART OF THE ANALYTICAL
RECORD THAT I KEPT FOR THIS ROUND OF TESTING. AND IT IS
l
25 A COMMUNICATION LOG, AND IT HAS THE COMMUNICATION THAT I l
26 HAD WITH DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY TROCHA.
28 Q. AND YOU NOTATE WHAT THAT CONVERSATION WAS
l
l
r 1024
r 1 ABOUT?
r 2 A. YEAH. I PUT THE GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT THAT
r 3
4
CONVERSATION.
Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 5
6
TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST -- LET'S SAY 17-2,
WHICH IS THE FIRST PCR OF THE LEFT GLOVE, AND THE FIRST
r 7
8
16-2, WHICH IS THE FIRST PCR OF THE RIGHT GLOVE, AND
ALSO 16-2, WHICH IS THE SECOND PCR OF THE RIGHT GLOVE
r 9 DURING THOSE TESTS WHEN YOU WERE DOING THE SWABBING, YOU
ONLY SWABBED THE PALM OF THE GLOVE, RIGHT?
10
r 11 A. YES.
12 Q. DID YOU SWAB ONE AREA OF THE PALM?
r 13 A. I TOOK A GENERAL SWABBING OF THE PALM.
r 14
15
Q. OKAY. AND YOU TRIED TO AVOID AREAS WHERE
BLOODSTAINING WAS ON THE REVERSE OF THAT GLOVE?
r 16 A. THAT WAS MY ATTEMPT, YES.
r
17 Q. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT THE BLOOD TO INTERFERE?
18 A. CORRECT.
19 Q. AND THAT WAS FOR -- YOU DID A TOTAL OF TWO
r 20 SWABS, RIGHT? 16-2, YOU PCR'D THAT TWICE, AND THEN
r 21
22
17-2, YOU PCR'D THAT ONCE.
A. CORRECT. A SWAB WAS USED ON THE INTERIOR OF
r 23
24
THE RIGHT GLOVE, 16-2, AND THEN ANOTHER SEPARATE SWAB
WAS USED ON THE INTERIOR OF THE LEFT GLOVE, 17-2.
r 25 Q. AND THE REASON YOU ONLY SWABBED PART OF THE
r 26
27
GLOVES IS THAT YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GET DNA JUST FROM
ANYWHERE, YOU WANTED TO GET IT FROM ONE SPOT.
28 A. I SWABBED THE PALMS BECAUSE, IN GENERAL, WHEN
r
r
1025
1
WE'RE LOOKING AT GLOVES FOR POTENTIAL PEOPLE WHO MAY
1
1
2 HAVE BEEN WEARING THEM, THE PALMS IS AN AREA THAT HAS l

3 YIELDED DNA FOR US IN THE PAST.
4 Q. READING FROM TRIAL TRANSCRIPT, PAGE 49, LINES 3 l
5 THROUGH 7 IN YOUR PRIOR TESTIMONY, YOU SAID,
6 "ESSENTIALLY WHEN I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO MIGHT
l
HAVE BEEN WEARING AN ITEM, I DON'T WANT TO GET DNA FROM
l
,
7
8 ANY POTENTIAL STAINS ON IT, BECAUSE THE STAINS WOULD

9 GENERALLY HAVE A LOT MORE DNA IN THEM THAN JUST CASUAL J
10 CONTACT WITH THEM."

11 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES. 1
12 Q. SO YOU'RE LOOKING FOR AREAS WHERE THERE WOULD
13 BE CONTACT. l
14
15
A. YES, AND THAT ARE FREE OF VISIBLE STAINING.
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT L, PHOTO OF LEFT GLOVE
l
16 TAKEN 10/13/2008, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
18 Q. SHOWING YOU EXHIBITS K AND L -- FIRST I'LL SHOW l
19 YOU EXHIBIT L. THAT IS 16-3, THE FIRST PCR -- L,
l
20
21
RIGHT?
A. L IS ITEM 17. ,
22
23
24
Q.
A.
17. SORRY. 17-2.
WELL, THIS IS A PAGE FROM MY ANALYTICAL RECORD
WHICH DETAILS MY TESTING ON ITEM 17. PART OF THAT IS
,
25 THE SAMPLING I DID FOR 17-2. l
26 Q. AND YOU INDICATE THAT YOU USED -- IS IT A PHENO
27 TEST? l
28 A. YES. THAT'S THE CHEMICAL TEST WE USE TO
l
l
r 1026
r 1 IDENTIFY POTENTIAL BLOODSTAINS.
r 2 Q. NOW, YOU VISUALLY SAW BLOODSTAINS IN THESE
r 3
4
AREAS.
A. CORRECT.
r 5
6
Q. AND THEN YOU DID THE PHENO TEST AND CONFIRMED
THAT IT WAS, IN FACT, BLOOD.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
THAT IT IS LIKELY BLOOD, YES.
BUT YOU DIDN'T PHENO TEST THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF
fil
[ 9 THE OUTER GLOVE.
r 11 Q. YOU JUST TESTED THE AREAS WHERE YOU SAW
r 12
13
BLOODSTAINING.
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND WHEN YOU SWABBED THE GLOVE, YOU SWABBED AN
AREA OF THE GLOVE THAT ON THE REVERSE -- YOU SWABBED THE
r 16
17
INSIDE OF THE GLOVE, THE REVERSE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE
GLOVE, YOU TRIED TO AVOID AREAS WHERE YOU SAW BLOOD.
r 18 A. CORRECT.
r 19
20
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT K, PHOTO OF RIGHT GLOVE
TAKEN 10/13/2008, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 21
22
Q. AND THE SAME THING FOR EXHIBIT K.
r 23
24
SHOWING YOU EXHIBIT K, WHAT'S ALSO UP ON THE
TELEVISION, THESE ARE AREAS WHERE YOU SAW BLOOD AS
r 25
26
WELL.
A. YES. ON ITEM 16.
r 27 Q. OKAY. YOU DIDN'T SEE BLOOD ON THE FINGERTIPS?
r 28 A. NO, I DID NOT SEE ANY BLOOD.
r
1027
l
l
1 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE BLOOD ANYWHERE EXCEPT WHERE IT'S
2 CIRCLED IN YELLOW. l
4 Q. AND, AGAIN, ON THIS PARTICULAR ITEM, JUST LIKE l
5 THE ONE WE SAW BEFORE ON ITEM 16, YOU DIDN'T MAP OUT
6 WHERE THE BLOODSTAINING WAS. YOU DIDN'T DO A PHENO TEST
l
7
8
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
A. NO.
l
9 Q. IT WAS BASICALLY JUST VISUAL AND YOU USED l
10 HIGH-INTENSITY LIGHT.
12 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE TAKE THE MID-MORNING
13 RECESS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AND TRY TO GET BACK ON OUR
l
14
15
SCHEDULE.
PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
l
l
18 EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS FINALLY l
20 WE'LL RECONVENE IN 15 MINUTES. THANK YOU SO l
21 MUCH. WE ARE IN RECESS.
l
23
24
l
25 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING AGAIN, ONE AND ALL. l
26 MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, BEFORE WE DO, MY l
28 CLIENT HAD INFORMED ME THAT HE THINKS ONE OF THE JURORS,
l
l
r 1028
r 1 ALTERNATE NO. 1, WAS RAISING HER HAND DURING MY
r 2
3
CROSS-EXAMINATION. I DIDN'T CATCH IT. I DON'T KNOW IF
WE WANT TO WAIT UNTIL THE END OR ASK HER IF SHE HAS A
r 4 QUESTION.
r 5
6
THE COURT: I DIDN'T CATCH IT.
WHEN THE JURY GETS BROUGHT IN.
I'LL ASK HER
THANK YOU FOR THAT.
r 7
8
r 9 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU.
r 10
11
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT.
PARTIES AND COUNSEL PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED ARE PRESENT.
ALL
r 12
13
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IT HAS COME TO MY
ATTENTION THAT A JUROR HAD A HAND RAISED THAT I DID NOT
r 14
15
SEE AT SOME POINT DURING THE EXAMINATION.
APOLOGIZE.
FOR THAT I
I'M TOLD IT WAS ONE OF THE ALTERNATE JURORS.
r 16
17
IS THERE SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT?
ALTERNATE JUROR: NO, ACTUALLY I HAD A QUESTION
r 18
19
EARLIER. AND IT WAS JUST WHEN HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE
TESTING 16-3 AND ITEM 17-3, I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY
r 20 THAT IT WAS TESTING ON SEPARATE AREAS ON THE INSIDE OF
21 THE GLOVE, BECAUSE I THOUGHT -- OR MAYBE I HEARD WRONG,
r 22 BUT I THOUGHT YOU WERE INSINUATING THAT HE WAS RETESTING
r 23
24
THE SAME AREAS OF 16 AND 17-2 AND 3, BUT --
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PERMIT ME TO INTERRUPT.
r 25 IF A JUROR CAN'T SEE OR NEEDS A CLARIFICATION AS TO WHAT

26 THE ITEM NUMBER WAS, AS WE HAD AN EARLIER EXAMPLE OF,
r 27 FEEL FREE TO ASK THAT.
28 WHEN IT COMES TO ASKING SPECIFIC QUESTIONS
r
r
1029
1
1 ABOUT WHAT THE TESTIMONY IS SOUGHT TO BE ELICITED, I
l
2 DON'T THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE TO ALLOW THAT DURING THE l
3 TRIAL. COUNSEL NOW KNOW ABOUT THIS QUESTION. COUNSEL
4 CAN ADDRESS IT. l
5 I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT SEEING YOUR HAND, BUT LET'S
6 CONFINE THESE KINDS OF QUESTIONS FROM THE JURORS TO
l
7
8
INSTANCES SUCH AS WAS THAT 16-2 YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
OR WAS THAT 16-3 YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT?
l
l
9
10
11
12
ALTERNATE JUROR:
REFERRING TO, SIR.
NO. THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS
FROM YESTERDAY, WHEN HE WAS ON THE
STAND YESTERDAY, MR. MONTPETIT SPOKE ABOUT 16-3 AND 17-3
AS BEING TESTED, DIFFERENT AREAS FOR THAT GLOVE, AND
,
13 WHEN HE HAD TO CUT IT OPEN AROUND THE SEAM, TAKE THE l
14
15
STITCHING OUT -- BUT I JUST WANTED IT TO BE CLARIFIED
THAT IT WAS A SEPARATE AREA THAT WAS BEING TESTED THAN
l
16
17
16-2 AND 17-2. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT I HEARD YESTERDAY.
THE COURT: WELL, THAT'S MY POINT. I DON'T
l
18 ALLOW JURORS TO GET INVOLVED IN THE QUESTIONING TO TRY l
19 TO CLARIFY MISUNDERSTANDINGS THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE.
20 THAT'S UP TO THE LAWYERS TO DO. l
21 I'M GLAD YOU'VE MENTIONED THIS. I'LL INVITE
22 BOTH COUNSEL TO CLARIFY THAT, IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO.
l
23
24
SOMETIMES JURORS FIND THEMSELVES IN THE RATHER
FRUSTRATING POSITION OF HAVING TO EVALUATE EVIDENCE
l
25 UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THEY SAY, "WOW, IF ONLY ONE OF l
26 THE LAWYERS HAD ASKED THIS QUESTION OR MADE THAT
27 CLARIFICATION." THAT'S JUST THE WAY THE SYSTEM IS. l
28 ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF THE DELIBERATIVE PROCESS
l
l
r 1030
r 1 IS THAT IT IS, IN MOST CASES, SOMETHING THAT CAN BE
r 2 RESOLVED BY TALKING WITH THE FELLOW JURORS DURING
r 3
4
DELIBERATION, AND OTHER JURORS MAY HAVE A SUFFICIENT
RECOLLECTION OF THAT TO EITHER ANSWER THAT QUESTION OR
r 5
6
TO SAY, "YOU'RE RIGHT, WE DON'T KNOW," IN WHICH CASE
THAT'S THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER.
r 7
8
I'LL INVITE EITHER COUNSEL TO ADDRESS THAT AS
YOU WISH IN THE FURTHER EXAMINATION OF THE WITNESS. AND
r 9 I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT SEEING YOUR HAND, MA'AM, WHEN YOU
r 10
11
RAISED IT.
ALTERNATE JUROR: IT'S OKAY, SIR. THANK YOU
r 12
13
VERY MUCH.
THE COURT: MY THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR THE
r 14
15
EVIDENT AND APPARENT ATTENTION THAT YOU ARE GIVING THIS
CASE. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR BOTH SIDES AND FOR THE
r 16
17
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE THAT YOU DO SO.
WE CONTINUE THEN WITH THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF
r 18 MR. MONTPETIT. AND, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY RESUME.
r 19
20
I'M ABOUT FIVE MINUTES AWAY FROM ADDRESSING THAT ISSUE,
AND
r 21
22
SO THANK YOU.
r 23
24
Q. OKAY. SO WHEN WE LEFT OFF, MR. MONTPETIT, WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT WHERE YOU SWABBED THE GLOVE, 16-2.
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
THERE WAS ONLY ONE SWAB OF 16-2.
r 27 A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT.
r 28 Q. AND 17-2, HOW YOU SWABBED THOSE.
r
1031
1
l
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. JUST TO CLARIFY, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT YET l
3 17-3 AND 16-3. ALL RIGHT?
4 A. FAIR ENOUGH. l
5 Q. 16-2, YOU SWABBED JUST THE PALM AREA.
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
AND IT WAS -- THAT WAS FOR BOTH GLOVES.
YES.
l
9 Q. SO LET'S MOVE TO IT. l
10 WHEN YOU DID THE NEW SWABBING JUST A COUPLE OF
11 MONTHS AGO IN 2011, YOU SWABBED BOTH GLOVES AGAIN. l
12 A. YES.
13 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT M, PHOTO OF RIGHT GLOVE l
14
15
TAKEN 1/24/11, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT N, PHOTO OF LEFT GLOVE
l
16 TAKEN 1/24/11, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l
18 Q. APPROACHING THE WITNESS WITH EXHIBITS DEFENSE M l
19 AND DEFENSE N.
20 SHOWING YOU FIRST 17-3 OR DEFENSE N, SHOWING l
21 YOU 17-3, THIS WAS THE LATEST SWABBING, RIGHT?
22 A. YES. THIS IS -- EXHIBIT N IS NOTES THAT I TOOK
l
23
24
CONCURRENT WITH MY ANALYSIS BACK IN JANUARY OF THIS
YEAR.
l
25 Q. OKAY. THIS IS THE SECOND -- THE FIRST SWABBING l
26 WAS IN 2008, SO THIS NEW SWABBING IS ALMOST OVER TWO
27 YEARS LATER. l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 1032
r 1 Q. OKAY. THIS TIME YOU DIDN'T JUST SWAB THE PALM.
r 2 A. CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q.
KNUCKLES
YOU SWABBED THE PALM; YOU SWABBED THE
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
-- YOU SWABBED THE FINGERS.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
SHOWING YOU DEFENSE M, ALSO ON THE TELEVISION,
r 9 THIS IS 16-3. THIS TIME YOU SWABBED, AGAIN, THE PALM,
r 10
11
THE KNUCKLES AND THE FINGERTIPS.
A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
OPEN.
AND THAT'S BECAUSE THIS TIME YOU CUT THE GLOVES
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
OKAY. THE FIRST TIME YOU SWABBED THESE GLOVES
r 16
17
FOR 16-2 AND 17-2, YOU HAD NO INPUT ON HOW TO DO IT FROM
ANY OTHER SOURCE BUT YOUR OWN SELF.
r 18
19
A. LIKE I SAID YESTERDAY, WHEN WE GET EVIDENCE, WE
TRY AND MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THE EVIDENCE. WE
r 20 DON'T TRY AND UNNECESSARILY ALTER THE EVIDENCE. SO IN
r 21
22
ORDER TO SWAB FOR POTENTIAL WEARER DNA THE FIRST TIME, I
TURNED THE GLOVES INSIDE OUT AS MUCH AS I COULD AND THEN
r 23
24
SWABBED THE INNER SURFACE FOR 16-2, AND THEN THE SAME
FOR 17-2.
r 25
26
Q. THEN LET ME GO BACK TO EXHIBIT P.
WHEN YOU CHANGED THE PROCEDURE FOR HOW YOU
r 27 SWABBED THE GLOVES THE SECOND TIME, YOU FOLLOWED THE
r 28 INSTRUCTIONS OF MR. TROCHA.
r
~1
1033
l
1 A. BASICALLY DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY TROCHA TOLD
2 ME AT THAT POINT THAT IF I NEEDED TO, I COULD ALTER THE 1
3 GLOVES, I COULD CUT THEM OPEN, IF THAT EASED MY
4 EXAMINATION OF THE GLOVES. SO I DID THAT. l
5 Q. BUT HE SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU TO SWAB THE
6 FINGERTIPS.
1
7
8
A. I'M NOT TOO SURE.
COMMUNICATION RECORD.
I'D HAVE TO GO BACK TO MY
l
9 Q. WELL, HOW ABOUT THIS COMMUNICATION RECORD, l
10 EXHIBIT P, MR. MONTPETIT?
11 A. YEAH, I BELIEVE THAT SAYS DNA OF ALL FINGERTIPS l
12 AND ANYWHERE ELSE, YES.
13 Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU WERE SWABBING THE GLOVES THE
l
14
15
FIRST TIME, COULDN'T YOU HAVE STUCK A LONG Q-TIP DOWN
ONE OF THE FINGERTIPS AND SWABBED IT?
l
16 A. YES, I COULD.
l
17 Q. AND YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT WITH THE KNUCKLES
18 THEN. l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHY DID YOU CHOOSE, THEN, JUST TO SWAB THE l
21 PALM?
22 A. BECAUSE IT'S A PRETTY LARGE SURFACE AREA, AND
l
23
24
IN THE PAST I'VE HAD SUCCESS IN GETTING DNA FROM JUST
THE PALM AREA.
l
25 Q. AND YOU DID GET DNA, RIGHT? l
26 A. YES, I DID.
27 Q. AND YOUR RESULTS, YOU FELT, WERE STRONG ENOUGH 1
28 TO COME TO CERTAIN FORENSIC CONCLUSIONS?
l
l
r 1034
[
1 A. YES. I THINK IT WAS EVIDENT AT THE TIME THAT
r 2 THERE WAS ADDITIONAL DNA TYPES THAT WERE BELOW THE
3 THRESHOLD, WHICH, BASED ON OUR CURRENT INTERPRETATION

r 4 GUIDELINES, WE CANNOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT TYPES THAT ARE
r 5
6
BELOW THE DETECTION THRESHOLD.
Q. SO THE ONLY REASON YOU CHANGED YOUR PROCEDURE
r 7
8
WAS BECAUSE YOU WERE TOLD TO DO SO BY THE PROSECUTOR,
RIGHT?
r 9
10
A. I WAS TOLD THAT I COULD CHANGE THE PROCEDURE
THAT I USED LAST TIME AND CUT OPEN THE GLOVES, AND SO I
r 11 DID.
r 12
13
Q. OKAY. SPEAKING ABOUT THE PROCEDURE YOU USED TO
SWAB THE GLOVES THE SECOND TIME, A COUPLE MONTHS AGO --
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
-- YOU'RE SWABBING AREAS OF THE GLOVE THAT ARE
r 16
17
INCHES APART FROM EACH OTHER, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, THE PALM MIGHT BE TWO OR THREE
19 INCHES AWAY FROM THE FINGERTIP?

r 20 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
r 21
22
Q. I THINK YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT THAT WHEN SKIN
CELLS OR SWEAT WOULD RUB OFF ON WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A
r 23
24
HABITUAL WEARER, FRICTION CAN PLAY A ROLE.
A. IT CAN, YES.
r 25 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF SOMEBODY IS NOT A HABITUAL
r
t
26
27
WEARER BUT THEY WEAR THE GLOVES AND GET IN A FIGHT, THE
FRICTION COULD CAUSE THEIR DNA TO RUB OFF IN JUST ONE
28 AREA OF THE GLOVE.

r
r
1035
l
l
1 A. IT'S POSSIBLE, YES.
2 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IF THEY'RE GRIPPING, A FIST, THERE l
3 IS FRICTION ON THE PALM THAT COULD CAUSE DNA TO RUB OFF
4 ON THE PALM. l
5 A. I WOULD IMAGINE IF THEY ARE MAKING A FIST,
6 THERE WOULD BE FRICTION IN THE FINGERS AS WELL, BUT
l
7
8
Q. WELL, ONE OF THE PITFALLS OF -- LET ME
ESTABLISH THIS FIRST.
l
9
10
WHEN YOU DID THE PCR THE SECOND TIME AROUND AND
YOU SWABBED ALL THESE AREAS, YOU PUT IT ON ONE SWAB,
1
11 RIGHT? l
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. AND YOU MADE IT ONE PCR TEST.
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE PITFALL THAT, FOR
l
16 EXAMPLE, SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE, BECAUSE OF FRICTION, l
17
18
DEPOSITED DNA ON THE PALM, BUT ANOTHER PERSON WHO WAS
WEARING THE GLOVES AT A DIFFERENT TIME, BECAUSE OF
,
J
19 FRICTION IN THE FINGERTIPS, DEPOSITED DNA IN THAT
20 AREA? l
21 A. I WASN'T NECESSARILY WORRIED ABOUT HAVING DNA
22 IN DIFFERENT PARTS. I WAS WORRIED ABOUT GETTING THE
l
23
24
MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF DNA THAT I COULD FOR THE TEST TO TRY
AND IDENTIFY AS MANY DNA TYPES AS WERE ON THE ITEM.
l
25 Q. BUT THAT IS POSSIBLE, IS IT NOT? l
26 A. IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THERE'S DNA IN ONE
27 PART OF THE GLOVE THAT ISN'T IN THE SECOND PART, AND ME
1 1
28 SWABBING IT WITH ONE SWAB PUT THAT ALL TOGETHER.

l
l
r 1036
r 1 Q. SO YOU COULD POTENTIALLY BE MIXING DIFFERENT
r 2
3
CONTRIBUTORS' DNA TOGETHER WHEN YOU SWAB IT IN THAT
FASHION.
r 4 A. I GUESS I WOULD BE MIXING TOGETHER ANYBODY WHO
r 5
6
HAD CONTACT WITH THE GLOVES BY SAMPLING IT IN THAT
MANNER.
r 7
8
Q. FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S TAKE PROSECUTION'S 152.
FOR EXAMPLE, ON 152 -- THIS IS A WHITE T-SHIRT,
r 9 CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
AND WE SEE HERE THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO
r 12
13
BLOODSTAINS ON THE T-SHIRT, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. YOU'D NEVER SWAB BOTH THESE BLOODSTAINS WITH
ONE SWAB AND THEN MIX THEM TOGETHER, RIGHT?
r 16 A. THOSE PARTICULAR ONES, NO.
17 Q. YOU WOULD DO TWO SEPARATE SWABS FOR THEM.
r 18 A. I WOULD, YES.
r 19
20
Q. AND THE REASON IS BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO
MIX PEOPLE'S DNA TOGETHER.
r 21
22
A. RIGHT.
THAT IS THE IDEA.

WELL, WITH DISTINCT STAINS LIKE THAT,
WE WANT TO KEEP THOSE STAINS
r 23
24
DISTINCT.
IF FOR SOME REASON THERE WAS A BLOODSTAIN
r 25 PATTERN THAT WAS PRESENT ON THE ITEM WHICH LED ME TO
r 26
27
BELIEVE THAT THE BLOODSHED EVENT THAT CAUSED THEM WAS A
SINGLE EVENT AND THE BLOODSTAINS WERE SMALL, I COULD
r 28 THEORETICALLY MIX THOSE BECAUSE I WOULD BE MORE
r
1037
l
l
1 CONVINCED THAT THE BLOODSTAIN EVENT WAS A SINGULAR EVENT
2 THAT CAUSED THOSE MULTIPLE BLOODSTAINS. l
3 WHEN I'M TAKING DNA FOR A POTENTIAL WEARER, I'M
4 TRYING TO GET AS MUCH DNA AS POSSIBLE TO TRY AND GET A l
5 FULL REPRESENTATION OF THE DNA THAT'S ON THE ITEM IN
6 THAT AREA.
l
7
8
Q. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT IS IF
YOU TOOK SWABS FROM MULTIPLE AREAS AND MIXED PEOPLE'S
l
l
9
10
11
12
DNA TOGETHER, THE RESULT WOULD BE A MORE COMPLEX SAMPLE,
RIGHT?
A. IF INDEED THERE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S DNA IN
DIFFERENT SPOTS ON THE GLOVE AND SWABBING THEM WITH ONE
,
13 SWAB WOULD MIX THEM TOGETHER AND CREATE A MORE COMPLEX l
14
15
RESULT, YES.
Q. WHEN YOU TESTIFIED IN A PRIOR HEARING, YOU
l
16
17
STATED THAT YOU DIDN'T CUT THE GLOVES OPEN THE FIRST
TIME BECAUSE OF DELETERIOUS EFFECTS, RIGHT?
l
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WHAT ARE THOSE?
20 A. BASICALLY IF I CUT THE GLOVES OPEN, THEY'RE NOT l
21 IN THEIR ORIGINAL STATE. AND SO I TRIED TO KEEP THEM IN
22 THEIR ORIGINAL STATE.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
THE FIRST TIME.
YES.
l
25 Q. BUT THE SECOND TIME YOU DID NOT. l
26 A. RIGHT. I BASICALLY HAD PERMISSION TO CUT THEM
27 OPEN AT THAT POINT. l
28 Q. ESSENTIALLY YOU DESTROYED THE EVIDENCE NOW.
l
l
[ 1038
r 1 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.

[ 2 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
LET ME REPHRASE.
YOU MAY.
r 6 Q. IF THE GLOVES WERE TO BE RETESTED NOW, IT WOULD
r 7
8
BE BECAUSE OF THE DELETERIOUS EFFECTS.
AS SCIENTIFICALLY
IT WOULDN'T BE
r 9 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. AND I
r 10
11
WOULD ASK TO TALK TO THE COURT AT SIDEBAR ABOUT THIS
LINE OF QUESTIONING.
12 THE COURT: WE'LL PUT THE SIDEBAR RULE IN
r 13 EFFECT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. I'LL SPEAK WITH COUNSEL
r 14
15
OFF THE RECORD.

17 WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY PROCEED.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
r 21
22
Q. GOING BACK TO EXHIBITS -- LET'S TAKE EXHIBIT L,
FOR EXAMPLE.
r 23
24 A.
DO YOU HAVE EXHIBIT L IN FRONT OF YOU?
YES, I DO.
r 25 Q. WHICH GLOVE IS THAT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
IT IS THE LEFT GLOVE, ITEM 17.
LET'S GO TO K, THEN, BECAUSE THAT'S THE RIGHT
GLOVE.
r 28
r
1039
l
l
1 A. EXHIBIT K IS ITEM 16, THE RIGHT GLOVE.
2 Q. I GUESS YOUR OPINION IS THAT THE REASON MOISES l
3 IS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR IS THAT THE BLOOD SOAKED
4 THROUGH THE GLOVE. l
5 A. IT'S DEFINITELY A POSSIBILITY, YES.
6 Q. SPEAKING OF BLOOD, WHERE IS DNA FOUND IN BLOOD?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
IT'S IN THE WHITE BLOOD CELLS.
IT'S NOT IN THE RED BLOOD CELLS?
l
9 A. NO. THE RED BLOOD CELLS ARE HIGHLY SPECIALIZED l
10 CELLS USED FOR OXYGEN TRANSPORT THROUGHOUT THE BODY.
11 Q. THERE IS ANOTHER SUBSTANCE IN BLOOD ALSO CALLED l
12 PLASMA, CORRECT?
13 A. PLASMA IS A COMPONENT OF BLOOD, YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT IS PLASMA?
I BELIEVE IT IS THE BLOOD WITH PLATELETS
l
16 REMOVED, BUT I'D HAVE TO DOUBLE-CHECK ON THAT. I'M NOT
l
17 100 PERCENT SURE.
18 Q. ISN'T PLASMA THE LIQUID PART OF BLOOD? l
19 A. AGAIN, I'D HAVE TO DOUBLE-CHECK THAT
20 INFORMATION. I CAN'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. l
21 Q. WHITE BLOOD CELLS ARE NOT A LIQUID, RIGHT?
22 A. NO. IT'S PART OF THE CELLULAR COMPONENT OF THE
l
23
24
BLOOD.
Q. IT'S A SOLID.
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. AND IN ORDER FOR A SOLID TO PASS THROUGH A
27 MEMBRANE, THE SOLID HAS TO BE SMALLER THAN THE HOLES IN l
28 THAT MEMBRANE.
l
l
r 1040
r 1 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
r 2 Q. SO IN ORDER FOR WHITE BLOOD CELLS TO PASS
r 3
4
THROUGH THE LEATHER GLOVE, IF YOU WERE TO KNOW WHETHER
THAT'S TRUE, YOU WOULD HAVE TO MEASURE WHAT'S CALLED THE
[ 5
6
POROSITY OF THAT GLOVE.
A. YOU'D HAVE TO CHECK PORE SIZES, THAT'S CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q.
GLOVES?
DID YOU EVER DO ANY POROSITY TESTING ON THESE
r 9 A. NO, I DID NOT.
r 10
11
Q.
TESTING.
LET'S MOVE ON TO SOME SPECIFIC AREAS ON PCR
AGAIN, IT'S CALLED -- FORGIVE ME -- POLYMERASE
r 12
13
CHAIN REACTION?
A. POLYMERASE. IT'S P-0-L-Y-M-E-R-A-S-E.
r 14
15
POLYMERASE.
Q. THE TWO STEPS OF DNA IDENTIFICATION -- OR TWO
r 16
17
OF THE STEPS, I WON'T SAY THE ONLY TWO -- BUT TWO OF THE
STEPS ARE FIRST THE PCR PROCESS AND THEN, SECOND, THE
[ 18 INTERPRETATION OF THE RESULTS.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES, THOSE ARE TWO PARTS OF THE ANALYSIS.
THOSE ARE DISTINCT PARTS OF THE ANALYSIS
r 21
22
BECAUSE ONCE YOU GET THE RESULTS, THOSE ARE -- THE
OPINION ON WHAT THOSE MEAN DIFFER BETWEEN SCIENTISTS.
r 23
24 A.
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?
YEAH, YOU KIND OF LOST ME.
r 25 Q. LET ME REPHRASE FOR YOU.
r
26 LET'S START WITH PCR. IT'S PRETTY
27 STRAIGHTFORWARD, RIGHT? YOU RUN IT THROUGH A MACHINE,
r 28 AND IF THE ALLELES -- THE PEAKS PASS A DETECTION
r
1041
l'
1 THRESHOLD, YOU REPORT IT.
l
2 A. WELL, PCR IS THE PROCESS OF COPYING THE DNA. l
3 THERE'S A SEPARATE PORTION WHERE WE ACTUALLY RUN THE
4 COPIED MATERIAL ON A GENETIC ANALYZER, AND THAT'S THE l

5
6
PART WHERE THE DNA THAT HAS BEEN PCR'D GETS DETECTED.
SO THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE PARTS.
1
7
8
Q. EVENTUALLY YOU GET THE PHOTOGRAPH, WHICH IS THE
ELECTROPHEROGRAM.
l
9
10
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THE PHOTOGRAPH OF THE PEAKS WILL -- SOME OF
l
11 THEM WILL BE ABOVE THE DETECTION THRESHOLD, AND THOSE l
12 PEAKS YOU REPORT.
13 A. CORRECT.
14
15
Q. AND LIKE WE SAW ON THOSE CHARTS, LIKE, FOR
EXAMPLE, THESE NUMBERS HERE ON WHAT PAGE IS THAT? IS

l
16 THAT PAGE 4 OF THE SLIDE SHOW?
l
17 A. YES, IT'S PAGE 4 OF THE SLIDES.
18 Q. ALL THOSE PEAKS ARE ABOVE THE DETECTION l
19 THRESHOLD.
21
22
Q. OKAY. NOW, THE INTERPRETATION PART OF IT IS
ONCE YOU HAVE THOSE PEAKS, YOU HAVE TO MAKE CERTAIN
l
23
24
CONCLUSIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY MEAN AS FAR AS IDENTIFYING
WHETHER OR NOT SOMEBODY'S A CONTRIBUTOR.
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. AND SCIENTISTS ON THAT ASPECT OF IT DISAGREE ON
l
27
28
WHAT THE INTERPRETATIONS ARE.
A. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT DIFFERENT ANALYSTS MAY OFFER ,
J
l
r 1042
r 1 DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE RESULTS.
r 2 Q. WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU RANK LOCI, RIGHT?

3 A. YES. AS PART OF OUR PROCESS FOR INTERPRETING
r 4 WHETHER SOMEBODY COULD BE A POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTOR,
r 5
6
YES, WE DO.
Q. SOME OF THEM ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHERS.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
SO DEPENDING ON WHERE -- WHICH LOCUS SOMEBODY
r 9
10
IS MISSING OR NOT MISSING FROM, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A
JUDGMENT CALL ON WHETHER THAT'S AN INCLUSION OR

r 11 EXCLUSION.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
AND ANOTHER SCIENTIST MIGHT DISAGREE WITH YOU
r 14
15
ON THAT.
A. THAT'S TRUE.
r 16 Q. SO TALKING ABOUT NOW JUST NOT THE
r
17 INTERPRETATION ASPECT BUT JUST THE PCR PROCESS, THERE'S
18 SOMETHING CALLED ALLELIC DROPOUT, RIGHT?
19 A. YES. ALLELIC DROPOUT IS A PHENOMENON THAT

r 20 SOMETIMES OCCURS.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
MR. MONTPETIT, WHAT IS ALLELIC DROPOUT?
ALLELIC DROPOUT IS ESSENTIALLY WHEN WE HAVE A
r 23
24
PAIR OF DNA TYPES THAT IS EXPECTED, BUT ONLY ONE OR NONE
SHOW UP.
r 25 SO, ESSENTIALLY, IF WE HAD A DNA PROFILE FROM A

26 SINGLE SOURCE PERSON AND THAT PERSON HAD TWO DNA TYPES
r 27 AT A PARTICULAR MARKER AND ONLY ONE SHOWED UP, THE OTHER
28 ONE BEING BELOW THE DETECTION THRESHOLD, THAT WOULD BE
r
r
1043
1
l
1 AN INSTANCE THAT WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED AS DROPOUT.
2 Q. AND BECAUSE IT'S BELOW THE DETECTION THRESHOLD, l
3 YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO REPORT IT UNDER YOUR STANDARD
4 OPERATING PROCEDURES.
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. WHAT IS ALLELIC DROP-IN?
l
7
8
A. ALLELIC DROP-IN IS A PHENOMENON THAT IS MORE
CHARACTERISTIC OF A TECHNIQUE THAT WE DON'T USE CALLED
l
9 LOW COPY NUMBER DNA TESTINGS WHERE YOU TAKE THE NUMBER l
10 OF PCR CYCLES AND INCREASE THEM, HOPING TO INCREASE THE
11 LEVEL OF YOUR RESULTS. l
12 ESSENTIALLY, IT IS A DNA PEAK THAT YOU DO NOT
13 EXPECT TO BE THERE, SHOWING UP. l
14
15
Q. ESSENTIALLY, IT'S A PEAK, BUT IT IS NOT
ACTUALLY AN ALLELE.
l
16 A. NO. A PEAK THAT WOULD NOT BE AN ALLELE I WOULD
l
17 TERM AN ARTIFACT. A DROP-IN WOULD BE ESSENTIALLY A
18 CONTAMINATION EVENT, FOR LACK OF A BETTER DESCRIPTION; l
19 SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, IN A SINGLE SOURCE SAMPLE, IF YOU
20 HAD A VERY, VERY LOW AMOUNT OF DNA AND YOU WERE l
21 EXPECTING A CERTAIN RESULT, AND YOU GOT THAT RESULT BUT
22 YOU ALSO HAD AN ADDITIONAL DNA PEAK THAT MAY HAVE COME
l
23
24
FROM SOME OTHER SOURCE, THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED
DROP-IN.
l
25 BUT, AGAIN, THAT IS A PHENOMENON THAT IS NOT l
26 TYPICAL FOR THE TYPE OF TESTING THAT WE PERFORM IN THE
27 LABORATORY. l
28 Q. YOU SAID SOMETHING THAT WAS INTERESTING.
l
l
r 1044
r 1 REMIND ME, DID YOU SAY PHANTOM PEAK? WHAT WAS IT?
r 2 A. ARTIFACT.
3 Q. ARTIFACT. WHAT IS THAT?
r 4 A. AN ARTIFACT IS A PEAK WITHIN THE RESULTS THAT
r 5
6
IS DEEMED NOT TO HAVE COME FROM DNA.
Q. AND TO GIVE A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON THAT, THERE
r 7
8
IS SOMETHING CALLED A BASELINE, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. WHAT'RE THE BASELINE?

10 A. THE BASELINE ESSENTIALLY EVERY TEST HAS
r 11 ONE IT IS THE SORT OF ZERO LINE FROM WHICH THINGS GET
r 12
13
DETECTED.
Q. THE BASELINE IS NOT ACTUALLY A LINE. THAT'S
r 14
15
KIND OF A MISNOMER, ISN'T IT?
A. IT COVERS A CERTAIN RANGE WITHIN THE TESTING
r 16 PHOTOGRAPH, I WOULD SAY.

17 Q. IT'S JAGGED LIKE AN EKG?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. AND BECAUSE OF RANDOM CHANCE, SOME PARTS OF THE
JAGGED LINE ARE HIGHER THAN OTHERS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND SO WHEN YOU'RE DOING PCR AND PUTTING THE
r 23
24
RESULTS ON AN ELECTROPHEROGRAM, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A
MECHANISM TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE DEVIATIONS FROM
r 25 THE BASELINE AND ACTUAL ALLELIC PEAKS.

26 A. YES. AND THAT'S WHY, AS I EXPLAINED YESTERDAY,
r 27 WE DO VALIDATION STUDIES TO DETERMINE WHAT OUR DETECTION
r 28 THRESHOLD WOULD BE.
r
1045
l
l
1 THAT'S WHEN WE KNOW A PEAK THAT RISES ABOVE
2 THAT IS MORE LIKELY DNA THAN NOT. l
3 Q. AND SO THE DETECTION THRESHOLD IN YOUR LAB IS
4 75 RFU'S? l
5
6
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
WHAT IS AN RFU?
l
7
8
A.
PEAKS.
THAT IS THE MEASURE OF THE INTENSITY OF THE DNA
RFU STANDS FOR RELATIVE FLUORESCENSE UNIT, AND
l
9 ESSENTIALLY THAT MEASURES THE INTENSITY OF THE DNA l
10 RESULT.
11 AND 75 RFU IS OUR DETECTION THRESHOLD. WE CAN l
12 HAVE PEAKS THAT RISE UP AS MANY 8,000 RFU, MAYBE 9,000
13 RFU FROM THE BASELINE. l
14
15
Q.
A.
HAVE YOU HEARD OF STUTTER PEAKS?
YES, I HAVE.
l
l
17 A. STUTTER IS A KNOWN ARTIFACT OF A PCR PROCESS.
18 WHEN WE HAVE A MAIN DNA PEAK, STUTTER IS ONE BOXCAR LESS l
19 THAN THE MAIN PEAK, AND IT IS AT A MUCH LOWER
20 PERCENTAGE; GENERALLY LESS THAN 12 OR SO PERCENT OF THE l
21 MAIN PEAK.
22 Q. WHAT ARE STOCHASTIC EFFECTS?
l
23
24
A. STOCHASTIC EFFECTS ARE EFFECTS THAT ARE SEEN
WITH LOW LEVELS OF DNA. DROPOUT WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED
l
25 AS A STOCHASTIC EFFECT. l
26 THE COURT: HOW DO WE SPELL THAT, PLEASE?
27 THE WITNESS: S-T-0-C-H-A-S-T-I-C. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOU'RE ASKING THE HARD
l
l
r 1046
r 1 QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
r 3
4
Q. ALSO WHEN YOU'RE DOING THE PCR WHEN YOU'RE
SWABBING THE GLOVES, YOU'RE ALWAYS WORRIED ABOUT
r 5
6
CONTAMINATION, AS WELL.
A. YES, THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE WORRIED
r 7
8
ABOUT.
Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU DO TAKE PRECAUTIONS TO
r 9
10
PROTECT AGAINST CONTAMINATION.
A. WE HAVE PRECAUTIONS THROUGHOUT THE TESTING
r 11 PROCESS THAT ARE MEANT TO LIMIT THE POSSIBILITY OF US
12 CONTAMINATING THE SAMPLES.
r 13 Q. DOES YOUR LAB KEEP A REFERENCE SAMPLE OF THE
r 14
15
FIELD INVESTIGATORS THAT WORK FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?
A. YES. WE HAVE A DATABASE OF STAFF MEMBERS THAT
r 16
17
HAS EVERY STAFF MEMBER WHO MIGHT COME IN CONTACT WITH
EVIDENCE. IT ALSO CONTAINS DNA PROFILES FROM THE PEOPLE
r 18 THAT WORKED IN THE PROPERTY UNIT, AS WELL AS THE VARIOUS
r 19
20
CRIMINALISTIC SECTIONS OF THE LABORATORY.
Q. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WITH EITHER 16-2,
r 21
22
EITHER ONE OF THE PCR'S, 16-3, 17-2 AND 17-3, DID YOU
EVER RUN OR MAKE AN ANALYSIS WITH THE FIELD
r 23
24
INVESTIGATORS THAT WORKED ON THIS CASE?
A. GIVEN THAT THE RESULTS IN THIS CASE DIDN'T
r 25 INDICATE THAT CONTAMINATION WAS LIKELY, I DIDN'T MAKE
r
26 ANY COMPARISONS DIRECTLY TO ANY OF THE FIELD
27 INVESTIGATORS.
r 28 Q. WHAT IS REPRODUCIBILITY?
r
1047
1
l
1 A. REPRODUCIBILITY IS, IN TERMS OF DNA TESTING,
2 THE ABILITY TO OBTAIN THE SAME RESULT MULTIPLE TIMES. l
3 Q. NOW, THAT TERM APPLIES TO A TEST DONE UNDER THE
4 SAME CONDITIONS, RIGHT? l
5 A. YES. ~
J
6 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, THE FACT THAT YOU RAN THE TEST
7 MULTIPLE TIMES IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE DOESN'T SHOW
l
8
9
REPRODUCIBILITY, DOES IT?
A. THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TESTS.
, j
10 Q. THEY WEREN'T RUN UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS.

11 A. NO, THEY WERE NOT. l
12 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE FIRST 16-2, YOU USED LESS
13 BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL THAN IN THE SECOND 16-2.
l
14
15
A.
Q.
AND IN 16-3, YOU DID A BRAND NEW SWAB.
l
l
17 Q. AND THE SAME THING BETWEEN 17-2 AND 17-3.
18 THOSE WERE TWO SEPARATE SWABS. l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. SO WHY WOULD SOMEBODY BE INTERESTED IN l
21 REPRODUCIBILITY?
22 A. REPRODUCIBILITY ESSENTIALLY IS ONE WAY TO
l
23
24
OBTAIN CONFIDENCE IN THE RESULTS.
Q. AND WITH THESE, EVEN THOUGH YOU TESTED THE
l
25 GLOVES MULTIPLE TIMES, YOU DIDN'T ESTABLISH ANY l
26 REPRODUCIBILITY ON ANY GIVEN TEST, DID YOU?
27 A. BECAUSE THEY WERE RUN UNDER DIFFERENT l
28 CONDITIONS AND THE FACT THAT WE'VE DONE NUMEROUS
l
l
r 1048
r 1 VALIDATION STUDIES, NO, I DID NOT DO ANY DIRECT
r 2 COMPARISONS FOR REPRODUCIBILITY.
r 3
4
Q. THANK YOU FOR THAT.
LET'S MOVE ON RIGHT NOW TO -- WE WERE JUST
r 5
6
TALKING ABOUT PCR.
INTERPRETATION.
LET'S TALK ABOUT NOW YOUR
OKAY?
r 7
8
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A SLIDE. WHAT I'M
SHOWING YOU, MR. MONTPETIT, IS SLIDE 15 OF EXHIBIT HH.
r 9
10
WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS 16-3, THE MOST RECENT
SWABBING AND PCR, INNER RIGHT GLOVE. THAT'S THE TOP

r 11 LINE, CORRECT?
r 13 Q. AND THEN THE BOTTOM LINE IS MOISES LOPEZ'S
r 14
15
REFERENCE SAMPLE -- EXCUSE ME -- IT'S MOISES LOPEZ'S
SWAB OF HIS KNUCKLE.
r 16 A. YES.
r 17
18
Q. THAT SWAB DOES MATCH HIS REFERENCE SAMPLE
EXACTLY, RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES,
OKAY.
IT DOES.
SEE THE LETTERS WK UNDER D8S1179? MOST
r 21
22
OF THESE ALLELES HAVE THE LETTERS WK?
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
IT MEANS THAT THEY ARE SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER IN
r 25 INTENSITY THAN THE ALLELES THAT ARE NOT DESIGNATED AS
26 WEAK.
r 27 Q. THEY ARE MINOR ALLELES.
r 28 A. YES. THEY ARE ALLELES THAT ARE LIKELY FROM
r
1049
, 1
l
1 MINOR CONTRIBUTORS IN THAT MIXTURE.
2 Q. THE 13 DOES NOT HAVE A WK ON THERE. l
3 A. CORRECT. r:=J
4 Q. WHY IS THAT? J
5 A. BECAUSE IT WAS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE INTENSE THAN

6 THE OTHER DNA TYPES AT THAT MARKER.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
BY THAT YOU MEAN THE PEAK WAS HIGHER?
YES.
l
9 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU WERE TO EXPRESS IT IN l
10 RFU'S, THE NUMBER OF RFU'S IS MUCH GREATER THAN FOR THE
11 OTHER ALLELES. l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU DID THE INTERPRETATION OF l
14
15
WHETHER MOISES LOPEZ WAS A MATCH TO 16-3, HE MATCHES ALL
OF THE MATCHES -- FIRST OF ALL, HE MATCHES AT EVERY
l
16 LOCUS, RIGHT?
l
17 A. HE IS INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR
18 TO THAT MIXTURE. l
19 Q. BUT HE ACTUALLY DOESN'T MATCH ANY OF THE MINOR
20 ALLELES, RIGHT? l
21 A. NO.
l
22
23
Q.
A.
HE MATCHES ALL OF THE MAJOR ALLELES.
YES, THUS MY CONCLUSION THAT HE'S A POSSIBLE
, J
24 MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT SAMPLE.
25 Q. AND THERE ARE A LOT LESS MAJOR ALLELES IN 16-3 l J
26 THAN MINOR ALLELES.

27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND THIS IS ACTUALLY A VERY IMPORTANT FACT, IS
l
l
r 1050
r 1 IT NOT, FOR YOUR INTERPRETATION?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. BECAUSE YOU CAN DISTINGUISH THE MAJOR ALLELES
FROM THE MINOR ALLELES.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IN FACT, THIS IS A PARTLY DISTINGUISHABLE
r 7
8
MIXTURE.
A. WE HAVE A PROCESS FOR DISTINGUISHING MAJOR DNA
r 9 TYPES FROM MINOR DNA TYPES IN OUR LABORATORY.
r
10 Q. WHAT IS A DISTINGUISHABLE MIXTURE? IT'S ALSO
11 CALLED A RESOLVABLE MIXTURE, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
USE, YES.
THAT IS A TERM THAT I'VE HEARD THAT SOME PEOPLE
r 14
15
Q.
THOSE TERMS?
YOU DON'T USE THAT TERM? DO YOU USE EITHER OF
r 16
17
A. WE USE I GUESS AN INDISTINGUISHABLE MIXTURE
WOULD BE ONE WHERE WE CANNOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN MAJOR
r 18 AND MINOR ALLELES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
THAT WOULD ALSO BE UNRESOLVABLE?
YES.
r 21
22
Q. BUT HERE YOU CAN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN MAJOR AND
MINOR ALLELES.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, WE CAN.
AND YOU'VE INDICATED THAT WITH A WK.
r 25 A. YES.
r 26 Q. AND SINCE MOISES LOPEZ MATCHES ALL THE MAJOR

27 ALLELES, YOU CAN SAY TO A MUCH HIGHER DEGREE OF
r 28 CERTAINTY THAT HE IS A POSSIBLE CONTRIBUTOR TO THIS MIX.
r
1051
, J
l
1 A. WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT MY CONCLUSION IS THAT HE
2 IS A POSSIBLE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR, AND THE CHANCES OF l
3 SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE POPULATION WOULD BE INCLUDED AS A
4 POSSIBLE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR ARE FAIRLY RARE. l
5 Q. THAT IS THE SAME FOR 17-3.
6 A. CORRECT.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
IT'S EXTREMELY RARE FOR MOISES LOPEZ, RIGHT?
WELL, EXTREMELY RARE FOR SOMEBODY OTHER THAN
l
9 MOISES LOPEZ TO MATCH JUST BY CHANCE. l
10 Q. BECAUSE YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY ONLY COUNTING THE
11 MAJOR ALLELES BECAUSE THEY'RE DISTINGUISHABLE. l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. THAT IS ONE OF THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 16-3 AND l
14
15
MR. DOMINGUEZ, CORRECT?
A. I'M NOT TOO SURE WHAT THAT QUESTION MEANS.
l
16 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, MR. DOMINGUEZ -- HE'S A MATCH, BUT
l
17 HE MATCHES A MIXTURE BETWEEN MAJOR ALLELES AND MINOR
18 ALLELES. l
19 A. YES. THERE ARE DEFINITELY PLACES WHERE HE
20 SHARES ALLELES WITH THE MAJOR PORTION OF THE MIXTURE. l
21 Q. WELL, FOR EXAMPLE ON D18, MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES
22 13, WHICH IS A MAJOR ALLELE, RIGHT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THAT'S D8.
EXCUSE ME. THANK YOU.
l
25 D8, HE MATCHES 13, WHICH IS A MAJOR ALLELE, l
26 RIGHT?
27 A. YES. l j
28 Q. AND HE ALSO MATCHES 12, BUT THAT'S A MINOR

l
l
r 1052
r 1 ALLELE.
r 2 A. YES.
r
3 Q. ON D7, SAME THING: 11, MAJOR ALLELE; 12, MINOR
4 ALLELE.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
15, MAJOR ALLELE; 16, MINOR ALLELE.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THIS FACT THAT HE'S MATCHING UP TO AN
r 9
10
INDISTINGUISHABLE MIXTURE IS EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT WHEN
CALCULATING YOUR PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION, RIGHT?
r 11 A. THE FACT THAT HE'S MATCHING TO AN
r 12
13
INDISTINGUISHABLE MIXTURE? I BELIEVE WE JUST WENT
THROUGH THE FACT THAT IT WAS A DISTINGUISHABLE MIXTURE.
r 14
15
Q. HIS MATCH -- LET ME BACK UP. LET ME TALK ABOUT
THIS IN MORE DETAIL, BECAUSE THIS IS DIFFICULT TO
r 16
17
UNDERSTAND AND COMPLEX.
THIS IS ONLY A PARTIALLY DISTINGUISHABLE
r 18 MIXTURE, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A. WELL, I CAN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN MAJOR ALLELES
AND MINOR ALLELES, YES.
r 21
22
Q. BUT THERE ARE -- SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THAT
FIRST LOCUS, D8, THERE'S A MAJOR ALLELE THAT YOU CAN
r 23
24
DISTINGUISH, WHICH IS 13.
A. CORRECT.
r 25
26
Q. BUT THE REST OF THE MIXTURE -- 10, 11, 12, 14
15 AND 16 -- THAT PART OF THE MIXTURE IS
r 27 INDISTINGUISHABLE.
r 28 A. WELL, THOSE ARE MINOR DNA ALLELES THAT ARE
r
1053
, J
l
1 DISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE MAJOR ONES.
2 Q. BUT COMPARED TO EACH OTHER, THEY ARE l 1
3 INDISTINGUISHABLE.
4 A. THEY WOULD ALL BE FROM MINOR CONTRIBUTORS. l
Q. WHAT I'M GETTING AT, MR. MONTPETIT, IS THAT
5
6 DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE TERM "PEAK RATIOS" MEANS?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS A PEAK RATIO?
l
9 A. IN A SINGLE SOURCE DNA SAMPLE, WHEN A PERSON l
10 HAS TWO DNA TYPES AT A PARTICULAR DNA MARKER, WE WOULD
11 EXPECT THEM TO FALL WITHIN A PARTICULAR PERCENTAGE OF l
12 EACH OTHER. WE CALL IT A PEAK HEIGHT RATIO; THE RATIO
13 OF ONE PEAK AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE OTHER. l
14
15
AND IN A SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILE, WE WOULD
EXPECT A CERTAIN PEAK HEIGHT RATIO TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
l
16
17
CONCLUDE THAT TWO PEAKS BELONGED TO THE SAME PERSON.
Q. SO SAYING THAT, WHAT YOU USE A PEAK RATIO TO DO
l
18 IS, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE A MIXTURE SAMPLE AND l
19 SOMEBODY IS MATCHING, BUT THE PEAK RATIOS CAN -- IF YOU
20 MEASURE THEM, THEY CAN INDICATE THAT PERHAPS THAT PERSON l
21 IS NOT A MATCH, RIGHT?
22 A. IN CERTAIN MIXTURES, YES, THAT IS TRUE.
l
23
24
Q. SO SOMETIMES YOU CAN COMPARE THE PEAK RATIOS
BETWEEN ALLELES AND FIGURE OUT, LIKE YOU DID HERE, THAT
l
25 SOME OF THEM ARE MAJOR ALLELES AND SOME OF THEM ARE l
26 MINOR ALLELES.
27 A. YES. BASICALLY, WHEN I SAY THAT SOMETHING IS A l
28 MAJOR ALLELE, THAT MEANS THAT A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO
l
l
r 1054
r
1 THAT MIXTURE HAS TO HAVE THAT ALLELE. BECAUSE IT'S A
r 2 MAJOR TYPE, IT DOESN'T PRECLUDE SOMEBODY BEING A MINOR
r 3
4
CONTRIBUTOR ALSO HAVING THAT TYPE. IT'S JUST BEING WHAT
WE WOULD TERM MASKED BY THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR.
r 5
6
SO THE FACT THAT THE 13 ALLELE IS CONSIDERED A
MAJOR DOESN'T PRECLUDE A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT
r 7
8
MIXTURE FROM HAVING THAT TYPE.
Q. WHAT I'M GETTING AT, MR. MONTPETIT, IS TAKE A
r 9 LOOK AT MOISES LOPEZ IN 17-3. IF HE MATCHES ALL THE

10 MAJOR ALLELES, AS OPPOSED TO MATCHING A MIXTURE BETWEEN
r 11 THE MAJOR AND MINOR ALLELES, WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO
12 INTERPRETING THAT, MOISES LOPEZ IS A MUCH, MUCH STRONGER
r 13 MATCH TO 17-3 THAN FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
r 14
15
A. THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD JUST BY CHANCE
ALONE MATCH THOSE DNA TYPES THAT I'VE DEEMED AS MAJOR
r 16 CONTRIBUTOR DNA TYPES IS MUCH LESS THAN THE NUMBER OF

17 PEOPLE WHO WOULD HAPPEN BY CHANCE ALONE TO MATCH SOME
r 18 PORTION OF THE MINOR DNA IN THAT MIXTURE.
r 19
20
Q. AND THE SAME THING FOR 16-3. MOISES LOPEZ
MATCHING ALL THE MAJOR ALLELES IS A MUCH HIGHER
r 21
22
PROBABILITY OF BEING A CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT GLOVE THAN,
FOR EXAMPLE, MR. DOMINGUEZ ON 16-3, WHERE HE MATCHES A
r 23
24
MIXTURE OF MAJOR ALLELES AND MINOR ALLELES.
A. WELL, THERE'S DEFINITELY MORE PEOPLE THAT WOULD
r 25 BE INCLUDED AS POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTORS BY CHANCE
r 26
27
ALONE THAN WOULD BE CONSIDERED MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS BY
CHANCE ALONE.
r 28 Q. ON THESE MINOR ALLELES IN BOTH 16-3 -- WELL,
r
, I
J
1055
l
1 LET'S JUST START WITH 16-3, SINCE WE'RE ON IT.
2 A. I'M SORRY. AS FAR AS I KNOW, WE'VE ONLY BEEN l
3 TALKING ABOUT 16-3. DID WE SWITCH UP AT SOME POINT TO
4 TALK ABOUT 17-3? l
5
6
Q.
AGO, YES.
I THINK WE WERE TALKING ABOUT 17-3 A MOMENT
l
7 A. WE WERE? I'M SORRY. I MISSED THAT. l j
8 Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S TALK RIGHT NOW ABOUT 16-3.

9 DID YOU EVER MEASURE THE PEAK RATIOS THAT l
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES UP WITH AND SEE IF THEY WERE
11 CONSISTENT? l
12 A. IN A MIXTURE SUCH AS THIS, PEAK RATIOS BECOMES
13 LESS OF AN INTERPRETATIONAL TOOL BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY
1
14
15
POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTORS.
PEAK HEIGHT RATIO IS A TOOL THAT YOU CAN USE TO
l
16 IDENTIFY PARTICULAR GENOTYPES OF PEOPLE, PARTICULAR DNA
l
17 PROFILES WITHIN A MIXTURE. THAT IS NOT THE TOOL THAT
18 I'M USING IN ORDER TO INTERPRET THIS MIXTURE. l
19 I'M NOT TRYING TO PULL OUT INDIVIDUAL DNA
20 PROFILES FROM THE PEOPLE THAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS l
21 MIXTURE, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A MIXTURE THAT LENDS ITSELF
22 TO THAT TYPE OF INTERPRETATION. MIXTURES SUCH AS
l
23
24
TWO-PERSON MIXTURES IN A SEXUAL ASSAULT TYPE OF
SCENARIO, THOSE ARE MIXTURES THAT REALLY LEND THEMSELVES
l
25 TO THAT TYPE OF INTERPRETATION. l
26 BUT THESE COMPLEX MIXTURES DON'T LEND
27 THEMSELVES TO PULLING OUT INDIVIDUAL DNA PROFILES, WHICH l
28 ARE COMPONENTS OF THAT MIXTURE. SO IN ORDER TO
l
l
r 1056
r 1 INTERPRET THIS, WE RELY ON A DIFFERENT MODEL FOR
r 2 INTERPRETING THESE MORE COMPLEX MIXTURES, AND PEAK
r 3
4
HEIGHT RATIOS DOESN'T PLAY THAT MUCH OF A PART IN THAT.
Q. FORGIVE ME IF I'M OVERSIMPLIFYING THIS, BUT
r 5
6
PEAK HEIGHT RATIOS IN SOME MIXTURES YOU CAN USE TO HELP
YOU OUT IN YOUR INTERPRETATION.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
IT CAN HELP YOU TO CONFIRM WHEN SOMEBODY IS A
r 9 CONTRIBUTOR?
10 A. IT CAN HELP TO NARROW DOWN THE POTENTIAL
r 11 COMBINATIONS OF DNA TYPES THAT COULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO
r 12
13
THE MIXTURE.
Q. BUT IT CAN ALSO HELP YOU CONFIRM THAT SOMEBODY
r 14
15
IS NOT A CONTRIBUTOR.
A. YES.
r 16 Q. BUT IN A SAMPLE SUCH AS 16-3, THEY -- YOU CAN'T
r
17 USE PEAK RATIOS TO DO ANY OF THAT BECAUSE IT IS JUST TOO
18 COMPLEX.
19 A. THIS TYPE OF MIXTURE DOESN'T LEND ITSELF TO
r 20 USING PEAK HEIGHT RATIOS AS A TOOL.
r 21
22
Q.
REASON WHY.
AND IT'S THE COMPLEXITY OF THE MIXTURE IS THE
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SHOWING YOU SLIDE WHAT WOULD BE SLIDE 20 OF HH,
r 25 LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW SIGNIFICANT MOISES LOPEZ IS AS A

MATCH TO THESE GLOVES, STARTING WITH 16-2, WHAT WOULD BE
r
26
27 THE FIRST ANALYSIS.
r 28 MOISES LOPEZ MATCHED EVERY SINGLE LOCUS IN THE
r
1057
1
1 FIRST PCR OF 16-2, CORRECT?
l
2 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I THINK WE'VE l
3 COVERED THIS THREE TIMES. WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING THROUGH THE FACT l
5 THAT HE MATCHED ALL FIVE TESTS.
6 THE COURT: YOU'VE ALREADY ASKED HIM ABOUT
l
7
8
THAT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'VE ASKED HIM ABOUT ALL
l
9 FIVE? l
10 THE COURT: WELL, YOU'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED
11 TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT THE STRONGEST IS MOISES LOPEZ, l
12 AND YOU DON'T GET TO ASK IT 18 DIFFERENT WAYS. SO DON'T
13 COVER ANYTHING YOU'VE ALREADY COVERED BEFORE. l
14
15 YOUR HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I BELIEVE THIS IS DIFFERENT,
IF I COULD HAVE SOME LEEWAY ON THIS, I
l
16 BELIEVE THIS IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC THAT I HAVEN'T COVERED
l
17 YET.
18 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PROCEED. l
21
22 TESTS.
Q. MR. MONTPETIT, LET'S TALK ABOUT ALL FIVE OF THE
MOISES LOPEZ MATCHED THE MAJOR ALLELES ON THE
1
23
24
FIRST TEST, RIGHT?
A. YES, HE DID.
l
25 Q. 16-2, THE FIRST PCR. l
26 HE MATCHED THE 16-2, THE SECOND PCR.
27 A. YES. AND ON ALL TESTS THAT I PERFORMED, MOISES l
28 LOPEZ WAS INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR ON
1
1
r 1058
r 1 ALL THE TESTS.
r 2 Q. AND WE'LL JUST BRING IT UP -- I'LL BE QUICK
r 3
4
WITH THIS, YOUR HONOR -- WE'LL BRING UP ALL FIVE TESTS
THAT WERE DONE. AND, AGAIN, THIS CHART, WHICH WOULD BE
r 5
6
PAGE 24 OF THE EXHIBIT, SHOWS THAT EVERY TIME THE GLOVE
WAS EITHER RE-SWABBED OR RE-PCR'D, MOISES MATCHED ALL
r 7
8
MAJOR ALLELES.
A. YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
r 9
10
Q.
IS 16-3.
NOW LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT MR. DOMINGUEZ.
AGAIN, WE WENT OVER THIS. HE'S A MIXTURE
THIS
r 11 BETWEEN THE MAJOR AND MINOR ON 16-3, RIGHT?
r 12
13
NOW LETS GO TO --
THE COURT: WELL, LET'S GET AN ANSWER TO THAT
r 14
15
LAST QUESTION.
DID YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION? THE QUESTION, I
r 16
17
THINK, SAID, "HE'S A MIXTURE OF MAJOR AND MINOR ON
16-3," REFERRING TO MR. DOMINGUEZ; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
r 18 THE WITNESS: HE'S INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE MINOR
r 19
20
CONTRIBUTOR, AND THAT INCLUSION HAS DEFINITE OVERLAP
WITH SOME OF THE MAJOR DNA TYPES.
r 21
22 AS WELL.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THAT
r 23
24
Q. THIS IS 16-2 -- SHOWING YOU 16-2, THE SECOND
r 25
26
ANALYSIS, AND MR. DOMINGUEZ'S PROFILE, PAGE 26 OF THE
SLIDE SHOW, HE IS ACTUALLY MISSING FROM D18 AND FGA,
r 27 RIGHT?
r
r
,
1059
, J
J
1 Q. HE IS NOT THE -- IT'S THE 25 AND THE 26
2 RESPECTIVELY, RIGHT? l
3 A. YES. AT THE D18 MARKER, THERE'S A 25 ALLELE
4 THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ POSSESSES THAT IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE l
MIXTURE.
5
6 Q. AND THE FIRST TEST, THE FIRST PCR OF 16-2, BUT

l
7
8
DONE IN 2008, HE'S MISSING --AT D7 HE'S MISSING AN 11,
RIGHT?
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. VWA, HE'S MISSING A 19.
11 A. CORRECT. l
12 Q. AT D18 HE'S MISSING A 14 AND A 25.
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
AND FGA, HE'S MISSING A 25 AND A 26.
CORRECT.
l
16 Q. WITH THIS PARTICULAR PCR, HE WOULD BE NOT
l
17 INCLUDED, RIGHT?
18 A. I EXCLUDED MR. DOMINGUEZ FROM THIS SAMPLE, YES. l
19 Q. AND THIS IS THE SAME GLOVE THAT WAS THIS 16-2
20 THE SECOND TIME, RIGHT? l
21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN IN
l
23 ~
MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, IF WE COULD HAVE A
J
24 CLARIFICATION AS TO WHICH OF THOSE PCR'S HE WAS EXCLUDED
25 FROM, SINCE THERE WERE TWO UP THERE. l
26 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 'j
27 Q. HE WAS EXCLUDED FROM THE FIRST PCR OF 16-2 -- l
28 A. YES, THAT IS CORRECT.
l
l
r 1060
r 1 Q. -- BACK IN 2008?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. GOING TO 17-3, MR. DOMINGUEZ -- HE'S MISSING AT
D2S1338, HE'S MISSING A 25, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AND AT D18 HE'S MISSING A 25 AS WELL.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THEN, FINALLY, THE FIRST PCR -- THE FIRST
r 9 SWABBING AND PCR OF 17-2 ONLY, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS MISSING
r
10 AT D8 A 12, RIGHT?
11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q. ALL THE ONES ON THE SLIDE SHOW MARKED WITH A
RED, RIGHT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
HE'S MISSING A 29.2.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
AN 11 AND A 12.
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
A 25 ON D2S1338.
THAT'S CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
ON D19 HE'S MISSING A 15.
THAT IS CORRECT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
VWA HE'S MISSING A 19.
YES.
r 25 Q. ON 018 HE'S MISSING BOTH THE 14 AND THE 25.
r
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. AND ON FGA HE'S MISSING BOTH THE 25 AND THE 26.
r 28 A. CORRECT, FOR THE FIRST ANALYSIS OF 17 -- OR FOR
r
1061
l
l
1 THE ANALYSIS OF 17-2.
2 Q. OKAY. SLIDE NO. 30, MR. MONTPETIT, WHAT DOES l
3 THIS DEPICT?
4 A. IT HAS ITEM 16-3. BELOW THAT IT HAS THE DNA l
5 PROFILE FROM MOISES LOPEZ'S RIGHT KNUCKLES, AND THEN
6 BELOW THAT THE REFERENCE SAMPLE FROM FLORENCIO
l
7
8
DOMINGUEZ.
Q. DO YOU SEE BELOW THAT SOME NOTES? IT APPEARS
l
9 TO BE DIFFERENT COLORS OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S PROFILE, l
10 RIGHT?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. THOSE COLORS THAT ARE BLUE, DO YOU KNOW WHAT
13 THOSE ARE SIGNIFICANT OF? l
14
15
A. THOSE WOULD BE DNA TYPES THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ
SHARES WITH MAJOR ALLELES IN THE DNA PROFILE.
l
16 Q. IT'S ALSO THE ONES THAT HE SHARES WITH MOISES
l
17 LOPEZ, RIGHT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, MOISES LOPEZ AND MR. DOMINGUEZ
20 SHARE A 13 AT D8, A 29.2 AT D21, AND AN 11 AND A 12 AT l
21 CSF1PO. THEY SHARE A 15 AT D3S, THEY SHARE A 6 AT TH01,
22 AND A 12 AT D16, A 17 AT VWA, AN 8 AT TPOX, AND AN 11 AT
l
23
24
D5S818?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
l
25 Q. SINCE MOISES LOPEZ IS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR OF l
26 16-3, THE MATCHES THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS TO 16-3 COULD
27 BE BECAUSE HE HAS A SIMILAR DNA PROFILE TO MOISES LOPEZ,
l J
28 CORRECT?
l
l
i
t
1062
r 1 A. I THINK, AS I EXPLAINED BEFORE, THE FACT THAT A
r 2 DNA TYPE IS DESIGNATED AS A MAJOR ALLELE DOES NOT
r 3
4
PRECLUDE A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR FROM HAVING THAT ALLELE.
SO I'M NOT 100 PERCENT SURE WHAT YOUR QUESTION WAS.
r 5
6
Q. WHEN YOU CALCULATE YOUR PROBABILITY OF
INCLUSION, YOU DON'T TAKE THE SHARING OF ALLELES BETWEEN
r 7
8
THE MAJOR AND MINOR CONTRIBUTOR -- THAT DOESN'T COME
INTO ACCOUNT, RIGHT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
NO, IT DOES NOT.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A SLIDE, WHAT WOULD BE
r 11 SLIDE 31, AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU -- WE ALREADY TALKED
r 12
13
ABOUT DETECTION THRESHOLD, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER CONCEPT
CALLED MATCH INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
IF YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE MIT --
YES.
r 16
17
A.
THRESHOLD.
THAT'S ACTUALLY A MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
r 18 Q. MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, WHAT IS
r 19
20
THAT?
A. IT MEANS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THINGS IN DIFFERENT
r 21
22
LABORATORIES. IN OUR LABORATORY, IT'S THE LEVEL BELOW
WHICH WE MIGHT EXPECT POTENTIAL DROPOUT EFFECTS OR
r 23
24
STOCHASTIC EFFECTS TO OCCUR.
Q. WHAT'S THE RANGE OF MIT IN RFU'S?
r 25 A. IT WOULD BE 200 RFU.
r 26
27
Q. SO BETWEEN 75 AND 200 PEAKS WOULD BE IN WHAT'S
CALLED THE STOCHASTIC RANGE?
r
r
1063
1
l
1 Q. WHY DO YOU NEED A MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
2 THRESHOLD? WHAT DOES IT DO FOR THE INTERPRETATION? l
3 A. ANY ALLELE THAT FALLS BELOW THE MIXTURE
1
4
5
6
INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD COULD BE POTENTIALLY PAIRED
WITH AN ALLELE THAT IS NOT REPRESENTED IN THE MIXTURE.
AND IT'S A THRESHOLD THAT WE USE IN ORDER TO KNOW
,
.l
8
WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE CONFIDENCE OR NOT THAT ALL DNA
TYPES ARE POTENTIALLY REPRESENTED IN THE MIXTURE.
l
9 Q. IN OTHER WORDS, LET ME MOVE TO WHAT WOULD BE l
10 SLIDE 35.
11 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS CHART? l
12 A. YES, I BELIEVE I'VE SEEN THAT BEFORE.
13 Q. THE PAT IS THE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
THAT WOULD BE THE DETECTION THRESHOLD.
THE DETECTION THRESHOLD?
l
16 A. YES. PAT MEANS "PEAK AMPLITUDE THRESHOLD," AND
l
17 IT IS ANALOGOUS OR THE SAME AS OUR DETECTION THRESHOLD.
18 Q. EACH LAB HAS A DIFFERENT DETECTION THRESHOLD, l
19 RIGHT?
20 A. RIGHT, WHICH IS ARRIVED AT THROUGH A SCIENTIFIC 1
21 PROCESS AS PART OF THEIR VALIDATION OF THE PARTICULAR
22 DNA TESTING KITS THAT THEY USE.
l
23
24
Q. NOW THE PURPOSE OF THE MIT IS BECAUSE YOU WANT
TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL THE ALLELES HAVE BEEN PRODUCED.
l
25 A. YOU WANT TO HAVE AN INDICATION IF THERE'S l
26 POTENTIAL FOR ALLELES TO BE MISSING FROM THE MIXTURE.
27 Q. IF THERE ARE ALLELES IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, l
28 WHICH WOULD BE BETWEEN THE PAT AND THE MIT -- FOR
l
l
r 1064
r 1 EXAMPLE, ON THE CHART BEHIND YOU, WHAT'S DEPICTED BY
r 2 NO. 14, THAT ALLELE -- AN ALLELE BEING IN THAT RANGE
r 3
4
WOULD INDICATE TO THE PERSON INTERPRETING THAT LOCUS
THAT THERE MAY BE ALLELES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN PRODUCED.
5 A. POTENTIALLY, YES. IT DEPENDS. IN THIS CASE,
r 6 THIS IS A PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD MIXTURE. IT LOOKS LIKE
r 7
8
THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE IN THIS MIXTURE.
IF THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE IN THIS MIXTURE, I
r 9
10
WOULD EXPECT, AT MOST, TWO DNA TYPES FROM EACH OF THEM.
I'VE GOT FOUR DNA TYPES REPRESENTED.
r 11 EVEN THOUGH THERE'S ONE IN THAT STOCHASTIC
r 12
13
RANGE BETWEEN THE PAT AND THE MIT, I'M QUITE CONFIDENT,
IF THIS IS A TWO-PERSON MIXTURE, THAT ALL DNA TYPES ARE
r 14
15
REPRESENTED.
IF OTHER MARKERS IN THIS DNA MIXTURE WERE TO
r 16
17
SUGGEST THAT THERE WAS POTENTIALLY MORE DNA CONTRIBUTORS
THAN TWO, THEN AT THAT POINT THE DNA TYPE 14 COULD
r 18 POTENTIALLY BE PAIRED WITH AN ALLELE THAT IS NOT

19 REPRESENTED IN THE MIXTURE.
r 20 Q. NOW, WHEN THERE ARE ALLELES IN THE STOCHASTIC
r 21
22
RANGE, WHAT DOES THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE SAY -- FOR
EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO SEE IF SOMEBODY MATCHES A
r 23
24
PARTICULAR MIXTURE SAMPLE, IF THEY MATCH AT A LOCUS
WHERE ONE OF THE MATCHES IS IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE,
r 25 LIKE 14, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DEAL WITH THAT IN
r 26
27
INTERPRETING?
A.
Q.
THERE'S A COUPLE DIFFERENT WAYS TO DO IT.
HOW DO YOU DO IT?
28
r
r
1065
l
A. WE WOULD USE THE RANKING SYSTEM, LIKE I'VE
l
1
2 MENTIONED BEFORE, AND ANY TIME WE WOULD LOOK AT A DNA l

3 PROFILE, ASSESS WHETHER THEY COULD POTENTIALLY BE
4 CONTRIBUTORS TO THE MIXTURE, AND THEN AT WHAT LEVEL: l
5 MAJOR, MINOR.
6 IF THEY ARE POTENTIALLY MINOR CONTRIBUTORS, WE
l
7
8
LOOK ACROSS THE DNA PROFILE. IF THERE IS ANY DNA TYPES
MISSING, THEN WE WOULD THEN ASSESS WHETHER THAT IS
l
9 SCIENTIFICALLY JUSTIFIABLE BASED ON THE INTENSITY OF THE l
10 RESULTS AT THAT PARTICULAR MARKER.
11 AND THEN IF WE HAVE AN ALLELE MISSING, WE WOULD 1
12 NOT USE ANY DNA MARKERS THAT WERE LESS INTENSE THAN
13 WHERE THEY WERE MISSING. AND THAT'S THE WAY WE DEAL l
14
15
WITH POTENTIAL DNA DROPOUT OR DNA TYPES THAT HAVE
POTENTIALLY NOT BEEN DETECTED IN THE MIXTURE.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
SO HAVE YOU READ THE WORK OF BUDOWLE?
YES.
l
18 Q. WHO IS BUDOWLE? l
19 A. HE IS A -- I GUESS HE IS A FORENSIC SCIENTIST
20 WHO WORKS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS. l
21 THE COURT: HOW DO WE SPELL IT, PLEASE?
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: B-U-D-0-W-L-E.
l
23
24
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
l
25 Q. HE'S A DNA SCIENTIST? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. HE HAS WRITTEN WORK ON DNA INTERPRETATION FOR l
28 MIXTURE SAMPLES?
l
l
r 1066
r
r
1 A. AMONG MANY OTHER TOPICS, YES.
2 Q. IS HE RESPECTED IN THE FIELD?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES, HE IS.
HOW ABOUT BY YOU?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IN HIS ARTICLE THAT I SUBMITTED -- I SUBMITTED
r 7
8
ONE OF HIS ARTICLES TO YOU, CORRECT?
A. QUITE POSSIBLY.
r 9 Q. DID YOU READ THAT PARTICULAR ONE?
r 10
11
A. IF YOU CAN REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION ON WHICH ONE
IT IS, I CAN TELL YOU WHETHER I READ IT OR NOT.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
IT'S CALLED MIXTURE INTERPRETATION GUIDELINES.
AND IS THAT FROM --
r 14
15
THE COURT:
PUBLISHED WHERE AND WHEN?
r 16
17
Q. MIXTURE INTERPRETATION, DEFINING THE RELEVANT
FEATURES FOR GUIDELINES FOR THE ASSESSMENT OF MIXED DNA
r 18 PROFILES FORENSIC CASEWORK, JOURNAL OF FORENSIC SCIENCE,
r 19
20
JULY 2009.
A. YES, I HAVE READ THAT.
r 21
22
Q. HOW DOES HE SAY TO DEAL WITH PROBLEMS WITH MIT
IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY.
WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO TAKE A
r 25 LOOK AT IT?
r 26
27
A. IT DEFINITELY WOULD.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING THE WITNESS,
28 YOUR HONOR.
r
r
1067
l
l
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST THIS HIGHLIGHTED l
3 PORTION HERE, IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND READING THAT JUST
4 SILENTLY TO YOURSELF. LOOK UP WHEN YOU'RE DONE. l
5
6 Q. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DOES HE SAY TO DO?
l
9 A. HE SAYS THAT FOR AN INDISTINGUISHABLE MIXTURE, l
10 IF YOU HAVE PEAKS THAT ARE BELOW THE MIXTURE
11 INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, THAT HE WOULD NOT USE THEM IN l
12 HIS STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
13 Q. AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE FEAR THAT NOT ALL THE
l
14
15
ALLELES WOULD BE PRODUCED.
A. YES.
l
16 Q. NOW, NOT HAVING ALL THE ALLELES PRODUCED IS
l
17 SIGNIFICANT, BECAUSE THAT COULD CHANGE THE PROBABILITY
18 OF INCLUSION, RIGHT? l
20 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU CALCULATE THE PROBABILITY l
21 OF INCLUSION, YOU'RE USING A FORMULA.
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. AND THE NUMBER OF ALLELES AT A GIVEN LOCUS IS
ONE OF THE VARIABLES IN THAT FORMULA.
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. SO IF ONE OF THE VARIABLES CHANGES, THE RESULT
27 WOULD CHANGE. l
28 A. ABSOLUTELY.
l
l
r 1068
r 1 Q. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

r 2 A. I GUESS THE SHORT ANSWER WOULD BE YES.
r 3
4
Q. DO YOU DO THAT WHEN YOU DO MIXTURE
INTERPRETATION?
r 5
6
A. WE HAVE A DIFFERENT METHOD OF DEALING WITH
POTENTIAL STOCHASTIC EFFECTS. WHEN WE DO A CALCULATION
r 7
8
FOR AN INCLUSION, WHAT WE ARE DOING IN THESE COMPLEX
MIXTURES IS WE ARE ONLY CONSIDERING POTENTIAL GENOTYPES
r 9 WHICH WOULD BE WHICH WOULD HAVE A HIGHER PROBABILITY
r
10 OF BEING INCLUDED IN THAT MIXTURE.
11 WHAT I'M SAYING IS ESSENTIALLY ANYTHING BELOW
r 12
13
OUR 200 RFU STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD, WE ARE NOT CONSIDERING
GENOTYPES THAT ARE BELOW THAT. IF THE GENOTYPE IN
r 14
15
QUESTION HAS AN ALLELE ABOVE THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD,
THAT'S AN INDICATION TO US THAT IT IS VERY LIKELY THAT
r 16
17
THE -- ANY PAIRED ALLELE WITH IT WOULD BE REPRESENTED
ABOVE OUR DETECTION THRESHOLD.
r 18 THAT'S BASED ON THE DEFINITION OF WHAT THAT
19 STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD OR MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD
r 20 IS, AND SO STATISTICALLY WE DON'T CONSIDER GENOTYPES OR
r 21
22
COMBINATIONS OF DNA TYPES THAT ARE BOTH UNDERNEATH THE
STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD.
r 23
24
Q. BUT YOU DO USE LOCI WHICH CONTAIN ALLELES THAT
ARE IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE -- YOU DO USE THOSE WHEN
r 25 CALCULATING YOUR PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION.
r 26
27
A. WE DO USE ALLELES THAT ARE PRESENT BELOW THE
STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD. BUT, LIKE I SAID, IN THE
r 28 CALCULATION THAT WE DO, WE ONLY USE THEM IN COMBINATION
r
1069
l
l
1 WITH ALLELES THAT ARE ABOVE THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD AS
2 WELL, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT ALLELES ABOVE THE STOCHASTIC 1 j
3 THRESHOLD WOULD HAVE -- MORE THAN LIKELY, HAVE A PAIRED

4 DNA TYPE DETECTED. l
5
6
Q.
MATCHING
IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS, WHERE SOMEBODY IS
FOR EXAMPLE, JUST 16-3, SOMEBODY IS MATCHING
l
7
8
AT EVERY LOCUS IN A COMPLEX MIXTURE SAMPLE, IF THERE IS
A PARTICULAR LOCUS WHERE NOT ALL THE ALLELES HAVE BEEN
l
9 PRODUCED, THEN KNOWING WHAT THAT IF YOU USED THE ONES l
10 THAT WERE POTENTIALLY MISSING, THAT WOULD LOWER THE
11 RARITY. l
12 A. I'M SORRY. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REPHRASE
13 THAT. l
14
15
Q. I WILL. AND THIS WILL BE MY LAST QUESTION, IF
THAT'S ALL RIGHT, BECAUSE I'M GOING TO MOVE ON TO A NEW
l
16 TOPIC.
l
17 FOR EXAMPLE, MIT IS PROTECTING AGAINST HAVING
18 NOT PRODUCED ALL THE ALLELES AT A GIVEN LOCUS, RIGHT? l
19 A. YES.
~
20 Q. IF THERE ARE ALLELES MISSING FROM A LOCUS THAT J
21
22
DON'T GET PUT INTO THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION, THAT
MAKES THE STATISTIC MORE RARE, RIGHT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THAT WOULD MEAN THE PROBABILITY THAT
l
25 SOMEBODY IS INCLUDED WOULD BE GREATER. l
26 A. IF THEY WERE LEFT OUT?
27 Q. IT WOULD MAKE THE INCLUSION MORE THAN l
28 SIGNIFICANT.
l
l
r 1070
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED
r 3
4
TO COUNT IT, BECAUSE IT'S CONSIDERED TO BE UNFAIR,
RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THAT IS ONE INTERPRETATION, YES.
IN AT LEAST THE LAB YOU WORK AT, YOU YOURSELF,
r 7
8
YOU DON'T DO WHAT BUDOWLE IS SUGGESTING.
A. WE, I GUESS, DO AN ALTERNATE FORM OF IT. WE
r 9
10
ONLY CONSIDER GENOTYPES THAT HAVE AT LEAST ONE ALLELE
ABOVE THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD, AND SO WE WOULD NOT USE
r 11 A -- IF SOMEBODY WERE REPRESENTED BY ALLELES THAT WERE
r 12
13
BELOW THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD, WE WOULD NOT BE USING
THAT LOCUS FOR THE CALCULATION.
r 14
15
SO, IN A SENSE, WE, FOR THOSE PEOPLE, ARE NOT
USING THOSE DNA TYPES, MUCH LIKE BUDOWLE WOULD NOT USE
r 16
17
THEM. IN A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE AN ALLELE ABOVE THE
STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD, WHICH GIVES US MORE CONFIDENCE
r 18 THAT A PAIRED ALLELE WOULD BE DETECTED, WE ARE USING
r 19
20
THAT COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES.
Q. IN 16-3, AT LOCUS D2S1338 AND D18S51, ONE OF
r 21
22
THE ALLELES
THE COURT: WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT, PLEASE?
r 23
24
WHAT SLIDE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT SLIDES.
r 25 I'M JUST ASKING A QUESTION.

26 THOSE TWO LOCUS -- I CAN BRING UP A SLIDE IF IT
r 27 WOULD ASSIST.
r 28 THE WITNESS: IT WOULD ASSIST ME.
r
1071
l
l
2 Q. LET'S JUST USE THIS ONE, I THINK IT'S 30. IT l
3 CONTAINS MR. DOMINGUEZ'S DNA PROFILE AND THE MIXTURE,
4 D2S1338 AND D18S51. MR. DOMINGUEZ IS MATCHING UP AT A l
LOCUS IN THE MIXTURE SAMPLE THAT IS IN THE STOCHASTIC
5
6 RANGE ON BOTH OF THOSE, IS HE NOT?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK MY NOTES.
AND ON
l
9 A. DO YOU WANT ME TO DO THAT? l
10 THE COURT: AFTER LUNCH.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YEAH. LET'S TAKE A BREAK. l
12 THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. WE'LL TAKE A BREAK.
13 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR
l
14
15
YOUR CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.
PLEASE LEAVE
PLEASE REMEMBER
l
16 THE ADMONITION. LET'S PLAN ON RECONVENING AT 1:30. l
18 {THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN l
20 THE COURT: ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM. l
21 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.
22 COUNSEL, WE HAVE AN AREA OF CONFUSION THAT MAY
l
23
24
BE MINISTERIAL ERROR ON THE PART OF THE COURT WITH
RESPECT TO A BENCH WARRANT THAT WAS ISSUED FOR A
l
25 WITNESS; THAT IS, A WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT. l
26 IS THERE A WITNESS, JULIO PUENTE, THAT SOMEBODY
27 WANTED A WARRANT FOR? l
28 MR. TROCHA: I WAS TALKING WITH DAWN ABOUT THIS
l
l
r 1072
r 1 AT THE BREAK. THERE IS A JULIO RAMIREZ, AND HIS FATHER

r 2 IS MELITON PUENTE. FROM LOOKING AT THE PAPERWORK, JULIO
3 RAMIREZ'S DESCRIPTION PAPERWORK WAS ATTACHED TO THE
[ 4 WARRANT, BUT THERE IS NO JULIO PUENTE.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
IS HE A MINOR?
HE IS NOT. HE IS THE GENTLEMAN
r 7
8
THAT TESTIFIED ON MONDAY.
THE COURT: WHO WANTED A WARRANT FOR HIM?
r 9 MR. TROCHA: WE ASKED FOR ONE BACK ON LAST
r 10
11
TUESDAY. HE SHOWED UP TO COURT ON WEDNESDAY, I BELIEVE.
THE COURT: AND YOU ASKED FOR THE WARRANT ON
12 JULIO CARILLO RAMIREZ WHOSE DAD IS PUENTE?
r 13 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT. WE ASKED FOR WARRANTS
r 14
15
FOR ALL THREE OF THOSE GUYS. THEY SHOWED UP AND WE HAD
THEM RECALLED AND ORDERED BACK FOR DIFFERENT DAYS.
r 16 THE COURT: SO ANY WARRANT WE HAVE OUT THERE

17 FOR THIS JULIO PUENTE, WHETHER IT IS UNDER THE CORRECT
r 18 NAME OR NOT, NEEDS TO BE RECALLED.
c 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
EXACTLY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I JUST WANT TO BE
r 21
22
SURE I'M NOT RECALLING A WARRANT ON A DEFENSE WITNESS
THAT YOU WANTED OUT.
r 23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO.
ARE WE ON THE SAME PAGE?
24
r 26
27
ADDRESSING THE CLERK, WE RECEIVED A COMMUNIQUE
r 28 FROM THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SAYING THAT OUR WARRANT
r
1073
l
l
1 FOR JULIO PUENTE WAS CONFUSING ABOUT JULIO CARILLO
2 RAMIREZ. LET'S INFORM THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT THAT l
3 THAT WARRANT, UNDER WHATEVER NAME, IS RECALLED.
4 THE CLERK: UNDER WHO? l
THE COURT: WHATEVER NAME THEY HAVE IT UNDER.
5
6 THE SHERIFFS SAY THE DESCRIPTORS WE GAVE THEM WAS FOR A
l
7
8
JULIO CARILLO RAMIREZ, BUT THE WARRANT IS JULIO PUENTE.
WE NEED TO GET ALL OF THAT RECALLED.
l
9 THE CLERK: BUT ON THE WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT, l
10 THERE IS A DIFFERENT NAME.
11 THE COURT: NO. IT'S JULIO PUENTE. l
12 THE CLERK: OKAY. WELL, THEY HAVE TO RECALL ON
13 JULIO CARILLO RAMIREZ.
l
14
15
THE COURT: NO.
WARRANT OF ATTACHMENT WAS UNDER.
JULIO PUENTE IS THE NAME THE
l
16 THE CLERK: SHE HAS HERE THAT SHE CALLED THE
1
17 WARRANT ON EDUARDO PUENTE. WHO'S THAT?
18 MR. TROCHA: HE IS HIS UNCLE, WHO ALSO HAD A l
19 WARRANT OUT, THAT WAS RECALLED AT THE SAME TIME.
20 THE COURT: SO APPARENTLY SHE DIDN'T -- THE l
21
22
MINUTES DON'T ACCURATELY REFLECT THAT THE WARRANT WAS
RECALLED. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN RECALLED ON JULIO PUENTE.
l
23
24
I'M DOING IT NOW, AND WE'LL NOTIFY THE SHERIFF THAT ANY
WARRANT ON JULIO PUENTE OR JULIO RAMIREZ IS RECALLED.
l
25 MR. TROCHA: THERE SHOULD BE NO WARRANTS FOR l
26 ANY PUENTES OR ANY JULIO RAMIREZES.
27 THE COURT: SO JUST TELL THEM WHATEVER THEY l
28 SENT US, RECALL IT. IT'S GONE.
l
l
[
1074
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, JUST TO ADDRESS

r 2 THE COURT ON WHAT HAPPENED EARLIER, I APOLOGIZE IF IT
r
L
3
4
SEEMED LIKE I WAS BEING REPETITIVE. MY THOUGHT WAS THIS
IS DENSE AND DIFFICULT MATERIAL TO UNDERSTAND.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
OVER IT 18 TIMES.
RIGHT. BUT YOU DON'T GET TO GO
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
REPETITIVE AS BEST I CAN.
AND I'M TRYING NOT TO BE
r 9
10 YOU.
THE COURT: APOLOGY IS NOT NECESSARY.
WE ARE IN RECESS.
THANK
r 11 (AT 12:03 P.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN, TO
r 12
13
Ill
r 14
15
Ill
Ill
r 16
17
Ill
Ill
r 18 Ill
r; 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25 Ill
r 26
27
Ill
Ill
r 28 Ill
r
1075
l
l
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6, 2011, 1:26 PM
2 l
4 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
1
~

6 GOOD AFTERNOON. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS
l
7
8
ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
MR. MONTPETIT IS ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD AFTERNOON
l
9 TO YOU, SIR. l
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR
11 EXAMINATION. l
l
13
14
Q. MR. MONTPETIT, BEFORE THE BREAK WE WERE TALKING , J
15 ABOUT SOMETHING CALLED MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. AND JUST A QUICK REVIEW OF THE CONCEPT OF
18 MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD IS TO PROTECT AGAINST l
19 DOING ANY ANALYSIS OR INTERPRETATION OF A MIXTURE SAMPLE
20 WHEN THERE ARE A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF ALLELES IN THE l
21 STOCHASTIC RANGE, RIGHT?
22 A. THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD IS, IN OUR
l
23
24
LAB, DESIGNED TO ALERT US TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE
ALLELES PRESENT IN THE MIXTURE THAT MAY BE PAIRED WITH
l
25 ALLELES THAT ARE NOT DETECTED. l
26 Q. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE -- ACTUALLY, LET ME
27 INTRODUCE OR SHOW YOU EXHIBIT X. l
28 Ill
l
l
r. 1076
r 1 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT X, ELECTROPHEROGRAMS OF
r 2 ITEMS 16-3 AND 17-3, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

r 4 Q. DEFENSE X, MR. MONTPETIT, IS A 12-PAGE EXHIBIT.
r 5
6
IT CONSISTS OF ELECTROPHEROGRAMS, CORRECT?
A. THAT'S WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE, YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
OF ITEMS 16-3 AND 17-3.
OKAY.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
IS THAT RIGHT?
THAT'S WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE. IT DOESN'T
r 11 APPEAR TO BE FROM MY ANALYTICAL RECORD, HOWEVER.
r 12
13
Q. DO YOU HAVE THE ONES FROM YOUR ANALYTICAL
RECORD ON YOU?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
WOULD YOU RATHER USE THOSE? IS THAT EASIER FOR
l 16
17
YOU?
A. YES.
[ 18 Q. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE THOSE OUT SO THAT YOU CAN
r 19
20
REFER TO THOSE TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION.
IF YOU COULD, JUST DO A QUICK REVIEW OF THE
r 21
22
EXHIBIT AND YOUR RECORDS TO MAKE SURE THERE IS NOTHING
SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT FROM THEM OR IF IT'S AN ACCURATE
r 23
24
REPRESENTATION OF YOUR NOTES AS WELL.
MR. MONTPETIT, IN THE INTEREST OF TIME, WHY
r 25 DON'T WE JUST USE YOUR NOTES RIGHT NOW, AND AT THE NEXT
BREAK, IF YOU DON'T MIND TAKING A LOOK AT THAT EXHIBIT,
r
26
27 WE'LL MAKE SURE IT'S ACCURATE WITH YOUR NOTES.
r 28 A. OKAY. WE CAN DO THAT.
r
1077
l
l
1 Q. IS THAT ALL RIGHT?
2 A. SURE. l
3 Q. THANK YOU.
4 MR. MONTPETIT, IN ITEM 16-3, AND I'M GOING TO l
5 GO TO SLIDE 15, AND IF YOU WANT TO USE YOUR NOTES AS FAR
l
6
7
AS THE ELECTROPHEROGRAM AS WELL, THE ALLELES WHERE
MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES 16-3 AT LOCUS D2S1338, ONE OF
THOSE ALLELES IS BELOW THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
,
J
8
9 THRESHOLD, CORRECT? l
10 A. IT'S BELOW OUR 200 RFU THRESHOLD, YES.
11 Q. AND ANOTHER ALLELE AT D18S51, ONE OF THOSE l
12 ALLELES WHERE HE MATCHES IS BELOW THE MATCH
13 INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD AS WELL. l
15 Q. AND ACCORDING TO BUDOWLE, WHAT YOU READ IN THE
l
16
17
MORNING, NEITHER OF THOSE LOCI SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED IN
CALCULATING THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION.
l
18 A. DR. BUDOWLE, BASED ON WHAT WE WROTE, WOULD NOT l
19 HAVE USED THOSE LOCI.
20 Q. YOU SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT. l
21 A. DR. BUDOWLE, BASED ON WHAT HE WROTE, WOULD NOT
22 HAVE USED THOSE LOCI. AS I SAID, WE DO IT A LITTLE BIT
l
23
24
DIFFERENTLY THAN DR. BUDOWLE, AND I DID USE THOSE LOCI.
HOWEVER, ANY GENOTYPE THAT DID NOT HAVE AN
l
25 ALLELE THAT WAS ABOVE THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD OF 200 l
26 RFU WAS NOT ACTUALLY USED IN THE CALCULATION AND WOULD
27 NOT ACTUALLY BE USED AGAINST ANYBODY WHO I WAS COMPARING l
28 IT TO.
1
l
[
1078
r
1 Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT FGA? BECAUSE IN FGA
l 2 AREN'T BOTH OF THOSE ALLELES FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ BELOW
3 200?
r 4 A. CORRECT. AND THEY WERE NOT USED IN MY
r 5
6
CALCULATION.
Q. SO WHEN YOU DID IT, THE ONLY REASON YOU
r 7
8
WOULDN'T USE A LOCUS IS IF BOTH ALLELES WERE BELOW THE
MATCH INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
r 9 A. CORRECT.
10 Q. BUT BUDOWLE'S SAYS THAT EVEN IF ONE OF THEM IS

r 11 BELOW, THAT LOCUS SHOULDN'T BE USED.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS, YES.
AND THE WAY YOU DO IT AS OPPOSED TO THE WAY
r 14
15
DR. BUDOWLE DOES IT -- THE WAY YOU DO IT CREATES A MORE
SIGNIFICANT STATISTIC THAN WHAT HE WOULD DO?
r 16 A. IT PROBABLY CREATES A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT
17 NUMBER, YES, AND MINE WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT MORE

[ 18 SIGNIFICANT.
19 Q. AND YOUR NUMBER CREATES A STRONGER MATCH.

r 20 A. AS MUCH AS 1 IN 450 IS STRONG, YES.
r 21
22
Q. IF YOU WOULD, TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR
ELECTROPHEROGRAMS FOR 17-3, PLEASE. WOULD YOU TAKE A
r 23 LOOK AT 17-3, AND IT'S AT SLIDE 60.
24 AT 17-3, IF YOU LOOK AT LOCUS D21S11, ONE OF
r 25 THE ALLELES WHERE MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES IN THIS ONE IS
r 26
27
BELOW THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
r 28 Q. AND IN VWA, ONE OF THESE ALLELES IS BELOW THE
r
1079
1
l
1 MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
2 A. CORRECT. l
3 Q. AND IN LOCUS TPOX OR T-POX?
4 A. IT IS TPOX. IT IS COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS l
5 T-POX.
6 Q. IN THAT LOCUS, ONE OF THE ALLELES WHERE
l
7
8
MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES IS BELOW THE MIXTURE
INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, CORRECT?
l
9 A. CORRECT. l
10 Q. SO, AGAIN, ACCORDING TO DR. BUDOWLE IN 17-3,
11 THESE THREE LOCI SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN USED IN DOING THE l
12 STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
l
13
14
A. AGAIN, BASED ON WHAT HE WROTE, DR. BUDOWLE
WOULD LIKELY NOT USE THOSE LOCI IN THE CALCULATION. , J
15 Q. AND, AGAIN, IN YOUR LAB AND WHEN YOU DID THE
16 ANALYSIS, YOU DID INCLUDE THOSE WHEN DOING YOUR
l
17 ANALYSIS.
l
18
19
20
A. YES, WITH THE CAVEAT THAT ANY GENOTYPE THAT WE
CONSIDERED HAD TO HAVE AT LEAST ONE OF THE PAIR BE ABOVE
200 RFU, WHICH IS OUR STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD.
,
J
21 Q. AND ACCORDING TO MR. BUDOWLE, THE REASON THAT

22 THESE SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED IS BECAUSE IT UNFAIRLY
l
23
24
BIASES THE STATISTIC TOWARDS INCLUSION, RIGHT?
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS CONCLUSION WOULD BE
l
25 WITH REGARD TO INCLUSION OR EXCLUSION IN THIS CASE; l
26 HOWEVER, BASED ON WHAT HE WROTE, HIS STAT, IF HE
27 PROVIDED ONE, WOULD LIKELY BE A LITTLE LESS SIGNIFICANT l
28 THAN 1 IN 450.
l
l
r 1080
1 Q. NOW, GO BACK TO 16-3 AGAIN, AND I'LL GO BACK TO

f1fl
I
2 SLIDE 15.
3 A LOT OF THE ALLELES DETECTED ARE -- NOT JUST

4 THE ONES THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHES UP WITH, BUT JUST
5 THE ALLELES IN GENERAL -- ARE BELOW THE MIXTURE
6 INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, CORRECT?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IN D8S1179, THE 10 IS BELOW THE

i 9 MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
10 A. YES.
r 11 Q. THE 11 ALSO.
r 12 A. YES.
l 13 Q. IN D7S820, 7 IS BELOW THE THRESHOLD.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
8 IS BELOW.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
9.
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
IN CSFIPO, 10 IS BELOW, RIGHT?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
IN D3S1358, 17 IS BELOW.
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
18.
YES.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
19.
YES.
r 27 Q. IN TH01, THAT LOCUS --
r 28 A. YES.
r
1081
1 Q. THE 9.3 IS BELOW.

2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. IN D13S317, THE 8 IS BELOW.
I I
4 A. YES.
5 Q. IN D16S539, THE 9 IS BELOW. 9
i
7 Q. IN D19S433, THE 15.2 IS BELOW.
8 A. YES.
,
9 Q. IN VWA, 14 IS BELOW.
10 A. YES.
11 Q. 18 IS ALSO BELOW. j
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. IN TPOX, THE 11 IS BELOW. l
14
15
A.
Q.
THAT IS RIGHT.
IN D5S818, THE 12 IS BELOW.
l
16 A. CORRECT.
l
17
18
Q.
A.
AND THE 13 IS BELOW.
YES.
, J
19 Q. LET ME COUNT THEM. 18 OF THE ALLELES IN 16-3
20 ARE BELOW THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD. l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. HAVING SO MANY BELOW, THAT'S INDICATIVE THAT
l
23
24
NOT ALL THE ALLELES HAVE BEEN PRODUCED.
A. IT MEANS THAT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF THE
l
25 ALLELES ARE MISSING AT THOSE MARKERS. l
26 Q. AND THOSE ALLELES, IF THEY HAD BEEN REPORTED OR
27 DID POP UP, WOULD ALSO CHANGE THE PROBABILITY OF l
28 INCLUSION.
l
l
r
l
1082
1 A. WELL, IN THE WAY WE CALCULATE, BECAUSE WE

2 NEED-- IN A MIXTURE CALCULATION, WHEN WE DO WHAT'S
3 CALLED A COMBINED PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION, WHAT WE'RE
4 DOING IS WE'RE CONSIDERING ALL POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS OF
5 GENOTYPES THAT COULD BE GOING INTO MAKING UP THE RESULTS
6 OF THAT.
fmFI
I
I
7 HOWEVER, WE HAVE THE CAVEAT THAT IT'S ONLY
8 GENOTYPES THAT HAVE AT LEAST ONE OF THE TWO ALLELES
9 ABOVE 200 RFU. SO ONLY THE GENOTYPES THAT HAVE A HIGHER
10 EXPECTATION OF HAVING AN ALLELE PAIRED WITH THEM BEING
r 11 DETECTED ARE USED IN OUR CALCULATION.
r
!
12
13
ANY OTHER COMBINATION THAT INCLUDES ALLELES
BELOW THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD ARE NOT USED IN OUR
r 14
15
CALCULATION. THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED AGAINST SOMEBODY
WHEN WE PERFORM THAT CALCULATION.
r 16
17
Q. SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SPECIFIC TO THAT PERSON,
THAT IT WOULDN'T BE USED, THAT LOCUS, RIGHT?
r 18 A. CORRECT.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
AND IT WOULD HAVE TO BE BOTH ALLELES.
YES.
r 21
22
Q. LET'S LOOK AT 17-3. I PUT UP SLIDE 16 JUST FOR
REFERENCE FOR 17-3 AND THE ALLELES THAT ARE PRESENT.
r 23
24
THIS ONE ALSO HAS SEVERAL ALLELES THAT ARE
BELOW THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, RIGHT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
AT D8S1179, 10 IS BELOW?
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. 11 IS ALSO BELOW.
r
1083
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. AT D3S1358, 17 IS BELOW.
3 A. I MIGHT NOT BE LOOKING AT THE SAME --
4 Q. WE'RE LOOKING AT 17-3.
5 A. YOU SAID D3; IS THAT CORRECT?
6 Q. D3S1358.
7 A. YEAH, I DON'T EVEN SEE THE 17 DETECTED IN
8 THAT.
9 Q. I MIGHT HAVE IT OFF A LITTLE. IS IT 18 OR 19?
10 I MIGHT HAVE IT IN THE WRONG BOX.
~
i
11 A. IN D3, EVERYTHING IS ABOVE THE STOCHASTIC j
I
12 THRESHOLD.
13 Q. HOW ABOUT TH01?
l
14 A. TH01, THE 9 ALLELE IS BELOW THE THRESHOLD.
15 Q. HOW ABOUT D16S539?
16 A. THE 13 IS BELOW 200 RFU. l
17 Q. IT APPEARS AS THOUGH MY NOTES MIGHT NOT BE
18 ACCURATE. TAKE A LOOK AT 17-3 AND TELL ME WHAT WE l
19 MISSED. WHAT'S BELOW THE THRESHOLD?
20 A. AT D21, THERE IS A 29.2 BELOW THE 200 RFU. AT l
21 D7 THERE IS AN 8 AND 11 AND A 12. AT CSF THERE IS A 10.
22 AT TH01, WE'VE ALREADY MENTIONED IS THE 9.
l
23
24
AT D13, EVERYTHING IS ABOVE THRESHOLD.
A 13 IS BELOW. D2, THE 20 AND 23 ARE BOTH BELOW.
AT D16,
AT
l
25 019, EVERYTHING IS ABOVE THRESHOLD. AT VWA, THE 14 IS l
26 BELOW AND THE 19 IS BELOW.
27 AT TPOX, THE 10 IS BELOW. AT D18, WE HAVE A l
28 14, AN 18 AND 22 THAT ARE BELOW 200 RFU. AT D5, A 13 IS
1 J
l
r 1084
rm
1 BELOW. AND AT FGA, THERE IS AN 18, A 21, A 25, A 26 AND
r 2
3
A 27 THAT ARE ALL BELOW 200 RFU.
r 4
Q. I'LL COUNT THOSE AND SEE HOW MANY WE HAVE, AND
LET'S SEE IF I GOT THIS ACCURATE. 23 OF THE ALLELES ARE
r
p!m
5
6
BELOW THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
A. 22 OR 23 ALLELES ARE BELOW 200 RFU, YES.
7 Q. AGAIN, HAVING A LOT OF THE ALLELES BELOW IN
8 THIS PARTICULAR EXAMPLE INDICATES THAT THERE'S A
r 9 POSSIBILITY AND MAYBE EVEN A PROBABILITY THAT THE PCR

10 ANALYSIS DIDN'T PRODUCE ALL OF THE ALLELES.
r 11 A. SURE.
r 12
13
Q. AND ADDITIONAL ALLELES WOULD LOWER THE
INCLUSION STAT.
r 14
15
A. WELL, LIKE I SAID, NOT NECESSARILY IN OUR CASE,
BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T CHANGE IT DRAMATICALLY BECAUSE WE'RE
r 16
17
ONLY CONSIDERING TYPES THAT ARE GENOTYPES OR
COMBINATIONS OF TYPES THAT HAVE AT LEAST ONE ALLELE
r 18 ABOVE THE THRESHOLD; THE OTHER ONE CAN BE BELOW. SO,
r 19
20
YES, THERE WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN THE
CALCULATION, BUT IT WOULDN'T BE INCREDIBLY DRAMATIC.
r 21
22
Q. MOVING ON FROM MATCH INTERPRETATION
THRESHOLD -- THANK YOU FOR THAT, MR. MONTPETIT
r 23
24
THERE'S A CONCEPT CALLED ACCOUNTING.
THAT?
HAVE YOU HEARD
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT TERM.
FOR EXAMPLE, IN A LOW MIXTURE CASE, A LESS
r 27 COMPLICATED MIXTURE, IF THERE'S, SAY, A POTENTIAL
r 28 MINIMUM OF TWO PEOPLE IN THAT MIXTURE AND YOU HAVE TWO
r
1085
1 REFERENCE SAMPLES AND YOU ADD THOSE TWO REFERENCE
,
2 SAMPLES TOGETHER, THEY WOULD MAKE UP THE MIXTURE SAMPLE
3 EXACTLY. HAVE YOU HEARD THAT CONCEPT?
\
4 A. I'M UNFAMILIAR WITH THE CONCEPT OF LOOKING AT A
5 MIXTURE TO DETERMINE WHETHER ALL THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE
6 INCLUDED ACCOUNT FOR ALL THE DNA TYPES.
7 Q. AND BOTH 17-3 AND 16-3, YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON
8 THESE, CAN YOU?
,.,J
I
9 A. WELL, THEY'RE DEFINITELY DNA TYPES THAT ARE
10 UNACCOUNTED FOR, BUT WE CANNOT GO THROUGH THAT MIXTURE
11 AND DETERMINE WHICH EXACT DNA PROFILES ACROSS THE BOARD
12 GO INTO MAKING UP THAT MIXTURE.
13 Q. BECAUSE IT'S TOO COMPLICATED.
l J
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
TAKE A LOOK AT SLIDE 32.
l
16 YOUR OPINION IS THAT JOSUE GUTIERREZ IS A
l
17 POSSIBLE MINOR CONTRIBUTOR, RIGHT?
18 A. I COULD NOT EXCLUDE HIM AS A POSSIBLE MINOR, l
19 THAT'S TRUE.
l
20
21
Q. IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIRST PCR 16-2,
MR. GUTIERREZ HAS A LOT OF ALLELES MISSING. ALL THE , I
22 ONES IN RED ARE THE ONES INDICATED THAT ARE MISSING FROM
23
24
THE MIXTURE, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
25 Q. YOU DO THE PCR AGAIN, AND HE MATCHES AT MORE OF l
26 THE MIXTURE, RIGHT?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND THEN YOU SWAB IT -- WELL, YOU SWABBED THE
l
l
r 1086
r
1 GLOVE AGAIN, YOU MARKED IT 16-3, AND YOU GET A MORE
r l 2 COMPLEX RESULT. AND HE MATCHES AT ALL BUT THREE.
3 A. CORRECT.
F
I
4 Q. THIS PHENOMENON WHERE AS THE MIXTURE GETS MORE
r 5
6
COMPLEX AND A GIVEN REFERENCE SAMPLE BECOMES MORE OF A
MATCH, THIS WOULD HAPPEN WITH ANYBODY, RIGHT?
~ 7 A. IT'S CONCEIVABLE, YEAH. THE MORE DNA TYPES
~
8 THAT GET DETECTED, THE MORE PEOPLE WOULD TEND TO MATCH.

~
I 9 Q. AND THAT'S BECAUSE THE NET KEEPS GETTING WIDER
r 10
11
AND WIDER EVERY TIME YOU PRODUCE MORE PEAKS.
A. EVERY TIME THERE IS MORE DNA TYPES DETECTED IN
r 12
13
THE MIXTURE, THE NUMBER OF POSSIBLE PEOPLE THAT COULD BE
CONTRIBUTING TO IT GOES UP.
r 14
15
Q. THANK YOU. WE'RE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS
ANYMORE, BUT WE'LL TALK ABOUT CALCULATING THE
r 16
17
PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION.
ON A MIXTURE SAMPLE, IS THE FORMULA THE SAME OR
r 18 DIFFERENT WHEN CALCULATING THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION
r 19
20
FOR SOMEBODY IN A MIXTURE SAMPLE VERSUS A SINGLE SOURCE
SAMPLE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THE CALCULATION IS DIFFERENT.
HOW?
r 23
24
A. IN A SINGLE SOURCE SAMPLE, IF THERE IS A SINGLE
PEAK DETECTED AND THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT IT'S ONLY A
r 25
26
SINGLE PERSON, THEN THERE'S ONLY ONE POSSIBLE GENOTYPE
COMBINATION FOR THAT, AND THAT IS THE PERSON HAS TO BE
r 27 HOMOZYGOUS, AND SO THE CALCULATION REFLECTS THAT.
r 28 AND IT IS ESSENTIALLY THE FREQUENCY OF THAT
r
1087
1 ALLELE THAT'S DETECTED AND IT'S SQUARED. THERE'S ALSO A

2 LITTLE CORRECTION FACTOR TO PREVENT, I GUESS, AN
3 OVERESTIMATION OF THAT GENOTYPE FREQUENCY.
4 AND IF THERE IS ONLY TWO DNA TYPES, THEN IT'S
5 THE COMBINATION OF THOSE TWO DNA TYPES MULTIPLIED
6 TOGETHER AND THEN MULTIPLIED BY TWO.
7 WHEN IT'S A MIXTURE AND YOU'RE DOING A COMBINED
8 PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE
9
10
11
TAKING THE POSSIBILITY OF EVERY COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES
THAT'S DETECTED IN THAT MIXTURE. IN OUR CASE WE'RE
DOING EVERY COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES THAT HAS AT LEAST
, )
12 ONE OF THE PAIRED ALLELES ABOVE 200.

13 AND SO THAT'S THE WAY THE CALCULATION DIFFERS. l
14 IT CONSIDERS A LOT MORE POSSIBILITIES OF GENOTYPE
l J
15 COMBINATIONS.
16 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF THE FORMULA CALLED THE
l
17 LIKELIHOOD RATIO?
18 A. YES, I HAVE.
19 Q. WHAT IS THAT? ~
I
20 A. THE LIKELIHOOD RATIO IS A DIFFERENT WAY OF I
21 APPROACHING A MIXTURE CALCULATION. THE LIKELIHOOD RATIO

1 J
22 DIFFERS FROM A COMBINED PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION,
23
24
BECAUSE A LIKELIHOOD RATIO YOU NEED TO MAKE CERTAIN
ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE MIXTURE THAT YOU'VE GOT.
l
25 THE CALCULATION ITSELF IS A COMPARISON OF l
26 DIFFERENT HYPOTHESES. AND, AS AN EXAMPLE, IN THE
27 COMPARISON YOU WOULD DO A RATIO OF, SAY, THE HYPOTHESIS l
28 THAT A CERTAIN PERSON IS PART OF THE MIXTURE, COMPARED
l
l
r 1088
r
I
1 WITH THE CHANCE THAT OR THE PROBABILITY THAT THAT PERSON

r
I 2 IS NOT A PART OF THE MIXTURE.
3 AND SO YOU WOULD CALCULATE ASSUMING THAT THIS
4 PERSON IS PART OF THE MIXTURE, YOU'D GET A NUMBER; AND
5
r 6
THEN ASSUMING THAT A RANDOM PERSON IS PART OF THE
MIXTURE, YOU'D GET A NUMBER. YOU'D COMPARE THOSE TWO
7 DIFFERENT PROBABILITIES.
8 AND IF YOU GOT A NUMBER GREATER THAN 1, THEN
r
I
9 IT'S SIGNIFICANT IN TERMS OF IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT THE
10 PERSON IS PART OF THE MIXTURE. IF YOU GET A NUMBER
r 11 THAT'S LESS THAN 1, IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT A RANDOM
r 12
13
PERSON IS PART OF THE MIXTURE.
TYPICALLY IN A MIXTURE SUCH AS THIS, THE
r 14
15
LIKELIHOOD RATIO IS NOT APPLIED BECAUSE IT REQUIRES
ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE MIXTURE, AND THERE IS NOT MANY
r 16
17
ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE CAN MAKE, SO WE PREFER TO USE THE
COMBINED PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION.
r 18 Q. SO YOU DID NOT USE THE LIKELIHOOD RATIO IN THIS

19 CASE?
r 20 A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THAT.
LASTLY, ON THE ISSUE OF THIS NET CASTING, HOW
r 23
24
MORE ALLELES MAKES THE NET WIDER AND WIDER, AT SOME
POINT IN A MIXTURE SAMPLE IT BECOMES SO WIDE THAT NO
r 25 INCLUSIONS CAN BE MADE; WOULD YOU AGREE?
r 26
27
A. I WOULD SAY THAT AT SOME POINT, WHEN YOU GET SO
MANY DNA TYPES, PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY WOULD BE INCLUDED,
r 28 AND REALLY WE TRY AND REFLECT THAT IN THE STATISTIC THAT
r
1089
1 WE PROVIDE FOR IT. THE STATISTIC THAT WE PROVIDE FOR

2 ANY INCLUSION IS MEANT TO CONVEY THE SIGNIFICANCE.
3 IF THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION IN A MIXTURE
4 WAS, SAY, ONE IN ONE PERSON WOULD BE INCLUDED, THAT
5 MEANS EVERYBODY WOULD BE INCLUDED, AND THAT MIXTURE IS
6 NOT VERY DISCRIMINATING.
~
7 HOWEVER, LIKE I SAID, WE TRY VERY HARD TO MAKE
!
8 SURE THE NUMBER WE PRESENT WITH OUR MIXTURE REFLECTS THE
9 SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT ASSOCIATION.
10
11
Q. WHERE -- WHEN DOES -- AT WHAT POINT, HOW MANY
ALLELES DO YOU NEED BEFORE IT'S TOO COMPLEX TO MAKE AN
, I
12 INCLUSION?
13 A. THAT WOULD DEPEND ON WHICH ALLELES ARE
l _I
14 DETECTED. SOME ALLELES ARE VERY COMMON, SOME ALLELES ~ )
j
15 ARE VERY RARE. AND IT WOULD DIFFER FROM MIXTURE TO
16 MIXTURE. l
17
18
Q.
A.
IS THAT A DIFFICULT THING TO ASCERTAIN?
WELL, ULTIMATELY THE STATISTICS PROVIDE SOME OF
, J
19 THAT ANSWER. IF YOU DO THE COMBINED PROBABILITY OF

20 INCLUSION CALCULATION, YOU COME UP WITH A NUMBER, LIKE I l
21 SAID, WHERE IT'S SUGGESTED THAT EVERYBODY'S INCLUDED,
l
22
23
THEN ESSENTIALLY YOU'VE GOT MATHEMATICAL PROOF THAT THAT
MIXTURE IS REALLY NOT USEFUL FOR MAKING ANY SORT OF
, 1
24 COMPARISONS.
25 Q. THE 16-3 AND 17-3, YOUR OPINION IS THAT IT'S l
26 NOT TOO COMPLICATED TO WHERE IT MEETS THAT THRESHOLD OF,
27 "HEY, WE CAN'T MAKE ANY CONCLUSIONS ON IT"? l
28 A. NO. I'VE MADE INCLUSIONS ON IT, AND I'VE
l
1
r
1090
r
I
1 PRESENTED STATISTICAL ANALYSIS THAT TENDS TO REFLECT THE

~
I 2 STRENGTH OF THOSE INCLUSIONS.
~ 3 Q. BUT IS IT CLOSE? I MEAN, ISN'T IT GETTING
I
I
i
4 THERE? IT'S PRETTY COMPLEX ALREADY, RIGHT?
r
l
5 A. IT'S A COMPLEX MIXTURE, YES.
6 Q. IT'S ALMOST THERE, ISN'T IT?
r 7 A. LIKE I SAID
8 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. VAGUE, YOUR HONOR.
~
I
l
9 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE, PLEASE.
r 11 Q. IT'S ALMOST SO COMPLEX, IN YOUR OPINION, THAT,
12 YOU KNOW, IF YOU GOT ANY MORE ALLELES IN IT, YOU
r 13 WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO MAKE ANY INCLUSIONS?
r 14
15
A. IF WE HAD MORE ALLELES, THEN THE STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS WOULD BE DIFFERENT. AND BASED ON THAT
r 16
17
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, YEAH, I MIGHT RENDER THAT OPINION.
HOWEVER, BASED ON THE ANALYSIS THAT I DID DO
r 18 AND THE RESULTS THAT I GOT, I FELT I WAS ABLE TO RENDER
r 19
20
CONCLUSIONS ON IT.
Q. THANK YOU, MR. MONTPETIT.
r 21
22 RENDERED.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THOSE OPINIONS YOU
r 23
24
ON SLIDE NO. 36, THIS IS A LIST OF PEOPLE, AND
THIS LIST IS THE PEOPLE WHO CANNOT BE EXCLUDED AS A
r 25 POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTOR TO 16-3; AM I CORRECT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
SO WE HAVE 12 OF THE REFERENCE SAMPLES THAT YOU
r 28 TESTED, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO SAY THEY WEREN'T IN IT; THEY
r
1091
1 COULD BE IN IT.
2 A. THAT'S TRUE.
3 Q. AND THIS LIST, A MUCH SHORTER LIST, IS THE ONES
4 THAT CAN BE EXCLUDED, RIGHT?
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. THAT'S SIX, RIGHT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. SO OUT OF THE -- YOU TESTED, I GUESS, 18
9 REFERENCE SAMPLES.
10 A. YES, I DID.
11
12
13
Q. OUT OF THOSE 18 REFERENCE SAMPLES, I GUESS THE
PERCENTAGE WOULD BE 66 PERCENT OF ALL THE REFERENCE
SAMPLES YOU TESTED COULDN'T BE EXCLUDED FROM THE
, J
14 MIXTURE.
15 A. YES, AT DIFFERENT LEVELS, OBVIOUSLY, BASED ON
16
17
THE DIFFERENT STATISTICS THAT I GAVE.
l
Q. AND THIS LIST ON PAGE 38, THIS IS 17-3, PEOPLE
18 WHO CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM 17-3, RIGHT?
20 Q. 17-3 IS A LITTLE BIT LESS COMPLEX THAN 16-3. l
21 A. IT HAS LESS ALLELES.
22 Q. AND IN THIS ONE, 11 PEOPLE CANNOT BE EXCLUDED.
l
23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND PAGE 39, THIS IS A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO CAN
l
25 BE EXCLUDED. AND SINCE WE'RE DEALING WITH 18, THIS IS l
26 OBVIOUSLY 7 PEOPLE.
27 A. CORRECT. l J
28 Q. SO THE PERCENTAGE ON THAT IS 61.1 PERCENT OF

l
l
r 1092
r 1
r 2
ALL REFERENCE SAMPLES YOU TESTED COULDN'T BE EXCLUDED
FROM 17-3.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
AT DIFFERENT LEVELS, BUT, YES, THAT'S RIGHT.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SLIDE 40.
r 5
6
WHEN YOU DID THE FIRST SWAB ON THE INNER RIGHT
GLOVE, YOU EXCLUDED THIS LIST OF PEOPLE. BUT THEN WHEN
r 7
8
YOU RETESTED IT AFTER SWABBING IT AGAIN, THESE PEOPLE
NOW CANNOT BE EXCLUDED, RIGHT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SO THE TWO TESTS, 16-2 AND 16-3, THEY SOMEWHAT
r 11 CONFLICT A LITTLE BIT.
r 12
13
A. WELL, THEY'RE INDEPENDENT ANALYSES WITH
SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT RESULTS.
r 14
15
Q. AND ACCORDING TO THE 16-2, YOUR OPINION WAS
THESE PEOPLE ARE EXCLUDED; THEY COULDN'T BE PART OF THE
r 16
17
SAMPLE.
A. THERE BASICALLY WASN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION THERE
r 18 TO MAKE AN INCLUSION ON THOSE PEOPLE.
r 19
20
Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS PRINCIPLE OF ACCOUNTING
r 21
22
AGAIN, BRIEFLY. AND I'M GOING TO APPROACH.
YOU SAID THAT MOISES IS A CONTRIBUTOR, RIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
POTENTIALLY A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR IS JOSE
r 25
26
GUTIERREZ.
A. CORRECT.
r 27 Q. AND FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
1093
1 Q. OKAY. HYPOTHETICALLY, LET'S ASSUME THAT THEY

~I
I
2 ARE CONTRIBUTORS, THOSE THREE PEOPLE. ALL RIGHT?
3 WE CAN MAKE A DEDUCTION ON THE MINIMUM AMOUNT ~
i
\
4 OF CONTRIBUTORS LEFT OVER, CAN WE NOT?
5 A. YES.
6
7
Q. AND WE WOULD DO THAT BY SUBTRACTING THEM OUT OF
THE MIXTURE AND THEN COUNTING WHAT'S LEFT IN THE LOCUS
,
8 THAT HAS THE MOST ALLELES.
~I
A. NOT NECESSARILY THE MOST ALLELES, BUT IF YOU
,
9
10 WERE TO USE THE MOST UNACCOUNTED FOR ALLELES.

11 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, 17-3, LET'S LOOK AT D8S1179. J
12 IF WE ASSUME THAT DOMINGUEZ AND GUTIERREZ ARE

l
13
14
15
IN THE MIXTURE AND SO IS MOISES, WE SEE THAT THEY HAVE A
13 TOTAL -- A 12, A 13 -- AND, AGAIN, JOSUE GUTIERREZ
HAS A 12 AND A 13 AT THIS LOCUS, D8S1179, RIGHT?
, 1
l
,
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. SO IF YOU SUBTRACT THAT OUT OF 17-3, YOU HAVE
18 TO SUBTRACT OUT THE 12 AND 13. J
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND WHAT'S LEFT OVER IS THE 10, 11, 14 AND 15. l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. AND HAVING FOUR ALLELES LEFT OVER, THERE WOULD
l
23
24
HAVE TO BE TWO ADDITIONAL PEOPLE IN THERE.
A. IF YOU WERE TO ASSUME THAT ALL THOSE PEOPLE
l
25 WERE IN THERE, YES. l
26 Q. SO IF ALL THREE OF THESE PEOPLE ARE IN THE
27 MIXTURE SAMPLE, THAT MEANS THERE WOULD BE THOSE THREE, l
28 PLUS TWO MORE WOULD BE FIVE.
l
l
r
l
1094
1 A. CORRECT.
~
I
! 2 Q. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT 16-3, SAME CONCEPT.
r 3
4
WE HAVE THE D8S1179 LOCUS, IF YOU WILL.
AGAIN, THESE HAVEN'T CHANGED.
AND,
MOISES IS A 13, JOSUE
r 5
6
GUTIERREZ IS A 12 AND A 13, AND FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ IS A
12 AND 13, RIGHT?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. SO WE'RE GOING TO SUBTRACT OUT THE 12 AND 13

9 FROM D8S1179 AND WE HAVE LEFT OVER A 10, AN 11, A 14, A
10 15 AND A 16, RIGHT?
r 11 A. CORRECT.
r
I
12
13
Q. SO ASSUMING THAT THESE THREE PEOPLE WHO YOU
MADE AN OPINION OF INCLUSIONS ON, ASSUMING THEY ARE IN
r 14
15
THE MIXTURE, WITH FIVE ALLELES LEFT OVER THERE WOULD
HAVE TO BE THREE ADDITIONAL PEOPLE.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, THAT IS CORRECT.
SO THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE THOSE THREE THAT WE
r 18 MENTIONED, PLUS THREE. THAT WOULD BE SIX TOTAL.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU ANOTHER SLIDE HERE,
r 21
22
MR. MONTPETIT. THIS IS SLIDE NO. 43.
YOU KNOW WHAT THOSE RED NUMBERS ARE, DON'T YOU?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
WHAT ARE THEY?
r 25 A. THOSE ARE DNA TYPES FROM MY DNA PROFILE THAT DO
26 NOT MATCH THIS MIXTURE.

r 27 Q. I LEFT OUT THE ONES THAT DO MATCH, RIGHT?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
1095
, I
1 Q. I GAVE YOU A COPY OF YOUR DNA PROFILE.
2 DID YOU CHECK THAT MY WORK IS ACCURATE?
3 A. I HAVEN'T DONE THAT YET.

4 Q. DO YOU WANT TO?
IIJll!')
5 A. YOU KNOW, I'LL BELIEVE YOU. I
J
7
Q. OKAY. BASED ON THIS, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO
EXCLUDE YOURSELF FROM THE SAMPLE, WOULD YOU?
, l
J
8 A. ACTUALLY, I WOULD EXCLUDE MYSELF FROM THIS

9 SAMPLE.
10 Q. BECAUSE OF 14? ,.,
,
I
I
11 A. BECAUSE OF THE ABSENCE OF THE 14 AT THE D3
12 MARKER. THE D3 MARKER WAS THE DNA MARKER THAT HAD THE
J
13 HIGHEST OVERALL INTENSITY OF RFU REPRESENTED. AND, AS I
14 SAID, I BELIEVE IT WAS YESTERDAY, THAT IN OUR j
15 INTERPRETATION GUIDELINES WE LOOK AT THE -- WE RANK THE
16 MARKERS BASED ON THE INTENSITY LEVELS.
l
17
18
WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOUR MOST INTENSE
MARKERS ARE GOING TO MORE LIKELY REPRESENT OR HAVE YOUR
, J
19 MINOR CONTRIBUTORS REPRESENTED AT THEM, AND BECAUSE I'M

l
20
21
22
MISSING AN ALLELE AT THE MOST INTENSE DNA MARKER, I
WOULD THEREFORE EXCLUDE MYSELF FROM THAT MIXTURE.
Q. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE INSTANCES WHERE YOU'RE
, 1
23
24
USING SCIENTIFIC JUDGMENT, RIGHT?
A. I GUESS SO, YES.
l
25 Q. BECAUSE THERE IS ANOTHER PERSON WHO YOU DID NOT l
26 EXCLUDE. HER NAME IS SIRIA FORD, RIGHT?
27 A. I BELIEVE THAT'S RIGHT. l
28 Q. AND SHE WAS CONSISTENT AT ALL THE LOCUS EXCEPT
l
l
r 1096
I
1 FOR FIVE AS WELL. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
r 2 A. NOT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT, AGAIN, I'LL
r 3
4
TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT.
Q. SO YOU'RE USING -- YOU'RE NOT JUST COUNTING THE
r 5
6
NUMBERS AS TO HOW MANY ARE CONSISTENT AND HOW MANY ARE
NOT.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU'RE USING YOUR JUDGMENT TO DECIDE THAT THAT
r 9 LOCUS WHERE YOU'RE NOT CONSISTENT AT 14, YOU'RE

10 REGARDING THAT LOCUS AS BEING MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHER
r 11 LOCUS.
rl 12 A. RIGHT, WHICH IS BASED ON, YOU KNOW, OUR HISTORY

13 OF USE OF THIS DNA TESTING KIT, OUR COMBINED LEVEL OF
r 14
15
EXPERIENCE IN THE LABORATORY, OUR VALIDATION STUDIES.
THAT ALL GOES INTO OUR FORMULATION OF OUR INTERPRETATION
r 16
17
GUIDELINES. AND SO I GUESS IT IS OUR SCIENTIFIC
EXPERTISE THAT WE'VE DEVELOPED OVER TIME USING THIS DNA
r 18 TESTING KIT.
r 19
20
Q. AND A REASONABLE SCIENTIST MIGHT DIFFER IN
THEIR OPINION ON THAT ISSUE WITH YOU, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
IT'S POSSIBLE, YES.
AND, AGAIN, THIS IS 17-3 AND YOUR PROFILE; NOT
r 23
24
SHOWING YOU ONES WHERE YOU ARE CONSISTENT, ONLY SHOWING
ONES THAT ARE INCONSISTENT. IT'S PRETTY MUCH THE SAME,
r 25 AND YOU'D EXCLUDE YOURSELF FOR THE SAME REASON?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
LET ME GIVE YOU THIS HYPOTHETICAL ON SLIDE 45.
r 28 IF SOMEBODY HAD THIS PROFILE, WE'LL CALL HIM
r
1097
, \
1 VM, WHAT WOULD YOUR OPINION BE AS TO WHETHER HE'S AN

2 INCLUSION?
3 A. ON THIS PARTICULAR SAMPLE, THERE IS
6
INCONSISTENCIES AT D13 AND D18.
FOURTH MOST INTENSE DNA MARKER.
D13 IS ACTUALLY THE
AND, AGAIN, I WOULD
EXPECT THAT IF SOMEBODY WERE PRESENT IN THIS MIXTURE
,
7 THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TYPES SHOWING UP AT THE FOURTH MOST
8 INTENSE DNA MARKER; THEREFORE, I WOULD EXCLUDE THEM FROM
9 THIS MIXTURE. l I
10 Q. BUT THIS PERSON IS CONSISTENT IN ALL BUT TWO.

11 A. CORRECT. 1
12 Q. IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT GROUP OF 18 WHO
13 ARE CONSISTENT ON ALL BUT TWO ALLELES WHO YOU EXCLUDED? l
14 A. I'M NOT TOO SURE. I MEAN, LIKE I SAID BEFORE,
15 IT NOT ONLY MATTERS WHAT ALLELES ARE MISSING, BUT WHERE
16 THEY'RE MISSING. AND IT COULD BE THAT THERE'S PEOPLE IN
l
17
18
THE MIXTURE THAT ONLY DIFFER FROM THE DETECTED RESULTS
BY ONLY A COUPLE OF ALLELES. BUT, AGAIN, IT REALLY
, J
19 MATTERS WHERE THEY'RE MISSING IN OUR INTERPRETATION
20 GUIDELINES. l
21 Q. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT 16-3, THE SAME GENETIC
22 PROFILE AS COMPARED TO 16-3. WE'LL CALL IT VM. THIS
l
23
24
HYPOTHETICAL PERSON IS CONSISTENT AT ALL BUT ONE LOCUS.
WHAT WOULD YOUR OPINION OF INCLUSION BE ON THIS
l
25 ONE? l
26 A. I WOULD INCLUDE THIS PERSON IN THIS MIXTURE.
27 Q. AND DO YOU HAVE A PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION FOR l
28 THIS PERSON?
l
l
1098
1 A. YES. I WORKED THAT UP THIS MORNING.

2 Q. AND WHAT IS THAT?
3 A. IT WAS 1 IN 1 , 900 IN THE U. S . CAUCASIAN
4 POPULATION , 1 IN 39 , 000 IN THE AFRICAN - AMERICAN
5 POPULATION , AND 1 IN 410 IN THE HISPANIC POPULATION.

6 Q. THAT ' S PRETTY SIMILAR TO MR . DOMINGUEZ ,
7 WOULDN ' T YOU AGREE?
8 A. YES .
9 Q. LASTLY , MR. MONTPETIT , ALL THIS MATH ,
10 CALCULATIONS , INTERPRETATIONS -- WHEN ALL IS SAID AND
11 DONE, YOUR OPINION THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ IS INCLUDED IS
12 JUST THAT : IT ' S AN OP I NION, CORRECT?
13 A. IT ' S MY CONCLUSION BASED ON REVIEWING THE DATA,
14 YES .
15 Q. YOU CAN ' T SAY FOR CERTAIN THAT MR . DOMINGUEZ'S
16 DNA IS IN THE GLOVE, CAN YOU?
17 A. THAT ' S WHY IN OUR CONCLUSIONS I BASICALLY SAID
18 THAT HE ' S INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE DNA CONTRIBUTOR TO THE
19 MIXTURE .
20 Q. AND YOU USED THE WORD POSSIBLE BECAUSE YOU
21 DON ' T KNOW FOR SURE IF HE IS .
22 A. CORRECT .
23 MR . SPEREDELOZZI : NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR
24 HONOR.
25 THE COURT: MR . SPEREDELOZZI , THANK YOU.
26 MR . TROCHA , REDIRECT?
27 MR . TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
28 Ill
1099
2 BY MR . TROCHA:
3 Q. LET'S START WITH THIS SLIDE, MR. MONTPETIT.
4 THE NUMBERS WE'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT, 1 IN 410
5 AND 1 IN 450 , LET ME GIVE YOU SOME ADDITIONAL
6 INFORMATION WHICH MAY HELP YOU ILLUSTRATE A POINT .
7 THAT NUMBER IS WHAT EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY IN
8 A SPECIFIC ETHNIC GROUP THE PROBABILITY WOULD BE THAT
9 THEY 'D BE INCLUDED IN THAT MIXTURE , CORRECT?
10 A. CORRECT . IT'S BASICALLY BASED ON THE DNA TYPES
11 AND THE LEVELS THEY WERE DETECTED AT , THE CHANCES THAT
12 SOMEBODY JUST PICKED AT RANDOM FROM THE POPULATION WOULD
13 MATCH TO THE SAME DEGREE AS THE PERSON THAT HAS BEEN
14 INCLUDED .
15 Q. IS THAT THE SAME AS SAYING , "THAT PERSON, VM, "
16 IF THEY ARE , IN FACT, HISPANIC, "HAS A 1 IN 410 CHANCE
17 OF PUTTING HIS DNA IN THAT GLOVE "?
18 A. NO . IT ' S THE CHANCES OF JUST PICKING SOMEBODY
19 RANDOM FROM THE POPULATION THAT WOULD HAVE SOME
20 COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES THAT WOULD HAPPEN TO FIT IN
21 WITH THAT MIXTURE.
22 Q. IS THAT THE SAME CHANCE OF SAYING " VM HAS A 1
23 IN 410 CHANCE OF COMMITTING THE MURDER IN THIS CASE " ?
24 A. I WOULD NOT SAY THAT .
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: RELEVANCE.
26 THE COURT : OVERRULED.

27 THE WITNESS: I WOULD NOT SAY THAT, NO . AGAIN ,
28 IT ' S THE CHANCE OF PICKING SOMEBODY AT RANDOM FROM THE
)
r 1100
r 1 POPULATION THAT WOULD HAVE SOME COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES
r 2
3
THAT WOULD FIT IN WITH THAT MIXTURE.
BY MR. TROCHA:
i
I
4 Q. SO THESE PROBABILITIES AREN'T SAYING THAT OUT
r 5
6
OF EVERY 450 HISPANICS IN THE COUNTRY, 1 OUT OF EVERY
450 HAS AN EQUAL CHANCE OF COMMITTING THE MURDER IN THIS
r 7
8
CASE.
A. THAT IS NOT WHAT THE STATS MEAN, NO.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
r 11 Q. IF SOMEONE WERE TO SAY IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO
r 12
13
WITH THAT, THAT WOULD BE COMPLETELY INCORRECT.
A. THAT WOULD BE A MISREPRESENTATION OF WHAT THAT
r 14
15
STATISTIC IMPLIES.
Q. IT WOULD BE AN ABUSE OF THAT STATISTIC,
r 16
17
CORRECT?
A. I GUESS THAT WOULD BE FOR SOMEBODY'S INDIVIDUAL
r 18 OPINION TO DECIDE.
r 19
20
Q. LET'S GO BACK TO ACCOUNTING.
WHY CAN'T WE DO ACCOUNTING IN THIS CASE, AGAIN?
r 21
22
A. BASED ON THE NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS, THE
DIFFERENCE IN PEAK HEIGHT INTENSITIES, IT DOESN'T REALLY
r 23
24
LEND ITSELF TO THE ACCOUNTING TYPE PRINCIPLES.
Q. WHY NOT?
r 25
26
A. BECAUSE A LOT OF THE TOOLS THAT YOU USE FOR
SORT OF AN ACCOUNTING TYPE METHOD, WHICH WOULD BE PEAK
r 27 HEIGHT RATIOS, WHICH WE ALREADY DISCUSSED -- ANOTHER ONE
r 28 WOULD BE MIXTURE RATIO -- THOSE TYPES OF THINGS HAVE
r
1101
, ]
1 LESS MEANING IN THIS TYPE OF MIXTURE AND SO CAN'T REALLY

~
I
2 BE APPLIED.
3 Q. WOULD THIS BE MORE APPLICABLE TO THE SEX
4 ASSAULT CASE YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND THAT WAS BACK IN THE PEAK HEIGHT RATIO
7 DISCUSSION? l
8 A. YES.
9 Q. AND THAT WAS WITH A WOMAN GETS SEXUALLY l j
10 ASSAULTED, THEY DO A VAGINAL SWAB, THEY FIND HER DNA AND

11 THE PERPETRATOR'S DNA, CORRECT? l
12 A. THAT'S THE TYPE OF SCENARIO THAT WE WOULD USE
13
14
15
IT IN OUR LABORATORY.
Q. THAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE ONLY SITUATIONS IN
WHICH YOU COULD USE THE PEAK HEIGHT RATIO TO EXCLUDE
,
l
j
l
,
16 OBVIOUSLY THE VICTIM, CORRECT?
17 A. LIKE I SAID, IT WOULD BE THE ONLY SITUATION
18 THAT WE WOULD USE IT IN IN OUR LABORATORY. OTHER J
19 LABORATORIES MIGHT USE THAT METHOD FOR OTHER MIXTURES.

20 Q. THE REASON YOU CAN USE IT IN THAT KIND OF CASE
21 IS IT'S VERY CLEAR AS TO WHERE THE VICTIM'S DNA IS
22 COMING FROM IN THAT MIXTURE, CORRECT?
l
23
24
A. THAT'S THE REASON WE USE IT THAT WAY IN OUR
LABORATORY, IS BECAUSE WE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE
l
25 MIXTURE, GOING INTO IT. l
26 Q. SO WHEN COUNSEL WANTED YOU TO TAKE OUT PEOPLE'S
27 NUMBERS AND THEN RECALCULATE HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE IN l
28 THIS MIXTURE, THAT WOULD BE AN INCORRECT USE OF THAT
l
l
r 1102
r 1 PRINCIPLE.
r 2 A. LIKE I SAID, IT CAN BE DONE. HOWEVER, BECAUSE
r 3
4
OF THE NATURE OF THE MIXTURE, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT
WE WOULD TYPICALLY DO IN OUR LABORATORY.
r 5
6
Q. I MEAN, THE ASSUMPTION YOU HAVE TO MAKE IS
THESE PEOPLE ADMITTED TO WEARING THE GLOVES, RIGHT?
i 7
8
A. THE ASSUMPTION THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE IS THAT
THEIR DNA IS PRESENT THERE, AND WE'RE NOT WILLING TO

r
I
9 MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION IN OUR LABORATORY.
r
10 Q. WHY NOT?
11 A. BECAUSE OF THE CHANCE THAT WE WOULD BE WRONG.
r 12
13
Q. IS THAT THE SAME REASON WHY THE LIKELIHOOD
RATIO WAS NOT USED BY YOUR LABORATORY EITHER?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
IN THESE TYPE OF SITUATIONS, YES.
LET'S GET BACK TO MR. BUDOWLE.
r 16
17
IS MR. BUDOWLE THE BE-ALL AND END-ALL OF
FORENSICS?
r 18 A. DR. BUDOWLE IS A WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTIST IN
19 FORENSICS.
r 20 Q. HE HAS HIS OPINIONS ON HOW TO INTERPRET
r 21
22
MIXTURES, CORRECT?
A. HE DOES.
r 23
24
Q. YOUR LAB INTERPRETS MIXTURES A LITTLE BIT
DIFFERENTLY THAN HE WOULD WANT TO.
r 25 A.
Q.
I BELIEVE THAT IS A FAIR STATEMENT.
IS YOUR LAB'S PRACTICE A COMMON AND ACCEPTED

26
r 27 PRACTICE WITHIN THE DNA FORENSIC COMMUNITY?
r 28 A. THERE'S OTHER LABS IN THE COUNTRY THAT WOULD
r
1103
1 INTERPRET IT MUCH LIKE WE ARE.

2 Q. ARE YOU GUYS ROGUE IN SOME WAY, RUNNING AROUND
3 DOING THINGS ON YOUR OWN THAT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE
4 SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY DISAGREES WITH?
6 Q. MR. BUDOWLE ALSO IN THAT ARTICLE SUGGESTS MANY
7 OTHER THINGS ON HOW FORENSIC DNA SHOULD BE APPLIED,
l
8
9
CORRECT?
A. YES, HE DOES.
, \
10 Q. HOW DOES YOUR LAB PROCEDURES COMPARE WITH HIS

11 BELIEFS IN THOSE AREAS?
12 A. I MEAN, A LOT OF THE ARTICLE THAT HE WROTE HAS
13 TO DO WITH HOW TO DEFINE YOUR THRESHOLDS, HOW TO GO
1
14
15
ABOUT SETTING YOUR THRESHOLDS.
THRESHOLDS.
WE HAVE THOSE
AND I WOULD SAY THAT ON A LOT OF THE
l
l
,
16 ARTICLE THAT HE AUTHORED, WE'RE IN LINE WITH THINGS THAT
17 HE STATES.
18 Q. LET ME BRING YOU BACK TO PAGE 30 OF THIS l
19 EXHIBIT. DO YOU REMEMBER THE DISCUSSION THIS MORNING,

20 MR. MONTPETIT, ABOUT SHARED ALLELES AND STRONG ALLELES l
21 IN TERMS OF MR. DOMINGUEZ?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WE SEE SOME BLUE NUMBERS UP HERE, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
l
25 Q. THAT'S NOT ALL OF THE SHARED ALLELES THAT l
26 MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS WITH THE STRONG RESULTS, ARE THEY?
27 A. I BELIEVE THEY WERE -- CAN YOU ASK THAT l
28 QUESTION AGAIN?
l
l
r 1104
r. 1 Q. SURE. YOU WERE ASKED IF THESE BLUE NUMBERS
r 2 WERE THE PLACES WHERE MR. DOMINGUEZ SHOWED UP ON THE
r 3
4
STRONG LINE OF THE RESULTS, CORRECT?
A. I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE QUESTION, YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
13 DOES SHOW UP, CORRECT?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
29.2 DOES SHOW UP, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
AS WELL AS 32.2.
YES.
r 11 Q. 11 SHOWS UP.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
THAT'S NOT IN BLUE, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
11 AND 12 IN BLUE SHOW UP IN CSF, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
15 SHOWS UP.
j 18 A. YES.
t
r 19
20
Q.
A.
6 SHOWS UP.
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
12 SHOWS UP.
YES.
r 23
24
Q. EXCEPT THESE TWO IN BLACK, THEY ALSO SHOW UP
TOO, CORRECT, UNDER THE D13?
r 25 A. YES, THEY DO.
r 26 Q. 17 SHOWS UP UNDER VWA.
27 A. YES.
28 Q. 8 SHOWS UP IN TPOX.
i
r
~ I
1105
I !
1 A. YES.
~I
,
2 Q. AND 11 SHOWS UP IN D5S, CORRECT? !
3 A. YES.
l
4 Q. SO ABOUT HALF OF THEM ARE IN BLUE THAT ARE
5 ACTUALLY IN THE STRONG LINE. ~
l
j
6 A. THERE ARE DEFINITELY TYPES IN BLACK THAT ARE
7 ALSO PART OF ALLELES THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED LIKELY
l
8
9
FROM MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS.
Q. IS DNA JUST ME GOING UP AND COUNTING WHICH
, !
10 NUMBERS APPEAR AND WHICH DON'T?

11 A. NO. THE INTERPRETATION IS A LITTLE MORE
12 INVOLVED THAN JUST SEEING WHAT NUMBERS ARE THERE AND
13 WHETHER THE NUMBERS MATCH. l
14
15
Q.
IT, RIGHT?
I MEAN, IF THAT WERE THE CASE, ANYONE COULD DO
l
16 A. I GUESS THAT'S THE IMPLICATION, YES.
l
17
18
Q. IF IT'S JUST LOOKING AT A WHITE PIECE OF PAPER
AND COUNTING NUMBERS, DOES ONE NEED A DEGREE TO BE ABLE
, j
19 TO DO THAT?
20 A. NO. AND I MEAN WE GO THROUGH PRETTY EXTENSIVE l
21 TRAINING IN OUR LABORATORY.
22 Q. TELL US HOW THEN YOU WOULD INCLUDE OR EXCLUDE
l
23
24
SOMEBODY FROM A MIXTURE.
A. I BELIEVE I'VE ALREADY KIND OF GONE OVER THAT.
1
25 IN TERMS OF MIXTURES, THE FIRST THING WE DO IS TO l
26 EVALUATE THE PROFILE AS A WHOLE, TRYING TO DETERMINE
27 WHETHER THERE IS ANY SORT OF DEGRADATION OR INHIBITION l
28 LIKELY.
~
J
l
r 1106
r 1 WE LOOK FOR THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS
r 2 TO THAT SAMPLE. WE ACTUALLY TRY AND SEPARATE THE DNA
r 3
4
TYPES INTO DNA TYPES THAT HAD TO COME FROM MINOR
CONTRIBUTORS TO THE MIXTURE VERSUS DNA TYPES THAT WERE
r 5
6
LIKELY FROM MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS TO THE MIXTURE. AND THEN
ONCE WE HAVE THOSE DIFFERENT SETS OF INFORMATION, WE CAN
r 7
8
MAKE COMPARISONS.
AND IF SOMEBODY IS EXCLUDED FROM OR IF SOMEBODY
r 9
10
HAS A COMBINATION OF DNA TYPES THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER
MAJOR, THEY WOULD BE INCLUDED AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR.
r 11 IF THERE WERE MISSING ALLELES THAT WERE CONSIDERED TO BE
r 12
13
FROM MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS, THEY WOULD BE EXCLUDED AS MAJOR
CONTRIBUTORS, AND THEN WE WOULD LOOK TO SEE IF WHETHER
r 14
15
THERE ARE POTENTIAL MINOR CONTRIBUTORS.
AND WHEN WE DO THE ASSESSMENT FOR MINOR
r 16
17
CONTRIBUTORS, WE BASE IT OFF THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE DNA
MARKERS WITH THE HIGHEST INTENSITY ARE WHERE YOU ARE
r 18
19
MOST LIKELY TO SEE YOUR MINOR CONTRIBUTORS SHOWING UP.
SO BASED ON THAT RANKING SYSTEM OF THE DNA
r 20 MARKERS, WE GO THROUGH AND DETERMINE WHETHER THE
r 21
22
INDIVIDUALS IN QUESTION MATCH AT THOSE MARKERS OR
WHETHER THERE'S INCONSISTENCIES, AND THEN WE FURTHER
r 23
24
ASSESS WHETHER THOSE INCONSISTENCIES ARE SCIENTIFICALLY
JUSTIFIABLE AND HAVE THEM STILL BE IN THERE. SO IT'S A
r 25 PRETTY INVOLVED PROCESS.
r 26
27
Q. SO THIS GETS INTO NOT ONLY WHAT IS THERE, BUT
WHERE IS IT UPON THE DNA PROFILE?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
~
i
1107
"'" r
1 Q. IS DNA, IN TERMS OF INTERPRETING MIXTURES,

2 ANYTHING LIKE PLAYING BINGO OR PLAYING THE LOTTERY?
3 A. I GUESS I WOULD SAY NO, ALTHOUGH THE
4
5
CALCULATIONS THAT I'VE PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED ARE A LOT
LIKE THE CALCULATIONS FOR CALCULATING WHAT YOUR CHANCES ,
6
7
ARE OF WINNING THE LOTTERY.
Q. THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE
,
8 TWO, CORRECT?
,
,
9 A. CORRECT. I
I
10 Q. I MEAN, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF CHURNING A BALL
,
I
11 AND HAVING NUMBERS FALL OUT, CORRECT? i
12 A. NO, IT'S DEFINITELY NOT LIKE THAT.

13
14
Q.
MORNING.
YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT REPRODUCIBILITY THIS
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT? , J
15
16
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING THAT YOU DID VALIDATION
, j
1
17 STUDIES.
18 HOW DO THE VALIDATION STUDIES COME INTO YOUR l
19 RESULTS AND YOUR EVENTUAL OPINION?
20 A. OUR VALIDATION STUDIES ARE DONE TO ESSENTIALLY l
21 GIVE US EXPERIENCE WITH THE DNA TESTING KIT. WE USE THE
22 INFORMATION THERE TO FORMULATE OUR THRESHOLDS, OUR
l
23
24
DETECTION THRESHOLDS, OUR STOCHASTIC THRESHOLDS.
ALSO USE THE INFORMATION THAT WE GAIN FROM THOSE
WE
l
25 VALIDATION STUDIES TO HELP FORMULATE OUR INTERPRETATION l
26 GUIDELINES.
27 AND SO IT'S A PRETTY EXTENSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK l
28 THAT GOES INTO THESE VALIDATION STUDIES. AND ALL OF
l
l
r 1108
r 1 THOSE VALIDATION STUDIES END UP GIVING US THE EXPERIENCE
r 2 AND CONFIDENCE AND KNOWLEDGE THAT WE USE TO INTERPRET
r 3
4
THE DNA PROFILES.
Q. AND THESE WERE DONE IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR
r 5
6
TESTS NOT JUST FOR THE GLOVES, BUT FOR ALL OF THE OTHER
EVIDENCE AS WELL?
r 7
8
A. WELL, THE VALIDATION STUDIES SORT OF PREDATE
USING THE KIT IN ANY CASEWORK AT ALL. WE DON'T JUST
r 9
10
LAUNCH INTO USING A KIT IN DNA CASEWORK. WE HAVE TO
BASICALLY PERFORM THE STUDIES ON IT SO THAT WE ARE
r 11 INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH THE KIT AND HOW IT WORKS SUCH
r
(
12 THAT WHEN WE DO APPLY IT TO CASEWORK, WE HAVE CONFIDENCE
13 IN THE RESULTS THAT WE GET.
r 14
15
Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TESTING ITSELF,
MR. MONTPETIT. IN TERMS OF THE TESTING, THERE WAS MORE
r 16
17
THAN ONE TEST DONE ON THESE GLOVES, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. IT WASN'T JUST YOU TAKING ONE SWAB AND TESTING

19 IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN, CORRECT?
r 20 A. NO. THERE WAS -- THE SWAB OF THE INSIDE OF THE
r 21
22
GLOVE ON ITEM 16 WAS TESTED TWICE FROM THE FIRST SWAB,
AND THEN A SECOND SWAB WAS TAKEN AND THAT WAS ALSO
r 23
24
TESTED.
Q. YOU SEE EXHIBIT DD ON THE TELEVISION BEHIND YOU
r 25
26
ILLUSTRATING THIS IS THE SECOND TEST OF THAT FIRST SWAB,
CORRECT?
L 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. WHEN WE MOVE ON TO EE, WOULD THIS BE A RESULT
r
~I
,
I
1109
i
!
1 OF THAT TEST?
2 A. THAT'S THE FIRST PAGE OF THE REPORT THAT LISTS
3 THE RESULTS OF THAT TEST.

4 Q. LET ME SKIP AHEAD TO P.
5 THIS WAS THE REQUEST FOR THE SECOND TEST,
6 CORRECT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES, THE SECOND SWABBING OF THE GLOVES.
SECOND INDEPENDENT TEST ALTOGETHER.
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. WE SAW EXHIBIT 0, AND YOU SAID THESE ARE THE
11 NOTES ABOUT THE CONVERSATION WE HAD ABOUT THE SECOND l
12 TEST, CORRECT?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q. YET WE DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO HEAR THOSE NOTES.
DO YOU SEE THEM ON THE BOARD?
l
16 A. YES, I DO. 1 J
17 Q. IF I WERE TO READ THEM OUT LOUD, WOULD YOU
l
18
19
20
AGREE THAT I'M READING THEM VERBATIM?
WRONG, YOU'LL CORRECT ME?
A.
IF I GET IT
IF YOU GET IT WRONG, I'LL CORRECT YOU.

, J
21 Q. SO ON JANUARY 21ST OF THIS YEAR, YOU AND I

22 TALKED. CONTENT OF THE COMMUNICATION: "WE DISCUSSED
l
23
24
THE CASE, AND THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS RELEASED FROM
IMPOUND AT THE COURTHOUSE WAS TRANSFERRED TO ME.
l
25 "HE," BEING MR. TROCHA, "INDICATED THAT THE l
26 GLOVES ARE NOT GOING TO BE RETESTED BY THE DEFENSE AND
27 THAT WE COULD CUT THEM OPEN IF IT EASED EXAMINATION. l
28 AFTER TESTING IS COMPLETE, HE," BEING MR. TROCHA,
l
l
r 1110
r 1 "INDICATED I," YOU, MR. MONTPETIT, "COULD IMPOUND THEM
r 2 UNDER THE ORIGINAL PROPERTY TAG" -- "THEIR ORIGINAL
r
3 PROPERTY TAG DOWNSTAIRS."
4 DOES THAT ACCURATELY RELATE WHAT WE SPOKE
r 5
6
ABOUT?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. YOU SPOKE ABOUT IT THIS MORNING, AND I THINK
YESTERDAY, ABOUT PRESERVATION OF THE EVIDENCE.
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q. THAT'S SO IT GIVES A DEFENSE ATTORNEY A CHANCE
TO PROPERLY RETEST THE EVIDENCE IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE,
r 12
13
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. CLEARLY COMMUNICATED THAT THE DEFENSE WAS NOT
INTERESTED IN RETESTING THIS, CORRECT?
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
HEARSAY.
r 18 THE WITNESS: THAT WAS THE INDICATION THAT I
r 19
20
WAS GIVEN.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 21
22
Q. THAT WAS THE SOLE REASON YOU WERE GIVEN THE
GO-AHEAD TO OPEN UP THESE GLOVES.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DOING THAT, YOU WERE ABLE TO GAIN ACCESS TO

[ 25 MORE SENSITIVE, DEEPER AREAS WITHIN THE GLOVES; IS THAT
26 CORRECT?
r 27 A. IT DEFINITELY EASED MY ACCESS TO SWABBING THE
r- 28 FINGER AREAS.
r
IW)
I
1111
1 Q. YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO SHOVE A SWAB ALL THE WAY IN

2 AND HOPE THAT YOU GOT TO THE END AND BRING IT OUT THAT
3 YOU GOT THE RIGHT PLACE.
4
6
A.
Q.
IT DEFINITELY OPENED UP ACCESS.
AND YOU WEREN'T HIDING ANYTHING.
PICTURES OF IT AS YOU WENT ALONG.
YOU TOOK , !
7 A. ABSOLUTELY.
.l
8
9
Q.
A.
CAN YOU GET DNA FROM THE FINGERTIPS OF GLOVES?
YES.
, J
10 Q. WHY IS THAT?
11 A. FOR THE SAME REASON THAT YOU CAN GET DNA FROM l
12 THE PALM AREA. IT'S AN AREA OF THE GLOVES THAT HAS
13 CONTACT WITH THE HANDS. l
14
15
Q. AND THESE ARE THE PARTS OF THE GLOVES THAT BEND
THE MOST WITH THE FINGERS, CORRECT?
l
16
17
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AS WOULD BE THE KNUCKLES HAVING CONSTANT
l
18 CONTACT WITH THE GLOVES, CORRECT? l
19 A. ABSOLUTELY.
20 Q. YOU WERE ALSO ASKED ABOUT SOME SORT OF STUDY l
21 ABOUT PORES IN GLOVES TOO, CORRECT?
22 A. YES. YOU FORWARDED ME AN E-MAIL THAT HAD AN
l
23
24
ARTICLE THAT HAD TO DO WITH LEATHER AND -- SYNTHETIC
LEATHERS AND REAL LEATHERS AND PORE SIZE.
l
25 Q. THAT WAS THE STUDY THAT COUNSEL REFERRED THAT l
26 HE GAVE TO ME TO GIVE TO YOU.
27 A. THAT'S WHAT YOU INDICATED, YES. l
28 Q. ARE YOU A SCIENTIST IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH
l
l
r 1112
r
1 LEATHER GLOVES AND SUBSTRATES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
r 2 A. I BELIEVE THE ARTICLE WAS FROM A JOURNAL OF
3 POLYMER SCIENCE, AND I WOULD NOT CONSIDER MYSELF A

r 4 POLYMER SCIENTIST.
r 5
6
Q. JUST SO THE JURY KNOWS WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT, WHAT IS THE BASIC GIST OF THIS ARTICLE THAT WAS
[ 7 READ?
8 A. ESSENTIALLY IT WAS A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS IN
r 9
10
INDIA THAT WERE DOING A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT TESTS ON
SYNTHETIC LEATHERS TO SEE WHAT THE CHARACTERISTICS WERE
r 11 AND HOW THEY RELATED TO REAL LEATHER. I ASSUME THAT THE
12 PURPOSE IS TO GATHER AS MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT SYNTHETIC

r 13 PRODUCTS TO MAKE THEM AS LEATHER-LIKE AS POSSIBLE.
r 14
15
Q. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT BLOOD
OR BLOOD PLATELETS CAN PASS THROUGH LEATHER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
IT DISCUSSED TWO TYPES OF LEATHER, CORRECT?
r 18
19
A. I BELIEVE IT DISCUSSED A SYNTHETIC LEATHER AND
AN ACTUAL -- I BELIEVE IT WAS SHEEPSKIN LEATHER.

r 20 Q. SHEEPSKIN OR NAPPA, N-A-P-P-A?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
IN TERMS OF PART OF THIS ARTICLE, IT TALKED
[ 23 ABOUT PORE SIZES OF THESE TWO TYPES OF LEATHER, CORRECT?
24 A. YES, IT DID.
r 25
26
Q. YOU TOLD US EARLIER THIS MORNING THAT THE WHITE
BLOOD CELL IS THE CELL THAT CARRIES THE DNA IN BLOOD,
r 27 CORRECT?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
1113
,., I
J
1 Q. HOW BIG IS THE BIGGEST WHITE BLOOD CELL?
2 A. I BELIEVE THEY RANGE IN SIZE FROM ABOUT 6

3 MICRONS TO 21 MICRONS. ,.,
(
4 Q. WHAT IS A MICRON? l
A. IT IS ONE-MILLIONTH OF A METER.
5
6 Q. THE PORE SIZES THAT YOU SAW IN THIS ARTICLE
1
7
8
THAT WERE FORWARDED TO YOU BY THE DEFENSE, DID THEY GIVE
YOU THE PORE SIZES OF SYNTHETIC LEATHER?
.l
9 A. YES, THEY DID. l
10 Q. WHAT WAS IT?
11 A. I'D HAVE TO REFER TO THE ACTUAL PAPER. 1
12 Q. DO YOU HAVE IT WITH YOU?
13 A. YES, I DO. l
14
15
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
YOU MAY.
THANK YOU.
l
16
17
THE WITNESS: THEY ACTUALLY QUOTE PORE SIZES
FOR A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF LEATHER. IN ONE AREA
l
18 OF THE PAPER, THEY SAY THAT THE PORE SIZES IN NATURAL 1
19 LEATHERS HAVE BETWEEN 150 MICRONS AND I GUESS IT WOULD
20 BE 3,000 MICRONS; AND THEN IN ANOTHER AREA THEY ALSO SAY l
21 THAT SYNTHETIC LEATHER HAS PORES ON THE SURFACE THAT
22 RANGE FROM 20 MICRONS TO 40 MICRONS.
l
23
24
AND THEN IN ANOTHER AREA THEY SHOW THAT THE
SHEEP NAPPA LEATHER HAS PORE SIZES THAT RANGE FROM 5 TO
l
25 20 MICRONS AND THAT ARE CONTINUOUS THROUGH THE LEATHER. l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. SO TO PUT IT IN NUMBERS THAT ARE MORE l
28 UNDERSTANDABLE, IF A WHITE BLOOD CELL IS 17 MICRONS
l
l
r
r 1 IF WE WERE TO TAKE IT OUT TO A METER, THAT WOULD BE 17
1114
r 2 METERS WIDE, CORRECT, MULTIPLIED BY A MILLION?

3 A. IF YOU MULTIPLE BY A MILLION, YES.
r 4 Q. AND THESE PORES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN
5
r 6
THESE GLOVES RANGE FROM 20 MICRONS UP TO 3,000 MICRONS?
A. IN NATURAL LEATHER, YES.
[ 7 Q. AND IN SYNTHETIC LEATHER?

8 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS LESS THAN THAT, 20 TO 40.
r 9
10
Q. LET'S JUST GO WITH 20 TO 40 ON SYNTHETIC
LEATHER BEING THE SMALLER OF THE TWO. IF WE WERE TO
r 11 MULTIPLY THAT BY A MILLION, THOSE PORES WOULD BE EITHER
12 20 METERS WIDE TO 40 METERS WIDE, CORRECT?
r 13 A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. CAN A THING 17 METERS WIDE FIT THROUGH A HOLE
20 METERS WIDE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I WOULD IMAGINE IT COULD, YES.
WERE YOU ABLE TO FIGURE THAT OUT WITHOUT
r 18 CONDUCTING TESTS UPON THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE?
19 A. YEAH. I JUST READ THE ARTICLE AND COMPARED IT
c 20 TO THE SIZE THAT I KNEW THAT WHITE BLOOD CELLS WERE.
r 21
22
Q. WE ALSO HEARD SOME QUESTIONING THIS MORNING
ABOUT A REQUEST TO COMPARE EXHIBIT DO TO COMPARE THE DNA
r 23
24
PROFILE FOUND ON BEER BOTTLE NO. 8 TO THE GLOVES,
CORRECT?
r 25 A. CORRECT.
26 Q. YOU MENTIONED YESTERDAY IN TERMS OF CODIS HITS
c 27 THAT YOU HAVE TO VERIFY A CODIS HIT BY GETTING THAT
r 28 INDIVIDUAL'S DNA, CORRECT?
r
1115
~
I
J
1
2
3
4
Q. WHAT DOES YOUR LAB DO WITH CODIS HITS BEFORE
THEY ARE VERIFIED WITH THE SWAB FROM THE ACTUAL PERSON?
A. WHEN WE GET INFORMED OF A CODIS MATCH THROUGH
,
THE DATABASE, WE'LL ACTUALLY WRITE A REPORT INDICATING
1
,
5
6 THAT WE HAVE A MATCH AND TO WHOM THAT EVIDENCE MATCHED
TO, AND WE WILL SEND THAT OFF TO THE INVESTIGATOR IN
,
7
J
8 QUESTION.
9 Q. WHEN YOU GET THAT MATCH IN YOUR LAB, THOUGH, i
10 PRIOR TO CONFIRMING IT, DO YOU THEN APPLY A NAME TO THAT
11 SAMPLE? l
12 A. WE DO NOT GENERALLY APPLY A NAME TO THE SAMPLE
13 UNTIL WE ACTUALLY HAVE A SAMPLE FROM THE INDIVIDUAL. l
Q. SO IN THIS SITUATION WHEN YOU GET A CODIS HIT
14
15 ON BEER BOTTLE NO. 8 TO FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, IS THE
l
l
,
16 PROFILE THAT'S BEEN IDENTIFIED ON THAT BEER BOTTLE NAMED
17 FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ OR IS IT KEPT AS AN UNKNOWN DNA
18 PROFILE?
19 A. IT WOULD BE KEPT AS AN UNKNOWN DNA PROFILE
20 UNTIL SUCH TIME AS WE HAD A REFERENCE SAMPLE FROM l
21 MR. DOMINGUEZ FOR COMPARISON.
22 Q. AT THE TIME YOU RECEIVED THIS REQUEST IN
l
23
24
EXHIBIT DO, DID YOU CONFIRM THE CODIS HIT FROM FS8?
A. NO, I HAD NOT.
l
25 Q. SO THERE WASN'T A REFERENCE SAMPLE FROM l
26 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
27 A. NOT AT THAT TIME, NO. l
28 Q. SO THE ONLY TWO THINGS TO COMPARE TO THE
l
l
r 1116
[
1 MIXTURE IN THE GLOVES WAS THE PROFILE FOUND ON BEER
r 2 BOTTLE NO. 8.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, MR. MONTPETIT, YOU
r 5
6
SPENT THE LAST ALMOST EIGHT HOURS AT THIS POINT TALKING
ABOUT COMPARING DNA PROFILES TO OBJECTS FOUND EITHER AT
r 7
8
A CRIME SCENE OR OTHER LOCATIONS; IS THAT CORRECT?
r
l
9 Q. IS THERE ANYTHING IMPROPER ABOUT DOING THAT?
10 A. NO. THAT'S PART OF WHAT WE DO.
[ 11 Q. ISN'T THAT ONE OF THE MAJOR THINGS THAT YOU DO
12 DO?
[ 13 A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU'RE BEING PUSHED IN SOME
WAY TO MAKE OPINIONS THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN?
r
l_
16 A. NO.
17 Q. DO YOU FEEL SEEDY KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW THE
r 18 NAMES OF CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO GAVE UP THEIR DNA PROFILES
r 19
20
TO BE EXAMINED?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
WHY DON'T I FEEL SEEDY KNOWING THE NAMES OF
r 23
24
PEOPLE?
Q. CORRECT.
r 25
26
A.
PEOPLE ARE.
BECAUSE REALLY I HAVE NO IDEA WHO ANY OF THESE
AND I DO TESTING ON HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS
[ 27 OF CASES AND WORK HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PROFILES.
r 28 THE COMPARISON IS JUST WHAT I DO.
r
1117
, J
1
1
2
Q. OTHERWISE, YOU WOULD BE COMING TO COURT AND
TESTIFYING ABOUT RANDOM NUMBERS, CORRECT?
, _!
3 A. ABSOLUTELY.
4 Q. PRIOR TO YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE IN THE l
LAST HEARING, HAD YOU EVER EVEN SEEN FLORENCIO
5
6 DOMINGUEZ?
l
.l
,
7 A. NO.
8 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN VICTOR RAMOS?
9 A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. 1
10 Q. HOW ABOUT JOSUE GUTIERREZ?

11 A. NO. l
12 Q. MOISES LOPEZ?
13 A. NO. l
14
15
Q. DO THESE NAMES HAVE ANY RELEVANCE TO YOU OTHER
THAN THEY ARE ATTACHED TO CERTAIN DNA PROFILES?
l
16 A. NO. 1 j
17 Q. LASTLY, MR. MONTPETIT, YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT

18 NUMBERS, AND IF YOU WERE TO KEEP SOME NUMBERS OUT, PUT 1
19 SOME NUMBERS IN, ALL IN MAKING YOUR STATISTICAL
20 CONCLUSIONS. DO YOU RECALL THOSE QUESTIONS? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IF YOU WERE TO TAKE NUMBERS OUT WHEN EXPLAINING
l
23
24
THE LIKELIHOOD OF SOMEBODY COMING INTO THE MIXTURE
LET'S MOVE AHEAD TO A RELEVANT MIXTURE, 16-3.
1
25 IF YOU WERE TO TAKE NUMBERS OUT, WOULDN'T THAT l
26 MEAN ANYONE WHO IS INCLUDED WOULD HAVE A HIGHER NUMBER?
l
27
28
A.
Q.
YES.
SUCH AS BEYOND 1 IN 450? , 1
l
r 1118
[
1 A. YES. IF DNA TESTS WERE REMOVED FROM THE
L 2 MIXTURE, THEN THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS WOULD INDICATE
r 3
4
A -- IT WOULD BE MORE RARE FOR PEOPLE TO MATCH.
Q. SO YOUR INCLUSION OF WEAKER NUMBERS LOWERS THE
r 5
6
PROBABILITY, CORRECT?
A. INCLUSION OF MORE NUMBERS WOULD TEND TO LOWER
r 7
8
THE PROBABILITY. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THE STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS THAT WE TRY AND ATTACH TO ANY INCLUSION IS AN
r 9
10
ATTEMPT TO EXPRESS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT MATCH.
r
Q. SO YOUR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS IS CONSERVATIVE,
11 AS IT INCLUDES THE MOST NUMBERS AS IT CAN?
r 12
13
A. WE TRY TO BE CONSERVATIVE WHEN WE INTERPRET
MIXTURES AND PERFORM OUR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
r 14
15
Q. WHEN YOU WERE GETTING THESE REQUESTS FROM MY
OFFICE AND FROM THE DETECTIVES INVOLVED IN THIS CASE,
r 16
17
DID ANY OF THEM TELL YOU THAT THEY WANTED THE STATISTICS
TO BE IN THE SEPTILLION RANGE?
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q. DID ANY OF THEM TELL YOU THEY WANTED
MR. DOMINGUEZ'S NUMBERS TO BE MORE THAN 1 IN 450?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
DID ANY OF THEM TELL YOU TO TAKE OUT OTHER DNA
r 23
24
PROFILES BECAUSE WE ALREADY KNOW MOISES LOPEZ IS THE
VICTIM IN THIS CASE?

[ 25 A. NO.
Q. WHY NOT?
r
26
r 28 SPECULATION.
r
1119
l
l
1 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. HOW WOULD HE KNOW?
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. SO YOUR ANALYSIS AND YOUR CONCLUSIONS AND YOUR l
5 OPINIONS, THEY'RE BASED ON JUST WHAT YOU HAD BEFORE YOU,
1
' j
6 CORRECT?
7
8
A. LIKE I SAID, WE TRY AND REMAIN UNBIASED.
ANY CONCLUSIONS THAT I GENERATE IS BASED ON A REVIEW OF
AND
l
9 THE DATA. AND, AGAIN, IT GOES THROUGH THE TECHNICAL l
10 REVIEW PROCESS AND ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW PROCESS.
11 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MR. MONTPETIT. NOTHING l
12 FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
13 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WHY DON'T WE l
14
15
TAKE THE MID-AFTERNOON RECESS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE 10 MINUTES.
l
16
17
THE COURT:
ANYBODY LIKE A BREAK?
DO YOU WANT TO PRESS ON OR WOULD
l
18 THE JURY: PRESS ON. l
19 THE COURT: PRESS ON IT IS, THEN,
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI. THANK YOU. l
l
23
24
Q. LET ME FIND SLIDE 30, MR. MONTPETIT. LET ME
l
25 GO UP TO IT SO I SEE IT. l
26 YES, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS ON REDIRECT.
27 THESE BLUE NUMBERS DON'T REPRESENT WHERE FLORENCIO l
28 DOMINGUEZ MATCHES UP WITH THE MAJOR ALLELES IN 16-3.
l
l
[
1120
r 1 THAT'S CLEAR, RIGHT?

[ 2 A. THE BLUE NUMBERS -- I'M SORRY. CAN YOU REPEAT
3 THAT QUESTION?
c 4 Q. YES. THE BLUE NUMBERS, IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY'RE
r 5
6
NOT MATCHING UP WITH ALL OF THE MAJOR ALLELES WHERE
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ MATCHES UP WITH ALL THE MAJOR
r 7
8
ALLELES IN 16-3.
RIGHT?
THAT'S AN INCORRECT ASSUMPTION,
r 9 A. THE BLUE NUMBERS ARE MATCHING UP WITH ALLELES
r 10
11
12
THAT HAPPEN TO BE PART OF THE MAJOR ALLELES THAT ARE IN
THAT TOP ROW.
Q. AREN'T THE BLUE ALLELES MATCHING UP WHERE
c 13 MOISES LOPEZ AND FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ SHARE ALLELES?
r 14
15
A. WELL, IF THAT WERE THE CASE, MR. DOMINGUEZ AND
MR. LOPEZ DID NOT SHARE 29.2 AT D21.
L 16
17
Q.
29.2.
THIS ONE. SO THIS ONE APPEARS TO BE A TYPO,
r 18 OTHER THAN THAT, IS THAT THE CASE?
r 19
20
A.
WITH --
YES. THEY APPEAR TO BE ALLELES THAT HE SHARES
r 21
22
Q.
A.
MOISES LOPEZ?
-- MOISES LOPEZ.
r 23
24
Q. AND JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, ATTORNEYS MAKE
MISTAKES WHEN THEY MAKE EXHIBITS. 29.2 SHOULDN'T BE
r 25 BLUE, RIGHT?
r
26 A. BASED ON THAT, NO, THE 32.2 SHOULD BE BLUE.
27 Q. OKAY. SO WE GOT THEM REVERSED ON D21S11.
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
1121
1
l
1 Q. NOBODY IS PERFECT, RIGHT?
2 OKAY. AS FAR AS EXHIBIT EE, YOU WERE ASKED TO l
3 COMPARE ITEM 16 WITH FS8A, RIGHT?
4 A. CORRECT. l
Q. YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ WAS AT
5
6 THAT TIME.
1
7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
I MEAN, YOU KNEW BECAUSE YOU GOT A CODIS HIT
l
9 THAT FS8A COULD POTENTIALLY BE FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. 1
10 A. THE INDICATION THAT I HAD BASED WAS BASED ON
11 THE CODIS HIT THAT THE PERSON WHOSE DNA PROFILE WAS ON l
12 FS8A WAS CALLED FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
13 Q. AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO THIS PERSON IS. l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
BUT YOU WERE ASKED TO COMPARE SPECIFICALLY FS8A
l
16
17
TO ITEM 16.
A. CORRECT.
l
18 Q. YOU WERE NOT SPECIFICALLY ASKED TO COMPARE ITEM l
19 FS13, RIGHT?
20 A. CORRECT. 1
21 Q. YOU WEREN'T ASKED TO SPECIFICALLY COMPARE FS12.
22 A. NO.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
JUST FS8, RIGHT?
THAT IS CORRECT.
l
25 Q. LASTLY, MR. BUDOWLE -- YOU SAID HE'S WELL l
26 RESPECTED.
27 A. DR. BUDOWLE, YES. l
28 Q. DR. BUDOWLE. HE'S A DOCTOR.
l
l
[
1122
r 1 A. PH.D.
[ 2 Q. YOU SAID THAT MOST OF YOUR PROCEDURES, STATS
3 AND THRESHOLDS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE ACTUALLY DO
r 4 FOLLOW MR. BUDOWLE'S ADVICE.
5 A. YES.
L 6 Q. THIS ARTICLE THAT HE WROTE IS A PEER-REVIEWED
r 7
8
SCIENTIFIC ARTICLE.
A. CORRECT.
r 9 Q. THE ONLY -- OR NOT THE ONLY, BUT EVEN THOUGH
r
10 MOST OF YOUR PROCEDURES LINE UP WITH THIS, THE ONE THAT
11 DOESN'T IS HOW YOU DEAL WITH MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
12 THRESHOLD.
r 13 A. HOW WE DEAL WITH TYPES BELOW THE STOCHASTIC
r 14
15
THRESHOLD, YES.
Q. AND YOU USE A DIFFERENT WAY OR A DIFFERENT
L 16 ANALYSIS FOR THAT.

17 A. WE HAVE A DIFFERENT METHOD OF DEALING WITH
r 18 TYPES BELOW THE STOCHASTIC THRESHOLD.

19 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WHAT SCIENTIFICALLY
r 20 PEER-REVIEWED JOURNAL ARTICLE ARE YOUR POLICIES BASED
r 21
22
ON?
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE ARE NOT PEER-REVIEWED
c 23
24
JOURNAL ARTICLES THAT TALK ABOUT OUR SPECIFIC
INTERPRETATION GUIDELINES.
r 25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
THANK YOU. IS THERE REDIRECT?
JUST TWO QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
r 28 Ill
r
1123
1
l
1 ~RITIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PEER-REVIEWED ARTICLE
4 TO OPERATE A CRIME LAB IN AMERICA? l
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
l
7
8
THE WITNESS:
PAPER TO RUN A LAB?
DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE PUBLISHED A
1
9 BY MR. TROCHA: l
10 Q. SURE.
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEONE ELSE WRITE A
13 PEER-REVIEWED ARTICLE ABOUT THE PROCEDURES IN YOUR LAB l
14
15
IN ORDER TO OPERATE?
A. NO. OUR PROCEDURES ARE EVALUATED AS PART OF
l
16
17
OUR ACCREDITATION PROCESS.
Q. SO YOU ARE ACCREDITED?
l
18 A. THE LAB IS ACCREDITED BY THE AMERICAN SOCIETY l
19 OF CRIME LAB DIRECTORS.
20 Q. AS WELL AS THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA? l
21 A. THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DOES NOT ACCREDIT
22 LABORATORIES.
l
23
24
Q. DO YOU HAVE A PERMIT TO OPERATE WITHIN THE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA?
l
25 A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY DO NOT ISSUE PERMITS TO l
26 OPERATE.
27 Q. THEY DON'T DO THAT EITHER? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
[
1124
r 1 Q. SO HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO OPERATE AS A CRIME LAB

c 2 IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA?
r 3
4
A. WE ESSENTIALLY -- I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER BEEN
ASKED THAT QUESTION BEFORE.
5 Q. DO YOU NEED A LICENSE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
r 6 IS IT LIKE OPERATING A TATTOO PARLOR OR A LIQUOR STORE
r 7
8
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
A. NOT AS FAR AS I KNOW, NO.
r 9
10
Q. JUST AS YOU WOULDN'T NEED A PEER-REVIEWED
ARTICLE TO OPERATE AS WELL.
[ 11 A. CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q. AND, LASTLY, MR. MONTPETIT, IF WE LOOK BACK AT
EXHIBIT EE, CAN YOU TELL THE JURY THE SUSPECT'S NAME
r 14
15
LISTED ON THAT LAB REPORT OR LAB REQUEST FORM?
A. THE SUSPECT'S PORTION OF THE HEADER IS BLANK.
r 16
17
Q. WHY IS THAT?
r 18 SPECULATION.
r 20 THE WITNESS: WELL, BECAUSE WHEN I WRITE THE
r 21
22
HEADERS ON THESE REPORTS, I'M FOLLOWING THE INFORMATION
THAT'S CONTAINED WITHIN THE REQUEST THAT I RECEIVED.
r 23
24
AND IN THIS INSTANCE, THE REQUEST I RECEIVED DID NOT
LIST A SUSPECT.
r 25
26
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING.
c 27 THE COURT: MR. MONTPETIT, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU
28 MAY STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU. PLEASE BE SURE YOU
r
r
1125
l
l
1 LEAVE ANY MARKED EXHIBITS HERE, AND THEN, OF COURSE,
l
2
3
4
TAKE ALL YOUR OWN DOCUMENTS.
INQUIRING OF BOTH COUNSEL, DOES THE WITNESS
SITUATION THAT WE DISCUSSED OVER THE LUNCH HOUR STILL
, J
5 OBTAIN?
6 MR. TROCHA: YES.
l
7
8
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IT WAS UNCLEAR AS TO HOW
l
9 LONG THE EXAMINATION OF MR. MONTPETIT WAS GOING TO TAKE.
l
10 IT WAS, AS YOU KNOW, LENGTHY. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
11 THE PEOPLE'S NEXT WITNESS WAS CONTEMPLATED TO l
12 BE THE MEDICAL EXAMINER, BUT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER AND
13 THE OTHER WITNESSES ARE NOW NOT AVAILABLE FOR THIS l
14 AFTERNOON. THAT MEANS WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE RECESS
15 RIGHT NOW UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING.
l
16
17
I APOLOGIZE FOR THE FITS AND STARTS, BUT I WILL
SAY THAT DESPITE THE COMPLEXITY OF THE SUBJECT MATTER, I
l
18 THINK BOTH COUNSEL ARE MOVING THROUGH THIS AS l
19 EXPEDITIOUSLY AS CAN BE EXPECTED, GIVEN THE IMPORTANCE
20 OF THE ISSUES TO BOTH SIDES. l
21
22
I WOULD ASK THAT YOU REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS AND ANY MATERIALS ON
l
23
24
THE CHAIRS. HAVE A SAFE TRIP BACK, AND WE'LL SEE YOU
OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM AT 9:00 TOMORROW MORNING. THANK
l
25 YOU. l
27 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) l
l
l
[
1126
r 1 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.
r 2 SO OUR BATTING ORDER AT THIS TIME FOR TOMORROW
r 3
4
IS?
MR. TROCHA: ANDRES LOPEZ.

THE COURT: ANDRES LOPEZ. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL BE
[ 5
6 GIVEN MR. LOPEZ. WE WILL FINISH WITH MR. LOPEZ ON
r 7
8
FRIDAY. AND COUNSEL ARE ASKED TO PLAN AND CONDUCT THEIR
EXAMINATION ACCORDINGLY; THAT IS, BARRING SOME
r 9 UNFORESEEN EXIGENCY. I THANK YOU BOTH. IF THERE IS
r 10
11
NOTHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS, WE'LL STAND IN RECESS.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU BOTH. WE'LL BE IN RECESS
r 12
13
UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00.
L 14
15
THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
Ill
r 16
17
Ill
Ill
r 18 Ill
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25
26
Ill
Ill
L 27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
r
. ss
[ COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO)

SAN DIEGO, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT PAGES 986 THROUGH
rL 1126, INCLUSIVE, CONTAIN A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT

OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER ON
r WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6, 2011.
r
r
r CSR NO. 6263
r
r
rt
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA I ) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS,
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. 0060019
vs . )
)
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT. )
) TRIAL

VOLUME 11
APRIL 7, 2011
APPEARANCES :

STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT:

r

)
r OF CALIFORNIA,
PLAINTIFF I
)
)
)
)
D.A. NO. ACVSOO
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________)
DEFENDANT . )
r APRIL 7, 2011
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r
r WITNESSES
PAGE
r
ANDRES L.
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r PEOPLE'S 231
PEOPLE'S 263
GROUP PHOTOGRAPH
GROUP PHOTOGRAPH
1145
1145
r PEOPLE'S 232
PEOPLE'S 244
GROUP PHOTOGRAPH
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
1173
1182
r PEOPLE'S 247
PEOPLE'S 261
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
1183
1184
r PEOPLE'S 246 PHOTOGRAPH OF PICNIC BENCHES IN

PARK
1185
r PEOPLE'S 245
PEOPLE'S 248
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
PHOTOGRAPH OF SAL CAMPOS
1190
1199
r PEOPLE'S 249 PHOTOGRAPH OF AREA OF SHOOTING IN

PARK
1200
r PEOPLE'S 250
PEOPLE'S 251
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND TREES AND
1201
1203
r PEOPLE'S 252
FENCE
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND FENCE 1204
r PEOPLE'S 253 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND TREES AND

FENCE
1204
r PEOPLE'S 254
PEOPLE'S 255
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK FROM NORTH,
LOOKING DOWN FRANKLIN
1205
1206
r PEOPLE'S 256 PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, LOOKING NORTH 1206
r PEOPLE'S 257
PEOPLE'S 258
1206
1207
r PEOPLE'S 259 PHOTOGRAPH OF LIGHTS 1207
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r PEOPLE'S 260
PEOPLE'S 261
1208
1209
r PEOPLE'S 262
PEOPLE'S 264
PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND
STREETLIGHTS
AUDIO CD OF POLICE INTERVIEW
1219
1220
r PEOPLE'S 264A TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CD OF POLICE
INTERVIEW
1220
r DEFENSE NN TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH

ANDRES L.
1232
r DEFENSE pp TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH

ANDRES L.
1233
r DEFENSE MM
DEFENSE 00
1249
1257
r DEFENSE QQ AUDIOTAPED INTERVIEW OF ANDRES L. 1279
r
r
r
r
r
r
r 1127
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; THURS., APRIL 7, 2011, 9:03AM
r 2
r 3
4
r 5
6
THIS IS THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST
r 7
8
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
PRESENT, INCLUDING INVESTIGATING DETECTIVE LAMBERT.
r 9 GOOD MORNING TO YOU. NO JURORS ARE PRESENT AT THIS
r 10
11
TIME.
I HAVE BEEN INFORMED JUST BEFORE GOING ON THE
r 12
13
RECORD THAT MR. ANDRES LOPEZ IS INDEED OUR WITNESS
TODAY. MY TENTATIVE GAME PLAN IS TO TAKE BREAKS
r 14
15
ESSENTIALLY ON THE HOUR, AND THERE HAS BEEN A REQUEST AS
WELL BY THE PROSECUTION TO PLAY THE AUDIO RECORDING OF
r 16
17
MR. LOPEZ'S INITIAL INTERVIEW; THAT IS, HIS FIRST
INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE AT THE TIME. I UNDERSTAND
r 18 THERE IS NO OBJECTION TO THAT.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO OBJECTION.
NEXT, MR. TROCHA, TELL ME FOR THE
r 21
22
RECORD AGAIN ABOUT THE THREATS AND WHAT YOU'D SEEK TO
EXPLORE.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA: NOT FOR THIS TRIAL, BUT FOR THE
LAST TRIAL, MR. LOPEZ WAS BROUGHT UP FROM MEXICO, AS WE
r 25
26
DID BEFORE. HE CONTACTED A COUSIN WHO LIVES IN
SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO.
r 27 THE COUSIN TOLD HIM HE HAD BEEN RECEIVING NOT
28 NECESSARILY THREATS TO THE COUSIN, BUT INFORMATION TO
r
r
1128
l
l
1 PASS ON TO ANDRES THAT THE PEOPLE FROM SHELLTOWN WERE
2 LOOKING FOR HIM; IF THEY FOUND HIM, THEY WOULD KILL HIM l
3 BECAUSE HE'S A SNITCH ON THIS CASE. THAT MADE HIM
4 NERVOUS TO BE A WITNESS IN THE TRIAL. l
5 AS WELL, PEOPLE WERE COMING IN AND OUT OF THE
6 COURTROOM THAT HE IDENTIFIED AS SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
l
7 GANG MEMBERS. SO THAT WAS ALSO DURING HIS TESTIMONY IN
8
9
THE LAST HEARING.
IF THAT HAPPENS AGAIN THIS TIME, WE'LL BRING IT
, J
10 TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION FIRST BEFORE EXPLORING IT IN
11 DETAIL IN COURT. BUT I WOULD ASK TO BRING IN THE PRIOR l
12 INCIDENTS OF THESE THREATS BEFORE TO INDICATE
l
13
14
MR. LOPEZ'S STATE OF MIND AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE AND
ITS EFFECT ON BEING A WITNESS. , J
15 THE COURT: ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THEORY THAT
16
17
YOU ASKED TO DO WITH MS. BERUMEN.
MR. TROCHA: EXACTLY.
l
18 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI. l
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. HEARSAY AND
20 FOUNDATION. THERE'S ACTUALLY NO EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS l
21 CONNECTED TO MR. DOMINGUEZ. I'D LIKE A LIMITING
22 INSTRUCTION ON THAT.
l
23
24
THE COURT: THANK YOU. I WILL NOTE THE
OBJECTION; OVERRULE IT FOR THE SAME REASONS THAT WE
l
25 DISCUSSED WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT MS. BERUMEN'S TESTIMONY. l
26 A LIMITING INSTRUCTION I BELIEVE IS, OF COURSE,
27 APPROPRIATE, AND I WILL DO THAT. AND AT SUCH TIME AS l
28 THE TESTIMONY GOES INTO THAT SUBJECT MATTER, I WILL
l
l
r 1129
r 1 EXPLAIN TO THE JURORS AGAIN THAT THAT LIMITING
r 2 INSTRUCTION APPLIES AND REPEAT THE SUBSTANCE OF IT.
r 3
4
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, ALL. MAY WE
r 5
6
HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
r 7
8

10
r
GOOD MORNING TO EACH OF YOU. WE WILL HAVE THE RECORD
11 REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT IN ADDITION TO ALL
r 12
13
PARTIES AND COUNSEL PREVIOUSLY NOTED.
YOU WILL SEE THAT WE HAVE A SECOND COURT
r 14
15
REPORTER HERE AGAIN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THIS IS
MS. MERCEDES ALLEN, WHO HAS BEEN A HIGHLY EXPERIENCED,
r 16
17
LONG-TIME COURT REPORTER WITH THIS COURT WHO DECIDED TO
TAKE A FEW YEARS OFF SO SHE COULD HAVE A FAMILY AND THAT
r 18 SORT OF THING, AND SHE IS GETTING IN THE BUSINESS NOW

19 AND UPDATING HER PRACTICUM. AND, MS. ALLEN, HAPPY TO
r 20 HAVE YOU HERE.
r 21
22 WITNESS.
WITH THAT, THE PEOPLE MAY CALL THEIR NEXT
r 23
24 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE CALL ANDRES LOPEZ, YOUR
r 25 THE COURT: YOU MAY. COUNSEL CAN FEEL FREE TO
r 26
27
ADDRESS THIS WITNESS BY HIS FIRST NAME IN THE INTEREST
OF COMFORT OF BOTH COUNSEL AND WITNESSES.
r 28 ANY OBJECTION WHEN HE'S SWORN IF WE ASK FOR
r
l
1130
,
1
2
JUST HIS FIRST NAME AND LAST INITIAL?
MR. TROCHA: NO OBJECTION.
, J
J
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO OBJECTION.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, BEFORE HE COMES
6 IN, MOTION FOR SIDEBAR.
l
7
8
STAND RIGHT THERE FOR ONE MOMENT.
THANK YOU. ANDRES,
GOOD MORNING TO YOU,
l
9 SIR. l
11
12
13
THE CLERK: DO YOU SOLEMNLY STATE UNDER PENALTY
OF PERJURY THAT THE EVIDENCE YOU SHALL GIVE IN THIS
MATTER SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING
,
l
J
14
15
BUT THE TRUTH?
THE WITNESS: YES.
l
l
18 THE COURT: HAVE A SEAT RIGHT HERE, IF YOU l
19 WOULD, PLEASE, SIR.
20 THE CLERK: FOR THE RECORD, SPELL YOUR FIRST l
21 NAME AND GIVE US YOUR LAST INITIAL ONLY.
22 THE WITNESS: ANDRES LOPEZ IS A-N-D-R-E-S,
l
23
24
L-0-P-E-Z.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. ANDRES, GOOD MORNING.
1
25 WE'RE GOING TO BE ASKING YOU SOME QUESTIONS. DO YOU l
26 UNDERSTAND THAT?
28 THE COURT: WHAT THE LADY JUST ASKED YOU IS IF
l
l
[
1131
r 1 YOU'RE GOING TO PROMISE TO TELL US THE TRUTH. DO YOU

r 2 UNDERSTAND THAT?
r 3
4
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
HOW OLD ARE YOU?
5 THE WITNESS: 16.
r 6 THE COURT: HOW FAR DID YOU GO IN SCHOOL?
r 7
8
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
TO 6TH GRADE.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO
r 9 HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH?
r 10
11
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
12 THE TRUTH AND A LIE?
r 14
15
THE COURT:
MOMENT, IF YOU WOULD.
WHY DON'T YOU LOOK OVER AT ME FOR A
r 16 WHAT COLOR IS THE ROBE THAT I HAVE ON HERE

17 TODAY?
r 18 THE WITNESS: BLACK.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
THAT BE TRUE?
IF I TOLD YOU IT WAS RED, WOULD
r 21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
NO.
WHAT WOULD THAT BE?
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
A LIE.
OKAY. WE'RE GOING TO BE ASKING YOU
r 25 QUESTIONS. I MIGHT ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS, THE
r 26
27
PROSECUTOR IS GOING TO ASK YOU A LOT OF QUESTIONS, AND
MR. SPEREDELOZZI FOR THE DEFENSE WILL ASK YOU A LOT OF
28 QUESTIONS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
r
r
1132
, ]
1
1 THE WITNESS: YES.
l
2
3
4
THE COURT:
UNDERSTAND THAT?
IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU ANSWER
TRUTHFULLY TO EACH ONE OF THE QUESTIONS. DO YOU , j
5 THE WITNESS: YES.

6 THE COURT: IF THERE IS A QUESTION WHERE YOU
1
I'm}
7 HONESTLY DON'T REMEMBER, WE DON'T WANT YOU TO GUESS. WE
8
9
WANT YOU TO TELL US YOU DON'T REMEMBER.
THE WITNESS: YES.
IS THAT OKAY?
, J
J
10 THE COURT: DO YOU READ THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE,
11 SIR? l
13 THE COURT: FROM TIME TO TIME, YOU MAY BE ASKED
l
14
15
TO READ SOMETHING THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE SAID IN THE PAST.
ARE YOU COMFORTABLE THAT YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT?
l
l
17 THE COURT: IF YOU HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY, WILL
18 YOU LET ME KNOW? l
20 THE COURT: AND MAY I ALSO OFFER ANOTHER RULE 1
21 FOR ALL OF US. IF ANYBODY ASKS YOU A QUESTION THAT YOU
22 DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE QUESTION IS ASKING, JUST TELL
l
23
24
ME THAT. JUST SAY, "I DON'T UNDERSTAND."
THAT TO ONE OF THE LAWYERS AND YOU CAN SAY THAT TO ME.
YOU CAN SAY
l
25 OKAY? l
27 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. I FIND THIS l
28 EXAMINATION MAY PROCEED.
l
l
r 1133
r 1 ANDRES L.,
r 2 PEOPLE'S WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN,
r 3
4
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. GOOD MORNING, ANDRES.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING.
THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE COME INTO
r 9
10
COURT TO TALK AS A WITNESS, IS IT?
r
A. NO.
11 Q. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW ARE YOU FEELING RIGHT NOW?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
ALL RIGHT.
CAN I GET YOU TO MOVE THAT MICROPHONE A LITTLE
r 16
17
CLOSER TO YOU.
WE'VE HEARD THE FURTHEST YOU MADE IT IN SCHOOL
r 18 WAS THE 6TH GRADE.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
ARE YOU NERVOUS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU GET NERVOUS WHILE YOU'RE IN COURT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT MAKES YOU NERVOUS?
r 25 A. JUST PEOPLE.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE?
JUST THE PEOPLE INSIDE THE ROOM.
r. 28 Q. THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE?
r.
1134
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW THESE PEOPLE TO MY LEFT, TO YOUR l
3 RIGHT?
4 A. NO. l
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THOSE PEOPLE BEFORE?
5
6 A. NO.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHY DO THEY MAKE YOU NERVOUS?
JUST LOOKING AT ME.
l
9 Q. DO YOU GET CONFUSED FROM TIME TO TIME WHEN l
10 YOU'RE IN COURT?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. WHAT CONFUSES YOU?
13 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
l
14
15
Q.
WITNESS?
WHAT CAN CONFUSE YOU WHILE YOU'RE BEING A
l
16 A. ASK ME BIG QUESTIONS, LIKE BIG WORDS. l
17 Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND BIG WORDS?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND LITTLE WORDS?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. AM I USING BIG OR LITTLE WORDS RIGHT NOW?
22 A. LITTLE WORDS.
l
23
24
Q. IF I USE BIG WORDS, CAN YOU STOP ME AND TELL ME
TO USE LITTLE WORDS OR TELL ME THAT YOU'RE CONFUSED?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE IN THIS COURTROOM THAT
27 MAKES YOU NERVOUS? l
28 A. NO.
1
l
r 1135
r 1 Q. DO YOU SEE THE PERSON SITTING ALL THE WAY OVER
r 2 TO MY RIGHT, YOUR LEFT, IN THE BLACK SUIT?
r 3 A. YES.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW THAT PERSON?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS THAT PERSON'S NAME?
r 7
8
A. SPEEDY.
MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, FOR THE RECORD, THE
r 9 WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT.
r 10
11
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
THE RECORD WILL SO REFLECT.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WORD "TESTIFY" MEANS?
NO.
r 14
15
Q.
TODAY?
WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING HERE IN COURT
r 16
17
A.
Q.
WELL, TESTIFYING.
DO YOU KNOW -- YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TESTIFYING
r 18 MEANS?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NOT REALLY.
IS TESTIFYING ONE OF THOSE BIG WORDS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WELL, KIND OF, YEAH.
YOU HEARD THE LADY OVER HERE IN THE GLASSES
r 23
24
READ YOU WHAT WAS CALLED THE OATH, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. SHE ASKED YOU IF YOU WOULD PROMISE TO TELL THE
r 26
27
TRUTH.
A. YES.
r 28 Q. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL THE TRUTH?
r
1136
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. HAVE WE TALKED BEFORE YOU CAME IN TODAY? l
3 A. YES.
l
4 Q. WHAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING MYSELF AND
MR. CAMPOS, THE GENTLEMAN IN THE WHITE T-SHIRT IN THE ,
,
5
j
6 CORNER, TOLD YOU YOUR JOB IS TODAY?
7 A. JUST TELL THE TRUTH.
r
8 Q. YESTERDAY WE WENT OUT TO OCEAN VIEW PARK,
9 CORRECT? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. YOU SHOWED US SEVERAL AREAS IN OCEAN VIEW PARK, l
12 RIGHT?
13 A. YES. l
14 Q. WE'LL GET TO THOSE LATER WITH THOSE ~
J
15 PHOTOGRAPHS. BUT DO YOU REMEMBER BEING HERE THE LAST
16 HEARING, ANDRES? DO YOU
l
17 A. THE FIRST ONE?
1
18
19
20
Q.
OCTOBER.
A.
THE LAST ONE.
YES.
THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE IN
, 1
21 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS

l
22
23
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
WERE YOU SHOWN SOMETHING LIKE THAT THE LAST
, J
24 TIME?
25 THE COURT: CAN HE SEE IT? l
27 BY MR. TROCHA: l
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT
,
l
I
r 1137
r 1 2?
r 2 A. WELL, YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHAT IS IT?
OCEAN VIEW PARK.
r 5
6
Q. IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S A PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN FROM A
HELICOPTER.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHILE YOU RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S OCEAN VIEW PARK,
r 9 ARE YOU OKAY TELLING US CERTAIN LOCATIONS IN THE PARK?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
LOCATION?
RIGHT.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY NOT?
r 14
15
A. BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE SAME AS WHEN YOU'RE ON THE
GROUND AS WHEN YOU'RE IN THE SKY.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
SO WE'RE ON THE GROUND RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?
YES.
r 18 Q. IS IT EASIER FOR YOU TO POINT THINGS OUT WHILE
r 19
20
BEING ON THE GROUND?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. IS IT CONFUSING TO LOOK AT PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2
AND POINT THINGS OUT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WE CAN TELL THERE'S STREETS AND THERE'S A PARK
r 25 AND THERE'S BATHROOMS, RIGHT?

A. YES.
r
26
27 Q. BUT OTHER THINGS, ARE THOSE DIFFERENT THAN
r 28 BEING ON THE GROUND?
rt
1138
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW YOUR ADDRESS OR THE CITY, l
3 BUT WHERE ARE YOU LIVING BEFORE YOU CAME INTO COURT
4 TODAY? l
5 A. WHERE WAS I LIVING?
6 Q. WERE YOU LIVING IN AMERICA OR SOMEWHERE ELSE?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
SOMEWHERE ELSE.
WHERE WAS THAT?
l
9 A. MEXICO. l
10 Q. WHEN DID YOU MOVE TO MEXICO?
11 A. WHEN I GOT OUT OF JUVENILE HALL. l
12 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET OUT OF JUVENILE HALL?
13 A. IT WAS DECEMBER OF 2009. l
14
15
Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TIMES AND DATES, ARE
YOU COMFORTABLE WITH TIMES AND DATES?
l
1
,
16 A. NOT WELL, NO.
17 Q. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH SOME BUT NOT OTHERS?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. YOU KNOW WHEN YOU WERE BORN, RIGHT?
l
20
21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU KNOW WHEN OTHER THINGS HAPPENED; IS
THAT CORRECT?
,
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
IF I WERE TO ASK YOU, THOUGH, WHAT YOU WERE
l
25 DOING THREE THURSDAYS AGO, COULD YOU TELL ME? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. COULD YOU TELL ME THE DATE? l
28 A. NO.
1
l
r 1139
r 1 Q. COULD YOU TELL ME THE TIMES YOU DID THINGS ON
r 2 THAT DAY?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
COULD YOU TELL ME IF YOU DID SOMETHING IN THE
r 5
6
MORNING INSTEAD OF DOING SOMETHING AT NIGHT?
A. NO.
r
l
7 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN THINGS HAPPENED AT NIGHT
8 INSTEAD OF WHEN THEY HAPPENED DURING THE DAY?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW ABOUT DISTANCES? COULD YOU TELL ME IN FEET

r 11 HOW FAR I AM FROM YOU RIGHT NOW?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
ARE YOU GOOD WITH FEET OR INCHES OR THINGS LIKE
r 14
15
THAT?
A. NO.
r 16
17
Q. COULD YOU TELL ME HOW FAR I AM AWAY FROM YOU BY
POINTING TO THINGS IN THE COURTROOM?
r 18 A. FROM THIS DESK TO YOUR COMPUTER, YEAH.
r 19
20
Q. SO THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO HELP YOU IF YOU WERE
ABLE TO ACTUALLY SEE IT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AND IF YOU WERE ON THE GROUND?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT IF I WAS STANDING SOMEWHERE IN THE PARK,
r 25 WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO SAY THE SAME THING BY LOOKING AT
r 26
27
PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2?
A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
r 28 Q. SURE. IF I WERE TO ASK YOU HOW FAR I AM FROM
r
1140
, I
l
1 YOU RIGHT NOW AND TO LOOK AT PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2 AND TELL
2 YOU TO POINT TO TWO THINGS ON THAT PICTURE, WOULD YOU BE l
3 ABLE TO DO THAT?
4 A. NO. l
5 Q. WHY DID YOU STOP GOING TO SCHOOL AT THE 6TH
l
6
7
8
GRADE?
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I STARTED BEING ON THE STREETS.
HOW OLD WERE YOU AT THAT TIME?
, J
9 A. I WAS 13. l
10 Q. WHILE YOU WERE IN SCHOOL, DID YOU HAVE TO GO TO
11 ANY SPECIAL CLASSES? l
12 A. COUPLE.
13 Q. WHEN WAS THAT? WHAT GRADES, I SHOULD SAY. l
14
15
A.
Q.
4TH AND 5TH.
WHAT KIND OF SPECIAL CLASSES DID YOU HAVE TO GO
1
l
,
16 TO?
17 A. SPECIAL ED CLASSES.
18 Q. IS IT HARD FOR YOU TO LEARN THINGS?
19 A. SOME THINGS.
20 Q. WHAT THINGS ARE HARD FOR YOU TO LEARN? l
21 A. JUST THINGS THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
22 Q. WHAT ARE THE SORTS OF THINGS THAT YOU DON'T
l
23
24
UNDERSTAND?
A. JUST BIG WORDS, BIG EXPLANATIONS.
l
25 Q. HOW ABOUT NUMBERS? l
26 A. NUMBERS, YEAH.
27 Q. ARE YOU GOOD AT MATH? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 1141
r 1 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO AROUND THIS TIME, AROUND THE
r 2 6TH GRADE.
r
3 DO YOU KNOW ABOUT A GANG CALLED SHELLTOWN 38TH
4 STREET?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT GANG?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I JUST HANGED AROUND WITH THEM.
WERE YOU A MEMBER OF THAT GANG?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU HAVE A NICKNAME FROM THAT GANG?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT WAS THAT NICKNAME?
STALKER.
r 14
15
Q.
GANG?
HOW DID YOU START HANGING AROUND WITH THAT
r 16
17
A. BECAUSE I USED TO GO TO SCHOOL WITH SOME GUY
FROM SHELLTOWN, AND HE STARTED TALKING TO ME ABOUT ALL
r 18 OF IT, AND I JUST STARTED HANGING AROUND WITH THEM.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WAS IT SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO DO?
WELL, YEAH.
r 21
22
Q. WHO WAS THIS PERSON?
OR NICKNAME?
DO YOU REMEMBER HIS NAME
r 23
24
A.
Q.
WELL HIS NICKNAME IS HEX.
H-E-X?
r 25 A. YEAH.
r 26
27
Q. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE USING NICKNAMES INSTEAD OF
REAL NAMES?
r 28 A. YES.
r
1142
l
l
1 Q. YOU KNOW MOST PEOPLE BY THEIR NICKNAME?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. SO WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU STARTED HANGING
4 AROUND WITH SHELLTOWN? l
5 A. JUST STARTED HANGING AROUND WITH THEM AND
6 KICKING IT WITH THEM.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO KICK IT WITH SOMEBODY?
HANG AROUND, LIKE DRINK BEERS, SMOKE WEED WITH
l
9 THEM. l
10 Q. SO YOU DRANK BEERS?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. SMOKED MARIJUANA?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU'RE NOT 21.
NO.
l
16 Q. IS THIS JUST ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DID WHILE
l
17 BEING IN SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WHEN YOU STARTED HANGING AROUND, WERE YOU AN
20 OFFICIAL MEMBER? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. CAN YOU BECOME AN OFFICIAL MEMBER?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DOES BEING OFFICIAL MEAN?
l
25 A. YOU HAVE TO BE JUMPED IN AND BE OFFICIAL. l
26 Q. WHEN YOU WERE JUST HANGING AROUND WITH
27 SHELLTOWN, WAS ANYBODY CALLING YOU STALKER AT THAT l
28 TIME?
l
l
r 1143
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET THE NAME OF STALKER?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
WHEN I GOT JUMPED IN.
HOW MANY TIMES WERE YOU JUMPED IN?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
TWICE.
UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU'RE NOT GOOD WITH DATES,
r 7
8
DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHEN YOU WERE FIRST JUMPED IN?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
ABOUT WHEN WAS THAT?
LIKE 2007, AROUND THAT DATE.
r 11 Q. YOU'RE HERE -- JUST TO JUMP AHEAD A LITTLE BIT,
r 12
13
YOU'RE HERE BECAUSE YOU SAW HOW MOISES LOPEZ WAS KILLED;
IS THAT CORRECT?
r
L
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
MOISES LOPEZ IS ALSO KNOWN BY SMOKEY?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
THE DAY SMOKEY WAS KILLED -- THIS FIRST JUMPING
r 18 IN, DID THAT HAPPEN WHEN SMOKEY WAS ALIVE OR WHEN SMOKEY
r 19
20
WAS DEAD?
A. WHAT JUMP-IN?
r 21
22
Q.
A.
THIS FIRST JUMP-IN.
MY FIRST JUMPED IN?
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YES.
IT WAS BEFORE.
r 25 Q. WHILE SMOKEY WAS STILL ALIVE?
r
26 A. YES.
27 Q. YOU SAID YOU WERE JUMPED IN A SECOND TIME?
r 28 A. YES.
r
1144
l
l
1 Q. WHEN YOU WERE JUMPED IN THE SECOND TIME, WAS
2 SMOKEY ALIVE OR WAS HE DEAD? l
3 A. HE WAS DEAD.
4 Q. THE SECOND JUMPING IN, DID IT TAKE PLACE ON A l
5 SPECIAL DAY?
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DAY DID IT TAKE PLACE ON?
3-8 DAY.
l
9 Q. WHAT IS 3-8 DAY? l
10 A. 38TH DAY.
11 Q. IS THAT FOR 3 BEING MARCH? l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. THE 8 BEING THE 8TH OF MARCH? l
14 A. YES.
l
15
16
Q.
STREET?
IS THIS KIND OF A BIRTHDAY FOR SHELLTOWN 38TH
,
J
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHERE DID THIS JUMP-IN HAPPEN? 1
19 A. SPRING VALLEY.
20 Q. WAS IT AT A PERSON'S HOUSE? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHOSE HOUSE WAS IT AT?
1
23
24
A.
Q.
SPEEDY'S.
WERE YOU THE ONLY PERSON THERE?
1
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. WHO ELSE WAS THERE?
27 A. THERE WERE SEVERAL PEOPLE. l
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THERE WERE PICTURES TAKEN OF
l
l
r 1145
r 1 THIS?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. HAVE YOU SEEN PICTURES OF THIS BEFORE COMING
INTO COURT TODAY?
r 5
6
A. YES.
MR. TROCHA: THERE ARE TWO PICTURES I HAVE HERE
r 7
8
ANDRES IN MY HANDS.
THE COURT: JURORS, FEEL FREE TO STAND UP OR
r 9
10
MOVE DOWN IF YOU NEED TO IN THE BOX TO SEE.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 231, GROUP PHOTOGRAPH, WAS
r 11 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 12
13
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DESPITE WHAT IT SAYS ON THE BOARD, THIS FIRST
r 14
15
PICTURE IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 231.
DO YOU SEE THAT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
IF YOU LOOK AT THAT IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOU
r 18 LOOK AT WHAT'S ON THE TV BEHIND YOU, IS THAT THE SAME
r 19
20
PICTURE?
A. YES.
r 21
22
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 263, GROUP PHOTOGRAPH, WAS
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I'M ALSO SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
r 25 PEOPLE'S 263.
r 26 IS THAT A PAPER PRINTOUT OF WHAT'S ON THE TV
27 BEHIND YOU?
r 28 A. YES.
r
1146
l
l .J
1 Q. IS THERE WRITING ON THAT PIECE OF PAPER?

2 A. YES. l
3 Q. POINTING TO WHERE IT SAYS "ANDRES" WITH A LINE
4 TO THE PERSON IN THE PICTURE, DID I WRITE THAT? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. ALL THE OTHER WRITINGS AND THE LINES ON IT, WHO
l
7
8
WROTE THOSE?
A. ME.
l
9 Q. DID YOU DO THIS YESTERDAY? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. ARE YOU ABLE TO TELL THE JURY WHO THE PEOPLE l
12 ARE IN THIS PICTURE?
13 A. YES. l
14 Q. LET'S START WITH YOU. AND YOU CAN GET UP, IF
15 YOU NEED TO, TO POINT OUT THESE PEOPLE.
l
16
17
WHERE ARE YOU IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
THE COURT: GO AHEAD AND STAND THERE NEXT TO
l
18 THE TV, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, BUT I NEED YOU TO TALK IN l
19 A BIG VOICE FOR US.
20 THE WITNESS: RIGHT HERE. l
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. YOU'VE INDICATED THE PERSON IN THE FRONT ROW,
l
23
24
SECOND IN FROM THE RIGHT WEARING A BLACK SWEATSHIRT.
A. YES.
l
25 Q. IS THIS A PICTURE TAKEN ON 3-8 DAY AT SPEEDY'S l
26 HOUSE?
27 A. YES. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. LEADING.
l
l
r 1147
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r
3 Q. DID THE JUMP-IN HAPPEN ON THE DAY THIS PICTURE
4 WAS TAKEN?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU JUMPED IN?
r 7
8
A. YES.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. LEADING.
r 9
10
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
r 11 Q. WAS THIS PICTURE TAKEN BEFORE OR AFTER THE
r 12
13
JUMP-IN?
A. IT WAS BEFORE.
r 14
15
Q. WHAT HAPPENS -- IF YOU CAN, SIT DOWN AT THE
WITNESS STAND AT THE MICROPHONE AND THE CHAIR FOR JUST A
r 16
17
MOMENT SO WE CAN HEAR YOU BETTER.
PICTURE.
WE'LL GET BACK TO THE
r 18 WHAT HAPPENS DURING A JUMP-IN?
r
19 A. YOU JUST GET JUMPED IN.
20 Q. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
r 21
22
A.
SHELLTOWN.
YOU GET JUMPED IN BY SEVERAL GANG MEMBERS FROM
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHO WELL, WHAT HAPPENS DURING A JUMP-IN?
WE GET PUNCHED, SOCKED.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
BY OTHER MEMBERS?
YES.
r 27 Q. WHAT OTHER MEMBERS DO JUMP-INS?
r 28 A. THE GUYS FROM SHELLTOWN.
r
l
1148
, J
1 Q. ARE THERE OLDER MEMBERS OF GANGS IN THIS GANG?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. ARE THERE YOUNGER MEMBERS IN THIS GANG?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. BETWEEN THE OLDER AND YOUNGER MEMBERS, WHO DOES
6 THE JUMPING IN?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
OG.
WHAT IS AN OG?
l
9 A. OLDER GUYS. l
10 Q. WHO GETS JUMPED IN?
11 A. THE NEW PEOPLE. l
12 Q. NORMALLY THE YOUNGER GUYS?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW OLD WERE YOU IN THAT PICTURE?
I WAS -- I DON'T REMEMBER.
l
16 Q. DID YOU GET PUNCHED?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. YOU SAID YOU GOT SOCKED. l
19 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE SOCKED?
20 A. I GOT PUNCHED. l
21 Q. DID YOU GET KICKED?
22 A. NO.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
IT'S JUST PUNCHING?
YES.
l
25 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE SOCKED AND PUNCHED YOU? l
26 A. FIVE.
27 Q. WHO? l
28 A. IT WAS CARTOON, STONY, SPEEDY -- AND I FORGOT
l
,
r 1149
r 1 THE OTHER GUY'S NAME.

r 2 Q. DO YOU SEE THE PEOPLE IN THE PICTURE THAT
r 3
4
PUNCHED YOU?
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
CAN YOU POINT THEM OUT FOR THE JURY.
ALL OF THEM?
r 7
8
Q.
A.
YES.
IT WAS THIS GUY.
r 9 Q. WHO IS THAT GUY?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
STONY.
AND FOR THE RECORD, YOU POINTED TO THE PERSON
r 12
13
THIRD IN ON THE RIGHT ON THE BOTTOM ROW.
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE?
IT WAS THIS GUY, CARTOON.
r 16
17
Q. YOU POINTED TO A GUY AND CALLED HIM CARTOON,
AND HE IS THE MAN ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE WEARING A
r 18 POSSIBLY CAMOUFLAGE SWEATSHIRT, BROWN AND TAN.
r 19 A. YES.
I
20 Q. WHO ELSE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
HIM.
YOU POINTED TO THE MAN IN THE MIDDLE WEARING A
r 23
24
BLACK BASEBALL HAT, WITH A CAST ON HIS RIGHT ARM AND A
WHITE THING ON THE HAT. WHO IS THAT?
r 25 A. SPEEDY.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE?
HIM.
r 28 Q. YOU POINTED TO THE MAN ON THE FAR RIGHT SIDE
r
1150
1 STANDING UP WITH A WHITE JACKET WITH A BLACK SHIRT.

2 WHAT IS HIS NAME?
3 A. SHOTGUN.
4 Q. SHOTGUN?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE WHO JUMPED YOU IN IN THAT
7 PICTURE?
8 A. THAT'S ABOUT IT.
9 Q. YOU POINTED TO SEVERAL PEOPLE IN THIS PICTURE
10 NOW. LET'S START WITH THE FRONT ROW, ANDRES.
11 WHO'S THE PERSON KNEELING DOWN IN THE GRAY
12 T-SHIRT TO THE FAR LEFT?
13 A. THIS GUY?
~
14 Q. YES. I
i
15 A. THAT'S CHUBS.
16 Q. CHUBS? l
17 A. YES.
'i
18 Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU CALLED HIM? J
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHO IS THE PERSON IN FRONT OF HIM IN THE BLUE
21 AND YELLOW JACKET? ~
I
22
23
A.
Q.
BLANCO.
BLANCO?
, I
j
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHO IS THE PERSON BETWEEN BLANCO AND STONY? l
26 A. SPANKY. LIL SPANKY.
27 Q. LIL SPANKY? l
28 A. YES.
l
~
l
J
r
I
1151
1 Q. LIL SPANKY?
2 A. YES, LIL SPANKY.
!'1iil
I
3 Q. YOU'VE POINTED TO CARTOON BEHIND THE PEOPLE.
4 DO YOU SEE THE PERSON IN THE BLUE SHIRT WITH THE WHITE
r 5
6
HAT BEHIND CARTOON?
A. YES.
7 Q. WHO IS THAT?
8 A. SPARROW.
r 9 Q. LIKE THE BIRD?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU SEE THE PERSON THAT'S TALLER THAN
r 12
13
CARTOON AND SPARROW IN THE BACK ROW?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO IS THAT?
WELL, I DON'T REALLY KNOW, BUT -- I DON'T
r 16
17
REALLY KNOW WHO IS IT, BUT I GUESS IT'S EITHER CROOKS
I THINK IT'S CROOKS OR YOGI.
r 18 Q. ARE CROOKS AND YOGI TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
DO CROOKS AND YOGI LOOK SIMILAR?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DO THEY LOOK SIMILAR?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THEY ARE CHUBBY, WHITE AND BIG.
DO YOU SEE THE PERSON -- LET'S JUST MOVE ON TO
r 25 ANOTHER PERSON YOU RECOGNIZE IN THE PHOTOGRAPH.
r 26
27 A.
WHO'S THE PERSON TO THE LEFT OF SPEEDY?
THIS GUY?
r 28 Q. YES.
r
1152
1 A. SPANKY.
2 Q. SO IN THIS PICTURE WE HAVE A SPANKY AND A LIL
3 SPANKY?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. DO YOU SEE THE PERSON BEHIND SPEEDY AND BEHIND
6 SPANKY?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. IT'S A BIG GUY. HIS HEAD IS BETWEEN BOTH OF
9 THEM.
10 A. YES.
12 A. NO.
13 Q. DO YOU SEE THE PERSON BEHIND SPEEDY AND ALL WE
14 CAN SEE IS HIS HEAD
15 A. YES.
16 Q. RIGHT TO THE RIGHT SIDE?
17 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PERSON?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WHO IS THAT PERSON?
20 A. CHUCK.
21 Q. CHUCK? ~ I
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. WHO IS THE PERSON JUST TO THE RIGHT OF CHUCK IN
24 A BLUE T-SHIRT?
25 A. VANDAL. l
26 Q. VANDAL?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. DO YOU SEE THE PERSON BEHIND SHOTGUN WITH THE
l
I
r 1153
1 HAT?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT PERSON IS?
YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHO IS THAT PERSON?
LIL GANGSTER.
7 Q. LIL GANGSTER?
8 A. YES.
r 9
10 ANDRES.
Q. IF YOU COULD, PLEASE SIT BACK IN THE CHAIR,
(U%1
Il
11 WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT PICTURE THAT WAS
r 12
13
GETTING JUMPED IN THAT NIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE?
BLANCO, CHUBS, SPANKY, HEFTY AND ME.
r 16
17 SPANKY?
Q. AND THE SPANKY YOU MENTIONED, IS THAT THE LIL
r 18 A. YEAH.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
NOT THE OTHER SPANKY.
NO.
r 21
22 A.
Q. WHOSE HOUSE WAS THIS AT?
SPEEDY'S.
r 23
24 A.
Q. HOW DID YOU GET THERE?
SPANKY TOOK ME.
r 25 Q. WHERE WERE YOU LIVING AT THE TIME?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
IN SHELLTOWN.
THE FIRST JUMP-IN, NOT THIS ONE -- WHERE DID
r 28 THE FIRST ONE HAPPEN?
r
1154
1 A. SOUTH CREST.
2 Q. IS THAT A PARK?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. IS THAT IN SHELLTOWN?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHO DID THAT JUMP-IN?
7 A. IT WAS FLACO, DOWNER AND SNOOPS.
8 Q. ARE THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. ARE THEY NOT IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH BEHIND YOU?
11 A. YES -- NO, THEY'RE NOT.
12 Q. WHY WERE YOU JUMPED IN TWICE?
13 A. BECAUSE THEY SAID THAT THEY WEREN'T -- THEY
14 WEREN'T THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO JUMP ME IN.
15 Q. FLACO, DOWNER AND SNOOPS?
16 A. YEAH.
17 Q. THAT DID NOT MAKE YOU OFFICIAL?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. DID FLACO, DOWNER OR SNOOPS GIVE YOU A
20 NICKNAME?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT WAS THAT?
23 A. YOUNGSTER.
24 Q. AFTER THIS JUMPING IN AT SPEEDY'S HOUSE, WHAT
25 NICKNAME DID YOU GET? l
26 A. STALKER.
27 Q. WHO GAVE YOU THAT NICKNAME? l
28 A. SPEEDY.
l
, j
iI
1155
F'
i
1 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE JUMP-IN AT THAT HOUSE?
r 2 A. JUST -- THEY JUST KICKED. WE JUST HANGED
3 AROUND THERE.
I 4 Q. WAS THERE A PARTY?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS BEER BEING DRANK?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
FOOD?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WAS IT A CELEBRATION?
YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOUR FIRST JUMP-IN?
MY FIRST?
r 14
15
Q.
A.
RIGHT.
JUST STARTED WRITING ON THE STREETS, STARTED
r 16
17
HANGING AROUND.
Q. SO AFTER YOUR FIRST JUMPING IN, WHAT WERE YOU
r 18 WRITING ON THE STREETS?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
MY NICKNAME, OR EVERYTHING.
WHAT IS EVERYTHING?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WELL, I WAS WRITING "SHELLTOWN 38."
WHY WERE YOU DOING THAT?
r 23
24
A. BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS JUMPED IN ALREADY, AND
THEY JUST TOLD ME TO WRITE "SHELLTOWN" ON THE STREETS.
r 25 Q. WHY WERE YOU NOT WRITING "SHELLTOWN" ON THE
r 26
27
STREETS BEFORE THAT DAY?
A. BECAUSE I WASN'T -- I DIDN'T HANG AROUND WITH
F 28 THEM OR I WASN'T EVEN WITH THEM.

l
r
1156
1 Q. CAN YOU DO THAT KIND OF THING IF YOU ARE NOT

2 JUMPED IN?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. WHY NOT?
5 A. BECAUSE IT WOULD BE LIKE WHO IS IT OR WHY IS HE
6 DOING THAT.
7 Q. WHAT IF YOU CAUGHT SOMEBODY OR SOMEBODY WAS
8 CAUGHT WRITING GRAFFITI IN SHELLTOWN AND THEY WERE NOT A
9 MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN?
10 A. THEY PROBABLY GET SOCKED, PROBABLY JUST GET
11 HURT.
12 Q. WHY IS THAT?
13 A. BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT FROM SHELLTOWN.
14 Q. CAN ONLY PEOPLE FROM SHELLTOWN WRITE THINGS ON
15 WALLS IN SHELLTOWN?
16 A. YES.
17
18
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY -- WE KEEP HEARING THE WORDS
"FROM SHELLTOWN."
, I
I
19 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE FROM SHELLTOWN?

20 A. TO BE A GANG MEMBER FROM SHELLTOWN.
21 Q. SO IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU LIVE IN SHELLTOWN.
22 A. WELL, NOT EXACTLY.
,
,
23 Q. WHY DO YOU USE THE WORDS THAT YOU'RE FROM
J
24 SHELLTOWN IF YOU WERE A GANG MEMBER?

25 A. BECAUSE -- CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN. J
26 Q. SURE. DO YOU EVER ASK PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE

l
27
28
FROM?
A. YES. , l
r 1157
r 2
Q.
FROM?
WHY WOULD YOU ASK SOMEBODY WHERE THEY ARE
r 3
4
A.
Q.
BECAUSE YOU'RE ASKING WHERE THEY'RE FROM.
WHEN YOU ASK A PERSON WHERE THEY'RE FROM, DO
r
l
5
6
YOU CARE WHERE THEY LIVE?
A. NO.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES THAT QUESTION REALLY MEAN?
IT'S LIKE ASKING THEM WHAT HOOD ARE YOU FROM.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
DOES "HOOD" MEAN GANG?
YES.
r 11 Q. SO IF SOMEBODY ASKED YOU, "WHERE ARE YOU FROM,"
r 12
13
WOULD YOU TELL THEM YOUR HOME ADDRESS?
A. NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT WOULD YOU TELL THEM?
THE HOOD YOU'RE FROM, SHELLTOWN.
r 16
17
Q. COULD YOU TELL PEOPLE YOU WERE FROM SHELLTOWN
BEFORE YOU WERE JUMPED IN?
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q. SO BEFORE SHELLTOWN, IF SOMEBODY ASKED YOU
WHERE YOU WERE FROM, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T BANG.
COULD YOU ALSO SAY NOWHERE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE FROM NOWHERE?
r 25 A. YOU'RE NOT FROM NOWHERE. YOU'RE NOT JUMPED
r 26
27
INTO NO GANG.
Q. SO AFTER YOU GET JUMPED IN THE FIRST TIME IN
r 28 SOUTH CREST, YOU WERE WRITING YOUR NAMES ON WALLS?
r
1158
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT SORTS OF THINGS WOULD YOU WRITE ABOUT
3 SHELLTOWN ON WALLS?
4 A. JUST "SHELLTOWN 38."
5 Q. HOW WOULD YOU WRITE 38?
6 A. I'LL WRITE IT WITH NUMBERS OR JUST PUT "ST" AND
7 "38." THAT'S IT.
8 Q. ARE THERE DIFFERENT WAYS TO WRITE "SHELLTOWN
9 38"?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE NUMBERS 19, 20?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHAT IS 19, 20?
14 A. "ST."
15 Q. WHAT DOES "ST" STAND FOR?
16 A. 19, 20.
17 Q. DO BOTH STAND FOR SHELLTOWN?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. ARE THOSE BECAUSE 19 AND 20 ARE S AND T IN THE
20 ALPHABET?
1 J
21 A. YES.
22 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF 3V3?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHAT IS 3V3?
25 A. 38TH STREET. l
26 Q. IS THAT 3, AND V FOR THE NUMBER 5?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND 3 TO MAKE THAT 8?
l
l
r 1159
r 1 A. YES.
r
l 2 Q. HAVE YOU ALSO SEEN -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT ROMAN
3 NUMERALS ARE?
F
l 4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BUNCH OF X'S AND I'S?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
HAVE YOU SEEN THAT TO REPRESENT 38?
YES.
r 9
10
Q. HOW ABOUT THE SHELL?
r
A. YES.
11 Q. CAN YOU DRAW A PICTURE OF A SHELL?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WELL, NOT NO MORE. I USED TO.
WERE YOU GOOD AT DRAWING PICTURES OF SHELLS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NOT REALLY.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE PICTURE OF A SHELL DRAWN BY
r 16
17
OTHER PEOPLE?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. WHAT DOES THAT STAND FOR?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
IT'S A SHELL. IT'S SHELLTOWN.
HOW DO YOU SAY SHELLTOWN IN SPANISH?
r 21
22
A. OTHER THAN CONCHA PUEBLO.
THE COURT: NEED A SPELLING, PLEASE.
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
WORD PUEBLO,
C-0-N-C-H-A, AND THEN THE SECOND
P-U-E-B-L-0. DOES IT END WITH AN "A" OR AN
r 25 "0," IF YOU KNOW?
r
26 THE WITNESS: "0."
27 THE COURT: CONCHA PUEBLO?
r
1160

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. WHAT AREAS OF SHELLTOWN WOULD YOU HANG OUT
4 IN?
5 A. WELL, NOT AREAS.
6 Q. WHAT WERE YOUR FAVORITE AREAS?
7 A. OCEAN VIEW PARK AND SOUTH CREST PARK.
8 Q. DID YOU WRITE THINGS ON WALLS IN THOSE PARKS?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID YOU EVER GET ARRESTED FOR DOING THAT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED, WAS THIS WHILE MOISES
13
14
WAS ALIVE OR AFTER MOISES DIED?
A. IT WAS AFTER HE DIED. , i
15 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU WERE ARRESTED?
,
16 A. I WAS TOOKEN DOWNTOWN DEPARTMENT.
17 Q. WHAT HAPPENED DOWNTOWN?
18 A. SAW THIS -- THEY ASKED ME A BUNCH OF l
19 QUESTIONS -- WELL, THE DETECTIVE RIGHT HERE THAT'S RIGHT

20 NEXT TO YOU, THEY ASKED ME A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT
1 1
21 SMOKEY, SPEEDY AND LIL CROOKS.

22 MR. TROCHA: AND FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR,
l
23 HE'S REFERRING TO DETECTIVE LAMBERT TO MY RIGHT. ~
!
J
24 THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL SO REFLECT.
25 BY MR. TROCHA: 1)
26 Q. WHERE WERE YOU ARRESTED?
27 A. IN OCEAN VIEW PARK. l
28 Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?
l
l
r 1161
r 1 A. WELL, I WAS WRITING ON THE STREETS.
r 2 Q. IS THERE A WORD FOR THAT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS IT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
TAGGING.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN THE PICTURE
r 7
8
BEHIND YOU, ANDRES, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT SOME OTHER
PEOPLE FROM SOUTH CREST PARK.
r 9
10 SHELL TOWN?
DO YOU KNOW OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE MEMBERS OF
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES?
OTHER PEOPLE?
r 14
15
Q.
A.
YES.
WELL, THERE'S A LOT --A BUNCH OF GUYS THAT I
r 16
17
KNOW. THERE IS LIL CHINO, SPIDER, MUERTO, MANNY, SOME
GIRLS FROM SHELLTOWN.
r 18 Q. WHAT ARE THE GIRLS THAT YOU KNOW?
r 19
20
A. WELL, WHEN I USED TO KICK WITH THEM, IT WAS LIL
ONE, COOKIE AND LOCA -- LIL LOCA.
r 21
22
Q.
CLARA?
DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO GOES BY THE NAME OF
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW CLARA -- IF CLARA HAS A BOYFRIEND?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHAT IS HER BOYFRIEND'S NAME?
JOHNNY OR MENACE.
r 28 Q. MENACE?
r
1162
1 A. YES. m.
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW CLARA'S REAL NAME?
3 A. NOPE. ~
4 Q. ARE BOTH OF THESE PEOPLE FROM SHELLTOWN?

5 A. YES. ~
6 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF RACCOON?

~
7 A. YES.
""9
9 A. NO.
10 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF KNUCKLES?
~
11 A. YES.
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT IS IT?
RAUL.
l
16 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY THAT GOES BY SCRAPPY? l
17 A. YES.
~
I
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL NAME? !
19 A. NO.
20 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY THAT GOES BY THE NAME OF l i
21 SPORTY?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL NAME?
NO.
l
25 Q. DID YOU KNOW SOMEBODY THAT WENT BY LIL CROOKS? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD OF THAT NAME? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r
\
1163
r 1 Q. YOU'VE ALREADY MENTIONED HEX.
r 2
3
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT ABOUT ANT?

~
I 4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME ANT?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL NAME?
NO.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE THAT GOES BY SHY MAN?
YES.
r
l 11 Q. DO YOU KNOW THEIR REAL NAME?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE THAT GOES BY TOKER OR
r 14
15
TOKES?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW THEIR REAL NAME?
NO.
r 18 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY THAT GOES BY TEMPER?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
IS TEMPER A MAN OR A WOMAN OR A BOY OR GIRL?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
GIRL.
AND DO YOU KNOW THIS GIRL'S REAL NAME?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS IT?
r 25 A. EVELYN.
r 26
27
Q.
BARLOS?
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF
r 28 A. YES.
r
1164
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW BARLOS'S REAL NAME?

2 A. IT'S CARLOS. I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S WHAT I MET
3 HIM.
4 Q. WHEN DID YOU MEET HIM?
5 A. LIKE, OH, FROM THIS DAY, I MET HIM THREE YEARS
6 AGO.
7 Q. IS SARLOS FROM SHELLTOWN?
8 A. WELL, THAT I KNEW, YES.
9 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF SPEEDY GOES BY ANY OTHER NAMES?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT OTHER NAMES DO YOU KNOW?
12 A. CHUNKY.
13 Q. THIS PICTURE THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT
14 BEHIND YOU, IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU MET SPEEDY?
15 A. NO.
r=l1
16 Q. YOU HAD MET HIM BEFORE? j
\
17 A. YES.
18 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR ARREST. 1
19 AFTER YOU WERE ARRESTED, DID YOU HAVE TO GO , !
I
20 JUVENILE HALL OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? I
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU WERE ARRESTED AND AFTER
~
23 YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE?
J
24 A. I WENT IN JUVENILE HALL.
25 Q. HOW LONG? l
26 A. NINE MONTHS OR EIGHT MONTHS.
27 Q. IN JUVENILE HALL? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 1165
r 1 Q. WHERE DID YOU DO THIS TIME?
r 2 A. CAMP BARRETT.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHAT IS CAMP BARRETT?
IT'S A FACILITY.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
IS IT A CAMPGROUND OR IS IT A JAIL?
IT'S LIKE A CAMPGROUND.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DO YOU SING SONGS AND ROAST MARSHMALLOWS?
NO.
r 9 Q. WHAT DO YOU DO AT CAMP BARRETT?
r
10 A. WE DO A LOT OF EXERCISE.
11 Q. CAN YOU LEAVE IF YOU WANT TO?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NOT THAT -- NO.
IS IT LIKE JUVENILE HALL OUT IN A CAMPGROUND?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AND HOW MANY MONTHS WERE YOU AT CAMP BARRETT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
IN CAMP BARRETT, I WAS FOR LIKE FOUR MONTHS.
HOW MANY MONTHS WERE YOU AT JUVENILE HALL?
r 18 A. LIKE AROUND FIVE.
r 19
20
Q. DID YOU SEE OR MEET ANYBODY FROM SHELLTOWN
WHILE IN JUVENILE HALL OR AT CAMP BARRETT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO DID YOU RUN INTO?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
HEFTY, LIL SPANKY, BLANCO AND TOKER.
WHEN YOU GOT OUT, IS THAT WHEN YOU MOVED TO
r 25 MEXICO?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU GO TO MEXICO ON YOUR OWN OR DID YOUR
r 28 PARENTS SEND YOU?
r
1166
1 A. THEY SEND ME.

2 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY SENT YOU?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHY?
5 A. BECAUSE I WAS IN TOO MUCH TROUBLE.
6 Q. WITH THE GANG?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WITHOUT GOING TO SCHOOL?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. IS THAT AFTER YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE ABOUT
11
12
13
WHAT YOU SAW IN OCEAN VIEW PARK?
A.
Q.
YES.
ANDRES, DO YOU STILL CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE A
,
15 A. NO.
16 Q. WHY ARE YOU NOT A MEMBER ANYMORE?
17 A. BECAUSE I GUESS I'M SNITCHING ON THEM.
18 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO SNITCH? 1
19 A. I'M TELLING THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.
20
21
22
Q.
A.
Q.
WHAT THINGS?
JUST THE MURDER THAT HAPPENED WITH SMOKEY.
ARE THERE RULES WHEN YOU WERE A MEMBER OF
, l
23
24
SHELL TOWN?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE RULES? l
26 A. JUST RULES THAT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW, LIKE JUST
27 IF YOU SEE YOUR ENEMY, JUST TACKLE HIM, PUNCH HIM OR l J
28 WHATEVER, SHOOT HIM, WHATEVER YOU CAN.

l
l
r 1167
r 1 Q. WHAT ARE SOME ENEMIES OF SHELLTOWN?

r 2 A. LOGAN, NATIONAL CITY, ENCANTO, 7-3, AND A BUNCH
3 0-K. AND THAT'S ABOUT IT.
r'
I 4 Q. WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SAYING "WHERE YOU
r 5
6
FROM."
IF YOU ARE IN SHELLTOWN AND YOU SAW SOMEBODY
r 7
8
AND WALKED UP TO THEM AND ASKED THEM WHERE THEY ARE FROM
AND THAT PERSON SAID "LOGAN," WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?
r 9 A. YOU JUST SMACK -- WELL, YOU JUST HAVE TO PUNCH
r
10 HIM, OR WHATEVER YOU HAVE, YOU JUST TRY TO KILL THEM OR
11 HURT THEM.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHY?
BECAUSE LOGAN AND SHELLTOWN DON'T GET ALONG.
r 14
15
Q. WHAT IF YOU DIDN'T ATTACK, SHOOT OR PUNCH THE
PERSON FROM LOGAN?
r 16
17
A.
RUMORS AROUND.
WELL, PEOPLE WILL KNOW BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF
r 18 Q. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU DIDN'T DO THAT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
PROBABLY GET CHECKED.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE CHECKED?
r 21
22
A. THEY JUST TELL YOU WHY YOU DIDN'T DO NOTHING OR
THEY JUST TELL YOU A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS OR YOU JUST GET
r 23
24
BEAT UP.
Q. IS THIS BY MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN GANG?
r 25 A. YES.
r
26 Q. HAVE YOU BEEN CHECKED BEFORE?
27 A. ONLY ONCE.
r 28 Q. WAS THIS BEFORE OR AFTER -- WAS THIS WHEN
r
1168
1 MOISES WAS ALIVE OR WHEN MOISES WAS DEAD?

2 A. WHEN MOISES WAS DEAD.
3 Q. WHY DID YOU GET CHECKED?
4 A. BECAUSE I WAS WRITING TOO MUCH ON THE STREETS.
5 Q. WHO CHECKED YOU?
6 A. IT WAS CARTOON AND ANT.
7 Q. HOW DID YOU GET CHECKED?
8 A. THEY JUST TOLD ME TO DON'T WRITE A LOT IN
9 SHELLTOWN.
10 Q. DID YOU GET BEAT UP?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. IS CHECKING THE SAME AS JUMPING IN?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. CAN YOU GET BEAT UP IF YOU GET CHECKED?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DOES IT DEPEND ON WHAT YOU DID?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER RULES THAT SHELLTOWN 1
19 FOLLOWS? , J
20 A. RULES? IS -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "WHAT OTHER
21 RULES"?
22 Q. IS THERE A RULE AGAINST SNITCHING?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS THAT RULE?
l
25 A. YOU GET GREEN LIGHT. l
26 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
27 A. YOU GET GREEN LIGHT. l
28 Q. GREEN LIGHT?
l
l
r 1169
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO GET GREEN LIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
JUST YOU -- THEY TRY TO KILL YOU.
DOES IT MATTER WHAT YOU'RE SNITCHING ABOUT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW DOES THAT MATTER?
r 7
8
A. BECAUSE IF YOU'RE SNITCHING ON ONE OF THE
SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS, THEY DON'T LIKE THAT.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE LIKE YOU'RE SNITCHING. YOU'RE TELLING
r 11 WHAT HAPPENED.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
HOW DO YOU SNITCH?
BY TELLING THE -- WELL, THE CALIFORNIA SYSTEM
r 14
15
OR JUST THE POLICE, DETECTIVES.
Q. WHAT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
WHAT I'M DOING?
IS TALKING IN COURT SNITCHING?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
IS TALKING TO THE POLICE SNITCHING?
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
IS TALKING TO PROBATION SNITCHING?
WELL, YEAH. KIND OF, YEAH.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
IS TALKING TO ANOTHER GANG MEMBER SNITCHING?
ANOTHER GANG MEMBER FROM SHELLTOWN?
r 25 Q. YES.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
WELL, NO.
SO IF YOU WERE TALKING TO LIL SPANKY ABOUT
r 28 SOMETHING, THAT WOULD NOT BE SNITCHING?
r
1170
1 A. NO.
2 Q. WHAT IF YOU TOLD LIL SPANKY, SAY, ABOUT THIS
3 CASE AND LIL SPANKY WENT AND TOLD THE POLICE. WOULD LIL
4 SPANKY BE SNITCHING?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WOULD YOU BE IN TROUBLE FOR TELLING LIL SPANKY
7 WHAT HE TOLD THE POLICE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHY?
10 A. BECAUSE IT'S LIKE YOU'RE TELLING HIM AND HE
11 GOES AND TELLS THE POLICE, AND, WELL, PEOPLE KNOW.
12 Q. ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO KEEP THINGS QUIET?
13 A. WELL, YES.
14 Q. ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TELL THE POLICE THAT YOU'RE ~
!
J
15 A GANG MEMBER?
16 A. WELL, NO.
17 Q. WHY NOT?
18 A. BECAUSE YOU'RE BURNING YOURSELF OUT.
19 Q. ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TELL THE POLICE IF OTHER M')
,
)
20 PEOPLE ARE GANG MEMBERS? J
21 A. WELL, NO.
I
J
22 Q. WOULD THAT BE SNITCHING?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WOULD YOU TELL -- ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TELL THE
25 POLICE YOUR NICKNAME? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WHY NOT? l
28 A. BECAUSE YOU'RE SNITCHING ON YOURSELF.
l
l
r 1171
r 1 Q. SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SNITCH ON YOURSELF?
r 2 A. YES.
r
3 Q. ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TALK TO THE POLICE AT ALL?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q. SO WHEN THE POLICE CAME IN THIS CASE AND
ARRESTED YOU AFTER TAGGING, WHY DID YOU TALK TO THE
r 7
8
POLICE?
A. BECAUSE THEY JUST TALKED TO ME AND THEY TOLD ME
r 9
10
THAT -- THEY JUST TOLD ME THAT -- WELL, AT FIRST I
DIDN'T WANT TO SAY NOTHING. THEN THEY STARTED TELLING
r 11 ME STUFF.
r 12
13
WELL, THE DETECTIVE NEXT TO YOU TOLD ME TO JUST
SAY IT, AND I WAS LIKE, "NAH," AND THEN HE STARTED
r 14
15
ASKING ME A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS AND SHOWED ME PICTURES
ABOUT GUYS FROM SHELLTOWN, WHO WERE THEY, AND, YEAH,
r 16
17
LIKE, WHO WERE THEY. AND HE TOLD ME WE WILL BE THERE
ALL DAY IN THE ROOM TALKING ABOUT THE MURDER.
r 18 Q. DID YOU WANT TO TALK TO THEM?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
WELL, NO.
YET YOU ENDED UP TALKING TO THEM.
r. 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THEM, DID YOU LIE TO
r 23
24
THEM AT FIRST?
A. WELL, SOME THINGS I LIED TO THEM.
r 25 Q. DID YOU CHANGE THOSE THINGS LATER WHEN YOU
r
26 TALKED TO THE POLICE?
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. DID THEY MAKE YOU TALK?
r
1172
1 A. NO.
2 Q. DID THEY BEAT YOU UP?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. DID THEY THREATEN YOU?
5 A. NO.
6 Q. DID THEY MAKE YOU PROMISES?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. DID THEY SAY YOU WOULD GET OUT OF JAIL AND NOT
9 GET INTO TROUBLE AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF IF YOU TOLD
10 US WHAT WE WANT TO HEAR?
~
I
\
11 A. NO.
12 Q. THE STUFF THEY MADE YOU SAY, WAS IT THE TRUTH?
13 A. YES. l
14 Q. DID YOU WANT TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH?
15 A. WELL, I DIDN'T WANT TO TELL THEM.
~
16 Q. YET YOU ENDED UP TELLING THEM THE TRUTH ANYWAY. i
J
17 A. YES.
18 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, SHOULD WE TAKE A BREAK 1
19 NOW OR
20 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE A
21 RECESS FOR 15 MINUTES. WE'LL RECONVENE AT QUARTER AFTER ~
I
22 THE HOUR. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. PLEASE LEAVE
23 THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS. THANK YOU.
25 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. l
26 THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL
27 PARTIES AND COUNSEL PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED ARE PRESENT. l
28 YOU MAY SEE A NEW FACE OVER THERE AT THE
l
1
r 1173
r
1 DEFENSE COUNSEL, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THIS IS MR. JOE
r 2
3
MALDONADO.
MENTIONED.
HE IS THE DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR THAT I
r 4 YOU MAY RECALL DURING THE VOIR DIRE PROCESS I
r 5
6
SAID THAT JUST AS THE PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED TO HAVE AN
INVESTIGATOR OFFICER, IN THIS CASE DETECTIVE LAMBERT,
r 7
8
PRESENT, SO IS THE DEFENSE.
DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR.
MR. MALDONADO IS THE
YOU MAY SEE HIM FROM TIME TO TIME
r 9
10
THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL, AND YOU MAY SEE HIM COMING AND
GOING THROUGHOUT THE PROCEEDINGS, AND HE IS WELCOME TO
r 11 DO THAT AS UNOBTRUSIVELY AS POSSIBLE.
r 12
13
MR. MALDONADO, WELCOME.
WITNESS STAND.
ANDRES IS ON THE
r 14
15
{PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 232, GROUP PHOTOGRAPH, WAS
r 16 BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. ANDRES, BETWEEN THE BREAK, WE FIXED THE NUMBERS
17
r 18 ON THE TV BEHIND YOU. IT NOW SAYS 231 WITH EXHIBIT 231
r 19
20
IN FRONT OF YOU.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 232 WHICH IS
r 21
22
ANOTHER PHOTO OF THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE AT THE SPRING
VALLEY HOUSE. THAT IS NOW ON THE TV BEHIND YOU.
r 23
24
WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IS THE SAME PEOPLE THAT
WE'VE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT?
r 25 A. YES.
r
26 Q. NOW YOU'RE JUST STANDING UP.
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. WHAT ARE PEOPLE DOING WITH THEIR HANDS IN THAT
r
1174
1 PHOTO?
2 A. THEY'RE THROWING UP SHELLTOWN.
3 Q. ARE THOSE SIGNS OR SYMBOLS FOR SHELLTOWN?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WHAT CAN WE SEE?
6 A. YOU SEE THEY'RE THROWING UP A 2 -- TWO 20'S.
7 IT'S A 38.
8 Q. CAN YOU SHOW US WITH YOUR HANDS HOW TO DO WHAT
9 THEY'RE DOING IN THE PHOTO. l I
10 A. LIKE THIS. -1
\
11 Q. WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH YOUR HANDS IS -- HOLD IT
12 UP FOR ME SO I CAN DESCRIBE IT FOR THE COURT. YOU ARE ~
I
13 MAKING CIRCLES WITH YOUR INDEX AND MIDDLE FINGERS WITH
14 YOUR THUMB, AND YOU'RE USING YOUR RING FINGERS EXTENDED
15 OUT AT A 45-DEGREE ANGLE AND WITH YOUR PINKIES COMING
16 OUT AT A 90-AGREE ANGLE?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. AND WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT? WHAT DOES THAT 1
19 MEAN?
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
IT'S THE 3 AND THE 8.
WHERE IS THE 3?
RIGHT HERE. THESE TWO FINGERS MAKES A 3, AND
,
23
24
RIGHT HERE MAKES THE 8.
Q. THE CIRCLES WITH YOUR THUMBS TOGETHER MAKE THE
l
25 8? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. NOW, WE'VE USED THE NAMES SCRAPPY, KNUCKLES l
28 SPEEDY AND SMOKEY.
l
l
I 1175
r 1 HOW DID YOU MEET OR GET TO KNOW SMOKEY?
r 2
3
A. WELL, I USED TO -- I USED TO GO TO THE BEACH A
LOT, AND I JUST MET THESE GUYS THERE. WELL, ONE DAY I
r 4 WAS WALKING ON THE STREET, AND MY BROTHER LEFT ME. HE
r 5
6
USED TO WORK AT WENDY'S NEAR BY POINT LOMA, AND I
DROPPED OFF AND THEY JUST SEEN ME BECAUSE I WAS ALL WITH
l1i'1
7 GRAY AND BLACK, AND THEY BANGED ON ME. AND I WAS LIKE,
L 8 "I'M SHELLTOWN," AND THEY TOLD ME THEY WAS FROM
r 9
10
SHELLTOWN TOO.
Q. WHO WERE THESE GUYS?
r 11 A. THAT WAS TOKER, SMOKEY, KNUCKLES AND SOME OTHER
r 12
13
GUYS.
Q. WHERE IN POINT LOMA?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
POINT LOMA HIGH SCHOOL.
YOU TOLD US YOU STOPPED GOING TO SCHOOL AFTER
r 16
17
THE 6TH GRADE.
A. YEAH.
r 18 Q. WHY WERE YOU AT POINT LOMA HIGH SCHOOL?
r 19
20 WAS
A. SOMETIMES I USED TO GO TO THE BEACH, AND I
I USED TO GO TO THE BEACH A LOT, WANDERING
r 21
22
AROUND.
Q. THAT'S OVER BY POINT LOMA HIGH?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW IF THESE GUYS WENT TO POINT LOMA
r 25 HIGH AS STUDENTS?
A. WELL, NO.
r
26
27 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW?
r 28 A. NO.
r
1176
~
I
1 Q. ONE OF THESE GUYS WAS SMOKEY?

2 A. WELL, THESE GUYS?
3 Q. NO, NO. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PHOTOGRAPH ~
I
4 ANYMORE. LET ME TAKE THOSE FROM YOU.
5 THE TIME WHEN -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TIME
6 WHEN YOU MET SMOKEY IN POINT LOMA AT POINT LOMA HIGH
7 SCHOOL.
8 WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU MET SMOKEY?
9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU SEE HIM AT ANY OTHER TIMES BEFORE HE ,
,
!
11 WAS KILLED?
12 A. I SEEN HIM LIKE ONCE, TWICE PROBABLY.
13 Q. WAS THIS AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WAS HE A FRIEND OF YOURS?
~
16 A. WELL, I DIDN'T REALLY, LIKE, KICK IT WITH HIM !
17 ALL THE TIME.

18
19
Q.
A.
DID YOU KNOW WHO HIS FRIENDS WERE?
WELL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? LIKE FRIENDS? ,
20
21
22
Q.
RIGHT?
A.
YEAH.
YES.
I MEAN YOU'RE ALL IN THE SAME GANG,
, i
23 Q. ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE IN THE GANG THAT ARE

24 FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER BUT NOT REALLY CLOSE FRIENDS
25 WITH OTHER PEOPLE? l
26 A. REPEAT THAT AGAIN? CAN YOU REPEAT IT?
27 Q. SURE. DO YOU HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE IN THE l
28 GANG?
l
l
r'
l
1177
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE NOT IN THE GANG?
YES.
r
3
4 Q. YOU TOLD US THAT SMOKEY -- YOU DON'T REALLY
r 5
6
KICK IT WITH HIM -- YOU DIDN'T REALLY KICK IT WITH HIM
THAT MUCH.
7 A. YES.
L 8 Q. DO YOU THINK -- WOULD YOU TELL US WHETHER OR
r 9 NOT SMOKEY WAS A FRIEND OF YOURS?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
WELL, NO.
WHO WOULD SMOKEY NORMALLY KICK IT WITH?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WITH GUYS IN SHELLTOWN.
WHO FROM SHELLTOWN?
r 14
15
A. WELL, THE GUYS I SEEN HIM WITH, IT WAS USUALLY
SCRAPPY, KNUCKLES AND RACCOON AND TOKER.
r. 16
17
Q. GOING TO THE NIGHT OF THE KILLING, WHAT WERE
YOU DOING THAT DAY BEFORE THE SUN WENT DOWN?
r 18 A. I WAS DRINKING BEERS.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT KIND OF BEERS?
MICKEYS AND 40-0UNCE BEERS.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
LARGER BOTTLES?
YES.
r 23
24 DAY?
Q. HOW MANY BEERS DID YOU DRINK THAT DAY ALL
r 25 A.
MUCH BEER.
WELL, I DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW MUCH HE SAID, HOW
IT WAS AROUND LIKE PROBABLY TWO, THREE
r
26
27 BEERS, 40'S.
28 Q. AND WHEN DID YOU START DRINKING?
[
r
1178
1 A. I STARTED DRINKING -- WELL I STARTED

2 DRINKING -- WELL, I WAS -- USED TO LIKE TO DRINK ALL THE
3 TIME.
4 Q. DID YOU DRINK WHEN THE SUN WAS UP?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. DID YOU KEEP DRINKING AFTER THE SUN WENT DOWN?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. YOU STOPPED AFTER THE SUN WENT DOWN?
A. YES.
,
9
10 Q. DID YOU SMOKE ANY MARIJUANA THAT DAY?

\
11 A. YES. 1
12 Q. HOW MUCH MARIJUANA DID YOU SMOKE? ,., !

j
13 A. LIKE PROBABLY FOUR GRAMS.
,
14 Q. FOUR GRAMS? HOW DID YOU SMOKE IT?
15 A. ON A BLUNT, ON A SWISHER.
16 Q. WHAT IS A BLUNT?
17 A. SWISHER SWEET IS A TOBACCO BLUNT, AND YOU BUY
18 THEM AT THE LIQUOR STORES, AND YOU JUST CUT IT STRAIGHT
19 AND TAKE ALL THE TOBACCO OUT AND PUT THE WEED AND JUST
20 SMOKE IT.
21 Q. DID YOU DO THIS BY YOURSELF?
22
23
A.
Q.
NO.
DID OTHER PEOPLE SMOKE WITH YOU?
, J
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHO ELSE SMOKED WITH YOU? l
26 A. IT WAS KNUCKLES AND SOME OTHER GUYS. IT WAS
27 TWO GUYS I DIDN'T MET. l
28 Q. WAS THIS IN SHELLTOWN?
l
l
r 1179
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. WHERE IN SHELLTOWN?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
IN OCEAN VIEW PARK.
WAS THIS WHEN THE SUN WAS UP OR WHEN THE SUN
r 5
6
WAS DOWN?
A. WHEN WE WERE SMOKING WEED?

r' 7 Q. YES.
1
8 A. THE SUN WAS UP.
r 9 Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO OCEAN VIEW PARK, WAS THE SUN
r 10
11
UP?
A. WHEN I GOT THERE?
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YES.
IT WAS GETTING DARK ALREADY.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
IT WAS STARTING TO GET DARK?
YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
HAD YOU ALREADY SMOKED WEED AT THAT TIME?
SMOKED WEED.
r 18 Q. DID YOU ALREADY SMOKE THE BLUNT BEFORE YOU GOT
r 19
20
TO OCEAN VIEW PARK OR AFTER YOU GOT TO OCEAN VIEW PARK?
A. WELL, I SMOKED -- WELL
r 21
22
Q.
A.
OR BOTH?
YEAH, I WAS ALREADY HIGH, I GUESS.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU GET TO OCEAN VIEW PARK?
BECAUSE SOME GUY CALLED ME.
r 25 Q. WHO CALLED YOU?
r
26 A. THAT WAS SCRAPPY AND SOME OTHER GUY.
27 Q. THEY CALLED YOU ON THE PHONE?
r 28 A. NO. THEY PASSED THROUGH THERE TO MY HOUSE.
r
1180
~ I
1 Q. ON THE WAY TO THE PARK?

~
I
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHERE DID YOU LIVE AT THAT TIME?
4 A. I USED TO LIVE IN 40TH AND NATIONAL.
5 Q. WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU? ~
I
6 A. THEY JUST HAD A PARTY.
~
7 Q. DID YOU GO WITH THEM OR DID YOU GO LATER? 1
f
I
8 A. I WENT LATER.
9 Q. DID YOU GO ALONE OR WITH PEOPLE?
10 A. I WENT BY MYSELF. ,_,
,
I
11 Q. HOW DID YOU GET THERE? J
12 A. WALKING.
13
14
Q.
A.
WHAT STREET DID YOU WALK ON?
I WALKED ON NATIONAL AND I HIT 40TH AND I HIT ,
15
16
BAKER ELEMENTARY AND I JUST WENT STRAIGHT.
Q. YOU PASSED BY BAKER ELEMENTARY?
\'\,
1
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DOES 40TH TAKE YOU RIGHT TO THE PARK?
19 A. YES. ~
,
!
I
20 Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, WHAT TIME OF DAY WAS

21 IT? WAS THE SUN UP? WAS IT GOING DOWN? OR WAS IT
22 ALREADY DOWN?
23 A. WHEN I GOT TO THE PARK, IT WAS BARELY COMING ~
1
24 DOWN.
twJJ
25 Q. IT WAS STARTING TO COME DOWN OR IT WAS ALREADY i
26 DOWN?
27 A. IT WAS ALREADY KIND OF DARK.
1 1
28 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU GOT INTO THE PARK?
l
l
r 1181
r 1 A. SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE.
r 2 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE?
r 3
4
A.
THERE.
I'M NOT EXACTLY RIGHT HOW MUCH PEOPLE WERE
r 5
6
Q. DO YOU SEE THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE THAT WE
TALKED ABOUT EARLIER TODAY?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS IT MORE OR LESS THAN THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE?
r 9
10
A. OH, IT WAS PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT MORE.
MR. TROCHA: AND I WAS REFERRING TO THE JURY
r
\ 11 PANEL, YOUR HONOR.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SO REFLECT.
r 14
15
Q.
PEOPLE?
DID YOU KNOW THE NAMES OF ANY OF THESE
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT NAMES DID YOU KNOW?
r 18 A. THAT WERE IN THE PARK?
r 19
20
Q.
A.
YES.
IT WAS KNUCKLES, TOKER, RACCOON. IT WAS EITHER
r 21
22
YOGI OR CROOKS, SPEEDY, SMOKEY AND COUPLE GIRLS.
Q. WHAT GIRLS?
r 23
24
A. WELL, THE ONES THAT I KNEW, IT WAS LIL ONE
AND -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE OTHER GIRL'S NAME.
r 25 Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, WHERE WERE THEY IN
r 26
27
THE PARK?
A. THEY WERE IN THE BENCHES.
r 28 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU AT THIS TIME TO SEE SOME
r
1 PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE PARK?
1182
,
2 A. YES.
3 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WITH PHOTOGRAPHS. I HAVE
4 A STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS; FOR THE RECORD IT'S PEOPLE'S 244
5 THROUGH PEOPLE'S 262. I'M JUST GOING TO PUT THOSE IN ~
,
I
j
6 FRONT OF YOU, AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IT, I WANT YOU TO
7 FLIP TO THE RIGHT PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU SEE ON THE TV
i
8 BEHIND YOU, ANDRES.

9 A. ALL RIGHT. 1
10 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 244, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK,
~)
11 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) )
12 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, THE FIRST ONE,

13 YOUR HONOR, IS 244. IT'S A PICTURE FROM THE SOUTH END
14 OF THE PARK, LOOKING NORTH AT WHAT APPEAR TO BE TWO
15 PICNIC TABLES.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. IS THIS A PART OF THE PARK YOU WERE IN, ANDRES?
18 A. YES. 1
19 Q. WHERE WERE THE PEOPLE IN THE PARK? ~I
20 A. IN THOSE BENCHES AND THE TREES IN FRONT OF THE 1
21 BENCHES.
22 Q. WOULD THOSE BE THE TREES WE CAN SEE ON THE
l
23 RIGHT OF THE PHOTO? 1 J
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHERE WERE YOU IN THE PARK WHEN YOU FIRST
26 SHOWED UP?
27 A. I WAS DOWN -- I WAS FURTHER DOWN. l
28 Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "FURTHER DOWN"?
1
1
r 1183
r 1 A. I WAS NOT RIGHT THERE. I WAS MORE LIKE
r 2 THERE WAS SOME MORE TREES DOWN FROM THOSE TREES.
r 3
4
Q. WHEN WE SAY "DOWN," WE'RE LOOKING NOW THE OTHER
WAY AT THE PARK. IS THIS LOOKING DOWN?
r 5
6
A. YES.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 247, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK,
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA: AND FOR THE RECORD, WE'RE LOOKING
r 9 AT PEOPLE'S 247, WHICH IS FROM THE NORTH LOOKING SOUTH
r 10
11
IN THE PARK AT THE SAME BENCHES.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q.
A.
THIS IS WHEN YOU FIRST CAME IN?
WELL, NO.
I 14
15
Q.
A.
WHEN WAS THIS?
RIGHT HERE, WHEN THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE
r 16
17
RIGHT THERE.
Q. WHERE WERE THE PEOPLE?
r 18 A. RIGHT HERE -- WELL, IN THIS AREA WHERE THE
r 19
20
GRASS IS AT.
Q. WHERE THE WHAT IS AT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THE GRASS.
SO THE AREA WE'RE LOOKING AT, CAN YOU POINT TO
r 23
24
THE AREA FOR THE JURY ON THE TV WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE
AT.
r 25
26
A.
Q.
THESE BENCHES AND RIGHT HERE IN THESE TREES.
AND, IF YOU COULD, PLEASE SIT BACK IN THE
r 27 CHAIR.
r 28 FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS POINTED TO THE TWO
r
1184
1
1 PICNIC BENCHES AS WELL AS THE ROW OF TREES ON THE LEFT
2 SIDE.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. WHEN YOU CAME INTO THE PARK, ARE WE LOOKING AT ~ I
I
6 THE AREA YOU WALKED UP INTO?
,
7 A. WELL, THIS PICTURE?
8 Q. YES.
9
10
A.
Q.
NO.
LOOKING THROUGH THE PICTURES UP THERE, WHICH
, l
11
12
13
PICTURE CAN WE SEE THAT YOU DID WALK UP IN?
A.
Q.
IT WAS THIS PICTURE.
WHAT IS THE NUMBER ON IT?
, I
14 A. 261. ~
)
15
16
BATHROOMS IN PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
, ;
;
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. WE'RE LOOKING NOW AT PEOPLE'S 261, WHICH IS A
19 PICTURE OF WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED AS THE ,.,
I
20 BATHROOMS. .l
21 WHERE DID YOU WALK UP IN THIS PICTURE, ANDRES?

22 A. THROUGH RIGHT THERE, THE SIDEWALK WHERE THE
1
23
24
CAR'S AT ON THE WALKING WAY.
Q. WE CAN SEE THE STREET DOWN THERE ON THE
1
25 LEFT-HAND SIDE? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. THAT'S WHERE YOU WALKED INTO THE PARK? l
28 A. YES.
l
1
r 1185
r 1 Q. DID YOU WALK UP INTO THE BENCHES?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHAT DID YOU DO AT THE BENCHES?
JUST STARTED HANGING AROUND WITH THEM, JUST
r 5
6
SMOKING WEED AND DRINKING BEERS.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 246, PHOTOGRAPH OF PICNIC
r 7
8
BENCHES IN PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9
10
Q. I'M GOING TO LOOK NOW AT PEOPLE'S 246.
ANOTHER PICTURE OF THE BENCHES LOOKING FROM THE SOUTH,
IT'S
r 11 AND WE CAN SEE THE BATHROOMS ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE; IS
r 12
13
THAT RIGHT, ANDRES?
A. YES.
-r 14
15
Q. WERE YOU ON ONE OF THOSE BENCHES, SMOKING WEED
AND DRINKING BEERS?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
WHICH ONE, IF YOU REMEMBER?
r 18 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH ONE WAS IT.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
BUT IT WAS ONE OF THOSE TWO?
YEAH, IT WAS ONE OF THOSE TWO.
r 21
22
Q.
THE PARK?
WHAT WERE OTHER PEOPLE DOING AT THIS TIME IN
r 23
24
A.
WITH PEOPLE.
THEY WERE JUST DRINKING BEERS, HANGING AROUND
r 25 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE WORD "KICKBACK"?
r 26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
WHAT IS A KICKBACK?
IT'S LIKE WHEN YOU HANG AROUND. LIKE THE
[
r
I
1186
, J
I
1 SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS KICK IT, THEY ALL GROUP UP. ,.,
2 Q. WAS THIS A KICKBACK? i
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WERE THERE PEOPLE THERE THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW l
5 THE NAMES OF?
6
7
8
A.
Q.
THERE?
YES.
WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, WAS SPEEDY ALREADY
,
9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS SMOKEY ALREADY THERE? ,
11
12
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS KNUCKLES THERE? ,
13
14
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS SCRAPPY THERE? , .}
15
16
A.
Q.
NOT REALLY SURE IF HE WAS THERE.
HOW DID YOU DRINK BEER AT THE PARK?
, j
17 A. HOW?
18 Q. I MESSED UP. DID YOU DRINK BEER AT THE PARK?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT BEER WERE YOU DRINKING AT THE PARK? l
A. WELL, IT WAS DIFFERENT KINDS OF BEERS. I TOLD
21
22 YOU I DRANK THE MICKEYS. I DRANKED -- THEY GAVE ME SOME
1
23
24
LITTLE BEERS, LITTLE -- THEY WERE LIKE TECATE'S, AND I
DON'T KNOW WHAT THE OTHER BEER WAS.
1
25 Q. THE MICKEYS YOU HAD, WAS THIS BEFORE YOU WENT l
26 TO THE PARK?
27 A. YES. I WAS DRINKING IT ON THE WAY. l
28 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY 40'S AT THE PARK?
1
,
r 1187
r 1 A. JUST ONE MORE.
r 2 Q.
A.
WHAT KIND?
THAT WAS A KING COBRA.
r
3
4 Q. DID YOU DRINK ALL OF THAT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT WERE PEOPLE DOING IN THE PARK OTHER THAN
r 7
8
DRINKING BEER AND SMOKING WEED?
A. THEY WERE JUST TALKING TO EACH OTHER AND JUST
r 9
10
HANGING AROUND.
Q. DID YOU SEE ANY FIGHTS WHILE YOU WERE AT THE
r 11 PARK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WELL, THAT I SEEN, NO, I DIDN'T SEE NO FIGHTS.
DID YOU HEAR ANY FIGHTS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I PROBABLY HEARD IT.
WHAT DID YOU HEAR?
r 16
17
A. IT'S JUST PUNCH AND TUGGING -- WELL, NO, NOT
REALLY TUGGING. SOMEONE WAS JUST GETTING PUNCHED AND
r 18 THAT'S ABOUT IT.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DID YOU GET PUNCHED?
NO.
r 21
22
Q.
POINT?
DID YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE BATHROOM AT SOME
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY BEERS DO YOU THINK YOU DRANK BEFORE
r 25
26
YOU HAD TO GO TO THE BATHROOM IN THE PARK?
A. LIKE THREE OR FOUR BEERS.
r 27 Q. NOW, THE BATHROOMS THAT WE SEE IN THE PARK,
r 28 WERE THOSE OPEN, IF YOU KNOW?
r
1188
,
1 A. NO, I DON'T KNOW.
2 Q. DID YOU GO TO THE BATHROOM SOMEWHERE IN THE
3 PARK?
4
5
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
WHERE DID YOU GO TO THE BATHROOM IN THE PARK?
BY SOME TREES.
,
i
i
6
Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 247.
,
7
8 DO YOU SEE PEOPLE'S 247?

9
10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
PEOPLE'S 247, I BELIEVE WE TALKED ABOUT IT
BEFORE, BUT IT'S FROM THE NORTH END LOOKING SOUTH AT THE
,
I
J
i
J
12 ROW OF TREES ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE.

1
13
14
15
ANDRES?
A.
THESE PICTURES WERE TAKEN YESTERDAY, CORRECT,
YES.
,
16 Q. YOU WERE THERE WHEN WE WERE TAKING THESE
PICTURES, RIGHT?
1
17
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. CAN WE SEE IN PEOPLE'S 247 WHERE YOU WERE GOING
1
20
21
22
TO THE BATHROOM?
A.
Q.
YES.
CAN YOU GET UP AND POINT TO US -- POINT IT OUT
,
23 FOR US.
1
24 A. WELL, THERE WERE SOME TREES RIGHT HERE, BUT
25 THEY'RE NOT THERE NO MORE. THERE USED TO BE SOME TREES 1
26 RIGHT HERE. RIGHT THERE.
27 Q. YOU'RE INDICATING AN AREA BETWEEN WHAT APPEAR l
28 TO BE PINE TREES ON THE RIGHT AND THE ROW OF TREES ON
l
1
r 1189
r 1 THE LEFT?
r 2 A. YES.
r
3 Q. CAN YOU SEE A PERSON IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHERE IS THAT PERSON STANDING?
RIGHT THERE.
r 7
8
Q. AND YOU'RE INDICATING A MAN IN THE DISTANCE
BEHIND ONE OF THE PICNIC TABLES.
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YEAH.
IS THAT MAN STANDING WHERE YOU WERE PEEING?
r. 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT PERSON IS?
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO IS THAT?
IT'S CAMPOS.
r, 16 Q. SAL CAMPOS?
17 A. YES.
r 18 Q. FROM MY OFFICE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU TELL HIM AT THAT TIME THAT THAT'S WHERE
r 21
22
YOU WERE PEEING?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. IF YOU COULD, PLEASE SIT BACK DOWN.
BACK TO 244, MR. LOPEZ -- ANDRES.
LET'S GO
r 25
26 PEEING?
IS THIS A VIEW OF THE PARK FROM WHERE YOU WERE
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. YOU STOOD THERE AND YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE THIS,
r
1190
1 RIGHT?
,
2
3
A. YES.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 245, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, , I
,
1
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
!
6 Q. PEOPLE'S 245 IS AGAIN IN THE SAME LOCATION, BUT
7 LOOKING NORTH LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THE ROW OF TREES AT
8 THIS TIME.
,
9
10
11
PEEING?
A.
IS THIS FROM THE SAME PLACE THAT YOU WERE
WHICH ONE? THAT ONE?

, 1
12 Q. YES. IT MIGHT BE ON THE OTHER SIDE, ANDRES.

13 A. RIGHT HERE? WHERE I WAS PEEING, YEAH, IT WAS
14 RIGHT THERE.
l
15
16
Q. IN THIS PICTURE WE SEE A FENCE ON THE
RIGHT-HAND SIDE, CORRECT, ANDRES?
,
. l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT FENCE? l
19 A. SOME HOUSES.
20
21
22
Q.
A.
Q.
BETWEEN THE HOUSES IN THE PARK, WHAT IS THERE?
A ROAD.
IS IT DIRT?
,
l
~
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THIS KIND OF HOW THE PARK LOOKED ON THE
1
25 NIGHT YOU WERE THERE EXCEPT FOR IT BEING DAYTIME? 1
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND EXCEPT FOR THE TREES BEING MISSING THAT YOU 1
28 TOLD US ABOUT BEFORE?
l
1
r 1191
r 1 A. YES.
r 2
3
Q. PEOPLE'S 246, THIS IS, AGAIN, THE VIEW FROM THE
SOUTH, LOOKING NORTH AT BATHROOMS AS WELL AS THE
[ 4 BENCHES.
r 5
6
IS THIS AS FAR AS YOU COULD SEE FROM WHERE YOU
WERE PEEING, ANDRES?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU WERE PEEING, WHAT DIRECTION WERE YOU
r 9
10
FACING?
A. I WAS FACING TOWARDS THE HOUSES.
r. 11 Q. SO WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT 245, YOU WOULD BE

12 FACING THAT FENCE?
[ 13 A. YEAH, THE FENCE, YEAH.
r 14
15
Q. IF YOU WERE FACING THAT WAY, AS I AM FACING
NOW, COULD YOU SEE OVER YOUR LEFT SHOULDER IF YOU WERE
r 16
17
TO TURN YOUR HEAD?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. WHEN YOU LOOKED OVER YOUR LEFT SHOULDER, IS

19 THIS AS FAR AS YOU COULD SEE TO THE LEFT?
[ 20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT HAPPENED WHILE YOU WERE PEEING?
I JUST HEARD WHEN I WAS PEEING -- I WAS PEEING,
r 23
24
RIGHT, AND I JUST HEARD THE GUNSHOT. I TURNED AROUND.
I SEEN SPEEDY SHOOTING AT SMOKEY, AND I STARTED RUNNING.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
HOW MANY GUNSHOTS DID YOU FIRST HEAR?
WELL, BEFORE I STARTED RUNNING, IT WAS THE
r
\. 27 FIRST GUNSHOT.
r 28 Q. HOW MANY?
r
1192
, !
1 A. ONE.
2 Q. WERE THERE MORE THAN ONE GUNSHOTS? 1
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU HEARD THE FIRST ONE?
5 A. I -- WELL, I SEEN ANOTHER -- PEOPLE FROM ,.,
1
6 SHELLTOWN RUNNING, AND I JUST STARTING FOLLOWING THEM,
7 STARTED RUNNING WITH THEM.
8 Q. WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOT, DID YOU TURN TO
~
9
10
11
LOOK TO SEE WHERE IT CAME FROM?
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DID YOU SEE?
, J
12 A. SPEEDY.
13 Q. WHAT WAS SPEEDY DOING?
14
15
A.
Q.
SHOOTING.
WHO WAS HE SHOOTING?
1
16
17
A.
Q.
SMOKEY.
WHEN WE WERE LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 246, CAN YOU
1
18 SEE SOMEBODY IN THE DISTANCE THAT IS STANDING WHERE 1
19 SPEEDY WAS STANDING WHEN THE SHOOTING HAPPENED?
20 A. YES. 1 ~
21 Q. CAN YOU POINT THAT PERSON OUT TO THE JURY.

j
22 A. RIGHT HERE.
23
24
Q. AND THAT IS AN AREA -- HE'S WEARING A GREEN
SHIRT AND SOME BLACK PANTS?
1
25 A. IT'S LIKE BROWN. l
26 Q. DARKISH?
27 A. YEAH. l
28 Q. AND THIS IS AN AREA RIGHT BETWEEN THE PICNIC
l
1
r 1193
r
r
1 BENCHES, BUT A DISTANCE AWAY?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. ANDRES, I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A RED PEN, AND ON
[ 4 PEOPLE'S 246, THE PRINTED ONE, YOU CAN CIRCLE WHERE THAT
r 5
6
MAN IS IN THE PICTURE.
IS IT WORKING?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A RED MARKER THEN.
r 9 AND YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS PICTURE, CAN YOU SEE THAT
r 12
13
MAN'S FULL BODY?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
COULD YOU SEE THAT MAN'S FULL BODY YESTERDAY?
YES.
r 16
17
Q. REMEMBERING WHAT YOU SAW YESTERDAY AS WELL AS
THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, WAS THAT MAN STANDING IN
r 18 THAT -- THE SAME PLACE AS YOU SAW SPEEDY DO THE
r 19
20
SHOOTING?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. ALSO, BRINGING YOU BACK TO YESTERDAY, WHEN WE
LOOK AT THE PHOTOGRAPH, COULD YOU EASILY SEE THAT MAN IN
r 23
24
THE DISTANCE?
A. THE MAN I CIRCLED RIGHT NOW?
r 25 Q. YES.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU ACTUALLY GIVE INSTRUCTIONS AND POINT
r 28 OUT WHERE FOR HIM TO STAND YESTERDAY?
r
1194
,
1 A. YES.
, 1
2
3
4
Q. DID YOU RECOGNIZE HIM AS BEING ONE OF THE
INVESTIGATORS THAT WAS WITH US THAT DAY?
A. YES.
, 1
Q. FROM THIS LOCATION IN THE PARK, WERE YOU STILL

5
6 ABLE TO RECOGNIZE HIM AS BEING THAT SAME PERSON?

1
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. WHEN THE SHOOTING HAPPENED, WAS IT DARK
,
9
10
11
OUTSIDE?
A.
Q.
IT WAS GETTING DARK ALREADY.
ARE THERE LIGHTS IN THE PARK?
, J
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WERE THE LIGHTS ON? 1
14
15
A. WELL, THERE'S A LOT OF LIGHTS. THEY'RE ABOVE
THE TREES, BY THE BATHROOMS, AND THERE'S -- WELL,
1
1
,
16 THERE'S A COUPLE OF LIGHTS IN THE PARK.
17 Q. GOING BACK TO PEOPLE'S 247, THIS IS, AGAIN,
18 TAKEN FROM YESTERDAY, WHAT IS THIS LOCATION OR WHAT IS
19 THIS PLACE IN THE PARK, ANDRES?
20 A. 247?
l J
21 Q. YES.
22 A. THIS LOCATION?
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YES.
IS WHERE SPEEDY SHOT SMOKEY.
1
25 Q. ARE YOU STANDING WHERE THAT MAN YOU CIRCLED WAS l
26 STANDING?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE YOU DO THE SAME THING ON
l
1
r -
1195
l 1
r
247 WITH THE RED MARKER AND CIRCLE MR. CAMPOS IN THE
2 BACKGROUND. YOU'VE DONE SO WITH A RED MARKER.
r
3 FROM THIS LOCATION COULD YOU SEE SAL CAMPOS
4 YESTERDAY IN THE PARK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
COULD YOU RECOGNIZE SAL CAMPOS?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS SEEING THAT IT WAS
r 9
10
SAL CAMPOS?
A. NO.
r 11 Q. WHEN SPEEDY SHOT SMOKEY, COULD YOU SEE SMOKEY?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WHEN WHAT?
SURE. WE'LL GO BACK TO 246.
r 14
15 A.
AS YOU'RE STANDING HERE IN 246
YES.
r
~
16
17
Q. AND YOU HEAR THE SHOT AND YOU TURN AND YOU
SEE SPEEDY, COULD YOU SEE SMOKEY?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WAS SMOKEY STANDING, SITTING OR LYING DOWN?
LYING DOWN.
r 21
22
Q.
LYING DOWN?
WHEN YOU TURNED AND LOOKED, WAS HE ALREADY
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DID HE EVER GET UP?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
NO. WELL, NOT THAT I SEEN THAT HE GOT UP.
AFTER YOU HEARD THE LAST GUNSHOT, WHAT DID YOU
r 27 DO?
r 28 A. I JUST RAN.
r
1196
, I
1 Q. HOW?
2 A. I JUST RAN, BOLTED. I JUST RAN THROUGH THE
3 HOUSES.
4 Q. GOING BACK TO 245, WE SEE THIS FENCE, CORRECT, 1
ANDRES?
5
6 A. YES.
1
7
8
Q. HOW DID YOU -- DID YOU HAVE TO GO OVER THE
FENCE OR DID YOU GO THROUGH A GATE?
l
~
,
9 A. WELL, THAT FENCE WASN'T LIKE THAT. IT WAS ALL 1
10 TURNED UP ALL THE WAY.

11 Q. HOW HIGH WAS IT? J
12 A. IT WASN'T THAT HIGH.

13 Q. HOW HIGH DID IT COME UP ON YOU? l
14
15
A. IT WAS -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH DISTANCE.
DON'T KNOW.
I
1
1
,
16 Q. THAT'S OKAY. DO YOU SEE THIS WALL KIND OF
17 THING HERE IN COURT?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. IS THAT ABOUT AS HIGH AS THE FENCE WAS, OR IS
20 THE FENCE TALLER OR SHORTER? l
21 A. A LITTLE BIT SHORTER.
22 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO JUMP OVER THE FENCE?
1
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND WHERE DID YOU RUN AFTER YOU JUMPED OVER THE
1
25 FENCE? l
26 A. TOWARDS HOUSES.
27 Q. YOU DIDN'T RUN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER ON THE ALLEY? l
28 A. NO.
,
l
J
r 1197
l 1 Q. JUST HEADED STRAIGHT FOR THE HOUSES?
r 2
3
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU RUN ALONE OR WAS THERE ANYBODY WITH

[ 4 YOU?
r 5
6
A. THERE WAS -- WELL, WHEN I RAN, THERE WAS A GUY
WITH US AND A LITTLE KID, BUT WE LOST THE BIG GUY.
r 7
8
WELL, WE LOST SPANKY.
Q. NOW, WE'VE HEARD THERE ARE TWO SPANKIES.
[ 9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID A SPANKY RUN WITH YOU?

r 11 A. WELL, HE WAS RUNNING FIRST, AND THEN I RAN WITH
r 12
13
LIL SPANKY.
Q. WHO RAN FIRST?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
BIG SPANKY.
WAS LIL SPANKY ALSO THERE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DID YOU RUN WITH EITHER SPANKY?
r 18 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "EITHER"?
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DID YOU RUN WITH BIG SPANKY?
NO.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DID YOU RUN WITH LIL SPANKY?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
THROUGH THE HOUSES?
YES.
r 25 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO AFTER YOU WENT THROUGH THE
r
26 HOUSES?
27 A. WENT THROUGH SEWERS.
r 28 Q. WHEN YOU SAY "SEWERS," WHAT ARE YOU TALKING
r
1198
l
l
1 ABOUT?
2 A. WELL, WHERE THE WATER COMES DOWN AND ALL THE 1
3 PEE AND ALL THE POOP AND ALL THAT.
4 Q. DID YOU HAVE TO LIFT UP A MANHOLE COVER TO GET l
INTO THE SEWER?
5
6 A. NO.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
WAS THIS AN OPEN DITCH KIND OF THING?
YES.
l
9 Q. IS IT MADE OF CONCRETE? 1
10 A. YES.
11 Q. IS THERE WATER IN IT? 1
12 A. WELL, IT WASN'T WATER.
13 Q. WAS THERE SOMETHING IN IT? 1
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW FAR AWAY IS THIS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
1
l
16
17
18
19
HOUSES?
A.
Q.
SEVERAL BLOCKS? DO YOU KNOW?
IT'S LIKE TWO BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE PARK.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE RUN FROM THE PARK
AFTER THE SHOTS WERE FIRED?
,
20 A. WELL, I SEEN A COUPLE OTHER GUYS, BUT I DIDN'T 1
21 GET TO SEE WHO WERE THEY.
22 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU GO CHECK ON SMOKEY OR SEE WHAT
l
23
24
HAPPENED?
A. BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW. I JUST LEFT. I JUST
1
25 RAN. I DIDN'T WANT TO GET IN TROUBLE. 1
26 Q. WERE YOU SCARED?
l
27
28
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU SCARED OF BEING CAUGHT BY THE POLICE? ,
1
1
r 1199
[
1 A. YES.
[ 2 Q. WERE YOU SCARED OF BEING SHOT?
A. WELL, NOT REALLY.
r
3
4 Q. DID ANYBODY ELSE -- DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE
r 5
6
GET SHOT?
A. NO.
r 7
8
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 248, PHOTOGRAPH OF SAL
CAMPOS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 9 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 10
11
Q. NOW, ANDRES, FOCUSING NOW ON PEOPLE'S 248, THIS
IS A CLOSE-UP OF MR. CAMPOS AT THAT LOCATION THAT YOU
r 12
13
WERE PEEING; IS THAT RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15 IS?
Q. DO YOU SEE THAT LOG OR STUMP OR WHATEVER THAT
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THAT THE BUSH YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT?
r 18 A. YES.
r
19 Q. AND WE CAN SEE THE FENCE RIGHT BEHIND
20 MR. CAMPOS, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
BUT YOUR MEMORY IS THAT THAT FENCE WAS --
r 23
24
A.
Q.
SMALLER.
SMALL?
[ 25 A. YES.
Q. CAN WE SEE THE HOUSE BEHIND MR. CAMPOS THAT YOU
r
l
26
27 MIGHT HAVE RUN THROUGH, OR IS IT OFF OF THE PICTURE?
r 28 A. IT'S OFF.
r
l
1200
, ~
1 Q. WHICH WAY IS IT OFF?
1
2
4
A.
Q.
IT'S LIKE THE NEXT HOUSE FROM THAT ONE.
DO YOU SEE THIS BIG BUSH OR GREEN THING ON THE
OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE?
, I
5 A. YES. ~
I
6 Q. DO YOU SEE THE YELLOW WALL HERE?

, J
,,
7 A. YES.
L
8 Q. AND DO YOU SEE SOME SORT OF WHITE FENCE ON THE
9 OTHER SIDE OF THAT BUSH?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE ARE ALL ON THE j
12 OTHER SIDE OF THE ALLEY?

13 A. YES.
14
15
Q.
A.
DID YOU JUMP EITHER OF THOSE WALLS?
NO.
1
16
17
Q.
A.
WAS IT A DIFFERENT WALL?
YES.
1
18
19
20
{PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 249, PHOTOGRAPH OF AREA OF
SHOOTING IN PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
,
1
L
21 Q. SHOWING YOU NOW PEOPLE'S 249, ANDRES, THIS IS

22 ALSO FROM THE LOCATION THAT YOU DESCRIBED AS THE
l
23
24
SHOOTING TAKING PLACE, LOOKING NOW SOUTHEAST TOWARDS THE
GROUP OF TREES, RIGHT?
l
25 A. YES. 1
26 Q. CAN WE SEE MR. CAMPOS THERE FAR OFF -- OR RIGHT
27 THERE ON THE RIGHT SIDE? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 1201
r 1 Q. SO NOW WE'RE STARTING TO TURN AND LOOK MORE AT
r 2 THE ALLEY, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE THERE PEOPLE UNDER THESE TREES --
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
-- WHILE YOU WERE IN THE PARK?
r 7
8
A. YES.
{PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 250, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK,
r 9
10
BY MR. TROCHA:
L 11 Q. NOW, LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 250, WHICH IS THE
r 12
13
LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THAT SAME GROUP OF TREES LOOKING EAST,
FOR THE RECORD, DO YOU SEE THE BROWN FENCE BEHIND THE
r 14
15
METAL FENCE WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
PARK?
WAS THAT BROWN FENCE THERE WHEN YOU WERE IN THE
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
21
Q.
A.
Q.
IT'S A NEWER FENCE?
YES.
ANDRES, I WANT TO POINT OUT THIS OPENING ON THE
l 22 FENCE ON THE FAR LEFT SIDE, THE METAL FENCE IN THE PARK.
r 23
24
DO YOU SEE THAT?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. WAS THAT OPENING THERE, IF YOU REMEMBER, AT THE
r 26
27
TIME WHEN YOU WERE IN THE PARK?
A. NO. THERE WAS ANOTHER OPENING ON THE OTHER
r 28 SIDE.
r
1202
1 Q. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TREES?

2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANYBODY WAS IN THE ALLEY WHERE
4 THIS OPENING IS IN THIS PICTURE?
5 A. IN THE ALLEY?
6 Q. IN THE ALLEY, IF YOU REMEMBER.
7 A. I SEEN A COUPLE PEOPLE RIGHT THERE.
8 Q. WE TALKED ABOUT A PERSON NAMED VANDAL IN THAT
9 ONE PICTURE TODAY. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF CAR VANDAL DROVE AT 1
12 THE TIME?
13 A. GREEN NISSAN. l
14
15
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOU EVER SAW A GREEN NISSAN THAT
NIGHT OR IF YOU REMEMBER?
1
16 A. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SEEN IT.
1
17 Q. THIS IS, AGAIN, FROM WHERE THE PICTURE IS
18 TAKEN, ANDRES -- IS THIS ALSO WHERE THE SHOOTING TOOK 1
19 PLACE?
20 A. YES. 1
21 Q. AND WE'RE GOING TO GET TO IT IN A SECOND AFTER
22 A FEW MORE PICTURES.
l
23
24 A.
DO YOU SEE THIS THING ABOVE THE TREES?
YES.
l
25 Q. WHAT IS THAT? 1
26 A. LIGHTS.
27 Q. WERE THOSE LIGHTS THERE, IF YOU CAN REMEMBER, l
28 ON THE NIGHT OF THE KILLING?
l
l
r 1203
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. WERE THEY ON?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
ARE THEY BRIGHT?
r 5
6
A. WELL, YEAH, THEY'RE PRETTY BRIGHT.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 251, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND
[ 7 TREES AND FENCE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

8 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO 251. WE'RE NOW LOOKING AT THE
r
10 FAR LEFT SIDE PATCH OF TREES AND ONE OF THE BROWN FENCES
11 IN THE BACKGROUND, AS WELL AS WHAT LOOKS LIKE A STREET
r 12
13
SIGN AND BARRICADE, FOR THE RECORD.
DIRECTLY EAST FROM THE PARK.
IT WOULD BE
[ 14 DO YOU REMEMBER ANYONE BEING BY THE FENCE IN

15 THIS AREA, ANDRES? THE AREA I'D BE REFERRING TO WOULD
r 16
17
BE FROM HERE TO HERE.
A. WELL, YEAH.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY THERE?
r 18 Q. WHEN DID YOU SEE THEM THERE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
WHEN I WAS GETTING THERE.
WHO WAS THERE? DO YOU KNOW THEIR NAMES?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
IT WAS SPEEDY.
ANYBODY ELSE?
r 23
24
A. I GUESS -- I DON'T KNOW IT WAS HIS WIFE OR HIS
GIRLFRIEND.
r 25 Q.
A.
THERE WAS A WOMAN?
YES.
r
26
27 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER HOW SHE LOOKED?
r 28 A. NO.
r
1204
,

I
'I
1 Q. WAS SHE PRETTY?

1
2
3
4
A.
Q.
A.
WELL, PROBABLY. I DON'T KNOW.
YOU JUST REMEMBERED IT BEING A GIRL.
YES.
,
.1
5 OR A WOMAN.
6
Q.
A. YES.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE, DID YOU KNOW?
WELL, WHAT I SEEN, THEY WERE JUST TALKING.
l
~
,
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T GO UP AND SAY HI OR ANYTHING? I
J
10 A. NO.
11 Q. AND IS THIS BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
12 A. YES.
13 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 252, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND l
14
15
FENCE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
1
16
17
Q. PEOPLE'S 252 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE OPENING THAT
WE'VE LOOKED AT BEFORE, LOOKING EAST. WE'LL SKIP OVER
1
18 THAT. l
19 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 253, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND
20 TREES AND FENCE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 1
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 253 IS A CLOSE-UP OF JUST NORTH OF THE
l
23
24
OPENING, AND A PINE TREE AS WELL AS THE BARRICADE.
ANDRES, LOOKING AT 252 -- I'M SORRY -- 252 OR
1
25 253, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU KNOW WHICH PICTURE WOULD 1
26 SHOW US WHERE SPEEDY WAS WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND?
27 A. WELL, NOT REALLY, BECAUSE THEY CHANGED IT A l
28 LOT. IT USED TO BE DIFFERENT.
l
l
r 1205
r 1 Q. THE PARK?
[ 2 A. YEAH. THEY CHANGED IT A LOT. IT LOOKS
r
3 DIFFERENT.
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 7
8
Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 254, THIS WOULD BE NOW
TURNING TO THE NORTHEAST OF THE PARK, LOOKING DOWN AT
r 9 WHAT'S BEEN PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED AS 4075 FRANKLIN, FOR
r 10
11
12
THE RECORD.
ARE WE NOW STARTING TO LOOK ON THE OTHER SIDE
OF THE PARK, ANDRES?

( 13 A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND WE'RE STILL STANDING IN THE LOCATION WHERE
SPEEDY WAS SHOOTING MOISES -- OR SHOOTING SMOKEY?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
FROM THIS PICTURE?
YES.
r 18 A. IT WAS THE PLACE? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING
r 19
20
TO SAY?
Q. DO YOU KNOW?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
WOULD THIS BE, THOUGH, LOOKING AT THE NORTHERN
[ 23 SIDE OF THIS PARK OR THE SIDE OF THE PARK CLOSER TO
24 FRANKLIN?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THIS WHERE THE PARK STARTS TO GO DOWN A
r 27 HILL?
r 28 A. YES.
r
1206
, J
MR. TROCHA: AND THAT WAS 254, FOR THE RECORD,

l
1
2 IF I DIDN'T SAY THAT. 1

4 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 255, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK 1 l
5 FROM NORTH, LOOKING DOWN FRANKLIN, WAS MARKED FOR

6 IDENTIFICATION.)
1
7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 255 IS NOW LOOKING FURTHER DOWN
l
9 FRANKLIN ON THE NORTHERN SIDE OF THE PARK; IS THAT 1
10 RIGHT, ANDRES?
11 A. YES. 1
12 Q. WE CAN SEE WHERE THE PARK GOES ALL THE WAY DOWN
13 AND WE CAN'T EVEN SEE WHERE IT MEETS THE STREET. 1
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
SO WE'RE STILL ON THE TOP OF THE PARK.
l
1
,
16 A. YEAH.
18 LOOKING NORTH, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 256 IS LOOKING AGAIN IN THE SAME 1
21 NORTHERN DIRECTION IN THE PARK, BUT NOW LOOKING FURTHER
22
23
24
WEST UP FRANKLIN.
RIGHT, ANDRES?
A. YES.
WE CAN ACTUALLY SEE A CAR; IS THAT
,
l
25 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 257, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK, l

26 LOOKING NORTH, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
27 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
28 Q. PEOPLE'S 257 IS STILL LOOKING NORTH AT
l
l
r 1207
(
1 FRANKLIN, AND NOW WE CAN SEE WHERE FRANKLIN MEETS 40TH
[ 2 FROM THE TOP OF THE PARK; IS THAT CORRECT, ANDRES?
3 A. YES.
r- 4 Q. WE CAN ACTUALLY SEE IN THIS PICTURE WHERE THE
r 5
6
PARK GOES DOWNHILL AND THEN GOES REALLY STEEP DOWNHILL;
IS THAT RIGHT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THAT HOW YOU REMEMBER THE PARK LOOKING?
r 9
10
A. YES.
r
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 258, PHOTOGRAPH OF LIGHTS,
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
[ 13 Q. PEOPLE'S 258 ARE THE LIGHTS WE TALKED ABOUT
[ 14 EARLIER OVER THE TREES; IS THAT RIGHT, ANDRES?
15 A. YES.
r 16
17
r 18 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 19
20
Q. PEOPLE'S 259 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THOSE LIGHTS; IS
THAT CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
THERE ARE TWO LIGHTS THAT WE CAN SEE IN THE
( 23 PHOTOGRAPH, RIGHT, ANDRES?
24 A. YES.
r 25
26
Q. DO EITHER OF THESE LIGHTS POINT DIRECTLY AT THE
CAMERA, IF YOU KNOW?

[ 27 A. NO.
28 Q. BUT WE CAN SEE TWO OF THEM UP THERE.
[
r
1208
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND WHEN WE WERE OUT THERE YESTERDAY, DID YOU 1
3 KNOW IF THEY WERE ON OR OFF?
4 A. WELL, THAT I SEEN, THEY WERE ON. l
5
6 BATHROOMS IN PARK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
1
7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. PEOPLE'S 260 IS ANOTHER PICTURE OF THE
l
1
9
10
11
12
BATHROOMS TAKEN FURTHER BACK, LOOKING SOUTH, FOR THE
RECORD.
ANDRES, IS THIS A PICTURE TAKEN FROM WHERE
MOISES -- EXCUSE ME -- SMOKEY WAS SHOT, IF YOU KNOW?
,
13 A. WELL, NO, I DON'T KNOW. 1
14
15
Q. OKAY. DO YOU SEE THE WALKWAY RIGHT THERE IN
THE FRONT OF THE PICTURE THAT GOES DOWN AND PAST THE
l
16
17
BATHROOM?
A. YES.
l
1
18
19
20
Q.
A.
Q.
IS THERE A WALKWAY IN THE PARK LIKE THAT?
RIGHT NOW?
AT THE TIME YOU WERE THERE.
,
21 A. YES.
22
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
DO WE SEE ANY LIGHTS BY THIS BATHROOM?
YES.
WHERE? IF YOU CAN, STAND UP AND POINT THEM OUT
,
l
_J.
25 FOR us. 1
26 A. THERE'S TWO. THERE'S TWO LIGHTS. THERE'S THIS
27 ONE AND THAT ONE. l
28 Q. AND YOU POINTED TO ONE BEHIND THE BATHROOM AND
l
l
r 1209
r 1 ONE IN FRONT OF THE BATHROOM.
r 2 A. YEAH.
r
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF THOSE WERE ON THE NIGHT
4 YOU WERE IN THE PARK?
5 A. YES.
[ 6 Q. BOTH OF THEM OR ONE OF THEM OR DO YOU KNOW?
r 7
8
A. WELL, THAT I REMEMBER, THEY WERE BOTH ON.
r 9
10
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 11 Q. AND PEOPLE'S 261 IS A CLOSE-UP OF BOTH OF THOSE
r 12
13
LIGHTS?
A. I DON'T HAVE THAT NUMBER.
r 14
15
Q. 261 BEHIND YOU, WOULD THAT BE A CLOSE-UP OF
THOSE LIGHTS?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
ANDRES, I'M GOING TO TAKE US BACK TO THIS

~ 18 LOCATION IN 247.
r 19
20
YOU TESTIFIED TODAY THAT YOU SAW SPEEDY SHOOT
SMOKEY WHILE HE WAS STANDING AT THIS PART IN THE PARK;
r 21
22
IS THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. YOU ALSO SAID YOU SAW SPEEDY WITH HIS
GIRLFRIEND BY THE FENCE EARLIER THAT NIGHT IN THE PARK;
r 25
26
IS THAT ALSO CORRECT?
A. YES.
r
1- 27 Q. DID YOU SEE SPEEDY BETWEEN THOSE TIMES?
r 28 A. WHAT YOU MEAN?
r
1210
l
1
1 Q. SURE. WAS SPEEDY ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE PARK
2 BEFORE THE SHOOTING? l
3 A. BEFORE THE SHOOTING? WELL, WHERE I SEEN HIM
4 AT. l
5 Q. WHERE DID YOU SEE HIM STANDING AT?
6 A. STANDING BY THE FENCE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND.
l
7
8
Q. YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE WAS A PERSON THERE
THAT WAS EITHER YOGI OR CROOKS; IS THAT RIGHT?
l
9 A. YES. 1
10 Q. DID YOU SEE SPEEDY WITH THAT PERSON?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. WHAT WERE THEY DOING WHEN YOU SAW THEM?
13 A. THEY WERE JUST TALKING. 1
14
15
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS THIS IN THE PARK?
IT WAS -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE-WHERE-WHERE IT IS,
l
1
BUT IT WAS BY THESE TREES ON 259 OR --
,
16
17 Q. 259, YOU SAID?

18 A. YES. 'I
19 Q. THE TREES WITH THE LIGHT OVER THEM?

20 A. YES. 1
21 Q. WAS THIS BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
22 A. WHEN I SEEN THEM?
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YES.
YES.
1
25 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE ANY OF THEM WITH A GUN BEFORE j
26 THE SHOOTING?
27 A. NO. l .1
28 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE ANY OF THEM WITH A GUN DURING

l
l
1211
1 THE SHOOTING?
2 A. I DIDN'T SEE THE GUN.

3 Q. YOU COULDN'T SEE THE GUN?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW, THEN, WHEN YOU'RE STANDING IN
THIS LOCATION, PEEING, IN 246 -- HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT
r 7
8
SPEEDY HAD A GUN?
A. BECAUSE HE WAS LIKE THE ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF
r 9
10
SMOKEY.
Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "RIGHT IN FRONT OF SMOKEY"?
r 11 A. LIKE, WELL, HE WAS LIKE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WAS HE CLOSE TO HIM?
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
COULD HE HAVE TOUCHED HIM IF HE WANTED TO?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "COULD HE"?
r. 16
17
Q.
A.
YOU SAID SMOKEY WAS LYING ON THE GROUND.
YES.
r 18 Q. IF HE WANTED TO, COULD HE HAVE BENT OVER AND
r
19 TOUCHED HIM? WAS HE THAT CLOSE?
20 A. WELL, THAT I SEEN, NO.
r 21
22
Q. WAS HE CLOSE ENOUGH THAT YOU COULD SEE THEM
BOTH AT THE SAME TIME?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "CLOSE ENOUGH"?
SURE. YOU SAID YOU SAW SPEEDY SHOOTING SMOKEY.
r 25
26
HOW DID YOU KNOW SPEEDY WAS SHOOTING SMOKEY?
A. BECAUSE I COULD SEE THE BODY.
r 27 Q. COULD YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS?
r 28 A. YES.
r
,
1212
l
1 Q. COULD YOU SEE ANY FIRE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT
~
2 COME OUT OF THE GUN OR COME OUT OF THE HAND? J
3 A. WELL, JUST LIKE -- YOU KNOW THE GUNS, HOW THEY
; J
4 COME OUT WITH A LITTLE SMOKING?
YOU COULD SEE THAT?
5
6
Q.
A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU SEE THAT?
ONCE.
l
9 Q. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE PERSON WE CIRCLED IN l
10 THIS ONE PICTURE, JAY, JAY FARRINGTON, IS HE AS BIG AS,
11 SMALLER THAN, OR BIGGER THEN SPEEDY? l
12 A. ABOUT THE SAME SIZE.
13 Q. ABOUT THE SAME SIZE? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW TALL ARE YOU, ANDRES?
l
16
17
A. LIKE SIX FEET PROBABLY.
1
Q. ARE YOU TALLER THAN, SHORTER THAN OR THE SAME
18 SIZE AS SPEEDY? l
19 A. I DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. WHEN SPEEDY WAS SHOOTING SMOKEY, WAS THERE
l
23
24
ANYBODY ELSE NEXT TO SPEEDY?
A. WELL, THAT I SEEN, THERE WAS SOMEONE ELSE.
1
25 Q. WHO, IF YOU KNOW? 1
26 A. WELL, NOT THAT I KNEW, HUH-UH.
27 Q. WERE THERE ANY OTHER PEOPLE STANDING AROUND 1
........
28 SMOKEY OR WERE THESE THE ONLY PEOPLE?

1
,
r 1213
r 1 A. WELL, YES.
r 2 Q. WHO WAS STANDING AROUND?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
KNUCKLES AND RACCOON.
ANYBODY ELSE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I THINK -- TOKER, I THINK, WAS ONE OF THEM.
WHEN YOU SAY THEY WERE STANDING AROUND HIM, ARE
r 7
8
THEY STANDING WHERE JAY IS STANDING OR ARE THEY STANDING
IN OTHER AREAS OF THE PARK?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
WHERE THOSE LIGHTS ARE AT.
WHAT GUYS?
r 11 A. THE TWO GUYS THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
r 12
13
Q.
SMOKEY.
WE HAVE SPEEDY STANDING, AS YOU SAID, NEXT TO
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE STANDING -- AND
r 16
17
THAT'S -- LET ME BACK UP.
JAY IS STANDING WHERE YOU SAID SPEEDY IS
r 18 STANDING DURING THE SHOOTING, YES?
r
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. LOOKING AT JAY, WAS THERE ANYBODY STANDING NEXT
r 21
22
TO WHERE JAY IS IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH OR ARE THEY NOT NEXT
TO JAY?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO, THEY'RE NOT.
THEY'RE NOT NEXT TO JAY?
r
~
25 WHERE WOULD KNUCKLES AND THESE OTHER PEOPLE BE?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
THESE BENCHES IN THE TREES.
THESE BENCHES IN THESE TREES THAT YOU ALREADY
r 28 TALKED ABOUT BEFORE?
r
1214
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE ANY -- DID YOU EVER SEE SMOKEY l
3 GET BEAT UP?
4 A. NO. l
Q. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE GET BEAT UP?
5
6 A. NO.
l
7
8
Q.
AT THE PARK?
DID YOU EVER HEAR THE NAME LIL CROOKS MENTIONED
l
9 A. AT THE PARK? l
10 Q. YES.
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. ANDRES, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE BEEN BACK
13 TO THIS PARK SINCE YOU WERE ARRESTED; IS THAT CORRECT? l
14
15
A.
Q.
WHEN I GOT OUT, I WAS AROUND THERE.
YOU WERE? AND THEN YOU WENT TO MEXICO?
l
16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THIS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE BEEN TO THE PARK
l
18 SINCE YOU'VE BEEN TO MEXICO? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. IS THIS THE ONLY TIME YOU'VE BEEN TO THE PARK l
21 TO TALK ABOUT THIS CASE WITH ME AND OTHER POLICE
22 OFFICERS?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS HAPPENED ALMOST THREE
l
25 YEARS AGO, WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR MEMORY IS OF THIS
26 MURDER?
27 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? l
28 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER IT LIKE IT HAPPENED YESTERDAY,
1
l
r 1215
r 1 OR IS IT HARD TO REMEMBER CERTAIN THINGS?

r 2 A. PRETTY HARD TO REMEMBER.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHY IS THAT?
BECAUSE IT'S A COUPLE YEARS AGO. YOU'RE NOT
r 5
6
GOING TO REMEMBER EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOU SEEN.
Q. WHEN YOU WERE OUT TO THE PARK YESTERDAY, DID IT
r 7
8
HELP YOU TO REMEMBER SOME THINGS?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. WHY?
r 10
11
A. BECAUSE YOU'RE ACTUALLY AT THE PARK WHERE
THINGS REALLY HAPPENED.
r 12
13
Q. WE TALKED ALSO ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THE OVERHEAD PICTURE IN PEOPLE'S 2 AND THESE PICTURES
r 14
15
WE'VE GONE THROUGH TODAY, RIGHT, ANDRES?
A. YES.
r 16 Q. WHICH ARE YOU MORE COMFORTABLE USING?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
THESE.
YOU LIKE THESE PICTURES?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
DID IT HELP THAT YOU HAD HELPED IN TAKING THESE
r 21
22
PICTURES WHERE YOU WERE AND WHERE THESE THINGS HAPPENED?
A. YES.
r 23 Q. ANDRES, I WANT TO KIND OF WRAP UP BY TALKING
r 24
25
ABOUT WHEN THE POLICE CAME TO TALK TO YOU AFTER YOUR
ARREST.
r 26
27
WHEN YOU TOLD THE POLICE THOSE THINGS, THAT
WAS, WHAT, LAST YEAR?
r 28 A. THE POLICE?
r
1216
, j
l
1 Q. RIGHT, IF YOU KNOW.
~
2 A. BEFORE I CAME HERE TO THE COURT, THERE WAS -- I J
3 THINK IT WAS LAST YEAR.

4 Q. WAS THAT BEFORE YOU WENT TO MEXICO?
l
5 A. IT WAS AFTER.
l
6
7
Q. WHEN YOU FIRST TALKED TO THIS DETECTIVE, WAS
THAT BEFORE YOU WENT TO MEXICO?
, .1
8 A. THE FIRST TIME I TALKED TO HIM?

9 Q. RIGHT. l J
10 A. YES.
l
11
12
Q. YOU'VE ALSO COME TO COURT A COUPLE TIMES TO
TALK ABOUT THIS, RIGHT? , J
13 A. YES.
14 Q. THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, DID YOU HEAR ABOUT
l
15
16
ANY THREATS AGAINST YOU?
A. YES.
, j
17 Q. HOW DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THESE THREATS?

l
18
19
20
A.
Q.
A.
ONE OF MY COUSINS TOLD ME.
YOU TALKED TO YOUR COUSIN?
YES.
, 1
21
22
Q. WHAT DID YOUR COUSIN TELL YOU THE LAST TIME YOU
CAME TO COURT?
l
23 A. DON'T GO TO SHELLTOWN BECAUSE I'LL BE KILLED. l
24 Q. DID HE SAY WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE WERE LOOKING
25 FOR YOU? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WHY WOULD YOU GET KILLED IF YOU WENT TO l
SHELL TOWN?
28
l
l
r 1217
r 1 A. BECAUSE I GUESS I'M A SNITCH.

r 2 Q. IS THAT BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU JUST TOLD US TODAY?
3 A. YES.
r 4 Q. HOW WERE YOU A SNITCH FOR TELLING US WHAT YOU
r 5
6
TOLD US TODAY?
A. BECAUSE I'M SNITCHING ON SPEEDY, WHAT HE DID.
r 7 Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU

8 WENT DOWN TO THAT PARK WITHOUT THE POLICE WITH YOU?
r 9 A. PROBABLY GET SHOT OR JUMPED OR SOMETHING.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD MAKE IT OUT ALIVE?
WHAT YOU MEAN?
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD DIE IN THAT PARK TOO?
PROBABLY.
r 14
15
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I'M GOING TO
GIVE YOU THE SAME LIMITING INSTRUCTION ABOUT THESE
r 16 THREATS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT WITH RESPECT TO

17 MS. BERUMEN. YOU'LL REMEMBER THAT I GAVE YOU THE
r 18 INSTRUCTION THAT THE THREATS ARE THE KIND OF EVIDENCE
19 THAT WE CALL LIMITED PURPOSE EVIDENCE.
r 20 EVIDENCE OF THREATS OR WARNINGS, HOWEVER YOU
r 21
22
WANT TO CHARACTERIZE IT, THAT YOU'VE JUST HEARD IS
SUBJECT TO THAT SAME INSTRUCTION I GAVE YOU EARLIER WITH
r 23 RESPECT TO MS. BERUMEN. THE EVIDENCE OF THESE THREATS

24 OR WARNINGS THAT ARE DIRECTED AT ANDRES OR COMMUNICATED
r 25 TO HIM, NONE OF THAT IS EVIDENCE OF MR. DOMINGUEZ' GUILT
r 26
27
OF ANY OF THE CHARGES IN THIS CASE.
ALSO, YOU SHOULD NOT CONCLUDE FROM THIS
r 28 EVIDENCE THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ CAUSED THE THREATS OR MADE
r
l
1218
l
1 THOSE THREATS. YOU MAY USE THIS EVIDENCE ONLY IN YOUR
2 EVALUATION OF ANDRES' TESTIMONY AND HIS BELIEVABILITY. l
3 DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THIS INSTRUCTION? I
4 SEE ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES, AND THANK YOU, LADIES AND
l
5
6
GENTLEMEN.
l
7 BY MR. TROCHA: l
8 Q. YOUR HONOR, AT THIS TIME I WOULD ASK THE
9 COURT'S PERMISSION TO HAND OUT THE TRANSCRIPTS AND l
10 LISTEN TO THE INTERVIEW WE'VE TALKED ABOUT.
11 THE COURT: YES. DOES ANYONE NEED A BREAK? l
12
13 LONG.
MR. TROCHA: THE INTERVIEW ITSELF IS 55 MINUTES
l
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I PROPOSE WE TAKE A BREAK,
l
15 YOUR HONOR.
16 THE COURT: DOES ANYBODY NEED A BREAK? THIS l
17 INCLUDES YOU.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD LIKE A BREAK, YES. l
19 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THEN WE'LL HAVE TO DO
20 THIS.
l
21
22
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
IT'S FINE IF WE BREAK IT UP.
WE'LL PLAY PART OF IT AND BREAK IT
l
23 UP. l
24 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IT'S A RULE I'M APPLYING
25 FOR EVERYBODY. IF SOMEONE NEEDS A BREAK, WE'LL TAKE l
26 ONE. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. PLEASE LEAVE THE
27 NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS. WE'LL RECONVENE AT A l
28 COUPLE MINUTES BEFORE 11:30. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN
l
l
r 1219
r
r 1
2
RECESS.
r 3
4
THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
r 5
6
PRESENT. ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.
r 7
8
CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
ANDRES IS ON THE WITNESS STAND. THANK YOU, ANDRES.
r 9 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
r 11 BEFORE WE GET TO THE TAPE, WE DID FORGET ONE
r 12
13
SLIDE, ANDRES, AND THAT WAS 262, AND THAT WAS THE LAST
PHOTO TAKEN IN THE PARK. THIS IS A PHOTO, FOR THE
r 14
15
RECORD, LOOKING WEST AT A STREET LAMP.
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 262, PHOTOGRAPH OF PARK AND
r 16
17
STREETLIGHTS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 18 Q. DO YOU RECALL THAT LAMP ALSO BEING THERE ON THE
19 DAY OF THE MURDER, ANDRES?
r 20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW IF THAT ONE WAS ON OR OFF?
NO, I DON'T KNOW.
r 23 Q. I'LL TAKE THAT FROM YOU. THANKS.

