Browder's First Deposition - April 15th, 2015

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1
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4 --------------------------------X
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
5
Plaintiff,
6
VS. Case No. 1:13-CV-06326(TPG)
7 ECF CASE
PREVEZON HOLDINGS LTD.,
8 et al.,
9 Defendants.
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10
11
12
13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
14 OF
15 WILLIAM F. BROWDER
16 Wednesday, April 15, 2015
17 30 Rockefeller Plaza
18 New York, New York
19
20
21 Reported by:
AYLETTE GONZALEZ, RPR, CLR, CCR
22 JOB NO. 91742
23
24
25
TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

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1 1
2 DATE: April 15, 2015 2 A P P E A R A N C E S:
3 TIME: 9:30 a.m. 3
4 4 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
5 5 Counsel for Plaintiff
6 Videotaped Deposition of WILLIAM F. 6 One St. Andrew's Plaza
7 BROWDER, held at the offices of BAKER BOTTS, 7 New York, New York 10007
8 LLP, 30 Rockefeller Plaza, New York, New 8 BY: PAUL MONTELEONI, ESQ.
9 York 10112, pursuant to NOTICE, before 9 BY: ANDREW ADAMS, ESQ.
10 AYLETTE GONZALEZ, a Registered Professional 10
11 Reporter, Certified LiveNote Reporter, 11
12 Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public 12
13 of the States of New York and New Jersey. 13 BAKER & HOSTETLER
14 14 Counsel for Defendants
15 15 1050 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
16 16 Washington, District of Columbia 20036
17 17 BY: MARK CYMROT, ESQ.
18 18 BY: PAUL LEVINE, ESQ.
19 19 BY: MORITZ ABRAMOVITZ, ESQ.
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25 ///
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1 1
2 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued) 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
3 3 Tape No. 1 for the videotaped
4 BAKER BOTTS 4 deposition of William Browder in the
5 Counsel for Defendants 5 matter of United States of America vs.
6 30 Rockefeller Plaza 6 Prevezon Holdings Ltd., et al.
7 New York, New York 10112 7 We are now going on the record.
8 BY: SETH TAUBE, ESQ. 8 The time is 9:35 a.m.
9 BY: JOYCE YOUNG, ESQ. 9 Will counsel please state their
10 10 appearances for the record.
11 11 MR. KIM: This is Michael Kim and
12 12 Lindsay Weiss of Kobre & Kim for the
13 KOBRE & KIM 13 witness, William Browder.
14 Counsel for the Witness 14 MR. MONTELEONI: Paul Monteleoni
15 800 Third Avenue 15 and Andrew Adams for the Southern
16 New York, New York 10022 16 District of New York U.S. Attorney's
17 BY: MICHAEL KIM, ESQ. 17 Office.
18 BY: LINDSEY WEISS, ESQ. 18 MR. TAUBE: Seth Taube and
19 19 Joyce Young, Baker Botts, for
20 20 Defendants.
21 21 MR. CYMROT: Mark Cymrot and
22 ALSO PRESENT: 22 Paul Levine for Defendants.
23 LEM LATTIMER, Videographer 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the Court
24 24 Reporter please swear the witness in.
25 25 ********************
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 6 Page 7
1 WILLIAM F. BROWDER (4/15/15) 1 WILLIAM F. BROWDER (4/15/15)
2 W I L L I A M F. B R O W D E R, 2 that.
3 called as a witness, having been 3 So this is Michael Kim. So we
4 first duly sworn by a Notary Public 4 still do not have a Confidentiality
5 of the State of New York, was 5 Agreement or Order from the court.
6 examined and testified as follows: 6 I'm not faulting anybody, that's just
7 EXAMINATION BY 7 objectively the situation we're in.
8 MR. CYMROT: 8 It would be our preference to
9 Q. Mr. Browder, my name is 9 obviously have this deposition only
10 Mark Cymrot. I represent the Defendants in 10 when covered by a court ordered
11 this action. 11 Confidentiality Order. But given that
12 You're here pursuant to Subpoena? 12 we're under Subpoena, we will proceed
13 A. I'm sorry, is that a question? 13 in the manner that -- that Plaintiff
14 Q. Yes. Are you here pursuant to a 14 wishes.
15 Subpoena? 15 And as I understand it, and I
16 A. Yes. 16 discussed this with Mr. Cymrot before
17 Q. And a court order? 17 the deposition began, there are other
18 A. I think so. 18 people listening in who, I believe,
19 Q. Let me show you what I'll mark as 19 has identified three names, and I'll
20 Browder Exhibit 1. 20 ask him to just state what his
21 MR. KIM: Sorry, Mark, can I do 21 understanding is for the record.
22 the confidentiality? 22 We -- we, on Mr. Browder's part, were
23 MR. CYMROT: Oh, I'm sorry, yes, I 23 made to understand that certain client
24 skipped that. Yes. 24 representatives would be attending.
25 MR. KIM: All right. Sorry about 25 I did not understand the word
Page 8 Page 9
2 "attending" to mean unnamed persons or 2 say that we've gotten this far in our
3 persons I can't verify who's listening 3 discussions as the point where the
4 in or listening in. That's fine. 4 judge has before him on the Government
5 Given we're under Subpoena, we're 5 confidentiality proposal the same
6 willing to proceed based on the 6 issues, so they'll be resolved when he
7 understanding that the contents of 7 resolves them.
8 this Subpoena are covered by the same 8 In terms of people looking in,
9 arrangements that was in the 9 there are other attorneys and others
10 March 20th letter from us, which was 10 associated with our law firm;
11 subsequently agreed to by Defendants, 11 Gabriella Volshteyn as client
12 with the exception that the client 12 representative, Nataliya Vaselnitskaya
13 representatives who will be identified 13 and Denis Katsyv, the client
14 as listening in would be allowed to 14 representatives. And those are the
15 access this deposition on the 15 ones I'm aware of.
16 undertaking by all that the contents 16 But anybody looking in will be
17 of the deposition will not be passed 17 subject to the same restrictions, that
18 on to any other persons pending 18 it cannot be used for any other
19 further order of the Court. 19 purpose other than this lawsuit as we
20 And I think after the deposition 20 set forth in that letter.
21 we understand we'll try to get the 21 MR. KIM: Just one question. Are
22 Confidentiality Agreement finalized 22 you able to verify who's actually
23 and submitted to Judge Griesa as soon 23 listening and who's not to a degree of
24 as we're able to. 24 certainty.
25 MR. CYMROT: Right. I would just 25 MR. CYMROT: I am not sitting
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
Page 10 Page 11
2 here, no. 2 tell us what that letter is?
3 MR. KIM: Okay. So we object to 3 A. Can I correct a statement that you
4 proceeding, but given we're under 4 made, is that --
5 Subpoena, we'll just note the 5 Q. I guess you can.
6 objection and proceed as we just 6 A. This is not a letter that I signed.
7 discussed. So thank you. Sorry to 7 Q. Who signed it?
8 interrupt. Proceed. 8 A. This was signed by Brown Rudnick,
9 MR. CYMROT: Okay. Exhibit 1. 9 LLP.
10 All right. So I'm marking for 10 Q. Do you recognize that as a letter
11 identification as Browder Exhibit 1 a 11 you authorized?
12 letter dated December 4, 2012 to the 12 A. This was a letter that I'd
13 New York County District Attorney's 13 authorized, yes, on -- yeah.
14 office, I believe Mr. Browder signed 14 Q. Okay.
15 this, and attachments. 15 MR. CYMROT: And let me mark as
16 Let's get the Court Reporter to 16 Exhibit 2 the Verified Claimant, the
17 initial it, I'm sorry. 17 original. The original.
18 Why don't you use this copy which 18 BY MR. CYMROT:
19 has tabs. 19 Q. So how did -- while we're waiting
20 (Browder Exhibit 1, document Bates 20 for that, how did that letter come about,
21 stamped PREV_000003127_001 through 21 Mr. Browder?
22 '166 was marked for identification, as 22 A. This letter came about based on
23 of this date.) 23 a -- an investigation that we did into the
24 BY MR. CYMROT: 24 proceeds of the Magnitsky crime.
25 Q. All right. Mr. Browder, can you 25 Q. And who is "we"?
Page 12 Page 13
2 A. My -- my legal team and myself. 2 Adam Kaufmann, who was head of investigations
3 Q. And who's your legal team or who 3 division of the New York District Attorney's
4 was your legal team at the time? 4 office. I walked it into his office on the
5 A. My legal team started out with 5 4th of December 2012 or maybe possibly one or
6 John Moscow from BakerHostetler and included 6 two days later, and then they took up the
7 Neil Micklethwaite from Brown Rudnick, 7 case.
8 Jonathan Weiner from APCO, John Ashcroft from 8 Q. John Moscow wasn't representing you
9 Ashcroft Associates, various Russian lawyers. 9 at this time?
10 Q. Brown Rudnick? 10 A. No, he wasn't, but he did introduce
11 A. Brown Rudnick; Neil Micklethwaite I 11 me to Adam Kaufmann earlier.
12 mentioned. 12 Q. When was that?
13 Q. Okay. And who at Hermitage was 13 A. I can't recall exactly, but one or
14 working on this? 14 two -- I met Adam Kaufmann through John Moscow
15 A. Pretty much Vadim Kleiner, 15 at the Cambridge crime conference in
16 Ivan Cherkasov. 16 Cambridge, England.
17 Q. And yourself? 17 Q. And when was that?
18 A. And my- -- well, yeah. 18 A. I can't recall exactly.
19 Q. You were working on it, right? 19 Q. And John Moscow represented you
20 A. Yeah. 20 for, what, six months in 2007 and '8, was it?
21 Q. So you sent this letter to the U.S. 21 A. And sort of informally afterwards,
22 Attorney, and what happened next, or it 22 after we -- after he got called on to another
23 actually went to the State District Attorney, 23 case and didn't have time for us.
24 correct? 24 Q. Well, all right, we don't need to
25 A. So John Moscow introduced me to 25 get into the subject, but isn't it true that
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
Page 14 Page 15
2 you discharged John Moscow and BakerHostetler? 2 which year it was.
3 A. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't -- no. 3 Q. 2012, 2011?
4 Q. You stopped relying upon 4 A. I'd have to --
5 BakerHostetler's advice, correct? 5 Q. No idea?
6 A. BakerHostetler -- John Moscow 6 A. I would have to look at the -- at
7 stopped returning our phone calls because he 7 the Cambridge crime conference schedule and
8 got busy on another case. 8 see, see when he was there and Adam Kaufmann
9 Q. And you stopped relying upon his 9 was there.
10 advice? 10 Q. So at the time of this letter,
11 A. No, not true. 11 December 4, 2012, you walked into the New York
12 Q. Never, to this day? 12 County District Attorney's office; is that
13 A. Well, when he became adverse to us 13 what I understand?
14 in this case, obviously his advice was no 14 A. That's correct.
15 longer objective. 15 Q. With whom?
16 Q. I see. And when was the last time 16 A. On my own.
17 before -- what would it be, December, 17 Q. I see. And you presented this
18 November of 2013 that you spoke to 18 letter?
19 John Moscow? 19 A. Correct.
20 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. And what was that -- what happened
21 Q. Years before that? 21 after that?
22 A. I think it was at the Cambridge 22 A. At that point they accepted the
23 crime conference that I last spoke to him. 23 letter.
24 Q. Which was when? 24 Q. And was there a conversation?
25 A. I -- I don't remember which -- 25 A. And then perhaps a few weeks later
Page 16 Page 17
2 I was informed that the -- they were taking up 2 Q. After the first conversation, did
3 the case. 3 you have additional conversations with the
4 Q. In the New York County District 4 investigator?
5 Attorney's office? 5 A. I did.
6 A. That's correct. 6 Q. How many?
7 Q. All right. And what happened in 7 A. I can't recall.
8 terms of the case after that? 8 Q. Did you record them?
9 A. They -- I'm trying -- I can't 9 A. No.
10 remember the name of the investigator -- 10 Q. Did you take notes?
11 started to do some work on it and then 11 A. No.
12 eventually decided that it was a real case. 12 Q. So what were they about?
13 Q. And when did it get to the U.S. 13 A. Just status reports.
14 Attorney's Office? 14 Q. What did he tell you about the
15 A. After that. 15 status?
16 Q. When after that? 16 A. They were working on it.
17 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Nothing more?
18 Q. How much work was done in the 18 A. That it was a real case.
19 D.A.'s office in New York? 19 Q. How long did the conversations
20 A. I don't work in the D.A.'s office. 20 last?
21 Q. How much work did they tell you 21 A. I don't recall.
22 they did? 22 Q. No idea; hour, two hours, three
23 A. They don't -- I'm not a member of 23 hours?
24 their staff, they don't -- they don't tell me 24 A. No.
25 what they're doing or not doing. 25 Q. Less than that?
5 (Pages 14 to 17)
Page 18 Page 19
2 A. Less than that. 2 Q. Nine months?
3 Q. Fifteen minutes? 3 A. Perhaps.
4 A. Perhaps. I don't recall. 4 Q. So it was about three months in the
5 Q. How many of these conversations did 5 D.A.'s office and then nine months in the U.S.
6 you have? 6 Attorney's Office?
7 A. I don't remember exactly. 7 A. I don't know the timing.
8 Q. All right. When did it go to the 8 Q. All right. Who did you talk to in
9 U.S. Attorney's Office, approximately? 9 the U.S. Attorney's Office?
10 A. After the -- sometime after we 10 A. I spoke to Sharon Levin,
11 submitted this, but I -- but I can't remember 11 Paul Monteleoni.
12 the dates. 12 Q. Did you speak to Todd Hyman, the
13 Q. I see. How long before it was 13 investigator?
14 filed in federal court? 14 A. He might have been present, but my
15 A. It was filed in federal court I 15 first contact was with Sharon Levin.
16 think a year later or some- -- maybe in the 16 Q. All right. And what were your
17 fall of 2013. 17 conversations with Sharon Levin?
18 Q. It was filed in, I believe, 18 A. That they had taken over the case
19 November or December of 2013, so it's about a 19 from the New York D.A.'s office.
20 year later; so how long before the Complaint 20 Q. Anything else?
21 was filed did you first have your conversation 21 A. That they were proceeding with the
22 with the U.S. Attorney's Office? 22 case.
23 A. Quite a bit. 23 Q. Did they tell you that they were
24 Q. Months? 24 investigating?
25 A. Yes. 25 A. They weren't sharing with me their
Page 20 Page 21
2 internal conversations. 2 Q. Did they give you cards?
3 Q. Did they ask you for more 3 A. I don't remember.
4 information? 4 Q. How many meetings between the first
5 A. Not at that meeting. 5 meeting and the filing of the Complaint did
6 Q. The first meeting? 6 you have with the U.S. Attorney's Office?
7 A. At the first meeting they just -- 7 A. I can't say for certain, but I
8 it was just a very simple meeting. 8 think there was maybe one more in-person
9 Q. So you were there alone? 9 meeting.
10 A. I don't remember if anyone was 10 Q. Other people from Hermitage or your
11 there with me or not. 11 lawyers meet with the U.S. Attorney's Office
12 Q. I see. And there were three people 12 before the case was filed?
13 on the side of the United States? 13 A. No.
14 A. There were more than three people, 14 Q. So it was just you?
15 but I don't know who else was there. 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I see. Did there come a time when 16 Q. Did there come a time when they
17 they -- 17 asked you for more information other than
18 A. Actually let me correct that. 18 what's in this letter?
19 Somebody from the New York D.A.'s office was 19 A. Yeah.
20 there as well. 20 Q. When was that?
21 Q. Okay. And who was that? 21 A. Spring or summer of 2013, I can't
22 A. That -- I don't remember the name 22 remember exactly.
23 of the person. 23 Q. What did they ask you?
24 Q. Investigator or a lawyer? 24 A. They asked -- well, they didn't --
25 A. I don't know. 25 didn't ask me personally; they asked people on
6 (Pages 18 to 21)
Page 22 Page 23
2 my team for more information. 2 A. Subpoena is to me.
3 Q. Who did they ask? 3 Q. Are you supervising the production
4 A. Vadim Kleiner. 4 of the documents?
5 Q. How did they get to meet people on 5 A. I've got a whole team of people
6 your team if they weren't at the meetings? 6 who's working on that, and they report to me
7 A. I maybe introduced them on the 7 from time to time.
8 phone, I don't re- -- I don't recall. 8 Q. I see. And have they reported to
9 Q. So they asked Mr. Kleiner for more 9 you that they provided us with files that you
10 information? 10 gave the U.S. Attorney's Office?
11 A. Yes. 11 A. They've reported to me lots of
12 Q. What more information? 12 stuff, but I -- you know, I don't know the
13 A. I wasn't part of those 13 details.
14 conversations. 14 Q. I see. So you have no idea what
15 Q. Did their files at Hermitage about 15 you gave the U.S. Attorney's Office --
16 what was given the U.S. Attorney's Office? 16 Hermitage gave the U.S. Attorney's Office in
17 A. Surely there are files. 17 response to their request; is that right?
18 Q. But you haven't given them to us in 18 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
19 response to the Subpoena; is that right? 19 MR. CYMROT: Yeah, I'll restate
20 A. I don't know. 20 it.
21 Q. Who's responsible for that? 21 Q. You have no idea what Mr. Kleiner
22 A. There's a whole team of people 22 gave to the U.S. Attorney's Office in response
23 responsible for that. 23 to their request; is that correct?
24 Q. Well, you're ultimately responsible 24 A. That's correct.
25 for your Subpoena to you, isn't it? 25 Q. And he didn't tell you at the time?
Page 24 Page 25
2 A. He told me he was in conversations, 2 everything in the original Complaint was
3 but he didn't tell me specifically what he was 3 accurate?
4 providing. 4 A. It seemed to me that it was
5 Q. Did he tell you what the substance 5 accurate. I should point out that some --
6 of the conversations was? 6 there -- there are parts of the Complaint that
7 A. Just backing up different parts of 7 I wasn't familiar with that I wouldn't -- not
8 the Complaint. 8 know about.
9 Q. What parts of the Complaint? 9 Q. But the parts that you were
10 A. I don't know. 10 familiar with, as far as you're concerned is
11 Q. Did you see a draft of the 11 accurate?
12 Complaint before it was filed? 12 A. The parts I was familiar with
13 A. I think we might have, but I can't 13 are -- I was thinking is accurate.
14 remember for sure. 14 Q. For instance, Mr. Magnitsky is an
15 Q. Did you tell the U.S. Attorney's 15 attorney; you think that's accurate?
16 Office that the allegations in the Complaint 16 A. He was my attorney.
17 were accurate as far as you knew? 17 Q. He was your attorney?
18 A. I was never asked or never told. 18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you ever see anything that you 19 Q. Acting as --
20 saw in -- you've read the Complaint, correct? 20 A. Acting in court representing me.
21 A. I have. 21 Q. I see. And he had a law degree in
22 Q. And did you see anything that -- 22 Russia?
23 that you felt was inaccurate? 23 A. I'm not aware that he did.
24 A. No. 24 Q. I see. And -- and he had -- he
25 Q. So as far as you're concerned, 25 went to law school?
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 26 Page 27
2 A. No. 2 information that you and Mr. Kleiner gave to
3 Q. He didn't go to law school, he 3 the U.S. attorney?
4 didn't have a law degree, but he was your 4 A. I don't work in the U.S. Attorney's
5 lawyer? 5 Office.
6 A. And he represented me in court. 6 Q. Well, you're aware that Mr. Hyman
7 Q. I see. 7 says that's the investigation that was done,
8 A. I should say represented Hermitage 8 took documents from your company, talked to
9 Fund Companies in court. 9 you and Mr. Kleiner, so this case arises from
10 Q. Okay. And he did other work; he 10 your information; that's news to you?
11 gave you advice on taxes? 11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 A. Correct. 12 Q. You didn't understand when the
13 Q. And he was given a power of 13 Complaint was being filed that it was based
14 attorney to do certain things for certain of 14 upon information that you and Mr. Kleiner
15 your companies, correct? 15 provided to the U.S. Attorney's Office?
16 A. I believe so. 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. So he acted not just as 17 Q. You understood that?
18 an attorney, he acted in other capacities? 18 A. Yeah.
19 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 19 Q. All right. Let me show you the
20 Q. Do you know who drafted the 20 Complaint we're talking about that I'll mark
21 Complaint? 21 as Browder Exhibit 2. It's a Verified
22 A. I would imagine that the U.S. 22 Complaint. It was filed on
23 attorney drafted the Complaint. 23 September 10, 2013.
24 Q. And you had no idea what 24 (Browder Exhibit 2, Verified
25 investigation the U.S. attorney did beyond the 25 Complaint, Filed on 9/10/13 was marked
Page 28 Page 29
2 for identification, as of this date.) 2 Q. Going back to Exhibit 1, which is
3 BY MR. CYMROT: 3 the letter to the D.A.'s office, all right?
4 Q. So Exhibit 2 is the Complaint we've 4 If you take a look at Tab 8.
5 been talking about, correct? 5 A. Tab A?
6 A. This? 6 Q. Eight.
7 Q. Yes. 7 A. Eight.
8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell us what these
9 Q. And that's the Complaint that you 9 documents are, the cover says "Bank
10 read and saw nothing inaccurate in it; is that 10 Transactions"?
11 right? 11 A. Yeah.
12 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 12 Q. By the way, if you find some
13 Q. You could answer. 13 illegible, that's because that's the way it
14 A. Sorry? 14 was produced to us.
15 MR. KIM: When I say objection to 15 So let's start with '3128096. Can
16 form, that doesn't mean don't answer; 16 you tell me what that is?
17 it's just a legal objection I'm 17 A. Where is this?
18 stating to the form of the question. 18 Q. It's the first document. If you
19 THE WITNESS: Right. 19 look at the lower right-hand corner, it has
20 A. If -- if we go back to what I said 20 numbers.
21 before, the parts of the Complaint that I'm 21 A. I don't know.
22 familiar with are accurate. 22 Q. Well, who put these documents
23 Q. And we're talking about that 23 together?
24 Complaint, Exhibit 2, right? 24 A. My team.
25 A. Correct. 25 Q. Who on your team?
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 30 Page 31
2 A. My lawyers, Vadim Kleiner. 2 Q. And where are they, in London?
3 Q. And which lawyers? 3 A. Yep.
4 A. My -- I've got a team of Russian 4 Q. Okay. So --
5 lawyers. I think Neil nickel weight was 5 A. I should say working in Hermitage
6 involved, his people on his team. 6 or external counsel from Russia.
7 Q. Okay. So you have no idea what 7 Q. Right. So you have no idea what
8 this is, it says "Refund decision"; you have 8 this is?
9 no idea what it is? 9 A. No.
10 A. No. 10 Q. Is it an official Russian document?
11 Q. And page '97, '097, "Refund 11 A. I don't know.
12 decision," you have no idea what that is? 12 Q. Do you know how you obtained it?
13 A. No. 13 A. No.
14 Q. '98, '99, going all the way through 14 Q. No idea?
15 '102, you have no idea what they are? 15 A. No.
16 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know whether it's fake?
17 Q. So when it comes to a document 17 A. I would assume it's real.
18 that's in Russian -- do you read Russian? 18 Q. But you have any -- any idea
19 A. No. 19 whether it's fake?
20 Q. Who do you rely upon if the 20 A. I don't think my team would have
21 translation is in Russian? 21 put together fake documents.
22 A. I have a team of people who are 22 Q. But you don't know?
23 Russian nationals. 23 A. I trust my team to put together
24 Q. Working in Hermitage? 24 real documents.
25 A. Yep. 25 Q. Do you know where they got them?
Page 32 Page 33
2 A. No. 2 Q. How did he get them?
3 Q. Do you know whether they stole 3 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
4 them? 4 Q. How did he get them?
5 A. I don't think my team -- no. No, 5 MR. MONTELEONI: Could I have a
6 they didn't steal them. 6 moment to discuss -- discuss with
7 Q. Do you know whether they bribed 7 counsel whether or not there's a
8 somebody to get them? 8 privilege objection?
9 A. They didn't bribe anybody to get 9 MR. CYMROT: On whose behalf.
10 them. 10 MR. MONTELEONI: On behalf of the
11 MR. KIM: Sorry. Objection to 11 U.S.
12 form. What's the "them" we're talking 12 MR. KIM: All right. I think we
13 about. 13 should step out because I'm wearing a
14 MR. CYMROT: '103, '104, 105 are 14 microphone.
15 examples. 15 MR. CYMROT: And you're keeping
16 Q. Do you have any idea? 16 track of the time, please.
17 A. '104; nobody bribed anybody, we 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
18 haven't bribed anybody. 18 10:01 a.m. We are coming off the
19 Q. Well, Mr. Kleiner says he has 19 record.
20 contacts within Moscow -- this is in your 20 (Whereupon, an off-the-record
21 books, he has contacts within Moscow and then 21 discussion was held.)
22 he shows up with some documents, right? 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
23 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 23 10:03 a.m. We are back on the record.
24 Q. Central Bank documents. 24 MR. KIM: Okay. So apologies for
25 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 25 the break. Just on certain topics we
9 (Pages 30 to 33)
Page 34 Page 35
2 want to be prudent and just check if 2 A. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know the
3 any party had a privilege objection. 3 answer to that question.
4 We understand that there is not, so 4 Q. Would it concern you if it were
5 you can proceed. 5 legal?
6 MR. CYMROT: Is that right. 6 A. We try to obey the law in all
7 MR. MONTELEONI: That's correct. 7 situations.
8 BY MR. CYMROT: 8 Q. Would it concern you if it weren't
9 Q. Okay. So the question is, where 9 legal?
10 did Mr. Kleiner get, for instance, Documents 10 A. Would it -- would it -- I'm sorry?
11 '104 and '105? 11 Q. Would it concern you if it weren't
12 A. I don't know. 12 legal to have, for instance, the documents
13 Q. Did he tell you at the time? 13 that are on pages '104 and '105?
14 A. No. 14 A. Would it concern me? I don't
15 Q. Was there a reason he wouldn't tell 15 understand. What are you saying?
16 you at the time? 16 Q. Would it bother you? Would you --
17 A. He has lots of sources. I don't 17 bother you if you had documents that were
18 ask him. 18 illegal to have under Russian law?
19 Q. He has lots of sources in Moscow 19 A. Sure.
20 that give him information? 20 Q. It would bother you?
21 A. Correct. 21 A. Um-hum.
22 Q. Is it legal under Russian law for 22 Q. You wouldn't pass that along to the
23 him to have, for instance, the information on 23 United States then?
24 pages '104 and '105? 24 A. If I was aware that it was
25 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 25 violating Russian law I wouldn't.
Page 36 Page 37
2 Q. But you didn't ask Mr. Kleiner? 2 A. I didn't check if it was legal.
3 A. No. 3 Q. All right. Let's go to page '111
4 Q. So you were sort of closing your 4 of the same exhibit.
5 eyes to where he got the information; is that 5 What is this document?
6 what you're saying? 6 A. I don't know.
7 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 7 Q. You have no idea?
8 A. No. 8 A. No.
9 Q. So then why didn't you ask him? 9 Q. You gave it to the U.S. attorney?
10 A. I didn't. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You gave -- you gave this 11 Q. Did you explain it to the U.S.
12 information and similar information to law 12 attorney?
13 enforcement authorities in Switzerland, in 13 A. No.
14 Latvia, in Russia and other locations and you 14 Q. What did you tell the U.S. attorney
15 didn't check to see whether you had obtained 15 about this document?
16 the information legally -- 16 A. Nothing.
17 A. No. 17 Q. Just delivered the letter and told
18 Q. -- is that your testimony? 18 them nothing?
19 A. No. 19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Is that a yes, I didn't hear you? 20 Q. And you have no idea who created
21 MR. KIM: Objection to form of the 21 this document?
22 question. 22 A. No.
23 A. Could you ask the question again? 23 Q. Now these documents that follow,
24 Q. You didn't check whether it was 24 this document and the ones that follow
25 legal, correct? 25 supposedly traced money from the Russian
10 (Pages 34 to 37)
Page 38 Page 39
2 Treasury into various accounts; you know that, 2 Q. So you yourself have no idea
3 right? 3 whether it's accurate that money was traced?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. I relied on the professionalism of
5 Q. You don't know how the tracing was 5 my team who had been very professional over a
6 done? 6 long period of time in tracing money.
7 A. No. 7 Q. They've "been very professional
8 Q. Who did it? 8 over a long period of time in tracing money."
9 A. Vadim Kleiner and the team of 9 Before 2007?
10 lawyers that worked with him. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And they never told you how they 11 Q. What kind of money tracing did they
12 did it? 12 do before 2007?
13 A. No. 13 A. My firm was a shareholder activist
14 Q. And they never told what you this 14 in Russia, and so we were looking at
15 document was? 15 situations involving fraud, big Russian
16 A. No. 16 companies we invested in, Gazprom, et cetera.
17 Q. And they never told you how this 17 And so the team that I worked with were
18 document works? 18 involved in those investigations, those
19 A. No. 19 tracings and various actions after those, that
20 Q. Did they tell you what these 20 information was gathered.
21 account numbers are, say, in the fourth column 21 Q. You do know it would be illegal in
22 to the left, from the left? 22 Russia for you to be in possession of bank
23 A. No. 23 account information for accounts other than
24 Q. No idea? 24 your own?
25 A. No idea. 25 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
Page 40 Page 41
2 Q. Do you know that? 2 information's not open to the public.
3 A. No, I didn't know that. 3 Q. You have no idea whether it's a
4 Q. You have no idea that bank 4 legal practice or based upon a law or not?
5 information was secret? 5 A. I'm not a lawyer.
6 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 6 Q. So you have no idea about any law?
7 A. I had no idea. 7 A. I've got ideas about certain laws.
8 Q. So anybody can go to Hermitage's 8 Q. And whether your information, your
9 bank in Russia and ask for copies of the 9 bank information is secret within Russia, you
10 account statements? 10 have no idea about that law?
11 A. I'm sorry? 11 A. I don't know which countries have
12 Q. Did you believe that anybody off 12 bank secrecy and which ones don't.
13 the street could walk into your bank in 13 Q. So as far as you knew, that anybody
14 Russia, say I want the bank statements for 14 could walk up to a bank in Russia and get
15 Hermitage? 15 account information?
16 A. What, is there a question? 16 A. No.
17 Q. Yes. 17 Q. So then how did Mr. Kleiner and
18 A. What's the question? 18 your team get what purports to be or what has
19 Q. Do you believe that's true? 19 been represented to us to be bank information
20 A. No. 20 on, for instance, page '111 of Exhibit 1?
21 Q. So there must be some law that says 21 A. I don't know.
22 it's not true, right, that bank information is 22 Q. And you have no idea whether it's
23 not open to the public? 23 legal or not?
24 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 24 A. I have no idea.
25 A. I guess it's a practice that bank 25 Q. Do you know whether this document
11 (Pages 38 to 41)
Page 42 Page 43
2 was created by a bank? 2 Q. "Connect the dots."
3 A. I don't know. 3 Does it take any amount of
4 Q. Was it created by somebody on your 4 expertise to connect the dots?
5 team? 5 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
6 A. I don't know. 6 A. I think it takes analysis to
7 Q. Do you know what information it was 7 connect the dots.
8 based upon? 8 Q. What's Mr. Kleiner's education?
9 A. I don't know. 9 A. Ph.D.
10 Q. Do you know whether they had 10 Q. In what?
11 account statements? 11 A. Economics.
12 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Is he the one who connected the
13 Q. Do you know whether they knew the 13 dots?
14 daily balance in those accounts that are 14 A. He and a team of other people
15 represented here? 15 connected the dots.
16 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Who specifically did he rely upon
17 Q. So you have no idea whether -- you 17 to connect the dots?
18 have no idea how the money was traced? 18 A. Various lawyers.
19 A. I have -- I have a vague idea, but 19 Q. It was all lawyers?
20 not -- not a detailed idea. 20 A. Lawyers and people who had
21 Q. All right. So what's your vague 21 experience in this type of -- lawyers with
22 idea? 22 experience in this type of issue.
23 A. That the team gathered information 23 Q. He didn't have any bankers,
24 from various sources and were able to connect 24 accountants, anybody of those -- that
25 the dots to trace the money. 25 background?
Page 44 Page 45
2 A. I don't know the background of 2 that's in Exhibit 1, particularly say
3 lawyers before they were lawyers. 3 page '111?
4 Q. I see. And you can't tell me a 4 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
5 list of people who worked on connecting the 5 A. Not on that page, no. I don't even
6 dots? 6 know what that page says.
7 A. They're lawyers and Vadim -- 7 Q. Well, it's right in front of you.
8 Q. No, the names, names, names, do you 8 A. I know, but it doesn't mean
9 have names? 9 anything to me.
10 A. Names of lawyers? 10 Q. Did it mean anything to the U.S.
11 Q. The names of the people who 11 Attorney's Office, as far as you know?
12 connected the dots. 12 A. I don't know.
13 A. Sure. We have Vladimir Pastukhov, 13 Q. So what reporters did you rely upon
14 he's a lawyer; Edward Hardinov, a lawyer; 14 to connect the dots?
15 Jonathan Weiner, lawyer; Neil Micklethwaite, 15 A. Bill Alpert at Barron's in
16 lawyer; Olga Bischof, a lawyer; Martin 16 New York.
17 Gillett, a lawyer; John Ashcroft, lawyer. And 17 Q. Anybody else?
18 then we also worked with various investigative 18 A. Roman Onin, Novilla Gazzetta. I
19 reporters. 19 shouldn't say I relied on them; they worked
20 Q. They connect the dots for you, 20 with our team.
21 reporters connected these dots? 21 Q. Anybody else?
22 A. In some cases reporters connected 22 A. The Organized Crime and Corruption
23 some dots. 23 Reporting Project.
24 Q. I see. And you relied upon 24 Q. Which you supported with a
25 reporters to put together the information 25 substantial amount of money, correct?
12 (Pages 42 to 45)
Page 46 Page 47
2 A. No. 2 fraud, correct?
3 Q. You never contributed any money to 3 A. No, it was relating to the overall
4 the OCCRP? 4 fraud.
5 A. Zero. 5 Q. The overall fraud includes
6 Q. Zero money? 6 230 million, but by your definition 11 point
7 A. Zero. 7 something million dollars?
8 Q. All right. What other reporters 8 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
9 did you rely upon to connect the dots? 9 Q. A billion dollars, I'm sorry, or a
10 A. Those were the principal reporters. 10 billion roubles? What does it include? When
11 If there were others, I don't know their 11 you say "the overall fraud," what are you
12 names. 12 referring to?
13 Q. Anybody else help you connect the 13 A. At the time it was the criminal
14 dots? 14 enterprise that -- that perpetrated the
15 A. Yeah. Yeah, we also subpoenaed, 15 $230 million fraud and other frauds.
16 with the help of your colleague, John Moscow, 16 Q. All right. So going back to this,
17 New York banks, Citibank and JPMorgan in -- I 17 anybody else help you connect the dots?
18 think it was 2009, 2010 -- 2009. 18 A. So the -- yes, the Swiss -- Swiss
19 Q. Actually it was somebody else who 19 Attorney General.
20 actually filed that pleading, correct? 20 Q. I see. Gave you information?
21 A. Someone else filed the pleading, 21 A. Correct.
22 but BakerHostetler came up with the idea and 22 Q. I see. Pursuant to a Subpoena --
23 helped us prepare the original filings with 23 I'm sorry. Pursuant to a proceeding that you
24 the Court. 24 initiated in Switzerland, correct?
25 Q. Okay. That was relating to a prior 25 A. Correct.
Page 48 Page 49
2 Q. And you gave that information to 2 A. Ms. Bino.
3 the U.S. Attorney's Office? 3 Q. How do you spell that?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. B-I-N-O.
5 Q. All right. Was it legal for you to 5 Q. All right. And what was her
6 give it to the U.S. Attorney's Office? 6 position?
7 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 7 A. She was a prosecutor.
8 A. I'm not a lawyer, but we asked for 8 Q. In what capacity, what was her
9 permission from the -- from the prosecutor at 9 title?
10 the time and she gave it to us. 10 A. Federal prosecutor. I don't know
11 Q. The prosecutor in Switzerland? 11 her title.
12 A. Correct. 12 Q. In what canton?
13 Q. And when was that? 13 A. We met with her in Losone, so
14 A. Prior to filing this document. 14 whatever canton Losone is in.
15 Q. Prior to -- 15 Q. So the Swiss proceeding was a
16 A. Prior to December of -- 16 proceeding that you initiated, correct?
17 Q. -- December of 2012? 17 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
18 A. Correct. 18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So is there information in this 19 Q. And were you ever told that
20 document from Switzerland? 20 information in that proceeding was to be
21 A. I would assume so. 21 maintained secret?
22 Q. But you don't know? 22 A. We asked her for permission; she
23 A. No. 23 gave it to us.
24 Q. I see. And you say "she"; who are 24 Q. Were you ever told that information
25 you referring to? 25 in that proceeding was by law secret?
13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 50 Page 51
2 A. Subsequently when the new 2 Switzerland?
3 prosecutor took over it became secret. 3 A. We do.
4 Q. It became secret? 4 Q. Who's your lawyer in Switzerland?
5 A. In other words, she gave us 5 A. It's Lenz -- Lenz & Staehelin.
6 permission. 6 Q. And you said there was a new
7 Q. Written permission? 7 prosecutor, it became secret; who was the new
8 A. I don't know whether it was written 8 prosecutor?
9 or oral. 9 A. Lamal.
10 Q. So you -- 10 Q. So as for as you know, you can't
11 A. We asked -- 11 identify within Exhibit 1 any documents that
12 Q. But if it was written, there would 12 came from the Swiss proceeding; was that
13 be a document that you should have produced in 13 right?
14 response to the Subpoena, right? 14 A. I don't know what's in the exhibit.
15 MR. KIM: Objection to the form. 15 Q. Well, take a look.
16 A. If -- I don't know. 16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And you've never seen a letter 17 MR. KIM: For the record, are you
18 giving you permission? 18 talking about Exhibit 1 to Exhibit 1
19 A. I don't know whether there was a 19 or the entire deposition Exhibit 1.
20 letter or not. 20 MR. CYMROT: The entire deposition
21 Q. And you were never told that Swiss 21 Exhibit 1.
22 law requires information in that proceeding to 22 MR. KIM: The entire document.
23 be secret? 23 MR. CYMROT: Yes.
24 A. No. 24 BY MR. CYMROT:
25 Q. And you have a lawyer in 25 Q. Do you know what you obtained from
Page 52 Page 53
2 Switzerland? 2 page.
3 MR. KIM: I believe there's a 3 A. Sure.
4 question pending. 4 Q. All right. So it has an account
5 MR. CYMROT: I'll withdraw it. 5 number from the Russian Treasury, correct?
6 Q. Do you know what you obtained from 6 A. Yep.
7 Switzerland? 7 Q. Do you know where that account
8 A. No, not exactly. 8 number came from?
9 Q. So you wouldn't know if it were in 9 A. No.
10 here anyway, right? 10 Q. Do you know if it's legal to have
11 A. No. 11 it?
12 Q. So why waste time? 12 A. No, I don't know if it's legal to
13 MR. KIM: It's your time to waste. 13 have it.
14 MR. CYMROT: Don't want to waste 14 Q. And then there's an account number
15 it. 15 for Rilend with Universal Savings Bank; do you
16 MR. KIM: I don't blame you. 16 know where that account number came from?
17 BY MR. CYMROT: 17 A. No.
18 Q. All right. So let's look at -- I 18 Q. All right. Let's go to, for
19 think you have a lot of lines and a lot of 19 instance, '121, same exhibit, Exhibit 1.
20 numbers, but they're all meaningless to you, 20 Do you know what this document is?
21 right? 21 A. No.
22 A. I don't know what's in these 22 Q. Do you know where it was obtained?
23 documents. 23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Let's take a look at 24 Q. Do you know whose hand that is?
25 page '113, just a short sentence, top of the 25 A. No.
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
Page 54 Page 55
2 Q. Do you know whether it's legal for 2 Mr. Magnitsky?
3 you to have it? 3 A. Yes.
4 A. I don't know. 4 Q. And that it was solely a political
5 Q. And you didn't ask? 5 investigation then?
6 A. No. 6 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
7 Q. Did Mr. Kleiner get this document? 7 A. No, I think it was a criminal and
8 A. I don't know. 8 political.
9 Q. So let's take a look at the 9 Q. Criminal in what sense?
10 Verified Complaint. Let's take a look at 10 A. It was a design to perpetrate a
11 paragraph 24. 11 fraud.
12 Is it -- 24, you've read that? 12 Q. In other words, this search, the
13 A. Just give me a chance to read it. 13 sole reason for this search in your view was
14 Yes. 14 to perpetrate the $230 million fraud that's
15 Q. Okay. So it refers to a search of 15 described in the Complaint?
16 Hermitage's offices on June 4, 2007, correct? 16 A. I said that it's political and
17 A. Correct. 17 fraudulent.
18 Q. Is it your view that Russia had 18 Q. Okay. So the fraud is the
19 absolutely no basis for investigating 19 $230 million fraud?
20 Hermitage at that time? 20 A. Correct.
21 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 21 Q. And that the investigators went in
22 A. Yes, my view. 22 with the intent of aiding that fraud; is that
23 Q. And no basis for investigating you? 23 your view?
24 A. Yes. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And no basis for investigating 25 Q. And what's the political angle of
Page 56 Page 57
2 it? 2 A. Saturn invested.
3 A. I think that I was considered to be 3 Q. Invested in what?
4 an enemy of the Russian state. And on the 4 A. Stock market companies.
5 back of that there was sort of a cart blanche 5 Q. In other words, Hermitage Fund --
6 for various arms of the FSB, the Interior 6 let me ask it this way: Where is Kalmykia?
7 Ministry and criminal elements working with 7 A. Kalmykia is a region in southern
8 them to victimize me. 8 Russia.
9 Q. All right. So your companies, 9 Q. Remote from Moscow?
10 while operating in Russia, always paid all the 10 A. Correct.
11 taxes that were due; is that -- 11 Q. And what was the usefulness of
12 A. That's correct. 12 investing funds in Kalmykia?
13 Q. That's correct? 13 A. After -- after the Soviet Union
14 And even when a Court found that 14 broke up, in order to promote regions of
15 there were additional taxes due, you always 15 Russia, a law was passed which allowed regions
16 paid those taxes? 16 to have their own tax regimes similar to what
17 A. Yes. 17 happens with Delaware or Puerto Rico. And
18 Q. And you, Hermitage, set up a 18 Kalmykia and about somewhere between ten or 15
19 company called Saturn in a region called 19 other regions set up their own tax incentives
20 Kalmykia, correct? 20 to attract companies to come there.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. And so you set up Saturn in
22 Q. And what was the business of 22 Kalmykia to invest in Russian stock market
23 Saturn? 23 companies, right?
24 A. Investments. 24 A. I didn't set it up; Hermitage Fund
25 Q. What does that mean? 25 set it up.
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
Page 58 Page 59
2 Q. Well, you were the general 2 sure they were accurate?
3 director, right? 3 A. That's correct.
4 A. No, I was the investment advisor. 4 Q. And what Saturn was doing, it was
5 Q. You were never the general 5 taking stocks that you were investing from
6 director? 6 Moscow and holding those stocks, correct?
7 A. I was not the general director -- 7 A. Saturn was an investment company
8 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 8 holding shares in Russian stock market-traded
9 A. I was not the general director of 9 companies.
10 the Hermitage Fund. 10 Q. Did it have capital of its own?
11 Q. No, you were the general director 11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 of Saturn? 12 Q. Did it have capital to buy stock?
13 A. I was in 2001. 13 You need money to buy stock, right?
14 Q. And for how long? 14 A. Correct.
15 A. I don't know. 15 Q. The money came from Hermitage Fund,
16 Q. So you were the general director of 16 correct?
17 Saturn when it was set up, correct? 17 A. Correct.
18 A. I'm not sure if I was the general 18 Q. And --
19 director of Saturn when it was set up. I was 19 A. Yeah, it came -- it came from -- it
20 the general director of Saturn in 2001. 20 came indirectly from the Hermitage Fund.
21 Q. I see. As general director, you 21 Q. Through a number of shell
22 were personally responsible for filing the tax 22 companies, right?
23 returns, correct? 23 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
24 A. That's correct. 24 A. No, through one Cyprus-based
25 Q. And personally responsible to make 25 company.
Page 60 Page 61
2 Q. So you created a company in Cyprus? 2 decision?
3 A. I didn't create it. 3 A. I didn't object to the decision.
4 Q. Hermitage created it? 4 Q. You knew it was happening?
5 A. Hermitage Fund created a company in 5 A. I was aware of it.
6 Cyprus. 6 Q. And Cyprus, according to you, is a
7 Q. And you're the investment advisor 7 jurisdiction that often used for money
8 of Hermitage Fund? 8 laundering; that's your view, isn't it?
9 A. No. I'm the investment advisor to 9 A. No.
10 HSBC Management Guernsey. HSBC Management 10 Q. You've never said that?
11 Guernsey was the investment manager of the 11 A. I think many jurisdictions are used
12 Hermitage Fund. 12 for money laundering.
13 Q. So you had no idea that Hermitage 13 Q. Cyprus being one?
14 Fund was setting up a company in Cyprus? 14 A. Cyprus being one of many.
15 A. No, I knew that. 15 Q. But you -- you set up a corporation
16 Q. Of course you did, right? 16 there, right?
17 A. I knew that. 17 A. Just about every Russian company
18 Q. Yeah, you knew that? 18 set up -- every Russian investor invested
19 A. I knew that. 19 through Cyprus.
20 Q. You approved the structure? 20 Q. And not every Russian investor who
21 A. I wasn't the one to approve it or 21 invests through Cyprus is doing things
22 disapprove it. The manager was the 22 illegally, right?
23 decision-maker. 23 A. There are many legitimate investors
24 Q. But you made the decision where -- 24 in Cyprus.
25 let's put it this way: You agreed with the 25 Q. All right. So Cyprus -- this
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 62 Page 63
2 Cyprus company, which was, what, Kone or 2 Q. All right. And held it and if
3 Glendora? 3 there was an appreciation, it would go to the
4 A. I don't remember the names of the 4 benefit of Saturn?
5 Cyprus companies. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Was holding Saturn? 6 Q. Fine. And then the taxes due on
7 A. A Cyprus company was holding -- was 7 that were paid by Saturn?
8 the -- was the shareholder in Saturn. 8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Right. And the funds for Saturn's 9 Q. And you were the general director?
10 investment came indirectly from the Hermitage 10 A. In 2001.
11 Fund? 11 Q. And you had to sign the tax
12 A. Correct. 12 returns?
13 Q. Cyprus -- Saturn didn't create any 13 A. I did.
14 funds of its own? 14 Q. Fine. And the tax regimes in --
15 A. It did through the appreciation of 15 that were set up in Kalmykia required the
16 shares. 16 hiring of basically Afghan war veterans who
17 Q. But in the initial purchase of 17 had disabilities, right?
18 shares, it needed to get money from the 18 A. No.
19 Hermitage Fund? 19 Q. What did it -- what did it require?
20 A. So the Hermitage Fund funded Saturn 20 A. Could you repeat the question?
21 Investments. 21 Q. Yeah. What were the tax regimes
22 Q. Right. And then Saturn purchased 22 you were relying upon?
23 stock or Hermitage Fund purchased stock and 23 A. There were -- there were two tax
24 transferred it to Saturn? 24 incentives in Kalmykia. There were two tax
25 A. Saturn purchased stock. 25 incentives that we relied on or that Hermitage
Page 64 Page 65
2 Fund relied on. The first was the Kalmykian 2 Q. You just made a regular payment?
3 tax regime, which allowed the companies to pay 3 A. You make a regular payment on an
4 lesser tax than in other regions, and the 4 annual basis. It could have been a quarterly
5 handicapped tax benefit which allowed a 5 basis, I don't remember.
6 reduction in the federal tax rate. 6 Q. For what basis, for what purpose?
7 Q. In other words, one was that a 7 A. To maintain your tax status.
8 majority of your employees in Kalmykia had to 8 Q. So you represented on the Saturn
9 be physically challenged persons? 9 tax returns that a majority of your Kalmykian
10 A. Handicapped tax regime required 10 employees were physically challenged persons?
11 that more than 50 percent of the employees 11 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
12 qualify under certain rules of definition of 12 Q. Correct?
13 handicapped individuals. 13 MR. KIM: Is that an exhibit or
14 Q. Right. And the other tax regime 14 you're asking him just to recall.
15 was that you had to -- Saturn had to invest 15 MR. CYMROT: I'm just asking him
16 in -- in the Kalmykian region, correct? 16 to recall.
17 A. No. 17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was the other tax regime? 18 MR. CYMROT: He recalled.
19 A. That you had to be registered, had 19 MR. KIM: Good recall.
20 to subscribe for a public offering, and then 20 MR. CYMROT: Good.
21 you had to make a -- a regular payment to the 21 BY MR. CYMROT:
22 Kalmykian authorities. 22 Q. And you listed those people as
23 Q. For the purpose of investing in the 23 expert analysts division, working in the
24 region? 24 expert analyst division; do you remember that?
25 A. No. 25 A. No.
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
Page 66 Page 67
2 Q. What did you list them as? 2 A. No.
3 A. I didn't list them as anything. 3 Q. Who filed the tax returns?
4 Q. Well, who did the listing then? 4 A. Some other employees of Firestone
5 A. We contracted out the management of 5 Duncan.
6 these companies to Firestone Duncan, an 6 Q. When you say he was working on it,
7 American law and accounting firm. 7 what was he doing it?
8 Q. And you gave power of attorney to 8 A. When -- there was a challenge in
9 Sergei Magnitsky to file the tax returns 9 the court over -- over the tax payments, so he
10 right? 10 represented us in court.
11 A. No. 11 Q. And he never had a power of
12 Q. Who did you give a power of 12 attorney from you to do the tax returns?
13 attorney to? 13 A. Not in 2001, not that I'm aware of.
14 A. Firestone -- I don't know who I 14 Q. How about in 2002?
15 gave it to you, but Sergei Magnitsky wasn't 15 A. I don't think so, but I --
16 working on -- on this at that time. 16 Q. 2003?
17 Q. I see. He was working at Firestone 17 A. I don't know.
18 Duncan, right? 18 Q. How about 1999?
19 A. He was, but not on this situation 19 A. I don't know.
20 until 2002. 20 Q. Who came up with the idea that you
21 Q. I see. So in 2001 he wasn't 21 could use this tax regime?
22 working on it, but in 2002 he was? 22 A. This was a common market practice.
23 A. Yes. 23 There was more than 15,000 companies
24 Q. And he was the one that filed the 24 registered in Kalmykia doing this, and this
25 tax returns? 25 was -- we were advised by Arthur Andersen,
Page 68 Page 69
2 Firestone Duncan, Ernst & Young and various 2 A. No.
3 other firms that this was a proper way of 3 Q. Do you see on the second page it
4 organizing our affairs. 4 says in the middle that -- it names three
5 Q. But the courts in Kalmykia didn't 5 employees were engaged with the position of
6 agree with you, correct? 6 expert analyst division; do you see that?
7 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 7 MR. KIM: Where on the page?
8 A. There was -- there was -- they did 8 A. Where is that?
9 and they didn't. 9 Q. It's -- one, two, three, four,
10 MR. CYMROT: So let's have Tab 38. 10 five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, --
11 All right. I'm marking as Browder 11 12 lines down.
12 Exhibit 3 a Decision No. 205, 12 A. Yes, I see that.
13 February 26, 2003; Case 13 Q. You didn't use them as expert
14 No. A22-1022/02/6/105. 14 analysts, did you?
15 Q. I'm handing you the English, and I 15 A. I wasn't managing the employees.
16 think the Russian is attached on the back. 16 Q. Who was managing the employees?
17 (Browder Exhibit 3, document Bates 17 A. Firestone Duncan.
18 stamped BrowderDepo0001471 through 18 Q. And who at Firestone Duncan was
19 '477 was marked for identification, as 19 managing the employees?
20 of this date.) 20 A. I don't know.
21 BY MR. CYMROT: 21 Q. You have no idea who was -- you
22 Q. So have you seen this decision 22 were the general director and you have no idea
23 before? 23 who was managing these employees?
24 A. No. 24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Were you informed of it? 25 Q. And it wasn't Mr. Magnitsky?
18 (Pages 66 to 69)
Page 70 Page 71
2 A. It wasn't Mr. Magnitsky. 2 nothing to do with Saturn and were only used
3 Q. I see. And it said that -- if you 3 by the Claimant to get the income tax relief."
4 go further down, that these three employees 4 Do you see that?
5 were disabled, they were working at other 5 A. Yes.
6 locations as physical laborers. Do you see 6 Q. And that's what the Court found,
7 that? 7 right?
8 A. Where does it say that? 8 A. Yep.
9 Q. If you go down to "In such 9 Q. And then if you go to the last
10 circumstance," last full paragraph, I think. 10 page, it's decided that there's additional tax
11 "The arbitration court finds that 11 due. Taxing authority had fined the company
12 all economic activities of 000" -- which is 12 basically 903,000 roubles. There were arrears
13 referring to Saturn -- "was carried out at its 13 of 4.6 million roubles. There's penalty
14 actual address. And the above-specified 14 interest of 487,000 roubles, an additional
15 persons" -- and it names four of them -- 15 payment of 252,000 roubles. And in the end,
16 bearing in mind their education and 16 the Court wiped out the fine and the
17 qualification." 17 additional payment, but said the arrears and
18 A. I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time 18 penalty interest were due.
19 finding where you started, if you can just 19 Do you see that in the last
20 point it out to me on this document. 20 paragraph?
21 Q. Right here. 21 A. Yes.
22 A. Okay. 22 Q. All right. Did you pay the taxes
23 Q. "Bukayev has no education or 23 that were due?
24 qualifications. Badykov is a worker. 24 A. I believe -- and I -- I'm -- this
25 Byatkiyev is a machine engineer. It had 25 is long, long time ago, that there was an
Page 72 Page 73
2 appeal. 2 Q. You don't think these judges --
3 Q. All right. Let's go to the appeal. 3 there are three judges here, you don't think
4 (Browder Exhibit 4, document Bates 4 they were corrupt, do you?
5 stamped BrowderDepo0001478 through 5 A. I don't know anything about these
6 '484 was marked for identification, as 6 judges.
7 of this date.) 7 Q. You don't have any information to
8 MR. CYMROT: All right. I'm 8 suggest they were politically motivated, do
9 marking as Exhibit 4 a decision, 9 you?
10 May 5, 2003, of the Arbitration Court 10 A. I don't know anything about these
11 of the Republic of Kalmykia. 11 judges.
12 BY MR. CYMROT: 12 Q. Isn't it true you bankrupted Saturn
13 Q. Have you ever seen this before? 13 rather than pay the taxes?
15 Q. You were informed of the result? 15 A. No.
16 A. No. 16 Q. Saturn was put into bankruptcy,
17 Q. Well, if you look to the end, the 17 wasn't it?
18 result is that the decision -- the prior court 18 A. Not that I'm aware of.
19 decision of February 26, 2003 was upheld; do 19 Q. These taxes paid?
20 you see that? 20 A. There was an audit done by the
21 A. Yes. 21 federal tax service in 2003 which gave Saturn
22 Q. Did you pay this? 22 a clean audit.
23 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 23 Q. On May 5, 2003, the Arbitration
24 Q. Did Saturn pay this? 24 Court of Kalmykia said there were additional
25 A. Not that I'm aware of. 25 taxes due. Does that override an order, an
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
Page 74 Page 75
2 audit? 2 A. Not with me.
3 A. Yes. 3 Q. But you should have produced it to
4 Q. That's your view? 4 us as part of the Subpoena?
5 A. Yes. 5 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
6 Q. Okay. And let's look at the other 6 Q. You didn't produce it to us as part
7 company that you've created in Kalmykia. By 7 of the Subpoena. Will you produce it to us?
8 the way, did Saturn have income? Must have 8 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
9 had income if it had taxes due? 9 A. If it's part of the Subpoena, I'm
10 A. I would imagine so. 10 obliged to then of course.
11 Q. Was the income removed from Russia? 11 Q. And we can invite you back to ask
12 A. I don't know. I would imagine so. 12 you questions about it because it should have
13 Q. And what do you have to do, what 13 been produced before today.
14 did you have to do or what did Saturn have to 14 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
15 do to remove its income from Russia? 15 Actually I'm not sure what I'm
16 A. I don't know. 16 objecting to because it's not a
17 Q. Did it have to make representations 17 question.
18 to the taxing authority? 18 MR. CYMROT: You're objecting to
19 A. I don't know. 19 the fact that we're inviting him
20 Q. Did it have to make representations 20 back --
21 to the Central Bank? 21 MR. KIM: Okay.
22 A. I don't know. 22 MR. CYMROT: -- I'm sure. But we
23 Q. By the way, the audit that you 23 are.
24 refer to, the federal audit in 2003 of Saturn, 24 BY MR. CYMROT:
25 do you have a copy of that? 25 Q. So, you set up another company,
Page 76 Page 77
2 Dalnaya Step, D-A-L-N-A-Y-A, Step, correct? 2 Q. And you were the general director
3 A. No. 3 of Dalnaya Step?
4 Q. Who set it up? 4 A. In 2001.
5 A. Hermitage Fund. 5 MR. CYMROT: Let's look at '121.
6 Q. And that was through a Cyprus 6 Q. And Mr. Ivan Cherkasov -- I didn't
7 company? 7 pronounce that correctly. How do you
8 A. Correct. 8 pronounce his name?
9 Q. So the Cyprus company owned Dalnaya 9 A. That's how you -- you pronounced it
10 Step, correct? 10 correctly.
11 A. It owned some share capital in 11 Q. Oh, okay. He was the general
12 Dalnaya Step. 12 director also at -- at a certain period of
13 Q. And what was the business of 13 time?
14 Dalnaya Step? 14 A. I'm not sure.
15 A. Investments. 15 MR. CYMROT: I'm marking as
16 Q. Again, from Hermitage Fund -- funds 16 Exhibit 5 a Spark report for Dalnaya
17 to buy the investments came from the Hermitage 17 Step, LLC.
18 Fund, directly or indirectly? 18 (Browder Exhibit 5, Spark Report
19 A. Indirectly. 19 for Dalnaya Step, LLC was marked for
20 Q. And Dalnaya Step purchased Russian 20 identification, as of this date.)
21 stock basically, right? 21 BY MR. CYMROT:
22 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. Does that refresh your
23 Q. And then when there was income 23 recollection that you were the general
24 there were taxes due, correct? 24 director in 2002?
25 A. Correct. 25 A. Yes.
20 (Pages 74 to 77)
Page 78 Page 79
2 Q. And Mr. Cherkasov was in 2004? 2 Q. So who signed the tax returns that
3 MR. KIM: Can we stop for a 3 made those representations?
4 moment? We don't have a copy yet. 4 A. I did.
5 Thank you. 5 Q. And those were incorrect
6 Q. Is that true? 6 representations --
7 A. Is this -- I don't know. I mean, 7 A. No.
8 I -- 8 Q. -- according to the court?
9 Q. You don't know what that -- 9 A. No, but the -- as I mentioned
10 A. I don't know what a Spark report 10 before, the ultimate decision was with the tax
11 is, but I was general director if -- if I -- 11 authority's who gave a clean audit.
12 without confirmation from Ivan, he could be, 12 Q. That tax court found there were
13 could be not. 13 incorrect representations on those tax
14 Q. All right. And as general 14 returns, weren't there?
15 director, you had personal responsibility for 15 A. And then the subsequent Plaintiff,
16 the tax returns, correct? 16 the tax authorities did an audit and found
17 A. That is correct. 17 everything to be correct.
18 Q. Let me go back to Saturn a minute, 18 Q. So you say, but you haven't given
19 because the court found that the employees who 19 it to us. According to the court, there were
20 were listed as those with handicaps in fact 20 incorrect representations. That's right, and
21 did not work for the company or were not 21 that's where we leave it in terms of the
22 capable of doing the work that the tax returns 22 documents we have here today, right?
23 said they were capable of doing. You remember 23 A. I'm sorry. What -- what's the
24 that quote I gave you? 24 question?
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. The question is that the court
Page 80 Page 81
2 found there were improper representations 2 have I marked it yet? I haven't
3 about the employees of Saturn on the tax 3 marked it yet. Let's give you that.
4 returns? 4 (Browder Exhibit 6, document Bates
5 A. Right. You showed me those 5 stamped BrowderDepo0001518 through
6 documents. 6 '521 was marked for identification, as
7 Q. Yes. And do you have any 7 of this date.)
8 information that would suggest those employees 8 BY MR. CYMROT:
9 were capable of being analysts for Saturn? 9 Q. Have you seen this decision before?
10 A. I -- I have an audit from the tax 10 It's December 9, 2005, Arbitration Court,
11 authorities of Kalmykia giving a clean 11 Republic of Kalmykia, and it's Case No.
12 audit -- giving a clean bill of health to both 12 A22-1398-05-13-172.
13 companies in late 2003. 13 Actually, read this stuff later.
14 Q. After the court decided otherwise? 14 A. What's the question?
15 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Have you seen this before?
16 Q. All right. And you're going to 16 A. No.
17 produce that to us? 17 Q. Were you informed of it?
18 A. Sure. 18 A. No.
19 MR. KIM objection to form. 19 Q. So this is the first time you're
20 Q. Okay. So let's go Dalnaya -- 20 aware that the Arbitration Court of Kalmykia
21 Dalnaya Step. There was a decision 21 found unpaid taxes in the amount of 5155 --
22 December 9, 2005, which I marked as -- 22 I'm sorry -- 551 million roubles?
23 MR. CYMROT: -- what, Exhibit 4? 23 A. What's the question?
24 THE REPORTER: 5. 24 Q. Is this the first time that you've
25 MR. CYMROT: 5? No, that's -- 25 learned that the Kalmykian arbitration court
21 (Pages 78 to 81)
Page 82 Page 83
2 found unpaid taxes for Dalnaya Step of 2 judgment for Dalnaya Step.
3 551 million roubles? 3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. I'm sorry. Where -- where are you
5 Q. That's almost, what, $20 million? 5 reading from?
6 A. I don't have my calculator, so... 6 Q. I'm just reading from the title
7 Q. Take my word for it. I checked the 7 "Decree in Bankruptcy Proceedings." It says
8 exchange rate and used my calculator. It's 8 that the end order and the judge, Dalnaya
9 19 million and something. 9 Step, shall be considered an absent debtor.
10 All right. And isn't it true that 10 Absent debtor Dalnaya Step shall be declared
11 after this decision Hermitage bankrupted 11 insolvent. A trustee appointed. The
12 Dalnaya Step? 12 information is to be published. The federal
13 A. No. 13 tax service shall be compensated for -- shall
14 Q. Okay. Let's look at Tab 63. 14 compensate the trustee.
15 (Browder Exhibit 7, document Bates 15 You see that? Three judges.
16 stamped BrowderDepo0001522 through 16 A. Where is that?
17 '530 was marked for identification, as 17 Q. The last two pages.
18 of this date.) 18 A. Yes.
19 BY MR. CYMROT: 19 Q. All right. So Dalnaya Step is put
20 Q. Have you ever seen this opinion 20 into bankruptcy. Judgment is entered. You
21 before? 21 see that? That's news to you?
22 This is Arbitration Court of the 22 A. No.
23 Republic of Kalmykia, June 9, 2007. It's 23 Q. Didn't know that?
24 entitled "Judgment Case No. 24 A. No.
25 A22-941-06-15-133." It is a bankruptcy 25 Q. All right. Did you know that the
Page 84 Page 85
2 tax authority was the only creditor of Dalnaya 2 steps there.
3 Step? 3 But on the first page, last two
4 A. I wasn't aware of this judgment, so 4 sentences, the court found that the UFNS of
5 I didn't know that. 5 Russia for the Republic of Kalmykia was the
6 Q. And were you aware -- how did this 6 only creditor.
7 get a -- how did this -- let me ask you 7 Do you see that?
8 another question. 8 A. I do.
9 Are you aware of an appeal of this 9 Q. So in other words there were taxes
10 judgment? 10 due. Is that the way you would understand
11 A. No. 11 that?
12 Q. Well, let's show you that. 12 A. Yes.
13 MR. CYMROT: 64. 13 Q. And you were totally unaware of
14 (Browder Exhibit 8, document Bates 14 these events? You weren't aware of this
15 stamped BrowderDepo0001531 through 15 decree, aware of the appeal, aware of the fact
16 '535 was marked for identification, as 16 that Dalnaya Step was placed in bankruptcy,
17 of this date.) 17 and that taxes were owed?
18 BY MR. CYMROT: 18 A. Totally unaware.
19 Q. All right. I put in front of you 19 Q. How would that happen within
20 Exhibit 8, which is a decree, October 22, 20 Hermitage?
21 2007. Same case number for Dalnaya Step. 21 MR. KIM objection to form.
22 Report of the bankruptcy trustee is affirmed. 22 A. I don't understand your question.
23 Bankruptcy -- bankruptcy proceeding against 23 Q. How could it happen that one of
24 absent debtor Dalnaya Step shall be concluded. 24 your companies is placed in bankruptcy and has
25 It goes on to describe various 25 taxes due and you don't even know about it?
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
Page 86 Page 87
2 MR. KIM objection to form. 2 Q. Where is he?
3 A. This wasn't one of our companies at 3 A. I don't know.
4 that point. 4 Q. Well, where is his company located?
5 Q. Whose company was it? 5 A. Moscow.
6 A. We had transferred this company to 6 Q. And how did you transfer the
7 be liquidated in 2004. 7 company?
8 Q. Without paying the taxes, 8 A. We registered his -- his corporate
9 apparently. 9 name or his personal name or something.
10 A. No. We paid the taxes and had it 10 Q. Was there a compensation paid?
11 confirmed. 11 A. I don't know the details. It
12 Q. Confirmed by what? 12 wasn't my responsibility.
13 A. By the person we transferred the 13 Q. Whose responsibility was it?
14 companies to. 14 A. The manager of the fund HS -- HSBC.
15 Q. Who did you transfer the companies 15 Q. HSBC Guernsey?
16 to? 16 A. Yes.
17 A. We transferred it a firm called 17 Q. And it was transferred, you said,
18 VMRG [sic]. 18 to be liquidated?
19 Q. What is VMRG? 19 A. Correct.
20 A. Visao Risk Management Group. 20 Q. And I think I asked you: Was there
21 Q. Visao? How do you spell that? 21 compensation paid?
22 A. V-I-S-A-O. 22 A. I don't know the details.
23 Q. And who runs that group? 23 Q. In any case -- do you know a man --
24 A. It's run by a man named Jakir 24 man named Ariel Bus- -- Busaka?
25 Shaashoua. 25 A. No.
Page 88 Page 89
2 Q. Busada? 2 business?
3 A. No. 3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Isn't that a name you use in Red 4 Q. Why do you use a pseudonym for
5 Notice? 5 Mr. Shaashoua in your book?
6 A. Yes. 6 A. I used pseudonyms for a lot of
7 Q. So you know who that is? 7 people.
8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Why did you use a pseudonym for
9 Q. So who is it? 9 him?
10 A. That's Jakir Shaashoua. 10 A. I don't recall.
11 Q. How do you spell his name, 11 Q. Is he in danger in some way?
12 Shaashoua? 12 A. I don't know.
13 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Do you know what -- for -- for what
14 Q. So as of October of 2007, there 14 tax years this $20 million is due?
15 were taxes due -- just a second. 15 A. No.
16 When did you make the transfer? 16 Q. Do you know whether it's when you
17 MR. KIM objection to form. 17 hold -- held the company?
18 A. I didn't make any transfer. 18 A. I'm sorry.
19 Q. To Mr. Shaashoua? 19 Q. Do you know whether it was due for
20 A. I -- I didn't make any transfer. 20 time periods when you owned or Hermitage Fund
21 Q. When did Hermitage transfer Dalnaya 21 owned the company?
22 Step to Mr. Shaashoua? 22 A. I don't know.
23 A. Sometime in 2004. 23 Q. Well, if you look at the decision
24 Q. Okay. In 2000- -- thereafter do 24 in No. 6.
25 you know whether Dalnaya Step had any 25 A. In Exhibit 6?
23 (Pages 86 to 89)
Page 90 Page 91
2 Q. Yes, Exhibit 6. 2 Q. So at the time that the search
3 A. Yes. 3 warrant was executed in June of 2007, the
4 Q. It says that, as of May 3, 2005, it 4 situation was that the courts had found that
5 is suggested that Dalnaya Step voluntarily pay 5 you had taken advantage of the tax regime in
6 the taxes sanctioned in the amount of 6 Kalmykia, had taxes due, they were unpaid, the
7 91 million roubles. 7 company was bankrupt.
8 So that would have been for a prior 8 You say that's not a grounds to
9 tax year, wouldn't it? 9 conduct an investigation?
10 A. I'm not an accountant. I don't 10 MR. KIM: Objection --
11 know. 11 A. So you're --
12 Q. You don't have a decision in 2005 12 MR. KIM: -- to form.
13 for the tax year 2005, do you, to file the tax 13 A. -- you're -- you're -- break it
14 for 2005 at the end of 2005? 14 down into smaller pieces. I don't -- I don't
15 So we're talking about prior tax 15 know what you're -- you're trying to say here.
16 years when Hermitage Fund owned this 16 Q. What I'm trying to say is you've
17 company -- 17 said that the investigative authorities had
18 MR. KIM objection to form. 18 absolutely no basis for conducting an
19 Q. -- there were taxes found to be due 19 investigation of Hermitage Fund in 2007.
20 by this Court. And that's news to you? 20 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what these decisions show is
22 Q. And the company ultimately is 22 there were false statements on tax returns,
23 bankrupt without paying the taxes. That's 23 there were taxes due, they went unpaid, and
24 what happened isn't it? 24 the company was placed in bankruptcy.
25 A. I don't know. 25 MR. KIM: Objection to the form
Page 92 Page 93
2 and the characterization of the 2 Q. You haven't given us that letter.
3 documents. 3 I'll tell you, you haven't given us
4 Q. Don't you agree that that would be 4 that letter. So we have to take your word for
5 a basis for the investigative authorities to 5 it? Is that the idea?
6 investigate whether there had been any 6 A. Well, in -- in due course I'm sure
7 wrongdoing? 7 that, when we get to producing, I think we
8 A. In -- in 2006, after I was expelled 8 produced about half a million documents for
9 from the country, we wrote to the Interior 9 you so far, so I can't tell you what we
10 Ministry and Federal Border Service of Russia 10 will -- we have and haven't produced yet.
11 to inquire about whether there was any 11 Q. So if the facts are as the way I
12 criminal investigations open into -- into me 12 described them, would you dispute that the
13 in relation to any activities in the 13 investigative -- the Ministry of Interior had
14 Federation of Russia in order to determine 14 grounds to investigate Hermitage Fund for tax
15 whether my expulsion from Russia was due to 15 evasion?
16 any criminal investigations. And we were 16 A. Yes. Because -- because the facts
17 informed that there were no criminal 17 how you've -- how you've represented them
18 investigations inside the Russian Federation. 18 aren't correct. There was no -- no
19 Q. At that time. 19 investigation open into me in 2006, and
20 A. In 2006. 20 subsequent to that -- and we've learned this
21 Q. And you're sure they would have 21 recently, that some -- that the
22 told you? 22 investigation -- there had been an
23 A. Yes. 23 investigation in 2004 that was closed into --
24 Q. You have that letter? 24 that had looked into Dalnaya Step and had been
25 A. I have that letter. 25 closed due to lack of crime. So --
24 (Pages 90 to 93)
Page 94 Page 95
2 Q. You have that document? 2 investigation of Hermitage for tax fraud in
3 A. Yes. 3 2004 and 2005?
4 Q. You're going to give us that 4 A. I became aware of that recently.
5 document? 5 Q. You weren't aware of it at the
6 A. Of course. 6 time?
7 Q. By the way, Saturn became 7 A. No.
8 Parfenion? 8 Q. But -- so the Ministry of Interior
9 A. I don't know. 9 was investigating Hermitage for tax fraud from
10 MR. CYMROT: Let's take about a 10 2004 and finally searched its offices with a
11 15-minute break. 11 search warrant in 2007, correct?
12 MR. KIM: Sure. 12 A. No.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 13 Q. What happened?
14 11:10 a.m. We're coming off the 14 A. The Interior Ministry was
15 record. 15 investigating Hermitage in 2004; closed the
16 (Whereupon, at this time, a short 16 case in 2005.
17 break was taken.) 17 Q. Who told you that?
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 18 A. I got information in 2000- -- some
19 11:24 a.m. We are back on the record. 19 recent year.
20 BY MR. CYMROT: 20 Q. From whom?
21 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Browder, the 21 A. I can't remember where it came
22 investigation that led to the search in 2007 22 from.
23 started before 2007, didn't it? 23 Q. So just this amorphous information
24 A. Not that I'm aware of. 24 that it was closed?
25 Q. You weren't aware there was a -- an 25 A. Yes.
Page 96 Page 97
2 Q. But you don't know whether it's 2 Q. No documents?
3 true for not. It's just what somebody told 3 A. There might be.
4 you? 4 Q. But you don't have any?
5 A. No, no. I'm pretty sure it's true. 5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Was it a person in a position to 6 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Shaashoua who bought
7 know? 7 Dalnaya Step?
8 A. I can't remember. 8 A. Yes -- no. His firm did, I think.
9 Q. So we have this anonymous person 9 Q. All right. Well --
10 who says the investigation was closed, but 10 A. Maybe him. I don't remember.
11 then there's a search warrant in 2007, and 11 Q. Could you speak up a little?
12 that we know. So we know that there was an 12 A. I don't know exactly who bought it.
13 investigation in 2004 and 2005 and a search 13 I think it was him or his firm.
14 warrant in 2000- -- search warrant executed in 14 Q. All right. And when did you first
15 2007, and then we have this amorphous "but I 15 meet him?
16 was told it was close." 16 A. 1998.
17 That's all we know right now; is 17 Q. And did you do business with him in
18 that right? 18 any other ways?
19 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 19 A. He provided security for Republic
20 A. No. 20 National Bank, who was the business partner of
21 Q. What more do we know? 21 my investment advisory firm.
22 A. We know that it was closed in 2005. 22 Q. Mr. Safra. So that -- you met him
23 Q. From this source -- unidentified 23 through Mr. Safra?
24 source says it was closed in 2005? 24 A. Correct.
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. Edmond Safra?
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
Page 98 Page 99
2 A. Correct. 2 liability was ever paid?
3 Q. Okay. So he provided security 3 A. He confirmed it was.
4 services, you say? 4 Q. Who confirmed it was?
5 A. Security and risk management 5 A. Shaashoua.
6 services. 6 Q. In writing?
7 Q. All right. 7 A. I think so.
8 A. And -- and various legal services 8 Q. You've seen the writing?
9 as well. 9 A. I've not personally, but I'm -- I'm
10 Q. And you knew him from 2000- -- from 10 sure someone on my team has.
11 1998 until when? 11 Q. You have the writing?
12 A. I guess till after I was kicked out 12 A. I would assume so. I don't know.
13 of Russia in 2005. 13 Q. All right. Well, we'll -- we'd
14 Q. You lost touch with him? 14 like that writing also.
15 A. Yes, now I have. 15 So in 2005, you were quite a
16 Q. When did you lose touch with him? 16 supporter of Vladimir Putin's, right?
17 A. I don't -- I don't remember. 17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And so did he do any due diligence 18 Q. And so at the time the
19 to buy Dalnaya Step? 19 investigation began, it wasn't politically
20 A. I wasn't involved in the si- -- in 20 motivated, because you were a big supporter of
21 the situation. 21 the government at that point?
22 Q. Sale of a company would generally 22 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
23 generate a tax liability, wouldn't it? 23 Q. Isn't that true?
24 A. Correct. 24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know whether that tax 25 Q. 2004 you weren't a big supporter of
Page 100 Page 101
2 the government? 2 A. No.
3 A. In 2004 I was a big supporter of 3 Q. That never happened?
4 the government. 4 A. It did, but not then.
5 Q. And the investigation started at 5 Q. I see. When did that happen?
6 that time? 6 A. It happened in 2013.
7 A. Yeah. 7 Q. All right. Well, we'll get back
8 Q. So you wouldn't say the 8 into that.
9 investigation started for political reasons, 9 MR. CYMROT: So we need, let's
10 right? 10 see, Tab 61.
11 A. I would say it did. 11 I'm going to mark as Exhibit 9 a
12 Q. At -- in 2004? 12 PowerPoint, "Seven Big Myths About
13 A. Yes. 13 Russia."
14 Q. Even though you're a big supporter 14 (Browder Exhibit 9, document Bates
15 of the government? 15 stamped BrowderDepo0001485 through
16 A. Yes. 16 '517 was marked for identification, as
17 Q. What were the political reasons in 17 of this date.)
18 2004? 18 BY MR. CYMROT:
19 A. We were a big critics of corruption 19 Q. Do you recognize this document?
20 at Gazprom, one of the most important 20 Just for the record, it says "By
21 government-connected companies in the country. 21 William Browder, Chief Executive Officer,
22 Q. And they were criticizing -- the 22 Hermitage Capital Management, April 2005."
23 government was criticizing you for buying 23 Okay. So do you recognize that
24 internal shares of Gazprom when you were a 24 document?
25 foreign company, right? 25 A. I do.
26 (Pages 98 to 101)
Page 102 Page 103
2 Q. You put it together, right? 2 Q. I see. And so people ought to
3 A. Yes. 3 invest in Russia. That's kind of the point of
4 Q. And I don't want to go through all 4 this, right?
5 of it, but basically the theme here is that 5 A. The point of this was that the
6 Mr. Putin's critics are wrong about you, 6 market prices should be higher.
7 right? 7 Q. I see. So that your stocks will be
8 A. I think the -- no. 8 worth more. Stocks that Hermitage Funds own
9 Q. Okay. You describe it. What's the 9 will be worth more?
10 theme? 10 A. Yes.
11 A. The theme is that the Russian 11 Q. And you'll make more money?
12 market is overly discounting the negative 12 A. Correct.
13 sentiment about Putin. 13 Q. Okay. Did you know Mr. Kasyanov?
14 Q. Okay. So that the market itself is 14 A. Vaguely. He was a prime minister
15 more valuable because Putin's doing a good 15 of Russia.
16 job? 16 Q. Right. Did you have personal
17 A. No. 17 contact with him?
18 Q. All right. Explain it to me then. 18 A. Recently I have.
19 Why is the market discounting -- 19 Q. When was that?
20 A. The market is -- 20 A. Three months ago.
21 Q. -- overly discounting? 21 Q. Where was that?
22 A. The market is overly discounting, 22 A. In London.
23 as you just said, the Russian stocks because 23 Q. And what was the occasion?
24 they're too pessimistic about Putin's 24 A. It was the fifth anniversary of
25 governing for Russia. 25 Sergei Magnitsky's death.
Page 104 Page 105
2 Q. And there was an event? 2 A. I think I shook his hand once.
3 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you meet Vladimir Putin at any
4 Q. And he was there? 4 point in time?
5 A. Yes. 5 A. Never.
6 Q. And you and he spoke? 6 Q. Now, when were you denied entry
7 A. We spoke on the same panel. We -- 7 into Russia?
8 he joined for dinner afterwards. 8 A. November 13, 2005.
9 Q. You had dinner with him? 9 (Whereupon, an off-the-record
10 A. I had dinner with him and 30 10 discussion was held.)
11 people. 11 Q. All right. And when were you
12 Q. Did you speak to him directly? 12 convicted?
13 A. Yes. 13 A. Sometime in July 2013.
14 Q. What did you talk about? 14 Q. How about July 11, 2011? No?
15 A. We talked about the Putin regime. 15 Is there an appeal you're referring
16 Talked about Ukraine. Talked about Sergei 16 to?
17 Magnitsky. 17 A. (Shaking.)
18 Q. And did you and he agree on these 18 Q. All right. Let me pull it out.
19 subjects? 19 (Browder Exhibit 10, document
20 A. Yes. 20 Bates stamped BrowderDepo0001408
21 Q. You did. 21 through '470 was marked for
22 Did you know him back when he was 22 identification, as of this date.)
23 prime minister? 23 BY MR. CYMROT:
24 A. No. 24 Q. You're right; '13.
25 Q. Never met him? 25 So this is an English translation
27 (Pages 102 to 105)
Page 106 Page 107
2 along with the Russian in the back, a judgment 2 sentence which is 28 of 30.
3 in the name of the Russian Federation. And if 3 A. Where is that?
4 you go to the end of it, it convicts you of 4 Q. Page 28 of 30. If you look at the
5 tax evasion, correct? 5 top, there are page numbers on the top.
6 A. Yes. 6 I'd give you a Bates number, but
7 Q. And you have said many times that 7 mine is not Bates-numbered. Just look at the
8 Mr. Magnitsky was convicted posthumously. 8 top of the page there.
9 You've said that? 9 All right. It says "Sentenced."
10 A. Yes. 10 So on Bates No. 1434, the sentence only refers
11 Q. And on the first page it appears 11 to you, correct?
12 that it's dismissed against Mr. Magnitsky, 12 A. I see my name here.
13 correct? 13 Q. "William Felix Browder found guilty
14 A. No. 14 of committing two crimes" and -- and then it
15 Q. Under paragraph 4 of Article 24 of 15 goes on, right?
16 the Code of Criminal Procedure of the Russian 16 A. Correct.
17 Federation. 17 Q. And there's nothing about
18 Do you see that? 18 Mr. Magnitsky being convicted of anything,
19 A. Yes. 19 correct?
20 Q. So he wasn't convicted 20 A. I'm not a Russian criminal lawyer,
21 posthumously, right? You were wrong about 21 so I couldn't make a judgment about this --
22 that? 22 about this conviction.
23 A. No. I don't -- I don't read it as 23 Q. Well, it appears from these two
24 such. 24 entries that you were wrong. That he was
25 Q. Let's see. Well, let's look at the 25 never convicted posthumously, right?
Page 108 Page 109
2 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. You know, he just claimed
3 Q. You -- your sticking to your 3 privilege for you.
4 position even though the document says 4 I'm reading the document. It says
5 otherwise? 5 "Case is dismissed. The individual decision
6 A. Yes. 6 to dismiss the crime case on the basis of
7 Q. Because you're not a Russian 7 paragraph 4 of Article 24."
8 lawyer? 8 Do you see that?
9 A. That's correct. 9 It's at the beginning. Then at the
10 Q. All right. But you have Russian 10 end, "Sentenced. Only Felix -- William Felix
11 lawyers working for you, right? 11 Browder."
12 A. I do. 12 You're sticking by your position no
13 Q. And they've reviewed this 13 matter what, right?
14 conviction, and they've said there's somewhere 14 A. Is there a --
15 someplace in this conviction that it refers to 15 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
16 Mr. Magnitsky as being convicted of something? 16 A. My analysis is different than
17 MR. KIM: Objection. I think 17 yours.
18 communications with his lawyers are 18 Q. Do you have anything in the
19 topics that we should not answer. 19 document that you can point me to that
20 MR. CYMROT: All right. 20 suggests he's convicted?
21 Q. So do you have any basis for saying 21 A. I'm not a lawyer.
22 that Mr. Magnitsky is convicted of anything? 22 Q. Well, you read English, right?
23 A. Yes. 23 A. I do read English, but I'm not a
24 Q. What's that? 24 specialist on Russian law and Russian proc- --
25 A. Advice from my lawyers. 25 criminal procedure.
28 (Pages 106 to 109)
Page 110 Page 111
2 Q. So based upon what you've read 2 wrong?
3 here, you might question what your lawyers 3 A. I get lots of things wrong.
4 told you then? 4 Q. Okay. Good. It seems like you
5 A. Without a full analysis, I wouldn't 5 might have gotten this wrong.
6 be able to make a judgment on this document. 6 When you told people
7 Q. I see. But you would agree this is 7 Mr. Magnitsky's a lawyer, did you also tell
8 the conviction? This is your conviction? 8 them he never went to law school and never had
9 A. Apparently so. 9 a law license?
10 Q. Right. And it says what it says, 10 A. I'm sorry. I . . .
11 so we'll let the judge or jury decide whether 11 Q. When you tell -- how many times
12 Mr. Magnitsky was ever convicted of anything, 12 have you said, "Mr. Magnitsky is a lawyer"?
13 right? 13 A. I don't know.
14 A. I'm sorry? 14 Q. 50? 100? 200?
15 Q. We'll allow the judge and jury to 15 A. I don't know.
16 decide whether Mr. Con- -- Mr. Magnitsky was 16 Q. Many, many times, right?
17 convicted of anything or whether you got it 17 A. Yes.
18 wrong. 18 Q. Have you ever told anybody that he
19 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 19 didn't go to law school and didn't have a law
20 A. What -- what -- so is there a 20 degree?
21 question? 21 A. No.
22 Q. Perhaps you got -- perhaps you got 22 Q. Did you tell them that he was
23 it wrong. Can you consider that? 23 working for you for many years and he was
24 A. I don't think I got it wrong. 24 working capa- -- in capacities other than
25 Q. You think you ever get anything 25 legal?
Page 112 Page 113
2 A. Yes. 2 documents and seals, for Rilend, Parfenion,
3 Q. Did you tell these gentlemen over 3 and that Makhaon."
4 here that? 4 You see that?
5 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes.
6 MR. CYMROT: And I was pointing 6 Q. And then paragraph 26 says,
7 Mr. Monteleoni. 7 "Unbeknownst to Hermitage or HSBC Guernsey,
8 Q. All right. Let's go to the 8 members of the organization used the seized
9 Complaint. 9 corporate documents and seals to fraudulently
10 A. Which one? Our Complaint to the 10 reregister ownership of Rilend, Parfenion, and
11 govern -- to the government or the 11 Ma- -- Makhaon with the Russian corporate
12 government's Complaint? 12 registry." Right?
13 Q. The government's Complaint, which I 13 Did I read that right?
14 think is Exhibit 2, right? 14 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. And then on pa- -- on paragraph 29,
16 Q. All right. All right. Take a look 16 it says, "On information and belief, the
17 at paragraph 25. 17 members of the organization have had stolen
18 So I'll read it. Paragraph 25, 18 the corporate identities of Hermitage
19 Exhibit 2, the Complaint: 19 companies, used the seized corporate documents
20 "Among the items seized in the 20 and seals to forge backdated contracts with
21 search of Hermitage and Firestone Duncan's 21 sham commercial counterparts for use in sham
22 offices were the corporate stamps, the 22 lawsuits against the Hermitage companies."
23 official charters, the original tax 23 Right?
24 certificates, and the original registration 24 A. Yes.
25 certificates, which are defined as corporate 25 Q. So, in other words, this is what
29 (Pages 110 to 113)
Page 114 Page 115
2 you told the U.S. Attorney's Office, right? 2 Q. Right.
3 A. Yes. 3 A. And those documents, all those
4 Q. And as you describe it, then, the 4 documents -- some or all of those documents
5 raid -- through the raid, the Ministry of 5 were used in the fraud.
6 Interior got the seals, correct? 6 Q. And one of the things that you've
7 A. Yes. 7 said is the seals were used in the fraud,
8 Q. The June 2007 raid, the Ministry of 8 right?
9 the Interior got the seals? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. Yes. 10 Q. The seals that were seized by the
11 Q. And then those seals were the same 11 Ministry of Interior were used in the fraud.
12 seals used to transfer the three Hermitage 12 You said it repeatedly, right?
13 companies, Parfenion, Rilend, and Makhaon, 13 A. I've said the stamps, seals, and
14 right? 14 certificates were used in the frauds.
15 A. No. Go back to the -- if you go 15 Q. But you said the seals were used in
16 back to the -- what you read, let's just read 16 the fraud, correct?
17 it again. 17 A. Correct.
18 "25. Among the items seized in the 18 Q. But you've known for many years
19 search for Hermitage and Firestone's offices 19 that there are -- that there is an analysis
20 were the corporate stamps, the original 20 that shows the same seals were not used in the
21 charters, the original tax certificates, the 21 fraud. Isn't that true?
22 original registration certificates, quote, 22 A. No.
23 corporate documents and seals for Rilend, 23 Q. You're not aware of that?
24 Parfenion, and Makhaon." That's -- that's 24 A. No.
25 what I said. 25 Q. Never heard that?
Page 116 Page 117
2 A. Vaguely. Never the criminals using 2 Q. Mr. Browder, let me first ask you
3 that argument. 3 that Mr. Kleiner never told you that he was
4 Q. Really? What criminals? 4 aware of a forensic analysis showing that the
5 A. Members of the Interior Ministry. 5 same seals were not used.
6 Q. Have used that argument? 6 A. Correct.
7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is that your testimony?
8 Q. Mr. Kleiner never informed you that 8 A. Correct.
9 there was a forensic analysis that showed the 9 Q. I have materials that are unsealed
10 same seals were not used? 10 that I want to examine you about that I can't,
11 A. No. 11 and I'm going to seek to have the Court unseal
12 MR. CYMROT: I need to talk to you 12 those. And I'll proceed with my examination
13 out -- outside. 13 at this point.
14 MR. KIM: Okay. Right now? 14 MR. KIM: Okay. At least our
15 MR. CYMROT: We need a -- 15 position is that the witness has
16 MR. KIM: We need a break? 16 already testified to what he knows,
17 MR. CYMROT: Yes. Right now. 17 and so such documents would not be
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is -- 18 relevant. And if you want to ask
19 the time is 11:47 a.m. We are off the 19 other questions about the witness'
20 record. 20 knowledge, you're welcome to.
21 (Whereupon, an off-the-record 21 MR. CYMROT: Well, it may refresh
22 discussion was held.) 22 his recollection or other things. In
23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 23 any case, we'll argue about it when
24 11:53 a.m. We are back on the record. 24 the witness is not here and we're not
25 BY MR. CYMROT: 25 wasting his time.
30 (Pages 114 to 117)
Page 118 Page 119
2 MR. KIM: Yes. 2 government's story.
3 BY MR. CYMROT: 3 Q. You -- oh, it's the government's
4 Q. All right. So, Mr. Browder, it is 4 story and you don't support it?
5 the seals and these other corporate documents, 5 A. No. The government is making the
6 according to this Complaint, that ties the 6 case.
7 Ministry of Interior into the scheme to 7 Q. I know, but the government --
8 defraud. Isn't that true? 8 A. I'm -- I'm -- I'm just here to --
9 A. Correct. 9 you know. Let -- let me --
10 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 10 Q. No, let's stick with that point for
11 Q. And it's the only thing that ties 11 a minute, Mr. Browder. This is the
12 the Ministry of Interior into the scheme to 12 government's case, and I thought you told me
13 steal $230 million? 13 that you read this and everything that you
14 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 14 knew about was accurate?
15 A. Incorrect. 15 A. I told you that everything that I
16 Q. What else is it? 16 was familiar with in this Complaint was
17 A. Many other things that are listed 17 accurate.
18 in the Complaint. 18 Q. And the $230 million theft from the
19 Q. Well, show me something, because 19 Russian tref- -- treasury, that's a story that
20 it's the only thing I can find. 20 came from you, and you've told to several law
21 A. Okay. Why don't we look -- first 21 enforcement agencies, correct?
22 of all, I'm not a lawyer here, but let me -- 22 A. Correct.
23 let me try to make the government -- 23 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
24 Q. Well, it's your story? 24 Q. And you started a proceeding in
25 A. Well, let me -- no, it's the 25 Switzerland based upon that story, right?
Page 120 Page 121
2 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 2 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
3 A. Correct. 3 A. I -- I don't understand the
4 Q. And the seals were part of your 4 question.
5 story from the very beginning, right? 5 Q. Very simple. What ties the two
6 A. The stamps, seals -- 6 events together, the $230 million fraud and
7 Q. And other -- 7 the criminal investigation of you, are these
8 A. -- certificates -- 8 corporate documents and seals that are alleged
9 Q. -- other -- 9 here to be the same used -- taken from
10 A. -- and original items of 10 Hermitage in the search and used in the
11 incorporation and also other documents seized 11 $230 million fraud, correct?
12 from during the raid were part of the fraud. 12 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
13 I don't know how the -- exactly how 13 A. I -- I'm -- I'm still having a
14 the -- the tactics were used to execute the 14 tr- -- hard time following you.
15 fraud, but I know many of these documents were 15 Q. I just read you three paragraphs --
16 used in the fraud. 16 A. Right.
17 Q. All right. And you're saying 17 Q. -- that say the corporate documents
18 they're the same documents and that's what 18 and seals were seized by the Ministry of
19 ties the criminal investigation of you into 19 Interior in the search in June of 2007, and
20 the $230 million fraud, correct? 20 then those same documents and seals were used
21 A. Yes. 21 to commitment the $230 million fraud, right?
22 Q. And so if it wasn't the same 22 A. We -- yes.
23 documents, then the criminal investigation of 23 Q. We just went through that.
24 you is not tied into the $230 million fraud, 24 A. Yes.
25 correct? 25 Q. Okay. And that is the link between
31 (Pages 118 to 121)
Page 122 Page 123
2 the Ministry of Interior and the investigation 2 A. Yes. Give me a moment to find the
3 of you and the $230 million fraud. 3 relevant paragraph.
4 If the $230 million fraud were done 4 Q. Go ahead.
5 with other documents, there is no tie between 5 A. Paragraph 22: "On information and
6 the $230 million fraud and the criminal 6 belief" --
7 investigation of you; isn't that correct? 7 Should I read it out loud?
8 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 8 Q. Go ahead.
9 A. No, no. 9 A. "-- the $230 million fraud scheme
10 Q. Why not? 10 began on or about 28 April 2007 when key
11 A. Your mischaracterizing the whole -- 11 members of the organization flew to Larnaca,
12 your simplifying and mischaracterizing the -- 12 Cyprus, to plan the crime. On that date,
13 the whole story. 13 Artem Kuznetsov -- who was one of the Interior
14 Q. Well, I'm just going on the facts 14 Ministry officers, and he was investigating
15 in the Complaint. The facts in the Complaint 15 us -- "and a lieutenant colonel in the Russian
16 are as we read them. 16 Interior Ministry flew with Dmitry Klyuev, a
17 A. You read them selectively without 17 convicted fraudster, the owner of universe --
18 reading other factual -- 18 Universal Savings Bank and, on information and
19 MR. KIM: I don't think there's a 19 belief, the mastermind of the organization,
20 question pending. I'm starting to 20 from Moscow to Larnaca on a private jet.
21 watch a debate. So maybe you can ask 21 "On information and belief, they
22 a question. 22 were met in Larnaca two days later by Pavel
23 Q. Is there any other tie other than 23 Karpov, then a major in Russia's Interior
24 those documents between the $230 million fraud 24 Ministry, as well as two lawyers, Andrey
25 and the Ministry of Interior? 25 Pavlov and his wife, Yulia Mayorova, all of
Page 124 Page 125
2 whom flew together from Moscow on Aeroflot 2 approximately 25 officers in the search of the
3 SU 487. 3 offices of Firestone Duncan, a law firm that
4 "Pavlov had known Klyuev since 2001 4 advises Hermitage -- HSBC Guernsey and
5 and provided him with legal services from time 5 Hermitage."
6 to time. 6 Let me skip to other relevant parts
7 "On May 5th and May 6th, 2007, 7 of this whole thing.
8 Interior Ministry officers Kuznetsov and 8 Paragraph 31:
9 Karpov and the lawyers Pavlov and Mayorova 9 "The forged contracts contained
10 returned to Moscow. 10 multiple suspicious features. The contracts
11 "On May 8th, 2007, the convicted 11 between Lotus+ and the Hermitage companies
12 fraudster Klyuev was met in Larnaca by Olga 12 purported to require prior Lotus+, a company
13 Stepanova, the head of Moscow Tax Office 13 with a total capital at the time of U.S. $300
14 No. 28, and her then-husband Vladlen Stepanov 14 to pay Hermitage companies approximately U.S.
15 flew to Larnaca together on Aeroflot SU 237. 15 500 million to buy securities.
16 "Subsequently, Klyuev, Stepanova, 16 "Additionally, the forged contracts
17 and Stepanov returned to Moscow. 17 included extensive confidential information
18 "Approximately one month later, on 18 about the Hermitage companies, including bank
19 or about June 4th, Kuznetsov led approximately 19 account information, information on assets and
20 25 officers in a search of Hermitage's office 20 holdings, custodian banks, and addresses of
21 in Moscow. The officers removed Hermitage's 21 registration and incorporation of the
22 computer server, virtually all of its 22 Hermitage companies.
23 computers, and dozens of boxes of confidential 23 "Such information was confidential,
24 documents and records. 24 but was contained in the records that had been
25 "Later that day, Kuznetsov joined 25 seized from the Hermitage and Firestone Duncan
32 (Pages 122 to 125)
Page 126 Page 127
2 on or about June 4, 2007. 2 right?
3 "Moreover, although referencing 3 A. I don't recall who -- who told me
4 confidential information, the contracts 4 that.
5 contained various mistakes and inaccuracies, 5 Q. So this an anonymous, unnamed
6 including referencing bank accounts that had 6 person who told you it was closed in 2005
7 not been opened and using addresses that were 7 can't be checked, can't be proven. Right?
8 incorrect at the relevant time." 8 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
9 I could study this more carefully 9 Q. The investigation started in 2004.
10 to find other links. 10 You acknowledge that. So let's go to
11 Q. All right. Well, let's go with 11 Mr. Kuznetsov -- Kuznetsov and Mr. Pavlov.
12 what you said. 12 They are investigators in the Ministry of
13 So, first of all, the investigation 13 Interior, correct?
14 of you started in 2004 not in 2007, right? 14 A. Incorrect.
15 A. The investigation started in 2004 15 Q. What are they?
16 and closed in 2005. 16 A. Kuznetsov is. Pavlov is a
17 Q. According to some anonymous, 17 criminal.
18 unnamed person, right? 18 Q. I'm sorry. Karpov. I misspoke.
19 A. Wrong. Accorded -- according to my 19 Pavlov is a lawyer, right?
20 knowledge. 20 A. He was a member of the criminal
21 Q. And your knowledge comes from an 21 enterprise.
22 anonymous, unnamed person who you won't tell 22 Q. Exactly. I misspoke. Mr. Karpov.
23 us who it is because you can't remember, 23 They're both investigators, right?
24 right? 24 A. One is a field operative and the
25 That's what you told us before, 25 other is a investigator.
Page 128 Page 129
2 Q. Right. As you've told us, there 2 A. I don't know.
3 are a lot of Cyprus corporations, right, 3 Q. You don't know?
4 that -- for people investing in Russia? 4 A. No.
5 A. Correct. 5 Q. It's not you're not going to tell
6 Q. They have good reason to be in 6 us; you don't know?
7 Cyprus, correct? 7 A. I don't know.
8 A. Um-hum. 8 Q. This is another mysterious, unnamed
9 Q. So -- that was a yes? 9 person, right? Another mysterious, unnamed
10 A. Yes. 10 person gives you documents?
11 Q. All right. So what witness is 11 A. I -- I would describe this person
12 going to testify to the fact that 12 as a whistle-blower who gave us documents.
13 Mr. Kuznetsov went to Cyprus with Mr. Klyuev? 13 Q. I see. But that's just a label.
14 A. What witness is going to testify? 14 We don't know the name, we don't know the
15 Q. Yes. What witness? 15 address, we don't know who it is, and we don't
16 A. I'm -- I'm not sure. 16 know where he got documents and we don't
17 Q. All right. So how do you know 17 whether the documents are real, right?
18 Mr. Kuznetsov went with Mr. Klyuev? 18 A. I don't know.
19 A. I've seen copy's of travel records 19 Q. Any of that?
20 where they were on the same flight. 20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. And where did you get those travel 21 Q. But you relied upon it?
22 records? 22 A. My team did.
23 A. We got them from an anonymous 23 Q. And you ultimately went to the U.S.
24 source in Moscow. 24 Attorney's Office and said, "This happened"?
25 Q. And who's your anonymous source? 25 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
33 (Pages 126 to 129)
Page 130 Page 131
2 Q. Right? 2 officer going to Cyprus on the private jet
3 A. I provided this Complaint to the 3 of -- of a -- a convicted fraudster who he was
4 U.S. Attorney's Office. 4 involved in convicting -- or who he -- who he
5 Q. With this information, where you 5 was investigating then and he was involved in
6 don't know the name of the person who gave you 6 convicting in a previous criminal case.
7 the information, you don't know where he got 7 Q. But that connection comes from an
8 the information, you don't know if -- whether 8 anonymous source, from documents that you
9 it's real, and you don't know whether in -- 9 don't know what they are, you don't know
10 these eventually happened, right? 10 whether they're real, and you don't know
11 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 11 whether somebody was setting you up, right?
12 A. Um-hum. I trusted my team, who did 12 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
13 the analysis of the information and concluded 13 A. I trusted my team to -- to -- to
14 that it was credible. 14 verify the credibility of those documents.
15 Q. And do you know how they concluded 15 Q. And you haven't given us those
16 it was credible? 16 documents, right?
17 A. No. 17 A. I think I --
18 Q. So what we have is a story about 18 Q. Once again.
19 people going to Cyprus where Interior Ministry 19 A. No, no. Those documents I think I
20 officers would logically go to conduct an 20 have. They're in public domain. Those
21 investigation, different kinds of 21 documents are on the Russian Untouchables
22 investigations, correct? 22 website, and I think you have them.
23 A. No. 23 Q. And that's your website?
24 Q. Why not? 24 A. You -- you have the -- you have the
25 A. We have an Interior Ministry 25 documents from our website, yes.
Page 132 Page 133
2 Q. Okay. So we have, then, a meeting, 2 the source was?
3 you say, of a tax official. 3 A. No.
4 MR. KIM: Objection to form. To 4 Q. Have you introduced this source to
5 the "you say." 5 the U.S. Attorney's Office?
6 MR. CYMROT: Im sorry. Correct. 6 A. I'm not aware if they have or have
7 Q. The Complaint says that on May 8, 7 not.
8 2007, Mr. Klyuev met with Ms. Olga 8 Q. Um-hum. So what we have that we
9 Stepanov- -- nova -- Stepanova. 9 can put our hands on are the seals and the
10 And how do you know that? 10 other documents that we used in the fraud,
11 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 11 right?
12 A. How do I know that? 12 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
13 Q. Yes. How do you know that? You 13 Q. You don't know what was said in
14 told the U.S. attorney this, right? 14 these meetings, right?
16 Q. Who told the U.S. -- U.S. attorney 16 Q. These alleged meetings?
17 this? 17 A. No.
18 A. We provided information about the 18 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
19 travel records of these individuals to the 19 Q. You have no idea what was said in
20 U.S. attorney. 20 these alleged meetings?
21 Q. From an anonymous source of unknown 21 A. No.
22 authenticity, right? 22 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
23 A. From a source that my team believed 23 Q. You don't know if it had to do with
24 to be credible. 24 an investigation of Mr. Klyuev, right?
25 Q. Um-hum. And you have no idea who 25 A. I'm -- I'm sorry. What's the
34 (Pages 130 to 133)
Page 134 Page 135
2 question? 2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Do you know whether these alleged 3 Q. You like reading it?
4 meetings involved an investigation of 4 A. I don't -- I don't care.
5 Mr. Klyuev? 5 Q. I mean, if it makes you feel
6 A. I wasn't at the meetings. 6 better, you can read it, but I don't think
7 Q. You don't know from a -- another 7 your -- anybody's forgotten what you read.
8 anonymous source? 8 A. Okay.
9 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 9 Q. That there was some information,
10 A. There is -- there are no anonymous 10 but it was incorrect information, right?
11 sources about the actual contents of the 11 A. No.
12 meetings. 12 Q. That's what you read.
13 Q. So you don't know if it involved 13 A. No, I didn't.
14 the $230 million fraud? 14 Q. You said there were bank accounts
15 A. I don't know. 15 that weren't opened and things like that,
16 Q. The only thing we know that 16 right?
17 definitely involved the $230 million fraud 17 A. I'd be --
18 were the corporate documents and seals? 18 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
19 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 19 A. I'd be happy to read it again if --
20 A. No. There was also the -- I just 20 if you don't un- -- understand what was
21 read it to you. Should I read it again? 21 writ- -- written there.
22 Q. Well, you said -- 22 Q. I understand it, believe me.
23 A. I can read it again. It's no 23 By the way, how do you know they
24 problem. 24 even met in -- in Larnaca?
25 Q. I think we all remember. 25 We can go back to that.
Page 136 Page 137
2 How do you -- how do you know 2 MR. CYMROT: Yes.
3 Mr. Kuznetsov and Mr. Klyuev or Mr. Pavlov and 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
4 Mr. -- and Yulia Mayorova met in Larnaca? 4 12:11 p.m. We are off the record.
5 A. What we do know is that Klyuev and 5 (Whereupon, at this time, a short
6 Kuznetsov traveled on the same flight. 6 break was taken.)
7 Q. That's all you know? 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
8 A. To -- to Larnaca. 8 12:13 p.m. We are back on the record.
9 Q. Right. All you know is these 9 BY MR. CYMROT:
10 people flew on the same flight? 10 Q. All right. Mr. Browder, according
11 A. On the same private jet that 11 to paragraph 22, Mr. Kuznetsov -- Kuznetsov
12 belonged to -- 12 and Mr. Klyuev flew on a private jet. That's
13 Q. No, not as to Mr. Pavlov and the 13 what it says, right?
14 others. They flew on an Aeroflot flight. 14 A. Correct.
15 A. Right. 15 Q. Did you ever say they travelled on
16 Q. They happened to be on the same 16 an Aeroflot flight?
17 plane. 17 THE REPORTER: Excuse me?
18 A. Could be. 18 Q. Did you ever say they flew on an
19 MR. KIM: Mark, if there's no 19 Aeroflot flight?
20 question pending, I'd like to just 20 A. I don't remember.
21 take two minutes to advise Mr. Browder 21 Q. It's possible you said that?
22 about something. 22 A. I don't know.
23 MR. CYMROT: Yes. 23 Q. So going back to your
24 MR. KIM: There's no question 24 investigation, are you saying there was no
25 pending. 25 investigation of you in 2006?
35 (Pages 134 to 137)
Page 138 Page 139
2 A. Well, we received a document from 2 A. Um-hum.
3 the Russian authorities saying that there are 3 Q. You see it's -- there's a witness,
4 no criminal investigations in 2006. 4 Mr. Magnitsky?
5 Q. Now, let me show you testimony of 5 A. Yes.
6 Mr. Magnitsky in -- in 2006. 6 Q. Do you see on the next page he's
7 MR. CYMROT: What number are we up 7 being asked about Saturn Investments?
8 to? What number are we on? 8 A. Yes.
9 (Browder Exhibit 11, document 9 Q. And about you and Mr. Shaashoua?
10 Bates stamped BrowderDepo0000685 10 Do you see that?
11 through '690 was marked for 11 A. Um-hum.
12 identification, as of this date.) 12 Q. Same subject matter of -- that we
13 BY MR. CYMROT: 13 went over from the Kalmykian civil court,
14 Q. So this is a record of evidence, 14 right?
15 October 18, 2006. It's an examination of 15 A. I'm not sure if it's the same or
16 Mr. Magnitsky. 16 not.
17 Is that what it appears to be? 17 Q. Well, it's about Saturn, and he's
18 A. I don't know. 18 asking about Mr. S- -- Shaashoua, and he's
19 Q. Well, take your time to look at it. 19 asking about power of attorney dated
20 A. Okay. 20 February 10, 2005, and about him being the
21 (Whereupon, an off-the-record 21 general director of Saturn Investments at that
22 discussion was held.) 22 point.
23 BY MR. CYMROT: 23 Do you see that?
24 Q. Okay. So let me help you. You see 24 A. Um-hum.
25 the top, October 18, 2006? 25 Q. Yes?
Page 140 Page 141
2 A. Yes. 2 Q. It's questioning Mr. Magnitsky?
3 Q. Okay. So there was an 3 A. Correct.
4 investigation in 2006 going on of the same 4 Q. Did you know about that at the
5 events that we went over with the civil case, 5 time?
6 right? 6 A. No.
7 A. I'm not sure if they're the same 7 Q. You had no idea about this in this
8 events. 8 2006?
9 Q. All right. There was an 9 A. No.
10 investigation of how Hermitage Fund operated 10 Q. So maybe you were just wrong that
11 Saturn, and the investigation was going fourth 11 the investigation didn't exist in 2006?
12 in 2006, correct? 12 A. Or maybe the other information that
13 A. I'm not sure that's what this says. 13 I got is correct.
14 Q. What does it say in your view? 14 Q. But somehow they were still
15 A. I'm not a lawyer. 15 examining Mr. Magnitsky in 2006?
16 Q. Well, you can read it, though. 16 You think the two are consistent?
17 A. I'm not a Russian lawyer, and I 17 A. I don't understand the question.
18 don't know the significance of this document. 18 Q. They were -- they were questioning
19 Q. It's only three pages. It's in 19 about a closed investigation?
20 English. 20 A. They weren't questioning me.
21 "Investigator For Particularly 21 Q. As far as you know, Mr. Magnitsky
22 Important Cases of Tax Crimes Investigation 22 was being questioned on an investigation of
23 Department." 23 Saturn in 2006, right?
24 That's what it says, right? 24 A. I don't know that.
25 A. Um-hum. 25 Q. Well, that's what this document
36 (Pages 138 to 141)
Page 142 Page 143
2 shows you. This is -- 2 on a labor contract at CJSC Firestone Duncan
3 A. I don't know -- I don't -- I don't 3 as an auditor."
4 know anything about -- 4 That's his answer, right?
5 Q. -- what it purports to be. 5 A. Um-hum.
6 A. I don't know anything about the 6 Q. Yes?
7 providence of this document or the 7 A. Yes.
8 significance of this document, and I have not 8 Q. You still say he's a lawyer?
9 taken any advice on what this means; so it 9 A. Yes.
10 would be inappropriate -- 10 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Magnitsky's
11 Q. So you're not going to venture an 11 signature?
12 opinion on it? 12 A. I probably have, but I...
13 A. I would -- it would be 13 Q. Well, let me show you the last
14 inappropriate as a layman to venture an 14 page, two -- three signatures and then one
15 opinion on what this says. 15 different one at the bottom. Three
16 Q. And you're sticking to your view 16 signatures. That look like Mr. Magnitsky's
17 that the investigation closed in 2005 even 17 signature?
18 though we have this document? 18 A. I don't know.
19 A. Yes. 19 Q. How many times have you seen
20 Q. Okay. By the way, if you look in 20 Mr. Magnitsky's signature?
21 the middle of the page, the investigator's 21 A. Zero.
22 question: 22 Q. It says here, paragraph 25, second
23 "Where do you currently work? The 23 sentence: "In denying requests from Hermitage
24 post? 24 to return the corporate documents and seals,
25 "ANSWER: At the moment I'm working 25 the Russian Interior Ministry subsequently
Page 144 Page 145
2 confirmed that these documents and seals, 2 Mr. Karpov offered to return the seals and
3 which were seized in the search lead by 3 that your colleagues turned them down?
4 Kuznetsov, remained in the custody of his 4 A. Perhaps, but...
5 colleague Karpov." 5 Q. And this is a man who you're saying
6 Do you see that? 6 used those seals to commit a massive fraud?
7 A. I do. 7 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
8 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Browder, that 8 A. Yes, I'm saying that.
9 Mr. Karpov offered to return the documents and 9 Q. And --
10 seals and Mr. Kleiner and Mr. Chinesco 10 A. But I -- no, I'm not -- I'm not
11 [phonetic] -- Kuznetsov told him to keep them 11 saying that. I'm saying that he -- he used
12 until the end of the investigation? 12 the seals, the stamps, the certificates of
13 A. I don't know. 13 incorporation, and the other document -- that
14 Q. You've never heard that? 14 whole paragraph that I read to you, along with
15 A. Vaguely, but I don't know the 15 a group of coconspirators to commitment the
16 details. 16 fraud.
17 Q. Vaguely? What have you heard 17 Q. Did you tell the U.S. Attorney's
18 vaguely? 18 Office that Mr. Karpov had offered to return
19 A. I don't -- I mean, I've -- I -- 19 the seals and other documents?
20 I vaguely recall some conversation of that 20 A. Well, since I'm not acutely aware
21 nature, but I don't know the details. 21 of it, I didn't.
22 Q. With whom? Mr. Kleiner? 22 Q. Somebody else told you -- you said
23 A. I don't even know with whom, at 23 that somebody told you that Mr. Karpov offered
24 what point, when. 24 to return the seals and your colleagues turned
25 Q. So that somebody told you that 25 them down.
37 (Pages 142 to 145)
Page 146 Page 147
2 MR. KIM: Objection. 2 Q. I'm going to direct your attention
3 Characterization. 3 to page '727. It's the Bates number on the
4 Q. Did you tell the U.S. Attorney's 4 right -- lower right-hand side.
5 Office that Mr. Kaffov -- Karpov had offered 5 So I'm going to direct your
6 to return the seals? 6 attention specifically to what I think is the
7 A. No. 7 fourth paragraph. Starts "in November and
8 Q. All right. 8 December 2007" and says the following:
9 (Whereupon, an off-the-record 9 "In November and December 2007, a
10 discussion was held.) 10 representative of Firestone Duncan Limited,
11 MR. CYMROT: All right. So -- 11 V.Y. Yelin, visited the investigator,
12 yes. Okay. I'm marking as Exhibit 12 12 P.A. Karpov, a few times to retrieve from
13 the record of evidence, June 5, 2008, 13 Karpov documents and seals impounded during
14 of Mr. Magnitsky. And it says Bates 14 the search on the 4th of June 2007."
15 number -- it starts at 721. 15 "From what V.Y. Yelin said, I'm
16 (Browder Exhibit 12, document 16 aware that P.A. Karpov was also ready to give
17 Bates stamped BrowderDepo0000721 17 out documents and seals of Parfenion Limited
18 through '742 was marked for 18 Liability Company, Rilend Limited Liability
19 identification, as of this date.) 19 Company, and Makhaon Limited Liability
20 BY MR. CYMROT: 20 Company; however, V.G. Kleiner and
21 Q. All right. I'm going to direct 21 I.S. Cherkasov requested the seals from Karpov
22 your attention to page '727. 22 be not retrieved unless criminal proceedings
23 First of all, Mr. Browder, have you 23 are instituted to investigate into illegal
24 ever seen this document before? 24 re-registration of the companies and lawsuits
25 A. No. 25 based on forged evidence and powers of
Page 148 Page 149
2 attorney, and the documents be received solely 2 You said you worked with reporters.
3 in accordance with the detailed inventory 3 Did you give out information to reporters?
4 spef- -- specifying each document transfer. 4 A. Could you be more specific?
5 "As a result, those seals and 5 Q. Well, for instance, the information
6 documents would stay with P.A. Karpov." 6 you got that the Swiss prosecutor said you
7 Do you see that? It goes on. 7 could give to the United States. Did you give
8 A. Yes. 8 it to reporters?
9 Q. Is this the first time -- it's not 9 A. No.
10 the first time you've heard this, right? 10 Q. You knew you shouldn't give it to
11 You've told us somebody told you 11 reporters?
12 that. 12 A. I don't know whether I should or
13 A. It's the first time I've read this 13 shouldn't have, but I didn't.
14 document. 14 Q. Did you post any of it on your
15 Q. It's not the first time you've 15 website?
16 heard that Karpov offered to return the seals 16 A. No. We posted our Complaint on the
17 and your colleagues turned him down, right? 17 website.
18 A. No. Correct. 18 Q. Did you -- is any of the
19 Q. Okay. And you never told the U.S. 19 information in Exhibit 1, which was the letter
20 Attorney's Office. We've established that, 20 to the Manhattan D.A. -- was that from the
21 right? 21 Swiss prosecutor?
22 A. I never told the U.S. Attorney's 22 A. I don't know.
23 Office, correct. 23 Q. So the Cyprus companies that own
24 Q. Let me go back to a couple points 24 Satin -- Saturn and Dalnaya Step were Kone and
25 we handled before. 25 Glendora. You're not aware of that?
38 (Pages 146 to 149)
Page 150 Page 151
2 A. I don't know the names of the 2 but it probably came from professional
3 companies. 3 accountants and lawyers.
4 Q. All right. So who controlled those 4 Q. That you directed to HSBC Guernsey?
5 companies, The Cyprus Companies? 5 A. No.
6 A. The manager of the fund, HSBC 6 Q. So your role as advisor didn't
7 Management Guernsey. 7 include the tax structure in Kalmykia?
8 Q. And who gave the manager of the 8 A. My role as advisor -- as advisor
9 fund instructions? 9 was focused on picking stocks, doing company
10 A. They took decisions on their own. 10 analysis and doing corporate governance
11 Q. Investment decisions? 11 activism. I wasn't a specialist in taxes and
12 A. They took investment decisions and 12 other such things.
13 structural decisions. 13 Q. All right. So that HSBC Guernsey
14 Q. So it wasn't Hermitage Fund that 14 didn't decide what stocks that these companies
15 set up Saturn and Dalnaya Step to take 15 would be investing in, right?
16 advantage of the tax regime in Kalmykia, it 16 A. So I provided the investment advice
17 was HSBC on their own? 17 to the manager.
18 A. No, HSBC was the manager of the 18 Q. Right. And they followed your
19 Hermitage Fund. The Hermitage Fund didn't 19 advice?
20 take a decision. It's a -- it's a 20 A. Sometimes, mostly.
21 corporate -- 21 Q. So HSBC Guernsey is a trustee,
22 Q. I understand. And you're the 22 correct?
23 advisor? 23 A. No, HSBC Trust Guer- -- HSBC Trust
24 A. Right. So the advice probab- -- 24 Company is the trustee. HSBC Management
25 most likely came from -- I don't know exactly, 25 Guernsey is the investment manager.
Page 152 Page 153
2 Q. So HSBC Trust Guernsey -- is that 2 trust that also owned Parfenion, Rilend
3 what you said it was? 3 Makhaon?
4 A. Is the trustee. 4 A. No, HSBC didn't set up a trust.
5 Q. "Is the trustee." 5 HSBC --
6 And they -- and the trustee 6 Q. Was the trustee of a trust?
7 actually has the ownership of the two Cyprus 7 A. -- was the trustee that owned --
8 companies, which are Glendora and Kone? 8 owned Cyprus Companies. And I can't remember
9 A. The unit trust of which they're the 9 who the holding companies were who -- who set
10 trustee has the -- 10 up those companies.
11 Q. They're the trust entity? 11 Q. Okay. So the trust owns Cyprus
12 A. No, they're the trustee of a unit 12 Companies, which then owned the Russian
13 trust. 13 companies?
14 Q. Yes. 14 A. Correct.
15 A. The unit trust owns various assets 15 Q. All right. And Parfenion, and
16 directly and through other vehicles. 16 Rilend and Makhaon were the Russian companies?
17 Q. Okay. So the unit trust owned 17 A. Correct.
18 Glendora and Kone, Cyprus companies? 18 Q. And at the time of the $230 million
19 A. Correct. 19 fraud, they had no stock in them?
20 Q. And they owned Saturn and Dalnaya 20 A. Who had no?
21 Step? 21 Q. Parfenion, Rilend and Makhaon?
22 A. Yes. I believe so, I'm not sure if 22 A. Correct.
23 those were the two owners, I don't have that 23 Q. All right. And so the Cyprus
24 in front of me. 24 Companies, when these companies were
25 Q. And HSBC Guernsey Trust set up a 25 reregistered, lost their money because there
39 (Pages 150 to 153)

