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CITY OF JERSEY CITY

ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT
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IN THE MATTER OF:
TRANSCRIPT
Case No. Z18-095
2 HOBOKEN AVENUE, LLC OF
2 Hoboken Avenue
Block 8001, Lot 46 PROCEEDINGS
Preliminary and Final
Major Site Plan
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Thursday, November 1, 2018
Jersey City, New Jersey
Commencing at 6:56 p.m.
BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:
KATE DONNELLY, Acting Chairwoman
AHMED SHEDEED
LUZ MERCEDES GUZMAN
CHESTER M. ROTHMAN
MATTHEW VILARDO

A P P E A R A N C E S

VINCENT LaPAGLIA, ESQUIRE

GENEVIEVE LaPAGLIA, ESQUIRE
Attorneys for the Board
CONNELL FOLEY, LLP
BY: ROBERT VERDIBELLO, ESQUIRE
Attorneys for the Applicant

PRECISION REPORTING SERVICE

405 Third Street
Jersey City, New Jersey 07302
(908) 642-4299

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1 ALSO PRESENT: 1 AUDIENCE MEMBERS SWORN:
2 TANYA MARIONE, Director 2 KERN WEISSMAN.......................Page 113
City Planning Division 3 ANTHONY SOARES......................Page 118
3 4 SHANNON PENNOCK.....................Page 120
4 5 MARY MILLS..........................Page 123
5 6 MICHAEL DEFUSCO.....................Page 125
6 7 DR. LAURA BRAYTON...................Page 128
7 8 JENNIFER ARANEO.....................Page 129
8 9 BRIAN RANS..........................Page 130
9 10 MAMTA SINGH.........................Page 134
10 11 JONATHAN BLOODGOOD..................Page 134
11 12 DANIELLE BEAM.......................Page 136
12 13 JOHN GREGORIO.......................Page 139
13 14
14 15
15 16
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17
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18
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21
21
22 22 *NOTE: City Planner Tanya Marione was duly sworn at the
23 23 beginning of the meeting (see Agenda Items Transcript
24 24 for this date)
25 25

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1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 1 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. So
2 2 that brings us to the one remaining case on the
3 WITNESS: 3 agenda, Case Z18-095. The applicant is 2 Hoboken
4 RALPH WALKER Page 9 4 Avenue, LLC, being represented by Mr. Verdibello.
5 ERIC BALLOU Page 33 5 MR. VERDIBELLO: Good evening, Madame
6 DANIEL DiSARIO Page 42 6 Chairman, members of the Board. We are set up and
7 LANCE HOWARD Page 48 7 so we are ready to go.
8 EDWARD KOLLING Page 51 8 Again, good evening, Robert Verdibello
9 9 from Connell Foley on behalf of the applicant, 2
10 10 Hoboken Avenue, LLC.
11 11 This is a property identified as 2
12 EXHIBITS 12 Hoboken Avenue, which is on the border of Hoboken
13 A-1 Notices Page 6 13 and Jersey City. We're applying for use, height,
14 A-2 Rendering Page 19 14 and density variances, along with curb cut width
15 A-3 Rendering Page 19 15 and valet parking. This is a notice case, so I'll
16 A-4 Rendering Page 19 16 let staff do what they have to do as far as
17 A-5 Rendering Page 19 17 marking into evidence the proof of service.
18 A-6 Satellite Photo Page 27 18 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: And,
19 A-7 Rendering Page 27 19 Mr. Verdibello, before we proceed, this is quite a
20 A-8 Rendering Page 34 20 plan and it includes a "D" variance for use. We
21 21 only have five Board members --
22 22 MR. VERDIBELLO: Yes.
23 23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: --
24 24 available tonight. An option would be to proceed
25 25 to get all of the appropriate testimony and

2 (Pages 2 to 5)