AT THIS TIME, YOUR HONOR, I HAVE THE
24
r 25 TRANSCRIPTS, IF YOU WANT ME TO PASS THEM OUT TO THE
26 JURORS.
r 27 THE COURT: TELL ME AGAIN WHAT THESE WILL BE
r 28 AND WHAT THE EXHIBIT NUMBER IS, PLEASE.
r
1220
1
l
1 MR. TROCHA: THE EXHIBIT NUMBER IS PEOPLE'S
2 264. THE TRANSCRIPT WILL BE 264A. IT IS THE INTERVIEW l
3 OF ANDRES LOPEZ ON APRIL 8, 2009, BY MICHAEL LAMBERT AND
l
4
5
6
GREG PINARELLI.
{PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 264, AUDIO CD OF POLICE
INTERVIEW, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
,
~
7 {PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 264A, TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO
,
j
8 CD OF POLICE INTERVIEW, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
9 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YES, YOU MAY PASS OUT J
10 THE TRANSCRIPTS TO THE JURY.

11 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE SAME RULES WILL APPLY l
12
13
AS OUR PREVIOUS RECORDINGS. IT IS WHAT YOU HEAR FROM
THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING THAT'S THE EVIDENCE. THE
l
14
15
TRANSCRIPT IS MERELY AN AID IN HELPING TO INTERPRET THE
EVIDENCE.
l
16 THE COURT REPORTERS WILL NOT TRANSCRIBE l
17 ANYTHING THAT IS PLAYED. THEY WILL TRANSCRIBE ANYTHING
18 SAID BY ANYONE IN OPEN COURT, BUT OTHERWISE NOTHING THAT l
19 WE ARE HEARING FROM THE ELECTRONIC RECORDING.
20 I SEE EACH JUROR HAS A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT.
l
21
22
I'M REFERRING TO EXHIBIT 264A.
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY PLAY THE ELECTRONIC
l
23 RECORDING MARKED AS EXHIBIT 264. l
24 (AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.)
25 THE COURT: WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD. THE l
26 RECORD WILL REFLECT WE PAUSED THE PLAYING OF THE AUDIO
27 RECORDING AT THE TOP OF PAGE 19 OF THE TRANSCRIPT, WHICH l
28 IS EXHIBIT 264A. .IT'S NOW TWO MINUTES BEFORE 12:00.
l
,
r 1221
r
r 1
2
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN PLEASE LEAVE THE
TRANSCRIPTS, NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS. PLEASE
r 3
4
REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
1:30. THANK YOU.
WE'LL PLAN ON RECONVENING AT
r 5
6
r 7 Ill
Ill
r 8
9 Ill
r 10
11
Ill
Ill
r 12
13
Ill
Ill
r 14
15
Ill
Ill
r 16 Ill
r 17
18
Ill
Ill
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25 Ill
r 26
27
Ill
Ill
r 28 Ill
r
1222
1
l
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 2011, 1:36 PM
2 1
4 AND GENTLEMEN. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE
l
5
6
PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
IS BACK ON THE WITNESS STAND. THANK YOU, ANDRES.
ANDRES
l
7 WE WILL RESUME WITH THE PLAYING FOR THE JURY OF
l
8 THE AUDIO RECORDING, PEOPLE'S 264. WE BEGIN AT
9 APPROXIMATELY THE TOP OF PAGE 19 OF THE TRANSCRIPT, l
10 WHICH IS 264A.
11 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY RESUME. l
12 (AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.)
l
14
15
RECORD. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT WE'VE HEARD
EXHIBIT 264.
l
16 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION. l
18 BY MR. TROCHA: l
19 Q. ANDRES, YOU SPENT THE LAST HALF HOUR BEFORE
20 LUNCH AND HALF HOUR AFTER LUNCH LISTENING TO THAT
l
21
22
RECORDING.
AFTER LISTENING TO THAT RECORDING, IS YOUR
l
23 MEMORY CHANGED ABOUT ANYTHING THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED IN l
24 THE PARK THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS MORNING?
25 A. WHAT YOU MEAN? l
26 Q. AFTER HEARING THAT AND LOOKING AT THE LINES OF
27 IT IN FRONT OF YOU, DO YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING MORE OR DO l
28 YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY?
l
l
r 1223
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
NO.
WE HEARD ABOUT SOME TALK ABOUT A BEATING OR A
r 3
4
FIGHT IN THE PARK.
TAPE?
DO YOU REMEMBER HEARING THAT IN THE
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, DO YOU REMEMBER ANY SORT
r 7
8
OF FIGHT OR A BEATING AT THE PARK?
NO.
r
A.
9 Q. WAS THAT A "NO"?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
NO. YES.
NO, YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
THAT MAKES IT EASIER.
r 14
15
YOU HEARD YOU TELL THE POLICE, THOUGH, THIS
DETECTIVE, THAT THERE WAS A BEATING BEFOREHAND.
r 16 A. YES.
r 17
18
Q. JUST TO CLEAR IT UP, WAS THERE A BEATING THAT
YOU DON'T REMEMBER OR DID A BEATING NOT HAPPEN?
r 19
20 SPECULATION.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
ANSWER THAT, ANDRES.
SUSTAINED. YOU DON'T HAVE TO
WE'LL SAY IT AGAIN A DIFFERENT
r 23
24
WAY.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 25 Q. YOU HEARD THE PART WHERE YOU TOLD THE
r 26
27
DETECTIVES YOU SAW A PERSON NAMED CHUBS GETTING JUMPED
IN.
r 28 A. YES.
r
1224
l
l
1 Q. AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING
2 CHUBS GET JUMPED IN? l
3 A. NO.
4 Q. WE ALSO HEARD THE PART WHERE YOU TOLD THE
l
5
6
DETECTIVES ABOUT A PERSON NAMED TOKES THAT MAY HAVE BEEN
JUMPED IN. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT FROM THE TAPE?
l
7 A. DO I REMEMBER IT FROM THE TAPE?
8 Q. AND DID YOU HEAR THAT ON THE TAPE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT HAPPENING TODAY?
11 A. NO.
l l
12
13
Q. WE HEARD ON THE TAPE THAT THERE WAS A
DISCUSSION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU SAW SMOKEY GET
l
14 SOCKED BY SPEEDY. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT ON THE TAPE?
l
15
16
A.
Q.
YES.
AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, DO YOU REMEMBER IF
, I
17 SPEEDY SOCKED SMOKEY?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. THE SHOOTING THAT WE TALKED ABOUT THIS MORNING,
20 YOU SAID YOU SAW SPEEDY STANDING NEAR SMOKEY, HEARD THE
l
21
22
SHOT, SAW SMOKE OR SOMETHING THAT INDICATED OR SHOWED
YOU THERE WAS A SHOOTING; IS THAT CORRECT?
l
23 A. YES. l
24 Q. WAS ANYTHING ELSE HAPPENING OR WAS SPEEDY DOING
25 ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU SAW AROUND THAT TIME? l
27 Q. WAS HE POINTING A GUN AT HIM OR WAS HE PUTTING l
28 HIS ARM OUT IN FRONT OF HIM OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
l
1
r 1225
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW WAS HE DOING THAT?
r 3
4 HIM.
A. HE WAS JUST, WELL, LIKE POINTING THE GUN AT
r 5
6
Q.
A.
NOW, YOU SAID YOU NEVER SAW THE GUN.
NO, BUT I SEEN THE ARM. THAT WAS WHAT I SEEN.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
AND AT THAT TIME DID YOU HEAR THE SHOT?
YES.
r 9 Q. I GUESS YOU HEARD SEVERAL SHOTS.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WE ALSO HEARD THE PART IN THE TAPE WHERE THE
r 12
13
DETECTIVES WERE ASKING YOU HOW FAR YOU WERE AWAY AT THIS
TIME. DO YOU REMEMBER HEARING THAT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WILL YOU LOOK BACK AT PEOPLE'S 244 BEHIND YOU.
r 16 WE WENT OVER THIS THIS MORNING. THIS IS THE
r 17
18
FIRST PICTURE YOU SAW.
DO YOU THINK THAT IS FIVE FEET AWAY?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
IS THAT LONGER THAN FIVE FEET AWAY?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
AT SOME POINT WHILE YOU WERE IN THE PARK, WERE
r 23
24
YOU CLOSER THAN THAT?
A. NO.
r 25 Q. WERE YOU EVER BY THE PICNIC BENCHES?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
WELL, YEAH. YES.
THIS IS AT ALL TIMES IN THE PARK, NOT JUST AT
r 28 THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING THAT I'M ASKING ABOUT.
r
1226
l
l
1 SO AT SOME TIME WERE YOU CLOSER TO WHERE SPEEDY
2 WAS SHOT -- OR SPEEDY SHOT SMOKEY? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WERE YOU CLOSER TO SPEEDY AT SOME TIME DURING
l
5
6
THIS DAY AT THE PARK?
A. NO.
l
7 Q. YOU WERE ALWAYS THIS FAR AWAY FROM SPEEDY? 1 1
8 A. NO.
~I
9
10
11
Q. HOW ABOUT THE TIME YOU SAW SPEEDY TALKING WITH
HIS GIRLFRIEND BY THE FENCE?
A. WHAT ABOUT IT?
, 1
J
WERE YOU STANDING THERE TAKING A PEE DURING

12
13
Q.
THAT TIME?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
WERE YOU BY THE BENCHES AT THAT TIME?
l
16 A. WHEN WHAT? l
17 Q. YOU SAW SPEEDY WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND.
18 A. I WAS AT THE BENCHES. l
19 Q. BUT YOU WERE NOT FIVE FEET AWAY WHEN YOU WERE
20 PEEING AND THE GUNFIRE HAPPENED.
l
21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY DID WE HEAR YOU SAY YOU WERE FIVE FEET AWAY
l
23 WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE POLICE, IF YOU KNOW? l j
24 A. BECAUSE I WAS LYING.

25 Q. WHY WERE YOU LYING AT THAT TIME? l
26 A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT NO PROBLEMS. I DIDN'T
27 WANT TO SNITCH. l
WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT TO SNITCH?
28 Q.
l
l
r 1227
r
r
1 A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO. I JUST WANT
2 EVERYTHING TO BE GOOD.
r 3
4
Q. BEFORE LUNCH, WHEN WE WERE LISTENING TO THE
TAPE, WE HEARD YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT YOU WEREN'T EVEN
r 5
6
THERE.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER HEARING THAT?
YES.
r 7
8
Q. WE ALSO HEARD YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT YOU WERE
DRUNK AND THROWING UP AND SOME GIRL WALKED YOU HOME. DO
r 9 YOU REMEMBER HEARING THAT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WAS THAT TRUE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU THROW UP?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
WHEN YOU SAID, WE HEARD, THAT YOU WEREN'T AT
r 16 THE PARK, WAS THAT TRUE?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
WHEN YOU FIRST TOLD THE POLICE, WHEN WE HEARD
r 19
20
THIS MORNING, THAT YOU WERE NEVER THERE, WAS THAT
TRUE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY DID YOU TELL THE POLICE THESE THINGS AT THE
r 23 START OF THE INTERVIEW?
r 24
25
A.
NOTHING.
BECAUSE I JUST -- I DIDN'T WANT NOBODY TO KNOW
r 26
27
Q. WE HEARD EARLIER THIS MORNING THAT YOU TOLD US
THE POLICE MADE YOU SAY THINGS THAT YOU DIDN'T WANT TO
r 28 SAY. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
r
1228
1
l
1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
WE HEARD JUST IN THE LAST FEW MINUTES ABOUT
,
3 WHAT YOU SAW ABOUT THE SHOOTING, WHAT YOU TOLD THE
4 POLICE. DO YOU REMEMBER HEARING THAT?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DID THE POLICE MAKE YOU SAY THAT?
l
7 A. NO. l
8 Q. DID YOU SAY THAT ON YOUR OWN?
9 A. SAID THE WHAT? l
10 Q. WHY DID YOU -- DID THE POLICE MAKE YOU SAY
11 THOSE THINGS? l
12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY DID YOU SAY THOSE THINGS?
l
14 A. BECAUSE JUST FOR THE -- JUST -- I DON'T KNOW.
l
15 I JUST SAID IT.
16 Q. IS THAT BECAUSE YOU SAW THOSE THINGS? l
17 A. WELL, I GUESS, YES.
18 Q. THE THINGS YOU TOLD US ABOUT THIS MORNING, DID l
19 YOU SEE THOSE THINGS?
20 A. YES.
l
21
22
Q.
A.
DO YOU LIKE THE POLICE?
NO.
l
23 Q. WHY NOT? l
24 A. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM.
25 Q. ARE YOU SCARED OF THE POLICE? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. ARE YOU SCARED OF THIS DETECTIVE TO MY RIGHT? l
28 NO.
A.
l
1
r 1229
r
r 1
2
Q. WE HEARD ANOTHER DETECTIVE TALKING TO YOU IN
THAT TAPE TOO, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
ARE YOU SCARED OF THAT DETECTIVE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
WERE EITHER OF THESE DETECTIVES MEAN TO YOU?
r 7 A. NO.
DID EITHER OF THESE DETECTIVES PROMISE YOU
r
8 Q.
9 ANYTHING?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
NO.
WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THESE DETECTIVES, DID
r 12
13
YOU THINK WHAT YOU WERE TELLING THEM WAS EVER GOING TO
LEAVE THOSE WALLS? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
SURE.
CAN YOU REPEAT IT AGAIN?
THE THINGS YOU WERE TELLING THE
r 16 DETECTIVES AT JUVENILE HALL, DID YOU THINK THEY WERE
r 17
18
GOING TO KEEP IT A SECRET?
A. I GUESS, YES.
r 19
20
Q. DID YOU THINK THAT YOU WOULD EVER BE IN COURT
TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS LIKE YOU ARE NOW?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU EVER WANT TO BE IN COURT TALKING ABOUT
r 23 THESE THINGS?
r 24
25
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY?
r 26
27
A. BECAUSE I JUST DIDN'T WANT NOBODY TO KNOW THAT
I'M A SNITCH.
r 28 Q. YOU'VE COME TO COURT THREE TIMES NOW; IS THAT
r
1230
l
l
1 RIGHT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. EACH OF THOSE TIMES YOU FLEW HERE FROM MEXICO;
4 IS THAT RIGHT?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU ALSO CAME WITH YOUR GRANDFATHER BECAUSE
l
7 YOU'RE 16; IS THAT RIGHT?
l
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DID YOU PAY FOR THOSE TICKETS? l
10 A. NO.
11 Q. DID MY OFFICE PAY FOR THOSE TICKETS? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHILE YOU'RE HERE, YOU'RE ALSO STAYING IN A
l
14
15
HOTEL WITH YOUR GRANDFATHER; IS THAT RIGHT?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. AND THAT'S JUST LIKE THE OTHER TWO TIMES, l
17 CORRECT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. ARE YOU PAYING FOR THAT HOTEL?
20 A. NO.
l
21
22
Q.
A.
MY OFFICE IS PAYING FOR THAT HOTEL, RIGHT?
YES.
l
23 Q. WHEN YOU'RE DONE HERE, LIKE THE OTHER TWO
l
24 TIMES, YOU AND YOUR GRANDFATHER WILL FLY BACK DOWN TO
25 MEXICO; IS THAT RIGHT? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND WE PAID FOR THOSE TICKETS AS WELL, CORRECT? l
28 A. YES.
l
1
r 1231
r
r 1
2
Q. DID ANYBODY THIS TIME OR THE OTHER TWO TIMES
FORCE YOU TO GET ONTO THE PLANE IN MEXICO?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY DID YOU THEN GET ON THE PLANE TO COME BACK
r 5
6
HERE KNOWING YOU WOULD BE A SNITCH?
A. BECAUSE I JUST WANTED TO COME. I WAS LIKE,
r 7
8
"THEY ALREADY KNOW. THE PEOPLE ALREADY KNOW THAT,"
BECAUSE, WELL, PEOPLE WILL TELL OTHER PEOPLE. AND I
r 9 JUST KNEW, "WELL, OH, WELL, I'LL GO TO COURT AGAIN."
r 10
11
Q.
TRUTH?
DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO TELL THE
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
IS THAT YOUR ONE JOB AS A WITNESS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE JURY KNOWS
r 16
17
THE TRUTH?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
r 18 Q. THESE PEOPLE HERE LISTENING, DO YOU THINK IT'S
r 19
20
IMPORTANT THAT THEY KNOW THE TRUTH?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
IS THAT WHY YOU GOT ON THAT PLANE?
YES.
r 23
24
Q. ANDRES, THE THINGS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT UP TO
THIS POINT IN COURT, HAVE YOU BEEN CONFUSED ABOUT ANY OF
r 25 THEM?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
TODAY?
YES.
r 28 A. NO.
r
, j
1232
1
2
Q. THE TIMES YOU HAVE BEEN CONFUSED, HAVE YOU
ASKED ME TO EXPLAIN MYSELF?
,
l
J
3 A. YES.
4 Q. DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN CONTINUE DOING THAT IF
l
5
6
SOMEONE ELSE WERE TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS?
A. YES.
l
7 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE NO FURTHER
l
8 QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY BEGIN YOUR
11 EXAMINATION. l
12
13 THE COURT: WE'LL TAKE A BREAK IN 12 MINUTES.
l
14
15
I'M GOING TO PASS OUT SOME TRANSCRIPTS. I'M
l
16 GOING TO PLAY PORTIONS OF THE INTERVIEW AS WELL. l
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE MIGHT NOT GET THAT FAR, l
19 BUT SO BE IT.
20 THIS IS GOING TO BE EXHIBIT NN. IT IS A
l
21
22
TRANSCRIPT OF AN INTERVIEW ON JANUARY 28, 2010. I'LL
PUT THE COURT COPY ON THE EXHIBIT TABLE, YOUR HONOR, AND
l
23 GIVE YOU A COURTESY COPY. 1
J
24 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NN, TRANSCRIPT OF

25 INTERVIEW WITH ANDRES L., WAS MARKED FOR l
26 IDENTIFICATION.)
27 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AGAIN, WHEN l
28 YOU RECEIVE THESE TRANSCRIPTS, LET'S NOT LOOK AT THEM
l
l
r 1233
r 1 UNTIL OUR ATTENTION IS INVITED TO A PARTICULAR PAGE OR

r 2 PART OF IT.
r 3
4
{DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT PP, TRANSCRIPT OF
INTERVIEW WITH ANDRES L., WAS MARKED FOR
r 5
6
IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO PASS OUT
r 7
8
ANOTHER EXHIBIT. IT'S GOING TO BE PP, YOUR HONOR, WITH
THE TRANSCRIPT MARKED "COPY" ON THE TABLE AND GIVE YOU A
r 9 COURTESY COPY.
r 10
11
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 12
13
Q. ANDRES, WE'VE DONE THIS BEFORE, RIGHT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
A COUPLE TIMES.
r 16
17
I'M GOING TO CALL YOU ANDRES DURING THE COURSE
OF THE TESTIMONY. I KNOW THE JUDGE INSTRUCTED ME TO DO
r 18 SO, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU IF THAT'S OKAY IF I CALL YOU
r 19
20
BY YOUR FIRST NAME?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. THANK YOU.
ANDRES, YESTERDAY YOU HAD A MEETING WITH THE
r 23
24
DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN THIS CASE, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 25 Q. WHO ELSE WAS PRESENT AT THIS MEETING?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
WHEN?
WHO ELSE WAS PRESENT?
r 28 A. WHEN?
r
1234
l
l
1 Q. YESTERDAY. AND, ANDRES, BEFORE WE GO ANY
2 FURTHER, JUST LIKE MR. TROCHA, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO l
3 DO THE SAME THING. IF THERE IS ANY QUESTION THAT YOU
4 DON'T UNDERSTAND, PLEASE TELL ME YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT
l
5
6
AND I'LL ASK IT AGAIN IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
A. ALL RIGHT.
OKAY?
l
7 Q. YESTERDAY, WHO ELSE WAS AT THE MEETING THAT YOU l
8 HAD?
9 A. JUST THE DETECTIVE RIGHT HERE, SAL CAMPOS. l
10 Q. SAL CAMPOS, THE GENTLEMAN SITTING TO YOUR RIGHT
11 WEARING A WHITE POLO? l
A. YES.
12
13 Q. THANK YOU.
l
14
15 A.
WHO ELSE.
MY GRANDPA.
l
16 Q. AND HE'S IN THE COURTROOM TODAY AS WELL? l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHO ELSE? l
19 A. ME, THE D.A. AND TWO OTHER DETECTIVES.
20 Q. KRISTIAN TROCHA BEING THE D.A., THE GENTLEMAN
l
21
22
SITTING HERE IN THE SUIT NEXT TO DETECTIVE LAMBERT?
A. YES.
l
23 Q. AND TWO ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATORS? l
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND DURING THAT MEETING, YOU WALKED AROUND THIS l
26 PARK HERE, WHAT'S DEPICTED IN EXHIBIT 2?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND DURING THIS MEETING, YOU HAD CONVERSATIONS
l
, 1
)
r 1235
r 1 WITH THEM?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
THE PARK?
YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT AT
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WERE YOU SHOWN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE PARK?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
WHAT?
DID THEY SHOW YOU DIFFERENT SPOTS IN THE PARK?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
DID THEY SHOW YOU WHERE THE SHOOTING HAPPENED?
DID I SHOW THEM OR THEY SHOWED ME?
12 Q. DID YOU SHOW THEM WHERE THE SHOOTING OCCURRED?

r: 13 A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. THEY SHOWED YOU?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES HIS
r 16
17
TESTIMONY.

r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. I
r 19
20
JUST DIDN'T GET THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.
TRYING TO -- LET ME REPHRASE.

I WAS
r 21
22
THE COURT:
YOU MAY.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DID THEY SHOW YOU OR DID YOU SHOW THEM?
I SHOWED THEM.
r 25 Q. OKAY. AND YOU SHOWED THEM WHERE YOU WERE
r 26
27
STANDING?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. AND DURING THIS CONVERSATION, THEY WERE TAKING
r
1236
l
l
1 PICTURES, RIGHT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. AND YOU DIRECTED THEM WHERE TO TAKE THE
4 PICTURES?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
LET'S GO TO SOME OF THE THINGS YOU SAID.
l
7 YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD MET SPEEDY ON 3-8 DAY
l
8 2009, CORRECT?
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. AND THAT WAS THE DAY THAT HE JUMPED YOU INTO
11 THE GANG. l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DID YOU TESTIFY AT A PRIOR HEARING BACK ON
l
14
15
APRIL 1, 2010?
A. WHAT?
l
16 THE COURT: DID YOU COME TO COURT LAST APRIL, l
17 APRIL 2010, AND TALK LIKE YOU'RE DOING HERE TODAY?
18 THE WITNESS: I CAME, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT l
19 EXACTLY IS THE DATE.
l
21
22
Q. BACK NOT THE LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED BUT THE
l
23 TIME BEFORE THAT -- DO YOU REMEMBER? l
24 A. WELL, YES, I REMEMBER.
25 Q. BECAUSE YOU REMEMBER YOU TESTIFIED TWO TIMES, l
26 RIGHT?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AND THE FIRST TIME WAS MAYBE ABOUT A YEAR AGO?
l
1
r 1237
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
THE FIRST TIME I CAME HERE?
CORRECT. THE FIRST TIME YOU TESTIFIED WAS
r 3
4
ABOUT MAYBE A LITTLE LESS THAN A YEAR AGO, RIGHT?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 5
6 AGO?
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT SOUND ABOUT RIGHT, A YEAR
r 7
8
A.
Q.
MAYBE, YES.
AND THE SECOND TIME YOU TESTIFIED WAS MAYBE
r 9 FIVE MONTHS AGO OR MAYBE A HALF A YEAR AGO?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
I'M NOT REALLY SURE.
OKAY. BUT IT WAS TWO TIMES?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
AT THAT FIRST TIME, JUST LIKE NOW, YOU SWORE TO
r 14
15
TELL THE TRUTH, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 16 Q. ACTUALLY, BOTH TIMES YOU SWORE TO TELL THE
r 17
18
TRUTH.
A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
JUST LIKE TODAY, YOU SWORE TO TELL THE TRUTH.
YES.
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. AND ON DIRECT YOU ACKNOWLEDGED THAT IT'S
IMPORTANT TO YOU, RIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND BACK THEN, WAS IT IMPORTANT TO YOU JUST
r 25 LIKE IT IS NOW?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
WHAT YOU MEAN "BACK THEN"?
BACK WHEN YOU TESTIFIED IN A PRIOR HEARING,
r 28 EITHER ONE, THE 16 MONTHS AGO OR A YEAR AGO, IT WAS
r
1238
l
l
1 IMPORTANT TO YOU THEN JUST LIKE IT IS NOW, RIGHT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. READING FROM THE PRELIMINARY HEARING
4 TRANSCRIPT, PAGE 82, LINES -- I'M GOING TO READ LINES 20
l
5
6
THROUGH 28.
THIS TRANSCRIPT.
THE JURY SHOULD KNOW THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE
l
l
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO READ FROM LINES
9 20 THROUGH 28, AND I'M GOING TO PAGE 83 AND READ LINES 1 l
10 THROUGH 8.
11 THE COURT: ANDRES, DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IS l
12 HAPPENING HERE?
l
14
15
THE COURT: HE'S GOING TO READ FROM A BOOK
THAT'S GOT WHAT YOU SAID THE OTHER TIME IN COURT, THE
l
16 FIRST TIME. OKAY? AND WE WOULD LIKE YOU TO LISTEN TO l
17 IT, AND YOU MIGHT BE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.
18 DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? l
l
21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
CITED THE WRONG PAGE.
ACTUALLY, YOUR HONOR, I
I'M GOING TO READ PAGE 96, LINES
l
23 19 THROUGH 20.
l
25 Q. YOU WERE BEING ASKED ON THAT DAY ABOUT THE DAY l
26 IN THE PARK. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. DURING THE HEARING YOU WERE ASKED:
l
1
r 1239
r
r
1 "QUESTION: DID YOU EVER SEE SPEEDY AGAIN AFTER
2 THAT DAY?
r 3
4
"ANSWER: NO."
DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT, ANDRES?
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA: I'M GOING TO OBJECT.
TIME AND WHICH DAY IN THE PARK.
VAGUE AS TO
r 8
9
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, I MEAN, I CAN READ
MORE OF THE TRANSCRIPT IF THAT'S WHAT COUNSEL WOULD
r 10
11
LIKE.
THE COURT: WELL, I GUESS WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS
r 12
13
SOMEBODY SET THE STAGE.
SENSE AS TO WHAT THE STAGE IS.
THE TWO OF YOU SHOULD HAVE SOME
SO WHAT INCIDENT ARE WE
r 14
15
TALKING ABOUT HERE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
r 16 TRANSCRIPT HE'S BEING ASKED ABOUT THE DAY IN THE PARK.
r 17
18
I MEAN, IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS, BUT WE MIGHT HAVE TO GO
BACK A COUPLE PAGES TO FIND THAT.
r 19
20
THE COURT: LET ME JUST ASK: MR. TROCHA, DO
YOU HAVE ANY DISAGREEMENT THAT THIS PARTICULAR LINE OF
r 21
22
QUESTIONING WAS TALKING ABOUT THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING?
WE'RE LOOKING AT PAGES 96
r 23 MR. TROCHA: THE PROBLEM IS IT BOUNCED BACK AND
r 24
25
FORTH, SO I HAVE TO MAKE SURE IT IS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, TAKE A MOMENT.
r 26
27 SHOOTING.
MR. TROCHA: I AGREE IT IS ABOUT THE DAY OF THE
r 28 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
r
1240
l
l
l
2
3
4
Q. SO, ANDRES, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU AGAIN:
REMEMBER YOU WERE BEING ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE DAY OF
THE SHOOTING
DO YOU
,
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
-- BACK A YEAR AGO?
l
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. YOU WERE ASKED WITH REGARD TO THE DAY OF THE
9 SHOOTING: l
10 "QUESTION: DID YOU EVER SEE SPEEDY AGAIN AFTER
11 THAT DAY? l
12 "ANSWER: NO."
13 THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID UNDER OATH A YEAR AGO,
l
14
15
CORRECT?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT.
1
16 Q. TODAY YOUR TESTIMONY IS THAT YOU SAW HIM IN l
17 2009 ON 3-8 DAY, WHICH WOULD BE AFTER THE SHOOTING,
18 CORRECT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WELL, WHEN DID YOU MEET SPEEDY, ANDRES?
l
21
22
A.
Q.
I MET HIM TWICE.
WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU MET HIM?
l
23
24
A. I MET HIM IN LIKE AROUND 2007 OR 2008.
1
Q. WHEN WERE YOU INTRODUCED TO HIM FOR THE FIRST
25 TIME WHERE YOU TALKED TO HIM? l
26 A. AT A PARK, SOUTH CREST.
27 Q. SOUTH CREST PARK? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 1241
r
r 1
2
Q.
A.
WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER MOISES WAS SHOT?
BEFORE.
r 3
4
Q. BEFORE?
THAT SAME HEARING, WHEN YOU TOOK AN OATH,
r 5
6
ANDRES, I'M NOW GOING BACK TO WHAT I HAD BEFORE.
THE COURT: PAGE?
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
AND LINES 1 THROUGH 8.
PAGE 82, LINES 20 THROUGH 28
r 9 "QUESTION: HOW DO YOU KNOW SPEEDY?
r 10
11
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
BECAUSE I MET HIM.
WHERE DID YOU MEET HIM?
r 12
13
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
IN THE PARK.
MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
r 14
15
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
YES.
IS THIS THE LITTLE PARK WE'RE
r 16
17
TALKING ABOUT UP BY FRANKLIN AND 40TH?
"ANSWER: YES.
r 18 "QUESTION: WHEN DID YOU MEET HIM?
r 19
20
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
2008.
WAS THIS IN SEPTEMBER?
r 21
22
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT MONTH.
WAS THIS THE DATE MOISES DIED?
r 23 "ANSWER: YES.
r 24
25
"QUESTION:
AT ANY TIME?
DID YOU MEET SPEEDY BEFORE THAT DAY
r 26
27
"ANSWER: I SEEN HIM, BUT I NEVER MET HIM."
ANDRES, OCEAN VIEW PARK AND SOUTH CREST PARK
r 28 ARE TWO DIFFERENT PARKS, CORRECT?
r
1242
1
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. SO YOU JUST TESTIFIED THAT YOU MET HIM BEFORE 1
,
3 THE DAY MOISES PASSED AWAY, RIGHT?
4 A. WHAT DID YOU SAY? CAN YOU REPEAT THAT? l
5 Q. I JUST ASKED YOU WHEN YOU HAD MET MR.
1
6 DOMINGUEZ, OR SPEEDY -- YOU KNOW HIM AS SPEEDY, RIGHT?
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. YOU SAID YOU MET HIM AT SOUTH CREST PARK BEFORE
9 THE DATE THAT MOISES PASSED AWAY, RIGHT? 1
10 A. BEFORE THE DAY?
11 Q. IS THAT NOT WHAT YOU JUST TOLD ME WHEN I ASKED l
12 THAT QUESTION?
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q. IN THE PRIOR HEARING A YEAR AGO, DID YOU HEAR
WHAT I JUST READ TO YOU?
l
16 A. YES. l
17 Q. IN THAT HEARING, YOU MADE THOSE STATEMENTS,
18 RIGHT? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. YOU WERE UNDER OATH AT THAT TIME, CORRECT? l
21
22
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "UNDER OATH"?
JUST LIKE TODAY, YOU CAME INTO COURT AND YOU
l
23 SWORE YOU WOULD TELL THE TRUTH, RIGHT?
l
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WERE YOU TELLING THE TRUTH AT THE HEARING A l
26 YEAR AGO OR ARE YOU TELLING THE TRUTH NOW?
27 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. l
l
,
r 1243
r 2 Q. WHICH ONE IS THE TRUTH?
r 3
4
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 5
6
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOU MET SPEEDY, ANDRES?
r 7
8
A. WELL, I'M NOT REALLY GOOD WITH THE DATES, LIKE
I SAID IN THE MORNING.
r 9 Q. YOU USED THINGS AS A POINT OF REFERENCE INSTEAD
r 10
11
OF DATES, RIGHT?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN AS "REFERENCE?"
r 12
13
Q.
STOPPING ME.
LET'S BREAK THIS DOWN, AND THANK YOU FOR
r 14
15 RIGHT?
YOU'RE NOT GOOD WITH DATES, LIKE YOU SAID,
r 16 A. YEAH.
r 17
18
Q. BUT YOU CAN DEAL WITH THINGS WHEN YOU HAVE AN
IDEA OF COMPARING IT TO SOMETHING ELSE, RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
YEAH. FOR EXAMPLE, IF I SAY "WAS THE DATE, YOU
F' 21 KNOW, THREE MONTHS AGO?" YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO TELL
l
22 ME, RIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
BUT IF I SAID, "WHEN WAS, YOU KNOW, YOUR
r 25 BIRTHDAY? WAS IT BEFORE YOUR BIRTHDAY OR AFTER YOUR
r 26
27
BIRTHDAY," IF I ASKED YOU ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED,
THE FACT THAT I USE YOUR BIRTHDAY TO HELP YOU, THAT
r 28 WOULD HELP YOU DISCERN -- SORRY -- THAT WOULD HELP YOU
r
1244
l
l
1 FIGURE OUT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING?
l
4
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENED IN
YOUR LIFE THAT'S BEEN PRETTY SIGNIFICANT IS THE DAY
,
l
,
7 MOISES WAS SHOT, RIGHT?
8 A. YES.
9
10
Q. SO IF I ASKED YOU IF SOMETHING HAPPENED BEFORE
THAT DAY OR AFTER THAT DATE, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD BE
,
11
12
13
ABLE TO TELL ME ACCURATELY?
A.
Q.
MAYBE NOT.
OKAY. SO DURING YOUR INTERVIEW -- ON DIRECT WE
,
14
15
WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME ISSUE AS TO WHEN YOU MET
MR. DOMINGUEZ, OR SPEEDY. YOU SAID DURING THE INTERVIEW
l
16 THAT YOU HAD BEEN JUMPED IN AT THE PARK, AT OCEAN VIEW l
17 PARK, BY SPEEDY, RIGHT? YOU HEARD THAT IN THE
18 INTERVIEW. l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. BUT THEN TODAY YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE JUMPED IN l
21 AT HIS HOUSE IN SPRING VALLEY, RIGHT?
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
TODAY?
YES. EARLIER YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE
JUMPED IN AT HIS HOUSE IN SPRING VALLEY, RIGHT?
,
25 A. I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT. l
26 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT TODAY?
27 A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER. l
28 Q. OKAY. WERE YOU JUMPED IN AT HIS HOUSE IN
l
,
r 1245
r
r 1
2
3
SPRING VALLEY?
A.
Q.
AT SPEEDY'S HOUSE?
YES.
[ 4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AND THAT HAPPENED ON 3-8 DAY IN 2009?
I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT YEAR, BUT ALL I REMEMBER
r 7
8
IS THE 3-8 DAY.
Q. YOU SAID IT HAPPENED AFTER THE DATE MOISES HAD
r 9 PASSED AWAY, RIGHT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
MOISES PASSED AWAY IN 2008, SEPTEMBER, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
SO THE NEXT 3-8 DAY WOULD HAVE BEEN MARCH 2009,
r 14
15
RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q. YOUR INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE LAMBERT THAT WE
LISTENED TO WAS DONE IN APRIL 2009, RIGHT?
r 18 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS APRIL, BUT
r 19
20
Q. SO HOW CLOSE WAS THAT INTERVIEW TO WHEN YOU GOT
JUMPED IN?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THE INTERVIEW?
HOW MUCH TIME HAD PASSED BETWEEN WHEN YOU WERE
r 23
24
JUMPED IN BY SPEEDY AND YOU HAD YOUR INTERVIEW WITH
DETECTIVE LAMBERT?
r 25 DO YOU NEED ME TO REPHRASE IT, ANDRES?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
WHEN YOU WERE JUMPED IN BY SPEEDY AFTER YOU
r 28 WERE JUMPED IN, THERE WAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME THAT
r
1246
,
l
1 WENT BY BETWEEN THAT DATE AND WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWED
2 BY THE POLICE, RIGHT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH TIME WENT BY? l
5
6
A.
Q.
NO, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH TIME WENT BY.
WAS IT A YEAR?
l
7 A. NO.
l
8 Q. WAS THAT A "NO"?
9 A. NO. 1
10 Q. IT WAS NOT A YEAR?
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. HOW ARE YOU WITH JUDGING TIME?
13 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "JUDGING TIME?" LIKE TELLING
l
14
15
TIME?
Q. NOT TELLING TIME IN THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT A
l
16 CLOCK AND READ IT, BUT THAT YOU CAN ESTIMATE LONG l
17 PERIODS OF TIME, LIKE SIX MONTHS, A YEAR, TWO YEARS, TEN
18 YEARS. 1
19 A. I'M NOT THAT GOOD.
20 Q. BUT DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MONTH l
,
l
21 AND A YEAR.
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WHICH IS LONGER?
J
24 A. A YEAR.
25 Q. IS IT A LOT LONGER? l
26 A. A LOT LONGER THAN A MONTH?
27 Q. IS A YEAR A LOT LONGER THAN A MONTH? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 1247
r
1 Q. HOW MANY MONTHS ARE IN A YEAR?
r 2 A. I GUESS 12. 12.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
HOW MANY WEEKS ARE IN A MONTH?
FOUR.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
HOW MANY HOURS ARE IN A DAY?
24.
r 7
8
Q.
MANY HOURS?
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN COURT TODAY? HOW
r 10
11
Q.
A.
CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ESTIMATE?
LIKE FOUR, THREE HOURS.
r 12
13
Q. SO KNOWING THAT WE HAVE 12 MONTHS IN A YEAR,
FOUR WEEKS IN A MONTH, 24 HOURS IN A DAY, I'M GOING TO
r 14
15
ASK YOU THE QUESTION AGAIN.
FROM THE TIME YOU GOT JUMPED IN AT SPEEDY'S
r 16
17
HOUSE UNTIL THE TIME YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY THE
DETECTIVES, HOW MUCH TIME WENT BY?
r 18 A. LIKE TWO MONTHS, I GUESS.
19 Q. TWO MONTHS?
r 20 A. I GUESS.
r 21
22
Q. IN THE INTERVIEW THEY ASKED YOU WHERE YOU WERE
JUMPED IN, RIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND WE HEARD THAT YOU TOLD THEM OCEAN VIEW PARK
r 25 BY SPEEDY, RIGHT?
26 A. WHAT INTERVIEW? THE ONE THE DETECTIVE WAS --

r 27 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE
r 28 LAMBERT. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT ONE WHEN YOU WERE IN
r
1248
l
.l
1 JUVENILE HALL?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. THEY ASKED YOU IF YOU WERE JUMPED AND WHERE YOU
l
4
5
6
WERE JUMPED IN.
SPEEDY, RIGHT?
A. YES.
YOUR ANSWER WAS OCEAN VIEW PARK BY
,
7 Q. YOU DID NOT SAY AT THAT TIME AT A HOUSE IN
SPRING VALLEY BY SPEEDY, RIGHT?
l
8
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. WHY NOT?
11 A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW JUST THAT SPEEDY l
12 WOULD JUMP ME IN OR WHERE WAS HE AT OR -- I DON'T KNOW.
13 I JUST -- I DIDN'T WANT TO.
l
14
15
Q. WOULD THAT HAVE GOTTEN YOU IN MORE TROUBLE IF
YOU TOLD THEM WHERE?
l
16 A. WELL, I GUESS FOR ME, YES. l
17 Q. WHY?
18 A. I DON'T KNOW. JUST -- I DON'T KNOW. JUST MY l
19 MIND OR I DON'T KNOW. JUST WEIRD.
20 Q. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOUR MIND? l
21
22
A.
Q.
WELL, NOT MY MIND. JUST, I DON'T KNOW.
YOU SAID YOU WERE JUMPED IN THREE TIMES,
l
23
24
ANDRES.
YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO MOVE ON. DO YOU WANT
1
25 TO TAKE A BREAK? l
26 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE. THANK YOU FOR THAT
27 REMINDER. l
28 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S LEAVE THE
l
1
r 1249
r 1 NOTEBOOKS, PENS AND TRANSCRIPTS ON THE CHAIRS. WE'LL

r 2 RECONVENE AT FIVE MINUTES BEFORE THE HOUR OF THREE.
r
L
3
4
PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. WE ARE IN RECESS.
(MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.)
r 5
6
ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT.
ANDRES IS BACK
r 7
8
WITH US. THANK YOU, ANDRES.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
r
11 Q. ANDRES, JUST PRIOR TO THE BREAK, WE WERE
r 12
13
TALKING ABOUT YOU ESTIMATING THE TIME BEFORE YOUR
INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE LAMBERT AND WHEN YOU GOT JUMPED
r 14
15
IN. YOU SAID TWO MONTHS, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 16
17
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT MM, AUDIOTAPED INTERVIEW
OF ANDRES L., WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO PLAY SOMETHING
r 19
20
FROM AN AUDIOTAPE, YOUR HONOR, AND THIS IS GOING TO BE
FROM WHAT WOULD BE EXHIBIT MM ON THE AUDIO. I HAVE THE
r 21
22
AUDIO EXHIBIT MM, AND THE TRANSCRIPT IS THE 4/8
INTERVIEW SO IT WOULD BE TRANSCRIPT -- ACTUALLY, THE
r 23
24
TRANSCRIPT OF THIS IS A PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT, AND THAT'S
PEOPLE'S 264A.

26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO PLAY FROM LINE
r 27 23 OVER TO THE NEXT PAGE TO LINE 2.
r 28 THE COURT: WHAT PAGE, PLEASE?
r
1250
l
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PAGES 2 AND 3, 23 TO 28, AND
2 THEN 1 AND 2 FOR THE LINES. l
3 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY. NORMAL RULES
1]
4 WILL APPLY. THE COURT REPORTER WILL NOT REPORT WHAT IS
5
6
PLAYED. WE'RE WORKING OFF 264 AND 264A NOW.
THANK YOU.
l
7
8
{AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.)
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SORRY, YOUR HONOR. THAT
1
9 WASN'T IT. l
10 THE COURT: IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS IT, ACTUALLY.
11 IT STARTED A LITTLE BIT LATER. IT STARTED AT LINE 26, l
12 ABOUT.
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. SORRY ABOUT THAT.
l
14
15
LET ME BACK IT UP.
THE COURT: ANDRES, WE'RE LOOKING AT PAGE 2,
l
16 AND WE'LL START SOMEWHERE AROUND LINE 22 OR 23. l
18 (AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.) l
20 Q. DID YOU HEAR THAT, ANDRES? l
21
22
A. YEAH.
THE COURT: FOR THE RECORD, THIS WENT FROM PAGE
l
23
24
2, LINES APPROXIMATELY 23 OR SLIGHTLY BEFORE IT, THROUGH
PAGE 3, LINE 2.
l
27 Q. AT THAT TIME YOU TOLD THE DETECTIVES THAT YOU l
28 GOT JUMPED IN LAST YEAR, RIGHT?
l
,
r 1251
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
YES.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. SO AT THAT TIME HAD YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT
r 5
6
THE SPRING VALLEY INCIDENT OR --
A. AT WHAT TIME?
r 7
8
Q. AT THE TIME YOU GAVE THE INTERVIEW TO DETECTIVE
PINARELLI AND DETECTIVE LAMBERT, HAD YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT
r 9
10
BEING JUMPED IN TWO MONTHS EARLIER?
A. NO.
c 11 Q. SO WHY DID YOU TELL THEM IT WAS A YEAR AGO?
r 12
13
A. BECAUSE I JUST DIDN'T -- I DON'T WANT THE
DETECTIVE OR THE POLICE TO KNOW.
[ 14 Q. WELL, YOU WERE TELLING THEM THAT YOU WERE

15 JUMPED IN, THAT YOU WERE PART OF A GANG, RIGHT?
r 16 A. YES.
r
17 Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE IF THEY KNOW WHETHER IT
18 WAS TWO MONTHS AGO OR A YEAR AGO?
r 19
20
A.
AGAIN?
WELL, BECAUSE -- WELL, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT
r 21
22
Q. WHY WOULD IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF YOU TOLD THEM
THE TRUTH, WHICH WAS IT WAS TWO MONTHS AGO VERSUS
r 23
24
TELLING THEM IT WAS A YEAR AGO?
QUESTION.
I'LL WITHDRAW THAT
r 25 WHICH ONE WAS TRUE? WAS IT A YEAR AGO OR WAS
r 26
27
IT TWO MONTHS BEFORE THAT INTERVIEW?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. CALLS
r 28 FOR A CONCLUSION AND MISSTATES HIS TESTIMONY.
r
1252
,
l
2 WHICH ONE IS CORRECT, SIR, AS TO WHEN YOU GOT l
3 JUMPED IN?
4 THE WITNESS: WELL, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN? l
5 I DIDN'T GET IT. ~
j
6 THE COURT: SURE. TRY AGAIN, MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
7
8
Q. WHICH IS TRUE, ANDRES? WERE YOU JUMPED IN TWO
l
9 MONTHS BEFORE THE INTERVIEW OR THE YEAR BEFORE THE l
10 INTERVIEW?
11 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. BOTH CAN l
12 BE TRUE, GIVEN HIS PRIOR TESTIMONY.
13 THE COURT: THAT IS TRUE. SUSTAINED.
l
14
15
Q. OKAY. WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THEM ABOUT BEING
l
16 JUMPED IN TWO MONTHS AGO? l
17 A. BECAUSE IT WAS I JUST -- I DIDN'T REALLY
18 TELL THEM. THAT'S IT. l
19 JUROR NO. 11: JUDGE?
20 THE COURT: JUROR IN SEAT NO. 11, YES, MA'AM? l
21
22
JUROR NO. 11:
EVIDENCE, NOT THIS.
WELL, YOU SAID THE TAPE IS THE
l
23 THE COURT: YES.
l
24 JUROR NO. 11: BUT HERE ON LINE 2 WHERE IT SAYS
25 "UNINTELLIGIBLE," I CAN HEAR WHAT HE SAYS. l
26 THE COURT: I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE. I CAN HEAR
27 IT TOO. l
28 JUROR NO. 11: WHICH IS NOT WHAT IS BEING
l
,
r 1253
r 1 STATED.
r 2 THE COURT: WELL, I -- WELL, LET'S EXPLORE
r 3
4
THAT. THE TESTIMONY -- THE EVIDENCE IS WHAT YOU HEAR
FROM THE RECORDING. SOMETIMES IT WILL SAY
r 5
6
"UNINTELLIGIBLE" WHEN, IN FACT, YOU CAN HEAR IT.
THINK I HEARD AN OCCASION MENTIONED IN THAT PARTICULAR
I
r 7
8
LINE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, RESTATE YOUR QUESTION, IF YOU
r 9
10
WOULD, PLEASE, AND LET'S GO FROM THERE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALL RIGHT.
[ 11 THE COURT: BUT YOU ARE CORRECT. LISTEN TO
r 12
13
WHAT -- AND IF THAT MAKES THE QUESTION NONRELEVANT TO
YOU OR MISLEADING TO YOU, THEN CONSIDER THAT WHEN YOU'RE
r 14
15
EVALUATING THE EVIDENCE.
r 16
17
Q. ON THE TRANSCRIPT, ANDRES, ON LINE 3 -- DO YOU
r 18 HAVE A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
WHICH ONE?
LET ME SHOW YOU. IT'S GOING TO BE THIS
r 21
22
TRANSCRIPT RIGHT HERE, ANDRES; PAGE 3, RIGHT HERE WHERE
IT SAYS "UNINTELLIGIBLE."
r 23
24 A.
DO YOU REMEMBER WE JUST LISTENED TO THIS?
YES.
r 25 Q. AND IT SAYS:
r 26
27 STREET.
"QUESTION: OKAY. YOU'RE STALKER FROM 38TH
AND HOW LONG -- HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN" -- IT
r 28 SAYS "UNINTELLIGIBLE."
r
1254
1
l
1 THE COURT: "UNINTELLIGIBLE" MEANS WE CAN'T
2 HEAR IT. 1
4 Q. ANDRES, THE ANSWER IS UNINTELLIGIBLE. l
5 "QUESTION: YEAH.
6 "ANSWER: LIKE A YEAR.
1
7
8 WHEN?
"QUESTION: A YEAR? AND YOU GOT JUMPED IN
l
9 "ANSWER: LAST YEAR." l
10 AND THEN ON LINE 1 IT SAYS, "UNINTELLIGIBLE,"
11 RIGHT? NOW, WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAID IS "ON 3-8 DAY," 1
12 RIGHT?
l
13
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
SO YOU WERE TELLING THEM DURING THAT INTERVIEW
THAT YOU WERE JUMPED IN ON 3-8 DAY, RIGHT?
,
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. BUT NOT THE 3-8 DAY THAT WAS A MONTH BEFORE THE
18 INTERVIEW. YOU SAID THE ONE THAT WAS LAST YEAR, l
19 CORRECT?
20 THE COURT: THE TRANSCRIPT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, l
21 AS DOES THE RECORDING. THANK YOU.
l
22
23
24
Q. YOUR TESTIMONY ON DIRECT EXAMINATION, ANDRES,
WAS THAT YOU WEREN'T BEING JUMPED IN THE DAY MOISES
,
25 PASSED AWAY, RIGHT? l
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. SMOKEY. DO YOU ALSO KNOW HIM AS MOISES? l
28 A. YES.
l
,
r 1255
r 1 Q. READING FROM THE PRELIMINARY HEARING
r 2 TRANSCRIPT, PAGE 118, LINES 8 THROUGH -- AND THE JURY
r
3 DOES NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE PRIOR HEARING TRANSCRIPT --
4 PAGE 118, LINES 7 THROUGH 19.
r 5
6
JUROR NO. 11:
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
WHAT'S THE DATE OF THAT?
THE DATE OF THE HEARING IS
r 7
8
APRIL 1, 2010.
"QUESTION: THE DAY THAT SMOKEY GOT SHOT, WERE
r 9 YOU GETTING JUMPED IN THAT DAY?
r 10
11
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
WAS I GETTING JUMPED IN?
RIGHT.
r 12
13
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
YES.
WERE YOU GETTING JUMPED IN ON THE
r 14
15
DAY SMOKEY GOT SHOT?
"ANSWER: YES.
r 16
17
"QUESTION:
BEFORE HE GOT SHOT?
HAD YOU BEEN JUMPED IN THE DAY
r 18 "ANSWER: NO. I JUST -- I WAS JUST CHECKED,
r 19
20
BUT I WASN'T JUMPED IN."
r 21
22
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE NEXT FOUR LINES WOULD MISSTATE HIS TESTIMONY FROM
READING OF
r 23
24
THE PRELIM.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. CONTINUE THE NEXT FOUR
r 25 LINES.
r 26
27
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION:
GETTING JUMPED IN WITH LITTLE CHUBS?
SO YOU WERE
r 28 "ANSWER: NO. IT WAS APART.
r
1
1256
l
1 "QUESTION: OKAY. THE DAY LITTLE CHUBS GOT
l
2
3
4
JUMPED IN, THAT WAS THE SAME DAY SMOKEY WAS SHOT,
CORRECT?
"ANSWER: YES."
, J
5 DO YOU WANT ME TO KEEP GOING?

6 MR. TROCHA: IT GOES OVER TO THE NEXT PAGE,
l
7
8
DOWN TO LINE 3, 119.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION: WERE YOU GETTING
l
9 JUMPED IN AT THE SAME TIME? l
10 "ANSWER: NO.
11 "QUESTION: HAD YOU ALREADY BEEN JUMPED IN? l
12 "ANSWER: NO."
13 MR. TROCHA: AND THEN -- l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
IN AFTER THE DAY AT THE PARK?
"QUESTION: YOU GOT JUMPED
l
16
17
"ANSWER:
AFTER THAT DAY."
l
18 Q. OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT, ANDRES? l
19 A. NO.
20 Q. YOU HAVE A HARD TIME WITH THE ORDER OF WHEN l
21 THINGS HAPPENED, RIGHT?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YOUR MEMORY ISN'T THAT GREAT; WOULD YOU AGREE?
YES.
l
25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING ABOUT CHUBS AND LIL l
26 CHUBS?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. WHO ARE THEY?
l
l
r 1257
r 1 A. WHO WERE THEY?
r 2 Q. YEAH.
r
3 A. WELL, THAT I KNOW OF, LIL CHUBS IS -- WELL,
4 HE'S YOUNG, AND I MET THIS OTHER CHUBS, HE TOLD ME HE
r 5
6
WAS AN OLDER CHUBS, BUT I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW HIM.
Q. OKAY. AND DURING YOUR INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE
r 7
8
PINARELLI AND DETECTIVE LAMBERT, YOU MENTIONED CHUBS AND
LIL CHUBS, RIGHT?
r 9
10
A. YES.
Q. YOU GAVE ANOTHER INTERVIEW TO DETECTIVE LAMBERT
r 11 IN JANUARY 2010, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A. YES.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. I'M GOING TO PLAY A
r 14
15
PORTION OF THAT INTERVIEW, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. THIS IS REFLECTED BY A
r 16
17
PART OF EXHIBIT NN THAT YOU WOULD INVITE OUR ATTENTION
TO?
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. IT'S GOING TO BE PAGES
r 19
20
12 AND 13 LINES, 18 THROUGH 28, AND THEN 1 THROUGH 18 ON
THE FOLLOWING PAGE.
r 21
22
THE COURT: AND DO I CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND THAT
THE AUDIO EXHIBIT IS EXHIBIT 00?
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
IT ON MY TABLE.
IT IS, YOUR HONOR.
I'LL BRING IT UP RIGHT NOW.
I HAVE
r 25
26
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 00, AUDIOTAPED INTERVIEW
OF ANDRES L., WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.}
r 27 THE COURT: 00 IS THE AUDIO, NN IS THE
r 28 TRANSCRIPT.
r
1258
l
~
1
1 JUROR NO. 9: YOUR HONOR?
2 THE COURT: YES, MR. JUROR IN SEAT 9. l
3 JUROR NO. 9: WE HAVE NO REFERENCES TO EXHIBIT
4 NUMBERS. ALL WE HAVE IS DATES ON THIS TRANSCRIPT. l
5 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THE TRANSCRIPT DATE IS
6 1/28/2010.
l
7
8
JUROR NO. 9:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR
FEEL FREE TO USE A PENCIL OR YOUR
l
9 PEN AND WRITE NN ON THAT TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE, WHEREVER IT l
10 IS CONVENIENT.
11 PAGES 12 AND 13. SO PAGE 12 ON THAT TRANSCRIPT l
12 IS WHERE WE BEGIN, APPROXIMATELY LINE 18, IF I HEARD
13 CORRECTLY. l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES.
THANK YOU.
l
16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR,
l
18 WE WENT TO LINE 19 ON PAGE 13. l
19 THE COURT: THAT IS CORRECT. THANK YOU.
21 Q. DID YOU HEAR THAT, ANDRES?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. WERE YOU TELLING THE DETECTIVE AT THAT TIME
THAT CHUBS -- THERE WAS ONLY ONE CHUBS, THERE WASN'T
l
25 TWO?
l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. YOU WEREN'T? OKAY. l
28 LET'S MOVE ON TO REALLY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE IS
l
,
r 1259
r 1 WHAT YOU SAID YOU SAW. YOU SAID ON DIRECT THAT YOU
r 2 DON'T REMEMBER SEEING A FIGHT, RIGHT?
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. YOU SAID ON DIRECT THAT DURING THE SHOOTING,
r 5
6
YOU COULD SEE THE FULL BODY OF THE SHOOTER, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q. YOU SAID THAT YOU COULD SEE SMOKEY ON THE
GROUND, RIGHT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
AND THAT HE WAS ALREADY LAYING DOWN.
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13 IT.
Q. YOU SAID YOU HEARD A FIGHT, BUT YOU DIDN'T SEE
r 14
15
A.
Q.
TRUE.
AND YOU SAID SOMEBODY WAS STANDING NEXT TO
r 16
17
SPEEDY, BUT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO.
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. MISSTATES HIS
r 18 TESTIMONY.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
ASK HIM IF HE SAID THAT.
r 21
22
Q. DID YOU SAY THAT, ANDRES, THAT SOMEBODY WAS
STANDING NEXT TO SPEEDY BUT YOU DIDN'T SEE WHO?
r 23
24 OBJECTION.
MR. TROCHA: I'M SORRY.
I THOUGHT HE SAID SMOKEY.

I WITHDRAW MY
r 26
27
THE WITNESS:
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
YES.
OKAY. THIS IS ANOTHER
r 28 TRANSCRIPT THAT THE JURY DOES NOT HAVE. IT'S A PRIOR
r
, l
1260
~
I
J
1 HEARING FROM OCTOBER 7, 2010.
4 Q. AND, ANDRES, THAT LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED WAS
5 ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS AGO; IS THAT RIGHT?
6 A. YEAH.
l
7 Q. AND JUST LIKE NOW, YOU WANTED TO TELL THE TRUTH
l
8
9
THAT DAY, RIGHT?
A. YES.
, J
10 JUROR NO. 11: CAN I INTERRUPT AGAIN? YOU JUST
11 SAID WE DON'T HAVE IT. IS THIS SOMETHING FROM THAT l

12 DATE?
13 THE COURT: THIS IS FROM 2010, I THINK. l

14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME CLARIFY.
TRANSCRIPT THAT IS FROM THE SAME DATE.

THERE IS A
ACTUALLY, THIS
l
16
17
IS OCTOBER 7TH, AND THAT TRANSCRIPT IS ALSO FROM OCTOBER
7TH. THAT IS NOT THE TRANSCRIPT THAT WE'RE REFERRING

l
18 TO. l
19 THE COURT: THE TRANSCRIPT WE'RE REFERRING TO
20 IS THE TRANSCRIPT OF A COURT HEARING, CORRECT? l
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CORRECT.
22 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. AND THANK
l
23
24
YOU, MADAM JUROR.
GO AHEAD.
l
l
27 Q. THIS IS GOING TO BE PAGE 25, LINES 5 THROUGH 9. l
28 "QUESTION: WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING, WAS SMOKEY
l
,
r 1261
r 1 STANDING OR WAS HE, AS YOU PUT IT, ON THE FLOOR?
r 2 "ANSWER: WELL, I DIDN'T REALLY SEE SMOKEY. I
r 3
4
JUST SEEN SPEEDY. HE WAS ON HIS FEET. AND SINCE IT WAS
LIKE A HILL GOING DOWN, I COULD JUST SEE SPEEDY'S HEAD."
r 5
6 ANDRES.
THE COURT: IT'S NOT ON THAT TRANSCRIPT,
DON'T BE TRYING TO READ IT.
r 7
8
Q. LET ME READ IT TO YOU AGAIN. OKAY?
r 9
10
A. YES.
THE COURT: THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HE'S READING

r 11 TO YOU FROM THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN COURT TALKING
r 12
13
ABOUT THE CASE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION: WHEN THIS WAS
r 14
15
HAPPENING, WAS SMOKEY STANDING OR WAS HE, AS YOU PUT IT,
ON THE FLOOR?
r 16
17
"ANSWER:
JUST SEEN SPEEDY.

WELL, I DIDN'T REALLY SEE SMOKEY.
HE WAS ON HIS FEET. AND SINCE IT WAS

I
r 18 LIKE A HILL GOING DOWN, I COULD JUST SEE SPEEDY'S HEAD."
r 19
20
THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 21
22
Q. AT THE TRIAL YOU SAID THAT YOU COULDN'T SEE HIS
r 23
24
BODY AT THAT POINT, RIGHT?
A. AT WHAT TRIAL?
r 25 Q. AT THE PRIOR HEARING ON OCTOBER 7, 2010.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
HE SAID THAT OR NOT.

HE JUST SAID HE DIDN'T REMEMBER IF
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M READING FROM PAGE 26,
r
1
1262
,J
,
I
I
1 LINES 11 THROUGH 17. ACTUALLY, I'M GOING TO START AT

2 LINES 9 THROUGH 17. 1
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION: HOW MUCH OF l
5 SMOKEY COULD YOU SEE OVER THIS HILL?
6 "ANSWER: WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
l
7
8
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
SURE.
WHOSE?
DID YOU SEE HIS ENTIRE BODY?
l
9 "QUESTION: SPEEDY'S. l
10 "ANSWER: NO. I JUST SAW LIKE FROM HIS NECK
11 UP. 1
12 "QUESTION: AND COULD YOU SEE SMOKEY?
13 "ANSWER: NO." l
14
15
THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID AT THE PRIOR HEARING,
RIGHT, ANDRES?
l
16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN?
THE COURT HAS A QUESTION OF
l
18 CLARIFICATION, AND I MAY HAVE MISHEARD YOU. l
19 WHEN YOU INITIALLY READ IT, WAS THE FIRST
20 QUESTION, "HOW MUCH OF SMOKEY YOU COULD SEE OVER THE l
21 HILL?"
22 THE WITNESS: YES, THAT WAS CORRECT.
l
23
24 SPEEDY'S.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THEN IT CHANGED TO
l
25 THE COURT: THANK YOU. I WANTED TO BE SURE l
26 THAT WAS TRUE. ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I CAN READ IT AGAIN IF YOU l
28 WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY.
l
,
r 1263
r 1 THE COURT: PLEASE.
r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION: HOW MUCH OF
r 3
4
SMOKEY COULD YOU SEE OVER THIS HILL?
"ANSWER: WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
r 5
6
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
SURE.
WHOSE?
DID YOU SEE HIS ENTIRE BODY?
r 7
8
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
SPEEDY'S.
NO. I JUST SAW LIKE FROM HIS NECK
r 9
10
UP.
"QUESTION: AND COULD YOU SEE SMOKEY?
r 11 "ANSWER: NO."
r 12
13
I'M GOING TO GO TO PAGE 99 OF THE TRIAL
TRANSCRIPT FROM THE PRIOR HEARING. THIS IS GOING TO BE,
r 14
15
I THINK, LINES 17 THROUGH 19.
"QUESTION: WHEN YOU SAW THE SHOTS FIRED, THEN,
r 16
17
ALL YOU SAW WAS SPEEDY'S HEAD?
"ANSWER: YEAH, THROUGH THE HILL."
r 18 I'LL READ ON A LITTLE FURTHER.
r 19 "QUESTION: DID YOU SEE, HOLDING MY RIGHT HAND

20 AT MY COLLAR LINE, FROM HERE DOWN?
r 21
22
"YES.
"YOU SAW THAT?
r 23
24
"YES.
"QUESTION: YOU COULD SEE THAT?
r 25 "ANSWER: YES."
r 26
27
Q. ANDRES, WOULD YOU STOP ME IF I'M CONFUSING YOU,
r 28 BUT WOULD YOU AGREE THAT YOUR TESTIMONY HAS BEEN
r
1264
l
~
J
1 INCONSISTENT IN PRIOR HEARINGS? ,.,

3 Q. YOU'VE SAID THINGS THAT ONE THING CAN'T BE TRUE

~I
4 WHILE THE OTHER IS TRUE. J
5 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. ~

i
J
6 THE COURT: REPHRASE, PLEASE.

8 Q. HAVE YOU SAID THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN -- I'M
9 TRYING TO THINK OF AN EASY WAY TO SAY THIS. l
10 HAVE YOU SAID THINGS THAT YOU SAW THAT YOU
11 DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE?
12 A. THAT I SAW THAT I ACTUALLY DIDN'T SEE?
13 Q. DID YOU SEE THINGS -- DID YOU SAY THINGS THAT l
14
15
YOU SAW THAT YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
l
16 THE WITNESS: YOU JUST ASKED ME IF I SAW
l
17 SOMETHING THAT I DIDN'T SEE, AND THAT'S CONFUSING ME.
19 Q. OKAY. LET ME REPHRASE IT.
20 IN PRIOR HEARINGS HAVE YOU SAID THAT YOU SAW l
21 THINGS THAT YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE IN REAL LIFE?
22 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
l
23
24
DO YOU UNDERSTAND, SIR?
LET'S SEE.
l
25 THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T GET IT. l
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. I'M GOING TO GO TO l
28 PAGE 109, LINES 11 AND 12 -- NO. I'M SORRY. OKAY,
l
l
r 1265
r 1 YEAH. PAGE 109, I THINK IT'S 11 THROUGH 20.
r 2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SLOWLY, PLEASE.
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION: ANDRES, I'M
GOING TO TAKE YOU BACK TO THE ACTUAL SHOOTING IN THIS
r 5
6
CASE, YOUR VIEW OF THE SHOOTING."
THE COURT: SLOWLY.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "WHEN YOU WERE TAKING A PISS
BY THE BUSHES AND YOU TURNED AROUND, TELL ME WHAT YOU
r 9 SAW.
r 10
11
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
I SAW SPEEDY'S HEAD.
YOU SAW SPEEDY'S HEAD. DID YOU SEE
r 12
13
HIS ARM, HIS RIGHT ARM?
"ANSWER: NO.
r 14
15
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER: NO.
HOW ABOUT HIS LEFT ARM?
r 16
17
"QUESTION: COULD YOU SEE FROM HERE DOWN?
MY HAND IS AT THE KNOT IN MY TIE. COULD YOU SEE FROM
AND
r 18 HERE DOWN?
r 19
20
"ANSWER :
"QUESTION:
N0 .
DID YOU SEE A GUN?
r 21
22
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
A GUN?
DID YOU SEE A GUN?
r 23
24
"ANSWER:
NO."
r 25 Q. WHAT I'M ASKING YOU, ANDRES, IS HAVING
r 26
27
TESTIFIED TO THAT, WHAT I JUST READ TO YOU, DID THE FACT
THAT YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU COULDN'T SEE FROM THE COLLAR
r 28 DOWN -- THAT CAN'T BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU
r
, J
1266
l
1 SAYING TODAY THAT YOU SAW HIS ENTIRE BODY.
2 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. l
5 Q. WOULD YOU AGREE?
6 A. CAN YOU REPEAT IT?
1
7
8
Q. TODAY ON DIRECT EXAMINATION YOU TESTIFIED THAT
YOU SAW THE SHOOTER'S ENTIRE BODY, RIGHT?
l
9 A. RIGHT. l
10 Q. AT THE PRIOR HEARING ABOUT FIVE MONTHS AGO, YOU
11 TESTIFIED THAT WHEN YOU LOOKED UP, YOU COULDN'T SEE FROM 1
12 THE KNOT OF HIS TIE DOWN, CORRECT?
13 A. I'M NOT REALLY SURE. l
14
15
Q.
A.
DID YOU LISTEN TO WHAT I READ YOU, ANDRES?
YEAH, BUT --
1
16
17
Q. DO YOU WANT ME TO READ IT AGAIN?
THE COURT: THE FIRST QUESTION IS: DO YOU
l
18 REMEMBER SAYING WHAT HE READ TO YOU? DID YOU SAY THAT, l
19 OR DO YOU NOT REMEMBER, OR DID YOU NOT SAY IT?
20 THE WITNESS: DID I SAY WHAT? l
21 THE COURT: THE STUFF THAT HE READ TO YOU.
22 DID YOU SAY THAT, DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING IT, OR
l
23
24
DID YOU NOT SAY IT?
THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING IT.
l
25 THE COURT: THEN THE TRANSCRIPT SPEAKS FOR l
26 ITSELF. COUNSEL ARE FREE TO ARGUE ITS USE COMPARED TO
27 HIS TESTIMONY, AND WE MOVE ON. l
l
,
r 1267
r 2 Q. ON DIRECT EXAMINATION TODAY, YOU TESTIFIED,
r
3 ANDRES, THAT -- YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU TURNED AROUND AND
4 THE SHOOTER WAS ALREADY SHOOTING, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A. CORRECT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GOING TO THE TRANSCRIPT FROM
r 9
10
THE HEARING ON APRIL 1ST, YOUR HONOR.
r 11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS IS, AGAIN, A COURT
r 12
13
HEARING, SO IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A TRANSCRIPT THAT THE
JURY HAS. IT'S GOING TO BE PRELIMINARY HEARING
r 14
15
TRANSCRIPT PAGE 94, LINES 3 THROUGH 9.
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
PULL THE GUN FROM?
"QUESTION: WHAT DID SPEEDY
r 18 "ANSWER: FROM HIS -- FROM HIS RIGHT HERE.
r 19
20
FROM HIS
"QUESTION: MAYBE YOU CAN STAND UP AND SHOW US.
r 21
22
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
FROM RIGHT HERE, FROM HIS BELT.
YOU'RE INDICATING THE RIGHT FRONT
r 23
24
SIDE OF HIS HIP?
"ANSWER: YEAH."
r 26
27
Q. IN THAT PRIOR HEARING, ANDRES, YOU WERE TALKING
ABOUT SEEING THE SHOOTER PULL A GUN FROM HIS HIP, RIGHT?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
1268
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU SAID THAT, YOU

1
1
2 ACTUALLY STOOD UP AND YOU MADE THE MOTION WITH YOUR HAND l
3 AND SHOWED THE COURT?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. WHEN YOU TESTIFIED TODAY, NOW, YOU DIDN'T SEE
6 THAT, RIGHT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
OKAY. SO AT THE TIME THAT YOU SAID THAT, WERE
l
9 YOU TELLING THE TRUTH? l
11 THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. l
12 THE WITNESS: IT WAS ONE TIME WHEN I GOT
13 CONFUSED ON THE LAST COURT DAY THAT I CAME. THAT'S WHAT l
14 I REMEMBERED, WAS WHEN I'M CONFUSED.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
YOU WERE CONFUSED THEN OR --
YES.
l
18 Q. -- WERE YOU CONFUSED NOW? l
19 A. NO. FROM THE LAST COURT I CAME.
20 Q. OKAY. AND THAT QUESTION CONFUSED YOU? l
21 A. YES, THE LAST TIME.
22 Q. ANDRES, YOU ACTUALLY STOOD UP AND YOU SHOWED
l
23
24
THE COURT BY USING HAND GESTURES WHAT YOU SAW AT THAT
POINT, RIGHT?
l
25 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE l
26 TESTIMONY. THAT WOULD BE THE PRELIM, NOT THE LAST
27 HEARING WHEN THIS HAPPENED. l
28 THE COURT: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PRELIM.
l
,
r 1269
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. WITHDRAWN. THIS IS A
r 2 LOT OF HEARINGS, SO I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ALSO.
r
4 Q. AT THE HEARING -- NOT THE LAST ONE, BUT TWO

5 HEARINGS AGO YOU SAID YOU WERE CONFUSED AND THAT'S
r 6 WHY YOU SAID WHAT YOU SAID, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
BUT YOU ACTUALLY STOOD UP IN THE WITNESS STAND
r 9
10
AND YOU MADE A HAND GESTURE AND SHOWED THE COURT WHAT
YOU SAW WITH YOUR HAND, RIGHT?
r 11 A. RIGHT.
r 12
13
Q. IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU WERE SAYING THAT
BECAUSE YOU WERE CONFUSED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
IT'S NOT BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T TELLING THE TRUTH
r 16
17
AT THAT HEARING?
r 18
19
Q.
CONFUSED?
DIDN'T YOU SAY YOU SAID THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE
r 20 A. YEAH, I WAS CONFUSED.
21 Q. ISN'T IT BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T TELLING THE TRUTH

r 22 AT THAT HEARING?
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 25 THE WITNESS: IT'S RIGHT.
r 27 Q. WHICH ONE IS RIGHT?
28 A. WHAT YOU JUST ASKED ME RIGHT NOW, CAN YOU

r
r
~
1270
, J
1
1 REPEAT IT?
2 Q. THE REASON THAT YOU SAID THAT WASN'T BECAUSE l
3 YOU WERE CONFUSED, ANDRES, IT WAS BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T
4 TELLING THE TRUTH AT THE HEARING, RIGHT? 1
5 A. RIGHT.
6 Q. OKAY. SO YOU DIDN'T TELL THE TRUTH AT A PRIOR
l
7
8
HEARING WHEN YOU SWORE THAT YOU WOULD, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
l
9 Q. OKAY. THAT'S NOT THE ONLY TIME THAT'S HAPPENED
l
10 IN THIS CASE, RIGHT?
11 A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER. l
12 Q. ANDRES, LET'S TALK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT THE
13 CIRCUMSTANCES THAT GOT YOU INVOLVED IN THIS CASE IN THE l
14 FIRST PLACE. OKAY?
15 THE COURT: CAN WE SAY THAT AGAIN, PLEASE.
l
16
17
Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW YOU GOT HERE. DO YOU
l
18 UNDERSTAND? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. BACK IN 2009, OR WHAT WOULD BE ABOUT TWO YEARS l
21 AGO, YOU WERE ARRESTED FOR GRAFFITI, RIGHT?
22 A. RIGHT.
l
23
24
Q. WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED, THE DETECTIVES DROVE
YOU AROUND TOWN AND ASKED YOU TO POINT OUT LITTLE PIECES
l
25 OF GRAFFITI THAT YOU WERE DRAWING, RIGHT?
l
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. THE DETECTIVES OR POLICE OFFICERS -- WELL, l
28 FIRST, DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DETECTIVE
l
1
r 1271
r 1 AND JUST A POLICE OFFICER OR A PATROLMAN?
r 2 A. YES.
3 Q. OKAY. THE PEOPLE WHO ARRESTED YOU FOR

r 4 GRAFFITI, THEY WERE POLICE OFFICERS OR PATROLMEN,
5 RIGHT?
r 6 A. RIGHT.
r 7
8
Q. AS OPPOSED TO THIS GENTLEMAN STANDING IN FRONT
OF ME WHO IS A DETECTIVE, RIGHT?
r 9 A. RIGHT.
r 10
11
12
Q. THEY ARRESTED YOU AND BROUGHT YOU TO JAIL.
YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A. YES.
DO
r 13 Q. THEY BROUGHT YOU TO THE JAIL IN DOWNTOWN
r 14
15
SAN DIEGO THAT'S CLOSE TO THE COURTHOUSE, RIGHT?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT WOULD
r 16
17
BE IMPOSSIBLE.
THE COURT: WELL, WASN'T HE IN JUVENILE?
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOU KNOW WHAT? I'M GOING TO
r 19
20
WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.
MR. TROCHA IS RIGHT.
r 21
22
Q. THEY BROUGHT YOU TO THE POLICE STATION, NOT THE
JAIL, THE POLICE STATION DOWNTOWN; IS THAT RIGHT?
r 23
24
A. RIGHT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO THAT WAS THE MISTAKE.
r 25
26
THE COURT:
OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 27 Q. WHEN YOU WERE AT THE POLICE STATION, YOU WERE
28 TALKED TO BY NOT ONLY THE PATROLMEN, BUT A DETECTIVE,

r
r
1272
l
~l
!
j
1 RIGHT?
2 A. RIGHT. 1
3 Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS THAT CONVERSATION ~
4 RECORDED? J
5 A. WHAT?
6 Q. WAS THAT CONVERSATION RECORDED WHEN YOU TALKED
l
7 TO THE DETECTIVE, IF YOU KNOW? DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
l
8
9
BY RECORDED?
A. YEAH, RECORDED LIKE RECORDED, YEAH. NO, I
, I
1
10 DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS RECORDED.

11 Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD IT RECORDED -- HAVE l
12 YOU EVER HEARD IT PLAYED BACK TO YOU?
13 A. WHAT, THE -- l
14
15
Q. THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD IN THE POLICE STATION
DOWNTOWN WITH THE DETECTIVE, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THAT
l
16 PLAYED BACK TO YOU?
l
18 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. l
19 DURING THAT CONVERSATION, A DETECTIVE TOLD YOU
20 THAT YOU NEEDED TO HELP HIM OUT WITH A CASE OR HE WAS l
21 GOING TO GIVE YOU MORE TIME IN JAIL, CORRECT?
22 A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER THAT HE TOLD ME.
l
23
24
Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER A DETECTIVE SAYING THAT YOU
NEEDED TO HELP YOURSELF; HE TOLD YOU THAT YOU KNEW
l
25 EVERYTHING AND THAT IF YOU DIDN'T TELL HIM, THAT THEY l
26 WERE GOING TO GIVE YOU LONGER TIME?
27 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN l
28 EVIDENCE.
l
,
r 1273
r 1 THE COURT: WELL, IS THIS REPORTED SOMEWHERE SO
r 2
3
THAT HE HAS A GOOD-FAITH BASIS FOR ASKING?
MR. TROCHA: THERE IS NO REPORT.
r
l 4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, IF THE ANSWER IS
r 5
6
NO, I HAVE PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS TO PLAY THAT
WILL BE RIGHT ON POINT.
r 7
8 WHOM?
THE COURT: PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS OF
r 9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. ANDRES.
r 10
11
THE COURT: ON THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT?
r 12
13
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
PEOPLE DISAGREE?
IN TERMS OF LAYING A FOUNDATION,
r 14
15
IT NEEDS TO BE DONE FIRST.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. REASK.
r 16
17
Q. THE DETECTIVES TOLD YOU THAT THEY WERE -- YOU
r 18 NEEDED TO HELP YOURSELF SO YOU WOULDN'T GET IN MORE
r
19 TROUBLE, RIGHT?
20 A. WELL, THAT I REMEMBER, NO.
r 21
22
Q. THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT
OF JAIL THAT YOU SHOULD TELL THEM SOMETHING?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
READING FROM THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT -- THE PRIOR
r 25 HEARING TRANSCRIPT, OCTOBER 7, 2010, PAGE 42:
r 26
27
"QUESTION: HOW DID YOU GET TO TALK TO
DETECTIVES INVOLVING THIS CASE?
r 28 "ANSWER: BECAUSE I GOT CAUGHT IN OCEAN VIEW
r
l
1274
, j
J
1 PARK WRITING ON THE WALLS, AND THEY ARRESTED ME AND THEY

2 TOOK ME TO DOWNTOWN, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. AND THE 1
3 DETECTIVE, HE TALKED TO ME. HE TOLD ME IF I DON'T TELL
4 THEM NOTHING WHAT HAPPENED, HE WAS GOING TO KEEP ME
1 J
5 THERE ALL DAY AND HE WAS GOING TO GIVE ME MORE TIME.

6 AND, WELL, HE --WELL, THAT'S ABOUT IT."
l
7
8 A.
DO YOU REMEMBER MAKING THAT STATEMENT, ANDRES?
I REMEMBER THAT, BUT NOT ABOUT -- ABOUT WHAT
l
l
9
10
11
12
CASE?
MURDER.
Q.
HE TOLD ME ABOUT MY GRAFFITI, NOT ABOUT THE
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
OKAY. GOING TO LINES 25 --
THE COURT: PAGE?
,
14 Q. ON THE SAME PAGE, 42, AND WE'RE GOING TO GO ON
15 TO THE NEXT PAGE AND READ LINES 1 THROUGH 3.
l
16
17 THIS CASE?
"QUESTION: WHY DID YOU TELL HIM ANYTHING ABOUT
l
18 "ANSWER: WHY? l
19 "QUESTION: YEAH.
20 "ANSWER: BECAUSE HE TOLD ME THAT I KNEW l
21 EVERYTHING, AND THAT IF I DIDN'T TELL THEM NOTHING THAT
22 HE WAS GOING TO GIVE ME LONGER TIME, AND HE WAS GOING TO
l
23
24
GET ME OUT OF TROUBLE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE HE WAS
TELLING ME."
l
25 DO YOU REMEMBER BEING ASKED THAT, ANDRES, AND l
26 GIVING THAT ANSWER?
27 A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER. l
28 Q. YOU DO NOT REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
l
,
r 1275
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. GOING TO PAGE 44, WHAT WOULD BE LINE 12 THROUGH
r
3 15 I'LL START ON PAGE 11, YOUR HONOR.
4 "QUESTION: HOW DID THEY FORCE YOU?
r 5
6 TOLD ME,
"ANSWER: THEY JUST STARTED TALKING TO ME AND
'OH, YEAH, YOU'RE GOING TO DO LESS TIME IF YOU
r 7
8
TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.'"
MR. TROCHA: I'M GOING TO OBJECT THAT IT'S OUT
r 9 OF CONTEXT WITHOUT READING AT LEAST EIGHT LINES BEFORE
r 10
11
THAT QUESTION.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS THE CONTEXT?
r 12
13
MR. TROCHA: THAT ANDRES WAS FORCED TO TELL
THEM THINGS HE DIDN'T WANT TO SAY BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT
r 14
15
TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK UP EIGHT LINES,
r 16
17
PLEASE. WHAT LINE WOULD YOU HAVE IT START?
MR. TROCHA: I WOULD SAY START AT LINE 3 --
r 18 WELL, EXCUSE ME. START AT LINE 1.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
ALL RIGHT. THIS IS PAGE --
TOP OF THE PAGE.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
PAGE 10?
I HAVE PAGE 1344. I'M ASSUMING
r 23
24
COUNSEL'S PAGE IS 44.
THE COURT: 1344.
r 25
26
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: LINE 1.
THAT'S FINE.
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WHERE AM I TO STOP, YOUR
r 28 HONOR?
r
1
1276
, !
1 MR. TROCHA: I DON'T KNOW WHERE COUNSEL WAS
2
3
4
GOING TO STOP, BUT THE BEGINNING IS WHAT GIVES IT
CONTEXT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "QUESTION: WERE THE
, j
5 DETECTIVES WHO TALKED TO YOU MEAN TO YOU?

6 "ANSWER: WELL, NOT REALLY.
l
7
8
"QUESTION:
DIDN'T WANT TO SAY?
DID THEY MAKE YOU SAY THINGS YOU
l
9 "ANSWER: SOME THINGS. l
10 "QUESTION: WHAT THINGS DID YOU NOT WANT TO
11 TELL THEM THAT THEY MADE YOU SAY? l
12 "ANSWER: WELL, THEY FORCED ME TO SAY THE WORDS
13 THAT BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO TELL THEM NOTHING, THEY l
14
15
FORCED ME. THEY TOLD ME THAT.
"QUESTION: HOW DID THEY FORCE YOU?
l
16 "ANSWER: THEY JUST STARTED TALKING TO ME AND
l
17 TOLD ME, 'OH, YEAH, YOU'RE GOING TO DO LESS TIME IF YOU
18 TELL US WHAT HAPPENED. IT'S GOING TO BE ALL GOOD. l
19 YOU'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO BE GOOD AND BE STRONG."
20 I CAN STOP THERE. l
l
23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT, ANDRES?
NO.
l
25 Q. YOU -- AT THE LAST HEARING ON THIS CASE, YOU l
26 WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. TROCHA, CORRECT? OUTSIDE OF THE
27 COURT. l
28 A. WHEN?
l
,
r 1277
r 1 Q. THE LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED IN THIS CASE, YOU
r 2 WERE INTERVIEWED OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM BY MR. TROCHA AND
r
3 AN INVESTIGATOR, RIGHT?
4 A. WHO WAS THAT?
5 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED ON

r 6 THIS CASE, AT THE LUNCH HOUR YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA AND ANOTHER INVESTIGATOR?
THE COURT: NOT TODAY. THE LAST TIME YOU CAME
r 9
10
HERE LAST YEAR.
THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T REMEMBER.
12 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THAT INTERVIEW?

r 13 A. NO.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
BRIEF SIDEBAR?
YOUR HONOR, CAN I HAVE A
r 16
17
THE COURT: SURE.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S PUT THE SIDEBAR
r 18 RULE IN EFFECT. DO FEEL FREE TO STAND AND STRETCH AND
19 TALK. WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD FOR JUST A MOMENT.

r 20 ANDRES, JUST SIT THERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
r 21
22
{SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.)
r 23
24
RECORD.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT
r 25
26
WE'RE DEALING WITH ARE THESE, AND THEY ARISE IN LOTS OF
TRIALS: YOU'RE GOING TO BE GIVEN RULES IN THE JURY
r 27 INSTRUCTIONS THAT RESOLUTION OF CONFLICTS IN THE
28 EVIDENCE ARE FOR YOU TO MAKE.

r
r
1278
l
1 IF A WITNESS'S STATEMENTS CONFLICT WITH
l
2 STATEMENTS THAT HE'S GIVEN ON DIFFERENT DAYS, THAT IS l
3 ALL EVIDENCE FOR YOU TO CONSIDER. IF A WITNESS'S
4 TESTIMONY DIFFERS FROM THAT OF OTHER WITNESSES, THAT'S 1 J
5 FOR YOU TO CONSIDER, AND IT'S UP TO YOU TO DETERMINE THE

6 WEIGHT TO GIVE TO ANYTHING THAT YOU HEAR.
l
7
8
NOW, AS YOU HAVE PROBABLY EVEN SEEN IN THIS
COURTROOM, BECAUSE IT IS INEVITABLE IN THIS PROCESS,
l
9 SOMETIMES A WITNESS WILL SAY SOMETHING AT ONE POINT, AND
l
10 THEN A FEW LINES LATER OR IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH OR THE
11 NEXT SERIES OF QUESTIONS THEY WILL SAY SOMETHING l
12 DIFFERENT OR SOMETHING THAT CLARIFIES AND EXPLAINS.
13 SO WE HAVE TWO WAYS WE CAN APPROACH THIS. ONE l
14
15
WAY IS I CAN ALLOW BOTH COUNSEL TO EACH ONE ASK THIS
GENTLEMAN ABOUT A PARTICULAR LINE OR LINES, AND IF IT'S
l
16
17
CONSISTENT OR INCONSISTENT, YOU'LL BE THE JUDGES OF WHAT
WEIGHT TO GIVE TO IT, AND THEN THE OTHER COUNSEL WOULD
1
18 HAVE TO COME BACK AND ASK ABOUT THE FURTHER LINES THAT l
19 MIGHT EXPLAIN IT.
20 RATHER THAN DOING IT THAT WAY, I'M GOING TO l
21 ALLOW THE WHOLE STATEMENT TO BE PLAYED FOR YOU AT
22 CHAPTER AND VERSE, AND THEN COUNSEL CAN TALK ABOUT
l
23
24
CONSISTENCES OR INCONSISTENCIES AFTER HEARING THE WHOLE
STATEMENT.
1
25 NOW, THE STATEMENT TO WHICH I'M REFERRING IS l
26 THE ONE THAT MR. SPEREDELOZZI WAS ASKING ANDRES ABOUT.
27 IT IS REPRESENTED BY THE SECOND TRANSCRIPT THAT YOU WERE l
28 GIVEN, WHICH I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A LETTER ON.
l
l
r 1279
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, WE DO, YOUR HONOR.
r 2 SORRY TO INTERRUPT. IT'S EXHIBIT PP IS THE TRANSCRIPT,
r
3 AND THE AUDIO IS --
4 THE COURT: YOU MARKED IT AS SUCH, BUT THE
r 5
6
JURORS, I DON'T THINK, HAD PP WRITTEN ON THE TRANSCRIPT.
IT'S THE ONE THAT SAYS "ANDRES LOPEZ, 10/7/10" ON IT.
r 7
8
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO WRITE DOUBLE CAPITAL P ON THAT.
THE AUDIO IS WHAT?
AND
r 9 {DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT QQ, AUDIOTAPED INTERVIEW
r 10
11
OF ANDRES L., WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: EXHIBIT QQ.
r 12
13
THE COURT: FOR THE CLERK, QQ IS THE AUDIO THAT
CORRESPONDS WITH TRANSCRIPT PP. SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO
r 14
15
DO RIGHT NOW IS PLAY IN ITS ENTIRETY THE AUDIO PORTION
THAT IS REPRESENTED BY EXHIBIT PP.
r 16
17
AGAIN, IT IS THE AUDIO THAT IS THE EVIDENCE.
AGAIN, THE COURT REPORTER WON'T BE REPORTING WHAT'S
r 18 BEING SAID, AND THEN WE'LL TAKE THE EXAMINATION FROM
r 19
20
THERE.
PERHAPS AN OVERLY LONG-WINDED EXPLANATION, BUT
r 21
22
I WANTED TO PUT THIS IN CONTEXT FOR YOU AS TO WHAT IS
HAPPENING, AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED
r 23
24
CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHEN YOU ARE PREPARED TO DO
r 25
26
SO, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO PLAY EXHIBIT QQ, AND WE'LL
FOLLOW ON PP.
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 28 {AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED; NOT REPORTED.)
r
1 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE ARE BACK ON THE
1280
,
1
J
2 RECORD. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT WE HAVE LISTENED l

3 TO THE AUDIO EXHIBIT MARKED DEFENSE QQ, AS REPRESENTED
4 BY THE TRANSCRIPT EXHIBIT PP. WE HAVE LISTENED TO IT IN l
5 ITS ENTIRETY.
l
6
7
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WOULD YOU PREFER TO CONTINUE
YOUR EXAMINATION NOW OR RECESS UNTIL THE MORNING? ,J
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I CAN DO 10 MINUTES, IF IT'S
9 ALL RIGHT. l
10 THE COURT: YOUR CALL. GO AHEAD.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU. l
13 Q. ANDRES, HAVING LISTENED TO THAT, DO YOU NOW l
14
15
REMEMBER GIVING THAT STATEMENT TO MR. TROCHA?
A. YES.
l
16
17
Q. OKAY.
TESTIFIED IN COURT?
THAT HAPPENED THE LAST TIME YOU
l
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. DO YOU HAVE THE TRANSCRIPT IN FRONT OF YOU?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ON PAGE 3, LINE 18, THE
22 QUESTION IS AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT --
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA WAS ASKING YOU WHY YOU MADE STUFF UP.
ASKED YOU, "WHEN YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT YOU DID, WHY
HE
l
25 DID YOU TELL US THAT?" l
26 YOUR ANSWER IS, "BECAUSE THE DETECTIVE TOLD ME
27 TO SAY THAT," RIGHT? l
28 THE COURT: IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID, SIR?
l
1
r 1281
r 3
4
Q. THERE WAS -- THE INTERVIEW THAT WE LISTENED TO,
NOT THIS ONE, BUT EARLIER OVER THE MORNING AND THEN IT
5 WENT INTO THE AFTERNOON -- DO YOU REMEMBER THAT
r 6 INTERVIEW WE LISTENED TO, ANDRES?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. THAT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU
r 9
10
TALKED TO THE POLICE ABOUT THIS CASE, CORRECT?
A. WHAT?
r 11 Q. THAT INTERVIEW THAT WE LISTENED TO WITH
12 DETECTIVE LAMBERT, THAT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU

r 13 TALKED TO THE POLICE ABOUT THIS CASE, RIGHT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YOU ACTUALLY TALKED TO THEM THE DAY BEFORE,
r 16
17
RIGHT?
A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT ALL OVER?
r 18 Q. SURE, YEAH, AND THANK YOU. PLEASE LET ME KNOW
r 19
20
IF YOU'RE CONFUSED AND WE'LL START OVER.
THE INTERVIEW THAT WE LISTENED TO THIS MORNING
r 21
22
AND THE FIRST THING THIS AFTERNOON, THAT INTERVIEW WAS
WITH DETECTIVE LAMBERT AND IT WAS AT JUVENILE HALL,
r 23
24
RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 25 Q. THE FIRST TIME YOU SPOKE TO THE POLICE WAS THE
26 DAY BEFORE THAT INTERVIEW, CORRECT?
r 27 A. CORRECT.
r 28 Q. AND THAT WAS AT THE DOWNTOWN POLICE STATION
r
l
1282
,
1
2
3
HERE IN SAN DIEGO, RIGHT?
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IN YOUR INTERVIEW
,
~
4 WITH MR. TROCHA THAT THE POLICE DETECTIVES TOLD YOU TO 1
5 SAY STUFF TO HELP YOU GET OUT OF JAIL, YOU'RE TALKING

6 ABOUT THE FIRST INTERVIEW DOWNTOWN, RIGHT?
l
A. WHAT WAS THAT?
l
,
7
8 Q. WHEN YOU STATED THAT THE POLICE DETECTIVES WERE

9 TELLING YOU TO COME INTO COURT AND SAY THINGS, YOU WERE
10 TALKING ABOUT THE INTERVIEW YOU HAD WITH THEM IN
11 DOWNTOWN SAN DIEGO, NOT THE INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE l
12 LAMBERT AT JUVENILE HALL; AM I RIGHT?
13 A. RIGHT. l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
YOUR HONOR.
OKAY. WE CAN STOP THERE,
1
16
17
THE COURT: ANDRES, THANK YOU. I'LL ASK YOU TO
STEP DOWN, AND WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK TOMORROW MORNING.
l
18 YOU CAN LEAVE WITH MR. CAMPOS, IF YOU WOULD LIKE. I l
19 NEED TO TALK TO THE JURY FOR JUST A FEW MINUTES. YOU
20 ARE FREE TO LEAVE, IF YOU WOULD LIKE, WITH MR. CAMPOS. 1
21 MR. CAMPOS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
22 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THE WITNESS HAS LEFT
l
23
24
THE COURTROOM.
l
25 CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER. I l
26 KNOW YOU ARE ABSORBING A GREAT DEAL OF DATA AND NOT
27 NECESSARILY HAVING THE ENTIRE FRAMEWORK WITHIN WHICH TO 1
28 CONSIDER IT. YOU WILL GET THAT FRAMEWORK WHEN YOU HEAR
1
,
r 1283
r 1 THE INSTRUCTIONS AND HEAR THE ARGUMENTS OF COUNSEL.
r 2 IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU CONTINUE TO PAY
r 3
4
ATTENTION TO AS MUCH AS YOU CAN, AND I AM GRATIFIED BY
THE ATTENTION I SEE FROM ALL OF YOU.
5 IN TERMS OF SCHEDULING, WE WILL BE IN SESSION
r 6 TOMORROW. TODAY IS THURSDAY. WE WILL BE IN SESSION
r 7
8
TOMORROW. HOWEVER, FRIDAY IS THE DAY THAT I NORMALLY
HAVE OTHER MATTERS SCHEDULED. I HAVE TWO SENTENCING
r 9
10
PROCEEDINGS SET AT 9:00. NEITHER ONE OF THEM INVOLVES
MR. DOMINGUEZ OR ANYBODY IN THIS CASE. THEY ARE FROM
r 11 OTHER CASES THAT I HANDLED.
r 12
13
WE HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH COUNSEL AND ASKED
THEM TO BE PRESENT ON TIME, AND I'M TOLD THAT ONE OF
r 14
15
THEM IS GOING TO BE POSTPONED. THAT MEANS THAT I AM
OPTIMISTIC THAT WE WILL BE READY TO BEGIN THIS CASE AT
r 16
17
9:45.
SO I'M GOING TO ASK THAT ALL OF YOU PLAN ON
r 18 RETURNING TO THIS COURTROOM AT 9:45 TOMORROW MORNING,
r 19
20
AND WE'LL CONTINUE WITH THE EXAMINATION OF ANDRES.
GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT OF A HEADS UP, I'VE ALSO GOT A
TO
r 21
22
SENTENCING PROCEEDING AT 1:30, AND I'M CONTEMPLATING IT
WILL START AT 1:45 IN THE AFTERNOON, BUT THINGS COULD
r 23
24
CHANGE BETWEEN NOW AND THEN AND THAT CASE COULD BE
POSTPONED AS WELL.
r 25 ON BEHALF OF BOTH SIDES AND THE COURT, I

26 NEEDLESSLY REMIND YOU HOW IMPORTANT THIS WORK IS THAT
r 27 YOU ARE DOING, AND I ASK THAT YOU REMEMBER THAT IT IS
r 28 YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY
r
1284
l
l
1 OTHER PERSON ON ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL,
l
2
3
4
OR TO FORM OR EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE
IS FINALLY SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION.
PLEASE LEAVE NOTEBOOKS, PENS AND TRANSCRIPTS ON
,
J
5 THE CHAIRS. WE'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:45, AND

6 THANK YOU.
l
7
8
l
9 THE COURT: ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM. l
10 ADDRESSING COUNSEL, JUST CLOSE YOUR MATERIALS AND TRY TO
11 PUSH THEM TO THE FRONT OF COUNSEL TABLE. AS I SAY, ONE l
12 SENTENCING PROCEEDING IS GOING TO BE CONTINUED TOMORROW;
13 THE OTHER ONE IS A FAIRLY, I THINK, NONCONTROVERSIAL l
14
15
THING.
I'M CONFIDENT, AND I WILL MAKE SURE, THAT NO
l
16 COUNSEL DISTURBS OR LOOKS AT ANY OF YOUR MATERIALS, BUT
l
17 IF YOU WOULD AT LEAST PUSH YOUR MATERIALS TO THE FRONT
18 OF COUNSEL TABLE SO THEY HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF WORKING l
19 SPACE, THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE SOME l
21 BINDERS UNDER THE DESK. IS THAT FINE?
22 THE COURT: ABSOLUTELY. AND IF YOU NEED
l
23
24
ANOTHER PLACE TO PUT ANYTHING HERE IN THE COURTROOM,
JUST FIND A PLACE AND PUT IT SO IT'S IDENTIFIED AS YOUR
l
25 MATERIALS SO THAT IT WON'T BE DISTURBED. l
26 MY THANKS TO BOTH COUNSEL, AND WE'LL SEE YOU
27 ALL TOMORROW MORNING. OUR GOAL WILL BE 9:45, AND I'M l
28 ASKING IF THE SHERIFFS HAVE PERSONNEL PERMITTING THAT WE
l
l
r 1285
r 1 CAN HAVE BOTH OF THE IN-CUSTODY DEFENDANTS HERE AT THE
r 2
3
SAME TIME AT 9:00 SO WE CAN DO THE CONTINUANCE ON ONE
AND DO THE SENTENCING PROCEEDING ON THE OTHER.
r 4 THAT MAY OR MAY NOT WORK OUT, BUT I THINK 9:45
r 5
6
IS A GOOD TARGET TIME.
MR. TROCHA: IS TOMORROW MORNING OR AFTERNOON
r 7
8
THE DAY WITH THE PRO PER?
THE COURT: THAT'S NEXT MONDAY, SO NOT TO WORRY
r 9
10
ABOUT THAT.
MR. TROCHA: OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 11 THE COURT: WE'RE IN RECESS, THEN.
r 12
13
FRIDAY, APRIL 8, 2011, AT 9:45A.M.)
r 14
15
Ill
Ill
rt 16 Ill
17 Ill
r 18 Ill
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25
26
Ill
Ill
r 27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
r

0 ss

r 1285, INCLUSIVE, CONTAIN A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT

r THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 2011.
r
r
r CSR NO. 6263
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
)
)
r
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. D060019
r vs.
)
)
) SUPERIOR COURT
NO. SCD230596
r
)
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT. )
) TRIAL
r
r
VOLUME 12
r APRIL 8, 2011
PAGES 1286 THROUGH 1351/1352
r APPEARANCES :
r FOR THE PLAINTIFF

AND RESPONDENT:
KAMALA D. HARRIS
ATTORNEY GENERAL
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r FOR THE DEFENDANT

AND APPELLANT:
IN PROPRIA PERSONA
r
r
r REPORTED BY: PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO .. 6263
r
r

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
r
)
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r ______________________________
DEFENDANT. )
)
)
APRIL 8, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: KRIST IAN P. TROCHA


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r
l
INDEX OF WITNESSES
r WITNESSES
PAGE
r ANDRES L.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1289

1340
1343
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS

r DEFENSE SS
DEFENSE W
LIST OF NAMES
DOCUMENT INDICATING ANDRES L. IS
1313
1317
r LITTLE DEAD MAN
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r 1286
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, APRIL 8, 2011; 10:09 AM
r 2
r
r 5
6
r 7
8
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
PRESENT, INCLUDING DETECTIVE LAMBERT AND MR. MALDONADO.
r 9 NO JURORS ARE PRESENT.

10 WHAT DO WE NEED TO DISCUSS BEFORE WE BRING THE
r 11 JURORS IN?
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: TWO ISSUES, YOUR HONOR.
WENT AND VISITED ONE OF THE WITNESSES WE OTP'D THIS
I
r 14
15
MORNING.
TESTIFY.
MARCO VELAZQUEZ INDICATED HE DOESN'T WANT TO
WHEN HE GETS HERE, HE'S GOING TO PLEAD THE
r 16
17
FIFTH AMENDMENT. IN LIEU OF THAT, I RECOMMEND WE
RELEASE HIM BACK TO THE CUSTODY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
r 18 CORRECTIONS.
19 THE COURT: IS HE UNDER ORDER TO PRODUCE BY THE
r 20 DEFENSE ONLY?
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES, I BELIEVE SO.
IS THAT CORRECT?
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
IT IS.
HE'S NOT A PEOPLE'S WITNESS TOO?
r 25
26
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO.
SO YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT YOU'RE
r 27 NOT GOING TO CALL HIM.
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YEAH, EXACTLY.
r
1287
l
l
1 THE COURT: OKAY. WE'LL HAVE THE RECORD
2 REFLECT THAT MR. MARCO VELAZQUEZ WAS PRODUCED HERE FROM l
3 STATE PRISON. THE OTP WILL BE CANCELLED, AND LET'S
4 INDICATE TO THE SHERIFFS, SO THERE IS NO l
5 MISUNDERSTANDING, THAT HE CAN BE RETURNED TO THE
6 DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS. THANK YOU.
1
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: GO AHEAD.
ONE MORE.
l
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE A WITNESS SUBPOENAED l
10 FOR TUESDAY MORNING. SHE HAS CARE ISSUES. SHE'S A
11 CARETAKER FOR HER ELDERLY PARENT, AND SHE REALLY HAS l
12 LIMITED TIME. SHE IS WILLING TO COME IN, BUT SHE WANTS
13 TO BE IN AND OUT SO THAT SHE CAN GET BACK AND TAKE CARE l
14
15
OF HER ELDERLY PARENT. AND THAT'S TUESDAY MORNING.
IF THE PROSECUTION IS DONE WITH THEIR CASE,
l
16
17
THEN IT WON'T BE A PROBLEM, I'LL CALL HER FIRST THING.
IF THEY'RE NOT DONE WITH DETECTIVE GASCA AT THAT TIME, I
l
18 WAS HOPING I COULD CALL HER OUT OF ORDER IN THE MIDDLE 1
19 OF DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY, HAVE HER TESTIFY, AND
20 GET HER SENT ON HER WAY. SHE'S A QUICK 20-MINUTE l
21 WITNESS.
22 THE COURT: PEOPLE HAVE ANY OBJECTION?
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO.
WE'LL PLAN ON IT.
l
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ALSO SHE WILL NEED A SPANISH l
26 INTERPRETER.
27 THE COURT: WHAT IS HER NAME, PLEASE? l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ANNA MARTINEZ.
l
l
r 1288
r 1
r
THE COURT: PLEASE REMIND US MONDAY NIGHT, BUT
2 LET'S NOTE TENTATIVELY ANNA MARTINEZ SCHEDULED FOR
r
3 TUESDAY MORNING, THE 12TH OF APRIL, 9:00, WITH A
4 SPANISH-SPEAKING INTERPRETER.
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THANK YOU.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA: JUST SCHEDULING FOR TODAY, WE
DON'T HAVE WITNESSES LINED UP FOR THIS AFTERNOON BASED
r 9
10
ON THE DEFENSE'S ESTIMATE ONCE ANDRES IS DONE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR SCHEDULING, I DON'T
r 11 THINK IT'S GOING TO BE TOO MUCH LONGER. WE MAY BE DONE
r 12
13
THIS MORNING.
THE COURT: IF WE'RE DONE THIS MORNING, WE'RE
r 14
15
DONE THIS MORNING. LET ME WEIGH ON THE OTHER END OF
THAT SPECTRUM AND SAY WE WILL FINISH WITH ANDRES TODAY
r 16
17
BEFORE 4:30, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, UNLESS HE'S NOT WITH
US RIGHT NOW. IS HE WITH US?
r 18 MR. TROCHA: HE IS.
r 19 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU ALL. MAY WE HAVE

20 THE JURORS.
r 22 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:}
r 23
24 BE SEATED.
THE COURT: MAY I INVITE COUNSEL AND PARTIES TO
r 25 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND GOOD
r 26
27
MORNING. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS HAVE
ENTERED THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL
r 28 PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED REMAIN IN THE COURTROOM. ANDRES IS
r
1289
l
l
1 ON THE WITNESS STAND.
2 GOOD MORNING TO YOU, ANDRES. YOU STILL HAVE TO l
3 TELL THE TRUTH; DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
6 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR
1
7
8
PATIENCE. I'M AWARE WE'RE GETTING UNDERWAY ABOUT A HALF
AN HOUR AFTER MY OPTIMISTIC ESTIMATE YESTERDAY. BECAUSE
l
9 YOU ALL HAVE BEEN HERE FOR THAT PERIOD OF TIME AND WERE l
10 WAITING AND NOT KNOWING WHEN WE WOULD, IN FACT, COME
11 INTO THE COURTROOM, PLEASE BE REMINDED THAT ANY TIME l
12 SOMEBODY NEEDS A RESTROOM BREAK, PLEASE SAY SO. IF YOU
13 NEED A BREAK, WE'LL TAKE ONE. l
14
15 MATTER.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS
WE CONTINUE WITH THE EXAMINATION OF ANDRES.
l
16
17
AND, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY PROCEED.
l
18 ANDRES L., l
20 SWORN, TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS: l
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
l
23
24
Q. WELCOME BACK, ANDRES.
ANDRES, YESTERDAY WE LEFT OFF ON YOUR INTERVIEW
l
25 WITH MR. TROCHA ON PAGE 3. DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT, l
26 ANDRES?
27 A. THIS? l
28 THE COURT: THAT'S THE ONE, YES.
l
l
r 1290
r 3
4
Q. ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID ON PAGE 3 IS THAT
BEFORE, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED YOU SAW SMOKEY ON THE GROUND
r 5
6
WHEN HE GOT SHOT, YOU ONLY TESTIFIED TO THAT BECAUSE THE
DETECTIVE TOLD YOU TO SAY THAT.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE
TRANSCRIPT AND THE INTERVIEW WE HEARD YESTERDAY, YOUR
r 9 HONOR.
r 10
11 AND 19.
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, I'M LOOKING AT LINES 18
AM I MISREADING?
r 12
13
MR. TROCHA:
WHAT IT STATED.
NO. ON THIS PART OF IT, THAT IS
BUT WHEN WE HEARD THE FULL INTERVIEW
r 14
15
YESTERDAY, WE HEARD ANDRES EXPLAIN WHAT HE DID SEE AND
WHAT THE DETECTIVES TOLD HIM TO SAY, AND THAT WAS
r 16
17
LIMITED TO THE FIVE FEET PORTION.
THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND. YOU'LL BE ABLE TO
r 18 EXPLORE THAT ON REDIRECT, BUT I THINK COUNSEL CAN
r 19
20
EXPLORE THIS ON CROSS.
OVERRULED.
r 21
22
Q. LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION, ANDRES.
YESTERDAY WE LISTENED TO A TAPE, AND ON PAGE
r 23
24
3 -- I'LL READ IT -- THE QUESTION IS BY MR. TROCHA:
"NOW, YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE THAT YOU SAW SMOKEY
r 25
26
ON THE GROUND WHEN HE GOT SHOT.
THE GROUND WHEN HE GOT SHOT?"
DID YOU SEE SMOKEY ON
r 27 YOUR ANSWER WAS, "YES. WELL, ON THE FLOOR WHEN
r 28 HE ACTUALLY GOT SHOT?"
r
1291
l
l
1 "QUESTION: YES.
2 "ANSWER: NO. l
3 "QUESTION: WHEN YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT YOU
4 DID, WHY DID YOU TELL US THAT? l
"ANSWER: BECAUSE THE DETECTIVE TOLD ME TO SAY
5
6 THAT."
1
7
8
YESTERDAY YOU SAID THAT THE CONVERSATION YOU
WERE TALKING ABOUT WAS AT THE POLICE STATION, RIGHT?
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. WHEN YOU WERE AT THE POLICE STATION, YOU HAD
11 JUST BEEN ARRESTED FOR VANDALISM, RIGHT? l
12 A. RIGHT. !'lim)
13 Q. AND IT WAS THEN THAT THE DETECTIVES TOLD YOU J
14
15
THAT YOU HAD TO HELP THEM WITH A CASE SO YOU'D GET LESS
JAIL TIME OR YOU'D HELP YOURSELF, RIGHT? DO YOU
l
16
17
UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?
A. YES, BUT THAT -- CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN?
l
18 Q. YES, ANDRES, I WILL. 1
19 IT WAS AT THAT TIME AT THE POLICE STATION THAT
20 YOU WERE WORRIED ABOUT HOW MUCH TIME IN JAIL YOU MIGHT l
21 HAVE TO DO, WEREN'T YOU?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. AND YOU WERE VISITED BY SOME DETECTIVES, AND,
AS YOU STATED IN THE INTERVIEW, YOU WANTED TO -- WHEN
l
25 YOU WERE TALKING TO THEM, YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT HOW l
26 MUCH JAIL TIME YOU MIGHT HAVE TO DO, RIGHT?
27 A. I WAS THINKING? l
28 Q. YEAH.
l
l
r 1292
r
r
1 A. WELL, YES.
2 Q. AND THEY ASKED YOU TO COME SAY CERTAIN THINGS
r 3
4
THAT WOULD HELP YOU WITH THAT ISSUE OF HOW MUCH JAIL
TIME YOU MIGHT DO, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
YES. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO DETECTIVES, YOU
r 7
8
TOLD THEM CERTAIN THINGS THAT THE REASON YOU TOLD THEM
WAS BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT YOU MIGHT GET LESS TIME IN JAIL;
r 9
10
IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. YES.
r 11 Q. OKAY. AND A LOT OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU TOLD
r 12
13
THEM, THAT YOU WERE TELLING THEM BECAUSE YOU WANTED LESS
TIME IN JAIL, HAD TO DO WITH THIS CASE, RIGHT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
AND AS INDICATED BY THE TRANSCRIPT, ONE OF THE
r 16
17
THINGS THAT YOU TOLD THEM IS THAT YOU SAW SMOKEY WHEN HE
GOT SHOT, RIGHT?
r 18 A. RIGHT.
19 Q. AND THEN YOU INDICATED TO MR. TROCHA THAT THAT

r 20 WASN'T TRUE, YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE SMOKEY WHEN HE GOT
r 21
22
SHOT; YOU JUST TOLD HIM THAT BECAUSE THEY TOLD YOU TO
SAY THAT, RIGHT?
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION.
STATEMENT, AND VAGUE AS TO TIME.

MISSTATES THE PRIOR
r 25 THE COURT: CUMULATIVE AS WELL. SUSTAINED. WE
r 26
27
COVERED THEM. MOVE ON, PLEASE.
r 28 Q. ANDRES, WHO WAS PRESENT AT THIS INTERVIEW?
r
1293
l
l
1 THE COURT: WHICH ONE?
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE ONE AT THE POLICE l
3 STATION.
4 THE WITNESS: ME AND TWO OF THE DETECTIVES. l
5
6 Q. WHAT WERE THEIR NAMES, DO YOU REMEMBER?
l
7
8
A. DETECTIVE RIGHT HERE, PINARELLI, I GUESS, AND
SOME OTHER GUY THAT I DON'T KNOW HIS NAME.
l
9 Q. THE DETECTIVE HERE STANDING TO MY LEFT DIRECTLY l
10 IN FRONT OF YOU, WEARING A SUIT AND A YELLOW SHIRT, DO
11 YOU KNOW HIS NAME? l
12 A. WELL, I REMEMBER JUST PINARELLI. THAT'S IT.
13 Q. YOU THINK HIS NAME IS DETECTIVE PINARELLI? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU MET HIM?
l
16 A. ABOUT LIKE -- SEEN HIM OR MET HIM?
l
17 Q. MET HIM.
18 A. LIKE FOUR -- LIKE THREE OR FOUR TIMES. l
19 Q. YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY HIM IN APRIL OF '08,
20 YOU TALKED TO HIM ON THE PHONE IN JANUARY 2008, YOU SAW l
21 HIM AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS CASE, YOU SAW HIM
22 AT ANOTHER PRIOR HEARING IN THIS CASE, RIGHT? ALL THOSE
l
23
24
TIMES?
A. CORRECT.
l
25 Q. AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS THAT HIS NAME IS l
26 DETECTIVE PINARELLI, RIGHT?
27 A. I'M NOT SURE THAT'S HIS NAME. l
28 Q. OKAY. COULD IT BE DETECTIVE LAMBERT?
l
l
r 1294
r 1 A. MAYBE.
r 2 Q. DO YOU GET PEOPLE'S NAMES AND FACES MIXED UP?
r A. WELL, NAMES, NOT THE FACES.

3
4 Q. YOU GET PEOPLE'S NAMES MIXED UP?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. ANDRES, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU INDICATED
r 7
8
DURING YOUR INTERVIEW WITH MR. TROCHA IS THAT DURING
SOME OF THE QUESTIONS AT A PRIOR HEARING, YOU WERE
r 9
10
CONFUSED, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 11 Q. AND SO IF THERE WAS SOME INCONSISTENCIES, A LOT
r 12
13
OF THEM WERE DUE TO CONFUSION.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT "INCONSISTENCIES" MEANS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
LET ME USE A DIFFERENT WORD.
r 16
17
A LOT OF THINGS THAT YOU SAID THAT MAY HAVE NOT
MADE MUCH SENSE WAS BECAUSE OF PERHAPS YOU WERE
r 18 CONFUSED, RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY "MAKES SENSE"?
21 A. YES.
i
l
22 Q. I'M GOING TO GO THROUGH SOME OF THE THINGS YOU
r 23
24
SAID ON DIRECT THAT MIGHT NOT MAKE SENSE WITH WHAT YOU
SAID AT A PRIOR HEARING, AND YOU TELL ME IF YOU WERE
r 25 CONFUSED OR IF SOMETHING ELSE WAS GOING ON. DO YOU
r 26
27
UNDERSTAND?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. OKAY. WE ALREADY COVERED THIS ONE, BUT A
r
1295
l
l
1 HEARING WHERE YOU SAID YOU SAW SPEEDY PULL A GUN OUT,
2 THAT WASN'T OVER CONFUSION, RIGHT? THAT WAS NOT TRUE, l
3 RIGHT?
4 MR. TROCHA: OBJECT AS TO COMPOUND AND VAGUE. l
l
7 Q. IS THAT RIGHT?
l
8
9
A.
Q.
CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN?
DO YOU REMEMBER YESTERDAY WE TALKED HOW AT THE
, j
10 HEARING ABOUT A YEAR AGO YOU MADE THE GESTURE THAT YOU
11 PULLED OUT A GUN AND INDICATED THAT'S WHAT YOU SAW l
12 SPEEDY DO, AT THE PRIOR HEARING, AND YESTERDAY YOU TOLD
13 US THAT YOU WEREN'T CONFUSED ABOUT THAT QUESTION, BUT l
14
15
YOU ACTUALLY LIED ABOUT IT AT THAT HEARING.
REMEMBER THAT?
DO YOU
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. YESTERDAY YOU STATED THAT THAT NIGHT AT THE
18 PARK, YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY THROW UP, RIGHT? l
19 A. RIGHT.
20 Q. OKAY. FROM YOUR PRIOR HEARING, ANDRES, ABOUT A l
21 YEAR AGO, NOT THE LAST ONE, BUT THE ONE BEFORE THAT, I'M
22 GOING TO READ YOU PART OF YOUR TESTIMONY. OKAY?
l
23
24
READING FROM PAGE 110 -- YOUR HONOR, IT'S THE
HEARING FROM APRIL 1ST, 2010 --AND IT'S GOING TO BE
l
25 LINES 1 THROUGH 9: l
26 "QUESTION: DID YOU THROW UP THAT NIGHT?
27 "ANSWER: YEAH, I WAS THROWING UP. l
28 "QUESTION: WHAT TIME DID YOU THROW UP?
l
l
r 1296
r
L
1 "ANSWER: BEFORE. IT WAS LIKE A COUPLE -- LIKE
r 2 AN HOUR BEFORE WE RAN.
r
3 "QUESTION: AN HOUR BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
4 "ANSWER: YEAH.
r 5
6
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
AND WHAT CAUSED YOU TO THROW UP?
WELL, THE BEER."
r 7
8
WHEN YOU TESTIFIED TO THAT AT THE PRELIMINARY
HEARING, ANDRES, DID YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTIONS THAT
r 9 WERE BEING ASKED?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
THE FIRST HEARING?
YES, THE FIRST HEARING.
r 12
13 A.
DID YOU LISTEN TO WHAT I JUST READ?
YES.
r 14
15
Q. DID YOU AT THAT TIME, ABOUT A YEAR AGO -- DID
YOU UNDERSTAND THOSE QUESTIONS?
r 16
17
A. WELL, I'M NOT REALLY SURE.
OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IF WHAT YOU SAID WAS BECAUSE
r 18 OF CONFUSION OR WAS IT BECAUSE YOU LIED IN COURT?
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
CONCLUSION.
OBJECTION. CALLS FOR A
rt 21 THE COURT: OVERRULED.

22 THE WITNESS: CONFUSION.
r 23
24
Q. YOU WERE CONFUSED? OKAY.
r 25 NOW, THE NEXT HEARING WHERE YOU CAME TO COURT,
r 26
27
READING FROM THE HEARING ON OCTOBER 7, 2010, THIS IS
GOING TO BE PAGES 161 AND 162, LINES 14 THROUGH 28 ON
r 28 161, AND THE 1 THROUGH 17 ON 162:
r
1297
l
l
1 "QUESTION: THE NIGHT -- THAT NIGHT, DID YOU
2 THROW UP? l
3 "ANSWER: YEAH. NOT A LOT. JUST I THREW UP
4 LIKE NORMAL, LIKE. l
5 "QUESTION: YOU THREW UP THAT NIGHT?
6 "ANSWER: YES.
l
7 "QUESTION: WAS IT BECAUSE YOU WERE DRINKING?
l
8
9
"ANSWER:
MUCH, TOO MUCH FOOD.
BECAUSE -- I GUESS BECAUSE I ATE TOO
, j
10 "QUESTION: IT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH

11 THE BLUNTS AND THE ALCOHOL? l
12 "ANSWER: NO.
13 "QUESTION: WHAT TIME DID YOU THROW UP? l
14
15
"ANSWER: LIKE, WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME.
I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT TIME. I DIDN'T HAVE A CLOCK OR
l
16 NOTHING WITH ME ALWAYS CHECKING THE TIME, YOU KNOW, BUT
l
17 IT WAS LIKE -- IT WAS GETTING DARK ALREADY. IT WAS,
18 LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, JUST KIND OF DARK. l
19 "QUESTION: DID THE BEER CAUSE YOU TO THROW UP?
l
20
21 ANSWERED."
OBJECTION BY THE PROSECUTION, "ASKED AND
, 1
22 "THE COURT: OVERRULED.
23
24
"THE COURT REPORTER:
THE WITNESS'S ANSWER?
EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.
l
25 "THE COURT: DID YOU SAY YES? l
26 "THE WITNESS: YES.
27 "QUESTION: DID YOU THROW UP AN HOUR BEFORE THE l
28 SHOOTING?
l
l
r 1298
r 1 "ANSWER: AN HOUR BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
r 2
3
"QUESTION: BEFORE MOISES WAS SHOT, WASN'T IT
r
APPROXIMATELY AN HOUR BEFORE THE SHOOTING THAT YOU THREW
4 UP?
r 5
6
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
WELL, YEAH, YEAH. WELL, I GUESS.
IS THAT -- THAT'S A YES, IT WAS AN
r 7
8
HOUR?
"ANSWER: WELL, LIKE AN HOUR, YOU SAID."
r 9
10
WHEN YOU TESTIFIED AT THAT HEARING
APPROXIMATELY SEVEN MONTHS LATER -- DID YOU HEAR WHAT I
r 11 JUST READ TO YOU, ANDRES?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
THOSE ANSWER THAT YOU GAVE THAT INDICATED YOU
r 14
15
DID THROW UP, DID YOU GIVE THOSE BECAUSE YOU WERE
CONFUSED OR DID YOU GIVE THOSE BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT
r 16
17
TELLING THE TRUTH IN COURT?
A. I WAS CONFUSED.
r 18 Q. SO YOUR TESTIMONY IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID WAS OUT
r 19
20
OF CONFUSION?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. ON DIRECT YESTERDAY, YOU TALKED ABOUT THERE
BEING A LOT OF LIGHTS IN THE PARK WHERE YOU WERE
r 23
24
STANDING.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
YES.
r 25 Q. YOU INDICATED A LIGHT ABOVE THE TREES. DO YOU
r 26
27
REMEMBER?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. AND THEN MAYBE ANOTHER LIGHT OVER BY THE
r
1299
l
l
1 STREET. DO YOU REMEMBER?
2 A. WHAT STREET? l
3 Q. I BELIEVE IT WAS 40TH STREET.
4 A. YEAH, MAYBE. l
Q. OKAY. I'M GOING TO READ YOU YOUR TESTIMONY
5
6 FROM, AGAIN, OCTOBER 7TH. THIS IS GOING TO BE PAGES 140
l
7
8
AND 141, LINES 19 THROUGH 28 ON 140, AND 1 THROUGH 14 ON
PAGE 141.
l
9 I THINK I HAVE THE WRONG PAGE CITE. CAN I TAKE l
10 A MINUTE TO LOOK THAT UP?
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. FOUND IT. THANK
13 YOU. I'M GOING TO CHANGE THAT TO I BELIEVE IT'S THE l
14
15
SAME LINE NUMBERS BUT THE PAGES ARE 139 AND 140.
1
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST TO REMIND US, BECAUSE
l
17 THERE WAS A LITTLE BREAK IN TIME, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
18 YOUR TESTIMONY YESTERDAY WHERE YOU TALKED ABOUT THERE l
19 BEING LIGHTS IN THE PARK. OKAY?
20 THE COURT: NOW HE'S GOING TO READ YOU FROM AN l
21 EARLIER TIME THAT YOU TESTIFIED AND ASK YOU SOME
22 QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT COMPARED TO WHAT YOU SAID
l J
23
24
YESTERDAY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
THE WITNESS: YES.
l
25 THE COURT: OKAY. l
27 Q. "QUESTION: IT WAS NIGHTTIME. l
28 "ANSWER: YEAH, IT WAS NIGHT.
l
l
r 1300
r 1
r 2
"QUESTION:
WASN'T DURING THE DAY.
IT WASN'T DUSK. IT CERTAINLY
r 3
4
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
NO.
AND IT CERTAINLY WASN'T DUSK OR
r 5
6
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
"ANSWER: YES.
r 7
8
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
YOU KNOW WHAT DUSK IS, RIGHT?
NO.
r 9 "QUESTION: DUSK IS -- YOU KNOW HOW WHEN THE
r 10
11
SUN GOES DOWN, IT GETS DARK GRADUALLY, RIGHT?
"ANSWER: YES.
r 12
13
"QUESTION: AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT FULLY DARK,
BUT PARTIALLY DARK, RIGHT?
r 14
15
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
YES.
THAT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS OUT.
r 16
17
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
NO.
IT WAS FULLY DARK.
r 18 "ANSWER: YES.
r
(_
19
20
"QUESTION: OKAY. AND WHERE YOU WERE STANDING,
THERE WERE NO LIGHTS ON, CORRECT?
r 21
22
"ANSWER: YES."
WHEN YOU TESTIFIED TO THAT AT THE PRIOR
r 23
24
HEARING, ANDRES, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU AGAIN, IS THAT
BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU
r 25
26
ANSWERED THAT WAY, OR IS IT BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT TELLING
THE TRUTH IN COURT?
r 27 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
r 28 Q. WHEN YOU ANSWERED THAT, THE LAST PART OF WHAT I
r
1301
l
l
1 JUST READ, YOU WERE ASKED IF THERE WERE ANY LIGHTS IN
2 THE PARK WHERE YOU WERE STANDING. YOUR ANSWER WAS "NO." l
3 DID YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE CONFUSED,
4 THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, OR DID YOU SAY l
5 IT BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T TELLING THE TRUTH IN COURT?
6 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'M NOT SURE I
l
7
8
SEE THE INCONSISTENCY YOU'RE TRYING TO POINT OUT.
QUESTION YOU READ SAID WHERE HE WAS STANDING. IT
THE
l
9 DOESN'T SAY WHEN. I ASSUME IT MEANS WHEN HE WAS l
10 URINATING. HE WAS UNDER THE TREES, AND THERE MAY NOT
11 HAVE BEEN ANY LIGHTS UNDER THE TREES. 1
12 WHAT IS THE INCONSISTENCY YOU'RE TRYING TO
13 MAKE? l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS PART OF THE TRANSCRIPT,
YOUR HONOR, IS TALKING ABOUT HIS OBSERVATION OF THE
l
l
16
17
18
19
SHOOTING. IT GOES ON TO SAY, "AND YOU WERE 30 TO 40
FEET AWAY WHEN YOU MADE YOUR OBSERVATION?
"ANSWER:
THE COURT:
YES."
BUT THE QUESTION HAD TO DO WITH
,
20 LIGHTS. WHAT WAS THE OPERATIVE QUESTION ABOUT THE
1 :J
21 LIGHTS?
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "AND WHERE YOU WERE
l
23
24
STANDING, THERE WERE NO LIGHTS ON."
THE COURT: WELL, HE WAS STANDING UNDER THE
l
25 TREES, URINATING, ACCORDING TO HIS TESTIMONY, AND THERE l
26 WERE NO LIGHTS THERE.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE TESTIFIED YESTERDAY THERE l
28 WERE LIGHTS BY THE LONG LINE OF TREES.
l
l
r 1302
r 1 THE COURT: THE COURT SUSTAINS ITS OWN
r 2 OBJECTION TO THE QUESTION.
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
ALL RIGHT. I'LL MOVE ON.
r 5
6
Q. ON DIRECT YESTERDAY, ANDRES, YOU TESTIFIED THAT
SPEEDY WAS POINTING HIS HAND AT SMOKEY WHEN YOU TURNED
r 7
8
AROUND AND SAW THE SHOOTING, CORRECT?
A. RIGHT.
r 9
10
Q. TRIAL TRANSCRIPT 2, WHICH WOULD BE OCTOBER 7,
PRIOR HEARING TRANSCRIPT, PAGE 23, LINES 11 THROUGH 19.
r 11 ANDRES, I'M GOING TO READ YOU YOUR PRIOR
r 12
13
TESTIMONY. OKAY?
"QUESTION: WHAT DID YOU SEE SPEEDY DOING THAT
r 14
15
WOULD INDICATE HE HAD A GUN?
"ANSWER: WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
r 16
17
"QUESTION: SURE. DID HE MAKE ANY ACTIONS OR
DO ANYTHING AS YOU WERE WATCHING THAT TOLD YOU HE HAD A
r 18 GUN?
r
19 "ANSWER: NO.
20 "QUESTION: WAS HE POINTING HIS HAND AT
r 21
22
SOMETHING?
"ANSWER: NO."
r 23
24
ANDRES, DID YOU SAY THAT AT THE PRIOR HEARING
BECAUSE YOU WERE CONFUSED OR BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T TELLING
r 25 THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT YOU SAW?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
CAN YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION AGAIN?
DID YOU WANT ME TO READ IT AGAIN OR REPEAT THE
r 28 QUESTION AGAIN? READ IT AGAIN?
r
1303
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. "QUESTION: WHAT DID YOU SEE SPEEDY DOING THAT l
3 WOULD INDICATE HE HAD A GUN?
4 "ANSWER: WHAT DO YOU MEAN? l
"QUESTION: SURE. DID HE MAKE ANY ACTIONS OR
5
6 DO ANYTHING AS YOU WERE WATCHING THAT TOLD YOU HE HAD A
l
7
8
GUN?
"ANSWER: NO.
l
9 "QUESTION: WAS HE POINTING HIS HAND AT l
10 SOMETHING?
11 "ANSWER: NO." l
12 DID YOU TESTIFY TO THAT, ANDRES, BECAUSE YOU
13 WERE CONFUSED OR WAS IT BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T TELLING THE l
14
15
TRUTH IN COURT?
A. WELL, YES, I WAS TOTALLY CONFUSED.
1
16 Q. YOU WERE CONFUSED DURING THAT POINT?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IT WAS MR. TROCHA WHO WAS ASKING YOU THE l
19 QUESTIONS DURING THIS ONE, RIGHT?
20 THE COURT: DO YOU REMEMBER? l
21 THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER WHO.
l
23
24
Q. YESTERDAY YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU SAW SPEEDY'S
ENTIRE BODY AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING. DO YOU
l
25 REMEMBER? l
26 A. YESTERDAY?
27 Q. YES. l
28 A. YES.
l
l
[
1304
[
1 Q. THIS IS GOING TO BE PAGE 109, LINES 13 THROUGH
r 2 27.
r 3
4
"QUESTION: WHEN YOU WERE TAKING A PISS BY THE
BUSHES AND YOU TURNED AROUND, TELL ME WHAT YOU SAW.
r 5
6
"ANSWER:
"QUESTION:
I SAW SPEEDY'S HEAD.
YOU SAW SPEEDY'S HEAD. DID YOU SEE
[ 7 HIS ARM, HIS RIGHT ARM?

8 "ANSWER: NO.
r 9
10
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
HOW ABOUT HIS LEFT ARM?
NO.
r'
L 11 "QUESTION: COULD YOU SEE FROM HERE DOWN? AND
r 12
13
MY HAND IS AT THE KNOT IN MY TIE.
HERE DOWN?
COULD YOU SEE FROM
r 14
15
"ANSWER:
THE COURT:
NO."
DIDN'T WE COVER THIS YESTERDAY?
r 16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE HEARD THIS PRIOR, BUT I
r
17 WANTED TO ASK IF IT WAS BECAUSE HE WAS CONFUSED.
18 THE COURT: WE'VE COVERED IT.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
OKAY.
r 21
22
Q. ON DIRECT YESTERDAY, ANDRES, YOU STATED THAT
YOU WERE UNSURE IF YOU SAW CROOKS, RIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS CROOKS OR
[ 25 YOGI, RIGHT?
26 A. CORRECT.
[ 27 Q. THIS IS GOING TO BE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT FROM THE
r 28 PRIOR HEARING OCTOBER 7TH ACTUALLY, BEFORE I DO THAT,
r
1305
l
l
1 PRELIMINARY HEARING TRANSCRIPT PAGE 86, LINES 6 THROUGH
2 18. I'M GOING TO READ YOU, ANDRES, THE HEARING YOU l
3 TESTIFIED AT NOT THE LAST TIME, BUT THE ONE BEFORE THAT.
4 OKAY? l
5
6
A.
Q.
OKAY.
"QUESTION: WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE VIEW OF
1
7
8
YOU AS YOU WERE SITTING THERE?
"ANSWER: THEY WERE JUMPING PEOPLE IN.
l
9 "QUESTION: WHO WAS JUMPING PEOPLE IN? 1
10 "ANSWER: SPEEDY, CROOKS, YOGI, ANT AND ,.,
11 CARTOONS. J
12 "QUESTION: CARTOONS?
13 "ANSWER: YEAH.
l
14
15
"QUESTION:
"ANSWER:
YOU MENTIONED CROOKS, CORRECT?
YEAH.
l
16 "QUESTION: THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM LIL CROOKS,
l
17 CORRECT?
18 "ANSWER: YES. l
19 "QUESTION: IT'S NOT THE SAME PERSON?
20 "ANSWER: NO." l
21 WHEN YOU TESTIFIED TO THAT, ANDRES, YOU SAID
22 THAT CROOKS AND YOGI WERE AT THE PARK, RIGHT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
WERE YOU SAYING THAT -- WHEN YOU SAID YOU WERE
l
25 UNSURE WELL, WERE YOU SAYING THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE l
26 CONFUSED?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. I'M GOING TO READ FROM TRIAL TRANSCRIPT PAGE --
l
l
r 1306
r 1 THIS IS GOING TO BE 28 THROUGH 30, LINES 16 THROUGH 28
r 2 AND 1 THROUGH 28 AND 1 THROUGH 22 RESPECTIVELY.
r
3 YOUR HONOR, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO TAKE ONE
4 MINUTE, BECAUSE THESE ANNOTATIONS ARE DIFFICULT TO GET.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
YOU MAY.
COUNSEL, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
r 7
8
128?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I MAY BE, COUNSEL. THANK
r 9 YOU. YES, THANK YOU, COUNSEL. IT'S GOING TO BE 128,
r 10
11
129, 130, LINES 26 THROUGH 28, 1 THROUGH 28, AND
THE COURT: WHY ARE WE READING SO MUCH
r 12
13
TESTIMONY?
BE?
WHAT IS THE THRUST OF THE QUESTION GOING TO
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S GOING TO BE IDENTIFYING
THAT CROOKS WAS THERE AND HAVING HIM DESCRIBE WHAT
r 16
17
CROOKS LOOKS LIKE.
THE COURT: HOW IS THAT INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT
r 18 HE SAID HERE? HE SAID HE WAS UNSURE IF CROOKS OR YOGI
r 19
20
WERE THERE. HOW IS THAT INCONSISTENT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ON 130 THE QUESTION IS:
r 21
22
"BUT YOU'RE CERTAIN HE WAS THERE?"
"YEAH."
AND THE ANSWER WAS,
r 23
24 IMPEACHMENT.
THE COURT: NOT SUFFICIENT TO WARRANT THE
SUSTAINED.
r 26
27
Q. ANDRES, WE JUST WENT THROUGH SOME STATEMENTS
r 28 THAT YOU MADE IN THE PAST IN COURT. ONE OF THEM YOU
r
1307
l
l
1 INDICATED THAT YOU LIED, AND MOST OF THEM YOU INDICATED
2 THAT YOU WERE CONFUSED ABOUT THE QUESTIONS, RIGHT? l
3 A. RIGHT.
4 Q. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ONES THAT IN THE l
5 PREVIOUS HEARING YOU LIED ABOUT, THAT'S DIFFICULT FOR
6 YOU TO TALK ABOUT, RIGHT?
l
7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
NO, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.
l
10 Q. IT'S NOT EASY FOR YOU TO ADMIT THAT YOU LIED IN
11 A PRIOR HEARING, RIGHT? l
13 Q. IS IT WHEN YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU LIED IN A l
14
15
PRIOR HEARING, DO YOU FEEL BAD ABOUT IT OR ASHAMED?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
l
16 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER THAT.
l
17 THE WITNESS: CAN YOU LIKE EXPLAIN IT IN --
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT ASHAMED MEANS?
20 A. WELL, NOT REALLY. l
21 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW YOU FEEL WHEN YOU DO SOMETHING
22 WRONG?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
THE WAY YOU FEEL WHEN YOU DO SOMETHING WRONG,
l
25 IS THAT THE WAY YOU FEEL WHEN YOU HAVE TO TELL EVERYBODY l
26 THAT YOU LIED IN A PRIOR HEARING?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. OKAY. AND IT'S DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO SAY THAT
l
l
r 1308
r 1 YOU LIED, RIGHT?
r 2 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S DIFFICULT?
r
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT "DIFFICULT" MEANS, ANDRES?
4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HARD MEANS?
YES.
r 7
8
Q. IT'S HARD FOR YOU TO TELL THE COURT AND THE
JURY MEMBERS THAT YOU LIED, CORRECT? IT'S DIFFICULT TO
r 9 SAY THAT. IT'S HARD TO SAY THAT.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YEAH?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
SO WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU, ANDRES, IS SOME OF
r 14
15
THE TIMES THAT YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU SAID THOSE PRIOR
THINGS BECAUSE YOU WERE CONFUSED, ARE YOU ONLY SAYING
r 16
17
THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE FEELING BAD ABOUT HAVING SAID THOSE
THINGS?
r 18 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
352.
THANK YOU.
r 21
22
Q. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID IN YOUR DIRECT
r 23
24
TESTIMONY YESTERDAY, ANDRES, IS THAT YOU SAW SPEEDY AND
HIS GIRLFRIEND IN THE PARK AT ONE POINT, RIGHT?
r 25 A. RIGHT.
r 26
27
Q. OKAY.
AT THE PARK, RIGHT?
IN THE PAST, YOU'VE BEEN ASKED WHO WAS
r 28 A. RIGHT.
r
1309
l
l
1 Q. AND YOU WERE.ASKED WHO WAS AT THE PARK THE
2 FIRST TIME YOU TALKED TO DETECTIVE LAMBERT WHEN YOU WERE l
3 IN JUVENILE HALL, RIGHT?
4 A. RIGHT. l
5 Q. YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT WHO WAS AT THE PARK WHEN
6 DETECTIVE LAMBERT CALLED YOU ON THE PHONE ABOUT SEVEN OR
l
7
8
EIGHT MONTHS AFTER THAT MEETING, RIGHT?
A. NOT REALLY SURE.
l
9 Q. OKAY. YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT WHO WAS AT THE PARK l
10 WHEN YOU TESTIFIED FOR THE FIRST TIME ABOUT A YEAR AGO,
11 RIGHT? l
12 A. RIGHT.
13 Q. YOU WERE ASKED WHO WAS AT THE PARK WHEN YOU l
14
15
TESTIFIED ABOUT FIVE MONTHS AGO, RIGHT?
THE COURT: DO YOU REMEMBER IF YOU WERE ASKED
l
16 ABOUT THAT?
l
17 THE WITNESS: NO.
19 Q. OKAY. NONE OF THOSE TIMES THAT YOU WERE ASKED
20 THAT QUESTION -- YOU NEVER MENTIONED SEEING SPEEDY'S l
21 GIRLFRIEND AT THE PARK, RIGHT?
22 A. RIGHT.
l
23
24
Q. OKAY. DID YOU TALK TO DISTRICT ATTORNEY
INVESTIGATORS OR MR. TROCHA ABOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ OR
l
25 SPEEDY'S GIRLFRIEND DURING YOUR WALK-THROUGH TWO DAYS l
26 AGO AT THE PARK?
27 A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER. l
28 Q. NOT THAT YOU REMEMBER? OKAY.
l
l
r 1310
r 1 WELL, COULD YOU HAVE, BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE
r 2 FORGOTTEN?
r
3 A. NOT REALLY SURE.
4 Q. NOT SURE? OKAY. FAIR ENOUGH. THANK YOU.
r 5
6
ANDRES, YOU SAID AROUND THE TIME THAT SMOKEY
WAS KILLED, YOU WERE HANGING AROUND WITH SHELLTOWN OR
r 7
8
38TH STREET.
A. BEFORE?
r 9
10
Q. AROUND THE TIME.
MR. TROCHA:
NOT BEFORE.
OBJECT AS VAGUE.
AROUND THE TIME.
IS THIS AT THE
r 11 PARK OR IN GENERAL?
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL REPHRASE.
r 14
15
Q. IN GENERAL, YOU WERE HANGING AROUND WITH THAT
r 16
17
GANG, THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE, SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET,
AROUND THE TIME MOISES WAS KILLED; IS THAT RIGHT?
r 18
19
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW A GANG CALLED SHERMAN?

r- 20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT'S SHERMAN?
SHERMAN?
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT IS IT?
IT'S A GANG.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
WERE YOU EVER A MEMBER OF THAT GANG?
NO.
r 27 Q. YOU NEVER CLAIMED SHERMAN ON APRIL 4, 2008?
r 28 A. NO.
r
1311
l
l
1 Q. OKAY. YOU WEREN'T SCRATCHING OUT "LOGAN" ON A
2 SIDEWALK ON THAT DATE? l
3 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "SCRATCHING OUT"?
l.
4
5
Q. WELL, IF "LOGAN" WAS WRITTEN ON THE SIDEWALK
AND MAYBE YOU TOOK A PIECE OF CHALK OR SPRAY PAINT OR , J
6 SOMETHING, TRIED TO CROSS THE WRITING OUT.
7
8
DID THAT HAPPEN ON APRIL 4, 2008, OR ABOUT
THREE YEARS AGO?
l
9 A. NO. 1
10 Q. NEVER HAPPENED?
11 HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A GANG CALLED CITY l
12 HEIGHTS JUNIORS?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
WHO ARE THEY?
CITY HEIGHTS.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
ARE THEY A GANG?
WELL, YEAH, I GUESS.
1
18 Q. ARE THEY RIVALS OF SHELLTOWN? l
19 A. NOT THAT I KNOW.
20 Q. HOW ABOUT -- IS IT LHRS? HAVE YOU HEARD OF l
21 THEM?
22 A. ABOUT WHAT?
l
23
24
Q.
STEPS.
IS IT LHRS? IT'S CALLED LOGAN HEIGHTS RED
HAVE YOU HEARD OF THAT GANG?
l
25 A. I'VE HEARD OF IT. l
26 Q. YOU WEREN'T JUMPED IN TO THAT GANG?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. ON OCTOBER 31ST, 2008, WHICH WOULD BE ABOUT
l
l
r 1312
r 1 SEVEN WEEKS AFTER MOISES WAS SHOT, WERE YOU HANGING OUT
r 2 WITH JORGE MARTINEZ?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW. WHO IS THAT?
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO JORGE MARTINEZ IS?
5 A. NO.
[ 6 Q. DO YOU KNOW -- YOU WEREN'T CLAIMING TO HAVE
r 7
8
BEEN JUMPED IN TO EITHER CITY HEIGHTS JUNIORS OR LHRS ON
THAT DATE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
NO.
OKAY. THANK YOU.
c 11 ANDRES, DURING YOUR INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE
12 LAMBERT, YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY THAT HE SHOWED YOU SOME

[ 13 PICTURES, RIGHT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
HE NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWED YOU ANY PICTURES, DID
r 16
17
HE?
A. YES, HE DID.
r 18
19
Q.
PICTURES?
IS THAT WHAT YOU REMEMBER, THAT HE SHOWED YOU
r 20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
OKAY.
YES.
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?
r 23
24
Q. OKAY.
LINE AFTER --
CAN I HAVE AN EXHIBIT MARKED NEXT IN
r 25 THE CLERK: IS SS NEXT IN LINE?
r 26 THE COURT: YES.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO USE THE BUTCHER
r 28 PAPER. IT'S GOING TO BE A LIST OF NAMES.
r
1313
l
l
1 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT SS, LIST OF NAMES, WAS
2 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) l
4 Q. ANDRES, I'M GOING TO HAVE A LIST HERE OF NAMES, l
5 AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU IF THOSE PEOPLE WERE AT THE
6 PARK. AND IF THEY WERE, I'M GOING TO PUT THEM ON THE
l
7
8
LIST.
A.
OKAY?
YES.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
l
9 THE COURT: AT THE PARK WHEN? l
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE NIGHT MOISES PASSED
11 AWAY. l
13 Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
IT'S GOING TO BE DEFENSE SS.
l
16 SO WE KNOW SPEEDY WAS THERE.
l
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. CROOKS YOU'RE UNSURE OF; IS THAT RIGHT? l
19 A. CORRECT.
20 Q. TO INDICATE YOU'RE NOT CERTAIN HE WAS THERE, l
21 I'LL PUT A QUESTION MARK. IS THAT ALL RIGHT?
22 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. CROOKS OR YOGI WAS THE
l
23
24
TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THAT'S WHAT THE
l
25 TESTIMONY HAS BEEN. HE'S NOT SAYING CROOKS WAS THERE. l
27 Q. YOU'RE SAYING l
28 A. CROOKS OR YOGI.
l
l
r 1314
r 1 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF EVEN YOGI WAS THERE; IS
r 2 THAT RIGHT?
r
3 A. RIGHT.
4 Q. CARTOONS, WAS HE THERE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
HE WASN'T THERE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
WELL, THAT I REMEMBER, NO.
DID YOU STATE AT THE LAST HEARING THAT HE WAS
r 9
10
THERE?
i
I
l 11 Q. ALL RIGHT. GIVE ME ONE SECOND.
r 12
13 A.
SO YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF CARTOONS WAS THERE?
NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT HEFTY?
HEFTY, I THINK. I'M NOT SURE IF HE WAS THERE.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
SO YOU'RE NOT SURE ABOUT HEFTY EITHER?
NO.
r 18 Q. HOW ABOUT KNUCKLES?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
KNUCKLES WAS THERE.
r 21
22 A.
SCRAPPY?
NOT SURE.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
RACCOON?
YES.
r. 25 Q. RACCOON WAS THERE?

26 A. YES.
r 27 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL NAME?
r 28 A. NO.
r
1315
l
l
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW KNUCKLES' REAL NAME?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. WHAT IS IT?
4 A. RAUL. l
TOKER?
5
6
Q.
A. YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
TEMPER?
YES. THE GIRL TEMPER OR --
l
9 Q. THE GIRL TEMPER. l
10 A. YES.
l J
12 A. EVELYN.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW HER LAST NAME?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT IS TOKER'S REAL NAME?
l
17 Q. LITTLE ONE OR LIL ONE, WAS SHE THERE?
18 A. YES. l
21 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW HER FIRST NAME?
22 A. NO.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
STONY?
NOT REALLY SURE.
l
25 Q. DON'T KNOW IF STONY WAS THERE? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. SPANKY? l
28 A. WHICH SPANKY?
l
l
F'
I
1316
r
1 Q. BIG SPANKY.
i
! 2 A. YES.
f7WI 3 Q. HOW ABOUT LIL SPANKY?

4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
SPORTY?
NOT SURE.
r
I
l
7 Q. BARLOS?
8 A. YES.
i 9 Q. BAR LOS WAS THERE?
10 DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL NAME?
r 11 A. NO.
r
l
12 Q. LET'S GO BACK.
13 HOW ABOUT BIG SPANKY I DO YOU KNOW HIS REAL
r 14
15
NAME?
A. NO.
rt. 16 Q. LIL SPANKY?
17 A. YES.
r 18 Q. WHAT IS IT?
r 19 A. CHRISTIAN.
20 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N.
CHUCK?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
CHINO?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
LIL CHINO.
LIL CHINO IS FINE. LIL CHINO?
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. HE WAS THERE?
r
1317
l
1 BIG CHUBS?
YES. WELL, WHICH CHUBS? WHICH ONE ARE YOU
II
2 A.
3 TALKING ABOUT? 1-1 I
4 Q. BIG CHUBS. I
5 A. I'M NOT SURE. r=,

i
I
_j
6 Q. NOT SURE ON HIM?

7 HOW ABOUT LIL CHUBS? l
8 A. I THINK MAYBE, YES. I DON'T REALLY REMEMBER.
9 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF EITHER BIG OR LIL CHUBS
10
11
WAS THERE?
A. NO.
, J
12 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU, ANDRES. ., J

13 DO YOU REMEMBER WE WERE TALKING ABOUT CITY
14 HEIGHTS JUNIORS, ANDRES?
15 A. YES.
l
16
17
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT W, DOCUMENT INDICATING
ANDRES L. IS LITTLE DEAD MAN, WAS MARKED FOR
l
r=;
l
20 Q. THIS IS DEFENSE W. THIS IS PAGE 4. l
21 ANDRES, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS? HAVE YOU
22 SEEN THIS BEFORE?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
WHERE?
THIS DOCUMENT I'M SHOWING YOU.
l
25 A. NO.
l
26 Q. OKAY. IT INDICATES YOU WERE NAMED LITTLE DEAD
27 MAN AT THAT TIME. IS THAT ACCURATE OR NO? l
28 A. WELL, NOT ME.
l
l
r
i
1318
r
1 Q. YOU WERE NEVER CALLED LITTLE DEAD MAN?
r 2 A. NO.
3 Q. OKAY. THANKS.
r 4 JUROR NO. 11: JUDGE, WHAT WAS THAT DOCUMENT?
r
L
5
6
THE COURT: INADMISSIBLE HEARSAY.
WORDS, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE ITSELF.
IN OTHER
r
)
7 IT GIVES COUNSEL A BASIS FOR ASKING THE WITNESS THE
8 QUESTION. AND THEN WHEN THE WITNESS SAID, "I'VE NEVER
r 9 SEEN THE DOCUMENT," THEN THAT'S IT. GOOD QUESTION,
r 10
11
HOWEVER, FROM JUROR 11.
THE CLERK: FOR VERIFICATION, THAT WAS EXHIBIT
r 12
13
W?
THE COURT: YES.
r 14
15
THE CLERK:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU.
WOULD ANYBODY LIKE A BREAK?
r 16
17
THE JURORS:
THE COURT:
YES.
I THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD TIME FOR
r 18 A BREAK. I WOULD LIKE ONE TOO.
r
19 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE LEAVE THE
20 MATERIALS ON THE CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE
r 21
22
ADMONITION.
HOUR.
WE'LL RECONVENE AT 15 MINUTES AFTER THE
r 23
24
THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
r 25
26
r 27 THE COURT: THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
r 28 CALIFORNIA AGAINST FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND
r
i \
1319
~
i
j
1 COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. NO JURORS ARE PRESENT.

~
I
,
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI. )

i
4 I'M TRYING TO GET IN A PRIOR INCONSISTENT I
5 STATEMENT HERE. THE WITNESS TESTIFIED AT PRELIMINARY

6
7
HEARING WHETHER BUTCH WAS THERE; HE ANSWERED YES; ALSO
WHETHER CROOKS WAS THERE; HE ALSO ANSWERED YES. ,
8 AT THE LAST TRIAL HE TESTIFIED -- WELL, HE WAS
9 ASKED ABOUT CROOKS, WAS CROOKS THERE, AND I CAN HAVE THE
10 COURT REVIEW THE TRANSCRIPT IF NEED BE, BUT JUST TO BE ,
,
11 SURE, I SAID, "HOW ABOUT CROOKS? WAS CROOKS THERE?" J
i
12 "YES."
i
13 AND THEN I GO ON AND HAVE HIM DESCRIBE WHAT
14 CROOKS LOOKS LIKE, GIVE A PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION OF HIM.
l
15
16
AND THEN THE LAST QUESTION IS, "BUT YOU'RE CERTAIN THAT
HE WAS THERE?" CERTAIN HE WAS THERE IS THE EXACT
, )
17 WORDING OF THE QUESTION.

18 THE ANSWER IS, "YEAH." 1
,
J
19 THE VERY NEXT LINE OF QUESTIONING IS WHETHER

20
21
22
YOGI, OR BUTCH, WAS THERE, AND HE SAYS, "YES, HE WAS
THERE."
I BELIEVE THAT THAT IS FACTUALLY INCONSISTENT,
, J
23
24
RIGHT ON POINT WITH THE WITNESS'S TESTIMONY AT TRIAL.
I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO PUT THAT ON THE RECORD.
l
25 THE COURT: HIS TESTIMONY AT TRIAL WITH RESPECT l
26 TO CROOKS WAS HE WASN'T SURE IF CROOKS OR YOGI WAS
27 THERE. REFRESH MY MEMORY. l
28 MR. TROCHA: THE PRESENT TRIAL?
l
l
1320
1 THE COURT: THE PRESENT TRIAL.

r
'
2 MR. TROCHA: THE PRESENT TRIAL IS CROOKS OR
fit
3 YOGI WAS THERE, BECAUSE THEY BOTH LOOK THE SAME. AND I
i
l 4 WOULD AGREE THAT THEY LOOK VERY, VERY SIMILAR AS WELL.
r
l
5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND IN THE TRIAL, I GO
THROUGH -- IT'S A MATTER OF THREE PAGES. I GO THROUGH
r
I
(
7 WITH HIM, "WHAT DOES CROOKS LIKE?" I HAVE HIM DESCRIBE
8 HIM, AND HE DESCRIBES HIM FINE. AND THEN I SAY, "ARE
r 9
10
YOU CERTAIN HE WAS THERE?" THE ANSWER IS "YES."
AND THEN THE VERY NEXT LINE OF QUESTIONING WAS
r 11 HOW ABOUT YOGI? WAS YOGI THERE -- BUTCH AND YOGI ARE
r 12
13
THE SAME PERSON. SO I SAID, "WAS YOGI THERE?"
SAYS, "YES," INDICATING THAT THERE IS NO CONFUSION THAT
AND HE
r 14
15
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PERSON.
THE COURT: BUT I DON'T FIND HIS INABILITY TO
r 16
17
REMEMBER TODAY TO BE DELIBERATELY EVASIVE ON THAT POINT.
IF IT'S NOT DELIBERATELY EVASIVE, THEN THE PRIOR IS NOT
r 18
19
AN INCONSISTENT STATEMENT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE ALSO SAID IT AT THE
r
l 20 PRELIMINARY HEARING.
r 21
22
THE COURT: TRUE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE ALSO SAID IT AT PRIOR
r 23
24
HEARINGS. SO I THINK THE FACT THAT HE CAN'T REMEMBER
RIGHT NOW IS INDICATIVE THAT HE IS BEING EVASIVE.
r 25
26
HERE'S THE BACKGROUND. OKAY? HE SAID UNDER
OATH AT TWO HEARINGS CROOKS -- THE REASON IT WAS
r 27 IMPORTANT AT THOSE TWO HEARINGS IS BECAUSE CROOKS AT THE
r 28 TIME OF THIS MURDER WAS IN DONOVAN STATE PRISON, AND HE
r
., I
1321
~
I
1 CAME IN AT THE LAST TRIAL AND HE TESTIFIED, "I WASN'T

2 THERE. I WAS IN DONOVAN STATE PRISON." HIS PAROLE
3 OFFICER CAME IN AND TESTIFIED AND VERIFIED THAT HE
4 WASN'T THERE.
5 WHAT I THINK HAPPENED IS THAT THE DISTRICT ~
I
I
I
6 ATTORNEY INVESTIGATORS WENT OVER THIS WITH ANDRES, AND
~
7 NOW HE'S CHANGING HIS STORY TO SAY, "I DON'T REMEMBER IF )
8 YOGI WAS THERE."

9 THE COURT: ANDRES, STEP OUT INTO THE HALLWAY
10 WITH MR. CAMPOS FOR A MOMENT, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, FOR
~
I
11 JUST A MINUTE. J
12 ANDRES HAS LEFT THE COURTROOM. I ASKED HIM TO

13 DO SO BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY COMMENTS TO BE INTERPRETED
14
15
AS DISRESPECTFUL TO HIM.
MY SENSE IS WE'RE DEALING WITH A WITNESS WHO
l
l
,
16 HAS ABOUT THE HORSEPOWER OF A FIVE- TO SEVEN-YEAR-OLD.
17 IN ADDITION TO WHATEVER COGNITIVE AND THOUGHT AND MEMORY
18 ISSUES THAT HE MAY HAVE THAT ALL COUNSEL HAVE ALLUDED J
19 TO, AND INDEED THAT CAUSED US TO HAVE THAT LITTLE 402

i
20 HEARING ABOUT HIS COMPETENCY -- AS I HAVE SEEN HIM THESE l
21 LAST FEW DAYS, IT APPEARS TO ME, ADMITTEDLY AS A LAYMAN,

22 THAT HE IS PATHOLOGICALLY SHOT.
l
23
24
HE FREEZES UP IN THIS WHOLE ROOM FULL OF PEOPLE
THAT HE'S REQUIRED TO TESTIFY IN FRONT OF. THERE ARE
l
25 INSTANCES WHERE HE HAS, I THINK, BEEN WILLFULLY FALSE. l
26 THOSE HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVELY POINTED OUT ON
27 CROSS-EXAMINATION. l
28 BUT I THINK MOST OF WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH IS
l
l
r 1322
~
I
!
1 A WITNESS WHO IS AKIN TO A FIVE- OR SEVEN-YEAR-OLD CHILD
r 2 WHEN IT COMES TO UNDERSTANDING CONCEPTS SUCH AS WHAT WAS
r 3
4
TRUE ON ONE DAY, AND IS THIS TRUE, THEY CAN'T BOTH BE
TRUE, AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
r 5
6
I THINK THAT TO SOME EXTENT BOTH THE COURT'S
DISCRETIONARY POWER TO CONTROL THE EXAMINATION OF
r 7
8
WITNESSES, AS WELL AS EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 352, PUT IN
PLACE SOME LIMITS ON WHAT WE MIGHT CALL TRADITIONAL
r 9 IMPEACHMENT METHODS WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH ADULT
r 10
11
WITNESSES WHO HAVE MORE COMPETENCE.
NOW, THAT'S BY WAY OF BACKDROP FOR WHAT I'M
r 12
13
SAYING AND ALSO BY WAY OF EXPLAINING WHY I HAVE NOT
ALLOWED CERTAIN KINDS OF IMPEACHMENT THAT MIGHT BE
r 14
15
ALLOWED, FOR INSTANCE, IF IT WERE DETECTIVE LAMBERT ON
THE STAND, OR ANY ADULT WITNESS WHO DIDN'T SUFFER
r 16
17
THESE -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY DISABILITIES
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT ANDRES SUFFERS.
r 18 OKAY. NOW, WITH THAT IN MIND, LET'S LOOK AT
r 19
20
THE LAW.
THE LAW SAYS THAT FOR HIM TO -- FOR HIS PRIOR
r 21
22
STATEMENT TO COME IN UNDER SECTION 1235, IT HAS TO BE
INCONSISTENT WITH HIS TESTIMONY AT THE CURRENT HEARING.
r 23
24
NOW, THE BODY OF CASE LAW HAS DEVELOPED THAT
SAYS THAT IF A WITNESS SAYS "I DON'T REMEMBER" AND THE
r 25
26
COURT FINDS THAT THAT IS DELIBERATELY EVASIVE, THEN THE
COURT CAN CONSIDER THAT AS AN INCONSISTENT STATEMENT.
r 27 I WILL AGREE THAT THE DEFENSE HAS MUCH FODDER
r 28 WITH WHICH TO ARGUE THAT ON SOME OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES
r
l
1323
, j
\
1 WHERE ANDRES SAID HE WAS CONFUSED, THAT THAT WAS SIMPLY

2 THE PORT IN WHICH HE WAS TAKING REFUGE IN THE STORM OF l
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION. ~
I
J
4 HOWEVER, ON THE QUESTION OF YOGI OR CROOKS
5 BEING THERE, I DON'T THINK HE WAS DELIBERATELY EVASIVE.
6 AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONSPIRACY THEORY WITH RESPECT TO
l
7
8
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE INVESTIGATOR, BUT I DON'T
THINK THIS YOUNG MAN IS SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH TO BE ABLE
l
9 TO REMEMBER THAT AND PLAY THAT OUT, EVEN IF I FOUND THAT l j
10 IT HAPPENED.
11 I DON'T FIND THAT IT HAPPENED. I DON'T FIND l
12 THAT HE WAS COACHED TO SAY "YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS
13 YOGI OR CROOKS THAT WAS THERE." HE DIDN'T SAY CROOKS l
14
15
WAS THERE. HE DIDN'T SAY THAT. HE SAID, "I DON'T KNOW
IF IT WAS CROOKS OR YOGI THAT WAS THERE," IN EFFECT.
l
l
16
17
18
I'M FINDING, AS A MATTER OF FACT,
NOTWITHSTANDING YOUR ELOQUENT ARGUMENT, THAT HE'S NOT
DOING THAT TO BE DELIBERATELY EVASIVE. THAT BEING THE
, _J
19 CASE, HIS PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS DON'T COME IN.

20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE, I GUESS, l
21 COUNTERARGUMENT WOULD BE THAT IF HE SAYS, "I DON'T
22 REMEMBER IF YOGI WAS THERE," THEN I THINK THAT IS A
l
23
24
FAILURE OF MEMORY.
THE COURT:
IF HE SAYS IN ONE SENTENCE
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HIS TESTIMONY
l
25 AT TRIAL. HIS TESTIMONY AT TRIAL IS WHAT CONTROLS. THE l
26 QUESTION IS: IS HE BEING DELIBERATELY EVASIVE HERE IN
27 TRIAL TODAY OR YESTERDAY WHEN HE SAID "I DON'T l
28 REMEMBER"?
l
l
r 1324
r
!
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, YOUR HONOR,
r 2
3
RESPECTFULLY, I DON'T THINK IT GETS TO THAT POINT
BECAUSE I THINK IT IS FACTUALLY INCONSISTENT.
r 4 THE QUESTION IS, "ARE YOU CERTAIN HE WAS
r 5
6
THERE?" THE ANSWER IS, "YES."
cERTAIN HE WAS THERE.
NOW HE'S SAYING HE'S NOT
r
I
I
7 THE COURT: OKAY.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO THAT IS TWO THINGS THAT
r' 9 ARE FACTUALLY INCONSISTENT.
!
r 10
11 WILL STAND.
THE COURT: NOPE, NOPE.
THANK YOU.
THE ORIGINAL RULING
LET'S HAVE ANDRES BROUGHT BACK
r 12
13
IN HERE.
HI ANDRES. THANK YOU.
r 14
15
MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
r 16
17
r 18 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
r
19 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL JURORS ARE
20 PRESENT. MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY PROCEED.
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
r 23
24
Q. OKAY, ANDRES. WELCOME BACK.
TO TALK ABOUT ANY INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS FROM HERE ON
WE'RE NOT GOING
r 25 OUT. OKAY? WE'RE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT YOUR
r 26
27
TESTIMONY IN THE PAST OR STATEMENTS YOU MADE TO THE
OFFICERS. JUST WHAT YOU KNOW. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
r 28 A. YES.
r
~
\
l
1325
2
Q. THE NIGHT OF THE INCIDENT YOU HAD BEEN
DRINKING, RIGHT?
, J
3 A. RIGHT.
4
5
Q.
A.
YOU WERE DRINKING A LOT, RIGHT?
WELL, IF YOU SAY SO, YES. ,
6
8 LOT.
Q.
A.
WHAT DO YOU SAY?
WELL, FOR ME, JUST FOUR OR FIVE BEERS IS NOT A , j
j
!
9 Q. THEY WEREN'T BEERS, THOUGH. THEY WERE MALT

10 LIQUOR, RIGHT?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. MALT LIQUOR IS STRONGER THAN BEER, RIGHT?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU HAD FOUR OR FIVE OF THEM?
YES.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
WERE THEY 40 OUNCES?
40 OUNCES.
22 OUNCES?
l
~
18 Q. YOU HAD FOUR 40 OUNCES? I
J
19 A. YES.
20 Q. OVER A PERIOD OF WHAT TIME? l
21 A. ABOUT, LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE THREE HOURS.
22 Q. YOU HAD FOUR 40-0UNCE DRINKS IN THREE HOURS?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW OLD WERE YOU AT THE TIME?
l
25 A. WHAT TIME? l
26 Q. AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING.
27 A. I WAS -- l
28 Q. IT WAS THREE YEARS AGO. HOW OLD WERE YOU?
l
l
r 1326
rI
1 A. PROBABLY LIKE 13.
r 2 Q. BECAUSE YOU'RE 16 NOW, RIGHT?
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. OKAY. THAT'S NOT ALL YOU DID, THOUGH. YOU
r 5
6
ALSO SMOKED SOME WEED, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
rm 7 Q. HOW MUCH WEED DID YOU SMOKE?
l
8 A. ABOUT FOUR GRAMS.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
FOUR GRAMS?
YES.
r 11 Q. DID YOU ROLL IT INTO A BLUNT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
DIDN'T YOU SAY AT THE LAST HEARING THAT YOU
r 14
15
ROLLED IT INTO A BLUNT, ANDRES?
A. I ROLLED IT INTO BLUNTS.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
IN TWO BLUNTS?
NOT TWO BLUNTS, INTO DIFFERENT BLUNTS.
r 18 Q. SO YOU SMOKED BLUNTS?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY DID YOU SMOKE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THREE BLUNTS.
DID YOU SHARE OR SMOKE ALONE?
r 23
24
A.
SHARED.
WELL, I SMOKED ONE ALONE AND THE OTHER TWO I
r 25 Q. USING THE SHOOTING AS A POINT OF REFERENCE
r 26
27
DO YOU KNOW WHAT "POINT OF REFERENCE" MEANS?
A. NO.
r 28 Q. IT MEANS A POINT IN TIME WHERE YOU MEASURE
r
1327
, ]
1 ANOTHER POINT IN TIME BY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

l
2 THE COURT: HE'S GOING TO ASK YOU IF SOMETHING l
3 WAS BEFORE OR AFTER THE SHOOTING. OKAY?
6 Q. HOW LONG BEFORE THE SHOOTING DID YOU SMOKE
l
7 THESE BLUNTS?
8 A. WELL, THE FIRST BLUNT WAS AROUND LIKE -- IT WAS
9 BEFORE I GOT THERE, THE FIRST BLUNT I SMOKED.
10
11
Q. OKAY.
TO THE PARK?
THEN YOU SMOKED SOME MORE WHEN YOU GOT ,
12 A. YES.
13 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU AT THE PARK FOR? l
A.
14
15 Q.
FOR LIKE -- MAYBE LIKE AN HOUR, TWO HOURS.
COUPLE HOURS?
l
16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
AND SO IF YOU SMOKED THREE BLUNTS TOTAL, THAT
l
18 MEANS YOU SMOKED ONE BEFORE YOU GOT THERE AND TWO AFTER l
19 YOU GOT THERE.
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. THOSE WERE THE TWO THAT YOU SHARED?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHO DID YOU SHARE THEM WITH?
WITH KNUCKLES AND SOME OTHER GUYS.
l
25 Q. WHO? WHO WERE THEY? l
26 A. WELL, THE OTHER GUYS, I DIDN'T -- I HAVEN'T
27 EVEN MET THEM. I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES. l
28 Q. THEY'RE NOT ON THE LIST?
l
l
r 1328
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. OKAY. HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE AT THE PARK?
r 3
4
A.
PEOPLE.
WELL, I'M NOT -- I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH
r 5
6
Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ESTIMATE?
THE COURT: I THINK WE NEED A SPECIFICATION AS
r 7
8
TO TIME. I MEAN THERE WAS A SHOOTING AND THERE WAS A
PERIOD OF TIME THAT PRECEDED THE SHOOTING.
r 9
10
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OKAY.
TO WHAT TIME FRAME DOES YOUR
r 11 QUESTION AS TO HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE THERE PERTAIN,
r 12
13
PLEASE?
r 14
15
Q. AROUND THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING, LET'S SAY A
HALF HOUR BEFORE, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE THERE?
r 16
17 20.
A. WELL, THAT I REMEMBER, THERE WERE LIKE 15 OR
r 18 Q. 20? COULD IT HAVE BEEN MORE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
MAYBE.
OKAY. AND SO WHEN YOU DRINK BEER, HOW DOES IT
r 21
22
MAKE YOU FEEL?
A. JUST MAKES YOU ALL -- GETS YOU KIND OF JUST
r 23
24
GETS YOU FADED.
BUZZED.
GETS YOU DRUNK. GETS YOU KIND OF
r 25 Q. OKAY. AND YOU WERE DRUNK?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
WELL, YES.
OKAY. AND SMOKING MARIJUANA, YOU'VE DONE THAT
r 28 BEFORE, RIGHT?
r
l I
1329
l
1 A. YES.
,I
2
3
Q.
SHOT.
YOU'VE DONE IT PRIOR TO THE NIGHT MOISES WAS
,
4
5
THE COURT: "PRIOR" MEANS BEFORE. , J
7
THE WITNESS:
YES.
, 1
J
8 Q. HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?
~
9 A. THE WEED? j
10 Q. YEAH, THE WEED.
11 A. COMFORTABLE, RELAXED. l
12 Q. IT AFFECTS YOUR VISION, DOES IT NOT?
13 A. WELL, NOT MINE. l
14
15
Q. NO? YOU CAN SMOKE THREE BLUNTS AND SEE JUST AS
WELL AS IF YOU HADN'T SMOKED ANYTHING?
l
16 A. WHAT DID YOU SAY?
l
17 Q. YOUR VISION IS JUST AS GOOD AFTER SMOKING THREE
18 BLUNTS AS IT IS IF YOU DIDN'T SMOKE ANY? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND THE BEER TOO, DOES THAT AFFECT YOUR VISION? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. SO YOU CAN SEE JUST AS WELL AFTER DRINKING FOUR
l
23
24
40-0UNCE BEERS?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. SO WHEN YOU MIX THE TWO DRUGS TOGETHER, THE l
26 BEER AND THE WEED, WHEN THEY'RE MIXED, DOES THAT AFFECT
27 YOUR VISION? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 1330
r 1 Q. SO AFTER YOU DRINK FOUR BEERS AND SMOKE THREE
r 2 BLUNTS, YOU CAN SEE JUST AS WELL AS IF YOU DIDN'T DO ANY
r 3
4
OF THAT?
A. YES.
r 5
6
Q. SO THAT NIGHT AFTER YOU DID ALL THAT, YOU WERE
SEEING JUST AS WELL AS IF YOU HADN'T?
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
ASKED AND ANSWERED.
r 9
10
Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT NIGHT AND WHAT YOU SAW.

r 11 COUNSEL, DO YOU HAVE THE PHOTOS THAT YOU SHOWED
r 12
13
HIM?
MR. TROCHA: UP THERE.
r 14
15 SCREEN.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CAN YOU PUT THEM ON THE
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA:
JUST ONE SECOND.
r 18 Q. SO YOU SAID AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING, YOU
r 19
20
WERE TAKING A PISS, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU WERE TAKING A PISS -- IF WE'RE
LOOKING AT PROSECUTION 245, YOU'RE FACING THE OTHER
r 23
24
DIRECTION, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 25 Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU'RE FACING THE OTHER DIRECTION,

THAT'S WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS, RIGHT?
r
26
27 A. RIGHT.
r 28 Q. AND WHEN YOU TURN AROUND, YOU LOOK OVER YOUR
r
l
1331
, J
1 SHOULDER, RIGHT?
2 A. RIGHT. l
3 Q. YOU LOOK OVER WHAT WOULD BE THIS SHOULDER,
l
4
5
6
RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, I'M TAPPING
,
7 MY LEFT SHOULDER. l J
8 THE COURT: YES.

10 Q. SO YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS; YOU TURNED AROUND,
11 RIGHT? l
12 A. RIGHT.
13 Q. DID YOU TURN YOUR WHOLE BODY AROUND OR JUST l
14
15
YOUR HEAD?
A. JUST MY HEAD.
l
16 Q. JUST YOUR HEAD?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND THEN YOU SEE THIS? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. EXHIBIT 245, RIGHT? l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. EXCEPT THIS IS TAKEN DURING THE DAY.
l
23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHEN YOU TURNED OVER YOUR SHOULDER, IT WAS DARK
l
25 OUT, RIGHT? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. IT WAS 9:20 AT NIGHT IN SEPTEMBER, RIGHT? l
28 A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TIME.
l
l
rn
I
1332
r 1 Q. SO YOU HEAR THE SHOTS, YOU TURN AROUND, YOU
r 2
3
LOOK AND THEN YOU RUN, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 4 Q. AND YOU RUN BEFORE THE SHOTS END, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BEFORE?
DID YOU START RUNNING BEFORE THE SHOTS WERE
r 7
8
DONE?
A. CAN YOU, LIKE, EXPLAIN IT?
r 9
10
Q. SURE. WHEN YOU STARTED RUNNING, WERE THE SHOTS
STILL HAPPENING OR WERE THEY OVER WITH, NOT HAPPENING
r 11 ANYMORE?
r 12
13
A.
DIDN'T
WELL, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN? I JUST
r 14
15
Q. WHEN YOU STARTED RUNNING, ANDRES, WERE THERE
STILL SHOTS GOING ON?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. SO WHEN YOU TURN AROUND, THE SHOTS --
r 18 YOU TURN AROUND BECAUSE OF THE SHOTS, AND YOU START
r 19
20
RUNNING AND THE SHOTS ARE STILL GOING ON, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. AND THEN YOU RUN DOWN THE ALLEY AND THROUGH THE
HOUSES, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A. RIGHT. SO YOUR GLANCE AT 245 AT NIGHT, CAN YOU
GIVE US AN ESTIMATE AS TO TIME? PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF
r 25
26
YOU NEED HELP UNDERSTANDING THAT QUESTION.
A. I NEED HELP.
r 27 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A SECOND IS?
r 28 A. NO.
r
1333
l
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A MINUTE IS?
2 A. WELL, A SECOND, YES, I KNOW A SECOND. l
3 Q. HOW MANY SECONDS ARE IN A MINUTE?
4 A. 60. l
5 Q. 60 SECONDS? CAN YOU COUNT AND ESTIMATE A
l
6
7
SECOND .FOR US?
REPRESENTS A SECOND?
CAN YOU COUNT TO 10 AND EACH ONE
,
8
9
A.
Q.
NO.
IF I DID, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE IT AS
, J
10 A SECOND OR NOT?
11 A. MAYBE. l
12 Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT THIS: ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR
13 FIVE. WERE THOSE SECONDS? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
YEAH? HOW MANY SECONDS DID YOU LOOK FOR?
l
16 A. ME?
l
17 Q. YEAH.
18 A. WHEN I LOOKED BACK? l
19 Q. WHEN YOU LOOKED OVER YOUR SHOULDER.
20 A. ABOUT ONE OR TWO. l
21 Q. AND THEN YOU STARTED RUNNING?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
OKAY. WHAT WAS THE SHOOTER WEARING?
I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT COLOR HIS CLOTHES
l
25 WAS. l
26 Q. WHAT DID HIS HAIR LOOK LIKE?
27 A. HIS HAIR? l
28 Q. YEAH.
l
l
r 1334
r 1 A. WHAT YOU MEAN "HIS HAIR"?
r 2
3 ANDRES?
Q. YOU HAVE HAIR ON THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD, RIGHT,
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR HAIR? IS IT
f!1R
t 4 SLICKED BACK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
BLACK HAIR?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
THE SHOOTER, WHAT DOES HIS HAIR LOOK LIKE?
r 9 A. LOOKS -- WELL, THAT I SEEN, I REMEMBER HE HAD A
r 10
11
HAT.
Q. HE HAD A HAT ON?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT ABOUT HIS FACIAL HAIR?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
HIS WHAT?
FACIAL HAIR. BEARD, MUSTACHE, ANYTHING?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO, NO.
HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY FACIAL HAIR?
r 18 A. WELL, THAT I SEEN ON HIS FACE, NO.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
NO FACIAL HAIR?
NO.
r 21
22
Q. OKAY. ANDRES, ONE LAST LINE OF QUESTIONING.
IN THE PAST YOU'VE DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS SLOW,
r 23
24
RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 25
26
Q. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE TO YOU, ANDRES, BUT
THAT'S SOMETHING YOU SAID, RIGHT?
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. BUT YOU KNOW HOW TO SPELL CHRISTIAN. YOU
r
l
1335
, 1
1 SPELLED IT FOR US EARLIER.
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. YOU KNOW HOW TO ADD AND SUBTRACT.
4 A. WELL, SOME NUMBERS. l
5 Q. WHAT IS 5 PLUS 5?
6 A. 10.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT'S 25 PLUS 25?
50.
l
9 Q. WHAT'S 100 PLUS 100? l
10 A. PLUS 100?
11 Q. UH-HUH. l
12 A. 200.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO MULTIPLY AND DIVIDE? l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU NEVER LEARNED THAT?
l
16 A. NO.
l
17 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?
18 A. SOME WORDS. l
19 Q. DO YOU READ A LOT?
20 A. DO I WHAT? l
21 Q. DO YOU READ A LOT?
22 A. NO.
l
23
24
Q. WHEN YOU'RE DRIVING ON THE ROAD, CAN YOU
UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ROAD SIGNS SAY?
l
25 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WHAT ROAD? l
26 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE ON A HIGHWAY AND THE
27 SIGN SAYS EXIT 25, SORRENTO VALLEY, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO l
28 READ THAT?
l
l
r 1336
r 1 A. MAYBE.
r 2
3
Q. DO YOU GO TO SCHOOL?
A.
r
L
4 Q.
NO.
AND YOU LIVE IN MEXICO, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
THEY DON'T -- NOBODY IS MAKING YOU GO TO SCHOOL
r 7
8
RIGHT NOW?
A. NO.
r 9 Q. DO YOU WORK?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CONSTRUCTION.
WHAT KIND OF CONSTRUCTION?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
BUILDING HOUSES.
DO YOU USE A HAMMER AND NAILS?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
USE A SAW?
r 18 A. A WHAT?
r 19 Q. A SAW. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A SAW IS?

20 A. NO.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DO YOU EVER CUT WOOD?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT DO YOU USE TO CUT WOOD?
SOME MACHINE.
r 25 Q. A MACHINE?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
OKAY. AND ARE YOU SUPERVISED WHEN YOU DO THIS
r 28 OR DO YOU SOMETIMES DO IT ALONE?
r
l
1337
, j
1 A. I DO IT WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

2 Q. DO YOU WEAR SAFETY GLASSES? l
3 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? SAFETY GLASSES?
4 Q. YEAH.
5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
ARE YOU THE ONE WHO DECIDED TO WEAR THOSE OR
l
7
8
DID SOMEBODY ELSE TELL YOU TO?
A. WELL, I JUST KNEW THAT WORKING, THERE IS
l
9 JUST -- PEOPLE WEAR THEM, SO I JUST BOUGHT THEM. l
10 Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU LEARN TO READ, WHEN YOU
11 WERE, WHAT, IN 1ST OR 2ND GRADE? l
12 A. I GUESS, YES.
13 Q. WERE YOU IN ANY SPECIAL NEEDS CLASSES BACK l
14
15
THEN?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. UNTIL WHEN?
l
17 A. UNTIL 6TH GRADE.
18 Q. FROM 1ST UNTIL 6TH GRADE? l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. OKAY. ANDRES, IF SOMEBODY TELLS YOU SOMETHING l
21 OR INSINUATES THAT SOMETHING IS TRUE TO YOU, DO YOU HAVE
22 A HARD TIME TELLING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT'S
l
23
24
INSINUATED TO YOU, WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING -- LET ME
REPHRASE. LET ME BACK UP.
l
25 IF SOMEBODY TELLS YOU SOMETHING THAT THEY THINK l
26 IS TRUE, DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME TELLING THE DIFFERENCE
27 BETWEEN WHETHER THAT THING IS ACTUALLY TRUE OR WHETHER l
28 IT WAS JUST TOLD TO YOU?
l
l
r 1338
r 1 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. VAGUE AND RELEVANCE.
r 2 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED AS VAGUE.
r BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
3
4 Q. ANDRES, IF YOU'RE TOLD SOMETHING, ANYTHING, DO
r 5
6
YOU HAVE A HARD TIME TELLING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
WHETHER YOU -- THIS IS DIFFICULT, YOUR HONOR.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
I UNDERSTAND.
r 9 Q. ANDRES, DO YOU WATCH MOVIES?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU SOMETIMES -- DO YOU WATCH TELEVISION AS
r 12
13
WELL?
A. NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
JUST MOVIES?
YES.
r 16
17
Q. DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME TELLING THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENS THAT YOU WATCH ON MOVIES AND WHAT
r 18 HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE?
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
RELEVANCE.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
NO.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
r 23
24
THE COURT:
TRY AGAIN.
r 25 Q. DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME TELLING THE DIFFERENCE
r 26
27
BETWEEN WHAT YOU SEE IN A MOVIE AND WHAT HAPPENS IN REAL
LIFE?
r 28 A. WHAT YOU MEAN?
r
1339
l
l
1 Q. I MEAN, IF YOU WATCH A MOVIE, WILL YOU
2 SOMETIMES -- AFTER A TIME GOES BY, WILL YOU SOMETIMES l
3 THINK THAT IT MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY HAPPENED?
4 A. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE? l
5 Q. YEAH.
6 A. NO.
l
7
8
Q. YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REALITY AND
WHAT'S NOT REALITY?
l
9 THE COURT: DO YOU KNOW WHAT "REALITY" IS? l
10 THE WITNESS: NO.
12 Q. CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT'S
13 REAL -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT REAL IS? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT FAKE IS?
l
16 A. YES.
l
17 Q. IF SOMEBODY TELLS YOU SOMETHING IS TRUE AND
18 THEN SOME TIME GOES BY, ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE TROUBLE l
19 TELLING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHETHER IT'S ACTUALLY
20 TRUE OR WHETHER YOU WERE JUST TOLD THAT IT WAS TRUE? l
21 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. VAGUE. RELEVANCE.
l
23
24
THE WITNESS:
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
I DON'T GET THE QUESTION.
NOTHING FURTHER.
l
25 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK l
26 YOU.
27 MR. TROCHA, REDIRECT? l
l
l
r 1340
r 1
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. ANDRES, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MOVIE WHERE
SPEEDY KILLED SMOKEY?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
THAT'S SOMETHING YOU SAW HAPPEN IN FRONT OF
r 7
8
YOU, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR YOU TO LOOK AT
r 10
11
SOMEBODY AND KNOW WHO THAT PERSON IS?
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHEN YOU SAW MY FACE, DID YOU KNOW WHO I WAS?
YES.
r 14
15 WAS?
Q. WHEN YOU SAW SPEEDY'S FACE, DID YOU KNOW WHO HE
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU TOLD US, I THINK MAYBE IT WAS YESTERDAY OR
r 18
19
TODAY, I CAN'T REMEMBER, THAT SOMETIMES WHILE YOU MIGHT
MIX UP NAMES, YOU DON'T MIX UP FACES.
i
l 20 A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. THE PERSON WHO IS IN COURT THAT YOU IDENTIFIED
AS SPEEDY, IS THAT SPEEDY?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU HAVE A BROTHER?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
HOW MANY BROTHERS DO YOU HAVE?
TWO.
r 28 Q. DO YOU HAVE A BROTHER WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE
r
1341
l
l
1 CITY HEIGHTS JUNIORS?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. WHAT'S HIS NAME?
4 A. LITTLE DEAD MAN. l
Q. SO YOUR BROTHER IS LITTLE DEAD MAN?
5
6 A. YES.
l
7
8
Q. DID YOU EVER TELL SOMEBODY YOU WERE A MEMBER OF
ONE OF SHELLTOWN'S RIVALS?
l
10 Q. SURE. LOGAN HEIGHTS IS ONE OF SHELLTOWN'S
11 RIVALS; IS THAT RIGHT? l
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. YOU WERE LIVING IN SHELLTOWN BEFORE SMOKEY WAS l
14
15
KILLED; IS THAT RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
l
16
17
Q. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO SOMEBODY FROM LOGAN
l
HEIGHTS WHO WAS LIVING IN SHELLTOWN?
18 A. PROBABLY SHOT. l
19 Q. DO YOU WANT TO GET SHOT?
20 A. NO. l
21 Q. YOU TOLD US ALSO YESTERDAY THAT THERE WERE
22 GIRLS THERE IN THE PARK THE DAY SMOKEY WAS SHOT. DO YOU
l
23
24
REMEMBER THAT?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. SOME OF THEIR NAMES WERE TEMPER AND LIL ONE. l
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. WERE THERE OTHER GIRLS YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE NAME l
28 OF?
l
l
r 1342
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. YOU ALSO TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT WHEN YOU SAW
r
3 SPEEDY WITH A GIRL, YOU WERE UNSURE IF IT WAS HIS
4 GIRLFRIEND OR HIS WIFE; DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW THE NAME OF THE GIRL SPEEDY WAS
r 7
8
WITH?
A. NO.
r 9 Q. WHY DO YOU THINK IT WAS HIS GIRLFRIEND OR HIS
r 10
11
WIFE?
A. BECAUSE THEY WERE TALKING AND THEY WERE THE
r 12
13
ONLY ONES TALKING TO EACH OTHER.
Q. SO YOU JUST GUESSED IT MIGHT BE HIS GIRLFRIEND
r 14
15
OR WIFE?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
CHUBS.
WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT LIL SPANKY AND LIL
r 18 ARE THESE PEOPLE SOMETIMES ALSO CALLED JUST
r 19
20
SPANKY AND JUST CHUBS?
A. YES.
r 21
22
Q. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LIL SPANKY OR BIG
SPANKY, DOES IT HELP TO SEE THE FACE OF THE PERSON WE'RE
r 23
24
TALKING ABOUT TO POINT OUT THE DIFFERENCES?
A. YES.
r 25
26
MR. TROCHA:
DON'T HAVE MUCH.

JUST ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR. I
r 28 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE
r
1343
l
l
1 NOTHING FURTHER.
2 THE COURT: FURTHER CROSS? 1
4 THE COURT: WITHIN THE SCOPE OF REDIRECT. l
5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. THANK YOU.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
l
7 BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 1 J
8 Q. ANDRES, YOU SAID YOU SOMETIMES MIX UP NAMES
9 BUT YOU NEVER MIX UP A FACE; IS THAT RIGHT? l

10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. ON 245, THE SHOOTER -- HE'S NOT FACING TOWARDS l
12 YOU, IS HE?
13 A. NO.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
HE'S FACING, WHAT, LIKE THIS?
CORRECT.
l
16 Q. SO HE'S FACING AT A LITTLE BIT -- LET THE
l
17 RECORD REFLECT I'M FACING AT A MORE THAN 90-DEGREE ANGLE
18 AWAY FROM THE WITNESS. l

19 THE COURT: SO REFLECT.
21 Q. ANDRES, SPEAKING OF FACES, IN YOUR INITIAL
22 INTERVIEW WITH DETECTIVE LAMBERT, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING

l
23 ABOUT SPEEDY, HE NEVER SHOWED YOU A PICTURE OF SPEEDY, 1 J
24 DID HE?
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. NEVER DID. AND WHEN YOU HAD TO -- BETWEEN THAT
27 INTERVIEW AND THE NEXT TIME YOU SAW SPEEDY, IT WAS IN l

28 COURT, RIGHT?
l
l
r 1344
r 1 A. SAY AGAIN.
r 2 Q. YOU MENTIONED SPEEDY IN YOUR INTERVIEW WITH
r 3
4
DETECTIVE LAMBERT AND YOU WEREN'T SHOWN A PICTURE,
RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
AND YOU WENT TO JUVENILE HALL AFTER THAT
r 7
8
INTERVIEW FOR, WHAT, A FEW MONTHS?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
RIGHT?
AND THEN WHEN YOU GOT OUT, YOU WENT TO MEXICO,
r 11 A. RIGHT.
r 12
13
Q. AND YOU DIDN'T SEE SPEEDY. YOU NEVER SAW A
PICTURE OF HIM THAT DAY, AND YOU NEVER SAW HIM UP UNTIL
r 14
15
THE HEARING YOU TESTIFIED AT A YEAR AGO, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 16
17
Q. AND THAT WAS WHEN YOU FIRST IDENTIFIED THE
PERSON YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THAT INTERVIEW WITH
r 18 DETECTIVE LAMBERT AS SPEEDY, RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
THAT'S WHEN YOU FIRST SAID, "YEAH, THAT'S THE
r 21
22
SPEEDY WHO I WAS TALKING ABOUT," RIGHT, AT THAT
HEARING?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND DURING THAT HEARING, MUCH LIKE TODAY, HE
r 25
26
WAS SITTING AT DEFENSE TABLE, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 27 Q. HE WAS SITTING NEXT TO ME. AND I WAS WEARING A
r 28 VERY NICE SUIT, WASN'T I?
r
1345
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND SPEEDY WAS WEARING A JAIL JUMPSUIT, RIGHT? l
3 A. RIGHT.
4 Q. HE HAD HANDCUFFS ON, RIGHT? l
5 A. RIGHT.
l j
6 Q. WHO ELSE IN THE COURT WAS WEARING A JAIL

7
8
JUMPSUIT WHEN YOU IDENTIFIED HIM?
A. NO ONE ELSE THAT I SEEN.
l
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER. l
10 MR. TROCHA: JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS, YOUR
11 HONOR. THANK YOU. l
13 BY MR. TROCHA: l
14
15
Q.
38TH STREET?
WHO ELSE IN COURT THAT DAY JUMPED YOU INTO
l
16 A. WHAT YOU MEAN?
l
17 Q. WELL, THE DAY YOU CAME TO COURT, WAS THERE A
18 PERSON THERE IN COURT WHO JUMPED YOU INTO 38TH STREET? l
19 A. WELL, WHAT DATE?
20 Q. AS WE SIT HERE TODAY, DO YOU SEE SOMEBODY IN l
21 COURT WHO JUMPED YOU INTO 38TH STREET?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHO?
SPEEDY.
l
25 Q. ANYBODY ELSE? l
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WE HAD THIS LIST OF NAMES BEHIND YOU, DEFENSE l
28 SS. DO YOU SEE THAT LIST?
l
l
r 1346
r 1 WE TALKED ABOUT RESPECT YESTERDAY. WHO IS THE
r 2 MOST RESPECTED PERSON IN 38TH STREET ON THAT LIST?
r
3 A. SPEEDY.
4 Q. IS HE AN OG?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IS YOGI AN OG?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
IS A GUY NAMED CROOKS AN OG?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
OF THOSE PEOPLE, WHO HAS THE MOST RESPECT OUT

r 11 OF SPEEDY, CROOKS AND YOGI?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
SPEEDY.
IS SPEEDY THE BOSS OF 38TH STREET?
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
BEYOND THE SCOPE.
FOUNDATION.
SUSTAINED.
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WOULD YOU REMEMBER THE PERSON WHO HAS THE MOST
r 18 RESPECT AT ANY GIVEN 38TH STREET FUNCTION?
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
BEYOND THE SCOPE.

OBJECTION. FOUNDATION.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
YES.
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. IS THAT PERSON THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON THERE?
r 25 A. WHAT YOU MEAN "THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON"?
r 26
27
Q. SURE. IF YOU'RE THE MOST RESPECTED, ARE YOU
ALSO THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE GANG?
r 28 A. WELL, YES.
r
1347
l
l
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING. l
3 THE COURT: MAY ANDRES BE EXCUSED?
4 MR. TROCHA: YES. l
6 THE COURT: ANDRES, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
l
7
8
COURT. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
CAMPOS, AND YOU ARE EXCUSED.
PLEASE GO WITH INVESTIGATOR
GOOD DAY TO YOU.
l
9 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. l
11 WELL, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I HAD A COUPLE OF l
12 MISSIONS TODAY, AND I THINK I ACCOMPLISHED ONE AND DID
13 NOT ACCOMPLISH THE OTHER. THE FIRST MISSION I HAD IS l
14
15
THAT WE WOULD -- CONSISTENT WITH DUE PROCESS AND RIGHT
TO CONFRONT AND CROSS-EXAMINE -- COMPLETE THE TESTIMONY
l
16 OF ANDRES BEFORE DAY'S END. THAT MISSION WAS
l
17 ACCOMPLISHED.
18 THE OTHER MISSION I HAD WAS FOR US NOT TO HAVE l
19 IDLE TIME TODAY, AND THAT MISSION I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO
20 ACCOMPLISH. WE'RE GOING TO RECESS TODAY FOR THE l
21 WEEKEND. I'LL ASK THAT YOU RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM ON
22 MONDAY, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, APRIL 11TH.
l
23
24
I HAVE THAT BRIEF SENTENCING MATTER.
TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF OPTIMISM, EVEN IF IT PUTS THE
I'M GOING
1
25 BURDEN ON YOU GOOD PEOPLE. LET'S PLAN ON BEING HERE l
26 9:15 MONDAY MORNING TO RECONVENE IN THIS CASE.
27 MIGHT I ASK BEFORE YOU LEAVE RIGHT NOW TO PASS l
28 ANY TRANSCRIPTS TO YOUR RIGHT AND I'LL HAVE DEPUTY TRAPP
l
l
r 1348
r 1 PICK THOSE UP. PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON
r 2 THE CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
r
r 5
6
r 7
8
ON BEHALF OF BOTH SIDES AND THE COURT, I THANK
YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS
r 9
10
MATTER. SEE YOU MONDAY MORNING AT 9:15 THANK YOU.
{THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN
r 11 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
r 12
13
ADDRESSING COUNSEL, THAT MONDAY MORNING MATTER WILL BE
r 14
15
BRIEF. LEAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT ON COUNSEL TABLE.
PUSH IT TO THE FRONT.
JUST
r 16
17
MR. TROCHA, TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE EITHER ABLE
TO HANDLE THAT FOR THE PEOPLE OR GET THE ASSIGNED DEPUTY
r 18 HERE, THAT WOULD BE APPRECIATED.
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
I WILL BE HERE.
AND IS THERE ANYTHING ANYBODY NEEDS
r 21
22
TO ADDRESS?
MR. TROCHA: JUST THE BATTING ORDER FOR MONDAY.
r 23
24
WE EXPECT TANYA DELANEY, JOE HOWIE, SIMONE LOPEZ, GREG
PINARELLI, AND EITHER DETECTIVE LAMBERT OR MARTHA GASCA
r 25
26
WILL ALSO BEGIN THAT DAY.
THE COURT: WAS MONDAY A DAY WE WERE GOING TO
r 27 TAKE A DEFENSE WITNESS OUT OF ORDER?
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: TUESDAY. I HAVE A BUNCH OF
r
1349
l
l
1 WITNESSES COMING ON TUESDAY. THEY'RE ALL ORDERED BACK.
2 ARE WE NOT GOING TO GET TO THEM ON TUESDAY? l
3 MR. TROCHA: MY BEST GUESS IS WE WILL BE
4 WRAPPING UP ON TUESDAY. I CAN'T GIVE YOU A TIME, l
5
6
THOUGH.
THE COURT: IT DEPENDS ON, I WOULD SUSPECT,
l
7
8
DETECTIVE GASCA'S EXAMINATION.
MR. TROCHA: YES.
l
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THEY'RE ALL ORDERED BACK FOR l
10 TUESDAY. IS IT SAFE IF I CALL THEM AND TELL THEM TO
11 COME ON WEDNESDAY? I'D NOTE THAT THEY'RE ALREADY l
12 ORDERED BACK.
13 THE COURT: YES. GOOD QUESTION. IT IS SAFE IN l
14
15
TERMS OF AM I GOING TO BE ANNOYED IF WE END UP BREAKING
EARLY TUESDAY AFTERNOON BECAUSE YOUR WITNESSES WEREN'T
l
16 HERE? IF YOU HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THEIR APPEARANCE SUCH
l
17 THAT YOU WANT THEM ORDERED BACK -- AS TO ANY OF THOSE
18 WITNESSES, I LEAVE THAT UP TO YOU. BUT I'M HAPPY TO l
19 MAKE IT CLEAR TO THEM THEY NEED TO BE BACK THE NEXT DAY.
20 THE LAW SAYS IF THEY ARE UNDER SUBPOENA OR l
21 COURT ORDER AND THAT ORDER REQUIRES THEIR PRESENCE AT A
22 CERTAIN TIME AND THEY MAKE AN AGREEMENT WITH THE PERSON
l
23
24
WHO ISSUES THE SUBPOENA OR WHO OBTAINED THE ORDER THAT
IT CAN BE A DIFFERENT TIME, THEN THE COURT STILL HAS
l
25 JURISDICTION TO ISSUE THAT WARRANT IF THAT AGREEMENT WAS l
26 COMMUNICATED TO THE WITNESS, AND THEN YOU TELL ME ABOUT
27 IT. l
28 SO I WOULD SAY NO NEED TO BRING THEM IN. TELL
l
l
r 1350
r 1
r
THEM WEDNESDAY IS FINE. HOWEVER, I WILL ADD TO THAT THE
2 CAVEAT THAT IF THERE IS SOMEBODY WHERE YOU THINK THERE
r 3
4
MIGHT BE A PROBLEM WITH THAT PERSON COMING BACK BASED ON
SUCH AN AGREEMENT, FEEL FREE TO HAVE THAT PERSON COME IN
r 5
6
AND I'LL ORDER THEM BACK AND IMPRESS UPON HIM OR HER THE
SERIOUSNESS OF HIS BEING HERE.
r 7
8
EVEN ABSENT THAT, THOUGH, IF THE WITNESS FAILS
TO APPEAR PURSUANT TO YOUR AGREEMENT, YOU HAVE LEGAL
r 9
10
GROUNDS TO ASK FOR THE WARRANT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY.
r 11 THE COURT: SO IF YOU WANT TO TELL THEM
r 12
13
WEDNESDAY MORNING, THAT'S FINE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST BASED ON WHAT COUNSEL
r 14
15
SAID, IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET TO THEM UNTIL
WEDNESDAY.
r 16
17 TUESDAY.
MR. TROCHA: WE'RE GOING TO GO AT LEAST HALF OF
SO THAT'S A MINIMUM, GIVEN THE INDIVIDUALS WE
r 18 HAVE. WE ALSO HAVE THE MEDICAL EXAMINER ON MONDAY AS
r 19
20
WELL, SO WE'RE GOING TO BE USING MOST OF TUESDAY.
THE COURT: WEDNESDAY MORNING IS FINE.
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD LIKE TO INQUIRE OF
THE COURT, I DID ASK COUNSEL TO HELP ME LOCATE MELVIN
r 23
24
KONG.
MR. TROCHA: WE HAVE. AND COUNSEL HAS ALSO
r 25 GIVEN ME A DATE FOR JOSUE GUTIERREZ. HE WANTS A
r 26
27
DIFFERENT DATE NOW.
REGARD.
WE'LL SEE WHAT WE CAN DO IN THAT
IT WAS TO BE TUESDAY, RIGHT? I KNOW ONE WAS
r 28 THE 13TH AND ONE WAS THE 14TH.
r
135111352
l
1
1 THE COURT: OKAY. WORK IT OUT BETWEEN
2 YOURSELVES. IF THIS IS SOMETHING I NEED TO WEIGH IN ON, l
3 I'LL DO IT. BUT I APPRECIATE THE PEOPLE'S EFFORTS,
4 CERTAINLY WITH RESPECT TO MR. KONG, AND ALSO GETTING 1
5
6
JOSUE BACK AS WELL.
1
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU,.
THANK YOU. WE'LL BE IN RECESS.
1
10 MONDAY, APRIL 11, 2011, AT 9:15A.M.)
11 * * * * *
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r 1351/1352, INCLUSIVE, CONTAIN A TRUE AND CORRECT

TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED
r MATTER ON FRIDAY, APRIL 8, 2011.
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COURT OF APPEA L OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
'
FOURTH APP ELLATE DI STRI CT

DIVISION ONE
PEOPLE OF TH E STATE OF ) FROM SAN DI EGO COUNTY

CALIFORNIA , ) HON . CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDGE
)
PLAI NTI FF AND )
RESPONDENT , ) COURT OF APPEAL
) NO. D060019
vs . )
FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ, )
)
DEFENDANT AND ) JURY TRIAL
APPELLANT . )
)
'
REPORTE R'S APPEAL TRANSCRIPT
APRIL 11, 2011
VOLUME 13
(PAGES 1353 THROUGH 1576, INCLUSIVE)
APPEARANCES :
AND RESPONDENT: ATTORN EY GENERAL
110 WEST A STREET
SAN DI EGO , CALIFORNIA 92101
FOR THE DEFENDANT IN PROPRI A PERSONA

AND APPELLANT:
RINDY M. ORMROD, RPR , CSR NO . 6278

OFFICIAL RE PORTER
DEPARTMENT 48 BEFORE HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDGE

)
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
vs. ) D.A. NO. ACV800
)
)
__________________________)
DEFENDANT. )
APRIL 11, 2011
VOLUME 13
'
APPEARANCES:
DISTRICT ATTORNEY
330 WEST BROADWAY
FOR THE DEFENDANT: MATTHEW J. SPEREDELOZZI
RETAINED COUNSEL
RINDY M. ORMROD, RPR, CSR NO. 6278

OFFICIAL REPORTER
I NDEX
PEOPLE VS. DOMINGUEZ
APRIL 11, 2011
VOLUME 13
CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES:

SERGEANT JOSEPH HOWIE - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA ........... 1354 6
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ...... 1361 18
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA ......... 1365 3
SIMON LOPEZ - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
OTHON MENA, M.D. - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
DETECTIVE GREG PINARELLI - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
DETECTIVE MICHAEL LAMBERT - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI .... 1508 5
FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. TROCHA ............. 1509 21
'
TANYA L. DULANEY - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ........ 1526 11
DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
I NDEX
APRIL 11, 2011
VOLUME 13
ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES:

DULANEY, TANYA L. - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ........ 1526 11
GASCA , DETECTIVE MARTHA - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
HOWIE, SERGEANT JOSEPH - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
LAMBERT, DETECTIVE MICHAEL - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
LOPEZ. SIMON - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
MENA, M.D., OTHON- PEOPLE'S WITNESS
PINARELLI, DETECTIVE GREG - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
APRIL 11, 2011
VOLUME 13
PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION: LINE

33 PHOTO OF GLOVES .......................... 1449 23
67 PHOTO OF INTERIOR OF CAMRY ............... 1445 20
68 PHOTO OF CENTER CONSOLE .................. 1446 3
69 PHOTO OF INTERIOR OF CASTRO VEHICLE ...... 1446 11
70 PHOTO OF SEASHELLS ....................... 1446 24
87 PHOTO OF A SHIRT ......................... 1357 18
88 PHOTO OF BACK SIDE OF SHIRT .............. 1357 18
89 PHOTO OF INSIDE OF SHIRT ................. 1357 18
96 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT ....................... 1452 23
'
100 PHOTO OF TATTOOS ......................... 1454 1
101 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF TATTOOS ................ 1454 14
102 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S SHOULDER ............ 1454 22
103 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF TATTOOS ................ 1455 1
104 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S TORSO ............... 1455 8
105 PHOTO OF TATTOO .......................... 145 5 14
106 PHOTO OF TATTOOS ......................... 1455 22
107 PHOTO OF TATTOOS ......................... 1456 3
108 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S SIDE ................ 1456 9
109 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S BICEP ............... 1456 16
PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS (CONTINUED):
110 PHOTO OF RIGHT SIDE OF DEFENDANT ......... 1457 2
111 PHOTO OF TATTOO ON FOREARM ............... 1457 8
112 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S BACK ................ 1457 19
113 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF BACK TATTOO ............ 1457 25
114 PHOTO OF TATTOO .......................... 1458 11
115 PHOTO OF TATTOO .......................... 1458 17
116 PHOTO OF DEFENDANT'S SHOULDER AND BACK ... 1458 26
OF HEAD
117 PHOTO OF TATTOO .......................... 1459 5
151 SHIRT .................................... 1359 12
163 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ ............ 1389 8
164 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF HEAD AND FACE .......... 1391 10
165 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF FACE .................... 1392 9
166 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF HEAD ................... 1392 22
167 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF HEAD .................... 1393 24
168 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF CHIN AND EAR ........... 1394 15
169 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF MOUTH .................. 1395 6
170 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LOWER LIP ............... 1396 11
'
171 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT EYE ................ 1396 19
172 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF TORSO .................. 1397 6
173 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF ARM AND TORSO ........... 1397 19
174 AUTOPSY PHOTO RIGHT SIDE OF .............. 1398 7
175 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF BODY .................... 1398 18
176 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF TORSO ................... 1399 6
177 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF TORSO ................... 1399 14
178 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT ARMPIT ............ 1399 24
179 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF BRUISING AND REDNESS .... 1400 8
180 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT PALM ............... 1400 20
181 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT HAND .............. 1401 2
182 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT HAND .............. 1401 10
183 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT WRIST AND FOREARM .. 1401 19
184 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT HAND ............... 1402 1
185 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF THUMB AND INDEX FINGER .. 1402 10
186 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEFT FOREARM ............ 1402 19
187 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT FOREARM ........... 1403 7
188 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT ELBOW ............. 1403 13
189 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT FOREARM ........... 1403 23
190 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT S~OULDER .......... 1404 2
191 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF LEGS .................... 1404 9
194 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF RIGHT SIDE OF TORSO ..... 1405 5
195 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND, LEFT ..... 1405 12
SIDE
196 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND TO CHEST .. 1406 18
SIDE
SIDE
199 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF THREE GUNSHOT WOUNDS .... 1410 18
TO RIGHT BUTTOCK
200 AUTOPSY PHOTO OF GUNSHOT WOUND ........... 1411 8
205 PHOTO OF X-RAY ........................... 1415 9
r PEOPLE 1 S EXHIBITS (CONTINUED): PAGE LINE
213 PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ e I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I .1367 17
214 PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ .. , ................. 1367 17
215 PHOTO OF MOISES LOPEZ I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I .1367 17
243 PHOTOS OF BLACK GLOVES I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I .1369 22
r-
";
~. ' DEFENSE EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION:
I PHOTO LINEUP ooooo.. o.... o.. o. o.......... 1500 12
HHH GUNSHOT RESIDUE REPORT o1520 15
"'
~- .
1353
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, MONDAY, APRIL 11, 2011

2 9:15 A.M.
3
4 (THE JURY ENTERED AT 9:21A.M.)
5 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND GOOD
6 MORNING. IT'S GOOD TO SEE EACH ONE OF YOU.
7 THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS ARE
8 PRESENT, ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. WE CONTINUE
9 WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE PEOPLE'S EVIDENCE. I THANK
10 YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS PARTICIPATION
11 IN THIS CASE.
12 MR. TROCHA?
13 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE CALL DETECTIVE JOE HOWIE.
15
16 SERGEANT JOSEPH HOWIE.
17 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY
18 SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
21 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT THE
22 WITNESS STAND.
24 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
25 THE CLERK: CAN YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND
26 SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD.
27 THE WITNESS: IT'S JOSEPH L. HOWIE, H-0-W-I-E.
1354
1 MR. TROCHA?
2 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. I'LL CLEAR SOME OF THOSE
3 THINGS OFF OF THE STAND FOR YOU, DETECTIVE.
4
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
7 Q. DETECTIVE, ARE YOU A DETECTIVE WITH THE SAN
8 DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. WHAT'S YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT?
11 A. I'M ASSIGNED TO THE HOMICIDE UNIT.
12 Q. WHICH TEAM?
13 A. HOMICIDE TEAM 5.
14 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE HOMICIDE UNIT?
15 A. I'VE BEEN THERE ABOUJ TWO YEARS AS A SERGEANT.
16 PRIOR TO THAT, EIGHT YEARS A DETECTIVE.
17 Q. ARE YOU ONE OF THE DETECTIVE SERGEANTS THEN
18 WITHIN HOMICIDE?
19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A POLICE OFFICER WITH
21 SAN DIEGO P.O.?
22 A. 28 YEARS.
23 Q. WAS YOUR TEAM ASSIGNED TO INVESTIGATE THE DEATH
24 OF MOISES LOPEZ FROM SEPTEMBER 13th OF 2008?
25 A. YES, SIR.
26 Q. DID YOU ARRIVE ON THE SCENE IN OCEAN VIEW PARK
27 FOR THAT CASE THAT NIGHT?
28 A. YES.
1355
1 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR ROLE IN THE CASE, THE

2 INVESTIGATION?
3 A. WELL, I HAVE A TEAM OF FOUR DETECTIVES AND A
4 FORENSIC SPECIALIST. MY ROLE WAS TO SUPERVISE THE
5 INVESTIGATION.
6 Q. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
7 A. MAKE ASSIGNMENTS, ASSIGN THE DETECTIVES TO
8 EITHER PROCESS THE CRIME SCENE, INTERVIEW WITNESSES,
9 LOCATE WITNESSES, SUSPECTS, ET CETERA.
10 Q. YOU ALSO ASSIGNED WHO WILL BE THE CASE AGENT?
11 A. YES, SIR.
12 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A CASE AGENT?
13 A. A CASE AGENT GENERALLY IS THE SUBJECT -- OR THE
14 DETECTIVE THAT ALSO PROCESSES THE CRIME SCENE. 1
THEY RE
15 THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR IN THE CASE. INITIALLY THE OTHER
16 DETECTIVES WILL FOLLOW UP ON ALL KNOWN WITNESSES AND FOR
17 THE FIRST FEW WEEKS CONTINUE TO DO THAT, BUT THEN
18 THEREAFTER THE CASE AGENT WILL BE -- IS CHARGED WITH
19 FOLLOWING UP OTHER, YOU KNOW, LEADS THAT USUALLY COME IN
20 SLOWER.
21 Q. WHY DIDN 1 T YOU MAKE YOURSELF THE CASE AGENT?
22 A. BECAUSE I SUPERVISE ALL CASES.
23 Q. HOW IS A CASE AGENT CHOSEN?
24 A. IT 1 S -- WELL, WE JUST HAVE AN ORDER, AND WE HAVE
25 FOUR DETECTIVES, AND SO THEY -- EVERY FOURTH CASE, THEY
26 BECOME THE CASE AGENT.
27 Q. SO IT 1 S JUST, I GUESS, GET IN LINE AND WHICHEVER
28 ONE COMES NEXT?
1356
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF THE INVESTIGATION
3 IN THE CASE?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. DID YOU CONDUCT ANY INTERVIEWS?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. SPECIFICALLY, DID YOU CONDUCT AN INTERVIEW OF A
8 PERSON BY THE NAME OF VICTOR RAMOS?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. WHEN DID THIS TAKE PLACE?
11 A. THE FIRST INTERVIEW ~OOK PLACE ON
12 SEPTEMBER 14th --
13 Q. WHAT TIME OF
14 A. -- 2008.
15 Q. WHAT TIME OF DAY?
16 A. IT WAS IN THE MORNING, PROBABLY AROUND 8:00 --
17 8:00 IN THE MORNING.
18 Q. HOW DID VICTOR RAMOS COME TO YOUR ATTENTION?
19 A. I GOT A PHONE CALL FROM AN OFFICER PAUL GALANTE.
20 HE WAS ONE OF THE -- WELL, HE WAS THE OFFICER THAT
21 FOLLOWED THE IMPOUNDED VEHICLES, VEHICLES THAT WERE AT THE
22 SCENE THAT WERE IMPOUNDED AT OUR STORAGE FACILITY.
'
23 HE FOLLOWED THEM JUST TO MAKE SURE NO ONE
24 TAMPERED WITH THEM. WHEN HE GOT THERE, HE DISCOVERED
25 SOMEONE WAS IN THE TRUNK OF ONE OF THE VEHICLES.
26 Q. WAS THIS VICTOR RAMOS?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WAS HE THEN TRANSPORTED TO YOUR LOCATION?
1357
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHERE WAS THAT?
3 A. AT THE HOMICIDE OFFICE, POLICE HEADQUARTERS.
'
4 Q. DOWN HERE ON BROADWAY?
5 A. 1401 BROADWAY.
6 Q. WHEN MR. RAMOS ARRIVED, WAS HE CLOTHED?
7 A. YES, HE WAS.
8 Q. DID YOU SEIZE ANY OF HIS CLOTHING AS A RESULT OF
9 YOUR INTERVIEW WITH HIM?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEIZE?
12 A. HIS SHIRT, PANTS AND SHOES.
13 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND OF SHIRT HE WAS
14 WEARING?
15 A. IT WAS A -- YES.
16 Q. WHAT WAS IT?
17 A. IT WAS A GRAY LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT.
18 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS 87, 88 AND 89 WERE
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. I WANT TO SHOW YOU SEVERAL PHOTOGRAPHS, PEOPLE'S
22 ITEMS 87, 88 AND 89, AND THEN WE'LL GO THROUGH THEM ON THE
23 SCREEN BEHIND YOU.
24 (PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS.)
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. DO THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS,LOOK LIKE THE SHIRT THAT
27 YOU SEIZED FROM MR. RAMOS?
28 A. YES.
1358
1 Q. LET'S START WITH PEOPLE'S 87. IS THIS THE FRONT

2 OF THAT GRAY LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT?
3 A. YES, SIR.
4 Q. WHY DID YOU SEIZE HIS CLOTHING?
5 A. WELL, IT WAS APPARENT THAT MR. RAMOS HAD BEEN IN
6 A FIGHT, A PHYSICAL FIGHT, AND -- JUST BY THE APPEARANCE
7 OF HIS FACE, AND ON THE -- AS I RECALL, ON THE BOTTOM EDGE
8 OF THE SHIRT THERE, THERE WAS WHAT APPEARED TO ME TO BE
9 BLOOD.
10 Q. CAN WE SEE THAT IN PEOPLE'S 87, OR ARE THERE
11 OTHER PHOTOGRAPHS THAT SHOW IT MORE CLEARLY?
12 A. WELL, YOU CAN SEE SOMETHING, BUT -- OF
13 DISCOLORATION, BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN WITHOUT
14 LOOKING AT THE SHIRT AGAIN --
15 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO --
16 A. -- IF THAT'S WHAT IT WAS.
17 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO PEOPLE'S 88. IS THAT THE BACK
18 SIDE OF THAT SAME SHIRT?
19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 89, IS THIS THE INSIDE OF THE SHIRT
21 ROLLED UP SO WE CAN SEE SOME DISCOLORATION?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WHERE CAN WE SEE THE DISCOLORATION ON THE SHIRT?
24 A. NEAR THE BOTTOM, ON THE LEFT. YOU CAN CLEARLY
25 SEE A MINIMUM OF TWO -- WELL, THERE'S MORE BUT CLEARLY TWO
26 SPOTS OF APPARENT BLOOD, AND THEN ON THE RIGHT SIDE IT'S
27 SMEARED.
28 Q. IF YOU COULD STAND UP AND POINT OUT TO THE JURY
1359
1 WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT ON PEOPLE'S 89.

2 A. SO THIS IS THE BACK OF THE SHIRT (INDICATING).
3 SO THIS WOULD BE THE LEFT PORTION OF THE SHIRT
4 (INDICATING), THE TWO DOTS THERE. THERE'S SOME OTHERS
5 AROUND THERE, BUT THOSE ARE PRETTY CLEAR.
6 THEN ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE SHIRT, IN THIS
7 AREA (INDICATING), YOU MIGHT SEE SOME DISCOLORATION THAT
8 WAS MORE OF A SMEAR.
9 Q. BASED ON YOUR TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, WHAT DO
10 THESE SMEARS APPEAR TO LOOK LIKE?
11 A. I THOUGHT THEY WERE BLOOD.
12 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 151 WAS MARKED
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. FINALLY, DETECTIVE HOWIE, IT'S BEEN SLOUCHED A
16 LITTLE BIT, BUT I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 151, YOUR
17 ITEM 43. DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THE SHIRT WE'RE LOOKING
18 AT IN PEOPLE'S 87, 88 AND 89?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DID YOU REMOVE ANYTHING FROM THE SHIRT, DRAW ON
21 THE SHIRT, DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE SHIRT ONCE YOU SEIZED
24 IT?
25 A. I PUT IT IN A BRAWN PAPER BAG AND SEALED THE BAG
26 AND HAD IT IMPOUNDED.
27 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAID EARLIER THAT IT WAS APPARENT
28 THAT VICTOR RAMOS WAS IN A FIGHT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
1360
1 THAT?
2 A. THERE APPEARED TO BE SOME FRESH ABRASIONS ON HIS
3 FACE AND, IN FACT, DURING-- !,WAS WITH HIM A COUPLE HOURS
4 AND ACTUALLY HIS FACE WAS SWELLING; HIS LEFT CHEEK, AS I
5 RECALL, WAS SWELLING. BOTH HIS EYES LOOKED LIKE THEY HAD
6 BEEN HIT. THEY WEREN'T BLACKENED, BUT THEY WERE RED AND
7 SWOLLEN. HE HAD SOME SCRATCH MARKS ON ONE OF HIS -- IT
8 WAS THE LEFT WEB OF HIS HAND AND THEN A SCRATCH MARK ON
9 HIS CHIN.
10 Q. ALSO, DETECTIVE HOWIE, DID YOU CONTACT MOISES
11 LOPEZ'S PARENTS AS A RESULT OF THIS CASE?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WAS THIS AT THEIR HOME?
14 A. INITIALLY THEY CAME TO THE SCENE, AND THEY WERE
15 INQUIRING IF THE VICTIM MIGHT BE THEIR SON, AND ACTUALLY
16 AT THE TIME I HAD AN IDEA THAT IT PROBABLY WAS. I WASN'T
17 CERTAIN, SO I TOLD THEM THAT I WOULD RETURN TO THEIR HOME
18 IF -- WELL, EITHER WAY, I WOULD RETURN TO THEIR HOME.
19 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO GO TO THEIR HOME?
20 A. YES. WE DID IDENTIFY HIM WITHIN A FEW -- WELL,
21 ACTUALLY, IT WAS AT LEAST A FEW HOURS LATER WE POSITIVELY
22 IDENTIFIED HIM AS MOISES LOPEZ, SO I RETURNED TO THEIR
23 HOME.
24 Q. AFTER INFORMING THE PARENTS WHAT HAPPENED TO
25 THEIR SON, DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO LOOK AROUND MOISES'
26 ROOM?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. DID YOU FIND ANYTHING IN HIS ROOM THAT'S RELATED
1361
1 TO A GANG?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHAT DID YOU FIND?
4 A. AS I RECALL, THERE WAS SOME ITEMS -- SOME
5 WRITINGS, LIKE SCHOOL PAPERWORK, THAT WAS INDICATIVE OF A
6 SOUTH -- OR ACTUALLY A SHELLTOWN STREET GANG.
7 Q. WERE THESE LIKE "38" . AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DID YOU LATER IMPOUND THOSE ITEMS INTO EVIDENCE?
10 A. YES.
11 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, DETECTIVE.
13 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, THANK YOU.
16
19 Q. GOOD MORNING, SERGEANT.
20 A. GOOD MORNING, SIR.
21 Q. SERGEANT HOWIE, YOU FOUND THE GRAY SHIRT THAT
22 VICTOR RAMOS WAS WEARING WHEN HE CAME OUT OF THE TRUNK,
23 RIGHT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. THERE WAS ANOTHER SHIRT IN THE TRUNK AS WELL,
26 RIGHT?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. THAT WAS A WHITE SHIRT?
1362
1 A. YES.
2 Q. NOW, THE GRAY SHIRT THAT HE WAS WEARING -- DO
3 YOU REMEMBER THE ITEM NUMBER TO WHICH YOU IMPOUNDED THOSE?
4 A. WAS IT 48?
5 Q. WOULD 43 MAKE SENSE?
6 A. YEAH, THAT COULD BE IT.
7 Q. AND THEN THE WHITE SHIRT THAT YOU FOUND IN THE
8 TRUNK WITH HIM, HE WAS NOT WEARING THAT SHIRT, RIGHT?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE ITEM NUMBER THAT YOU
11 IMPOUNDED THAT SHIRT UNDER?
12 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE THAT SHIRT
13 IMPOUNDED, DETECTIVE LAMBERT DID.
14 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. YOU ALSO INTERVIEWED A YOUNG
15 LADY NAMED DIANA BANUELOS IN THIS CASE?
16 A. YES, SIR.
17 Q. YOU INTERVIEWED HER OVER THE PHONE, AND THEN SHE
18 ACTUALLY CAME IN ABOUT A MONTH LATER AND GAVE AN
19 INTERVIEW?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. DURING THE INTERVIEW OVER THE PHONE, YOU WERE
22 TELLING HER SOME FACTS ABOUT THE CASE, RIGHT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TOLD HER THAT A MAN AND A WOMAN
25 WERE SEEN NEAR HER CAR ON THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING?
26 A. YEAH. I ACTUALLY TOLD HER SEEN GETTING OUT OF
27 HER CAR.
28 Q. OKAY. AND SHE WAS CALLING YOU TO GET HER CAR
1363
1 BACK, RIGHT?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. BECAUSE HER CAR HAD BEEN IMPOUNDED?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. THEN YOU TOLD HER SHE HAD TO -- IN ORDER TO GET
6 HER CAR BACK, SHE HAD TO IDENTIFY THE MAN THAT GOT OUT OF
7 HER CAR?
8 A. NO. I TOLD HER SHE HAD TO BE TRUTHFUL WITH US
9 SO THAT SHE COULD BE ELIMINATED AS A SUSPECT.
10 Q. 1
DIDN T YOU TELL HER THAT SHE WOULD HAVE TO
11 IDENTIFY THE MALE PRIOR TO RELEASING HER CAR BACK?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO THAT IF
14 I SHOWED YOU A COPY OF YOUR REPORT, SERGEANT?
15 A. YES.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING THE WITNESS.
17 DO YOU NEED TO SEE THIS?
18 MR. TROCHA: NO. I JUST NEED TO TURN OFF THE T.V.
19 BEHIND YOU.
21 Q. SERGEANT, IF YOU COULD JUST READ THIS PARAGRAPH
22 RIGHT HERE (INDICATING).
26 Q. SO, SERGEANT, I M GO~NG TO ASK YOU AGAIN:
1
DID
27 YOU TELL HER THAT SHE HAD TO IDENTIFY THAT MAN BEFORE SHE
28 GOT HER CAR BACK?
1364
1 A. THAT WAS PART OF IT. YOU KNOW, IT ACTUALLY

2 READS THAT I TOLD HER THAT THERE WAS A MALE -- A BLONDE
3 FEMALE AND A MALE THAT STEPPED OUT OF THAT CAR AND I
4 NEEDED TO KNOW WHO THEY WERE, AND I KNEW THE FEMALE WAS
5 HER, ALTHOUGH SHE SAYS SHE ARRIVED THERE ALONE.
6 SO IT WOULD APPEAR THAT IF SHE WAS TELLING THE
7 TRUTH, THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER FEMALE AND A MALE THAT I HAD
8 TO IDENTIFY, ALTHOUGH I ALWAYS KNEW THAT THAT FEMALE HAD
9 TO HAVE BEEN HER.
10 Q. BUT, SERGEANT --
11 A. SO THAT CAR WAS NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED TO HER
12 UNTIL I IDENTIFIED THAT FEMALE AND MALE EVEN THOUGH I
13 REALLY KNEW WHO THAT FEMALE WAS, BUT SHE WOULDN'T ADMIT TO
14 THAT.
15 Q. AND YOU TOLD HER THAT?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF SHE EVER GOT HER CAR BACK?
18 A. WE DID RELEASE IT, BUT SHE GAVE IT TO THE LOAN
19 COMPANY, SO -- IT WAS ACTUALLY SEIZED BY THE LOAN COMPANY,
20 FINANCE COMPANY.
21 Q. MEANING THAT IT WAS SOLD TO PAY THE IMPOUND
22 FEES?
23 A. NO, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE IMPOUND FEES ON IT.
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. NOTHING FURTHER.
26 MR. TROCHA: JUST A LITTLE BIT.
27 \\
28 \\
1365
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. DETECTIVE, THIS INTERVIEW WE'VE HEARD ABOUT WITH
5 MS. BANUELOS, DID SHE SHOW UP WITH ANYBODY?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHO DID SHE SHOW UP WITH?
8 A. AN ATTORNEY.
9 Q. DURING THE COURSE OF THIS INTERVIEW, DID THE
10 ATTORNEY ACTUALLY TELL YOU WHO MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE CAR
11 WITH HER?
13 THE COURT: THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS NOT
14 HEARSAY. THE QUESTION IS, "DID THE ATTORNEY TELL YOU"
15 WITHOUT TELLING US WHAT THE ATTORNEY SAID.
16 THE WITNESS: HE ALLUDED TO IT.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. WAS THIS ALLUDING TO WHO MS. BANUELOS'S
19 BOYFRIEND WAS AT THE TIME?
20 A. YES.
22 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA? '
23 MR. TROCHA: WE CAN RECALL HIM FOR THIS. THAT WAS
24 THE LAST QUESTION I HAD OF HIM. IN TERMS OF WHEN
25 MS. BANUELOS TESTIFIES AS A DEFENSE WITNESS, I CAN
26 WITHDRAW AND WE CAN BRING HIM BACK.
27 THE COURT: I'LL CONDITIONALLY ALLOW IT. OVERRULED.
1366
1 THE COURT: THE QUESTION AGAIN THEN, PLEASE?

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. WAS THIS MS. BANUELOS'S BOYFRIEND AT THE TIME?
4 A. PLEASE REPEAT THE QUESTION.
5 Q. THE NAME THE ATTORNEY GAVE, WAS THAT
6 MS. BANUELOS'S BOYFRIEND AT THE TIME?
7 A. YES.
9 THE COURT: CROSS?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING.
11 THE COURT: DETECTIVE HOWIE, THANK YOU, SIR.
12 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.
13 THE COURT: GOOD DAY TO YOU.
14 MR. TROCHA?
15 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE CALL SIMON LOPEZ.
16
17 SIMON LOPEZ.
19 SWORN, TESTIFIED THROUGH A SPANISH INTERPRETER AS FOLLOWS:
20
23 WITNESS STAND.
24 THE COURT: MR. LOPEZ, UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU
25 WOULD, PLEASE, AND GOOD MORNING TO YOU, SIR.
1367
1 THE WITNESS: IT'S S-I-M-0-N, L-0-P-E-Z.

3 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY QUESTION.
5
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. LOPEZ.
9 A. GOOD MORNING.
10 Q. DO YOU HAVE A SON NAMED MOISES LOPEZ?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. HE WAS MURDERED SEVERAL YEARS AGO; IS THAT
13 CORRECT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE DATE THAT HAPPENED?
16 A. IT WAS SEPTEMBER 13th OF 2008.
17 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS 213, 214 AND 215
18 WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. MR. LOPEZ, I HAVE A HANDFUL OF PHOTOGRAPHS TO
21 SHOW YOU: PEOPLE'S 213, 214 AND 215. COLLECTIVELY,
22 THEY'RE THREE PICTURES OF MOISES LOPEZ.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. MR. LOPEZ, IF YOU COULD GO THROUGH THOSE
27 PHOTOGRAPHS FOR ONE SECOND.
28 \\
1368
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. MR. LOPEZ, IS THAT HOW --
3 A. YES.
4 Q. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO TALK OVER YOU.
5 MR. LOPEZ, IS THAT HOW YOUR SON APPEARED NEAR
6 THE TIME OF HIS MURDER?
7 A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT.
8 Q. SO THE CORRECT AGE AND PHYSICAL APPEARANCE?
9 A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT.
10 Q. DID YOU SEE MOISES THE DAY THAT HE WAS MURDERED?
~
11 A. YES, ON SEPTEMBER 13th I DID SEE HIM. I DID

12 SEE HIM. I HAD HIM IN MY CAR, AND I TOOK HIM OUT TO EAT.
13 I DID SEE HIM THAT DAY.
14 Q. WHAT WAS THE LAST. TIME OR THE TIME OF DAY YOU
15 SAWS MOISES?
16 A. ON SATURDAY, THE 13th OF SEPTEMBER, THE LAST
17 TIME I SAW HIM, IT WAS 6:00 IN THE AFTERNOON.
18 Q. WHEN YOU SAW HIM, DID HE HAVE ANY INJURIES?
19 A. NO, HE HAD NOTHING. HE WAS CLEAN.
20 Q. WAS HE COMPLAINING OF PAIN OR ANYTHING LIKE
21 THAT?
22 A. NO, NO, HE HAD NOTHING. HE WAS CLEAN. HE WAS
23 SLEEPING WHEN I SAW HIM AT 6:00.
24 Q. WAS THIS AT YOUR HOUSE?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY HIS HOUSE AS WELL?
27 A. YES, HIS HOME, IN HIS ROOM.
28 Q. DO YOU RECALL THE DAY OF AND THE DAYS AFTER
1369
1 MOISES' MURDER THE POLICE TALKING TO YOU ABOUT A PAIR OF

2 BLACK LEATHER GLOVES?
3 A. IF THE POLICE
4 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER IF THE POLICE ASKED YOU THOSE
5 QUESTIONS?
6 A. YES, I WAS ASKED SOME QUESTIONS.
7 Q. DID MOISES HAVE A JOB AT THAT TIME?
8 A. NO, HE DID NOT HAVE A JOB. HE HAD NEVER WORKED.
9 Q. HOW OLD WAS HE?
10 A. 14 -- 15. 15.
11 Q. WAS HE JUST GOING TO SCHOOL?
12 A. YES, IN SCHOOL.
13 Q. DID HE EVER HELP OUT AROUND THE HOUSE, LIKE
14 DOING MANUAL LABOR OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
15 A. AROUND THE HOUSE, YES.
16 Q. DID YOU HAVE HIM OUTSIDE DIGGING OR ANYTHING
17 LIKE THAT?
18 A. NO. JUST SWEEPING, CLEANING.
19 Q. HAD YOU EVER SEEN YOUR SON, MOISES, WITH A PAIR
20 OF LEATHER GLOVES?
21 A. NO.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. MR. LOPEZ, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S
26 EXHIBIT 243. I JUST WANT YOU 10 LOOK AT THE FRONT TWO
27 PAGES OF THAT EXHIBIT, JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURES.
1370
1 THE WITNESS: I HAD NOT SEEN THESE GLOVES.

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. SO YOU CAN SEE IT'S A PAIR OF BLACK GLOVES IN
4 THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS?
5 A. YES, THEY'RE BLACK.
6 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THOSE GLOVES BEFORE?
7 A. NO, I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM.
8 Q. SO MOISES DIDN'T HAVE THESE GLOVES AND NEITHER
9 DID YOU?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
11 COMPOUND.
13 THE WITNESS: NO, I NEVER SAW THOSE BLACK GLOVES.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. LASTLY, MR. LOPEZ, DID YOU KNOW IF YOUR SON WAS
16 A MEMBER OF A GANG?
17 A. NO, I DID NOT KNOW.
18 Q. DID IT COME TO YOU AS A SURPRISE WHEN THE POLICE
19 TOLD YOU THAT HE MAY HAVE BEEN?
20 A. WHEN I HEARD IT HERE IN COURT THAT HE WAS IN
21 ONE, YES, I WAS SURPRISED.
22 Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU HEARD IT?
23 A. YES, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HEARD THAT.
24 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER,
25 YOUR HONOR.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY QUESTION.
1371
r 1
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. LOPEZ.
5 A. GOOD MORNING.
6 Q. AROUND THE TIME WHEN YOUR SON PASSED AWAY,
7 MR. LOPEZ, I WANT YOU TO VERIFY WHO HIS BEST FRIENDS WERE.
8 WAS ALEXIS LOPEZ FRIENDS WITH HIM?
9 A. ALEXIS LOPEZ LIVED ABOUT TWO HOUSES DOWN. THEN
10 THE OTHER ONE WAS RAUL.
11 Q. IS THAT RAUL AGUILAR?'
12 A. I DON'T KNOW HIS LAST NAME. AND I KNOW THERE'S
13 ANOTHER ONE WHO'S NAME IS JOSUE. ALEXIS. THOSE ARE THE
14 ONES THAT I KNEW, MORE OR LESS; AND THERE'S ANOTHER YOUNG
15 MAN, BUT I DON'T RECALL THE NAME.
16 Q. HOW GOOD A FRIEND WAS ALEXIS LOPEZ WITH YOUR
17 SON?
18 A. THEY GOT ALONG REALLY WELL. THEY PLAYED AT THE
19 HOUSE, AND THEY ALSO WENT TO PLAY BASKETBALL.
20 Q. HOW ABOUT RONALD MARTINEZ?
21 A. DON'T KNOW.
22 Q. ISHMAEL ACEVES?
23 A. A STUDENT AT THE SCHOOL?
24 Q. WAS HE FRIENDS WITH YOUR SON AS WELL?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW CAROL MARTINEZ?
27 A. WHO?
28 Q. CAROL MARTINEZ.
1372
1 A. NO, I DON 1 T REMEMBER WHO THAT IS.

3 THE COURT: MR . TROCHA? .
4 MR. TROCHA: NO QUESTIONS.
5 THE COURT: MR. LOPEZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT,
6 SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON T TALK ABOUT YOUR
1
7 TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN THE INVESTIGATORS UNTIL

8 THE TRIAL IS OVER, OKAY?
10 THE COURT: GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
11 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
12 THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL REFLECT, IF IT DIDN T 1
13 ALREADY, THAT MR. LOPEZ WAS ASSISTED BY A CERTIFIED COURT

r-- 14 INTERPRETER IN HIS TESTIMONY.
15 MR. TROCHA?
16 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE AT THIS TIME CALL
17 DR. OTHON MENA.
19
20 OTHON MENA. M.D .
23
26 WITNESS STAND.
1373

2 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS OTHON MENA. THE FIRST NAME
3 IS SPELLED 0-T-H-0-N. THE LAST NAME IS M-E-N-A.
4 THE CLERK: THANK YOU.
8
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. GOOD MORNING, DR. MENA.
12 A. GOOD MORNING.
13 Q. YOU'RE A MEDICAL DOCTOR?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT'S YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYMENT?
16 A. I'M A DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER FOR THE COUNTY OF
17 SAN DIEGO.
18 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A MEDICAL EXAMINER WITH
19 SAN DIEGO?
20 A. ABOUT THREE YEARS AND NINE MONTHS.
21 Q. DID YOU WORK FOR ANY OTHER COUNTIES OR AGENCIES
22 AS A MEDICAL EXAMINER?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. HOW DID YOU -- WHAT KIND OF EDUCATION AND
25 EXPERIENCE DID YOU HAVE TO GET IN ORDER TO BECOME A
26 MEDICAL EXAMINER WITH SAN DIEGO?
27 A. WELL, FIRST A BACHELOR'S OF SCIENCE IN COLLEGE,
28 THEN I WENT TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AT UCLA. I TRAINED IN
1374
1 ANATOMIC AND CLINICAL PATHOLOGY ALSO AT UCLA, AND THEN I

2 DID A FELLOWSHIP OR A SUBSPECIALTY IN FORENSIC PATHOLOGY
3 AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.
4 Q. WHAT DREW YOU TO BECOME A MEDICAL EXAMINER?
5 A. WELL, DURING PATHOLOGY TRAINING I LIKED DOING
6 THE AUTOPSIES.
7 Q. DID YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH SOME SORT OF
8 RESIDENCY OR FELLOWSHIP OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE BEFORE
9 YOU COULD BECOME A FULL-BLOWN MEDICAL EXAMINER?
10 A. YES, FOUR YEARS OF RESIDENCY AND GENERAL
11 PATHOLOGY, AND THEN ONE-YEAR FELLOWSHIP IN FORENSICS.
12 Q. AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING DURING THESE YEARS?
13 A. WORKING, TRAINING UNDER OTHER PATHOLOGISTS. I
14 AM TAKING EXAMINATIONS ALONG THE WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M
15 LEARNING WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO LEARN, AND THEN AT THE END
16 OF EACH STEP, THEN I TAKE AN EXAMINATION IN ORDER TO
17 BECOME BOARD CERTIFIED BY THE AMERICAN BOARD OF PATHOLOGY.
18 Q. ARE YOU BOARD CERTIFIED?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. UP TO THIS POINT IN YOUR CAREER, APPROXIMATELY
21 HOW MANY AUTOPSIES HAVE YOU PERSONALLY COMPLETED?
22 A. ABOUT 1,100.
23 Q. I ASSUME SOME OF THOSE WERE AS A RESULT OF
24 GUNSHOT WOUNDS?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY WOULD YOU SAY?
27 A. I WOULD ONLY HAVE TO GUESS.
28 Q. WHAT PERCENTAGE WOULD YOU SAY?
1375
1 THE COURT: BEST ESTIMATE IS FINE. ARE YOU ABLE TO

2 GIVE US AN ESTIMATE?
3 THE WITNESS: SURE. AT LEAST 10 TO 20 PERCENT.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. NOW, WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR DUTIES AS A MEDICAL
6 EXAMINER WITH SAN DIEGO?
7 A. MY MAIN DUTY IS TO EXAMINE BODIES THAT HAVE COME
8 TO OUR OFFICE BECAUSE THEIR DEATHS WERE EITHER SUDDEN,
9 UNEXPECTED, UNNATURAL OR UNEXPLAINED, AND IT'S MY MAIN
10 DUTY TO DETERMINE THE CAUSE OF DEATH AND THE MANNER OF
11 DEATH.
12 Q. DOES THIS MEAN THAT EVERYONE WHO DIES IN
13 SAN DIEGO HAS TO GO THROUGH AN AUTOPSY?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF THOSE THAT WOULD
16 ABSOLUTELY GO THROUGH AN AUTOPSY?
17 A. THOSE WHO DIE UNNATURALLY, MEANING IT WAS A
18 SUICIDE, AN ACCIDENT, HOMICIDE OR CANNOT BE DETERMINED,
19 AND ALSO THOSE WHO DIE SUDDENLY NATURALLY BUT DIDN'T KNOW
20 THEY HAD A DISEASE.
21 Q. AND WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF DOING AN AUTOPSY FOR
22 THOSE WHO DIE SUDDENLY FROM A POSSIBLE DISEASE AS OPPOSED
23 TO BY THEIR OWN HAND OR BY SOMEONE ELSE'S?
24 A. THE MAIN THING IS THAT THEY'RE UNEXPLAINED, SO
25 THERE IS NO DOCTOR WHO CAN SAY WHAT THEY DIED OF, SO
26 THAT'S WHY THEY COME TO US, AND THEN WE TRY TO DETERMINE
27 WHY THAT PERSON DIED.
28 Q. WHAT'S THE POINT OF AN AUTOPSY?
1376
1 A. MAINLY TO EXAMINE THE BODY EXTERNALLY LOOKING

2 FOR ANY INJURIES, DOCUMENT ANY MEDICAL INTERVENTION,
3 DOCUMENT ANYTHING ABNORMAL ABOUT THE BODY, AND THEN WE
4 MOVE ON TO THE INTERNAL EXAM WHERE I EXAMINE A MAJORITY OF
5 THE ORGANS INSIDE THE HEAD AND INSIDE THE CHEST AND
6 ABDOMEN.
7 Q. FROM THAT ARE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE A CAUSE OF
8 DEATH?
9 A. MOST OF THE TIME, YES.
10 Q. ARE YOU ALSO ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT'S CALLED A
11 MANNER OF DEATH?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?
14 A. SO THE CAUSE OF DEATH IS, SIMPLY PUT, A -- WHAT
15 IS THAT DISEASE OR INJURY THAT STARTED THE SEQUENCE OF
16 EVENTS EVENTUALLY CAUSING THE DEATH OF THE PERSON.
17 THE MANNER OF DEATH IS ESSENTIALLY DIVIDED INTO
18 FIVE CATEGORIES, WHICH ARE NATURAL -- WHICH IS A MAJORITY
19 OF THEM -- HOMICIDE, SUICIDE, ACCIDENT AND THEN
20 UNDETERMINED WHEN WE JUST DON'T KNOW OR WE CANNOT DECIDE
21 BETWEEN TWO MANNERS OF DEATH.
22 Q. IF YOU RULE A DEATH A HOMICIDE, DOES THAT MEAN
23 IT'S A MURDER?
24 A. NO, NOT NECESSARILY.
1
25 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT IT S A HOMICIDE?
26 A. IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT THE PERSON DIED AT THE
27 HANDS OF ANOTHER PERSON.
28 Q. COULD THIS ALSO WELL, LET'S USE AN EXAMPLE OF
1377
1 A CAR ACCIDENT. A CAR ACCIDENT HAPPENED AND THAT'S ALL

2 YOU KNEW. WOULD YOU RULE THAT DEATH TO BE A HOMICIDE
3 BECAUSE IT WAS CAUSED BY SOMEONE ELSE?
4 A. NO, I WOULD HAVE TO KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE OF
5 THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
6 Q. SUCH AS?
7 A. SUCH AS IF THE PERSON IN THE CAR HIT THE OTHER
8 PERSON ON PURPOSE.
9 Q. SO THERE IS SOME AT LEAST INTENT THAT GOES INTO
10 IT IN RULING SOMETHING AN ACCIDENT VERSUS A HOMICIDE?
11 A. SOMETIMES, YES.
12 Q. WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT GUNSHOT WOUNDS AND
13 PERCENTAGES THAT YOU GUESSED BETWEEN THAT YOU'VE DONE ON
14 AUTOPSIES. DO YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE IN TYPES OF WOUNDS
15 ASSOCIATED WITH GUNSHOTS?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. SUCH AS TERMINOLOGY LIKE "EXIT WOUND" AND
18 "ENTRANCE WOUND"?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER TERMS THAT YOU WOULD
21 USE IN GUNSHOT CASES?
22 A. SO BESIDES "EXIT" AND "ENTRANCE," WE ALSO TRY TO
23 DETERMINE THE RANGE OF FIRE, LIKE IF IT'S A CONTACT WOUND
24 OR CLOSE RANGE, INTERMEDIATE RANGE, OR SOMETIMES WE CANNOT
25 TELL A RANGE OF FIRE, THEN ANY OF THE INJURIES ASSOCIATED
26 WITH THE GUNSHOT WOUND ON THE SCAN OR INTERNALLY.
27 Q. YOU ALSO NOTE THE CHARACTERISTICS BETWEEN THE
28 WOUNDS, THE EXIT WOUND AND THE ENTRANCE WOUND?
1378
1 A. YES.
2 Q. HAVE YOU RECEIVED TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE IN
3 DETERMINING WHICH WOUND IS WHitH?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. HOW WOULD YOU GO ABOUT DETERMINING WHAT AN
6 ENTRANCE WOUND IS?
7 A. THE MAIN WAY TO DETERMINE IF IT'S AN ENTRANCE
8 WOUND IS WHAT I'M LOOKING AT IS THE SKIN AROUND THE WOUND,
9 SO IS IT SCRAPED AROUND IT, IS THERE A DEFECT ON THE SKIN,
10 ALSO IF THERE'S ANY SOOT THAT CAME OUT OF THE FIREARM IF
11 THE FIREARM WAS CLOSE ENOUGH, OR IF THERE'S ANY STIPPLING.
12 WHAT THAT IS IS THE GUNPOWDER, IF IT DOESN'T
13 BURN ENTIRELY, IT SCRAPES THE SKIN AROUND THE WOUND, AND
14 THEN -- AND USUALLY IN AN ENT~NCE WOUND ONE CANNOT CLOSE
15 BACK UP THE SKIN DEFECT.
16 ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE'S AN EXIT WOUND WHERE
17 USUALLY ONE CAN CLOSE BACK THE SKIN THAT WAS TORN, AND
18 THEN ALSO THERE USUALLY IS NO SCRAPING ON THE SKIN AROUND
19 THE EXIT WOUND IF THE BULLET EXITED.
20 Q. SO MOST OF IT'S BASED UPON YOUR TRAINING AND
21 EXPERIENCE AS WELL AS HOW THE WOUND LOOKS?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT STIPPLING AND POSSIBLE
24 DISTANCES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. DO YOU HAVE
25 TERMINOLOGY FOR THOSE TYPES OF THINGS?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHAT ARE THOSE TERMS?
28 A. SO THERE'S -- FOR RANGE OF FIRE THERE'S "CONTACT
1379
1 RANGE, .. 11
NEAR CONTACT, .. 11
CLOSE RANGE, .. 11
INTERMEDIATE
2 RANGE," "DISTANT RANGE" AND THEN 11
INDETERMINATE" WHEN WE
3 CANNOT TELL.
4 Q. WHAT DOES "CLOSE CONTACT" MEAN?
5 A. IT MEANS THAT THE FIREARM WAS PRESSED, TOUCHING
6 THE SKIN AT THE TIME OF FIRING.
7 Q. AND ON THE OTHER END ' OF THE SPECTRUM, FOR
11 11
8 DISTANT RANGE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
9 A. IT MEANS IT WAS FEET TO YARDS TO EVEN FURTHER
10 AWAY.
11 Q. NOW, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DISTANCE RANGE
12 CATEGORY, ARE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE HOW FAR AWAY THE
13 SHOOTER WAS?
~- 14 A. NO.
15 Q. WHY NOT?
16 A. YOU KNOW, IF IT'S JUST A FEW YARDS TO 100 YARDS,
17 THE CHANGES THE BULLET WILL MAKE ON THE SKIN WILL BE THE
18 SAME.
19 Q. DOES IT ALSO MATTER WHAT TYPE OF GUN IS USED?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. OTHER CONDITIONS, SUCH AS CLOTHING AND WIND AND
22 THINGS OF THAT NATURE, WOULD THAT AFFECT IT AS WELL?
23 A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT WIND, BUT CLOTHING, YES. IF
24 THERE'S CLOTHING ON, THEN THERE IS LIKELY TO BE SOOT OR
25 STIPPLING ON THE SKIN AROUND THE WOUND.
26 Q. SO IN TERMS OF MAKING YOUR -- THE TERMINOLOGY
27 THAT YOU'RE GOING TO USE IN THAT DECISION, DOES THAT
28 SOLELY DEPEND ON WHAT YOU FIND ON THE SKIN OR ON THE BODY?
1380
1 A. NO.
2 Q. WHAT ELSE DOES IT DEPEND ON?
3 A. SO IT DEPENDS ON THE CLOTHING, IF I TAKE A LOOK
4 AT THE CLOTHING. IT DEPENDS ON IF THE PERSON WAS SHOT
5 THROUGH AN OBJECT LIKE A CAR OR A WINDOW OR SOMETHING LIKE
6 THAT, AND ALSO ANY TESTIMONY OR ANYTHING I M TOLD BY
1
7 PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE -- MIGHT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

8 Q. 1
NOW, I JUST WANT TO MAKE CLEAR YOU RE HERE AS A
9 MEDICAL EXAMINER, NOT AS A FIREARMS SPECIALIST.
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. YOU DON 1 T HAVE ANY TRAINING IN FIREARMS, DO YOU?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. SO IN TERMS OF DISTANCE WOUNDS, IT COULD BE
14 ANYWHERE FROM, WHAT, FIVE OR SIX FEET TO 100 YARDS AWAY OR
15 BEYOND?
16 A. YES, AND MAYBE EVEN LESS THAN THAT, LESS FEET
17 THAN THAT.
18 Q. HOW LESS? COULD YOU SAY?
19 A. MAYBE EVEN JUST TWO OR THREE FEET AWAY.
20 Q. WHY IS THAT?
21 A. WHATEVER THE DISTANCE OF THAT PARTICULAR FIREARM
'
22 SO THAT IT S ENOUGH FOR THERE TO NOT BE ANY STIPPLING OR
1
23 SOOT, AND EACH FIREARM IS DIFFERENT, AND ALSO WHICH

24 AMMUNITION IS USED.
25 Q. IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION, DO YOU ALSO RECOVER
26 PROJECTILES OR FRAGMENTS OR THINGS LIKE THAT AS PART OF
27 THE AUTOPSY?
28 A. YES.
1381
1 Q. IS THIS THEN HANDED OVER TO THE POLICE?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. DID YOU MAKE ANY SORT OF DETERMINATION BASED
4 UPON THE WOUNDS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AS TO WHAT KIND OF
5 CALIBER WAS USED?
6 A. NO. ALL I DO IS MEASURE THE SIZE OF THE WOUND
7 AND SOMETIMES MEASURE THE SIZE OF THE BULLET, BUT I DON'T
8 DETERMINE WHETHER -- WELL, I CAN SAY IF IT'S CONSISTENT
9 WITH IT OR NOT, BUT BECAUSE THE SKIN CAN STRETCH OR
10 RETRACT, THEN IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY.
11 Q. SOMETIMES WE'LL SEE ON T.V. -- THEY CAN LOOK AT
12 A HOLE AND GO' 11
0H' THAT's A . 45. II
13 A. RIGHT.
14 Q. ARE YOU ABLE TO DO THAT JUST BY LOOKING AT THE
15 WOUND?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. DID YOU PERFORM AN AUTOPSY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BY
18 THE NAME OF MOISES LOPEZ?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHEN WAS THIS DONE?
21 A. ON SEPTEMBER 15th OF 2008.
22 Q. NOW, WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT HE DIED ON THE
23 13th. WHY WASN'T AN AUTOPSY DONE THE MOMENT HE DIED?
24 A. WELL, THE MAIN REASON IS HE DIED THAT NIGHT,
25 LATE THAT NIGHT, SO THE EARLIEST WE COULD HAVE DONE IT IS
..
26 ON THE MORNING OF THE 14th, THE FOLLOWING DAY, BUT WE
27 WERE ASKED BY THE DETECTIVE INVOLVED IN THE CASE IF WE
28 COULD PUSH IT BACK ONE MORE DAY BECAUSE HE WAS STILL
1382
1 INVESTIGATING THE SCENE.

2 Q. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BODY BETWEEN DISCOVERY OR
3 THE DEATH AND THE TIME YOU DO AN AUTOPSY?
4 A. SO IN THIS CASE HE WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL, SO
5 ONCE HE WAS PRONOUNCED DEAD, OUR OFFICE WAS CALLED AND ONE
6 OF OUR INVESTIGATORS WENT TO THE HOSPITAL TO ARRANGE FOR
7 HIM TO BE TRANSPORTED.
8 FROM WHEN HE ARRIVES AT OUR OFFICE TO WHEN I
9 EXAMINE HIM, HE IS IN A REFRIGERATOR.
10 Q. IS THIS COMMON PRACTICE FOR ALL AUTOPSY
11 PATIENTS?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHY DO YOU KEEP BODIES IN THE REFRIGERATOR?
14 A. WELL, TO KEEP IT FROM UNDERGOING POST-MORTEM
15 CHANGES OR DECOMPENSATION.
16 Q. ARE THERE OTHER TYPES OF REFRIGERATORS BASED
17 UPON THE CONDITION THE BODY IS FOUND IN?
18 A. NO, THEY ALL USE THE SAME ONE.
19 Q. SO EVEN IF SOMEBODY IS FOUND SEVERAL WEEKS OR
20 MONTHS AFTER EXPIRING, THEY'LL STILL BE PUT IN THE SAME
21 REFRIGERATOR AS SOMEONE WHO'S FOUND THE NEXT DAY?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. ARE THE BODIES KEPT IN SOME SORT OF SEALED BAG?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE BAG FOR THE JURY.
26 A. SURE. IT'S A LARGE WHITE WHAT'S CALLED A "BODY
27 BAG." IT'S MADE OUT OF VINYL OR PLASTIC, AND AT THE SCENE
28 THE BODY IS PLACED INSIDE THIS BAG AND USUALLY INSIDE SOME
1383
1 SHEETS ALSO AND THEN IT'S ZIPPED UP AND SEALED. THE

2 INVESTIGATOR WILL PUT A RED SEAL ON IT IN OUR OFFICE
3 SORRY. THE PRACTICE OF OUR OFFICE IS TO PUT A RED SEAL.
4 WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT NOBODY CAN BREAK IT UNTIL I
5 EXAMINE THE BODY.
6 Q. IT'S JUST TO ENSURE THAT NOBODY'S DONE ANYTHING
7 TO THE BODY BETWEEN PICKUP AND,AUTOPSY?
8 A. CORRECT.
9 Q. WAS THAT DONE IN THIS CASE?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO WHEN YOU RECEIVED MOISES' BODY, WAS IT STILL
12 WITHIN THE WHITE BAG WITH THE RED SEAL?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT'S THE FIRST THING YOU DO UPON RECEIVING
15 MR. LOPEZ'S PERSON?
16 A. ME PERSONALLY?
17 Q. YES.
18 A. SO I BREAK THE SEAL AND THEN I UNZIP THE BAG AND
19 WHATEVER IS ON HIM I DOCUMENT -- FOR EXAMPLE, SHEETS OR
20 ANY EVIDENCE OF MEDICAL INTERVENTION -- AND THEN AS I
21 DOCUMENT IT, I MAY TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS, AND ALONG THE WAY I'M
22 ALSO DICTATING MY FINDINGS AND WHATEVER SORT OF EVIDENCE
23 THE POLICE WANTS, AND THEN I GIVE IT TO THEM AND KEEP
24 GOING.
25 Q. IS IT COMMON PRACTICE WHEN YOU'RE DOING THIS
26 THAT A DETECTIVE IS OBSERVING YOUR ACTIONS?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. IS THIS MOSTLY FOR HOMICIDES
1384
1 A. YES.
2 Q. -- OR SUSPECTED HOMICIDES I SHOULD SAY.
4 Q. WHEN THE PERSON ARRIVES, MOISES IN THIS CASE, IF
5 THEY HAVE CLOTHING ON, DOES THE CLOTHING REMAIN ON FOR
6 THIS INITIAL OBSERVATION PERIOD?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHY?
9 A. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO LOOK AT THE CLOTHING IF
10 THERE WAS ANY ON THE PERSON TO SEE WHAT WE WERE TALKING
11 ABOUT EARLIER, ANY DEFECTS ON THE CLOTHING THAT MAY HAVE
12 BEEN DONE BY A GUNSHOT WOUND, AND THEN ALSO WE'RE LOOKING
13 FOR ANY PERSONAL BELONGINGS. THERE MAY BE TRACE EVIDENCE
r 14 THAT THE POLICE ARE INTERESTED IN.
15 SO THEN MY ASSISTANT AND I REMOVE THE CLOTHING
16 IF THERE'S ANY AND GIVE IT TO THE POLICE.
17 Q. WAS THERE CLOTHING IN THIS CASE?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. IS THAT COMMON AS WELL?
20 A. YES, ESPECIALLY IF THE PERSON HAS BEEN TAKEN TO
21 THE HOSPITAL.
22 Q. SO WHEN YOU RECEIVE A VICTIM FROM THE HOSPITAL
23 VERSUS, SAY, STRAIGHT FROM THE FIELD, THAT MAY DETERMINE
24 WHETHER THEY HAVE CLOTHING?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHY WOULD THEY NOT HAVE CLOTHING IF THEY'RE
27 COMING FROM THE HOSPITAL?
28 A. MORE THAN LIKELY THE PEOPLE INTERVENING
1385
1 MEDICALLY WOULD HAVE REMOVED IT AND CUT IT OFF FOR BETTER

2 ACCESS TO THE BODY, AND THEN ALSO SOMETIMES AT THE
3 HOSPITAL THE POLICE MAY ASK TO TAKE IT AT THAT MOMENT
4 RATHER THAN WAIT FOR THE AUTOPSY.
5 Q. SO IN THIS CASE YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO VIEW THE
6 CLOTHING?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE INSIDE THE BAG OTHER THAN
9 MR. LOPEZ?
10 A. SO THERE WAS SOME SHEETS THAT WERE BLOOD SOAKED.
11 THERE WAS ONE OF THOSE ABSORBENT PADS UNDER THE BODY
12 THAT'S USED AT A HOSPITAL, AND THEN THERE WAS WHATEVER
13 THEY HAD PUT ON HIM TO TRY TO RESUSCITATE HIM.
14 Q. WERE THERE ANY BAGS ON HIS HEAD OR HANDS OR
15 FEET?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. WHAT KIND OF BAGS WERE THESE?
18 A. THEY WERE PAPER BAGS COVERING THE HEAD, THE
19 HANDS AND THE FEET, AND THEY WERE SECURED ON THE BODY WITH
20 TAPE. WE DO THIS -- THIS IS ROUTINE FOR HOMICIDES OR ANY
21 SUSPICIOUS CASES IN ORDER TO PRESERVE ANY EVIDENCE THAT
22 MAY BE NECESSARY.
23 Q. WHAT DO YOU DO UPON REMOVING THESE BAGS?
24 A. WE GIVE THEM TO THE POLICE.
25 Q. DO YOU DO ANYTHING Tp THE FEET, HANDS OR HEAD AT
26 THAT TIME AS WELL?
27 A. I LOOK AT THEM AND THEN DOCUMENT ANYTHING IF
28 THERE'S ANYTHING UNUSUAL.
1386
1 Q. AND THIS IS ALL THE INITIAL OBSERVATION PERIOD?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHAT ELSE DO YOU DO DURING THIS PERIOD?
4 A. SO WE TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS, AND THEN ONCE WHAT WE'VE
5 BEEN DISCUSSING IS FINISHED, THEN WE CLEAN THE BODY AND
6 THEN LOOK AT THE BODY ENTIRELY,AGAIN AND THEN START
7 DOCUMENTING INJURIES.
8 Q. PRIOR TO CLEANING THE BODY, DO YOU EVER TAKE
9 FINGERNAIL SCRAPINGS OR THINGS LIKE THAT?
10 A. THE CRIME SCENE SPECIALIST FROM THE POLICE
11 DEPARTMENT DOES THAT.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL IF THAT WAS DONE IN THIS CASE?
13 A. I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
14 DOCUMENTED.
15 Q. WHY DON'T YOU CLEAN THE BODY UPON ARRIVAL? WHY
16 ISN'T THAT THE FIRST THING YOU DO?
17 A. WELL, BECAUSE WE -- IF WE WANT TO TAKE EVIDENCE
'
18 FROM THE FINGERNAILS IN CASE THERE'S ANYTHING, PAINT OR
19 DIRT, WHATEVER, WE WANT TO JUST SAY WHAT WAS THERE.
20 Q. LASTLY, AT THIS STAGE WITH MR. LOPEZ, DID YOU
21 SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF MEDICAL INTERVENTION ON HIS PERSON
22 WHEN YOU FIRST OPENED THE BAG?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE?
25 A. SO THERE WAS SOME SMALL TUBES PLACED INTO THE
26 CHEST. THERE WERE EKG PADS OR ELECTROCARDIOGRAM PADS,
27 THERE WERE SOME DEFIBRILLATOR PADS. THERE WAS A PLASTIC
28 DEVICE INSIDE HIS MOUTH. THOSE ARE THE ONES I CAN
1387
1 REMEMBER.
2 Q. DID YOU DOCUMENT THIS ALL IN THE REPORT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AT THIS TIME DO YOU WEIGH THE BODY?
5 A. IT IS WEIGHED WHEN IT ARRIVES TO OUR OFFICE.
6 Q. DO YOU RECALL THE WEIGHT OF MR. LOPEZ UPON HIS
7 ARRIVAL?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHAT IS IT?
10 A. 229 POUNDS.
11 Q. AND WHAT WAS HIS HEIGHT AND WEIGHT? I'M SORRY.
12 WHAT WAS HIS HEIGHT?
13 A. HIS HEIGHT WAS FIVE FEET SIX AND ONE AND A HALF
14 INCHES.
15 Q. WHEN YOU'RE STARTING TO DO YOUR REPORT AND
16 DICTATING AND DOING A DESCRIPTION OF THE CONDITION OF THE
17 BODY, ARE YOU MADE AWARE OF HIS AGE?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. HOW OLD WAS HE?
20 A. 15.
21 Q. WHAT SORT OF DESCRIPTORS WOULD YOU PUT ALONG
22 WITH THAT IN YOUR REPORT?
23 A. SO I WOULD SAY HOW OLD HE WAS, HOW MUCH HE
24 WEIGHS, HOW TALL HE IS AND ALSO WHETHER SEEING HIM, IF HE
25 LOOKS LIKE A 15-YEAR-OLD.
26 Q. IS THAT THE TERMINOLOGY OF "APPEARANCE
27 CONSISTENT WITH AGE"?
28 A. YES.
1388
1 Q. WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT MR. LOPEZ'S

2 APPEARANCE OUTSIDE OF ANY INJU~IES YOU MAY HAVE WITNESSED?
3 A. WELL, HE WAS OBESE. NOTHING BESIDES THAT.
4 Q. AT THIS POINT WAS MR. LOPEZ CLEANED?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. HOW WAS THAT DONE?
7 A. JUST REGULAR SOAP AND WATER AND A HOSE.
8 Q. AT THIS TIME DO YOU TAKE A SECOND VIEW OF HIS
9 EXTERNAL CHARACTERISTICS OR DESCRIPTION?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT DO YOU DO AT THIS TIME?
12 A. OH, BEFORE I GO ON, THIS WHOLE TIME HE'S ON
13 WHAT'S CALLED AN AUTOPSY TABLE OR EXAMINATION TABLE. BUT
14 AT THIS POINT, THEN WE TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THEN I START
15 MAKING DIAGRAMS OF ANY INJURIES. I'M DICTATING THE
16 INJURIES AND THEN PHOTOGRAPHING THEM.
17 Q. I HAVE A STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS
18 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, SHOULD WE TAKE A BREAK NOW
19 OR IN 20 MINUTES?
20 THE COURT: WELL, I WAS THINKING BETWEEN 10:30 AND
21 QUARTER TO 11:00.
22 MR. TROCHA: OKAY.
23 THE COURT: ARE THE JURORS OKAY?
24 I SEE ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES. THANK YOU.
25 IF YOU NEED TO COME UP HERE TO SEE THESE,
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, AS HE'S LOOKING AT THEM, FEEL FREE TO
27 COME UP.
1389
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. STARTING WITH PEOPLE'S 163 THROUGH 205, WE HAVE
3 THE T.V. BEHIND TO DESCRIBE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. DO YOU
4 UNDERSTAND, DR. MENA?
5 A. YES. WILL I NEED A POINTER?
6 THE COURT: THERE IS ONE ON THE TRAY BEHIND THE
7 TELEVISION I~ YOU WOULD LIKE. RUDIMENTARY, BUT EFFECTIVE.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. STARTING WITH PEOPLES 163, IS THIS HOW MR. LOPEZ
12 APPEARED PRIOR TO THE INTERNAL EXAMINATION?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. DID YOU SEE EVIDENCE OF TRAUMA TO HIS PERSON?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. IN GENERAL, WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE OF TRAUMA DID
17 YOU SEE?
18 A. SO THERE WAS BRUISING, SOME SCRAPING AND THEN
19 THERE WERE A FEW SMALL TEARS ON THE SKIN.
20 Q. AND THIS IS TO HIS HEAD AND FACE AREA AS WE CAN
21 SEE?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WHAT CAN WE SEE THAT WOULD INDICATE AS BRUISING,
24 WITH THE POINTER?
25 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, 163 IS A PICTURE OF
26 MOISES LOPEZ'S HEAD AND FACE, LEFT SIDE.
27 THE WITNESS: SO EXAMPLES OF THE BRUISES ARE RIGHT
28 HERE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE CHIN, ALONG THE JAW, THE
1390
1 NOSE, LEFT EYE AND THEN FOREHEAD. THERE WERE SOME SCRAPES
2 HERE ON THE EAR AND THEN IN FRONT OF THE EAR, AND THEN I
3 ALSO KNOW THAT THERE WAS A SMALL TEAR NEAR THE EARLOBE AND
4 THEN AT THE EDGE OF THE EAR.
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. THE BRUISING THAT WE CAN SEE, ARE YOU ABLE TO
7 DETERMINE IF IT'S FRESH OR OLD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
8 A. I CAN'T TELL EXACTLY HOW OLD IT IS, JUST THAT
9 IT'S RECENT AND THAT THE BRUISES ON HIM ARE SIMILAR TO
10 EACH OTHER, MEANING THAT THEY PROBABLY OCCURRED AROUND THE
11 SAME TIME.
12 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD THE TERM "BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA"?
13 A. YES.
f:' 14 Q. IS A BRUISE A FORM OF BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WHAT IS BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA IN GENERAL?
17 A. IT'S JUST BASICALLY ANY TRAUMA THAT OCCURRED DUE
18 TO A BLUNT OBJECT AS OPPOSED TO A SHARP OBJECT LIKE A
19 KNIFE.
20 Q. COULD BLUNT FORCE BE SOMEONE'S FIST?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. COULD IT ALSO BE A BASEBALL BAT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH WE SEE A BLACK PORTION OF
25 MOISES' LEFT EAR. WHAT WOULD YOU ATTRIBUTE THAT TO?
26 A. THAT DARK PORTION ON HIS LEFT EAR IS A SCRAPE,
27 AND IT'S A LITTLE -- IT'S DARKER BECAUSE IT HAS DRIED.
28 Q. THE TEAR THAT WE SAW, WAS IT STILL BLEEDING, OR
1391
1 DID IT HAVE BLOOD COMING OUT OF IT?

2 A. NO, NOT ANYMORE.
3 Q. THIS IS TWO DAYS AFTER THE MURDER OBVIOUSLY.
4 A. RIGHT.
5 Q. WOULD THAT BE AN INJURY THAT WOULD HAVE BLED?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. THE INJURIES WE SEE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF HIS FACE
8 AND HEAD, IS THIS ALL CONSISTENT WITH BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA?
9 A. YES.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 164, IT'S THE RIGHT SIDE
..
14 OF MOISES LOPEZ'S HEAD AND FACE. WHAT EVIDENCE OF TRAUMA
15 CAN WE SEE HERE?
16 A. SO WE SEE SOME BRUISING HERE ON THE RIGHT SIDE
17 OF THE FOREHEAD. THE DARK SPOT AT THE HAIRLINE IS A
18 SCRAPE, AND THEN THERE'S ANOTHER SCRAPE ON THE RIGHT SIDE
19 OF THE NOSE, ON THE RIGHT CHEEK AND THEN A SMALLER ONE ON
20 THE CHIN.
21 Q. YOU KEEP USING THE TERM "SCRAPE." WHAT IS A
22 SCRAPE?
23 A. ANY INJURY THAT OCCURRED FROM BLUNT TRAUMA DUE
24 TO SOMETHING THAT RUBBED ON THE SKIN.
25 Q. IS THIS A DEEP WOUND . OR IS IT A SHALLOW WOUND?
26 A. SHALLOW.
27 Q. SO LIKE IF YOU WOULD SCRAPE YOUR KNEE FALLING
28 OFF A BIKE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
1392
1 A. RIGHT.
2 Q. ALL THE INJURIES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE THEY
3 ALL CONSISTENT WITH TAKING PLACE AROUND THE SAME TIME?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. IF THERE IS AN INJURY, THROUGHOUT YOUR TESTIMONY
6 THAT APPEARS TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE EARLIER, CAN YOU POINT
7 THAT OUT FOR US.
8 A. OKAY.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 165 IS A PICTURE OF MOISES' FACE
13 STRAIGHT ON. CAN WE SEE ANY ADDITIONAL INJURIES THAT WE
14 HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT IN THE FIRST TWO SLIDES IN THIS
15 PHOTOGRAPH?
16 A. YES. THE TIP OF THE NOSE HAS A SCRAPE, THE
17 BRIDGE OF THE NOSE HAS A BRUISE, AND THEN THE LIPS HAVE
18 SOME -- SOME SCRAPES IN THERE.
19 Q. DID YOU GET CLOSER PICTURES OF HIS LIPS AND
20 MOUTH?
21 A. YES.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. PEOPLE'S 166 IS THE REAR OF MOISES' HEAD. WHAT
26 ARE WE LOOKING AT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
27 A. WE'RE LOOKING AT A TEAR, WHICH IS ALSO CALLED A
28 LACERATION. IT'S ON THE BACK ~F THE HEAD.
1393
1 Q. IT'S RIGHT THERE BY THE MIDDLE OF THE BLUE

2 RULER?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. CAN YOU CAUSE A TEAR OR LACERATION WITH BLUNT
5 FORCE TRAUMA?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. HOW?
8 A. IF THE FORCE IS SUFFICIENT ENOUGH TO BREAK THE
9 RESISTANCE OF THE SKIN OR ITS NATURAL ELASTICITY OR
10 WHATEVER KEEPS IT TOGETHER.
11 Q. HOW WOULD THIS WOUND ITSELF DIFFER THAN, SAY, IF
12 SOMEBODY GOT SLASHED WITH A KNIFE?
13 A. SO IF IT WAS A KNIFE, I WOULD CALL IT SHARP
14 FORCE, AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TEAR AND AN INJURY
15 MADE BY A KNIFE IS THAT THE -- IT WON'T BE AS STRAIGHT, IT
16 WILL BE A LITTLE MORE IRREGULAR. THERE WILL BE SOME
17 SCRAPING ON THE EDGES OF THE SKIN, AND THEN UNDERNEATH THE
18 SKIN SOME OF THAT TISSUE WILL STILL BE CONNECTED BECAUSE
19 IT WAS DUE TO BLUNT FORCE RATHER THAN SOMETHING LIKE A
20 KNIFE.
21 Q. AND THIS WOUND ON 166 SHARED THE CHARACTERISTICS
22 OF A BLUNT-FORCE INJURY?
23 A. YES.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. PEOPLE'S 167 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT INJURY. IT
28 LOOKS LIKE AT LEAST THE AREA AROUND IT'S BEEN SHAVED; IS
1394
1 THAT CORRECT, DOCTOR?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. IS IT COMMON TO SHAVE THE AREA AROUND SO WE CAN
4 SEE THE INJURY MORE CLEARLY?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. IS THIS A DEEP WOUND OR A SHALLOW WOUND?
7 A. IT DOESN'T MAKE IT. WELL, IT'S IN BETWEEN.
8 Q. DID IT GO ALL THE WAY TO THE BONE?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. HOW FAR DID IT PENETRATE?
11 A. TO THE DEEPER PART OF THE SCALP.
12 Q. WOULD THIS BE A WOUND THAT WOULD HAVE REQUIRED
13 STITCHES?
14 A. PROBABLY.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. PEOPLE'S 168 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE LEFT SIDE OF
19 MOISES' CHIN AND EAR. CAN WE SEE THOSE INJURIES YOU
20 TALKED ABOUT EARLIER A LITTLE MORE CLEARLY?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WE CAN SEE ON THE INSIDE OF THE LEFT EAR SOME
23 DARKER COLORATION. WHAT WOULD YOU ATTRIBUTE THAT TO?
24 A. SOME OF THAT IS BRUISING. ALSO, IT'S JUST DRIED
25 BLOOD.
26 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY -- YOU'VE HEARD TERMS MAYBE IN
27 LIFE ABOUT BLEEDING FROM THE EAR. WOULD THAT BE BLEEDING
28 FROM THE EAR, OR IS THAT SOMETHING ELSE?
1395
1 A. NO. I THINK THIS BLOOD CAME FROM THE WOUNDS ON

2 THE EAR OR NEAR THE EAR.
3 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE THAT THE BLOOD CAME
4 FROM THE INSIDE OF THE SKULL AND DRAINED OUT OF THE EAR?
5 A. NO.
6 '
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 169 WAS MARKED
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. PEOPLE'S 169 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE TOP LIP OF
10 MOISES' MOUTH; WOULD YOU AGREE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT IN 169?
13 A. SO WE'RE LOOKING AT THE UPPER LIP, AND THERE'S
14 BRUISING OF IT AND THEN SOME SUPERFICIAL INJURY OF THE
15 SKIN OR THE INNER LINING OF THE LIP. THAT'S CALLED THE
16 MUCOSA.
17 Q. THE BLACK INJURIES, WHAT ARE THOSE?
18 A. BRUISES, AND THEN THERE MIGHT BE SOME TEARING OF
19 THE SKIN TOO.
20 Q. DID THE BRUISING APPEAR TO MIRROR THE GAPS
21 BETWEEN HIS TEETH?
22 A. YEAH, THEY -- I CAN'T SAY SPECIFICALLY, BUT THEY
23 GO WITH WHERE THE TEETH ARE.
24 Q. WE CAN ALSO SEE A DISCOLORATION OR A DARKER
25 COLORATION INSIDE HIS NOSTRILS. WHAT IS THAT?
26 A. INSIDE HERE (INDICATING)?
27 Q. YES.
28 A. I THINK THAT'S EITHER DRIED BLOOD OR DRIED
1396
1 CONTENT THAT CAME UP FROM THE STOMACH.

2 Q. WHEN A PERSON DIES, DO THEY SOMETIMES VOMIT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHY IS THAT?
5 A. THEY'RE JUST NEARING THE END OF THEIR LIFE, SO
6 SOMETIMES IT JUST COMES UP. AND THEN ALSO DURING
7 RESUSCITATION SOME OF THAT MAY COME UP.
8 Q. DID YOU SEE EVIDENCE OF VOMIT IN TERMS OF
9 MR. LOPEZ?
10 A. YES.
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 170, THIS IS A CLOSE-UP OF
15 HIS LOWER LIP. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE, DOCTOR?
16 A. SO THIS IS A LARGE BRUISE OF THE LEFT SIDE OF
17 THE LOWER LIP, AND THEN IT ALSO HAS SOME SUPERFICIAL
18 TEARS.
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 171, THIS IS A CLOSE-UP OF
23 MOISES LOPEZ'S LEFT EYE. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE?
24 A. A BRUISE OF THE EYELID AND ALSO A LITTLE BIT OF
25 HEMORRHAGE OF THE -- IT'S THE SCLERA OR WHITE PART OF THE
26 EYE.
27 Q. SO THE REDNESS, IS THAT BOTH THE EYEBALL AND THE
28 SKIN THAT SURROUNDS THE EYE?
1397
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND THE DARKNESS, THE DARK BROWN -- EXCUSE ME --
3 THE BLACK ON THE OUTSIDE IS WHAT WE WOULD SEE ON THE SKIN
4 IF WE DIDN'T OPEN THE EYE?
5 A. YES.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. PEOPLE'S 172 IS A SIDE -- LEFT SIDE TORSO SHOT
10 OF MR. LOPEZ GOING DOWN TO HIS BELLYBUTTON. WHAT ARE WE
11 LOOKING AT IN TERMS OF INJURY THAT WE HAVEN'T DISCUSSED
12 BEFORE IN THIS PHOTO, DOCTOR?
13 A. THERE ARE SOME SMALL BRUISES ON THE LEFT SIDE OF
14 THE CHEST. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE PROBES THAT WAS PUT IN BY
15 PARAMEDICS PROBABLY.
16 AND THEN OVER HERE (INDICATING) THERE'S -- THE
17 DARKER ROUND DEFECT, THAT'S A GUNSHOT WOUND.
18 Q. WE'LL GET TO THOSE IN MORE DETAIL LATER.
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 173 IS, WELL, FURTHER OF THE LEFT-HAND
23 SIDE, NOW FROM HIS ARMPIT DOWN TO IN THIS KNEE. BELOW
24 WHAT YOU POINTED OUT AS THE GUNSHOT WOUND, DO WE SEE ANY
25 INJURIES IN THAT AREA?
26 A. THERE'S BRUISING HERE NEAR THE LEFT ARMPIT, AND
27 THEN ALONG THE ARM THERE ARE ALSO MULTIPLE BRUISES.
28 Q. WE CAN SEE THE LEFT UPPER PARTIAL ARM AND
1398
1 FOREARM AND HAND. ARE THOSE THE RED MARKS JUST ABOVE THE
2 WRIST AND ON THE TOP SIDE OF THE LEFT HAND?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. DO WE SEE ANY INJURIES THOUGH TO THE TORSO, THE
5 HIP AREA OR THE THIGH AREA?
6 A. NO.
7 (PEOPLE S EXHIBIT 174 WAS MARKED
1
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. MOVING ON TO 174, THIS IS A PULLED-BACK VIEW OF
11 THE RIGHT SIDE OF MOISES LOPEZ'S PERSON, GOING DOWN JUST
1
12 BELOW HIS CHEST. CAN WE SEE ANY INJURIES THAT WE HAVEN T
13 PREVIOUSLY DISCUSSED?
14 A. NEAR THE RIGHT ARMPIT IS A BRUISE, AND I KNOW
15 THAT UNDERNEATH THERE WAS A BULLET.
16 Q. AN ACTUAL BULLET?
17 A. YES.
18 (PEOPLE S EXHIBIT 175 WAS MARKED
1
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. PEOPLE 1 S 175 IS A SHOT OF THE RIGHT SIDE, FROM
22 THE TOP OF THE CHEST DOWN TO THE KNEE, ALSO SEEING MOST OF
23 THE RIGHT ARM, CORRECT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT INJURIES CAN WE SEE HERE, DOCTOR?
26 A. THERE ARE SOME BRUISES OF THE RIGHT FOREARM AND
27 HAND, AND THIS IS A GUNSHOT WOUND NEAR THE RIGHT HIP, AND
28 THEN THIS IS ANOTHER GUNSHOT WOUND ON THE LEFT THIGH AND
1399
1 THEN A BRUISE ON THE RIGHT THIGH.

2 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER INJURIES THOUGH OTHER THAN
3 THAT ONE BRUISE ON THE RIGHT THIGH BELOW HIS CHEST AND THE
4 GUNSHOT WOUND?
5 A. NO.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. MOVING ON TO 176, IT'S A FRONT VIEW OF MR. LOPEZ
10 FROM THE HEAD DOWN TO JUST BEFORE THE BELLYBUTTON. CAN WE
11 SEE ANY INJURIES TO HIS TORSO AREA THAT WE HAVEN'T
12 DISCUSSED ALREADY?
13 A. NO.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 177 IS A SHOT OF THE RIGHT -- EXCUSE
18 ME -- THE LEFT SIDE OF MR. LOPEZ, SPECIFICALLY KEYING IN
19 ON THE ARMPIT AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. WHAT CAN WE SEE NEXT TO THE RULER, DOCTOR?
'
22 A. THERE'S A BRUISE ON THE INNER PORTION OF THE
23 LEFT ARM.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. PEOPLE'S 178 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE ARMPIT OF THE
28 RIGHT SIDE; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT?
1400
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IS THIS A BETTER VIEW OF THE BRUISE WHERE YOU
3 RECOVERED A BULLET THAT YOU DISCUSSED EARLIER?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WE CAN ALSO SEE ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE ORANGE
6 MEDICAL INTERVENTION THINGS?
7 A. YES.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. PEOPLE'S 179 IS HIGHLIGHTING A BRUISE JUST SOUTH
12 OF THAT -- OR, EXCUSE ME -- A RED AREA JUST BELOW THAT
13 ORANGE AREA. DO YOU SEE THAT,,DOCTOR?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT IS THAT AREA WE'RE LOOKING AT?
16 A. IT'S A SCRAPE.
17 Q. NOT A BRUISE?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. I MISSPOKE.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. WE'RE LOOKING NOW AT THE LEFT-HAND PALM AREA OF
24 MOISES LOPEZ'S PERSON. IS THIS COMMON OF WHAT YOU WOULD
25 DO TO INSPECT THE -- ON YOUR EXTERIOR INSPECTION OF THE
26 BODY?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. DID YOU FIND ANYTHING IN THE LEFT PALM?
1401
1 A. NO.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. NOW, LOOKING AT THE TOP OF THE RIGHT HAND IN
6 PEOPLE'S 181 -- DO WE SEE ANYTHING OF NOTE IN 181?
7 A. WELL, THERE'S SOME BRUISING -- IT'S A LITTLE
8 DIFFICULT TO TELL -- BUT LIKE ON THE RING FINGER AND
9 THEN -- THAT'S THE MAIN ONE I SEE.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. PEOPLE'S 182 IS NOW THE OPEN RIGHT-HAND PALM
14 AREA. IS THERE ANYTHING OF NOTE IN THAT PHOTO?
15 A. NO. THE HAND'S SOMEWHAT DIRTY, BUT NO.
16 Q. WE SEE A LITTLE BIT OF BLOOD DOWN THERE BY THE
17 WRIST. IS THAT FROM AN INJURY.. OR JUST FROM OTHER WOUNDS?
18 A. I THINK IT'S A BRUISE.
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 183 IS THE LEFT WRIST AND FOREARM OF
23 MR. LOPEZ. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT IN THAT PHOTO?
24 A. WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME BRUISES; FOR EXAMPLE, TWO
25 HERE ON THE WRIST AND ANOTHER ONE ON THE MID-FOREARM.
26 Q. THIS IS A CLOSE-UP OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN EARLIER?
27 A. YES.
28 \\
1402

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. PEOPLE'S 184 IS THE CLOSE-UP OF THE TOP LEFT
5 HAND OF MOISES LOPEZ. WE CAN SEE THE BRUISE THAT WE
6 TALKED ABOUT EARLIER CLOSER TO THE WRIST. WHAT ELSE CAN
7 WE SEE IN THIS PHOTO?
8 A. THERE ARE A FEW MORE BRUISES SUCH AS ON THE
9 KNUCKLES, AND THEN THERE'S A S~ALL SCRAPE ON THE PINKY.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. PEOPLE'S 185 IS A TOP VIEW LOOKING DOWN AT THE
14 THUMB AND INDEX FINGER OF THE LEFT HAND. AGREE, DOCTOR?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT IN 185?
17 A. BRUISING OF THE LEFT THUMB, ON THE KNUCKLES
18 PRIMARILY.
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 186 IS LOOKING AT THE UNDERSIDE OF THE
23 LEFT FOREARM. DO YOU SEE ANY ADDITIONAL INJURIES HERE,
24 DOCTOR?
25 A. MORE BRUISES SIMILAR TO THE OTHER ONES OF THE
26 FOREARM.
27 Q. AGAIN, IN THIS PHOTO WE SEE BLOOD ON THE TABLE
28 BY THE ELBOW AND ON THE ELBOW ITSELF. IS THAT FROM AN
1403
1 INJURY TO THE ARM OR IS THAT COMING FROM THE WOUND TO THE

2 TORSO?
3 A. THERE ARE TWO POSSIBILITIES: FROM THE GUNSHOT
4 WOUND OR FROM THE SMALL PROBE ON HIS CHEST.
5 Q. BUT NOT FROM A SEPARATE INJURY ON HIS ELBOW?
6 A. NO.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. PEOPLE'S 187 IS AN UNDERSIDE SHOT OF THE RIGHT
11 FOREARM OF MR. LOPEZ. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE?
12 A. A BRUISE OF THE RIGHT FOREARM, NEAR THE WRIST.
13 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 188
.. WAS MARKED
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. PEOPLE'S 188 IS NOW A SHOT OF THE RIGHT ELBOW,
17 CLOSER TO THE TOP OF THE FOREARM RATHER THAN THE
18 UNDERSIDE, AGREED?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT ON THE RIGHT FOREARM AS
21 WELL AS THE BACK SIDE OF THE UPPER ARM?
22 A. BRUISES NEAR THE ELBOW.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. PEOPLE'S 189 IS NOW THE BACKSIDE OF THE UPPER
27 RIGHT FOREARM. IS THAT AN INJURY?
28 A. YES. I CAN'T TELL, BUT IT COULD BE A SCRAPE OR
1404
1 A BRUISE.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. PEOPLE'S 190 IS NOW HIGHLIGHTING THE RIGHT
6 SHOULDER OF MR. LOPEZ. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT IN THIS
7 AREA, DOCTOR?
8 A. I CANNOT SEE AN INJURY ON THE LEFT SHOULDER.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 191 ARE THE LOWER LEGS OF MR. LOPEZ.
13 DID YOU FIND ANY INJURIES TO THE LOWER LEGS?
14 A. I THINK THERE WAS ONLY A SMALL BRUISE ON THE
15 RIGHT SHIN. OTHER THAN THAT, NO.
17 FOR IDENTIFICATION.~
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. AND NOW WE'RE LOOKING AT 192 FROM THE RIGHT SIDE
20 OF MR. LOPEZ'S LOWER LEGS. DO YOU SEE ANY BRUISING?
21 A. THERE'S ONE BRUISE RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).
22 Q. JUST RIGHT THERE IN THE --
23 A. I'M SORRY. ON THE SHIN.
24 Q. ON THE SHIN.
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
28 Q. 193 IS A TOP-DOWN VIEW OF BOTH OF MR. LOPEZ'S
'
1405
1 LEGS. WE CAN SEE THE GUNSHOT WOUND IN THE LEFT THIGH

2 DISCUSSED EARLIER AND THE BRUISE ON THE RIGHT SHIN.
3 NOTHING ELSE?
4 A. NOTHING ELSE.
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. 194 IS A VIEW OF THE RIGHT SIDE OF MR. LOPEZ,
9 NOW MEASURING THE BRUISE THAT WE DISCUSSED EARLIER ON THE
10 RIGHT THIGH, AGREED?
11 A. YES.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. PEOPLE'S 195 IS NOW HIGHLIGHTING THE GUNSHOT
16 WOUND ON THE LEFT SIDE OF MR. LOPEZ'S PERSON, AGREED?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DOCTOR, STOPPING HERE FOR A MOMENT, DO YOU
19 ATTRIBUTE WOUNDS TO VICTIMS AS OFFENSIVE IN NATURE OR
20 DEFENSIVE IN NATURE?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU DO AS PART OF YOUR JOB?
23 A. I DO IF NECESSARY, BUT --
24 Q. WAS IT DONE IN THIS CASE?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. LET'S GET TO THE GUNSHOT WOUNDS. HOW MANY
27 GUNSHOT WOUNDS DID YOU FIND?
28 A. FIVE.
1406
1 Q. DID YOU NUMBER THEM 1 THROUGH 5?

2 A. YES I
3 Q. WHAT IS NO. 1?
4 A. WHICH ONE?
5 Q. YES.
6 A. NO. 1 IS THE GUNSHOT WOUND HERE ON THE LEFT
7 THORAX OR LEFT SIDE OF THE CHEST.
8 Q. THAT WE CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S 195, WITH THE BLUE
9 RULER NEXT TO IT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHEN YOU SAY THE "LEFT THORAX," IS THAT A
12 MEDICAL TERM?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT WOULD IT BE IN LAYMEN'S TERMS?
15 A. CHEST CAVITY.
16 Q. IS THIS AN ENTRANCE OR EXIT WOUND?
17 A. THIS IS AN ENTRANCE WOUND.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. WE HAVE PEOPLE'S 196 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT
22 WOUND. USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE, CAN YOU POINT OUT TO THE
23 JURY THE CHARACTERISTICS YOU TALKED ABOUT EARLIER OF AN
24 ENTRANCE WOUND.
25 A. SO THERE'S A DEFECT ON THE SKIN, OR A HOLE, AND
26 THEN THERE IS SCRAPING OF THE DEFECT SURROUNDING IT, AND
27 THEN THE PINK COLORATION THAT YOU SEE IS JUST A LITTLE BIT
28 OF BLOOD THAT LEAKED UNDER THE SKIN, BUT -- YEAH, IT'S A
1407
1 HOLE WITH SCRAPING AROUND IT.

2 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, I CAN STOP HERE OR WE CAN
3 KEEP -- WE CAN MAKE IT THROUGH "1" AND THEN A BREAK.
4 THE COURT: DO PEOPLE NEED A BREAK? A FEW MORE
5 MINUTES. DON'T BE SHY. DOES ANYBODY NEED A BREAK?
'
6 (NO AUDIBLE ANSWERS.)
7 THE COURT: LET'S PRESS ON THEN.
8 MR. TROCHA: OKAY.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 197 IS THE BACK SIDE OF MOISES LOPEZ,
13 TOWARDS THE LEFT KIDNEY AREA, AGREED?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT IN PEOPLE'S 197?
16 A. SO WE'RE LOOKING AT THE LEFT KIDNEY AREA OR ALSO
17 '
CALLED THE FLANK, AND THIS IS AN ENTRANCE GUNSHOT WOUND OF
18 THE LEFT FLANK, AND THIS WAS THE ONE I NUMBERED NO. 2.
19 Q. WE CAN SEE A CLOSE-UP OF THAT INJURY HERE
20 (INDICATING)?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. THIS IS ADDITIONALLY AN ENTRANCE WOUND?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. GOING BACK TO PEOPLE'S -- EXCUSE ME -- GUNSHOT
25 WOUND NO. 1, WAS THERE AN EXIT WOUND ASSOCIATED WITH THAT
26 SHOT?
27 A. NO.
28 Q. IS THAT COMMON WITH SOME GUNSHOT WOUNDS?
1408
1 A. YES.
2 Q. THERE'S NOT ALWAYS GOING TO BE AN EXIT WOUND?
3 A. NOT ALWAYS.
4 Q. THE ENTRANCE WOUND ITSELF, LET'S GO BACK TO IT,
5 PEOPLE'S 196. YOU TALKED ABOUT TERMS SUCH AS "STIPPLING"
6 AND "BURNS" AND THINGS LIKE THAT. DO WE SEE ANY EVIDENCE
7 OF THAT IN 196?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. WHAT WOULD IT NORMALLY LOOK LIKE IF THERE WAS
'
10 STIPPLING THERE?
11 A. SO THERE WOULD BE SMALL SCRAPES ON THE SKIN
12 SURROUNDING THE WOUND THAT ARE DENSER AROUND THE DEFECT,
13 AND THEN AS THEY GO FURTHER OUT, THEY'RE NOT AS DENSE, OR
14 THEY'RE MORE SPREAD OUT.
15 Q. THIS WAS A RELATIVELY CLEAN ENTRANCE WOUND?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. AFTER YOUR EXTERNAL EXAMINATION OF MR. LOPEZ,
18 YOU DID AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO FIND A PATH THIS BULLET TOOK?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT IS THE PATH OF GUNSHOT WOUND NO. 1?
23 A. SO GUNSHOT WOUND 1 ENTERED THE CHEST CAVITY
24 BETWEEN THE LEFT SEVENTH AND EIGHTH RIBS AND THEN WENT
25 THROUGH THE LEFT LUNG. IT THEN WENT THROUGH THE HEART ON
26 THE LEFT SIDE AND EXITED ON THE RIGHT SIDE AND THEN WENT
27 THROUGH THE RIGHT LUNG AND WAS -- AFTER FRACTURING THE
28 RIGHT FIFTH RIB, IT WAS LODGED UNDERNEATH THE SKIN ON THE
1409
1 RIGHT SIDE OF THE CHEST CAVITY.

'
2 Q. WOULD THAT BE THE BRUISING IN THE RIGHT ARMPIT
3 THAT YOU POINTED OUT EARLIER?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WAS THIS A FATAL WOUND?
6 A. WELL, A PERSON WOULD NORMALLY DIE OF A WOUND
7 LIKE THIS.
8 Q. EVEN IF A PERSON HAD MEDICAL INTERVENTION, WOULD
9 THEY STILL HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF DYING THAN SURVIVING?
11 Q. IN LAYMEN'S TERMS, THIS WENT STRAIGHT THROUGH
12 THE HEART?
13 A. YES.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 197 -- EXCUSE ME. 198 -- WHERE IS THIS
18 ENTRANCE WOUND AGAIN?
19 A. THE LEFT FLANK, KIND OF BACK LEFT RIBS.
20 Q. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE FLANK, IS THAT THE ACTUAL
21 BACK OR IS THAT KIND OF THE SIDE?
22 A. IT'S THE SIDE AS IT GOES TOWARDS THE BACK.
23 Q. AGAIN, THIS WOUND LOOKS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN
24 GUNSHOT WOUND NO. 1. YOU WERE,STILL ABLE TO DETERMINE IT
25 TO BE AN ENTRANCE WOUND HOWEVER?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT HERE THAT DETERMINES IT
28 BEING AN ENTRANCE WOUND?
1410
1 A. WELL, THERE'S A HOLE OR A DEFECT HERE IN THE

2 LOWER PORTION OF THE INJURY, AND THEN WHAT WE SEE AT THE
3 TOP PORTION OF THE INJURY IS -- IT'S AN ANGLED SCRAPE, SO
4 THE BULLET IS ENTERING THE BODY AT AN ANGLE. THEN WHAT
5 MAKES IT EASIER TO DETERMINE THAT THERE'S AN ENTRANCE TO
'
6 THAT IS THAT IT HAD NO EXIT.
7 Q. SO IF WE GO BACK TO 197, WE CAN SEE MR. LOPEZ
8 LYING ON HIS SIDE. THE BULLET WOULD THEN BE COMING
9 STRAIGHT DOWN AS OPPOSED TO AN ANGLE FROM BEHIND?
10 A. SO IT WENT FROM WHERE IT ENTERS AND TRAVELED
11 TOWARDS HIS RIGHT SIDE AND THEN DOWNWARD ALSO, SO I FOUND
12 IT IN THE LOWER BACK.
13 Q. YOU'RE INDICATING AN AREA JUST ABOVE HIS
14 BUTTOCKS, CLOSE TO THE MIDDLE OF HIS BACK.
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DID THIS HIT ANY VITAL ORGANS?
17 A. NO.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. IN PEOPLE'S 199 WE SEE A COLLECTION OF THREE
22 WOUNDS ON HIS RIGHT BUTTOCK; IS THAT CORRECT, DOCTOR?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. CAN WE SEE GUNSHOT WOUND NO. 3?
25 A. YES, GUNSHOT WOUND NO. 3 WAS LET ME MAKE
26 SURE
27 Q. PLEASE.
1411
1 THE WITNESS: YES, GUNSHOT WOUND NO. 3 WAS A WOUND OF

2 THE RIGHT BUTTOCK, AND THE ENTRANCE IS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE
3 OF IT.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -- SINCE WE SEE THREE
6 HERE, IT'S THE ONE CLOSER TO HIS FEET?
7 A. YES.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. THIS IS PEOPLE'S 200\ IS IT A CLOSE-UP OF THAT
12 WOUND?
13 A. YES, IT IS.
15 A. ENTRANCE.
16 Q. DID THIS HAVE AN EXIT WOUND?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. AND PEOPLE'S -- EXCUSE ME. IN GUNSHOT WOUNDS 1,
19 2 AND 3, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF SOOT OR
20 STIPPLING; IS THAT CORRECT?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. WHAT WAS THE PATH OF THIS INJURY?
'
23 A. SO THIS WOUND, AFTER IT ENTERED -- OR THIS
24 BULLET, AFTER IT ENTERED THE RIGHT BUTTOCK, IT WENT
25 THROUGH SOME OF THE SOFT TISSUES OF THE RIGHT LEG, LIKE
26 THE MUSCLE AND FATTY TISSUE, AND THEN LODGED IN HIS RIGHT
27 THIGH.
28 Q. WAS THIS ALSO RECOVERED?
1412
1 A. YES.
2 Q. THIS WOUND -- AGAIN, IT'S NOT PERFECTLY ROUND
3 LIKE THE FIRST ONE -- WOULD TH~S ALSO BE ENTERING AT AN
4 ANGLE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHAT ANGLE WOULD THAT BE?
7 A. ON THE PHOTOGRAPH WE'RE LOOKING AT, IT WOULD BE
8 DOWNWARD TO US.
9 Q. SO IF WE GO BACK TO PEOPLE'S 199, HOW WOULD THE
10 PATH LOOK?
11 A. ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH IT WOULD BE TO OUR RIGHT AND
12 TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE BODY.
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. PEOPLE'S 201 IS A CLOSE-UP OF ONE OF THE OTHER
17 THREE INJURIES WE CAN SEE, CORRECT, DOCTOR?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. SO TAKE A LOOK AT 201 FIRST. WHERE WAS THIS
20 INJURY ON MR. LOPEZ'S BACKSIDE?
21 A. IT'S AT THE UPPER RIGHT BUTTOCK.
22 Q. THE ONE CLOSER TO THE MIDDLE OF HIS BACK?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. SO PEOPLE'S 201 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE INJURY
25 CLOSEST TO HIS BACK AND HIS RIGHT BUTTOCK. WHAT TYPE OF
26 INJURY IS THIS?
27 A. THIS IS AN EXIT WOUND, AND IT'S A LITTLE MORE
28 IRREGULAR THAN THE ONES WE'VE BEEN SEEING. IT'S NOT AS
1413
1 ROUND OR OVAL. THEN IT ALSO HAS A PIECE OF SKIN THAT IF I

2 PULLED ON IT, IT WOULD BE ABLE TO COVER SOME OF THAT
3 DEFECT, AND IT HAS MINIMAL TO NO SCRAPING ON ITS EDGES.
4 Q. DOES THIS HAVE A CORRESPONDING ENTRANCE WOUND?
5 A. YES.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. IS PEOPLE'S 202 THAT ENTRANCE WOUND?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. IF WE WERE TO FLASH BACK AGAIN TO PEOPLE'S 199,
12 CAN WE SEE THAT ENTRANCE WOUND ON HIS BUTTOCK?
13 A. YES. I CALLED IT AS BEING AT THE RIGHT HIP,
14 SO -- I'M POINTING TO THE UPPER PORTION OF THE PHOTOGRAPH.
15 SO IT WENT FROM THE RIGHT HIP, IT TRAVELED TO THE LEFT OF
16 THE BODY AND A LITTLE BIT UP.
17 Q. I DON'T WANT TO USE THE TERM "SUPERFICIAL," BUT
18 DID THIS GO THROUGH ANY MUSCLE?..
19 A. NO, ONLY SOME OF THE FATTY TISSUE WE HAVE UNDER
20 THE SKIN.
21 Q. SO BETWEEN THE SKIN AND THE MUSCLE THAT WOULD BE
22 THERE?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. OBVIOUSLY THIS BULLET WASN'T RECOVERED BY YOU
25 DURING THE AUTOPSY?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. PEOPLE'S 202 AGAIN IS THE CLOSE-UP OF THAT
28 ENTRANCE WOUND, THE FOURTH GUNSHOT WOUND?
1414
1 A. YES.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. FINALLY, PEOPLE'S 203, IS THIS THE FIFTH GUNSHOT
6 WOUND THAT YOU LOCATED?
7 A. IT IS THE FIFTH, ALTHOUGH I CALLED IT NO. 4 IN
8 MY REPORT.
9 Q. AND THIS IS TO THE TOP -- MAYBE TO THE INNER
10 LEFT THIGH OF MOISES LOPEZ?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THIS PHOTO.
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 204, IS THIS A CLOSE-UP OF
17 THAT WOUND?
18 A. YES.
20 A. IT'S AN ENTRANCE WOUND.
21 Q. AGAIN, BECAUSE IT'S NOT A PERFECTLY ROUND HOLE?
22 DOES IT HAVE SOME SORT OF ANGLE TO IT?
23 A. IT DOES.
24 Q. DOES THIS WOUND ALSO HAVE A CORRESPONDING EXIT
25 WOUND?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO RECOVER THE BULLET?
28 A. YES.
1415
1 Q. WHAT WAS THE PATH THIS BULLET TOOK?

2 A. BASICALLY IT INJURED ONLY THE FATTY TISSUE OF
3 THE LEFT THIGH, AND THEN I RECOVERED IT FROM THE MUSCLE OF
4 THE LEFT BUTTOCK.
5 Q. GO BACK TO PEOPLE'S 203. CAN YOU SHOW US
6 GENERALLY THE PATH THIS BULLET WOULD HAVE TAKEN.
7 A. SO IT WENT FROM THE INNER LEFT THIGH AND THEN
8 BACK TOWARDS THE BUTTOCK AND THEN UPWARD.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 205 IS A PICTURE OF AN X-RAY. IS THAT
13 THE BULLET THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?
14 A. IT IS.
15 Q. AND WHERE CAN WE SEE,IT IN THE X-RAY?
16 A. IT'S RIGHT HERE NEAR ONE OF THE PELVIC BONES OR
17 THE LEFT HIP, IN THE GENERAL AREA OF THE LEFT BUTTOCK.
18 Q. IS IT COMMON FOR YOU TO X-RAY BODIES PRIOR TO
19 AUTOPSY?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
22 A. WELL, TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY FOREIGN OBJECT IN
23 THE BODY, TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY INJURY OF THE BONES, AND
24 THEN MORE PRACTICALLY, TO BE ABLE TO FIND THE BULLETS.
25 Q. AFTER LOOKING -- PERFORMING AN AUTOPSY UPON
26 MR. LOPEZ -- BEFORE I ASK THAT, WERE THESE THE ONLY FIVE
'
27 GUNSHOT WOUNDS THAT YOU FOUND EVIDENCE OF?
28 A. YES.
1416
r 1 Q. WE TALKED ABOUT A VARIETY OF BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA

2 TO MR. LOPEZ'S EXTREMITIES. WERE ANY OF THOSE INJURIES
3 LIFE THREATENING?
4 A. THE BLUNT ONES?
5 Q. YES.
7 Q. ASIDE FROM THE ONE BULLET THAT WENT THROUGH
8 MR. LOPEZ'S HEART, WERE ANY OF THOSE GUNSHOT WOUNDS, THE
9 OTHER REMAINING GUNSHOT WOUNDS, LIFE THREATENING?
10 A. GENERALLY NOT, BUT THEY CAN BE IF ONE DOES NOT
11 SEEK CARE FOR THEM, IF THEY BLEED AND IT'S NOT STOPPED,
12 AND THEN THEY COULD BECOME INFECTED. BUT GENERALLY NOT.
13 Q. SO IF SOMEONE WENT TO THE HOSPITAL AFTER GETTING
14 SHOT FOR THE OTHER FOUR, CHANCES ARE THEY WOULD HAVE
15 WALKED OUT OF THE HOSPITAL?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. AS PART OF YOUR AUTOpSY, DO YOU ALSO DO
18 TOXICOLOGY?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DO YOU PERFORM THE TOXICOLOGY YOURSELF?
21 A. NO. I COLLECT THE SPECIMENS, BUT I DON'T DO THE
22 TESTING.
23 Q. IS IT DONE IN-HOUSE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IS IT RELIED UPON IN FORMING YOUR
26 MANNER-AND-CAUSE-OF-DEATH REPORT?
27 A. IT CAN BE.
28 Q. DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF ALCOHOL OR ILLICIT
1417
1 DRUG USE IN MR. LOPEZ'S CASE?

2 A. THE ONLY ONE DETECTED WAS MARIJUANA.
3 Q. NO ALCOHOL?
4 A. NO ALCOHOL.
5 Q. DOCTOR, I'M ALSO GOING TO SHOW YOU BUT WE'RE
6 NOT GOING TO PUT IT UP ON THE BOARD -- PEOPLE'S 92, 93, 94
7 AND 95. IF YOU COULD JUST SIFT THROUGH THOSE FOR A
8 MOMENT.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. THEY'RE PICTURES OF FOUR BULLETS; WOULD THAT BE
13 CORRECT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. ARE THEY THE BULLETS THAT YOU RECOVERED FROM
16 MOISES LOPEZ'S BODY?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WE CAN SEE NOTATIONS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE CARD
19 FOR DIFFERENT AREAS WHERE THE BULLETS WERE RECOVERED.
20 A. YES.
21 Q. WHAT IS THE FIRST AREA?
22 A. RIGHT AXILLA.
23 Q. WHAT IS THE RIGHT AXILLA?
24 A. SO THE RIGHT ARMPIT.
25 Q. WHAT IS THE NEXT ONE?
26 A. THE RIGHT THIGH.
27 Q. SELF-EXPLANATORY.
28 A. THEN LOWER BACK. AND THE LAST ONE SAYS, "LEFT
1418
~- 1 BUTTOCK."
2 Q. SO AXILLA WAS THE ONLY TERM THAT MIGHT NEED A
3 MEDICAL DEGREE TO FIGURE OUT? '
4 A. YES.
5 Q. DOCTOR, LASTLY, WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE A
6 CAUSE OF DEATH FOR MR. LOPEZ?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHAT IS HIS CAUSE OF DEATH?
9 A. MULTIPLE GUNSHOT WOUNDS.
10 Q. WHAT IS THE MANNER?
11 A. HOMICIDE.
13 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE THE
14 MIDMORNING RECESS. PLEASE REMFMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY
15 NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON
16 ON ANY SUBJECT MATTER IN THIS TRIAL. PLEASE DON'T FORM OR
17 EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS SUBMITTED TO
18 YOU FOR DECISION.
19 LET US RECONVENE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK, PLEASE.
21 (THE JURY EXITED AT 10:44 A.M.)
22 (RECESS TAKEN.)
23 (THE JURY ENTERED AT 11:01 A.M.)
24 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. ALL
25 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY
'
26 ARE PRESENT. DR. MENA HAS RESUMED THE WITNESS STAND.
27 THANK YOU, SIR.
1419

2
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 Q. GOOD MORNING, DOCTOR~
6 A. GOOD MORNING.
7 Q. ON CROSS-EXAMINATION, DOCTOR, YOU WERE TALKING
8 ABOUT SEVERAL GUNSHOT WOUNDS, RIGHT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. FIVE OF THEM, TO BE EXACT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. YOU NUMBERED THEM 1 THROUGH 5?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. THE NUMBERING SYSTEM THAT YOU USED, WHY DO YOU
15 USE IT?
16 A. IT'S JUST-- THERE'S,NO PARTICULAR REASON. THAT
17 NUMBER IS JUST FOR ME TO STAY ORGANIZED.
18 Q. SO THE NUMBERS DON'T ACTUALLY INDICATE THE ORDER
19 IN WHICH YOU BELIEVE THE GUNSHOTS ARE FIRED?
20 A. THEY DO NOT.
21 Q. WE WERE LOOKING AT SOME BRUISING ON THE VICTIM'S
22 HANDS IN THIS CASE, RIGHT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WAS THAT BRUISING A BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. AND THE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA THAT WAS ON HIS
27 HANDS, THERE WAS ALSO SOME ON HIS FOREARMS, CORRECT?
28 A. YES.
1420
1 Q. WAS THE BRUISING ON HIS HANDS CONSISTENT WITH

2 HIM THROWING PUNCHES?
3 A. THEY COULD BE.
4 Q. SO IT IS CONSISTENT? I ASSUME YOU CAN'T TELL
5 WHETHER OR NOT IT IS FROM HIM THROWING PUNCHES, RIGHT?
6 A. RIGHT.
7 Q. IT'S CONSISTENT WITH THAT?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. THE OTHER INJURIES TO -- ASIDE FROM THE GUNSHOT
10 WOUNDS, THE OTHtR INJURIES TO THE VICTIM IN THIS CASE WERE
11 NOT FATAL, CORRECT?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. THAT MEANS THE BRUISING ON THE HEAD AND EAR AND
14 THE ARMS AND HANDS, THAT WOULDN'T HAVE KILLED THE VICTIM
15 HAD HE NOT BEEN SHOT, RIGHT?
16 A. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I SAID. I THINK I SAID
17 PROBABLY NOT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF HE COULD HAVE BEEN
18 UNCONSCIOUS, BUT MY OPINION WAS THAT PROBABLY NOT.
19 Q. AND THE BLOOD ON THE EAR, THAT WAS FROM EXTERNAL
20 INJURIES, NOT INTERNAL INJURIES?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. THE CAUSE OF DEATH IN THIS CASE WAS GUNSHOTS,
23 RIGHT?
24 A. YES, MULTIPLE GUNSHOT WOUNDS.
25 Q. BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA WAS NOT PART OF THE CAUSE OF
26 DEATH?
r 27 A. CORRECT.
1421

2 MR. TROCHA: JUST A LITTLE BIT, YOUR HONOR.
4
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
7 Q. THE BRUISING ON HIS HANDS COULD ALSO BE BLOCKING
8 OR DEFLECTING BLOWS FROM ANOTHER PERSON?
9 A. IT COULD BE.
10 Q. THE BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA, IS THAT ALSO INDICATIVE
11 OF A BEATING BY ONE IF NOT MULTIPLE PEOPLE?
12 A. IT COULD BE.
13 Q. YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION AS TO HOW THOSE
14 INJURIES CAME ABOUT; IS THAT CORRECT?
15 A. I DID NOT.
16 Q. YOU'RE HERE JUST BECAUSE YOU OBSERVED THOSE
17 INJURIES?
18 A. YES.
20 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
22 THE COURT: DR. MENA, THANK YOU, SIR. GOOD DAY TO
23 YOU.
24 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. , YOU, TOO.
25 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA?
26 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE CALL
27 DETECTIVE GREG PINARELLI.
28 \\
1422
1 DETECTIVE GREG PINARELLI,

4

7 WITNESS STAND.
12 THE WITNESS: GREG PINARELLI, P-I-N-A-R-E-L-L-I.
13 THE CLERK: THANK YOU ..
16 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR
..
HONOR .
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I OBJECT, YOUR HONOR, TO THE
18 WITNESS AND MOTION FOR SIDEBAR.
19 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. LET'S PUT THE
20 SIDEBAR RULE IN EFFECT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. WE'LL BE
21 OFF THE RECORD FOR JUST A MOMENT.
22 (SIDEBAR DISCUSSION; NOT REPORTED.)
23 THE COURT: THANK YOU, FOLKS. WE'RE BACK ON THE
24 RECORD. ALL ARE PRESENT.
25 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY PROCEED WITH YOUR
26 EXAMINATION.
28 \\
1423
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 A. GOOD MORNING.
5 Q. WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT?
6 A. I'M CURRENTLY ASSIGNED AS A DETECTIVE IN THE
7 HOMICIDE UNIT.
8 Q. WHICH TEAM?
9 A. TEAM 4.
10 Q. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN ASSIGNED TO HOMICIDE?
11 A. JUST OVER TWO YEARS.
12 Q. AND WE SKIPPED AHEAD. THIS IS FOR THE SAN DIEGO
13 POLICE DEPARTMENT?
14 A. YES.
16 SAN DIEGO?
17 A. JUST OVER 26 1/2 YEARS.
18 Q. PRIOR TO WORKING ON HOMICIDE -- IN THE HOMICIDE
19 UNIT, WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT?
20 A. I WAS ASSIGNED AS A ..DETECTIVE IN THE STREET GANG
21 UNIT.
22 Q. WAS THAT ASSIGNED TO THE SHELLTOWN STREET GANG
23 SPECIFICALLY?
24 A. THAT WAS ONE OF THE STREET GANGS THAT I DID
25 MONITOR.
26 Q. PART OF YOUR DUTIES OF BEING A DETECTIVE IN THE
27 STREET GANG DIVISION IS CONTACTING PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE
28 INFORMATION ON CASES; IS THAT CORRECT?
1424
1
1 A. THAT S CORRECT.
2 Q. IN A SITUATION WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL IS ARRESTED
3 ON A CRIME AND THIS PERSON IS A GANG MEMBER OR SUSPECTED
4 GANG MEMBER, IF THIS CRIME IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO
5 ANYTHING ELSE, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO TALK TO THAT PERSON?
6 A. TO FIND OUT IF HE HAS INFORMATION ON ANY OTHER
7 UNSOLVED CRIMES.
8 Q. IS THIS A COMMON PRACTICE WITHIN THE STREET GANG
9 UNIT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. DO YOU GET INFORMATION FROM THIS FROM TIME TO
12 TIME?
13 A. YES, WE DO.
14 Q. AND OTHER TIMES DO PEOPLE JUST TELL YOU TO POUND
15 1
SAND AND DON T SAY ANYTHING?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. DID YOU TALK TO AN INDIVIDUAL IN THIS CASE BY
18 THE NAME OF ANDRES LOPEZ?
19 A. YES, I DID.
20 Q. WHEN YOU TALKED TO ANDRES LOPEZ, WAS HE UNDER
21 ARREST FOR AN UNRELATED CRIME TO THIS CASE?
22 A. YES, HE WAS.
23 Q. WHERE DID THIS CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE?
24 A. AT THAT TIME I WAS WORKING UP IN THE HOMICIDE
25 UNIT. I HAD JUST RECENTLY GOT THERE. WE RECEIVED A CALL
1
26 FROM SOMEBODY IN THE STREET GANG UNIT, AND I CAN T
27 REMEMBER WHO IT WAS, BUT THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD
28 SOMEONE IN CUSTODY THAT HAD INFORMATION ON A MURDER.
1425
1 I WENT DOWN TO THE STREET GANG UNIT OFFICE WHERE

2 I MET WITH MR. LOPEZ, AND HE BEGAN TELLING ME ABOUT A
3 MURDER.
4 Q. WHAT SPECIFICS, IF ANY, DID HE GIVE YOU AT THAT
5 TIME?
6 A. HE TOLD ME ABOUT A MURDER THAT OCCURRED IN
7 SHELLTOWN, AT THE PARK.
8 Q. WHICH PARK?
9 A. IT'S THE ONE AT 40th AND OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD.
10 I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE PARK.
11 Q. WERE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT MURDER HE WAS
12 TALKING ABOUT AT THAT TIME?
13 A. I WAS. I WAS CALLED OUT THAT NIGHT ON THAT
14 MURDER.
15 Q. DID YOU CONDUCT A FULL .INTERVIEW WITH HIM AT
16 THAT TIME?
18 Q. WHY NOT?
19 A. I KNEW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT MURDER BUT NOT
20 ENOUGH TO SPECIFICALLY QUESTION HIM REGARDING THAT MURDER.
21 I KNEW THAT DETECTIVE LAMBERT, THAT WAS HIS CASE, AND
22 BASICALLY HE WAS TRANSFERRED TO JUVENILE HALL.
23 THE NEXT MORNING I GOT AHOLD OF
24 DETECTIVE LAMBERT AND HE AND I WENT OVER TO THE HALL AND
25 INTERVIEWED HIM REGARDING THE INFORMATION THAT HE HAD.
26 Q. THAT WAS THE VERY NEXT DAY?
~ 27 A. YES.
28 Q. WITH DETECTIVE LAMBERT?
1426
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IN YOUR FIRST MEETING THE DAY BEFORE THIS
3 INTERVIEW, DID YOU MAKE ANDRES ANY PROMISES?
4 A. NO.
5 Q. DID YOU SAY YOU COULD GET HIM OUT OF JAIL?
6 A. NO. HE WENT TO -- HE WENT TO JAIL.
7 Q. DID YOU SAY YOU COULD GET HIM OFF PROBATION OR
8 HELP HIM WITH ANY CASES IF HE WERE TO COOPERATE?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. WOULD YOU HAVE MADE THOSE SUGGESTIONS?
11 A. NO, I M NOT IN A POSITION TO MAKE THOSE KINDS OF
1
12 DEALS OR OFFERS.
13 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHO IS IN THAT POSITION?
14 A. THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY 1 S OFFICE.
15 Q. 1
AND IN SAN DIEGO THAT S HOW IT WORKS?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. NOT WITH DETECTIVES MAKING DEALS THAT THE D.A.
18 THEN IS LATER STUCK WITH?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. DID ANDRES LOPEZ -- WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR LIKE
21 WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH HIM?
22 THE COURT: WHICH TIME, PLEASE?
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. I 1 M SORRY. THE FIRST INITIAL CONTACT.
25 A. NERVOUS, I WOULD SAY.
26 Q. DID YOU WRITE A REPORT AS TO YOUR FIRST CONTACT
27 WITH HIM?
28 A. NO. MY INTERVIEW WITH HIM PROBABLY LASTED ABOUT
1427
1 TWO TO THREE MINUTES. THAT WAS IT.