Page 154 Page 155
2 no assets in the three Russian companies, 2 A. I'm not -- I don't know.
3 correct? 3 Q. So when the companies were
4 A. No. 4 reregistered, was there money removed from the
5 Q. They lost no value, the net worth 5 bank accounts?
6 of Parfenion, Rilend and Makhaon was zero, 6 A. I'm not sure.
7 they had no assets, correct? 7 Q. They wanted the companies; they
8 A. No. 8 weren't interested in 10- or $15,000, right?
9 Q. They had assets? 9 They opened new bank accounts, correct?
10 A. Correct. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What assets did they have? 11 Q. With the reregistered companies?
12 A. They had bank accounts. 12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Which had no money in them? 13 Q. So the 10- or $15,000 was still
14 A. Is that a question? 14 there in the bank accounts, as far as you
15 Q. Yes. 15 know?
16 A. No, they did have money in them. 16 A. I don't know where that -- what
17 Q. How much money did they have? 17 the -- what the status of that 10- or $15,000
18 A. I can't be sure, but I think 10-, 18 was.
19 $15,000. 19 Q. As far as you know, that money was
20 Q. Do you have bank records that show 20 still there and was not taken when the money
21 that? 21 was -- when the banks -- when the companies
22 A. I'm not sure. 22 were reregistered, correct?
23 Q. Have you given any bank records of 23 A. No.
24 Parfenion, Rilend and Makhaon to the U.S. 24 Q. What? Am I wrong or am I right?
25 attorney? 25 A. You're wrong.
Page 156 Page 157
2 Q. You just told me you don't know? 2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Right. And the money belonged to
4 Q. Okay. So the answer is you don't 4 the trust; it didn't belong to HSBC Guernsey,
5 know? 5 correct?
6 A. I don't know. 6 A. It belonged to HSBC Trust Company.
7 Q. All right. So the money might very 7 Q. A trust that the trust company
8 well have been -- still been there, correct? 8 oversee as trustee owns -- owned those assets,
9 A. "Very well" suggests that it's 9 the companies and whatever bank accounts they
10 still there. I don't -- I don't know. 10 have?
11 Q. You don't know either way? 11 A. The trustee owned them as the
12 A. I don't know either way. 12 trustee.
13 Q. As far as you know, that money 13 Q. The trustee was the trustee of a
14 wasn't stolen? You don't know? 14 trust, I think you told me that at the
15 A. I don't know. 15 beginning?
16 Q. Okay. So we've established that; 16 A. Right, but the trustee was the
17 as far as you know, the money wasn't stolen. 17 formal owner of the -- of the assets.
18 In which case The Cyprus Companies 18 Q. All right.
19 didn't lose anything of value? 19 MR. CYMROT: Why don't we take
20 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 20 lunch. Is this a good time?
21 A. I don't know. 21 MR. KIM: Sure, if you want to.
22 Q. Okay. We'll leave it at that. 22 THE WITNESS: Can we go until 1:00
23 Just to complete the chain, as far 23 just to --
24 as you know, the trust didn't lose anything, 24 MR. KIM: If you want. It's
25 right? 25 12:40, if you want to go ten,
40 (Pages 154 to 157)
Page 158 Page 159
2 15 minutes s and then we can break. 2 A. Correct.
3 MR. CYMROT: Sure, I'll do it. 3 Q. Intercommerz, USB, right?
4 BY MR. CYMROT: 4 A. Correct.
5 Q. So going back to Exhibit 1, if you 5 Q. Sberbank? You don't know whether
6 look at Tab 7, there's a chart, correct? 6 it's legal for Mr. Kleiner to have information
7 A. Correct. 7 about these accounts from those banks, right?
8 Q. You've seen this chart before, 8 A. I don't know.
9 right? 9 Q. And then you don't know how he did
10 A. Yes. 10 the tracing?
11 Q. Who created this chart? 11 A. No, I don't know.
12 A. Vadim Kleiner. 12 Q. But you've relied upon it?
13 Q. And do you know what from 13 A. I have.
14 documents -- from what documents he created 14 Q. And you've given it to the U.S.
15 this chart? 15 Attorney's Office, right?
16 A. No. 16 A. I have.
17 Q. And you don't know where he got the 17 Q. And so, for instance --
18 documents that he used to create the chart, 18 A. Actually, no, that's incorrect. I
19 right? 19 gave it to the New York -- the New York
20 A. Right. 20 District Attorney's office.
21 Q. Right? 21 Q. All right. And they gave it to --
22 A. Right. 22 as far as you know, they gave it to the U.S.
23 Q. And you don't know whether in 23 Attorney's Office?
24 Russia -- there are a number of Russian banks 24 A. That's correct.
25 here, correct? 25 Q. Let me go back.
Page 160 Page 161
2 How many times did you meet 2 them?
3 Todd Hyman? 3 A. Yes.
4 A. Several. I can't remember. 4 Q. On -- approximately how many?
5 Q. More than five? 5 A. I don't recall.
6 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Hundred?
7 Q. Is it more than ten? 7 A. I doubt it.
8 A. No. 8 Q. Fifty?
9 Q. Did you talk to him on the 9 A. No.
10 telephone? 10 Q. But you haven't given those -- you
11 A. Yes. 11 have those, right, you have access to those
12 Q. He had your telephone number? 12 e-mails?
13 A. I'm not sure how -- how the 13 A. Yes.
14 telephone connection was made. 14 Q. You haven't given them to us, so I
15 Q. Did you call him or he call you? 15 can't question you about them today.
16 A. I don't remember. 16 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
17 Q. He had your e-mail address? 17 A. Isn't there a --
18 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Just yes or no for now. If they're
19 Q. Do you have his e-mail address? 19 going to claim the privilege, they can --
20 A. I don't know. 20 A. I need to get some advice on -- on
21 Q. Do you have the e-mail address of 21 whether there's a privilege issue here.
22 anybody in the U.S. Attorney's Office? 22 MR. MONTELEONI: Let's take a few
23 A. I know for sure I have 23 moments to discuss.
24 Paul Monteleoni's and Sharon Levin's. 24 MR. CYMROT: All I'm asking is yes
25 Q. And you've exchanged e-mails with 25 or no whether he has the e-mails. I
41 (Pages 158 to 161)
Page 162 Page 163
2 mean, the fact that he hasn't produced 2 the amount of money that you're tracing
3 them we can get into a fight later 3 increases from, in dollars, 33 million to
4 about whether you're going to claim 4 53 million; do you see that?
5 privilege. 5 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
6 And we haven't gotten to privilege 6 Q. So you've got No. 11, 12 million;
7 logs, we haven't gotten any of that. 7 No. 12 -- I'm sorry, No. 11 is in roubles,
8 MR. MONTELEONI: Fair enough, but 8 525, but in dollars the conversion's here,
9 the witness says that he has a concern 9 it's 21 million. Number 12 is 12 million.
10 that he wants to discuss whether or 10 And then you get down to the next
11 not there's something privileged, and 11 level, Krainiy Sever Bank, and you've got
12 we request an opportunity to discuss 12 26 million, 27 million coming out of Krainiy
13 whether or not there's a privilege. 13 Sever Bank; that's 53 million, right?
14 MR. KIM: So if you want to take a 14 A. Right.
15 break now, I guess -- 15 Q. Can you explain to us how you would
16 MR. CYMROT: No, that's -- I mean, 16 trace and know that it was the Russian
17 why don't you guys do it over lunch. 17 Treasury money that was going through Krainiy
18 I'll -- I'll hold the question so that 18 Sever to Bunicon and Elenast and not some
19 we can keep going. 19 unassociated, as far as we know clean money,
20 MR. KIM: Okay. 20 $20 million of clean money; can you explain
21 BY MR. CYMROT: 21 that?
22 Q. All right. So I'm looking at this 22 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
23 chart, which is Exhibit 1, Tab 7, and I see 23 Q. So you have no information about
24 that between the ZhK account at Sberbank and 24 that?
25 the Univers account at Mosstroieconomybank, 25 A. I didn't do the tracing.
Page 164 Page 165
2 Q. So I have to go to Mr. Kleiner for 2 Q. Yes.
3 that? 3 A. What's the question?
4 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 4 Q. How do you explain the $20 million
5 Q. Right. I have to ask the question 5 in apparently clean money going to Bunicon and
6 of Mr. Kleiner? 6 Elenast and the $800,000 coming out and you
7 A. I don't know who -- I don't know 7 say it had to be dirty money that went to
8 who can explain this to you, but I can't. 8 Prevezon?
9 Q. Well, Mr. Kleiner did it, right? 9 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
10 A. He did the analysis, correct. 10 Q. Do you have an explanation?
11 Q. So if I want to understand this 11 A. I didn't do the tracing.
12 chart, shouldn't I be asking Mr. Kleiner? 12 Q. But you had the meeting, you've
13 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 13 been the one going around writing books,
14 A. I don't know. You have to decide 14 touting it, trying to get our client on the
15 in your own team how you want to give your own 15 Magnitsky list, haven't you?
16 explanations. 16 A. No.
17 Q. I'm asking for the name of the 17 Q. You've never tried to put
18 person who can explain it me; how you went to 18 Mr. Katsyv on the Magnitsky list?
19 the U.S. Attorney's Office with a case where 19 A. No.
20 there's $20 million of clean money going into 20 Q. Never talked to anybody about that?
21 accounts and you say it's dirty money that 21 A. Not that I'm aware of.
22 went to our clients. 22 Q. Did you talk to the U.S. attorney
23 MR. KIM: Objection to form; the 23 about that?
24 use of "you." 24 A. No.
25 A. Is there a question? 25 Q. But you did file a lawsuit in
42 (Pages 162 to 165)
Page 166 Page 167
2 New York against Prevezon owned by Mr. Katsyv, 2 Q. We're talking about on this chart
3 right? 3 showing $33 million of supposedly Russian
4 A. I filed a -- I provided to the 4 Treasury money going to Krainiy Sever, the
5 New York District Attorney's office a 5 corresponding account, and coming out
6 Complaint about suspected money laundering in 6 $20 million of -- at least $20 million of
7 New York in which there was -- I asked U.S. 7 clean money, at least, and only $800,000 going
8 Government to investigate. 8 to Prevezon. If there's $20 million of clean
9 Q. So you had no idea what the logic 9 money going into those accounts, normally
10 was for saying that where there's $20 million 10 $800,000 coming out, you have no explanation
11 of identified clean money going through the 11 for why that had to be Russian Treasury money
12 accounts and only $800,000 coming out, that we 12 that went to Prevezon?
13 had to say it was dirty money and Mr. Katsyv 13 A. This is not my area of expertise.
14 got dirty money; you have -- you can't give me 14 Q. I'm asking whether you have any
15 any explanation for that at all? 15 explanation from anybody?
16 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 16 A. I -- I -- I don't have an
17 A. I didn't do the tracing. 17 explanation.
18 Q. So you have no explanation? Yes or 18 Q. Then who would have the explanation
19 no, you have an explanation or you don't? 19 in your organization?
20 A. I didn't do the tracing. 20 A. I think our entire legal team would
21 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 21 have an explanation.
22 Q. Do you have an explanation or not? 22 Q. Mr. Kleiner is the one who did
23 A. Do I have an explanation? 23 this?
24 MR. KIM: Objection to form. I'm 24 A. He was the one who produced the
25 not sure what we're talking about. 25 piece of paper.
Page 168 Page 169
2 Q. Oh, he didn't do the work? 2 And you are the CEO of that
3 A. I think he did it as a member of a 3 company?
4 team. 4 A. Let me correct myself. He is a
5 Q. I see. So you have the same 5 partner at Hermitage Capital LLP.
6 disaffection for testifying that you have? 6 Q. And you're the CEO, right?
7 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 7 A. No.
8 Q. Is that why you're not naming him? 8 Q. Who's the CEO?
9 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 9 A. There's a partnership, there's no
10 A. No. 10 CEO of the partnership.
11 Q. He's willing to come to New York 11 Q. I see. Are you willing to advise
12 and testify? 12 Mr. Kleiner he should come to New York and
13 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 13 testify about this?
14 A. I have no idea what he's willing to 14 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
15 do or not do. 15 A. It's not my place to advise him on
16 Q. He works for you, right? 16 what to do or not do. The lawyers will advise
17 A. No. 17 him on what to do or not do.
18 Q. He works for Hermitage Fund of 18 Q. But you wouldn't tell him to come,
19 which you are the chief executive officer, 19 would you?
20 right? 20 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
21 A. No. 21 A. I wouldn't tell him to come or not
22 Q. Who does he work for? 22 come. It's not my place to tell him. The
23 A. He works for Hermitage Capital LLP. 23 lawyers will advise him on what the -- what
24 Q. Of course. Okay, I keep getting 24 the right --
25 the entities wrong. 25 Q. You're not willing to go back and
43 (Pages 166 to 169)
Page 170 Page 171
2 say, Mr. Kleiner, I put my reputation on the 2 AFTERNOON SESSION
3 fact that $20 million came, went into Bunicon 3
4 and Elenast and $800,000 came out and we're 4 (Time noted: 1:50 p.m.)
5 saying it's dirty money, Hermitage has its 5
6 reputation on this, I recommend you go to 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
7 New York and explain this to these people; you 7 1:50 p.m. We are back on the record.
8 wouldn't say that? 8 MR. KIM: Mr. Cymrot, before you
9 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 9 begin your questioning again -- this
10 A. I would go to our lawyers and ask 10 is Michael Kim -- over the break, as
11 them to advise him on what the right legal 11 we agreed with the Defendants, we
12 position is to take in this case. 12 obtained from the Defendants' counsel
13 Q. So the answer is no, I wouldn't 13 a copy of the sealed document that
14 give him that advice myself? 14 Mr. Cymrot referred to earlier in the
15 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 15 examination, we've shown it to the
16 A. I would go to our lawyers. 16 witness.
17 MR. CYMROT: I think we better 17 And my understanding is, it does
18 stop. 18 not refresh the witness's recollection
19 MR. KIM: Okay. 19 on any of the answers he gave.
20 MR. CYMROT: All right. 20 But since I'm not the witness,
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 21 I'll just ask Mr. Browder to confirm
22 12:50 p.m. We're off the record. 22 that for the record?
23 (Whereupon, at this time, a lunch 23 THE WITNESS: I confirm that for
24 break was taken.) 24 the record.
25 25 MR. KIM: Thank you. Go ahead,
Page 172 Page 173
2 Mr. Cymrot. 2 Interrogatory 1.
3 W I L L I A M F. B R O W D E R, resumed 3 And to summarize it, it says that
4 and testified as follows: 4 tell us what persons have knowledge or
5 EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.) 5 information on certain subjects. And you see
6 MR. CYMROT: 6 your name there, right?
7 Q. Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. Browder. 7 A. Yes.
8 You're still under oath, do you 8 Q. All right. So it says you have
9 know that? 9 knowledge of the $230 million fraud,
10 A. I do. 10 Defendants' knowledge of the $230 million
11 Q. All right. So I'm going to show 11 fraud, which would be the Prevezon Defendants
12 you what we're going to mark as Browder 12 referring to that, membership and operation of
13 Exhibit 13. 13 the organization, Defendants' contacts with
14 (Browder Exhibit 13, Document 14 the organization and Defendants' knowledge of
15 Entitled "Plaintiff's Responses to 15 the organization and the Defendants' intent to
16 Defendants' First Set of 16 knowledge for the purpose of the money
17 Interrogatories" was marked for 17 laundering statutes, the transfers described
18 identification, as of this date.) 18 in the Verified Complaint, additional
19 BY MR. CYMROT: 19 transfers that support the allegations in the
20 Q. This is "Plaintiff's Responses to 20 Verified Complaint, the tracing methodology,
21 Defendants' First Set of Interrogatories." 21 tracing funds from the Russian Treasury to the
22 Basically what this is, is a list of questions 22 Defendants, nature of the businesses operated
23 we gave the Government and they responded. 23 by the Defendants, and other information
24 And I want to direct your attention 24 including information relevant to the gravity
25 to page 4, which is the response to 25 and magnitude of the offense. Do you see
44 (Pages 170 to 173)
Page 174 Page 175
2 that? 2 also been one of the other people in his
3 A. I do. 3 office.
4 Q. All right. So did you talk to the 4 Q. Okay. And was this a telephone
5 Government before -- about this answer before 5 conversation or an e-mail?
6 it was given? And it was given in March -- 6 A. Telephone conversation.
7 24th of March, 2014. Did you talk to the 7 Q. All right. What else was said in
8 Government about this answer before it was 8 that conversation about the trial date?
9 given? 9 A. Just that there was a trial date
10 A. No. 10 coming up.
11 Q. Did they show it to you? 11 Q. Did they ask whether you would
12 A. No. 12 appear as a witness?
13 Q. Did they tell you that -- did they 13 A. I believe so.
14 tell you in February of 2014 the judge had set 14 Q. And what did you tell them?
15 a trial date of March 30th or 31st of 2014; 15 A. Yes.
16 did they tell you that? 16 Q. And did they tell you that they
17 A. Yes. 17 were informing the judge that you were their
18 Q. Who told you that? 18 chief witness?
19 A. I don't recall who, but somebody in 19 A. No.
20 the Government. 20 Q. So did you talk about what you
21 Q. Well, somebody in the U.S. 21 would testify to?
22 Attorney's Office? 22 A. No.
23 A. Yes. 23 Q. Just you would show up and you
24 Q. Was it Mr. Monteleoni? 24 would testify?
25 A. Could have been, but it might have 25 A. Yes.
Page 176 Page 177
2 Q. And that was -- how long was the 2 MR. KIM: Since a party has
3 conversation? 3 claimed privilege we have no position
4 A. Ten minutes. 4 on the matter, but I'll instruct the
5 Q. Approximately when was it? 5 witness not to answer until the
6 A. Sometime around the time period you 6 privilege is resolved.
7 specified. 7 MR. CYMROT: Okay.
8 Q. February of 2014? 8 BY MR. CYMROT:
9 A. Yes, I guess. I mean, I don't 9 Q. So what information did you tell
10 remember the dates, so... 10 the Government that you had about the
11 Q. Did they express concern about the 11 Defendants' knowledge of the $230 million
12 trial date? 12 fraud scheme?
13 MR. MONTELEONI: To the extent 13 A. None.
14 that this question is just calling for 14 Q. What information did you tell the
15 the witness's impressions of the 15 Government about Defendants' contacts with the
16 opinions and mental impressions of 16 organization?
17 counsel for the Government I'm going 17 A. I don't remember.
18 to request that the witness not answer 18 Q. Do you have any information about
19 on the grounds of work product 19 Defendants' contacts with this so-called
20 protection. 20 organization?
21 Q. Are you going to answer? 21 A. Not -- no specific information.
22 A. I'm going to respect the 22 Q. Okay. So to be clear, the
23 Government's request. 23 organization is the organization that is
24 MR. CYMROT: Are you instructing 24 described in the Complaint, the criminal
25 him not to answer? 25 organization that committed the $230 million
45 (Pages 174 to 177)
Page 178 Page 179
2 fraud, right? 2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 A. Right. 3 A. So -- so the -- Edward Hardinov,
4 Q. You understood that? 4 Vladimir Pastukhov.
5 A. Yes. 5 BY MR. CYMROT:
6 Q. Okay. So you have no specific 6 Q. So they have theories; do they have
7 information; do you have any general 7 any facts to support their theories?
8 information about Defendants' contacts with 8 MR. MONTELEONI: I'm going to
9 the organization? 9 request that the witness not answer to
10 A. There was some theories that -- I 10 the extent that any answer might
11 can't remember the details, but there were 11 reveal communications pertaining to
12 some theories about their contact with the 12 ongoing criminal investigations.
13 organization. 13 MR. KIM: And on a separate note,
14 Q. Who had these theories? 14 I'm going to instruct the witness not
15 A. People on my legal team. 15 to answer as to the contents of any of
16 Q. And who are you referring to now? 16 his discussions with lawyers, which
17 A. Lawyers. 17 are attorney-client privileged, which
18 Q. Yeah, what lawyers? 18 I believe your last question would
19 THE WITNESS: Can I ask a 19 invade that territory.
20 privilege -- is this a privilege? 20 So I would instruct the witness
21 MR. KIM: You can say the names of 21 not to reveal the contents of the
22 the lawyers. 22 communications, including as to
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 what -- what, if any, facts they have.
24 MR. KIM: And I think you've 24 MR. CYMROT: Well, Mr.- -- well,
25 previously testified. 25 that raises a whole series of
Page 180 Page 181
2 questions. 2 debating that now. I think there's
3 BY MR. CYMROT: 3 another form to debate that, so
4 Q. What information do you have about 4 continue your questioning.
5 ongoing criminal investigations relating to 5 MR. CYMROT: I'm just reserving
6 the $230 million fraud? 6 our position.
7 MR. MONTELEONI: I'm going to 7 MR. KIM: I understand.
8 request that the witness not answer 8 MR. CYMROT: But I agree with you,
9 any questions about the witness's 9 there's no point in debating that.
10 knowledge of ongoing criminal 10 BY MR. CYMROT:
11 investigations related to the 11 Q. All right. What facts do you have
12 $230 million fraud scheme except to 12 about Defendants' contacts with the
13 the extent that that information is 13 organization?
14 already public. So as to that, he can 14 A. None.
15 answer. 15 Q. What facts do you have about
16 MR. KIM: So we have no position 16 Defendants' knowledge of the organization?
17 on the matter, but since a party is 17 A. No.
18 claiming a privilege, I will give the 18 Q. Do you have anybody in the
19 same instruction to the witness. 19 organization with a theory about Defendants'
20 MR. CYMROT: Okay, just so our 20 knowledge of the organization; yes or no you
21 position's clear, that if these 21 can answer that?
22 privilege claims don't stand up in 22 A. Yes.
23 court, then Mr. Browder will have to 23 Q. And who's that?
24 come back and testify to these things. 24 A. Lawyers.
25 MR. KIM: Well, there's no sense 25 Q. And who are they, just the names?
46 (Pages 178 to 181)
Page 182 Page 183
2 A. Edward Hardinov and 2 matter of what information he
3 Vladimir Pastukhov. 3 possesses.
4 Q. And have they told you what their 4 MR. CYMROT: Then I'll keep asking
5 theories are? 5 questions.
6 MR. KIM: Same objection about 6 BY MR. CYMROT:
7 privilege, the content of 7 Q. So it says the Defendants' intent
8 communications. 8 or knowledge of the purpose -- for the purpose
9 MR. CYMROT: So you're 9 of money laundering; what do you know about
10 instructing -- to be clear, you're 10 the Defendants', being the Prevezon companies,
11 instructing him not to answer? 11 intent or knowledge of the $230 million fraud?
12 MR. KIM: Correct, I'm instructing 12 A. So are you asking me based on this
13 him not to answer this or any other 13 sentence here or the $230 million fraud?
14 questions that call for the contents 14 Q. Well, for the purpose of -- let me
15 of his conversations with his lawyers. 15 interpret that because that's legalese.
16 MR. CYMROT: Okay. So we might 16 So the Defendants' intent or
17 speed this up so I don't have to ask a 17 knowledge for hiding the proceeds of the
18 whole series of questions, if you'll 18 $230 million fraud?
19 agree that anything on the subject 19 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat the
20 matter you'll give the same 20 question?
21 instruction. 21 Q. Sure. I said what facts do you
22 MR. KIM: No. My objection is 22 have related to the Defendants' intent or
23 simply to the attorney-client 23 knowledge to cover up the proceeds or hide the
24 privilege nature of the contents of 24 proceeds of the $230 million fraud?
25 the communications, not to the subject 25 A. What I've -- what I've read in the
Page 184 Page 185
2 Government's Amended Complaint. 2 Q. So what did they tell you?
3 Q. Well, we've all read that. What do 3 MR. KIM: I object on the
4 you have independent of that? 4 attorney-client privilege is.
5 A. I don't have personally anything 5 MR. CYMROT: All right, but you're
6 independent of that. 6 instructing him not to answer?
7 Q. All right. Do people in your 7 MR. KIM: I'm instructing him not
8 organization have theories about the 8 to answer that specific question, but
9 Defendants' intent or knowledge for the 9 I'm not objecting generally to the
10 purpose of covering up the $230 million fraud? 10 subject matter, you're free to ask
11 A. I believe so. 11 more questions.
12 Q. And who's that? 12 MR. CYMROT: Understood.
13 A. Lawyers. 13 BY MR. CYMROT:
14 Q. Same lawyers? 14 Q. So did you have conversations with
15 A. Same lawyers. 15 the Government about the Defendants' knowledge
16 MR. CYMROT: Are you instructing 16 of the organization?
17 him not to answer as to the substance 17 A. Yes.
18 of those conversations? 18 Q. All right. When were those
19 MR. KIM: There's no question 19 conversations?
20 about it pending, but to -- 20 A. They were -- they are and were
21 MR. CYMROT: I understand. 21 ongoing.
22 MR. KIM: -- the extent you ask 22 Q. I see. Are you still collecting
23 it, I'll make the same objection. 23 information related to this lawsuit?
24 MR. CYMROT: Okay. 24 A. If it -- as it becomes available,
25 BY MR. CYMROT: 25 sure.
47 (Pages 182 to 185)
Page 186 Page 187
2 Q. So you are still collecting 2 MR. MONTELEONI: Right. And to
3 information? 3 the extent that the existence of those
4 A. Any information that becomes 4 investigations is public he can
5 available, yes. 5 answer. And to the extent that it's
6 Q. Comes available how? 6 not, we're requesting that he not
7 A. Through any or -- every and any 7 answer.
8 means. 8 MR. KIM: So on this, this is --
9 Q. So do you have people out asking 9 we have no position on it, but since a
10 questions for information? 10 party has claimed privilege over that
11 A. There are investigations going on 11 potential response to that question,
12 in other countries. 12 we will -- I will instruct the witness
13 Q. That -- 13 not to answer until that's resolved.
14 A. That involve the Defendants or 14 MR. CYMROT: All right.
15 information, more information becomes -- is 15 BY MR. CYMROT:
16 becoming available. 16 Q. So what information do you have
17 Q. All right. Which countries? 17 about other investigations of Prevezon or
18 MR. MONTELEONI: Again, I'm going 18 Mr. Katsyv?
19 to request that the witness not answer 19 MR. KIM: Isn't that what you just
20 to the extent that that information is 20 asked?
21 not already public. 21 MR. CYMROT: Same question, yeah.
22 MR. CYMROT: I'm asking -- to be 22 MR. MONTELEONI: To the extent
23 clear, I'm asking what investigations 23 it's public, you can answer.
24 is he aware of, of the Defendants in 24 MR. KIM: The public part of it,
25 other countries. 25 sorry. Go ahead.
Page 188 Page 189
2 A. So could you just repeat the 2 Q. Well, so what makes you believe
3 question so I know what I'm answering? 3 that they are under criminal investigation in
4 BY MR. CYMROT: 4 Switzerland as I will tell you they've been
5 Q. Yes. What information do you have 5 denied access to that investigation as
6 about investigations in countries other than 6 interested parties?
7 the United States about Prevezon or 7 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
8 Mr. Katsyv? 8 A. Could you rephrase the question,
9 MR. KIM: That is public. 9 please?
10 THE WITNESS: That's public. 10 Q. Yes. What makes you believe
11 MR. CYMROT: That is public. 11 they're under criminal investigation in
12 BY MR. CYMROT: 12 Switzerland?
13 Q. Well, that's the instruction you've 13 A. Because their names are on
14 been given. 14 documents in the court where they're
15 A. These two people have been -- or 15 requesting that Hermitage didn't have access
16 the Prevezon and Katsyv and Litvak are, I 16 to the file.
17 believe, subjects to criminal investigation in 17 Q. Their names are on documents in the
18 Switzerland. 18 court where Hermitage does not have access to
19 Q. Have they been named as the subject 19 the file?
20 of that investigation? 20 A. No. Let's just start again.
21 A. I don't know the formalities of the 21 Q. Yes.
22 Swiss proceeding. 22 A. So they -- they -- they made a
23 Q. Haven't they been denied a role as 23 filing with the Swiss criminal tribunal to
24 interested parties in that proceeding? 24 deny Hermitage access to the criminal case
25 A. I don't know. 25 file, both Mr. Katsyv and Mr. Litvak.
48 (Pages 186 to 189)
Page 190 Page 191
2 Q. And from there you conclude they 2 investigation in Israel for money laundering.
3 are under criminal investigation? 3 Q. And what happened with that?
4 A. Why would two people unrelated to 4 A. Their money was seized and they
5 this -- so my assumption -- 5 walked away.
6 MR. KIM: Mr. Browder, you should 6 Q. They worked out a settlement and
7 answer a question, not ask a question. 7 then the Court found there was no money
8 MR. CYMROT: Yeah, because I'm not 8 laundering?
9 going to answer your questions. 9 A. I'm not a legal expert, but that's
10 MR. KIM: He's not obligated to 10 not how I read it.
11 answer. 11 Q. So what did you read?
12 THE WITNESS: Sorry. My mistake. 12 A. That they had to give the money to
13 BY MR. CYMROT: 13 the Israeli government as a penalty for money
14 Q. That's the basis for your 14 laundering.
15 conclusion that they're under criminal 15 Q. What did you read?
16 investigation in Switzerland? 16 A. I read the Israeli money laundering
17 A. And I -- I'm trying to remember 17 document.
18 what other reasons. Off the top of my head I 18 Q. Did you read the document that said
19 can't remember any other reasons. 19 the banker who supposedly was the one money
20 Q. All right. What other countries 20 laundering was acquitted because there was no
21 have them under criminal investigation 21 money laundering?
22 according to you? 22 A. That's not how I read it, but I'm
23 MR. MONTELEONI: To the extent 23 not a lawyer.
24 that it's public. 24 Q. I see. Were you the one that gave
25 A. They were under criminal 25 that document to the U.S. attorney?
Page 192 Page 193
2 A. No. 2 Q. Yeah. You're telling me you can't
3 Q. Who gave that document to the U.S. 3 remember who gave you that document this year?
4 attorney? 4 A. Yes.
5 A. Someone on my team. 5 Q. It was somebody within your
6 Q. Who? Somebody on your team 6 organization?
7 provided it? 7 A. Yes.
8 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. Are you aware of any
9 Q. And who provided it to your team? 9 other criminal investigations of the
10 A. I don't know. 10 Defendants?
11 Q. Who on your team had that document? 11 MR. MONTELEONI: To the extent
12 A. I don't know. 12 they're public.
13 Q. Who did you see -- who gave it to 13 Q. Or Mr. Katsyv or Mr. Litvak?
14 you? 14 A. There's no other information that's
15 A. I don't remember. 15 not public that I can share.
16 Q. When did they give it to you? 16 Q. And the information that you got,
17 A. I don't remember. 17 you got from the U.S. attorney? In other
18 Q. You know, we read your book and you 18 words, where did you get the information about
19 have all sorts of details going back, I don't 19 other criminal investigations of the
20 know, 15 years about what people were wearing 20 Defendants, Mr. Katsyv and Mr. Litvak?
21 and what people did and you had a great memory 21 MR. MONTELEONI: To the extent
22 where it came to things you wanted to talk 22 that that question is asking about
23 about, but you can't even tell me who gave you 23 whether he got information about some
24 a document just, what, last year, this year? 24 type of nonpublic investigation, if
25 A. Is there a question? 25 any, I'm going to request that the
49 (Pages 190 to 193)
Page 194 Page 195
2 witness not answer that question. 2 public is something that's covered by
3 MR. KIM: So because a party is 3 the law enforcement privilege. And
4 claiming privilege over the ans- -- 4 the interaction that he had with that
5 potential answer to that particular 5 information and he came into that
6 question, I'm going to ask the witness 6 investigation any knowledge he may of
7 or instruct the witness not to answer 7 that investigation, to the extent that
8 to the extent it reveals the 8 it's about something that's ongoing,
9 information that the U.S. Attorney's 9 it's criminal, it's not public under
10 Office just mentioned. 10 the law enforcement privilege.
11 MR. CYMROT: So to be clear, if he 11 MR. CYMROT: Worldwide?
12 didn't get it from you but he got it 12 MR. MONTELEONI: Well, I guess,
13 from somebody else, you're saying we 13 yes, including with respect to --
14 can't have that information; you're 14 to -- I mean, if you're asking for a
15 asserting what privilege? 15 list of -- of countries, then yes. If
16 MR. MONTELEONI: The -- the law 16 you wanted to ask country by country,
17 enforcement privilege with respect to 17 I suppose he could answer on that --
18 ongoing investigation -- ongoing 18 on that basis, but...
19 criminal investigations that are not 19 MR. CYMROT: I'm asking are you
20 public. 20 asserting this privilege worldwide,
21 MR. CYMROT: And he got the 21 any law enforcement agency anywhere,
22 information from a third party? 22 information coming from a third party,
23 MR. MONTELEONI: We -- any 23 you're claiming the law enforcement
24 information about an ongoing law 24 privilege?
25 enforcement investigation that's not 25 MR. MONTELEONI: Based on the
Page 196 Page 197
2 information that we have, we think 2 it's our position and I'm instructing
3 that the answer to questions about the 3 the witness not to answer while a
4 witness's knowledge of ongoing 4 party claims privilege until it has
5 nonpublic criminal investigations 5 been adjudicated.
6 conducted by other countries would 6 BY MR. CYMROT:
7 implicate the United States's law 7 Q. Okay. So let me ask you this: Are
8 enforcement privilege. 8 you familiar with a Mutual Legal Assistance
9 The United States I can say has 9 Treaty request from the United States to
10 been working with other countries in 10 Russia?
11 conducting investigations and has law 11 A. I've read about it in -- in either
12 enforcement interests in nonpublic 12 the Complaint or some of the docket filings.
13 criminal investigations conducted by 13 Q. Okay. And do you have any
14 other countries not being jeopardized 14 knowledge about how the Russian Federation
15 by premature disclosure. 15 responded to the United States with respect to
16 MR. CYMROT: Okay. And you're 16 that MLAT request?
17 instructing him not to answer on that 17 A. I don't.
18 basis, right? 18 Q. Have you ever seen that MLAT
19 MR. KIM: This is not my privilege 19 request?
20 call, I'm not here to adjudicate. 20 A. No.
21 MR. CYMROT: I understand. 21 Q. Have you seen the United States'
22 MR. KIM: I'm just going to 22 request to the Netherlands?
23 respond to specific questions. I 23 A. No.
24 understand that the last question 24 Q. Are you aware of any United States'
25 elicited a privilege objection, and 25 request under mutual legal assistance treaties
50 (Pages 194 to 197)
Page 198 Page 199
2 to any other country related to this case? 2 BY MR. CYMROT:
3 A. Only what I've read in the public 3 Q. Do you know anybody who's testified
4 documents on the docket. 4 before a Grand Jury in connection with the
5 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any other 5 $230 million fraud?
6 informal requests from the United States to 6 A. No.
7 other countries in connection with this case? 7 Q. So according -- going back to
8 A. No. No. 8 Exhibit 13, the United States represents that
9 Q. Do you know whether a Grand Jury 9 you have information concerning the transfers
10 has been paneled to investigate the 10 described in to the Verified Complaint; do you
11 $230 million fraud? 11 see that?
12 A. Only what I've read on the public 12 A. Could you just further me to which
13 docket. 13 subject matter this is?
14 Q. Have you testified before a Grand 14 Q. It's No. 7.
15 Jury? 15 A. Yes, I see that.
16 THE WITNESS: Is this a privilege? 16 Q. Do you have information about the
17 MR. CYMROT: No. The witness 17 transfers? Do you know what transfers that
18 doesn't have a privilege. 18 that refers to?
19 MR. KIM: I think the witness just 19 A. I'm not sure, no.
20 asked the question. We're not 20 Q. All right. So generally, it's the
21 asserting a privilege. 21 transfers from the Russian Treasury through
22 MR. CYMROT: No, but... 22 the various accounts, the chart that we were
23 MR. MONTELEONI: No, the witness 23 looking at getting to allegedly the Prevezon
24 can answer. 24 accounts with...
25 A. Okay, no. 25 A. Right.
Page 200 Page 201
2 Q. Do you have any information about 2 Complaint?
3 those transfers? 3 A. No.
4 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know anything about the
5 Q. Did you ever tell the United States 5 tracing methodology -- methodology tracing
6 you had information about those transfers? 6 funds from the Russian Treasury to the
7 A. We provided a Complaint or I should 7 Defendants?
8 say actually I -- I submitted a Complaint to 8 A. Just what I've read in our
9 the New York District Attorney's office with 9 Complaint.
10 all that stuff attached, so maybe they -- 10 Q. In the Exhibit 1 that we looked at
11 Q. But you have no -- you have no 11 at the beginning?
12 understanding about what those transfers are 12 A. I read the text of the Complaint.
13 or what they mean? 13 Q. Of the Verified Complaint?
14 A. No. No, I don't. 14 A. I read the text or at least what we
15 Q. And it says "Additional transfers 15 provided to the Govern- -- to the New York
16 that support the allegations in the Verified 16 USDA's office and I read the Verified
17 Complaint." 17 Complaint.
18 Now this time I can't help you, I 18 Q. Okay. When you say "our
19 don't know what additional transfers, but do 19 Complaint," you're talking about the one that
20 you know what additional transfers you're 20 went to the D.A.?
21 referring to? 21 A. Correct. The Hermitage Capital
22 A. No. 22 Complaint.
23 Q. Do you have information about 23 Q. All right. You read it, but you
24 additional transfers of funds that would 24 don't really understand it; is that accurate?
25 support the allegations in the Verified 25 A. I read it, but I can't explain the
51 (Pages 198 to 201)
Page 202 Page 203
2 documents in the back. 2 information?
3 Q. So information about the nature of 3 A. I read it somewhere.
4 businesses operated by the Defendants, do you 4 Q. Read it where?
5 have knowledge about that? 5 A. It's online.
6 A. I have a little bit of knowledge 6 Q. What website?
7 about that. 7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. What do you know about the nature 8 Q. Did you ever meet Denis Katsyv?
9 of businesses operated by the Defendants? 9 A. No.
10 A. That the Defendants operate a -- or 10 Q. Have you --
11 I should say the Peter -- or Denis Katsyv 11 (Whereupon, an off-the-record
12 operates a transportation company in Moscow. 12 discussion was held.)
13 Q. And what else? 13 MR. CYMROT: I'm told there's a
14 A. I think he has a hotel in Kozelsk 14 problem with the audio. We're being
15 or someplace like that. 15 told there's a problem with the audio.
16 Q. That's in Russia? 16 (Whereupon, at this time, a short
17 A. Yes. 17 break was taken.)
18 Q. What else? 18 BY MR. CYMROT:
19 A. Off the top of my head that's what 19 Q. All right. Have you conducted any
20 I remember. 20 investigation of the businesses operated by
21 Q. Have you given that information to 21 Defendants?
22 the U.S. Attorney's Office? 22 A. No.
23 A. I don't remember if I did or 23 Q. Has anybody in your organization?
24 didn't. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how do you know that 25 Q. Who is that?
Page 204 Page 205
2 A. My legal team. 2 Q. Did you get any information from
3 Q. And what's the nature of the 3 Dmitry Baranovsky?
4 investigation? 4 A. No.
5 MR. KIM: I give the same 5 Q. You produced documents in response
6 objection, that I believe that 6 to a document request for information from
7 question would call for the contents 7 Dmitry Baranovsky and it included all the
8 of Mr. Browder's conversations with 8 property records of Prevezon. Did you get
9 his legal team and subject to 9 that from Mr. Baranovsky?
10 attorney-client privilege, so I 10 A. No.
11 instruct the witness not to answer 11 Q. Did you get it from Mr. Stolbunov?
12 that particular question. 12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you give information about the 13 Q. Do you know Mr. Stolbunov?
14 nature of the businesses operated by 14 A. No.
15 Defendants to the Government? 15 Q. Andrei Stolbunov?
16 A. Yes. 16 A. I don't know him.
17 Q. And documents? 17 Q. Do you know Mr. Baranovsky?
18 A. Yes. 18 A. No.
19 Q. And what documents are those? 19 Q. You called him in one of your
20 A. Information about their 20 pleadings a human rights campaigner; do you
21 transportation company, et cetera. 21 remember doing that?
22 Q. And where -- where -- and you got 22 A. Vaguely.
23 all this information online; is that what 23 Q. And what's the basis for doing
24 you're saying? 24 that?
25 A. Yes. 25 A. The -- his background story.
52 (Pages 202 to 205)
Page 206 Page 207
2 Q. His background story being he's in 2 answer.
3 prison for trying to extort $20 million in 3 Q. Do you know whether members of your
4 property from Mr. Katsyv; is that the 4 team have had communications with
5 background story you're talking about? 5 Mr. Baranovsky?
6 A. No. 6 A. I'm not aware of them having
7 Q. You're aware that he's been 7 communications with him.
8 convicted of extortion, right? 8 Q. Do you know whether members of your
9 A. I am. 9 team had communications with Mr. Stolbunov?
10 Q. Not just from Mr. Katsyv on several 10 A. I'm not aware.
11 occasions at least more than one you're aware 11 Q. Do you know whether Brown Rudnick
12 of that? 12 has had communications with Mr. Stolbunov?
13 A. No. 13 A. I'm not aware.
14 Q. Have you had any communications 14 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Stolbunov
15 with Mr. Bern move ski? 15 has met with Brown Rudnick?
16 A. No. 16 A. I'm not aware.
17 Q. Have you had any communications 17 Q. Do you get reports on the
18 with Andre stove move? 18 investigation going on by your team in
19 A. No. 19 connection with this case?
20 Q. Have you had any communications 20 A. Sometimes.
21 with Mr. Pavlov who's in the Complaint? 21 Q. Are they in writing?
22 A. No. 22 A. No.
23 Q. What made you think about that? 23 Q. Oral?
24 You may have? 24 A. Yes.
25 A. I'm trying to give you a correct 25 Q. So you intentionally keep them from
Page 208 Page 209
2 being written down? 2 BY MR. CYMROT:
3 A. No. 3 Q. So this is Exhibit 14, the Verified
4 Q. So why are they only giving you -- 4 Amended Complaint, which was filed on
5 you don't exchange e-mails about this case? 5 November 5, 2014. All right.
6 A. We exchange e-mails about lots of 6 You're familiar with that document,
7 things. 7 right?
8 Q. And about this case? 8 A. Yes.
9 A. About -- sometimes we do, yes. 9 Q. You read it more than once, I
10 Q. So there are writings about this 10 imagine?
11 case? 11 A. What's the question?
12 A. That wasn't your -- that wasn't 12 Q. Have you read it more than once?
13 your question before. 13 You've read it?
14 Q. All right. Are there any writings 14 A. I read the document.
15 that your team has given you about this case? 15 Q. Okay. Did you discuss it with
16 A. Yes. 16 anybody in the U.S. Attorney's Office?
17 Q. And they're in e-mails? 17 A. I don't recall.
18 A. I believe so. 18 Q. Did you review it before it was
19 Q. All right. 19 filed?
20 MR. CYMROT: All right. So let's 20 A. No.
21 go to the Amended Complaint, which 21 Q. Did anybody on your team review it
22 we're going to mark as a new exhibit. 22 before it was filed?
23 (Browder Exhibit 14, Verified 23 A. Not that I'm aware of.
24 Amended Complaint was marked for 24 Q. Let's look at paragraph 39. Okay.
25 identification, as of this date.) 25 Okay. If you look at the last
53 (Pages 206 to 209)
Page 210 Page 211
2 sentence in paragraph 39, it says "During the 2 organization?
3 relevant period, the head of Moscow, Tax 3 A. No.
4 Office No. 25 was Yelena Khimina, who on 4 Q. To be clear, I am correct that in
5 information and belief is a member of the 5 your view, Ms. Stepanova's not a member of the
6 organization, and the head of the Moscow Tax 6 organization?
7 Office No. 28 was Stepanova, who had traveled 7 A. You're incorrect.
8 to Larnaca in May of 2007 and on information 8 Q. I am incorrect.
9 and belief met with Klyuev to plan the 9 So in your view, Ms. Stepanova is a
10 $230 million fraud scheme." 10 member of the organization?
11 Do you see that? 11 A. Yes.
12 A. I do. 12 Q. And what facts lead you to believe
13 Q. Do you know where the -- do you see 13 Ms. Stepanova is a member of the organization?
14 that Ms. Khimina is described on information 14 A. Well, there's a number of facts.
15 and belief as a member of the organization; do 15 Q. Go ahead. What are they?
16 you see that? 16 A. First of all, she was one of the
17 A. Yes. 17 people who approved the tax refund in one day,
18 Q. But Ms. Stepanova is not; do you 18 on November or December 24, 2007. The lar- --
19 see that? 19 lion's share of the tax refund.
20 A. Um-hum. 20 Q. Anything else?
21 Q. Did you discuss that with the U.S. 21 A. That her husband or ex-husband,
22 Attorney's Office? 22 depending on whose version you believe,
23 A. No. 23 received around -- somewhere between 7 and
24 Q. So as far as you're concerned, 24 $10 million in his account at Credit Suisse
25 Ms. Stepanova is not a member of the 25 from the fraud -- following the fraud.
Page 212 Page 213
2 Q. Okay. Anything else? 2 functionaries. I mean, who -- isn't that
3 A. That the two of them, husband and 3 true? These aren't the planning people?
4 wife, purchased real estate in Dubai. 4 A. Is -- is -- what's the question?
5 Q. Anything else? 5 Q. Who is -- let me amend the
6 A. And the travel records of the 6 question.
7 Stepanova's -- Stepanova, Stepanova. 7 Who's at the top of the Klyuev
8 Q. To Larnaca. The ones we referred 8 organization?
9 to before? 9 A. Dmitry Klyuev.
10 A. Also the travel records to Dubai 10 Q. And who are his deputies?
11 and various other places. 11 A. Andrey Pavlov.
12 Q. What other places? 12 Q. Anybody else?
13 A. I don't remember off the top of my 13 A. Yes.
14 head. 14 Q. Who else?
15 Q. Anything else? 15 A. Artem Kuznetsov.
16 A. That's all I can recall at the 16 Q. All right. Anybody else?
17 moment. 17 A. Oleg Urzhumstev.
18 Q. Okay. So, first of all, you said 18 Q. Who is that?
19 this is the Klyuev organization; is that 19 A. Oleg Urzhumstev.
20 right? 20 Q. How do you spell that?
21 A. That's correct. 21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. And who's in the Klyuev 22 Q. Urzhumstev?
23 organization? 23 A. You can ask your clients. They'll
24 A. Olga Stepanova, Yelena Khimina. 24 know.
25 Q. Well, these are just the 25 Q. Why would my clients know?
54 (Pages 210 to 213)
Page 214 Page 215
2 A. Seems like they would know how to 2 Q. Anybody else in the Klyuev
3 spell a Russian name like that. 3 lieutenant circle?
4 Q. That's just a crack, right? You 4 A. Yes. Pavel Karpov.
5 were just being sarcastic? 5 Q. Yes?
6 A. Just -- just... 6 A. Viktor Markelov.
7 Q. You think it's funny being here, 7 Q. The sawmill operator?
8 them having all their property attached in the 8 A. Yes.
9 United States? It's worth being sarcastic 9 Q. Who else?
10 about? Is that what you think? 10 A. Vyacheslav Khlebnikov.
11 A. What's the question? 11 Q. The other person who was convicted?
12 Q. Whether you think it's appropriate 12 A. He was convicted, yes.
13 to be sarcastic in a situation like this? 13 Q. Who else?
14 Do you have an answer for my 14 A. The deputies of Stepanova and
15 question? 15 Khimina, whose names escape me at the moment.
16 A. I'm thinking. 16 Q. Anybody else?
17 Q. Of another sarcastic remark? 17 A. There are probably others, but I
18 A. No. 18 don't have them on top of my hand.
19 Q. You're not suggesting 19 Q. Have you traced any of the
20 Mr. Urzhumstev has any relationship to 20 $230 million to Mr. Klyuev?
21 Mr. Katsyv, do you? 21 A. It went through Universal Savings
22 A. I don't know. 22 Bank, which was his bank.
23 Q. What's his profession? 23 Q. Any of it stay there and he
24 A. He's in the Interior Ministry -- 24 pocketed it?
25 was in the Interior Ministry. 25 A. I don't know.
Page 216 Page 217
2 Q. You have no information to suggest 2 A. I don't remember.
3 that happened, right? 3 Q. Is it anywhere in Exhibit 1?
4 A. He was involved in the 4 A. I don't know.
5 money-laundering operations. 5 Q. Did you trace any -- well, if it's
6 Q. How was he involved? 6 not in Exhibit 1, where would it have been
7 A. By providing the bank. 7 given?
8 Q. Did he actually order money moved? 8 A. I don't know.
9 A. I don't know what his -- I don't -- 9 Q. Well, if you look at the tracing
10 I wasn't a witness to his actions. 10 which is exhibit -- Tab 8 -- and take your
11 Q. So you don't have any information 11 time, but it makes no reference, that I'm
12 about him receiving money or ordering the 12 aware, to companies being controlled by Klyuev
13 movement of money? 13 or Pavlov.
14 A. No. 14 A. Which -- which section should I be
15 Q. Mr. Pavlov, have you traced any 15 looking at?
16 money to the $230 million fraud to Mr. Pavlov? 16 Q. Any section you want, but the
17 A. Actually, let me correct my 17 tracing -- the bank transactions are in Tab 8.
18 previous statement. I believe there was some 18 (Whereupon, an off-the-record
19 money that was traced to -- to Klyuev and 19 discussion was held.)
20 Pavlov in site -- into companies they were 20 A. No, you -- not in this -- the
21 involved in in Cyprus. 21 document.
22 Q. Traced by who? 22 THE WITNESS: Could I ask for a
23 A. By my team. 23 break?
24 Q. Did you give that information to 24 MR. CYMROT: Sure.
25 the U.S. Attorney's Office? 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
55 (Pages 214 to 217)
Page 218 Page 219
2 2:38 p.m. We are off the record. 2 A. Yes.
3 (Whereupon, at this time, a short 3 Q. You're sure?
4 break was taken.) 4 A. Yes.
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5 Q. And So you have information of that
6 2:42 p.m. We are back on the record. 6 nature?
7 BY MR. CYMROT: 7 A. I don't personally. My team has
8 Q. All right. So, Mr. Browder, 8 it.
9 there's nothing in Exhibit 1 about any tracing 9 Q. I see.
10 to Mr. Klyuev or Mr. Pavlov to Cyprus 10 And you haven't produced it to us
11 Companies. So is there somewhere else that 11 one more time; is that right?
12 you provided this to the U.S. government? 12 Was that intentional?
13 A. No, not -- I don't remember what we 13 A. No.
14 provided in -- in relation to this issue. 14 Q. How did you get the information?
15 Q. Do you re -- are you sure there -- 15 A. I don't know.
16 A. I think I -- let me -- let me 16 Q. Who got the information?
17 rephrase. I didn't provide anything to the 17 A. My team.
18 U.S. government on this issue. 18 Q. Who on your team got this
19 Q. Did anybody on your team provide 19 information?
20 information to the U.S. government on this 20 A. Lawyers and my staff.
21 issue? 21 Q. What lawyers and what staff?
22 A. Not that I'm aware of. 22 A. Vladimir Pastukhov and Vadim
23 Q. Are you sure that that tracing 23 Kleiner and other lawyers.
24 occurred to Cyprus Companies for Pavlov and 24 Q. How much money went to Mr. Klyuev
25 Klyuev? 25 and Mr. Pavlov?
Page 220 Page 221
2 A. I don't know. 2 Q. And Mr. Markelov?
3 And let me -- let me -- well, yes. 3 A. Yes. He was the -- he was the
4 I don't know. Let's stick with that answer. 4 owner of the stolen companies.
5 Q. Have you traced any money to 5 Q. Did you trace any money into a bank
6 Mr. Kuznetsov? 6 account from Mr. Markelov --
7 A. Not to my personal knowledge. 7 A. He was --
8 Q. Can you speak up, please. 8 Q. -- from the $230 million fraud?
9 A. Not to my personal knowledge. 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have you traced any money from the 10 Q. How much money?
11 $230 million fraud to Mr. Urzhumstsev? 11 A. About two-thirds of the
12 A. Who? 12 $230 million went to his accounts at USB.
13 Q. This fellow we had this little go 13 Q. Okay. So he was the account holder
14 around about how you spell list name. 14 at USB for the money that came through USB?
15 Urzhumstsev? Urzhumstsev? 15 A. No. He was the -- he was the owner
16 A. Oh, you mean -- you mean Urzh- -- 16 of the company -- I believe a director, but
17 Urzhumstsev. 17 I'm not sure about that -- of -- of the -- he
18 Q. Urzhumstsev. I won't be able to 18 was the owner of the three stolen Hermitage
19 spell it in. 19 companies and director of one of them, I
20 A. Right. I -- 20 believe.
21 Q. Did you trace any money to him? 21 Q. And did any of the money stay in
22 A. Not in my personal knowledge. 22 bank accounts that he had access to?
23 Q. Trace any money from the fraud to 23 A. Not to my personal knowledge.
24 Mr. Karpov? 24 Q. Mr. Khlebnikov, the other fellow
25 A. Not to my personal knowledge. 25 who was convicted, did you trace any money to
56 (Pages 218 to 221)
Page 222 Page 223
2 him? 2 Q. Right?
3 A. He was the director of one of the 3 A. Yes.
4 companies that received part of the 4 Q. Right. You say husband or
5 $230 million. 5 ex-husband, there's a dispute about that.
6 Q. And did any money stay in that 6 A. Correct.
7 account for his use? 7 Q. What's the dispute?
8 A. Not to my personal knowledge. 8 A. Whether they're divorced or not.
9 Q. Did you trace any money to 9 Q. Whether they've ever been divorced?
10 Ms. Khimina, the head of Tax Office No. 25? 10 A. Whether they're divorced or not
11 A. Yes. 11 or -- or legitimately divorced or whether it
12 Q. How much money did you trace to 12 means anything.
13 Ms. Khimina? 13 Q. I see. So Mr. Step -- Stepanov
14 A. I don't remember the exact amount, 14 claims they were divorced in the 1990s, right?
15 but she used money to buy apartments in Dubai 15 A. I don't remember when -- when they
16 that was wired by Credit Suisse. 16 were supposed to have been divorced, no. I
17 Q. And how do you trace that back to 17 don't know the details.
18 the Russian $230 million fraud? 18 Q. I see. You traced any money into
19 A. I didn't do the tracing. 19 her name?
20 Q. You don't have any idea? 20 A. No.
21 A. No. 21 Q. So it's all to Mr. Stepanov?
22 Q. And Mr. -- Ms. Stepanova you say 22 A. Again, so the -- so you have the
23 got money because Mr. Stepanov, her husband, 23 Olga Stepanova, who is the head of Tax Office
24 got money, according to you. 24 No. 28, approving the tax refunds.
25 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Right.
Page 224 Page 225
2 A. And then that money going to 2 right?
3 accounts in her husband's name at Credit 3 A. Yes.
4 Suisse. 4 Q. All right. Are you saying that the
5 Q. According to you. 5 judge was corrupt?
6 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 6 MR. KIM: Objection to form. You
7 Ex-husband's name. Excuse me. 7 talking about the Complaint or him?
8 Q. Husband or ex-husband, depending on 8 MR. CYMROT: No. I'm talking
9 how you resolve the dispute. 9 about whether he's saying the judge
10 A. Correct. 10 that made that finding.
11 Q. Okay. So if you look at the 11 Q. Are you saying that judge was
12 Amended Complaint, paragraph 69. This relates 12 corrupt?
13 to the conviction of Mr. Markelov and 13 A. Could you just rephrase.
14 Mr. Khlebnikov. And if you look at the 14 Q. Are you saying that the judge that
15 second-to-last sentence, it says, "The verdict 15 made that finding that the tax authorities
16 announcing Markelov sentence claim that the 16 were deceived by Markelov and not complicit --
17 tax authorities were deceived by Markelov and 17 that's contrary to your theory, right? Your
18 not complicit." 18 theory is they were complicit?
19 Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. They were complicit.
20 A. Um-hum. 20 Q. Right. So are you saying that the
21 Q. That would be refer- -- 21 judge was corrupt?
22 You have to give me a yes for that. 22 A. I don't know whether he was corrupt
23 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. 23 or whether he was threatened or whether he was
24 Q. Okay. So that would be referring 24 stupid, but he --
25 to Ms. Stepanova and Ms. -- Ms. Khimina, 25 Q. Do you know?
57 (Pages 222 to 225)
Page 226 Page 227
2 A. I don't -- I don't know. 2 to ignore that information, he would have had
3 Q. Do you know whether he was corrupt? 3 to be either corrupt, threatened, or stupid.
4 A. I -- I don't know whether he was 4 Q. So let me -- so the information
5 corrupt. 5 available on the Markelov case makes it clear
6 Q. Do you know whether he was 6 that the tax authorities were complicit?
7 threatened? 7 A. No. The information available on
8 A. I don't know whether he was 8 the -- yes. The information that's
9 threatened. 9 available -- the information that's in -- in
10 Q. Do you know whether he was stupid? 10 the case file makes it pretty clear to me that
11 A. I don't know whether he was stupid, 11 the tax authorities were complicit.
12 but I do know one of the three. 12 Q. And you're talking about the
13 Q. Because you want to believe that, 13 Markelov case file?
14 right? 14 A. Yes.
15 You don't have any facts that would 15 Q. And you reviewed the Markelov case
16 support that, right? 16 file?
17 MR. KIM: Objection to form. Is 17 A. No.
18 it the last question you want him to 18 Q. But you made the conclusion even
19 answer, or the -- 19 though you didn't review the file?
20 Q. So -- so do you have any facts that 20 A. I have information from the file
21 would support that the judge who made that 21 that was presented to me.
22 finding was corrupt, threatened, or stupid? 22 Q. By whom?
23 A. The information available on this 23 A. By my team.
24 case is clear and overwhelming that the tax 24 Q. The lawyers that you're referring
25 authorities were complicit. And for a judge 25 to?
Page 228 Page 229
2 A. Yes. 2 I'll find it.
3 Q. And how did they get access to the 3 Paragraph 42. Should I read it out
4 criminal file of Mr. Markelov? 4 loud to you?
5 A. I don't know. 5 Q. If you want. It talks about how
6 Q. Is it legal for them to have that 6 the tax authority said they verified.
7 information? 7 A. Let me read it out loud to you:
8 A. They -- I would assume, yes. 8 "In sub- -- in subsequent
9 Q. You're sure about that? 9 investigation, officials of Tax Offices No. 25
10 A. Yes. 10 and 28 made witness statements claiming that
11 Q. And what information are you 11 amended tax returns were submitted in or about
12 referring to? 12 November of 2007 and claim to have taken
13 A. I'm referring to checks that took 13 certain steps to verify the legitimacy of
14 place -- there's actually docu- -- I can -- I 14 claimed losses.
15 can read you from the Complaint, if you want. 15 "These statements do not appear to
16 Q. Sure. 16 be fully accurate. One official claimed,
17 A. Would that -- would that be helpful 17 among other things, to have checked with the
18 to you? 18 corresponding tax authorities whether the
19 Q. If there's something in the 19 Plaintiff's in the sham lawsuits had reported
20 Complaint you want to refer to, be my guest. 20 receivables corresponding to the fraudulently
21 A. It might -- might take me a few 21 obtained judgments and have found positive
22 minutes to find it, but just bear with me. 22 receivables reported. However, the forms in
23 Q. Well, if you tell me what it is, I 23 Star and grant acts you've actually filed with
24 might help you. 24 the tax authority show zero receivables over
25 A. Okay. I want to -- hold on. No, 25 all relevant time periods.
58 (Pages 226 to 229)
Page 230 Page 231
2 "One of the judgments on which the 2 A. Yes.
3 refund applications were based, by its own 3 Q. Anybody can have access to tax
4 terms, did not go into legal effect until 4 information in Russia?
5 January 11, 2008. Nevertheless, on 5 A. No.
6 December 24, 2007, the same day that the most 6 Q. So why is it legal for you to have
7 of -- of the refund applications were filed 7 it?
8 and one business day after the others were 8 A. Because we got it legally.
9 filed, Khimina and Stepanova, as head of 9 Q. How did you get it legally?
10 Moscow Tax Office 25 and 28, approved the 10 A. I don't know.
11 $230 million in refunds which, on information 11 Q. You're sure you got it legally, but
12 and belief, amounted to the largest known tax 12 you don't know how you got it?
13 refund in Russian history." 13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that what you're referring to? 14 Q. And what makes you so sure you got
15 A. Yes. 15 it legally?
16 Q. And this is information your team 16 A. Because I work with reliable people
17 got from the tax authorities? 17 who do things by the law.
18 A. (No verbal response.) 18 Q. Now, Mr. Kleiner, according to your
19 Q. Where did you get this information? 19 book, went into Moscow. He has sources, you
20 A. I don't know. 20 say, and he got information.
21 Q. Is it legal for you to have tax 21 So why wouldn't he tell you who the
22 information from taxpayers other than your 22 sources are if he has information that's
23 own? 23 legally obtained?
24 A. Yes. 24 A. What's the question?
25 Q. It's legal? 25 Q. Why wouldn't he tell you who the
Page 232 Page 233
2 sources are if he has information that's 2 A. Okay. So what is the question
3 legally obtained? 3 about the Central Bank records?
4 A. The question -- you're making an 4 Q. How -- why would he need sources to
5 assumption with a question. 5 get legal information?
6 Q. I'm quoting your book which says, 6 A. I don't know.
7 "Mr. Kleiner said, 'I have sources in -- in 7 Q. Okay. And you have no idea how the
8 Moscow, and he came back with information, I 8 tax information came in possession of your
9 think, from the Central Bank.'" 9 team because they never do anything wrong,
10 Why would he need sources if it was 10 right?
11 legal to have the information? 11 A. I -- I don't know how my team got
12 A. Are you asking about this 12 this information, and I'm -- I assume and I'm
13 information or are you asking about different 13 confident that it was obtained legally.
14 information? 14 Q. Because that's what you want to
15 Q. I'm asking about the information in 15 believe. But you can't give us any facts.
16 the book. 16 Give me a fact. Give me a fact.
17 A. Which -- which information? 17 Rather than your belief, your general belief,
18 Q. That Mr. Kleiner got from the 18 give me a fact that would tell me this stuff
19 Central Bank -- 19 was obtained legally.
20 A. Okay -- 20 A. Is that a question?
21 Q. -- from sources? 21 Q. Yes. Give me a fact.
22 A. Okay. So you're -- you're not -- 22 A. I have -- I am -- I have no facts
23 you're asking about the Central Bank, not -- 23 to give you.
24 not about the tax records now. 24 Q. So the best thing to say was, "I
25 Q. That's right. 25 believe it was obtained legally," right?
59 (Pages 230 to 233)
Page 234 Page 235
2 MR. KIM: Objection to the form. 2 "Hello, Ms. Stepanova. We want to ask you
3 A. What's the question? 3 some questions," but nobody's ever done that,
4 Q. I'll withdraw it. 4 right?
5 So you claim that Ms. Stepanova got 5 A. I'm not sure who has or hasn't
6 a lot of money, right? 6 knocked on her door.
7 A. I claim that she and her husband 7 Q. I see. Has anybody on your team
8 profited from this crime in large amount, yes. 8 ever spoken to Ms. Stepanova?
9 Q. Right. And you make the conclusion 9 A. No.
10 that she and her husband profited from the 10 Q. Has anybody on your team ever
11 fact that -- you say -- he got money in his 11 observed her at that $20 million house?
12 name? 12 A. Nobody on my team has, but I --
13 A. That's one of the -- one of the -- 13 I've some -- received information from people
14 one of the assumptions about her wealth. 14 who have --
15 Q. Is -- one of the assumptions is 15 Q. Okay.
16 that he got money from the $230 million fraud? 16 A. -- observed her.
17 A. Correct. 17 Q. "People." Can you give me some
18 Q. And the other assumption is they're 18 names?
19 still married? 19 A. Alexander Perepilichny.
20 A. Another assumption is they live in 20 Q. Who is deceased?
21 a -- in a $20 million house in Moscow on a 21 A. Correct.
22 salary of $38,000 a year. 22 Q. Did he give you the information in
23 Q. I see. And it shouldn't be very 23 writing?
24 hard, if she lives there, for somebody to 24 A. He gave us a bunch of bank
25 knock at that -- knock on the door and say, 25 documents about Ms. -- or Ms. Stepanova's
Page 236 Page 237
2 husband's account. 2 BY MR. CYMROT:
3 Q. Right. About the husband's 3 Q. All right. Do you recognize it.
4 accounts. But none of these documents 4 What is it?
5 mentioned Ms. Stepanova, correct? 5 A. This is the Complaint that was
6 A. I'm not sure. 6 filed by Brown Rudnick on behalf of Hermitage
7 Q. Well, why don't we take a look at 7 Capital Management to the Swiss attorney
8 them. You sent the documents to the Swiss 8 general in January 2011 in relation to the --
9 authorities, right? 9 part of the --
10 A. Correct. 10 Q. Speak up a little.
11 MR. CYMROT: Let me mark an 11 A. You want me to repeat what I said
12 exhibit. This is Exhibit 15. It's a 12 or just --
13 letter dated 28 January 2011 to the 13 Q. No, no. Keep going.
14 attorney general of Switzerland and 14 A. -- in relation to the money that
15 others. It's signed by Neil 15 showed up in Switzerland from the $230 million
16 Micklethwaite. 16 tax-rebate fraud.
17 (Browder Exhibit 15, document 17 Q. Okay. So let's go to the Verified
18 Bates stamped PREV_000002326 was 18 Complaint first and then go -- did you provide
19 marked for identification, as of this 19 this Swiss document to the U.S. government?
20 date.) 20 A. I don't remember.
21 BY MR. CYMROT: 21 Q. Do you know what the -- well, let's
22 Q. Can you identify that document? 22 go to the Amended Complaint, paragraph 97.
23 (Whereupon, an off-the-record 23 So you say -- you didn't say -- the
24 discussion was held.) 24 U.S. government said. And actually starts in
25 A. Yes. 25 96 and it's...
60 (Pages 234 to 237)
Page 238 Page 239
2 All right. So in 96 it says, "For 2 Baikonur Worldwide Limited, also a Virgin
3 example, Arivust Holdings is a Cyprus-based 3 Island company.
4 company with a bank account at Swiss bank 4 And in five transfers from on or
5 Credit Suisse." Right? 5 about May 26, 2- -- 2008, through on or about
6 A. Um-hum. Yes. 6 June 17, 2008, Baikonur, which on information
7 Q. And you say -- and, well, the 7 and belief was shared ownership with Quartell,
8 government says that it was beneficially owned 8 sent 7.1 million euros to Arivust.
9 by Stepanov, that then-husband of Stepanova, 9 And then it concludes that Stepanov
10 right? 10 received the 7.1 because, according to the
11 A. Yes. 11 Complaint, he owned Arivust right?
12 Q. All right. And then 97 says 12 A. That's what it says.
13 there -- "On February 5, 2008, there was a 13 Q. Okay. And that information -- does
14 wire transfer route -- routed through the 14 that information come from this letter -- what
15 Southern District of New York, the Banca 15 -- what is this? -- which is -- been marked
16 de Economii account transferred 726,000 to an 16 as Exhibit 15.
17 account at a Latvian bank in the name of 17 A. I -- I'm not able to
18 Nomirex Trading Limited, right? 18 cross-reference these two documents to -- to
19 A. Um-hum. 19 certify that everything there came from one
20 Q. And then in two transfers in 20 place or another.
21 February 2008 the Nomirex account transferred 21 Q. And you don't know whether this
22 almost 4 million euros to an account in the 22 information in Exhibit 15 was given to the
23 name of the British Virgin Island Company 23 U.S. government, right?
24 Quartell Trading Limited, which promptly 24 A. I don't know if it was or wasn't.
25 transferred over 150,000 of that money to 25 Well -- yeah.
Page 240 Page 241
2 Q. And this information came from 2 tell me it's legal for him to be managing
3 Mr. Pere- -- Perepilichny? 3 accounts of a private client and turn
4 A. Perepilichny. 4 information over to your organization and
5 Q. Perepilich -- 5 that's legal in Russia?
6 A. Perepilichny. 6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. I'm sorry. I'll have trouble 7 Q. Are you -- would you be concerned
8 saying it. 8 if it wasn't legal?
9 And who was he? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. He was a whistle-blower from 10 Q. But you didn't explore whether it
11 Russia. 11 was legal.
12 Q. So he was a whistle-blower. That's 12 Is that true? You didn't explore
13 your description of him? 13 whether it was legal?
14 A. Yes. 14 A. This had nothing to do with Russia.
15 Q. What's his first name? 15 Q. Well, he was managing the accounts
16 A. Alexander. 16 with --
17 Q. Right. And what job did he have in 17 A. He was managing the accounts of --
18 Russia? 18 in Switzerland.
19 A. He was some type of finan- -- 19 Q. I see. Well, we certainly know
20 financier. 20 that Swiss banking information is secret,
21 Q. And he got the information from 21 right?
22 somebody else, right? 22 A. Right.
23 A. I believe he got the -- was 23 Q. And he gave you information, right,
24 managing the accounts of Stepanova. 24 banking information?
25 Q. And so was it -- you were going to 25 A. Correct.
61 (Pages 238 to 241)
Page 242 Page 243
2 Q. So you know it's illegal when you 2 business. You can just give up client
3 got it. Isn't that true? 3 information and it's legal to anybody in the
4 A. No. 4 world?
5 Q. Swiss banking information is 5 A. If it's not your client.
6 private and subject to privacy laws. He gives 6 Q. How many -- but this was his
7 you the information. But what makes it legal 7 client.
8 then? 8 A. He didn't -- are you a- -- so
9 A. For who? 9 could -- could you rephrase the question,
10 Q. For you to possess it. 10 please.
11 A. We didn't disclose any confidential 11 Q. You're in finance business. You've
12 secrets. 12 been in it for how many years?
13 Q. You didn't disclose any 13 A. Since 1992.
14 confidential secrets? What's this letter all 14 Q. So a lot of years.
15 about? 15 If you have client information, you
16 A. This is a letter of complaint to 16 can just give it up to anybody and it's legal?
17 the Swiss -- to the Swiss government. 17 A. I didn't say that.
18 Q. He disclosed it to you. Isn't that 18 Q. You know it's illegal?
19 illegal? 19 A. For who?
20 A. I don't know. 20 Q. For you to give up client
21 Q. And you didn't explore whether it 21 information.
22 was legal or not? 22 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
23 A. I assumed it was legal. 23 A. I wasn't giving any client
24 Q. You assumed it was legal. Even 24 information.
25 though it was Swiss -- you're in the finance 25 Q. You know the law because you
Page 244 Page 245
2 participated in the industry for years. Your 2 Q. Isn't that the situation?
3 client information is confidential. Isn't 3 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
4 that true? 4 A. Could you rephrase the question,
5 A. My client information is. 5 please.
6 Q. And his client information, 6 Q. No.
7 Mr. Perepilichny's client information was 7 MR. KIM: Okay.
8 private to him and his client. Isn't that 8 Q. You knew it was illegal for him to
9 true? 9 give up the information.
10 A. I don't know what his arrangements 10 A. Is that a question?
11 were with his client. 11 Q. Yes.
12 Q. You think his arrangement was that 12 A. It sounded look a statement.
13 he could just give up what you're claiming is 13 Q. Did you know it was illegal for him
14 information about a fraud to you and it's 14 to give up the information?
15 legal for him to do that? 15 A. No.
16 A. I didn't do a legal -- I didn't do 16 Q. All right. And that's your --
17 a legal analysis. 17 you're under oath and you're sticking with
18 Q. Are you really serious about this? 18 that answer.
19 Come one. Do we have to fence about this? 19 A. I didn't know -- I didn't even
20 You knew it was illegal to receive -- for him 20 know -- yes -- that that was --
21 to give up the information, and maybe you had 21 Q. You didn't even think about it,
22 a little thought about whether it was legal 22 right? You were thrilled to get it. Private
23 for you to receive the information, but you 23 information from a private citizen, and you
24 didn't do anything to find out. 24 were thrilled to get it. Isn't that true?
25 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 25 A. What's the question?
62 (Pages 242 to 245)
Page 246 Page 247
2 Q. You were thrilled to get it, 2 Q. I'll do it one more time, but
3 weren't you? 3 you're just fencing and we both know that you
4 A. The question was I -- was I 4 know the answer to this.
5 thrilled to get it? 5 It was illegal for Mr. Perepilichny
6 Q. Yes. 6 to give up that information from a private
7 A. I was -- it was a breakthrough in 7 client to you. True?
8 our investigation to get this information. 8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Right. And you knew it was illegal 9 Q. And you knew it was illegal for you
10 for him to give it up, and it was illegal for 10 to obtain the information. Isn't that true?
11 you to receive it, but you didn't care because 11 A. No.
12 he's a whistle-blower and that makes it all 12 Q. But you did nothing to find out
13 okay. Right? 13 whether it was legal or illegal, correct?
14 MR. KIM: Objection to form to the 14 A. We assumed it was legal.
15 multiple questions. 15 Q. How could it possibly be legal in
16 A. Could you rephrase the question and 16 your industry?
17 break them down into simple questions. 17 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
18 Q. Because, according to you, he's a 18 Q. How could it possibly be legal in
19 whistle-blower, you were happy to get 19 your industry for Mr. Perepilichny to give up
20 illegally obtained information, right? 20 client information?
21 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 21 A. Is there another way you can
22 A. Could you rephrase the question, 22 rephrase that question?
23 please. 23 Q. No.
24 Q. No. Can you answer it? 24 A. The answer is many ways.
25 A. I don't understand the question. 25 Q. Okay. So you pass the in --
Page 248 Page 249
2 information along to the Swiss authorities, 2 requirements in connection with corporate
3 right? And you made -- your lawyers made an 3 registrations."
4 argument on your behalf about why this showed 4 You see where I'm reading?
5 it was money from the $230 million fraud, 5 A. I do.
6 right? 6 Q. You registered companies in the
7 A. We've -- the -- the lawyers 7 BVI?
8 representing Hermitage filed a complaint with 8 A. I have.
9 the Swiss attorney general on the 28th of 9 Q. For the purpose of money
10 January, 2011, alleging money laundering in 10 laundering?
11 relation to the $230 million. 11 A. No.
12 Q. All right. So let's go to page 3 12 Q. So not everybody who registers
13 of the letter. 13 companies in the BVI are for -- engaged in
14 MR. KIM: Talking about 14 money laundering, right?
15 Exhibit 15? That letter? 15 A. Yes.
16 MR. CYMROT: Yes, that's -- 16 Q. So how did you establish that
17 MR. KIM: Okay. 17 Mr. Stepanov had an interest in Aikate?
18 MR. CYMROT: Yes. 18 A. I'd have to go back to the back of
19 BY MR. CYMROT: 19 the Complaint to find the documents. Would
20 Q. So you describe -- your lawyers 20 you like me to do that?
21 describe red flags: Aikate was established as 21 Q. Yes.
22 a shell company in the British Virgin Islands 22 A. I'm on page 2326 of 2- -- I'm
23 on 29 January 2007. BVI is a jurisdiction 23 sorry. I don't know how to refer you to
24 that's considered to be a high risk for money 24 pages. Is it on the right-hand side or the
25 laundering due it's minimal due diligence 25 left-hand side?
63 (Pages 246 to 249)
Page 250 Page 251
2 MR. LEVINE: The left-hand side. 2 of this company."
3 Q. The left-hand side. 3 Q. So where did you get this document?
4 A. On the left-hand side would be 4 A. Alexander Perepilichny.
5 0002438. 5 Q. Did you pay him anything for that?
6 Q. 2438. Okay. Thank you. 6 A. No.
7 All right. And how does this 7 Q. Anybody pay him anything for that?
8 establish that? 8 A. No.
9 A. This is a document from Aikate 9 Q. And how do you know he didn't
10 Properties signed by the director saying, 10 create this document?
11 "Interior service. I herewith confirm in -- 11 A. We don't know for sure whether he
12 in confidence and on the understanding that 12 did or didn't.
13 this statement is made on the basis of 13 Q. Okay. And the signatures, you
14 information data which I have with respect to 14 don't know whether they are real people or
15 the underwritten company. As on date of this 15 real signatures?
16 letter, that name and citizenship, Mr. Vladlen 16 A. I -- I don't know.
17 Stepanov, Russian Federation, passport details 17 Q. So he gives you a document out of
18 51 No. 2034225 DD 16122003, date of birth 17 18 the blue, and you're going to rely upon that,
19 July 2 -- 1962, is the sole and ultimate 19 right?
20 beneficial owner of Aikate Properties Inc., a 20 A. No.
21 company incorporated in the British Virgin 21 Q. All right. So then how did you
22 Islands, and that the above-referenced company 22 determine whether it was an authentic
23 isn't involved in any money-laundering 23 document?
24 activities to the best of our knowledge. No 24 A. We tried to test different
25 action has been taken to wind up the affairs 25 documents that he gave to us that could be
Page 252 Page 253
2 tested, to see whether they were authentic, to 2 document?
3 make a generalization about everything he 3 Q. No. I don't want you to take the
4 provided to us. 4 time.
5 Q. All right. So what did you test? 5 You have, you claim, records from
6 A. We were given information by 6 Moscow databases showing Ms. Stepanova --
7 Alexander Perepilichny about the real estate 7 Stepanova owned property in Moscow. Is that
8 in Dubai that belongs to Vladlen Stepanov, and 8 what you're saying?
9 we were able to cross-reference that with 9 A. No.
10 Dubai property databases. 10 Q. That Mr. Stepanov owned property in
11 Q. Anything else? 11 Moscow?
12 A. We were given information about the 12 A. We've -- we have records that show
13 property that Vladlen Stepanov and his wife, 13 his properties registered to the name of his
14 Olga Stepanova, owned in Moscow, and we were 14 mother.
15 able to cross-reference that with property 15 Q. His mother. And there's no record
16 databases. 16 of Ms. Stepanova having any property in
17 Q. And the Moscow property databases, 17 Moscow, correct?
18 that's nowhere in this exhibit, right? 18 A. No.
19 A. I don't know. 19 Q. The assumption is that they're
20 Q. You want to check? I mean, I 20 married, that they share assets, they get
21 don't -- I haven't seen it. I've seen Dubai 21 along, and that somehow she will someday
22 records that are towards the back here in the 22 benefit from this property. That's the
23 name Mr. Stepanov, but I haven't seen anything 23 assumption?
24 related to Moscow. 24 A. Is that a question?
25 A. Would you like me to go through the 25 Q. Yes.
64 (Pages 250 to 253)
Page 254 Page 255
2 A. What's the question? 2 A. Okay.
3 Q. What's your assumption? 3 Q. So you use Cyprus, correct, as a
4 A. Our assumption is that the 4 jurisdiction for corporations, right?
5 property -- the properties in Dubai, the 5 A. Correct.
6 properties in Moscow, and the bank accounts 6 Q. And you've told us that you don't
7 are all collectively owned by Olga Stepanova 7 use it for money laundering, right?
8 and her husband Vladlen. 8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And there's no fact that would 9 Q. And So people who use Cyprus don't
10 support that assumption? That's just your 10 necessarily use it for money laundering,
11 assumption? 11 correct?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Okay. So there's another -- going 13 Q. All right. So Arivust -- there's a
14 back to page 4, there's another reference 14 similar document in the back for Arivust that
15 to -- there's a reference to Arivust. 15 you got from Mr. Perepilichny?
16 "Cyprus is another jurisdiction 16 A. Correct.
17 that's considered to be high risk for money 17 Q. And your assumption is that it's a
18 laundering due to it's low due diligence 18 legitimate document even though you can't do
19 requirements in connection with corporate 19 anything to confirm it other than what you've
20 registrations." 20 described already, right?
21 A. Could you just alert me to where 21 A. It's -- when we filed the
22 you reading from. 22 Complaint; that's correct.
23 Q. Paragraph 2. 23 Q. Is there anything you can do now?
24 A. Okay. 24 MR. MONTELEONI: A moment to
25 Q. No. 2. 25 discuss regarding privilege, please.
Page 256 Page 257
2 MR. CYMROT: Take a break. 2 are controlled by the same entities."
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3 Wow, wait a minute. We had a
4 3:26 p.m. We are off the record. 4 question pending and a consideration of --
5 (Whereupon, at this time, a short 5 MR. CYMROT: Could you read back
6 break was taken.) 6 my last question before the break.
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 7 (Whereupon, the referred to
8 3:39 p.m. We are back on the record. 8 question was read back by the
9 BY MR. CYMROT: 9 Reporter.)
10 Q. Mr. Browder, I want you to refer to 10 MR. CYMROT: Is there anything
11 Exhibit 15, page 4. That's where we were. 11 that -- (inaudible.)
12 The paragraph -- at the end of paragraph 3. 12 Well, I asked him the source of
13 Paragraph 3 refers to two companies, Quartell 13 information and you were going to
14 and Baikonur. All right? 14 consider --
15 And you're saying -- it says here, 15 MR. MONTELEONI: It may make sense
16 "Our clients" -- that's Hermitage, right? -- 16 to just re-ask the question. I don't
17 "have discovered that both of these accounts 17 know that I remember the specifics.
18 are controlled by the same entities." 18 MR. CYMROT: What was it? Oh.
19 You see that? 19 Okay. Yes.
20 A. Could you just give me a better -- 20 BY MR. CYMROT:
21 Q. Yeah. It said -- 21 Q. We were talking about Arivust, and
22 A. Which paragraph is it. 22 the question is: Do you have any recent
23 Q. Paragraph No. 3. 23 information that would show that Mr. Stepanov
24 A. Okay. 24 controls Arivust?
25 Q. It says, "Both of these accounts 25 A. Not to my personal knowledge.
65 (Pages 254 to 257)
Page 258 Page 259
2 Q. Does your team have information? 2 Q. Did you dis -- ever discuss this
3 A. I'm not -- I'm not aware. 3 with U.S. Attorney's Office?
4 Q. Did you provide any information 4 A. No.
5 beyond the information in this letter to the 5 Q. All right. So then we go down to
6 U.S. attorney? 6 what is described here as Step 1: "The elicit
7 A. Not that I'm aware of. 7 proceeds were first transferred to Quartell's
8 Q. Could you speak up. 8 account. A payment of 2 million euros was
9 A. Not -- not that I'm aware of. 9 made on January 23rd from a company
10 Q. All right. Okay. So we go to 10 incorporated New Zealand Bristoll Export
11 paragraph 3. Then it says, "Our client had -- 11 Limited."
12 our clients have discovered that both of these 12 Do you see that?
13 accounts are controlled by the same entities." 13 A. Yes.
14 We're referring to Quartell and 14 Q. And I think you can find that
15 Baikonur. I don't see any information in this 15 information in the exhibits on page 75. So
16 letter or the attachments that would show that 16 what's the Bates number? 2478.
17 both of these accounts are controlled by the 17 Would you take a look at that?
18 same entities. 18 A. Sure.
19 Do you have any facts that would 19 Q. 230108. Do you see that?
20 demonstrate that Quartell and Baikonur are 20 A. Yes.
21 controlled by the same entity? 21 Q. So what is this document? It
22 A. No, not to my personal knowledge. 22 says -- just let me read what it says.
23 Q. Does your team have any 23 There's -- appears to be the letterhead of
24 information? 24 Credit Suisse. There's a current account
25 A. I'm not sure. 25 number, but a name or something above the
Page 260 Page 261
2 current account number -- below the current 2 Q. All right. So Bristoll Export
3 account number is crossed out. And it says 3 Limited is not anywhere on your other charts.
4 "Extract of account 01.01.2008 to 31.01.2008." 4 So what company is that? Who owns that?
5 So what is this document? 5 A. I'm not sure.
6 A. It's a Credit Suisse statement. 6 Q. And how did that company get the
7 Q. And who typed in "extract of 7 $2 million --
8 account"? 8 A. I don't know.
9 A. I don't know. 9 Q. -- 2 million euros?
10 Q. And who crossed out the 10 A. I don't know.
11 information? 11 Q. So you don't know what the path of
12 A. Perepilichny. 12 the money went to demonstrate that this came
13 Q. Do you know why he crossed it out? 13 from the $230 million theft of the Russian
14 Did he tell you why? 14 Treasury right?
15 A. No. 15 A. Right.
16 Q. All right. So this supposedly is 16 Q. So is this another assumption that,
17 money that came to Quartell from the 17 because there's $2 million that came in on
18 $230 million fraud, right? 18 January 28th it must be from the Russian
19 A. I -- I assume so. I'm not -- I'm 19 Treasury?
20 not a specialist. 20 A. No.
21 Q. No, but isn't that what that says? 21 Q. So then how do you say this is the
22 Isn't that what the letter says? 22 elicit proceeds?
23 The whole point is that Stepanov 23 A. I didn't do the tracing.
24 got money from the $230 million fraud, right? 24 Q. And you have no understanding of
25 A. Um-hum. Yes. 25 the tracing conducted by your team?
66 (Pages 258 to 261)
Page 262 Page 263
3 Q. So you have no explanation for how, 3 Q. And you haven't given us any
4 somewhere, 2 million euros shows up, 4 documents that would show that, right?
5 transferred from Bristoll Export to a company 5 A. I don't know.
6 called Quartell, and you have no way, as far 6 Q. So then tracing through this or
7 as you know, of tying it to the $230 million? 7 following this letter, there are two more
8 A. I'm sorry. What's the question? 8 transfers that are shown on page 79, which is
9 Q. You have no way of tying this 9 Bates No. 2482. This is from Nomirex. It's
10 transaction, shown on this page, which is 10 1.999 million. I assume, although there's no
11 Bates No. 2478, to the $230 million? 11 denomination here, from the letter it says
12 A. Personally, I don't. 12 it's euros.
13 Q. Do you know whether members of your 13 So how did Nomirex get money from
14 team have it? 14 the $230 million?
15 A. I would assume so. 15 A. I have no personal knowledge.
16 Q. Have you given it to U.S. attorney? 16 Q. And, of course, if you can't trace
17 A. What? 17 this back to the $230 million, the whole idea
18 Q. The information tying this to the 18 that Mr. Stepanov got money from the
19 $230 million? 19 $230 million falls apart, doesn't it?
20 A. I'm -- I'm confused. What -- 20 A. I'm sorry. What's the question?
21 what -- what -- what are we tying to the 21 Q. Isn't it true that, if you can't
22 $230 million? 22 trace money into Bristoll Trading and Nomirex
23 Q. The payment from Bristoll Export 23 Trading from the $230 million, that the whole
24 Limited to Quar- -- what you are claiming is 24 idea that Mr. Stepanov got money from the
25 the Quartell account. 25 $230 million falls apart? Nothing on these
Page 264 Page 265
2 documents that shows it comes from the 2 A. I'm not a specialist on money
3 230 million. 3 tracing.
4 A. Is that a question or a statement? 4 Q. So you have no idea how it works?
5 Q. Ask it again: Is there -- if you 5 A. I didn't say that.
6 don't have any evidence that Bristoll Trading 6 Q. Well, explain to me how it works.
7 and Nomirex Trading received money from the 7 Let's not use the letter of the documents or
8 $230 million, there's no basis for -- to say 8 whatever. Explain how you get money from
9 that Mr. Stepanov received money from the 9 $230 million into an account that you say is
10 230 million? 10 controlled by Mr. Stepanov.
11 A. That's incorrect. 11 A. I have a team of people who work
12 Q. What's the basis? 12 for me who are specialists in this area, who I
13 A. I don't have a basis, but other 13 trust, who are credible, who put this
14 people do. 14 information together.
15 Q. You're the one that took this to 15 Q. And you have no idea how they
16 the U.S. Attorney's Office. You've taken this 16 bridged the gap between the 230 and Bristoll
17 public. You've talked about it all over the 17 and Nomirex?
18 world. You have no idea how this works? 18 A. That's correct.
19 Is that true? 19 Q. And none of them are accountants by
20 A. Could you rephrase the question. 20 the way, right?
21 Q. No. You have no idea how it works? 21 A. There are no accountants on our
22 MR. KIM: Object to the form. 22 team.
23 What's the "this"? 23 Q. And none of them ever testified in
24 MR. CYMROT: How this tracing 24 a U.S. proceeding about tracing money, right?
25 works. 25 A. That's correct.
67 (Pages 262 to 265)
Page 266 Page 267
2 Q. Nobody -- none of them have 2 criminal case against anybody trying a case --
3 testified anywhere in the world about tracing 3 charges against anybody based upon
4 money, right? 4 Mr. Kleiner's testimony?
5 A. That's incorrect. 5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Who's testified about tracing 6 Q. Well, okay. So you get money
7 money? 7 from -- your team gets money from Bristoll and
8 A. Vadim Kleiner has testified. 8 Nomirex into an account with a name crossed
9 Q. And where has he testified? 9 out that they tell us is the Quartell account,
10 A. In Switzerland. 10 but they don't have any money going to
11 Q. Do you have that testimony? 11 Mr. Stepanov based upon that. Instead,
12 A. It's -- no. I don't believe we're 12 there's another series of account statements
13 allowed to keep it. 13 that start on page 81, which is deposition
14 Q. Did you give it to the U.S. 14 exhibit -- I'm sorry -- Bates No. 2484 and
15 Attorney's Office? 15 No. 15, Exhibit 15, and these accounts -- do
16 A. No. 16 you know what these accounts are?
17 Q. And he's testified about tracing 17 A. Yes.
18 what money? 18 Q. What are they? Starting on 2484
19 A. The money you're referring to here, 19 and going over the next subsequent pages, what
20 I believe. 20 are they?
21 Q. This -- this exact money? 21 A. 2484, 2485, and 2486 are bank