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1 comments on the record and have a vote at a later
2 date, or we could just postpone everything.
3 MR. VERDIBELLO: Yes, we'd like to put
4 the testimony on the record and then have a vote
5 once we have a full complement of Board members.
6 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. So
7 six or seven is better than five.
8 MR. VERDIBELLO: Correct.
9 MR. LaPAGLIA: So, Bridget, before they
10 proceed, we do have this affidavit of proof of
11 service and the notice of publication. I'll walk
12 that down to you and we'll mark it as A-1.
13 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and
14 marked Exhibit A-1 into evidence.)
15 MR. VERDIBELLO: Okay, thank you.
16 Okay. So, again, good evening, Madame
17 Chair, members of the Board. This is regarding 2
18 Hoboken Avenue, which is designated on the tax map 18
19 of the City of Jersey City as Block 6001, Lot 46. 19
20 As I was saying earlier, this is
21 literally a unique parcel. I know a lot of
22 applicants and attorneys will stand up here and
23 explain how unique their project is, but this
24 truly is a unique project. It stands by itself on 24
25 the border of Jersey City and Hoboken. It is a
1 Jersey City property. It is right on the border.
2 It is an odd-shaped parcel and yet a
3 large parcel. It is a 28,000-square-foot parcel.
4 It's also interesting in the fact that it's zoned
5 R-3, which allows for mid-rise apartment buildings
6 as of right.
7 Technically what you'll hear this
8 evening is our application is for nine stories of
9 residential floors on top of a four-story podium.
10 So it's a 13-story building, which classifies it
11 technically as a high rise, but I'll call it high
12 rise light.
13 Aside from that, you'll hear from our
14 experts here this evening about how we've taken
15 great care to try to design this building to bear
16 in mind view corridors from the Jersey City
17 Heights.
18 Another unique feature of this property
19 is that while the property is technically located
20 in the Palisades Preservation Overlay District,
21 this property is greater than 450 feet from the
22 base of the Palisades. As a result, there are no
23 height restrictions from the PPOD that apply to
24 this particular site, which is, again, what makes
25 it very unique in terms of what it is.
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1 As a result, we're also asking for a
2 height variance in order to accommodate the unit
3 counts and the podium. You'll hear from our
4 experts, particularly our architect, as to the
5 necessity for that height variance.
6 We're also, as part of this project,
7 because there's currently no Jersey City
8 infrastructure that necessarily reaches the site,
9 as part of this project, we will be installing new
10 infrastructure connecting with Jersey City
11 municipal utilities. We've already met with the
12 Jersey City Municipal Utilities Authority to start
13 working out the logistics of how the connections
14 will work.
15 We know in that area of the city where
16 right now all you have are Hoboken's utilities,
17 that that will be a dramatic improvement
potentially to that site. That's also a great
advantage for Jersey City moving forward.
20 Without further ado, I'll start turning
21 it over to the experts that we have here this
22 evening. For the record, we have Ralph Walker,
23 who's our project architect; Eric Ballou of InSite
Engineering, who is our project engineer; Dan
25 DiSario of Langan Engineering, who will testify as
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1 to traffic; and Ed Kolling is our professional
2 planner.
3 So if there are no questions regarding
4 the site or the orientation, I'll bring up my
5 first witness.
6 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Yes, you
7 can proceed, Mr. Verdibello.
8 MR. VERDIBELLO: Okay. Thank you.
9 I'll call up Ralph Walker.
10 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: And could
11 you briefly qualify him as an expert?
12 MR. VERDIBELLO: Oh, yes, absolutely.
13 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Just
14 briefly.
15 RALPH JONATHAN
16 W A L K E R, having been duly sworn, was examined
17 and testified as follows:
18 DIRECT-EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. VERDIBELLO:
20 Q. Mr. Walker, if you could just state for
21 the Board briefly your qualifications and
22 experience and whether you've testified before any
23 land use boards in the State of New Jersey?
24 A. Sure. Again, my name is Ralph Walker.
25 I'm the senior project manager with RSC Architects
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1 in Hackensack, New Jersey. I'm a licensed 1 across the property in this manner. And then
2 architect in the State of New Jersey, California, 2 looping underneath it is the Light Rail. So we're
3 and Pennsylvania. I've been practicing 3 actually bounded by two railroad lines along the
4 architecture since 1997, when I graduated from 4 property.
5 Syracuse University. I've testified in front of 5 This property is co-joined with the
6 more than 40 different municipalities in the area. 6 Hoboken Business Center and is currently a parking
7 I'm happy to speak to you about any further 7 lot that is in use by the Hoboken Business Center
8 qualifications. 8 as part of that. So just for orientation sake.
9 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: We accept 9 Actually, one other note while we're on
10 your qualifications. 10 this page. You'll notice there's a dimension line
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 11 on this page showing that we're 545 feet to the
12 Appreciate it. 12 bottom of the Palisades. Just to highlight the
13 MR. VERDIBELLO: Thank you. 13 point that Robert was making earlier, we are
14 BY MR. VERDIBELLO: 14 beyond the overlay zone and we took great care to
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Walker. If you could, 15 verify that for you.
16 please state for the record and for the 16 In terms of our proposal, I'm going to
17 edification of the Board the proposal that we're 17 direct you to Drawing A-100. First, just again as
18 moving forward with this evening. 18 an orientation to the building, this is a set of
19 A. Sure. I'm going to use some visuals, so 19 diagrams which is basically explaining the uses
20 as we go through this, we'll mark them in as 20 and the massing of the building and then we'll
21 exhibits. 21 speak more about the specifics as we go forward.
22 Do you need me to speak into the mic as 22 Again, it's a 13-story building
23 I go or can you hear me okay? 23 consisting of a ground floor, which has a series
24 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: It's best 24 of uses, including a lobby, some commercial space
25 if you do speak into the mic. That way the public 25 services, and access to parking deck. We have a

