question in the land of the pyramid. But, you know, how do you find things in Egypt? How do you find things in this kind of sandy or very green landscape? I mean how? >> That's an excellent question and it's of prime importance to us obviously and the fact that Abydos is a known site and is always been a known site. Well, you know it's there. So, what >> Right. >> You know, what do you have to do to find things? >> Right. >> It's huge. And you're not looking for just anything. >> How big is it? >> it's several kilometers long and and a few wide. So depending on how you define the site. But at least >> Which is always tricky. We've talked about site definition and it's like,oh. Where does the site end? >> Absolutely, and in many ways it's many sites, as opposed to a single site. I mean, what ,you've got a town site, you've got multiple town sites, you've got a cemeteries, you have temples. >> And in different periods, there. So does Abydos start small and get big and then >> That's an excellent question too both horizontally and vertically the extent of the site is still something we are struggling to define in many ways. And, of course, what we want to find we are going to asking specific research questions and then going after things what the answer those. So it's not just hey, where is something? Can we brush it off? It's hey, where's the thing that's going to tell us what we want to know. >> Okay, so you start with a question. >> We start with the questions absolutely and then, and target out research. And in terms of how we find the things that, that answer the questions I have been asking. >> Right. >> There are a couple of mechanisms we use. Ultimately almost everything I'm doing relies on excavation. >> Okay. >> But even to decide where to excavate you have to have a first step again its a huge site. >> I was going to, yeah, one of the things how you know. Since I'm not a big digger I was so, how on earth do you know where to start you know? >> Sure. >> So, what do you do? >> Well you can do survey as a, as a prelude to, to excavation. And survey can take a couple of forms. Simply walking the ground and seeing where concentrations of artifacts are. Where the artifacts from the particular period that you are interested in. >> gotcha, okay, alright. >> Like, this can be of enormous help. >> Okay. >> Telling you where to look. We also in Abydos have recently been using a magnetometry survey, which is a sub surface survey. >> Remote sensing? >> Absolutely. >> Magnetometry. >> It, it, it and it's wonderful and it's fantastic in this case, magnetometry is so good at differentiating between mud brick and sand, which is what we're really dealing with here. >> Oh, cheating, cheating lucky you, of course, yeah, cause the density must be so, the makeup is so different. >> So the anomalies just pop out? >> They pop up, you get this beautiful map. But then you, that's wonderful right? You have a beautiful map of an area that's far greater than you could ever excavate practically. But you don't know what you're looking at. You still have to excavate in these cases. >> Ground-truthing. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, alright. >> And so, for instance we had a magnetic map of a dense urban area. We thought that it was late roman in date until we started excavating it. It turns out it was Ptolemaic and even earlier than Ptolemaic. So, so a difference of more than a hundred years, in some cases. >> Alright, so you can see it but the date, the what, you still have to dig. Okay. >> Absolutely. >> So, it's remote sense, surface survey, remote sensing, and then into it? >> And then excavation. >> Okay. >> And for us excavation is a really important tool. It's also a very intensive thing to undertake in Abydos. The areas again are very large. And because we're dealing with sand, sand has many particular problems. >> I was, yeah, digging in sand, so you're [SOUND]. Yes, no, I've never done it. >> It's, it's, it's a lot of fun, on one hand, it's very easy, right, sand is soft. You can move sand. >> Yeah. Yeah, you're not picking your way through mud or clay. >> No, so you're not endangering destroying things, for the most part, as you do at. But its also there is a lot of it. I mean the sand blows in. >> Uh-huh, uh-huh. >> And we are looking usually our excavation units are ten by ten meter squares. There can be a meter or two of sand on top of the architecture that we are looking for in some cases. >> So who's, so you're lugging it away phys. >> Physically. >> You can't have like a big vacuum? >> I wish we could. That'd be fantastic. Although we wouldn't then see the transitions between layers. We would also still looking for stratigraphy. >> Oh. >> Amongst the sand layers. >> Even in sand you can, even in sand sometimes you can. It can be very difficult. >> Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> And often times it's the artifacts in the sand that tell us when we've hit something different as opposed to the sand itself. >> So, even with windblown, even with sand you have to be careful. All right. >> Absolutely. You've got to be careful. >> So as you're going, tell me a bit more about the structure of the day. You get up at. >> We get up at about five thirty and the donkey cart comes to get all of our equipment at the house and take it out to the site. But we have a very large team and that's partly necessitated by the sand and by the need to excavate, so I often hire more than 100 people. >> Okay. Hundred, hundred local. >> A hundred, yes, a hundred local people, many of whom, so I have sort of tiers of workman as well. I have very highly trained specialists who work with me, some of whom are academically trained so my conservator for instance my ceramicist are local people. But then I also have trained overseer workmen and in every excavation, there will be a man from Quft (Qift), it's a city where in fact. >> Oh, the, I've heard of the Qufti, this is the Qufti. So a Qufti, it's it's these guys are worker's skilled individuals who come from a particular place, okay. [CROSSTALK] >> And the history of trained Qufties goes back more than a hundred years now. As archaeologists they frequently know more about excavating and how to deal with this, this sand and these mud bricks than I do. >> You see this in a lot of countries, you know, where there's local families or local villages where sort of trained excavators, you know, sort of emerge and it's, it become dynastic in some ways and it's probably the same way here too. >> Absolutely. But then I hire local people. This movement of sand is done mostly by guys with their hoes. It's an agricultural tool. You scoop the sand into a bucket with a hoe and then you go and sift the sand. We sift absolutely everything we remove. >> That's impressive. >> It's time consuming but again the recovery of artifacts is really what's going to tell us about the stratigraphy since its so hard to observe in the sand. So total recovery is very important. >> Do you see as you're, as you're, hoeing will things pop up or do you tend to find most things in the sieve? >> It depends on the size of things [CROSSTALK], and also even the color. You have faience which is blue, it's going to pop right up, you're going to see it. >> Differential visibility is, is blue things in sand, good, brown pot sherd in sand. >> Yeah. You might find that in the sieve instead, whole pot you're going to see. And ideally we like to see the artifacts in the ground, of course, because we like >> Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> To be able to locate them precisely on a plan using the surveying. >> Mm-hmm. >> but if we don't at least because we dig stratigraphically we can associate the artifact with the layer. [CROSSTALK] >> The layer and the area within your ten by, ten by ten. >> Absol(utely), you know, it starts with sand. It starts out as a ten by ten. >> Yeah. [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] And then by the time you grind down a meter, you're down to a five by five, because you get these sloping sides. There's no such thing as a baulk. >> And but do you ever hit floors or I mean or wh, walls. Floors, other feat, what you know, what's, what's the range of features you find when get, you know, can't all be sand. >> It's not, it's not all sand. And there is, it's not really bedrock when you get down to the bottom. But there is a hard compact level of sand and rock that, that is equivalent to bedrock. We call it gebel. >> Gebel? >> But. >> Is that sort of sterile is another term for it? >> Yes. >> Virgin soil it's like. So anything below that. >> Was put there. [CROSSTALK]. >> Ge, geology. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, okay. >> Yeah, exactly so there's no need to dig that. >> Okay. >> But very often we come down on the remains of cultural activity. So we'll have a unit, a 10 by 10 where the, you know, where you come down on top of a buried building, so it looks like your on the floor, but your really on the ceiling or the roof. And, it will, it will cover the entire square. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]