22 A. I don't know. 22 details that come from Citibank.
23 Q. Have you seen his testimony? 23 Q. So they're bank details of -- of
24 A. No. 24 what? I -- I read here Raiffeisen
25 Q. Have the Swiss gone forward with a 25 Zentralbank, with a Z, account name. So where
Page 268 Page 269
2 did you get -- I mean, what -- first, what is 2 say is a Quartell account, and then the next
3 it, if you know? 3 thing they say, if we look at the letter, is
4 A. These are account statements. 4 that "wire transfer statistics obtained as a
5 Q. For Raiffeisen Zentralbank? 5 result of the court's ruling show that the
6 A. Held at Citibank New York. 6 following payments were made to Bristoll and
7 Q. Okay. And what does Raiffeisen 7 Nomirex immediately prior to the payments to
8 Zentralbank have to do with this case? 8 Quartell."
9 A. I'm not sure. I think they were -- 9 A. Could you just alert me to what
10 they were -- they were the correspondent bank. 10 page your on.
11 They were the correspondent bank for Universal 11 Q. Yes. Page 5 of the letter, Bates
12 Savings Bank, Intercommerz Bank. I can't 12 No. 2397.
13 remember which one. 13 A. And which paragraph?
14 Q. Okay. Well, we got 6 million euros 14 Q. It's the one with the three
15 into Quartell, and I don't see any transfers 15 bullets.
16 from Quartell into this account, at least 16 Have you read it?
17 nothing of substance. Am I missing something? 17 A. Yes.
18 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Okay. So they say, "Bristoll and
19 Q. Well, take a look. Do you see any 19 Quartell, immediately prior to the payments to
20 transfers from Quartell? 20 Quartell" -- "Bristoll and Nom- -- Nomirex,
21 A. I'm not sure what -- what to be 21 immediately prior to the payments to Quartell,
22 looking for here. 22 got $498,955 U.S. transferred to Bristoll from
23 Q. Well, your team is saying that the 23 Roland Management Limited."
24 money went from the Russian Treasury, somehow 24 Do you see that?
25 got to Bristoll and Nomirex and into what they 25 A. Yes.
68 (Pages 266 to 269)
Page 270 Page 271
2 Q. And that's a U.K. company. 2 answer these questions?
3 What does Roland Management Limited 3 A. My team.
4 have to do with this case? 4 Q. Who on your team?
5 A. I don't know. 5 A. Lawyers and Vadim.
6 Q. And why is it relevant that 6 Q. So if we go back to the account
7 Bristoll got money from Roland Management 7 statements.
8 Limited? 8 A. Which page?
9 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Well, wait a minute. It goes
10 Q. And then on February 5th the amount 10 "Step 2" -- the same letter, page 5 -- "Four
11 of 491,585 was transferred to Bristoll from 11 months after the funds were transferred to
12 Bunicon. 12 Quartell, sim- -- simmer -- similar amounts
13 Do you see that? 13 were transferred from Baikonur account to
14 A. Yes. 14 Arivust."
15 Q. Why is it relevant that, prior to 15 So how do you get the money from
16 Bristoll and Nomirex making payments to 16 Quartell to Baikonur?
17 Quartell, it got money, less than $500,000 17 A. I don't know.
18 from Bris- -- from Bunicon? 18 Q. All right. And I think we've had
19 A. I don't know. 19 enough. You're not going to be able to help
20 Q. And on the 5th, the amount of 20 us with any of this? Fill the gaps that
21 $726,000 was transferred to Nomirex from 21 don't and aren't explained in these documents,
22 Bunicon. 22 right?
23 Why is that relevant? 23 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
24 A. I don't know. 24 MR. CYMROT: That's editorial.
25 Q. And who would know -- be able to 25 I'll withdraw it.
Page 272 Page 273
2 Q. So if you can go to Bates 2 Quartell and payments to Arivust, right?
3 No. 2489 -- 2488. 3 A. I don't know.
4 Do you know what this document is? 4 Q. Well, I'm just looking at the
5 A. Bank statement. 5 document.
6 Q. From what account? 6 A. I see two payments on the 26th of
7 A. Credit Suisse. 7 May, 2008, for 1.5 million to Arivust, and it
8 Q. What account? Who's the account 8 looks like a payment from -- I'm sorry -- a
9 holder? 9 payment to Ar- -- and a payment to and payment
10 A. I don't know. 10 from Quartell on the 26th of May.
11 Q. It's crossed out here, right? 11 Q. 130,000?
12 Correct? 12 A. 130,000.
13 A. Correct. 13 Q. All right. And the 1.5 million
14 Q. Where did you get this document? 14 that appears to cover the payment from Arivust
15 A. Alexander Perepilichny. 15 is a foreign exchange transaction outright
16 Q. So there's a payment made from 16 short, meaning it's a loan from the bank,
17 whatever account this is to Arivust, but you 17 right? Is that how you interpret that?
18 don't know how the money got into this 18 A. No.
19 account, right? 19 Q. "Foreign exchange outright short."
20 A. I don't know. 20 How would you interpret that?
21 Q. You don't know. And you can't 21 A. I would -- I'm not an expert on
22 trace this -- you don't know how to trace this 22 bank state -- Credit Suisse bank statements.
23 to the $230 million fraud, right? 23 So I'd rather not try to interpret it.
24 A. I don't know. 24 Q. But whatever that is, that seems to
25 Q. So they're payments here to 25 cover the 1.5 that was made to Arivust?
69 (Pages 270 to 273)
Page 274 Page 275
2 A. I don't know. 2 A. Which -- which ones are you asking
3 Q. So we don't know where that came 3 me about?
4 from then, right? 4 Q. Can you give me any or -- anymore
5 A. I don't know. 5 information about where the money came, for
6 Q. There's nothing showing this money 6 instance, on the --
7 coming from Quartell and then being 7 MR. CYMROT: No. Keep that.
8 transferred from whatever account this is to 8 Q. 2491, where did the money come from
9 Arivust, right? 9 that went to Aikate Properties?
10 A. I don't know. 10 250,000-something?
11 Q. So there's no chain here that you 11 A. Which payment are we looking at
12 can perceive, right? 12 now?
13 A. I don't know. 13 Q. 2491.
14 Q. So the next series of documents -- 14 A. And which one on -- on 2491?
15 you wouldn't -- you don't have any idea what 15 Q. The first transaction at the top.
16 any of these transactions are, right? 16 A. So payment order, electronic
17 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 17 banking, Aikate Properties, debit $250,000.
18 Which transactions? 18 Q. Right. That's --
19 MR. CYMROT: The ones that are on 19 A. It would have been a -- been a
20 the Credit Suisse bank statements for 20 to -- this looks like a payment to Aikate
21 the account where the name has been 21 Properties on the first of July 2009.
22 crossed out. 22 Q. Right. Do you know where that
23 A. Which transaction are you referring 23 money came from?
24 to? 24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. 2488, 2489. 25 Q. Okay. So the next series of
Page 276 Page 277
2 documents starts on Credit Sui- -- Suisse 2 Q. June 8th, for the benefit -- keep
3 documents that look like transfer -- wire 3 going -- benefit of Mr. Stepanov. No mention
4 transfers, right? 4 of Stepanova, right?
5 A. What page? 5 A. Correct.
6 Q. 2493. So that's a transfer of 6 Q. September, same thing. Investment
7 629,000 to something called Emerald Palace 7 of building. It says "for the benefit of
8 Group Limited, right? 8 Mr. Stepanov," correct?
9 A. Yes. 9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And the payment is for the benefit 10 Q. Appears to be a unit in the
11 of Mr. Stepanov, right? 11 building.
12 A. That's correct. 12 Then you get to the next one, Sunny
13 Q. Makes no mention of Stepanova, 13 Beach Properties, 25th of April 2007, right?
14 right? 14 A. Correct.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. So that's before the $230 million
16 Q. And the next payment on March 6th, 16 fraud, right?
17 that's for the benefit of Mr. Stepanov, right? 17 A. Yes.
18 A. March 26th. 18 Q. Mr. Stepanov -- and this doesn't
19 Q. Next page. 19 mention Mr. Stepanov. Sunny Beach Properties,
20 A. March 26th. You said "March 6th." 20 right?
21 Q. I meant March 26th. 21 A. Yes.
22 A. Okay. 22 Q. There's one in October of '07.
23 Q. It's for the benefit of 23 Doesn't mention anybody other than Sunny Beach
24 Mr. Stepanov, correct? 24 Properties.
25 A. That's correct. 25 Do you know who owns Sunny Beach
70 (Pages 274 to 277)
Page 278 Page 279
2 Properties? 2 attached to it.
3 A. I'm not sure. 3 So before the fraud, he's spending
4 Q. Well, if you go to the next page, 4 substantial amount of money buying real
5 Sunny Beach Properties, details of payment, 5 estate, right?
6 payment for real estate for Mr. Stepanov, 6 A. Correct.
7 right? 7 Q. And none of this ever mentions
8 A. Yes. 8 Ms. Stepanova, right?
9 Q. So you have a couple of 9 A. So far, no.
10 transactions where he's buying substantial 10 Q. So far. Is there any that mess --
11 apartments -- $252,000, $277,000 -- before the 11 mention Ms. Stepanova?
12 $230 million fraud occurred, right? 12 A. Not that I'm aware of.
13 A. No. 13 The next one --
14 Q. And he continues that afterwards? 14 Q. Keep going.
15 A. On page 90 -- 2499. This was 15 A. The next one mentions Elena
16 April 15, 2008. 16 Anisimova, who is the deputy of Ms. Stepanova
17 Q. Right. 17 in the Tax Office No. 28.
18 A. The fraud occurred in December of 18 Q. Okay. But there's nothing there
19 2007. 19 that mentions Ms. Stepanova either, right?
20 Q. Yes. But the two prior ones were 20 A. This woman was also involved in the
21 March -- October 18, 2007, and April 25, 2007, 21 tax refunds.
22 and at that point he's spending a substantial 22 Q. So have you gone to the real estate
23 amount of money for Sunny Beach Properties. 23 records in Dubai?
24 Looks like he's buying properties, unit -- 24 A. Yes.
25 Unit 424. The other one doesn't have a unit 25 Q. Did you find any evidence of
Page 280 Page 281
2 ownership of this property in real estate -- 2 Q. And you have no facts that would
3 of the properties that Mr. Stepanov bought? 3 support that belief, correct?
4 A. There's an ownership of a property 4 A. Common sense.
5 in Dubai that he's bought. 5 Q. Your common sense?
6 Q. And is there any indication that 6 A. And a lot of other people's.
7 Ms. Stepanova has an interest in that 7 Q. There are no documents, there are
8 property? 8 no facts, other than this assumption, that
9 A. Not that I'm aware of. 9 Ms. Stepanova received anything from the
10 Q. So be to be clear, there's not a 10 $230 million fraud; isn't that true?
11 single document that you've been able to come 11 A. There's no documents with her name
12 up with anywhere where Ms. Stepanova owns a 12 on them.
13 bank account that received money from the 13 Q. And Mr. Stepanov and Ms. Stepanova
14 $230 million fraud or owns real estate from 14 are divorced, correct?
15 the $230 million fraud or has any other asset 15 A. I'm not sure.
16 that she's received from the $230 million 16 Q. Have you checked the records in
17 fraud, right? 17 Moscow?
18 A. She's not a direct recipient in any 18 A. There's some question about those
19 of the documents that we have. 19 records.
20 Q. And she's not -- and there are no 20 Q. Are there records that indicate
21 documents indicating she's an indirect 21 they are divorced?
22 recipient either; is that correct? 22 A. There are.
23 A. There's no documents, but we 23 Q. And what is the question about
24 believe that the assets that belong to her 24 those records other than the fact that you
25 husband are jointly owned by her. 25 don't like them?
71 (Pages 278 to 281)
Page 282 Page 283
2 A. The timing of the records and the 2 Q. So anything that might upset your
3 voracity of the records, but I'm not an expert 3 theory, you decide you don't need?
4 on these records. 4 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
5 Q. Is there something on the records 5 Q. Is that right?
6 that give somebody -- strike that. 6 A. Could you rephrase the question?
7 Do you have the records? 7 Q. Yes. Isn't it true that any
8 A. I don't. 8 document that might upset your theory, you
9 Q. Does your team have the records? 9 don't go and get it?
10 A. I don't know. 10 A. No.
11 Q. Don't you think if you're going to 11 Q. Well, you didn't get the divorce
12 accuse somebody of a huge fraud, that you 12 records, right?
13 ought to collect the relevant documents? 13 A. I didn't.
14 A. What's the question? 14 Q. And your team didn't, as far as you
15 Q. Don't you think that if you're 15 know?
16 going to accuse somebody, as you have, of 16 A. I just said that not to my
17 enormous fraud, you ought to collect the 17 knowledge do they have them. I didn't say
18 relevant documents? 18 they didn't.
19 A. My team has collected the relevant 19 Q. Well, you don't know they have
20 documents, which were submitted to the Swiss 20 them, right?
21 prosecutor and submitted to the New York 21 A. I don't know. Not to my knowledge.
22 District Attorney's office about this fraud. 22 Q. Right. Mr. Stepanov has challenged
23 Q. But you haven't gotten the divorce 23 you, sir, in court, hasn't he?
24 records? 24 A. I've never been to court with
25 A. I'm not -- not to my knowledge. 25 Mr. Stepanov.
Page 284 Page 285
2 Q. He's sued a reporter who 2 your website?
3 republished the information on your website; 3 A. That's correct.
4 isn't that true? 4 Q. Are you aware of any information
5 A. No. 5 that the U.S. Attorney's Office has collected
6 Q. No? 6 beyond the information in Exhibit 46 related
7 A. No. 7 to the Stepanov -- Stepanov payment?
8 Q. You're not aware of that? 8 A. Could you show me Exhibit 46.
9 A. He didn't sue a reporter. 9 Q. That's the one we've been looking
10 Q. Who did he sue? 10 at. Oh, I'm sorry, my mistake. It's my
11 A. He sued an activist. 11 Tab 46, but it's Exhibit 15.
12 Q. I see. This is like a 12 A. Could you repeat the question?
13 whistleblower, another label you give people. 13 Q. Yes, thank you. Are you aware of
14 Who's this activist? 14 any information other than the information in
15 A. Aleksei Navalny. 15 Exhibit 15 that the U.S. Attorney's Office has
16 Q. And Mr. Stepanov sued 16 corrected with respect to whether Mr. Stepanov
17 Aleksei Navalny, right? 17 received funds from the $230 million fraud?
18 A. Yes. 18 A. I'm not aware.
19 Q. And it was Mr. Stepanov who -- who 19 Q. Is it your belief that the
20 won, right? 20 allegations in the Complaint were based upon
21 A. That's correct. 21 the information in Exhibit 15?
22 Q. Got a judgment for defamation 22 A. I don't know.
23 against Mr. Navalny, right? 23 Q. In your conversations with Agent
24 A. Correct. 24 Hyman, did he ever talk to you about how you
25 Q. For republishing the information on 25 trace money to Mr. Stepanov?
72 (Pages 282 to 285)
Page 286 Page 287
2 A. No. 2 legal in Russia for Mr. Kleiner to have income
3 Q. Anybody in the U.S. Attorney's 3 tax returns from of Mr. Stepanov?
4 Office have a conversation with you on that 4 A. I'm not sure.
5 subject? 5 Q. You're not sure?
6 A. Not to my recollection. 6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. According to paragraph 100 of the 7 Q. Are income tax returns public in
8 Amended Complaint -- and you've already 8 Russia?
9 referred to this -- Mr. Stepanov tax returns 9 A. I don't know.
10 show income of $38,000 basically, right? 10 Q. Did you ask Mr. Kleiner where he
11 A. I'm sorry, which paragraph is that? 11 got income tax returns?
12 Q. 100. 12 A. No.
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Because you didn't want to know?
14 Q. So Mr. Kleiner got the tax returns 14 A. No.
15 for Mr. Stepanov? 15 Q. Aren't you curious? You got
16 A. I'm not sure where they came from. 16 $38,000 from income tax returns; that's an
17 Q. I believe your book says 17 unusual fact, isn't it? It's unusual to have
18 Mr. Kleiner got them, but you don't know? 18 that kind of information, isn't it?
19 A. I'm not sure. 19 A. No.
20 Q. Let's look at in Exhibit 15, Bates 20 Q. Do you have income tax returns for
21 Nos. '2451 through '2460. 21 other people?
22 Do you know what these documents 22 A. Lots of people have income tax
23 are? 23 returns.
24 A. No. 24 Q. Lots of people have other people's
25 Q. Do you know whether it would be 25 income tax returns?
Page 288 Page 289
2 A. Sure. Politicians, et cetera. 2 A. My firm did on my behalf.
3 Q. Politicians have other people's 3 Q. Did they report foreign income?
4 income tax returns? 4 A. I don't know.
5 A. No, politicians' income tax 5 Q. In the United States, you know we
6 returns. 6 have to report foreign income, right?
7 Q. Lots of people have politicians' 7 A. I don't know.
8 income tax returns; Mr. Stepanov is not a 8 Q. You gave up your U.S. citizenship
9 politician, is he? 9 in 1998, right?
10 A. No. 10 A. Correct.
11 Q. What business is he in? 11 Q. Just as the laws about reporting
12 A. I'm not sure. 12 foreign income came into effect; is that
13 Q. Did you investigate what business 13 right?
14 he was -- he was in? 14 A. I don't know.
15 A. My team did. 15 Q. Why did you give up your U.S.
16 Q. And what did they discover? 16 citizenship in 1998?
17 A. He was a smalltime businessman. 17 A. I immigrated to the U.K. ten years
18 Q. "Smalltime" being what? 18 earlier.
19 A. Having average earnings of -- with 19 Q. So the U.K. required you to give up
20 his wife of $38,000 a year. 20 your U.S. citizenship?
21 Q. Do income tax returns in Russia 21 A. No.
22 require reporting of foreign income? 22 Q. So why did you give up your U.S.
23 A. I'm not a Russian accountant. 23 citizenship?
24 Q. Do you file income tax returns in 24 A. Personal reasons.
25 Russia? 25 Q. And what are those personal
73 (Pages 286 to 289)
Page 290 Page 291
2 reasons? 2 A. Yes.
3 A. My family was persecuted during the 3 Q. What kind of persecution did you
4 McCarthy era. 4 face?
5 Q. And your father is the head of the 5 A. My grandmother was sick with cancer
6 economics department where, what university? 6 and the U.S. Government tried to deport her to
7 A. He's not -- 7 Russia when she was dying.
8 Q. Where was he? 8 Q. What year was that?
9 A. My father was a professor of 9 A. In 1950 something.
10 mathematics at the University of Chicago. 10 Q. I see. And so 1998, this all came
11 Q. Was the head of the department at 11 back as a rush of emotion and you decided to
12 some point? 12 give up your U.S. citizenship?
13 A. Yes. 13 A. No.
14 Q. And your uncle, what position did 14 Q. So as far as you're concerned, it
15 he have? 15 was fine for Mr. Kleiner to have
16 A. He was a mathematician at 16 Mr. Stepanova's -- Mr. Stepanov's tax returns,
17 Princeton. 17 right, nothing illegal about that, as far as
18 Q. Head of the department at one 18 you know?
19 point? 19 A. No.
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. Let me ask you this: Money comes
21 Q. But your concern that your family 21 out of the treasury, Russian Treasury, and
22 was persecuted, but they made it to the head 22 goes to USB and Intercommerz, right?
23 of the department of two prestigious 23 A. Yes.
24 universities and that's why you gave up your 24 Q. Who controlled the money at that
25 U.S. citizenship? 25 point?
Page 292 Page 293
2 A. I don't know. 2 U.S. citizens or residents involved in the
3 Q. At what point -- but once it's in 3 theft?
4 USB and it's in Intercommerz, the fraud is 4 A. I don't know.
5 accomplished, as far as you're concerned, 5 Q. You're not aware of any?
6 right? 6 A. I don't know.
7 A. I don't know. 7 Q. You're not aware of any -- you are
8 Q. Wasn't it the organization that 8 not aware of any U.S. citizens or residents
9 transferred the money to those two banks? 9 involved in the theft, are you?
10 A. Yes. 10 A. I just don't know.
11 Q. So at that point they have control 11 Q. Well, do you have theories about
12 over the money, right? 12 U.S. citizens or residents who are involved in
13 A. I don't know. 13 the theft?
14 Q. Well, under your theory at what 14 A. No.
15 point does the organization get control over 15 Q. And there are no events to steal
16 the money? 16 the money that occurred in the United States,
17 A. I don't know. 17 right?
18 Q. And you don't know who's directing 18 A. I don't know.
19 the money? 19 Q. You're not aware of any, right?
20 A. I don't know. 20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Well, do you know why the transfers 21 Q. And as far as you know, the people
22 were made further down the line to other 22 who stole the money were Russians? As far as
23 accounts? 23 you know, the people you named were all
24 A. I don't know. 24 Russian, right?
25 Q. To your knowledge, were there any 25 A. Yes. Yes.
74 (Pages 290 to 293)
Page 294 Page 295
2 Q. And the acts to steal the money all 2 A. I do.
3 occurred in Russia, as far as you know, right? 3 Q. You were at The White House that
4 A. No. 4 day, February 4, 2014; do you remember that?
5 Q. To steal the money? In other 5 A. No.
6 words, to get the money out of the treasury, 6 Q. You were at The White House at the
7 there are acts that occurred outside of 7 beginning of 2014?
8 Russia? 8 A. I don't remember.
9 A. In the Amended Complaint and the 9 Q. How many times have you been to The
10 original Complaint there's a whole series of 10 White House?
11 arguments about planning of the -- of the 11 A. Once.
12 fraud in Cyprus. 12 Q. When was that?
13 Q. I see. Okay. There are no 13 A. 2000, 2002, something like that.
14 planning events described in the United States 14 Q. Okay. We'll have to pull out some
15 though? 15 records. All right. We'll go back to the
16 A. I don't know. 16 Subpoena.
17 Q. None that you know of? 17 (Browder Exhibit 16, Subpoena was
18 A. I don't know. 18 marked for identification, as of this
19 Q. You received a Subpoena from the 19 date.)
20 United States in February of 2014? 20 BY MR. CYMROT:
21 A. I did, yes. 21 Q. So can you identify -- what number
22 Q. We're pulling it out. Well, while 22 are we up to? What number was that?
23 we're waiting, trial was scheduled by the 23 MR. LEVINE: Sixteen.
24 judge on February 4, 2014, for the end of 24 Q. Sixteen.
25 March 2014; do you remember that? 25 It is for the record what appears
Page 296 Page 297
2 to be a Subpoena to William Browder, Hermitage 2 A. I'm sorry, where it does it say
3 Capital Management, Grafton House in London. 3 that?
4 And it calls for appearance in New York on 4 Q. UBS?
5 31st of March 2014 at 10:00 a.m., Bates 5 A. Where -- where's that?
6 Nos. '266 to '268. 6 Q. On the second page, rider.
7 Sir, do you recognize this 7 "Related to UBS Bank account held
8 document? 8 in the name of Prevezon Holding."
9 A. Yes. 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you receive this? 10 Q. Did you provide records to the
11 A. I believe so. 11 United States in response to the Subpoena?
12 Q. By e-mail? 12 A. No.
13 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. No?
14 Q. How did you get it? 14 A. No.
15 A. I don't remember. 15 Q. Do you ever provide records of UBS
16 Q. Did you have a conversation with 16 Bank accounts held by Prevezon Holdings, its
17 U.S. Attorney's Office before you received it? 17 affiliates, parents, directors or employees to
18 A. I don't remember. 18 the United States?
19 Q. You don't remember. Would you 19 A. Not to my knowledge.
20 speak up, please? 20 Q. This is the -- did you receive such
21 A. I don't remember. 21 records in connection with the Swiss
22 Q. It calls for "Please provide any 22 proceeding?
23 and all records in your possession relating to 23 A. Yes.
24 any USB [sic] Bank account held in the name of 24 Q. And didn't you turn over records
25 Prevezon Holding Ltd." 25 from the Swiss proceeding to the U.S.
75 (Pages 294 to 297)
Page 298 Page 299
2 Attorney's Office? 2 Q. You mean people can just turn over
3 A. We did. 3 records from one court proceeding to another
4 Q. And didn't they include these bank 4 on a matter in which you have been personally
5 records? 5 involved for years and not tell you?
6 A. Not to my knowledge. 6 A. Could you rephrase the question?
7 Q. What did they include? 7 Q. Yes. It's possible that your team
8 A. Different records. 8 would turn over records from the Swiss
9 Q. What records? 9 proceeding to the United States without
10 A. Records in connection with Stepanov 10 telling you?
11 and Stepanova. 11 A. I kind of doubt it, but I don't
12 Q. So you never disclosed any UBS Bank 12 know.
13 account records for Prevezon Holding to the 13 Q. So you don't think it happened?
14 United States? 14 A. I don't -- I just don't know.
15 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Do you see the next sentence, "Due
16 Q. Well, would somebody else within 16 to this ongo-" -- "Due to the ongoing nature
17 your team have done it? 17 of the investigation, we request that you do
18 A. I don't know. 18 not disclose any information related to this
19 Q. Wouldn't they tell you before they 19 Grand Jury Subpoena request or to any third
20 did it? 20 party"; do you see that?
21 A. No. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Wouldn't that be a significant 22 Q. Did you understand that you were
23 thing for you to know as the head of the 23 going to appear in front of a Grand Jury?
24 company? 24 A. I made no assumptions.
25 A. No. 25 Q. Did you agree to appear?
Page 300 Page 301
2 A. No. 2 A. Lawyers.
3 Q. Did you have conversations with 3 Q. What lawyers?
4 U.S. Attorney's Office about whether you would 4 A. I can't remember which lawyers,
5 appear? 5 I've had a lot of lawyers.
6 A. No. 6 Q. Did you talk to Brown Rudnick about
7 Q. Did anybody have conversations on 7 the Subpoena?
8 your behalf about whether you would appear? 8 A. I've talked to Brown Rudnick about
9 A. No. 9 this.
10 Q. Well, there were a series of 10 Q. Did they have conversations with
11 letters, first U.S. described you as their key 11 the United States about whether you would
12 witness; you're aware of that, right? 12 appear or not?
13 A. Yes. 13 A. I would imagine they did.
14 Q. And then there were a series of 14 Q. Weren't you informed?
15 letters where they cut back on what it would 15 A. I've been informed.
16 be you might testify about; you're aware of 16 Q. What did they tell you?
17 those, correct? 17 A. I don't remember.
18 A. Yes, I am. 18 Q. You have no idea?
19 Q. And how did those letters come 19 A. No idea.
20 about? 20 Q. Not a clue?
21 A. They followed one another. 21 A. No, a clue.
22 Q. Who had the conversations that led 22 Q. You have a clue?
23 to those letters? 23 A. I have a clue.
24 A. Lots of people. 24 Q. All right. So what's your clue
25 Q. Who were the lots of people? 25 about what you were told?
76 (Pages 298 to 301)
Page 302 Page 303
2 MR. KIM: Are you -- I'm sorry. 2 I can answer that question.
3 Are you now referring to a 3 Q. Well, before the letter went from
4 conversation between the D.A.'s office 4 your lawyer to the U.S. Attorney's Office, did
5 and Mr. Browder or Mr. Browder and his 5 you conclude yourself that you were capable of
6 lawyers? 6 testifying about what was in the letter?
7 MR. CYMROT: Mr. Browder and his 7 A. I'd have to look at the letter.
8 lawyers. 8 Q. You have no idea?
9 MR. KIM: Okay. I object on the 9 A. I don't know which letter you're
10 basis of attorney-client privilege. 10 talking about.
11 MR. CYMROT: Are you instructing 11 MR. CYMROT: Do we have his visit
12 him -- 12 to The White House?
13 MR. KIM: I'm instructing him not 13 (Browder Exhibit 17, Document
14 to answer that particular question, 14 Entitled "White House Visitor Records
15 but you can continue. 15 Requests" was marked for
16 BY MR. CYMROT: 16 identification, as of this date.)
17 Q. Did you inform the U.S. Attorney's 17 BY MR. CYMROT:
18 Office what you were capable of testifying 18 Q. I'm marking for identification as
19 about? Let me ask a different question. 19 Exhibit 17 the document entitled "White House
20 You've read those letters, right? 20 Visitor Records Requests."
21 A. Yes. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you capable of testifying 22 Q. It says "Name: Last, Browder"?
23 about the subjects that are set forth in those 23 A. Yes.
24 letters? 24 Q. "Name: First, William"?
25 A. We have to refer to each letter so 25 A. Yes.
Page 304 Page 305
2 Q. "Middle initial F; appointment date 2 Q. Who else was present?
3 February 12, 2014"; you see that? 3 A. Juleanna Glover.
4 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who's Juleanna Glover?
5 Q. So does this refresh your 5 A. She was my lobbyist.
6 recollection that you had a meeting at The 6 Q. She was your lobbyist?
7 White House with a Mr. Carpenter on 7 A. Correct.
8 February 12, 2014? 8 Q. When did you discharge her from
9 A. Could you break down the question? 9 being your lobbyist?
10 There's several questions there. 10 A. She left her firm to join a new
11 Q. Did you have a meeting at The White 11 firm, and that's when the relationship -- the
12 House on February 14, 2014? 12 business relationship ended.
13 A. No, I had a meeting at the old 13 Q. When was that?
14 executive office building. 14 A. I can't remember, maybe a year ago.
15 Q. I see. Within The White House 15 Q. Well, she was present when you were
16 complex? 16 served with a Subpoena just a couple months
17 A. Yes. 17 ago, right?
18 Q. So when I asked you when you'd been 18 A. Correct.
19 to The White House, you weren't talking about 19 Q. But that wasn't part of a business
20 The White House complex? 20 relationship?
21 A. Correct. 21 A. No.
22 Q. So I have to be very careful in 22 Q. Okay. So other than Mr. Carpenter
23 asking my questions; is that right? 23 and Ms. Glover, who else was present?
24 Did you meet with Mr. Carpenter? 24 A. Nobody.
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. And why did you ask for this
77 (Pages 302 to 305)
Page 306 Page 307
2 appointment? 2 Magnitsky list.
3 A. Part of our advocacy for 3 Q. And what did you say and did he say
4 implementing Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law 4 during that conversation?
5 Accountability Act sanctions. 5 A. I said "We should put more people
6 Q. What were you asking for? 6 on the Magnitsky list."
7 A. More people to be added to the 7 Q. And what did he say?
8 list. 8 A. "We're working on it."
9 Q. And who did you want added to the 9 Q. And who are the people you wanted
10 list? 10 to add to the list?
11 A. I can't remember the names. 11 A. I can't remember.
12 Q. Mr. Katsyv was not on your list? 12 Q. Did he say how he's working on it?
13 A. No. 13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever talk to the U.S. 14 Q. One point you learned that
15 Attorney's Office whether Mr. Katsyv should be 15 John Kerry, secretary of state, stopped
16 added to the list? 16 additions to the list, right?
17 A. No. 17 A. What are you -- what point are you
18 Q. Anybody in your team have that 18 referring to?
19 conversation? 19 Q. In 2014.
20 A. No. 20 A. I think it was The White House, but
21 Q. So how long did you meet with 21 I can't remember who was stopping it, somebody
22 Mr. Carpenter? 22 was stopping it.
23 A. Forty-five minutes. 23 Q. Didn't you call Mr. Kerry the
24 Q. And what was the conversation? 24 lapdog of Mr. Putin?
25 A. About putting people on the 25 A. I might have. Are you referring to
Page 308 Page 309
2 a specific quote or document? 2 Q. Do you think Mr. Kerry is the
3 Q. I'm referring to a quote. Did you 3 lapdog of Putin?
4 call Mr. Kerry a lapdog of Putin? 4 A. Do I think -- yes.
5 A. Can I see that document and confirm 5 Q. And why?
6 it? 6 A. Because in my opinion he's
7 Q. No, I'm asking you whether you said 7 following a policy of appeasement towards
8 it. 8 Russia.
9 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Including not adding people to the
10 Q. If I showed you the document, you 10 Magnitsky list?
11 would remember? 11 A. Among other things.
12 A. It would refresh my memory. 12 Q. What other things are you referring
13 Q. I see. So you have no recollection 13 to?
14 of calling Secretary of State Kerry the lapdog 14 A. Sanctions policy, more generally,
15 of Putin? 15 arms to Ukraine, Syria, Iran, et cetera.
16 A. Maybe your colleague can show me 16 Q. An interesting subject, but not
17 the document and it will refresh my memory. 17 part of the lawsuit, so we'll pass.
18 Q. But unless I show you a document, 18 So when you heard there was a trial
19 you're not going to admit to the statement? 19 date in this case, were you concerned by that?
20 A. I've made a lot of statements about 20 A. No.
21 a lot of people. I'd like to see the 21 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Carpenter about
22 statement. 22 it?
23 Q. Do you feel Mr. Kerry is the lapdog 23 A. No.
24 of Putin? 24 Q. Never even brought it up?
25 A. Let me see the statement. 25 A. No.
78 (Pages 306 to 309)
Page 310 Page 311
2 Q. Did you talk to anybody within The 2 A. The Organized Crime and Corruption
3 White House complex about it? 3 Reporting Project.
4 A. No. 4 Q. They had records?
5 Q. Did you talk to anybody in the 5 A. Yes.
6 justice department about it? 6 Q. Do they have records of Prevezon
7 A. No. 7 Holdings account and UBS?
8 Q. Okay. So do you have any idea 8 A. No.
9 where the United States got records of 9 Q. Now I want to focus -- and I
10 Prevezon Holdings' UBS Bank account? 10 understand, I'm looking now at the chart,
11 A. No. 11 Exhibit 1, Tab 7. We talked about the part up
12 Q. Has -- has your team traced -- 12 through Bunicon and Elenast. We're now at,
13 allegedly traced $230 million or any part of 13 according to this chart, $410,000 that went
14 that to Prevezon Holdings? 14 from Bunicon to Prevezon Holdings and four
15 A. Isn't this the whole basis for our 15 $447,000 that went from Elenast to Prevezon
16 Complaint? 16 Holdings. Do you see that?
17 Q. Right. So how did you do that? 17 A. Yes.
18 A. My team conducted the 18 Q. So how did your team trace those
19 investigation. 19 funds?
20 Q. And how did they do that? 20 A. I don't know.
21 A. Gathering information from 21 Q. Are there any documents within this
22 different sources. 22 exhibit as far as you know that trace those
23 Q. What sources? What sources? 23 funds?
24 A. 1782 Subpoena, OCCRP. 24 A. I don't know. I think these
25 Q. What's that, OCCRP? 25 numbers, these tab numbers refer to different
Page 312 Page 313
2 documents, but I couldn't -- 2 $447,000 payment from Elenast to Prevezon?
3 Q. What's that? 3 A. I don't know.
4 A. I think these numbers, these 1, 2, 4 Q. And you have no idea what these
5 3, 4, 5 refer to different documents here, but 5 little boxes are that are on the opposite
6 I don't know how that works. 6 page?
7 Q. Give me a second. All right. 7 A. I have no idea.
8 So if we look at '151, that's the 8 Q. And you have no idea where they
9 Bates number on the bottom. 9 came from?
10 A. I'm sorry, what are you referring 10 A. No idea.
11 to? 11 Q. And who on your team should I ask
12 Q. It's in Tab 8, lower right-hand 12 about the transfers from UBS and Switzerland
13 corner, 3128-151. 13 into the UBS account in Switzerland?
14 A. Okay. 14 MR. KIM: Objection to the form.
15 Q. So it talks about a transfer of 447 15 Q. Let me start again.
16 from -- Elenast to Prevezon; do you see that? 16 Who on your team should I ask about
17 A. Yes. 17 the transfers from Bunicon and Elenast to
18 Q. And on the opposite page, that's 18 Prevezon?
19 the Bunicon payment, I suppose we have to turn 19 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
20 the page. 20 A. Could you rephrase the question?
21 I don't know, do you see the 21 Q. Yes. There's a statement here that
22 447,000 because I don't? 22 Elenast transferred $447,000 to Prevezon. Who
23 A. So what is your question? 23 on your team would know how that transfer
24 Q. Where is the basis for the 24 occurred?
25 statement on page '151 that there was a 25 A. I imagine either lawyers or Vadim.
79 (Pages 310 to 313)
Page 314 Page 315
2 Q. The lawyers, the same lawyers 2 A. It's a large Israeli real estate
3 you've been talking about? 3 investment company listed on the Tel Aviv
4 A. Yes. 4 Stock Exchange.
5 Q. And you don't know where they got 5 Q. Has it ever been subject of a
6 the records? 6 criminal investigation, to your knowledge?
8 Q. Do they have any other source of 8 Q. Not to your knowledge?
9 the records other than the Swiss proceeding? 9 A. I just don't know.
10 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Do you know Mr. Loviev?
11 Q. Did somebody steal the records? 11 A. I know of him.
12 A. No. 12 Q. Never met him?
13 Q. You're sure about that? 13 A. I have.
14 A. Yes. 14 Q. You met him how many times?
15 Q. Do you have a whistleblower for 15 A. Twice.
16 this, for these records? 16 Q. When was that?
17 A. I don't know where these records 17 A. In 1996 and sometime in the early
18 came from. 18 2000s.
19 Q. What do you know about the company 19 Q. What were the circumstances of
20 called AFI Europe? 20 meeting Mr. Loviev?
21 A. I read something in the Complaint 21 A. Social. He was at a party.
22 about them joint venturing with your clients 22 Q. Both occasions?
23 on German real estate. 23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know anything else about 24 Q. Never did any business with him?
25 them? 25 A. No.
Page 316 Page 317
2 Q. Do you know people who did business 2 Q. Okay. So Mr. Browder, you're the
3 with him? 3 head of the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign;
4 A. No. 4 is that right?
5 Q. Do you know Mr. Guidimac? 5 A. Yes.
6 A. No. 6 Q. And what's that devoted to?
7 Q. Know anything about a structure for 7 A. Getting justice for
8 holding real estate in Europe called "the 8 Sergei Magnitsky.
9 Dutch sandwich"? 9 Q. And where does it get its funding?
10 A. No. 10 A. It's a loose cooperation of
11 Q. You don't own any real estate in 11 individuals, it's mostly self-funded.
12 Europe? 12 Q. "Self-funded"; you pay for most of
13 A. I'm sorry? 13 it?
14 Q. Do you own any real estate in 14 A. Most people contribute their time
15 Europe? 15 and effort for free.
16 A. No. 16 Q. And the expenses?
17 MR. CYMROT: Why don't we take a 17 A. They're -- the expenses aren't
18 short break. 18 significant, but I pay some of them.
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 19 Q. Do you know something called The
20 4:52 p.m. We're off the record. 20 Journalism Development Network?
21 (Whereupon, at this time, a short 21 A. No.
22 break was taken.) 22 Q. Operates OCCRP; you're aware of
23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 23 that?
24 5:12 p.m. We're back on the record. 24 A. No.
25 BY MR. CYMROT: 25 Q. Do you make contributions to the
80 (Pages 314 to 317)
Page 318 Page 319
2 Journalism Development Network? 2 Do you have any idea how its
3 A. No. 3 contributions jump so significantly in 2012?
4 Q. Never? 4 A. No.
5 A. Never. 5 Q. And that's not due to any
6 Q. You've never made contributions 6 contributions you made?
7 directly or indirectly to OCCRP? 7 A. I made no contributions.
8 A. No. 8 Q. And Hermitage?
9 Q. How did you come to know OCCRP? 9 A. No contributions.
10 A. We met them -- I met them, my 10 Q. And nobody on your team that you
11 colleagues met them in the course of our work. 11 know of?
12 MR. CYMROT: So I'm going to mark 12 A. No.
13 as Exhibit 18 a return of organization 13 Q. So you have no explanation for that
14 exempt from income tax Journalism 14 jump in contributions?
15 Development Network, Inc. 15 A. No.
16 (Browder Exhibit 18, document 16 Q. So in 2012, the OCCRP approached
17 Bates stamped BrowderDepo0000548 17 Denis Katsyv; you're aware of that?
18 through '581 was marked for 18 A. No.
19 identification, as of this date.) 19 Q. You weren't aware of that?
20 BY MR. CYMROT: 20 A. No.
21 Q. And this is for the year 2012, and 21 Q. So according to your letter, which
22 it shows in 2011 it received contributions of 22 is Exhibit 1 to the New York D.A., there were
23 $19,000. And in 2013, I'm looking at line 8 23 transactions by Prevezon, and you list 13 of
24 on the first page, received contributions of 24 them. I think I misspoke just a second.
25 $1,015,542. 25 It was 13 transactions and the last
Page 320 Page 321
2 two were the ones to Prevezon. 2 information about Prevezon?
3 A. Could you just alert me to the 3 A. No.
4 right page here? 4 Q. Unit 2009 was acquired by Prevezon
5 Q. Yes, page 5. 5 on November 30, 2009 for 1,231,148. Do you
6 A. Page 4 or page 5. 6 see that?
7 Q. Page 5. Well, it starts on page 4, 7 A. Yes.
8 there are a list of transactions, but the last 8 Q. Where did you get that information?
9 two are Transaction 15 and 16; do you see 9 A. That information came from
10 that? 10 Bill Alpert at Barron's magazine.
11 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know where he got it?
12 Q. And where did you get that 12 A. No.
13 information? 13 Q. Unit 1810 was acquired on
14 A. I don't know. 14 November 30th for 829; did that come from
15 Q. So then it goes "Acquisition of 15 Bill Alpert also?
16 Defendants' assets" further down the page. 16 A. I believe so.
17 "Prevezon acquired the Defendant assets on 17 Q. How did Bill Alpert become
18 November 30, 2009." 18 interested in Denis Katsyv?
19 What do you mean by "Defendant 19 A. He's a part of the OCCRP network.
20 assets"? 20 Q. Well, but how did Denis Katsyv come
21 A. Where is the -- what are we 21 to the attention of the OCCRP?
22 referencing? 22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Paragraph numbered 16. 23 Q. How did they come to your
24 A. I don't know. 24 attention?
25 Q. So you don't know how you came into 25 A. I don't know.
81 (Pages 318 to 321)
Page 322 Page 323
2 Q. Do you know whether this 2 excess of $857,000 through corrupt schemes";
3 information is accurate in 17 and 18? 3 that's what it says, right, paragraph 19?
4 A. I don't know. 4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Look, this is a letter that you 5 Q. So what were the corrupt schemes
6 delivered to New York D.A. personally and you 6 referred to right here, corrupt schemes?
7 did no due diligence to see whether it was 7 A. I don't know.
8 accurate? 8 Q. You have no idea?
9 A. I trusted my team. 9 A. No.
10 Q. That's totally -- you trusted your 10 Q. "Prevezon and Denis Katsyv have
11 team, but you did nothing yourself to 11 also taken significant steps to conceal the
12 understand the information and to check 12 source and ownership of their funds and
13 whether it was accurate; is that true? 13 assets."
14 A. What's the question? 14 What significant steps did they
15 Q. You did nothing yourself in the way 15 take?
16 of due diligence to determine whether this 16 A. I don't know.
17 information that you're presenting to the 17 Q. So you go out there and you tell
18 New York D.A. is accurate? 18 the world that Denis Katsyv is a crook and you
19 A. My team did the due diligence and I 19 don't have any idea how he's a crook; is that
20 trusted their work. 20 what you're telling us?
21 Q. Did you ever find -- so it sets 21 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
22 conclusion, "As set forth, Prevezon, its major 22 A. Could you rephrase the question,
23 shareholder, Denis Katsyv, the son of Piotr 23 please?
24 Katsyv, Russian senior official, has acquired 24 Q. You go out and you tell the world
25 the vast corporate and personal wealth in 25 that Denis Katsyv is a crook and you have no
Page 324 Page 325
2 idea what acts he committed that were crooked; 2 although you've been at this for years, other
3 is that your testimony? 3 than Mr. Katsyv based on the rigor and quality
4 A. No. 4 of your information; is that right?
5 Q. And what did he do that was crooked 5 A. No.
6 in your view, corrupt? 6 Q. Who's been prosecuted?
7 A. My team did an analysis which led 7 A. You had five different questions in
8 to apartments being purchased using funds from 8 your question, so can you --
9 the $230 million tax rebate fraud that 9 Q. No. Nobody has been prosecuted
10 Sergei Magnitsky uncovered. The rigor and 10 based upon the rigger and quality of the work
11 quality of the work that my team did gave me 11 of your team, five years of doing work?
12 confidence to supply our suspicions to the 12 A. Is your question whether anyone has
13 New York District Attorney's office to 13 been prosecuted?
14 investigate and they chose to investigate. 14 Q. Yes.
15 Q. "Rigor and quality." 15 A. If your question is has anyone been
16 What rigor did they use? 16 prosecuted --
17 A. The same rigor they've used all 17 Q. As a result of your work?
18 throughout my experience with them. 18 A. As a result of our work; not yet.
19 Q. So you have no idea what due 19 Q. And it's been how many years you've
20 diligence they do to make sure their 20 been at this?
21 information is accurate? 21 A. Since Sergei Magnitsky was killed.
22 A. They've been doing this work for a 22 Q. When was that?
23 long time, and the work that they do is high 23 A. November 16, 2009.
24 quality and I have confidence in it. 24 Q. So that's six years now?
25 Q. And nobody has been prosecuted, 25 A. Five and a half.
82 (Pages 322 to 325)
Page 326 Page 327
2 Q. And you presented to how many 2 objection other than what the
3 different prosecutors? 3 Government stated, which I understand
4 MR. MONTELEONI: To the extent 4 they're withdrawing their objection to
5 that that question calls for 5 a question about the number if the
6 communications with government 6 witness knows.
7 agencies that are engaged in ongoing 7 BY MR. CYMROT:
8 criminal investigations that aren't 8 Q. How many prosecutors have you
9 public, I'm going to again request 9 submitted information to?
10 that the witness not answer it. 10 A. I don't know the exact number, more
11 But obviously to the extent that 11 than ten.
12 its existence of investigations that 12 Q. And when your rigorous and
13 are public, we have no objection. 13 high-quality information has been challenged
14 MR. CYMROT: Are you instructing 14 in court, you've lost; isn't that true?
15 him not to answer? To be clear, I 15 A. No.
16 asked for the number. I didn't ask 16 Q. Well, Mr. Stepanov won in court,
17 for names. So I don't know how the 17 you already testified to that; and weren't you
18 number could be privileged. 18 sued by Mr. Karpov?
19 MR. MONTELEONI: Yes, that's fine. 19 A. Yes.
20 If it's just the number, you can 20 Q. In London?
21 answer. 21 A. Yes.
22 MR. KIM: Yes, Mr. Cymrot, I 22 Q. The judge there was highly critical
23 understood you to be asking for the 23 of your analysis, wasn't he?
24 number. And if the witness knows the 24 A. No.
25 number, I do not have an independent 25 Q. Really?
Page 328 Page 329
2 A. Yes. 2 Q. What did Mr. Karpov accuse you of
3 Q. Okay. I wouldn't want a judge 3 in this lawsuit?
4 saying this about me, so I'll show it to you. 4 A. Libel.
5 (Browder Exhibit 19, document 5 Q. For what statements?
6 Bates stamped BrowderDepo0001643 6 A. Statements made in the videos that
7 through '670 was marked for 7 were published on russianuntouchables.com.
8 identification, as of this date.) 8 Q. That says he had arrested, tortured
9 MR. CYMROT: I'm marking as 9 and murdered Mr. Magnitsky?
10 Exhibit 19 an opinion, approved 10 A. The statements didn't say that on
11 judgment in the High Court of Justice 11 the website.
12 Queens Bench Division, Royal Court of 12 Q. Really? Well, let's see about
13 Justice, Strand, London before 13 that.
14 Mr. Justice Simon between Pavel Karpov 14 Episode 2 on page '1645, that's the
15 and -- as Claimant and 15 Bates number.
16 William Felix Browder as Defendants, 16 2008, after Sergei Magnitsky
17 Hermitage Capital Management Ltd., 17 testified against the same criminal group for
18 Hermitage Capital Management U.K. 18 an even larger crime, the same officers
19 Ltd., Jamison Reed Firestone. 19 arrested, tortured and eventually killed
20 BY MR. CYMROT: 20 Sergei to hide their crime. Unless they are
21 Q. Do you know what this document is? 21 stopped, the same criminal group will continue
22 A. Yes. 22 to murder and steal. And it's time for the
23 Q. What is it? 23 Russian government to prosecute the officers
24 A. This is the judgment on the libel 24 responsible for the arrest and death of
25 suit. 25 Sergei Magnitsky, Major Pavel Karpov uses his
83 (Pages 326 to 329)
Page 330 Page 331
2 position to steal, destroy lives. He's become 2 that.
3 a very rich man and believes his uniform makes 3 Q. I see. But the Court felt that
4 him untouchable. It's time to prove him 4 this was an accurate -- this is written by a
5 wrong. Did you make that statement in your 5 judge, right, this opinion, correct?
6 website? 6 A. Yes.
7 A. That statement was made on the 7 Q. The judge felt that was an accurate
8 Russian Untouchables video, Episode 2. 8 representation of what was said, correct?
9 Q. That was -- you were responsible 9 A. No.
10 for that? 10 Q. He didn't?
11 A. Yes. 11 A. The judge is paraphrasing for
12 Q. You approved it? 12 whatever purposes.
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. I see. So you think the judge got
14 Q. Episode 3, top of page '1646, 14 it wrong?
15 "Instead of stopping Sergei Magnitsky and 15 A. No, I just see that there's three
16 recognizing him as a hero, the Government 16 dots there.
17 allowed Interior Ministry Officers Kuznetsov, 17 Q. So did you say in words or in
18 Karpov...to arrest, torture and kill him." 18 substance that Karpov had arrested, tortured
19 You said that? 19 and killed Magnitsky?
20 A. No. There's three dots in between 20 A. No.
21 those -- those -- those words. 21 Q. Well, we just read it in Episode 2,
22 Q. The Court felt that this was an 22 you said it?
23 accurate statement of what was said? 23 A. No, I didn't. Should we read it
24 A. No. There's three dots there, so I 24 again?
25 didn't -- the video said something more than 25 Q. Yes. We'll read it again.
Page 332 Page 333
2 A. "In 2008 after Sergei Magnitsky 2 got it wrong?
3 testified against the same criminal group for 3 A. Yes. I'm saying that there's three
4 an even larger crime, the same officers 4 dots there. No, the Court didn't get it
5 arrested, tortured -- 5 wrong. I'm saying that you're reading out of
6 MR. KIM: Slow down, it's being 6 context, there's three dots there and there's
7 typed up. 7 a longer sentence.
8 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 8 Q. But this is what the Court wrote,
9 A. "And eventually killed Sergei to 9 this is what the judge wrote, we're looking at
10 hide their crime. Unless they are stopped, 10 a judge's opinion, right? I didn't get it
11 the same criminal group will continue to 11 wrong. You're saying the judge got it wrong
12 murder and steal. It's time for the Russian 12 when he put three dots there because it
13 government to prosecute the officers 13 changed the meaning according to you?
14 responsible for the arrest and death of 14 A. I'm not sure the judge intended --
15 Sergei Magnitsky. Major Pavel Karpov uses his 15 no, I disagree.
16 position to steal and destroy lives. He's 16 Q. You disagree. What do you disagree
17 become a very rich man and believes his 17 with?
18 uniform makes him untouchable. It's time to 18 A. I disagree that there's three dots
19 prove him wrong." 19 there. So if you want to use this, you should
20 Q. So you're saying the Court got it 20 retrieve the full sentence.
21 wrong when on the next page, '1646, "Instead 21 Q. I'm talking about what Judge Simon
22 of supporting Sergei Magnitsky and recognizing 22 said about what you said about Mr. Karpov.
23 him as a hero, the Government allowed Interior 23 And Judge Simon said Kuznetsov Karpov -- three
24 Ministry Officers Kuznetsov, Karpov...to 24 dots -- to arrest, torture and kill him. "
25 arrest, torture and kill him"; so the Court 25 That's what I'm reading.
84 (Pages 330 to 333)
Page 334 Page 335
2 A. So I didn't say that. I said more 2 in Mr. Magnitsky's position could well die in
3 words than are listed there, which is why 3 prison. Notwithstanding this, the claimant
4 there's three dots. 4 participated in the arrest and detention in
5 Q. Al righty. Okay, paragraph 128 -- 5 the manner alleged above," correct?
6 starting on 127, actually. 6 A. Yes.
7 So 127 has your case, Defendants' 7 Q. And then the judge says "This is an
8 case on the ill-treatment and/or torture of 8 unsatisfactory plea of justification for at
9 Sergei Magnitsky, correct? 9 least two reasons. First, it focuses on
10 A. Let me read it properly. Yes, 10 Claimant's motive and motive alone is not
11 correct. 11 sufficient to support a plea of torture and
12 Q. So it says that your case is for 12 murder. Second, the only overt act relied on
13 "the avoidance of doubt, it is not alleged 13 is the Claimant's involvement in the arrest
14 that the Claimant" -- which would be 14 and imprisonment of Sergei Magnitsky. The
15 Mr. Karpov -- "personally took part in the 15 link which is made between the arrest and
16 ill-treatment and/or torture and killing of 16 imprisonment on the one hand and
17 Mr. Magnitsky. The case against Claimant is 17 Sergei Magnitsky's death on the other, is that
18 that he was, however, one of those culpable 18 the latter was reasonably foreseeable
19 and complicit in it because of his part in the 19 consequence of the former, not least because
20 fraud and coverup." 20 of high mortality rates in Russian prisons.
21 And then it says "It would have 21 The causal link which one would expect from
22 been reasonably foreseeable to any reasonable 22 such a serious charge is wholly lacking and
23 or blameless official in the Claimant's 23 nothing is said about torture or murder";
24 position (not least based on the high 24 that's what the judge said about your
25 mortality rates in Russian prisons), a person 25 statements concerning Mr. Karpov, correct?
Page 336 Page 337
2 A. Yes. 2 He doesn't agree that because he
3 Q. And yet you continue to go around 3 supposedly was the arresting officer that he
4 and associate people with the death of 4 was responsible for his death, correct?
5 Sergei Magnitsky who were not directly 5 A. No.
6 involved in his death, don't you? 6 Q. The judge doesn't agree?
7 A. I believe that people I make 7 A. No, that's incorrect.
8 statements about being involved in his death 8 Q. Oh, the judge agrees with you?
9 were involved in his death. 9 A. No, the judge doesn't -- repeat
10 Q. And you think Mr. Karpov -- despite 10 your question and I'll tell you --
11 the disagreement the judge had with you, you 11 Q. You said the judge thinks "the
12 think Mr. Karpov is responsible? 12 causal link which one would expect from such a
13 A. I believe that Mr. Karpov was a 13 serious charge" -- the charge being that he
14 member of a criminal enterprise that was 14 was involved in the arrest and therefore he
15 responsible. 15 was involved in the death -- "is wholly
16 Q. I'm asking you whether you disagree 16 lacking and nothing is said about torture or
17 with the judge, that because he arrested him 17 murder." That's what the judge said. Do you
18 that necessarily Magnitsky -- Mr. Magnitsky 18 disagree with the judge?
19 was going to die; that's what you've said? 19 A. No.
20 A. Why don't we just read a little 20 Q. Okay. So in this Complaint, in
21 further in the same document. If you go to -- 21 this case, there's a reference to the death of
22 Q. Why don't we answer my question. 22 Mr. Magnitsky and you've associated Mr. Katsyv
23 "The causal link which one would 23 with the death of Mr. Magnitsky, haven't you?
24 expect from the serious charges wholly lacking 24 A. No.
25 and nothing is said about torture or murder." 25 MR. CYMROT: I'm going to mark as
85 (Pages 334 to 337)
Page 338 Page 339
2 Exhibit 20 a press release, which I 2 U.S. to seize assets connected to the
3 believe is from Hermitage on 3 Magnitsky case, said a Hermitage capital
4 September 11, 2013, regarding the 4 representative. It's a significant
5 Complaint. 5 escalation, the campaign, to bring justice for
6 (Browder Exhibit 20, Press Release 6 Sergei Magnitsky and his family. Sergei's
7 was marked for identification, as of 7 family, colleagues and friends" -- "colleagues
8 this date.) 8 and family will continue to pursue all of the
9 BY MR. CYMROT: 9 recipients of the blood money to make sure
10 Q. So can you identify Exhibit 20? 10 they are parted with the elicit proceeds
11 A. Yes. 11 whoever and wherever they are."
12 Q. What is it? 12 And the Complaint you're referring
13 A. Press release. 13 to is against Prevezon Holdings, and you refer
14 Q. By whom? 14 to Mr. Katsyv on the second page.
15 A. Website called Law and Order in 15 So you're saying Mr. Katsyv
16 Russia. 16 received blood money from the death of
17 Q. And who issued the press release? 17 Sergei Magnitsky; is that what you're saying?
18 A. The Justice Campaign for 18 A. According to the press release,
19 Sergei Magnitsky. 19 it's "Sergei's friends, colleagues and family
20 Q. Which is your organization? 20 will continue to pursue all of the recipients
21 A. Which is my organization. 21 of the blood money to make sure they're parted
22 Q. So you approved this press release? 22 with the elicit proceeds whenever and wherever
23 A. I did. 23 they are." That's exactly what was said.
24 Q. It states, middle of the first 24 Q. And you think it's appropriate to
25 paragraph, "This is the first action in the 25 refer to blood money received by Mr. Katsyv
Page 340 Page 341
2 through 104 transactions over months and 2 what he allegedly received as blood money,
3 months where he's denied to you that he 3 implying he was involved in the death of
4 received it and gave you a perfectly 4 Magnitsky?
5 reasonable explanation for where it came from? 5 A. There's three questions there. Do
6 MR. KIM: Objection to form. 6 you want to break them down?
7 A. There's a lot of questions there. 7 Q. Are you implying with blood money
8 Q. I'll -- I'll -- Yeah, well, we'll 8 that the person that received it, Mr. Katsyv
9 get to all five of them. 9 was involved in the death of Mr. Magnitsky?
10 So it's re- -- you think it's 10 A. No.
11 appropriate to refer to Mr. Katsyv as having 11 Q. And so what is blood money referred
12 received blood money? 12 to?
13 A. I believe that the -- anybody who 13 A. The money from the $230 million tax
14 received proceeds of the $230 million tax 14 rebate fraud.
15 rebate fraud which led to the murder of 15 Q. The allegation in the Complaint is
16 Sergei Magnitsky is blood money. If he 16 Mr. Katsyv's companies, Prevezon, are
17 received that money, he was a recipient of 17 conspirators and they are responsible for the
18 blood money. 18 whole scheme of the $230 million; were you
19 Q. You testified earlier today that 19 aware of that?
20 you had no knowledge of facts that would show 20 A. No.
21 that Mr. Katsyv had knowledge or intent to 21 Q. You read it, you read the
22 participate in the scheme described in the 22 Complaint, didn't you?
23 Complaint; do you remember that testimony? 23 A. Didn't say that they were
24 A. I do. 24 responsible.
25 Q. And yet you're willing to describe 25 Q. Of course it did.
86 (Pages 338 to 341)
Page 342 Page 343
2 A. It didn't say that. 2 tax rebate fraud. That fraud, the discovery
3 Q. It asked to recover the 3 of that fraud by Sergei Magnitsky led to his
4 $230 million. 4 false arrest, torture and murder in prison and
5 A. I'm sorry? 5 therefore -- so therefore --
6 Q. I'm not going to go back to the 6 Q. Go ahead, finish?
7 Complaint. It's getting late in the day. 7 A. And therefore, the person that
8 You're telling me you didn't have 8 received that, in my opinion, would be the
9 any idea when you read that Complaint that 9 recipient of blood money.
10 Mr. Katsyv's companies are being accused of 10 Q. Based upon your suspicions, you
11 being responsible for the whole $230 million 11 just said, "suspicions" was the word?
12 scheme? 12 A. That's correct.
13 A. Let's go back to the document. 13 Q. So based upon suspicions, you
14 Q. Just tell me. You don't know it? 14 broadcast to the world that Mr. Katsyv is
15 A. I'd like to see the -- I'd like to 15 involved in the death of Mr. Magnitsky?
16 see what you're referring to. 16 A. No.
17 Q. I'd like to not spend time on that. 17 Q. That's adequate for your point of
18 So you think this is an appropriate 18 view?
19 press release and an appropriate Complaint 19 A. No.
20 referring to the Magnitsky Act, it's 20 Q. You just said that?
21 appropriate press release associating 21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Mr. Katsyv with blood money? 22 Q. You said based upon our suspicions
23 A. Mr. Katsyv, according to our 23 he received money?
24 analysis and our suspicions, received a 24 A. That's correct.
25 portion of the proceeds of the $230 million 25 Q. And therefore, it's blood money,
Page 344 Page 345
2 and therefore he's responsible for having 2 your information and you knew that, didn't
3 blood money? 3 you?
4 A. There's three questions there. You 4 MR. KIM: Objection to form.
5 want to break them down? 5 A. No.
6 Q. No. You think it's perfectly 6 Q. Let me show you another press
7 appropriate based upon suspicions to accuse 7 release -- article.
8 somebody of having blood money? 8 MR. CYMROT: I'm marking as
9 A. Could you rephrase the question, 9 Exhibit 21 a Radio Free Europe/Radio
10 please? 10 Liberty article of September 18, 2013.
11 Q. No. I said you believe based upon 11 (Browder Exhibit 21, Radio Free
12 suspicions that it is a proper basis to accuse 12 Europe/Radio Liberty Article of
13 somebody of having blood money? 13 September 18, 2013 was marked for
14 A. We had suspicions, I had 14 identification, as of this date.)
15 suspicions, and I took those suspicions to the 15 BY MR. CYMROT:
16 New York D.A.'s office to investigate. 16 Q. "Could U.S. Assets Seizure Lead to
17 They investigated and believed that 17 Expansion of Magnitsky Blacklist?"
18 my suspicions were credible. And on the back 18 First sentence reads "As shady
19 of that, they handed the Complaint to the U.S. 19 Russian businessmen snapped up luxury
20 Attorney's Office, who also believed that our 20 apartments in New York City, lawyer
21 suspicions were credible based on their own 21 Sergei Magnitsky was confined to the few
22 investigation and then seized the properties. 22 square meters of a Moscow jail cell. He would
23 Q. Mr. Hyman testified that the 23 die there under suspicious circumstances." It
24 information he got was from you to Mr. Kleiner 24 refers to the lawsuit and refers to Mr. Katsyv
25 and some websites you directed him to. It was 25 as the supposedly shady Russian businessman.
87 (Pages 342 to 345)
Page 346 Page 347
2 Do you think there is a sufficient 2 A. Looks like it's based on the
3 causal link between Mr. Katsyv's activities in 3 Complaint.
4 the Complaint and the death of 4 Q. You think it's -- that's an
5 Sergei Magnitsky? 5 appropriate way to interpret the Complaint?
6 A. I don't know. 6 A. I've got -- I make no judgment
7 Q. Do you think it's appropriate for a 7 on -- on this guy.
8 U.S. government company Radio Free Europe/ 8 Q. Do you have an opinion about
9 Radio Liberty to broadcast that around the 9 whether that's an appropriate way to describe
10 world? 10 the Complaint?
11 A. I have no judgment on 11 A. Without more information about
12 their journalistic standards one way or 12 his -- how he was basing his article, it would
13 another. 13 be -- I have no opinion.
14 Q. You think that's an appropriate 14 Q. Do you think that is an appropriate
15 association of Mr. Katsyv, with the death of 15 description of the Complaint? That's what you
16 Mr. Magnitsky? 16 said. You said it's a description of the
17 A. It's not my place to judge somebody 17 Complaint. Do you think that's an appropriate
18 else's article. 18 description of the Complaint?
19 Q. Why not? You have an opinion, 19 A. I don't know.
20 don't you? Don't you have an opinion? 20 Q. So is it fair to say that you
21 A. Yeah. 21 didn't learn anything from Justice Simon's
22 Q. What's your opinion? 22 criticism that you had an inadequate causal
23 A. About what? 23 link between somebody who arrested, allegedly,
24 Q. About that statement, beginning of 24 Mr. Magnitsky and his death?
25 that article. 25 A. In paragraph 141 --
Page 348 Page 349
2 Q. I'm asking you about -- 2 A. Would you like me to start --
3 A. And I'm -- and I'm -- 3 Q. I would look you to start at the
4 Q. -- paragraph 128. 4 beginning, slow down, and speak out loud.
5 A. And I'm answering you with 5 A. "Thirdly, the claimant has achieved
6 paragraph 141. 6 a measure of vindication as a result of the
7 In paragraph 141, Justice Simon 7 views I've expressed on his application. The
8 says, "I have" -- "I have used the expression 8 Defendants are not in a position to justify
9 'presently' -- 9 the allegations that he caused or was party to
10 Q. Why don't you start at the 10 the torture and death of Sergei Magnitsky or
11 beginning of the paragraph if you want to talk 11 would continue to commit or be party to
12 about 141. 12 covering up crimes. To use the expression in
13 A. Sure. 13 Olswang's letter of the first of August 2012,
14 "Thirdly, the claimant has achieved 14 the record, at least insofar as it is
15 a measure of vindication as a result of" -- 15 presently set out in the pleadings, has been
16 "as a result of the views I've expressed in 16 set straight. I recognize this will not
17 this application. Defendants are not in a 17 prevent a repetition of the libel which, in
18 position to justify the allegations that he 18 order of the court, would do, at least in
19 caused or was party of the torture, death of 19 the -- in this jurisdiction; however, nothing
20 Sergei Magnitsky, or continued to kit -- 20 in -- in this judgment is intended to suggest
21 commit" -- 21 that, if the Defendants were to continue to
22 Q. Slow down and speak out loud -- 22 publish unjustified defamatory material about
23 A. Or to be -- 23 the claimant, the Court would be powerless to
24 Q. If you want to -- if you want to 24 act. I've used the expression 'presently' set
25 read this, make sure people can hear it. 25 out in the pleadings because I've not
88 (Pages 346 to 349)
Page 350 Page 351
2 overlooked the possibility of an application 2 Q. Against Mr. Katsyv.
3 to amend the particulars of the plea of 3 A. Right.
4 justification to rely on participation in a 4 Q. Who's not accused of being involved
5 broad conspiracy and/or joint enterprise." 5 in the arrest, the death, the torture, or
6 Q. And you feel that justifies 6 anything else of Mr. Magnitsky. But you and
7 associating Mr. Pavlov -- Mr. Karpov -- 7 the United States have associated him with
8 sorry -- with the death of Mr. Magnitsky which 8 that death, and you think that's appropriate?
9 you just read? 9 A. I -- I think that's the -- the
10 A. I -- I believe that -- that 10 United States Government has taken a complaint
11 Mr. Karpov was a member of a joint enterprise 11 that we filed, investigated it, and found a
12 or broad conspiracy that led to the murder and 12 link between the crimes that Sergei Magnitsky
13 death of Sergei Magnitsky. 13 uncovered and the purchase of property in
14 Q. And you have yet to come up with a 14 New York and have ceased that property.
15 single fact that would justify that. 15 Q. And you think it's appropriate,
16 A. No. Incorrect. 16 based upon this link of 104 transactions, to
17 Q. We're not going back over the 17 say that Mr. Katsyv was associated with the
18 pleadings. We're talking about this case now. 18 death of Mr. Magnitsky?
19 A. Which case -- 19 A. I think it's appropriate to say
20 Q. You're -- 20 that Mr. Katsyv received proceeds.
21 A. Which case are we talking about? 21 Q. No. Answer my question, not your
22 We're talking about the libel case or -- 22 question.
23 Q. No. We're talking about this 23 Do you think it's appropriate,
24 lawsuit. 24 based upon what your avest -- investigation
25 A. Okay. 25 allegedly found, to associate Mr. Katsyv with
Page 352 Page 353
2 the death of Mr. Magnitsky? 2 Q. Do you keep a calendar?
3 A. Yes. 3 A. Do I keep a calendar?
4 Q. Other people will have a judgment 4 Q. Yes. Do you keep a calendar?
5 on that, but I would suggest you've learned 5 A. Yes.
6 nothing from Justice Simon. 6 Q. Do you keep your e-mails?
7 A. Is that a question? 7 A. Yes.
8 Q. No. It's my own editorializing. 8 Q. Who keeps your files?
9 You tape conversations? 9 A. What do you mean?
10 A. I don't permanently, no. 10 Q. Who keeps your files? Who
11 Q. Never? 11 maintains your files?
12 A. I have in the past. 12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 Q. In the past. How far in the past? 13 Q. You have files in connection with
14 A. In specific instances where 14 the $230 million fraud. Who maintains them?
15 somebody is involved in something suspicious. 15 A. People doing the investigation.
16 Q. Have you taped any conversations in 16 Q. Who is that?
17 connection with your investigation of the 17 A. My lawyers and Vadim Kleiner.
18 $230 million theft from the Russian Treasury? 18 Q. You don't keep anything yourself?
19 A. I haven't personally. 19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know if anybody in your team 20 Q. Nothing?
21 has? 21 A. No.
22 A. Has specifically taped 22 Q. Not a shred?
23 conversations? 23 A. No.
24 Q. Yes. 24 Q. Except the e-mails?
25 A. I don't know. 25 A. Yes.
89 (Pages 350 to 353)
Page 354 Page 355
2 Q. It's alleged in the Complaint and 2 Mr. Petrov."
3 the Amended Complaint that, when Mr. Katsyv 3 Do you see that?
4 was approached by a reporter about the funds 4 A. Yes.
5 that was in the Prevezon Holdings account, 5 Q. So the 2008 Bunicon and Elenast
6 that he said he had received them from an 6 transfers are the ones that your investigation
7 investor. You're aware of that? 7 claimed were from the Russian fraud, right?
8 A. Could you show me the -- the line. 8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Let's go to the Amended Complaint. 9 Q. Well, you can look at Exhibit B.
10 A. Is that Exhibit 14? 10 A. Exhibit B?
11 Q. So it's paragraph 108 and 109. 11 Q. Yes, to this Complaint.
12 Says the money that came in 12 A. Yes.
13 February of 2008 -- and I'm paraphrasing 13 Q. Which by the way is similar to
14 here -- from Bunicon and Elenast derived from 14 Exhibit 1, the chart that you showed us.
15 the deal between Mr. Krit and his friend or 15 A. Which -- which document is that?
16 Mr. Petrov. 16 Q. Well, let's go to your chart.
17 You see that? 17 Okay? Which is Exhibit 1, the letter to the
18 A. I'm sorry. Say it -- could you 18 U.S. Attorney's Office.
19 repeat your question. 19 A. Exhibit 1.
20 Q. Let me read from page 41, 20 Q. This letter to the U.S., right on
21 paragraph 108, first full sentence. 21 the top.
22 "Representative One stated that the 22 A. This one. Which tab?
23 funds involved in the February 2008 Bunicon 23 Q. Seven.
24 and Elenast transfers derived from a deal 24 A. Okay.
25 between Mr. Krit and his friend, a 25 Q. So this is your information?
Page 356 Page 357
2 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you ever investigate whether it
3 Q. You have transfers of 410,000; 3 was true that the 2008 transfers came from a
4 447,000 in February 2008, from Bunicon and 4 Mr. Petrov?
5 Elenast, right? 5 A. I didn't personally.
6 A. Um-hum. Yes. 6 Q. Did anybody?
7 Q. And that's what Representative One 7 A. I don't know.
8 was talking about February 2008, Bunicon 8 Q. Don't you think it's reasonable if
9 Elenast transfers. 9 there's an explanation to investigate the
10 A. Um-hum. 10 explanation?
11 Q. Yes? 11 A. If -- if -- in general terms? Yes.
12 A. I'm sorry? I -- 12 Q. Okay. And so we have, according to
13 Q. All right. So Representative One, 13 your chart, $20 million of clean money going
14 on behalf of Mr. Katsyv, says that those 14 into Bunicon and Elenast, $800,000 coming out.
15 transfers came from a deal between Mr. Petrov 15 Don't you think it's possible that that was
16 and Mr. Krit, right? That's what the 16 clean money that came out?
17 Complaint says? 17 A. I don't know.
18 A. That's what it says, yes. 18 Q. Don't you think it's possible that
19 Q. Okay. And you had that information 19 Mr. Katsyv's explanation that it came from a
20 before the Complaint was filed, right? 20 Mr. Petrov is a reasonable explanation when
21 A. No. 21 there's $20 million of clean money going
22 Q. You had that information actually 22 through those accounts at the same time?
23 before you even made the Complaint to the U.S. 23 A. I don't know.
24 Attorney's Office, didn't you? 24 Q. You have no opinion about that?
25 A. I don't know. 25 A. I just don't know.
90 (Pages 354 to 357)
Page 358 Page 359
2 Q. You're willing to accuse Mr. Katsyv 2 A. You're talking about the Complaint
3 of having blood money, but you don't know 3 that we filed with New York D.A.'s office?
4 whether it's reasonable to think that the 4 Q. No. This is the United States
5 $800,000 came from clean money? Is that your 5 Complaint against Prevezon.
6 testimony? 6 A. Which exhibit number is this?
7 A. Could you repeat the question. 7 Q. I think it's 2.
8 Q. Yes. You don't think that -- you 8 A. Bear with me for a second. I need
9 don't know whether you should check whether 9 to find this.
10 the 410- and the $447,000 came from Mr. Petrov 10 Would this be Exhibit 2? It
11 as a reasonable changes, a reasonable and 11 doesn't have a number -- it doesn't have a --
12 innocent explanation for the transfers from 12 a sticker on it.
13 Bunicon and Elenast? 13 Q. That's it. Let's put a sticker on
14 A. I don't know when that information 14 it.
15 came, and I don't know whether people who did 15 So Exhibit 2, the original Verified
16 the tracing had that information. 16 Complaint, in paragraph 108.
17 Q. No. They had the information 17 A. Okay.
18 before this Complaint was filed. This is in 18 Q. It's the same statement in 108.
19 the original complaint also. 19 Representative on stated funds involved in the
20 Should we look at the paragraph in 20 February 2008 transfer derived from a deal
21 the original Complaint? This is before the 21 between Mr. Krit and his friend, a Mr. Petrov.
22 Complaint was filed. 22 A. So what's the question?
23 Exhibit 2, the original Complaint. 23 Q. So this information came from your
24 A. Where -- where am I looking? 24 team?
25 Q. Looking at... 25 A. The Petrov story?
Page 360 Page 361
2 Q. Yes. 2 Q. Well, let's assess it right now.
3 A. Are you sure? 3 You have $20 million going through an account,
4 Q. Yes. It came from the OCCRP. 4 $800,000 coming out, and the person who's
5 A. So I -- I don't see it in here. Is 5 accounts received the money says, "I have a
6 it -- can you show me in here where -- where 6 perfectly good explanation. It came from
7 that statement is? 7 Mr. Petrov."
8 Q. I don't think it's in there. 8 And you don't think it's your
9 A. So how did it come from me? 9 obligation, before you accuse him of having
10 Q. It came from the OCCPR [sic] that 10 blood money, to check out his story?
11 you gave to the U.S. attorney. 11 A. I'm not sure we have that
12 A. No. The OCCRP gave us information, 12 information.
13 not the other way around. 13 Q. Obviously you had it, because it's
14 Q. Yes. And then you gave it to the 14 in the Complaint, the first -- very first
15 U.S. attorney. So you had, from the OCCRP, 15 Complaint?
16 this quote from Representative One. 16 A. It's not in this Complaint.
17 A. I'm -- I'm not sure that's the 17 Q. Mr. Hyman says that he got
18 case. I don't believe it. Not -- not to my 18 information for this complaint from you and
19 knowledge. 19 Mr. Kleiner and some websites you directed him
20 Q. You think it would have been 20 to. So you had the information.
21 irresponsible to make a complaint against 21 A. I -- not -- not -- not to my
22 Prevezon without checking out the explanation 22 knowledge.
23 given by Representative One? 23 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Let's
24 A. I don't know. I haven't assessed 24 assume that you're aware of this explanation.
25 that statement. 25 Would it be irresponsible not to check it out
91 (Pages 358 to 361)
Page 362 Page 363
2 before making a complaint against Mr. Katsyv's 2 Q. It's not obvious to you, if there's
3 companies? 3 an inner -- innocent explanation, you don't
4 A. I can't make a judgment about some 4 choose -- accuse somebody of having blood
5 piece of information taken out of context. 5 money?
6 Q. It's perfectly well in context. It 6 A. The U.S. Attorney's Office have
7 is his explanation for the $800,000. 7 kept it in two Complaints, so obviously they
8 It's not obvious to you that you 8 believe that it's true.
9 ought to check it out? 9 Q. Did you ever try to reach
10 A. I don't believe we had that 10 Mr. Petrov?
11 information. Not to my knowledge. 11 A. No, not to my knowledge. I didn't
12 Q. Well -- 12 personally.
13 A. Because I don't see it in -- I 13 Q. Did anybody in your team attempt to
14 don't see that in -- in this document. 14 reach Mr. Petrov?
15 Q. After this was filed, you had the 15 A. I don't know.
16 information because you had the Complaint. As 16 Q. Who's Mark Fagan?
17 a matter of fact, you had the Complaint before 17 A. He's a Russian lawyer.
18 it was filed, so you would have read it in the 18 Q. Do you know him?
19 drafts. 19 A. No.
20 So you had the information. Did 20 Q. Didn't you come to the
21 you check it out? 21 United States with him when you returned with
22 A. I don't know. 22 Pussy Riot?
23 Q. Don't you think you had an 23 A. No.
24 obligation to check it out? 24 (Whereupon, an off-the-record
25 A. I don't know. 25 discussion was held.)
Page 364 Page 365
2 BY MR. CYMROT: 2 for a book about Sergei Magnitsky.
3 Q. Do you know what the Pussy Riot is? 3 Q. Not your book?
4 A. Of course. 4 A. No.
5 Q. What is it? 5 Q. Another book?
6 A. It's a punk rock band. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What's the significance of it in 7 Q. Do you have Mr. Fagan's telephone
8 Russia? 8 number?
9 A. An anti-Putin -- they're an 9 A. No.
10 anti-Putin punk rock band. 10 Q. So are you familiar with a lawyer
11 Q. And do you support the Pussy Riot 11 by the name of Oleg Lurie?
12 in any way? 12 A. No.
13 A. I took them to meetings in Capitol 13 Q. You've heard about -- I'm sorry.
14 Hill. 14 He's not a -- I said lawyer.
15 Q. And wasn't Mark Fagan there also? 15 A. You did.
16 A. Not with us. 16 Q. Too many lawyers. A reporter by
17 Q. You've never met Mark Fagan? 17 the name of Oleg Lurie?
18 A. I've shaken his hand at a event in 18 A. Yes.
19 London, public event. 19 Q. How do you know Mr. Lurie?
20 Q. When was that? 20 A. I don't.
21 A. It was 2013, November 2013. I 21 Q. Well, you said in a pleading in
22 think. I'd have to ask some people to 22 this court that he was pursuing you for years.
23 remember. 23 You remember saying that?
24 Q. What event was it? 24 A. I remember the -- I remember saying
25 A. I think it was a book-launch event 25 that.
92 (Pages 362 to 365)
Page 366 Page 367
2 Q. Pursuing you in what way? 2 A. I don't know how it was
3 A. There's a documentary that the 3 constructed.
4 Russian government made about me in which Oleg 4 Q. Okay. And you said Mr. Lurie was
5 Lurie is one of their principal attracters. 5 pursuing you for years. That's just recently.
6 Q. That was in 2014? 6 How has he been pursuing you for years?
7 A. I think that was last year. I 7 A. I'd have to go back and do a
8 can't remember exactly when. Could have been 8 search. I'm sure we could find something.
9 this year. 9 Q. In other words, you put in an
10 Q. And you say it was the Russian 10 affidavit to Judge Griesa but you don't have
11 government who put that out? You're just 11 anything to say he was pursuing you for years?
12 assuming that, right? 12 A. Not on the tip of my tongue.
13 A. I'm -- I'm assuming that, yes. 13 Q. And you didn't at the time you
14 Q. Okay. You don't know who put it 14 wrote that and signed the affidavit, right?
15 out? 15 A. I'm sure I did at the time.
16 A. No. But I know it was the Russian 16 Q. You can't recall it now?
17 government. Excuse me. I -- I do know. 17 A. No.
18 Q. How do you know that? 18 Q. It's just a month or two ago?
19 A. Because it was put on the Russian 19 A. Yes.
20 government's television station MTV. 20 Q. Do you have notes you could review
21 Q. So this program was on Russian 21 to see how Mr. Lurie's been pursuing you for
22 government TV? 22 years?
23 A. Correct. 23 A. I could do the research to come up
24 Q. Do you know if they put together 24 with them.
25 the video? 25 Q. You can go back and do research to
Page 368 Page 369
2 support a statement that you swore to before 2 A. My team did. It's complete
3 and presented to Judge Griesa, right? Did you 3 nonsense.
4 have anything at the time? 4 Q. What investigation did your team
5 A. I don't have any notes. 5 do?
6 Q. So you just said it? 6 A. They -- they compared his
7 A. I said it based on my belief at the 7 statements with the facts and came up with a
8 time. 8 conclusion that it was nonsense.
9 Q. Do you have any facts that support 9 Q. And what facts did they compare
10 your belief? 10 them to?
11 A. Not on the tip of my tongue. 11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. And you didn't have any at the 12 Q. It's easy to say it's nonsense. Do
13 time, right? 13 you have any facts to support that statement?
14 A. Wrong. 14 A. My team does.
15 Q. But you don't remember them now? 15 Q. But you have no idea, and you can't
16 A. Right. 16 tell us here what facts would support the idea
17 Q. Did you go out and check 17 that Mr. Lurie's accusation is nonsense?
18 Mr. Lurie's accusation? 18 A. I don't remember exactly what his
19 Did you do any investigation about 19 accusation was, and I don't remember exactly
20 Mr. Lurie's accusation that somebody used your 20 what their rebuttal was, but -- but I -- but
21 name to attempt to bribe him and change the 21 my -- I trust my team to do the analysis.
22 storey about Sergei Magnitsky? 22 Q. Mr. Lurie said that -- that
23 A. That's complete nonsense. 23 somebody using your name contacted him. He
24 Q. You did -- did you do any 24 produced recordings of those conversations.
25 investigation? 25 People using your name offered him $160,000 to
93 (Pages 366 to 369)
Page 370 Page 371
2 change his story about meeting Sergei 2 A. No.
3 Magnitsky in jail. 3 Q. And nobody on your team did?
4 A. That's a lie. 4 A. My team did a full analysis.
5 Q. And how do you know it's a lie? 5 Q. Did they write it down?
6 A. Because I never gave anyone any 6 A. I don't know.
7 money to do anything of the sort. 7 Q. So what was this full analysis?
8 Q. He never took the money. He turned 8 A. They looked at his allegations and
9 it down. 9 looked at the facts and concluded it was
10 A. I never instructed anybody to do 10 complete nonsense, his statements about his
11 anything of the sort. 11 knowledge of Sergei Magnitsky.
12 Q. Did you investigate whether 12 Q. Can you give me any facts that
13 Mr. Lurie was in prison at the same time as 13 would support the very easy statement to say
14 Mr. Magnitsky? 14 that it's nonsense? Do you have any facts?
15 A. He is a convicted -- he's convicted 15 A. To -- to support which part of the
16 exconvict that spent four years in jail for 16 statement?
17 extortion. And so -- and than he come up -- 17 Q. Any part of the statement.
18 came and lied about this thing. 18 A. Well, the first fact is that I
19 Q. I see. So you investigated whether 19 didn't -- I've never bribed or authorized
20 he had been in prison. Was he in prison at 20 anybody to bribe anybody in relation to him or
21 the same time as Mr. Magnitsky? 21 anything to do with him. And I can say that
22 A. I don't know the details of his 22 with 100 percent certainty. That's a fact.
23 imprisonment. 23 Q. Did you check whether anybody --
24 Q. Did you check whether his prison 24 did you check whether he was in prison at the
25 term overlapped with Mr. Magnitsky? 25 same time, in the same prison, as
Page 372 Page 373
2 Mr. Magnitsky? 2 Q. When you met with Mr. Kasyanov, did
3 A. I didn't personally. 3 you talk to him about Mr. Lurie?
4 Q. Do you know whether anybody on your 4 A. No.
5 team did? 5 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Kasyov --
6 A. Yes. 6 Kasyanov is attempting to bring a claim
7 Q. And they discovered what? 7 against Mr. Lurie?
8 A. That his statements were 8 A. I read that on the internet.
9 inconsistent with the truth. 9 Q. Where did you read that?
10 Q. In what way? 10 A. On the internet.
11 A. I'd have to ask them to get the 11 Q. Where on the internet?
12 details. I don't know. 12 A. Some news article.
13 Q. You didn't get briefed on the 13 Q. You can't tell me more than that?
14 details of an accusation that you had bribed a 14 A. No.
15 witness to change his testimony. Does that 15 Q. Did you investigate anything about
16 say you -- you never got briefed on this? 16 Mr. Lurie's background?
17 A. I -- I was briefed on it, but I 17 A. No.
18 don't remember the details. 18 Q. Did you investigate him as a
19 Q. When you were briefed on it? 19 reporter?
20 A. Whenever it happened. 20 A. No.
21 Q. It happened just a few weeks ago. 21 Q. Did you investigate whether he's
22 A. Yes. 22 won awards in the west for his reporting?
23 Q. You were briefed on it a few weeks 23 A. No.
24 ago, and you have no specifics to tell us? 24 Q. So you're unaware of any of that?
25 A. That's correct. 25 A. Unaware. Yes, I'm unaware.
94 (Pages 370 to 373)
Page 374 Page 375
2 Q. Okay. You're unaware that he has 2 A. No.
3 spent many years trying to determine how the 3 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Magnitsky
4 IMF money that went into Republic National 4 turned down legal assistance from you?
5 Bank in 1998 ended up stolen? 5 A. No.
6 A. I wasn't aware of that. 6 Q. He always accepted your legal
7 Q. Mr. Safra was your partner, and he 7 assistance?
8 owned the bank, right? 8 A. Yes.
9 A. Correct. 9 Q. So you provided him with lawyers?
10 Q. You're unaware that Mr. Lurie was 10 A. His firm did and we reimbursed
11 looking into that? 11 them.
12 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Firestone and Duncan?
13 Q. Has the U.S. Attorney's Office 13 A. Correct.
14 asked you about Mr. Lurie's affidavit? 14 Q. And they would periodically provide
15 A. No. 15 him with statements -- provide Mr. Magnitsky
16 Q. Has anybody in the government asked 16 with statements that he should sign?
17 you about Mr. Lurie's affidavit? 17 A. Who?
18 A. No. 18 Q. Firestone Duncan or his lawyers
19 Q. Mr. Lurie says that he had two 19 hired by Firestone Duncan.
20 meetings with Sergei Magnitsky while they were 20 A. I'm -- I'm not -- I don't know what
21 in prison, right? 21 you're talking about.
22 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Did you consult with
23 Q. Didn't you read his affidavit? 23 Mr. Magnitsky's lawyers from time to time?
24 A. No. 24 A. No.
25 Q. You didn't even read it? 25 Q. Somebody on your team do that?
Page 376 Page 377
2 A. Possibly. I don't know. 2 tax returns?
3 Q. People at Firestone Duncan would 3 A. I don't remember.
4 have, right? 4 MR. CYMROT: Okay. Why don't we
5 A. Surely. 5 take a break.
6 Q. Did you have Brown Rudnick 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
7 representing you at the time? 7 6:24 p.m. We're off the record.
8 A. No. 8 (Whereupon, at this time, a short
9 Q. So Firestone Duncan was your lawyer 9 break was taken.)
10 at the time? 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
11 A. Not the only ones. We had other 11 6:34 p.m. We are back on the record.
12 lawyers. 12 BY MR. CYMROT:
13 Q. So did anybody coordinate on your 13 Q. I asked you about taping. We
14 behalf with Firestone Duncan about the 14 talked about specific taping, but does
15 death -- the defense of Mr. Magnitsky? 15 Hermitage have a taping system for taping
16 A. I don't know. 16 incoming and outgoing calls generally for
17 Q. You don't know? 17 regulatory purposes or otherwise?
18 A. I don't remember. 18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were being criminally 19 Q. And how long do you keep those
20 prosecuted along with Mr. Magnitsky at that 20 tapes?
21 time. You didn't pay attention? 21 A. I don't know the details.
22 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 22 Q. Do you know whether those tapes
23 Q. Did you ever have somebody suggest 23 have been searched for any relevant
24 to Mr. Magnitsky that he should take 24 conversations?
25 responsibility for the Saturn and Dalnaya Step 25 A. I don't know.
95 (Pages 374 to 377)
Page 378 Page 379
2 MR. CYMROT: All right. As we 2 worth of questions about the documents
3 discussed off the record, we have 3 you had, and I think it's improper to
4 12 minutes left or something on the 4 make a witness from England try to sit
5 seven hours. We believe we're 5 for another deposition over 12
6 entitled to many additional documents, 6 minutes.
7 and we also have insufficient time to 7 So we're willing to sit here for
8 finish another major subject. 8 another 12 minutes if you wish, but I
9 So what we're going to do is 9 think anything else is improper.
10 suspend the deposition at this point. 10 So thank you.
11 We're going to reserve our right to -- 11 MR. CYMROT: Okay. All right.
12 to ask the judge for additional time 12 All right. I understand the
13 once we get the documents and keep the 13 government has no questions; is that
14 deposition open. 14 right?
15 MR. KIM: Okay. Well, I disagree. 15 MR. MONTELEONI: That's correct.
16 I think, for the record, we offered to 16 MR. CYMROT: All right. So we're
17 reschedule the deposition at the 17 going to reserve our rights. There's
18 Defendants' convenience if they felt 18 no point in arguing. As we both know,
19 it was necessary. The Defendants 19 the judge will decide whatever he
20 wanted to proceed, as was their right, 20 decides.
21 so we showed up here. 21 So thank you, Mr. Browder, for
22 I think, regardless whether you 22 coming, and we'll expect another
23 wanted to ask more questions about 23 session.
24 other documents, you chose to ask 24 MR. KIM: All right. Have a good
25 approximately 6 hours and 48 minutes 25 evening.
Page 380 Page 381
1 WILLIAM F. BROWDER (4/15/15) 1
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2 ------------------I N D E X------------------
3 6:36 p.m. We're off the record. 3 WITNESS: WILLIAM F. BROWDER
4 (Whereupon, at 6:36 p.m., the 4 EXAMINATION BY PAGE
5 Examination of this Witness was 5 MR. CYMROT 6
6 adjourned, sine die.) 6
7
8
7 ----------------E X H I B I T S--------------
________________________
8 BROWDER EXHIBIT FOR I.D.
9 WILLIAM F. BROWDER 9 Browder Exhibit 1, 10
10 10 Document Bates stamped
11 Subscribed and sworn to before me 11 PREV_000003127_001 through '166
12 This _______ day of __________, 2015. 12 Browder Exhibit 2, 27
13 13 Verified Complaint, Filed on
____________________________________ 14 9/10/13
14 NOTARY PUBLIC 15 Browder Exhibit 3, 68
15 16 Document Bates stamped
16 17 BrowderDepo0001471 through '477
17 18 Browder Exhibit 4, 72
18
19 Document Bates stamped
19
20
20 BrowderDepo0001478 through '484
21 21 Browder Exhibit 5, 77
22 22 Spark Report for
23 23 Dalnaya Step, LLC
24 24
25 25
96 (Pages 378 to 381)