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1 has a better chance of hearing you. 1 three-story parking deck above that, which those
2 THE WITNESS: So let me move this over 2 four stories create what we call the podium, which
3 here. I'm going to direct this towards you so you 3 is within 50 feet of height and is in consistency
4 can see what I'm using. 4 with some of the adjacent buildings, which I'll
5 So I have in front of me a full-size 5 talk further about in a moment. And then above
6 version of the same plans that you've previously 6 that, we have our nine stories of residential
7 received. I'll be referencing them as we go 7 units.
8 forward. 8 In terms of the ground floor -- sorry to
9 I'm going to start with a reference to 9 make you flip. So, again, if we reference A-201.
10 the second sheet, which is A-001. Just for 10 So on A-201, on the top plan here, this is the
11 orientation sake, this is a location plan showing 11 ground floor plan. On the ground floor, we have
12 the property. The yellow is showing the 200-foot 12 our frontage along Harrison Street, which includes
13 radius for notification purposes. 13 a new curb cut into a two-lane drive which is part
14 So just for orientation sake, the 14 of the building.
15 property is located with frontage on Harrison 15 It should be noted that the property is
16 Street. There's a small section of frontage along 16 within a floodplain and so one of the key issues
17 Harrison Street and then it is a tapering property 17 for us is that we're trying to elevate out of the
18 with an arc or a curve as it moves back towards 18 floodplain as quickly as possible. So we have a
19 the Palisades. 19 residential lobby that is on grade and a queuing
20 On one border, we have the municipal 20 zone for our loading, which is also on grade.
21 boundary line between Jersey City and Hoboken. On 21 From a parking perspective, we then come
22 the opposite border, we are up against the New 22 up a ramp, up into a loading zone towards the rear
23 Jersey Transit property. And the New Jersey 23 of the property, where we have a series of car
24 Transit property is interesting onto itself. We 24 loads. I'll speak more about that in a moment.
25 have the elevated heavy rail, which is cutting 25 On the residential lobby side, we come

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1 into the building and then, again, quickly elevate
2 up into our elevator and stair system, along with
3 a manager's office. And then we have a retail and
4 restaurant or commercial space that is behind
5 that.
6 One of the key notable items about this
7 property is because of its frontage to the
8 adjacent New Jersey Transit properties, there's an
9 existing pedestrian walkway that basically skirts
10 along the curved edge of the property. And our
11 proposal includes making improvements to that edge
12 and literally connecting the building to it.
13 Because of the limited frontage, we're
14 looking at using the frontage of the pedestrian
15 walkway and really activating that space. So
16 trying to create a destination-type space at the
17 ground level that is engaging along with what's
18 happening on the New Jersey Transit property here.
19 MR. VERDIBELLO: If I could just
20 interject for one moment.
21 THE WITNESS: Please.
22 MR. VERDIBELLO: We have had preliminary
23 discussions on behalf of the applicant with New
24 Jersey Transit. So we're setting up meetings with
25 them in the short term to discuss improvements
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1 As we move up through the building, we
2 have three levels of parking. The parking is all
3 intended to be valet parking since we're using a
4 lift system. And currently we are showing 49
5 spaces per level, which gives us a total of 147
6 cars in the parking levels. That is based on the
7 striping layout. That's not necessarily based on
8 the efficiency of the valet. Again, he's here
9 to -- one of our experts is here to testify about
10 that specific issue.
11 We've also planned for electric car
12 charging stations, as well as bike storage for the
13 residents and then some other secondary amenities
14 as we go forward.
15 As we move up and into the building, the
16 residential levels are designed with 18 apartment
17 units per floor. I'm now referencing A-202 for
18 the record. A typical apartment level includes
19 four studio apartments, 11 one-bedroom apartments,
20 and three two-bedroom apartments. That does vary
21 on Level 5, where we have an amenity space.
22 And, again, one of the things to note is
23 because of the geometry of this plan, there is a
24 variation in unit sizes and we were working very
25 hard to try and create efficiencies within the