2 Q. AND THERE WAS NO AUDIO OF THIS?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. IS THAT COMMON PRACTICE IN TERMS OF THESE TYPES
5 OF CONTACTS?
6 A. NORMALLY I LIKE TO AUDIO INTERVIEWS, BUT IN THIS
7 CASE IT WAS MORE ON TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT MURDER HE
8 WAS TALKING ABOUT AND UNTIL I FOUND OUT WHICH ONE HE WAS
9 TALKING ABOUT -- HAD IT BEEN A MURDER THAT I WAS FAMILIAR
10 WITH AND ONE MY TEAM HAD BEEN WORKING, IT WOULD HAVE
11 DEFINITELY BEEN AUDIOED OR VIDEOED.
12 IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, ONCE I FOUND OUT IT WAS
'
13 A MURDER THAT MY TEAM WASN'T WORKING AND I DIDN'T KNOW
14 ENOUGH ABOUT IT, I JUST LET HIM GO TO JUVENILE HALL AND
15 THEN CONTACTED DETECTIVE LAMBERT THE NEXT MORNING.
16 Q. DID YOU RELATE TO DETECTIVE LAMBERT ALL THE
17 INFORMATION YOU HAD RECEIVED FROM ANDRES?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. AT ANY TIME DID YOU PROVIDE ANDRES LOPEZ WITH
20 INFORMATION DURING THIS FIRST CONTACT?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. DID YOU TELL HIM WHO DID IT?
23 A. . NO.
24 Q. DID YOU TELL HIM HOW'IT HAPPENED?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. DID YOU TELL HIM WHY IT HAPPENED ALL DURING THIS
27 FIRST CONTACT?
28 A. NO, I DIDN'T. I DIDN'T KNOW WHY.
1428

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION?
5
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 A. GOOD MORNING.
10 Q. YOU USUALLY LIKE TO RECORD CONVERSATIONS, RIGHT?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. AND AFTER YOU -- USUALLY WHEN YOU SPEAK WITH A
13 PERCIPIENT WITNESS IN A CASE, YOU WRITE A REPORT?
14 A. CORRECT.
15 Q. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO
16 ANDRES LOPEZ, YOU DIDN'T RECORD THE CONVERSATION?
18 Q. YOU DIDN'T WRITE A REPORT EITHER?
19 A. I DID NOT.
20 Q. YOU SAY THAT THIS PERSON, ANDRES LOPEZ, DID
21 NOT -- YOU DIDN'T MAKE ANY PROMISES TO HIM, RIGHT?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. OKAY. IF HE SAID THAT YOU DID, WOULD HE BE
24 FALSELY ACCUSING YOU OF SOMETHING?
25 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE. IMPROPER
26 IMPEACHMENT.
1429

3 THE COURT: DETECTIVE PINARELLI, THANK YOU, SIR.
6 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE CALL DETECTIVE LAMBERT, YOUR
7 HONOR.
8 THE COURT: SIR, PLEASE STAND FOR THE OATH.
9
10 DETECTIVE MICHAEL LAMBERT,
13
16 WITNESS STAND.
17 CAN YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND SPELL
18 YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD.
19 THE WITNESS: YES. IT S MICHAEL LAMBERT.
1
THE LAST
20 NAME IS SPELLED L-A-M-8-E-R-T.'
24
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE LAMBERT.
1430
1 Q. COULD YOU TELL THE JURY HOW YOU'RE CURRENTLY

2 EMPLOYED.
3 A. I'M A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR WITH THE SAN DIEGO
4 POLICE DEPARTMENT.
5 Q. WHAT TEAM ARE YOU ASSIGNED TO?
6 A. HOMICIDE TEAM 5.
7 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH TEAM 5?
8 A. SEVEN YEARS.
9 Q. IS THAT THE ONLY TEAM YOU'VE BEEN ON?
10 A. ON A FULL-TIME BASIS, YES.
11 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE WITH THE
12 SAN DIEGO P.O.?
13 A. SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF -- RIGHT AROUND
14 17 YEARS NOW.
16 SAN DIEGO P.O.?
17 A. 22 YEARS.
18 Q. YOU SAT HERE THROUGHOUT THE MAJORITY OF THE
19 EVIDENCE IN THIS TRIAL, AGREED?
20 A. YES, SIR.
21 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE MURDER THAT TOOK PLACE
22 IN OCEAN VIEW PARK ON SEPTEMBER 13th OF 2008?
23 A. I AM, SIR.
24 Q. DID YOU RESPOND TO THAT SCENE ON THAT NIGHT?
25 A. I DID.
26 Q. ONE SECOND.
28 \\
1431
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S
3 EXHIBIT 241. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT EXHIBIT, DETECTIVE?
'
5 Q. IS THAT AN EXHIBIT THAT YOU HELPED CREATE FROM
6 THE SCENE THAT NIGHT?
7 A. YES, IT IS.
8 Q. TELL THE JURY WHAT YOU DID UPON ARRIVING AT THIS
9 SCENE.
10 A. WELL, WHEN I INITIALLY ARRIVED IT WAS ABOUT
11 11:00 P.M. I ROLL UP AND WAIT FOR THE REMAINDER OF MY
12 TEAM TO ARRIVE.
13 WHILE I'M THERE, SINCE I KNEW AT THIS POINT I
14 WAS GOING TO BE THE SCENE INVESTIGATOR, MEANING I WAS
15 PROCESSING THE SCENE, I STAND AROUND THE OUTSIDE OF IT,
16 KIND OF LOOKING IN, KIND OF GAUGING WHAT I'M GOING TO BE
17 DEALING WITH OR AT LEAST GET AN IDEA OF IT, AND I WAIT FOR
18 THE REMAINDER OF MY TEAM TO ARRIVE, WHICH IT INCLUDES THE
19 OTHER THREE INVESTIGATORS, MY SERGEANT AND THE FORENSIC
20 SPECIALIST WHO WAS GOING TO BE WORKING WITH ME ON THIS
21 SCENE.
22 Q. DID YOU ALREADY RECEIVE YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM
23 DETECTIVE SERGEANT HOWIE AT THAT TIME?
24 A. I DIDN'T RECEIVE MY ASSIGNMENT, BUT IT WAS KIND
25 OF MY TURN. I KNOW BEFORE I'M CALLED THAT I'M GOING TO BE
26 PROCESSING THE SCENE. I DON'T GENERALLY PROCESS A SCENE
27 DRESSED LIKE THIS (INDICATING). THE OTHER INVESTIGATORS
28 DO. I DRESS ACCORDINGLY, SO I'LL WEAR OTHER CLOTHING THAT
1432
1 WILL ALLOW ME TO CRAWL AROUND ON THE GROUND IF NECESSARY,

2 UNDER THINGS AND THROUGH THINGS AND I WON'T TRASH MY SUIT.
3 Q. FOR THE RECORD, YOU'RE WEARING A SUIT TODAY.
4 A. YES, I AM.
5 Q. IS THERE SOME SORT OF BRIEFING THAT TAKES PLACE
6 AMONGST THE TEAM BEFORE YOU GUYS FAN OUT AND DO YOUR
7 DUTIES?
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. WHEN DID THAT TAKE PLACE?
10 A. THAT TOOK PLACE SHORTLY AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF ALL
11 THE MEMBERS OF MY TEAM. IN THIS CASE IT WAS SERGEANT
12 STEVEN SHAW, WHO WAS THE PATROL SERGEANT ASSIGNED TO THE
13 SOUTHEASTERN DIVISION SUBSTATION. HE BRIEFS THE TEAM OF
14 THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CASE AS HE, AT THAT TIME,
15 UNDERSTANDS THE CASE TO BE.
16 Q. WHAT SORT OF DUTIES THEN DID YOU UNDERTAKE AT
17 THE SCENE AT THAT TIME?
18 A. AT THAT POINT THE SERGEANT BEGINS MAKING HIS
19 OTHER ASSIGNMENTS AS TO WHAT THE OTHER INVESTIGATORS ON
20 THE TEAM ARE GOING TO BE DOING~ AND MOST OF THE TIME
21 THAT'S TALKING WITH WITNESSES AND OFFICERS AND POTENTIAL
22 SUSPECTS.
23 IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE, BEING ASSIGNED THE
24 SCENE, I BEGAN TO TALK WITH MY CRIME SCENE SPECIALIST, IN
25 THIS CASE JENNIFER SANDERS. HER SUPERVISOR, JOE BURNER,
26 WAS ALSO THERE AT THE SCENE THAT EVENING.
27 SO WE COLLECTIVELY TALK ABOUT THE SCENE BEFORE
28 GOING IN. WE'LL WALK IN TOGETHER, THE THREE OF US, AND
1433
1 WE'LL KIND OF GAZE THROUGH THE,SCENE AND SEE WHAT WE HAVE,

2 KIND OF PRIORITIZE AREAS THAT WE NEED TO WORK AND GET A
3 GENERAL OVERVIEW OF THE SCENE AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
4 ONCE THAT PART IS FINISHED, I KIND OF STEP OUT
5 AND GET OUT OF THE WAY FOR A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE AT THIS
6 POINT IN TIME THE FORENSIC SPECIALIST TAKES HER OVERALL
7 VIEW PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SCENE, AND THESE ARE JUST
8 OVERVIEWS WITHOUT LOOKING FOR ANY PARTICULAR TYPES OF
9 EVIDENCE. IT'S JUST A BIG GRAND-SCALE VIEW OF THE SCENE
10 AND WHAT WE HAVE, AND AT THAT POINT WE GET TOGETHER AND
11 BEGIN TO IDENTIFY EVIDENCE WITHIN THE SCENE AND HOW WE'RE
12 GOING TO PROCESS IT.
13 Q. EVIDENCE WAS SEIZED?
14 A. YES, SIR.
15 Q. WAS THIS DONE MOSTLY BY JENNIFER SANDERS
16 PHYSICALLY?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN SHE SEIZED THESE ITEMS?
19 A. I WAS.
20 Q. TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S 242, THE DIAGRAM, WHAT
21 ROLE DID YOU HAVE IN ASSISTING TO CREATE THIS DIAGRAM?
22 A. WHAT I DO IS WHEN I WORK THE SCENE, I TAKE NOTES
23 OF THE CRIME SCENE AS I GO ALONG. THAT INCLUDES MARKING
24 DOWN BASICALLY ON A LIST THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE AND WHAT
25 THEY ARE, AND I'LL BEGIN WITH ITEM NO. 1. I'LL WRITE IN
26 MY NOTES WHAT THAT ITEM IS. THEN I WILL ALSO, AT A LATTER
27 TIME, GET MEASUREMENTS OF WHERE THOSE ITEMS WERE LOCATED
28 WITHIN THE SCENE USING REFERENCE POINTS.
1434
1 SO AS I GO THROUGH THERE, I'M ALSO DIAGRAMMING

2 IN A ROUGH AND KIND OF A CRUDE-LOOKING SKETCH WITHIN MY
3 NOTES, AND AT THAT POINT I'LL PREPARE ONE THAT'S LEGIBLE
4 TO THE GENTLEMAN WHO DOES THIS FINE WORK (INDICATING)
'
5 BECAUSE MY NOTES, IT'S A LOT OF CHICKEN SCRATCH THAT ONLY
6 I CAN READ.
7 SO I'LL PREPARE SOMETHING A LITTLE NEATER THAT'S
8 EASIER FOR THE VOLUNTEER IN OUR OFFICE TO MAKE THIS
9 DIAGRAM. I WILL PROVIDE THAT TO HIM ALONG WITH CRIME
10 SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SCENE, MY MEASUREMENTS OF THE
11 SCENE, AND THEN HE WILL REPRODUCE IT INTO THIS FORMAT THAT
12 YOU SEE BEFORE YOU IN COURT.
13 Q. CAN WE SEE THE REFERENCE POINTS YOU WERE
14 REFERRING TO.
15 A. YES. IF YOU LOOK ON THE SOUTH EDGE OR THE LOWER
16 EDGE OF FRANKLIN AVENUE, THAT IS CALLED R2. R1 IS THE
17 RIGHT EDGE OF THE 300 BLOCK OF SOUTH 40th STREET.
18 Q. HOW DO THOSE POINTS HELP YOU WITH THE
19 MEASUREMENTS?
20 A. I MAKE ALL MY -- ALL MY COLLECTION AND ITEMS OF
21 EVIDENCE THAT I LOCATE, I MEASURE WHERE THEY ARE LOCATED
22 IN REFERENCE TO THOSE TWO REFERENCE POINTS. SO WHAT I
23 WOULD DO IS, IN THE CASE OF ITEM NO. 1, WHICH IS A SWAB OF
24 APPARENTLY BLOOD AS IDENTIFIED IN THE EXHIBIT, I WILL
25 MEASURE THOSE POINTS OR THAT PARTICULAR LOCATION USING
26 BOTH THOSE REFERENCE POINTS.
27 SO I WILL GO, "ITEM NO. 1 IS SO MANY FEET AWAY
28 FROM R2 AND THEN SO MANY FEET AWAY FROM R1," AND THAT WAY
1435
1 I CAN PINPOINT THAT LOCATION, AND THEN IF WE WOULD EVER

2 HAVE TO GO BACK OUT AND REPRODUCE THIS AGAIN, I WOULD BE
3 ABLE TO GO IN THERE ULTIMATELY AND LAY THOSE ITEMS OF
4 EVIDENCE IN THE SAME PLACE THAT THEY WERE RECOVERED AT THE
5 TIME OF THE CRIME.
6 Q. SO AS WE'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 241, ACCORDING
7 TO THE MEASUREMENTS AND THE PHOTOGRAPHS AND EVERYTHING
8 ELSE THAT WENT INTO CREATING THIS DIAGRAM, THAT'S THE BEST
'
9 RECREATION, IF YOU WILL, OF WHERE THINGS WERE FOUND ON THE
10 NIGHT WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
11 A. YES, SIR.
12 Q. WE SEE FOUR VEHICLES IN PEOPLE'S 241; IS THAT
13 CORRECT?
14 A. YES, WE DO.
15 Q. WERE THOSE VEHICLES STILL AT THE SCENE WHEN YOU
16 WERE CONDUCTING THIS WORK?
17 A. THEY WERE.
18 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE REGISTERED OWNERS
19 OF THESE VEHICLES?
20 A. AT THE MOMENT WE MAY'HAVE HAD SOME INFORMATION
21 AS TO WHO THE REGISTERED OWNERS WERE, AND THAT MAY HAVE
22 BEEN DONE BY THE INITIAL OFFICERS AT THE SCENE BY RUNNING
23 THOSE PLATES, BUT ULTIMATELY, YES, I WAS ABLE TO IDENTIFY
24 THE REGISTERED OWNERS OF EACH OF THOSE VEHICLES.
25 Q. LET'S START THEN WITH THE BLUE NISSAN FOUND IN
26 THE PARK, IN THE ALLEYWAY. YOU KNOW THE ONE I'M REFERRING
27 TO?
28 A. THE ONE REGISTERED TO MS. FORD?
1436
'
1 Q. WHAT IS HER FULL NAME?
2 A. SIRIA FORD.
3 Q. THEN LET'S WORK OUR WAY DOWN FRANKLIN. THE BLUE
4 NISSAN TO THE FAR LEFT, WERE YOU ABLE TO FIND THE
5 REGISTERED OWNER OF THAT CAR?
6 A. YES. THAT VEHICLE WAS REGISTERED TO -- I WOULD
7 HAVE TO LOOK IN MY NOTES AGAIN. IT WAS DRIVEN BY THE
8 GIRLFRIEND OF TOMAS LOPEZ AT THE TIME, BUT IT WAS NOT
9 REGISTERED TO HER.
11 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE PART ABOUT WHO DROVE IT
12 IS STRICKEN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WITHOUT FURTHER
13 FOUNDATION.
14 THE REGISTERED OWNER, PLEASE, DETECTIVE?
15 THE WITNESS: IF I COULD LOOK AT MY NOTES,
16 YOUR HONOR, TO REFRESH MY MEMORY?
20 THE WITNESS: THE VEHICLE WAS REGISTERED TO
21 SARA CASTRO.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. THE VEHICLE THAT'S PARKED IN FRONT OF
'
24 SARA CASTRO'S REGISTERED-OWNERED CAR, THE RED EL CAMINO,
25 WHO WAS THE REGISTERED OWNER OF THAT CAR?
26 A. TOMAS LOPEZ.
27 Q. THE CAR THAT'S PARKED IN FRONT OF THAT, THE
28 BLUISH-GRAY TOYOTA CAMRY, WHO IS THE REGISTERED OWNER OF
1437
1 THAT CAR?
2 A. DIANA BANUELOS.
3 Q. WERE ANY OF THESE PEOPLE AT THE SCENE WHEN YOU
4 ARRIVED?
5 A. NO, SIR.
6 Q. DID ANY OF THEM SHOW UP LATER?
7 A. NO, SIR.
8 Q. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS
9 SEIZED THAT NIGHT?
10 A. AFTER THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE WERE PHOTOGRAPHED,
11 MEASUREMENTS COLLECTED, THEY WERE ULTIMATELY TAKEN BY
12 FORENSIC SPECIALIST SANDERS AND IMPOUNDED IN ACCORDANCE
13 WITH OUR LAB PROCEDURES FOR DOING THAT.
14 Q. BEAR WITH ME FOR ONE MOMENT, DETECTIVE; I'M
15 GOING TO GET THIS QUEUED UP HERE.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. YOU SAID YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AROUND 11:00
19 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT?
20 A. YES, SIR.
21 Q. WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS LIKE THAT NIGHT IN
22 TERMS OF WEATHER, LIGHTING, THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
23 A. IT WAS -- IT WAS COOL. IT WAS A LATE
24 SUMMER/EARLY FALL EVENING, SO IT WAS COOL THAT EVENING,
25 HADN'T BEEN ANY WEATHER TO SPEAK OF, RAIN OR ANYTHING LIKE
26 THAT. IT WAS NIGHTTIME AND IT WAS CONTAINED PRETTY MUCH
27 THE SCENE WITHIN THE PARK AS YOU SEE IT THERE.
'
28 Q. YOU'VE SEEN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS BEFORE, CORRECT,
1438
1 DETECTIVE?
2 A. YES, I HAVE.
3 Q. LET'S JUST GO WITH THE ONES ON THE T.V. IN
4 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 4 WE SEE A RATHER BRIGHT OBJECT OVER THE
5 TREES. DO YOU SEE THAT?
6 A. I DO, SIR.
7 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
8 A. IT'S A LARGE FLOOD-TYPE LIGHT THAT'S ABOVE THE
9 TREES, THAT ILLUMINATES THE PARK OR THE OPEN AREA OF THE
10 PARK.
11 Q. HOW MUCH OF THE PARK DID IT LIGHT UP?
12 A. THE MAJORITY OF THE CREST OF THE HILL. THERE'S
13 OTHER LIGHTING THAT AIDS IN THAT, BUT IT COVERS THE
14 MAJORITY OF THE CREST OF THE HILL. IT ALSO CASTS LIGHT --
15 SOME LIGHT THROUGH THE TREES ONTO THE GROUND BENEATH THEM,
16 BUT IT COVERS THE MAJOR SPAN OF THIS AREA OF THE PARK OR
17 THE CREST AREA AS YOU SEE IT THERE.
18 Q. I WANT TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION -- WE CAN SEE
19 WHAT APPEAR TO BE ORANGE AROUND THIS AREA HERE
20 (INDICATING), CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
21 A. YES, SIR.
22 Q. DOES THAT ACCURATELY DEPICT, TO YOUR
23 RECOLLECTION, THAT THAT ORANGE IS COMING FROM THAT LIGHT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHILE YOU WERE IN THE PARK, DID YOU HAVE ANY
26 PROBLEMS SEEING?
27 A. NO, SIR.
28 Q. DO YOU CARRY A FLASHLIGHT WITH YOU?
1439
1 A. I DO.
2 Q. DID YOU HAVE TO PULL OUT YOUR FLASHLIGHT THAT
3 NIGHT?
4 A. FOR LOOKING IN CERTAIN AREAS, UNDERNEATH
5 VEHICLES, INTO DARKER CREVASSY KIND OF AREAS WITHIN THE
6 PARK, BUT IN GENERAL, JUST IN VIEWING THE SCENE ITSELF,
7 NO, I DID NOT.
8 Q. OTHER PEOPLE WERE THERE, CORRECT?
9 A. YES, SIR.
10 Q. APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY POLICE OFFICERS DO YOU
11 THINK WERE THERE?
12 A. OH, I HAVE NO IDEA. 'THEY WERE IN VARIOUS
13 LOCATIONS AROUND THE PARK, SECURING IT SO OTHER PEOPLE
14 COULDN'T COME WITHIN THE SCENE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE
15 ESTIMATES ARE, BUT IT WAS -- WITHIN THE SCENE IT WAS
16 MYSELF, FORENSIC SPECIALIST SANDERS AND HER SUPERVISOR,
17 JOE BURNER.
18 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM RECOGNIZING THESE
19 PEOPLE AT ANY TIME IN THE PARK?
20 A. NO, SIR.
21 Q. WERE THERE OTHER DETECTIVES OR OTHER OFFICERS
22 THAT YOU KNOW THAT SHOWED UP AT THIS SCENE?
23 A. YES, SIR.
24 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM RECOGNIZING THEM?
25 A. NO, SIR.
26 Q. SO IF YOU WERE STANDING UP ON THE CORNER OF
27 30th AND -- I'M SORRY -- 40th AND FRANKLIN, AND YOU
28 WERE LOOKING DOWN ON DIANA BANUELOS'S CAR, WERE YOU ABLE
1440
1 TO RECOGNIZE PEOPLE THAT FAR AWAY?

2 A. I BELIEVE SO. I THINK THAT AREA OF THE PARK
3 MIGHT HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT DARKER THAN, SAY, THE CREST
4 AREA. IF I'M FAMILIAR WITH THEM, I WOULD PROBABLY KNOW
5 WHO THEY ARE.
6 Q. IF THEY WERE A STRANGER, THOUGH?
9 THE WITNESS: IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. YOU COULD MAKE OUT THEIR FACIALS [SIC]?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO -- GIVE ME A SECOND HERE,
14 DETECTIVE.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. I'M SHOWING YOU NOW WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
18 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 7. THIS IS ANOTHER STREETLIGHT ON THE
19 OTHER SIDE OF 40th; IS THAT CORRECT?
20 A. YES, SIR, THAT'S CORRECT.
21 Q. DID YOU HAVE THE CITY TURN THESE LIGHTS ON WHEN
22 YOU GOT TO THE PARK?
23 A. NO, SIR.
24 Q. WERE THEY ON WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
25 A. THEY WERE.
26 Q. THERE WE GO (INDICTING). IT'S THE VERY NEXT
27 ONE, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 8. DO YOU SEE THE ROOF OF THE
28 BATHROOMS OVER TO THE LEFT-HAND SIDE?
1441

2 Q. DO YOU SEE THAT BRIGHT LIGHT RIGHT NEXT TO THOSE
3 BATHROOMS?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. IS THAT HOW IT APPEARED THAT NIGHT IN QUESTION?
6 A. YES, SIR.
7 Q. SO IT WAS ON WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
8 A. IT WAS.
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T HAVE SOMEBODY TURN IT ON?
10 A. NO, SIR.
11 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEN THE LIGHTING IN THE
12 PARK?
13 A. IT WAS ADEQUATE ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO SEE IN THE
14 PARK. THE CITY PUTS THE LIGHTS IN THE PARK FOR A PURPOSE
15 AND THAT'S TO ILLUMINATE THEM, YOU KNOW, FOR NIGHTTIME,
16 AND SO YOU CAN SEE IN THE PARK AND YOU COULD SOCIALIZE IN
17 THE PARK IF YOU HAD TO, AND IT ALSO AIDS IN LAW
18 ENFORCEMENT BEING ABLE TO SEE PEOPLE IN THE PARK WHEN WE
19 DRIVE BY ON PATROL AND THINGS ..LIKE THAT .
20 THE COMMUNITY WANTS THEM THERE FOR THE MOST PART
21 BECAUSE THEY WANT TO FEEL SAFER IN THE PARKS, SO THEY'VE
22 BEEN THERE FOR SOME TIME.
23 Q. THIS IS ALL OCCURRING AT AROUND 11:00 O'CLOCK AT
24 NIGHT?
25 A. THAT'S WHEN I GOT THERE.
26 Q. WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT THE PHOTOGRAPHS WERE
27 TAKEN WITH SOME SPECIAL TECHNIQUE FOR NIGHTTIME
28 PHOTOGRAPHY. ARE YOU SAYING IT WAS THIS BRIGHT OUTSIDE
1442
1 THAT WE CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 8 WHEN YOU WERE

2 STANDING THERE?
3 A. NO, SIR, IT WAS NOT THAT BRIGHT.
4 Q. IT WAS A BIT DARKER THAN THAT?
5 A. YES, SIR.
6 Q. WAS IT PITCH-BLACK?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. WAS IT LIKE BEING STUCK IN A MINE WITHOUT A
9 LIGHT?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE -- IF YOU WERE STANDING AT
12 THIS LOCATION, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIJ 8, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO
13 STAND AND SEE SOMEBODY AND RECOGNIZE THEM IF THEY WERE ON
14 THAT WALKWAY AS WE CAN SEE IN THE PARK?
15 A. PROBABLY.
16 Q. YOU WEAR GLASSES, I SEE.
17 A. YES, SIR.
18 Q. WHAT ARE THE GLASSES FOR?
19 A. FOR SEEING FAR AWAY.
20 Q. WERE YOU WEARING THEM THAT NIGHT?
21 A. I DIDN'T NEED THEM THEN.
22 Q. YOU NEED THEM NOW?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. WE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT THESE FOUR VEHICLES WE
25 CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S 241 AND OTHER EXHIBITS WERE
26 TRANSPORTED TO THE SAN DIEGO P.O. IMPOUND LOT; IS THAT
27 CORRECT?
28 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES, SIR.
1443
1 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO GO UP AND LOOK AT ANY

2 OF THOSE CARS AT THAT LOT?
3 A. I DID, ALL FOUR.
4 Q. DID YOU SEIZE ANY ITEMS OF INTEREST IN THOSE
5 VEHICLES?
6 A. A T-SHIRT AND SKATEBOARD WAS RECOVERED FROM THE
7 TRUNK OF THE VEHICLE PARKED IN THE ALLEY THAT BELONGED TO
8 MS. FORD.
9 Q. I'LL SKIP AHEAD AND SHOW YOU A SERIES OF
10 EXHIBITS.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. I'M HANDING YOU NOW, DETECTIVE, PEOPLE'S
14 EXHIBITS 66, 90, AND 91. START WITH PEOPLE'S 66. IT
15 APPEARS TO BE A VIEW OF A TRUNK OF SOME VEHICLE, CORRECT?
'
16 A. YES, SIR, IT DOES.
17 Q. WHOSE VEHICLE IS THAT?
18 A. THAT WOULD BE THE CAR THAT WAS RECOVERED FROM
19 THE ALLEY, BELONGING TO MS. FORD.
20 Q. WHAT ITEMS CAN WE SEE THAT WERE SEIZED BY YOU IN
21 THIS PICTURE?
22 A. THERE'S A WHITE T-SHIRT THAT IS PARTIALLY
23 VISIBLE NEAR WHERE THE SKATEBOARD -- WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE
24 SKATEBOARD WHEELS, SO THOSE TWO ITEMS.
25 Q. JUST TO THE LEFT OF THE BLUE BAG?
26 A. YES, SIR.
27 Q. SKIP AHEAD TO PEOPLE 1 S 90. IS THIS THAT T-SHIRT
28 THAT WE CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 90?
1444
1 A. YES, SIR.
2 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, PEOPLE 1 S 90 IS A WHITE
3 T-SHIRT, FRONTAL VIEW.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. ARE THERE ANY DISCOLORATIONS OR STAINS THAT WERE
6 OF NOTE?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHERE?
9 A. AS YOU LOOK AT THE PHOTOGRAPH ON THE LOWER
10 SECTION, JUST TO THE LEFT OF THE CENTER APPEARS TO BE TWO
11 RELATIVELY APPARENT STAINS THERE THAT APPEAR APPARENT WITH
12 THE APPEARANCE OF BLOOD.
13 SIMILARLY, ON THE UPPER -- ON THE RIGHT-HAND
14 SHOULDER AS YOU LOOK AT THE RIGHT HAND, WHICH ACTUALLY
15 WOULD BE THE LEFT-HAND SHOULDER OF THE SHIRT ITSELF,
16 THERE 1 S ALSO SOME ADDITIONAL RED STAINS, APPARENTLY BLOOD.
17 Q. PEOPLE S 91 IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE BACK SIDE OF
1
18 THAT SAME T-SHIRT?

19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. IS THERE ANYTHING OF NOTE ON THE BACK OF THE
21 T-SHIRT?
22 A. NO, SIR. SOME SLIGHT DISCOLORATION ON A -- WHAT
23 WOULD BE THE UPPER RIGHT SHOULDER BLADE AREA, BUT I DIDN 1 T
24 IDENTIFY THAT.
25 Q. THE SHIRT WAS IMPOUNDED?
26 A. YES, SIR, IT WAS.
27 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT 1 S BEEN MARKED AS
28 PEOPLE 1 S 152 -- IT 1 S GOT "ITEM 37" WRITTEN ON THE BOTTOM
1445
1 OF IT -- IS THAT THAT T-SHIRT?

2 A. YES, SIR.
3 Q. DID YOU FIND ANYTHING OF INTEREST IN ANY OTHER
4 PART OF THIS VEHICLE OR OF ANY OTHER VEHICLES?
5 A. IN THIS PARTICULAR VEHICLE, NO, OTHER THAN THERE
6 WAS -- I MADE SOME NOTE OF THE DAMAGE TO THE TRUNK AREA
7 WHERE VICTOR RAMOS WAS HIDING WHERE IT HAD TO BE PRIED
8 OPEN IN ORDER TO GET HIM OUT OF THE CAR. OTHER THAN THAT,
9 THAT WAS ALL OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE IN THAT PARTICULAR CAR.
10 TWO OF THE OTHER VEHICLES THAT WERE PROCESSED,
11 THE ONE BELONGING TO MS. CASTRO, HAD A BAGGIE OF SEASHELLS
12 PRESENT WITHIN THE CAR, AND ALSO THE CAR THAT WAS
13 REGISTERED TO MS. BANUELOS ALSO HAD A SIMILAR TYPE OF
14 BAGGIE OF SEASHELLS PRESENT IN THAT VEHICLE AS WELL.
15 Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU FOUR EXHIBITS: 67 THROUGH
16 70. IF YOU COULD LOOK AT THOSE TO YOURSELF FOR A MOMENT,
17 DETECTIVE.
19 THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. WE'LL START WITH PEOpLE'S 67. IS THIS A VIEW OF
24 THE INTERIOR OF MS. BANUELOS' TOYOTA CAMRY?
25 A. IT IS.
26 Q. WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT FROM THIS VANTAGE POINT?
27 A. IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH YOU SEE THE CENTER CONSOLE
28 AREA JUST BEHIND WHAT APPEARS TO BE A GATORADE BOTTLE.
1446
1 THE TOP IS OPENED AND YOU CAN SEE PARTIALLY TWO OF THE
2 SEASHELLS THAT ARE PRESENT WITHIN THAT CONSOLE.
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 68, IS THIS A CLOSE-UP OF
7 THAT CENTER CONSOLE?
9 Q. WE CAN SEE AT LEAST THREE SEASHELLS.
10 A. YES, SIR.
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 69, WHICH VEHICLE ARE WE
15 LOOKING AT IN PEOPLE'S 69?
16 A. THAT IS THE VEHICLE THAT IS REGISTERED TO
17 MS. CASTRO.
18 Q. IS THIS THE FRONT OR REAR OF THE VEHICLE?
19 A. THE REAR PASSENGER SEAT AREA.
20 Q. WHAT ITEM OF INTEREST CAN WE SEE IN PEOPLE'S 69?
21 A. YOU SEE IN WHAT WOULD BE THE RIGHT REAR SEAT
22 NEXT TO THE -- IT LOOKS LIKE "THE HULK" PLAY STATION 2
23 GAME, THERE'S A PLASTIC BAG THAT CONTAINS SEASHELLS.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. PEOPLE'S 70 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT SAME BAG?
1447
1 Q. WITH MULTIPLE SEASHELLS INSIDE?

2 A. YES, SIR.
3 Q. LET'S GO BACK A MOMENT TO PEOPLE'S 67. DID YOU
4 FIND ANY PERSONAL EFFECTS OF MS. BANUELOS INSIDE OF HER
5 CAR?
6 A. YES.
8 A. A PURSE WITH HER IDENTIFICATION CONTAINED WITHIN
9 IT.
10 Q. WAS THERE A WALLET IN IT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. I'M ASSUMING THERE WAS ALSO PROBABLY MAKEUP AND
13 THINGS OF THAT NATURE INSIDE THE PURSE?
14 A. I BELIEVE SO.
15 Q. WHERE WAS THIS PURSE FOUND?
16 A. IN THE FRIGHT RONT [SIC] PASSENGER SEAT AREA OF
17 THE CAR.
18 Q. THE FRONT RIGHT PASSENGER SEAT AREA? YOU SAID
19 SOMETHING ELSE.
20 A. THE RIGHT FRONT SEAT AREA. SORRY.
21 Q. SO THE SEAT WE CAN SEE HERE WITH THE BLACK
22 BAGGIE ON IT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND WAS IT ON THE SEAT OR WAS IT DOWN AT THE
25 FOOT AREA?
26 A. AT THE FLOOR -- ON THE FLOOR.
27 Q. THAT WOULD BE THE SAME WINDOW THAT WAS ROLLED
28 DOWN, CORRECT?
1448
1 A. YES, SIR.
2 Q. AFTER YOU WERE FINISHED AT THE SCENE, DID YOU
3 HAVE A CHANCE ALSO TO VIEW THE AUTOPSY?
4 A. I DID.
5 Q. WHY DID YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE AUTOPSY?
6 A. TO BEGIN GATHERING SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
7 REGARDING THE SHOOTING, TO SEE THAT THE INJURIES THAT WERE
8 PRESENT ON MR. LOPEZ WERE CONSISTENT WITH THE CRIME SCENE.
9 ALSO TO BE PRESENT WHEN THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE THAT WERE
10 RECOVERED BY OUR FORENSIC SPECIALIST -- TO ACTUALLY VIEW
11 THOSE ITEMS BEING RECOVERED AND -- WHICH WERE LATER
12 IMPOUNDED BY HER.
13 Q. IS THIS COMMON PRACTICE?
~ 14 A. IT IS.
15 Q. WERE THERE ITEMS THAT WERE SEIZED AFTER THE
16 AUTOPSY?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT ITEMS WERE THOSE?
19 A. THE BULLETS THAT WERE RECOVERED FROM MR. LOPEZ.
20 THERE WERE ALSO SEVERAL VIALS OF BLOOD THAT WERE COLLECTED
21 AT THE AUTOPSY. A PORTION OF THE RIB BONE IS REMOVED AND
22 COLLECTED AT THE AUTOPSY. THE FORENSIC PERSON WHO WORKS
23 WITHIN THE MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE ROLLS INKED
24 FINGERPRINTS OF THE DECEDENT, AND THOSE ARE ALSO PROVIDED
25 TO US.
26 Q. THE BULLETS THAT YOU RECOVERED, YOU'VE SEEN THEM
27 SEVERAL TIMES, MARKED IN PHOTOGRAPHS 92, 93, 94 AND 95,
28 ARE THOSE THE BULLETS THAT WERE RECOVERED AND PHOTOGRAPHED
1449
r 1 WHILE AT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE?

2 A. THEY ARE, SIR.
3 Q. ALSO NOW SHOWING YOU FOUR MORE EXHIBITS --
4 PEOPLE'S 209, 210, 211 AND 212,-- FOUR HEAT-SEALED BAGS,
5 EACH CONTAINING AN EXPENDED BULLET, ARE THOSE THE ACTUAL
6 BULLETS THAT YOU WERE RECOVERING AT THE M.E. 'S OFFICE?
7 A. YES, SIR.
8 Q. FOCUSING YOUR ATTENTION BACK ON TO PEOPLE'S 241,
9 SPECIFICALLY ITEMS 16 AND 17 -- WHAT ARE ITEMS 16 AND 17
10 IN PEOPLE'S 241?
11 A. 16 AND 17 WERE A PAIR OF BLACK LEATHER-LIKE
12 GLOVES OR LEATHER GLOVES THAT WERE RECOVERED FROM THE YARD
13 AREA OF THE RESIDENCE ON THE CORNER OF FRANKLIN AND
14 CUYAMACA.
15 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT TO VIEW THESE BEFORE THEY WERE
16 RECOVERED?
17 A. I WAS.
18 Q. DID YOU RECOVER THEM OR WERE THEY RECOVERED BY
19 ANOTHER PERSON?
20 A. THEY WERE RECOVERED BY FORENSIC SPECIALIST
21 SANDERS.
22 Q. LET'S FLASH BACK TO THOSE FOR ONE MOMENT.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S NOW MARKED BEHIND YOU AS
27 PEOPLE'S 33, CAN WE SEE AT LEAST ONE OF THE GLOVES IN THAT
28 PHOTOGRAPH?
1450
1 A. YES, SIR.
2 Q. WHERE IS IT?
3 A. IT'S -- LOOKS LIKE IT'S ON THE DRIVEWAY EDGE
4 BEFORE YOU START GETTING INTO THE GRASS OR WEEDY AREA OF
5 THE LAWN.
6 Q. PEOPLE'S 34, WE CAN SEE THAT GLOVE AND ALSO THE
7 SECOND ONE -- OR AT LEAST THE SECOND ONE'S LOCATION --
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. -- MARKED BY PLACARDS 16 AND 17?
10 A. THEY ARE.
11 Q. THE WHITE STUFF WE CAN SEE ON THE GRASS, WHAT IS
12 THAT?
13 A. SOME DEW, MOISTURE THAT WAS PRESENT IN THE
14 GRASSY AREAS OF THAT AS WELL AS THE PARK.
15 Q. SO THIS DEW WAS PRESENT PRIOR TO THE GLOVES
16 ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY BEING PICKED UP AND PUT INTO EVIDENCE?
17 A. YES, SIR.
18 Q. PEOPLE'S 35 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE RIGHT-HAND
19 GLOVE, PLACARD 16?
20 A. YES, SIR.
21 Q. PEOPLE'S 36 IS A PICTURE OF THE OTHER GLOVE,
22 PLACARD NO. 17?
23 A. YES, SIR.
24 Q. DID YOU TOUCH THESE GLOVES AT ALL BEFORE YOU
25 PICKED THEM UP?
26 A. NO, SIR.
27 Q. DID YOU DETERMINE IF THEY WERE DRY OR WET AT
28 ALL?
1451
1 A. I DID NOT.
2 Q. WOULD THAT ALL BE DONE BY THE FORENSIC
3 SPECIALIST?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. DID YOU ASSIST DETECTIVE HOWIE IN NOTIFYING
6 MOISES LOPEZ'S PARENTS?
7 A. NO, I DID NOT.
8 Q. THAT WAS DONE JUST BY DETECTIVE HOWIE?
9 A. YES, SIR. I WAS PROCESSING THE SCENE AT THE
10 TIME.
11 Q. AT A LATER TIME IN THIS CASE, DID YOU CONTACT A
12 PERSON BY THE NAME OF FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
13 A. I DID.
14 Q. DO YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ SITTING HERE IN COURT
15 TODAY?
16 A. YES, I DO.
17 Q. PLEASE TELL US WHERE HE'S SITTING AND WHAT HE'S
18 WEARING TODAY.
19 A. YES, SIR. HE'S WEARING A DARK-COLORED SUIT WITH
20 A GRAY AND BLUISH TIE, WHITE COLLARED SHIRT, AND HE'S
21 SITTING NEXT TO HIS DEFENSE COUNSEL.
22 Q. WHEN DID YOU CONTACT -- EXCUSE ME.
23 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, MAY THE RECORD REFLECT THE
24 WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT?
25 THE COURT: YES, SO ORDERED.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. WHEN DID YOU CONTACT THE DEFENDANT?
28 A. THE EVENING HE WAS ARRESTED.
1452
1 Q. WHAT DAY WAS THAT?

2 A. FEBRUARY 11th OR 16th -- I HAVE TO LOOK IN
3 MY NOTES TO BE SURE OF THE EXACT DATE.
4 Q. IF IT WOULD HELP TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION.
5 A. YES, SIR, IT WOULD.
6 Q. PLEASE DO SO.
8 THE WITNESS: IT WOULD BE ON THE 18th OF FEBRUARY.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. AT THAT TIME WAS THE DEFENDANT BEING PROCESSED
11 OR ANYTHING OF IN A NATURE CONSISTENT WITH BEING ARRESTED?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO GET PHOTOGRAPHS OF ANY TATTOOS
14 UPON THE DEFENDANT'S PERSON?
15 A. YES, SIR.
16 Q. WERE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN BY YOU OR BY
17 ANOTHER PERSON?
18 A. BY ANOTHER PERSON.
19 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT FOR THEM?
20 A. I WAS.
21 Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A STACK OF EXHIBITS: 96
22 THROUGH 117.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. START WITH PEOPLE'S 96. IS THAT A PICTURE OF
27 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
28 A. YES, SIR.
1453
1 Q. FOR THE RECORD, THIS IS A FULL BODY FRONT SHOT,

2 FULLY CLOTHED?
4 Q. IS THIS THE CLOTHING THAT HE WAS WEARING AT THE
5 TIME OF HIS ARREST?
6 A. IT IS.
7 Q. IS HIS APPEARANCE CONSISTENT WITH THE TIME OF
8 HIS ARREST?
9 A. YES.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. PEOPLE'S 97 IS A -- IS AGAIN A FULL BODY SHOT
r
\ 14 NOW FROM THE SIDE. IT WOULD BE THE LEFT SIDE OF
15 MR. DOMINGUEZ. AGAIN, FULLY CLOTHED?
16 A. YES, SIR.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 98 IS A FULL BODY SHOT FROM THE REAR OF
21 MR. DOMINGUEZ, FULLY CLOTHED?
22 A. YES, SIR.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. PEOPLE'S 99 IS A FULL BODY SHOT FROM THE RIGHT
27 SIDE OF MR. DOMINGUEZ. AGAIN, FULLY CLOTHED?
1454

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. PEOPLE'S 100 IS A VIEW OF MR. DOMINGUEZ FROM THE
5 FRONT WITH HIS SHIRT OFF. WE CAN SEE MULTIPLE TATTOOS; IS
6 THAT CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
8 Q. FOCUSING ON JUST THE ONE THE RULER IS NEXT TO ON
9 THE RIGHT OR THE LEFT FRONT FOREARM, WHAT IS THAT
10 TATTOO OF?
11 A. I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF I CAN MAKE OUT WHAT IT IS
12 ANYMORE OR RECOGNIZE WHAT IT IS. I'M NOT SURE.
13 Q. IT'S A CLOSE-UP OF A --
~
~' (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 101 WAS MARKED
14
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 101 IS A CLOSE-UP. CAN YOU MAKE IT OUT
18 NOW, IF AT ALL?
19 A. IT APPEARS TO BE A FIGURE THAT'S THERE AND SOME
20 OTHER, I DON'T KNOW, DECORATIVE STUFF THAT'S ON THE LOWER
21 PORTION OF IT.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. PEOPLE'S 102 IS A SHOT OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S UPPER
26 LEFT ARM AND SHOULDER AREA?
27 A. YES, SIR.
28 \\
1455
~ 1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 103 WAS MARKED

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. PEOPLE'S 103 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THOSE TATTOOS.
5 HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THOSE TATTOOS ON THE LEFT UPPER ARM
6 AND SHOULDER AREA?
7 A. APPEARS TO BE SOME AZTEC-TYPE ART.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. PEOPLE'S 104 IS A FULL FRONT SHOT FROM THE WAIST
12 UP ON MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH HIS SHIRT OFF?
13 A. YES, SIR.
15 FOR IDENTIFICATION.J
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 105 IS HIGHLIGHTING A TATTOO JUST BELOW
18 THE NECK FROM COLLARBONE TO COLLARBONE?
19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. WHAT DOES THAT DAY?
21 A. ..AGONY AND ECSTASY."
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. PEOPLE'S 106 IS AGAIN A FULL FRONT SHOT OF
26 MR. DOMINGUEZ, HIGHLIGHTING A TATTOO WITH A RULER. WHAT
27 TATTOO WAS THAT?
28 A. ACTUALLY, THERE ARE TWO TATTOOS: ONE IS THE
1456
1 NAME "NATALIE," AND THE LARGER ONE THAT'S THE OUTLINE

2 LETTERS IS "O.V.P."
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. PEOPLE'S 107 IS A CLOSE-UP OF BOTH OF THOSE
7 TATTOOS, CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
8 A. YES, SIR.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 108 IS A SIDE SHOT OF MR. DOMINGUEZ --
13 IT WOULD BE THE RIGHT SIDE-- WITHHIS SHIRT OFF WITH A
14 RULER NEXT TO HIS RIGHT BICEP?
15 A. YES, SIR.
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. PEOPLE'S 109 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT SAME BICEP?
20 A. I DON'T THINK I HAVE THAT PHOTO IN HERE. I
21 DON'T BELIEVE I HAVE THAT PHOTO IN HERE, SIR.
22 Q. WE'LL GET TO IT.
23 A. BUT, YES, THAT'S WHAT IT IS, YES, LOOKING ON THE
24 SCREEN.
25 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE TATTOO YOU SEE ON THE
26 SCREEN?
27 A. IT APPEARS TO BE A COUPLE OF FEMALE HEADS THAT
28 ARE THERE. ONE -- THE LOWER HAS HORNS AND THEN THERE'S
1457
1 ONE THAT'S KIND OF TO THE REAR, MAKING IT A THIRD FEMALE.

4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. PEOPLE'S 110 IS A -- AGAIN, A RIGHT SIDE SHOT OF
6 MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH A RULER TO HIS FOREARM AREA, CORRECT?
7 A. YES, SIR.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. PEOPLE'S 111 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT SAME FOREARM
12 AREA?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT TATTOO ARE WE LOOKING AT IN THIS FOREARM?
15 A. IT HAS THE WORDS "HOOD RAISED," WHICH IS THE
16 WORD THAT'S WRITTEN THERE -- THE TWO WORDS THAT ARE
17 WRITTEN THERE. THEN THERE ARE ALSO -- IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S
18 BORDERED ON EACH END BY SEASHELLS.
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 112 IS A FULL BACK SHOT OF
23 MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH HIS SHIRT OFF, CORRECT?
24 A. YES, SIR.
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
28 Q. PEOPLE'S 113 IS A CLOSER VIEW OF THE TATTOOS ON
1458
1 HIS UPPER BACK AREA; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT, DETECTIVE?

2 A. YES, SIR.
3 Q. IN GENERAL, WHAT DO YOU SEE IN THESE TATTOOS?
4 A. LOOKS LIKE SOME MORE AZTEC-TYPE ART. THERE'S
5 ALSO A FEMALE WEARING WHAT MIGHT BE A SOMBRERO WITH A
6 SEASHELL IT LOOKS LIKE ON THE EDGE, ANOTHER SEASHELL IN
7 THE UPPER RIGHT SHOULDER PORTION OF THE TATTOOED AREA AND
8 ALSO A PARTIAL SKULL, AND THEN BELOW THAT IS "CALLE."
9 Q. "CALLE .. WOULD BE SPANISH FOR "STREET"?
10 A. YES, SIR.
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. PEOPLE'S 114 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT WORD,
15 CORRECT?
16 A. IT IS.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 115 IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE LOWER BACK
21 OF MR. DOMINGUEZ. WHAT TATTOO CAN WE SEE ON THE LOWER
22 BACK?
23 A. "3," "8."
24 Q. THE NUMERALS "3" AND "8"?
25 A. YES, SIR.
26 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 116
.. WAS MARKED
28 \\
1459
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 116 IS A SHOT OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S
3 SHOULDERS AND THE BACK OF HIS HEAD?
4 A. YES, SIR.
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
'
PEOPLE'S 117 IS A CLOSE-UP
8 Q. OF THE TATTOO ON THE
9 BACK OF HIS HEAD?
10 A. YES, SIR.
11 Q. CAN YOU MAKE OUT WHAT THAT IS?
12 A. NOT REALLY FOR SURE, AND I DON'T RECALL OFF THE
13 TOP OF MY HEAD EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE.
14 Q. WOULD THAT BE THE EXTENT OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S
15 TATTOOS THAT WERE CAPTURED ON THE DAY OF HIS ARREST?
16 A. YES, SIR.
17 Q. DETECTIVE, JUST TO WRAP THINGS UP ABOUT KIND OF
18 YOUR ROLE IN THIS CASE -- WE'VE HEARD FROM MULTIPLE
19 WITNESSES DID YOU INTERVIEW,EVERY SINGLE WITNESS IN
20 THIS CASE?
21 A. NO, SIR.
22 Q. WHY NOT?
23 A. THE WORK IS PRETTY MUCH DIVIDED AMONGST THE
24 MEMBERS OF THE TEAM. MEMBERS OF THE TEAM WILL GO OUT AND
25 CONDUCT INTERVIEWS. THOSE INTERVIEWS MAY LEAD TO OTHER
26 INTERVIEWS THAT THEY'LL CONDUCT BECAUSE IT'S MOST
27 PRACTICAL FOR THEM TO DO THEM SINCE THEY WITNESSED THE
28 PREVIOUS -- OR TALKED TO THE PREVIOUS WITNESS. SO THE
1460
1 WORK JUST KIND OF GOES AS THE CASE PROGRESSES.

2 THERE MAY BE A WITNESS THAT I'LL INTERVIEW THAT
3 WILL LEAD TO ANOTHER WITNESS, BUT THAT WORK GETS SPREAD
4 OUT THROUGHOUT THE TEAM.
5 Q. WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DO IT ALL BY
6 YOURSELF?
7 A. NO, SIR.
8 Q. DO YOU HAVE TEAM MEETINGS ON A REGULAR BASIS TO
9 SEE THE STATUS OF WHERE YOU ARE IN THE CASE?
10 A. DEPENDS ON THE CASE, BUT WE'LL SIT DOWN AND TALK
11 ABOUT THE CASE AMONGST OURSELVES. I MAY NOT KNOW WHAT
12 EVERY WITNESS IS SAYING, AS WELL AS THE OTHER MEMBERS OF
13 THE TEAM, SO WE'LL SIT DOWN AND WE'LL TALK AMONGST
14 OURSELVES AS A TEAM ABOUT INFORMATION THAT THEY'VE LEARNED
15 THROUGH THEIR WITNESS INTERVIEWS AND THAT SORT OF THING.
16 Q. SO IF YOU CAME ACROSS A WITNESS AND ANOTHER TEAM
17 MEMBER CAME ACROSS ANOTHER WITNESS, WOULD YOU COMMUNICATE
18 ABOUT WHAT EACH MAY HAVE TOLD YOU?
19 A. WE MAY.
20 Q. ONE OF THE WITNESSES YOU TALKED TO WAS ANDRES
21 LOPEZ; IS THAT CORRECT?
22 A. YES, SIR.
23 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN HE WAS TESTIFYING?
24 A. I WAS.
25 Q. WERE YOU ALSO PRESENT WHEN WE HEARD AN INTERVIEW
26 WITH YOU, DETECTIVE PINARELLI AND MR. LOPEZ WHILE AT
27 JUVENILE HALL?
28 A. YES, SIR.
1461
1 Q. IS THAT THE INTERVIEW THAT DETECTIVE PINARELLI

2 WAS ALSO TALKING ABOUT OCCURRING THE DAY AFTER HE MET
3 ANDRES?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. WAS THAT INTERVIEW RECORDED IN ITS ENTIRETY?
6 A. IT WAS.
7 Q. IS THERE ANY PART OF THAT INTERVIEW THAT IS NOT
8 ON THAT TAPE?
9 A. NO, SIR.
10 Q. WHY DID YOU RECORD THE ENTIRE CONTACT WITH
11 MR. LOPEZ AT THAT TIME?
12 A. FOR SEVERAL PURPOSES: ONE, IT WILL MINIMIZE HOW
13 MUCH TIME I HAVE TO SPEND TAKING NOTES AS I CONDUCT MY
14 INTERVIEWS. I PREFER TO FOCUS MORE ON THE PERSON AS
15 OPPOSED TO MY NOTES.
16 SO I DO IT FOR THAT PURPOSE AS WELL AS FOR -- AS
17 WE'VE DONE HERE IN COURT: WE'RE ABLE TO PLAY THOSE
18 INTERVIEWS HERE IN COURT. THAT ALLOWS THE JURY TO HEAR
19 WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID DURING THESE INTERVIEWS, AND THEN
20 ALSO TO GO BACK AND PERHAPS REFRESH MY MEMORY ON THE
21 INTERVIEW. IF I CHOOSE TO LISTEN TO THE RECORDING MYSELF,
22 I'M ABLE TO DO THAT AS WELL.
23 Q. WE ALSO HEARD ABOUT A SECOND TELEPHONIC
24 INTERVIEW WITH ANDRES LOPEZ SOMETIME LATER. DO YOU RECALL
25 THAT?
26 A. YES, SIR.
~
27 Q. WAS THAT INTERVIEW ALSO RECORDED IN ITS

28 ENTIRETY?
1462

2 Q. DID WE HEAR ALL OF IT IN COURT?
3 A. I DON'T KNOW IF WE HEARD EVERY BIT OF IT OR NOT.
4 I'M NOT SURE, BUT I BELIEVE SO.
5 Q. IN TERMS OF YOUR CONTACTS WITH MR. LOPEZ, WHY
6 WERE YOU AUDIO-RECORDING THEM?
7 A. WELL, ONE, IT ALLOWS ME -- HE DOESN'T GET TO
'
8 COME BACK AND SAY, "I DIDN'T SAY THAT" WHEN WE COME HERE
9 IN COURT BECAUSE ITS HIS OWN WORDS, SO IT MAKES IT
10 DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO COME BACK, WHICH MANY WITNESSES WILL
11 DO, AND WE'LL FIND IN OUR CASES THEY'LL RECANT WHAT THEY
12 SAID OR TELL US, "THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID." SO IT HELPS
13 WITH THAT.
14 Q. DOES IT AID IN YOUR MEMORY AGAIN?
15 A. YES, IT DOES.
16 Q. CAN IT AID IN THEIR MEMORY?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IS THERE ANYTHING FROM THAT INTERVIEW THAT'S
19 LEFT OFF? DID YOU, LIKE, TURN' OFF THE TAPE AND GO, "OKAY.
20 NOW WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE"?
21 A. NO, SIR.
22 Q. IS THIS ALSO KIND OF A CYA-TYPE MANEUVER?
23 A. NOT NECESSARILY CYA --
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. DOES THIS ALSO HELP IN PREVENTING ATTACKS BY
28 YOU -- AGAINST YOU OF MANIPULATING WITNESSES?
1463
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DID YOU PROMISE ANDRES LOPEZ ANYTHING BEFORE,
3 DURING OR AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW WITH HIM AT JUVENILE HALL?
4 A. NO, I DID NOT.
5 Q. DID YOU PROMISE HIM ANYTHING BEFORE, DURING OR
6 AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW WITH HIM ON THE PHONE AT A LATER
7 DATE?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. DID YOU SAY HE WOULD GET LESS TIME IF HE
10 COOPERATED DURING EITHER OF THESE INTERVIEWS?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. DID YOU SAY YOU COULD GET HIM OFF PROBATION
13 DURING EITHER OF THESE INTERVIEWS?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. DID YOU SAY YOU COULD GIVE HIM MONEY OR ANYTHING
16 ELSE THAT WOULD HELP HIM OUT DURING THESE INTERVIEWS?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW WITH ANDRES LOPEZ AT
19 JUVENILE HALL, DID HE REMAIN IN JUVENILE HALL?
20 A. BETWEEN THAT AND THE OTHER JUVENILE DETENTION
21 FACILITY OUT AT CAMP BARRETT.
22 Q. SO HE WASN'T TAKEN OUT AND BROUGHT HOME TO BE
23 WITH ANYBODY BECAUSE HE TALKED TO YOU?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. ARE YOU ALSO FAMILIAR WITH WHAT'S KNOWN AS
26 COOPERATING INDIVIDUALS?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WHAT ARE COOPERATING INDIVIDUALS?
1464
1 A. 1
THEY RE PEOPLE WHO COME FORWARD AND PROVIDE
2 INFORMATION TO LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT IN SOME CASES WANT TO
3 REMAIN ANONYMOUS AND TO HAVE THAT NOT -- THAT INFORMATION
4 NOT DIVULGED.
5 Q. THE TERM "COOPERATING INDIVIDUAL," IT DOESN 1 T
1
6 MEAN THE PERSON S A NICE PERSON AND WANTS TO COOPERATE
7 WITH THE POLICE, DOES IT?
8 A. OH, NO, NOT AT ALL.
9 Q. HAS IT ALSO BEEN CALLED "CONFIDE~TIAL INFORMANT"
10 FROM TIME TO TIME?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. THAT WOULD BE THE OLDER TERMINOLOGY?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. IN TERMS OF THOSE TYPES OF WITNESSES BEING USED
15 AT A COURT HEARING, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH ANY PROCEDURE
16 THAT MUST BE DONE PRIOR TO THEIR TESTIFYING?
19 THE WITNESS: DEPENDS UPON THE INDIVIDUAL. YOU KNOW,
20 SOME PEOPLE WHO COOPERATE WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR THEIR
21 OWN SAFETY. YOU MIGHT WANT TO BRING THEM IN THROUGH THE
22 BACK DOOR OF THE COURT AS OPPOSED TO HAVING THEM WALK DOWN
23 THE HALLWAY.
24 IN THIS CASE, WITH MR. LOPEZ BEING THAT
25 COOPERATIVE INDIVIDUAL, HE HAD TO BE FLOWN HERE FROM
26 ANOTHER LOCATION, YOU KNOW, INTO
.. SAN DIEGO AND ULTIMATELY
27 PROVIDED WITH ROOM AND BOARD WHILE HE WAS HERE DURING THE
28 TIME THAT HE WAS TESTIFYING AND THEN ULTIMATELY BE SENT
1465
1 BACK TO WHERE HE CAME FROM.

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. NOW, THERE'S ANOTHER FORM OF COOPERATING
4 INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE SOME SORT OF CRIMINAL CONVICTION
5 THEY'RE WISHING TO GET EITHER LOWERED OR DO LESS TIME ON
6 IN TERMS OF THEIR TESTIMONY. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS
7 GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS?
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH PROCEDURES THAT MUST BE
10 GONE THROUGH IN ORDER TO HAVE THOSE PEOPLE TESTIFY IN
11 COURT?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. WHAT IS THAT PROCEDURE?
14 A. THAT PARTICULAR PROCEDURE WOULD REQUIRE THE
15 DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AS WELL AS THE COUNSEL WHO IS
16 REPRESENTING THAT PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL IN WHICH WE
17 CONDUCT WHAT THEY CALL A "FREE TALK" WHERE WE WILL ALL GET
18 TOGETHER. THERE IS A CONTRACT OR AGREEMENT THAT'S MADE
..
19 AMONGST THE ATTORNEYS AND THE DEFENDANT. THE POLICE
20 OFFICER WHO IS HANDLING THE CASE IS GENERALLY AT THOSE AS
21 WELL AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE D.A.'S OFFICE AS WELL AS
22 THE DEFENDANT'S COUNSEL.
23 Q. THESE TYPES OF FREE TALKS ARE ALSO VIDEO AND
24 AUDIO-RECORDED, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?
25 A. YES, SIR.
26 Q. AND THIS FREE TALK IS JUST THE BEGINNING WHERE
27 WE SEE -- OR YOU SEE WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION THE PERSON
28 MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE?
1466
1 A. YES.
2 Q. THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S INVOLVED, CORRECT?
3 A. YES, SIR.
4 Q. THE INDIVIDUAL'S ATTORNEY IS INVOLVED, CORRECT?
5 A. YES, SIR.
6 Q. IF IT'S YOUR CASE, YOU WOULD PROBABLY BE
7 INVOLVED?
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. IF THIS PERSON IS THEN GOING TO TESTIFY IN
10 COURT, DOES THIS HAPPEN ALL OVER AGAIN WITH ANOTHER
11 CONTRACT THAT SUPERSEDES THE FIRST CONTRACT?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. IS THIS CONTRACT DOES IT DETAIL WHAT BENEFITS
14 THAT PERSON IS GOING TO BE GETTING?
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. SO IF A PERSON HAD A ROBBERY THEY WERE INVOLVED
20 IN AND WERE FACING 10 YEARS -- LET'S JUST USE NUMBERS LIKE
21 THAT -- AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO DO 10 YEARS, AND THEY HAD
22 INFORMATION ON ANOTHER CASE, IF THIS PERSON HAD
23 INFORMATION THAT WAS USEFUL, THEY WOULD HAVE TO SIGN A
24 CONTRACT JUST TO TALK ABOUT IT'TO BEGIN WITH?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. AND THEN IF THAT PERSON WAS GOING TO BE USED AS
27 A WITNESS, THERE'S A SECOND CONTRACT THAT THE PERSON WOULD
28 HAVE TO SIGN DETAILING THEIR BENEFITS, CORRECT?
1467
2 Q. THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY WOULD SIGN IT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. IF YOU'RE A WITNESS JO THIS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO
5 SIGN IT?
7 Q. THE PERSON THAT'S GOING TO BE A WITNESS WOULD
8 HAVE TO SIGN IT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. AS WELL AS THAT PERSON'S ATTORNEY?
11 A. YES, SIR.
12 Q. DID ANYTHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN IN THIS CASE WITH
13 ANDRES LOPEZ?
14 A. NO, SIR.
15 Q. DID ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN THIS CASE HAPPEN WITH
16 ANYBODY CONNECTED TO THIS CASE AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?
17 A. NO, SIR.
18 Q. OF THE PEOPLE YOU SAW TESTIFY IN COURT,
19 EXCEPTING THE ONE DAY YOU WERE GONE, DID ANY OF THOSE
20 PEOPLE HAVE CONTRACTS?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW THE NAME OF A GLENNYS BERUMAN?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DOES MS. BERUMAN HAVE A CONTRACT TO TESTIFY AS A
25 WITNESS IN THAT REGARD?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN SOMEBODY TESTIFY WITHOUT A
28 CONTRACT WHEN THEY'RE GETTING ALL THESE BENEFITS?
1468
1 A. NO.
2 Q. THAT'S IN 20-PLUS YEARS OF BEING A POLICE
3 OFFICER?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. DO THE DETECTIVES MAKE THESE SORTS OF DEALS
6 WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. WHY?
9 A. WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO. WE'RE NOT IN A POSITION
10 TO MAKE PROMISES TO ANYONE. I CAN'T MAKE A PROMISE THAT'S
11 BEYOND MY SCOPE OF WHAT I'M ALLOWED TO DO, SO I'M NOT
12 ALLOWED TO DO THAT, AND I WOULD NEVER DO IT JUST BECAUSE
13 THEY WOULD COME BACK AND SAY, "WELL, DETECTIVE LAMBERT
14 PROMISED ME THIS," AND I JUST DON'T DO THAT. THAT'S NOT
15 HOW I PRACTICE.
16 Q. FINALLY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, GIVEN THE FACT THAT
17 ANDRES LOPEZ, BEING UNDER THE AGE OF 18 -- HIS CASES WERE
18 HANDLED IN THE JUVENILE SYSTEM, CORRECT?
20 Q. -- THE JUVENILE COURT WOULD HAVE TO BE INVOLVED
21 ACTUALLY WITH THE MAKING OF SUCH CONTRACTS, CORRECT?
22 A. I WOULD ASSUME SOMEWHERE WITHIN THERE, YES.
23 Q. AND IF THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT WITH THE COURT AND
24 THE D.A. 'S OFFICE AND MR. LOPEZ'S ATTORNEY, THAT WOULD BE
25 A RECORD THAT COULD BE FOUND BY ANYBODY ASSOCIATED WITH
26 THIS CASE?
27 A. YES.
28 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
1469

2 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE THE NOON
3 RECESS. PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
4 CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. LET US PLAN ON
5 RECONVENING AT 1:30 THIS AFTERNOON. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN
6 RECESS.
7 (THE LUNCH RECESS WAS TAKEN AT 11:58 A.M.)
8 * * *
9
10
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12
13
r 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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28
1470
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, MONDAY. APRIL 11. 2011

2 1:30 P.M.
3
4 (THE JURY ENTERED AT 1:32 P.M.)
5 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. GOOD
6 AFTERNOON TO EACH OF YOU. AS IS OUR RULE, IF YOU NEED TO
7 STAND UP AND STRETCH OR TAKE A DEEP BREATH, FEEL FREE TO
8 DO THAT, JUST TRY NOT TO BLOCK THE VIEW OF YOUR NEIGHBOR.
9 IF ANYONE NEEDS A BREAK AT ANY TIME, JUST COMMUNICATE THAT
10 AND IT WILL OCCUR. I APPRECIATE YOUR CONTINUED
11 CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS CASE.
12 ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES ARE
13 PRESENT. DETECTIVE LAMBERT HAS RESUMED THE STAND AND WE
14 ARE TO CROSS-EXAMINATION.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY PROCEED.
17
20 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE.
21 A. GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
22 Q. DETECTIVE, YOU WORK IN HOMICIDE TEAM 5, RIGHT?
23 A. YES, I DO.
24 Q. TELL ME, HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED THERE? DID
25 YOU SAY EIGHT YEARS?
26 A. SEVEN YEARS.
27 Q. SEVEN YEARS AS A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE?
28 A. YES, SIR.
1471
1 Q. HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE LONGER THAN THAT,

2 THOUGH?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE?
5 A. SOMEWHERE AROUND 17 YEARS.
6 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED FOR THE POLICE
7 DEPARTMENT?
8 A. 22 YEARS.
9 Q. 22 YEARS. SO TELL ME, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU
10 WORKED IN HOMICIDE TEAM 5 AS A DETECTIVE OR IN ANY
11 CAPACITY AS A DETECTIVE AND YOU WENT THAT WHOLE TIME
12 WITHOUT EVER SOLVING A CASE?
13 A. WHEW. THAT WOULD BE SOME HORRIBLY BAD LUCK, FOR
14 ONE. I DON'T KNOW. I'VE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT
15 HAPPENING, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF SEVEN
16 YEARS WENT BY AND WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SOLVE A CASE.
17 Q. IT'S FAIR TO SAY, THOUGH, THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE
18 TRYING TO SOLVE THESE THINGS, RIGHT?
19 A. ABSOLUTELY.
20 Q. YOU TAKE SOME PERSONAL PRIDE IN YOUR WORK?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. OKAY. BECAUSE AS A POLICE DETECTIVE, YOU KNOW,
23 IF YOU GET A CASE, YOU GET A PERSONAL SATISFACTION FROM
24 CLOSING THE CASE, OR IS THAT WHAT YOU'D CALL IT?
25 A. YES' "CLOSING THE CASE' II YES.
26 Q. WHAT IS CLOSING THE CASE?
27 A. IT'S WHEN -- THEY CLOSE IN VARIOUS WAYS. IN
28 SOME CASES IT'S WHERE YOU ARREST THE SUSPECT IN THE CASE,
1472
1 THE PERPETRATOR OF THE CRIME, AND ULTIMATELY IT GOES TO

2 TRIAL AND IS RESOLVED IN THAT FASHION. SOMETIMES YOUR
1
3 SUSPECTS DON T GET THAT FAR BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES BECOME
4 VICTIMS OF HOMICIDES IN SOME CASES, AND THAT MAY HAPPEN.
5 SOME OF THE CASES BECOME INACTIVATED, NOT NECESSARILY
6 1
CLOSED, BECAUSE YOU JUST AREN T ABLE TO GET SOME
7 RESOLUTION TO IT.
8 Q. DO YOU HAVE PRESSURE FROM YOUR SUPERVISORS TO
9 SOLVE CASES?
10 A. NO, SIR.
11 Q. HOW ABOUT FROM THE VtCTIM 1 S FAMILY?
12 A. I MEAN, VICTIMS WANT THEIR CASES, YOU KNOW,
13 THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS 1 MURDERS SOLVED, I THINK, AS
14 EVERYBODY WOULD WANT IF THEY WERE A FAMILY MEMBER, SO, I
15 MEAN, THEY CERTAINLY WANT IT TO HAPPEN, BUT UNFORTUNATELY
16 IT JUST DOESN 1 T ALWAYS HAPPEN.
17 Q. WOULD YOU SAY THAT IN ANY CASE, INCLUDING A
18 HOMICIDE CASE, THE LONGER FROM THE DATE OF THE OFFENSE,
19 THE LONGER TIME GOES BY, THE HARDER AND HARDER IT IS OR
20 THE LESS LIKELY IT IS TO BE SOLVED OR CLOSED?
21 A. I THINK THAT REALLY VARIES FROM CASE TO CASE.
22 SOME CASES ARE SOLVED VERY QUI~KLY AT THE TIME OF THE
23 INCIDENT AND OTHER CASES TAKE SOMETIMES YEARS, YOU KNOW.
24 1
TIME DOES NOT ALWAYS NECESSARILY MEAN IT S LESS LIKELY TO
25 BE SOLVED.
26 THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE TIME SOMETIMES
27 WORKS TO YOUR BEST INTEREST IN SOME HOMICIDE
28 INVESTIGATIONS BECAUSE YOU RE WAITING FOR LAB RESULTS TO
1
1473
1 COME BACK IN OR MAYBE YOUR PERPETRATOR GETS ARRESTED IN

2 ANOTHER STATE AND THEN YOU ARE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THAT
3 PERSON IN ANOTHER JURISDICTION COMPLETELY, YOU KNOW, VIA
4 SOME DNA EVIDENCE FROM YOUR CASE. SO SOMETIMES TIME WORKS
5 TO YOUR ADVANTAGE WHERE OTHER TIMES IT DOES NOT.
6 Q. DETECTIVE, YOU WERE THE CASE AGENT IN THIS CASE,
7 RIGHT?
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. THE CASE AGENT IS, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, IN
10 CHARGE OF THE INVESTIGATION?
11 A. I WON'T SAY I'M IN CHARGE. EVERYTHING KIND OF
12 FILTERS THROUGH TO ME. THE CASE AGENT, AS WAS EXPLAINED
13 BY SERGEANT HOWIE THIS MORNING, IS TASKED WITH PROCESSING
14 THE CRIME SCENE, PARTICIPATING IN THE AUTOPSY, SOMETIMES
15 WRITING WARRANTS, PROCESSING VEHICLES THAT ARE INVOLVED IN
16 THE CASE, AND WHEN INTERVIEWS AND WORK IS DONE, THE
17 PAPERWORK USUALLY FILTERS TO ME, AND THEN I PUT THEM IN
18 THOSE BIG BINDERS LIKE YOU SEE ON COUNSEL'S DESK THERE TO
19 SUBMIT TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND TO OUR
20 RECORDS DIVISION.
21 PART OF MY OTHER JOBS WOULD INCLUDE PUTTING IN
22 LAB REQUESTS TO HAVE CERTAIN ITEMS OF EVIDENCE PROCESSED
23 BY A FORENSIC SPECIALIST OR BY OUR CRIMINALIST IN OUR DNA
24 LAB LIKE SHAWN MONTPETIT LIKE YOU MET LAST WEEK.
25 Q. DETECTIVE, IN THE HOMICIDE DEPARTMENT -- YOU'RE
26 IN HOMICIDE TEAM 5 -- HOW MANY HOMICIDE TEAMS ARE THERE?
27 A. WE HAVE FIVE TEAMS THAT WORK ACTIVE CASES,
28 MEANING THE NEW ONES THAT HAPPEN, AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE A
1474
1 COLD CASE TEAM.

2 Q. NOW, IN THE HOMICIDE UNIT OR AREA OF THE POLICE
3 DEPARTMENT -- THAT'S DOWNTOWN WHERE YOU WORK, RIGHT?
5 Q. IN THAT AREA IS THERE SOMEWHERE, A BOARD, WHERE
6 IT LISTS ALL THE OPEN CASES?
7 A. IT VARIES FROM TEAM TO TEAM. SOME TEAMS -- I
8 THINK PROBABLY MOST TEAMS HAVE THEM. IT'S NOT A
~
9 REQUIREMENT. WE DO IT ON OUR TEAM SO THAT WE'RE ABLE TO

10 JUST LOOK AT THIS BOARD AND KNOW WHAT THE STATUS IS OF THE
11 CASE. IT LISTS INFORMATION ON THERE WHO THE SUSPECT IS,
12 IF WE KNOW, CERTAINLY WHO THE VICTIM IS, THE CASE NUMBER,
13 THE DATE OF OCCURRENCE, WHAT BEAT IT OCCURRED ON AND ON
~ 14 OUR BOARD WHO THE SCENE INVESTIGATOR IS. FOR INSTANCE, IN
15 THIS CASE IT WAS ME. IF THERE IS A D.A. ASSIGNED, THAT
16 D.A. WILL BE THERE AND THEN THE STATUS WHETHER OR NOT THE
17 CASE IS OPEN OR CLOSED.
18 Q. THE BOARD, DOES IT LIST THE CASE AGENT?
19 A. WE LIST IT AS "SCENE INVESTIGATOR."
20 Q. IT'S THE SAME THING?~
21 A. SAME THING PRETTY MUCH, YES.

22 Q. WHEN A CASE GETS CLOSED, IT GETS WIPED OFF THE
23 BOARD? IS THAT HOW IT WORKS?
24 A. NO. WHEN A CASE GETS SOLVED -- WE USE A RED AND
25 GREEN COLOR. IF IT'S GREEN, IT'S STILL OPEN AND ACTIVE
26 AND WE'RE WORKING IT; IF IT'S RED, THAT MEANS IT'S CLOSED
27 SO WE CAN QUICKLY GLANCE AT IT AND REALIZE, OKAY, THIS
28 CASE IS CLOSED.
1475
1 Q. AND THEN YOU KEEP THE BOARD -- OBVIOUSLY AT SOME

2 POINT YOU JUST CAN'T KEEP LISTING THE CASES. AT SOME
3 POINT YOU HAVE TO PURGE CASES FROM THE BOARD, I ASSUME?
4 A. WHAT WE DO ON MY TEAM, FOR INSTANCE, IS EACH
5 YEAR WE HAVE A NEW BOARD MADE, SO WHEN THE NEW CALENDAR
6 YEAR STARTS, WE GET A NEW BOARD MADE BY OUR CRIME ANALYSIS
7 UNIT. WE PULL THE PREVIOUS YEAR'S BOARD DOWN AND WE HAVE
8 A LITTLE SPOT WHERE WE KEEP THEM THERE WHERE WE CAN STILL
9 PULL THOSE CASES OUT, AND AS WE SOLVE THE OLDER CASES, WE
10 WILL MAKE THOSE UPDATES ON THE OLD BOARDS THAT ARE NOT
11 HANGING ON THE WALL ANYMORE.
12 Q. SO ONLY THE OPEN CASES GO ONTO THE NEW BOARD FOR
13 THE YEAR?
14 A. PRETTY MUCH, YEAH, THAT WOULD BE ACCURATE.
15 Q. SO WHEN YOU FINALLY CLOSE A CASE AND YOU MARK IT
16 ON THE BOARD, DO YOU EVER HAVE, LIKE, A CELEBRATION WITH
17 THE REST OF THE TEAM?
18 A. NO, NOT TYPICALLY, NO.
11
19 Q. DO YOU EVER GO OUT TO COFFEE AND SAY, MAN, WE
20 DID A GOOD JOB ON THAT ONE"?
21 A. I WON'T SAY THAT WE NEVER SIT DOWN AND PAT
22 OURSELVES ON THE BACK, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A DIFFICULT CASE
23 TO WORK. SOME OF THESE CASES INVOLVE MANY HOURS, MONTHS
24 TO WORK, AND, I MEAN, I WON'T LIE AND SAY THAT I'M NOT
25 PROUD AND HAPPY WHEN WE SOLVE ONE.
26 Q. DETECTIVE, SWITCHING TOPICS FOR A MOMENT, YOU
27 WERE TALKING ON DIRECT ABOUT THE SCENE THAT NIGHT AND SOME
28 OF THOSE PHOTOS AND HOW YOUR OPINION WAS THAT IT WASN'T
1476
1 THAT DARK OUT, RIGHT?

2 A. YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
3 Q. FOR THE RECORD, I'M TALKING ABOUT
~
4 SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008, OBVIOUSLY.

5 A. YES, SIR.
6 Q. I SEE YOU BROUGHT WITH YOU A PAIR OF GLASSES,
7 RIGHT?
8 A. YES, SIR, I DID.
9 Q. THOSE ARE DISTANCE GLASSES?
10 A. YES. I SEE BETTER WITH THEM AT A DISTANCE THAN
11 I DO WITHOUT THEM.
12 Q. I MEAN AS OPPOSED TO READING GLASSES.
14 Q. WHEN WERE YOU PRESCRIBED THOSE DISTANCE GLASSES?
'
15 A. NOVEMBER I THINK IT WAS.
16 Q. OF 2010?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. SO RECENTLY?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE BEEN PRESCRIBED
21 EYEGLASSES?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. I'M NOT TRYING TO PRY INTO YOUR LIFE, DETECTIVE,
24 BUT IT DOES SEEM RELEVANT AT THIS TIME: HOW OLD ARE YOU?
25 A. I WILL BE 47 IN JUNE.
26 Q. 47, OKAY. WERE YOU 47 WHEN YOU WERE PRESCRIBED
27 THE GLASSES?
28 A. NO. I'M 46 NOW, SO I COULDN'T HAVE BEEN.
1477
1 Q. I'M SORRY. I MISHEARD YOU. YOU WERE 46 WHEN

2 YOU WERE PRESCRIBED THE GLASSES?
3 A. YES, SIR.
4 Q. YOU'RE GOING TO BE 47 IN JUNE?
5 A. YES, SIR.
6 Q. SO WHEN DID YOU START NOTICING A PROBLEM WITH
7 YOUR EYES?
8 A. I WOULDN'T SAY IT WAS A PROBLEM, IT'S JUST
9 THINGS SOMETIMES AT A DISTANCE -- YOU KNOW, LINES AREN'T
10 AS SHARP AS I WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE, AND SO I HAD MY EYES
11 EXAMINED, AND IT'S A VERY WEAK PRESCRIPTION, BUT WHEN I
12 WEAR THEM, I DO SEE BETTER.
13 Q. OKAY. AND SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008, WHEN YOU WERE
14 TALKING ABOUT THOSE PICTURES, YOU DIDN'T HAVE A
15 PRESCRIPTION FOR GLASSES AT THAT TIME?
16 A. NO, SIR, I DID NOT.
17 Q. SO LET'S GO THROUGH THE TIMELINE OF EVENTS IN
18 THIS CASE AS YOU PERCEIVE THEM; OKAY, DETECTIVE?
19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. LET'S START WITH, YOU KNOW, SORT OF A CALL-OUT
21 INVESTIGATION. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A CALL-OUT INVESTIGATION
22 IS?
23 A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR INTERPRETATION IS OF THE
24 CALL-OUT INVESTIGATION.
25 Q. WHAT'S A CALL-OUT INVESTIGATION?
26 A. IF YOU'RE REFERRING TO IT AS OUR CALL-OUT, IN
27 THIS CASE I WAS OFF DUTY AND I WAS AT HOME. I RECEIVED A
28 TELEPHONE CALL FROM MY SERGEANT THAT WE HAD BEEN ASSIGNED
1478
1 TO INVESTIGATE A HOMICIDE THAT OCCURRED SOMEWHERE, IN THIS

2 CASE MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK. WE WERE DIRECTED TO RESPOND TO
3 THAT LOCATION, AND THEN THAT 1 S KIND OF HOW THE
4 INVESTIGATION STARTS.
5 Q. AND THEN YOU GO TO THE SCENE AND SORT OF MAKE
6 1
ALL THESE OBSERVATIONS WE RE TALKING ABOUT, FINDING ALL
7 THE PIECES OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. 1
AND THEN THAT S DONE, AND AFTERWARDS YOU
10 INTERVIEW A FEW WITNESSES, BUT SO DO THE REST OF YOUR
11 HOMICIDE TEAM, RIGHT?
12 A. I INTERVIEWED NO ONE DURING THE CALL-OUT PORTION
13 OF THE INVESTIGATION.
14 Q. AFTER THE CALL-OUT YOU INTERVIEWED A FEW
15 WITNESSES?
16 A. OH, YES, OVER A PERIOD OF MONTHS AND -- YES.
17 Q. DID YOU EVER INTERVIEW JOSE GUTIERREZ HERNANDEZ?
18 A. I BELIEVE I MAY HAVE BEEN PRESENT WHEN HE WAS
19 INTERVIEWED. I DON 1 T KNOW IF I INTERVIEWED HIM OR IF I
20 WAS PRESENT DURING HIS INTERVIEW. THERE WAS MANY OF US
21 PRESENT WHERE I WAS NOT THE PERSON ACTUALLY CONDUCTING THE
22 INTERVIEW BUT WAS PRESENT DURI~G THE INTERVIEW. I JUST
23 1
DON T RECALL WHETHER OR NOT I WAS --
24 Q. WELL, WAS IT YOU AND DETECTIVE DEE WARRICK? WAS
25 SHE THE ONE CONDUCTING THE INTERVIEW?
26 A. IT COULD BE.
27 Q. AND YOU INTERVIEWED ISHMAEL ACEVES?
28 A. THAT COULD BE THE SAME TYPE CIRCUMSTANCE, YES,
1479
1 SIR.
2 Q. TOMAS LOPEZ?
3 A. YES, SIR.
4 Q. AND SIMON CRUZ LOPEZ, THE VICTIM'S FATHER, WHO
5 TESTIFIED EARLIER TODAY?
6 A. YES, SIR.
7 Q. AND THEN AROUND DECEMBER OF 2008 OR JANUARY OF
8 2009, YOU GOT A CODIS HIT, RIGHT?
9 A. YES, SIR.
10 Q. WHAT WAS THAT CODIS HIT?
11 A. IT WAS ON A BEER BOTTLE THAT WAS SWABBED, AND
12 THE DNA HAD CAME BACK TO FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
13 Q. THAT'S THE FIRST TIME HIS NAME, FLORENCIO
14 DOMINGUEZ, POPPED UP IN THIS CASE?
15 A. WELL, ON SOME SORT OF' OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION,
16 YES, SIR.
17 Q. BUT HIS -- YOUR INVESTIGATORS HAD BEEN SHOWING
18 HIS PICTURE TO PEOPLE BEFORE THAT CODIS HIT, RIGHT?
19 A. I BELIEVE SO, YES, SIR.
20 Q. DID YOU DIRECT THEM TO DO THAT?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. SO THEY DID THAT ON THEIR OWN?
23 A. WELL, IT'S -- AS WE COMMUNICATE WITHIN THE CASE,
24 YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOOD INVESTIGATORS SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO
25 BE TOLD BY ME WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND MANY TIMES
26 DIRECTION COMES FROM MY SERGEANT, WHO WAS HERE EARLIER
27 THIS MORNING TESTIFYING.
28 Q. SO WHEN YOU GOT THE CODIS HIT ON -- IT'S FS8A,
1480
1 RIGHT?
2 A. YES, SIR.
3 Q. THAT'S THE BEER BOTTLE THAT WAS MARKED NO. 8?
5 Q. WHEN YOU GOT THAT CODIS HIT -- FIRST OF ALL, LET
6 ME ASK YOU THIS: DO YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE CAL-GANG
7 DATABASE?
8 A. I DO.
9 Q. DID YOU CHECK THE CAL-GANG DATABASE ONCE YOU GOT
10 THAT CODIS HIT?
11 A. I DID.
12 Q. SO YOU WERE ABLE TO FIND OUT THE PERSON'S
13 NICKNAME
14 A. YES, SIR.
15 Q. -- FROM THE CAL-GANG DATABASE?
16 A. THAT'S ONE SOURCE, YES, SIR.
17 Q. SO YOU KNEW "SPEEDY" WAS FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
18 WELL, LET ME BACK UP, DETECTIVE. I'LL WITHDRAW THE
19 QUESTION.
20 DID YOU CHECK THE CODIS RESULT IN THE CAL-GANG
21 DATABASE SOMETIME IN JANUARY OF 2009?
22 A. I DON'T KNOW IF I NECESSARILY CHECKED IN THE
23 CAL-GANG DATABASE BECAUSE I HAD HEARD THE NAMES "SPEEDY"
24 AND "FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ" BEFORE THAT DATE AND MAY HAVE
25 LOOKED IT UP PREVIOUS TO THAT. I'M JUST NOT SURE EXACTLY
26 WHICH DATE AND TIME I DID IT.
27 Q. OKAY. AND AT THIS POINT FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ IS
28 NOT A SUSPECT?
1481
1 A. NO, SIR.
2 Q. HE'S JUST SOMEBODY WHO'S CONNECTED TO THE CRIME
3 SCENE?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. AT THIS POINT -- NONE OF THE WITNESSES HAVE
6 ACCUSED HIM OF ANYTHING AT THIS POINT, RIGHT?
7 A. AT THE TIME OF THE CODIS HIT, NO, SIR.
8 Q. OKAY. SOMETIME IN APRIL 2009, WHICH IS ABOUT
9 APPROXIMATELY SEVEN MONTHS AFTER THE MURDER, YOU GET A
10 CALL FROM DETECTIVE PENERELLI?
11 A. I DON'T KNOW IF HE CALLED ME OR IF HE CAME TO MY
12 OFFICE, BUT IT WAS ONE OF THE TWO.
13 Q. AND HE SAYS HE'S GOT~A HOT LEAD, RIGHT?
14 A. HE SAID HE HAD SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT HAVE
15 INFORMATION ON MY CASE.
16 Q. AND YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE INTERESTED?
17 A. YES, SIR.
18 Q. SO YOU GO DOWN TO JUVENILE HALL TO INTERVIEW
19 THIS PERSON?
21 Q. AND THE PERSON I'M TALKING ABOUT IS?
22 A. ANDRES LOPEZ.
23 Q. SO THE CONVERSATION THAT DETECTIVE PENERELLI HAD
24 WITH ANDRES LOPEZ, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE DID HE RECORD IT?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. DID HE WRITE A POLICE REPORT FOR YOU TO LOOK AT
27 BEFORE YOU INTERVIEWED HIM?
28 A. NO, SIR.
1482
1 Q. SO YOU GO AND TALK TO THIS KID AT JUVENILE HALL

2 THEN, ANDRES LOPEZ?
3 A. YES, SIR.
4 Q. DID YOU GET, LIKE, A SEPARATE ROOM TO GO TO, OR
'
5 DID YOU GO TO HIS CELL? DID THEY GIVE YOU AN INTERVIEW
6 ROOM?
7 A. THEY PROVIDE US WITH INTERVIEW ROOMS. THERE'S
8 SEVERAL OF THEM AT JUVENILE HALL THAT ARE AVAILABLE FOR
9 LAW ENFORCEMENT, PROBATION OFFICERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
10 Q. THEN AS YOU'RE TALKING TO ANDRES LOPEZ, DID YOU
11 GET A SENSE THAT MAYBE HE WAS -- HAD SOME MENTAL
12 LIMITATIONS?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. DURING YOUR CONVERSATION HE ANSWERED YOUR
15 QUESTIONS APPROPRIATELY, DID HE NOT?
16 A. HE INDICATED THAT HE'UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS
17 SAYING, SO I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME,
18 so
19 Q. DID YOU CHANGE THE WAY YOU SPOKE TO ANDRES?
20 A. NO.
21 Q. YOU DIDN'T USE, LIKE, SIMPLER WORDS THAN YOU
22 NORMALLY WOULD HAVE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
23 A. I DON'T BELIEVE I DID.
24 Q. OKAY. YOU'VE WORKED GANG CASES IN THE PAST,
25 RIGHT?
26 A. YES, SIR.
27 Q. WELL, HOMICIDE TEAM ? ISN'T JUST A GANG UNIT,
28 RIGHT?
1483
1 A. OH, NO, SIR.

2 Q. BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF GANG CASES THAT YOU DO
3 WORK ON?
4 A. IT DEPENDS ON THE YEAR, BUT A FAIR PERCENTAGE OF
5 THEM, YES.
6 Q. WHEN YOU TALK TO WITNESSES WHO YOU THINK ARE IN
7 A GANG OR ASSOCIATED WITH A GANG, DO YOU TRY AND KIND OF
8 USE THEIR LINGO AS BEST YOU CAN?
'
DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL, YOU KNOW, AS YOU GET
9 A.
10 A FEEL FOR THEM, AS YOU SPEAK TO THEM. CERTAINLY IF YOU
11 TALK TO THEM ABOUT THINGS THAT -- IN THIS CASE, WITH
12 ANDRES LOPEZ, IF I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT SHELLTOWN STUFF, I
13 KNOW HE'S SHELLTOWN, SO THAT'S KIND OF A LITTLE BIT OF AN
14 ICEBREAKER SOMETIMES IN INTERVIEWS.
15 Q. SO WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED INTERVIEWING ANDRES
16 LOPEZ, HE WAS SAYING THAT HE WASN'T AT THE PARK THAT NIGHT
17 BUT HE HEARD THAT SOMEBODY NAMED "SPEEDY" WAS THE SHOOTER,
18 RIGHT? THAT'S WHAT HE WAS FIRST SAYING?
19 A. I BELIEVE SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
20 Q. AND BY THE END OF THE CONVERSATION HE WAS SAYING
21 THAT HE WAS THERE THE WHOLE TIME, HE SAW EVERYTHING THAT
22 HAPPENED, AND HE WAS ONLY FIVE FEET AWAY FROM THE SHOOTING
23 WHEN IT OCCURRED, RIGHT?
24 A. YES, SIR, HE DID MAKE THAT STATEMENT.
25 Q. LET'S TAKE A MOMENT AND GO OVER HOW HE GOT FROM
26 THOSE TWO EXTREMES.
27 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT AS 352
28 SINCE WE'VE HEARD THE WHOLE INTERVIEW.
1484
'
1 THE COURT: WE DID HEAR THE INTERVIEW IN ITS
2 ENTIRETY, DIDN'T WE?
3 MR. TROCHA: YES.
4 THE COURT: YOUR RESPONSE?
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE CAN GO SIDEBAR; WE CAN DISCUSS
6 IT SIDEBAR.
7 THE COURT: LET'S PUT THE SIDEBAR RULE IN EFFECT,
8 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THANK YOU. OFF THE RECORD FOR A
9 MOMENT.
11 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. I'VE
12 OVERRULED THE OBJECTION SUBJEC~ TO MAKING FURTHER
13 OBJECTIONS.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY FURTHER EXAMINE.
17 Q. JUST TO RECAP SINCE WE TOOK A LITTLE BREAK, AT
18 THE BEGINNING OF THE INTERVIEW ANDRES IS TELLING YOU HE
19 WASN'T THERE, HE HAD HEARD SOMETHING, AND THAT'S ABOUT IT,
20 AND THEN AT THE END OF THE INTERVIEW HE'S SAYING HE WAS
21 THERE THE WHOLE TIME, HE SAW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED, AND
22 HE WAS FIVE FEET AWAY, RIGHT?
23 A. I BELIEVE THAT'S WHERE IT FINISHED, YES, SIR.
24 Q. OKAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW HE GOT THERE IN THE
25 INTERVIEW.
26 THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT
27 BEFORE YOU, SIR?
28 THE WITNESS: NO, I DO NOT, YOUR HONOR.
1485
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I CAN PROVIDE HIM ONE, YOUR HONOR.

2 THE COURT: WE SHOULD.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE EXHIBIT
5 NUMBER IS?
6 MR. TROCHA: I DON'T.
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PROVIDING THE WITNESS A COPY OF
8 THE TRANSCRIPT.
9 THE COURT: IS IT 40?
10 MR. TROCHA: IT'S IN THE PILE.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS PILE?
12 MR. TROCHA: THE ANDRES INTERVIEW SHOULD BE ONE OF
13 THE C.D.'S ON TOP-- ON TOP.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M LOST. YOU WANT TO HELP ME?
15 THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE THE --
16 MR. TROCHA: 264. SO THE'TRANSCRIPT SHOULD BE 264-A.
18 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THAT'S TRUE.
20 Q. DURING THE INTERVIEW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU
21 ASKED HIM IS HOW OLD SPEEDY IS -- OR DETECTIVE PINARELLI
22 ASKED HIM HOW OLD. I'M REFERRING TO LINES 1 THROUGH 4,
23 DETECTIVE.
24 A. YES, SIR.
25 Q. HE INDICATED THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW.
27 Q. THEN DETECTIVE PENERELLI TOLD ANDRES THAT HE'S
'
28 AN OLDER GUY, RIGHT?
1486
1 A. WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS PHRASED IN THE WAY OF

2 A QUESTION IN THE WAY IT WAS ASKED.
3 Q. BUT IT WAS A LEADING QUESTION, WAS IT NOT? DO
4 YOU KNOW WHAT A LEADING QUESTION IS, DETECTIVE?
5 A. YES, I KNOW WHAT A LEADING QUESTION IS.
6 Q. OKAY. WAS IT A LEADING QUESTION?
7 A. I DON'T BELIEVE IT WAS IN THIS CASE. HE WAS
8 JUST ASKING HIM, "HEY, WAS HE AN OLDER GUY?"
9 Q. WELL, TO BYPASS THE SEMANTICS, WHAT WAS SAID IS,
10 "HE'S AN OLDER GUY, RIGHT?" AND THE ANSWER WAS, "YEAH."
11 A. YES, SIR.
12 Q. SO WHEN HE STARTED SAYING THAT HE HEARD SOMEONE
13 NAMED SPEEDY DID IT-- I'M GOING TO REFER YOU TO PAGE 17,
14 LINES 6 THROUGH 8.
15 A. I'M SORRY. THE LINE NUMBERS AGAIN, PLEASE?
16 Q. 6 THROUGH 8.
17 A. YOU SAID PAGE 16?
18 Q. 17.
19 A. 17, 6 THROUGH 8.
20 Q. YOU AND DETECTIVE PENERELLI -- AT THIS POINT
21 YOU'RE ASKING HIM ABOUT WHO TOLD HIM, RIGHT, WHO TOLD HIM
22 WHAT HAPPENED?
23 A. BEGINNING AT LINE 6?
24 Q. THAT'S THE COMMENT THAT I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU
25 ABOUT, BUT -- YOU KNOW, JUST TO SORT OF EXPLAIN THIS
26 COMMENT AT THIS POINT IN THE INTERVIEW, TO GIVE IT SOME
27 CONTEXT, THE TOPIC IS ANDRES IS SAYING HE HEARD WHAT HAD
28 HAPPENED.
1487
1 A. FROM A KID NAMED ANTHONY OR SOMETHING TO THAT

2 EFFECT, YES, SIR.
3 Q. SO YOU WERE SAYING, YOU KNOW, "WHO ELSE DID YOU
4 HEAR IT FROM, " RIGHT?
5 A. YES, SIR.
6 Q. AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID TO HIM IS -- AND
7 THIS IS YOU SPEAKING, LINES 6 THROUGH 8, PAGE 17 --
8 "BECAUSE I KNOW THERE'S A LOT MORE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT IT
9 OUT THERE, SO I KNOW IT'S COMING FROM OTHER SOURCES
10 BECAUSE WE'RE HEARING ABOUT IT, SO I KNOW THERE'S MORE
11 THAN THIS 12-YEAR-OLD KID NAMED ANTHONY." DO YOU REMEMBER
12 SAYING THAT TO HIM?
13 A. YES, SIR.
14 Q. YOU WERE SAYING TO HIM THAT YOU WERE HEARING
15 ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING AS HE'S HEARING; IS THAT WHAT
16 YOU'RE SAYING?
17 A. I'M JUST LETTING HIM KNOW THAT WE'RE HEARING
18 INFORMATION OUT ON THE STREET SO HE KNOWS THAT.
19 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE TERM, LIKE,
20 "REINFORCEMENT" WHEN YOU'RE INTERVIEWING A WITNESS?
21 A. NO, NOT PUT THAT WAY, NO, SIR.
22 Q. IT'S WHEN -- IF REINFORCEMENT IS WHEN YOU
23 CONFIRM WHAT THE WITNESS IS SAVING, WOULDN'T THIS BE A
24 FORM OF REINFORCING WHAT HE'S SAYING?
25 A. I DON'T KNOW IN THIS CASE. I DO UNDERSTAND THE
26 QUESTION, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S IN THIS CASE.
27 Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT PAGE 18, LINES 15 THROUGH 21.
28 AGAIN, SAME TOPIC AT THIS POINT. ANDRES IS SAYING --
1488
1 TELLING YOU THINGS THAT HE THINKS -- HE SAYS HE HEARD,

2 RIGHT? AND YOU SAY, 11
SEE, SO THIS IS WHAT WE'RE HEARING
3 TOO, SO THIS IS NOT A BIG THING. THIS IS -- OTHER PEOPLE
4 ARE SAYING THE SAME THING, SO YOU'RE NOT -- YOU KNOW, THIS
5 IS NOT ANYTHING THAT WE HAVEN'T HEARD BEFORE. THAT'S WHY
6 WE'RE WONDERING WHY YOU'RE MAKING THIS SO HARD FOR US
7 BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE, THAT ARE TALKING ABOUT THE
8 SAME STUFF, BUT WE WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU SAW IT.
9 "WE KNOW OTHER PEOPLE SAW IT. WE JUST DON'T
10 KNOW HOW YOU SAW IT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO,
11 IS FIGURE IT OUT. 11
12 SO THE QUESTION IS, AT THIS POINT YOU'VE GOTTEN

13 HIM TO ADMIT THAT HE WAS THERE, RIGHT?
14 A. YES, SIR.
15 Q. AND YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU'VE HEARD THE SAME
16 THING FROM OTHER PEOPLE?
17 A. YES, SIR.
18 Q. YOU TELL HIM THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING
19 ESSENTIALLY WHAT HE'S TELLING YOU?
20 A. YEAH, BASICALLY, YES, SIR.
21 Q. BUT ACTUALLY THAT WASN'T TRUE?
22 A. WELL, WE HAD HEARD INFORMATION PRIOR TO HIM
23 TALKING TO US ABOUT THIS CASE, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO
24 DIVULGE TO HIM TO WHAT LEVEL OR WHETHER IT BE HIGH OR LOW
25 TO HIM. HE DOESN'T NEED TO KNOW THAT.
26 Q. WELL, YOU WEREN'T HONEST WITH HIM THAT YOU WERE
27 HEARING -- BECAUSE YOU SAID, "THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HEARING
28 TOO," SAYING IT'S THE SAME THING; YOU WERE HEARING THE
1489
1 SAME THING FROM OTHER WITNESSES.

2 A. THAT'S WHAT I TOLD HIM, YES, SIR.
3 Q. BUT THAT'S NOT TRUE. YOU WEREN'T.
4 A. WE HAD HEARD -- SPEEDY'S NAME BY MONIKER HAD
5 COME UP PREVIOUS TO THIS TIME THAT HE WAS POTENTIALLY THE
6 SHOOTER IN THIS CASE, SO --
7 Q. WHO DID YOU HEAR THAT FROM?
8 A. THAT CAME IN A "CRIME STOPPERS" TAPE THAT CAME
9 ON WITHIN TWO WEEKS OR TWO AND A HALF WEEKS OF THE MURDER.
'
10 Q. WHAT IS A "CRIME STOPPERS" TAPE?
11 A. IF YOU HAVE INFORMATION ON A -- WHATEVER CRIME,
12 YOU CAN CALL 1-800-CRIME-STOPPERS AND YOUR NAME REMAINS
13 ANONYMOUS. YOU'RE ASSIGNED A NUMBER. THEY DON'T EVEN ASK
14 YOU YOUR NAME. AND WHEN THAT INFORMATION COMES, YOU
15 PROVIDE THEM THE INFORMATION, AND THAT INFORMATION'S
16 PROVIDED TO WHATEVER UNIT OR TEAM OR WHATEVER IS
17 INVESTIGATING THAT INCIDENT.
18 Q. SO YOUR TESTIMONY IS THAT YOU GOT SOME KIND OF
19 "CRIME STOPPERS" TAPE?
20 A. YES, SIR.
'
21 Q. ALL RIGHT. ON PAGE 4 -- 24, LINES 11 THROUGH
22 13.
23 A. 11 THROUGH?
24 Q. 13.
25 A. YES, SIR.
26 Q. AT THIS POINT ANDRES IS TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT
27 HE HAD BEEN DRINKING AND HE HAD BEEN SMOKING WEED, RIGHT?
28 A. YES, SIR.
1490
1 Q. AND YOU TELL HIM, "I KNOW. PUT THE -- YOU KNOW
2 WHAT? YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT GETTING DRUNK."
3 THE COURT: SLOWER PLEASE. I'M SORRY. THE REPORTER
4 NEEDS TO GET IT DOWN, SO SPEAK SLOWLY
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SORRY.
6 THE COURT: -- IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, AND I NEED THE
7 SAME THING.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. LET ME KNOW WHEN WE'RE
9 READY.
10 THE COURT: GO AHEAD.
12 Q. "I KNOW. PUT THE -- YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU KEEP
13 TALKING ABOUT GETTING DRUNK, AND ALL YOU'RE TRYING TO DO
14 IS MAKE THIS HARD FOR US TO GET THE INFORMATION. WHAT
15 YOU'RE TELLING US, LIKE I SAID, IS NOT A BIG SURPRISE."
16 YOU SEEM TO BE DISCOURAGING HIM FROM TELLING YOU
17 THAT HE WAS DRUNK OR HIGH, RIGHT?
20 YOU MAY ANSWER.
21 THE WITNESS: NO, I WASN'T DISREGARDING THE FACT THAT
22 HE SAID HE WAS DRUNK AND HIGH. I THOUGHT HE WAS USING
23 THAT MORE OF A CRUTCH, "I DON'T HAVE TO DIVULGE AS MUCH AS
24 I KNOW IF THEY THINK I COULDN'T POSSIBLY REMEMBER IT."
25 I KIND OF TOOK IT THAT WAY MORE SO THAN HE WAS
26 DRUNK AND HIGH, AND I THINK HE WAS JUST USING THAT MORE OF
27 A CRUTCH TO NOT HAVE TO TELL ME ANY MORE INFORMATION.
28 \\
1491
2 Q. WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO KNOW IF WHAT HE WAS SAYING
3 IS TRUE, BEING DRUNK AND HIGH?
4 A. WELL, THERE'S NO WAY FOR ME TO VERIFY WHETHER OR
5 NOT HE WAS DRUNK OR HIGH WHEN IT HAPPENED MONTHS BEFORE.
6 Q. HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE'S TELLING YOU? ISN'T
7 THAT A WAY TO VERIFY IT?
8 A. HE'S TELLING ME THAT, BUT THAT'S NOT VERIFYING
9 ANYTHING.
10 Q. YOU'RE SAYING YOU DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE HIS WORD
11 FOR IT?
15 Q. ON PAGE -- IT'S GOING TO BE PAGES 17 AND 18,
16 LINES 20 THROUGH 28 AND 1 THROUGH 7 RESPECTIVELY.
17 A. SAY THOSE AGAIN, PLEASE.
18 Q. PAGE 17 --
19 A. YES, SIR.
20 Q. -- AND PAGE 18.
21 A. OKAY I
22 Q. IT'S GOING TO BE LINES 20 THROUGH 28 --

23 A. OKAY I
24 Q. -- AND 1 THROUGH 7 RESPECTIVELY.

25 A. YES, SIR.
26 Q. ARE YOU READING ALONG WITH ME, DETECTIVE?
27 A. YES, SIR.
28 Q. CAN YOU JUST DO ME A FAVOR AND JUST READ WHAT I
1492
1 TOLD YOU -- AND THEN I'LL ASI< YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT
2 IT -- RIGHT NOW.
3 A. READ WHAT? THESE LINES?
4 THE COURT: READ THEM TO HIMSELF OR OUT LOUD?
5 MR . SPEREDELOZZI: NO, TO HIMSELF.
6 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT .
7 THE WITNESS: OI<AY .
9 BY MR . SPEREDELOZZI:
10 Q. ARE YOU DONE?
11 A. YES, SIR .
12 Q. THIS IS THE PART OF THE INTERVIEW WHERE YOU
13 BASICALLY GET HIM TO ADMIT HE WAS THERE, RIGHT?
14 A. IT'S YES, WE ' RE GETTING THERE, YES, SIR .
15 Q. THAT IS PART OF THE INTERVIEW?
16 A. YES .
17 Q. BASICALLY THE WAY YOU DID IT IS YOU TOLD HIM HE
~ 18 WOULDN'T BE IN TROUBLE IF HE TOLD YOU HE WAS THERE, RIGHT?
19 A. YES . HE WAS TOLD THAT SEVERAL TIMES, YES .
20 Q. AND WHEN HE FINALLY TOLD YOU, YOU SAID THAT YOU
'
21 KNEW IT ALL ALONG; I S THAT RIGHT? DID I READ THAT
22 CORRECTLY, OR AM I
23 A. LET ME CHECK AND MAKE SURE.
24 (PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS . )
25 THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T THINK HE SAID IT UP UNTIL
26 THIS POINT .
28 Q. YOU SAID, "THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HEARING TOO,"
1493
1 RIGHT?
2 A. YES, SIR.
3 Q. OKAY. PLEASE GO TO PAGES 25 AND 26. THIS IS
4 GOING TO BE LINES 23 THROUGH 28 AND THEN LINE 1 ON THE
5 NEXT PAGE.
6 A. YES, SIR.
7 Q. AT THIS POINT HE'S TRYING TO TELL YOU HE'S FAR
8 AWAY, RIGHT?
9 A. MAY I READ IT?
10 Q. YEAH. AND YOU MIGHT WANT TO GO BACK A LITTLE
11 BIT JUST TO GET SOME FOUNDATION.
15 Q. SO HE'S TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT HE'S FAR AWAY,
16 RIGHT?
17 A. YES, SIR.
18 Q. AND THAT'S WHEN YOU SAY TO HIM -- WELL, I'LL
19 START AT LINE 21:
20 "QUESTION: AND YOU HAD A CLEAN VIEW OF THE
21 WHOLE THING?"
22 HIS ANSWER IS "UM."
23 THEN YOU SAY, "YEAH, YOU DID. I KNOW THE WHOLE
24 AREA. I KNOW THE PARK VERY WELL. I WORKED THE CASE.
'
25 IT'S -- THAT'S -- I PROCESSED EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED
26 THERE, SO I KNOW WHERE EVERYTHING IS.
27 "WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT STUFF, I KNOW EXACTLY WHERE
28 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, SO I KNOW YOU HAD A GOOD VIEW. I
1494
1 KNOW YOU WEREN'T THAT FAR AWAY WHEN IT HAPPENED BECAUSE WE

2 HAVE OTHER PEOPLE THAT CAN SAY YOU WERE RIGHT THERE.
3 "SO HOW FAR AWAY WERE YOU STANDING WHEN IT
4 HAPPENED?"
5 GOING TO THE NEXT PAGE, THE ANSWER IS: "UM,
6 LIKE FIVE FEET AWAY."
7 THAT'S AN ACCURATE RENDITION OF WHAT WAS SAID?
8 A. YES, SIR, BUT PREVIOUS TO THAT HE HAD MENTIONED
9 BEING AT THE BENCHES, AND IF HE WAS AT THE BENCHES WHERE
10 HE SAID HE WAS, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO VIEW THE ENTIRE
11 SHOOTING.
12 Q. BUT YOU TOLD HIM THAT YOU HAVE OTHER PEOPLE THAT
13 CAN SAY HE WAS RIGHT THERE.
14 A. YES, SIR.
15 Q. THAT WASN'T TRUE, WAS IT?
16 A. NO, SIR.
17 Q. SO YOU LIED TO HIM ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR FACT?
18 A. YES, SIR.
19 Q. THEN AFTER YOU LIED TO HIM, THAT'S WHEN HE SAID
20 HE WAS FIVE FEET AWAY?
21 A. YES, SIR.
22 Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME HE SAID HE WAS FIVE FEET
23 AWAY, RIGHT?
24 A. I DON'T RECALL IF IT WAS THE FIRST TIME, BUT IT
25 WAS ONE OF THE TIMES HE SAID IT, YES.
26 Q. AFTER THAT HE SAID HE WAS FIVE FEET AWAY SEVERAL
27 TIMES MORE, RIGHT?
28 A. YES, IT WAS MORE THAN ONCE.
1495
1 Q. THANK YOU. SO MOVING ALONG IN THE TIMELINE,

2 AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW WITH ANDRES LOPEZ, NOW SPEEDY'S A
3 SUSPECT -- OR FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ IS A SUSPECT, CORRECT?
4 A. HE'S MOVING MORE TOWARD THAT SIDE, YES, SIR.
5 Q. IT WAS AT THAT TIME THAT YOU --
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME APPROACH THE WITNESS. I
7 WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.
10 Q. SHOWING YOU DEFENSE J -- I'M GOING TO TAKE US
11 OUT OF THE TIMELINE FOR A SECOND, DETECTIVE, SO BEAR WITH
12 ME -- WHAT IS THAT DOCUMENT THERE?
13 A. THAT IS A LAB REQUEST.
14 Q. WHAT'S IT A LAB REQUEST FOR?
15 A. IT'S ASKING THEM TO PROCESS THE GLOVES FOR THE
16 PRESENCE OF GSR.
17 Q. BEING GUNSHOT RESIDUE?
18 A. YES, SIR.
19 Q. AND WHAT GLOVES?
20 A. THE GLOVES THAT WERE RECOVERED, ITEM NOS. 16 AND
21 17.
22 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. AND ONE LAST QUESTION: WHO
23 FILLED OUT THIS REQUEST?
24 A. I DID.
25 Q. WHAT DATE?
26 A. THE DATE IS OCTOBER 8th OF 2008.
27 Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DID YOU EVER GET A
28 RESULT OF THAT TEST?
1496
1 A. NO, I DID NOT.

2 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. LET'S GO BACK INTO THE
3 TIMELINE NOW, ALL RIGHT?
4 SO AFTER -- AFTER THE INTERVIEW WITH THE
5 DETECTIVE AND WITH ANDRES LOPEZ -- YOU BEING THE
6 DETECTIVE -- SOMETIME AROUND JULY, YOU MAKE ANOTHER
7 REQUEST WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVES, RIGHT?
8 A. THERE WERE MANY REQUESTS. I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT
9 DATE OR EXACTLY WHAT THE REQUEST WAS ON THAT DATE. I
10 WOULD HAVE TO SEE THE LAB REQUEST TO REFRESH MY MEMORY.
11 Q. OKAY. YOU ASKED -- LET ME FIND IT.
14 Q. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS
15 DEFENSE DO --
16 A. THANK YOU, SIR.
17 Q. -- THIS IS THE SAME THING. IT'S ANOTHER
18 REQUEST, RIGHT?
19 A. YES, IT IS.
20 Q. A REQUEST FOR FORENSIC ANALYSIS, RIGHT?
21 A. YES, SIR.
22 Q. WHAT TYPE OF FORENSIC ANALYSIS IS BEING
23 REQUESTED?
24 A. TO PROCESS THE GLOVES FOR DNA.
25 Q. AND WHAT'S THE DATE OF THIS REQUEST?
26 A. THIS REQUEST IS JULY 7th OF 2009.
27 Q. SO AFTER THE ANDRES LOPEZ INTERVIEW?
28 A. YES, SIR.
1497
~ 1 Q. WHAT IS THE COMPARISON THAT'S BEING ASKED ABOUT?

2 A. WELL, IN THE BODY OF THE REQUEST IT'S STATING
3 THAT WITNESSES REPORTED SEEING AT LEAST TWO INDIVIDUALS
4 INVOLVED IN THE BEATING OF LOPEZ.
5 THE COURT: SLOWLY, PLEASE.
6 THE WITNESS: PARDON ME, YOUR HONOR.
7 "MINUTES AFTER THE SHOOTING, RESPONDING OFFICERS
8 ARRIVED AT THE SCENE. NUMEROUS SUBJECTS RAN FROM THE PARK
9 UPON THEIR ARRIVAL. BLACK GLOVES WERE LOCATED A SHORT
10 DISTANCE FROM THE MAGAZINE, WITHIN THE PATH OF THE FLEEING
11 SUSPECTS."
12 WHAT I'M DOING HERE IS -- MY ACTUAL REQUEST IS,
13 "PLEASE REPROCESS ITEMS 16 AND 17 PER OUR DISCUSSION."
15 Q. AND THE DISCUSSION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS YOUR
16 DISCUSSION WITH SHAWN MONTPETIT?
18 Q. OR "MONT PETITE."
19 A. HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PRONOUNCE IT, SIR.
20 Q. YOU'RE ASKING HIM TO COMPARE -- REPROCESS THE
21 GLOVES FOR DNA BUT ALSO SPECIFICALLY TO COMPARE IT WITH
22 ITEM FS8A, RIGHT?
23 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT LISTS THAT ON THE SERVICE
24 REQUEST OR NOT, BUT -- I DON'T BELIEVE I READ THAT IN THE
25 REQUEST.
26 Q. WITHOUT HAVING READ IT IN THE REQUEST, IS THAT
27 WHAT HAPPENED?
28 A. IT MAY HAVE BEEN PART OF OUR DISCUSSION, YES,
1498
1 SIR.
2 Q. SHOWING YOU DEFENSE EE, THE FIRST PAGE OF
3 SUPPLEMENTAL REPORT 1 BY MR. MONPETIT, WOULD YOU PLEASE
4 READ JUST THE --
5 A. HDETECTIVEH
6 Q. NO, NOT OUT LOUD, TO YOURSELF.
7 A. OH, OKAY.
10 Q. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO
11 WHETHER IT WAS SPECIFICALLY FOR THE BEER BOTTLE?
12 A. PER HIS REPORT.
13 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. AT THAT POINT THE GLOVES HAD
14 ALREADY BEEN PROCESSED FOR DNA, HADN'T THEY?
15 A. YES, SIR.
16 Q. AND AT THAT POINT, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, THEY WERE
17 NOT A MATCH TO FS8A?
18 A. I DON'T RECALL IF THE FIRST ANALYSIS -- IF IT
19 WAS OR NOT.
20 Q. YES. THE LAST ISSUE I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT,
21 DETECTIVE -- OKAY?
22 A. OKAY.
23 Q. -- MIGHT TAKE A LITTLE BIT, BUT THE LAST ISSUE:

24 WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO ANDRES LOPEZ, YOU NEVER SHOWED HIM
25 A PHOTO OF SPEEDY, RIGHT?
27 Q. YOU NEVER SHOWED HIM -- OR TOOK HIM TO A LIVE
28 LINEUP TO PICK SPEEDY OUT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
1499
1 A. NO, SIR.
2 Q. AND THEN HE WAS, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, PLACED IN
3 THE JUVENILE DETENTION FACILITY?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. OKAY. AND THEN WHEN HE GOT OUT, DO YOU KNOW
6 WHERE HE WENT?
7 A. TO WHERE HE'S RESIDING AT NOW.
8 Q. NOT IN SAN DIEGO?
10 Q. AND AT THAT POINT IN TIME, YOU GAVE -- SORRY.
11 IN JANUARY OF 2010 YOU CALLED HIM ON THE PHONE WHERE HE
12 WAS AT?
13 A. YES, SIR.
14 Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAD A BRIEF CONVERSATION WITH
15 HIM?
16 A. YES, SIR.
17 Q. AT THAT POINT YOU HADN'T SHOWED HIM A PHOTO OF
18 MR. DOMINGUEZ, HAD YOU?
20 Q. YOU DIDN'T EMAIL HIM ONE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
21 A. I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAD EMAIL, BUT I DIDN'T ASK
22 EITHER.
23 Q. WHEN HE WAS IN CUSTODY AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW, YOU
24 COULD HAVE GONE TO VISIT HIM, tOULDN'T YOU HAVE?
25 A. YES, SIR.
26 Q. DID YOU EVER TRY TO SHOW HIM A PHOTO LINEUP?
28 Q. DETECTIVE, DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY AT A PRIOR HEARING
1500
1 THAT YOU DID ATTEMPT TO SHOW HIM A PHOTO LINEUP AT ONE

2 POINT?
3 A. NOT WHILE HE WAS IN CUSTODY, SIR. I DID NOT
4 TESTIFY TO THAT.
5 Q. WHEN DID YOU ATTEMPT TO SHOW HIM A PHOTO LINEUP?
'
6 A. AFTER HE WAS RELEASED FROM CUSTODY.
7 Q. YOU WENT TO WHERE HE WAS -- HIS LAST KNOWN
8 ADDRESS?
10 Q. AND YOU BROUGHT A PHOTO LINEUP WITH YOU?
12 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT I WAS MARKED
15 Q. APPROACHING WITH DEFENSE I, IS THIS THE PHOTO
16 LINEUP YOU WERE GOING TO SHOW HIM?
18 Q. AND WHAT NUMBER IS MR. DOMINGUEZ?
19 A. NO. 4.
20 Q. AND A PHOTO LINEUP -- JUST TO GIVE THE JURY SOME
21 BACKGROUND, WHO ARE THE OTHER FIVE PEOPLE?
22 A. FILLERS.
23 Q. THEY'RE FILLERS, RIGHT?
24 A. YES, SIR.
25 Q. YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY TESTING TO SEE WHETHER A
26 PERSON CAN RECOGNIZE A FACE?
27 A. YES, SIR.
28 Q. SO YOU PUT -- BASICALLY THE OTHER FIVE ARE A
1501
1 CONTROL GROUP?
2 A. I GUESS YOU CAN CALL THEM THAT, YES.
3 Q. HOW DOES MR. DOMINGUEZ LOOK IN THIS PHOTO?
4 A. LIKE MR. DOMINGUEZ.
5 Q. HAIR?
6 A. SHORTER HAIR THAN HE HAS NOW. HE HAS SOME
7 FACIAL HAIR, A MUSTACHE AND GOATEE IN PARTICULAR, HERE.
8 Q. OKAY. SO HE'S GOT WOULD YOU AGREE HE LOOKS
9 BALD?
10 A. SHAVED.
11 Q. AND HE'S GOT A MUSTACHE AND GOATEE?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. HE SEEMED TO BE SMILING, RIGHT?
14 A. KIND OF A SMIRKISH LOOK ON HIS FACE, YES, SIR.
15 Q. THE OTHER FIVE PEOPLE, DO THEY SEEM TO BE
16 SMILING IN THIS PHOTO?
17 A. WELL, NO. 2'S GOT A SIMILAR KIND OF A LITTLE
18 SMIRK ON HIS FACE. I DON'T KNOW THAT ANY OTHER FILLERS
19 DO.
20 Q. BUT, ANYWAY, YOU NEVER ACTUALLY GOT HIM TO
21 SHOW -- YOU NEVER ACTUALLY GOT TO SHOW HIM THIS, RIGHT?
22 A. NO, SIR.
23 Q. THEN THE FIRST TIME THAT HE DID POSITIVELY
24 IDENTIFY FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ AS A SHOOTER WAS AT THE PRIOR
25 HEARING IN APRIL OF 2010?
26 A. THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, YES, SIR.
27 Q. THAT WAS -- YOU WERE THERE FOR THAT, RIGHT?
28 A. I WAS.
1502
1 Q. AND SO UP TO THAT POINT YOU NEVER SHOWED HIM

'
2 TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAD ANY OTHER DETECTIVES ON YOUR
3 TEAM -- DID YOU KNOW IF THEY HAD SHOWN HIM A PICTURE? I'M
4 TALKING ABOUT ANDRES LOPEZ.
5 A. NO, SIR.
6 Q. WHAT WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ WEARING DURING THAT
7 HEARING?
8 A. THE JAIL JUMPSUIT.
9 Q. AND HE WAS HANDCUFFED?
10 A. I BELIEVE SO.
11 Q. AND HE WAS SITTING AT DEFENSE TABLE?
12 A. YES, HE WAS.
13 Q. NEXT TO ME?
14 A. YES, SIR.
15 Q. OKAY. ANYONE ELSE IN THE COURTROOM WEARING A
16 JAIL JUMPSUIT THAT DAY?
17 A. NO, SIR.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT. THANK YOU,
19 YOUR HONOR.
21 REDIRECT?
23
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. IN TERMS OF PREPARING A SIX-PACK FOR A
27 PHOTOGRAPHIC LINEUP, YOU TRY TO USE THE MOST RECENT
28 PHOTOGRAPH OF THE SUSPECT?
1503
1 A. YES, SIR.
2 Q. WHY IS THAT?
3 A. IT HELPS IN THE IDENTIFICATION. I WOULDN'T WANT
4 TO PULL, YOU KNOW, A 10-YEAR-OLD PHOTO OF
5 FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ TO SHOW TO A POTENTIAL WITNESS BECAUSE
'
6 THEIR APPEARANCE MAY HAVE CHANGED CONSIDERABLY OVER A
7 PERIOD OF TIME, SO YOU WANT TO SHOW THE MOST RECENT
8 PHOTOGRAPH .
9 Q. THE PHOTOGRAPH IN DEFENSE I, THAT WAS THE MOST
10 RECENT PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU HAD OF MR. DOMINGUEZ AT THE
11 TIME, CORRECT?
13 Q. NOW, THE PHOTOGRAPH HAS MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH A
14 GOATEE AND A MUSTACHE, OR HAIR ON HIS CHIN AND A MUSTACHE,
15 CORRECT?
16 A. YES, SIR.
'
17 Q. WOULD YOU EVER MAKE A SIX-PACK WITH ONE GUY WITH
18 A GOATEE AND A MUSTACHE AND THE OTHER FIVE GUYS
19 CLEAN-SHAVEN?
20 A. NO, SIR.
21 Q. WHY NOT?
22 A. WELL, IF THAT'S YOUR TARGET, YOUR PERSON THAT
23 YOU ARE LOOKING AT AS A POTENTIAL SUSPECT, IT WOULD MAKE
24 IT UNFAIR IN THAT THAT'S THE ONE PERSON WITH A MUSTACHE
25 AND GOATEE AND NO ONE ELSE HAS ONE.
26 Q. WE ALSO HEARD TESTIMONY THAT THE PICTURE OF
27 MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS CLOSELY-CUT, SHAVED-STYLE HAIR, CORRECT?
28 A. YES, SIR.
1504
1 Q. WOULD YOU PUT SOMEBODY IN THERE WITH LONG

2 HAIR --
3 A. NO, SIR.
4 Q. -- IN THE SIX-PACK? WHY NOT?
5 A. THE SAME THING: YOU WANT THE PHOTOGRAPHS TO ALL
6 BE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR WITH THE INDIVIDUALS BEING OF THE SAME
7 OBVIOUSLY GENDER, RACE, AROUND THE SAME AGE AND SIMILAR
8 PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.
9 Q. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF' YOU DID PUT A PICTURE OF
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ -- LIKE WE SEE IN NO. 4 -- AND THEN FIVE
11 GUYS WITH NO FACIAL HAIR AND LONG HAIR? WHAT WOULD BE THE
12 VALUE OF THAT LINEUP?
13 A. IT WOULD BE PRETTY MUCH WORTHLESS.
14 Q. WHEN YOU WENT AND TALKED TO MR. ANDRES LOPEZ IN
15 JUVENILE HALL, DID YOU HAVE PEOPLE'S 231 IN YOUR
16 POSSESSION?
18 Q. THIS WOULD BE THE PHOTOGRAPH OF MR. DOMINGUEZ
19 WITH ANDRES LOPEZ AT HIS HOUSE -- CORRECT?
20 A. YES, SIR, THAT IS CORRECT.
21 Q. -- ALONG WITH ABOUT MAYBE A DOZEN OTHER PEOPLE?
22 A. YES, SIR.
23 Q. WHEN YOU'RE DOING SIX-PACKS AND LINEUPS, DO YOU
24 DO SIX-PACKS WITH PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHO THE SUSPECT IS?
25 A. NO, SIR, NOT TYPICALLY.
26 Q. WHY NOT?
27 A. BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEM. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE
28 HE TOLD ME SPEEDY JUMPED HIM IN, SO I FIGURED HE KNEW WHO
1505
1 SPEEDY WAS.
2 Q. WE HAVE A PICTURE OF THE WITNESS IN QUESTION
3 WITH THE DEFENDANT, CORRECT?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. IN FACT, WE HAVE TWO PICTURES OF THE SAME NIGHT,
6 PEOPLE'S 231 AND 232?
7 A. YES, SIR.
8 Q. DID YOU KNOW THESE PICTURES EVEN EXISTED WHEN
9 YOU WENT AND TALKED TO ANDRES LOPEZ?
10 A. I DID NOT.
11 Q. YET IT CONFIRMED WHAT HE WAS TELLING YOU, THAT
12 HE KNEW WHO SPEEDY WAS?
..
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. WE HEARD THE TAPE OF YOUR INTERVIEW WITH
17 ANDRES LOPEZ FROM JUVENILE HALL; IS THAT CORRECT?
18 A. YES, SIR.
19 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT INTERVIEW? WAS IT
20 COMPLEX?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. WERE YOU ASKING HIM WHAT HAPPENED?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WAS HE TELLING YOU WHAT HAPPENED?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WE HEARD SOME PARTS WHERE COUNSEL SAID THEY WERE
27 LIES THAT YOU TOLD TO ANDRES LOPEZ. DO YOU REMEMBER THOSE
28 PARTS?
1506
1 A. YES, SIR.
2 Q. IS THAT AN INTERROGATION OR AN INTERVIEW
3 TECHNIQUE USED BY POLICE?
4 A. YES, SIR.
5 Q. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF TELLING A SUBJECT OR A
'
6 WITNESS SOMETHING THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE?
7 A. WELL, IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE I'M TELLING
8 HIM THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING SO HE MAY
9 FEEL COMFORTABLE ENOUGH, "WELL, IF OTHER PEOPLE ARE
10 TALKING, THEN I CAN TALK."
11 THIS TECHNIQUE DOES NOT WORK VERY OFTEN. MOST
12 PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE HARD AND NOT ANSWER YOUR
13 QUESTIONS OR NOT BE TRUTHFUL OR NOT GIVE YOU INFORMATION
14 ARE GOING TO TELL YOU THE SAME THING, "NOPE, DIDN'T SEE
15 IT, DIDN'T HEAR IT, DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT," BUT IN
16 THIS CASE THAT WORKED WITH HIM IN TELLING HIM THAT OTHER
17 PEOPLE SAW IT, SO HE FELT COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO DIVULGE
18 MORE INFORMATION TO ME.
19 Q. IS THIS A TECHNIQUE THAT'S TAUGHT AT THE
20 ACADEMY?
21 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TAUGHT AT THE ACADEMY. WE
22 DO HAVE INTERVIEW AND INTERROGATION CLASSES AT THE
23 ACADEMY, BUT THIS IS JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS YOU KIND OF
24 BUILD UP OVER TIME CONDUCTING MANY INTERVIEWS OVER THE
25 COURSE OF A CAREER AND YOU LEARN SOME THINGS THAT WORK
26 WITH SOME PEOPLE AND THINGS THAT DON'T.
27 Q. DO YOU HAVE KIDS?
1507
1 Q. YOU USE THIS TECHNIQUE WITH YOUR KIDS?

2 A. A LITTLE MORE HARSHLY MOST OF THE TIME, BUT,
3 YES.
4 Q. IT'S SIMILAR TO, "I HEARD AT SCHOOL . . .
5 SOMEBODY TOLD ME THIS" -- IS THAT TRUE, IF YOU SUSPECT
6 YOUR CHILD OF DOING SOMETHING?
7 A. SIMILAR STUFF LIKE THAT, BUT, YES.
8 Q. WE ALSO HEARD REQUESTS FOR LAB GUNSHOT RESIDUE
9 ON A PAIR OF GLOVES. WAS THERE EVER A TEST CONDUCTED?
10 A. NO, SIR, IT WAS NOT.
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW THE LAB'S POLICY ON CONDUCTING GSR
12 OR GUNSHOT RESIDUE TESTS ON CLOTHING?
15 THE WITNESS: I HAVE NOT SEEN THE POLICY ON IT, BUT I
16 KNOW THAT THEY DON'T CONDUCT IT.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. ON CLOTHING?
20 Q. LASTLY, DETECTIVE, YpU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR GLASSES
21 WHEN YOU WERE OUT AT THE SCENE; IS THAT WHAT WE HEARD?
22 A. THAT'S CORRECT, SIR.
23 Q. YET YOU WERE STILL ABLE TO RECOGNIZE PEOPLE FROM
24 DISTANCES SUCH AS BEING ACROSS THE PARK?
25 A. YES, SIR.
26 Q. NO PROBLEM?
27 A. OH, NO, NO PROBLEM AT ALL.
1508

3
6 Q. SO ANDRES LOPEZ TOLD YOU DURING THE INTERVIEW
7 THAT HE HAD MET SPEEDY WHEN HE GOT JUMPED IN, RIGHT?
8 A. HE SAID HE WAS JUMPED IN BY SPEEDY.
9 Q. DID HE EVER MENTION ANY OTHER TIME THAT HE MET
10 HIM?
11 A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO, SIR.
12 Q. JUST WHEN HE WAS JUMPED IN. AND HE MENTIONED
13 THAT IT WAS AT OCEAN VIEW PARK, RIGHT?
14 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS, YEAH; I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT HE
15 SAID, YES.
16 Q. HE NEVER MENTIONED TO YOU DURING THAT INTERVIEW
17 A PARTY AT SPEEDY'S HOUSE A MONTH EARLIER?
18 A. NO, HE DID NOT.
19 Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AT THAT TIME THE ONLY
20 TIME THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE MET SPEEDY WAS WHEN HE WAS
21 JUMPED IN AT OCEAN VIEW PARK, RIGHT?
22 A. THAT'S THE ONLY INSTANCE THAT I KNEW OF, YES,
23 SIR.
24 Q. AND DID YOU EVER ASK'ANDRES LOPEZ TO GIVE YOU A
25 PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION OF SPEEDY?
26 A. I DON'T BELIEVE I DID.
27 Q. NO HAIR COLOR, HEIGHT, WEIGHT, ANYTHING LIKE
28 THAT?
1509
1 A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THOSE QUESTIONS WERE ASKED

2 OF HIM.
3 Q. AND DID YOU EVER ASK HIM IF HE KNEW SPEEDY'S
4 REAL NAME?
..
6 Q. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE POLICY OF NOT DOING
7 GSR ON GLOVES.
8 A. YES, SIR.
9 Q. HOW LONG HAS THAT BEEN THE POLICY?
10 A. I DON'T KNOW.
11 Q. FOR AS LONG AS YOU WORKED WITH THE POLICE
12 DEPARTMENT?
13 A. I DON'T KNOW.
14 Q. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A CASE WHERE GLOVES HAVE
15 BEEN TESTED FOR GSR?
16 A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE 60.
18 MR. TROCHA: JUST ONE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
19
20 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. WHEN YOU TALKED TO ANDRES, HE DID KNOW SPEEDY'S
23 OTHER MONIKER THOUGH, CORRECT?
24 A. YES, HE DID.
25 Q. WHAT WAS THAT?
26 A. "CHUNKY. II

28 THE COURT: ANYTHING FURTHER?
1510

2 THE COURT: DETECTIVE LAMBERT, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU
3 MAY STEP DOWN.
4 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE OUR FIRST
5 RECESS A BIT EARLY TODAY. WE'LL RECONVENE AT 20 MINUTES
6 BEFORE THE HOUR. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. SEE YOU
7 BACK HERE IN 15 MINUTES. THANK YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
8 (THE JURY EXITED AT 2:25 P.M.)
9 (RECESS TAKEN.)
11 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON. THE RECORD
12 WILL REFLECT ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT, ALL
13 MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.
14 MR. TROCHA?
15 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE CALL
16 TANYA DULANEY.
18
19 TANYA L. DULANEY,
22
24 WITNESS STAND.
25 THE COURT: UP HERE IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, MA'AM.
26 GOOD AFTERNOON.
28 THE CLERK: WILL YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND
1511

2 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS TANYA LEE DULANEY. THE LAST
3 NAME IS SPELLED D-U, CAPITAL L-A-N-E-Y.
4 THE COURT: AND TANYA IS SPELLED HOW, PLEASE?
5 THE WITNESS: T-A-N-Y-A.
9
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. DULANEY.
'
14 Q. WOULD YOU PLEASE TELL THE JURY HOW YOU'RE
15 CURRENTLY EMPLOYED.
16 A. I'M EMPLOYED AS A SUPERVISING CRIMINALIST FOR
17 THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT CRIME LABORATORY.
18 Q. IN WHAT SECTION ARE YOU IN?
19 A. I SUPERVISE TRACE EVIDENCE, FIREARMS AND THE
20 POLYGRAPH UNIT.
21 Q. BEFORE WE GET INTO YOUR DUTIES, WHAT IS TRACE
22 EVIDENCE?
23 A. TRACE EVIDENCE IN OUR LABORATORY CONSISTS OF THE
24 EXAMINATION OF SMALL ITEMS THAT CAN BE EXCHANGED DURING
25 THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME, SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
26 MICROSCOPIC THINGS TYPICALLY LIKE HAIRS, FIBERS, PAINT,
27 AND THEN IN THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENCE, GUNSHOT RESIDUE.
28 Q. WHAT SORT OF EDUCATION OR DEGREES DID YOU HAVE
1512
1 TO OBTAIN TO GET YOUR JOB?

2 A. I HAVE A BACHELOR'S OF SCIENCE DEGREE FROM SAN
3 DIEGO STATE IN BIOLOGY WITH A MINOR IN CHEMISTRY.
4 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A SUPERVISOR IN THIS
5 SECTION?
6 A. TO BE A SUPERVISOR, I WORKED AS A CRIMINALIST IN
7 THE TRACE EVIDENCE SECTION AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR
8 ABOUT 13 YEARS, AND PRIOR TO THAT I WORKED TWO YEARS AS A
9 CRIMINALIST WITH THE SHERIFF'S CRIME LABORATORY.
10 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR DUTIES AS A SUPERVISOR IN
11 THE TRACE EVIDENCE SECTION?
12 A. AS A SUPERVISOR IN TRACE EVIDENCE, AND IN ALL OF
13 THE UNITS, I AM REQUIRED TO EVALUATE ALL THE REQUESTS THAT
14 COME IN FROM THE DIFFERENT DETECTIVES AND THEIR
15 ASSIGNMENTS AND ASSIGN THE CASELOADS TO THE DIFFERENT
16 INDIVIDUALS IN THE UNIT.
17 I ALSO REVIEW EACH AND EVERY REPORT THAT'S
18 WRITTEN, AND I KEEP TRACK ON A DATABASE OF THE REPORTS AND
19 ALL THE CASES THAT ARE DONE. I EVALUATE MY EMPLOYEES
20 ANNUALLY. I KEEP TRACK OF THEIR ATTENDANCE AND MAKE SURE
21 THEIR TIME IS ENTERED SO THEY CAN GET THEIR PAY AND OF
22 COURSE PERFORMANCE-RELATED ISSUES AND TRAINING AND MY OWN
23 ONGOING EDUCATION. I'M ALSO CONTINUING TO BE AN EXAMINER
24 IN THE TRACE EVIDENCE UNIT.
25 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A SUPERVISOR IN THIS
26 SECTION?
27 A. IT'S BEEN ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS.
28 Q. GIVEN THAT THIS MURDER HAPPENED IN SEPTEMBER OF
1513
1 2008, WERE YOU A SUPERVISOR AT THAT TIME?

2 A. I BELIEVE SO.
3 Q. DOES A SUPERVISOR ALSO SET UP STANDARDS,
4 PROTOCOLS AND POLICIES FOR YOUR SECTION?
5 A. YES, I WOULD CERTAINLY BE INVOLVED IN SETTING
6 THOSE POLICIES FOR TRACE EVIDENCE.
7 Q. OBVIOUSLY THE ENFORCEMENT OF THOSE POLICIES?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY SPECtALIZED TRAINING IN THE
10 FIELD OF SPECIFICALLY GUNSHOT RESIDUE?
11 A. ONLY AS IT RELATES TO BEING TRACE EVIDENCE AND
12 ITS ABILITY TO BE TRANSFERRED AND HOW IT'S DEPOSITED. I
13 HAVEN'T HAD ANY FORMAL TRAINING AS FAR AS THE ANALYTICAL
14 PART OF IT, ALTHOUGH I DO -- I'M AWARE OF HOW IT'S DONE,
15 AND OF COURSE I REVIEW THE REPORTS, SO I'M WELL AWARE OF
16 THE INSTRUMENTATION REQUIRED TO ANALYZE GUNSHOT RESIDUE
17 AND ALSO THE WORKINGS OF THAT INSTRUMENTATION.
18 Q. DOES THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT'S CRIME
19 LABORATORY HAVE PROTOCOLS OR POLICIES IN RELATION TO WHAT
20 THEY WILL AND WILL NOT TEST FO~ GUNSHOT RESIDUE?
21 A. WELL, PART OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES AS SUPERVISOR
22 IS TO EVALUATE ALL THE REQUESTS THAT COME IN. WHEN I DO
23 THESE EVALUATIONS, I'M EVALUATING THE REQUEST ON -- I NEED
24 TO USE THE RESOURCES I HAVE AT HAND JUDICIALLY, SO I LOOK
25 AT THE REQUEST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE PROBATIVE
26 VALUE; IN OTHER WORDS, ARE THEY GOING TO ANSWER A QUESTION
27 THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED.
28 ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON
1514
'
1 CERTAIN TYPES OF ITEMS IS IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE
2 PROBATIVE, SO I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD USE OF OUR
3 RESOURCES.
4 Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
5 A. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I GET A REQUEST FOR GUNSHOT
1
6 RESIDUE ON HANDS, IT S VERY COMMON, AND TYPICALLY THEY'D
7 LIKE TO KNOW -- SAY, TWO PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED, THEY'D LIKE
8 TO KNOW WHICH PERSON MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE GUNSHOT RESIDUE
9 BECAUSE THAT MAY GIVE INFORMATION AS TO WHO WAS THE
10 SHOOTER IN THE EVENT, AND THAT'S VERY PROBATIVE BECAUSE
11 GUNSHOT RESIDUE, WHEN DEPOSITED ON HANDS, DOESN'T LAST
12 VERY LONG.
13 TYPICALLY WE REQUIRE THAT THE KIT OR SAMPLE IS
14 COLLECTED WITHIN SIX HOURS OF THE EVENT. GUNSHOT RESIDUE
15 IS EASILY REMOVED FROM THE HANDS BY WASHING, BY WIPING, BY
16 JUST EVERYDAY ACTIVITIES. IN THOSE CASES, THAT'S VERY
17 USEFUL INFORMATION.
18 WHEN THE REQUEST COMES IN TO DO GUNSHOT RESIDUE
19 ON INANIMATE OBJECTS SUCH AS CLOTHING, VEHICLES AND THOSE
20 TYPES OF THINGS, WE DON'T TYPICALLY HAVE THE HISTORY OF
21 THE OBJECT. IN OTHER WORDS, IT COULD BE A PAIR OF GLOVES,
22 A JACKET, A SWEATSHIRT, AND THEY JUST WANT TO KNOW IS
23 THERE GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON THE CLOTHING.
'
24 WELL, IF WE FIND GUNSHOT RESIDUE, IT CAN'T BE
25 CONNECTED TO ANY PARTICULAR SHOOTING EVENT FOR ANY LENGTH
26 OF TIME. THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE MAY HAVE BEEN DEPOSITED, IF
27 IT'S PRESENT ON THE ARTICLE, FOR -- AS LONG AS A YEAR, OR
28 IT COULD HAVE BEEN ON THERE AND FALLEN OFF IF THERE WAS NO
1515
1 GUNSHOT RESIDUE DETECTED.

2 SO IN THAT REGARD I JUST DON'T FIND THAT USEFUL
3 INFORMATION, AND SO I TYPICALLY DO NOT ASSIGN THOSE CASES.
4 Q. SO POLICY ASIDE, YOUR EDUCATION, EXPERIENCE WITH
5 GUNSHOT RESIDUE, IF YOU HAD AN'ITEM OF CLOTHING, LET'S SAY
6 A SHIRT, WITH GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON IT, THAT INFORMATION
7 ALONE, ARE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE FROM DOING THE ANALYSIS
8 WHEN THAT GUNSHOT RESIDUE WAS PUT ON THAT SHIRT?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. WHY NOT?
11 A. JUST THE REASONS I STATED. LET'S SAY THE SHIRT
12 WAS IN THE VICINITY OF THE TIME WHEN THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE
13 WAS DEPOSITED, WHEN WAS THAT GUNSHOT RESIDUE DEPOSITED, AT
14 WHAT INSTANT? WAS IT DURING THE INSTANT THAT WE'RE
15 TALKING ABOUT, THIS PARTICULAR THING, OR WAS THE SHIRT IN
16 A DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT AND A GUN WAS FIRED AND THE
'
17 GUNSHOT RESIDUE GOT DEPOSITED AT THAT TIME AND IT NEVER
18 FELL OFF? COULD THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED
19 ON THERE FROM HANDS, FROM ANOTHER COMPLETELY UNRELATED
20 SOURCE? SO IT'S JUST VERY DIFFICULT TO INTERPRET THOSE
21 RESULTS.
22 Q. WHAT IF WE DO A DIFFERENT SORT OF EXAMPLE WHERE
23 WE HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS SUSPECTED OF FIRING A GUN
24 WITH HIS BARE HANDS, AND HE'S FOUND AN HOUR LATER AND THEY
25 DO A GUNSHOT RESIDUE TEST ON HIS HANDS AND IT COMES BACK
1
26 NEGATIVE? DOES THAT CONCLUSIVELY PROVE THE PERSON DIDN T
27 FIRE THE GUN?
28 A. NO.
1516
1 Q. WHY NOT?
2 A. AGAIN, FOR THE REASONS I STATED, THAT BECAUSE
3 YOU USE YOUR HANDS SO OFTEN -- THE PERSON COULD HAVE
4 WASHED THEIR HANDS, THEY COULD HAVE PUT THEIR HANDS IN
5 THEIR POCKET, THEY COULD HAVE WIPED THEIR HANDS OR IN
6 THEIR EVERYDAY ACTIVITIES THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE MAY HAVE
7 BEEN LOST.
8 Q. WHAT IS ACTUAL GUNSHOT
.. RESIDUE?
9 A. GUNSHOT RESIDUE IS -- WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IT IN
10 THIS INSTANT, IT'S RESIDUE THAT'S RELEASED FROM THE PRIMER
11 OF A FIRED CARTRIDGE, SO WHEN THE HAMMER OF THE FIREARM
12 HITS THAT PRIMER, THERE'S AN EXPLOSION THAT OCCURS, AND
13 THOSE COMPOUNDS THAT ARE IN THAT PRIMER EXPLODE AND ARE
14 TYPICALLY DEPOSITED ON THE HAND, THE TOP PORTION OF THE
15 HAND, OF THE HOLDER OF THE FIREARM.
16 THEY ARE VERY SPECIFIC IN ELEMENTAL COMPOSITION
17 AND SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE ABLE TO ANALYZE THOSE. SO WE'RE
18 LOOKING FOR HEAT-FORMED PARTICLES THAT HAVE A SPECIFIC
19 ELEMENTAL COMPOSITION.
..
20 Q. ARE THESE PARTICLES SIMILAR TO DUST?
21 A. SIZE-WISE THEY'D BE SIMILAR TO DUST.
22 Q. SO IN TERMS OF HOW THEY GET ON OBJECTS, THEY
23 JUST KIND OF FLOAT THROUGH THE AIR ONTO THEM?
24 A. WELL, THEY -- THAT EXPLOSION OCCURS AND THAT
25 SMALL CLOUD IS -- IT COMES OUT OF WHERE THE FIRING PIN
26 STRIKES THE HAMMER -- OR THE FIRING PIN STRIKES THE
27 CARTRIDGE PRIMER, AND SO THEN IT WILL JUST BE DEPOSITED IN
28 A VERY SHORT RANGE IN THAT AREA OF WHERE THE BREACH FACE
1517
1 OF THE GUN IS.

2 SO ONCE IT'S DEPOSITED ON YOUR HANDS, IT CAN BE
3 TRANSFERRED TO SOME OTHER OBJECT FROM YOUR HANDS, BUT IT'S
4 SO SMALL IT'S NOT GOING TO FLY AROUND THE ROOM BECAUSE OF
5 ITS SIZE.
6 Q. BUT IF A PERSON IS FIRING A GUN, IT COULD ALSO
7 GET ON THEIR CLOTHING JUST FROM SIMPLY FIRING THE GUN?
8 A. IT COULD DEPENDING ON HOW CLOSE THEY HAD THE GUN
9 TO THEMSELVES.
10 Q. THEY DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THE SHIRT UP AGAINST THE
11 GUN WHILE THEY'RE SHOOTING IT, CORRECT?
12 A. I'M NOT SURE OF THAT~ BUT IF YOU WERE HOLDING,
13 SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, A SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL IN A NORMAL
14 STANCE YOU MIGHT NOT GET GUNSHOT RESIDUE DEPOSITED ON YOUR
15 SHIRT.
16 Q. OR YOU MIGHT?
17 A. OR YOU MIGHT.
18 Q. IS IT BY CHANCE? I MEAN, THERE'S NO DEFINITIVE
19 WAY TO SAY IT'S GOING TO GET ON SOMETHING OR NOT.
20 A. WELL, YOU DON'T EXPECT SMALL PARTICLES LIKE
21 THIS -- AND WE'RE TALKING SMALLER THAN THE DIAMETER OF A
22 HUMAN HAIR -- YOU DON'T EXPECT THOSE TO TRAVEL ANY
23 DISTANCE.
24 Q. IN TERMS OF IF IT GETS ON CLOTHING AND THAT
25 CLOTHING IS SHAKEN OR MOVED IN SUCH A MATTER, WILL IT COME
26 OFF?
27 A. IT CAN.
28 Q. SO IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S GLUE OR JUST DOESN'T STICK
1518
1 ON THINGS UNTIL IT'S WASHED OFF OR RUBBED OFF?

2 A. WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT PARTLY DEPENDS ON THE
3 TEXTURE OF WHATEVER IT LANDS ON. YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY IF
4 IT LANDS ON A SLIPPERY SURFACE, IT WILL PROBABLY FALL
5 RIGHT OFF. IF IT LANDS ON A MORE TEXTURED SURFACE, IT
6 WILL PROBABLY STICK FOR A LITTLE WHILE UNTIL IT'S BRUSHED
7 OFF.
8 Q. WHAT IF YOU WERE TO INTRODUCE MOISTURE TO IT
9 LATER, COULD IT WASH OFF AS WELL?
10 A. I SUSPECT IT COULD.
11 Q. HOW MUCH WATER WOULD BE NEEDED TO WASH GUNSHOT
12 RESIDUE OFF?
13 A. I DON'T KNOW.
14 Q. DOES IT JUST DEPEND?
15 A. IT PROBABLY JUST DEPENDS.
16 Q. THE SHORT OF THE STORY IS THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
'
17 DEPARTMENT CRIME LABORATORY WILL NOT DO IT ON CLOTHING?
18 A. I MAKE EVERY EFFORT NOT TO ASSIGN THE CASES THAT
19 REQUEST GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON ANY INANIMATE OBJECT.
20 Q. AND THAT'S FOR THE REASONS YOU'VE DESCRIBED
21 TODAY?
22 A. YES.
23 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MS. DULANEY. NOTHING
24 FURTHER.
28 \\
1519
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. DULANEY.
5 Q. HOW LONG HAS IT BEEN THE POLICY OF THE CRIME LAB
6 TO NOT TEST --
7 A. THERE'S NO ACTUAL WRITTEN POLICY, BUT IT'S
8 CERTAINLY SINCE I'VE BEEN A SUPERVISOR AND THE SUPERVISOR
'
9 BEFORE ME. WE ARE VERY RESISTANT TO DOING GUNSHOT RESIDUE
10 ON INANIMATE OBJECTS.
11 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A SUPERVISOR?
12 A. ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS.
13 Q. THE SUPERVISOR BEFORE YOU, HOW LONG WAS THAT
14 PERSON SUPERVISING?
15 A. I THINK HE WAS MY SUPERVISOR FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS.
16 Q. 10 YEARS?
17 A. MM-HMM.
18 Q. IT WAS HIS POLICY NOT TO ALLOW IT AS WELL?
19 A. YES, ALTHOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN CERTAIN INSTANCES
20 WHERE WE HAVE DONE THAT.
21 Q. PARTICULARLY ON GLOVES, IF -- HYPOTHETICALLY, IF
22 SOMEBODY'S WEARING GLOVES AND THEY FIRE A FIREARM, YOU
23 WOULD EXPECT TO FIND GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON THE GLOVES, WOULD
24 YOU NOT?
25 A. YOU COULD.
26 Q. AND IF YOU TESTED GLOVES THAT WERE SUSPECTED OF
27 BEING WORN DURING A SHOOTING AND THERE WAS NO GUNSHOT
28 RESIDUE, THAT WOULDN'T CONCLUSIVELY SAY IT, BUT IT WOULD
1520
1 BE EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT PERHAPS THOSE GLOVES WERE NOT

2 BEING WORN BY THE SHOOTER, RIGHT?
3 A. IT'S CERTAINLY ONE OPTION. IT'S NOT CONCLUSIVE,
4 LIKE YOU SAY, THOUGH.
5 Q. DOES THE LAB EVER MAKE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE?
6 A. WE HAVE.
7 Q. IN THE PAST?
8 A. WE HAVE.
9 Q. PARTICULARLY IN 2003 DID THEY MAKE AN EXCEPTION
10 TO THE RULE?
11 THE COURT: BE MORE SPECIFIC, PLEASE.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS WITH
'
13 DEFENSE HHH?
15 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT HHH WAS MARKED
18 Q. CAN YOU REVIEW THIS DOCUMENT FOR ME,
19 MS. DULANEY.
20 A. SURE.
21 Q. WHAT IS THAT DOCUMENT?
22 A. THIS IS A GUNSHOT RESIDUE REPORT.
23 Q. WHAT IS BEING TESTED?
24 A. A PAIR OF GLOVES.
25 Q. AND WHAT AGENCY IS DOING THE TESTING?
26 A. IT'S OUR LABORATORY.
27 Q. SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT?
28 A. YES.
1521
1 Q. AND WHO'S THE EXAMINER?

2 A. MELVIN KONG.
5 MR. TROCHA: YES.
6
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. MS. DULANEY, GIVEN YOU'RE THE SUPERVISOR OF THIS
10 SECTION, IS THERE A POLICY THAT ALLOWS THIRD PARTIES TO
11 TEST CERTAIN PIECES OF EVIDENCE --
12 A. YES.
13 Q. -- SUCH AS GUNSHOT RESIDUE?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. IS THIS AVAILABLE TO PARTIES CONNECTED WITH
16 CRIMINAL CASES THAT YOUR LAB HAS ASSISTED IN DOING
17 ANALYSIS ON?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. HOW WOULD ONE THIRD PARTY GET SOMETHING TESTED
20 SAY YOUR LABORATORY WON'T TEST?
21 A. THE THIRD PARTY WOULD MAKE ARRANGEMENTS WITH
22 ANOTHER LABORATORY THAT DOES THIS WORK, AND THEY WOULD
23 CONTRACT WITH THEM, AND THE EVIDENCE WOULD BE SENT TO THAT
24 ALTERNATE LABORATORY, THE TEST WOULD BE PERFORMED, THE
25 EVIDENCE WOULD BE RETURNED, AND THEN A REPORT WOULD BE
26 ISSUED.
27 Q. WERE THERE ANY THIRD-PARTY REQUESTS TO HAVE
28 THESE GLOVES TESTED FOR GSR BY A THIRD PARTY?
1522
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. VAGUE AS TO WHAT

2 GLOVES AT THIS POINT.
3 THE COURT: THE GLOVES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN THIS
4 CASE.
5 DO YOU KNOW WHAT GLOVES THOSE ARE?
6 THE WITNESS: NO, I'M SORRY. I DON'T.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
'
9 Q. BUT IT'S AN AVENUE THAT'S AVAILABLE TO
10 ANYBODY
11 A. YES.
12 Q. -- INVOLVED IN THE CASE?
13 A. YES.
16
19 Q. MS. DULANEY, IT'S A TIME-SENSITIVE TEST, IS IT
20 NOT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IT HAS TO BE DONE IMMEDIATELY?
23 A. WELL, ONCE IT'S COLLECTED ON THE STUBS -- ONCE
24 THE EVIDENCE IS COLLECTED FROM THE ITEM, WHETHER IT'S
25 HANDS OR CLOTHING OR WHATEVER ON THESE ADHESIVE STUBS THAT
26 WE USE TO COLLECT IT, IT WILL STAY ON THE STUBS
27 INDEFINITELY.
28 Q. ONCE IT'S COLLECTED FROM THE SAMPLE?
1523
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. BUT THE GSR ITSELF IS VERY FINE?
3 A. YES. IT'S VERY TRANSIENT, AND IT WILL FALL OFF
4 ARTICLES AS THEY'RE HANDLED.
5 Q. IF GLOVES -- EXCUSE ME. SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, A
6 PAIR OF GLOVES ARE HANDLED BY ANOTHER FORENSIC EXPERT
7 LET'S SAY TESTING THEM FOR DNA, IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY THAT
8 ALL THE GSR WOULD BE GONE, RIGHT?
9 A. IT'S CERTAINLY POSSIBLE THAT SOME COULD BE LOST
10 DEPENDING AGAIN ON THE SURFACE THAT IT WAS DEPOSITED ON
11 AND SO ON.
12 Q. HYPOTHETICALLY, IF SOMEBODY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
13 THEY WERE A SUSPECT IN A CASE UNTIL 18 MONTHS AFTER A GSR
14 SAMPLE HAD BEEN PUT ON OR PERHAPS WASN'T PUT ON A PAIR OF
15 GLOVES, HOW VALUABLE WOULD THAT TEST BE 18 MONTHS LATER?
16 A. I'M SORRY. COULD YOU REWORD THAT FOR ME --
17 Q. SURE.
18 A. -- TO ANSWER IT A LITTLE BIT BETTER.
19 Q. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY FOR
20 EVIDENCE TO BE RETESTED BY INDEPENDENT LABS.
21 A. YES.
22 Q. HYPOTHETICALLY, IF SOMEBODY WASN'T EVEN
23 DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY -- THERE WAS A NEED TO RETEST A
'
24 PAIR OF GLOVES UNTIL 18 MONTHS AFTER THE PURPORTED GSR WAS
25 PLACED ON THE GLOVES -- LET ME START OVER. I'M CONFUSING
26 MYSELF. TAKE IT ONE STEP AT A TIME.
27 I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A HYPOTHETICAL: THERE'S A
28 SHOOTING. LET'S SAY HYPOTHETICALLY THE SHOOTER IS WEARING
1524
1 SOME GLOVES, OKAY?

2 A. OKAY.
3 Q. AND THEN THE GLOVES ARE DEPOSITED SOMEWHERE NEAR
4 THE CRIME SCENE, AND THEY ARE ..COLLECTED BY THE SAN DIEGO
5 POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT DAY. EVENTUALLY A SUSPECT IS
6 ARRESTED, BUT IT'S NOT UNTIL 18 MONTHS AFTER THE GLOVES
7 ARE COLLECTED. AT THAT POINT HOW VALUABLE WOULD A GSR
8 TEST BE?
9 A. WELL, DEPENDING ON HOW THE GLOVES WERE
10 PACKAGED -- IF THEY WERE PACKAGED CAREFULLY AND PUT INTO A
11 PACKAGE BY THEMSELVES, THEN THAT EVIDENCE SHOULD STILL BE
12 INTACT.
13 Q. NOW, WHAT IF THE GLOVES WERE TESTED TWICE BY A
14 FORENSIC DNA EXPERT AND HANDLED?
15 A. IT'S POSSIBLE FOR TRACE EVIDENCE TO GET LOST
16 DURING HANDLING OF EVIDENCE.
19 MR. TROCHA: JUST VERY BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR.
20
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. WHAT WOULD BE MORE DETERMINATIVE OF WHO WAS
24 WEARING THE GLOVES, THE GSR ON THE GLOVES OR DNA INSIDE
25 THE GLOVES?
28 \\
1525
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. LASTLY, WHAT IF THIS WAS A MONTH LATER?
3 WOULDN'T THE GSR HAVE FALLEN OFF POSSIBLY A MONTH LATER,
4 18 MONTHS LATER?
5 A. DEPENDING ON THE WAY IT'S PACKAGED, YOU CAN HAVE
6 THE GLOVES SIT IN PROPERTY FOR FIVE YEARS BEFORE THEY'RE
7 EVER TESTED AND THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE WOULD STILL BE THERE
8 IF IT WERE THERE FROM THE GET-GO.
'
9 BUT IF THE GLOVES WERE HANDLED IN AN INTERIM
10 PERIOD OF TIME AND NO ONE THOUGHT TO COLLECT ANY OTHER
11 TRACE EVIDENCE, THEN IT'S CERTAINLY POSSIBLE THAT IT COULD
12 HAVE BEEN LOST.
13 Q. AND I THINK WE MISSED OVER THIS PART: HOW WAS
14 THE GSR COLLECTED OFF THE GLOVES?
15 A. THE GSR IS COLLECTED THE SAME WAY IT'S COLLECTED
16 OFF THE HANDS. WE HAVE THESE SMALL ADHESIVE DISKS AND
17 THEY ARE TAPED ONTO THE SURFACE THAT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN.
18 SO FOR HANDS, THEY'RE PERFECT BECAUSE YOU JUST TAP ALONG
19 THE INTERESTED AREAS, AND THERE'S ONE DISK PER HAND.
20 WITH LARGER ITEMS YOU' HAVE TO USE MORE DISKS AND
21 YOU ALSO WIND UP GETTING MISCELLANEOUS PARTICLES ON THERE,
22 LIKE FIBERS AND SO ON.
23 Q. SO IF YOU DID THAT -- IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE SIZE
24 OF MAYBE ONE OF THOSE ACNE PADS?
25 A. I'D SAY IT'S ABOUT THE SIZE OF A DIME.
26 Q. SO WHEN YOU USE THAT, IT WOULD ABSORB ANYTHING
27 YOU'RE TOUCHING ON THE SURFACE, CORRECT?
28 A. WELL, IT'S STICKY LIKE TAPE, SO IT WOULD JUST
1526
1 GRAB WHATEVER'S ON THE SURFACE.

2 Q. LIKE BLOOD?
3 A. IT COULD GRAB IF IT WAS DRIED BLOOD FLAKES.
4 Q. WHAT IF IT WAS WET BLOOD?
5 A. IT PROBABLY WOULDN'T -- IT WOULD ADHERE TO THE
6 SURFACE, BUT IT WOULD PROBABLY MAKE THE DISK UNUSABLE.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BASED ON THAT, YES.
9
10 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12 Q. IF THE BLOOD HAD DRIED, THE DISK WOULD STILL BE
13 USEFUL, WOULDN'T IT?
14 A. YES.
15 THE COURT: MS. DULANEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH. YOU MAY
16 STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
18 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE CALL DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA,
19 YOUR HONOR.
21
22 DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA,
23 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOfLE, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY
25
28 WITNESS STAND.
1527
1 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, MA'AM.

3 GOOD AFTERNOON, JURY.
~

6 THE WITNESS: YES. GOOD AFTERNOON. MY NAME IS
7 MARTHA GASCA, M-A-R-T-H-A, AND GASCA IS G-A-S-C-A.
12
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE GASCA.
17 Q. YOU'RE A DETECTIVE WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
18 DEPARTMENT?
19 A. YES.
21 SAN DIEGO P.O.?
22 A. IT WILL BE 12 YEARS IN JULY THIS YEAR.
23 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE?
24 A. A DETECTIVE, IT WILL BE SINCE 2008.
26 A. I AM A DETECTIVE WITH THE STREET GANG UNIT FOR
27 THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMEN~.
28 Q. ARE YOU ASSIGNED TO ANY PARTICULAR STREET GANG?

1528
1 A. YES. RIGHT NOW I'M ASSIGNED TO LOGAN, ALL THE

2 SUBSETS: LOGAN HEIGHTS, LOGAN TREINTA, LOMAS AND SHERMAN.
3 Q. WERE YOU ALWAYS ASSIGNED TO THIS GANG SET?
4 A. NO, I WAS RECENTLY ASSIGNED TO THE SETS.
5 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR PRIOR GANG SET?
6 A. MY PRIOR GANG SETS WAS SHELLTOWN, SHELLTOWN 38,
7 SHELLTOWN GAMMA AND MARKET STREET.
8 Q. WHY DO DETECTIVES IN,THE GANG UNIT GET
9 ASSIGNMENTS TO SPECIFIC GANGS?
10 A. WHEN I FIRST CAME TO THE UNIT AS A DETECTIVE, I
11 WAS ASSIGNED TO AN AREA OF SAN DIEGO, AND WHEN I FIRST
12 CAME I WAS ASSIGNED TO THE MID-CITY AREA IN SAN DIEGO THAT
13 COVERS THE EAST SIDE SAN DIEGO, THE JUNIORS, ALL THE
14 HISPANIC GANGS.
15 A COUPLE MONTHS LATER THE DETECTIVE THAT WAS IN
16 CHARGE OF SHELLTOWN AND MARKET STREET MOVED TO ANOTHER
17 ASSIGNMENT, AND I TOOK OVER HIS SETS. I STAYED THERE FOR
18 CLOSE TO TWO YEARS WORKING SHELLTOWN AND MARKET, WHEN
19 ANOTHER DETECTIVE HAD TO GO TO ANOTHER ASSIGNMENT IN
20 ROBBERY, AND I MOVED TO THAT -- MY CURRENT TEAM TO ANOTHER
21 TEAM WHERE THEY NEEDED A DETECTIVE, AND I TOOK OVER THE
22 LOGAN SETS, SHERMAN AND LOMAS.
23 Q. THE DETECTIVE THAT YOU TOOK SHELLTOWN FROM, WAS
24 THAT DETECTIVE GREG PENERELLI?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE ASSIGNED TO A GANG?
27 A. WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ASSIGNED TO THE GANG IS
28 YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR MONITORING THE ACTIVITIES OF THOSE
1529
1 GANGS AND THE RIVAL GANGS AS WELL.

2 Q. DO YOU ACTIVELY INVESTIGATE INDIVIDUAL CRIMES
3 WITHIN THE GANG SIMILAR TO, SAY, THE HOMICIDE UNIT WOULD?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. ARE THERE ALSO INVESTIGATIONS YOU SIMPLY ASSIST
6 ON BY PROVIDING INFORMATION ASSOCIATED WITH THE GANG?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT PRIOR TO BEING A
9 DETECTIVE IN THE GANG UNIT?
10 A. PRIOR TO BECOMING A DETECTIVE WITH THE GANG
11 UNIT, I ALSO WORKED AT THE GANG UNIT BUT AT A TEAM WHERE I
12 WAS A UNIFORM -- AS A REGULAR POLICE UNIFORM, AND THAT'S
13 THE GANG SUPRESSION TEAM.
14 ONE OF THE DUTIES THAT WE HAVE AS A GANG
15 SUPPRESSION TEAM IS TO MONITOR THE ACTIVITIES OUT ON THE
16 FIELD ON A REGULAR BASIS. EVERY DAY WE'LL GO TO DIFFERENT
17 AREAS OF THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO AND TO THOSE PLACES
18 SPECIFICALLY WHERE WE KNOW THAT THEY HAVE ACTIVITY ON A
19 DAILY BASIS. IF SOMETHING WAS GOING ON IN THE AREA OF
20 LOGAN, WE'LL GO TO LOGAN FOR SEVERAL HOURS OF THE DAY,
21 THEN WE'LL MOVE TO ANOTHER PART OF THE CITY.
22 Q. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE GANG SUPPRESSION
23 TEAM?
24 A. THE PURPOSE OF THE GANG SUPPRESSION TEAM, IT WAS
25 TO SUPPRESS THE CRIMINAL ACTIVITY OF THOSE GANGS IN
26 DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE AREA. WE ALSO RESPONDED TO ALL THE
27 FELONIES -- NOT FELONIES -- CRIMES IN THE AREA, SHOOTINGS,
28 STABBINGS, VANDALISMS, JUST REGULAR FIGHTS.
1530
1 WE GATHER -- WE TALK TO THEM ON A REGULAR BASIS,

2 CUSTODIAL OR NONCUSTODIAL, JUST AS REGULAR CONVERSATIONS.
3 WE ALSO CONDUCT TRAFFIC STOPS ON THE GANG MEMBERS AND
4 NONGANG MEMBERS.
5 OUR FOCUS WAS THE GANG ACTIVITY, BUT WE ALSO
6 RESPONDED TO RADIO CALLS. IF WE WERE IN AN AREA WHERE THE
7 DIVISION NEEDED OFFICERS TO RESPOND TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE,
8 WE'LL ALSO RESPOND TO THOSE. WE CONDUCTED ALL TRAFFIC
9 LAWS, BUT OUR BASIS WAS TO EXPRESS THE CRIMINAL ACTIVITY
10 OF THOSE GANGS.
11 Q. YOU SAID WITH THE GANG SUPPRESSION TEAM YOU
12 MOVED AROUND THE CITY?
13 A. YES, EVERY AREA IN THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO, FROM
14 SAN YSIDRO TO LA JOLLA.
15 Q. SO UNLIKE YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT, YOU DIDN'T
16 JUST STAY, SAY, IN SHELLTOWN THE WHOLE TIME?
17 A. YES, CORRECT, WITH THE GANG SUPPRESSION TEAM, I
18 WAS NOT DEDICATED SOLELY TO ONE GANG.
19 Q. WHILE YOU WERE ON THE GANG SUPPRESSION TEAM,
20 WHILE JUST BEING A PATROL OFFICER WITH SAN DIEGO P.O., DID
21 YOU USE SOMETHING CALLED A "FIELD INTERVIEW CARD"?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WHAT IS A FIELD INTERVIEW CARD?
24 A. A FIELD INTERVIEW CARD IS JUST A FORM. IT LOOKS
25 ABOUT THE SIZE OF A TRAFFIC CITATION, A TICKET. IT DOES
26 HAVE -- IT'S A FORM WHERE YOU HAVE THE DATE, THE TIME, THE
27 LOCATION, THE NAME OF THE PERSON, LAST NAME, DATE OF
28 BIRTH.
1531
1 IT DOES HAVE A MONIKER OR AN ALIAS, AN ADDRESS,

2 SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER, THE RACE, THE GENDER OF THE
3 PERSON, THE HEIGHT, THE WEIGHT, COLOR OF EYES, COLOR OF
4 HAIR, TATTOOS, ADDRESS, VEHICLE, YEAR, MODEL, MAKE, COLOR,
5 NUMBER OF DOORS, TYPE OF CAR IT IS, FOUR-DOOR, TWO-DOOR.
6 IT HAS A SPACE ALSO FOR COMPANIONS, TO LIST
7 COMPANIONS WITH NAME, LAST NAME, DATE OF BIRTH AND
8 DESCRIPTION. IT HAS A SECOND COMPANION AND THEN IT HAS A
9 BOX WHERE YOU ENTER A TYPE OF CRIME THAT'S BEING INVOLVED,
10 OR IF IT'S -- IT COULD BE JUST A CITATION. IT COULD BE
11 NOT A CRIME THEY'RE BEING INVOLVED. THEY COULD BE JUST
12 HAVING AN ARGUMENT, A VERBAL ARGUMENT. YOU WRITE THERE
13 WHAT'S THE REASON FOR THE CONTACT.
14 IT HAS A COUPLE LINES TO WRITE A NARRATIVE AND
15 THAT NARRATIVE YOU WRITE THE REASON WHY YOU CONTACT, WHAT
16 THIS PERSON TOLD YOU OR YOUR OPINION OF WHAT YOU HAD SEEN
17 WHILE TALKING TO THIS PERSON.
18 AND AT THE VERY, VERY BOTTOM IT HAS A
19 DESCRIPTION OF THE PERSON AS GLASSES -- CHECK-THE-BOX TYPE
20 THING -- IF HE WAS WEARING GLASSES, LONG HAIR, SHORT HAIR.
21 AND THE LAST BOX IS FOR THE OFFICERS' NAMES, THE
22 I.D. AND THE AREA OF TOWN WHERE IT WAS CONTACTED, THE BEAT
23 NUMBER.
24 Q. WHAT ARE FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS USED FOR?
25 A. THOSE FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS GO -- DEPENDING ON
26 WHAT THE CRIME WAS OR THE REASON WHY THE PERSON WAS
27 CONTACTED. IF IT WAS CONTACTED FOR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE,
28 GANGS OR NARCOTIC ACTIVITY, IN THIS CASE THE NARCOTIC
1532
'
1 ACTIVITY WILL GO TO THE NARCOTIC DETECTIVES, THE DOMESTIC
2 VIOLENCE WILL GO TO THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE DETECTIVES, THE
3 GANG ONES COME TO MY UNIT NOW.
4 THOSE GANG FI'S -- THERE IS A PERSON THAT GOES
5 OVER THOSE FIELD INTERVIEWS. WE CALL THEM "FI'S" AS SHORT
6 FOR "FIELD INTERVIEW" -- THOSE FORMS ARE REVIEWED BY A
7 SECRETARY IN OUR OFFICE. THAT SECRETARY WILL SEE WHAT
8 AREA OF TOWN THIS PERSON IS.
9 IF THESE PERSONS ARE GANG MEMBERS ALREADY OR
10 THESE PERSONS WERE INVOLVED IN A CERTAIN CRIME IN A
11 CERTAIN AREA, SHE'LL SEPARATE IT AND SORT THEM TO A
12 SPECIFIC DETECTIVE. EVERY DAY,I'LL GET A STACK OF FIELD
13 INTERVIEWS FROM OFFICERS IN THE FIELD AND I'LL GO OVER
14 THOSE FIELD INTERVIEWS, CONDUCT CHECKS ON THE PEOPLE THAT
15 WERE RUN OR CONTACTED BY THOSE DETECTIVES.
16 IF THOSE FIELD INTERVIEWS DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING
17 THAT I CAN USE FOR INTELLIGENCE OR ANY INFORMATION THAT
18 COULD BE USED, WE'LL JUST SHRED THEM. IF THERE IS
19 INFORMATION ABOUT SOMEBODY THAT I'M LOOKING FOR, I WILL
20 KEEP THEM. I'LL ENTER THEM IN THE SYSTEM OR DO A
21 FOLLOW-UP IF I NEED TO.
22 Q. NOW, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FIELD INTERVIEWS
23 JUST BRIEFLY AS THEY'RE USED IN THE GANG UNIT. ANYBODY
24 CAN HAVE A FIELD INTERVIEW CARD FILLED OUT FOR THEM; IS
25 THAT CORRECT?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. SUCH AS IF YOU WITNESSED A TRAFFIC COLLISION OR
28 IF YOU WERE IN A TRAFFIC COLLISION, COULD A FIELD
1533
1 INTERVIEW CARD BE FILLED OUT IN THAT SITUATION?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. WOULD THIS BE AN EASY WAY TO GET THE CONTACT
4 INFORMATION OF POTENTIAL WITNESSES OR VICTIMS FOR LATER
5 CONTACT?
6 A. YES, CORRECT.
7 Q. SO JUST BECAUSE A FIELD INTERVIEW CARD IS FILLED
8 OUT ON AN INDIVIDUAL, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE UP TO NO
9 GOOD OR COMMITTING CRIMES?
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. WE'VE HEARD SOME TRAINING FOR THE GANG
12 SUPPRESSION TEAM AND SOME OF YOUR DUTIES AS A GANG
13 DETECTIVE. WHAT SORT OF TRAINING DID YOU HAVE TO UNDERGO
14 IN ORDER TO BECOME A GANG DETECTIVE?
15 A. THERE IS A BASIC TRA~NING THAT WE ALL ATTEND
16 DURING THE ACADEMY. THERE IS A VERY GENERAL TRAINING IN
17 GANGS. AFTER I GRADUATED FROM THE ACADEMY, I STARTED
18 ATTENDING DIFFERENT CLASSES. WHEN IT COMES TO
19 GANG-RELATED CLASSES, I HAVE ATTENDED PROBABLY OVER 100 OR
20 150 HOURS OF GANG-RELATED CLASSES HERE IN SAN DIEGO,
21 LOS ANGELES, NEVADA, FLORIDA.
22 THOSE CLASSES -- IT WILL HAVE A SPECIFIC
23 SUBJECT. IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
24 CRIMINAL STREET GANGS, THAT WILL BE SPECIFICALLY WITH
25 THOSE GANGS. I HAVE ATTENDED CLASSES ON SAN DIEGO GANGS,
26 SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA GANGS, PRECINCT GANGS, FEMALES IN
27 GANGS, KNOWN GANGS, LATINO GANGS, BLOOD AND CRIPS GANGS,
28 ORIENTAL GANGS, MOTORCYCLE GANGS.
1534
1 THOSE TYPES OF TRAININGS YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO

2 TAKE, IT'S JUST FOR YOUR PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AND TO EXPAND
3 YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON GANGS.
4 Q. DO YOU ALSO HAVE MORE INFORMAL TRAINING SUCH AS
5 MEETINGS OR TALKING WITH OTHER DETECTIVES?
6 A. YES, ON A REGULAR BASIS. I GO EVERY DAY -- AT
7 THE BEGINNING OF MY DAY I GO TO A MEETING, WHAT IS CALLED
11
8 A LINEUP TRAINING.n THE LINEUP TRAINING INCLUDES ALL OF
9 THE DETECTIVES IN MY UNIT, INCLUDES ALL THOSE UNIFORMED
10 POLICE OFFICERS THAT ARE ASSIGNED TO THE GANG SUPPRESSION
11 TEAM AND SUPERVISORS AND SOMETIMES OUR LIEUTENANTS AND
12 CAPTAIN.
13 WE DISCUSS THE CURRENT CRIMES THAT ARE OCCURRING
r 14 IN CERTAIN AREAS. WE EXCHANGE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S
15 GOING ON, WHAT HAPPENED. IF TODAY'S MONDAY, I'LL GO OVER
16 WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE WEEKEND, IF I WAS CALLED OUT,
17 WHAT HAPPENED. I'LL PUT OUT INFORMATION TO THOSE OFFICERS
18 AND ALSO I'LL RECEIVE INFORMATION FROM THOSE OFFICERS THAT
19 ARE EVERY DAY OUT IN THE FIELD.,.
20 I'LL ALSO ATTEND ON A MONTHLY BASIS MEETINGS
21 WITH PAROLE AND PROBATION, A PERSON THAT MONITORS THE
22 GANGS IN JAIL AND -- COUNTY JAIL AND PRISONS HERE IN
23 CALIFORNIA, IN THE SOUTHERN PART, SAN DIEGO.
24 I ALSO ATTEND -- I ALSO BELONG TO -- I'M A
25 MEMBER OF ABOUT FIVE DIFFERENT ASSOCIATIONS, POLICE
26 ASSOCIATIONS, WHERE THEY HAVE REGULAR MEETINGS AND
27 TRAINING FOR DETECTIVES.
28 Q. DO YOU ALSO LOOK AT POLICE REPORTS OF SUSPECTS
1535
1 IN GANG CRIMES?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. YOU ALSO SAID YOU WORKED CASES AND GENERALLY
4 WORK IN THE AREA, CORRECT?
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. DO YOU ALSO HAVE OTHER AREAS OF INTELLIGENCE
7 FROM WHERE THIS INFORMATION COMES FROM?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. YOU MENTIONED ONE OF THESE SOURCES MAY BE POLICE
10 OFFICERS.
11 A. YES.
12 Q. ANOTHER MAY ACTUALLY BE GANG MEMBERS?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. IS THIS THROUGH BOTH THE CONSENSUAL CONTACTS AND
15 FROM INTERVIEWS AND CRIMES?
16 A. YES. I DON'T STAY IN MY OFFICE EVERY DAY. I
17 WORK IN REGULAR CLOTHES. I DO GO OUT. IF SOMEBODY GETS
18 DETAINED OR SOMEBODY GETS STOPPED OR I COVER OFFICERS ON
19 STOPS, DURING THOSE CONTACTS I DO TALK TO THE GANG
20 MEMBERS, SPECIFICALLY TO THOSE AREAS WHERE I'M ASSIGNED
21 TO.
22 RIGHT NOW I AM IN LOGAN, SO I'LL GO AND RESPOND
23 TO LOGAN AREAS WHERE THEY HAVE'EITHER DOMESTIC VIOLENCE--
24 SOMETIMES JUST A FIELD CONTACT WITH THE OFFICER, THERE'S
25 NO CRIME, THERE'S JUST OFFICERS TALKING TO THEM, I'LL JUST
26 STOP AND TALK TO THEM. SO I CONTACT GANG MEMBERS ON A
27 REGULAR BASIS.
28 I DO ENGAGE WITH THEM IN CONVERSATIONS, AND
1536
1 THAT'S HOW I LEARN EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON IN THE GANG

2 AT THAT TIME. SOMETIMES THEY FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WHEN
3 THEY'RE TALKING TO YOU AND YOU'RE NOT WEARING THE UNIFORM.
4 THEY'LL TELL YOU WHAT'S GOING pN.
5 YOU CAN SOMETIMES -- YOU SEE THE GRAFFITI, YOU
6 ASK THEM, uHEY, WHAT'S THIS? WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS?
7 WHY YOU GUYS ARE CROSSED OUT BY OTHER RIVAL GANG MEMBER?
8 WHAT'S GOING ON WITH SO-AND-SO?" AND THAT'S HOW I LEARN
9 EVERYTHING.
10 THEY'LL TALK TO ME. THEY WON'T TELL ME
11 EVERYTHING, BUT THEY'LL TALK TO ME OR I'LL PICK LITTLE
12 THINGS THAT WILL LEAD ME INTO SOMETHING OF WHAT'S GOING ON
13 AND DISCUSS THAT WITH OTHER GANG MEMBERS, OTHER COMMUNITY
14 MEMBERS AND ALSO OFFICERS.
15 Q. SO YOU DO TALK TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY THAT
16 ARE NOT INVOLVED IN GANGS?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THAT?
19 A. THE PURPOSE OF THAT, WHEN THEY'RE NOT -- EVEN
20 WHEN THEY'RE NOT VICTIMS OF A CRIME COMMITTED BY A GANG, I
21 GO TALK TO THEM. SOMETIMES I SEE -- I KNOW THAT
22 SOMETHING'S GOING ON IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.
23 I'LL GO AND KNOCK ON A DOOR, IDENTIFY MYSELF AS
24 A DETECTIVE. I'VE TALKED TO LADIES IN A HOME AND TELL
25 THEM, "IS THERE SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO TO HELP YOU WITH
26 THE COMMUNITY? IS THERE A PROBLEM THAT I CAN ADDRESS?
27 WHAT ARE YOU .. -- "TELL ME WHAT"' S GOING ON."
28 THOSE CITIZENS, CONCERNED CITIZENS, THEY TELL ME
1537
1 WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD: "OH, I HEARD THIS. SO-AND-SO IS

2 DOING THIS. SO-AND-SO JUST TAGGED OVER HERE. I HEARD
3 THAT SOMEBODY GOT ROBBED, AND I THINK THIS IS THE PERSON
4 THAT DID IT." SO ALL THIS INFORMATION, IT COMES A LOT
5 FROM CONCERNED CITIZENS IN THE COMMUNITY.
6 THAT'S ONE OF THE WAYS I CONTACT WITH THEM.
7 ANOTHER WAY IS WHEN THEY BECOME VICTIMS AND WITNESSES. I
8 OBTAIN ONE OF THOSE FIELD INTERVIEWS, THE NUMBERS, PHONE
1
9 NUMBERS. I LL GIVE THEM A CALL, SEE IF THEY HAVE HEARD
10 SOMETHING. I GIVE THEM USUALLY MY PHONE NUMBER AND
11 THEY'LL CALL ME AND GIVE ME INFORMATION ALSO.
12 Q. NOW, ONE OF YOUR DUTIES WAS TO GATHER
13 INTELLIGENCE AND INFORMATION ON GANG MEMBERS. YOUR OTHER
14 DUTY WAS TO INVESTIGATE GANG CRIMES. DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER
15 DUTY KNOWN AS "DOCUMENTATION"?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. WHAT IS DOCUMENTATION IN TERMS OF GANG MEMBERS?
18 A. IN ORDER TO DOCUMENT A GANG MEMBER -- THERE'S
19 HUNDREDS OF GANG MEMBERS. NOT,EVERYBODY IS DOCUMENTED
20 WITH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT AS A GANG MEMBER.
21 IN ORDER FOR US TO DOCUMENT SOMEBODY AS A GANG
22 MEMBER, IT HAS TO MEET A CRITERIA. THE CRITERIA WAS SET
23 BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, AND IT GIVES US A LIST OF
24 CRITERIA.
25 BUT ADDITIONAL TO THAT, THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
26 DEPARTMENT IS A LITTLE BIT STRICTER AND IT REQUIRES ONE
27 ADDITIONAL CRITERIA. THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REQUIRES
28 TWO CRITERIA OFF A LIST. THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT
1538
1 REQUIRES THREE CRITERIA IN ORDER FOR US TO DOCUMENT.

2 SOME OF THE CRITERIA IS THE PERSON HAS ADMITTED
3 TO A POLICE OFFICER OR LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT HE IS A MEMBER
4 OF THAT GANG; THE PERSON HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR A
5 GANG-RELATED CRIME; THE PERSON ASSOCIATES WITH OTHER KNOWN
6 GANG MEMBERS; THE PERSON HAS TATTOOS THAT IDENTIFY AS A
7 MEMBER OF THAT SPECIFIC GANG; THE PERSON WEARS CLOTHING
8 THAT IDENTIFIES TO THAT SPECIFIC GANG; THE PERSON HAS
9 PARAPHERNALIA, INCLUDING GRAFFITI, BELT BUCKLES, SOMETHING
10 THAT HE DOES HAVE IN THEIR POSITION THAT IDENTIFIES AS A
11 MEMBER OF THAT GANG; THE PERSON FREQUENTS THOSE AREAS THAT
12 ARE KNOWN TO BE FREQUENTED BY THE SPECIFIC GANG;
13 AND THAT PERSON ALSO IS -- WHEN ANOTHER GANG
14 MEMBER OR AN UNRELIABLE -- UNTESTED PERSON TELLS US THAT
15 THAT'S A GANG MEMBER, ALSO WHEN A RELIABLE SOURCE
16 IDENTIFIED THAT PERSON AS A GANG MEMBER, AND THAT INCLUDES
17 A PERSON THAT COULD BE A CONFIDENTIAL INFORMANT.
18 AND ONE SINGLE CRITERIA THAT IS -- WHEN THEY DO
19 THE CLASSIFICATION INTERVIEW -- THAT MEANS THAT WHEN THAT
20 PERSON GETS ARRESTED -- HE GETS INTERVIEWED IN JAIL AND IN
21 THAT INTERVIEW THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS A GANG MEMBER
22 OF A SPECIFIC GANG.
23 Q. IS THERE A TIME FRAME THESE CRITERIA MUST BE MET
24 IN ORDER TO BECOME DOCUMENTED?
25 A. YES. LET'S SAY THIS PERSON IN THE LAST SIX
26 MONTHS HAS BEEN SEEN WITH ANOTHER GANG MEMBER, HAS BEEN
27 HAS THE TATTOOS AND HAS COMMITTED A CRIME. THAT'S ENOUGH
28 FOR US TO DOCUMENT HIM AS A GANG MEMBER.
1539
1 BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, IF THIS PERSON 10 YEARS

2 AGO WAS SEEN WITH ANOTHER GANG MEMBER, COMMITTED A CRIME
3 AND FOR 10 YEARS DIDN'T DO ANYTHING AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I
4 SEE HIM AND NOW HE DOES HAVE A'TATTOO THAT SAYS "LOGAN," I
5 AM NOT GOING TO USE THOSE CRITERIA THAT HE MET 10 YEARS
6 AGO BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT BE FAIR. FOR THOSE 10 YEARS THAT
7 PERSON HAS NOT BEEN SEEN OR DONE ANYTHING THAT IS GANG
8 RELATED.
9 SO IT'S OUR CRITERIA. WE DO NOT HAVE A SET
10 WHERE BETWEEN TWO, THREE YEARS WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TO -- WE
11 GET TO DECIDE HOW LONG THE PERIOD OF TIME, BUT IT HAS TO
12 BE REASONABLE.
13 Q. SO YOU GET TO USE YOUR JUDGMENT IN SOME OF
14 THESE?
15 A. YES, CORRECT.
16 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE TWO BROTHERS, ONE OF
17 THEM IS A KNOWN GANG MEMBER BUT THE OTHER BROTHER IT'S
18 UNKNOWN, AND THEY'RE SEEN ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS
19 HANGING OUT TOGETHER, EVEN THOUGH THAT FITS THE CRITERIA
20 UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND UNDER SAN DIEGO P.O.,
21 WOULD YOU DOCUMENT THAT PERSON?
22 A. I WOULD NOT DOCUMENT THAT PERSON.
23 Q. WHY NOT?
24 A. EVEN THOUGH IT MEETS THE CRITERIA, I DO
25 UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S HIS BROTHER AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE
26 SEEN TOGETHER, THEY'RE GOING TO BE TOGETHER, AND THAT DOES
27 NOT NECESSARILY TELL ME THAT THAT'S ALSO A GANG MEMBER.
28 Q. YOU SAID ONE OF THE THINGS WAS FREQUENTING A
1540
1 GANG NEIGHBORHOOD. WHAT IF THE PERSON LIVES IN THAT GANG

2 NEIGHBORHOOD?
3 A. THAT IS A VERY GENERAL DESCRIPTION TO THAT
4 CRITERIA. IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, I KNOW THOSE HOUSES
5 WHERE THEY HANG OUT. I KNOW THAT AT THE CORNER OF
6 39th AND OCEAN VIEW THERE IS A GANG MEMBER THAT LIVES
7 THERE AND THERE'S TONS OF GANG MEMBERS THAT VISIT THAT
'
8 HOUSE. THAT IS A HANGOUT FOR THAT GANG; THAT'S A KNOWN
9 HANGOUT FOR THAT GANG. THERE IS ALSO A PARK TWO BLOCKS
10 AWAY THAT THEY HANG OUT OVER THERE.
11 I KNOW THAT THAT GANG CLAIMS THAT AREA AND
12 THAT'S A HANGOUT, BUT IF THIS GANG MEMBER IS WALKING TWO,
13 THREE BLOCKS AWAY AND STOPS AND SAYS HI TO ANOTHER PERSON,
14 EVEN THOUGH THAT IS PART OF THE GANG TERRITORY, I DON'T
15 CONSIDER THAT AS A KNOWN GANG AREA OR AS A KNOWN PLACE FOR
16 A GANG MEMBER. I'VE HAD TO USE MY DISCRETION AND SAY,
17 "THIS IS A PLACE WHERE I KNOW THEY HANG OUT ON A REGULAR
18 BASIS, AND I KNOW THIS TO BE A GANG HANGOUT."
19 Q. SO USING THE PARK AS,AN EXAMPLE, IF THERE'S A
20 PARK THAT'S KNOWN WHERE GANG MEMBERS FREQUENT, WHAT IF A
21 BUNCH OF PEOPLE GO THERE TO PLAY SOCCER? IS THAT A
22 CRITERIA?
23 A. NO. THERE IS -- AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR
24 JUDGMENT, WHAT IS IT THEY'RE DOING, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE
25 YOU SEEN THEM IN THAT PLACE. IF YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF
26 THAT GANG CLAIMING THAT SPECIFIC PARK AS PART OF THEIR
27 TERRITORY, IF THEY HANG OUT ALL THE TIME OVER THERE, IF
28 THEY CLAIM THAT AS PART OF THEIR GANG SET OR THEIR
1541
1 TERRITORY, THAT WILL BE A GANG HANGOUT BECAUSE YOU SEE

2 THEM THERE ON A REGULAR BASIS.
3 THE COMMUNITY KNOWS THAT'S A HANGOUT FOR THOSE
4 GANG MEMBERS. OFFICERS SEE THEM ON A REGULAR BASIS THERE,
5 DRIVING BY, EVEN IF THEY DON'T STOP AND TALK, SO THOSE ARE
6 SPECIFIC PLACES THAT ARE BEING IDENTIFIED AS A GANG
7 HANGOUT.
8 Q. ONE OF THE CRITERIA YOU MENTIONED IS TATTOOS.
9 UNDERSTANDING THAT TATTOOS ARE MOSTLY PERMANENT -- YOU CAN
10 GET SOME REMOVED -- IF A PERSON GETS A TATTOO IN THE YEAR
11 2000, THE NEXT YEAR, IN 2001, A POLICE OFFICER DOES A
12 FIELD INTERVIEW CARD AND NOTES THAT TATTOO DOWN, IF THAT
13 SAME TATTOO IS SEEN BY YOU THIS YEAR, IS THAT A CRITERIA
14 AGAIN?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. HOW DOES IT WORK WITH TATTOOS?
17 A. HOW IT WORKS WITH TATTOOS, OFFICERS, DURING THAT
18 FIELD INTERVIEW -- IT HAS ONE LINE WHERE YOU WRITE ALL THE
19 TATTOOS. WHAT I DO WITH THE CARDS IS I'LL REVIEW EVERY
20 SINGLE CARD AND I SEE THAT LAST MONTH HE DID HAVE A TATTOO
21 OF "LOGAN" OR "SHELLTOWN" ON HIS CHEST AND THIS MONTH HE
22 DOES HAVE A FRESH TATTOO OF SOMETHING ELSE BELOW THE
23 "SHELLTOWN." IT HAS A NUMBER. THAT WILL BE A NEW ONE.
24 THAT'S THE WAY SOMETIMES YOU CAN FIND OUT WHETHER IT'S A
25 NEW ONE OR WHETHER IT'S AN OLD TATTOO.
26 SOMETIMES THE OFFICER JUST WRITES, "IT'S
27 SHELLTOWN." YOU SEE IT THREE MONTHS FROM NOW, IT'S STILL
28 THE SAME "SHELLTOWN" TATTOO, A YEAR LATER, STILL THE
1542
1 "SHELLTOWN" TATTOO. YOU GO BACK AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO TRY

2 TO IDENTIFY WHEN WAS IT THAT THAT PERSON FIRST GOT THAT
3 TATTOO.
4 MOST OF THE TIME I'LL JUST ASK THEM "HOW LONG
5 HAVE YOU HAD THAT TATTOO?" AND THEY'LL TELL YOU.
6 Q. NOW, THE PERSON MEETS THE THREE CRITERIA AND
7 THEY BECOME DOCUMENTED. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BECOME
8 DOCUMENTED?
9 A. WHEN -- DOCUMENTED DOESN'T AFFECT YOU UNLESS
10 YOU'RE INVOLVED IN A CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. TO BE DOCUMENTED,
11 IT'S JUST A WAY FOR US DETECTIVES TO KEEP TRACK OF THOSE
12 ACTIVE MEMBERS OF THE GANG; IT'S A WAY TO MONITOR THEIR
13 ACTIVITY.
14 EVERY TIME I SEE ANOTHER CRITERIA OR ANOTHER
15 PERSON THAT'S HANGING OUT WITH THIS PERSON, I ALREADY KNOW
16 THAT THIS PERSON'S DOCUMENTED. SO IT'S JUST A WAY TO TRY
17 TO SOLVE CRIMES, TRY TO HAVE SOME SORT OF INFORMATION
18 GATHERED TOGETHER ALREADY IN A PLACE WHERE I KNOW THIS
19 PERSON, THESE PEOPLE, ARE ACTIVE.
20 I KNOW HIS MONIKER, I KNOW WHO HE HANGS OUT WITH
21 AND, IF THEY COMMIT A CRIME, I'LL GO TO THEIR FILES TO SEE
22 WHO THEY HANG OUT WITH, WHAT HE GOES BY, AND I WILL USE
23 SOME OF THE INFORMATION IN MY INVESTIGATION.
24 SO IT'S JUST A WAY -- IT'S A TOOL TO MONITOR THE
25 GANG MEMBERS.
26 Q. WHEN A PERSON BECOMES DOCUMENTED, ARE THEY
27 NOTIFIED THAT THEY'RE DOCUMENTED?
28 A. NO.
1543
1 Q. THE DATABASE THAT THIS IS KEPT IN, IS THAT

2 CALLED CAL-GANGS?
3 A. CAL-GANGS IS JUST A WAY OF -- A COMPUTER
4 RESOURCE SYSTEM, A RESOURCE FOR US TO EASILY FIND THEM.
5 Q. WHO HAS ACCESS TO CAL-GANGS?
6 A. US DETECTIVES.
7 Q. NOBODY ELSE?
..
8 A. YEAH, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAS ACCESS.
9 Q. I SHOULD SAY OUTSIDE OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS
10 THERE ANYONE WHO HAS ACCESS?
11 A. I KNOW LAW ENFORCEMENT. I DO NOT LIMIT IT TO
12 WHAT LEVEL OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES HAVE ACCESS.
13 Q. THIS ISN'T A WEBSITE SIMILAR TO -- I THINK THE
14 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DOES ONE FOR SEXUAL OFFENDERS WHERE
15 YOU CAN LOOK UP IN CALIFORNIA AND SEE WHERE SEXUAL
16 OFFENDERS ARE LIVING.
17 A. NO, IT'S NOT LIKE THAT.
18 Q. IN FACT, THE PUBLIC HAS ZERO ACCESS TO
19 CAL-GANGS; IS THAT CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT.
21 Q. ONCE SOMEBODY BECOMES DOCUMENTED, CAN THEY EVER
22 BECOME NO LONGER DOCUMENTED?
23 A. YES, AND WE CALL IT TO BE "PURGED" FROM THE
24 SYSTEM OF DOCUMENTATION. WHEN THAT PERSON -- LET'S SAY I
25 DOCUMENT SOMEBODY IN 2005. FIVE YEARS FROM THAT DATE OF
26 APRIL 1st, 2005, I DOCUMENT THIS PERSON AND
27 APRIL 1st OF 2010, IF THAT PERSON DOESN'T DO ANYTHING
28 GANG RELATED IN A PERIOD OF FIVE YEARS, AUTOMATICALLY GETS
1544
1 PURGED.
2 WE HAVE ONE PERSON THAT IS IN CHARGE OF
3 REVIEWING EVERY SINGLE FILE OF THOSE GANG MEMBERS. ONCE
4 IT GETS PURGED, WE CANNOT KEEP ANY OF HIS RECORDS, ANY OF
5 HIS FIELD CARDS; WE CANNOT KEEP ANY OF HIS DOCUMENTS THAT
6 ARE IN THAT FILE. WE HAVE TO SHRED EVERYTHING, AND THAT
7 PERSON IS NO LONGER DOCUMENTED AS A GANG MEMBER.
8 Q. AND DISCRETION AGAIN PLAYS A ROLE HERE, CORRECT?
9 A. THAT'S NOT MY DISCRETION IF THE --
10 Q. IN TERMS THOUGH OF THE FIVE-YEAR PERIOD OF HIM
11 OR HER NOT MEETING ANY CRITERIA WITHIN THOSE FIVE YEARS?
~
12 A. IF HE DOESN'T MEET ANY CRITERIA, EVEN THOUGH

13 THAT I KNOW THAT THAT PERSON IS ACTIVE BUT I DON'T HAVE
14 ANY POLICE REPORTS DOCUMENTING THAT THAT PERSON IS STILL
15 ACTIVE, I STILL HAVE TO PURGE HIM.
16 SO IF I DON'T HAVE A FIELD CARD, A CRIME REPORT
17 AND A REG. REPORT OR A CONTACT WHERE I CAN PROVE THAT THAT
18 PERSON IS STILL ACTIVE, I HAVE TO PURGE THEM FROM THE
19 SYSTEM.
20 Q. AND, AGAIN, THE SAME EXAMPLES WOULD APPLY: IF
21 TWO BROTHERS ARE DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBERS AND THEY'RE
22 HANGING OUT WITH EACH OTHER, THE FIVE-YEAR PERIOD DOESN'T
23 REALLY APPLY TO THAT, DOES IT?'
24 A. I WOULD NOT USE THE TWO BROTHERS AS A CRITERIA.
25 SO THE TIME'S STILL RUNNING UNLESS I DRIVE BY AND I SEE
26 HIM HANGING OUT WITH OTHER MEMBERS THAT I KNOW THEY ARE
27 GANG MEMBERS AND THEY'RE ON A CORNER WHERE I KNOW THEY
28 HANG OUT AND I SEE THEM OVER THERE AND I'LL TELL THEM,
1545
1 "WHAT ARE YOU DOING OVER HERE?" I CONFIRM THAT'S HIM, AND
2 I CAN WRITE THAT INFORMATION AND KEEP HIM AS AN ACTIVE
3 GANG MEMBER, AND FROM THAT TIME IT STARTS ANOTHER
4 FIVE-YEAR PERIOD.
5 Q. IT JUST KEEPS GOING ONCE THE CRITERIA IS MET?
6 THE FIVE-YEAR BLOCK IS RUNNING AGAIN?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. WE KEEP REFERRING TO GANG-RELATED CRIMES. IF A
9 DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER COMMITS A CRIME THAT HAS NOTHING TO
10 DO WITH A GANG, SAY HE GETS A DUI OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
11 THAT DOESN'T START THE FIVE YEARS OVER AGAIN EITHER,
12 CORRECT?
13 A. CORRECT. IF IT'S JUST A MERE DUI WHERE HE WAS
14 NOT WEARING ANY GANG RELATED CLOTHING, HE WAS NOT IN THE
15 COMPANY OF ANY OTHER GANG MEMBERS, HE WAS NOT INVOLVED IN
16 ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH GANGS, THAT WOULD NOT BE USED
17 AS A CRITERIA.
18 Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT NOT ALL GANG
19 MEMBERS ARE DOCUMENTED. WHY IS THAT?
20 A. NOT ALL GANG MEMBERS ARE DOCUMENTED. IT'S VERY
21 HARD TO DOCUMENT ALL GANG MEMBERS AND ONE OF THE REASONS
22 IS TIME AND THE RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE. WE ONLY HAVE A
23 FEW DETECTIVES FOR A SPECIFIC GANG.
24 WHEN I HAD SHELLTOWN AND MARKET, I HAD OVER 300
25 GANG MEMBERS THAT I HAD TO MONITOR EVERY DAY. IT WAS
26 IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO PUT EVERY.. SINGLE PAPER THAT IS
27 NECESSARY TO DOCUMENT THAT PERSON. I KNEW OF AND I HAD A
28 LIST OF ALL THE ONES THAT THEY HAD ALREADY MET THE
1546
1 CRITERIA, BUT JUST BECAUSE OF TIME, I COULDN'T DOCUMENT

2 THEM ALL.
3 ANOTHER REASON IS THEY DON'T COME AND TELL US,
4 "WE'RE GANG MEMBERS." THEY'RE NOT ORDERED-- UNLESS
5 THEY'RE ORDERED BY THE COURT. IF THEY HAD COMMITTED A
6 CRIME WHERE IT WAS GANG RELATED AND THE JUDGE HAD ORDERED
7 THEM TO COME AND REGISTER AS A GANG MEMBER, THAT'S WHEN I
8 KNOW.
9 THEY'LL HAVE TO CALL ME AND TELL ME, "I HAD TO
10 REGISTER AS A GANG MEMBER." THAT'S WHEN I-- SOMETIMES
11 IT'S THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVER LEARNED FROM THEM, YOU
12 KNOW, THIS PERSON IS A MEMBER OF A GANG THAT I MONITOR,
13 AND, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TIME I HEAR THE NAME, AND THAT'S
14 WHEN I START THE DOCUMENTATION PROCESS.
15 Q. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS OF GANG
16 MEMBERSHIP, SAY FOR SHELLTOWN OR MARKET OR LOGAN, ARE YOU
17 USING JUST WHO'S DOCUMENTED?
18 A. THOSE THAT ARE JUST DOCUMENTED, YES.
19 Q. SO LET'S SAY LOGAN -~ LOGAN RED STEPS HAS 100
20 DOCUMENTED MEMBERS. IS THAT THE FULL EXTENT OF LOGAN RED
21 STEPS' MEMBERSHIP?
22 A. NO. IT COULD BE THREE TIMES AS MUCH AS I HAVE
23 DOCUMENTED, ESPECIALLY ON A GANG SUCH AS LOGAN. LOGAN HAS
24 A LOT OF SUBSETS AND A LOT OF AFFILIATES THAT ARE LOGAN
25 AFFILIATES: LOGAN RED STEPS, LOGAN TREINTA, LOGAN TRECE,
26 LOGAN 33rd, ALL THIS IS UNDER LOGAN.
27 THERE'S HUNDREDS OF THEM, AND THERE'S PROBABLY A
28 FEW HUNDRED THAT ARE NOT DOCUMENTED.
1547
1 Q. RELYING UPON YOUR EXPERIENCE ON THE GANG

2 SUPPRESSION TEAM AS WELL AS BEING A GANG DETECTIVE, IS IT
3 YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT GANG MEMBERS HAVE HEARD ABOUT
4 DOCUMENTATION?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. DO THEY WANT TO BE DOCUMENTED?
7 A. NO, FOR THE MOST PART THEY DON'T WANT TO BE
8 DOCUMENTED.
9 Q. GIVEN THIS INVENTION OF DOCUMENTATION, HAVE YOU
10 HEARD THE TERM, WHEN YOU ASKED, "ARE YOU A GANG MEMBER?"
11
11 A PHRASE, "I USED TO KICK IT WITH
.. ?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?
14 A. THAT'S A WAY OF THEM TELLING US WHO THEY HANG
15 OUT WITH AND WHO THEY BELONG TO, AND IT DEPENDS ON THE AGE
16 OF THIS PERSON. IF IT'S A 13-YEAR-OLD TELLING ME THAT, "I
17 USED TO KICK IT WITH," I KNOW THAT'S PROBABLY SOMEONE THAT
18 IS STILL ACTIVE. IF IT'S A 40-YEAR-OLD WHO HAS ALL THESE
19 TATTOOS AND I STOP THEM IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT AREA, PART
20 OF THE CITY, AND HE TELLS ME, "YEAH, I USED TO KICK IT
21 WITH LOGAN," PROBABLY HE IS HONESTLY TELLING THAT'S WHAT
22 HE USED TO BE IN AND NOW HE HAS MOVED ON IN LIFE .
..
23 Q. AND IT COULD ALSO MEAN THAT HE ACTUALLY USED TO
24 KICK IT WITH THAT GROUP, CORRECT?
25 A. YES, CORRECT, YES.
26 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD PEOPLE USE THIS TERM WHILE
27 ACTUALLY HANGING OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS?
28 A. "I'M HANGING OUT WITH"?
1548
1 Q. LIKE SUCH AS, YOU KNOW, YOU ROLL UP ON THE

2 CORNER OF 40th AND OCEAN VIEW, YOU SEE FOUR SHELLTOWN
3 GANG MEMBERS, YOU ASK ONE OF THEM IF THEY'RE A MEMBER OF
..
4 SHELLTOWN, AND THE PERSON SAYS, "WELL, I USED TO KICK IT
5 WITH SHELLTOWN" WHILE THEY'RE ACTUALLY KICKING IT WITH
6 THREE MEMBERS RIGHT THERE.
7 A. OH, YES, YES. THEY WILL NOT ALWAYS TELL US,
8 "YEAH, I'M STILL HANGING OUT. I'M STILL KICKING WITH."
9 THEY'LL SAY, "I USED TO," AND THE MEANING IS "I USED TO
10 AND I STILL DO."
11 Q. SO JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAYS THEY USED TO, YOU
12 HAVE TO LOOK BEHIND THE WORDS TO SEE THE SITUATION THIS
13 PHRASE IS SAID WITHIN?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT SHELLTOWN SPECIFICALLY,
16 DETECTIVE GASCA. WHERE DOES YOUR KNOWLEDGE BASE FOR
17 SHELLTOWN COME FROM?
18 A. FIRST, I LIVED IN THIS AREA FOR SEVERAL YEARS
19 BEFORE BECOMING A POLICE OFFICER. WHEN I FIRST CAME TO
20 THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, MY FIRST ASSIGNMENT WAS TO
21 SOUTHEASTERN DIVISION, AND IT COVERS THE AREA OF
22 SHELLTOWN. ACTUALLY, AT THE TIME I WAS STILL LIVING IN
23 THAT AREA. IT WASN'T UNTIL I HAD TWO YEARS IN THE
24 DEPARTMENT WHEN I MOVED OUT OF THERE.
25 I WAS ASSIGNED TO THAT DIVISION, AND ONE OF MY
26 BEAT AREAS WAS -- INCLUDED THE .. SHELLTOWN AREA. I BECAME
27 FAMILIAR WITH THE GANG MEMBERS IN THE AREA, THE AREAS THAT
28 THEY CLAIM, THE CITIZENS IN THE AREA AND THE TYPE OF
1549
1 CRIMES THEY WERE HAVING AND PROBLEMS THEY WERE HAVING IN

2 THAT COMMUNITY.
3 Q. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SHELLTOWN, THERE'S AN ACTUAL
4 PART OF SAN DIEGO CALLED SHELLTOWN OFFICIALLY; IS THAT
5 CORRECT?
6 A. CORRECT.
7 Q. WE ALSO USE THE WORD SHELLTOWN -- IT CAN ALSO
8 REFER TO THE GANG THAT OCCUPIES THAT AREA AS WELL?
9 A. CORRECT.
10 Q. HOW MANY GANGS DO YOU KNOW OF IN THE TOWN OF
11 SHELLTOWN?
12 A. IN THE TOWN OF SHELLTOWN THERE IS SHELLTOWN 38,
13 THERE IS SHELLTOWN GAMMA BOYS, THERE IS ALSO A BLACK SET
14 THAT IS THE 5/9 BRIMS. THERE'S ALSO -- ONE SIDE OF IT, A
15 PART OF IT, IS SOUTHEAST LOCOS, AND THERE'S SOME OF THE
16 SOUTHEAST 7-3 THAT LIVE IN THIS AREA, AND ALSO -- NOT --
17 FOR THE LAST COUPLE YEARS THERE'S A GANG THAT IS OEK 46
18 ALSO THAT HAS BEEN CLAIMING THIS AREA OF ONE PART OF THE
19 AREA OF SHELLTOWN.
20 Q. NOW, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SHELLTOWN, THE GANG, IS
21 THAT ONE GANG OR TWO GANGS?
22 A. SHELLTOWN IS -- INITIALLY WAS ONE GANG,
23 SHELLTOWN 38. AS THEY GREW UP -- IT'S A LARGE GROUP
24 THEY DIVIDED INTO GROUPS. THE GAMMA BOYS, SHELLTOWN GAMMA
25 BOYS, AND THE OTHER GROUPS STILL REMAIN SHELLTOWN 38.
26 THOSE TWO GROUPS ARE UNDER SHELLTOWN AND THOSE TWO GROUPS
27 WILL NOT FIGHT AMONG THEMSELVES.
28 THEY AFFILIATE. THEY STILL CLAIM THE SOUTHERN
1550
1 PART OF SHELLTOWN BY GAMMA AND THE NORTH PART OF SHELLTOWN

2 BY THE 38 GUYS. THEY HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES TOGETHER, BUT
3 THEY ALSO HAVE FIGHTS, BUT IT WILL BE PERSONAL MORE THAN A
4 GANG FIGHT.
5 Q. NOW, WE'VE HEARD THE TERM "SUBSETS" BEING USED.
6 ARE SHELLTOWN 38 AND SHELLTOWN GAMMA SUBSETS OR ARE THEY
7 SEPARATE GANGS?
8 A. SHELLTOWN 38 IS A SEPARATE GANG AND SHELLTOWN
9 GAMMA BECAME A SEPARATE GANG, SO THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT
10 GANGS.
..
11 Q. SO IF WE WERE TO COMPARE THAT WITH A DIFFERENT
12 GANG, SAY LIKE LOGAN -- AND WE'VE HEARD TREINTA, RED STEPS
13 AND OTHER LOGAN GANGS -- ARE THOSE SEPARATE GANGS OR ARE
14 THOSE SUBSETS?
15 A. THOSE ARE SEPARATE GANGS. THEY AFFILIATE. THEY
16 WILL NOT FIGHT AMONG THEMSELVES. THEY'LL HELP EACH OTHER
17 IN A FIGHT AGAINST SHERMAN OR LOMAS OR SHELLTOWN, BUT THEY
18 ARE CONSIDERED THEIR OWN GANG AND THEY ARE DOCUMENTED AS
19 AN INDIVIDUAL GANG.
20 Q. IN TERMS OF SHELLTOWN 38th STREET, HOW CAN YOU
21 DESCRIBE THEIR MEMBERSHIP OR THE STRUCTURE, IF THEY HAVE
22 ONE?
23 A. YES. THE STREET GANGS ARE DIFFERENT THAN AN
24 ORGANIZED -- ORGANIZED CRIME SUCH AS MOTORCYCLE OUTLAWS.
25 MOTORCYCLE OUTLAW GANGS, THEY'RE VERY ORGANIZED. THEY
26 HAVE A PRESIDENT, THEY HAVE A VICE PRESIDENT, A SECRETARY,
~
27 AND THEY HAVE THE PEOPLE THAT -- A PERSON IN CHARGE OF
28 ARMS, AND THEY HAVE ASSIGNMENTS FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN
1551
1 THEIR GANG.
2 HISPANIC GANGS DO NOT RUN LIKE THAT. HISPANIC
3 GANGS ARE BASED ON A STRUCTURE THAT WAS SET BY THE MEXICAN
4 MAFIA. THE MEXICAN MAFIA CONTROLS THE PRISON GANGS AND
5 ALSO CONTROLS THE SOUTH PART OF CALIFORNIA, AND UNDER --
6 STREET GANGS FOLLOW THE RULES OF THIS MEXICAN MAFIA.
7 THE STREET GANGS ON THE STREET, THE WAY THEY'RE
8 RUN, YOU'LL HAVE THE HARDCORE GANG MEMBERS, AND USUALLY IT
9 WILL BE CALLED "O.G. 'S" OR 11
0RIGINAL GANGSTERS," OLDER
10 GUYS. IT ALSO CAN BE A YOUNG GUY WHO HAS ACQUIRED THAT
11 LEVEL BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE, THE ACTIVITY AND THE WORK
12 THAT HE HAD PUT IN TO ACQUIRE THAT LEVEL OR TO BE AT THE
13 LEVEL OF THOSE OLDER GANGSTERS.
14 YOU HAVE THE GENERAL MEMBERS AND YOU HAVE THE
15 ONES THEY HANG AROUND, THE ONES THAT ARE NOT YET ADMITTED
16 AS A GANG MEMBER BUT THEY'RE PUTTING IN ALL THIS WORK AND
17 THEY HANG OUT WITH THE GANGS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BECOME A
18 MEMBER OF THAT GANG.
19 Q. IS SHELLTOWN 38th STREET A HISPANIC STREET
20 GANG?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IN SAN DIEGO IN GENERAL, ARE GANGS MOSTLY
23 DIVIDED AMONG ETHNIC OR RACIAL LINES?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IS LOGAN ALSO A HISPANIC STREET GANG?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. SHERMAN?
28 A. YES.
1552
1 Q. SOUTHEAST LOCOS?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. IS IT YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT MOSTLY THEN IN TERMS
4 OF ALLIES OR RIVALS, IS IT ALSO ALONG THE SAME ETHNIC
5 LINES?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, WHO IS ONE OF SHELLTOWN 38'S CHIEF
8 RIVALS?
9 A. LOGAN, RED STEPS AND LOGAN TREINTA, ANY LOGAN
10 SET.
11 Q. YOU TESTIFIED THAT THERE'S AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN
12 GANG KNOWN AS 5/9 BRIM THAT ALSO CLAIMS THE SAME AREA OF
13 SHELLTOWN.
14 A. PART OF THE AREA IN SHELLTOWN, YES.
15 Q. IS THERE ANY RIVALRY BETWEEN SHELLTOWN
16 38th STREET AND 5/9 BRIM THAT YOU KNOW OF?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. DOES IT APPEAR THAT BOTH CAN COEXIST WITHOUT
19 THERE BEING AN ISSUE BETWEEN THE BLACK GANGS AND HISPANIC
20 GANGS?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. AND THAT'S, STRICTLY SPEAKING, FOR SAN DIEGO?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. IN TERMS OF SHELLTOWN 3gth STREET AND HISPANIC
25 STREET GANGS IN GENERAL, DOES SHELLTOWN 38th STREET
26 APPEAR TO BE OPERATED IN A SIMILAR FASHION AS MOST
27 SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA HISPANIC STREET GANGS?
28 A. YES.
1553
1 Q. GIVEN THAT THIS IS AN INFORMAL TYPE OF

2 MEMBERSHIP, HOW WOULD ANYBODY KNOW WHAT TO DO?
3 A. THOSE ARE SET RULES. THEY'RE NOT -- IT'S NOT
4 LIKE A CONTRACT OR SOMETHING THAT YOU JUST -- THEY HAVE TO
5 READ IN ORDER TO -- WHEN YOU BECOME A MEMBER YOU READ THIS
6 AND YOU'RE GOING TO ABIDE BY THESE LAWS. IT'S NOT.
7 THERE'S UNWRITTEN RULES THAT GANG MEMBERS -- AND
8 I CAN TELL YOU ME AS A HISPANIC FEMALE GROWING UP IN AN
9 AREA WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF GANGS, THOSE ARE RULES THAT
10 YOU ALWAYS HEAR, THOSE ARE RULES THAT YOU KNOW THEY'RE
11 THERE. NOBODY TOLD ME WHAT THEY WERE, BUT I KNEW JUST
12 GROWING UP, LISTENING TO THE CLASSMATES, LISTENING TO THE
13 PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, LISTENING TO THOSE: YOU'RE
14 NOT SUPPOSED TO SNITCH, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TALK TO THE
15 POLICE, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO -- IF YOU SEE SOMEBODY FROM
16 ANOTHER GANG, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ACT.
17 THOSE RULES ARE THERE. IT IS THE OLDER GANG
18 MEMBERS THAT ARE GOING TO ENFORCE THOSE RULES IF
19 SOMEBODY'S NOT COMPLYING OR DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO
20 BE DOING, AND THAT'S A WAY OF LEARNING THEM. A YOUNGSTER
21 GANG MEMBER WHO'S NOT DOING WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE
22 DOING, OLDER GANG MEMBERS ARE ~OING TO LET HIM KNOW THAT
11
23 YOU'RE MESSING UP, .. AND THEY'RE GOING TO PUT YOU IN
24 CHECK, AND THAT'S HOW YOU LEARN THE RULES.
25 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BASIC RULES?
26 A. THERE IS NO SNITCHING. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO
27 AFFILIATE WITH ANYONE FROM OTHER -- RIVAL GANG MEMBERS.
28 YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DEFEND YOUR TERRITORY. YOU'RE SUPPOSED
1554
1 TO PUT WORK IN.

2 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. WHAT WAS THE LAST PART?
3 THE WITNESS: PUT WORK IN FOR THE GANG.
5 THE WITNESS: YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DEFEND YOUR
6 TERRITORY. IF YOU SEE SOMEBODY COMING INTO THAT
7 TERRITORY, WHETHER IT'S A GANG MEMBER OR NOT, YOU'RE
8 SUPPOSED TO GO AND CONFRONT THIS PERSON, "WHERE YOU FROM?
9 WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?" BEING INVOLVED IN ANY
10 GANG-RELATED ACTIVITY.
11 IF SOMEBODY IS STEALING A CAR AND YOU DON'T DO
12 ANYTHING -- YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO JUST SIT AND WATCH;
13 YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PARTICIPATE IN THOSE CRIMES.
14 IF YOU ARE A VICTIM OF A CRIME, YOU'RE NOT
15 SUPPOSED TO TELL THE OFFICER WHO DID IT. YOU'RE NOT
16 SUPPOSED TO EVEN TELL US WHAT HAD HAPPENED.
17 THOSE ARE SOME OF THE ONES THAT I CAN JUST THINK
18 ABOUT RIGHT NOW.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
11
20 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD THE TERM BACKING YOUR HOMIES"?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT IS "BACKING YOUR HOMIES"?
23 A. BACKING UP YOUR HOMIES IS LIKE BEING INVOLVED IN
24 A CRIME, AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SUPPORT THE OTHER GANG
25 MEMBERS OF THE GANG. IF THEY COMMIT A CRIME AND THEY TELL
26 YOU, "DRIVE US OVER HERE," YOU'LL
.. DRIVE THEM OVER THERE,
27 AND YOU'LL DRIVE THEM OUT OF THE AREA.
28 IF YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE CAR AND THEY'RE
1555
1 GOING TO DO A SHOOTING, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DRIVING THEM

2 TO THAT PLACE WHERE THEY WANT TO GO. IF YOU SEE
3 SOMEBODY'S GETTING BEAT UP BY ONE PERSON, YOU'RE SUPPOSED
4 TO JUMP IN.
5 THERE'S NOT SUCH A RULE OF ONE-ON-ONE ANYMORE,
6 IT'S JUST YOUR GANG AGAINST ONE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO WIN
7 THAT FIGHT NO MATTER WHAT, AND~ THAT'S THE WAY YOU'RE GOING
8 TO BACK UP YOUR PEOPLE: YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SHOW UP WITH
9 THAT SUPPORT THAT THEY NEED.
10 IF IT'S A SHOOTING, IF THERE IS A CRIME, THEY GO
11 OVER THERE, THEY CREATE THAT INTIMIDATION ON REGULAR
12 CITIZENS. IT'S NOT ALWAYS JUST AGAINST RIVAL GANG
13 MEMBERS.
14 IF SOMEBODY IS STEALING SOMETHING FROM A CAR,
15 THE OTHER ONES, THE OTHER FRIENDS, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO
16 WATCH. IF SOME NEIGHBOR COMES AND SAYS, "WHAT ARE YOU
17 GUYS DOING?" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO INTIMIDATE THOSE
18 NEIGHBORS, NOT LET THEM INTERFERE WITH WHAT THE GANG
19 MEMBER'S DOING.
20 SO THOSE ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF BACKING UP YOUR
21 GUYS.
22 Q. YOU MENTIONED A TERM JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO,
23 "WHERE ARE YOU FROM?" IS THIS A TERM OFTEN USED BY GANG
24 MEMBERS?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
27 A. "WHERE YOU FROM" IS JUST A CHALLENGE. IT'S A
Y OF CHALLENGING SOMEBODY. IT'S A WAY OF TELLING YOU
1556
1 WHO RULES. "WHERE YOU FROM" THEY CAN TELL THEM NOW. EVEN
2 IF YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE A GANG MEMBER AND THEY ASK YOU
11
3 WHERE YOU FROM," IT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KNOW
4 WHETHER YOU'RE FROM L.A., FROM TIJUANA OR SAN YSIDRO.
5 THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT GANG YOU'RE FROM, AND 11
YOU'RE NOT
6 FROM MY GANG . "
7 THEREFORE, YOU'RE GOING TO BE CHALLENGED TO DO
8 SOMETHING, AND NO MATTER WHAT YOU ANSWER -- IF YOU DON'T
9 ANSWER -- IF YOUR ANSWER IS NOT THAT YOU'RE FROM THE SAME
10 GANG, YOU'RE GOING TO BE A VICTIM OF WHATEVER THE
11 INTENTION WAS: IF THEY'RE GOING TO BEAT YOU, THEY'RE
12 GOING TO SHOOT YOU, THEY'RE GOING TO ROB YOU. THEY'RE
13 GOING TO FOLLOW UP WITH A VIOLENT ACT MOST OF THE TIMES.
14 Q. GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH STREET GANGS IN
15 SAN DIEGO, IS THE PHRASE "WHERE YOU FROM" OFTEN FOLLOWED
16 UP WITH VIOLENCE?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. PHYSICAL VIOLENCE?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WEAPON USAGE?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. TO DATE, DO YOU KNOW,IF THERE'S A RIGHT ANSWER
23 OR NOT TO THAT QUESTION?
24 A. THERE'S NO RIGHT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. YOU
25 MIGHT BE IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO'S
26 ASKING YOU. IT MIGHT BE YOU'RE IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD,
27 SOMEBODY FROM A RIVAL GANG COMES OVER AND TELLS YOU "WHERE
28 YOU FROM?" IF YOU'RE FROM SHELLTOWN, YOU'RE GOING TO SAY,
1557
1 "WELL, I'M IN SHELLTOWN. I'M FROM SHELLTOWN." WELL, IT

2 HAPPENS TO BE THAT THAT'S A RIVAL GANG AND THEY'RE LOOKING
3 FOR SHELLTOWN GUYS TO SHOOT.
4 SO THERE'S NO RIGHT ANSWER NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE
5 GOING TO SAY. IF YOU SAY, "I DON'T BANG. I DON'T DO
6 ANYTHING. I'M A NORMAL PERSON. I HAVE A JOB. I
7 DON'T" -- "I'M NOT INTO IT," YOU STILL ARE GOING TO BE A
8 VICTIM OF THEIR CRIME OR THEIR INTENTIONS, WHATEVER THEY
9 WERE GOING TO DO TO YOU.
10 Q. YOU ALSO USED THE TERM "PUT IN WORK." WHAT IS
11 PUTTING IN WORK?
12 A. PUTTING IN WORK IS WHEN IF YOU WANT TO BECOME
13 A GANG MEMBER, IF YOU ARE 13, 14, 15 YEARS OLD, SOMETIMES
14 OLDER, IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT YOU CAN BE A GANG MEMBER,
15 YOU'RE GOING TO START BY PUTTING IN WORK, AND THAT WILL BE
16 AS GRAFFITI. YOU'RE GOING TO START TAGGING EVERYWHERE
17 THAT YOU'RE FROM LOGAN, SHELLTOWN, WHATEVER GANG YOU'RE
18 TRYING TO JOIN.
19 YOU'RE GOING TO LET EVERYBODY KNOW THAT "THAT'S
20 MY TERRITORY." YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DEFEND THAT TERRITORY.
21 YOU'RE GOING TO -- THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
22 USUALLY -- THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST COMMON THINGS THAT YOU
23 SEE WHEN THEY'RE PUTTING IN WORK, AND THEY'LL TELL YOU.
24 BEER RUNS. THEY'LL GO TO THE STORE. THEY BRING
25 A 24-PACK AND THEY'LL BRING IT TO THE PARK AND THEY'LL
..
26 GIVE IT TO THE OLDER GUYS THERE HANGING OUT, AND THAT'S A
27 WAY OF BRINGING IT, "HEY, YOU'RE BRINGING US BEER," SO
28 THAT'S GOOD FOR YOU.
1558
1 IF YOU SEE SOMEBODY, YOU ARE THE FIRST ONE -- IF

2 YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE HANGING-AROUND GUYS, YOU SEE SOMEBODY,
3 YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GO AND CONFRONT THAT PERSON. NOT THE
4 OLDER GUYS; THOSE ARE JOBS FOR THE YOUNGER GUYS.
5 YOU'RE GOING TO BE DOING AUTO THEFTS, STREET
6 ROBBERIES, BEATINGS. YOU'LL GO TO RIVAL NEIGHBORHOODS AND
7 PUT IN TAGGING FROM YOUR OWN GANG ON THE RIVAL GANG AREA.
8 YOU'LL BE HANGING OUT ALL THE TIME. IF THEY TELL YOU TO
9 BE THERE AT A CERTAIN TIME, SUCH AND SUCH TIME, YOU'RE
10 SUPPOSED TO BE THERE.
11 SO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT YOU ARE VIOLENT ENOUGH,
12 YOU'RE BRAVE, YOU HAVE THE COURAGE, YOU'RE NOT A WEAK
13 PERSON, AND YOU HAVE EVERYTHING THAT REQUIRES TO BECOME A
14 GANG MEMBER, AND THAT'S THE WAY OF SHOWING IT UP.
15 Q. YOU ALSO USED THE TERM "PUT IN CHECK" OR
16 "CHECKING." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
17 A. TO PUT IN CHECK OR TO CHECK IS IF YOU GO -- IT'S
18 A WAY TO-- IF I SAID "GO CHECK
..
THAT PERSON," IT'S GO FIND
19 OUT WHAT THE PERSON'S DOING OVER HERE AND PUT THEM IN
20 PLACE. IF THAT PERSON DOESN'T BELONG IN THIS AREA, I
21 EXPECT YOU TO GO AND DO SOMETHING, AND THAT SOMETHING IS
22 GOING TO BE A VIOLENT ACT.
23 "HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE. GO BEAT HIM UP,"
24 AND "HE'LL LEARN. LET HIM KNOW THIS IS SHELLTOWN. YOU
25 DON'T COME TO MY TERRITORY." THAT'S A WAY OF "GO CHECK
26 THAT PERSON. GO DO THIS."
27 USUALLY THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS, "I WENT TO CHECK
28 HIM UP" OR "I DID"-- 11
I HIT HIM UP," THAT'S ALSO THE SAME
1559
1 WAY; "GO HIT HIM UP" IS THE SAME THING AS "CHECK THAT
2 PERSON UP."
3 ALSO, IF I'VE BEEN CHECKED IS THAT I DID
4 SOMETHING I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO DO, AND THAT SAME WAY,
5 THEY'RE GOING TO COME TO ME AND TELL ME WHAT I'M DOING,
6 AND I'M GOING TO PAY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DOING
7 WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO DO.
8 Q. THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE VIOLENCE USED AS
9 PUNISHMENT WITHIN THE GANG?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD THE TERM "RESPECT" IN TERMS OF
12 STREET GANGS?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT IS RESPECT IN THE GANG CULTURE?
15 A. RESPECT IS EVERYTHING FOR A GANG MEMBER AND FOR
16 A GANG. RESPECT IS FEAR. IF YOU'RE IN A GANG, THERE
17 IS -- THEY ASK A LOT OF RESPECT. IT'S BECAUSE PROBABLY
18 THEY'RE VERY VIOLENT AND THEY ASSUME THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE
19 RESPECT THEM, THEY'RE ABOVE EVERYBODY.
20 THE WAY THEY GAIN THAT RESPECT IS BY BEING
21 VIOLENT. IF THEY DO A BURGLARY AND THEY LET THE PEOPLE
22 KNOW THAT THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED,TO CALL THE POLICE, THEY'RE
23 NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL WHO IT WAS, AND THEY DON'T, THEY GAIN
24 RESPECT; THE GANG GAINS A HIGHER STATUS AS A VIOLENT
25 STATUS.
26 INTIMIDATION ON THE PEOPLE GIVES THEM RESPECT,
27 WHAT THEY ASSUME IS RESPECT. THE WAY USUALLY -- ALWAYS
28 IS -- THE WAY THEY GAIN RESPECT IS BY DOING VIOLENT ACTS.
1560
1 FEAR EQUALS RESPECT FOR THEM. THEY WANT TO BE RESPECTED

2 NOT ONLY FOR THE RIVAL GANGS, AMONG THEIR OWN, AND ALSO
3 RESPECT IN THE COMMUNITY. THA~'S HOW THEY GAIN IT, BY
4 COMMITTING VIOLENT CRIMES.
5 Q. DO YOU GAIN MORE RESPECT FOR CERTAIN CRIMES
6 VERSUS OTHERS?
7 A. THE MORE VIOLENT, THE MORE RESPECT YOU GAIN, THE
8 HIGHER STATUS YOU ACQUIRE.
9 Q. DOES RESPECT ALSO COME FROM PUTTING IN WORK?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO IF SOMEONE WENT OUT AND PUT A GRAFFITI 100
12 TIMES, IS THERE SOME SORT OF TABLE WE CAN SAY TO HOW MUCH
13 RESPECT THAT WOULD EARN THEM?
14 A. I DON'T THINK THERE IS SOME -- YOU HAVE TO DO 10
'
15 BLOCKS OF GRAFFITI IN ORDER TO GAIN THIS STATUS. THERE'S
16 NOT SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IT WILL BE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF
17 DIFFERENT ACTS.
18 IF YOU'VE BEEN TAGGING, YOU'VE BEEN PUTTING ON
19 ALL THIS TAGGING, YOU WENT TO ANOTHER NEIGHBORHOOD AND
20 DISRESPECTED THE OTHER NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU HAVE DONE THIS,
21 YOU HAVE DONE ROBBERIES, YOU'RE GIVING US THIS, YOU BEAT
22 UP SOMEBODY ELSE FOR THE GANG, ALL THIS IS -- THIS IS HOW
23 YOU GAIN THE RESPECT IN THE GANG.
24 HEY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CAN PUT UP WITH ALL THIS
25 THAT WE WANT, AND WE CAN SEE THAT YOU HAVE NO FEAR AND YOU
26 HAVEN'T SHOWN ANY WITNESSES, THAT'S HOW YOU START GAINING
27 RESPECT BY OLDER GANG MEMBERS, SO IT WILL NOT BE THAT YOU
28 HAVE TO DO CERTAIN THINGS AND HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE TO
1561
1 DO IT IN ORDER TO GAIN THAT.

2 Q. IN TERMS OF THE STRUCTURE IN THE GANG AND A
3 MEMBER'S PLACE WITHIN THE GANG, IS RESPECT HOW ONE MOVES
4 UP IN STATURE WITHIN THE GANG?
5 A. THE RESPECT, THE SAME WAY. IF YOU'RE VERY
6 VIOLENT, THE MORE RESPECT YOU GAIN BY THOSE IN YOUR GANG,
7 SO THAT'S HOW YOU MOVE ON. THEY'LL RESPECT YOU. THEY
8 KNOW YOU'RE VIOLENT, THEY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE UP TO, THEY
9 KNOW WHAT YOU'RE CAPABLE OF DOING, AND THEN YOU GO HIGHER
10 IN THE STATUS IN THAT GANG.
11 AND THE HIGHER THE STATUS ON THOSE GANG MEMBERS,
12 THE HIGHER THE STATUS IS FOR THE GANG ITSELF. WHEN THAT
13 GANG HAS A LOT OF MEMBERS, THEY'RE KNOWN FOR THE VIOLENT
14 ACTS THAT THEY COMMIT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, NOT ONLY THE
15 NEIGHBORS OF THE COMMUNITY, THE POLICE IN THE AREA, BUT
16 ALSO THE RIVAL GANG MEMBERS FIND OUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING,
17 AND THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON OVER THERE, AND THAT'S HOW
18 THEY LIVE, THEY SURVIVE. THEY CONSTANTLY FIGHT FOR THAT
19 STATUS IN -- HERE IN SAN DIEGO, WHO'S THE MOST VIOLENT
20 GANG BECAUSE THAT WILL GIVE THEM MORE RESPECT.
21 ONCE THEY GET CAUGHT AND THEY'RE KNOWN FROM --
22 THEY'RE COMING FROM LOGAN, THEY'RE COMING FROM SHELLTOWN,
23 AND THEY GO TO PRISONS, THEY ALSO HAVE THAT RESPECT IN
24 PRISON. THEY KNOW WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM VERSUS COMING
25 FROM SOME LITTLE GANG THAT HAS NO NAME AND HAVEN'T
26 ACQUIRED ANYTHING.
27 Q. SO IN TERMS OF -- WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT O.G. 'S
28 AND -- MOST OF THEM ARE OLDER GANG MEMBERS, BUT YOU SAID
1562
1 SOME MAY BE YOUNGER AS WELL, IS THAT HOW ONE COULD BE A

2 YOUNG PERSON YET BE CONSIDERED AN O.G., IF THEY WERE TO
3 RACK UP THAT MUCH RESPECT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WITHIN THE GANG AND IN TERMS OF THE O.G.'S AND
6 THE RESPECT LEVEL, WHO LISTENS TO WHO? IS IT THE O.G.'S
7 RUN THE SHOW AND THE PEOPLE UNDERNEATH THEM HAVE TO DO
8 WHAT THEY SAY?
9 A. YES. FOR THE MOST PART, THE OLDER GANG
10 MEMBERS -- EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING, WHAT THEY'RE
11 INVOLVED IN. THEY DON'T NEED TO BE DIRECTED WHAT TO DO
12 TODAY, WHAT TO DO TOMORROW. THEY'LL GO AND DO THEIR USUAL
13 GANG ACTIVITY ON A REGULAR BASIS.
14 IF AN OLDER GANG MEMBER TELLS YOU THAT
15 SO-AND-SO FROM ANOTHER GANG IS DOING SOMETHING, AND "YOU
16 GUYS BETTER REACT TO SOMETHING," YOU KNOW, REACT TO WHAT
17 THEY'RE DOING, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GO AND DO WHAT THEY'RE
18 TELLING YOU TO DO. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GO TO THE RIVAL
19 GANG AREA AND EITHER DO A SHOOTING, DO A STABBING, DO WHAT
20 YOU NEED TO DO IN ORDER TO SHOW THEM YOU'RE NOT JUST GOING
21 TO COME TO MY AREA AND DISRESPECT MY GANG.
22 OLDER GANG MEMBERS ARE THE ONES THAT USUALLY
23 WILL COME UP AND TELL THOSE GUYS, "WHAT'S UP WITH ALL THIS
24 TAGGING FROM LOGAN IN MY AREA? WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING?"
25 THEY CONFRONT THE YOUNGSTERS, THEY CONFRONT THE REGULAR
26 MEMBERS TO "YOU GUYS ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING. WE'RE --
27 "SO-AND-SO" -- "WE ARE GETTING ARRESTED. WE ARE DOING
28 THIS. THIS IS GOING ON," SO THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT
1563
1 CONTROL MOST -- THAT HAS THE MOST CONTROL OVER THE GANG
2 SETS.
3 Q. CAN A YOUNGSTER DO ANYTHING THEY WANT? HAVE YOU
4 HEARD THE TERM "YOUNGSTER" BEFORE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHAT IS A YOUNGSTER?
7 A. A YOUNGSTER WILL BE THAT PERSON THAT STARTED
8 TO -- HANGING OUT, AND THEY CALL THEM YOUNGSTERS BECAUSE
9 THEY USUALLY WILL BE BETWEEN THE AGES OF 13, 14 UP, 16 UP,
10 TO 18 YEARS OLD WHEN THEY START HANGING OUT.
11 THEY WANT TO BECOME MEMBERS AND THEY'RE THE MORE
12 ACTIVE, WHEN, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO GET INTO THE GANG, AND
13 THEY REFER TO THEM AS YOUNGSTERS.
14 Q. DOES A YOUNGSTER NEED TO BE DIRECTED TO TAG
15 THINGS?
16 A. NO. THEY ACTUALLY EXPECT THEM TO DO IT WITHOUT
17 THEM TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO.
18 Q. DOES A YOUNGSTER HAVE TO CHECK OR FIGHT A RIVAL
19 WITHIN THEIR TERRITORY?
20 A. NO, THAT'S ALSO -- THEY'RE ALSO EXPECTED TO DO
21 THAT. THEY'RE SEEN AS SOLDIERS. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO
22 DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY AND THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO GO AND
23 FIGHT FOR ANYTHING THAT IS GOING TO GIVE THEM THAT
24 RECOGNITION AS A GANG.
25 Q. SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OPERATING ON
26 THEIR OWN AND WHEN AN O.G. COMES AND TELLS A YOUNGSTER TO
27 DO SOMETHING?
28 A. THEY NORMALLY OPERATE ON THEIR OWN ON THE
1564
1 REGULAR ACTIVITIES THAT THEY HAVE ON A DAILY BASIS. WHEN

2 AN OLDER HOMIE, AN OLDER GANG MEMBER COMES AND TELLS THEM,
3 IT'S USUALLY FOR A SPECIFIC REASON THAT HE COMES AND TELLS
4 THEM WHAT TO DO.
5 Q. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF A YOUNGSTER WAS TOLD BY AN
6 O.G. TO DO SOMETHING AND HE DIDN'T DO IT?
7 A. HE'LL SUFFER A CONSEQUENCE.
8 Q. WHAT COULD THOSE CONSEQUENCES BE?
9 A. THOSE CONSEQUENCES CAN BE BEATINGS, STABBINGS.
10 IT COULD BE DRIVING THEM OUT OF -- JUMPED OUT OF THE GANG,
11 KILLINGS. DEPENDS ON HOW THE GANG IS GOING TO -- THOSE
12 OLDER GANG MEMBERS ARE GOING TO HANDLE IT AND WHAT WAS THE
13 LEVEL OF DISRESPECT OR DISOBEDIENCE THAT HE COMMITTED.
14 Q. SO A LOT OF IT VARIES ON HOW -- WHAT THE
15 DISRESPECT IS AND THE CONTEXT?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. HOW DOES ONE DISRESPECT A GANG MEMBER?
18 A. YOUR OWN GANG OR -- '
19 Q. LET'S START WITH YOUR OWN GANG.
20 A. YOUR OWN GANG, ONE OF THE WAYS IS WHEN THEY TALK
21 TO US AS A POLICE OFFICER, THEY'LL SAY HE WAS A VICTIM OF
22 A SHOOTING, AND I'LL GO AND TALK TO THEM, AND THAT PERSON,
23 THAT GANG MEMBER, TELLS ME WHAT HAD HAPPENED, WHO WAS HE
24 WITH, WHO DID IT, WHERE IT HAPPENED AND GIVE ME, AS A
25 REGULAR VICTIM, EVERYTHING IN A STATEMENT.
26 I WILL HAVE TO WRITE A REPORT. I'LL BRING HIM
27 TO COURT. IF THE GANG FINDS OUT THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME ALL
28 THIS INFORMATION, THAT PERSON WILL SUFFER SOME
1565
1 CONSEQUENCES FOR TALKING TO US, FOR TELLING US IT THAT HE

2 WAS WITH SO-AND-SO DURING THE SHOOTING OR STABBING, THAT
3 HE DID THIS. EVERYTHING THAT HE GAVE US, HE WILL PAY FOR
4 THAT.
5 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL ME WHO HE WAS WITH,
6 WHO DID IT AND DEFINITELY NOT SUPPOSED TO SHOW UP IN COURT
7 TO TESTIFY. THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN
8 CRIMES, YOU KNOW, AND DO A RETALIATION. IF THEY SHOT YOU,
9 YOU SWALLOW IT AND THEN "WE'LL MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT," BUT
10 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO COOPERATE WITH THE POLICE.
11 ANOTHER WAY IS YOU ARE EXPECTED TO DEFEND YOUR
12 TERRITORY AND YOU DIDN'T. THAT WILL BE -- YOU WILL SUFFER
13 CONSEQUENCES. YOU'RE EXPECTED TO BACK UP AND SUPPORT YOUR
14 GANG MEMBERS, AND YOU DIDN'T, YOU SHOWED WEAKNESS. THAT
15 WILL BE A CONSEQUENCE. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
16 EVERYTHING THAT IS AGAINST THOSE RULES,
17 UNWRITTEN RULES THAT THEY GO AND LIVE BY, YOU WILL PAY A
18 CONSEQUENCE.
19 Q. HOW WOULD ONE THEN GO AND DISRESPECT A RIVAL OR
20 A DIFFERENT GANG?
21 A. JUST GOING TO THEIR OPPOSITE NEIGHBORHOODS,
22 WRITE, YOU KNOW, YOUR GANG IN THE RIVAL GANG. THAT WILL
23 BE ONE. DOING A SHOOTING ON THAT GANG SET. ANYONE,
24 WHETHER IT'S A GANG MEMBER OR IT'S NOT A GANG MEMBER, A
25 REGULAR CITIZEN, THEY'LL YELL OUT, "WE'RE FROM LOGAN.
26 THIS IS LOGAN." OR, IN THE OPPOSITE, "THIS IS SHELLTOWN.
27 THIS IS MARKET," AND THEY'LL LET THEM KNOW THAT THAT'S ME
28 THAT'S DOING IT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD.
1566
1 THEY'LL DO COMMERCIAL BURGLARIES. THEY'LL STEAL

2 CARS FROM YOUR COMMUNITY, THE RIVAL COMMUNITY. THEY'LL DO
3 ANY TYPE OF CRIMES. WHAT THEY,DO IN THEIR OWN
4 COMMUNITIES, THEY ALSO WILL DO IT IN THE OPPOSITE
5 COMMUNITY AND LET THEM KNOW THAT'S THEM THAT DID IT.
6 Q. IN THE SPECTRUM OF DISRESPECT, BOTH
7 DISRESPECTING RIVALS AND DISRESPECTING YOUR OWN, WHERE
8 DOES SNITCHING FALL?
9 A. IT FALLS -- SNITCHING IS A BAD, BAD THING TO DO
10 WHEN YOU'RE A GANG MEMBER. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO -- WHAT
11 11
THEY CALL IT, A RAT. 11
YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL ANYONE
12 WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR GANG.
13 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TALK TO THE POLICE.
14 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO EVEN TELL SOMEBODY ELSE. IF, YOU
15 KNOW, SOMETHING HAPPENED IN YOUR GANG, YOU KEEP IT THERE,
16 YOU KEEP IT TO YOURSELF, YOU DON'T TALK TO OTHER GANG
17 MEMBERS ABOUT IT. YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T TELL OTHER PEOPLE,
18 YOU DON'T TELL YOUR PARENTS, YOU DON'T TELL ANYONE.
19 A SNITCH IS A PERSON THAT YOU CANNOT TRUST
20 ANYMORE. THAT PERSON TALKS. THEY'LL CALL THEM A LOT OF
21 DIFFERENT NAMES. I HAVE SEEN CASES WHERE THOSE PEOPLE HAD
22 BEEN BASICALLY RAN OUT OF THEIR HOMES WITH THEIR ENTIRE
23 FAMILIES BECAUSE THEY SNITCHED, AND THEY HAVE TAGGED THEIR
24 HOMES AND THEY HAVE DRIVEN EVERYBODY OUT OF THEIR HOMES:
25 MOMS, KIDS. THEY'LL BEAT UP THEIR BROTHERS. THEY'LL BEAT
26 UP THEM. THEY'LL DO EVERYTHING TO TAKE THEM OUT OF THE
27 GANG AND HAVE THEM PAY THE CONSEQUENCES FOR SNITCHING.
28 Q. YOU'VE DESCRIBED EARLIER FOR US ABOUT
1567
1 COOPERATING WITH THE POLICE IF YOU'RE A VICTIM. HOW DOES

2 SNITCHING, THOUGH, DIFFER FROM THAT?
3 A. IT JUST DEPENDS HOW THEY SEE IT. THERE'S NO SET
4 RULE "YOU CAN ONLY TELL US SO MUCH. YOU CAN TELL US THIS
5 LIITLE, AND THAT WILL NOT BE SNITCHING." IT DEPENDS HOW
6 THEY SEE IT.
..
7 SOMETIMES JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE WILLING TO TALK
8 TO ME, AND EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ANYTHING, YOU
9 MIGHT BE CONSIDERED A SNITCH BECAUSE THEY SAW THEM WITH ME
10 TALKING, OR THEY SAW THEM WITH AN OFFICER. THEY'LL TRY TO
11 FIND OUT WHAT IT IS THAT YOU SAID. IT'S JUST A NO TRUST
12 TYPE THING.
13 SNITCHING -- WE HAVE GANG MEMBERS THAT HAVE TOLD
14 US WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN A CRIME AND EITHER THEY'VE BEEN
15 VICTIMS AND HAVE NEVER, EVER -- NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO
16 THEM. BUT IN THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, CASE, IT'S JUST AS
17 LIITLE AS TALKING TO ME THAT THEY ARE CONSIDERED SNITCHES,
18 AND THEY WILL BE -- THEY WILL PAY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES.
19 IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE GANG PERCEIVES THAT
20 SNITCHING.
21 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF ONE GANG
22 MEMBER TELLING THE POLICE WHAT A DIFFERENT GANG MEMBER
23 DID?
24 A. THAT'S CONSIDERED SNITCHING ALSO. YOU'RE NOT
25 SUPPOSED TO TELL US WHO DID IT, WHO IS THE ONE THAT CAME
26 AND DID THE SHOOTING. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO HELP US IN
27 ANY OF THE INVESTIGATIONS. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO KEEP IT TO
28 THEMSELVES AS A GANG, AND THEY WILL RETALIATE AGAINST THE
1568
1 RIVAL GANG.
2 Q. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE PENALTIES FOR THAT FORM OF
3 SNITCHING?
4 A. IT COULD BE UP TO BEATINGS, STABBINGS, KILLINGS,
5 RUNNING OUT OF THE GANG, DIFFERENT TYPES OF VIOLENT CRIMES
6 AGAINST THAT PERSON.
7 Q. DOES IT DEPEND ON THE TYPE OF CRIME THAT'S BEING
8 SNITCHED ON?
9 A. NO, NOT REALLY. IT COULD BE SOMETHING MINOR,
10 JUST BECAUSE THE GANG TOOK OFFENSE TO YOU TALKING OR
11 SNITCHING, SAYING SOMETHING, THAT COULD BE ENOUGH FOR THEM
12 TO BEAT YOU UP OR RUN YOU OUT OF THE GANG, JUMP YOU OUT,
13 YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BE WITH THEM.
14 Q. CAN IT ALSO DEPEND ON WHAT GANG MEMBER OR WHICH
15 GANG MEMBER YOU'RE SNITCHING ON?
16 A. NO, I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. IT'S THE
17 SAME THING. IT WILL APPLY TO ANY LITTLE OR A LOT OF
18 INFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN. DOESN'T MATTER WHAT GANG
19 OR AGAINST WHOM.
20 Q. HOW DOES ONE JOIN A HISPANIC STREET GANG?
21 A. HISPANIC STREET GANGS ARE -- FOR THE MOST PART,
22 YOU HAVE TO BE ACCEPTED IN AND\JUMPED INTO THE GANG.
23 YOU'LL HAVE THE OLDER GANG MEMBERS, AND THEY ARE THE ONES
24 THAT ARE GOING TO APPROVE WHETHER YOU BECOME ONE OF THEM
25 OR NOT.
26 IF THEY SAID, "HEY, THIS PERSON HAS SHOWN
27 COURAGE, HAS SHOWN HE CAN BE VIOLENT, HAS DONE ALL THIS
28 FOR THE GANG. HE WAS WITH SO-AND-SO WHEN THEY WENT TO DO
1569
1 A ROBBERY. HE DIDN'T RAN. HE DID" -- "EVERYTHING HE'S

2 SUPPOSED TO DO, HE DID," THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ONE OF THE
3 OLDER HOMIES PROBABLY TO SAY, "'HEY, YOU KNOW, HE'LL BE ONE
4 OF US," AND THEY WILL JUMP HIM IN.
5 IT USUALLY INCLUDES A BEATING BY MOST OF THE
6 OLDER THAT PARTICIPATE -- A FEW OF THE OLDER GANGSTERS,
7 THE OLDER ONES THAT WILL DO THE INITIATION PROCESS, THAT
8 WILL BEAT THEM UP FOR "X" AMOUNT OF SECONDS. IT DEPENDS
9 ON THE GANG.
10 IF IT'S -- SOMETIMES -- IF IT'S, SAY, SHELLTOWN
11 38, THEY MIGHT SAY 38 SECONDS. IF IT'S LOGAN 30, THEY'LL
12 SAY 30 SECONDS. IF IT'S SOMETHING WITH A 13, IT MIGHT BE
13 13 SECONDS. IT DEPENDS ON HOW THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS.
14 THEY'LL HAVE THAT RITUAL THEY GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO
15 BECOME A MEMBER.
16 ALSO ANOTHER WAY OF BECOMING A GANG MEMBER,
17 THEY SOMETIMES YOU SKIP THAT INITIATION PROCESS IF ALL
18 YOUR FAMILY HAS BEEN A MEMBER OF THAT GANG. YOU GET A
19 PASS BY THE BEATING.
20 IF YOUR OLDER BROTHERS ARE ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS,
21 THEY MIGHT GIVE YOU A BREAK AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BREAK
22 YOU UP AND THEN YOU ACCEPTED, AND YOU'VE BEEN HANGING OUT
23 WITH THEM SINCE YOU WERE LITTLE, YOU'RE PART OF THEM AND
24 YOU HAVE SHOWN AND YOU HAVE THAT -- YOU HAVE THAT
25 INITIATION PROCESS PROBABLY -- YOU'RE JUST WASHED OUT OF
26 THAT PROCESS AND YOU BECOME ONE OF THEM AND THEY CONSIDER
27 YOU ONE OF THEM BECAUSE OF THE OLDER BROTHERS.
28 Q. NOW, IN TERMS OF JOINING A GANG, CAN SOMEONE
1570
1 JUST OFF THE STREETS, OUT OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD, WALK UP TO

2 SOMEBODY AND SAY, "HEY, I WANT TO JOIN SHELLTOWN
3 38th STREET"?
4 A. NO. THEY USUALLY WILL BE SOMEBODY THAT GREW UP
5 IN THAT AREA, THAT HANGS OUT, EITHER THEY KNOW EACH OTHER.
6 FROM SCHOOL, THEY KNOW -- THEY ALL LIVE IN THAT AREA.
7 THEY START HANGING OUT. THEY START KIND OF
8 LIKING WHAT THE GANG SET DOES, AND THAT'S HOW THEY START.
9 THEY HANG AROUND. THEY'RE JUST THERE. THEY'RE JUST THERE
10 TO SHOW THEIR FACES, AND THAT'S HOW THE PEOPLE --
11 THEY DON'T JUST ADMIT ANYONE. THEY HAVE NEVER
12 SEEN YOU BUT YOU WANT TO JOIN, YES, YOU'LL GET JUMPED IN.
13 YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT YOU CAN BE -- AND DESERVE TO BE A
14 MEMBER OF THAT GANG.
15 Q. IN TERMS OF PUNISHMENT, WHO NORMALLY HANDLES THE
16 PUNISHMENT WITHIN A GANG?
17 A. THE PUNISHMENT, THAT CAN BE DONE BY EVEN THE
18 YOUNGSTERS. EITHER TELL THEM ,- IF ONE OF THE OLDER
19 MEMBERS TELL THEM THAT "SO-AND-SO WASN'T DOING WHAT HE'S
20 SUPPOSED TO BE DOING," AND, "HEY, THEY SAID THAT HE TOOK
21 UP RUNNING," OR "SO-AND-SO WAS WITH ANOTHER GANG; THEY SAW
22 HIM, ANOTHER GANG MEMBER, THEY SAW HIM WITH THEM," EVEN
23 THE YOUNGSTERS CAN TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM.
24 IF IT'S BROUGHT UP, THEY CAN -- THEY ARE THE
25 ONES THAT ARE GOING TO TAKE CARE OF IT. IF THEY'RE TOLD
26 "HEY, HE'S NOT DOING WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING," HE'S
27 EXPECTED TO TAKE CARE OF IT.
28 BUT USUALLY IT WILL BE THOSE OLDER GANGSTERS
1571
1 THAT ARE GOING TO SHOW THEM. THE ONES THAT ARE RESPECTED,
2 THE ONES THAT HAVE THE STATUS, THEY'RE GOING TO SHOW THE
3 YOUNGSTERS WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING AND WHAT YOU
4 WEREN'T DOING AND YOU'RE GOING TO PAY FOR THOSE
5 CONSEQUENCES.
6 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE MORE SERIOUS FORMS OF PUNISHMENT
7 LIKE YOU MENTIONED ABOUT THE KILLING OR HARASSING A
8 PERSON'S FAMILY?
9 A. THAT PROBABLY WILL BE DIRECTED OR DONE BY THE
10 OLDER GANG MEMBERS.
11 Q. WHY COULDN'T A YOUNGSTER JUST TAKE IT UPON
12 THEMSELF TO KILL ONE OF THEIR OWN?
13 A. TO KILL ONE OF THEIR OWN? UNLESS IT WAS TOLD BY
14 ONE OF THE OLDER GANG MEMBERS, I DON'T THINK HE HAD
15 ACQUIRED THAT STATUS TO MAKE THOSE TYPES OF DECISIONS. HE
16 DOESN'T HAVE THAT RESPECT TO BE TAKING CARE OF SOMETHING
17 AS SERIOUS AS KILLING SOMEBODY.
18 Q. KILLING ONE OF YOUR OWN MEMBERS IS A RARE
19 OCCURRENCE, IS IT NOT?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN INSTANCES OF WHERE IT'S HAPPENED?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. SO IT DOES HAPPEN?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IN THOSE INSTANCES, IS IT CONDUCTED OR ORDERED
26 OUT BY AN O.G.?
27 A. YES.
28 THE COURT: IS THIS A CONVENIENT TIME FOR THE EVENING
1572
1 RECESS?
2 MR. TROCHA: I THINK SO, YOUR HONOR.
'
3 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'VE COVERED A
4 GOOD DEAL OF GROUND. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED
5 ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER. LET'S PLAN ON RECONVENING AT
6 9:00 O'CLOCK TOMORROW MORNING.
7 PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
8 CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
9 CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON ANY
10 SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL. PLEASE DON'T FORM OR
11 EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL IT IS SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR
12 DECISION.
13 THANKS AGAIN, FOLKS. HAVE A SAFE TRIP HOME,
14 SAFE TRIP BACK. SEE YOU TOMORROW MORNING.
16 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD
17 OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
19 ADDRESSING COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS?
21 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SHOOT.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WAS TALKING TO MR. TROCHA
23 EARLIER TODAY AND ADMITTEDLY BOTHERING HIM OVER THE
24 WEEKEND ABOUT JOSE GUTIERREZ. HE SAID HE'S GOING TO TRY
25 AND GET HIM HERE BY WEDNESDAY, BUT -- HE'S KIND OF A
26 SLIPPERY CHARACTER. I'M GOING TO HAVE MY INVESTIGATOR
27 LOOKING FOR HIM AS WELL, BUT HE'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AT
28 THIS TIME.
1573
1 YOUR RULING AS TO THE CONDITIONAL -- OR THE

2 REMEMBER THE EXHIBIT, THE PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT? IT
3 WAS NOT LET IN BUT WITHOUT PREJUDICE. I'M GOING TO NEED
4 HIM BACK TO DISCUSS THAT AND HAVE IT ADMITTED. THAT'S THE
5 CONDOLENCE LETTER TO MOISES LOPEZ WHERE HE BASICALLY
6 STATES EVERYTHING THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH HIS TESTIMONY.
7 ALSO, I HAVE A RECORDING FROM DETECTIVE LAMBERT
8 AND DETECTIVE WARRICK. I HAVE IT TRANSCRIBED UNDER MY
9 DESK AND AUDIO IN MY BINDER HERE. THAT IS THE INTERVIEW
10 THAT HE GAVE THREE DAYS AFTER THE SHOOTING THAT IS ALSO
11 CONSISTENT WITH WHAT HE TESTIFIED TO. THOSE ARE PRIOR
12 CONSISTENT STATEMENTS I'D LIKE TO ADMIT.
13 SO I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY CONCERN THAT HE'S
14 NOT GOING TO BE HERE. I JUST WANT THE COURT TO BE AWARE
15 THAT WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR HIM AND WE NEED TO -- I THINK
16 THE DEFENSE NEEDS TO GET HIM IN BEFORE THIS TRIAL IS OVER.
17 THE COURT: PEOPLE?
18 MR. TROCHA: IT'S MOSTLY~ MATTER OF SURPRISING HIM
19 IN CERTAIN LOCATIONS TO GET HIM. HE'S BEEN AN INDIVIDUAL
20 THAT WHEN WE'LL CALL AND TELL HIM TO BE IN A LOCATION, HE
21 WON'T BE. SO WE'VE MADE ATTEMPTS TO GIVE HIM A HEADS UP,
22 BUT IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE A MATTER OF GOING OUT AND
23 GETTING HIM, AND WHATEVER DAY WE CAN GET HIM, WE'LL DRAG
24 HIM IN, BUT THERE'S NO WARRANT, SO THAT MAKES IT A LITTLE
25 MORE DIFFICULT.
26 ONCE THEY DO CONTACT HIM PERSONALLY, HE'S BEEN
27 COOPERATIVE.
28 THE COURT: WELL, LET'S EVERYBODY PRESS HARD TO TRY
1574
1 TO GET HIM HERE.

3 THE COURT: I SEE THAT YOU'RE BOTH DOING THAT, AND
4 THANKS FOR GIVING ME THE UPDATE ON THAT ISSUE.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. ALSO, A SEPARATE ISSUE -- I
6 DON'T KNOW, MR. TROCHA, BUT I'VE GOT FOR THIS WITNESS
7 MAYBE OVER AN HOUR BUT NOT MORE THAN THAT, AND SO I AM
8 GUESSING WE'LL BE DONE WITH HER BY NOON.
9 THE COURT: IT SOUNDS LIKE IT.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I MAY BE ABLE TO GET A FEW
11 WITNESSES HERE IN THE AFTERNOON IF I MAKE SOME PHONE
12 CALLS, BUT MOST OF MY WITNESSES ARE ON WEDNESDAY.
13 SHOULD I TRY AND GET PEOPLE HERE FOR THE
~
~.
14 AFTERNOON, OR DO YOU WANT TO PLAN ON JUST HAVING THEM COME
15 IN ON WEDNESDAY MORNING?
16 THE COURT: GENTLEMEN, YOU TWO ARE WORKING HARD ON
17 THIS CASE, I UNDERSTAND THAT, AND EVERYBODY'S, I THINK,
18 BEEN REAL FOCUSED ON THIS. FRANKLY, AT THE RISK OF
19 SOUNDING UNJUDGE-LIKE, I'M HAPPY TO PLAY IT EITHER WAY.
20 IF IT'S ANTICIPATED THE PEOPLE WILL REST TOMORROW --
21 MR. TROCHA: YES.
22 THE COURT: -- THEY'LL REST SUBJECT TO THE RECEIPT OF
23 THE EXHIBITS. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A CERTAIN
24 AMOUNT OF TIME DOING THE ACCOUNTING AND THE BOOKKEEPING ON
25 ALL THE EXHIBITS, WHICH WE'LL DO OUTSIDE OF THE PRESENCE
26 OF THE JURY.
27 I AM WILLING TO START IN THE AFTERNOON, BUT IF
28 IT'S YOUR ALL'S --EITHER OF YOU HAVE A REAL STRONG
1575
1 PREFERENCE THAT WE'D START THE DEFENSE CASE ON WEDNESDAY,

2 I'M STILL HAPPY TO ABIDE BY THAT. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?
'
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, I HAVE A LOT OF WITNESSES --
4 THE COURT: OKAY.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: -- BUT NO LONG WITNESSES. SO I
6 STACKED THEM ALL ON WEDNESDAY THINKING THAT THEY'D SPILL
7 OVER AND THEN I ONLY STACKED JUST A HANDFUL ON THURSDAY.
8 WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GET THROUGH ALL OF MY
9 CASE BY -- BEFORE THURSDAY'S END EITHER WAY WE SLICE IT,
10 THEN WE CAN COME BACK ON THE 18th TO DO THE DNA EXPERT
11 AND POSSIBLY MR. DOMINGUEZ. I WOULD LIKE HIM TO TESTIFY
12 LAST.
13 SO I DON'T KNOW IF IT MATTERS. IF WE DO TAKE MY
14 WITNESSES TOMORROW AFTERNOON, l'M AFRAID THAT MIGHT MEAN
15 THAT WEDNESDAY I DON'T HAVE A FULL DAY FOR US.
16 THE COURT: IF WE START WEDNESDAY MORNING, YOU THINK
17 WE'LL GET DONE WITH THE WITNESSES YOU HAVE BLOCKED IN
18 THERE BY THURSDAY EVENING?
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, I THINK SO.
20 THE COURT: OKAY.
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU AGREE?
22 MR. TROCHA: I DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. ARE THEY THE
23 SAME PEOPLE AS LAST TIME?
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. IT'S DIANA BANUELOS,
25 SIRIA FORD, KRISTIAN MARTINEZ, RONALD MARTINEZ, CAROL
'
26 MARTINEZ. I'M JUST NAMING THE LONG ONES, NOT THE SHORT
27 ONES. LIKE ISHMAEL ACEVES IS 20 -- YOU KNOW, LESS THAN
28 THE COURT: WE JUST NEED TO BE DARK FRIDAY, THAT'S
1576
,..., 1 ALL.
\
2 MR. TROCHA: I KNOW. I THINK YOUR CASE WAS -- THAT
3 CHUNK OF PEOPLE TOOK LIKE THREE DAYS. THAT'S WHAT I
4 REMEMBER, BUT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I WOULD.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I REMEMBER THAT VICTOR DOMINGUEZ,
6 SIRIA FORD, KRISTIAN MARTINEZ AND
..
DIANA BANUELOS TOOK AN
7 AFTERNOON. IT WAS JUST THEM.
8 MR. TROCHA: I'LL RELY ON COUNSEL'S ESTIMATE, YOUR
9 HONOR. I'M COMFORTABLE WITH --
10 THE COURT: WELL, DO YOU WANT TO START PRESENTING
11 EVIDENCE TOMORROW AFTERNOON OR WOULD YOU PREFER TO START
12 WEDNESDAY MORNING?
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I PREFER WEDNESDAY MORNING.
14 THE COURT: WEDNESDAY MORNING IT IS. THANK YOU.
16 THE COURT: NO, I APPRECIATE IT. I KNOW EVERYBODY
17 HERE IS WORKING HARD. WELL DONE.
19 THE COURT: RECESS UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT
20 9:00 O'CLOCK. THANK YOU.
21 (THE PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:19 P.M.)
22 * * *
23
24
25
26
27
28
1 COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO)
2 STATE OF CALIFORNIA)
3
4 I, RINDY M. ORMROD , RPR, CSR NO. 6278, OFFICIAL
5 REPORTER FOR THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF
6 CALIFORNIA, COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO, DO HEREBY CERTIFY:
7 THAT I REPORTED IN MACHINE SHORTHAND THE PROCEEDINGS
8 HELD IN THE FOREGOING CASE, PEOPLE VS. DOMINGUEZ, AND THAT
9 THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT , VOLUME 13, PAGES 1353 THROUGH
10 1576, INCLUSIVE, IS A FULL, TR~E AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPTION
11 OF THE PROCEEDINGS.
12 DATED AT SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA THIS 10TH DAY
13 OF AUGUST, 2011.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 OFFICIAL REPORTER
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNI A
FOURTH APPEL LATE DI STRICT
DIVISION ONE
'
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ) FROM SAN DI EGO COUNTY

CALIFORNIA, ) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDG E
)
PLAI NTIF F AND )
) NO. D060019
vs . )
)
DEFENDANT AND ) J URY TRI AL
APPE LLANT . )
)

APRIL 12 , 2011
VOLUME 14
( PAGES 1577 THROUGH 1765, INC LUS I VE)
AP PEARANCES :
FOR THE PLAI NTIFF KAMALA D. HARRIS
110 WEST A STREET
FOR THE DE FENDANT I N PROPRIA PERSONA

AND APPELLANT:

OFFICIAL REPORTER

)
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ~ )
CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
vs. ) D.A. NO. ACV800
)
)
__________________________)
DEFENDANT. )
r APRIL 12, 2011
VOLUME 14
APPEARANCES:
DISTRICT ATTORNEY
330 WEST BROADWAY
RETAINED COUNSEL

OFFICIAL REPORTER
I ND E X
APRIL 12, 2011
VOLUME 14

CAROL MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ..... 1583 19
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA ............ 1594 24
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ... 1633 6
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA .......... 1637 2
FURTHER REDIRECT BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ....... 1638 2
ANTRIEL MATTHEWS - DEFENSE WITNESS
CARLOS E. ALVARA - DEFENSE WITNESS
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. TROCHA .1673 14
r
I ND E X
APRIL 12, 2011
VOLUME 14

ALVARA, CARLOS E. - DEFENSE WITNESS
GASCA, DETECTIVE MARTHA - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. TROCHA .1673 14
MARTINEZ, CAROL - DEFENSE WITNESS
MATTHEWS, ANTRIEL - DEFENSE WITNESS

OH, OFFICER TERRANCE - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
APRIL 12, 2011
VOLUME 14
PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION: PAGE LINE

118 PHOTO OF PARK SIGNS ...................... 1701 3
119 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ........................ 1702 2
122 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL ................ 1704 5
123 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TELEPHONE POLE ...... 1704 11
124 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ............... 1704 23
125 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL ................ 1705 16
126 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ............... 1705 25
128 CLOSE-UP PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON FENCE ...... 1706 14
129 CLOSE-UP OF EXHIBIT 128 .................. 1706 21
130 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON PINK FENCE .......... 1707 7
131 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON GRAY FENCE .......... 1707 18
132 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TREE ................ 1707 26
135 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON LIGHT POLE .......... 1709 1
136 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON CONCRETE BASE ....... 1709 12
137 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON FENCE ............... 1709 22
138 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH ............... 1710 2
139 CLOSE-UP OF EXHIBIT 138 ~1710 24

PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS (CONTINUED): PAGE LINE
140 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH o ....... 1711 5
141 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH ........ ooo .... 1711 12
144 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH ....... o....... 1712 24
147 PHOTO OF GROUND AROUND BENCH 1111 111101.1714 5
148 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON BENCH 1011101101010011714 18
216 COURT COMPLAINT FILED 2-4-08 ...... 11111111683 7
217 COURT COMPLAINT FILED 12-28-07 .... lOll ~~~1686 1
218 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI o... o..... o............ o1692 26
219 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON TREE ... 01 0111 ~~ 0111693 14
220 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ~~~~~~~~~1693 26
221 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL~~~~ 111111.1694 14
222 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI I 0. 0. I I I I I I 0.. I I I I I I 11694 24
223 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI . oo... o.... oo. ooo....... 1696 5
224 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ~~110001111~~~~1696 12
225 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL 1111~~~~~1697 1
226 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON WALL ooooooooooo1697 17
227 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ON PIPE 00010 o Oil ~1697 26
228 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI 11111011110001011 ~~~~1698 14
229 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI ~1000101~ ... 1699 13
230 PHOTO OF GRAFFITI oooo~o ~~1700 3
233 PHOTO OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE .... oo1721 1

234 PHOTO OF THREE PEOPLE .................... 1721 19
235 PHOTO OF THREE PEOPLE .................... 1722 16
236 PHOTO OF TAGGING ......................... 1723 26
26 5 AERIAL MAP I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I 1661 22
1577
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, APRIL 12, 2011

2 9:00 A.M.
3
4 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING ONE AND ALL. DEPUTY TRAPP,
5 MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS.
8 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND GOOD
9 MORNING. ALL THE JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND
10 COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
11 IT SEEMS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THAT AT LEAST
12 ONCE DURING A LONG TRIAL THE COURT OUGHT TO, AFTER MAKING
13 JURORS WAIT FOR US SO MANY DAYS, KIND OF SORT OF START
r 14 ALMOST ON TIME TO SEE IF WE CAN CATCH ANY OF YOU THAT
15 MIGHT BE A FEW MINUTES LATE, AND I SAY THIS FOR THE
16 BENEFIT OF OUR ALTERNATE JUROR.
17 YOU FOLKS HAVE BEEN SO DILIGENT, SO, PLEASE, NO
18 WORRIES AT ALL. WE APPRECIATE ON BOTH SIDES, AND FROM THE
19 COURT'S VIEW, YOUR DILIGENCE, YOUR PATIENCE, YOUR GOOD
20 HUMOR AND THE EVIDENT ATTENTION THAT YOU'RE ALL GIVING
21 THIS CASE, AND I THANK EACH ONE OF YOU FOR THAT.
22 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: THANK YOU, SIR.
23 THE COURT: IT'S ALL GOOD. YOU NEED A MOMENT TO
24 CATCH YOUR BREATH, MADAM?
25 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: NO.
26 THE COURT: OKAY. THAT'S GOOD.
27 I'LL TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE YOU A LITTLE
28 BIT OF A BATTING ORDER HERE. WE'RE GOING TO INTERRUPT
'
1578
1 DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY RIGHT NOW -- SO LET'S JUST

2 DRAW A DOUBLE LINE IN OUR BOOKS -- AND HEAR FROM ANOTHER
3 PROSECUTION WITNESS. THAT WITNESS, I CONTEMPLATE, WILL --
4 PERMIT ME TO BEGIN THAT AGAIN. MY ENGLISH TEACHER WOULD
5 NOT HAVE LIKED THAT.
6 THE TESTIMONY FROM THAT WITNESS WE CONTEMPLATE
7 WILL BE SHORT. THE WITNESS ISN'T SHORT, NECESSARILY, BUT
8 THE TESTIMONY WE THINK WILL NOT TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF TIME.
9 WE'RE THEN GOING TO POSSIBLY TAKE A DEFENSE WITNESS OUT OF
10 ORDER, DEPENDING ON THE AVAILABILITY OF THAT WITNESS.
11 ONCE THOSE THINGS HAVE OCCURRED, WE'LL GET BACK TO THE
12 TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE GASCA.
13 IF THE DEFENSE WITNESS IS NOT AVAILABLE AFTER
14 THE PROSECUTION'S INTERIM WITNESS, THEN WE'LL GET BACK TO
15 DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY AND WORK THAT DEFENSE
16 TESTIMONY IN LATER AS THE DAY PROGRESSES.
17 IT AT LEAST SEEMS TO BE WITHIN THE REALM OF
18 POSSIBILITY THAT THE PEOPLE MAY CONCLUDE THEIR CASE TODAY.
19 IF SO, WE'LL HAVE SOME -- OH, I DON'T WANT TO SAY
20 "WRANGLING," I WILL SAY SOME DISCUSSION OVER THE EXHIBITS
21 AND WHATNOT, WHICH WE WILL DO OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE. WE
22 MAY, IN OTHER WORDS, BE BREAKING A LITTLE BIT EARLY TODAY
23 AND BEGINNING THE BULK OF THE DEFENSE CASE TOMORROW.
24 AS IS SO OFTEN TRUE IN TRIAL WORK, I HESITATE TO
25 SAY THESE THINGS BECAUSE THE EXIGENCIES AND EMERGENCIES
26 THAT CAN CROP UP MAY MEAN THAT I'VE JUST GIVEN YOU FALSE
27 HOPE OR FALSE FRUSTRATION, WHICHEVER IT MAY BE, BUT LET'S
28 JUST SEE HOW IT GOES.
1579
1 IN ANY EVENT, I DO EXPECT THE PROSECUTION CASE

'
2 TO CONCLUDE AT SOME POINT TODAY AND THEN WE 1 LL GET ON WITH
3 THE DEFENSE CASE EITHER TODAY OR TOMORROW.
4 ONCE AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED
5 ATTENTION, AND WE WILL CALL THE PEOPLE 1 S WITNESS OUT OF
6 ORDER.
7 MR. TROCHA?
8 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. WE CALL TERRANCE OH.
10
11 OFFICER TERRANCE OH.
14
17 WITNESS STAND.
19 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
22 THE WITNESS: YES. TERRANCE OH. THE SPELLING IS
23 0-H.
26 MR. TROCHA?
28 \\
1580
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, OFFICER OH.
4 A. GOOD MORNING.
5 Q. YOU'RE A POLICE OFFICER WITH THE SAN DIEGO
6 POLICE DEPARTMENT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. TODAY YOU'RE WEARING A SUIT AS OPPOSED TO YOUR
9 UNIFORM.
10 A. YES.
12 SAN DIEGO?
13 A. FOR APPROXIMATELY NINE YEARS.
15 A. I'M ASSIGNED TO THE SAN DIEGO POLICE GANG
16 SUPPRESSION TEAM.
17 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH THAT ASSIGNMENT?
18 A. FOR APPROXIMATELY THREE YEARS.
19 Q. GOING BACK TO FEBRUARY 18th OF 2010, WERE YOU
20 ON DUTY THAT DAY?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO PULL OVER A VEHICLE IN
23 THE NATIONAL CITY AREA?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR STOPPING THIS CAR?
26 A. PLAINCLOTHES DETECTIVES ADVISED THAT THEY
27 LOCATED A WANTED SUBJECT THAT HAD A FELONY WARRANT OR A
28 NO-BAIL WARRANT.
1581
1 Q. DO YOU SEE THE DRIVER OF THAT CAR HERE IN COURT

2 TODAY?
3 A. YES, I DO.
4 Q. COULD YOU PLEASE TELL US WHERE HE'S SITTING AND
5 WHAT HE'S WEARING.
6 A. HE'S SITTING TO MY LEFT, WEARING A DARK-COLORED
7 SUIT.
8 Q. WITH OR WITHOUT GLASSES?
'
9 A. WITHOUT GLASSES. SORRY.
10 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, MAY THE RECORD REFLECT THE
11 WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT?
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. WAS HE THE SOLE OCCUPANT OF THAT CAR?
15 A. YES -- NO. NO, HE WAS NOT.
16 Q. HOW MANY PASSENGERS DID HE HAVE?
17 A. HE HAD ONE.
18 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE NAME OF THAT PASSENGER?
19 A. YES, CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
20 Q. AT THE TIME, DID YOU, PLACE MR. DOMINGUEZ UNDER
21 ARREST?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WAS HE THEN TRANSPORTED TO THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
24 HEADQUARTERS?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. DOES THAT CONCLUDE ESSENTIALLY YOUR INVOLVEMENT
27 IN THE ARREST IN THE CASE?
28 A. YES, IT DOES.
1582

3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO YOU WISH TO CROSS?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
5 THE COURT: OFFICER OH, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU MAY STEP
6 DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
8 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S ALL JUST SIT
9 WHERE WE ARE FOR ONE MOMENT. I'M GOING TO GIVE
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI A CHANCE TO SPEAK WITH HIS INVESTIGATOR
11 OR OTHERWISE CHECK ON THE STATUS OF HIS WITNESS.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU'RE FREE TO STEP OUT OF THE
13 COURTROOM TO DO THAT.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I DID
15 CATCH A GLIMPSE OF HER. SHE'S HERE.
16 THE COURT: EXCELLENT. WOULD IT BE YOUR DESIRE TO
17 CALL HER THEN?
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT WOULD BE.
19 THE COURT: OKAY. LET'S DRAW A TRIPLE LINE IN OUR
20 BOOKS AND SHIFT OVER TO THE DEFENSE CASE FOR JUST A FEW
21 MINUTES, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, HOWEVER LONG OR SHORT THIS
22 MIGHT BE.
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT
24 WITNESS.
26 DEFENSE CALLS CAROL MARTINEZ.
28 \\
1583
1 CAROL MARTINEZ,
2 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENSE, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY
4
7 WITNESS STAND.
8 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU WOULD,
9 PLEASE. GOOD MORNING.
11 THE CLERK: CAN YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND SPELL
13 THE WITNESS: CAROL MARTINEZ, M-A-R-T-I-N-E-Z.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YO~ MAY EXAMINE.
17
20 Q. GOOD MORNING, MS. MARTINEZ.
21 A. GOOD MORNING.
22 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED RONALD
23 MARTINEZ?
24 A. HE'S MY BROTHER.
25 Q. HOW OLD IS HE?
26 A. 21.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED MOISES LOPEZ?
28 A. YES, I DO.
1584
1 Q. WHO'S HE?
2 A. HE WAS MY FRIEND.
3 Q. WHEN DID HE PASS AWAY?
4 A. ON SEPTEMBER 13th, I BELIEVE.
5 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YEAR?
6 A. 2008 OR -- YEAH, 2008.
7 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW HIM?
8 A. ACTUALLY, HE WAS WALKING THROUGH MY HOUSE IN
9 FRONT, AND THAT'S WHEN I MET HIM. OTHER THAN THAT, HE
10 WENT TO SCHOOL WITH US.
11 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL?
12 A. POINT LOMA HIGH.
13 Q. AND HE WENT TO SCHOOL THERE AS WELL?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. DID YOU LIVE NEAR HIM?
16 A. KIND OF. IT WASN'T NEARBY, BUT IT WAS AROUND
17 THE NEIGHBORHOOD. HE LIVED -- I LIVED AT THE TIME ON
18 39th AND IMPERIAL AND HE LIVED -- I THINK IT'S HEMLOCK.
19 I'M NOT SURE WHICH STREET IT WAS.
20 Q. HOW OFTEN DID YOU HANG OUT WITH MOISES?
'
21 A. AT SCHOOL, BASICALLY EVERY DAY. AFTER SCHOOL
22 SOMETIMES HE WENT OVER TO MY HOUSE OR WE WOULD JUST HANG
23 OUT AT THE PARK.
24 Q. WHAT PARK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
25 A. OCEAN VIEW PARK.
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST FOR REFERENCE, I'M GOING TO
27 PUT UP AN EXHIBIT, YOUR HONOR.
1585
2 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, SHOWING YOU PROSECUTION 1, IS THAT
3 1
THE PARK YOU RE TALKING ABOUT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. THE TOP PHOTO, DOES THAT DEPICT BOTH THE NORTH
6 AND SOUTH SIDE OF OCEAN VIEW PARK?
7 A. YES, IT DOES.
8 Q. WHAT DOES THE BOTTOM PICTURE DEPICT?
9 A. 1
THE BOTTOM PICTURE -- I M NOT REALLY SURE. I
10 CAN 1 T --
11 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, WOULD THE BOTTOM PICTURE BE A
12 CLOSE-UP OF THE NORTH PART OF OCEAN VIEW PARK?
13 A. THE NORTH SIDE?
14 Q. YES. MS. MARTINEZ, REFERRING TO THE BOTTOM
15 PICTURE HERE (INDICATING)
16 A. UH-HUH.
17 Q. -- WOULD THAT BE A CLOSE-UP OF THIS PART OF THE
18 PARK (INDICATING)?
19 A. YES. I SEE IT NOW, YEAH.
20 Q. REFERRING TO THE PARK ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE
21 TOP PHOTO.
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, A COUPLE DAYS AFTER MOISES PASSED
24 AWAY, YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE! CORRECT?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE DATE THAT YOU TALKED TO
27 THEM?
28 A. NO, I DON'T.
1586
1 Q. WOULD IT -- IF I SHOWED YOU A COPY --

2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. -- OF THE REPORT -- MS. MARTINEZ, PLEASE READ
4 THIS PARAGRAPH TO YOURSELF, AND THEN LOOK AT ME WHEN
5 YOU'RE DONE.
8 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, IS YOUR RECOLLECTION REFRESHED AS
9 TO THE DATE YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT DATE WAS IT?
12 A. SEPTEMBER 16th.
13 Q. GOING BACK TO THE DAY THAT MOISES PASSED AWAY,
14 WHAT WERE YOU DOING DURING THE AFTERNOON HOURS?
15 A. THE AFTERNOON HOURS WE WERE AT OCEAN VIEW PARK
16 HAVING A BARBECUE, MAKING CARNE ASADA. WE WERE ALL
17 EATING.
18 Q. YOU SAY "WE." WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
19 A. IT WAS RAUL
20 Q. RAUL WHO?
21 A. I THINK IT'S AGUILAR.
22 Q. WHO ELSE?
23 A. JOSUE.
24 Q. JOSUE WHO?
25 A. HERNANDEZ.
26 Q. DOES HE ALSO GO BY GUTIERREZ?
27 A. OR GUTIERREZ, YES.
28 Q. HERNANDEZ IS HIS MOT~ER'S NAME?
1587
1 A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT IT IS, BUT HE GOES EITHER BY

2 HERNANDEZ OR GUTIERREZ.
3 Q. OKAY. WHO ELSE WAS THERE?
4 A. MY COUSIN, JENNIFER SANTOS, MY FRIEND, JESSICA
5 CASTIELLOS, AND HER SISTER. AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER
6 JENNIFER THAT'S MY COUSIN'S FRIEND, AND THERE WERE OTHER
7 PEOPLE WHICH I DID NOT KNOW, BUT --
8 Q. HANGING OUT AT THE CARNE ASADA?
'
9 A. YEAH.
10 Q. ON PROSECUTION 1, MS. MARTINEZ, COULD YOU PLEASE
11 STEP DOWN AND SHOW US WHERE THIS CARNE ASADA HAPPENED.
12 A. IT WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE (INDICATING)
13 BECAUSE THERE'S THE BARBECUE PIT. OH, NO. WE HAD IT
14 SO IT WAS BY THE TREES, AND THERE'S A TABLE, I THINK, BY
15 THE TREES.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS
17 POINTING TO THE TREES LOCATED AT WHAT WOULD BE THE
18 NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE SOUTH PARK.
19 THE WITNESS: YEAH, SOMEWHERE AROUND THE TREES
'
20 BECAUSE WE HAD OUR OWN BARBECUE PIT, AND THERE'S A TABLE
21 NEXT TO IT, SO -- I THINK IT'S BY THE TREE.
23 Q. JUST TO THE RIGHT OF WHERE YOU'RE POINTING, IS
24 THAT A GAZEBO?
25 A. YEAH, THAT'S THE GAZEBO.
26 Q. SO YOU WERE TO -- IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT
27 PROSECUTION 1, TO THE LEFT OF THE GAZEBO?
28 A. WE WERE TO THE LEFT OF THE GAZEBO.
1588
1 Q. THANK YOU. YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT.

4 Q. WHEN DID MOISES LOPEZ SHOW UP FOR THE CARNE
5 ASADA?
6 A. OH, THAT DAY?
7 Q. YES.
8 A. HE SHOWED UP TO MY HOUSE -- I DON'T THINK HE
9 SHOWED UP. HE JUST SHOWED UP TO THE PARK.
10 Q. HE SHOWED UP TO THE CARNE ASADA?
11 A. YEAH, HE DID.
12 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER APPRpXIMATELY THE TIME?
13 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS --
14 Q. IF I SHOWED YOU A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT TO THE
15 POLICE, WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
16 A. YEAH.
17 Q. JUST READ THE FIRST FEW LINES, MS. MARTINEZ.
20 Q. IS YOUR RECOLLECTION REFRESHED AS TO WHEN
21 MOISES LOPEZ SHOWED UP AT THE CARNE ASADA?
22 A. YEAH, AROUND 5:30 OR 6:00, LIKE AROUND THERE.
23 IT WAS GETTING LATE, SO --
'
24 Q. ABOUT 5:30 OR 6:00 O'CLOCK?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. WAS IT STILL LIGHT OUT?
27 A. IT WAS.
28 Q. AT SOME POINT DID THE CARNE ASADA END?
1589
1 A. IT DID END WHEN WE WERE LEAVING TO GO TO A

2 QUINCEANERA.
3 Q. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN IT ENDED?
4 A. IT ENDED, AND WE GOT OUR THINGS, TOOK THEM TO
5 THE HOUSE. IT WAS -- MY COUSIN, HER FRIENDS AND JOSUE
6 LEFT WITH ME TO GO LEAVE THE THINGS BACK, AND MOISES
7 STAYED. HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO WAIT FOR US AT THE PARK.
8 ONCE WE DROPPED EVERYTHING OFF, WE CAME BACK,
9 LOOKED FOR HIM. WE DIDN'T FIND HIM, SO WE LEFT TO THE
10 QUINCEANERA.
11 Q. LET'S TAKE THIS ONE STEP AT A TIME,
12 MS. MARTINEZ. WHAT HOUSE DID YOU GO TO?
13 A. IT WAS MY HOUSE. IT WAS 42- --
14 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME THE ADDRESS.
15 A. YEAH, IT WAS MY HOUSE WE WENT TO, DROPPED OFF
16 THE THINGS.
17 Q. YOUR BROTHER RONALD LIVED THERE AS WELL?
18 A. YES, HE DID.
19 Q. WHO ELSE WAS HOME AT YOUR HOUSE?
20 A. IT WAS MY BROTHER RONALD, HIS FRIEND ANTONIO.
21 IT WAS MY MOM, AND I BELIEVE MY DAD WAS THERE TOO, AND MY
22 GRANDMA.
23 Q. WAS YOUR MOM THERE?
24 A. YEAH. MY LITTLE BROTHER TOO.
25 Q. OKAY. AND FROM THE GROUP OF PEOPLE AT THE
26 BARBECUE, THE CARNE ASADA, CAN YOU LIST THE PEOPLE WHO
27 WENT WITH YOU TO YOUR HOME.
28 A. WENT WITH ME? IT WAS JOSUE --
1590
1 Q. JOSUE GUTIERREZ?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHO ELSE?
4 A. MY COUSIN, JENNIFER SANTOS, HER FRIEND,
5 JENNIFER
6 Q. SO TWO JENNIFERS?
7 A. YES, TWO JENNIFERS.
8 -- JESSICA AND HER SISTER STEPHANIE, YEAH, AND
9 ME. THAT WAS ALL.
10 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DRIVING?
11 A. I WAS DRIVING MY MOM'S VAN.
12 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU TAKE WITH YOU FROM THE PARK TO
13 YOUR HOME?
14 A. IT WAS A BARBECUE PIT AND I BELIEVE POTS WE HAD,
15 AND THAT WAS ALL.
16 Q. WHAT HAPPENED TO RAUL AGUILAR?
17 A. I DON'T KNOW. HE LEFT TOO, BUT HE DIDN'T LEAVE
18 WITH US.
19 Q. SO HE STAYED AT THE PARK?
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. AND WHY DIDN'T MOISES COME WITH YOU?
22 A. BECAUSE WE DIDN'T FIT IN THE CAR ANYMORE, SO HE
23 STAYED. HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO WAIT FOR US.
24 Q. AND THEN YOU WENT HOME?
25 A. WE WENT HOME, DROPPED THE THINGS OFF.
26 Q. WITH REGARD TO YOUR BROTHER RONALD, WHAT
27 HAPPENED WHEN YOU GOT HOME?
28 A. ONCE WE GOT HOME, LIKE, HE DRESSED UP AND I GOT
1591
1 CHANGED AND WE WENT TO GO "DROP,OFF HIS FRIEND ANTONIO.

2 AFTER THAT HE CAME TO THE QUINCEANERA WITH US.
3 Q. BEFORE YOU GOT TO THE QUINCEANERA, WHAT DID YOU
4 DO?
5 A. WE WENT AROUND TO GO LOOK FOR MOISES. WE DIDN'T
6 FIND HIM AROUND THE PARK, SO WE ENDED UP JUST LEAVING TO
7 THE QUINCEANERA.
8 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT WHAT TIME YOU ARRIVED AT
9 THE QUINCEANERA?
10 A. I THINK IT WAS AROUND 8:00. IT WAS ALREADY
11 DARK. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EXACT TIME WAS, BUT I BELIEVE
12 IT WAS AROUND THERE.
13 Q. AND WHEN YOU GOT TO THE QUINCEANERA, WHO WAS
14 WITH YOU?
15 A. IT WAS JOSUE GUTIERREZ, MY BROTHER RONALD,
16 JESSICA CASTIELLOS, JENNIFER SANTOS AND HER OTHER FRIEND
17 JENNIFER.
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO ALEXIS LOPEZ IS?
19 A. I DO.
20 Q. WITH REGARD TO HIM, WHAT -- DID YOU SEE HIM AT
21 THE QUINCEANERA?
22 A. YEAH, HE WAS THERE TOO.
23 Q. WAS HE THERE WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
24 A. YEAH, HE WAS.
25 Q. SO AT SOME POINT SOMETHING HAPPENS AT THE
26 QUINCEANERA, RIGHT?
27 A. I'M NOT SURE BECAUSE I WAS INSIDE. THERE WAS
28 LOUD MUSIC. BUT MY BROTHER RONALD WAS OUTSIDE, AND ALEXIS
1592
1 WAS OUTSIDE, AND THAT'S WHEN THEY COME IN SAYING, "OH, WE

2 HEARD SHOTS."
3 Q. WHO CAME IN AND TOLD YOU THAT THEY HEARD SHOTS?
4 A. THERE WAS PEOPLE -- LIKE DIFFERENT PEOPLE
5 SAYING, "OH, THERE'S SHOTS, THERE'S SHOTS." SO I GO
6 OUTSIDE WITH JOSUE. MY BROTHER IS STANDING THERE. WE'RE
7 JUST LOOKING AROUND, JUST SAW COPS GOING BY. THAT'S
8 PRETTY MUCH IT.
9 Q. SO WAS YOUR BROTHER RONALD AND YOU OUTSIDE WITH
10 JOSUE GUTIERREZ?
11 A. MY BROTHER WAS OUTSIDE WITH JOSUE. I WAS INSIDE
12 WITH JENNIFER, JESSICA AND HER SISTER.
13 Q. THEN AT SOME POINT SOMEBODY CAME IN TO TELL YOU
14 THEY HEARD GUNSHOTS?
15 A. YEAH, AND THAT'S WHEN WE GONE OUT AND WE WERE
16 JUST STANDING OUTSIDE.
17 Q. AND THE PERSON WHO CAME TO TELL YOU, WAS THAT
18 JOSUE OR WAS IT RONALD OR ALEXIS?
19 A. I DON'T THINK IT WAS EITHER OF THEM. IT WAS
20 JUST PEOPLE FROM THE PARTY SAYING, "WE HEARD SHOTS."
21 Q. AND THEN YOU WENT OUTSIDE?
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. AND WHO DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU WENT OUTSIDE?
24 A. I WAS WITH MY BROTHER RONALD, JOSUE, ALEXIS AND
25 JESSICA, HER SISTER AND MY COUSIN'S FRIEND. WE WERE JUST
26 STANDING OUTSIDE.
27 Q. AND, MS. MARTINEZ, CAN YOU COME DOWN TO
..
28 PROSECUTION 1 AND SHOW US WHERE THE QUINCEANERA WAS
1593
1 LOCATED IF YOU CAN FIND IT ON THERE.

2 A. YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE IT, BUT
3 Q. DID YOU JUST SAY YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE IT?
4 A. YEAH. THAT'S THE REC CENTER (INDICATING). IT'S
5 BESIDE THE REC CENTER, SO IT'S OVER HERE.
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, THE REC CENTER
7 THAT MS. MARTINEZ IS POINTING TO IS JUST AT THE TOP RIGHT
8 OF THE PICTURE, OFF THE TOP EDGE.
9 THE COURT: APPROXIMATELY WHERE THE EXHIBIT TAG IS.
11 Q. AND THE QUINCEANERA WAS ABOUT WHERE, SAY, THE
12 EXHIBIT TAG --
13 A. RIGHT BESIDE IT, SO THAT'S THE --
14 THE REPORTER: COULD YOU SPEAK UP JUST A LITTLE,
15 PLEASE.
16 THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY. THAT'S THE PARKING RIGHT
17 THERE, SO IT'S PROBABLY LIKE RIGHT BESIDE IT, NEXT TO IT,
18 RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT.
21 Q. NOW, THE QUINCEANERA WAS AT THE NEIGHBORHOOD
22 HOUSE, CORRECT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE NEIGHBORHOOD
25 HOUSE AND THE REC CENTER?
26 A. WELL, I GUESS THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE YOU CAN
27 HAVE PARTIES, THE REC CENTER I DON'T THINK YOU CAN. IT'S
28 JUST TO WORK OUT OR USE THE COMPUTER. I HAVEN'T REALLY
1594
1 BEEN IN THERE, SO I REALLY DON'' T KNOW.

2 Q. AT SOME POINT DID YOU GO TO THE REC CENTER?
3 A. I DID.
4 Q. WHY?
5 A. IT WAS BECAUSE OF MY BROTHER AND JOSUE, THEY
6 WANTED TO GO IN AND TALK TO CARLOS, SEE IF THEY WERE IN
7 FOOTAGE TO SEE THAT -- TO PROVE THAT THEY WERE THERE AT
8 THE TIME, AT THE QUINCEANERA.
9 Q. SO WHO WENT TO SEE CARLOS?
10 A. IT WAS ALEXIS, RONALD, JOSUE AND ME THAT WENT.
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW CARLOS' LAST NAME?
12 A. I DON'T.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE?
14 A. HE'S HISPANIC, TALL.
15 Q. WHAT'S HIS BUILD?
16 A. HE'S PRETTY BIG.
17 Q. HE'S HEAVY?
18 A. HEAVY.
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
21 CROSS?
22
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. DID YOU JUST SAY THAT JOSUE WANTED TO GO TO THE
26 REC CENTER TO LOOK AT A VIDEO TO PROVE THAT THEY WERE
27 THERE?
28 A. YES, I DID.
1595
1 Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT CAME ACROSS HIS

2 MIND?
3 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS OR IT WASN'T.
6 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS OR IT WASN'T,
7 BUT THE DETECTIVES WERE TRYING TO SAY -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT
8 THEY TALKED TO HIM ABOUT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE
9 SAYING.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. WELL, AT THIS POINT THERE ARE NO DETECTIVES,
12 CORRECT?
13 A. CORRECT, AT THE TIME.
14 Q. AND YET THAT NIGHT, WITHIN MINUTES AFTER THE
15 SHOOTING, HE WANTS TO GO LOOK AT A VIDEO TO PROVE HE'S AT
16 THE REC CENTER?
17 A. IT WASN'T DURING THAT. IT WAS AFTER.
18 Q. THAT'S WHAT WE JUST HEARD YOU TESTIFY TO TWO
19 MINUTES AGO, MS. MARTINEZ, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT, BUT --
21 Q. AND ACTUALLY THERE IS NO VIDEO, IS THERE?
22 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T LOOK AT IT. I WAS
23 THERE, BUT I WASN'T LOOKING AT THE VIDEO.
24 Q. WELL, IF YOU WERE THERE IN THE REC CENTER,
25 CARLOS WOULD HAVE SEEN YOU, CORRECT?
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. AND YOU'RE THE ONLY GIRL, SO YOU WOULD HAVE
28 STOOD OUT?
1596
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. AND JOSUE SOUNDS LIKE HE KNOWS CARLOS PRETTY
3 GOOD.
4 A. I DON'T KNOW.
5 Q. DO YOU? HE'S ONE OF YOUR FRIENDS.
6 A. HE IS ONE OF MY FRIENDS. I DON'T KNOW.
7 Q. SO CARLOS WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED HIM AS WELL?
8 A. I BELIEVE SO.
9 Q. AND SINCE THERE'S ONLY FOUR OF YOU WITH CARLOS,
10 HOW DID YOU MISS WATCHING THE VIDEO?
11 A. I WASN'T WATCHING THE VIDEO.
12 Q. WHAT WERE YOU WATCHING?
13 A. I WAS JUST STANDING RIGHT THERE. THEY WENT
14 INSIDE TO GO LOOK AT IT.
15 Q. NOT WATCHING THE VIDEO?
16 A. I WASN'T WATCHING THE VIDEO. THEY WERE WATCHING
17 THE VIDEO.
18 Q. AND THIS WAS FOR THE SOLE REASON TO PROVE THAT
19 THEY WERE THERE?
20 A. IT WASN'T AT THE SAM~ TIME, THOUGH. HE NEVER
21 ASKED ME WHAT DAY DID HE GO LOOK AT THE VIDEO.
22 Q. IS THIS DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH
23 JOSUE GUTIERREZ IN THE THREE DAYS AFTER MOISES WAS
24 MURDERED?
25 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT WE HAD -- WE TALKED ABOUT
26 BUT, YEAH, WE WENT TO THE REC CENTER TO SEE IF RONALD OR
27 HIM APPEARED.
28 Q. THIS IS A DIFFERENT TIME YOU WENT TO THE REC
1597
1 CENTER?
2 A. YEAH, THIS IS A DIFFERENT TIME. WE ONLY WENT
3 THERE ONCE.
4 Q. SO YOU DIDN'T GO TO THE REC CENTER THE NIGHT OF
5 THE SHOOTING?
6 A. NOT TO THE -- NO. THEY WERE AROUND THERE.
7 Q. BUT YOU DIDN'T GO TO THE REC CENTER?
8 A. I DIDN'T GO TO THE -- NO.
9 Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU JUST TOLD US YOU WERE WITH RON,
10 ALEXIS AND JOSUE?
11 A. I DID SAY THAT, BUT HE DIDN'T ASK ME WHAT DAY IT
12 WAS. HE NEVER SAID, "WHAT DAY DID YOU GUYS GO TO THE REC
13 CENTER? WAS IT THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING?" HE ASKED ME
14 WAS THE QUINCEANERA -- "WHERE IS THE QUINCEANERA?" I
15 SAID, "IT'S RIGHT NEAR THE REC CENTER."
16 Q. I APOLOGIZE, MS. MARTINEZ. I THOUGHT IT WAS THE
17 SAME NIGHT. YOU DID NOT GO TO THE REC CENTER THE NIGHT OF
18 THE SHOOTING?
19 A. NO. IT WAS WHERE THE PARTY WAS.
20 Q. YOU WERE ALWAYS AT THE PARTY THEN WITH ALEXIS,
21 JOSUE AND RONALD?
22 A. ALWAYS, NO. THEY WERE OUTSIDE. I WAS INSIDE
23 WITH MY COUSIN, HER FRIEND, MY FRIEND AND HER SISTER.
24 Q. AND THEN THE SHOTS WERE -- YOU HEARD THAT SHOTS
25 WENT OFF?
26 A. I DIDN'T HEAR THEM.
27 Q. SOMEBODY TOLD YOU SHOTS WENT OFF?
28 A. YEAH.
1598
1 Q. DID RONALD COME INSIDE AND TELL YOU THIS?