Page 382 Page 383
1 1
2 Browder Exhibit 6, 81 2 Browder Exhibit 13, 172
3 Document Bates stamped 3 Document Entitled "Plaintiff's
4 BrowderDepo0001518 through '521 4 Responses to Defendants' First
5 Browder Exhibit 7, 82 5 Set of Interrogatories"
6 Document Bates stamped 6 Browder Exhibit 14, 208
7 BrowderDepo0001522 through '530 7 Verified Amended Complaint
9 Document Bates stamped 9 Document Bates stamped
10 BrowderDepo0001531 through '535 10 PREV_000002326
12 Document Bates stamped 12 Subpoena
13 BrowderDepo0001485 through '517 13 Browder Exhibit 17, 303
14 Browder Exhibit 10, 105 14 Document Entitled "White House
15 Document Bates stamped 15 Visitor Records Requests"
17 Browder Exhibit 11, 138 17 Document Bates stamped
18 Document Bates stamped 18 BrowderDepo0000548 through '581
20 Browder Exhibit 12, 146 20 Document Bates stamped
21 Document Bates stamped 21 BrowderDepo0001643 through '670
23 23 Press Release
24 24
25 25
Page 384 Page 385
1 1
2 Browder Exhibit 21, 345 2 CERTIFICATE
3 Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty 3
4 Article of September 18, 2013 4 STATE OF NEW YORK )
5 : SS.:
6 5 COUNTY OF RICHMOND )
6
7 7 I, AYLETTE GONZALEZ, a Notary Public
8 8 for and within the State of New York, do
9 9 hereby certify:
10 10 That the witness, WILLIAM F.
11 11 BROWDER, whose examination is hereinbefore
12 12 set forth was duly sworn and that such
13 13 examination is a true record of the testimony
14 14 given by that witness.
15 15 I further certify that I am not
16 16 related to any of the parties to this action
17 17 by blood or by marriage and that I am in no
18 18 way interested in the outcome of this matter.
19 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
20 set my hand this 15th day of April, 2015.
20 21
21 22 __________________________
22 AYLETTE GONZALEZ
23 23
24 24
25 25
97 (Pages 382 to 385)