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1 that New Jersey Transit will allow us to make to 1 footprint that's available. But it is an odd
2 the existing walkway to enhance it for the 2 geometry that we're working with between the curve
3 pedestrian experience. 3 and the very slender property.
4 That's part of what you'll hear this 4 BY MR. VERDIBELLO:
5 evening, is a large part of this proposal is to 5 Q. Mr. Walker, if you could just state for
6 take what is basically a pedestrian-unfriendly or 6 the record, what's the total number of units that
7 underutilized area in terms of the walkway and 7 are being proposed?
8 make it more pedestrian friendly and better 8 A. So we have a total of 161 apartment
9 utilized. 9 units, which consist, again, of 36 studios, 99
10 THE WITNESS: Continuing along the site, 10 one-bedrooms, and 26 two-bedrooms.
11 again, we have this elevated porch, so we're 11 Q. And do you have the comparison as to
12 elevated up above the floodplain here. And then 12 what would be permitted as of right in an R-3
13 across the rear of the site, we do have a 13 zone?
14 bike-sharing zone where this will be an area where 14 A. I do. Let me pull that up for you in
15 people can rent bikes and use them along the 15 just a moment.
16 existing pedestrian path, as well as our car lifts 16 Q. Sure.
17 and then utility spaces and a trash zone. 17 A. So let me keep going and I'll come back
18 We've designed our loading zone to allow 18 to that.
19 for small trucks to come in and turn around and 19 Q. We'll come back to that. You can
20 make the necessary improvements to get in and out 20 continue.
21 of the site. We've also designed our queuing zone 21 A. Okay. So continuing up through the
22 in a manner where someone could come in and unload 22 building, again, as we rise up through the
23 at the lower level from a move-in/move-out 23 building, when we get to the roof level, the roof
24 perspective. And, again, we'll speak to that more 24 level is designed with some rooftop amenity space,
25 with some of the other experts tonight. 25 but the majority of the roof is designed as a

