Professional Documents
Culture Documents
Tape 117
So you could argue that there is an archetype of the of the American scienfists Its know
you
know what the team or the network other words always been
is it that In its
develops
very solo individualisfic experience in the and now thats not the case But
past increasingly
uh can think of couple people who but not other than that The technical
might very many
systens that were building today in the computer industry are so complicated there
that are no
individuals who can understand all of them and scale uh cant even be
many large projects
groups of
people who may not ever meet face to face who not ever know one
may really
organic process building something collecUvely that none of them could have built
by
who is
very interested in
being engaged on something of great complexity
intellectually and
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in which you can grapple with very large complex technical systems and problems on
very
example you know the process of building modem dam or bridge would be of equal
possibly do it..
programmers uh have mindset typically where they like to they really
and solving very large scale problems and very large scale systems that are expressed
entirely of software So thats why you just see huge numbers of people now becoming
programmers because iEs an amazing ouUet for that combination of technical skill and
competence which people seek out for its own for its own value and also for the kind of
creativity that the software medium implicifly encourages Software is so much more malleable
than most other kinds of technical systems because theres nothing physical to it at all It can
be manipulated at will Uh and so it becomes sort of unique playing field for someone who
has the kind of mind to want to in there and do that with scale
go large system If
they could
do that in the real world with and with bridges and with and with dams and
buildings with you
know solar
power stations amongst other
things they probably would but that requires level
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Tape 117
system uh on mental basis that takes certain amount of time to get into And once you
want to maintain that for as long as you possibly can in addition to which many of the problems
you are then trying to solve are very complicated and take lot of time to work out themselves
Sure Yeah programmers who are very at what they do tend the
good to separate rest of the
wodd into those who are as good as they are at that and then
doing exactiy thing everyone
particular kind of
activity uhm and it becomes so much part of their lives that this is what they
value more than anything else And so the people that want with and
they to interact are able to
enjoyable for them are people who can do that also And it can certainly be frustrating uh then
whole
throughout series of fields and disciplines Uh but uh programming probably exhibits
The best
programming always happens by one or very small number of
person people as in
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Tape 117
two or three but more often just one concentrating on thing So there is
very solitary aspect
of the activity
Oh sure Yeah And there are large numbers of people who write code who are not the kinds
of
programmers that you and are talking about There are large numbers of people who you
know come into work and will work for certain of bme and will write certain number
period
of lines of code and then home and do other To them much more
go things it is it
may be
very enjoyable job but it is much more of job Its much more of its one of the things that
they do in their lives To the kind of people who obsessed over these
get completely things
and who typically do the real breakthrough work on an individual basis which think is
probably at the heart of what were talking about uh they are going to be much more this is
going to be much more the central aspect of their lives and everything else is to take
going
are breaking down Its certainly far different now than it was think ten twenty or thirty years
have you have across all of these different kinds of backgrounds you
have spectrum of
who
you know
will
go from there to the point where some of them do simply view
are going to
their life is more defined by outside acdvities Theres the What software
certainly spectrum
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companies find is that they need balance of those because ub the other thing that has turned
programmers who are capable of doing brilliant individualistic work uh are capable of.. well
theyre capable of doing that but theyre not necessarily alone to be able to then do all the
going
other things that are required to make something commercially successfi.jl Arid so iVs one of
the interesUng phenomenon think that you see at place like Netscape is
you see this
interest and uh and uh not passion but minded focus and commitment and
engagement single
that its the blending of those different levels that allows be born out of as
company to this
Well probably when we uh when we first when we first released Mosaic on the net in
and to see what they thought and then went from there 100 of fiends
it to their and then it went
of time matter of
of couple months That was the first indication we had that there was
something very very big going on that was going to be enormous It was the first sort of
going to
completely change how we thought about the net and therefor how we think about
we think about how we interact as society and in business And so uh that was probably
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Tape 117
sort of two or three month period thinking ok if this think is in size over week and
doubling
growing and growing and growing and growing ever since Its so fascinating to be in the
new uses for it and new ways to take advantage of it and thats just its
extremely exciting
capftalist system is
nothing more than social system for
organizing deployment of resources
dozens or hundreds of people or the kinds of marketing or promotional activities you need to
of
essentially doing something commercial Of funding it having investors who are willing to
something that no one would ever see One of the things thats about the net
very interesting at
this evolution
point of its
though and this ties back to the free source idea the source idea
open
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Tape 117
wrong with tape and cani hear speaker organizing large numbers of people to accomplish
sort of commercial there are no.. none of the standard economic incenlives
reality are there It
sehes of resources against some common goal given that socialism capitalism essendally
never reasonable before because for that to ever happen before would have all
reasonably it
had to have been in small geographic area Now it can happen on global basis and thats
what you see happening with these source efforts Arid these
open efforts are happening you
know totally outside of the normal financial or economic system They require no venture
capital They require no financial backing They require none of these sort of common things
that uh that people who are used to flow of capital and getting returns are used to And thaEs
why in the long run us going to be very see where goes because
to source
interesting open it
doesnt have to meet payroll How do you complete with something that doesnt need any
with that So
you know
compete ifs very interesting world because its .. we in the late 20th
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Tape 117
century now in the United States we live under the assumpfion that capitalism has won
completely for everything and is the universal But this this small but its..