2 A. NO, HE STAYED OUTSIDE. I DON'T KNOW WHO --
3 THERE WERE PEOPLE, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THAT CAME IN SAYING
4 THEY HEARD SHOTS, SO THAT'S WHEN WE DECIDED TO GO OUTSIDE,
5 AND WE WERE JUST STANDING WITH,MY BROTHER AND JOSUE.
6 Q. MAYBE I MISHEARD YOU BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID
7 EARLIER THAT RON SAID HE HEARD SHOTS AND THEN CAME INSIDE
8 THE QUINCEANERA. DID THAT HAPPEN?
9 A. NO, HE DIDN'T COME INSIDE.
10 Q. DID YOU GO OUTSIDE?
11 A. I WENT OUTSIDE.
12 Q. WHEN YOU WENT OUTSIDE, THAT'S WHEN YOU SAW
13 RONALD?
14 A. YES. THAT'S WHEN HE SAID, 11
I HEARD SHOTS."
15 Q. AND ALEXIS?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. AND JOSUE?
18 A. AND JOSUE.
19 Q. AND YOU DIDN'T GO RUN DOWN TO THE REC CENTER AT
20 THAT TIME?
21 A. I DIDN'T.
22 Q. YOU GUYS WENT TO THE REC CENTER WHEN?
23 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS A COUPLE DAYS AFTER.
24 Q. THIS WAS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF JOSUE WANTED TO
25 PROVE HE WAS AT THE REC CENTER?
26 A. IT WASN'T JUST JOSUE.
27 Q. WHO ELSE?
28 A. RONALD AND ALEXIS.
1599
1 Q. THEY WENT THERE TO PROVE THEY WERE AT THE REC

2 CENTER?
3 A. NOT AT THE REC CENTER. TO SEE IF THE VIDEO
4 COULD TAKE FOOTAGE FROM THE WHOLE HOUSE, WHICH I DON'T
5 KNOW IF IT DID OR DIDN'T.
6 Q. WELL, IN THESE DAYS BEFORE YOU TALKED TO THE
7 POLICE ON THE 16th, YOU DID TALK TO JOSUE, CORRECT?
8 A. THE DAY OF?
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MOTION FOR SIDEBAR.
10 THE COURT: WE'LL PUT THE SIDEBAR RULE IN EFFECT,
11 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
12 MA'AM, JUST PLEASE SIT RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE.
13 WE'LL JUST BE OFF THE RECORD FOR JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES.
14 ONE MOMENT, PLEASE.
16 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S GO BACK ON
17 THE RECORD. I'M GOING TO CALL A RECESS RIGHT NOW. WE
18 NEED TO ADDRESS SOMETHING ON THE RECORD THAT ISN'T
19 SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO BURDEN YOU ALL WITH.
20 EVERYTHING'S STILL GOOD. I APPRECIATE YOUR CONTINUED
21 CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THE CASE. WE'RE ON TRACK.
22 PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT'S YOUR DUTY NOT TO
23 CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY PERSON CONNECTED
24 WITH THIS TRIAL. PLEASE DON'T FORM OR EXPRESS ANY OPINION
25 ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION.
26 LET'S SAY 10 MINUTES BEFORE THE HOUR OR AS SOON
27 THEREAFTER AS WE CAN GET UNDERWAY. ENJOY YOURSELVES. GET
28 SOME AIR FROM THE HALLWAY, AND WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH
1600
~
~ 1 YOU.
5 THE COURT: THE JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM.
6 MS. MARTINEZ, I'D LIKE YOU TO WAIT OUT IN THE
7 HALLWAY. PLEASE DON'T, OF COURSE, INTERMINGLE WITH ANY OF
8 THE JURORS AND DON'T TALK TO ANY OTHER PERSON ABOUT THE
9 FACTS OF THIS CASE OR THE TESTIMONY UNTIL WE GET BACK TO
10 YOU, OKAY?
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANKS VERY MUCH. IT WILL BE
13 JUST A FEW MINUTES.
15 THE COURT: MS. MARTINEZ HAS LEFT THE COURTROOM.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI LODGED AN OBJECTION AT SIDEBAR.
17 I THOUGHT THIS WAS ONE THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO ALLOW
18 ARGUMENT ON THE RECORD.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE PROSECUTION IS TRYING TO GET
21 INTO COMMENTS THAT CAROL MARTINEZ TOLD THE DETECTIVES;
22 NAMELY, THAT SHE HEARD ABOUT JOSUE GUTIERREZ SAYING
23 SOMETHING -- HEARING RUMORS THAT SOMEBODY NAMED SPEEDY WAS
24 THE SHOOTER. THESE RUMORS ARE HIGHLY PREJUDICIAL.
25 SHE ALSO GOES ON TO SAY THAT THE PERSON SHE'S
26 TALKING ABOUT WHO'S SPEEDY IS 15 TO 17 YEARS OLD TO HER
27 KNOWLEDGE, AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S RELEVANT FOR HER
28 TESTIMONY. ESSENTIALLY, THE -- IT'S DOUBLE HEARSAY.
1601
1 SHE'S HERE TO TESTIFY THAT JOSUE GUTIERREZ WAS WITH HER

2 ESSENTIALLY WITH HER AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING, AND
3 THAT'S IT.
4 IF MR. TROCHA WANTS TO GET INTO HIS STATEMENTS,
5 HE'S GOING TO BE CALLED BACK AND HE CAN ASK MR. GUTIERREZ
6 IF HE SAID THOSE THINGS TO HER.
7 THE COURT: WELL, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, HELP PUT THIS IN
8 CONTEXT FOR ME. YOU ALL HAVE THE DISCOVERY, I DON'T. THE
9 LAST I HEARD FROM THIS WITNESS WAS SOME TESTIMONY THAT
10 SEEMS TO ME IT'S REASONABLE TO ALLOW THE PROSECUTION TO
11 PURSUE. THAT TESTIMONY HAS TO DO WITH HER STATEMENT
12 INITIALLY THAT "WE WENT TO THE REC CENTER BECAUSE MY
13 BROTHER, JOSUE -- THEY WANTED TO GO IN AND TALK TO CARLOS
14 TO PROVE THAT THEY WERE THERE."
15 WHEN I FIRST HEARD THAT TESTIMONY, I BELIEVED
16 SHE WAS REFERRING TO AT THE TIME THAT THE SHOTS WERE
17 FIRED. THAT WAS THE READING THAT I HAD OF IT. AS I LOOK
18 BACK AT THE TRANSCRIPT, YOUR QUESTION WAS NOT QUITE THAT
19 SPECIFIC. IT MAY BE A QUESTION OF CONTEXT.
20 ONE MOMENT.
22 THE COURT: TO REFRESH COUNSEL'S RECOLLECTION, THE
23 TESTIMONY WAS SUBSTANTIALLY AS FOLLOWS: "NOW, THE
24 QUINCEANERA WAS AT THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE, CORRECT?"
25 "YES."
26 "THAT'S -- WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
27 NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE AND THE REC..CENTER?"
28 "ANSWER: WELL, I GUESS THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE,
1602
1 YOU CAN HAVE PARTIES, THE REC CENTER I DON'T THINK YOU
2 CAN. IT'S JUST TO WORK OUT OR USE THE COMPUTER. I
3 HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN IN THERE, SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW."
4 AND THEN THE QUESTION, "AT SOME POINT DID YOU GO
5 TO THE REC CENTER?"
11
6 ANSWER: I DID. 11
7 "QUESTION: WHY?"
8 "IT WAS BECAUSE OF MY BROTHER, JOSUE -- THEY
9 WANTED TO GO IN AND TALK TO CARLOS, SEE IF THEY WERE IN
10 FOOTAGE TO SEE THAT -- TO PROVE THAT THEY WERE THERE AT
11 THE TIME, AT THE QUINCEANERA."
12 11
SO WHO WENT IN TO SEE CARLOS?"
13 "IT WAS ALEXIS, RONALD, JOSUE AND ME THAT WENT."
14 NOW, WE'VE HAD THE CROSS THAT WE'VE HAD. NOW
15 YOU'RE CONCERNED THAT MR. TROCHA'S ABOUT TO GET INTO
16 SOMETHING THAT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT. PUT IT IN CONTEXT WITH
17 ME.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS IS THE STATEMENTS HE'S TRYING
19 TO GET IN, READING FROM THE POLICE REPORT: "BASICALLY SHE
'
20 SAID -- THEY SAID THEY WERE OVER THERE AT THE PARK
21 DRINKING. THEY STARTED ARGUING. SOMETHING CAME UP ABOUT
22 'LITTLE CROOKS.' THEY BLAMED MOISES FOR LEAVING LITTLE
23 CROOKS TO DIE. I GUESS THAT IS WHEN SPEEDY STARTED
24 BEATING UP MOISES AND MOISES --
25 THE REPORTER: PLEASE SLOW DOWN.
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "-- AND MOISES WAS BLEEDING BAD
27 FROM HIS FACE. SPEEDY SHOT HIM WITH A GUN. THAT'S ALL
28 JOSUE SAID."
1603
1 BUT SHE'S SAYING THAT JOSUE SAID THAT'S WHAT HE

2 HEARD HAD HAPPENED. SHE'S NOT SAYING JOSUE WAS THERE.
3 SHE'S SAYING SHE HEARD THROUGH JOSUE THAT HE HEARD THAT
4 THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, SO IT'S DOUBLE HEARSAY; IT'S WHAT
5 HE HEARD.
6 AGAIN, I KNOW THERE'S BEEN SOME CONTROVERSY OVER
7 THIS ISSUE BECAUSE GLENNYS BERUMAN SAYS HE WAS THERE. THE
8 DEFENSE THEORY IS THAT JOSUE PICKED UP THESE ON THE
9 STREETS AS RUMORS AND HE WAS SPREADING THEM AROUND, AND
10 THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT SHE'S SAYING, IS THAT THESE WERE
11 RUMORS THAT HE HEARD.
12 SO WHEN THE PROSECUTJON GETS IN THESE RUMORS,
13 THAT'S HIGHLY PREJUDICIAL TO THE CASE WHEN ESSENTIALLY
14 SHE'S HERE TO TESTIFY THAT JOSUE WAS WITH HER AT THE TIME
15 OF THE SHOOTING. SO BASED ON HER TESTIMONY, HE COULD NOT
16 HAVE BEEN THERE.
17 THE COURT: DOESN'T THAT ASSUME THAT WE'RE ACCEPTING
18 HER TESTIMONY AS TRUE? IN OTHER WORDS, ISN'T HE ENTITLED
19 TO SUGGEST THAT HER TESTIMONY -- THAT JOSUE WAS WITH HER
20 IS NOT TRUE?
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT IF
22 SHE SAYS ALL THIS, THE JURY IS GOING TO BE APT TO THINK,
23 "WELL, WE DON'T CARE WHETHER JOSUE WAS THERE" AND THEY'RE
24 GOING TO BASE ALL THIS AS TRUE BASED ON RUMORS. THEY'RE
25 GOING TO SAY, "WELL, THERE'S RUMORS OUT THERE THAT SPEEDY
26 DID IT. II
27 WHETHER JOSUE WAS THERE OR NOT, THEY'RE APT TO

28 NOT CARE AND SAY, "OKAY. WELL, MAYBE HE WAS, MAYBE HE
1604
1 WASN'T, BUT HE CERTAINLY HEARD A RUMOR AND WE'RE GOING TO

2 CONVICT THE DEFENDANT BASED ON THAT."
3 THE COURT: DO YOU THINK THAT JOSUE'S STATEMENTS
4 WOULD PROVIDE A MOTIVE THAT MIGHT EXPLAIN THIS REMARKABLE
5 CONDUCT OF GOING BACK TO THE REC CENTER TO LOOK AT THE
6 VIDEO TO SEE IF THEY WERE THERE?
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, BECAUSE IF THAT IS THE MOTIVE,
8 THEN HE'S CONFIDENT THAT HE WAS THERE BECAUSE HE'S LOOKING
9 FOR A VIDEO THAT SHOWS HE'S THERE. IF HE TRULY WAS AT THE
10 PARK, WHY WOULD HE GO LOOK FOR A VIDEO? HE WOULD KNOW
11 THERE IS NO VIDEO. HE WOULD KNOW THAT THE VIDEO -- HE'S
12 LOOKING FOR QUOTE/UNQUOTE HIS ALIBI AND HE THINKS IT MIGHT
13 EXIST, SO HE GOES BACK.
14 THE COURT: OR HE'S LOOKING TO SEE IF THERE'S
15 SOMEBODY THAT COULD PASS OFF AS HE THAT YOU COULDN'T
16 RECOGNIZE OR A VIDEO WHERE THE, TIME ISN'T ON IT, RIGHT?
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S HIGHLY
18 SPECULATIVE AS TO WHAT HE'S LOOKING FOR. HIS -- WE'RE
19 GOING OFF WHAT HE'S -- I MEAN, WE'RE GOING TO LET IN
20 PREJUDICIAL HEARSAY STATEMENTS BASED ON SOME HIGHLY
21 SPECULATIVE MOTIVE FROM THIS WITNESS?
22 THE COURT: DO YOU FIND THE CONDUCT THAT SHE'S
23 TESTIFIED TO THAT THEY GO BACK THERE SOMEWHAT REMARKABLE,
24 TO TALK TO CARLOS TO TRY TO GET EVIDENCE THAT THEY WERE
25 THERE? WHY WOULD THEY TRY TO DO THAT UNLESS THEY WERE
26 AFRAID SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO SAY THEY WERE AT THE PARK?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JOSUE GUTIERREZ WAS INTERVIEWED
'
28 THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING OR TWO DAYS AFTER THE SHOOTING,
1605
1 AND WHEN HE WAS INTERVIEWED, THE POLICE WERE TELLING HIM

2 THAT HE WAS THERE. THEY WERE YELLING AT HIM AND TELLING
11
3 HIM, WE KNOW YOU WERE THERE. WE KNOW YOU WERE THERE, 11
4 AND HE SAYS -- IT'S LIKE AN HOUR, MAYBE HOUR-AND-A-HALF

5 LONG INTERVIEW, AND HE SAYS, "NO, I WASN'T THERE. I'M
6 TELLING YOU, I WAS AT THE QUINCEANERA." HE SAYS, "ASK
7 RONALD' ASK CAROL ' ASK CARLOS I "
8 THE COURT: AND THIS IS THE

.. SAME GENTLEMEN WHO WROTE
9 THAT SUPPOSED MEMORIAL POSTING THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE
10 TALKING ABOUT LATER ON THAT JUST HAPPENS TO BE A COMPLETE
11 NARRATIVE THAT WOULD EXCULPATE HIM? I MEAN, IT DOESN'T
12 SOUND LIKE THE KIND OF THING SOMEBODY WOULD WRITE IN A
13 MEMORIAL.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE SAYS, "I WISH I COULD HAVE BEEN
15 THERE FOR YOU." IT SOUNDS-- I'LL READ IT TO YOU. DO YOU
16 WANT ME TO READ IT?
17 THE COURT: I DO.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
..
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU WANT TO READ IT OR SHOULD
21 I?
24 READING FROM EXHIBIT Y: "MOISES, I STILL
25 REMEMBER THAT NIGHT LIKE IT WAS TODAY. WE WERE MUNCHING
26 ON CARNE ASADA THAT WE GOT FROM NORTHGATE , " AND THEN
11
27 THERE'S A SIGN I DON'T UNDERSTAND. WE WERE GOING TO GO
28 TO THE PARTY RIGHT AFTER BUT HAD TO GO DROP OFF OUR
1606
1 ' AT THE PARK AND WAIT FOR

THINGS, AND YOU DECIDED TO STAY
2 US. DAMN, WHEN I CAME BACK, YOU WERE GONE, AND I LOOKED
3 ALL OVER FOR YOU, BUT YOU WERE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
4 "THEN I HEARD THE GUNSHOTS. I NEVER WOULD HAVE
5 IMAGINED IT WAS YOU GETTING SHOT. DAMN, I'M REALLY GOING
6 TO MISS YOU, FOOL. I'M GOING TO MISS THOSE TIMES AFTER
7 SCHOOL CHILLING AT THE PARK WITH THE" -- TWO VERTICAL
8 PARALLEL LINES WITH TWO DOTS BETWEEN THEM -- "FRIENDS AND
9 STUFF.
10 "WELL, I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY, BUT
11 LOOK OUT FOR ME, RAUL, ISHMAEL AND ALEX FROM UP WHERE YOU
12 AT.
13 "JOSUE GUTIERREZ."
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SOME CONTEXT, YOUR HONOR: THIS IS
15 A SCHOOL MEMORIAL. THIS IS NOT A SOPHISTICATED PERSON.
16 HOW WOULD HE KNOW THAT THESE ITEMS WOULD END UP IN THE
17 HANDS OF THE COURT AT SOME POINT? THAT IS A BIG, LONG
18 SHEET OF PAPER SPREAD OUT ON A TABLE. MOISES' SCHOOLMATES
19 WERE WRITING THINGS ON IT ABOUT HIM, SAYING GOODBYE,
20 THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
21 THE COURT: THE REFERENCE IS TO A PHOTOGRAPH MARKED
22 DEFENSE EXHIBIT TT.
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. GUTIERREZ -- WHAT YOU JUST
24 READ IS ONE OF THE COMMENTS WRITTEN ON THAT.
25 THE COURT: WHEN WAS THIS DONE?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE. IT'S
27 SOMETHING THAT I NEED TO ASK HIM WHEN HE COMES BACK AS TO
28 WHEN IT WAS DONE.
1607
1 THE THEORY, I GUESS, THAT YOU'RE BEING SO

2 INCREDULOUS ABOUT -- FORGIVE ME FOR SAYING THAT -- AND
3 WHAT MR. TROCHA IS TRYING TO SHOW IS THAT THIS
4 SOPHISTICATED YOUNG MAN FROM DAY ONE BUILT THIS ALIBI THAT
5 HE WASN'T THERE.
6 I MEAN, WHY -- YOU KNOW, HE'S ONLY LIKE 15, 16
7 YEARS OLD. HE'S THAT SMART WHERE HE KNOWS THAT HE MIGHT
8 END UP BEING A WITNESS AND HE COMES UP WITH -- HE GETS ALL
9 THE VICTIM'S BEST FRIENDS INVOLVED? ALEXIS LOPEZ, THE
10 VICTIM'S BEST FRIEND, RAUL AGUILAR, ANOTHER FRIEND, CAROL
11 MARTINEZ AND RONALD MARTINEZ, ANOTHER FRIEND. ANNA
12 MARTINEZ, THEIR MOM.
13 THE COURT: WELL, DIDN'T YOU JUST TELL ME THAT THE
14 POLICE HAD ALREADY BEEN LEANING ON HIM, SO HE KNEW HE WAS
15 GOING TO BE A WITNESS?
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE POLICE HAD BEEN LEANING ON
17 HIM, BUT ALL OF THEIR STORIES ARE IN LINE. ALL OF THEIR
18 STORIES, HER STORY, ALEXIS. WHY WOULD THEY PROTECT JOSUE?
19 IT'S JUST -- HE WASN'T THERE. HE WAS AT THE QUINCEANERA.
20 MS. BERUMAN'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. I'M SORRY,
21 YOUR HONOR, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS, AND THESE ITEMS
22 PROVE IT.
23 NOW WHAT THE PROSECUTOR WANTS TO DO IS USE
24 MS. BERUMAN'S TESTIMONY. SHE'S THE ONLY ONE SAYING THAT
25 HE WAS THERE, THE ONLY ONE. WELL, AND ANDRES LOPEZ, BUT I
26 DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THAT RIGHT NOW.
27 SHE'S THE ONLY ONE SAYING HE WAS THERE. THE
28 OTHER INDEPENDENT WITNESSES HAVE ALL SAID HE WASN'T THERE.
1608
1 THE COURT: WELL, YOU'RE NOT SUGGESTING I SHOULD

2 JUDGE THE CREDIBILITY OF THE EVIDENCE IN ORDER TO
3 DETERMINE THE RELEVANCY OF THIS EVIDENCE, ARE YOU?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO. WHAT I'M SUGGESTING, YOUR
5 HONOR, IS THAT YOU DON'T LET IN PREJUDICIAL EVIDENCE
6 BECAUSE ONE WITNESS SAYS THE GUY WAS THERE WHEN THE REST
7 OF THEM SAY HE WASN'T.
8 NOW, THESE THINGS TH~T JOSUE MAY HAVE TOLD CAROL
9 ARE BASED ON RUMORS AND SO THEY'RE NOT ADMISSIBLE. SO
10 OTHER THAN THAT -- AND NOW BASICALLY IF THEY COME IN, THE
11 JURY'S GOING TO SIT THERE AND THINK, "OKAY. MAYBE JOSUE
12 WAS THERE. HE PROBABLY WASN'T THERE, BUT NOW WE'RE GOING
13 TO" -- "WE DON'T CARE WHETHER HE WAS THERE OR NOT, WE'RE
14 GOING TO CONVICT BASED ON THESE RUMORS THAT JOSUE HAS BEEN
15 REPORTING."
17 PEOPLE'S THEORY?
18 MR. TROCHA: THE DEFENSE LIKES TO CHARACTERIZE THESE
19 AS RUMORS. THE STATEMENT MS. ~ARTINEZ GIVES IS, "I HEARD
20 FROM PEOPLE THAT IT WAS SPEEDY WHO SHOT SMOKY." WHEN THE
21 POLICE ASKED HER, "WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?" SHE MENTIONED
22 ONE NAME: JOSUE. "JOSUE SAID HE HEARD IT WAS SPEEDY WHO
23 WAS BEATING UP MOISES AND THAT SPEEDY SHOT MOISES."
24 THEY ASKED WHY MOISES WAS BEATEN AND SHOT.
25 CAROL SAID, "THAT'S THE THING, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND.
,...
\
26 THEY'RE FROM THE SAME GANG."
27 "I ASKED MARTINEZ WHAT JOSUE TELL ME IF JOSUE
28 TALKED TO ME."
1609
1 THE COURT: SLOWLY.

2 MR I TROCHA: "MARTINEZ RESPONDED' I I DON IT KNOW I I I
3 TOLD MARTINEZ I THINK JOSUE WOULD STEP UP TO THE PLATE AS
4 WELL. MARTINEZ RESPONDED, 'HOPEFULLY HE DOES.'"
5 "I ASKED MARTINEZ TO GO OVER HER STATEMENT AGAIN
6 AND NOT TO LEAVE ANYTHING OUT. MARTINEZ RESPONDED, 'FROM
7 WHAT I HEARD, I GUESS THEY'" -- PARENTHESES --
8 '38th STREET, WERE ALL OVER THERE. THE PARK IS RIGHT
9 HERE AND THEN THERE'S A LITTLE SPACE OVER THERE.'"
10 "I ASKED MARTINEZ WHO THEY WERE. MARTINEZ
11 RESPONDED, 'ALL I KNOW IS SPEEDY, CHUBS AND STONEY WERE
12 THERE BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE WITH MOISES. THE OTHER
13 PEOPLE I DIDN'T KNOW. AFTER I PICKED UP EVERYTHING AT THE
14 PARK, I SAW SPEEDY, CHUBS AND STONEY WITH MOISES. THEY
15 WERE THE LAST PEOPLE I SAW WITH MOISES. rr
16 THE COURT: SHE'S SAYING THIS TO THE POLICE?
17 MR. TROCHA: YES.
18 THE COURT: "I SAW THEM TOGETHER"?
19 MR. TROCHA: YES. AND THEN SHE FOLLOWS THAT UP WITH,
20 rrTHEY SAID THEY WERE OVER THERE" --"PARK," IN
21 PARENTHESES -- "DRINKING. THEY STARTED ARGUING AND
22 SOMETHING CAME UP ABOUT LITTLE CROOKS. THEY BLAMED MOISES
23 FOR LEAVING LITTLE CROOKS TO D~E. I GUESS THAT IS WHEN
24 SPEEDY STARTED BEATING UP MOISES AND MOISES WAS BLEEDING
25 BAD FROM HIS FACE. SPEEDY SHOT HIM WITH A GUN. THAT'S
26 ALL JOSUE SAID."
27 WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A STATEMENT SOLELY BY
28 JOSUE. JOSUE ISN'T ATTRIBUTING THIS TO RUMORS ON THE
1610
1 STREET. IT'S SUPPOSEDLY WHAT HE CLAIMS HE HEARD.

2 THESE ARE FACTS THREE DAYS AFTER A MURDER THAT
3 IF SOMEBODY WASN'T THERE, THEY WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT
4 MOISES WAS BLEEDING FROM THE F~CE AFTER BEING BEATEN, NOR
5 WOULD THEY KNOW THREE OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
6 IDENTIFIED AS BEING IN THE PARK.
7 JOSUE CAN SAY ALL HE WANTS THAT HE WAS AT THE
8 QUINCEANERA AND THESE ARE THINGS HE HEARD. THE FACT OF
9 THE MATTER IS, HE'S RELATING SPECIFIC FACTS THAT HAVE BEEN
10 PROVEN BY INDEPENDENT EVIDENCE AS OCCURRING IN THE PARK BY
11 A SPECIFIC PERSON IN A SPECIFIC ORDER FOR A SPECIFIC
12 REASON.
13 THE DEFENSE CAN CLAIM THEY'RE RUMORS ALL THEY
14 WANT. AT ITS VERY CORE, JOSUE, FROM DAY ONE, HAS BEEN
15 TRYING TO PUT HIMSELF AS FAR AWAY FROM OCEAN VIEW PARK AS
16 HE POSSIBLY CAN.
17 AS THE COURT HAS SEEN AND I'VE SEEN THIS
18 MORNING, THE REASON TO GO TO THE REC CENTER DAYS LATER IS
19 TO TRY TO PROVE HE'S THERE, AND THEN WE HAVE THIS STRANGE
20 MEMORIAL LETTER WHERE ALL HE DOES IS BASICALLY RECOUNT HIS
21 TESTIMONY WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, THE TYPICAL, "I'M SORRY
22 YOU'RE DEAD," YOU KNOW, "I MISS YOU A LOT. I REMEMBER THE
23 TIMES WE USED TO HANG OUT. II NO I
24 IT'S, "I REMEMBER BEING AT A QUINCEANERA, AND WE

25 WERE AT A PARK, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHERE I WAS IF
26 ANYONE CARES TO NOTICE."
27 THIS STATEMENT WAS MADE WITHIN THREE DAYS OF THE
28 MURDER TO CAROL MARTINEZ. IT IS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH
1611
1 JOSUE GUTIERREZ' ACTUAL TESTIMONY IN COURT OF NOT KNOWING

2 ANYTHING, NOT KNOWING PEOPLE AND HAVING NO INFORMATION
3 ABOUT THE MURDER. IT MORE MIRRORS WHAT GLENNYS BERUMAN
4 HAS TOLD US BUT FOR THE FACT HE'S TELLING CAROL THIS IS
5 WHAT HE HEARD.
6 AND WHAT I HEARD THIS MORNING AND WHAT IS ON THE
7 TRANSCRIPT IS CAROL MARTINEZ IS INSIDE A QUINCEANERA, AND
8 THE ONLY TIME SHE SEES JOSUE IS AFTER GUNSHOTS WHERE SHE
9 COMES OUT AND SEES HIM WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT A
10 QUINCEANERA THE WHOLE TIME AND THEN AT A REC CENTER AND
11 DOING ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS. I'M NOT SEEING THE PART
12 WHERE WHAT HE'S SAYING HAS BEEN CORROBORATED TO THIS
13 POINT. RAUL HAS SAID SAYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. NOW
14 CAROL IS SAYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
15 JOSUE IS SCRAMBLING TO KEEP WHAT HE THINKS
16 SHOULD BE WHAT THE POLICE SHOULD KNOW BECAUSE ALSO WE'VE
17 HEARD THAT HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHO ANGELINA CAMPOS IS,
18 WHO WE'VE HEARD EVIDENCE THAT -- OR STATEMENTS THAT SHE
19 THREATENED BERUMAN'S BROTHER AS A RESULT OF WHAT HE TOLD
20 HER IN THIS CASE.
21 THIS IS ALSO A PERSON WHO CLAIMS TO NOT KNOW
22 ANYONE FROM 38th STREET, WHO CLAIMS HIMSELF NOT BEING
23 FROM 38th STREET, WHO WHEN HE COMES BACK INTO COURT, THE
24 JURY WILL SEE HE IS FROM 38TH STREET. HE CAN'T KEEP A
25 STRAIGHT STORY.
26 THIS IS PRIMARILY THE PURPOSE TO IMPEACH HIM AND
27 TO SHOW A PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT IN TERMS OF THE
28 CONTENT OF WHAT HE TOLD BERUMAN WITHIN THREE DAYS OF THE
1612
1 MURDER, AND IF THE COURT WANTS TO, TECHNICALLY IT WOULD BE

2 IMPEACHING WHAT MS. BERUMAN SAID AS WELL. SO THERE'S A
3 MULTITUDE OF LEVELS THIS CAN COME IN ON. IT IS NOT
4 HEARSAY AS THE DEFENSE HAS CHARACTERIZED IT, BEING
5 MULTIPLE LEVELS THAT WE JUST CAN'T TRUST AS RUMORS. THIS
6 IS A SINGLE SOURCE WHO HAS NOW TOLD MULTIPLE PEOPLE AN
7 IDENTICAL SET OF FACTS ABOUT THE SAME SHOOTING.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, CAN I BE HEARD?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WHAT THE PROSECUTION WAS READING
11 TO YOU IS A POLICE REPORT. I HAVE THE TRANSCRIPT, AND SHE
12 SAYS, "JOSUE" -- THE QUESTION IS, "JOSUE TOLD YOU THAT
13 INFORMATION? YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE IT, BUT JOSUE TOLD
14 YOU?"
15 SHE SAYS, "HE DIDN'T SEE IT EITHER. SOMEONE
16 TOLD HIM, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO."
17 THE COURT: WHICH INFORMATION?
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SHE'S TALKING ABOUT THE
19 INFORMATION THAT JOSUE RELATED TO HER.
20 THE COURT: IS THERE ALSO -- IS THAT ALSO THE
21 STATEMENT WHERE SHE SAYS THAT SHE SAW THEM GOING TO THE
22 PARK?
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, SHE DIDN'T SEE THEM. IT MIGHT
24 SAY THAT IN THE POLICE REPORT. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IN THE
25 TRANSCRIPT. I'VE READ THIS THING A HUNDRED TIMES.
26 THE COURT: WELL, WHAT DOES IT SAY?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WHEN SHE TALKS ABOUT SPEEDY, SHE
28 SAY SHE'S ONLY MET HIM A COUPLE TIMES, THE PERSON THAT HE
1613
1 WAS TALKING ABOUT, AND SHE SAYS HE'S LIKE A

2 15-0R-16-YEAR-OLD KID.
3 THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT DOES SHE SAY ABOUT SEEING
4 THOSE PEOPLE GOING TO THE PARK/
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SHE DOESN'T SAY THAT.
6 MR. TROCHA: I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS TRANSCRIPT, YOUR
7 HONOR. IT'S IN THE POLICE REPORTS AND IT'S IN THE AUDIO.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS IS A TRANSCRIPT OF THE AUDIO.
9 THE COURT: THANK YOU BOTH. ONE MOMENT, PLEASE.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CAN I SAY SOMETHING, YOUR HONOR?
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IN THE TRANSCRIPT, ALSO IN THE
14 AUDIO, SHE SAYS THERE ARE PEOPLE SAYING THAT, THAT'S WHAT
15 THEY HEARD. "OKAY. WHO TOLD YOU?"
16 "IT WAS JOSUE."
17 IT SAYS THAT "HE HEARD THAT SPEEDY WAS BEATING
18 HIM UP AND THAT HE SHOT HIM." THAT'S WHAT SHE SAYS SHE
19 HEARD.
20 NOW, LET'S TAKE THIS IN CONTEXT TOO BECAUSE
21 SHE'S SAYING THAT JOSUE TOLD HER THAT HE HEARD ABOUT THESE
22 RUMORS, RIGHT? IF SHE WAS TRYING TO PROTECT JOSUE, IF
23 THAT'S WHAT THE PROSECUTION'S THEORY IS, THAT HE GOT AHOLD
24 OF HER SOMEHOW ON HER INTERVIEW THREE DAYS LATER AND SAID,
25 "YOU NEED TO PROTECT ME. YOU NEED TO TELL THEM I WAS AT
26 THE QUINCEANERA," WHY WOULD SHE GO AHEAD AND START
27 BLABBING ABOUT WHAT HE SAID TO'HER? THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY
28 SENSE. SHE WOULDN'T. SHE WOULD BE -- SHE WOULD SAY, "NO,
1614
1 JOSUE NEVER TOLD ME ANYTHING. I DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING."

2 BUT INSTEAD SHE BLABS ABOUT SOME RUMORS THAT JOSUE TOLD
3 HER.
4 SO THE THEORY THAT THE PROSECUTION'S TRYING TO
5 PUSH IS THAT JOSUE GETS AHOLD OF ALL OF THESE PEOPLE AND
6 SAYS, "YOU GUYS NEED TO HUSH-HUSH ABOUT ME BEING AT THE
7 PARK. YOU'VE GOT TO TELL THEM THAT I WAS AT THE
..
8 QUINCEANERA. THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO DO."
9 HE GOES AROUND AND TELLS CAROL, RONALD, ALEXIS,
10 AND SOMEHOW RAUL'S IN ON IT BECAUSE RAUL'S STORY IS THAT
11 HE WASN'T EVEN AT THE QUINCEANERA.
12 SO WHEN -- ACCORDING TO THE PROSECUTION'S
13 THEORY, WHEN SHE HEARS THIS FROM JOSUE, THAT SHE NEEDS TO
14 DOWNPLAY HIS INVOLVEMENT, SHE GOES -- WHEN SHE'S
15 INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE, SHE GOES AHEAD AND BLABS ABOUT
16 ALL THE RUMORS THAT HE TOLD HER. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY
17 LOGICAL SENSE. SHE WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT.
18 MR. TROCHA: EXCEPT SHE DID.
21 MR. TROCHA: IT SAYS IN THE TRANSCRIPT, "HOW MANY
22 TIMES HAVE YOU MET CHUBS?"
23 "IT WAS THE FIRST TIME AT THE CARNE ASADA."
24 "OKAY. SO THAT WAS THE"
26 MR. TROCHA: "OKAY. SO THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU
27 MET HIM? DID YOU ACTUALLY TALK TO HIM OR HAVE A
28 CONVERSATION?"
1615
1 11
MARTINEZ: N0. 11
2 "POLICE: COULD YOU I.D. HIM IF YOU SAW A

3 PICTURE OF HIM?"
4 11
YEAH."
5 "AND STONEY, SAME THING?"
6 11
MARTINEZ: YEAH."
7 "DETECTIVE: AND SPEEDY?"
8 "MARTINEZ: NO, NOT SPEEDY. WELL, I ONLY SEEN
9 HIM ONCE OR TWICE, BUT I'M NOT SURE BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW
10 THAT HE WAS SPEEDY."
11 "DETECTIVE: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HIS REAL
12 NAME IS? WHAT DO YOU KNOW HIM,BY, HIS REAL NAME?"
13 "MARTINEZ: I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM. 11
14 11
0KAY. AND HOW DO YOU KNOW STONEY?"
15 11
MARTINEZ. SAME THING, THEY JUST WENT."
16 11
DETECTIVE: IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU MET ALL
17 OF THEM OR HAVE YOU MET THEM BEFORE?n
18 "MARTINEZ: I HEARD ABOUT STONEY BECAUSE I LIVED
19 AT 39th AND IMPERIAL, AND THERE'S ALWAYS, LIKE, A LOT OF
11
20 PEOPLE HANGING OUT BY THE TREE.
21 11
DETECTIVE: RIGHT.
22 11
AND THEN I JUST HEARD STONEY, YOU KNOW" --
23 EXCUSE ME.
24 11
MARTINEZ: AND THEN I JUST HEARD STONEY, YOU
25 KNOW, BUT I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T TALK TO HIM OR
26 ANYTHING. 11
27 THEN THEY TALK ABOUT CHUBS, AND THEY TALK ABOUT
28 STONEY, AND THEY TALK ABOUT RAUL, THEN THEY TALK ABOUT
1616
1 MOISES' MEMBERSHIP IN 38th STREET. THAT'S THE END OF

2 AFTER SHE GIVES ALL THE INFORMATION THAT WE'VE TALKED
3 ABOUT IN THE POLICE REPORTS.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AGAIN,,SHE SAYS THE PERSON SPEEDY
5 WHO SHE'S TALKING ABOUT IS A 15- TO 17-YEAR-OLD KID.
6 THE COURT: I THINK WE NEED TO CONSIDER THIS QUESTION
7 IN THE CONTEXT OF A COUPLE OF RELEVANT LEGAL PRINCIPLES AS
8 WELL AS IN THE FACTUAL CONTEXT THAT THIS ISSUE OF EVIDENCE
9 ARISES.
10 THE LEGAL PRINCIPLES THAT SEEM APPROPRIATE FOR
11 CONSIDERATION ARE THESE: FIRST, EVIDENCE THAT GOES TO THE
12 CREDIBILITY OF WITNESSES IS RELEVANT; SECONDLY, ALL
13 RELEVANT EVIDENCE IS ADMISSIBLE PRESUMPTIVELY; THIRD, THAT
14 LAST RULE IS SUBJECT TO THE QUALIFICATION OF EVIDENCE CODE
15 SECTION 352.
16 EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 352 GIVES THE COURT THE
17 DISCRETION TO EXCLUDE ADMITTEDLY RELEVANT EVIDENCE IF THE
18 FACTORS IN SECTION 352 ARE MET, SUBSTANTIALLY OUTWEIGHED
19 BY THE RISK OF UNDUE PREJUDICE OR CONFUSING THE ISSUE OR
20 CONSUMPTION OF TIME.
21 FACTUALLY I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACT
22 THAT THIS ISSUE ARISES IN THE CONTEXT OF A GANG-RELATED
23 SHOOTING, MURDER, WHERE IT IS -- WHERE THE EVIDENCE
24 SUGGESTS PERHAPS EVEN MORE THAN IN THE USUAL GANG CASE A
25 PRETTY CONCERTED EFFORT ON THE PART OF A NUMBER OF PEOPLE
26 TO OBFUSCATE THE TRUTH AND TO DENY WHAT THEY SAW.
27 WE'VE HAD EVIDENCE 0~ THREATS TO WITNESSES.
28 WE'VE HAD EVIDENCE OF ALIBIS. THAT'S ALL FINE. IT'S UP
1617
1 TO THE JURY TO SORT THROUGH THAT EVIDENCE. I THINK WE NOW

2 HAVE EVIDENCE OF ATTEMPTS TO CREATE ALIBIS.
3 I HAVE TO SAY THAT CERTAINLY MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S
4 INTERPRETATION OF THE MEMORIAL THAT JOSUE WROTE IS ONE
5 THAT CAN BE ARGUED. IT'S NOT THE ONLY INTERPRETATION AND
6 FRANKLY I THINK THAT ANOTHER INTERPRETATION THAT CAN BE
7 ARGUED IS THAT THE WHOLE FIRST PART OF THAT IS A
8 SELF-SERVING STATEMENT THAT IN,THE CONTEXT OF THIS
9 MEMORIAL, MADE AFTER THE POLICE HAD ALREADY LEANED ON HIM,
10 JOSUE IS TRYING TO GO ON RECORD AS SAYING, "I WAS AS FAR
11 AWAY FROM YOU AS I POSSIBLY COULD HAVE BEEN AND WASN'T
12 THERE."
13 NOW, THAT'S JUST ANOTHER INTERPRETATION THAT CAN
14 BE ARGUED, AND I EXPECT BOTH COUNSEL WILL ARGUE THOSE
15 COMPETING INTERPRETATIONS IN THE CONTEXT OF ALL THE
16 EVIDENCE THAT WE HAVE IN THIS CASE.
17 THE REASON ALL OF THIS IS IMPORTANT, HOWEVER, IS
18 THIS: WE ALSO HAVE ONE WITNESS, GLENNYS BERUMAN, WHO
19 ADMITTEDLY WAS FOND OF MOISES,,WHOSE TESTIMONY DIRECTLY
20 IMPEACHES JOSUE'S ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS THERE OR NOT THAT
21 NIGHT. IT WILL BE UP TO THE JURY TO DECIDE THE
22 CREDIBILITY OF HER STATEMENTS AND JOSUE'S TESTIMONY.
23 ALL OF THIS IS A BACKDROP TO THE ISSUE THAT WE
24 HAVE TO CONSIDER RIGHT NOW AND THAT IS DO I ALLOW THIS
25 LINE OF EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA THAT WOULD GET INTO
26 THESE STATEMENTS THAT CAROL MARTINEZ VARIOUSLY SAYS JOSE
27 [SIC] TOLD HER THAT HE HEARD OR TOLD HER THAT HE KNEW? TO
28 THE EXTENT THAT THOSE MIGHT BE RUMORS, I UNDERSTAND THE
1618
1 DEFENSE'S CONCERN. IT SEEMS TO ME, THOUGH, THAT THE LAW

2 IS THAT THE COURT SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO JUDGE THE
3 CREDIBILITY OF WITNESSES IN RULING ON THE ADMISSIBILITY OF
4 EVIDENCE. OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S SOME LIMITATIONS TO THAT.
5 IF THE WITNESS IS WHOLLY CRAZY AND SAYS THAT PEOPLE FROM
6 MARS TOLD HIM THIS, THEN THE COURT MAY EXCLUDE THAT, BUT
7 THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE ON COMPETENCY GROUNDS, BUT NORMALLY
8 IN RULING ON EVIDENTIARY OBJECTIONS, THE COURT DOESN'T TRY
9 TO ASSESS WHAT THE COURT THINKS IS THE TRUTH.
10 IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE TESTIMONY THAT THE
11 DISTRICT ATTORNEY SEEKS TO PROFFER IS RELEVANT, IS
12 PROBATIVE AND, IN FACT, GIVEN THE GANG RELATED
13 CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH THIS CASE ARISES, HAS PROBATIVE
~
~ ,.
14 VALUE THAT OUTWEIGHS ANY PREJUDICE OR CONFUSION OR

15 CONSUMPTION OF TIME.
16 DEFENSE COUNSEL IS FREE TO ARGUE THAT THESE WERE
17 JUST RUMORS THAT JOSUE WAS REPEATING. I'LL EVEN GIVE A
18 LIMITING INSTRUCTION TO THE EFFECT THAT TESTIMONY THAT
19 JOSUE TOLD CAROL MARTINEZ CERTAIN DETAILS ABOUT THE
20 SHOOTING, IF THE JURY FINDS THAT THAT TESTIMONY WAS BASED
21 ON RUMORS THAT JOSUE HAD HEARD, THEN THEY MUST DISREGARD
22 IT AND NOT CONSIDER IT FOR ANY REASON, AND IF THEY FIND IT
23 WAS BASED ON JOSUE'S PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, THEN THEY MAY
24 CONSIDER IT AND GIVE IT WHATEVER WEIGHT IT'S ENTITLED,
25 SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
26 THE OBJECTION'S OVERRULED. I'M GOING TO ALLOW
27 THE EXAMINATION, AND LET'S BRING THE JURORS IN AND WE'LL
28 PRESS ON UNTIL 10:30.
1619

4 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. ALL
5 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT.
6 MS. MARTINEZ HAS RESUMED THE WITNESS STAND.
7 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. BEFORE THE BREAK, MS. MARTINEZ, I WAS ASKING
11 ABOUT A CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH JOSUE IN THE DAYS AFTER
12 THE MURDER BUT BEFORE THE POLICE TALKED TO YOU. WHAT WAS
13 THAT CONVERSATION ABOUT?
14 A. I DON'T KNOW. WE HAD A -- CONVERSATIONS. I
15 DON'T KNOW WHAT CONVERSATION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
16 Q. HOW ABOUT THE CONVERSATION WHERE JOSUE TOLD YOU
17 THAT HE HEARD THAT SPEEDY SHOT SMOKEY IN THE PARK?
18 A. HE DIDN'T TELL ME THAT.
19 Q. HE DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT? WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE
20 A COPY OF YOUR POLICE REPORT? WOULD THAT HELP YOU REFRESH
21 YOUR RECOLLECTION?
22 A. (NODS HEAD.)
23 THE COURT: SHE'S NODDED AFFIRMATIVELY.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. START HERE AND READ ALL THE WAY DOWN TO HERE
26 (INDICATING) TO YOURSELF.
28 \\
1620
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. YOU'VE READ THE STATEMENTS I'M TALKING ABOUT,
3 CORRECT, MS. MARTINEZ?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. IS YOUR MEMORY REFRESHED AS TO THIS CONVERSATION
6 NOW?
7 A. I DIDN'T TALK TO JOSUE ABOUT IT, BUT -- I DON'T
8 BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT I SAID BECAUSE THERE ARE NAMES IN
9 THERE AND A LINE SAYING SOMETHING I DIDN'T SAY, SO --
10 Q. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT'S IN THERE. YOU
11 TOLD THE POLICE THAT JOSUE TOLD YOU HE HEARD IT WAS SPEEDY
12 WHO WAS BEATING UP MOISES AND THAT SPEEDY SHOT MOISES,
13 CORRECT?
14 A. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS IN THERE.
15 Q. ARE YOU SAYING YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT?
16 A. I DON'T REMEMBER IF I DID OR IF I DIDN'T.
17 Q. YOU SEEM TO REMEMBER EVERYTHING ELSE THAT
18 HAPPENED AROUND THE EVENTS THAT NIGHT.
21 THE WITNESS: EVERYTHING ELSE? I DON'T REMEMBER
22 SPECIFIC THINGS THAT HAPPENED.
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. WELL, YOU REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY GOING TO THE REC
25 CENTER SEVERAL DAYS LATER TO MAKE SURE THAT JOSUE WAS ON
26 THE TAPE SO HE COULD PROVE HE WASN'T IN THE PARK.
27 A. I DIDN'T REMEMBER UNTIL I TALKED TO MATT AND HE
28 REFRESHED IT TO --
1621
1 Q. TO WHO?
2 A. MATT.
3 Q. WHO'S MATT?
4 A. HIM (INDICATING).
5 Q. THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY?
6 A. YEAH. I DIDN'T REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT THE REC
7 UNTIL I TALKED TO HIM. THAT'S WHEN I REMEMBERED.
8 Q. YOU JUST DIDN'T GO OVER THIS PART OF THE REPORT?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. THE PART WHERE JOSUE'S TELLING YOU WHO KILLED
11 SMOKEY?
12 A. I DON'T THINK HE DID TELL ME WHO KILLED HIM.
13 IT'S PROBABLY IN THERE. LIKE I SAID, THERE'S THINGS IN
14 THERE SAYING THAT I SAID WHICH I DIDN'T SAY.
15 Q. HOW ABOUT THE PART WHERE YOU TELL THE POLICE
16 THAT, "ALL I KNOW IS SPEEDY, CHUBS AND STONEY WERE
17 THERE" --
18 A. THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID.
19 Q. -- "IN THE PARK BECAUSE THEY WERE WITH MOISES.
20 THE OTHER PEOPLE, I DON'T KNOW ...
21 A. I NEVER SAID SPEEDY. THE ONLY NAME I DID SAY
22 WAS STONEY.
23 Q. THEN AFTER THAT YOU SAID, "AFTER I PICKED
24 EVERYTHING UP AT THE PARK, I SAW SPEEDY, CHUBS AND STONEY
25 WITH MOISES. THEY WERE THE LAST PEOPLE I SAW WITH
26 MOISES."
27 A. SEE, THAT'S THE LINE I'M TALKING ABOUT. I
28 DIDN'T SAY THAT. THE ONLY NAME I DID SAY WAS STONEY.
1622
1 Q. NOT CHUBS?
2 A. NO. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO HE IS.
3 Q. YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT MEETING CHUBS FOR THE
4 FIRST TIME AT THE QUINCEANERA IHAT DAY?
5 A. CHUBS, NO.
6 Q. YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT -- THIS WASN'T THE FIRST
7 TIME YOU MET SPEEDY BUT YOU HAD SEEN HIM SEVERAL TIMES
8 BEFORE?
9 A. NEVER SAW HIM. NEVER -- I DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS.
10 Q. THEN AFTER THAT YOU SAID JOSUE TOLD YOU "THEY
11 SAID THEY WERE OVER THERE AT THE PARK DRINKING." DID YOU
12 SAY THAT?
14 Q. "JOSUE ALSO CONTINUED, 'THEY STARTED ARGUING AND
15 SOMETHING CAME UP ABOUT LITTLE, CROOKS.'"
16 A. I DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS.
17 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO LITTLE CROOKS IS?
18 A. I DON'T.
19 Q. DID JOSUE KNOW WHO LITTLE CROOKS IS?
20 A. I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID.
21 Q. HE'S YOUR BEST FRIEND.
22 A. HE'S NOT MY BEST FRIEND.
23 Q. "JOSUE SAID THEY BLAMED MOISES FOR LEAVING
24 LITTLE CROOKS TO DIE." YOU DIDN'T TELL THAT TO THE
25 POLICE?
27 Q. YOU WENT ON TO SAY THAT, "I GUESS THAT IS WHEN
28 SPEEDY STARTED BEATING UP MOISES AND MOISES WAS BLEEDING
1623
~ 1 FROM HIS FACE."

2 A. I DON'T KNOW. HOW WOULD I KNOW IF HE WAS OR HE
3 WASN'T?
4 Q. LET'S EXPLORE THAT. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF
5 SOMEONE WAS BLEEDING FROM THE FACE REALLY BAD?
6 A. I WOULDN'T.
'
8 THE WITNESS: I WASN'T THERE, SO I DON'T KNOW --
10 THE WITNESS: -- IF HE WAS OR IF HE WASN'T.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. JUST IN GENERAL. LET'S SAY YOU SEE SOMEBODY
13 BLEEDING FROM THE FACE. DO YOU THINK YOU COULD TELL?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. THIS WOULD BE A PRETTY SPECIFIC THING, RIGHT?
16 A. (NODS HEAD.)
17 Q. IS THAT A "YES"?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. THE FACTS GIVEN TO YOU THAT YOU'RE TELLING THE
20 POLICE FROM JOSUE IS EVEN THOUGH YOU SAY YOU DON'T
21 REMEMBER, HE TOLD YOU THAT MOISES WAS BLEEDING BAD FROM
22 THE FACE.
23 A. I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID, THAT'S THE THING. I
24 DON'T REMEMBER HIM TELLING ME. I DON'T KNOW.
25 Q. WELL, ACCORDING TO THE STATEMENT, HE'S NOT
26 SAYING HE'S BLEEDING BAD FROM HIS LEG OR CHEST, RIGHT?
27 JUST FROM THE FACE; WOULD YOU AGREE?
28 A. YEAH.
1624
1 Q. AND THEN HE CAPS IT OFF WITH, "AFTER SEEING HIM

2 BLEEDING BAD FROM THE FACE, JOSUE SAYS, 'SPEEDY SHOT HIM
3 WITH A GUN. I THAT I s ALL JOSUE SAID. II
4 A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW JOSUE KNOWS. HE WAS WITH
5 ME.
6 Q. WAS HE, THOUGH?
7 A. HE WAS.
8 Q. WELL, YOU WERE INSIDE THE QUINCEANERA WHILE THE
9 NEXT TIME YOU SAW JOSUE WAS -- HE WAS OUTSIDE?
10 A. HE WAS WITH MY BROTHER RONALD THE WHOLE TIME
11 Q. BUT YOU WEREN'T?
12 A. -- OUTSIDE.
13 Q. BUT YOU WEREN'T, CORRECT?
14 A. I WASN'T.
15 Q. YOU WERE INSIDE THE QUINCEANERA?
16 A. I WAS.
17 Q. THE WHOLE TIME.
18 A. NOT THE WHOLE TIME.
19 Q. YOU WEREN'T OUTSIDE WITH THEM THE WHOLE TIME.
20 A. I WASN'T.
21 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE YOU THOUGHT
22 SPEEDY WAS A 15- OR 17-YEAR-OLD BOY?
23 A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I DON'T KNOW WHO SPEEDY IS,
24 SO I DON'T KNOW. WHY WOULD I SAY THAT?
25 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYBODY NAMED SPEEDY?
26 A. I DON'T.
27 Q. YOU HAVE ANOTHER BROTHER THOUGH, RIGHT?
28 A. I DO.
1625
1 Q. CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON ALL THE WAY TO MY
4 RIGHT IN THE COURT IN THIS CASE?
5 A. I DON'T.
6 Q. YOU DON'T?
7 A. I DON'T.
8 MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, I WAS REFERRING TO
9 MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOUR HONOR.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ IS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN
13 38th STREET, IS HE NOT?
14 A. I DON'T KNOW.
15 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOUR OWN BROTHER IS A GANG
16 MEMBER?
17 A. I DON'T. I DON'T TALK TO MY BROTHER.
18 Q. EVER?
19 A. I DO ONCE IN A WHILE, BUT WHY WOULD WE TALK
20 ABOUT THAT?
21 Q. WELL, WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE, YOU
22 MENTIONED THAT YOU TALKED TO YOUR BROTHER WITHIN THREE
23 DAYS OF THIS KILLING.
24 A. OKAY.
25 Q. IS THAT THE LAST TIME YOU TALKED TO HIM?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WHAT'S CHRISTIAN'S NICKNAME?
28 A. I DON'T KNOW.
1626
1 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S 11

VANDAL ?
11
2 A. (SHAKES HEAD.)
3 Q. IS THAT A "NO"?
4 A. "NO. II
5 Q. HOW OLD ARE YOU?

6 A. I'M 19.
7 Q. HOW OLD IS CHRISTIAN~
8 A. 22.
9 Q. THREE YEARS APART?
10 A. OKAY.
11 Q. WAS HE LIVING WITH YOU DURING THIS TIME?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. WHERE WAS HE LIVING?
14 A. WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND.
15 Q. SIRIA FORD?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW HE HAD A GIRLFRIEND NAMED SIRIA
18 FORD?
19 A. HE BROUGHT HER OVER TO THE HOUSE.
20 Q. SO YOU DID SEE HIM MULTIPLE TIMES IN THIS
21 PERIOD?
22 A. IT WAS BEFORE THAT. HE BROUGHT HIS GIRLFRIEND
23 OVER TO THE HOUSE WAY BEFORE ANYTHING. IT WAS BEFORE
24 ANYTHING HAPPENED. IT WAS LIKE A COUPLE YEARS BEFORE.
25 Q. HE NEVER BROUGHT THE DEFENDANT OVER TO YOUR
26 HOUSE?
27 A. NO. I DON'T RECOGNIZE HIM AT ALL.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOUR BROTHER HANGS OUT WITH THE
1627
1 DEFENDANT?
2 A. I DON'T.
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THE DEFENDANT IS KNOWN AS SPEEDY?
4 A. I DON'T.
5 Q. WHAT'S JOSUE'S NICKNAME?
6 A. I DON'T KNOW.
7 Q. DIDN'T YOU TELL THE POLICE THAT IT'S SCRAPPY?
8 A. SCRAPPY, YEAH.
9 Q. SO NOW YOU REMEMBER?
10 A. SCRAPPY, YEAH.
11 Q. WHAT'S RAUL'S NICKNAME?
12 A. THIS IS HOW I MET HIM, NOT BY "KNUCKLES."
13 Q. ARE THEY MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN 38th STREET?
14 A. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE.
15 Q. THEY'RE YOUR FRIENDS, MS. MARTINEZ.
16 A. THEY ARE MY FRIENDS, BUT WHY WOULD WE TALK ABOUT
17 THAT? I'M NOT INVOLVED IN ANYTHING, SO WHY BRING THINGS
18 LIKE THAT UP?
19 Q. WELL, ONE OF THESE GUYS HAS A SHELLTOWN TATTOO,
20 CORRECT?
21 A. I DON'T KNOW.
22 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS HAVE GANG
23 TATTOOS?
24 A. I DON'T. WHY WOULD I BE SAYING, "OH, LET ME SEE
25 YOUR TATTOOS" OR NOT? FOR WHAT?
26 Q. WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO KNOW IF YOU'RE HANGING OUT
27 WITH A GANG MEMBER?
28 A. NO. WHY WOULD I?
1628
1 Q. IN CASE A RIVAL GANG MEMBER FELT LIKE KILLING

2 THAT PERSON AND YOU WOULD BE CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. THAT DOESN'T OCCUR TO YOU?
5 A. NO, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT -- WHEN I HANG OUT WITH
6 THEM, WE'RE NOT THERE.
7 Q. DID YOU KNOW THAT MOISES WAS A MEMBER OF A GANG?
8 A. I MET HIM BY "SMOKEY." THAT'S WHAT I MET HIM
9 BY.
10 Q. DID YOU KNOW IF HE WAS A MEMBER OF A GANG?
11 A. I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS, BUT THAT'S THE NAME I
12 MET HIM THROUGH.
13 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE WHEN YOU WERE
14 ASKED IF YOU KNEW WHY "THEY BEAT AND SHOT MOISES," AND
15 YOUR RESPONSE WAS, "THAT'S THE"THING" --
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECT. HEARSAY.
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. YOU SAID' "THAT Is THE THING' WE DON IT
20 UNDERSTAND. THEY'RE FROM THE SAME GANG." SO YOU DID KNOW
21 MOISES WAS A MEMBER OF A GANG.
22 A. I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS JUMPED IN YET, BUT I KNEW
23 HE BACKED IT UP. THAT'S THE THING. THAT'S THE ONLY THING
24 I KNEW.
25 Q. AND IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU KNEW THAT THE SPEEDY
26 CHARACTER IS ALSO A MEMBER OF THE
.. SAME GANG .
27 A. I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S JUST THE NAME I HEARD,
28 "SPEEDY, SPEEDY," BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS, DON'T KNOW
1629
1 ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

2 Q. BUT YOU KNOW THEY'RE A MEMBER OF THE SAME GANG.
3 A. I GUESS SO.
4 Q. ARE YOU A MEMBER OF 38th STREET?
5 A. NO, I'M NOT.
6 Q. YOU JUST HANG AROUND WITH 38th STREET?
7 A. 38th STREET? I JUST HANG OUT WITH JOSUE.
'
8 THAT'S IT.
9 Q. BUT JOSUE'S NOT A MEMBER OF 38TH STREET,
10 MS. MARTINEZ.
11 A. I'M SAYING THOSE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE I HANG OUT
12 WITH THAT LIVE AROUND THERE.
13 Q. WELL, THERE'S A BUNCH OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT LIVE
14 AROUND THAT SAME NEIGHBORHOOD TOO, CORRECT?
15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. "HEX"?
18 Q. HOW ABOUT "LITTLE SPANKY"?
20 Q. HOW ABOUT "BIG SPANKY"?
21 A. I DON'T.
22 Q. HOW ABOUT "SHOTGUN"?
23 A. DON'T KNOW HIM.
24 Q. "LITTLE GANGSTER"?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. HOW ABOUT "VANDAL"?
27 A. I GUESS YOU SAID HE WAS MY BROTHER, RIGHT?
28 Q. YOU WOULD KNOW BEST, WOULD YOU NOT,
1630
1 MS. MARTINEZ?
2 A. LIKE I TOLD YOU BEFORE, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT
3 ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
4 Q. HOW ABOUT HIS GIRLFRIEND? IS SHE A MEMBER OF
5 38th STREET?
6 A. I DON'T KNOW.
7 Q. WOULDN'T YOU BE INTERESTED TO KNOW IF YOUR
8 BROTHER WAS DATING A GANG MEMBER?
9 A. I WOULDN'T.
10 Q. WHY NOT?
11 A. WHY WOULD I?
12 Q. IT'S YOUR FLESH AND BLOOD.
13 A. IT'S HIS LIFE, IT'S NOT MINE.
14 Q. YOU JUST DON'T CARE?
15 A. I DON'T. HE COULD DATE ANYONE HE WANTS.
16 Q. SO FOR ALL YOU KNOW, THAT WHOLE DAY THAT MOISES
17 WAS KILLED, YOU WERE SURROUNDED BY GANG MEMBERS AND YOU
18 HAD NO CLUE; IS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY?
19 A. I WASN'T SURROUNDED BY GANGBANGERS. I WASN'T.
20 Q. WELL, IF JOSUE, RAUL, CHUBS, STONEY AND SPEEDY
21 ARE GANG MEMBERS, THEY WOULD BE AROUND YOU ON THAT DAY,
22 CORRECT?
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES HER
24 TESTIMONY.
25 THE WITNESS: AT THE CARNE ASADA, YEAH, AFTER THE
26 QUINCEANERA.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MOTION TO STRIKE, YOUR HONOR.
28 THE COURT: WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT WAS THE ANSWER?
1631

2 THE COURT: IN LIGHT OF THE ANSWER, OVERRULED.
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. AND THE PERSON WE'RE HERE FOR THE MOST, HE WAS A
5 GANG MEMBER, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THAT?
6 A. WHO?
7 Q. MOISES.
8 A. I DON'T KNOW. I TOLD YOU BEFORE, HE BACKED IT
9 UP. I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T TALK WITH HIM ABOUT THAT;
10 WHEN WE WOULD HANG OUT, WE WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING
11 LIKE THAT.
12 Q. WE HEARD YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU DROVE ALL THE
13 WAY AROUND THE SOUTH PARK LOOKING FOR MOISES, RIGHT?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST DRIVE A BLOCK THIS WAY,
16 WHICH WOULD BE WEST ON "T" STREET TO GO SEE IF HE WAS AT
17 HIS HOUSE?
18 A. BECAUSE WHEN WE LEFT HIM, HE WAS AT THE PARK,
19 AND HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO WAIT THERE.
20 Q. YET WHEN YOU WENT TO THE PARK, HE WASN'T THERE,
21 CORRECT?
22 A. YEAH, HE WASN'T THERE, SO WE LEFT TO THE
23 QUINCEANERA.
24 Q. AND HE WASN'T AT THE QUINCEANERA EITHER, RIGHT?
25 A. HE WASN'T.
26 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU THEN GO DOWN TO HIS HOUSE AND SEE
27 IF HE WAS THERE?
28 A. FOR WHAT? HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO BE AT THE
1632
1 PARK, HE WASN'T, WE LEFT~
2 Q. WELL, THE ONLY REASON YOU DROVE AROUND THE PARK

3 AND LEFT HIM AT THE PARK WAS BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING TO GO
4 TO A QUINCEANERA LATER, RIGHT?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. BUT IT WAS TOO HARD FOR YOU TO GO ONE BLOCK TO
7 THE WEST TO SEE IF HE WAS AT HlS HOUSE?
8 A. IT WASN'T, BUT WHY WOULD I GO OVER THERE IF HE
9 SAID HE WAS GOING TO BE AT THE PARK WAITING FOR US? IF HE
10 WASN'T THERE, WE LEFT.
11 Q. IS IT BECAUSE, AS WE HEARD YOUR STATEMENT TO THE
12 POLICE, THAT THE LAST TIME YOU SAW MOISES, HE WAS WITH
13 SPEEDY, CHUBS AND STONEY?
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE
15 THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T SAY THAT.
17 THE WITNESS: LIKE I TOLD YOU BEFORE, THE ONLY NAME I
18 DID SAY WAS STONEY. THE OTHER NAMES I DIDN'T SAY.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. SO THESE NAMES CAME OUT OF THIN AIR?
21 A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY CAME OUT OF.
22 Q. THEY DIDN'T COME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH?
23 A. STONEY, YEAH.
24 Q. BECAUSE YOUR MEMORY IS ROCK SOLID TODAY?
25 A. STONEY. THAT'S ALL I REMEMBER.
1633

2 REDIRECT?
4
7 Q. MS. MARTINEZ
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING THE WITNESS WITH THE
9 POLICE REPORT --
11 Q. -- HAVE YOU SEEN THIS REPORT BEFORE?
12 A. NO, I HAVEN'T, UNTIL YOU GUYS WERE SHOWING IT TO
13 ME.
14 Q. CAN YOU -- DID I SHOW IT TO YOU BEFORE YOUR
15 TESTIMONY TODAY?
16 A. NO, YOU HAVEN'T.
17 Q. I ONLY SHOWED IT TO YOU DURING YOUR TESTIMONY?
18 A. YES, YOU HAVE.
19 Q. SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE SHOWN TO YOU BY THE
20 PROSECUTOR, DO YOU TAKE EXCEPTION TO SOME OF THOSE THINGS?
21 A. SOME, NOT ALL.
22 Q. MEANING SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE REPORTED
'
23 AREN'T ACCURATE, CORRECT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE REPORT IT SAYS THAT YOU SAW
26 SPEEDY THAT DAY.
27 A. I DID NOT SEE HIM.
28 Q. SO THAT'S NOT ACCURATE?
1634
1 A. THAT'S NOT ACCURATE.

2 Q. THIS REPORT IS NOT A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF YOUR
3 INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE, IS IT? ~
4 A. I DON'T THINK IT IS.

5 Q. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A -- ON CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU HEARD FROM JOSUE
7 GUTIERREZ, RIGHT?
8 A. MM-HMM.
9 Q. JOSUE WAS REPORTING RUMORS, WAS HE NOT?
10 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. LEADING.
13 Q. HOW WOULD YOU CLASSIFY THE THINGS THAT JOSUE WAS
14 TELLING YOU?
15 A. AS RUMORS, I GUESS. RUMORS.
16 Q. WELL, DID HE SAY HE WAS THERE?
17 A. HE DIDN'T SAY HE WAS THERE. HE WAS WITH ME,
18 so --
19 Q. WHERE DID HE SAY HE GOT THAT INFORMATION?
20 A. I DON'T KNOW.
21 Q. HE SAID -- DID HE SAY SOMEBODY ELSE SAID IT?
22 A. HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING.
23 Q. THERE WERE OTHER RUMORS BESIDES WHAT HE TOLD YOU
24 GOING AROUND, WEREN'T THERE?
25 A. YEAH, THERE WERE.
26 Q. THE INTERVIEW YOU GAVE POLICE WAS ON THE 16th,
27 RIGHT?
28 A. MM-HMM.
1635
1 Q. THREE DAYS AFTER THE MURDER?

2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. AND WHAT YOU HEARD FROM JOSUE WASN'T THE ONLY
4 RUMOR?
5 A. IT WASN'T.
6 Q. THERE WERE A TON OF RUMORS GOING AROUND?
7 A. THERE WERE.
8 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED ISHMAEL ACEVES?
9 A. I DO.
10 Q. WAS HE TELLING RUMORS AS WELL?
12 Q. NOW, YOU WENT TO THE SAME SCHOOL AS MOISES?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. SO DID JOSUE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. AND RAUL AGUILAR AS WELL?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND AT THE SCHOOL -- WERE PEOPLE SAYING THINGS
'
19 AT THE SCHOOL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED?
20 A. AT THE TIME -- I GOT OUT OF POINT LOMA BEFORE --
21 OR DURING THIS, SO I WOULDN'T GO BACK TO POINT LOMA. IT
22 WAS LIKE TWO WEEKS I DIDN'T GO TO SCHOOL. SO AT SCHOOL I
23 DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF RUMORS THERE WERE.
24 Q. HOW ABOUT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD?
25 A. THE NEIGHBORHOOD IT WAS SOME BLACK PEOPLE THAT
26 DID IT, AND THEN IT'S LIKE DIFFERENT RUMORS.
27 Q. ABOUT DIFFERENT GANGS?
28 A. DIFFERENT GANGS, YEAH.
1636
1 Q. ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL?

2 A. OTHER PEOPLE.
3 Q. SO THIS WASN'T THE ONLY RUMOR THAT WAS AROUND?
4 A. IT WASN'T.
5 Q. THIS WAS JUST ONE OF THEM?
6 A. ONE OF THEM.
7 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, HOW SOON AFTER THE GUNSHOTS DID
8 YOU GO OUTSIDE?
9 A. I DON'T KNOW HOW SOON THE GUNSHOTS WERE, BUT
10 ONCE THEY WENT, THEY WERE SAYING THERE WERE SHOTS OUTSIDE,
'
11 I WENT OUTSIDE. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS RIGHT AWAY OR 10
12 MINUTES LATER.
13 Q. DID MR. GUTIERREZ EVER ASK YOU TO COME TO COURT
14 OR ASK YOU TO SAY THINGS TO THE POLICE?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. DID YOU EVER HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH
17 MR. GUTIERREZ ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE SAID?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. IN FACT, WHEN YOU DID TALK TO THE POLICE, YOU
20 TOLD THE POLICE ABOUT THINGS THAT MR. GUTIERREZ SAID,
21 DIDN'T YOU?
22 A. I DID.
25 FURTHER CROSS?
26 MR. TROCHA: JUST ONE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
27 \\
28 \\
1637
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. SO YOU REMEMBER JOSUE COMING UP AND NOT TALKING
'
4 TO YOU OR MAYBE TALKING TO YOU ABOUT OTHER RUMORS BUT NOT
5 THE ONE WHERE SPEEDY BEAT MOISES, HIS FACE WAS BLEEDING
6 SEVERELY, AND THEN SHOT HIM AFTERWARDS, ALL OVER LITTLE
7 CROOKS?
8 A. JOSUE DIDN'T TELL ME --
10 THE WITNESS: -- OTHER RUMORS.
12 GO AHEAD.
13 THE WITNESS: HE DIDN'T TELL ME OTHER RUMORS. THERE
14 WAS OTHER PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT IT.
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. WE JUST HEARD THAT YOU TOLD THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY
17 HE TOLD YOU A MULTITUDE OF RUMORS; IS THAT TRUE?
19 TESTIMONY.
20 THE COURT: IS THAT TRUE? IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID?
21 THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T SAY THAT.
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. IN FACT, THE ONLY ONE YOU HEARD FROM JOSUE IS
25 THIS ONE, CORRECT?
26 A. MM-HMM.
27 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING MORE.
1638

3 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, WHEN YOU WERE AT THE CARNE ASADA,
4 DID YOU SEE SOMEBODY NAMED SPEEDY THERE?
5 A. I DIDN'T. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I DON'T KNOW WHO
6 HE IS. I DON'T KNOW HOW HE LOOKS LIKE. I DON'T. I DON'T
7 KNOW ANY GANGBANGER, LIKE, I DON'T. THERE WERE OTHER
8 PEOPLE AROUND THERE. I DON'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE.
11 THE COURT: MAY MS. MARTINEZ BE EXCUSED?
13 MR. TROCHA: YES.
14 THE COURT: MS. MARTINEZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
15 COURT. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE
16 DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY OR THE QUESTIONS YOU WERE
17 ASKED WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS
18 UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER, OKAY?
20 THE COURT: GOOD DAY TO YOU, MA'AM.
21 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE THE MIDMORNING
22 RECESS. I KNOW YOU ALL JUST HAD ONE BUT COUNSEL AND COURT
23 STAFF DID NOT, NOR DID I. WE'LL BE IN RECESS FOR 15
24 MINUTES, RECONVENE AT 15 MINUTES BEFORE THE HOUR OF 11:00.
25 THANK YOU. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. WE ARE IN
26 RECESS.
27 (RECESS TAKEN.)
28 \\
1639

3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING. WE'RE BACK ON
4 THE RECORD.
5 THIS IS THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
6 AGAINST FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
7 PRESENT. NO MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT AND NO
8 WITNESSES ARE PRESENT IN THE COURTROOM.
9 A COUPLE OF HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS BEFORE WE GET
10 UNDERWAY: THERE HAD BEEN A WITNESS IN THE CUSTODY OF THE
11 JUVENILE AUTHORITIES WHO WAS A~ POTENTIAL DEFENSE WITNESS.
12 THAT PERSON'S NAME IS GREGORY ROMAN MENDOZA. I THINK HIS
13 NAME WILL APPEAR IN THE RECORD AND IN THE MINUTES EARLIER
14 WHEN WE WERE ATTEMPTING TO DO ORDERS TO PRODUCE AND COMPEL
15 THE ATTENDANCE OF WITNESSES.
16 IN ANY EVENT, HE IS IN THE CUSTODY OF
17 JUVENILE HALL AUTHORITIES. HE WAS PRODUCED TODAY. THE
18 JUVENILE AUTHORITIES AND THE SHERIFF ARE HOLDING HIM OVER
19 IN THE HALL OF JUSTICE.
20 BEFORE GOING ON THE RECORD I WAS INFORMED BY
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI THAT HE WILL NOT, IN FACT, BE CALLED AS A
22 WITNESS; IS THAT CORRECT?
24 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WE'LL DISSOLVE ANY ORDER TO
25 PRODUCE IN REGARDS TO MR. MENDOZA AND ORDER THAT HE BE
26 RETURNED TO THE CUSTODY OF THE JUVENILE AUTHORITIES.
27 WE'VE ALSO DETERMINED IN TERMS OF THE BATTING
28 ORDER OF THE WITNESSES THERE IS ANOTHER WITNESS THAT WE'RE
1640
1 GOING TO TAKE OUT OF ORDER. THIS IS A DEFENSE WITNESS

2 NAMED ANTRIEL MATTHEWS. HE IS IN CUSTODY. WE WILL HAVE
3 HIM PRODUCED AS SOON AS THE JURORS ARE BROUGHT BACK INTO
4 THE COURTROOM.
5 I HAVE EXCUSED DETECTIVE GASCA UNTIL 1:30 THIS
6 AFTERNOON. IT'S NOW FIVE MINUTES UNTIL 11:00.
7 NEXT, THERE WAS AN EVIDENTIARY ISSUE THAT
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI WISHED TO ADDRESS. MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
10 BASED ON THE COURT'S EARLIER RULING, LETTING IN
11 WHAT THE DEFENSE PERCEIVES AS RUMORS BY JOSE GUTIERREZ, IT
12 APPEARS AS THOUGH RUMORS IN THIS CASE HAVE BECOME
13 EXTREMELY RELEVANT. THE DEFENSE'S THEORY IS THAT JOSUE
14 WAS RELATING RUMORS TO CAROL AND MAYBE GLENNYS.
15 THE FACT THAT THERE ARE ADDITIONAL RUMORS GOING
16 AROUND --
17 THE COURT: YOU'RE ASKING TO REVISIT THE IN LIMINE
18 MOTION WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHER RUMORS?
20 THE COURT: DENIED. YOU ALREADY DID IT MORE THAN I
21 WOULD HAVE LIKED. HAD THERE BEEN AN OBJECTION, I WOULD
22 HAVE SUSTAINED IT. THE FACT THAT THERE WERE RUMORS
23 FLOATING AROUND IS FINE. THE CONTENT OF THOSE RUMORS IS
24 NOT FINE.
25 THE BASIS OF MY THINKING IS THIS: JUST AS A
26 WITNESS IS FREE TO SAY, "I DON'T REMEMBER," A WITNESS IS
27 ALSO, I THINK, FREE -- NOT LEG~LLY, BUT IT COMMONLY
28 HAPPENS -- TO SAY, "OH, WELL, I JUST HEARD THIS. I REALLY
1641
1 DIDN'T SEE IT, .. AND I THINK THAT WHERE THERE IS A GOOD

2 ENOUGH POSSIBILITY THAT THAT IS A LIE BASED ON ALL THE
3 OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CASE, THE PROSECUTION IS
4 ENTITLED TO TRY TO SO ARGUE, BUT THAT DOESN'T OPEN THE
5 DOOR TO THEN LETTING EVERY OTHER RUMOR COME IN.
6 YOU CAN ARGUE THAT IT WAS BASED ON RUMORS.
7 YOU'VE ALREADY GOTTEN SOME OF THAT OUT OF MS. MARTINEZ,
8 BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT ALL THE OTHER RUMORS THAT WERE
9 FLOATING AROUND HAVE ANY RELEVANCE WHATSOEVER. THE
10 ORIGINAL IN LIMINE MOTION RULING WILL STAND.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, MAY I INQUIRE AS TO
12 CLARIFY THE RULING? I'D JUST LIKE TO --
13 THE COURT: RIGHT. THE RULING IS YOU CAN'T GET INTO
14 THE RUMORS.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BUT YOU ALSO STATED THAT THE FACT
16 THAT THERE WERE RUMORS IS RELEVANT.
17 THE COURT: YES.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SO I'M'TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT
19 THING AND OBEY THE COURT'S RULING. WHEN I ASK WITNESSES,
20 "WERE THERE RUMORS GOING AROUND," THAT'S ACCEPTABLE?
21 THE COURT: YES.
23 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY TRAPP, DO I UNDERSTAND
24 THAT MR. WILLIAMS IS ON HIS WAY, ANTRIEL, THE IN-CUSTODY
25 ADULT?
26 THE BAILIFF: YES, YOUR HONOR. I HOPE MY ASSISTANT
27 HASN'T GOTTEN LOST.
28 THE COURT: NO PROBLEM. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.
1642
1 LET'S GO AHEAD AND BRING THE JURORS IN, AND

2 HE'LL GET HERE SOON ENOUGH.
5 THE COURT: LET'S GO BACK ON THE RECORD.
6 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD MORNING. THE RECORD
7 WILL REFLECT ALL THE JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND
8 COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
9 I KNOW SOME OF YOU HAVE MILITARY BACKGROUNDS.
10 THERE'S A SAYING THAT I HAD HEARD AS A YOUNGSTER THAT
11 PLANS SOMETIMES TEND TO FALL APART WHEN THE FIRST SHOT IS
12 FIRED, AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE HERE.
13 I HAD YOU DRAW A TRIPLE LINE UNDER THE TESTIMONY
14 BECAUSE WE WERE GOING TO SWITCH TO A DEFENSE WITNESS.
15 WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ANOTHER DEFENSE WITNESS OUT OF ORDER
16 BEFORE WE GET BACK TO DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY.
17 I'VE EXCUSED DETECTIVE GASCA UNTIL 1:30, AND
18 WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM A GENTLEMEN NAMED MR. ANTRIEL
19 MATTHEWS.
20 ONE MOMENT, PLEASE.
22 THE COURT: BEFORE I ADDRESS MR. MATTHEWS' TESTIMONY
23 FURTHER, I WANT TO ALSO GIVE YOU A LIMITING INSTRUCTION
24 WITH RESPECT TO SOME OF THE TESTIMONY THAT WE HEARD FROM
25 MS. MARTINEZ. I THINK WE'VE TOUCHED ON THIS SUBJECT
26 EARLIER.
27 SOMETIMES EVIDENCE IS RECEIVED FOR A LIMITED
28 PURPOSE. THIS IS A VARIATION ON THAT NOTION. THIS NOTION
1643
1 IS THAT SOMETIMES EVIDENCE IS RECEIVED BUT YOU HAVE TO

2 CONSIDER SOMETHING BEFORE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO USE IT AS
3 EVIDENCE.
4 LET ME EXPLAIN. YOU HAVE HEARD TESTIMONY FROM
5 MS. MARTINEZ, SOME OF IT BY WAY OF IMPEACHMENT THROUGH
6 STATEMENTS REPORTEDLY MADE TO THE POLICE, THAT JOSUE
7 GUTIERREZ TOLD MS. MARTINEZ CERTAIN DETAILS ABOUT THE
8 SHOOTING OF MOISES.
9 I DON'T WISH TO OVERLY EMPHASIZE THAT TESTIMONY,
10 BUT I WANT TO HAVE US FOCUSED ON WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
11 THOSE DETAILS INCLUDE TESTIMONY REGARDING AN ARGUMENT
12 ABOUT BLAMING MOISES FOR LEAVING LITTLE -- WHO IS IT?
13 LITTLE CROOKS TO DIE AT THAT EARLIER SHOOTING, STATEMENTS
14 ABOUT SPEEDY BEATING MOISES, S~ATEMENTS ABOUT MOISES
15 BLEEDING FROM HIS FACE AND SPEEDY SHOOTING HIM. I WOULD
16 LIKE YOU TO TAKE THAT EVIDENCE, THAT TESTIMONY, AND PUT IT
17 IN A BOX, SO TO SPEAK, SUBJECT TO THESE RULES.
18 MY INSTRUCTIONS TO YOU ABOUT THAT EVIDENCE IS
19 THIS: IF YOU FIND IN YOUR DELIBERATIONS, AFTER
20 CONSIDERING ALL THE EVIDENCE, THAT JOSUE DID NOT HAVE
21 PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THOSE THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT HE
22 WAS JUST REPEATING RUMORS THAT HE HAD HEARD, YOU MUST NOT
23 CONSIDER THAT EVIDENCE FOR ANY PURPOSE; LEAVE IT IN THE
24 BOX. HOWEVER, IF YOU FIND THAT JOSUE DID SEE THOSE THINGS
25 OR OTHERWISE HAD PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THEM, THEN YOU MAY
'
26 CONSIDER THAT EVIDENCE AND GIVE IT WHATEVER WEIGHT YOU
27 BELIEVE IT IS ENFILED TO, YOU MAY GIVE IT THE WEIGHT TO
28 WHICH YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE GIVEN.
1644
1 SO I'VE PROBABLY MADE THIS MORE COMPLEX THAN IT

2 NEEDS TO BE. IF YOU THINK IT WAS JOSUE SAYING RUMORS THAT
3 HE HAD HEARD AFTER YOU CONSIDER ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE IN
4 THIS CASE, THEN DON'T CONSIDER IT. IF YOU THINK THAT IT
5 WAS BASED ON HIS PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, THEN YOU MAY CONSIDER
6 IT.
'
7 I SEE EVERYBODY NODDING. DOES EVERYBODY
8 UNDERSTAND THE INSTRUCTION?
9 UNIDENTIFIED JUROR: YES, YOUR HONOR.
10 THE COURT: THANK YOU AND PLEASE CONSIDER YOURSELVES
11 SO INSTRUCTED.
12 NEXT, THE NEXT WITNESS WHO'S GOING TO TESTIFY,
13 MR. WILLIAMS [SIC] IS IN CUSTODY. THAT MEANS HE'S
14 INCARCERATED. HE'S GOING TO BE BROUGHT IN HERE IN THAT
15 STATE. PLEASE DO NOT SPECULATE ABOUT THE REASON THAT HE'S
16 IN CUSTODY. THE FACT THAT A WITNESS IS IN CUSTODY DOES
17 NOT BY ITSELF MAKE A WITNESS EITHER MORE OR LESS
18 BELIEVABLE. EVALUATE THE WITNESS'S TESTIMONY ACCORDING TO
19 ALL THE INSTRUCTIONS THAT I WILL GIVE YOU AT THE END OF
20 THE CASE.
21 AND WITH THAT PREAMBLE, LET'S HAVE MR. WILLIAMS
22 [SIC] BROUGHT IN.
26 THE COURT: PLEASE STAND THERE FOR ONE MOMENT. AS
27 MUCH AS YOU ARE COMFORTABLY ABLE GIVEN YOUR RESTRAINTS,
28 RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND FACE THIS LADY.
1645
1 ANTRIEL MATTHEWS,
4
5 THE WITNESS: YES.
6 THE CLERK: PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND SPELL
8 THE WITNESS: ANTRIEL MATTHEWS, M-A-T-T-H-E-W-S.
9 THE COURT: AND HOW DO YOU SPELL THE FIRST NAME,
10 PLEASE?
11 THE WITNESS: A-N-T-R-I-E~L.
12 THE COURT: R-I-E-L?

13 THE WITNESS: YEAH.
14 THE COURT: MR. MATTHEWS, THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A
15 SEAT AND GOOD MORNING TO YOU.
17 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CONDUCT
18 EXAMINATION.
20
23 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. MATTHEWS.
24 A. GOOD MORNING.
25 Q. HAVE WE EVER SPOKEN BEFORE, ME AND YOU?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WE SPOKE BRIEFLY IN THIS COURTROOM WHEN YOU WERE
28 ORDERED, RIGHT?
1646
1 A. OH, YEAH.
2 Q. HAVE WE EVER SPOKE ABOUT -- ME AND YOU, HAVE WE
3 EVER SPOKE PERSONALLY ABOUT THE DETAILS YOU'RE ABOUT TO
4 TESTIFY TO?
5 A. NO.
6 Q. SHOWING YOU DEFENSE W, JUST SHOWING THE FRONT
7 PAGE OF THIS EXHIBIT, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS BEFORE?
8 A. NAH.
9 Q. NO?
10 A. (SHAKES HEAD.)
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY BY THE NAME OF ANDRES
12 LOPEZ?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW HIM?
15 A. I KNOW HIS BROTHER AND I KNOW PRETTY MUCH HIS
16 WHOLE FAMILY.
17 Q. WHAT'S HIS BROTHER'S NAME?
18 A. OMAR.
19 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, MR. MATTHEWS: ARE YOU IN A
20 GANG?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT GANG?
23 A. FROM CITY HEIGHTS JUNIORS.
24 THE COURT: I'M SORRY?
25 THE WITNESS: CITY HEIGHTS.
26 THE COURT: CITY HEIGHTS.' THANK YOU.
28 Q. IS THAT GANG AN ETHNIC GANG?
1647
1 A. SAY IT AGAIN.
2 Q. IS THAT AN ETHNIC GANG?
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. WHAT'S THE ETHNICITY?
5 A. HISPANIC.
6 Q. ARE YOU HISPANIC, MR. MATTHEWS?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. WHAT ARE YOU?
9 A. I'M JAMAICAN AND BLACK.
10 Q. HOW DID YOU GET INTO A HISPANIC GANG?
11 A. GREW UP WITH THEM PRETTY MUCH.
12 Q. YOU GREW UP IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD?
13 A. YEAH.
14 Q. DO YOU HAVE A NICKNAME?
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. WHAT IS IT?
17 A. MOSCA.
18 Q. CAN YOU REPEAT IT.
19 A. MOSCA.
20 THE COURT: MOSCA?
22 THE COURT: M-0-S-C-A, MOSCA.
24 Q. MOSCA?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. THIS OMAR CHARACTER, THAT'S ANDRES'S BROTHER?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. IS HIS NAME OMAR LOPEZ?
1648
1 A. YES.
2 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHAT GANG IS HE IN?
3 A. FROM THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD.
4 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE FROM THAT NEIGHBORHOOD?
5 A. IT'S LIKE A FAMILY PRETTY MUCH, TAKE CARE OF ONE
6 ANOTHER.
7 Q. HE'S IN THE GANG?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD," YOU
10 MEAN IN THE SAME GANG?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. OKAY. AROUND 2008, WHAT GANG WAS ANDRES LOPEZ A
13 MEMBER OF?
14 A. HE WAS TRYING TO GET DOWN FOR THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
15 Q. WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD?
16 A. THE JUNIORS.
17 Q. CITY HEIGHTS JUNIORS?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. WHAT WAS HE CLAIMING?
21 Q. WHAT GANG WAS HE CLAIMING?
..
22 A. HE WAS CLAIMING JUNIORS.
23 Q. WAS HE ABLE TO GET IN THAT GANG?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. AND WHY NOT?
26 A. BECAUSE HE WAS TELLING TOO MANY STORIES, YOU
27 KNOW, THAT HE WAS DOING SHOOTINGS, STABBING PEOPLE AND
28 ALL. THEN I FIND OUT IT WASN'T TRUE, AND TO ME, YOU DON'T
1649
1 MAKE SHIT UP LIKE THAT. YOU DON'T MAKE STUFF UP LIKE

2 THAT.
'
3 Q. AND YOU THOUGHT HE WASN'T BEING HONEST?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS TELLING
6 THE TRUTH?
7 A. BECAUSE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THAT I KNOW KNOWS HIM,
8 AND THE PEOPLE HE WAS SAYING HE WAS RIDING WITH SAID THEY
9 WERE NEVER THERE, HE WAS NEVER WITH THEM. HE WAS TELLING
10 STORIES PRETTY MUCH.
11 Q. DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER HE'S AN
12 HONEST PERSON?
13 A. FROM THAT, NO, HE'S NOT HONEST, TO ME.
14 Q. SO YOU DO HAVE AN OPINION?
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. AND WHAT IS THAT OPINION?
17 A. THAT HE'S A LIAR, YOU KNOW.
18 Q. THIS TIME PERIOD WHERE HE'S CLAIMING, IS IT SUR
19 13 JUNIORS?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. WHAT TIME PERIOD IS THAT?
22 A. SINCE -- I'D SAY FROM '07 TO '08 WHEN I STARTED
23 TALKING TO HIM.
24 Q. AROUND 2008?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN OCTOBER 3rd, 2008?
27 A. THE LAST TIME I SPOKE TO HIM?
28 Q. NO, THE LAST TIME THAT YOU KNOW HE WAS TRYING TO
1650
1 BECOME A MEMBER OF THAT GANG.

2 A. YOU COULD SAY THAT BECAUSE -- YEAH, BECAUSE I
3 HAD GOT BUSTED IN NOVEMBER.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE GANG SHELLTOWN IS?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. WHAT'S THAT GANG?
7 A. ENEMIES.
8 Q. YOU GUYS ARE NOT FRIENDS?
9 A. NO, WE ARE NOT.
10 Q. DO YOU GET IN FIGHTS WITH THEM?
11 A. YES, SIR.
12 Q. WOULD YOU USE THE TERM "RIVAL"?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT DOES RIVAL MEAN?
15 A. SMASH ON SITE.
16 Q. WHAT IF SOMEBODY FROM SHELLTOWN IS IN YOUR
17 NEIGHBORHOOD?
18 A. SMASH THEM, TOO.
19 Q. WHAT IF YOU'RE IN SHELLTOWN?
20 A. WELL, I'M STILL GOING TO RIDE FOR MINE.
21 Q. YOU SAID HE WAS IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD. DID HE
22 LIVE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD?
23 A. WHO?
24 Q. ANDRES.
25 A. NO, NOT REALLY, BUT HE WOULD POP UP ONCE IN A
26 WHILE.
27 Q. AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THAT YOU SAW HIM?
28 A. IN '08.
1651
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU. NOTHING

2 FURTHER.
3 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU.
5
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. MR. MATTHEWS, YOU KNOW WHO I AM, DON'T YOU?
9 A. YEAH. YOU KNOW WHO I AM, TOO.
10 Q. EXACTLY. LAST YEAR YOU WERE CONVICTED OF FELONY
11 ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON, CORRECT?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. THAT WAS A CASE WHERE YOU AND SEVERAL OF YOUR
14 FRIENDS TRIED TO ATTACK A MARINE, CORRECT?
15 A. OKAY.
16 Q. AND YOU LOST.
17 A. OKAY.
18 Q. THIS WAS AFTER ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR FRIENDS THREW
19 A ROCK THROUGH HIS WINDOW IN FRONT OF A HOUSE ON 844 WEST,
20 CORRECT?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. 844 WEST ISN'T IN CITY HEIGHTS JUNIOR'S
23 TERRITORY, IS IT?
24 A. NO, IT'S NOT.
25 Q. WHOSE TERRITORY IS IT IN?
26 A. IN SHELLTOWN.
27 Q. YOU EVER HEARD OF THE GANG O.E.K.?
28 A. NO, I HAVEN'T.
1652
1 Q. NEVER?
2 A. NO.
3 Q. ISN'T JOSE GARCIA, ONE OF YOUR CO-DEFENDANTS IN
4 THE CASE, A DOCUMENTED MEMBER OF O.E.K.?
5 A. I DON'T KNOW.
6 Q. JUAN GARCIA, THE OTHER CO-DEFENDANT, IS AN
7 O.E.K. GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
8 A. I DON'T KNOW.
9 Q. RIGOBERTO MONTES, THE THIRD CO-DEFENDANT, IS AN
10 O.E.K GANG MEMBER --
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. FOUNDATION. PERSONAL
12 KNOWLEDGE.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. -- CORRECT?
16 A. I DON'T KNOW.
17 Q. AND, FINALLY, THE GIRL THAT THREW THE ROCK,
18 ELISE VALDEZ, SHE'S AN O.E.K. GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
19 A. NO, SHE'S NOT.
20 Q. SHE SHOUTED "O.E.K." RIGHT BEFORE YOU CHARGED
21 OUT OF THE HOUSE TO ASSAULT THIS MARINE, CORRECT?
22 A. I WASN'T -- LIKE YOU SAID, I WAS INSIDE THE
23 HOUSE.
24 Q. AND THEN YOU CAME OUT AND FOUGHT THE MARINE --
25 A. YEAH.
..
26 Q. --RIGHT AS SHE'S SAYING, "O.E.K."?
27 A. NO. LIKE YOU JUST SAID, SHE YELLED IT, THEN I
28 CAME OUT OF THE HOUSE.
1653
1 Q. YOU'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT THAT YOU CAN'T TRUST

2 ANDRES BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING TO JOIN YOUR GANG, CORRECT?
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. WHY ARE YOU HANGING OUT WITH A COMPLETELY
5 DIFFERENT GANG ALTOGETHER?
6 A. THEY DON'T BANG.
7 Q. O.E.K. DOESN'T BANG?
8 A. NO. THE GUYS YOU JUST MENTIONED, THEY'RE MY
9 FRIENDS.
10 Q. FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET, CORRECT?
11 A. IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT THAT WAY.
11
12 Q. WE JUST HEARD THAT YOU RIDE FOR YOURS, OR RIDE
13 FOR MINE" IS WHAT YOU SAID, CORRECT?
14 A. YES, SIR.
15 Q. YOU "SMASH ON SITE ? 11
16 A. YES, SIR.
17 Q. YOU'RE NOT SMASHING THESE GUYS ON SITE, CORRECT?
18 A. THEY AIN'T ENEMIES. ~THEY DON'T BANG. I DON'T
19 BEAT UP PEOPLE THAT AREN'T REALLY --
20 Q. EVEN IF THEY CLAIM A WHOLE OTHER GANG?
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. WERE YOU LIVING DOWN ON 39th AND IMPERIAL?
23 A. 39th AND IMPERIAL? NO, I NEVER LIVED ON
24 IMPERIAL.
25 Q. HOW ABOUT DOWN ANYWHERE NEAR HIGHLAND?
26 A. MORE ON 43rd.
27 Q. 43rd?
28 A. YEAH.
1654
1 Q. 43rds AT LEAST, WHAT, TWO BLOCKS AWAY FROM

2 SHELLTOWN'S FURTHEST BOUNDARY?
3 A. I GUESS, IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT THAT WAY.
4 Q. 46th STREET IS WHERE YOU WERE ARRESTED,
5 CORRECT?
6 A. NO, IT WASN'T.
7 Q. I'M SORRY. IT WAS WEST, WEST AND --
8 A. NO, IT WASN'T WEST.
9 Q. THE HOUSE WAS ON 844 WEST.
10 A. I WAS ARRESTED ON 45TH.
11 Q. AFTER YOU RAN. THE INCIDENT OCCURRED ON WEST,
12 RIGHT?
13 A. OKAY.
14 Q. WELL, YOU WERE THERE, RIGHT?
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. IS THIS SOME SORT OF BACKGROUND CHECK THAT THE
17 CITY HEIGHTS JUNIORS DO BEFORE INITIATING PEOPLE?
18 A. IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT THAT WAY.
19 Q. TELL ME HOW THIS BACKGROUND CHECK WORKS.
20 A. WELL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN HOW DOES IT WORK? YOU
21 FIND OUT WHERE THE CAT'S BEEN AT, WHAT'S HIS HISTORY.
22 LIKE FOR A JOB, WE DO A BACKGROUND CHECK. YOU HAVE JOB
23 EXPERIENCE, PUT IT DOWN. IF YOU DON'T, DON'T PUT IT. YOU
24 GO ACTUALLY RIDING, CALL YOUR REFERENCES, SO --
25 Q. HOW WOULD THIS GUY GO RIDING, MAKE THESE CLAIMS,
26 IF HE WASN'T EVEN A MEMBER OF A GANG?
27 A. YOU TALKING ABOUT ANDRES?
28 Q. YES.
1655
1 A. BECAUSE HIS BROTHER'S FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD, SO

2 HE THOUGHT HE WAS FROM THE HOOD .
..
3 Q. WELL, IF HE'S MAKING ALL THESE CLAIMS ABOUT
4 RIDING AND THINGS AND SHOOTING AND STABBING PEOPLE, HE
5 WOULD HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A GANG, RIGHT?
6 A. LIKE I SAID, HE WAS TRYING TO KICK IT DOWN. DO
7 YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY? HE WAS TRYING TO
8 GET DOWN FOR THE NEIGHBORHOOD, SO TO MAKE HIMSELF SEEM
9 LIKE HE WAS DOING SOMETHING ACTIVE, HE WOULD MAKE UP THESE
10 STORIES.
11 Q. YOUR GANG IS UP IN CITY HEIGHTS, RIGHT?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. WHERE DOES YOUR GANG WHAT'S THE TERRITORY
14 YOUR GANG COVERS?
15 A. FROM WABASH TO 54th.
16 Q. AND HOW DOES IT GO NORTH AND SOUTH?
17 A. UNIVERSITY TO EL CAJON BOULEVARD.
18 Q. IT'S NOWHERE NEAR SHELLTOWN, IS IT?
19 A. NO, SIR. BUT THAT'S WHERE I LIVE AT.
20 Q. YOU'RE SAYING ANDRES IS JUST GOING UP THERE AND
21 HANGING AROUND WITH YOU GUYS?
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. HOW DOES ANDRES LOOK?
24 A. SHORT. HE LOOKS PRETTY MUCH LIKE HIS OLDER
25 BROTHER.
26 Q. DOES HE HAVE ANY TATTOOS?
27 A. THE LAST TIME I SEEN HIM HE DIDN'T HAVE TATTOOS.
28 I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE NOW.
1656
1 Q. IS HE FAT? IS HE THIN? IS HE MUSCULAR?

2 A. NO. HE 1 S PRETTY MUCH LIKE MY SIZE.
3 Q. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEN HE WAS 13 YEARS OLD?
4 A. WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO GET DOWN FOR THE
5 NEIGHBORHOOD?
6 Q. YEAH.
7 A. YEAH I
8 Q. YOU WOULD BELIEVE A 13-YEAR-OLD IS DRIVING

9 AROUND SHOOTING AND KILLING PEOPLE AND MAKING STATEMENTS
10 LIKE THIS?
11 A. HE DIDN 1 T -- YEAH. WELL, HE TOLD ME. I SEEN
12 HOMIES RIDE YOUNGER THAN THAT.
13 Q. YOU WERE 15 AT THAT TIME, RIGHT?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. AND YOU 1 RE THE ONE GOING AROUND DOING BACKGROUND
16 CHECKS ON NEW INITIATES?
17 A. 1
IF I M FROM MY NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU WANT TO BE FROM
18 MY HOOD -- I JUST DON 1 T WANT SOME RANDOM GUY COMING INTO
19 MY HOOD, IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I 1 M GOING.
1
20 Q. SO YOU RE TELLING ME A 15-YEAR-OLD HAS A SAY
21 OVER WHO GOES IN AND OUT OF GANGS?
22 A. YEAH. IF YOU PUT IN WORK, YOU DO WHATEVER YOU
23 WANT.
24 Q. WHAT KIND OF WORK DO YOU PUT IN?
1 1
25 A. IT REALLY DOESN T MATTER. WE RE NOT TALKING
26 ABOUT ME. WE 1 RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE.
27 Q. WELL, YOU 1 RE HERE TODAY, SO WE 1 RE TALKING ABOUT
28 YOU, MR. MATTHEWS. WHAT KIND OF WORK DO YOU PUT IN FOR
1657
1 YOUR GANG?
2 A. WHATEVER IT NEEDS.
3 Q. STEAL CARS?
4 A. WHATEVER.
5 Q. YOU GOT A CONVICTION FOR IT.
6 A. THAT'S WHY I'M IN HERE.
7 Q. YOU TRIED TO BEAT UP PEOPLE.
8 A. OKAY.
9 Q. YOU FAILED.
10 A. RIGHT.
11 Q. YOU GOT A CONVICTION FOR IT.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. WHAT'S OMAR'S MONIKER?
16 A. "LITTLE MUERTO."
17 Q. LITTLE MARCO?
18 A. LITTLE MUERTO.
19 Q. DOES THAT MEAN "DEAD MAN"? IS THAT A YES?
20 A. YEAH.
21 THE COURT: M-U-E-R-T-0? MUERTO? IS THAT WHAT I
22 HEARD?
23 MR. TROCHA: "MUERTO" IS WHAT I HEARD AS WELL.
25 IS THAT IT, "LITTLE MUERTO"?
28 \\
1658
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO ANDRES WASN'T LITJLE MUERTO, CORRECT?
A. HMM-MM.
Q. YOU HAVE TO SAY "YES" OR "N0. 11
SHE'S WRITING IT
DOWN.
A.
Q.

15
18 Q. THESE STATEMENTS YOU HEARD FROM ANDRES LOPEZ
19 ABOUT SHOOTINGS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, YOU DIDN'T
20 BELIEVE HIM, DID YOU?
21 A. NO, NOT UNTIL -- AT FIRST IT WAS LIKE WHATEVER,
22 UNTIL THE OTHER GIRL WHO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WE INVITED
23 TOLD ME, "NAH, HE NEVER BEEN RIDING. HE NEVER DONE WHAT
11
24 HE SAID, SO I STOPPED BELIEVING HIM.
25 Q. WAS ANDRES TRYING TO,GET A NICKNAME?
26 A. WELL, HE WAS CLAIMING TO BE BABY MUERTO AT THAT
27 TIME.
28 Q. HE WAS CLAIMING BE TO BIG MUERTO.
1659
1 A. "BABY."
2 Q. "BABY MUERTO"?
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. AND THAT'S SPANISH FOR?
5 A. "BABY DEAD MAN."
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING.. FURTHER .
8
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU SEE HIM CLAIM IT?
12 A. HOW MANY TIMES? HOW MANY TIMES I SEE HIM
13 CLAIMING? WELL, WE USED TO GO OVER THERE TO PICK UP HIS
14 BROTHER. HE'D TRY TO GO WITH US. WE'D TELL HIM WE'D COME
15 PICK HIM UP LATER, BUT WE'D NEVER GO PICK HIM UP.
16 Q. PICK UP HIS BROTHER AT HIS HOUSE?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. WHERE'S HIS HOUSE?
19 A. IN SOUTHEAST.
20 Q. WHERE?
21 A. OFF OF NATIONAL.
22 Q. WHERE?
23 A. OFF OF NATIONAL.
24 Q. NATIONAL'S A PRETTY LONG STREET, MR. MATTHEWS.
25 WHERE?
26 A. OFF OF NATIONAL, LIKE I SAID.
27 Q. CAN'T GIVE US A BLOCK?
28 A. BY 40th.
1660
1 Q. HOW OLD WAS OMAR AT THE TIME?

2 A. WE'RE THE SAME AGE.
3 Q. YOU AND OMAR ARE THE SAME AGE?
4 A. (NODS HEAD.)
6 A. YES.
7 Q. YOU'RE SAYING THAT HE HUNG OUT WITH OMAR THE
8 WHOLE TIME?
9 A. AT THE HOUSE.
10 Q. BECAUSE THEY'RE BROTHERS, RIGHT?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. HOW MANY TIMES DID HE HANG OUT WITH YOU UP IN
13 THE CITY HEIGHTS LAND?
14 A. HE PROBABLY WENT A COUPLE TIMES, ONCE OR TWICE.
15 Q. ONCE OR TWICE? THAT'S IT?
16 A. WHEN I WAS KICKING IT. HE DIDN'T REALLY LIKE
17 KICKING IT LIKE THAT. WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE HIM KICKING
18 RIGHT THERE.
19 Q. BUT YOU WERE KICKING IT DOWN IN SHELLTOWN?
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. BUT I THOUGHT YOU WO~LD GET SMASHED ON SITE IF
22 YOU WERE KICKING IT DOWN IN SHELLTOWN.
23 A. LIKE IF I WAS TO COME THROUGH, THEY COME
24 THROUGH. THEY COULD CARE LESS. I LIVE DOWN THE STREET.
25 Q. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT A BIG AFRICAN-AMERICAN
26 CLAIMING A HISPANIC GANG FOR ALL TO KNOW, THAT IT WAS COOL
27 FOR YOU TO HANG OUT IN SHELLTOWN AND NOTHING EVER HAPPENED
28 TO YOU?
1661
1 A. NO, IT DID. LIKE YOU JUST SAID, I JUST CAME ON

2 A CASE FROM SHELLTOWN.
3 Q. NO, YOU CAME ON A CASE FROM O.E.K.,
4 MR. MATTHEWS.
5 A. NO, NO, I DIDN'T.
6 Q. 844 WEST IS NOWHERE NEAR SHELLTOWN.
7 A. WERE YOU THERE?
8 Q. I OWN A MAP, MR. MATTHEWS. IS 844 WEST --
9 A. WERE YOU THERE?
11 THE COURT: ONE MOMENT. ONE MOMENT. THE QUESTION IS
12 GOING TO BE ASKED BY MR. TROCHA. AND THAT QUESTION IS?
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. 844 WEST IS NOWHERE NEAR SHELLTOWN, IS IT?
15 A. YES, IT IS.
16 Q. IT'S IN O.E.K.
17 A. WHAT'S IN O.E.K.? WHERE IS THAT?
18 Q. 844 WEST.
19 A. YOU SAY YOU HAVE A MAP. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAP,
20 IT'S IN SHELLTOWN.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
26 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 265, MR. MATTHEWS. SEE WHERE
27 46th STREET IS?
28 A. MM-HMM.
1662
1 Q. 48th IS OVER HERE (INDICATING), CORRECT?

2 A. WHOSE SIDE IS ON 48th?
3 Q. WELL, HERE'S 48th STREET, CORRECT? THAT'S ON
4 THE OTHER SIDE OF THE 805.
5 A. OKAY.
6 Q. HERE'S LOGAN AVENUE, .. CORRECT?
7 A. MM-HMM.
8 THE COURT: YES?
9 THE WITNESS: YES.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. WEST IS EAST OF THE 805, IS IT NOT?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. YOU SEE THE BLACK LINES UP THERE SHOWING YOU
14 WHERE SHELLTOWN IS?
15 A. YEAH. WHICH ONES? THE WHOLE THING?
16 Q. YEAH.
17 A. YEAH.
..
18 Q. SO IF WEST STREET IS ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE
19 805, IT'S NOT IN SHELLTOWN, IS IT, MR. MATTHEWS?
20 A. YES, IT IS IN SHELLTOWN. LOOK, YOU SAID THE
21 BLACK LINES. WHICH BLACK LINES ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
22 Q. THESE BLACK LINES HERE (INDICATING). NOT THE
23 DOTTED ONES, THESE ONES (INDICATING), CORRECT?
24 A. OKAY. WHERE YOU'RE POINTING AT, I LIVE IN
25 LITTLE SHELLTOWN AND THAT'S CONSIDERED SHELLTOWN.
26 Q. THIS IS WEST RIGHT HERE, RIGHT BY THE HENDERSON
27 RECREATION CENTER.
28 A. OKAY.
1663
1 Q. THIS IS THE BOUNDARY OF SHELLTOWN (INDICATING).

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES
3 THE WITNESS: ACTUALLY, NO, IT'S NOT.
4 THE COURT: HOLD ON ONE MOMENT. ASK IT AS A
5 QUESTION, PLEASE.
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
7 Q. SEE THIS SOLID LINE? IS THAT THE BOUNDARY OF
8 SHELLTOWN AS YOU KNOW IT?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. WHAT IS THE BOUNDARYOF SHELLTOWN AS YOU KNOW
11 IT?
12 A. TO EUCLID.
13 Q. ALL THE WAY TO EUCLID?
14 A. MM-HMM.
15 Q. ALL THE WAY INTO WHERE LINCOLN PARK IS?
16 A. YEAH.
17 Q. WHERE SOUTHEAST LOCOS IS?
18 A. MM-HMM.
19 Q. AND RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE IS WHAT O.E.K. CLAIMS,
20 CORRECT?
21 A. IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT
.. THAT WAY.
22 Q. YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH O.E.K. GANG MEMBERS
23 WHEN YOU WERE CAUGHT WITH YOUR CRIME, YES?
24 A. THEY'RE NOT FROM O.E.K.
25 Q. AND YOU SAY YOU GO DOWN TO THE HEART OF
26 SHELLTOWN, IN THIS AREA DOWN HERE (INDICATING)?
27 A. YOU SEE THAT STREET THAT SAYS "KEELER AVENUE"?
28 Q. WHICH ONE?
1664
1 A. THAT SAYS "KEELER AVENUE."

2 Q. HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT?
3 A. IT'S K-E-E-L-E-R.
4 Q. KEELER. RIGHT HERE (INDICATING)?
5 A. YEAH. THAT'S WHERE I LIVE AT. THAT'S SHELLTOWN
6 RIGHT THERE, SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE TRYING TO
7 TELL ME WHERE SHELLTOWN IS AND WHERE IT'S NOT. YOU DON'T
8 LIVE THERE. I LIVE THERE.
9 Q. SHELLTOWN, THE GANG, OR SHELLTOWN, THE TOWN?
10 A. SHELLTOWN, THE GANG.
11 Q. YOU'RE SAYING SHELLTOWN LIVES THERE, YOU CLAIM
12 ANOTHER GANG, AND THEY NEVER MESS WITH YOU?
..
13 A. OH, I GET INTO IT ALL THE TIME.
14 Q. WHEN?
15 A. WHEN? DO YOU -- ARE YOU WITH ME ALL THE TIME?
16 NO, YOU'RE NOT. YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN I GET INTO IT. YOU
17 CAN'T SIT HERE AND TRY TO TELL ME IF I GET INTO IT WITH
18 THESE GUYS OR NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT WITH ME.
19 Q. ARE YOU GETTING SMASHED ON SITE ALL THE TIME?
20 A. I GET DOWN ALMOST EVERY DAY.
21 Q. NOT FOR THE LAST YEAR AT LEAST.
22 A. FOR THE LAST YEAR? WHEN I GOT OUT IN
23 NOVEMBER
25 ANYTHING FURTHER, MR. TROCHA?
26 MR. TROCHA: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
1665
1 THE COURT: MAY THIS WITNESS BE EXCUSED?

3 THE COURT: MR. WILLIAMS [SIC], THANK YOU, SIR.
4 PLEASE FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS OF THE BAILIFF. GOOD DAY TO
5 YOU.
6 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN) IT'S GOING TO BE A LONG
7 LUNCH. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS
8 ATTENTION TO THE CASE. I ASK ONCE AGAIN YOUR INDULGENCE
9 IN NOT LETTING ANY FRUSTRATION YOU FEEL WITH THE FITS AND
10 STARTS AND OCCASIONAL DELAYS TO INTERFERE WITH YOUR
11 CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS CASE.
12 PLEASE LEAVE THE PENS AND NOTEBOOKS ON THE
13 CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. LET US RECONVENE
14 THIS AFTERNOON. THANK YOU. SAFE LUNCH. WATCH THOSE
15 CURBS.
~

19 THE COURT: ALL JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM. ALL
20 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM.
21 JUST HELP ME OUT WITH THE BATTING ORDER. WE'RE
22 BACK TO DETECTIVE GASCA AT 1:30?
23 MR. TROCHA: YES.
24 THE COURT: WILL THAT BE THE PEOPLE'S LAST WITNESS?
25 MR. TROCHA: YES.
26 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU HAVE YOUR WITNESS
27 HERE AT 1:30 ALSO?
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BARLOS. I THINK HE'S 10 MINUTES.
1666
1 COUNSEL?
2 MR. TROCHA: SURE.
3 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE CONTINUE WHERE WE ARE AND
4 PUT MR. BARLOS ON FIRST. I SAY THIS ONLY FOR REASONS
5 HAVING TO DO WITH -- I THINK WE WILL HAVE LESS DIFFICULTY
6 OBTAINING DETECTIVE GASCA'S COOPERATION IN STANDING BY
7 THAN PERHAPS SOME OF THE OTHER WITNESSES IN THIS CASE.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, IF THAT WORKS FOR YOU, WE'LL
9 PUT YOUR WITNESS ON AT 1:30.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BEAUTIFUL.
11 THE COURT: THANK YOU ALL. WE'LL BE IN RECESS UNTIL
12 THEN.
13 (THE LUNCH RECESS WAS TAKEN AT 11:22 A.M.)
14 * * *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
1667
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA. TUESDAY, APRIL 12, 2011

2 1:30 P.M.
3
5 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
6 THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL
7 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
8 CONTINUING IN THE VEIN OF OUR FLEXIBILITY IN THE
9 RECEIPT OF TESTIMONY, WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE THAT TRIPLE
10 UNDERLINE DRAWN UNDERNEATH DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY AND
11 HEAR FROM ONE MORE DEFENSE WITNESS, MR. CARLOS ALVARA, AND
12 THEN WE'LL GET BACK TO DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY.
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CALL YOUR WITNESS.
'
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. THE DEFENSE CALLS
15 CARLOS ALVARA.
16
17 CARLOS E. ALVARA,
20
21 THE WITNESS: I SWEAR.
23 WITNESS STAND.
24 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME IF YOU WOULD,
'
25 PLEASE, SIR. GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU.
26 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU, TOO, SIR.
27 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
1668

2 THE WITNESS: CARLOS ENRIQUE ALVARA. ALVARA,
3 A-L-V-A-R-A.
4 THE COURT: AND SPELL ENRIQUE FOR THE COURT REPORTER,
5 PLEASE.
6 THE WITNESS: E-R- -- WAI~. -N-E-U-R-I- -- WAIT.
7 THE COURT: IS IT POSSIBLE IT'S E-N-R-I-Q-U-E?
8 THE WITNESS: E-N -- I DON'T KNOW. IT'S, LIKE,
9 SPELLED WEIRD.
10 THE COURT: IT'S SPANISH "ENRIQUE"?
12 THE COURT: OKAY. PHONETICALLY E-N-R-I-Q-U-E. THANK
13 YOU, AND, I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T MEAN TO EMBARRASS YOU, SIR.
16
.
19 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. -- IS IT ALVARA?
20 A. YES, SIR.
21 Q. WHAT ELSE DO YOU GO BY BESIDES "CARLOS ALVARA"?
22 A. BARLOS.
23 Q. BARLOS?
24 A. YEAH.
25 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, MR. ALVARA: DO YOU KNOW
26 SOMEBODY NAMED ANDRES LOPEZ?
27 A. YEAH. I MET HIM IN JUVIE.
28 Q. WHAT ELSE DOES HE GO BY?
1669
1 A. "STALKER."
2 Q. WHEN DID YOU MEET HIM?
3 A. I MET HIM IN OCTOBER, LIKE, OF 2009.
4 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN MAYBE NOVEMBER?
5 A. NOVEMBER, YEAH, AROUND THERE.
6 Q. IT WAS AROUND THAT TIME?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. WHERE DO YOU LIVE? NEIGHBORHOOD. DON'T GIVE ME
9 THE ADDRESS.
10 A. 36th STREET.
11 Q. IS THAT IN SHELLTOWN?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. ARE YOU A MEMBER OF A GANG?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. WERE YOU?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WERE YOU HANGING OUT WITH A CERTAIN GANG AT SOME
18 TIME?
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. WHAT GANG?
21 A. SKYLINE PARK.
22 Q. SKYLINE?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. YOU SAID YOUR NAME IS BARLOS, RIGHT?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW ANDRES LOPEZ?
27 A. YEAH, JUST FROM JUVIE.
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING THE WITNESS, YOUR
1670
1 HONOR.
4 Q. ON THIS DEFENSE EXHIBIT SS, MR. ALVARA -- LET ME
5 ASK YOU THIS: ON SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008, WERE YOU AT A
6 PARK THAT NIGHT?
7 A. NO, SIR.
9 A. NO, SIR.
10 Q. DID YOU KNOW ABOUT A SHOOTING THAT HAPPENED IN
11 OCEAN VIEW PARK?
12 A. NO, SIR.
13 Q. SO WERE YOU PRESENT AT THAT SHOOTING?
14 A. I WASN'T PRESENT, SIR.
15 Q. SO IF I WROTE AN "N" ON THE EXHIBIT IN RED,
16 EXHIBIT SS, INDICATING YOU WEREN'T THERE, WOULD THAT BE
17 ACCURATE?
18 A. YES, SIR.
19 Q. I'M WRITING A PARENTHESES "N."
20 THAT IS HOW YOU SPELL YOUR NICKNAME, RIGHT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. B-A-R-L-0-S?
23 A. YES.
26 CROSS?
27 \\
28 \\
1671
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. YOU SAID YOU'RE CURRENTLY LIVING ON
4 36th STREET?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. WHERE WERE YOU LIVING IN 2009 BEFORE YOU WENT TO
7 JUVIE?
8 A. I WAS LIVING ON 38th.
9 Q. THAT WAS AT SOUTH 38TH STREET, RIGHT?
10 A. YES, SOUTH 38TH.
11 Q. IS THERE ALSO AN ADDRESS OFF OF FRANCIS STREET?
12 A. YEAH. THAT'S THE CURRENT ADDRESS NOW.
13 Q. THAT YOU CURRENTLY LIVE IN?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. THOSE ARE ALL IN SHELLTOWN, RIGHT?
16 A. YEAH, THAT'S IN SHELLTOWN.
17 Q. DO YOU HANG OUT WITH, PEOPLE FROM SHELLTOWN?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. YOU ALSO HANG OUT DOWN ON DELTA STREET, RIGHT?
20 A. DELTA STREET, YEAH. THAT'S WHERE MY AUNT LIVES.
21 Q. THE LAST TIME WHEN YOU WERE HERE IN COURT BEFORE
22 THAT HEARING, YOU WERE SAYING YOU HUNG OUT WITH THE
23 SKYLINE GANGS BECAUSE YOU LIVE OUT IN -- CLOSE TO EAST
24 COUNTY, RIGHT?
25 A. DURING THAT 2008 -- DURING 2008 I WAS LIVING IN
26 EL CAJON AND ALL THAT EAST COUNTY PART AND THEN LIKE --
27 LIKE ENCANTO.
28 Q. WHEN DID YOU MOVE TO SHELLTOWN?
1672
1 A. WHEN I MOVED TO SHELLTOWN? LIKE 2009.

2 Q. AND THE FIRST TIME AND THE ONLY TIME YOU MET
3 ANDRES WAS WHILE IN JUVIE?
4 A. YEAH, JUVENILE HALL.
5 Q. WHAT WERE YOU IN JUVIE FOR?
6 A. I WAS CAUGHT WITH VICODINS AT SCHOOL, SELLING,
7 POSSESSION.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. IMPROPER IMPEACHMENT.
10 SELLING YOU SAID, SIR?
13 MR. TROCHA: NOTHING FURTHER. THANK YOU.
18 THE COURT: MR. ALVARA, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
19 COURT, SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT
20 YOUR TESTIMONY OR ABOUT THE TRIAL WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN
21 INVESTIGATORS UNTIL WE FINISH THE TRIAL, OKAY?
25 THE COURT: RETURNING TO THE PEOPLE'S CASE.
26 MR. TROCHA: THE PEOPLE RECALL DETECTIVE GASCA.
27 THE COURT: DETECTIVE GASCA WILL BE RECALLED. THANK
28 YOU.
1673
1 DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA I
2 CALLED ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE. , HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY

3 DULY SWORN, RESUMED TESTIFYING AS FOLLOWS:
4
5 THE COURT: DETECTIVE GASCA, YOU WERE PREVIOUSLY

6 SWORN. YOU'RE UNDER THE SAME OATH YOU TOOK THE OTHER DAY.
7 THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.
8 THE WITNESS: NO PROBLEM.
9 THE COURT: YOU MAY RESUME THE WITNESS STAND.
10 MR. TROCHA?
12
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. DETECTIVE GASCA, WE WERE JUST -- WE LEFT OFF AT
16 A PART RIGHT BEFORE TALKING ABOUT GRAFFITI AND SHELLTOWN
17 AND HISPANIC STREET GANGS IN GENERAL. WHAT ROLE DOES
18 GRAFFITI PLAY, IF ANY, IN A HISPANIC STREET GANG IN
19 SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA?
20 A. GOOD AFTERNOON. GRAFFITI PLAYS A GREAT ROLE IN
21 GANGS. GRAFFITI IS WHAT I SEE AS A NEWSPAPER FOR THAT
22 GANG. IT WILL TELL ME A LOT OF THE STUFF THAT IS GOING ON
23 IN THAT GANG, WHO ARE THE MEMBERS OF THAT GANG. OFTEN
24 THEY LIST THE MONIKERS OR THE NICKNAMES, WHAT THEY GO BY
25 IN THE GANG OR AS THEY ARE KNOWN AS A SPECIFIC MONIKER IN
26 THAT GANG. THEY LIST THE NAME OF THE GANG. THEY LIST THE
27 RIVAL GANGS. THEY CROSS OUT THE RIVAL GANGS.
28 ALSO IT'S USED TO MARK A TERRITORY IN THE
1674
1 NEIGHBORHOOD THAT THEY CLAIM. THEY'LL -- YOU'LL FIND IT

2 ON THEIR OWN TERRITORY, ON THEIR OWN COMMUNITY, IN THE
3 ALLEYS, STREETS, PARKS, STREET SIGNS, HOUSES, PLACES THAT
4 ARE IDENTIFIED BY THEMSELVES AS THE HANGOUTS.
5 THESE PLACES, THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE A LIST OF
~
6 NAMES, AND USUALLY WHEN YOU SEE A LIST OF NAMES, IT'S THAT
7 THOSE NAMES THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THAT GRAFFITI ARE THE
8 NAMES OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE PRESENT WHEN THAT GRAFFITI
9 WAS WRITTEN.
10 ALSO IT'S USED AS AN INSULT AGAINST RIVAL GANG
11 MEMBERS WHEN IT'S TAGGED IN THEIR TERRITORY, AND IT'S ALSO
12 IN -- AND IT'S CROSSED OUT. THEY GO TO A RIVAL AREA AND
13 THEY CROSS OUT THEIR OWN OF THE RIVAL GANG NAME, AND
14 THEY'LL PUT OR WRITE THE NAME OF THE GANG THEY ARE
15 CLAIMING. THAT'S A SIGN OF DISRESPECT. IT'S A WAY TO
16 INSULT THAT GANG AND TO SHOW THEM THAT THEY HAVE CONTROL
17 OVER THEM EVEN IN THEIR TERRITORY.
18 Q. WITHIN SAN DIEGO, IS GRAFFITI PRIMARILY A TOOL
19 OF HISPANIC STREET GANGS?
20 A. NO. IT'S ALSO A -- IT IS ALSO USED -- BEING
21 USED BY BLACK GANGS AND YOU SEE IT IN ORIENTAL GANGS ALSO.
22 Q. IF YOU WERE TO COMPARE THE THREE, WHO USES THE
23 GRAFFITI THE MOST?
24 A. HISPANICS AND BLACKS.
25 Q. IS THERE ALSO A ROLE -- DO THE GANGS ALSO USE
26 SOCIAL MEDIAS SUCH AS FACEBOOK, TWITTER, MYSPACE, THINGS
27 OF THAT NATURE?
28 A. YES.
1675
1 Q. HOW SO?
2 A. ONE OF THE EXAMPLES THAT I CAN GIVE YOU IS THE
3 MYSPACE WEBSITE. MYSPACE IS A FREE WEBSITE THAT YOU CAN
4 CREATE YOUR OWN PAGE. YOU CAN IDENTIFY BY A NAME, BY THE
5 NAME OF YOUR GANG IF YOU SO WANT TO OR YOU CAN IDENTIFY BY
6 YOUR REAL NAME.
7 YOU CAN DOWNLOAD PICTURES OF YOURSELF, PICTURES
8 OF YOUR FRIENDS, PICTURES OF THE AREAS THAT YOU WANT TO
9 REPRESENT. YOU CAN ACCEPT AND HAVE FRIENDS TO BECOME PART
10 OF THAT SOCIAL NETWORKING. THERE'S UNLIMITED WAYS OF
11 COMMUNICATING.
12 YOU CAN EXCHANGE MESSAGES, INSTANT MESSAGES, AND
13 YOU CAN ALSO SEND THEM EMAIL MESSAGES, AND THAT PERSON
14 WILL READ THEM AND HAS THE CAPABILITY OF ANSWERING.
15 Q. AS A DETECTIVE IN THE GANG UNIT, DO YOU MONITOR
16 MYSPACE AND THESE SITES?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. HOW DO YOU MONITOR THESE SITES?
19 A. I OFTEN, DEPENDING ON WHAT GANG I AM
20 INVESTIGATING AT THE TIME OR MAYBE A SPECIFIC CRIME AND I
21 KNOW A MONIKER, I USE THE WEBSITE TO RESEARCH THE NAME,
22 THE MONIKER, THE GANG, AND I OFTEN COME UP WITH A LIST OF
23 POSSIBLES.
24 I CHECK ALL THOSE POSSIBLES, THEIR FRIENDS, AND
25 SOMETIMES THAT'S THE WAY I FIND PICTURES AND HAVE BEEN
26 ABLE TO PUT -- RECOGNIZE THOSE PICTURES AS THE PEOPLE THAT
27 I'M LOOKING FOR OR ASSOCIATE THEM WITH A NAME THAT I KNOW.
28 Q. DO YOU HAVE AN ACCOUNT WITH MYSPACE?
1676
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IS IT UNDER "DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA"?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. WHAT IS IT UNDER, A DIFFERENT NAME OR A
5 PSEUDONYM?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHY IS THAT?
8 A. THAT IS BECAUSE IN MY MYSPACE ACCOUNT, I AM
9 NOT -- IT'S NOT A PICTURE OF ME, IT'S A PICTURE OF A VERY
10 YOUNG, ATTRACTIVE LADY THAT WILL REQUEST FRIENDSHIP WITH
11 THOSE GANG MEMBERS IN THE AREAS THAT I WORK, AND WHEN THEY
12 ACCEPT ME AS A FRIEND, I WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THEIR
13 ACCOUNTS AND I CAN LOOK AT THE PICTURES AND INSIDE
14 COMMUNICATIONS, SOME OF THEM, AND FRIENDS.
15 Q. FOR THOSE OF US UNFAMILIAR WITH HOW MYSPACE
16 WORKS, HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT SETTING UP YOUR ACCOUNT?
17 A. I'M NOT VERY WISE ABOUT COMPUTERS, BUT WE DO
18 HAVE A VOLUNTEER IN THAT UNIT WHO WAS A YOUNG -- WE USED
19 TO HAVE HER. IT'S A YOUNG LADY WHO CREATED MY MYSPACE
20 ACCOUNT. SHE GAVE ME A NAME. SHE DOWNLOADED SOME
21 PICTURES AS PORTRAYING ME OR THE PERSON THAT I CLAIM TO
22 BE. SHE ALSO PUT SOME MUSIC, SOME PICTURES OF THINGS THAT
23 SHOW THAT I'M INTERESTED IN GANG ACTIVITY.
24 Q. IN TERMS OF WHEN YOU -- YOU HAVE TO SIGN INTO
25 THIS ACCOUNT?
26 A. YES, YOU DO HAVE TO CREATE AN ACCOUNT. YOU HAVE
27 TO SIGN IN WITH A NAME AND ALSO WITH A PASSWORD.
28 Q. SO ONE WOULD HAVE TO KNOW THE USER NAME AND THE
1677
1 PASSWORD TO ACCESS YOUR ACCOUNT OR YOUR PAGE?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. ONCE YOU'VE SIGNED IN, HOW WOULD YOUR PAGE LOOK
4 TO OTHER PEOPLE, MEANING IS YOUR NAME THERE? IS A PICTURE
5 THERE? HOW WOULD THEY KNOW IT'S YOU?
\
6 A. IF MY PAGE IS NOT PRIVATE, THE PERSON --

7 SOMEBODY RESEARCHING FOR MY NAME WILL BE ABLE TO SEE MY
8 PICTURE, MY NAME, MY POINTS OF INTEREST, MY HOBBIES OR
9 WHATEVER I WROTE IN ABOUT ME.
10 THEY ALSO CAN SEE MY FRIENDS, THE MESSAGES OF MY
11 FRIENDS AND ME, THE TIMES WHERE THEY LOG ON AND THE TIMES
12 WHERE THEY SEND ME THOSE MESSAGES.
13 IF MY MYSPACE ACCOUNT IS PRIVATE, THEY CAN STILL
14 SEE THE PROFILE OF MY PAGE AND THEY CAN SEE THE PICTURE OF
15 ME, MY NAME. IF I PUT THAT I'M FROM SAN DIEGO, THEY WILL
16 SEE WHERE I'M FROM, AND I MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO SOME OF MY
..
17 FRIENDS TO THE EXTENT TO LOOK AT ALL THE PICTURES
18 DEPENDING ON WHETHER MY FRIENDS ARE PRIVATE OR NOT.
19 Q. WHEN YOU SAY YOUR "FRIENDS," WHAT DO YOU MEAN IN
20 TERMS OF MYSPACE?
21 A. THE WAY THAT IT IS IN MYSPACE, YOU GATHER ALL
22 THOSE FRIENDS. THOSE FRIENDS, THEY ALSO HAVE AN ACCOUNT
23 WITH MYSPACE. THEY HAVE TO REQUEST TO BE MY FRIEND.
24 ONCE I SEE THAT REQUEST FROM JOSE, AND I WANT
25 JOSE TO BECOME MY FRIEND, I ACCEPT HIM AS MY FRIEND AND
26 NOW HE'S PART OF THAT WEB, THE SOCIAL NETWORKING THAT I
27 HAVE, AND HE WILL BE ON MY PAGE AS ONE OF MY FRIENDS.
28 AND THE SAME WAY IF I WANT TO BECOME FRIENDS
1678
1 WITH SOMEBODY ELSE, I HAVE TO SEND THEM A REQUEST AND THEY

2 EVENTUALLY ADMIT ME AS A FRIEND AND I BECOME ONE OF THEIR
3 FRIENDS ON THE LIST.
4 Q. THESE REQUESTS, ARE THEY KIND OF LIKE MINI
5 EMAILS SENT DIRECTLY TO THAT OTHER PERSON'S ACCOUNT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHEN YOU HAVE A FRIEND AND YOU'VE ACCEPTED THEM
8 AS A FRIEND, CAN YOU SEE ON A PAGE WITHIN YOUR ACCOUNT
9 YOUR GROUP OF FRIENDS?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHAT CAN YOU SEE INDICATING THAT THIS PERSON IS
12 A FRIEND?
13 A. YOU CAN SEE THEIR PROFILE PICTURE IF THEY DO
14 HAVE A PICTURE OR A DRAWING AND THE NAME THEY GO BY ON
15 THAT PAGE.
16 Q. ARE YOU ALSO ABLE ON MYSPACE TO WRITE OR POST
17 MESSAGES ON OTHER PEOPLE'S PROFILES?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
20 A. LET'S SAY I SEE ONE OF MY FRIENDS HAD A PICTURE
21 AND I KNOW THAT PERSON, THAT ISN'T THEIR PICTURE, AND I
22 WANT TO MAKE A COMMENT ABOUT THAT PICTURE. I CAN LOG ONTO
23 MY WEBSITE. I CAN CLICK ON THAT PERSON'S PICTURE, AND I
24 CAN TYPE A MESSAGE. THAT MESSAGE WILL BE INSTANTLY SENT
25 TO THAT WEB PAGE AND IT WILL APPEAR IN THAT PERSON'S UNDER
26 THAT PICTURE.
27 Q. WITH THAT MESSAGE, ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE IN ANY
28 WAY OF WHO WROTE THAT MESSAGE?
1679
1 A. YES, MY NAME AS IT APPEARS IN MY ACCOUNT, IT

2 WILL BE DISPLAYED AS A PERSON IHAT SENT THE MESSAGE.
3 Q. IS IT THE SAME KIND OF PICTURE AND NAME AND THEN
4 A MESSAGE ALONG WITH IT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AGAIN, DOES THIS ALL RELY ON WHETHER OR NOT THE
7 ACCOUNT IS PRIVATE OR PUBLIC?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. ON SOME PRIVATE ACCOUNTS OR PRIVATE ACCOUNTS, IF
10 YOU'RE NOT A FRIEND OF THAT PERSON, ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE
11 PICTURES, MESSAGES AND THINGS LIKE THAT?
12 A. I'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE SOME OF THEIR FRIENDS'
13 PICTURES AND I HAVE NOT BEEN A~LE TO SEE THAT PERSON'S
14 OTHER THAN HIS PROFILE, THEIR OWN PERSONAL ALBUMS I HAVE
15 NOT BEEN ABLE TO OPEN.
16 Q. IS IT SOMETHING YOU CAN CUSTOMIZE DEPENDING ON
17 HOW MUCH YOU WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO SEE?
18 A. YES. WHEN YOU CREATE YOUR ACCOUNT, I HAVE THE
19 OPTION TO SAY I DO WANT ONLY MY FRIENDS TO HAVE ACCESS TO
20 MY WEBSITE. I CAN HAVE THE FRIENDS OF MY FRIENDS TO HAVE
21 ACCESS TO THAT WEBSITE, OR I CAN BE OPEN TO EVERYBODY.
22 Q. NOW, UNDERSTANDING WE STARTED THIS DISCUSSION BY
23 YOU EXPLAINING HOW YOU HAVE A FAKE MYSPACE PAGE, THERE ARE
24 FAKE PAGES OUT THERE, CORRECT?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. THERE ARE ALSO REAL PAGES OUT THERE; IS THAT
27 CORRECT?
28 A. YES.
1680
1 Q. WHEN YOU'RE DOING YOUR INVESTIGATIONS OR GAINING

2 INTELLIGENCE ON SOME GANG MEMBERS, ARE YOU ABLE TO
3 DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE TWO?
4 A. I CANNOT. THE ONLY WAY THAT SOMETIMES I CAN
5 CONFIRM IS IF I KNOW THE PERSON, I KNOW THAT THAT
6 PERSON -- THE WAY HE LOOKS BECAUSE I HAVE CONTACT WITH
7 THEM; I CAN ASSOCIATE THAT PERSON WITH THE PICTURE OF AND
8 IDENTIFY THEM BY A PICTURE.
9 I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ALL THE INFORMATION.
10 SOMETIMES I CAN MATCH THEIR DATE OF BIRTHS AND I KNOW THE
11 DATE OF BIRTHS OF THAT PERSON THAT HAD OPENED THAT ACCOUNT
12 AND SOMETIMES I CANNOT VERIFY.
13 Q. ON SOME OF THESE PAGES, THOUGH, OTHER THAN THE
14 PROFILE PICTURE AND THE PERSON'S NAME, IT SOUNDS LIKE
15 THERE ARE OTHER PAGES WHERE THEY POSTED PICTURES ON THEIR
16 ACCOUNT; IS THAT CORRECT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THOSE PICTURES, ARE YOU
19 ABLE TO SEE IF THE PICTURE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR IS IN THOSE
20 PICTURES?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. ARE YOU ALSO ABLE TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE
23 PICTURES WITH THEM?
24 A. IF THEY HAVE THOSE PICTURES WITH PEOPLE THEY
25 ASSOCIATE OR PEOPLE THEY TAKE PICTURES WITH, I WILL BE
26 ABLE TO SEE THEM IF THEY'RE OPEN FOR FRIENDS TO SEE.
27 Q. SO YOU CAN SEE PHOTOGRAPHS OF AN INDIVIDUAL THAT
28 YOU HAVE AN INTEREST IN, AND MAYBE THEY'RE WITH PEOPLE YOU
1681
1 ALSO KNOW AS WELL?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. THEY MAY ALSO BE WITH PEOPLE THAT YOU DON'T KNOW
4 AND YOU CAN FIND OUT LATER WHO THEY ARE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. IS THIS A TOOL THAT YOU USE AS A DETECTIVE TO
7 KIND OF SEE ASSOCIATIONS WITHIN SUSPECTED GANG SETS?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DETECTIVE, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HISPANIC
10 STREET GANGS AND SHELLTOWN KIND OF IN GENERAL. I WANT TO
11 FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION, THOUGH, ONTO PARTICULAR DEFINITIONS
12 IN TERMS OF CRIMINAL STREET GANGS. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH
13 PENAL CODE SECTION 186.22?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT IS THAT SECTION?
16 A. PENAL CODE 186.22 DEFINES WHAT A GANG CRIME IS.
17 IT GIVES A DEFINITION FOR THE GANG CRIME. IT GIVES A LIST
18 OF SECTIONS -- I'M SORRY -- A LIST OF CRIMES THAT ARE
19 ASSOCIATED WITH THAT GANG ACTIVITY, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE
20 CHARGES THAT WE USE WHEN WE CHARGE GANG MEMBERS THAT HAVE
21 BEEN INVOLVED IN GANG-RELATED ACTIVITY.
22 Q. DOES IT GIVE A DEFINITION OF WHAT A CRIMINAL
23 STREET GANG IS?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT IS A CRIMINAL STREET GANG UNDER THIS
26 SECTION?
27 A. A CRIMINAL STREET GANG IS DEFINED IN THE PENAL
28 CODE AS A GROUP OF THREE OR MORE PEOPLE THAT SHARE A
1682
1 COMMON NAME, SIGN OR SYMBOL, THEY ASSOCIATE ON A REGULAR

..
2 BASIS, THEY ENGAGE IN A PATTERN OF CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR THAT
3 CREATES FEAR AND INTIMIDATION IN THAT COMMUNITY.
4 Q. DO THEY ALSO HAVE A PRIMARY ACTIVITY?
5 A. YES. THE PRIMARY ACTIVITY IS DEFINED ALSO UNDER
6 186.22, UNDER SECTION (E) OF THE PENAL CODE, AND IT GIVES
7 YOU A LIST OF 33 CRIMES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE MOST
8 COMMON CRIMES THAT GANG MEMBERS COMMIT.
9 Q. IS THIS IN ORDER TO DIFFERENTIATE CRIMINAL
10 STREET GANGS FROM, SAY, LIKE A GROUP OF PEOPLE OR A CAR
11 CLUB OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
12 A. CAN YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION.
13 Q. SURE. THIS DEFINITION APPLIES TO DEFINING A
14 GROUP OF PEOPLE AS A CRIMINAL STREET GANG; IS THAT
15 CORRECT?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. THIS ISN'T A SECTION WHEREIN BECAUSE THREE OR
18 MORE PEOPLE ASSOCIATE AND COMMIT A CRIME TOGETHER, THEN
19 THEY'RE THEREFORE LABELED A GANG?
20 A. YES, CORRECT. IT'S A WAY TO DEFINE WHAT A
21 SPECIFIC GANG IS, THE DEFINITION OF A STREET CRIMINAL
22 GANG.
23 Q. IN TERMS OF THE PRIMARY ACTIVITIES, ARE YOU ALSO
24 FAMILIAR WITH A TERM KNOWN AS "PREDICATE" OR "PREDICATE
11
25 CRIMES ?
26 A. YES. IN ORDER TO DOCUMENT A GANG AS A STREET
27 GANG, WE HAVE TO MEET THE CRITERIA -- OR WE HAVE TO SHOW
28 THAT THAT GANG HAS COMMITTED SERIOUS CRIMES AS DEFINED
1683
1 UNDER SECTION 186.22(E). PREDICATE CRIMES ARE CRIMES THAT

2 HAVE BEEN COMMITTED BY THAT SPECIFIC GANG, BY MEMBERS OF
3 THAT GANG.
4 Q. DID YOU REVIEW A SERIES OF PREDICATE CRIMES
5 PRIOR TO COMING IN TO TESTIFY TODAY?
..
6 A. YES.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. I'M GOING TO FIRST START OFF BY SHOWING YOU
11 WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 216. IT IS A
12 MULTIPAGE DOCUMENT WITH A BLUE BACKING ON IT. THE TITLE
13 OF IT IS "PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA VS. JOSE
14 CENDEJAS, .. C-E-N-D-E-J-A-S, COURT NO. CD208117. THE DATE
15 THE COMPLAINT WAS FILED IS FEBRUARY 4th, 2008.
16 IF YOU COULD TAKE A LOOK AT THAT, DETECTIVE, TO
.
17 FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH ITS CONTENTS.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. THIS IS A DOCUMENT THAT CHARGED MR. CENDEJAS
22 WITH A VARIETY OF OFFENSES, INCLUDING CARJACKING, ASSAULT
23 WITH A DEADLY WEAPON, VEHICLE THEFT AS WELL AS POSSESSION
24 OF A STOLEN VEHICLE, ALL OCCURRING ON OR ABOUT
25 JULY 22nd, 2007?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE FACTS THAT UNDERLIE
28 THIS CASE?
1684
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT ARE THEY?
3 A. IN THIS CASE CENDEJAS IS THE DEFENDANT OF THE
4 CASE AND HE IS A MEMBER OF THE SHELLTOWN GANG. THIS NIGHT
5 THE VICTIM HAD ARRIVED TO HIS HOUSE, HAD PARKED HIS CAR
6 OUTSIDE HIS APARTMENT COMPLEX AND REMAINED IN THE CAR
7 WHILE HE'S MAKING A PHONE CALL FROM HIS CELL PHONE. TWO
8 MALES APPROACHED THE CAR, ONE OF THEM BEING JOSE CENDEJAS,
9 APPROACHED THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE CAR AND DEMANDED THE
10 VICTIM TO GIVE THEM THE CAR. THE VICTIM WAS ON THE PHONE.
11 HE INITIALLY DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE SAYING.
12 AS THE GANG MEMBER -- AS CENDEJAS DID NOT SEE
13 ANY COMPLIANCE WITH THE VICTIM, HE LIFTED UP HIS SHIRT,
14 DISPLAYED A KNIFE AND TOLD HIM TO GIVE THEM THE CAR OR HE
15 WAS GOING TO GET KILLED. AT THIS TIME THE VICTIM, THE
16 DRIVER OF THE CAR, FEARED FOR HIS LIFE AND TOOK OFF
17 RUNNING OUT OF THE CAR, LEAVING THE CAR KEYS IN THE CAR
18 AND LEAVING THE AREA.
19 MR. CENDEJAS AND HIS COMPANIONS TOOK OFF IN THE
20 CAR, AND THEY WERE INVOLVED IN A SHORT PURSUIT WITH THE
..
21 POLICE AND LATER WERE IDENTIFIED. CENDEJAS WAS IDENTIFIED
22 AND CONVICTED OF THE CRIME.
23 Q. YOU SAID MR. CENDEJAS IS A MEMBER OF THE
24 SHELLTOWN GANG. IS HE SHELLTOWN 38 OR SHELLTOWN GAMMA?
25 A. HE DOES HAVE AFFILIATION WITH BOTH. HE DOES
26 CLAIM GAMMA AND ALSO HAS AFFILIATION WITH 38th AND HAS
27 TAGGED GRAFFITI WITH 38 AND GAMMA.
28 Q. WHERE DID YOU GAIN THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE
1685
1 UNDERLYING FACTS OF THIS CONVICTION?

2 A. FROM ONE OF THE CASES THAT WE HAVE IN THE OFFICE
3 AND THE DETECTIVE -- KNOWING THE DETECTIVE THAT CONDUCTED
4 THE INVESTIGATION AT THE TIME.
5 Q. YOU SPOKE WITH THIS DETECTIVE PERSONALLY?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. DID YOU ALSO REVIEW POLICE REPORTS AS WELL AS
8 COURT DOCUMENTS?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. I'M GOING TO TURN TO A LATER PAGE IN THIS
11 PEOPLE'S 216. LOOKING AT WHAT'S ENTITLED, "A PLEA OF
12 GUILTY/NO CONTEST FELONY," LOOKING AT THE TOP LINE, WHAT
13 CRIME WAS MR. CENDEJAS CONVICTED OF AS A RESULT OF THESE
14 ACTIONS?
15 A. CARJACKING AND POSSESSION OF A WEAPON.
16 Q. THIS WOULD BE PENAL CODE SECTION 215?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. ON FEBRUARY 4th OF 20087
19 A. THAT'S THE CONVICTION DATE?
20 Q. YES.
21 A. I DO NOT KNOW THAT.
23 THE WITNESS: YOU HAVE TO SHOW ME WHERE IT IS.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. I'M SORRY. (INDICATING).
26 A. YES I
27 Q. FEBRUARY 4th, 2008?

28 A. YES I
1686

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. SECONDARILY, I ALSO HAVE PEOPLE'S 217. IT'S A
5 SIMILAR DOCUMENT WITH A BLUE BACK WITH MULTIPLE PAGES.
11
6 THE FIRST PAGE IS ENTITLED, THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
7 CALIFORNIA VS. JAVIER ALBERTO CASTENEDA, 11
CASE NO.
8 SCD209462.
9 IN THIS DOCUMENT MR. CASTENEDA IS CHARGED WITH
10 VARIOUS OFFENSES, INCLUDING ATTEMPTED MURDER, ASSAULT WITH
11 A DEADLY WEAPON, ASSAULT WITH A FIREARM. IT'S
12 DATE-STAMPED DECEMBER 28th OF 2007, THE DATE OF OFFENSE
13 BEING OCTOBER 1 5 t OF 2007.
14 IF YOU COULD FLIP THROUGH THOSE PAGES AND
15 FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH THAT DOCUMENT.
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE FACTS UNDERLYING THIS
20 CASE?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. HOW DID YOU GAIN THE FACTS OR THE BASIS OF
23 KNOWLEDGE IN TERMS OF THE FACTS OF THIS CASE?
24 A. I DID -- RESPONDED TO THAT INCIDENT AND ALSO
25 HAVE REVIEWED THE REPORTS, RECOMMENDATION REPORTS AND
26 COURT DOCUMENTS ON THAT CASE.
27 Q. AS WELL AS SPEAKING WITH THE INVESTIGATING
28 OFFICERS AS WELL?
1687
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHO IS JAVIER ALBERTO CASTENADA?
3 A. JAVIER ALBERTO CASTENADA IS ALSO A GANG MEMBER
4 OF THE SHELLTOWN 38 THAT GOES BY THE MONIKER "SAVAGE."
5 Q. "SAVAGE"?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. ON OCTOBER 1st OF 2007, WHAT HAPPENED?
8 A. ON THIS DATE, AT THE 3100 BLOCK OF ADAMS AVENUE,
9 THERE IS A LIQUOR STORE -- EXCUSE ME -- IT'S A GAS STATION
10 THAT HAS A STORE ON THE PROPERTY.
11 THE VICTIMS, BERTIN VELASCO, MR. ONTEVEROS AND
12 THREE FEMALES, ARRIVED TO THE GAS STATION AND PARKED AT
13 ONE OF THE PUMPS. THE DRIVER OF THE VEHICLE EXITED THE
14 CAR, WENT TO THE LIQUOR -- THE SIDE OF THE STORE TO PAY
15 FOR THE GAS.
16 AS HE WAS WALKING INTO THE STORE, MR. CASTENEDA
17 WAS INSIDE THE STORE AND WALKING BY HIM. THEY STARE AT
18 EACH OTHER, WHAT THEY CALL MAD-DOGGING EACH OTHER, AND
19 ASKED HIM -- CASTENEDA CONFRONTED THE VICTIM AND ASKED
20 HIM, "WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" THE VICTIM RESPONDED,
21 "WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" AND IT STOPPED RIGHT THERE.
22 THEY CONTINUE. THE VICTIM WENT TO THE COUNTER,
23 PAID FOR HIS GAS. ON THE WAY OUT, MR. CASTENEDA WAS
24 WAITING FOR HIM OUTSIDE THE GAS STATION -- OUTSIDE THE
25 STORE. AS HE WALKED BY HIM, HE DID CLAIM THAT HE WAS --
26 THAT "THIS IS SHELLTOWN."
27 THE VICTIM, THE DRIVER OF THE CAR, CONTINUED
28 WALKING TOWARDS HIS CAR. AT THIS TIME THE PASSENGER OF
1688
1 THE CAR, WHO IS BERTIN VESLAQUEZ, HAD EXITED THE CAR,

\
2 WHO'S ALSO A MEMBER OF THE SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET.

3 CASTENEDA STARTED SHOOTING AT THEM AND STRUCK
4 BERTIN VELASQUEZ ON HIS LEG TWICE.
5 Q. AS A RESULT OF THIS, WAS MR. CASTENEDA CONVICTED
6 OF ANY CRIMES, ACCORDING TO THIS PACKET?
7 A. YES. CASTENEDA WAS LATER FOUND AT HIS
8 GIRLFRIEND'S ADDRESS, AND THAT'S HOW I BECAME INVOLVED
9 BECAUSE I WAS THE ONE THAT ARRESTED HIM AT THE
10 GIRLFRIEND'S HOUSE ABOUT A BLOCK AWAY FROM THE SCENE.
11 Q. AS A RESULT OF THE CRIMINAL CHARGES, THOUGH,
12 WHICH CHARGES WAS HE ULTIMATELY CONVICTED OF?
13 A. OF AN ASSAULT WITH A\ FIREARM.
14 Q. THAT WAS AGAINST A VICTIM BY THE NAME OF JASON
15 JONES?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. WAS HE CONVICTED OF THE SAME AGAINST BERTIN
18 VESLAQUEZ?
19 A. YES, FOR THE SAME CHARGE.
20 Q. HE WAS ALSO CONVICTED OF ATTEMPTED VOLUNTARY
21 MANSLAUGHTER AGAINST BERTIN VESLAQUEZ?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. THIS IS ALL BY GUN USAGE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND THE DATE OF THAT CONVICTION WAS
26 DECEMBER 12th OF 2008?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WHEREAS THE CRIME TOOK PLACE IN '07?
1689
1 A. YES, CORRECT.
2 Q. YOU MENTIONED BERTIN VELAZQUEZ AS A MEMBER OF
3 SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET. DOES HE HAVE A BROTHER NAMED
4 MARCO VELASQUEZ?
5 A. YES, HE DOES.
6 Q. IS MARCO VESLAQUEZ A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN
7 38TH STREET?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHAT IS HIS NICKNAME?
10 A. "SPARROW."
11 Q. "SPARROW" LIKE THE BIRD?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. GETTING BACK TO SHELLTOWN AND 186.22, WE'VE BEEN
14 TALKING ABOUT SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET. IS THAT THE COMMON
15 NAME OF THIS GANG?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. DO THEY HAVE DEFINED BORDERS?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WHAT ARE THE HISTORICAL, DEFINED, HARD BORDERS
20 OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
21 A. TO THE NORTH IT WILL BE IMPERIAL AVENUE. TO THE
22 WEST WILL BE THE FREEWAY 15. TO THE EAST HISTORICALLY IT
23 HAS BEEN 43rd STREET. DURING THE TIME WHERE -- WHEN I
24 HAD SHELLTOWN AND I WORKED IN THAT AREA, THERE HAD BEEN
25 CLAIMING FURTHER EAST, UP TO 46th AND 47th STREET.
26 TO THE SOUTH, EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT A PART OF
27 38, THEY INCLUDE ALL THE WAY TO THE SOUTH TO DIVISION
28 STREET, WHICH IS THE DIVISION OF NATIONAL CITY AND
1690
1 SAN DIEGO. THIS SOUTHERN PART OF THE SHELLTOWN TERRITORY

2 IS PRIMARILY CLAIMED BY THE SHELLTOWN GAMMA BOYS.
3 SO THE LIMITS BETWEEN GAMMA AND SHELLTOWN 38, IT
4 WILL BE AROUND Z STREET.
5 Q. "z, " AS IN "ZEBRA"?
6 A. "z, u AS IN "ZEBRA."
7 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT THE EXHIBIT TO MY RIGHT AND YOUR
8 LEFT MARKED AS 265, DOES THAT SHOW VISUALLY THE BOUNDARIES
9 YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. IN TERMS OF THE HISTORICAL BOUNDARY, IT'S THE
12 SOLID BLACK LINE GOING DOWN 43rd STREET?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. AND THEN THE DASH LINE IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN
15 46th AND 47th STREET, KIND OF MIRRORING THE 805?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. IS THAT A NEW PLACE THAT'S BEGUN TO START
18 CLAIMING OR IS IN CONFLICT OVER?
19 A. HAVING CONFLICT WITH ANOTHER GANG THAT IS
20 CLAIMING THAT AREA.
21 Q. WHAT GANGS?
22 A. O.E.K. AND 46th STREET.
23 Q. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE SCENE, THERE'S A RED
24 CALL-OUT WITH A BLACK LINE THAT'S CALLED "HOMICIDE SCENE,"
25 POINTING TO AN AREA JUST ABOVE OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD. ARE
26 YOU FAMILIAR WITH THAT AREA?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WHAT AREA IS THAT?
1691
1 A. THAT WILL BE THE MOU~TAIN VIEW PARK AREA.

2 Q. ALSO KNOWN AS OCEAN VIEW PARK?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WITHIN THIS TERRITORY ARE THERE SPECIFIC SPOTS
5 THAT ARE COMMON HANGOUTS FOR SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET GANG
6 MEMBERS?
7 A. YES.
9 A. THAT SPECIFIC AREA, THE PARK HAS BEEN CLAIMED BY
10 SHELLTOWN 38 AS PART OF THEIR TERRITORY.
11 Q. WHAT ABOUT SOUTH CREST PARK?
12 A. IT IS ALSO.
~
13 Q. ARE THERE OTHER AREAS, NOT NECESSARILY PARKS,

14 THAT ARE KNOWN HANGOUTS TO YOU OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
15 GANG MEMBERS?
16 A. YES. 38th AND NATIONAL. THERE'S A LOT OF
17 HANGOUTS ON 39th, JUST SOUTH OF IMPERIAL. SOME OF THE
18 GANG MEMBERS' HOUSES WILL INCLUDE 39TH AND OCEAN VIEW,
19 ABOUT THE 200 -- 200 SOUTH 39th STREET, 38th AND --
20 I'M SORRY -- 37th AND OCEAN VIEW, THE 3700 BLOCK OF
21 HEMLOCK.
22 AND I'M JUST NAMING THE WHOLE BLOCK BECAUSE I
23 DON'T RECALL SPECIFIC ADDRESSES ON THOSE GANG MEMBERS, BUT
24 I KNOW THAT IF I'M LOOKING FOR' PLACES WHERE THEY COMMONLY
25 HANG OUT, THOSE ARE THE PLACES THAT WE'LL TRY FIRST.
26 Q. IN THE YEAR WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, 2008, DO YOU
27 HAVE A ROUGH NUMBER OR A HARD NUMBER ON THE NUMBER OF
28 DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBERS WITHIN SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
1692
1 A. YES. THERE WERE ABOUT 90 -- I WOULD SAY 90 WILL

2 BE A SAFE NUMBER.
3 Q. 9-0?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. IS THAT DOCUMENTED MEMBERS?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THAT NUMBER HAS GONE UP OR DOWN
8 OR REMAINED STABLE UP UNTIL TODAY?
9 A. IT HAS GONE UP AND ALSO HAS GONE DOWN. IT
10 VARIES ON A REGULAR BASIS BECAUSE PEOPLE GET DOCUMENTED
11 AND ALSO PEOPLE GET PURGED FROM THE SYSTEM, SO IT'S BEEN
12 STABLE IN BETWEEN THE 90'S AND 100'S.
13 Q. HAS IT EVER DIPPED BELOW THERE?
14 A. NO, NOT THAT I KNOW.
15 Q. DOES SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET HAVE COMMON SIGNS OR
16 SYMBOLS?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS,
19 DETECTIVE GASCA. I BELIEVE IT MIGHT BE QUICKER IF WE JUST
20 DO BOTH. BEAR WITH ME FOR A MOMENT.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS
24 NUMBERED 218 THROUGH 230. THESE SAME PHOTOGRAPHS WE'LL BE
25 SHOWING TO THE JURY ON THE TELEVISION BEHIND YOU.
28 \\
1693
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. LET'S START WITH PEOPLE'S 218. THIS APPEARS TO
11
3 BE A PHOTOGRAPH OF A WHITE ST 11 OUTLINED IN BLUE; IS THAT
4 CORRECT?
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. WHAT IS THIS SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS IN TERMS OF
7 SHELLTOWN?
8 A. IN TERMS OF SHELLTOWN, IT WILL BE THE 11
S 11 FOR
11
9 SHELL" AND THE "T 11 FOR "TOWN.~ THEY'RE INITIALS FOR
10 SHELLTOWN.
11 Q. IS THIS A COMMON STYLE OF WRITING AS WELL
12 ASSOCIATED WITH SHELLTOWN?
13 A. YES.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 219 IS A PICTURE OF A TREE WITH SOME
18 WRITING ON IT. WHAT IS THE WRITING ON THE 219'S TREE?
19 A. ON TOP OF -- ABOVE THE NUMBER 3 WE SEE WHAT IS A
20 DRAWING OF A SEASHELL, AS WELL .. AS ON THE OTHER BRANCH OF
21 THE TREE ALSO A SEASHELL, AND BELOW WE SEE THE 11 3" AND THE
11
22 8 11 FOR 38TH STREET, AND SHELLS REPRESENT -- IT'S A SYMBOL
23 THAT REPRESENTS SHELLTOWN.
24 Q. AND 3-8 REPRESENTS 11
38 11 ?
25 A. CORRECT.
28 \\
1694
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 220 IS A -- FOCUSING ON THE GREEN
3 WRITING, WHAT CAN WE SEE WRITTEN IN GREEN?
4 A. WRITTEN IN GREEN WE SEE "38," 38TH STREET,
5 "VANDAL," AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE "0-N-L-Y" FOR "ONLY."
6 Q. IS THIS A COMBINATION NOW OF "38" AND "ST"? IS
7 THE "ST" FOR STREET?
8 A. IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE IT'S AFTER THE 38, I WOULD
9 HAVE TO SAY THAT IT'S FOR 38TH STREET.
10 Q. AND IN ALL LIKELIHOOD BECAUSE VANDAL'S NAME IS
11 PUT NEXT TO IT, WOULD ONE ASSUME THAT VANDAL MAY HAVE PUT
12 THIS UP?
13 A. YES.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 221 IS A CINDER BLOCK WALL WITH BLACK
18 GRAFFITI ON IT. WHAT IS THE BLACK GRAFFITI?
19 A. IT'S "38 -- "38 STR." "MOBB" UNDERNEATH THE 38,
20 AND IT WAS 38TH STREET, AND "MOBB" IS A WAY TO SAY MAFIA
21 OR GANG.
22 Q. IS THIS A COMMON WAY TO MARK TERRITORY?
23 A. YES.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. PEOPLE'S 222 IS A BLACK AND WHITE DRAWING OF A
28 SKULL WITH CLOTHING ON. HAVE YOU SEEN THIS BEFORE?
1695
~ 1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT IS THIS INDICATIVE OF?
3 A. THIS IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE A SKELETON DRESSED AS
4 A -- WITH SOME CLOTHING THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH GANG
5 MEMBERS WITH THE BANDANA AND THE SHIRT WITH THE BUTTON
6 THE FIRST -- ONLY THE FIRST, TOP BUTTON BUTTONED. THIS IS
7 THE OLDER WAY WHEN GANG MEMBERS USED TO DRESS. THE "ST"
8 REPRESENTS SHELLTOWN.
9 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM KNOWN AS "CHOLO,"
10 C-H-0-L-0?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHO IS A CHOLO?
13 A. CHOLO IS A WORD IN SPANISH THAT MEANS "GANG
14 MEMBER."
15 Q. IS THERE A CERTAIN CLOTHING OR STYLE THAT USED
16 TO GO ALONG WITH THAT TERM "CHOLLO"?
17 A. YES, IT USED TO BE THE TYPICAL -- OR MOST
18 COMMONLY KNOWN AS GANG DRESS, WHEN -- IS PLAID PENDLETONS,
19 PLAID SHIRTS, BLACK, DARK COLORS, BLUES, WHITES, GRAYS,
20 PANTS THAT WERE BAGGY, CREASES, WELL-PRESENTED, CLEAN,
21 SHINY SHOES, HAIR SLICKED BACK, CLEAN -- CLEAN-LOOKING
22 GANG MEMBER THAT IT USED TO BE.
23 Q. ONE OF THE INDICIA WAS ALSO THE TOP BUTTON OF
24 THE PLAID PENDLETON OR SHIRT WAS BUTTONED WHILE THE REST
25 WERE LEFT OPEN?
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. AND OCCASIONALLY YOU'D SEE A BANDANA AROUND THE
28 HEAD?
1696
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. WOULD THIS BE INDICATIVE OF AN OLD-SCHOOL
3 SHELLTOWN TYPE?
4 A. YES.
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. PEOPLE'S 223 IS ANOTHER 38; IS THAT CORRECT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. IS THIS JUST ANOTHER WAY OF WRITING 38TH STREET?
11 A. YES.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. PEOPLE'S 224 IS SHELLTOWN 38th STREET DRAWN
16 OUT IN GRAFFITI, SOME SORT OF VIADUCT; WOULD YOU AGREE?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IN THIS PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH THERE'S THREE DOTS
19 BETWEEN "SHELL" AND "TOWN." DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO
20 WITH HISPANIC GANGS?
21 A. THE THREE DOTS ARE COMMONLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE
22 MEANING OF "MY CRAZY LIFE." YOU OFTEN SEE THEM IN TATTOOS
23 USUALLY IN THEIR HANDS, FINGERS, BELOW THEIR EYES, SOME
24 AROUND THEIR FACE.
25 IN GRAFFITI YOU JUST -- IT'S KNOWN AS
26 HISPANIC -- FOR HISPANIC GANGS TO PUT THOSE THREE DOTS
27 SOMEWHERE ALONG THE NAME OF THE GANG.
28 \\
1697
1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2~5 WAS MARKED

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. MOVING ON TO 225, THIS IS GRAFFITI ON A BRICK --
5 OR, EXCUSE ME -- A STUCCO WALL. YOU CAN SEE A RED
6 "38TH STREET" ALONG WITH THREE NAMES ON THE RIGHT-HAND
7 SIDE; IS THAT CORRECT?
9 Q. IS THIS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A PERSON DOING
10 TAGGING WITH MULTIPLE PEOPLE PRESENT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. SO WE HAVE "VANDAL," "CHUCK," AND WHAT IS THE
13 BOTTOM ONE?
14 A. IT LOOKS LIKE IT SAYS "GORDO."
15 Q. IS THAT SPANISH FOR SOMETHING?
16 A. IT'S SPANISH FOR "HEAVYSET" OR "FAT."
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 226 IS "38TH STREET" WRITTEN IN BLACK
21 ON A LARGER BLOCK WALL; IS THAT CORRECT?
22 A. CORRECT.
23 Q. WOULD THIS BE ANOTHER INDICIA OF TERRITORY
24 MARKING?
25 A. YES.
28 \\
1698
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 227 IS "38" WRITTEN AT THE END OF A
3 PIPE. WE CAN SEE SOME WHITE GRAFFITI ALONG WITH IT. CAN
4 YOU READ WHAT THAT IS?
11
5 A. A "38," EL VANDAL." IT'S JUST-- "E-L"
6 INDICATES IN SPANISH THE WORD FOR VANDAL AS THE PERSON WHO
7 DID THE GRAFFITI, AND WE SEE AGAIN THE THREE DOTS BETWEEN
8 THE E-L AND THE NAME OF THE MONIKER OF VANDAL.
11
9 WE SEE ON THIS SIDE -- THE SECOND WORD I SEE S"
10 AND "CHUCK."
11 Q. CHUCK AS IN C-H-U-C-K?
12 A. YES, CORRECT. AND THE FIRST WORD I CANNOT
13 "N" -- I CANNOT QUITE DESCRIBE RIGHT NOW WHAT IT IS.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 228, WE HAVE TWO SHADES OF GREEN; ONE
18 IS A DARK GREEN SQUIGGLE OVER A LIGHTER GREEN WRITING
19 FOLLOWED BY "ST 38," "ST" --I CAN'T MAKE OUT THE OTHER
20 TWO.
21 A. THE NUMBER "1 11
AND "R" AND AN "0." WHAT I SEE
22 HERE IS THAT INITIALLY THERE WAS -- ON THE LIGHTER GREEN
23 COLOR THERE'S A "W" AND A "K" FOR "WICKED CLOWNS" THAT WAS
24 CROSSED OUT BY SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET AND THE NUMBER 1, AND
25 THE "R-0" MEANS "PRIMERO," WHICH IS NO. 1 IN SPANISH.
26 Q. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HAVE -- WHO ARE THE WICKED
27 CLOWNS?
28 A. WICKED CLOWNS IS A TAGGING CREW.
1699
1 Q. WHAT DOES IT SIGNIFY TO YOU THAT THEIR NAME IS

2 CROSSED OUT IN THE SAME COLOR AS THE SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
3 TAG IS WRITTEN IN?
4 A. DEPENDING ON WHERE IT WAS, IF IT WAS -- IF THIS
5 TAGGING WAS FOUND IN THE AREA OF SHELLTOWN AND THIS GANG
6 CAME AND -- WICKED CLOWNS CAME AND PUT THEIR OWN GRAFFITI
7 AS A SIGN OF DISRESPECT FOR SHELLTOWN 38, WHEN SHELLTOWN
8 38 DISCOVERED THIS, THEY CROSSED IT OUT AND THEY'RE
..
9 SHOWING THEM THEY ARE THE ONES THAT RULE IN THIS AREA. OR
10 IT COULD BE THAT IT'S THE WICKED CLOWNS IN THE AREA AND
11 OR ANY AREA AND SHELLTOWN JUST DISRESPECTING THE WICKED
12 CLOWNS CROSSED IT OUT.
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. PEOPLE'S 229 IS A GRAY AND BLACK "ST" AMONGST
17 OTHER GRAFFITI; IS THAT CORRECT?
18 A. CORRECT.
11
19 Q. IS THIS A WAY OF JUST WRITING ST" FOR
20 SHELLTOWN?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. I WANT TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON THE BLACK
23 WRITING TO THE FAR RIGHT. DO YOU SEE THAT RIGHT BY THE
24 "T, " DETECTIVE GASCA?
25 A. TO THE RIGHT, BELOW THE --
26 Q. YES.
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WHAT DOES THAT SAY?
1700
1 A. LOOKS LIKE "S-P-E-E-0-Y." IT'S A COMBINATION OF

2 LOWER CASE AND UPPER CASE LETTERS, AND IT SAYS "SPEEDY."
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. PEOPLE'S 230, FINALLY, OF THIS EXHIBIT IS
7 "SHELLTOWN" AND "1920" IN THE MIDDLE. WHAT IS THE
8 SIGNIFICANCE OF "1920"?
9 A. 1920. SHELLTOWN, AS MANY OF THE HISPANIC GANGS
10 IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, USE THE LETTERS OF THE ALPHABET TO
11 IDENTIFY THEMSELVES, AND THEY NUMBER EACH LETTER STARTING
12 WITH AN "A" AS THE NO. 1.
13 ONCE THEY -- THE "S" WILL BE THE NUMBER -- THE
14 19th LETTER OF THE ALPHABET. THE "19" REPRESENTS THE
15 "S." THE "20" REPRESENTS THE "T." YOU SOMETIMES JUST SEE
16 THE "1920." THE "1920" IS SPECIFICALLY ASSOCIATED WITH
17 THE SHELLTOWN GANG.
18 Q. DETECTIVE, IN INVESTIGATING THIS CASE AND
19 PREPARING FOR TODAY, DID YOU ALSO VISIT OCEAN VIEW, ALSO
20 KNOWN AS MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DID YOU TAKE SEVERAL PHOTOGRAPHS OR A HANDFUL OF
23 PHOTOGRAPHS DETAILING GRAFFITI AND SIGNS AND SYMBOLS
24 WITHIN THE PARK ITSELF?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A STACK OF EXHIBITS, 118
27 THROUGH 149. NOW THAT WE'VE SEEN THE BASIS FOR MOST OF
28 THE SIGNS AND SYMBOLS, WE CAN SEE HOW THEY'RE APPLIED TO A
1701
1 SPECIFIC LOCATION; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT?

2 A. YES.
3 (PEOPLE 1 S EXHIBIT 118 WAS MARKED
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. LET 1 S START WITH PEOPLE 1 S 118. IT 1 S A DEAD-END
7 SIGN WITH A K-RAIL METAL BARRIER GOING ACROSS THE DIRT
8 ALLEY. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS PARK, DETECTIVE GASCA?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. IS THIS AT THE NORTHERN END OF THIS PARK?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS THAT BARRIER PUT IN
13 WITHIN THE LAST YEAR?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. IT WAS NOT PRESENT BACK IN 2008?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. WHAT GRAFFITI CAN WE SEE HERE?
18 A. WE CAN SEE HERE THE "S" ON THE YELLOW SIGN, ON
19 THE DEAD-END, AND ALSO THE "T" ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
20 ON THE SECOND YELLOW SIGN, "S" FOR "SHELL," "T" FOR
21 "TOWN," AND WE SEE THE NUMBER 3 ON THE RED SQUARE AND THE
1
22 NUMBER 8 ON THE SQUARE TO THE RIGHT, AND THAT S FOR
23 38TH STREET.
24 WE ALSO SEE ON THE RAIL BETWEEN THOSE THREE
25 STREET SIGNS THAT IT SAYS IN BLACK LETTERS THE LETTER "V,"
26 THE LETTER "S," THE "T," THE "3" AND THE "8."
27 RIGHT HERE I SEE THERE IS "V" FOR "VARILLO,"
'
28 WHICH IS A NEIGHBORHOOD IN SPANISH, "S" FOR "SHELL," "T"
1702
1 FOR "TOWN" AND THEN THE "38" FOR "38TH STREET."

4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. THIS SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS -- WHEN WE WENT OUT
6 AND TOOK IT -- IT STARTS AT THE NORTH END AND MOVES ALL
7 THE WAY DOWN THE ALLEY TO THE SOUTH END; IS THAT CORRECT?
8 A. YES.
..
9 Q. WE DON'T HAVE TO GO INTO AS MUCH DETAIL WITH
10 EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM BECAUSE SOME ARE REPETITIVE; IS
12 A. YES.
13 Q. SO IF WE TURN TO OUR RIGHT, FACING EAST, THIS
14 WOULD BE THE WALL WE SEE IN THE ALLEYWAY?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WE HAVE A SERIES OF BLACK GRAFFITI ON SEVERAL
17 PARTS OF THE BLOCK WALL. IS THIS ALL PREDOMINANT OR
18 COMPLETELY SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DO WE SEE ANYTHING THAT'S NOT SHELLTOWN
21 38TH STREET?
22 A. NO.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. MOVING SOUTH, THIS IS ON A GATE RIGHT NEXT TO
27 THAT FENCE AND A CEMENT PAD ON THE GROUND. WE CAN MAKE
28 OUT MORE BLACK GRAFFITI IN PEOPLE'S 120. IS THIS
1703
1 INDICATIVE OF SHELLTOWN 38TH S~REET?
2 A. YES.
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 121 -- THIS WOULD BE JUST
7 TO THE SOUTH OF THAT -- WE SEE A FENCE AND A BLOCK WALL
8 WITH GREEN AND BLACK GRAFFITI, CORRECT?
9 A. CORRECT.
10 Q. IS IT ALL CONSISTENT WITH SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
11 GRAFFITI?
12 A. YES. AND IN ADDITION.. TO THE SHELLTOWN
13 38TH STREET, I ALSO SEE THE LETTER "S" AND THE LETTER
14 I'M SORRY-- "L" AND "S", AND FOR-- "LOCOS" IN SPANISH
15 MEANS "CRAZY" -- "CRAZIES."
16 AND AS YOU SEE ON THE LOWER PART OF THE LETTER
17 "L," THERE IS A CROSS AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE LETTER "L"
18 SYMBOLIZES "LOGAN," AND LOGAN IS A RIVAL GANG TO
19 SHELLTOWN. SO EVERY TIME THEY DO WRITE THE LETTER "L,"
20 THEY'LL CROSS IT OUT.
21 Q. IN THIS SLIDE WE ALSO SEE "3V3." WHAT IS "3V3"?
22 A. "3V3" IS A COMBINATION OF NUMBERS AND ROMAN
23 NUMBERS TO IDENTIFY THE "3" FOR "30," THE "V" FOR THE
24 NUMBER 5, AND THE "3" FOR THE NUMBER 3 THAT WILL MAKE 38.
25 "LOCOS" AGAIN WITH THE "L" CROSSED OUT, "1920" TO
26 REPRESENT SHELLTOWN, AND "FUCK LECHE," AND "LECHE" IS THE
27 DEROGATORY NAME FOR LOGAN.
28 Q. "LECHE" IS "MILK" IN SPANISH?
1704
1 A. "LECHE" IS "MILK" IN SPANISH. IT DOESN'T MAKE

2 SENSE, BUT IT'S JUST -- BECAUSE IT RHYMES WITH LOGAN AND
3 THEY CALL THEM "LECHEROS" AND "LECHE," AND IT'S JUST A WAY
4 TO CALL THEM AS AN INSULT.
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. MOVING SOUTH, PEOPLE'S 122, MORE BLACK GRAFFITI
9 ON THE BLOCK WALL IN THE ALLEY?
10 A. YES.
13 BY MR I TROCHA:
14 Q. PEOPLE'S 123 IS A BAND AROUND A TELEPHONE POLE
15 IN THIS ALLEY, IS IT NOT, DETECTIVE GASCA?
16 A. IT IS.
17 Q. IN THE FOREGROUND WE CAN SEE "38 ST" ETCHED INTO
18 THIS METAL BAND, CORRECT?
19 A. "38 ST 0 II
20 Q. JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THAT IS A SERIES OF NAMES.

21 DO YOU SEE THOSE NAMES?
22 A. YES.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. PEOPLE'S 124 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THOSE NAMES. WHAT
27 IS THE TOP NAME IN THAT MIDDLE LIST?
28 A. "SPEEDY."
1705
1 Q. WHAT OTHER NAMES CAN YOU MAKE OUT?

11
2 A. GANGSTER," "CROOKS, .. "SMURF, .. "STONEY,"
11
3 "CHUCK," SMILEY" AND "R-I-P." I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S
4 11
COMPLETE, A "B-R-0" WITH A W" OR JUST A "B-R-0, 11
AND THAT
5 IS FOR ONE OF THE SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS THAT WAS KILLED
6 AND THEY USED TO GO BY THE NAME OF 11
BROWN."
7 Q. WHEN A GANG MEMBER DIES, ARE THEY MEMORIALIZED
8 IN SUCH A FASHION?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. IS THIS COMMONPLACE IF THEY DIE HONORABLY?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT IF THEY DIE DISHONORABLY?
13 A. YOU DON'T SEE THOSE "R-I-P." YOU DON'T SEE
14 THOSE TATTOOS. YOU DON'T SEE THEIR NAMES TAGGED IN THOSE
15 PLACES THAT ARE KNOWN AS THEIR HANGOUTS.
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. MOVING ON TO 125, FURTHER SOUTH, A BLOCK
20 BASICALLY IN THE SAME ALLEY, WE HAVE BOTH BLACK AND GREEN
21 GRAFFITI?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. IS THIS ALL INDICATIVE OF SHELLTOWN?
24 A. YES.
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
28 Q. CLOSE UP, UNDERNEATH THE BLACK GRAFFITI, WE SEE
1706
1 THIS WRITTEN IN PENCIL OR PEN;~IS THAT CORRECT?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHAT DOES THAT SAY, DETECTIVE?
4 A. IT SAYS "COP KILLERS, 38 BOYS."
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. PEOPLE'S 127 IS NOW HIGHLIGHTING THE GREEN
9 GRAFFITI. WHAT IS THAT WRITTEN IN GREEN?
10 A. "187." THAT REPRESENTS THE SECTION OF THE PENAL
11 CODE FOR HOMICIDE, MURDER, AND I SEE AN "L" AND IT APPEARS
12 TO BE THAT THE "H" IS CROSSED OUT, AND IT'S FOR
~
13 "LOGAN HEIGHTS."
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. PEOPLE'S 128 IS FURTHER SOUTH. IT'S AN OLDER
18 FENCE WITH WHITE GRAFFITI ON IT. CAN WE MAKE OUT A
19 SPECIFIC NAME WITH 128?
20 A. WE SEE "38," "SPEEDY" AND "RUBEN."
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
~
24 Q. PEOPLE'S 129 IS A CLOSE-UP OF THAT, IS IT NOT,

25 DETECTIVE GASCA?
26 A. IT IS CLOSER.
27 Q. ON THE VERY BOTTOM WE SEE SOME YELLOW GRAFFITI.
28 IS THAT ANOTHER NAME?
1707
1 A. YES, THAT'S "HEX," AND ALSO IN COMBINATION WITH

2 THE NAME OF THE -- THE MONIKER OF HEX IS -- THE "X" IS
3 ALSO BEING USED AS PART OF A ROMAN NUMBER THREE X'S TO
4 REPRESENT THE 30, THE "V" TO REPRESENT NO. 5, AND THREE
5 1'S TO REPRESENT "3." SO IT WlLL BE HEX THE ONE WHO
6 TAGGED THIS, AND ALSO FROM 38.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 130, THIS IS MOSTLY A PINK
11 FENCE BUT BELOW WE CAN SEE SOME OTHER COLORED WRITING; IS
13 A. CORRECT.
14 Q. DOES THIS INDICATE THAT SOME OF THIS GANG
15 WRITING HAS BEEN WRITTEN OR PAINTED OVER BY THE CITY OR
16 RESIDENTS?
17 A. YES.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. PEOPLE'S 131 IS FURTHER SOUTH IN THE PARK. IT'S
22 A GRAY FENCE WITH "1920" AND "38TH STREET" WRITTEN ON IT.
23 A. YES.
24 Q. IS THIS INDICATIVE OF 38th STREET?
25 A. YES.
28 \\
1708
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 132 IS A TREE WITHIN THE PARK. WE SEE
3 "38 ST" ON THE RIGHT FORK, AND THERE'S A NAME ON THE LEFT.
4 CAN YOU MAKE OUT THAT NAME?
5 A. I BELIEVE IT SAYS "STALKER," BUT IT'S HARD TO
6 READ BECAUSE OF THE SURFACE OF THE TREE.
7 Q. COULD IT ALSO SAY "STONEY"?
8 A. IT COULD. I CAN SEE. THE "S," THE "T," THE "0,"
9 AND THE REST IS A LITTLE -- IS BLURRY.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. ANOTHER TREE IN THE PARK, PEOPLE'S 133, HAS "38"
14 WRITTEN ON IT AS WELL AS A NAME, CORRECT?
15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. WHAT NAME IS IT, IF YOU CAN MAKE IT OUT?
17 A. IN THIS ONE I SEE THE "S, " THE "T, " THE "0, " THE
18 "M," THE "p" --THAT'S "STOMP"-- AND "38."
..
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 134 IS ANOTHER TREE. WE CAN SEE THE
23 "HEX" WRITTEN AGAIN IN THIS?
24 A. IT IS CONSISTENT WITH THE GRAFFITI THAT WE HAVE
25 SEEN ON THE FENCE WITH THE H-E-X, THE THREE X'S TO
26 REPRESENT THE 30, THE NO. 5 AND THE 3 FOR "38," AND THERE
27 IS AN "S" AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE TOP OF THE LETTER "T"
28 ON THE VERY BOTTOM.
1709

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. PEOPLE'S 135 IS A LIGHT POLE WITHIN THE PARK
5 WITH SOME GRAFFITI ON THE GRAY SECTION ABOVE THE BROWN
6 SECTION; IS THAT CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
8 Q. PEOPLE'S -- I'M SORRY. CAN YOU MAKE OUT WHAT IS
9 WRITTEN ON THAT POLE?
10 A. WHAT I CAN SEE FROM HERE IS AN "S," THE "T" AND
11 THE "38" FOR SHELLTOWN 38.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. PEOPLE'S 136 IS A CONCRETE BASE FOR A FENCE IN
16 THIS PARK IN THE SAME AREA OF THAT LIGHT POLE; IS THAT
17 CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
19 Q. WE CAN SEE SOME OLDER SHELLTOWN-TYPE GRAFFITI IN
20 THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
21 A. YES.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. IF WE MOVE JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THAT IN PEOPLE'S
26 137, ARE THERE NAMES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT GRAFFITI?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WHAT NAMES ARE THOSE?
1710
1 A. THAT'S "SPEEDY" AND "CLOWN."

4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. PEOPLE'S 138 IS ONE OF THE BENCHES IN THE PARK;
6 IS THAT CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. THERE IS AN ASSORTMENT OF GRAFFITI FOUND ALL
9 OVER THESE BENCHES; IS THAT CORRECT?
10 A. YES I
11 Q. JUST FOCUSING ON THIS ONE FOR A MOMENT, ABOVE

12 THE BLACK "VST 38 ST," THERE ARE THREE INITIALS, "O.V.P."
13 DO YOU SEE THOSE?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT IS O.V.P.?
16 A. O.V.P. IS THE INITIALS FOR OCEAN VIEW PARK.
17 OCEAN VIEW PARK IS PART OF THE TERRITORY THAT SHELLTOWN 38
18 CLAIMS AS PART OF THEIR TURF.
19 Q. IS O.V.P. A COMMON SIGN OR SYMBOL OF SHELLTOWN
20 38TH STREET?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IS IT SYNONYMOUS WITH SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
23 A. YES I

26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. PEOPLE'S 139 IS A CLOSE-UP OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN
28 TALKING ABOUT WITH THE O.V.P.;'IS THAT CORRECT?
1711
1 A. YES.
2 Q. BELOW THAT IT SAYS, "FUCK" SOMETHING. CAN YOU
3 MAKE OUT WHAT THAT SOMETHING IS?
4 A. "SNITCH" AND "THREE," THE NO. 3 SPELLED OUT.
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. PEOPLE'S 140 IS ANOTHER PART OF THAT PARK AND
9 THE PARK BENCH, AND WE SEE MORE GRAFFITI THAT WASN'T
10 VISIBLE BEFORE ON THE BOTTOM, CORRECT?
11 A. YES.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. PEOPLE'S 144 [SIC] IS THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THAT
16 BENCH FEATURING MOSTLY WHITE GRAFFITI. I WANT TO FOCUS
17 YOUR ATTENTION IN PEOPLE'S 141 --
18 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. WHAT EXHIBIT NUMBER ARE WE
19 ON, PLEASE?
20 MR. TROCHA: 141, YOUR HONOR. I'M SORRY.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. WE SEE WHITE "SHELLTOWN 38 ST" AND THEN A SERIES
24 OF LETTERS-- I CAN MAKE OUT A "B" AND A "G." WHAT IS
25 THAT, DETECTIVE?
26 A. "BABY GANGSTER," "VARRIO SHELLTOWN," THE "38" --
11
27 38TH STREET-- "LOCOS," 11
BABY GANGSTER .. AND FUCK LECHE,"
11 11
28 AND LECHE IS CROSSED OUT.
1712
1 Q. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE "L" BEING CROSSED OUT.

2 WHY IS THE "E" CROSSED OUT ON THESE ONES?
3 A. IT'S ALSO -- THAT "E" REPRESENTS ANOTHER RIVAL
4 GANG THAT IS ENCANTO, AND THEY WILL CROSS IT OUT.
5 Q. SIMILAR TO LOGAN?
6 A. YES.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. PEOPLE'S 142 IS FURTHER DOWN ON THAT BENCH. WE
11 SEE "ST 38" IN WHITE. CAN YOU MAKE OUT THE NAME
12 UNDERNEATH IT?
13 A. IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S A G-U -- G-R-U-M-P-Y FOR
14 "GRUMPY" AND ABOVE SHELLTOWN 38, "LOCOS ...
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. PEOPLE'S 143, I BELIEVE, IS A DIFFERENT BENCH
19 ALTOGETHER IN THIS PARK, CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. AGAIN, THE GRAFFITI WE SEE IS CONSISTENT WITH
22 SHELLTOWN?
23 A. YES.
..
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. THIS IS THE TOP OF THAT BENCH IN PEOPLE'S 144.
28 FOCUSING ON THE BOTTOM AND THE TOP ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE,
1713
11
1 WE SEE "SHELLTOWN WRITTEN. IS THERE ALSO A NAME
2 ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE TWO TAGS?
3 A. "MANIAK."
11 11 11
4 Q. MANIAK SPELLED WITH A K ? 11
5 A. WITH A K. II II

8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. PEOPLE'S 145 IS A BETTER VIEW OF THE SAME,
10 DETECTIVE?
11 A. YES.
12 THE COURT: THERE WAS NO 144; IS THAT CORRECT?
13 MR. TROCHA: 144 WAS THE ORIGINAL WITH THE TWO
14 "MANIAK" TAGS. 145 IS A DIFFERENT VIEW OF THOSE SAME
15 TAGS.
16 THE COURT: WHAT WAS -- I'M SORRY. THANK YOU. WHAT
17 WAS 143?
18 MR. TROCHA: 143 IS A NEW BENCH WITHIN THE PARK
19 ALTOGETHER WITH GRAFFITI ON IT.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. PEOPLE'S 146 IS MORE GRAFFITI ON THIS SAME
26 BENCH. CAN YOU MAKE OUT NAMES ASSOCIATED WITH THIS
27 GRAFFITI, DETECTIVE?
11
28 A. I SEE THE 11
ST 38, WHAT APPEARS TO BE S-P-A-N-K.
1714
1 I CANNOT SEE -- IT LOOKS LIKE IT SAYS "SPANK" -- I DON'T

2 KNOW IF THERE WAS A "y" AT THE END. I CANNOT SEE IT
3 BECAUSE OF THE GLARE-- "BABY G," AND THAT'S ALL I CAN
4 READ.
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
8 Q. PEOPLE'S 147 IS THE ~ROUND AROUND THIS BENCH.
9 IS THIS A PERSON'S NAME ASSOCIATED WITH SHELLTOWN AS WELL?
10 A. YES. THE "L-A" IS FOR -- TO DEFINE IT, IT'S
11 SPANISH FOR A FEMALE, AND "LOUESEY" IS A FEMALE THAT GOES
12 BY THIS MONIKER.
13 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. WHAT NAME, PLEASE?
14 THE WITNESS: LOUESEY.
15 THE COURT: HOW DO YOU SPELL IT?
16 THE WITNESS: L-0-U-E-S-E-Y.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. PEOPLE'S 148 IS A THIRD BENCH WITHIN THE PARK;
22 IS THAT CORRECT, DETECTIVE?
23 A. YES.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. THIS IS WHAT IS -- IN PEOPLE'S 149 WE HAVE MORE
28 GANG GRAFFITI STARTING WITH "SHELLTOWN 1920 GANG." IS
1715
1 THAT WHAT IS WRITTEN ON THIS BENCH?

2 AI YES I "VARRIOS SHELLTOWN 1920 GANG"'
3 3gth STREET LOCOS," "SOUTHEAST ZONE."
4 Q. DETECTIVE, ALSO PRIOR TO TODAY DID YOU HAVE A
5 CHANCE TO REVIEW A SERIES OF TATTOOS PROVIDED TO YOU BY
6 THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OF MR. DOMINGUEZ?
7 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, I APOLOGIZE. I NEED TO
8 INTERRUPT FOR JUST A MOMENT. I THINK I MISSED 126. CAN
9 YOU CLARIFY THAT FOR ME, PLEASE.
11 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 126 IS A CLOSE-UP
12 OF 125 WHERE IT STATES "COP KilLERS."
13 THE COURT: THANK YOU. MY APOLOGIES. BACK TO WHERE
14 YOU WERE.
15 MR. TROCHA: I APOLOGIZE, YOUR HONOR. I'LL TRY TO
16 SLOW DOWN.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. DETECTIVE, THE STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS I'VE HANDED
19 YOU WITH THE TATTOOS IS PEOPLE'S 96 THROUGH PEOPLE'S 117.
20 WE ARE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THEM, BUT WE'LL SKIP
21 AHEAD TO SOME OF THEM THAT ARE RELEVANT.
22 LET'S START WITH PEOPLE'S 101. 101 IS THE LEFT
23 FOREARM OF MR. DOMINGUEZ. FROM YOUR TRAINING AND
24 EXPERIENCE, IS THIS TATTOO INDICATIVE OF ANYTHING GANG
25 RELATED, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
26 A. IT IS HARD TO DEFINE WHAT THE DRAWING IS, AND I
27 DO NOT SEE -- I'M NOT QUITE SURE IF THAT IS A NUMBER 8,
28 BUT I WOULD NOT -- I CANNOT TELL. I'M SORRY.
1716
1 Q. PEOPLE'S 103 IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S

2 LEFT UPPER ARM AND SHOULDER. IS THERE ANYTHING GANG
3 RELATED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH? JUST ON THE ARM, I'M SORRY.
4 A. JUST ON THE ARM. NOr WHEN IT COMES TO A
5 SPECIFIC GANG, TO SHELLTOWN. THIS IS A COMMON GANG TATTOO
6 THAT IS SHARED WITH DIFFERENT HISPANIC GANG MEMBERS IN THE
7 SOUTHERN PART OF CALIFORNIA.
8 Q. CAN A PERSON WHO'S JUST PROUD OF THEIR HISPANIC
9 HERITAGE ALSO GET THIS TATTOO OR SOMETHING LIKE IT AND NOT
10 BE A GANG MEMBER AT ALL?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. PEOPLE'S 105 IS THE WORDS "AGONY AND ECSTASY"
13 UNDER THE NECKLINE. IS THIS ANYTHING INDICATIVE OF GANG
14 MEMBERSHIP?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. SKIP OVER 106 AND GO STRAIGHT TO 107. IGNORING
17 THE NAME NATALIE, THE LETTERS O.V.P. BELOW NATALIE, WHAT
18 ARE THEY INDICATIVE OF, DETECTIVE?
19 A. THOSE ARE THE INITIALS FOR OCEAN VIEW PARK.
20 THAT ALSO REPRESENTS -- A WAY OF REPRESENTATION FOR THE
21 SHELLTOWN 38 GANG.
22 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 109, IT'S THE DEFENDANT'S
23 RIGHT UPPER ARM AND SHOULDER. JUST FOCUSING ON THAT AREA,
24 DETECTIVE, NOT THE BACK THAT WE'RE ABLE TO SEE, DO YOU SEE
25 ANYTHING IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH THAT IS INDICATIVE OF GANG
26 MEMBERSHIP?
27 A. NO.
28 Q. PEOPLE'S 111 IS THE DEFENDANT'S RIGHT FOREARM.
1717
1 WHAT CAN WE SEE ON THIS FOREARM, DETECTIVE?

2 A. ON THIS ONE YOU CAN SEE A SEASHELL, THE SIGN
3 CLOSER TO THE ELBOW, THE LETTERS "HOOD RAISED," AND THEN
4 AT THE END OF THE WORD "RAISED" YOU SEE ANOTHER SEASHELL
5 SIGN. THE SEASHELLS REPRESENT SHELLTOWN.
6 Q. MOVE ON TO THE BACK, DETECTIVE. LET S START
1
7 WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ'S UPPER BACK. WE CAN SEE FROM "CALLE"

8 UP TO THE NECKLINE WHERE THE BLUE RULER IS.
9 THE COURT: WHAT EXHIBIT, PLEASE?
10 MR. TROCHA: PEOPLE'S 113, YOUR HONOR. I APOLOGIZE.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. WITHIN THIS TATTOO, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT
13 STANDS OUT TO YOU, DETECTIVE?
14 A. YES. I SEE ON THE RIM OF THE FEMALE'S HAT OR
15 MEXICAN-SOMBRERO TYPE, YOU SEE THE LETTER "S," THE "T,"
16 THE "S," "T," A SEASHELL AND ANOTHER AZTEC SIGN, ANOTHER
17 "T," ANOTHER "s."
18 Q. DO WE SEE ANY OTHER SEASHELLS WITHIN THE DESIGN?
19 A. I SEE A SHELL ON THE VERY TOP OF THE SOMBRERO
20 RIM. I SEE -- I SEE ANOTHER SHELL ON -- RIGHT BEHIND THE
21 RIGHT SHOULDER, JUST ABOUT THE RIM OF THE SOMBRERO WHERE
22 THE LETTER 11
S11 IS. I'M NOT QUITE SURE IF THAT IS -- ABOVE
23 THE SOMBRERO, IF IT S SOME SORT OF SEASHELL DESIGN, BUT I
1
24 WOULD NOT USE THAT BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE.

25 AND THE LETTER AND THE STREET -- I MEAN -- I'M
26 SORRY-- "CALLE." THE WORD "CALLE" MEANS "STREET" IN
27 SPANISH.
28 Q. THE WORD "CALLE", IS IT MORE ASSOCIATED THOUGH
1718
1 WITH WHAT WE SEE IN PEOPLE 1 S 115, WHICH IS THE LOWER BACK

2 OF MR. DOMINGUEZ?
3 A. YES, THAT WILL BE "CALLE 38" FOR 38TH STREET.
4 THE COURT: DOES THE REPORTER NEED A SPELLING ON
5 THAT?
6 THE WITNESS: C-A-L-L-E.
7 THE COURT: THANK YOU. "CALLE."
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. FINALLY, DETECTIVE GASCA, THIS IS THE BACK OF
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ 1 S HEAD. THERE 1 S A DESIGN THERE. CAN YOU
11 MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF THAT DESIGN?
12 THE COURT: THE EXHIBIT NUMBER, PLEASE?
13 MR. TROCHA: 117, YOUR HONOR.
14 THE WITNESS: NO, NOT REALLY. 1
IT S NOT VERY CLEAR.
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. DETECTIVE, DID YOU ALSO VIEW A SERIES OF
17 PHOTOGRAPHS OF MR. DOMINGUEZ IN THE COMPANY OF OTHER
18 PEOPLE PRIOR TO COMING TO COURT TODAY?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. I 1 M GOING TO SHOW YOU A STACK OF PHOTOGRAPHS,
21 PEOPLE'S 231 THROUGH 236. I'LL START WITH PEOPLE'S 231.
22 IT IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF A MEETING OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT
23 HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED BY ANOTHER WITNESS IN THIS
24 CASE. DO YOU RECOGNIZE ANYBODY IN PEOPLE'S 231?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. THERE'S A POINTER BEHIND YOU IF YOU NEED TO
27 ASSIST IN POINTING THE PEOPLE OUT.
28 WHO DO YOU RECOGNIZE, DETECTIVE?
1719
1 A. I DO RECOGNIZE MR. RICARDO GUTIERREZ, ALSO KNOWN

2 AS "CARTOON," MR. JONATHAN QUINTANILLA, "CROOKS," MARCO
3 VESLAQUEZ, "SPARROW" --
4 JUROR NO. 9: YOUR HONOR,,COULD YOU-- COULD THE--
5 THE WITNESS: POINT IT OUT?
6 JUROR NO. 9: COULD THE WITNESS PLEASE TOUCH THE
7 PERSON SHE'S REFERRING TO BECAUSE THE POINTER'S KIND OF
8 BOBBING AROUND AND WE CAN'T SEE IT.
9 THE COURT: YES. WHY DON'T YOU STEP DOWN AND JUST
11 THE COURT: -- STAND THERE BETWEEN THE RAILING AND
12 THE SCREEN, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, DETECTIVE.
13 FOR THE RECORD, THAT QUESTION WAS FROM MR. JUROR
14 IN SEAT NO. 9. THANK YOU.
16 THE WITNESS: RIGHT HERE, POINTING AT MR. RICARDO
17 GUTIERREZ, "CARTOON." IN THE BACK, THE LAST ONE AND THE
18 TALLEST PERSON IN THE BACK IS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA,
19 "CROOKS." NEXT TO HIM WITH THE WHITE HAT AND A BLUE SHIRT
20 IS MARCO VESLAQUEZ, "SPARROW."
21 NEXT TO VELASQUEZ IS RANDY BARNES DE LEON,
22 "SPANKY." THIS PERSON (INDICATING) I DO NOT KNOW HIS REAL
23 NAME. HE'S JUST KNOWN AS "BUSLA."
24 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. SPELL IT, PLEASE.
25 THE WITNESS: B-U-S-L-A.
27 THE WITNESS: RIGHT HERE i SEE MR. FLORENCIO
28 DOMINGUEZ, ALSO KNOWN AS "CHUNKY" OR "SPEEDY." RIGHT HERE
1720
1 I -- BELOW -- BEHIND MR. DOMINGUEZ, JUST THE HEAD OF

2 VICTOR RAMOS, ALSO KNOWN AS "CHUCK."
3 RIGHT HERE NEXT TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, BEHIND HIS
4 LEFT ARM, I SEE CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, ALSO KNOWN AS
5 "VANDAL."
6 RIGHT HERE IN THE BOTTOM, ON -- DOWN BELOW, THE
7 FIRST ONE, I RECOGNIZE HIM AS GREGORY ROMAN MENDOZA,
8 "HEFTY." NEXT TO MR. MENDOZA IS DANNY-- MR. LOPEZ. I
9 CAN'T REMEMBER HIS FIRST NAME RIGHT NOW-- "STALKER."
10 I SEE TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE, IN THE BLUE AND
11 YELLOW JACKET, MR. CHRISTOPHER -- CHRISTOPHER DIAZ,
12 "BLANCO."
13 DOWN BELOW, NEXT TO MR. DIAZ, I SEE CHRISTIAN
14 AVITA, AND I CANNOT RECALL THE NICKNAME OF -- THE NAME IN
15 THE MIDDLE OF THE ONES THAT ARE ON THE BOTTOM ROW, AND I
16 CANNOT RECALL -- OH, I DO NOT KNOW THIS GENTLEMAN HERE
17 (INDICATING).
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. THAT WOULD BE THE GENTLEMAN
.. KNEELING IN THE GRAY
20 SHIRT?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. PLEASE RESUME YOUR SEAT, DETECTIVE.
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. MOVING ON TO PEOPLE'S 232, THIS IS THE SAME
26 GROUP OF PEOPLE, JUST IN A DIFFERENT POSE, DETECTIVE?
27 A. YES.
28 \\
1721

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. PEOPLE'S 233 IS AN OLDER PHOTOGRAPH. CAN YOU
5 RECOGNIZE OR IDENTIFY ANYBODY IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
6 A. IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, EVEN THOUGH I CANNOT SEE THE
7 FACE OF THE PERSON THAT IS GIVING THEIR BACK TO THE
8 PHOTO -- ONE OF THE PERSONS THAT'S GIVING THE BACK TO THE
9 PHOTO -- THEY'RE STANDING UP -- I RECOGNIZE THE TATTOO OF
10 "CALLE 38" AND A FEMALE WITH A SOMBRERO AS ALMOST
11 IDENTICAL, IF NOT IDENTICAL, TATTOOS TO THE ONES THAT
12 MR. FLORENCIO HAS.
13 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ?
14 A. DOMINGUEZ, I'M SORRY.
15 Q. IN LOOKING AT THE BACK OF THE ONE YOU'VE
16 IDENTIFIED AS MR. DOMINGUEZ, THERE ARE NOT AS MANY TATTOOS
17 ON HIS BACK IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH, CORRECT?
18 A. CORRECT.
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 234 IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THREE
23 INDIVIDUALS. DO YOU RECOGNIZE~ THE HOUSE THEY'RE POSING
24 AT, DETECTIVE?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT HOUSE IS THAT?
27 A. THIS HOUSE IS LOCATED AT 3876 FRANKLIN AVENUE.
28 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE
1722
1 PHOTOGRAPH?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHO ARE THEY?
~
4 A. I JUST KNOW BY MONIKERS. THIS IS "LITTLE AL,"

5 THIS IS "LITTLE CHINO," AND THIS IS MR. DOMINGUEZ.
6 Q. IN TERMS OF "LITTLE AL," IS HE A GANG MEMBER AS
7 FAR AS YOU KNOW?
8 A. I DO NOT KNOW.
9 THE COURT: WHAT WAS THE OTHER NAME BESIDES
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
11 THE WITNESS: "LITTLE CHINO." IT'S A MONIKER. I DO
12 NOT KNOW HIS REAL NAME.
13 THE COURT: HOW WOULD I SPELL THAT?
14 THE WITNESS: "LITTLE," AND "CHINO" IS C-H-I-N-0.
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. PEOPLE'S 235 IS ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH WITH THREE
20 PEOPLE IN IT, CORRECT?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE THREE PEOPLE IN THIS
23 PHOTOGRAPH?
24 A. YES. STARTING FROM THE CLOSEST TO THE CAMERA,
25 OR THE PICTURE, IT WILL BE THE PERSON ALSO KNOWN AS
26 "LITTLE AL." TO HIS RIGHT IT WILL BE MR. DOMINGUEZ, AND
27 IN THE BACK IT WILL BE MR. JONATHAN QUINTANILLA.
28 Q. FROM LOOKING AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH, THEY APPEAR ALL
1723
1 TO BE HOLDING UP THEIR RIGHT FOREARMS.

2 A. YES.
3 Q. THEY ALL HAVE A TATTOO ON THEIR RIGHT FOREARM.
4 A. YES.
5 Q. IS IT ALL THE SAME TATTOO?
6 A. IT IS SIMILAR WHEN IT COMES TO THE WORD "HOOD
7 RAISED." THE THREE OF THEM HAVE -- AND ON THIS PICTURE
..
8 YOU CANNOT APPRECIATE THE VERY BACK ONE, BUT THEY DO HAVE
11
9 THE TWO WORDS THAT SAYS HOOD RAISED" ON THEIR ARMS, AND
10 THAT IS WHAT IS SIMILAR IN THE SAME WRITING AND THE
11 MEANING OF THE WORDS, BUT AS YOU CAN SEE ON THIS PICTURE
12 OF THE PERSON KNOWN AS "LITTLE AL, .. HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY
13 DESIGNS OR ANY ADDITIONAL LETTERS OR NUMBERS TO HIS
14 TATTOO.
15 ON THIS ONE (INDICATING) MR. DOMINGUEZ DOES HAVE
16 A SHELL AT THE END OF THE WRIST AND ANOTHER SEASHELL, THE
17 SIGN, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WORD "HOOD."
18 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN THE TATTOO OF JONATHAN
19 QUINTANILLA, IN THE BACK, BEFORE?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. DOES IT HAVE ANY SHELLS OR INDICIA OF
22 38TH STREET ON IT?
23 A. HE DOES HAVE THE NUMBER 3 AT THE BEGINNING OF
24 THE WORD "H000 11
AND THE NUMBER 8 AT THE END OF THE WORD
25 II RAISED. II

28 \\
1724
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. PEOPLE'S 236 IS A TAGGING PIECE, CORRECT,
3 DETECTIVE?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. THIS IS-- AGAIN, WE CAN SEE THE SHELL, THE 11
3, 11
11 11
6 SHELLTOWN AS WELL AS NAMES?
7 A. YES I
8 Q. IS SPEEDY'S NAME INCLUDED IN THAT GROUP OF NAMES

9 AT THE BOTTOM?
10 A. YES. I SEE 11
CROOKS, 11
"SPEEDY," "ALEX,"
11 "CASPER," "VICTOR" AND "GREEN." I SEE A SEASHELL SIGN IN
12 THE MIDDLE, THE NUMBER 3, THE NUMBER 8, THE LETTER -- THE
11
13 WORD "SHELLTOWN,n IT'S NOT MUSIC," "IT'S FOR REAL," AND
14 IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESIGN OF THE SEASHELL IT SAYS, "EYES
15 ON THE PRIZE."
16 AND THIS SYMBOL HERE (INDICATING), IT REPRESENTS
17 "SURENOS." IT'S PART OF HISPANIC CULTURE WHEN IT COMES TO
18 PRISON GANGS.
19 THE COURT: SPELLING, PLEASE, "SURENOS."
11
20 THE WITNESS: "SURENOS IS S-U-R-E-N-0-S.
21 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, I CAN STOP HERE OR I CAN
22 CONTINUE. I'M GOING INTO THE GDR.
23 THE COURT: IT'S A GOOD T~ME TO TAKE A BREAK.
24 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
25 LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS. LET'S
26 RECONVENE AT 10 MINUTES AFTER THE HOUR OF 3:00, AND THANK
27 YOU. WE ARE IN RECESS.
1725
1 (RECESS TAKEN.)
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, ALL
4 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESEN~. ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY
5 ARE PRESENT. DETECTIVE GASCA IS ON THE WITNESS STAND.
6 MR. TROCHA?
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. DETECTIVE, YESTERDAY WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
10 DOCUMENTATION. IS THERE SOMETHING CALLED A "GANG
11 DOCUMENTATION REPORT"?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
14 A. A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT IS A REPORT THAT WE
15 PREPARE WHEN A PERSON HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR A CRIME OR IS
16 GOING TO APPEAR IN COURT JUST AS A WAY TO SHOW THEIR
17 POLICE CONTACTS.
18 IN THIS REPORT WE OFTEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE
19 CONTACTS THAT ARE GANG RELATED IF WE DO HAVE THE REPORTS
20 AVAILABLE.
21 Q. IS THIS WHERE THE FIELD INTERVIEW OR F.I. CARDS
22 COME INTO PLAY?
23 A. YES. NOT JUST FOR THIS TYPE OF REPORT, BUT THIS
24 IS ONE OF THE REPORTS THAT WE REFER TO THOSE FIELD
25 INTERVIEW CARDS AS WELL AS ARREST REPORTS, INTERVIEWS,
26 JAIL CONTACTS OR ANY TYPE OF DOCUMENT THAT WE HAVE FROM
27 PROBATION, PAROLE THAT WE HAVE' REGARDING THAT INVOLVEMENT
28 OF THIS PERSON WITH A GANG.
1726
1 Q. DID YOU COMPILE A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON

2 FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AS A RESULT OF THAT, ARE YOU ABLE TO SAY WHETHER
5 OR NOT MR. DOMINGUEZ IS A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. IS HE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHICH GANG?
10 A. SHELLTOWN 38.
11 Q. WHEN WAS HE FIRST DOCUMENTED, ACCORDING TO YOUR
12 REPORT?
13 A. I DO NOT HAVE THE EXACT TIME OF THE
14 DOCUMENTATION, BUT REVIEWING THOSE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE IN
15 HIS FILE, HE MET THE CRITERIA FOR A -- TO BE DOCUMENTED AS
16 A MEMBER IN 1997.
17 Q. WHAT WAS THE YEAR OF HIS FIRST DOCUMENTABLE ACT
18 OR THE FIRST TIME HE MET A CRITERIA UNDER THE STANDARDS?
19 A. IN 1995.
20 Q. FROM 1995 TO 2010, HAS FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ
21 STAYED FREE FOR THE FIVE-YEAR WASHOUT PERIOD OF ANY
22 DOCUMENTABLE ACTS?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. UNDERSTANDING YOU CAN'T GO INTO THE DETAILS OF
25 THESE ACTS, HAS MR. DOMINGUEZ BEEN DOCUMENTED ASSOCIATING
26 WITH KNOWN SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. HAS HE CLAIMED SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
1727
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WE'VE SEEN TATTOOS, CORRECT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. HAS HE BEEN IN THE AREA FREQUENTED BY GANG
5 MEMBERS?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. HAS HE BEEN IN THE AREA OF FREQUENT GANG
8 ACTIVITY?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. HAS HE BEEN PRESENT WHEN GANG-RELATED CRIMINAL
11 ACTIVITY WAS CONDUCTED?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS DID YOU SEE THE TERMINOLOGY
14 OF "USED TO KICK IT WITH" OR "USED TO CLAIM"?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DID YOU COUNT THOSE ACTS AS CRITERIA AS WELL?
17 A. DEPENDING ON -- DEPENDING ON THE HISTORY OF THAT
18 PERSON, IF I DO HAVE AN F.I. WHERE HE HAS BEEN CONSTANTLY
19 SAYING, "I JUST USED TO KICK IT WITH," 11
I USED TO HANG OUT
20 WITH THEM," AND I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO SHOW ME LATER ON
21 THAT HE STILL AFFILIATES WITH SOMEBODY, I PROBABLY WOULD
22 NOT USE IT.
23 IF I DO HAVE ANOTHER POLICE REPORT OR A SOURCE
24 OF INFORMATION THAT TELLS ME THAT THAT PERSON IS STILL
25 AFFILIATING, I DO BELIEVE THAT JUST BECAUSE HE SAYS HE
26 USED TO IS NOT BEING TRUTHFUL AND HE STILL HANGS OUT AND
27 ASSOCIATES WITH THEM.
28 Q. IN FACT, ON FEBRUARY 18th OF LAST YEAR, HE WAS
1728
1 FOUND IN THE COMPANY OF CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, CORRECT?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. "VANDAL"?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. AS PART OF THIS REPORT DO YOU ALSO DETAIL HIS
6 MONIKERS?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHAT ARE HIS MONIKERS?
9 A. "CHUNKY" AND "SPEEDY."
10 Q. AND YOU ALSO DETAIL HIS TATTOOS; IS THAT
11 CORRECT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. THOSE ARE THE PHOTOGRAPHS WE'VE SEEN?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. DETECTIVE, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT'S KNOWN AS
..
16 A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION IN YOUR LINE OF WORK?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A HYPOTHETICAL NOW. IN
19 THIS HYPOTHETICAL, LET'S ASSUME THAT EVERYBODY WHO IS
20 NAMED IS A MEMBER OF THE SAME HISPANIC STREET GANG WITHIN
21 SAN DIEGO.
22 A. YES.
23 Q. THERE ARE FOUR MAIN PEOPLE: O.G. 1, O.G. 2,
24 YOUNGSTER 1, AND YOUNGSTER 2.
25 A. YES.
26 Q. O.G. 1 AND O.G. 2 ARE FRIENDS.
27 A. YES.
28 Q. THEY'RE DESCRIBED AS CLOSE FRIENDS, POSSIBLY
1729
1 FAMILY.
2 A. YES.
3 Q. YOUNGSTER 1 IS THE YOUNGER BROTHER OF O.G. 1.
4 YOUNGSTER 2 IS UNRELATED TO ANYBODY IN THIS HYPOTHETICAL.
5 A. YES.
6 Q. ON A DATE, TWO YOUNGER MEMBERS OF THIS GANG,
7 YOUNGSTER 1 AND YOUNGSTER 2, CHECKED AN INDIVIDUAL SEEN
~
8 WITHIN THEIR GANG TERRITORY. DURING THAT CHECKING, THAT

9 INDIVIDUAL PULLED A GUN. YOUNGSTER 2 RAN AWAY.
10 YOUNGSTER 1 STAYED AND WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY THAT
11 INDIVIDUAL.
12 IN THE SAME YEAR, AFTER THIS INCIDENT, THERE IS
13 A GANG PARTY. IT IS A PARTY WHERE ONLY GANG MEMBERS AND
14 THEIR GIRLFRIENDS ARE ALLOWED TO ATTEND. NO NONGANG
15 MEMBERS OR NONMEMBERS OF THIS GANG AT THAT PARTY. DO YOU
16 UNDERSTAND?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. THIS PARTY IS HELD AT A LOCATION THAT IS A KNOWN
19 HANGOUT FOR THIS PARTICULAR GANG. AT THIS PARTY O.G. 2 IS
20 ANGRY WITH YOUNGSTER 2 ABOUT YOUNGSTER 1'S DEATH. WORDS
21 TO THIS EFFECT ARE HEARD.
22 O.G. 2 BEATS YOUNGSTER 2 WITH HIS HANDS AND
23 FISTS. TWO OTHER GANG MEMBERS ARE SEEN ASSISTING IN THIS
24 BEATING. THIS TAKES PLACE IN FULL VIEW OF OTHERS AT THE
25 PARTY. NOBODY BREAKS UP THE BEATING OR ASSISTS
26 YOUNGSTER 2.
27 ONCE THE BEATING STOPS, O.G. 2 AND THE TWO
28 OTHERS ARE SEEN HAVING A SHORT DISCUSSION. AFTER THIS
1730
1 DISCUSSION, O.G. 2 SHOOTS YOUNGSTER 2 MULTIPLE TIMES.

2 YOUNGSTER 2 DIES AS A RESULT.
3 DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION IN THAT SITUATION WHETHER
4 THAT MURDER, THE KILLING, WAS COMMITTED IN ASSOCIATION
5 WITH MEMBERS OF THAT HISPANIC GANG?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHAT IS THE BASIS OF YOUR OPINION?
8 A. THE BASIS OF THAT OPINION IS THAT O.G.
9 O.G. 1, O.G. 2 AND THE REST OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE
10 GATHERED AT THIS LOCATION ARE MEMBERS OF THE GANG, THE
11 SAME GANG. THE CRIME WAS COMMITTED
. BY O.G. 2, WHO HAS THE
12 POWER TO DISCIPLINE ANY OF THE YOUNGSTERS, IN THIS CASE
13 YOUNGSTER 2.
14 ADDITIONALLY TO THAT, TWO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE
15 SAME GANG JOIN INTO THE BEATING OF YOUNGSTER 2. THAT IS A
16 CRIME COMMITTED IN ASSOCIATION AND ULTIMATELY BEING KILLED
17 BY ONE OF THEIR OWN MEMBERS OF THE GANG.
18 Q. NOW, ARE YOU ASSUMING AT THIS PARTY THAT O.G. 1
19 IS PRESENT?
20 A. THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT I HAD UNDERSTOOD.
21 Q. O.G. 1 BEING THE BROTHER OF THE YOUNGSTER 1 WHO
22 WAS KILLED EARLIER.
23 A. OKAY.
24 Q. WOULD YOUR OPINION CHANGE IF O.G. 1 WAS NOT
25 PRESENT AT THIS PARTY?
26 A. NO, NOT NECESSARILY, BECAUSE THERE IS THE REST
27 OF THE GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT ARE ALSO KNOWN AS MEMBERS AND
28 THERE IS THE O.G. THAT IS IN CHARGE OF DISCIPLINING THE
1731
1 YOUNGSTER 2.
2 Q. YOU MENTIONED IN REFERENCE TO THIS HYPOTHETICAL
3 THAT YOU VIEW THIS AS PUNISHMENT. HOW WOULD YOU VIEW THIS
4 AS PUNISHMENT?
5 A. THE WAY I SEE IT'S A PUNISHMENT IS THE FACT --
6 THE FACT THAT O.G. IS THE ONE THAT INITIATED THE BEATING
7 AGAINST ONE OF THEIR OWN. IT USUALLY DOES NOT HAPPEN
8 UNLESS THERE'S A PERSONAL MATTER, FOR INSTANCE, SOMEBODY
9 DATING A GIRLFRIEND, AND THAT WILL BE ONE ON ONE, A GANG
10 MEMBER AGAINST ANOTHER GANG MEMBER.
11 THE FACT THAT OTHER GANG MEMBERS FROM THE SAME
12 GANG JOINED UP AND BEAT UP YOUNGSTER 2, IT MAKES ME
13 BELIEVE THAT O.G. GAVE THEM -- ALLOWED THEM TO ALSO
14 DISCIPLINE ONE OF THE YOUNGSTERS THAT DID NOT ACT AS THEY
15 WERE SUPPOSED TO OR HAVE ONE OF.. THE CODES OR RULES IN THE
16 GANG.
17 Q. UNDER THIS HYPOTHETICAL, WHAT IS YOUNGSTER NO. 2
18 BEING PUNISHED BY O.G. NO. 2 FOR?
19 A. BASED ON THE INITIAL PART OF THE HYPOTHETICAL
20 THAT YOU GAVE ME WHERE YOUNGSTER NO. 1 WAS SHOT AND KILLED
21 AND THE ACTS AND ACTIONS THAT YOUNGSTER 2 DID BY RUNNING
22 AWAY AND NOT BACKING UP, SUPPORTING ONE OF THEIR OWN, IT
23 SHOWS WEAKNESS, IT SHOWS HE'S A COWARD AND HE DOES NOT
24 DESERVE TO BE PART OF THIS GANG.
25 Q. IS A COWARD OR SOMEONE WHO WON'T BACK UP ANOTHER
26 MEMBER VALUABLE TO THE GANG?
27 A. VERY.
28 Q. THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT BACK SOMEONE UP?
1732
1 A. IF IT --
2 Q. MAYBE LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY: A PERSON WHO DOES
3 NOT BACK UP ANOTHER GANG MEMBER, DOES THAT PERSON HAVE ANY
4 VALUE WITHIN THAT GANG?
5 A. DOES NOT HAVE A VALUE.
6 Q. WHY NOT?
7 A. IT'S A COWARD. IT'S A PERSON THEY CANNOT TRUST.
8 IT'S A PERSON THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO RELY ON. IT'S A
9 PERSON THAT DOESN'T DESERVE THAT STATUS IN THE GANG. YOU
10 CANNOT SHOW ANY TYPE OF WEAKNESS IN THE GANG.
11 IF THE GANG IS REPRESENTED BY GANG MEMBERS, YOU
12 DON'T WANT TO BE REPRESENTED AS A WEAK GANG. THE ACTIONS
13 OF THOSE GANG MEMBERS ARE THE STATUS THAT THE GANG IS
14 GOING TO GAIN. IF THEY'RE VIOLENT, THE GANG IS GOING TO
15 BECOME VIOLENT. IF THEY SHOW WEAKNESS, THE GANG IS GOING
16 TO BE PERCEIVED AS A WEAK GANG.
17 ALSO, IF THE GANG TAKES CARE OF THEIR OWN
18 MATTERS AND PROBLEMS IN-HOUSE, IT'S GOING TO BE PERCEIVED
19 AND IT'S GOING TO GAIN THE RESPECT AS BEING KNOWN TO TAKE
20 CARE OF THE PROBLEMS AND GET RID OF THE PERSONS THAT ARE
21 NOT WORTH IT TO HAVE IN THAT GANG.
22 Q. ALSO UNDER THIS SAME SET OF FACTS IN THIS
23 HYPOTHETICAL, WAS THIS KILLING DONE TO BENEFIT THE
24 SPECIFIC HISPANIC STREET GANG IN THE HYPOTHETICAL?
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR A CONCLUSION
26 AS PHRASED.
1733

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. DETECTIVE?
4 A. CAN YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION.
5 Q. SURE. DOES THE KILLING UNDER THIS HYPOTHETICAL
6 FACTUAL SCENARIO BENEFIT THE HISPANIC STREET GANG IN THE
7 HYPOTHETICAL?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. HOW SO?
10 A. IT BENEFITS IN DIFFERENT WAYS. IT BENEFITS THE
11 GANG BECAUSE THE GANG WILL BE ~EEN AS A STRUCTURED GANG,
12 SOMEBODY THAT CAN TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. ALSO
13 IT SHOWS, IN CASE THERE'S ANY OTHER YOUNGSTERS IN THAT
14 GANG OR ANY OTHER MEMBER IN THAT GANG, IT TEACHES THEM A
15 LESSON: "IF YOU DON'T ABIDE BY THE RULES AND CODES THAT
16 WE HAVE IN THIS GANG, YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR THOSE" --
17 "YOU'RE GOING TO PAY THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DOING WHAT
18 YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AND EXPECTED TO DO. IF YOU SHOW
19 WEAKNESS, YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BE IN THIS GANG."
20 ALSO IT BENEFITS THE GANG BECAUSE THE PERCEPTION
21 OF -- AMONG OTHER RIVAL GANGS. THEY KNOW. AND IT'S
22 AMAZING HOW EVERY RIVAL GANG HEARS OF EVERYTHING THAT
23 HAPPENS ON THEIR OPPOSITES. THEY HEAR. THEY KNOW THAT
24 THEY KILLED ONE OF THEIR OWN, AND THEY WILL KNOW THAT THIS
25 PERSON IS VIOLENT, THEY'RE CAPABLE OF KILLING AND THEY
26 WILL TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN IF IT'S NECESSARY.
27 ANOTHER WAY OF BENEFITING THE GANG IS BECAUSE OF
28 THE COMMUNITY. THE COMMUNITY, THE NEIGHBORS, THAT
1734
1 COMMUNITY HEAR ABOUT ALL THESE CRIMES, HEAR ABOUT THE

2 HOMICIDE, KILLING, THAT IT HAPPENED AND THE GANG IN THEIR
3 AREA IS THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS CRIME.
4 NEIGHBORS WILL BE INTIMIDATED. NEIGHBORS WILL
5 KNOW THEY'RE VIOLENT, AND IF THEY KILL ONE OF THEIR OWN,
6 IT WILL TAKE NOTHING TO KILL ONE OF THEM, THEY'RE NOTHING
7 TO THE GANG. THEY'LL FEAR TO CALL THE POLICE ON THEM,
8 TESTIFY IN COURT.
9 AND EVEN IN OTHER COMMUNITIES -- COWORKERS,
10 SCHOOLS, STUDENTS -- THEY TALK. THEY GIVE A REPUTATION TO
11 THIS GANG AS A VIOLENT GANG, AND THAT'S HOW THEY ACQUIRE
12 THAT RESPECT AND FEAR THAT THEY WANT TO INSTILL.
13 Q. WELL, I MEAN, COULDN'T SOMEONE ALSO SAY, "THIS
14 DOESN'T BENEFIT THE GANG BECAUSE YOU'VE KILLED ONE OF YOUR
15 OWN MEMBERS, SO YOU'RE ONE MEMBER LIGHTER NOW"?
16 A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THIS
17 PERSON DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE ONE OF THEM IS NOT GOING TO
18 AFFECT HAVING ONE THAT IS NOT A PERSON THAT HAS THE VALOR
19 OR IS VIOLENT ENOUGH TO REPRESENT THE GANG.
20 THEY'RE NOT LOSING ONE OF THEIR VALUABLE GANG
21 MEMBERS, THEY'RE LOSING SOMEBODY WHO DIDN'T SHOW THAT THEY
22 CAN BE PART OF THE SHELLTOWN GANG, SO I DO NOT BELIEVE
23 THAT IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE GANG AS A WHOLE.
1735
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE.
5 Q. DETECTIVE, YOU HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH
6 SHELLTOWN SPECIFICALLY, RIGHT?
7 A. I DO.
8 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU USED TO LIVE THERE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. YOU LIVED THERE FOR, WHAT, 12 YEARS?
11 A. IN THE AREA -- IN TWO AREAS. I MOVED TWICE
12 WHILE I LIVED THERE, SO A PERIOD OF 12 YEARS.
13 Q. THIS IS BEFORE YOU BECAME A POLICE OFFICER OR
14 DURING?
15 A. I BECAME A POLICE OFFICER IN I STARTED THE
16 ACADEMY IN 1999. I GRADUATED IN 2000. I LIVED -- I
17 DIDN'T MOVE OUT OF THERE UNTIL 2001, SO I WAS ALREADY A
18 POLICE OFFICER WORKING IN THAT AREA WHEN I WAS STILL
19 LIVING IN THAT AREA.
20 Q. SO PARTIALLY WHILE YOU'RE NOT A POLICE OFFICER
21 AND THEN PARTIALLY WHEN YOU STILL ARE?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. AND SO YOUR KNOWLEDGE WHEN IT COMES TO GANGS AND
24 GANG ACTIVITY ISN'T JUST BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A
25 POLICE OFFICER THEN, RIGHT?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. NO, IT IS OR NO, IT ISN'T?
28 A. NO, IT'S NOT JUST BASED ON MY POLICE EXPERIENCE,
1736
1 MY KNOWLEDGE OF THE GANG.

2 Q. IT'S BASED ON MORE THAN THAT
3 A. OH, MORE THAN THAT, YES.
4 Q. -- RIGHT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. IT'S BASED ON YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCE?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. YOU DIDN'T GROW UP IN SAN DIEGO, RIGHT?
9 A. I DID NOT.
10 Q. WHERE DID YOU GROW UP?
11 A. I WAS BORN IN LOS ANGELES AND THEN I MOVED TO
~
12 TIJUANA, MEXICO, AND I GREW UP AND ATTENDED A SCHOOL IN

13 MEXICO, AND I CAME BACK TO SAN DIEGO IN 1988.
14 Q. DO THEY HAVE GANGS IN LOS ANGELES?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. PRETTY OBVIOUS QUESTION, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. YOU HAD PERSONAL EXPERIENCE -- I DON'T MEAN YOU
19 WERE IN A GANG, BUT YOU OBSERVED GANG ACTIVITY WHEN YOU
20 WERE IN LOS ANGELES, RIGHT?
21 A. NOT WHEN I WAS IN LOS ANGELES, BUT UNFORTUNATELY
22 I DO HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS THAT ARE MEMBERS OF GANGS IN
23 LOS ANGELES.
24 Q. AND TIJUANA HAS GANGS TOO?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. SO YOU LIVED IN TIJUANA FOR HOW LONG?
27 A. I LIVED IN TIJUANA UNTIL I WAS 17 YEARS OLD.
28 Q. UNTIL YOU WERE -- SO YOU MOVED OUT WHEN YOU WERE
1737
1 17?
2 A. I'M SORRY. I THINK I WAS 18 YEARS OLD.
3 Q. 18?
4 A. UH-HUH.
5 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE IN TIJUANA, YOU OBSERVED GANG
6 ACTIVITY THERE AS WELL, RIGHT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. YOU SAID YOU HAVE SOME FAMILY WHO ARE IN GANGS?
9 A. I HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS THAT HAVE JOINED THE GANGS
10 IN LOS ANGELES AND ALSO IN TIJUANA.
11 Q. OKAY. AS A POLICE OFFICER WITH THE SAN DIEGO
12 POLICE DEPARTMENT -- YOU HAVEN'T WORKED ANYWHERE ELSE AS A
13 POLICE OFFICER, RIGHT?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. JUST SAN DIEGO?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. YOU ALSO WERE A PATROL OFFICER BEFORE YOU WERE A
18 DETECTIVE, RIGHT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?
21 A. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PATROL AND A DETECTIVE?
22 Q. CORRECT.
23 A. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PATROL AND DETECTIVE, AS
24 A PATROL OFFICER THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME YOU WILL BE IN A
25 UNIFORM WORKING, ASSIGNED TO A BEAT OR A SPECIFIC
26 DIVISION, A FULL UNIFORM AND MARKED POLICE CAR, WHICH IS A
27 PATROL VEHICLE. YOU'RE ASSIGNED TO A SPECIFIC AREA OF
28 THIS DIVISION. YOU RESPOND TO ANY TYPE OF CALLS THAT ARE
1738
1 IN THIS AREA, INCLUDING SHOOTINGS, INCLUDING RAPES,

2 STABBINGS, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, LOST CHILD, PETTY THEFTS,
3 BURGLARIES, AUTO THEFTS -- ANY TYPE OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY
4 THAT OCCURS OR ANY TYPE OF CALL WHERE A CITIZEN REQUESTS
5 THE POLICE TO BE PRESENT, WE'LL BE RESPONDING TO THOSE
6 CALLS.
7 Q. DETECTIVE, LET ME INTERRUPT YOU.
~
WHAT I'M
8 GETTING AT IS WHEREAS A DETECTIVE INVESTIGATES CRIMES THAT
9 HAVE SORT OF ALREADY HAPPENED, RIGHT, A PATROL OFFICER
10 RESPONDS TO CRIMES THAT ARE EITHER IN PROGRESS OR JUST
11 HAPPENED A SHORT TIME AGO?
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. AS A PATROL OFFICER, YOU
14 WORKED IN SHELLTOWN?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. YOU WERE ACTUALLY ASSIGNED THAT BEAT?
17 A. I WAS.
18 Q. SO YOU WORKED THERE FOR HOW LONG AS A PATROL
19 OFFICER?
20 A. WHEN YOU WORK PATROL YOU MOVE TO DIFFERENT
21 BEATS, NOT SPECIFICALLY FIVE YEARS ON THE SAME BEAT. YOU
22 CAN MOVE FROM THE SOUTHERN PART OF SHELLTOWN TO THE NORTH
23 PART OF SHELLTOWN TO THE EAST SIDE IN THE SAME DIVISION.
24 YOU CAN EVEN MOVE ONE DAY BECAUSE THERE'S THE NEED; AN
25 OFFICER THAT WORKS A SPECIFIC BEAT TOOK THE DAY OFF AND
26 THERE'S MORE CALLS IN A SPECIFIC AREA, SO YOU PROBABLY
27 WILL BE ASSIGNED TO A DIFFERENT AREA.
28 SO I CANNOT SAY THAT FOR FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS I
1739
1 DID WORK ONLY AND SOLELY THE BEAT OF SHELLTOWN.

2 Q. BUT IT WAS FIVE YEARS AS A PATROL OFFICER, AND
3 YOU'D FIND YOURSELF IN SHELLTOWN QUITE A BIT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. LOOKING AT PROSECUTION'S EXHIBIT -- IT WOULD BE
6 3.
7 MR. TROCHA: NO, NO, NO.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO?
9 MR. TROCHA: THE DARKER ORANGE ON THE TOP.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OH, THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
12 Q. 265.
13 A. YES.
14 Q. DID YOU SAY THAT -- EARLIER, THAT THE BORDER IS
15 TO THE -- WHAT WOULD BE -- EAST WOULD BE 46th OR
16 47th STREET?
17 A. EAST OF 46th, AND THE REASON I SAY THAT IS
18 BECAUSE OF THE RECENT FIGHTS AND CONFLICTS THAT WE'VE BEEN
19 HAVING WITH THE GANGS OF O.E.K. 46th STREET AND MEMBERS
20 OF THE SHELLTOWN GANG FIGHTING OVER THAT TERRITORY AND
21 SHELLTOWN CLAIMING THAT AS THEIR TERRITORY, AND THAT'S HOW
22 I LEARNED THAT THEY HAVE EXPANDED FURTHER EAST.
~
23 Q. THAT WOULD BE THIS TERRITORY HERE, WHAT WE SEE

24 IN THE SHELLTOWN NEIGHBORHOOD MARKED OFF IN QUADRANTS,
25 WHAT WOULD BE THE TOP RIGHT QUADRANT ON PROSECUTION 265,
26 RIGHT?
27 A. YES, WITH ONE -- I WOULD NOT INCLUDE ALL THE WAY
28 TO THE VERY FAR CORNER, BUT I WILL INCLUDE THE SOUTHERN
1740
1 PART OR HALPWAY WHERE T STREET IS AND OCEAN VIEW.

2 DO YOU SEE WHERE OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD IS?
3 Q. HERE AND --
4 A. JUST NORTH OF T STREET IS OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD.
5 Q. RIGHT HERE, ABOVE WHERE IT SAYS
11 11
6 JOHN F. KENNEDY ? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO?
7 A. NO, TO THE WEST, THREE BLOCKS TO THE WEST.
8 Q. ONE, TWO, THREE (INDICATING)?
9 A. YES. I WOULD SAY THAT IS THE KNOWN TERRITORY
10 THAT IS BEING CLAIMED BY SHELLTOWN, FROM OCEAN VIEW SOUTH
11 TO THE PARK, THE HENDERSON RECREATION CENTER.
12 Q. THIS PART BETWEEN OCEAN VIEW AND THE HENDERSON
13 RECREATION CENTER, JUST WEST OF WHAT WOULD BE THE 805,
14 THAT REGION IS PART OF SHELLTOWN?
15 A. THAT IS BEING CLAIMED BY SHELLTOWN, BUT IT'S
16 ALSO SHARED WITH OTHER GANGS.
17 Q. SO THERE'S A CONTROVERSY AS TO WHO THAT PIECE OF
18 LAND BELONGS TO?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
21 SHELLTOWN, THERE'S SORT OF TWO THINGS THAT WE COULD
22 POSSIBLY BE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT?
23 A. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SHELLTOWN?
24 Q. WHEN ANYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE WORD
11
25 SHELLTOWN."
26 A. OH, YES.
27 Q. THERE'S THE GANG SHELLTOWN
28 A. YES.
1741
1 Q. -- WHICH PROBABLY, NOT COINCIDENTLY, IS IN THE

2 NEIGHBORHOOD OF SHELLTOWN, RIGHT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. IS THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF SHELLTOWN -- DOES IT HAVE
5 EXACT BORDERS, OR IS IT JUST KIND OF THIS AREA
6 (INDICATING)?
7 A. NO, IT'S NOT JUST TH~T AREA. THE AREA KNOWN AS
8 THE COMMUNITY OF SHELLTOWN IS TO THE SOUTHERN PART OF WHAT
9 IS CLAIMED BY THE GANG OF SHELLTOWN.
10 AND YOU SEE WHERE -- FROM DIVISION UP NORTH TO
11 WHERE --
12 Q. (INDICATING)?
13 A. NO, NOT ALL THE WAY I'M SORRY -- TO -- LET'S
14 SEE. WHERE IS THE STREET? -- TO SOME PART OF NATIONAL TO
15 THE WEST SIDE. ALSO WE HAVE THE COMMUNITY OF SOUTH CREST
16 PARK, AND WE ALSO HAVE THE COMMUNITY TO THE NORTH OF
17 MOUNTAIN VIEW. SO THERE'S THREE COMMUNITIES IN THE
18 TERRITORY THAT IS BEING CLAIMEp BY SHELLTOWN, THAT GANG.
19 Q. OKAY. AND THAT WOULD BE THIS TERRITORY, THE ONE
20 THAT'S IN CONTROVERSY, THE ONE IN THE TOP RIGHT QUADRANT
21 OF THIS EXHIBIT AND LIKE YOU SAID, BELOW OCEAN VIEW?
22 A. I WOULD SAY TO THE WEST. THE TERRITORY
23 ACTUALLY -- OR THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU ARE CIRCLING AROUND
24 OCEAN VIEW AND 46th, 47th, THAT'S KNOWN AS
25 LINCOLN PARK.
26 Q. LINCOLN PARK?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. THANK YOU. DETECTIVE, YOU WENT TO COLLEGE -- IS
1742
1 IT SOUTHWESTERN?
2 A. SOUTHWESTERN COMMUNITY COLLEGE.
3 Q. IT'S IN SAN DIEGO?
4 A. YES, IN THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO AND THE CITY THE
5 CHULA VISTA.
6 Q. THE CITY OF CHULA VISTA. SO YOU STUDIED -- YOU
7 GOT AN ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE THERE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHAT DID YOU STUDY? DID YOU HAVE A MAJOR?
10 A. I HAD A MAJOR IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE. I HAD
11 OBTAINED MY DEGREE AND GENERAL'STUDIES WITH THE
12 ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.
13 Q. OKAY. YOU TOOK SOME PSYCHOLOGY OR SOCIOLOGY
14 COURSES AS WELL?
15 A. THE BASIC COURSES OF PSYCHOLOGY AND SOCIOLOGY.
16 Q. NO HIGH-LEVEL COURSES, JUST INTRO COURSES,
17 THINGS LIKE THAT?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT YOUR BASIS OF
20 KNOWLEDGE ON GANGS IS MOSTLY BASED ON EXPERIENCE, PERSONAL
21 AND PROFESSIONAL, AS A POLICE OFFICER, RIGHT?
22 A. THE MAJORITY IS.
23 Q. THE MAJORITY?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IT'S NOT AN ACADEMIC DISCIPLINE FOR YOU OR
27 A. BASED ON THE COURSES THAT I HAVE RECEIVED AND
28 THE KNOWLEDGE THAT I ACQUIRED DURING THOSE PSYCHOLOGY AND
1743
1 SOCIOLOGY CLASSES THAT I HAVE ATTENDED, I HAVE A BETTER

2 UNDERSTANDING OF THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND THE GANG CULTURE,
3 AND THAT 1 S THE WAY THAT I HAVE APPLIED THE EDUCATIONAL
..
4 LEVEL TO MY EXPERIENCE.
5 Q. YOU HAVEN 1 T PUBLISHED ANY ACADEMIC WORKS ON
6 GANGS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. YOU HAVEN 1 T TAKEN ANY CLASSES SPECIFICALLY ON
9 SOCIOLOGY OF GANGS OR PSYCHOLOGY OF GANG MEMBERS OR
11 A. I HAVE TAKEN SOCIOLOGY -- PSYCHOLOGY CLASSES ON
12 HIGH-RISK JUVENILES, AND THAT WAS TAKEN DOWN IN MEXICO
13 ALSO AS AN INTRO LEVEL COURSE.
14 Q. 1
SO WHEN YOU RE TALKING ABOUT THAT THESE CLASSES
15 HELPED YOU, YOU 1 RE TALKING ABOUT USING THE CONCEPTS YOU
16 LEARNED IN YOUR INTRO LEVEL COURSES AND SORT OF APPLYING
17 THEM TO WHAT YOU DO NOW?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. LET 1 S TALK ABOUT GANGS JUST IN GENERAL FOR A
20 MOMENT. AM I OVERGENERALIZING WHEN I SAY GANGS AND GANG
21 MEMBERS GET INTO A LOT OF FIGHTS?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. WELL, IN ORDER TO GET INTO A GANG, YOU HAVE TO
24 GET JUMPED IN, RIGHT?
1
25 A. NOT NECESSARILY, BUT THAT S ONE OF THE WAYS THAT
26 YOU JOIN THE GANG.
~ 27 Q. HOW ELSE CAN YOU JOIN?
28 A. YOU CAN ALSO JOIN THE GANG BY SHOWING OR BEING
1744
1 INVOLVED IN A PATTERN OF VIOLENT CRIMINAL ACTS WHERE THOSE

2 GANG MEMBERS HAVE WITNESSED THE ACTIVITY THAT YOU HAD
3 COMMITTED FOR THE BENEFIT OR THAT GANG, A SPECIFIC GANG,
4 AND FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE GANG MEMBERS. THAT WILL BE A
5 WAY OF ACCEPTANCE; THEY TAKE YOU IN AS A PART OF THEM
6 WITHOUT THE JUMP-IN.
7 ALSO YOU GET A PASS WHEN YOU'RE A FAMILY MEMBER.
8 SOMETIMES YOUR FATHER IS A GANG MEMBER AND THEY KNOW YOU
9 SINCE YOU WERE THREE YEARS OLD AND FIVE YEARS OLD AND
10 YOU'VE BEEN HANGING AROUND WITH THE FRIENDS OF YOUR
11 FATHER, AND THOSE GANG MEMBERS KNOW YOU AND THEY KNOW THEY
12 CAN TRUST YOU. THEY TRUST -- ESPECIALLY IF THAT FATHER,
13 BROTHER OR RELATIVE HAS DEVELOPED THAT RESPECT AND
14 ACQUIRED THAT STATUS OF O.G. OR OLDER GANGSTER IN THE
15 GANG, SO YOU WOULD BE ACCEPTED AS ONE OF THEM.
16 Q. WELL, AREN'T THERE THINGS CALLED "JUMP-OUTS"
17 TOO?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WHAT IS A JUMP-OUT?
20 A. A JUMP-OUT IS A WAY -- A TYPE OF PUNISHMENT.
21 WHEN THE GANG BELIEVES THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER ONE OF THEM
22 BECAUSE YOU HAVE VIOLATED ONE OF THE RULES, YOU'LL GET
23 JUMPED OUT. IT INCLUDES THE SAME WAY AS INITIATION WHERE
24 THEY -- A COUPLE MEMBERS OF THE GANG WILL BEAT YOU IN AND
25 IN THIS CASE, AS A JUMP-OUT, THEY'LL BEAT YOU OUT.
26 USUALLY IT'S MORE SEVERE WHEN IT'S A JUMP-OUT.
27 Q. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY KICK YOU OUT OF THE GANG,
28 AND BEFORE THEY DO, THEY GIVE YOU ONE MORE BEAT-UP, RIGHT?
1745
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT ABOUT CHECKS?
3 A. CHECKS IN BETWEEN THE GANG?
4 Q. WHAT'S "CHECKING" SOMEBODY?
5 A. CHECKING IS A WAY OF SAYING -- IT CAN BE
6 PERCEIVED -- IT CAN BE DEFINED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. IF A
7 GANG MEMBER IS CHECKING SOMEBODY ELSE, IT'S A WAY TO
8 CHALLENGE THAT PERSON. IT'S A SIGN OF DISRESPECT; IT'S A
9 WAY TO START AN ALTERCATION OR A FIGHT; IT'S A WAY TO SHOW
10 THEM THAT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT'S RULING IN THAT AREA AND
11 WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE.
12 TO BE CHECKED BY ONE OF YOUR OWN USUALLY
13 INVOLVES BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT
14 ACCEPTABLE BY THE GANG AND YOU'LL BE PUNISHED OR
15 DISCIPLINED FOR THAT -- THOSE ACTIONS.
16 Q. USUALLY A GANG MEMBER CHECKS SOMEBODY IN A RIVAL
17 GANG, RIGHT?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WHEN THEY'RE SAYING "CHECK,n THEY'RE CHECKING TO
20 SEE IF THAT PERSON IS, IN FACT, A RIVAL GANG MEMBER,
21 RIGHT?
22 A. NOT ALWAYS A RIVAL GANG
.. MEMBER. THEY CAN
23 CHECK -- THEY CAN CHECK ANYONE. THEY CAN CHECK A PERSON
24 WHO'S AN OLDER -- I HAVE OLDER VICTIMS OF CRIMES BY GANG
25 MEMBERS THAT ARE 60 YEARS OLD THAT HAVE NO APPEARANCE OF
26 BEING A GANG MEMBER, LADIES, KIDS THAT HAVE NOTHING IN
27 RELATION TO A GANG THAT ARE BEING CHECKED BY THIS GANG AND
28 THEY'VE BEEN APPROACHED AND ASKED WHERE THEY'RE FROM.
1746
1 THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO RELATION TO ANY OTHER GANGS THAT THEY

2 CAN CLAIM, AND THEY ARE STILL GOING TO SUFFER A
3 CONSEQUENCE.
4 Q. WHEN THEY'RE ASKING 11
WHERE YOU FROM? 11 AREN'T
5 THEY ASKING WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD YOU'RE FROM?
6 A. WHEN THEY ASK "WHERE YOU FROM?" REALLY, IT'S
7 NOT BECAUSE THEY REALLY WANT TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU'RE
8 FROM, IT'S JUST A WAY TO CHALLENGE YOU; IT'S A WAY TO
9 INSULT YOU; IT'S A WAY TO START AN ALTERCATION; IT'S
10 JUST -- IT'S A CHALLENGE TO A FIGHT, SEE WHAT YOUR
11 RESPONSE IS GOING TO BE.
11
12 Q. WHERE YOU FROM?" YOU KNOW -- FOR EXAMPLE, IF A
13 GANG MEMBER FROM LOGAN DOESN'T GET ALONG WITH A GANG
14 MEMBER FROM, SAY, O.E.K., AND THEY'RE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD
..
15 OF LOGAN, THEY SEE SOMEBODY THAT THEY THINK MIGHT BE IN
16 O.E.K., AND HE SAYS, "HEY, WHERE YOU FROM?" HE'S TRYING TO
17 FIND OUT IF HE IS IN FACT IN THAT RIVAL GANG SO THEY KNOW
18 WHETHER OR NOT TO BEAT THAT PERSON UP, RIGHT?
19 A. YES, IT COULD BE POSSIBLE THAT THEY REALLY DON'T
20 KNOW WHO THAT PERSON IS, AND ALSO IT'S HAPPENED THAT NOT
21 EVERY SINGLE GANG MEMBER IS AN O.G., AN OLDER GANG MEMBER
22 THAT IS NOT -- DOESN'T ASSOCIATE AS MUCH AS A YOUNGSTER OR
23 PUTTING IN WORK AS MUCH AS THE YOUNGSTERS. THEY MIGHT NOT
24 RECOGNIZE ONE OF THE YOUNG ONES, AND HE WILL COME UP TO
25 THIS YOUNG GUY AND SAY, "WHERE YOU FROM?" BECAUSE HE
26 DOESN'T RECOGNIZE HIM, AND IT COULD BE A LEGITIMATE
27 QUESTION.
28 Q. MEANING THAT IF THE GUY WHO IS BEING ASKED
1747
1 "WHERE YOU FROM?" SAYS, "I'M" -- YOU KNOW, "I'M PART OF

2 THE GANG, YOU KNOW, I'M SO-AND-SO. I WAS JUMPED IN. I'M
3 A MEMBER," THEN MAYBE THAT PERSON IS GOING TO BE OKAY? I
4 MEAN, THEY'RE, LIKE, "OH, OKAY. THAT'S FINE. I'M NOT
5 GOING TO BEAT YOU UP NOW," RIGHT?
6 A. YEAH, THAT'S CORRECT, IF THEY IDENTIFY AS
7 O.E.K. WELL, IF THEY SAY LOGAN, IT'S NOT GOING TO GO
8 WELL, BUT IF IT'S ANOTHER O.E.K., HE SAYS, "OH, IT'S ONE
9 OF US," THEY WILL SHAKE HANDS AND THEY WILL INTRODUCE EACH
10 OTHER.
11 Q. SOMETIMES -- ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS THE PERSON WHO'S
12 BEING ASKED COULD SAY, "I DON'T BANG," RIGHT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. "I DON'T BANG" MEANS "I'M NOT A MEMBER OF A
15 GANG, SO I'M OKAY. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BEAT ME UP," RIGHT?
16 A. THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE HOPING, YES.
17 Q. AND A LOT OF TIMES THE PERSON WHO'S DOING THE
18 ASKING, THAT'S ACTUALLY AN ACCEPTABLE
.. ANSWER IF THEY
19 BELIEVE THEM, RIGHT?
20 A. I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT IN -- I WOULD SAY PROBABLY
21 IN 99 PERCENT OF MY CASES WHERE THE CHALLENGERS HAVE ASKED
11
22 THE VICTIMS "WHERE YOU FROM? REGARDLESS OF THE ANSWER,
23 THEY'RE GOING TO PROCEED WHERE THERE IS -- ROB THEM, BEAT
24 THEM UP, SHOOT THEM, STAB THEM OR DO WHATEVER INTENTION
25 THEY HAVE, CHASE THEM, DO SOME SORT OF VIOLENT CRIME.
26 Q. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT IF I WAS IN SHELLTOWN AND
11
27 SOMEBODY ASKED ME WHERE I WAS FROM AND I SAID, I DON'T
11
28 BANG, THAT WOULDN'T GET ME OUT OF THE BEAT-DOWN?
1748
1 A. PROBABLY NOT.
2 Q. WHY WOULD SOMEBODY SAY, "I DON'T BANG"? WHY
3 WOULDN'T THEY JUST 'FESS UP OR RUN AWAY? WHY WOULD THEY
4 HAVE THAT COMMENT AT ALL?
5 A. BECAUSE THERE IS HONEST PEOPLE THAT ARE VICTIMS
6 AND THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT -- DON'T HAVE ANY GANG
7 AFFILIATION THAT ARE CONFRONTED BY THESE GANG MEMBERS. SO
8 ]EVEN IF THAT'S A LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN WHO LIVES IN THAT
9 COMMUNITY AND THE COMMUNITY IS FROM SHELLTOWN, HE DOESN'T
10 ASSOCIATE WITH SHELLTOWN OR ANY OTHER GANG MEMBERS, HE'S
11 NOT GOING TO CLAIM THAT HE'S FROM SHELLTOWN WHEN HE'S NOT.
12 THAT WOULD BE ALSO A SIGN OF DISRESPECT, TO
13 CLAIM SHELLTOWN WHEN YOU'RE NOT. YOU CANNOT CLAIM ANY
14 PART OF THE GANG WHEN YOU'RE NOT. THEY COULD BE THEY'RE
15 HONEST, AND IT ALSO COULD BE IT IS A GANG MEMBER AND HE
16 KNOWS THAT HE'S GOING TO GET BEAT UP OR ASSAULTED, AND HE
17 PREFERS NOT TO SAY ANYTHING.
18 Q. BUT, YOU KNOW, I GUESS IN SUMMARY THE TERM
19 "WHERE YOU FROM?" OR THE QUESTION "WHERE YOU FROM?" IS
20 MOSTLY A GANG CHALLENGE TO A RIVAL GANG?
21 A. YES.
23 WHEN YOU'RE DECIDING WHETHER SOMEBODY'S IN A
24 GANG, YOU REVIEW SOMETHING CALLED FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS,
25 RIGHT?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AGAIN, JUST REMIND THE JURY, WHAT ARE FIELD
28 INTERVIEW CARDS?
1749
~ 1 A. FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS ARE THOSE FORMS OF --

2 POLICE FORMS THAT WE CARRY OUT IN THE FIELD AND WE'LL FILL
3 OUT WITH THE INFORMATION OF THE PERSON THAT WE'RE TALKING
4 TO OR MAKING CONTACT WITH.
5 Q. SO A GANG MEMBER WHO'S PUTTING IN WORK ACTIVELY
6 WOULD HAVE PROBABLY A LOT OF FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS?
7 A. SOMETIMES THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH.
8 Q. OKAY. BUT YOU'D EXPECT SOME?
9 A. FOR THE MOST -- FOR THE MOST PART, YOU SEE THE
10 NAMES, YOU HEAR THE NAMES. SOMETIMES YOU DON'T SEE THOSE
11 FIELD REPORTS, BUT YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM. I HAVE CASES
12 WHERE THEY'RE VERY ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS AND YOU DON'T SEE
13 THOSE F.I.'S FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
14 I RECEIVE A STACK, ABOUT THIS MUCH (INDICATING)
15 F.I.'S, ON A WEEKLY BASIS, AND SOMETIMES I DON'T HAVE THE
16 CHANCE TO REVIEW ALL OF THEM IN ONE WEEK, SO IT MIGHT BE
17 IN THE BOTTOM OF MY STACK AND I NEVER SEE THEM.
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS WAS
19 MAKING ABOUT A THREE-INCH GAP BETWEEN HER THUMB AND
20 FINGERS.
22 THE COURT: IS THAT ABOUT RIGHT?
26 Q. SO THE WAY THIS WORKS IS YOU OR ANOTHER POLICE
27 OFFICER, PATROL OFFICER, DETECTIVE, WHAT HAVE YOU, WILL
28 MAKE A CONTACT WITH SOMEBODY -- MAYBE THEY'RE A GANG
1750
1 MEMBER -- AND IF THEY MEET ONE OF THE FIVE CRITERIA, THEY

2 WILL WRITE UP A FIELD INTERVIEW CARD AND SUBMIT IT TO THE
3 GANG SUPPRESSION UNIT?
4 A. NOT ALWAYS.
5 Q. SOMETIMES THEY DON'T WRITE A FIELD INTERVIEW
6 CARD?
7 A. SOMETIMES THEY DON'T~WRITE A FIELD INTERVIEW
8 CARD. SOMETIMES THE OFFICERS DO NOT KNOW OF ALL THE
9 CRITERIA THAT IS REQUIRED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND
10 OUR POLICY WITH SAN DIEGO, AND THAT'S SOMETHING YOU LEARN
11 ONCE YOU WORK WITH A GANG ON A REGULAR BASIS.
12 THEY DON'T WRITE ANY OF THE CRITERIA. SOMETIMES
13 THEY DO NOT WRITE ANY OF THEIR TATTOOS. SOMETIMES THEY
14 DON'T EVEN WRITE THEIR COMPANIONS.
15 Q. WELL, I GUESS A BETTER QUESTION WOULD HAVE BEEN:
16 THAT'S THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK, RIGHT?
17 A. THAT SHOULD BE, YES, IDEAL.
18 Q. WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT SOMETIMES THE PATROL
19 OFFICERS JUST DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE TO
20 DO IT CORRECTLY?
21 A. OR THE TIME, YES.
22 Q. A FIELD INTERVIEW CARD WILL -- LET ME BACK UP.
23 WHAT GOES INTO A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT FOR A
24 CASE LIKE THIS, OR ANY OTHER CASE, IS NOT JUST FIELD
25 INTERVIEW CARDS THOUGH, RIGHT?
26 A. WHEN IT COMES TO DOCUMENTING SOMEBODY?
27 Q. NO, NOT DOCUMENTING SOMEBODY. WHEN YOU WRITE A
28 GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT TO GIVE, SAY, THE DISTRICT
1751
1 ATTORNEY ON A CASE, YOU'RE GOING TO WRITE UP ALL THE FIELD

2 INTERVIEW CARDS, POLICE REPORTS, BASICALLY ANY INFORMATION
3 FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT, NOT JUST FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS?
4 A. I DO NOT WRITE EVERY SINGLE FIELD CARD OR ARREST
5 REPORT, AND THE REASON I DON'T IS BECAUSE I LIKE TO SUBMIT
6 MOST OF THOSE ORIGINAL COPIES OF THOSE REPORTS. SOME OF
7 THEM, WHEN THEY'RE OLD, WE DON'T HAVE THEM ANYMORE. THE
8 SYSTEM PURGES THOSE NAMES. RECORDS ONLY KEEPS FIELD
9 INTERVIEWS BACK TO 2005.
10 SO IF I DON'T HAVE THOSE FIELD INTERVIEWS IN THE
'
11 FILE OF THAT PERSON, I MIGHT CHOOSE NOT TO WRITE IT
12 BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE REPORT TO BACK UP WHAT I'M
13 WRITING.
14 Q. FAIR ENOUGH. ON THESE FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS
15 YOU'D EXPECT TO SEE THE DATE, RIGHT, THE DATE THE CONTACT
16 WAS MADE?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. THE NAME OF THE PERSON CONTACTED?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. IF THEY WERE WITH A KNOWN GANG MEMBER OR GANG
21 ASSOCIATE, THAT PERSON'S NAME?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. THE DATES OF BIRTH FOR ALL PEOPLE INVOLVED?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. THE NAME OF THE GANG THAT WAS BEING CLAIMED?
26 A. NOT ALWAYS.
27 Q. BUT SOMETIMES?
28 A. SOMETIMES.
1752
1 Q. IF THE NAME OF THE GANG IS CLAIMED, THAT WOULD

2 BE SOMETHING THAT THE OFFICERS WHO MAKE THE CONTACT WOULD
3 BE TRAINED TO PUT IN THE FIELD'INTERVIEW CARD, RIGHT?
4 A. I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT'S PART OF THE TRAINING
5 WHEN YOU FILL OUT AN INTERVIEW CARD AS TO WHAT TO WRITE IN
6 THE NARRATIVE. THAT'S AT THE DISCRETION OF THE OFFICER.
7 WHETHER THAT PERSON WAS INVOLVED IN DOMESTIC
8 VIOLENCE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE GANG, AND
9 HE'S A GANG MEMBER, HE MIGHT BE A COMPANION OF ANOTHER
10 GANG MEMBER, BUT THE REASON FOR THE CONTACT IS NOT A
11 GANG-RELATED CONTACT, SO HE MIGHT NOT WRITE ANYTHING THAT
12 IS GANG RELATED IN THAT, EVEN THOUGH HE MIGHT HAVE
13 KNOWLEDGE OF THIS GANG MEMBER. SO IT COULD BE THAT
14 THERE'S NOTHING GANG RELATED WRITTEN ON AN F.I.
'
15 Q. ALL RIGHT. FAIR ENOUGH.
16 AND IF YOU GET -- YOU GET A STACK OF F.I. 'S, YOU
17 SAID, LIKE EVERY DAY OR EVERY WEEK OR EVERY MONTH OR
18 SOMETHING?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND YOU USE THAT TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO
21 YOU MAKE DECISIONS SUCH AS "SHOULD I DOCUMENT THIS
22 PERSON, II RIGHT?
23 A. NOT JUST BASED ON THE FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS;
24 ALSO ON POLICE REPORTS, INFORMATION I GATHER FROM THE
25 STREETS, CITIZENS, OTHER GANG MEMBERS, ACTIVITY IN THE
26 COMMUNITY, OFFICERS' INFORMATION, SOMEBODY BRINGING THE
r 27 ATTENTION OF THAT SPECIFIC GANG MEMBER. THAT'S HOW I
28 START WITH THE PROCESS OF THE DOCUMENTATION.
1753
1 Q. WELL, SUFFICE IT TO SAY THAT YOU -- IN THE GANG

2 SUPPRESSION UNIT, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO DOCUMENT THEM,
3 PUT THEM IN THE CAL-GANG DATABASE?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. AND YOU USE -- ONE OF THE THINGS YOU USE IS YOU
6 LOOK AT THE FIELD INTERVIEW CARD, YOU SEE IF THEY'VE MET
7 ANY OF THE CRITERIA, AND THEN IF THEY DO AND IT'S
8 SUFFICIENT UNDER THE DEPARTMENT POLICIES, YOU DOCUMENT
9 THEM, RIGHT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. IF THEY'RE ALREADY DOCUMENTED AND YOU GET A
12 FIELD INTERVIEW CARD ON THEM, YOU CAN ENTER THAT IN THIS
13 "CRITERIA MET" IN THAT FIELD INTERVIEW CARD, YOU CAN ADD
14 IT TO THE CAL-GANG DATABASE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. THESE CRITERIA ARE, JUST TO NAME A FEW,
17 SELF-ADMISSION, RIGHT?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. MEANING "I'M IN O.E.K." OR "I'M IN WICKED
20 CLOWNS" OR "I KICK IT WITH SUCH AND SUCH A GANG"?
21 A. THAT COULD BE A WAY, ADMITTED TO BE A GANG
22 MEMBER, YES.
23 Q. ASSOCIATION WITH OTHER GANG MEMBERS, MEANING
24 THEY'RE SEEN WITH PEOPLE WHO YOU ALREADY KNOW ARE IN A
25 GANG?
26 A. THAT I DO KNOW, YES.
27 Q. FREQUENTING AN AREA KNOWN TO BE FREQUENTED BY
28 GANG MEMBERS?
1754
1 A. YES, TO THOSE SPECIFIC AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN

2 IDENTIFIED AS HANGOUTS.
3 Q. INVOLVEMENT IN A GANG CRIME?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, IF SOMEONE IS CAUGHT JUMPING
6 SOMEBODY IN, THAT WOULD BE A GANG CRIME?
7 A. IF IT'S -- YES, FOR THE MOST PART, IT WILL BE.
8 Q. GRAFFITI
9 A. YES.
10 Q. -- OF YOUR GANG
11 A. YES.
12 Q. -- IS A GANG CRIME?
13 ONE OF THE OTHERS IS GANG TATTOOS?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. GANG CLOTHING IS ANOTHER CRITERIA?
16 A. WHEN IT COMES TO HISPANIC GANGS, GANG CLOTHING,
17 I DO NOT USE THAT. WE DO HAVE SPECIFIC COLORS THAT ARE
18 IDENTIFY ALL 11
SURENOS 11 IN CALIFORNIA; THAT WILL BE THE
19 COLOR BLUE.
20 THE COLOR RED IDENTIFIES ALL THE HISPANIC GANG
21 MEMBERS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF CALIFORNIA, ALTHOUGH A
22 11
SERANO" CAN BE WEARING A RED T'-SHIRT AND IT'S NOT GOING
23 TO VIOLATE ANY OF THOSE RULES.
24 CLOTHING -- WHEN IT COMES TO HISPANIC GANGS,
25 COLORS ARE NOT NECESSARILY PART OF A WAY TO IDENTIFY
26 SOMEBODY'S A GANG MEMBER.
27 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: SPECIFIC TO SHELLTOWN,
28 WHICH WE'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED YOU KNOW QUITE A BIT
1755
1 ABOUT, WHAT ARE THEIR COLORS?

2 A. THEY DON'T HAVE SPECIFIC COLORS ANYMORE. AT THE
3 BEGINNING -- I HAVE LEARNED THIS FROM OTHER GANG MEMBERS
4 AND DETECTIVES THAT WORKED THE GANG SEVERAL YEARS AGO --
5 BLACK AND GRAY WERE SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED AS COLORS THAT
6 THE MEMBERS OF THE SHELLTOWN GANG WILL COMMONLY WEAR.
7 Q. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH SHELLTOWN
8 MEMBERS, DO THEY GENERALLY WEAR A LOT OF BLACK AND GRAY?
9 A. IN MY EXPERIENCE THEY WEAR ANY COLOR AND ALL
10 COLORS.
12 SPEAKING ABOUT F.I. CARDS, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU
13 WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS DEFENSE W. CAN YOU REVIEW THIS
~-
14 PACKET FOR ME REAL QUICK, AND THEN I'M GOING TO ASK YOU
15 SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT IT.
16 A. YES.
17 Q. I THINK IT'S ONLY LIKE SIX PAGES.
18 A. OKAY.
20 THE COURT: WE HEARD DEFENSE W, I BELIEVE, MENTIONED
21 IN CONNECTION WITH THE EXAMINATION OF MR. MATTHEWS, BUT IT
22 WAS NEVER IDENTIFIED FOR THE RECORD.
23 FOR THE RECORD, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, CAN YOU GIVE
24 US A SHORTHAND IDENTIFICATION OF THAT EXHIBIT.
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. IT WAS ALSO
26 MENTIONED DURING THE EXAMINATION OF ANDRES LOPEZ.
27 THE COURT: MAY HAVE BEEN, THANK YOU, BUT --
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT IS A PACKET OF FIELD INTERVIEW
1756
1 CARDS OF ANDRES LOPEZ.

5 Q. THANK YOU, DETECTIVE. WHAT WOULD BE PAGE 1
6 WHO'S THE PERSON TO WHICH THE GANG CONTACT WAS MADE?
.
7 A. IT APPEARS TO BE TO TWO PEOPLE, "LOPEZ, ANDRES,"
8 AND A SECOND PERSON -- OH, IT HAS A LAST NAME OF
9 "ENCINAS," BUT IT'S NOT COMPLETELY DONE.
10 Q. OKAY. AND THE CONTACT WAS MADE ON WHAT DATE?
11 A. APRIL
12 MR. TROCHA: I'M GOING TO OBJECT AS TO HEARSAY AND
13 LACK OF FOUNDATION.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WAS ASKING HER IF ANY CRITERIA
16 WOULD BE MET ON THIS. I THINK IT'S RELEVANT.
17 THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS IF I SHOULD SUSTAIN ON
18 HEARSAY.
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I MEAN, I WOULD LIKE TO BE HEARD
20 ON SIDEBAR ON THIS.
21 THE COURT: SURE.
22 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S PUT THE SIDEBAR RULE
23 IN EFFECT. WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD FOR JUST A FEW
24 MINUTES.
26 THE COURT: THANK YOU, FOLKS. WE'RE BACK ON THE
27 RECORD. ALL ARE PRESENT.
28 I'M GOING TO INVITE MR. SPEREDELOZZI TO MOVE ON
1757
1 TO A NEW SUBJECT AND, IF APPROPRIATE, WE'LL COME BACK AND

2 REVISIT THIS AT A LATER TIME. THE OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED
3 WITHOUT PREJUDICE.
4 ~. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY PROCEED.
7 Q. GOING TO MR. DOMINGUEZ IN THIS CASE, YOU WROTE A
8 GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON HIM, RIGHT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. YOUR GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT CONTAINED ALL THE
11 F.I. CARDS AND ARREST REPORTS THAT YOU FOUND ON HIM?
12 A. SOME OF THEM.
13 Q. YOU LEFT SOME OUT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHY?
16 A. I HAD -- AT THE TIME WHEN I PREPARED THE REPORT,
17 I DID NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS OF THOSE F.I.'S, AND
18 I LEFT THOSE OUT. I HAD ALSO FOUND SOME OTHER ARREST
19 REPORTS WHERE I DID NOT HAVE -- I HAD NOT RECEIVED -- I
20 HAD REQUESTED FROM OTHER AGENCIES THE REPORTS AND I HAD
21 NOT RECEIVED THEM, SO I DID NOT INCLUDE THEM AT THE TIME
22 THAT THE GDR WAS DONE.
23 Q. WHAT DATE RANGE IS THE INFORMATION THAT YOU LEFT
24 OUT FROM?
25 A. I DO NOT RECALL THE EXACT DATES, BUT I DO --
26 BECAUSE OF MY NOTES I PUT TWO F.I. 'S THAT I HAD FOUND IN
27 EARLY 1995.
28 Q. OKAY. WITHIN THE PAST SIX YEARS WERE THERE ANY
1758
1 F.I. CARDS THAT YOU LEFT OUT?

2 A. ABOUT F.I. CARDS I'M NOT QUITE SURE ABOUT
3 SOME OF THE CRIME REPORTS. I KNOW I DID NOT INCLUDE IT.
4 Q. SOME CRIME REPORTS YOU DIDN'T INCLUDE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. SINCE -- DO YOU KNOW THE DATE OF THE CRIME
7 REPORT?
8 A. I -- I DO NOT REMEMBER.
9 Q. WAS IT 2007?
10 A. I HAVE TO KNOW WHICH ONE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
11 Q. WAS IT NOT GANG RELATED?
12 A. PROBABLY NOT.
13 Q. THAT'S WHY YOU DIDN'T PUT IT IN?
14 A. THE REASON I DIDN'T PUT IT IN IS BECAUSE I
'
15 DIDN'T HAVE THE DOCUMENT TO REVIEW THE WHOLE DOCUMENT AND
16 MADE A DETERMINATION WHETHER IT WAS GANG RELATED AT THE
17 TIME OR NOT.
18 Q. AND -- OKAY. SO FROM WHAT INFORMATION YOU DID
19 HAVE, IT DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE GANG RELATED?
20 A. YES, CORRECT.
21 Q. SO FROM -- AFTER, SAY -- DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF
22 THE GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON YOU?
23 A. YES, I DO.
24 Q. DO YOU HAVE IT IN FRONT OF YOU?
25 A. YES, I DO.
Q. GOOD. '
AFTER 2004, AFTER THAT YEAR, STARTING IN
26
27 2005, TALKING ABOUT JUST THE F.I. CARDS ON MR. DOMINGUEZ
28 THAT ARE IN THE REPORT, THE ONLY -- ASIDE FROM THE ARREST
1759
1 ON FEBRUARY 18th, 2010, THE ARREST IN THIS CASE -- ASIDE

2 FROM THAT, THE ONLY F.I. CARD -- THE ONLY CRITERIA THAT
3 WAS MET IS ASSOCIATION, RIGHT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S NO SELF-ADMISSION,
6 RIGHT?
7 A. OTHER THAN HE CLAIMED THAT HE "USED TO KICK IT
8 WITH," THERE IS NO-- HE DIDN'T EVER ADMIT THAT HE WAS
9 STILL ACTIVE.
10 Q. YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS ON DIRECT, BUT LET'S GO
11 OVER IT: "USED TO KICK IT" IS AN INSTANCE WHERE YOU OR A
12 FIELD OFFICER, WHAT HAVE YOU, HAS TO MAKE A JUDGMENT CALL,
13 RIGHT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. SOMETIMES WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS "USED TO KICK IT,"
16 THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO AVOID BECOMING DOCUMENTED?
17 A. THAT, OR FROM WHAT THEY HAVE TOLD ME, THEY
18 BELIEVE IF THEY ADMIT IT TO THE POLICE, THEY'RE GOING TO
19 BECOME TARGETS OF THE POLICE OFFICERS. SO SOMETIMES
20 THEY'LL TRY TO HIDE THAT THINKING THAT OFFICERS ARE JUST
21 GOING TO HARASS THEM OR TARGET THEM FOR ADMITTING THAT
22 THEY ARE GANG MEMBERS.
23 Q. AND YOU SAID -- I THINK YOU SAID ON DIRECT THAT
24 IF IT'S A YOUNGER GUY, LIKE 18, 19 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
25 11
USED TO KICK IT WITH' II YOU IRE MORE APT TO SAY THAT IS A
26 CRITERIA, RIGHT?
27 A. DEPENDS ON THE HISTORY OF THE PERSON, DEPENDS ON
28 WHAT OTHER FIELD INTERVIEWS, ARREST REPORTS, CRIME REPORTS
1760
1 OR -- ANY DOCUMENTS THAT I HAVE ON THIS PERSON, I WOULD

2 MAKE A DECISION WHETHER THIS PERSON IS BEING HONEST OR IS
3 JUST BEING -- TRYING TO AVOID THE QUESTIONS OF THE
4 OFFICERS, NOT BEING HONEST WITH THE OFFICERS, OR -- OR HE
5 IS -- IT COULD BE THAT HE IS -- REALLY DID NOT -- JUST
6 STARTED ASSOCIATING AT A LATER TIME IN THE TEENAGER LIFE.
7 Q. I THINK YOU SAID THAT IF SOMEBODY'S OLDER, MAYBE
8 IN HIS 30'S OR 40'S OR EVEN SO'S, YOU'RE PROBABLY MORE APT
9 TO, WHEN THEY SAY THEY "USED TO KICK IT," BELIEVE THAT
10 PERSON AND SAY, "YEAH, THAT MAKES SENSE. THEY'RE OLDER."
11 "USED TO KICK IT" SEEMS TO BE WHAT IS ACTUALLY
12 GOING ON, RIGHT?
13 A. ALSO THE SAME CONCEPT. THERE IS REALLY OLDER
14 GANG MEMBERS -- AND I'M SAYING OLDER NOT BECAUSE THE AGE
15 OF 40 IS AN OLD PERSON. IT'S MY AGE
16 Q. WELL, FOR A GANG MEMBER -- I'LL STOP YOU THERE.
17 FOR A GANG MEMBER, 40 IS KIND OF OLD, ISN'T IT?
18 A. IT'S NOT -- IT WOULD NOT BE ONE -- OF A PERSON
19 THAT JUST GOT JUMPED IN, YES, IT WILL BE VERY LATE IN LIFE
20 WHEN HE DECIDED TO BECOME A GANG MEMBER. IT IS NOT USUAL.
21 Q. MOST GANG MEMBERS, THEY BECOME A GANG MEMBER
22 WHEN THEY'RE TEENAGERS, RIGHT?'
23 A. TEENAGERS OR EARLY IN THEIR ADULTHOOD.
24 Q. YEAH. I MEAN, IT WOULD PROBABLY SHOCK YOU TO
25 SEE SOMEBODY WHO'S 30 BECOMING A MEMBER AT THAT AGE,
26 RIGHT?
27 A. GETTING INITIATED, YES.
28 Q. THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN?
1761
1 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN. I HAVEN'T

2 SEEN IT.
3 Q. AND SO, AGAIN, THE OLDER A PERSON IS, THE MORE
4 LIKELY YOU'RE GOING TO SAY "USED TO KICK IT" IS TRUE WHAT
5 THEY'RE TELLING YOU?
6 A. IT ALSO DEPENDS. I HAVE OLDER GUYS THAT REMAIN
7 ACTIVE. THEY'RE STILL -- MAYBE NOT PARTICIPATING ON THE
8 VIOLENT CRIMES, BUT THEY'RE PARTICIPATING ON DRUG SALES.
9 THEY'RE CALLING THE SHOTS. THEY HAVE THOSE -- THE POWER
10 TO DIRECT THE YOUNGER TO DO WHAT THEY NEED TO BE DONE FOR
11 THAT GANG. SO THEY'RE STILL GANG MEMBERS AT A LATER AGE.
12 I DO HAVE GANG MEMBERS THAT ARE OLDER, WHAT IS
13 CONSIDERED OLDER FOR A GANG MEMBER IN SHELLTOWN, AND I
14 HAVE TO REVIEW THOSE DOCUMENTS, THAT CAN PROVE IT
15 DIFFERENT, THAT THIS PERSON HONESTLY PROBABLY USED TO BE A
16 GANG MEMBER WHEN HE WAS YOUNG AND HE HAS MOVED ON. SO WE
17 HAVE TO REVIEW THE SAME WAY THAT I WOULD DO WITH A YOUNGER
18 PERSON.
19 Q. SO SINCE 2005, THE ONLY ONES ARE ASSOCIATION AND
20 MAYBE SELF-ADMISSION FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ, RIGHT?
21 A. IN 2005?
22 Q. SINCE 2005.
23 A. OH, SINCE 2005. CAN I REVIEW MY --
24 Q. YES.
'
26 THE WITNESS: FROM 2005 TO THE TIME WHERE HE WAS
27 ARRESTED WITH
28 \\
1762
2 Q. TO THE ARREST IN THIS CASE.
3 A. YES, CORRECT.
4 Q. THAT IS CORRECT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WE ALREADY ESTABLISHED
7 THAT NOT EVERY GANG MEMBER BECOMES DOCUMENTED. SOME ARE
8 ABLE TO AVOID IT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. BUT ALSO SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE DOCUMENTED ARE
11 ACTUALLY NO LONGER ACTIVE IN THE GANG, RIGHT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
14 A. WELL, WHETHER THEY'RE ACTIVE IN THE GANG OR
15 WHETHER I DON'T HAVE PROOF TO SHOW THEY'RE ACTIVE IN THE
16 GANG COULD BE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
17 Q. I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT WHAT I'M ASKING IS, IS IT
18 POSSIBLE IN YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT SOMEBODY WHO'S CURRENTLY
19 DOCUMENTED IS ACTUALLY NOT ACTIVE IN THE GANG?
20 A. YEAH, IT COULD BE POSSIBLE.
21 Q. HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN?
22 A. WELL, THAT PERSON HAS NOT MET ANY OF THOSE
23 CRITERIA, THAT PERSON HAD REALLY MOVED ON IN LIFE AND
24 DOESN'T ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE AND HAD TRIED TO MOVE ON IN
25 LIFE AND BECOME A LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN.
26 ALSO IT COULD BE THAT THEY'RE STILL DOCUMENTED
27 AND THEY HAVE BEEN IN PRISON OR IN JAIL AND FOR A LONG
28 PERIOD OF TIME I HAVEN'T HEARD OF THEM AND THEY'RE STILL
1763
1 DOCUMENTED BUT THEY'RE NOT ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN THE

2 GANG -- WITH THEIR GANG.
3 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DETECTIVE: IS THERE A
4 DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO IS ACTIVE, PUTTING IN WORK,
5 DOING GRAFFITI, ROBBERIES, JUMP-INS, CHECKING IN A GANG,
6 FOR A GANG, AND SOMEBODY WHO IS OLDER PERHAPS AND JUST
7 KIND OF STILL HANGS OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS?
8 A. USUALLY THE ONES THAT ARE THE OLDER ONES,
9 THEY'RE NOT AS ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN THOSE CRIMES AS
10 THE YOUNGER ONES THAT ARE TRYING TO PROVE THEMSELVES.
11 THEY'RE TRYING TO SHOW THE GANG THAT THEY CAN DO --
12 THEY'RE DOING THE DIRTY WORK.
13 THOSE OLDER GANG MEMBERS, THEY HAVE DONE IT AND
14 THEY HAVE ACQUIRED STATUS IN THE GANG, SO THEY DON'T HAVE
15 TO WORRY ABOUT GOING TO A STORE AND DOING A BEER RUN SO
16 THEY CAN BRING IT TO THE PARK. THEY HAVE THE YOUNGSTERS
17 TO DO IT.
18 THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT HE'S NOT
19 ACTIVE IN THE GANG. HE STILL HAS THE LEVEL OF -- OR THE
20 STATUS IN THE GANG. HE STILL HAS -- IS THE ONE THAT MAKES
21 THOSE DECISIONS IN THE GANG. ~E STILL IS THE ONE THAT
22 WILL BE DIRECTING WHAT TO DO AND WILL BE SAYING, "I DON'T
23 LIKE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING" OR "YOU GUYS ARE NOT DOING
24 ENOUGH."
25 SO IT COULD JUST BE THE PERSON THAT IS CALLED
26 THE "SHOT CALLER" THAT TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO WITHOUT BEING
27 DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THOSE CRIMES.
28 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DETECTIVE: YOU'RE TALKING
1764
1 ABOUT SOMEBODY CALLED A "SHOT CALLER." IT'S SOMEBODY WHO

2 MAKES DECISIONS, RIGHT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. THAT'S NOT EVERY SINGLE OLDER PERSON WHO STILL
5 HANGS OUT, RIGHT?
6 A. NOT EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT HANGS OUT, BUT IT'S
7 ALSO NOT A SPECIFIC ASSIGNMENT FOR ONE PERSON. IT COULD
8 BE -- AND IT'S ALSO NOT JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE AN OLDER GANG
9 MEMBER. YOU CAN BE A VERY YOUNG GANG MEMBER THAT HAS
10 SHOWN AND GAINED THAT RESPECT, AND YOU CAN BE IN YOUR
11 EARLY 20'S AND BE ONE OF THE SHOT CALLERS BECAUSE THE
12 VIOLENT CRIMES OR THE STATUS THAT YOU HAVE GAINED WITH THE
13 GANG GIVES YOU THE POWER OF CALLING THE SHOTS.
14 THERE COULD BE ALSO FIVE, SIX OLDER GANG
15 MEMBERS, O.G. 'S, THAT ARE THE SHOT CALLERS. IT'S NOT ONE
16 PERSON; IT'S NOT AN ASSIGNMENT TO JUST SPECIFICALLY ONE
17 PERSON.
18 THE COURT: MAY I SUGGEST THIS: WE WILL BE
19 CONTINUING DETECTIVE GASCA'S TESTIMONY TOMORROW; HOWEVER,
20 WE TOOK SOME DEFENSE WITNESSES TODAY, SO WE'RE ON TRACK.
21 MY THANKS TO BOTH COUNSEL FOR KEEPING THEIR REMARKS
22 FOCUSED.
23 LET'S TAKE THE EVENING RECESS RIGHT NOW.
24 REMEMBER THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SHOT CALLER CONCEPT.
25 THAT'S A GOOD, LOGICAL PLACE TO
..
BREAK .
27 CHAIRS. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE INDULGE ME IF I
28 REMIND YOU THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG
1765
1 YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON ANY SUBJECT

2 CONNECTED WITH THIS TRIAL OR TO FORM OR EXPRESS ANY
3 OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE CAUSE IS SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR
4 DECISION. THIS, OF COURSE, INCLUDES ELECTRONIC AND ONLINE
5 SOCIAL MEDIA COMMUNICATIONS AS WELL.
6 THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED ATTENTION. SEE YOU
~
7 TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK. THANK YOU.

11 THE COURT: THE JURORS HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM.
12 WHY DON'T I INVITE COUNSEL HERE ABOUT 8:45
13 TOMORROW MORNING AND WE'LL HASH OUT THAT ISSUE THAT WE
14 TALKED ABOUT AT SIDEBAR WITH RESPECT TO -- IS IT
15 DEFENSE W?
16 MR. TROCHA: YES.
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT IS. YOUR HONOR, I'M MEETING
18 WITH SOME WITNESSES THAT I REAlLY NEED TO MEET WITH.
19 THE COURT: NO PROBLEM. WE'LL MAKE TIME TO DO IT
20 THEN AT 9:00 O'CLOCK.
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: 9:00 O'CLOCK?
22 THE COURT: 9:00 O'CLOCK TOMORROW. THAT'S FINE. I
23 UNDERSTAND THE EXIGENCIES OF TRIAL WORK. 9:00 O'CLOCK IT
24 IS THEN.
26 THE COURT: THANK YOU ALL. WE'RE IN RECESS.
28 * * *
3
4 I, RINDY M. ORMROD, RPR, CSR NO . 6278, OFFICIAL

8 HELD IN THE FOREGOING CASE, PEOPLE VS . DOMINGUEZ, AND THAT
9 THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT, VOLUME 14, PAGES 1577 THROUGH
10 1765, INCLUSIVE, IS A FULL, TR~E AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPTION
11 OF THE PROCEEDINGS.
13 OF AUGUST, 2011.
14
15
16
17
~0.
18
19
6278
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
DIVISION ONE
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ) FROM SAN DIEGO COUNTY

CALIFORNIA, ) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDGE
)
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. D060019
vs. )
)
DEFENDANT AND ) JURY TRIAL
APPELLANT. )
)

APRIL 13, 2011
VOLUME 15
(PAGES 1766 THROUGH, 1997, INCLUSIVE)
APPEARANCES:
110 WEST A STREET

AND APPELLANT:

OFFICIAL REPORTER

)
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
vs. ') D.A. NO. ACV800
)
)
__________________________
DEFENDANT. ) )
APRIL 13, 2011
VOLUME 15
APPEARANCES:
DISTRICT ATTORNEY
330 WEST BROADWAY
RETAINED COUNSEL
r RINDY M. ORMROD, RPR, CSR NO. 6278

OFFICIAL REPORTER
I NDEX
APRIL 13, 2011
VOLUME 15

CROSS (RESUMED) BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ........ 1766 22
LUIS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA - DEFENSE WITNESS
..
ANTHONY J. EWING- DEFENSE WITNESS
r. CARLOS RIOS - DEFENSE WITNESS
ANA MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS

RONALD MARTINEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS
ALEXIS LOPEZ - DEFENSE WITNESS
JOSUE GUTIERREZ - DEFENSE WITNESS (RECALLED)
FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. TROCHA .............. 1958 11
CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX (CONTINUED):
RANDY BARNES-DE LEON - DEFENSE WITNESS
EVELYN SOTO - DEFENSE WITNESS
I NDEX
APRIL 13, 2011
VOLUME 15

BARNES-DE LEON, RANDY - DEFENSE WITNESS
EWING, ANTHONY J. -DEFENSE WITNESS
GASCA, DETECTIVE MARTHA - PEOPLE'S WITNESS
CROSS (RESUMED) BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI ........ 1766 22
GUTIERREZ, JOSUE - DEFENSE WITNESS (RECALLED)
FURTHER RECROSS BY MR. TROCHA .............. 1958 11
LOPEZ, ALEXIS - DEFENSE WITNESS
'
MARTINEZ. ANA - DEFENSE WITNESS
MARTINEZ, RONALD - DEFENSE WITNESS
QUINTANILLA. LUIS JONATHAN - DEFENSE WITNESS
r ALPHABETICAL INDEX (CONTINUED):
RIOS, CARLOS - DEFENSE WITNESS
SOTO. EVELYN - DEFENSE WITNESS
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
APRIL 13, 2011
VOLUME 15
PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION: PAGE LINE

238 JONATHAN QUINTANILLA'S MYSPACE PROFILE ... 1802 2
239 PHOTO OF TATTOO .......................... 1828 1
266 PHOTO OF TATTOO ON JOSUE GUTIERREZ ....... 1944 14
DEFENSE EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION:
Q LETTER FROM ANTHONY EWING WITH ATTACHED .. 1846 11
PRISON RECORDS OF JONATHAN QUINTANILLA
V PHOTO OF JOSE GUTIERREZ .................. 1862 25
FF TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW OF JOSUE ......... 1941 21
GUTIERREZ
GG CD OF EXHIBIT FF ......................... 1942 1
II MYSPACE PROFILE .......................... 1777 26
'
TT PHOTO OF A POSTER ........................ 1928 4
GGG C. D. COVER ............................... 1810 27
III PHOTO OF A TATTOO ON JOSUE GUTIERREZ' .... 1956 3
ARM
1766
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2011

2 8:45 A.M.
4 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. GOOD
5 MORNING. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT,
6 ALERT AND AS CONSCIENTIOUS AS EVER. NICE TO SEE EACH ONE
7 OF YOU.
8 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. GOOD
9 MORNING TO THEM AS WELL. DETECTIVE GASCA HAS RESUMED THE
10 WITNESS STAND.
11 GOOD MORNING, MA'AM.,
13 THE COURT: WE CONTINUE WITH THE EXAMINATION OF
14 DETECTIVE GASCA BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I BELIEVE.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, JUDGE.
16
17 DETECTIVE MARTHA GASCA,
18 CALLED ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY
19 DULY SWORN, RESUMED TESTIFYING AS FOLLOWS:
20
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
23 Q. GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE GASCA.
24 A. GOOD MORNING.
25 Q. WELCOME BACK.
26 A. THANK YOU.
27 Q. WHEN WE LEFT OFF YESTERDAY, I THINK MY LAST
28 QUESTION WAS, TO YOU, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEBODY WHO
1767
1 IS HANGING OUT AND SOMEBODY WHO'S PUTTING IN WORK. IS

2 THERE A DIFFERENCE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHAT IS THAT DIFFERENCE?
5 A. SOME OF THE DIFFERENCE OF HANG-AROUNDS ARE JUST
6 THOSE THAT WANT TO BECOME MEMBERS, THOSE THAT ARE TRYING
7 TO IMITATE THE ACTIVITIES OF THOSE ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS.
8 USUALLY THE YOUNGEST, THE 10 FROM -- YOU CAN SEE THEM AS
9 YOUNG AS 10 YEARS OLD, 12, 13 YEARS OLD, THEY'RE JUST
10 HANGING OUT. THEY JUST SEE WHAT THEY'RE DOING. IF
11 THEY'RE HAVING A PARTY AT THE PARK, THEY MIGHT STOP BY.
12 THEY'LL SAY HI. THEY'LL RECOGNIZE THE ACTIVE GANG
13 MEMBERS. THEY'RE NOT ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN THE
14 ACTIVITIES OF THOSE ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS.
15 THE ACTIVE GANG MEMBFRS ARE THE ONES THAT PUT
16 IN -- THEY ARE PUTTING IN WORK, THE ONES THAT ARE DOING
17 THE BEER RUNS, THE AUTO THEFTS, THE BURGLARIES, THE
18 ROBBERIES. THAT'S ONE OF THE DIFFERENCES. THEY'RE NOT --
19 THE HANG-AROUNDS ARE NOT MEMBERS.
20 Q. LET ME BE MORE POINTED WITH MY QUESTION,
21 DETECTIVE. I'M TALKING ABOUT OLDER GANG MEMBERS.
22 A. OLDER GANG MEMBERS?
23 Q. YEAH. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: DO GANG MEMBERS
24 RETIRE?
25 A. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S SUCH A THING AS, .. I'M
r 26
27
RETIRED.
Q.
I'M NOT PART OF IT ANYMORE ...
'
THEY DON'T GET A PENSION, CORRECT?
28 A. EXACTLY. BUT I HAVE SEEN -- I UNDERSTAND YOUR
1768
1 QUESTION NOW. WHAT I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN YESTERDAY,

2 WHAT THEY CALL SOME OF THE OLDER HOMIES OR OLD HOMIES,
3 O.G. 'S, G'S, THEY'RE STILL SOME SORT OF ACTIVE. THEY'RE
4 NOT ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN THOSE CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES.
5 A LOT OF THEM HAVE MOVED ON, HAVE MOVED OUT OF
6 THE NEIGHBORHOOD. THEY HAVE FAMILIES. THEY'RE MARRIED.
7 THEY'RE OLDER. THEY HAVE BEEN SOMETIMES THROUGH THE
'
8 JUDICIAL SYSTEM. THEY'VE BEEN IN JUVENILE HALL,
9 PROBATION, JAIL, PRISON, PAROLE. THEY HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF
10 THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AND THEY ADVISE THE YOUNGER --
11 THESE GANG MEMBERS SOMETIMES ARE THE MOST
12 VIOLENT. YOU DON'T SEE THEM THERE VERY OFTEN. THEY'LL
13 GATHER -- THEY'LL GO TO SPECIAL GATHERINGS SUCH AS -- SOME
14 BIRTHDAY PARTIES, MAYBE FUNERALS, CELEBRATIONS, GANG
15 CELEBRATIONS. AS IN THIS CASE, SHELLTOWN WILL BE
16 MARCH 8th FOR THE "3-8." YOU'LL SEE THEM ON SOME OF
17 THESE OCCASIONS.
18 YOU'LL SEE THEM ON THEIR OWN KIDS' BIRTHDAY
19 PARTIES AND THEY'LL INVITE SOME' OF THE OLDER HOMIES ALSO.
20 THEY DON'T GET A LOT OF CONTACTS WITH THE POLICE. THEY
21 HAVE LEGITIMATE JOBS. THEY ALSO ARE SOMETIMES INVOLVED IN
22 DRUG SALES, AND THEY'RE NOT THE ONES THAT ARE GOING TO GET
23 CAUGHT WITH THOSE DRUGS. USUALLY THE ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS
24 ARE THE ONES THAT ARE SELLING FOR THEM AND THEY'RE JUST
25 RECEIVING THE MONEY.
26 THEY'RE ALSO THE ONES THAT ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF
r 27 IT AND THEY HAVE ENGAGED IN TOTALLY DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES
28 AND THEY BECOME LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.
1769
1 Q. TALKING ABOUT THESE TWO SEPARATE TYPES OF OLDER

2 GANG MEMBERS, THE INFORMATION FROM THE F.I. CARDS DOESN'T
3 REALLY HELP YOU DISTINGUISH THOSE TWO, DOES IT?
4 A. NOT ALL THE TIME.
5 Q. BECAUSE, LIKE YOU SAID, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE
6 LESS CONTACT WITH THE POLICE, RIGHT?
7 A. YES. YOU DON'T SEE A LOT OF THEM.
8 Q. OKAY. AND SOME OF THE ONES IN THE SECOND
9 CATEGORY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT ARE ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW,
10 RETIRED OR LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AND GENERALLY JUST NOT
11 GANGBANGING ANYMORE, THOSE PEOpLE STILL HANG OUT WITH
12 THEIR CHILDHOOD FRIENDS, MAY STILL BE DOCUMENTED GANG
13 MEMBERS, RIGHT?
14 A. YEAH, IT COULD BE POSSIBLE.
15 Q. SO SOMEBODY WHO'S QUOTE/UNQUOTE RETIRED, HAS A
16 FAMILY, A REAL JOB, THEY COULD BE HANGING OUT WITH OTHER
17 OLDER GANG MEMBERS, RIGHT?
18 A. THEY COULD.
19 Q. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS DOCUMENTATION
20 PROCESS AND HAVING AN OPINION ON WHETHER SOMEBODY IS A
21 GANG MEMBER, THE OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE
22 DOCUMENTED, THAT'S PRETTY EASY TO DISCERN, CORRECT?
'
23 A. DEPENDING ON WHETHER THEY'RE STILL ACTIVE
24 VERSUS --
25 Q. NO. THE FACT THAT THEY'RE DOCUMENTED AS A GANG
26 MEMBER IS EXTREMELY EASY TO DISCERN, RIGHT? YOU JUST
27 CHECK THE CAL-GANG DATABASE?
28 A. YES, AND IF THEY'RE STILL DOCUMENTED. NOT
1770
1 NECESSARILY IT MEANS THEY'RE STILL ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING.

2 Q. BUT WHETHER THEY'RE ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IS A
3 LOT HARDER TO DISCERN, RIGHT?
4 A. IT'S A LOT-- EXCUSE'ME?
5 Q. MORE DIFFICULT.
6 A. I DIDN'T HEAR THE WHOLE QUESTION.
7 Q. I'LL REPEAT IT. WHETHER THEY'RE ACTUALLY
8 PARTICIPATING IN GANG ACTIVITY AND, YOU KNOW, SORT OF
9 RUNNING THE GANG, THAT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO DISCERN, RIGHT?
10 A. YES. IT COULD BE, YES.
11 Q. NOW, YOUR OPINION IS BASED ON MOSTLY INFORMATION
12 FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THAT IT'S F.I. CARDS, POLICE
13 REPORTS, YOUR OWN CONTACTS AND WHAT YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT
14 WITH OTHER POLICE OFFICERS, RIGHT?
15 A. NOT NECESSARILY.
16 Q. WHAT ELSE IS IT BASED ON?
17 A. I ALSO TALK TO OTHER GANG MEMBERS, ACTIVE GANG
18 MEMBERS. THERE'S CITIZENS IN THE COMMUNITY. SOME OF
19 THOSE GANG MEMBERS, THEY GIVE US INFORMATION AND THEY TELL
20 US WHAT'S GOING ON AND THAT'S HOW YOU LEARN WHO'S ACTIVE,
21 WHO'S STILL IN CONTACT, WHO ARE YOUR OLDER HOMIES.
22 SOMETIMES YOU JUST ASK THEM, "HEY, HOW IS
23 SO-AND-SO DOING?" THEY'LL KNOW HOW THEY'RE DOING.
24 THEY'RE STILL IN CONTACT. THEY WON'T TELL YOU EXACTLY
25 WHAT THEY'RE DOING, BUT YOU KNOW WHEN THEY KNOW THE OLDER
26 HOMIES ARE STILL AROUND.
27 Q. SO IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHEN YOU'RE FORMING
28 YOUR OPINION ON MR. DOMINGUEZ -- LET ME GO OVER SOME
1771
1 THINGS THAT YOU DIDN'T REALLY INVESTIGATE. FOR EXAMPLE,

2 YOU NEVER TALKED TO HIS FAMILY?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. YOU NEVER TALKED TO HIS CHILDREN?
5 A. NO.
6 Q. AT THE LAST HEARING ON THIS CASE YOU ACTUALLY
7 DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD CHILDREN, RIGHT?
8 A. YES, CORRECT.
9 Q. YOU KNOW NOW?
10 A. I DO KNOW NOW.
11 Q. HOW MANY CHILDREN DOES HE HAVE?
12 A. I BELIEVE HE HAS THREE KIDS.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW THEIR NAMES?
r- 14 A. I DO NOT.
15 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW OLD THEY ARE?
16 A. ONE OF THE PROBATION REPORTS THAT I READ, IT HAS
17 THE AGES, BUT I BELIEVE THAT'S A LONG TIME AGO. THE
18 YOUNGEST ONE WAS A COUPLE MONTHS OLD.
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE'S MARRIED?
20 A. I DO KNOW NOW THAT HE IS MARRIED.
21 Q. AT THE LAST HEARING, WHEN YOU WERE TESTIFYING IN
22 THIS CASE, YOU DIDN'T KNOW?
23 A. I DIDN'T RECALL THAT HE WAS MARRIED, YES.
24 Q. YOU KNEW BECAUSE YOU FOUND OUT DURING MY
25 QUESTIONS, RIGHT?
26 A. AND THIS INVESTIGATION, YES.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS WIFE'S NAME?
28 A. I DO.
1772
1 Q. WHAT IS IT?
2 A. IT'S DEANNA -- I'M SORRY. IT'S NICOLE --
3 NATALIE, AND THE LAST NAME IS CADINA, AND I'M NOT SURE IF
4 SHE HAS TAKEN "DOMINGUEZ" NOW.
5 Q. IT'S NATALIE, RIGHT?
6 A. NATALIE, YES.
7 Q. THE SAME THING THAT'S TATTOOED ON
8 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S STOMACH?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DO YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ'S SIBLINGS?
11 A. NAMES?
12 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAS ANY?
13 A. I DO KNOW THAT HE DOES. I DO NOT KNOW THE
14 NAMES.
15 Q. HAVE YOU TALKED TO THEM OR MET THEM?
16 A. ACTUALLY, I HAVE SEEN THE NAMES. I DON'T RECALL
17 THE NAMES.
18 Q. AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE?
19 A. I'M NOT QUITE SURE.
20 Q. HOW ABOUT PROPERTY? DO YOU KNOW IF
21 MR. DOMINGUEZ OWNS PROPERTY?
22 A. I LEARNED THAT HE DOES, HE HAS PROPERTY. DURING
23 THE INVESTIGATION, ONE OF THE GANG MEMBERS FROM SHELLTOWN,
24 HE HAS GIVEN AN ADDRESS, AND LATER I FOUND OUT THAT THAT
25 PROPERTY BELONGS TO MR. DOMINGUEZ. AND ALSO I HAD
26 KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE YOU TOLD ME LAST TIME THAT HE OWNED
27 THREE HOUSES -- THREE PROPERTIES.
28 Q. I ASKED YOU IF HE DID, RIGHT?
1773
1 A. YES.
2 Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHERE HIS HOUSE -- WHERE HE
3 NORMALLY RESIDES? DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT IS?
4 A. THE ADDRESS THAT HE HAS GIVEN --
5 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE ME THE ADDRESS. WHY
6 DON'T YOU GIVE ME THE TOWN OR NEIGHBORHOOD.
7 A. EL CAJON.
8 Q. EL CAJON CITY?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. NOT EL CAJON BOULEVARD IN SAN DIEGO?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. EL CAJON IS PRETTY FAR AWAY FROM SHELLTOWN,
13 RIGHT?
14 A. IT IS.
15 Q. WHERE THE PERSON LIVES WHEN YOU'RE EVALUATING
16 ACTIVITY, GANG ACTIVITY, ISN'T THAT AN IMPORTANT FACTOR?
17 A. TO BECOME A GANG MEMBER, TO DOCUMENT THEM, OR
18 IN -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF THE --
19 Q. LET'S NARROW IT DOWN. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN
20 OLDER GANG MEMBER WHO AGAIN THE FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS ARE
21 SHOWING ASSOCIATION. YOU'RE TRYING TO DECIDE THE LEVEL OF
22 ACTIVITY. WOULDN'T IT HELP TO KNOW IF THAT PERSON LIVES
23 IN SHELLTOWN OR NOT?
24 A. IT WILL HELP TO KNOW WHERE THAT PERSON LIVES,
25 THOUGH I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARILY -- THAT THE PERSON
26 HAS TO LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD IN ORDER TO BE ACTIVE OR
27 STILL ASSOCIATING.
28 I DO HAVE A LOT OF GANG MEMBERS THAT LIVE IN
1774
1 CHULA VISTA, SPRING VALLEY, NATIONAL CITY, EVEN IN RIVAL

2 GANG MEMBER AREAS, AND THEY'RE STILL ACTIVE IN THE GANG.
3 Q. IT'S NOT A DETERMINATIVE ISSUE?
4 A. CORRECT.
5 Q. BUT IT IS A FACTOR?
6 A. IT IS A FACTOR?
7 Q. YES.
8 A. IT COULD BE IN A WAY WHEN YOU SEE THEM OVER
9 THERE -- WHEN I SEE A GANG MEMBER IN A NEIGHBORHOOD AND I
10 KNOW THAT HE DOESN'T LIVE IN THAT AREA, I'M GOING TO ASK
11
11 HIM, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? YOU'RE FAR AWAY FROM
12 HOME."
13 SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE WILL TELL ME -- CITIZENS
14 TELL ME, 11
THE GUYS LIVE HERE," CITIZENS IN THE COMMUNITY
15 KNOW THAT THE ONES THAT WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR A -- ONE OF
16 THOSE CRIMES ARE THE ONES THAT LIVE IN THAT AREA, SO IT
17 WILL ALSO HELP ME TO KNOW THAT THE PERSON I WAS PROBABLY
18 THINKING OF IS NOT ONE OF THOSE, THIS PERSON LIVES OUT OF
'
19 THE AREA, SO I PROBABLY WILL PUT THEM ASIDE IN TRYING
20 TO -- WITH AN ELIMINATION PROCESS I WILL SAY, "THIS PERSON
21 DOESN'T LIVE HERE, DOESN'T HANG OUT HERE EVERY DAY OUTSIDE
22 HIS HOUSE. 11
23 SO IT IS -- IT'S SOMETHING THAT I CONSIDER WHEN
24 I'M INVESTIGATING A CRIME.
25 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE PERSON'S WORK HISTORY, THEIR
26 PROFESSIONAL LIFE? IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S IMPORTANT?
28 \\
1775
2 Q. YOU'RE HAVING TROUBLE. LET ME HELP YOU.
3 A. YES.
4 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THIS CASE IF YOU SEE A PERIOD OF
5 TIME WHERE THE ONLY CRITERIA IS ASSOCIATION AND THAT
6 PERIOD'S A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME, IF YOU KNEW THAT
7 THAT PERSON HELD A STEADY, LEGITIMATE JOB DURING THAT
8 PERIOD OF TIME, WOULDN'T THAT BE A FACTOR IN DECIDING THE
9 LEVEL OF ACTIVITY IN THE GANG?
10 A. NOT REALLY, AND THE REASON I'M SAYING THAT IS
11 BECAUSE I DO HAVE AND SEEN A LOT OF GANG MEMBERS THAT HAVE
12 LEGITIMATE JOBS, AND IT'S NOT THE AMOUNT OF ACTIVITY THAT
13 THEY PUT IN AS WORK INTO THE GANG, IT'S THE TYPE OF
14 ACTIVITY THEY DO, THE VIOLENT ACTS. IT COULD BE ONCE A
15 WEEK, ONCE A MONTH, ONCE EVERY COUPLE MONTHS THEY MAKE AN
16 APPEARANCE AND THEY DO SOMETHING AND THEN I DON'T SEE THEM
17 FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.
18 I DON'T THINK WHETHER THEY HAVE A JOB OR DOESN'T
19 HAVE A JOB IS SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO CLASSIFY OR NOT
20 CLASSIFY AS A GANG MEMBER.
21 Q. LET'S PUT IT AGAIN THIS WAY: JUST LIKE WHERE
22 THEY LIVE, DETECTIVE, THIS ISN'T AN ISSUE ONE WAY OR
23 ANOTHER YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE A DECISION YES OR NO ON;
24 WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. BUT IT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING YOU SHOULD
27 CONSIDER, RIGHT? FOR EXAMPLE, AN O.G. IN HIS 30'S WHO IS
28 UNEMPLOYED, HAS NEVER HELD A STEADY JOB AND LIVES IN THE
1776
1 NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE THE GANG RESIDES, YOU MIGHT SAY THAT

2 PERSON'S MORE ACTIVE IN THE GANG, RIGHT?
4 Q. BUT COULD BE?
5 A. IT COULD BE POSSIBLE'OR IT COULD BE THAT-- IT
6 COULD BE SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS. OBVIOUSLY, WE DO NEED
7 MONEY. IF WE'RE NOT WORKING, WE'RE PROBABLY DOING
8 SOMETHING ELSE TO GET THE MONEY. THERE'S A LOT OF
9 SOURCES, WAYS OF GETTING MONEY. THERE IS A LOT OF GANG
10 MEMBERS THAT ARE VERY RESPONSIBLE. THEY HAVE JOBS. THERE
11 ARE OTHER ONES, THEY ARE VERY OLD AND THEY NEVER HAD A JOB
12 OR STEADY JOB.
13 I DO LEARN OF THOSE THINGS, BUT I DON'T BASE A
14 DECISION WHETHER THEY'RE ACTIVE OR NOT ACTIVE BASED ON
15 THEIR ECONOMICS OR THE SOCIAL LEVEL THAT THEY HAVE, THEIR
16 FAMILY MEMBERS OR NOT FAMILY MfMBERS OR BEING ABLE TO HOLD
17 A JOB FOR 10 YEARS OR MORE OR NEVER BEEN ABLE TO HOLD A
18 JOB. IT'S BASED MOSTLY ON THE ACTIVITY AND WHAT THEIR
19 INVOLVEMENT IN THE GANG IS.
20 Q. YOU'RE PUTTING MORE CREDENCE INTO THE F.I. CARDS
21 THAN TALKING TO THE PERSON'S FAMILY, FRIENDS AND --
22 A. NO, I DON'T BASE MY OPINIONS BASICALLY ON THOSE
23 F.I. CARDS.
24 Q. SO JUST LIKE THE INFORMATION THAT YOU'RE GOING
25 TO GET FROM FAMILY, FRIENDS AND PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT, THE
r 26
27
F.I. CARDS ARE ALSO NOT DETERMINATIVE?
A. YES. IT'S JUST THE TOTALITY OF THE
'
28 CIRCUMSTANCES, IT'S NOT JUST BASED ON ONE THING.
1777
r. 1 Q. I LIKE THAT, "TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES."

2 WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT THE PERSON'S LIFE THAT DOESN'T
3 HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH A GANG, FOR EXAMPLE, FAMILY,
4 FRIENDS AND WORK, THAT'S PART OF THE TOTALITY OF THE
5 CIRCUMSTANCES, RIGHT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU SHOULD LOOK AT AND
8 THEN MAKE A JUDGMENT CALL, CORRECT?
9 A. YES, THINGS THAT I CONSIDER.
10 Q. OKAY. THANK YOU. LET'S MOVE ON.
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT MYSPACE, REMEMBER,
13 YESTERDAY?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WELL, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IT WITH MR. TROCHA.
16 A. YES.
17 Q. NOW I'D LIKE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT.
18 A. OKAY.
'
19 Q. MYSPACE, WHEN YOU SIGN IN, IT TIME STAMPS IT,
20 DOESN'T IT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IT TELLS YOU THE LAST TIME THAT YOU WERE SIGNED
23 ON
24 A. YES.
25 Q. -- RIGHT?
26 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT II WAS MARKED
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING WITH DEFENSE II.
1778
1 THE COURT: YOU MAY --

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: -- I'M SHOWING THE WITNESS II.
4 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS DOCUMENT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHAT'S THE TIME STAMP FOR THE LAST TIME SIGNED
7 ON?
8 A. THE LAST LOG-IN ON JUNE 23rd, 2011.
9 Q. WHOSE MYSPACE PROFILE IS THIS?
11 11
10 A. THIS IS HUSTLE, HOOD RAISED, SAN DIEGO,
11 CALIFORNIA, UNITED STATES, PROFILE -- OH. AND IT DOES
12 HAVE WHAT APPEARS TO BE MR. DOMINGUEZ UNDER HIS NAME OF
13 "HUSTLE."
14 Q. AND WHO'S THE PICTURE OF?
15 A. MR. FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, APPEARS TO BE.
16 Q. BASED ON THAT, WHO WOULD YOU GUESS WOULD BE THE
17 QUOTE/UNQUOTE OWNER OF THE MYSPACE ACCOUNT, OR WHO'S
18 PURPORTED TO BE THE OWNER?
19 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ.
20 Q. OKAY. AND THE SIGN-ON'S, WHAT, IN JUNE 2010?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ARRESTED?
'
23 A. I BELIEVE HE WAS ARRESTED ON FEBRUARY 18th,
24 2010.
25 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAS HE BEEN IN CUSTODY THE
r-
\
26
27
ENTIRE TIME?
A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.
28 Q. HAVE YOU GONE DOWN TO ANY OF THE JAILS IN
1779
1 SAN DIEGO COUNTY?

2 A. I HAVE, I'VE BEEN TO THE JAIL.
3 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DO THE INMATES HAVE ACCESS TO
'
4 THE INTERNET?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. THEY CAN USE THE INTERNET AT THE JAIL?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?
9 A. I DO KNOW BECAUSE I -- EVEN THOUGH I HAVEN'T
10 SEEN THEIR COMPUTERS, I KNOW BY REVIEWING EMAILS EXCHANGED
11 BETWEEN THE INMATES AND THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE. I HAVE HEARD
12 THEM TALKING ON PHONE CONVERSATIONS FROM JAIL SAYING THAT
13 "EMAIL ME. DON'T TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ON THE PHONE, JUST
r 14 EMAIL ME. 11 I'VE SEEN IN LETTERS WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT
15 EMAILS.
16 Q. OKAY. LET ME STOP YOU. YOU ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW
17 WHETHER THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET, DO YOU?
18 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE BASED UPON THE
19 STATEMENT.
22 Q. WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT EMAILS, AREN'T THEY
23 TALKING ABOUT THE PROCEDURE WHERE IF YOU EMAIL AN INMATE,
24 THE DEPUTIES PRINT IT OUT AND BRING THE PRINTED COPY TO
25 THE INMATE?
26 A. OH, THAT'S WHAT-- !,HAVEN'T SEEN THEM USING THE
27 COMPUTER, SO I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THEIR
28 EMAILS.
1780
1 Q. THEY DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE COMPUTERS WHERE THEY

2 SIGN ON AND BROWSE INTERNET WEBSITES?
3 A. YES, I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THAT.
4 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW?
5 A. YES, CORRECT.
6 Q. THANK YOU. STAYING ON MYSPACE
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. TROCHA, IF YOU COULD PUT UP
8 234 FOR ME -- PEOPLE'S 234.
9 MR. TROCHA: IT'S GOING TO TAKE A SECOND.
12 Q. THIS PHOTO YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT YESTERDAY,
13 RIGHT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU GOT FROM MYSPACE,
16 RIGHT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. THE MYSPACE WEBSITE TO WHERE YOU PULLED IT FROM,
19 THAT'S A MUSIC PROMOTION WEBSITE, IS IT NOT?
20 A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT KIND OF WEBSITE IT IS,
21 WHETHER IT'S A PROMOTIONAL WEBSITE OR NOT, BUT I KNOW THAT
22 IT DOES HAVE SOME MUSIC VIDEOS AND LINKS THAT YOU CAN
23 CLICK TO SOME OF THE MUSIC.
24 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT "HUSTLE MUSIC" IS?
25 A. I DON'T KNOW A LOT -- I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF
26 KNOWLEDGE ON THAT, BUT I HAVE LEARNED THROUGH THIS
27 INVESTIGATION THAT IT'S A RECORDING BUSINESS THAT
28 MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN.
1781
1 Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT "HOOD RAISED"?

2 A. ..HOOD RAISED," I BELIEVE, IS A PART OF THE
3 PRODUCTION -- THE MUSIC BUSINESS THAT THEY HAVE.
4 Q. SO TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, MY CLIENT OWNS A MUSIC
5 PRODUCTION BUSINESS?
6 A. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE OWNS IT OR HE'S PART OF
7 IT, BUT I KNOW THAT HE'S BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS BUSINESS.
8 Q. THIS PICTURE HERE THAT YOU GOT FROM MYSPACE, DID
9 YOU SEE WHEN YOU PULLED IT FROM MYSPACE ANY RELATION TO
10 THE MUSIC BUSINESS THAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT?
11 A. RELATION AS FROM A VIDEO CLIP OR --
12 Q. WASN'T THE WEB PAGE THAT YOU PULLED IT FROM A
13 PROMOTIONAL WEB PAGE FOR THE MUSIC BUSINESS?
14 A. LIKE I SAY, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S A
15 PROMOTIONAL WEBSITE. I SAW THOSE VIDEOS, I SAW THOSE
16 LINKS TO THE MUSIC, AND I ALSO SEE THIS PICTURE. I DON'T
17 KNOW IF IT'S JUST A PROMOTION FOR ONE OF THE VIDEO CLIPS
18 OR A C.D.
19 Q. YOU SEE THAT GUY IN THE BLUE HAT UP IN THE
20 FOREFRONT OF THE PHOTO?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. YOU IDENTIFIED HIM AS LITTLE AL.
23 A. YES.
24 Q. YOU NEVER MET LITTLE AL, HAVE YOU?
25 A. NO, I HAVE NOT.
26 Q. IS HE A RAPPER?
27 A. FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN, HE SEEMS TO BE.
28 Q. HE DOES HIP HOP MUSIC?
1782
1 A. YES.
2 Q. YOU DON'T LISTEN TO LITTLE AL, DO YOU?
3 A. I DO NOT.
4 Q. THAT'S NOT LITTLE AL, IS IT?
5 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THE REAL NAME OF HIM OR
6 OR HIS REAL NAME. I HAVE LEARNED OF A NAME THAT IS
7 POSSIBLY CONNECTED WITH HIM.
8 Q. THIS GUY, HIS NAME IS YOUNG SICC. HAVE YOU
9 HEARD OF YOUNG SICC?
10 A. OH, YES, I HAVE HEARD OF YOUNG SICC.
11 Q. YOU HAVE? DID YOU LISTEN TO HIM?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN A PHOTO OF HIM?
14 A. NO, I HAVEN'T SEEN A PHOTO OF HIM.
15 Q. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE?
16 A. I DON'T THINK SO. I'VE SEEN THE NAME.
17 Q. YOU'RE NOT 100-PERCENT SURE THIS IS LITTLE AL,
18 ARE YOU?
19 A. THAT'S WHO I THOUGHT IT WAS.
20 Q. IF I TOLD YOU IT WAS YOUNG SICC, WOULD YOU BE
21 SURPRISED?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. YOU WOULD BE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED FRANKIE SANDOVAL?
26 A. FRANKIE SANDOVAL CAME ON -- WELL, IT'S ONE OF
27 THE NAMES THAT WAS PROVIDED FROM -- BY THE DISTRICT
28 ATTORNEY, AND I CONDUCTED A RECORDS CHECK ON FRANKIE
1783
1 SANDOVAL AND I FOUND A "FRANCISCO SANDOVAL." I DON'T KNOW

2 IF IT'S THE SAME PERSON.
3 Q. SO WHEN YOU FOUND FRANCISCO SANDOVAL, WHEN YOU
4 FOUND HIM -- YOU CHECKED PUBLIC RECORDS, THINGS LIKE THAT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. YOU DIDN'T CHECK !TUNES?
7 A. FOR FRANCISCO SANDOV~L?
8 Q. YEAH.
9 A. I DID NOT.
10 Q. OKAY. YOU DIDN'T CHECK AMAZON OR ANY OTHER
11 MUSIC SELLING WEBSITE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOUNG SICC IS A RAPPER OR
14 NOT, OR FRANKIE SANDOVAL, YOUNG SICC? YOU DON'T KNOW IF
15 THAT'S HIM OR IF THEY'RE RAPPERS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. THE HUSTLE MUSIC AND HOOD RAISED, DID YOU LEARN
18 ANYTHING ABOUT HOW THEY PROMOT~ THEMSELVES?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY USE SORT OF THE STREET
21 OR URBAN GANG IMAGERY AND THINGS LIKE THAT? YOU DON'T
22 KNOW WHETHER THEY USE THAT TO PROMOTE THEIR MUSIC?
23 A. CORRECT.
24 Q. YOU DIDN'T LOOK INTO THAT AT ALL?
25 A. NOT TO -- NOT TO THE -- JUST REVIEWING THE
26 REVIEWING THOSE, LISTENING TO SOME OF THE MUSIC AND SOME
27 OF THE LINKS, BUT I DO NOT KNOW HOW THEY RUN THE BUSINESS.
28 YES, I DO NOT.
1784
1 Q. THANK YOU. LET'S MOVE ON.

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOU CAN KEEP THAT UP, MR. TROCHA,
3 BUT YOU CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE TO.
5 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE RULES OF THE GANG,
6 DETECTIVE. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT RULES OF THE GANG
7 YESTERDAY, YOU MENTIONED BACKING UP YOUR HOMIES, RIGHT?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. NO COOPERATION WITH THE POLICE, RIGHT?
10 A. RIGHT.
11 Q. NO HANGING OUT WITH RIVAL GANG MEMBERS?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. NO SNITCHING?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. SPECIFICALLY LET'S GO INTO SNITCHING. YOU'VE
16 STATED IN THE PAST THAT SNITCHING ENCOMPASSES ALL ASPECTS
17 OF COOPERATION, NOT JUST TELLING ON THE PERSON WHO'S
18 ACCUSED OF SOMETHING, RIGHT?
19 A. YES, COULD.
20 Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE INTERVIEWING SOMEBODY
21 IN A GANG NEIGHBORHOOD AND THAT PERSON'S IN A GANG, EVEN
22 IF IT'S JUST A CASUAL, "HOW DO YOU DO," IF SOMEBODY SEES
23 THEM TALKING TO A POLICE OFFICER, THEY MIGHT GET IN
24 TROUBLE?
25 A. THEY MIGHT HAVE A SUSPICION OR THEY MIGHT WONDER
26 WHAT THEY'RE DOING. THEY'RE USED TO THE POLICE STOPS.
27 THEY KNOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE STOPPED. THEY KNOW THE
28 POLICE OFFICERS ARE GOING TO BE TALKING TO THEM.
1785
1 WHAT I'M REFERRING TO IS NOT JUST A REGULAR STOP

2 ON A REGULAR DAY. WHAT I'M REFERRING TO IS WHEN, FOR
3 EXAMPLE, THERE IS A SHOOTING AND OFFICERS RESPOND,
4 OFFICERS INTERVIEW EVERYBODY THAT IS PRESENT, THEN ONCE
5 THE DETECTIVES GO TO THE SCENE, AND LET'S SAY I PULL ONE
6 OF THOSE GUYS ASIDE TO TALK TO THEM -- AND I PROBABLY WILL
7 TALK TO ALL OF THEM, BUT -- I'LL PULL THEM ASIDE, I KNOW
8 THAT IT RAISES A SUSPICION OF WHETHER THAT GUY IS
9 COOPERATING WITH ME OR JUST COMPLYING WITH WHAT I'M
10 TELLING HIM TO DO AND TALKING TO ME.
11 SO IT RAISES A SUSPICION OF WHAT IS HE TELLING
12 ME. THAT'S WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO.
13 Q. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, PEOPLE WHO ARE ASSOCIATED
14 WITH OR MEMBERS OF A GANG, THEY'RE AVERSE TO SPEAKING WITH
'
15 THE POLICE AT ALL GENERALLY?
16 A. NOT ALL THE TIME, BUT THEY PREFER NOT TO BE SEEN
17 IF THEY ARE GOING TO TALK TO THE POLICE.
18 Q. COMING TO COURT TO TESTIFY ON A CASE IS
19 CERTAINLY PROHIBITED IN THE GANG?
20 A. THEY UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU HAVE A COURT ORDER,
21 YOU HAVE TO ATTEND. AND THEY ARE ALSO NOT GOING TO LET
22 THEM GET ARRESTED FOR NOT COMING TO COURT. THEY
23 UNDERSTAND THAT. SO IF THEY HAVE NO CHOICE, THEY'RE JUST
24 NOT GOING TO OBLIGATE THE GANG MEMBERS NOT TO EVER SHOW
25 UP.
26 Q. BECAUSE OF THESE RULES, YOUR -- MEANING THE SAN
27 DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT, DETECTIVES OR ANY DETECTIVES
28 WORKING THAT CASE IN GANGS -- ACCESS TO INFORMATION IS
1786
1 LIMITED, WOULD YOU AGREE?