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1 green roof. We are using that for some stormwater
2 mitigation, which, again, our engineer will speak
3 to. And then we do have a mechanical penthouse on
4 the roof overall.
5 I'm going to finish flipping through
6 these to move on to a few renderings of the
7 property. But just in terms of the building
8 elevations, again, the design intent is that we
9 have this podium level, which consists of the
10 ground level entry and some of the amenity spaces
11 we've spoken about, as well as the parking. And
12 then we rise up to a nine-story residential tower
13 above that.
14 In terms of the materiality of this, we
15 are looking at using masonry and glass -- I have
16 some samples here which I can share with you in
17 just a moment -- as well as a full curtain wall
18 system behind.
19 And let me turn to the renderings for a
20 second to give you a better sense of it. These
21 are new exhibits. I'll be happy to pass them
22 forward as we go.
23 Q. We should mark those if we're going to
24 pass it to the Board. Can we mark this A-2?
25 A. There's four of them there. Do you want
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1 to mark A-2 through A-6?
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. No, no, they're on the same...
4 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and
5 marked Exhibit A-2 into evidence.)
6 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and
7 marked Exhibit A-3 into evidence.)
8 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and
9 marked Exhibit A-4 into evidence.)
10 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and
11 marked Exhibit A-5 into evidence.)
12 A. All right. So the renderings that I'm
13 going to show you are basically updates to some of
14 the renderings that you currently have in your
15 set. This first view is a view looking at the
16 main entry of the building. So this would be
17 looking from across the street at the residential
18 entry on the corner. And you can see the
19 four-story pedestal element and then the tower
20 rising above it.
21 We have a photo reel rendering next to a
22 hand rendering. The hand rendering was included
23 in your set originally. This is also next to the
24 existing conditions photograph taken from the same
25 point of view.
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1 Again, the intent here is that we're
2 trying to create a scaled element that is similar
3 to the buildings that are adjacent. If you
4 continue down Harrison Street, you'll notice that
5 there are a number of four- and five-story
6 buildings, primarily of masonry construction, and
7 this is really consistent with the street frontage
8 and the pedestrian experience that's in the area.
9 The other thing to note -- and I'll talk
10 more about this in a second. The other thing to
11 note is that we are very close to the elevated
12 rail line. And one of the key issues for us is
13 that because of the adjacency to the New Jersey
14 Transit rail line and because of the fact that
15 it's elevated, we didn't find it appropriate to
16 put residential units on lower levels where they
17 were going to get sound and light adjacency -- you
18 know, direct impact of sound and light into
19 individual apartment units, which is part of the
20 reason why we raised up the parking.
21 The other reason that we've raised the
22 parking up here is that beyond the floodplain, we
23 also are dealing with some soils issues here.
24 This building will be built on piles. We have
25 soft soils we're dealing with. We're looking at
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1 60 to 80 feet depth in terms of pile support for a
2 structure of this type. So it's unreasonable to
3 look at digging down into the site. So that's a
4 major reason why we looked at this overall.
5 As I flip forward, again, this is the
6 view now looking from Harrison Street. This is
7 the adjacent view, which is, again, a head-on view
8 showing the entry into the parking area, as well
9 as some of the adjacency. You can see the level
10 of foliage that have in the area on the New Jersey
11 Transit side of the property. We intend to
12 continue that, we'll speak to that in terms of the
13 landscaping plan in just a few minutes.
14 But we also intend to create a natural
15 pedestrian walk along Harrison Street to get you
16 there. Let me reference you back to the plan.
17 Our civil engineer will speak to this in
18 detail, but I just want to reference you to the
19 plan, the site plan and C-30. We do have a
20 sidewalk connection that gets you now from
21 Harrison Street into the patio and then connecting
22 into the walkway overall, which is an important
23 part of what we're trying to do in terms of
24 improving this.
25 I don't know if any of you have walked
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1 the pedestrian walkway, but it takes you under the
2 trestle and it's kind of a dark and not very nice
3 experience until you get out to daylight.
4 So we felt it was important to create
5 more of a connection along the building's edge so
6 that we could have something with proper lighting
7 and also just improve it overall.
8 Referencing back to the renderings
9 again, the third rendering here is the view from
10 Marshall Street. Marshall Street is a paper
11 street in Hoboken and this is looking at the rear
12 of the building. Again, you can see the shape and
13 the height. One of the things that's interesting
14 about this property is because it does taper, it
15 is a very narrow facade on different points. You
16 can see how much it's tapered in these different
17 directions.
18 MR. WEISSMAN: Is there any way to
19 position this so that --
20 THE WITNESS: After I present, I'll be
21 happy to show it to you.
22 MR. WEISSMAN: Because we can't see it.
23 THE WITNESS: Understood.
24 A. And then, finally, this is a view from
25 the park, which, again, is just an update to the
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1 it also to the members of the public. Since I'm
2 over here, we'll start here. Or we'll start with
3 you.
4 MS. MARIONE: I got it. I got it.
5 THE WITNESS: Feel free to flip.
6 There's four of them there, so...
7 Should I continue? Or I can hold for a
8 minute.
9 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Please go
10 ahead.
11 A. Okay. In terms of the materials, a
12 couple things to note. So we have been looking
13 very carefully at this building in terms of
14 materials that are appropriate both in terms of
15 contextual elements, but also in terms of energy
16 efficiency and really looking for something that's
17 going to be a handsome building long term. We
18 understand that this is something that our client
19 is making a major investment in.
20 So the materials that I'm going to pass
21 around, I have a small sample of these. I do have
22 some larger samples as well. But the small
23 samples of these, what you're going to see is the
24 type of glass that we intend to use in terms of a
25 vision glass. We are using a low E insulated

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1 elevation that you've previously seen. Now, this 1 glass system that has a high level of
2 is a little bit of a farce because we had to take 2 reflectivity. It does have a little bit of a blue
3 away the rail trestle in order to see this view. 3 tint to it. The intent there is, again, to tie it
4 So just to be clear about this, it's a little bit 4 in with the sky and reflections of the sky as much
5 farther away than you could actually achieve as a 5 as possible.
6 pedestrian, but this is to give you a sense of the 6 You will see a series of metals. These
7 real scale of it. 7 metals that are on the boards are samples of the
8 What's happening with this building is, 8 metal finishes that we're using to achieve the
9 you know, you have this podium level, which is 9 kind of racing stripes that you see as we're kind
10 made up of a series of masonry materials, which 10 of wrapping around the building. You'll notice
11 I'll show you in a second, and then a glass facade 11 there are those white lines that are wrapping
12 above. And really the intent here is to create 12 around on the upper levels.
13 something that's dynamic using -- you know, on a 13 In addition, you will see a silver metal
14 curve like this, we're trying to create something 14 or a gray metal, which is, again, a more
15 that is both appropriate to the pedestrian on the 15 reflective metal. And then we also have included
16 street level, but is also dynamic as you move 16 some of the stone samples for the base levels, as
17 around it based on the geometries of the site. 17 well as some of the paver samples. So you'll see
18 Let me speak for just a minute about the 18 all of these in the sushi box.
19 materials that we're using. 19 I'm going to pass this. We bought our
20 How do you want to do this? 20 bento box. So hope you're not hungry.
21 Q. We can pass that out. 21 This other sample I have here is a
22 A. That's fine. 22 little heavy, so please be careful because it's a
23 MR. VERDIBELLO: What we'll do, just for 23 bit of a heavy sample. This is a sample that is
24 the record, is we'll pass first the marked 24 intended to show how we intend to treat any of our
25 exhibits to the Board members and then we can pass 25 louver systems.