system is is still
its outside it And its not operating according to the usual rules so its going to be fascinating to
watch
that was company built much more on idealism and much more on uh was
you know
it
it
the very beginning Arid it was only business sort of as side effect of that ThaVs sort of the
cultural
history of Apple Apple has evolved over the years such that it now has very very
effective uh organizational system and set of mechanisms in place for protecting its
commercial interests which is what we ran into So what we ran into was we ran
essentially
its intellectual
property from
anyone who might seek to take advantage of it And so what we
And so it was interesting working with the Apple folks and the and the
Apple lawyers Apple
the dear benefit of what we were doing for Apple among other things But uh you know they
basically had to say ok were not going to have its just single minded view on our
commercial interests in this case this case makes more sense trade
In it for us to that off of
you know of questionable value but of somewhat of value given this piece of intellectual
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Tape 117
property in order to allow this other to happen which is outside of sort of normal
thing any
commercial relationship And so it was uh it was interesng to see that because it sort of
resonated with uh this as you say this collision of perspectives that you see between raw
ideals on the one hand raw commercialism on the other hand and what happens is they really
collide
But at the same bme you know this is whars interesting to me about my job is that the
commercial wodd is the wofld in which sufficient resources can be marshaled to do big things
which is the same process Apple went through Apple started out as idealisc and then
very
they did for at least certain peæod of me Uh and Ive you know Ive been pushing
because that will allow us to accomplish that have to do with the financial
bigger things nothing
results but have everything to do with the impact we can have on the wod So they are both
cant get one done without the other Because the other this kind of
doing thing is in
industry or
or not it looks like they are going to be commercially successftil now you have to be
dght
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companies find is that they need balance of those because uh the other thing that has turned
out to be the case and this can at times the sort of master
certainly by highly frustrating
programmers who are capable of doing bhlliant individualistic work uh are capable of.. well
theyre capable of doing that but theyre not necessahly alone going to be able to then do all the
other things that are required to make something commercially successful And so irs one of
interest and engagement uh and uh not passion but single minded focus and commitment and
Well probably when we uh when we first when we first released Mosaic__S on the net in
and to see what they thought and then went from there 100 friends and then
it to of their it went
something very very big going on that was going to be enormous It was the first sort of
realization that there was going to be an entirely new world being created on the internet that
going to completely change how we thought about the net and therefor how we think about
computers and also how we think about ourselves how we think about communication how
we think about how we interact as society and in business And so uh that was probably
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growing and growing and growing and growing ever since Its so fascinating to be in the
new uses for it and new ways to take advantage of it and thats just its
extremely exciting
Historically its been the case much that there needed to be commercial imperative to
very
capitalist system is
nothing more than social system for organizing of resources
deployment
of
essentially doing something commercial Of funding it having investors who are willing to
risk allow
capital to you to marshal the resources to allow to then get some sort of ultimate
you
something that no one would ever see One of the things thats very interesling about the net at
this of its evolution and this ties back the free idea the
point though to source open source idea
open source efforts work on the net what they are is are separate uh..