2 A. WHEN IT COMES TO OBTAINING INFORMATION FROM
3 THEM?
4 Q. CORRECT.
5 A. SOMETIMES.
6 Q. AND THE LIMITATIONS ON THE EVIDENCE MEANS YOU
7 DON'T REALLY GET TO FLESH OUT THE FULL DETAILS OF EVERY
8 CASE -- EVERY GANG CASE?
9 A. NOT ALL THE TIME IN THE FIRST CONTACT.
10 Q. AND IN OTHER CASES, OTHER NONGANG CASES,
11 INFORMATION'S EASIER TO COME BY, RIGHT?
12 A. DEPENDS ON THE CASE. NONE OF THE CASES ARE
13 EQUAL. SOMETIMES IN NONGANG RELATED THERE ARE CASES YOU
14 CAN'T SOLVE. THERE'S ALSO GANG CASES THAT ARE BEING
15 SOLVED PRETTY QUICK AND YOU HAVE RECEIVED INFORMATION
16 RIGHT AWAY, SO IT VARIES.
17 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DETECTIVE: COMING TO COURT
18 TO TESTIFY IF YOU WERE A WITNESS IN A CASE IS CONSIDERED
19 SNITCHING REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE PERSON ACCUSED BY THE
20 POLICE IS ACTUALLY THE ONE WHO,DID IT, RIGHT?
21 A. COMING TO COURT -- LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTOOD
22 YOUR QUESTION. COMING TO COURT AND TESTIFYING IS
23 CONSIDERED SNITCHING. AND YOUR SECOND PART OF THE
24 QUESTION?
25 Q. EVEN IF THE PERSON WHO IS ACCUSED BY THE POLICE
26 ISN'T THE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY DID THE CRIME, RIGHT?
27 A. RIGHT, NOT EVERY SINGLE TIME THE PERSON APPEARS
28 IN COURT AND TESTIFIES HE'S GOING TO BE CONSIDERED A
1787
1 SNITCH. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THEY SAY IN COURT.

2 Q. LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE: LET'S SAY SOMEBODY
3 SHOOTS SOMEBODY AND THERE ARE LOTS OF WITNESSES AND THE
4 POLICE ARREST THE WRONG GUY. THE REAL SHOOTER, WHO'S
5 STILL OUT THERE, HE DOESN'T -- HE WOULD PUT PRESSURE ON
6 WITNESSES COMING INTO COURT STILL, RIGHT?
7 A. THE REAL SHOOTER WILL PUT PRESSURE ON THE
8 WITNESSES TO COME TO COURT?
9 Q. YES.
10 A. TO TESTIFY AGAINST THE PERSON ARRESTED?
11 Q. TO TESTIFY IN ANY MANNER AT ALL.
12 A. I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT.
13 Q. NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE?
14 A. WHERE THE REAL SHOOTER WOULD TELL THEM, "GO AND
15 TESTIFY AGAINST" OR "TESTIFY AND TELL THE OFFICERS
16 SOMETHING"? I HAVE NOT.
17 Q. WELL, WOULDN'T THAT BE LOGICAL?
18 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE, RELEVANCE.
21 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO SOME OF THE OTHER RULES, OKAY,
22 DETECTIVE? YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT SNITCHING YESTERDAY AS
23 COMPARED TO THE OTHER RULES. YOU SAID THIS ONE WAS -- I
24 THINK YOU USED THE WORD "BAD" THREE TIMES IN A ROW, "A
25 BAD, BAD, BAD THING." SNITCHING'S ONE OF THE WORST THINGS
26 YOU CAN DO IF YOU'RE A GANG MEMBER, RIGHT?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD OF INSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE
1788
1 BEEN SHOT AND KILLED FOR SNITCHING?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. THAT'S HAPPENED BEFORE?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WHAT OTHER THINGS HAVE GANG MEMBERS BEEN KILLED
6 FOR? RULES PARTICULARLY.
7 A. THEY'RE BEING KILLED FOR NOT SHARING THE GAINS
8 WHEN IT COMES TO NARCOTIC SALES. AND THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO
9 PAY TAXES. THEY'RE NOT SENDING
10 Q. LET ME STOP YOU THERE SO WE CAN EXPLAIN WHAT YOU
11 JUST SAID, "GAINS." YOU MEAN MONEY THAT THEY GOT FOR
12 DRUGS?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. AND "TAXES,., YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE IRS?
15 A. NO, CORRECT.
16 Q. WHO DO THEY PAY TAXES TO?
17 A. TO THEIR HOMIES OR THE ONES THAT ARE
18 INCARCERATED.
19 Q. THE ONES WHO ARE INCARCERATED ARE THE ONES THAT
20 ARE PART OF THE MEXICAN MAFIA?
21 A. SOME, YES.
22 Q. AND SO THE HISPANIC STREET GANGS ANSWER TO THE
23 MEXICAN MAFIA IN THE PRISON SYSTEM?
24 A. YES. NOT EVERYBODY'S PART OF -- A MEMBER OF THE
25 MEXICAN MAFIA, BUT THEY'RE CONSIDERED SOLDIERS OR THEY'RE
11
26 UNDER THE -- IN CALIFORNIA THE SERANOS" CONTROL MOST OF
27 THE HISPANIC GANGS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, SO THEY'RE
28 UNDER THAT UMBRELLA.
1789
1 NOT EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT GOES TO PRISON IS A

2 MEMBER OF THE MEXICAN MAFIA IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.
3 NOT EVERY SINGLE MEMBER THAT RECEIVES MONEY COMING FROM
4 THE GANGS IS A MEMBER OF THE MEXICAN MAFIA.
5 Q. WHAT ELSE DO THEY -- HAVE YOU SEEN RULES GET
6 BROKEN?
7 A. I HAVE SEEN RULES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED
8 FOR EMBARRASSING SOME OTHER -- OR DISRESPECTING SOME OTHER
9 GANG MEMBERS, OLDER GANG MEMBERS.
10 Q. HOW ABOUT RETALIATION AGAINST ANOTHER GANG
11 MEMBER BEING KILLED, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, IF SOMEBODY FROM
12 LOGAN KILLS SOMEBODY FROM, I DON'T KNOW, O.E.K.? SOMEBODY
13 FROM O.E.K. MIGHT RETALIATE AND KILL SOMEBODY FROM LOGAN,
14 RIGHT?
15 A. YES. I THOUGHT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT AMONG
16 THEIR OWN.
17 Q. NO, I WASN'T.
18 A. OH, YES, THERE ARE SEVERAL
.. REASONS. THERE IS
19 RETALIATION, THERE'S JUST RIVALRY, THERE IS BEING KILLED
20 DURING THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME -- A ROBBERY, AN
21 ASSAULT -- KILLINGS FOR ARSONS, TORTURES -- AND THEY HAVE
22 DIED -- NARCOTICS. THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS WHY THEY'VE
23 BEEN KILLED, YES.
24 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS HYPOTHETICAL THAT YOU WERE
25 ASKED YESTERDAY, AND LET ME REMIND THE JURY WHAT IT WAS.
26 WE HAVE O.G. 1 AND O.G. 2 WHO ARE FRIENDS AND YOUNGSTER 1
27 AND YOUNGSTER 2 WHO ARE HANGING OUT ONE DAY. YOUNGSTER 1
28 AND YOUNGSTER 2 GO HIT UP SOMEBODY FROM A RIVAL GANG.
1790
1 YOUNGSTER 1 ENDS UP GETTING SHOT AND YOUNGSTER 2 RUNS AWAY

2 FROM THAT SHOOTING.
3 AT A PARTY A FEW MONTHS LATER, O.G. 2 BEATS UP
4 AND KILLS YOUNGSTER 2. IS THAT THE HYPOTHETICAL AS YOU
5 REMEMBER?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHAT RULE IS BROKEN?
8 A. ON THE FIRST PART OF IT, WHEN THE FIRST -- WHEN
9 YOUNGSTER 2 WAS KILLED?
10 Q. WHAT RULE DID HE BREAK?
11 A. HE BROKE THE RULE OF NOT STAYING WITH
12 YOUNGSTER 2 BROKE THE RULE FOR NOT BACKING UP YOUNGSTER 1
13 AND NOT HELPING -- SHOWING THE SUPPORT THAT THEY'RE
14 EXPECTED TO SHOW, BY RUNNING AWAY.
15 Q. YOUNGSTER 2 -- IN GANG CULTURE AND GANG
16 PSYCHOLOGY AND SOCIOLOGY, YOUNGSTER 2, IF SOMEBODY'S
17 SHOOTING AT HIM AND HIS FRIEND, HE'S EXPECTED TO STAY
18 THERE EVEN IF HE'S UNARMED?
19 A. HE'S SUPPOSED TO BACK UP AND PROBABLY
20 REACTION -- OR WHEN HE SAYS SOCIOLOGY OR PSYCHOLOGY, YOUR
21 REACTION IS GOING TO BE TO RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, BUT THAT'S
22 NOT GOING TO BE THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE PERCEIVED BY THE
23 GANG. THE GANG IS GOING TO PERCEIVE THAT PERSON AS
24 SOMEBODY THAT WAS WEAK, SOMEBODY THAT WAS A COWARD,
25 SOMEBODY THAT DIDN'T SHOW HIS VALOR BY HELPING OUT THAT
26 PERSON THAT WAS DYING ON THE STREET.
27 Q. DETECTIVE, IF YOU'RE GETTING SHOT AT, YOU RUN,
28 DON'T YOU?
1791
1 A. YES. WELL, NOT ME, BUT --

2 Q. YOU WOULDN'T RUN IF SOMEBODY WAS SHOOTING AT YOU
3 AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE A GUN?
4 A. OH, IF I DIDN'T HAVE A GUN, PROBABLY I WOULD
5 COVER.
6 Q. YOU'RE UNARMED, SOMEBODY'S SHOOTING AT YOU,
7 YOU'RE GOING TO RUN, RIGHT?
8 A. THAT COULD BE A FIRST REACTION TO DO, YES.
9 Q. DON'T GANG MEMBERS KNOW THAT, TOO?
10 A. THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME.
11 Q. ISN'T THAT LOGICAL, NORMAL, NATURAL FOR SOMEBODY
12 TO RUN AWAY WHEN THEY'RE GETTING SHOT AT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. SO WHY WOULD THE OTHER GANG MEMBERS BE SO PISSED
15 OFF ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S SO OBVIOUS?
16 A. BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LIKE OUR CULTURE. THIS IS A
17 SUBCULTURE. THEY HAVE THEIR OWN WAY OF THINKING. THEY
18 HAVE THEIR OWN RULES. THEY HAVE THEIR OWN WAYS OF
19 COMMUNICATING. THEY PERCEIVE THINGS DIFFERENT THAN THE
20 NORMAL OR THE REGULAR LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.
21 THEY -- PROBABLY THE OLDER HOMIES, THEY PERCEIVE
22 SOMETHING AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO QUESTION. THAT'S THE
23 WAY THEY SEE IT AND THAT'S THE WAY THEY'RE GOING TO ACT ON
24 THE WAY THEY PERCEIVE THINGS.
25 Q. DETECTIVE, THERE'S SHOOTINGS IN GANG
26 NEIGHBORHOODS ALL THE TIME?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. MOST OF THOSE TIMES THAT THERE ARE GANG
1792
1 SHOOTINGS, PEOPLE RUN?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THIS CASE THERE WERE PROBABLY 20
4 PEOPLE IN THE PARK AND THEY ALL RAN, RIGHT?
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A SHOOTING WHERE SOMEBODY
7 DIDN 1 T RUN?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. HOW OFTEN DOES THAT HAPPEN?
10 A. NOT VERY OFTEN.
11 Q. MOST OF THE TIME PEOPLE RUN?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. IN ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH SHELLTOWN -- YOU
14 LIVED THERE, YOU WORK THERE, YOU 1 RE A DETECTIVE, YOU 1 RE A
15 PATROL OFFICER -- HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU SEEN SOMEONE
16 SHOT AND KILLED FOR THIS REASON, RUNNING AWAY WHEN ANOTHER
17 PERSON GOT SHOT?
18 A. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME.
19 Q. THIS IS THE ONLY TIME?
20 A. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED
21 IN THAT INVESTIGATION, YES.
22 Q. YOU LIVED IN SHELLTOWN 12 YEARS?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND YOU WORKED THERE FOR LONGER THAN THAT, SIX
25 YEARS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
26 A. PRIOR TO MY BECOMING A POLICE OFFICER, I WAS NOT
27 RECEIVING THAT INFORMATION ABOUT THE -- WHAT HAPPENED
28 DURING THOSE SHOOTINGS, SO I CANNOT TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT
1793
1 HAD HAPPENED IN THOSE SHOOTINGS OR THE REACTIONS OF THOSE

2 GANG MEMBERS DURING THOSE SHOOTINGS THAT I HAD KNOWLEDGE
3 OF.
4 DURING MY EXPERIENCE AS A POLICE OFFICER AND
5 DETECTIVE SPECIFICALLY IN THE GANG OF SHELLTOWN, THIS IS
6 THE FIRST TIME THAT I VE SEEN SOMEBODY BEING KILLED FOR
1
7 THAT REASON.
8 Q. ALL THIS EXPERIENCE, ALL THESE OBSERVATIONS,
9 INVESTIGATIONS, YOU HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS IN GANGS, AND
10 YOU 1 VE NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE?
11 A. NOT IN THIS GANG, SIR.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
14 REDIRECT?
15
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. MS. GASCA, JUST TO ASK SOME MORE QUESTIONS BASED
19 UPON THAT SERIES OF QUESTIONS, THE CASE MR. SPEREDELOZZI
20 ASKED YOU ABOUT WAS MOISES LOPEZ GETTING BEATEN AND SHOT
21 IN OCEAN VIEW PARK ON SEPTEMBER 13th OF 2008, CORRECT?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. THERE 1 S BEEN INFORMATION THAT THE ONLY ATTENDEES
24 AND WITNESSES TO THAT AFFAIR WERE SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
25 GANG MEMBERS, CORRECT?
26 A. AND ASSOCIATES, YES, CORRECT.
27 Q. AND MOISES LOPEZ HIMSELF WAS A SHELLTOWN
28 38TH STREET GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
1794
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. EVEN A SITUATION WHERE A FELLOW 38TH STREET GANG
3 MEMBER IS BEING BEATEN SEVEREL BY THREE PEOPLE, COULD YOU
4 EXPLAIN WHY NOT ONE FELLOW, FRIEND, FELLOW 38TH STREET
5 GANG MEMBER, STEPPED IN TO HELP MOISES LOPEZ IN THAT
6 SITUATION?
7 A. BECAUSE THEY RESPECT THE ONES THAT WERE DOING
8 IT. THEY KNOW THAT IT'S A PUNISHMENT FOR AN ACTION THAT
9 HE HAD COMMITTED, AND IT WASN'T ACCEPTABLE. THEY'RE NOT
10 GOING TO INTERFERE WITH AN OLDER GANG MEMBER WHO IS
11 APPLYING THAT -- OR DOING THAT PUNISHMENT. THAT WILL BE
12 ONE OF THE RULES. THAT WILL BE THE RESPECTING THE OLDER
13 GANG MEMBER. IF THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING, THEY'RE GOING TO
14 RESPECT WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
15 INTERFERE.
16 Q. WHAT ABOUT THIS WHOLE CONCEPT OF LOGIC OF
17 RUNNING AWAY WHEN BEING SHOT AT? WOULDN'T IT BE JUST AS
18 LOGICAL WHEN YOU SAW ONE OF YOUR DEAR FRIENDS BEING BEATEN
19 BY THREE PEOPLE, YOU WOULD GO AND HELP THAT PERSON BECAUSE
20 THEY ARE YOUR DEAR FRIEND?
21 A. YOU WILL BE EXPECTED TO DO THAT IF IT'S A RIVAL
22 GANG MEMBER DOING IT. IF IT'S ONE OF YOUR OWN DOING IT,
23 AND ESPECIALLY IF IT'S THE OLDER GANG MEMBERS THAT ARE
24 DOING IT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO INTERFERE.
25 Q. SO IF WE TAKE THIS OUT OF THE GANG CONCEPT AND
26 WE SEE A DEAR FRIEND OF SOMEBODY'S, SAY, AT THE BEACH, SAW
27 THREE PEOPLE BEATING HIM UP, THAT PERSON MIGHT BE
28 COMPELLED TO HELP THEIR FRIEND WHO'S BEING VICTIMIZED,
1795
1 CORRECT?
2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. THAT WOULD BE THE LOGICAL THING TO DO IF YOU'RE
4 NOT A GANG MEMBER?
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. DOES LOGIC APPLY TO GANG MEMBERS?
7 A. LOGIC APPLIES IN THEIR OWN WAY. THEY HAVE THEIR
8 OWN WAY OF THINKING.
9 Q. SO WHEN WE HEAR THESE QUESTIONS LIKE, "OH,
10 PEOPLE RUN AWAY WHEN HEARING GUNFIRE," THAT'S NOT ALWAYS
11 TRUE WITH GANG MEMBERS, CORRECT?
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. IN FACT, IN THE HYPOTHETICAL, YOUNGSTER 1, WHEN
14 A GUN WAS PULLED, DIDN'T RUN AWAY, DID HE?
15 A. HE DID NOT.
16 Q. HE STOOD HIS GROUND?
17 A. HE DID.
18 Q. AND HE GOT SHOT?
19 A. CORRECT.
20 Q. IT SEEMS QUITE ILLOGICAL THAT YOUNGSTER 1 WOULD
21 STAND THERE WHEN A GUN IS PRODUCED; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT?
22 A. CORRECT.
23 Q. YET HE DID?
24 A. CORRECT.
25 Q. AND HE DIED?
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS OTHER THING, ABOUT
28 SNITCHING IN COURT. ISN'T SNITCHING FOR A FELLOW GANG
1796
1 MEMBER TO COME TO COURT AND LIE ON BEHALF OF THE

2 DEFENDANT?
5 DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, MA'AM?
6 THE WITNESS: IF IT'S CONSIDERED SNITCHING WHEN YOU
7 COME AND LIE ABOUT IT?
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. LET ME ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN. IF YOU CAME INTO
10 COURT AND YOUR FELLOW GANG MEMBER IS STANDING TRIAL ON ANY
11 CRIME, AND YOU COME IN AND TEL~ A LIE THAT WILL HELP HIM
12 OUT, IS THAT SNITCHING?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. WHY NOT?
15 A. BECAUSE YOU'RE BACKING UP, YOU'RE SUPPORTING
16 THAT PERSON. YOU'RE NOT SNITCHING ON HIM. YOU'RE NOT
17 TELLING THEM ALL THE FACTS. YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE YOU WERE
18 ORDERED TO COME, OR MAYBE YOU VOLUNTEERED TO COME TO HELP.
19 THAT WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED SNITCHING.
20 Q. SO JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE COMING INTO COURT AND
21 TESTIFYING, THAT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN YOU'RE A
22 SNITCH ONCE YOU WALK THROUGH THE DOORS OUTSIDE THE
23 DEPARTMENT?
24 A. CORRECT. WHEN I MENTIONED THAT EARLIER, OR
25 YESTERDAY, I WAS REFERRING MORE TO IN THIS CASE, SAY,
26 YOU'RE A VICTIM AND -- YOU'RE A VICTIM OF A CRIME, YOU'RE
27 TESTIFYING IN COURT, AND YOU'RE TELLING THE COURT THAT THE
28 PERSON THE OFFICER ARRESTED, "YES, THIS IS THE ONE THAT
1797
1 SHOT ME," THAT WILL BE-- THAT WILL BE CONSIDERED

2 SNITCHING AMONG THE GANG MEMBERS BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT
3 SUPPOSED TO COME AND TESTIFY AGAINST THAT RIVAL GANG
4 MEMBER. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN
5 PROBLEMS.
6 Q. YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT GEOGRAPHY OF
7 SAN DIEGO, SPECIFICALLY EL CAJON VERSUS SHELLTOWN.
8 DETECTIVE GASCA, LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 265 -- IS THE AREA
9 DEPICTED IN 265 ANYWHERE NEAR EL CAJON?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. DOES TEAK STREET RUN ALL THE WAY FROM SHELLTOWN
12 TO EL CAJON?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. DID YOU INCLUDE IN YOUR GDR OF CONTACTS WITH
15 MR. DOMINGUEZ A TIME WHEN HE WAS AT A HOUSE ON TEAK AND
16 39th, HANGING OUT WITH OTHER GANG MEMBERS, IN 2008?
17 A. I BELIEVE SO. CAN I PLEASE REFER TO MY GDR TO
18 REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION?
19 Q. LET ME ASK A QUESTION BEFORE YOU DO THAT. DID
20 YOU PUT IN YOUR GDR A TIME WHEN HE WAS HANGING OUT IN JULY
21 OF 2008 AT A PERSON NAMED HEX'S HOUSE ON TEAK?
22 A. OH, YES, CORRECT.
23 Q. DID YOU PUT THAT IN THE GDR?
24 A. I DO BELIEVE SO.
25 Q. COULD YOU REFER TO THE GDR AND MAKE SURE THAT
26 THAT IS CORRECT.
27 A. SURE. WHAT IS THE DATE?
28 Q. JULY 2nd OF 2008.
1798
r 1
2
A.
Q.
ON MR. DOMINGUEZ'S ONE?
CORRECT.
3 A. I DON'T HAVE IT IN MY GDR, BUT --
4 Q. ARE YOU AWARE THAT HE WAS UP THERE AT THAT TIME?
7 DO YOU KNOW?
8 THE WITNESS: I DON'T -- I HAVE ONE QUESTION. I'M
9 PRETTY SURE YOU HAVE THE SAME GDR THAT I DO HAVE, AND I
10 DON'T HAVE IT IN MY GDR.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. WOULD THIS BE AN EXAMPLE OF KNOWING SOMETHING
13 BUT IT NOT MAKING THE GDR BECAUSE THERE'S NO PAPER TO BACK
14 IT UP WITH?
15 A. OR TO SUPPORT IT.
16 Q. CORRECT.
17 A. OKAY. CAN YOU REPEAT THE OCCASION AND THE
18 PEOPLE THAT WAS
19 Q. SURE. SEPTEMBER -- EXCUSE ME -- JULY 2nd,
20 2008, HEX'S HOUSE ON TEAK STREET. IT WOULD BE THE SAME
21 DAY LITTLE CROOKS WAS KILLED.
22 A. OH, CORRECT, AT THE 3700 BLOCK OF TEAK, NOT AT A
23 SPECIFIC, INSIDE OF A HOUSE.
24 Q. IS THAT ANYWHERE IN THE GDR THOUGH?
25 A. THAT IS NOT.
26 Q. BECAUSE THERE'S NO PAPER TO ACTUALLY BACK IT UP,
27 CORRECT?
28 A. CORRECT.
1799
1 Q. HOW ABOUT THE PARTY IN OCEAN VIEW PARK ON

2 SEPTEMBER 13th OF 2008, THE BASIS OF THIS CASE? IS THAT
3 IN THE GDR?
4 A. NO.
5 Q. HOW ABOUT OTHER TIMES -- LET'S GO WITH -- LET'S
6 PUT IT UP ON THE BOARD.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. HOW ABOUT PEOPLE'S 231 BEHIND YOU, 3-8 DAY AT
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S HOUSE IN SPRING VALLEY? IS THAT IN THE
11 GDR?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. FROM 2009?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. LOOKING AT THAT PHOTOGRAPH -- WE'VE IDENTIFIED
16 MULTIPLE PEOPLE IN IT YESTERDAY -- DO YOU SEE
17 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S WIFE IN THAT PICTURE?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. DO YOU SEE ANY OF HIS KIDS IN THAT PICTURE?
20 A. NO, NOT THAT I KNOW THAT ANY OF THOSE ARE
21 RELATED TO HIM.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY COWORKERS ARE IN THAT
23 PICTURE?
24 A. I DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THAT.
25 Q. IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE A GROUP OF OLDER PEOPLE
26 AND A GROUP OF YOUNGER PEOPLE; WOULD YOU AGREE?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. NOW, WHEN COUNSEL WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT BEING
1800
1 OLDER AND JUST HANGING OUT AND NOT BEING ACTIVE, IS

2 JUMPING MEMBERS OF A GANG INTO THE GANG BEING AN ACTIVE
3 GANG MEMBER?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. HOW ABOUT HOSTING PARTIES AT YOUR HOUSE FOR --
7 MR. TROCHA: I'M NOT DONE WITH THE QUESTION.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. HOW ABOUT HOSTING PARTIES AT YOUR HOUSE FOR
11 YOUNGER AND OLDER GANG MEMBERS?
12 A. THAT IS. THAT IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN
13 ON THOSE ACTIVITIES ARE THE OLDER HOMIES OR THE O.G.'S,
14 THOSE ARE THEIR LEVEL OF INVOLVEMENT WITH THE GANG: THEY
15 WILL HOST THE PARTIES; THEY WILL ATTEND GATHERINGS; THEY
16 WILL PARTICIPATE ONCE IN A WHILE IN THE JUMP-INS; AND
17 THEY'RE NOT, ON A REGULAR BASIS, HANGING OUT AT THE PARK.
18 Q. HOW ABOUT HANGING OUT AT THE PARK WITH
19 YOUNGSTERS; IS THAT BEING ACTIVE?
20 A. THAT IS BEING ACTIVE.
21 Q. HOW ABOUT HANGING OUT WITH YOUNGSTERS IN HOUSES
22 WITHIN THE GANG COMMUNITY?
23 A. THAT SHOWS ACTIVITY.
24 Q. WE TALKED YESTERDAY ABOUT DOCUMENTATION AND
25 ASSOCIATION AND FREQUENTING GANG NEIGHBORHOODS, AND THE
'
26 ISSUE CAME UP ABOUT WHAT IF YOU LIVE IN THE GANG
27 NEIGHBORHOOD AND HOW WOULD THAT AFFECT YOU -- YOUR STATUS
28 OF FREQUENTING A GANG NEIGHBORHOOD. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT
1801
1 LINE OF QUESTIONING?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. IF SOMEONE LIVES FIVE, 10 MILES AWAY FROM THE
4 GANG NEIGHBORHOOD YET IS FOUND ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS
5 WITHIN THE GANG NEIGHBORHOOD, WOULD YOU AGREE THEY'RE
6 MAKING AN EFFORT TO BE IN THE GANG NEIGHBORHOOD?
7 A. YES.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. THAT'S BEYOND THE
9 SCOPE OF HER EXPERTISE.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. I MEAN, THEY'RE NOT JUST WALKING OUT THE DOOR
14 AND FINDING THEMSELVES ON OCEAN VIEW AND 39th, CORRECT?
15 A. CORRECT.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SAME OBJECTION RENEWED.
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. WE HEARD QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS RECORD SITE. DO
20 YOU STILL HAVE THAT IN FRONT OF YOU, DEFENSE II?
21 A. I DO NOT.
22 Q. YOU IDENTIFIED THIS AS A SITE CONNECTED WITH
23 MR. DOMINGUEZ, CORRECT?
24 A. CORRECT.
25 Q. YOU SAID YESTERDAY THAT YOU HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK
26 AT MR. QUINTANILLA'S MYSPACE SITE?
27 A. CORRECT.
28 Q. JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?
1802
1 A. CORRECT.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. I HAND YOU PEOPLE'S 238. IT'S A THREE-PAGE
6 DOCUMENT. LET'S START WITH THE BACK PAGE OF THAT
7 DOCUMENT, DETECTIVE GASCA. CAN WE SEE JONATHAN
8 QUINTANILLA'S PICTURE ON THE BACK PAGE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. IS IT, IN FACT, HIS MYSPACE PROFILE PICTURE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT IS THE NAME OF HIS MYSPACE PROFILE?
13 A. "HOOD RAISED PRESENTS LOCKDOWN, VOLUME 1" -- OH,
14 I BELIEVE THIS IS THE NAME -- "SHELLY SHELLS, CALIFORNIA,
15 UNITED STATES."
16 Q. NOW, IF WE FLIP BACK TO THE FRONT PAGE, WHAT DO
17 WE SEE ON THE FRONT PAGE?
18 A. WE SEE A PICTURE OF EDWIN QUINTANILLA.
19 Q. IS THIS A PAGE WITHIN JONATHAN QUINTANILLA'S
20 MYSPACE PAGE?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. THIS WAS PRINTED OUT ALMOST A YEAR AGO, CORRECT?
23 AT LEAST LAST YEAR?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. CAN YOU HOLD IT UP FOR THE JURY TO SEE JONATHAN
26 QUINTANILLA'S PHOTOGRAPH.
27 A. (COMPLIES.)
28 Q. THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH POSTED ON A SITE CONNECTED
1803
1 WITH JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. THAT IS EDWIN QUINTANILLA?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. CAN YOU TELL THE JURY WHAT IT SAYS IN THE BLACK
6 AND WHITE BOX WITHIN THE PHOTOGRAPH.
7 A. YES. "LET ME LIGHT THIS BLUNT. LET ME CRACK
8 THIS BREW. LET ME POUR SOME OUT IN LIVING IN MEMORY OF
9 YOU. REST IN PEACE, MY G. LITTLE CROOKS, ST 38 O.V.P."
10 Q. "ST 38" IS SHELLTOWN 338?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT IS O.V.P.?
14 Q. IS THAT ALSO SYNONYMOUS WITH SHELLTOWN 38?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WITHIN THE PHOTOGRAPH ITSELF, IS THERE A NAME
17 AND AN "R.I.P."?
18 A. YES, "R.I.P. , LITTLE CROOKS."
19 Q. NOW I WANT YOU TO TURN TO THE SECOND PAGE OF
20 THAT DOCUMENT, DETECTIVE GASCA. DO YOU SEE A PROFILE
21 PICTURE THAT WE'VE SEEN IN DEFENSE II? DO YOU UNDERSTAND
22 THE QUESTION?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. WE SEE THE PROFILE PICTURE IN DEFENSE II.
25 THAT'S MR. DOMINGUEZ'S PAGE?
26 A. OH, YES.
r 27 Q. WHEN WE TURN BACK TO PEOPLE'S 238, DO WE SEE
28 THAT SAME PICTURE ON THE SECOND PAGE?
1804
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT IS THE SECOND PAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT,
3 DETECTIVE GASCA?
4 A. THE SECOND PAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT, IT SHOWS THE
5 COMMENTS THAT ARE BEING POSTED UNDER THE PICTURE OF
6 MR. EDWIN QUINTANILLA. SO WHOEVER MADE A COMMENT TO THIS
7 PICTURE, IT APPEARS UNDERNEATH THE PICTURE, AND ONE OF
8 THOSE COMMENTS, IT WAS MADE -- IT SHOWS A PROFILE OF
9 MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH A COMMENT.
10 Q. WHAT IS THE COMMENT?
11 A. ON JULY 24th, 2009, IT SAYS, "IT'S STILL ME
12 AND YOU, BOY, O.V.P., UNTIL I DIE, FUCK HATERS."
13 Q. O.V.P. AS IN "OCEAN VIEW PARK" AGAIN?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT DOES "FUCK HATERS" MEAN?
16 A. "FUCK HATERS" WILL BE JUST AN INSULT FOR WHOEVER
17 DISAGREED WITH THAT STATEMENT OR ANY RIVAL GANG MEMBERS.
18 Q. WHAT DOES "O.V.P. UNTIL I DIE" MEAN?
19 A. O.V.P. IS -- "O.V.P. UNTIL I DIE" IS A
20 REASSURING THAT "I'LL BE OCEAN VIEW PARK, SHELLTOWN 38,
21 UNTIL THE DAY I DIE." IT'S JUST TO SHOW WHAT I STAND FOR.
22 Q. WAS THIS SELF-ADMISSION INCLUDED IN YOUR GDR?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. WAS THIS PARTY THAT WE SEE IN PEOPLE'S 231 AT
25 THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE INCLUDED IN YOUR GDR?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. OH, AND, DETECTIVE, WHEN WE LOOK AT
28 PEOPLE'S 238, WHAT RECORD IS BEING PROMOTED IN THIS
1805
1 EXHIBIT?
2 A. 1
I DON T SEE ANY MUSIC PROMOTIONAL LINK IN THAT
3 SPECIFIC PICTURE.
4 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY RECORDS THAT
5 MR. DOMINGUEZ PRODUCED AND PUT OUT?
6 A. I HAVE NOT.
7 Q. LET 1 S TALK ABOUT TATTOOS. DO NONGANG MEMBERS
8 GET GANG TATTOOS?
9 A. DO NONGANG MEMBERS GET -- I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.
10 Q. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF'A PERSON WHO WAS NOT A
11 MEMBER OF, LET'S SAY, LOGAN GOT A LOGAN HEIGHTS TATTOO?
12 WOULD THAT PERSON'S LIFE BE IN DANGER?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHY?
15 A. BECAUSE OF CLAIMING MEMBERSHIP OF SOMETHING THAT
16 HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN TO HIM.
17 Q. IS THAT FROWNED UPON IN THE GANG COMMUNITY?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. IS GETTING TATTOOS A SIGN OF ACTIVE GANG
20 MEMBERSHIP?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. NOT JUST HAVING TATTOOS BUT GETTING NEW TATTOOS
23 AS WELL?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. IS TAKING PART IN DISCIPLINING MEMBERS BEING AN
26 ACTIVE GANG MEMBER?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WE TALKED YESTERDAY ABOUT SHOT CALLERS. I DON'T
1806
1 KNOW IF WE EVER GOT A DEFINITION. WHAT IS A SHOT CALLER?

2 A. A SHOT CALLER IS NOT JUST LIMITED TO ONE PERSON
3 IN THE GANG, A SHOT CALLER COUlD BE ANY OF THOSE
4 WELL-RESPECTED THAT HAVE GAINED AND HAVE A GOOD REPUTATION
5 AMONG THE GANG MEMBERS. A SHOT CALLER IS NOT ALWAYS
6 SOMEBODY THAT IS THERE ON A DAILY BASIS TELLING THEM WHAT
7 TO DO EVERY DAY AND TO DO. A SHOT CALLER CAN JUST APPEAR
8 ONCE IN A WHILE AND USUALLY WILL BE AFTER A SHOOTING,
9 AFTER A MAJOR INCIDENT, AT A CELEBRATION, SOMETHING, SO HE
10 CAN DISCUSS WHAT'S GOING ON.
11 IF THERE'S A SHOOTING THAT OCCURRED, HE'LL SAY,
12 "YOU GUYS NEED TO GO AND DO THIS. YOU GUYS NEED TO GO
13 BACK TO LOGAN AND DO A SHOOTING. HOW COME YOU GUYS NOT
14 DOING THIS? HOW COME YOU GUYS . NOT PUTTING IN WORK?" THIS
15 IS JUST SOMETHING -- ONCE IN A WHILE HE'LL MAKE AN
16 APPEARANCE OR ONE OF THEM WILL MAKE AN APPEARANCE AND WILL
17 LEAD THAT GANG.
18 SHOT CALLERS I ALSO HAVE SAID IS NOT LIMITED TO
19 OLDER GANG MEMBERS. IT COULD BE SOMEBODY THAT HAD
20 ACQUIRED THAT POSITION IN THE GANG. USUALLY IT WILL BE
21 OLDER GANG MEMBERS. THEY HAVE DONE ALREADY THE ACTIVE --
22 THEY HAVE PASSED FROM THE ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP TO THAT O.G.
23 STATUS IN THE GANG. THEY'RE THE ONES THAT MAKE THE
24 DECISIONS. THEY'RE THE ONES WHETHER THEY APPROVE
25 SOMETHING OR NOT.
26 MANY TIMES THEY HAVE FAMILIES. THEY HAVE
27 LEGITIMATE JOBS. THEY DON'T -- THEY'RE NOT INVOLVED IN
28 THE EVERYDAY ACTIVITIES, BUT THEY'RE STILL WELL RESPECTED.
1807
1 THEY'RE VERY INFLUENTIAL AND THEY'RE STREETWISE, SO THEY

2 CAN GIVE ADVICE TO THE YOUNGER IF THEY NEED IT.
3 Q. IS A SHOT CALLER AKIN TO, LIKE, A BOSS?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. ARE THERE MULTIPLE BOSSES WITHIN GANGS?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. SO THE SHOT CALLER ISN'T THE TOP DOG OR, LIKE,
8 THE CEO OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. IT WOULDN'T BE, LIKE, THE PRESIDENT IN AN OUTLAW
11 MOTORCYCLE GANG?
12 A. IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT IN HISPANIC GANGS.
13 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE TERM "GREEN LIGHT"?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT IS "GREEN LIGHT" IN TERMS OF HISPANIC
16 GANGS?
17 A. "GREEN LIGHT," IT CO~ES FROM THE MEXICAN MAFIA.
18 "GREEN LIGHT" IS WHEN THEY HAVE GIVEN EITHER A PERSON THE
19 AUTHORITY TO GO AND DO SOMETHING, "YOU HAVE A GREEN LIGHT
20 TO GO AND DO CERTAIN THINGS."
21 ALSO IT CAN BE USED WHEN A PERSON'S BEING
22 GREEN-LIGHTED. THAT MEANS THEY'RE GOING TO BE PUT IN
23 CHECK. USUALLY IT WILL BE KILLING THIS PERSON. WHEN THE
24 MAFIA GREEN-LIGHTS SOMEBODY, IT'S GOING TO BE -- THAT
25 PERSON'S GOING TO BE KILLED.
26 WHEN A "SERANO" OR A SOLDIER OR -- IN A
27 STREET-LEVEL GANG, WHEN THE GANG'S BEING GREEN-LIGHTED BY
28 ANOTHER GANG, WHAT IS GOING TO BE -- THIS GANG IS GOING TO
1808
r 1 BE ATTACKED; THIS GANG IS JUST GOING TO BE SHOT AT ALL THE

2 TIME. THEY'RE JUST GOING TO TRY TO PUT THEM DOWN. AND
3 THAT WILL BE AN ORDER FROM ABOVE, FROM ONE OF THE
4 "SERANOS," SOMEBODY THAT IS IN CHARGE.
5 TO GREEN-LIGHT A WHOLE GANG IS A VERY SERIOUS
6 THING AND YOU DON'T SEE IT A LOT, BUT TO GREEN-LIGHT ONE
7 PERSON, THAT'S COMMON. IF SOMEBODY VIOLATES A RULE OR A
8 LAW AMONG THE GANGS, THAT PERSON IS GOING TO BE
9 GREEN-LIGHTED.
10 Q. SO THIS IS A TERM THAT ORIGINATED WITH THE
11 MEXICAN MAFIA?
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. IS IT A TERM THAT'S ALSO USED NOW WITHIN
14 STREET-LEVEL HISPANIC STREET GANGS?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. IN HISPANIC STREET GANGS AT THE STREET LEVEL,
17 WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO PUT GREEN LIGHTS ON PEOPLE?
18 A. THE SHOT CALLERS OR THE O.G.'S OF THE GANG WHEN
19 IT COMES TO THEIR OWN GANG.
21 NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR .
..
22 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, SIDEBAR RULE IN
23 EFFECT FOR JUST A MOMENT. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO STAND AND
24 STRETCH. WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD.
25 DETECTIVE, IF YOU'LL PLEASE JUST SIT THERE, I'LL
26 APPRECIATE IT.
28 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. A
1809
1 MATTER OF SCHEDULING IS ALL. WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD.

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY RECROSS.
3
6 Q. DETECTIVE, ON REDIRECT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
7 WHAT, IN THE HYPOTHETICAL, PEOPLE WATCHING MAY HAVE BEEN
8 THINKING, RIGHT? FOR EXAMPLE, WHY DIDN'T THEY JUMP IN AND
9 HELP?
10 A. OH, THE REST OF THE GANG MEMBERS AT THE PARK
11 DURING THE KILLING OF THE YOUNGSTER 2?
12 Q. CORRECT. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT, RIGHT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. YOU DON'T READ MINDS, DO YOU?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. YOU'RE NOT SOME KIND OF PSYCHIC OR ANYTHING LIKE
17 THAT?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. SO YOU ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW -- YOU DON'T KNOW
20 WHAT THEY WERE THINKING? YOU'RE JUST MAKING A GUESS,
21 RIGHT?
22 A. I'M NOT MAKING A GUESS. I'M JUST MAKING MY
23 OPINION OF WHAT IS -- WHAT THE GANG MEMBERS DO AND THE WAY
24 THEY REACT BASED ON THE RULES.
25 Q. IT'S AN EDUCATED GUESS OR AN INFORMED GUESS?
26 A. I WOULDN'T CALL IT A GUESS.
27 Q. WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT?
28 A. IT'S AN OPINION.
1810
1 Q. AN OPINION. BUT, AGAIN, THAT'S WHAT IT IS, IS

2 AN OPINION, RIGHT?
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. YOU CAN'T SAY BASED ON THE RULES AND BASED ON
5 THE HYPOTHETICAL THIS IS DEFINITELY WHAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE
6 THINKING?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT 231. IT'S ON THE BOARD.
9 DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT HOUSE IS?
10 A. I DO KNOW NOW.
11 Q. WHERE?
12 A. 453 MARIA AVENUE IN SPRING VALLEY.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S USED FOR?
14 A. I KNOW THAT IT WAS GIVEN AS A RESIDENCE FOR
15 SANTIAGO NAVA, WHO'S A SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBER, BUT I DO NOT
16 KNOW WHAT HE USES IT FOR.
17 Q. ISN'T IT A RECORDING STUDIO?
18 A. I DO NOT KNOW.
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO HAS KEYS TO THAT PLACE, WHO HAS
20 ACCESS TO IT?
21 A. I'M ASSUMING SANTIAGO NAVA BECAUSE HE HAD
22 CLAIMED IT AS HIS HOUSE, BUT I DO NOT KNOW.
23 Q. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF MY CLIENT PRODUCED
24 ANY RECORDS, RIGHT?
25 A. CORRECT. I -- SORRY. I HAVE KNOWLEDGE THAT HE
26 IS IN THE PRODUCTION OF RECORDS.
27 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT GGG WAS MARKED
1811
2 Q. SHOWING GGG
3 MR. TROCHA: I'D OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. MR. DOMINGUEZ'S
4 NAME IS NOT ON THAT EXHIBIT.
5 THE COURT: WELL, HE CAN ASK THE WITNESS IF HE
6 KNOWS -- OVERRULED -- IF SHE KNOWS. I'M SORRY.
8 Q. WHAT DOES THIS LOOK LIKE TO YOU?
9 A. A COPY OF A C.D.
10 Q. A C.D. COVER?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHOSE C.D. IS IT?
13 A. LITTLE AL'S.
14 Q. AND DO YOU SEE WHAT'S WRITTEN HERE ON THE
15 BOTTOM?
16 A. "HOOD RAISED."
17 Q. "HOOD RAISED"?
18 A. UH-HUH.
19 Q. DOES THE FONT LOOK SIMILAR TO SOMETHING YOU'VE
20 SEEN BEFORE?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?
23 A. IT LOOKS LIKE THE SAME LETTERS AND WORDS AND
24 FONT THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS TATTOOED ON HIS RIGHT FOREARM.
27 FURTHER REDIRECT?
28 MR. TROCHA: JUST A LITTLE BIT, YOUR HONOR.
1812

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. PEOPLE'S 235 BEHIND YOU, DETECTIVE GASCA, THAT'S
4 THE SAME FONT ON LITTLE AL'S ARM -- IS IT NOT? --
5 A. YES.
6 Q. --WHOSE NAME IS ALSO ON THAT C.D.?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. AND MR. DOMINGUEZ'S NAME IS NOWHERE NEAR THAT
9 c.D.?
10 A. NOT THAT I SAW.
11 Q. LAST QUESTION, DETECTIVE. PEOPLE'S 231, WE SEE
12 PEOPLE DOING HAND SIGNS. WHAT ARE THE PURPOSES OF HAND
13 SIGNS IN RELATION TO STREET GANGS?
14 A. THE PURPOSE OF THE HAND SIGNS IS TO IDENTIFY
15 THEMSELVES WITH THE GANG. IN THIS CASE -- EVERY GANG HAS
16 A PARTICULAR HAND SIGN TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES. EACH GANG
17 MEMBER KNOWS THEIR OWN HAND SIGNS. THERE ARE DIFFERENT
18 GANG SIGNS AMONG THE GANGS THAT HAS A DIFFERENT MEANING.
19 THEY WILL HAVE NUMBERS. ALL THOSE MEANINGS WILL BE
20 ASSOCIATED WITH THE GANG. LOGAN HAS THEIR OWN. SHELLTOWN
21 HAS THEIR OWN. EVERY SINGLE HISPANIC GANG HAS THEIR OWN
22 HAND SIGNS.
23 IN THIS PICTURE YOU SEE A VARIETY OF HAND SIGNS
24 AND THEY'RE ALL ASSOCIATED WITH SHELLTOWN 38. IF YOU
25 SEE -- I'M GOING TO USE THE POJNTER. SOMETIMES IT'S HARD
26 TO SEE OR READ, BUT OVER HERE MR. DIAZ IS DISPLAYING IS
27 PUTTING TOGETHER BOTH OF HIS HANDS AND DISPLAYING WHAT
28 APPEARS TO BE JUST A CIRCLE, A CIRCLE, BUT I'LL TRY TO DO
1813
1 IT MYSELF.
2 HE IS SHOWING A "3" AND AN "8," EVEN THOUGH HIS
3 FINGERS ARE NOT CLOSELY TOGETHER IN THAT PICTURE. BUT
4 WHAT HE'S DOING, HE'S PUTTING -- MAKING TWO CIRCLES WITH
5 HIS INDEX AND HIS THUMB ON BOTH HANDS AND PUTTING THEM
6 TOGETHER TO MAKE AN "8."
7 THEN HE IS USING HIS MIDDLE FINGERS AND PUTTING
8 THEM TOGETHER, AND I CANNOT EXTEND MY OTHER FINGERS, BUT
9 IT WILL BE A SHAPE OF A "3" WITH THE REST OF THE FINGERS,
10 AND IT WILL BE THE "3" AND THE "8" TO REPRESENT "38."
11 ANOTHER ONE, A COMMON ONE, WILL BE JUST MAKING A
12 "38" WITH ONE HAND BY CURLING YOUR INDEX AND TOUCHING THE
13 TIP OF YOUR THUMB AND CURLING YOUR MIDDLE FINGER TO
14 MAKE -- TO FORM AN "8 11
AND THEN EXTENDING YOUR --
15 EXTENDING THIS -- TWO FINGERS, YOUR PINKY AND YOUR RING
16 FINGER, TO MAKE A "3" AND AN 11
8. 11
SO YOU CAN PROBABLY SEE
17 IT -- NOT WELL WITH MY HAND, BUT YOU CAN SEE THE "38" OVER
18 HERE.
19 THE NO. 2, WHAT LOOKS LIKE A PEACE SIGN, IT'S
20 NOT A PEACE SIGN. THAT'S SHOWING A NO. 2. THE NO. 2, IF
21 YOU REMEMBER, IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE 20, AND THE CIRCLE ON
22 THE BOTTOM, IT WILL BE THE ZERO. SO 11
2-0 11
REPRESENTS "T"
23 FOR TOWN, AND THEY'RE CALLED 11
TOWNERS," SO THEY REFER TO
24 EACH OTHER AS, "I'M FROM THE TOWN," AND THAT'S THEIR
25 REPRESENTATION OF THAT -- WHAT APPEARS TO BE A PEACE SIGN.
26 THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE DISPLAYED ON THIS
27 PICTURE THAT I CAN SEE.
28 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, DETECTIVE. NOTHING FURTHER.
1814

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
3 THE COURT: DETECTIVE GASCA, THANK YOU, MA'AM. YOU
4 MAY STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
6 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S TAKE A
7 RECESS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. WE'LL RECONVENE
8 AT 10:30, 15 MINUTES FROM NOW. THANK YOU.
14 WHEN THE COURT CALLED THE LAST SIDEBAR, IT HAD
15 TO DO WITH SCHEDULING AND THE FACT THAT MR. TROCHA HAS A
16 MATTER IN ANOTHER DEPARTMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI INFORMED THE COURT AT SIDEBAR
18 THAT HE HAD A COUPLE OF ISSUES HE WANTED TO ADDRESS OUT OF
19 THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY AND ON THE RECORD.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, IF YOU'D JUST ACQUAINT ME WITH
21 WHAT THOSE ISSUES ARE, PLEASE,,AND LET'S FIGURE OUT A TIME
22 TO DO THAT.
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THEY'RE ACTUALLY KIND OF SIMPLE.
24 ONE IS I'VE GOT A WITNESS WHO NEEDS TO GET OUT OF HERE
25 VERY QUICKLY BECAUSE HE IS DIABETIC AND HE NEEDS HIS
26 INSULIN, HE SAID, BY 11:30, SO I'D LIKE TO DO HIM AS MY
27 FIRST WITNESS.
1815
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND FOR ANOTHER WITNESS I'M GOING

2 TO NEED A SPANISH INTERPRETER., I HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS,
3 HER NAME IS EVELYN QUINTERROS. SHE WAS ORDERED BACK.
4 SHE'S NOT HERE TODAY. SHE, YOUR HONOR, IS HAVING A BABY
5 TODAY, SO I THINK IT'S NOT A WILLFUL ABSCONDING. I DON'T
6 KNOW HOW WE'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH IT. I DON'T KNOW IF
7 SHE'LL BE HEALTHY ENOUGH TO COME BACK OR WHAT'S GOING TO
8 GO ON WITH THAT, SO WE SHOULD ADDRESS THAT.
9 THEN I'D LIKE TO MAKE -- WHEN THE PROSECUTION
10 CLOSES, I'D LIKE TO MAKE AN 1118.1 MOTION. AND ALSO THE
11 LAST ISSUE IS WE HAVE A COUPLE INSTANCES WHERE WE'VE
12 TALKED TO WITNESSES AND THE WITNESSES HAVE TOLD US THAT
13 THEY'VE BEEN TOLD BY THE PROSECUTION NOT TO TALK TO US, SO
14 I THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE WE NEED TO ADDRESS.
15 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA -- THANK YOU,
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
17 MR. TROCHA, WHY DON'T YOU MAKE ARRANGEMENTS TO
18 HAVE YOUR 29 MATTER HANDLED.
19 MR. TROCHA: OKAY.
20 THE COURT: AND THEN -- WILL THAT REQUIRE YOU TO GO
21 DOWN THERE?
22 MR. TROCHA: I'LL RUN DOWN AND TALK TO THE CALENDAR
23 DEPUTY. IT SHOULD TAKE ME NO MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES.
24 THE COURT: WHEN YOU GET BACK -- YOUR FIRST WITNESS,
25 OF COURSE, WE CAN PUT ON FIRST' THE DIABETIC WITNESS.
26 WE'LL NEED TO -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH TIME YOU INTEND TO
27 ARGUE THE 1118.1 MOTION, BUT WE'LL NEED TO BLOCK SOME TIME
28 TO DO THAT, SO YOUR WITNESS MAY BE PUSHED HERE A LITTLE
1816
1 BIT.
2 WHEN DO YOU ANTICIPATE THE WITNESS FOR THE
3 SPANISH INTERPRETER?
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HOPEFULLY, IF WE CAN GET ONE HERE
5 BY 11:00 OR SO -- IS THAT POSSIBLE?
6 THE COURT: DO YOU THINK THE FIRST WITNESS WILL
7 THE DIABETIC PERSON WILL NOT TAKE VERY LONG?
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DON'T THINK SO. IT'S
9 JONATHAN QUINTANILLA.
10 MR. TROCHA: I HAVE QUESTIONS FOR HIM, BUT IT'S NOT
11 GOING TO BE LENGTHY.
12 THE COURT: ROSIE, WHAT'S THE PROCEDURE WHEN A
13 DEFENSE WITNESS CONTEMPLATES -- REQUIRES AN INTERPRETER?
14 THE CLERK: I JUST NEED TO CALL DOWN, YOUR HONOR, AND
15 SEE IF THEY HAVE SOMEONE AVAILABLE.
16 THE COURT: LET'S TRY TO ASK THEM TO GET SOMEBODY
17 HERE OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, SO WE DON'T KEEP THE
18 JURY WAITING, BY 11:00.
19 WE'LL BE IN RECESS THEN. WHEN MR. TROCHA GETS
20 BACK, WE'LL ADDRESS THE OTHER ISSUES THAT WE CAN ADDRESS.
24 (RECESS TAKEN.)
27 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND
28 GENTLEMEN. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. NO
1817
1 MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.

2 THE PEOPLE REST SUBJECT TO RECEIPT OF THE
3 EXHIBITS?
4 MR. TROCHA: YES, YOUR HONOR.
5 THE COURT: THANK YOU. I'LL ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT IN
6 OPEN COURT AS WELL, BUT THAT WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE
7 OCCURRED.
8 WHAT I PROPOSE THAT WE DO IS THIS WITH RESPECT
9 TO EXHIBITS: I'LL INVITE COUNSEL TO MEET AND CONFER WITH
10 RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS THAT HAVE BEEN MARKED AND
11 DISCUSSED, AND LET ME KNOW WHICH ONES WE NEED TO ARGUE
12 ABOUT. WE CAN DO THAT LATER. I'LL DEEM THE PEOPLE TO
13 HAVE RESTED SUBJECT TO RECEIPT OF THOSE EXHIBITS.
14 THE NEXT ORDER OF BUSINESS, I THINK, WOULD BE,
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOUR MOTION.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I'D ASK
17 THAT THIS CASE BE ACQUITTED PURSUANT TO 1118.1. TWO
18 WITNESSES -- BASICALLY, IT'S A THREE-WITNESS CASE FOR THE
19 PROSECUTION: ANDRES LOPEZ, GLENNYS BERUMAN AND
20 SHAWN MONTPETIT. BASED ON THE EVIDENCE OF ALL THREE, I
21 DON'T THINK THE PEOPLE HAVE MET THEIR BURDEN OF PROVING
22 BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT EITHER THE CHARGES OR THE
23 ALLEGATIONS. THE STANDARD IS NO REASONABLE JURY COULD
24 CONVICT. IT'S THE SAME STANDARD TO REVERSE A CONVICTION
25 ON APPEAL.
THE WITNESSES WERE NOT CREDIBLE. BOTH OF THE
r
\
26
27 WITNESSES HAVE -- ANDRES LOPEZ ESPECIALLY HAD A TON OF
28 INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS AND WAS SO -- HIS TESTIMONY WAS SO
1818
1 INCREDIBLE THAT NO REASONABLE JURY COULD RELY ON THAT.

2 GLENNYS BERUMAN, SAME THING: SHE HAD A BUNCH OF
3 INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS. IN ADDITION TO THAT, SHE WASN'T
4 EVEN THERE. HER TESTIMONY IS BASICALLY SOMEBODY ELSE WAS
5 THERE AND HE SAW IT, AND WITHOUT PRESENTING FURTHER
6 EVIDENCE ON THAT, WHICH WE WILL DO, THAT'S JUST NOT GOOD
7 ENOUGH FOR A CONVICTION ON APPEAL.
8 SHAWN MONTPETIT WITH THE GLOVES -- I THINK
9 DURING HIS TESTIMONY IT CAME OUT THAT THIS IS A
10 COMPLICATED SAMPLE, A LOT OF PEOPLE CANNOT BE EXCLUDED AS
11 A SOURCE OF THE DNA FROM THE GLOVES, AND SO I DON'T THINK
12 THE GLOVES ARE WHAT A REASONABLE JURY COULD RELY ON TO
13 CONVICT EITHER.
14 EVEN ALL THREE PUT TOGETHER, THE TOTALITY OF THE
15 CIRCUMSTANCES, I STILL DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S ENOUGH. THANK
16 YOU.
18 PEOPLE?
19 MR. TROCHA: GIVEN THE FACTS IN THE CASE AND THE
20 WITNESSES' TESTIMONY -- DEFENSE HAS HIGHLIGHTED A HANDFUL
21 OF THEM -- I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE. I THINK THAT THERE IS
22 MORE THAN AMPLE EVIDENCE FOR A JURY TO CONVICT AND TO
23 SUSTAIN A CONVICTION ON APPEAL, YOUR HONOR.
24 THE COURT: THE TRIAL COURT, IN RULING ON A MOTION
25 FOR JUDGMENT OF ACQUITTAL UNDER SECTION 1118.1, USES, AS
26 COUNSEL HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED, THE SAME TEST THAT AN APPELLATE
27 COURT WOULD USE IN ADDRESSING A CHALLENGE TO THE
28 SUFFICIENCY OF EVIDENCE. THAT IS THIS: IT'S THE
1819
1 SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE TEST.

2 THE QUESTION IS NOT WHAT THE JUDGE OR THE COURT
3 OF APPEAL WOULD DO IF HE OR IT WERE THE TRIER OF FACT; THE
4 QUESTION INSTEAD IS WHETHER THERE IS EVIDENCE IN THE
11
5 RECORD -- AND BY EVIDENCEu I INCLUDE REASONABLE
6 INFERENCES TO BE DRAWN FROM THE EVIDENCE -- THAT WOULD
7 CONSTITUTE SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE OF EVERY ELEMENT OF THE
8 OFFENSE OR OF THE ALLEGATION. IS THERE SUBSTANTIAL
9 EVIDENCE SUCH THAT IF A JURY DID ACCEPT IT, DUE PROCESS
10 WOULD BE SATISFIED AND BASICALLY SOCIETY WOULD HAVE FAITH
11 IN THE JUDGMENT.
12 I THINK THAT CASE LAW TELLS US THAT JUST BECAUSE
13 SOMETHING IS IN THE RECORD DOESN'T NECESSARILY MAKE IT
14 SUBSTANTIAL. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE RECORD AS A WHOLE.
15 YOU CAN'T JUST FOCUS ON ISOLATED BITS OF EVIDENCE.
16 FRANKLY, I THINK APPELLATE COURTS DO THAT SOMETIMES. IT
17 DOES REQUIRE A VIEW OF THE EVIDENCE AS A WHOLE.
18 IN THIS CASE I AM SATISFIED THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL
19 EVIDENCE THAT WOULD SUPPORT EVERY ELEMENT OF EVERY
20 ALLEGATION AND CRIME CHARGED HERE. WE NOT ONLY HAVE THE
21 TESTIMONY OF ANDRES, THE CREDIBILITY OF WHICH WILL BE
22 DECIDED BY THE JURORS, BUT WE HAVE THE TESTIMONY VIA
23 EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 1235 OF JOSUE GUTIERREZ, NOW I
24 SUBMIT OR BELIEVE COMING FROM NOT JUST MS. BERUMAN, BUT
25 MS. BERUMAN AND MS. MARTINEZ AS WELL.
26 WHEN I OVERRULED THE DEFENSE OBJECTIONS TO THE
27 CROSS-EXAMINATION WITH RESPECT TO MS. MARTINEZ AND WHAT
28 JOSUE HAD TOLD HER, AND I GAVE,THAT CAUTIONARY INSTRUCTION
1820
(' 1 TO THE JURORS, I WAS DOING THAT UNDER SECTION 403(A)(2) OF

2 THE EVIDENCE CODE. I THINK THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE
3 RIGHT THERE THAT IF THE JURY BELIEVES THAT JOSUE WAS THERE
4 AND SAW IT, THEY CAN CONSIDER THAT TESTIMONY, AND THAT
5 TESTIMONY WOULD BE SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE.
6 THE DNA EVIDENCE, OF COURSE, IS NOT THE KIND OF
7 ONE IN SEXTILLIONS THAT WE'RE USED TO SEEING, BUT IT'S
8 CERTAINLY A CIRCUMSTANCE THAT WOULD GO TO INCLUDE
9 MR. DOMINGUEZ AS THE KILLER HERE. WE HAVE SOME EVIDENCE
10 OF MOTIVE THAT LEADS TO PURPORTED EYEWITNESSES THAT PUT
11 HIM AT THE SCENE.
12 IT WILL BE UP TO THE JURY TO DETERMINE THE
13 ULTIMATE WEIGHT AND VALUE OF THAT EVIDENCE, BUT I'M
14 SATISFIED THAT THIS IS SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE AND FAR MORE
15 THAN JUST ISOLATED BITS OF EVIDENCE, TO QUOTE ONE CASE,
16 "TORN FROM THE CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE RECORD." I THINK THE
17 CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE RECORD IS ADEQUATE. THE MOTION FOR
18 JUDGMENT OF ACQUITTAL IS DENIED.
19 NOW, WE NEED TO GET YOUR WITNESS ON, I WOULD
20 THINK, AND THEN WE CAN ADDRESS, OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF
21 THE JURY, YOUR OTHER ISSUE THAT YOU WANTED TO RAISE ABOUT
22 THE ALLEGATION THAT THE PROSECUTION HAS TOLD WITNESSES NOT
23 TO TALK TO YOU.
24 DOES THAT SEEM LIKE AN APPROPRIATE BATTING
25 ORDER?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S FINE, BUT THERE IS
27 SOMETHING I DO WANT TO ADDRESS IMMEDIATELY.
1821
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THERE'S ADDITIONAL DISCOVERY AND

2 I'M WILLING TO DISCLOSE IT IN OPEN COURT. DURING THE
3 BREAK A WITNESS, CARLOS RIOS -- THE PROSECUTOR KNOWS WHO
4 HE IS. HE WORKS FOR THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO, AT THE REC
5 CENTER. HE'S AN OLDER GENTLEMAN -- HE IDENTIFIED JOSUE
6 GUTIERREZ AS BEING ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN WHO WAS AT THE
7 QUINCEANERA ABOUT FIVE OR 10 MINUTES BEFORE THE SHOOTING.
8 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THAT DISCLOSURE, AND
9 I'LL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU -- OBVIOUSLY, IT'S UP TO YOU
10 WHETHER YOU CALL THAT WITNESS.
11 MR. TROCHA, DO YOU WISH TO BE HEARD AT THIS
12 JUNCTURE?
13 MR. TROCHA: NO.
14 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU FOR THAT.
15 THE NAME OF YOUR FIRST WITNESS?
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S GOING TO BE JONATHAN
17 QUINTANILLA.
18 THE COURT: THIS IS THE GENTLEMAN WITH THE DIABETIC
19 ISSUE?
21 THE COURT: WHEN WE BRING THE JURORS BACK IN, I WILL
22 ASK THE PEOPLE IF THERE'S FURTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE
23 PEOPLE. THE PEOPLE CAN MAKE THEIR ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THEY
24 REST SUBJECT TO THE RECEIPT OF THE EXHIBITS, AND IT IS
25 THEN I'LL SAY, "OVER TO THE DEFENSE," MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
26 MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE, DEPUTY TRAPP.
1822
1 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU. THE

2 RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES
3 AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
4 MR. TROCHA, FURTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE PEOPLE?
5 MR. TROCHA: NO, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE REST SUBJECT
6 TO THE ADMISSION OF OUR EXHIBITS.
8 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT
9 THE PEOPLE HAVE RESTED THE PRESENTATION OF THE EVIDENCE
10 AND WHAT WE CALL THEIR "CASE IN CHIEF."
11 WE NOW GO OVER TO THE DEFENSE FOR THE
12 PRESENTATION OF ANY EVIDENCE THE DEFENSE WOULD LIKE TO DO.
13 AS YOU KNOW, WE'VE DONE THIS IN BITS AND PIECES BY CALLING
14 WITNESSES OUT OF ORDER. THE COURT AND COUNSEL WILL
15 DETERMINE EXACTLY WHAT OF THE PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS YOU'LL SEE
16 WHEN YOU'RE NOT PRESENT, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE -- HAVE
17 THAT INFLICTED UPON YOU.
18 I WILL NOW INVITE MR. SPEREDELOZZI TO PRESENT
19 ANY EVIDENCE THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO PRESENT.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT
21 WITNESS.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. THE DEFENSE CALLS
23 JONATHAN QUINTANILLA.
25 \\
26 \\
27 \\
28 \\
1823
1 LUIS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA,

4
5 THE WITNESS: YES.
7 WITNESS STAND.
8 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU WOULD,
9 SIR. GOOD MORNING TO YOU.
10 THE WITNESS: '
GOOD MORNING.
14 THE WITNESS: LUIS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA, L-U-I-S,
15 JONATHAN, J-0-N-A-T-H-A-N, QUINTANILLA, Q-U-I-N-T-A-N-I,
16 DOUBLE L, -A.
19
22 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. QUINTANILLA.
23 A. GOOD MORNING.
24 Q. MR. QUINTANILLA, AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE WERE
25 YOU A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
28 A. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHEN THEY DOCUMENTED ME.
1824
1 Q. BUT THAT'S NOT WHEN YOU BECAME A MEMBER, RIGHT?

2 A. AROUND THE TIME. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, BUT --
3 Q. HOW OLD ARE YOU, MR. QUINTANILLA?
4 A. 26.
5 Q. DO YOU KNOW A FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. CAN YOU POINT HIM OUT TODAY.
8 A. HE'S MY FRIEND OVER THERE (INDICATING).
9 Q. WHAT IS HE WEARING?
10 A. BLUE SUIT WITH A STRIPED BLUE TIE.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE WITNESS
12 HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT?
15 Q. MR. QUINTANILLA, DO YOU HAVE AN AKA OR A
16 NICKNAME THAT YOU GO BY AS WELL?
17 A. FAMILY-WISE OR GANG-WISE?
18 Q. GANG-WISE.
19 A. YEAH, MY GANG MONIKER.
20 Q. WHAT IS IT?
21 A. WHAT IT USED TO BE IS "CROOKS."
22 Q. "CROOKS"?
23 A. C-R, DOUBLE 0, K-S.
24 Q. DO YOU HAVE A LITTLE,BROTHER?
25 A. I HAVE ONE -- THREE LITTLE BROTHERS.
26 Q. DID YOU HAVE A LITTLE BROTHER WHO PASSED AWAY A
27 FEW YEARS AGO?
28 A. YES.
1825
1 Q. WHAT WAS HIS NAME?

2 A. EDWIN.
3 Q. WHEN HE PASSED AWAY, WAS YOUR FAMILY MAD AT
4 ANYONE OVER THAT, OVER WHAT HAPPENED?
5 A. WELL, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY WHEN YOU LOSE A
6 FAMILY MEMBER YOU'RE MORE SAD, BUT THERE'S SOME THINGS
7 THAT MAKE YOU MAD, LIKE WHY SOMEBODY HAD TO DO THAT TO
8 HIM, YOU KNOW, BUT MORE SAD.
9 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO MOISES LOPEZ IS?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. DID YOU HEAR ABOUT HIM?
12 A. OH, BECAUSE OF THIS CASE. I LEARNED THAT IN
13 THE LAST --
14 Q. OKAY. WERE YOU AWARE THAT HE PASSED AWAY ON
15 SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. ON SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008, WHERE WERE YOU?
18 A. I BELIEVE I WAS IN PRISON.
19 Q. WHAT PRISON?
20 A. DONOVAN STATE PRISON.
21 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET RELEASED FROM PRISON?
22 A. NOVEMBER 26th.
23 Q. OF 2008?
24 A. YEAH.
25 Q. SO IT'S SAFE TO SAY YOU WERE NOT AT THE PARK
26 WHEN HE -- WHEN MOISES PASSED AWAY ON SEPTEMBER 13th,
27 2008?
28 A. NO. I WAS IN JAIL. ,
1826

4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
7 Q. MR. QUINTANILLA, WHERE WERE YOU ON
8 MARCH 8th OF 2009?
9 A. I DON'T RECALL.
10 Q. YOU SURE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE A PHOTOGRAPH
11 THAT WOULD JOG YOUR MEMORY?
12 WHY DON'T YOU TURN AROUND AND LOOK AT
13 PEOPLE'S 231 BEHIND YOU. DO YOU SEE YOU IN THAT
14 PHOTOGRAPH?
15 A. AH. THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE THAT BIGGER?
16 Q. THAT'S AS BIG AS IT CAN GET. I'M SORRY.
17 A. EVERYTHING ON THERE IS BLURRY SO I CAN'T REALLY
18 SEE IT.
19 THE COURT: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU JUST STEP DOWN AND
20 GET AS CLOSE AS YOU NEED TO, SIR.
22 THE WITNESS: I CAN'T MAKE OUT THE FACES.
23 THE COURT: HE SAID, "I CAN'T MAKE OUT THE FACES."
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
25 Q. DO YOU SEE THIS PERSON ALL THE WAY IN THE BACK
26 WITH THE MUSTACHE?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. IS THAT YOU?
1827
1 A. I REALLY CAN'T MAKE IT OUT.

2 Q. WERE YOU IN SPRING VALLEY ON THAT DAY, ON
3 MARCH gth OF 2009?
4 A. LIKE I SAID, I DON'T -- I CAN'T SEE, SO I DON'T
5 KNOW WHERE I WAS AT THAT DAY.
6 Q. WHEN DID YOU START LOSING YOUR SIGHT?
7 A. MY WHAT?
8 Q. YOUR SIGHT.
9 A. SIGHT FOR WHAT?
10 Q. YOUR EYES.
11 A. OH. PROBABLY WITHIN THE LAST FOUR MONTHS. I
12 JUST GOT DIAGNOSED WITH DIABETES, SO THAT'S PART OF IT.
13 Q. SO AFTER THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN COURT LOOKING
14 AT THAT PICTURE WHERE YOU ACTUALLY DID SEE YOURSELF, THAT
15 WOULD BE THE TIME FRAME?
16 A. YEAH. WELL, I'M A BIG GUY, SO IF YOU SEE ME ON
17 THERE, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO POINT ME OUT, YOU KNOW.
18 Q. IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON YOU CHOSE TO WEAR
19 GRAY AND BLACK TO COURT TODAY, MR. QUINTANILLA?
20 A. OH, NO. IT'S JUST PART OF MY DIFFERENT
21 UNIFORMS.
22 Q. WHEN DID YOU CEASE BECOMING A SHELLTOWN
23 38TH STREET GANG MEMBER?
24 A. I WOULD SAY AROUND '05,
..
'06 .
25 Q. WOULD THAT BE AROUND THE SAME TIME YOU GOT A
26 "HOOD RAISED" TATTOO ON YOUR FOREARM?
27 A. NO. I HAVE A "HOOD RAISED" TATTOO, YES, BUT --
28 \\
1828
("" 1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 239 WAS MARKED

3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. DO YOU THINK IF I SHOWED YOU A LARGER
5 PHOTOGRAPH, PEOPLE'S 239, YOU'D BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE IT?
6 A. WELL, THAT'S MY TATTOO.
7 Q. THIS IS YOUR TATTOO?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. SO YOU CAN SEE IT JUST FINE FROM THIS DISTANCE?
10 A. WELL, IT'S ONLY OBVIOUS, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M
11 SAYING?
12 Q. WHY DOES YOUR TATTOO HAVE A SHELL ON IT,
13 MR. QUINTANILLA?
14 A. I GUESS YOU COULD SAY THE OCEAN, SOMETHING ABOUT
15 SEASHELLS. YOU KNOW, I LIKE TO BODY SURF A LOT AND GO TO
16 THE BEACH A LOT.
17 Q. WHY DOES YOUR TATTOO'HAVE THE NUMBER "38" ON IT
18 AS WELL?
19 A. I USED TO BE FROM THAT GANG.
20 Q. YOU GOT THIS TATTOO IN 2005, CORRECT?
21 A. 2004 OR 2005, ONE OF THEM, SOMETIME AROUND
22 THERE.
23 Q. THE SAME TIME YOU STOPPED BEING A GANG MEMBER?
24 A. I STOPPED A FEW MONTHS SHORTLY AFTER I GOT THE
25 TATTOO. IT'S NOT NECESSARILY STOPPING, BUT GROWING UP,
26 YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? GETTING A JOB, DOING WHAT YOU
27 GOT TO DO IN LIFE BESIDES BEING A GANG MEMBER, YOU KNOW.
28 Q. WHAT ABOUT GOING TO ..PRISON?
1829
1 A. I WENT TO PRISON FOR NOT SHOWING UP TO SEE MY

2 PROBATION OFFICER.
3 Q. WELL, WHY WERE YOU ON PROBATION?
4 A. SMOKING MARIJUANA.
5 Q. WAS IT SOMETHING ELSE?
6 A. OH, THE CASE THAT GOT ME TO PROBATION?
7 Q. CORRECT.
8 A. IT WAS I GOT INTO A FIGHT WITH SOME PEOPLE AT
9 A GAS STATION.
10 Q. WHAT DID YOU END UP GETTING CONVICTED OF?
11 A. I'M NOT SURE.
12 Q. ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON?
13 A. INTENT TO COMMIT GREAT BODILY INJURY, SOMETHING
14 LIKE THAT. I NEVER ASSAULTED THE PERSON. IT'S JUST THAT
15 ME BEING NEW TO THE PROBATION SYSTEM, I JUST -- YOU KNOW,
16 THEY TOLD ME, "IF YOU LOSE THIS CASE, YOU'RE LIABLE TO GET
17 MORE TIME, SO IF I WERE YOU, I'D JUST TAKE THE DEAL," SO
18 WHAT I DID IS I TOOK THE DEAL, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING?
19 Q. WHEN DID THIS ASSAULT TAKE PLACE?
20 A. WHERE?
21 Q. WHEN I
22 A. I'M NOT TOO FAMILIAR WITH DATES.

23 Q. WAS IT AFTER 2005?
24 A. I WAS RELEASED IN 2004, SO I BELIEVE IT WAS TWO
25 WEEKS AFTER I GOT RELEASED.
26 Q. SO AFTER YOU STOPPED BEING A GANG MEMBER?
27 A. 2004. DID YOU HEAR ME SAY THAT?
28 Q. YOU WENT TO PRISON THEN IN 2009 -- SORRY -- 2008
1830
1 FOR THAT CASE?

2 A. NO. I WENT TO PRISON IN 2007, I THINK.
3 Q. THEN YOU WENT BACK TO PRISON IN 2008, CORRECT?
4 A. NO.
5 Q. SO HOW LONG WAS YOUR PRISON STAY?
6 A. ABOUT 15 MONTHS, SO FROM AUGUST, SEPTEMBER OF
7 '07 TO NOVEMBER 26th OF '08.
8 Q. FOR THIS --
9 A. MY PAROLE OFFICER, HE'S OUTSIDE. HE'LL BE ABLE
10 TO TELL YOU MORE ABOUT THAT.
11 Q. I'M SURE HE WILL, BUT I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT
12 YOU KNOW ABOUT IT, MR. QUINTANILLA.
13 A. WHAT I KNOW ABOUT WHAT?
r 14 Q. WHERE THIS CRIME TOOK PLACE.
15 A. I WAS IN PRISON.
16 Q. THE ONE YOU WENT TO PRISON FOR?
17 A. OH, I KNOW WHERE THAT WAS AT.
18 Q. WHERE?
19 A. I WAS AT A GAS STATION.
20 Q. WHERE?
21 A. 34th OR 35th IN NATIONAL.
22 Q. SO RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF SHELLTOWN?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. NO? RIGHT OUTSIDE SHELLTOWN?
25 A. I BELIEVE THAT'S, LIKE, THE BORDER BETWEEN MY
26 NEIGHBORHOOD AND SOMEBODY ELSE'S NEIGHBORHOOD.
27 Q. 34th AND NATIONAL IS RIGHT NEXT TO
28 INTERSTATE 15 (INDICATING), IS IT NOT?
1831
1 A. I CAN'T SEE THAT FAR, MAN.

2 Q. HOW ABOUT YOUR MEMORY? BECAUSE YOU LIVED IN
3 SHELLTOWN.
4 A. LIKE I SAID -- I JUST TOLD YOU WHERE IT TOOK
5 PLACE.
6 Q. IT'S WITHIN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, CORRECT?
7 A. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ME BEING UP HERE?
8 THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS, SIR, IS THAT IN YOUR
9 NEIGHBORHOOD?
10 THE WITNESS: HONESTLY, I DON'T KNOW THE RADIUS OF MY
11 EX-NEIGHBORHOOD. I DON'T LIVE THERE NO MORE.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THE NEIGHBORHOOD YOU USED TO
14 CLAIM?
15 A. I HAVEN'T WALKED THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD, IF
16 THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE ASKING ME, OR WHAT THE RADIUS OF THE
17 NEIGHBORHOOD IS.
18 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT YOU
19 TATTOOED ON YOUR BODY?
20 A. I KNOW WHERE I'M FROM. I KNOW WHERE I USED TO
21 HANG OUT AT.
22 Q. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THAT 34th STREET'S RIGHT
23 THERE BY THE 15 AND NATIONAL?
24 A. 35th I THINK YOU CATCH THE 15 ON --
25 Q. 35th IS EAST OF THE 15.
26 A. -- ON OCEAN VIEW, BUT THE RADIUS EXACTLY -- I
27 CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT THE RADIUS IS BECAUSE I'M NOT AN
28 EXPERT AT THAT.
1832
1 Q. HOW ABOUT IN 2008, WERE YOU STILL A MEMBER OF

2 SHELLTOWN?
3 A. LIKE I SAID, I STOPPED HANGING AROUND IN 2005,
4 2006, SO ME BEING A MEMBER --
5 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 238. YOU HAVE A
6 MYSPACE PAGE, DON'T YOU?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. NO, YOU DON'T?
9 A. I DON'T HAVE A MYSPA~E PAGE LIKE THIS WITH
10 PICTURES OF -- WHY DOES THIS SAY, "REST IN PEACE, LITTLE
11 CROOKS," IF THERE'S NOBODY NAMED LITTLE CROOKS?
12 Q. SO YOU CAN MAKE THAT OUT, MR. QUINTANILLA.
13 A. OF COURSE. IT'S A PICTURE OF MY BROTHER.
14 Q. BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE OUT A PICTURE OF YOURSELF?
15 A. CAN YOU PUT THAT IN FRONT OF ME LIKE THAT, A
16 CLEAR PICTURE?
17 Q. IT IS IN FRONT OF YOU RIGHT NOW.
18 THE COURT: HE'S REFERRING TO EXHIBIT 231 WHEN HE
19 ASKED, "CAN YOU PUT THAT IN FRONT OF ME."
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
..
21 Q. HERE'S PEOPLE'S 231 AS WELL.
22 THE WITNESS: YOUR HONOR, IF YOU COULD TELL ME IF
23 THIS PICTURE LOOKS BLURRIER THAN THIS ONE.
24 THE COURT: SIR, THE QUESTION IS, CAN YOU SEE
25 YOURSELF --
26 THE WITNESS: HONESTLY, I CAN'T. I CAN'T.
27 THE COURT: OKAY.
28 \\
1833
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. YOU CAN SEE YOUR BROTHER EDWIN IN THAT PICTURE?
3 A. IT'S A CLEAR PICTURE, AND I KNOW THIS IS A
4 PICTURE OF MY BROTHER BECAUSE I WOULD RECOGNIZE MY BROTHER
5 WHETHER MY VISION IS BLURRY OR NOT.
6 Q. SO HIS HEAD IS SOMEHOW MUCH, MUCH LARGER THAN
7 YOUR HEAD IN THIS PICTURE, IN 231?
8 THE BAILIFF: FOLKS, STAY OUT OF THIS, OKAY?
9 THE WITNESS: YOU GOT YOUR ANSWER.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. BUT YOU CAN'T RECOGNIZE YOURSELF?
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
13 THE COURT: JUST SET IT ON THE STAND RIGHT IN THE
14 FRONT OF YOU, SIR. THAT'S FINE.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
18 Q. WELL, SINCE YOU CAN'T SEEM TO MAKE OUT THE
19 LANGUAGE UNDERNEATH IT, ARE YOU SAYING YOU DIDN'T WRITE
20 "LET ME LIGHT THIS BLUNT. LET ME CRACK THIS BREW. LET ME
21 POUR SOME OUT IN LIVING MEMORY OF YOU. REST IN PEACE,
22 MY G. LITTLE CROOKS, ST 38 O.V.P. "?
23 A. NO. I TOTALLY DIDN'T CONDONE MY LITTLE BROTHER
24 BEING INTO GANGS BECAUSE -- THAT'S NOT ONLY MY FIRST
25 LITTLE BROTHER THAT I LOST, I ALSO LOST ANOTHER BROTHER TO
26 GANGS, SO I TOTALLY DIDN'T LET THEM TRY TO FOLLOW IN MY
27 FOOTSTEPS OR IN MY BROTHER'S.
28 Q. NOW, WE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ HERE
1834
1 IN COURT TODAY IS ONE OF YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS, CORRECT?

2 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ IS A FRIEND OF MINE.
3 Q. IF THIS ISN'T YOUR WEBSITE, WHY WOULD
4 MR. DOMINGUEZ BE MAKING POSTS ON YOUR WEBSITE REFERRING TO
5 YOUR DEAD LITTLE BROTHER?
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. FOUNDATION, PERSONAL
7 KNOWLEDGE.
8 THE COURT: HE'S ASKING IF HE DOES HAVE ANY.
9 OVERRULED.
10 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S NOT MY PAGE, YOUR
11 HONOR.
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. SO MR. DOMINGUEZ IS JUST POSTING THAT HE'S
15 O.V.P. UNTIL HE DIES AND "FUCK HATERS" ON SOMEONE ELSE'S
16 PAGE WITH YOUR BROTHER'S MEMORIAL ON IT?
18 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHAT.
19 THE COURT: IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. SUSTAINED.
21 THE WITNESS: IF HE HAS A PAGE OR IF HE DOESN'T, I
22 DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT NOSEY LIKE THAT. I KEEP TO MYSELF.
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. WHAT KIND OF PAROLE ARE YOU ON?
25 A. MY PAROLE OFFICER WOULD MORE LIKELY BE ABLE TO
26 TELL YOU, BUT IT'S NOT A BAD ONE. I'VE BEEN DOING GOOD.
27 I'M SIX MONTHS FROM GETTING OFF PAROLE, SO THAT SHOULD
28 TELL YOU SOMETHING.
1835
1 Q. ARE YOU SAYING YOU DON'T KNOW THE CONDITIONS OF

2 YOUR PAROLE?
3 A. MY CONDITIONS OF MY PAROLE IS NOT TO HANG AROUND
4 WITH ANY GANG MEMBERS .
5 Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER, MR. QUINTANILLA?
6 WHY WOULD THAT BE A CONDITION?
7 A. IT'S A CONDITION OF PAROLE.
8 Q. NOT EVERYBODY GETS GANG CONDITIONS, THOUGH .
9 A. THAT'S ONE THAT I GOT.

'
10 Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMB ER, CORRECT,
11 MR . QUINTANILLA?
12 A. THOSE ARE THE PAROLE CONDITIONS I GOT, SIR.
13 TAKE THAT UP WITH THE BOARD IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE WITH
14 THAT, YOU KNOW .
15 Q. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU GRAFFITI'D IN
16 OCEAN VIEW PARK?
17 A. THE LAST TIME I WAS IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, IT WAS
18 TO GO SEE MY BROTHER WHICH IS BURIED IN GREENWOOD, SO I
19 DIDN'T --
20 Q. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU ACTUALLY WENT INTO

21 THE PARK?
22 A. I DON ' T KNOW .
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI : OBJECTION . VAGUE AS TO WHAT PARK .

24 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE, PLEASE .
25 BY MR . TROCHA:
26 Q. WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU WENT TO OCEAN VIEW
27 PARK?
28 A. I HAVEN ' T BEEN IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD TO THE
1836
1 ACTUAL PARK. I'VE BEEN TO THE,GREENWOOD CEMETERY, WHICH

2 IS THE ONLY PLACE I GO TO WHENEVER I GO TO MY OLD
3 NEIGHBORHOOD.
4 Q. YOU DON'T HANG OUT WITH YOUR FORMER FRIENDS IN
5 SHELLTOWN?
6 A. NO. ALL MY FORMER FRIENDS ARE ALL IN JAIL.
7 SORRY TO SAY THAT, MAN.
8 Q. SO BEING NOT A GANG MEMBER ANYMORE, DO YOU HAVE
9 ANY REASON TO GO DOWN AND HANG AROUND IN SHELLTOWN?
10 A. I HAVE NO FRIENDS.
11 Q. YOU DON'T HANG OUT WITH THE YOUNGSTERS IN
12 SHELLTOWN?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. WHY NOT?
15 A. BECAUSE LIFE AFTER A GANG -- THERE'S NO REASON
16 WHY YOU SHOULD GO BACK UNLESS YOU'RE LOOKING FOR TROUBLE,
17 RIGHT?
18 Q. SO YOU WON'T BE HANGING AROUND, SAY, ON
19 39th AND OCEAN VIEW DRINKING BEER WITH KNOWN SHELLTOWN
20 GANG MEMBERS?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. THAT WOULDN'T BE SOMETHING A PERSON WHO'S AWAY
23 FROM THE LIFE DOES ANYMORE?
24 A. IF YOU HAVE FAMILY, tLOSE FRIENDS, YOU MIGHT BE
25 INVITED OVER TO A BARBECUE, YOU KNOW, BUT THERE'S KIDS
26 AROUND. THERE'S NO GANG MEMBERS AROUND.
27 Q. WOULD YOU GO, MR. QUINTANILLA, TO A PERSON'S
28 HOUSE WHERE THERE WERE TEENAGERS DRINKING BEER WHO ARE
1837
1 MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN 38?

2 A. IT'S AGAINST MY PAROLE CONDITIONS, SO I CAN'T DO
3 THAT.
4 Q. WELL, LET'S SAY YOU'RE NOT ON PAROLE.
5 A. I WOULDN'T DO IT. NOW
.. THAT I'M OUT OF THE GANG,
6 I WOULDN'T.
7 Q. IF A PERSON WHO DOES THAT, WOULD THEY BE A
8 MEMBER OF THE GANG STILL?
10 Q. NO?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO STILL GET TATTOOS ABOUT
13 THE GANG?
14 A. I DON'T KNOW.
15 Q. YOU HAVE GANG TATTOOS, RIGHT?
16 A. THEY'RE ALL OLD TATTOOS .
..
17 Q. HAVE YOU GOTTEN ANY RECENT GANG TATTOOS?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A MEMBER OF THE GANG THOUGH,
20 RIGHT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. YOU DON'T GET OLD 38TH STREET OR SHELL TATTOOS
23 JUST FOR OLD TIME'S SAKE?
24 A. LIKE I SAID, IF IT'S ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE
25 OCEAN, I'LL GET IT, YOU KNOW.
26 Q. WHAT SPECIFICALLY DO YOU LIKE ABOUT THE OCEAN,
27 MR. QUINTANILLA?
28 A. MERMAIDS, STUFF LIKE . THAT, WHAT WOULD LOOK GOOD
1838
1 ON A TATTOO, YOU KNOW.

2 Q. WHERE DO YOU HAVE A MERMAID TATTOO?
3 A. NO, I'M SAYING THAT'S -- IF YOU'RE ASKING ME
4 WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE OCEAN -- YOU KNOW, I DRAW TOO, YOU
5 KNOW.
6 Q. THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE TATTOOED ON YOU ABOUT
7 THE OCEAN WAS A SHELL, CORRECT?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. NO?
10 A. I HAVE ALGAE.
11 Q. ALGAE?
12 A. YEAH. STARFISH.
13 Q. WHERE?
14 A. ON MY ARM.
16 THE LADIES IN THE BACK OF THE COURTROOM ARE
17 GOING TO BE REMOVED FROM THE COURTROOM IF I SEE ANY MORE
18 FACIAL EXPRESSIONS.
19 NO, THAT'S YOU, MA'AM, SECOND FROM THE -- RIGHT
20 NEXT TO THE GENTLEMAN IN THE BLUE SHIRT. DO YOU
21 UNDERSTAND? NO FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, NO COMMENTS ON THE
22 EVIDENCE FROM ANYBODY. DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR? THANK
23 YOU.
24 CONTINUE.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. WHERE?
27 A. ON MY ARM.
28 Q. CAN YOU SHOW US.
1839
1 A. (INDICATING).
2 Q. WHERE IS THE ALGAE?
3 THE COURT: INDICATING RIGHT FOREARM.
4 THE WITNESS: SEAWEED.
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. THERE'S NO MERMAIDS, RIGHT?
7 A. NO. I DIDN'T SAY I HAD A MERMAID ON MY ARM.
8 Q. THERE'S NO WAVES, IS THERE? THE OCEAN HAS
9 WAVES, RIGHT, MR. DOMINGUEZ? EXCUSE ME. MR. QUINTANILLA.
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. YOU LIKE TO BODY SURF YOU SAID, CORRECT,
14 MR. QUINTANILLA?
15 A. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME PUTTING
16 EVERYTHING I LIKE TATTOOED ON ME, YOU KNOW. THEY DO HURT;
17 TATTOOS DO HURT. YOU KNOW THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE
18 ANY. DO YOU HAVE ANY?
19 Q. WELL, WHAT ABOUT YOU, MR. QUINTANILLA? YOU SAID
20 YOU LIKE TO BODY SURF AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE A SEASHELL
21 TATTOOED ON YOUR ARM, CORRECT?
22 A. (NO AUDIBLE ANSWER.)
23 Q. IS THAT CORRECT?
24 A. I DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT.
25 Q. YOU DIDN'T?
26 A. I SAID THAT I LIKE TO BODY SURF. I DIDN'T TELL
27 YOU BECAUSE I LIKE TO BODY SURF I HAVE SHELL TATTOOS ON
28 ME. DID I TELL YOU THAT?
1840
1 Q. IF WE HEARD IT --
2 A. DID I TELL YOU THAT?
3 THE COURT: WHAT'S THE NEXT QUESTION, PLEASE?
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. WHERE DO YOU BODY SURF?
..
6 A. THE BEACH.
7 Q. WHICH ONE?
8 A. LA JOLLA SHORES, KIND OF BY LA JOLLA.
9 Q. WHERE IN LA JOLLA SHORES?
10 A. I CAN'T -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE SPECIFICALLY.
11 IT'S LA JOLLA BOULEVARD.
12 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU GET "LA JOLLA BOULEVARD" TATTOOED
13 SOMEWHERE ON YOUR BODY?
16 THE WITNESS: WE'RE NOT HERE TO BE FUNNY, MAN.
17 MR. TROCHA: NO, WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR 38TH
18 STREET GANG MEMBERSHIP.
21 MR. QUINTANILLA, HERE'S THE DEAL: HE ASKS THE
22 QUESTIONS; YOU ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. YOU DON'T ASK HIM;
23 YOU DON'T MAKE COMMENTARY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
24 THE WITNESS: WHAT DO YOU HAVE ME HERE FOR? JUST TO
25 ANSWER QUESTIONS?
26 THE COURT: I HAVE YOU HERE TO ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS
27 (INDICATING) AND HIS QUESTIONS (INDICATING).
28 THE WITNESS: ALL RIGHT ... I ANSWERED THEM, RIGHT?
1841
1 THE COURT: WELL, LISTEN TO THE QUESTION, ANSWER IT.

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. SO JUST TO CLEAR THINGS UP, WHY DO YOU HAVE A
4 SHELL TATTOOED ON YOUR ARM?
5 A. BECAUSE I LIKE THE BEACH.
6 Q. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN
7 ALGAE FROM THE BEACH ON YOUR ARM OR ANYWHERE ELSE ON YOUR
8 BODY?
11 THE WITNESS: LIKE I SAID, I LIKE THE BEACH. THAT'S
12 WHY I GOT STUFF, YOU KNOW.
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. WHAT DOES "SHELLY SHELLS" MEAN?
15 A. "SHELLY SHELLS"?
16 Q. DOES IT HAVE ANY MEANING TO YOU?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. WELL, "HOOD RAISED PRESENTS LOCKDOWN VOLUME
19 1"
20 A. COME AGAIN?
21 Q. "HOOD RAISED PRESENTS LOCKDOWN VOLUME 1." DOES
22 THAT HAVE ANY RELEVANCE TO YOU?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. YOU HAVE "HOOD RAISED" TATTOOED ON YOUR ARM,
25 CORRECT?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. THERE'S A PICTURE HERE WITH YOU AND "HOOD
28 RAISED" ON IT, CORRECT?
1842
\
1 THE WITNESS: I CAN'T SEE~THAT FAR, SIR. HE KNOWS
2 THAT ALREADY.
3 THE COURT: WHAT EXHIBIT?
4 MR. TROCHA: THIS IS AGAIN PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 238.
6 THE WITNESS: CAN I SEE THAT?
8 THE WITNESS: YEAH, I DIDN'T MAKE THIS, SIR.
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. SO IT'S JUST A COINCIDENCE THAT YOUR FACE AND
11 11
HOOD RAISED 11 APPEAR ON A SITE CALLED 11
HOOD RAISED
12 PRESENTS 11 ?
15 DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHY YOUR FACE
16 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHO MADE THAT, SIR.
17 THE COURT: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S --
18 THE WITNESS: YOU KNOW, THERE'S PEOPLE THAT ALWAYS
19 MAKE FAKE PROFILES AND STUFF LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. WHAT DO YOU HAVE TATTOOED ACROSS YOUR CHEST?
11
22 A. THE WORD SHELL."
23 Q. WHY DO YOU HAVE THAT ON YOUR CHEST?
24 A. BECAUSE I USED TO BE~ FROM SHELLTOWN.
25 Q. HOW WOULD SOMEBODY GET A PICTURE OF YOU WITHOUT
26 YOUR SHIRT ON, MR. QUINTANILLA?
27 A. BY TAKING IT.
28 Q. WHEN?
1843
1 A. I DON'T KNOW, MAN.

2 Q. WHERE?
3 A. ME WITH MY SHIRT OFF? YOU CAN TAKE A PICTURE OF
4 ME AT THE BEACH IF YOU WANT TO SEE ME WITH MY SHIRT OFF.
5 Q. HOW ABOUT ONE INDOORS' WHILE YOU HAVE HEADPHONES
6 ON YOUR HEAD?
7 A. I BELIEVE THAT WAS WHEN I FIRST GOT OUT.
8 Q. GOT OUT OF PRISON?
9 A. NO, OUT OF "Y," CALIFORNIA YOUTH AUTHORITY, SIR.
10 Q. HOW WOULD SOMEBODY THEN GET A PICTURE OF YOU
11 INDOORS WITH HEADPHONES ON AND YOUR SHIRT OFF?
12 A. BY TAKING IT.
13 Q. WOULDN'T THEY HAVE TO BE IN YOUR HOUSE?
15 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WE'RE GETTING FAR AFIELD
16 HERE.
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO ANY FURTHER
18 QUESTIONS. THIS WITNESS HAS BEEN FULLY EXAMINED. I DON'T
19 SEE THE RELEVANCE OF ANYTHING IN THE PAST FIVE MINUTES.
20 THE COURT: I'LL RULE ON THE OBJECTIONS AS THE
21 QUESTIONS ARE ASKED.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. ARE YOU ALSO SAYING THAT YOU AND MR. DOMINGUEZ
24 NEVER TALKED ABOUT EDWIN'S DEATH WHILE YOU WERE IN PRISON?
25 A. I MAY HAVE NO COMMUNICATION WITH ANYBODY. I WAS
26 AT WORK. MY SISTER CALLED THE FACILITY. THEY PULLED ME
27 OUT OF WORK TO TELL ME THAT, YOU KNOW.
28 BESIDES THAT, I HAD NO SUPPORT OR NOTHING LIKE
1844
1 THAT, SO WHATEVER STUFF I WAS GETTING WAS FROM PAYROLL OFF

2 OF THE INSTITUTION.
3 Q. SO YOUR FRIEND NEVER CONTACTED YOU AT ALL IN
4 THOSE 15 MONTHS IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
5 A. I'M SORRY TO SAY, YOU KNOW, SOME FRIENDS JUST
6 DON'T KEEP IN CONTACT ONCE YOU GO TO JAIL.
10 THE COURT: MR. QUINTANILLA, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
11 COURT, SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
12 THE WITNESS: YOU'RE WELCOME.
13 THE COURT: PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY
14 WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN INVESTIGATORS UNTIL THE CASE IS
15 OVER, OKAY?
16 THE WITNESS: YOU GUYS DON'T NEED ME NO MORE, DO YOU?
17 THE COURT: MAY HE BE EXCUSED?
19 MR. TROCHA: YES.
20 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. NO, THEY DON'T. THANK YOU.
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. DEFENSE
24 CALLS ANTHONY EWING.
25 THE COURT: DID WE HAVE THE INTERPRETER?
26 THE BAILIFF: OF COURSE, BUT I BELIEVE SHE LEFT THE
27 COURTROOM, YOUR HONOR.
1845
1 ANTHONY J: EWING,
4
7 WITNESS STAND.
9 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, JUDGE.
10 THE COURT: UP HERE IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
11 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.
'
14 THE WITNESS: ANTHONY JOSEPH EWING. THE LAST NAME IS
15 SPELLED E-W-I-N-G.
18
21 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. EWING.
23 Q. WHO DO YOU FOR WORK?
24 A. PAROLE AGENT FOR THE ' STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
25 Q. WHAT DOES A PAROLE AGENT DO?
26 A. SUPERVISE CONVICTED FELONS AFTER THEY'RE
27 RELEASED INTO THE COMMUNITY FROM STATE PRISON.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?
1846
1 A. YES, I DO.
2 Q. 1
WH0 S HE?
3 A. ONE OF MY PAROLEES.
4 Q. DO YOU SUPERVISE HIM?
5 A. YES, I DO, SIR.
6 Q. WHEN WAS HE INCARCERATED?
7 A. IF YOU DON 1 T MIND, I 1 D LIKE TO
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I CAN APPROACH THE WITNESS WITH
10 DEFENSE Q.
11 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT Q WAS MARKED
14 Q. I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT YOU RE REFERRING TO.
1
15 THE COURT: DEFENSE Q?

16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE SECOND PAGE .
..
17 THE COURT: DESCRIBE IT FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE,
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PAGE 1 IS A LETTER FROM
20 ANTHONY EWING TO "TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN," AND PAGE 2 IS A
21 DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS RECORDS FOR JONATHAN
22 QUINTANILLA.
25 Q. WHAT IS THAT DOCUMENT IN YOUR WORDS, MR. EWING?
26 A. THIS IS -- IT 1 S AN OBIS DOCUMENT, "OFFENDER
27 BASED INFORMATION SYSTEM," AND IT DESCRIBES THE TIMES AND
28 DATES THAT INMATES ARE PLACED IN CUSTODY.
1847
1 Q. WHEN WAS MR. QUINTANILLA PLACED IN CUSTODY?

2 A. OCTOBER 22nd, 2007.
3 Q. AND WHEN WAS HE RELEASED?
4 A. HE WAS PAROLED ON NOVEMBER 25th, 2008.
5 Q. SO WHERE WOULD HE HAVE BEEN ON SEPTEMBER 13th,
6 2008?
7 A. IN STATE PRISON.
8 Q. THANK YOU. MR. QUINTANILLA HAS GANG CONDITIONS
9 ON HIS PAROLE?
11 Q. WHO GETS GANG CONDITIONS ON THEIR PAROLE?
12 A. ANYONE THAT COMES INTO THE SYSTEM THAT'S
13 DOCUMENTED AS A GANG MEMBER.
14 Q. IS THAT ANYBODY WHO'S EVER BEEN IN A GANG?
15 A. YES, SIR.
18 CROSS?
19
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. MR. EWING, THEY HAVE TO BE DOCUMENTED INTO THE
23 SYSTEM, CORRECT?
25 Q. SO IF THEY'VE BEEN FREE OF GANG LIFE FOR FIVE
26 YEARS, THEY WOULD NO LONGER BE DOCUMENTED, RIGHT?
28 Q. SO THERE WOULD NO LONGER BE GANG CONDITIONS?
1848
1 A. THAT'S NOT TRUE.

2 Q. SO A PERSON COULD GET GANG CONDITIONS HOW IF
3 THEY'RE UNDOCUMENTED?
4 A. WHEN THEY FIRST -- WHEN THEY'RE INITIALLY
5 INCARCERATED THEY GO THROUGH A CLASSIFICATION PROCESS.
6 DURING THAT PROCESS THE INVESTIGATION SQUAD ASKS THEM WHO
7 THEY ASSOCIATE WITH OR ARE THEY DOCUMENTED AS A GANG
8 MEMBER, AND AT THAT TIME THEY ARE -- WELL, THEY'RE
9 REQUIRED OR THEY GIVE THAT INFORMATION UP.
10 Q. AND THE REASON THEY GIVE THAT INFORMATION UP IS
11 SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE WITH RIVAL GANG MEMBERS WHO MAY
12 KILL THEM, CORRECT?
14 Q. SO THAT WOULD BE A PRETTY GOOD TIME TO DETERMINE
15 WHETHER OR NOT SOMEBODY CONSIDERS THEMSELVES TO BE AN
16 ACTIVE GANG MEMBER?
17 A. SOMETIMES THEY'LL SAY THEY'RE ACTIVE. SOMETIMES
18 THEY'LL CLAIM TO BE DROPOUTS. IF THEY'RE DROPPED OUT,
19 THEN THEY'LL BE DEBRIEFED.
20 Q. A DROPOUT MEANS -- IT'S MOSTLY PRISON GANGS,
21 CORRECT?
23 Q. LIKE MEXICAN MAFIA OR ARYAN BROTHERHOOD?
24 A. CORRECT.
25 Q. AND THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE DROPOUTS ARE BASICALLY
26 SITTING TARGETS IF THEY'RE IN THE MAINLINE POPULATION?
28 Q. IT'S NOT THE SAME FOR A STREET GANG MEMBER
1849
1 COMING IN TO GET ORIENTATION IN PRISON, CORRECT?

2 A. ACTUALLY, THEY CAN CLAIM TO BE NOT ACTIVE AND
3 REQUEST THAT THEY BE NOT CELLED WITH SOMEBODY FROM THE
4 SAME GANG SET OR ANOTHER GANG SET.
5 Q. THAT WOULD BE WHEN THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS A
6 GANG MEMBER OR NOT?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. NOW, WHAT EXACTLY WAS MR. QUINTANILLA IN PRISON
9 FOR?
10 A. IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, IT WAS ASSAULT.
11 Q. FELONY?
12 A. YES, SIR.
13 Q. ASSAULT WITH FORCE LIKELY TO CAUSE GREAT BODILY
14 INJURY?
16 Q. HE DID 15 MONTHS ON THAT?
17 A. YES, HE DID.
18 Q. THAT'S 15 MONTHS OF ACTUAL TIME, CORRECT?
20 Q. SO IT SOUNDS MORE LIKE A TWO-YEAR SENTENCE.
21 A. YES, SIR.
25 THE COURT: MAY MR. EWING BE EXCUSED?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I BELIEVE HE CAN.
27 MR. TROCHA: YES.
28 THE COURT: MR. EWING, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT,
1850
1 SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU.

2 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. YOU, TOO.
5 CALLS CARLOS RIOS.
6
7 CARLOS RIOS,
10
13 WITNESS STAND.
14 THE COURT: UP HERE IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR. GOOD
15 MORNING TO YOU.
19 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS CARLOS RIOS, R-I-0-S.
24
27 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. RIOS.
28 A. GOOD MORNING.
1851
1 Q. MR. RIOS, WHERE DO YOU WORK?

2 A. CURRENTLY FOR THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO PARK AND
3 RECREATION DEPARTMENT, AT -- I'M THE AREA MANAGER FOR THE
4 MARTIN LUTHER KING/ENCANANTO AREA IN SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO.
5 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED FOR THE CITY?
6 A. 20 YEARS.
7 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE TIME PERIOD OF AROUND 2008,
8 SEPTEMBER?
9 A. SOMEWHAT, YES.
10 Q. WHERE WERE YOU WORKING THEN?
11 A. I WAS AT MOUNTAIN VIEW COMMUNITY CENTER.
12 Q. WHERE IS MOUNTAIN VIEW COMMUNITY CENTER? WHAT
'
13 AREA OF TOWN?
14 A. SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO, SHELLTOWN AREA,
15 40th STREET AND OCEAN VIEW.
16 Q. IS THERE A PARK RIGHT NEAR THERE?
17 A. YES, IT'S MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK.
18 Q. MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK?
19 A. OR THE STREET NAME IS OCEAN VIEW PARK.
20 Q. THEY ALSO CALL IT OCEAN VIEW PARK?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. DO YOU SEE WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PROSECUTION 1,
23 THIS EXHIBIT I'VE JUST PUT ON THE EASEL?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THE TOP PICTURE?
26 A. PRETTY MUCH THE PARK, THE OLD RECREATION CENTER,
27 TENNIS COURTS, OUTDOOR BASKETBALL COURTS, THE GAZEBO AND
28 THEN THE NORTH SIDE OF THE PARK WHERE THE COMFORT STATION
1852
1 IS AT.
2 Q. "COMFORT STATION" BEING THE BATHROOMS RIGHT HERE
3 (INDICATING)?
4 A. THE NORTH SIDE OUTDOOR RESTROOMS, YES.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS
6 IDENTIFYING THE BATHROOMS AS THE LITTLE HUT JUST BELOW THE
7 PAVED ALLEY ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE PARK.
8 THE COURT: IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
9 THE WITNESS: YES.
10 THE COURT: THANK YOU. SO REFLECT.
12 Q. MR. RIOS, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE OLD RECREATION
13 CENTER.
14 A. CORRECT.
15 Q. WHERE IS THAT?
16 A. THAT IS LOCATED ON 40th STREET.
17 Q. IS IT THIS BUILDING TO THE RIGHT OF THE TENNIS
18 COURTS?
19 A. CORRECT.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, THAT IS ON EXHIBIT
21 PEOPLE'S 1 TO THE RIGHT OF THE TENNIS COURTS AND JUST
22 ABOVE 40th STREET.
25 Q. THE NEW REC CENTER, THAT'S WHERE YOU WORK,
26 RIGHT?
27 A. WELL, I USED TO WORK AT THE OLD REC CENTER.
28 WHEN THE NEW FACILITY WAS BUILT, WE MOVED OVER TO THE NEW
1853
1 FACILITY, BUT THE PARK BASICALLY BELONGED TO ME AT THE

2 TIME AS THE CENTER DIRECTOR.
3 Q. WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THEM?
4 A. AT THE TIME OR CURRENTLY?
5 Q. AT THE TIME.
6 A. AT THE TIME I WAS A CENTER DIRECTOR FOR
7 MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK, BASICALLY ALL THE PROGRAMMING,
8 BUDGETING THAT WENT ON AT THAT PARTICULAR PARK, ALL THE
'
9 PERMIT ISSUING FOR THAT PARK AS WELL AS A COUPLE OF
10 NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS AROUND THE AREA.
11 Q. AND YOU'RE EMPLOYED BY THE GOVERNMENT, RIGHT?
12 A. BY THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO, YES.
13 Q. ON PROSECUTION 1, CAN YOU SEE THE REC CENTER
14 WHERE YOU USED TO WORK DEPICTED?
15 A. VAGUELY. IT'S PRETTY MUCH AT THE VERY TOP OF
16 THE PICTURE. YOU CAN SEE THE BIG GUM TREE, BASICALLY,
17 THAT'S RIGHT THERE. YOU CAN SEE THE ENTRANCEWAY OF THE
18 PARKING LOT AND THEN THE BACK PARKING LOT OF THE NEW
19 FACILITY. I CAN VISUALLY SEE PART OF THE MEETING ROOM OF
20 THE NEW FACILITY AS WELL.
21 Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS AREA RIGHT HERE ON
22 THE TOP PICTURE IN THE TOP RIGHT OF THE EXHIBIT WHERE THE
23 BORDER OF THE PICTURE IS?
24 A. CORRECT.
25 Q. THIS TRIANGLE BETWEEN BOUNDARY STREET AND THE
26 BORDER?
27 A. CORRECT.
28 Q. THIS, WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE WHITE PAVED PART AT
1854
1 THE CORNER OF THE PICTURE, THAT APPEARS TO BE THE

2 ENTRANCE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHAT IS LOCATED OFF THE MAP? WHAT WOULD BE THE
5 RIGHT ON THE EXHIBIT, RIGHT -- IT WOULD BE ABOVE THE
6 EXHIBIT TAB OR MAYBE ON THE EXHIBIT TAB, RIGHT THERE
7 (INDICATING)?
8 A. THAT WOULD BE THE ENTRYWAY TO THE PARKING LOT,
9 AND THEN TO THE RIGHT OF THAT, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE
10 BUILDING FROM BOUNDARY STREET, WOULD BE THE SENIOR
11 BUILDING, AND THEN TO THE RIGHT OF THAT IS THE
12 NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE.
13 Q. THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE?
14 A. CORRECT.
15 Q. OKAY. THAT IS -- WHAT IS THE NEIGHBORHOOD
16 HOUSE, DO YOU KNOW?
17 A. THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE, FROM MY UNDERSTANDING,
18 IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROVIDES MAINLY HEADSTART
19 PROGRAMS. THEY WOULD ALSO RENT OUT THEIR FACILITY, THAT
20 PARTICULAR ONE, I'M ASSUMING FOR REVENUE PURPOSES.
21 Q. ON SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008 -- DO YOU REMEMBER
22 THAT DAY?
23 A. YES -- SOMEWHAT, YES.
24 Q. WHY DOES IT STICK OUT IN YOUR MEMORY?
25 A. BECAUSE I WAS AT A BIRTHDAY PARTY FOR MY
26 FRIEND'S DAUGHTER IN BONITA, AND I GOT CALLED BY THE ALARM
27 COMPANY, RANCHO SANTA FE, THAT WE HAD HAD A BREAK-IN AT
28 THE COMMUNITY CENTER.
1855
1 Q. THIS IS A SATURDAY NIGHT?

2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. SO WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO BASED ON GETTING THAT
4 PHONE CALL?
5 A. THE PHONE CALL THAT I RECEIVED WAS THAT POLICE
6 NEEDED ASSISTANCE IN SECURING THE FACILITY SINCE THERE HAD
7 BEEN A BREAK-IN.
8 NORMALLY WE -- WHENEVER WE GET CALLED BY THE
9 ALARM COMPANY AND POLICE REQUIRE ASSISTANCE, THEY USUALLY
10 ASK US TO IDENTIFY THE VEHICLE THAT WE DRIVE AS WE PULL UP
11 SO THAT THE POLICE KNOW THAT IT'S BASICALLY US THAT ARE
12 COMING IN.
13 THAT NIGHT I CAME UP AND NOTICED THERE WAS ONE
14 SQUAD CAR IN THE DRIVEWAY. THERE WAS A PARTY GOING ON AT
15 THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE. AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT
'
16 KIND OF PARTY. WE'RE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD
17 HOUSE.
18 I PULLED INTO THE PARKING LOT. THE FACILITY WAS
19 ALL LIT UP AS IN -- IT LOOKED LIKE AS IF IT HAD BEEN
20 OPENED -- OPENED FOR BUSINESS, THAT IS -- AND THE OFFICER
21 WAS OUTSIDE BASICALLY SAYING THAT IT WAS NOT LOCKED.
22 I OPENED UP THE DOOR AND THEY LET A K-9 DOG
23 BASICALLY RUN AROUND. WE WALKED IN AND PRETTY MUCH
24 DOUBLE-CHECKED ALL THE DOORS, WENT IN THROUGH ALL THE
25 ROOMS. EVERYTHING WAS PRETTY MUCH SECURED.
26 THE FRONT DOOR TO THE FACILITY THERE'S FOUR
27 FRONT DOORS TO THE FACILITY, BASICALLY. IT'S A SET OF TWO
28 DOUBLE DOORS. THE PANIC BARS FROM THE INSIDE WERE LOCKED,
1856
1 BUT THE MAIN DOOR HAS A SMALL LATCH -- THAT HAD NOT BEEN
2 LOCKED, SO PRETTY MUCH IF SOMEBODY WALKS IN, PULLS ON THE
3 DOOR, IT'S LOCKED. BUT SOME PEOPLE -- BY THAT TIME MOST
4 PEOPLE WOULD ALREADY KNOW TO CHECK THE LATCH AS WELL. THE
5 LATCH WAS NOT LOCKED, SO AN INDIVIDUAL WALKED IN.
6 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY WALK IN?
7 A. NO, BUT I SAW THEM ONCE WE LOOKED AT THE
8 WELL, ONCE I LOOKED AT THE SURVEILLANCE CAMERA.
9 THE OFFICER BASICALLY STUCK AROUND FOR A LITTLE
10 BIT, FIGURED THAT EVERYTHING WAS FINE AND DROVE OFF AFTER
11 A WHILE. I HAD LET THE OFFICER KNOW THAT I WAS GOING TO
12 TRY TO PRETTY MUCH FIND OUT AT WHAT POINT THE ALARM HAD
13 BEEN SET OFF.
14 SO ONCE WE LOOKED AT THE SURVEILLANCE CAMERA, IT
15 PRETTY MUCH WAS WHAT WE HAD THOUGHT: SOMEBODY CAME IN,
16 JIGGLED THE DOORS, PULLED ON THE LATCH, WALKED IN, LOOKED
17 AROUND. A FEW MINUTES LATER YOU CAN SEE THE BLINKERS ON
18 THE ALARMS GOING OFF. HE TURNED AROUND AND JUST WALKED
19 RIGHT OUTSIDE.
20 Q. OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT DID SOMEBODY -- DID
21 YOU TALK TO ANYBODY AT THE REC CENTER?
22 A. YES. A BUNCH OF THE KIDS WERE BASICALLY AT THE
23 NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE NEXT DOOR. APPARENTLY, THERE WAS A
24 QUINCEANERA, A 15-YEAR-OLD PARTY.
25 WE WALKED OUTSIDE AND A LOT OF THE KIDS WERE --
26 AND I WON'T SAY A LOT. BASICALLY THERE WAS ABOUT SIX OR
27 SEVEN KIDS AT THE TIME WERE LIKE ASKING IF THE REC CENTER
28 WAS OPEN BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO COME IN AND KIND OF HANG
1857
1 OUT.
2 I TOLD THEM NO, THE REC CENTER WAS NOT OPEN, AND
3 SO THEN THEY ASKED IF WE HAD BEEN BROKEN INTO, AND, YOU
4 KNOW, A LOT OF THE KIDS BY THIS TIME HAVE TAKEN OWNERSHIP
5 OF THE FACILITY, SO THEY'RE, LIKE, "HEY, YOU KNOW, LET US
6 KNOW WHO IT WAS. WE'LL GET THEM" KIND OF DEAL -- THING.
7 I SAID, "NO, NO WORRIES. EVERYTHING'S PRETTY
8 MUCH LOCKED UP."
9 BY THIS TIME MORE AND MORE KIDS STARTED COMING
10 UP, I WOULD SAY ANYWHERE BETWEEN 10 AND 12 KIDS. MOST OF
11 THEM WERE REGULARS AT THE REC CENTER AND AT THE PARK.
12 Q. HOW OLD ARE THESE KIDS?
13 A. ANYWHERE BETWEEN 13 AND 16, 17 YEARS OLD.
14 Q. WHAT TIME OF NIGHT DID THIS HAPPEN?
15 A. THIS WAS AFTER 8:00 P.M. I WANT TO SAY 8:30,
16 9:00 O'CLOCK OR SO. BETWEEN 8:00 AND 9:00. I KNOW THAT I
17 GOT THE PHONE CALL SHORTLY BEFORE THAT.
18 Q. WAS IT DARK OUT?
19 A. YES, BESIDES THE SECURITY LIGHTING.
20 Q. WITHOUT AMBIENT LIGHT OR UNNATURAL LIGHT, THERE
21 WAS NO NATURAL LIGHT?
22 A. NO, NO NATURAL LIGHT.
23 Q. DID YOU RECOGNIZE AN OF THESE KIDS AS HAVING
24 KNOWN THEM?
25 A. YES. MOST OF THE KIDS BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, WE
26 KNEW. THE REC LEADERS REALLY KNOW THEM MORE BY NAME. I
27 JUST KNEW A FEW OF THE KIDS BY NAME JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE
28 PRETTY MUCH REGULARS, AND WHAT I MEAN BY "REGULARS," WE
1858
1 HAD A COUPLE OF THEM THAT WERE ACTUALLY KIND OF LIKE

2 LITTLE VOLUNTEERS. THEY WOULD DO, LIKE, IN KIND VOLUNTEER
3 WORK. WE WOULD LET THEM USE THE WEIGHT ROOM IF THEY WOULD
4 KIND OF HELP US OUT WITH CLEANUP AND CHECKING RESTROOMS
'
5 AND PRETTY MUCH MAKING SURE THAT ALL THE YOUNGER KIDS WERE
6 KEPT IN LINE AS FAR AS -- YOU KNOW, SO WE WOULDN'T HAVE
7 VANDALISM IN THE FACILITY.
8 Q. AT SOME POINT DID YOU HEAR GUNSHOTS?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?
11 A. THAT HAPPENED ABOUT -- ANYWHERE BETWEEN 10 AND
12 15 MINUTES AFTER WE WERE OUTSIDE. I WAS PRETTY MUCH
13 GETTING READY TO LEAVE THE FACILITY. MY CAR WAS PARKED IN
14 THE CONCRETE CIRCLE, ON THE RED ZONE, AND THE KIDS WERE
15 JUST KIND OF HANGING OUT, AND I WAS PRETTY MUCH TELLING
16 THEM, "OKAY, YOU KNOW, WITH A l5-YEAR-OLD PARTY, YOU GUYS
17 BE SAFE. A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE TRY TO ACT THE FOOLS KIND
18 OF DEAL THING. JUST MAKE SURE YOU GUYS ARE HERE TO HAVE
19 FUN AND JUST MAKE SURE YOU GUYS GET HOME SAFE."
20 AT THAT POINT WE HEARD A SERIES OF GUNSHOTS. WE
21 WERE LOOKING AROUND AND SOMEBODY HAD POINTED OUT THAT THEY
22 CAME FROM THE NORTH END OF THE PARK, AND ABOUT TWO TO
23 THREE MINUTES LATER WE SAW A SQUAD CAR FLYING -- WELL,
24 DRIVING VERY FAST ON OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD, HEADING WEST ON
25 OCEAN VIEW.
26 Q. WEST ON OCEAN VIEW WOULD BE, ON PROSECUTION 1,
27 GOING DOWN, RIGHT?
28 A. CORRECT.
1859
1 Q. DOWN OCEAN VIEW, WHICH THAT'S THE STREET THAT

2 SPLITS THE TWO PARKS?
3 A. RIGHT. BUT WE SAW THE VEHICLE -- BECAUSE OF THE
4 WAY THE NEW FACILITY IS SITUATED, IT'S A LITTLE BIT HIGHER
5 UP THAN THE EASTERN SIDE, CLOSER TO ECC, WHICH IS THE --
6 LIKE A BRANCH OF THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT TWO BLOCKS
7 BEHIND OUR FACILITY. THAT'S WHERE WE SAW THE SQUAD CAR
8 COMING.
9 Q. OKAY.
10 A. AND THEN A FEW MINUTES LATER IT DID GO PAST
11 BOUNDARY STREET, HEADING TOWARDS THE NORTH SIDE OF THE
12 PARK.
13 SOME OF THE KIDS -- AT THAT POINT SOME KIDS
11
14 STARTED COMING UP FROM THE 15-YEAR-OLD PARTY ASKING, DID
11 11
15 YOU GUYS HEAR THAT? WHERE DID THAT -- YOU KNOW, DID YOU
16 GUYS HEAR THAT? 11
17 AND THEN I WOULD SAY ABOUT TWO MINUTES LATER WE

18 SAW A SILVER CAR, TWO-DOOR CAR, BASICALLY, COMING DOWN
19 FROM THAT DIRECTION, FROM OCEAN VIEW, AND THEN WENT ON THE
20 WRONG -- HEADED DOWN THE WRONG WAY DOWN BOUNDARY STREET
21 HEADING TOWARDS US, WHERE WE WERE AT.
22 SO AT THAT POINT I TOLD A LOT OF THE KIDS -- IN
23 THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING THERE'S A HUGE -- WE CALL IT THE
24 11
MONUMENT. 11
BASICALLY IT'S A SIGN THAT SAYS
25 11
MOUNTAIN VIEW COMMUNITY CENTER, PROPERTY OF THE CITY OF
26 SAN DIEG0 11
AND STUFF. I WOULD SAY IT'S ABOUT THAT THICK
27 (INDICATING), I DON'T KNOW, SIX INCHES THICK OR SO.
28 Q. FOR THE RECORD, YOU WERE HOLDING YOUR HANDS AT
1860
1 ABOUT -- IT APPEARED TO BE 12 INCHES TO ME.

2 A. OKAY. IT'S ABOUT THAT BIG (INDICATING)
3 BASICALLY.
4 THE COURT: LOOKS LIKE 10 TO 12 INCHES.
6 THE WITNESS: SO I TOLD A LOT OF THE KIDS THAT WERE
7 RIGHT THERE WITH ME TO GET BEHIND THE MONUMENT. WE
8 FIGURED IF SOMETHING HAD HAPPENED, IF THEY WERE INVOLVED
9 OR WHATNOT, AT LEAST WE WOULD BE BEHIND SOME SORT OF
10 PROTECTION.
11 AND THE CAR SPED ON THROUGH BOUNDARY AND THEN
12 LATER TO WHERE IT BECOMES 41 5 t'STREET.
14 Q. THIS BEING BOUNDARY (INDICATING), THIS STREET
15 THAT'S JUST TO THE
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. -- WHAT WOULD BE -- WOULD THAT BE EAST OF THE
18 PARK?
19 A. IT WAS.
20 Q. EAST OF THE SOUTH PART OF THE PARK?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. IT'S ACTUALLY THE EAST BORDER?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. IT'S A ONE-WAY GOING NORTH?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. THE CAR WAS GOING SOUTH?
27 A. CORRECT.
28 Q. HOW MANY -- AT THIS POINT, AFTER YOU HEARD THE
1861
1 GUNSHOTS, HOW MANY KIDS WERE THERE?

2 A. ANYWHERE BETWEEN 10 AND 15 JUST BECAUSE -- I WAS
3 ABOUT TO LEAVE AND MORE KIDS STARTED COMING OUT, YOU KNOW,
4 AFTER THEY HEARD THE GUNSHOTS JO SEE IF WE HAD -- IF WE
5 HAD HEARD THAT.
6 AND AT THAT POINT WE WERE -- I WAS TRYING TO
7 TELL SOME OF THE KIDS THAT THEY NEEDED TO GET BACK INTO
8 THE FACILITY, OVER TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE.
9 Q. DID THE KIDS THAT WERE THERE, GIVEN THAT THE REC
10 CENTER IS THIS AREA RIGHT HERE (INDICATING), JUST EAST OF
11 BOUNDARY ON THE SOUTH PART OF THE PARK -- WERE THE KIDS
12 COMING FROM THE QUINCEANERA?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY COMING FROM THIS DIRECTION
15 HERE (INDICATING)? I'M CIRCLING THE EAST PART OF
'
16 OCEAN VIEW THAT'S DEPICTED ON PROSECUTION 1.
17 A. NO, I DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY COMING FROM THAT SIDE.
18 Q. THANK YOU. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED ALEXIS
19 LOPEZ?
20 A. YES. HE IS ONE OF THE KIDS THAT WOULD ALWAYS
21 HANG OUT AT THE REC CENTER. HE WAS ACTUALLY ONE OF OUR
22 VOLUNTEERS.
23 Q. YOU MET HIM BEFORE?
24 A. YES. GOOD KID.
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO GO GET
26 ALEXIS LOPEZ.
1862

3 Q. MR. RIOS, DO YOU SEE THIS GENTLEMAN STANDING TO
4 MY LEFT, WEARING A BLACK SHIRT WITH WHITE STRIPES?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WHO IS HE?
7 A. ALEX. WE KNEW HIM AS ALEX.
8 Q. HIS NAME'S ALEXIS LOPEZ?
9 A. CORRECT.
10 Q. WAS HE ONE OF THE KIDS YOU SAW THAT NIGHT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHEN DID YOU SEE HIM?
13 THE COURT: MR. LOPEZ, THANK YOU. YOU MAY RESUME
14 OUTSIDE.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. SORRY.
19 A. PRETTY MUCH THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE TIME ONCE I
20 CAME OUT OF THE BUILDING, AFTER THE POLICE -- AFTER THE
21 POLICE HAD PRETTY MUCH LEFT.
22 Q. OKAY. YOU WERE VISITED BY MY INVESTIGATOR A
23 COUPLE WEEKS AGO?
24 A. YES.
25 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT V WAS MARKED
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING WITH DEFENSE V.
28 \\
1863
2 Q. MY INVESTIGATOR SHOWED YOU THIS PICTURE, RIGHT?
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED JOSUE GUTIERREZ?
5 LET ME REPHRASE. I'LL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.
6 DO YOU KNOW A LITTLE KID NAMED JOSUE?
7 A. I KNEW A KID NAMED JOSUE. WHEN I SAW THIS
8 PICTURE, YOUR INVESTIGATOR ASKED ME IF I KNEW WHO THIS
9 WAS. I TOLD HIM HE LOOKED FAMILIAR; HOWEVER, HE LOOKS
10 OLDER IN THIS PICTURE.
11 Q. YEAH. GO AHEAD.
12 A. AFfER SEEING HIM OUTSIDE, I THOUGHT, "OH, YEAH,
13 THAT'S JOSUE."
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO BRING IN
15 JOSUE GUTIERREZ.
18 Q. MR. RIOS, THIS GENTLEMAN, SITTING HERE WITH THE
19 WHITE SHIRT -- APPEARS TO BE RED AND BLACK CRISSCROSS
20 STRIPES -- WHO'S HE?
21 A. THAT WOULD BE JOSUE.
22 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW HIS LAST NAME?
23 A. NO.
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. PLEASE GO OUTSIDE.
26 Q. DID YOU SEE JOSUE THAT NIGHT?
27 A. YES. HE WAS WITH ALEX AND A FEW OTHER KIDS.
28 Q. WHERE WAS HE?
1864
1 A. HE WAS JUST OUTSIDE OF -- ON THE CORNER OF

2 BOUNDARY, 41 5 t AND T STREET.
3 Q. AND WHERE DID HE COME FROM?
4 A. HE CAME FROM THE DIRECTION OF THE QUINCEANERA.
'
5 Q. AND WITH REGARD TO THE GUNSHOTS, WHEN WAS THIS?
6 A. JUST SHORTLY BEFORE.
7 Q. LIKE, CAN YOU GIVE A BEST ESTIMATE?
8 A. TWO, THREE MINUTES BEFOREHAND.
9 Q. AND WAS HE WITH YOU DURING THE GUNSHOTS?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO WHEN THE GUNSHOTS WENT OFF, YOU SAW JOSUE
12 OUTSIDE SOMEWHERE ON BOUNDARY STREET; IS THAT RIGHT?
13 A. THEY WERE ON THE -- THE PARTY HAD BASICALLY --
14 THERE WAS A LOT OF KIDS TRYING TO GET INTO THE PARTY.
15 THERE WAS A FEW KIDS THAT WERE COMING UP FROM T STREET
16 KIND OF DRESSED UP, ONE OF THEM ON A BICYCLE. THEY WERE
17 GOING TO TRY TO SEE IF THEY CAN GET INTO THE PARTY.
18 AND JOSUE, ALEX, THEY WERE JUST OUTSIDE ON THE
19 STREET BASICALLY BUT JUST OUTSIDE OF THE SENIOR BUILDING.
20 Q. AND THAT'S WHERE THEY WERE WHEN THE GUNSHOTS
21 WENT OFF?
22 A. ACTUALLY, ALEX WAS CLOSER TO WHERE I WAS AT
23 BECAUSE THEY HAD COME UP TO ASK -- TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT
24 THE FACILITY HAS BEEN BROKEN INTO.
25 Q. AND YOU KNOW JOSUE. YOU'D MET HIM BEFORE THAT
26 NIGHT?
27 A. YEAH. HE'S BEEN A REGULAR KID AT THE REC
'
28 CENTER.
1865
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR

2 HONOR.
3 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU.
6
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. MR. RIOS, YOU WERE TALKED TO BY THE POLICE THAT
10 NIGHT, CORRECT?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THE POLICE YOU SAW JOSUE
13 THAT NIGHT?
14 A. I WASN'T ASKED TO SEE IF I HAD IDENTIFIED ANY
15 PERSON OR NOT.
16 Q. YOU DID IDENTIFY THE PERSON THOUGH THAT WAS WITH
17 ALEX; DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
18 A. PROBABLY. I'M NOT SURE. THAT NIGHT WAS KIND OF
19 INTERESTING.
20 Q. SO WAS ALEX ANOTHER REGULAR THAT WAS AT THE REC
21 CENTER THAT WAS WITH HIM?
22 A. EXCUSE ME?
23 Q. IT WAS ALEX -- ALEXIS LOPEZ -- HE'S A
24 VOLUNTEER
25 A. YES.
26 Q. -- AND ANOTHER KID THAT YOU RECOGNIZE BECAUSE
27 HE'S A REGULAR?
28 A. CORRECT.
1866
1 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THE POLICE IT WAS ALEX

2 AND LUIS?
3 A. LUIS WAS THERE AS WELL.
4 Q. SO WHEN YOU WERE TOLD -- WHEN YOU SAID, "TWO OF
5 THE KIDS, LUIS AND ALEX, WHO WERE OUTSIDE WITH ME SAID
6 THEY KNEW THE FEMALE IN THE CAR," LUIS AND ALEX WERE THERE
7 TALKING WITH YOU?
8 A. CORRECT.
9 Q. YOU ALSO SAID TO THE POLICE THAT LUIS AND ALEX
10 WERE THE TWO KIDS THAT WERE THERE BEFORE THE GUNSHOTS AS
11 WELL?
12 A. CORRECT, ALONG WITH A FEW OTHER KIDS AS WELL.
13 Q. WE'VE HEARD THAT JOSUE GUTIERREZ, OR JOSUE, IS A
14 REGULAR AT THE REC CENTER TOO, CORRECT?
15 A. HE WAS.
16 Q. IS HE STILL?
17 A. I'M NOT SURE. I HAVEN'T BEEN THERE IN TWO
18 YEARS.
19 Q. WHEN DID YOU STOP WORKING THERE?
20 A. JULY OF 2009.
21 Q. SO YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN JOSUE AT THE TIME YOU
22 IDENTIFIED ALEX AND LUIS AS WELL?
23 A. ALEX AND LUIS -- I KNEW THEM BY FIRST NAMES
24 REGULARLY. JOSUE WAS LIKE A LITTLE TAG-ALONG.
25 Q. AND WE HEARD THAT JOSUE -- YOU ACTUALLY DID KNOW
26 HIS FIRST NAME AT THE TIME TOO?
27 A. AT THE TIME, BUT HE WASN'T -- LIKE I SAID, HE
28 WAS NOT RIGHT THERE WITH ALEX. THEY WERE FURTHER OUT. IT
1867
1 WAS HIM AND ANOTHER KID ON A BICYCLE THAT IF YOU WERE TO

2 SHOW ME HIS PICTURE, I'D SAY, "YEP, THAT'S WHO THAT IS,"
3 BUT I DON'T KNOW HIM BY NAME.
4 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THIS OTHER KID ON THE
5 BICYCLE?
6 A. SHORTER, LIGHTER SKINNED, GREENISH-BLUISH EYES.
7 Q. WAS HE HEAVY?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. THIN?
10 A. MEDIUM THIN.
11 Q. HE WASN'T A HEAVY, OVERWEIGHT KID?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. WAS THERE A GIRL THAT WAS WITH THESE GUYS?
14 A. THERE WERE A FEW GIRLS OUTSIDE.
15 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY GIRLS WITH ALEX AND LUIS AND I
16 GUESS NOW JOSUE?
17 A. I'M NOT TOO SURE.
18 Q. DID THESE GUYS COME BACK TWO DAYS LATER AND ASK
19 TO SEE THE VIDEO?
20 A. THEY WANTED TO SEE IF WE CAN RECOGNIZE THE CAR
21 THAT HAD DRIVEN BY.
22 Q. JOSUE CAME AT THIS TIME?
23 A. A FEW OF THE KIDS DID.
24 Q. HE SPECIFICALLY ASKED TO SEE HIMSELF ON THE
25 VIDEO?
26 A. I'M NOT TOO SURE ABOUT THAT. THEY JUST
27 BASICALLY WANTED TO SEE IF WE COULD SEE BASICALLY THE
28 VEHICLE THAT HAD DRIVEN BY.
1868
1 Q. WE'RE HERE THREE YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, CORRECT?

2 A. EXCUSE ME?
3 Q. WE'RE HERE NOW THREE YEARS LATER?
4 A. YES I
5 Q. THE ONLY TIME YOU'VE SEEN JOSUE NOW IS IN A

6 PICTURE AND WHEN A DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR ASKED YOU 11
IS THIS
7 JOSUE?.. CORRECT?
..
8 A. NOT NECESSARILY. HE HAD ASKED ME BEFORE IF THIS
9 WAS JOSUE. I TOLD HIM THAT HE DOESN'T LOOK -- HE LOOKS
10 OLDER IN THE PICTURE.
11 Q. IN FACT, WE'VE HEARD JOSUE IS A LOT
12 DIFFERENT-LOOKING NOW, CORRECT?
13 A. WHEN I SAW HIM OUTSIDE, BASICALLY HE LOOKS LIKE
r 14 THE SAME KID, JUST WITH A LITTLE DEEPER OR DARKER GOATEE
15 AND MUSTACHE.
16 Q. SO HE'S NOT BIGGER OR TALLER OR ANYTHING LIKE
17 THAT?
18 A. NOT REALLY.
19 Q. HE'S NOT MORE DEFINED AS AN OLDER PERSON?
20 A. NO.
21 Q. HE LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME EXCEPT FOR A MUSTACHE?
22 A. WELL, FOR THE MOST PART, YES.
23 Q. IS LUIS STILL HANGING AROUND THE REC CENTER?
24 A. I'M NOT SURE. I HAVEN'T SEEN LUIS IN A FEW
25 YEARS. I HAVE NOT SEEN MOST OF THESE KIDS SINCE PRETTY
26 MUCH I LEFT MOUNTAIN VIEW COMMUNITY CENTER.
27 WE DON'T NORMALLY TEND TO GO BACK TO THE
28 PREVIOUS SITES, SO -- THAT'S NOT TO UNDERMINE THE NEW
1869
1 FACILITY DIRECTOR. A LOT OF TIMES BASICALLY PEOPLE ARE

2 VERY, "OH, WE REMEMBER WHEN SO-AND-SO WAS HERE. NOW HE'S
3 BACK,n AND THEN-- IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
4 Q. SO THESE WOULD BE PEOPLE -- I MEAN, YOU GET
5 PRETTY ATTACHED WITH THE KIDS IN THE COMMUNITY?
6 A. FOR THE MOST PART, YES, ESPECIALLY AFTER WE'VE
7 COACHED QUITE A FEW OF THEM.
8 Q. ESPECIALLY GUYS LIKE ALEX?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. SO ALEX WOULD ALSO HANG AROUND WITH THESE GUYS
11 ON A REGULAR BASIS, TOO?
12 A. I WOULD SAY SO.
13 Q. SO YOU'VE SEEN THEM TOGETHER MULTIPLE TIMES?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. YET WHEN THE POLICE ASKED YOU THE NIGHT OF THE
16 SHOOTING, JOSUE'S NAME NEVER CAME UP?
17 A. LUIS AND ALEX WERE BASICALLY THE ONES THAT WERE
18 ALWAYS AT THE REC CENTER. WHEN I MEAN nALWAYS,n I'M
19 TALKING EVERY SINGLE DAY. THEY ALSO WENT TO PRETTY MUCH
20 ALL OF OUR FIELD TRIPS AS OUR -- FOR LACK OF A BETTER
21 TERM -- OUR FAVORITES.
22 WE USUALLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, THOSE FAVORITE KIDS.
23 YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF KIDS THAT ARE USUALLY ALWAYS AROUND.
24 THERE'S ALWAYS A GOOD LITTLE GROUP OF KIDS. LUIS AND ALEX
25 WERE VERY GOOD.
26 TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, IF YOU WOULD NOT HAVE
27 MENTIONED LUIS'S NAME RIGHT NOW, BASICALLY I WOULD -- IT
28 WOULD NOT HAVE COME UP. BUT WHEN YOU MENTIONED LUIS, IT
1870
1 JUST KIND OF CLICKED IN, KIND OF GOING, "OH, THAT'S RIGHT,

2 LUIS."
3 LUIS WAS A GOOD KID AS FAR AS WE WERE CONCERNED.
4 Q. SO THESE PEOPLE -- YOU JUST NATURALLY ASSUME
5 LUIS, ALEX, AND JOSUE IS GOING TO BE TAGGING ALONG WITH
6 THEM?
7 A. FOR THE MOST PART. IT WAS USUALLY JUST LUIS AND
8 ALEX AND ONE OTHER KID, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME, BUT
9 HE WAS USUALLY ALWAYS IN TROUBLE AND SO HIS MOTHER
10 BASICALLY WOULD ONLY LET HIM GO OUT WHENEVER HE WASN'T IN
11 TROUBLE. THOSE WERE THE THREE KIDS THAT WERE DAY IN/DAY
12 OUT AT THE REC CENTER.
13 PRETTY MUCH THE REST OF THE KIDS WERE AROUND THE
14 REC CENTER. THEY'D HANG OUT. THEY'D COME IN. THEY'D
15 COME INTO THE REC CENTER AND JUST
.. KIND OF BOW THEIR HEADS
16 AND JUST KIND OF SAY HELLO, WOULD NOT BE DISRESPECTFUL,
17 BUT THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH HANGING OUT WHENEVER OUR
18 FACILITY WAS EITHER CLOSED OR WE HAD ACTIVITIES GOING ON
19 OUTSIDE.
22 REDIRECT?
24
27 Q. MR. RIOS
28 A. YES.
1871
1 Q. -- YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT ALEXIS LOPEZ -- WHO WE

2 HE SAW, RIGHT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. -- AND LUIS. DO YOU KNOW HIS LAST NAME?
5 A. I DON'T KNOW HIS LAST NAME.
6 Q. IS IT PATLON?
7 A. I'M NOT TOO SURE.
8 Q. BUT YOU KNOW LUIS AND ALEX?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. THEY VOLUNTEERED AT THE REC CENTER?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. YOU SAW THEM ALL THE TIME?
13 A. PRETTY MUCH.
14 Q. SO WHEN THE POLICE WERE ASKING YOU QUESTIONS,
15 THOSE ARE THE TWO THAT YOU THOUGHT WERE RELEVANT TO THE
16 QUESTIONS?
17 A. THOSE WERE THE TWO THAT ACTUALLY CAME UP TO ME.
18 Q. JOSUE YOU'D SEEN BEFORE THOUGH, TOO, RIGHT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. BUT HE NEVER VOLUNTEERED AT THE REC CENTER?
21 A. I WOULDN'T SAY HE VOLUNTEERED. HE WOULD HELP
22 OUT. HE WASN'T THE KIND OF PERSON THAT I WOULD GIVE MY
11
23 FACILITY KEYS TO AND SAY, 11
GO GET THIS, WHEREAS FOR ALEX
24 AND LUIS, IT PRETTY MUCH WAS A NO-BRAINER. I TRUSTED THEM
25 WITH PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING.
11
26 WHAT I MEAN BY 11
EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING, IN THE
27 SENSE OF WHATEVER WE HAD AT THE FACILITY. IF THE KITCHEN
28 NEEDED TO BE OPEN FOR A PATRON OR WHATNOT, OR THE MEETING
1872
1 ROOM, OR IF WE NEEDED A BROOM OUT OF THE CLOSET TO GO

2 SWEEP UP SOMETHING, THOSE WERE OUR GO-TO PERSONS.
3 IF THEY HAD A LITTLE HELP LIKE THEIR FRIENDS
4 WITH THEM, LIKE JOSUE, LIKE THE OTHER YOUNGER KID, AND
5 EVEN IN THE CASE OF MOISES -- MOISES BASICALLY AS A KID
6 WHEN I MEAN A "KID," 8, 9, 10 YEARS OLD-- WAS ALWAYS AT
7 THE REC CENTER. AS HE GOT OLDER, HE WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE
8 RESERVED. HE DIDN'T REALLY COME STRAIGHT FORWARD TO US
9 AND SAY HELLO OR ANYTHING.
10 BUT THOSE WERE THE KIND OF KIDS THAT WE WOULD
11 GIVE, LIKE ALEX OR LUIS, THE KEYS AND GO, "GET SOME OF
12 YOUR BOYS AND GO HAVE THEM CLEAN UP, YOU KNOW, THE GYM OR
13 THE MEETING ROOM" OR "GO SET UP THE TABLES." SO THEY WERE
14 THE ONES GOING OVER THERE AND DOING THAT.
15 Q. MR. RIOS, DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT TIME YOU TALKED
16 TO THE POLICE THAT NIGHT?
17 A. WHEN THE ALARM WENT OFF, OR AFTER THE FACT?
18 Q. YES -- EXCUSE ME -- THE TIME YOU TALKED TO THE
19 POLICE ABOUT THE MURDER.
20 A. I WANT TO SAY A FEW MINUTES AFTER THE SHOOTING.
21 WE GOT -- I GOT UP TO THE PARK AREA AND THE AMBULANCE HAD
22 JUST GOTTEN THERE AND THEY WERE STARTING TO CORDON OFF THE
23 STREET.
24 I WAS TRYING TO LET THE POLICE KNOW THAT WE HAD
25 SEEN -- MY MAIN CONCERN WAS BECAUSE IT WAS JUST AN ODD
26 THING TO SEE THE VEHICLE THAT HAD BEEN RACING AWAY FROM
27 OR GOING AGAINST THE ONE-WAY STREET BASICALLY, SO I WANTED
28 TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAD SEEN THAT AND THAT WE HAD SEEN A
1873
1 FEMALE DRIVER AND A COUPLE PEOPLE IN THE BACK SEAT.

2 Q. THIS IS THE HONDA THAT WENT DOWN THE WRONG WAY?
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. MR. RIOS, IS IT SAFE TO SAY YOU DON'T REMEMBER
5 THE EXACT TIME THAT YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE, RIGHT?
6 A. NOT REALLY. I MEAN, EVERYTHING HAPPENED SO
7 FAST. I KNOW I GOT THERE SOMETIME AFTER, YOU KNOW,
8 8:00 O'CLOCK OR SO.
9 Q. WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IF I SHOWED
10 YOU A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT?
11 A. PROBABLY.
12 Q. JUST READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH AND THE SECOND
13 PARAGRAPH OF THIS REPORT, MR. RIOS, AND THEN LOOK UP WHEN
14 YOU'RE DONE. READ IT TO YOURSELF.
16 THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY. I WAS READING THE ENTIRE
17 THING, BUT --
19 Q. RIGHT HERE (INDICATING).
20 A. OKAY.
21 Q. RIGHT HERE (INDICATING). IS THAT ABOUT RIGHT?
22 DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
23 A. PRETTY MUCH, YEAH. I KNOW THAT I DIDN'T GET
24 HOME THAT NIGHT UNTIL CLOSE TO 1:00 O'CLOCK IN THE
25 MORNING.
26 Q. WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWED,
.. IT WAS PROBABLY PAST
27 MIDNIGHT?
28 A. YES.
1874
1 Q. AND THE SHOOTING HAD HAPPENED, WHAT, LIKE THREE

2 HOURS EARLIER?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND YOU HAD COME INTO CONTACT WITH A BUNCH OF
5 KIDS THAT NIGHT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND THE NAMES THAT YOU GAVE TO THE POLICE THAT
8 NIGHT WERE, WHAT, LUIS AND ALEX, RIGHT?
9 A. I WANT TO SAY APPARENTLY, YES.
10 Q. DID YOU GIVE THE NAMES OF EVERY SINGLE KID YOU
11 SAW THAT NIGHT?
12 A. NO, BECAUSE I WOULD NOT REMEMBER EVERY SINGLE
13 KID THAT NIGHT.
16 MR. TROCHA: I DO HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS, YOUR
17 HONOR. GIVE ME A SECOND.
19
21 BY MR. TROCHA:
22 Q. THAT WASN'T THE ONLY TIME YOU TALKED TO THE
23 POLICE THOUGH? THEY CALLED YOU TWO DAYS LATER?
24 A. CORRECT. I BELIEVE -- I'M NOT TOO SURE HOW
25 ACCURATE THIS IS, BUT THEY WANTED TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT
26 OUR SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS HAD ACCESS OR ACCESSIBILITY TO
27 THAT PART OF THE PARK.
28 Q. YOU INFORMED THEM THAT THEY DON'T?
1875
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. AT THIS TIME ALSO THE ONLY NAMES YOU MENTIONED
3 WERE LUIS AND ALEX. YOU ACTUALLY VOLUNTEERED TO GIVE
4 THEIR INFORMATION TO THE POLICE.
5 A. YES.
6 Q. JOSUE'S NAME STILL DIDN'T COME UP, CORRECT?
7 A. FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, CORRECT.
8 Q. AND THIS WOULD ACTUALLY BE THE TIME AROUND WHEN
9 JOSUE CAME BY TO LOOK -- TO SEE THE VIDEO AS WELL?
10 A. IT WASN'T JUST JOSUE, LUIS AND ALEX; THERE WERE
11 ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE KIDS THAT CAME
.. IN, AND AT THE TIME
12 BASICALLY, I MEAN, HONESTLY, LUIS AND ALEX ARE JUST --
13 LIKE I MENTIONED BEFORE, THEY WERE BASICALLY OUR GO-TO
14 KIDS. EVERYBODY ELSE WAS, LIKE, "HEY, GO GET YOUR BOY
15 OVER THERE" OR "GO GET YOUR HOMEBOY" OR "GO GET YOUR
16 FRIEND" OR WHATEVER. " SO, YEAH, I DID NOT MENTION HIS
17 NAME.
18 Q. AND LIKE YOU SAID, YOU CAN'T REMEMBER EVERY
19 SINGLE KID --
20 A. CORRECT.
21 Q. -- EVEN TWO DAYS AFTERWARDS, BEING MIDNIGHT AND
22 THINGS LIKE THAT.
\
23 A. PRETTY MUCH. THERE WERE A LOT OF KIDS OUT

24 THERE.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, BRIEFLY.
28 \\
1876

2
4 Q. DID YOU KNOW MOISES LOPEZ?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. YOU KNEW HE WAS THE VICTIM IN THIS CASE WHO WAS
7 SHOT?
8 A. WE WERE TOLD THE NAME OF -- WELL, ACTUALLY, WE
9 WERE NOT TOLD THE NAME. WE WEREN'T TOLD THE NAME UNTIL
10 AFTERWARDS, AND I DIDN'T PUT A NAME TO THE FACE UNTIL THE
11 FOLLOWING DAY. I COULD NOT REMEMBER WHAT MOISES LOOKED
12 LIKE.
13 Q. BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW. YOU KNOW A
14 LITTLE KID GOT SHOT IN
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE TO HELP WHOMEVER WAS
17 RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH?
18 A. NO.
23 MR. TROCHA: YES.
24 THE COURT: MR. RIOS, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT,
25 SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE
26 DON'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN
'
27 INVESTIGATORS UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER, OKAY? GOOD DAY TO
28 YOU, SIR.
1877
1 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. SAME TO YOU.

2 THE COURT: LET'S TAKE THE NOON RECESS, LADIES AND
3 GENTLEMEN. WE'LL PLAN ON RECONVENING AT 1:30. PLEASE
4 REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG
5 YOURSELVES ON ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS CASE.
6 PLEASE DON'T FORM OR EXPRESS ANY OPINION UNTIL THE CAUSE
7 IS SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR YOUR DECISION. ENJOY YOUR LUNCH
8 AND WE'LL SEE YOU AT 1:30. THANK YOU.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GIVE ME ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR.
11 THE COURT: YES.
15 THE COURT: THANK YOU. NO JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL
16 PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT.
17 WE'VE HAD AN INTERPRETER STANDING BY ESSENTIALLY
18 SINCE 11:00, MR. SPEREDELOZZI. WHEN IS THAT WITNESS GOING
19 ON?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD TAKE HER NEXT. WHEN I
21 CALLED CARLOS RIOS, THE INTERPRETER WASN'T HERE.
22 THE COURT: SHE HAD BEEN HERE AND THAT WAS WELL AFTER
23 11:00, AND SHE HAD STEPPED OUT. THAT'S FINE. SHE'S HERE
24 NOW.
25 THE INTERPRETER: I'VE BEEN SITTING OUT IN THE
26 HALLWAY ALL MORNING.
27 THE COURT: CAN YOU BE HERE AT 1:30?
28 THE INTERPRETER: YES, YOUR HONOR.
1878
1 THE COURT: WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT WITNESS?

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HER NAME IS ANA MARTINEZ.
3 THE COURT: THE BATTING ORDER OF OTHER DEFENSE
4 WITNESSES PLEASE, AS BEST YOU CAN.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS AFTERNOON POTENTIALLY
6 RANDY BARNES, ISHMAEL ACEVES, EVELYN SOTO,
7 JOSUE GUTIERREZ -- I'M GOING TO RECALL ALEXIS LOPEZ
8 RONALD MARTINEZ, CARLOS RIOS -- NO CARLOS RIOS JUST
9 TESTIFIED -- AND ANA MARTINEZ. AND IF WE GET THERE,
10 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, DIANA BANUELOS AND SIRIA FORD.
11 THE COURT: I WAS INFORMED THAT WE WERE HAVING AN
12 ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO JOSUE'S ATTENDANCE. I GATHER THAT'S
13 BEEN RESOLVED?
r 14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE'S HERE.
15 THE COURT: YEAH, HE CAME IN, I KNOW, BUT THAT'S
16 RESOLVED, YES?
18 THE COURT: OKAY. NOW, THERE WAS ANOTHER ISSUE YOU
19 WANTED TO DISCUSS, MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, A COUPLE THINGS.
21 EVELYN QUINTEROS, SHE WAS ORDERED BACK FOR TODAY. SHE IS
22 HAVING A BABY TODAY.
23 THE COURT: YES.
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I CAN TRY AND GET HER HERE ON
25 MONDAY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT -- WHERE THESE THINGS -- AS I'M
26 SURE EVERYONE IS AWARE, WHO KNOWS WHERE THEY CAN GO AND
27 HOW LONG SHE'LL BE OUT OF COMMISSION. SHE MAY BE
28 UNAVAILABLE UNDER THE EVIDENCE CODE, AND SO IF SHE'S
1879
1 UNAVAILABLE ON MONDAY, I'LL BE SEEKING TO ADMIT HER PRIOR

2 TESTIMONY.
3 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. WE HAVE THAT
~
4 ISSUE BRIEFED WITH RESPECT TO ANOTHER WITNESS, AND WE CAN

5 ADDRESS THAT IF IT GETS DOWN TO IT. THANK YOU FOR THE
6 HEADS UP ON THAT. WHAT ELSE?
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YEAH, THE OTHER ISSUE IS THAT
8 WE'VE BEEN INVESTIGATING, AS YOU KNOW, WHILE THE TRIAL IS
9 GOING ON BECAUSE IT'S BEEN NECESSARY IN THIS CASE.
10 THE COURT: NOT UNUSUAL.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'VE TALKED TO OUR -- THERE'S A
12 RECORDING THAT THE PROSECUTION DID, OR ACTUALLY THE
13 POLICE -- I THINK, ACTUALLY DETECTIVE LAMBERT WAS THERE
14 WHERE DETECTIVE DEE WARRICK TOLD GLENNYS BERUMAN NOT TO
15 TALK TO ANYBODY REGARDING THIS~CASE, "DON'T TALK TO
16 PEOPLE," LIKE THAT OR SOMETHING. IT WAS SOMETHING TO THAT
17 EFFECT. I TOOK IT AS THEY WERE -- SHE WAS BEING
18 DISCOURAGED FROM TALKING TO DEFENSE INVESTIGATORS.
19 WE WENT TO MOISES LOPEZ'S PARENTS' HOUSE, MY
20 INVESTIGATOR, TO TALK TO THEM TO KNOW IF THEY KNEW ABOUT
21 GLENNYS BERUMAN. BEING THE DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR, WE'RE
22 TRYING TO DO THIS AS TACTFULLY AS POSSIBLE, BUT WE HAVE A
23 RIGHT TO SEE IF THEY WANT TO TALK TO US.
24 THE INDICATION FROM THEM IS THAT THEY WOULD TALK
25 TO US, BUT THEY HAD BEEN TOLD BY THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S
26 OFFICE NOT TO TALK TO THE DEFENSE TEAM, AND THEY SAID THAT
~
27 THEY'D HAVE TO GET PERMISSION FIRST BEFORE THEY WOULD TALK

28 TO US.
1880
1 IF THIS WAS US TELLING WITNESSES NOT TO TALK TO

2 THE PROSECUTION, WE COULD GET IN A LOT OF TROUBLE FOR
3 THAT. I THINK IT'S A SERIOUS THING, AND SO I WOULD LIKE
4 THE COURT TO ADDRESS IT SOMEHOW.
5 THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT'S YOUR MOTION? WHAT'S YOUR
6 REQUEST? WHAT DO YOU WANT DONE?
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, I'M NOT SURE. I GUESS IT'S
8 MISCONDUCT IN MY MIND. I WOULD LIKE SOME KIND OF SANCTION
9 FOR IT. I CAN THINK OF ONE SPECIFICALLY, AND --
10 THE COURT: DOESN'T IT NEED TO BE ESTABLISHED THAT IT
11 WAS MISCONDUCT FIRST? IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE WITNESS IS
12 EXAMINED AND IT TURNS OUT THAT -- AND THEN THE PROSECUTION
13 PRESENTS EVIDENCE THAT SAYS THAT THE PERSON WAS TOLD "YOU
14 DON'T HAVE TO TALK TO THEM. YOU CAN TALK TO THEM OR NOT
15 IF YOU WISH. IF YOU WANT SOMEBODY PRESENT FROM THE
16 PROSECUTION WHEN YOU TALK TO THEM, THAT'S FINE" --
17 IN OTHER WORDS, YOU'RE ASKING ME TO ASSUME IT
18 WAS MISCONDUCT WITHOUT A BASIS TO DRAW THAT FINDING. WHAT
19 SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU ASKING FOR, A HEARING ON THAT?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE COULD DO THAT IF THE COURT
21 WANTED TO. MY INVESTIGATOR WHO WAS TOLD THAT IS PRESENT
22 IN THE COURT.
23 THE COURT: WELL, IT'S NOT WHAT I WANT, IT'S WHAT YOU
24 WANT. THE MOTION IS A REQUEST FOR AN ORDER. WHAT ORDER
25 ARE YOU ASKING ME TO MAKE?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME THINK ABOUT THAT,
27 YOUR HONOR, AND
28 THE COURT: SURE. IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU CAN JUST
1881
1 EXPLORE IN EXAMINATION AND THE PEOPLE CAN PUT ON WHATEVER

2 CLARIFICATION THEY WISH TO PUT ON.
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, WE'RE NOT GOING TO CALL
4 MOISES' MOM AS A WITNESS.
5 MR. TROCHA: WELL, THEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM,
6 YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE I GOT A CALL FROM MY INVESTIGATOR LAST
7 NIGHT ABOUT THIS BECAUSE MAGDELENA LOPEZ, MOISES' MOTHER,
8 CALLED SAL CAMPOS AND COMPLAINED ABOUT THE DEFENSE
9 INVESTIGATOR ACCUSING HER AND HER HUSBAND OF ATTEMPTING TO
10 PUT AN INNOCENT MAN IN PRISON FOR A CRIME HE DIDN'T
11 COMMIT.
12 THEY FELT THEY WERE BEING PRESSURED BY MR. JOE
13 MALDONADO TO NOT TALK TO HIM AFTER THEY TOLD HIM REPEATED
14 TIMES nWE HAVE NO INTEREST IN TALKING TO YOU OR ANYONE
15 ASSOCIATED WITH THE DOMINGUEZ CASE.u THIS CONTINUED FOR
16 ABOUT 10 TO 15 MINUTES, ACCORDING TO THE CONVERSATION
17 MR. CAMPOS HAD WITH HER.
18 SO THIS CLAIM THAT WE'RE TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO
19 TALK TO OTHERS IS COMPLETELY FALSE TO BEGIN WITH. I WOULD
20 WELCOME A MOTION WHERE WE COULD BRING THIS OUT, BUT THIS
21 HAS BEEN A PATTERN THROUGHOUT THIS CASE OF WITNESSES
22 COMING INTO CONTACT WITH THE DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR AND
23 EITHER THEY'RE TELLING US THEY'VE SEEN PAPERWORK WITH
24 STATEMENTS ON IT OR WE'RE TOLD THAT THESE WITNESSES ARE
25 TOLD NOT TO TALK TO ANYBODY.
26 WE'RE NOW IN THIS CASE, THEY'RE GETTING ACCUSED
27 OF RAILROADING INNOCENT MEN BY A DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR.
28 I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT PROFESSIONALISM HERE. I'VE NEVER
1882
1 HEARD THAT HAPPENING BEFORE IN ANY CASE BY ANYBODY.

2 MS. MAGDALENA LOPEZ AND SIMON WILL BE HAPPY TO
3 COME INTO COURT AND TELL YOU EXACTLY ABOUT THIS
..
4 CONVERSATION IF THE COURT DEEMS THAT NECESSARY.
5 THE COURT: HERE'S WHAT I THINK MAY WELL BE THE CASE,
6 AND I MAKE NO FINDINGS. OBVIOUSLY, I'LL HAVE TO HEAR A
7 MOTION IF WE HAVE ONE.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU ARE CORRECT IN THE LAW:
9 IT WOULD CERTAINLY BE MISCONDUCT FOR THE DEFENSE OR A
10 DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR SAYING, "DON'T TALK TO THE POLICE OR
11 DON'T TALK TO THE PROSECUTOR," AND I THINK THE LAW IS
12 CLEAR IT'S EVEN MORE EGREGIOUS CONDUCT IF THE PROSECUTION
13 OR THE DEFENSE PRECLUDES -- I'M SORRY -- THE PROSECUTION
r
\ 14 OR THE POLICE PRECLUDES DEFENSE ACCESS TO WITNESSES ABSENT
15 CERTAIN LEGAL BASES FOR ACTUALLY DOING THAT, AND THOSE
16 BASES ARE FEW AND SPECIFIC.
17 WHAT I THINK EXPERIENCE SHOWS US HAPPENS A GOOD
18 DEAL OF THE TIME IS THAT THESE ARE UNSOPHISTICATED
19 WITNESSES. THEY LIVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THERE'S ALL
20 KINDS OF SOCIAL PRESSURE ON THEM TO EITHER TALK TO OR NOT
21 TALK TO THE POLICE.
22 IT IS NOT IMPERMISSIBLE FOR THE POLICE OR THE
23 DISTRICT ATTORNEY OR A REPRESENTATIVE THEREOF, IN MY VIEW,
24 TO SAY TO A WITNESS, "YOU DON'T HAVE TO TALK TO ANYBODY
25 YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK TO, INCLUDING THE DEFENSE
26 INVESTIGATOR. THE DEFENSE MAY BE CONTACTING YOU. IT'S UP
27 TO YOU WHETHER YOU GIVE THEM A STATEMENT OR NOT. IF YOU
28 PREFER NOT TO TALK TO THEM, THAT'S FINE, JUST TELL THEM
1883
1 THAT. IF YOU WANT SOMEBODY FROM OUR OFFICE PRESENT WHEN

2 YOU TALK TO THEM OR YOU WANT IT RECORDED, THEN TELL US
3 THAT. II
4 THE WITNESS THEN HEARS THAT, AND IT MAY BE THAT

5 IN THE GAME OF TELEPHONE, REFERRING FROM ONE PERSON TO
6 ANOTHER PERSON, THAT GETS COMMUNICATED TO THE DEFENSE
7 INVESTIGATOR THAT "WE WERE TOLD NOT TO TALK TO YOU."
8 LIKEWISE, IN THE REAL WORLD WE KNOW THAT
9 INVESTIGATORS -- AND I DON'T THINK IT'S IMPROPER FOR A
10 DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR TO TRY TO IMPRESS UPON A WITNESS THE
11 IMPORTANCE OF SPEAKING WITH THAT INVESTIGATOR, AND A
12 DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR MIGHT SAY, YOU KNOW, "THIS IS A
13 SERIOUS CASE, THIS IS A MURDER CHARGE, SOMEBODY'S FUTURE
14 DEPENDS ON THIS. I'M ASKING IF YOU'LL TALK TO ME." THEN
15 WHAT THAT PERSON MAY FEEL IS SOMETHING THAT'S A LITTLE BIT
16 DIFFERENT THAN IN THIS HYPOTHETICAL, THE BENIGN STATEMENT
17 THAT THE INVESTIGATOR WAS ATTEMPTING TO MAKE.
18 NOW, IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE THAT ONE SIDE OR THE
19 OTHER DID COMMIT MISCONDUCT. IF THAT'S THE CASE OR IF IT
20 IS YOUR CONCERN THAT THAT IS THE CASE, THEN WE SHOULD HAVE
21 A HEARING ON IT. WHAT WE CAN DO IS HAVE A HEARING AND
22 CALL WITNESSES AND WE CAN FIND OUT WHAT THE POLICE AND
23 WHAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S
24 INVESTIGATOR SAY THEY HAVE SAID TO THE WITNESSES. WE CAN
25 FIND OUT WHAT THE WITNESS SAYS. WE CAN FIND OUT WHAT
26 MR. MALDONADO SAYS THE WITNESS SAID TO HIM, AND WE CAN
27 FIND OUT WHAT THE WITNESSES SAY OR UNDERSTOOD FROM
28 MR. MALDONADO, AND THEN WE CAN TAKE IT FROM THERE.
1884
1 IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THAT'S REALLY NOT A

2 PRODUCTIVE AVENUE TO EXPLORE, BUT IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE
3 EVIDENCE OF ACTUAL MISCONDUCT, BY ALL MEANS MAKE THE
4 MOTION AND I'LL CONSIDER IT.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL ACCEPT, YOUR HONOR, WITH
6 REGARD TO MS. BERUMAN, WE HAVE THESE COMMENTS TO HER
7 AUDIO-RECORDED. THE DETECTIVES TOLD HER NOT TO SPEAK WITH
8 us.
9 THE COURT: WELL, WHAT DID THEY ACTUALLY SAY?
10 MR. TROCHA: IT'S BLACK AND WHITE.
11 THE COURT: WHAT --
12 MR. TROCHA: THEY SAID, "DON'T TALK TO ANYBODY NOT
13 CONNECTED WITH THE CASE WHO WON'T IDENTIFY THEMSELVES,"
14 NOT "DO NOT TALK TO THE DEFENSE OR THE DEFENSE
15 INVESTIGATOR."
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID.
17 MR. TROCHA: WELL, MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST SEE THE
18 TRANSCRIPT AND SEE WHAT THE TRANSCRIPT SAYS.
19 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE DO THAT. IF YOU WANT A
20 MOTION ON IT --
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME FIND IT OVER THE LUNCH
22 BREAK AND WE'LL ADDRESS IT, AND.. IF I DECIDE TO MAKE A
23 MOTION, I WILL.
24 THE COURT: SURE, NO PROBLEM. I MEAN, IF THERE IS
25 MISCONDUCT OR AN ALLEGATION THAT EITHER SIDE WANTS TO
26 PURSUE, WE'LL PURSUE IT, AND IF THERE'S NOT, WE WON'T.
27 I'M NOT TRYING TO DISCOURAGE EITHER SIDE. I'M JUST
28 SUGGESTING HOW EXPERIENCE TENDS TO SHOW THESE THINGS TEND
1885
1 TO SHAKE OUT, BUT THIS MAY BE THE CASE WHERE IT DOESN'T

2 SHAKE OUT THAT WAY. IT COULD BE EITHER WAY.
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. SHOULD I HAVE MY
4 WITNESSES ORDERED BACK FOR 1:30?
5 THE COURT: WELL, IF YOU THINK YOU NEED THEM ORDERED
6 BACK, OR IF YOU THINK THEY'LL BE BACK --
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ARE THEY STILL HERE?
8 THE BAILIFF: POSSIBLY. I DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE,
9 BUT IF YOU COME AND CHECK.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK IT WOULD BE --
11 THE COURT: IN AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION.
14 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON NOW, LADIES
15 AND GENTLEMEN. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, DO ALL OF THESE -- WITH NO
17 DISRESPECT, DO ALL OF THESE PEOPLE SPEAK ENGLISH?
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: EXCEPT ANA MARTINEZ. SHE DOES
19 NOT.
20 THE COURT: IS THERE A PERSON WHO CAN EXPLAIN TO
21 ANA MARTINEZ IN THE SPANISH LANGUAGE -- MR. MALDONADO, ARE
22 YOU BILINGUAL?
23 MR. MALDONADO: YES, YOUR HONOR.
24 THE COURT: I KIND OF THOUGHT SO.
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, GIVE ME THE NAMES, PLEASE,
26 SLOWLY AND CLEARLY FOR THE COURT REPORTER.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE HAVE RANDY BARNES, JOSUE
28 GUTIERREZ, ISHMAEL ACEVES, EVELYN SOTO, ALEXIS LOPEZ,
1886
1 RONALD MARTINEZ AND ANA MARTINEZ.

2 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU EACH FOR
3 BEING HERE. I KNOW YOU'RE HERE PURSUANT TO COURT ORDER.
4 YOU'RE REQUIRED TO BE HERE, BUT I THANK YOU NONETHELESS.
5 I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT EACH ONE OF YOU COME
6 BACK IN THIS COURTROOM RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW AT
7 1:30 THIS AFTERNOON, AND WE'LL'START GOING THROUGH THE
8 TESTIMONY OF EACH OF YOU ONE AT A TIME.
9 MR. MALDONADO, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO
10 MS. MARTINEZ.
11 MR. MALDONADO: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE; I'VE EXPLAINED IT
12 TO HER.
13 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICES IN THAT
14 REGARD.
15 DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND YOU'RE TO BE BACK HERE
16 AT 1:30? I HEAR ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES, AND THAT WILL
17 BE THE ORDER. THANK YOU. WE'LL BE IN RECESS.
18 (THE LUNCH RECESS WAS TAKEN AT 12:07 P.M.)
'
19 * * *
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
1887
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY. APRIL 13. 2011

2 1:30 P.M.
3
5 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THE
6 RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES
7 AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. WE CONTINUE WITH THE
8 PRESENTATION OF THE DEFENSE EVIDENCE.
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
11 DEFENSE CALLS ANA MARTINEZ.
12 THE COURT: ANA MARTINEZ. THANK YOU.
13 MA'AM, PLEASE FACE THIS LADY -- I'M SORRY --
14 THIS GENTLEMAN, AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
15
16 ANA MARTINEZ.
18 SWORN, TESTIFIED THROUGH A SPANISH INTERPRETER AS FOLLOWS:
19
21 THE COURT: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT UP HERE IN THE WITNESS
22 STAND, MA'AM. MS. MARTINEZ IS ASSISTED BY AN OFFICIAL
'
23 COURT INTERPRETER.
24 THE INTERPRETER: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
25 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON.
26 MS. MARTINEZ, GOOD AFTERNOON.
28 THE CLERK: WILL YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND
1888
1 SPELL YOUR LAST NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE.

2 THE WITNESS: ANA MARTINEZ, A-N-A, M-A-R-T-I-N-E-Z.
6
9 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. MARTINEZ.
11 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY:
12 YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE HERE TESTIFYING, CORRECT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN MY INVESTIGATOR
15 SERVED YOU WITH A SUBPOENA?
16 A. I WANT TO KNOW WHY I WAS WANTED HERE. I HAVE
17 NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING HERE.
18 Q. IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT MY OFFICE FORCED
19 YOU TO COME INTO COURT?
20 A. NO. I'M HERE BECAUSE OF A YOUNG MAN WHO SAID I
21 GAVE HIM A RIDE.
22 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. DO YOU REMEMBER -- DO
23 YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED MOISES LOPEZ?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER A SHOOTING IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD
26 BACK IN SEPTEMBER OF 2008?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. DID YOU KNOW THE PERSON WHO WAS THE VICTIM IN
1889
1 THAT CASE?
2 A. NO.
3 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER IF IT WAS AROUND
4 SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008?
6 Q. DOES THAT SOUND ABOUT RIGHT?
8 Q. THE NIGHT THAT SOMEBODY WAS SHOT, A LITTLE BOY
9 WAS SHOT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, WHAT WERE YOU DOING AROUND
10 5:00 OR 6:00 O'CLOCK? WHERE WERE YOU?
11 A. I WAS AT HOME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT
12 THAT.
13 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, YOU HAVE SOME CHILDREN, RIGHT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES?
16 A. CAROL, CHRISTIAN AND RONALD MARTINEZ.
17 Q. CAROL IS A FEMALE, RIGHT?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. RONALD AND CHRISTIAN ARE BOTH MEN?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. HOW OLD ARE THEY?
22 A. MY GIRL IS 20
23 Q. THAT'S CAROL?
24 A. -- 21 AND 22.
25 Q. 21 IS RONALD?
26 A. MM-HMM.
27 Q. 22 IS CHRISTIAN?
28 A. YES.
1890
1 Q. WHERE WERE THEY WHEN YOU WERE HOME? WHERE WAS

2 RONALD WHEN YOU WERE HOME THAT NIGHT?
3 A. RONALD -- AT NIGHT THEY WERE AT THE
4 15-YEAR-OLD -- RONALD AND CAROL.
5 Q. DURING THE DAY, BEFORE THE QUINCEANERA STARTED,
6 WHERE WERE THEY THEN? WHERE WAS RONALD THEN?
7 A. AT MY HOUSE.
8 Q. AND DID YOU KNOW WHERE CAROL -- CAROL AND
9 CHRISTIAN WERE?
10 A. CAROL WAS AT THE CARNE ASADA.
'
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THE CARNE ASADA WAS BEING
12 HELD?
13 A. THERE AT THE PARK ON 40th.
14 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 1.
15 MS. MARTINEZ, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PARK THAT'S DEPICTED IN
16 THE TOP PHOTOGRAPH ON PROSECUTION 1?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT IS THIS GREEN AREA ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE
19 EXHIBIT (INDICATING)?
20 THE INTERPRETER: THE QUESTION AGAIN FOR THE
21 INTERPRETER?
23 Q. WHAT IS THIS GREEN AREA ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE
24 EXHIBIT?
25 A. THE PARK.
26 Q. WITH REGARD TO THAT AREA, WHERE WAS THE, TO YOUR
27 KNOWLEDGE, CARNE ASADA BEING HELD?
28 A. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, WHERE THEY WERE.
1891
1 Q. AT SOME POINT DID CAROL COME HOME FROM THE CARNE

2 ASADA?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. DID SOMEBODY COME HOME THAT NIGHT AND PICK UP
5 YOUR SON RONALD?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHO WAS THAT?
8 A. CAROL.
9 Q. WHO WAS WITH HER?
10 A. I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE WHO WAS
11 THERE.
12 Q. COULD YOU HEAR ANYTHING WHEN THEY WERE PICKING
13 UP RONALD?
14 A. NO. I WAS COOKING. I DID NOT KNOW WHO WAS
15 THERE.
16 Q. WAS IT MORE THAN JUST CAROL, OR WAS IT JUST
17 CAROL?
18 A. I ONLY SAW HER COME IN FOR MY SON, AND THAT WAS
19 IT.
20 Q. AND THEN DID THEY LEAVE? DID SHE LEAVE WITH
21 RONALD?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING, THEY WERE GOING TO THE
24 QUINCEANERA, RIGHT?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHEN THEY WERE HOME,'WERE YOU -- YOU SAID YOU
27 WERE COOKING, RIGHT?
28 A. YES.
1892
1 Q. WERE YOU IN A DIFFERENT ROOM FROM WHERE CAROL

2 WAS AT -- WAS LOCATED?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AT THAT -- A FEW HOURS LATER IS WHEN SOMETHING
5 STARTLING HAPPENED, RIGHT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WHAT HAPPENED?
8 A. I JUST HEARD SOME GUNSHOTS.
9 Q. WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, WHAT DID YOU DO?
10 A. I GOT IN THE CAR AND WENT TO LOOK FOR MY
11 CHILDREN.
12 Q. WHY?
13 A. BECAUSE I THOUGHT SOMETHING HAD HAPPENED TO ONE
14 OF MY CHILDREN.
15 Q. HOW SOON AFTER YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS DID YOU
16 LEAVE YOUR HOUSE?
17 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I HEARD THE SHOTS AND THEN I
18 SAW THAT A LOT OF POLICE CARS AND AMBULANCES WERE COMING,
..
19 SO -- I DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR HOUSE, WHO DID YOU SEE?
21 A. RAUL.
22 Q. WHAT'S HIS LAST NAME?
23 A. I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT I THINK IT'S GARCIA. I
24 ONLY KNOW HIM AS "RAUL."
25 Q. WHAT DOES HE LOOK LIKE?
26 A. HE'S A TALL BOY, FAIR-COMPLECTED, A LITTLE
27 HEAVY.
28 Q. WHERE DID YOU PICK HIM UP?
1893
1 A. A FEW BLOCKS FROM MY HOUSE.

2 Q. WHAT -- HOW DO YOU KNOW RAUL?
3 A. BECAUSE HE IS A FRIEND OF MY CHILDREN.
4 Q. ONCE YOU PICKED HIM UP, WHERE DID YOU GO WITH
5 HIM?
6 A. TO HIS HOUSE.
7 Q. AFTER YOU DROPPED HIM OFF -- YOU DROPPED HIM OFF
8 THEN?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT?
'
11 A. I WENT BACK HOME BECAUSE I DID NOT SEE ANYONE, I
12 DID NOT FIND MY CHILDREN.
13 Q. WHEN DID YOU NEXT SEE YOUR DAUGHTER CAROL?
14 A. WELL, THEY ARRIVED EARLY IN THE MORNING, BUT I
15 DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS.
16 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHO DROPPED THEM OFF AT YOUR
17 HOUSE?
18 A. MY SISTER.
19 Q. OKAY. WERE YOU SLEEPING AT THAT TIME?
20 A. NO.
23 CROSS?
24
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, YOU DIDN'T GIVE YOUR CHILDREN A
28 RIDE TO THE QUINCEANERA?
1894
1 A. NO.
2 Q. HOW DID THEY GET THERE?
3 A. WHERE? TO THE QUINC~ANERA?
4 Q. YES.
5 A. CAROL WAS DRIVING.
6 Q. YOU SAID THOUGH YOUR SISTER DROPPED HER OFF IN
7 THE MORNING.
8 A. MY SISTER WENT TO DROP THEM OFF EARLY IN THE
9 MORNING FROM THE QUINCEANERA. THAT WAS EARLY IN THE
10 MORNING.
11 Q. WHERE WAS YOUR VAN?
12 A. IT WAS LEFT IN THE PARKING LOT OF THE
13 QUINCEANERA BECAUSE EVERYTHING WAS BLOCKED OFF.
14 Q. YOU SAID THOUGH, ALSO, HOURS WENT BY AND THEN
15 YOU HEARD GUNSHOTS?
16 A. HOURS FROM WHEN?
17 Q. WHEN CAROL LEFT.
18 A. OH, YES.
19 Q. WHERE EXACTLY DID YOU SEE RAUL?
20 A. A FEW BLOCKS FROM MY HOUSE.
21 Q. WE CAN'T SEE YOUR HOUSE ON THAT PICTURE, CAN WE?
22 A. RIGHT.
23 Q. IT'S IN THIS AREA UP HERE THOUGH (INDICATING),
24 RIGHT? WHEN YOU KEEP GOING UP FRANKLIN, IT'S SOMEWHERE UP
25 HERE (INDICATING)?
26 A. ALONG FRANKLIN, NO. '
27 Q. IS IT BY LOS PENOS?
28 A. YES, LOS PENOS.
1895
1 Q. WAS RAUL NEAR LOS PENOS WHEN YOU SAW HIM?

2 A. WELL, IT'S MORE LIKE SAN MIGUEL, MORE OR LESS,
3 TOWARDS THE END OF THE BLOCK.
4 Q. THE END OF THE BLOCK WHICH WAY?
5 A. IT WAS JUST SAN MIGUEL.
6 Q. IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD UP HERE (INDICATING)?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. YOU SAW HIM IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD RIGHT AFTER THE
9 SHOTS WERE FIRED, RIGHT, AFTER YOU GOT IN YOUR CAR,
10 CORRECT?
11 A. WELL, IT'S NOT A NEIGHBORHOOD. IT WAS A STREET
12 WHERE I PICKED HIM UP.
13 Q. ARE THERE HOUSES ON THAT STREET?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. YOU LIVE NEAR THAT STREET?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. YOU DIDN'T PICK HIM UP BY THE PARK, CORRECT?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. YOU TOOK HIM HOME TO HIS HOUSE?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. HIS HOUSE IS UP OFF OF 39th; IS THAT CORRECT?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. AND FOR THOSE WHO WOULDN'T KNOW, 39th IS ONE
24 BLOCK THIS WAY, AND HIS HOUSE IS OFF THE MAP OVER HERE
25 (INDICATING) SOMEWHERE, CORRECT?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. JOSUE WAS NOT WITH HIM?
28 A. NO.
1896
1 Q. YOU NEVER SAW JOSUE THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?

2 A. NO.
3 Q. WHY IS IT THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE HERE,
4 MS. MARTINEZ?
5 A. BECAUSE MY MOTHER IS ILL AND I HAD TOLD -- AND I
6 HAD TOLD MALDONADO WHEN HE WENT TO INVESTIGATE ME.
7 Q. ARE YOU AFRAID OF TESTIFYING IN THIS CASE?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. IT'S JUST MORE OF AN INCONVENIENCE?
10 A. WELL, YES.
13 REDIRECT?
15
18 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU
19 PROSECUTION 265. CAN YOU SEE THIS MAP, MS. MARTINEZ?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. SAN MIGUEL IS THIS ROAD RIGHT HERE THAT SAYS
11
22 11
SAN MIGUEL AVE. ; ISN'T IT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. THIS ROAD THAT RUNS INTO IT, THAT'S OCEAN VIEW
25 BOULEVARD; IS IT NOT?
26 A. YES.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR THE RECORD, I'M REFERRING TO
28 THE ROAD THAT CURLS JUST BEFORE IT HITS SAN MIGUEL.
1897

3 Q. IS IT THIS AREA RIGHT HERE WHERE OCEAN VIEW
4 MEETS SAN MIGUEL -- IS THAT WHERE YOU PICKED UP RAUL?
5 A. YES.
8 MR. TROCHA: JUST ONE THING I FORGOT, YOUR HONOR.
9
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. MS. MARTINEZ, WERE YOU AT THE CARNE ASADA?
13 A. NO.
'
16 THE COURT: MS. MARTINEZ -- MAY SHE BE EXCUSED?
17 MR. TROCHA: YES.
19 THE COURT: -- THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT. YOU
1
20 MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE DON T TALK
21 ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED HERE IN COURT OR WHAT YOU WERE ASKED
22 WITH ANYBODY EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS UNTIL THE TRIAL IS OVER,
23 OKAY?
24 THE WITNESS: THAT'S FINE.
25 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
28 CALLS RONALD MARTINEZ.
1898

2
3 RONALD MARTINEZ,
6
7 THE WITNESS: YES.
9 WITNESS STAND.
10 THE COURT: UP HERE IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR, RIGHT
11 NEXT TO ME. GOOD AFTERNOON.
16 THE WITNESS: IT'S RONALD MARTINEZ, M-A-R-T-I-N-E-Z.
20
23 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. MARTINEZ.
25 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO ANA MARTINEZ IS?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHO'S THAT?
28 A. MY MOM.
1899
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO CAROL MARTINEZ IS?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHO'S THAT?
4 A. MY SISTER.
5 Q. AND CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
6 A. MY BROTHER.
7 Q. THE WHOLE FAMILY'S HERE TODAY?
8 A. YEAH.
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHO IS HE?
12 A. HE WAS MY FRIEND.
13 Q. HOW CLOSE OF FRIENDS WERE YOU?
14 A. I KNEW HIM FOR A YEAR FROM SCHOOL.
16 A. POINT LOMA HIGH.
17 Q. SAME AGE AS HIM?
18 A. NO. HE WAS 15 AND I WAS 18 AT THE TIME.
19 Q. AT WHAT TIME?
20 A. WHEN I MET HIM HE WAS 15.
21 Q. WHAT HAPPENED IN SEPTEMBER 2008?
22 A. I JUST KNOW HE-- HE'DIED.
23 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE NIGHT THAT HE PASSED AWAY?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: DO YOU KNOW WHO ALEXIS
26 LOPEZ IS?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO JOSUE GUTIERREZ IS?
1900
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHO ARE THEY?
3 A. THEY'RE MY FRIENDS TOO.
4 Q. DO YOU HANG OUT WITH THEM?
5 A. NOT THAT MUCH. I JUST KNOW THEM FROM POINT LOMA
6 TOO AS WELL.
7 Q. OKAY. ON THE NIGHT THAT MOISES PASSED AWAY,
8 WHAT WERE YOU DOING AROUND 6:00 O'CLOCK?
9 A. AROUND 6:00 -- I THINK IT WAS AT THE QUINCEANERA
10 TIME, WHEN I WAS THERE.
11 Q. BEFORE YOU WENT TO THE QUINCEANERA, WHERE WERE
12 YOU?
13 A. OH, MY HOUSE WITH MY MOM.
14 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING AT THE HOUSE?
15 A. JUST IN MY ROOM.
16 Q. JUST HANGING OUT?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. AT WHAT POINT DID YOU LEAVE YOUR HOUSE?
19 A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT TIME IT WAS, BUT
20 MY SISTER CAME AND PICKED ME UP.
21 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: THE TIMING OF EVERYTHING
22 ON THAT NIGHT, IS IT CLEAR IN YOUR MEMORY?
23 A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE TIME EXACTLY.
24 Q. SO IF I POINT YOU TO A SPECIFIC TIME, LIKE A.M.
25 OR P.M., WOULD THAT BE HELPFUL OR NO?
26 A. A LITTLE BIT.
27 Q. A LITTLE BIT?
28 A. YEAH.
1901
1 Q. WOULD IT BE MORE HELPFUL IF I SAID MAYBE LIGHT

2 OUT OR DARK OUT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. AT THE TIME YOU WERE PICKED UP, WAS IT LIGHT OR
5 DARK?
6 A. IT WAS ALREADY, LIKE, TURNING TO DARK.
'
7 Q. IT WAS LIKE DUSK?
8 A. YEAH, DUSK.
9 Q. SO THIS IS SEPTEMBER, RIGHT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO A GOOD ESTIMATE MIGHT BE 7:30, 8:00?
12 A. AROUND THERE.
13 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHAT WAS YOUR SISTER DOING
14 WHILE YOU WERE HOME?
15 A. WHILE I WAS AT HOME?
16 Q. YEAH.
17 A. I KNOW THAT SHE WAS AT THE CARNE ASADA; SHE WAS
18 MAKING CARNE ASADA AT THE PARI(.
19 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?
20 A. BECAUSE WHEN THEY CAME AND PICKED ME UP, THEY
21 DROPPED OFF THE BARBECUE.
22 Q. THAT WAS WHEN THEY PICKED YOU UP?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. WHO WAS THERE WHEN YOU GOT PICKED UP?
25 A. IT WAS MY SISTER DRIVING AND THEN THERE WAS MY
26 COUSIN JENNY WITH HER FRIENDS. THERE WAS TWO OTHER GIRLS,
27 BUT I REALLY DON'T REMEMBER THOSE TWO GIRLS.
1902
1 A. AND JOSUE. HE WAS IN THE VAN WITH US.

2 Q. DID HE GET OUT OF THE VAN WHEN YOU WERE PICKED
3 UP?
4 A. NO.
5 Q. HE STAYED IN?
6 A. YEAH.
7 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO ONCE YOU GOT IN THE CAR WITH
8 YOUR SISTER AND JOSUE AND THE GIRLS?
9 A. WE DROVE TO THE QUINCEANERA.
10 Q. DID YOU DO ANYTHING BEFORE THAT?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. WHAT ABOUT -- SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
13 PROSECUTION 1 -- LET ME ASK YOU THIS: TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE,
14 WERE THERE ANY PLANS WITH MOISES THAT NIGHT BETWEEN YOU OR
15 WHO YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH?
16 A. NO. I DIDN'T SEE HIM THAT DAY.
17 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER LOOKING FOR HIM OR ANYTHING?
20 A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER.
21 Q. THIS HAPPENED, WHAT, TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU REMEMBER EVERY SINGLE
24 DETAIL THAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT?
25 A. NO, NOT REALLY.
26 Q. SO WHAT TIME DO YOU GET TO THE QUINCEANERA?
27 A. LIKE AROUND 8:00 OR, LIKE, 8:30 MAYBE.
28 Q. AGAIN, YOU'RE ESTIMATING?
1903
1 A. YEAH, ESTIMATING.
2 Q. WHEN DID YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS?
3 A. I DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAD BEEN
4 THERE AT THE QUINCEANERA, LIKE, FOR ABOUT AN HOUR OR AN
5 HOUR AND A HALF MAYBE.
6 Q. WHEN YOU WERE AT THE QUINCEANERA, DID ALL THE
7 PEOPLE IN THE VAN GO WITH YOU?
8 A. THE ONES IN THE VAN?
9 Q. YEAH, THE PEOPLE IN THE VAN, JENNIFER AND --
10 A. OH, YES.
11 Q. SO THEY WERE ALL THERE WITH YOU?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WERE YOU ALL DRESSED UP?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. WHY NOT?
16 A. BECAUSE IT WAS JUST, LIKE, A LITTLE INVITE. IT
17 WASN'T LIKE -- I DON'T KNOW -- LIKE ANOTHER FRIEND INVITED
18 us.
19 Q. DID YOU KNOW THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
20 A. IN THE QUINCEANERA?
21 Q. YEAH.
22 A. NO, NOT REALLY. I JUST SEEN A COUPLE FRIENDS
23 THERE, BUT I DIDN'T ACTUALLY KNOW, LIKE, THE QUINCEANERA.
24 Q. YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY KNOW THE QUINCEANERA?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. AND JUST TO ESTABLISH SOME FACTS: THE
27 QUINCEANERA IS THE PERSON WHO'S TURNING 15?
28 A. YES.
1904
1 Q. IT'S USUALLY A GIRL?

2 A. YEAH, IT'S A GIRL.
3 Q. IT'S LIKE THE EQUIVALENT OF A SWEET 16 PARTY?
4 A. YEAH, YEAH. LIKE THE MEXICAN TRADITION ONES,
5 YEAH.
6 Q. SO DO YOU REMEMBER WHERE YOU WERE AT WITHIN THE
7 QUINCEANERA? LET'S BACK UP. WHERE WAS THE QUINCEANERA?
8 WHAT PLACE?
9 A. IT WAS AT THE -- I THINK IT'S CALLED THE
10 NEIGHBORHOOD CENTER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I DON'T
11 REMEMBER.
12 Q. NEIGHBORHOOD SOMETHING OR OTHER?
13 A. YEAH, SOMETHING NEIGHBORHOOD CENTER. I CAN'T
14 REMEMBER.
15 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD OF SOMETHING CALLED THE REC
16 CENTER?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WAS IT THERE?
19 A. IT WAS NEXT TO IT.
20 Q. NEXT TO THE REC CENTER?
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. ON PROSECUTION 1, THIS BOARD HERE, WHERE WOULD
23 THE REC CENTER BE? AND FEEL FREE TO COME DOWN AND POINT
24 TO IT. I'LL TRY AND GET OUT OF THE WAY.
25 FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S DEPICTED
26 IN THAT TOP PICTURE?
27 A. THAT'S THE PARK.
28 Q. OCEAN VIEW PARK?
1905
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. WHERE'S THE REC CENTER?
3 A. (INDICATING.)
4 Q. YOU'RE POINTING TO THIS PARKING LOT AREA JUST TO
5 THE LEFT OF THE BIG BUSHY TREE ON PROSECUTION 1, ON THE
6 TOP RIGHT -- NORTH -- WHAT WOULD BE -- SORRY -- EAST OF
7 BOUNDARY STREET?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. ON THIS EXHIBIT, NORTH IS TO THE LEFT --
10 A. MM-HMM.
11 Q. -- RIGHT?
12 A. MM-HMM.
13 Q. SO THIS IS THE REC CENTER, THIS AREA
14 (INDICATING)?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE WOULD
17 BE?
18 A. IT WOULD BE, LIKE, AROUND RIGHT HERE
19 (INDICATING).
20 Q. OFF THE EXHIBIT?
21 A. YEAH, OFF THE EXHIBIT.
22 Q. SO WITH RELATION TO WHERE THE EXHIBIT TAG IS
23 PLACED, IT WOULD BE SORT OF UP AND TO THE LEFT?
24 A. YES, LIKE RIGHT HERE IN THE MIDDLE -- THE TOP,
25 IN THE MIDDLE.
26 Q. YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT.
27 DID YOU GO INSIDE THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE AT ANY
28 TIME?
1906
1 A. YES, FOR A WHILE.

2 Q. WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE? JUST DANCING?
3 A. JUST EVERYBODY WAS DANCING THERE AND, LIKE, IT
4 WAS -- IT WAS HOT, SO THAT'S WHY WE -- I STEPPED OUT, AND
5 I WAS OUTSIDE MOST OF THE TIME.
6 Q. WHO WERE YOU WITH WHEN YOU STEPPED OUTSIDE?
7 A. WITH JOSUE AND ALEX.
8 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED LUIS PAVA?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW HIM?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. WERE THERE ADDITIONAL PEOPLE OUTSIDE?
13 A. THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT THE ONES I WAS
14 NEXT TO WAS JOSUE AND ALEX.
15 Q. THOSE WERE THE PEOPLE YOU KNEW?
16 A. YEAH.
17 Q. AT WHAT POINT DID YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS?
18 A. LIKE I SAID, LIKE AN HOUR -- WHEN WE GOT THERE,
19 LIKE AROUND -- MAYBE AN HOUR AND A HALF OR TWO -- IN THE
20 QUINCEANERA.
21 Q. WHERE WERE YOU? WERE YOU INSIDE OR OUTSIDE?
22 A. OUTSIDE.
23 Q. WHO WAS WITH YOU WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS?
24 A. IT WAS JOSUE AND ALEX.
25 Q. AFTER YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, WHAT DID YOU DO?
26 A. WE JUST STAYED THERE,AND SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON.
27 THAT'S WHEN WE STARTED HEARING THE COPS AND THE AMBULANCE
28 AND EVERYTHING COMING AROUND.
1907
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED CARLOS?

2 A. CARLOS, YES.
3 Q. WHO Is THAT?
4 A. HE'S THE REC CENTER GUY.
5 Q. OKAY. WITH REGARD TO HIM, WAS HE AROUND?
6 A. I REALLY DON'T REMEMBER HIM, IF I SEEN HIM. I
7 DON'T REMEMBER.
8 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER SEEING HIM?
9 A. NO. I KNOW WHO HE IS, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER,
10 LIKE, SEEING HIM THAT NIGHT.
11 Q. DID YOU STAY TOGETHER THE WHOLE TIME OR DID YOU
12 GUYS SPLIT UP A LITTLE BIT AFTER THE SHOTS?
13 A. NO, WE STAYED TOGETHER.
14 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE THE QUINCEANERA?
15 A. IT WAS AROUND 11:00 OR 12:00.
16 Q. WHO PICKED YOU UP?
17 A. MY AUNT.
18 Q. WHY DID SHE HAVE TO PICK YOU UP?
19 A. BECAUSE THEY BLOCKED OFF THE WHOLE STREETS AND
20 WE COULDN'T GET OUT; WE COULDN'T TAKE OUT THE VAN.
21 Q. YOU HAD DRIVEN THE SAME VAN THAT WAS AT THE
22 CARNE ASADA?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND SO IT WAS BLOCKED INTO THE -- WAS THAT THE
25 NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. AND WHERE WERE YOU PICKED UP?
28 A. IT WAS RIGHT, LIKE, ON THE SAME STREET IN THE
1908
1 NEIGHBORHOOD, LIKE RIGHT IN FRONT OF IT. THAT'S WHERE MY

2 AUNT PICKED US UP.
3 Q. WHO DID SHE PICK UP?
4 A. SHE PICKED UP MY SISTER, MY COUSIN JENNY, HER
5 TWO FRIENDS AND JOSUE. AND THAT'S IT.
6 Q. WHERE DID YOU GUYS GO?
7 A. WE DROPPED OFF JOSUE AT HIS HOUSE, AND THEN WE
8 STAYED A LITTLE WHILE AT MY AUNT'S HOUSE WHILE
9 EVERYTHING -- THE STREETS HAD BEEN CLEARED OUT AND
10 EVERYTHING.
11 Q. AND DID YOU EVER MAKE IT HOME THAT NIGHT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. ABOUT WHAT TIME?
14 A. LIKE AROUND 2:00 IN THE MORNING, I THINK.
15 Q. WERE YOUR COUSINS STILL WITH YOU?
16 A. WHO?
17 Q. YOUR COUSINS.
18 A. YEAH. YEAH -- NO. MY COUSIN STAYED AT HER
19 HOUSE. MY AUNT DROPPED OFF ME AND MY SISTER AT OUR HOUSE.
20 Q. YOUR AUNT, THIS IS YOUR COUSIN'S
21 A. MOM, YEAH.
22 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, MR. MARTINEZ: YOUR FRIEND
23 WAS SHOT IN THE PARK, RIGHT, THAT NIGHT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. YOU FOUND OUT LATER?
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. YOU DIDN'T KNOW THEN?
28 A. NO, I DIDN'T KNOW.
1909
1 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE TO HELP OUT THE PERSON

2 WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOOTING YOUR FRIEND?
3 A. EXCUSE ME?
4 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE TO HELP OUT THE PERSON,
5 WHOEVER THAT IS, WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOOTING YOUR
6 FRIEND?
7 A. IF I'M WILLING TO HELP HIM?
8 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE TO HELP WHOEVER SHOT YOUR
9 FRIEND?
10 A. I DON'T KNOW -- WHAT'S HE, LIKE, TRYING TO SAY?
11 Q. I'M ASKING YOU A QUESTION, MR. MARTINEZ.
12 A. YES.
13 Q. ARE YOU UPSET ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR
14 FRIEND?
15 A. OH, YES.
16 Q. YOU'RE UPSET BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND GOT SHOT BY
17 SOMEBODY?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. YOU'RE NOT HAPPY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED?
20 A. NO, I'M NOT.
21 Q. THAT PERSON WHO IS RESPONSIBLE, WHOEVER IT MAY
22 BE, DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE AT ALL TO HELP THAT PERSON?
23 A. NO.
28 \\
1910
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. MR. MARTINEZ, YOUR BROTHER CHRISTIAN, YOU TALKED
4 TO HIM LATER THAT NIGHT, DID YOU NOT?
5 A. LATER THAT NIGHT, NO. IT WAS THE NEXT DAY.
6 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO THE POLICE BACK IN
7 OCTOBER OF 2008, A MONTH AFTER THIS?
8 A. OH, YES.
9 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IF I
10 WERE TO SHOW YOU A STATEMENT THAT YOU MADE AT THAT TIME
11 SPECIFICALLY ABOUT TALKING TO YOUR BROTHER CHRISTIAN?
12 WOULD IT HELP?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. OKAY. START HERE (INDICATING) AND THEN READ
15 THIS PARAGRAPH. READ BOTH OF THEM TO YOURSELF, AND LET ME
16 KNOW WHEN YOU'RE DONE.
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: COUNSEL, WHAT ARE YOU SHOWING THE
\
18 WITNESS?
19 MR. TROCHA: DISCOVERY PAGE 370.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU KNOW WHAT PARAGRAPH?
21 MR. TROCHA: THE TOP TWO PARAGRAPHS.
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. GOT IT?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. AFTER LOOKING AT THAT, IS YOUR MEMORY REFRESHED
27 AS TO WHEN YOU SPOKE WITH CHRISTIAN?
28 A. YES.
1911
1 Q. IT WAS LATER THAT NIGHT?

2 A. YES, IT WAS LATER THAT NIGHT.
3 Q. AND YOU TOLD US ON -- WHEN THIS ATTORNEY WAS
4 ASKING YOU QUESTIONS, THAT YOU FOUND OUT YOUR FRIEND
5 MOISES WAS SHOT IN THE PARK.
6 A. MM-HMM.
8 A. YES.
9 Q. SHE'S GOT TO WRITE IT DOWN.
10 A. OH, YES.
11 Q. YOU FOUND THAT OUT FROM YOUR BROTHER CHRISTIAN
12 THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. HE TOLD YOU, "YOUR FRIEND GOT SHOT, THE ONE
15 YOU IRE ALWAYS WITH' II CORRECT?
16 A. YES. I WASN'T, LIKE -- I DON'T HANG AROUND THAT
17 MUCH. JUST IN SCHOOL.
18 Q. BUT YOUR BROTHER CHRISTIAN TOLD YOU THIS THAT
19 NIGHT?
20 A. YEAH.
23
26 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT TIME OF NIGHT THAT
27 CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE?
28 A. IT WAS, LIKE, AROUND 2:30.
1912
1 Q. LIKE HOURS AFTER?

2 A. IT WAS, I THINK, YEAH, LIKE AROUND 3:00 IN THE
3 MORNING WHEN HE CAME BY.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
5 MR. TROCHA: JUST A COUPLE.
6
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. DID YOU SAY WHEN HE CAME BACK?
10 A. NO, WHEN HE CAME BY.
11 Q. WHEN HE CAME BY YOUR HOUSE?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. SO HE KNEW MOISES WAS DEAD BEFORE YOU DID?
14 A. I THINK SO.
18 MR. TROCHA: YES.
20 THE COURT: MR. MARTINEZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
21 COURT. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE
22 DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON IN COURT WITH ANYBODY EXCEPT
23 INVESTIGATORS UNTIL THIS TRAIL IS OVER, OKAY?
25 THE COURT: GOOD DAY TO YOU,
..
SIR .
26 THE WITNESS: GOOD DAY.
1913

2 DEFENSE CALLS ALEXIS LOPEZ.
3
4 ALEXIS LOPEZ.
7
8 THE WITNESS: YES.
10 WITNESS STAND.
15 THE WITNESS: ALEXIS, L-0-P-E-Z.
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. JUST GIVE
20 ME ONE SECOND.
23
26 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. LOPEZ.
28 Q. WITHOUT TELLING US YOUR ADDRESS, AROUND WHERE DO
1914
1 YOU LIVE, WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD?

2 A. OCEAN VIEW. LIKE THE GANG NEIGHBORHOOD OR
3 Q. IS IT CALLED SHELLTOWN?
4 A. YEAH.
5 Q. IT'S OKAY, YOU CAN SAY WHAT IT'S CALLED.
6 A. IT'S SHELLTOWN.
8 A. YEAH. HE WAS MY BEST FRIEND.
9 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE NIGHT HE PASSED AWAY?
10 A. YES, I DO REMEMBER. ,
11 Q. YOU SAY HE WAS YOUR BEST FRIEND?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
14 A. WE GREW UP TOGETHER. HE USED TO BE A NEIGHBOR.
15 ME AND HIS FAMILY WERE, LIKE, REALLY CLOSE.
16 Q. SO THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU EVEN REALLY
17 WANT TO TALK ABOUT ANYMORE?
18 A. I REALLY DON'T.
19 Q. THE NIGHT HE GOT SHOT, DID YOU SEE HIM THAT
20 NIGHT?
21 A. YEAH, I SAW HIM THAT NIGHT.
23 A. APPROXIMATELY, LIKE, AROUND 8:30.
24 Q. WHERE WAS HE?
25 A. HE WAS IN THE PARK.
26 Q. WHAT PARK?
28 Q. DO YOU SEE PROSECUTION 1, THIS BLOWUP?
1915
1 A. YEAH. HE WAS IN THE TOP ONE.

2 Q. THIS PARI<?
3 A. NO, TO THE RIGHT.
4 Q. HE WAS IN THIS PARK (INDICATING).
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. AROUND 8:30?
7 A. AROUND 8:30.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET THE RECORD REFLECT I'M
9 REFERRING TO THE SOUTH PARK AT THE TOP.
10 THE COURT: YES.
12 Q. WHEREABOUTS IN THE SOUTH PARK WAS HE LOCATED?
13 A. NEXT TO THE TENNIS COURTS.
14 Q. TO THE RIGHT OR TO THE LEFT?
15 A. TO THE RIGHT.
16 Q. SO RIGHT ABOUT HERE (INDICATING)?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHO WAS HE WITH?
19 A. SOME PEOPLE. I DON'T RECALL WHO THEY ARE. IT
20 WAS DARK. I DON'T KNOW.
21 Q. DID YOU TALK TO HIM?
22 A. YES, I TALKED TO HIM.
23 Q. HE HAD A BIKE, DID HE NOT?
24 A. YES, HE HAD A BICYCLE.
25 Q. WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT BIKE?
26 A. I BORROWED IT BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO A PARTY AND
27 I NEEDED SOMETHING TO GO HOME WITH, LIKE, SO I COULD
28 CHANGE BEFORE GOING TO THE PARTY.
1916
1 Q. WHAT PARTY WERE YOU GOING TO?

2 A. IT'S A QUINCEANERA RIGHT NEXT TO THE PARK.
3 THERE'S A HALL NEXT TO THE RECREATIONAL FACILITY.
4 Q. WHY DON'T YOU STEP OFF THE WITNESS STAND AND
5 SHOW US WHERE THE PARTY WAS AT.
6 A. THE PARTY WAS -- IT MUST BE, LIKE, RIGHT HERE
'
7 (INDICATING).
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE WITNESS
9 IS POINTING OFF THE EXHIBIT, JUST OVER THE EXHIBIT TAB.
10 THE COURT: YES, IT WILL SO REFLECT.
12 Q. STAY DOWN THERE FOR A MINUTE, MR. LOPEZ.
13 WHAT IS LOCATED TO THE LEFT OF WHERE THE PARTY
14 IS AT?
15 A. THIS (INDICATING)?
16 Q. NO, ON THE STREET.
17 A. OH, THE REACTIONAL FACILITY.
18 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
19 A. A RECREATIONAL CENTER.
20 Q. A REC CENTER?
21 A. YEAH, REC CENTER.
22 Q. OKAY. HAVE A SEAT.
23 TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHO RAN THAT REC CENTER?
24 A. CARLOS RIOS.
25 Q. IN 2008?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR ROLE AT THE REC CENTER?
28 A. I WOULD JUST, LIKE, SOMETIMES GO IN THERE, HELP
1917
1 OUT. JUST AN ORDINARY DAY THERE, JUST NORMAL.

2 Q. YOU'D VOLUNTEER?
3 A. YEAH, SOMETIMES I WOULD VOLUNTEER.
4 Q. YOU DIDN'T GET PAID?
5 A. NO, I DIDN'T GET PAID.
6 Q. WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE THAT DID THIS WITH YOU?
7 A. YEAH, A CLOSE FRIEND OF MINE.
8 Q. WAS THAT LUIS PAVA?
9 A. LUIS PAVA, YES.
10 Q. SO YOU AND LUIS USED,TO VOLUNTEER AT THE REC
11 CENTER?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. DID YOU WORK CLOSELY WITH MR. RIOS?
14 A. YEAH. HE USUALLY WOULD TOLD ME JUST TO CLEAN
15 THE BATHROOMS, FLUSH THE TOILETS, STUFF LIKE THAT, AND I
16 WOULD FOLLOW AS HE SAID.
17 Q. SO YOU'D SEE HIM ON A REGULAR BASIS?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. WHEN YOU'RE AT THE QUINCEANERA, THAT'S WHEN
20 SOMETHING HAPPENED, RIGHT?
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. WHAT HAPPENED?
23 A. THAT'S WHEN I HAD JUST ARRIVED TO THE
24 QUINCEANERA AFTER COMING FROM MY HOUSE WITH MOISES' BIKE,
25 AND THAT'S WHEN I HEARD A FEW SHOTS FIRED.
26 Q. GUNSHOTS?
27 A. YEAH, GUNSHOTS.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED JOSUE GUTIERREZ?
1918
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHO Is THAT?
3 A. IT'S A FRIEND OF MINE FROM SCHOOL.
4 Q. WITH REGARD TO THE GUNSHOTS TIME-WISE AND
5 POSITION-WISE, WHERE WAS MR. GUTIERREZ?
6 A. HE WAS NEXT TO ME.
7 Q. HE WAS STANDING NEXT TO YOU?
8 A. YEAH, WITH A GROUP OF OTHER FRIENDS.
9 Q. YOU WERE AT THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE, RIGHT?
10 A. WE WERE AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE.
11 Q. WERE YOU NEAR THE REC CENTER?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. THEY SHARE A BORDER?
14 A. PRETTY MUCH, YES.
15 Q. WITH RESPECT TO MR. RIOS, WAS HE THERE?
16 A. WAS HE THERE? YES, HE WAS THERE.
17 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
18 A. I DO NOT RECALL.
19 Q. IT IS LIKE TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO.
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. SO WHO ELSE WAS AT THE QUINCEANERA WHEN YOU WERE
22 THERE?
23 A. RONALD WAS THERE.
24 Q. RONALD WHO?
25 A. RONALD MARTINEZ.
26 Q. OKAY. WHAT DOES HE LOOK LIKE?
27 A. HE'S PRETTY BIG. HE'S BIG, LONG HAIR.
28 Q. WHO ELSE?
1919
1 A. HIS SISTER.
2 Q. WHERE WAS SHE, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
3 A. SHE WAS INSIDE THE HALL PARTY.
4 Q. SHE WAS NOT OUTSIDE AT THE TIME?
5 A. NO, SHE WASN'T.
6 Q. WAS RONALD INSIDE OR OUTSIDE?
'
7 A. HE WAS -- DURING THE SHOTS HE WAS OUTSIDE
8 BECAUSE WE WERE ALL OUTSIDE.
9 Q. RONALD WAS?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. EVERYBODY EXCEPT CAROL?
12 A. I REMEMBER, YEAH.
13 Q. DID YOU KNOW CAROL'S COUSINS?
15 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY GIRLS THERE THAT YOU KNEW
16 BESIDES CAROL?
17 A. JUST HER, BESIDES HER.
18 Q. AFTER THE GUNSHOTS WENT OFF, WHAT DID YOU DO?
19 A. WE STAYED IN THE PARTY UNTIL MOISES' PARENTS
20 CALLED ME AND ASKED FOR HIM, WHERE WAS HE AT, LIKE, IF I
21 SEEN HIM. AND I TOLD THEM I HAD SEEN HIM 30 MINUTES
22 BEFORE THE SHOTS WERE FIRED, 45 MINUTES.
23 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU DO BASED ON THAT?
24 A. I TOLD THEM I DIDN'T HAVE NO IDEA WHERE HE WAS
25 AT AND STAYED AT THE PARTY.
26 Q. WHEN DID YOU LEAVE THE PARTY?
27 A. MY MOM CALLED ME, LIKE, AROUND 10:30 AND TOLD ME
28 TO GET HOME, SO I TOOK MOISES' BIKE. MY HOUSE IS DOWN THE
1920
1 HILL, SO I JUST TOOK IT DOWN, AND THAT'S WHAT I SAW

2 MOISES' PARENTS THERE, AND I'M, LIKE, "OH, HERE'S HIS
3 BIKE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE'S AT."
4 Q. THAT'S WHEN YOU FOUND OUT?
5 A. NO. I FOUND OUT THE NEXT DAY. I GUESS THE
6 INVESTIGATORS HAD GONE TO MY HOUSE, LIKE, DURING THE --
7 LIKE IN THE MORNING-MORNING, LIKE AROUND 4:00 OR 3:00 IN
8 THE MORNING, AND MY MOM SAID I WAS ASLEEP.
9 AND THE NEXT DAY -- I STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHAT
10 HAPPENED UNTIL THE NEXT DAY. MY MOM TOLD ME THAT HE HAD
11 BEEN SHOT. I THOUGHT HE WAS ALIVE. FOR LIKE AT LEAST
12 EIGHT HOURS I THOUGHT HE WAS AT THE HOSPITAL.
13 AND WHEN I GOT HOME, I SAW A LOT OF PEOPLE
14 CROWDED IN HIS HOUSE -- THIS WAS LIKE AROUND 4:00 OR
15 5:00 -- AND I ASKED THEM WAS MOISES OKAY, AND THEY'RE,
16 LIKE, "HE DIDN'T MAKE IT," AND THAT'S WHEN I FOUND OUT HE
17 DIED.
18 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY NAMED ANDRES LOPEZ.
19 DO YOU KNOW HIM?
20 A. I DO NOT RECALL HIM.
21 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING
.. TO MY INVESTIGATOR ABOUT
22 ANDRES BACK ON JUNE gth, 2010?
23 A. WE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF STUFF, BUT, LIKE I
24 SAID, IT'S BEEN AWFULLY LONG AND I DON'T REMEMBER.
25 Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: YOU'RE UPSET ABOUT
26 WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FRIEND, RIGHT?
27 A. YEAH, CLEARLY, YES.
28 Q. DO YOU WANT TO HELP OUT WHOEVER'S RESPONSIBLE
1921
1 FOR HIS DEATH?

2 A. I WOULD -- YEAH, I WOULD
.. LIKE THAT, BUT I DON'T
3 WANT ANY MORE --
4 Q. LET ME CLARIFY. YOU'D LIKE THAT PERSON TO BE
5 CAUGHT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND PUNISHED?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE TO HELP THAT PERSON --
10 A. OH, OF COURSE NOT.
11 Q. -- WHOEVER THAT IS, DO YOU HAVE ANY DESIRE TO
12 HELP THAT PERSON?
13 A. OF COURSE NOT.
..
18
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
21 Q. MR. LOPEZ, WHERE DID YOU MEET MOISES TO GET HIS
22 BIKE?
23 A. WHERE I HAD POINTED FIRST, NEXT TO THE TENNIS
24 COURTS.
25 Q. JUST DOWN BY THE ONLV TENNIS COURTS THAT ARE IN
26 THE PICTURE?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM SEEING HIM THERE?
1922
1 A. NO, NO PROBLEM.
2 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW IT WAS MOISES?
3 A. BECAUSE WE WERE COMING DOWN FROM MY FRIEND'S
4 HOUSE BECAUSE THEY HAD A BARBECUE OR SOMETHING, AND I WAS
5 SUPPOSED TO ATTEND BECAUSE I'M CLOSE TO EVERYBODY FROM
'
6 THERE, AND I DIDN'T. I WAS OVER AT MY OTHER FRIEND'S
7 HOUSE.
8 AND WE WERE PASSING BY AND HE WAS DROPPING ME
9 OFF. HE HAD LIKE PEGS ON THE BIKE, SO WE WERE WALKING
10 DOWN THE STREET ON THE BIKE, AND I NOTICED HIM, SO, YOU
11 KNOW, "WHAT'S UP?"
12 Q. SO YOU WEREN'T EVEN LOOKING FOR HIM AND YOU
13 FOUND HIM?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. WHO WAS HE WITH?
17 Q. WAS HE WITH SOME PEOPLE?
18 A. YEAH, HE WAS WITH PEOPLE.
19 Q. MEN OR WOMEN?
20 A. MEN.
21 Q. ANY PEOPLE YOU'D EVER SEEN BEFORE?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THESE PEOPLE?
24 A. TALL. IT WAS DARK. THERE WAS NO LIGHT AROUND.
25 THE ONLY PERSON I RECOGNIZED WAS MOISES DUE TO HIS HEIGHT.
26 HE WASN'T A VERY TALL PERSON, SO I -- OBVIOUSLY I KNOW WHO
27 HE WAS.
28 Q. WERE THEY YOUNGER OR OLDER?
'
1923
1 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO

2 THEM.
3 Q. YOU ASKED MOISES AT THAT TIME IF HE WAS GOING TO
4 THE "QUINCEA," RIGHT?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. HE TOLD YOU HE WASN'T?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. INSTEAD HE WAS GOING TO HANG OUT IN THE PARK,
9 RIGHT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. SO HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY PLANS TO GO TO THE
12 QUINCEANERA?
13 A. MM-HMM.
14 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. SHE'S WRITING IT DOWN.
17 A. I'M SORRY.
18 Q. THAT'S WHY HE LET YOU BORROW HIS BIKE --
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. -- SO YOU COULD GO GET READY?
21 A. YEAH, EXACTLY.
22 Q. YOU GUYS WERE CLOSE FRIENDS?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. AND YOU LEFT THE PARK, AND JOSUE WAS ALREADY AT
25 THE QUINCEANERA?
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. YET MOISES WAS IN THE PARK WHEN YOU LEFT HIM?
28 A. YES.
1924
1 Q. HE WASN'T -- JOSUE WASN'T OUT LOOKING FOR MOISES

2 OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
3 A. I DON'T KNOW. WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT THAT.
4 Q. HE DIDN'T MENTION THAT HE COULDN'T FIND MOISES?
5 A. NO. THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE. EVERYBODY
6 CARRIED ON THEIR OWN CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW.
7 Q. THIS GUY'S A FRIEND OF YOURS, RIGHT?
8 A. WHO?
9 Q. JOSUE.
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. IS HE A GANG MEMBER?
12 A. YES, HE IS.
13 Q. HE IS. HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S A GANG MEMBER?
14 A. HOW DO YOU -- WELL, 'EVERYBODY -- WELL, HE'S MY
15 FRIEND, OF COURSE I'M GOING TO KNOW.
16 Q. YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOUR FRIENDS ARE GANG MEMBERS,
17 RIGHT?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAS ANY GANG TATTOOS?
20 A. I DON'T KNOW. I'D RATHER NOT LOOK ANYWAY.
21 Q. UNDERSTANDABLE. HOW LONG HAS HE BEEN A GANG
22 MEMBER?
23 A. I DON'T KNOW.
24 Q. AS LONG AS YOU'VE KNOWN HIM?
25 A. WELL, WE REALLY WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT THAT STUFF.
26 HE WAS PRETTY MUCH A SOCCER PLAYER, AND I, LIKE -- YOU
27 KNOW, AT THE PARK WE USED TO PLAY SOMETIMES, BUT --
28 EVERYBODY WOULD GET TOGETHER AND PLAY SOCCER, SO --
1925
1 Q. WAS HE A GANG MEMBER WHEN YOU KNEW HIM IN HIGH

2 SCHOOL?
4 Q. WAS HE A GANG MEMBER WHEN MOISES WAS KILLED?
5 A. YEAH, I THINK SO.
..
6 Q. YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER?
7 A. NO, I'M NOT.
8 Q. YOU VOLUNTEER AT THE REC CENTER?
9 A. YEAH.
10 Q. YOU SEE A LOT OF GANG MEMBERS THOUGH HANGING
11 AROUND THERE, RIGHT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A GANG MEMBER NAMED
14 SPEEDY?
15 A. NO, I HAVEN'T. I'VE HEARD OF HIM, BUT I DON'T
16 KNOW HIM.
17 Q. YOU HAVE? YOU'VE NEVER MET HIM THOUGH?
18 A. HE HAS SOME C.D.'S. I THINK HE WAS A SINGER,
19 so --
20 Q. HAVE YOU HEARD ANY OF THOSE CD'S?
21 A. I ACTUALLY HAVEN'T.
27 THE COURT: MR. LOPEZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT.
28 YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE DON'T
1926
1 TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON IN COURT WITH ANYBODY EXCEPT THE

2 INVESTIGATORS OR OF COURSE THE LAWYERS UNTIL THE TRIAL'S
3 OVER, OKAY?
4 THE WITNESS: IS THERE ANY WAY YOU COULD SIGN MY
5 SUBPOENA TO TELL MY SCHOOL I WAS HERE?
6 THE COURT: WE'LL HAVE THE BAILIFF GIVE IT TO THE
7 CLERK AND WE'LL GET IT DONE FOR YOU, YES, SIR. HAND THAT
8 TO THE BAILIFF. GOOD QUESTION, AND THANK YOU.
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK 'YOU. THE DEFENSE IS GOING
11 TO RECALL JOSUE GUTIERREZ.
12 THE COURT: YOU MAY. MR. GUTIERREZ WAS SWORN WHEN HE
13 TESTIFIED LAST TIME UNDER THE SAME OATH.
14 GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. GUTIERREZ. RIGHT UP HERE IF
15 YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
16 I THINK WE MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT COURT REPORTER
17 TODAY -- I'M NOT SURE -- SO STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND SPELL
18 THEM BOTH FOR THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
19 THE WITNESS: JOSUE GUTIERREZ, J-0-S-U-E,
20 G-U-T-I-E-R-R-E-Z.
21 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU ARE UNDER THAT SAME OATH
22 THAT YOU TOOK THE OTHER DAY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
24 THE COURT: OKAY.
25
26 \\
27 \\
28 \\
1927
1 JOSUE GUTIERREZ,
2 RECALLED ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY
3 DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
4
7 Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, WELCOME BACK. YOU WERE HERE A
8 COUPLE WEEKS AGO
9 A. YEAH.
10 Q. -- REMEMBER?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. A COUPLE WEEKS AGO I WAS ASKING YOU -- YOU KIND
13 OF ALREADY TOLD US WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, SO LET ME
14 SKIP THAT. I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT A LETTER --
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. -- THAT YOU WROTE.
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR -- ACTUALLY, DO YOU
18 HAVE THE FULL PICTURE? REMEMBER WE LOOKED AT THAT COUPLE
19 OF DAYS AGO?
20 THE COURT: I KNOW THAT WE LOOKED AT IT. I DON'T
21 REMEMBER IF I PUT IT BACK DOWN THERE. LET ME LOOK.
22 THE CLERK: THOSE ARE DEFENSE EXHIBITS?
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DEFENSE EXHIBITS.
24 THE COURT: LET ME MAKE SURE I DIDN'T STICK IT UNDER
~
25 MY PAD HERE.
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I KNOW YOU WERE THE LAST ONE THAT
27 HAD IT.
28 THE COURT: I REMEMBER HANDLING IT.
1928

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'VE GOT IT. MY FAULT.
3 THE COURT: NO PROBLEM.
4 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT TT WAS MARKED
7 Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, SHOWING YOU DEFENSE TT, DO YOU
8 RECOGNIZE WHAT THAT IS A PHOTO OF?
9 A. YEAH.
10 Q. WHAT IS IT?
11 A. A POSTER WE WERE SIGNING FOR MOISES AT SCHOOL.
13 A. POINT LOMA HIGH SCHOOL.
14 Q. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS?
15 A. BECAUSE WE WERE GOING TO HANG IT OR GIVE IT TO
16 THE FAMILY.
17 Q. DID YOU WRITE A MESSAGE ON IT?
'
18 A. YEAH, I DID.
19 Q. SHOWING YOU DEFENSE Y, WHAT IS THAT?
20 A. THE MESSAGE I WROTE.
21 Q. THAT'S THE MESSAGE YOU WROTE?
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. TO?
24 A. MOISES.
25 Q. YOU WERE WRITING TO YOUR FRIEND WHO PASSED AWAY?
26 A. YEAH.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AT THIS TIME I'D LIKE TO READ THE
28 NOTE.
1929
1 THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION, MR. TROCHA?

2 MR. TROCHA: NONE, YOUR HONOR.
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY READ IT SLOWLY FOR
4 THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: uMOISES, I STILL REMEMBER THAT
6 NIGHT LIKE IT WAS TODAY. WE WERE MUNCHING ON CARNE ASADA
7 THAT WE GOT FROM NORTH GATE. u
9 Q. WHAT'S THAT (INDICATfNG)?
10 A. HLOL. II
11 Q. 11
LOL. WE'RE GOING TO" -- HWE WERE GOING TO GO
12 TO THE PARTY RIGHT AFTER BUT HAD TO GO DROP OFF OUR
13 THINGS, AND YOU DECIDED TO STAY AT THE PARK AND WAIT FOR
14 US. DAMN.
15 "WHEN I CAME BACK, YOU WERE GONE, AND I LOOKED
16 ALL OVER FOR YOU, BUT WE [SIC] WERE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
17 WHEN I HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, I NEVER WOULD HAVE IMAGINED IT
18 WAS YOU GETTING SHOT. DAMN, I'M REALLY GOING TO MISS YOU,
19 FOOL. I'M GOING TO MISS THOSE TIMES AFTER SCHOOL CHILLING
20 AT THE PARK WITH THE LITTLE FRIENDS AND STUFF .
..
21 .. WELL, I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY BUT
22 TO LOOK OUT FOR ME, RAUL, ISHMAEL AND ALEXIS FROM UP WHERE
23 YOU AT. JOSUE GUTIERREZ."
24 DID YOU WRITE THAT?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. WHAT'S HLOL"?
27 A. "LAUGH OUT LOUD."
28 Q. IS THAT KIND OF LIKE CHAT LINGO?
1930
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. THAT WAS A MEMORIAL THAT YOU WROTE HOW LONG
3 AFTER MOISES PASSED?
4 A. LIKE ABOUT A FEW DAYS, THREE DAYS, FOUR DAYS.
5 Q. THREE OR FOUR DAYS?
6 A. YEAH.
7 Q. JOSUE
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ACTUALLY, YOUR HONOR, AT THIS TIME
9 I'M GOING TO PLAY THE AUDIO OF AN INTERVIEW WITH THE
10 POLICE WITH MR. GUTIERREZ AS WELL AS A PRIOR
11 INCONSISTENT -- I HAVE TRANSCRIPTS AND THE EXHIBIT.
13 MR. TROCHA: I WOULD OBJE~T AND ASK FOR A SIDEBAR.
14 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S
15 PUT THE SIDEBAR RULE IN EFFECT, PLEASE. WE'LL BE OFF THE
16 RECORD FOR JUST A MOMENT.
18 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I THINK I NEED TO
19 CONDUCT A LITTLE LEGAL ARGUMENT ON THE RECORD HERE. I
20 APOLOGIZE FOR THE INTERRUPTION. LET'S TAKE A 15-MINUTE
21 RECESS AND PLAN ON RECONVENING AT A QUARTER BEFORE THE
22 HOUR OF 3:00. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. STRETCH
23 YOUR LEGS, GET SOME OXYGEN.
24 MR. GUTIERREZ, I'LL ASK THAT YOU STEP DOWN,
'
25 PLEASE, AND STEP OUTSIDE, AND YOU'RE SUBJECT TO RECALL.
26 THANK YOU.
28 \\
1931

3 THE COURT: THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT THE JURORS
4 HAVE LEFT THE COURTROOM. THE PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN
5 THE COURTROOM. THIS IS AN OBJECTION THAT WE NEED TO
6 ARGUE, I THINK, ON THE RECORD.'
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI FOR THE DEFENSE PROPOSES TO
8 PLAY THE ENTIRETY OF AN AUDIO-TAPED STATEMENT OF
9 MR. JOSUE GUTIERREZ THAT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WAS GIVEN TO
10 THE POLICE ON SEPTEMBER 17th, 2008.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, WHY DON'T YOU GIVE ME A
12 PROFFER, PLEASE, OF WHAT YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE AND WHY
13 IT'S ADMISSIBLE.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: ESSENTIALLY IT'S HIS INTERVIEW
15 WITH THE POLICE WHERE HE TELLS THE CHRONOLOGY OF THE
16 EVENTS OF THE NIGHT IN QUESTION, AND IT'S SUBSTANTIALLY
17 SIMILAR TO HIS TESTIMONY AND WHAT OTHER WITNESSES,
'
18 INCLUDING CARLOS RIOS, HAS CORROBORATED.
19 IT IS -- IT ANTEDATES, AS REQUIRED BY THE CODE,
20 ANY STATEMENT THAT WAS PURPORTEDLY MADE BY HIM TO
21 GLENNYS BERUMAN, WHICH IS THE BASIS FOR THE PRIOR
22 CONSISTENT STATEMENT FOUNDATION.
23 ESSENTIALLY MS. BERUMAN SAID A NUMBER OF
24 DIFFERENT DATES RANGING FROM THE DAY AFTER THE SHOOTING
25 WHEN SHE LATER ADMITTED THAT WASN'T POSSIBLE TO 30 DAYS
26 AFTER THE SHOOTING, AND THEN WHEN SHE WAS INTERVIEWED BY
27 POLICE, SHE TOLD THEM IT WAS A FEW MONTHS BEFORE THE
28 INTERVIEW, WHICH WOULD HAVE PUT IT SOMEWHERE IN THE SUMMER
1932
1 OF 2010, ABOUT 18 MONTHS AFTER THE SHOOTING. SO IT

2 CERTAINLY ANTEDATES HIS PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT THAT
3 THE PROSECUTION HAS PUT ON.
4 THE COURT: AND WHAT DOES HE SAY IN THE STATEMENT
5 THAT YOU PROFFER THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH MS. BERUMAN'S
6 TESTIMONY?
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE SAYS HE WAS AT THE QUINCEANERA,
8 HE WASN'T AT THE SHOOTING.
9 THE COURT: OKAY. WHERE DOES HE SAY THAT?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME FIND -- THANK YOU.
12 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. SO FIRST HE'S AT HOME
13 PLAYING SOCCER. IT GOES ON FOR -- HE GOES TO THE CARNE
14 ASADA, WHICH IS AROUND 5:40. THEY PUT EVERYTHING INTO THE
15 CAR, GO TO THE HOUSE. I'M ON PAGE 7 -- HERE WE ARE ON
16 PAGE 7:
17 "YEAH, SO HE DROPPED OFF HIS FRIEND, WENT TO THE
18 QUINCEANERA. WE'RE, LIKE, 'WHERE'S MOISES?' HE'S,
19 LIKE -- AND ALEX IS, LIKE, 'I DON'T KNOW. I THOUGHT HE
20 WAS GOING TO BE WITH YOU GUYS.' YEAH, BUT HE SAID HE WAS
..
21 GOING TO STAY HERE AND THEN JUST GO OVER THERE, SO WE'RE,
22 LIKE" --
23 THE COURT REPORTER: CAN YOU SLOW DOWN JUST A LITTLE
24 BIT, PLEASE.
26 "WE WEREN'T EVEN WORRYING ABOUT. WE'RE, LIKE,
~
27 'HE'S PROBABLY GOING TO COME BACK LATER OR SOMETHING.' WE
28 STAYED THERE AND WE WENT INSIDE THE QUINCEANERA, AND THEN
1933
1 RONALD, ME, ALEXIS AND LUIS STAYED OUTSIDE JUST WAITING IN

~
2 CASE HE SHOWED UP, OR, LIKE, WAITING FOR HIM RIGHT THERE.
3 HE DIDN'T SHOW UP. IT --
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "IT WAS ALREADY LIKE 9:00, AND
6 WE'RE, LIKE, 'WHAT HAPPENED?' IT WAS ALREADY DARK. THEN
7 WE WERE JUST DRINKING SODA, NOT BEER."
8 MOVING ON TO THE NEXT STATEMENT: "WE STILL SEEN
9 THE COPS RIGHT THERE ON THE CORNER, LIKE, WHERE, LIKE,
10 SOMETHING IS GOING TO GO ON. LIKE, WE'RE JUST WONDERING,
11 YOU KNOW. RONALD HAD A FEELING. HE WAS, LIKE, 'I DON'T
12 KNOW. I JUST DON'T FEEL SAFE, LIKE, THAT'S WHAT" --
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: "JUST LIKE" -- I'M GOING TO
15 SKIP --
16 TOP OF PAGE 8: "AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HEAR THE
17 GUNSHOTS, LIKE, WE -- AND THEN WE'RE LIKE -- LIKE WE JUST,
18 LIKE, STAYED QUIET FOR, LIKE, A FEW SECONDS, AND THEN WE
19 RAN TO THE PARK, LIKE, THE ONE RIGHT THERE WHERE WE WERE
20 AT, AND THEN WE SEEN SOME GUY NAMED CARLOS FROM THE REC
21 CENTER, AND HE GOT OUT OF HIS CAR AND WAS, LIKE, 'WAS THAT
22 WHAT I THINK IT WAS?'
23 II AND WE WERE' LIKE' I I DON IT KNOW. I WE WERE'
24 LIKE HE WAS, LIKE, 'I THINK IT WAS SOME GUNSHOTS.'
25 I'M, LIKE -- AND WE'RE, LIKE, 'YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WE
26 HEARD.' WE WERE JUST RIGHT THERE OUTSIDE THE REC CENTER.
27 "THEN WE SEEN THE COPS RIGHT THERE. IT WAS
28 RIGHT THERE IN THE REC CENTER. 'JUST GO OVER THERE TO
1934
1 WHERE YOU HEARD THEM,' AND THE OTHER COP TOO, SO IT WAS
2 RIGHT THERE JUST, LIKE, 'WHAT HAPPENED?' AND THEN WE SEEN
3 A LOT OF COPS AND THE CAR SPEEDING UP FROM THERE, SPEEDING
4 UP. IT WAS A GRAY HONDA."
5 THEN HE GOES ON.
6 THE COURT: WHICH, BY THE WAY, MR. RIOS DID NOT CALL
7 IT A GRAY HONDA, HE CALLED IT A SMALL GRAY TWO-DOOR CAR.
8 YOU REFERRED TO IT AS A GRAY HONDA IN YOUR QUESTIONING OF
9 HIM, BUT THAT'S NEITHER HERE NOR THERE.
10 SO YOUR STATEMENT IS THAT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE
11 STATEMENT IS INCONSISTENT WITH HIS TELLING MS. BERUMAN
12 THAT "I WAS THERE AND I SAW THE SHOOTING"?
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO, IT'S CONSISTENT WITH HIS
14 CURRENT TESTIMONY.
15 THE COURT: RIGHT.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S A REHABILITATION. I MEAN,
17 YES, IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT BERUMAN SAID, BUT THAT'S
18 NOT THE ISSUE. THE ISSUE IS IS IT CONSISTENT WITH HIS
19 CURRENT TESTIMONY, WHICH IT IS, AND IT WAS MADE PRIOR TO
20 HIS STATEMENT TO HER, SO IT'S PROPER REHABILITATION.
21 THE COURT: AT SIDEBAR MR. TROCHA MENTIONED THE FACT
22 THAT HE MADE A SIMILAR STATEMENT TO MS. MARTINEZ; THAT IS,
23 THAT --
24 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CAROL?
25 THE COURT: CAROL. WHEN I SAY A "SIMILAR STATEMENT,"
26 I MEAN, ONE THAT WOULD PUT HIM AT THE SHOOTING, IF
27 BELIEVED, AND HE MADE THAT BEFORE HE MADE THIS STATEMENT
28 THAT YOU SEEK TO INTRODUCE. If THAT IS TRUE, THE
1935
1 STATEMENT YOU SEEK TO INTRODUCE IS NOT ADMISSIBLE,

2 CORRECT?
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, THAT'S A MULTI-TIERED
4 QUESTION, SO THE FIRST PART IS NO. THE STATEMENT THAT
5 THEY INTRODUCED THAT WAS INCONSISTENT WAS GLENNYS
6 BERUMAN'S STATEMENT, SO THAT'S WHAT IS CONTROLLING.
7 SECONDLY, BASED ON WHAT MS. MARTINEZ SAID, HE
8 WAS ONLY SAYING WHAT HE HAD HEARD, RUMORS, THINGS LIKE
9 THAT. SO WHAT HE SAID TO MS. MARTINEZ ACTUALLY IS NOT
\
10 INCONSISTENT WITH HIS CURRENT TESTIMONY; IT'S NOT

11 INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT HE'S ALREADY SAID.
13 MR. TROCHA, THE PEOPLE'S VIEW?
14 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, 791(B) SAYS, "SUCH A
15 CONSISTENT STATEMENT CAN BE BROUGHT IN AFTER AN EXPRESS OR
16 IMPLIED CHARGE HAS BEEN MADE THAT IS TESTIMONY AT THE
17 HEARING"
19 MR. TROCHA: -- "IS RECENTLY FABRICATED OR IS
20 INFLUENCED BY BIAS OR OTHER IMPROPER MOTIVE AND THE
..
21 STATEMENT WAS MADE BEFORE THE BIAS, MOTIVE" -- "MOTIVE FOR
22 FABRICATION OR OTHER IMPROPER MOTIVE IS ALLEGED TO HAVE
23 ARISEN."
24 COUNSEL WANTS TO PLACE THE STATEMENT OF BERUMAN
25 AHEAD OF CAROL MARTINEZ, BUT THAT IGNORES THE TIME WHICH
26 IS BIAS, MOTIVE FOR BIAS AND MOTIVE FOR FABRICATION HAS
27 ARISEN. WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT HE RAN TO THE REC
28 CENTER THE NEXT DAY TO TRY TO PROVE HE WAS THERE.
1936
1 ALSO, PRIOR TO CAROL MARTINEZ TALKING TO THE

2 POLICE, WHICH PREDATES THE CONVERSATION JOSUE GUTIERREZ
3 HAD WITH THE POLICE, SHE MAKES THE CONSISTENT STATEMENT --
4 THE STATEMENT THAT JOSUE TOLD HER REGARDING THE KILLING
5 AND THINGS THAT OCCURRED DURING THE KILLING, WHICH IS
6 SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR TO WHAT MS. BERUMAN SAID JOSUE TOLD
7 HER.
8 THIS STATEMENT NOW THAT COUNSEL WANTS TO BRING
9 IN IS CLEARLY AFTER THE TIME TO FABRICATE HAS COME AROUND.
10 HE'S TALKING TO THE POLICE. THIS IS AFTER HIS FRIENDS
11 HAVE TALKED TO THE POLICE. THIS IS AFTER WE'VE HEARD THE
12 POLICE HAD BEEN LOOKING FOR HIM.
13 THIS IS NOT A PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT. HE IS
'
14 SAYING SOMETHING ON THE STAND WHICH HAS BEEN IMPEACHED
15 WITH MS. BERUMAN. AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT, CAROL MARTINEZ
16 WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS AND SHE CORROBORATED THAT
17 STATEMENT TO MS. BERUMAN THROUGH A STATEMENT OF HER OWN.
18 COUNSEL CANNOT POINT TO THE STATEMENT BEING MADE
19 AT A TIME BEFORE THIS MOTIVE FOR BIAS OR FABRICATION HAS
20 COME ABOUT.
21 THE COURT: WHEN WAS THE -- WHEN WAS MS. CAROL
22 MARTINEZ INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE IN WHICH SHE TOLD THE
23 POLICE --
24 MR. TROCHA: CAROL MARTINEZ, DURING -- THAT INTERVIEW
25 WAS SEPTEMBER 16th, 2008, AT 1320 HOURS.
26 THE COURT: OKAY.
27 MR. TROCHA: MR. GUTIERREZ'S INTERVIEW WAS
28 SEPTEMBER 17th, 2008, 0837 HOURS.
1937
1 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. NOW, MR. TROCHA, WHAT'S YOUR

2 VIEW ABOUT SUBDIVISION (A) OF SECTION 791, THAT IF THE
3 PURPORTED PROFFERED CONSISTENT STATEMENT WAS MADE BEFORE
4 THE ALLEGED INCONSISTENT STATEMENT WAS MADE, IT'S
5 ADMISSIBLE?
6 MR. TROCHA: WELL, THAT'S ALWAYS GOING TO HAPPEN IN
7 EVERY CASE. THE PERSON TESTIFIES, THEY GET IMPEACHED WITH
8 A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT. WE DON'T JUST KEEP GOING
11
9 BACK AND FORTH AS TO, 0H, WHAT DID HE SAY BEFORE THAT?"
10 AND THEN "WHAT DID HE SAY BEFORE THAT?" AND SO ON AND SO
11 FORTH.
12 THE COURT: THAT'S NOT HOW I READ SUBDIVISION (A).
13 DOESN'T SUBDIVISION (A) DEAL WITH A SITUATION WHERE, FOR
14 INSTANCE, AT TIME 1 HE SAYS SOMETHING TO A WITNESS, HE
15 SAYS SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY ON THE WITNESS STAND, THE
16 PROSECUTION PUTS IN THE WITNESS AS TO WHAT HE SAID AT TIME
17 1 -- DOESN'T SUBDIVISION (A) SAY THAT IF THE CONSISTENT
18 STATEMENT THAT IS BEING PROFFERED WAS MADE BEFORE THAT
19 TIME 1 STATEMENT, IT COMES IN?
20 MR. TROCHA: I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT EXCEPT THE
21 STATEMENT THAT OPERATES HERE THOUGH IS THE STATEMENT TO
22 CAROL MARTINEZ. I MEAN, JUST BECAUSE THAT STATEMENT CAME
23 LATER IN THE CASE THAN WHAT MS. BERUMAN SAID DOESN'T
24 REALLY AFFECT THE OPERATION OF WHEN THE PRIOR CONSISTENT
25 STATEMENT COMES IN. WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS --
26 THE COURT: YOU'RE SAYING THAT THERE ARE TWO PRIOR
27 STATEMENTS?
28 MR. TROCHA: CORRECT.
1938
1 THE COURT: ONE TO BERUMAN --

2 MR. TROCHA: AND ONE TO CAROL MARTINEZ.
3 THE COURT: AND THE CAROL MARTINEZ ONE PREDATES THIS?
4 MR. TROCHA: ABSOLUTELY.
5 THE COURT: WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT THAT,
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI? IN OTHER WORDS, I KNOW YOU SAY THE
7 BERUMAN STATEMENT CONTROLS. WHY?
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, IT CONTROLS BECAUSE THAT'S
9 THE ONE THEY'RE OFFERING AS THE BASIS FOR THE EXCEPTION TO
'
10 A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT. IF MS. BERUMAN NEVER
11 TESTIFIED, CAROL MARTINEZ'S STATEMENT MIGHT NEVER COME IN
12 BECAUSE SHE SPECIFICALLY SAID SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT WHAT
13 JOSUE HAD HEARD, RUMORS HE HAD HEARD.
14 IN MY VIEW, MS. CAROL MARTINEZ'S STATEMENT IS
15 NOT ACTUALLY INCONSISTENT WITH HIS TESTIMONY AND WOULDN'T
16 EVEN BE ADMISSIBLE HAD MS. BERUMAN NEVER SAID THAT
17 GUTIERREZ WAS REPORTING TO BE AT THE PARK.
18 AND IN THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES
19 AFTER -- I KNOW CREDIBILITY IS NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE
20 GOING TO GO INTO, BUT CARLOS RIOS IS CORROBORATING VERY
'
21 WELL THAT MR. GUTIERREZ IS TELLING THE TRUTH, THAT HE
22 WASN'T THERE.
23 THE COURT: DID HE MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THOSE
24 PURPORTED RUMORS OR THINGS THAT HE SAW, DEPENDING ON WHICH
25 VIEW YOU TAKE, IN THIS STATEMENT ON SEPTEMBER 17th TO
26 THE POLICE?
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THIS IS JUST THE PORTION THAT I
28 THOUGHT WAS CONSISTENT. I HAVE THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT IF
1939
1 YOU'D LIKE TO LOOK AT IT. I'M NOT -- I HONESTLY DON'T

2 KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, BUT I DO HAVE A FULL
3 COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT IN MY NOTEBOOK HERE.
4 YOU MEAN -- LET ME CLARIFY WHAT YOU'RE ASKING.
5 YOU'RE ASKING DID THE POLICE ASK HIM, "HEY, YOU TOLD CAROL
6 MARTINEZ THIS; IS THAT TRUE?"
7 THE COURT: OR DID HE MENTION ANY OF THOSE THINGS?
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M NOT SURE. I DON'T THINK SO,
9 THOUGH.
10 THE COURT: I MEAN, HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THE
11 POLICE WERE AFTER INFORMATION ABOUT THE CASE, AND IF HE
12 SAID ALL THESE THINGS TO CAROL, IT WOULD SEEM LOGICAL HE
13 WOULD MENTION THOSE TO THE POLICE. DID HE MENTION THEM TO
14 THE POLICE?
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DON'T THINK HE DID, BUT I WOULD
16 HAVE TO THUMB THROUGH THE TRANSCRIPT TO FIND OUT FOR SURE.
17 I DON'T WANT TO SAY SOMETHING THAT I'M NOT SURE OF.
19 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, JUST TO POINT THE COURT TO
20 THE USE NOTES TO 791, THE LAST STATEMENT DESCRIBING
21 SUBDIVISION (A), WHICH THE COURT HAS ASKED A QUESTION
22 ABOUT IS -- IT SAYS, "IT'S NO MORE THAN A LOGICAL
23 EXTENSION OF THE GENERAL RULE THAT EVIDENCE OF A PRIOR
24 CONSISTENT STATEMENT IS ADMISSIBLE
.. TO REHABILITATE A
25 WITNESS FOLLOWING AN EXPRESS OR IMPLIED CHARGE OF RECENT
26 FABRICATION, WHICH WOULD FALL UNDER SUBDIVISION (B)."
27 THE COURT: THE CHRONOLOGY SEEMS TO BE THIS: THE
28 KILLING OCCURS ON THE 13th OF SEPTEMBER. THE POLICE
1940
1 TALK TO CAROL ON -- THE 16th?

3 THE COURT: CAROL GIVES THIS VERY SPECIFIC
4 INFORMATION THAT JOSUE TELLS HER THAT SUPPOSEDLY HE HEARD.
5 AS I SAID YESTERDAY, .. I ADMITTED THAT
6 CONDITIONALLY UNDER SECTION 403(A)(1) OR (A)(2). IF
7 THERE'S EVIDENCE IN THE RECORD THAT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT TO
8 SUSTAIN A FINDING OF PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, THEN THE JURY MAY
9 CONSIDER IT. I THINK THERE IS SUCH EVIDENCE.
10 I DON'T THINK IT'S PROPER JUST TO SAY, "WELL,
11 BECAUSE ONE OF THE PRIOR STATEMENTS WAS AT TIME 2 AND THE
12 OTHER WAS AT TIME 1, WE'RE ONLY GOING TO TRY TO USE THE
13 TIME 2 STATEMENT TO DETERMINE THE ADMISSIBILITY OF THE
14 PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT." I THINK IT ACTUALLY HAS TO
15 BE MADE BEFORE ANY OF THE PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS
16 WERE MADE AND BEFORE -- OR BEFORE THE MOTIVE TO FABRICATE
17 EXISTS.
18 I'LL MARK THIS AS DEFENSE EXHIBIT NEXT IN ORDER
19 SO IT'S PART OF THE APPELLATE RECORD -- "THIS" BEING THE
20 TRANSCRIPT -- BUT I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THE PEOPLE'S
21 OBJECTION.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I'VE ALREADY MARKED
23 THE EXHIBIT.
24 THE COURT: THANK YOU. WHAT IS IT MARKED AS FOR THE
25 RECORD?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE TRANSCRIPT -- I THINK YOU HAVE
27 THE MARKED COPY OF IT.
28 THE COURT: NO.
1941
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'LL TAKE A LOOK.

2 THE COURT: I FIND OR CONCLUDE IT'S NOT A PROPER
3 PRIOR CONSISTENT STATEMENT, BUT LET'S BE SURE THAT IT'S
4 PART OF THE RECORD IN THE EVENT THAT A REVIEWING COURT IS
5 LOOKING AT THIS. SO EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T GO TO THE JURY
6 UNLESS THINGS CHANGE, IT NEEDS TO BE PART OF THE RECORD.
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S ON MY EXHIBIT LIST, AND I'M
8 VERY SURE I MARKED ONE.
9 THE COURT: I'M SURE YOU OID, AND I JUST DON'T --
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME TAKE A LOOK AT MY --
11 ACTUALLY, IT'S ON THE EXHIBIT LIST, MADAM CLERK, AS
12 JOSUE GUTIERREZ'S TRANSCRIPT. SO IF WE CAN JUST MARK ONE
13 AGAIN THE SAME EXHIBIT NUMBER.
14 THE CLERK: IS IT 11
TRANSCRIPT, GUTIERREZ, 9-13-08,
15 EDITED 7 11
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT IS. THE DATE'S WRONG, BUT THAT

17 IS IT.
18 THE CLERK: THAT'S FF.
19 THE COURT: IS THAT EXHIBIT FF?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SOUNDS RIGHT.
'
21 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT FF WAS MARKED
23 THE COURT: ON THE EXHIBIT LIST FF IS SPECIFIED AS
24 11
TRANSCRIPT, GUTIERREZ, 9-13-08, EDITED. 11 THAT SHOULD BE
25 9-17-08?
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S CORRECT, AND THAT MAKES
27 SENSE BECAUSE THE -- I'D LIKE TO LODGE THIS WITH THE COURT
28 AS WELL, EXHIBIT GG, WHICH IS A CD-ROM OF THE AUDIO.
1942
1 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT GG .. WAS MARKED

3 THE COURT: AND THAT DOES SAY 9-17. ALL RIGHT.
4 THANK YOU. THE REQUEST TO OFFER FF AND GG INTO EVIDENCE
5 BEFORE THE JURY IS DENIED. THE EXHIBIT WILL BE RETAINED
6 FOR THE COURT.
7 GG IS THE FULL AUDIO TRANSCRIPT -- I'M SORRY --
8 THE FULL AUDIO RECORDING; FF IS THE PORTION THAT WAS BEING
9 OFFERED IN EVIDENCE. BOTH OF THOSE WILL BE MAINTAINED
10 WITH THE RECORD.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: GG IS AN EDITED COPY AS WELL.
12 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. THANK YOU. AN EDITED COPY AS
..
13 WELL. THANK YOU. SO LET'S JUST BE SURE THAT THOSE ARE
14 MAINTAINED WITH THE EXHIBITS BUT DON'T GO BACK TO THE
15 JURY.
16 ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. LET ME INVITE COUNSEL TO
17 TAKE A QUICK BREAK, AND STAFF, AND WE'LL GET UNDERWAY --
18 WE'VE ALREADY MADE THE JURY WAIT A LITTLE BIT, BUT THAT'S
19 FINE. THIS NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED -- 10 MORE MINUTES,
20 3:00 O'CLOCK. WE'RE IN RECESS UNTIL THEN.
21 (RECESS TAKEN.)
23 THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, COUNSEL.
24 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL MEMBERS OF THE
25 JURY ARE PRESENT.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR, BUT I DON'T
28 HAVE A WITNESS IN THE COURTROOM RIGHT NOW.
1943

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OH, WE'RE GETTING HIM. OKAY.
3 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, BEFORE THE BREAK
4 THERE WAS AN OBJECTION TO THE PLAYING OF THE PARTICULAR
5 TRANSCRIPT WITH RESPECT TO THE WITNESS ON THE WITNESS
6 STAND. I SUSTAINED THAT OBJECTION AFTER ARGUMENT. THERE
7 MAY STILL BE FURTHER EXAMINATION OF THAT WITNESS THOUGH.
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, HE'S YOUR WITNESS. DO YOU
9 WANT HIM IN?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE CAN COME IN FOR THE CROSS
11 BECAUSE I'M DONE.
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, HE'S YOUR WITNESS.
13 WILL YOU GO GET HIM.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OH, YEAH, SURE. I'M SORRY.
15 THE COURT: THAT'S OKAY.
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THOUGHT SOMEBODY ELSE WAS
17 GETTING HIM.
18 THE COURT: NO PROBLEM. NO PROBLEM.
20 THE COURT: I'M SURE I WASN'T AS CLEAR AS I SHOULD
21 HAVE BEEN. JOSUE, THANK YOU. IF YOU'D HAVE A SEAT UP
22 HERE AGAIN, PLEASE.
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S BEEN A LONG WEEK.
24 THE COURT: FOR ALL INVOLVED, BUT PARTICULARLY
25 COUNSEL. THANK YOU.
26 THERE BEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS FROM
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY EXAMINE BY WAY OF
28 CROSS-EXAMINATION, MR. TROCHA.,
1944

2
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, YOU WERE HERE, WHAT, ABOUT TWO
6 WEDNESDAYS AGO?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. YOU'VE BEEN TO A TATTOO PARLOR SINCE WE LAST SAW
9 YOU?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. YOU TOLD US YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER, REMEMBER
12 THAT?
13 A. YEAH.
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT'S 266 -- PEOPLE'S
18 EXHIBIT 266. THIS A PICTURE OF YOUR BACK, IS IT NOT,
19 MR. GUTIERREZ?
20 A. IT IS.
21 Q. WHAT'S ON YOUR BACK?
22 A. A TATTOO.
23 Q. OF WHAT?
24 A. SHELLTOWN.
25 Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. SO YOU HAD THIS TATTOO WHEN YOU TESTIFIED LAST
28 WEDNESDAY, CORRECT?
1945
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. DID YOU FORGET TO TELL US ABOUT IT ON WEDNESDAY?
3 A. YOU DIDN'T ASK.
4 Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER, RIGHT?
5 A. RIGHT.
6 Q. WHAT'S "SHELLTOWN" FOR?
7 A. I WAS DRUNK AND I GOT IT.
8 Q. WHY?
9 A. I WAS DRUNK. I CAN'T REMEMBER.
10 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE A REASON FOR GETTING "SHELLTOWN"
11 TATTOOED ON YOUR BACK?
12 A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I WAS DRUNK.
13 Q. WHEN YOU WERE DRUNK AND GOT IT TATTOOED, WHY
14 DIDN'T YOU GET "LOGAN HEIGHTS" PUT ON YOUR BACK?
15 A. I WAS DRUNK. I CAN'T REMEMBER HAVING A TATTOO.
16 Q. JUST COINCIDENTLY YOU GOT "SHELLTOWN," WHICH IS
17 WHERE YOU LIVE?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER?
20 A. NO.
21 Q. HOW ABOUT THE FRIENDS YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH
22 OUTSIDE TODAY, SUCH AS MR. ACEVES?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. IS HE A GANG MEMBER?'
25 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF, NO.
26 Q. HE'S ONE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS AGAIN, REMEMBER?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. REMEMBER ALSO TALKING ABOUT ANGELINA CAMPOS LAST
1946
1 TIME YOU WERE HERE?

2 A. MM-HMM. I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T TALK TO YOU ABOUT
3 IT.
4 Q. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO ANGELINA CAMPOS
5 WAS. DO YOU RECALL THAT, MR. GUTIERREZ?
6 A. NO, I DON'T.
7 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO ANGELINA CAMPOS IS?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. WHO IS SHE?
10 A. MY FRIEND.
11 Q. WHAT'S HER NICKNAME?
12 A. I DON'T KNOW.
13 Q. YOU DON'T?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING WITH AN INVESTIGATOR
16 FROM MY OFFICE RIGHT AFTER YOU .. GOT OFF THE STAND ON
17 WEDNESDAY?
18 A. YEAH, I DO.
19 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING HIM ON THAT DAY THAT HER
20 NICKNAME IS "CLARA," C-L-A-R-A?
21 A. NO. THEY TOLD ME THAT WAS HER NICKNAME.
22 Q. BECAUSE THE STATEMENT IS, "GUTIERREZ SAID HE DID
23 KNOW CAMPOS AND KNEW HER AS 'CLARA.'" YOU DIDN'T SAY
24 THAT?
r. 26
27
Q. HE WENT ON TO SAY, "GUTIERREZ SAID THAT CLARA IS
HIS QUOTE/UNQUOTE 'HOMEGIRL.'" YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT?
28 A. SHE IS MY HOMEGIRL.
1947
1 Q. IS MS. GUTIERREZ [SIC] A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN

2 38th STREET?
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE PERSON.
4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. SORRY. IS MS. CAMPOS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN
6 38th STREET?
7 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF, NO.
11 11
8 Q. DID SHE EVER GET DRUNK AND GET SHELLTOWN PUT
9 ON HER?
10 A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
11 Q. SHE'S YOUR HOMEGIRL, RIGHT?
12 A. YEAH, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO BE ASKING HER, LIKE,
13 11
DID YOU GET ANY TATTOOS? 11
14 Q. ANYBODY GIVING YOU A PROBLEM ABOUT THE

15 "SHELLTOWN" TATTOOED ON YOUR BACK?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WHY NOT?
18 A. NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT.
19 Q. WELL, NOW EVERYONE DOES.
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU NOW,
22 MR. GUTIERREZ?
23 A. I DON'T KNOW.
24 Q. YOU DON'T SEEM TOO NERVOUS; WOULD THAT BE
25 CORRECT?
26 A. WHY WOULD I BE?
27 Q. YOU'RE NOT NERVOUS ABOUT HAVING A GANG'S TATTOO
28 ON YOU FOR WHICH YOU'RE NOT A MEMBER OF IT?
1948
1 A. WELL, I CAN GET IT REMOVED.

.. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM
2 WITH THAT?
3 Q. TODAY?
4 A. COULD BE.
5 Q. YOU THINK YOU CAN GO GET IT REMOVED TODAY?
6 A. MAYBE, PERHAPS.
7 Q. WHY HAVEN'T YOU GOT IT REMOVED UP TO TODAY?
8 A. NO MONEY. IT COSTS MONEY.
9 Q. YOU GOT MONEY TO GET IT, RIGHT?
10 A. I GUESS, IF YOU SAY SO.
11 Q. IT WASN'T DONE FOR FREE, RIGHT?
13 Q. WHO DID IT?
14 A. I'M TELLING YOU, I DON'T REMEMBER.
15 Q. YOU JUST WOKE UP ONE DAY WITH A TATTOO ON YOUR
16 BACK?
17 A. I DID.
18 Q. LET'S GO OVER THE LETTER YOU WROTE TO
19 MOISES LOPEZ. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO EXPRESS YOUR ALIBI TO
20 MR. LOPEZ AT A MEMORIAL?
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. WHY DID YOU THINK MOlSES WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT
25 WHAT YOU DID THAT DAY?
26 A. BECAUSE THAT'S THE LAST THING I REMEMBER FROM
27 HIM, SO
28 Q. EXCEPT YOU WERE WITH HIM THAT DAY. WOULDN'T HE
1949
1 ALREADY KNOW THESE THINGS?

2 A. YEAH. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?
3 Q. WHY DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT DEFINITELY NOT
4 BEING IN THE PARK BUT BEING AT A QUINCEANERA?
5 A. THAT WAS THE FIRST THING -- THAT WAS MY FIRST
6 THOUGHTS ABOUT IT WHEN I WAS WRITING THAT THING DOWN.
7 THAT'S WHAT I WROTE.
8 Q. SO WHEN WE GET 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,
9 11, 12, 13 -- 13 LINES IN, THAT'S WHEN YOU FINALLY SAY,
10 "DAMN, I'M REALLY GOING TO MISS YOU, FOOL."
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. BEFORE THAT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU DID
13 AT THE QUINCEANERA AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. THERE'S NO MENTION OF, YOU KNOW, THE GOOD TIMES
16 YOU HAD TOGETHER GROWING UP OR,ANYTHING LIKE THAT,
17 CORRECT?
18 A. I DIDN'T GROW UP WITH HIM. THAT'S THE LAST
19 THING I REMEMBER FROM HIM, THE LAST TIME WE WERE TOGETHER,
20 SO THAT'S WHAT I WROTE.
21 Q. WELL, YOU DID WRITE, "I'M GOING TO MISS THOSE
22 TIMES AFTER SCHOOL CHILLING AT THE PARK WITH THE" --
23 THERE'S A SYMBOL-- "FRIENDS AND STUFF." YOU WROTE THAT,
24 RIGHT?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. IT'S A SYMBOL OF TWO LINES WITH TWO DOTS IN
27 BETWEEN THEM, CORRECT?
28 A. WHERE?
1950
1 Q. RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).

2 A. OH' "LITTLE' II L-I-L.
3 Q. L-I-L IS "L" TWO DOTS AND AN "Ln?
4 A. SLANG, YEAH.
5 Q. AND THEN YOU MENTION RAUL, ISHMAEL AND ALEX.
6 A. YEAH.
7 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU TALK ABOUT TIMES YOU HAD WITH
8 RAUL, ISHMAEL AND ALEX THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DAY
9 HE WAS MURDERED?
10 A. I'M TELLING YOU, THAT'S THE FIRST THOUGHTS I HAD
11 WHEN WRITING IT, AND I WAS JUST WRITING.
12 Q. WHAT DAY WAS THIS THING WRITTEN?
13 A. LIKE TWO DAYS AFTER THAT HAPPENED, TWO OR THREE
14 DAYS.
15 Q. WAS THIS BEFORE OR AFTER YOU WENT BACK TO THE
16 REC CENTER AFTER THE SHOOTING?
17 A. CAN'T REMEMBER.
18 Q. DID YOU GO BACK TO THE REC CENTER AFTER THE
19 SHOOTING?
20 A. YEAH, I DID.
21 Q. WHY?
22 A. TO ASK FOR A VIDEO.
23 Q. SO YOU COULD PROVE YOU WERE THERE, RIGHT?
24 A. THAT I WAS AT THE REC, YEAH.
25 Q. IN AN ATTEMPT TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T IN THE PARK?
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. BUT THERE WAS NO VIDEO, WAS THERE,
28 MR. GUTIERREZ?
1951
1 A. YEAH, THERE WAS A VIpEO.

2 Q. THERE WAS?
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. WELL, WE HEARD FROM THE PERSON FROM THE REC
5 CENTER WHO SAID THERE WASN'T A VIDEO.
6 A. WE SEEN A VIDEO.
7 Q. SO THIS PERSON FROM THE REC CENTER, WHAT,
8 FORGOT?
9 A. I GUESS.
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE LAST
11 QUESTION AS MISSTATES THE PRIOR TESTIMONY OF MR. RIOS.
12 THE COURT: YOU CAN EXPLORE IT ON REDIRECT.
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. REMEMBER YOU WERE TESTIFYING ALSO THAT YOU WERE
16 SPENDING SEVERAL MINUTES ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR MOISES THAT
17 NIGHT BEFORE GOING TO THE QUINCEANERA. DO YOU REMEMBER
18 THAT?
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. WE HEARD TODAY NOW YOU'VE ALSO SEEN ALEX AT THE
21 QUINCEANERA?
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. HOW DID ALEX GET MOISES' BIKE?
24 A. I DON'T KNOW. I REALLY DON'T KNOW.
25 Q. YOU SAW HIM WITH MOISES' BIKE, RIGHT?
26 A. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW.
27 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THAT?
28 A. I SEEN ALEX. I DIDN'T SEE THE BIKE.
1952
1 Q. WHY AGAIN COULDN'T YOU FIND MOISES?

2 A. I'M TELLING YOU, WE THOUGHT HE WAS OVER THERE AT
3 THE QUINCEANERA.
4 Q. BECAUSE YOU SCOURED THE PARK LOOKING FOR HIM,
5 RIGHT?
6 A. WE LOOKED AT THE PARK. HE WASN'T THERE, SO
7 WE'RE, LIKE, 11
HE'S PROBABLY AT THE QUINCEANERA, 11
SO WE
8 WENT TO THE QUINCEANERA.
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM JUST STANDING ON THE STREET
10 BY THE TENNIS COURTS?
11 A. WE DIDN'T SEE HIM.
12 Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR
13 HIM?
14 A. WE LOOKED FOR HIM.
15 Q. MR. GUTIERREZ, IS YOUR MEMORY OF THESE EVENTS
16 ABOUT THE SAME AS YOUR MEMORY OF
.. WHEN YOU GOT THE
11
17 11
SHELLTOWN TATTOO?
18 A. NO. I GOT A PERFECT MEMORY FROM THAT DAY. MY
19 TATTOO, I DON'T KNOW. I CAN'T REMEMBER ABOUT THAT.
20 Q. YOUR PERFECT MEMORY, IT INCLUDES CAROL'S MOM
21 DRIVING YOU TO THE QUINCEANERA, RIGHT?
22 A. WELL, SHE DIDN'T DRIVE US TO THE QUINCEANERA.
23 Q. THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID ON WEDNESDAY.
24 A. NO.
25 Q. WHO DROVE?
26 A. CAROL.
27 Q. AND CAROL'S MOM WAS AT THE CARNE ASADA AS WELL,
28 RIGHT?
1953
1 A. NO.
2 Q. SHE WASN'T? YOU WENT TO HER HOUSE?
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. DID YOU SEE CAROL'S MOM?
5 A. YEAH, WE DID.
6 Q. YOU DID? WHAT WAS SHE DOING?
7 A. WHEN WE WENT OVER THERE? DID WE? I DON'T KNOW.
8 I JUST TALKED TO RONALD. I DON'T REMEMBER. WE ONLY
'
9 TALKED TO RONALD.
10 Q. BUT YOU DEFINITELY SAW HIS MOM, RIGHT?
11 A. CAN'T REMEMBER.
12 Q. I THOUGHT YOU REMEMBERED IT PERFECTLY.
13 A. WELL, I CAN'T REMEMBER THAT.
14 Q. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE GUNSHOTS?
15 A. I WENT OVER TO THE PARK, BUT I GOT STOPPED RIGHT
16 THERE BY THE REC CENTER. THAT'S WHEN I SEEN CARLOS.
17 Q. THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
18 A. WE WERE JUST RIGHT THERE TALKING. WE WENT BACK
19 TO THE QUINCEANERA, THEN WE TRIED GOING HOME.
20 Q. THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
21 A. WE WENT HOME.
22 Q. HOW?
23 A. WE GOT A RIDE.
24 Q. FROM?
25 A. CAROL'S TIA.
26 Q. OH, HER AUNT?
27 A. YEAH.
28 THE COURT: T-I-A.
1954
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY CARS DRIVE BY?
3 A. NO. THE STREET WAS CLOSED.
4 Q. WHEN YOU WERE AT THE QUINCEANERA, DID YOU HAVE
5 THIS TATTOO THEN?
6 A. NO.
7 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET THIS AGAIN?
8 A. LIKE ABOUT, WHAT, A YEAR.
9 Q. ABOUT A YEAR AGO?
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. WHEN YOU WERE DRUNK?
12 A. YEP.
13 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ALSO TELLING MR. CAMPOS THAT YOU
14 WERE DRUNK WHEN YOU TALKED TO ANGELINA EARLIER THIS YEAR?
15 A. OH, YEAH.
16 Q. WERE YOU DRUNK THE NIGHT OF THE QUINCEANERA?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. HAVE YOU EVER GONE TAGGING WITH ANY OF YOUR
19 FRIENDS?
20 A. NO.
21 Q. NEVER?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. NOW, LAST TIME YOU SAID YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN
24 CLAIMING SHELLTOWN FOR A YEAR.' WHEN WAS THAT AGAIN?
25 A. LIKE, WHAT, TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS AGO.
26 Q. BEFORE YOU GOT THE TATTOO?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. BUT YOU WERE NEVER AN OFFICIAL MEMBER?
1955
1 A. NO.
2 Q. NEVER GOT JUMPED IN?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. WERE YOU CLAIMING WHEN YOUR FRIEND WAS KILLED?
5 A. NO.
6 Q. BEFORE THAT?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE THAN THREE YEARS
9 AGO?
10 A. WELL, I GUESS.
11 Q. THROUGHOUT THIS TIME YOU NEVER KNEW ANY OF YOUR
12 FRIENDS TO BE GANG MEMBERS?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. NEVER CLAIMED TO THE POLICE YOU WERE GANG
15 MEMBERS?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO COME BACK LATER LIKE WE
18 DID WITH THE SHELLTOWN TATTOO IN THIS CASE, MR. GUTIERREZ,
19 IF THAT PROVES TO BE TRUE?
25 COUNSEL, WHAT EXHIBIT IS THIS?
r. 26
27
MR. TROCHA: IT'S NOT MARKED.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: SHOULD I MARK IT?
..
28 MR. TROCHA: YEAH, IF YOU WANT.
1956
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NEXT IN ORDER, PLEASE,

2 MADAM CLERK.
3 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT III WAS MARKED
5 THE CLERK: YOUR HONOR, I GAVE DEFENSE COUNSEL THE
6 LABEL, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S NEXT IN ORDER.
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE A LIST.
8 THE CLERK: HE HAS IT.
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT WILL BE III.
11 Q. SHOWING YOU DEFENSE III, MR. GUTIERREZ, WHAT IS
12 THIS?
13 A. A TATTOO ON MY LEFT ARM.
14 Q. WHAT'S IT SAY?
15 A. "R.I.P. SMOKEY."
16 Q. WHO'S SMOKEY?
17 A. MOISES.
18 Q. YOUR FRIEND, RIGHT?
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. YOU GOT THAT IN MEMORIAL OF HIM?
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. JUST LIKE YOU WROTE THAT LETTER IN MEMORIAL TO
23 HIM, RIGHT?
24 A. YEAH.
25 Q. HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU WROTE THAT LETTER?
26 A. I DON'T KNOW. THAT WAS LIKE THREE YEARS AGO, SO
27 I WAS -- I WAS LIKE 16, 17.
28 Q. 16. WHEN WERE YOU BORN?
1957
1 A. 1991.
2 Q. WHAT MONTH?
3 A. NOVEMBER.
4 Q. SO IF THIS HAPPENED IN 2008, YOU WERE, WHAT, 17;
5 IS THAT RIGHT?
6 A. YEAH.
7 Q. SO AT 17 YEARS OLD, SHORTLY AFTER THE SHOOTING,
8 DID YOU GET TOGETHER WITH RONALD MARTINEZ, ALEXIS MARTINEZ
9 [SIC], CAROL MARTINEZ, CAROL'S MOM AND CARLOS RIOS AND
10 HAVE A MEETING?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. DID YOU EVER GET TOGETHER WITH THOSE PEOPLE AND
'
13 DISCUSS SOME KIND OF STORY OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
14 A. NO.
15 Q. NEVER DID?
16 A. LIKE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
17 Q. YOU NEVER GOT TOGETHER WITH THOSE PEOPLE I JUST
18 MENTIONED AND SORT OF MAPPED OUT SOME EVENTS OF WHAT YOU
19 MIGHT SAY HAPPENED ON THAT NIGHT?
20 A. YEAH, WE TALKED ABOUT IT.
21 Q. DID YOU EVER MAP IT OUT AND DECIDE WHERE
22 EVERYONE WAS GOING TO BE AT CERTAIN TIMES?
23 A. NO.
'
24 Q. WHEN YOU WROTE THAT MEMORIAL, WERE YOU TRYING TO
25 MAKE A RECORD OF THE EVENTS OF THE NIGHT?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO DO?
28 A. I DON'T KNOW. I WAS JUST WRITING IT.
1958
1 Q. JUST SAYING GOODBYE TO YOUR FRIEND, RIGHT?

2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. ONE OF YOUR GOOD FRIENDS?
4 A. YEAH.
7 FURTHER CROSS?
8 MR. TROCHA: YES, YOUR HONOR.
9
10 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. I DIDN'T SEE THE LETTER WHERE YOU SAID "GOODBYE,
13 MOISES. " CAN YOU POINT IT OUT FOR ME.
15 THE COURT: IT IS. SUSTAINED. THE LETTER SPEAKS FOR
16 ITSELF.
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 11
18 Q. WERE YOU DRUNK WHEN YOU GOT R.I.P SMOKEY ON
19 YOUR ARM?
21 THE WITNESS: I WASN'T.
23 BY MR. TROCHA:
24 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET THAT TATTOO?
25 A. ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO.
26 Q. WHY DID YOU GET IT?
27 A. BECAUSE THAT WAS MY FRIEND, AND I WANTED TO GET
28 SOMETHING TO, LIKE, HAVE HIM WITH ME.
1959
1 Q. WHERE DID YOU GET IT?

2 A. DOWNTOWN .
3 Q. WHERE?
4 A. I DON'T KNOW THE PLACE. RIGHT HERE IN DOWNTOWN.
5 Q. A TATTOO PARLOR?
6 A. YEAH.
7 Q. SO YOU ACTUALLY WENT FROM YOUR HOME IN SHELLTOWN
8 TO DOWNTOWN TO GET A TATTOO OF SOMETHING THAT MEANS
~
9 SOMETHING TO YOU?
10 A. WELL, I DIDN'T LIVE IN SHELLTOWN. I LIVED IN
11 MARKET.
12 Q. BUT YOU STILL HAD TO TRAVEL DOWN, GO TO A TATTOO
13 PARLOR TO GET SOMETHING THAT MEANS SOMETHING PUT ON YOUR
14 BODY PERMANENTLY, CORRECT?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. BUT YOU CAN'T TELL US THE SAME REASON, WHY YOU
17 GOT THE SHELLTOWN TATTOOED ON YOUR BACK?
18 A. I WAS DRUNK.
19 Q. WHICH ONE'S BIGGER ON YOUR BODY, MR. GUTIERREZ?
20 A. 11
SHELLTOWN ...
21 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU GET .. R.I.P. SMOKEY" IN THAT GIANT
22 FONT ACROSS YOUR CHEST?
23 A. I WAS.
24 Q. YOU DIDN'T. WHY NOT? IS THERE A REASON WHY
11 11
25 SHELLTOWN IS SO BIG ON YOUR BACK?
26 A. I DON'T KNOW. I WAS DRUNK. I DON'T EVEN KNOW.
1960
1 THE COURT: MAY MR. GUTIERREZ BE EXCUSED?

3 MR. TROCHA: YES.
4 THE COURT: MR. GUTIERREZ, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU MAY
5 STEP DOWN. YOU ARE EXCUSED. DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR
6 TESTIMONY OR WHAT HAPPENED IN COURT WITH ANYBODY OTHER
7 THAN THE INVESTIGATORS OR OF COURSE THE LAWYERS UNTIL THE
8 TRIAL IS OVER.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE DEFENSE WILL CALL
12 RANDY BARNES.
13
14 RANDY BARNES-DE LEON,
17
20 WITNESS STAND.
21 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. RIGHT UP HERE NEXT
22 TO ME IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
23 THE CLERK: PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND SPELL
25 THE WITNESS: RANDY BARNES-DE LEON, B-A-R-N-E-S.
26 THE COURT: WAS THERE ANOTHER NAME? LEON?
27 THE WITNESS: IT'S HYPHEN "DE LEON."
28 THE COURT: D-E-L-E-
1961
1 THE WITNESS: D-E, CAPITAL L-E-0-N.

2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, SIR.
4
7 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. BARNES.
9 Q. YOU GO BY "MR. BARNES," RIGHT?
10 A. YES, SIR.
11 Q. WHAT ELSE DO YOU GO BY?
12 A. 11
RANDY. II
13 Q. YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER NAME BESIDES THAT?

14 A. NO, SIR.
15 Q. HOW ABOUT 11
SPANKY"?
16 A. WHEN I WAS YOUNG.
17 Q. THAT WAS YOUR QUOTE/UNQUOTE NICKNAME?
18 A. YEAH, WHEN I WAS YOUNGER.
19 Q. WHY WAS IT YOUR NICKNAME?
20 A. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT ORIGINATED, BUT -- I WAS
21 LIKE 13 WHEN --
22 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS CASE IS
23 ABOUT?
24 A. YES, SIR.
25 Q. SOMEBODY GOT SHOT, RIGHT?
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO?
28 A. I DON'T KNOW THE VICTIM, NO.
1962
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN ABOUT IT WAS?

2 A. YEAH, APPROXIMATELY.
3 Q. WHEN WAS IT APPROXIMATELY?
4 A. LIKE TWO YEARS -- I THOUGHT IT WAS, LIKE, TWO
5 YEARS AGO.
6 Q. ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO?
7 A. OKAY. TWO AND A HALF.
8 Q. WOULD SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, SOUND ABOUT RIGHT TO
9 YOU?
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER -- WERE YOU THERE WHEN IT
12 HAPPENED?
13 A. NO, I WASN'T THERE.
14 Q. YOU WEREN'T PRESENT?
15 A. I WASN'T PRESENT. I WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED THAT.
16 Q. YOU WOULD HAVE WHAT?
17 A. I WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED THAT.
18 Q. YOU WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED BEING SOMEWHERE IF
19 SOMEBODY GOT SHOT?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. YOU LIVE NEAR THERE, DON'T YOU?
22 A. YES, ABOUT THREE BLOCKS.
23 Q. YOU SAID YOU GO BY "SPANKY." ARE YOU BIG SPANKY
24 OR LITTLE SPANKY?
25 A. WELL, I'M BIG SPANKY NOW.
26 Q. OKAY. BUT YOU USED TO BE JUST SPANKY?
27 A. RIGHT.
28 Q. BUT NOW PEOPLE CALL YOU BIG SPANKY BECAUSE
1963
1 THERE'S SOMEONE CALLED LITTLE SPANKY?

2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. SO IF I WAS TO WRITE AN "N" ON THIS EXHIBIT, ON
4 DEFENSE SS, INDICATING YOU WERE NOT PRESENT WHEN THIS
5 CRIME HAPPENED, WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?
6 A. THAT WOULD BE ACCURATE.
7 Q. I'M GOING TO WRITE AN "N" IN PARENTHESES IN RED
8 NEXT TO "BIG SPANKY."
9 MR. BARNES, DO YOU KNOW A WOMAN NAMED
10 GLENNYS BERUMAN?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. SHE'S ABOUT 19 YEARS'OLD. YOU DON'T KNOW HER?
13 A. I DON'T KNOW HER AT ALL. NEVER EVEN HEARD OF
14 HER.
15 Q. YOU DIDN'T JUMP HER INTO THE GANG ABOUT SEVEN
16 YEARS AGO?
17 A. NO. I WOULDN'T -- A GUY WOULDN'T REALLY JUMP IN
18 A GIRL.
19 Q. DO GIRLS GET JUMPED IN?
20 A. NO. I MEAN, A GUY -- A GUY WOULD HURT A GIRL.
21 NOT THAT I'VE SEEN. I HAVEN'T HEARD OF THAT.
22 Q. SO YOU DIDN'T JUMP IN A WOMAN NAMED
23 GLENNYS BERUMAN?
24 A. I WOULDN'T HIT NO GIRL. I'M SORRY FOR LAUGHING,
25 BUT I WOULDN'T HIT NO GIRL.
26 Q. SEVEN YEARS AGO SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN 12. DO YOU
27 REMEMBER BEATING UP A 12-YEAR-OLD GIRL ABOUT 12 YEARS AGO?
28 A. NO. I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY MID-20'S. NO.
1964

2 A. 32.
3 Q. SO HOW OLD WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN SEVEN YEARS AGO?
4 A. ABOUT 27.
~
5 Q. NOT GOOD AT MATH, ARE YOU?

6 A. OH, SORRY. 25.
7 Q. 25. SO AROUND THE AGE OF 25 YOU DON'T REMEMBER
8 BEATING UP A 12-YEAR-OLD?
9 A. NO.
12 CROSS?
13
15 BY MR. TROCHA:
16 Q. HOW MANY SPANKY'S ARE THERE IN SHELLTOWN
17 38th STREET?
18 A. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY NEW ONES, BUT JUST
19 TWO. NO, THERE'S PROBABLY MORE. THERE'S OLDER THAN ME
20 THAT DON'T --
21 Q. THERE'S YOU, CORRECT? DO YOU KNOW WHO LITTLE
22 SPANKY IS?
23 A. I DON'T KNOW. I'VE HEARD OF HIM, BUT I DON'T --
24 I DON'T INTERACT WITH HIM OR NOTHING LIKE THAT.
25 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. YOU DON'T WHAT WITH HIM?
26 THE WITNESS: I DON'T INTERACT OR NOTHING LIKE THAT
27 WITH HIM.
1965
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. WOULD YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE A MEMBER OF
3 SHELLTOWN 3gth STREET?
4 A. NOT NO MORE, NO.
5 Q. WHEN DID YOU STOP BEING A MEMBER?
6 A. ABOUT 2004 OR '5.
7 Q. YOU'VE BEEN CONVICTED OF ATTEMPTED MURDER,
8 CORRECT?
9 A. YES, SIR.
10 Q. WHEN DID THAT TAKE PLACE?
11 A. I WAS LIKE 18. 1997, ABOUT.
12 Q. WERE YOU A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN AT THAT TIME?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. SO AT LEAST FROM '97 TO '04, CORRECT?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ, DO YOU NOT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. YOU SEE HIM HERE IN COURT TODAY?
19 A. I DO.
20 Q. COULD YOU TELL US WHERE HE'S SITTING AND WHAT
21 HE'S WEARING.
22 A. SITTING IN THE BLUE SUIT, BLUE TIE.
23 THE COURT: INDICATING MR. DOMINGUEZ.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. IS HE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38th STREET?
27 A. NOT RECENTLY, NO. I WOULDN'T CONSIDER HIM LIKE
28 THAT, LIKE AN ACTIVE MEMBER.
1966
1 Q. IS HE A FRIEND OF YOURS?
2 A. YEAH, HE'S A FRIEND OF MINE.
3 Q. YOUR ACTIVITY LEVEL IN SHELLTOWN 38th STREET,
4 IS IT THE SAME?
5 A. YES, IT'S THE SAME, BUT --
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. YOU STILL DO JUMP-INS?
10 A. NO. TOO OLD.
11 Q. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID A JUMP-IN?
12 A. I WON'T EVEN BE ABLE~TO REMEMBER.
13 Q. IF YOU WERE TO SEE A PHOTOGRAPH, WOULD THAT HELP
14 REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION, MR. BARNES?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. I'M SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 231. IT'S ON THE
17 BOARD. WE ALSO HAVE THIS PICTURE. I'LL TRADE YOU.
18 DO YOU SEE YOURSELF IN THAT PICTURE, MR. BARNES?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHERE ARE YOU?
21 A. THE MIDDLE, WITH THE GRAY SHIRT.
22 Q. WHO IS -- IF WE'RE LOOKING AT THE PICTURE RIGHT
23 NOW, WHO'S TO THE RIGHT OF YOU IN THAT PICTURE?
~
24 A. TO THE RIGHT OF ME?

25 Q. YES.
26 A. OH, LIKE THIS (INDICATING)?
27 Q. YEAH, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE PICTURE.
28 A. OH. MR. DOMINGUEZ.
1967
1 Q. DO YOU SEE THE GUY IN THE BACK ROW, IN THE FAR

2 LEFT, WITH THE MUSTACHE?
3 A. YES.
5 A. IT LOOKS LIKE MY FRIEND'S LITTLE BROTHER, IF
6 IT'S HIM.
7 Q. LET'S MAKE SURE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME
8 PERSON, MR. BARNES. THIS GUY RIGHT HERE (INDICATING).
9 A. YEAH.
10 Q. WHO IS THAT?
11 A. JONATHAN.
12 Q. JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?
13 A. I DON'T KNOW HIS LAST NAME. I KNOW HIM AS MY
14 FRIEND'S LITTLE BROTHER.
15 Q. DO YOU KNOW HIS NICKNAME?
16 A. NO, I DON'T KNOW HIS,NICKNAME.
17 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD HIM CALLED "CROOKS"?
18 A. I DIDN'T KNOW HIS NICKNAME BECAUSE HE WAS A
19 LITTLE BIT YOUNGER AND I USED TO HANG OUT WITH HIS
20 BROTHER.
21 Q. HIS OLDER BROTHER?
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. WHAT'S MR. DOMINGUEZ'S NICKNAME?
24 A. I GREW UP WITH HIM SINCE WE WERE IN LITTLE
25 LEAGUE, SO I JUST CALL HIM-- I CALL HIM "CHUNKY ...
26 Q. EVER HEARD HIM CALLED "SPEEDY"?
27 A. I NEVER HEARD HIM CALLED THAT.
28 Q. WHERE WAS THIS PICTURE TAKEN?
1968
1 A. I BELIEVE SPRING VALLEY.

2 Q. WHOSE HOUSE?
3 A. IT'S MR. DOMINGUEZ'S HOUSE.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY MUSIC BUSINESS THAT
5 MR. DOMINGUEZ IS INVOLVED IN?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. IS THERE A RECORDING STUDIO AT THIS HOUSE?
8 A. INSIDE, YES.
9 Q. YOU'VE BEEN INSIDE THAT HOUSE?
10 A. YES, SIR.
11 Q. I'LL GET TO THE EXHIBIT IN A SECOND.
12 SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 229 ON THE TELEVISION
13 SCREEN, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHERE THAT WAS TAKEN, MR. BARNES?
14 A. IT LOOKS LIKE THE INSIDE.
15 Q. THAT'S THE INSIDE OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S HOUSE SLASH
16 RECORDING STUDIO, CORRECT?
17 A. IT LOOKS LIKE IT, YES.
18 Q. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WENT TO THAT PLACE?
19 A. I THINK AROUND THIS TIME. I COULDN'T -- YOU
'
20 KNOW, A COUPLE YEARS AGO. I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW LONG IT'S
21 BEEN.
22 Q. WAS THAT PICTURE TAKEN A COUPLE YEARS AGO?
23 A. IT WAS A FEW YEARS AGO.

24 Q. IS THIS HOW THE INSIDE OF THE HOUSE AGAIN LOOKED
25 WHILE YOU WERE THERE?
26 A. PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH GRAFFITI ON THERE, BUT
27 IT -- YOU KNOW, IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THAT ALL THE WAY, NO.
28 IT WAS CHANGED A LITTLE BIT. IT WASN'T THAT BAD YET.
1969
...
1 Q. SO MORE GRAFFITI WOULD COME ON AS THE YEARS WENT
2 BY, I GUESS?
3 A. YEAH, DRAWINGS, THINGS.
4 Q. DID MR. DOMINGUEZ KNOW THIS WAS HAPPENING?
5 A. I NEVER ASKED HIM. I NEVER GOT INTO IT.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ DRAWING ON HIS
10 WALLS?
11 A. NO. I DON'T THINK -- I THINK PEOPLE JUST DID IT
12 ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT SAYING NO~HING, JUST GATHERED UP.
13 Q. THIS WAS HIS HOUSE, CORRECT?
14 A. WELL, IT WAS A LITTLE GARAGE AREA.
15 Q. YOU SEE WHERE IT SAYS "SPEEDY" RIGHT HERE
16 (INDICATING)?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. SO IT DOES SAY "SPEEDY"?
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. WAS THAT THERE WHEN YOU WERE THERE?
21 A. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT WAS
22 ON THE WALLS. IT WAS JUST -- YOU KNOW, I WASN'T READING
23 ANY DETAIL.
24 Q. THE "ST 11
WE SEE, THAT STANDS FOR "SHELLTOWN,"
25 DOES IT NOT?
26 A. I'M PRETTY POSITIVE IT DOES.
27 Q. MR. BARNES, LAST TIME YOU WERE IN COURT YOU WERE
28 ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER
1970
1 DOES. DO YOU REMEMBER THOSE QUESTIONS?

2 A. I DO.
3 Q. WHAT DOES AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER DO?
4 A. JUST SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BE HANGING OUT, YOU
5 KNOW, HANGING OUT ALL DAY, YOU KNOW, WHEREVER THE SPOT IS,
6 WHEREVER EVERYBODY'S CONGREGATING AND GATHERING. I MEAN,
7 THAT'S WHAT I DID WHEN I WAS YOUNG, YOU KNOW.
8 Q. BACK IN THE DAY WHEN YOU WERE RUNNING AROUND
9 WITH SHELLTOWN, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE SPOTS YOU HUNG OUT
10 IN?
11 A. OH, BACK THEN IT WAS -- IT WAS PROBABLY
12 SOUTHCREST -- SOUTHCREST PARK.
13 Q. HOW ABOUT OCEAN VIEW PARK?
14 A. THAT WAS UP AT THE TOP. I LIVE DOWN AT THE
15 BOTTOM.
16 Q. BACK WHEN YOU WERE ACTIVE, THAT WAS THE PLACE
17 YOU WOULD HANG OUT, NOT OCEAN VIEW PARK?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. WAS OCEAN VIEW PARK MORE FOR YOUNGSTERS?
20 A. I LIVED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD,
21 AND IT WAS LIKE UP IN THE TOP OF THE HILL. IT WAS JUST A
22 WHOLE DIFFERENT AREA.
23 Q. THE GANG MEMBERS THAT ARE ACTIVE, DO THEY HANG
24 OUT WITH YOUNGER GANG MEMBERS?
25 A. IF THEY'RE ACTIVE, I'M SURE THEY DO.
26 Q. IF THEY'RE ACTIVE, DO THEY STILL HANG OUT ON THE
27 SET OR IN THE TOWN WHERE THEY'RE CLAIMING?
28 A. YEAH, THEY STILL HANG OUT. A LOT OF PEOPLE HANG
1971
1 OUT STILL.
2 Q. DO THEY COMMIT CRIMES?
3 A. IF YOU'RE STILL ACTIVE? I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ALL
4 OF THEM, BUT I'M -- IF YOU'RE STILL ACTIVE, YOU PROBABLY
5 DO.
6 Q. IT'S PART OF PUTTING IN WORK, RIGHT?
7 A. YEAH, BUT, I MEAN, IF YOU'RE OLDER, NOBODY'S
8 GOING TO TELL YOU TO PUT IN WORK.
9 Q. WHY NOT?
10 A. YOU JUST -- WHO'S GOING TO TELL YOU TO PUT IN
11 WORK? THERE'S NOBODY -- IF YOU'RE THE OLDER ONE, THE
12 YOUNGER ONES ARE NOT GOING TO TELL YOU TO PUT IN WORK.
13 Q. DO THE OLDER ONES TELL THE YOUNGER ONES TO PUT
14 IN WORK?
15 A. NOT NO MORE; IT'S NOT LIKE THAT NO MORE. IT'S
16 LIKE -- YOU DON'T SEE TOO MANY OLDER ONES WITH YOUNGER
17 ONES. THEY PROBABLY DO -- I MEAN, IF YOU WANT TO GET THE
18 LITTLE GUY IN TROUBLE.
19 Q. WE'RE GOING BACK TO YOUR MEMORY OF IT WHEN YOU
~
20 WERE ACTIVE.
21 A. BACK THEN IT WAS MORE LIKE HANGING OUT WITH
22 OLDER GUYS. THAT WAS WAY DIFFERENT.
23 Q. THE YOUNGER GUYS ARE THE ONES THAT PUT IN THE
24 WORK, RIGHT?
25 A. YEAH, I WOULD SAY -- I THINK THEY WOULD.
26 Q. BECAUSE THE OLDER GUYS ALREADY HAVE; IS THAT
27 CORRECT?
28 A. SOME. SOME HAVE. SOME JUST SLIDE BY AND
1972
1 BECOME, YOU KNOW, JUST BY THEIR REPUTATION. THEY NEVER

2 REALLY DO NOTHING.
3 Q. YOU SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, IF SOMEONE'S ACTIVE AND
4 THEY'RE OLDER, THEY'RE NOT RUNNING AROUND PUTTING IN WORK
5 LIKE THE YOUNGSTERS ARE. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
6 A. YEAH, THAT'S FAIR.
7 Q. IF YOU'RE STILL ACTIVE, ARE YOU DRINKING BEER,
8 SAY, IN SOUTHCREST PARK?
9 A. YEAH, I CAN SEE THAT, YEAH.
10 Q. HANGING OUT?
11 A. I CAN SEE THAT.
12 Q. HOW ABOUT DOING GRAFFITI, PUTTING UP TAGS?
13 A. YEAH. IF IT'S GANG GRAFFITI, YEAH.
14 Q. DID YOU PUT UP TAGS WHEN YOU WERE ACTIVE?
15 A. I DIDN'T. MY TAGS COME OUT UGLY. I DIDN'T I
16 WAS NEVER THE ONE WRITING BECAUSE THEY WERE UGLY. YOU
17 EITHER LEARN HOW TO WRITE OR YOU DON'T.
18 Q. SO YOU WERE THERE WHILE SOMEONE ELSE WAS PUTTING
19 UP YOUR TAG FOR YOU?
20 A. RIGHT.
21 Q. AND THAT'S COMMON. I MEAN, IF THERE'S A GROUP
22 OF YOU, ONE OF THEM KIND OF PUTS UP THE PAINT AND PUTS
23 YOUR NAME UNDERNEATH IT?
24 A. RIGHT.
25 Q. BUT YOU'VE GOT TO BE THERE?
26 A. YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE THERE. I'VE SEEN
11
27 PEOPLE PUT UP YOUR NAME AND YOU'RE, LIKE, HEY, WHAT'S
28 GOING ON HERE? ..
1973
1 Q. IS THAT A SIGN OF RESPECT?

2 A. IT'S JUST -- I WOULDN'T EVEN CALL IT A SIGN OF
3 RESPECT. I WOULD GET MAD IF SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW -- LIKE,
4 WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT IF I'M NOT THERE AND I DIDN'T
5 APPROVE OF IT, YOU KNOW?
6 Q. BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU COULD GET IN TROUBLE,
7 RIGHT?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. THE COPS MIGHT COME DOWN AND GO, "I SAW 'SPANKY'
10 ON THE WALL, " AND YOU'RE SPANKY.
11 A. YEAH. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT SOMEBODY MIGHT THINK I
12 WAS THERE, WHICH I MIGHT NOT WANT TO BE THERE AT THE TIME.
13 DON'T PUT ME THERE IF I WASN'T THERE.
14 Q. DO YOU STILL GO OUT AND HANG OUT IN SHELLTOWN?
15 A. NO. I MEAN, I RUN INTO A COUPLE OF YOUNGSTERS
16 HERE AND THERE. I'LL STOP AND SAY HI IF I RECOGNIZE THEM.
17 IF I DON'T RECOGNIZE THEM, I KEEP GOING.
18 Q. I DON'T NEED TO KNOW YOUR ADDRESS OR THE STREET
19 YOU LIVE ON, BUT DO YOU LIVE IN SHELLTOWN?
20 A. IT'S THE OUTSKIRTS. IT'S, LIKE, THE LAST
21 STREET, I WOULD THINK. PEOPLE CALL IT DIFFERENT AREAS.
22 Q. YOU'RE STILL IN THE AREA?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. YOU'RE NOT LIVING IN, LIKE, POWAY OR SOMETHING?
25 A. OH, NO. I LIVE, LIKE -- IT'S A BLOCK OF
26 SHELLTOWN.
27 Q. DO YOU SEE ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS AROUND THAT TOWN?
28 A. NOT NO MORE. THEY'RE NOT -- NONE OF THEM ARE
1974
1 AROUND NO MORE.
2 Q. DO YOU GO AND HANG OUT WITH YOUNGSTERS WHO ARE
3 THERE CLAIMING SHELLTOWN?
4 A. NOT INTENTIONALLY, BUT IF I RUN INTO THEM AT THE
5 PARK AND I RECOGNIZE SOMEBODY, YEAH, I'LL SAY HI AND I'LL
6 HANG OUT A LITTLE BIT.
7 Q. LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY: DO YOU GO TO OTHER
8 PEOPLE'S HOMES IN SHELLTOWN AND DRINK BEER WITH
9 YOUNGSTERS?
10 A. NO, NO.
11 Q. WHY NOT?
12 A. OH, WHY NOT? I'M LIKE A SINGLE DAD. I HAVE MY
13 KIDS ALL THE TIME, MAN. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO.
14 Q. WOULD YOU BRING YOUR KID TO A GANG PARTY?
15 A. NOT TO A GANG PARTY, NO.
16 Q. WHY NOT?
17 A. INTENTIONALLY KNOWING I WAS AT A GANG PARTY, NO.
18 I MEAN, IT'S JUST COMMON SENSE FOR ME. I WOULDN'T WANT
19 THEM -- YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GET DRUNK, FIGHT, YOU KNOW.
20 Q. SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN TO YOUR KID?
21 A. YEAH, EXACTLY.
22 MR. TROCHA: ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR. I'M ALMOST
23 DONE.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, REDIRECT?
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. THANK YOU.
1975
1 CAN I GET THIS ONE, COUNSEL (INDICATING)?

2 MR. TROCHA: OH, YOU JUST WANT THE PICTURE?
5
8 Q. MR. BARNES, YOU WERE LOOKING AT THIS PHOTO
9 EARLIER, 231 --
10 A. YES.
11 Q. -- AND YOU WERE SAYING THAT THIS A RECORDING
12 STUDIO, RIGHT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. YOUR BUDDY HERE, JONATHAN QUINTANILLA -- YOU'RE
15 FRIENDS WITH HIM, RIGHT?
16 A. YEAH, I KNOW HIM. I MET HIM THROUGH MY LITTLE
17 BROTHER -- I MEAN HIS BIGGER BROTHER -- AND IT'S, LIKE,
18 WHEN I CAME HOME, HE WAS OLDER, YOU KNOW, SO I -- YOU
19 KNOW, HE WAS -- I WAS MORE FRIENDS WITH HIS LITTLE
20 BROTHER, BUT, YEAH, I KNOW HIM. I TALK TO HIM.
21 Q. IS HE A RAP ARTIST?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. DO YOU RAP?
24 A. NO, I DON'T RAP.
25 Q. DID YOU EVER TRY?
26 A. I'VE NEVER EVEN TRIED, BUT I JUST KNOW IT'S NOT
27 FOR ME.
28 Q. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THERE WHEN THEY'VE BEEN
1976
1 RECORDING MUSIC?
2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED FRANKIE SANDOVAL?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. WHAT'S HIS NAME?
6 A. HIS RAP NAME IS YOUNG SICC. I GREW UP WITH HIM.
7 Q. HOW ABOUT LITTLE AL? DO YOU KNOW LITTLE AL?
8 A. YEAH. HE'S A RAPPER TOO. I WENT TO A COUPLE OF
9 HIS SHOWS.
10 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THIS PARTY?
11 A. YEAH, YEAH, I REMEMBER IT.
12 Q. DID ANYONE GET BEAT UP THERE?
13 A. NO. THIS WAS A PARTY.
14 Q. YOU GUYS DIDN'T KICK A BUNCH OF PEOPLE'S BUTTS
15 WHILE YOU WERE THERE?
16 A. NO. IT WAS A CELEBRATION. I DON'T REMEMBER FOR
17 WHAT, BUT IT WAS A PARTY. WE DIDN'T GO BEAT SOMEBODY UP.
18 I THINK WE PRETTY MUCH ARE ALL FRIENDS THERE.
19 (DEFENSE EXHIBIT GGG WAS MARKED
22 Q. SHOWING YOU DEFENSE GGG, HAVE YOU SEEN THIS
23 BEFORE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT'S THAT?
26 A. IT'S A C.D., THE COVER-- THE TOP ON THE C.D. OF
27 LITTLE AL'S MUSIC.
28 Q. WHO'S THE ARTIST?
1977
1 A. LITTLE AL.
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO PRODUCED THAT C.D.?
3 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ AND HIS HOOD RAISED ENTERTAINMENT,
4 HIS LABEL.
5 Q. DOES THAT RUN OUT OF THIS PLACE?
6 A. YES, IT DOES.
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DO YOU HAVE PEOPLE'S 1 WITH
'
8 LITTLE AL AT THE HOUSE?
11 Q. DO YOU SEE 234 HERE?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. THIS GUY HERE IN THE BLUE HAT AT THE FOREFRONT
14 ON THE LEFT OF THE PHOTO, WHO'S THAT GUY?
15 A. FRANCISCO SANDOVAL.
16 Q. FRANKIE SANDOVAL?
17 A. YOUNG SICC, YEAH.
18 Q. YOUNG SICC?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. THAT'S NOT LITTLE AL?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. YOU HAVE MET BOTH OF THEM BEFORE?
23 A. YES. I'VE KNOWN HIM SINCE FIRST GRADE AND
24 LITTLE AL, I'VE KNOWN HIM A LONG TIME, ALMOST 20 YEARS.
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER. THANK YOU.
27 MR. TROCHA: JUST A LITTLE BIT.
28 \\
1978
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. IN PEOPLE'S 235, MR. BARNES, THE PERSON IN THE
4 FRONT IS LITTLE AL, CORRECT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. LET'S GO BACK TO 231. WHAT SONG WAS RECORDED
7 THAT NIGHT AT THAT RECORDING STUDIO?
8 A. I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF ANY WAS RECORDED THAT
9 NIGHT.
10 Q. THERE WERE NO RECORDS BEING PRODUCED?
11 A. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS BEFORE I WAS THERE OR
12 WHETHER I LEFT OR -- I COULDN'T TELL. I COULDN'T
13 RECOLLECT -- RECALL ANYBODY IN THE BOOTH.
14 Q. THERE'S A BUNCH OF YOUNG GUYS IN THE FRONT ROW,
15 CORRECT?
16 A. YEAH.
11 11
17 Q. SOME OF THEM ARE THROWING UP 3-8 ; WOULD THAT
18 BE RIGHT?
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. THEY ARE THROWING UP 38, CORRECT?
21 A. YEAH, I SEE SOME OF THEM, YES.
22 Q. YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ THROWING UP A 2-0, RIGHT?
23 A. WELL, IT'S LIKE THIS~ (INDICATING), BUT, YEAH,
24 HE Is YEAH' "2-0."
25 Q. NOW, HANGING OUT AND DRINKING WITH YOUNGSTERS
26 WHILE THROWING UP GANG SIGNS, IS THAT INACTIVE OR ACTIVE
27 GANG MEMBERSHIP?
28 A. IT WILL BE WRONG TO SAY JUST ACTIVE, YOU KNOW,
1979
1 BECAUSE IF YOU SEE ANYBODY STILL IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD

2 TODAY, IT'S SO EASY TO JUST GO LIKE THIS, (INDICATING),
11
3 LIKE, HEY, WHAT'S UP? 11 SO, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE MORE
4 ACTIVE IF YOU SEE THEM, LIKE, ~OING, LIKE (INDICATING),
5 YOU KNOW?
6 BUT, LIKE, "HEY, WHAT'S UP? 11 -- I COULDN'T TELL
7 YOU, YOU KNOW. A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST THROW IT UP JUST TO
8 THROW IT UP LIKE THAT, BUT YOU COULDN'T DEFINITELY DEFINE
9 ACTIVE ON JUST THAT.
10 Q. IF THIS WAS A JUMP-IN, WOULD YOU ADMIT THAT YOU
11 JUMPED PEOPLE IN?
12 A. IF IT WAS -- WE'RE TOO OLD TO JUMP PEOPLE IN.
13 Q. YOU ARE?
14 A. YEAH. I MEAN, YOU DON'T DO THAT. I MEAN, YOU
15 WOULD HURT SOMEBODY NOW, YOU KNOW. YOU'RE OLDER. YOU DO
16 THAT WHEN YOU'RE YOUNGER.
17 Q. BUT IT'S THE OLDER GUYS THAT JUMP PEOPLE IN,
18 RIGHT?
19 A. NO, NOT THAT OLD.
20 Q. I MEAN, WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT AN OLD FOLKS HOME,
21 ARE WE, MR. BARNES?
22 A. NO.
24 THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE ANSWER WILL STAND.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. IS ANYONE IN THAT PICTURE OVER THE AGE OF 40?
27 A. NO. ABOUT 30.
28 Q. YOU WOULD CONSIDER THAT TOO OLD TO DO A JUMP-IN?
1980
1 A. IF THEY WERE LIKES 13, YEAH. THAT'S A MAN

2 AGAINST A BOY. I THINK YOU'D HURT THEM.
3 Q. YOU CAN JUDGE HOW HARD YOU WANT TO HIT SOMEBODY,
4 RIGHT?
5 A. YEAH, BUT THE JUMP-INS, THEY'RE LIKE FOR REAL.
6 I MEAN, I GOT HIT PRETTY HARD.
7 Q. IT'S A BIG DEAL THOUGH, RIGHT?
8 A. I THINK IT JUST HAPPENS. IT'S NOT LIKE A BIG
9 DEAL. YOU DON'T PLAN IT OR NOT.
10 Q. IT'S A BIG DEAL FOR THE GUY GETTING JUMPED IN?
11 A. OH, YEAH.
12 Q. JUMP-INS HAPPEN ON 3-8 DAY?
13 A. NO, IT WILL HAPPEN ON JUST -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE
14 OR SOMETHING. YOU DON'T PLAN A JUMP-IN.
15 Q. YOU DON'T?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. SO NOBODY GETS JUMPED IN ON 3-8 DAY?
18 A. THEY PROBABLY HAVE, BUT YOU DON'T PICK A DATE.
19 YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HANGING OUT., "I'M READY." THEY MIGHT
20 LIKE YOU. YOU DON'T PICK A DATE FOR IT. IT'S NOT LIKE AN
21 APPOINTMENT OR NOTHING.
22 Q. I KNOW YOUR MEMORY ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. IF
23 THIS HAPPENED TWO YEARS AGO AND YOU CAN'T TELL US
24 REALLY -- WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THAT NIGHT --
25 A. I SAID IT WAS A CELEBRATION, A PARTY.
26 Q. SO YOU SAY. WHAT WERE YOU DOING A YEAR BEFORE
27 THAT?
28 A. A YEAR BEFORE THAT? I DON'T KNOW. I COULDN'T
1981
1 TELL YOU. I DON'T KNOW.