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 Page 26 Page 28
1 So we actually have two areas of louvers 1 month or so. Some of these were provided by
2 in the building: One is on the apartment levels, 2 neighbors to us, some of these we took ourselves.
3 which is in the spandrel, and then a second in the 3 In all cases, what we're trying to do is
4 parking areas. And our intent is to wrap them 4 show what the existing condition is on the
5 with a perforated metal similar to this. This is 5 property. So as I noted earlier on, it's
6 not the final finish that we would be using, but 6 currently a parking lot. We are up against --
7 this is the type of product that we would be using 7 this is the Hoboken Business Center that's
8 in order to achieve that. 8 currently on the north side of the property. We
9 What you'll see in the sample is this is 9 have our large kind of arced triangular parking
10 a mechanical louver system which is finished with, 10 lot and then this oddly-shaped area that's
11 again, a perforated metal. It can come in a 11 overgrown foliage adjacent to New Jersey Transit.
12 bazillion different colors. Our intent was to 12 What you'll notice as you look at each
13 match the renderings to the extent possible. 13 of those images is that the property from a
14 We're not just punching our curtain wall with PTAC 14 pedestrian level is really -- there isn't a whole
15 units. We're really trying to create this banding 15 lot of notable buildings nearby. There's not a
16 effect that wraps around the building. That's 16 lot to see nearby. But when you get up into the
17 really an upgrade from what you see in traditional 17 Palisades and you look down on the property, there
18 residential apartment buildings in the area, so as 18 is the skyline in the background and there are a
19 an example. 19 number of adjacent views.
20 Again, this is heavy, so please be 20 So we were careful about thinking about
21 careful. I just don't want you to be surprised by 21 how to design this building in a way that's really
22 it. 22 not going to have a major impact on our neighbors,
23 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I can just carry 23 but also is going to be appropriate for the use
24 it around. 24 that we're dealing with here.
25 THE WITNESS: There you go. 25 So as a reminder, we were trying not to

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1 We left you with a placemat on the bento 1 put residents up against the railroad tracks for
2 box, so don't worry if they get out of place. We 2 obvious reasons, and we were also trying to be
3 can put them back together however you need. 3 appropriate to the pedestrian experience. And
4 BY MR. VERDIBELLO: 4 then, in addition to that, we were being careful
5 Q. You can continue. 5 about what are the views from the Palisades.
6 A. I just want to give them a chance to -- 6 So the second image here is a blowup and
7 Q. Let me take that. 7 this was one that we were lucky enough to have
8 A. You got that? Okay. 8 provided by one of the residents who lives in the
9 All right. Next, I just want to take a 9 Palisades. And this is from his rear yard and you
10 minute to talk about the view corridors related to 10 can see the SkyClub in the foreground and some of
11 the building and the property and the impact that 11 the skyline beyond it.
12 the building is going to have on the view 12 And you'll see on the bottom of this
13 corridors overall. 13 image, this is the existing photograph today and
14 I need to submit this for evidence as 14 then we laid in our property, our proposal, in the
15 well. So this is -- 15 photograph above.
16 Q. I believe that will be A-6. 16 And one of the things to note is that
17 A. So this will be A-6 and A-7. 17 it's pretty minor in terms of the overall view,
18 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and 18 but I'll pass this around so you can take a look
19 marked Exhibit A-6 into evidence.) 19 at what the impact is.
20 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and 20 MR. VERDIBELLO: So with the image, just
21 marked Exhibit A-7 into evidence.) 21 as a reminder, the bottom view is the current
22 A. So A-6, for everyone's sake, consists of 22 view; the top image is the proposed view with the
23 a satellite photograph in the center for 23 proposed building.
24 orientation sake and then a series of photographs 24 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: And just
25 that we have taken or collected over the last 25 point to the proposed building.