they parallel something
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Tape 117 14
with tape and cant hear speaker organizing large numbers of people to accomplish
wrong
sort of commercial there are no.. none of the standard economic incentives are there
reality It
failed This isnt that this certainly also isnt capitalism What it
is is its because of the new
never reasonable before because for that to ever happen before would have all
reasonably it
had to have been in small geographic area Now it can happen on global basis and thats
what you see happening with these source efforts And these efforts
open are happening you
know totally outside of the normal financial or economic system They require no venture
that uh that people who are used to flow of capital and getting returns are used to And thats
impossible to compete with source efforts the sense that commercial companies
open in
are
doesnt have to meet payroll How do you complete with something that doesnt need any
its not dear how companies normal commercial organizations are actually going to be able to
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Tape 117
century now in the United States we live under the assumption that capitalism has won
completely for everything and is the universal But this is this small but its..
system is still
ifs outside it And its not operating accortling to the usual rules so ifs going to be fascinating to
watch
Right Well theres deep irony to it because the whole idea around Apple was
right originally
that it was company built much more on idealism and much more on uh you know it was
the very beginning And it was only business sort of as side effect of that Thats sort of the
effective uh organizational system and set of mechanisms in place for protecting its
commercial interests which is what we ran into So what we ran into was we ran
essentially
its intellectual property from anyone who might seek to take advantage of it And so what we
And so it was interesting working with the Apple folks and the and the
Apple lawyers Apple
commercial interests this case this case makes more sense trade
in In it for us to that off of
you know of quesUonable value but of somewhat of value given this piece of intellectual
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Tape 117
property in order to allow this other to happen which outside of sort of normal
thing is
any
ideals on the one hand raw commercialism on the other hand and what happens is
they really
collide
But at the same time you know this is whats interesfing to me about my job is that the
commercial wodd is the wod in which sufficient resources can be marshaled to do big things
they did for at least certain peæod of Ume Uh and Ive you know Ive been pushing
results but have to do with the impact we can have on the wodd So
everything they are both
cant get one done without the other Because the other this kind of
doing thing is in
industry or
in these kind of markets you cant operate like this on the basis of raw
company just
or not it looks like they are going to be commercially successful now you have to be
right
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Tape 117
what are the idealistic opportunities and how can we push in that directions before
things it
Womans voice says he has to go they discuss doing couple more questions and check the time
No think there is
very fundamental change thats which that new
happening is
communications technologies that make it easier and faster to communicate have real impact
on our lives and we saw that with the anival of television and the telephone and so on It
fundamentally changed the kinds of things we do when we do things over what time frame we
do things The idea that you can call someone on the phone instanfly instead of send them
letter which takes five or six or ten or twenty days to get there or longer as did at one point uh
causes big change and you could argue that these increases in communication are
in terms of communications efficiency And basically the net and all of these associated
technologies including cellular phones and pagers and all of these are leading us
technologies
into wodd where communication faster and easier than ever and therefore
happens before
company internet
company or not are expected to be in contact more often are expected to
home are expected to work more hours in the day Thats one of the interesting things thars
happened Technology the arrival of technology over the last several decades has actually
led to less leisure time not more leisure time which is ironic This is
deeply thing something
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think that we are going to have to watch and work with quite carefully because it
appears right
now that
technology my belief is that technology and the internet are not actually improving
productivity Rather they are making it possible for us to work more and therefore we can
accomplish more in total But were not right now accomplishing more per unit of time work
which is the measure of productivity and so as result we find our work lives and
expanding
the masters of the technology so we to be able to draw lines the sand against and
ought in that
that think thats something we probably have to pay lot more attention to And on the flip
side those of us who help design the technology have to about think uh how to make
worry
it easier and more useful for to take of and have not be something
people advantage it that
opposed to what can do for its own sake and then afterwards what effect does
technology it
have on us
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Tape 117
what are the idealistic opportunities and how can we push things in that directions before it
Womans voice says he has to go they discuss doing couple more questions and check the time
No think there is
very fundamental change thats happening which is that new
on our lives and we saw that with the arrival of television and the telephone and so on It
causes big change and you could that these increases communication are
argue in
responsible for all economic advancement through time This is another quantum leap forward
into world where communication faster and easier than ever and therefore
happens before