2 Q. IS THERE A REASON WHY YOUR MEMORY'S POOR?
3 A. NO.
4 MR. TROCHA: CAN WE GO SIDEBAR JUST FOR ONE MINUTE?
5 THE COURT: SIDEBAR RULE, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
6 MR. BARNES, JUST SIT RIGHT THERE, IF YOU WOULD.
7 WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH YOU.
8 WE'RE OFF THE RECORD.
10 THE COURT: THANK YOU. BACK ON THE RECORD.
11 BY MR. TROCHA:
12 Q. MR. BARNES, I HAVE Tb ASK, HAVE YOU HAD PROBLEMS
13 WITH HEROIN OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS?
14 A. NOT PROBLEMS, BUT I HAVE -- I HAVE DONE IT, BUT
15 I DON'T KNOW ABOUT PROBLEMS.
16 Q. YOU DON'T THINK YOU'RE A HEROIN ADDICT?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. YOU'VE BEEN USING FOR AT LEAST THE LAST FIVE
19 YEARS THOUGH, RIGHT?
20 A. WELL, NOT LIKE STRUNG OUT FOR FIVE YEARS.
21 Q. AGREED, YOU'RE NOT USING EVERY SINGLE DAY. DO
22 YOU THINK THAT MAY HAVE AFFECTED YOUR ABILITY TO REMEMBER
23 THINGS WHILE YOU WERE USING HE~OIN?
24 A. YOU THINK I HAVE A POOR MEMORY. I DON'T

25 THINK --
26 Q. I'M JUST ASKING YOU.
27 A. I DON'T KNOW. I'D HAVE TO -- I HAVE TO HAVE,
28 LIKE, STUDIES OR SOMETHING. I THOUGHT I HAD A GOOD
1982
1 MEMORY.
2 Q. WAS YOUR MEMORY BETTER WHEN YOU WERE A KID THAN
3 IT IS TODAY?
4 A. I'D HAVE TO STUDY IT. I DON'T KNOW. I'M PRETTY
5 SURE AS YOU GET OLDER
6 Q. I APPRECIATE THAT.
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ANY FURTHER EXAMINATION?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUST BRIEFLY.
11

14 Q. MR. BARNES, AS FAR AS GANGS GO, GANG MEMBERSHIP,
15 IS 30 OLD TO BE IN A GANG?
16 A. NOT TOO OLD, BUT IT'S I MEAN, TO BE DOING
17 CRAZY LITTLE THINGS LIKE JUMP-INS, YEAH.
18 Q. WOULDN'T YOU SAY A 30- TO 35-YEAR-OLD IS IN THE
19 TWILIGHT OF HIS CAREER AS A GANG MEMBER?
20 A. I WOULDN'T.
21 Q. DO YOU KNOW A LOT OF GANG MEMBERS WHO ARE STILL
22 ACTIVE AT 40?
23 A. NOT TOO MANY, NO.
26 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU.
'
27 THE COURT: MR. BARNES, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU MAY STEP
28 DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE DON'T DISCUSS WHAT
1983
1 WENT ON IN COURT WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN INVESTIGATORS OR

2 THE LAWYERS UNTIL THE TRIAL IS OVER, OKAY?
8 THE COURT: MR. BARNES HAS LEFT THE COURTROOM.
9 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE TESTIMONY REGARDING
10 HIS USE OF HEROIN WAS FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF HOW IT
11 MIGHT AFFECT HIS ABILITY TO REMEMBER, ABILITY TO RELATE
12 THINGS, CREDIBILITY, IN OTHER WORDS, NO OTHER PURPOSE.
13 THANK YOU.
16 DEFENSE CALLS EVELYN SOTO.
18
19 EVELYN SOTO,
22
24 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT UP HERE IN
THE COURT: UP HERE NEXT TO ME IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
r 26
27 GOOD AFTERNOON.
1984
1 THE CLERK: STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND SPELL YOUR LAST
2 NAME FOR THE RECORD.
3 THE WITNESS: EVELYN SOTO, S-0-T-0.
6 MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
8
11 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. SOTO.
13 Q. HOW ARE YOU?
14 A. GOOD.
15 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER NAME BESIDES EVELYN?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. YOU GO BY SOMETHING ELSE?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. IS IT -- HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE NAME "LITTLE
20 ONE"?
21 A. A LONG TIME AGO, BUT --
22 Q. YOU'RE "LITTLE ONE"?
23 A. YEAH, "LITTLE" -- YEAH.
25 A. I'M 22 NOW.
26 Q. 22?
27 A. YEAH.
1985
1 A. NO.
2 Q. DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO GOT KILLED IN
3 OCEAN VIEW PARK ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO?
~
4 A. WELL, I JUST HEARD, BUT NOTHING -- I WASN'T

5 THERE OR ANYTHING.
6 Q. YOU WEREN'T THERE THAT NIGHT?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. YOU SURE?
9 A. YES, I'M SURE.
10 Q. IF I PUT AN "N" -- YOU SEE THIS "LITTLE ONE" ON
11 EXHIBIT 55? IF I PUT AN "N" THERE INDICATING YOU WEREN'T
12 PRESENT, WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?
13 A. YES.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PUTTING AN "N" ON EXHIBIT SS.
16 Q. DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE FROM SHELLTOWN?
17 A. NOT EVERYBODY.
18 Q. YOU KNOW SOME PEOPLE?
19 A. NOT REALLY.
20 Q. DO YOU KNOW ANY OTHER PEOPLE WHO GO BY "LITTLE
21 ONE"?
22 A. NO.
23 Q. YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE?
24 A. I GUESS.
25 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED ANDRES LOPEZ?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. NEVER MET HIM BEFORE?
28 A. NO.
1986

3 CROSS?
4 MR. TROCHA: ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
7
..
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. MS. SOTO, WHO IS LUIS LOPEZ?
11 A. I DON'T KNOW.
12 Q. YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH HIM ON
13 JANUARY 22nd OF THIS YEAR, CORRECT?
14 A. WHO?
15 Q. LUIS LOPEZ.
16 A. LUIS LOPEZ, NO. I DON'T RECALL THAT NAME.
17 Q. ON 975 MARINA PARKWAY? IT'S IN SHELLTOWN, ISN'T
18 IT?
19 A. I DON'T KNOW. NO, I . DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 265 IS SHELLTOWN, CORRECT?
21 A. I GUESS, IF IT SAYS RIGHT THERE.
22 Q. YOU WERE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN, WERE YOU NOT?
23 A. WELL, NO, NOT LIKE -- NO.
24 Q. YOU WEREN'T?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. HOW DID YOU GET THE NAME "LITTLE ONE"?
27 A. THAT'S WHAT MY FRIENDS CALL ME.
28 Q. YOUR FRIENDS WHO ARE SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS,
1987
1 CORRECT?
2 A. NOT ALL OF THEM PARTICULARLY.
3 Q. WHAT ABOUT YOUR FRIEND MANUAL VISCARA?
4 A. THAT'S MY EX.
5 Q. YOU WERE ARRESTED WITH MR. VISCARA ON
6 SEPTEMBER 29th OF 2009, CORRECT?
7 A. I WASN'T ARRESTED WITH HIM.
8 Q. YOU WERE ARRESTED ON THE SAME DAY?
9 A. NOT THE SAME DAY.
10 Q. YOU WERE NOT ARRESTED ON SEPTEMBER 29th OF
11 2009 --
12 A. I DON'T REMEMBER OR RECALL THAT.
13 Q. -- DURING A SEARCH OF YOUR RESIDENCE?
14 A. OH, THAT DAY, YEAH.
15 Q. YES, THAT DAY.
16 A. WELL, YEAH, BUT THEY TOOK HIM IN FIRST, THEN
17 THEY TOOK ME LIKE DAYS LATER, NOT THE SAME DAY.
18 Q. WHAT'S MANUEL VISCARA'S NICKNAME?
19 A. WELL, HE JUST GOES BY "MANNY," THAT'S IT.
20 Q. HE'S A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38th STREET,
21 CORRECT?
22 A. YEAH.
23 Q. IN FACT, HE'S A FRIEND OF MR. DOMINGUEZ'S,
24 CORRECT?
25 A. I GUESS.
26 Q. THAT'S HOW YOU MET MR. DOMINGUEZ, RIGHT?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ HERE IN COURT?
1988
1 A. YES.
2 Q. CAN YOU TELL US WHERE HE'S SITTING AND WHAT HE'S
3 WEARING.
..
4 A. HE'S AT THE LEFT SIDE -- WELL, MY LEFT SIDE.
5 Q. WHY AREN'T YOU LOOKING AT HIM, MS. SOTO?
6 A. HE'S OVER THERE (INDICATING).
7 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, COULD THE RECORD REFLECT
8 SHE'S IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT?
9 THE COURT: YES.
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. WHAT'S THE DEFENDANT'S NICKNAME?
12 A. I JUST KNOW HIM BY "SPEEDY." THAT'S IT.
13 Q. AND YOU MET HIM AT MR. VISCARA'S HOUSE, CORRECT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHERE YOU WERE LIVING AT THE TIME?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED AT THE TIME, YOU TOLD
18 THE POLICE OFFICERS YOU CLAIMED SHELLTOWN 38th STREET.
19 A. I NEVER ADMITTED. THEY WROTE THAT.
20 Q. THE DETECTIVE THAT WROTE THAT WAS MARTHA GASCA,
21 CORRECT?
22 A. I DON'T RECALL HER NAME. I DON'T REMEMBER.
23 Q. IT WAS A WOMAN?
24 A. IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO.
25 Q. IT WAS LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO.
26 A. WELL, FOR ME IT'S A LONG TIME AGO BECAUSE I
27 DON'T RECALL.
28 Q. SO WHEN YOU SAID YOU DON'T CLAIM OR GO BY
1989
1 "LITILE ONE" A LONG TIME AGO, WAS THAT A YEAR AND A HALF
2 AGO?
3 A. IT WAS MORE THAN THAT.
4 Q. SEPTEMBER 29th OF 2009 IS MAYBE A YEAR AND A
5 HALF AGO.
6 A. I GUESS.
7 Q. ON AUGUST 6th OF 200~ YOU WERE ALSO CONTACTED
8 AT MANUEL VISCARA'S HOUSE, CORRECT?
9 A. AUGUST? I DON'T RECALL IT.
10 Q. AT THE TIME THE POLICE CAME TO YOUR DOOR AGAIN
11 ABOUT A DISTURBANCE CALL.
12 A. I DON'T KNOW.
13 Q. HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE WITH MANUEL VISCARA?
14 A. JUST, LIKE, FOR A YEAR OR LESS THEN A YEAR.
15 Q. SO YOU LIVED WITH A SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBER FOR A
16 YEAR, BUT YOU NEVER CLAIMED SHELLTOWN 38th STREET?
17 A. NO, CORRECT.
18 Q. WHO IS CEASAR QUIJANO, Q-U-I-J-A-N-0?
19 A. I DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. RAY NAVA?
22 Q. SHELLTOWN 38th STREET GANG MEMBERS?
23 A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW THEM.
24 Q. WHO IS "TOKES"?
25 A. I DON'T KNOW.
26 Q. WHO IS "STALKER"?
28 Q. WHO IS "SMOKEY"?
1990

2 Q. THESE ARE PEOPLE YOUR AGE, MS. SOTO.
3 A. BUT I DON'T KNOW THEM. I NEVER HANG AROUND WITH
4 THEM.
6 EVIDENCE.
7 THE COURT: OVERRULED. SUBSTANTIALLY HER AGE.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING THE NIGHT SMOKEY WAS KILLED?
10 A. I WAS AT MY HOUSE.
11 Q. SO YOU DO KNOW SMOKEY?
12 A. NO, I DON'T KNOW HIM. I'VE NEVER MET HIM
13 BEFORE.
14 Q. BUT YOU KNOW THE DAY HE WAS KILLED ON?
15 A. WELL, BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S TELLING IT HERE.
16 Q. SO WHAT DAY WAS THAT?
17 A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW THE
18 DATE WHEN HE WAS KILLED. I WASN'T PRESENT AT THE TIME. I
19 WASN'T THERE, SO WHY SHOULD I -- I BELIEVE PROBABLY AT MY
20 HOUSE. I DON'T RECALL THAT DAY. I WASN'T AT THE PARK,
21 THOUGH.
22 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING AT YOUR HOUSE?
'
23 A. I DON'T KNOW. WHAT I USUALLY DO, JUST HANGING
24 OUT AT MY HOUSE, WATCH T.V.
25 Q. WHAT WERE YOU WATCHING?
26 A. I DON'T RECALL. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT'S A LONG
27 TIME AGO.
28 Q. WAS IT YOUR HOUSE OR WAS IS MANUEL VISCARA'S
1991
1 HOUSE?
2 A. IT PROBABLY WAS AT MY MOM'S HOUSE.
3 Q. NOT MANNY'S HOUSE?
4 A. NO. I WAS LIVING AT~MY MOM'S HOUSE.
5 Q. WHERE DO YOU CURRENTLY LIVE? I DON'T WANT TO
6 KNOW YOUR ADDRESS BUT THE PART OF TOWN YOU LIVE IN.
7 A. RIGHT NOW WE JUST MOVED BY GAMMA.
8 Q. GAMMA STREET?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. SO YOU STILL LIVE IN SHELLTOWN?
11 A. YES. WE JUST MOVED, LIKE, NOT EVEN A MONTH AGO.
12 Q. NOBODY CALLS YOU "LITTLE ONE" ANYMORE?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. WHY DID THEY CALL YOU "LITTLE ONE" TO BEGIN
15 WITH?
16 A. I DON'T KNOW.
17 Q. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING SHELLTOWN
18 38?
19 A. NO, NO.
20 Q. ARE ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS GANG MEMBERS?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. INCLUDING MANUEL VISCARA?
23 A. THAT'S MY EX-BOYFRIEND.
24 Q. SO HE'S THE ONLY GANG MEMBER THAT
25 A. THAT'S THE ONLY ONE.
28 FURTHER DIRECT?
1992

4 Q. YOU SAID THAT YOU MET MY CLIENT, JOSE DOMINGUEZ,
5 AT MANNY'S HOUSE.
6 A. MM-HMM.
7 Q. HOW OLD IS MANNY?
8 A. HE'S OLD.
9 Q. HOW OLD?
10 A. ABOUT 40. I DON'T KNOW. HE'S ABOUT TO BE 40
11 OR -- I DON'T KNOW.
12 Q. HE'S 40 YEARS OLD?
13 A. PROBABLY RIGHT NOW. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW
14 WHEN HIS BIRTHDAY IS.
16
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. WELL, YOU AND MANNY WERE ARRESTED, WHAT, A YEAR
20 AND A HALF AGO?
21 A. AND WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THAT?
22 Q. WELL, YOU WERE, CORRECT?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. WE JUST HEARD YOU WERE ARRESTED
25 A. WELL, I WAS ARRESTED BUT LIKE A FEW DAYS AFTER
26 HE GOT ARRESTED, RIGHT?
27 Q. OKAY. AND YOU LATER PLED GUILTY TO RECEIVING
28 STOLEN PROPERTY, RIGHT?
1993
1 A. BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

2 Q. BECAUSE YOU WERE GUILTY?
3 A. NO, I WASN'T GUILTY. I WASN'T OVER THERE
4 JACKING PEOPLE OR WHATEVER HE DID.
5 Q. OH, SO HE WAS STOCKPILING STOLEN PROPERTY IN HIS
6 HOUSE?
7 A. YEAH, SO IT WAS AT THE HOUSE WHERE WE WERE
8 STAYING AT.
9 Q. AND HE'S A SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBER?
10 A. OKAY.
11 Q. OVER THE AGE OF 40?
12 A. OKAY.
13 Q. COMMITTING CRIMES?
~ 14 A. ALL RIGHT. AND?
15 Q. ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT?
16 A. WELL, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? WHAT DO YOU
17 WANT ME TO DO?
18 Q. WERE YOU SITTING THERE GOING, "THIS GUY IS JUST
19 TOO OLD TO BE COMMITTING CRIMES"?
20 A. WELL, I WASN'T THINKING. I WASN'T -- I DON'T
21 KNOW. JUST STUPID, I GUESS, YOU KNOW. EVERYBODY MAKES
22 MISTAKES
23 Q. AGREED.
24 A. -- RIGHT?
27 THE COURT: MS. SOTO, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO COURT.
28 YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE DON'T
1994
1 TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON IN COURT OR WHAT YOU WERE ASKED

2 ABOUT WITH ANYBODY EXCEPT THE INVESTIGATORS OR THE LAWYERS
3 UNTIL THE TRIAL IS OVER, OKAY?
5 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD DAY.
6 THE WITNESS: YOU, TOO.
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BRIEF SIDEBAR OFF THE RECORD?
8 THE COURT: YES. SIDEBAR RULE'S IN EFFECT, FOLKS.
9 THANK YOU.
11 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AGAIN.
12 WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD. I APPRECIATE, AS ALWAYS, YOUR
13 CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS CASE. I KNOW
r 14 YOU'VE BEEN GIVING IT THAT KIND OF ATTENTION.
15 WE WERE TALKING SCHEDULING, TO NOBODY'S GREAT
16 SURPRISE. I AM APOLOGETIC FOR INJECTING A PERSONAL NEED
17 INTO THIS CASE, BUT I BROKE A TOOTH LAST NIGHT AND I'VE
18 GOT AN EMERGENCY DENTAL APPOINTMENT FIRST THING IN THE
19 MORNING, AT 7:20. IT MEANS WE'RE GOING TO START A LITTLE
20 BIT LATER TOMORROW. WE'LL START AT 9:30 TOMORROW. I
21 APOLOGIZE TO COUNSEL AND JURORS FOR HAVING TO DO THAT.
22 WE HAVE ONE VERY BRIEF MATTER THAT WAS SET
23 TOMORROW MORNING. IT'S A STATUS CONFERENCE. IT'S
24 UNRELATED TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. IT'S
25 ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT TRIAL THAT WE HAVE WHERE I'M JUST
26 MEETING WITH COUNSEL TO FIRM UP THE SCHEDULE, SO THAT WILL
27 BE NOT A LENGTHY MATTER.
28 THE WITNESSES THAT ARE GOING TO BE CALLED NEXT
1995
1 BY THE DEFENSE, NO ONE OF THEM COULD BE COMPLETED IN HALF

2 AN HOUR AND I THINK IT'S BETTER, GIVEN THE TERRITORY THAT
3 WE'VE COVERED TODAY AND THE TERRITORY THAT THOSE WITNESSES
4 WILL COVER TOMORROW, TO TRY TO HEAR THEM CONTINUOUSLY.
5 SO WITH THAT, LET US PLAN ON RECESSING RIGHT NOW
6 UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:30.
7 YES, SIR? MR. --
8 JUROR NO. 9: IS FRIDAY IS STILL AN OFF DAY?
9 THE COURT: FRIDAY IS STILL AN OFF DAY. MY SENSE
10 ABOUT THE SCHEDULING IS THIS: WE'LL HEAR FROM DEFENSE
11 WITNESSES SUBSTANTIALLY ALL OF TOMORROW. I CONTEMPLATE IT
12 WILL TAKE US UP TO AT LEAST NOW OR UNTIL 4:30 TOMORROW.
13 WE'LL BE DARK ON FRIDAY. WE'LL HEAR FROM SOME MORE
r 14 WITNESSES ON MONDAY, AND THEN TUESDAY WE'RE DARK, AND THEN
15 WHAT'S COUNSELS' SENSE AS TO WEDNESDAY?
16 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD EXPECT TO BE CLOSING ON
17 WEDNESDAY.
18 THE COURT: SO WE'RE EXPECTING TO -- I'LL NEED TO
19 SPEND SOME TIME WITH COUNSEL TO GO OVER THE JURY
20 INSTRUCTIONS. WE'LL BE EXPECTING TO GET THE CASE TO YOU
21 WEDNESDAY OR THURSDAY AT THE LATEST.
22 IT'S AN IMPORTANT CASE. COUNSEL WILL HAVE SOME
23 TIME TO MAKE ARGUMENTS. THEY'RE BOTH, AS YOU CAN SEE,
24 WELL-PREPARED AND WELL-CONVERSANT, AND I THINK THAT THEIR
25 VIEWS WILL BE HELPFUL, AND I THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED
26 ATTENTION.
28 CHAIRS. LET'S PLAN ON 9:30 TOMORROW MORNING. THANK YOU.
1996

6 COUNSEL, THANK YOU. FEEL FREE TO LEAVE
7 MATERIALS ON COUNSEL TABLE. WHATEVER I HAVE GOING ON
8 TOMORROW BY WAY OF THAT STATUS, I'LL BE MEETING WITH
9 COUNSEL IN CHAMBERS IN THAT CASE AND WE'LL BE UNDERWAY
10 TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:30.
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: JUDGE,,ONE LAST FAVOR BEFORE WE
12 GO?
13 THE COURT: SURE.
r 14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CAN YOU ORDER MY WITNESSES BACK?
15 THE COURT: SURE.
17 THE COURT: NAMES?
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DIANA BANUELOS, SIRIA FORD AND
19 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
20 THE COURT: SURE. BRING THEM IN, PLEASE. DO THEY
21 ALL SPEAK ENGLISH?
25 THE COURT: THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND
26 GENTLEMEN. WHO IS MS. BANUELOS?
27 MS. BANUELOS: (INDICATING.)
28 THE COURT: MS. BANUELOS, THANK YOU.
1997
1 AND WHO IS MS. FORD?

2 MS. FORD: (INDICATING.)
3 THE COURT: MS. FORD, THANK YOU.
4 SIR, YOUR NAME IS WHAT, PLEASE?
5 MR. C. MARTINEZ: CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
6 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. WE
7 HAD HOPED TO GET YOU ON AND OFF THE WITNESS STAND TODAY.
8 1
THAT DIDN T HAPPEN. 1
I M GUARANTEEING YOU THAT UNLESS THE
9 LAWYERS CHANGE SOMETHING YOU 1 LL BE 1, 2, 3 TOMORROW
10 MORNING, STARTING AT 9:30. I 1 M GOING TO ORDER EACH OF YOU
11 TO COME BACK TO THIS COURTROOM WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW,
12 JUST BE HERE AT 9:30 TOMORROW MORNING.
13 DO YOU EACH UNDERSTAND THE ORDER?
14 MS. BANUELOS: YES.
15 MS. FORD: YES.
16 MR. C. MARTINEZ: YES, YOUR HONOR.
1
17 THE COURT: FOLKS, THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE LL SEE YOU
18 THEN.
19 MY THANKS TO BOTH COUNSEL. RECESS UNTIL
20 TOMORROW MORNING.
22 * * *
23
24
25
26
27
28
3
4 I, RINDY M. ORMROD, RPR, CSR NO. 6278, OFFICIAL
'
8 HELD IN THE FOREGOING CASE, PEOPLE VS. DOMINGUEZ, AND THAT

9 THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT, VOLUME 15, PAGES 1766 THROUGH
10 1997, INCLUSIVE, IS A FULL , TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPTION
11 OF THE PROCEEDINGS .
13 OF AUGUST, 2011.
14
15
16
17
18
19
RINDY M. ORM ' OD, RPR, CSR NO . 6278
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
r

DIVISION ONE
r
r. THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE
OF CALIFORNIA,
)
) HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS,
r
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. D060019
r vs.
)
)
) SUPERIOR COURT
) NO. SCD230596
r DEFENDANT AND
APPELLANT.
)
)
) TRIAL
r REPORTER'S APPEAL TRANSCRIPT

r VOLUME 16
APRIL 14, 2011
r_ PAGES 1998 THROUGH 2246
r APPEARANCES :
r FOR THE PLAINTIFF

AND RESPONDENT:
KAMALA D. HARRIS
ATTORNEY GENERAL
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r. SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92101

r. AND APPELLANT:
r
r.
r. REPORTED BY: PEGGY C. SIINO, CSR NO. 6263
r.
r
r DEPARTMENT 48 BON . CHARLES G . ROGERS , JUDGE

)
r OF CALIFORNIA, )
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
r ______________________________
DEFENDANT. )
)
)
APRIL 14, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES :
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY
r 330 WEST BROAD~Y, SUITE 750


RETAINED COUNSEL

r
r
r
r
WITNESSES

PAGE

2006
2009

2019
2020
r SIRIA FORD

2021
2041
r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 2081

2088
2092

2110
2126

2140
2141
r VICTOR DOMINGUEZ

2144
2150
r
r
r
r
WITNESSES
r DIANA BANUELOS
PAGE

2152
2169

2196
2199

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 2203
r LARRY ALTON THOMPSON

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 2227
r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 2228
r
r
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r
CASE NO. SCD230596

r DEFENSE UU
DEFENSE VV
PHOTOGRAPH OF UNION CARD
2207
2207
r DEFENSE WW PHOTOGRAPH OF DEFENDANT AT WORK 2207
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r 1998
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011; 9:54AM
r 2
r
r 5
6
r 7
8
ARE PRESENT.
I SEE THAT ALL COUNSEL AND PARTIES
NO MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.
r 9
10
ADDRESSING BOTH COUNSEL AND MR. DOMINGUEZ, AS
YOU KNOW, WE ARE HONORED TO HAVE JUDGES AND JUDICIAL
r 11 OFFICERS FROM THE COUNTRY OF MEXICO, THE REPUBLIC OF
r 12
13
MEXICO, OBSERVING OUR PROCEEDINGS THIS MORNING.
WHO THESE FOLKS ARE IN THE BACK OF THE COURTROOM.
THAT'S
THEY
r 14
15
ARE RECEIVING A SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION WITH THE
HEADPHONES, AND WE'RE HONORED TO HAVE YOU ALL HERE.
r 16
17
I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE JUST A MOMENT AND
INTRODUCE THESE COUNSEL TO YOU FOLKS, AND THEN THERE'S A
r 18 MATTER I NEED TO SPEAK WITH COUNSEL ABOUT BEFORE WE
r 19
20
BRING THE JURORS IN.
THE PROSECUTION IN THIS CASE IS REPRESENTED BY
r 21
22
THE SAN DIEGO DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, DEPUTY
DISTRICT ATTORNEY KRISTIAN TROCHA. MR. TROCHA, IF YOU
r 23
24
WOULD.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING.
r 25
26
THE COURT: MR. DOMINGUEZ IS REPRESENTED BY
ATTORNEY MR. MATTHEW SPEREDELOZZI. MR. SPEREDELOZZI,
r 27 WOULD YOU DO ME THE COURTESY OF INTRODUCING YOURSELF AND
r 28 YOUR CLIENT TO OUR GUESTS.
r
1999
1 MR . SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU , YOUR HONOR . MY

2 NAME IS MATTHEW J . SPEREDELOZZI . MY CLIENT IS
3 MR. FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ . WELCOME .
4 THE COURT : WE ARE IN THE PRESENTATION OF THE
5 DEFENSE EVIDENCE . BEFORE WE BEGIN TAKING TESTIMONY , I
6 NEED TO CALL TO DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE PROSECUTION'S
7 ATTENTION THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION :
8 A BAILIFF APPROACHED ME IN THE HALLWAY THIS
9 MORNING AND SAID THAT AFTER COURT RECESSED YESTERDAY ,
10 ONE OF OUR 16 JURORS APPROACHED A COURT PERSONNEL AND
11 EXPRESSED CONCERN OVER WHAT THAT J UROR HAD PERCEIVED AS
12 POSS I BLE GANG MEMBERS BEING IN THE AUDIENCE OF THE
13 COURTROOM DURING THE TRIAL AND WAS CONCERNED AGAIN ABOUT
14 PERSONAL SAFETY ISSUES .
15 WHEN I SAY "AGA I N," WE HAVEN ' T HAD ANY PREVI OUS
16 EXPRESSIONS OF CONCERN , BUT I REMEMBER I ADDRESSED THIS
17 WITH THEM IN VOIR DIRE. I KNOW THAT MEMBERS OF
18 MR . DOMINGUEZ ' FAMILY HAVE BEEN IN THE COURTROOM
19 THROUGHOUT THE PROCEEDINGS .
20 I ALSO NOTICED , BUT DON ' T KNOW HIS CONNECTION
21 TO THE CASE , THAT FROM TIME TO TIME DURING THE
22 PROCEEDINGS , HE MAY BE A FAMILY MEMBER, BUT A
23 PARTICULARLY MUSCULAR YOUNG MAN WITH A SHAVED HEAD HAS
24 BEEN BACK THERE IN THE COURTROOM. I T MAY BE THAT
25 PERSON ' S OCCASIONAL PRESENCE THAT HAS THE JUROR
26 CONCERNED.
27 WHEN I CHOSE THE J URY, OF COURSE , I TOLD THEM

28 THAT THERE ARE SOME CASES WHERE THE J URORS ' SAFETY IS
r 2000
r 1 JEOPARDIZED BY THEIR SERVICE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM,
r 2 IN MY VIEW.
r 3 MR. TROCHA, IS THERE ANY INFORMATION THAT
4 YOU'RE AWARE OF IN THE PRESENCE OF THE POLICE OR THE
r 5
6
PROSECUTION THAT WOULD CAUSE THAT STATEMENT TO BE
INACCURATE?
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA: I HAVEN'T HEARD ANY THREATS, BUT I
HAVE SEEN AT LEAST A HALF A DOZEN DOCUMENTED GANG
r 9
10
MEMBERS IN THE HALLWAYS AND INSIDE THE COURT FROM TIME
TO TIME.
r 11 THE COURT: MAY I ASK --
12 MR. TROCHA: SOME OF THEM ARE ALSO THE DEFENSE

r 13 WITNESSES.
r 14
15
THE COURT: LET ME BEGIN AGAIN. IT HAS BEEN MY
EXPERIENCE FROM PAST CASES INVOLVING THESE STREET GANGS
r 16 THAT THE COURT AND THE JURORS ARE NOT REGARDED AS
17 ENEMIES BY THE STREET GANG. THE POLICE MAY BE, THE
r 18 PROSECUTION WITNESSES MAY BE, PARTICULARLY IF THEY ARE
r 19
20
MEMBERS FROM THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.
WHAT I WOULD ASK MR. TROCHA IS THAT YOU MAKE
r 21
22
INQUIRY, SPECIFIC INQUIRY OF THE APPROPRIATE DETECTIVES
AND POLICE PEOPLE, TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY REASON IN THIS
r 23
24
CASE THAT THE STATEMENT THAT I'VE JUST MADE IS NOT
ACCURATE. AND PLEASE LET US KNOW THAT WHEN YOU CAN
r 25 TODAY, PERHAPS AFTER THE NOON RECESS.
r 26
27
I'M OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, BUT MY THOUGHT IS TO
SIMPLY TELL THE JURORS, IN AN OFFHANDED AND AS LOW-KEY
28 WAY AS I CAN, THAT -- I'M GOING TO INTRODUCE THEM TO OUR
r
r
2001
1
1 HONORED GUESTS, OF COURSE -- BUT TO EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT
l
2 THERE ARE PEOPLE IN AND OUT OF THE COURTROOM. WE HAVE l
3 NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEIR SAFETY IS JEOPARDIZED.
4 IF THAT WERE TO CHANGE, WE WOULD CERTAINLY LET YOU KNOW l
5 AND CAN EVERYBODY NOT LET THOSE CONCERNS AFFECT THEIR
6 DELIBERATIONS.
l
7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I'M OPEN FOR OTHER
SUGGESTIONS; LIKEWISE, MR. TROCHA.
l
9
10
11
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I KNOW THE GENTLEMAN YOU'RE
REFERRING TO WITH THE BALD HEAD AND THE BEARD -- A
GOATEE. HE'S NOT DOCUMENTED OR AFFILIATED WITH ANY
,
l
J
12 GANGS. I THINK HE'S A PH.D. STUDENT AT SAN DIEGO STATE.

13 HE'S A FAMILY FRIEND. I DON'T THINK HE IS A CONCERN. l
14
15 CONCERNED.
THE COURT: I WASN'T ADDRESSING THAT HE WAS A
I'M ADDRESSING THAT HIS APPEARANCE WAS
1
16
17
18
SOMEWHAT MENACING, AND HE WAS HERE FOR SOME WITNESSES,
AND NOT SOME OTHER WITNESSES.
EXPRESSIONS.
HE DIDN'T MAKE ANY FACIAL
HE IS JUST PHYSICALLY A MENACING PERSON,
,
l
~
19 AND I WAS WONDERING IF THAT WAS WHAT THE JURORS WERE

20 TALKING ABOUT. l
21 IT MAY BE WHAT MR. TROCHA ALLUDED TO, THAT THEY
22 SEE PEOPLE OUT IN THE HALLWAYS AND THAT HAS PEOPLE
1
23
24
CONCERNED TOO.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MR. TROCHA IS CORRECT IN
1
25 THAT YESTERDAY, PUTTING A ROUGH PERCENTAGE ON IT, MAYBE l
26 70 TO 80 PERCENT OF THE WITNESSES I CALLED, EVEN THOUGH
27 THEY DENIED IT, WERE PROBABLY MEMBERS OR ASSOCIATES WITH l
28 THE GANG, AND I CALLED THEM BECAUSE THEY HAD RELEVANT
l
l
r 2002
r 1 INFORMATION.
r 2
3
IF THEY HAVE MADE ANY THREATS OR ANYTHING OR
DOING EVIL EYES OR WHATEVER, I HAVE NO INFORMATION ON
r 4 THAT. I HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THAT.
r 5
6 HAPPENED.
THE COURT: I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THAT HAS
WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS ASK IF YOU WANT ME
r 7
8
TO EITHER LET IT LIE OR MAKE ANOTHER LOW-KEYED REFERENCE
TO THE JURY THAT THEIR SAFETY IS NOT ENDANGERED BY THEIR
r 9
10
SERVICE IN THIS CASE.
THE CLERK:
THE CLERK HAS SOMETHING TO SAY.
YOUR HONOR, DEPUTY ESCAVEDO WILL BE
r 11 HERE AT 12:30, BUT ALTERNATE NO. 2, WE BELIEVE,
r 12
13
APPROACHED HIM YESTERDAY AND SAID --
THE COURT: THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
r 14
15
WHAT DID SHE SAY TO DEPUTY ESCAVEDO?
THE CLERK: SHE SAID, "DEPUTY, DON'T LET THESE
r 16
17
GANG-BANGER WITNESSES GO THE SAME WAY WE DO."
THE COURT: MEANING EXITING THE COURTHOUSE?
r 18 THE CLERK: CORRECT.

19 THE COURT: I WASN'T AWARE OF THE SUBSTANCE OF
r 20 THAT CONVERSATION, BUT THAT'S IT.
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'D REQUEST THEN, YOUR
HONOR, AT THE END OF THE DAY TO VOIR DIRE HER TO SEE IF
r 23
24
THERE IS BIAS.
THE COURT: OKAY. I THINK THAT IS NOT AN
r 25
26
UNREASONABLE REQUEST. DO YOU WANT ME TO MAKE ANY
STATEMENTS BEFORE THEN, OR JUST WAIT UNTIL WE HAVE THAT
r 27 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION?
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DON'T THINK A STATEMENT IS
r
r
2003
1
l
1 NECESSARY.
2 MR. TROCHA: I'LL SUBMIT. l
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THAT'S FINE. JUST
4 TRYING TO DO WHAT I CAN DO TO MAINTAIN THE FAIRNESS AND l
5 IMPARTIALITY OF THE JURY, AND WE WILL ADDRESS THAT AT
6 THE END OF THE DAY. MR. SPEREDELOZZI, PLEASE REMIND ME
l
7
8
OF THAT IF I FOR SOME REASON FORGET IT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WILL.
l
l
9
10
11
12
THE COURT: OKAY.
PREPARED TO BEGIN WITNESSES?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, ARE YOU
I AM, YOUR HONOR.

LIKE TO CALL THE JUVENILE IN CUSTODY FIRST.
I WOULD
,
13
14
15
THE COURT:
THIS THEN:
COURTROOM.
OKAY. HE'S AVAILABLE.
WE'LL HAVE THE JURORS BROUGHT INTO THE
LET'S DO
ONCE THEY'RE SEATED, WE'LL GET UNDERWAY WITH

,
l
j
16 THE TAKING OF TESTIMONY WITH THE DEFENSE WITNESS.

l
17 THE FIRST DEFENSE WITNESS IS A YOUNG MAN WHO'S
l
18
19
20
IN THE CUSTODY OF THE JUVENILE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM,
AND HE'LL BE TESTIFYING IN CUSTODY. WHERE IT'S A
WITNESS, WE DON'T WORRY ABOUT PUTTING THEM IN SUITS.
,
21 YOU MAY SEE HIM IN SOME FORM OF JAIL CLOTHING.
22 MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE, DEPUTY.
l
23
24
1
25 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) l
26 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND
27 GOOD MORNING. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL MEMBERS l
28 OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. AS ALWAYS, THIS REFERENCE
l
,
r 2004
r 1 INCLUDES OUR ALTERNATE JURORS. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL
r 2 ARE PRESENT.
3 BEFORE WE BEGIN WITH MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S NEXT
r 4 WITNESS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I WOULD LIKE TO INFORM
r 5
6
YOU THAT WE ARE HONORED TO HAVE IN OUR COURTROOM TODAY A
NUMBER OF JUDGES AND JUDICIAL OFFICERS FROM THE REPUBLIC
r 7
8
OF MEXICO. THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF THE
COURTROOM IN THE BACK AND IN THE FIRST ROW OF THE
r 9 LEFT-HAND SIDE.
r 10
11
WE WELCOME THEM TO OUR COURTROOM. THEY ARE
HERE AS PART OF A TRAINING AND EXCHANGE PROGRAM TO LEARN
r 12
13
ABOUT HOW CRIMINAL TRIALS ARE CONDUCTED UNDER OUR
CONSTITUTION, AND, OF COURSE, I HOPE TO LEARN SIMILAR
r 14
15
THINGS FROM THEM WHEN WE HAVE A CHANCE TO SPEAK MORE
PRIVATELY.
r 16
17
YOU WILL SEE THEM OBSERVING THE PROCEEDINGS
THIS MORNING. THEY ARE RECEIVING SIMULTANEOUS
r 18 INTERPRETATION, AND I WANT TO WELCOME THEM TO OUR
r 19
20
COURTROOM.
I WOULD LIKE TO THANK EACH OF OUR JURORS FOR
r 21
22
YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS CASE.
WE'RE GOING TO INVITE MR. SPEREDELOZZI, FOR THE DEFENSE,
r 23
24
TO CALL HIS NEXT WITNESS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE
r 25 DEFENSE CALLS CHRISTIAN AVITA.
r 26
27
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
ARE YOU CHRISTIAN?
YES.
r 28 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. STOP RIGHT THERE.
r
2005
,
1 AS MUCH AS YOU ARE COMFORTABLY ABLE, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
l
l
2
3
4
RIGHT HAND AND FACE THIS LADY.
, j

6 HELP YOU GOD?
l
7
8
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
YES.
l
10 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD,
11 PLEASE. GOOD MORNING. l
13 THE CLERK: COULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR FULL l
14
15
THE WITNESS: CHRISTIAN JESUS AVITA,
1
16 A-V-I-T-A.
l
17 THE COURT: DID YOU GIVE ME A MIDDLE NAME, SIR?
18 THE WITNESS: YEAH. l
19 THE COURT: WHAT WAS IT?
20 THE WITNESS: JESUS. l
,
21 THE COURT: J-E-S-U-S.
l
J
24 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AS WAS THE CASE WITH
25 ANOTHER WITNESS WHO APPEARED IN CUSTODY, PLEASE DO NOT l
26 SPECULATE ABOUT WHY THIS YOUNG MAN IS IN CUSTODY. THE
27 FACT THAT HE IS IN CUSTODY DOES NOT BY ITSELF MAKE HIS l
28 TESTIMONY MORE OR LESS BELIEVABLE.
l
1
r 2006
r 1 JUST EVALUATE HIS TESTIMONY ACCORDING TO THE
r 2 INSTRUCTIONS I WILL GIVE YOU REGARDING WITNESSES
r 3
4
GENERALLY AT THE END OF THE TRIAL. THANK YOU.
r 6 CHRISTIAN JESUS AVITA,
r 7
8
AS FOLLOWS:
r 9
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 11 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. AVITA.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING.
ARE YOU A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
(WITNESS SHAKES HEAD.)
DO YOU HAVE A NICKNAME?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS IT?
r 18
19
A.
Q.
SPANKY.
IS IT BIG SPANKY OR LIL SPANKY?
r 20 A. SPANKY.
r
l
21 Q. WELL, IS THERE ANOTHER SPANKY?
22 A. YEAH.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HIM?
NO.
r 25 Q. BUT THERE IS ONE?

26 A. (WITNESS NODS HEAD.)
r 27 Q. IS HE OLDER THAN YOU OR YOUNGER THAN YOU?
28 A. I DON'T KNOW.
r
r
2007
, J
1 Q. IS HIS NAME RANDY BARNES?

l
2 A. DON ' T KNOW. l
3 Q. BUT YOU GO BY SPANKY?
4 THE COURT: YOU NEED TO ANSWER OUT LOUD, SIR. l
5 THE WITNESS: OH, YES, I GO BY SPANKY. ~
j
7 Q. ON THE NIGHT OF SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, DO YOU
l
8 REMEMBER THAT NIGHT?
,
,
9 A. YES. J
10 Q. IS THAT BECAUSE SOMEBODY PASSED AWAY IN YOUR
11 NEIGHBORHOOD?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT OR WERE YOU THERE? l
14
15
A.
Q.
I HEARD ABOUT IT.
WHERE WERE YOU THAT NIGHT, IF YOU RECALL?
l
16 A. AT A PARTY.
l
17 Q. WHERE WAS THE PARTY?
18 A. 43RD AND -- BY SOUTH CREST. l
19 Q. MR. AVITA, YOUR NAME IS CHRISTIAN, RIGHT?
20 A. YEAH. l
AND YOU SAY YOU GO BY SPANKY? 1J
,
21 Q.
22 A. UH-HUH.
23 Q. IGNORING THE LIL, IF THIS REPRESENTS YOU ON
J
24 DEFENSE SS, IF I WROTE A RED "N" NEXT TO YOUR NAME

~
25 INDICATING YOU WERE NOT AT OCEAN VIEW PARK ON SEPTEMBER 1
26 13, 2008, WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?
27 A. YES. l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CAN I MARK THE EXHIBIT AS
l
l
r 2008
r 1 DESCRIBED?
r 2 THE COURT:
YOU MAY.
r
3
4 Q. MR. AVITA, HOW OLD ARE YOU?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
15.
SO SEVEN YEARS AGO, HOW OLD WERE YOU?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
LIKE --
EIGHT
r 9 A. YEAH.
r 10
11
Q. MAYBE NINE?
DO YOU KNOW A GIRL NAMED GLENNYS BERUMEN?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
NEVER HEARD THAT NAME BEFORE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
WHEN YOU WERE EIGHT OR NINE YEARS OLD, DO YOU
r 16
17
RECALL BEATING UP A 12-YEAR-OLD GIRL?
A. NO.
r 18 Q. YOU DON'T RECALL JUMPING IN A 12-YEAR-OLD GIRL,
r 19
20
BEATING HER UP?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q.
GLENNYS?
YOU DON'T REMEMBER JUMPING IN A GIRL NAME
r 23
24
A. NO.

MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CROSS-EXAMINE.
r
26
27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
2009
,
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
l
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. YOUR NAME IS LIL SPANKY, RIGHT?
4 A. YEAH. l
5 Q. WHO IS SPEEDY?
6 A. I DON'T KNOW.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO SPEEDY IS?
HUH-UH.
l
l
9
10
11
12
Q.
A.
Q.
NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE?
NOPE.
SEE THE GUY SITTING ALL THE WAY TO MY RIGHT,
YOUR LEFT, IN THE COURTROOM?
,
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
EVER SEEN HIM BEFORE?
NOPE.
1
16 Q. I'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO CHANGE YOUR ANSWER.
l
17 WOULD YOU LIKE TO?
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. I'M SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 231. DO YOU SEE THAT,
20 MR. AVITA? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WE SEE YOU IN THIS PICTURE, DO WE NOT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE?
l
25 A. RIGHT THERE.
26 Q. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU'RE WEARING IN THE
27 PICTURE. l
28 A. BLACK AND RED.
l
r 2010
r 1 Q. WHAT ROW ARE YOU IN?
r 2 A. THE BOTTOM.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
THE FRONT?
YEAH, RIGHT THERE.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
ARE YOU THIS PERSON RIGHT HERE?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
PICTURE?
WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR HANDS IN THAT
r 9 A. DOING 38 UP.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
SO ARE YOU A 38TH STREET GANG MEMBER?
YES.
r 12
13
Q. I DIDN'T HEAR THE FIRST TIME.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN?
SO YOU ARE.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
LIKE TWO, THREE YEARS.
WHEN WERE YOU JUMPED IN?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NEVER WAS JUMPED IN.
NEVER WERE JUMPED IN?
r 18 A. HUH-UH.
r 19
20
Q. JUST AS YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE DEFENDANT HERE IN
COURT TODAY, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THIS PERSON RIGHT HERE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH, I SEEN HIM.
BUT YOU JUST TOLD US YOU NEVER HAVE UNTIL
r 25 TODAY. WHICH IS IT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I SEEN HIM.
WHO IS THAT?
I SEEN HIM.
r 28 A. I DON'T RECALL HIS NAME. I DON'T REMEMBER HIS
r
2011
1
l
1 NAME.
2 Q. YOU WERE AT HIS HOUSE, CORRECT -- l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. -- WHEN THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN ABOUT TWO YEARS l
5 AGO? ~
J
6 A. YES.
7
8
Q.
A.
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THE GUY'S NAME?
NOPE.
l
9 Q. WOULD NOT KNOWING WHO AN OG IS IN SHELLTOWN l
10 38TH STREET BE DISRESPECTING THAT PERSON?
11 A. I DON'T KNOW. 1
12 Q. WOULD YOU DISRESPECT A GANG MEMBER IN HIS OWN
13 HOME?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
YET YOU DON'T KNOW THIS PERSON'S NAME AND
1
16 YOU'RE IN HIS HOME?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. IS THAT THE TRUTH? 1
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT A l
21 GUY NAME STALKER?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. AND YOU TOLD US YOU MET HIM IN JUVENILE HALL.
1
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. DO YOU SEE STALKER IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. WHERE IS HE?
l
, J
r 2012
r 1 A. RIGHT THERE.
r 2 Q. WHAT IS HE WEARING?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
BLACK.
IS HE IN THE FRONT ROW?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IS HE THIS GUY IN ALL BLACK?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO. THAT GUY.
THE GUY ON THE RIGHT IN ALL BLACK?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
THAT PICTURE WAS TAKEN BEFORE YOU GUYS WENT TO
r 11 JUVENILE HALL, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
YOU DON'T?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
THAT PICTURE WAS TAKEN ON 3-8 DAY IN 2009. DO
r 16
17
YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A. YEAH.
r 18 Q. YOU DO REMEMBER THAT NOW?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH.
SO THAT WOULD BE BEFORE YOU GUYS WENT INTO
r 21
22
JUVENILE HALL TOGETHER.
A. I THINK SO.
r 23
24
Q. SO WHEN YOU TESTIFIED LAST TIME THAT YOU MET
HIM IN JUVENILE HALL, NOT QUITE RIGHT, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A. I SAID I KNEW HIM, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HIM, LIKE,
TALK TO HIM.
r 27 Q. WELL, YOUR TESTIMONY LAST TIME WAS YOU MET HIM
r 28 IN JUVENILE HALL.
r
2013
1
1 A. GOT TO TALK TO HIM AND EVERYTHING. MET. I
l
2 KNEW WHO HE WAS, BUT l
3 Q. YOU DIDN'T MEET HIM THE NIGHT THAT PICTURE WAS
4 TAKEN WITH YOU GUYS ONE PERSON APART FROM EACH OTHER -- l
5 A. I DIDN'T MEET HIM.
6 Q. -- THROWING UP THE SAME GANG SIGN?
1
7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
NOT GETTING JUMPED IN.
l
9 A. NO. l
10 Q. YOU'VE NEVER BEEN JUMPED IN, RIGHT?
11 A. NO. 1
12 Q. YOU JUST GO BY LIL SPANKY.
13 A. YES. 1
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU TAG LIL SPANKY AROUND 38TH STREET.
YES.
l
16 Q. BUT NEVER BEEN JUMPED IN.
1
17 A. NO.
18 Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAS 38TH STREET BEATEN YOU UP l
19 FOR DOING THAT?
20 A. NOT ONCE. l
21 Q. YOU LIVE A CHARMED LIFE, MR. AVITA; WOULD YOU
22 AGREE?
l
23
24
A. YES.
l
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. WHY ARE YOU IN JUVENILE HALL? l
28 A. VIOLATION.
l
l
r 2014
r 1 Q. FOR WHAT?
r 2 A. HOME SUPE.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHY WERE YOU IN HOME SUPERVISION?
GOT LOCKED UP.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
FOR WHAT?
TAGGING.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MR. TROCHA:
OBJECTION.
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPROPER.
r 9
10
THE COURT:
TO STRIKE.
OVERRULED, SUBJECT TO YOUR MOTION
r 11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q. YOU WERE FOUND TRUE IN JUVENILE HALL FOR
VANDALISM, CORRECT?
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
IMPEACHMENT.
OBJECTION. IMPROPER
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
ALL RIGHT, COUNSEL, HELP ME OUT.
r 18 IS VANDALISM A CRIME OF MORAL TURPITUDE?
r 19
20
MR. TROCHA:
INTENT, YOUR HONOR.
IT IS. IT'S DONE WITH MALICIOUS
r 21
22
THE COURT:
TO CHECK THAT.
ONE MOMENT, PLEASE. I'LL JUST HAVE
r 23
24
THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
r 25 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 26
27
Q. YOU'VE ALSO BEEN IN JUVENILE HALL FOR PETTY
THEFT, CORRECT?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2015
,
1 Q. BECAUSE YOU TRIED TO STEAL A BIKE FROM A KID --
l
2 A. YES.
3 Q. -- IN 38TH STREET.
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. WHILE YOU WERE IN JUVENILE HALL FOR THAT
6 OFFENSE, YOU SPRAYED DEGREASER IN ANOTHER INMATE'S FACE
l
,
7 LEADING TO A CONVICTION FOR FELONY ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY
8 WEAPON, CORRECT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU GOT OUT, YOU RESISTED AN
11 ARREST WITH A POLICE OFFICER, CORRECT? 1
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND THEN YOU GOT CAUGHT TAGGING DOWN IN l
14
15
SHELLTOWN AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE BACK IN JUVENILE HALL.
A. YES.
l
16
17
Q. BUT YOU'RE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN WHO'S NEVER
BEEN JUMPED IN.
1
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. HOW DID YOU JOIN THEM?
20 A. I WAS JUST HANGING AROUND WITH THEM. l
21 Q. WITH WHO?
22 A. CHRISTOPHER AND LORENZO.
23 Q. WHAT ARE THEIR STREET NAMES?
l
24 A. BLANCO AND DUSTY.
25 Q. DO WE SEE BLANCO IN THAT PICTURE? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHAT IS HE WEARING IN THAT PICTURE? l
28 A. CHARGER JACKET.
l
1
r 2016
r 1 Q. IS IT THE YELLOW AND BLUE JACKET?
r 2
3
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
YES?
YES.
WAS THAT YES?
r 4 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DO WE SEE DUSTY IN THAT PICTURE?
NO.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE DO YOU RECOGNIZE IN THAT PICTURE?
THAT'S ALL.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT HEFTY?
YEAH, I RECOGNIZE HIM.

rl 11 Q. YOU KNOW HEFTY THEN.
r 12
13
WHICH ONE IS HEFTY? IT'S PROBABLY EASIER FOR
YOU TO JUST TELL US WHAT HE'S WEARING.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
WITH THE HAT WITH THE
IN THE VERY FRONT?

so.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WEARING THE BLUE HAT WITH THE WHITE INSIGNIA?
r 18 THE COURT: YES?
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHO ELSE DO YOU RECOGNIZE IN THAT PICTURE?
THAT'S ALL.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT STONY?
NOPE.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT CROOKS?
NOPE.
r 27 Q. WHAT ABOUT CARTOON?
r 28 A. NO.
r
2017
1
1 Q. SPARROW?
l
2 A. NO. l
3 Q. NOW, TELL ME ABOUT THIS PARTY YOU WERE AT IN
l
4
5
SOUTH CREST.
A.
WHAT WERE YOU DOING THERE?
JUST HANGING OUT -- , J
6 Q. DOING WHAT?
7 A. -- WITH MY FRIEND. ~
J
8 Q. WHO?
1
,
10 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
11 A. NO. j
12 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU GET TO THIS PARTY?

13 A. LIKE 8 : 0 0 . l
14
15
Q.
A.
IN THE MORNING?
AT NIGHT.
l
1
16
17
18
Q.
A.
Q.
WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE?
LIKE 1:00.
IN THE MORNING?
, J
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. AND IT WAS JUST YOU AND YOUR FRIEND HANGING OUT l
21 IN THIS PARK?
22 THE COURT: IS THAT "YES"?
l
23
24
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
NOT AT A PARK, BUT AT A PARTY.
1
25 Q. PARTY AT THE PARK? l
26 A. NO. THERE'S A -- I DON'T KNOW -- A SALON. I
27 DON'T KNOW, LIKE A DANCE. l
28 Q. A QUINCEANERA?
l
l
r 2018
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q. YOU WERE AT A QUINCEANERA TOO --
r
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. -- THAT SAME NIGHT?
5 WHERE WAS THIS QUINCEANERA?
6 A. LIKE BY SOUTH CREST.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
IT WASN'T BY OCEAN VIEW PARK?
I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T RECALL.
r 9
10
Q. HOW MANY QUINCEANERAS WERE GOING ON THAT NIGHT?

r
( 11 SPECULATION.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SUSTAINED.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO WAS AT THIS QUINCEANERA WITH YOU?
FRIENDS. I DON'T REMEMBER THOUGH.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHO INVITED YOU?
WE JUST WENT. WE SEEN IT AND JUST WENT.
r 18 Q. YOU JUST SHOWED UP?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DID YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOTS WHILE YOU WERE AT THE
r 21
22
QUINCEANERA?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q. DID YOU RUN TO A REC CENTER AFTER THE
QUINCEANERA?
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q.
AS WELL.
YOU JUST ALSO HAPPENED TO BE AT A QUINCEANERA
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR
r
2019
1
l
1 SPECULATION.
3 YOU WERE AT A QUINCEANERA, YES?
7 REDIRECT? 1
l
,
11 Q. MR. AVITA, SOUTH CREST PARK IS DEPICTED ON J
12 THIS EXHIBIT, WHAT WOULD BE PEOPLE'S 265, RIGHT? CAN

13 YOU SEE THAT? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
IS THIS SOUTH CREST PARK?
1
16 ON THE EDGE OF SOUTH CREST PARK, IS THERE A
1
17 DANCE HALL?
18 A. YEAH. l
19 Q. MR. AVITA, THAT PARTY THAT WE WERE JUST LOOKING
20 AT THE PHOTO, DID ANYONE GET BEAT UP THERE? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. ANYONE KICK ANYONE'S BUTT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU GET YOUR BUTT KICKED?
1
25 A. NO. l
27 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA? l
28 Ill
l
1 !
r 2020
r 1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. YET YOU WERE ABLE TO TELL US THAT THE
PERSON'S HOUSE YOU WERE AT OWNED THAT HOUSE, BUT YOU
r 5
6
DON'T RECOGNIZE THE PERSON HERE AT COURT TODAY.
A. NOPE.
r 7
8
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
ANYTHING FURTHER?

10 THE COURT: MAY MR. AVITA BE RETURNED?
r 12
13
THE COURT: MR. AVITA, THANK YOU, SIR.
FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS OF THE BAILIFF.
PLEASE
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. BRIEF SIDEBAR,
r 16
17
YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES. SIDEBAR RULE IS IN EFFECT,
r 18 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD FOR JUST
r 19
20
A MOMENT.
(SIDEBAR CONFERENCE HELD; NOT REPORTED.}
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
DEFENSE CALLS SIRIA FORD.
r 23
24
PLEASE STEP RIGHT THROUGH THE RAILING, STOP
RIGHT THERE, FACE THE CLERK AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.

28 HELP YOU GOD?
r
r
,
1 THE WITNESS: YES.
2021
, }

4
6
THE COURT:
WOULD, PLEASE, MA'AM.
THE WITNESS:
RIGHT UP HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU
GOOD MORNING.
GOOD MORNING.
,
l
7
8
1
9 THE WITNESS: SIRIA FORD, F-0-R-D. l
l
11
12
13
SIRIA FORD,
,
14
15
AS FOLLOWS:
1
16
17
18
Q.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
GOOD MORNING, MS. FORD.

,
1
J
19 A. GOOD MORNING.
20 Q. MS. FORD, LET ME GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY: ARE l
21 YOU HAPPY ABOUT TESTIFYING IN COURT TODAY?
22 A. NO.
23
24
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE I DON'T BELONG HERE. I DON'T THINK I
1
25 BELONG HERE. 1
26 Q. MS. FORD, I HAD TO SUBPOENA YOU TO COME TO
27 COURT, RIGHT? l
28 A. RIGHT.
l
l
r 2022
r 1 Q. AND I HAD TO GET AN ARREST WARRANT FOR YOU TO
r 2 COMPEL YOUR ATTENDANCE, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
AND YOU'RE ONLY HERE BECAUSE I DID THAT.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
CAN YOU IDENTIFY HIM BY POINTING AT HIM AND
r 9 IDENTIFYING WHAT HE'S WEARING.
r 10
11
A. HE'S RIGHT THERE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
HE'S WEARING A BLACK SUIT.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT
r 12
13
THE WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT.
THE COURT: SHE HAS. SO ORDERED.
r 14
15
Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW HIM?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THROUGH MY BOYFRIEND.
WHO IS YOUR BOYFRIEND?
r 18 A. CHRISTIAN.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
CHRISTIAN WHO?
MARTINEZ.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HIM?
FLORENCIO?
r 23
24
Q. YES.
DOMINGUEZ?
SORRY. HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN FLORENCIO
r 25
26
A.
Q.
ABOUT THREE YEARS.
DO YOU CONSIDER HIM A FRIEND?
r 27 A. YEAH.
r 28 Q. WHAT DO YOU CALL HIM?
r
2023
,
1 A. CHUNKY.
l
2 Q. DO YOU CALL HIM ANYTHING ELSE? l
3 A. NO.
4 Q. JUST CHUNKY? l
5 A. YES.
6 Q. HOW OLD ARE YOU, MS. FORD? l
7 A. 30. ~
)
1
8 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER SEPTEMBER 2008, THAT PERIOD OF
9 TIME?
l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED MOISES LOPEZ? 1
12 A. NO.
13 Q. DID YOU KNOW OF SOMEBODY NAMED MOISES LOPEZ? 1
14 A. YES.
15 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM?
1
16
17
A.
Q.
HE GOT SHOT.
DO YOU SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER THE NIGHT HE GOT
1
18 SHOT? l
19 A. YES.
l
20
21
22
Q.
A.
Q.
DO YOU KNOW THE EXACT DATE?
NO.
WOULD SEPTEMBER 2008 BE ABOUT THE TIME?
, j
23
24
A.
DATE.
IT WAS PROBABLY SEPTEMBER, BUT I DON'T KNOW THE
1
25 Q. THE NIGHT THAT MR. LOPEZ WAS SHOT, WHAT WERE l
26 YOU DOING AROUND 7:30, 8:00 AT NIGHT?
27 A. DRINKING. l
28 Q. WITH WHO? ~
1
r 2024
r 1 A. WITH FLORENCIO AND CHRISTIAN.
r 2 Q. WHERE?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
AT THE PARK.
WHAT PARK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
OCEAN VIEW.
HOW DID YOU GET THERE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
MY CAR.
WHO DROVE?
r 9 A. ME.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHO WAS WITH YOU WHEN YOU DROVE?
FLORENCIO AND CHRISTIAN.
r 12
13
Q. MS. FORD, LET ME DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO
PROSECUTION 2, WHICH IS THIS AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH I'VE JUST
r 14
15
PLACED ON THE EASEL IN FRONT OF YOU.
A. UH-HUH.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
YES.
r 18 Q. WHAT IS IT?
19 A. A PARK.
r'
I
20 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHICH WAY IS NORTH AND SOUTH?
r
\.
21 A. SOUTH IS STRAIGHT, RIGHT?
22 Q. NOT VERY GOOD WITH DIRECTION?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
THIS STREET HERE IS FRANKLIN, RIGHT?
T 25 A. YEAH.
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THAT AREA OF THE PARK?
r
26
27 A. YES.
~ 28 Q. MS. FORD, WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, ON
l
r
2025
1
1 PROSECUTION 2, WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR VEHICLE?
l
2 A. BY THE TREES. l
3 Q. WHICH TREES ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHY DON'T
l
4
5
6
YOU STEP DOWN.
THE COURT: WE WOULD LIKE YOU TO WALK UP THERE
AND APPROACH THE MAP SO YOU CAN SHOW US, PLEASE.
,
7
8
Q. MS. FORD, WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR?
1
9 A. I WAS PARKED SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE. l
10 THE COURT: MS. FORD, MAY I ASK THAT YOU STEP
11 OVER TOWARD ME AND POINT OUT WHERE YOU WERE PARKED SO 1
12 THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY CAN SEE.
13 THE WITNESS: SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE. 1
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MS. FORD HAS INDICATED JUST
1
15
16
17
TO THE LEFT OF THE LONG PATCH OF TREES.
THE COURT:
THE BENCHES.
NEXT TO WHAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS , ~
19 Q. USING THE BENCHES AS A POINT OF REFERENCE,
20 MS. FORD, DO YOU REMEMBER IF YOU WERE ON THE BOTTOM SIDE
21 OF THE BENCHES OR THE TOP SIDE OF THE BENCHES, TO YOUR
22 BEST RECOLLECTION?
23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
DON'T REMEMBER?
1
4
25 A. NO. .I
26 Q. SOMEWHERE ALONG THE TREES YOU WERE PARKED?
27 A. YEAH. 1
28 Q. WHY DID YOU GO TO THE PARK?
l
1
r 2026
r 1 HAVE A SEAT, MS. FORD.
r 2
3 A.
WHY DID YOU GO TO THE PARK?
TO GIVE FLORENCIO A RIDE.
l 4 Q. TO THE PARK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH. HE WAS GOING TO GET PICKED UP.
WAS HE DRINKING?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE
r 9
10
THERE?
A. A LOT.
r 11 Q. GIVE ME A NUMBER.
12 A. ABOUT 20.
[ 13 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN MORE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
MAYBE, YEAH.
COULD IT HAVE BEEN 30?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
MORE THAN 20?
r 18
19
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DID YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES DRINK WHILE
[ 20 YOU WERE THERE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WE WERE PROBABLY SMOKING.
SMOKING WEED?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS WEARING
r 25 THAT NIGHT?
r 26
27
28
A.
Q.
A.
NO.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT HIS HAIR LOOKED LIKE?
NO.
L
r
2027
1
1
1 Q. HOW DOES HIS HAIR NORMALLY LOOK?
2 A. BALD. 1
3 Q. BALD LIKE WIFFLE OR BALD LIKE SHAVED?
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A WIFFLE IS?
5
6 A. WITH A LITTLE BIT OF HAIR.

l
7
8
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT COMPLETELY SHAVED IS?
WITH A BIC RAZOR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, RIGHT?
LIKE
1
9 A. UH-HUH. l
10 Q. ARE YOU ABLE TO SAY WHETHER HIS NORMAL
1
11
12
13
APPEARANCE IS BALD OR WITH A LITTLE BIT OF HAIR?
A.
Q.
I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER.
HOW ABOUT HIS FACIAL HAIR? WHAT DOES HIS
,
14
15
FACIAL HAIR LOOK LIKE?
A. HE'S ALWAYS LIKE CLEAN-SHAVED.
l
l
,
16 Q. DOES HE HAVE A MUSTACHE AND/OR A GOATEE?
18 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF HE DID THAT NIGHT?
19 A. HUH-UH.
20 Q. WHEN YOU WERE AT THE PARK, WHERE ABOUTS WERE 1
21 YOU GUYS HANGING OUT, YOU AND CHRISTIAN AND FLORENCIO?
1
22
23
24
A.
Q.
A.
BY MY CAR.
STANDING BY YOUR CAR?
YEAH.
, j
1
,
25 Q. WERE YOU SITTING IN YOUR CAR AT ANY POINT?
26 A. WELL, WHEN WE GOT THERE WE GOT OFF, AND HE WAS
27 WAITING FOR HIS GIRLFRIEND TO COME PICK HIM UP.
28 Q. WITH REGARD TO HIS GIRLFRIEND, WHEN DID SHE
1
, j
r 2028
r 1 ARRIVE?
r 2 A. COUPLE MINUTES AFTER THAT.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE AN ESTIMATE OF TIME?
NO, I DON'T.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT DID HE DO WHEN HIS GIRLFRIEND ARRIVED?
HE WALKED DOWN THE DIRT ALLEY TO GO TALK TO
r 7
8
HER.
Q. MS. FORD, DID YOU KNOW HIS GIRLFRIEND AT THE
r 9
10
TIME?
A. YEAH. WELL, I KNOW HER BECAUSE HE USED TO BE
r 11 WITH HER.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HER NAME?
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT IS IT?
DIANA.
r 16
17
Q.
MARRIED?
MS. FORD, DID YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS
r~ 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q. MS. FORD, WHEN DIANA GOT THERE, YOU SAID HE
WALKED DOWN THE ALLEY, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW HER LAST NAME -- DIANA'S?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
BANUELOS.
WHEN MS. BANUELOS GOT THERE -- DO YOU KNOW HOW
r 25 SHE GOT THERE?
r 26 A. IN HER CAR.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE SHE PARKED?
r 28 A. IN THE STREET.
r
2029
,
Q. CAN YOU PLEASE STEP DOWN AND SHOW US WHERE
1
1
2 MR. BANUELOS PARKED. l
3 A. SHE WAS RIGHT HERE.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT l
THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO WHERE THE ALLEY ON
5
6 PROSECUTION 2 MEETS FRANKLIN, JUST TO THE RIGHT THEREOF.

1
1
,
8 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. HAVE A SEAT.
9
10
Q. WHEN MR. DOMINGUEZ WENT DOWN TO SEE HIS
,
11
12
13
GIRLFRIEND, WHAT DID THEY APPEAR TO BE DOING?
A.
Q.
LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE ARGUING.
WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT?
,
14
15
A. THE WAY THEY WERE LIKE WITH THEIR HANDS, I
THINK THEY WERE ARGUING.
l
1
,
16 Q. AND COULD YOU HEAR WHAT THEY WERE ARGUING
17 ABOUT?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. HOW LONG WERE THEY ARGUING FOR?
20 A. FOR A WHILE. 1
21 Q. CAN YOU GIVE US A TIME ESTIMATE?
22 A. NOT REALLY.
1
23
24
Q.
A.
DOES 30 MINUTES SOUND ABOUT RIGHT?
PROBABLY, YEAH.
1
25 Q. WERE YOU WATCHING THEM THE ENTIRE TIME OR WERE 1
26 YOU BUSY TALKING, DOING OTHER THINGS?
27 A. WELL, I WAS TALKING TO CHRISTIAN, BUT, YEAH, I 1
28 WAS LOOKING AT THEM TOO.
l
l
r 2030
r 1 Q. THEY WERE JUST RIGHT DOWN THE ALLEY?

r 2 A. UH-HUH.
r
L._
3
4
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
IS THAT "YES"?
YES.
r 5
6
r 7
8
Q. AT THE TIME MS. BANUELOS AND MR. DOMINGUEZ WERE
r 9 ARGUING, WHAT DID YOU SEE, MS. FORD, IN THIS AREA OF THE
r 10
11
PARK? AND FOR THE RECORD, I'M CIRCLING WHAT HAS
PREVIOUSLY BEEN MARKED WITH A RED CIRCLE, THREE DOTS AND
r 12
13
A W AND A 2, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YES.
r 14
15
Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THAT AREA?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
PEOPLE.
HOW MANY PEOPLE?
r 18 A. A LOT.

20 A. FIGHTING.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DID THIS CONCERN YOU?
NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW.
r 25 Q.
A.
IS THAT COMMON?
FOR PEOPLE TO FIGHT?
r
26
27 Q. YEAH.
r 28 A. I GUESS.
r
2031
1
1
1 Q. AND WHILE THEY WERE FIGHTING, WHAT HAPPENED
~
2 THAT GOT YOUR ATTENTION? J
3 A. WHAT HAPPENED?
4 Q. DID YOU HEAR GUNSHOTS? l
5 A. YES.
1
6
7
8
Q.
GUNSHOTS?
A.
WHERE WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ WHEN YOU HEARD THE
DOWN THE ALLEY WITH DIANA, TALKING.

,
1
9
10
11
12
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS MR. CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
WELL, HE WAS ACTUALLY WALKING DOWN TO GO TELL
MR. DOMINGUEZ THAT WE WERE GOING TO LEAVE, IF HE WAS
GOING TO GO WITH US OR IF HE WAS GOING TO STAY WITH
,
13 DIANA. 1
14
15
Q. WHY WAS HE WALKING DOWN TO SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ?
I'M TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
l
16
17
A.
Q.
TO TELL HIM WE WERE GOING TO LEAVE.
HAD YOU TALKED TO CHRISTIAN ABOUT LEAVING?
1
18 A. YES. 1
19 Q. HAD YOU MADE A DECISION IN THAT REGARD?
1
20
21
A. WELL, I TOLD HIM TO GO ASK HIM IF HE WAS GOING
TO LEAVE WITH HER OR LEAVE WITH US. SO WHEN HE WAS ,
22 WALKING DOWN IS WHEN I HEARD THE GUNSHOTS.
WERE YOU ABOUT TO LEAVE? ,
,
23 Q.
24 A. WAS I ABOUT TO LEAVE?
25 Q. YES.
26 A. WELL, AS SOON AS WE GET AN ANSWER FROM HIM.
27 Q. YOU WERE PLANNING ON TAKING OFF AS SOON AS j
28 MR. DOMINGUEZ GAVE YOU AN ANSWER?
l
1
r 2032
r 1 A. YES.
r 2
3
Q. SO AT THE TIME MR. MARTINEZ IS WALKING DOWN THE
HILL, IS THAT WHEN YOU HEAR THE GUNSHOT?
l 4 A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN?
r 5
6
Q. SURE. AT THE TIME MR. MARTINEZ, CHRISTIAN
MARTINEZ, YOUR BOYFRIEND, IS WALKING DOWN THE HILL DOWN
r 7
8
THE ALLEY TOWARDS MR. DOMINGUEZ, THAT IS WHEN YOU HEARD
THE GUNSHOTS?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
AND WHAT DID YOU DO?
WELL, I RAN.
r 12
13
Q.
YOU RAN?
WITH REGARD TO YOUR CAR, WHAT DID YOU DO BEFORE
r 14
15
A. I WENT BACK INTO MY CAR AND I WAS GOING TO
LEAVE, BUT I HEARD LIKE A LOT OF COPS, SO I GOT SCARED
r 16
17
AND I RAN.
Q. WHICH WAY DID YOU RUN?
r 18 A. TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW DOWN THE ALLEY?
NO. I WAS ACROSS THE PARK.
r 21
22 WAY?
Q. ON PROSECUTION 2, YOU CROSSED THE PARK THIS
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND I'M DRAWING A DIAGONAL LINE THAT CROSSES
r 25 FROM THE TREES TO CROSS THE WALKWAY AND FINALLY HITS

OCEAN VIEW?
r
26
27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. THAT'S NOT THE EXACT ROUTE. THAT'S JUST A BEST
r
\1
1 ESTIMATE, RIGHT?
2033
,
2 A. YES. 1
3 Q. HAPPENED TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO?
4 A. YEAH. 1
5 Q. WHERE DID MR. DOMINGUEZ RUN? LET ME ASK YOU
1
6
8
THIS:
OFF?
A.
WHAT DID MR. DOMINGUEZ DO WHEN THE SHOTS WENT
WELL, I SAW THEM RUNNING.

,
1
9
10
Q.
A.
WHICH WAY DID THEY RUN?
TOWARDS THAT WAY.
,
11
12
13
Q.
A.
SAYING "THAT WAY," WHY DON'T YOU STEP DOWN AND
SHOW US ON THE EXHIBIT WHERE THEY RAN.
THEY RAN THIS WAY.
,)
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT
THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THEY WENT EAST ON FRANKLIN.
1
16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
UH-HUH.
YES, THAT'S WHAT SHE'S INDICATED.
l
1
18
19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
Q.
YOU MAY HAVE A SEAT.
WHICH WAY DID MR. MARTINEZ RUN?

,
21 A. HE WAS RUNNING THE SAME DIRECTION.
1
22
23
24
Q.
A.
Q.
AS DIANA AND MR. DOMINGUEZ?
YES.
DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ
,
25
26
LATER THAT NIGHT?
A. NO.
1
27 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM A FEW DAYS 1
28 LATER?
1
,
r
r
2034
1 A. I THINK SO.
r 2 Q. DID YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT?
r 3
4
A. WELL, I TOLD HIM THAT --
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
r 5
6
YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
THE QUESTION IS: DID
NOT WHAT WAS SAID.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
LET ME REPHRASE, YOUR HONOR.
r 10
11
Q. WITHOUT TELLING US THE CONTENT THEREOF, YOU HAD
A CONVERSATION A COUPLE DAYS LATER ABOUT EVERYTHING,
r 12
13
RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY
OFTEN, RIGHT, IN YOUR LIFE?
r
~ -
16 A. RIGHT.
r
17 Q. IT'S NOT EVERY DAY YOU'RE AT A PARK AND
18 SOMEBODY GETS SHOT.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
MS. FORD, YOU WERE VISITED BY POLICE DETECTIVES
r 21
22
THREE DAYS AFTER THE SHOOTING, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 23
24
Q. AND YOUR CAR -- WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CAR AFTER
THAT NIGHT?
r 25 A. THEY TOOK IT.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHO TOOK IT?
THE POLICE.
r 28 Q. HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?
r
2035
l
1
i:l
1 A. I CALLED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

2 Q. SO YOU CAME BACK TO GET YOUR CAR AT SOME POINT. l
3 A. YEAH. -t
4 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU CAME BACK? 1
5 A. IT WAS JUST GONE.
6 Q. SO WHEN YOU CALLED THE POLICE, WHAT DID THEY 1
7
8
TELL YOU WITH REGARD TO YOUR CAR?
A. THAT THE HOMICIDE HAD IT.
1
9
10
Q.
A.
AND BASED ON THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
I ASKED THEM WHY, AND THEY SAID THERE WAS A
,
1
11
12
13
SHOOTING, AND THEY TOLD ME TO TALK TO THEM BEFORE I GET
MY CAR BACK.
Q. AND YOU DID TALK WITH THEM?
,
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT DID YOU TELL THE POLICE?
1
16 A. THAT I WASN'T THERE. 1-J
17 Q. WHY DID YOU SAY THAT?

18 A. BECAUSE I WAS SCARED. 1
19 Q. WHY WERE YOU SCARED?
1
20
21
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
DID YOU LIVE IN SHELLTOWN AT THE TIME? ,
22 A. YEAH.
,
,
23 Q. DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE MEMBERS OF
24 SHELL TOWN?
25 A. NO.
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE ASSOCIATES OR
27 ASSOCIATED WITH THE GANG OF SHELLTOWN? 1
28 A. WELL, I MEAN, THERE'S MEMBERS RIGHT THERE THAT
l
l
r 2036
r 1 LIVE AROUND ME, BUT I DON'T HANG OUT WITH THEM.
r 2 Q. YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT YOU WERE HANGING OUT
r
3 WITH ANOTHER GIRL NAMED DENISE THAT NIGHT, RIGHT?
4 A. THAT'S NOT HER NAME.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
SORRY.
YEAH.
ADRIANA.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
YOU BROUGHT ADRIANA WITH YOU, RIGHT?
YES.
[ 9 Q. WHY WERE YOU SO SCARED TO TELL THE POLICE THE
r 10
11
TRUTH?
A. BECAUSE THERE WAS A SHOOTING THERE AND MY CAR
r 12
13
WAS RIGHT THERE.
Q. WHAT DID YOU THINK HAD HAPPENED?
r 14
15
A. I JUST THOUGHT THEY WERE PROBABLY GOING TO, I
DON'T KNOW, BLAME ME OR SOMETHING.
r 16
17
Q. DID YOU SAY VIOLATE YOU?
THE COURT: BLAME.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BLAME YOU. SORRY.
r 19
20
Q. MS. FORD, DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
FIVE.
WITH REGARD TO YOUR CHILDREN, DID THAT PLAY A
r 25 ROLE IN WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE?

A. WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S WHY I KIND OF LIED TOO,
r 26
27 YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I WAS THINKING ABOUT MY KIDS.
r 28 Q. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT YOUR KIDS?
r
2037
l
1
1 A. I JUST DIDN'T WANT MY KIDS TO FIND OUT ABOUT
2 ANYTHING. l
3 Q. ON FEBRUARY 2, 2009, YOU TALKED TO DETECTIVES
l
4
5
6
AGAIN, RIGHT?
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHERE THAT WAS AT?
,,
,
7 A. BURGER KING, I BELIEVE.
J
8 Q. YOU MET WITH THEM AT A BURGER KING?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. AND AGAIN THEY WERE TRYING TO GET INFORMATION
11 FROM YOU? 1
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AGAIN YOU TOLD THEM YOU WEREN'T THERE, RIGHT? 1
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID TO COME FORWARD AT THIS
l
16
17
MOMENT IN TIME?
A. BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN
l
18 ANYTHING. 1
19 Q. WHAT DOES "BEING INVOLVED" MEAN IN YOUR
1
20
21
22
NEIGHBORHOOD?
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
COULD YOU GET BEAT UP FOR BEING INVOLVED?
,
23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH IT.
ON JULY 1, 2010, YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY AN
1
25 INVESTIGATOR NAMED JOE MALDONADO.
A.
1
26 YES.
27 Q. HE IDENTIFIED HIMSELF AS WORKING WITH FLORENCIO 1
28 DOMINGUEZ, RIGHT?
l
1
r 2038
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AND HE SAID HE WAS A DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR
r 3
4
WORKING WITH FLORENCIO, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 5
6
Q. WHEN HE WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THE
CASE, YOU LIED TO HIM TOO, RIGHT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YOU TOLD HIM YOU WEREN 1 T THERE.
r 9 A. RIGHT.
r 10
11
Q. AT THAT POINT IN TIME, WHY DID YOU TELL
MR. MALDONADO THAT YOU WEREN 1 T THERE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I WAS SCARED.
WHY WERE YOU SCARED AT THIS POINT IN TIME?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I STILL DIDN 1 T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
FINALLY MR. MALDONADO CAME AND TALKED TO YOU
r 16
17
AGAIN, DIDN 1 T HE?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. AND AT THIS POINT YOU DECIDED TO --
r 19
20
A.
Q.
TO TELL HIM THE TRUTH.
WHY?
r 21
22
A. BECAUSE I DON 1 T WANT TO SEE AN INNOCENT MAN GO
TO JAIL FOR SOMETHING HE DIDN 1 T DO.
r 23
24
Q. YOU WERE VISITED ON -- DO YOU REMEMBER --
AUGUST 11, 2010, BY DETECTIVE GASCA AND DEPUTY DISTRICT
r 25 ATTORNEY KRISTIAN TROCHA?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU TOLD THEM?
r 28 A. THAT -- I THINK I TOLD THEM THAT I DIDN 1 T WANT
r
2039
l
1
1 TO TALK TO THEM.
2 Q. WERE THEY NICE TO YOU WHEN THEY TALKED TO YOU? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. THE DETECTIVES IN FEBRUARY AT BURGER KING, WERE 1
5
6
THEY NICE WHEN THEY TALKED TO YOU?
A. NO.
l
7 Q.
A.
WHAT DID THEY DO THAT WASN'T NICE?
I TOOK IT AS A THREAT. THEY WERE TELLING ME
l
8
9 ABOUT MY KIDS. 1
10 Q. WHAT WERE THEY TELLING YOU ABOUT?
11 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. SIDEBAR. 1
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. SIDEBAR
13 RULE IS IN EFFECT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
1
14
15
MA'AM, JUST PLEASE SIT RIGHT THERE.
WE'LL BE OFF THE RECORD FOR A MOMENT.
THANK YOU.
1
16
17
THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
l
1
18
19
20 Q.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY PROCEED.
THE POLICE OFFICERS AT BURGER KING, WHAT DID
,
21
22
THEY TELL YOU ABOUT YOUR CASE?
A. THEY TOLD ME, "DON'T FORGET YOU HAVE KIDS, AND
1
23
24
IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO YOUR KIDS, YOU WOULD WANT
SOMEBODY TO COME AND TELL YOU." AND THEN AFTER WE WERE
l
25 TALKING, THEY WERE LIKE, "GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR KIDS." 1
26 Q. AND YOU TOOK THIS AS A THREAT?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. AFTER MR. TROCHA AND DETECTIVE GASCA TALKED TO
l
1
r 2040
r 1 YOU ON AUGUST 11, 2010, DID YOU CALL SOMEBODY WHO'S A

r 2 PUBLIC DEFENDER WHO YOU KNOW?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY DID YOU CALL THAT PERSON?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I WANTED ADVICE.
WHY?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT YOUR KIDS?
r 9 A. YES.
r
10 Q. WHAT DID THE PUBLIC DEFENDER TELL YOU?
11 A. SHE TOLD ME TO JUST NOT BE INVOLVED.
r 12
13
Q. AND BASED ON WHAT SHE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO
WITH REGARD TO JOE MALDONADO?
r 14
15
A.
ANYMORE.
I TOLD HIM I DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED
r 16
17
Q. YOU TOLD HIM YOU WEREN'T WILLING TO COME IN AND
TESTIFY ANYMORE?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
STORY?
DID YOU TELL HIM YOU WANTED TO RETRACT YOUR
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
F 23
24
A.
Q.
BECAUSE -- I DON'T KNOW.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHY?
r 25
26
A.
ANYTHING.
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT DO GET BLAMED FOR
r 27 Q. DID IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR KIDS?
r 28 A. YEAH.
r
2041
l
l
1 Q. SO FINALLY, MS. FORD, YOU CAME FORWARD AFTER
2 MS. CRUZ SPOKE TO YOU, RIGHT? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. MY INVESTIGATOR. 1
A. YES.
5
6 Q. AT THAT TIME, WHAT DID YOU TELL HER?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
IS THIS DIFFICULT FOR YOU, MS. FORD?
l
9 A. YEAH. 1
10 Q. SO AFTER FLIP-FLOPPING ON WHAT THE RIGHT THING
11 TO DO IS, WHAT DID YOU DECIDE THE RIGHT THING TO DO WAS 1
12 IN THIS CASE?
13 A. TO TELL THE TRUTH. 1
14
15
Q.
MIND?
AND WHY IS THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO, IN YOUR
l
16
17
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I NEED TO TELL THE TRUTH.
WHY IS TELLING THE TRUTH THE RIGHT THING TO DO
l
18 IN THIS CASE? 1
19 A. BECAUSE I NEED TO BE HONEST.
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU. NOTHING 1
21 FURTHER.
1
22
23
24
CROSS-EXAMINATION
,
25
26
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MS. FORD, WHERE WERE YOUR FIVE KIDS WHEN YOU
1
27 WERE DRINKING IN OCEAN VIEW PARK THREE YEARS AGO? l
28 A. THEY WERE PROBABLY WITH THEIR DAD.
l
l
r 2042
r: 1 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW?
r 2 A. WELL, IF THEY WEREN'T AT HOME, THEY WERE WITH
r 3
4
THEIR DAD.
Q. BUT AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU CAN'T TELL US
r 5
6
WHERE THEY WERE?
A. WELL, I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER WHAT DATE THAT WAS,
r 7
8
SO -- THEIR DAD COMES AND PICKS THEM UP WHEN WE WERE
THERE.
r 9
10
Q. WAS THE FATHER OF YOUR KIDS IN CUSTODY AT THE
TIME THIS HAPPENED?
r 11 A. NO.
r 12
13
Q. THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE IN THE FIRST
INTERVIEW, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
RALPH FORD IS THE FATHER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
THAT'S MY HUSBAND.
NOT THE FATHER OF THE KIDS?
r
~
18 A. NO.
r
L
19
20
Q.
A.
WHO IS THE FATHER OF KIDS?
HE LIVES IN ESCONDIDO.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT IS HIS NAME?
PAUL.
r 23
24
Q. SO YOU BROUGHT YOUR KIDS ALL THE WAY UP TO
ESCONDIDO BEFORE YOU WENT TO THE PARTY IN OCEAN VIEW
r 25 PARK?
A. I SAID I DON'T REMEMBER IF MY KIDS WERE WITH
r 26
27 HIM OR IF THEY WERE AT HOME.
r 28 Q. YOU REMEMBERED ALL THESE OTHER DETAILS OF THE
r
2043
l
l
1 SAME NIGHT. WHY CAN'T YOU REMEMBER WHERE YOUR KIDS
2 WERE? l
3 A. I DON'T KNOW.
4 Q. YOU'VE TOLD US MULTIPLE TIMES JUST A FEW l
5
6
MINUTES AGO THAT THE REASON YOU MADE UP ALL THESE LIES
TO THE POLICE WAS BECAUSE YOUR KIDS WERE THE MOST
1
7
8
IMPORTANT THING TO YOU, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
1
9 Q. YOU CAN'T TELL US WHERE THEY WERE THE NIGHT 1
10 THIS WHOLE THING HAPPENED?
11 A. EVERYTHING GOING ON, I'VE BEEN GOING TO COURT, 1
12
13
SO IT'S ON MY MIND THIS WHOLE TIME.
MY KIDS WERE THAT DAY.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE
1
14 Q. COULD IT BE THAT YOU'VE TOLD FIVE DIFFERENT
1 ~
15 VERSIONS OF WHAT HAPPENED THIS NIGHT?

16
17 EVIDENCE.
l
18 THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT'S CROSS-EXAMINATION. 1
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. MS. FORD, YOU'VE TOLD ABOUT FIVE DIFFERENT 1
21 VERSIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
MAYBE.
AND TODAY IS EVEN DIFFERENT FROM THE LAST TIME
YOU CAME IN AND TESTIFIED, CORRECT?
,
25 A. HOW DIFFERENT?
1
26 Q. WELL, LAST TIME YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T SEE A FIGHT
27 IN THE PARK. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT? l
28 A. I SAID THERE WAS PROBABLY PEOPLE FIGHTING.
l
l
r 2044
r 1 Q. YOU WERE ASKED IF THERE WAS A FIGHT, AND YOU

r 2 SAID THERE WAS NO FIGHT. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
3 A. NO, I DONrT.
r- 4 THE COURT: "LAST TIME" -- ARE YOU REFERRING TO
r 5
6
LAST TIME?
rr 7 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9
10
Q. YOU SAID IT WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE HANGING OUT
IN THE PARK WHEN YOU WERE THERE, CORRECT?
r 11 A. CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q. AND YOU WERE ASKED WHO WAS FIGHTING, AND YOU
SAID, "I DIDNrT SEE A FIGHT," CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I DONrT REMEMBER.
YOU DONrT REMEMBER. LETrs TALK ABOUT SOMETHING
r 16
17
MAYBE YOU DO REMEMBER.
IS YOUR BOYFRIEND, CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, A MEMBER
r 18 OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r 19
20
A. HErs MY BOYFRIEND.
SHELLTOWN.
I DONrT THINK HErs FROM
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHATrs HIS NICKNAME?
CHRIS.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
NOT VANDAL?
NO.
r 25 Q.
A.
WHAT IS MR. DOMINGUEzrs NICKNAME?
CHUNKY. I CALL HIM CHUNKY. I DONrT KNOW.
r 26
27 Q. WHAT ABOUT SPEEDY?
r 28 A. NO.
r
2045
1
l
1 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN HERE,
2 YOU DIDN'T REMEMBER WHETHER MR. DOMINGUEZ'S NAME WAS l

3 CHUNKY OR WHO CHUNKY EVEN WAS?
4 A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT. l
5
6
Q. PAGE 3565 FROM OCTOBER 20, 2010, STARTING AT
LINE 11, WE WERE ASKING ABOUT PEOPLE YOU KNOW.
l
7 "WHAT ABOUT SPEEDY? 1]
8 "NO.
l
,
9 "WHAT ABOUT CHUNKY?
10 "NO.
11 "QUESTION: WHO IS CHUNKY?" l
12 YOUR ANSWER, "I DON'T KNOW.
13 "QUESTION: YOU DON'T? ARE YOU SURE?
l
14
15
MS. FORD, WHO IS CHUNKY?"
AND YOU FINALLY ANSWERED, "JOSE," INDICATING
l
16 THE DEFENDANT.
1
17 DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU REMEMBER WHO CHUNKY WAS SIX
20 MONTHS AGO? 1
21 A. WELL, I DID SAY THAT ONE TIME WHEN I CAME TO
22 COURT IT WAS CHUNKY.
l
23
24
Q. NOT INITIALLY WHEN YOU WERE ASKED.
BE PRESSED FOR IT, RIGHT?
YOU HAD TO
1
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHO IS VICTOR RAMOS?
27 A. MY OLD NEIGHBOR. l
28 Q. WHAT'S HIS NICKNAME?
'1 J
l
r 2046
r
r
1 A. I DON'T KNOW.
2 Q. ISN'T IT CHUCK?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YEAH, PROBABLY.
PROBABLY, OR IS IT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
IS HE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
HE LIVED ACROSS THE STREET FROM YOU AT THIS
r 9 TIME, CORRECT?
r 10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE'S A GANG MEMBER?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW. I NEVER ASKED HIM.
WHAT ABOUT A PERSON NAME LOUIE ARIUS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
WHO'S THAT?
A PERSON YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH ON
r 16 SEPTEMBER 19, 2007, ABOUT A YEAR BEFORE THIS KILLING.

A. LOUIE.
r
17
18 Q. L-0-U-I-E, A-R-I-U-S?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
HOW ABOUT ENRIQUE ARVIO? (PHONETIC SPELLING)
r 21
22
A.
Q.
RAUL ATELLANO? (PHONETIC SPELLING)
r 23
24
A.
Q.
RUDOLF GARCIA?
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
RUBEN AZACAR?
NO.
r 28 Q. HE ALSO GOES BY "THIEF." YOU DON'T KNOW HIM?
r
2047
l
l
1 A. NO. WHEN WAS THIS?
2 Q. RUBEN AZACAR? l
3 A. WHEN WAS THIS?
4 Q. SEPTEMBER 19, 2007. l
5
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
WHERE?
4134 NORDICA AVENUE IN SAN DIEGO.
l
7 THE WITNESS: 4134? l
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. YES. l
10 A. WELL, I WAS THERE ONE TIME, BUT I DON'T KNOW
11 THE PEOPLE THAT I MEAN, I WENT OVER THERE FOR l
12 SOMETHING ELSE, SO
13 Q. THIS IS A KNOWN HANGOUT FOR SHELLTOWN GAMA
l
14
15
STREET.
A.
DO YOU KNOW THAT?
OKAY. YOU KNOW WHAT? I DO REMEMBER THAT DAY,
l
16 AND I DON'T KNOW WHO THE PEOPLE WERE. I WAS RIGHT l
17 THERE. I WENT RIGHT THERE WITH -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHO
18 IT WAS, BUT I WENT WITH HER FOR SOMETHING ELSE. I l
19 DIDN'T GO THERE TO HANG OUT.
20 AT THE TIME THAT I WAS RIGHT THERE, THEY RAIDED l
21 THAT HOUSE, SO -- AND I HAPPENED TO BE RIGHT THERE. AND
22 I DID NOT KNOW NOBODY RIGHT THERE.
l
23
24
Q.
STREET?
DO YOU KNOW ANY OTHER MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN GAMA
l
25 A. THE PEOPLE THAT HANG OUT RIGHT THERE. l
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF JOSE
27 LOZANO? l
28 A. JOSE LOZANO?
l
l
r 2048
r 1 Q. UH-HUH.
r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
ISN'T JOSE LOZANO YOUR SON?
YEAH, BUT HE'S NOT FROM SHELLTOWN.
r 5
6
Q. YOU DON'T RECALL ON OCTOBER 21ST OF 2010 BEING
WITH JOSE WHEN HE WAS INJURED?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
WHAT DAY?
OCTOBER 21ST OF 2010, AT 817 ETA STREET, E-T-A,
r 9 NO. 202.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
AND HE WAS INJURED?
CORRECT, AFTER YELLING "SHELLTOWN GAMA BOYS"
r 12
13
AND "38TH STREET."
A. I REMEMBER THAT, AND WHAT HAPPENED -- I DON'T
r 14
15
KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, BECAUSE I WAS AT THE STORE BUYING
SOME STUFF FOR MY DAUGHTER, AND THEN WHEN I GOT HOME,
r 16 SOMEBODY CAME OVER HERE AND TOLD ME THAT MY SON GOT
r 17
18
JUMPED BY SOME PEOPLE AT SOME APARTMENTS WHICH WAS
ACROSS THE STREET FROM MY HOUSE. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT
r 19
20
THAT WAS ABOUT.
SO I TOOK HIM -- THE AMBULANCE TOOK HIM TO THE
r 21
22
HOSPITAL, AND I GUESS THEY WENT AND INVESTIGATED THE
GUYS THAT JUMPED HIM, AND THEY SAID THAT MY SON SAID
r 23 "SHELLTOWN" AND THE OTHER ONE SAID "NATIONAL CITY."
I TOLD THEM, YOU KNOW, THAT MY SON IS NOT FROM

SO
r
24
25 SHELLTOWN, I DON'T KNOW WHY HE'S SAYING THAT, BECAUSE I
r 26
27
DON'T EVEN LET MY SON GO OUT.
HE HANGS AROUND WITH THE FRIENDS THAT LIVE
r 28 AROUND THERE, BUT I NEVER SEEN THEM HANGING OUT WITH
r
l
,
J
I
2049
l
1 GANG MEMBERS. AND I BELIEVE HE WAS WITH A FEMALE THAT
2 NIGHT. l
3 Q. ARE YOU SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
4 A. NO, I'M NOT. l
5
6
Q.
A.
ARE YOU SHELLTOWN GAMA?
NO, I'M NOT.
l
7 Q. TELL US ABOUT YOUR TATTOOS ON YOUR HAND,
l
8 MS. FORD.
9 A. WHAT ABOUT THEM? l
10 Q. WHAT DO THEY MEAN?
11 A. IT MEANS 1904. l
12 Q. WHERE? LET'S SEE.
13 A. KNUCKLE.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
DO YOU ALSO HAVE THREE DOTS ON THAT HAND?
YEAH.
l
16 Q. WHAT DO THE THREE DOTS STAND FOR? l
17 A. MY CRAZY LIFE.
18 Q. WHY DO YOU PUT THAT ON YOUR HAND? l
19 A. I PUT THAT ON MY HAND WHEN I WAS 14 YEARS OLD.
20 THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. l
21
22
Q.
OTHER HAND?
DON'T YOU ALSO HAVE "JOKER" TATTOOED ON THE
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
YOU HAVE A PRIOR FELONY CONVICTION FOR AUTO
l
25 THEFT, CORRECT? l
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. NOW, LET'S GET TO THE MURDER. l
28 WHAT WERE YOU DOING BEFORE YOU WENT TO THE
l
l
r 2050
r 1 PARK?
r 2 A. DRINKING.
r
l
3
4
Q.
A.
WHERE?
AT SOMEBODY'S HOUSE.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHOSE HOUSE?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO WERE YOU DRINKING WITH?
FLORENCIO AND CHRISTIAN.
r 9 Q. HOW LONG?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
WHERE WAS THIS HOUSE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
DID YOU HAVE TO DRIVE THERE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I THINK WE DROVE, YEAH.
FROM YOUR HOUSE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE WE WERE BEFORE THAT.
WHY NOT?
r 18 A. BECAUSE IT WAS LIKE TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO.
r 19
20
I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE I WAS BEFORE.
Q. YOU TESTIFIED TO THINGS THAT HAPPENED AFTER
r 21
22
THAT TIME.
TIME?
WHY CAN'T YOU TESTIFY TO THINGS BEFORE THAT
r 23
24
A. BECAUSE I WAS DRINKING ALREADY.
REMEMBER WHERE I WAS BEFORE THAT.

I DON'T
r 25 Q. YOU ONLY REMEMBER WHERE YOU WERE AFTER?
r 26 A. WELL, I REMEMBER GETTING TO THE HOUSE AND WE
27 WERE DRINKING. I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE I WAS. I WAS
r 28 PROBABLY WITH MY KIDS. I DON'T KNOW, WITH SOMEBODY.
r
2051
l
l J
1 Q. SO THE MORE AND MORE YOU DRANK, THE MORE AND

2 MORE INTOXICATED YOU GOT; WOULD THAT BE CORRECT? l
3 A. I WASN'T THAT INTOXICATED, BUT I WAS.
4 Q. BUT YOU'RE TELLING US YOU CAN'T REMEMBER STUFF
5 BECAUSE YOU WERE DRINKING, CORRECT?
6 A. NO.
7
8
Q. YOU DIDN'T JUST SAY YOU COULDN'T TELL US WHERE
YOU WERE BEFORE THE PARTY AT THE HOUSE BECAUSE YOU WERE
l
9 DRINKING? l J
10 A. NOT BECAUSE I WAS DRINKING, BUT JUST BECAUSE I

11 DON'T REMEMBER WHERE I WAS AT. l
12 Q. BUT YOU REMEMBER EVERYTHING LATER IN THE NIGHT
13 AS YOU DRANK MORE?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH, I REMEMBER.
DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
l
18 BY MR. TROCHA: l
19 Q. YOU GOT TO THE PARK AT 8:00, YOU SAID, CORRECT?
20 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT TIME IT WAS. PROBABLY l
9:00.
21
22 Q. THEN YOU WERE SMOKING WEED AND DRINKING AT THE

l
23
24
PARK, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
25 Q. YOU TOLD US YOUR CAR WAS PARKED AT THE TOP OF l
26 THE HILL, SOMEWHERE IN THAT ALLEY BY THE TREES, CORRECT?
27 A. SOMEWHERE. l
28 Q. MS. FORD, WE'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 39 BEHIND
l
l
r 2052
r 1 YOU.
r 2 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DON'T? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH CAR
r 5
6
MS. BANUELOS SHOWED UP IN IF YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE THAT
CAR?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
WELL, I KNOW SHE SHOWED UP IN HER CAR.
WHAT KIND OF CAR DID SHE DRIVE?
r 9 A. CAMRY.
r IS THAT A CAMRY?
10 Q.
11 A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU CAN'T RECOGNIZE THAT CAR?
WELL, YEAH, IT'S PROBABLY HER CAR.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
IS IT HER CAR OR IS IT MAYBE HER CAR?
WELL, IS THAT A CAMRY? I DON'T KNOW WHAT
r 16
17
Q. WELL, YOU TESTIFIED A FEW MINUTES AGO THAT YOU
SAW MS. BANUELOS PULL UP IN HER CAR, AND YOU KNEW IT WAS
r 18 HER BECAUSE SHE PULLED UP IN HER CAR.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
UH-HUH.
IS THAT HER CAR?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW. I GUESS.
LET'S JUST ASSUME IT IS.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THESE QUESTIONS.
OBJECTION. FOUNDATION FOR
r 26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. DO YOU SEE WHERE THAT CAR IS PARKED, MS. FORD?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2053
l
l
1 Q. THAT'S NOT OVER BY THE BIG TREE, AS YOU POINTED
2 OUT ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2, IS IT? l

3 THE COURT: WHOSE CAR ARE WE TALKING ABOUT
4 HERE? l
5
6 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: THIS GRAY CAR RIGHT HERE, YOUR
THIS WOULD BE THE ONE IDENTIFIED AS

l
7 MS. BANUELOS'S CAR BY THE POLICE OFFICERS WHO IMPOUNDED
l
8 IT.
9 THE COURT: WASN'T THAT THE CAR THAT WAS PARKED l

10 ON FRANKLIN?
11 MR. TROCHA: THIS IS PARKED ON FRANKLIN, l

12
13
CORRECT. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MS. FORD'S CAR.
l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
OBJECTION AS TO FOUNDATION.
I'M GOING TO RENEW MY
SHE SAID SHE DOESN'T KNOW
l
16 IF THAT IS MS. BANUELOS'S CAR. l
17 THE COURT: WELL, HE CAN CERTAINLY ASK IF THIS
18 IS WHERE THE CAR WAS PARKED, OR QUESTIONS TO THAT l
19 EFFECT. OVERRULED.
20 BY MR. TROCHA: l
21
22
Q.
A.
IS THIS WHERE THE CAR WAS PARKED?
I DON'T REMEMBER. I THOUGHT IT WAS PARKED MORE

l
23
24
OVER HERE.
Q. WELL, LET'S LOOK AT THE CARS THAT WERE PARKED

l
25 OVER THERE. l
26 SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 41, WE SEE THE ALLEY ON
27 THE LEFT, CORRECT, MS. FORD? l
28 A. UH-HUH, YES.
l
l
r 2054
r 1 Q. AND WE SEE A CAR ON THE RIGHT, DO WE NOT?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
IS THAT A CAMRY?
NO.
r 5
6
Q. SHOWING YOU NOW PEOPLE'S 43, IT'S A
BLUISH-GREENISH CAR PARKED BEHIND THE RED EL CAMINO.
r 7
8 A.
IS THAT A CAMRY?
NO.
r 9 Q. DO EITHER OF THESE CARS LOOK LIKE
r
10 MS. BANUELOS'S CAR?
11 A. NO.
r 12
13
Q. BOTH OF THOSE CARS ARE PARKED BY THE TREE YOU
POINTED OUT ON PEOPLE'S 2, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
SO SHE DIDN'T PARK BY THAT TREE, DID SHE?
r 16
17
A.
REMEMBER.
OKAY. WELL, MAYBE I WAS WRONG. MAYBE I DON'T
r 18 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO PEOPLE'S 39.
r 19
20 A.
CAN YOU SEE WHERE THIS CAR IS PARKED?
YEAH.
r 21
22
Q.
THE CAR?
DO YOU SEE THE FENCE ON THE PASSENGER SIDE OF
r 23
24
A. UH-HUH.
THE COURT: YES?
r 26 BY MR. TROCHA:
27 Q. DO YOU SEE THE LARGE FAN PALM IN THE YARD ON
r 28 THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT CAR?
r
2055
l
l
1
2
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
THE PALM TREE?
YES.
, 1
3 THE WITNESS: YES.

4 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
5
6
Q. DO YOU SEE THE OTHER PALM TREE RIGHT NEXT TO
THAT PALM TREE?
l
7 A. YES.
l
8 Q. WE CAN SEE THE LEAVES OF THAT PALM TREE,
9 CORRECT? 1
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. WE CAN SEE THE HOUSE IN THIS PICTURE, CORRECT? l
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. WE CAN SEE A FENCE RUNNING ALONG THE SIDE OF
l
14
15
THE ALLEY OF THAT HOUSE, CORRECT?
A. UH-HUH, YES.
l
16 Q. WHY CAN WE NOT SEE YOUR CAR IN THIS PICTURE? l
17 A. I DON'T KNOW.
18 Q. CAN YOU SEE YOUR CAR IN THIS PICTURE? 1
19 A. NO.
20 Q. PEOPLE'S 40, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE ALLEY, l
21
22
CORRECT?
A. WELL, I MEAN, YOU CAN SEE FROM RIGHT THERE.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHERE?
FROM THE ALLEY TO RIGHT THERE WHERE THE CAR IS.
l
25 Q. WHERE IS YOUR CAR IN THAT PICTURE? l
26 A. IT'S BY WHERE -- BEHIND THAT PALM. YOU CAN'T
27 SEE IT. l
28 Q. YOU CAN'T SEE YOUR CAR IN THAT PICTURE, CAN
l
l
r 2056
r
r 1
2
YOU, IN PEOPLE'S 40; IS THAT CORRECT?
THE COURT: MA'AM, IS THAT CORRECT?
r 3
4
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
I SEE MY CAR RIGHT THERE.
r 5
6
Q. RIGHT. WHEN WE GO TO PEOPLE'S 46, THIS IS WHEN
WE CAN SEE YOUR CAR, CORRECT, MS. FORD?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
BE CORRECT.
WHEN WE PASS THE FENCE, WHEN WE PASS THE PALM
r 9 TREES, CORRECT?
10 A. CORRECT.
r 11 Q. YET YOU TOLD US THE WHOLE TIME YOU WERE
r 12
13
STANDING BY YOUR CAR IN THIS ALLEYWAY WHEN EVERYTHING
WAS HAPPENING, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW THEN WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANYBODY ON THE
r 16 STREET RUN AWAY WHEN TREES AND FENCES AND OTHER

17 OBSTRUCTIONS WERE CLEARLY IN THE WAY?
r 18 A. BECAUSE I WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE BY MY DOOR.
19 Q. YOU WERE. SO WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM
r 20 THAT LOCATION?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE'S 50. THIS IS A VIEW FROM YOUR DOOR,
r 23
24
MS. FORD.
A. YES.
r 25 Q. WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE CAMRY IN THIS PICTURE,
r 26
27
CAN WE?
A. NO. BUT YOU CAN SEE IT RIGHT THERE BY THE CAR.
r 28 Q. WELL, WE CAN'T SEE THE CAMRY ITSELF AT ALL, CAN
r
2057
l
l
1 WE, MS. FORD?
2 A. NO. BUT I WAS ABLE TO SEE THEM. l
3 Q. DO YOU HAVE EXTRAORDINARY VISION, MS. FORD?
5
6
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SUSTAINED.
l
7
8
Q. IF WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE CAR -- IN FACT, WE
CAN'T EVEN SEE MOST OF THE HOUSE ACROSS THE STREET FROM
l
9 THE CAR, CORRECT, MS. FORD? l
10 A. I CAN SEE.
11 Q. YOU CAN? YOU CAN SEE CLEARLY, STANDING IN THIS l
12 LOCATION, MR. DOMINGUEZ HAVING AN ARGUMENT WITH HIS
13 GIRLFRIEND?
l
14
15
A. WELL, I MEAN THE CAR WAS, I GUESS, RIGHT THERE.
I COULD SEE FROM RIGHT THERE.
l
16 Q. THE ONLY REASON YOU KNOW IT'S RIGHT THERE, l
17 MS. FORD, IS BECAUSE I SHOWED IT TO YOU A FEW MINUTES
18 AGO, CORRECT? l
19 A. I MEAN, EVEN IF IT WASN'T THERE, I COULD STILL
20 SEE ALL THE WAY DOWN THERE. l
21 Q. WELL, AS YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE, YOU DIDN'T EVEN
l
22
23
KNOW THE CAR WAS THERE, CORRECT, MS. FORD?
A. WELL, I GUESS I THOUGHT -- I THOUGH I SAW IT ON
,
j
24 THIS SIDE OF THE ALLEY.
25 Q. RIGHT. AND IF YOU SAW IT ON THAT SIDE, YOU l
26 MIGHT HAVE HAD A CHANCE OF SEEING SOMETHING, CORRECT?
27 A. SEEING WHAT? l
28 Q. WELL, LOOKING AT THIS PICTURE, WE STILL HAVE
1
l
r 2058
r 1 TREES, BUSHES AND OTHER THINGS OBSTRUCTING YOUR VIEW OF

r 2 THE WEST SIDE OF FRANKLIN, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
THAT WOULD BE THE SAME LOCATION THAT YOU
r 5
6
TESTIFIED TO MS. BANUELOS PARKING HER CAR, CORRECT?
A. RIGHT.
r 7
8
Q. SO EVEN IF WE'RE ASSUMING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS
TRUE, HOW COULD YOU SEE ANYBODY WITH THOSE TREES AND
r 9
10
THOSE BUSHES IN THE WAY WHERE YOU SAY MS. BANUELOS
PARKED HER CAR?
r 11 A. YOU CAN.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU CAN?
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
HOW?
WELL, I MEAN, IF YOU'RE AROUND MY CAR, YOU
r 16
17
COULD.
Q. WELL, WE'RE TAKING THE PICTURE RIGHT FROM YOUR
r 18 CAR, MS. FORD, AND WE CAN'T; WOULD YOU AGREE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I CAN SEE.
LET'S GET BACK TO WHERE THE CAR WAS ACTUALLY
r 21
22
PARKED.
IF SOMEBODY WAS INSIDE THAT CAR, THERE IS NO
r 23
24
WAY YOU COULD SEE THAT, CORRECT?
A. I NEVER SAID THEY WERE INSIDE THE CAR.
r 25 Q. LET'S JUST ASSUME THOUGH FOR A MOMENT THESE
r 26
27
PEOPLE WERE INSIDE THAT CAR.
YOU CAN'T SEE THAT, CAN YOU?
r 28 A. OBVIOUSLY NOT.
r
2059
1
l
1 Q. SO IF SOMEBODY CLAIMED THEY WERE ARGUING INSIDE
2 THAT CAR FOR 30 MINUTES TO AN HOUR, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE l
3 BEEN ABLE TO SEE THAT.
l
4
6
A.
Q.
IF THEY WERE INSIDE, NO.
BUT IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY, THOUGH, THAT IF
THEY'RE OUTSIDE THE CAR, YOU CAN?
, J
8
A. YEAH, BECAUSE THEY WERE RIGHT THERE, STANDING
RIGHT THERE.
l
9 Q. THIS TREE THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, JUST THE l
10 SHORTER ONE, THE FAN PALM TREE, HOW TALL DO YOU THINK
11 THAT TREE IS? l
12 A. I DON'T KNOW. I HAVE NO IDEA.
13 Q. TALLER THAN A HUMAN BEING?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
PROBABLY.
AND THAT TREE IS AT LEAST THREE TO FOUR FEET UP
l
16 OFF THE GROUND FROM THE STREET BELOW, CORRECT?
l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. IT'S 10 OR 12 FEET WIDE? l
19 A. I DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. IT BLOCKS OUT AN ENTIRE CAR, CORRECT? l
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. YET YOU'RE SAYING YOU COULD SEE SOMEBODY
l
23
24
STANDING NEXT TO THAT CAR, ARGUING.
A. I DON'T KNOW.
l
25 Q. YOU ALSO SAID YOU COULD SEE THESE PEOPLE, WHEN l
26 THE GUNSHOTS HAPPENED, RUN TO THE EAST. DO YOU REMEMBER
27 THAT? l
28 A. YEAH.
l
l
r 2060
r
1 Q. MS. FORD, YOU TOLD US THOUGH AS SOON AS THE
r 2 GUNSHOTS HAPPENED, YOU TURNED AND WERE GOING TO GET INTO
r 3
4
YOUR CAR, AND THEN YOU DECIDED TO RUN DOWN TOWARDS 40TH
AND OCEAN VIEW, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THAT'S WHAT I DID.
WELL, IF YOU'RE FACING THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION
r 7
8
OF WHAT WE CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S 50, HOW COULD YOU SEE
ANYTHING ON FRANKLIN AT ALL?
r 9 A. BECAUSE YOU COULD SEE FROM RIGHT THERE FROM THE
r 10
11
ALLEY AND THE CORNER.
Q. BUT YOU TOLD US WHEN THE GUNSHOTS HAPPENED, THE
r 12
13
FIRST THING YOU DID WAS TURNED AND GOT INTO YOUR CAR.
THAT'S WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I DID TURN AND GO -- I WENT INTO MY CAR.
WHEN YOU HEARD THE SIRENS, YOU GOT OUT OF YOUR
r 16 CAR AND RAN SOUTHWEST TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH,

17 CORRECT?
r 18 A. CORRECT.
19 Q. SO YOU NEVER EVEN LOOKED AT FRANKLIN WHEN THE
r 20 GUNSHOTS HAPPENED.
r 21
22
A. WELL, YEAH.
LOOKING DOWN THE ALLEY.
I WAS LOOKING THAT WAY. I WAS
THAT'S WHERE I WAS LOOKING AT,
r 23
24
AND THAT'S WHEN I SAW PEOPLE RUNNING.
MY CAR AND TRIED TO LEAVE, AND I GOT OUT.
AND I RAN BACK IN
r 25 Q. YOU KEPT LOOKING DOWN THE ALLEY WHILE TRYING TO
r
26 GET INTO YOUR CAR AND DRIVE AWAY?
27 A. WELL, I WAS TRYING TO SEE WHERE CHRISTIAN WAS.
r 28 THAT'S WHY.
r
2061
l
l
1 Q. YOU LEFT WITHOUT HIM, CORRECT?
2 A. CORRECT. l
3 Q. DIDN'T YOU SAY EARLIER IN ANOTHER HEARING THAT
4 YOU ACTUALLY JUMPED A FENCE AND RAN TOWARDS CUYAMACA?
A. NO, I DIDN'T SAY I RAN TOWARDS CUYAMACA. ,
l
,
5
1
6 Q. YOU NEVER SAID THAT?
7 A. NO, I NEVER SAID THAT. I SAID I JUMPED THE
J
8 FENCE AND I RAN TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW.

9 Q. THE LITTLE FENCE? l
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. THE LITTLE FENCE WE CAN SEE BETWEEN THE PARK l
12 AND THE ALLEY?
13 A. YEAH.
l
14
15
Q. SO IF SOMEONE MISTOOK THAT AS JUMPING THE
BIGGER FENCE ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE, THAT WOULD BE IN
l
16 ERROR.
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND YOU RAN THROUGH THE PARK. 1
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND THE REASON YOU DIDN'T DRIVE AWAY IS BECAUSE l
21 YOU HEARD POLICE SIRENS, CORRECT?
22 A. CORRECT.
l
23
24
Q. MS. FORD, IF A POLICE CAR WAS SITTING AT THE
CORNER OF OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH, DID YOU SEE IT?
l
25 A. I SAW A LOT OF COPS COMING THIS WAY WHEN I WAS l
26 WALKING UP.
27 Q. DID YOU RUN TOWARDS THE POLICE CAR? l
28 A. I RAN ACROSS THE PARK. WHEN I GOT TO THE
l
l
r 2062
r
r
1 CORNER, I STARTED WALKING.
2 Q. DID YOU GET CONTACTED BY ANY POLICE OFFICERS?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO, I DIDN'T.
IN FACT, YOU WERE TRYING TO ESCAPE FROM THE
r 5
6
POLICE, CORRECT?
A. I GUESS.
r 7
8
Q.
RIGHT?
SO YOU WOULDN'T RUN TOWARDS THE POLICE OFFICER,
r 9 A. NO.
r 10
11
Q. IF A POLICE OFFICER WAS THERE, THEY MOST LIKELY
WOULD HAVE SEEN IF YOU WERE STANDING ON THE CORNER OF
r 12
13
OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH, CORRECT?
r 14
15
SPECULATION.
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE
r 18 CORNER WHEN YOU TURNED AND RAN?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
TO THAT CORNER?
YEAH.
r
r
21
22
A. I WASN'T TRYING TO SEE WHAT WAS OVER THERE.
JUST RAN THAT WAY.

I
AND I DON'T RECALL A COP BEING RIGHT
r 23
24
THERE.
Q. LET'S GET INTO YOUR STATEMENTS TO THE POLICE.
r 25 YOU ACTUALLY MADE THREE STATEMENTS TO THE

POLICE INSTEAD OF THE FIRST TWO WE HEARD, CORRECT?
r
26
27 A. I GUESS.
r 28 Q. IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS WHEN THEY STARTED
r
2063
1
l
1 CONTACTING YOU BACK ON SEPTEMBER 15, 2008, YOU FOUND OUT
2 YOUR CAR WAS IMPOUNDED AND YOU WENT DOWN THERE TO GET l
3 IT, CORRECT?
4 A. CORRECT. l
5
6
Q. EXCEPT WHEN YOU WENT DOWN THERE TO GET IT, YOU
TOLD THEM YOU WEREN'T EVEN IN THE PARK AT ALL. DO YOU
1
7 RECALL THAT?
9 Q. DO YOU RECALL ANYTHING OF WHAT YOU TOLD THE l
10 POLICE AT THAT TIME?
11 A. THAT I WASN'T THERE. I THINK I SAID THAT. l
12 Q. YOU WERE DRIVING AROUND WITH ADRIANA ALVAREZ,
13 UNDER THE INFLUENCE. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YOU SAW A COP, YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GET PULLED
l
16 OVER FOR A DUI, SO YOU PULLED INTO THE ALLEY. DO YOU l
17 REMEMBER SAYING THAT?
18 A. PROBABLY. l
19 Q. THEN YOU SAID YOU LEFT YOUR CAR THERE, WALKED
20 TO YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE, BUT HIS TRUCK WASN'T THERE, l
21 CORRECT?
22 A. CORRECT.
l
23
24
Q. THEN YOU WENT AROUND TO YOUR EX-BOYFRIEND'S
MOM'S HOUSE AND SHE TOOK YOU HOME, CORRECT?
l
25 A. I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT. l
26 Q. WOULD YOUR EX-BOYFRIEND'S MOM BE ANNA MARTINEZ?
27 A. THAT'S MY BOYFRIEND'S MOM. l
28 Q. WELL, AT THE TIME YOU WERE TALKING TO THE
l
l
r 2064
r 1
r
POLICE, YOU WERE CALLING HIM YOUR EX-BOYFRIEND.
2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
SO THAT WOULD BE ANNA MARTINEZ.
YES.
r 5
6
Q. SO ANNA MARTINEZ IS WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE
FROM THAT PARK.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU WOKE UP THE NEXT MORNING AROUND 9:00A.M.,

r
l
9 WENT TO LOOK FOR YOUR CAR AND IT WAS GONE, CORRECT?
10 A. YES.
r 11 Q. FINALLY GOT AHOLD OF THE POLICE, TOLD THEM YOU
r 12
13
WERE DRINKING AT YOUR HOUSE ON ETA STREET, E-T-A,
CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
PROBABLY.
WAS THAT THE HOUSE YOU WERE LIVING IN AT THE
r 16
17
TIME?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. YOU WERE DRINKING BEER. YOU HAD ABOUT FOUR
r 19
20
CANS OF BUD LIGHT, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. YOU STARTED DRINKING AROUND 12:00 P.M., STOPPED
DRINKING AROUND 4:00 P.M., CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
UH-HUH, YES.
THEN YOU WENT TO PICK UP ADRIANA AT HER WORK AT
r
[ 25 SBARRO'S PIZZA IN PLAZA BONITA, CORRECT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO, AND
r 28 THAT'S WHEN YOU WERE DRIVING DOWN OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD,
r
2065
1
l
1 CORRECT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. EXCEPT THAT'S NOT THE ONLY THING YOU DID WITH
4 THE POLICE THAT DAY, CORRECT?

l
5
6
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT I DID.
WELL, YOU ALSO HAD ADRIANA COME IN AND TELL THE
1
7 EXACT SAME STORY, CORRECT?
l
8 A. CORRECT.
l
9
10
11
Q.
A.
Q.
NEITHER OF THEM WERE TRUE, RIGHT?
RIGHT.
WHY DID YOU DO THIS?
,
12 A. BECAUSE I WAS SCARED.
13 Q. OF WHAT?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
OF THE COPS.
WHY?
l
l
,
16 A. I DON'T KNOW. BECAUSE THEY SCARE ME.
17 Q. SO YOU DECIDED TO HAVE A FRIEND GO TO THE
18 POLICE AND LIE TO THEM TOO?
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. WHY DID YOU WANT TO GET ANOTHER GIRL INVOLVED 1
21
22
IN YOUR LIE?
A. I DIDN'T WANT TO. IT JUST HAPPENED.
l
23
24
Q. BECAUSE UP TO THIS POINT YOU'VE DONE NOTHING
WRONG, CORRECT?
l
25 A. CORRECT. l
26 Q. WERE YOU AFRAID OF THE POLICE BECAUSE OF THE
27 SHOOTING AT THE PARK? l
28 A. YEAH.
l
l
r 2066
r 1
r
Q. WAS IT BECAUSE YOU GAVE A RIDE TO THE PARK OF
2 THE SHOOTER, YOU TOOK THE SHOOTER THERE?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
WHAT SHOOTER?
MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
HE DIDN'T SHOOT NOBODY.
OH, NO, THAT'S BECAUSE YOU SAW HIM ARGUING IN
r 7
8
THE STREET, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 9
10
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13 POLICE.
Q. LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR STATEMENTS TO THE
r 14
15
THAT WAS EARLY IN THE MORNING.
10:00 IN THE MORNING.
IT WAS ABOUT
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NOT REALLY.
WELL, YOU ACTUALLY WENT BACK ON YOUR OWN ACCORD
r 18 LATER IN THE DAY, AROUND 2:00 IN THE AFTERNOON. DO YOU
r 19
20
REMEMBER THAT?
A. I WENT WHERE?
r 21
22 DAY.
Q. YOU WENT BACK TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THE SAME
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.
TOLD THEM A DIFFERENT STORY THAT TIME, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
CAN YOU KEEP UP?
r 27 A. YEAH.
r 28 Q. YOU TOLD THEM, "YOU GUYS ALREADY KNOW I WAS
r
2067
1
l
1 RIGHT THERE. I GOT THERE PROBABLY AROUND 8:00 P.M.,"
2 CORRECT? l
3 A. YEAH.
4 Q. YOU TOLD THEM YOU WERE WITH SOME GUY THAT YOU l
5
6
HAD JUST MET; YOU WERE IN THE PARK DRINKING, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
7
8
Q. IT WAS YOU AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE THERE.
"I DON'T KNOW THOSE GUYS," CORRECT?
l
9 A. CORRECT. l
10 Q. "I WAS DRINKING WITH A GUY I WAS WITH BY MY
11 CAR," CORRECT? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. "THERE WAS BEER THERE. I WAS OFFERED A BEER.
l
14
15
I GUESS THE GUY I WAS WITH KNEW THEM.
GUYS," CORRECT?
I DON'T KNOW THE
l
16 A. RIGHT.
l
17 Q. "IT WAS HIS IDEA TO GO TO THE PARK," CORRECT?
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. THIS PERSON YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU TOLD THE ~
20 POLICE THIS WAS NOT CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, CORRECT? 1
21 A. YES.
22 Q. BECAUSE YOU WERE MAD AT YOUR BOYFRIEND AND YOU
l
23
24
LEFT YOUR HOUSE TO GO TO A PARTY, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
l
25 Q. YOU MET THIS GUY, AND HE WAS LIKE, "LET'S GO l
26 OVER TO THE ALLEY. I WAS DRIVING. HE WAS IN THE
27 PASSENGER SEAT," CORRECT? l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
l
r 2068
r 1 Q. HE WAS IN HIS TWENTIES. YOU DON'T REMEMBER
r 2 WHAT HE WAS WEARING, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU WEREN'T INTRODUCED TO ANYBODY; THERE WERE
r 5
6
GUYS AND A COUPLE OF GIRLS THERE; THEY WERE IN THE PARK,
CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
THEY ALL HAD BEER, BUDWEISER IN CANS. "I JUST
r 9
10
THREW THE CANS ON THE GROUND IN THE ALLEY, BACK BEHIND
MY CAR," CORRECT?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13
Q.
OPEN.
"NO, I DIDN'T HAVE A STEREO ON OR THE DOORS
I WAS JUST STANDING BY MY CAR," CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
"THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE, PROBABLY ABOUT 10
r 16
17
PEOPLE. I DIDN'T RECOGNIZE ANYBODY OR REMEMBER WHAT
CARS WERE THERE," CORRECT?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. YOU SAID "THEN EVERYBODY JUST STARTED FIGHTING.
I DON'T KNOW WHY. THINGS GOT OUT OF CONTROL," CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
"I HEARD GUNSHOTS, AND THEN I JUST LEFT BECAUSE
r 23
24
I WAS SCARED," CORRECT?
A. YEAH.
r 25 Q. "IT WAS EVERYBODY FIGHTING. I DON'T REMEMBER
r 26
27
IF THE GUY I CAME WITH WAS FIGHTING," CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 28 Q. "I JUMPED OVER THE FENCE WHEN I LEFT. I WENT
r
2069
1
l
1 OVER A FENCE, BUT I WAS BY MYSELF. I WALKED ALL THE WAY
2 TO OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD," RIGHT? l
3 A. YES.
4 Q. "NO, I DON'T KNOW IF CHRISTIAN IS A DOCUMENTED l
5
6
38TH STREET SHELLTOWN," CORRECT?
A. YES.
1
7
8
Q.
KNOW THEM.
"NO, I'M NOT AFRAID. IT'S JUST THAT I DON'T
I DIDN'T SEE ANY CARS DRIVE UP. THERE WAS A
l
~
9
10
11
SKINNY GIRL THERE," CORRECT?
A.
Q.
YES.
"I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING ANY BIG OR FAT WOMEN
, )
12 THERE. THERE WERE SOME BIG GUYS THERE. NO, I DON'T

13 REMEMBER ANYBODY WITH A LOT OF TATTOOS BEING THERE,"
l
14
15
CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. "THERE WERE YOUNG AND OLD PEOPLE THERE. YOUNG
l
17 IS LIKE 16, OLD IS LIKE 20 YEARS OLD," CORRECT?
18 A. YES. 1
19 Q. YOU SAID YOU DID GET INTO YOUR CAR TO LEAVE. ~
20 YOU TURNED ON THE ENGINE AND HEADLIGHTS. "I SAW A COP 1

21 COMING DOWN FRANKLIN. I JUST TURNED OFF THE IGNITION
l
22
23
24
AND LEFT," CORRECT?
A.
Q.
YES.
THEY ASKED YOU ABOUT VICTOR RAMOS TOO, RIGHT?
,
25 A. RIGHT. 1
26 Q. YOU TOLD THEM YOU DON'T KNOW HIM AS VICTOR
27 RAMOS, CORRECT? l
l
l
r 2070
r 1 Q. YOU TOLD THEM YOU KNEW HIM AS CHUCK, CORRECT?
r 2 A. PROBABLY.
r 3
4
Q. AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW HE GOT INTO THE TRUNK OF
YOUR CAR, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
MS. FORD, IF YOU WERE BY YOUR CAR THE ENTIRE
r 7
8
TIME AND THEN RAN ACTUALLY PAST THE TRUNK OF YOUR CAR,
HOW COULD YOU MISS SOMEBODY GETTING INTO THE TRUNK OF
r 9 YOUR CAR?
r 10
11
A. WELL, I DIDN'T SEE NOBODY GOING INTO MY TRUNK.
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE STARTED
r
t
12 LATE. DOES ANYONE NEED A BREAK? I'M HAPPY TO TAKE A
13 BREAK IF YOU WOULD LIKE, OR WE CAN PRESS AHEAD. ANYONE?
r 14
15
DON'T BE SHY.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY
r 16
17
CONTINUE.
r 18 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 19
20
Q. THEN WE GET TO THE THIRD INTERVIEW ON
FEBRUARY 2, 2009, THE ONE WHERE YOUR KIDS WERE BROUGHT
r 21
22
UP AT; DO YOU REMEMBER?
A. YEAH.
r 23
24
Q. IS IT TRUE THAT IF A GANG MEMBER HAS KIDS AND
THEY GET ARRESTED, SOMETHING BAD MIGHT HAPPEN TO THEIR
r 25 KIDS, SUCH AS HAVE TO GO TO A FOSTER HOME BECAUSE THEIR
r 26
27
PARENTS ARE IN PRISON?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I'VE NEVER BEEN IN TROUBLE
r 28 BEFORE, SO I DON'T KNOW.
r
2071
l
l
1 Q. NEVER BEEN IN TROUBLE BEFORE?
2 A. WELL, I MEAN, THAT NEVER HAPPENED TO ME. 1
3 Q. BUT, I MEAN, BEING A GANG MEMBER AND HAVING
4 KIDS, PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA, RIGHT? l
A. I'M NOT A GANG MEMBER.
5
6 Q. NOW, DURING THIS INTERVIEW, YOU SAID THAT YOUR
l
7
8
STATEMENTS THAT YOU HAD TOLD BEFORE HAD NOT CHANGED AND
YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK,
l
9 CORRECT? l
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. SO YOUR MEMORY HAS GOTTEN EVEN WORSE BY l
12 FEBRUARY 2, 2009, YES?
13 A. I GUESS. l
14
15
Q. I MEAN, NOW WE'RE NOT EVEN AT MOUNTAIN VIEW
PARK AT ALL, CORRECT, ACCORDING TO THAT STATEMENT?
l
16 A. WHEN I TALKED TO --
l
17
18
Q.
A.
JANA BEARD.
YES.
, }
19 Q. THEN WE HEARD ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION YOU HAD
20 WITH JOE MALDONADO. THAT HAPPENED ON JUNE 30, 2010, l
21 RIGHT?
l
22 A. RIGHT.
,
,
23 Q. AND THAT WAS AT A JACK IN THE BOX. EXCEPT HIS
24 FIRST CONVERSATION WAS THIS, MS. FORD: IT WAS YOU
25 SAYING THAT YOU WERE AT THE PARK, DRINKING ALCOHOL WITH
26 TWO OF YOUR FRIENDS, CORRECT?
27 THE COURT: THIS IS A CONVERSATION WITH l
28 MR. MALDONADO?
l
l
r 2072
r 2 THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THAT TO MR. MALDONADO?
r 3
4
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. TROCHA:
I DON'T REMEMBER.
r 5
6
Q. YOU ASKED -- OR HE ASKED YOU IF YOU SAW CHUNKY
AT THE PARK, AND YOU SAID YES. DO YOU RECALL THAT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU RECALL THIS CONVERSATION AT ALL?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
PROBABLY.
YOU SAID THAT CHUNKY WAS STANDING NEAR THE
r 11 BOTTOM OF THE HILL BY THE ALLEY, TALKING TO AN UNKNOWN
r 12
13
FEMALE FOR ABOUT 15 MINUTES.
THAT?
DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING
r. 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH, I GUESS.
AT THAT POINT YOU HEARD GUNSHOTS ABOUT 60 TO 70
r 16
17
FEET AWAY FROM WHERE YOU WERE STANDING, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 18 Q. AND THAT WAS IN THE ALLEY, RIGHT?

19 A. YES.
( 20 Q. YOU SAID THEY SOUNDED LIKE THEY WERE FIRED WEST
r 21
22
OF WHERE YOU WERE STANDING, YES?
A. PROBABLY.
r 23
24
Q. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T SEE THE SHOOTER BECAUSE YOU
WEREN'T LOOKING IN THE DIRECTION OF WHERE THE GUNSHOTS
r 25 WERE FIRED. THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID, RIGHT?
r
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. HE ASKED YOU IF CHUNKY WAS THE SHOOTER, AND YOU
r 28 SAID, "NO, BECAUSE THE SHOTS WERE FIRED AWAY FROM WHERE
r
2073
1
l
1 CHUNKY AND THE GIRL WERE STANDING," RIGHT?
2 A. RIGHT. 1
3 Q. YOU NEVER SAW CHUNKY WITH A GUN OR OTHER
4 WEAPONS. THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD MR. MALDONADO, RIGHT? l
5 A. RIGHT.
6 Q. YOU SAID YOU THEN LOOKED OVER TO WHERE CHUNKY
l
7
8
AND THE GIRL WERE AT AND SAW THEM RUN, CORRECT?
A. RIGHT.
l
9 Q. YOU SAW CHUNKY RUN FROM THE PARK TOWARDS 1
10 FRANKLIN AVENUE, AND THEN YOU LOST SIGHT OF HIM, RIGHT?
11 A. RIGHT. l
12 Q. SO IN THIS STATEMENT HE'S IN THE PARK.
13 A. DOWN THE ALLEY. l
14
15
Q.
A.
NOT BY A CAR SOMEWHERE, ARGUING.
THEY WERE DOWN THE ALLEY.
1
16 Q. THEN YOU HEARD POLICE SIRENS -- I'M SORRY --
l
17 YOU RAN TO YOUR CAR AND THOUGHT ABOUT DRIVING AWAY,
18 CORRECT? 1
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. AND THEN YOU HEARD POLICE SIRENS AND INSTEAD 1
21 RAN TOWARDS 40TH AND OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD, YES?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. YOU WERE ASKED IF THERE WAS ANY FIGHTING
AMONGST THE HOMIES BEFORE THE SHOOTING OCCURRED, AND YOU
1
25 SAID, "YES," CORRECT? 1
26 A. YES.
27 Q. YOU SAID THERE WAS A GROUP OF YOUNGSTERS, AND l
28 YOU DIDN'T KNOW "AWAY FROM HER FIGHTING" -- YOU SAID
l
l
r 2074
r 1 "EACH OTHER" -- YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS FIGHTING EACH
r 2 OTHER, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I GUESS.
YOU SAID CHUNKY WASN'T INVOLVED IN THE
r 5
6
FIGHTING, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q. YOU SAID, THOUGH, CHUNKY WAS NEAR YOU AND
DRINKING AND TALKING TO THE UNKNOWN FEMALE AT THE TIME
r 9
10
OF THE FIGHTING, CORRECT?
A. PROBABLY.
r 11 Q. SO HE WASN'T ARGUING DOWN ON THE STREET,
r 12
13
BECAUSE HE WAS NEXT TO YOU.
A. WELL, WHEN WE GOT THERE, HE WAS NEXT TO ME.
r 14
15
Q. BUT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED IN COURT TODAY, HE WAS
IN THE STREET, ARGUING WITH THIS GIRL, WHILE THE FIGHT
r 16
17
WAS HAPPENING.
A.
IS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY?
YEAH, WHEN WE GOT THERE HE WAS WITH ME, AND
r 18 THEN HE WALKED DOWN. BUT WE WERE TOGETHER FOR A WHILE.
r 19
20
Q. BUT WHEN YOU TALKED TO THIS DEFENSE
INVESTIGATOR, HE WAS NEXT TO YOU, DRINKING WITH THE
r 21
22
UNKNOWN FEMALE, WHILE THE FIGHTING WAS HAPPENING.
IS WHAT YOU SAID, CORRECT?
THAT
r 23
24
A.
Q.
PROBABLY.
YOU SAID YOU SPOKE WITH CHUNKY THE NIGHT AFTER
r 25
26
THE SHOOTING AND TWO OR THREE DAYS LATER, CORRECT?
A. I DIDN'T SAY AFTER THE SHOOTING.
r 27 Q. "I ASKED SIRIA IF SHE SPOKE WITH CHUNKY AFTER
r 28 THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, AND SHE SAID YES, SHE SPOKE
r
2075
1
l
1 WITH HIM TWO OR THREE DAYS LATER." IS THAT YOUR
2 STATEMENT? 1
3 A. PROBABLY TWO OR THREE DAYS LATER.
4 Q. THEN, MS. FORD, WE HAD THE SECOND CONVERSATION l
5 WITH MR. JOE MALDONADO, CORRECT?
6 A. CORRECT.
~
7 Q. THAT WAS ON SEPTEMBER 15, 2010, WAS IT NOT?
8 A. MAYBE. I DON'T REMEMBER.
,
1
,
9 Q. IT WAS AFTER THIS FIRST CONVERSATION, THOUGH, )
10 WITH MR. MALDONADO, CORRECT?

11 A. RIGHT. 1
12 Q. YOU CALLED HIM, AND YOU SAID THE REASON WHY YOU
13 CALLED WAS TO TELL HIM THAT YOU HAD BEEN UNTRUTHFUL 1
14
15
DURING THAT INTERVIEW, CORRECT?
A. YES.
1
16 Q. YOU SAID YOU LIED BECAUSE YOU WERE TRYING TO
l
17 HELP JOSE, AKA CHUNKY, CORRECT?
18 A. HELP HIM ON WHAT? I DIDN'T SAY THAT. l
19 Q. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS IN THE REPORT, THAT YOU
20 WERE TRYING TO HELP CHUNKY, CORRECT? l
21 NO.
22
A.
Q. HE ASKED YOU IF YOU WANTED TO TELL HIM THE

l
23
24
TRUTH, AND YOU SAID NO. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T WANT
ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE. YOU HAD CONSULTED WITH A
l
25 FAMILY MEMBER WHO IS AN ATTORNEY, AND THIS ATTORNEY TOLD l
26 YOU THAT SHE HAD BEEN UNTRUTHFUL -- TO TELL YOU -- TELL
27 MR. MALDONADO THAT YOU HAD BEEN UNTRUTHFUL ABOUT THE l
28 EVENTS IN THE PARK, CORRECT?
l
l
r 2076
r 1 A. PROBABLY.
r 2 Q. IS THIS FAMILY MEMBER A PUBLIC DEFENDER?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT IS THIS FAMILY MEMBER'S NAME?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
MARTHA.
MARTHA WHAT?
r 7
8
A.
KNOW.
IT'S NOT A FAMILY MEMBER. IT'S JUST SOMEBODY I
r 9
10
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
WHAT IS HER NAME?
MARTHA.
r 11 THE COURT: MARTHA WHAT?
r 12
13
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW HER LAST NAME.
DON'T EVEN KNOW THE NUMBER ANYMORE.

I
r 14
15
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO AN ATTORNEY NAMED MARTHA, AFTER TALKING TO
r 16 HER, TOLD YOU TO CALL THE INVESTIGATOR AND TELL HIM YOU
r
17 WERE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT THIS REPORT
18 SAYS, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
PROBABLY.
YET YOU CAME INTO COURT AND TOLD US WHAT YOU
r 21
22
TOLD JOE MALDONADO ABOUT WHAT YOU SAW IN THE PARK; WOULD
YOU AGREE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THAT I TOLD MOLDONADO WHAT?
WELL, THE ONLY PERSON, OTHER THAN YOU TOLD IN
r 25
26
COURT, ABOUT SEEING CHUNKY ARGUING WITH A FEMALE IS JOE
MALDONADO, CORRECT?
i'
L 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. AND THEN YOU TOLD JOE MALDONADO -- CALLED JOE
r
2077
1
1 MALDONADO AND TOLD HIM THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT?
l
2 A. PROBABLY, YEAH. l
3 Q. IT WAS A LIE BECAUSE YOU WERE TRYING TO HELP
4 OUT CHUNKY, CORRECT? l
5 A. NO.
6 Q. TODAY YOU TESTIFIED YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THE
l
7
8
SHOOTING WAS, RIGHT?
A. IT WAS AT THE PARK.
l
9 Q. WHERE? 1
10 A. I DON'T KNOW. SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.
11 Q. WHERE IN THE PARK? l
12 A. PROBABLY BY THE -- I DON'T KNOW -- BY THE
13 GRASS. I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION. 1
14
15
Q. WELL, YOU TOLD A POLICE OFFICER I'M SORRY
YOU TOLD MR. MALDONADO IT WAS 60 TO 70 FEET AWAY FROM
1
16
17
YOU, YES?
A. YEAH, I TOLD HIM THAT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT
l
18 I GUESS BY THE NEXT DAY, THEN I SAW THE LITTLE PIECE OF 1
19 GRASS CUT OUT, SO THAT'S WHAT I FIGURED.
20 Q. YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU SAW A PIECE OF GRASS CUT l
21 OUT OF THE PARK?
22 A. YEAH. WELL, WHEN I PASSED BY, THAT'S WHAT I
l
23
24
THOUGHT IT WAS.
Q. WHAT TIME OF DAY DID YOU PASS BY?
l
25 A. I THINK IT WAS WHEN I WENT TO GO PICK UP MY l
26 CAR.
27 Q. IN THE MORNING? l
28 CAN YOU GET OFF THE STAND AND SHOW US WHERE
l
l
r 2078
r 1 THIS PIECE OF GRASS WAS CUT OUT OF THE PARK.
r 2 A. I THINK I SAW IT AROUND HERE. I'M NOT SURE.
r
3 Q. YOU'RE POINTING JUST TO THE LEFT OF --
4 A. YEAH, BECAUSE I WAS DRIVING THIS WAY, AND THEN
r 5
6
I SAW LIKE SOME -- IT WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE.
DON'T KNOW.
I
r 7
8
Q.
OF THEM.
WE HAVE TWO W'S, MS. FORD.
WHICH ONE?
YOU POINTED TO BOTH
r 9 A. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER. THAT WAS TWO AND A
r 10
11
HALF YEARS AGO.
Q. WAS ONE OF THEW'S ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
WHAT?
YOU SEE TWO W'S WRITTEN ON THERE IN BLACK INK,
r 14
15
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q. WAS IT ONE OF THE W'S? I'M NOT SAYING A W WAS
CUT OUT OF THE GRASS, BUT IS IT IN THE LOCATION WHERE
r 18 THE W IS WRITTEN?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
PROBABLY.
WHICH ONE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
BUT ONE OF THEM?
I'M NOT SURE.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
PLEASE HAVE A SEAT.
r 25
26
SO THAT'S WHERE YOUR KNOWLEDGE CAME FROM OF
WHERE THE SHOOTING HAPPENED, BECAUSE A CHUNK OF GRASS
i 27 WAS CUT OUT OF THE PARK, YES?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2079
,
l
1 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE SHAPE THIS CHUNK WAS CUT
2 OUT IN? 1
3 A. NO, NOT REALLY. IT WAS -- I THOUGHT IT WAS
4 LIKE THE SHAPE OF A BODY. I DON'T KNOW. l
5 Q. LIKE YOU SEE ON TV, LIKE A CHALK OUTLINE KIND
6 OF THING?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
UH-HUH.
SO A CHUNK OF GRASS WAS REMOVED IN THE SHAPE OF
l
1
9
10
11
A BODY?
A.
Q.
THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT I SAW, YEAH.
WHICH JUST MAY BE IN ONE OF THE LOCATIONS
,
12 WRITTEN ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 2.
13 A. YEAH. 1
14
15
Q. IF THERE WAS NO CHUNK OF GRASS CUT OUT YET YOU
POINTED TO ONE OF THE LOCATIONS WHERE THE VICTIM WAS
1
16 FOUND, THAT WOULD INDICATE YOU SAW THE SHOOTING,
1
17 CORRECT, MS. FORD?
18 A. NO. I PASSED BY AND I SAW THE CUT, THE PIECE 1
19 OF GRASS. THAT'S HOW I -- THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT, THAT
20 THAT'S WHERE IT HAPPENED. l
21 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO GIVE AN ESTIMATE BASED ON A
l
22
23
24
CUT OF GRASS THAT HAS NOT BEEN DESCRIBED BY ANYBODY,
CORRECT?
,
25 SPECULATION. l
27 BY MR. TROCHA: 1
28 Q. IF THE POLICE TOOK A CHUNK OF GRASS, DO YOU
l
l
r 2080
r 1 THINK IT WOULD BE SOMEWHERE?
3 SPECULATION.
r
l 4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. IF THERE WAS NO CHUNK OF GRASS, MS. FORD, HOW
r 7
8
ELSE WOULD YOU HAVE GAINED THAT INFORMATION OF WHERE THE
SHOOTING TOOK PLACE?
r 9
10
A. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, IF THERE WAS NO PIECE OF
GRASS, I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM WHERE

r 11 WHATEVER I SAID.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
UNLESS YOU SAW THE SHOOTING, CORRECT?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 14
15
Q. THE REASON YOU'RE SCARED ISN'T ANYTHING TO DO
WITH YOUR KIDS, IS IT, MS. FORD?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I'M SCARED OF EVERYTHING.
ARE YOU SCARED OF THE PERSON WHO DID THIS
r 18 COMING AFTER YOU IF YOU WERE TO TELL THE JURY WHO
19 ACTUALLY DID IT?

r 20 A. I DON'T KNOW WHO DID IT.
r
~
21 Q. HOW COULD YOU NOT? YOU GAVE THAT PERSON A RIDE
22 TO THE PARK, MS. FORD.
~ 23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
[.
r. 25
26 HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR
r 28 REDIRECT?
r
2081
1
l
2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 1
4 Q. MS. FORD, IT'S FAIR TO SAY YOU DO NOT WANT TO l
5 BE INVOLVED IN THIS CASE, RIGHT?
6 A. RIGHT.
1
7
8
Q. FROM THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE ASKED, YOU TOOK
AFFIRMATIVE STEPS TO NOT HAVE TO BE WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT
l
9 NOW, RIGHT? l
10 A. RIGHT.
11 Q. PART OF THOSE STEPS IS TELLING THE POLICE YOU 1
12 WEREN'T THERE, RIGHT?
13 A. RIGHT. 1
14
15
Q. SOME OF THOSE STEPS IS HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE
TELL THE POLICE YOU WEREN'T THERE.
1
16 A.
Q.
YES.
TELLING MR. MALDONADO THAT YOU WEREN'T THERE,
l
17
18 RIGHT?
l.
19 A. RIGHT.
l
20
21
22
Q.
RIGHT?
A.
YOU TOLD A LOT OF PEOPLE YOU WEREN'T THERE,
RIGHT.
,~
23 Q. BUT YOU WERE THERE. THAT'S THE TRUTH, RIGHT? ~

.J
24 A. RIGHT.
25 Q. MS. FORD, WHEN YOU SAT DOWN WITH MYSELF AND JOE 1
26 MALDONADO IN THE JACK IN THE BOX AND YOU FINALLY TOLD
27 THE TRUTH AS YOU STATED TODAY, HAD WE GIVEN YOU A l
28 SUBPOENA BEFORE YOU TOLD US?
l
l
r 2082
r 1 A. I THINK SO, YEAH.
r 2 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER IT CORRECTLY?
r 3
4
A. OH, NO, NO, NO.
THERE AT THE JACK IN THE BOX.

I THINK I GOT SUBPOENAED RIGHT
r 5
6
Q. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO US, DID YOU THINK THAT
WE WOULD ASK YOU TO COME TO COURT AT THAT MOMENT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I'M NOT SURE.
PERHAPS?
YEAH.
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU GOT SUBPOENAED AFTER YOU GAVE THE

r 11 INFORMATION, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU GOT SUBPOENAED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
UPSET.
WHY WERE YOU SO UPSET?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE.
BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED, RIGHT?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, WHERE YOU GREW UP, WHAT
IS IT -- HOW DO YOUR FRIENDS LOOK AT COMING TO COURT AND
r 21
22
TESTIFYING?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T HAVE FRIENDS.
r 23 Q. YOU USED TO HAVE FRIENDS WHEN YOU WERE A KID,
r
24 RIGHT?
25 A. YEAH, BUT WE DIDN'T THINK THAT WAY WHEN I WAS
r 26
27
WITH MY FRIENDS.
Q. ISN'T IT LOOKED DOWN UPON TO COME TO COURT FOR
r 28 ANY REASON?
r
2083
1
1 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. LEADING.
l
2 THE COURT: TECHNICALLY CORRECT. OVERRULED, l
3 HOWEVER. YOU MAY ANSWER.
4 THE WITNESS: CAN YOU SAY IT AGAIN? l
6 Q. ISN'T IT LOOKED DOWN UPON TO COME TO COURT FOR
l
l
,
7 ANY REASON, MS. FORD?
8 A. I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE.
9 Q. AGAIN, WHEN YOU WERE TELLING THE POLICE AND
10 MR. MALDONADO THAT YOU WEREN'T THERE, WHAT WERE YOU
11
12
TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY TELLING PEOPLE THOSE THINGS?
A. NOTHING. ,
l
13
14
15
Q. WAS IT YOU WERE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH NOT HAVING
TO SIT WHERE YOU'RE SITTING RIGHT NOW?
A. YES.
, J
16
17
Q.
A.
AND. YOU ARE FORCED TO BE HERE, RIGHT?
YEAH.
1
l
18
19
Q. WHEN YOU SAID THOSE THINGS TO THE DETECTIVES
AND TO JOE MALDONADO AND ADRIANA ALVAREZ, DID YOU TAKE
,
20
21
22
AN OATH TO TELL THE TRUTH DURING THOSE TIMES?
A.
Q.
NO, I DIDN'T.
LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED IN A PRIOR HEARING ON
, J
23
24
THIS CASE, RIGHT?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. YOU TOOK AN OATH THAT TIME, RIGHT? 1
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. AND THIS TIME, WHEN YOU JUST CAME IN NOW, YOU l
28 TOOK AN OATH, RIGHT?
1
l
r 2084
r 1 A. RIGHT.
r 2 Q. AND WHAT WAS THAT OATH, TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING?
r 3 A. TO TELL THE TRUTH.
4 Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE PROMISING TO DO WHEN YOU
r 5
6
CAME IN HERE?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
IS TELLING THE TRUTH IMPORTANT TO YOU?
YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHY?
BECAUSE I COULD BE IN TROUBLE IF I DON'T.

r 11 Q. MS. FORD-- CAN I SEE PEOPLE'S 50, COUNSEL?
r 12
13
MR. TROCHA:
JUST ONE SECOND.
r 14
15
Q. ON CROSS-EXAMINATION YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
WHETHER YOU SAW MS. BANUELOS AND MR. DOMINGUEZ HANGING
r 16
17
OUT WITH YOU UP THE ALLEY OR WHETHER YOU SAW THEM DOWN
THE ALLEY. DO YOU REMEMBER BEING ASKED THOSE QUESTIONS?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q. YOU WERE HANGING OUT AT THE PARK WITH
MS. BANUELOS, CHRISTIAN AND JOSE, FOR, WHAT, ABOUT 45
r 21
22
MINUTES?
A. YEAH, MAYBE.
r 23 Q. AND IT WASN'T JUST STANDING IN THE SAME PLACE
r 24
25
THE WHOLE TIME, WAS IT?
A. WELL, THEY WERE DOWN THE ALLEY.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
FOR MOST OF THE TIME THAT YOU REMEMBER?
YES.
r 28 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, COULD THEY HAVE COME UP THE
"!
2085
l
1 ALLEY OR GONE BACK DOWN? IS THAT POSSIBLE?
l
3 Q. THIS HAPPENED TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO, RIGHT?
4 A. RIGHT. l
5 Q. DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC TIMELINE OF EVENTS WHERE
6 YOU CAN PLACE WHERE THE PEOPLE WHO YOU WERE HANGING OUT
l
7
8
WITH WERE AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT FROM THE TIME YOU GOT
THERE TO THE TIME THE GUNSHOTS WENT OFF?
l
9 A. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. l
10 Q. WHAT YOU WERE TELLING US ON DIRECT WAS THE BEST
11 YOU COULD POSSIBLY RECOLLECT, WAS IT NOT? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TOLD US THAT THE CAR WAS l
14
15
PARKED TO THE RIGHT OF THE ALLEY ON PROSECUTION 2,
RIGHT?
l
16
17
A. YEAH, WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER.
BEEN LIKE TWO AND A HALF YEARS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S
l
18 Q. MR. TROCHA SHOWED YOU SOME EXHIBITS THAT SHOWED l
19 YOU THE CAR WAS PARKED ACTUALLY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
20 ALLEY, RIGHT? l
21 A. RIGHT.
22 Q. SO IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU SAW THE CAR PULL
l
23
24
UP, BUT YOU FORGOT EXACTLY WHERE IT PARKED, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
l
25 Q. AND WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING OR WHEN YOU SAW AN ~1
26 ARGUMENT GOING ON BETWEEN MR. DOMINGUEZ AND
27 MS. BANUELOS, YOU DIDN'T SEE THE CAR, RIGHT? l
28 A. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST SAW THEM.
l
r 2086
r 1 Q. AND YOU DIDN'T REMEMBER SEEING THE CAR ON THIS
r 2
3
SIDE, INDICATING TO THE RIGHT OF THE ALLEY ON EXHIBIT
50
r 4 A. NO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
-- YOU JUST SAW THEM.
YEAH.
r 7
8
Q. AND THEY WERE STANDING WHERE THE STREET MEETS
THE ALLEY, RIGHT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
THEY WEREN'T STANDING TO THE RIGHT OF WHERE THE
r 11 STREET MEETS THE ALLEY, RIGHT, FROM YOUR VIEW?
r 12
13
MR. TROCHA:
HER TESTIMONY.
OBJECTION. LEADING AND MISSTATES
r 14
15
THE COURT: IT IS IMPERMISSIBLY LEADING.
NONLEADING QUESTIONS, PLEASE. SUSTAINED.
ASK
r 16
17 HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR
r 19
20
Q. FROM THIS VIEW, EXHIBIT 50, WHERE WERE THEY
STANDING, TO YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION?
r 21
22
A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY WERE STANDING.
JUST ABLE TO SEE THEM.
I WAS
r 23
24
Q.
A.
SOMEWHERE ON THE ALLEY?
THE ALLEY.
r 25 Q. WHEN YOU WERE RUNNING AWAY, MS. BANUELOS (SIC),
r 26
27
YOU WERE ASKED WHETHER OR NOT YOU WERE RUNNING AWAY FROM
THE POLICE. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT, BY MR. TROCHA?
r 28 A. WHEN I WHAT?
l
2087
l
1
2
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ON CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. TROCHA
ASKED YOU IF, WHEN YOU WERE RUNNING AWAY, YOU WERE
,
l
J
3 RUNNING FROM THE POLICE, RIGHT?

4 A. YEAH. l
5 Q. THAT'S NOT ALL YOU WERE RUNNING FROM THOUGH,
6 RIGHT?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YOU RAN WHEN YOU HEARD GUNSHOTS.
l
l
9
10
11
12
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
YOU DIDN'T RUN WHEN YOU SAW THE POLICE, RIGHT?
RIGHT.
IT WAS THE GUNSHOTS THAT CAUSED YOU TO RUN.
,
1
13
14
15
A.
Q.
A.
RIGHT.
SO WAS IT FAIR TO SAY YOU WERE SCARED?
OF COURSE.
,
l
,
16 Q. WHY WOULD GUNSHOTS SCARE YOU?
17 A. BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO GET SHOT AT.
~
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN MR. DOMINGUEZ GOT ARRESTED?

19 A. NO.
1
20
21
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW APPROXIMATELY WHEN?
ABOUT A YEAR AGO. ,
22
23
24
Q. SINCE MR. DOMINGUEZ GOT ARRESTED ABOUT A YEAR
AGO, HAVE YOU TALKED TO HIM SINCE THEN?
A. NO.
,
25
26
Q.
THAT?
HAVE YOU GONE IN TO VISIT HIM OR ANYTHING LIKE 1
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. SO YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM IN OVER A YEAR?
l
l
r 2088
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING.
r 3
4
THE COURT:
CROSS-EXAMINATION?
THANK YOU. FURTHER
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA: A LITTLE BIT.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
r 7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. CAN WE SEE ANY CARS ON THE STREET IN PEOPLE'S
r 9
10
EXHIBIT 50, MS. FORD?
A. PROBABLY THE SHADOW.
r 11 Q. EXCUSE ME?
r 12
13 CAR.
A. I SEE LIKE A SHADOW. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A
r 14
15
Q. IT'S SAFE TO SAY AS WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS
PHOTOGRAPH, WE CAN'T SEE A GREENISH-BLUE CAR, THE RED
r 16
17
EL CAMINO OR THE GRAY CAMRY, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 18 Q. YOU JUST TESTIFIED THAT THE REASON YOU RAN WAS
r 19
20
BECAUSE YOU WERE SCARED OF THE GUNSHOTS, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q. EXCEPT YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU RAN THIS WAY
TOWARDS OCEAN VIEW AND 40TH, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WOULDN'T THAT BE RUNNING TOWARDS THE GUNSHOTS?
r 25
26 FROM.
A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE GUNSHOTS WERE COMING
I JUST RAN.
r 27 Q. WELL, WE JUST HEARD THAT YOU DIDN'T WANT TO
r 28 STICK AROUND BECAUSE YOU MIGHT BE SHOT, RIGHT?
r
~
~
2089
1
1
2
A. WELL, YEAH. IF YOU HEAR GUNSHOTS, YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO JUST STAND RIGHT THERE, RIGHT?
, J
3 Q. ARE YOU GOING TO RUN TOWARDS THEM?
~
4 A. HOW WOULD I KNOW WHERE THE GUNSHOTS ARE COMING J

5 FROM?
6 Q. BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE AND SAW THE SHOOTING,
1
7
8
MS. FORD.
A. I DIDN'T SEE NO SHOOTING.
l
9
10
11
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
YOUR ANSWER WAS YOU DID NOT SEE IT?
ARGUMENTATIVE
THE ANSWER WILL STAND.
,
l
~
12 THE WITNESS: RIGHT.

l
13
14
15
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. THE REASON YOU RAN IN A DIRECTION THAT WOULD BE
TOWARDS THE GUNSHOTS WAS BECAUSE YOU SAW MR. DOMINGUEZ,
,
16 WHO HAD DONE THE SHOOTING, HAD ALREADY RUN THE OPPOSITE
DIRECTION, CORRECT?
l
17
18 A. NO, I DIDN'T SEE NOBODY DO THE SHOOTING. 1
19 Q. SO YOU JUST HAPPENED TO RUN IN THE SAME
20 DIRECTION THE GUNSHOTS CAME FROM. l
21 A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE GUNSHOTS CAME FROM. I
22 JUST HEARD GUNSHOTS.
l
23
24
Q. WE ALSO HEARD THAT TELLING THE TRUTH IS VERY
SERIOUS TO YOU; IS THAT CORRECT, MS. FORD?
l
25 A. CORRECT. 1
26 Q. HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN SIX DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF
27 THE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, ACCORDING TO YOU? l
l
l
r 2090
r 1 TESTIMONY OF THE WITNESS, SIX.
r 2 THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION, PLEASE, WITH
r 3
4
THE DIFFERENT VERSIONS.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r
I_
5
6
Q. YOU LIED TO THE POLICE WHEN YOU FIRST TALKED TO
THEM, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU LIED TO THE POLICE THE SECOND TIME YOU
r 9
10
TALKED TO THEM, CORRECT?
A. RIGHT.
r 11 Q. YOU LIED TO THE POLICE THE THIRD TIME YOU
r 12
13
TALKED TO THEM, CORRECT?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER HOW MANY TIMES IT WAS.
r 14
15
Q. YOU LIED TO POLICE WHEN DETECTIVE GASCA CAME TO
TALK TO YOU, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A. I TOLD HER I DIDN'T WANT TO TALK TO HER.
DIDN'T TELL HER ANYTHING ELSE.
I
r 18 Q. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE
r 19
20
SHOOTING, RIGHT?
A. BECAUSE I WASN'T GOING TO TALK TO HER, THAT'S
r 21
22
WHY.
Q. THEN YOU TOLD INVESTIGATOR MALDONADO A
r 23
24
DIFFERENT VERSION, CORRECT?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
r 25
26
Q.
CORRECT?
AND THEN YOU TOLD US TODAY A SIXTH VERSION,
r 27 A. WHAT SIXTH VERSION? I SAID THE SAME THING THAT
r 28 I SAID LAST TIME.
r
2091
l
1 Q. WELL, LAST TIME YOU SAID TO JOE MALDONADO IT
l
2 WAS AN UNKNOWN FEMALE, RIGHT? I MEAN, WE HEARD THE l
3 STATEMENT, MS. FORD, CORRECT?
l
4
6
A.
Q.
I GUESS.
SO THAT'S SIX DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF ONE EVENT,
ALL BY YOU, CORRECT?
,
J
8 MISSTATES --
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. STILL
l
9 THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE JURY WILL DECIDE. l
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. WHEN DID THE TRUTH BECOME IMPORTANT, MS. FORD? l
12 A. WHEN WHAT?
13 Q. WHEN DID THE TRUTH SUDDENLY BECOME IMPORTANT TO l
14
15
YOU?
A. WHEN I HEARD THAT HE WAS BEING ACCUSED OF
1
16 SOMETHING THAT HE DIDN'T DO.
l
17 Q. THAT WAS OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, CORRECT?
18 A. CORRECT. 1
19 Q. SO IT TOOK YOU A YEAR AND A HALF NOW TO COME IN
20 AND COME CLEAN? l
21 A. NO. I THINK I CAME LAST TIME TO COURT TOO.
22 Q. YEAH, BUT BETWEEN THAT TIME YOU ALSO TOLD
1
23
24
MR. MALDONADO ONE OF THOSE DIFFERENT VERSIONS, RIGHT?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
1
25 Q. AND THEN YOU TOLD MR. MALDONADO YOU MADE 1
26 EVERYTHING UP, RIGHT?
27 A. RIGHT.
28 Q. AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT AN OATH IS
F
I
2092
1 NOW THE REASON WHY YOU'RE NOW TELLING THE TRUTH,
2 CORRECT?
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. AND THE REASON WHY YOU LIED BEFORE WAS BECAUSE
5 YOUR KIDS WERE WAY TOO IMPORTANT TO TELL THE POLICE THE
6 TRUTH.
7 A. WELL, I WAS SCARED.
8 Q. BECAUSE OF YOUR KIDS, CORRECT?
9 A. BECAUSE OF EVERYTHING.
10 Q. DID THIS OATH MAKE YOU NO LONGER SCARED?
11 A. I'M STILL SCARED.
rm
I
14 FURTHER DIRECT?
r 18 Q. FIRST, MS. BANUELOS
r 19
20
A.
Q.
FORD.
EXCUSE ME. I APOLOGIZE, MS. FORD.
r 21
22
HYPOTHETICALLY, IF THE SHOOTING HAPPENED
SOMEWHERE AROUND WHERE THIS RED CIRCLE IS AND YOU RAN
r 23
24
FROM YOUR CAR TO OCEAN VIEW, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN RUNNING
AWAY FROM THE SHOOTING, CORRECT?
r 25 A.
Q.
CORRECT.
NOT TOWARDS IT, RIGHT?
26
iL 27 A. WELL, I WAS JUST RUNNING.
28 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT MS. BANUELOS.

20
1 YOU KNOW WHO SHE IS NOW, DON'T YOU?

2 A. YES .
3 Q. YOU MET HER BECAUSE YOU ' VE BOTH BEEN INVOLVED
4 IN THIS CASE, RIGHT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. I MEAN, YOU HAD MET HER PRIOR TO BEING INVOLVED
7 IN THE CASE , RIGHT?
8 A. RIGHT.
9 Q. BUT HOW HAVE YOU GOTTEN TO KNOW HER SINCE THIS
10 CASE HAS BEEN GOING ON?
11 A. WELL , I RUN INTO HER IN COURT.
12 Q. YOU ' VE TALKED TO HER IN COURT -- I MEAN ,
13 OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM?
14 A. YES .
15 Q. BECAUSE YOU BOTH HAVE BEEN SUBPOENAED IN THE
16 PAST TO COME THE SAME DAY?
17 A. YES .
18 Q. AT THE TIME YOU TALKED TO MALDONADO ON JULY
19 1ST, DI D YOU KNOW HER THAT WELL?
20 A. NOT THAT WELL .
21 Q. HOW WELL DID YOU KNOW HER?
22 A. WELL, LIKE I SAID , I USED TO SEE HER WHEN SHE
23 WAS WITH HIM.
24 Q. DID YOU KNOW HER NAME AT THAT TIME?
25 A. PROBABLY. I DON ' T KNOW.
26 Q. YOU MAY HAVE?
27 A. YEAH .
28 Q. COULD YOU NOT HAVE?
~
I
2094
F
1 A. I DON'T KNOW.
~
I
2 Q. WHEN YOU TALKED TO JOE MALDONADO, YOU TOLD HIM
3 THAT SAME THING YOU SAID IN COURT TODAY ON JULY 1ST,
~
4 THAT WHEN THE SHOOTING WENT OFF, YOU SAW JOSE DOWN AT
~ 5 THE BOTTOM OF THE ALLEY, RIGHT? THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD

l
6 HIM.
~
i
i
7 A. RIGHT.
~
i 9 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA?
r 10
11
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
NO, THANK YOU.
MAY MS. FORD BE EXCUSED?
il
13 MR. TROCHA: YES.
r 14
15 COURT.
THE COURT: MS. FORD, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO
YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE.
rI 16 PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY OR THE
L
r
17 QUESTIONS YOU WERE ASKED WITH ANY OF THE OTHER
18 WITNESSES, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS OR THE LAWYERS, UNTIL
19 THE TRIAL IS OVER. OKAY?
r 20 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
GOOD DAY TO YOU.
CAN I STAY HERE, OR NO?
r 23
24
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM.
OH.
r 25 THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO CALL YOUR NEXT

26 WITNESS OR DO THAT AFTER LUNCH?
r 27 JUROR NO. 9: MAY WE HAVE A BREAK, YOUR HONOR?
r 28 THE COURT: LET'S TAKE THE NOON RECESS.
l
r
2095
1 SHALL WE CONDUCT THE VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION NOW?

2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. OR IF YOU WANT -- CAN
3 I TALK TO YOU SIDEBAR FOR A MOMENT?
4 THE COURT: STAND BY, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
6 THE COURT: ADDRESSING THE JURORS, THANK YOU
7 FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION TO THIS CASE.
8 IT HAS BEEN A LONG AND ARDUOUS MORNING. PLEASE LEAVE
9 THE PENS AND NOTEBOOKS ON THE CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER
10 THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR
11 WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON ANY SUBJECT CONNECTED WITH THIS
12 TRIAL, OR TO FORM OR EXPRESS ANY OPINION ON IT UNTIL THE
13 CAUSE IS FINALLY SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION.
14 I'M GOING TO EXCUSE THE JURORS AND ASK
15 MS. ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2 TO STAND BY FOR JUST ONE
~
16 MOMENT, PLEASE, SO WE CAN SPEAK WITH YOU. l
J
17 ENJOY YOUR LUNCH. LET'S PLAN ON RECONVENING AT

!
18 1:30 THIS AFTERNOON. I

20 COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY; ALTERNATE JUROR
21 NO. 2 REMAINED IN THE COURTROOM:)
23 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM. I WILL
24 ASK THAT THE DEFENDANT'S FAMILY MEMBERS LEAVE THE
25 COURTROOM AS WELL. OUR HONORED GUESTS, OF COURSE, MAY
26 REMAIN OR LEAVE, AS YOU WISH.
27 MS. ALTERNATE IN SEAT 2, I NEED TO ASK YOU SOME l
28 QUESTIONS ABOUT A REMARK THAT WAS BROUGHT TO OUR
l
l
r
Il
2096
r
I
I
1 ATTENTION FROM ONE OF THE COURT BAILIFFS. WHEN THIS

2 CASE BEGAN, DURING THE JURY SELECTION PROCESS I THINK WE
3 DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT THERE ARE SOME CASES WHERE
4 FRANKLY THE JURORS' SAFETY COULD BE AT RISK.
F 5 THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE CASES. WHEN WE DO

(
6 HAVE THOSE CASES, WE, OF COURSE, TAKE STEPS TO PROTECT
7 THE JURORS' SAFETY. I EMPHASIZED THAT BECAUSE I DON'T
8 WANT JURORS TO FEEL PRESSURED TO REACH ANY KIND OF
9 DECISION ONE WAY OR BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT THEIR
r 10
11
SAFETY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: YES.
12 THE COURT: IT WAS REPORTED TO US THAT YOU WERE
r 13 CONCERNED AND EXPRESSED CONCERN TO ONE OF THE BAILIFFS
r 14
15
ABOUT SOME PEOPLE WHO APPEARED TO BE GANG MEMBERS
LEAVING THE SAME PLACE OR THE SAME LOCATION THAT YOU
r 16
17
WERE LEAVING.
DID SUCH A CONVERSATION OCCUR?
r 18 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: YES. I SPOKE -- WELL,
r 19
20
ON THE WAY TO THE BRIDGE, I SPOKE TO ONE JUST -- WHEN I
FIRST EXITED THE COURTROOM YESTERDAY -- WELL, ACTUALLY,
r 21
22
YESTERDAY AT LUNCH, BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL OUT THERE -- I
MEAN, THERE WAS TWO SEPARATE GROUPS.
r 23
24
THERE WAS THE FAMILY AND THEN THE SO-CALLED
YOUNGSTERS WERE ALL IN ONE SECTION, AND THEN WHEN I
r 25
26
CAME -- WHEN WE CAME BACK -- WHEN WE WERE LEAVING
SORRY -- THEN AS SOON AS I TURNED THE CURVE, THERE WAS
I'M
r 27 AT LEAST FIVE OF THEM THERE ON THE BENCH, THE LITTLE

28 ONES, THE YOUNGSTERS.
r
r
2097
1 AND THEN ONE OF THEM -- I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER

2 WHAT IT WAS, BUT RIGHT -- AND I COULD BE OVERREACTING,
3 BUT RIGHT AS SOON AS I WAS IN FRONT OF HIM, HE SAID ONE
4 WORD, AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT WAS, BECAUSE I KEPT
5 TRYING TO GO OVER IT IN MY MIND, BUT IT WAS -- COULD
6 HAVE WITHIN A COINCIDENCE THAT WHEN I WAS JUST FEET AWAY
7 FROM HIM THAT ONE OF THEM MADE A COMMENT TO THE OTHERS.
8 AND THEN AS I WAS WALKING, I WAS LIKE -- I

9 WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY WEREN'T GOING TO COME DOWN
10 THAT BRIDGE, BECAUSE I GO OVER TO -- I FEEL BETTER ON
11 THE OPPOSITE SIDE.
12 SO THEN I WALKED -- I SAID SOMETHING TO THE
13
14
DEPUTY LIKE, "JUST MAKE SURE THEY DON'T COME TO THE
BRIDGE." AND HE SAID, "WHO?" AND I SAID, "THE PEOPLE ., I
!
15 THAT WERE OUTSIDE THAT COURTROOM."

16 AND THEN I NOTICED THINGS IN COURT. LIKE I SAW 'i
!
17 THE ONE LADY -- EVERY WITNESS THAT THE DEFENDANT'S

'i
18 WITNESSES THAT WERE IN THAT SEAT, EVERY TIME THEY LEFT, I
19 WHEN THEY WERE UP ON THE STAND AND THEN EVERY TIME THEY
20 LEFT, I SAW THAT OLDER LADY LIKE SMILING, SMIRKING AT
21 THEM, AND THEY WERE EXCHANGING, LIKE, "YEAH."
22
23
24
AND THEN THEY WERE PARKING -- THE SISTERS WERE
PARKING IN THAT AREA, SO I WAITED EVERY DAY FOR THEM TO
LEAVE -- LIKE LEAVE FIRST. I WAS WATCHING FROM THE
,
25 BRIDGE AND WAITING FOR THEM TO LEAVE. AND THEN LAST
I
J
26 NIGHT I JUST FIGURED, "YOU KNOW WHAT? I'M GOING TO GET

27 A RIDE." l
28 SO I TALKED TO ONE OF THE OTHER JURORS THAT
l
l
i
!.
2098
1 LIVES IN MY AREA, AND SHE WAS LIKE, "YEAH, WE CAN

2 CARPOOL TOGETHER." AND IT KILLS TWO BIRDS WITH ONE
3 STONE, WE BOTH SAVE MONEY, WE SAVE GAS, WE CAN DRIVE IN
4 THE CAR, AND I FEEL BETTER.
r 5
6
SO SHE IS LETTING ME OFF IN FRONT OF THE
BUILDING, BUT I HAD ASKED -- WHEN I GOT DOWNSTAIRS AND I
f"li1J
I
7 WAS LEAVING THE DOWNSTAIRS IN THE OTHER BUILDING, I DID
8 ASK THE DEPUTY, "CAN WE HAVE" -- JUST DURING THE
rm
I
9 RECESSES, IF THE DEFENDANT'S WITNESSES ARE IN A CROWD
10 OUTSIDE AND THE OTHER ONES ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE AND
r 11 WE'RE ALL IN THE MIDDLE, THAT WE COULD HAVE A DEPUTY
r 12
13
THAT MONITORS THE HALLWAY OUT THERE DURING THE RECESS.
BUT NOT FOR THE LUNCH OR ANYTHING, JUST LIKE 5
r 14
15
MINUTES BEFORE, 10 MINUTES BEFORE WE COME BACK INTO THE
COURTROOM. BUT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN, I MEAN,
r 16
17
OVERREACTING TOO.
THE COURT: I SO APPRECIATE YOUR CANDOR. IT'S
r 18 IMPORTANT THAT YOU TALK TO ME JUST THE WAY YOU'VE TALKED
r 19
20
TO ME. LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE WORD THAT WAS SAID AS YOU
r 21
22
WERE WALKING BY?
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: I DON'T. IT WAS ONE
r 23
24
WORD, ONE SYLLABLE. AND JUST COMING OUT OF THE
COURTROOM, AND THEY WERE ALL LOOKING AT ME AT THAT TIME,
r 25 AND --
r 26
27
THE COURT: DID IT SOUND AS IF THE WORD WAS
SAID IN ENGLISH OR SPANISH?
r 28 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I
r
2099
1 JUST DON'T REMEMBER, BECAUSE HONESTLY ~- AND I'VE GONE

2 OVER IN MY MIND LIKE, "WHAT DID HE SAY?"
3 THE COURT: WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE TONE
4 OF THE VOICE THAT YOU FOUND REMARKABLE.
5 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: WELL, IT WAS A LITTLE
6 LOUDER THAN -- I MEAN IF HE WAS TALKING TO THE FRIENDS,
7 IT SEEMED A LITTLE BIT LOUDER. BUT I WAS JUST ALSO FEET
8 AWAY FROM HIM WHEN I CROSSED BY, SO IT COULD HAVE JUST
9 BEEN ME AND MY --
10 THE COURT: NO, NO, THAT'S FINE. LET ME SHIFT
11 GEARS FROM WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT YOU SAW AND WHAT YOU
"""i '
12 DID, TO ANOTHER SUBJECT.

13 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE EXPECT IS THAT YOU 1
14 WILL BE FAIR AND IMPARTIAL IN YOUR DELIBERATIONS. "'9
I
j
15 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.

16 THE COURT: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?
17 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: RIGHT.
18 THE COURT: THIS MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO
19 EVALUATE THE EVIDENCE ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT I WILL ~
I
!
20
21
GIVE YOU AT THE END OF THE TRIAL.
THIS?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND
, I
22
23
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2:
THE COURT:
YES.
CERTAINLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
, J
I
!
24 WOULD NOT BE APPROPRIATE IS IF YOU WERE INFLUENCED BY

25 FEAR OR CONCERNS FOR YOUR PERSONAL SAFETY. 1 I
26 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: I'M NOT INFLUENCED BY

27 IT. THAT'S WHY I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT NOBODY l j
28 WAS GOING TO START ANY ARGUMENTS OUTSIDE THE HALLWAY OR

l
,
r 2100
r
l
1 ANYTHING.
r
l 2 THE COURT: WELL, THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT
3 QUESTION. DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU CAN BE FAIR AND
r
4 IMPARTIAL?
5 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: ABSOLUTELY, SIR.
il
6 THE COURT: DO YOU THINK THAT THIS EXPERIENCE
r 7
8
IS GOING TO MAKE YOU, FRANKLY, WANT TO FAVOR THE
PROSECUTION AND BE AGAINST THE DEFENSE?
i 9 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: OH, NO, NOT AT ALL. I

10 MEAN, I TAKE IT FROM BOTH SIDES. AND THAT'S JUST MY OWN
r
\ 11 PREFERENCE, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT I GET A RIDE FROM HER.
12 AND IT IS TO -- WE'RE SAVING MONEY TOGETHER, SO IT'S A
r 13 GOOD THING.
r 14
15
THE COURT: AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND IN ANY EVENT
THAT EVEN IF SOMETHING IMPROPER OCCURRED, THERE IS NO
r 16
17
NECESSARY CONNECTION WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ?
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: ABSOLUTELY, YES. HE'S
r 18 HERE AND HE'S NOT TALKING TO THEM. THEY'RE OUT THERE.
r 19
20 IMPARTIAL?
THE COURT: BOTTOM LINE, CAN YOU BE FAIR AND
r 21
22
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2:
THE COURT:
ABSOLUTELY, SIR.
MA'AM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
r 23
24
DISCUSSING THIS WITH ME. I WILL SPEAK WITH COUNSEL AND
WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU BACK HERE WITH THE OTHER JURORS AT
r 25
26
1:30 THIS AFTERNOON.
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: BUT I HAVE A QUESTION
r 27 NOW.
r
2101
I
l
1 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: WOULD I BE ABLE TO GET
2
3
4
ANOTHER ONE OF THESE?
LEFT.
THE COURT:
I ONLY HAVE ONE AND A HALF PAGES
ABSOLUTELY. I SHOULD MAKE THAT

, i
5 ANNOUNCEMENT. IN FACT, I'LL ASK THE COURT CLERK TO ~

!
6 REMIND ME TO TELL THAT TO ALL THE JURORS. AND IF I
7 DON'T, WILL YOU REMIND ME? l
8 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: I WILL. THANK YOU,
9
10
SIR. I APPRECIATE IT.
THE COURT: ENJOY YOUR LUNCH, MA'AM, AND THANK
,
11
12
13
YOU.
ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: THANK YOU.
{ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2 LEAVES THE COURTROOM.)
, j
14 THE COURT: OKAY. ANY COUNSEL WISH TO MAKE ANY

15
16
STATEMENT?
MR. TROCHA: NONE, YOUR HONOR.
, J
17 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A

18
19
20
MOTION TO EXCUSE THE JUROR. I'M NOT SURE WHO THE DEPUTY
IS THAT REPORTED, BUT SHE SAID QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
GANG-BANGER WITNESSES, AND THEN SHE REPORTED TO SEE WHAT
, J
21 SHE THOUGHT WAS WINKING OR SOME KIND OF CONSPIRACY

22 THEORY BETWEEN ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE DEFENDANT'S
l
23
24
FAMILY AND THE WITNESSES.
WHAT I SUSPECT IS GOING ON -- MR. DOMINGUEZ'
l
25 MOM, WHO YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN IN COURT, IS A SWEET OLDER l
26 WOMAN, AND SHE IS VERY FRIENDLY AND SHE SMILES A LOT AT
27 EVERYBODY: AT JURORS PROBABLY AND WITNESSES, AND YOU, l
28 TOO, YOUR HONOR; IF YOU MET HER OUTSIDE OF COURT, SHE
l
, 1
r 2102
il
1 WOULD PROBABLY SMILE AT YOU TOO.
r
\ 2 SO IF SHE'S PERCEIVING THAT AS SOME KIND OF --
3 I UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE JUROR SAID AS SHE SAW THE FAMILY

F
I
1
4 MEMBER WINK, WINK TO THE GANG-BANGER WITNESSES. I THINK
r 5
6
THERE IS AN ISSUE.
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, DO YOU WISH TO RESPOND?
r
!
7 MR. TROCHA: THE PROBLEM IS THAT SOME OF THOSE
8 WITNESSES ARE, IN FACT, GANG-BANGER WITNESSES. SO IF
i
I
9 IT'S ALSO THE DEFENSE WITNESSES AND FAMILY THAT ARE
10 CAUSING JURORS TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE ONLY PLACE
r
I 11 THEY CAN BE IN THE COURTROOM, IT SEEMS INAPPROPRIATE
r 12
13
THAT THEY CAN THEN BENEFIT BY DISMISSING JURORS IN THE
PROCESS.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, I'M SLIGHTLY
OFFENDED THAT THE PROSECUTOR HAS JUST CALLED THE
i 16 WITNESSES GANG-BANGER WITNESSES. I DON'T THINK THAT'S
r
17 VERY PROFESSIONAL. THEY MIGHT BE MEMBERS OF A GANG.
18 THAT'S THE PROFESSIONAL WAY TO REFER TO THEM. CALLING
19 THEM GANG-BANGERS IS NOT QUITE AS BAD AS A RACIAL SLUR,
r 20 BUT IT'S SOMETHING IN THAT BALLPARK. AND I THINK THAT
r 21
22
THE JUROR HAS USED THAT WORD, AND I'M QUITE SURPRISED
THAT THE PROSECUTOR USED THAT WORD IN COURT.
~
23 THE COURT: LET'S ANALYZE THIS ACCORDING TO THE
l
24 LAW.
r 25 THE FIRST REQUIREMENT IS TO DETERMINE WHETHER

26 MR. DOMINGUEZ' RIGHTS TO A FAIR TRIAL ARE COMPROMISED BY
r 27 WHAT THE ALTERNATE JUROR HAS SEEN. I FIND THEY ARE NOT.
r
1
28 HIS RIGHTS TO A FAIR TRIAL HAVE BEEN PRESERVED.
i
2103
, I
I
1 I DON'T FIND REASON TO EXCUSE THIS JUROR FOR

flit!
I
2 CAUSE. I WILL REMIND ALL JURORS OF THEIR DUTY TO BE I
3 FAIR AND IMPARTIAL. I GET THE SENSE THAT ALL JURORS ON

4 THIS CASE HAVE BEEN EXCEPTIONALLY CONSCIENTIOUS.
5 THE LADY IN QUESTION HAS JUST TOLD US SHE IS f2l'1 I
6 GETTING READY TO GO TO NOTEBOOK NO. 2. SHE IS NOT THE

~
7 ONLY JUROR WHO HAS DONE THIS. I
I
l
8 NOW, A PERSON CAN BE CONSCIENTIOUS BUT
9 NONETHELESS INFLUENCED, I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, BUT I FIND
10 HER TO BE CREDIBLE WHEN SHE STATES THAT THIS WILL NOT
11 AFFECT HER ABILITY TO BE FAIR AND IMPARTIAL.
12 MOREOVER, THE TWO OF YOU CAN RESEARCH IT IF YOU
13
14
WANT, BUT MY SENSE IS THAT JURORS ARE, IN FACT, ALLOWED
TO CONSIDER ANY PERCEIVED INTERACTIONS THAT THEY SEE , !
15
16
BETWEEN WITNESSES AND ANYBODY IN THE COURTROOM.
I THINK IF THE SHOE WERE ON THE OTHER FOOT AND
, II
17 WE HAD A PROSECUTION WITNESS WHO KEPT LOOKING OVER AT

~
,
j
18 THE DETECTIVE AS IF TO GAIN APPROVAL FOR WHAT HE OR SHE I
19 WAS SAYING OR AS IF TO GET A HINT FOR THE ANSWER, I

20
21
THINK THE DEFENSE WOULD BE SAYING, "GOLLY, THE JURORS
OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO HEAR THAT AND CONSIDER THAT." IF , 1
j
22 THE TWO OF YOU FIND RESEARCH TO THE CONTRARY SUCH THAT
~
23 YOU THINK A CAUTIONARY INSTRUCTION OR SOME OTHER REMEDY I
I
~)
24 IS APPROPRIATE, I'LL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO CONSIDER IT.

25 BOTTOM LINE IS WHAT I THINK I'M GOING TO DO IS
26 ASK SHERIFF'S PERSONNEL TO STAND BY OUT IN THE HALLWAY
27 WITH THE JURORS DURING RECESS, UNOBTRUSIVELY, BUT HAVE l
28 THEIR PRESENCE KNOWN OUT THERE, JUST TO PREVENT ANY
l
, J
r 2104
r
!
1 INTERACTION, HOWEVER INADVERTENT IT MIGHT BE, BETWEEN
r 2
3
ANYBODY AND THE JURORS.
OKAY. SO THE MOTION TO EXCUSE THE JUROR IS
~
!
4 DENIED. ANY OTHER REQUESTS OR MOTIONS FROM EITHER
r 5
6
COUNSEL?
MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU.
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO.
THIS AFTERNOON, OUR BATTING ORDER?
r
t
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S GOING TO BE VICTOR
r 10
11
DOMINGUEZ, CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, DIANA BANUELOS, FRANKIE
SANDOVAL, LARRY THOMPSON AND SUSAN MERCURIO.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
MR. TROCHA, DO YOU HAVE THAT?
I DO.
r 14
15
THE COURT:
THANKS TO BOTH COUNSEL.
OKAY. WE WILL BE IN RECESS.
WE'LL SEE YOU AT 1:30 THIS
MY
r 16
17
AFTERNOON.
r
18 BE RESUMED AT 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25 Ill
Ill
r
26
27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
,
,
J
2105
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011; 1:35 PM

~
I
2 !
3 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN , I

6 AND GENTLEMEN. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. NO
7 MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. WE NEED TO UPDATE THE
8 CONTINUING ISSUES RELATING TO THIS CASE AS A GANG CASE.
9 RIGHT BEFORE THE LUNCH HOUR CONCLUDED, I WAS
10 INFORMED BY THE BAILIFF THAT 38TH STREET HAS BEEN TAGGED
11 ON ONE OF THE BENCHES FOR THE PUBLIC RIGHT OUTSIDE OF
12 THIS DEPARTMENT. I WENT OUT AND SAW IT. ~
!
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI WAS THERE AND IT WAS POINTED
14 OUT TO HIM TOO, AND, IN FACT, 38TH STREET IS ETCHED INTO 159
I
i
15
16
THE BACK OF ONE OF THE WOODEN BENCHES. DETECTIVE
LAMBERT AND MR. TROCHA AND MR. SPEREDELOZZI WERE ALL IN
,I
17
18
THE COURTROOM WHEN I MENTIONED THIS, AND EVERYBODY
SEEMED TO BE AWARE OF IT.
, I
19 DETECTIVE LAMBERT, I BELIEVE, STATED THAT HE

20 HAD BEEN ON THAT BENCH, SITTING IN THAT LOCATION l
21 YESTERDAY, AND IT WASN'T THERE AT THAT TIME; IS THAT
22 CORRECT?
l
23 THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER: THAT IS CORRECT, ~
1
J
24 YOUR HONOR; THAT IS, BEFORE WE STARTED THE A.M.

25 SESSION. l
26 THE COURT: SO YESTERDAY MORNING IT WASN'T
27 THERE, AND IT'S THERE NOW. l
28 I THINK OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, I WOULD
l
r 2106
r 1 INDICATE TO THE JURORS THAT LINE OUT OF INSTRUCTION 222

r 2 THAT SAYS YOU MUST DISREGARD ANYTHING YOU SAW OR HEARD
3 WHEN THE COURT WAS NOT IN SESSION, EVEN IF IT WAS DONE
r 4 OR SAID BY ONE OF THE PARTIES OR WITNESSES. I THINK
r 5
6
IT'S JUST WORTH MENTIONING THAT TO THEM.
ALSO, I THINK I AM, FOR THE DUAL REASON OF
r 7
8
PROTECTING THE COURT'S PROPERTY AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY,
ENSURING THE INTEGRITY OF THE PROCEEDINGS HERE, GOING TO
r 9 ASK THAT AT LEAST WHEN THE JURORS ARE EXCUSED IN THE

10 HALLWAY DURING RECESSES THAT WE HAVE A BAILIFF SOMEWHERE
r 11 IN THAT HALLWAY JUST STANDING UNOBTRUSIVELY TO MONITOR
12 THINGS.
r 13 DOES ANYBODY WISH TO BE HEARD WITH RESPECT TO
r 14
15
EITHER OF THESE PROPOSALS?
r 17
18
THE NEXT POINT IS, AS ALWAYS HAPPENS AT SOME
r 19
20
POINT DURING THE TRIAL, THE TRANSPORTING BAILIFFS
INFORMED ME THAT IN BRINGING MR. DOMINGUEZ INTO THE
r 21
22
COURTROOM OR UP FROM THE HOLDING TANK, THEY FOUND
THEMSELVES IN THE PRESENCE OF ONE OF THE JURORS,
r 23
24
POSSIBLY AN ALTERNATE, WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SEEN
MR. DOMINGUEZ IN THE CUSTODY OF THE BAILIFFS.
r
L 25 NOW, THE FACT THAT HE'S IN CUSTODY I DON'T
26 THINK HAS BEEN A SECRET IN THIS CASE; IN FACT, IT'S EVEN
r 27 BEEN BROUGHT OUT FROM TIME TO TIME DURING THE TRIAL, AT
r 28 LEAST HAVING TO DO WITH WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED ON THIS
r
~
I
J
2107
~
i
j
1 CASE.
2 OUR NORMAL THOUGHT IS, AND THE REASON WE HAVE
3 DEFENDANTS DRESSED OUT, IS SO THAT THEY'RE NOT SITTING ~I
i
4 HERE IN JAIL CLOTHES, SHACKLED, LOOKING LIKE DANGEROUS
5 CONVICTS AND CONVEYING THAT PSYCHOLOGICAL AND SUBLIMINAL ~
,
\
J
6 MESSAGE TO JURORS. IN A PERFECT WORLD, THEY WOULD NOT
7 KNOW HE WAS IN CUSTODY UNLESS IT WAS COUNSEL'S INTENTION
i
8 THAT THEY KNOW.
9 WHEN WE GET THESE SITUATIONS SUCH AS THIS, A
10 POSSIBLE JUROR SIGHTING OF THE DEFENDANT IN CUSTODY,
~ I
11 IT'S MY PRACTICE TO INQUIRE OF DEFENSE COUNSEL AS TO J
12 WHETHER YOU WANT ME TO GIVE THEM SOME LOW-KEY CAUTIONARY

13
14
15
INSTRUCTION, OR WOULD YOU PREFER NOT TO EMPHASIZE IT?
IT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I PREFER NOT TO EMPHASIZE
I'M GOING TO, OVER THE WEEKEND, SUBMIT MY PROPOSED
, J
16 JURY INSTRUCTIONS, AND I WOULD MAYBE SUGGEST SOMETHING

l
17 IN THE CLOSING INSTRUCTIONS WITH REGARD TO IT.
~
I
18 THE COURT: ANY CUSTOM INSTRUCTIONS WOULD BE I
J
19 INVITED AND INCLUDED ON THAT SUBJECT.

20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU. l
THE COURT: OKAY. GREAT. LET'S GET THE JURORS
21
1
22 IN HERE, PLEASE, AS WELL AS MR. DOMINGUEZ'S FAMILY.
24 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
25 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND l
26 GOOD AFTERNOON. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL JURORS
27 HAVE ENTERED THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL l
28 PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED, OF COURSE, REMAIN PRESENT.
l
r 2108
i
t
1 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MAY I THANK EACH ONE OF
r 2 YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED SERVICE IN THIS CASE. IT IS
r 3
4
IMPORTANT WORK THAT YOU DO FOR US HERE.
I'M GOING TO READ TO YOU RIGHT NOW A SENTENCE
r 5
6
FROM THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS THAT YOU WILL GET AT THE END
OF THE CASE. IT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE RELEVANCE TO
r 7
8
ANYTHING THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN, BUT I THINK IT'S A
GOOD TIME TO READ THIS TO YOU.
r 9 THIS IS INSTRUCTION 222 THAT DEALS WITH

10 EVIDENCE. IT BEGINS BY TELLING YOU THAT YOU MUST DECIDE
r 11 WHAT THE FACTS ARE IN THIS CASE. YOU MUST USE ONLY THE
r 12
13
EVIDENCE THAT WAS PRESENTED IN THIS COURTROOM.
EVIDENCE IS THE SWORN TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES,
r 14
15
THE EXHIBITS ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE AND ANYTHING ELSE I
TOLD YOU TO CONSIDER AS EVIDENCE.
r 16
17
NOW, YOU MUST DISREGARD ANYTHING THAT YOU MAY
HAVE SEEN OR HEARD WHEN THE COURT WAS NOT IN SESSION,
r 18 EVEN IF IT WAS DONE BY ONE OF THE PARTIES OR WITNESSES.
r 19
20
SO, PLEASE, IF YOU'VE SEEN OR OBSERVED ANYTHING OUT IN
THE HALLWAY THAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE CONNECTED WITH THIS
r 21
22
CASE -- IF YOU THINK THERE IS ANY MISCONDUCT OR ANY
IMPROPRIETY INVOLVED, OF COURSE, LET ME KNOW GIVE THE
r 23
24
BAILIFF A NOTE, GIVE THE CLERK A NOTE -- AND I'LL BE
GLAD TO ADDRESS IT.
r 25 SHORT OF THAT, DON'T DISCUSS IT WITH YOUR
r 26
27
NEIGHBORS, AND PLEASE DISREGARD ANYTHING THAT IS NOT
EVIDENCE IF IT WASN'T WITHIN THE FOUR CORNERS OF THIS
r 28 COURTROOM.
r
~I
i
j
2109
~
I
J
1 IS THIS ACCEPTABLE WITH EVERYBODY? I'M SEEING

~
I
2 ALL AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSES. I
3 NEXT, ONE OF THE JURORS REMINDED ME RIGHT

4 BEFORE WE BROKE THAT SOME OF YOU MAY BE EXHAUSTING YOUR
5 FIRST NOTEBOOK. AND IF YOU ARE AND IF YOU'VE COME TO
6 THAT POINT AND YOU DON'T ALREADY HAVE A SECOND NOTEBOOK,
7
8
LET ME KNOW AND WE'LL GET YOU ONE.
IS ANYBODY WITHIN A PAGE OR TWO FROM THE END OF
l
~)
9 THEIR NOTEBOOK? MS. ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2 IS. MAY WE \
;
10 HAVE ANOTHER NOTEBOOK FOR MS. ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2.

11 YOU'LL SEE THESE AREN'T VERY THICK NOTEBOOKS.
12 IT'S NOT BECAUSE WE DON'T TRUST YOU. IT'S BECAUSE IN
13
14
15
THESE TRYING ECONOMIC TIMES, WE'RE TRYING TO BE AS
ECONOMIC AS POSSIBLE.
ANYBODY ELSE THINK THEY WOULD LIKE ANOTHER PAD
,
16
17
18
AT THIS POINT?
RESPONSES.
I'M SEEING NO OTHER AFFIRMATIVE
WE CONTINUE WITH THE PRESENTATION OF THE
,
1
J
19 DEFENSE EVIDENCE. MR. SPEREDELOZZI.

20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE DEFENSE CALLS FRANCISCO l
21 SANDOVAL.
l
23
24
l
25 TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO l J
26 HELP YOU GOD?

27 THE WITNESS: I DO. l
l
l
r 2110
[
r 2 THE COURT: UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR.
r
3 GOOD AFTERNOON.
4 THE WITNESS: HOW ARE YOU DOING?
r 5
6
r 7
8
THE WITNESS:
S-A-N-D-0-V-A-L.
FRANCISCO SANDOVAL,
r
f.
9 THE COURT: MR. SANDOVAL, THANK YOU.

r 12
13
FRANCISCO SANDOVAL,
r 14
15
AS FOLLOWS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 16
17
Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. SANDOVAL.
r 18 A. HOW ARE YOU DOING?
r 19
20
Q. GOOD.
YOU ALSO GO BY SOMETHING ELSE, RIGHT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
FRANKIE.
HOW ABOUT YOUNG SICC?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
ONCE UPON A TIME IN MY LIFE.
YOU'RE ACTUALLY NOT A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH
r 25 STREET, RIGHT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
NO, I'M NOT.
YOUNG SICC IS SOMETHING ELSE?
r 28 A. ENTERTAINMENT.
r
2111
, J
~
l
1 Q. WHAT KIND OF ENTERTAINMENT?
2 A. HIP-HOP, RAPPING.
3 Q. WHAT DO YOU DO WITH REGARD TO THAT?
4
5
6
A.
Q.
I USED TO RAP.
LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
LIVING, FOR WORK?
WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A , j
~
7 A. I'M NOW A PLUMBING APPRENTICE.
j
8 Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE DEFENDANT?
9 HOW DO YOU KNOW HIM? 1
10 A. A FRIEND OF MINE.
11 Q. CAN YOU POINT HIM OUT AND NAME AN ARTICLE OF
12 CLOTHING ON HIM? ~
,
I
J
13 A. FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ, BLACK SUIT WITH A TIE.
14 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE
I
J
15 WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THE DEFENDANT.

l
18 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HIM?
19 A. SINCE WE WERE KIDS.
20 Q. ABOUT MAYBE 20 YEARS? l
21 A. YEAH, ROUGHLY.
l
23
24
A.
Q.
32.
SO YOU'VE KNOWN HIM SINCE YOU WERE AROUND 12
l
25 YEARS OLD? l
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. WHERE DID YOU GROW UP? l
28 A. I GREW UP IN SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO.
l
l
r 2112
r 1 Q. WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD?
r 2 A. SHELLTOWN.
r 3
4 15?
Q. SHELLTOWN, IS THAT BETWEEN THE 805 AND THE
r 5
6
A.
Q.
UH-HUH.
AND THEN IT'S -- THE NORTH BORDER IS WHAT? DO
r 7
8
YOU KNOW WHAT STREET?
A. THE NORTH BORDER? I GUESS LIKE GREENWOOD
r 9
10
CEMETERY, IMPERIAL AVENUE.
Q. OCEAN VIEW PARK IS IN SHELLTOWN?
F
t 11 A. CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SOUTH CREST PARK IS IN SHELLTOWN?
CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. APPROXIMATELY WHAT PART OF SHELLTOWN, NORTH OR
SOUTH, DID YOU GROW UP?
r 16
17
A. I'M TRYING TO -- THE EAST, MORE LIKE E.C.C.
SHELLTOWN IS NOT JUST A NEIGHBORHOOD, RIGHT?
r
Q.
18 WHAT ELSE IS IT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
IT'S A GANG.
IT'S LIKE A STREET GANG, A HISPANIC STREET
r 21
22
GANG?
A. CORRECT.
r 23
24
Q. DO YOU KNOW ANYBODY WHO IS MEMBERS OF THAT GANG
OR HAS BEEN?
r 25 A. I KNEW A FEW PEOPLE GROWING UP.
r
26 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED
27 JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?
r 28 A. YES, I DO.
r
1
2113
, j
l
,
2 A. A FRIEND.
3 Q. DO YOU HANG AROUND WITH HIM?
)
A.
4
5 Q.
NOT LATELY. I HAVEN'T SEEN HIM IN A WHILE.
IF HE CALLED YOU UP AND ASKED YOU TO GO OUT FOR ., l
6 COFFEE, WOULD YOU?
7 A. PROBABLY, YEAH. 1 1
8 Q. DO YOU KNOW RANDY BARNES?

9 A. YES, I KNOW RANDY.
10 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, THESE TWO PEOPLE I JUST
11 MENTIONED, WERE THEY MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN AT ANY TIME?
12 A. I BELIEVE SO, YEAH.
13 Q. DID YOU HANG AROUND THEM WHEN YOU WERE YOUNGER?
l
14
15
A.
OLDER.
RANDY MORE, AND THEN I MET JONATHAN WHEN I GOT
l
16 Q. OTHER THAN THESE TWO, DID YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO
17 WERE GANG MEMBERS WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP?
18 A. YES, I DID. 1 .!
19 Q. OKAY. MR. DOMINGUEZ --WHEN YOU WERE GROWING

20 UP, WAS HE A GANG MEMBER? 1
,
21 A. AT ONE POINT OF HIS LIFE, YEAH.
l
23 A. LIKE TEENAGE, MID, EARLY TWENTIES PROBABLY.
J
24 Q. MID TO EARLY TWENTIES? SO FROM LATE TEENS --

25 WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE? l
26 A. EXACTLY.
27 Q. -- TO SOMEWHERE IN HIS EARLY TWENTIES? 1
28 A. ROUGH, GIVE OR TAKE.
l
l
r 2114
[
1 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW OLD HE IS?
r 2
3
A. YEAH. I THINK WE WERE BORN THE SAME YEAR, SO
HE'S ACTUALLY 33, I BELIEVE, YEAH.
4 Q. WITH REGARD TO HIP-HOP, RAP, THINGS LIKE THAT
r 5
6
HOW DOES YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ -- HOW IS
IT RELATED TO THAT, HIP-HOP?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
AS FAR AS OUR FRIENDSHIP?
YEAH.
r 9 A. WE'RE COOL. I MEAN, WHEN I WAS RAPPING, HE HAD
r 10
11
HIS OWN RECORD LABEL AND I WAS DOING MY OWN THING.
Q. WERE YOU MAKING MUSIC WITH HIM?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT KIND?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
HIP-HOP.
HAVE YOU HEARD OF LIL AL?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, I HAVE.
WHO IS THAT?
r 18 A. JUST A RAPPER.
r 19
20
Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHAT IS LIL AL'S
RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ AS FAR AS MUSIC?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
TO MY RECOLLECTION, ONE OF HIS ARTISTS.
A HIP-HOP ARTIST?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SO HE'S A RAPPER?
r 25 A. CORRECT.
r 26
27
Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF A PLACE IN SPRING VALLEY WHERE
MUSIC IS MADE?
r 28 A. AT ONE POINT, YES.
r
,
,
I
I
2115
,
j
1 Q. WHAT IS THIS PLACE?

2 A. RECORDING STUDIO.
3 Q. AND DO YOU KNOW WHO OWNED IT? , J
,
4 A. FROM MY KNOWLEDGE, CHUNKY. r
5 Q. AND CHUNKY IS WHO?

J
6 A. I'M SORRY. FLORENCIO.
7 Q. YOU CALL HIM CHUNKY?
8 A. YEAH. IT'S A FAMILY NAME.
9 Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT IN A GANG. ARE YOU ALLOWED TO
10 CALL HIM CHUNKY?
11 A. SURE. HIS MOTHER GAVE HIM THAT NAME. l
12 Q. HIS MOTHER DID?
13 A. YEAH.
l )
14 Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ISABELLE?

15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. WHO ELSE CALLS HIS CHUNKY?
l
17 A. JUST PEOPLE THAT KNOW HIM. YOU KNOW, HIS
18 FAMILY, HIS FRIENDS. 1
19 Q. FRIENDS, FAMILY?
20 A. UH-HUH.
l
21 Q. WOULD THAT INCLUDE SISTERS, BROTHERS, COUSINS?
22 A. EXACTLY.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
OLDER FRIENDS?
UH-HUH.
l
25 Q. OKAY. DID YOU KNOW THE NAME SPEEDY? l
26 A. AT ONE POINT, YES.
27 Q. WHEN DID HE GO BY THAT NAME? l
28 A. IN HIS EARLY, LIKE I SAID, TWENTIES OR TEENAGE
l
l
r 2116
r 1 DAYS.
r 2 Q. YOU SAY HE WAS A GANG MEMBER UNTIL HE WAS ABOUT
r 3
4
24, 25?
A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY THE AGE, BUT --
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHY DO YOU SAY HE'S NOT A GANG MEMBER NOW?
BECAUSE THE CHUNKY THAT I KNOW HAS ALWAYS BEEN
r 7
8
A FAMILY MAN AND BEING MORE ATTENTIVE TO HIS THREE
CHILDREN AND HIS WIFE AND HIS RESPONSIBILITIES AND STUFF
r 9
10
LIKE THAT.
Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MUSIC FOR A SECOND.
r 11 HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF HOOD RAISED?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES, I HAVE.
WHAT IS THAT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
A RECORD LABEL.
AND WHO OWNS THAT RECORD LABEL?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
FROM MY KNOWLEDGE, CHUNKY.
AND DID YOU EVER RECORD WITH HOOD RAISED?
~
l 18 A. I'VE HAD BRIEF STINTS HERE AND THERE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
THAT WASN'T YOUR RECORD LABEL.
NO, IT WASN'T.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
BUT YOU DO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM?
OF COURSE.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP?
IT'S FRIENDS, YOU KNOW, JUST TRYING TO MAKE
r 25 MUSIC.
r 26
27
Q. NOW, HAVING GROWN UP IN SHELLTOWN AND HAVING
MR. DOMINGUEZ ONCE BEEN IN A GANG AND YOU KNOWING GANG
r 28 MEMBERS, HOW DOES THE GANG RELATE TO THE MUSIC YOU WERE
r
2117
,
l
1
2
3
MAKING?
A.
Q.
AS FAR AS?
DID YOU USE THE GANG IMAGERY OR GANG SYMBOLS OR
,
l
4
5
6
ANYTHING LIKE THAT TO PROMOTE THE MUSIC OR WRITE THE
MUSIC?
A. I MEAN, JUST GROWING UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT,
, J
l
,
7 YOU KNOW, THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT. IF
8 YOU'RE NOT FROM THERE, YOU KNOW -- I MEAN, I GREW UP
9 THERE, YOU KNOW, AND I USED TO ALWAYS WRITE MUSIC WHEN I
10 WAS A KID AND I LOVE WRITING MUSIC, SO I JUST WRITE, YOU
11 KNOW, MY IMAGINATION, MAYBE STUFF I SEE, MAYBE. l
12 Q. MR. SANDOVAL, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S
l
13
14
15
EXHIBIT 234.
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHO'S THE GENTLEMAN IN THE FOREFRONT OF THE
,
16 PICTURE WITH THE BLUE HAT?
l
17 A. THAT'S ME.
~
18 Q. THAT'S YOU? THAT'S NOT LIL AL? J
19 A. NO. THAT'S ME. I THINK IT'S ME. IT LOOKS
20 LIKE ME. 1
21 Q. THE GUY ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHT IN THE BLACK
22 SHIRT AND BLACK HAT --
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THAT'S CHUNKY.
AND THE GUY IN THE MIDDLE SITTING DOWN --
1
25 A. I DIDN'T KNOW HIM THAT DAY. l
26 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THIS WAS TAKEN?
27 A. I WANT TO SAY '05, '06. I DON'T REALLY l
28 REMEMBER, BUT I KNOW IT WAS YEARS AGO.
l
l
r 2118
r 1 Q. WHY WAS THIS TAKEN?
r 2 A. I USED TO GET PHOTOSHOOTS READY AND TRY TO PICK

3 A GOOD PICTURE READY FOR AN ALBUM COVER OR POSTER OR
r 4 SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
r 5
6
Q. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE STYLE OF CLOTHING
YOU'RE WEARING IS KIND OF URBAN?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YOU KNOW, ONE CAN MAKE THAT JUDGMENT.
WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT?
r 9 A. IT'S URBAN. I MEAN, YEAH.
r 10
11
12
Q. YOU DON'T DRESS LIKE THAT -- LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE,
TODAY, YOU DIDN'T DRESS LIKE THAT TO COME TO COURT AND
TESTIFY, DID YOU?

r 13 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHEN YOU GO TO WORK, DO YOU DRESS LIKE THAT?
NO, I DON'T DRESS LIKE THAT AT WORK.
r 16
17
Q. WHY WOULD YOU DRESS LIKE THIS FOR A PICTURE
WITH REGARD TO MUSIC?
r 18 A. JUST WHEN I WAS MORE INVOLVED IN THE HIP-HOP AT
19 THAT TIME. YOU KNOW, I WAS TRYING TO PUT SAN DIEGO ON

r 20 THE MAP AS FAR AS RAPPERS ARE CONCERNED, BECAUSE A LOT
r 21
22
OF THE RAPPING AND HIP-HOP IS PREDOMINANTLY LOS ANGELES,
YOU KNOW.
r 23
24
Q. THAT'S INTERESTING YOU MENTIONED THAT.
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF SOMEBODY CALLED SNOOP
r 25 DOGGY DOGG?
r
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS HE EVER A MEMBER OF
r 28 A GANG?
r
2119
1
l
1 A. PROBABLY, YEAH. I THINK SO, YEAH.
2 Q. SNOOP DOGGY DOGG, HE'S BEEN -- NO OFFENSE -- A l
3 LITTLE MORE SUCCESSFUL AT HIP-HOP THAN YOU, RIGHT?
4 A. YEAH, YOU COULD SAY THAT. l
THE REASON I BRING HIM UP IS: IS THERE
5
6
Q.
PARALLEL BETWEEN THE WAY YOU GUYS TRY TO USE THE GANG
1
7 IMAGERY AND GANG LIFESTYLE, SO TO SPEAK, TO PROMOTE YOUR l 4
8 MUSIC? IS THAT SOMETHING YOU CAN SPEAK TO?

9 A. I DON'T KNOW. YOU KNOW, WHERE I COME FROM, YOU l
10 KNOW, I'M BORN AND RAISED THERE, LIKE I SAID. I RAP
l
11
12
13
ABOUT CULTURE, ABOUT HIP-HOP, ABOUT LOW-RIDERS, STREET
STUFF.
Q. WHAT IS STREET STUFF?
, }
14
15
A. LIKE LOW-RIDERS, A CULTURE, YOU KNOW.
LOT OF GUYS USED TO HAVE LOW-RIDERS.
LIKE A
I USED TO LOVE
1
16 RIDING IN LOW-RIDERS, ALWAYS TALK ABOUT IT A LOT.
l
17 Q. THAT IS A VEHICLE THAT RIDES LOW TO THE GROUND?
18 A. EXACTLY. l
19 Q. WITH REGARD TO RAPPING, DO YOU RAP ABOUT
20 SHELL TOWN? 1
21 A. I'VE BEEN KNOWN TO, LIKE, SAY IN A FEW SONGS
22 HERE AND THERE IN THE PAST THAT, YEAH, I'VE CAME FROM
l
23
24
SHELLTOWN AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
Q. WOULD YOU EVER BE SCARED TO RAP ABOUT SHELLTOWN
1
25 KNOWING THAT YOU'RE NOT IN A GANG? l
26 A. NOT REALLY.
27 Q. OKAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT MYSPACE FOR A SECOND. l
28 MYSPACE IS KIND OF OUTDATED, IS IT NOT?
l
l
r 2120
r i A. I'M SORRY?
r 2 Q. MYSPACE IS KIND OF OUTDATED, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YEAH, PRETTY MUCH.
WHY?
r 5
6
A. I HAVEN'T BEEN ON MYSPACE FOREVER.
CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER THE LAST TIME.
I MEAN, I
IT'S MORE LIKE KIDS,
r 7
8
SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW.
Q. A FEW YEARS AGO, HOW DID YOU USE MYSPACE TO
r 9 PROMOTE YOUR MUSIC?
r 10
11
A. EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID, JUST PROMOTE, YOU KNOW,
JUST PUT A PICTURE LIKE THIS, YOU KNOW, MAYBE ADD A FEW
r 12
13
SONGS, YOU KNOW.
Q. AND --
r 14
15
A.
Q.
GENERATE A LOT OF FOLLOWERS.
-- WHO WOULD RUN YOUR MYSPACE ACCOUNT?
r 16
17
A. I HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE.
YOU KNOW WHAT'S FUNNY IS NOWADAYS IT SEEMS LIKE
r 18 ANYBODY CAN MAKE A MYSPACE ACCOUNT, YOU KNOW. IT'S
19 OBVIOUSLY PROBABLY NOT THAT HARD. BUT I HAD, LIKE,
r 20 PEOPLE THAT WERE JUST HELPING ME PROMOTE IT AT ONE TIME.
r 21
22
Q. AND, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DID MR. DOMINGUEZ USE
MYSPACE TO PROMOTE HIS RECORD LABEL?
r 23
24
A. TO MY RECOLLECTION, YEAH, PROBABLY. I DON'T
REALLY RECALL, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE, YEAH, ONE TIME,
r 25
26
MAYBE.
Q. LET ME ASK ABOUT HIS PERSONAL LIFE --
r 27 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 28 DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY CHILDREN HE HAS?
r
1
1 A. YES, I DO.
2121
,
2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO APPROACH, YOUR 1
3 HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE A SERIES OF EXHIBITS,
5
6 AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THEM AS WE GO.
1
7
8
MR. TROCHA:
ASK FOR SIDEBAR.
I'M GOING TO OBJECT, YOUR HONOR.
l
1
9
10
11
12
THE COURT: SIDEBAR RULE.
WE ARE BACK ON THE RECORD.
,
13 YOU MAY CONTINUE, MR. SPEREDELOZZI. l
14
15
Q. SO WHO ARE HIS CHILDREN, DO YOU KNOW?
1
16
17
A.
Q.
JOSE, DANNY AND LEAH.
HOW OLD ARE THEY?
l
18 A. I BELIEVE JOSE IS -- I WANT TO SAY 13. 12, 13. l
19 DANNY IS, I BELIEVE, 10, AND LEAH IS AROUND 7 OR 8.
20 Q. AND DO YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ'S WIFE? 1
21 A. YES, I DO.
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NATALIE.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE THEY LIVE?
l
25 A. YES, I DO. l
26 Q. WHAT TOWN DO THEY LIVE IN?
27 A. EL CAJON. l
28 Q. HOW LONG HAVE THEY LIVED THERE?
l
l
r 2122
r 1 A. SEEMS LIKE FOREVER.
r 2 Q. LONG TIME?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
LONG TIME.
HAVE YOU BEEN TO HIS HOUSE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, I HAVE.
HOW MANY TIMES?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I COULDN'T COUNT.
WHAT DOES HIS HOUSE LOOK LIKE INSIDE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
FAMILY HOUSE. KIDS, TOYS,
GRAFFITI ON THE WALLS?

FAMILY HOME.
c 11 A. NO.
r 12
13
Q.
THAT?
GANG SYMBOLS ON THE REFRIGERATOR, ANYTHING LIKE
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NOT TO MY RECOLLECTION.
WHAT ABOUT PICTURES OF THE KIDS, DO THEY HAVE
r 16
17
THOSE ON THE WALLS?
A. ON THE REFRIGERATOR I REMEMBER ONE TIME,
r 18 YEAH.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU'VE BEEN TO HIS HOUSE?
IT'S BEEN PROBABLY ABOUT A FEW MONTHS. I WENT
r 21
22
TO PICK UP HIS SONS, JOSE AND DANNY, TO HELP THEM PLAY
BASEBALL.
r 23
24
Q. HAVE YOU OBSERVED HIM AROUND HIS FRIENDS AND
FAMILY IN THE PAST?
r 25 A. YES, I HAVE.
r 26
27
Q. AND HAVE YOU OBSERVED HIM AROUND HIS EXTENDED
FAMILY, LIKE COUSINS AND AUNTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT?
r 28 A. YES, I HAVE.
r
2123
1
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BRIEF SIDEBAR, YOUR HONOR?
2 THE COURT: YES. SIDEBAR RULE, LADIES AND l
3 GENTLEMEN.
l
4
5
6 Q.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ'S PHYSICAL
,
7
8
APPEARANCE.
HOW DID MR. DOMINGUEZ WEAR HIS HAIR USUALLY?
l
1
9
10
11
12 HIM.
A.
Q.
A.
SHORT.
WOULD YOU SAY SHAVED OR BALD?
SHAVED, YEAH, MOST OF THE TIME I WOULD SEE
, J
13 Q. WAS IT A WIFFLE OR WAS IT LIKE A BIC SHAVE? l

14 THE COURT: YOU KNOW, MR. SPEREDELOZZI, I HAVE
1
15
16
17
TO CONFESS THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT A WIFFLE IS.
WIFFLE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
WHAT'S A
IS THAT AN EAST COAST THING?

,
l
18
19
20
THE COURT: IT MAY BE. I JUST WANT TO MAKE THE
RECORD, SO PLEASE MAKE IT AS CLEAR AS YOU WOULD LIKE IT
TO BE.
,
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: LET ME GIVE YOU AN OFFER OF
22 PROOF.
l
23
24
THE COURT: OFFER OF PROOF WOULD BE GOOD.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FOR EXAMPLE, THE DETECTIVE
l
25 HERE DOES NOT HAVE A WIFFLE. IT APPEARS AS THOUGH HE l
26 SHAVED HIS HEAD WITH A STRAIGHT BLADE TO THE SKIN,
27 WHEREAS A WIFFLE WOULD GENERALLY USE AN ELECTRIC RAZOR l
28 AND YOU WOULD STILL HAVE A THIN LAYER OF HAIR.
l
l
r 2124
r 1 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 2: LIKE A BUZZ CUT.
r 2 THE COURT: LIKE A BUZZ CUT, THIS COMING FROM
r 3
4
ALTERNATE JUROR SITTING IN SEAT 2.
WEST COASTERS, EQUIVALENT TO A BUZZ CUT.
SO WIFFLE IS, FOR US
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
I USE WIFFLE.
DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU, SIR?
~
I 7 THE WITNESS: SURE.
l
8 THE COURT: OKAY. ONE IS WHERE WE SHAVE IT;
r 9 THE OTHER IS WHERE YOU RUN THE CLIPPERS ON THE LOWEST
r 10
11
POSSIBLE SETTING, BUT YOU'VE GOT A LITTLE BIT OF SHAVE
THERE SHOWING. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
r 12
13
THE WITNESS:
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
YES.
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS
r 14
15
TALKING ABOUT.
THE COURT: REASK, PLEASE.
r 16
17
Q. OKAY. MR. SANDOVAL, DO YOU KNOW WHAT A WIFFLE
r 18
19
IS?
A. YEAH.
r 20 Q. IS THIS A BALD SHAVED HEAD OR A WIFFLE
VERSION?
r 21
22 A. BALD SHAVED HEAD.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WITH LIKE A STRAIGHT BLADE?
YEAH.
r 25
26 THAT?
Q. AND HIS FACIAL HAIR, HOW DOES HE USUALLY WEAR
r 27 A. EVERY TIME I SEE HIM, LIKE MUSTACHE, GOATEE.
r 28 Q. MUSTACHE AND A GOATEE?
r
2125
1
1
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. YOU SAID EVERY TIME YOU'VE SEEN HIM -- 1
3 A. I MEAN, YEAH.
4 Q. DO YOU SEE HIM ON A REGULAR BASIS? l
5 A. NOT LATELY, OBVIOUSLY. BUT, YEAH, I MEAN
6 WHENEVER I WASN'T WORKING OR HE WASN'T WORKING OR
1
7 ANYTHING. 1
.J
8 Q. HOW ABOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ'S TATTOOS, DO YOU HAVE

9 KNOWLEDGE OF THOSE? 1
10 A. SOME OF THEM, YEAH.
11 Q. DOES HE HAVE GANG TATTOOS? 1
12 A. TO MY RECOLLECTION, I THINK SO.
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN HE GOT HIS LAST GANG TATTOO? l
14
15
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW. I COULDN'T EVEN TELL YOU.
TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAS HE GOTTEN ONE RECENTLY?
1
l
,
17 Q. WERE YOU AWARE OF AN INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED IN
18 2004, A FIGHT IN 7-ELEVEN?
20 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER MR. DOMINGUEZ GETTING IN 1
21 TROUBLE IN 2004?
1
23
24
Q. BASED ON ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF MR. DOMINGUEZ,
KNOWING HIS FAMILY, HIMSELF FOR 20 YEARS, HIS FRIENDS,
1
25 MAKING MUSIC WITH HIM, HAVE YOU FORMED AN OPINION AS TO l
26 HIS CHARACTER?
27 A. CHARACTER AS FAR AS? l
28 Q. IS HE VIOLENT?
l
1
r 2126
r 1 A. NOT TO MY RECOLLECTION.
r 2 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM BE VIOLENT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NOT REALLY.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE CURRENT CHARGES ARE IN
r 5
6
THIS CASE?
A. YES, I DO.
r 7
8
Q. ARE THOSE CHARGES CONSISTENT WITH THE CHARACTER
OF MR. DOMINGUEZ AS YOU KNOW IT?
r 9 A. NO.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
JUST I DON'T SEE HIM LIKE THAT AT ALL REALLY.
r 12
13
I CAN'T -- I WAS SHOCKED.
Q.
I CAN'T BELIEVE IT, YOU KNOW.
WHEN YOU HEARD, YOU WERE SURPRISED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
VERY.
WHY?
r 16
17
A. HE'S JUST GOT TOO MUCH TO LOSE:
KIDS, STUFF LIKE THAT.
GOT A WIFE,
YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST NOT HIS
r 18 CHARACTER.
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU.
r 21
22
r 23
24 BY MR. TROCHA:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 25
26
Q. MR. SANDOVAL, IS MR. DOMINGUEZ'S CHARACTER
CONSISTENT WITH SOMEONE WHO WOULD COMMIT AN ASSAULT WITH
r 27 A DEADLY WEAPON?
r 28 A. CONSISTENT? WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
r
2127
l
l
1 THE COURT: REASK, PLEASE.
2 MR. TROCHA: SURE. 1
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. IS HIS CHARACTER OF SOMEONE WHO WOULD COMMIT AN l
ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON?
5
6 A. NOT TO MY RECOLLECTION, NO.

l
7
8
Q.
A.
IN 2004, WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ MARRIED?
YEAH.
l
9 Q. TO THE SAME WOMAN? l
10 A. YEAH.
11 Q. AND JUDGING BY THE AGES OF HIS KIDS, THOSE l
12 THREE KIDS HAD BEEN BORN, CORRECT?
13 A. YEAH. l
14
15
Q. SO WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU TO LEARN IN 2004 THAT
MR. DOMINGUEZ AND ANOTHER SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET GANG
l
16
17
MEMBER ENTERED A 7-ELEVEN DOWN IN NATIONAL CITY WHERE AN
ASSAULT TOOK PLACE?
l
18 A. I DON'T KNOW. 1
19 Q. DID YOU EVER HEAR ABOUT THE TIME WHEN
20 MR. DOMINGUEZ AND THIS OTHER PERSON FROM SHELLTOWN l
21 WALKED UP TO THREE MEN INSIDE A 7-ELEVEN, HIS COMPANION
22 HIT ONE OF THOSE MEN IN THE HEAD WITH A BILLIARD BALL?
1
23
24
DID HE EVER TELL YOU ABOUT THAT?
l
25 FACTS OF THE PRIOR CONVICTION. 1
26 THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED.
27 BY MR. TROCHA: l
28 Q. DID HE EVER TELL YOU ABOUT THAT,
l
l
r 2128
r 1 MR. SANDOVAL?
r 2 A. BUT YOU SAID HIS COMPANION HIT HIM, RIGHT?
r
3 Q. RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM, CORRECT? I MEAN, DID HE
4 EVER TELL YOU ABOUT IT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO, I NEVER HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
DID HE EVER TELL YOU THAT IN THAT SAME
r 7
8
ALTERCATION, HE WENT AND ASSAULTED ONE OF THE OTHER
THREE MEN INSIDE THIS 7-ELEVEN?
r 9 A. I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS.
r 10
11
Q. AND PUNCHED THIS PERSON IN THE FACE, AND THAT
AS THEY RAN OUT, ONE OF THEM YELLED OUT "SHELLTOWN." HE
r 12
13
NEVER TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT?
A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
r 14
15
Q. THAT WOULD BE NOT CONSISTENT WITH HIS
NONVIOLENT CHARACTER, RIGHT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NONCONSISTENT? CAN YOU --
DO YOU KNOW WHAT CONSISTENT MEANS?
r
l
18 A. LIKE KEEP HAPPENING OVER AND OVER OR SOMETHING?
r 19
20
Q. RIGHT. SO, I MEAN, DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD
BE -- ASSAULTING A PERSON INSIDE A 7-ELEVEN, WOULD THAT
r
l
21 BE NONVIOLENT?
22 A. I WASN'T THERE, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING
r 23
24
ON, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.
Q. SO HE NEVER TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT?
r 25 A.
Q.
NOT TO MY RECOLLECTION, NO.
HE NEVER TOLD YOU ABOUT THE 245 OR ASSAULT WITH
r 26
27 A DEADLY WEAPON CONVICTION?
r 28 A. NO.
r
2129
l
l
1 Q. NOW, WE'VE ESTABLISHED YOU'RE ALSO FROM
2 SHELLTOWN. WHEN I SAY "FROM SHELLTOWN," I MEAN THE PART l
3 OF SAN DIEGO.
4 A. I GREW UP THERE. l
5 Q. IF SOMEONE ELSE SAYS THEY'RE FROM SHELLTOWN, IT
6 COULD MEAN THEY'RE FROM A GANG, RIGHT?
1
7
8
A. NOT NECESSARILY.
SHELLTOWN.
I MEAN, I GREW UP IN
l
9 Q. EXACTLY. I MEAN, I DON'T WANT TO IMPLICATE IF l
10 I SAY YOU'RE FROM SHELLTOWN, THAT MEANS YOU'RE A MEMBER
11 OF THE GANG. I JUST WANT TO MAKE A CLEAR. l
12 A. OKAY.
13 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY TATTOOS; IS THAT CORRECT? l
14 A. I DO.
15 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY TATTOOS OF YOUR RECORD LABEL?
l
16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU HAVE ANY TATTOOS THAT SAY "SHELLTOWN"?
l
18 A. NOPE. l
19 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY TATTOOS THAT SAY "38"?
l
20
21
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU HAVE ANY TATTOOS THAT SAY "OCEAN VIEW ,.
22
23
24
PARK"?
A.
Q.
NO.
ANY TATTOOS THAT SAY "OVP"?
, J
25
26
A. NO.
1
Q. BUT YOU'RE FROM SHELLTOWN, CORRECT,
27 MR. SANDOVAL? l
28 A. GREW UP THERE AND PROUD OF IT.
l
l
r 2130
r 1 Q. YOU GREW UP THERE AND RAP ABOUT GROWING UP IN

[ 2 SHELLTOWN, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
EXACTLY.
YOU DON'T FEEL IT WAS NECESSARY TO GO GET
r 5
6
TATTOOS TO SHOW YOU GREW UP IN SHELLTOWN?
A. IF I WOULD HAVE FOUND A BETTER TATTOO ARTIST.
r 7
8
Q. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU ACTUALLY WENT
OUT AND SOUGHT AND PUT ON YOUR BODY?
r 9 A. I GOT A SHELL TATTOOED ON MY MOM, LIKE A CROWN.

10 Q. ON YOUR MOM, THOUGH. IT'S NOT LIKE A SHELL
rI
11 WITH THE NUMBER 38 BY IT.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
HUH-UH.
THIS PICTURE WE'RE LOOKING AT, PEOPLE'S 234,
r 14
15
NOBODY IS THROWING UP HAND SIGNS, RIGHT?
A. NOPE.
r 16
17
Q. AND MR. DOMINGUEZ IS A FRIEND OF YOURS, SO YOU
INVITED HIM ALONG FOR THE PHOTOSHOOT, CORRECT?
r 18 THE COURT: YES?
19 THE WITNESS: YES. I'M SORRY.

r 20 THE COURT: THAT'S OKAY.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 21
22 Q. WHERE DID THIS GUY IN THE MIDDLE COME FROM?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
HE WAS JUST THERE THAT DAY.
HE LIVES THERE?
r 25 A. NO, HE DIDN'T LIVE THERE.
26 Q. HE JUST CAME ALONG AND HE WAS IN THE PHOTOSHOOT

~
I 27 AS WELL?
r 28 A. JUST WALKING THROUGH, "HEY, GET IN THE
r
2131
l
l
1 PICTURE."
2 Q. JUST THOUGHT HE FIT THE LOOK? 1
3 A. I GUESS.
4 Q. WHY WEREN'T YOU GUYS THROWING UP GANG SIGNS? l
A. I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND A GOOD PHOTO FOR AN
5
6 ALBUM COVER OR POSTER.
1
7
8
Q. YOU WERE ASKED A COUPLE QUESTIONS ABOUT USING
GANG IMAGERY TO SELL RECORDS.
l
9 WHY AREN'T YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT l
10 PHOTOGRAPH THROWING UP 38TH STREET OR SOMETHING LIKE
11 THAT? l
12 A. I'M TRYING TO TALK AT AN AUDIENCE.
13 Q. THIS AUDIENCE IS BROADER THAN JUST 38TH STREET l
14
15
GANG MEMBERS, RIGHT?
A. SNOOP DOGG HAS AN AUDIENCE BROADER THAT --
l
16
17
WORLDWIDE, YOU KNOW?
Q. EXACTLY. YOU JUST DON'T WRITE MUSIC FOR GANG
1
18 MEMBERS, DO YOU? l
19 A. WRITE MUSIC FOR GANG MEMBERS?
20 Q. RIGHT. l
21 A. I MEAN, YOU JUST WRITE MUSIC BECAUSE IT'S
22 SOMETHING YOU LOVE TO DO. IT'S A PASSION.
1
23
24
Q. I MEAN, YOU DIDN'T WAKE UP AND SAY, "I'M GOING
TO WRITE MUSIC SPECIFICALLY FOR SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET
l
25 GANG MEMBERS." YOU WANTED THE WORLD TO HEAR YOUR MUSIC, 1
26 CORRECT?
~
27 A. I WROTE A LOT OF SONGS, AND IT'S WHATEVER I J
28 FEEL THAT DAY OR IN THE STUDIO OR WHATEVER. I JUST

l
l
r
r. 2132
1 WRITE. I LOVE TO WRITE.
r 2 Q. AND IT'S ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW: WHERE YOU GREW
r 3
4
UP; YOU LIKE HIP-HOP; YOU LIKE LOW-RIDERS; YOU LIKE THE
CULTURE, RIGHT?
5 A. EXACTLY.
[ 6 Q. YOU HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE GANG MEMBERS.
r 7
8 A.
WHY DIDN'T YOU EVER JOIN THE GANG?
I WAS GOING TO SCHOOL A LOT. MY DAD WAS ALWAYS
r 9
10
PUSHING ME, YOU KNOW.
Q. YOU HAD PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES, THOUGH, TO

r 11 JOIN THE GANG IF YOU WANTED TO, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
PRETTY SURE I DID.
I MEAN, SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS WERE IN THAT GANG,
r 14
15
CORRECT?
A. AT ONE POINT, YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AND YOU RESISTED JOINING THAT GANG ALTOGETHER.
I WAS ALREADY HANGING OUT, YOU KNOW, HANGING
r 18 OUT.
r 19 Q. LET ME GO BACK A COUPLE PICTURES.
20 MR. SANDOVAL, DO YOU SEE PEOPLE'S 231?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE HOUSE IN THAT PICTURE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
WHAT HOUSE IS THAT?
r 25 A. THAT WAS WHERE THE STUDIO USED TO BE.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
THE ONE IN SPRING VALLEY?
CORRECT.
r 28 Q. YOU CAN SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ IN THIS PHOTO,
r
~
j
2133
l
1 CORRECT?
2 A. OH, YES. 1
3 Q. THE GUY IN THE MIDDLE WITH THE BLACK HAT ON?
1
4
6
A.
Q.
PHOTOGRAPH?
CORRECT.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE ANYONE ELSE IN THAT ,
7
8
A.
Q.
RANDY.
THE GUY RIGHT NEXT TO MR. DOMINGUEZ ON THE
l
9 LEFT? l
10 A. YES, CORRECT.
11 Q. AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE JONATHAN QUINTANILLA TO 1
12 HIS LEFT, THE GUY IN THE BACK WITH THE MUSTACHE?
13 THE COURT: GET DOWN AND WALK UP IF YOU WOULD l
14
15
LIKE TO.
THE WITNESS: OH, IN THE BACK, YEAH. I SEE
l
16
17
HIM.
BY MR. TROCHA:
1
18 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT PICTURE? l
19 A. IT'S KIND OF BLURRY. NOT REALLY.
20 Q. DO YOU SEE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING WITH THEIR l
21 HANDS IN THAT PICTURE, MR. SANDOVAL?
22 A. YEAH.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE ANY OF THOSE HAND SIGNS?
YEAH.
l
25 Q. WHAT ARE THEY? 1
26 A. JUST THROWING UP "SHELLTOWN."
27 Q. 38TH STREET, CORRECT? 1
28 A. EXACTLY.
l
l
r 2134
r 1 Q. NOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS PICTURE, PEOPLE'S
r 2 231, AND THEN WE LOOK AT YOUR PICTURE, PEOPLE'S 234,
r 3
4
OTHER THAN THE QUALITY OF YOURS BEING MUCH BETTER,
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IN TERMS OF GANG
r 5
6
SIGNS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
A. I MEAN, LIKE I SAID, I WAS JUST TRYING TO FIND
r 7
8
A GOOD PHOTO THAT DAY. I HAD A PHOTOSHOOT, AND I'M
TRYING TO GET A GOOD PICTURE FOR A CD OR A POSTER.
r 9
10
Q. RIGHT. I MEAN, BEING AN ASPIRING HIP-HOP
ARTIST, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO LIKE A COUNTRY-WESTERN
r 11 MOTIF OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO SOMETHING LIKE A
r 14
15
SCHMALTZY SOFT ROCK, YOU KNOW, FLUFFY PILLOWS EVERYWHERE
EITHER, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
DEPENDS ON WHAT KIND OF MOOD I'M IN.
BUT YOUR MUSIC IS ABOUT THE TOWN WHERE YOU GREW
r 18 UP, AND THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN IN THAT TOWN WHERE YOU
r 19
20
GREW UP.
A. I MEAN, I WRITE MUSIC ABOUT PAIN, I WRITE MUSIC
r 21
22
ABOUT LOVE, I WRITE MUSIC ABOUT STRUGGLE.
IT'S WHATEVER MOOD I'M IN.

LIKE I SAID,
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU WRITE ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW.
NOT EVERYTHING I KNOW.
r 25
26
Q. IN THIS PICTURE -- DO YOU KNOW IF THIS PICTURE
WAS TAKEN TO PROMOTE THE MUSIC INDUSTRY AT ALL?

r 27 A. NOT TO MY RECOLLECTION.
r 28 Q. YOU'VE BEEN IN THIS STUDIO, CORRECT?
r
2135
1
l
1 A. YES, I HAVE.
2 Q. SHOWING YOU NOW WHAT'S MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 229, l
3 THIS IS THE INSIDE OF THAT STUDIO, IS IT NOT,
l
4
5
6
MR. SANDOVAL?
GOOD PICTURE.
IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A VERY ,
7
8
Q. WHEN YOU WERE IN THERE, WAS THERE GRAFFITI LIKE
THIS INSIDE THE STUDIO?
l
9 A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER, NO. l
10 Q. WERE YOU THERE WHEN IT WAS FIRST PURCHASED OR
11 OBTAINED? l
12 A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER, NO.
13 Q. DO YOU SEE THE NAME "SPEEDY" WRITTEN ON THIS l
14
15
DOOR OR WHATEVER THIS THING IS?
A. I SEE "SPEEDY."
l
16 Q. RIGHT NEXT TO IT IS A BIG "S-T," RIGHT, IN GRAY
l
17 AND BLACK?
18 A. YEAH. l
19 Q. BASED UPON YOU GROWING UP IN THE TOWN, THAT'S
20 FROM SHELLTOWN, RIGHT? l
21 A. ONE COULD MAKE THAT ARGUMENT IF THEY'D LIKE.
22 Q. I MEAN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT COULD STAND FOR A
l
23
24
BUNCH OF THINGS, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS IS SHELLTOWN.
A. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT, YES.
1
25 Q. WHEN YOU WERE USING MYSPACE, MR. SANDOVAL, YOU l
26 SAID OTHER PEOPLE WERE RUNNING IT FOR YOU AS WELL,
27 CORRECT? l
28 A. UH-HUH.
l
l
r 2136
r 1 Q. IS THAT A "YES"?
r 2 A. OH, YEAH. SORRY.
r
3 Q. YOU ALSO WORKED WITH HOOD RAISED A LITTLE BIT
4 AS WELL, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
I'LL SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 238, THIRD PAGE.
r 7
8 A.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
JONATHAN.
r 9 Q. MR. QUINTANILLA, CORRECT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND DO WE SEE THE HOOD RAISED LOGO SURROUNDING
r 12
13
HIM?
A. YES, I DO.
r 14
15
Q. IS THIS CONSISTENT WITH HOOD RAISED PRODUCTIONS
OR HOOD RAISED ENTERTAINMENT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
FROM MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.
YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE HIS SITE FROM TIME TO TIME
r 18 WHEN YOU WERE PROMOTING YOUR MUSIC, CORRECT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I'M SURE I DID, YEAH.
SHOWING YOU NOW PAGE 1, DO YOU SEE PAGE 1 OF
r 21
22
THAT EXHIBIT, PEOPLE'S 238?
A. YES, I DO.
r 23
24
Q. YOU'VE BEEN ON MYSPACE BEFORE.
DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A PICTURE YOU COULD POST ON
r 25 MYSPACE, WITH A CAPTION AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE?
r 26
27
A. I DON'T KNOW.
NOWADAYS WITH THE COMPUTER.

PEOPLE GET REAL CREATIVE
r 28 Q. I MEAN, BACK IN THE DAY WHEN YOU WERE DOING
r
2137
l
l
1 SHOWS AND LOCAL SHOWS, YOU WOULD HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN
2 OF YOUR PERFORMANCES, RIGHT? l
3 A. OH, YEAH. I MEAN, EVERYONE HAS A CAMERA THESE
4 DAYS, EVEN ON THEIR CELL PHONE. l
5 Q. AND YOU CAN POP IT UP ON THE INTERNET ON YOUR
l
6
7
MYSPACE TO PROMOTE "YOUNG SICC IS GOING TO BE HERE,"
"YOUNG SICC WAS HERE. LOOK AT THESE CONCERTS."
, J
8 A. CORRECT.
9 Q. PEOPLE CAN POST COMMENTS TO THESE CONCERTS, l
10 "YEAH, I WAS THERE. IT WAS AWESOME," OR, "OH, SORRY I
11 MISSED IT," THINGS OF THAT NATURE. l
12 A. I'M SURE THEY CAN.
13 Q. DID YOU EVER POST ANYTHING FROM YOUR MUSIC SITE l
14
15
ON THIS MUSIC SITE?
A. I DIDN'T.
l
16 Q. WHY NOT?
l
17 A. I HAVEN'T BEEN ON MYSPACE FOREVER.
18 Q. BACK IN THE DAY, DID YOU EVER? l
19 A. PROBABLY AT ONE POINT, YEAH, I'M SURE I DID.
20 Q. LET ME GIVE YOU A CHANCE, JUST TO BE FAIR. I'M l
21 GOING TO SHOW YOU PAGE 2 OF THIS SAME EXHIBIT. WE SEE
22 FOUR POSTINGS.
l
23
24
ARE ANY OF THEM FROM ANY OF THE SITES THAT WERE
PROMOTING YOUR MUSIC THAT YOU CAN TELL?
l
25 A. FROM MY SITE? l
26 Q. YES.
27 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF, NO. l
28 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE ANY ON THERE FROM
l
l
r 2138
r 1 MR. DOMINGUEZ'S SITE?
r 2 A. I SEE A PICTURE OF HIM.
3 Q. SO THAT IS MR. DOMINGUEZ?

r 4 A. LOOKS LIKE HIM.
5
r 6
Q. IS THAT ALSO CONSISTENT WITH HIS MYSPACE PAGE,
WHICH IS DEFENSE II?
r 7
8
A. I DON'T KNOW.
MYSPACE PAGE?
HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS IS A
I DON'T KNOW.
r 9 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS?
10 A. I CAME ACROSS IT PROBABLY BEFORE, YEAH.
r 11 Q. WHEN YOU WERE COLLABORATING WITH HIM?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
AT ONE POINT, YEAH.
SO THAT WOULD BE HIS MYSPACE PAGE?
r 14
15
A.
MEAN --
I CAN'T TELL YOU IF IT'S EXACTLY HIS. I
r 16
17
Q. I UNDERSTAND IT'S BEEN A WHILE.
BUT THE PICTURES ON BOTH OF THESE EXHIBITS, II
r 18 AND 238, ARE IDENTICAL, ARE THEY NOT, MR. SANDOVAL?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
THEY LOOK IDENTICAL.
YOU NEVER FELT THE NEED TO POST PERSONAL
r 21
22
MESSAGES USING YOUR MUSIC WEBSITE?
A. SOMETIMES YES, SOMETIMES NO. I MEAN, THERE'S
r 23
24
SO MANY KIDS ON MYSPACE THESE DAYS THAT -- I MEAN,
EVERYONE'S CREATING A PROFILE AND A FAKE PROFILE AND,
r 25 YOU KNOW, TRYING TO LOOK AT SOMEONE ELSE'S PAGE AND
r 26
27
TRYING TO BE SOMEONE ELSE AND --
Q. WELL, HOW ABOUT THE PROFILES YOU WERE USING FOR
r 28 MUSIC? DID YOU EVER USE THOSE TO CONVEY PERSONAL
r
, I
2139
l
1 MESSAGES TO OTHER PEOPLE?
l
2
3
A. I WAS MORE WORRIED ABOUT JUST GETTING MY NAME
KNOWN OUT THERE. ,
4
5
6
Q. YOU ACTUALLY HAD AT LEAST THREE OR FOUR RUNNING
AT SOME TIME, CORRECT?
A. PROBABLY MORE THAN THAT. I MEAN, I WOULD GET
, J
8
CALLS FROM PEOPLE AND WHO SAY, "HEY, I JUST" -- AND I'M,
"WHO MADE THAT MYSPACE PAGE? I DIDN'T."
l
9 Q. FAN SITES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, RIGHT? l
10 A. THERE'S SO MANY THINGS NOWADAYS.
11 Q. YOU'VE BEEN OUT OF THE MUSIC BUSINESS FOR AT l
12 LEAST FIVE YEARS, RIGHT?
13 A. 2007, I BELIEVE, WAS THE LAST TIME I DROPPED AN l
14
15
ALBUM.
Q. SO ABOUT THREE OR FOUR YEARS.
l
16
17
A. UH-HUH.
l
Q. DO YOU STILL WRITE MUSIC?
18 A. I DO NOW, YEAH. l
19 Q. YOU STILL WANT TO PURSUE IT?
20 A. IN A DIFFERENT WAY NOW. I'VE BEEN DOING A LOT l
21 OF DIFFERENT THINGS NOW WITH MY LIFE.
22 Q. PLUMBING, THOUGH, PAYS THE BILLS A LITTLE
l
23
24
BETTER?
A. YES, IT DOES FOR NOW WITH THE RECESSION.
l
25 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MR. SANDOVAL. I HAVE 1
26 NOTHING FURTHER.
28 REDIRECT.
l
l
r 2140
r 2
3 234.
CAN I SEE THE ALBUM COVER AGAIN?
THANK YOU.
I THINK IT'S
rl
r 5
6
Q. YOU SAID THIS IS TO PROMOTE AN ALBUM, RIGHT,
r 7
8
MR. SANDOVAL?
A. YEAH.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
IT MIGHT BE THE COVER OF AN ALBUM?
IT DIDN'T MAKE THE CUT.
r 11 Q. IT DIDN'T MAKE THE CUT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
HAD A CHANCE, THOUGH.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
OH, MAN, I'M SURE IT DID.
THIS GUY BACK HERE IS DOING SOMETHING WITH HIS
r 16
17
HANDS.
A.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT HE'S DOING?
LOOKS LIKE HE'S THROWING SOMETHING UP.
r 18 Q. IS IT THIS, HOLDING MY INDEX FINGER AND MY
r 19
20
MIDDLE FINGER TO MY RIGHT IN A "V" SHAPE WITH THE POINT
OF THE "V" IS LEFT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THAT'S WHAT HE'S DOING?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT THAT IS?
r 25 A. SHELLTOWN.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
IS IT A GANG SIGN?
YEAH, LOOKS LIKE IT, YEAH.
r 28 Q. SO THERE IS A GANG. PEOPLE ARE THROWING GANG
r
2141
l
1
2
SIGNS UP IN THIS PICTURE.
A. YEAH.
, I
,
J
3 Q. FOR AN ALBUM COVER FOR A RECORD, RIGHT?

4 A. YEAH, YOU CAN MAKE. THAT ARGUMENT. J
5 Q. YOU'VE KNOWN MR. DOMINGUEZ FOR 20 YEARS, RIGHT?
6 A. ROUGHLY, YEAH.
1
7
8
Q.
QUESTIONS.
YOU KNOW NOW, BECAUSE MR. TROCHA ASKED YOU SOME
l
9 IF YOU KNEW THAT IN 2004 MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS WITH
l
10 A FRIEND AND THEY WERE IN A 7-ELEVEN, HIS FRIEND STARTED
11 A FIGHT AND MR. DOMINGUEZ GOT INVOLVED AND ENDED UP l
12 BEING IN THAT FIGHT, WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR OPINION OF
13 HIM? l
14 A. NOT REALLY.
l
16
17
THE COURT:
FURTHER CROSS?
THANK YOU.
l
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. IS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT THAT SITUATION l
21 WOULD BE A CRIME?
22 A. WE DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT OF EXACTLY WHAT l
23
24
HAPPENED.
Q.
I MEAN, I WASN'T THERE.
BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS
l
25 CONVICTED OF A FELONY COUNT OF ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY
l
26 WEAPON, CORRECT?
27 A. FROM WHAT YOU TOLD ME. l
28 Q. WHICH IS A CRIME.
l
,
r 2142
r 1 A. YOU ALSO SAID THAT HIS FRIEND THREW THE FIRST
r 2 PUNCH.
r 3
4
Q. WE ALSO DIDN'T TALK ABOUT WHAT HE WAS CONVICTED
OF, MR. SANDOVAL, BUT WE DON'T NEED TO GET INTO THAT.
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
ASK THE QUESTION,
r 7
8
PLEASE.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 9 Q. MY LAST QUESTION IS: WHY DIDN'T YOU USE THAT
r 10
11
PICTURE FOR A COVER OF AN ALBUM?
A. I DON'T KNOW. YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE.
r 12
13
Q. DO YOU WANT PEOPLE THROWING UP GANG SIGNS ON
THE COVER OF YOUR CD?
r 14
15
A. DOESN'T REALLY MATTER, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.
IF IT'S A GOOD PICTURE, IT'S A GOOD PICTURE.
r 16
17 YOUR HONOR.
MR. TROCHA: FAIR ENOUGH. NOTHING FURTHER,
r 18 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
r 19
20
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO, THANK YOU.
MR. SANDOVAL, THANK YOU FOR COMING
r 21
22
TO COURT. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE EXCUSED.
PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON IN COURT
r 23
24
OR WHAT YOU WERE ASKED WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES,
UNLESS THEY'RE INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER.
r 25 ALL RIGHT?
r 26
27
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
OKAY.
THANK YOU.
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
r
2143
l
l J
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE DEFENSE CALLS VICTOR

2 DOMINGUEZ. l
4 THE COURT: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, SIR. l
5 FACE THE CLERK. THANK YOU.
l
7
8
l
9 HELP YOU GOD? l
13 THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE, SIR, IF YOU WOULD, l
14
15
PLEASE. ARE YOU ABLE TO SIT IN THIS CHAIR, OR WOULD YOU
FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE SITTING IN ANOTHER CHAIR?
l
16 THE WITNESS: I'M OKAY.
l
17 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU.
18 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU, TOO. l
21
22
THE WITNESS:
D-0-M-I-N-G-U-E-Z.
VICTOR DOMINGUEZ,
1
23
24
l
25 VICTOR DOMINGUEZ, l
26 DEFENSE WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED
27 AS FOLLOWS: l
28 Ill
l
l
r 2144
r
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
4 A. HI, HOW ARE YOU?
r 5
6
Q.
A.
MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU JUST HAD SURGERY, RIGHT?
CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q.
ME KNOW.
IF YOU NEED A BREAK, YOU'RE UNCOMFORTABLE, LET
OKAY?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
I'M OKAY. THANK YOU.
MR. DOMINGUEZ, DO YOU REMEMBER A PERIOD OF TIME
r 11 APPROXIMATELY TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO WHEN YOU HAD SOME
r 12
13
EVENT HAPPEN WITH YOUR BROTHER?
A. YES. PERTAINING TO WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR, YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
ALL MY LIFE.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHO'S THAT?
MY BROTHER RIGHT THERE.
r 18 Q. AND HE'S YOUR BROTHER?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES, SIR.
CAN YOU POINT OUT AN ARTICLE OF CLOTHING HE'S
r 21
22
WEARING.
A. THAT BLUE TIE.
r 23
24
THE COURT: HE HAS POINTED TO MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
HE'S YOUR BROTHER?
YES, SIR.
r 28 Q. ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, WHAT HAPPENED?
r
2145
l
l
1 A. HE GAVE ME A PHONE CALL, ASKED ME IF I COULD
2 COME PICK HIM UP, AND I WENT AND PICKED HIM UP. l
3 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE YEAR AND THE MONTH?
4 A. IT WAS IN SEPTEMBER 2008. l
5 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
6 A. BECAUSE THAT'S THE MONTH AND YEAR THAT I LOST
l
7
8
MY BUSINESS.
Q. WHAT BUSINESS?
1
9 A. CHUEY'S RESTAURANT, BAR AND CANTINA. l
10 Q. WHERE IS THAT LOCATED?
11 A. IT WAS IN LOGAN HEIGHTS, BARRIO LOGAN. l
12 Q. IT WAS THAT SAME MONTH?
13 A. YES. l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T REMEMBER A SPECIFIC DATE?
I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFIC DATE, BUT IT
l
16 WAS BECAUSE THAT WAS THE LAST MONTH WE WERE OPEN,
l
17 so
18 Q. WHAT TIME OF DAY OR NIGHT DID HE CALL YOU? l
19 A. PROBABLY -- I'M NOT SURE. I KNOW IT WAS AFTER
20 8:00, BECAUSE I HAD ALREADY CLOSED OUT THE CASH l
21 REGISTERS.
22 Q. AND BASED ON THAT PHONE CALL, WHAT DID YOU DO?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I PICKED HIM UP.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU AN EXHIBIT.
l
25 DO YOU SEE THIS MAP HERE, MR. DOMINGUEZ? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHAT IS THIS GREEN AREA THAT I'M POINTING TO l
28 RIGHT HERE?
l
l
r 2146
r 1 A. THAT'S THE PARK.
r 2 Q. WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE PARK?
r
3 A. MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK.
4 Q. FOR THE RECORD, I'M IDENTIFYING THE
r 5
6
SEMI-TRIANGLE-SHAPED PARK IN WHAT WOULD BE THE NORTHWEST
QUADRANT OF PEOPLE'S 265.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE RECORD WILL SO REFLECT.
r 9
10
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHERE YOU ENDED UP PICKING UP
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r
f' 11 A. YES. I PICKED HIM UP ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE
r 12
13
HOME DEPOT.
Q. AND THE HOME DEPOT IS -- WHAT'S THE
r 14
15
CROSS-STREET?
A. IT WOULD BE -- WELL, IT'S ON IMPERIAL. I
~ 16 PICKED HIM UP ON THE BACK SIDE OF IT, THE BACK
l
17 ENTRANCE.
r 18 Q. THIS BEING IMPERIAL RIGHT HERE, MR. DOMINGUEZ,
r 19
20
THIS IS THE FRONT OF HOME DEPOT, RIGHT?
A. UH-HUH.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WOULD THE BACK SIDE BE --
RIGHT THERE. OCEAN VIEW.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
OCEAN VIEW?
UH-HUH.
r 25 THE COURT: IS THAT A "YES, " SIR?
r 26
27
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES. SORRY, SORRY.
NO PROBLEM.
r 28 Ill
r
2147
l
l
1
~
2 Q. ON OCEAN VIEW -- I'LL TRY TO HELP YOU HERE, J
3 BECAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE TO WALK DOWN -- WOULD
4 IT BE THIS AREA WHERE MARKETPLACE MEETS OCEAN VIEW? l
5 A. KIND OF. THAT'S A HORRIBLE MAP, BUT, YES.
6 Q. SOMEWHERE AROUND THIS AREA?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
AND IT'S A PLAZA THERE. IT'S NOT JUST A HOME
l
l
,
9 DEPOT.
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. AFTER YOU PICKED HIM UP OR WHEN YOU PICKED HIM 1
12 UP, WHO WAS WITH HIM?

13 A. SOME YOUNG LADY. l
14 Q. HAD YOU SEEN HER BEFORE?
l
15
16
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU KNOW WHO MR. DOMINGUEZ'S WIFE IS?
,
1
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHO IS SHE? l
19 A. NATALIE.
20 Q. NATALIE DOMINGUEZ? l
21 A. YES, SIR.
22 Q. THIS YOUNG LADY WAS NOT --
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NOT HER.
WHEN YOU PICKED HIM UP, WHAT DID MR. DOMINGUEZ
l
25 ASK YOU TO DO? l
26 A. TO GIVE HIM A RIDE TO HIS HOUSE IN SPRING
27 VALLEY. l
28 Q. AND DID YOU AGREE TO IT?
l
l
r 2148
r 1 A. YEAH.
r 2 Q. HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT DOING THIS FOR HIM?
r 3
4
A.
ABOUT THAT.
HE'S MY BROTHER. THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DID YOU ASK HIM ABOUT THE GIRL?
NOPE.
r 7
8
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, DID YOU END UP DRIVING HIM TO
SPRING VALLEY?
r 9 A. YES, SIR.
r 10
11
Q. WHEN YOU PICKED HIM UP, WHAT DID HE LOOK LIKE?
HOW WAS HE DRESSED?
r 12
13
A.
WAS NORMAL.
I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT HE WAS WEARING, BUT IT
I MEAN
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT HIS HAIR AND FACIAL --
HE HAD HIS HEAD SHAVED THEN, AND HE HAD HIS
r 16
17
NORMAL MUSTACHE AND HIS LITTLE BRISTLE THAT HE USED TO
HAVE.
r 18 Q. GOATEE?
r 19
20
A. UH-HUH.
THE COURT: "YES"?
r 21
22
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES, SIR.
NO PROBLEM.
SORRY.
r 23
24
Q. WHEN YOU SAY SHAVED, MR. DOMINGUEZ --
r 25
26
A.
Q.
HE HAD NO HAIR.
NOT A BUZZ CUT?

r 27 A. LIKE HE NORMALLY HAD IT, JUST ALMOST COMPLETELY
r 28 OFF.
r
2149
l
Q. OKAY. AND OUTSIDE OF HIS GOATEE, WAS HE
l
1
2 CLEAN-SHAVEN? l
3 A. FOR THE MOST PART.
l
4
5
6
Q.
A.
Q.
AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT HE WAS WEARING?
I DON'T, SIR.
WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU DROPPED HIM OFF?
, j
8
A. HE GOT OUT, JUST SAID, "I'LL TALK TO YOU LATER
AND SEE YOU LATER," AND I WENT AND I LEFT.
l
9 Q. DID YOU EVER TALK TO HIM ABOUT THIS AGAIN? l
10 A. NO, NOT PERTAINING -- I MEAN, I DIDN'T KNOW
11 ANYTHING. I JUST THOUGHT I HAD PICKED HIM AND THE GIRL l
12 UP AND TOOK HIM HOME.
13 Q. WHEN YOU PICKED HIM UP, WHAT DID HIS HANDS LOOK l
14
15
LIKE?
A.
DID THEY HAVE ANY BLOOD ON THEM?
NO.
l
16 Q.
A.
DID HE HAVE ANY BLOOD ON HIS SHIRT OR PANTS?
l
17 NO.
18 Q. BLOOD ON HIS FACE? l
19 DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD AT ALL, SIR?
20 A. NO. l
21 Q. WHAT KIND OF MOOD WAS HE IN?
22 A. NORMAL.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WAS HE SHOOKEN UP?
I WOULDN'T SAY SHOOKEN UP. I MEAN, MAYBE A
l
25 LITTLE TIRED. l
26 Q. HE SEEMED TIRED?
27 A. UH-HUH. l
28 Q. WAS IT DARK OUT OR LIGHT OUT?
l
l
r 2150
r 1 A. IT WAS DARK.
r 3
4
r 5
6 BY MR. TROCHA:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 7
8 TIME
Q. THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME -- IN FACT, THE ONLY
YOUR BROTHER EVER CALLED YOU FOR A RIDE IN THE
r 9
10
LAST THREE YEARS, RIGHT?
A. LAST THREE YEARS, YES, SIR.
r 11 Q. DID YOU EVER ASK HIM WHY?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
DID YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
IS IT BECAUSE HE WAS WITH A WOMAN YOU HAD NEVER
r 16
17
SEEN BEFORE?
A. PRETTY MUCH.
r 18 Q. WAS HE ACTING LIKE HE JUST CAME FROM A PLACE
r 19
20
WHERE SOMEBODY GOT SHOT AND KILLED?
A. I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY COME FROM A PLACE THEY
r 21
22
GOT SHOT AND KILLED, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ACT.
Q. IF YOU WERE HANGING AROUND YOUR RESTAURANT,
r 23
24
LET'S SAY IT GOT ROBBED AT GUNPOINT, YOU WOULD NOT BE
SHAKEN UP AND TIRED?
r 25 A. PROBABLY.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
YOU WOULD BE TIRED?
OH, NO, NO.
r 28 Q. YOU WOULD BE JUST THE OPPOSITE OF THAT.
r
2151
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. YOU WOULD BE WIRED. l
3 A. FOR THE MOST PART.
4 Q. DID YOU INSPECT YOUR BROTHER'S APPEARANCE, OR l
5 WAS THIS MORE JUST KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD, GET HIM
6 TO SPRING VALLEY AND BE DONE WITH THIS?
l
7
8
A. WELL, I MEAN, I LOOKED AT HIM WHEN HE GOT IN.
I MEAN, I DIDN'T FRISK HIM.
l
9 Q. RIGHT. YOU WEREN'T TAKING NOTES.
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. WAS HE DRUNK? l
12 A. I COULDN'T TELL YOU.
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NO.
MR. DOMINGUEZ, THANK YOU FOR COMING
l
16 TO COURT, SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON'T TALK
l
17 ABOUT WHAT WENT ON IN COURT OR THE QUESTIONS YOU WERE
18 ASKED WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES, EXCEPT l
19 INVESTIGATORS OR, OF COURSE, THE LAWYERS. DO YOU
20 UNDERSTAND THAT? l
22 THE COURT: YOU ARE EXCUSED, AND THANK YOU
l
23
24
AGAIN, SIR.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
l
25 THE COURT: GOOD DAY. l
26 THE WITNESS: GOOD DAY, SIR.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DEFENSE IS GOING TO CALL l
28 DIANA BANUELOS.
l
l
r 2152
r 2 MA'AM, PLEASE FACE THE CLERK HERE AND RAISE
r 3
4
YOUR RIGHT HAND.
r 5
6
r 7
8
HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: YES.
r 9 THE CLERK: THANK YOU. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT AT
r 10
11
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: RIGHT UP HERE, PLEASE. GOOD
r 12
13
AFTERNOON.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 14
15
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
B-A-N-U-E-L-0-S.
IT'S DIANA BANUELOS,
r 19
20
DIANA BANUELOS,
r 21
22
AS FOLLOWS:
r 23
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 25 Q.
A.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. BANUELOS.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
r
26
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r- 28 A. YES.
l
r
2153
l
l
2 A. I DATED HIM. l
3 Q. I'M TALKING ABOUT FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
l
4
6
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
CAN YOU POINT -- IS HE IN COURT TODAY?
YES.
,
l
,
7 Q. CAN YOU POINT TO HIM AND --
8 A. HE'S ON MY LEFT-HAND SIDE.
9 Q. WHAT IS HE WEARING?
10 A. A BLUE SUIT.
11 THE COURT: INDICATING MR. DOMINGUEZ. l
14
15 HIM?
Q. YOU SAID YOU HAD A DATING RELATIONSHIP WITH
l
16 A. YES.
l
18 A. THIS WAS ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO. l
19 Q. UNTIL WHEN?
20 A. I'M NOT SURE. l
21 Q. WAS IT A LONG TIME?
22 A. IT WAS LIKE ABOUT A YEAR.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
COULD IT HAVE BEEN MORE THAN A YEAR?
MAYBE.
l
25 Q. AT THE TIME, WHAT DID YOU KNOW HIM AS, WHAT 1
26 NAME?
27 A. JOSE AND CHUNKY. l
28 Q. AT THE TIME YOU WERE DATING MR. DOMINGUEZ, DID
l
l
r 2154
r 1 YOU KNOW HE WAS MARRIED?
r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHEN DID YOU FIND OUT?
A LITTLE LATER, AFTER THE SHOOTING.
r 5
6
Q.
THAT.
WE'LL GET TO THAT. ACTUALLY, LET'S GET TO
r 7
8 A.
WHAT SHOOTING ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
THE ONE THAT HAPPENED AT THE PARK WHEN THEY
r 9 TOOK MY CAR.
r 10
11
Q. OKAY.
VICTIM'S NAME?
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT -- DO YOU KNOW THE
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
WHEN THIS SHOOTING HAPPENED, WHAT TIME PERIOD
r 14
15
WAS THIS ABOUT?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
IT WAS ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO?
OH, YEAH. IT WAS THREE.
r 18 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT MONTH IT WAS?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE SPECIFICALLY.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
ON THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, WHAT WERE YOUR
r 23
24
PLANS WITH REGARD TO MR. DOMINGUEZ -- ACTUALLY, ON THE
DAY OF THE SHOOTING?
r 25 A. WE WERE GOING TO GO OUT SOMEWHERE.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DID YOU HAVE SPECIFIC PLANS?
NO.
r 28 Q. WITH REGARD TO YOUR PLANS, WHAT DID YOU DO?
r
2155
1
1 A. I PICKED HIM UP -- WELL, I SHOWED UP TO THE
l
l
2
3
4
PARK.
Q.
YOU DO?
BEFORE YOU SHOWED UP, DURING THE DAY WHAT DID
,
5 A. I WAS DRINKING AT MY HOUSE.
6 Q. WHO WERE YOU DRINKING WITH?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
MY SISTER.
AND WITH REGARD TO YOUR PLANS WITH
l
9 MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHAT DID YOU DO TO TRY AND FACILITATE l
10 THOSE PLANS?
11 A. I CALLED HIM A FEW TIMES. l
12 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES YOU CALLED HIM?
13 A. NO, BUT IT WAS A FEW TIMES. l
14
15
Q. WHAT'S THE TIME PERIOD DURING THE DAY THAT YOU
THINK YOU WERE AT YOUR HOUSE HANGING OUT WITH -- YOU
l
l
,
16 SAID YOUR SISTER, RIGHT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT IS HER NAME?
19 A. KARINA.
20 Q. AND THE TIME PERIOD WE WERE TALKING ABOUT? l
21 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS LIKE FROM 1:00 TO 8:00.
22 Q. IS THAT AN APPROXIMATION?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.
SO BASICALLY ALL DAY?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHEN YOU CALLED HIM, WHAT HAPPENED?
27 A. HE WASN'T PICKING UP. l
28 Q. THIS IS BETWEEN 1:00 AND 8:00?
l
l
r 2156
r 1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. AT ABOUT 8:00, WHAT HAPPENED THEN?
r
3 A. HE GAVE ME A CALL.
4 Q. HE CALLED YOU?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
r 7
8
A. HE TOLD ME HE WAS PRETTY DRUNK AND, IF I CAN,
COME AND PICK HIM UP.
r 9 Q. WHERE DID HE SAY HE WANTED YOU TO PICK HIM UP?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
AT THE PARK.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT PARK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THE OCEAN VIEW PARK.
AND BASED ON YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HIM, WHAT
r 14
15
DID YOU DO?
A. I TOLD HIM YES, AND I WENT TO GO PICK HIM UP.
r 16
17
Q. WITHOUT TELLING ME THE ADDRESS, HOW CLOSE TO
THE PARK DO YOU LIVE?
r 18 A. NOT REALLY SURE.
r 19
20
Q. DRIVE-WISE, IF YOU HAD TO TIME IT, HOW LONG
WOULD IT TAKE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
LIKE 10 MINUTES -- 5, 10 MINUTES.
WAS THERE ANYBODY WITH YOU WHEN YOU DROVE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT CAR DID YOU DRIVE?
r 25 A. I HAD A CAMRY, TOYOTA, 2006.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT WAS REGISTERED TO?
TO MY MOTHER.
r
(
r
2157
l
A. GLORIA JIMENEZ.
l
1
2 Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, WHERE DID YOU PARK? l
3 A. I PARKED, LIKE, BY THE SIDEWALK, LIKE NEXT TO,
4 LIKE, THE DIRT ALLEY. l
5
6
Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU AN EXHIBIT, MS. BANUELOS.
THIS IS PROSECUTION 2.
l
l
,
7 DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THIS
8 PHOTOGRAPH?
9 A. YES. J
10 Q. WHAT IS THIS BROWN STRIP HERE THAT I'M

11 REFERRING TO IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PHOTO WITH MY PEN? l
12 A. THAT'S THE DIRT ALLEY.
13 Q. AND WHAT'S THIS GRAY LINE THAT I'M REFERRING TO l
14
15
WITH MY PEN?
A. THE STREET.
l
16 Q. WITH REGARD TO THOSE TWO THINGS THAT I'VE JUST
l
17 INDICATED, WHERE DID YOU PARK? AND FEEL FREE TO COME
18 DOWN OFF THE WITNESS STAND AND POINT TO IT, IF YOU l
19 WOULD.
20 A. I PARKED ABOUT HERE. l
21 Q. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE WITNESS PARKED
22 SOMEWHERE WHERE THE ALLEY MEETS FRANKLIN.
l
23
24
THE COURT: SHOW US AGAIN, PLEASE, MA'AM.
YOUR FINGER ON THE AREA WHERE YOU PARKED, REALIZING IT
PUT
l
25 MIGHT BE A BIGGER CIRCLE. l
26 THE WITNESS: RIGHT HERE.
l
27
28
THE COURT:
WILL SO REFLECT.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. THE RECORD
, J
l
r 2158
r 1 JUROR NO. 9: YOUR HONOR, WE COULDN'T SEE IT.
r 2 THE COURT: MS. BANUELOS, ONE MORE TIME. DO IT
r 3
4
WITH YOUR BACK TO ME AND SO YOU'RE SHOWING IT TO THE
JURY.
r 5
6
JUROR NO.
9: THANK YOU.
r 7
8
Q. ONCE YOU PARKED AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ALLEY,
WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
r 9 A. I GAVE HIM A CALL.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHO?
MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU CALLED HIM?
AND I TOLD HIM I WAS THERE, SO I STARTED
r 14
15
WALKING UP.
Q. YOU STARTED WALKING UP THE ALLEY, AND WHAT DID
r 16
17
HE DO?
A. HE MET ME HALFWAY.
r 18 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU MET HIM?
r 19
20
A. I WAS A LITTLE PISSED OFF, SO I STARTED GOING
OFF ON HIM.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE YOU PISSED OFF ABOUT?
BECAUSE WE WERE SUPPOSED TO MEET UP EARLIER
r 23
24
WITH EACH OTHER THAT DAY.
Q. AND BASED ON THAT, WHEN YOU SAID "GOING OFF ON
r 25
26
HIM," WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A. JUST, LIKE, YELLING AT HIM, ARGUING WITH HIM.
r 27 Q. WHEN YOU SAY "YELLING," WERE YOU JUST TALKING
r 28 LOUDLY?
r
2159
l
A. SOMEWHAT, YES.
1
1
2 Q. DID YOU KNOW IF -- DID YOU SEE IF ANYONE ELSE l

3 WAS THERE AT THE PARK?
4 A. I JUST RECOGNIZED -- NO. l
5 Q. I MEAN, NOT NECESSARILY PEOPLE YOU RECOGNIZED,
6 BUT WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE PARK?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY?
l
9 A. A FEW. 1
10 Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A NUMBER?
11 A. I BELIEVE LIKE 20 OR MORE. l
12 Q. 20 OR MORE?
13 A. UH-HUH. l
14
15
Q.
A.
COULD IT HAVE BEEN 30?
MIGHT HAVE, YES.
l
16 Q. THAT NIGHT, WITH REGARD TO MR. DOMINGUEZ'S
l
17 APPEARANCE, WHAT DID HIS HAIR LOOK LIKE?
18 A. I BELIEVE BALD. l
19 Q. AND FACIAL HAIR?
20 A. HE MIGHT HAVE HAD LIKE A GOATEE OR SOMETHING. l
Q. A GOATEE AND A MUSTACHE OR JUST A GOATEE?
21
22 A. PROBABLY JUST A GOATEE.

l
23
24
Q.
A.
AND DO YOU KNOW HOW OLD HE WAS AT THE TIME?
I BELIEVE HE WAS LIKE 30.
l
25 Q. WHEN YOU MET HIM HALFWAY BETWEEN AT THE ALLEY, l
26 DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE UP THE ALLEY?
27 A. I SEEN CHRISTIAN. l
28 Q. CHRISTIAN?
l
l
r 2160
r 1 A. CHRISTIAN -- CHRISTIAN --
r 2 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW HIS LAST NAME?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
HOW WELL DO YOU KNOW HIM?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
A LITTLE.
AT THE TIME, HOW WELL DID YOU KNOW HIM?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I JUST KNEW HIM -- I SEEN HIM A FEW TIMES.
DID THE ARGUMENT MOVE ANYWHERE ELSE BESIDES
r 9 WHERE YOU WERE INITIALLY?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
WE STARTED WALKING DOWN AND WE GOT INTO MY CAR.
YOU GOT IN THE CAR?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
UH-HUH.
HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE CAR?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
WE WERE IN THE CAR FOR A WHILE.
DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING
r 16
17
TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, ABOUT HIS BREATH?
A. HE WAS INTOXICATED.
r 18 Q. HE WAS DRUNK?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
MS. BANUELOS
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
-- DO YOU HAVE A PRESCRIPTION FOR EYEGLASSES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
IS IT A STRONG PRESCRIPTION?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
NOT REALLY SURE.
ARE YOU WEARING THEM TODAY?
r 27 A. NO.
r 28 Q. DO YOU USUALLY WEAR THEM?
r
2161
l
1 A. WELL, I NEED THEM WHEN IT'S DARK AND TO DRIVE,
l
2 YEAH, I DO. l
3 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU HAD THE PRESCRIPTION?
4 A. FOR -- SINCE I GOT IT AT HIGH SCHOOL. l
5 Q. WERE YOU WEARING THEM THAT NIGHT?
6 A. NO.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
JUST DON'T LIKE WEARING THEM.
l
9 Q. IS IT FOR REASONS OF VANITY, BECAUSE YOU DON'T l
10 LIKE THE WAY IT MAKES YOU LOOK?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. WHEN YOU WERE IN THE CAR, DID THE CONVERSATION
13 MOVE TO ANOTHER LOCATION AGAIN? l
14
15
A.
Q.
WE STEPPED OUT THE CAR, YES, WE DID.
HOW.LONG WERE YOU IN THE CAR BEFORE YOU STEPPED
l
16 OUT? 1
J
17 A. FOR A WHILE.
18 Q. LIKE 20 MINUTES? l
19 A. IT WAS FOR A WHILE.
20 Q. AND THEN WHERE WERE YOU ARGUING WHEN YOU l
21 STEPPED OUT OF THE VEHICLE?
22 A. WE WERE ARGUING ON THE SIDEWALK RIGHT NEXT DOOR
1
23
24
TO THE PASSENGER SEAT.
Q. DID YOU HAVE YOUR PURSE ON YOU?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. WHERE WAS IT?
27 A. IT WAS IN THE CAR. l
28 Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU WERE ARGUING WITH
l
l
r 2162
r 1 MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHAT, IF ANYTHING, COULD YOU SEE IN THE
r 2 MIDDLE OF THE PARK?

3 ON PROSECUTION 2, MS. BANUELOS, CAN YOU SEE
r 4 THIS RED CIRCLE
5 A. YES.
r 6 Q. WE PREVIOUSLY MARKED?
r 7
8
IF YOU LOOKED UP INTO THAT AREA, WHAT WOULD YOU
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
I WAS ABLE TO SEE LITTLE BLACK DOTS.
DID YOU SEE ANY PEOPLE UP THERE?
r 11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT WERE THEY DOING?
r 13 A. THEY WERE -- THEY WERE DRINKING.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WAS ANYBODY FIGHTING?
THEY COULD HAVE.
r 16
17
Q. WHEN YOU WERE STANDING AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
ALLEY, WHAT HAPPENED THAT KIND OF CHANGED THINGS?
r 18 A. ME AND MR. DOMINGUEZ WERE TALKING, AND WE HEARD
r 19
20
SHOOTING AND THEN WE RAN.
Q. DID YOU RUN AS SOON AS YOU HEARD THE SHOTS OR
r 21
22
DID YOU WAIT?
A. WE RAN AS SOON AS WE HEARD THE GUNSHOTS.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHICH DIRECTION DID YOU RUN?
WE RAN DOWN FRANKLIN.
r 25 Q. DOWN FRANKLIN WHICH DIRECTION ON EXHIBIT 2?

26 WOULD IT BE, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE EXHIBIT, LEFT OR
r 27 WOULD IT BE RIGHT?
28 A. LEFT.
r
r
2163
l
1 Q. AND THEN WHERE DID YOU RUN FROM THERE?
1
2 A. I BELIEVE WE RAN -- MADE ANOTHER LEFT. l
3 Q. AND THAT WOULD BE, ON PROSECUTION 2, WHERE THE
4 ROAD FORKS THERE -- RIGHT? -- ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE l
5 EXHIBIT?
6 A. YES.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
AND YOU WENT TO THE LEFT?
YES.
l
9 Q. HOW FAR DID YOU GET BEFORE THE GUNSHOTS l
10 STOPPED?
11 A. I'M NOT SURE. WE ENDED UP AT HOME DEPOT, l
12 THOUGH.
13 Q. WAS IT IN FRONT OF HOME DEPOT OR BEHIND HOME l
14 DEPOT?
15 A. IT WAS BEHIND HOME DEPOT.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE CROSS-STREET?
NO.
l
18 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THAT AREA? 1
19 A. NO.
20 Q. ONCE YOU GOT TO HOME DEPOT, WHAT DID JOSE DO? l
21 A. HE WAS CALLING SOMEONE AND THEY PICKED US UP.
22 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED SHORTLY THEREAFTER?
l
23
24
A.
VALLEY.
WE GOT PICKED UP AND GOT DROPPED OFF IN SPRING
l
25 Q. HOW OLD WAS THE PERSON WHO PICKED YOU UP? l
26 A. NOT SURE.
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, AT THIS TIME I'M l
28 GOING TO BRING IN VICTOR DOMINGUEZ.
l
l
r 2164
r 2
3
(MR. VICTOR DOMINGUEZ ENTERS THE COURTROOM.)
THE COURT: MR. DOMINGUEZ, THANK YOU. YOU MAY

[ 4 STAND RIGHT THERE. THANK YOU, SIR.
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
r 7
8
Q. MS. BANUELOS, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS PERSON
r 9 STANDING TO MY LEFT WITH THE GOATEE AND THE WHITE SHIRT?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO IS THAT PERSON?
r 12
13
A. THAT WAS THE GENTLEMAN THAT PICKED US UP.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU.
r 14
15
THE COURT:
SIR, THANK YOU.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
BEFORE THAT NIGHT, HAD YOU MET HIM?
NO.
r 18 Q. WHEN YOU WERE RIDING FROM THE HOME DEPOT TO
r 19
20
SPRING VALLEY, DID YOU TALK TO THAT GENTLEMAN?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DID MR. DOMINGUEZ TALK TO HIM?
I BELIEVE SO.
r 23
24
Q.
HAPPENED?
WERE THEY TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING THAT JUST
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT?
I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION.
r 28 Q. SO SINCE YOU WERE PICKED UP BY MR. DOMINGUEZ,
r
2165
1
THE OTHER DOMINGUEZ, VICTOR, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CAR?
l
1
2 A. MY CAR WAS TAKEN. l
3 Q. HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?
4 A. BECAUSE THE NEXT DAY MR. DOMINGUEZ DROVE ME TO l
5 PICK IT UP AND IT WASN'T THERE.
6 Q. WHAT DID YOU DRIVE IN WHEN YOU WENT TO GO PICK
l
7
8
IT UP?
A. HIS HONDA.
l
l
9
10
11
12
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
WHERE WAS HIS HONDA?
IN SPRING VALLEY.
IT HAD ALREADY BEEN THERE?
I BELIEVE SO, YES.
,
13 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU FOUND OUT YOUR CAR WAS l
14
15
NOT THERE ANYMORE?
A. I CALLED AND TRIED TO GET MY CAR BACK.
1
l
,
16 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT DAY YOU CALLED?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. WAS IT THE NEXT DAY?
19 A. I BELIEVE SO.
20 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN A COUPLE DAYS LATER? l
21 A. MAYBE.
22 Q. WHAT IS YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION?
l J
23
24
A.
Q.
I THINK IT WAS THE NEXT DAY.
WHEN YOU CALLED THE POLICE, WHAT DID THEY SAY
l
25 TO YOU? l
26 A. THEY TOLD ME IF I WAS THERE AND I LIED, AND I
27 TOLD THEM I WASN'T THERE. l
28 Q. WHY DID YOU TELL THEM YOU WEREN'T THERE?
l
l
r 2166
r 1 A. JUST BECAUSE I WAS FRIGHTENED, I WAS SCARED.
r 2 Q. WHY WERE YOU SCARED?
r 3
4
A.
ANYTHING.
BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED WITH
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO BE INVOLVED?
BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO BE INVOLVED WITH THAT
r 7
8
TYPE OF SITUATION.
Q. DID YOU CONTINUE TO DATE MR. DOMINGUEZ AFTER
r 9
10
THIS HAPPENED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 11 Q. WITH REGARD TO GETTING YOUR CAR BACK, WHAT DID
r 12
13
THE POLICE TELL YOU?
A. THEY TOLD ME THAT I WAS LYING AND I COULDN'T
r 14
15
GET MY CAR BACK.
Q. YOU ACTUALLY WENT IN TO TALK TO THE POLICE,
r 16
17
RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I'M NOT SURE.
ABOUT A MONTH LATER MAYBE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE SO.
IT WAS SOMETIME AFTER.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
IT WASN'T LIKE A YEAR AFTER.
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q.
YOU, RIGHT?
AND AT THAT TIME YOU BROUGHT AN ATTORNEY WITH
r 28 A. YES.
r
2167
l
l
1 Q. WHO WAS IT?
2 A. STEVE FRANTZ. l
3 Q. WHO RECOMMENDED HIM?
4 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ. l
5 THE COURT: STEVE FRANTZ, WAS IT?
6 THE WITNESS: YES.

l
7
8
THE COURT:
F-R-A-N-T-Z.
l
9
10
Q.
A.
AND WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO GET AN ATTORNEY?
I BELIEVE MINE.
l
11 Q. WHY DID YOU WANT AN ATTORNEY? l
12 A. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO GO THERE BY MYSELF. IT
13 WAS UNCOMFORTABLE. l
14 Q. DID YOU THINK AN ATTORNEY WOULD HELP YOU GET
l
15 YOUR CAR BACK?
,
16
17
A.
Q.
PROBABLY, YES.
WHEN YOU WENT WITH THE ATTORNEY, WHAT DID YOU

, I
18
19
20
TELL THE POLICE AT THAT TIME?
A.
Q.
THAT I WASN'T THERE.
THAT WASN'T TRUE, THOUGH. YOU WERE THERE,

,
J
21 RIGHT?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
SO WHY DID YOU TELL THEM THAT?
JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE QUESTIONED, DIDN'T WANT
l
25 TO BE INVOLVED. I JUST WANTED MY CAR BACK. THAT'S ALL. 1
26 Q. MY INVESTIGATOR, JOE MALDONADO, CAME AND TALKED
27 TO YOU AFTERWARDS, RIGHT? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 2168
r 1 Q. THIS WAS A LONG TIME AFTERWARDS, RIGHT?
r 2 A. YES.
r
3 Q. OVER A YEAR AFTERWARDS, RIGHT?
4 A. YES.
r 5
6
Q. WHEN WE ASKED YOU -- WHEN JOE ASKED YOU, JOE
MALDONADO, WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, YOU LIED TO US,
r 7
8
DIDN'T YOU?
A. YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHAT DID YOU SAY?
I WASN'T THERE.
r 11 Q. WE TOLD YOU THAT WE WERE WORKING FOR FLORENCIO
r 12
13
DOMINGUEZ AS HIS DEFENSE TEAM, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q. AND WE TOLD YOU WE WANTED INFORMATION ABOUT
WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, RIGHT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU DECIDED TO LIE TO US.
r 18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHY?
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WERE YOU TRYING TO AVOID SOMETHING?
I WAS JUST TRYING TO AVOID A SITUATION, YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DID YOU EVER THINK YOU MIGHT END UP IN COURT?
NO.
r 25
26
Q. DID YOU THINK THAT IF YOU LIED TO US,
YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO COME TO COURT?

PERHAPS
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. DO YOU WANT TO BE IN COURT?
r
2169
l
1 A. NO.
l
2 Q. WHY NOT? 1
3 A. IT'S JUST UNCOMFORTABLE.
4 Q. SO I SENT ANOTHER INVESTIGATOR NAMED SOCHIE l
5 CRUZ TO TALK TO YOU, RIGHT?
6 A. YES.
1
l
,
7 Q. AT THAT TIME THAT'S WHEN YOU TOLD THE TRUTH.
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO TELL THE TRUTH?
10 A. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO SEE AN INNOCENT MAN END
11 UP IN JAIL. l
13 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU. l
l
l
,
16 BY MR. TROCHA:
17 Q. YOU WERE FINE WITH AN INNOCENT MAN GOING TO
18 JAIL WITH THE FIRST DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR THAT TALKED TO _1
19 YOU?
20 A. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED. 1
21 Q. SO YOU WERE FINE WITH AN INNOCENT MAN GOING TO
22 JAIL WITH THE FIRST INVESTIGATOR THAT TALKED TO YOU,
l
23
24
MS. BANUELOS?
l
25 ANSWERED. 1
27 THE WITNESS: LIKE I SAID, I DIDN'T WANT TO BE l
28 INVOLVED.
l
l
r 2170
r 1 BY MR. TROCHA:
[ 2 Q. BUT YOU WERE INVOLVED, MS. BANUELOS, CORRECT?
r
3 A. WELL, I JUST WENT AND PICKED UP MY
4 EX-BOYFRIEND.
r
[_
5 Q. ACTUALLY, YOU GAVE HIM A RIDE TO THE PARK,
6 CORRECT, MS. BANUELOS?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO, I DID NOT.
YOU DIDN'T?
r 9
10
A. NO, I DID NOT SHOW UP. I WENT TO PICK HIM UP.
HE CALLED ME TO PICK HIM UP AND I WENT TO PICK HIM UP.
[ 11 Q. WHAT COLOR IS YOUR HAIR?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
LIKE A MOCHA BROWN.
IT'S A LIGHT BROWN, ALMOST BLONDE, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
NO? THAT'S YOUR NATURAL HAIR COLOR?
r 16
17
A.
NOT BLONDE.
NO, IT'S NOT MY NATURAL HAIR COLOR, BUT IT'S
~
Il 18 Q. HOW DID YOU GET YOUR HAIR TO THAT COLOR?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I DYED IT.
WOULD SOME CALL BLEACHING IT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO. I DYED IT.
IF YOU WANTED TO MAKE SOMETHING LIGHTER, WOULD
r 23
24
YOU BLEACH IT?
A. YES. IF YOU WANT PLATINUM BLONDE STREAKS,
r 25
26
YES.
Q. SO IF A GUY MAYBE WAS DESCRIBING HAIR AND
27 WASN'T FAMILIAR WITH STREAKING AND COLORING, THEY MIGHT
r 28 CALL IT BLEACHING, CORRECT?
r
2171
l
l
1
3
SPECULATION.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE WITNESS:
OBJECTION.
I'M NOT SURE.

CALLS FOR
,
5 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MOVE TO STRIKE THE ANSWER.
6 THE COURT: STRICKEN.

1
~
7 BY MR. TROCHA:
J
8 Q. IS YOUR HAIR THE SAME COLOR TODAY AS IT WAS
9 THREE YEARS AGO? l

10 A. I BELIEVE SO.
11 Q. WE HEARD ON MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S QUESTIONS THAT l

12 YOU'RE QUITE CONCERNED WITH YOUR APPEARANCE, ARE YOU
13 NOT? l
14
15
A.
Q.
WITH MY APPEARANCE?
CORRECT.
l
16 A. YEAH.
l
17 Q. YOU ACTUALLY WEAR GLASSES, BECAUSE, IN HIS
~
18 WORDS, FOR REASONS OF VANITY, YOU DON'T WANT TO WEAR l
J
19 THEM, RIGHT?
20 A. YES. l
21 Q. YOU'RE DRESSED QUITE NICE TODAY; WOULD YOU
22 AGREE?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DRESSED APPROPRIATELY FOR

l
25 THE OCCASION?
l
26 A. MAYBE.
27 Q. IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 2172
r 1 Q. YOU DIDN'T COME IN WEARING SOME CUT-OFF SHORTS
r 2 AND A TANK TOP, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THAT WOULDN'T BE APPROPRIATE, WOULD IT?
AGREED. YESTERDAY WHEN YOU WERE HERE WAITING,

5
r 6
YOU WERE ALSO WEARING A NICE GRAY TAILORED SUIT AND
SKIRT, RIGHT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE SO, YES.
WHAT WERE YOU WEARING THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER?
r 9 A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WELL, YOU GUYS HAD PLANS TO GO OUT, RIGHT?
YES.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHERE WERE YOU GOING TO GO OUT?
WE DIDN'T GET TO THAT PART. HE WAS DRUNK.
r 14
15
Q. WELL, FROM 1:00 IN THE AFTERNOON UNTIL 8:00 AT
NIGHT, WE HEARD YOU KEPT CALLING MR. DOMINGUEZ, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
SO FOR SEVEN HOURS YOU HAD PLANS TO GO
r 18
19
SOMEWHERE WITH HIM, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 20 Q. WHERE WERE YOU GOING?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WE DIDN'T GET TO THAT POINT.
SO WHY WERE YOU SO UPSET IF YOU HAD REALLY NO
r 23
24
PLANS TO DO ANYTHING?
A. BECAUSE I WANTED TO SEE HIM.
r 25 Q. WELL, WE'VE HEARD THAT YOU DON'T WEAR GLASSES
r 26
27
28
BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY IT LOOKS, AND YOU DRESS
APPROPRIATELY FOR THE OCCASION.

IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHERE YOU WERE GOING TO GO,
r
r
2173
l
l
1 HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO WEAR?
2 A. I CAN JUST GO TO MY CLOSET AND PICK SOMETHING l
3 UP.
4 Q. IT TAKES THAT QUICK TO GET READY THAT EASILY? l
5 A. SOMETIMES, YES.
6 Q. DIDN'T YOU WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU WERE GOING?
l
7
8
A. WELL, HE WASN'T PICKING UP, SO HOW WAS I
SUPPOSED TO KNOW?
l
9 Q. WELL, YOU WERE DRINKING THAT DAY AS WELL, SO IT l
10 COULDN'T HAVE BEEN A PLACE TOO NICE, WAS IT,
11 MS. BANUELOS? l
13 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 1
14
15
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. YOU WERE DRINKING THAT DAY WITH YOUR SISTER, SO
l
16
17
YOU WEREN'T GOING TO A PLACE THAT WAS TOO NICE, RIGHT?
A. WELL, I WAS DRINKING BECAUSE I WAS UPSET, BUT
l
18 I'M NOT SURE WHERE WE WERE GOING. l
19 Q. I MEAN, IF YOU WERE GOING SOMEPLACE NICE, YOU
20 WOULDN'T WANT TO SHOW UP DRUNK, RIGHT? l
21 A. I WAS UPSET.
22 Q. IF YOU WERE GOING TO GO TO A NICE RESTAURANT,
l
23
24
YOU WOULDN'T ARRIVE DRUNK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. I BELIEVE WE WEREN'T GOING TO GO TO A
l
25 RESTAURANT. l
26 Q. OH, SO YOU DID KNOW WHERE YOU WERE GOING TO GO.
27 A. I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE WE WERE GOING TO GO. l
28 Q. WHERE WAS THAT, MS. BANUELOS?
l
l
r 2174
r 1 A. I DID NOT KNOW WHERE WE WERE GOING, LIKE I
r 2 SAID.
YOU KNEW YOU WEREN'T GOING TO A RESTAURANT, SO
r
3 Q.
4 WHERE WAS IT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET FROM YOUR HOUSE
r 7
8
TO THE PARK?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 9
10
Q. WEREN'T YOU ONLY LIVING ABOUT FIVE BLOCKS AWAY
AT THE TIME?
r 11 A. I DON'T COUNT THE BLOCKS. I'M NOT SURE HOW FAR
r 12
13
IT IS.
Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING?
r 14
15
A. BECAUSE HE CALLED ME AND ASKED ME TO PICK HIM
UP AT THE PARK.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
SO YOU KNEW WHICH PARK.
YES.
r 18 Q.
A.
OCEAN VIEW PARK.
YES.
r
19
20 Q. HOW FAR WAS OCEAN VIEW PARK FROM YOUR HOUSE?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
I'M NOT SURE.
YOU DON'T KNOW?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO, I DON'T KNOW.
YOU HAD TO DRIVE --
r 25 A. I DIDN'T TIME MYSELF OVER THERE.
r 26
27
Q. YOU HAD TO DRIVE YOURSELF FROM THE HOUSE TO THE
PARK, RIGHT?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2175
l
l
1 Q. YOU HAD TO KNOW HOW LONG IT WAS GOING TO TAKE
2 YOU TO GET THERE, RIGHT? l
3 A. I'M NOT SURE. I DIDN'T TIME MYSELF TO THE r,::q
4 PARK. J
5 Q. DID IT TAKE YOU AN HOUR TO GET THERE,

6 MS. BANUELOS?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
NO, IT DID NOT TAKE AN HOUR TO GET THERE.
MORE LIKE FIVE MINUTES, RIGHT?
l
9 A. I'M NOT SURE. l
10 Q. WHY DIDN'T MR. DOMINGUEZ JUST HAVE HIS FRIEND
11 DROP HIM OFF AT YOUR HOUSE INSTEAD OF THE PARK? l
13 SPECULATION. l
14
15
THE WITNESS:
MY HOUSE DRUNK.
BECAUSE HE'S NOT GOING TO GO TO
l
16
17
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
l
18 Q. HE WON'T GO TO YOUR HOUSE DRUNK? l
19 A. NO.
20 Q. EVEN IF YOU'RE AT YOUR HOUSE DRINKING? l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. AND WE HEARD THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ CALLED HIS
l
23
24
BROTHER TO PICK HIM UP AFTER THIS INCIDENT AND YOU WERE
WITH HIM, CORRECT?
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. SO HE COULD HAVE CALLED HIS BROTHER BEFORE THIS
27 INCIDENT FOR A RIDE, CORRECT? l
28 A. I BELIEVE SO.
l
l
r 2176
r 1 Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING YOU HAD TO GO TO THE PARK TO
r 2 PICK HIM UP TO GO WHERE AGAIN?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
WE DON'T KNOW. WE DIDN'T GET TO THAT POINT.
BUT YOU WERE REALLY MAD, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD NO
r 5
6
PLANS TO GO ANYWHERE.
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. YOU MENTIONED A PERSON WAS AT THE PARK BY THE
NAME OF CHRISTIAN.
r 9
10 A.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU SEEN CHRISTIAN?
A FEW TIMES.
r 11 Q. HOW MANY TIMES?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
A FEW TIMES.
HOW MANY TIMES, MS. BANUELOS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I'M NOT SURE. A FEW TIMES.
MORE THAN THREE TIMES?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, PROBABLY.
MORE THAN 10 TIMES?
r 18 A. NOT SURE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
IS THIS ALWAYS WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ?
YES.
r 21
22 YOU?
Q. HOW ABOUT SIRIA FORD? YOU KNOW HER, DON'T
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I BELIEVE THAT'S CHRISTIAN'S GIRLFRIEND.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU SEEN HER?
r 25 A. A FEW TIMES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
HOW MANY TIMES IS THAT?
A FEW.
r 28 Q. MORE THAN THREE?
r
2177
l
l
1 A. YES, PROBABLY.
2 Q. MORE THAN 10? l
3 A. NOT SURE.
4 Q. HOW ABOUT VICTOR RAMOS, DO YOU KNOW HIM? l
A. NO.
5
6 Q. HOW ABOUT JONATHAN QUINTANILLA? DO YOU KNOW

l
7
8
JONATHAN QUINTANILLA?
A. NO.
l
9 Q. DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE DEFENDANT'S FRIENDS? l
10 A. PROBABLY SEEN THEM, BUT, NO, I DON'T KNOW THEM.
11 Q. HOW ABOUT RANDY BARNES? l
12 WHAT ARE YOUR BOYFRIEND'S FRIENDS' NAMES?
13 A. NOT SURE. l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR BOYFRIEND'S FRIENDS?
I KNOW THEM, I SEEN THEM, BUT I DON'T, LIKE,
l
16
17
KNOW THEIR NAMES AND STUFF.
Q. YOU DATED FOR OVER A YEAR, THOUGH,
l
18 MS. BANUELOS. YOU NEVER P~CKED UP ANY NICKNAMES? l
19 A. I DON'T MAKE CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM.
20 Q. YOU JUST STAND THERE, MUTE? l
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. THAT DOESN'T UPSET YOU AT ALL?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY NOT?
l
25 A. BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT MY FRIENDS. THEY'RE HIS l
26 FRIENDS.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS IN A GANG? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 2178
r 1 Q. YOU DIDN'T?
r 2 A. NO.
r 3
4
Q. HOW COULD YOU NOT?
r 5
6
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
I JUST DID NOT.
AS PHRASED, SUSTAINED.
r 7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DID YOU EVER SEE HIS TATTOOS?
r 9 A. YEAH, I SEEN THEM.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
ALL OF THEM?
YES.
r 12
13 106.
Q. MS. BANUELOS, I'M SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT
THERE'S TATTOOS ON MR. DOMINGUEZ'S CHEST AND
r 14
15
BELLY, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
THAT'S NOT YOUR NAME ON HIS CHEST, CORRECT?
NO.
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 19
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OVERRULED.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DID YOU EVER ASK HIM WHO NATALIE WAS?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
HE TOLD ME THAT WAS THE MOTHER OF HIS KIDS.
r 25 Q. DID HE ALSO TELL YOU IT'S HIS WIFE?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
NO, HE DID NOT.
DID YOU EVER MEET HIS KIDS?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2179
1
l
1 Q. HOW MANY KIDS DOES HE HAVE?
l
2
3
4
A.
Q.
A.
THREE.
WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES?
I BELIEVE IT'S ALEAH AND JOSE AND DANNY.
, )
Q. SO YOU REMEMBER THE NAMES OF HIS KIDS, BUT YOU

5
6 CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAMES OF ANY OF HIS FRIENDS?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
NO. WE DON'T TALK ABOUT HIS FRIENDS.
BUT YOU HANG OUT WITH HIS FRIENDS.
l
9 A. YES, WE DID A FEW TIMES. l
10 Q. DID YOU HANG OUT WITH HIS KIDS?
11 A. NO. l
12 Q. DID YOU ASK HIM WHAT OVP STANDS FOR?
13 A. NO. l
14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR, MS. BANUELOS?
I'M NOT SURE.
l
16
17
Q. PEOPLE'S 111, YOUR HONOR.
DID YOU ASK HIM WHAT "HOOD RAISED" IS?
l
18 A. NO. l
19 Q. DID YOU ASK WHY HE HAS SO MANY SEASHELLS
20 TATTOOED ON HIS BODY? l
21 A. NO.
22 Q. PEOPLE'S 115, YOUR HONOR.
l
23
24
YOU HAD TO HAVE ASKED ABOUT THE GIANT 38 ON HIS
BACK, RIGHT, MS. BANUELOS?
l
25 A. NO.
l
26 Q. YOU NEVER ASKED WHY HE HAS "38" IN 12-INCH-HIGH
27 LETTERS ON HIS BACK? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 2180
r 1 Q. THE WHOLE TIME YOU DATED HIM?
r 2 A. NEVER CAME TO MY CONCERN.
r 3
4
Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE LIVING IN AN AREA WHERE A
GANG KNOWN AS SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET CLAIMS IT AS ITS
5 TERRITORY?
r 6 A. NO.
r 7
8
Q. SO AS YOU LIVED IN SHELLTOWN AND YOU SAW THE
GRAFFITI ON THE WALLS NEAR YOUR HOME, YOU NEVER PUT TWO
r 9 AND TWO TOGETHER WITH THE MAN YOU WERE DATING?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
IT JUST REALLY DIDN'T CONCERN ME.
IT DIDN'T?
r 12
13
A.
I SAID.
I JUST NEVER ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS TATTOOS, LIKE
r 14
15
Q. IT DIDN'T CONCERN YOU THAT YOU MAY BE DATING A
GANG MEMBER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
WELL, TO ME HE WASN'T A GANG MEMBER.
IS THAT WHAT YOU WANTED TO BELIEVE,
r 18
19
MS. BANUELOS?
A. NO. HE JUST DIDN'T DRESS LIKE A GANG MEMBER.
r 20 Q. YET HE HAD TATTOOS LIKE A GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES. A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TATTOOS.
HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU KNOW THAT HAVE A GIANT
r 23
24
38 ON THEIR BACK?
A. I DON'T GO AROUND LOOKING AT TATTOOS LIKE THAT.
r 25
26
Q. WELL, HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU KNOW,
MS. BANUELOS?
r 27 A. WELL, ONE, I BELIEVE.
r 28 Q. THAT WOULD BE MR. DOMINGUEZ, RIGHT?
r
2181
l
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE PARK, YOU PARKED SOMEWHERE l
3 BY THE ALLEY; IS THAT CORRECT?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. WOULD IT HELP TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS
6 TO THE EXACT LOCATION IF YOU SAW A PICTURE OF YOUR CAR?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
PEOPLE'S 39, YOUR HONOR.
l
9 IS THAT YOUR CAR, MS. BANUELOS? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. IS THAT WHERE YOU PARKED? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. SO YOU DIDN'T PARK IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE l
14
15
ALLEY. IT'S ON THIS SIDE OF THE ALLEY, WHICH WOULD BE
OF THE EAST SIDE, CORRECT?
l
l
,
16 A. YEAH. IT WAS SOMEWHERE, YEAH.
17 Q. YOU DIDN'T MOVE YOUR CAR THAT NIGHT, RIGHT?
18 A. NO. J
19 Q. IT'S EXACTLY WHERE YOU PARKED IT.

20 A. WELL, YES. l
21 Q. YOU GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND WALKED INTO THE
22 PARK, SO YOU SAY, CORRECT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THEN YOU SAW MR. DOMINGUEZ ON THE DIRT
l
25 ALLEY, YOU ARGUED FOR A LITTLE BIT -- THAT'S WHAT YOU l
26 TOLD US TODAY, RIGHT?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. -- AND YOU WALKED BACK TO THIS CAR AND GOT
l
l
r 2182
r 1 INSIDE, CORRECT?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
YOU ARGUED FOR HOW LONG IN THE CAR?
WE WERE THERE FOR A WHILE.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AN HOUR?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
MAYBE MORE?
YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?
I DON'T RECALL.
r 11 Q. YOU DON'T?
r 12
13 ALL.
A. NO. IT'S MAYBE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T CALL ME AT
r 14
15
Q.
A.
YOU'VE HAD AN ARGUMENT ON THE DIRT PATH --
YES.
r 16
17
Q. WE'VE HEARD ABOUT AN ARGUMENT IN THE CAR,
WE'VE HEARD ABOUT AN ARGUMENT CARRYING OVER INTO THE
r 18 STREET OUTSIDE OF THE CAR, AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT IT

WAS ABOUT?
r
19
20 A. NO. THIS WAS A LONG TIME AGO.
r 21
22
Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN IN A PARK WHERE
SOMEONE HAS BEEN SHOT, MS. BANUELOS?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NEVER.
SO THIS WOULD STAND OUT IN YOUR MIND PRETTY
r 25
26
WELL; WOULD YOU AGREE?
A. YEAH, MAYBE.
r 27 Q. AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT THE ARGUMENT WAS
r 28 ABOUT?
r
2183
l
l
1 A. NO.
2 Q. YOU ARGUED FOR OVER AN HOUR AND YOU CAN'T l
3 REMEMBER ONE THING? JUST ONE THING?
4 A. MAYBE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T CALL ME ALL DAY. l
5
6
Q.
A.
MAYBE?
YES.
l
7
8
Q.
A.
OR IS THAT WHAT YOU ARGUED ABOUT?
MAYBE.
l
~
9 Q. THAT TOOK AN HOUR AND A HALF TO HASH OUT? J
10 A. YES.
11 Q. YOU BROUGHT YOUR PURSE WITH YOU, RIGHT? l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS BRING YOUR PURSE WHEN YOU GO l
14
15
OUT, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
16 Q. AND THEN YOU LEFT IT IN THE CAR?
l
17 A. I LEFT IT BEHIND THE PASSENGER SEAT.
18 Q. NO. YOU LEFT IT IN THE FRONT PASSENGER SEAT. l
19 A. NO, I DIDN'T. I LEFT IT IN THE BACK OF THE
20 PASSENGER SEAT. l
21 Q. HOW ABOUT THE WINDOWS? DID YOU ROLL THE
22 WINDOWS UP TOO?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE I DID.
YOU CAN SEE IN PEOPLE'S 51 THE FRONT PASSENGER
l
25 WINDOW WAS ROLLED DOWN, CAN WE NOT, MS. BANUELOS? l
26 A. YES, BUT MY WINDOWS WEREN'T LIKE THAT.
27 Q. WOULD YOU LEAVE YOUR PURSE IN THE CAR WITH THE l
28 WINDOWS ROLLED DOWN?
l
l
r 2184
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. WHY NOT?
r 3
4
A. BECAUSE MY WINDOWS ARE ROLLED DOWN.
LEAVE MY WINDOWS LIKE THAT.
I DIDN'T
r 5
6
Q. WHY WOULDN'T YOU LEAVE THE WINDOWS ROLLED DOWN
OF THE CAR WITH YOUR PURSE INSIDE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY SOMEONE CAN STEAL MY PURSE.
SO IF THE WINDOW WAS ROLLED DOWN IN YOUR CAR
r 9 AND THE PURSE WAS INSIDE, YOU PROBABLY HAVE A PRETTY
r 10
11
GOOD REASON FOR LEAVING IT THAT WAY, RIGHT?
A. MY WINDOWS WEREN'T LIKE THAT.
r 12
13
Q.
DOWN?
ARE YOU SAYING SOMEONE ROLLED THESE WINDOWS
r 14
15
A.
THAT.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT, BUT THEY WEREN'T LIKE
r 16
17
Q. WELL, IF YOU DIDN'T LEAVE THEM LIKE THAT AND
THE POLICE FOUND THEM LIKE THAT, HOW WOULD THEY HAVE
r 18 GOTTEN LIKE THAT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NOT SURE.
DOES YOUR CAR HAVE A FAULT WITH AN ELECTRICAL
r 21
22
WHERE THE WINDOWS ROLL DOWN FROM TIME TO TIME?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q.
KEYS?
CAN YOU ROLL THE WINDOWS DOWN WITHOUT THE
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I DON'T BELIEVE -- I DON'T THINK SO.
AND YOU HAD YOUR KEYS WITH YOU, RIGHT?
r 27 A. YES.
r 28 Q. SO WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR CAR WITH THE KEYS, THAT
r
2185
l
l
1 WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CONDITION YOUR WINDOWS WERE IN AT
2 THE TIME. l
3 A. I'M NOT SURE. I DON'T REMEMBER LEAVING MY
4 WINDOWS LIKE THAT, THOUGH. l
5 Q. WHEN YOU DRIVE AROUND IN YOUR CAR, WHEN YOU
6 WANT SOME AIR, DO YOU ROLL DOWN YOUR WINDOWS?
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YES, OR TURN ON THE AC.
IF YOU'RE THE DRIVER AND THE SOLE OCCUPANT OF
l
9 THAT CAR, WOULD YOU EVER JUST ROLL DOWN THE PASSENGER l
10 WINDOW IF YOU WANTED SOME BREEZE?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. NOT THE DRIVER'S WINDOW?
13 A. SOMETIMES. DEPENDS HOW I'M FEELING. l
Q. WAS IT HOT THAT NIGHT?
14
15 A. NOT SURE.
l
16
17
Q.
A.
HOW WAS THE WEATHER, MS. BANUELOS?
NOT REALLY SURE.
l
18 Q. ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT? l
19 A. MAYBE.
20 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE LAST TIME YOU TESTIFIED, l
21 MS. BANUELOS?
22 A. I SAID IT WAS FOGGY.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YEAH, YOU DID, DIDN'T YOU?
YES.
l
25 Q. WHY DID YOU SAY THAT? l
26 A. BECAUSE MAYBE I WAS SEEING BLURRY.
27 Q. YOU SAID IT WAS SO FOGGY -- I DON'T WANT TO l
28 TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT
l
l
r 2186
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M OBJECTING TO THE WAY
r 2 THIS IS BEING PRESENTED. IF SHE CAN SEE THE WHOLE
r
3 TRANSCRIPT --
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. ASK A PARTICULAR
r 5
6
QUESTION.
MR. TROCHA: YES, YOUR HONOR. I'M SORRY. I
r 7
8
HAD FORGOTTEN. 3745, OCTOBER 21ST, 2010.
ACTUALLY GO TO 3744, SAME TRANSCRIPT, LINE 22.
r 9
10
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I WAS SHOWING YOU A PIECE OF YOUR STATEMENT
r 11 FROM MS. CRUZ WHERE YOU SAID, "VISIBILITY WAS DARK WITH
r 12
13
A LIGHT, MISTY FOG. VISUAL CLARITY WAS APPROXIMATELY
THREE FEET, BUT AT SIX FEET YOU COULD NOT IDENTIFY
r 14
15
FACIAL FEATURES."
YOU RESPONDED, "OKAY."
Fi1
{ 16 I ASKED, "YET YOU TOLD US TODAY YOU COULD SEE
17 ALL THE WAY UP IN THE PARK BY THE TREES."
r 18 YOUR RESPONSE WAS, "YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE. YOU
r 19
20
JUST CAN'T, LIKE -- YOU CAN'T SEE, LIKE, ANYTHING ABOUT
THEM.
r 21
22 YOU?
"QUESTION: WELL, IS THAT WITHIN SIX FEET OF
r 23
24
YOUR ANSWER, "I'M NOT SURE.
"QUESTION: PROBABLY?
PROBABLY.
SO AS YOU'RE STANDING ON
r 25
26
THE STREET OF FRANKLIN, YOU CAN SEE ALL THE WAY UP TO
THE TREES, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S ABOUT SIX FEET?"
r 27 YOUR ANSWER, "I'M NOT SURE. IT WAS BLURRY. IT
r 28 WAS FOGGY.
r
2187
l
l
1 "QUESTION: HOW COULD YOU KNOW ANYTHING WAS
2 GOING ON IF THE FOG WAS SO DENSE YOU COULDN'T SEE A l
3 PERSON'S FACE SIX FEET AWAY FROM YOU?"
4 YOUR ANSWER, "BECAUSE YOU COULD SEE LITTLE l
5 BLACK DOTS MOVING AROUND.
6 "QUESTION: DID YOU HAVE A HARD TIME DRIVING
l
7 YOUR CAR TO THE PARK? 1J
8 "ANSWER: NO.
9 "QUESTION: FOG DOESN'T DISTRACT YOUR ABILITY l
10 TO MOVE THE CAR AROUND THE STREET?"
11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECT. l
12 MR. TROCHA: YOUR ANSWER, "I DRIVE REALLY SLOW,
13 SO" -- l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECT.
SUSTAINED. MR. TROCHA, WHAT'S THE
l
16
17
PART YOU'RE FOCUSING ON?
BY MR. TROCHA:
l
18 Q. SO YOU WERE SAYING IT'S SO FOGGY, YOU COULDN'T l
19
20
SEE A PERSON'S FACE SIX FEET IN FRONT OF YOU, CORRECT?
A. I'M NOT SURE. MAYBE I WAS SEEING BLURRY. I
, J
21 WASN'T WEARING MY GLASSES, LIKE I SAID.

22 Q. YOU SAID AT THAT TIME YOU COULD ALSO SEE PEOPLE
l
23
24
IN THE PARK, AND YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE ABOUT SIX FEET
AWAY FROM YOU.
l
25 A. I'M NOT SURE.
l
26 Q. THAT'S WHAT WE HEARD IN THE TRANSCRIPT,
27 CORRECT? l
28 A. YES. CO!J
l
r 2188
r 1 Q. YOU TESTIFIED TODAY, WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE
r 2 LITTLE RED CIRCLE ON PEOPLE'S 2, WHAT YOU SAW IN THAT
r 3
4
AREA. YOU TESTIFIED THAT THEY WERE BLACK DOTS.
WHAT YOU SAID?
IS THAT
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
THEN YOU SAID THESE BLACK DOTS WERE ACTUALLY
r 7
8
PEOPLE DRINKING.
A. NOT SURE. I'M SURE THEY WERE DRINKING.
r 9 Q. SO YOU COULD SEE PEOPLE DRINKING, BUT YOU WERE
r
10 UNSURE THEN IF THEY WERE FIGHTING?
11 A. I DIDN'T SAY I SAW PEOPLE DRINKING.
r 12
13
Q. WELL, YOU JUST TESTIFIED A FEW MINUTES AGO,
WHEN COUNSEL ASKED YOU, YOU SAID YOU SAW BLACK DOTS AND
r 14
15
PEOPLE DRINKING.
A. I SAID I ASSUMED THEY WERE DRINKING.
r 16
17
Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU WERE ASKED IF THEY WERE
FIGHTING, YOU SAID THEY COULD BE FIGHTING AS WELL.
r 18 A. THEY COULD HAVE.
r
19 THE COURT: LET'S TAKE A RECESS, LADIES AND
20 GENTLEMEN. PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
r 21
22
CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
RECONVENE AT 25 MINUTES AFTER THE HOUR OF 3:00.
WE'LL
THANK
r 23
24
YOU.
r 25
26
r 27 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE IN THE COURTROOM. BOTH
r 28 COUNSEL ARE INVITED TO USE FEWER QUESTIONS TO MAKE THEIR
r
2189
l
l
1 POINTS. THIS IS A TRIAL AND AN IMPORTANT ONE, BUT IT IS
2 NOT A WAY OF LIFE. l
3 I'M ALSO GOING TO ASK THAT A SHERIFF'S DEPUTY
4
5
6
JUST BE OUT IN THE HALLWAY, UNOBTRUSIVELY, WITH THE
JURORS DURING THE BREAK, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
THE BAILIFF: THERE'S TWO OUT THERE NOW, YOUR
,
l
J
7
8
HONOR.
THE COURT: PERFECT. LET'S TAKE A RECESS.
l
11 (MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.) l
13 COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) l
14
15
THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE
l
16
17
PRESENT. ALL MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT.
HAVE MS. BANUELOS, AGAIN.
MAY WE
l
18 MS. BANUELOS, THANK YOU. UP HERE AGAIN, IF YOU l
19 WOULD, PLEASE.
20 YOU'RE STILL UNDER OATH. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? l
l
23
24
MR. TROCHA.
l
25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. NOW, WE ALSO HEARD THAT YOU TALKED TO THE
27 POLICE SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT THIS CASE, CORRECT, l
28 MS. BANUELOS?
l
l
r 2190
r 1 A. I BELIEVE SO, YES.
r 2 Q. AND YOU LIED TO THEM ON EACH OCCASION.
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. THE REASON WAS BECAUSE YOU WERE SCARED, RIGHT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
IN FACT, YOU USE THE WORD "FRIGHTENED."
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT WERE YOU FRIGHTENED OF?
r 9
10
A. I WAS JUST SCARED. I'M NOT USED TO TALKING TO
DETECTIVES AND POLICE OFFICERS AND STUFF.
r 11 Q. WELL, AT THIS POINT, YOU WERE AT A PARK WHERE
r 12
13
YOU MET YOUR BOYFRIEND AND YOU GOT IN AN ARGUMENT, SHOTS
HAPPENED AND YOU RAN AWAY, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT IS THERE TO BE SCARED ABOUT IN THAT
r 16
17
SITUATION IN TALKING WITH THE POLICE?
A. THAT I HEARD SHOOTINGS.
r 18 Q. IS HEARING SHOTS A CRIME?
r 19 A. NO, BUT IT'S SCARY.
20 Q. I AGREE THAT IT'S SCARY HEARING THE GUNFIRE.
r 21
22 A.
WHAT IS SCARY ABOUT TELLING THE POLICE THAT?
I JUST DIDN'T WANT -- I JUST WANTED MY CAR
r 23
24
BACK.
Q.
I DIDN'T WANT TO BE QUESTIONED ABOUT ANYTHING.
THE POLICE JUST ASKED YOU WHO YOU WERE WITH
r 25
26
THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 27 Q. YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT YOU ACTUALLY WEREN'T
r 28 THERE BY YOUR CAR, CORRECT?
r
2191
l
1 1
1 A. YES.
2 Q. THEY ASKED YOU SPECIFICALLY ABOUT A MAN WITH A l
3 SHAVED HEAD AND A GOATEE, CORRECT? ~
4 A. YES. 1
5 Q. AND YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T WITH A MAN WITH A
6 SHAVED HEAD AND GOATEE.
1
7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU SAID THIS MULTIPLE TIMES.
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. YOU BROUGHT AN ATTORNEY WITH YOU THE SECOND
11 TIME. l
12 A. YES.
13 Q. THIS ATTORNEY WAS PAID FOR BY MR. DOMINGUEZ, l
14 CORRECT?
15 A. YES.
l
l
,
16 Q. HE HAD YOU BRING THIS ATTORNEY WITH HIM TO TALK
17 TO THE POLICE.
18 A. YEAH, I ASKED HIM, YES.
19 Q. BROUGHT THE ATTORNEY WITH YOU, AND YOU TOLD
20 THEM THE SAME STORY. l
21 A. YES.
22 Q. THEY ACTUALLY ASKED YOU IF IT WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ
l
23
24
WITH YOU BY THE CAR, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
25 Q. AND YOU SAID IT WASN'T. l
26 A. I SAID I WASN'T THERE.
27 Q. AND NEITHER WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ BY YOUR CAR, l
28 CORRECT?
l
l
r 2192
r 1 A. I'M NOT SURE. THEY DIDN'T ASK ME ABOUT THAT.
r 2 I SAID I WASN'T THERE.
r 3
4
Q. EVEN THOUGH AT THIS POINT, ACCORDING TO YOU,
ALL YOU'VE DONE IS GET IN AN ARGUMENT WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ
r 5
6
NEXT TO THE PARK.
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. THE DEFENSE INVESTIGATOR ASKED YOU.
THEM THE SAME THING AS WELL, CORRECT?