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 Page 30 Page 32
1 MR. VERDIBELLO: Right there. 1 And what you will see on this, on A-6,
2 THE WITNESS: I know, it's hard to see 2 is, again -- so our ground floor elevation -- our
3 in this, right? 3 ground floor elevation is at plus 4.7. That's our
4 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Actually, 4 00 elevation. And then we go up to an elevation
5 you can see it just fine. I just wanted to make 5 of 11 feet or 6 foot 5 to get up above the
6 sure what we were looking at. 6 floodplain. And then as we rise up through the
7 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I should get 7 building, our top-of-roof elevation is 151 feet 2
8 extra pay. 8 inches, to give you a sense of that.
9 THE WITNESS: Did the renderings come 9 But our first residential level is at 50
10 back around? 10 foot 2. And the top of a New Jersey Transit
11 MR. VERDIBELLO: They're on the table. 11 standard train is at 32 foot 8. So, again, when
12 I find that it's also helpful to 12 we were looking at this, we were trying to be
13 reference back to the renderings if you want to 13 careful about the directionality both about the
14 look at those side-by-side. The renderings use 14 acoustic and the light impact on the residences.
15 some of the same photographs from the image before 15 Q. And, again, I know the images in many
16 if that's helpful to you at all. 16 ways speak for themselves, but the building is, in
17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: So this was 17 fact, curved, is that correct?
18 taken kind of over by the crazy house with the 18 A. Correct. Again, the building,
19 tennis court? 19 referencing you back -- referencing back to A-201,
20 MR. VERDIBELLO: We didn't take the 20 the property, again, starts out on almost a
21 photo. This was supplied to us from the Riverview 21 45-degree angle in terms of frontage and then
22 Neighborhood Association. 22 moves back at an angle on one side on the
23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. All 23 municipal boundary line and then on a shallow
24 right. But I think that's what it is because it's 24 curve as it comes across the other direction.
25 at that -- 25 So there are no -- we have no regularity

Page 31 Page 33
1 MR. VERDIBELLO: Right. 1 on the site really, which is one of the odd pieces
2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 of it.
3 MR. VERDIBELLO: We thought it would be 3 Q. Okay.
4 helpful to have an actual backyard. 4 MR. VERDIBELLO: Thank you. I have no
5 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: All right. 5 further direct questions. I don't know if the
6 Good idea. 6 Board has any questions for Mr. Walker.
7 A. In terms of the building, I think I've 7 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: I think it
8 described all the major pieces and parts. We've 8 might be best for us to let you proceed with all
9 provided you with samples of intended materials. 9 of your experts and then we will have the Board
10 We've provided you with some imagery and 10 question the experts and then we'll have the
11 renderings of the overall site. I don't know if 11 public question the experts and add any comments
12 there's any other items you'd like me to talk 12 to the record and then, of course, from staff.
13 about. 13 MR. VERDIBELLO: Okay.
14 Q. Just a couple of questions just, again, 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
15 for clarity of the record. Part of what's 15 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
16 dictating the height, correct me if I'm wrong, is 16 MR. VERDIBELLO: The next expert this
17 the fact that, you know, we're in a floodplain and 17 evening -- or witness this evening, will be our
18 consideration for elements such as the railroad 18 project engineer, Eric Ballou of InSite
19 tracks, correct? 19 Engineering.
20 A. Correct. And, again, let me reference 20 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: And if you
21 to the proper drawing. Just for reference sake, 21 could briefly qualify your witness.
22 I'm looking at A-206. A-206 is a blowup of the 22 E R I C B A L L O U, having been duly
23 south elevation and it actually shows in that 23 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
24 drawing the graphic distances to the adjacent rail 24 THE WITNESS: In regards to
25 lines. 25 qualifications --