Page 386
1
2 ERRATA SHEET FOR THE TRANSCRIPT OF:
3 Case Name:
Dep. Date:
4 Deponent:
5 Pg. Ln. Now Reads Should Read Reason
6 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
7 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
8 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
9 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
10 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
11 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
12 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
13 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
14 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
15 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
16 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
17 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
18 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
19 ___ ___ ______________ _______________ _____
20 ________________________
21
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME,
22
This___ day of_____________, 2015.
23
__________________________________
24 Notary Public
25 My Commission Expires:__________
98 (Page 386)
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276:2,3 280:19,21 143:2 147:10 Elenast 163:18 entry 105:6 127:22 150:25
280:23 281:7,11 375:12,18,19 165:6 170:4 Episode 329:14 339:23 366:8
282:13,18,20 376:3,9,14 311:12,15 312:16 330:8,14 331:21 369:18,19
286:22 311:21 Duncan's 112:21 313:2,17,22 era 290:4 examination 6:7
312:2,5 378:6,13 Dutch 316:9 354:14,24 355:5 Ernst 68:2 117:12 138:15
378:24 379:2 dying 291:7 356:5,9 357:14 ERRATA 386:2 171:15 172:5
doing 16:25,25 D-A-L-N-A-Y-A 358:13 escalation 339:5 380:5 381:4
59:4 61:21 67:7 76:2 elicit 259:6 261:22 escape 215:15 385:11,13
67:24 78:22,23 D.A 16:19,20 19:5 339:10,22 ESQ 3:8,9,17,18,19 examine 117:10
102:15 151:9,10 19:19 20:19 29:3 elicited 196:25 4:8,9,17,18 examined 6:6
205:21,23 324:22 149:20 201:20 else's 346:18 establish 249:16 examining 141:15
325:11 353:15 302:4 319:22 Emerald 276:7 250:8 example 238:3
dollars 47:7,9 322:6,18 344:16 emotion 291:11 established 148:20 examples 32:15
163:3,8 359:3 employees 64:8,11 156:16 248:21 exception 8:12
domain 131:20 65:10 67:4 69:5 estate 212:4 252:7 excess 323:2
door 234:25 235:6 E 69:15,16,19,23 278:6 279:5,22 exchange 82:8
dots 42:25 43:2,4,7 E 3:2,2 4:2,2 6:2 70:4 78:19 80:3,8 280:2,14 314:23 208:5,6 273:15,19
43:13,15,17 44:6 171:2,2 172:3 297:17 315:2 316:8,11,14 315:4
44:12,20,21,23 381:2,7 385:2,2 ended 305:12 374:5 et 1:8 5:6 39:16 exchanged 160:25
45:14 46:9,14 earlier 13:11 enemy 56:4 204:21 288:2 exconvict 370:16
47:17 330:20,24 171:14 289:18 enforcement 36:13 309:15 Excuse 137:17
331:16 333:4,6,12 340:19 119:21 194:17,25 Europe 314:20 224:7 366:17
333:18,24 334:4 early 315:17 195:3,10,21,23 316:8,12,15 346:8 execute 120:14
doubt 161:7 299:11 earnings 288:19 196:8,12 Europe/Radio executed 91:3
334:13 easy 369:12 371:13 engaged 69:5 345:9,12 384:3 96:14
dozens 124:23 ECF 1:7 249:13 326:7 euros 238:22 239:8 executive 101:21
draft 24:11 economic 70:12 engineer 70:25 259:8 261:9 262:4 168:19 304:14
drafted 26:20,23 economics 43:11 England 13:16 263:12 268:14 exempt 318:14
drafts 362:19 290:6 379:4 evasion 93:15 exhibit 6:20 10:9
Dubai 212:4,10 Economii 238:16 English 68:15 106:5 10:11,20 11:16
222:15 252:8,10 editorial 271:24 105:25 109:22,23 evening 379:25 27:21,24 28:4,24
252:21 254:5 editorializing 140:20 event 104:2 364:18 29:2 37:4 41:20
279:23 280:5 352:8 enormous 282:17 364:19,24,25 45:2 51:11,14,18
due 56:11,15 63:6 Edmond 97:25 entered 83:20 events 85:14 121:6 51:18,19,21 53:19
71:11,18,23 73:25 education 43:8 enterprise 47:14 140:5,8 293:15 53:19 65:13 68:12
74:9 76:24 85:10 70:16,23 127:21 336:14 294:14 68:17 72:4,9
85:25 88:15 89:14 Edward 44:14 350:5,11 eventually 16:12 77:16,18 80:23