YOU TOLD
r 9 A. YES.
10
r
Q. AT WHAT POINT DID THIS FEELING THAT YOU
11 COULDN'T LET AN INNOCENT MAN GO TO PRISON KICK INTO
12 PLAY?
r 13 A. I BELIEVE WHEN MS. SOCHIE CAME AND SPOKE TO
r 14
15
ME.
Q. HOW ABOUT THE PART WHEN YOU HAD YOUR FRIEND
r 16
17
DENISE LOPEZ GO TO THE POLICE AND TELL THE EXACT SAME
LIE?
r 18 A. YES. I ASKED HER IF THEY ASKED HER ANYTHING,
19 IF SHE CAN SAY THAT. YES, I DID SAY THAT.

r 20 Q. SO YOU WEREN'T CONCERNED ABOUT ANYONE'S FUTURE
r 21
22
AT THAT POINT?
A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 23
24
Q. WELL, YOU HAD SOMEBODY GO IN AND TELL THE SAME
LIE FOR YOU, CORRECT?
r 25 A. I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WENT IN OR NOT, BUT I ASKED
26 HER IF THEY ASKED HER THAT COULD SHE SAY THAT, YES, I
r 27 DID.
28 Q. AND THIS WAS TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE YOU WERE

r
r
2193
l
l
1 TELLING THE TRUTH, RIGHT?
2 A. YES. l
3 Q. ALL YOU HAD TO DO, ACCORDING TO YOUR TESTIMONY,
4 TO GET YOUR CAR BACK WAS TO SAY, "I WAS IN AN ARGUMENT l
5 WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ ON FRANKLIN," YES?
6 A. THE POLICE -- I JUST DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY HE
l
7
8
APPROACHED ME.
Q. WHICH TIME?
l
9 A. ALL THE TIME. EVERY TIME I SPOKE TO THEM, THEY 1
10 TALKED TO ME REALLY RUDE, AND IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE. I'M
11 NOT USED TO PEOPLE TALKING TO ME LIKE THAT. l
12 Q. SO MR. MALDONADO MADE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE AS
13 WELL? l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
MS. BANUELOS
l
16
17
A.
Q.
YES?
ISN'T THE REAL REASON YOU WERE FRIGHTENED TO
l
18 TALK TO THE POLICE IS BECAUSE YOU WERE WITH THE PERSON l
19 WHO SHOT THE KID IN THE PARK?
20 A. NO. l
21 Q. YOU WERE ALSO WITH THIS PERSON AS YOU RAN AWAY,
22 CORRECT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU WERE WITH THIS PERSON WHEN HIS BROTHER
l
25 PICKED YOU UP AT THE HOME DEPOT AND TOOK YOU TO HIS l
26 RECORDING STUDIO IN SPRING VALLEY?
27 A. YES, I WAS WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ WHEN HIS BROTHER l
28 PICKED US UP, YES.
l
l
r 2194
r 1 Q. WOULDN'T IT BE MORE REASONABLE THAT YOU WOULD

r
( 2 BE MORE AFRAID TO TALK TO THE POLICE WHEN YOU'RE DATING
r 3
4
THE MURDER SUSPECT AS OPPOSED TO JUST TRYING TO GET YOUR
CAR BACK?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO. I JUST WANTED MY CAR BACK.
YET IT TOOK TWO YEARS FOR YOU TO REVEAL THIS
r 7
8
ARGUMENT TO US, CORRECT?
A. IT'S NOT YOU JUST GO AROUND AND TALK ABOUT.
r 9
10 PHRASED.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE AS
r 12
13
WHAT DID YOU SAY, MA'AM?
THE WITNESS: IT'S JUST NOT SOMETHING YOU GO
r 14
15
AROUND AND TALK ABOUT.
BY MR. TROCHA:
r 16
17
Q.
A.
GETTING INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH YOUR BOYFRIEND?
HEARING SHOOTING.
r 18 Q. ARE YOU SAYING THAT NOBODY WILL TALK TO THE
r
19 POLICE IF THEY HEAR A SHOOTING?
20 A. I'M NOT SURE. I'M NOT SAYING THAT. I WON'T.
r 21
22
Q. BUT, AGAIN, YOU WEREN'T SHOOTING ANYONE, RIGHT?
MS. BANUELOS?
r 23
24
A. NO, BUT I WAS STILL SCARED.
NORMAL THAT YOU JUST SEE EVERYWHERE.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING
r 25 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY CONCERN AT ALL ABOUT THE
PERSON WHO MAY HAVE BEEN SHOT IN THE PARK,
r 26
27 MS. BANUELOS?
r 28 A. I DIDN'T KNOW WHO IT WAS. I DIDN'T KNOW THE
r
2195
l
l
1
2
PERSON.
Q. BUT YOU KNEW SOMEONE HAD BEEN SHOT.
, J
3 A. I WASN'T SURE. JUST ALL I HEARD WAS SHOOTING.
4 Q. SO YOU WEREN'T CONCERNED AT ALL THAT SOMEBODY l
5 MAY HAVE BEEN SERIOUSLY INJURED BY GUNFIRE AND YOU MAY
6 HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HELP THEM OUT, RIGHT?
1
7
8
A. I WAS JUST MORE CONCERNED OF NOT GETTING SHOT,
RUNNING AWAY.
l
9 Q. WELL, YOU COULD HAVE HELPED OUT THE POLICE l
10 MAYBE IF YOU HAD SEEN SOMETHING DURING YOUR ARGUMENT,
11 RIGHT? l
12 A. NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TALKING TO THE
13 POLICE. THEY GET UNCOMFORTABLE. I GET UNCOMFORTABLE. l
14
15
Q. YOU COULD HAVE HELPED OUT BY SAYING, YOU KNOW,
"ACTUALLY, I WAS AT THE HOME DEPOT, AND NOBODY RAN WITH
l
16
17
ME," RIGHT?
A. I DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED, AND I DIDN'T LIKE
l
18 THE WAY THEY WERE APPROACHING. l
19 Q. EXCEPT YOUR WAY OF NOT BEING INVOLVED IS TO GET
20 YOUR FRIENDS INVOLVED TO LIE FOR YOU AS WELL, CORRECT? l
21 A. I JUST WANTED MY CAR BACK. THAT'S ALL I
22 WANTED.
l
23
24
Q. YOUR WAY OF BEING INVOLVED IS BRINGING YOUR
BOYFRIEND'S ATTORNEY WITH YOU TO TELL LIES TO THE
l
25 POLICE, CORRECT? l
26 A. I FELT UNCOMFORTABLE, SO, YES, I ASKED HIM IF
27 HE COULD COME IN WITH ME, YES. l
28 MR. TROCHA: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR
l
l
r 2196
r 1 HONOR.
r 3
4
REDIRECT.
r 5
r 7
8
Q. MS. BANUELOS, ON CROSS YOU WERE ASKING ABOUT
WHAT YOU WERE WEARING THAT DAY, RIGHT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
YES.
AND HOW YOU WEREN'T DRESSED APPROPRIATELY OR
r 11 SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE PHRASE, "PLANS TO MAKE
r 14
15
PLANS"?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?
YOU MAKE THE PLAN WHEN YOU GET THERE.
r 18 Q. AND "LET'S HANG OUT LATER," RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY, "LET'S GO BOWLING
r 21
22
LATER."
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU MIGHT END UP GOING BOWLING.
MIGHT.
r 25 Q. IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE SO.
WHERE YOU LIVE, MS. BANUELOS, THAT'S ACTUALLY
r 28 NOT IN SHELLTOWN, RIGHT?
r
2197
l
l
1 A. CORRECT.
2 Q. WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD IS IT? l
3 A. I BELIEVE IT'S MARKET.
4 Q. OR LOGAN? 1
5 A. YES.
6 Q. SO YOU DON'T LIVE IN SHELLTOWN?
1
7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
WHEN YOU WERE IN THE CAR -- THAT PERIOD OF TIME
l
9 IN THE CAR WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ, ARGUING -- l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. -- WHAT SEAT WERE YOU IN? l
12 A. THE DRIVER.
13 Q. WHAT SEAT WAS HE IN? l
14
15
A.
Q.
THE PASSENGER.
YOU TALKED ABOUT ON CROSS AND ON DIRECT HOW
l
16 YOU'RE UNCOMFORTABLE AROUND THE POLICE.
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND HOW YOU DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED. 1
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND YOU THOUGHT TELLING THEM THAT YOU WEREN'T l
21 THERE WOULD HELP YOU NOT BE INVOLVED, RIGHT?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q. WHEN YOU TOLD THEM THOSE THINGS, DID YOU TAKE
AN OATH TO TELL THE TRUTH?
l
25 A. NO. l
26 Q. DID YOU SWEAR THAT YOU WOULD TELL THE TRUTH
27 WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE POLICE? l
28 A. NO.
l
l
r 2198
r 1 Q. WHEN MY INVESTIGATOR TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS
r 2 WORKING FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ AND WANTED INFORMATION AND YOU
r
3 TOLD HIM YOU WEREN'T THERE, DID YOU TAKE AN OATH AT THAT
4 TIME TO TELL THE TRUTH?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
TODAY YOU DID TAKE AN OATH, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
ALSO, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE POLICE ABOUT
r 9
10
YOUR CAR IN OCTOBER, WHO WAS ARRESTED, TO YOUR
KNOWLEDGE, FOR THIS CRIME AT THAT TIME?
r 11 A. I'M NOT SURE.
r 12
13
Q. ANYBODY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ACCUSED AT THAT
MOMENT IN TIME?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE IT WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ.
IN OCTOBER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I'M NOT REALLY SURE.
YOU DON'T KNOW?
r 18 A. NO.
r 19
20
Q.
GUNSHOTS?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN AROUND SHOTS BEFORE,
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
FIRST TIME?
r 23
24
A. YES.
r 25
26
THE COURT:
FURTHER CROSS?
THANK YOU.
r 27 MR. TROCHA: JUST A COUPLE.
r 28 Ill
r
2199
l
l
1
3
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
THE ADDRESS YOU GAVE THE POLICE IN YOUR

,
4 INTERVIEW WAS ON 33RD STREET, RIGHT? 1
5 A. WHAT WAS THAT?
l
6
7
Q. THE ADDRESS YOU GAVE THE POLICE WHEN THEY
INTERVIEWED YOU WAS ON 33RD STREET, RIGHT?
, J
8 A. YES.
l
9
10
11
12
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
IT'S RIGHT HERE, CORRECT?
YES.
SOUTH 33RD STREET.
MOUNTAIN VIEW PARK RIGHT HERE, CORRECT?

YES.
,
13 Q. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO DRIVE DOWN TO OCEAN l
14
15
VIEW BOULEVARD TO THE PARK?
A. I'M NOT SURE. IT'S NOT THAT CLOSE.
l
16
17
Q. DO YOU ONLY TELL THE TRUTH WHEN SOMEBODY MAKES
YOU PROMISE TO TELL THE TRUTH?
l
18 A. YES. 1
19 Q. SO UP UNTIL THAT TIME, YOU JUST SAY ANYTHING
20 YOU WANT? l
21 A. NO, NOT EXACTLY.
22 Q. WELL, YOU'RE TELLING US IN THIS CASE YOU DIDN'T
l
23
24
TELL THE TRUTH UNTIL SOMEBODY MADE YOU PROMISE.
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, MS. BANUELOS?
IS THAT
l
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. SO I GUESS THAT WHOLE THING ABOUT NOT WANTING
27 TO SEE AN INNOCENT PERSON GOING TO JAIL DOESN'T MATTER l
28 UNLESS SOMEBODY ASKS YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH.
l
,
r 2200
r 1 A. IT MATTERS. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED,
r 2 LIKE I SAID.
r 3
4
Q. SO IT DIDN'T MATTER WHEN THE POLICE WERE ASKING
YOU QUESTIONS.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
IT DIDN'T MATTER WHEN MR. MALDONADO WAS ASKING
r 7
8
YOU QUESTIONS.
A. I DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
r 9 Q. IT DIDN'T MATTER WHEN YOU ASKED YOUR FRIEND,
r 10
11
DIANA BANUELOS (SIC), TO LIE FOR YOU.
A. I DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
r 12
13
Q.
INVOLVED.
AND YOU DID THAT BY GETTING MORE PEOPLE
r 14
15
A. I JUST ASKED MY FRIEND, IF THEY ASKED HER, IF
SHE CAN DO LIKE THAT, YES, I DID.
r 16
17
Q. BECAUSE YOU WERE AFRAID THAT THE POLICE MIGHT
FIND OUT YOU WERE IN AN ARGUMENT?
r 18 A. NO. I JUST DIDN'T WANT THE POLICE TO BE
r 19
20
HARASSING ME.
Q. ABOUT AN ARGUMENT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
ABOUT ANYTHING, OR QUESTION ME ABOUT ANYTHING.
WOULDN'T IT JUST BE EASIER TO GET THEM OFF YOUR
r 23
24
BACK BY SAYING, "I WAS WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ AND WE WERE IN
AN ARGUMENT ON FRANKLIN"?
r 25 A. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED, LIKE I SAID.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
AND THIS WENT ON FOR TWO YEARS, RIGHT?
YES.
r
2201
l
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BRIEFLY. THANK YOU, YOUR
l
2 HONOR. 1
l _j
5 Q. YOU LIVE AT 33RD AND MARKET?

6 A. YES.
l
7 Q. ON THIS MAP WE SEE 33RD. IT'S RIGHT HERE,
l
8
9
INDICATING THE THIRD STREET IN FROM THE LEFT ON THE MAP,
RIGHT?
, J
10 A. YES.
l
11
12
13
Q.
A.
Q.
DO WE SEE MARKET ON THAT MAP?
I CAN'T REALLY SEE, BUT, NO.
MARKET ISN'T ON THAT MAP, IS IT?
, J
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
SO WHERE YOU LIVE ISN'T DEPICTED ON THE MAP,
l
16
17
CORRECT?
A. NO.
l
18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING FURTHER. 1
20 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU. l
21 THE COURT: MAY MS. BANUELOS BE EXCUSED?
22 MR. TROCHA: YES.
l
23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES.
MS. BANUELOS, THANK YOU FOR COMING
l
25 TO COURT. MA'AM, PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT THE TESTIMONY l
26 OR WHAT YOU WERE ASKED WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES,
27 EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS OR ATTORNEYS, UNTIL THE TRIAL IS l
28 OVER. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
l
l
r 2202
r 2 THE COURT: YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. GOOD DAY TO
r
3 YOU. THANK YOU.
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
r
r.
5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
GOING TO CALL SUSAN MERCURIO.
THANK YOU. THE DEFENSE IS
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE CLERK:
YOU MAY.
r 10
11
HELP YOU GOD?
r 12
13
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
I DO.
r 14
15
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, MA'AM.
r 16
17
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
M-E-R-C-U-R-I-0.
SUSAN ELAINE MERCURIO,
r 21
22
r 23
24
SUSAN ELAINE MERCURIO,
r 25 DEFENSE WITNESS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED

26 AS FOLLOWS:
r 27 Ill
28 Ill
r
r
l
2203
,
, J
2
3
4
Q.
A.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MS. MERCURIO.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
, 1
5 Q. HOW ARE YOU?

6 A. GOOD. TIRED.
7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING?
I OWN A CONCRETE CUTTING COMPANY.
l
9 Q. WHAT'S ITS NAME? l
10 A. CUT 'N CORE.
11 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
12 A. WE DO CONCRETE CUTTING. WE'RE UP AND DOWN THE
13 FREEWAY. WE'RE ON FREEWAY 15 RIGHT NOW DOING A LOT OF l
14 CUTTING AND BACKHOE WORK, AND WE'RE DOWN ON I-5 AND L,
l
15 AND JUST CUTTING AND BREAKING IT. WE'RE WORKING AT THE
,
,
16 NEW COURTHOUSE, CATTY-CORNERED.
~
17 Q. AND DO YOU DO DECO CUTTING?

18 A. WE DO EVERYTHING. WE DO ANYTHING FROM FLAT
19 SAWING TO CORE DRILLING TO DECO CUTTING.
20 Q. DO YOU KNOW MR. FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ? l
21
22
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
IS HE IN COURT TODAY?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES, HE IS.
CAN YOU PLEASE POINT TO HIM AND IDENTIFY A
l
25 PIECE OF CLOTHING HE IS WEARING. l
26 A. HE IS WEARING A BLUE SUIT OR A BLACK SUIT.
27 THE COURT: SHE HAS REFERRED TO MR. DOMINGUEZ. l
28 .MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
l
l
2204

3 A. MAY I REFER TO MY RECORDS?
4 Q. TO TELL US HOW YOU KNOW HIM?
5 A. NO. HE WORKED FOR ME, EXCUSE ME, BUT I WAS
6 GOING TO GO FOR THE DATE.
7 Q. IF I ASK YOU ABOUT A SPECIFIC DATE, WE'LL GO TO
8 YOUR RECORDS. BUT LET'S TRY AND NOT USE THOSE.
9 A. OKAY.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
HOW DO YOU KNOW MR. DOMINGUEZ?
I KNOW JOSE BECAUSE HE HAD WORKED AT CASPER

r"J 12 CONCRETE CUTTING BEFORE HE CAME TO WORK FOR ME. AND THE
I
13 ESTIMATOR THAT I HIRED HAD SAID THAT HE WAS A GOOD
r 14
15
WORKER, AND HE CAME TO WORK FOR US.
Q. WHAT DOES HE -- WHAT DID HE DO FOR YOU?
r 16
17
A. HE DID CONCRETE CUTTING AND CORING. HE DID DO
SOME JACKHAMMER WORK, BUT HE MOSTLY WAS THE ONE PERSON

[ 18 THAT DID DECO CUTTING.
19 Q. WHAT IS DECO CUTTING?

[ 20 A. DECO CUTTING WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE
[ 21 SIMILAR TO YOUR SQUARES THAT ARE UP HERE. A LOT OF
22 HIGH-LINE HOUSES IN RANCHO SANTA FE, FAIRBANKS RANCH,
[- 23 POUR. CONCRETE. A LOT OF DEPARTMENT STORES POUR CONCRETE
24 AND THEY'RE COLORED, AND THEN THEY WANT TO HAVE IT CUT

[ 25 INTO SQUARES OR TRIANGLES OR SOMETHING VERY, VERY
26 UNIQUE. AND THAT'S WHAT JOSE DID.

[ 27 Q. CAN ANYONE DO DECO CUTTING?
r 28 A. NO.
r
2205
1 Q. WHY NOT?
2 A. YOU WOULD HAVE TO -- YOU HAVE TO LAY IT OUT
3 VERY PRECISE, VERY MUCH SO LIKE THIS ROOM IS SQUARE,
4 THIS COULD BE LIKE A 30-BY-30, AND YOU WOULD CUT IT UP
5 INTO DIFFERENT SECTIONS AND PIECES AND MAKE SURE THAT IT
6 ALL CAME OUT IN SQUARES EVENLY.
7 Q. DOES IT REQUIRE KNOWLEDGE OF MATH, GEOMETRY,
8 THINGS LIKE THAT?
9 A. YES, IT DOES.
10 Q. HOW SO?
11 A. IF YOU HAD 30-BY-30 AND THEY WANTED YOU TO CUT
12 IT UP INTO, SAY, 16-INCHES SQUARES, IT MAY NOT BE ~
I
13 16-INCH SQUARES ALL THE WAY THROUGH, SO YOU'D HAVE TO
14 COME UP WITH THE WIDTH OF A BLADE IN A SECTION AND
15 CONSIDER THAT AS TO HOW MANY CUTS YOU WOULD HAVE AND HOW
16 MANY SQUARES YOU WOULD END UP WITH SO EVERYTHING WOULD
17 BE UNIFORM.
18 Q. WHAT KIND OF EQUIPMENT DO YOU USE TO DO DECO
19 CUTTING?
20
21
A.
Q.
WE USE A FLAT SAW.
WHAT'S A FLAT SAW? , i
!
22 A. IT'S ABOUT A 1,000 POUND PIECE OF EQUIPMENT

23 THAT IT'S A WALK-BEHIND, AND YOU PUT BLADES ON IT
24 ANYWHERE FROM 14 INCH IN DIAMETER UP TO, SAY, 42 INCH IN
~
25 DIAMETER. 1
26 Q. HOW LONG DID MR. DOMINGUEZ DO DECO CUTTING FOR

27 YOU? AND IF YOU NEED TO REFER TO YOUR NOTES TO REFRESH l
28 YOUR RECOLLECTION --
l
l J
2206
1 A. I WOULD SAY FROM THE DAY HE STARTED WORKING FOR

2 ME, WHICH, I BELIEVE, WAS IN 2000 MARCH OF 2000.
3 Q. AND HOW LONG DID HE WORK FOR YOU FOR?
4 A. HE WORKED FOR ME UNTIL 2008, THE END OF 2008.
5 Q. SO EIGHT YEARS.
6 A. UH-HUH.
7 Q. HOW WOULD YOU RATE HIS JOB PERFORMANCE IN DECO
8 CUTTING?
9 A. HE WAS A VERY, VERY GOOD CUTTER, VERY GOOD
("11W1 10 CUTTER.
i
11 Q. HOW WOULD YOU RATE HIS OVERALL PERFORMANCE?

12 A. VERY GOOD. VERY GOOD.
13 Q. WHY?
r 14
15
A. HE HAD PROBABLY -- HE HAD A DEMEANOR WHEN HE
WALKED ON-SITE, HE WOULD WALK UP TO THE CONTRACTOR,

r! 16 SHAKE THEIR HAND AND SAY, "HI, I'M JOSE AND I'M HERE TO
r 17
18
DO YOUR WORK." AND HE GOT A RAPPORT WITH EACH AND EVERY
ONE OF THESE CONTRACTORS, AND HE BECAME A VERY REQUESTED
r 19
20
CUTTER.
Q.
HE DID VERY, VERY GOOD WORK.
HOW MANY HOURS A WEEK DID HE WORK?
[ 21 A. HE COULD WORK ANYWHERE FROM 30 TO 50.
22 Q. AND WHAT WAS HIS WAGES? HOW MUCH DID HE MAKE?
r 23
24
A. MAY I REFER TO MY NOTES?

26 THE WITNESS: IN, SAY, 2000, THEY EARNED

[ 27 APPROXIMATELY $21.63 AN HOUR ON UP THROUGH 2008 WAS
r 28 $29.46, PLUS YOUR BENEFIT PACKAGE OF YOUR HEALTH AND
r
2207
1 WELFARE AND ANYTHING THAT GOES ALONG WITH THE LABORERS'

2 UNION. HE WAS A MEMBER OF LOCAL 89.
3 Q. THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD WAGE, RIGHT?
4 A. YES, IT IS. IT'S EVEN BETTER NOW.
5 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT UU, PHOTOGRAPH OF UNION
6 CARD, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
8 Q. APPROACHING AND SHOWING YOU DEFENSE UU, WHAT IS
9 THAT MS. MERCURIO?
10 A. THIS IS A LABORER'S CARD THAT WHEN A BUSINESS
11 AGENT MAY COME AROUND THAT THEY WOULD SHOW THAT THEY ARE
12 AN ACTIVE PERSON IN THE UNION. ~
I
13 Q. AND WHAT UNION IS THIS?

A. THIS IS LABORERS' LOCAL 89 ON HOME AVENUE. ~
14 I
15 Q. AND WHOSE LABORER OR UNION CARD IS THAT?

~
16 A. THIS IS JOSE'S: FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ. I
17 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS HE A MEMBER OF THAT

18 UNION?
19 A. YES, HE WAS.
20 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS VV AND WW, PHOTOGRAPH
21 OF DEFENDANT AT WORK, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
23 Q. SHOWING YOU WW AND VV, DEFENSE EXHIBITS.
24 A. YES.
25 Q. FIRST VV, WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE? l
26 A. THIS IS A PICTURE OF JOSE CUTTING ALONG I
27 BELIEVE IT'S ENCINITAS BOULEVARD AND USING A VERY LARGE l
28 BLADE AND JUST CUTTING AWAY.
l
l
2208
1 Q. AND THE NEXT EXHIBIT?

2 A. I THINK HE FOUND OUT THAT SOMEBODY WAS TAKING
3 HIS PICTURE AND HE LOOKED OVER. AND I KNOW THAT IT WAS
4 HIS SAW, BECAUSE HE HAD THE LITTLE JACK IN THE BOX.
5 Q. DO YOU SEE HIS FACIAL HAIR IN THAT PICTURE?
6 A. HE HAD A LITTLE GOATEE.
7 Q. WITH REGARD TO THAT GOATEE, IS THAT HOW YOU
8 REMEMBER HIM?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID HE ALWAYS HAVE A GOATEE, THROUGH YOUR

i
11 RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM?
r
I
I
12 A. OH, I WOULD IMAGINE THAT PROBABLY I COULD SAY
13 YES AND NO. EVERYBODY CHANGED.
r 14
15
Q. OKAY.
JUST WORK?
DO YOU KNOW HIM PERSONALLY AS WELL, NOT
r
I
16 A. MAY I ASK HOW YOU WOULD DESCRIBE PERSONALLY?
l
r 17
18
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HIS FAMILY?
YES, I DO.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT IS HIS WIFE'S NAME?
NATALIE.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW THE KIDS' NAMES?
YES.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT IS IT?
THE OLDEST ONE IS JOSE, AND HE'LL BE 13, AND
r 25 THE NEXT ONE IS DANNY, 10, AND ALEAH IS ABOUT 7.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
HOW DO YOU KNOW HIS FAMILY?
WE HAD A LOT OF COMPANY FUNCTIONS: CHRISTMAS
r 28 PARTIES, PICNICS, SOFTBALL GAMES.
r
2209
1 Q. DID YOU OBSERVE HIM AROUND CO-WORKERS, FAMILY

2 AND FRIENDS QUITE OFTEN?
3 A. YES, I DID.
4 Q. HOW CLOSE WERE YOU WITH HIM?
5 A. I WOULD SAY CLOSE ENOUGH TO FEEL COMFORTABLE
6 FOR HIM TO HAVE KEYS TO MY SHOP. AND THE AMOUNT OF
7 EQUIPMENT AND WHAT I STORE IN MY SHOP IS WORTH ABOUT
8 RIGHT NOW, ABOUT 3- OR $4 MILLION. AT THAT TIME IT WAS
9 ABOUT TWO AND A HALF MILLION DOLLARS.
10 Q. AND HE HAD ACCESS TO THIS?
11 A. YES, HE DID.
12 Q. YOU SAID YOU KNEW HIM SINCE ABOUT 2000. THAT'S ~
I
13 ABOUT, WHAT, 11 YEARS NOW, RIGHT?

14 A. YES.
15 Q. AND REALLY UP UNTIL 2008 OR 2007 IS WHEN YOU
P9
I
16 WERE AROUND HIM A LOT, RIGHT? I
;
17 A. I'VE ALWAYS BEEN AROUND HIM.

18
19
20
Q.
A.
NOW, HAVE YOU FORMED AN OPINION AS TO HIS
CHARACTER DURING THAT TIME?
YES, I WOULD SAY I HAVE.
, )
21 Q. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IF I ASKED YOU WHAT HIS

22 CHARACTER FOR VIOLENCE IS? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING
23 LIKE THAT? l
24 A. NEVER HAVE I SEEN HIM VIOLENT. IT IS NOT IN
j
25 HIS DEMEANOR. J
26 Q. MS. MERCURIO, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE CHARGES ARE
27 IN THIS CASE? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
2210
1 Q. ARE YOU SURPRISED TO LEARN ABOUT THEM?

2 A. VERY SURPRISED.
3 Q. WHY?
4 A. IT IS -- AS I SAID BEFORE, I JUST DON'T FEEL AS

~
I 5 THOUGH THIS IS A CHARACTER THAT JOSE HAS IN HIM. HE IS
6 A VERY WARM, LOVING PERSON, AND I TRUSTED HIM WITH
7 EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE WORKED SO HARD FOR IN MY

8 BUSINESS.
9 AND BEING A WOMAN IN BUSINESS, I RELIED A LOT
10 UPON THE MEN THAT WORKED WITH ME, AND THE GIRLS, AND I
11 DON'T REALLY HAVE EMPLOYEES, I HAVE CO-WORKERS. HE
r
I
12 WOULD COME TO WORK IF HE HAD TO AT 3:00 IN THE MORNING,
13 AND HE WOULD WORK A DOUBLE SHIFT IF HE HAD TO. HE WAS
r 14
15
JUST A VERY, VERY GOOD WORKER.
Q. ARE THE CHARGES CONSISTENT WITH THE CHARACTER

16 AS YOU KNOW HIM?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
NO, NOT AS I KNOW HIM, NO.
MS. MERCURIO, WHAT IF I TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD
r 19
20
GANG TATTOOS?
A.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?
I WOULD FIRST SAY THAT I WAS -- I AM NOT AWARE
r I
21
22
OF THEM.
Q. MS. MERCURIO, WHAT IF I TOLD YOU THAT
r 23
24
MR. DOMINGUEZ, ABOUT SIX YEARS -- SEVEN YEARS AGO,
2004, WENT INTO A 7-ELEVEN; HIS FRIEND ENDED UP STARTING

IN
r 25 A FIGHT, AND HE ENDED UP BEING INVOLVED IN THAT FIGHT;
r 26
27
ENDING UP PUNCHING SOMEBODY AND WAS LATER CONVICTED OF
ASSAULT WITH DEADLY FORCE, A FELONY.
r 28 WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR OPINION OF HIM?
r
2211
1 A. NO. BUT I REALLY -- AND I DIDN'T KNOW THAT

2 THAT WAS
3 Q. YOU NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE, RIGHT?
4 A. NO, I DIDN'T. AND WE DO BACKGROUND CHECKS.
5 Q. AND, LIKE I SAID, YOU SAID THE CHARGES ARE NOT
6 CONSISTENT WITH HIS CHARACTER.
7 A. NO.
8 Q. KNOWING THAT, DOES THAT CHANGE YOUR OPINION?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. ONE LAST QUESTION, MS. MERCURIO: IF YOU COULD,
11 WOULD YOU HIRE MR. DOMINGUEZ BACK?
12 A. YES, I WOULD. I REALLY COULD USE AN
13
14
EXPERIENCED SAW CUTTER RIGHT NOW.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. NOTHING FURTHER.
, I

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION ~
i
!
18 BY MR. TROCHA:
19 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ DIDN'T TELL YOU HE IS A
20
21
22
CONVICTED FELON?
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU HIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE CONVICTED OF FELONIES?
, I
~
23 A. LET ME SEE IF I CAN REPHRASE THIS. I
j
24 Q. LET ME RE-ASK THE QUESTION SO I DON'T PUT YOU

25 IN A CORNER.
26 A. OKAY.
27 Q. DO YOU WANT TO HIRE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FELONIES ON l
28 THEIR RECORD?
1 J
1
f%1
i
2212
1 A. WE DO NOT.
2 Q. HAVE YOU IN THE PAST?
3 A. NOT WITH OUR KNOWLEDGE.
4 Q. SO IF THIS IS SOMETHING YOU KNOW, THAT PERSON
5 IS MOST LIKELY NOT GETTING HIRED?
6 A. CORRECT.
7 Q. DO YOU HIRE GANG MEMBERS?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. WHY NOT?
10 A. I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY THAT'S IN A GANG THAT DOES
11 THIS KIND OF WORK, BECAUSE THEY'RE USUALLY UP ALL NIGHT
($!
i
12 AND OUT ALL NIGHT AND NOT -- THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY
i
13 TO WORK ALL DAY LONG.

14 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE NAME SHELLTOWN 38TH
15 STREET?
i'
; 16 A. I BELIEVE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO ME ONCE BEFORE
17 ABOUT IT.
r 18 Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU HEARD ABOUT IT AT
r
1
19 THAT TIME TOO.
20 A. YES.
r 21
22
Q.
STREET?
MR. DOMINGUEZ NEVER TALKED ABOUT SHELLTOWN 38TH
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
LAST TIME YOU ALSO SAW SOME PHOTOGRAPHS,
r 25 CORRECT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
GIVE ME ONE SECOND, MS. MERCURIO.
r
2213

2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. YOU MENTIONED YOU MET MR. DOMINGUEZ'S FAMILY.
4 HAVE YOU EVER MET ANY OF HIS FRIENDS?
5 A. NO.
6 Q. I'M GOING TO BE SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 231.
7 DO YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
8 THE COURT: FEEL FREE TO STEP DOWN AND STAND IN
9 FRONT OF THE SCREEN IF YOU LIKE, MA'AM.
10 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
11 YES, I DO.
12 BY MR. TROCHA: .., I
I
13 Q. HE IS THE MAN IN THE HAT WITH THE INSIGNIA ON

14 IT? 'i
15
16
A.
Q.
YES.
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE AROUND
, I
I
17 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT, MS. MERCURIO. THAT'S ALL
20 I'LL BE ASKING ABOUT THAT.
21 THE CONVICTION THAT MR. SPEREDELOZZI BROUGHT ~I
22 UP, DO YOU KNOW HOW THAT FIGHT STARTED?

'i
,
23 A. NO, I DON'T.
1
24 Q. DO YOU KNOW THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ AND HIS FRIEND
25 FOLLOWED THREE PEOPLE INTO A 7-ELEVEN DOWN IN NATIONAL 1
26 CITY?
l
27
28
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU KNOW THAT HIS FRIEND WAS ARMED WITH A ,
,_;
1
2214
1 BILLIARD BALL AND STRUCK TWO OF THE MEN WITH IT, ONE IN
2 THE HEAD?
3 A. NO.
4 Q. DO YOU KNOW THAT DURING THIS TIME MR. DOMINGUEZ

5 WAS FIGHTING THE THIRD PERSON AND PUNCHING HIM IN THE
6 FACE BACK BY A BEVERAGE COOLER?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. DID YOU KNOW THAT WHEN THEY RAN OUT, ONE OF

9 THEM WAS HEARD YELLING "SHELLTOWN"?
r
l
10
11
A.
Q.
NO.
DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A PERSON WHO HAS A
r 12
13
CHARACTER FOR NONVIOLENCE?
A. THE PERSON THAT YOU'RE SPEAKING OF THAT IS
r 14
15
STATING THIS?
Q. THE PERSON -- MR. DOMINGUEZ -- WHO IS ASSISTING

16 HIS FRIEND IN ASSAULTING THREE PEOPLE IN THE 7-ELEVEN.
17 A. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER THAT, BECAUSE I AM

r 18 NOT AWARE OF -- I WAS NEVER AWARE OF THOSE
r 19
20
CIRCUMSTANCES.
Q. LET'S JUST TAKE MR. DOMINGUEZ'S NAME OUT OF
r 21
22
THAT SITUATION.
IF YOU HEARD TWO PEOPLE WENT INTO A 7-ELEVEN
r 23
24
AND ASSAULTED THREE PEOPLE INSIDE, ONE OF THEM WITH A
WEAPON, THE OTHER ONE WITH HIS FISTS, AND THEN RAN OUT
r 25 YELLING THE NAME OF A GANG, WOULD YOU SAY ANY OF THOSE
r 26
27
PEOPLE HAVE A CHARACTER FOR NONVIOLENCE?
A. YOU'RE GETTING ME CONFUSED. A CHARACTER FOR
r 28 NONVIOLENCE? I WOULD ASSUME THAT THE PERSON COULD BE OR
r
2215
1 WOULD HAVE A VIOLENT NATURE, OR ONE OF THEM WOULD. BUT

2 WHEN YOU SAY "SHELLTOWN," I HAVE ONLY SEEN THAT ON THE
3 MAP.
4 Q. IF WE ASSUME FOR A MOMENT THAT SHELLTOWN IS
5 ALSO THE NAME OF A GANG
6 A. THAT I DID NOT KNOW.
7 Q. WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR OPINION?
8 A. IT POSSIBLY COULD, YES.
9 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, MS. MERCURIO.
11
12
THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO. , i
13 THE COURT: MS. MERCURIO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
~
14 COMING TO COURT AND FOR WAITING FOR US. I APPRECIATE I
I
15
16
THAT VERY MUCH. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
LEAVE, AND GOOD DAY TO YOU, MA'AM.
YOU'RE FREE TO
, i
17 THE WITNESS: GOOD DAY.

""1 I
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: MAY I HAVE ONE SECOND, YOUR
20 HONOR.
l l
21 THE COURT: YOU MAY. ~

!
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WE'RE GOING TO CALL LARRY

23 THOMPSON. l
28 HELP YOU GOD?
l J
l
2216
1 THE WITNESS: YES.


4 THE COURT: UP HERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, SIR.
5 GOOD DAY TO YOU.
6 THE WITNESS: HI.

9 THE WITNESS: LARRY ALTON THOMPSON,

10 T-H-0-M-P-S-0-N.
11 THE COURT: AND WILL YOU SPELL ALTON, PLEASE,
r 12
13
FOR US.
THE WITNESS: A-L-T-0-N.
r 14
15
THE COURT: AS IT SOUNDS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
THANK YOU, SIR.
i 16 LARRY ALTON THOMPSON,
r 18 AS FOLLOWS:
r 19
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 21
22
Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. THOMPSON.
DO YOU KNOW SUSAN MERCURIO?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
WHO IS SHE?
r 25 A. SHE'S MY BOSS.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHERE DO YOU WORK?
CUT 'N CORE.
r 28 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
r
2217
1 A. A CONCRETE CUTTING DEMOLITION COMPANY HERE IN

2 SAN DIEGO.
3 Q. WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THEM?
4 A. CHIEF ESTIMATOR, VICE PRESIDENT, EVERYTHING
5 UNDER THE SUN.
6 Q. YOU WORK A LOT OF HOURS?
7 A. A LOT OF HOURS. WAY TOO MANY.
8 Q. DO YOU KNOW FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
9 A. YES, I DO.
11 A. USED TO BE ONE OF OUR EMPLOYEES.
12 Q. COULD YOU PLEASE, IF YOU SEE HIM IN COURT
13 TODAY, IDENTIFY HIM BY POINTING AT HIM AND SAYING WHAT
14 HE'S WEARING.
15 A. HE'S WEARING A BLACK SUIT, WHITE SHIRT AND A
=,
16 BLUE TIE. 1
J
17 THE COURT: HE HAS REFERRED TO MR. DOMINGUEZ.

20 Q. HOW WELL DO YOU KNOW HIM? l
21 A. AS A CO-WORKER, QUITE WELL. HE'S WORKED FOR US
22 FOR I THINK UP TO ABOUT NINE YEARS, AND BEFORE THEN HE
~
23 WORKED AT CASPER COMPANY WITH ME.
J
24 Q. YOU WORKED AT CASPER AS WELL?
26 Q. HOW LONG DID HE WORK WITH YOU AT CASPER?
27 A. I WAS THERE SIX AND A HALF YEARS. I'D SAY l
28 PROBABLY THREE OF THAT.
l
l
2218
1 Q. WHAT DID HE DO FOR CUT 'N CORE?

2 A. SAW CUTTER, CORE DRILLER.
3 Q. LIKE DECO CUTTING?
4 A. YES.
r
;
5
6
Q.
A.
IS THAT A SUBSET OF WHAT HE DID?
YES. DECO CUTTING IS --YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT
7 CONSTANT ALL THE TIME. YOU KNOW, YOU GET A CUSTOMER
8 THAT POURS CONCRETE, AND DECO CUTTING IS WHEN THEY'RE
9 CUTTING PRECISE SQUARES INTO CONCRETE FOR DECORATION.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
HOW IS HIS JOB PERFORMANCE?
EXCELLENT.
r
I,
12
13
Q.
A.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
HE'S A GOOD WORKER, AND I COULD USE HIM RIGHT
r 14
15
NOW.
Q. CAN ANYBODY DO DECO CUTTING?

r 16 A. NO.
r 17
18
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
IT TAKES A PRETTY SKILLED PERSON TO REALLY,
r 19
20
REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
Q. AT CASPER, IS THAT WHERE HE LEARNED HOW TO DO
r 21 THAT?
22 A. I WOULD SAY HE DID A LITTLE OF THAT THERE, AND
r 23
24
MOST OF IT FOR US.
Q. AND IT TAKES A LOT OF PRACTICE, RIGHT?

F
I 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHO TAUGHT HIM?
NOT ME.
WAS IT YOU?
28 Q. ANOTHER DECO CUTTER?
r
2219
1 A. I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE GUYS KIND OF TOOK HIM

2 UNDER HIS WING AND KIND OF SHOWED HIM, AND I THINK HE'S
3 GOT THE KNOWLEDGE AND JUST TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF.
4 Q. MR. THOMPSON, DO YOU KNOW HIM PERSONALLY AS
5 WELL -- MR. DOMINGUEZ?
6 A. NOT PERSONALLY. I MEAN, WORK-WISE, YES.
7 Q. BUT YOU HAVE MET HIS WIFE?
8 A. YES. OH, YES.
9 Q. YOU'VE MET HIS CHILDREN?
10 A. YES, COMPANY FUNCTIONS.
11 Q. AND PARTIES LIKE COMPANY-RELATED PARTIES?
12 A. YES, CHRISTMAS PARTIES.
13 Q. YOU'VE SEEN HIM AROUND THESE PEOPLE?
14 A. OH, YES.
15 Q. AND YOU SEE HOW HE BEHAVES AROUND CO-WORKERS
~
16 AND THINGS LIKE THAT? \
17 A. YEAH. HE GETS ALONG WITH EVERYBODY.

18 Q. IS HE FUNNY, OR WHAT IS HIS PERSONALITY LIKE?
19 A. KIND OF QUIET SOMETIMES; SOMETIMES KIND OF
l
20
21
22
FUNNY.
Q.
A.
MAKE JOKES?
YEAH. NOT ANYTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY, JUST A
,
23 REGULAR WORKER.
l
24 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW HE USUALLY LOOKS AS FAR AS HAIR
25 AND FACIAL HAIR AND THINGS LIKE THAT? l
26 A. HE'D COME TO WORK WITH HIS SHIRT AND STUFF ON,
27 STUFF LIKE THAT, AND CLEAN CUT, YOU KNOW. EVERY ONCE IN
28 A WHILE HE MIGHT HAVE A SHORTER HAIRCUT THAN USUAL.
l
2220
~
I
i
1 Q. A SHAVED HEAD?
r 2 A. YEAH, I'VE SEEN HIM WITH A SHAVED HEAD, YEAH.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
DOES HE EVER HAVE A GOATEE OR MUSTACHE?
NO, I DON'T THINK SO.
r 5 Q. TAKE A LOOK AT THE EXHIBITS IN FRONT OF YOU,
l
6 MR. THOMPSON.
7 WHO IS THAT? AND WHAT EXHIBIT ARE YOU LOOKING
8 AT? IT'S ON THE TAG RIGHT THERE.
9 A. LET'S SEE. EXHIBIT --WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL
r 10
11
THAT?
Q. EXHIBIT VV, DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS?
r 12
13
A. THAT'S JOSE CUTTING UP ON ENCINITAS BOULEVARD
AS A SAW CUTTER.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT DOES HIS FACIAL HAIR LOOK LIKE THERE?
GOT A GOATEE AND MUSTACHE.
rl 16 Q. AND ON EXHIBIT WW, DO YOU SEE WHO THAT IS?
17 A. SAME. JOSE.
r 18 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THIS JOB?
r 19
20
A. OH, I KNOW THE JOB BECAUSE I'M THE ESTIMATOR
THAT TAKES AND BIDS THE JOB TO THE CUSTOMER. THE
r 21
22
CUSTOMER IS MY CUSTOMER.
Q. THIS IS ON, WHAT, THE COAST HIGHWAY?
r 23
24
A. YEAH. THIS WAS ON HIGHWAY 101.
FOUR-POINT PIPELINE.
IT WAS FOR A
r 25 Q. AND MR. DOMINGUEZ WORKED THAT JOB?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
OH, YES.
HOW DOES HIS FACIAL HAIR LOOK WHEN HE WAS
r 28 WORKING THAT JOB?
r
2221
1 A. WELL, THAT'S WHAT I SAY. HE'S GOT A GOATEE AND

2 MUSTACHE. I DIDN'T PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION TO HIM. I'D
3 SAY, "GET ON THE JOB AND LET'S GO TO WORK."
4 Q. OVER THE TIME YOU'VE KNOWN HIM, WHICH IS
5 APPROXIMATELY NOW 12 OR 13 YEARS?
6 A. YEAH. I'VE BEEN AT CUT 'N CORE FOR 11, AND WE
7 WERE TOGETHER AT CASPER, SO I'D WOULD SAY 12, 13 YEARS,
8 YES.
9 Q. HAVE YOU COME TO AN OPINION ABOUT HIS
10 CHARACTER?
11
12
A.
Q.
OH, YEAH. YEAH.
WHAT IS THAT OPINION? , I
,
)
13 A. I THINK HE'S A HARD WORKER, FAMILY MAN, REALLY
14 TAKES CARE -- I MEAN REALLY, IN SO MANY WORDS, HE COMES
15
16
TO DO HIS JOB, TAKES CARE OF HIS FAMILY.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM BE VIOLENT?
, J
17 A. NO.
18 Q. HAVE YOU EVER KNOWN HIM TO BE VIOLENT? l
19 A. NO.
20 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE CURRENT CHARGES ARE IN l
21 THIS CASE?
22 A. YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
ARE THEY CONSISTENT WITH HIS CHARACTER?
I'M GOING TO SAY NO.
l
25 Q. WHY? l
26 A. BECAUSE I'VE NEVER SEEN HIM IN THAT SITUATION.
27 I MEAN, AT WORK HE'S ALWAYS BEEN GOOD; AT PARTIES HE'S l
28 ALWAYS BEEN GOOD. I'VE NEVER SEEN HIM VIOLENT AT ALL.
l
l
r
I
2222
r
I
1 Q. WHAT IF I TOLD YOU, MR. THOMPSON, THAT HE GOT

~
I 2 INTO A FIGHT BACK IN 2004 IN A 7-ELEVEN AND ENDED UP
3 PUNCHING SOMEBODY. WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR OPINION?

F
I
4 A. NO, NOT AT ALL, NO, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK HE'S
~ 5 THE TYPE OF GUY TO GO AROUND AND POP SOMEBODY JUST TO BE

l
I.
6 POPPING SOMEBODY.
r-
I 7 Q. WHAT IF I TOLD YOU HE WENT INTO A 7-ELEVEN WITH
8 HIS FRIEND, WHO THREW A BILLIARD BALL AT SOMEBODY, A

rm
9 FIGHT BROKE OUT, MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS INVOLVED IN THAT
r
10 FIGHT, ENDED UP PUNCHING SOMEBODY AND THEN LATER GOT
11 CONVICTED FOR ASSAULT WITH DEADLY FORCE, WOULD THAT
r 12
13
CHANGE YOUR OPINION NOW?
A. NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY?
I WOULD THINK THAT HE WAS EITHER DEFENDING

r 16 SOMEBODY OR, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, HE WASN'T STANDING BACK
17 AND WATCHING SOME GUY GETTING BEAT UP OR SOMETHING. I
r 18 WOULD JUST THINK HE WOULD BE INVOLVED, IF HE WAS
r 19
20
INVOLVED, TRYING TO HELP SOMEBODY OUT.
Q. MR. THOMPSON, IF YOU COULD, WOULD YOU WORK WITH
r 21
22
MR. DOMINGUEZ AGAIN?
A. YEAH. I TOLD YOU, I COULD USE HIM.
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
THANK YOU.
r 25 MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY QUESTION.
r 26
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 28 Q. MR. THOMPSON, TO CUT RIGHT TO IT, A PERSON'S
r
2223
1 ABILITY TO OPERATE A WET SAW OR A CORE DRILL OR OTHER

2 TOOLS YOU USE IN YOUR PROFESSION, DOES THAT MEAN THEY'RE
3 A NONVIOLENT PERSON?
4 A. NO.
5 Q. THE FACT THAT THEY'RE A GOOD EMPLOYEE, DOES ~
I
6 THAT MEAN THEY CANNOT BE A GANG MEMBER?

7 A. A GOOD EMPLOYEE AND BE A GANG MEMBER?
8 Q. YES.
9 A. WHAT HE DOES IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE IS HIS
10 BUSINESS, NOT MINE.
11 Q. SO YOU CAN SEE A CLEAR DIVISION BETWEEN A
12 PERSON AT WORK AND WHAT A PERSON DOES IN THEIR OFF
13 HOURS.
14 A. THAT'S TRUE.
15
16
Q. DID YOU KNOW WHAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS DOING ON
HIS OFF HOURS?
,
17 A. NO. HE WORKED FOR ME, AND WHEN HE WAS AT WORK
~
I
18 FOR ME, HE WORKED. i
19 Q. DID YOU CARE WHAT HE WAS DOING ON HIS OFF HOURS

20 AS LONG AS HE WAS PERFORMING WELL AT WORK?
1 J
,
21 A. NO, NOT REALLY.
22 Q. YOUR MAIN CONCERN WITH MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS HOW --
l
23 WAS HIS QUALITY OF WORK, CORRECT?
J
24 A. THAT'S CORRECT, AND HOW HE COULD MAKE MONEY FOR
25 THE COMPANY. l
26 Q. BEYOND THAT, YOU COULD CARE LESS ABOUT ANYTHING
27 ELSE. l
28 A. NO, I LIKE HIM AS A FRIEND, BUT --
l 1
l
r 2224
1 Q. OKAY. WE TALKED ABOUT PARTIES THAT YOU WENT

r 2 TO.
r
i
3
4 PARK?
DID YOU EVER GO TO PARTIES DOWN AT OCEAN VIEW
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
GIVE ME A SECOND, MR. THOMPSON.
r 7
8
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A PICTURE, PEOPLE'S 231,
ON THE TV BEHIND YOU. DID YOU EVER GO TO THAT PARTY,
9 MR. THOMPSON?
10 A. NO.
r 11 Q. DID YOU EVER GO TO A PARTY AT THAT HOUSE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU WERE NEVER INVITED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I GUESS NOT. HE WORKS FOR ME, OKAY?
IN TERMS OF THIS FIGHT YOU HEARD ABOUT, YOU

r
l
16 JUST ASSUMED THAT HE WAS HELPING SOMEONE OUT THAT NEEDED
17
r
HELP, RIGHT?
18 A. I WOULD PRESUME SO, YEAH. I MEAN, I WOULDN'T
r 19
20
STAND BACK AND WATCH SOMEBODY KICKING THE CRAP OUT OF MY
BUDDY.
r 21
22
Q. SO IF YOU WERE IN A LOCATION WITH TWO FRIENDS,
TWO GUYS CAME IN AND ONE STARTED ASSAULTING YOUR FRIENDS
r 23
24
FOR NO REASON, YOU WOULD HELP OUT YOUR FRIENDS, RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
r 25 Q. AND WHILE YOU'RE WATCHING THIS HAPPEN, THE
r
26 SECOND OF THESE TWO PEOPLE STARTED ASSAULTING YOU. WHAT
27 WOULD YOU THINK OF THAT SITUATION?
r 28 A. FIGHT BACK.
r
2225
1 Q. YOU'RE DEFENDING YOURSELF, RIGHT?

2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. THESE PEOPLE ARE ATTACKING YOU FOR NO REASON,
4 RIGHT?
5 A. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, YEAH.
6 Q. IN THIS SITUATION, CORRECT?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. IS -- WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE
""1
9 DOING THE ATTACKING IN THIS SITUATION? ARE THEY VIOLENT I
10 OR NONVIOLENT PEOPLE?
11 A. I WOULD SAY THAT THEY WERE PROBABLY -- I WOULD
12 SAY VIOLENT, I GUESS.
13 Q. WHAT IF AFTER THESE PEOPLE ATTACKED YOU THEY
14 YELLED OUT THE NAME OF THEIR GANG? WOULD THAT CHANGE
15 YOUR OPINION IN ANY WAY?
16 A. AS FAR AS BEING VIOLENT OR NONVIOLENT?
17 Q. RIGHT.
18 A. I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT A GANG MEMBER. I
19 COULDN'T TELL YOU.
20 Q. WOULD YOU THINK AT THAT POINT MAYBE THE ATTACK l
21 WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE GANG MEMBERS? 1
j
22 A. I WOULD HAVE NO COMMENT ON THAT. I REALLY
23 DON'T.
,.,
J
24 Q. YOU'VE NEVER BEEN ATTACKED BY GANG MEMBERS.
25 A. NO. NO. l
26 Q. WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU TO LEARN IN THAT
27 SITUATION THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ONE OF THE TWO PEOPLE l
28 WHO WAS ATTACKING YOUR GROUP AS OPPOSED TO BEING WITH
l
l
r 2226
i
I
1 YOU AND DEFENDING YOU AND YOUR FRIEND?
r 2 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE
r 3
4
PRIOR --
r 5
6
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, SIR?
THE WITNESS: NO. YOU BETTER TRY THAT ONE MORE
r 7 TIME.
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. IN THIS SITUATION WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, WHERE YOU

10 AND YOUR FRIENDS ARE BEING ASSAULTED BY TWO OF THE
r 11 PEOPLE, YOU SAID YOU ASSUMED MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ON YOUR
~ 12 SIDE IN THAT SITUATION, RIGHT?

)
13 A. IF I WAS -- IF I WAS THERE, I WOULD THINK JOSE
rt 14 WOULD BE ON MY SIDE, YES.
15 Q. WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU THAT IN THAT SITUATION
r 16
17
AND IN THAT 2004 PRIOR, HE WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE?
A. THAT WOULD SURPRISE ME, YES.
r l 18 Q. WOULD THAT BE AGAINST THE CHARACTER THAT YOU
19 HAVE AN OPINION OF?
r 20 A. YES.
21 Q. I MEAN, IN THAT SITUATION THAT WE'VE GIVEN YOU,

22 DO YOU THINK YOU'VE DONE ANYTHING WRONG BY DEFENDING
r 23
24
YOURSELF?
A. I THINK I WOULD BE TRYING TO DEFEND MYSELF,
r 25 WHOEVER IT WAS, YOU KNOW?
r 26
27
Q. WOULD YOU ADMIT IT THAT YOU WERE INVOLVED IN A
CRIME FOR DEFENDING YOURSELF?
r 28 A. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION.
r
2227
1 Q. SURE. YOU'RE BEING ATTACKED WITH YOUR FRIENDS ,., I
2 AND YOU'RE DEFENDING YOURSELF.

3 DO YOU THINK YOU'VE COMMITTED A CRIME?
4 A. NO, NOT IF I WAS DEFENDING MYSELF.
5 Q. SO OUT OF THIS SAME SITUATION, MR. DOMINGUEZ
6 WAS CONVICTED OF A FELONY ASSAULT, RIGHT?
7 A. THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
8 Q. HE NEVER TOLD YOU?
9 A. NO.
13
, J
15
16
Q. MR. THOMPSON, YOU DON'T KNOW ANY OF THE FACTS
ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2004, RIGHT?
, I
1
17 A. NO.
18 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.
19 A. NO.
20 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER MR. DOMINGUEZ THREW THE l
21 FIRST PUNCH OR WHETHER IT WAS HIS FRIEND OR WHETHER IT
22 WAS SOMEBODY ELSE, RIGHT?
23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHEN I ASK YOU IF MR. DOMINGUEZ IS A NONVIOLENT
l
25 PERSON, DO YOU THINK I'M ASKING YOU IF HE'S EVER BEEN l
26 INVOLVED IN A FIGHT OR NOT?
27 A. NO. YOU'RE JUST ASKING ME WHAT I BELIEVE HIS l
28 CHARACTER IS.
l
l
r 2228
rI
1 Q. DO YOU THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE WITHIN THE
rI 2 SCOPE OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN SOMEBODY WHO GETS IN A
r 3
4
FISTFIGHT VERSUS SOMEBODY WHO IS WILLING TO SHOOT AND
KILL SOMEBODY? DO YOU THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE
r 5
6
THERE?
A. I WOULD THINK SO, YEAH. I MEAN, A FISTFIGHT IS
r 7
8
SOMETHING THAT MIGHT ESCALATE TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
DON'T KNOW. I'VE NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT.

I
r 9 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, MR. THOMPSON, DO YOU THINK IT
~
10 TAKES A DIFFERENT TYPE OF CHARACTER TO SHOOT SOMEBODY
t 11 VERSUS TO JUST GET IN A FISTFIGHT AT A CONVENIENCE
r
l~
12
13
STORE?
MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE
rt 14 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
15 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT MEANS YOU CAN ANSWER.

~
16 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. THIS DAY AND AGE,
t
17 IT'S HARD TO SAY.
r 19
20
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
r 21
22
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MR. THOMPSON, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE
r 23
24
CHARACTER OF A GANG MEMBER?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
r 25 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT IS.
26 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 27 Q. DO YOU THINK GANG MEMBERS ARE VIOLENT?
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
r
2229

~
I
2 THE WITNESS: SO I NEED TO ANSWER THAT ONE?

3 THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THE DEGREE OF
4 VIOLENCE INVOLVED IN GANG MEMBERS?
5 THE WITNESS: LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY: I DON'T
6 KNOW ANY OF THEM, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. WHAT YOU HEAR
7 ON THE NEWS, YOU KNOW, STUFF LIKE THAT, BUT, YOU KNOW,
8 TO REALLY PINPOINT SOMEBODY TO SAY, "HEY, THIS GUY IS A
~
9 GANG MEMBER, HE'S ROUGH, HE'S A BIKER, HE'S THIS, HE'S \
10 THAT," I MEAN YOU CAN GET TAGGED WITH ANYTHING, YOU ~
11
12
13
KNOW.
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WOULD YOU WANT TO HANG OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS?
, 1
14 A. NOT REALLY.
l
15
16
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: BRIEFLY.
, J
19 Q. YOU SAY YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T WANT TO HANG
20 OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS, RIGHT?
l )
21
22
A. LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY: I WOULDN'T GO DOWN AND
SAY, "HEY, WE'RE GOING TO GO DO THIS TODAY," NO.
l
23
24
Q. BUT IF YOU HAD A FRIEND AND YOU LEARNED HE WAS
IN A GANG --
l
25 A. AND IF HE WAS IN A GANG AND HE WAS A CLOSE l
26 FRIEND, YEAH, I WOULD GO TO DINNER WITH HIM AND STUFF
27 LIKE THAT. BUT, YOU KNOW -- l
28 Q. WOULD YOU SAY, "HEY, I CAN'T HANG OUT WITH YOU
l
l J
r 2230
r
1 ANYMORE BECAUSE YOU'RE IN A GANG"?
l( 2 A. NO, I WOULDN'T DO THAT.
~
I
!
4 THE COURT: OKAY. MR. THOMPSON, THANK YOU FOR
r 5 COMING TO COURT, SIR. YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU'RE FREE

l
6 TO LEAVE. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
r
I
8 THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS THAT
r 9 YOU CAN START?
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I DO. WE CAN START IF YOU'D
~
! 11 LIKE.
12 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE.
~
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THE DEFENSE CALLS
r 14
15
CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
r
l
r 18 HELP YOU GOD?
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
YES.
r 21
22
THE WITNESS STAND.
THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. UP HERE, IF
r 23
24
YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
THE CLERK:
THANK YOU.
r 26
27
THE WITNESS:
M-A-R-T-I-N-E-Z.
CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ,
r
2231
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
~
I

3 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ,
5 AS FOLLOWS:
8 Q. MR. MARTINEZ, GOOD AFTERNOON.
~
9 A. GOOD AFTERNOON. I
10 Q. WE'RE GOING TO START. WE MIGHT NOT GET THAT

~
i
11 FAR, BUT LET'S START. OKAY?
,
J
12 DO YOU KNOW MR. FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
,
\
l
13 A. YES.
15
16
A.
Q.
I'VE MET HIM A WHILE BACK.
MR. MARTINEZ, ARE YOU OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A
, J

~
!
18 A. NO. }
19 Q. DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE?

20 A. YEAH. l
21 Q. PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD?
22 A. UH-HUH.
23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE A NICKNAME?
NO.
1
25 Q. DO YOU HAVE A NAME THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE l
26 YOUR NICKNAME?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. DO PEOPLE CALL YOU VANDAL?
l
l
r 2232
r 1 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF. NOBODY CALLS ME THAT.
r 2 Q. MR. MARTINEZ, AGAIN, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE
r 3
4
DEFENDANT?
A. I BOUGHT SOME PIT BULL PUPPIES FROM HIM A WHILE
r 5
6
BACK.
Q. AND THEN YOU BECAME FRIENDS WITH HIM?
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
I'M SORRY. YOU BOUGHT SOME WHAT?
PIT BULL PUPPIES.
r 10
11
Q. IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND IDENTIFYING HIM BY
POINTING AT HIM AND TELLING US WHAT HE'S IS WEARING.
r 12
13
A. WEARING THE BLACK SUIT WITH A BLUE TIE.
THE COURT: HE'S IDENTIFIED MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THANK YOU.
r 16
17
Q. WHAT DOES MR. DOMINGUEZ'S FACIAL HAIR USUALLY
LOOK LIKE?
18 A. HE'S CLEAN-SHAVED.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
DOES HE EVER HAVE A GOATEE OR MUSTACHE?
YEAH, SOMETIMES.
r
l
21 Q. HOW ABOUT HIS HAIR?
22 A. SHAVED.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
BALD?
UH-HUH.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
NOT A BUZZ CUT?
NO.
r 27 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A BUZZ CUT IS?
r 28 A. YEAH, LIKE NOT ALL THE WAY DOWN.
r
2233
1 Q. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

2
3
A.
Q.
SHAVED, YEAH.
DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED MOISES LOPEZ? ,
,
I
4 A. YES. 1
5 Q. WHO'S THAT?
6 A. IT WAS MY LITTLE BROTHER AND SISTER'S FRIEND.
7 Q. WHO ARE YOUR LITTLE BROTHERS? WHAT'S THEIR
8 NAMES.
9 A. CAROL AND RONALD. l
10 Q. HOW OLD IS RONALD?
11 A. I THINK HE'S LIKE 21. l
12 Q. HOW OLD IS CAROL?
13 A. 19 OR 18, I THINK. 1
14
15
Q.
A.
HOW OLD ARE YOU?
22.
l
16 Q. WHAT IS YOUR MOM'S NAME? l
17 A. ANNA.
18 Q. ANNA MARTINEZ?
19 A. UH-HUH.
20 Q. MOISES LOPEZ, HE WAS FRIENDS WITH YOUR l
21
22
BROTHERS?
A. UH-HUH.
1 j
23
24
Q.
A.
YOUR BROTHER AND YOUR SISTER?
YES.
l
25 Q. WERE YOU FRIENDS WITH HIM? l
26 A. I TALKED TO HIM A COUPLE TIMES AT MY HOUSE,
27 YES. l
28 Q. AT YOUR MOM'S HOUSE?
l
l
r 2234
r
1 A. UH-HUH.
r 2 Q. YOU DON'T LIVE WITH YOUR MOM ANYMORE.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
NO.
WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD DO YOU LIVE IN?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I LIVED ON 43RD STREET.
IS THAT IN SHELLTOWN?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
MR. MARTINEZ, DO YOU REMEMBER THE NIGHT MOISES
r 9 LOPEZ PASSED AWAY?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
WHAT WERE YOU DOING THAT NIGHT AROUND 7:00?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I WAS PROBABLY DRINKING AT A FRIEND'S HOUSE.
WHO WERE YOU WITH?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I WAS WITH ME AND SIRIA.
WAS MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH YOU?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH, A LITTLE BIT EARLIER WITH US, YES.
WHERE DID YOU GO?
18 A. WE WENT TO THE PARK.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT TIME?
PROBABLY AROUND 9:00.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHO DROVE YOU?
MY GIRLFRIEND DID.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
AND WHO WENT WITH YOU?
IT WAS ME AND MY GIRLFRIEND AND MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
AND YOUR GIRLFRIEND IS WHO?
SIRIA.
r 27 Q. SIRIA FORD?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2235
, I
1 Q. MR. MARTINEZ, YOU SAY AROUND 9:00. IS THAT AN

2 ESTIMATE OR IS THAT YOU'RE SURE?
3 A. IT'S PROBABLY AN ESTIMATE. ,., I
4 Q. THIS HAPPENED, AGAIN, TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO.

5 A. YES. ,., I
7
Q.
A.
WAS IT DARK WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
YES.
., 1
8
9
Q.
PARK?
WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE PARK, WHERE DID YOU
., l
10 A. WE PULLED UP IN A DIRT ALLEY.

1
11 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PROSECUTION EXHIBIT -- j
12 CAN YOU SEE WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 2,

13 MR. MARTINEZ?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY DON'T YOU STEP DOWN HERE FOR A SECOND.
l
16 WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
l
17 A. THE PARK.
18 Q. WHAT PARK?
19 A. MOUNTAIN VIEW.
20 THE COURT: MAY I ASK YOU TO TWO THINGS, l
21 PLEASE. YOU'RE DOING GREAT. STEP OVER HERE WITH YOUR
22 BACK TO ME AND FACE MR. SPEREDELOZZI WHEN YOU ANSWER THE
l
23
24
QUESTIONS SO THE JURORS CAN SEE THE MAP AROUND YOU; AND
THE SECOND THING, BIG VOICE. OKAY? BIG VOICE FOR THE
l
25 COURT REPORTER. l
28 Q. WHAT IS THIS BROWN THING THAT RUNS NORTH AND
l
l
r 2236
r
1 SOUTH THROUGH THE PARK THAT I'M INDICATING WITH MY PEN?
r 2 A. THAT WOULD BE THE DIRT ALLEY.
r 3
4
Q. AND WHEN YOU PARKED, WHERE DID YOU COME FROM?
YOU SAID YOU PARKED ON THE DIRT ALLEY RIGHT
r 5
6
THERE.
A. YEAH.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHERE ON THE DIRT ALLEY DID YOU PARK?
WE PULLED UP THIS WAY, CAME DOWN HERE OVER HERE
r 9 SOMEWHERE.
r 10
11
12
Q. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE WITNESS SAID HE
CAME IN THROUGH THE TOP PART OF THE DIRT ALLEY, DROVE
ALL THE WAY DOWN AND PARKED AT WHAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY
r 13 MARKED AS A RED DOT ON THE DIRT ALLEY.
r 14
15
A. YES.
THE COURT: THAT'S CORRECT. THAT'S WHAT HE
r 16
17
INDICATED.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT.
19 Q. ONCE YOU GOT TO THE PARK, WHAT DID YOU DO?
r 20 A. WELL, WE PULLED UP, AND WE ALREADY HAD BEER
r 21
22
WITH US, SO WE STARTED DRINKING INSIDE THE CAR, AND I
STARTED SMOKING A LITTLE BIT OF POT.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU WERE SMOKING WEED?
YEAH.
r 25 Q. WHO WAS SMOKING WITH YOU?

26 A. SIRIA.
r 27 Q. ANYBODY ELSE?
r 28 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS.
r
"'fI
]
2237
1 Q. OKAY. AND AFTER YOU SMOKED WEED, WHAT DID YOU ,., I
,
!
2 DO? J
3 A. WELL, WE STAYED THERE. AND THEN

4
5
6
MR. DOMINGUEZ'S GIRLFRIEND PULLED UP, SO HE WENT DOWN
THERE WITH HER, AND THEN ME AND SIRIA GOT OFF THE CAR
AND WE WERE DRINKING BEER BY THE CAR.
, 1
8
Q.
A.
YOU WERE STANDING BY THE ALLEY?
YEAH.
l
9 Q. DID YOU SEE MR. DOMINGUEZ WALK DOWN THE ALLEY? l
10 A. YES.
11 Q. ON PROSECUTION 2, WHICH DIRECTION DID HE WALK l
12 FROM WHERE THAT RED DOT IS?
13 A. DOWN TOWARDS THE STREET.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
DOWN TOWARDS
FRANKLIN.
l
16 Q. -- WHAT'S MARKED AS FRANKLIN ON THE EXHIBIT?
l
17 A. YES.
18 Q. YOU SAID HE MET HIS GIRLFRIEND, RIGHT? l
19 A. UH-HUH.
20 Q. HOW SOON AFTER YOU ARRIVED DID HIS GIRLFRIEND 1
21 ARRIVE?
22 A. PROBABLY LIKE 10 MINUTES LATER.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HER NAME?
DIANA.
l
25 Q. IS IT DIANA BANUELOS? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. HAD YOU SEEN HER BEFORE THAT NIGHT? l
28 A. THAT NIGHT, NO.
l
l
r 2238
r
l
1 Q. ARE YOU SURE YOU HADN'T MET HER BEFORE?
i 2 A. I MET HER BEFORE, BUT, I MEAN, LIKE IF I HAD
r 3
4
SEEN HER THAT NIGHT, NO, I HADN'T.
Q. LET ME CLARIFY THAT.
r 5
6 A.
BEFORE THAT NIGHT, HAD YOU MET MS. BANUELOS?
YES.
r 7
8
Q. BUT PRIOR TO THAT MOMENT AND WITHIN THAT SAME
DAY, YOU HADN'T SEEN HER.
r 9 A. NO.
r
10 Q. OKAY. WHEN MR. DOMINGUEZ WENT DOWN THE ALLEY
11 TO TALK TO MS. BANUELOS, WHAT DID IT APPEAR THEY WERE
r 12
13
DOING?
A. WELL, TO ME IT APPEARED LIKE THEY WERE ARGUING.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY?
BECAUSE I COULD SEE HAND GESTURES MOVING.
r 16 Q. HAND GESTURES?
r 17
18
A.
Q.
YEAH, LIKE --
WHO WAS MAKING THE HAND GESTURES?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
MR. DOMINGUEZ.
AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING DURING THIS TIME?
r 21
22
A. WELL, WE WERE RIGHT THERE WAITING TO SEE Ir HE
WAS GOING TO LEAVE WITH HER OR WHAT WAS HE GOING TO DO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
WERE YOU GUYS PLANNING ON STAYING?
WELL, AS SOON AS HE LEFT, AS SOON AS WE FIGURED
r 25 OUT WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO.
r 26 Q. WHAT WERE YOU GUYS PLANNING ON DOING, YOU AND
27 SIRIA?
r 28 A. JUST LEAVING.
r
'i i
J
2239
1 Q. AFTER MR. DOMINGUEZ LEFT?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHILE YOU WERE SITTING THERE WITH MS. FORD,
1
4
5
WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THIS AREA OF THE PARK HERE, ON
PROSECUTION 2? , j
i
6 AND, FOR THE RECORD, I'M INDICATING WHAT'S BEEN
7 PREVIOUSLY DRAWN, A RED CIRCLE. l -'
8 THE COURT: YES.

9 THE WITNESS: IT SEEMED LIKE A FIGHT OR 1
10 SOMETHING.
13 A. WELL, THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE RIGHT THEN
1
14
15
SEEMED LIKE THEY WERE FIGHTING.
Q. HOW MANY?
l
16 A. IT WAS A LOT.
l
17 Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ESTIMATE?
18 A. PROBABLY LIKE AROUND 20. l
19 Q. AND THIS FIGHTING, WAS IT GOING ON AT THE SAME
20 TIME THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ARGUING WITH MS. BANUELOS? l
21 A. YEAH.
11
22 Q. HOW LONG A TIME PASSED BETWEEN WHEN YOU ARRIVED
23
24
AND THEIR -- LET ME WITHDRAW.
HOW LONG DID THE ARGUMENT LAST?
l
25 A. PROBABLY AROUND 20 MINUTES. l
26 Q. AND THIS HAPPENED, WHAT, TWO AND A HALF YEARS
27 AGO? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 2240
r 1 Q. SO THAT'S YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION?
r 2 A. YES.
3 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN LONGER THAN 20 MINUTES?
r 4 A. IT COULD HAVE.
r 5
6
Q. WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU
WITNESSED BETWEEN MR. DOMINGUEZ AND MS. BANUELOS? WHAT
r 7
8
HAPPENED THAT GOT YOUR ATTENTION?
GUNSHOTS?
DID YOU HEAR
r 9 A. OH, YEAH, I HEARD GUNSHOTS.
r 10
11
THE COURT:
EVENING RECESS.
LET'S DO THIS: LET'S TAKE THE
THIS IS A CONVENIENT TIME TO BREAK.
r 12
13
WE'LL REMEMBER THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE POINT WHERE
THERE WERE GUNSHOTS FIRED.
r 14
15
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU, AS EVER, FOR
YOUR CONTINUED SERVICE IN THIS CASE. I WISH YOU AN
r 16
17
ENJOYABLE WEEKEND OFF FROM JURY DUTY. LET US PLAN ON
RECONVENING OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM AT 9:00 ON MONDAY
r 18
19
MORNING.
PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE
r 20 CHAIRS. PLEASE DO REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT TO
r 21
22
r 23
24
SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR DECISION, WHICH I CONTEMPLATE WILL
r 25
26
BE NEXT WEEK.
THANK YOU AGAIN SO MUCH. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN
r 27 ON MONDAY, 9:00.
c 28 Ill
r
,
2241
, j
I
I
,
3 THE COURT: MR. MARTINEZ, THANK YOU. YOU MAY
4 STEP DOWN FROM THE WITNESS STAND. YOU'RE ORDERED TO 1
5 RETURN TO THIS COURTROOM AT 9:00 ON MONDAY MORNING. DO

6 YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?
1
7
8
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES, YOUR HONOR.
THAT DATE IS APRIL 18, 2011. DO
l
9 YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? 1
~
11 THE COURT: THANKS FOR BEING HERE. WE'LL SEE j
12 YOU HERE THEN.

13 COUNSEL, AS BEST YOU CAN, PUSH WHATEVER YOU l
14
15
HAVE TO THE FRONT OF COUNSEL TABLE.
EXHIBITS HERE ON TO THE EXHIBIT TABLE.
LET'S GET THE
l
16 WE DO HAVE A CONTESTED MATTER TOMORROW MORNING.
l
17
18
YOU DON'T NEED TO UPSET EVERYTHING. JUST IF YOU LEAVE
COMPUTERS, HAVE THEM CLOSED, HAVE THEM PUSHED TO THE
, J
19 FRONT, SAME WITH NOTEBOOKS, SO COUNSEL ON THIS RATHER
20 CONTENTIOUS MATTER TOMORROW WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE SPACE l
21 TO WORK, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. AND THANK YOU ALL.
l
22
23
24
MR. TROCHA: THERE IS ONE THING, YOUR HONOR.
I TALKED TO DETECTIVE GASCA TODAY.
TALK, SHE IS GOING OUT OF TOWN ON TUESDAY, SO I WAS
WHEN WE DID ,
25 GOING TO ASK TO TAKE HER OUT OF ORDER. WE'RE GOING TO l
26 USE HER AT REBUTTAL, GIVEN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO
27 CLAIM NOT TO BE GANG MEMBERS, AS WELL AS TO LAY THE l
28 FACTUAL FOUNDATION OF THAT 2004 245 WE'VE BEEN TALKING
l
l
[
2242
r 1 ABOUT.
r 2 THE COURT: OKAY. MONDAY WE HAVE -- NUMBER
r 3
4
ONE, YOUR DNA EXPERT HAS TO BE ON AND OFF MONDAY, YES?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. WE'LL GET TO HIM.
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA: SHE CAN COME IN ANY TIME.
JUST NEEDS ENOUGH TIME TO BE FINISHED, BECAUSE SHE WON'T
SHE
L 7
8
BE COMING BACK.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I UNDERSTAND THE -- WAS SHE
r 9 INVOLVED WITH THE 245?

10 MR. TROCHA: NO. BUT WHEN WE DID THE PRETRIAL
r 11 MOTIONS, THE COURT ALLOWED US TO HAVE HER REVIEW THAT IN
12 TERMS OF HER PREPARATION OF THE GDR AND SHE CAN THEN
r 13 TALK ABOUT THE FACTS IN COURT UNDERLYING THE PRIORS.
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD OBJECT TO THAT.
IT'S AN OFFICER WHO WORKED THE CASE, INTERVIEWED
IF
r 16
17
WITNESSES, FINE.
THE COURT: WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT CASE? WAS
r 18 THERE A PLEA? WAS THERE A TRIAL?
r 19
20 PRE-PRELIM.
MR. TROCHA: THERE WAS. IT WAS A PLEA. IT WAS
r 21
22 PREPARED?
THE COURT: WAS THERE A PRESENTENCE REPORT
r 23
24
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
THERE WAS.
MR. TROCHA, I'M NOT SEEING HOW SHE
r 25 COULD TESTIFY WITHOUT IT BEING HEARSAY. IS THERE

26 SOMETHING I'M MISSING?
r 27 MR. TROCHA: I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT IN
r 28 TERMS OF HER EXPERTISE IN PREPARING THE GDR, SHE CAN
r
2243
l
l
1
2
TALK ABOUT FACTUAL SCENARIOS UNDERLYING CERTAIN THINGS
THAT CAME IN.
, J
3 THE COURT: SHE CAN TALK ABOUT FACTUAL

4 SCENARIOS INSOFAR AS THEY SUPPORT OPINIONS THAT SHE 1
5 GIVES, BUT THOSE FACTS AREN'T ADMISSIBLE FOR THE TRUTH
6 OF THE MATTER.
l
7
8
MR. TROCHA: WE CAN ALSO USE THE CHANGE OF PLEA
AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
l
9 THE COURT: I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WAY.
l
10 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: AND THEN THE -- THIS IS JUST
11 PRACTICAL, HAVING HER COME BACK TO ESTABLISH THE PEOPLE
12 ARE ACTUALLY MEMBER OF GANGS? I MEAN, THE WITNESSES ARE
13 MEMBERS OF GANGS AND THEY'RE DENYING IT. IT'S OBVIOUS. l
14
15
IS THAT REALLY NECESSARY, AS A PRACTICAL MATTER?
THE COURT: WELL, DO YOU WANT TO ENTER INTO A
l
16
17
STIPULATION THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE DOCUMENTED GANG
MEMBERS?
l
18 MR. TROCHA: IF COUNSEL WILL STIP THAT EACH AND l
19 EVERY ONE OF THEM IS DOCUMENTED AND AN ACTIVE GANG
20 MEMBER, WE'RE FINE WITH THAT. 1
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M SAYING AS A PRACTICAL
22 MATTER, I'M APPEALING TO THE PROSECUTOR'S SENSE OF
l
23
24
WANTING TO GET THIS TRIAL DONE. THAT REALLY IS NOT
GOING TO HELP HIS CASE TO HAVE A GANG EXPERT COME IN TO
l
25 TELL THE JURY THAT RAUL AGUILAR IS A MEMBER OF A GANG. l
26 I THINK THEY CAN FIGURE THAT OUT FOR THEMSELVES.
27 MR. TROCHA: THERE IS ALSO CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, l
28 ISMAEL ACEVES, RAUL AGUILAR, EVELYN SOTO AND --
l
l
r 2244
r 1 THE COURT: I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE REBUTTAL

-r 2 EVIDENCE.
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
TESTIFY, COUNSEL.
ISMAEL ACEVES DID NOT
r 5
6
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
HIS NAME IS MENTIONED THOUGH.
WHAT WAS THE RELEVANCE OF THE
r 7
8
GENTLEMAN WHO CAME IN AND TESTIFIED THAT HE WAS IN
PRISON WHEN THIS HAPPENED?
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA:
ALSO ON THAT LIST.
I DON'T KNOW. AND HE WOULD BE
r
I 11 THE COURT: WHAT WAS THE RELEVANCE OF HIS
t?l 12 TESTIMONY GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE WITNESS HERE DIDN'T
f 13 PUT HIM THERE AT THE PARK?
r 14
15 THE PARK.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE WITNESS DID PUT HIM AT
r
L
16
17
THE COURT: NOT IN THIS TRIAL, HE DIDN'T.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S TRUE.
r 18 THE COURT: SO WHY WAS THERE RELEVANCE? I WAS
r 19
20
WAITING FOR AN OBJECTION.
TESTIMONY.
I WOULD HAVE STRICKEN HIS
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
WELL, I THINK --
OKAY, SO SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT PUT AT
r 23
24
THE PARK SAYS, "I WASN'T AT THE PARK."
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, HERE'S THE RELEVANCE
r 25
26
THEN. HE SAYS YOGI OR CROOKS, RIGHT?
EITHER YOGI OR CROOKS.
HE SAYS IT WAS
SO IF WE ELIMINATE CROOKS, IT
r 27 WAS YOGI.
r 28 THE COURT: PERHAPS.
r
,
2245
,
1
2
MR. TROCHA:
ORDERED BACK FOR MONDAY.
IN THAT REGARD, MR. TOMAS LOPEZ IS
THE REASON WE'RE BRINGING HIM
, J
.r
3 IN IS SO THE JURY CAN SEE HIM. WE'RE NOT ASKING HIM ANY ~
4 QUESTIONS. HE WILL BE IDENTIFIED BY -- 1

5 THE COURT: WHO IS HE?
6 MR. TROCHA: TOMAS LOPEZ, YOGI.
1
l
,
7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OR BUTCH.
8 THE COURT: I'M ALSO GOING TO ASK THE SHERIFF'S
9 PERSONNEL, IF THEY WILL, TO SEE IF THERE ARE ANY VIDEO
10 SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS IN THE HALLWAY THAT MIGHT HAVE
11 CAPTURED THE TAGGING INCIDENT ON THE COURT BENCH l
12 OUTSIDE, AND IF THEY ARE, MAKE SURE THOSE TAPES GET ~
13 PRESERVED AND DON'T GET ERASED TONIGHT. J

14
15
THAT'S ACTUALLY AN ASIDE FROM THIS CASE, BUT I
WANTED TO SAY IT BEFORE WE BROKE TODAY, BECAUSE I WOULD
l
16
17
FEEL FOOLISH IF I LEARNED THAT SHERIFF'S SURVEILLANCE
COVERED IT BUT IT GOT RECYCLED TONIGHT. I DON'T KNOW
1
18 THAT'S THE CASE, BUT I'M JUST COVERING THAT. 1
19 LET'S PLAN, SINCE MR. MARTINEZ IS ON THE STAND,
20 WE'LL FINISH MR. MARTINEZ ON MONDAY MORNING. IF YOU l
21 WANT YOUR DNA EXPERT UP NEXT, WE CAN DO THAT, AND IF
22 DETECTIVE GASCA HAS TO LEAVE ON MONDAY, WE'LL PUT HER ON
l
,
1
23 AFTER THE DNA EXPERT.
24 MR. TROCHA: SHE CAN EVEN COME IN AT 3:00.
25 THE COURT: LET'S ADDRESS IT MONDAY. LET'S 1
26 CERTAINLY GET THE DNA EXPERT ON AND OFF. HE'LL BE HERE

27 MONDAY MORNING? 1
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE'LL BE HERE FIRST THING
1
1
r 2246
r
l
1 MONDAY MORNING.
r 2 THE COURT: IF YOU WANT TO INTERRUPT

MR. MARTINEZ' TESTIMONY TO PUT HIM ON, THAT IS FINE TOO.
r
3
4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK WITH DR. MILLER, I'M
r 5
6
AN HOUR TO HOUR AND A HALF.
MR. TROCHA: I'M ABOUT AN HOUR AT THE MOST WITH
r 7
8
HIM.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: IT'S NOT IN DEPTH LIKE THE
r 9 FIRST ONE WAS.
r 10 THE COURT: YOU CALL IT. I'LL BE FLEXIBLE.

11 ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU ALL. SEE YOU MONDAY.
r 12
13 HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND, YOUR
r 14
15
MONDAY, APRIL 18, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
r 16
17
Ill
Ill
r 18 Ill
r 19
20
Ill
Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
( 25 Ill
r 26
27
Ill
Ill
r 28 Ill
r
r
. ss

r 2246, INCLUSIVE, CONTAIN A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT

r THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 2011.
r
r
r
r
r
r
[
(
r
r
r
r
r
DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
)
)
)
BON. CHARLES G. ROGERS,
JUDGE
r PLAINTIFF AND
RESPONDENT ,
)
)
)
COURT OF APPEAL
NO. D060019
r vs.
)
)
)
)
SUPERIOR COURT
NO. SCD23059.6
r DEFENDANT AND
APPELLANT.
)
)
) TRIAL
r
l
r VOLUME 17
r APRIL 18, 2011

r APPEARANCES :
r FOR THE PLAINTIFF

AND RESPONDENT:
KAMALA D. HARRIS
ATTORNEY GENERAL
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
r
AND APPELLANT:
r
r
r
r

OF CALIFORNIA,
)
r
)
) D.A. NO. ACV800
PLAINTIFF, )
)
r vs.
)
)
)
)
r ______________________________
DEFENDANT. ) )
APRIL 18, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES:
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY


RETAINED COUNSEL
r
r
r
r
WITNESSES
PAGE

2261
2286
ROGER VINCENT MILLER, PH.D.

2290

2293
2347
MARTHA GASCA
2409
r FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

2411
2419
r EVELYN ESTEPHANIA QUINTERO
r SHAWN MONTPETIT

FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ
2435

2437
2474
r
r
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
DEFENSE MMM
DESCRIPTION
PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY
PAGE
2263
r DEFENSE NNN PHOTOGRAPH OF ALLEY 2286
r DEFENSE 000
DEFENSE KKK
PHOTOGRAPH OF STUMP
HARD COPY OF POWERPOINT
PRESENTATION
2286
2293
r DEFENSE BB THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT RE

ACCREDITATION
2296
r DEFENSE LLL
DEFENSE JJJ
STATISTICAL COMPARISON TABLE
QUALITY ASSURANCE STANDARDS
2334
2340
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r:
r
r 2247
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, APRIL 18, 2011; 9:09AM
r 2
r 3
5 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD MORNING.
r 6 THIS IS PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGAINST
r 7
8
PRESENT.
NO JURORS ARE PRESENT.
r 9 I WAS TOLD THAT COUNSEL WANTED TO PLACE

SOMETHING ON THE RECORD.
10
r 11
12
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, YOUR HONOR. WE TALKED
ABOUT THIS ON THURSDAY, BUT IT WAS OFF THE RECORD, SO I
r 13 WANTED TO PUT IT ON THE RECORD. IT WAS THE OBJECTION TO
r 14
15
THE PHOTOS OF MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH FAMILY, THINGS OF THAT
NATURE.
r 16
17
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD LIKE TO ADMIT THOSE
r 18
19
DURING THE DEFENDANT'S TESTIMONY. DETECTIVE GASCA
INDICATED THAT THINGS LIKE WHETHER HE HAS A FAMILY,
r 20 WHETHER HE HAS WHERE HE LIVES, WHERE HE SPENDS HIS
r 21
22
TIME IS PART OF A CALCULATION AS TO WHETHER HE IS
CURRENTLY ACTIVE IN A GANG.
r 23
24
I THINK IT'S HIGHLY PROBATIVE ON HIS LEVEL OF
ACTIVITY IN THE GANG. I UNDERSTAND THE COURT'S
r 25
26
OBJECTION THAT IT'S -- YOU KNOW, THEY SEE HIS FAMILY
SEEING PICTURES OF HIM AND HIS CHILDREN ISN'T REALLY
r 27
28
RELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF WHETHER HE DID IT, BUT IT IS
RELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF ACTIVITY IN THE GANG.
r
r
1 J
2248
l
1 I WOULD SUBMIT TO THE COURT THAT THE PICTURES
2 OF THE TATTOOS ARE IN THE SAME CLASS AS THESE PHOTOS IN l
3 THAT THEY ARE RELEVANT TO HIS LEVEL OF ACTIVITY IN THE
1J
4 GANG, BUT NOT RELEVANT AT ALL TO WHETHER HE ACTUALLY WAS
5 THE SHOOTER. SO ON THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ADMIT THOSE
6 PHOTOS.
l
7 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. 1
8
9
PEOPLE WISH TO BE HEARD?
MR. TROCHA: BRIEFLY.
, J
)
10 THE TATTOOS COME IN TO SHOW THE GANG
~
11
12
13
ALLEGATION. NOBODY IS DISPUTING MR. DOMINGUEZ HAS A
WIFE AND KIDS THAT HE LOVES VERY, VERY MUCH.
REASONS THE DEFENSE WANTS THESE PHOTOS IN IS FOR
THE ONLY , J
14
15
SYMPATHY. I DON'T THINK THAT'S RELEVANT.
THE COURT: THE RECORD CONTAINS TESTIMONY WHICH
l
16 IS UNCONTROVERTED THAT HE HAS A FAMILY; THAT HE WAS
l
17 EMPLOYED AT THAT TIME; THAT HIS FAMILY WENT TO COMPANY
18 FUNCTIONS WITH THE EMPLOYER. SO THAT EVIDENCE HAS BEEN 1 J
19 ADMITTED.
20 THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS OF l
21 HIM SURROUNDED BY HIS CHILDREN AND GOING TO CHUCK E.
22 CHEESE AND DOING EVERYTHING ELSE THEY WERE DOING SHOULD
l
23
24
COME IN.
THE COURT FINDS THAT THE PROBATIVE VALUE OF THE
l
25 PHOTOS ABOVE AND BEYOND THE TESTIMONY IS MINIMAL. I l
26 DON'T SEE THE RELEVANCE OTHER THAN TO CREATE SYMPATHY
27 GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE TESTIMONY HAS BEEN ADMITTED. l
28 IT COMES DOWN, I THINK, TO A QUESTION UNDER
l
l
r 2249
r 1 SECTION 352 AND WHETHER THE PROBATIVE VALUE OR THE
r 2
3
DANGER OF PREJUDICE ARE SUCH THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE
ADMITTED.
r 4 I VIEW THEM ESSENTIALLY ON THE SAME PLANE AS IF
5 MR. TROCHA HAD WANTED TO INTRODUCE GRATUITOUS PICTURES
r 6 OF THE AUTOPSY, WITH THE BODY OPENED UP OF MR. LOPEZ SO
r 7
8
THAT HE COULD PROVE FOR SURE THAT THIS WAS THE EXIT
WOUND THAT CORRESPONDED TO THIS ENTRANCE WOUND, OR PROVE
r 9
10
FOR SURE THAT THAT BULLET HAD LODGED NEXT TO THE RIB
AFTER GOING THROUGH ONE LUNG, THE HEART AND THE OTHER
r 11 LUNG.
12 I SUPPOSE THOSE ARE ALL RELEVANT FACTORS TO
r 13 CONSIDER THE PATHOLOGIST'S CREDIBILITY AND TESTIMONY AND
r 14
15
THOROUGHNESS AND IF HE'S REALLY RIGHT ABOUT THE CAUSE OF
DEATH, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO LET THAT IN BECAUSE IT ADDS
r 16
17
NOTHING OTHER THAN PREJUDICE AND, IN THAT CASE, APPEAL
TO THE PASSION AND SYMPATHY ON BEHALF OF THE VICTIM
r 18 PASSIONS OF THE JURORS REGARDING SYMPATHY ON BEHALF OF
r 19
20
THE VICTIM.
WELL, THE CONVERSE IS TRUE HERE WITH THESE
r 21
22
FAMILY PHOTOGRAPHS. THE OBJECTION IS NOTED.
OBJECTION IS OVERRULED FOR THE REASONS PREVIOUSLY
THE
r 23
24
STATED.
IS YOUR WITNESS HERE -- MR. MARTINEZ.
r 25
26
THE BAILIFF:
THE WITNESS IS HERE.
YOUR HONOR, I WAS ADVISED THAT
WOULD YOU LIKE TO CHECK, COUNSEL?
r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S FINE. I TRUST YOUR
r 28 REPRESENTATION.
r
2250
l
1 THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR PREFERENCE, TO INCLUDE
l
l
2
3
4
CONCLUDE THE TESTIMONY OF MR. MARTINEZ AND THEN PUT
DR. MILLER ON?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THAT'S FINE.
, J
5 THE COURT: THANK YOU. LET'S BRING THE JURORS ~

i
J
6 IN AND WE'LL GET UNDERWAY.
7
8 ISSUE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
MY APOLOGIES.
ACTUALLY, I DO HAVE ONE MORE
l
9
10
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOU INVITED COUNSEL TO ARGUE
1
11 MORE ON THE F.I. CARDS OF ANDRES LOPEZ -- I DON'T KNOW l
12 IF YOU REMEMBER THAT.
13 THE COURT: YES, I DO. l
14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: FROM MY UNDERSTANDING,
DETECTIVE GASCA IS GOING TO BE CALLED IN AS REBUTTAL TO
l
16 TESTIFY THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE WERE MEMBERS OF SHELLTOWN.
l
17 FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, SHE'S GOING TO USE F.I. CARDS TO
18 FORM THE BASIS OF THAT OPINION, SO IT WOULD BE DEFENSE'S l
19 REQUEST THAT I ASK HER ABOUT HER OPINION AS TO WHAT GANG
l
20
21
22
ANDRES LOPEZ WAS AROUND THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING, BASED
ON THE F.I. CARDS.
THE COURT: MR. TROCHA?
, J
23
24
MR. TROCHA: BASED ON FOUR F.I. CARDS, IT
WOULDN'T BE COMPLETE GDR SINCE SHE HASN'T DONE THE
l
25 RESEARCH AS TO ALL HIS F.I.'S OR OTHER POLICE REPORTS, l
26 INCLUDING HIS JUVENILE CONTACTS. THE DOCUMENTATION
27 CAN'T BE BASED ON FOUR SELECTED F.I. CARDS THE DEFENSE l
28 HAS PULLED, THREE OF WHICH MR. ANDRES LOPEZ SAID WERE
l
, J
r 2251
r 1 HIS BROTHER, SO --
r 2 THE COURT: DID DETECTIVE GASCA EVER DO A GANG
r 3
4
DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON MR. ANDRES LOPEZ?
MR. TROCHA: NO. IT WAS NEVER REQUESTED.
r 5
6
THE COURT: SO YOUR THEORY, MR. SPEREDELOZZI,
IS, AGAIN, AS BASIS FOR AN OPINION.
r 7
8 EXACTLY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, BASIS FOR OPINION,
THE F.I. CARDS SHOW -- I'VE LOOKED AT ALL OF
r 9 THEM-- THE F.I. CARDS SHOW THAT UP UNTIL ABOUT OCTOBER

10 OF 2008 HE HAD BEEN CLAIMING SHERMAN, A DIFFERENT GANG,
r 11 OR LOGAN HEIGHTS RED STEPS AS WELL, AND THAT THERE IS NO
12 F.I. CARDS AS TO CLAIMING SHELLTOWN UNTIL MONTHS AFTER
r 13 THE SHOOTING.
r 14
15
I THINK IT'S HIGHLY RELEVANT.
THERE IS THAT ANDRES WASN'T EVEN THERE.
THE DEFENSE
HE SAID HE
r 16
17
DRANK ABOUT FOUR 40'S AT THE PARK.
THE COURT: IT'S STILL HEARSAY, ISN'T IT? IN
r 18 OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE NOT CALLING TO ELICIT THE OPINION
r 19
20
THAT HE'S A CERTAIN GANG MEMBER, YOU ARE, AND THEN
TRYING TO REFUTE THAT OPINION FOR THE REAL PURPOSE OF
21 GETTING IN THAT HEARSAY TESTIMONY.
r 22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: WELL, I DON'T SEE THE
r 23
24
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND CALLING HER TO TESTIFY THAT,
FOR EXAMPLE, RAUL AGUILAR IS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN.
r 25 SHE'S RELYING ON HEARSAY TO FORM THAT OPINION,

26 SO SHE CAN RELY ON HEARSAY TO FORM -- TO TELL HER
r 27 OPINION ABOUT WHAT GANG ANDRES LOPEZ IS IN FROM THE
28 PERIOD OF, SAY, APRIL TO OCTOBER 2008.
r
r
l
1 THE COURT: REFRESH MY MEMORY. HAS SHE
2252
, j
2 PREVIOUSLY RENDERED AN OPINION AS TO ANDRES LOPEZ' GANG l

3 MEMBERSHIP?
4 MR. TROCHA: NO. AND IN TERMS OF THAT, AGAIN, l
5 WE DON'T KNOW IF THOSE ARE THE ONLY FOUR F.I. 'S THERE
6 ARE. THE OPPOSITE IS IF WE WERE TO PICK FOUR OF
l
7
8
MR. DOMINGUEZ'S CONTACTS AND GO, "THIS PROVES HE'S A
GANG MEMBER," WE WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF COURT. IT
l
9
10
11
WOULDN'T EVEN MAKE IT PAST THE FOUNDATIONAL REQUIREMENT
FOR AN EXPERT TO TESTIFY TO THAT OPINION UNTIL THE
DEFENSE CAN PROVE THAT FOUNDATION OF THESE ARE THE ONLY
,
l
j
12 FOUR OUT THERE, HE HAS NO OTHER CONTACTS, HE HAS NO

13 OTHER POLICE REPORTS. WE ALREADY KNOW HE'S GOT A PRIOR l
14
15
CRIME FOR TAGGING "SHELLTOWN" IN SHELLTOWN.
THE COURT: WHEN WAS THAT?
l
16 MR. TROCHA: THAT WAS IN 2009 WHEN HE WENT INTO
l
17 JUVENILE HALL AND CAMP BARRETT EVENTUALLY AFTER THAT.
18 SO MY OBJECTION WOULD BE FOR FOUNDATION. IF THEY MAY BE l
19 USED TO PROVIDE INFORMATION FOR A GDR, WE DON'T HAVE ALL
20 THE INFORMATION YET, THE DEFENSE CAN'T PROVE THAT YET. l
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I THINK THAT GOES TO WEIGHT,
22 NOT ADMISSIBILITY. MR. TROCHA CAN REDIRECT HER, IF YOU
l
23 WILL, AND SAY, "THESE ARE NOT THE FULL F.I. CARDS. YOU ~j
J
24 HAVEN'T REVIEWED EVERYTHING, HAVE YOU," AND SHE CAN SAY,
25 "THAT'S CORRECT, I HAVEN'T." l
26 THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THE DEFENSE DOESN'T
27 HAVE ACCESS TO THE CAL GANG DATABASE. ALL WE HAVE ARE l
28 THE F.I. CARDS THAT WERE PROVIDED BY THE PROSECUTION.
l
,
r 2253
r 1 AND, ADMITTEDLY, THOSE DO SHOW ANDRES LOPEZ HANGING OUT
r 2
3
WITH SHELLTOWN MEMBERS, BUT NOT UNTIL 2009.
ALL OF THEM FROM 2008, INCLUDING ONES AFTER THE
r 4 MURDER, SHOW 2008 -- EXCUSE ME -- SHOW THAT HE WAS
r 5
6
CLAIMING SOME OTHER GANG. AND THIS IS CORROBORATED BY
OUR WITNESS, ANTRIEL MATTHEWS, THE YOUNG MAN WHO WAS IN
r 7
8
CUSTODY WHO WAS SAYING, "YEAH, HE KNEW THIS GUY ABOUT
TWO YEARS AGO AND HE WAS TRYING TO HANG OUT WITH OUR
r 9
10
GANG."
SO THE F.I. CARDS THAT THEY ARE, IN FACT,
r 11 ANDRES, NOT HIS BROTHER, IS CORROBORATED BY A WITNESS.
r 12
13
MR. TROCHA: EXCEPT BUT ANTRIEL SAID LITTLE
DEAD MAN IS OMAR, NOT ANDRES. THAT'S WHAT THE F.I.
r 14
15
CARDS SAY.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HE ALSO SAID ANDRES WAS
r 16
17
CALLED BABY DEAD MAN. IT'S SEMANTICS BETWEEN LITTLE
DEAD MAN, BABY DEAD MAN ON THE CARDS.
r 18 THE COURT: I'M GOING TO HOLD TO MY ORIGINAL
r 19
20
RULING. OBJECTION SUSTAINED.
r 21
22
MAY WE HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE, AND THEN WE'LL
r 23
24
BRING THE WITNESS IN.

THE COURT: FOLKS, MY APOLOGIES FOR THAT. I
r
26
27 HAD NOT ANTICIPATED THAT OUR MATTER FRIDAY WOULD HAVE
r 28 QUITE THE MEDIA ATTENTION THAT IT HAD. WE HAD THE JURY
r
2254
l
l
1 BOX FILLED WITH MEMBERS OF THE PRINT, TELEVISION AND
2 MEDIA AND EVERY OTHER SEAT TAKEN, SO I ASKED COURT STAFF l
3 TO COLLECT ALL YOUR NOTEBOOKS AND PENS.
4 SO PLEASE DO TAKE A MOMENT AND BE SURE YOU HAVE l
5 THE RIGHT NOTEBOOK. AND IF YOU HAD A PERSONAL PEN THAT
6 WAS ONE OF THOSE THAT YOU REALLY LIKED, DON'T FEEL SHY
l
7
8
ABOUT ASKING YOUR NEIGHBORS IF ANYBODY HAS THAT
PARTICULAR PEN.
l
9 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD MORNING. I SHOULD l
10 HAVE BEGUN WITH THAT. IT'S NICE TO SEE EACH ONE OF YOU.
11 THE CLERK TELLS ME ALL OF YOU WERE HERE WHEN SHE FIRST l
12 CHECKED AT TWO MINUTES AFTER 9:00. I APOLOGIZE FOR THE
13 LATE START. WE DID HANDLE A COUPLE OF LEGAL ISSUES. l
14
15
WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE WITH THE TESTIMONY OF
MR. MARTINEZ, AND I WILL INVITE HIM TO RESUME THE STAND.
l
16
17
AS ALWAYS, I THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED
ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER. MAY WE HAVE MR. MARTINEZ,
l
18 PLEASE. l
20 THE COURT: YOU'RE STILL UNDER THE SAME OATH l
21 YOU TOOK LAST WEEK. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
22 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
l
23
24
l
26 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ,
27 DEFENSE WITNESS, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY FIRST DULY
1 ]
28 SWORN, TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

l
l
r 2255
r 1 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION
r
3 Q. GOOD MORNING, MR. MARTINEZ.
4 A. GOOD MORNING.
r 5
6
Q. WHEN WE LEFT OFF ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON, WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT THE NIGHT MOISES LOPEZ PASSED AWAY,
r 7
8
REMEMBER?
A. YES.
r 9 Q. THAT NIGHT YOU HAD TOLD US YOU SHOWED UP WITH
r 10
11
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ AND SIRIA FORD.
A. YES, I DID.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SIRIA FORD IS YOUR GIRLFRIEND.
YES.
r 14
15
Q.
ALLEY?
DO YOU REMEMBER YOU SAID YOU PARKED IN THE
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
I'M GOING TO PUT UP PROSECUTION 2 SO WE CAN
r 18 REFER TO IT, MR. MARTINEZ.
r 19
20
AFTER YOU PARKED IN THE ALLEY, DO YOU REMEMBER
FLORENCIO WALKING DOWN THE ALLEY
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES.
-- AND MEETING UP WITH A GIRL?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
WHO WAS THAT GIRL?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
HIS GIRLFRIEND.
DO YOU REMEMBER HER NAME?
r 27 A. DIANA.
r 28 Q. AND AT SOME POINT WHEN YOU WERE HANGING OUT AT
r
2256
l
l
1 THE PARK, WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK?
2 WHERE THE RED CIRCLE IS MARKED ON PROSECUTION 2, WHAT l
3 COULD YOU SEE THERE?
4 A. IT SEEMED LIKE THERE WAS A CROWD OF PEOPLE l
RIGHT THERE.
5
6 Q. COULD YOU SEE WHAT THEY WERE DOING?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
SEEMED LIKE THEY WERE FIGHTING OR SOMETHING.
AT SOME POINT DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING THAT GOT
l
9 YOUR ATTENTION? l
10 A. YES. I HEARD THE GUNSHOTS.
11 Q. AND WITH REGARD TO THE GUNSHOTS, HOW LONG WAS l
12 IT FROM THE TIME YOU ARRIVED TO WHEN YOU HEARD THE
13 GUNSHOT?
1
14
15
A.
MINUTES.
I'D SAY ANYWHERE FROM A HALF HOUR TO 45
l
16 Q. COULD IT HAVE BEEN AN HOUR?
l
17 A. YEAH, I WOULD SAY.
18 Q. IS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO REMEMBER EXACTLY THE l
19 AMOUNT OF TIME?
20 A. AT THAT TIME, YES. l
21 Q. WHEN YOU HEARD THE GUNSHOTS, WHAT WERE YOU
22 DOING?
l
l
,
23 A. I WAS WALKING DOWN THE ALLEY.
24 Q. WHY WERE YOU WALKING DOWN THE ALLEY?
25 A. I WAS ABOUT TO TELL MR. DOMINGUEZ IF HE WAS J\
26 GOING TO LEAVE WITH DIANA OR COME WITH US.

27 Q. SO YOU WERE GOING TO LEAVE? l
28 A. YEAH, AFTER.
l
l
r 2257
r 1 Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU GOING TO SAY TO
r 2 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r
3 A. WHETHER HE WAS GOING TO LEAVE WITH HER OR HE
4 WAS GOING TO COME WITH US OR WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WERE YOU GUYS DRINKING AT THE PARK?
YES.
r 7
8
Q.
WENT OFF?
SO WHICH WAY WERE YOU FACING WHEN THE GUNSHOTS
r 9 A. I WAS FACING DOWN THE ALLEY.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
AND HOW FAR HAD YOU WALKED DOWN THE ALLEY?
I'D SAY PROBABLY LIKE 10 YARDS.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
SO PROBABLY LIKE 15 STEPS MAYBE?
YES.
r 14
15
Q. AT THE TIME THE GUNSHOTS WENT OFF, WHAT WAS
MR. DOMINGUEZ DOING?
r 16
17
A.
GIRLFRIEND.
I THINK HE WAS STILL ARGUING WITH HIS
r 18 Q. WHAT HAPPENS RIGHT AFTER?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
OH, RIGHT AFTER, THEY TOOK OFF RUNNING.
WHO IS "THEY"?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
MR. DOMINGUEZ AND HIS GIRLFRIEND.
AND WHICH WAY DID THEY RUN?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THEY RAN EAST ON THE STREET.
ON PROSECUTION 2, CAN YOU -- DO YOU SEE WHERE
r 25 THE ALLEY MEETS FRANKLIN?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
DID THEY RUN TO THE LEFT OR TO THE RIGHT?
r 28 A. THEY RAN TOWARD MY LEFT.
r
2258
l
1
J
1 Q. THE WAY I'M STANDING?

2 A. THE WAY I'M SITTING, YEAH. l
3 Q. SO IT WOULD BE MY LEFT AS WELL?
4 A. YES. l
5
6
Q.
A.
AND WHICH WAY DID YOU RUN?
I RAN IN THE SAME DIRECTION, BUT I JUST STAYED
1
7 ON THAT STREET, I THINK IT'S FRANKLIN OR CUYAMACA.
1
8 Q. SO CAN YOU TAKE A STEP DOWN OFF THE WITNESS
9 STAND, MR. MARTINEZ, AND SHOW US THE PATH THAT YOU SAW l
10 FLORENCIO AND DIANA RUN.
11 AND, MR. MARTINEZ, IF YOU DON'T MIND, CAN YOU l
12 TRY AND STAND OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE EXHIBIT SO THAT
13 THE JURY CAN SEE WHERE YOU'RE POINTING.
l
14
15
A.
Q.
OKAY.
OKAY. GO AHEAD.
l
16 A. WE WERE RIGHT HERE AND THEY TOOK OFF RUNNING l
17 THIS WAY.
18 Q. AND KEEP GOING. WHERE DID THEY GO? l
19 A. WELL, I RAN THIS WAY, AND THEN THEY RAN THIS
20 WAY. l
21
22
Q. OKAY. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE WITNESS
HAS INDICATED THAT DIANA AND JOSE RAN DOWN FRANKLIN EAST
l
23
24
AND THEN BEARED LEFT AT FRANKLIN, AND MR. MARTINEZ
STAYED RIGHT AT CUYAMACA.
1
25 THE COURT: SO REFLECT. l
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HAVE A SEAT, MR. MARTINEZ.
28 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO?
l
l
r 2259
r 1 A. I RAN TO MY FRIEND'S HOUSE.
r 2
3
Q.
A.
OKAY.
YES,
DID YOU LATER SPEAK WITH THE POLICE?
I DID.
r 4 Q. HOW DID THAT GO DOWN?
5 A. WELL, THEY TOOK US ALL OUT OF HIS HOUSE AND

r 6 THEN THEY QUESTIONED US.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHAT DID THEY QUESTION YOU ABOUT?
ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
DID THEY TELL YOU WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
WELL, YEAH, THEY TOLD ME.
r 11 Q. DID THEY TELL YOU WHO WAS SHOT?
r 12
13
A. NO. I JUST REMEMBER THEY TOLD ME ONE OF MY
FRIENDS HAD GOT SHOT.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
DID YOU KNOW WHO?
NO, I DIDN'T KNOW WHO.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
MR. MARTINEZ, WE MET THIS WEEKEND,
YES.
DIDN'T WE?
r 18 Q. WE MET AT OCEAN VIEW PARK TO LOOK AT THE CRIME
19 SCENE, DIDN'T WE?

r 20 A. YES, WE DID.
r 21
22
Q. DURING THAT MEETING, WITH REGARD TO THE
LIGHTING, HOW DID IT LOOK THERE AT NIGHT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THE DAY WE MET UP? THAT NIGHT?
THE DAY WE MET UP, A COUPLE DAYS AGO, SATURDAY.
[ 25 A. IT WAS PRETTY BRIGHT.
26 Q. WHY?
r 27 A. WELL, THERE'S LIGHTS RIGHT THERE.
28 Q. THERE'S A BIG FLOODLIGHT BY THE TREES?

r
r
, 1
2260
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WITH REGARD TO THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, HOW l
3 DID IT DIFFER, THE LIGHTING?
4 A. WELL, THAT NIGHT IT WAS DARKER THAN IT WAS THAT l
5 NIGHT WE WERE RIGHT THERE.
l
7 A. WELL, IT WAS DARK BECAUSE -- THAT NIGHT WE WERE
8 THERE, IT WAS BRIGHTER BECAUSE I GUESS THERE'S A COUPLE
9 LIGHTS ON OR SOMETHING. l
10 Q. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT -- WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
11 TWO DIFFERENT NIGHTS NOW, SO LET'S BE VERY SPECIFIC AS l
12 TO WHICH ONE.
13 A. WELL, THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, IT WAS DARKER
l
14
15
THAN THE NIGHT WHEN WE MET UP AT THE PARK.
Q. IS THAT BECAUSE YOU FEEL THE LIGHT ABOVE THE
l
16 TREES WAS DIFFERENT OR WHY IS THAT?
l
17 A. I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS LIGHT. I'M NOT SURE IF
18 THOSE LIGHTS WERE TURNED ON THAT NIGHT. l
19 Q. IF THEY WERE TURNED ON, DO YOU REMEMBER THE
20 LIGHTING LET ME BACK UP. LET ME WITHDRAW THAT. l
WITH REGARD TO WHEN WE MET A COUPLE NIGHTS AGO
21
22 AND THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HOW MUCH
l
23
24
DARKER IT WAS IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT?
A. WELL, I WOULD SAY IT WAS PROBABLY LIKE -- IT
1
25 WAS DARKER THAN IT WAS THAT NIGHT WE MET UP AT THE PARK. l
26 Q. DO YOU GO TO THE PARK A LOT?
27 A. I USED TO GO. l
28 Q. LATELY?
l
l
r 2261
r 1 A. NOT REALLY.
r 2 Q. SINCE MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS ARRESTED -- YOU WERE

ARRESTED WITH HIM, RIGHT?
r
3
4 A. YES, I WAS.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WERE YOU TAKEN INTO CUSTODY AS WELL?
WELL, YES, I DID. I GOT ARRESTED AND THEY TOOK
r 7
8
ME DOWN TO THE POLICE STATION.
Q. AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
AND THEN THEY JUST TALKED TO ME, I GUESS.
AND THEN THEY LET YOU GO?
r 11 A. YES.
r 12
13 DAY?
Q. HAVE YOU TALKED TO MR. DOMINGUEZ SINCE THAT
r 14
15
A. NO.
r 16
17
r 18 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
r 19
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 21
22
Q. MR. MARTINEZ, I'M SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S
EXHIBIT 4 ON THE TELEVISION BEHIND YOU.
r 23
24 A.
DO YOU SEE THAT LIGHT ABOVE THE TREES?
YES.
r 25
26 A.
Q. IS THAT LIGHT ON OR OFF?
IT'S ON.
r 27 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME -- WHAT DAY THIS PICTURE
r 28 WAS TAKEN ON?
r
l
2262
, I
I
J
1 A. THIS ONE HERE?
2 Q. YEAH. l
3 A. NO, I DON'T.
4 Q. BUT YOU'RE TELLING US THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER l

5 THAT LIGHT MIGHT HAVE BEEN OFF?
6 A. WELL, YEAH. OR I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS ON OR

1
7 OFF. I DON'T REMEMBER. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T PAY
l j
8 MUCH ATTENTION TO THAT.
9 Q. WELL, IF IT WAS PITCH-BLACK, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE l

10 BEEN ABLE TO SEE PEOPLE FIGHTING BY THE BATHROOMS; WOULD
11 THAT BE CORRECT? l
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. SO IT PROBABLY WAS ON, RIGHT?

l
14
15
A.
Q.
PROBABLY WAS.
SHOWING YOU NOW WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S

l
16 EXHIBIT 6 BEHIND YOU, DO YOU SEE THAT STREETLIGHT ON THE
l
17 OTHER SIDE OF THE PARK, MR. MARTINEZ?
18 A. YES. 1
19 Q. WAS THAT LIGHT ON?
l
,
,
21 Q. LET'S GO TO PEOPLE'S 22, MR. MARTINEZ. YOU'VE
J
22 GOT TO RECOGNIZE THIS VIEW, DON'T YOU?
23 A. YES.
J
24 Q. THIS WAS WHERE YOU WERE STANDING NEXT TO SIRIA
25 FORD'S CAR, RIGHT? l
26 A. I WAS A LITTLE MORE DOWN THIS WAY.
27 Q. MORE TO ~HE RIGHT? l
28 A. MORE TO MY RIGHT.
l
l
r 2263
r 1 Q. DO YOU SEE THOSE THREE LIGHTS IN THE
r 2 BACKGROUND?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
ARE THEY ON OR OFF IN THAT PICTURE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THEY'RE ON.
WE ACTUALLY HAVE TWO ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
r 7
8
BATHROOM, CORRECT?
A. UH-HUH, YES.
r 9
10
Q.
A.
WHERE YOU SAY PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING, CORRECT?
YES.
r 11 Q. AND WE HAVE ANOTHER STREETLIGHT JUST TO THE
r 12
13
RIGHT OF THE BATHROOM, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
KILLING?
WERE THOSE LIGHTS ON AT THE TIME OF THE
r
17 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT MMM, PHOTOGRAPH OF
18 ALLEY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SHOWING YOU NOW WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS DEFENSE
r 21
22
MMM, DO YOU SEE THAT, MR. MARTINEZ?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO THE
PARK THIS WEEKEND, RIGHT?
r 25 A. YES.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT?
WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT RIGHT HERE?
r 28 Q. YEAH.
r
2264
1
l
1 A. WELL,. I GUESS GOING DOWN TOWARDS THE ALLEY AND
2 THE HOUSES IN THE BACKGROUND. l
3 Q. ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?
4 A. YES. l
5 Q. WHERE IS THE STREET IN THIS PICTURE,
6 MR. MARTINEZ?
l
7 A. THE STREET'S RIGHT HERE.
8 Q. WHERE? CAN YOU POINT IT OUT TO US?
9 A. RIGHT HERE. l
10 Q. HOW ABOUT YOU USE THE TV BEHIND YOU.
11 A. THE STREET'S RIGHT HERE. l
12 Q. WE CAN'T SEE THE STREET, CAN WE?
13 A. IT'S RIGHT HERE.
1
14
15
Q. WE CAN SEE A DISTINCT STREET IN THAT
PHOTOGRAPH?
l
16 A. YES. l
17 Q. WHERE ARE THE CARS ON THE STREET?
18 A. I DON'T THINK THAT'S -- WELL, I THINK THERE IS 1
19 ONE CAR RIGHT HERE.
20
21
22
Q.
A.
YOU THINK, OR IS THAT THE END OF THE WALKWAY
AND THE WALL AND THE FENCE OF THAT HOUSE?
IT COULD BE THAT TOO.
, J
~
23 Q. WHERE IS THE PALM TREE IN THE FRONT YARD OF
J
24 THAT HOUSE?
25 A. RIGHT HERE. l
26 Q. WHICH ONE? THERE'S TWO, RIGHT?
27 A. YES. RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER. l
28 Q. SO WHERE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH DID YOU SEE
l
l
r 2265
r 1 MR. DOMINGUEZ AND MS. BANUELOS ARGUING?
r 2 A. WHERE? LIKE AROUND RIGHT HERE.
r
\_
3
4
Q.
A.
ARE YOU SURE?
YES, TOWARDS THE END OF THE ALLEY.
r 5
6
Q.
KILLING?
IS THIS HOW DARK IT WAS ON THE NIGHT OF THE
r 7
8
A.
Q.
JUST ABOUT.
AND YOU'RE TELLING US YOU COULD CLEARLY MAKE
r 9
10
OUT PEOPLE'S FACES?
A. WELL, I KNOW BECAUSE HE GOT OFF MY CAR AND HE
r 11 WAS GOING THAT WAY TO MEET UP WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND, SO
r 12
13
IT'S NOT LIKE I'M JUST PUTTING SOMEONE THERE, YOU KNOW.
Q. WELL, IT COULD BE, BECAUSE IT'S PITCH-BLACK IN
r 14
15
THAT PICTURE,
A.
IS IT NOT, MR. MARTINEZ?
IT'S DARK.
r 16
17
Q.
ABOUT.
THERE'S NO LIGHTS DOWN WHERE YOU'RE TALKING
r 18 A. JUST THE HOUSELIGHTS RIGHT HERE.
r 19
20
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR TESTIMONY ON THURSDAY AND
AT THE LAST HEARING WHERE YOU SAID YOU COULD RECOGNIZE
r 21
22
MS. BANUELOS BECAUSE OF HER CAR?
A. YES.
rt 23 Q. WHAT COLOR IS HER CAR?
24 A. HER CAR WAS GREEN.
r 25 Q. GREEN?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
AND HOW COULD YOU MAKE THAT OUT IN A PICTURE
r 28 WHERE EVERYTHING IS EITHER BLACK OR ORANGE?
r
2266
1
l
1 A. BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE AT THE TOP OF THE HILL,
2 WHEN WE WERE LOOKING OUT, YOU COULD SEE I THINK IT'S l
3 40TH STREET, SO YOU SEE THE CARS THAT ARE COMING OUT AND
4 PULLING DOWN THE HILL AS THEY PARK.
1
:J
Q. YOU'RE STANDING IN AN AREA WITH LIGHT, CORRECT?

5
6 A. YES.
1
7
8
Q.
A.
LOOKING INTO AN AREA THAT'S DARK.
YES.
l
9 Q. AND YOU ALSO SAID YOU COULD SEE MS. BANUELOS'S 1
10 FACE AS SHE GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND WALKED UP THE ALLEY,
11 CORRECT? l
12 A. I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT.
13 Q. YOU COULDN'T SEE THAT?
1
14
15
A.
Q.
I SAID I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING THAT.
WELL, YOU HAD TO BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE IT WAS
l
16 MS. BANUELOS, RIGHT?
l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. AS OPPOSED TO SOME OTHER WOMAN DRIVING A 1
19 SIMILAR GREEN CAR.
20 A. CORRECT. l
21 Q. HOW COULD YOU HAVE SEEN ANYBODY'S FACE IF IT
22 WAS THAT DARK, MR. MARTINEZ?
l
23
24
A. BECAUSE, I MEAN, IT'S DARK, BUT WHEN YOU'RE
THERE, YOU CAN SEE, LIKE --
l
25 Q. WELL, YOU'VE TOLD US THIS PICTURE LOOKS EXACTLY l
26 LIKE WHAT YOU SAW ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER, CORRECT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. YOU'RE TELLING US FROM THIS DISTANCE YOU COULD
l
,
r 2267
r 1 SEE A FACE DOWN ON THE STREET OF FRANKLIN?
r 2 A. YES.
r
3 Q. EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE STREET OF
4 FRANKLIN?
r 5
6
A. YOU CAN'T SEE THE STREET HERE FROM THE ANGLE
THE PICTURE IS TAKEN.
r 7
8
Q. AND WE CAN'T EVEN SEE WHAT KIND OF CARS, IF
ANY, ARE ON THE STREET.
r 9
10
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ARE YOU TELLING US THERE IS SOMEHOW MORE LIGHT
r 11 IN THE ALLEY?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO.
WHERE IS THE ALLEY ON THIS PICTURE,
r 14
15
MR. MARTINEZ?
A. IT'S RIGHT HERE.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
CAN YOU POINT IT OUT ON THE TV?
IT'S RIGHT HERE, RIGHT ALONG THAT FENCE.
r 18 Q. ARE YOU SURE? OR IS THAT THE TOP OF THE
r
19 ROOFLINE OF THE HOUSE NEXT TO THE FENCE?
20 A. THIS ONE IS THE TOP OF THE ROOFLINE RIGHT HERE.
r 21
22
Q. BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE POINTING AT ACTUALLY,
MR. MARTINEZ, IS THIS WALL ACROSS THE STREET FROM
r 23
24
FRANKLIN.
A. I POINTED RIGHT HERE.
r 25
26
Q. SO SOMEWHERE IN THAT BLACK VOID THERE'S THE
ALLEY, CORRECT?
r 27 A. CORRECT.
r 28 Q. PLEASE HAVE A SEAT.
r
l
2268
, J
1 YOU'RE TELLING US IT WAS EASIER TO SEE
2 SOMEONE'S FACE IN THAT DARKNESS? 1
3 A. I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS EASIER, BUT I COULD SEE.
4 Q. AND YOU SAID YOU WERE 10 YARDS AWAY FROM THE l
5 CAR, RIGHT?
6 A. FROM WHICH CAR?
l
7
8
Q.
A.
FROM MS. FORD'S CAR.
YES.
l
9 Q. AND MS. FORD'S CAR IS PARKED IN THE TREE LINE 1
10 UP BY THE BENCHES, CORRECT?
11 A. CORRECT. l
12 Q. 10 YARDS AWAY FROM HER CAR.
13 A. THAT'S AN ESTIMATE. 1
14
15
Q. THAT'S AN ESTIMATE. AT THE MOST, IT WOULD PUT
YOU SOMEWHERE AROUND THIS DIRT LOT, RIGHT?
l
16 A. OR A LITTLE BIT FURTHER.
l
17 Q. THAT WOULD BE FURTHER THAN 10 YARDS,
1
18
19
20
MR. MARTINEZ, WOULDN'T IT?
A.
Q.
YES, IT WOULD.
ARE YOU TELLING US YOU COULD SEE JUST FINE FROM
, j
21 THAT DISTANCE INTO THAT DEFENSE MMM?

1
J
22 A. I SURE DID.
23
24
Q.
A.
HOW LONG WERE THESE PEOPLE ARGUING AGAIN?
AROUND ANYWHERE FROM 30 MINUTES TO 45.
l
25 Q. AND WHERE WERE THEY ARGUING? l
26 A. AT THE STREET IN THE BOTTOM OF THE ALLEY, WHERE
27 THE ALLEY MEETS THE SIDEWALK. l
28 Q. THEY WERE ON THE STREET?
l
1
r 2269
r 1 A. ON THE SIDEWALK.
r 2 Q. THEY WERE NEVER IN THE CAR?
r
4 Q. YOU DON'T?
r 5
6
A. PROBABLY IN THE BEGINNING, AND THEN THEY GOT
OFF AND THEY STARTED ARGUING.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU KNOW THEY GOT INTO THE CAR?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 9 Q. DID YOU SEE THEM GET INTO THE CAR?
r
10 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
11 Q. DID YOU EVEN SEE THEM ARGUING THEN?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
SO IF YOU WERE WATCHING THEM ARGUE, HOW DID YOU
r 14
15
MISS THEM GETTING IN AND OUT OF A CAR?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I WAS DRINKING IN THE ALLEY. I
r 16
17
WASN'T WATCHING THEM 100 PERCENT. I WASN'T WATCHING
THEM, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS GOING ON EVERY SECOND.
r 18 Q. WELL, WHAT WAS DISTRACTING YOU THEN WHILE YOU
r 19
20
WERE BY YOUR CAR?
A. SIRIA.
r 21
22 CAR?
Q. WHAT ABOUT A PERSON THROWING UP BEHIND YOUR
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.
YOU MISSED THAT ALTOGETHER?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I GUESS I DID.
DID YOU MISS THE PERSON JUMPING INTO THE TRUNK
r 27 OF YOUR CAR TOO?
28 A. YES.
[
r
l
2270
, 1
1 Q. HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT IF YOU'RE RIGHT BY YOUR
2 CAR? l
3 A. BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE. IF I WAS THERE, I
4 WOULD HAVE KNOWN SOMEONE WAS IN THE TRUNK. l

5
6
Q. SO IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE CAR AND YOU'RE NOT IN
THE ALLEY, WHERE WERE YOU?

1
7
8 ALLEY.
A. WALKING TOWARDS DOWN THE ALLEY. I WAS IN THE
l
9 Q. BUT YOU ALSO SAID YOU WERE DRINKING BY YOUR 1
10 CAR.
11 A. EARLIER, YES, WHILE WE WERE WAITING. l

12 Q. AND YOU WERE ONLY WAITING FOR ABOUT 10 MINUTES
13 THOUGH, RIGHT?
1
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
WELL, YOU TOLD US ON THURSDAY YOU PULLED INTO

l
16 THE PARK AND THE --
l
17 A. OH, YEAH. WE WAITED 10 MINUTES FOR HER TO
18 ARRIVE. I'M SAYING WHILE I WAS DRINKING, SHE WAS 1

19 ALREADY THERE, THEY WERE DOING WHATEVER THEY WERE DOING
20 DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ALLEY, AND I WAS AT THE TOP OF l

21 THE ALLEY DRINKING WITH SIRIA.
22 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO THE CAR.

l
23
24
SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 50, THAT'S THE
FRONT OF YOUR CAR, IS IT NOT?

1
25 A. I SEE THIS PART, YES. l
26 Q. YOU'RE SAYING YOU CAN SEE FROM THE CAR WHERE
27 THESE PEOPLE WERE ARGUING, CORRECT? l
28 A. YEAH.
l
l
r 2271
r 1 Q. WE CAN --
r 2 A. I WASN'T INSIDE THE CAR. I WAS OUTSIDE THE
r
3 CAR, STANDING.
4 Q. BY THE DRIVER'S DOOR?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
I THINK IT WAS UP BY THE FRONT, BY THE HOOD.
OH, SO YOU WERE IN FRONT OF MS. FORD THEN,
r 7
8
CORRECT?
A. I GUESS. WELL, SHE WAS OFF TOO.
r 9
10
Q. IF SHE WAS STANDING BY THE DRIVER'S DOOR AND
YOU WERE BY THE FRONT OF THE CAR, YOU WOULD BE IN FRONT
r 11 OF HER, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
SO LOOKING DOWN THIS ALLEYWAY, WE CAN SEE WHERE
r 14
15
THE ALLEY MEETS THE STREET, CORRECT?
A. WELL, NO, BECAUSE RIGHT THERE IS A LITTLE HILL
r 16
17
TOWARDS THE END OF THE ALLEY.
Q. OH, SO WE CAN'T EVEN SEE WHERE THE ALLEY MEETS
r 18 THE STREET?
r
19 A. NOT IN THIS PICTURE, NO.
20 Q. WHERE IS MS. BANUELOS'S CAR IN THIS PICTURE,
r 21
22
MR. MARTINEZ?
A. YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE IT RIGHT THERE.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU CAN'T SEE IT AT ALL, CAN YOU?
NO.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
CAN YOU POINT OUT WHERE YOU REMEMBER IT BEING.
SEE THIS CAR? SHE DROVE DOWN THIS THING RIGHT
r 27 HERE AND SHE PROBABLY PULLED UP RIGHT AROUND HERE,
r 28 SOMEWHERE RIGHT THERE.
r
2272
l
l
1 Q. SO AS YOU'RE CLOSER TO IT, CAN YOU SEE THAT CAR
2 AT ALL? l
3 A. NO. THERE'S A CAR RIGHT HERE, THOUGH, OR
4 SOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THAT ONE. l

5
6
Q. HAVE A SEAT.
SO IF SOMEBODY WAS ARGUING INSIDE OF

1
7
8
MS. BANUELOS'S CAR, YOU COULDN'T SEE THAT FROM WHERE YOU
WERE STANDING, CORRECT?

l
l
9
10
11
A.
Q.
A.
CORRECT.
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SEE THE CAR AT ALL, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
,
12 Q. IN FACT, YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE ANY OF THE CARS
13 PARKED ON THE STREET, RIGHT?

1
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
DO YOU KNOW IF THERE'S ANY CARS OVER HERE ON

l
l
16
17
18
19
THE WEST SIDE OF THE ALLEY?
A. SEEMS LIKE THERE'S CARS THERE, BUT YOU CAN'T
REALLY SEE.
Q.
THERE'S SOME SHADOWS RIGHT THERE.
DO YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE CARS ON THE EAST SIDE

,
20 OF THE ALLEY? l
21 A. THERE SHOULD BE RIGHT THERE, YEAH.
22 Q. CAN YOU SEE THEM?

l
23
24
25
26
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
WE CAN'T SEE THEM FROM THIS PICTURE, NO.
DO YOU SEE THIS BIG PALM TREE HERE --
UH-HUH.
-- MR. MARTINEZ?
,
l
J
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. DO YOU SEE HOW IT ACTUALLY BLOCKS OUT A PART OF
l
l
r 2273
r 1 THE HOUSE ACROSS THE STREET?
r 2 A. YES.
r 3
4
Q. IF SOMEONE WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF THAT PALM
TREE, CAN YOU SEE THEM FROM THIS LOCATION?
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
SPECULATION.
OBJECTION. CALLS FOR
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
I GUESS NOT.
r 9
10
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I MEAN, IT BLOCKS OUT A LOT OF ANYTHING THAT
r 11 WOULD BE ON THE STREET IN THAT LOCATION, RIGHT,
r 12
13
MR. MARTINEZ?
A. WELL, YEAH. IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU'RE STANDING,
r 14
15
WHICH WAY YOU'RE LOOKING.
Q. YET YOU TOLD US THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE
r 16
17
PEOPLE ARGUING FROM THE LOCATION YOU WERE STANDING BY
THE CAR, CORRECT?
r 18 A. YES.
r 19 Q. WHAT HOUSE DID YOU GO TO AFTER THE SHOOTING?
20 A. I WENT TO MY FRIEND DANIEL'S HOUSE.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
THIS WOULD BE AT 439 CUYAMACA?
YES.
r 23
24
Q. YOU WERE LIVING AT 319 CUYAMACA AT THIS TIME,
WERE YOU NOT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY DIDN'T YOU GO TO YOUR HOUSE?
r 27 A. I DIDN'T MAKE IT TO MY HOUSE. I WAS JUST
r 28 SCARED. THE CLOSEST HOUSE I REMEMBER WAS MY FRIEND'S.
r
2274
l
l
1 Q. WHICH WOULD BE, WHAT, TWO OR THREE HOUSES UP
2 FROM WHERE YOURS WAS? l
3 A. NO. ABOUT TWO OR THREE BLOCKS AWAY.
4 Q. TWO OR THREE BLOCKS? WHEN YOU WENT TO 439, YOU l
5
6
CRAWLED INTO SOMEBODY'S BED, DID YOU NOT?
A. NO. I WAS LAYING DOWN IN MY FRIEND'S BED.
l
7
8
Q. YOU WERE PRETENDING TO BE ASLEEP WHEN THE
POLICE CAME KNOCKING, CORRECT?
l
9 A. NO. THEY CAME IN AND I WAS LAYING ON THE BED l
10 AND THEY TOLD ME TO GET UP. AS I STARTED TO GET UP,
11 THEY'RE, LIKE, "NEVER MIND. JUST DON'T MOVE."
l _j
12 Q. THEY CHANGED THEIR MIND?

13 A. YES, THEY DID.
1
14
15
Q.
A.
SO YOU WEREN'T FAKING BEING ASLEEP?
NOPE.
l
16 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO THE PARK, MR. MARTINEZ. l
17 IF YOU'RE THIS DISTANCE AWAY WHEN THE SHOTS
18 HAPPENED, OR 10 YARDS UP THE ALLEYWAY, HOW DID YOU GET 1
19 TO BE RIGHT BEHIND MR. DOMINGUEZ AND MS. BANUELOS WHEN
20 THEY HIT THE FORK IN THE ROAD BETWEEN CUYAMACA AND l
FRANKLIN?
21
22 A. I WASN'T RIGHT BEHIND THEM. I COULD SEE THEM
l
23
24
RUNNING.
Q. HOW?
1
25 A. WITH MY EYES. l
26 Q. ARE YOU EXTREMELY FAST ON YOUR FEET?
27 A. YES, I WOULD SAY. l
28 Q. YOU ARE? HOW FAST DO YOU RUN THE 40 YARDS?
l
l
r 2275
r 1 A. I DON'T KNOW. I HAVEN'T TIMED MYSELF.

[ 2 Q. WHAT SPORTS DO YOU PLAY?
3 A. NONE RIGHT NOW.

r 4 Q. SO SHOTS HAPPEN, AND ACCORDING TO YOUR
r 5
6
TESTIMONY, MR. DOMINGUEZ AND MS. BANUELOS RUN
IMMEDIATELY, YOU'RE ABLE TO CATCH UP WITH THEM OVER A
r 7
8
BLOCK AWAY AND SEE WHICH STREET THEY RUN DOWN.
A. YEAH. I DIDN'T CATCH UP TO THEM, BUT I COULD
r 9
10
SEE, LIKE, FAR; YOU KNOW, I COULD SEE THEM RUNNING. AND
r
IT WASN'T JUST THEM; IT WAS OTHER PEOPLE RUNNING TOO.
11 Q. EXCEPT EVEN IF WE LOOK AT PEOPLE'S 50, YOU
r 12
13
COULDN'T SEE IF ANYBODY WAS RUNNING THAT WAY ON
FRANKLIN, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A. YEAH. FROM RIGHT HERE, NO. BUT I WAS DOWN
MORE THAT ALLEY WHEN I WAS WALKING AND THE SHOOTING
r 16
17
HAPPENED.
Q. WHO DID THE SHOOTING?
r 18
19
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW.
YOU DON'T?
r 20 A. NO, I DON'T.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHO GOT SHOT?
MY SISTER'S FRIEND.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT?
BECAUSE WHEN I WAS IN THE COP CAR, THEY HAD THE
r 25
26
LITTLE SCREEN RIGHT THERE, AND YOU COULD SEE WHAT THEY
WERE SAYING AND YOU COULD HEAR, TOO, SAYING I GUESS

[ 27 SOMEBODY HAD GOT SHOT.
r 28 AND THEN I WAS READING THE LITTLE THING, AND
r
2276
l
l
1 THEN THE COP CAME AND CLOSED IT, SHE WAS LIKE, "YOU NEED
2 TO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. ONE OF YOUR FRIENDS JUST GOT l
3 SHOT," AND I WAS, LIKE, "WHOA."
4 AND THEN AFTER THAT THEY CALLED, I GUESS, l
5
6
EVERYBODY. THEY DID A TEST ON MY HANDS. THEY DID
WHAT'S IT CALLED -- LIKE A GUNPOWDER TEST OR SOMETHING.
l
7
8
AND THEN I GUESS THEY WERE LIKE, "THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO
SEE. THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO SEE." AND THEY WERE JUST
l
9 TRYING TO, I GUESS, INTIMIDATE ME. 1
10 Q. SO WHAT NAME DID YOU SEE ON THE DISPLAY OF THIS
11 COMPUTER? l _j
12 A. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING.

13 Q. IT SAID A FRIEND OF YOUR SISTER'S GOT KILLED?
1
14
15
A. NO. THAT'S WHAT THE POLICE OFFICER SAID:
OF YOUR FRIENDS GOT SHOT."
"ONE
l
16 Q. HOW WOULD SHE KNOW?
1
17 A. I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID. SHE WAS
18 SAYING TO ME, "EITHER YOU GUYS SHOT HIM, OR ONE OF YOUR 1
19 FRIENDS GOT SHOT."
20 Q. EXCEPT YOU TALKED TO YOUR LITTLE BROTHER, l
21 RONALD, LATER THAT NIGHT, DIDN'T YOU?
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YOU DIDN'T?
NO.
l
25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING HIM THAT ONE OF HIS l
26 FRIENDS GOT SHOT IN THE PARK, AND THEN WHEN HE ASKED
27 WHICH ONE, YOU SAID, "THE ONE YOU'RE ALWAYS HANGING OUT l
28 WITH"?
l
l
r 2277
r 1 A. NO.
[ 2 Q. AND THEN HE ASKED IF IT WAS MOISES, AND YOU
r
(
3
4
SAID IT WAS?
A. NO, BECAUSE THE ONLY PERSON I TALKED TO WHEN I
r 5
6
WENT HOME WAS MY SISTER, BECAUSE SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE
UP.
r 7
8
Q. SO YOU NEVER TALKED TO RONALD AND TOLD HIM THAT
YOU SAW MOISES GOT SHOT IN THE PARK?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
NO.
BECAUSE IF YOU DID, YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THE
r 11 SHOOTING, RIGHT, MR. MARTINEZ?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I GUESS. I DON'T KNOW.
AND IF YOU HAD THIS INFORMATION THAT IT WAS
r 14
15
SPECIFICALLY THIS KID MOISES WHO WAS ALWAYS HANGING
AROUND WITH RONALD, YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN MOISES GET SHOT,
r 16
17
CORRECT?
A. CORRECT. BUT I GUESS THEY FOUND OUT LATER ON
r 18 THAT DAY OR LATER ON THAT MORNING OR WHATEVER.
r
19 Q. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GUESSING, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
STATEMENT.
SO YOU SAW MOISES GET SHOT IF YOU MADE THAT
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO, I DIDN'T.
AND YOU OBVIOUSLY SAW WHO DID THE SHOOTING,
r 25
26
CORRECT?
A. NO.
l 27 Q. BECAUSE THE PERSON WHO DID THE SHOOTING WAS
r 28 MR. DOMINGUEZ, CORRECT?
r
l ..J
2278
l
1
2
A.
Q.
THAT'S FALSE.
IT IS, BECAUSE HE WAS DOWN ARGUING EITHER
, J
3 BEHIND A TREE OR IN PITCH-BLACK, CORRECT?
4 A. CORRECT.
l
Q. AND YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE BOTH OF THOSE, NO
5
6 MATTER WHAT.
1
7
8
A.
Q.
WELL, YEAH.
TELL ME, MR. MARTINEZ, WHEN WERE THE LIGHTS
l
9 REPLACED IN THIS PARK? l
10 A. I'M NOT SURE.
11 Q. BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT EVEN SURE IF THEY WERE ON 1
12 THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
13 A. I THINK THERE WAS ALWAYS ONE ON, BECAUSE ONE OF
1
14
15
THEM WAS ALWAYS FLICKERING OFF.
Q. MR. MARTINEZ, YOU TOLD US BACK ON THURSDAY THAT
l
16 YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
1
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. YOU DON'T GO BY VANDAL, CORRECT? 1
19 A. CORRECT. ..,
20 Q. WHY DON'T YOU TELL THE JURY WHAT YOU HAVE J
21 TATTOOED ON YOUR CHEST.

22 A. I HAVE TATTOOED "OVP."
l
23
24
Q. CAN WE SEE IT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I WOULD OBJECT TO THAT.
l
25 THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE A PHOTO? l
26 MR. TROCHA: I DO NOT, YOUR HONOR.
27 THE WITNESS: THEY ALREADY TOOK A PHOTO OF IT, l
28 THE POLICE OFFICERS.
l
l
r 2279
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YOUR HONOR, HE CAN SAY WHAT
r 2 IT IS. TO HAVE HIM UNDRESS IN FRONT OF THE JURY IS A
r
3 LITTLE
4 THE COURT: WHERE IS THE TATTOO, SIR?
r 5
6
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
IT'S ACROSS MY CHEST.
WOULD YOU PLEASE REMOVE YOUR SHIRT
r 7
8
SO WE CAN SEE THAT.
LIKE.
YOU CAN STAND RIGHT HERE, IF YOU'D
r 9
10
MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT:
OR HE CAN PULL IT UP, YOUR HONOR.
OR PULL IT UP. AS YOU WISH,
L 11 WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO TO BE ABLE TO SEE IT.
r 12
13 THIS?
THE WITNESS: SHOULD I JUST PUT IT DOWN LIKE
r 14
15
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
IF YOU CAN SEE IT THAT WAY.
YEAH, YOU CAN. THERE IS THE "0"
r 16
17
RIGHT THERE.
MR. TROCHA: FOR THE RECORD, SIX INCHES TALL,
l 18 YOU'D SAY?
r 19 THE WITNESS: MY TATTOO? YES.
20 MR. TROCHA: BLACK OUTLINE, "OVP" WRITTEN IN
r 21
22
KIND OF A GOTHIC SCRIPT.
[ 23 MR. MARTINEZ, THANK YOU. I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY
24 EMBARRASSMENT.
r 25
26
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WHEN DID YOU GET THAT TATTOO, MR. MARTINEZ?
r 27 A. I DON'T REMEMBER. PROBABLY TWO YEARS AGO,
r 28 THREE YEARS AGO.
r
2280
l
l
1 Q. WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR?
2 A. IT STANDS FOR OCEAN VIEW PARK. l
3 Q. WHY DID YOU GET OCEAN VIEW PARK TATTOOED ON
4 YOUR CHEST? l
A. BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE I GREW UP AT. THAT'S
5
l
6
7
WHERE I PLAYED MY SPORTS: BASKETBALL, SOCCER.
ME, IS LIKE HAVING "SAN DIEGO" TATTOOED OR SOMETHING.
THAT, TO
, J
8 Q. OCEAN VIEW PARK IS JUST LIKE HAVING A SAN DIEGO
9 TATTOO? l
10 A. YEAH, TO ME.
l
11
12
13
Q.
KNOW OF?
TO YOU?
WHO ELSE HAS OCEAN VIEW PARK TATTOOS THAT YOU , J
14 A. THE LAST TIME YOU SHOWED MR. DOMINGUEZ'S

l
15
16
TATTOO.
Q. WHO ELSE?
, ]
17 A. I'M NOT SURE.
18 Q. HOW ABOUT YOUR BUDDY VICTOR RAMOS? l
19 A. I DON'T KNOW.
20 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW VICTOR RAMOS? l
21 A. NO. I KNOW HIM. I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS A
22 TATTOO.
l
23
24
Q.
STREET?
IS VICTOR RAMOS A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH
l
26 Q. YOU DON'T? HOW GOOD OF A FRIEND IS HE OF
l
27
28
YOURS?
A. HUH? , J
l
r 2281
r 1
r
Q. HOW GOOD OF A FRIEND ARE YOU WITH HIM?
2 A. WELL, I KNOW HIM. HE'S A GOOD FRIEND, I GUESS.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HIM?
LIKE PROBABLY FOUR YEARS.
r 5
6
Q.
CASTENEDA?
HOW ABOUT A PERSON BY THE NAME OF JAVIER
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH, I KNOW HIM.
DO YOU KNOW IF HE'S A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH
r 9 STREET?
r
10 A. I THINK HE WAS. I'M NOT SURE.
11 Q. HE WAS?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
HE HAD TATTOOS ON HIM.
LIKE YOURS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NO, NOT LIKE MINE.
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
A WHILE BACK.
HOW ABOUT ON APRIL 27, 2007, DID YOU SEE BOTH
r 18 OF THOSE GUYS ON THAT DAY?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
BOTH OF WHICH TWO GUYS?
VICTOR RAMOS AND JAVIER CASTENEDA.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
ON WHAT DAY?
APRIL 27, 2007, AT 3299 GLEASON ROAD.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE FROM THAT DAY.
ON THAT DAY YOU WERE ARRESTED FOR GRAFFITI.
r 25 YOU DON'T REMEMBER THAT?
r
26 A. NO.
27 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER BEING WITH BOTH OF THESE
r 28 INDIVIDUALS WHILE YOU WERE BEING ARRESTED FOR GRAFFITI?
r
2282
1 A. NO, I DON'T. PiJ'I'1

I
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF EITHER OF THEM CLAIMED TO BE I
3 MEMBERS OF A GANG AT THAT TIME?

5 Q. HOW ABOUT JULIO MARTULL, M-A-R-T-U-L-L. WHO IS
6 THAT?
7 A. I DON'T KNOW.
8 Q. YOU WERE HANGING OUT WITH HIM ON MAY 11, 2008,
9
10
11
AT 3600 OCEAN VIEW, CORRECT?
A. I GUESS, IF YOU HAVE IT ON RECORD.
DON'T REALLY REMEMBER.
I MEAN, I , J
12 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER CONFRONTING A BUNCH OF PEOPLE

13 TAGGING "73 LOCOS" AT THAT ADDRESS?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DON'T?
l
16 DO YOU REMEMBER THROWING THINGS AT THEM? l _i
17 A. NO.
18 Q. YOU HAD TO REMEMBER YOUR GIRLFRIEND SIRIA l
19 FORD'S VEHICLE BEING DAMAGED AT THE TIME, THOUGH, RIGHT?
21
22
Q. SHE WASN'T UPSET ABOUT YOU BORROWING THE CAR
AND COMING BACK BUSTED UP?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
WHO IS ALEJANDRO MEZA?
l
25 A. THAT'S SIRIA'S COUSIN. l
26 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE'S A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW MARK MARINO, M-A-R-I-N-0, AVELOS?
l
l
r 2283
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. HOW ABOUT ANDREA RAMOS?
3 A. ANDREA RAMOS?
i
L
4 Q. HOW ABOUT MIGUEL RIVERRA?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
NO.
WERE YOU HANGING OUT WITH THESE THREE PEOPLE ON
r 7
8
JANUARY 4, 2009, AT 3903 OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD?
r 9 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF MARINO AVELOS IS A MEMBER OF
r
10 SHELL TOWN?
11 A. I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS.
r 12
13
Q. HOW ABOUT MIGUEL RIVERRA?
SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?

IS HE A MEMBER OF
r 14
15
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS EITHER.
WHAT WERE YOU DOING ON MARCH 8, 2010, LAST
r 16
17
MONTH, AT 4300 IMPERIAL AVENUE?
A. 4300 IMPERIAL?
r 18 THE COURT: 2010?
r
L
19
20
MR. TROCHA:
BY MR. TROCHA:
CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
LAST YEAR. I'M SORRY.
I DON'T REMEMBER.
2010, MARCH 8.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DO YOU KNOW HUMBERTO BERUMEN?
YES. THAT'S SIRIA'S DAUGHTER'S FRIEND.
r 25 Q. IS HE A MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I DON'T THINK SO.
WHO IS CARLOS GARCIA?
r
2284
1 Q. WHO IS CHUCK NASTY?
2 A. I DON'T KNOW.
3 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT VICTOR RAMOS, YOUR FRIEND
4 OF FOUR YEARS, HIS NICKNAME IS CHUCK NASTY?
5 A. I KNOW HIS NICKNAME IS CHUCK. I DON'T KNOW
6 ABOUT CHUCK NASTY.
7 Q. AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE
8 GANG MEMBERS, CORRECT?
10
11
A. WELL, I MEAN, I DON'T ASK SOMEBODY WHEN I MEET
SOMEBODY, "ARE YOU A GANG MEMBER?"
AND THAT'S IT.

I JUST MEET SOMEBODY , j
12 Q. WE'VE HEARD THAT YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER
13 BECAUSE YOU SAID SO, CORRECT?
14 A. CORRECT.
15
16
Q.
A.
YOU'VE NEVER GONE BY THE NAME VANDAL?
NO, I HAVEN'T.
, I
17 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOU HANG OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS
18
19
20
EVEN IF YOU AREN'T?
A. DO I KNOW IF I HANG OUT WITH GANG MEMBERS?

, l
21 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE, PLEASE.

l
22
23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THE PEOPLE YOU HANG OUT WITH ARE

GANG MEMBERS?
, _!
25 A. WELL, I MEAN, I GUESS. I MEAN, THAT'S WHERE I l

26 LIVE AT. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIKE THERE'S GOING TO BE
27 OTHER PEOPLE FOR ME TO HANG OUT WITH RIGHT THERE. l

28 THAT'S THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THERE.
l
l
r 2285
r 1 Q. YOUR BROTHER, RONALD, IS NOT A GANG MEMBER,

r 2 THOUGH, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
HOW'S HE BEEN ABLE TO AVOID HANGING OUT WITH
r 5
6
GANG MEMBERS WHILE YOU DIDN'T?
A. BECAUSE HE STAYS INSIDE THE HOUSE.
r 7
8
Q.
BODY?
DOES HE HAVE "OCEAN VIEW PARK" TATTOOED ON HIS
r 9 A. I DON'T THINK SO.
r
10 Q. I MEAN, I'M ASSUMING HE ENJOYS PLAYING IN THE
11 PARK AS MUCH AS YOU DO, RIGHT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO. HE NEVER PLAYED SPORTS THERE.
WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST GET "SAN DIEGO" TATTOOED ON
r 14
15
YOUR CHEST?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I WANT TO GET "SAN DIEGO," BUT I
r 16
17
JUST WANT TO GET "SD" LIKE THE PADRE LOGO.
Q. UH-HUH. BUT INSTEAD YOU WENT WITH
r 18 SIX-INCH-HIGH "OVP" ACROSS YOUR CHEST.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
THOSE ARE THE TWO OPTIONS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WHAT TWO OPTIONS?
EITHER "SAN DIEGO" LIKE THE PADRES OR PUT
r 23
24
"OCEAN VIEW" ACROSS YOUR CHEST.
A. OH, NO. I COULD GET WHATEVER I WANT, BUT
r 25 THAT'S JUST WHAT I WANTED TO GET DONE. I FIGURED I'D
r 26
27
GET THAT TO GET IT OVER WITH, THE TATTOO, YOU KNOW?
Q. SO OUT OF ALL THE OPTIONS YOU HAD, "OCEAN VIEW
r 28 PARK" IS THE ONE YOU WENT WITH.
r
2286
1 A. YES.
3 ANSWERED. mq
i
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. LET'S MOVE ON, PLEASE.
5 MR. TROCHA: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE NOTHING

6 FURTHER. THANK YOU.
8 REDIRECT?
9
10
11
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES. THANK YOU.
{DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS NNN, PHOTOGRAPH OF
ALLEY, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
, !
12 {DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 000, PHOTOGRAPH OF

13 STUMP, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
l l
14
l
16 Q. MR. MARTINEZ, SHOWING YOU DEFENSE 000 AND l
17 DEFENSE NNN -- SHOWING YOU THESE PHOTOS, THIS PICTURE
18 WAS TAKEN FROM THE STUMP ON SATURDAY NIGHT, CORRECT? l
19 A. CORRECT. , I
J
20 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WE TALKED ABOUT THIS AREA RIGHT
,
l
21 HERE UNDER THE TREES?
22 A. UH-HUH.
23 Q. HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT ON THE NIGHT OF THE
J
24 SHOOTING?
25 A. THAT WAS DARK RIGHT THERE. l
26 Q. AND IT APPEARS TO BE SHADOWY IN THIS PICTURE;
27 IS THAT RIGHT? l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 2287
r 1
r
Q. AND THAT ANGLE IS FACING TOWARDS WHAT STREET ON
2 THIS MAP?
~
3 A. TOWARDS FRANKLIN STREET AND 40TH.
l 4 Q. SO IT'S FACING FROM ABOUT RIGHT HERE TO THE
r 5
6
CORNER.
A. CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q. SHOWING YOU NNN, THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN ON
SATURDAY NIGHT AS WELL, RIGHT?
r 9 A. YES.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
THAT'S A PICTURE OF THE ALLEY, CORRECT?
UH-HUH.
r 12
13
Q.
CORRECT?
THAT APPEARS TO BE THE LIGHT ABOVE THE TREES,
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE LIGHT BEING THAT BRIGHT ON
r 16
17
THE NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T THINK SO.

r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: PERMISSION TO PUBLISH THESE.
r 19
20
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
ANY OBJECTION?
NONE.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
YOU MAY.
r 23
24
Q. MR. MARTINEZ, WHEN MS. BANUELOS PULLED UP, SHE
PULLED UP FROM FRANKLIN, RIGHT?
r 25 A. CORRECT.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
AND SHE PULLED DOWN THE STREET?
UH-HUH.
r 28 Q. DID YOU SEE HER CAR AS IT DROVE?
r
2288
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND WHEN THE CAR PULLED UP, OR WHEN SHE ARROVE,
3 AT THAT TIME MR. DOMINGUEZ HAD ALREADY TOLD YOU HE
4 CALLED DIANA, RIGHT?
5 A. YEAH. HE HAD TOLD ME WAY BEFORE THAT.
6
7
Q.
A.
SO YOU WERE EXPECTING HER.
YES.
, 1
8 Q. AND WHEN THEY WALKED DOWN THE ALLEY, YOU HAD

~
,
i
9 SEEN THEM TOGETHER UP IN THE ALLEY FIRST, RIGHT?
10 A. I THINK I DID.
11 Q. AND SO THEY WALKED DOWN THE ALLEY, YOU KNEW WHO J
12 WAS DOWN THERE, RIGHT?

1
13
14
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
IT WASN'T LIKE YOU SPOTTED THEM DOWN THE ALLEY
, ]
,
j
15 OUT OF THE BLUE, RIGHT?
16 A. RIGHT. 1
17 Q. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT INFORMATION ABOUT WHO YOU

f1ll9
j
18 HANG OUT WITH. WE MENTIONED SOME NAMES; DO YOU REMEMBER !
19 THAT?
1 J
20 A. YES.
21
22
Q.
RIGHT?
YOU LIVED IN SHELLTOWN MOST OF YOUR LIFE,
l
23
24
A. CORRECT.
l
Q. YOU LIVED A FEW BLOCKS FROM THIS PARK, RIGHT?
~
25 A. YES. J
26 Q. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OCEAN VIEW PARK ON
27 PROSECUTION 2. l
28 A. YES.
l
l
r 2289
r 1 Q. YOU WENT TO SCHOOL WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO

r 2 LIVED IN SHELLTOWN, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
UH-HUH.
AND YOU HANG OUT WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE
r 5
6
IN SHELLTOWN, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
"SHELLTOWN"?
DO YOU HAVE ANY TATTOOS ON YOUR BODY THAT SAY
r 9 A. NO, I DON'T.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
DO YOU HAVE ANY TATTOOS THAT SAY "38TH STREET"?
NO, I DON'T.
r 12
13 40
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
ACTUALLY, SCRATCH THAT.
COUNSEL, CAN I SEE PEOPLE'S
GIVE ME PEOPLE'S 46.
r 14
15
Q. DO YOU SEE THIS SHOT HERE, MR. MARTINEZ?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DOES IT APPEAR AS THOUGH THERE IS AN UNNATURAL
r 18 LIGHT SOURCE, LIKE A FLASH OR SOMETHING, ON THE ALLEY?
r 19
20
A. WELL, FROM RIGHT HERE, THIS IS LIKE MORNING,
LIKE IT WAS A MORNING SHOT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
LOOKS LIKE MORNING, DOESN'T IT?
YEAH.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DOESN'T LOOK LIKE NIGHT AT ALL.
NO, IT DOESN'T.
r 25 Q. SEE THE LIGHT UP THERE?
r 26 A. UH-HUH.
27 Q. LOOKS LIKE THE SUN, DOESN'T IT?
r 28 A. YES.
r
2290
, I
1 Q. BUT THAT'S NOT THE SUN. THAT'S A LIGHT, RIGHT?

2 A. NO. IT'S A LIGHT.
3 Q. NOW GIVE ME PEOPLE'S 40.
4 DO YOU SEE THIS PICTURE FROM THE SAME ANGLE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. THIS IS LOOKING UP THE ALLEY ON FRANKLIN,
~
7 RIGHT? .1
I
1
8 A. YES.
r-,
9 Q. DO YOU SEE THAT LIGHT NOW? I
10 A. UH-HUH.
11
12
13
TO YOU?
Q.
A.
DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IT'S ILLUMINATING THE PARK
NO.
, !

15
16
THE COURT:
RECROSS?
THANK YOU.
, l
17 MR. TROCHA: JUST ONE MORE PHOTO, YOUR HONOR.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. GO BACK TO DEFENSE MMM, MR. MARTINEZ. l
,
l
21 IF THAT LIGHT ABOVE THE TREES WAS NOT ON, THIS
~
22 WHOLE PICTURE WOULD BE BLACK, WOULD IT NOT?

23 A. CORRECT.
J
24 Q. IN FACT, THE AREA YOU WERE STANDING IN IN THE

25 TREES, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THAT BLACKNESS, WOULDN'T l
26 YOU?
27 A. YES, IF THERE IS NO FLASH ON THE CAMERA. l
28 Q. AND IF YOU WERE IN THAT KIND OF DARKNESS, YOU
l
l
r 2291
r 1 WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE ANYBODY'S FACES COMING UP

r 2 THE ALLEYWAY, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ALSO, IF IT WAS THAT DARK AS THE PICTURES THE
5 JURORS ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW IN THE PARK, YOU WOULDN'T
r 6 HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE PEOPLE FIGHTING BY THE BATHROOMS
r 7
8
EITHER, COULD YOU?
A. CORRECT.
r 9 Q. SO AS YOU SIT HERE, WERE THE LIGHTS ON OR OFF?

10 A. WELL, I GUESS THEY WERE ON. YOU GUYS TOOK
r 11 PICTURES AT NIGHT. THEY'RE ON.
r 12
13
r 14
15
THE COURT: MAY MR. MARTINEZ BE EXCUSED?
r 16
17 MAY STEP DOWN.
THE COURT: MR. MARTINEZ, THANK YOU, SIR.
YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE. PLEASE DON'T
YOU
r 18 DISCUSS WHAT WENT ON IN COURT OR WHAT WERE YOU ASKED
r 19
20
WITH ANY OF THE OTHERS WITNESSES, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS,
UNTIL THE CASE IS OVER. OKAY?
21 THE WITNESS: OKAY. MAY I GRAB SOME WATER?
r 22 THE COURT: YOU MAY. FEEL FREE TO TAKE IT WITH
r 23
24
YOU. GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
THE WITNESS: GOOD DAY TO YOU, YOUR HONOR.
r 25
26
THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
r 27 AT THIS TIME, LET ME INQUIRE OUTSIDE. I HAVE
28 DR. VINCE MILLER HERE, BUT I HAVE ANOTHER QUICK WITNESS,
r
r
2292
1 MELVYN KONG.
FIRST.
IF HE'S HERE, I WOULD LIKE TO DO HIM , I
2 I
3 THE COURT: YOU MAY CHECK.

4 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: DEFENSE CALLS VINCE MILLER.
~
5 THE COURT: YOU MAY. I

9 HELP YOU GOD.
13
14
15
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
GOOD MORNING, SIR.
GOOD MORNING.
, J
16
17
THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS ROGER VINCENT MILLER,
,
18
19
R-0-G-E-R, V-I-N-C-E-N-T, M-I-L-L-E-R.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. ,
20
21
22
YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO HAVE AN EXHIBIT, WHICH
, r
I
J
23 IS ALREADY MARKED AS EXHIBIT KKK, IT'S A POWERPOINT

24 PRESENTATION, IT WILL BE UP ON THE SCREEN AND I WILL PUT
25 IT ON THE EXHIBIT TABLE RIGHT NOW. l
26 THE COURT: IS THAT A HARD COPY OF THE
27 POWERPOINT? l
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: CORRECT.
l
l
r 2293
r
r 2 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT KKK, HARD COPY OF

3 POWERPOINT PRESENTATION, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 4 ROGER VINCENT MILLER, PH.D.,
r 5
6
AS FOLLOWS:
r 7
DIRECT EXAMINATION
r 9 Q. GOOD MORNING, DR. MILLER.
r 10
11
A.
Q.
GOOD MORNING.
WHERE DO YOU WORK?
r 12
13
A.
ARIZONA.
I WORK AT CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES IN PHOENIX,
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHAT DO YOU DO THERE?
I'M THE DNA TECHNICAL LEADER AND THE PATERNITY
r 16 LABORATORY DIRECTOR AS WELL.
17 Q. WHAT DOES CHROMOSOMAL LABS DO, IN GENERAL?
r 18 A. WE ARE A DNA TESTING LABORATORY.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
ANYTHING ELSE?
NO, WELL, OTHER THAN SOME -- A FEW ANCILLARY
r 21
22
THINGS SUCH AS DETECTION OF SPERM OR SALIVA, A FEW OF
THE PRESCREENING TYPE TESTS. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
OKAY.
YES.
DO YOU ALSO DO CONSULTING?
r 25
26
Q.
A.
WHAT KIND OF CONSULTING?
WE CONSULT -- WELL, PRIVATELY OR FOR THE
r 27 COMPANY?
r 28 Q. PRIVATELY.
r
2294
! I
1 A. NO. t'lr'TI
i
2 Q. HOW ABOUT FOR THE COMPANY? I
3 A. FOR THE COMPANY WE DO CASE REVIEWS.

4 Q. WHAT IS A CASE REVIEW?
1'1111
5 A. BASICALLY WHAT WE DO IS WE GO THROUGH AND LOOK
!
.,
J
6 AT THE DNA TESTING PROCEDURES AND RESULTS AND

7 CONCLUSIONS AND ALSO THE REPORTS AND LOOK AT AND TRY TO I
J
8 DETERMINE THE SCIENTIFIC VALIDITY OF THOSE REPORTS THAT

~
I
9 HAVE BEEN GENERATED BY ANOTHER LABORATORY. l
10 Q. LET'S BACK UP FOR A MINUTE.

11 BEFORE YOU WORKED AT CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES, l
12 WHERE DID YOU WORK?
13 A. I WORKED AT AIR TECH LABORATORIES, WHICH WAS AN
l
14
15
INDOOR AIR AND MICROBIOLOGY LABORATORY.
Q. WHAT DID YOU DO FOR THEM?
l
16 A. I WAS THE VICE-PRESIDENT AND TECHNICAL LEADER l
17 THERE.
18 Q. AND BEFORE THAT WHERE DID YOU WORK? l
19 A. I WORKED FOR A SMALL COMPANY THAT DID NATURAL
20 PRODUCT ISOLATION AND GENETICS OFF OF THAT. l
21
22
Q. WHAT KIND OF EDUCATION DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO
BE IN THIS FIELD?
l
23
24
A. I HAVE A PH.D. IN PLANT PATHOLOGY, WITH
EXPERTISE IN MOLECULAR BIOLOGY.
l
25 Q. AND WHERE DID YOU GET THAT? l
26 A. I OBTAINED THAT PH.D. IN 1983 FROM MONTANA
27 STATE UNIVERSITY. l
28 Q. HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO GET A PH.D.?
l
l
r 2295
r 1 A. IT TOOK ME LONGER THAN MOST. IT TOOK ME FIVE

r 2 YEARS AFTER THE MASTER'S DEGREE, SO I WAS IN A COLLEGE
r
I
3
4
FOR A TOTAL OF 11 YEARS.
Q. THAT'S AFTER HIGH SCHOOL?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
AFTER HIGH SCHOOL.
WHAT DID YOU WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION ON?
i 7
8
A. I WROTE IT ON METHODS TO ELIMINATE GENETIC
COMPONENTS FROM BACTERIA AND VIRUSES WITH THE IDEA OF
r 9 MAKING NEW DRUGS FOR HUMAN BEINGS.
r
10 Q. WHAT KIND OF DNA TESTING HAVE YOU DONE IN THE
11 PAST?
r 12
13
A. WELL, WE DID SOME DURING THE INDOOR AIR AND
MICROBIOLOGY, WE DID MANY OF THE SAME TECHNIQUES; IT'S
r 14
15
CALLED POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION. AND THEN SINCE I'VE
JOINED CHROMOSOMAL, I WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDING
r 16
17
INDIVIDUALS THERE, SO I STARTED UP AND DID ALL THE
VALIDATIONS FOR OUR LABORATORY AND ALSO SEVERAL THOUSAND
r 18 SAMPLES THROUGH -- FOR HUMAN BEING IDENTIFICATION.
19 Q. SPEAKING OF YOUR LABORATORY, YOU SAID SOMETHING
r 20 THAT YOU DID RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. WHAT WAS THAT?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
VALIDATION.
WHAT ARE THOSE?
r 23
24
A. VALIDATION IS A PROCEDURE WHERE YOU ESTABLISH
THE THRESHOLDS WHERE THE CHEMISTRY AND THE
r 25
26
INSTRUMENTATION ARE WORKING PROPERLY.
Q. WHO ACCREDITS YOUR LAB?
r 27 A. WE'RE ACCREDITED BY A NUMBER OF ORGANIZATIONS.
r 28 BUT FOR FORENSICS WE'RE ACCREDITED BY WHAT'S CALLED
r
2296
~
I
1 FORENSIC QUALITY SERVICES, INCORPORATED, WHICH IS A

'"9
2 SPIN-OFF OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT FOR PRIVATE I
I
3 LABORATORIES. "'9
t
I
4 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT BB, THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT

5 REACCREDITATION, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
7 Q. APPROACHING WITH DEFENSE BB, IT'S A THREE-PAGE
8 DOCUMENT. THIS WILL ALSO BE ON THE POWERPOINT, DOCTOR.
~
i
9 CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE FIRST PAGE, WHICH IS ALSO !
10 BEHIND YOU ON THE TELEVISION.

11 WHAT IS THAT?
12 A. THIS IS OUR ACCREDITATION THROUGH FFQSI, WHICH
l
13
14
IS ONE OF TWO ACCREDITING BODIES RECOGNIZED BY THE FBI
OR TWO ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE COMPETING PROGRAMS.
, I
_;
15 Q. HOW DO YOU BECOME ACCREDITED BY THIS

16 ORGANIZATION? l
17 A. WE HAVE TO UNDERGO -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE ,
18
19
HAVE A NUMBER OF EDUCATIONAL ASPECTS THAT I HAVE TO MEET
AS THE DIRECTOR AND EACH OF OUR ANALYSTS HAS TO AS WELL. , j
20
21
WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH PROFICIENCY TESTING, AND
THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO DO EXTERNAL SAMPLES THAT ARE KNOWN , !
J
22 BY AN EXTERNAL PARTY, SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T KNOW.
~
23 THEY SEND IT TO US BLINDLY. WE HAVE TO ANALYZE IT AND
J
24 THEN SHOW THAT WE GET THE CORRECT RESULTS.
25 Q. WHAT ARE YOU ACCREDITED TO DO? 1 J
26 A. WE'RE ACCREDITED TO DO DNA TESTING AND

27 BIOLOGICAL SAMPLING FOR FORENSICS. AND THEN WE'RE ALSO l
28 ACCREDITED BY OTHER ORGANIZATIONS TO DO PATERNITY
l
l
r 2297
r
1 TESTING AND STATISTICS AS WELL.
r 2 Q. LOOKING AT PAGE 2 OF THIS EXHIBIT, WHAT IS THIS
r 3
4
ACCREDITATION?
A. THIS IS THROUGH THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION -- THE

5 AABB, WHICH IS THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR BLOOD BANKS,
r 6 WHICH IS THE ONE THAT'S RECOGNIZED BY HOMELAND SECURITY
r 7
8
AND BY ALL THE STATES THAT REQUIRE THERE ARE A FEW OF
THEM THAT DON'T REQUIRE -- ACCREDITATION FOR DOING
r 9 PATERNITY TESTING AND STATISTICS.
r
10 Q. AND PAGE 3, WHAT IS THIS?
11 A. WE HAVE A COUPLE OF OTHER ONES THAT WE HAVE TO
r 12
13
MATCH. WE ACTUALLY ARE ALSO ACCREDITED BY NEW YORK.
AND ACTUALLY NEW YORK -- THE WAY THEY WORK IS THEIR
r 14
15
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SCIENCES ACTUALLY COMES IN, AND
WE'RE ACCREDITED FOR BOTH FORENSICS AND PATERNITY
r 16
17
UNDERNEATH THAT PROGRAM.
THEY ALSO DO EXTERNAL AUDITS. ALL OF THESE ARE
r 18 DOING EXTERNAL AUDITS ONCE EVERY TWO YEARS. IN ONE
r 19
20
CASE, NFSTC, WE ACTUALLY HAVE IT EVERY YEAR. SO WE HAVE
AN EXTERNAL SERIES OF PEOPLE THAT COME AND ACTUALLY LOOK
r 21
22
THROUGH THE LABORATORY AND MAKE SURE WE'RE FOLLOWING
GOOD PROCEDURES.
r 23
24
FOR NEW YORK, THEY DON'T ACCREDIT THE
LABORATORY, THEY ACCREDIT THE DIRECTOR, WHICH IS ME.
r 25 Q.
A.
AND HOW DO YOU GET THIS ACCREDITATION?
AGAIN, WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS WHERE
r
26
27 ALL OF OUR STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES AND OUR
r 28 EDUCATIONAL STATUS IS SUBMITTED TO THEM. THEY THEN SEND
r
2298
~
I
1 OUT AN EXTERNAL AUDITOR, WHO WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO rm7!

!
2 HAVE ONE IN ABOUT A WEEK, WHO WILL ACTUALLY GO THROUGH

3 THE ENTIRE PROCESS, LOOK AT CASE FILES, MAKE SURE WE'RE , I
I
4 FOLLOWING GOOD QUALITY PROCEDURES.
5 Q. WHAT ARE YOU ACCREDITED TO DO IN THIS
6 PARTICULAR --
7 A. FOR NEW YORK WE'RE ACCREDITED FOR BOTH FORENSIC I i
8 TESTING AND HUMAN IDENTIFICATION FOR PATERNITY TYPE

~
I
9 TESTING.
10 Q. IS THAT WITH THE USE OF DNA? ~
!
11 A. YES. IT'S ALL WITH DNA. l
12 Q. EVERYTHING YOU DO HAS TO DO WITH DNA?

13 A. PRETTY MUCH, YES.
l
14 Q. ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY PROFESSIONAL
15 ASSOCIATIONS?
,
16
17
18
A. I'M A FULL MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN ACADEMY FOR
FORENSIC SCIENCES.
Q. WHAT IS THAT?
, I
19 A. THAT IS A -- THAT IS THE PREMIER ORGANIZATION

20 FOR FORENSIC SCIENCE PROFESSIONALS.
1 1
21 Q. HAVE YOU MADE ANY PRESENTATIONS OR LECTURES OR

1 j
22 TAUGHT AT ALL IN THE AREA OF DNA?

23 A. WELL, I AM A -- ACTUALLY I AM A PROFESSOR AT A
24 COMMUNITY COLLEGE, SO I ACTUALLY TEACH EVERY TUESDAY AND
"'9
25 THURSDAY ON HUMAN GENETICS. l
J
26 ALONG WITH THAT I HAVE GIVEN PRESENTATIONS TO

27 AMERICAN ACADEMY FOR FORENSIC SCIENCES, FOR PROMEGA, l
28 WHICH IS ANOTHER ORGANIZATION THAT ACTUALLY SPONSORS DNA
l
l
r 2299
r 1 TESTING FOR FORENSICS. AND I WAS ACCEPTED --

r 2 UNFORTUNATELY, I COULDN'T GO BECAUSE OF THE VOLCANO
r 3
4
TO GO TO AN INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR Y CHROMOSOMAL
DNA.
r 5
6 DNA?
Q. HAVE YOU PUBLISHED ANY SCHOLARLY ARTICLES ON
r 7
8
A. IN THE AREA OF FORENSICS, WE'VE ONLY HAD
ABSTRACTS WHICH HAVE BEEN GIVEN, AND WE HAVE ONE
r 9 OUTSTANDING ARTICLE RIGHT NOW THAT HAS GONE THROUGH
r 10
11
REVIEW, AND WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF REVISING IT, ON Y
CHROMOSOMAL DNA, WHICH IS MALE-SPECIFIC DNA.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DO YOU PEER REVIEW OTHER WORK OF SCIENTISTS?
WELL CERTAINLY WE DO DURING THE PROCESS OF CASE
r 14
15
REVIEWS, BUT I'VE ALSO ACTED AS A REVIEWER FOR TECHNICAL
PUBLICATIONS FOUR OR FIVE TIMES IN MY CAREER.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
HAVE YOU TESTIFIED IN COURT BEFORE?
YES. I'VE TESTIFIED 19 TIMES FOR DNA.
r 18 Q. AND DURING THOSE TIMES, DID YOU QUALIFY AS AN
r 19
20
EXPERT IN FORENSIC DNA?
A. YES, I DID.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WAS THERE EVER A TIME YOU WEREN'T QUALIFIED?
NO.
r 23
24
Q.
TO TEST DNA.
LET'S MOVE ON TO THE PROCESS THAT YOUR LAB USES
r 25 HOW DOES IT START?
r 26
27
A. WELL, WE REVIEW A SAMPLE.
OR IT MAY BE A REFERENCE.
IT MAY BE EVIDENCE
IF IT'S A REFERENCE, IT'S
r 28 USUALLY A CHEEK TYPE OF SWAB.
r
2300
~
I
1 Q. AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT?
2 A. THERE MAY BE A SCREENING PROCESS. DEPENDING ON
3 WHAT -- IF IT'S A PIECE OF EVIDENCE, THERE MAY BE A

l
4
5
SCREENING TO SEE IF THERE IS BLOOD OR SALIVA OR SEMEN.
SO THERE MAY BE THAT PROCESS THAT GOES FORWARD. , !

6 AND THEN FROM THERE THE ITEM WILL BE SAMPLED
~
7 ACCORDINGLY. AND IT DEPENDS UPON THE TYPE OF SAMPLE.
l
8 IN SOME CASES FOR EVIDENCE, THERE WILL BE ACTUALLY A
~
i
9 CUTTING TAKEN OUT OF IT. IN SOME CASES THERE WILL BE A
10 SWABBING TAKEN OF THE ITEM. AND USUALLY IT'S WITH A
11 BUFFER FOLLOWED BY -- OR ACTUALLY JUST A WATER FOLLOWED l

12 BY A DRY SWAB. ~
\
13 Q. AFTER THE SWABBING, WHAT DO YOU DO NEXT?
~
A.
,
14 THOSE ARE PLACED INTO SMALL TUBES, AND AN i
J
15 EXTRACTION BUFFER IS PLACED INTO THOSE TUBES, WHICH HAS
16 A PROTEIN WHICH HELPS BREAK DOWN THE CELL WALL, AND WE j

I
17 ALSO HAVE SOME STABILIZERS IN THERE. AND THEN WE HEAT
18 IT AS WELL TO HELP BREAK OPEN THE CELLS AND RELEASE THE
19 DNA INTO THE SOLUTION.
20 Q. AND THEN ONCE THE DNA IS IN THE SOLUTION, WHAT

l
,
l
21 DO YOU DO NEXT?
22 A. FOR FORENSIC SAMPLES, WE ARE MANDATED TO DO
23 WHAT'S CALLED QUANTIFICATION, SO WE ACTUALLY WILL TAKE A j
24 VERY SMALL AMOUNT. NOW, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT
25 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HALF A DROP RIGHT NOW, USUALLY l

26 SOMEPLACE BETWEEN A HALF A DROP AND A DROP THAT WE HAVE
27 OF THE EXTRACT WE'RE WORKING WITH. l

28 WE WILL TAKE TWO MICROLITERS OF THAT, WHICH IS
l
l
r 2301
r 1 ABOUT ONE 25TH OF A DROP, AND WE'LL PLACE THAT INTO A
r 2 TUBE AND WE'LL DO WHAT'S CALLED POLYMERASE CHAIN
r 3
4
REACTION. AND THIS IS A WAY OF MAKING A COPY.
YOU CAN THINK OF IT AS A PHOTOCOPIER. THAT
r 5
6
PHOTOCOPIER IS GOING TO MAKE A COPY OF DNA THAT'S
SPECIFIC FOR HUMAN DNA, AND IT'S GOING TO TELL US HOW
r 7
8
MUCH HUMAN DNA IS THERE. AND WE ALSO HAVE THE ABILITY
TO TELL IF THERE IS A MALE DNA. SO WE HAVE BOTH TOTAL
r 9 DNA, HUMAN DNA AND MALE DNA.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
HOW DO YOU TELL IF THERE IS MALE DNA?
THERE IS A SPECIFIC PLACE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO
r 12
13
MAKE COPIES OF. IF THERE'S A FEMALE, YOU WON'T MAKE ANY
COPIES, SO YOU HAVE NO PRODUCT COMING OFF OF IT.
r 14
15
Q.
LIKE?
AFTER THE PCR IS DONE, WHAT DO THE RESULTS LOOK
l 16 A. YOU'LL HAVE -- THERE WILL BE SOME PEAKS THAT
17 COME OFF OF THE ANALYSIS, BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT
r 18 THAT. IT'S BASED UPON THE SLOPE AND WHEN IT STARTS AS
19 TO HOW MUCH HUMAN DNA IS THERE. SO THE ACTUAL RESULTS

r 20 THAT WE USUALLY VIEW, ALONG WITH SOME STANDARDS AND SOME
r 21
22
CONTROLS TO MAKE SURE IT'S WORKING CORRECTLY, WILL BE IN
THE ACTUAL NUMERICAL VALUE. IT WILL TELL YOU HOW MANY
r 23
24
NANOGRAMS OR PICOGRAMS OF DNA YOU HAVE PRESENT.
Q. AND HAVE YOU HEARD OF SOMETHING CALLED AN
r 25
26
ELECTROPHEROGRAM?
A. YES.
A. THAT'S THE NEXT STEP. AFTER WE'VE DONE THE
r 28
r
~I
2302
, I
1 QUANTIFICATION, WE WILL KNOW HOW MUCH DNA TO PUT INTO

2 OUR ACTUAL ANALYSIS, AND AT THAT POINT WE'LL DO WHAT'S
3 KNOWN AS SHORT TANDEM REPEATS, WHICH IS THE METHOD OF
4 CHOICE RIGHT NOW, OR STR'S. AND THESE ARE AREAS THAT
5 VARY BETWEEN PEOPLE.
l
6
7
NOW, YOU CAN THINK OF IT AS KIND OF LIKE AN
ADDRESS, AND THAT'S THE WAY I LIKE TO MAKE THE ANALOGY.
, I
8 IF I GIVE YOU ONE NUMBER OF AN ADDRESS, A LOT OF US MAY

~
HAVE THAT NUMBER. SO AT ONE SPOT YOU MAY BE THE SAME AS i
9 J
10 I AM, BUT AT THE NEXT SPOT YOU WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT

11 NUMBER THAN I MIGHT HAVE.
12 SO IF WE SAY THE FIRST NUMBER IS NUMBER 1, THEN
13
14
15
YOU MAY HAVE A NUMBER 1 AS YOUR FIRST NUMBER.
I SAY 18, THAT WILL ELIMINATE A LOT OF PEOPLE.
EVENTUALLY IT BECOMES VERY UNIQUE.
BUT WHEN
SO WE USE THAT
SO
, 1
16 METHOD TO ACTUALLY GO FORWARD. l

17 THE ANALYSIS HAS 16 REACTIONS THAT ARE ONGOING
18 ALL AT THE EXACT SAME TIME UNLESS WE'RE USING ONE OF THE 1
19 METHODS THAT WE'LL TALK ABOUT IN A LITTLE BIT, WHICH
20
21
22
THERE IS NINE INSTEAD OF 16. BUT, IN ANY CASE, THERE'S
ALL THESE REACTIONS GOING ALL AT THE SAME TIME, AND WE
MAKE COPIES. WE LITERALLY MAKE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF
,
l
j
23 COPIES WITH A LITTLE TAG ON IT SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY

l
24 THEN ANALYZE WHAT YOUR ADDRESS IS AND WHAT MY ADDRESS
25 IS. l
26 Q. HOW DOES REPRODUCIBILITY PLAY A PART IN YOUR
27 LAB? l
28 A. LET ME GO BACK TO THE ELECTROPHEROGRAM.
l
l
r 2303
r 1 WHAT HAPPENS THEN IS THESE ADDRESSES COME OFF

r 2 AS PEAKS. THOSE ARE CALLED ELECTROPHEROGRAMS.
r 3
4 Q.
THEN YOUR NEXT QUESTION WAS?
REPRODUCIBILITY.
r 5
6
A. REPRODUCIBILITY. REPRODUCITILITY IS EXTREMELY
IMPORTANT NOT ONLY FROM OUR LAB, BUT FROM LAB TO LAB.
r 7
8
AND BASICALLY WHAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IS TO DO AN
AMPLIFICATION AND SHOW THAT YOU GET THE EXACT SAME
r 9 RESULTS MORE THAN ONCE. AND THIS BECOMES PARTICULARLY
r 10
11
IMPORTANT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LOW AMOUNTS OF DNA.
Q. IN ORDER TO GET REPRODUCIBILITY, IS IT JUST
r 12
13
SUFFICIENT THAT YOU SWAB SOMETHING MORE THAN ONCE AND
RUN IT THROUGH MORE THAN ONCE, OR WHAT DO YOU NEED TO DO
r 14
15
TO GET REPRODUCIBILITY?
A. WELL, REPRODUCIBILITY CAN BE DONE EITHER
r 16
17
BETWEEN DIFFERENT SWABS, BUT OFTENTIMES YOU'RE GOING TO
HAVE DIFFERENT DNA'S THAT ARE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE,
r 18 PARTICULARLY FROM EVIDENCE.

19 SO REPRODUCIBILITY OFTENTIMES WILL NOT BE THE
r 20 SAME WITHIN TWO SAMPLES FROM THE SAME PIECE OF EVIDENCE,
r 21
22
BECAUSE SOMEBODY'S DNA MAY BE IN ONE SPOT, BUT NOT IN A
DIFFERENT SPOT. SO REPRODUCIBILITY THEN BECOMES A
r 23
24
LITTLE PROBLEMATIC.
SO PART OF OUR REPRODUCIBILITY WILL BE BY DOING
r 25
26
THE AMPLIFICATION AGAIN. IF YOU CAN DO THE EXTRACTION
AGAIN AND YOU KNOW THAT IT'S A SINGLE SOURCE OR IF YOU
r 27 CAN CUT YOUR SOURCE IN HALF, IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO DO SO.
r 28 Q. HOW ABOUT THE CONDITIONS? HOW DO THOSE AFFECT
r
1
2304
1 YOUR REPRODUCIBILITY?
2 A. WHEN WE DO REPRODUCIBILITY, WE ALWAYS USE THE
3 SAME DILUTION AND SAME CONDITIONS, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY
4 ESSENTIAL.
5 Q. AND THEN ONCE YOU HAVE A SAMPLE, HOW DO YOU
6 DETERMINE WHETHER THAT IS OR THE LIKELIHOOD THAT
7 SOMEBODY IS A CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT SAMPLE? 1
8 A. WELL, IT A LITTLE BIT DEPENDS UPON THE PEAKS.
9 IF YOU HAVE SOME VERY, VERY LARGE PEAKS, WE CALL IT A
10 MAJOR PROFILE, YOU MAY HAVE A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.
11 NOW, WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TYPICALLY ON AN
12 ELECTROPHEROGRAM IS YOU'LL HAVE TWO PEAKS, IF IT'S FROM ~l
13
14
15
YOU: ONE FROM YOUR MOTHER AND ONE FROM YOUR FATHER.
SOMETIMES YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR FATHER GIVE YOU THE SAME
PEAKS AND YOU ONLY HAVE ONE PEAK, AND THAT'S OKAY.
, I
16
17
BUT, IN ANY CASE, IF YOU HAVE A MAJOR PEAK, AND
PARTICULARLY IF IT'S A SINGLE CONTRIBUTOR, THEN YOU CAN ,
18
19
RESOLVE THAT INTO IDENTIFYING, AND THEM YOU COMPARE
THAT, IF IT'S ON A PIECE OF EVIDENCE, TO THE KNOWN , J
20
21
22
PROFILES THAT YOU GENERATE. SO YOU'LL HAVE REFERENCES
FROM INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU THEN COMPARE THEIR PROFILES.
Q. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SINGLE SOURCE
, I
23 PROFILE AND MIXTURE PROFILE?

24 A. SO WHAT HAPPENS WITH A SINGLE SOURCE PROFILE IS
25 WE WILL ONLY HAVE EVIDENCE OF ONE INDIVIDUAL, AND THEN l
26 YOU CAN MATCH IT ACROSS AND SEE IF IT MATCHES. AND IF
l
27
28
IT DOES, THEN YOU DO APPROPRIATE STATISTICS.
SO TYPICALLY YOU ONLY SEE TWO, SOMETIMES ONLY , J
l
r 2305
r 1 ONE, PEAK IN EACH OF THE DIFFERENT PLACES WE'RE LOOKING

r 2 ON THIS ADDRESS. IF YOU SEE MORE THAN TWO PEAKS,
r
I
3
4
OCCASIONALLY SOMEBODY CAN HAVE A TRI-ALLELE. SO IF
THERE IS ONLY ONE OR TWO, THEN YOU KIND OF GO, "WELL, IT
r 5
6
MIGHT BE A MIXTURE."
IT MIGHT NOT BE. THE MOST WELL-KNOWN ONE IS
r 7
8
DOWN'S SYNDROME, FOR INSTANCE, THAT YOU HAVE THREE
COPIES OF THAT ONE. SO THAT WOULD BE ONE EXAMPLE I
r 9 THINK YOU COULD RELATE TO. BUT IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN
r 10
11
TWO ALLELES IN MULTIPLE SITES, THEN YOU SAY IT'S A
MIXTURE. AND DEPENDING ON HOW MANY ALLELES ARE THERE,
r 12
13
THEN YOU DETERMINE HOW MANY INDIVIDUALS MAY BE THERE.
SO IF YOU HAVE FOUR ALLELES, IT COULD BE TWO OR
r
t
14 MORE. IT ACTUALLY COULD BE FOUR PEOPLE. SO IT'S TWO OR
15 MORE PEOPLE. IF YOU HAVE FIVE ALLELES, IT'S GOING TO BE
r 16
17
THREE OR MORE, AND SO FORTH.
Q. SO SEVEN ALLELES WOULD BE WHAT?
r 18 A. FOUR OR MORE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
AND THAT'S ALLELES PER LOCUS, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHAT'S A LOCUS?
THE LOCUS IS THAT ADDRESS. IT'S THE FIRST
r 23
24
NUMBER OF YOUR ADDRESS.
Q. WHEN YOU'RE DOING A COMPARISON BETWEEN A SAMPLE
r 25 AND A PERSON, HOW MANY LOCUS OR LOCI DO YOU USE?
r 26
27
A. WELL, IT DEPENDS AGAIN A LITTLE BIT. IF IT'S A
SAMPLE THAT HAS HIGH AMOUNTS OF DNA AND HAS ADEQUATE DNA
r 28 TO USE THE NORMAL PROCEDURE, WE USUALLY USE 15 LOCI PLUS
r
~
2306
1 !
1 ONE MORE TO TELL IF IT'S A BOY OR GIRL. SO IT'S

2 ACTUALLY 16 TOTAL. l
3 IF IT'S DEGRADED DNA, THEN WE DROP DOWN TO NINE
4 LOCI, WHICH IS ACTUALLY EIGHT LOCI PLUS ONE TO TELL IF
l
5
6
IT'S A BOY OR GIRL.
Q. MOVING ON TO SOME OF THE WORK YOU DID FOR MY
1
7 LAW FIRM, AT SOME POINT I ASKED YOU TO TEST AND SWAB AN
1
8 ITEM CALLED ITEM 44, A WHITE T-SHIRT. DO YOU REMEMBER
9 THAT? 1
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER GETTING THAT?
12 A. YES, I DO.
13 Q. AND HOW DID YOU SWAB IT?
~
,
14 A. BASICALLY IT WAS SWABBED IN THE NECK AREA l
j
15 AND MAY I LOOK AT MY NOTES?

16
17
Q.
A.
YES, IF IT WILL REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION.
SO WE DID A SWAB OF THE INSIDE OF THE NECK AND ,
18 THE ARMPITS.
,
I
19 Q. AND THEN HOW DID YOU OBTAIN THAT SAMPLE?

J
20 A. THAT WAS SUBMITTED -- IT WAS ACTUALLY IN THE
l
,
21 POSSESSION OF THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT. IT WAS
22 SECURED BY AN INDIVIDUAL WE HAVE HERE THAT WORKS WITH
23 US, LARRY CISNEROS, WITH THE PROPER CHAIN OF CUSTODY,
24 AND THEN IT WAS SENT TO OUR LABORATORY IN PHOENIX.
25 Q. AND YOU DON'T -- AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, YOU GOT IT l
26 FROM SOMEWHERE IN SAN DIEGO, OR LARRY DID, RIGHT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. HE MIGHT HAVE GOT IT FROM THE COURT.
l
l
r 2307
r 1 A. HE MAY HAVE GOTTEN IT FROM THE COURT, YES.
r 2 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU WERE DONE WITH IT, WHERE DID
r 3
4
YOU SEND IT?
A. WE SENT IT BACK TO LARRY, WHO THEN RETURNED IT
r 5
6
TO THE PLACE THAT IT WAS.
Q. AFTER YOU SWABBED THE SAMPLE, DID YOU EXTRACT
r 7
8
DNA FROM IT?
A. YES, WE DID. ACTUALLY, WE HAD TWO SAMPLES. WE
r 9 HAD ONE THAT WAS FROM THE INSIDE OF THE NECK AND
r 10
11
ARMPITS, AND WE ALSO HAD A STAIN THAT APPEARED TO BE
BLOOD ON THE OUTSIDE. SO WE DID BOTH OF THOSE.
F' 12 Q. OKAY. TALKING RIGHT NOW ABOUT JUST THE SWAB OF

~
13 THE NECK AND THE ARMPITS, WERE YOU ABLE TO OBTAIN A
r 14
15
RESULT?
A. YES, WE WERE.
r 16
17
Q.
DOMINGUEZ?
AND DID YOU COMPARE THAT RESULT WITH FLORENCIO
r 19
20
Q. AND HOW DID YOU KNOW WHAT FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ'S
DNA PROFILE WAS?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WE ALSO HAD A REFERENCE FROM MR. DOMINGUEZ.
OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT?
r 23
24
A. THE RESULT WAS THAT WE CONCLUDED THAT HE WAS
EXCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE CONTRIBUTOR TO THE NECK AND
r 25 ARMPIT.
r 26
27
Q.
LOPEZ?
DID YOU COMPARE IT TO SOMEBODY NAMED TOMAS
r
2308
l
l
1 Q. AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT?
2 A. THE RESULT WAS, WITH ALL THE LOCI THAT YIELDED 1
3 RESULTS, MR. LOPEZ WAS CONSISTENT WITH IT.
4 Q. DID YOU HAVE A STAT TO GO WITH IT?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
YES, WE DID.
WHAT WAS THAT STAT?
1
7 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS APPROXIMATELY 4,000 TO 1.
l
8 Q. 4,000 TO 1, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
9 A. WE DID WHAT WAS CALLED A LIKELIHOOD RATIO BASED l
10 UPON THE FACT THAT IT APPEARED THERE WERE TWO , J
11 INDIVIDUALS. WE HAD A MIXTURE.
12 Q. LET'S BACK UP FOR A SECOND.
13 A. OKAY.
l
14
15
Q. WAS THE SAMPLE YOU GOT FROM THE T-SHIRT -- WAS
IT A MIXED SAMPLE OR SINGLE SOURCE?
1
16 A. IT WAS A MIXED SAMPLE. l
18 A. WE HAD MORE THAN TWO ALLELES AT NUMEROUS LOCI 1
19 THAT WERE TESTED.
20 Q. OKAY. NOW, THE SAMPLE THAT YOU GOT, DID YOU 1
21
22
USE ALL 16?
A. NO. WE ACTUALLY WENT -- BECAUSE IT WAS
l
23 DEGRADED DNA, WHEN WE DID OUR ACTUAL QUANTIFICATION TO
l
24 FIND OUT HOW MUCH DNA WAS THERE, WE WERE ABLE TO
25 ASCERTAIN THAT THERE WAS LOW LEVELS OF DNA. AND BECAUSE l
26 OF THAT, WE WENT TO A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT CHEMISTRY THAT
27 DOES THE SAME LOCI, BUT IT ONLY DOES EIGHT PLUS ONE, l
28 TOTAL OF NINE LOCI.
l
l
r 2309
r 1 Q. IS THAT CALLED THE MIXED PARTIAL AUTOSOMAL
r 2 PROFILE TECHNIQUE?
r 3
4
A.
CHEMISTRY.
IT'S ACTUALLY CALL A MINIFILER, IS THE
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AND WHAT IS THAT?
IT IS A COMMERCIAL KIT THAT IS ACCEPTED BY THE
r 7
8
FBI. IT'S BEEN DEVELOPED BY WHAT WAS CALLED APPLIED
BIOSYSTEMS, NOW CALLED LIFE TECHNOLOGIES.
r 9 Q. AND YOU SAID THE STAT WAS 4,090 TO 1?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
12
r 13
A. WELL, THE WAY WE DID THE STATISTICS
A COUPLE WAYS YOU CAN DO STATISTICS.
THERE'S
ONE IS IF YOU KNOW
r 14
15
WHAT THE PROFILES ARE, YOU CAN LOOK AT HOW OFTEN THAT
WOULD HAPPEN IN THE GENERAL POPULATION. IT WOULD BE
r 16
17
CALLED A RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY.
IF YOU HAVE A MIXTURE, SUCH AS THE ONE WE HAVE
r 18 HERE, WE HAVE ONE OF TWO POSSIBILITIES. ONE WOULD BE TO

19 TRY TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT -- NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE
r 20 PERSON'S DNA, BUT JUST SAY HE'S CONSISTENT HERE, SO WE
r 21
22
JUST DO WHAT'S THE PROBABILITY OF SOMEBODY ADDING
SOMETHING TO THAT. THAT'S CALLED PROBABILITY OF
r 23
24
INCLUSION OR EXCLUSION, WHICH IS THE ONE WHICH YOU'LL BE
TALKING ABOUT LATER.
r 25 AND THEN THERE'S THIS OTHER ONE, WHICH IS THE

LIKELIHOOD RATIO, AND THAT BASICALLY TAKES INTO ACCOUNT
r
L
26
27 THE PERSON'S DNA PROFILE AND IT SAYS, "OKAY, WHAT'S THE
r 28 PROBABILITY OF THAT PERSON BEING THERE WITH ANOTHER
r
~
J
2310
l
1 UNKNOWN PERSON VERSUS TWO UNKNOWN PEOPLE?" AND SO WE'RE
2 NOW ACTUALLY TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE DNA FROM THAT 1
3 INDIVIDUAL AS PART OF THIS.
4 AND USING THAT PARTICULAR TYPE OF STATISTIC, WE
l
5
6
CAME OUT AT 4,000 TIMES MORE LIKELY THAT IT WAS TOMAS
AND AN UNKNOWN INDIVIDUAL AS OPPOSED TO TWO UNKNOWN
l
7 INDIVIDUALS, WHICH IS GREATER THAN 99.9 PERCENT.
l
8 Q. DOCTOR, THIS IS A DIFFERENT FORMULA THAN THE
9 PROBABILITY TO EXCLUDE OR INCLUDE.
11 Q. NOW, THE PROBABILITY TO EXCLUDE AND THE l
12 PROBABILITY TO INCLUDE ARE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME FORMULA,
13 RIGHT?
1
1
15 Q. WHY IS THAT?
,
16
17
18
19
A. WELL, BECAUSE BASICALLY WHAT YOU DO IS YOU'RE
LOOKING AT PUTTING IN THE PROFILE OR -- I'M SORRY -- THE
PROFILE FROM THE EVIDENCE.
THE OTHER PERSON'S PROFILE.
YOU DON'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT
AND THE PROBABILITY TO
,
J
20 INCLUDE IS ONE OVER THE PROBABILITY TO EXCLUDE. SO IT'S

1
21
22
JUST THE INVERSE.
Q. YOU ALSO SWABBED AN AREA ON THE T-SHIRT THAT
1
23 APPEARED TO BE BLOOD, RIGHT?
l
25 Q. AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT? DID YOU COMPARE THAT l
26 TO SOMEBODY NAMED FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ?
27 A. YES, WE DID. l
28 Q. AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT?
1
l
r 2311
r
r 1
2
A.
Q.
HE WAS EXCLUDED.
AND DID YOU COMPARE THAT RESULT WITH SOMEBODY
r 3
4
NAMED DANIEL ZEPEDA?
A. YES, WE DID.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT?
HE WAS CONSISTENT AT ALL 16 LOCI, BECAUSE WE
[ 7 WERE ABLE TO GET A FULL PROFILE OFF OF THAT ONE.
8 Q. AND WERE YOU ABLE TO PUT A STAT ONTO HIS
r 9 INCLUSION?
r 10
11
A. YES, WE DID. BECAUSE IT LOOKED LIKE WE COULD
DISTINGUISH A MAJOR PROFILE OFF OF IT, WE COULD USE WHAT
r 12
13
WAS CALLED THE RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY, AND IT WAS
GREATER THAN 1 IN 100 BILLION PEOPLE OF THE CAUCASIAN,
r 14
15
AFRICAN-AMERICAN, HISPANIC POPULATION.
Q. THANK YOU. LET'S MOVE ON.
r 16 I ALSO HAD YOU REVIEW THE WORK OF SOMEBODY
r
17 NAMED SHAWN MONTPETIT, RIGHT?
18 A. YES.
r 19
20
Q.
THAT?
WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU REVIEW A CASE FILE LIKE
r 21
22
A. WELL, WE FIRST OF ALL GO THROUGH, LOOK AT THE
REPORTS, DETERMINE WHAT THEIR CONCLUSIONS ARE, LOOK AT
r 23
24
THEIR ELECTROPHEROGRAMS AND LOOK AT THEIR STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS AND BASICALLY COME BACK AND FIND OUT, FIRST OF
r 25 ALL, ARE THEY FOLLOWING PROPER PROTOCOLS? ARE THEY
26 USING PEAKS THAT ARE ABOVE CERTAIN THRESHOLDS THAT THEY

r 27 HAVE WITHIN THEIR STANDARDS THAT THEY'VE SET?
r 28 THEY HAVE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES. ARE
r
2312
l
l
1 THEY FOLLOWING THOSE PROCEDURES?
2 AND THEN WE LOOK AT THEIR CONCLUSIONS AND l
RENDER AN OPINION AS TO IF WE CONCUR WITH IF THE
3
4 SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE SUPPORTS THE CONCLUSION.
1
5
6
Q.
A.
AND WHAT MATERIALS DID YOU REVIEW?
WE REVIEWED THE ELECTROPHEROGRAMS THAT WERE
l
7
8
GENERATED BY THE LABORATORY, WE LOOKED AT THEIR STANDARD
OPERATING PROCEDURES, AND WE LOOKED AT THEIR REPORTS.
,
l
9
10
11
Q.
WERE?
A.
AND DO YOU KNOW WHO THE AUTHOR OF THESE REPORTS
I BELIEVE MR. MONTPETIT WAS ON ALL OF THEM.

, j
12 Q. BASED ON THAT, LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT WILL BE

l
13
14
15
SLIDE 4, WHICH IS OTHER THAN 16 -- THE COMPARISON TO
MR. DOMINGUEZ WITH 16-3, HERE ARE THE OTHER FOUR TESTS
ON WHAT WOULD BE ITEMS 16 AND 17 INSIDE OF THE GLOVE.
,
16 WHAT IS YOUR OPINION AS TO THESE OTHER FOUR 1
17 TESTS?
18 A. THESE ARE THE FIRST TWO THAT WERE DONE BEFORE 1
19 THE LAST ONE, CORRECT?
20 Q. CORRECT. WELL, ACTUALLY 17-3 IS ON THERE.
1
21
22
A. DO WE HAVE A COPY OF IT?
THE COURT:
ACTUALLY, I HAVE ONE.
IS THIS SLIDE 4 OF KKK?
1
23 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: YES, IT IS.
l
24 THE WITNESS: LITTLE EASIER FOR ME TO SEE.
27 Q. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION AS TO THE COMPLEXITY OF l
28 EACH OF THESE?
l
l
r 2313
r 1 A. WELL, IT'S CLEAR THAT WE HAVE A MINIMUM OF--
r 2 AND THE LABORATORY CAME UP WITH -- THREE OR MORE
r 3
4
INDIVIDUALS, AND THERE IS SOME SUGGESTION THERE'S AT
LEAST FOUR OR MORE INDIVIDUALS. AND THERE'S ALSO SOME
r 5
6
PEAKS THAT WERE BELOW EVEN THEIR THRESHOLDS THAT LOOKED
LIKE THEY WERE BELOW WHAT THEY COULD CALL, BUT IT WOULD
r 7
8
MAYBE SUGGEST THERE MIGHT BE OTHER PEAKS THERE AS WELL
AT THE TIME.
r 9 Q. NOW, OUT OF THESE FOUR TESTS, IN TWO OF THESE
r 10
11
TESTS MR. DOMINGUEZ WOULD BE EXCLUDED, CORRECT?
A. WELL, I BELIEVE IT WAS ACTUALLY INCONCLUSIVE,
r 12
13
IS WHAT THEY DEEMED IT AS.
Q. AND DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
r 14
15
A. INCONCLUSIVE IS A VALUABLE WAY OF LOOKING AT
THINGS AND SAYING, "LOOK, I JUST DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DATA
r 16
17
OR THE DATA IS TOO COMPLEX TO BE ABLE TO RENDER A
CONCLUSION."
r 18 IT'S NOT THAT HE'S INCLUDED OR EXCLUDED. IT'S
r 19
20
JUST THAT IT'S LIKE I HADN'T RUN IT, BECAUSE FOR
WHATEVER REASON, EITHER BECAUSE OF QUALITY OR BECAUSE OF
r 21
22
COMPLEXITY OR BECAUSE I SEE SOME OTHER THINGS THAT ARE
KIND OF SUPPORTING THIS, I CAN'T DRAW THE CONCLUSION.
r 23
24
SO IT'S TOTALLY INCONCLUSIVE.
Q. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE LATEST TESTS ON THE
r 25 GLOVES, WHICH IS 16-3 ON THE TOP AND 17-3 ON THE BOTTOM,
r 26
27
AND WE'RE ON PAGE NO. 5 OF EXHIBIT KKK.
LOOKING AT 16-3 FIRST, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS
r 28 THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF CONTRIBUTORS?
r
2314
l
l
1 A. THAT'S GOING TO BE FOUR OR MORE.
2 Q. WHY IS THAT? l
3 A. YOU HAVE SEVEN ALLELES IN D8 AND ALSO IN FGA,
4 SO YOU SOME HAVE MULTIPLE LOCI THAT HAVE SEVEN OR MORE

l
5
6
ALLELES IN IT.
Q. D8 IS THE ONE ALL THE WAY TO THE LEFT, RIGHT?

l
7 A. CORRECT.
l
8 Q. HOW ABOUT 17-3? WHAT'S THE MINIMUM AMOUNT
9 THERE? 1
10 A. I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT IT'S FOUR OR MORE. YOU
11 HAVE AT FGA YOU HAVE SEVEN THERE, WHICH WOULD SUGGEST l

12
13
THAT YOU HAVE SEVEN OR MORE -- I'M SORRY -- YOU HAVE
FOUR OR MORE CONTRIBUTORS.

l
14
15
Q. NOW, GOING TO THIS RIGHT AWAY, WE'VE HEARD
TESTIMONY FROM ANOTHER DNA EXPERT, ONE WHO YOU READ THE
l
16 REPORTS OF, THAT MR. DOMINGUEZ IS INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE l
17 CONTRIBUTOR TO 16-3 AND 17-3.
18 DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? 1

19 A. NO, I DON'T, BECAUSE I WOULD CONSIDER IT
20 INCONCLUSIVE.
l
21
22
Q.
A.
WHY?
THE REASON IS BECAUSE OF THE COMPLEXITY.

1
23 AGAIN, GOING BACK TO OUR ANALOGY OF LOOKING AT AN
1
24 ADDRESS, YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT IF I'D SAY, "WELL, IT'S
25 YOUR FIRST NUMBER, NUMBER 1," THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD l
26 BE INCLUDED IN THAT.
27 BUT IF I TELL YOU IT'S 1 OR 2 OR 4 OR 5 OR 6 OR l
28 8, YOU CAN SEE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE IN
l
l
r 2315
r 1 THERE. IT'S GOING TO EXCLUDE VERY, VERY FEW PEOPLE.
r 2 SO THE SCIENCE RIGHT NOW -- AND IF YOU LOOK AT
F 3 MOST OF THE LITERATURE IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY RIGHT

t 4 NOW, AS WELL AS GOING TO LECTURES BY JOHN BUTLER AND
r 5
6
SOME OF THESE OTHER INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE DEVELOPING MANY
OF THESE CONCEPTS FOR MIXTURES, THEY'RE SAYING THREE IS
c 7
8
THE MAXIMUM THAT WE REALLY CAN RESOLVE COMFORTABLY, AND
CERTAINLY IF THE STATISTICAL ANALYSES HAVE ANY MEANING.
r 9 SO WHAT THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING IS, IS WHEN
r 10
11
YOU GET INTO THAT KIND OF NUMBERS,
LADDER THERE.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE A
AND SO THE POINT WOULD BE IS THAT WE
r 12
13
CAN'T SAY HE'S EXCLUDED, NO, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THAT HE'S
INCLUDED EITHER, SO THAT COMES OUT TO INCONCLUSIVE AT

r 14 THAT POINT.
t
15 Q. IS THAT YOUR OPINION FOR BOTH 16-3 AND 17-3?
r 16 A. YES.
17 Q. NOW, YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THE MINIMUM
r 18 AMOUNT OF CONTRIBUTORS.
r 19
20
WHY DOES THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF CONTRIBUTORS
MAKE YOUR OPINION THIS WAY?
r 21
22
A. WELL, BECAUSE, AGAIN, AS I SAID, WHEN WE GET
INTO FOUR OR MORE, WE GET INTO SUCH COMPLEXITIES. TO BE
r 23
24
ABLE TO RESOLVE, WELL, DO YOU HAVE A 1 AND A 8, DO YOU
HAVE A 1 AND A 6, AND, GEE, HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU
r 25
26
OVERLAP WITH SOMEBODY ELSE THAT'S THERE, YOU CAN START
UNDERSTANDING THAT THAT'S A MINIMUM NUMBER.
r 27 BUT ALSO THERE IS TWO OTHER ASPECTS OF THIS.
r 28 FIRST OF ALL IS THAT SEVEN COULD BE SEVEN PEOPLE. THEY
r
2316
1
l
1 COULD ALL HAVE JUST ONE NUMBER. REMEMBER, I TOLD YOU
2 YOUR MOM AND DAD COULD GIVE YOU MORE THAN ONE? SO l
3 THAT'S A MINIMUM NUMBER.
4 SO YOU COULD DEFINITELY HAVE MORE THAN SEVEN, 1
5
6
MORE THAN FOUR PEOPLE THERE WITH THOSE SEVEN ALLELES;
AND BECAUSE YOU'RE DEVELOPING MORE AND MORE ALLELES EACH
1
7 OF THESE DIFFERENT ANALYSES THAT HAVE GONE ALONG, IT IS
l
8 SUGGESTING THAT THERE IS MORE CONTRIBUTORS THAN WE MAY
9 NOT BE ABLE TO RESOLVE AT THIS POINT. 1
10 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF MASKING?
11 A. YES. l
12 Q. WHAT IS MASKING?
13 A. MASKING IS -- LET'S SAY THAT I HAVE A 1 AND YOU
l
1
,
14 HAVE A 1, AND LET'S SAY MY DNA IS A LITTLE HIGHER, I
15 HAVE A LITTLE MORE DNA IN THE SOLUTION THAN YOU DO.
16
17
18
THEN MY 1 WOULD SHOW UP, BUT THEY COULDN'T SAY YOU
WEREN'T THERE. BUT YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE CONTRIBUTED A 1.
YOU MAY NOT BE IN THAT MIXTURE.
, }
19 SO THE POINT WOULD BE IS THAT MY DNA MASKS THE

1
20
21
22
POSSIBILITY AS TO YOURS BEING THERE OR NOT BEING THERE,
AND SO WE CALL IT AN OVERLAP OR MASKING AT THAT POINT.
Q. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN 16-3, YOU CAN SAY FOR SURE,
,
23 BASED ON THE ALLELES IN D8, WHICH IS THE LOCUS ALL THE
1
24 WAY TO THE LEFT, THAT THERE IS A MINIMUM OF FOUR. BUT
25 COULD YOU PLACE ANY LIKELIHOOD ON WHETHER THERE'S 1
26 ACTUALLY MORE PEOPLE IN THE SAMPLE?
27 A. IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DO AT THIS POINT l
28 BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT IS SO COMPLEX. I MEAN, IT'S MORE
l
l
r 2317
r 1 PROBABLE THAN NOT THAT THERE COULD BE MORE SIMPLY

r 2 BECAUSE OF THE MASKING THAT WOULD BE GOING ON AT
3 NUMEROUS SITES.
[ 4 Q. OKAY. AND IS THIS TRUE FOR 17-3 AS WELL?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
LET ME GET YOU AN EXHIBIT, DOCTOR. THIS IS A
r 7
8
12-PAGE DOCUMENT, EXHIBIT X, DEFENSE.
WHAT IS THAT?
[ 9 A. THESE ARE WHAT WE CALL THE ELECTROPHEROGRAMS,
10 OR E-GRAMS FOR SHORT. THESE ARE ACTUALLY THE PEAKS.
[ 11 THEY'RE SHOWING THE PEAKS AT EACH OF THE DIFFERENT LOCI
12 THAT WERE DONE BY THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT.
c 13 Q. THIS IS -- YOU'RE BASICALLY LOOKING AT THE
r 14
15
PHOTOGRAPH OF 16-3 AND 17-3
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
-- OVER A SERIES OF 12 PAGES.
CORRECT.
r 18 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING CALLED MIXTURE
INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
r 19
20 I'VE PLACED ON THE POWERPOINT BEHIND YOU WHAT
r 21
22
WOULD BE SLIDE NO. 6.
A. CORRECT.
r 23 Q. BEFORE WE GO ON, LET ME JUST ASK YOU ONE
r 24 QUESTION, DOCTOR: YOUR OPINION THAT THIS IS TOO COMPLEX

25 BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF ALLELES AND THE AMOUNT OF
r 26
27
MINIMUM CONTRIBUTORS, IS THAT BACKED UP BY ANY
SCIENTIFIC PEER-REVIEWED LITERATURE?
28 A. THE PEER-REVIEWED LITERATURE IS SUGGESTING
[
r
~
2318
,
J
1 THAT. IT HASN'T DIRECTLY SAID THE NUMBER OF
2 CONTRIBUTORS, BUT CERTAINLY THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE 1

GIVING THE TALKS AND WHO ARE WELL-VERSED AND WHO ARE
3
4 DEVELOPING THESE PEER-REVIEWED ARTICLES, SUCH AS JOHN

l
5
6
BUTLER AND BRUCE BUDOWLE, ARE CONTINUOUSLY SAYING THAT
IF YOU REACH THE TYPES OF COMPLEXITY THAT CAN BE

l
l
7
8
10
EXPERIENCED THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, THEY'RE
SUGGESTING THAT IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS INCONCLUSIVE.
BUDOWLE DOES SAY THAT. HE DOESN'T PUT A
DEFINITE NUMBER AS TO THE NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTORS, BUT HE

,
11 SAYS IT CAN REACH A POINT OF COMPLEXITY THAT SHOULD BE
12 CONSIDERED INCONCLUSIVE.
1
13
14
15
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
WHAT IS THAT NAME AGAIN,
BUDOWLE, B-U-D-0-W-L-E.
PLEASE?
,
16 Q. NOW WE'RE ON SLIDE 6, SOMETHING CALLED MIXTURE l
17 INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD.
18 WHAT IS THAT? 1
19 A. SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE -- AND THIS IS
20 ACTUALLY OUT OF BRUCE BUDOWLE'S PAPER, WHICH IS

l
21 PEER-REVIEWED AND IS ALSO, BY THE WAY, IN THE
1
22
23
24
INTERNATIONAL FORENSIC SOCIETY FOR GENETICS -- THEY COME
UP WITH THE SAME THING -- IT BASICALLY IS SHOWING YOU
WHAT -- KIND OF WHAT OUR PEAKS LOOK LIKE HERE, THESE OFF
,
25 THE ELECTROPHEROGRAMS.
26 AND THEY'RE SAYING, OKAY, $0 WE HAVE WHAT THEY
27 CALL A PAT, A PEAK AMPLITUDE THRESHOLD. THAT'S THE ONE l
28 THAT'S THE VALIDATED ONE, WHICH MEANS ANYTHING BELOW
l
1
r
r 2319
r
1 THAT, THE INSTRUMENT IN CHEMISTRY IS INVALID.
2 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A SECOND SO WE
r 3
4
UNDERSTAND.
THE PAT IS, I GUESS, THE DETECTION THRESHOLD,
r 5
6
RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHY DO YOU NEED A DETECTION THRESHOLD?
BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE
[ 9 ELECTROPHEROGRAMS, PARTICULARLY AT THE LOWER AMOUNTS,
10 WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IS A BASELINE. SO THERE WILL
r 11 BE A LOT OF BASELINE PEAKS, SPIKES, THINGS LIKE THAT
r 12
13
THAT ARE GOING ON.
AND SO YOU TYPICALLY SET THAT PEAK AMPLITUDE
r 14
15
THRESHOLD THREE TIMES OVER WHAT YOU'RE SEEING AS
NON-ALLELE PEAKS, AND THEN YOU DO THIS VALIDATION WITHIN
[ 16 THE LABORATORY.
17 EACH LABORATORY HAS TO DO IT THEMSELVES WHERE
r 18 THEY RUN LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF SAMPLES THROUGH DIFFERENT
19 TYPES OF MATRICES AND EVERYTHING ELSE, FROM BLOOD TO

r 20 BONE TO ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF, AND MAKE SURE
r 21
22
THAT WHEN WE DO THE CHEMISTRY, WE'RE GETTING RELIABLE
PEAKS ABOVE THAT THAT WE CAN RESOLVE AND THAT THEY'RE
r 23
24
REPRODUCIBLE AGAIN.
SO, AGAIN, WE SHOW REPRODUCIBILITY AS WELL. SO
r 25 THAT'S THAT LOWER THRESHOLD. SO ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE
r 26
27
CALLED BELOW THAT WOULD NOT BE VALIDATED AND THEREFORE
WOULD BE SUBJECT TO QUESTION AS TO SCIENTIFIC VALIDITY.
r 28 Q. SO, IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN YOU PUT THE NUMBERS UP
r
2320
1
l
1 ON THE CHART, YOU DON'T PUT THEM UP THERE UNLESS THEY
2 ARE ABOVE THE PAT. l

3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
HOW DOES MIT, MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
l
5
6
THRESHOLD -- HOW DOES THAT PLAY A ROLE IN THE
A. ALL RIGHT. THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION

l
7 THRESHOLD IS AN AREA WHERE -- USUALLY SOMEWHERE AROUND l
8 200 WHAT WE CALL RFU'S, WHICH IS RELATIVE FLUORESCENT
9 UNITS. JUST THINK OF IT AS THE SCALE RIGHT AROUND 200, 1

10 THE LOWER IS USUALLY RIGHT AROUND 50 -- SO BETWEEN 50
11 AND 200 IS VERY SUBJECT TO SOME ARTIFACTS, THINGS THAT l

12
13
OCCUR THAT MAKE THE ABILITY, EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN BE
REAL PEAKS, THERE ARE ALSO SOME FALSE PEAKS AND ALSO THE
1
1
,
14 LOSS OF PEAKS.
15 SO IF THE DNA IS A LOW AMOUNT OF DNA PRESENT,
16 WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS WE WILL HAVE DROPOUT WHERE WE WILL
17 HAVE A PEAK THAT WON'T BE AMPLIFIED, SO WE WON'T SEE IT
18 AT ALL. WE WILL ALSO OCCASIONALLY HAVE SOMETIMES WE l

19 CAN UNDERSTAND IT, SOMETIMES WE DON'T -- SOMETIMES WE'LL
20 HAVE LITTLE PEAKS THAT WILL GO IN THERE THAT ARE NOT

1
21 REAL, THAT ARE NOT REPRODUCIBLE OFTENTIMES, AND SO IT'S
1
22
23
24
ALL WHAT WE CALL -- THEY CALL IT A STOCHASTIC RANGE,
WHICH MEANS RANDOM RANGE.
IT'S A BIG FANCY TERM, AND THAT'S ALL IT MEANS

,
25 IS THAT THIS AREA IS SUBJECT TO A LOT OF ARTIFACTS. AND l
26 BASICALLY WHAT THE COMMUNITY IS SAYING IS THAT PEAKS IN
27 THAT AREA SHOULD BE USED FOR EXCLUSIONARY PURPOSES ONLY l
28 AND NOT USED FOR INCLUSIONS.
l
l
r 2321
[
r 1
3
Q. ON THIS EXHIBIT, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE
DEPICTING A SINGLE LOCUS, RIGHT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
r 4 Q. AND SO ALL THESE PEAKS WOULD BE AT ONE OF THOSE
r 5
6
LIKE SAY D8,
A.
FOR EXAMPLE.
CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q. AND IN THIS PARTICULAR ONE, IF THIS IS ALL THE
INFORMATION YOU HAVE, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR BEST GUESS AS
r 9 TO MINIMUM CONTRIBUTORS?
10 A. YOUR BEST GUESS WOULD BE PROBABLY TWO. YOU

r 11 NOTICE THE UNCOLORED ONES. THAT WOULD BE CALLED THE
r 12
13
MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR AND THE OTHER ONE WOULD BE A MINOR
CONTRIBUTOR. BASED UPON THE NUMBER OF ALLELES, YOU
r 14
15
WOULD SAY PROBABLY TWO CONTRIBUTORS.
BUT UNDERSTAND WE CAN HAVE MASKING AS WELL
[ 16 HERE, WHERE WE COULD HAVE A 17,19, A 16,19, A 14,17, A
17 14,16; A 14 COULD BE BY ITSELF; A 19 COULD BE BY ITSELF;
r 18 WE COULD HAVE FOUR CONTRIBUTORS AND WE CAN HAVE SOME
19 LOST. SO WE CAN ACTUALLY HAVE MORE THAN THAT.

r 20 Q. DR. MILLER, SEE HOW THE 14 IS BETWEEN THE PAT
r 21
22
AND THE MIT?
THRESHOLD.
IT'S UNDER THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
IN THIS PARTICULAR CHART, WHAT DOES THAT SAY
r 25 ABOUT THIS LOCUS?
26 A. IT SAYS THAT IT'S NOT A RELIABLE ALLELE. WE

[ 27 CALL THOSE ALLELES FOR THE DIFFERENT PEAKS OKAY? --
r 28 FOR THIS PARTICULAR LOCUS. AND THE REASON IS BECAUSE IT
r
,
1 FALLS IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE. SO IT MIGHT MATCH UP
2322
,
2 WITH 19, BUT THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT DROPPED OUT l
3 AS WELL. AND WE'RE NOT SEEING A PEAK; IT MIGHT BE BY
4 ITSELF. SO IT'S JUST WITHIN THIS RANGE.
l
5
6
AND IF YOU DID IT MULTIPLE TIMES, IT MAY BE
REPRODUCIBLE, IT MAY NOT, BUT YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO
l
7 REALLY RESOLVE EXACTLY WHERE IT IS. l
8 SO THE PAPER IN QUESTION, WHICH IS BRUCE
9 BUDOWLE'S PAPER, BASICALLY SUGGESTS THAT YOU CAN USE 1
10 THIS INFORMATION TO EXCLUDE SOMEONE -- IN OTHER WORDS,
11 YOU DON'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF HIS ALLELES BEING THERE, 1
12 THAT'S FINE -- BUT NOT TO USE THIS TO SAY THAT IT IS HIS
1
13 DNA, BECAUSE IT'S NOT RELIABLE.
,
,
14 Q. WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE LIKELIHOOD
15 THAT THERE WAS ALLELIC DROPOUT AT THIS PARTICULAR LOCUS?
16 A. CERTAINLY WHEN YOU START REACHING THESE LOWER
17 LEVELS --AND YOU CAN THINK OF IT VERY EASILY. THOSE
1
18
19
20
LARGE PEAKS, WE TYPICALLY LIKE TO HAVE SOMEWHERE IN THE
THOUSANDS.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW ON THIS LOWER ONE --
,
21 THIS IS OFF THE SCALE, BECAUSE, IN ACTUALITY, IF YOU HAD
l
22
23
24
THIS AT 2000, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SEE THOSE PEAKS.
YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T EVEN SEE A BLIP. YOU WOULD JUST
SEE A NUMBER THAT'S BEING GENERATED BY THE COMPUTER,
,
25 BECAUSE IN POINT OF FACT, THOSE PEAKS ARE GOING TO BE 1
26 BETWEEN 50 AND 200 RFU'S AS OPPOSED TO 2000.
27 SO THE SCALE IS 2000. SO GOOD PEAKS ARE GOING l
28 TO BE SOMEWHERE OVER 200 AND PREFERABLY IN THE
l
,
[
2323
[
r
1 THOUSANDS. AND THAT MEANS YOU HAVE A LOT OF DNA THERE
2 THAT'S NOT DEGRADED.
3 IF YOU'RE IN THIS LOWER PART, THEN YOU HAVE A

r 4 MUCH HIGHER PROBABILITY THAT YOU HAVE DEGRADED DNA AND
[ 5 YOU HAVE DROPOUT AND YOU MAY HAVE SPURIOUS TYPE ALLELES
6 THAT ARE ALSO POPPING UP.
r 7
8
Q. SO COULD THERE BE MORE ALLELES IN THIS LOCUS
THAT WERE NOT SEEN, BASED ON THIS CHART?
r 9 A. THAT'S PART OF THE ARGUMENT THAT'S MADE BY
10 BUDOWLE'S GROUP, IS THAT WHEN YOU GET INTO THESE

r 11 REGIONS, BECAUSE OF THE VARIABILITY THERE AND THE LOW
12 AMOUNT OF DNA THAT'S THERE, THE PROBABILITY OF HAVING

r 13 PEAKS DROP OUT OR OTHER TYPES OF ARTIFACTS IS MUCH
r 14
15
HIGHER.
Q. AND WHEN DOING AN INTERPRETATION AS TO COMPARE
t 16 TO A REFERENCE SAMPLE OR A PERSON TO SEE IF THEY'RE A
r
17 CONTRIBUTOR TO THE MIXTURE, HOW DOES BUDOWLE SUGGEST
18 THAT YOU DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
ON THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS?
CORRECT.
c 21
22
A. ON THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS HE STATES QUITE
CLEARLY THAT IF YOU HAVE -- IF YOU'RE TRYING -- LET'S
r 23
24
SAY THAT THE INDIVIDUAL MATCHES AT 14,19.
EXCLUDE HIM BECAUSE HE MATCHES AT 14,19.

YOU CAN'T
THAT IS A
r 25
26
POSSIBILITY.
BUT BECAUSE ONE OF THOSE PEAKS IS IN THIS

r 27 VARIABLE RANGE, THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, EVEN THOUGH IT'S
r 28 ONLY ONE OUT OF THE TWO, YOU SHOULD NOT INCLUDE IT IN
r
2324
1
l
1 THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
2 SO YOU WOULD BASICALLY ASSIGN IT A NUMBER OF 1, l
3 OR NOT INCLUDE IT IN THE ACTUAL ANALYSIS ITSELF, WHICH,
4 IN EFFECT, DOESN'T AFFECT IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. AND l
5
6
BY DOING SO, THEN YOU'RE BEING MORE CONSERVATIVE ON NOT
SAYING HE'S NOT THERE, BUT NOT USING THAT AS AN
l
7
8
INCLUSIONARY STATEMENT.
THE COURT: IS THIS A CONVENIENT TIME FOR THE
l
9
10
11
RECESS?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
YES.
PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS
,
1
J
12 ON THE CHAIRS. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY NOT

13 TO CONVERSE AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON ON
1
14
15
l
1
,
17 LET US PLAN ON RECONVENING, PLEASE, AT 11:00.
19 THE COURT: THANK YOU. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT
20 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. DR. MILLER IS 1
,
l
21 PRESENT.
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR
23 EXAMINATION.
J
26 Q. WE LEFT OFF ON SLIDE NO. 6 HERE, MIXTURE
27 INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD. I THINK THE LAST QUESTION I l
28 ASKED YOU WAS -- AND YOU WERE EXPLAINING WHY THERE COULD
l
1
[
2325
c 1 BE MORE ALLELES AT THIS PARTICULAR LOCUS, RIGHT? DO YOU
L 2 REMEMBER THAT?
3 A. CORRECT.
r 4 Q. AND THAT WAS THE REASON WHY IT CAN'T BE USED IN
r 5
6
THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, ACCORDING TO BUDOWLE.
A. CORRECT.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
YES, I DO.
r 9 Q. WHY?
10 A. WELL, BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE VARIABILITY
r 11 THAT WE SEE THERE. WHEN WE DO ANALYSIS, WE SEE PEAKS
r 12
13
THAT APPEAR, DISAPPEAR, AND THERE IS A QUESTION AS TO
REPRODUCIBILITY. AND ALSO, AS STATED, WHEN YOU LOOK AT
c 14
15
A COMPLEX MIXTURE, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH NOT KNOWING
IF THERE'S MASKING AND WHO THE CONTRIBUTOR IS. THERE
r 16 COULD BE MULTIPLE CONTRIBUTORS AT MULTIPLE SITES.

17 AND SO THE ASPECT OF MIXTURE INTERPRETATION IS
r 18 ONE OF THE CHALLENGING THINGS, IF NOT THE MOST
r 19
20
CHALLENGING THING, FACING DNA ANALYSTS.
Q. HOW DOES THIS CONCEPT OF NOT COUNTING THE LOCI
[ 21 WHERE SOME OF THE ALLELES ARE BELOW PAT -- EXCUSE ME

22 BELOW MIT WHERE THE PERSON BEING COMPARED MATCHES UP
r 23
24
HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE FAIRNESS OF IT?
HAVE TO DO WITH BEING FAIR?
HOW DOES IT
L 25 A. WELL, BECAUSE IT BASICALLY NEUTRALIZES THAT.
r 26
27
IT SAYS WE REALLY CAN'T UTILIZE THIS. AND BY NOT ADDING
IT TO THE STATISTICAL FUNCTION, IT'S ESSENTIALLY PUTTING
r 28 A 1 ON THERE.
r
2326
1
l
1 SO THE WAY THAT STATISTICS WORKS IS THAT WE USE
2 PRODUCT RULES, WHERE YOU GO THROUGH AND MULTIPLY 1
3
4
EVERYTHING TOGETHER. SO IF I SAY IT'S 2 TIMES 2 TIMES 2
TIMES 2, WELL, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, 2 TIMES 2 IS 4,
l
5
6
TIMES 2 IS 8, TIMES 2 IS 16.
AND IF I DON'T PUT THE LAST ONE IN AND I SAY IT
l
7 FALLS UNDER THIS, IT WOULD NOW BE 8 INSTEAD OF 16, WHICH
1
8 STILL SAYS I'M NOT GOING TO ELIMINATE ALL THE STATISTICS
9 NECESSARILY, BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHERE WE'RE l
10 LOOKING STRICTLY AT A SITUATION SUCH AS THIS, WE ASSIGN
11 A 1 BASICALLY TO IT. l
12
13
AND SO AT THAT POINT WE'RE SAYING THIS IS NOT
OF SUFFICIENT QUALITY TO BE ABLE TO USE IT IN THE
1
14
15
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
Q. DR. MILLER, BASED ON YOUR REVIEW OF ALL THE
l
16 REPORTS AND ANALYSIS OF THE SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT 1
17 CRIME LAB IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, HOW DID THEY DEAL
18 WITH LOCI WHERE A PERSON MATCHES UP WITH ALLELES THAT l
19 ARE IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE?
20 A. WELL, IN THE CASE WHERE BOTH OF THE ALLELES
1
21
22
WERE IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, THEY DID NOT PUT THAT INTO
THE STATISTIC. SO THEY DID NOT PUT THAT ONE IN.
l
23
24
HOWEVER, WHEN THERE WAS ONE SUCH AS WHAT WE'RE
DEPICTING HERE, WHERE THERE'S A 19,14 OR SOMETHING LIKE
1
25 THAT, THEY PUT THAT STATISTIC INTO THEIR CALCULATION. l
26 Q. WAS THAT IN ACCORDANCE WITH BUDOWLE?
27 A. NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. l
28 Q. HOW DID IT CONFLICT WITH BUDOWLE?
l
l
[
2327
r 1 A. BUDOWLE, AS I'VE STATED, WOULD NOT UTILIZE THAT

[ 2 LOCUS FOR THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, AND THUS IT WOULD
r 3
4
BASICALLY REDUCE IT BY THAT PROPORTION TO THE NEUTRALITY
OF 1.
r 5
6
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, THE WAY THAT THE SAN DIEGO
POLICE DEPARTMENT CRIME LAB DEALS WITH THIS ISSUE -- IS
r 7
8
THEIR FORMULA, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, SUPPORTED BY
ANY PEER-REVIEWED LITERATURE, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
r 9 A. NO. I COULD NOT -- WHEN I LOOKED AT THAT, WE
r
10 DID NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE ACTUAL ALGORITHMS, SO WE HAD
11 TO DERIVE IT BACKWARDS. AND IT LOOKED LIKE WHAT THEY
12 WERE DOING WAS TAKING THE SQUARE OF ALL OF THE ALLELE
i 13 FREQUENCIES AND SUBTRACTING OUT THE ONES THAT WERE IN
[ 14 THE SQUARES OF THE SUMS OF THE ONES IN THE STOCHASTIC

15 RANGE.
r 16
17
AND THAT DOES NOT CORRESPOND TO A PROBABILITY
OF EXCLUSION OR INCLUSION, EITHER ONE, AND SO IT WAS NOT
r 18 AN ACCEPTED METHOD THAT I COULD AT LEAST ASCERTAIN.
r 19
20
Q. HAVE YOU SEEN ANYBODY OR ANY OTHER LAB USE THAT
METHOD IN THE PAST?
21 A. NO.
L 22 Q. WITH REGARD TO MR. DOMINGUEZ AND 16-3 -- GO
r 23
24
BACK TO SLIDE 5, AND IF YOU NEED TO REFRESH YOUR
RECOLLECTION, PLEASE DO DO YOU KNOW WHICH LOCI
l 25 MR. DOMINGUEZ WAS MATCHING UP THAT WERE IN THE
r
26 STOCHASTIC RANGE BELOW THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
27 THRESHOLD?
r 28 A. YES. THIS IS AT 16-3, THE FGA, THE LAST ONE
r
2328
l
1 WAY OVER TO YOUR FAR RIGHT, BOTH OF THEM WERE IN THE
2 STOCHASTIC RANGE, AND SAN DIEGO DID NOT INCLUDE THAT IN 1

3 THEIR ANALYSIS.
4 HOWEVER, THERE WERE TWO OTHERS, D2, WHICH IS l

5
6
ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH THERE, HE HAS ONE ALLELE, 25,
WHICH IS IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, AND D18 HE ALSO HAS A
l
7
8
25, WHICH IS ABOUT FOUR OVER, RIGHT BESIDE THE XY, WHICH
IS ALSO IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE.

1
9 AND SO IF YOU FOLLOWED BUDOWLE'S SUGGESTION, l
10 THEY WOULD NOT HAVE INCLUDED THOSE TWO LOCI IN THERE.
l
11
12
13
Q. HOW WOULD THAT HAVE AFFECTED THE STATISTIC THAT
WAS GIVEN ON THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION?
A. IT WOULD HAVE REDUCED IT SIGNIFICANTLY.

, 1
14
15
Q. AND FOR 17-3 NOW, SAME QUESTION AS BEFORE, BUT
NOW FOR 17-3.

l
16 A. FOR 17-3, THEY AGAIN ELIMINATED FGA. I BELIEVE 1
17 THEY ALSO ELIMINATED D7, BECAUSE BOTH OF THEM WERE IN
18 THE STOCHASTIC RANGE FOR BOTH OF THOSE. l

19 AND THEN FOR THE ONES THAT HAD ONE PEAK IN AND
20 ONE PEAK IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE -- ONE PEAK IN THE

l 4
21
22
STOCHASTIC RANGE, ONE PEAK OUTSIDE -- WHICH THEY
INCLUDED IN THE STATISTICS, INCLUDED D21, WHICH IS THE

l
23
24
SECOND ONE OVER FROM YOUR LEFT; D2, WHICH IS, AGAIN,
ABOUT IN THE MIDDLE; VWA, WHICH IS TWO OVER THIS WAY;
1
25 TPOX, WHICH IS RIGHT BESIDE VWA, AND D18. ALL OF THOSE 1
26 HAVE ONE ALLELE IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE.
27 Q. WHAT WOULD THAT HAVE DONE IN THE PROBABILITY OF l
28 INCLUSION FORMULA?
l
l
[
2329
r 1 A. IT WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY REDUCED IT
c 2 SIGNIFICANTLY.
3 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT NOW NOT SPECIFICALLY MIXTURE

r 4 INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, BUT MORE GENERALLY.
c 5
6
CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, DOCTOR, BUT MIXTURE
INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD IS TRYING TO PROTECT AGAINST
r 7
8
THE IDEA THAT THE SAMPLE THAT YOU'VE ACHIEVED THROUGH
PCR DIDN'T GET THE FULL PICTURE OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY IN
r 9 THE SAMPLE; IS THAT ACCURATE?
10 A. I WOULD SAY THAT'S FAIR.

r 11 Q. AND WHY IS THAT FAIR?
A. WELL, BECAUSE YOU'RE BASICALLY LOOKING AT
r 12
13 LOW-LEVEL DNA, AND SO THE QUESTION IS: ARE THERE OTHER
r 14
15
PEAKS THERE AND ARE YOU THEREFORE INCORRECTLY ASSIGNING
A PEAK TO A PERSON THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE THERE BECAUSE
[ 16 OF THE COMPLEXITY AND SO FORTH? THERE MAY BE THINGS
r 17
18
THAT HAVE DROPPED OUT OR IT MAY BE SOMETHING THAT'S NOT
REPRODUCIBLE.
r 19
20
Q. AND WHEN WE LOOK AT THE PAST TESTS OF BOTH
GLOVES AND WE SEE THEM MATCHED UP TOGETHER, WE SEE ALL
r 21
22
THE TESTS DONE ON THE INNER RIGHT GLOVES AND ALL THE
TESTS DONE ON THE INNER LEFT GLOVES, BASED ON -- WELL,
r 23
24
EXPLAIN FIRST THE TOP ONE.
WHAT DO YOU SEE? IS IT GETTING MORE COMPLEX AS
r
-
25 IT GOES DOWN?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT'S THE EXPLANATION FOR THAT?
r 28 A. WELL, THEY'RE DOING A SECOND EXTRACTION, AND
r
1
2330
l
1 THEY ARE COMING UP WITH MORE DNA TO BE ABLE TO TEST.
2 THEY ALSO MAY BE -- AS I STATED EARLIER, BECAUSE YOU'RE l
3 LOOKING AT DIFFERENT REGIONS OF THE PARTICULAR SAMPLE,
4 THEY MAY BE PICKING UP AN ADDITIONAL CONTRIBUTOR THAT
1
5
6
WAS NOT VIEWED IN THE FIRST ONE, BECAUSE THERE ARE
DIFFERENCES WITHIN ANY GIVEN ITEM AS TO WHAT DNA OF A
l
7 CONTRIBUTOR MAY OR MAY NOT BE THERE. l
8 Q. AND WHEN WE SEE HOW EACH GLOVE GETS MORE
9 COMPLEX AS IT KEEPS GETTING TESTED, COULD THIS POSSIBLY l
10 HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MIXTURE INTERPRETATION
11 THRESHOLD? l
12
13
A.
Q.
OH, ABSOLUTELY.
WHY?
l
14
15
A. BECAUSE, AGAIN, WE'RE SHOWING THE POSSIBILITY
OF ADDITIONAL PEAKS WHICH MAY NOT HAVE BEEN RESOLVED ON
l
16 THE FIRST ONE OR MAY BE DUE TO AN AREA AGAIN AS I 1
17 STATED, SO THE COMPLEXITY GETS MORE AND MORE COMPLEX.
18 AND ALSO IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE WERE PEAKS THAT WERE l
19 FAILED TO BE RESOLVED IN THE FIRST ONE. SO, AGAIN, WE
20 DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW MANY CONTRIBUTORS ARE ACTUALLY
l
~
21 THERE THEN.
J
22 Q. IF WE'RE NOT SEEING THE WHOLE PICTURE AND
23 HYPOTHETICALLY THERE WERE MORE PEAKS THAT WE'RE NOT l
24 SEEING IN EITHER 16-3 OR 17-3, IF THOSE WERE PRODUCED,
25 HOW WOULD THAT AFFECT THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION AS l
26 WELL?
27 A. OH, THE MORE PEAKS YOU HAVE IN THE LOCUS, THE l
28 LOWER THE PROBABILITY GOES FOR IT, BECAUSE, AGAIN, THINK
l
l
r 2331
r 1 ABOUT THAT ADDRESS. IF I'M THINKING OF IT BEING A 1,
r 2 HOW MANY PEOPLE MATCH? WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD
r 3
4
ELIMINATE A LOT OF PEOPLE.
BUT IF I SAY A 1 AND A 2 AND A 3 AND A 4, A LOT
r 5
6
MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO MATCH WITH THAT. SO,
THEREFORE, THE PROBABILITY IS GOING TO BECOME LOWER AND
r 7
8
LOWER THAT IT'S GOING TO BE HIS AS OPPOSED TO A RANDOM
INDIVIDUAL.
r 9
10 4.
Q. NOW, IN 16-3 AND 17-3 -- WE'LL GO BACK TO SLIDE
YOU HAVE THE ELECTROPHEROGRAMS IN FRONT OF YOU.
r 11 GENERALLY SPEAKING, THROUGHOUT ALL OF 16-3,
r[ 12 WE'LL START WITH, HOW MANY ALLELES ARE IN THE STOCHASTIC
13 RANGE FROM THAT WHOLE SAMPLE?
r 14
15
A. FOR 16-3, I ACTUALLY COUNTED THEM UP.
UP WITH 28 OUT OF 77 ALLELES, WHICH IS 36 PERCENT.

I CAME
r 16 Q. AND WHAT DOES THAT INDICATE AS FAR AS DROPOUT?

17 A. WELL, THAT SUGGESTS VERY STRONGLY THAT WE HAVE
~ 18 A LOT OF LOW-LEVEL DNA FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT
r 19
20
CONTRIBUTORS THAT ARE COMING INTO PLAY HERE.
PROBABILITY OF DROPOUT OR DROP-IN OR ANY OF THE OTHER

AND SO THE
r 21
22
ARTIFACTS IS MUCH HIGHER.
Q. WHAT ABOUT IN 17-3? HOW MANY WERE IN THE
r 23 STOCHASTIC RANGE FOR THAT ONE?
r
24 A. AGAIN, I COUNTED THOSE, AND THERE WAS 23 OUT OF
25 70, WHICH IS 33 PERCENT. SO IT'S, IN SOME WAYS, VERY
r 26
27
SIMILAR.
Q. SO ONE-THIRD OF ALL THE ALLELES ARE IN THE
r 28 STOCHASTIC RANGE?
r
2332
l
l
2 Q. AND DOES THAT INDICATE THE SAME THING AS IT l

3 DOES FOR 16-3?
4 A. THAT IT DOES.
l
5
6
Q. SO, ESSENTIALLY, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG,
DOCTOR, YOU'RE SAYING AS COMPLEX AS THESE GLOVES ARE,

l
7 THE PROFILE EVIDENCE IS SHOWING THAT THEY COULD ACTUALLY
l
8 BE MORE COMPLEX.
9 A. YES, THEY COULD. l

10 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT AGAIN THE FORMULA THAT SDPD
11 USED TO CALCULATE THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION FOR BOTH l

12
13
16-3 AND 17-3, STARTING WITH -- I GUESS THEY USED THE
SAME FORMULA FOR BOTH, RIGHT?

1
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WHAT STRUCK YOU ABOUT THE FORMULA THEY USED?

1
16 A. WELL, IT WASN'T FOLLOWING THE STANDARD FORMULA 1
17 WHICH HAS BEEN UTILIZED THROUGHOUT FORENSIC SCIENCES FOR
l
18
19
20
AT LEAST THE LAST 15, 20 YEARS.
Q.
A.
WHAT IS THE STANDARD PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION?
WELL, IT'S A COMPLEX FORMULA. I MEAN, I CAN

,
21
22
HOLLER IT OUT. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO HELP YOU
MUCH, BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHAT IT IS.

l
23
24 YOU?
Q. IT'S LIKE SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF
l
25 A. I DO. I DON'T GO OFF OF IT. 1
26 PROBABILITY OF EXCLUSION IS 2PQ PLUS Q SQUARED
27 WHERE Q IS -- l
28 THE COURT: SLOWLY, PLEASE.
l
,
2333
1 THE WITNESS: THE PROBABILITY OF EXCLUSION IS

2 EQUAL TO TWO TIMES P TIMES Q PLUS Q SQUARED, AND Q IS
3 EQUAL TO ONE MINUS P.
4 AND SO BASICALLY YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE EACH OF
i 5 THE PROBABILITIES AND MULTIPLY IT TIMES TWO, AND THEN
6 YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE THE SQUARE OF THEM AND ADD THAT TO
7 IT AS WELL, AND THAT BECOMES THE PROBABILITY. IT'S A
8 STANDARD METHOD THAT'S USED. WE DO IT ON PAPER. IT'S

r 9 RATHER COMPLEX FORMULAS THAT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH
10 TO GET ALL OF THOSE NUMBERS.
r 12
13
Q. THEY PROVIDED YOU WITH A PROBABILITY OF
INCLUSION CALCULATOR, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES, THEY DO.
DID THEY USE THE CONVENTIONAL FORMULA?
r 16 A. NO.
r
17 Q. WHAT FORMULA DID THEY USE?
18 A. IT LOOKED TO ME LIKE, FROM OUR DERIVATIONS
r 19
20
AND WE DID A COUPLE OF THEM THAT THEY WERE USING
YOU ADDED ALL OF THE ALLELE FREQUENCIES TOGETHER, AS
r 21
22
OPPOSED TO TWO TIMES THE ALLELE FREQUENCIES AND ONE
MINUS THE ALLELE FREQUENCIES.
r 23
24
YOU TOOK ALL THE ALLELE FREQUENCIES, ADDED THEM
TOGETHER, SQUARED THAT, AND THEN YOU SUBTRACTED THE SUM
r 25 OF THE ONES OF THE SQUARE OF THE ONES THAT WERE IN THE
r 26
27
STOCHASTIC RANGE.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS FORMULA USED BEFORE?
r 28 A. I HAVE NOT.
r
2334
1 Q. DID YOU FIND IT IN ANY OF THE PEER-REVIEWED

2 LITERATURE AND DNA ANALYSIS?
3 A. NO, I DID NOT.
4 Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR FORMULA'S
5 RESULT AND THEIR FORMULA'S RESULT?
6 A. QUITE DRAMATIC, ACTUALLY. IF YOU LOOK AT THE
7 ACTUAL STATISTICAL ANALYSIS -- WELL, LET ME BACK UP.
8 I DID TWO ADDITIONAL STATISTICAL ANALYSES.
9 FIRST OF ALL, I TOOK OUT THE ALLELES THAT WERE WHEN WE
10 HAD PEAKS IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, ONE WAS IN THE RANGE,
11 ONE WAS OUT, FOLLOWING BUDOWLE'S SUGGESTION. SO I DID
12 THAT USING THEIR CALCULATOR. AND THEN I CAME BACK AND l I
)
13 USED A STANDARD PROBABILITY OF EXCLUSION, AND WE CAME
14
15
OUT WITH A NUMBER --
(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT LLL, STATISTICAL
l
'j
16 COMPARISON TABLE, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) )
18 Q. I'M GOING TO APPROACH NOW, YOUR HONOR, WITH l
19 DEFENSE LLL.
20 SHOWING YOU DEFENSE LLL -- AND JUST FOR
21 CLARIFICATION, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PAGE 8 ON THE
22 SLIDE -- THIS IS PART OF A REPORT YOU PRODUCED, RIGHT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, DEFENSE LLL, IS
l
25 SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR BUT NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT'S l
26 ON THE TV, RIGHT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. FORGIVE ME. I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO PUT THAT IN
l
l
r 2335
r 1 THE POWERPOINT, SO LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT'S THE SAME.

r 2 WHAT'S LISTED IN THE LEFT COLUMN?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THOSE ARE ALL THE SAME.
THOSE ARE THE SAME?
r 5
6
A. AND THAT'S THE ONE THAT WAS ACTUALLY REPORTED
WITHIN THE REPORT BY SAN DIEGO POLICE DEPARTMENT.
r 7
8
Q. THIS WAS THE CALCULATIONS DONE BY
MR. MONTPETIT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
AND STARTING, I GUESS, HERE, THE TOP ONE WOULD

r 11 BE INDICATING INFORMATION ABOUT 16-3 AND THE BOTTOM ONE
12 WOULD BE 17-3.
r 13 THE MIDDLE COLUMN ON 16-3, IS THAT THE SAME?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
THOSE ARE ALL CORRECT.
YOU DID THOSE CALCULATIONS, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A. YES, I DID.
Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
r 18 BETWEEN THESE CALCULATIONS AND THE SDPD -- NOT THE
r 19
20
NUMBERS, BUT WHAT DID YOU DO DIFFERENT?
OKAY. WHAT I DID WAS -- ON THAT PARTICULAR
r 21
22
ONE, THEY SUPPLIED US WITH THEIR CALCULATOR, SO YOU JUST
PUT IN THE ALLELES. AND THAT IS TAKING OUT THE TWO
r 23
24
OTHER LOCI THAT WERE NOT INCLUDED -- THAT HAD PEAKS
WHERE ONE PEAK WAS IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE AND ONE WAS
r 25
26
OUTSIDE THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, FOLLOWING THE SUGGESTION
OF BUDOWLE.
r 27 SO WE REDUCED THEIR CALCULATION BY TWO
r 28 ADDITIONAL PEAKS, OR TWO ADDITIONAL LOCI, AND IT REDUCES
r
~
i
,
I
2336
I
i
1 THE PROBABILITY FROM, AS YOU CAN SEE, 1 IN 1700 FOR
2 CAUCASIANS DOWN TO 1 IN 48; 1 IN 100,000 FOR l

3 AFRICAN-AMERICANS TO 1 IN 278; AND 1 IN 450 IN HISPANICS
l
4
6
DOWN TO 1 IN 20.
Q. I DON'T THINK THE JURY CAN SEE THIS.
SO FOR CAUCASIAN, MONTPETIT SAID THE NUMBER WAS
,
7 WHAT?
8 A. 1 IN 1700.
9 Q. AND WHEN YOU FOLLOWED WHAT BUDOWLE SAYS, WHAT l
10 DOES IT BECOME?
11 A. 1 IN 4 8. l
12 Q. AND FOR THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION, SHAWN
13 MONTPETIT'S CALCULATION WAS WHAT?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
1 IN 100,000.
AND FOR AFRICAN-AMERICAN, WHEN YOU FOLLOW WHAT
l
16 BUDOWLE SAYS, IT'S WHAT? l
17 A. 1 IN 278.
18 Q. FOR HISPANIC, HIS CALCULATION WAS 1 IN 450, BUT l

19 WHEN YOU FOLLOW BUDOWLE IT'S WHAT?
20 A. 1 IN 20. l
21 Q. AND THEN MOVING ON, YOU SAID HE DIDN'T -- WE'RE
22 TALKING ABOUT HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY USE THE CONVENTIONAL
l
23
24
PROBABILITY TO INCLUDE, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
l
25 Q. SO FOR CAUCASIANS, WHEN YOU USE THE l
26 CONVENTIONAL PROBABILITY TO INCLUDE, IS THIS ALSO TAKING
27 INTO ACCOUNT BUDOWLE? l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
l
r 2337
r 1 Q. WHAT IS THE STAT FOR THAT?

r 2 A. THE FINAL STAT IS 1 IN 6.
3 Q. AND FOR AFRICAN-AMERICAN, WHAT'S THE STAT FOR
4 THAT?
5 A. 1 IN 28.
r 6 Q. AND FOR HISPANIC, WHAT IS THE STAT FOR THAT?
r 7 A. 1 IN 4.
8 Q. OKAY. DOCTOR, YOU HAVE REVIEWED YOUR WORK A
r 9 FEW TIMES, RIGHT?

r 11 Q. YOU SENT ME AN ADDENDUM OVER THE WEEKEND.
r 13 Q. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT ADDENDUM?
r
[
14 A. THE POINT OF THAT ADDENDUM WAS THAT I ACTUALLY
15 HAD AN ERROR IN TRANSCRIBING FROM 16 TO 17, SO I HAD A
r 16
17
COUPLE OF SITES THAT I HAD TAKEN THE WRONG SET OF
ALLELES. AND IT ACTUALLY MAKES MORE SENSE NOW.
r 18 AND SO THE ONLY COLUMN IT ACTUALLY AFFECTS IS
r 19
20
THE ONE THAT I PUT INTO THEIR CALCULATOR.
ELSE WAS FINE FOR 17-3.
EVERYTHING
21 Q. FOR 17-3, THE MIDDLE COLUMN, THERE WAS A

r 22 PROBLEM WITH TRANSCRIPTION?
r 23
24
A. YEAH, BECAUSE THEY WERE SITTING TOGETHER AND I
WAS PULLING THEM OFF AS I WENT THROUGH.
r 25
26
Q.
THERE.
SO BASICALLY YOU PASTED THE WRONG NUMBERS IN
r 27 A. CORRECT.
28 Q. AND THEN YOU CAUGHT IT OVER THE WEEKEND.
r
r
2338
""' !
1 A. CORRECT.
"'1 I
I
2 Q. SO LET'S GO WITH MONTPETIT'S CALCULATIONS, 1 IN
3 210 FOR CAUCASIAN. THE POWERPOINT PAGE -- I THINK THIS
4 IS PAGE 8 -- PAGE 8 SAYS 1 IN 4 WITH USING BUDOWLE.
f.ll'9
5 WHAT'S THE ACTUAL? I
!
)
6 A. 1 IN 32.
7 JUROR NO. 11: CAN I ASK WHAT SAMPLE WE'RE

8 TALKING ABOUT?
~
9 THE COURT: MS. JUROR IN SEAT 11, YOUR I
I
10 QUESTION?
11 JUROR NO. 11: THERE ARE LOTS OF TESTS, AND I l
12 DON'T KNOW WHICH PROBABILITIES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT,
l
13
14
15
WHICH ARTICLE OF CLOTHING OR WHAT.
WHAT IS THE ITEM NUMBER, PLEASE?
, J
17
18
Q. 16-3 AND 17-3, TO YOUR RECOLLECTION, IS THE
INSIDE OF THE GLOVES, THE LAST TEST ON IT.
, J
19 A. CORRECT. THIS IS THE RIGHT AND LEFT GLOVE
20 INSIDE, THE LAST TEST THAT THEY RAN. l
21
22
THE COURT:
JUROR NO. 11:
THANK YOU.
I'M SORRY. ONE MORE QUESTION:
l
23
24
WHAT IS THE TITLE OF THE LAST COLUMN?
THE WITNESS: IT'S THE CONVENTIONAL PROBABILITY
l
25 TO INCLUDE. l
26 THE COURT: AND AS LONG AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
27 THESE THINGS, AND AT THE RISK OF BEING PEDANTIC, I NEVER l
28 GOT THIS EXHIBIT DESCRIBED FOR THE COURT REPORTER.
l
l
r 2339
r 1 WHAT IS A SHORTHAND LABEL FOR EXHIBIT LLL,
r 2
3
PLEASE? WHAT IS THAT DOCUMENT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, SIR?
THE WITNESS: IT'S THIS.
4 THE COURT: IT'S A STATISTICAL COMPARISON
r 5
6
TABLE. COUNSEL NEED TO GIVE THE CLERK A SHORTHAND LABEL
SO THE EXHIBITS ARE MEMORIALIZED. THANK YOU.
r 7
8 HONOR.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR
r
l
10 Q. DOCTOR, THE POWERPOINT -- SO LET'S START WITH

r 11 CAUCASIAN FOR 17-3, THE PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION FOR
12 MR. DOMINGUEZ TO THE INSIDE OF THE LEFT GLOVE, THE

r 13 PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION AMONG THE CAUCASIAN POPULATION
r 14
15
WAS 1 IN 210 GIVEN BY MR. MONTPETIT, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
r 16
17
Q. AND WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT BUDOWLE,
POWERPOINT SAYS 1 IN 4, BUT WHAT'S --
r 18 A. IT'S 1 IN 323.
r 19
20
Q. NOW, GOING TO THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION,
MR. MONTPETIT SAID IT WAS 1 IN 300 -- EXCUSE ME -- 1 IN
r 21
22
1300, BUT WHAT IS IT ACTUALLY WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT
BUDOWLE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
1 IN 99.
FOR THE HISPANIC POPULATION, MR. MONTPETIT SAID
r 25 1 IN 65 FOR 17-3.
r 26
27 BUDOWLE?
WHAT IS IT ACTUALLY WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT
28 A. 1 IN 15.
r
r
~
I
2340
1 Q. AND THEN WHEN YOU USE THE CONVENTIONAL

~
2 PROBABILITY, WHAT IS THE STATISTICAL PROBABILITY FOR THE !
;
3 CAUCASIAN POPULATION WITH REGARD TO 17-3 IN
4 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
5 A. IT'S 1 IN 11.
6 Q. AND FOR THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION?
7 A. 1 IN 27.
8 Q. FOR THE HISPANIC POPULATION?
9 A. 1 IN 6.
10 Q. DOCTOR, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE
11 A LOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT MR. MONTPETIT WAS REPORTING?
12 A. YES, I WOULD.
13 Q. WHAT IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THAT?

l
14 A. WELL, I THINK THAT THE METHODOLOGY WHICH WAS
l
15
16
EMPLOYED UTILIZES METHODS THAT WERE QUITE DIFFERENT AND
RESULTED IN STATISTICAL ANALYSES THAT WERE QUITE

, l
J
17 DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE DONE.
18 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT JJJ, QUALITY ASSURANCE l

19 STANDARDS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: APPROACHING WITH DEFENSE l

21 JJJ.
22 MR. TROCHA: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. IT'S A PAGE

l
23
24
FROM A JOURNAL ARTICLE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. I'LL RULE ON THE

l
25 OBJECTION ONCE I KNOW THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH THIS IS l
26 BEING OFFERED.
28 Ill
l
l
r 2341
r 2
3
Q.
A.
SHOWING YOU DEFENSE JJJ, WHAT IS THIS?
THIS IS THE QUALITY ASSURANCE STANDARDS THAT
r
I
4 ARE PUT FORTH BY WHAT'S CALLED THE DNA ADVISORY BOARD.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT DO THEY DO?
THEY ARE AN EXTERNAL SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE THAT
[ 7 PUTS FORTH THE STANDARDS WHICH THE FBI THEN ISSUES AS

8 QUALITY ASSURANCE STANDARDS, AND THAT'S THE ONES THAT
r 9
10
ARE USED FOR ACCREDITATION FOR BOTH THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
DEPARTMENT AND OUR LABORATORY BY OUR RESPECTIVE
r 11 ACCREDITING BODIES.
r 12
13
Q. AND THE HIGHLIGHTED PORTION, IS THAT ONE OF THE
STANDARDS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES, IT IS.
WHAT DOES THAT STANDARD SAY?
r 16
17
A. 8.2.2 STATES, "PEER-REVIEWED PUBLICATION OF THE
UNDERLYING SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE(S) OF A TECHNOLOGY SHALL
r 18 BE REQUIRED."
r 19
20
Q.
A.
THAT MEANS THAT ANY OF THE METHODS THAT ARE
r 21
22
UTILIZED IN DNA ANALYSIS, FROM CHEMISTRY TO STATISTICAL
ANALYSES, HAVE TO BE ACCEPTED BY THE SCIENTIFIC
r 23
24
COMMUNITY, AND IT HAS TO BE SHOWN TO BE BY A
PEER-REVIEWED PUBLICATION.
r 25
26
Q. AND TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS THE WAY
THAT MR. MONTPETIT DID BOTH THE PROBABILITY EITHER
r 27 THE PROBABILITY TO INCLUDE, OR THE WAY HE DEALS WITH
r 28 MIXTURE INTERPRETATION THRESHOLD, IS THAT IN ACCORDANCE
r
2342
~I
,
i
;
1 WITH THE POLICY THERE?

i
2 A. ON HIS MAJOR PROFILES, IT IS DONE IN j
3 ACCORDANCE; BUT WITH HIS MIXTURES, NO, IT IS NOT.

I
4 Q. 16-3 AND 17-3 ARE BOTH MIXTURES, CORRECT? !
5 A. THAT'S CORRECT. ~
6
7 9
Q. TURNING TO SLIDE 9 -- I BELIEVE THAT'S SLIDE
THERE'S ANOTHER SORT OF ASPECT TO THIS.

, J
l
8 IF YOU KNOW, WHAT DO THE BLUE NUMBERS
~;
9 REPRESENT, DOCTOR?
10 A. THOSE ARE REPRESENTING THE OVERLAP.
11 Q. OVERLAP BETWEEN WHO? l

12 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ AND MOISES LOPEZ.
13 Q. OKAY. WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT MOISES LOPEZ

l
14
15
IS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO 16-3, FOR EXAMPLE.
WHAT IS THE OVERLAP? HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE

l
16 INTERPRETATION?
l
17 A. WELL, AGAIN, IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE
18 YOU SEE A NUMBER WHERE THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR HAS PUT l
19 IN -- YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY HAS THAT NUMBER, AND THE OTHER
20 INDIVIDUAL THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO MATCH UP ALSO HAS THE l

21 SAME NUMBER. HE MAY HAVE A SECOND ONE AS WELL, BUT IN
22 ANY CASE YOU HAVE TO EITHER ASSUME THAT IT'S BEING

l
23
24
MASKED, THAT YOU CAN'T SEE IT BECAUSE THE MAJOR
CONTRIBUTOR HAS IT, OR IT MAY NOT BE THERE, IN WHICH

l
25 CASE YOU COULD COME UP WITH AN ERRONEOUS TYPE OF l
26 CONCLUSION.
27 Q. SO IS THIS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN YOU DO A l
28 STATISTICAL ANALYSIS?
l
l
r
!
2343
r 1 A. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE OVERALL. IT BECOMES A
r 2 SUBJECTIVE AREA AS TO HOW OFTEN A PERSON MATCHES AND SO
r 3
4
FORTH, AND, AGAIN, HOW COMPLEX IT IS AS TO IF YOU WILL
CONCLUDE AS TO IF IT'S AN INCLUSION OR INCONCLUSIVE.
r 5
6
IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE OF THE SHEER NUMBER OF
CONTRIBUTORS, IT SHOULD BE DEEMED AS INCONCLUSIVE.
r 7
8
Q. OKAY.
COMPARISON.
LET'S GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE. THIS IS A
THE TOP LINE WOULD BE 16-3, WHICH IS THE
r 9
10
LATEST SWABBING AND PCR OF THE INNER RIGHT GLOVE, AND
THE BOTTOM IS A PIECE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOUND AT THE

r 11 SCENE, FS13A, THAT A SINGLE SOURCE PROFILE WAS FOUND ON.
12 WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF MATCHING THAT HAPPENED

r 13 BETWEEN FS13 AND THE RIGHT GLOVE? FOR EXAMPLE, CAN
r 14
15
WHOEVER IT IS ON FS13 BE EXCLUDED?
A. NO, THEY CANNOT BE EXCLUDED.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WOULD IT ALSO BE INCONCLUSIVE AS WELL?
WELL, AGAIN, I WOULD CALL IT INCONCLUSIVE
r 18 SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THERE'S SO MANY
r 19
20
CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS, YES.
Q. WHOEVER IS ON THERE AT FS13 IS CONSISTENT AT
r 21
22
ALL BUT WHICH ALLELES -- WHICH LOCUS AND ALLELE?
A. D18 HE'S MISSING, AND FGA HE'S MISSING ONE
r 23
24
ALLELE.
Q. AND THAT ON THE POWERPOINT HAS BEEN INDICATED
r 25 WITH A RED FONT INSTEAD OF BLACK.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
EARLIER, DR. MILLER, WE HEARD A HYPOTHETICAL OF
SOMEBODY NAMED VM, AND HIS PROFILE IS DOWN AT THE BOTTOM

28
r
r
~
I
2344
1 THERE: 13, 29, 8,10, 11,12 --DO YOU SEE THAT PROFILE ,
2
3
DOWN AT THE BOTTOM?
A. YES, I DO. ,
J
,
\
4 Q. THIS PERSON IS ALSO SOMEWHAT CONSISTENT WITH
5 THE GLOVES, RIGHT? I
,
J
6 A. YES, HE IS.
7 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHOSE PROFILE THIS IS? j
8 A. I BELIEVE IT'S MINE.

~
I
9 Q. THAT'S YOUR PROFILE? J
11 Q. YOU'RE CONSISTENT WITH 17-3 ON ALL BUT TWO l
12 ALLELES?
l
14
15
Q.
16-3?
HOW ABOUT WHEN WE COMPARE YOUR PROFILE WITH
l
16 A. ALL BUT ONE ALLELE. l
17 Q. AND THAT IS WHICH ONE?
18 A. D18, ALLELE 16 IS NOT PRESENT IN THE MIXTURE. l
19 Q. ALSO WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY FROM MR. MONTPETIT
20 AS TO YOUR PROBABILITY OF INCLUSION AS HE CALCULATED IT l
21 FOR YOU, AND FOR YOU HE SAID YOU WERE 1 IN 1900 AMONG
22 CAUCASIANS, 1 IN 39,000 AMONG AFRICAN-AMERICANS, AND 1
l
23
24
IN 410 AMONG HISPANICS.
A.
DID YOU HEAR THAT FROM HIM?
I HAVEN'T HEARD THAT FROM HIM.
l
25 Q. YOU JUST KNOW BECAUSE I TOLD YOU NOW? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. THOSE NUMBERS ARE VERY SIMILAR TO 16-3. THEY l
28 ARE VERY SIMILAR TO MR. DOMINGUEZ, ARE THEY NOT?
l
l
r 2345
r 1 A. I WOULD CONSIDER THEM VERY SIMILAR.
r 2 Q. WHAT'S THE EXPLANATION OF THAT?
r 3
4
A. WELL, BECAUSE OF THE COMPLEXITY OF THE MIXTURE,
IT'S VERY HARD TO DISTINGUISH WHO'S THERE AND WHO'S NOT
r 5
6
THERE.
Q. WHEN YOU TOUCHED THE GLOVES, WHEN YOU HANDLED
r 7
8
THE GLOVES,
OF THEM?
DO YOU THINK YOU GOT ANY SKIN ON THE INSIDE
r 9
10
A.
Q.
I NEVER TOUCHED THE GLOVES.
YOU DIDN'T TOUCH THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE,
r 11 DR. MILLER?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
NO, I HAVE NOT. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE GLOVES.
SO YOUR DNA IS NOT IN THE HAND OF THE GLOVE?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
YOU WEREN'T IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT, WERE YOU,
r 16
17
DOCTOR?
A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. MY WIFE WOULD PROBABLY BE
r 18 A LITTLE UPSET IF I WERE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHERE DO YOU LIVE AGAIN?
I LIVE IN PHOENIX, ARIZONA.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T LIVE IN SAN DIEGO?
NO, I DON'T.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU DON'T LIVE IN SHELLTOWN?
NO, I DID NOT.
r 25 Q. YOU DIDN'T BEAT UP MOISES LOPEZ THAT NIGHT, DID
r 26
27
YOU?
A. NO, I DID NOT.
r 28 Q. BUT YET YOUR NUMBERS ARE SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR.
r
~
I
2346
1 YOU DON'T HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS? mq

I
i
2 A. NO, I DON'T, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT THERE IS
3 SO MUCH COMPLEXITY THAT IT BASICALLY AT THAT POINT
4 INCLUDES A LOT OF PEOPLE.
5 Q. FAIR ENOUGH.
6 SO, FINALLY, LET ME END ON THIS DOCTOR: WHAT
7 WE SEE HERE IS NOW A LIST THAT WE HEARD FROM

l
8 MR. MONTPETIT OF PEOPLE WHO CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM THE
~
9 RIGHT GLOVE. I
10 AFTER REVIEWING THE REPORTS, I ADDED A COUPLE
11 OF NAMES TO HIS LIST, DIDN'T I? l

A. YES, YOU DID.
12
13 Q. WHOSE DID I ADD?

l
14
15
A.
Q.
MINE AND FS13A.
AND THAT'S BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THAT PERSON'S

l
16 NAME, RIGHT? l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. SO NOW THERE APPEARS TO BE 14 SUBJECTS WHO l

19 CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM THE GLOVE.
21
22
Q. AND THE ONES THAT HE COULD EXCLUDE, WOULD THIS
BE A LIST OF THOSE?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
I BELIEVE THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
SO THERE ARE ONLY SIX PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY WERE

l
25 EXCLUDED, ACCORDING TO MR. MONTPETIT. l
26 A. CORRECT.
27 Q. SO OUT OF THE 20 PEOPLE WE KNOW OF WHO HAVE l

28 BEEN COMPARED TO THE GLOVE, 70 PERCENT OF THEM CANNOT BE
l
l
r 2347
r 1 EXCLUDED.
3 Q. AND ONE OF THEM IS YOU.

r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
THANK YOU.
r 7
8
CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 9 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 10
11
Q. DOCTOR, THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME YOU
TESTIFIED IN THIS CASE, IS IT?
12 A. NO, IT IS NOT.
r 13 Q. LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, YOU CAME UP WITH AN
r 14
15
OPINION AS TO WHO OWNS THOSE GLOVES, RIGHT?
A. I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT TESTIMONY.
r 16 Q. YOU DON'T RECALL TESTIFYING THAT, IN YOUR
r
17 OPINION, MOISES LOPEZ IS THE MAJOR OR PREDOMINANT WEARER
18 OF THOSE GLOVES?
r 19
20
A. I SAID HIS IS THE PREDOMINANT CONTRIBUTOR,
WHICH WAS ALSO ESTABLISHED BY THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
r 21
22
DEPARTMENT.
Q. OH, AND THAT WASN'T IT, THOUGH, WAS IT,
r 23
24
DR. MILLER? YOU ACTUALLY WENT INTO A WHOLE THEORY ABOUT
HOW BLOOD CANNOT SOAK THROUGH LEATHER. DO YOU RECALL
r 25 THAT?
r
26 A. YES, I DO.
27 Q. CARE TO CHANGE THAT THEORY TODAY?
r 28 A. NO, I DON'T.
r
2348
1
2
Q. EVEN AFTER SENDING US A JOURNAL ARTICLE WHICH
SHOWS THAT WHITE BLOOD CELLS CAN, IN FACT, GO THROUGH
, I
3 PORES AND SYNTHETIC AND NATURAL LEATHER?

4
6
A.
Q.
BUT HOW FAR WILL THEY PENETRATE IS THE
QUESTION, AND WILL THEY GO INTO THE INSIDE?
SO DID YOU DO TESTING ON THESE GLOVES TO
, J
8
CORROBORATE YOUR THEORY THAT BLOOD CAN'T GET THROUGH
THEM?
l
9 A. NO, I DID NOT TEST THESE GLOVES.
10 Q. YET YOU RELIED ON THIS THEORY LAST TIME TO TELL
11 US THAT, IN YOUR OPINION, BECAUSE BLOOD CAN'T MAKE IT l
12 THROUGH LEATHER, MOISES LOPEZ WAS THE PREDOMINANT WEARER
13 OF THE GLOVES, CORRECT?
l
14
15
A. . MY STATEMENT WAS THAT DEPENDING UPON THE
THICKNESS OF THE GLOVE MATERIAL ITSELF, IT'S JUST LIKE
l
16 DOING GEL ELECTROPHORESIS, WHEN THOSE CELLS HIT IT, l
17 THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH CERTAIN PORES AND
18 THEY'RE GOING TO STOP. l
19 AND AT THAT POINT, YES, YOU WILL HAVE STAINING
20 GO THROUGH, BUT WILL YOU HAVE THE CELLS GO THROUGH? AND l
21 DEFINITELY YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF THEM PRECLUDED.
22 IF IT'S GOING TO BE 100 PERCENT, I DON'T KNOW.
l
23
24
Q. THE QUESTION ACTUALLY WAS FROM OCTOBER 20,
2010, PAGE 3504, STARTING ON LINE 23:
1
25 "NOW, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE YOU HAVE REVIEWED, l
26 THE PROFILES YOU LOOKED AT, EVERYTHING OF THAT NATURE,
27 WHAT IS YOUR OPINION AS TO MOISES LOPEZ'S RELATIONSHIP, l
28 THE VICTIM, TO THE GLOVES?"
l
l
r 2349
r 1 YOUR ANSWER, "WELL, I'D SAY THAT HE'S PROBABLY
r 2 THE PREDOMINANT WEARER OF THE GLOVES SIMPLY BECAUSE IF
r 3
4
HE WAS AWARE OF IT AND USED THEM MOST OF THE TIME, HIS
DNA COULD PERMEATE THROUGH THE GLOVE. SO HE'S THE
r 5
6
PREDOMINANT PROFILE THERE, SO IT SUGGESTS HIS DNA IS THE
ONE THAT IS MOST PROMINENT THERE. IT CERTAINLY IS MOST
r 7
8
PROMINENT THERE.
WEARING IT AT THE TIME.

THE QUESTION THEN WOULD BE IF HE WAS
I HAVE NO IDEA. I WOULDN'T BE
r 9 ABLE TO VENTURE A GUESS ON THAT."
r 10
11
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION,
OVERRULED.
IT'S NOT --
r 12
13
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. THAT WAS YOUR ANSWER LAST TIME, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SO DO YOU BELIEVE MOISES LOPEZ IS THE
r 16
17
PREDOMINANT WEARER OF THE GLOVES OR NOT?
A. I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY A POSSIBILITY.
r 18 Q. IS IT OR NOT?
r 19
20 ANSWERED.
r 21
22
THE COURT:
DEFINITE POSSIBILITY?
OVERRULED. YOUR ANSWER IS IT'S A
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
IT'S A DEFINITE POSSIBILITY.
r 25
26
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE AMONGST THIS MIXTURE OF FOUR
r 27 PEOPLE, YOU JUST MADE A CONCLUSION, CORRECT?
r 28 A. ON THE MAJOR PROFILE, YES.
r
2350
, j
l
1
2
Q. SO YOU ARE ABLE TO INTERPRET MIXTURES OF FOUR
OR MORE PEOPLE.
, J
J
3 A. IF YOU HAVE A MAJOR SINGLE PROFILE, YES, YOU

4 CAN ON THE MAJOR PROFILE. BUT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AN l
IRRESOLVABLE MINOR PROFILE WITH AT LEAST THREE OTHER
5
6 INDIVIDUALS.
l
7
8 DID.
Q. DOCTOR, YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT SOME TEACHING YOU
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
l
9 A. YES. l
10 Q. YOU FAILED TO MENTION ONE CLASS THAT YOU DO
11 TEACH, THOUGH, CORRECT? l
12 A. REFRESH MY MEMORY.
13 Q. HOW ABOUT FORENSIC DNA DEFENSE STRATEGIES? DO
l
14
15
YOU STILL TEACH THAT CLASS?
A. YES, I DO.
l
16 Q. YOU HAVE A WEBSITE, CORRECT?
l
17 A. WE DID HAVE ONE.
18 Q. YOU STILL DO HAVE A CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES l
19 DOT COM WEBSITE, CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. l
21 Q. YOU ARE THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THIS COMPANY,
22 CORRECT?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I AM.
LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, WE SHOWED A COPY OF
l
25 THAT WEBSITE, AND IT ADVERTISED THAT EXACT CLASS ON THE l
26 WEBSITE, CORRECT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. WITHIN A MONTH OF YOUR TESTIMONY, THOUGH, THAT
l
l
r 2351
r 1 CLASS DISAPPEARED FROM THE WEBSITE, RIGHT?
r 2 A. YES, WE REMOVED IT.
r
3 Q. YET YOU STILL OFFER IT.
4 A. WE DO.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHY DID YOU TAKE IT OFF THE WEBSITE?
BECAUSE WE WEREN'T GETTING ANY HITS ON IT.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
IS IT BECAUSE IT LOOKS BAD?
NO. IT WAS BECAUSE WE WEREN'T GETTING ANY HITS
r 9 ON IT.
r 10
11
12
Q.
SAYS,
THIS WEBSITE ALSO FOR THIS PARTICULAR CLASS
"WHO SHOULD ATTEND?"
IS "DEFENSE ATTORNEYS," CORRECT?

AND THE ANSWER YOU PROVIDE
[ 13 A. CORRECT.
r 14
15
Q. YOU ALSO HAD ANOTHER FEATURE LAST TIME YOU
TESTIFIED WHERE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS COULD REGISTER WITH
r 16
17
CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 18 Q. THAT WAS TAKEN OFF THE SAME TIME THIS CLASS
r 19
20
WAS, RIGHT?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T DO THE -- I'LL TAKE YOUR
r 21
22
WORD FOR IT.
Q. WELL, YOU'RE THE VICE-PRESIDENT. I WOULD
r 23
24
ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT GOES ON AT YOUR COMPANY, CORRECT?
A. I DON'T MAINTAIN THE WEBSITE. I HAVE OTHER
r 25
26
DUTIES.
Q. YOUR NAME IS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS WEBSITE,
r 27 CORRECT?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
2352
l
l
1 Q. YOUR NAME IS ACTUALLY ADVERTISED AS ONE OF THE
2 INSTRUCTORS ON THE WEBSITE, CORRECT? 1

3 A. CORRECT.
1
4
5
6
Q.
A.
AND THIS ONE FEATURE WAS DEFENSE ATTORNEYS CAN
REGISTER WITH CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
, J
8
Q. AND THEN PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO GO TO CHROMOSOMAL
LABS FOR WORK COULD NOT ONLY GET THEIR DNA ANALYZED BUT
l
9
10
11
FIND A DEFENSE ATTORNEY THAT WOULD REPRESENT THEM IN
THEIR CASE.
A. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER THE FUNCTION OF THAT, IF

,
l
12 IT WAS DESIGNED THAT WAY, BUT PERHAPS.
13 Q. THAT'S NOT THERE ANYMORE EITHER, CORRECT?

1
14
15
A.
Q.
AGAIN, WE WERE NOT HAVING ANY HITS ON IT.
CAN THEY STILL REGISTER WITH CHROMOSOMAL

1
16
17
LABORATORIES?
l
A. OF COURSE YOU CAN.
18 Q. BUT THOSE TWO THINGS HAVE BEEN TAKEN OFF, l

19 CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. l
21 Q. THIS BINDER IN MY HAND IS ACTUALLY A COPY OF
22 FORENSIC DNA DEFENSE ATTORNEYS USE, CORRECT?

1
23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU DIDN'T SEND THIS TO ME THOUGH WHEN I ASKED,

1
25 RIGHT? l
26 A. I SENT THAT TO MR. SPEREDELOZZI AS PART OF THE
27 DISCOVERY PROCESS. l
28 Q. EVEN THOUGH I WROTE YOU A LETTER GIVING YOU MY
l
l
r 2353
r 1 ADDRESS, GIVING YOU MY E-MAIL, YOU SENT THIS TO THE
r 2 DEFENSE ATTORNEY.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SEND IT TO ME?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A TRIAL.
NO, THIS WAS ACTUALLY A COUPLE MONTHS BEFORE
r 7
8
TRIAL, MR. MILLER. WHY DIDN'T YOU SEND THIS TO ME?
r 9 CIRCUMSTANCES.
r
10 THE COURT: WELL, WHEN WAS IT?
11 MR. TROCHA: IT WAS IN FEBRUARY WHEN I --
r 12
13
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
r 14
15
Q.
IT TO ME?
WHEN I ASKED FOR THIS IN FEBRUARY, DID YOU SEND
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
WHO DID YOU SEND IT TO?
r 18 A. I SENT IT TO MR. SPEREDELOZZI.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHY DIDN'T YOU SEND IT TO ME?
BECAUSE WE WERE INVOLVED IN A TRIAL.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
IS THERE SOMETHING IN HERE I SHOULDN'T SEE?
NO.
r 23
24
Q. THEN WHY WEREN'T YOU COMFORTABLE SENDING IT
STRAIGHT TO ME?
r 25 A. BECAUSE WE WERE INVOLVED IN A TRIAL.
r
26 Q. MR. SPEREDELOZZI'S INVOLVED IN THE SAME TRIAL,
27 CORRECT?
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
2354
l
1
1 Q. SO IT'S OKAY TO SEND IT TO HIM BUT NOT TO THE
2 D.A.? l
3 A. I WAS WORKING FOR HIM, NOT YOU.
4 Q. IN HERE YOU HAVE SOME FUNCTIONS OF THE DEFENSE l
5
6
EXPERT, CORRECT?
A. YES.
l
7 Q. ON PAGE 34, "ANALYZE AND INTERPRET THE
PROSECUTION'S LABORATORY REPORT AND DATA," YES?
l
8
9 A. LET ME GET MY COPY. l

10 THE COURT: PAGE 34 IS THE PAGE.
11 MR. TROCHA: IT IS. 1
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
14
15
Q. THERE ARE 10 DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS YOU LIST AS
YOUR FUNCTION AS A DEFENSE EXPERT, CORRECT?
l
16 A. CORRECT. l
17 Q. ONE OF THOSE FUNCTIONS IS "EVALUATE THE NEED
18 FOR OR CONDUCT INDEPENDENT TESTS ON BIOLOGICAL l
19 MATERIAL," CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. l
21
22
Q. ANOTHER FUNCTION YOU LIST IS, "HELP DEFENSE
COUNSEL INFORM THE CLIENT OF THE WEIGHT AND SIGNIFICANCE
l
23
24
OF THE GOVERNMENT EVIDENCE PRIOR TO TRIAL," CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
25 Q. ANOTHER FUNCTION IS, "PRESENT EXCULPATORY DNA l
26 EVIDENCE AT TRIAL."
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. IS THAT A GUARANTEE, DOCTOR?
l
1
r 2355
r 1 A. NO.
r 2 Q. WHY NOT ADVERTISE, THEN, "PRESENT OBJECTIVE DNA
r 3
4
EVIDENCE AT TRIAL"?
A. IT'S KEYED IN TO THE DEFENSE. I MEAN, IT'S
r 5
6
SAYING IF THERE'S EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE THAT WE'RE GOING
TO HELP FIND THAT INFORMATION.
r
l
7 Q. WHAT DOES EXCULPATORY MEAN?
8 A. IT MEANS SOMETHING THAT'S FOR THE DEFENSE.
r 9
10
IT'S GOING TO BE FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE DEFENDANT.
Q. IS THERE A SCIENTIFIC EQUIVALENT TO THAT?

r 11 A. IS THERE A SCIENTIFIC EQUIVALENT TO THAT?
r 12
13
Q. CORRECT. IF THIS SOMETHING IF YOU'RE ANALYZING
A SAMPLE, YOU CAN SAY "THIS IS EXCULPATORY"?
r 14
15
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: VAGUE.

OBJECTION.
REPHRASE.
RELEVANCE.
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SURE. YOU'RE LOOKING AT A SAMPLE, A MIXTURE OF
r 18 DNA OF TWO PEOPLE. YOU'RE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THOSE TWO
r 19
20
PEOPLE.
A.
DO YOU BRAND YOUR CONCLUSIONS AS EXCULPATORY?
NO.
r 21
22
Q. SO THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC VALIDITY TO SOMETHING
BEING EXCULPATORY.
r 23
24
A. IT'S A STATEMENT THAT SAYS THERE CAN BE THINGS
THAT WERE NOT TESTED THAT CAN BE EXCULPATORY. IT'S NOT
r 25 STATING THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE EXCULPATORY.
r 26
27
Q. SO COULDN'T YOU JUST SAY "RETEST EVIDENCE TO
CONFIRM RESULTS"?
r 28 A. WELL, YOU MAY NOT BE TESTING EVIDENCE.
r
2356
l
l
1 Q. WELL, YOU'RE PRESENTING EXCULPATORY DNA
2 EVIDENCE. WHY NOT JUST "OBJECTIVE DNA EVIDENCE"? l

3 A. THAT'S FINE. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.
4 Q. ANOTHER FUNCTION IS, "PREPARE DEFENSE COUNSEL l

5 FOR CHALLENGING OR PRESENTING THE DNA EVIDENCE," RIGHT?
l
6
7
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
PART OF THIS IS HELPING CRAFT

,
8
9
CROSS-EXAMINATION; IS IT NOT?
A. IT'S CERTAINLY HELPING FIND AREAS THAT MAY HAVE

,
J
!
10 PROBLEMS WITH THE DNA TESTING.
11 Q. YOU ACTUALLY ASSIST DEFENSE ATTORNEYS IN l

12 WRITING QUESTIONS FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
13 A. IF I'M ASKED TO.

l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU ACTUALLY DID THAT IN THIS CASE.
I DON'T BELIEVE I HELPED CRAFT ANY QUESTIONS IN

l
16 THIS CASE.
l
17 Q. YOU DIDN'T DO IT IN A MURDER CASE?
18 A. I DON'T BELIEVE I WAS ASKED TO CRAFT ANY l

19 QUESTIONS.
20 Q. "I ALSO FIND JOURNAL ARTICLES THAT ARE POOR l

21
22
CROSS-EXAMINATION AS WELL."
A. CERTAINLY.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
YOU DID THAT IN THIS CASE.
YES, I DID.
l
25 Q. ARE YOU ASSISTING IN MAKING POWERPOINT l
26 PRESENTATIONS AS WELL?
27 A. I DID NOT IN THIS CASE. l
28 Q. YOU HAVE IN THE PAST.
l
l
r 2357
r 1 A. I HAVE PRESENTED MY OWN INFORMATION, YES.
r 2 Q. AND YOU HAVE ASSISTED DEFENSE ATTORNEYS IN
r 3
4
MAKING THEIR OWN POWERPOINTS TO PRESENT DNA EVIDENCE.
A. NO. I HAVE DONE MY OWN, AND IN THIS CASE
r 5
6
MR. SPEREDELOZZI DID HIS.
Q. PART OF IT IS WRITING REPORTS, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE EARLIER REPORT IN THIS CASE
r 9
10
WHERE YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE MAY ALSO BE BIAS IN THE
CONCLUSION?
r 11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. THAT WAS THE AUGUST 19TH REPORT OF 2010,

r 13 CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOUR STATEMENT WAS, IN REFERENCE TO THE GLOVES
r 16
17
AND THE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION,
BIAS IN THE CONCLUSION.

"THEREIN MAY ALSO BE
THE FACT THAT THE DNA PROFILES
r 18 FROM BOTH ITEMS WERE KNOWN, THE INTERPRETATIONS OF THE
r 19
20
MIXTURE COULD HAVE BEEN BIASED. WHILE THERE IS NO
INDICATION OF THIS OCCURRING, THIS MAY BE A GOOD LINE OF
r 21
22
QUESTIONING DURING TRIAL."
YOU WROTE THAT, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU'RE ACTUALLY BLATANTLY TELLING THE DEFENSE
r 25
26
ATTORNEY WHERE TO CROSS-EXAMINE.
A. CERTAINLY. THAT'S PART OF MY JOB.

r 27 Q. YOU FIND THAT AS BEING PART OF A SCIENTIST IN
r 28 MAKING CONCLUSIONS ON WHO IS IN OR OUT OF A MIXTURE?
r
2358
l
l
1 A. I'M SORRY?
2 Q. YOU FIND THAT SCIENTIFIC? l

3 A. I 'M SORRY. I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR
4 QUESTION. l
5
6
Q.
A.
YOU'RE HERE TESTIFYING AS A SCIENTIST, CORRECT?
CORRECT.
1
7
8
Q. HOW IS IT OFFERING CROSS-EXAMINATION RELATES IN
ANY WAY TO DETERMINING WHO IS IN A MIXTURE?

l
9 A. BECAUSE IF THEY'RE NOT USING VALID METHODS, 1
10 THEN THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY CERTAINLY DOESN'T KNOW THE
11 DNA. HE DOESN'T HAVE THE EXPERTISE. l

12 Q. SO YOU'RE GOING TO HELP HIM.
1
13
14
15
A.
Q.
I HELP PROSECUTORS TOO.
YOU'RE GOING TO HELP DEFENSE ATTORNEYS, AS
ADVERTISED IN YOUR MANUAL, CORRECT?

,
16 A. I HELP PROSECUTORS TOO, SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND
l
17 THE QUESTION.
l
18
19
20
Q. YOU'RE ACTUALLY ADMITTING, WHILE THERE IS NO
EVIDENCE, THERE IS BIAS IN THE CONCLUSION, YOU SHOULD
ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT BIAS IN THAT STATEMENT, CORRECT?

,
21
22
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WE WENT OVER THAT LAST TIME, CORRECT?

l
23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THIS REPORT WAS ACTUALLY WRITTEN -- YOUR

l
25 REPORT TWO MONTHS BEFORE YOU EVEN TESTIFIED TO THAT, l
26 CORRECT?
27 A. CORRECT. l
28 Q. AND THEN IT TOOK YOU, WHAT, ANOTHER MONTH TO
l
,
r 2359
r 1 CORRECT IT IN YOUR RECENT REPORT?
r 2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q. SO EIGHT MONTHS DOWN THE ROAD AND YOU FINALLY
SAY, "I SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT," CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YET YOU DID.
r 7
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
THE COURT: HE HAS SAID THAT HE DID. GO AHEAD.
r 9
10
Q. YOU ALSO STATED IN THAT REPORT FROM AUGUST 19,
2010, "BASED ON THE SCIENTIFIC REVIEW OF THE REPORT AND
r 11 DOCUMENTS PROVIDED FOR THE REPORT, THE STATED
r 12
13
CONCLUSIONS ARE" --
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M GOING TO OBJECT. IT'S
r 14
15
NOT INCONSISTENT.
HEARSAY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE -- IT'S
[ 16 THE COURT: SIDEBAR, PLEASE. LADIES AND

17 GENTLEMEN, LET'S PUT THAT SIDEBAR RULE IN EFFECT. THANK
r 18 YOU. OFF THE RECORD FOR A MOMENT.
r 19
20
THE COURT: THANK YOU, FOLKS. WE'RE BACK ON
r 21
22
THE RECORD.
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY PROCEED. PLEASE IDENTIFY
r 23
24
THE DOCUMENT, THOUGH, TO WHICH YOUR QUESTION MAY REFER.
MR. TROCHA: YES. IT WAS THE AUGUST 19, 2010,
r 25 REPORT. I'LL GET THE EXACT PAGE. PAGE 6 OF 9, THE
r
26 SECOND PARAGRAPH.
27 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. "BASED ON THE SCIENTIFIC REVIEW OF THE REPORT
r
2360
l
l
1 AND DOCUMENTS PROVIDED FOR THE REPORT, THE STATED
2 CONCLUSIONS ARE SUPPORTED BY THE GENETIC EVIDENCE." l

3 YOU WROTE THAT BACK IN AUGUST OF LAST YEAR,
4 CORRECT, DR. MILLER? l

5
6
A. HOWEVER, THAT IS AFTER THE FIRST ONES, WHICH
YOU ALREADY READ, WHICH WAS SAYING THAT WE -- YEAH, WE

l
7
8
CAN'T -- I MEAN, FROM THE DOCUMENTATION WHAT WE'RE
BASICALLY SAYING IS FROM THE DOCUMENTATION, WE'RE NOT

l
9 FINDING ANY ERRORS. l
10 SO THE POINT WOULD BE THAT YOU NEED TO EXPLORE
11 OTHER AVENUES. THAT'S ALL IT'S STATING. l

12 Q. SO EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS NOTHING YOU COULD FIND
13 IN THE DOCUMENTATION, YOU SHOULD ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT

1
14
15
BIAS.
A. CERTAINLY.
l
l
,,
16 Q. AND EVEN THOUGH YOU CAP THIS WITH, "THE STATED
17 CONCLUSIONS ARE SUPPORTED BY THE GENETIC EVIDENCE,"
18 YOU'RE TESTIFYING TODAY THAT THEY AREN'T.
19 A. THOSE ARE FROM 16-1 AND 2.

20 Q. WHICH YOU'VE TESTIFIED ABOUT TODAY, CORRECT? J
21
22
A. YES, I DID, BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT WE'VE ALSO
SEEN THAT THERE'S CONSIDERABLY HIGHER AMOUNTS OF

l
23
24
COMPLEXITY THAN WAS ORIGINALLY FOUND.
Q. THAT'S WHAT YOU'VE TESTIFIED ABOUT TODAY,

l
25 CORRECT, DOCTOR? YES OR NO? l
26 A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS.
27 Q. YOU'VE TESTIFIED ABOUT 16-1 AND 2, 17-2 AS l
28 WELL, CORRECT?
l
,
r 2361
r 1 A. CORRECT.
r 2 Q. IT TOOK YOU ANOTHER EIGHT MONTHS, THOUGH, TO
r 3
4
CORRECT THOSE STATEMENTS IN THE REPORT, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 5
6
Q.
REPORT,
WHY DO THINGS CONSTANTLY GET LEFT OUT OF YOUR
DOCTOR?
r 7
8
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: AND VAGUE.

SUSTAINED.
r 9 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 10
11
Q. YOU ALSO GO BEYOND THIS ROLE OF THE FUNCTIONS
OF THE DEFENSE EXPERT, CORRECT?
r 12
13
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
ARGUMENTATIVE.
OBJECTION. VAGUE.
r 14
15 PLEASE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. BE MORE SPECIFIC,
r 16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DO YOU AGREE THAT TRAINING DEFENSE ATTORNEYS IS
r 18 GOING BEYOND THE ROLE OF A DEFENSE EXPERT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
NO.
IT'S NOT? WHY NOT?
r 21
22
A. BECAUSE I THINK DEFENSE ATTORNEYS NEED TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT DNA IS ABOUT. I DON'T JUST TEACH
r 23
24
DEFENSE ATTORNEYS.
Q. THAT'S THE ONLY CLASS YOU OFFER, THOUGH. YOU
r 25 DON'T OFFER FORENSIC DNA PROSECUTION STRATEGIES.
r 26
27
A.
HAVE.
WE DO TEACH TO OFFICERS OF THE COURT AND ALWAYS
IN FACT, I'VE GIVEN TALKS TO PROSECUTIONS AND
r 28 I'VE GIVEN IT TO THE CALIFORNIA BAR ASSOCIATION.
r
2362
l
l
1 Q. DO YOU HAVE A MANUAL TO THAT REGARD?
2 A. I HAVE A POWERPOINT. l
3 Q. DID YOU SEND IT TO ME WHEN WE WERE ASKING FOR
4 THAT INFORMATION? l
5
6
A.
Q.
YOU DIDN'T ASK FOR THAT.
DO I HAVE TO BE SPECIFIC WHEN I ASK YOU FOR

l
7
8
THINGS?

1
9 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED. l
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. IN THIS MANUAL ON PAGE 29, YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT l

12 INTERPRETING MIXTURES, CORRECT?
13 A. THIS IS DATED, SO IT MAY NOT BE UP TO DATE ON

l
14
15
THAT ONE.
Q. WELL, THIS IS THE MOST RECENT ONE YOU SENT OUT

l
16 TO US, CORRECT, DOCTOR?
l
17 A. I'M JUST STATING A FACT, THAT THIS IS AN
18 EVOLVING FIELD. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT SAYS, SO I HAVEN'T l

19 LOOKED AT IT.
20 Q. PAGE 29, SECOND PARAGRAPH, STARTING WITH THE 1

21 WORD "CURRENT."
22 DO YOU SEE THAT?

l
23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
"CURRENT DNA TECHNOLOGIES ARE SENSITIVE AND CAN

l
25 DETECT DNA IN MINUTE AMOUNTS. MOST DNA ANALYSIS SYSTEMS l
26 ARE ALSO ABLE TO ESTIMATE THE RELATIVE QUANTITY OF EACH
27 PROFILE CONTRIBUTING TO THE DNA MIXTURE. LABORATORY l
28 REPORTS MAY CLASSIFY CERTAIN PROFILES AS BELONGING TO A
l
l
r 2363
r 1 MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR AND/OR A MINOR CONTRIBUTOR. WHEN MORE
r 2 THAN ONE PROFILE IS DETECTED IN THE SAMPLE, LABORATORIES
r 3
4
MAY DIFFER IN HOW THIS INFORMATION IS REPORTED."
DO YOU SEE THAT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHERE IN THIS MANUAL DOES IT SAY MIXTURES OF
r 7
8
THREE OR MORE PEOPLE OR FOUR OR MORE PEOPLE CANNOT BE
INTERPRETED?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
I ALREADY ANSWERED THE QUESTION, SO --
IT DOESN'T, DOES IT?
r 11 A. NO, IT DOESN'T. THIS IS A VERY BROAD
r 12
13
STATEMENT, AND IT'S ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT MAJORS AND
MINORS IN RELATIVELY SIMPLE MIXTURES.
r 14
15
Q. WELL, WHERE IN THIS MANUAL CAN YOU POINT TO
WHERE IT SAYS THESE MIXTURES SHOULD NOT BE INTERPRETED?
l 16 A.
Q.
IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.
BECAUSE IF IT DID, IT WOULD PRECLUDE YOU FROM
17
r 18 TESTIFYING AS A DEFENSE EXPERT WHERE A MIXTURE WERE TO
r 19
20
SHOW A DEFENDANT WAS EXONERATED?
A. I'M SORRY --
r 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
VAGUE.
r 23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. IF YOU ACTUALLY SAID A STATEMENT IN THIS MANUAL
r 25
26
WHERE YOU CAN'T INTERPRET MIXTURES OF FOUR OR MORE
PEOPLE, AND A DEFENSE ATTORNEY CAME TO YOU WITH A
r 27 MIXTURE SHOWING HIS CLIENT WASN'T INCLUDED, YOU WOULDN'T
r 28 BE ABLE TO TESTIFY TO THAT.
r
2364
l
.l
1 A. I ACTUALLY HAVE STATED IN SOME OF OUR REPORTS
2 TO OUR CLIENTS THAT IT'S INCONCLUSIVE. I'VE DONE l

3 EXACTLY THAT.
4 Q. WHAT ABOUT INFIDELITY TESTING? YOUR LAB OFFERS 1

5 THAT AS WELL, RIGHT?
6 A. YES. DO YOU NEED THE SERVICES?

l
7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
DOCTOR --
I'M SORRY. I APOLOGIZE. IT WAS

l
9 OUT OF LINE. l
10 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, CONTINUE, PLEASE.
11 BY MR. TROCHA: l
12 Q. HOW MANY WEBSITES DO YOU HAVE FOR THIS SERVICE?
14
15
Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A WEBSITE "CAUGHT HIM
CHEATING" DOT COM?

l
16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT ABOUT "CAUGHT HER CHEATING" DOT COM?

l
18 A. YES. l
19 Q. THOSE ARE THE WEBSITES CONNECTED DIRECTLY TO
20 CHROMOSOMAL LABS, RIGHT? l
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. YOU DO MIXTURE INTERPRETATION OFF THESE

l
23
24
WEBSITES ALL THE TIME, DO YOU NOT?

l
26 THE WITNESS: WE DO MIXTURE INTERPRETATIONS OF
27 TWO PEOPLE. 1
28 Ill
l
l
r 2365
r 1 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 2 Q. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.
r
L
3
4
THERE IS A FORM YOU HAVE PEOPLE FILL OUT IN
WHAT'S GOING TO BE ANALYZED, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
UNDERWEAR, A CONDOM, CLOTHING, BEDSHEETS,
r 7
8
PILLOW CASES, OR OTHER, IS WHAT YOUR LAB SUGGEST BE
SUBMITTED TO CHROMOSOMAL LABS, CORRECT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND SINCE WE'RE DOING INFIDELITY TESTING, THAT
[ 11 NATURALLY ASSUMES IT'S TWO PEOPLE TO BEGIN WITH, A
r 12
13
HUSBAND AND A WIFE, BOYFRIEND AND GIRLFRIEND OR SAME-SEX
COUPLES, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
COULD BE.
WE'LL USE A TRADITIONAL HUSBAND AND WIFE.
r 16 MOST HUSBANDS AND WIVES SLEEP IN ONE BED,
r
17 CORRECT?
18 A. I WOULD PRESUME SO.
r 19
20
Q. WOULD IT BE OUT OF THE QUESTION THAT A HUSBAND
AND WIFE WOULD SHARE THE SAME BED?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
SO IF ONE OF THEM WAS CHEATING ON THEIR PARTNER
r 23
24
IN THAT BED, THAT WOULD BE A THIRD PERSON, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 25 Q. AND THE HUSBAND AND WIFE'S DNA IS ALREADY GOING
r 26
27
TO BE ON THOSE SHEETS BECAUSE THEY SLEEP IN THEM ALL THE
TIME.
r 28 A. CORRECT.
r
2366
1
l
1 Q. THE THIRD PERSON WOULD BE ADDED INTO THE MIX
3
4
AND HAVE A THIRD MIX OF DNA, CORRECT?
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SO IN ORDER TO INTERPRET THAT MIXTURE, YOU HAVE

,
l
~
TO IDENTIFY THE THREE PEOPLE INVOLVED, YES?

5
6 A. NOT NECESSARILY. WE OFTENTIMES WILL HAVE THE

1
7
8
REFERENCES FROM THE HUSBAND AND THE WIFE, AND THEN WE'LL
LOOK AND SEE IF THERE'S FOREIGN ALLELES THAT ARE NOT

l
9 COMMON TO EITHER ONE OF THOSE. l
10 Q. SO YOU HAVE A MIXTURE, YOU IDENTIFY TWO OF THE
11 PEOPLE IN THAT MIXTURE, AND THERE'S A THIRD PERSON l

12 THAT'S UNIDENTIFIED.
13 A. CORRECT.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
THAT WOULD BE MIXTURE INTERPRETATION.
CORRECT.
l
1
16
17
18
19
Q.
PARTNERS?
A.
WHAT IF ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE HAS MULTIPLE
THEN WE WOULD RENDER AN OPINION OF
INCONCLUSIVE. WE DO THAT ALL THE TIME.

,
20 Q. THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR WEBSITE SAYS, THOUGH, 1
,
l
21 CORRECT, DR. MILLER?
22 A. I'M NOT SURE.

_l

25 BY MR. TROCHA: l
26 Q. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT "CAUGHT HIM CHEATING" DOT
27 COM RECENTLY? l
28 A. NO, I HAVE NOT.
,
l
J
r 2367
[
1 Q. THERE IS A PROMISE ON THERE SAYING, QUOTE,
r 2 LINGERING DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR HUSBAND'S POSSIBLE
r
L
3
4
INFIDELITY CAN WREAK HAVOC ON YOUR EMOTIONAL STATE OF
BEING. PUT THOSE DOUBTS TO REST WITH A DNA SEMEN SCREEN
5 OR SALIVA TEST, THE ONLY FOOLPROOF METHOD FOR
[
6 DETERMINING FIDELITY.
r 7
8 A.
DO THOSE WORDS SOUND FAMILIAR TO YOU?
YEAH.
r 9
10
Q. SO IN THE UNFORTUNATE SITUATION WHERE A WIFE
FINDS HER HUSBAND HAVING SEX WITH MULTIPLE WOMEN OTHER
r 11 THAN HERSELF, ARE YOU GOING TO RENDER A CONCLUSION
r 12
13
SAYING, "SORRY"?
A. WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SAY IS THAT THERE'S FOREIGN
[ 14 ALLELES TO THE HUSBAND AND WIFE AND THAT WE CAN'T DRAW

15 CONCLUSIONS AS TO THE DONORS. WE DO IT ALL THE TIME.
r 16
17
Q. SO, IN EFFECT, YOU'VE INTERPRETED A MIXTURE OF
FOUR OR MORE PEOPLE IN THAT CASE.
r 18 A. NO, WE HAVE NOT.
r 19
20
Q. WELL, IF A SAMPLE COMES IN AND THE HUSBAND'S
CHEATED ON HIS WIFE WITH TWO ADDITIONAL WOMEN, THAT'S
r 21
22
FOUR PEOPLE IN THAT BED, CORRECT?
A. ALL WE'RE SAYING IS THAT THERE'S FOREIGN
r 23
24
ALLELES.
Q.
IT WOULD BE INCONCLUSIVE.
SO YOU'RE GUARANTEEING A PERSON'S EMOTIONAL
r
[_
25 WELL-BEING ABOUT THEIR MARITAL INFIDELITY, AND YOUR
26 ANSWER IS THERE'S GOING TO BE FOREIGN ALLELES?

r 27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASKED AND
r 28 ANSWERED.
r
1
1 THE COURT: MOVE ON, PLEASE. SUSTAINED.
2368
,
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. THERE'S, AGAIN, NO DISCLAIMER ON THE SITE
4 SAYING IT CAN'T BE DONE IF THERE'S A MIXTURE OF FOUR OR

l J
6
MORE PEOPLE, CORRECT?
A. NO.
l
7
8 CORRECT?
THE COURT: NO, THERE ISN'T, OR NO, IT'S NOT
RESTATE THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE.

l
9 MR. TROCHA: SURE. l
10 BY MR. TROCHA:
11 Q. THERE IS NO DISCLAIMER ON THE SITE SAYING THAT l

12 YOU CANNOT INTERPRET MIXTURES OF FOUR OR MORE PEOPLE. ~
1
13 A. THERE IS NO DISCLAIMER.
14
15 DOCTOR?
Q. WE HEARD ABOUT A RETEST IN THIS CASE, CORRECT,
l
16 THE COURT: BE MORE SPECIFIC.
l
17 MR. TROCHA: SURE.
18 BY MR. TROCHA: l
19 Q. YOU RETESTED A T-SHIRT IN THIS CASE, DID YOU
20 NOT? l
21 A. I DON'T BELIEVE IT WAS TESTED PREVIOUSLY, SO IT
22 WOULD NOT BE A RETEST.

l
23
24
Q. IF YOU LOOKED AT ALL OF SHAWN MONTPETIT'S
REPORTS, ARE YOU SAYING YOU DIDN'T SEE ANY DNA TEST
l
25 CONDUCTED ON THAT T-SHIRT? 1 _J
26 A. I BELIEVE THERE WAS ON THE BLOOD, BUT I DON'T

27 BELIEVE THERE WAS FOR THE WEARER, IF I REMEMBER l
28 CORRECTLY.
l
l
r 2369
r 1
r
Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE A STATEMENT IN THE REPORT SAYING
2 THE DNA AMOUNTS WERE TOO SMALL TO EVEN MAKE A
r 3
4
COMPARISON?
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE
r 5
6
REPORTS.
Q. GOING BACK TO YOUR -- BEFORE WE GET TO THAT,
r 7
8
YOU DIDN'T RETEST THE GLOVES, THOUGH.
A. NO.
r 9 Q. GOING BACK TO PAGE 34 OF YOUR MANUAL, STARTING
r
10 AT THE VERY TOP, THE CAPTION "THE IMPACT OF DNA EVIDENCE
11 ON THE DEFENSE THEORY OF THE CASE" -- DO YOU SEE THAT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
THE FIRST PARAGRAPH STATES, "BECAUSE OF THE
r 14
15
RELIABILITY OF DNA TESTING, THE DEFENDANT MUST BE
INFORMED OF THE POTENTIAL OF BEING IDENTIFIED AS THE
[ 16 SOURCE OF THE DNA MATERIAL BEFORE A DEFENSE IS ASSERTED
17 THAT MIGHT BE CONTRADICTED BY THE RESULTS OF THE DNA
r 18 ANALYSIS." DO YOU SEE THAT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
WHERE DOES THAT FALL IN UNDER THE FUNCTIONS OF
r 21
22
THE DEFENSE EXPERT, DR. MILLER?
r 23
24
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU'RE ASKING.
r 25 BY MR. TROCHA:
r
26 Q. WELL, ARE YOU ACTUALLY CREATING A DEFENSE BASED
27 UPON WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE THERE IN DNA?
r 28 A. AGAIN, I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU'RE ASKING.
r
2370
l
l
1 Q. YOUR STATEMENT IS: THE DEFENSE MUST CONSULT
2 BASICALLY WITH YOU FIRST BEFORE EXPLORING POSSIBLE l

3 DEFENSES, CORRECT?
4 A. IT'S ADVISABLE. l
Q. SO YOU'RE ASSISTING IN CREATING THE DEFENSE.
5
l
6
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
BASICALLY THIS COMES DOWN TO AN EXAMPLE WHERE
THERE'S A RAPE CASE, AND A DEFENDANT IN A RAPE CASE

, 1
9 WANTS TO CLAIM IT WASN'T HIM AND HE NEVER TOUCHED THE l

10 WOMAN, CORRECT?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. AND DNA MAY PROVE OTHERWISE.
13 A. CORRECT.
14 Q. AND IT MAY BE MORE ADVISABLE IN THAT SITUATION
15 TO GO WITH A CONSENT DEFENSE INSTEAD?
16 A. THAT'S UP TO THE ATTORNEY. ALL I WILL DO IS

l
17 LOOK AT THE DNA EVIDENCE AND SAY THAT THE DNA IS
18 CONSISTENT WITH THE DEFENDANT. l
19 Q. EXCEPT THE SECOND PARAGRAPH CONTRADICTS THAT
20 STATEMENT, CORRECT, DOCTOR?
21 THE COURT: READ IT, PLEASE.