company internet
company or not are expected to be in contact more often are expected to
home are expected to work more hours in the day Thafs one of the interesting things thats
happened Technology the arrival of technology over the last several decades has actually
Page 10
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Tape 117
think that we are going to have to watch and work with quite because it
carefully appears right
now that technology. my belief is that technology and the Internet are not actually improving
productivity Rather they are making it possible for us to work more and therefore we can
accomplish more in total But were not right now accomplishing more per unit of bme work
which is the measure of and so as result we find our work lives and
productivity expanding
the masters of the technology so we ought to be able to draw lines in the sand against that and
side those of us who help design the have to about think uh how to make
technology worry
it easier and more useful for people to take of and have not be something that
advantage it
notorious for not being able to think that but thats not not evolution
way think that natural
That this industry should be forced to try to think of how can technology really help us as
opposed to what can technology do for its own sake and then afterwards what effect does it
have on us
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So you could
argue that there is an archetype of the of the American scientists Its know
you
Alexander Graham Bell or Thomas Edison but them hasnt been an archetype yet for dont
know what is it the team or the network that develops In other words its always been
very solo individualistic experience in the past and now increasingly thats not the case But
dont think
technologist in the worid there may be one or two but theres not very many who
can actually understand different component of all its software and how functions And
every it
uh can think of couple people who might but not very many other than that The technical
systems that were building today in the computer industry are so complicated that there are no
individuals who can understand all of them and many large scale projects uh can even be
groups of people who may not ever meet face to face who may not ever really know one
organic process building something collechvely that none of them could have built
by
who is
very interested in being on something of great complexity and
engaged intellectually
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Tape 117
example you know the process of building modem dam or bridge would be of equal
possibly do it..
programmers uh have mindset where like to
typically they they really
programmers because its an amazing outlet for that combination of technical skill aid
competence which people seek out for its own for its own value and also for the kind of
creativity that the software medium implicifly encourages Software is so much more malleable
than most other kinds of technical systems because theres nothing physical to it at all It can
be manipulated at will Uh and so it becomes sort of unique playing field for someone who
has the kind of mind to want to in there and do that with scale
go large system If
they could
do that in the real world with and with and with and with dams and
buildings bhdges with you
know solar
power stations amongst other things they probably would but that requires level
Page
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Tape 117
unusual hours its because need to reach state into work session need to
they going they
reach the state which takes few hours of the zone will Its almost
typically getting in if
you
uh you know sort of like you talk about athletes getting in the zone for performance
system uh on mental basis that takes certain amount of time to get into And once you
have that in head thats when you can then on and done Arid so you
your operate it
get things
you are then trying to solve are very complicated and take lot of time to work out themselves
Sure Yeah programmers who are very good at what they do tend to the rest of the
separate
wodd into those who are as good as they are at that and then
doing exactly thing everyone
as that person is there are only hnite number of people in the wood who are that at that
good
particular task And what all those people have in common is that this
theyre vety engaged in
particular kind of activity uhm and it becomes so much part of their lives that this is what they
value more than anything else And so the people that want to interact with and able to
they are
have uh are able to.. are able to deal with on an ongoing basis in that is
really way
enjoyable for them are people who can do also And can be
that it
certainly frustrating uh then
it more than some other areas only because its probably somewhat of more solitary activity
The best
programming always happens one small number of
by person or very people as in
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Tape 117
two or three but more often just one concentrating on thing So there is
very solitary aspect
of the acvity
Oh sure Yeah And there are large numbers of people who write code who are not the kinds
you and
of programmers that are about There are large numbers of who
talking people you
know come into work and will work for certain period of time and will write certain number
go home and
of lines of code and then do other things To them much more
it is ft
may be
very enjoyable job but it is much more of job Its much more of ifs one of the things that
they do in their lives To the kind of people who obsessed over these
get completely things
and who typically do the real breakthrough work on an individual basis which think is
probably at the heart of what were talking about uh they are going to be much more this is
going to be much more the central aspect of their lives and everything else is to take
going
have you have across all of these different kinds of backgrounds you
have spectrum of
almost obsession or complete focus on the one hand and then you have spectrum of people
their life is more defined by outside activities Theres the What software
certainly spectrum
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