Page 397
81:4 82:15 84:14 164:8,18 165:4 F 147:1 148:1 149:1 290:1 291:1 292:1
84:20 89:25 90:2 170:7 201:25 F 1:15 2:6 6:1,2 7:1 150:1 151:1 152:1 293:1 294:1 295:1
101:11,14 105:19 265:6,8 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 153:1 154:1 155:1 296:1 297:1 298:1
112:14,19 138:9 explained 271:21 12:1 13:1 14:1 156:1 157:1 158:1 299:1 300:1 301:1
146:12,16 149:19 explanation 165:10 15:1 16:1 17:1 159:1 160:1 161:1 302:1 303:1 304:1
158:5 162:23 166:15,18,19,22 18:1 19:1 20:1 162:1 163:1 164:1 304:2 305:1 306:1
172:13,14 199:8 166:23 167:10,15 21:1 22:1 23:1 165:1 166:1 167:1 307:1 308:1 309:1
201:10 208:22,23 167:17,18,21 24:1 25:1 26:1 168:1 169:1 170:1 310:1 311:1 312:1
209:3 217:3,6,10 262:3 319:13 27:1 28:1 29:1 171:1,2 172:1,3 313:1 314:1 315:1
218:9 236:12,12 340:5 357:9,10,19 30:1 31:1 32:1 173:1 174:1 175:1 316:1 317:1 318:1
236:17 239:16,22 357:20 358:12 33:1 34:1 35:1 176:1 177:1 178:1 319:1 320:1 321:1
248:15 252:18 360:22 361:6,24 36:1 37:1 38:1 179:1 180:1 181:1 322:1 323:1 324:1
256:11 267:14,15 362:7 363:3 39:1 40:1 41:1 182:1 183:1 184:1 325:1 326:1 327:1
285:6,8,11,15,21 explanations 42:1 43:1 44:1 185:1 186:1 187:1 328:1 329:1 330:1
286:20 295:17 164:16 45:1 46:1 47:1 188:1 189:1 190:1 331:1 332:1 333:1
303:13,19 311:11 explore 241:10,12 48:1 49:1 50:1 191:1 192:1 193:1 334:1 335:1 336:1
311:22 318:13,16 242:21 51:1 52:1 53:1 194:1 195:1 196:1 337:1 338:1 339:1
319:22 328:5,10 Export 259:10 54:1 55:1 56:1 197:1 198:1 199:1 340:1 341:1 342:1
338:2,6,10 345:9 261:2 262:5,23 57:1 58:1 59:1 200:1 201:1 202:1 343:1 344:1 345:1
345:11 354:10 express 176:11 60:1 61:1 62:1 203:1 204:1 205:1 346:1 347:1 348:1
355:9,10,14,17,19 expressed 348:16 63:1 64:1 65:1 206:1 207:1 208:1 349:1 350:1 351:1
358:23 359:6,10 349:7 66:1 67:1 68:1 209:1 210:1 211:1 352:1 353:1 354:1
359:15 381:8,9,12 expression 348:8 69:1 70:1 71:1 212:1 213:1 214:1 355:1 356:1 357:1
381:15,18,21 349:12,24 72:1 73:1 74:1 215:1 216:1 217:1 358:1 359:1 360:1
382:2,5,8,11,14 expulsion 92:15 75:1 76:1 77:1 218:1 219:1 220:1 361:1 362:1 363:1
382:17,20 383:2,6 extensive 125:17 78:1 79:1 80:1 221:1 222:1 223:1 364:1 365:1 366:1
383:8,11,13,16,19 extent 176:13 81:1 82:1 83:1 224:1 225:1 226:1 367:1 368:1 369:1
383:22 384:2 179:10 180:13 84:1 85:1 86:1 227:1 228:1 229:1 370:1 371:1 372:1
exhibits 259:15 184:22 186:20 87:1 88:1 89:1 230:1 231:1 232:1 373:1 374:1 375:1
exist 141:11 187:3,5,22 190:23 90:1 91:1 92:1 233:1 234:1 235:1 376:1 377:1 378:1
existence 187:3 193:11,21 194:8 93:1 94:1 95:1 236:1 237:1 238:1 379:1 380:1,9
326:12 195:7 326:4,11 96:1 97:1 98:1 239:1 240:1 241:1 381:3 385:2,10
Expansion 345:17 external 31:6 99:1 100:1 101:1 242:1 243:1 244:1 face 291:4
expect 335:21 extort 206:3 102:1 103:1 104:1 245:1 246:1 247:1 fact 75:19 78:20
336:24 337:12 extortion 206:8 105:1 106:1 107:1 248:1 249:1 250:1 85:15 128:12
379:22 370:17 108:1 109:1 110:1 251:1 252:1 253:1 162:2 170:3
expelled 92:8 extract 260:4,7 111:1 112:1 113:1 254:1 255:1 256:1 233:16,16,18,21
expenses 317:16,17 ex-husband 211:21 114:1 115:1 116:1 257:1 258:1 259:1 234:11 254:9
experience 43:21 223:5 224:8 117:1 118:1 119:1 260:1 261:1 262:1 281:24 287:17
43:22 324:18 Ex-husband's 120:1 121:1 122:1 263:1 264:1 265:1 350:15 362:17
expert 65:23,24 224:7 123:1 124:1 125:1 266:1 267:1 268:1 371:18,22
69:6,13 191:9 eyes 36:5 126:1 127:1 128:1 269:1 270:1 271:1 facts 93:11,16
273:21 282:3 e-mail 160:17,19 129:1 130:1 131:1 272:1 273:1 274:1 122:14,15 179:7
expertise 43:4 160:21 175:5 132:1 133:1 134:1 275:1 276:1 277:1 179:23 181:11,15
167:13 296:12 135:1 136:1 137:1 278:1 279:1 280:1 183:21 211:12,14
Expires 386:25 e-mails 160:25 138:1 139:1 140:1 281:1 282:1 283:1 226:15,20 233:15
explain 37:11 161:12,25 208:5,6 141:1 142:1 143:1 284:1 285:1 286:1 233:22 258:19
102:18 163:15,20 208:17 353:6,24 144:1 145:1 146:1 287:1 288:1 289:1 281:2,8 340:20