22 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
23
24
Q. "ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE DEFENDANT COULD NOT
HAVE BEEN THE SOURCE OF THE DNA EVIDENCE, A DEFENSE
l
25 DEMAND FOR DNA TESTING IS CRITICAL TO ENSURE A PROMPT l
26 TERMINATION OF THE CASE AND SECURE POTENTIAL EXCULPATORY
27 OR EXONERATING EVIDENCE." l
28 A. I DON'T SEE WHY THAT'S CONTRADICTORY.
l
l
r 2371
r 1 Q. YOU SAY YOU HAVE NO ROLE IN CREATING THE
r 2
3
DEFENSE, BUT YET THIS PLAYS A DIRECT ROLE IN CREATING
THE DEFENSE, CORRECT?
rm
l 4 A. ALL I'M SAYING IS WE LOOK AT THE DNA.
r 5
6
Q. SO A SITUATION WHERE A PERSON SAYS, "THERE IS
NO WAY MY CLIENT'S DNA COULD BE ON THAT OBJECT," YOUR

~ 7 MANUAL RECOMMENDS THAT THAT OBJECT BE TESTED FOR
l
8 EXCULPATORY, IF NOT EXONERATING, EVIDENCE, CORRECT?
r 9
10
A.
Q.
THAT'S TRUE.
YOU WOULD MAKE THAT ADVISAL TO THE DEFENSE

r 11 ATTORNEY.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SO YOU WOULD HELP IN INFORMING THE DEFENSE.
r 14
15
A. I MEAN, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE DNA EVIDENCE.
DON'T UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE GOING WITH THIS, BUT THAT'S
I
r 16
17
OKAY.
Q. WELL, LET'S FOCUS IN ON THIS CASE.
r 18 IF THERE'S A CLAIM MADE THAT THERE'S NO WAY
r 19
20
SOMEONE'S DNA COULD BE ON A PAIR OF GLOVES, YOUR MANUAL
WILL RECOMMEND THAT IT BE RETESTED.
r 21
22
A.
WAS TESTED.
NOT NECESSARILY RETESTED, JUST TESTED. AND IT
IT WAS TESTED MANY TIMES BY SAN DIEGO
r 23
24
POLICE DEPARTMENT.
Q. EXCEPT YOU'RE HERE SAYING THAT TESTING IS
r 25 INVALID, CORRECT?
A. NO, I'M NOT SAYING THE TESTING WAS INVALID.
r
26
27 I'M SAYING THE STATISTICAL TREATISES OF IT WAS.
r 28 Q. YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT REPRODUCIBILITY,
r
1 J
2372
l j
1 CORRECT?
2 A. CORRECT. 1 j
3 Q. WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO SEE IF THE RESULTS WERE
,
~
4 REPRODUCIBLE? J
5 A. I'M NOT QUESTIONING -- I MEAN, YOU CAN

J
6 CERTAINLY RETEST IT AND SEE IF IT'S REPRODUCIBLE.
7 Q. YET YOU DIDN'T. '1 J
l
8 A. NO.
9 Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU SAID BEFORE IT'S EXTREMELY l I
10 IMPORTANT, CORRECT?
~
I
11 A. I AGREE. IT'S IMPORTANT. J
12 Q. YOU WANT TO SEE IF IT'S DONE IN THE EXACT SAME

13 RESULTS AND THE EXACT SAME CONDITIONS, CORRECT?
l J
14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YOU DIDN'T DO IT IN THIS CASE.
l
16 A. I COULDN'T DO IT IN THIS CASE. REPRODUCIBILITY
l
17 WOULD BE WITHIN THE LABORATORY WITH THE SAME
18 CONCENTRATIONS, SAME TYPES OF CONDITIONS. l
19 Q. YOU DID IT WITH A T-SHIRT, THOUGH, DOCTOR,
20 CORRECT? l
22 Q. SO YOU RETESTED A T-SHIRT, BUT YOU'RE NOT
l
23
24
CALLING IT A RETEST, YES?
l
25 ANSWERED.
l
26 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU TESTED THE T-SHIRT.
27 THE WITNESS: WE TESTED THE T-SHIRT, AND I l
28 DON'T HAVE THE REPORT IN FRONT OF ME.
l
l
r 2373
r 1 THE COURT: LET'S DO THIS: LET'S TAKE THE NOON
r 2
3
RECESS. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE REMEMBER THE
ADMONITION. LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS.
r[
4 THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
r 5
6
LET'S RECONVENE AT 1:30.
DR. MILLER, AT 1:30, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
WE'RE IN RECESS.
MY THANKS TO COUNSEL AND PARTIES.
r 9
10
r 11 Ill
r 12
13
Ill
Ill
r 14
15
Ill
Ill
r 16
17
Ill
Ill
r 18 Ill
Ill
r 19
20 Ill
r 21
22
Ill
Ill
r 23
24
Ill
Ill
r 25
26
Ill
Ill
r 27 Ill
r 28 Ill
r
, I
2374
, l
1 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, APRIL 18, 2011; 1:30 PM
2 l
3 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GOOD
l I
4 AFTERNOON. ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT. ALL PARTIES AND J
5 COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. DR. MILLER IS ON THE WITNESS

1 J
6 STAND.
7
8
MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR EXAMINATION.

l
9 BY MR. TROCHA:
10 Q. BEFORE LUNCH WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE T-SHIRT
11 YOU DID TESTING ON. l
12 WHAT KIND OF TEST WAS DONE ON THIS?
13 A. IT WAS DNA TESTING. l
14
15
Q. CORRECT. WHAT TYPE?
YOU SAID IT WAS DEGRADED DNA, SO YOU COULDN'T
l
16
17
USE A NORMAL PCR.
A. IT'S STILL A PCR METHOD. IT'S A METHOD THAT
l
18 UTILIZES WHAT'S CALLED MINI-FILER. IT'S A METHOD WHERE, l
19 WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THAT THEY SET IT UP, THEY HAVE
20 SMALL FRAGMENTS AND LARGER FRAGMENTS, BECAUSE THEY DO l
21 ALL 16; THEY'VE TAKEN THE ONES LARGER BECAUSE THEY ARE
l
22
23
24
MORE SUBJECT TO DROPOUT, THEY'RE MORE SUBJECT TO HAVING
PROBLEMS WITH THEM, SO THEY MADE THEM IN A SMALLER
FRAGMENT SO THAT THEY ARE MUCH MORE SENSITIVE.
, J
25 Q. AND YOU ONLY TEST, I THINK, FOR NINE MARKERS? l

26 A. IT'S EIGHT PLUS --
27 Q. EIGHT PLUS THE SEX.
l j
28 A. RIGHT.
l
l
r 2375
r 1 Q. AND THIS IS BECAUSE THE DNA WAS DEGRADED?
r 2 A. LOW CONCENTRATIONS OR DEGRADED. IN THIS CASE
r
3 IT WAS A VERY LOW CONCENTRATION.
4 Q. AND YOU SAID THAT MR. LOPEZ'S DNA PROFILE WAS
5 CONSISTENT?
r 7
8
Q.
A.
HOW WAS IT CONSISTENT?
IT WAS CONSISTENT -- OF THE NINE LOCI, SEVEN OF
r 9 THEM YIELDED RESULTS, AND MR. LOPEZ WAS CONSISTENT AT

10
r
ALL SEVEN LOCI. THERE WAS EVIDENCE ON A SECOND
11 CONTRIBUTOR.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
ARE YOU SURE IT WAS ALL SEVEN OUT OF EIGHT?
I BELIEVE SO. I CAN LOOK AT THE --
r 14
15
Q.
A.
PLEASE LOOK AT MARKER D16S539 FROM THE T-SHIRT.
HE IS MISSING ONE OF THE TWO ALLELES, YOU'RE
r 16
17
CORRECT.
Q. SO HE WOULD ONLY BE CONSISTENT AT SIX OF EIGHT.
r 18 A. CORRECT.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
YET YOUR REPORT SAYS SEVEN OF EIGHT.
HE IS STILL CONSISTENT WITH THAT ONE ALLELE.
r 21
22
THERE IS NOTHING FOREIGN THERE.
Q. WELL, HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU RUN THIS TEST?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
WE RAN IT THREE TIMES.
AND EACH TIME THAT 13 DIDN'T COME UP, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A.
PROFILE.
NO, THAT'S NOT CORRECT. THIS IS A CONSENSUS
WHAT WE DO ON CONSENSUS PROFILE IS WE ONLY
r 27 REPORT THE ALLELES THAT ARE REPRODUCIBLE TO ELIMINATE
r 28 THE PROBLEM OF HAVING ARTIFACTS. SO I WOULD HAVE TO GO
r
2376
2
BACK AND LOOK.
I DON'T HAVE THE DATA WITH ME, BUT WHAT YOU
,
3 WILL SEE IS THAT WE MAY HAVE HAD A 13 IN ONE OF THE
4 THREE RUNS, AND WE DIDN'T REPORT IT BECAUSE WE DIDN'T
5 SEE IT IN TWO OF THE OTHER RUNS. ! I
J
6 Q. EXCEPT THE WAY THE REPORT WAS WRITTEN, YOU'RE
7 COUNTING THAT ONE, EVEN THOUGH THE 13 DOESN'T SHOW UP
l
8
9
FOR MR. LOPEZ.
A. IN THE STATISTICS WE DID NOT.
, I
)
10 Q. EXCEPT IN THE REPORT IT DOESN'T TALK ANYTHING

11 ABOUT NOT COUNTING THAT ONE, BUT SAYS THE RESULTS OF l
12 SEVEN OR EIGHT LOCI ARE CONSISTENT WITH TOMAS LOPEZ.
13 A. OKAY. BUT IT GOES ON AND SAYS, "AT SIX OF THE
l
14
15
SEVEN THAT PRODUCED RESULTS."
REST OF THE STATEMENT.
YOU NEED TO FINISH THE
SO I ACTUALLY --
l
16 Q. OKAY
l
17 A. SIR, YOU WERE SAYING THAT, OKAY, HIS RESULTS --
18 THE RESULTS OF SEVEN OF EIGHT LOCI CONSISTENT WITH THE l
19 DNA PROFILE OF TOMAS LOPEZ AT SIX OF THE SEVEN THAT
20 PRODUCED RESULTS. SO WE DID NOT COUNT THAT ONE. l
21 AND HE WAS STILL CONSISTENT WITH THE ONE THAT
22 WAS THERE, BUT WE DID NOT PUT THAT IN THE STATISTICAL
l
23
24
CALCULATION.
Q. FROM YOUR DNA OF THIS T-SHIRT, YOU WEREN'T ABLE
l
25 TO DETERMINE IF IT WAS A MALE OR A FEMALE, CORRECT? l
26 A. THAT'S CORRECT, NOT AT LEAST REPRODUCIBLY.
27 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU DO RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY ON l
28 THIS?
l
l
r 2377
r 1 A. WELL, WE COULD HAVE, BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR
r 2
3
CASE WE WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED IT AS BEING A -- THERE WAS
PROBABLY NOT A CLEAR -- OR THERE WASN'T A CLEAR

r 4 MAJOR/MINOR PROFILE. WE PROBABLY HAD HIM -- IN FACT, I
r 5
6
KNOW WE DID. WE HAD HIM AS THE PREDOMINANT PERSON IN
THE MAJORS, BUT THERE WERE SOME THAT WOULD FALL OVER
r 7
8
INTO THE MINORS, WHICH IS VERY CONSISTENT WITH
LOW-DNA-TYPE PROFILES.
r 9 Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION ON THIS? THAT IT
10 WAS 4,000 TIMES MORE LIKELY THAT TOMAS LOPEZ WAS A
r 11 CONTRIBUTOR TO THIS MIXTURE?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
BUT HE ONLY MATCHED AT SIX OF 16 DNA MARKERS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
WE DIDN'T DO 16. WE DID --
WELL, THERE'S 16 TOTAL, CORRECT, DOCTOR?
r 16
17
A.
MARKERS.
NO, THERE ARE NOT. TOTAL -- I MEAN, WE DO 26
THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE UTILIZED HAD EIGHT
r 18 MARKERS PLUS AN ALLOGENA.
r 19
20
Q. WELL, LET'S GET INTO THIS TEST VERSUS THE ONES
YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, SHAWN MONTPETIT'S.
r 21
22
SHAWN MONTPETIT IS TALKING ABOUT 16 DIFFERENT
MARKERS, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ON THIS PARTICULAR TEST, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
r 25
26
NINE.
A. CORRECT.
r 27 Q. SO FOR MR. LOPEZ, IF WE WERE TO EXPAND IT AND
r 28 SAY THERE WERE 16 MARKERS, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE
r
2378
1
l
1
2
OTHER SEVEN MARKERS ARE, CORRECT?
A. WE DIDN'T HAVE DATA ON THE OTHER SEVEN MARKERS.
, J
3 Q. YET YOU'RE COMFORTABLE IN SAYING HE'S 4,000
4
5
6
TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE INCLUDED IN THAT MIXTURE.
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T KNOW HALF OF THE DNA
,
l
J
,
7 PROFILE. l
j
8 A. THAT'S NOT CORRECT. THIS IS THE DNA PROFILE WE

9 GOT OFF OF IT. WE HAD SIX OUT OF SEVEN. J
10 Q. EVEN THOUGH HE ONLY MATCHES AT LESS THAN HALF

11 OF 16; SIX OUT OF 16? l
12 A. WE DIDN'T DO 16.
13 Q. WELL, THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS, DOCTOR, YOU l
14
15
HAVE COME IN ON THIS CASE MULTIPLE TIMES AND CRITIQUED
MR. MONTPETIT FOR INCLUDING MR. DOMINGUEZ IN A SAMPLE
l
l
,
16 WHERE HE MATCHES AT 13 OF 15, CORRECT?
17 A. HIS ALLELES WERE PRESENT IN 13 OUT OF 15,
18 CORRECT. J
19 Q. AND IN THOSE CASES, MR. DOMINGUEZ, ON THOSE
20 ALLELES, IS MISSING ONLY ONE ALLELE, SUCH AS THIS 13. l
21 A. CORRECT. BUT IT'S ALSO A MIXTURE OF FOUR.
22 THIS IS A MIXTURE OF TWO.
l
23 Q. BUT YOU'VE ALSO TESTIFIED THAT IF SOMEONE
24 MATCHED AT 13 AND 15, YOU WOULD CLASS THEM AS
25 INCONCLUSIVE OR EXTREMELY WEAK, CORRECT? l
26 A. I WOULD CLASSIFY THEM AS INCONCLUSIVE BECAUSE
27 OF THE COMPLEXITY WITH FOUR CONTRIBUTORS. l
28 Q. SO IT'S EASIER FOR YOU TO MATCH SOMEBODY BASED
l
l
r 2379
r 1 UPON INCOMPLETE DNA PROFILES?
r 2 A. THIS IS NOT AN INCOMPLETE DNA PROFILE.
r
3 Q. YOU HAVE NINE MARKERS, CORRECT?
4 A. THAT'S WHAT THIS CHEMISTRY DOES.
r 5
6
Q. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE 16 SUCH AS THE OTHER
CHEMISTRY, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND YOU'RE FINE MAKING A CONCLUSION THAT
r 9 SOMEBODY IS 4,000 MORE TIMES LIKELY BASED ON HALF THE
10 INFORMATION YOU HAVE.

r 11 A. IT'S NOT HALF THE INFORMATION. IT'S THE FULL
r 12
13
INFORMATION FROM THIS CHEMISTRY BECAUSE IT'S DEGRADED
AND LOW DNA.
r 14
15
Q. MEANING THERE'S LESS THERE AND SOME OF IT'S
MISSING, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NOT NECESSARILY.
IF IT'S DEGRADED, YOU DON'T HAVE A FULL SET,

r
L 18 RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
RIGHT.
SO YOU'RE MAKING A CONCLUSION SAYING SOMEBODY
r 21
22
IS 4,000 TIMES MORE LIKELY ON MISSING INFORMATION.
A. NO. I'M DOING IT BASED UPON THE INFORMATION
r 23
24
THAT WE HAVE.
COMPLETE.
THE GENETIC INFORMATION IS THERE; IT IS
r 25 Q. SO ALL WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO DO IS DO A
DIFFERENT KIND OF SAMPLE ON THE GLOVES AND ONLY COME UP

r
26
27 WITH NINE MARKERS, AND IF MR. DOMINGUEZ MATCHED, HE
r 28 COULD BE 4,000 TIMES MORE LIKELY --
r
1
2380
, j
1 A. IF THERE WERE ONLY TWO CONTRIBUTORS, I MIGHT

2 VERY WELL AGREE WITH YOU. l
3 Q. WELL, IN TALKING ABOUT THAT, YOU SAID THERE
4 COULD BE SEVEN DIFFERENT CONTRIBUTORS IN THE GLOVES, l
5
6
RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
1
7
8
Q. WELL, THERE COULD BE FOUR CONTRIBUTORS IN THIS
T-SHIRT, CORRECT?
l
9 A. THERE COULD BE. l
10 Q. YET YOU'RE COMFORTABLE MAKING A CONCLUSION
11 WHERE MR. LOPEZ, IN A MIXTURE OF POSSIBLY FOUR PEOPLE, l
12 IS 4,000 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE INCLUDED.
13 A. ALL THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO TWO CONTRIBUTORS l
14
15
HERE.
Q. EXCEPT WHEN THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO 13 OF 15, OR
l
l
,
16 15 OR 15, YOUR CONCLUSION IS THAT IT'S INCONCLUSIVE.
17 A. BECAUSE THERE ARE FOUR CONTRIBUTORS.
18 Q. IS IT BECAUSE ALSO MR. DOMINGUEZ IS PAYING YOU? J
19 A. MR. DOMINGUEZ IS NOT PAYING ME, SIR.

20 Q. YOU'RE GETTING PAID BY THE DEFENSE, CORRECT? l
21 A. I'M NOT BEING PAID BY THE DEFENSE. I'M BEING
22 PAID BY SAN DIEGO COUNTY.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE.
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE.
l
25 Q. AND THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, YOU WERE ALSO l
26 PAID BY THE DEFENSE AS WELL.
27 A. I WAS PAID BY SAN DIEGO COUNTY. AND I WASN'T l
28 BEING PAID. I DON'T GET PAID. I DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR
l
l j
r 2381
r 1 THIS, SIR.
r 2 Q. WELL, WE'LL GET INTO --
r 3
4
A. I GET PAID -- YOU ASKED THE QUESTION.
FINISH MY RESPONSE?
MAY I
r 5
6
Q.
A.
SURE.
THANK YOU.
r 7
8 LABORATORY.
MY SALARY DOES NOT CHANGE. THIS GOES TO THE
IT'S NOT ANYTHING THAT I GET PERSONAL GAIN
r 9
10
FROM.
Q. YOU WOULDN'T BE HERE TESTIFYING IF IT WASN'T
r 11 FOR MR. DOMINGUEZ AND THE DEFENSE HIRING YOU, SAFE TO
r 12
13
SAY?
A. I AGREE WITH THAT.
r 14
15
Q. LET'S GET BACK TO THE LIKELIHOOD RATIO.
YOU HAVE TO MAKE A BUNCH OF ASSUMPTIONS IN
r 16 ORDER TO USE THIS TO BEGIN WITH, CORRECT?
r
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. YOU HAVE TO FIRST ASSUME THAT MR. LOPEZ IS A
r 19
20
CONTRIBUTOR.
A. THE LIKELIHOOD RATIO ACTUALLY DOES NOT -- IT
r 21
22
HAS TWO ASSUMPTIONS. THE FIRST ASSUMPTION IS THAT HE
IS, AND THEN IT SAYS THE SECOND ASSUMPTION IS THAT HE IS
r 23
24
NOT.
RATIO DOES.
AND IT COMPARES THOSE. THAT'S WHAT THE LIKELIHOOD
r 25 SO YOU'RE NOT ASSUMING IT FOR THE ENTIRE
r 26
27
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, BECAUSE YOU'RE LOOKING AT BOTH
HYPOTHESES, WHICH IS THE POWER OF THAT PARTICULAR
r 28 STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
r
2382
1
1
1 Q. YOU HAVE TO ASSUME AT LEAST FOR ONE OF THEM
2 THAT HE'S THERE, RIGHT? l
3 A. THAT IS CORRECT, SO THAT YOU ARE COMPARING THE
4 LIKELIHOOD OF HIM BEING THERE WITH AN UNKNOWN 1
5 CONTRIBUTOR VERSUS TWO UNKNOWN CONTRIBUTORS, WHICH MEANS
6 THAT THE OPPOSING
l
7
8
Q.
A.
THEN --
MAY I FINISH MY -- THANK YOU, SIR.
l
9 -- THE OPPOSING HYPOTHESIS IS ALSO INCLUDED IN l
10 THAT STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, NOT JUST ASSUMING THAT HE IS
11 THERE. IT SAYS IF YOU ASSUME HE IS THERE, THIS GIVES l
12 YOU ONE NUMBER; IF HE'S NOT THERE, THIS GIVES YOU A
13 DIFFERENT NUMBER, AND THEN IT COMPARES THOSE RATIOS. l
14
15
Q. YOU ALSO HAVE TO ASSUME THERE'S ONLY TWO PEOPLE
IN THE MIXTURE, RIGHT?
l
16 A. WE ARE ASSUMING TWO PEOPLE BASED UPON THE
l
17 GENETIC EVIDENCE.
18 Q. YOU ALSO HAVE TO ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE ALL THE l
19 DNA PRESENT IN THE MIXTURE, CORRECT?
20 A. ALL THE DNA PRESENT IN THE MIXTURE, THAT WHICH l
21 CAN BE DETECTED.
l
22
23
24
Q. SO YOU'RE ASSUMING WHAT'S DETECTED IS ALL
THAT'S THERE.
A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID, "WHAT CAN BE
,
J
25 DETECTED." l
26 Q. IT'S STILL AN ASSUMPTION THAT IT'S ALL DETECTED
27 AND IT'S THERE, CORRECT? l
28 A. NO. IT'S WHAT CAN BE DETECTED. I'M NOT MAKING
l
,
J
r 2383
r 1 AN ASSUMPTION AS TO IF THAT'S ALL THE DNA THAT'S THERE.
r 2
3
IF IT'S BELOW THRESHOLDS, THEN I CAN'T DETECT IT.
Q. WELL, LET'S USE MR. LOPEZ FOR AN EXAMPLE. HIS

r 4 13 IS NOT THERE, BUT YOU'RE ASSUMING IT'S THERE.
r 5
6
A. AND IT'S NOT ADDED INTO THE STATISTICS AS
PRESCRIBED BY BUDOWLE AND CO-WORKERS.
r 7
8
Q. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THERE IS NOT A 29 ON THE
FIRST LINE?
r 9 A. THERE COULD BE. I MEAN, AS I SAID, IF IT'S
10 BELOW MY THRESHOLDS, THEN I CAN'T DETECT IT; THEN I

r 11 DON'T KNOW IT'S THERE.
r 12
13
Q.
THERE.
SO YOU'RE MAKING AN ASSUMPTION THAT IT'S NOT
r 14
15
A. NO. I'M SAYING IT'S BELOW MY THRESHOLDS.
SAYING THAT I CANNOT DETECT ANYTHING OTHER THAN EVIDENCE
I'M
r 16
17
OF TWO CONTRIBUTORS, IT'S CONSISTENT WITH THAT, AND OF
THE TWO CONTRIBUTORS, ALL OF MR. LOPEZ IS THERE.
r 18
19
AND THEN WE DO THE RATIO TO SHOW THE
PROBABILITY OF HIS BEING THERE AS OPPOSED TO TWO RANDOM

r 20 INDIVIDUALS, SO THAT WE TAKE INTO ACCOUNT BOTH SCENARIOS
r 21
22
WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT AN ASSUMPTION.
Q. CAN YOU PROVE THIS IS ALL THE DNA THAT'S THERE?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
SO YOU ARE ASSUMING, THEN, THAT THAT'S ALL THE
r 25 DNA THAT'S THERE.

26 A. NO. I'M SAYING IT'S ALL THAT'S DETECTED. WITH
r 27 THE MOST SENSITIVE METHOD THAT WE HAVE PRESENTLY AT OUR
r 28 DISPOSAL, THAT IS WHAT WE DETECTED. THAT'S WHAT I'M
r
2384
1
I J
1 SAYING.
2 I'M NOT MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE'S l
3 DNA BEING THERE. WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANYONE ELSE'S
4 DNA BEING THERE BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE ANY FOREIGN ALLELES l
5 THAT AREN'T ACCOUNTED FOR BY MR. LOPEZ OR WOULD BE
6 ACCOUNTED FOR BY ONE OTHER PERSON POSSIBLY.
l
7
8
Q. SO YOU'RE MAKING THE ASSUMPTION THAT ANY DNA
THAT'S NOT THERE WOULD EITHER BELONG TO MR. LOPEZ OR
l
9 SOMEBODY ELSE. l
10 A. I'M SORRY?
11 Q. SURE. YOU SAID YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE ASSUMPTION l
12 THAT THE ALLELES THAT WERE THERE ARE ACCOUNTED FOR
13 EITHER BY MR. LOPEZ OR BY SOMEBODY ELSE. l
14
15
A.
Q.
WE KNOW THAT IT'S A MIXTURE.
SO YOU'RE MAKING AN ASSUMPTION THERE ARE
l
16
17
ALLELES THERE THAT AREN'T ACTUALLY THERE.
l
A. I'M NOT FOLLOWING YOUR QUESTION AT ALL. I'M
18 SORRY. l
19 Q. THEN YOU COMPARED THIS TO HOW MANY PEOPLE?
l
,
20 A. WE WERE GIVEN THE REFERENCE FOR MR. LOPEZ.
21 Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE DID YOU COMPARE THIS SAMPLE TO?
22 A. TO MR. LOPEZ.
J
23
24
Q.
A.
AND WHO ELSE?
THAT'S IT.
l
25 Q. DIDN'T WE HEAR ABOUT MR. DOMINGUEZ? l
26 A. OH, I'M SORRY. YES, WE DID LOOK AT
27 MR. DOMINGUEZ. l
28 Q. WE ALSO HEARD ZEPADA MENTIONED IN REGARDS TO A
l
l
r 2385
r 1 STAIN TOO, RIGHT?
r 2 A. I'M SORRY?
r 3
4
Q. WE HEARD DANIEL ZEPADA MATCHED A STAIN ON THIS
SAME SHIRT AS WELL, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
WHY WERE YOU ONLY GIVEN THREE REFERENCE SAMPLES
r 7
8
FOR AN UNKNOWN MIXTURE?
A. I CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. ALL I CAN TELL
r 9 YOU IS WHAT WAS GIVEN TO US.
r 10
11
Q. WELL, YOU WERE GIVEN SHAWN MONTPETIT'S REPORTS
IN WHICH THERE WERE SEVERAL DOZEN REFERENCE SAMPLES
r 12
13
TAKEN, CORRECT?
A. YES, WE WERE.
r 14
15
Q. SO YOU ACTUALLY HAD THE NUMBERS OF THOSE
PEOPLE'S DNA PROFILES IN THAT REPORT, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND YOU DIDN'T BOTHER TO LOOK TO SEE IF MAYBE
r 18 SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE AS CONSISTENT AS MR. LOPEZ
r 19
20
TOO?
A. POINT MADE.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE WE WERE ASKED TO LOOK AT THESE.
r 23
24
Q. SO YOU HAVE AN UNKNOWN CONTRIBUTOR, EVEN BY
YOUR OWN OPINION, AND YOU DON'T DO ANYTHING TO FIND OUT
r 25
26
IF IT MIGHT BE ONE OF THOSE OTHER PEOPLE?
A. I THINK IT WOULD BE WORTHWHILE.
r 27 Q. YET YOU DIDN'T DO IT.
r 28 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
r
2386
1
l
1 Q. THESE NUMBERS, DOCTOR -- YOU WROTE A PAPER
2 OR THERE'S A PAPER ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR LABORATORY l

3 CALLED THE LAWYER'S GUIDE TO FORENSIC STATISTICS, ~
4 CORRECT?
)
A. YES, I BELIEVE SO.
5
6 Q. WHICH YOU DISCUSS RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY, AS

l
7
8
WELL AS THE LIKELIHOOD RATIO, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
l
9 Q. FOR RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY, THERE'S TWO l
10 THINGS CALLED "THE PROSECUTOR'S FALLACY" AS WELL AS
11 "DEFENSE ATTORNEY'S FALLACY," CORRECT? l

12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. IN THE PROSECUTOR'S FALLACY, IT'S STATED -- "IN l

14
15
THE PROSECUTOR'S FALLACY, THE LANGUAGE AND MEANING OF A
RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY IS SWITCHED. FOR EXAMPLE, FROM

l
16 A RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY RESULT OF 1 IN 10,000, A
l
17 PROSECUTOR MIGHT SAY THAT THERE IS ONLY A 1 IN 10,000
18 CHANCE THAT A DNA PROFILE CAME FROM SOMEBODY ELSE OR l

19 THAT THERE IS A 1 IN 10,000 CHANCE THAT THE DEFENDANT IS
20 NOT GUILTY." l
21 YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LANGUAGE, CORRECT? 1
J
22 A. I DO.
23
24
Q. THE FLIP SIDE, THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY'S FALLACY,
WHICH IS, "IN THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY'S FALLACY, THE

l
25 ASSUMPTION IS MADE THAT EVERYONE ELSE WITH THE SAME l
26 GENOTYPE HAS THE SAME" -- EXCUSE ME -- "HAS AN EQUAL
27 CHANCE OF COMMITTING THE CRIME. MOTIVE, ACCESS TO THE l
28 CRIME SCENE AND LEGITIMATE ALIBIS ARE ALL IMPORTANT
l
l
r 2387
r 1 CONSIDERATIONS WHEN PUTTING THE DNA EVIDENCE INTO
r 2 PERSPECTIVE."
r
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. OVERALL, THOUGH, CORRECTLY STATED, THE
r 5
6
PROBABILITY OF SELECTING THE OBSERVED DNA PROFILE FROM A
POPULATION OF RANDOM UNRELATED INDIVIDUALS IS 1 IN
r 7
8
10,000.
A.
THAT'S ALL THE STATISTIC MEANS, RIGHT?
RIGHT.
r 9 Q. IT DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ALL THESE OTHER
r 10
11
THINGS, SUCH AS WHO WAS THERE, WHO WAS NOT.
A. IT'S ONLY LOOKING AT THE DNA EVIDENCE AS IT
r 12
13
STANDS, AND IT'S SAYING, "WHAT IS THE PROBABILITY OF A
RANDOM INDIVIDUAL?"
r 14
15
Q. YET IN THIS CASE YOU WERE ASKED TO COMPARE YOUR
OWN DNA TO THESE GLOVES, CORRECT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
I WAS ASKED TO DO THAT, YES.
WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THAT?
r 18 A. I WOULD SAY THE PURPOSE WAS TO JUST FIND OUT
r 19
20
HOW I MATCHED.
Q. IN AN ATTEMPT TO SHOW THAT MAYBE YOU COULD ALSO
21 MATCH THIS PROFILE?
22 A. CERTAINLY. I MEAN THE STATEMENT WAS THAT IT
r 23
24
WAS 1 OUT OF 1,700 CAUCASIANS.
Q. AND YOU DID THIS, RIGHT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
I DID DO THIS.
YET THAT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING YOU WROTE IN
r 27 THE LAWYER'S GUIDE TO FORENSIC STATISTICS.
r 28 A. I DON'T SEE HOW YOU'RE GETTING THAT.
r
2388
1
l
1 Q. DID YOU HAVE AN EQUAL CHANCE TO PUT YOUR DNA IN
2 THE GLOVES? l
3 A. NO.
4 Q. YOU WERE IN PHOENIX AT THE TIME, SO THAT WOULD l

5
6
BE A PRETTY LEGITIMATE ALIBI, RIGHT?
A. YES.
l
7 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY MOTIVE, CORRECT?
l
8 A. NO.
9 Q. SO YOUR CHANCES OF YOUR DNA BEING IN THE GLOVES l

10 ARE ACTUALLY ZERO.
11 A. CORRECT. l
12 Q. I MEAN, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED THEM, RIGHT?
13 A. CORRECT.
l
14
15
Q. SO WHY WOULD WE CARE WHETHER OR NOT YOUR DNA
MAY BE SIMILAR TO THE MIXTURE?

l
16 A. I THINK THE POINT WAS THAT ALMOST EVERYONE'S
l
17 DNA WOULD BE SIMILAR TO THE MIXTURE.
18 Q. EXCEPT YOURS WASN'T. IT WAS MISSING ONE l

19 ALLELE.
20 A. CORRECT. IT WAS NOT EXCLUDED. l

21
22
Q. SO, AGAIN, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT SUCH AN
EXERCISE WOULD BE MISLEADING ACCORDING TO WHAT THE

l
23
24
LAWYER'S GUIDE TO FORENSIC STATISTICS STATES?
A. I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND WHY.
l
25 Q. SURE. YOU'VE STATED THAT UNDER THE DEFENSE l
26 ATTORNEY'S FALLACY, YOU CAN'T JUST LOOK AT THE NUMBERS
27 AND SAY THAT EVERYONE HAS AN EQUAL CHANCE AT COMMITTING l
28 THE CRIME, RIGHT?
l
l
r 2389
r 1 A. CORRECT.
r 2 Q. I MEAN, YOU HAD NO CHANCE TO COMMIT THE CRIME.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
YET THE DEFENSE ASKED YOU TO PUT YOUR NUMBERS
r 5
6
AND DNA INTO THESE GLOVES.
A. BUT THEY'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT I AM ONE OF THE
r 7
8
PEOPLE WHO DID IT.
MATCHED, THAT'S ALL.

WE WERE SIMPLY LOOKING AT IF MINE
WE'RE NOT DOING A FALLACY. IT
r 9 WOULD BE DIFFERENT.
r 10
11
Q. YET THERE IS NO CHANCE OF YOUR DNA BEING IN
THERE, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
BUT THEY ASKED YOU TO DO A RECOMMENDATION OR
r 14
15
ANALYSIS TO SEE IF IT WAS.
A. I ACTUALLY DECIDED TO DO THAT MYSELF.
r 16
17
Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW THIS IS IMPROPER ACCORDING
TO HOW YOU'VE LAID OUT RANDOM MATCH PROBABILITY?
r 18 A. I DON'T SEE IT AS BEING IMPROPER, AND I DON'T
r 19
20
SEE
THE COURT: LET'S MOVE ON, PLEASE.
r 21
22
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. OF ALL THE ITEMS IN THIS CASE THAT YOU REVIEWED
r 23
24
IN TERMS OF MR. MONTPETIT'S REPORT, THE ONLY ONE YOU
TESTED WAS A T-SHIRT.
r 25
26
A.
Q.
WE RETESTED THAT, CORRECT.
WHY NOT THE GLOVES?

r 28 SPECULATION.
r
2390
,
l
2 BY MR. TROCHA: l
3 Q. WERE YOU ASKED TO RETEST THE GLOVES?
4 A. NO. l
5
6
Q. WHY NOT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION
l
7
8
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SUSTAINED.
l
9 Q. YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO THOSE GLOVES, THOUGH, l
10 CORRECT, IN TERMS OF THE RELEVANCE TO THIS TRIAL; DO YOU
11 NOT? l
12 A. I'M NOT SURE. THAT SEEMS A LITTLE VAGUE TO ME
13 AS TO WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ASK, SO MAYBE YOU COULD
l
14
15
RESTATE THAT.
Q. YOU THINK THE GLOVES ARE THE MOST INCULPATORY
l
16 PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THIS TRIAL.
l
17 A. I DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE WHAT THE OTHER
18 EVIDENCE IS. THERE'S NO WAY I COULD MAKE THAT l
19 DETERMINATION.
l
20
21
22
Q. WELL, YOU WERE ASKED AGAIN ON OCTOBER 20, 2010,
PAGE 3531, STARTING AT LINE 26 -- MR. SPEREDELOZZI WAS
ASKING YOU:
,
j
23
24
"WHEN I CONTACTED CHROMOSOMAL LABORATORIES, DID
I INDICATE ANY SPECIFIC PIECES OF EVIDENCE THAT I WANTED
l
25 YOU TO LOOK AT MORE CLOSELY THAN ANOTHER PIECE OF l
26 EVIDENCE?"
27 YOUR RESPONSE AT 3532 WAS, "NO. WE HAD ALREADY l
28 IDENTIFIED THE MOST INCULPATORY AT THAT POINT."
l
,
r 2391
r 1 A. INCULPATORY FROM A DNA STANDPOINT.
r 2 Q. SO THE GLOVES ARE THE MOST INCULPATORY PIECE OF
r 3
4
EVIDENCE, IN YOUR OPINION, IN THE DNA STANDPOINT?
A. FROM THE DNA STANDPOINT, YES.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
AND YOU NEVER RETESTED THEM.
NO.
r 7
8
Q. WHY NOT?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION.
r 9
10
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
SUSTAINED.
r 11 Q. YOU COME IN TODAY CRITICIZING MR. MONTPETIT FOR
r 12
13
LACK OF REPRODUCIBILITY. YOU DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS
NECESSARY TO SEE IF YOU COULD REPRODUCE HIS OWN
r 14
15
FINDINGS?
r 16
17
THE COURT: BASIS?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: RELEVANCE.
r 19
20
THE WITNESS:
YOUR QUESTION?
I'M SORRY. WOULD YOU RESTATE
r 21
22
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. YOU CAME IN TODAY AND CRITICIZED MR. MONTPETIT
r 23
24
FOR LACK OF REPRODUCIBILITY ON THESE GLOVES.
WANT TO SEE IF YOU COULD REPRODUCE HIS FINDINGS?
YOU DIDN'T
r 25
26
A.
RESULTS.
HE WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR REPRODUCING HIS
r 27 Q. WELL, YOU'RE HERE CRITICIZING HIS RESULTS,
r 28 SPECIFICALLY ON THE POINT OF LACK OF REPRODUCIBILITY.
r
2392
1
l
1 WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE IF YOU COULD REPRODUCE HIS
2 RESULTS? l
3 A. I ACTUALLY THINK MY CRITICISM WAS MORE ALONG
4 THE STATISTICAL TREATISE THAN IT WAS ON REPRODUCIBILITY. l
5
6
Q. SO ARE YOU SAYING THE SCIENCE AND THE ANALYSIS
AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT INTO GETTING THOSE ALLELES IS
l
7 FINE?
A. I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.
l
8
9 Q. YOU'RE SAYING THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. l

10 A. I AGREE WITH THAT.
11 Q. SO WHEN WE GOT INTO REPRODUCIBILITY, THAT WOULD l
12 BE IRRELEVANT IN TERMS OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY FOUND IN THE
13 GLOVES.
l
A. NO. YOU'RE MAKING KIND OF A BROAD STATEMENT. ~
14
1
15 IN POINT OF FACT, THE REPRODUCIBILITY BECOMES IMPORTANT
16 IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE, AND BEYOND THAT IT HAS TO BE l
17 SHOWN TO HAVE REPRODUCIBILITY THERE, AND THEN YOU ALSO
18 STILL HAVE TO TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT WHEN YOU DO THE l
19 STATISTICAL TREATISE.
20 Q. SO HELP ME HERE. IF YOU'RE SAYING THERE'S A l
21 PROBLEM WITH THINGS FALLING IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE IN
22 TERMS OF REPRODUCIBILITY, THAT WOULD BE AN AREA YOU
l
23 MIGHT WANT TO INVESTIGATE AS A SCIENTIST TO SEE IF IT 1 J
24 COULD BE REPRODUCED, CORRECT?

25 A. WE DON'T USE THE EXACT SAME PROCEDURE -- I l
26 MEAN, WE FOLLOW THE SAME BASIC CHEMISTRIES, BUT WE DON'T
27 USE THE EXACT SAME PROTOCOLS AS THEY DO. I WOULD NOT l
28 NECESSARILY BE ABLE TO REPRODUCE IT.
l
l
r 2393
r 1 IF IT CAME BACK AS A NEGATIVE REPRODUCIBILITY,
r 2 WHAT WOULD THAT TELL ME? WOULD THAT TELL ME THAT OUR
3 SYSTEM WAS DIFFERENT? MAYBE.
r 4 SO REPRODUCIBILITY IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF THIS.
r 5
6
AND HOW YOU TREAT THOSE PEAKS IN THE STOCHASTIC RANGE IS
QUITE DIFFERENT AND HOW YOU DO MIXTURE ANALYSIS IS QUITE
r 7
8
DIFFERENT.
Q. SO YOU'RE BASICALLY HERE TO SAY YOU HAVE A
r 9 DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF WHAT SHAWN MONTPETIT FOUND.
r 10
11
A. I THINK WE NEED TO NARROW THAT DOWN TO THE
STATISTICAL TREATISE OF IT.
12 Q. WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT REPRODUCIBILITY,

r 13 DOCTOR, IF, FROM WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, NOTHING COULD EVER
r 14
15
BE REPRODUCED?
A. I DIDN'T SAY IT COULDN'T BE REPRODUCED.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WELL, IF YOU CAN'T DO IT, WHO COULD?
I'M SAYING THAT --
r 18
19
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
VAGUE.
[ 20 THE WITNESS: I'M SAYING THAT THE
r 21
22
REPRODUCIBILITY DOES NOT HAVE TO GO FROM LAB TO LAB,
FIRST OF ALL, AND SECOND OF ALL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE
r 23
24
MIXTURE INTERPRETATION GUIDELINES AS BEING SET FORTH BY
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY -- NATIONAL AND
r 25
26
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY-- THAT THERE'S A WAY THAT
THEY'RE SUGGESTING IT BE TREATED, AND THAT WAS NOT
r 27 EMPLOYED HERE.
r 28 Ill
r
2394
l
l
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2 Q. YOUR VIEW IS ONE SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT OF THIS l
3 INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, CORRECT?
4 A. IT'S BACKED UP BY THE LITERATURE. l
5 Q. SHAWN MONTPETIT IS BACKED UP AS WELL ON THE
6 OTHER FLIP SIDE OF HOW TO INTERPRET MIXTURES, CORRECT?
l
7
8
A. I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY LITERATURE THAT UTILIZES
HIS METHOD.
l
l
9
10
11
Q. SO FROM THE LITERATURE YOU FOUND BRUCE
BUDOWLE'S ARTICLE, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
, J
12 Q. AN ARTICLE WRITTEN BY A GUY IN CROATIA?

13 A. CORRECT, ISFG.
l
14
15
Q. AND AN ARTICLE ABOUT HOW TO MAKE SYNTHETIC
GLOVES IN INDIA.
l
16 A. THOSE ARE THE ONES I GAVE YOU. THERE ARE A LOT
l
17 OF OTHER REFERENCES OUT THERE.
18 Q. WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO SHOW US THE ONES THAT BACK l
19 YOUR ARGUMENTS SIGNIFICANTLY OTHER THAN MR. BUDOWLE'S?
20 A. NO, BECAUSE HIS REPRESENTS WHAT'S BEING PUT l
21 FORTH BY THE ISFG, WHICH IS THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY
22 FOR FORENSIC GENETICS.
l
23
24
Q. AND SHAWN MONTPETIT'S VIEW IS BACKED UP BY
ANOTHER SCHOOL OF THOUGHT, CORRECT?
l
25 A. NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF. l
26 Q. SO WHY DIDN'T YOU RETEST THE GLOVES TO SHOW ANY
27 REPRODUCIBILITY? l
l
l
r 2395
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. IF REPRODUCIBILITY IS SO IMPORTANT, WHY DIDN'T
YOU MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO REPRODUCE THEM?
r 5
6 QUESTION.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. IT'S THE SAME
r 7
8 PLEASE.
THE COURT: IT IS. SUSTAINED. LET'S MOVE ON,
r 9 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 10
11
Q.
A.
THESE GLOVES -- YOU'VE NEVER TOUCHED THEM.
CORRECT.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
YOU'VE ONLY SEEN THEM ONCE IN COURT.
I'M NOT SURE I EVEN SAW THEM LAST TIME. I
r 14
15
MIGHT HAVE.
Q.
I DON'T RECALL.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT'S KNOWN AS THE
r 16
17
SCIENTIFIC METHOD?
r
A. YES.
18 Q. WHAT IS IT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
HOW LONG OF A TREATISE DO YOU WANT?
IN A NUTSHELL IT'S BASICALLY YOU HAVE A
r 21
22
HYPOTHESIS, YOU DO EXPERIMENTS TO SEE IF THE HYPOTHESIS
IS TRUE OR FALSE, AND FROM THE DATA YOU RECEIVE FROM
r 23
24
THESE EXPERIMENTS, YOU RENDER A CONCLUSION, CORRECT?
A. CORRECT.
r 25 Q. IN THIS CASE YOU HAVE A HYPOTHESIS ABOUT WHO IS
r
26 AND WHO IS NOT IN THE MIXTURE OF GLOVES, CORRECT?
27 A. NO. INCORRECT.
r 28 Q. YOU DON'T?
r
2396
l
l
1 A. NO. IT'S INCONCLUSIVE. THAT DOESN'T MEAN I
2 HAVE A -- I'M NOT TENDERING A CONCLUSION AS TO WHO IS OR 1

3 WHO IS NOT IN THE GLOVES.
4 Q. YOUR CONCLUSION IS THAT IT'S INCONCLUSIVE. 1

A. THAT'S SIMPLY STATING THAT I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH
5
6 DATA TO DERIVE USING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

1
7
8
Q. AND YOU DIDN'T ATTEMPT TO GET MORE DATA?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. SAME QUESTION AS

l
9 BEFORE. l
10 THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION. MORE DATA
11 IN WHAT WAY? l
12 BY MR. TROCHA:
13 Q. YOU COULDN'T GET MORE DATA IN TERMS OF MIXTURES

l
14
15
WITHIN THOSE GLOVES?
A. I DID NOT TEST THE GLOVES.

1
16 Q. COULD WE REPRODUCE YOUR OPINION AS TO THE
l
17 GLOVES?
18 A. I'M SORRY. WHICH OPINION IS THAT? 1

19 Q. THAT IT'S INCONCLUSIVE AS TO WHO'S CONTRIBUTING
20 TO THE GLOVES. l
21 A. ACTUALLY, I BELIEVE THAT'S BEEN REPRODUCED, TO
22 SOME EXTENT, WITH VARYING AMOUNTS OF DATA SUGGESTING

l
23
24
MORE AND MORE COMPLEXITY, BY THE SAN DIEGO POLICE
DEPARTMENT.
1
25 Q. SO SHAWN MONTPETIT DID DO REPRODUCIBILITY l
26 TESTS.
27 A. TO SOME EXTENT. AND IT CERTAINLY SHOWS, WHICH l

28 ALSO VERIFIES, THE PROBLEM WITH THE REPRODUCIBILITY. IN
l
1
r 2397
r 1 FACT, HE WASN'T ABLE TO REPRODUCE THE EXACT SAME
r 2 RESPONSES EACH TIME. EACH TIME HE GOT SOMETHING
r 3
4
DIFFERENT; EACH TIME HE GOT MORE.
Q. BECAUSE HE DID TESTS OF TWO DIFFERENT LOCATIONS
r 5
6
ON THE GLOVES, CORRECT, DOCTOR?
A. SO HOW WOULD I DO THIS? HOW WOULD I DO
r 7
8
REPRODUCIBILITY? YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS STATES THAT I
COULDN'T RETEST THE SAME AREA, SO I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO
r 9
10
GET REPRODUCIBILITY THERE.
Q. COULDN'T YOU ASK FOR THE SAMPLE OR A PIECE OF

r 11 THE SWAB THAT'S RETAINED SPECIFICALLY FOR DEFENSE
r 12
13
INVESTIGATORS AND DEFENSE EXPERTS TO DO RETESTING AND
REPRODUCIBILITY TESTS UPON?
r 14
15
A. THE POINT WOULD BE IS THAT EVEN IF I GOT THE
SAME THING, I WOULD STILL COME UP WITH THE SAME
r 16
17
CONCLUSION.
Q.
THAT'S
THAT'S THE ASSUMPTION YOU'RE MAKING.
r 18 A. CAN I FINISH MY STATEMENT, SIR?
19 AND THAT IS THAT WITH THAT COMPLEX OF A

r 20 MIXTURE, YOU CAN DEFINITELY COME UP WITH A MAJOR
r 21
22
PROFILE, AND ON THE MINOR PROFILE YOU WOULD COME UP WITH
AN INCONCLUSIVE. I WOULD COME UP WITH THE SAME
r 23
24
CONCLUSION ON MY OWN WORK IF IT WAS REPRODUCED.
Q. THAT'S AN ASSUMPTION YOU'RE MAKING.
r 25 A. I STATED THE ASSUMPTION. THE ASSUMPTION WAS IF
26 I COULD GET THE SAME DATA.
r 27 Q. WHICH YOU EASILY CAN BECAUSE THERE ARE SAMPLES
r 28 MAINTAINED SPECIFICALLY FOR DEFENSE INVESTIGATORS AND
r
2398
1
l
1 DEFENSE EXPERTS TO RETEST, CORRECT?
2 A. USUALLY. I DON'T KNOW. SOMETIMES THEY CONSUME l

3 THEM.
4 Q. DID YOU ASK? l

5
6
A.
Q.
I WASN'T ASKED TO ASK.
HOW MUCH DO YOU MAKE AN HOUR TESTIFYING?

l
7
8
A.
Q.
I DON'T MAKE ANYTHING AN HOUR TESTIFYING.
HOW MUCH IS THE RATE CHROMOSOMAL LABS IS

l
9 GETTING FOR YOU TESTIFYING? l
10 A. 225 AN HOUR.
11 Q. HOW MUCH HAS BEEN PAID TO CHROMOSOMAL l

12 LABORATORIES UP TO THIS POINT ON THIS CASE?
13 A. FOR BOTH TRIALS?

l
14
15
Q.
A.
YES.
I'D HAVE TO TENDER A GUESS. I DON'T REALLY

l
16
17
KNOW BECAUSE I DON'T FOLLOW ACCOUNTING, BUT I'M GUESSING
SOMEWHERE AROUND $10,000.

l
18 Q. THIS INCLUDED YOUR TESTIMONY. l
19 A. CORRECT.
20 Q. IT'S INCLUDED IN THE REVIEW OF THE CASE. l

21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. AND IT INCLUDED YOU ASSISTING THE DEFENSE

l
23
24
ATTORNEY IN CRAFTING CROSS-EXAMINATION AS WELL AS YOUR
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
l
25 A. AS I STATED, I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE ISSUED ANY l
26 QUESTIONS TO THE DEFENSE.
27 Q. ON A MURDER CASE? l
28 THE COURT: IT'S BEEN COVERED, MR. TROCHA.
l
l
r 2399
r 1 MOVE ON.
r 2 MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE
r 3
4
NOTHING FURTHER.
r 5
6
REDIRECT?
r 7
r 9
10
Q.
A.
DR. MILLER, $10,000 IS AN ESTIMATE, RIGHT?
I'M GUESSING BASED ON HOW MANY HOURS I'VE SPENT

r 11 ON THIS.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
DID YOU WORK A COUPLE HOURS ON THIS CASE?
NO.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU PUT IN?
WELL, I'M PROBABLY PUSHING MORE LIKE 100 HOURS
r 16
17
RIGHT NOW ON THIS CASE.
Q. YOU TESTIFIED AT ANOTHER HEARING ON THIS CASE,
r 18 RIGHT?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
YOU WROTE SEVERAL REPORTS.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
YOU TESTED ITEMS THAT WERE SENT TO YOU.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
YOU REVIEWED PAGES AND PAGES OF REPORTS BY THE
r 25 PROSECUTION.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES, I DID.
AND DO YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW MANY HOURS THIS
r 28 TOOK?
r
2400
l
l
1 A. I COULD ONLY VENTURE A GUESS.
2 Q. WHEN YOU DO WORK AT YOUR LAB, CHROMOSOMAL 1
3 LABORATORIES -- THEY'RE NOT A NONPROFIT AGENCY, RIGHT?
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
NO. THEY'RE FOR PROFIT.
YOU GUYS ARE RUNNING A BUSINESS.
CORRECT.
,
l
J
8
Q.
WORK?
SO DO YOU EVER SUGGEST THAT YOU VOLUNTEER YOUR
l
9 A. WELL, ACTUALLY, WE DO. 1
10 Q. NOT IN THIS CASE, THOUGH.
11 A. NOT IN THIS CASE, BUT WE DO HAVE A PRO BONO FOR 1
12 PRO BUSQUEDA, WHICH IS TRYING TO PUT CHILDREN THAT WERE
13 DISENFRANCHISED FROM THEIR FAMILIES IN EL SALVADOR. l
14 Q.
15 A.
YOU HAVE A PH.D.
THAT'S CORRECT.
1
16
17
Q.
A.
AND YOU WENT TO COLLEGE.
YES.
l
18 Q. YOU GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL. l
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOURSELF AS HIGHLY l
21 EDUCATED?
22 A. I THINK, YES.
l
23
24
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT HIGHLY SKILLED?
I WOULD SAY YES.
1
25 Q. DO YOU THINK THAT A PERSON'S EDUCATION LEVEL
l
26 AND SKILL SHOULD BE COMMENSURATE WITH THEIR PAY?
27 A. YES. l
28 Q. YOU SAID YOU BALLPARKED AROUND 10,000 THAT YOU
l
l
r 2401
r 1 GOT PAID, RIGHT?
r 2 A. CORRECT.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
WHEN DID I WRITE YOU A CHECK FOR $10,000?
YOU NEVER WROTE ME A CHECK.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHEN DID MR. DOMINGUEZ SLIP CASH TO YOU?
HE NEVER SLIPPED CASH TO ME.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO PAYS YOU?
SAN DIEGO COUNTY.
r 9 Q. THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO?
r
l
10
11
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT THAT PAYS YOU.
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
HOW DOES THAT WORK?
r 14
15
A. WELL, WE COMPLETE THE PRODUCT AND WE ACTUALLY
SUBMIT A VOUCHER TO SAN DIEGO COUNTY.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
AND THEN THEY CONTACT ME?
CORRECT.
r 18 Q. AND THEN I TELL THEM, YES, HE DID THE WORK?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THEN DO I EVER GET THE MONEY AND THEN I PAY
r 21
22
YOU?
A. NO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
THEY PAY YOU DIRECTLY.
CORRECT.
r 25
26
Q. THE NAME ON THE CHECK, IS IT MY LAW FIRM THAT'S
ON THE CHECK?
r 27 A. NO.
r 28 Q. WHAT'S THE NAME ON THE CHECK?
r
2402
1
1
1 A. SAN DIEGO COUNTY.
2 Q. WHERE WERE YOU LAST WEEK? l

3 A. I WAS IN RIO GRANDE CITY, TEXAS.
4 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING? 1

5
6
A. I WAS TESTIFYING IN A CRIMINAL PATERNITY CASE
FOR A SITUATION WHERE A CHILD WAS MURDERED AFTER BEING

l
7
8
BORN DUE TO AFTER BEING CONCEIVED IN INCEST.
Q. SO YOU MUST HAVE DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB FOR THE

l
9 DEFENSE ATTORNEY YOU WERE TESTIFYING FOR. 1
10 A. I WAS TESTIFYING FOR THE PROSECUTION.
11 Q. YOU WERE TESTIFYING FOR THE PROSECUTION? l

12 A. YES.
13 Q. NOT THE DEFENSE?

1
14
15
A.
Q.
NO.
SO YOU DON'T JUST TESTIFY FOR THE DEFENSE.

l
16
17
A.
Q.
NO.
HOW OFTEN DO YOU TESTIFY FOR THE PROSECUTION?

1
18 A. RIGHT NOW I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT 20 PERCENT OF l
19 OUR TESTIMONY.
20 Q. WHAT STATES ARE THESE? l

21 A. ALL STATES. I'VE TESTIFIED IN ARIZONA,
22 TENNESSEE, TEXAS, AND I WANT TO SAY CALIFORNIA, BUT I

l
23
24
DON'T REMEMBER THE LAST ONE.
Q.
I HAVE TO LOOK ON MY CV.
DOES CHROMOSOMAL LABS CHARGE A DIFFERENT RATE

l
25 FOR PROSECUTION VERSUS DEFENSE? l
26 A. NO. IT'S A STANDARD RATE.
27 Q. IT'S STILL $225 AN HOUR? l
28 A. CORRECT.
l
l
r 2403
r 1 Q. AND IF YOU WORKED AS MANY HOURS FOR THE

[ 2 PROSECUTION ON A CASE AS YOU DID FOR THIS CASE, WOULD
r 3
4
YOUR BILL STILL BE AROUND $10,000?
A. CORRECT.
r
l
5 Q. AND THE CHECKS YOU GET THEN WOULD ALSO BE FROM
6 THE GOVERNMENT, WOULD THEY NOT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOUR DNA
r 9
10
PROFILE IS CONSISTENT WITH THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE.
WHAT POINT DO YOU THINK THAT DEMONSTRATES?
r 11 A. I THINK IT SHOWS THE FALLACY OF TRYING TO DRAW
r 12
13
CONCLUSIONS AS TO ANYONE'S CONTRIBUTION TO SUCH A
COMPLEX MIXTURE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY THE REAL QUESTION
r 14
15
HERE; NOT AS TO IF ONE PERSON IS THERE OR NOT, BUT
RATHER THAT WITH SUCH A COMPLEX MIXTURE, YOU CAN'T DRAW
r 16
17
CONCLUSIONS, WHICH SUPPORTS THE IDEA THAT IT SHOULD
ACTUALLY BE DEEMED INCONCLUSIVE.
r 18 Q. DR. MILLER, YOU WERE ASKED TO TALK ABOUT THIS
r 19
20
ON CROSS: DID YOU EVER SUPPLY ME WITH QUESTIONS FOR
CROSS-EXAMINATION?
21 A. NO.
i 22 Q. DID YOU EVER CONTACT ME AND GIVE ME A BUNCH --
r 23
24
A LIST OF ISSUES THAT I SHOULD ADDRESS DURING
CROSS-EXAMINATION?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT?
r 27 A. BECAUSE YOU NEVER ASKED ME TO. AND, FIRST OF
r 28 ALL, I HAVE DONE THAT FOR OTHER ATTORNEYS THAT HAVE NO
r
2404
1
l
1 KNOWLEDGE OF DNA. IN THE PAST, THEY'VE ASKED FOR
2 SUGGESTED GENERAL AREAS. WE HAVE CERTAINLY SUPPLIED l

THEM WITH GENERAL QUESTIONS.
3
1
4
5
6 Q.
BUT IN YOUR CASE, YOU DIDN'T ASK FOR ANY TYPE
OF SERVICE ALONG THAT LINE.
WHEN DID MY LAW FIRM RETAIN YOU AS AN EXPERT?
,
J
7 A.
Q.
IT'S BEEN ABOUT A YEAR AGO NOW.
NOW, WE RETAINED YOU ORIGINALLY AS A
l
8
9 CONSULTANT, RIGHT? l
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. WHEN YOU'RE RETAINED BY A DEFENSE LAW FIRM FOR l
12 CONSULTING, HOW OFTEN DO YOU ACTUALLY COME TO COURT AND
13 TESTIFY?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
AS A CONSULTANT?
AS AN EXPERT. FIRST YOU'RE HIRED AS A
l
16 CONSULTANT. SOMETIMES YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO TESTIFY.
l
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. WHAT, PERCENTAGE-WISE, IS IT WHEN YOU'RE HIRED l
19 AS A CONSULTANT THAT YOU ACTUALLY COME TO COURT AND
20 TESTIFY? l
21 A. PROBABLY LESS THAN 10 PERCENT OF THE TIME.
22 Q. WHY IS THAT?
l
23
24
A. BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT
DATA FROM LABORATORIES, PROBABLY 80 TO 90 PERCENT OF THE
l
25 TIME WE TELL THEM THAT WE CAN'T FIND ANYTHING THAT'S l
26 WRONG WITH WHAT'S BEEN GENERATED.
27 Q. SO YOU ONLY COME TO TESTIFY WHEN THERE'S A l
28 LEGITIMATE ISSUE ON THE TABLE.
l
l
r
2405
4 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU THIS BOOK THAT PROSECUTION
5 SHOWED YOU. THIS IS CALLED FORENSIC DNA DEFENSE
6 STRATEGIES. YOU PUBLISHED THIS BOOK, RIGHT?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. SHOW ME THE CHAPTER IN THAT BOOK WHERE IT SAYS
9 YOU SHOULD HIRE A DNA EXPERT THAT MATCHES UP WITH THE

10 PROSECUTION'S EVIDENCE.
11 A. THERE IS NO SUCH CHAPTER.
12 Q. THAT'S NOT IN THE BOOK?

13 A. NO.
14 Q. TELL ME, DOCTOR, WHEN DID YOU GIVE ME A COPY OF

15 THIS BOOK?
16 A. AFTER IT WAS REQUESTED BY THE PROSECUTION.

18 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS FEBRUARY OF THIS YEAR.
19 Q. FEBRUARY 2011?
20 A. I BELIEVE THAT'S CORRECT.

21 Q. BUT WE HIRED YOU, WHAT, JUNE LAST YEAR? MAY?
22 A. SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
23 Q. AND I DIDN'T REQUEST THAT BOOK FROM YOU?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY FOR US IN OCTOBER?
26 A. YES, I DID.
27 Q. I DIDN'T HAVE A COPY OF THAT BOOK BEFORE YOU

28 TESTIFIED?
2406
1 A. NO, YOU DID NOT.

2 Q. WHEN HAVE WE SAT DOWN TOGETHER IN A ROOM,
3 DRINKING COFFEE, AND DISCUSSED THE CONTENTS OF THIS ~
I
4 MANUAL?
5 A. WE NEVER HAVE.
6 Q. WE'VE NEVER DISCUSSED THE CONTENTS OF THIS
7 MANUAL?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE T-SHIRT YOU TESTED,
10 RIGHT?
11 A. CORRECT.
12 Q. YOU USED A PROCESS CALLED MINI-FILER?
13 A. CORRECT.
14 Q. YOU DON'T USE ALL 16 LOCI?
15 A. IT'S NOT INCLUDED IN THE CHEMISTRY, THAT'S
16 CORRECT.
17 Q. AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S A DEGRADED SAMPLE?
18 A. CORRECT.
19 Q. WHO ELSE USES THIS TECHNIQUE?
20 A. IT'S USED THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES. I
21 DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFIC AGENCIES, BUT IT'S ACCEPTED BY
22 THE FBI AND
23 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF
24 INVESTIGATION USES THIS?
25 A. YES, THEY DO.
26 Q. TALKING ABOUT USING ONLY EIGHT LOCI OR NINE
27 LOCI, THAT WOULD MEAN THAT YOU'RE NOT USING SIX LOCI
28 THAT ARE GENERALLY IN CODIS, RIGHT?
r
2407
1 A. WELL, CODIS ACTUALLY ONLY DEMANDS THAT YOU HAVE
2 NINE LOCI. SO YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE MORE
3 INFORMATION THAN COULD BE GENERATED FROM THIS ONE BY
4 ITSELF. BUT WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO IS THAT THEY ACCEPT
5 ANYTHING OVER NINE LOCI -- OR 10 LOCI NOW -- INTO THEIR
6 DATABASE. SO THEY DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE ALL 13.
7 Q. WELL, DOCTOR, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: HOW MANY
8 LOCI IS IN A PERSON'S DNA?
9 A. MILLIONS.
10 Q. MILLIONS OF LOCI?
11 A. YEAH. IT'S ESTIMATED THE SHORT TANDEM REPEATS

~ 12 IS SOMEWHERE AROUND 100,000, WHICH IS THE TECHNOLOGY
i
13 THAT WE'RE UTILIZING RIGHT NOW.
14 IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OTHER TYPES OF LOCI,
15 THERE'S THREE BILLION NUCLEOTIDES, AND IF YOU DIVIDE IT
16 BY 100, YOU HAVE A TYPICAL -- YOU KNOW, AT BEST, YOU

17 HAVE AT LEAST THAT MANY LOCI, IF NOT MORE THAN THAT. SO
18 YOU'RE PUSHING SOMEWHERE IN THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS TO

19 BILLIONS.
20 Q. SO WHEN TESTING IS DONE ON 16 LOCI, YOU'RE
21 ACTUALLY NOT SEEING THE OTHER MILLION OR SO LOCI,
22 RIGHT?
23 A. CORRECT.
24 Q. YOU'RE ONLY SEEING THE 16 THAT ARE PICKED OUT

25 BY CODIS.
26 A. CORRECT. WELL, ACTUALLY, CODIS ONLY HAS 13, SO
27 THEY DON'T USE THE 16.
28 Q. THE FACTS OF THIS CASE -- WHAT WITNESSES HAVE

2408
~
I
1 SAID, WHAT THEY HAVE NOT SAID, THINGS OF THAT NATURE --

2 YOU DIDN'T REVIEW ANY OF THAT.
3 A. NO.
4 Q. WHY?
5 A. BECAUSE WE'RE A DNA LAB. WE ONLY DO DNA WORK.
6 Q. YOU DON'T REVIEW THE POLICE REPORTS AND GIVE ME
7 ADVICE ON HOW TO PRESENT MY CASE?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. IF I ASKED YOU THIS, DR. MILLER, WOULD YOU SAY
10 THAT YOU'RE PAID FOR YOUR TIME ON A CASE?
11 A. MY COMPANY IS PAID FOR MY TIME ON A CASE, YES.
12 Q. CHROMOSOMAL LABS.
13 A. YES.
14 Q. AND THEN THEY PAY YOU A SALARY.
15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. YOU OWN THE COMPANY, THOUGH. YOU'RE A
17 SHAREHOLDER.
18 A. I'M A VERY SMALL SHAREHOLDER, YES.
19 Q. SO DO YOU EVER CONSIDER THAT YOU'RE BEING PAID
20 FOR YOUR OPINION?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. IT'S TIME.
25 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, ANYTHING FURTHER?
26 MR. TROCHA: LET ME JUST CLEAR UP ONE POINT.
27 Ill
28 Ill
r
i
2409
2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. WHEN YOU COME UP WITH THE NINE LOCI AND THE
4 16 LOCI WITH THE DIFFERENT TESTS, THE NINE LOCI FROM
5 THIS DEGRADED TEST ARE INCLUDED IN THE 16 LOCI FOR THE
6 OTHER TESTS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, CORRECT?
9 THE COURT: MAY DR. MILLER BE EXCUSED?
11 MR. TROCHA: YES.
12 THE COURT: SIR, THANK YOU FOR ATTENDING COURT.
13 YOU'RE FREE TO LEAVE. GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.
14 INQUIRING OF BOTH COUNSEL, WAS THERE AN ISSUE
15 THAT WE DISCUSSED ABOUT CALLING A PEOPLE'S WITNESS OUT
16 OF ORDER?
17 MR. TROCHA: YES. IT WAS DETECTIVE GASCA.

18 SHE'S PRESENT.
19 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT'S COUNSEL'S

20 PREFERENCE HERE?
21 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I HAVE TWO WITNESSES THAT I
22 HAVE WAITING, SO I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THEM ARE VERY

23 LONG. I DON'T MIND.
24 THE COURT: DETECTIVE GASCA IS NOT AVAILABLE ON

25 WEDNESDAY; IS THAT CORRECT?
~
I
27 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: HOW LONG IS SHE GOING TO BE?
28 BECAUSE I INVITED A WITNESS FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT
2410
1 TO BE HERE.
2 THE COURT: THAT'S MR. KONG?
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO. THAT'S MR. MONTPETIT.

4 MR. TROCHA: WE CAN DO MR. MONTPETIT, THEN
5 MS. GASCA.
6 THE COURT: LET'S DO MS. GASCA FIRST.
7 EXPERIENCE SHOWS DNA WITNESSES TAKE A LOT LONGER THAN
8 COUNSEL'S OPTIMISTIC ESTIMATES WOULD SUGGEST.
9 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, DRAW SOME

10 DOUBLE LINES ON YOUR NOTES. WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE
11 PEOPLE'S CASE FOR SOME FURTHER TESTIMONY FROM DETECTIVE
12 GASCA.
13 DETECTIVE GASCA, THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON.
14 YOU'RE STILL UNDER OATH, OF COURSE. THANK YOU FOR BEING
15 HERE.
16 THE WITNESS: NO PROBLEM.
17 THE COURT: THIS IS FURTHER DIRECT; IS THAT
18 CORRECT?
19 MR. TROCHA: IT WOULD TECHNICALLY BE REBUTTAL,
20 BUT WE CAN CALL IT FURTHER DIRECT.
21 THE COURT: RIGHT. SHE'S BEING CALLED BY THE
22 PEOPLE.
23 MR. TROCHA: YES.

24 MARTHA GASCA,

26 SWORN, TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
27 Ill
28 Ill
r
I
2411
1 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION

r:'MI
I
I 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
3 Q. DETECTIVE, WELCOME BACK.
5 Q. I ASKED YOU TO DO SEVERAL GANG DOCUMENTATION
6 REPORTS ON A VARIETY OF PEOPLE; IS THAT CORRECT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO DO THOSE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. LET'S START WITH THE FIRST ONE.
11 DID YOU DO A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON A

fiR 12 PERSON BY THE NAME OF RANDY BARNES?
!
13 A. YES, I DID.
15 A. I FIND SERIES OF CONTACTS, POLICE CONTACTS,
16 WHERE MR. RANDY BARNES WAS ASSOCIATING WITH OTHER GANG
17 MEMBERS.
18 Q. WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THE EARLIEST CONTACT?
19 A. THE EARLIEST CONTACT -- CAN I LOOK ON MY REPORT
20 TO FRESH MY MEMORY?
21 Q. DO YOU HAVE THEM WITH YOU?
22 A. YES, I DO.
23 Q. IF YOU CAN DO SO, WE'LL GO THROUGH THEM.
24 A. THE LATEST CONTACT I FOUND IS IN OCTOBER 11,

25 2010.
26 Q. WHAT DATE WAS THE FIRST CONTACT?
27 A. JUNE 18, 1996.
28 Q. THESE CONTACTS INCLUDE ASSOCIATION?

2412
1 A. YES.
2 Q. SELF-ADMISSION?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. COMMITTING CRIMES ON BEHALF OF THE GANG?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. FREQUENTING AREAS WHERE KNOWN GANG FREQUENTS?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. IN 2010, HOW MANY TIMES DID MR. BARNES MEET THE
9 CRITERIA UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE?
10 A. IN THAT SPECIFIC CONTACT OR UP TO 2010?
11 Q. IN ALL OF 2010, HOW MANY CONTACTS WERE
12 DOCUMENTED WHERE HE MET THE CRITERIA?
13 A. OH, FOUR -- THREE. THREE. I'M SORRY. ONE
14 WHERE HE THE LATEST ONE HE SAYS HE DOES -- NO LONGER
15 ASSOCIATES. AND THE THREE PREVIOUS, HE DID HAVE A
16 CRITERIA.
17 Q. IN 2009, HOW MANY CONTACTS DID HE HAVE WHERE HE
18 MET THE CRITERIA?
19 A. FOUR.
20 Q. IN 2007, DID HE HAVE ANY CONTACTS THAT MET THE
21 CRITERIA?
22 A. HE HAS THREE, AND TWO WHERE HE HAS CRITERIA.
23 Q. MOVING ON, DID YOU ALSO DO A GANG DOCUMENTATION
24 REPORT ON AN EVELYN SOTO?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. AFTER REVIEW OF -- FINISHING WITH RANDY BARNES,
27 IS RANDY BARNES A DOCUMENTED SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET GANG
28 MEMBER?
r 2413
1 A. YES.
r 2 Q. NOW, WITH MS. EVELYN SOTO -- IS MS. SOTO A
3 DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
4 A. SHE IS NOT DOCUMENTED. I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF
r 5
6
DOCUMENTING HER, AND I BELIEVE SHE IS STILL NOT
DOCUMENTED.
7 Q. IN TERMS OF THE GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT, HAS
8 SHE MET THE CRITERIA ON ANY OCCASION UNDER THE
~
I
9 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOR DOCUMENTATION?
10 A. YES.
il 11 Q. HOW MANY TIMES?
F' 12 A. SEVERAL TIMES. AND JUST IN ONE OCCASION THAT I

!
13 HAD ARRESTED HER, SHE MET THE THREE CRITERIA.
i 14 Q. GIVEN MS. SOTO'S CONTACTS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT,

15 IS SHE DOCUMENTABLE?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. SHE JUST HASN'T BEEN DOCUMENTED TO DATE?
18 A. CORRECT.
19 Q. THESE CONTACTS, THEY RANGE FROM JANUARY 2011 TO
20 APRIL OF 2006?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WITH THE MAJORITY, BEING THREE OF THEM, ALL
23 OCCURRING IN 2009?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. THESE ARE ASSOCIATION?
26 A. ASSOCIATION; ADMITTING THAT SHE WAS SHELLTOWN
27 38; AND BEING INVOLVED IN A GANG-RELATED CRIME.
28 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT RAUL AGUILAR.
2414
, J
9
I
I
1 DID YOU DO A DOCUMENTATION FOR RAUL AGUILAR?

Pl'1
I
2 A. YES, I DID. !
3 Q. IS RAUL AGUILAR A DOCUMENTED MEMBER OF ANY ~

I
4 STREET GANG?
5 A. YES. WITH SHELLTOWN 38TH.
6
7
Q.
A.
WHEN WAS HIS FIRST CONTACT?
THAT I HAVE IN DOCUMENT IS MAY 12, 2008.
, i
1
8 Q. WHEN WAS HIS MOST RECENT CONTACT?

9 A. FEBRUARY 14, 2011.
10 Q. HOW MANY CONTACTS DID HE HAVE IN 2008 WHERE HE
11 MET THE CRITERIA?
12 A. EIGHT -- HE HAS EIGHT CONTACTS. I DON'T KNOW
13 IF IN EVERY SINGLE ONE HE DOES HAVE CRITERIA, BUT HE
14 DOES HAVE EIGHT CONTACTS.
15 Q. WOULD IT HELP YOU TO SCAN TO SEE IF THERE IS
16 SOME AREA WHERE HE DOESN'T MEET THE CRITERIA?
17 A. CORRECT.
18 THERE IS ONE WHERE HE DID NOT MEET THAT
19 CRITERIA. ~
20 Q. THE REST OF THE CRITERIA, ARE THESE

21 ASSOCIATION?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. CLAIMING?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. FREQUENTING AREAS OF 38TH STREET?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. TAGGING?
28 A. YES.
r 2415
r 1 Q. IN 2009, DID HE HAVE ANY CONTACTS WHERE HE MET
r 2 THE CRITERIA?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. HOW MANY?
A. FOUR.
i
I
5
6 Q. HE ALSO HAS TWO ADDITIONAL CONTACTS IN 2010?

7 A. YES.
8 Q. AS WELL AS THE ONE WE MENTIONED FROM 2011?
9 A. CORRECT.
r 10
11
Q. DID YOU DO A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON
CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
IS CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ A DOCUMENTED GANG
r 14
15
MEMBER?
A. YES.
j 16 Q. THE GANG?
17 A. SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET.
18 Q. WHAT WAS THE DATE OF HIS FIRST CONTACT?
19 A. 2007.
20 Q. APRIL 2007?
21 A. YES, CORRECT.
22 Q. WHAT IS THE DATE OF HIS MOST RECENT CONTACT?
23 A. OCTOBER 26, 2010.
24 Q. IN 2010 ALONE, HOW MANY CONTACTS HAS

[01
I
25 MR. MARTINEZ HAD WHERE HE MET THE CRITERIA?
26 A. FOUR.
27 Q. DID HE ALSO HAVE SEVERAL CONTACTS IN 2009?
28 A. HE HAS THREE CONTACTS IN 2009.

2416
'i
1 Q. AND IN 2008 DID HE HAVE ANY CONTACTS?
2 A. YES. HE HAS FOUR.
3 Q. A LARGE NUMBER OR A GOOD NUMBER OF THESE ~

I
4 CONTACTS ARE WITH SIRIA FORD, CORRECT?
5 A. CORRECT.
6 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF SIRIA FORD IS HIS GIRLFRIEND?
7 A. YES, I BELIEVE SO, BASED ON --
9 HEARSAY.
11 THE WITNESS: -- BASED ON SOME OF THE DOMESTIC
12 VIOLENCE REPORTS THAT THEY HAVE.
13 BY MR. TROCHA:
14 Q. IN TERMS OF MS. FORD, DID YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT
15 THAT HANGING OUT WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND IN TERMS OF
16 DOCUMENTATION?
17 A. I DID NOT USE ANY OF THOSE.
18 Q. SOME OF THESE WERE WITH SIRIA FORD AND ANOTHER
19 PERSON? ~
20 A. YES.
21 Q. DID YOU ALSO DO A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON
22 A JOSUE GUTIERREZ, ALSO KNOWN AS JOSUE HERNANDEZ?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. IS HE A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHICH GANG?
27 A. SHELLTOWN 38TH.
28 Q. WHEN WAS THE DATE OF HIS FIRST CONTACT?
r 2417
r
1 A. I THINK HIS FIRST CONTACT WAS NOVEMBER 2001.
r 2 I'M SORRY. NOVEMBER 1ST, 2008.
3 Q. WHAT IS THE DATE OF HIS MOST RECENT CONTACT?
4 A. FEBRUARY 3, 2011.
r 5
6
Q. IN 2011, HAS HE HAD MORE THAN ONE CONTACT WHERE
HE MET THE CRITERIA?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY?
i 9 A. HE HAS TWO.
10 Q. IN 2010, HOW MANY CONTACTS DID HE HAVE WHERE HE
r \ 11 MET THE CRITERIA?
12 A. FIVE.
13 Q. IN 2009, DID HE HAVE ANY CONTACTS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW MANY?
i 16 A. OH, I'M SORRY. I MADE A MISTAKE.
17 Q. WHAT IS THE MISTAKE?
18 A. THE MISTAKE IS IT WAS ONE CONTACT HERE IN 2009,
19 AND IT'S NOT IN ORDER, SO I -- HE HAS THREE
20 ADDITIONAL -- FOUR ADDITIONAL CONTACTS IN 2010, AND IN
r'
I
21 2009 HE HAS ONE, TWO, THREE -- FOUR.
22 Q. IN 2008, DID HE HAVE ANY CONTACTS?
23 A. ONE IN 2008.
24 Q. THE NATURE OF THESE CONTACTS, DOES IT INCLUDE
r
I
25 ASSOCIATION?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. SELF-ADMISSION?
28 A. YES.
2418
1 Q. ASSOCIATING WITH OTHER GANG MEMBERS?

2 A. YES.
3 Q. TAGGING?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. FREQUENTING AREAS KNOWN TO BE FREQUENTED BY
7 A. YES.
8 Q. DID HE HAVE ONE WHERE HE SELF-ADMITTED UPON
9 INTAKE AT JAIL?
10 A. HE HAS -- I BELIEVE SO, YES, ON NOVEMBER 12,
11 2010.
12 Q. LASTLY, DETECTIVE GASCA, DID YOU DO A GANG
13 DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON SIRIA FORD?
14 A. I DID.
15 Q. IS SHE A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
16 A. SHE IS NOT.
17 Q. IS SHE DOCUMENTABLE?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WITH WHAT GANG?
20 A. SHELL TOWN 38TH.
21 Q. WHAT IS THE DATE OF HER FIRST CONTACT?
22 A. THAT I COULD GET IN THE RECORDS, IT WAS BACK
23 FROM 2007.
24 Q. AND WHAT WAS THE DATE OF HER MOST RECENT
~
25 CONTACT? I
26 A. DECEMBER 24, 2010. ~
I
27 Q. IN 2010, HOW MANY CONTACTS DID SHE HAVE THAT

28 WERE MEETING THE CRITERIA?
r 2419
r
1 A. WITHOUT COUNTING THE ONES WHERE SHE'S WITH HER
r 2
3
BOYFRIEND WHO WAS DOCUMENTED SHELLTOWN, SHE HAS THE
FOUR.
4 Q. DOES SHE ALSO HAVE CONTACTS FROM 2009?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
ONE OF THOSE IS SIMPLY WITH CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
r 7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. THE OTHER IS WITH CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ AND
9 ANOTHER GANG MEMBER?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
IN 2008, SHE HAD A SINGLE CONTACT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
AND THAT WAS JUST WITH MR. MARTINEZ, CORRECT?
r
\
14 A. CORRECT.
15 Q. SO THE SAME RULES APPLIED BASICALLY FOR
r 16 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ AS WITH SIRIA FORD; IF THEY'RE JUST
17 TOGETHER, THAT DOESN'T REALLY COUNT?
r 18 A. I WOULD NOT COUNT THEM, BECAUSE I KNOW OF THEIR
r 19
20
RELATIONSHIP.
MR. TROCHA: THANK YOU, DETECTIVE GASCA.
I' 21 NOTHING FURTHER.

I
r 23
24
CROSS?
r 25 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION
rm
I 27 Q. DETECTIVE, DID THE PROSECUTOR EVER ASK YOU TO
28 DO A GANG DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON RONALD MARTINEZ?

2420
l
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT?
3 A. RONALD MARTINEZ HAD TWO CONTACTS, I BELIEVE, ~
I
)
4 BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH CRITERIA TO BE DOCUMENTED OR

5 BE CONSIDERED AS A GANG MEMBER.
6 Q. SO HE IS NOT A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
~
7 A. CORRECT. i
!
8 Q. HOW ABOUT ALEXIS LOPEZ?

9 A. ALEXIS LOPEZ, I DID ALSO REVIEW HIS PAPERS, AND
10 HE DID NOT MEET THE CRITERIA TO BE A DOCUMENTED GANG
11 MEMBER.
12 Q. HE LIVES IN SHELLTOWN, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE,
13 CORRECT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. AND HE'S NOT A GANG MEMBER?
16 A. NO. EVEN THOUGH THAT HE DOES HAVE CRITERIA, HE
17 DOESN'T MEET ALL THE CRITERIA. ,., I
18 Q. HOW ABOUT CAROL MARTINEZ?
19 A. CAROL MARTINEZ, I'M NOT SURE IF I DID A GDR ON
20 HER, BUT SHE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH TO DOCUMENT HER,
21 EITHER, AS A GANG MEMBER.
22 Q. SO SHE'S NOT A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
23 A. SHE'S NOT A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER.
24
25
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT CARLOS RIOS?
CARLOS RIOS?
, !
l
26 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THAT NAME BEFORE?
27 A. SOUNDS FAMILIAR, BUT I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING ON
28 HIM LATELY. ~
I
I
r 2421
r
1 Q. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE IN THE PAST?
r
I 2 A. I THINK I HAVE HEARD THE LAST NAME OF RIOS, AND
~
3 I'M NOT QUITE SURE IF IT WAS CARLOS.
I
4 Q. BUT, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, SOMEBODY NAMED CARLOS

{"ii\
5 RIOS, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON HIM AS FAR AS
I 6 F.I. 'S.
r 7 A. NOT WITH ME, NO.

8 Q. I MEAN FIELD INTERVIEW CARDS.
r 9 A. THAT I REMEMBER REVIEWING, NO.
r
10 Q. DID MR. TROCHA ASK YOU TO DO A GANG
11 DOCUMENTATION REPORT ON ANDRES LOPEZ?
12 A. ON ANDRES LOPEZ, I DID NOT. I JUST RECENTLY
13 REVIEWED HIS FILE.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
YOU REVIEWED ALL OF HIS F.I. CARDS?
I REVIEWED THE ONES THAT I HAVE ON HIS FILE.
i
I
16 Q. IS THAT ALL OF THEM?
17 A. NO.
r 18 Q. AND IS HE A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER?
rm 19 A. YES.
I
I
20 Q. WHAT GANG?
r
i
21 A. SHELLTOWN 38TH.
22 Q. WAS IT THE SAME IN 2008? WAS HE DOCUMENTABLE
r 23
24
IN 2008?
A. NO. I DOCUMENTED HIM IN 2010.
r! 25 Q. IS THERE CONFLICTING INFORMATION ABOUT WHICH
26 GANG HE BELONGS TO?
r 27 A. I KNOW NOW BECAUSE OF F.I. YOU SHOW ME, BUT NOT
28 AT THE TIME OF DOCUMENTATION.
, j
2422
1 Q. SO THERE MAY BE CONFLICTING INFORMATION?

2 A. NOT AT THE TIME WHEN HE WAS DOCUMENTED.
3 Q. THAT WAS IN 2009?
4 A. 2010.
5 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE'S CONFLICTING
6
7
INFORMATION FOR 2008 FOR ANDRES?
A. I BASE HIS COMPUTATION AND CONTACTS IN 2009 AND
, i
8 2010.
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T LOOK AT ANYTHING FOR 2008?
10 A. I DO. AT THE TIME I DON'T RECALL WHETHER I
11 REALLY -- I'M PRETTY SURE I REVIEW ALL OF THEM. I DO
12 NOT RECALL EXACT DATES. I DO REMEMBER THE ONE THAT YOU
13
14
SHOW ME.
Q. AND YOU DIDN'T PREPARE A GANG DOCUMENTATION ,
15 REPORT FOR HIM?
19 MR. TROCHA: NO, THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
20 THE COURT: DETECTIVE GASCA, THANK YOU. YOU
21 MAY STEP DOWN. "'9
I
22 THE WITNESS: NO PROBLEM. THANK YOU.

23 THE COURT: BACK TO THE DEFENSE CASE.
..,
25 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. MAY
,
I
I
26 I INQUIRE OUTSIDE?
27 THE COURT: YOU MAY. !
28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. ~

I
!
r 2423
I

4 HELP YOU GOD?
~ 5 THE WITNESS: YEAH, I DO. I JUST DIDN'T KNOW
I
I
6 WHAT TO SAY.
fR' 7 THE COURT: THE QUESTION WAS: DO YOU PROMISE
I
8 TO TELL THE TRUTH?
9 THE WITNESS: YES.

10 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU. HAVE A SEAT UP
r
I
11 HERE NEXT TO ME, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. THANK YOU FOR
r 12
13
BEING HERE. GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON.
r 14
15

i 16 THE WITNESS: EVELYN ESTEPHANIA QUINTERO,
17 Q-U-I-N-T-E-R-0.
r 18 THE COURT: AND WHAT WAS THE NAME BEFORE
F 19 QUINTERO?
!
i
20 THE WITNESS: ESTEPHANIA.
r
I
21 THE COURT: WOULD YOU SPELL THAT, PLEASE.
22 THE WITNESS: E-S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I-A.

F'
23 THE COURT: MS. QUINTANILLA (SIC), THANK YOU.
I
25 EVELYN ESTEPHANIA QUINTERO,

rm
I
27 AS FOLLOWS:
28 Ill
2424
, \
3 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON.
4 IS IT MS. QUINTANILLA?
5 A. QUINTERO.
6 Q. MS. QUINTERO, ARE YOU OR WERE YOU EVER A MEMBER
7 OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. YOU WERE?
10 A. WELL, I HUNG OUT WITH THEM.
11 Q. YOU DIDN'T GET JUMPED IN?
12 A. NO.
13 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR NAME?
14 A. TEMPERS.
15 Q. IT WAS TEMPERS?
16 DO YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED ANDRES LOPEZ?
17 A. NO.
~
i
18 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER MEETING SOMEBODY NAMED LIL
19 STALKER? f!!:!Q,
i
i
20 A. NO.
21 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO MY INVESTIGATOR ON
22 SEPTEMBER 28, 2010?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND IF I SHOWED YOU A COPY OF YOUR STATEMENT,

25 WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO --
26 A. YEAH.
27 Q. APPROACHING THE WITNESS.
28 PLEASE READ THIS PARAGRAPH RIGHT HERE. READ IT
r 2425
F
I
1 TO YOURSELF TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION, AND THEN LOOK
r 2
3
AT ME.
A. OKAY.
4 Q. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DOES IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHETHER
r 7
8
YOU KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED LIL STALKER?
A. YEAH, I KNOW WHO HE IS, BUT I DON'T TALK TO HIM
r 9 OR ANYTHING.
r 11 A. BECAUSE OF HIS SISTER AND OLDER BROTHER.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT IS HIS OLDER BROTHER'S NAME?
OMAR.
r\
14 Q. AND YOU HAVE A SISTER AS WELL?
15 A. NO.
r 16 Q. HE HAS A SISTER?
17 A. YEAH.
r 18 Q. OKAY. AND YOU KNOW HER?
Fil 19 A. YEAH.
I 20 Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOU MET HIM?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
THE OLDER BROTHER?
ANDRES.
F 23 A. I NEVER MET ANDRES. I JUST KNEW IT WAS HIS --
I
24 THEY WERE BROTHER, LITTLE BROTHER.
r
.I 25 Q. OKAY. YOU KNEW OF HIM .
A. YEAH, I KNEW OF HIM, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HIM,
r 26
27 LIKE, "HEY," OR ANYTHING.
28 Q. YOU SAY YOU USED TO GO BY TEMPER.
~ I
2426
1 A. YEAH. ,.,
2 Q. YOUR FIRST NAME IS EVELYN. 1
3 A. YES. ~
5
Q.
A.
DO YOU LIVE IN SHELLTOWN OR THE AREA?
I USED TO. , J
)
7
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER BACK A COUPLE YEARS AGO,
SOMEBODY PASSED AWAY WHEN THEY GOT SHOT IN THE PARK?

, !
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT HAPPENING AT OCEAN VIEW
10 PARK?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THAT HAPPENED, IF YOU
13 RECALL?
14 A. WITH MY MOM, MOST LIKELY, IN TJ.
15 Q. DO YOU SPECIFICALLY RECALL WHERE YOU WERE?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN THAT --
18 A. OH, NO.
19 Q. WERE YOU AT OCEAN VIEW PARK AT ALL THAT NIGHT? ~

i
20 A. NO.
21 Q. SO IF ON EXHIBIT SS -- SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN
22 PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN ON THERE, "TEMPER" AND "EVELYN," IF

fS'j
23 THAT REPRESENTS YOU AND I WROTE AN "N" NEXT TO IT AS YOU i
24 NOT BEING IN THE PARK, WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?
25 A.
'i
YES, IT WOULD. (
26 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: I'M DOING IT AS INDICATED,

27 YOUR HONOR. l
28 THE COURT: SO REFLECT. ~
I
r 2427
f'
I
1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
r
I
I

r
:
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. TROCHA:
6 Q. MS. QUINTERO, BACK AT THIS TIME, YOU USED TO
r 7 HANG OUT WITH SOME OF THE OLDER GUYS, RIGHT?
8 A. YEAH.
r 9 Q. CHUCK?
10 A. YEAH.
r
\ 11 Q. CISCO?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. CROOKS?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
AND VANDAL?
r 16 A. YES.
17 Q. DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THEIR REAL NAMES?
r 18 A. I KNOW -- NO.
19 Q. ISN'T VANDAL'S REAL NAME CHRISTIAN?
20 A. YEAH, I KNEW IT WAS CHRIS, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IF
~
I
21 IT WAS, LIKE, CHRISTOPHER OR CHRISTIAN OR SOMETHING. I
22 KNEW IT WAS CHRIS.
23 Q. DID YOU KNOW ANY OF HIS SISTERS OR BROTHERS?
24 A. NO.
r
! 25 Q. NEVER MET THEM?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. THIS WAS THREE YEARS AGO?
28 A. YEAH.
,
2428
,.,
I
1 Q. AND WERE YOU STILL IN THE GANG AT THIS TIME? ,., I
I
2 A. WHEN I USED TO HANG OUT WITH THEM?
3 Q. YES.
6
A.
Q.
IT WAS ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO.
SO YOU WOULD REGULARLY HANG OUT WITH CHUCK AND
VANDAL AND THOSE GUYS.

,
l
7 A. YEAH. ~
!
8 Q. AT OCEAN VIEW PARK?
9 A. NOT AT OCEAN VIEW PARK.
10 Q. WHERE WOULD YOU HANG OUT? ~

I
11 A. IT WAS LIKE AT A HOUSE.
12 Q. WHOSE HOUSE?
13 A. I DON'T KNOW WHOSE HOUSE IT WAS. JUST LIKE

~
14 RANDOMLY, "OH, HEY, YOU GUYS ARE HERE, HI," BUT NEVER AT I
15 THE PARK.
~
16 Q. WHY NOT AT THE PARK? \
17 A. BECAUSE NOBODY USED TO HANG OUT AT THE PARK.
18 Q. NOBODY DID?
19 A. I DIDN'T. I NEVER HUNG OUT WITH NO ONE AT THE
20 PARK.
21 Q. THE PARK IS NOT A POPULAR PLACE WITH THESE
22 GUYS?
23 A. NO.
24 Q. SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS DON'T HANG OUT IN THE
25 PARK?
26 A. NOT WHEN I USED TO.
27 Q. THIS WAS ABOUT THREE, FOUR YEARS AGO?
28 A. LIKE FOUR YEARS AGO. , I
r 2429
1 Q. SO WHERE WERE YOU THE NIGHT THE SHOOTING
r 2 HAPPENED?
r 3
4
A.
HAPPENED,
I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY THAT DATE THAT IT
I DON'T KNOW WHAT DAY IT HAPPENED EITHER, BUT

~ 5 MOST LIKELY I WOULD BE AT MY MOM'S HOUSE.
I
6 Q. SO YOU'RE JUST GUESSING IF IT HAPPENED BACK
r 7 THEN, YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN AT YOUR MOM'S HOUSE?
8 A. YEAH, I WOULD HAVE BEEN AT MY MOM'S.
r 10
11
r 12
13 TO COURT.
THE COURT: MS. QUINTERO, THANK YOU FOR COMING
PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT THE QUESTIONS YOU
r 14
15
WERE ASKED OR WHAT WENT ON IN COURT WITH ANY OF THE
OTHER WITNESSES, EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS, UNTIL THE TRIAL

r
I
16 IS OVER. OKAY?

r
! 18 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
19 GOOD DAY TO YOU.
20 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. YOU TOO.
r
I
22 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THE DEFENSE IS GOING TO
r
I
23 RECALL SHAWN MONTPETIT BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR.
24 THE COURT: MR. MONTPETIT, YOU'VE BEEN SWORN
25 FROM YOUR PREVIOUS TESTIMONY. THAT OATH WILL CONTINUE
26 UNTIL TODAY'S DATE. OUR BAILIFF WAS NOT PRESENT WHEN
27 YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE.
28 GOOD AFTERNOON TO YOU.

~
J
.l
2430
1 THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.

2 THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOU MAY EXAMINE.
4
5
SHAWN MONTPETIT,
CALLED BY THE DEFENSE, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY FIRST DULY ,
6
7
DIRECT EXAMINATION
, l
,., \
9 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. MONTPETIT.
11 Q. THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK.
12 WE HAD A CONVERSATION OVER THE WEEKEND,
13 CORRECT?
14 A. FRIDAY.
15 Q. THE BASIS OF THAT CONVERSATION WAS TO COMPARE A
16 PIECE OF EVIDENCE CALLED FS13, RIGHT?
17 A. FS13A.
fll!rt
i
18 Q. THE PROSECUTION NEVER ASKED YOU TO MAKE I
19 ANALYSIS OF THIS, CORRECT?

20 A. NO, THEY NEVER ASKED FOR A SPECIFIC COMPARISON
21 OF THOSE TWO ITEMS. ~
,
22 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WE TALKED ABOUT THIS DURING

23 YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION, YOU WERE SPECIFICALLY ASKED TO
24 MAKE A COMPARISON TO THE GLOVES WITH FS8; DO YOU
25
26
27
REMEMBER?
A.
Q.
NO OTHER PIECE OF EVIDENCE?
, r
28 A. NO.
i
I
2431
r 1 Q. I CALLED YOU ON FRIDAY AND ASKED YOU TO DO A

iI 2 COMPARISON, RIGHT?
r 3
4
A. YOU LEFT A VOICEMAIL MESSAGE FOR ME. I CALLED
YOU BACK ON THURSDAY NIGHT, AND THEN WE SPOKE AGAIN ON
r 5
6
FRIDAY MORNING.
Q. IF THAT'S HOW IT WENT DOWN, FINE.
r 7 WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF -- WELL, LET ME BACK UP.

8 WHAT WE HAVE HERE ON THE POWERPOINT, WHAT WOULD
r
I
I
9 BE PAGE 10, IS FS13 AS COMPARED TO THE RIGHT GLOVE.
10 A. THAT'S WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE, YES.
F
r
11 Q. AND THAT IS 16-3, WHICH IS THE INSIDE OF THE
r
I
12
13
RIGHT GLOVE, THE MOST RECENT PCR OF IT?
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
RIGHT?
FS13 IS CONSISTENT AT ALL BUT TWO ALLELES,
r 16 A. YES. THERE WAS TWO MARKERS WHERE THERE WAS
17 MISMATCHES, YES.
r 18 Q. AND THE ALLELES ARE INDICATED IN RED WHERE IT
~
19 IS INCONSISTENT WITH 16-3?
I
I
20 A. CORRECT.
i 21 Q. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?
22 A. I WOULD INCLUDE THE -- FS13A IS A SWAB FROM A

~
I 23 BEER BOTTLE. THAT DNA PROFILE IS FROM AN UNKNOWN
I
24 INDIVIDUAL. WHATEVER INDIVIDUAL POSSESSES THAT DNA

~
25 PROFILE IS INCLUDED AS A POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTOR TO THE
26 MIXTURE FROM 16-3.

i 27 Q. DID YOU COME UP WITH ANY STATISTICS?
~ 28 A. I DID.
I
I
~
I
2432
,
J
l
1 Q. WHAT ARE THEY?
2 A. IF I COULD USE MY REPORT TO --
5 THE WITNESS: WITH RESPECT TO THE DNA PROFILE
6 FROM FS13A, THE APPROXIMATE PROBABILITIES THAT A PERSON
l
,
l
7 SELECTED AT RANDOM WOULD BE INCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE DNA
8 CONTRIBUTOR TO THE MIXTURE FROM 16-3 WAS 1 IN 15 IN THE
9 U.S. CAUCASIAN POPULATION, 1 IN 31 IN THE
10 AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATION, AND 1 IN SIX IN THE
11 HISPANIC POPULATION.
13
14
15
Q. SO THIS IS ABOUT THE SAME AS JOSEPH NIETO OR
SOMEONE LIKE THAT?
A. IT'S IN THE SAME BALLPARK AS VICTOR RAMOS,
,
16 ANDRES LOPEZ AND JOSEPH NIETO, THAT'S CORRECT.
17 Q. NOW, I DON'T HAVE A SLIDE FOR THE COMPARISON TO
~
l
,
18 17-3, WHICH IS THE INSIDE OF THE LEFT GLOVE, WITH FS13, J
19 BUT DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THAT?

i
20 A. YES. I WAS ALSO UNABLE TO EXCLUDE THE SOURCE
21 OF THE DNA FROM ITEM FS13A AS BEING A POSSIBLE ~
\
22 CONTRIBUTOR TO THE DNA RECOVERED FROM 17-3.
~
23 Q. NOW, MR. MONTPETIT, THE FACT THAT FS13 IS A
!
24 POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTOR OR CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM EITHER
25 GLOVE, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE CRIME LAB MISSED,
26 RIGHT?
~
1
27 A. I WOULDN'T SAY WE MISSED. IT'S NOT GENERALLY j
I
28 SOMETHING THAT WE DO -- TO COMPARE UNKNOWN DNA PROFILES
~
iI
r 2433
r 1 TO THE REST OF THE EVIDENCE IN A CASE, ESPECIALLY
r 2 COMPLEX MIXTURES -- WITHOUT KNOWING WHO THAT POTENTIAL
~
3 DNA CONTRIBUTOR IS.
I 4 Q. YOU DID IT WITH FS8, THOUGH, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A. AT THAT TIME WE HAD HAD AN INDICATION THAT WE
HAD A CODIS HIT TO THAT SAMPLE, WHICH IS WHY AT THAT
r 7
8
POINT I COULD DO THAT COMPARISON.
Q. THE DETECTIVES NEVER WANT TO KNOW IF, FOR
r 9
10
EXAMPLE, SOME OF THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE MATCHES OTHER
PIECES OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?

r 11 A. WHEN IT'S PARTICULARLY STRAIGHTFORWARD, IF
r 12
13
WE'VE GOT SINGLE SOURCE DNA PROFILES THAT ARE PRESENT IN
MULTIPLE SAMPLES, WE WILL ROUTINELY MAKE THAT
r 14
15
CONNECTION.
HOWEVER, WHEN THERE'S MIXTURES ASSOCIATED,
r 16 BECAUSE OF THE COMPLEXITIES INVOLVED IN LOOKING AT
17 MIXTURES, COMPARING UNKNOWN DNA PROFILES TO MIXTURES IS

~
! 18 NOT SOMETHING THAT WE TYPICALLY DO.
r 19
20
Q. WE FOUND OUT THROUGH TESTIMONY EARLIER THAT THE
HYPOTHETICAL I GAVE YOU THE OTHER DAY WAS SOMEBODY NAMED
r
I
21 VINCE MILLER.
22 WOULD YOU TAKE A LOOK BACK AT SLIDE 13.
r 23
24
THE STATISTICS BETWEEN VINCE MILLER AND
FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ ON 16-3 ARE SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR;

r
! 25 WOULD YOU AGREE?
26 A. THEY APPEAR TO BE SIMILAR NUMBERS, YES.

~
I 27 Q. VINCE MILLER CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM 16-3 AS A
r
I
28 CONTRIBUTOR?
~
I
2434
,
1
1
2
A.
Q.
THAT'S CORRECT.
AND THE LIST THAT I SHOWED YOU ON

, J
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF PEOPLE WHO CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM
6
16-3, I AMENDED IT FOR PURPOSES OF YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY,
IS IT ACCURATE?
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH MY REPORTS TO SEE.

,
1
j
8 TIME?
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WE SAID THERE WERE 12 LAST
1
9 A. YES. 1
10 Q. THERE ARE 14 ON THE LIST NOW, INCLUDING VINCE
~
,
11 MILLER AND FS13A, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? I
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND THE LIST OF PEOPLE WHO CAN BE EXCLUDED IS

l
14 THE SAME AS IT WAS THE OTHER DAY? ~

J
15 A. YES.
16 Q. ONLY SIX PEOPLE, SHOWING YOU SLIDE 15?
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. SO THE PERCENTAGE NOW IS -- OUT OF THE
19 REFERENCE SAMPLES AND/OR PIECES OF SINGLE SOURCE

~
20 EVIDENCE THAT YOU'VE COMPARED TO THE GLOVES, 70 PERCENT .!
21 OF THEM CANNOT BE EXCLUDED FROM THE GLOVE, RIGHT?

22
23
A.
CORRECT.
EACH TO DIFFERENT LEVELS, BUT, YES, THAT'S
., l
,
26 IS THERE CROSS?
27 MR. TROCHA: JUST A LITTLE BIT. _\
28 Ill
l
r 2435
F
I
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE MINI-FILER KIT,
MR. MONTPETIT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY DIDN'T YOU USE THE MINI-FILER KIT ON THE
r 7
8
GLOVES IN THIS CASE?
A. THE MINI-FILER DNA TESTING KIT IS A TESTING KIT
r 9 THAT IS SPECIALLY DESIGNED FOR COMPROMISED PIECES OF
10 EVIDENCE. THE MINI-FILER KIT IS SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD

r
l 11 USE IF WE HAD AN INDICATION THAT THERE WAS EXTREMELY
r 12
13
DEGRADED DNA.
WE KIND OF RESERVE THAT KIT AS SOMETHING THAT
r 14
15
WE USE IF OUR NORMAL TESTING DOESN'T BEAR FRUIT.
WOULD THEN FOLLOW UP WITH A MINI-FILER IF WE DEEMED IT

WE
r 16 WARRANTED.
17 WE USE THE MINI-FILER KIT ON HUMAN REMAINS THAT
18 HAVE BEEN LEFT EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS FOR YEARS AND
19 THAT TYPE OF THING. IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE GENERALLY DO
20 ON A FIRST PASS TEST ON EVIDENCE.

r:;t Q. YOU DIDN'T USE THE MINI-FILER KIT ON ANY OF THE
I 21
I
22 EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, CORRECT?
r
I
24 Q. THE MINI-FILER KIT ONLY LOOKS AT NINE DNA

F'
I
I 25 MARKERS?
26 A. I BELIEVE IT LOOKS AT EIGHT PLUS THE

r 27 SEX-DETERMINING MARKER, SO THAT WOULD BE NINE TOTAL.
28 Q. WHEREAS THE TESTING PROCEDURES YOU USED LOOKED

~
J
2436
1
1
2
AT 15 PLUS THE SEX?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
, 1
3 Q. SO THE TESTING PROCEDURES YOU USED ARE MORE
4 COMPREHENSIVE IN DETAIL?
1
5
6
A. IF THE EVIDENCE IS SUITABLE TO USING IT, IT
GENERALLY YIELDS MORE INFORMATION.

1
MR. SPEREDELOZZI: NOTHING.

1
8
9 THE COURT: MR. MONTPETIT, THANK YOU, SIR. YOU 1

10 MAY STEP DOWN. GOOD DAY TO YOU.
11 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. SPEREDELOZZI, YOUR NEXT

12
1
13
14
15
WITNESS.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT: YES.

BRIEF SIDEBAR, YOUR HONOR?
SIDEBAR RULES ARE IN EFFECT,

,
,
16 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. OFF THE RECORD, PLEASE.
18
19
20
THE COURT:
15-MINUTE RECESS.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR
YOUR CONTINUED ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
WE'LL RECONVENE AT 3:00.

LET'S TAKE A
PLEASE
, I
21 REMEMBER THE ADMONITION.
22 WE ARE IN RECESS.
~
,
23 (MID-AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.) i
24 THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND
,
25 GENTLEMEN. ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. ALL I
26 MEMBERS OF THE JURY ARE PRESENT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR
,
I
27 CONTINUED CONSCIENTIOUS CONSIDERATION OF THIS CASE. I
28 WILL INVITE MR. SPEREDELOZZI TO CALL HIS NEXT WITNESS.
I
I I
r 2437
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE
r 2 DEFENSE CALLS FLORENCIO DOMINGUEZ.
3
r
I
4
THE COURT: MR. DOMINGUEZ, PLEASE STAND, FACE
THE CLERK AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
r 5
6
r 7
8
HELP YOU GOD?
r 9
10
THE DEFENDANT:
THE CLERK:
I DO.

r
1 11 THE WITNESS STAND.
r 12
13
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
r 14
15
r 16 THE WITNESS: FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ. THE
17 LAST NAME IS D-0-M-I-N-G-U-E-Z.

[ 18 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
r 19
20
r 21
22
THE DEFENDANT, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED
r 23
24
ON HIS OWN BEHALF AS FOLLOWS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
26 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. DOMINGUEZ.

r 27 A. GOOD AFTERNOON.
28 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, ARE YOU A GANG MEMBER?

iI
~
I
2438
,
1
1 A. IAM A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER, YES. ,.,
,
I
2 Q. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? J
3 A. THAT MEANS I'M A GANG MEMBER ON PAPER.

4 Q. ARE YOU ACTIVE IN THE GANG? l
6
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
1
1
,
7 A. JUST, YOU KNOW, I HAD AN ACTIVE PERIOD AND, YOU
8 KNOW, IT'S BEHIND ME, YOU KNOW. I STILL HANG OUT WITH A
9 LOT OF FRIENDS I GREW UP WITH SINCE WE WERE LITTLE KIDS,
10 BUT BESIDES THAT, I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF ACTIVE AT ALL.
11 Q. WHEN WOULD YOU SAY YOU STOPPED BEING ACTIVE IN 1
12 A GANG?
13 A. IN MY EARLY TWENTIES.
1
14 Q. AND WHY DO YOU SAY YOU'RE INACTIVE NOW?
15 A. LIKE I SAID, I JUST, YOU KNOW -- I'M 33 NOW.
1
,
16 YOU KNOW, I -- YOU KNOW, YOU GROW OUT OF THAT PHASE, THE )
17 ACTIVE PHASE, BUT YOU NEVER LOSE CONTACT WITH YOUR

18 FRIENDS, THE GUYS YOU GREW UP WITH. AND YOU GROW UP AND J
19 OUT OF THAT ACTIVE PHASE.

20 Q. ARE YOU MARRIED? l
21 A. YES, I AM.
22
23
Q.
A.
WHO ARE YOU MARRIED TO?
NATALIE DOMINGUEZ.
, J
l
24 Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY KIDS?

25 A. YES, I DO. l
26 Q. WHO ARE THEY?
27 A. JOSE, DANNY AND ALEAH. l
28 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, HAVE YOU WORKED IN THE PAST?
l
r 2439
r 1 A. YES, I HAVE.
r 2 Q. WHERE HAVE YOU WORKED?
r 3
4
A. I STARTED WORKING AT A COMPANY CALLED CASPER
CONCRETE CUTTING, AND THEN SHORTLY AFTER THAT I GOT A
r 5
6
JOB AT CUT 'N CORE, CONCRETE CUTTING.
Q. WHAT DID YOU DO FOR CUT 'N CORE?
r 7
8
A.
DRILLER.
I WAS A CONCRETE CUTTER, DECO CUTTER, CORE
r 9 Q. HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU WORK?
r
l
10
11
A.
Q.
ANYWHERE FROM 40 TO 60 HOURS A WEEK.
PUT IN A LOT OF OVERTIME?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
WHY?
r 14
15
A. YOU KNOW, JUST -- WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS
EXPECTED TO A LOT, BUT JUST A LOT TO MAINTAIN MY HOUSE
r 16
17
AND MY KIDS THE WAY I WANTED TO.
Q. WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD DID YOU GROW UP?
r 18 A. I GREW UP IN SHELLTOWN.
r
!
19
20
Q.
A.
WHEN DID YOU MOVE OUT OF SHELLTOWN?
I MOVED OUT OF SHELLTOWN, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY,
I( 21 '97, '98.
22 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
I MOVED TO ALPINE WITH MY WIFE AND OUR FAMILY.
WHY DID YOU MOVE TO ALPINE?
r 25 A. WE HAD-- MY OLDEST SON WAS BORN IN '98, AND WE
26 JUST DECIDED IT WAS A GOOD MOVE AT THE TIME.

r
1 27 Q. AND AFTER YOU WERE LIVING IN ALPINE, DID YOU
~ 28 MOVE BACK?
I
l
r
2440
,
1
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHERE DID YOU MOVE TO?
3 A. EL CAJON.
4 Q. WHEN DID YOU MOVE TO EL CAJON? l

5
6
A.
Q.
I'LL SAY LATE '98, MAYBE '99.
SOON THEREAFTER?
1
7
9
A.
Q.
YEAH.
SO YOU HAVEN'T LIVED IN SHELLTOWN IN QUITE A
LONG TIME.
,
l
I
10 A. YES.
11 Q. EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE NOT LIVING IN SHELLTOWN,
12 YOU'RE NOT AT YOUR EARLY TWENTIES, RIGHT?

1
13
14
15
A.
Q.
GANG?
NO.
SO WOULD YOU SAY YOU'RE STILL ACTIVE IN THE

, j
16 A. I WOULDN'T SAY ACTIVE, BUT I WILL STILL COME

1
17 AROUND A LOT, A LOT MORE.
18
19
20
Q. DID HAVING KIDS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MOVING
OUT OF SHELLTOWN?
A. YES, IT DID.
,
1 j
21 Q. WHAT DID IT HAVE TO DO WITH MOVING OUT?
22 A. WELL, I GREW UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, YOU KNOW,

23
24
AND IT WASN'T THE BEST PLACE TO GROW UP.
THE BEST PLACE TO RAISE KIDS, YOU KNOW.
IT WOULDN'T BE
l
25 Q. IS THAT WHY YOU WANTED TO MOVE OUT? l
26 A. YES.
27 Q. ARE YOU PROUD OF WHERE YOU CAME FROM? l
28 A. YES, I AM, I'M VERY PROUD.
l
r 2441
r 1 Q. WHY?
r 2 A. NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE GET TO MAKE IT OUT THAT
r 3
4
NEIGHBORHOOD AND BE SUCCESSFUL THE WAY I HAVE.
KNOW, WE WERE ALWAYS ONE OF THE BROKEST FAMILIES ON THE

YOU
r 5
6
BLOCK, IF NOT THE BROKEST, AND I FEEL I CAME A LONG WAY
FROM THAT AND I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.
r 7
8
Q. YOU SAID "SUCCESSFUL."
DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF SUCCESSFUL?
r 9
10 YES.
A. YES, I DO. YOU KNOW, I'VE COME A LONG WAY,
r
l 11 Q. YOUR HOUSE IN EL CAJON, WHO OWNS THAT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
I DO.
DO YOU OWN ANY OTHER PROPERTIES?
r 14
15
A.
YOU KNOW,
I OWNED TWO MORE PROPERTIES BESIDES THAT, BUT,
DUE TO MY INCARCERATION AND, YOU KNOW, THE
r 16
17
MARKET THE WAY IT IS, WE HAD TO DO A SHORT SALE, A QUICK
SALE ON TWO HOMES.
r 18 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT ACTIVE IN THE
r 19
20
GANG, BUT YOU STILL HANG OUT WITH PEOPLE LIKE RANDY
BARNES, CORRECT?
r
I
21 A. YES, I DO.
22 Q. YOU HANG OUT WITH JONATHAN QUINTANILLA.
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
YOU HANG OUTSIDE WITH SOMEONE NAMED CHRISTIAN
r 25 MARTINEZ, RIGHT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YES, I DO.
IF YOU'RE NOT ACTIVE IN A GANG, WHY DO YOU HANG
F 28 OUT WITH THEM?

i
2442
,
l
1 A. THOSE ARE CLOSE FRIENDS OF MINE, VERY CLOSE
2 FRIENDS OF MINE. l
3 Q. JOHN QUINTANILLA?
4 A. JONATHAN -- I'VE KNOWN HIM SINCE HE WAS VERY l

5
6
YOUNG. RANDY BARNES -- WE WENT THROUGH LITTLE LEAGUE
TOGETHER AND WE JUST STAYED FRIENDS.

1
7
8
Q.
A.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN RANDY?
I'D SAY MAYBE SINCE I WAS 9, 10.

l
1
9
10
11
Q. IF THERE WAS NEVER A SHELLTOWN GANG, WOULD YOU
STILL BE FRIENDS WITH RANDY?
A. YEAH.
,
j
!
12 Q. HOW ABOUT MR. MARTINEZ? HOW DID YOU MEET HIM?

1
13
14
15
A.
TIME.
I SOLD HIM SOME PIT BULL PUPPIES A FEW YEARS
BACK, AND I STOPPED BY TO CHECK UP ON THEM FROM TIME TO
AND HE LIVED ACROSS THE STREET FROM ONE OF MY

, j
16
17
FRIENDS, AND WE JUST STARTED TALKING. AND IT TURNS OUT
HE'S A NICE GUY, SO WE JUST STARTED HANGING OUT.

,
l
18
19
20
Q. DID YOU KNOW THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU
HANG OUT WITH ARE DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBERS?
A. YES.
, I
21 Q. DOES THAT BOTHER YOU?
22
23
A.
Q.
NO.
WHY NOT?
, l
24 A. I'M A DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER. YOU KNOW,
25 GROWING UP IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF 1 ;
26 PEOPLE GET DOCUMENTED, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT GANG
27 MEMBERS. MOST OF THE KIDS DOWN THERE ARE DOCUMENTED. l

28 Q. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING A
,
1
J
r 2443
[
1 DOCUMENTED GANG MEMBER AND BEING AN ACTUAL GANG
r 2 MEMBER?
3 A. WELL, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DOCUMENTED GANG

[ 4 MEMBER AND AN ACTUAL GANG MEMBER IS AN ACTUAL GANG
r 5
6
MEMBER -- HE'S ACTUALLY REALLY PART OF A GANG, YOU KNOW,
WHICH, JUMPED IN, YOU KNOW, CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW, A PART
r 7
8
OF THAT GANG.
AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE JUST DOCUMENTED.
r 9 THEY COULD JUST BE PEOPLE WHO HANG OUT WITH, YOU KNOW,
r
10 THE PEOPLE FROM THAT AREA OR THE GANG MEMBERS FROM THAT
11 AREA, WHICH, YOU KNOW, HAPPENS A LOT.
12 YOU KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS

[ 13 YOUNG, I HAD A FRIEND THAT DIDN'T CLAIM SHELLTOWN, BUT,
r 14
15
YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME WE GOT CONTACTED BY THE POLICE,
THEY WERE WITH ME, AND I WAS A DOCUMENTED ACTIVE GANG
c 16 MEMBER AT THE TIME, AND JUST DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY
r 17
18
LIVED MAYBE TWO, THREE HOUSES AWAY FROM ME AND WE WERE
GETTING CONTACTED MAYBE TWO, THREE TIMES A WEEK, THEY
r 19
20
BECAME DOCUMENTED ALSO.
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU HAVE SOME INTERESTING
r 21
22
TATTOOS; WOULD YOU AGREE?
A. YES, I DO.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
SOME OF THOSE TATTOOS ARE GANG TATTOOS, RIGHT?
I HAVE ONE TATTOO THAT'S ACTUALLY A GANG
r 25 TATTOO.
r 26
27
Q. LET'S GO THROUGH THEM.
YOU HAVE "HOOD RAISED" TATTOOED ON YOUR ARM.
r 28 A. YES, I DO.
r
2444
,
1
1 Q. AND THERE ARE SHELLS BEHIND IT.
~
I
2 A. YES. J
3 Q. DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH A GANG?
4 A. THE SHELLS HAVE TO DO WITH SHELLTOWN, YES, BUT l

5 YOU KNOW, SHELLTOWN IS A COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, AND
1
6 SHELLS YOU KNOW, SHELLS REPRESENT THAT COMMUNITY.
,
7
8 TATTOO.
YOU KNOW, SHELLS BY THEMSELVES ARE NOT A GANG
IF YOU WERE TO HAVE SHELLS AND A "38TH STREET"

, l
10
11
NEXT TO IT, THAT'S A GANG TATTOO.
THEY'RE RELATED TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
LABEL AND THE MUSIC WE PRODUCED.

BUT SHELLS ARE --
SO IS MY RECORD , )
12 Q. HOW ABOUT AN OVP TATTOO ON YOUR STOMACH?
13 A. OVP IS THE PARK AND THE AREA AROUND THERE.

1
,
1
14 Q. WHERE DID YOU GROW UP?
15 A. I GREW UP MAYBE A BLOCK AWAY FROM THAT PARK.
16 Q. DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHY YOU GOT
17 AN OVP TATTOO?
18 A. YES. I GREW UP THERE. FROM MAYBE THE TIME I 1

19 WAS 4 TO MAYBE 17, I GREW UP IN WALKING DISTANCE FROM
20 THE PARK. WE SPENT OUR SUMMERS THERE GETTING FREE LUNCH
21 FROM THE RECREATIONAL CENTER WHEN WE WERE ON VACATION
22
23
24
FROM SCHOOL.
I LEARNED HOW TO SWIM THERE. IN THE SUMMERTIME
THEY SET UP A LIKE A PLASTIC POOL AND THEY SHOWED LIKE

,
25 THE NEIGHBORHOOD KIDS HOW TO SWIM RIGHT THERE. MY WHOLE 1 1
26 LIFE HAS BEEN PRETTY MUCH REVOLVED AROUND THAT PARK WHEN
27 I WAS YOUNG. l
28 Q. YOU HAVE A TATTOO ON YOUR BACK WITH A GIGANTIC
1 J
r 2445
[
1 3-8 ON IT.
r 2 A. YES.
c 3
4
Q.
A.
WHAT'S THAT?
THAT'S 38TH STREET.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT IS THAT TATTOO OF?
THAT REPRESENTS THE GANG IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
THAT'S THE GANG TAT?
YES, IT IS.
r 9 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET THAT?
r
10 A. MAYBE 13, MAYBE 14.
11 Q. YEARS AGO?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH, A LONG TIME AGO.
SO BEFORE YOU WERE 20 MAYBE?
r 14
15
A. YEAH, AROUND THE TIME, MAYBE 20, 21, SOMEWHERE
AROUND THERE. I CAN'T REALLY -- I MEAN, IT'S BEEN SO
c 16
17
LONG, I CAN'T REALLY PUT A DATE ON IT, BUT IT'S BEEN A
LONG, LONG TIME.
r 18 Q. YOU HAVE A LOT OF TATTOOS, RIGHT?

19 A. YES, I DO. I'M VERY FOND OF TATTOOS.
20 Q. WHAT OTHER TATTOOS DO YOU HAVE THAT ARE NOT
r 21
22
GANG RELATED?
A. I HAVE A LOT OF AZTEC TATTOOS, YOU KNOW, MY
r 23
24
HERITAGE, AND I HAVE SOME FEMALES ON MY ARM AND MY
WIFE'S NAME ON MY STOMACH; AGONY AND ECSTASY, WHICH IS A
i 25 SONG, ON MY NECK.
r 26 Q. YOU HAVE A LOT OF TATTOOS.

27 A. YES. I COULD GO ON, BUT THERE'S TOO MANY.
28 Q. WHEN YOU WERE A KID, WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGER,
i
r
2446
1
l
1 DID YOU USED TO TAG AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD?
2 A. YEAH. l
3 Q. WHAT TYPE OF STUFF WOULD YOU TAG?
4 A. YOU KNOW, YOUR NAME; YOU KNOW, YOUR MONIKER; 1

5
6
YOU KNOW, YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD GANG.
Q. DID IT HAVE TO DO WITH BEING IN THE GANG?

1
7 A. YES.
1
8 Q. WHAT DID IT HAVE TO DO WITH BEING IN THE
1
9
10
GANG?
A. WELL, WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG AND YOU'RE GROWING UP , J
11
12
13
AND YOU'RE ACTIVE, YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, SHOW EVERYBODY
THAT YOU'RE OUT THERE; YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING TO
PROVE, SO YOU WANT TO GET YOUR NAME KNOWN. YOU WANT

, ~
14
15
EVERYBODY TO SEE IT AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
Q. AND IN THE GANG, WHAT GROUP OF PEOPLE DOES THE

1
16 TAGGINGS?
l
17 A. IT'S ALWAYS THE YOUNGER KIDS, THE YOUNGER
18 CROWD. 1
19 Q. DO OLDER GANG MEMBERS -- DO THEY EVER TAG?
20
21
A. I WOULDN'T SAY NEVER, BUT THAT'S IT'S NOT
COMMON FOR SOMEBODY OLDER TO BE DOING THINGS LIKE THAT, , J

22 NO.
23 Q. YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING THE TRIAL, RIGHT? 1 1
24 A. YES, I HAVE, VERY CLOSELY.
25 Q. WE'VE SEEN PICTURES OF THE NAME "SPEEDY" TAGGED 1

26 AROUND, RIGHT?
27 A. RIGHT. l
28 Q. THAT USED TO BE YOUR NAME, RIGHT?
l )
l
r 2447
r 1 A. YES, IT WAS.
r 2 Q. YOU ALSO GO BY "CHUNKY"?
r
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO SEEING "SPEEDY" TAGGED
r 5
6
AROUND THREE OR FOUR OF THOSE PICTURES?
A. NOTHING REALLY. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO
r 7
8
THINK OF IT.
LONG TIME.
I MEAN, I HAVEN'T GONE BY THAT NAME FOR A
I WOULDN'T --
r 9 Q. WAS IT YOU WHO TAGGED THEM?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
NO.
DO GANG MEMBERS OR PEOPLE WHO ARE TAGGING EVER
r 12
13
TAG OTHER PEOPLE'S NAMES, DO YOU KNOW?
A. YEAH, IT'S ACTUALLY VERY COMMON.
r 14
15
Q.
SISTER.
LET'S GO OVER SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED WITH YOUR
r 16
17 CASE?
WHAT HAPPENED WITH HER WITH REGARD TO THIS
r 18 A. MY SISTER AND HER HUSBAND WERE APPROACHED
r 19
20
AND
SNITCHING.
THEY WERE APPROACHED AND TOLD THAT I WAS
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHY WERE YOU SNITCHING ACCORDING TO --
BECAUSE MY INVESTIGATOR, JOE MALDONADO, HAS
r 23
24
BEEN ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT CERTAIN PEOPLE RELATED TO
THIS CASE.
r
'
25 Q. WERE THERE ANY THREATS MADE?
26 A. I WOULDN'T SAY IT WAS --
r 27 MR. TROCHA: OBJECTION. HEARSAY AT THIS POINT,
28 YOUR HONOR.
l
r
l
2448
, !
1 THE COURT: NO FOUNDATION TO SHOW PERSONAL
2
3
4
KNOWLEDGE AT THIS POINT.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
NOT OFFERED FOR ITS TRUTH.
IT'S TO SHOW STATE OF MIND; ,
1
l
6
THE COURT:
MR. TROCHA:
MR. TROCHA?
A SIDEBAR REVIEW TO HEAR MORE OF
1
7
8
THIS BEFORE WE HEAR IT FOR THE FIRST TIME?
THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY QUESTION.
1
9 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: THANK YOU. 1
11 Q. WHAT WAS SAID TO YOUR SISTER, TO YOUR 1
12 KNOWLEDGE?
13 A. THEY WERE JUST TELLING HER THAT, YOU KNOW
1 ~
14
15
LIKE I SAID, MY INVESTIGATOR, JOE, HAS BEEN ASKING
QUESTIONS ABOUT CERTAIN PEOPLE, AND THEY WERE JUST
1
16 SAYING THAT I'M SNITCHING BECAUSE HE KNOWS STUFF THAT I
l
17 GUESS HE SHOULDN'T KNOW OR ASKING ABOUT PEOPLE THAT
18 SHOULDN'T BE ASKED ABOUT CONCERNING THIS CASE. 1
19 Q. HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?
l
20
21
22
A. UNCOMFORTABLE, YOU KNOW, BUT, YOU KNOW, JOE IS
A GOOD INVESTIGATOR.
BEEN FOLLOWING HIS LEADS.
HE'S BEEN DOING HIS JOB. HE'S , 1
23 YOU KNOW, I REALLY HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE 1 j
24 OR INFORMATION, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT IS UNCOMFORTABLE,
1
25
26
27
ESPECIALLY WHERE I'M -- WHERE I'M AT RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE
IT'S LOOKED DOWN UPON, ESPECIALLY BEING INCARCERATED,
YOU KNOW.
,
J
28 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU OWN A RECORD LABEL CALLED

l
l
r 2449
[
1 HOOD RAISED?
r 2 A. YES, I DO.
4 A. IT'S A RECORD LABEL, AND WE PUT OUT, YOU KNOW,
r 5
6
HIP-HOP MUSIC.
Q. WHO WORKS WITH YOU ON THAT PROJECT?
r 7
8
A.
ARTISTS.
IT'S MY RECORD LABEL AND I HAVE VARIOUS
I HAVE A PROMOTIONAL TEAM, INTERNET
[ 9 PROMOTIONAL TEAM, STREET TEAMS, STUFF LIKE THAT.
10 Q. WHO IS YOUR ARTISTS?
r 11 A. OUR MAIN ARTIST IS LIL AL.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
AND WHAT RECORDS HAS HE PUT OUT?
HE HAS PUT OUT ONE ALBUM CALLED "LIL AL RAISED,
r 14
15
THE LP."
Q. AND IS THAT THE ONE WITH "SABROSITA" ON IT?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES.
DO YOU KNOW FRANKIE SANDOVAL?

[ 18 A. YES, I DO.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT'S HIS NAME?
HIS RAP NAME?
r 21
22
Q.
A.
YEAH?
YOUNG SICC.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
DOES HE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOOD RAISED?
HE'S ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, COLLABORATED WITH
r 25
26
LIL AL ON A LOT OF SONGS, DONE A FEW SONGS FOR US.
Q. HOW DOES YOUR LIFE GROWING UP IN SHELLTOWN,
r 27 BEING A MEMBER OF A GANG AT ONE POINT -- WHAT DOES THAT
28 HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR MUSIC?

[
r
2450
1
l
1 A. WELL, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF OUR ARTISTS ARE, YOU
2 KNOW, BASED OUT OF THAT AREA, YOU KNOW, OUT OF THE
3 SHELLTOWN AREA. WE GOT SOME ASIAN ARTISTS AND ALSO SOME
4 BLACK ARTISTS. WE'RE ALL FROM THAT AREA. 1

5
6
YOU KNOW, A LOT OF OUR MUSIC HAS TO DO WITH THE
DAILY STRUGGLES OF BLACKS IN THAT AREA, YOU KNOW, JUST

1
,
l
7 BASICALLY GROWING UP IN THAT AREA, LIVING THROUGH WHAT
8 WE'VE LIVED THROUGH, AND, YOU KNOW, STRUGGLING TO GET
9 OUT OF THAT AREA. ;
10 Q. DO YOU USE A GANG TO BRAND OR SELL YOUR MUSIC?
11 A. YES, YOU COULD SAY THAT. 1

12 Q. WHY?
13 A. WELL, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT'S OBVIOUS WE'RE NOT l

14 GOING TO BE YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT GOING TO REACH LIKE
1
15
16
17
THE COUNTRY MUSIC, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, WE'RE
MORE FOCUSED ON THE URBAN CROWD, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT
CAN RELATE TO OUR MUSIC, YOU KNOW, SO WE USE A STREET

,
18 BACKGROUND, YOU KNOW, AS, YOU KNOW, PROMOTION FOR THAT. 1
19 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHERE DID YOU MAKE THIS MUSIC?
20 A. WELL, I HAD A STUDIO IN SPRING VALLEY WHERE WE l
21 DO A LOT OF RECORDING, AND WE DO A LOT OF RECORDING IN
22 L.A.
l
23
24
Q. THIS HOUSE IN SPRING VALLEY, WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT THAT QUITE A BIT DURING THE TRIAL.
l
25 A. YES, ABOUT SEEING SOME PICTURES FROM THERE. i I
26 Q. YOU SAW A PICTURE OF WHAT APPEARED TO BE A

27 GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO MAY BE OR MAY NOT BE MEMBERS OF l
28 SHELLTOWN.
l
l
r 2451
[
1 A. RIGHT.
r 2 Q. WHY WOULD THEY BE AT YOUR HOUSE?
r 3
4
A. THOSE DOORS RIGHT THERE TO THAT STUDIO WERE
ALWAYS OPEN TO ANYBODY -- ANYBODY FROM THAT AREA THAT
r 5
6
WANTED TO GO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT BESIDES, YOU KNOW,
GET INTO TROUBLE.
L 7
8
YOU KNOW, I SPECIFICALLY GOT THAT STUDIO IN
SPRING VALLEY OUT OF THAT AREA SO I COULD HAVE A PLACE
[ 9 FOR, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THESE YOUNGER KIDS TO GO DO

10 SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE OUTSIDE OF THAT AREA. WE COULDN'T
r 11 HAVE THAT STUDIO IN SHELLTOWN WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, A LOT
r 12
13
OF POLICE ACTIVITY AROUND IT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
Q. THE PICTURES THAT HAVE BEEN SHOWN OVER AND OVER
r 14
15
AGAIN -- DO YOU REMEMBER THAT NIGHT?
A. NO.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
ONE WITNESS SAID THAT THAT HAPPENED ON 3-8 DAY.
YES.
r 18
19
Q.
A.
IS THAT PICTURE OF WHEN THAT WAS?
NO.
[ 20 Q. WHY?
r 21
22
A. 3-8 DAY, I MEAN THAT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW,
SHELLTOWN DAY. AND, I MEAN, I'VE NEVER HAD A 3-8 DAY
r 23
24
PARTY AT THAT HOUSE.
A SHELLTOWN PARTY
AND, YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS 3-8 DAY,
YOU KNOW, THERE'S ONLY MAYBE EIGHT,
r 25
26
NINE OR 10 PEOPLE
THAT PARTY.
NINE OR 10 PEOPLE AT THE MOST AT
WHERE IS EVERYBODY ELSE?
r 27 Q. ONE WITNESS IN THIS CASE STATED THAT HE WAS
r 28 JUMPED IN THAT NIGHT.
r
2452
l
l
,
I
1 DO YOU REMEMBER ANYBODY GETTING BEAT UP AT THAT

2 HOUSE EVER? J
3 A. YOU KNOW WHAT? THAT WOULD BE -- THERE'S A
4 NUMBER OF REASONS WHY THAT WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED AT l
5 THAT HOUSE RIGHT THERE.
6 Q. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU REMEMBER A NIGHT
1
7 WHERE A BUNCH OF LITTLE KIDS GOT BEAT UP AT THAT HOUSE? 1 -:1
8 A. NO, NEVER.
9 Q. WHY COULDN'T THAT HAPPEN AT THAT HOUSE? 1
10 A. AT THAT HOUSE -- CAN WE SEE THE PICTURE?
11 Q. WHY DON'T WE TAKE A LOOK AT IT. 1
,
12 MR. PROSECUTOR, DO YOU HAVE
13 THE COURT: 231.
1
l
16
17
18
Q. WE'RE SEEING THE PICTURE RIGHT NOW.
WHAT DID YOU WANT TO TELL US ABOUT WHY THAT
COULDN'T HAPPEN?
, J
19 A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THIS NIGHT RIGHT HERE IN

20 PARTICULAR, I MEAN, EVERYBODY UP ON THAT TOP ROW IS 20 l
21 YEARS PLUS, AND ALL THESE KIDS, THEY LOOK MAYBE 12 OR
22 13, WHICH, YOU KNOW, NOBODY IN THAT PICTURE WOULD BE
l
23 BEATING UP ON THESE LITTLE KIDS DOWN HERE. ~
1
24 BUT ONE OF THE MOST OBVIOUS REASONS IS IF YOU
25 LOOK RIGHT HERE, I HAVE A CAST ON MY HAND RIGHT THERE. 1 l
26 I SUFFERED A REALLY BAD BREAK IN MY HAND IN FEBRUARY OF

27 2009, WHICH I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN l
28 ANYBODY GETTING BEAT UP WHATSOEVER.
l
1
r 2453
r 1 AND THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON IS IF YOU LOOK
r 2 BACK HERE, THERE IS AN ACTUAL HOUSE RIGHT THERE. THIS
r 3
4
IS A RENTAL PROPERTY, WHICH I USE THIS AS A MUSIC STUDIO
AND I HAD A FAMILY LIVING BACK THERE, A CAUCASIAN
r 5
6
FAMILY, A HUSBAND, HIS WIFE, THEIR TWO YOUNG DAUGHTERS
AND, YOU KNOW, HIS WIFE'S GRANDFATHER.
r_ 7 Q. SO YOU WERE THEIR LANDLORD?
8 A. YES. AND IF WE WERE TO BE JUMPING -- THIS IS
[ 9 THEIR YARD. THERE IS NO YARD. THERE IS ONLY THE
10 DRIVEWAY AND THE STREET. SO IF WE WERE TO BE JUMPING

[ 11 INSIDE THEIR YARD, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TENANT WOULD GO FOR
12 SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

r 13 Q. AND THEY MIGHT HAVE CALLED THE POLICE ON YOU,
r 14
15
TOO?
A. I'M SURE THEY WOULD HAVE CALLED THE COPS IF
r 16
17
THEY LOOKED OUTSIDE AND SEEN, WHAT, 10 GROWN MEN BEATING
UP ON SOME 12-YEAR-OLD KIDS.
r 18 Q. HOW CLOSE IS THAT HOUSE TO YOUR STUDIO?
19 A. MAYBE 10, 15 FEET.

[ 20 Q. SO THERE'S NO SOUND BARRIER OR ANYTHING THERE,
r 21
22
IS THERE?
A. NO. THE ONLY YARD RIGHT THERE IS THE YARD TO
r 23
24
THAT -- TO THE HOUSE, TO THE RENTAL PROPERTY.
Q. YOU HAD A CAST ON.
r
;
25
26 A.
HOW DID YOU BREAK YOUR HAND?
GETTING OUT OF THE SHOWER, I WAS REACHING FOR

r 27 THE ACTUAL FLOOR MAT WITH ONE LEG, AND THE LEG I HAD
28 INSIDE THE SHOWER GAVE OUT. AND I TRIED TO CATCH MYSELF

L
r
,
1 BEFORE I HURT MYSELF ON THE TUB, AND I SNAPPED THIS BONE
2454
, }
2 IN TWO. ACTUALLY, I SNAPPED IT LIKE THAT. IT NEVER l

3 HEALED RIGHT, BUT --
1
4
5
6
OFF.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THANK YOU. WE CAN TURN THAT
, J
8
Q. WHEN WE WERE HEARING FROM SOME WITNESSES
EARLIER IN THIS TRIAL, WE HEARD SOME FACTS ABOUT A CASE
1
1
9
10
11
THAT HAPPENED IN 2004 AT 7-ELEVEN.
A.
Q.
YES.
WHAT HAPPENED?
, I
J
12 A. THAT NIGHT I WAS WITH A FRIEND, MY FRIEND

13
14
15
ARTURO GUERRERO, AND WE WALKED INTO 7-ELEVEN, WALKED TO
THE BEER SECTION. I GRABBED SOME BEER.
AS WE HEADED TO THE FRONT OF THE STORE, WE GOT
,
J
16
17
IN LINE TO PAY AND THERE WAS THESE TWO GUYS IN FRONT OF
US, YOU KNOW, AND THEY HAD A BUNCH OF RAIDER APPAREL ON.
1
18 Q. WHAT'S YOUR FAVORITE FOOTBALL TEAM? 1
19 A. THE CHARGERS, OBVIOUSLY.
20 Q. THEY HAVE A RIVALRY WITH WHO? l
21 A. THE RAIDERS.
22 Q. AND SO WHAT HAPPENED?
l
l
,
23 A. MY FRIEND, ARTURO, ASKED ONE OF THEM IF HE WAS
24 A RAIDER FAN, AND HE SAID, "YES," AND MY FRIEND ARTURO
25 TOLD HIM, "FUCK THE RAIDERS" AND, YOU KNOW, PUNCHED HIM
26 AND THEY STARTED FIGHTING.
27 Q. WHAT WERE YOU HOLDING? l
28 A. I WAS HOLDING SOME BEER AT THE TIME, AND, YOU
1
1
r 2455
r 1 KNOW, I WAS JUST WATCHING AT FIRST, AND, YOU KNOW, RIGHT
r 2 AFTER HE STARTED FIGHTING, THEY HAPPENED TO BE WITH A

3 THIRD PERSON AND HE CAME IN FROM OUTSIDE THE STORE AND
c 4 HIT ARTURO IN THE BACK-- FROM THE BACK, AND THEN THAT'S
r 5
6
WHEN I, YOU KNOW, JUMPED IN TO HELP HIM.
Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
I FOUGHT WITH THE THIRD GUY.
DID YOU PUNCH HIM?
[ 9 A. YEAH. HE PUNCHED ME BACK A COUPLE OF TIMES
10 TOO.
r 11 Q. HE PUNCHED YOU BACK?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YEAH.
AND THEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES, WE WERE ARRESTED.
WERE THERE GANG ALLEGATIONS ATTACHED TO THAT?

r~ 16 A. NO, THERE WAS NO GANG ALLEGATIONS OR ANYTHING
17 LIKE THAT.
r 18
19
Q. THE POLICE WEREN'T ACCUSING YOU OF DOING IT FOR
THE BENEFIT OF THE GANG OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

[ 20 A. NO, NOTHING LIKE THAT.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
FINALLY YOU PLED TO A 245, RIGHT?
YES. I THINK IT WAS ASSAULT WITH GREAT BODILY
[ 23 INJURY.
24 Q. ASSAULT WITH DEADLY FORCE?
[ 25 A. SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YES.
26 Q. THERE WAS ACTUALLY NOT A GREAT BODILY INJURY.
r 27 A. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I DON'T REALLY RECALL. I
r 28 KNOW JUST SOME TYPE OF ASSAULT, YES.
r
l
2456
, J
1 Q. YOU'RE NOT AN EXPERT IN THE PENAL CODE.
2 A. NO, I'M NOT AT ALL. l

3 Q. WHY DID YOU PLEAD GUILTY?
4 A. WELL, I MEAN, I WAS GUILTY OF GETTING INTO A l

FIGHT; YOU KNOW, THERE WASN'T NO HIDING THAT. I MEAN,
5
6 IT WASN'T MY PROUDEST MOMENT, OF COURSE.

l
7
8
BUT WE WERE READY TO TAKE IT TO TRIAL, BECAUSE
WE WERE GETTING CHARGED WITH SOMETHING THAT WASN'T

1
1
9
10
11
ACCURATE, AND, YOU KNOW, ONCE THE WITNESSES CAME FORWARD
AND SAID THEIR STATEMENTS, IT BECAME PRETTY APPARENT TO
THE PROSECUTOR THAT THEY WEREN'T TELLING THE TRUTH.
AND HE OFFERED ME A PLEA DEAL OF SIGN UP FOR

,
12
13 I FORGOT THE PENAL CODE SECTION --AND WHAT'S THAT 1

14
15
CALLED, YOU KNOW, SUMMARY PROBATION, WHICH IS INFORMAL
PROBATION.
1
16
17
Q.
A.
DID YOU HAVE A PROBATION OFFICER?
NO. INFORMAL PROBATION IS PROBATION WHERE

1
18 THERE'S NOBODY LOOKING OVER YOU. I WASN'T ASSIGNED A l
19 PROBATION OFFICER. PRETTY MUCH, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND,
20 YOUR NAME IS PUT LIKE ON A LIST, AND IT'S PRETTY MUCH l

21 HELD RIGHT HERE IN THE COURT. IT'S NOT DEALT BY THE
22 PROBATION DEPARTMENT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

l
23
24
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, ASIDE FROM THIS FIGHT IN
7-ELEVEN, DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER VIOLENT FELONY

1
25
26
CONVICTIONS ANYWHERE?
1
A. NO.
27 Q. EVER HAD ANY GUN CONVICTIONS ON YOUR RECORD? l

28 A. NEVER.
1
l
r 2457
r 1 Q. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CAUGHT WITH A GUN?
r 2
3
A. I'VE NEVER EVEN BEEN CAUGHT WITH A ROCK OR A
STICK OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, NO.
[ 4 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY NAMED
r 5
6
EDWIN QUINTANILLA.
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
WHO IS THAT?
THAT IS JONATHAN QUINTANILLA'S LITTLE BROTHER,
r 9
10
WHICH IS ALSO A CLOSE FRIEND OF MINE.
Q. MR. QUINTANILLA WAS MURDERED, RIGHT?
r 11 A. YES, HE WAS.
12 Q. WHERE WERE YOU JUST BEFORE THAT HAPPENED?
l 13 A. RIGHT BEFORE HE GOT SHOT OR THAT DAY?
r 14
15
Q.
A.
THAT DAY.
THAT DAY I WAS AT A FRIEND OF MINE, A FAMILY
r 16
17
FRIEND, ACTUALLY.
HIS HOUSE.
HIS NAME IS CARLOS HANES. I WAS AT
r 18 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED?
r 19
20
A.
SISTER.
I GOT A CALL FROM MARLA, WHICH IS EDWIN'S OLDER
r
~
21 Q. WHAT'S HER LAST NAME?
22 A. QUINTANILLA. AND SHE WAS PRETTY MUCH TELLING
r 23
24
ME THAT SHE HAD GOTTEN IN AN ARGUMENT OR SOME KIND OF
ALTERCATION WITH HER HUSBAND.
r 25
26
Q.
A.
WHAT DID SHE WANT YOU TO DO?
SHE WANTED TO TALK. SHE HAS A LOT OF ISSUES,
r 27 YOU KNOW, AND AT THIS TIME HER TWO OLDER BROTHERS WERE
28 INCARCERATED. AND THAT WASN'T THE FIRST TIME SHE
r
r
2458
l
l
1 ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, CALLED, YOU KNOW, TO TALK TO ME
2 ABOUT PROBLEMS. 1
3 Q. SO BASED ON HER PHONE CALL, WHAT DID YOU DO?
4 A. I WAS BUSY AT THE TIME, SO I ASKED HER -- l

5 PRETTY MUCH TOLD HER TO CALL ME BACK. AND SHE ENDED UP
6 CALLING ME BACK, AND WHEN SHE CALLED ME BACK, SHE TOLD

l
7
8
ME SHE WAS AT ONE OF EDWIN'S FRIENDS' HOUSE, AND SHE
PRETTY MUCH STATED SHE STILL NEEDED TO TALK TO ME.

l
9 Q. SO WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT? 1
10
11
A. I ASKED HER WHERE SHE WAS AT. SHE TOLD ME
WHERE SHE WAS AT, AND, YOU KNOW, I WENT DOWN THERE AND I
,
- j
12 MET UP WITH HER.
13 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO? 1

14
15
A. I THINK IT'S ON T STREET OR TEAK, ONE OF THE
TWO, IN BETWEEN 37TH AND 38TH. IT WAS ONE OF EDWIN'S

l
16
17
OLD FRIENDS' HOUSE.
HOUSE WAS AT.

AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THE
SHE HAD TO TELL ME. BUT I THINK HIS NAME

l
18 WAS HEX -- HECTOR. THEY CALLED HIM HEX. l
19 Q. DID YOU KNOW HIM AT THE TIME?
20 A. NO, I DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE WHO HE WAS. 1

22 A. EDWIN WAS THERE WITH A HANDFUL OF YOUNGER KIDS

l
23
24
AROUND HIS AGE, MAYBE A COUPLE YOUNGER.
Q. WAS THAT SOMEBODY NAMED DOWNER?

1
25 A. THAT WAS SOMEBODY NAMED DOWNER. MOISES WAS l
26 THERE.
27 Q. MOISES LOPEZ? l
28 A. YES, MOISES LOPEZ. AND I DON'T RECALL THE
l
l
[
2459
r 1 OTHER KIDS' NAMES.
r 2 Q. HOW WELL DID YOU KNOW MOISES LOPEZ?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
TO THAT DAY I NEVER MET HIM BEFORE.
DID YOU SEE HIM AROUND AFTER THAT DAY?
[ 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH, I SEEN HIM AROUND PLENTY OF TIMES.
WHAT DID YOU KNOW HIM AS?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
SMOKEY.
WHO INTRODUCED YOU TO HIM AS THAT?
r 9
10 THAT.
A. I DON'T RECALL WHO INTRODUCED ME TO HIM AS
I JUST KNOW THAT AFTER THIS INCIDENT HAPPENS, WE
r 11 WERE TRYING TO GET AHOLD OF EVERYBODY THAT WAS WITH
12 EDWIN AT THE TIME TO GET THE RIGHT STORY, THE TRUE STORY
~. 13 ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO HIM, AND THAT'S JUST WHAT
[ 14 HIS NAME WAS BROUGHT UP TO BE.
15 Q. LET'S BACK UP FOR A MINUTE.
t 16
17 WHAT DO
AT SOME TIME YOU'RE HANGING OUT AT THIS PARTY.
r 18 A. IT WASN'T A PARTY. BUT EDWIN AND HIS FRIENDS,
r 19
20
THEY KEPT COMING AND GOING, YOU KNOW, LEAVING AND COMING
BACK, YOU KNOW. I NEVER ASKED WHERE THEY WERE GOING,
r 21
22
BUT
Q. ONE OF THE TIMES THEY HAD LEFT, WHAT HAPPENED?
r 23
24
A. THAT WOULD BE THE LAST TIME THEY LEFT.
LEFT, AND A FEW MINUTES AFTER THEY LEFT, MARLA TOLD ME

THEY
[ 25 SHE HAD TO GO AROUND THE CORNER TO MEET ONE OF HER
26 FRIENDS, AND SHE SAID SHE WAS ONLY GOING TO BE GONE

( 27 LIKE, YOU KNOW, A FEW MINUTES. AND, YOU KNOW, PRETTY
r 28 MUCH RIGHT AFTER SHE LEFT, I HEARD A GUNSHOT.
r
2460
l
l
1 Q. BASED ON THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
2 A. BASED ON THAT -- I HEARD A GUNSHOT, AND WHEN I l

3 LOOKED DOWN THE STREET, I SEEN ACTUALLY ONE OF MY
l
4
6
FRIENDS, NAME IS D'ANTE, HE CAME RUNNING UP TO ME AND HE
WAS LIKE,
STREET."
"HEY, THEY SHOT ONE OF YOUR FRIENDS DOWN THE ,
7
8
AND I ASKED HIM WHO, AND HE SAID HE DIDN'T
KNOW, BUT HE TOLD ME THAT THE PERSON THAT GOT SHOT WAS
l
9 WEARING A BLACK HOODIE.
Q. AND DID YOU KNOW WHICH ONE OF THEM WAS WEARING
l
10
11 A BLACK HOODIE? l
12 A. EDWIN WAS WEARING A BLACK HOODIE.
13 Q. SO WHEN YOU LEARNED THAT INFORMATION, WHAT DID

1
14
15
YOU DO?
A. I JUMPED IN THE CAR, AND WHERE WE WERE AT IS

l
16
17
LIKE IN THE MIDDLE OF A BLOCK BETWEEN 38TH AND 37TH.
DROVE IN THE DIRECTION THEY CAME FROM AND I STOPPED AT

I
1
18 THE STOP SIGN AT -- I STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THIS l
19 SHOOTING HAD OCCURRED.
20 WHILE I STOPPED AT THE STOP SIGN, I LOOKED TO 1

21 THE RIGHT. I COULD SEE EDWIN -- NOT EDWIN, BUT SMOKEY
22 AND DOWNER, AND ONCE THEY SEEN ME THEY STARTED FLAGGING

l
23
24
ME DOWN.
Q. WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN THEY FLAGGED YOU DOWN?

l
25
26
A. WELL, I MADE A RIGHT TURN AND I PULLED UP
DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM THEM. WHEN I PULLED UP DIRECTLY

1
27 ACROSS FROM THEM, I COULD SEE EDWIN LAYING ON THE 1
28 GROUND.
l
1
[
2461
r 1 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU LOOKED AT HIM?
r 2 A. I GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND I RAN OVER TO THEM AND
r
3 I WAS TRYING TO TALK TO EDWIN. I WAS TRYING TO, YOU
4 KNOW-- JUST TRYING TO SEE IF HE WAS OKAY. I WAS
r 5
6
BASICALLY JUST TELLING HIM, "COME ON, GET UP, LET'S GO,"
YOU KNOW, "WE'LL GO TO THE HOSPITAL," SOMETHING LIKE
[ 7 THAT.
8 Q. WHERE WAS HE SHOT?
r 9
10
A. WELL, AT FIRST I DIDN'T KNOW BECAUSE HE WASN'T
RESPONDING TO ME WHEN I WAS TALKING TO HIM, AND, YOU
[ 11 KNOW, ONCE I SEEN HE WASN'T RESPONDING, YOU KNOW, HE WAS
r 12
13
FACING THE GROUND, SO WHEN I GRABBED HIM,
OVER, I COULD SEE HE HAD A HOLE IN HIS FACE.
I TURNED HIM
[ 14 Q. HE HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE FACE?
15 A. HE HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE FACE, YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHAT WERE SMOKEY AND DOWNER DOING AT THIS TIME?
THEY JUST LOOKED SHOCKED, YOU KNOW, JUST
r 18 STANDING THERE, LIKE PARALYZED. I MEAN, THEY COULDN'T
r 19
20
SPEAK, ANYTHING.
Q.
THEY WERE JUST, YOU KNOW, SHOCKED.
SO WHAT DID YOU DO TO TRY TO GET HIM OUT OF
r 21
22
THERE?
A. YOU KNOW, I PANICKED. YOU KNOW, I'VE NEVER
[ 23 SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE, YOU KNOW. THE FIRST
24 THING THAT CAME TO MIND WAS, YOU KNOW, NEEDED TO GET HIM
r 25
26
SOME KIND OF MEDICAL ATTENTION. SO MY FIRST REACTION
WAS TO GET HIM IN THE CAR AS FAST AS WE COULD.
[ 27 Q. WHAT WAS MARLA DOING?
r 28 A. MARLA WASN'T THERE YET.
r
1 Q. WHEN DID SHE ARRIVE?
2462
,
l
l
2 A. ONCE I SEEN HE WAS SHOT IN THE FACE, I TRIED TO l

3 PICK HIM UP. I COULDN'T PICK HIM UP. I ASKED THE TWO
l
4
5
LITTLE KIDS THAT WERE THERE TO HELP ME.
PICK HIM UP.
THEY HELPED ME
WE GOT HALFWAY ACROSS THE STREET AND MARLA , j
6 PULLS UP.
7
8
Q.
A.
ONCE MARLA PULLED UP, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
SHE STARTED FREAKING OUT, SCREAMING AND STUFF.
1
9
10
I CAN'T -- YOU KNOW, I CAN'T REALLY REMEMBER WHAT SHE
WAS SAYING. I REMEMBER SHE WAS YELLING; I WAS YELLING;
,
l
11
12
13
IT WAS CHAOS. WE CARRIED EDWIN TO HER CAR -- SHE HAD A
MINIVAN AT THE TIME -- AND WE LAID HIM IN THE BACK OF
THE MINIVAN AND I TOLD HER --
, j.'
14
15
Q.
A.
WHO IS "WE"?
ME, THE LITTLE KID DOWNER, AND MOISES LOPEZ.
l
16 Q. OKAY.
1
17
18
A. WE GOT HIM IN THE CAR -- IN HER VAN, AND DOWNER
AND MOISES, THEY TRIED TO GET IN THE VAN TO GO WITH HER,
,.
19 RIGHT? BUT I TOLD THEM TO GET OUT. I TOLD MARLA TO GO
20 TO THE HOSPITAL. l
21 SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T KNOW HOW. I TOLD HER
22 PRETTY MUCH JUST TO GET ON THE 15 AND GET OFF ON
l
23
24
UNIVERSITY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT I WAS GOING TO
BE RIGHT BEHIND HER. SO ONCE WE GOT IN THE CAR AND SHE
1
25 DROVE OFF, I TURNED AROUND, AND, YOU KNOW, MOISES AND l
26 DOWNER -- THEY WERE STILL STANDING THERE LIKE, YOU KNOW,
27 IN SHOCK, PRETTY MUCH, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT ME LIKE, l
28 "WHAT NEXT?"
l
l
r 2463
r 1 SO I TOLD THEM, "TAKE OFF," YOU KNOW, "GET OUT
r 2 OF HERE," YOU KNOW, AND I JUMPED IN THE CAR, TRIED TO
r
3 KEEP UP WITH MARLA, BUT I COULDN'T KEEP UP WITH HER.
4 SHE WAS DRIVING -- SHE WAS DRIVING TOO CRAZY.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
SO WHERE DID YOU GO?
I WENT TO MY FRIEND'S HOUSE. HE LIVES ON
r 7
8
EL CAJON BOULEVARD.
Q.
HIS NAME IS HECTOR.
HECTOR IS NOT HEX WHO YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
r 9 EARLIER.
r
10 A. NO, NO. HECTOR IS A VERY COMMON NAME FOR
11 HISPANICS.
r 12
13
Q. BUT I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY THAT YOU WENT TO
SOMEBODY NAMED HECTOR'S HOUSE, AND YOU WERE AT SOMEBODY
r 14
15
NAMED HEX'S HOUSE, RIGHT?
A. YES.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
TWO DIFFERENT PLACES.
TOTALLY TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
r 18 Q. TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
r 19
20
A. YES. SO WHEN I GOT THERE, I TOLD HIM WHAT
HAPPENED, AND, YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME I WAS, YOU KNOW
r 21
22
THERE WAS A LOT GOING THROUGH MY MIND, AND I ASKED HIM
IF HE COULD DRIVE ME TO THE HOSPITAL, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE
r 23
24
I WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH EDWIN.
Q. AND SO DID YOU?
r '25 A. NO. ACTUALLY, WE SPENT ABOUT THE BETTER PART
r 26
27
OF ABOUT SIX HOURS DRIVING FROM HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL,
PRETTY MUCH IN A CIRCLE, TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT
r 28 HAPPENED TO EDWIN OR TO SEE IF WE COULD EVEN FIND THEM.
r
2464
l
l
1 WHEN SOMEBODY GOES TO THE HOSPITAL FOR TRAUMA,
2 THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RELEASE ANY INFORMATION, SO WE 1
3 COULDN'T GET ANY INFORMATION TO WHERE HE WAS AT, WHAT
4 HOSPITAL, OR IF HE EVEN MADE IT TO THE HOSPITAL. l
5
6
Q.
HAPPENED?
AT ONE POINT, HOW DID YOU FIND OUT WHAT
l
7
8
A. I WOULD SAY SOMETIME AFTER, LIKE 4:00 IN THE
MORNING, MARLA CALLED ME AND TOLD ME THAT HER -- YOU
l
9 KNOW, THAT HER BROTHER WAS BRAIN DEAD, PRETTY MUCH DEAD, l
10 THAT THEY WANTED TO PULL THE PLUG.
11 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, MR. DOMINGUEZ: WHEN YOU l
12 WERE STANDING THERE IN THE STREET WITH TWO KIDS AND
13 EDWIN AND HE WAS SHOT IN THE FACE, WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST
14
15
CALL THE POLICE?
A. YOU KNOW WHAT? I THINK ABOUT THAT A LOT. BUT,
l
16 YOU KNOW, I PANICKED. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME I WAS EVER
l
17 PUT IN THAT SITUATION. YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS
18 THE RIGHT THING OR THE WRONG THING TO DO, BUT I l
19 PANICKED.
20 THAT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT CAME TO MIND, WAS 1
21 JUST GETTING HIM SOME HELP AS FAST AS WE COULD, AND, YOU
22 KNOW, I CHOSE TO GET HIM IN THE CAR AND TRY TO GET HIM
l
23
24
TO A HOSPITAL AS FAST AS WE COULD.
Q. HOW DID YOU FEEL TOWARDS MOISES LOPEZ AND
1
25 DOWNER? AND JUST TO CLARIFY, DO YOU KNOW DOWNER'S REAL l
26 NAME?
27 A. NO. I NEVER EVEN KNEW MOISES'S REAL NAME UNTIL l
28 ALL THIS CAME ABOUT.
l
1
r 2465
[
1 Q. "THIS" BEING THIS TRIAL, THESE CHARGES?
[ 2 A. THIS TRIAL, THIS CASE, THESE CHARGES.
r 3
4
Q. HOW DID YOU FEEL TOWARDS MOISES AND DOWNER
AFTER THE SHOOTING OF EDWIN QUINTANILLA?
[ 5 A. HOW DID I FEEL TOWARDS THEM?

6 Q. CORRECT.
r'l'?l
i
7 A. I DIDN'T FEEL ANYTHING TOWARDS THEM. I FELT
SORRY FOR THEM, YOU KNOW, FOR HAVING TO WITNESS
r
8
9 SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT AS FAR AS FEELING ANYTHING
r 10
11
TOWARDS THEM -- FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THAT WHOLE
SITUATION COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.
['WI
12 Q. WERE YOU ANGRY AT THEM AT ALL?
i
l
13 A. NO, NEVER.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHY NOT?
BECAUSE IT WASN'T THEIR FAULT WHAT HAPPENED.
~
I
16 Q. DID EITHER OF THEM DO ANYTHING WRONG, IN YOUR
17 OPINION?
18 A. NO.
19 Q. LET'S GO TO THE FACTS OF THIS CASE, OKAY,
20 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. DO YOU NEED A SECOND TO GET A GLASS OF WATER?
fWI'1
I
23 A. YES.
24 Q. OKAY. TAKE A SECOND.
25 DURING THE DAY THAT MOISES LOPEZ PASSED AWAY --
26 DO YOU REMEMBER THAT DAY?

27 A. YES, I DO.
28 Q. HOW WELL DO YOU REMEMBER IT?
2466
,
I
1 A. NOT VERY WELL. ~

I
j
2 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING DURING THE DAY?
3 A. EARLIER ON IN THAT DAY, I WENT TO THE STUDIO. ~
,
I
4 I WAS IN THE STUDIO FOR MAYBE AN HOUR OR SO, MAYBE AN
5 HOUR OR TWO IN THE MORNING.
6 Q. WHO WERE YOU WITH?

~
7 A. I WAS BY MYSELF AT FIRST, AND THEN I GOT A CALL i
8 FROM CHRISTIAN AND I TOLD HIM WHERE I WAS AT, AND HE

~
I
9 CAME BY WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND.
10 Q. SIRIA? ~
,
i
11 A. YES.
12 Q. SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
13
14
A.
Q.
CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
SIRIA FORD?
, I
15 A. SIRIA FORD.
16 Q. AND WHERE DID YOU GO? l I
17 A. WE WERE THERE -- WE WERE STILL AT WE WAS AT
18 THE STUDIO FOR A WHILE, AND THEN WE LEFT. WE LEFT AND
19 WE WERE JUST HANGING OUT, DRINKING SOME BEER.
20 Q. WHERE WERE YOU HANGING OUT?
21 A. WE WERE AT A FRIEND OF MINE NAMED FILIPE'S
22 HOUSE.
23 Q. WHAT WAS GOING ON? DID YOU HAVE PLANS WITH

24 SOMEBODY ELSE?
25 A. I WAS SUPPOSED TO MEET UP WITH SOMEBODY EARLIER
26 THAT DAY. HER NAME IS DIANA BANUELOS.
27 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HER,

28 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r
r
2467
r 1
2
A.
Q.
SHE WAS A GIRL I WAS DATING AT THE TIME.
DATING ON THE SIDE?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YES.
YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO MEET UP WITH HER?
5 A. YES, I WAS.
6 Q. WHAT DID SHE DO TO TRY TO FACILITATE THOSE
7 PLANS?
8 A. SHE WAS CALLING ME THROUGHOUT THE DAY.
r J
r 9 Q. WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN SHE CALLED?
r I
10
11
A.
Q.
IGNORING HER CALLS.
WHY?
12 A. I CAN'T REALLY SAY WHY. I JUST WAS IGNORING
13 "HER CALLS.
r 14
15
Q.
NIGHT.
AND AT SOME POINT YOU ENDED UP AT THE PARK THAT
16 A. YES.
17 Q. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
18 A. LIKE I SAID, WE WERE AT MY FRIEND FILIPE'S
~
I
19 HOUSE, AND HE HAD TO LEAVE FOR SOME REASON, SO I CALLED
!
20 MS. BANUELOS AND TOLD HER THAT, YOU KNOW, I PRETTY MUCH
rm'
I 21 WAS GOING TO NEED A RIDE BACK TO MY CAR. SHE SAID SHE
22 WAS ALREADY LEAVING HER HOUSE, AND I JUST TOLD HER TO
23 MEET ME AT OCEAN VIEW PARK.
24 Q. WHO DROVE YOU TO OCEAN VIEW PARK?
25 A. CHRIS AND HIS GIRLFRIEND. CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ
26 AND SIRIA FORD.
27 Q. WHERE DID YOU PARK WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
28 A. WE PARKED IN THE ALLEY BEHIND THOSE TREES RIGHT
, j
2468
,
~
!
i
1 THERE.
3
Q. DO YOU WANT TO LET ME JUST ASK YOU:
PROSECUTION 2, WOULD IT BE HERE NEAR THE TOP OF THE

ON
,
4 EXHIBIT?
5 A. TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THEM.
6 Q. MORE AROUND HERE?
7 A. MAYBE A LITTLE HIGHER. SOMEWHERE RIGHT AROUND
8 THERE, BECAUSE THERE WAS A GATE RIGHT THERE. SO RIGHT

~
I
9 AROUND THAT GATE. !
10 Q. RIGHT AROUND WHERE THE GATE IS ON THE FENCE
11
12
LINE BETWEEN THE ALLEY AND THE PARK?
A.
Q.
THE GATE TO THAT THIRD LOT RIGHT THERE.
OKAY.
, I
13
~
,
14 A. RIGHT THERE SOMEWHERE. \
j
15 Q. RIGHT HERE?
16 A. RIGHT AROUND THERE, YEAH. i
17 Q. ONCE YOU GOT THERE AND PARKED, WHAT DID YOU DO?
18 A. WE GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND WE JUST STARTED
19 DRINKING, DRINKING SOME BEERS WHILE I WAITED.
20 Q. AND HOW SOON AFTER DID MS. BANUELOS SHOW UP?
21 A. ANYWHERE FROM LIKE 10 TO 15 MINUTES.
22 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN SHE SHOWED UP?

~
23 A. WHEN SHE PULLED UP, I STARTED WALKING DOWN THE I
24 ALLEY TO MEET UP WITH HER. SHE STARTED WALKING UP, AND

i
25 ONCE WE MET UP, SHE WAS UPSET, SO WE STARTED ARGUING.
26 Q. WHY WAS SHE UPSET?
27 A. BECAUSE WE WERE SUPPOSED TO MEET UP EARLIER

28 THAT DAY. ~
r 2469
r
r
1 Q. DID SHE CONFRONT YOU ABOUT THIS?
2 A. YEAH.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT SHE SAID?
NOT EXACTLY, NO.
r l
5
6
Q.
WHERE?
SO WHEN SHE MET YOU, YOU SAID SHE MET YOU
r
I 7 A. IN THE -- GOING UP -- LIKE AT THE BEGINNING OF
i
8 THE ALLEY. ONCE I SEEN HER PULL UP, I STARTED WALKING

r
I 9 DOWN ALREADY.
r L
10
11
Q.
A.
DID SHE WALK UP THE ALLEY AT ALL?
NOT ALL THE WAY UP THE ALLEY, JUST THE
r 12
13
BEGINNING OF IT.
Q. AND THEN HOW LONG WERE YOU ARGUING THERE FOR?
r
L
14 A. NOT LONG. WE STARTED ARGUING IN THE ALLEY, AND
15 THEN WE WALKED DOWN TOWARDS HER CAR, GOT IN HER CAR,

r
I
16 ARGUED FOR A LITTLE BIT MORE.
r 17
18
Q.
A.
WHERE IN THE CAR WERE YOU SITTING?
I WAS IN THE PASSENGER SEAT.
19 Q. WHERE WAS SHE SITTING?
20 A. THE DRIVER'S SEAT.
21 Q. AND HOW LONG DID YOU ARGUE IN THE CAR?
22 A. ANYWHERE FROM, YOU KNOW, 10 MINUTES TO HALF AN

r
I 23 HOUR. I DON'T KNOW. IT'S JUST LIKE A LONG TIME AGO.
24 Q. LET'S BACK UP A MOMENT, MR. DOMINGUEZ.

~
I
25 WHEN YOU FIRST SHOWED UP, HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE
26 IN THE PARK?
27 A. IN THE ACTUAL PARK? THERE WAS A BIG CROWD OF
28 PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK.

, J
2470
, J
1 Q. DID YOU RECOGNIZE --

2 A. NO.
l j
3 Q. AND WHEN YOU WENT DOWN TO -- LET'S GO BACK TO

4 WHERE WE WERE WHEN YOU WERE IN THE CAR ARGUING WITH
5 MS. BANUELOS. AT SOME POINT, WHAT DO YOU DO?
6 A. WE GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND WALKED TOWARDS THE
1
,
7 BACK OF IT TO -- WE WERE STILL ARGUING A LITTLE BIT, AND ,i
8 AT THAT POINT, YOU KNOW, I WAS READY TO LEAVE.

9 Q. WHEN YOU WERE ARGUING DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE !
10 ALLEY, COULD YOU SEE UP THE ALLEY?

11 A. YEAH, YOU COULD SEE UP THE ALLEY.
12 Q. COULD YOU SEE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK WHERE
13 IT'S BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED WITH A RED CIRCLE?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WHAT WAS GOING ON UP THERE?
16 A. YOU COULD SEE THAT THERE WAS A FIGHT GOING ON.
1 I
,
)
17 Q. DID THIS BOTHER YOU?

I
18 A. WELL, ONCE I LOOKED UP THE ALLEY, I COULD STILL
19 SEE SIRIA AND CHRIS -- YOU KNOW, STILL SEE THEM BY THE ~I
\
20 CAR, SO NOT REALLY. IT DIDN'T CONCERN ME.

21 Q. IS THIS COMMON TO SEE FIGHTS?
22 A. YEAH, ALL THE TIME.
23 Q. SO WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WERE STANDING DOWN AT
24 THE BOTTOM OF THE ALLEY THAT CHANGED THINGS?
25 A. WE HEARD GUNSHOTS. A GUNSHOT WENT OFF, AND
26 WHEN I LOOKED UP TOWARDS THE PARK WHERE THE COMMOTION
27 WAS GOING ON, IT WAS JUST A CROWD OF PEOPLE JUST
28 RUNNING. I I
r 2471
r 1
r
Q. SO WHAT DID YOU DO?
2 A. WE RAN.
r
t
3
4
Q.
A.
WHEN YOU SAY "WE," WHO?
ME AND MS. BANUELOS. WE RAN.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE RUNNING?
I DIDN'T LOOK BACK.
r 7
8
Q.
RUNNING?
TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE
r 9 A. YEAH. WELL, WHEN I LOOKED UP AT THE PARK, YOU
r 10
11
COULD SEE EVERYBODY JUST TAKE OFF, AND WE TOOK OFF.
DIDN'T SEE NOBODY ON THE ACTUAL STREET IN FRONT OF US,

I
il 12 NO.
13 Q. WHICH ROUTE DID YOU RUN?
r 14
15
A. WE WENT DOWN FRANKLIN, AND THEN WHERE FRANKLIN
TURNS INTO CUYAMACA AND FRANKLIN VEERS TO THE LEFT, WE
r 16 WENT DOWN THAT WAY.
17 Q. LET ME CLARIFY THIS. IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT

r 18 PROSECUTION'S 2, FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE ALLEY DID YOU GO
19 LEFT ON FRANKLIN, MY LEFT, OR DID YOU GO TO MY RIGHT?

i
!
20 A. YOUR LEFT.
r 21
22
Q. AND YOU RAN -- FRANKLIN,
BENDS WHAT WOULD BE TO THE RIGHT.

IF YOU GO TO THE LEFT,
~
! 23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND THEN THERE'S A FORK IN THE ROAD, RIGHT?
25 A. YES. WE WENT LEFT ON THE FORK.
26 Q. OKAY. WHERE DID YOU END UP?
27 A. OCEAN VIEW BOULEVARD.
28 Q. AND WHAT?
i
, I
,
j
2472
1 A. AND LIKE MARKETPLACE CENTER DRIVE OR SOMETHING

l
2
3
4
LIKE THAT.
Q.
A.
IS THERE A LANDMARK THAT YOU REMEMBER?
THERE'S A HOME DEPOT, A 24 HOUR FITNESS, SOME
,
5 BANKS, SOME RESTAURANTS AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
6 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
7 A. WELL, WHEN I WAS RUNNING, WHEN I GOT TO LIKE
8 OCEAN VIEW, I CALLED MY BROTHER AND I ASKED HIM FOR A
9 RIDE.
10 Q. SO YOU HAD SLOWED DOWN AT THAT TIME? ,., I
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT DID YOUR BROTHER SAY WHEN YOU ASKED HIM
13 FOR A RIDE?
14 A. HE JUST ASKED ME WHERE WAS I AT. I DIDN'T
15
16
REALLY MAKE A BIG FUSS ABOUT IT.
COULD PICK ME UP.
I JUST ASKED HIM IF HE
HE SAID, "WHERE ARE YOU AT?" AND I
,
17 ASKED HIM IF HE COULD PICK ME UP BY THE HOME DEPOT. HE
~ I
18 SAID, "I'M ON MY WAY."

19 Q. WHAT IS YOUR BROTHER'S NAME?
20 A. VICTOR. VICTOR DOMINGUEZ.
l J
21 Q. WHERE DID YOUR BROTHER TAKE YOU?

22 A. TO MY STUDIO IN SPRING VALLEY.
23 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT THERE? DID
24 YOU STAY THE NIGHT?
~
I
25 A. NO. I WENT HOME.
26 Q. DID THE -- THE NEXT MORNING, WERE YOU STILL
27 WITH DIANA?
28 A. I SEEN HER IN THE MORNING. I MET UP WITH HER ~
I
r 2473
r
r 1
2
IN THE MORNING.
Q. WHERE DID YOU TAKE HER?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
TO PICK UP HER CAR.
WHERE?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
OCEAN VIEW PARK.
AND WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU GOT THERE WITH
r
iI 7 REGARD TO HER?
8 A. IT WAS GONE.
r 9 Q. SO DID YOU LATER LEARN THAT IT HAD BEEN TOWED?
r 10
11
A.
Q.
YES.
LET'S MOVE FORWARD ABOUT EIGHT MONTHS --
r 12
13
A.
Q.
OKAY.
18 MONTHS APPROXIMATELY.
r 14
15
A.
Q.
OKAY.
DO YOU REMEMBER FEBRUARY 18, 2010?
r 16 A. YES, I DO.
r 17
18
Q.
STREET?
WHAT WERE YOU DOING ON DIVISION AND BOUNDARY
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I WAS JUST EXITING THE FREEWAY AT THE TIME.
AND WHO WAS WITH YOU?
ri 21 A. CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
22 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED?
r 23 A. I WAS PULLED OVER. I SEEN THE RED AND BLUE

24 LIGHTS BEHIND ME, SO I PULLED OVER.
r 25 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHY YOU WERE BEING PULLED OVER?
26 A. I THOUGHT MAYBE I WAS SPEEDING OR, I DON'T
27 KNOW, SOME TRAFFIC STOP OR SOMETHING.
r' 28 Q. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WERE PULLED OVER?

I
r
1
2474
l
1 A. WHEN I WAS PULLED OVER, COP CARS CAME FROM ALL ,
,
I
2 OVER. THERE WAS LIKE 20 COP CARS THERE. i
3 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED?

I
4 A. I WAS ARRESTED.
5 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU'VE BEEN SITTING THROUGH THIS
7
TRIAL FOR JUST AS LONG AS EVERYBODY ELSE IN THIS
COURTROOM.
,
8
9
DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU'VE BEEN SITTING IN THAT
SEAT FOR THE PAST TWO WEEKS?

,
10 A. YES, I DO.
11 Q. DID YOU SHOOT MOISES LOPEZ?

l J
12 A. NO.
1
13 Q. DID YOU BEAT UP MOISES LOPEZ?
r8f
14 A. NO. l
]
15 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED
16 TO MOISES THAT NIGHT? l

17 A. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
18
19
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
NOTHING FURTHER.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI, THANK YOU. ,

,
J
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION I
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU SAID YOU WERE LOOKING FOR
24 SMOKEY SO YOU COULD GET THE FACTS OF HOW LIL CROOKS

25 DIED, RIGHT?
26 A. WE WERE TRYING TO GET AHOLD OF THE KIDS THAT

27 WERE WITH HIM, YES.
28 Q. SO WHEN HE SHOWED UP IN OCEAN VIEW PARK ON
r 2475
r
r 1
2
SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, I'M ASSUMING YOU WENT AND GOT THE
FACTS AT THAT TIME.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
WE ALREADY HAD THE FACTS BY THEN, MR. TROCHA.
OH, SO YOU MET MR. LOPEZ BETWEEN HIS DEATH AND
r 5
6
THE DEATH OF LIL CROOKS?
A. WE TALKED TO EVERYBODY. AFTER EDWIN PASSED
r
i
7 AWAY, WE TALKED TO EVERYBODY THAT WAS WITH HIM, YES.
8 Q. WELL, THE ONLY TIME YOU SAID YOU MET HIM WAS
r 9 THE TIME LIL CROOKS DIED, CORRECT?
10 A. I SAID THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I MET HIM.
r 11 Q. HOW MANY OTHER TIMES DID YOU MEET HIM?
r
[
12 A. DID I MEET HIM? I TALKED TO HIM -- WE TALKED
13 TO HIM ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH EDWIN, AND AFTER THAT I
r 14
15
WOULD SEE HIM ON A REGULAR BASIS.
Q. IN SHELLTOWN?
r 16 A. YEAH, WHENEVER I WAS DOWN THERE. HE ACTUALLY

17 WOULD ALWAYS BE ON HIS BIKE, RIDING AROUND THERE.
r
l 18 Q. AND YOU KNEW THIS BECAUSE YOU WERE IN SHELLTOWN
r 19
20
THAT OFTEN?
A. NOT THAT OFTEN, BUT I GOT A FRIEND THAT LIVES
~
I
i
21 ON 39TH AND IMPERIAL, AND MOISES LOPEZ WAS HANGING
22 AROUND RAUL AGUILAR'S HOUSE THAT IS ALSO ON 39TH AND
r
i 23 IMPERIAL.
24 Q. YOU KNEW THIS BEFORE THE TRIAL?
25 A. I DIDN'T KNOW RAUL AGUILAR'S NAME. I DIDN'T
26 KNOW NONE OF THEIR NAMES.

27 Q. EVEN THOUGH HE LIVED A BLOCK AWAY FROM WHERE
28 THOSE PICTURES WITH FRANKIE SANDOVAL AND LIL CHINO WERE
~
i
!
1
2476
, _j
1 TAKEN?
2 A. WHO?
3 Q. RAUL AGUILAR.
4 A. SO WHAT'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH ME KNOWING HIM?
5 Q. YOU DIDN'T KNOW RAUL AGUILAR, BUT YOU KNEW
6 MOISES LOPEZ HANGED AT HIS HOUSE. THAT'S WHAT YOU JUST
Pml
7 TESTIFIED TO.
,
1
8 A. I KNEW FROM THIS CASE. I KNOW WHO RAUL IS NOW

9 BECAUSE OF THIS CASE, BUT AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW WHO !
10 HE WAS. I WOULD SEE HIM OUTSIDE HIS HOUSE, BUT I NEVER

11 KNEW HIS NAME.
12 Q. THE SAME WAY YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO !
!
13 SMOKEY WAS?
P'l0]
14 A. I NEVER MET SMOKEY UNTIL THE NIGHT EDWIN PASSED I
15
16
AWAY.
Q. AND THEN BETWEEN THAT TIME AND THE TIME MOISES
, I
j
17 PASSED AWAY, YOU SOMEHOW HAD THIS DISCUSSION WITH HIM.

18 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "SOMEHOW"?
19 Q. WELL, WHERE DID THIS DISCUSSION TAKE PLACE? , !
i
20 A. OVER THE PHONE.

21 Q. YOU HAD HIS PHONE NUMBER? ~
22 A. I DIDN'T HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER. SOMEBODY GOT

23 AHOLD OF HIM FOR ME. MARLA WAS THE ONE THAT WANTED TO
24 TALK TO THESE KIDS. WE GOT AHOLD OF THEM TO GET THE
25 WHOLE STORY STRAIGHT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO EDWIN,
26 BECAUSE NOBODY KNEW WHAT HAPPENED TO EDWIN.
27 ALL WE KNOW IS SOME GUY WALKED BY AND SHOT HIM
28 IN THE FACE, WHICH REALLY DIDN'T MAKE NO SENSE TO
r 2477
r 1
r
EVERYBODY, SO OF COURSE WE WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT
2 HAPPENED. AND THE ONLY WAY TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO
r 3
4
EDWIN WAS TO TALK TO THESE KIDS.
SO, YES, I TALKED TO HIM. I ASKED HIM WHAT
r 5
6
HAPPENED, AND HE TOLD ME.
THAT EVERYBODY ELSE WAS SAYING.

AND HE TOLD ME THE SAME THING
r 7
8
Q.
A.
OVER THE PHONE.
YEAH.
r
IL 9 Q. THAT SOMEONE ELSE DIALED FOR YOU.
r 10
11
A. I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T KNOW MOISES, SO HOW WOULD
I HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER?
r 12
13
Q. SO YOU MET SOMEBODY WHO DIALS THE NUMBER, HANDS
THE PHONE TO YOU, AND MOISES LOPEZ JUST TELLS YOU
r
l
14 EVERYTHING.
15 A. HOLD ON. WHEN DID I SAY I MET SOMEBODY THAT
r 16
17
DIALED THE PHONE NUMBER?
LIVES DOWN THERE.

MOISES IS FROM SHELLTOWN.
HE KNOWS A LOT OF PEOPLE DOWN THERE.

HE
I 18 I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE DOWN THERE. SO IF I WANT TO GET
r 19
20
AHOLD OF HIM, IT'S VERY EASY.
HE HANGS AROUND WITH MY FRIEND'S LITTLE
I 21
22
BROTHERS. IT'S VERY EASY TO GET AHOLD OF HIM.
LIKE I JUST MET SOME RANDOM PERSON ON THE STREET AND

YOU ACT
r! 23 SAID, "HEY, CAN YOU CALL THIS KID FOR ME SO I CAN ASK
24 HIM?" COME ON, MR. TROCHA.

r 25 Q. WELL, THEN WHO DID YOU TALK TO TO GET HIS
26 INFORMATION?
r
i
27 A. I TALKED TO MY FRIEND PETER'S BROTHER. HIS
f"'iii 28 NAME IS CARLOS.
\
rm
I
~
I
1
2478
l
1 Q. CARLOS WHO?
2 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN CARLOS WHO? l

3 Q. PETER'S BROTHER CARLOS. CARLOS WHO?
4 A. I DON'T KNOW THE LAST NAME.
5 Q. AND THIS CARLOS PERSON -- ~ I
,
j
6 A. HE'S THEIR AGE.
7 Q. CALLED MOISES LOPEZ? i

8 A. HE KNEW MOISES. HE KNEW MOISES, RAUL, ALL THEM
~I
9 KIDS. THEY LIVE ON THE SAME BLOCK.
10 Q. AND HE CALLED THIS NUMBER FOR YOU?
11 A. HE CALLED MOISES. HE GOT AHOLD OF HIM FOR ME.
12 Q. AND THEN YOU TALKED TO HIM? i:

i
13 A. I JUST ASKED HIM WHAT HAPPENED, AND HE TOLD ME
14 WHAT HAPPENED.
15 Q. AFTER ONLY HAVING MET HIM ONCE?
16 A. WHAT'S THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? 1

17 Q. THAT HE GETS A PHONE CALL FROM SOMEBODY OUT OF
18 THE BLUE AND TELLS HIM EVERYTHING ABOUT A MURDER IN
19 SHELL TOWN? i \
20 A. HE KNEW WHO I WAS, MR. TROCHA. HE MET ME.
21 OKAY? I TOLD HIM WHO I WAS. YOU KNOW, IT'S NO SECRET
22 DOWN THERE WHO I AM, MR. TROCHA. I PUT OUT CD'S. THERE
23 IS POSTERS. ALL THESE KIDS KNOW ME. HE KNOWS WHO I AM.
24 I TOLD HIM WHO I WAS. I ASKED IF HE REMEMBERED

II
25 ME. HE TOLD ME YES. I ASKED HIM IF HE COULD TELL ME !
26 WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT, AND HE TOLD ME. IT WAS NONE
27 OF -- THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE TO IT.

28 Q. SO NATURALLY WHEN YOU SHOWED UP TO THE PARK ON
r 2479
r
r 1
2
SEPTEMBER 13, 2008, HE CAME OVER AND SAID HI TO YOU
BECAUSE HE KNOWS YOU SO WELL.
r 3
4
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T EVEN SEE HIM AT THE PARK.
YOU SAW A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE PARK.
r 5
6
A. WELL, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK, MR. TROCHA.
IT'S -- THAT'S A SMALL PICTURE. IT LOOKS CLOSER THAN IT
r
I
7 REALLY IS.
8 Q. WELL, LET'S GET TO A PICTURE THAT WILL WORK.
r 9 A. LET'S GET TO ONE.
r 10
11
Q. PEOPLE'S 22, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
THE CAR YOU WERE SITTING IN, RIGHT?

THAT'S A VIEW FROM
r 12
13
A.
Q.
YES.
AND YOU COULDN'T SEE MOISES LOPEZ FROM THAT
r 14
15
DISTANCE?
A. NO. IT WAS DARK. THAT'S BRIGHT RIGHT THERE.
r 16 YOU COULD SEE A CROWD OF PEOPLE, BUT YOU COULDN'T TELL
r
17 WHO IT WAS.
18 Q. YOU COULD SEE A GROUP OF PEOPLE HERE BETWEEN
r 19
20
THE
A. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WERE RIGHT THERE.
r
I
21 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, CAN I FINISH?
22 A. YOU SURE CAN.
r 23
24
Q. BETWEEN THE BATHROOMS AND YOUR CAR, THEY'RE
SOMEWHERE IN THIS AREA. YOU COULD NOT SEE THEM, YOU'RE

r 25 SAYING; IS THAT CORRECT?
~ 26 A. THEY WERE NOT RIGHT IN THAT AREA WHERE YOU'RE

I 27 POINTING. THEY WERE SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE, BUT THEY
f%1
) 28 WEREN'T CLOSE TO THE BENCHES. EARLIER YOU WERE POINTING
!
(0\m
l.
2480
,
l
1 CLOSER TO THE BENCHES.
2 NOW WHERE YOU'RE POINTING, THEY WERE MAYBE l
3 AROUND THAT AREA. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT AREA.
l
4
5
6
BUT, NO, YOU CAN'T MAKE OUT FACES. IT'S NOT LIKE I
LOOKED OUT THERE AND, YOU KNOW, "THAT'S SO-AND-SO AND
THAT'S SO-AND-SO." TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I DIDN'T EVEN
, .I
7 CARE WHO WAS OUT THERE.

8 Q. SO WHEN YOU SAW SOMEBODY THOUGH AT A FURTHER
!
9 DISTANCE, YOU IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZED THAT IT WOULD BE
,
1
I
10 DIANA BANUELOS?
I KNEW
11 A. MR. TROCHA, I SEEN HER CAR PULLING UP.
,
J
12 WHO I WAS WAITING FOR. I KNEW WHO WAS GETTING OUT THAT I
I
13 CAR. IT'S NOT LIKE SHE PULLED UP AND I DIDN'T SEE HER
14 PULL UP AND I SEEN SOME RANDOM GIRL WALKING DOWN THE
,.,
I
15 STREET AND I SAID, "OH, YOU KNOW, THAT'S DIANA RIGHT
~
16 THERE." l
17 Q. BUT YOU COULDN'T RECOGNIZE MOISES LOPEZ?
18 A. I JUST TOLD YOU IT WAS DARK.
19 Q. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR PRIOR GANG
20 MEMBERSHIP FOR A WHILE.
l
21 A. LET'S TALK ABOUT IT, MR. TROCHA.
22 Q. EXCUSE ME?
'"9
23 A. I SAID LET'S TALK ABOUT IT. I
24
25
Q.
A.
WHEN DID YOU STOP BEING ACTIVE?
EARLY TWENTIES.
, I
I
26 Q. WHAT YEAR?
27 A. I CAN ' T -- MAYBE 2 0 0 0 . ' 98 , ' 9 9 , 2 0 0 0 , I CAN ' T
28 REMEMBER. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT YEAR.
r 2481
r \
1
r
Q. YOU WERE WORKING FOR MR. THOMPSON IN '98,
2 CORRECT?
3 A. YEAH, I WAS WORKING AT CASPER COMPANY, YES.
r 4 Q. SO WHILE YOU WERE AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER, YOU
r 5
6
WERE WORKING AT CASPER COMPANY?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q.
A.
YOU WERE ALSO MARRIED AT THE TIME, RIGHT?
YES, I WAS.
r( 9 Q. AND YOUR FIRST KID WAS ALREADY ON ITS WAY OR
r 10
11
ALREADY BORN.
A. YEAH. I WAS GOING THROUGH SOME CHANGES,
r 12
13
YEAH.
Q. ALL THIS WAS HAPPENING WHILE YOU WERE AN ACTIVE
r 14
15
GANG MEMBER.
A. YES. I SAID I WAS GOING THROUGH A LOT OF
~
) 16 CHANGES AT THAT TIME.
l
17 Q. WORKING 40 TO 60 HOURS A WEEK, YET STILL BEING

r 18 ACTIVE IN THE GANG.
r 19
20
A.
THAT.
AT CASPER? AT CASPER I WORKED WAY MORE THAN
r 21
22
Q.
A.
EVEN MORE THAN 60 HOURS A WEEK AT CASPER?
YEAH. I WOULD GO DOWN THERE ON THE WEEKENDS.
r 23
24
AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE WOULD ALL GO DOWN THERE ON THE
WEEKENDS. MY MOM LIVED ON 37TH AND Z STREET UNTIL LIKE
r
I 25 2004, SO THIS IS IN SHELLTOWN. SO I'D GO DOWN THERE ON
26 THE WEEKENDS -- FRIDAYS, SATURDAYS.
r 27 WE WOULD ACTUALLY SPEND THE NIGHT DOWN THERE,
~
l 28 BECAUSE WE LIVED IN ALPINE, AND AS SOON AS MY FRIENDS
!
[
2482
,
l
1 SEEN MY CAR PARKED OUTSIDE THE HOUSE, THEY WOULD STOP
2 BY. ONE PERSON WOULD TURN INTO TWO, TWO WOULD TURN INTO 1
3 THREE, THREE WOULD TURN INTO FOUR.
4 SO, YEAH, MY MOM LIVED IN THE AREA. WE HAD
l
trif!lI
5 SPENT THE WEEKENDS IN THE AREA, AND A LOT OF MY FRIENDS I
j
6 WOULD COME BY WHEN THEY SEEN ME AT MY MOM'S HOUSE.

7 Q. ALL WHILE BEING AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER.
8 A. WHILE BEING ACTIVE?
9 Q. YES.
10 A. YEAH. I MEAN, I WASN'T SUPER ACTIVE, BUT I WAS ~
)
I
11 STILL ACTIVE, YEAH.

12
13
Q.
A.
YOU SAID YOU STOPPED FREQUENTING THE AREA WHEN?
I STOPPED FREQUENTING THE AREA AS MUCH WHEN I
l
14 BECAME INACTIVE, BUT I STILL GOT A LOT OF TIES TO THAT
15 COMMUNITY, I STILL GOT A LOT OF FRIENDS.
16 YOU KNOW, I GOT FRIENDS THAT I COULD WALK IN 1 j
17 THEIR HOUSE WITHOUT KNOCKING AND HAVE THEIR MOM MAKE ME

18
19
20
SOMETHING TO EAT.
Q.
I GREW UP IN THAT AREA, MR. TROCHA.
WELL, WE HEARD ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS. WE HEARD
ABOUT MR. BARNES LIVING DOWN IN CHULA VISTA, RIGHT?
, I
21 A. MR. BARNES LIVES ON 46TH AND OCEAN VIEW.

22 Q. WE ALSO HEARD ABOUT MR. QUINTANILLA BEING IN
23 PRISON AS WELL, CORRECT?
24 A. YEAH.
25 Q. WHAT ABOUT VICTOR RAMOS, IS HE A FRIEND OF
26 YOURS? ~
j
27 A. HE IS A FRIEND OF MINE'S SON. J
28 Q. YOU HANG OUT WITH HIM?

[
2483
r 1 A. NO, NOT MUCH.

r 2 Q. WOULD HE KNOW WHO YOU WERE?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
YEAH, HE WOULD KNOW WHO I AM.
WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES, OBVIOUSLY I HANG OUT WITH HIM.
YOU DIDN'T GROW UP WITH HIM, THOUGH.
r 7
8
A.
Q.
NO.
HE'S MUCH YOUNGER THAN YOU.
r 9 A. HE'S ABOUT 22.

10
r Q. SO ABOUT 11 YEARS YOUNGER THAN YOU.
\
11 A. HE'S A GROWNUP.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT STONEY?
WHAT ABOUT HIM?
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHO IS HE?
HE IS A FRIEND OF MINE'S LITTLE BROTHER.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
WHICH FRIEND?
JOSEPH NIETO'S LITTLE BROTHER.
r 18 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW HIM?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
WHO?
STONEY.
r 21
22
A. I KNOW HE IS HIS LITTLE BROTHER.
HIM OTHER THAN THAT.
I DON'T KNOW
i 23 Q. DO YOU HANG OUT WITH HIM?
24 NO.
r
A.
25 Q. WHAT ABOUT GANGSTER OR LIL GANGSTER?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THAT IS.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS AT ALL?
fiil 28 A. NO.
i
2484
,
1
1 Q. OR NEVER HUNG OUT WITH HIM?
l
2
3
A. GANGSTER OR LIL GANGSTER?
NAME UNTIL YOU GUYS BROUGHT IT UP.

I NEVER HEARD THAT
,
4
5
6
Q.
A.
Q.
WHAT ABOUT SMURF?
SMURF? I KNOW WHO SMURF IS.
WHO IS SMURF?
, 1
7 A. HIS NAME IS ARTURO. I DON'T KNOW HIS LAST
8 NAME.
10
Q.
A.
HOW OLD IS HE?
LIKE 28, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, 26. ,

11
12
Q.
A.
IS HE SOMEBODY YOU GREW UP WITH?
NO.
, 't
13
14
Q.
A.
DID YOU HANG OUT WITH HIM?
DID I HANG OUT WITH HIM? NO. I MEAN, NOT ON A

, )
I
15 REGULAR BASIS. I KNEW WHO HE WAS, YEAH.

"'l
16 Q. WHAT ABOUT SMILEY? II
17 A. SMILEY?
18
19
20
Q.
A.
Q.
WHO IS SMILEY?
I DON'T KNOW NO SMILEY.
HEFTY?
, :
21 A. I DON'T KNOW HEFTY.
22 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO HEFTY IS?
23 A. I SEEN HIM IN COURT. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, I
24
25
DON'T KNOW HIM.
Q. YOU NEVER MET HIM OUTSIDE OF COURT?

, I
J
26 A. I MIGHT HAVE MET HIM, BUT IF I WOULD HAVE SEEN mJ1l

I
27 HIM ON THE STREET, I WOULDN'T KNOW WHO HIS NAME WAS. J
28 Q. HOW ABOUT CARTOON?

r 2485
r 1 A. I KNOW CARTOON.
r 2 Q. HOW DO YOU KNOW CARTOON?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
CARTOON
HOW OLD IS HE?
I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR A WHILE.
r 5
6
A.
Q.
HE'S LIKE MAYBE 28, 30.
IS HE STILL ALIVE?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CARTOON? YEAH.
DOES HE HAVE SCARS ON HIS FACE?
r 9 A. YEAH, HE HAS SCARS ON HIS FACE.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
WHEN'S THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM?
I DON'T KNOW.
r 12
13
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT LIL BLANCO?
LIL BLANCO? I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS.
r 14
15 HIM?
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THAT IS? YOU NEVER MET
r 16
17
A. I MEAN, I SEEN PICTURES. I DON'T KNOW HIM.
MEAN, IF I SEEN THESE KIDS ON THE STREET, I WOULD NEVER
I
r
I. 18 KNOW WHO THEY ARE.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT SPARROW?
SPARROW? I KNOW A SPARROW.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
WHO IS SPARROW?
I DON'T KNOW HIS NAME.
r 23
24
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW HIS REAL NAME?
IS THAT A "NO"?
r 25 A. NO.
r 26
27
Q.
A.
HOW DO YOU KNOW HIM?
HE'S MARRIED TO ONE OF MY FRIEND'S LITTLE
r
L
28 NIECES.
[
2486
1
1
1 Q. WHERE IS HE RIGHT NOW?
l
2
3
A.
Q.
HE'S IN PRISON.
HOW ABOUT CHUBS? DO YOU KNOW CHUBS? ,

4 A. NO.
,1
,
5 Q. YOU NEVER MET CHUBS?
J
6 A. NO IDEA WHO CHUBS IS.
7 Q. WHAT ABOUT SHOTGUN?
9
A.
Q.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHO SHOTGUN IS.
YOU NEVER MET HIM?

, )
10 A. I NEVER MET A SHOTGUN, NO.

1
11 Q. WHAT ABOUT LIL SPANKY?
,
,
12 A. LIL SPANKY? I DON'T KNOW WHO LIL SPANKY IS. I I
J
13 SEEN HIM IN COURT, BUT OTHER THAN THAT
,
14 Q. STALKER? WHAT ABOUT STALKER?
I
15 A. I DON'T KNOW A STALKER. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO
16 TELL YOU WHO HE WAS IF I HADN'T SEEN HIM IN COURT SO l
17 MANY TIMES. ~
.l
j
,
18 Q. PEOPLE'S 231 BEHIND YOU, EVERY NAME ON THAT
19 LIST EXCEPT FOR SMURF AND SMILEY IS IN THAT PICTURE,

\
20 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
21 A. SO YOU SAY. ~!
l
22
23
Q.
A.
SO MR. ANDRES LOPEZ SAYS, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
YOU EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS?

,.,
i
J
24 Q. SO DOES MARTHA GASCA.
25 A. MARTHA GASCA? WHAT'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH --

26 Q. SHE IDENTIFIED THE SAME PEOPLE TOO,
l
27
28
MR. DOMINGUEZ.
A. DID SHE? , I
J
r 2487
r 1 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. THAT'S NOT A

r 2 QUESTION.
3 THE COURT: WHAT'S THE QUESTION, PLEASE?
r 4 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 5
6
Q. YOU'RE SAYING YOU DIDN'T MEET HALF THE PEOPLE
IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
r 7
8
A. I SAID I DON'T KNOW THEM.
DON'T KNOW THEM.
I'VE MET THEM, BUT I
IF I SEEN ANY OF THOSE LITTLE KIDS ON
r 9 THE BOTTOM ROW TOMORROW, I WOULDN'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.
r 10
11
Q.
STUDIO.
THEY WERE OVER AT YOUR SPRING VALLEY RECORDING
r 12
13
A. IT'S A RECORDING STUDIO.
AREA ALL THE TIME.
PEOPLE FREQUENT THAT
THEY DIDN'T NEED PERMISSION FROM ME.
r 14
15
Q. HOW DID A BUNCH OF 12- OR 13-YEAR-OLDS FROM
SHELLTOWN GET OUT TO SPRING VALLEY TO YOUR HOUSE?
r 16 A. YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU HOW THEY GOT TO MY
r 17
18
HOUSE?
Q. WELL, YOU'RE THE ONE TELLING US THAT THOSE KIDS
r 19
20
ARE 12 TO 13 YEARS OLD AND THEY JUST SHOWED UP AT YOUR
HOUSE.
r
l
21
22
A. WHEN I GOT THERE, THEY WERE ALREADY THERE.
THEY DIDN'T COME WITH ME. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO
r 23
24
ASK ME, IF I GAVE THEM A RIDE?
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED
r
\ - 25 SPECULATION.
r 26
27
THE WITNESS:
LOPEZ HOW THEY GOT THERE.
YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED ANDRES
F 28 THE COURT: JUST A MOMENT.

1
r
2488
,
1
1
2
DO YOU KNOW HOW THEY GOT THERE?
THE WITNESS: I HAVE NO IDEA, YOUR HONOR.
, ~

4 BY MR. TROCHA:
5 Q. AND YOU'RE SAYING IT'S PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE ~t
J
6 FOR YOU TO HAVE HIT ANYBODY, CORRECT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
~
,
7 A. I'M RIGHT-HANDED, MR. TROCHA. MY RIGHT HAND IS l
8 BROKEN. AND, SECOND OF ALL, THERE WOULD BE NO REASON
9
10
FOR ME TO HIT ANY OF THOSE LITTLE KIDS RIGHT THERE.
Q. YOU COULDN'T HAVE USED YOUR LEFT HAND AT ALL? ,
11
12
13
A.
Q.
A.
COULD I HAVE USED MY LEFT HAND?
YOU COULD HAVE USED YOUR FEET AS WELL.
MY FEET?
I COULD HAVE.
, J
14 Q. YEAH. I J
15 A. TO WHAT, STOMP ON SOME LITTLE KIDS?
l
,
16 Q. YEAH.
17 A. WHAT WOULD BE THE REASON OF THAT?
18 Q. SAME REASON YOU DID THE SAME THING IN 2004 IN
19 7-ELEVEN.
20 A. I DIDN'T KICK ANYBODY IN 2004 IN 7-ELEVEN.
l
21 Q. YOU SURE PUNCHED SEVERAL PEOPLE. ~
!
22 A. YOU KNOW WHAT? I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE THAT
23 PICKED A FIGHT WITH THREE GUYS. OKAY? HE WAS GOING TO
24 GET HIS BUTT KICKED. I HELPED HIM OUT. LIKE I SAID, IT
25 WASN'T ONE OF MY PROUDEST MOMENTS. IT WASN'T ONE OF THE
26 SMARTEST THINGS I DID. BUT I SAID I HAD A FRIEND THAT
27
28
WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO PICK A FIGHT WITH THREE GUYS, AND WE
GOT IN A FIGHT. , i
r 2489
r 1 I MEAN, THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. IT'S NOT

r 2 LIKE I WAS, YOU KNOW, SITTING THERE, YOU KNOW, KARATE
r 3
4
CHOPPING AND KICKING PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.
SEEM LIKE IT'S SOMETHING THAT IT'S TOTALLY NOT.
YOU MAKE IT
r 5
6
Q. ISN'T THIS ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU SAID YOU HAD
GROWN OUT OF DOING THINGS WITH THE GANG?
c 7
8
A. I GOT IN A FIGHT, MR. TROCHA.
KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE GET IN FIGHTS.
IT HAPPENS.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING
YOU
r 9 THAT WAS PLANNED. IT WAS NOT LIKE WE GOT IN THE CAR AND
r 10
11
SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT?
RIGHT NOW."
LET'S GO KICK SOMEBODY'S ASS
YOU KNOW, IT HAPPENED.
r 12
13
Q. BUT THIS WOULD BE THE TIME WHEN YOU SAID YOU
HAD GROWN OUT OF THIS KIND OF ACTIVITY, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
MR. TROCHA.
I SAID I HAD GROWN OUT OF THE ACTIVITY,
GETTING IN THE FIGHT, IT WASN'T
r 16
17
GANG-RELATED. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GANGS.
A FIGHT OVER SOMETHING STUPID.
IT WAS
r 18 BUT IT WAS A FIGHT, AND, LIKE I SAID, I PLED
r 19
20
GUILTY TO THE CHARGE BECAUSE I WAS GUILTY OF GETTING IN
A FIGHT. THAT'S ALL IT WAS. IT WASN'T LIKE WE DROVE TO
r 21
22
A RIVAL NEIGHBORHOOD AND JUMPED OUT OF THE CAR AND
STARTED BEATING UP SOME PEOPLE. IT WAS A FIGHT.
r 23
24
MY FRIEND PICKED A FIGHT WITH THREE PEOPLE.
WAS GETTING THE SHORT END OF IT. I HELPED HIM.
HE
li%1
I 25 Q. YOUR FRIEND ARTURO GUERERRO IS A SHELLTOWN 38TH
r 26
27
STREET GANG MEMBER.
A. LIKE I SAID, A LOT OF MY FRIENDS WERE. THEY
r 28 STILL ARE.
r-
1
2490
, ~
1 Q. YOUR FRIEND ARTURO GUERERRO WAS ARMED WITH A
2 BILLIARD BALL IN THIS FIGHT, CORRECT? 1 J
3 A. HE HAD A BILLIARD BALL, YES.
4 Q. WHAT WERE YOU WEARING DURING THIS FIGHT,

l 0
6
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. I WAS WEARING A TANK TOP AND SOME SWEATS.
l
7 Q. WHAT WAS ON YOUR HANDS?
l
8 A. I HAD SOME FRANKLIN BATTING GLOVES.
1
9
10
Q.
A.
FRANKLIN LEATHER BATTING GLOVES, CORRECT?
FRANKLIN WHITE AND BLACK BATTING GLOVES. ,

11
12
13
Q.
A.
Q.
MADE OF LEATHER, CORRECT?
MAYBE.
ANY REASON YOU WOULD BE WALKING AROUND WITH

, j
14
15
BATTING GLOVES ON IN THE 7-ELEVEN?
A. YOU KNOW WHAT? IT WAS ALMOST 2:00 IN THE

l
16
17
18
MORNING. I WAS FREEZING.
I WENT IN MY TRUNK.
ALL I HAD.
ALL I HAD WAS A TANK TOP ON.
I HAVE A BAT BAG IN THERE.
I WAS HOPING I HAD A SHIRT.

THAT'S
,
l
J
19 Q. SO THESE GLOVES WERE THERE TO KEEP YOU WARM?
20 A. TRYING TO KEEP MYSELF WARM.

l
21 Q. WHAT ABOUT 1996? WHAT HAPPENED IN 1996,
22
23
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. IN 1996? WHAT HAPPENED 15 YEARS AGO? LET ME

, j
24 SEE
25 Q. YEAH. YOUR OTHER CRIMINAL CONVICTION.
26 A. CRIMINAL CONVICTION? WHICH ONE WAS THAT,
27 MR. TROCHA? l
28 Q. STOLEN CAR IN 1996.
l
~
j
J
r 2491
r 1 A. OKAY. WHAT'S GOING ON WAS I WAS IN A STOLEN

r 2 CAR IN 1996.
r 3
4
Q. WEREN'T YOU WEARING A PAIR OF BLACK LEATHER
GLOVES AT THAT TIME TOO?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
MAYBE.
YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
[ 7 A. YOU WANT ME TO REMEMBER WHAT I DID 15 YEARS
8 AGO, MR. TROCHA? I HAVE NO IDEA. 15 YEARS AGO I WAS
r 9 18. I'M 33 YEARS OLD, MR. TROCHA. YOU ACT LIKE THIS
r 10
11
WAS YESTERDAY.
Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN CAUGHT IN A STOLEN
r 12
13
CAR WEARING BLACK LEATHER GLOVES?
A. ONE TIME.
r 14
15
Q. SO YOU'D THINK YOU WOULD REMEMBER THAT,
WOULDN'T YOU, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
WHY WOULD I REMEMBER THAT?
BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY TIME SOMETHING LIKE THAT

r 18 HAPPENED.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I DON'T REMEMBER, MR. TROCHA.
SO THE TWO TIMES YOU'VE BEEN ARRESTED AND PLED
r 21
22
GUILTY, YOU'VE BEEN WEARING LEATHER GLOVES, CORRECT?
A. SO YOU SAY.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
SO THE EVIDENCE SAYS.
SO YOU SAY.
r 25 Q. LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR GANG MEMBERSHIP.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
LET'S GET BACK TO IT.
YOU BOUGHT YOUR FIRST HOUSE IN 1998 WHILE YOU
r 28 WERE STILL AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
[
2492
,
l
1 A. I HAVEN'T DENIED THAT, MR. TROCHA.
2 Q. YOUR CHILDREN WERE BORN IN 1998, 1999, AROUND l

2000 AND AROUND 2003, CORRECT?
3
1
4
5
6
A.
Q.
A.
HOW MANY TATTOOS HAVE YOU GOTTEN SINCE 1998?
1998? A FEW.
,
7 Q. HOW MANY WITH YOUR KIDS' NAMES ON THEM?
8 A. NONE.
9 Q. NONE? 1
10 A. HUH-UH.
11 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHAT DEFINES AN ACTIVE GANG 1

12 MEMBER TO YOU?
13 A. AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER IS SOMEBODY COMMITTING

l
14 CRIMES TO FURTHER THEIR STATUS IN THE GANG, MR. TROCHA.
15 THAT'S AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER, NOT SOMEBODY THAT COMES BY
,
~
16 EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE TO HAVE SOME BEERS WITH SOME OF 1
17 HIS FRIENDS. AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER IS DOING CRIMES TO
18 BENEFIT HIS STATUS IN THE GANG; GOING TO PRISON, COMING 1
19 IN AND OUT OF PRISON.

l
20
21
22
I'VE NEVER BEEN TO PRISON, MR. TROCHA.
NEVER EVEN DONE JAIL TIME, MR. TROCHA.
Q.
I'VE
DO YOU REMEMBER TESTIFYING ABOUT WHAT AN ACTIVE

,
23
24
GANG MEMBER DOES BEFORE?
1
A. I'M TELLING YOU WHAT AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER DOES
l
25
26
27
NOW.
Q.
A.
DOES AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER PUT IN WORK?
YEAH, TO FURTHER HIS STATUS IN THE GANG,

, J
28 MR. TROCHA.
l
r 2493
r 1 Q. DOESN'T AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER HANG OUT WITH
r 2 OTHER ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS?
3 A. SO DO INACTIVE GANG MEMBERS.

r 4 Q. WELL, YOU SAID BEFORE AN ACTIVE GANG MEMBER
r 5
6
HANGS OUT WITH OTHER GANG MEMBERS.
A. SO DO NON-ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS, MR. TROCHA.
l 7
8
INCONSISTENT WITH HIS CURRENT TESTIMONY.

THAT'S NOT
r 9
10
THE COURT:
BY MR. TROCHA:
OVERRULED.
r 11 Q. ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS, YOU SAID, LIVE DOWN IN
r 12
13
SHELLTOWN, CORRECT?
A. SO DO NON-ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS. THERE IS A LOT
r 14
15
OF PEOPLE THAT HANG OUT IN SHELLTOWN THAT AREN'T FROM
SHELLTOWN, MR. TROCHA.
r 16 Q. ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS DRINK WITH OTHER ACTIVE

17
r
GANG MEMBERS.
18 A. SO DO NON-ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS, MR. TROCHA.
r 19
20
Q. ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS SMOKE WEED WITH OTHER
ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS.
r 21
22
A.
Q.
SO DO NON-ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS, MR. TROCHA.
AND THEY DO THIS ALL DOWN IN SHELLTOWN.
r 23
24
A.
CARE.
THEY CAN DO IT ANYWHERE THEY WANT. I DON'T
r 25 Q. ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS TAG PROPERTY.
r 26
27
A.
Q.
YEAH.
YES?
r 28 A. YEAH.
r
I -
,
1 Q. ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS GET TATTOOS OF GANG
2494
,
2 MEMORABILIA. l
3 A. SO DO NON-ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS, MR. TROCHA.
1
4
6
Q.
A.
ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS GET INTO FIGHTS.
ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS ARE TRYING TO FURTHER THEIR
STATUS IN THE GANG, MR. TROCHA.

, j
7
8
Q.
A.
ACTIVE GANG MEMBERS GO BY A MONIKER.
A LOT OF PEOPLE GO BY MONIKERS.

1
9 Q. HOW MANY GO BY SPEEDY? 1
10 A. I COULDN'T TELL YOU. GANG MEMBERS? I'M SURE
11 THERE'S THOUSANDS OF SPEEDIES. 1

12 Q. HOW MANY SPEEDIES DO YOU KNOW?
13 A. DO I KNOW? I KNOW PLENTY OF THEM.
l J
14 Q. WHO?
15 A. THERE IS SPEEDIES FROM EVERY GANG IN SAN DIEGO,
16 MR. TROCHA. THERE'S BIG SPEEDIES, LIL SPEEDIES, TINY
17 SPEEDIES, OG SPEEDIES. THERE IS SPEEDIES EVERYWHERE.
18 Q. HOW MANY IS THERE IN SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET? 1

19 A. IN SHELLTOWN? I COULDN'T TELL YOU.
l
20
21
22
Q. BUT YOU KNOW THESE PEOPLE QUITE WELL,
MR. DOMINGUEZ.
A. I DON'T KNOW THE PEOPLE QUITE WELL. I KNOW THE

, J
23 PEOPLE MY AGE AND AROUND MY AGE, MR. TROCHA. I DON'T

l
24 KNOW WHAT THESE LITTLE KIDS CALL THEMSELVES NOWADAYS. I
25 DON'T KNOW NONE OF THAT. l
26 Q. YET WE'VE HEARD YOU'RE DOWN IN SHELLTOWN ALL
27 THE TIME TO THE POINT THAT PEOPLE SEE YOU ON THE STREETS l
28 AND WELCOME YOU INTO THEIR HOMES.
l
~
l
r 2495
r 1 A. WHEN DID I SAY THAT, MR. TROCHA? I SAID I KNOW

[ 2 PEOPLE. I GREW UP THERE MY WHOLE LIFE, MR. TROCHA. I
r 3
4
GREW UP WITH SOME OF THESE GUYS SINCE I WAS FIVE YEARS
OLD. I CAN WALK INTO THE HOUSE WITHOUT KNOCKING ON THE
r 5
6
DOOR.
I DIDN'T SAY I AM DOWN THERE SO MUCH RIGHT NOW
[ 7 THAT I CAN WALK IN ANYBODY'S HOUSE. I SAID I'VE KNOWN

8 THESE PEOPLE MY WHOLE LIFE, MR. TROCHA. SOME OF MY
r 9 FRIENDS' MOMS, THEY TALK TO ME LIKE I'M ONE OF THEIR
r 10
11
KIDS. A LOT OF MY FRIENDS KNOW MY MOM.
HER LIKE SHE'S THEIR MOM.
THEY TALK TO
r 12
13
YOU KNOW, MY MOM'S SEEN ALL MY FRIENDS COMING
IN AND OUT OF COURT RIGHT HERE, MR. TROCHA. YOU ACT
r 14
15
LIKE I JUST WALK INTO RANDOM PEOPLE'S HOUSES BECAUSE I'M
DOWN THERE ALL THE TIME.
r 16 I WALK INTO PEOPLE'S HOUSES THAT I'VE KNOWN MY
r 17
18
WHOLE LIFE, MR. TROCHA.
TOWN.
I'VE GREW UP IN THAT PART OF
MY ROOTS ARE IN THAT PART OF TOWN.

EVERYBODY IN THAT PART OF TOWN.
I'VE KNOWN
I COULD WALK INTO
19
[ 20 RANDOM HOUSES RIGHT THERE FROM PEOPLE THAT I'D KNOWN.
r 21
22
PEOPLE'S GRANDPARENTS WILL WELCOME ME IN THEIR HOUSE,
MR. TROCHA.
r 23
24 JUST MET ME.

NOT JUST PEOPLE I DON'T KNOW OR PEOPLE THAT
I CAN'T WALK INTO A STRANGER'S HOUSE AND,
r 25 LIKE, "MAKE ME SOMETHING TO EAT."
r
l.
26
27 KNOW?
Q. YOU DON'T GO INTO HOUSES OF PEOPLE YOU DON'T
r 28 A. NOT WITHOUT BEING INVITED.
r
2496
l
l
1 Q. WERE YOU INVITED TO HEX'S HOUSE?
2 A. MARLA INVITED ME OVER THERE. l

3 Q. TO A HOUSE THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PEOPLE
4 THERE?
l
5
6
A.
Q.
I KNEW MARLA. THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
SHE DOESN'T LIVE THERE.

l
7 A. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HER ASKING ME TO
8 GO OVER THERE TO TALK TO HER, MR. TROCHA?
1
9
10
11
Q. SO YOU JUST HAPPENED TO GO DOWN AND SEE MARLA
AND SOMEONE GETS MURDERED, YEAH.
A. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ME, MR. TROCHA?

, 1
12 Q. WELL, YOU DON'T LIVE IN SHELLTOWN, DO YOU,
13 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
14 A. I NEVER SAID I DID, MR. TROCHA.

1
15
16
Q. SO IN 2008 YOU JUST HAPPENED TO GO MEET MARLA
AT A PLACE WHERE SOMEONE GETS MURDERED; IS THAT WHAT

, !
I
17 YOU'RE TESTIFYING TO?
18
19
20
A. I'M SAYING MARLA CALLED ME DOWN THERE TO GO
TALK TO HER. I WENT DOWN THERE AND TALKED TO HER.
BROTHER TOOK OFF FOR A WALK AND SOMETHING HAPPENED.

HER
ARE
, )
21
22
YOU TRYING TO INSINUATE SOMETHING ELSE?
Q. SO AT THIS TIME MARLA IS GONE, EDWIN IS GONE

l
23 AND YOU'RE HANGING OUT WITH A GUY NAMED HEX. l
24 A. THEY WERE GONE WALKING. WHAT PART DID YOU NOT
25 UNDERSTAND? DIDN'T I MAKE THAT CLEAR? HEX LEFT WITH l

26 THESE KIDS. THEY ALL LEFT TOGETHER. I WAS WAITING FOR
27 MARLA TO COME BACK. l
28 Q. SO YOU WERE LEFT AT HEX'S HOUSE WITH NOBODY
l
, r
r 2497
r 1 THERE?
r 2 A. WE WERE IN THE YARD. IT'S NOT LIKE WE WERE
r 3
4
INSIDE THIS HOUSE.
Q. AT A HOUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON BEFORE
r 5
6
YOU ARRIVED THAT DAY.
A. I DIDN'T KNOW THE
[ 7 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASKED AND

8 ANSWERED.
rn
t 9 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
r 10
11
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. AND THEN A COUPLE MONTHS LATER, YOU'RE BACK IN
r 12
13
SHELLTOWN AND SOMEONE ELSE GETS MURDERED, YES,
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 14
15
A.
TIME.
I WAS IN SHELLTOWN PLENTY OF TIMES BETWEEN THAT
r 16
17
Q. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MURDERED WHILE YOU'RE
IN SHELLTOWN?
r 18 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. RELEVANCE.
19 THE COURT: ARGUMENTATIVE. SUSTAINED.
l 20 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 21
22
Q. THESE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE GROWN UP WITH, SURELY
YOU RECOGNIZED CHUCK WHEN YOU WERE AT THE PARK THAT
r 23
24
NIGHT.
A. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW CHUCK WAS AT THAT PARK.
r 25 Q. WHAT ABOUT SPORTY? WAS HE AT THE PARK?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS AT THE PARK.
WELL, STONEY WAS AT THE PARK, AND YOU KNOW HIM.
r 28 THAT'S SPORTY'S LITTLE BROTHER, RIGHT?
r
2498
1
l
1 A. I COULDN'T SEE. I COULDN'T MAKE OUT ANY FACE.
2 I COULDN'T TELL YOU WHO WAS IN THE CROWD OF THAT PEOPLE, l
3 MR. TROCHA. AND, LIKE I SAID, I DIDN'T EVEN CARE. I
4 WAS PREOCCUPIED. I HAD FRIENDS RIGHT THERE. I WASN'T
1 1
5
6
EVEN WORRIED ABOUT WHO WAS IN THE PARK.
Q. YOU WERE PREOCCUPIED DRINKING BEER AND SMOKING
l
7 WEED WITH SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS.
1
8 A. WITH CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ.
~
9 Q. WHO IS A SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBER. 1
10 A. NO, HE'S NOT.
11 Q. HE'S NOT? 1
12 A. HE'S NEVER BEEN -- HE LIVES RIGHT THERE,
13 MR. TROCHA. HE KNOWS EVERYBODY RIGHT THERE. JUST
l
14 BECAUSE HE HANGS AROUND WITH THAT CROWD OF PEOPLE
15 DOESN'T MAKE HIM AN ACTUAL SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBER.
16 Q. HE DOESN'T GO BY VANDAL? l
17 A. LIKE I SAID, A LOT OF PEOPLE GET DOCUMENTED IN
18 THAT AREA JUST FOR BEING AROUND PEOPLE THAT THEY -- THAT l
19 THEY HANG AROUND WITH EVERY DAY. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT
20 THEY'RE ACTUAL GANG MEMBERS.
1 I
21
22
Q. THAT'S INTERESTING, MR. DOMINGUEZ, BECAUSE YOU
DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO WHO IS DOCUMENTED AND WHO IS NOT,
l
23 CORRECT?
l
24 A. YOU KNOW WHEN YOU'RE DOCUMENTED OR NOT BECAUSE
25 THE COPS TELL YOU. 1
26 Q. YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION, DO
27 YOU? l
28 A. HOW WOULD I HAVE ACCESS TO THAT, MR. TROCHA?
l
r 2499
~
r
1 Q. WELL, YOU SPOUT OFF IN HERE ABOUT PEOPLE BEING
2 DOCUMENTED WHO ACTUALLY AREN'T GANG MEMBERS.
3 A. YES, BECAUSE THE POLICE TELL YOU WHEN YOU'RE

r 4 DOCUMENTED. I GOT FRIENDS THAT AREN'T GANG MEMBERS THAT
r 5
6
HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED, MR. TROCHA.
Q. FRANKIE SANDOVAL IS NOT A GANG MEMBER AND HE'S
r 7
8
NOT DOCUMENTED.
A. NO, BUT HE ALSO HAS TATTOOS OF SHELLS ON HIM,
r 9 MR. TROCHA. GOD FORBID HE GETS PULLED OVER TOMORROW
r 10
11
WITH ME AND, YOU KNOW, HE GOT A TATTOO OF A SHELL AND
HE'S WITH ME. ALL OF A SUDDEN HE'S GOING TO BE
~- 12 DOCUMENTED, EVEN THOUGH HE'S NEVER BEEN A DOCUMENTED

I
13 GANG MEMBER.
r 14
15
Q.
BACK?
DOES FRANKIE SANDOVAL HAVE A GIANT 38 ON HIS
r 16
17
A.
Q.
NO. I DO.
YOU GOT THAT 10 YEARS AGO, RIGHT?

r 18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. HOW OLD WAS YOUR FIRST KID WHEN YOU GOT THAT
c 20 TATTOO?
i 21
22
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
RELEVANCE.
r 23
24
THE WITNESS: MY FIRST KID WHEN I GOT MY LAST
TATTOO -- I GOT IT OVER 10 YEARS, SO I DON'T KNOW. HE
r 25
26
MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE.
I CAN'T TELL YOU.

HE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN BORN YET.
r 27 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 28 Q. SO YOU GOT THIS TATTOO WHEN YOU WERE WORKING AT
r
2500
1
1
1 CUT 'N CORE AS WELL?
2 A. NO, I WASN'T WORKING AT CUT 'N CORE 10 YEARS l
3 AGO.
l
4
5
6
Q.
IN EL CAJON?
A.
YOU GOT THIS TATTOO WHILE YOU BOUGHT YOUR HOUSE
I COULDN'T TELL YOU. BUT, LIKE I SAID, EVEN IF

, j
9
I DID, I'M NOT SAYING I WAS INACTIVE AT THAT TIME,
MR. TROCHA. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE, THE EXACT
TIME OR MONTH OR HOUR THAT I GOT THE TATTOO. I KNOW
,
1
1
10 IT'S BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

11 Q. WELL, YOU SAID THE 38 MIXED WITH SHELLS, THAT 1
12 IS INDICATIVE OF SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET, YES?
13 A. YEAH.
14
15 BODY?
Q. HOW MANY SHELLS DO YOU HAVE TATTOOED ON YOUR
1
l
16
17
18
A. I'VE GOT TWO RIGHT HERE AND THEN I GOT TWO
SMALL ONES ON MY BACK.
Q. WHAT ABOUT THE BIG CONCH BY YOUR NECK?
,
19 A. WHAT CONCH?
20 Q. THE ONE RIGHT HERE.
l
21
22
A. I DON'T HAVE ONE. CAN YOU SHOW IT TO ME?
BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
l
23 Q. DO YOU SEE WHERE THE RULER IS, MR. DOMINGUEZ, l
24 ON PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 13?
25 A. YES. l
26 Q. SEE THE LARGE CONCH-TYPE SHELL UNDERNEATH IT?
27 A. WHAT IS A CONCH? l
,
28 Q. IT'S A SHELL THAT YOU SEE THE HAWAIIAN PEOPLE
l
J
r 2501
r
r 1
2
BLOW INTO AND IT MAKES SOME NOISE.
A. THIS RIGHT HERE?
r 3
4
Q.
A.
YES.
THIS IS THE HEAD OF THE FEATHERED SERPENT GOD,
r 5
6
THE AZTEC SERPENT GOD.
RIGHT HERE.
IF YOU SEE, THIS IS THE EYE
HERE IS THE SNOUT. HERE ARE THE TEETH
r
L -
7
8
RIGHT HERE. IT'S SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE A STONE. AND IT
HAS FEATHERS COMING OUT THE BACK THAT YOU CAN'T SEE
r 9 BECAUSE OF THE GLOVES AND THE RULER, BUT THAT'S ACTUALLY
r 10
11
THE HEAD OF A FEATHERED SERPENT.
Q. WHAT ABOUT THE SHELL RIGHT BELOW IT ON THE
r 12
13
SOMBRERO?
A. THIS LITTLE SHELL RIGHT HERE? NO, THAT'S THE
r 14
15
ONE I SAID I HAD.
Q.
THIS ONE AND THIS ONE RIGHT HERE.
ON YOUR RIGHT SHOULDER?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WHAT ABOUT THE EARRINGS OF THE AZTEC GUY? ARE

r 18 THOSE SHELLS?
r 19
20
A.
HIGH PRIEST.
NO. THOSE ARE JUST AZTEC EARRINGS.
THAT'S A AZTEC PRIEST.

THAT'S A
THEY'RE JUST
r 21
22
REGULAR EARRINGS THAT THEY WORE AT THE TIME.
Q. AND THEN WE HAVE THE S-T THAT BORDERS THE
r 23
24
SOMBRERO ALL THE WAY AROUND, CORRECT?
A. THIS RIGHT HERE?

[ 25 Q. YOU GOT ALL THAT WHEN YOU WERE NOT ACTIVE,
r 26
27
RIGHT?
A. THIS FEMALE RIGHT HERE I GOT WHEN I WAS 15,
r 28 MR. TROCHA.
r
2502
,
l
1 Q. THE REST OF IT WASN'T ON THERE WHEN YOU WERE
2 15. l
3 A. THIS IS THE WHOLE -- THIS TATTOO I HAVE, NO.
4 ALL THIS CAME AFTERWARDS.

,
l
,
5 Q. WHEN YOU WERE --
!
6 A. I'M NOT DENYING THE FACT OF ANY OF THAT,
8
MR. TROCHA. THIS IS THE FIRST TATTOO I EVER HAD.
THIS -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONCH IS, OR WHATEVER

, }j
10
YOU'RE SAYING. BUT THAT'S A SHELL AND THAT'S A SHELL.
THOSE ARE S, AND I GOT A 38 ON MY BACK.

,
11
12
Q. AND YOU ALSO HAVE THE SHELL TATTOOS ON YOUR
HOOD RAISED TATTOO. ,

13
14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
BUT NONE OF THOSE TATTOOS MEAN THEY'RE
SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBER STUFF, CORRECT?

,
16 A. THE SHELLS ON MY ARM -- LIKE I SAID, THE l
17 SHELLS, THEY DO MEAN SHELLTOWN, MR. TROCHA. BUT JUST
18 BECAUSE I GOT SHELLS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M ACTUALLY 1

19 SHELLTOWN THE GANG, MR. TROCHA.
20 IT'S A NEIGHBORHOOD. A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT --

l
21
22
JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY HAS SHELLTOWN TATTOOED ON THEM
IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE FROM SHELLTOWN THE GANG JUST

l
23 BECAUSE SOMEBODY GOT SHELLS TATTOOED ALL OVER THEM.
1
24 I MEAN, THERE'S GIRLS, THERE'S GUYS, THERE'S
25 TEENAGERS, THERE'S KIDS THAT HAVE SHELLTOWN -- THAT HAVE l

26 SHELLS TATTOOED ALL OVER. IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING
27 UNTIL YOU PUT THAT "38TH STREET" ON THERE THAT I HAVE l

28 RIGHT THERE, MR. TROCHA. THAT'S A GANG TATTOO, NO DOUBT
1
l
r 2503
r 1 ABOUT IT.
r 2 Q. YOU GOT THESE TATTOOS ALL AFTER YOU STOPPED
r 3
4
BEING ACTIVE, OR SO YOU SAY, CORRECT?
A. NO. I GOT THE 38 WHEN I WAS ACTIVE.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHAT ABOUT THE "HOOD RAISED"?
THE "HOOD RAISED," I GOT THAT AFTER. THAT'S MY
r 7
8
RECORD LABEL, MR. TROCHA. I GOT SHELLS AROUND THAT.
LIKE I SAID, OUR MUSIC IS BASED OUT OF THAT
r 9 NEIGHBORHOOD, MR. TROCHA. EVERYTHING THAT WE DO
r 10
11
ACCORDING TO MUSIC IS BASED OUT OF DAILY STRUGGLES IN
THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.
r 12
13
Q. SO ALL THE SHELLS YOU'VE GOTTEN, INCLUDING THE
"HOOD RAISED," YOU GOT AFTER YOU LEFT THE GANG.
r 14
15
A. ALL THE SHELLS -- NO. THE LITTLE ONE ON MY
RIGHT SHOULDER THERE, THE ONE ON THE HAT, ON THE
r
L
16 SOMBRERO, I GOT THAT WHEN I WAS LIKE 15 OR 16,
17 MR. TROCHA. THE ONE ON MY RIGHT SHOULDER, THE ONE THAT

r 18 YOU CAN BARELY SEE, THAT LITTLE TINY ONE, YEAH, I GOT
r 19
20
THAT AFTERWARDS, AND THE "HOOD RAISED" ON MY ARM, YES.
Q. AGAIN, THESE TATTOOS THAT YOU RECEIVED, THE
r 21
22
ONES WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT NOW, THIS IS AFTER ALL
THREE OF YOUR KIDS HAD BEEN BORN, CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
WHERE ARE YOUR KIDS' NAMES ON YOUR BODY?
r 25 A. MY KIDS' NAMES? NOWHERE. I'M GOING TO GET
r 26
27
THEIR FACES TATTOOED ON ME, BUT IT'S JUST HARD TO FIND
THE RIGHT ARTIST TO DO THAT. AND THE PEOPLE THAT DO
r 28 THAT CHARGE A LOT OF MONEY FOR THAT.
r
2504
l
l
1 Q. WELL, YOU GOT AN AZTEC GOD'S FACE PUT ON YOUR
2 BACK IN THE MEANTIME, CORRECT? l
3 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED. LET'S MOVE l
5
6
ON.
BY MR. TROCHA:
l
7 Q. HOW ABOUT THE OVP TATTOO? TELL ME WHAT THAT
l
8 MEANS.
9 A. THAT MEANS OCEAN VIEW PARK. 1
10 Q. WHY DO YOU HAVE THE NAME OF A PARK TATTOOED ON
11 YOU?
1 ~
12 A. GENERALLY THAT'S THAT WHOLE AREA, MR. TROCHA.

13 I GREW UP IN THAT PARK, YOU KNOW, MY WHOLE LIFE.
l
14
15
Q.
A.
YOU GOT THIS TATTOO HOW LONG AGO?
LIKE SIX YEARS AGO. FIVE, SIX, SEVEN YEARS
1
16
17
AGO, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q. AND YOU SAID YOU SPENT FROM AGES 4 TO 17
l
18 GROWING UP IN THAT PARK, RIGHT? l
19 A. THERE'S THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL RIGHT AT THE END
20 OF THE BIG PARK. I WENT THERE FROM PRESCHOOL ON UP. I l
21
22
SPENT MY WHOLE LIFE IN THAT PARK, MR. TROCHA.
Q. HOW OLD IS YOUR OLDEST SON?
l
23
24
A.
Q.
HE'S GOING TO BE 13 IN JUNE.
SO HE'S BEEN ALIVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME YOU
l
25 SPENT GROWING UP IN THAT PARK, YES? l
26 A. THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME? NO.
27 Q. 13 YEARS, YES? l
28 A. ABOUT THE TIME, YEAH.
l
l
r 2505
r 1 Q. YET OCEAN VIEW PARK IS TATTOOED ON YOUR BODY
r 2 AND NOT YOUR SON'S NAME JOSE?
r 3
4
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
SUSTAINED.
RELEVANCE.
r 5
6
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. YOU SAID YOU WERE ONLY TAGGING WHEN YOU WERE A
r 7
8
KID.
A.
OUT ON THE STREETS, YEAH.
r 9 Q. ARE YOU TELLING US THE TAGS THAT WE SAW AROUND
r 10
11
OCEAN VIEW PARK THAT SAID "SPEEDY" HAVE BEEN THERE SINCE
YOU WERE A KID?
r 12
13
A.
THEY GOT THERE.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT. I CAN'T TELL YOU WHEN
r 14
15
Q.
A.
HOW ABOUT THE ONE IN YOUR HOUSE?
THE ONE IN MY STUDIO?
r 16 Q. YES.
r 17
18
A. SEE, NOW, THAT'S DIFFERENT, MR. TROCHA.
IN MY STUDIO ON PROPERTY I OWNED.

THAT'S
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
r 19
20
AT THE PARK ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROPERTY.
PROPERTY.
THAT IS IN MY
I CAN'T EVEN TELL YOU IF I DID THAT. IF YOU
r 21
22
LOOK CLOSELY, THERE IS WRITING ALL OVER IT.
I DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WRITING ON
[ 23 THAT. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT WE HAD A BOARD WHERE WE
24 PUT WHAT WE HAD TO DO THAT DAY, AND THERE'S MARKERS
r 25 THERE. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. WHAT I DID
r 26
27
HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WAS WITH WHOEVER DID THAT BIG S-T
MURAL ON THERE.
r 28 BUT, I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TAGGING ON A
r
2506
l
l
1 STREET AS TO WRITING ON SOMETHING THAT IS INSIDE OF ONE
2 OF MY PROPERTIES. THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE, MR. TROCHA. l

3 Q. PEOPLE'S 229 IS TAKEN INSIDE YOUR PROPERTY.
4 A. INSIDE A HOUSE THAT I OWNED AT THE TIME. IT'S

l
5
6
NOT OUT IN THE PARK OR ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROPERTY.
THAT'S MY HOUSE. IF I WANT TO WRITE, I CAN WRITE

l
7 WHATEVER I WANT RIGHT THERE. CAN'T NOBODY TELL ME
l
8 NOTHING. THAT'S MY PROPERTY.
9 Q. ARE YOU SAYING YOU WROTE THAT? l

10 A. I'M NOT SAYING I WROTE THAT, NO. ~
11 Q. WHO WROTE THAT? J
12
13
A.
Q.
I CAN'T TELL YOU.
IT WAS YOUR PROPERTY, CORRECT?

l
14
15
A. YEAH. I WASN'T THERE ALL DAY LONG, 24 HOURS A
DAY WATCHING WHAT EVERYBODY DID, MR. TROCHA.

l
16 Q. WHO WROTE "SPEEDY" ON THIS? l
17 A. I MIGHT HAVE DID IT; I MIGHT NOT HAVE.
18 Q. I THOUGHT YOU STOPPED GOING BY SPEEDY ONCE YOU l

19 LEFT THE GANG, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
20 A. MR. TROCHA, THAT'S BEEN A NAME I WAS CALLED.

l
21
22
NOBODY CALLS ME SPEEDY NO MORE.
CHUNKY.
EVERYBODY CALLS ME
MY MOM CALLS ME CHUNKY, MY BOSS, EVERYBODY.

l
23
24
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WAS WRITTEN
l
ON INSIDE OF A HOUSE THAT I OWN AS TO SOMETHING THAT WAS
25 WRITTEN ON INSIDE A PARK? THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. I l
26 DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING WITH IT. WHAT DO YOU WANT
27 TO TELL ME? l
28 Q. YOU JUST TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAVEN'T GONE BY
l
l
r 2507
r 1 SPEEDY IN A VERY LONG TIME --

[ 2 A. MR. TROCHA, I DON'T
3 Q. -- DID YOU NOT?
[ 4 A. I DON'T GO WALK UP TO PEOPLE AND SAY, "HOW YOU
r 5
6
DOING? I'M SPEEDY."
WITH PEOPLE.
NO, MR. TROCHA, NO. I GREW UP
THEY KNOW ME BY THAT, BUT I DON'T GO BY
r 7
8
THAT.
Q. YET SPEEDY IS TAGGED INSIDE THIS PROPERTY OF
r 9
10
YOURS, YES?
A. INSIDE OF MY PROPERTY, YES.

[ 11 Q. IT WAS UP THERE IN 2009 WHEN RANDY BARNES SAW
r 12
13
IT, CORRECT?
A. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS 2009. I HAD THAT
[ 14 STUDIO FOR SEVERAL YEARS. IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYWHERE
15 IN BETWEEN ANY OF THAT TIME. I DON'T KNOW.
r 16
17
Q. IT WAS UP THERE IN 2008 WHEN MS. BANUELOS CAME
OVER TO YOUR HOUSE, CORRECT?

[ 18 A. POSSIBLY.
19 Q. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE, THEN, BETWEEN TAGGING

[ 20 IN YOUR HOME VERSUS TAGGING ON A PARK BENCH?
r 21
22
A.
Q.
WELL -- ON THE PARK BENCH?
YEAH.
c 23
24
A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I OWN THAT PROPERTY.
CAN'T GET IN TROUBLE FOR THAT. AND THAT'S WAY DIFFERENT

I
r 25 THAN BEING OUT ON THE STREETS, TAGGING ON BENCHES, WHICH
r 26
27
IS KIND OF ABSURD, MR. TROCHA.
Q. WELL, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT ON A BENCH IN A
r 28 PARK, ANYONE WHO HAS ACCESS TO THAT PARK CAN WRITE DOWN
r
2508
l
1
1 ANYTHING THEY WANT ON THAT BENCH?
2 A. CAN YOU REPHRASE THAT AGAIN? THAT DIDN'T MAKE 1

3 NO SENSE.
4 Q. THE PARK BENCH THAT WE SEE, ANYBODY IN THAT

l
5
6
NEIGHBORHOOD OR ANYWHERE IN SAN DIEGO COULD COME DOWN
AND WRITE ON THAT BENCH IF THEY WANTED TO, CORRECT?

l
7 A. I CAN'T SPEAK FOR WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE WOULD DO,
l
8 MR. TROCHA. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE GOING WITH
9 THIS. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET AT? I MEAN, I DON'T l

10 UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION.
11 Q. DOES EVERYBODY IN SAN DIEGO HAVE ACCESS TO YOUR l

12
13
RECORDING STUDIO TO PUT UP SHELLTOWN TAGS WITH YOUR
MONIKER ON THEM?
l
14
15
A.
Q.
DOES EVERYBODY IN SAN DIEGO?
DO THEY?
l
18 THE WITNESS: DOES EVERYBODY IN SAN DIEGO HAVE l

19 ACCESS? NO. THAT'S RIDICULOUS.
20 BY MR. TROCHA:
l
21
22
Q. SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMEONE YOU KNOW WHO DID
THIS OR YOU DID THIS YOURSELF IN YOUR HOME, CORRECT?

l
23
24
A. I'M SURE IT WAS SOMEBODY I KNOW. IT'S NOT LIKE
l
I HAVE STRANGERS COMING IN AND OUT OF THERE.
25 Q. THIS IS ALL, AGAIN, WHILE YOU'RE NO LONGER AN l
26 ACTIVE GANG MEMBER, CORRECT?
27 A. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ME BEING ACTIVE l
28 OR NOT ACTIVE IN A GANG, MR. TROCHA?
l
1
r 2509
r 1 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I NEED TO SEE

[ 2 COUNSEL AT SIDEBAR, PLEASE. SIDEBAR RULE IS IN EFFECT.
r 3
4
WE'RE OFF THE RECORD.
r 5
6
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING
TO TAKE THE EVENING RECESS RIGHT NOW. MY CONTEMPLATION
r 7
8
IS THAT THE CASE WILL BE DELIVERED INTO YOUR HANDS FOR
DELIBERATION EITHER WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON OR THURSDAY
r 9
10
MORNING. THERE IS ANOTHER WITNESS TO GO THROUGH.
IS ALSO SOME FURTHER EXAMINATION, OF COURSE, OF
THERE
[ 11 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 12
13
WE'RE DARK TOMORROW. WON'T BE HERE TOMORROW.
MAY I ASK THAT YOU ALL RETURN AT 9:00 A.M. ON WEDNESDAY
[ 14 OUTSIDE THIS COURTROOM.

15 I THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED, VERY SERIOUS
r 16
17
ATTENTION TO THIS CASE, WHICH EVERYBODY IS GIVING IT.
PLEASE LEAVE THE NOTEBOOKS AND PENS ON THE CHAIRS AND
[ 18 PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION. SEE YOU WEDNESDAY
19 MORNING.
[ 20 MR. DOMINGUEZ, THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
r 21
22
r 23
24
THE COURT: AT SIDEBAR I ASKED BOTH COUNSEL TO
GET ME ANY FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS, E-MAIL THEM TO THE
r 25 CLERK OR TO ME, IF YOU'D LIKE. ACTUALLY, IF I COULD
r 26
27
HAVE THEM BY CLOSE OF BUSINESS TOMORROW, THAT WOULD BE
NICE, SO I CAN BE LOOKING AT THEM ON WEDNESDAY MORNING.
r
l
28 WE'RE DARK TOMORROW, BUT THEN WEDNESDAY MORNING
r
2510
,
l
1 OUR CONTEMPLATION IS TO FINISH THE EVIDENCE. THAT MAY
2 OR MAY NOT TAKE ALL MORNING. l
3 IF IT DOESN'T TAKE ALL MORNING, THEN I'LL MEET
4 WITH COUNSEL OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY. WE'LL GO
l
5
6
OVER THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS AND RESOLVE ARGUMENTS THAT
ANYBODY MAY HAVE WITH RESPECT TO THOSE.
l
7 IF, FOR EXAMPLE, WE GET THAT DONE BY NOON, THEN
l
8 MY THOUGHT IS TO INSTRUCT FIRST AT 1:30, AND THEN INVITE
9 PEOPLE'S ARGUMENT IF FOR SOME REASON THE EVIDENTIARY l
10 PORTION OR THE INSTRUCTIONS OR THE ARGUMENTS TAKE
11 LONGER. l
12 SEEMS PRETTY LIKELY THE CASE WILL GET TO THE
13 JURORS ON THURSDAY RATHER THAN WEDNESDAY. THANK YOU
l
14
15
BOTH. WE'LL SEE YOU WEDNESDAY MORNING AT 9:00. THE
COURTROOM IS NOT GOING TO BE USED, SO FEEL FREE TO LEAVE
1
16 WHATEVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO IN THE COURTROOM. THANK YOU. l
17 WE ARE IN RECESS.
19 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 20, 2011, AT 9:00A.M.)
20 Ill l
21 Ill
22 Ill
l
23
24
Ill
Ill
1
25 Ill l
26 Ill
27 Ill l
28 Ill
1
,
J
STATE OF CALIFORNIA)
ss
I , PEGGY C. SIINO , OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER OF

THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, COUNTY OF
SAN DIEGO , DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT PAGES 2247 THROUGH
2510 , INCLUSIVE , CONTAIN A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT
OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE - ENTITLED MATTER ON
MONDAY , APRIL 18 , 2011 .
DATED : AUGUST 15 , 2011.
C . SIINO
CSR NO . 6263
~~~
DIVISION ONE

OF CALIFORNIA, ) HON . CHARLES G. ROGERS ,
) JUDGE
PLAINTIFF AND )
) NO. 0060019
vs . )
)
) NO. SCD230596
DEFENDANT AND )
APPELLANT. ) TRIAL AND
) JURY INSTRUCTIONS

VOLUME 18
APRIL 20, 2011
APPEARANCES :
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AND APPELLANT :
REPORTED BY : PEGGY C. SIINO , CSR NO . 6263

r

)
r OF CALIFORNIA,
PLAINTIFF,
)
)
)
)
D.A. NO. ACV800
r vs.
)
)
)
r
)
______________________________
DEFENDANT. ) )
APRIL 20, 2011
r
r APPEARANCES:
r DISTRICT ATTORNEY
330 WEST BROAD~Y, SUITE 750
il SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92101
i FOR THE DEFENDANT: HULLINGER & SPEREDELOZZI

RETAINED COUNSEL
i

r
!
l
r
!
r
r WITNESSES
r FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ

PAGE
2514
r
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 2558
JANA BEARD

2585
2589
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
r
i
t.
r
r INDEX OF EXHIBITS
r PEOPLE'S 267
PEOPLE'S 268
PHOTOGRAPH OF VICTOR RAMOS
PHOTOGRAPH OF TOMAS LOPEZ
2540
2541
r PEOPLE'S 269 PHOTOGRAPH OF JOSEPH NIETO 2542
r EXHIBIT NUMBER
EXHIBITS RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE
PAGE
r DEFENSE EXHIBITS
EXHIBITS WITHDRAWN
2583
r EXHIBIT NUMBER PAGE
F PEOPLE'S 24 2580
I
'
PEOPLE'S 86 2580
r
r
r
r
r
r
r 2511
r 1 SAN DIEGO, CALIF.; WEDNESDAY, APRIL 20, 2011; 9:03AM
r 2
r 5
6
THE COURT:
GOOD MORNING.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU AND
A PLEASANT GOOD MORNING TO EACH ONE OF
i 7
8
YOU. THE RECORD WILL REFLECT ALL JURORS ARE PRESENT.
ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. MR. JUROR NO. 7 IS
r 9
10
PRESENT, DESPITE HAVING INJURED HIS KNEE.
SIR, YOU LOOKED LIKE YOU WERE IN DISCOMFORT AS
r 11 YOU WALKED IN. ARE YOU ABLE TO CONCENTRATE ON THE
r 12
13
PROCEEDINGS?
JUROR NO. 7: OH, SURE. JUST AS LONG AS I
r 14
15
DON'T HAVE TO MOVE AROUND, IT WILL BE ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: OKAY. WOULD IT BE PREFERABLE WITH
r 16
17
YOU IF I EITHER TRADED YOUR POSITION WITH MADAM SECOND
ALTERNATE IN THE BACK ROW, OR ELSE SAT YOU THERE NEXT TO
rl 18 THE ALTERNATE ON THE GROUND FLOOR?
19 JUROR NO. 7: GOING UPSTAIRS WOULD BE KIND
r 20 OF --
r 21
22
THE COURT: GOOD POINT.
MORE CHALLENGING THAN IT NEEDS TO BE.
I NEED NOT MAKE IT
r 23
24
MR. ALTERNATE SEATED THERE IN FRONT OF THE BAR,
ARE YOU ABLE TO SIT IN SEAT 7?
r
i 25 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 1: SURE.
26 THE COURT: NO LEG OR BACK PROBLEMS?
r 27 ALTERNATE JUROR NO. 1: NO.
r 28 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE DO THAT. WE'RE GOING
~
I
2512
l
1 TO MAKE A SWAP. FOR PURPOSES OF THE RECORD, FOR THE
2 BALANCE OF THIS TRIAL, MR. FIRST ALTERNATE WILL NOW l
3 OCCUPY SEAT 7, AND THE JUROR WHO WAS IN SEAT 7 WILL BE
~
4 SEATED IN THE SEAT FORMERLY OCCUPIED BY MR. FIRST l
5 ALTERNATE; THE REASON FOR THAT BEING BECAUSE WE ALL
6 KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, BUT A REVIEWING COURT MIGHT NOT
7 THE SEAT IN WHICH THE ALTERNATE IS SITTING IS AGAINST
8 THE BAR AND THE RAILING IN THE BACK OF THE COURTROOM AND
~
I
9 SEPARATES THE GALLERY AND DOES NOT REQUIRE CLIMBING.
10 IT'S AT FLOOR LEVEL.
11 MR. JUROR IN SEAT 7 ORIGINALLY, THANK YOU FOR l J
12 CONTINUING TO SERVE DESPITE THIS ISSUE, AND IF YOU

13 THE RULING IS FOR EVERYBODY: ANY TIME ANYBODY NEEDS A
,
14 BREAK, LET ME KNOW, WE'LL TAKE A BREAK, BUT I'LL
15 ESPECIALLY EMPHASIZE IT RIGHT NOW.
16 ALL PARTIES AND COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. WE'LL
J
17 CONTINUE WITH THE PRESENTATION OF THE EVIDENCE. MY

18 SENSE, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IS IT IS LIKELY WE WILL
19 CONCLUDE THE EVIDENCE BEFORE, AND PERHAPS SUBSTANTIALLY
20 BEFORE, THE NOON HOUR. THIS IS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
21 ONE POSSIBLE WITNESS THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT OUTSIDE
22 OF YOUR PRESENCE, AND THAT WITNESS WON'T BE AVAILABLE
23 UNTIL 1:30.
24 MY SENSE IS THE WAY THIS CASE WILL PLAY OUT IS
25 THIS: WE'LL FINISH THE TESTIMONY OF MR. DOMINGUEZ.
26 THERE MAY BE ANOTHER DEFENSE WITNESS. WE'LL THEN RECESS
27 UNTIL 1:30. DURING THAT RECESS, COUNSEL AND I WILL
28 FINALIZE THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS.
r 2513
r 1 JUST AS A POINT OF TRIVIA, IF YOU LOOK
r 2
3
STATISTICALLY AT THE CASES IN WHICH THERE HAS BEEN A
CONVICTION AND THE MATTER HAS GONE TO APPEAL --
r 4 REVERSALS ARE ACTUALLY RARE, DESPITE WHAT YOU READ IN
r 5
6
THE PAPER, BUT THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE FOR REVERSALS, WHEN
THEY DO OCCUR, IS INSTRUCTIONAL ERROR.
r 7
8
SO I THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO ASK YOUR
INDULGENCE TO GIVE US THE TIME TO REALLY FRONT-LOAD THE
r 9
10
ANALYSIS ON THESE JURY INSTRUCTIONS NOW, RATHER THAN
HAVE SOME COURT OF APPEAL TRYING TO WORRY ABOUT IT LATER
r 11 ON, SHOULD IT COME TO THAT.
12 SO MY THOUGHT IS WE'LL RECESS WHEN THE
r 13 TESTIMONY IS DONE THIS MORNING, I'LL ASK YOU TO COME
r 14
15
BACK AT 1:30, AND AT 1:30 ONE OF TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN:
EITHER WE'LL HEAR SOME BRIEF TESTIMONY FROM ONE WITNESS
r 16
17
AND WE'LL MOVE INTO JURY INSTRUCTIONS, OR I'LL MOVE INTO
JURY INSTRUCTIONS, FOLLOWING WHICH YOU WILL HEAR THE
r 18 ARGUMENTS OF COUNSEL AND YOU'LL BE DELIVERED THE MATTER
r 19
20
FOR DECISION.
AS YOU ALL KNOW, THIS IS A CASE THAT HAS
i 21 COVERED A LOT OF TERRITORY, AND COUNSEL ARE GOING TO

!
22 NEED SOME TIME TO MAKE THEIR ARGUMENTS. I'M NOT GOING
r 23
24
TO PUT UNREASONABLE TIME LIMITS ON THEM, SO IT'S LIKELY
THAT WHICHEVER WAY IT PLAYS OUT AT 1:30, THE CASE WON'T
~
) 25 COME TO YOU UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING SOMETIME.
26 THANK YOU, EACH ONE OF YOU, FOR YOUR CONTINUED
~
l 27 SERVICE IN THIS MATTER AND YOUR CONSCIENTIOUS ATTENTION
F 28 TO IT.
r
2514
1 \
1 MR. DOMINGUEZ, GOOD MORNING. MAY I ASK THAT

1
,
2 YOU RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE. THANK YOU.
3 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
4 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. J
THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, MR. TROCHA.

5
1
6 MR. TROCHA: GOOD MORNING, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
7 THE COURT: MR. TROCHA, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR
8 EXAMINATION.
10 FLORENCIO JOSE DOMINGUEZ,
11 THE DEFENDANT, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY FIRST DULY SWORN,
12 TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION {CONTINUED)
14 BY MR. TROCHA:
15 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WE LEFT OFF ON MONDAY TALKING
16 ABOUT PEOPLE'S 231 BEHIND YOU.
17 A. YES.
18 Q. YOU TESTIFIED ON MONDAY THAT THIS STUDIO YOU
19 SPECIFICALLY OPENED IN SPRING VALLEY BECAUSE IT WAS
20 OUTSIDE OF SHELLTOWN; IS THAT CORRECT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT INFLUENCE, SUCH AS THE
23 GANG, BEING AROUND THIS STUDIO, CORRECT?
24 A. NO, NOT AT ALL. I JUST WANTED AN AREA WHERE WE
25 COULD GO AND BE AWAY FROM THE DAILY TROUBLES THAT, YOU
26 KNOW, WE WOULD HAVE IF WE ACTUALLY HAD THAT STUDIO IN
27 SHELLTOWN.
28 Q. WHICH WOULD BE CAUSED BY CRIME, POLICE AND GANG
r 2515
r 1 ACTIVITY WITHIN SHELLTOWN, CORRECT?
r 2 A. JUST TO BE OUT OF THAT GENERAL AREA,
r 3
4
MR. TROCHA.
Q. AND THIS WAS NOT TO PROMOTE THE GANG AT ALL.
r 5
6
THIS WAS JUST ACTUALLY TO PROMOTE YOUR MUSIC AND BEING
AROUND YOUR FRIENDS, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
WHAT, THE STUDIO?
YES.
r 9
10
A.
MR. TROCHA.
THE STUDIO WAS TO ACTUALLY RECORD MUSIC,
r 11 Q. WHAT MUSIC WAS BEING RECORDED THE NIGHT THAT
r 12
13
PICTURE WAS TAKEN, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA WHEN THAT PICTURE WAS TAKEN.
r 14
15
Q. WHY IS EVERYBODY IN THAT PICTURE THROWING UP
SHELLTOWN GANG SIGNS, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 16
17
A.
THE CAMERA.
BECAUSE WE WERE TAKING A PICTURE, POSING FOR
r 18 Q. WHY ARE THEY THROWING UP SHELLTOWN GANG SIGNS,
r 19
20
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 21
22
ANSWERED.
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
CAMERA, MR. TROCHA.

BECAUSE WE WERE POSING FOR THE
r 25 BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO EVERY TIME YOU POSE FOR THE CAMERA, YOU
r
26
27 THROW UP GANG SHELLTOWN GANG SIGNS?
r
I
28 A. I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY SAY THAT.
F'
I
, j
2516
l
1 Q. SO EVERYBODY GOT TOGETHER AND DECIDED
~\
2 SPONTANEOUSLY TO THROW UP SHELLTOWN GANG SIGNS FOR THE j
3 CAMERA AT YOUR HOUSE?
5 IT.
A. I MEAN, WE DIDN'T GET TOGETHER AND AGREE UPON
LIKE I SAID, EVERYBODY POSED FOR THE CAMERA. I'M ,

l
6
7
THROWING IT UP.
ELSE IS DOING.
I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT EVERYBODY
I DIDN'T GET EVERYBODY TOGETHER AND SAY,

, I
j
8 "OKAY, ONE, TWO, THREE, EVERYBODY THROW UP GANG SIGNS."
9 WE NEVER DID THAT. IT WAS JUST A PICTURE TAKEN. WE
10 WERE ALL POSING FOR THE CAMERA.
11 Q. MOVING TO PEOPLE'S 232, ANOTHER PICTURE ON THE
12 SAME NIGHT, PEOPLE ARE AGAIN THROWING UP SHELLTOWN GANG
13 SIGNS IN THIS PICTURE TOO, CORRECT?
14 A. YEAH. I'M SURE THERE WAS PLENTY OF PICTURES ~

l
J
15 TAKEN THAT NIGHT. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT NIGHT,
16 MR. TROCHA. 1
17 Q. THIS IS ENCOURAGING GANG MEMBERSHIP, IS IT NOT?
,
18 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S ENCOURAGING IT?
19 Q. YOU ARE PROMOTING SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET IN

i
20 THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, CORRECT?
21 A. HOW AM I PROMOTING SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET IN
22 THIS PICTURE? HOW IS THAT A PROMOTION OF SHELLTOWN? I

23 DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
24 Q. YOU'RE AN OLDER MEMBER OF SHELLTOWN, CORRECT?
25 A. YEAH. I'VE BEEN FROM SHELLTOWN WHEN I WAS
26 YOUNGER. I'M OLDER NOW.
27 Q. YOU'RE SHOWING OFF YOUR RECORDING STUDIO TO THE
28 YOUNGER MEMBERS, CORRECT?
, I
r 2517
r 1 A. I'M NOT SHOWING IT OFF. THOSE DOORS ARE OPEN
r 2 TO ANY OF THOSE KIDS THAT WANT TO GO THERE AT ANY TIME.

3 Q. YES, WE HEARD ABOUT THAT ON MONDAY, BECAUSE
r 4 SOMEBODY TAGGED YOUR OWN HOUSE, CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YEAH.
WITH SHELLTOWN GRAFFITI, CORRECT?
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
AND THESE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN AFTER THAT TIME ARE
r 9
10
YOU AND OTHER MEMBERS THROWING UP SHELLTOWN GANG SIGNS,
CORRECT?
r 11 A. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER THE
r 12
13
TAGGING.
EXACT DATE.
I KNOW THAT WAS IN '09. I DON'T REMEMBER THE
r
\
14
15
Q.
A.
THIS IS RECRUITING NEW MEMBERS, CORRECT?
NO. HOW IS THAT RECRUITING NEW MEMBERS?
r
'
16
17
Q. WE HAVE OLDER GANG MEMBERS, INCLUDING YOURSELF,
WITH AT LEAST HALF A DOZEN PROSPECTIVE GANG MEMBERS.
r 18 A. THOSE KIDS WERE ALREADY COMING TO SHELLTOWN
r 19
20
WHEN -- I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THOSE KIDS THAT NIGHT.
NOT LIKE I WAS RECRUITING, LIKE I WENT TO SHELLTOWN AND

IT'S
r 21
22
WAS TELLING KIDS,
GANG."
"OH, YOU GUYS NEED TO BE PART OF THE
THEY WERE THERE FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY WANTED
r 23
24
TO BE THERE THAT DAY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS.
BUT, LIKE I SAID, THOSE DOORS ARE OPEN TO
r 25 ANYBODY FROM SHELLTOWN, MR. TROCHA. ANYBODY FROM
r
26 SHELLTOWN COULD GO THERE ANY GIVEN DAY, EITHER JUST TO
27 RECORD OR JUST TO GET AWAY FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
r 28 THERE IS NO RECRUITING GOING ON THERE,
r
i
, I
2518
l J
1 MR. TROCHA. THOSE KIDS -- LIKE I SAID, I WOULDN'T EVEN
2 KNOW THEIR NAMES IF IT WASN'T FOR THIS TRIAL. BUT THERE 1 J
3 IS NO RECRUITING GOING ON. THERE IS NO PROMOTION OF NO

'il
4 GANG GOING ON. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY. I
5 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, YOU TESTIFIED ON MONDAY THAT YOU
6 DON'T HANG OUT WITH THE YOUNGER GANG MEMBERS AND YOU
7 HAVEN'T SINCE YOU LEFT THE GANG IN 2000.
8 DID YOU SAY THAT OR DIDN'T YOU?

~)
,
9 A. I NEVER SAID I DON'T HANG OUT WITH YOUNGER GANG I
10 MEMBERS, MR. TROCHA.

11 Q. YOU SAID YOU DON'T KNOW THE YOUNGER GANG J
12 MEMBERS' NAMES. ~
I
!
13 A. I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES.
14 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION.
15 A. YOU JUST ASKED ME --
~
16 THE COURT: ONE AT A TIME, PLEASE. I
17 BY MR. TROCHA:
,
18
19
20
Q. YOU SAID YOU DON'T KNOW YOUNGER GANG MEMBERS'
NAMES BECAUSE YOU DON'T HANG OUT WITH THEM, YES OR NO?
A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT.

, I
I
21 Q. YES OR NO, MR. --

22 A. I SAID I DIDN'T KNOW THEIR NAMES.
~
23 THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS: DID YOU SAY IT? I
24 THE WITNESS: NO, I DID NOT.

25 THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THAT?
26 THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T.
27 THE COURT: THAT'S THE ANSWER.
28 Ill
'i I
r 2519
r 1 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 2 Q. YET THEY'RE AT YOUR HOUSE, YES?
r 3
4
A.
STUDIO.
THAT'S NOT MY HOUSE, MR. TROCHA. THAT'S MY
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHICH YOU --
THEY'VE NEVER BEEN TO MY HOUSE. NOBODY'S EVER
r 7
8
BEEN TO MY HOUSE. IF YOU WOULD ALLOW ME TO FINISH LIKE
I'M ALLOWING YOU TO FINISH, THAT WOULD BE NICE.
r 9 Q. WHICH YOU HAVE YOUR RECORDING STUDIO IN YOUR
r 10
11
NAME, CORRECT?
A. THAT WHOLE PROPERTY IS UNDER MY NAME, YES. BUT
r 12
13
THAT IS NOT MY HOUSE WHERE ME AND MY WIFE AND MY KIDS
STAY.
r 14
15
Q. SO YOUNGER GANG MEMBERS CAME TO A PROPERTY THAT
YOU OWNED AND THREW UP SHELLTOWN GANG SIGNS, YES OR
r 16
17
A. THAT IS A RECORDING STUDIO, MR. TROCHA.
THE COURT: SIR, THE QUESTION IS: YOUNGER GANG
r 18 MEMBERS CAME TO A PROPERTY THAT YOU OWNED AND THREW UP
r 19
20
GANG SIGNS, YES OR NO?
THE WITNESS: YES. IT'S IN THAT PICTURE.
r
I
21
22
THE COURT:
YOU HAVE TO SAY.
SO THE ANSWER IS "YES." THAT'S ALL
r 23
24
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
YES.
NEXT QUESTION.
r 25 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 26
27
Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO
PROMOTE SHELLTOWN 38TH STREET?
r 28 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ASKED AND
i
2520
1
2
ANSWERED.
THE COURT: LAST TIME. YOU MAY ANSWER.
, I
_j
3 THE WITNESS: THERE IS NO PROMOTION OF ANY

4 GANG. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO GET AT, BUT l
5 NO. ,
~
7 NEXT QUESTION. i
l
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
~'
9 Q. LET'S MOVE ON TO THE LIL CROOKS MURDER,
10 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
11 YOU WERE IN SHELLTOWN FOR THAT, YES?
12 A. YES. I WAS CALLED THERE BY MARLA QUINTANILLA.
l
13
14
Q. ON THIS DATE AND TIME, ON JULY 2, 2008, YOU
HEARD A GUNSHOT, YES OR NO?
, 1
15 A. YES.
16 Q. YOU DID NOT RUN AWAY FROM THAT GUNSHOT, THOUGH,
17 CORRECT?
18
19
20
A. I WAS DOWN THE STREET. WHY WOULD I RUN IF I'M
NOT STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO WHERE THEY'RE SHOOTING?
DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THE GUNSHOT WAS COMING FROM.
I , )
21 THE COURT: SO THE ANSWER IS CORRECT. YOU DID

22 NOT RUN AWAY?
23 THE WITNESS: CORRECT.
25 BY MR. TROCHA:
26 Q. INSTEAD, YOU DROVE TOWARDS THE GUNSHOT,
27 CORRECT?
28 A. BECAUSE I HEARD MY FRIEND HAD GOT SHOT -- ~
I
,
I
I
r
2521
r 1
r
THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS: DID YOU DRIVE
2 TOWARDS THE GUNSHOT?
3 THE WITNESS: YEAH. I'M JUST TRYING TO TELL
r 4 HIM WHY.
r 5
6
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
HE DIDN'T ASK WHY.
OKAY.
r 7
8
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. THIS WAS AFTER A YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN BOY
r 9 NAMED D'ANTE RAN UP TO YOU, YES OR NO?

10 A. YES.
r 11 Q. SO YET ANOTHER YOUNG PERSON IN SHELLTOWN THAT
12 YOU KNOW.
r 13 A. HE WASN'T YOUNG. HE WAS IN HIS MID-20'S AT THE
F 14 TIME.
r
15 Q. SO WHEN THE PERSON WAS DESCRIBED AS A YOUNG
r 16
17
BLACK CHILD, THAT IS INCORRECT?
A. THAT'S INCORRECT, YES.

r 18 Q. AT THE SCENE OF THE SHOOTING THAT YOU DROVE TO,
19 YOU TRIED TO GIVE AID TO LIL CROOKS, YES OR NO?

r 20 A. I DIDN'T TRY TO GIVE AID TO HIM, NO.
r 21
22
Q.
CORRECT?
YOU TRIED TO SEE WHAT WAS WRONG WITH HIM,
r 23
24
A. I TRIED TO SEE IF HE WAS OKAY. I DIDN'T
ADMINISTER ANY KIND OF MEDICAL AID OR ANYTHING LIKE
r 25 THAT. I WOULDN'T KNOW HOW.
26 Q. YOU PICKED HIM UP OFF THE GROUND, YES?

r 27 A. I TRIED TO CARRY HIM TO THE CAR, YES.
r 28 Q. AND YOU CARRIED HIM TO MARLA'S VAN.
r
~
J
2522
\
1 A. YES. MARLA PULLED UP. , j
2 Q. YOU TOLD HER TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL, YES?

,
I
J
3 A. YES.
4
5
6
Q. AFTER THAT YOU ATTEMPTED TO COMFORT SMOKEY AND
DOWNER, CORRECT?
A. NO.
, j
7 Q. YOU WERE CONCERNED FOR THEIR EMOTIONAL

8 WELL-BEING, IS WHAT YOU SAID ON MONDAY, CORRECT?
,
~
9 A. I NEVER SAID THAT, NO. \
;
10 Q. YOU SAID THEY WERE NERVOUS, THEY APPEARED TO BE

11 IN SHOCK, AND YOU FELT THAT THEY NEEDED TO GET AWAY FROM I
12 THE SCENE.
13 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. COMPOUND.
l
~
14 THE WITNESS: I NEVER SAID THAT. \
!

16 BY MR. TROCHA: l
17 Q. YOU NEVER SAID THAT?
18
19
20
A. NO.
LOOKING SHOCKED.
I SAID THEY WERE JUST STANDING THERE,
TOLD THEM "LEAVE."

I WAS TRYING TO GET TO THE CAR.
THAT'S ALL.
I
I NEVER SAID I NEEDED
, l
21 TO COMFORT THEM OR TRY TO GIVE THEM A HUG OR ANYTHING

22
23
LIKE THAT, NO.
Q. YOU FELT BAD FOR THEM, SO YOU TOLD THEM TO GO
, j
24 HOME, YES?
~
25 A. MR. TROCHA, THERE WAS A LOT GOING ON IN -- )
i
26 Q. YES OR NO?
27
28
A. -- MY MIND.
I DIDN'T FEEL BAD FOR ANYBODY? WHY WOULD I , }
l
r 2523
r 1 FEEL BAD FOR THEM? WHO I FELT BAD FOR WAS MY FRIEND WHO
r 2 WAS SHOT.
r 3
4
Q.
A.
YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T UPSET WITH THEM AT ALL --
NO.
r 5
6
Q.
CORRECT?
-- BECAUSE YOU WERE MORE UPSET WITH LIL CROOKS,
r 7
8
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
THAT'S BECAUSE LIL CROOKS, WHEN THE GUN WAS
r 9 PULLED, DIDN'T RUN AWAY, CORRECT?
10 A. YEAH. HE DIDN'T.
r'
I
\ 11 Q. HE INSTEAD, WHEN THE GUN WAS PULLED, ATTEMPTED
r 12
13
TO CONTINUE FIGHTING WITH THE PERSON WITH THE GUN.
A. YES.
r 14
15
Q.
A.
WHEREAS MOISES RAN AWAY, CORRECT?
HE DID NOT RUN AWAY.
r 16 Q. WELL, DID HE GET SHOT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r
17 A. I DON'T KNOW. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL YOU.
18 I WASN'T THERE. WHEN I GOT THERE, HE WAS THERE. SO IF
r 19
20
HE WOULD HAVE RAN, HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE, RIGHT?
Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO TELL US ALL THESE OTHER FACTS,
r 21
22
BUT YOU CAN'T TELL US WHETHER OR NOT MOISES RAN AWAY?
A. I WASN'T THERE. I WASN'T ABLE TO TELL YOU
r 23
24
EVERY SINGLE FACT.
THROUGH.
I TOLD YOU WHAT I SEEN, WHAT I WENT
I DIDN'T TELL YOU WHAT THEY SAW OR WHAT THEY
r 25 WENT THROUGH. I COULDN'T DO THAT.
r
26 Q. SO GETTING BACK TO THE SCENE, YOU DRIVE TO THE
27 SCENE OF THE SHOOTING NOT KNOWING WHETHER THE SHOOTER IS
r 28 STILL THERE, CORRECT?
~
I
\
2524
1
l
1
2
A.
Q.
I DIDN'T KNOW IF THE SHOOTER WAS THERE OR NOT.
SO YOU DROVE TO THE SCENE WHERE THERE WAS

, J
3 GUNFIRE, NOT KNOWING IF YOU COULD GET SHOT AS WELL,

l
4
5
CORRECT?
A. I WASN'T WORRIED ABOUT THAT AT THE TIME. ,
,
j
6 THE COURT: SO THE ANSWER IS CORRECT?
7 THE WITNESS: CORRECT, YEAH.

J
8 BY MR. TROCHA:
9 Q. YOU STUCK AROUND THE SCENE, PICKING UP LIL
10 CROOKS, AGAIN, NOT KNOWING IF THE SHOOTER WAS STILL
11 THERE. l
12 A. YEAH. I GUESS, YEAH.
13 Q. YOU PUT HIM IN THE VAN, STILL NOT KNOWING IF

l
14
15
YOUR LIFE WAS IN DANGER FROM A PERSON WITH A GUN.
A. YEAH, AND SO WAS MOISES LOPEZ. SO HE DIDN'T

l
16 RUN.
l
17 Q. SO YOU SAY, MR. DOMINGUEZ. BUT LET'S GET TO
18 THAT.
19 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. THAT'S NOT A
20 QUESTION. l
21 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. STRICKEN.
22 BY MR. TROCHA:
23 Q. YOU TALKED TO MOISES AND DOWNER AT THE SCENE,
24 NOT KNOWING IF THE PERSON WITH THE GUN WAS STILL AROUND.
25 A. THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS WORRIED ABOUT.
26 Q. AFTERWARDS YOU DROVE TO A FRIEND HECTOR'S

27 HOUSE, CORRECT? l
28 A. YES.
l
, I
r 2525
r 1 Q. THEN FOR SIX HOURS YOU DROVE AROUND TO EVERY

r ~ 2 HOSPITAL YOU KNEW OF LOOKING FOR LIL CROOKS, CORRECT?
r 3
4
A.
Q.
HIS NAME IS EDWIN, BY THE WAY.
WHICH WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME YOU CORRECTED ME,
r 5
6
CORRECT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 7
8
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? WHAT DO
r 9 YOU WANT ME TO DO?
r
l
10
11
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. SO HIS NAME IS LIL CROOKS, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A. HIS NAME IS EDWIN.
CROOKS WHEN HE WAS ALIVE.

HE WAS NEVER CALLED LIL
r 14
15
Q. WELL, WE'LL GET TO THAT AS WELL.
EDWIN -- YOU DROVE AROUND SIX HOURS LOOKING FOR
r 16
17
HIM, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 18 Q. TO EVERY HOSPITAL.
r 19
20
A.
Q.
YES.
FOR THIS PARTICULAR MURDER, YOU'RE ABLE TO TELL
r 21
22
US EXACTLY WHERE EVERYBODY IS AT THE TIME OF THE MURDER,
CORRECT?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO, I CANNOT.
WELL, YOU TOLD US WHERE EDWIN WAS AT THE TIME,
r 25 CORRECT?
r 26
27
A.
Q.
NO, I DID NOT.
YOU TOLD US WHERE MOISES WAS AT THE TIME YOU
SAW HIM, CORRECT?

28
2526
l
1
2
A.
Q.
NO, I DID NOT.
YOU TOLD US WHERE DOWNER WAS AT THE TIME YOU
,
:1
3 SAW HIM, CORRECT?

l
4
5
6
A.
THEM.
NO. I TOLD YOU WHERE THEY WERE AT WHEN I SEEN
I DIDN'T SEE THE ACTUAL SHOOTING HAPPEN.
DIDN'T KNOW IT HAPPENED.

I , )
~
7
9
Q. YOU TOLD US WHERE MARLA WAS AT THE TIME OF THE
SHOOTING, CORRECT?
A. SHE DROVE RIGHT PAST ME RIGHT BEFORE THE

,J
10 GUNSHOT WENT OFF.

)
)
11 Q. YOU TOLD US EXACTLY WHERE EDWIN WAS FOUND AFTER
12 HE WAS SHOT, CORRECT?
13
14
A.
Q.
YES. I DROVE UP TO HIM.
YOU TOLD UA WHERE HE WAS BEFORE THE SHOOTING, ,

15 CORRECT?
, )
,
16 A. NO. I
17 Q. YOU TOLD US WHERE HE WAS BEFORE THE SHOOTING,
18 THOUGH.
19 A. I DIDN'T SEE -- WHEN THE SHOOTING HAPPENED, I

l
20
21
22
DIDN'T SEE ANY OF THAT THAT HAPPENED.
Q. YOU TOLD US ACTUALLY FACTS THAT WERE TOLD TO
YOU THAT OCCURRED DURING THE SHOOTING, CORRECT?

, J
23 A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT. CAN YOU
24 BE MORE SPECIFIC, PLEASE?
25
26
Q. SUCH AS EDWIN DIDN'T RUN WHEN THE GUN WAS
PULLED, CORRECT?
,
1 !
27
28
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
SUCH AS EDWIN FOUGHT THE PERSON WITH THE GUN. , J
J
r 2527
r 1 A. THAT'S WHAT I TOLD YOU I HEARD, THAT I WAS

r 2 TOLD, MR. TROCHA. I DIDN'T TELL YOU I WITNESSED THAT.
3 Q. AFTER THIS MURDER, YOU TOLD US YOU LAUNCHED AN
r 4 INVESTIGATION INTO THE MURDER TO SEE WHO DID IT,
r 5
6
CORRECT?
A. AN INVESTIGATION?
r 7
8
Q.
A.
YES.
I NEVER SAID THAT, NO.
r 9 Q. YOU DIDN'T GO AROUND ASKING AND TRYING TO FIND
r
10 WITNESSES TO THIS MURDER?
11 A. NO. WE WERE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED.
r 12
13
Q. YOU TOLD US ON MONDAY THAT YOU WENT AROUND
LOOKING FOR PEOPLE, AGAIN, TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED,
r 14
15
CORRECT?
A. I DIDN'T GO LOOKING FOR ANYBODY. I WANTED TO
r 16
17
TALK TO THE KIDS THAT EDWIN WAS WITH, MR. TROCHA.
DIDN'T LAUNCH A FULL-SCALE INVESTIGATION OR ANYTHING
I
r 18 LIKE THAT.
r 19
20
Q. WELL, IN TERMS OF FINDING MOISES, YOU HAD TO
TALK TO SOMEBODY THAT KNEW A GUY NAMED CARLOS, CORRECT?
r 21
22
A. NO. I SAID CARLOS WAS MY FRIEND'S YOUNGER
BROTHER THAT HANGS AROUND WITH MOISES. THAT'S WHAT I
r 23
24
SAID.
Q. AND YOU TALKED TO THIS PERSON TO TRY TO GET TO
[ 25 MOISES, CORRECT?
26 A. I JUST WANTED TO TALK TO HIM. I JUST WANTED TO
r 27 KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
r 28 THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS: DID YOU TALK TO
r
2528
,
l
1 THIS PERSON TO GET TO MOISES?
l l
2 THE WITNESS: YES, CORRECT.
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. AND THEN THIS PERSON GOT YOU IN TOUCH WITH

1
5 MOISES, CORRECT?
6 A. HE CALLED HIM ON THE PHONE, YES.

~
7 Q. AND YOU TALKED TO HIM ON THE PHONE.
J
8 A. BRIEFLY.
9 Q. MOISES IS A 38TH STREET GANG MEMBER, CORRECT? l

10 A. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, YEAH.
11 Q. AND AT THIS POINT THE ONLY TIME YOU EVER SAW 1

12 SMOKEY WAS AT THE TIME EDWIN GOT SHOT, CORRECT?
13 A. YES.
l
14
15
Q. AT THIS TIME YOU ALSO HAD BEEN OUT OF THE GANG
FOR ABOUT EIGHT TO NINE YEARS, CORRECT?

1
16
17
A.
Q.
I WAS, YEAH. I WASN'T ACTIVE.
SO YOU'RE TELLING US SMOKEY, A GANG MEMBER,

1
18 TALKED TO SOMEBODY WHO ISN'T A GANG MEMBER, SOMEBODY HE l
19 DOESN'T KNOW AT ALL, ABOUT A GANG MURDER?
20 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. 1

21
22
IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID, SIR?

l
23
24
THE WITNESS:
KNEW WHO I WAS.

NO. I MET HIM THAT NIGHT.
ALL THESE KIDS KNOW WHO I AM JUST DUE

HE
l
25 TO OUR MUSIC, MR. TROCHA. THERE'S NO SECRET WHO I AM l I
26 DOWN THERE. THEY KNOW US. THEY GOT OUR CD'S, OUR
27 POSTERS, OUR FLYERS. THEY KNOW WHO I AM. THEY KNOW MY l
28 NICKNAME, WHATEVER. THEY KNOW WHO I AM. IT'S NO SECRET
1
r 2529
r 1 WHO I AM TO THESE KIDS, MR. TROCHA.
r 2 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 3
4
Q. YOU'RE SAYING A GANG MEMBER TALKED TO SOMEBODY
WHO IS NOT A GANG MEMBER ABOUT GANG BUSINESS, CORRECT?
5 YES OR NO?
r 6 A. THAT'S NOT WHAT I AM SAYING, NO.
r 7
8
Q. BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE SNITCHING, CORRECT,
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 9 A. ABOUT TALKING TO ME ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED? HOW
r 10
11
IS THAT SNITCHING?
Q. ABOUT 38TH STREET GANG BUSINESS TO A NON-38TH
r 12
13
STREET GANG MEMBER.
A. I DON'T KNOW.
THAT WOULD BE SNITCHING.
THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THIS CASE,
r 14
15
SO I WOULDN'T KNOW.
Q. WHAT DID MOISES TELL YOU ABOUT THE MURDER THEN,
r 16
17
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. HE JUST TOLD ME THAT THEY CONFRONTED SOME GUY
r 18 AND THAT EDWIN STARTED FIGHTING WITH THEM, AND HE SAID
r 19
20
THAT THE GUY PULLED OUT A GUN RIGHT AWAY ON EDWIN AND
THAT EDWIN WOULDN'T LET OFF ON HIM AND THE GUY JUST
r 21
22
EVENTUALLY SHOT EDWIN IN THE FACE. AND HE SAID THAT THE
SHOOTER JUST TURNED AROUND AND RAN RIGHT AWAY.
r 23
24
Q. SO A GANG MEMBER DID TELL YOU, A NON-GANG
MEMBER, EVIDENCE ABOUT A GANG SHOOTING, YES?
L 25 A. MR. TROCHA, THEY KNOW WHO I AM.

26 Q. HOW WOULD HE KNOW WHO YOU ARE IF YOU DON'T
r 27 ASSOCIATE WITH YOUNGER GANG MEMBERS, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 28 A. I JUST TOLD YOU. THESE KIDS BUY OUR CD'S.
r
2530
,
1
2
THEY LISTEN TO OUR MUSIC, MR. TROCHA.
POSTERS, OUR FLYERS.

THEY HAVE OUR
IT'S NO SECRET WHO I AM IN THAT

,
l
J
3 NEIGHBORHOOD, MR. TROCHA.
4 Q. YOU KNOW THIS ALL FROM MEETING MOISES LOPEZ FOR

1 J
5 A FEW MINUTES AFTER LIL CROOKS WAS SHOT ON THE STREET,
6 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
7 A. THAT THEY KNOW WHO I AM, YES. EVERYBODY KNOWS
8 WHO I AM RIGHT THERE, MR. TROCHA. YOU EVEN HEARD IT
9 FROM SOME OF THESE WITNESSES THAT GOT UP HERE. THEY l

10 DON'T KNOW WHO I AM SPECIFICALLY, BUT THEY HEARD OF ME
11 THROUGH MY MUSIC. 1
12 Q. ACTUALLY, WE HEARD FROM SEVERAL WITNESSES THAT
13 ARE 38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS THAT DON'T KNOW WHO YOU
l
14
15
ARE, CORRECT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. THEY DON'T KNOW ME PERSONALLY, YES.

1
l
16
17
18
Q.
A.
JOSUE GUTIERREZ BEING ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, YES?
HE SAID HE DOESN'T KNOW WHO I AM PERSONALLY,
YES, BUT SAID HE KNEW WHO I WAS.

, j
19 Q. HE WAS BEST FRIENDS WITH MOISES LOPEZ, YES?

1
20
21
22
A.
Q.
A.
YES.
YET HE DOESN'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE?
I NEVER HUNG OUT WITH HIM, MR. TROCHA, SO HE

, J
23
24
WOULDN'T KNOW --
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WE'VE SEEN ONE CD IN EVIDENCE,

1
~
I
,
25 CORRECT?
26 A. YEAH.
27
28
Q.
A.
YOUR NAME IS NOT ON THAT CD, IS IT?
IT'S MY MUSIC, MR. TROCHA. , j
l
r 2531
r
r
1 Q. LIL AL'S NAME IS ON THAT CD, IS IT NOT?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. YOUR NAME IS NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE CD,

r 4 CORRECT?
r 5
6
A.
THE POSTERS.
NOT ON THE CD ITSELF, BUT ON THE CD CASE, ON
MR. TROCHA, WE'VE DONE SHOWS ALL OVER
r 7
8
SAN DIEGO, ALL OVER CALIFORNIA, ALL OVER THE STATES.
YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN ON THE RADIO. WE'RE WELL-KNOWN.
r 9 THAT WAS -- MY RECORD LABEL WAS VERY WELL-KNOWN,
r
10 MR. TROCHA. IT'S NOT A SECRET WHO I AM, ESPECIALLY
11 COMING OUT OF THAT COMMUNITY. THAT'S ALL THE MUSIC WE
r 12
13
LISTEN TO, BECAUSE WE'RE FROM THAT AREA.
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHO ELSE DID YOU TRY TO FIND
r 14
15
INFORMATION FROM ABOUT LIL CROOKS' KILLING?
A. I TALKED TO DOWNER.
r 16
17
Q.
A.
YOU DID TALK TO DOWNER AS WELL?
YES, I DID.
r 18 Q. WHO IS DOWNER?
r 19
20
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW HIS REAL NAME.
YOU WERE ABLE TO FIND A PERSON YOU DON'T KNOW
r 21
22
TO FIND FACTS ABOUT A MURDER YOU WANTED INFORMATION ON,
YES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
YES.
HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO FIND DOWNER?
l 25 A. BY HIS NICKNAME, MR. TROCHA. JUST LIKE I WAS
r 26
27
ABLE TO FIND SMOKEY, MR. TROCHA.
SAYING "DO YOU KNOW MOISES LOPEZ?"

I DIDN'T GO DOWN THERE
I DIDN'T KNOW HIS
r 28 NAME. I WAS LOOKING FOR SMOKEY AND I WAS LOOKING FOR
r
2532
,
1
2
DOWNER, AND I WAS ABLE TO FIND THEM.
Q. DID YOU LOOK FOR DOWNER IN THE PHONE BOOK?
,
1
J
3 A. THAT'S RIDICULOUS, MR. TROCHA.

1
4
5
6
Q.
A.
THEN HOW DID YOU FIND DOWNER, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
THE SAME WAY I FOUND SMOKEY:
HIS FRIENDS.
THROUGH SOME OF , J
~
7 Q. WHO? f
1
8 A. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NAMES.

Q. YOU CAN'T TELL US THE NAMES OF THE PERSON WHO
~
9 )
10 GAVE YOU INFORMATION ON YOUR FRIEND'S LITTLE BROTHER
11 BEING MURDERED? l
12 A. DOWNER. I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH ONE OF THESE
13 KIDS GOT ME IN CONTACT WITH HIM. I REMEMBER WHO HE
1
14
15
TALKED TO, WHO HE WAS WITH THAT THEY TOLD ME THAT
SPECIFIC INFORMATION, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHO THESE
1
16 LITTLE KIDS -- IT WASN'T IMPORTANT TO ME. I JUST WANTED
l
17 TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED. IT WASN'T IMPORTANT WHO GOT
18 ME IN CONTACT WITH HIM OR ANY OF THAT. l
19 Q. FINDING OUT WHO MAY HAVE INFORMATION ON A
1
20
21
MURDER ABOUT YOUR FRIEND IS NOT IMPORTANT TO YOU,
MR. DOMINGUEZ? IS THAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID? ,
22
23
24
A. I JUST SAID THAT'S IMPORTANT TO ME, FINDING OUT
WHO CAN GET ME IN CONTACT WITH THEM. FINDING OUT THEIR
FIRST NAMES OR LAST NAMES OR IF THEY'RE IN THE PHONE
, J
25 BOOK, THAT'S IRRELEVANT TO ME, MR. TROCHA. l

26 Q. SO YOU ARE CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION INTO HIS
27
28
MURDER.
A. IT'S NOT AN INVESTIGATION, MR. TROCHA. ,
l
}
l
r 2533
~
1 Q. WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
[ 2 A. I JUST ASKED THESE KIDS WHAT HAPPENED. I
r 3
4
WASN'T OUT THERE WRITING REPORTS OR RECORDING WHAT THEY
WERE SAYING. I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. THEY
[ 5 TOLD ME WHAT HAPPENED.
THAT WAS IT.

I TOLD MARLA WHAT HAPPENED, AND
r 7
8
Q. DID YOU PASS THIS INFORMATION ON TO THE POLICE,
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 9 A. THEY NEVER CONTACTED ME.
r 10
11
Q.
A.
YES OR NO?
NO.
r 12
13
Q. YOU WERE JUST GOING TO HOLD ON TO THIS
INFORMATION FOR YOURSELF?

~
14 A. I GAVE IT TO MARLA. SHE WAS THE ONE THAT
I
15 WANTED IT.
r 16
17
Q. SO MARLA'S INFORMATION THAT SHE GAVE TO THE
POLICE WAS ACCURATE, CORRECT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 18 A. FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD.
r 19
20
Q.
A.
FROM WHAT YOU SAW IN THE VIDEO, CORRECT?
THAT'S WHAT I TOLD HER I WAS TOLD, YES.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
IT WASN'T DRUG-FUELED LIKE SHE TESTIFIED TO?
WHAT DRUG-FUELED?
r 23
24
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
SPECULATION.
r 26 THE WITNESS: YEAH, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE
27 TALKING ABOUT.
r 28 Ill
r
,
1 BY MR. TROCHA:
2534
,
2 Q. LET'S GET INTO THE MURDER OF SMOKEY, 1
3 MR. DOMINGUEZ.
l
4
6
A.
Q.
OKAY.
MOISES LOPEZ, AS WE'VE JUST HEARD -- HE IS ONE
OF THE 38TH STREET GANG MEMBERS WHO CAME FORWARD TO YOU
,
7
8
AND TOLD YOU INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR FRIEND'S MURDER,
YES?
l
1
9
10
11
A.
Q.
YEAH.
THIS IS THE SAME PERSON THAT YOU BASICALLY
RISKED YOUR LIFE FOR AT THE SCENE OF HIS MURDER,
,
CORRECT?
12
13 A. I WOULDN'T SAY I RISKED MY LIFE. THERE WAS ONE

1
~
14 GUNSHOT MINUTES BEFORE I GOT THERE, MR. TROCHA. IT'S
)
15 NOT LIKE I GOT THERE DUCKING AND DODGING BULLETS AND
16 ROLLING AROUND ON THE GROUND LIKE A COMMANDO OR ANYTHING
l
17 LIKE THAT.
1
18
19
Q. YOU WERE EXPLICIT ON MONDAY WHEN YOU TOLD US
THAT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE EVER SEEN ANYTHING
,
20
21
22
LIKE THIS HAPPEN, YES OR NO?
A.
Q.
YES.
YET YOU DROVE TO THE SCENE OF A SHOOTING
,
23
24
WITHOUT REGARD FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, YES?
A. I WOULDN'T SAY THAT, NO.
1
25 Q. YOU TALKED TO PEOPLE AT THE SCENE WITHOUT l
26 REGARD FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, YES?
27 A. NO. l
28 Q. ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WAS MOISES LOPEZ, YES?
l
l
r 2535
r 1 A. I TALKED TO MOISES AT THE SCENE, YES.
r 2 Q. THIS IS A PERSON YOU TOLD US KNOWS WHO YOU ARE
r 3
4
THROUGH YOUR MUSIC, THROUGH THE NEIGHBORHOOD, AND GROWS
UP LISTENING TO YOUR MUSIC, YES?
r 5
6
A.
Q.
YES.
A PERSON THAT COOPERATED WITH YOUR QUESTIONING,
r 7
8
YES?
A. HE TOLD ME WHAT HAPPENED, YES.
r 9
10
Q. THIS PERSON IS ALSO IN A PARK WHICH YOU HAVE A
SPECIAL AFFECTION FOR, YES?
r 11 A. A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THAT COMMUNITY DO.
r 12
13
Q.
YOUR BODY.
TO THE POINT THAT YOU TATTOOED THIS PARK ON
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YEAH.
BECAUSE YOU LOVE THIS PARK.
r 16
17
A.
Q.
YES, MR. TROCHA.
THIS IS A PARK WHERE OTHER SHELLTOWN GANG
r 18 MEMBERS HANG OUT, YES?
r 19
20
A. IT'S A PARK WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE HANG OUT, NOT
JUST SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS.
vm
I
21 Q. THIS IS A PARK SPECIFICALLY WHERE SHELLTOWN
I
22 GANG MEMBERS HANG OUT, YES?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
THIS IS A PARK WHERE SHELLTOWN GANG MEMBERS
r 25 WERE ACTUALLY HANGING OUT AT THE TIME YOU ROLLED UP,
r
26 YES?
27 A. I DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE HANGING OUT.
r 28 THE COURT: WHAT DAY?
r
2536
,
~
2
MR. TROCHA:
THE WITNESS:
ON SEPTEMBER 13, 2008.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS AT THE PARK

,
j
t
3 WHEN I ROLLED UP, MR. TROCHA.

l
4
5
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IS IN YOUR OWN PARK? ,

6
8
A.
Q.
A.
IT'S NOT MY PARK.
AT THIS PARK YOU HEAR A GUNSHOT, CORRECT?
SEVERAL GUNSHOTS.
,
9 Q. YOU HEAR ONE GUNSHOT FIRST, THOUGH, CORRECT? l
10 A. WELL, THAT'S USUALLY HOW GUNSHOTS START, WITH
11 ONE, YES. 1
Q. AND ACCORDING TO YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU'RE
12
1
13
14
15
STANDING RIGHT AT THE TRUNK OF DIANA BANUELOS'S CAR,
CORRECT?
A. I CAN'T TELL YOU IF I WAS RIGHT AT THE TRUNK.

,
16 I KNOW I WAS BEHIND THE CAR.
l
17 Q. YOU WERE JUST INSIDE OF HER CAR, CORRECT?
18 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN "JUST INSIDE"? l

19 Q. YOU WERE ARGUING WITH HER INSIDE OF HER CAR
20 BEFORE THE GUNSHOT, CORRECT? 1

21 A. YES.
22 Q. BEFORE THAT, YOU SAW DIANA BANUELOS DRIVE UP IN
23 HER CAR, CORRECT?
24 A. YEAH.
l
25
26
27
28
Q.
A.
Q.
SO YOU KNEW THE CAR WORKED, YES?
YEAH.
YOU WERE WITH THE PERSON AT THE TIME, DIANA

BANUELOS, WHO HAD THE KEYS TO THE CAR, CORRECT?
,
1
l
r 2537
r 1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND, YET, WHEN YOU HEAR A GUNSHOT, YOU RUN AWAY
r 3
4
FROM A PERFECTLY GOOD CAR, CORRECT?
A. CAN I ANSWER?
r 5
6
Q.
A.
YES OR NO?
CAN I ANSWER? BECAUSE THAT'S A COMPLEX ANSWER.
r 7
8
THE COURT:
YOU RUN AWAY?

THE ANSWER IS "YES" OR "NO." DID
r 9 THE WITNESS: YES, WE DID.
r 10
11
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. YOU DID NOT GET IN THE CAR, CORRECT?
r 12
13
A.
Q.
THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE RUNNING --
YES OR NO?
r 14
15
A.
MR. TROCHA.
THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE RUNNING OUR WAY,
r 16
17
THE COURT:
DID YOU GET INTO THE CAR?

SIR, THE ANSWER IS "YES" OR "NO,"
r 18 THE WITNESS: NO, OF COURSE NOT.
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
L 20 Q. INSTEAD YOU DECIDED TO RUN AWAY ON FOOT, YES OR
r 21
22
NO?
A. YES.
r 23
24
Q. YOU DID NOT GO BACK TO SEE IF CHRISTIAN
MARTINEZ WAS OKAY, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
EVERYBODY RAN.
YES OR NO?
[ 27 A. NO.
r 28 Q. YOU DID NOT GO BACK TO SEE IF SIRIA FORD WAS
r
2538
,
1
1
2
OKAY, YES OR NO?
A. NO.
,
'"'J
3 Q. YOU DID NOT GO BACK TO FIND OUT WHO GOT SHOT,

4 CORRECT? l
1
,
5 A. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF ANYBODY GOT SHOT.
6 Q. YOU DID NOT TRY TO SEE IF ANY WITNESSES WERE IN
7 SHOCK, YES OR NO?
8 A. WHY WOULD I DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
~
9 Q. YOU DID NOT DRIVE AROUND FOR THE NEXT SIX HOURS J
10 LOOKING AT HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOMS FOR GUNSHOT VICTIMS,
11 DID YOU? 1
12 A. I DIDN'T KNOW ANYBODY WAS SHOT, MR. TROCHA.
13 Q. IN FACT, ON THIS PARTICULAR MURDER, YOU CAN'T
l
14
15
TELL US WHO WAS THERE BEYOND YOUR TWO ALIBI WITNESSES,
CORRECT?
1
16
17
18
A.
Q.
I DON'T KNOW WHO WAS THERE.
THE ONLY PEOPLE YOU CAN TELL US WERE THERE ARE
CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ, SIRIA FORD AND DIANA BANUELOS,
,
l
19 CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT. 1
21 Q. THE SAME THREE PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLY HERE TO TELL
22
23
US THAT YOU WERE BY THAT CAR, CORRECT?
A. THEY CAME TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.
,.,
1
24 Q. YOU COULDN'T TELL US WHO WAS STANDING 50 FEET
25 AWAY FROM YOU WHILE AT THE CAR, CORRECT? l
26 A. BUT WHICH DIRECTION ARE YOU TALKING?
27 Q. MAYBE A PICTURE WILL HELP, MR. DOMINGUEZ. l
28 A. OKAY.
l
1 J
r 2539
r 1 Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 5, DO YOU SEE THAT
r 2
3
CAR IN THE BACKGROUND, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. YES, I DO.
r 4 Q. THAT'S THE CAR, ACCORDING TO YOU, THAT YOU
r 5
6
ARRIVED IN, CORRECT?
A. YES.
r 7
8
Q. YOU COULDN'T SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE PARK
AT THE LOCATION WHERE THOSE YELLOW PLACARDS WERE.
r 9 A. NO. IT WAS EXTREMELY DARK THAT NIGHT.
rt 10
11
Q.
A.
SO THE LIGHT WASN'T ON IN THAT PICTURE.
THE LIGHT WAS ON. THIS PICTURE -- THE PERSON
r 12
13
THAT TOOK THAT PICTURE USED THE SLOW WHATEVER-IT-WAS TO
MAKE IT BRIGHTER, MR. TROCHA. IT WAS DARK. IT WAS NOT
r 14
15
LIGHT LIKE THIS.
RIGHT THERE.
THAT LOOKS LIKE THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY
r 16 Q. PEOPLE'S 6 -- PEOPLE'S 8. THIS WOULD BE THE
17 VIEW FROM THAT CAR, CORRECT, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
r 18 A. LIKE I SAID, IT'S DARK, MR. TROCHA. IT'S NOT
19 LIGHT LIKE THIS.

r-
(
20 Q. YET YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE SOMEBODY PULL UP ON A
r 21
22
STREET THAT'S AT LEAST TWICE AS FAR AWAY FROM YOU,
MR. DOMINGUEZ, YES?
r 23
24
A.
DRIVING.
I SEEN THE CAR, YES. I COULDN'T SEE WHO WAS
r 25 Q. BUT YOU KNEW IT WAS DIANA BANUELOS, YES?
r 26
27
A. YOU COULD SEE THE STREET RIGHT FROM THERE.
THERE'S A STREETLIGHT RIGHT AT THE CORNER. I SEEN THE
r 28 CAR.
r
2540
1
1 Q. BUT YOU COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING GOING ON IN THAT
1
2 LOCATION OF THE PARK. l
3 A. YEAH. THERE WAS A BUNCH OF LITTLE KIDS RUNNING
4 AROUND RIGHT THERE, MR. TROCHA. l

5 Q. THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW.
1
6
7
8
A. NO, I DIDN'T WHO THEY WERE.
TO THEM OR TRY TO TALK TO ANYBODY.
SPECIFIC REASON, THAT'S IT.

I DIDN'T WALK UP
I WAS THERE FOR A ,

~
~
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T RECOGNIZE MOISES LOPEZ, THE PERSON J
10 YOU MET AT THE SCENE OF YOUR FRIEND'S MURDER THAT YOU
4
11 THEN RECONTACTED TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT THAT FRIEND'S J
12
13
MURDER, YES OR NO?
A. I MET HIM ONE TIME. NO.

1
14
15
Q. WHAT ABOUT CHUCK -- VICTOR RAMOS --
MR. DOMINGUEZ?
l
1
,
16 A. WHAT ABOUT HIM?
17 Q. YOU KNOW HIM, DON'T YOU?
18 A. I KNOW HIS FATHER. YES, I'VE SEEN HIM. I KNOW
19 HIM.
20 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 267, PHOTOGRAPH OF VICTOR 1

21 RAMOS, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
1
22
23
24
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. I'LL SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 267.
THAT'S VICTOR RAMOS, IS IT NOT?

,
J
25 A. APPEARS TO BE. THIS PICTURE IS KIND OF, I l

26 DON'T KNOW, BLURRY OR WHATEVER.
27 Q. IS IT VICTOR RAMOS? l
28 A. IT APPEARS TO BE. I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN
1
1
.I
r 2541
r 1 IF IT IS OR IF IT'S NOT, MR. TROCHA.
r 2 Q. DID YOU SEE VICTOR RAMOS THERE THAT NIGHT?
r
3 A. NO.
4 Q. YOU HAVE A FRIEND NAMED TOMAS LOPEZ, TOO,
r 5
6
CORRECT?
A. YES.
r: 7
8
Q.
A.
HIS NICKNAME IS YOGI, IS IT NOT?
YES.
r 9
10
(PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 268, PHOTOGRAPH OF TOMAS
LOPEZ, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
r 11 BY MR. TROCHA:
r 12
13
Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 268, THAT'S A PICTURE OF
TOMAS LOPEZ, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
YES.
TOMAS LOPEZ IS, WHAT, SIX-TWO? SIX-THREE?
r 16
17
A.
Q.
WEIGHS ABOUT ANYWHERE FROM 250 TO 300 POUNDS?
r 18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. HAS TATTOOS AROUND HIS NECK AND ON HIS HEAD?

r
f
20 A. YEAH.
r 21
22
Q.
A.
HE'S ONE OF YOUR BETTER FRIENDS, CORRECT?
I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR A LONG TIME, YES.
r 23
24
Q. YOU'VE KNOWN HIM ALMOST AS LONG AS A GUY NAMED
JOSEPH NIETO, CORRECT?
r 25
26
A.
Q.
NO.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN JOSEPH NIETO?
r 27 A. MAYBE 10 YEARS.
r 28 Ill
r
l
2542
,
l
1 (PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 269, PHOTOGRAPH OF JOSEPH
2 NIETO, WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 1
3 BY MR. TROCHA:
4 Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 269, THIS IS JOSEPH NIETO, l
5 IS IT NOT?
1
6
8
IS.
A.
Q.
THIS IS A BAD PICTURE. I CAN'T TELL WHO THIS
THAT'S JOSEPH NIETO, IS IT NOT?

,
9
10
11
A. IF YOU SAY IT IS, THEN I'LL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR
IT, MR. TROCHA.
Q. JOSEPH NIETO'S NICKNAME IS SPORTY, CORRECT?
,
1
_;
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DID YOU SEE SPORTY OR YOGI AT THE PARK?
1
14
15
A.
Q.
NO, I DIDN'T.
YOGI DRIVES A RED EL CAMINO, DOES HE NOT?
1
16 A. YES. 1
17 Q. YOU DIDN'T RECOGNIZE THE RED EL CAMINO WHEN IT
18 PULLED UP TO THE PARK? 1
19 A. I DIDN'T SEE IT PULL UP TO THE PARK.
20 Q. WELL, IF DIANA BANUELOS DROVE TO THE PARK, SHE 1
21 WOULD HAVE PASSED RIGHT BY HIS CAR, CORRECT?
l
22
23
24
EVIDENCE.
MR. SPEREDELOZZI:
THE COURT:
OBJECTION.
OVERRULED.
MISSTATES THE
YOU MAY ANSWER.

,
25 WOULD THAT BE TRUE, SIR? 1
26 THE WITNESS: NO, IT WOULDN'T BE TRUE.
27
28
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. DID HE ARRIVE LATER? ,
1
..
l
r 2543
r 1 A. HE MUST HAVE.
r 2 Q. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 42, THAT'S HIS CAR, THE

3 RED EL CAMINO, CORRECT?
[ 4 A. YES, IT IS.
r 5
6
Q.
A.
WHEN DID THAT CAR ARRIVE, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
AFTER MS. BANUELOS' CAR GOT THERE.
[ 7
8
Q. SO YOU DID SEE IT SHOW UP.
A. NO. I'M JUST ASSUMING. IT WASN'T THERE WHEN
r 9
10
SHE GOT THERE.
Q. WELL, IF WE GO FROM PEOPLE'S 41, WHICH IS

r 11 MOVING EAST ON FRANKLIN, TO PEOPLE'S 40 TO PEOPLE'S
r 12
13
39 -- THAT'S THE CAR YOU WERE ARGUING IN AND BEHIND WITH
MS. BANUELOS, CORRECT?
r 14
15
A.
Q.
CORRECT.
ARE YOU TELLING US THAT YOU COULDN'T SEE THE
r 16
17
EL CAMINO PULL UP TWO, THREE CAR LENGTHS BEHIND YOU?
A. NOT IF WE WERE IN THE CAR, MR. TROCHA, NO.
r 18 Q. WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND YOU
19 SAW TOMAS LOPEZ' CAR PARKED A FEW FEET BEHIND YOU?

[ 20 A. I WASN'T LOOKING AT THE CARS, MR. TROCHA. I'M
r 21
22
STILL ARGUING WITH THIS FEMALE.
ATTENTION TO THE CARS ON THE STREET.

I WAS NOT PAYING
r 23
24
Q. DURING THIS TIME, YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION TO
SOMEONE FIGHTING IN THE PARK.
r 25 A.
Q.
YES.
WHICH WAS THE SAME GENERAL DIRECTION WHERE THE
r
26
27 EL CAMINO WAS PARKED.
r 28 A. NO. IT'S IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
r
2544
Q. SO YOU DIDN ' T SEE ONE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS ' CAR
PARKED A FEW FEET AWAY FROM YOU , YES OR NO?
A. I DON ' T REMEMBER.
Q. ALSO AT THIS TIME OF THE SHOOTING , YOU HAVE NO
CONCERN FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE PARK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. I DON' T KNOW WHO IS IN THE PARK . WHY WOULD I?
Q. WELL , YOU TALKED ABOUT A FIGHT HAPPENING I N THE
9 A. I SAW WHAT APPEARED TO BE A FIGHT, YES .
10 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLI NG US ON MONDAY THAT IF
11 YOU SEE A PERSON WHO IS GETTING BEAT UP, MAYBE BY
12 MULTIPLE PEOPLE, YOU'RE GOING TO JUMP IN AND HELP THAT
13 PERSON . DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT, MR . DOMINGUEZ?
14 A. I SAID MY FRIEND -- IF MY FRIEND IS GETTING
15 BEAT UP BY MULTIPLE PEOPLE , YES.
16 Q. NO. YOU ALSO SAID YOU WOULD DO IT FOR A
17 STRANGER, DID YOU NOT , MR. DOMINGUEZ?
18 A. NO I WOULD NOT .
19 Q. YOU SAID YOU WOULD DO IT FOR ME, CORRECT,
20 MR. DOMINGUEZ?
21 A. IF ME AND YOU WERE OUT TOGETHER AND SOMEONE WAS
22 BEATING YOU UP, YES, MR. TROCHA , BUT --
23 Q. ARE WE FRIENDS , MR . DOMINGUEZ?

24 A. NO . I WAS JUST USING THAT AS AN EXAMPLE,
25 MR. TROCHA . YOU ' RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING TOTALLY
26 DIFFERENT , MR . TROCHA. I ' M TALKING ABOUT A FR I END OF
27 MINE WAS GETTING BEAT UP IN FRONT OF ME. OF COURSE I ' M

28 GOING TO HELP.
r 2545
r
r
1 I CAN'T TELL WHO'S FIGHTING UP ON THE HILL. I
2 CAN'T EVEN SEE WHO'S UP THERE, MR. TROCHA. THAT'S A
r 3
4
TOTALLY DIFFERENT
Q. YOU TOLD US ON MONDAY YOU WOULD HELP OUT
r 5
6
ANYBODY WHO IS GETTING BEAT UP BY MULTIPLE PEOPLE, YES
OR NO, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
[ 7 A. NO. THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

8 Q. SO YOU DRAW THE LINE WHEN A 15-YEAR-OLD BOY IS
r 9 GETTING BEAT UP BY MULTIPLE PEOPLE, MR. DOMINGUEZ; IS
r 10
11
THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A. HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW HE WAS A 15-YEAR-OLD
r 12
13
BOY GETTING BEAT UP, MR. TROCHA?
Q. WELL, YOU COULD SEE THAT SOMEBODY WAS GETTING
r 14
15
BEATEN UP, YES, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. I JUST COULD TELL THERE WAS A FIGHT. I WASN'T
r 16
17
STARING AT IT.
GOING ON.
I DIDN'T RUN UP THERE TO SEE WHAT WAS
r 18 Q. YOU COULD SEE MULTIPLE PEOPLE BEATING UP ON ONE
c 19
20
PERSON, MR. DOMINGUEZ, YES OR NO?
A. NO.
r 21
22
Q. AND IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO YOU THAT THAT PERSON WHO
WAS GETTING BEAT UP NEEDS MY HELP, YES OR NO?
r 23
24
A.
Q.
NO.
THIS PERSON WHO IS GETTING BEAT UP BY MULTIPLE
r 25 PEOPLE IN MY PARK I'M NOT GOING TO HELP OUT; IS THAT
r
26 WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
27 A. I DON'T OWN THAT PARK, MR. TROCHA. LIKE I TOLD
r 28 YOU, I'M NOT -- I DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS IN THERE. I
r
, J
2546
~
J
1 DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS OVER THERE. WHY WOULD I GET
2 INVOLVED IN A SITUATION THAT DOESN'T CONCERN ME? I 1

3 DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHO WAS FIGHTING. WHY WOULD I CARE?
4 Q. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS MOISES LOPEZ, l

5 THE SAME KID THAT HELPED YOU OUT IN THE MURDER OF LIL
6 CROOKS.
l
7
8
A.
MR. TROCHA.
YOU JUST SAID RIGHT NOW HE HELPED ME OUT,
WITHOUT HIM AND THAT OTHER KID, DOWNER, I

1
9 WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MOVE EDWIN. l
10 Q. AND YET YOU DIDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO HELP HIM
11 OUT WHEN HE'S GETTING BEAT UP BY MULTIPLE PEOPLE. IS 1

12 THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, MR. DOMINGUEZ?

1 J
14
15
ANSWERED.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT HAS BEEN.

'1
16
17
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. WHAT INVESTIGATION DID YOU CONDUCT INTO THIS

l
18 MURDER, MR. DOMINGUEZ? 1
19 A. YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU WHAT I HEARD?
20 Q. NO. DID YOU GO AROUND ASKING PEOPLE WHO SHOT 1
21 MOISES LOPEZ?
l
22
23
24
A.
Q.
YEAH.
DO YOU REMEMBER TALKING TO ONE OF YOUR
INVESTIGATORS BY THE NAME OF GREG ESTEBAN!?

,
25
26
A. YES.
l
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING HIM YOU DID ACTUALLY
27 SEE VICTOR RAMOS IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT? l
28 A. NO.
1
l
r 2547
r 1 Q. YOU DIDN'T TELL GREG ESTEBANI THAT VICTOR RAMOS
r 2 WAS GOING AROUND BEATING PEOPLE UP IN THE PARK THAT

3 NIGHT?
r 4 A. NO. I DIDN'T SEE THAT.
r
'.
5
6
Q. YOU DIDN'T TELL HIM THAT VICTOR RAMOS WAS
BEATING UP MOISES LOPEZ?
[ 7 A. I NEVER SEEN VICTOR RAMOS BEAT UP ANYBODY.
8 THAT NEVER CAME OUT OF MY MOUTH. AND IF VICTOR RAMOS
r 9
10
DID BEAT UP MOISES, WHY ISN'T HE ON TRIAL, MR. TROCHA?
Q. BECAUSE HE DIDN'T, MR. DOMINGUEZ.

r 11 MR. SPEREDELOZZI: OBJECTION.
12
r 13
THE COURT: BOTH THE QUESTION BY THE WITNESS
AND MR. TROCHA'S RESPONSE ARE STRICKEN. PLEASE
r 14
15
DISREGARD, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
BY MR. TROCHA:
c 16
17
Q. YOU DON'T RECALL TELLING GREG ESTEBANI THAT
VICTOR RAMOS JUMPED IN MOISES ON THE DAY OF THE CAUSE OF
r 18 ACTION, AND RAMOS IS THE SAME PERSON THAT ENDED UP IN
r 19
20
THE TRUNK OF THE AUTO THE DAY OF THE INCIDENT?
DIDN'T SAY THAT?

YOU
r 21
22
A.
Q.
NO.
YOU DIDN'T ALSO SAY THAT RAMOS, ON THE CAUSE OF
r 23
24
ACTION, WAS ALSO THERE THE ENTIRE DAY AND EVENING/NIGHT,
TRYING TO FIGHT EVERYBODY IN THE PARK?
r 25
26
A. THAT'S NEVER COME OUT OF MY MOUTH. I WASN'T
THERE THE WHOLE DAY, SO I WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS

r
r 27 DOING AT THE PARK. WHY WOULD I TALK ABOUT SOMETHING I
28 KNOW NOTHING ABOUT?

[
r
,
J
2548
~
J
1 Q. HOW ABOUT TOMAS LOPEZ, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
2 A. WHAT ABOUT HIM? 1

3 Q. WE HEARD FROM THE DNA EXPERT THAT OF ALL THE
4 PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS CASE, HE WAS ONLY ASKED TO TEST l

5
6
TOMAS LOPEZ'S DNA AGAINST THE T-SHIRT.
RIGHT?
YOU HEARD THAT,
l
7
8
A.
Q.
YEAH.
TOMAS LOPEZ IS A PRETTY GOOD FRIEND OF YOURS,
1
9 YES? l
10 A. TOMAS LOPEZ IS A FRIEND OF MINE.
11 Q. SO YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN IF HE WAS IN THE PARK 1
~
12 THAT NIGHT, YES?

13 A. I DIDN'T SEE HIM IN THE PARK THAT NIGHT. l
14
15
Q. YET THIS NAME WAS DRAWN OUT OF THIN AIR TO TEST
AGAINST A T-SHIRT.
1
l
17 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THAT'S A MATTER FOR
18 ARGUMENT. l
19 BY MR. TROCHA:
20 Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHO KILLED MOISES LOPEZ? 1
21 A. YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU WHAT I HEARD?
l
22
23
24
Q. NO.
FROM WHAT YOU SAW.
A.
I WANT TO KNOW WHO KILLED MOISES LOPEZ
I DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY DO IT.

, J
25 Q. BUT YOU WERE THERE, CORRECT? 1

26 A. I WASN'T RIGHT THERE, NO.
27 Q. YOU WERE ABLE TO GET INFORMATION ON A SIMILAR l
28 MURDER JUST HAPPENING TWO MONTHS BEFORE THIS, YES?
l
l
L 2549
[
1 A. YES. AND I COULD TELL YOU WHAT I HEARD ABOUT
r 2 THIS, BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT, MR. TROCHA.

3 Q. NO, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TELL US
r 4 RUMORS, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 5
6
A.
RIGHT?
BUT YOU WERE ALLOWED TO TELL THESE JURORS,
[ 7 THE COURT: OKAY. ENOUGH. ENOUGH. STRICKEN.

8 LAST COMMENT STRICKEN. MR. TROCHA'S STATEMENT ABOUT
r 9
10
RUMORS IS STRICKEN.
NEXT QUESTION, PLEASE.
r 11
12
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHO BEAT UP MOISES LOPEZ?
r 13 A. I CAN TELL YOU WHAT I HEARD. I CAN'T TELL YOU
r 14
15
FROM SEEING ANYTHING THAT NIGHT.
Q. YOU WERE THERE THAT NIGHT, MR. DOMINGUEZ.
r 16
17 ANSWERED.
r 18 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. ARGUMENTATIVE.
r 19
20
BY MR. TROCHA:
Q. MR. DOMINGUEZ, WHO WAS WEARING GLOVES THAT
r 21
22
NIGHT?
A. I CAN'T TELL YOU.
r 23
24
Q.
A.
YOU WERE, WEREN'T YOU?
NO, I WAS NOT.
r 25 Q. WASN'T IT KIND OF COLD?

r 26
27
28
Q. BECAUSE YOU WORE GLOVES IN 2004 WHEN IT WAS
KIND OF COLD, RIGHT?
[
r
2550
l
~
l
1 A. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THIS NIGHT,
2 MR. TROCHA? l
3 Q. YOU WORE GLOVES IN 1996. WHY NOW IN '96?
4 A. '96, MR. TROCHA? I WAS 18 AT THE TIME, l

5
6
MR. TROCHA.
Q.
I CAN'T RECALL WHAT I DID IN 1996.
WASN'T IT TO HIDE YOUR FINGERPRINTS FROM THE

l
7
8
STOLEN CAR, MR. DOMINGUEZ?
A. POSSIBLY. I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IF I HAD

1
9 GLOVES ON. l
10 Q. SO TO HIDE YOUR IDENTITY IS WHY YOU WORE GLOVES
11 IN '96. 1
12 A. I CAN'T TELL YOU, NO. I DON'T KNOW.
1
13
14
15
Q. BUT YOU'RE TELLING US ON THIS MURDER YOU
WEREN'T WEARING GLOVES WHEN YOU WERE BEATING MOISES
LOPEZ.

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r

r THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE

r FOR THE PLAINTIFF KAMALA D. HARRIS

r SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92101

r IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO

r DEPARTMENT 48 HON. CHARLES G. ROGERS, JUDGE

r THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE

r 330 WEST BROADWAY, SUITE 750

r FOR THE DEFENDANT: HULLINGER & SPEREDELOZZI

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 248 6

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 337 7

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 407 7

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 565 8

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 566 8

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 582 8

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 600 8

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 683 8

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 693 8

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 708 8

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 796 9

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r MARY JANE FLOWERS

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 877 9

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 909 9

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1233 11

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA

r REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TROCHA 1365 13

r SIMON LOPEZ - PEOPLE'S WITNESS

r CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SPEREDELOZZI 1371 13

r OTHON MENA, M.D. - PEOPLE'S WITNESS