Page 398
368:9 369:7,9,13 Felix 107:13 359:9 367:8 flight 128:20 136:6 164:4,13,23 165:9
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371:14 fellow 220:13 225:10,15 226:22 137:19 168:7,9,13 169:14
factual 122:18 221:24 finds 70:11 focus 311:9 169:20 170:9,15
Fagan 363:16 felt 24:23 330:22 fine 8:4 63:6,14 focused 151:9 181:3 189:7 225:6
364:15,17 331:3,7 378:18 71:16 291:15 focuses 335:9 226:17 234:2
Fagan's 365:7 fence 244:19 326:19 follow 37:23,24 243:22 244:25
fair 162:8 347:20 fencing 247:3 fined 71:11 followed 151:18 245:3 246:14,21
fake 31:16,19,21 field 127:24 finish 343:6 378:8 300:21 247:17 264:22
fall 18:17 Fifteen 18:3 Firestone 66:6,14 following 121:14 271:23 274:17
falls 263:19,25 fifth 103:24 66:17 67:4 68:2 147:8 211:25 283:4 313:14,19
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familiar 25:7,10,12 fight 162:3 125:3,25 143:2 follows 6:6 172:4 345:4
28:22 119:16 file 66:9 90:13 147:10 328:19 foreign 100:25 formal 157:17
197:8 209:6 165:25 189:16,19 375:12,18,19 273:15,19 288:22 formalities 188:21
365:10 189:25 227:10,13 376:3,9,14 289:3,6,12 former 335:19
family 290:3,21 227:16,19,20 Firestone's 114:19 forensic 116:9 forms 229:22
339:6,7,8,19 228:4 288:24 firm 9:10 39:13 117:4 forth 9:20 302:23
far 9:2 24:17,25 filed 18:14,15,18 66:7 86:17 97:8 foreseeable 334:22 322:22 385:12
25:10 41:13 45:11 18:21 21:12 24:12 97:13,21 125:3 335:18 Forty-five 306:23
93:9 141:21 27:13,22,25 46:20 289:2 305:10,11 forge 113:20 forward 266:25
155:14,19 156:13 46:21 66:24 67:3 375:10 forged 125:9,16 found 56:14 71:6
156:17,23 159:22 166:4 209:4,19,22 firms 68:3 147:25 78:19 79:12,16
163:19 210:24 229:23 230:7,9 first 6:4 17:2 18:21 forgotten 135:7 80:2 81:21 82:2
262:6 279:9,10 237:6 248:8 19:15 20:6,7 21:4 form 23:18 26:19 85:4 90:19 91:4
283:14 291:14,17 255:21 351:11 29:18 64:2 81:19 28:12,16,18 32:12 107:13 191:7
292:5 293:21,22 356:20 358:18,22 81:24 85:3 97:14 32:23,25 33:3 229:21 351:11,25
294:3 311:22 359:3 362:15,18 106:11 117:2 34:25 36:7,21 four 69:9 70:15
352:13 381:13 118:21 126:13 39:25 40:6,24 271:10 311:14
father 290:5,9 files 22:15,17 23:9 146:23 148:9,10 43:5 45:4 47:8 370:16
faulting 7:6 353:8,10,11,13 148:13,15 172:16 48:7 49:17 50:15 fourth 38:21
features 125:10 filing 21:5 48:14 172:21 211:16 54:21 55:6 58:8 140:11 147:7
February 68:13 58:22 189:23 212:18 237:18 59:23 65:11 68:7 fraud 39:15 47:2,4
72:19 139:20 filings 46:23 240:15 259:7 72:23 73:14 75:5 47:5,11,15 55:11
174:14 176:8 197:12 268:2 275:15,21 75:8,14 80:19 55:14,18,19,22
238:13,21 270:10 Fill 271:20 300:11 303:24 85:21 86:2 88:17 95:2,9 115:5,7,11
294:20,24 295:4 finalized 8:22 318:24 335:9 90:18 91:12,20,25 115:16,21 120:12
304:3,8,12 354:13 finally 95:10 338:24,25 345:18 96:19 99:22 120:15,16,20,24
354:23 356:4,8 finan 240:19 349:13 354:21 109:15 110:19 121:6,11,21 122:3
359:20 finance 242:25 361:14,14 371:18 118:10,14 119:23 122:4,6,24 123:9
federal 18:14,15 243:11 383:4 120:2 121:2,12 133:10 134:14,17
49:10 64:6 73:21 financier 240:20 five 69:10 160:5 122:8 127:8 145:6,16 153:19
74:24 83:12 92:10 find 29:12 118:20 239:4 325:7,11,25 129:25 130:11 173:9,11 177:12
Federation 92:14 123:2 126:10 340:9 131:12 132:4,11 178:2 180:6,12
92:18 106:3,17 228:22 229:2 flags 248:21 133:12,15,18,22 183:11,13,18,24
197:14 250:17 244:24 247:12 flew 123:11,16 134:9,19 135:18 184:10 198:11
feel 135:5 308:23 249:19 259:14 124:2,15 136:10 145:7 156:20 199:5 210:10
350:6 279:25 322:21 136:14 137:12,18 161:16 163:5,22 211:25,25 216:16

Page 399
220:11,23 221:8 173:21 200:24 182:20 191:12 211:15 220:13 2:10 385:7,22
222:18 234:16 201:6 271:11 192:16 204:5,13 230:4 237:17,18 good 65:19,20
237:16 244:14 285:17 311:19,23 206:25 216:24 237:22 248:12 102:15 111:4
248:5 260:18,24 323:12 324:8 224:22 233:15,16 249:18 252:25 128:6 157:20
272:23 277:16 354:4,23 359:19 233:16,18,21,23 258:10 259:5 172:7 361:6
278:12,18 279:3 funny 214:7 235:17,22 243:2 271:6 272:2 278:4 379:24
280:14,15,17 further 8:19 70:4 243:16,20 244:13 283:9 295:15 gotten 9:2 111:5
281:10 282:12,17 199:12 292:22 244:21 245:9,14 323:17,24 336:3 162:6,7 282:23
282:22 285:17 320:16 336:21 246:10 247:6,19 336:21 342:6,13 govern 112:11
292:4 294:12 385:15 256:20 266:14 343:6 354:9 201:15
324:9 334:20 275:4 282:6 355:16 367:7,25 governance 151:10
340:15 341:14 G 284:13 289:15,19 368:17 governing 102:25
343:2,2,3 353:14 Gabriella 9:11 289:22 291:12 goes 84:25 107:15 government 9:4
355:7 gap 265:16 312:7 371:12 148:7 271:9 99:21 100:2,4,15
frauds 47:15 gaps 271:20 given 7:11 8:5 10:4 291:22 320:15 100:23 112:11
115:14 gathered 39:20 22:16,18 26:13 going 5:7 29:2 118:23 119:5,7
fraudster 123:17 42:23 79:18 93:2,3 30:14 47:16 80:16 166:8 172:23
124:12 131:3 Gathering 310:21 131:15 154:23 94:4 101:11 174:5,8,20 176:17
fraudulent 55:17 Gazprom 39:16 159:14 161:10,14 117:11 122:14 177:10,15 185:15
fraudulently 113:9 100:20,24 174:6,6,9 188:14 128:12,14 129:5 191:13 204:15
229:20 Gazzetta 45:18 202:21 208:15 130:19 131:2 218:12,18,20
free 185:10 317:15 general 47:19 58:2 217:7 239:22 137:23 140:4,11 237:19,24 238:8
345:9,11 346:8 58:5,7,9,11,16,18 252:6,12 262:16 142:11 146:21 239:23 242:17
384:3 58:20,21 63:9 263:3 360:23 147:2,5 158:5 291:6 326:6 327:3
friend 354:15,25 69:22 77:2,11,23 385:14 161:19 162:4,19 329:23 330:16
359:21 78:11,14 139:21 gives 129:10 242:6 163:17 164:20 332:13,23 346:8
friends 339:7,19 178:7 233:17 251:17 165:5,13 166:11 351:10 366:4,11
front 45:7 84:19 236:14 237:8 giving 50:18 80:11 167:4,7,9 172:11 366:17,22 374:16
152:24 299:23 248:9 357:11 80:12 208:4 172:12 176:17,21 379:13
FSB 56:6 generalization 243:23 176:22 179:8,14 government's
full 70:10 110:5 252:3 Glendora 62:3 180:7 186:11,18 112:12,13 119:2,3
333:20 354:21 generally 98:22 149:25 152:8,18 190:9 192:19 119:12 176:23
371:4,7 185:9 199:20 Global 317:3 193:25 194:6 184:2 366:20
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functionaries 213:2 generate 98:23 go 18:8 26:3 28:20 207:18 208:22 100:21
fund 26:9 57:5,24 gentlemen 112:3 37:3 40:8 53:18 224:2 237:13 Grafton 296:3
58:10 59:15,20 German 314:23 63:3 70:4,9 71:9 240:25 251:18 Grand 198:9,14
60:5,8,12,14 getting 168:24 72:3 78:18 80:20 254:13 257:13 199:4 299:19,23
62:11,19,20,23 199:23 317:7 102:4 106:4 267:10,19 271:19 grandmother
64:2 76:5,16,18 342:7 111:19 112:8 277:3 279:14 291:5
87:14 89:20 90:16 Gillett 44:17 114:15,15 123:4,8 282:11,16 299:23 grant 229:23
91:19 93:14 give 21:2 34:20 126:11 127:10 308:19 318:12 gravity 173:24
140:10 150:6,9,14 48:6 54:13 66:12 130:20 135:25 326:9 336:19 great 192:21
150:19,19 168:18 81:3 94:4 107:6 148:24 157:22,25 337:25 342:6 Griesa 8:23 367:10
funded 62:20 123:2 147:16 159:25 164:2 350:17 357:13,21 368:3
funding 317:9 149:3,7,7,10 169:25 170:6,10 361:3 378:9,11 grounds 91:8 93:14
funds 57:12 62:9 164:15 166:14 170:16 171:25 379:17 176:19
62:14 76:16 103:8 170:14 180:18 187:25 208:21 GONZALEZ 1:21 group 86:20,23

Page 400
145:15 276:8 head 13:2 124:13 150:19 168:18,23 303:19 304:7,12 identification
329:17,21 332:3 190:18 202:19 169:5 170:5 304:15,19,20 10:11,22 28:2
332:11 210:3,6 212:14 189:15,18,24 307:20 310:3 68:19 72:6 77:20
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Guernsey 60:10,11 230:9 290:5,11,18 237:6 248:8 HS 87:14 101:16 105:22
87:15 113:7 125:4 290:22 298:23 256:16 296:2 HSBC 60:10,10 138:12 146:19
150:7 151:4,13,21 317:3 319:8 328:17,18 87:14,15 113:7 172:18 208:25
151:25 152:2,25 health 80:12 338:3 339:3 125:4 150:6,17,18 236:19 295:18
157:4 hear 36:20 348:25 377:15 151:4,13,21,23,23 303:16,18 318:19
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98:12 162:15 144:14,17 148:10 54:16 124:20,21 153:4,5 157:4,6 345:14
176:9 195:12 148:16 309:18 hero 330:16 332:23 huge 282:12 identified 7:19 8:13
guest 228:20 365:13 hide 183:23 329:20 human 205:20 166:11
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guilty 107:13 89:17 105:10 hiding 183:17 husband 211:21 236:22 295:21
guy 347:7 116:22 138:22 high 248:24 254:17 212:3 222:23 338:10
guys 162:17 146:10 203:12 324:23 328:11 223:4 224:8 234:7 identities 113:18
217:19 236:24 334:24 335:20 234:10 254:8 ignore 227:2
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hand 53:24 105:2 help 46:13,16 47:17 327:13 Hyman 19:12 27:6 245:8,13 246:9,10
215:18 335:16 138:24 200:18 Hill 364:14 160:3 285:24 247:5,9,13 291:17
364:18 385:20 228:24 271:19 hired 375:19 344:23 361:17 illegally 61:22
handed 344:19 helped 46:23 hiring 63:16 246:20
handicapped 64:5 helpful 228:17 history 230:13 I illegible 29:13
64:10,13 hereinbefore hold 89:17 162:18 idea 15:5 17:22 ill-treatment 334:8
handicaps 78:20 385:11 228:25 23:14,21 26:24 334:16
handing 68:15 hereunto 385:19 holder 221:13 30:7,9,12,15 31:7 Im 132:6
handled 148:25 herewith 250:11 272:9 31:14,18 32:16 imagine 26:22
hands 133:9 Hermitage 12:13 holding 59:6,8 62:6 37:7,20 38:24,25 74:10,12 209:10
happen 85:19,23 21:10 22:15 23:16 62:7 153:9 296:25 39:2 40:4,7 41:3,6 301:13 313:25
101:5 26:8 30:24 31:5 297:8 298:13 41:10,22,24 42:17 IMF 374:4
happened 12:22 40:15 54:20 56:18 316:8 42:18,19,20,22 immediately 269:7
15:20 16:7 90:24 57:5,24 58:10 holdings 1:7 5:6 46:22 60:13 67:20 269:19,21
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216:3 299:13 76:5,16,17 82:11 339:13 354:5 168:14 222:20 implicate 196:7
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happening 61:4 90:16 91:19 93:14 3:13 264:18,21 265:4 important 100:20
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hard 70:18 121:14 114:12,19 121:10 378:5,25 313:10 319:2 176:16
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Page 414
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Page 415
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Browder's First Deposition - April 15th, 2015

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Browder's First Deposition - April 15th, 2015

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Page 1

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

39 (Pages 150 to 153)

96 (Pages 378 to 381)

97 (Pages 382 to 385)

A accountants 43:24 activism 151:11 advisor 58:4 60:7,9 349:9 371:8

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Andrew's 3:6 199:3 203:23 appropriate 214:12 343:4 351:5 351:25

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Attorney's 5:16 authority 71:11 B 123:18 125:18 basing 347:12

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

352:1 353:1 354:1 bunch 235:24 338:15 227:5,10,13,15 characterization

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

379:3,9 62:10 76:18,19 230:19,22 231:4 insolvent 83:11 330:17 332:23

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

kill 330:18 332:25 182:6,12,22 218:10,25 219:24 134:15,16 135:23 272:18,20,21,22

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

183:11,17,23 larger 329:18 345:20 363:17 232:11 233:5 114:16 119:10

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

306:8,10,12,16 107:4,7 112:16 Lurie 365:11,17,19 magnitude 173:25 81:3,6 82:17

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

162:2,16 176:9 met 13:14 49:13 263:10,14,17,19 255:24 344:8,13 354:12

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

280:4 323:12 229:3 237:22 197:4 299:20 20:12,14 21:10,25 352:10

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

312:7 317:4 320:4 rules 64:12 355:7 363:17 145:5,8,11,11 114:6,9,11,12,23

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

stopped 14:4,7,9 297:11 299:19 226:21 254:10 344:12,14,15,15 228:21 236:7

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

326:1 327:1 328:1 197:3 198:16,17 worldwide 195:11 90:9,13 95:19 $

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

500 125:15 217:10,17 312:12

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

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