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 Page 34 Page 36
1 MR. VERDIBELLO: If you could just speak 1 trash receptacles to really try to pull the
2 into the mic. 2 property together with the public improvement of
3 THE WITNESS: In regards to 3 that pedestrian walkway.
4 qualifications, I haven't really testified very 4 Along the entire walkway right now,
5 often in front of this Board, but I have done a 5 there's already lighting there. So we're actually
6 lot of projects through the Planning Board at 6 able to even utilize the existing lighting that's
7 Jersey City. Key projects that we see from the 7 there to even light the plaza area, continue that
8 parking lot: Harborside, Urby, Columbus Towers, 8 same type of aesthetic look through there.
9 225 Grand, the Vantage, 18 Park -- 9 This project right now, this whole
10 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. But 10 entire site basically is all paved parking area,
11 are you a PE and where is your license to 11 so there's very extremely limited planting on
12 practice? 12 that. With good proper landscaping, we're
13 THE WITNESS: Understood. So my license 13 actually able to decrease the amount of impervious
14 is as a professional engineer in the State of New 14 area out here. So when we do that, we actually
15 Jersey and my license is current and active with 15 have opportunities to put perimeter plantings on
16 no restrictions on it. 16 almost all sides of the building. Where the
17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Very good. 17 property sort of comes to a pinch point, again,
18 We accept your qualifications. 18 another planting opportunity.
19 MR. VERDIBELLO: Thank you. 19 So we're actually introducing a lot more
20 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you. 20 landscaping on this property than what presently
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 21 exists there today.
22 So I do have another exhibit to be 22 BY MR. VERDIBELLO:
23 entered in. 23 Q. About how -- can you estimate about how
24 MR. VERDIBELLO: Sure. She'll mark it. 24 large that top corner will be, the top landscaped
25 (Whereupon, exhibit is received and 25 corner on Exhibit A-8?
Page 35 Page 37
1 marked Exhibit A-8 into evidence.) 1 A. So it scales about 70 feet by about 30
2 THE WITNESS: So this exhibit is really 2 feet at its widest.
3 a colored rendering of the landscape plan 3 Q. Okay.
4 superimposed over an aerial image to give you a 4 A. So it's a sizeable area.
5 good understanding of the project as I go through 5 And the great part about when you do a
6 it. 6 redevelopment like this, a revitalization project
7 So for the project access, we basically 7 like this, the benefits are not only having more
8 have frontage in Jersey City on Harrison Street. 8 opportunities for green and trees, it has a direct
9 So on Harrison Street, we'll have a two-way 9 relationship to the stormwater management and
10 driveway that allows access into the building. 10 stormwater aspects of this site.
11 And along our frontage, as we do in almost all our 11 It's an interesting site now. The
12 projects, we'll replace all of the curbing and all 12 stormwater now actually flows towards the east.
13 of the sidewalks and do that as an improvement to 13 So its entire parking lot area has inlets that
14 the city. 14 collect that water, goes on Marshall Street and
15 The other major aspect change that we're 15 then empties into the Observer Highway stormwater
16 doing is this plaza area. Right now the 16 collection system. So even though our property is
17 pedestrian walkway along this western edge is 17 in Jersey City, the entire .36 acres is draining
18 basically a 6-foot-high fence that completely 18 into Hoboken and tying into their systems.
19 separates our property from the pedestrian 19 So what we're proposing as part of this
20 walkway. This project is proposing to totally 20 project is actually go through and install
21 change that by putting like a 10-foot-wide by 21 sanitary and stormwater that connects our site to
22 160-foot long stretch of plaza area to truly 22 existing sanitary combined sewer that exists on
23 connect the property to the pedestrian path. And 23 Jersey Avenue. It's about a 400-foot extension of
24 when we do that, this gave us an opportunity to 24 sanitary and storm.
25 put things such as benches, tables, bike racks, 25 But by making that utility extension,

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 Page 38
1 what that's going to let us do is take the entire
2 building area, which is closer to approximately
3 half an acre, and actually disconnect that from
4 the Hoboken systems, transfer that to where we
5 believe it should be, a Jersey City property, into
6 the Jersey City systems.
7 So we're actually going to be not only
8 reducing flows based upon having more landscaping,
9 we're also adding on a stormwater management
10 system, so a detention system in regards to this.
11 And the project even has a green roof that we
12 didn't even take any credit for.
13 So when you look at all those different
14 stormwater management techniques for the overall
15 site, we're greatly reducing the runoff. And then
16 when you look particularly at where the stormwater
17 goes now compared to where it's going to go, we're
18 going to have only approximately a third of the
19 site will go into Hoboken where the full site does
20 now.
21 And when you look at it further, that
22 third of the property that goes there now, instead
23 of pavement, is actually going to be vegetation
24 and open space. So we're going to be decreasing
25 our runoffs completely into the Hoboken system.
Page 39
1 Q. So just to highlight, is there a
2 difference between just having a macadam parking
3 lot and what's being proposed?
4 A. Most definitely. You know, when you
5 have a paved parking lot with vehicles parking
6 there, you have also water quality as well. So
7 when you have -- basically we call that dirty
8 pavement, where it's blacktop pavement.
9 On this project, instead of having that
10 condition, we've actually taken all of the parking
11 and put it inside the building with green roofs,
12 so it's a lot of water quality enhancement. You
13 have a water quality improvement when you make
14 these changes. So you not only get a reduction of
15 volume water and rate, you get an improvement in
16 water quality with a project such as this.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 A. In regards to water, there is the
19 ability to connect to a 16-inch main on Hoboken
20 Avenue, which is in Jersey City. So we have
21 availability of water relatively close for this
22 project.
23 This was unique for Jersey City MUA as
24 well. So when we submitted the plans, we actually
25 had a meeting with them because they recognized
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Page 40
1 that they didn't have sanitary or storm lines
2 within this area.
3 But we met with them, they came up with
4 a solution to do an extension to tie in to Jersey
5 Avenue. And they even mentioned that Jersey
6 Avenue, too, they're looking at doing an
7 improvement project with that combined sewer as
8 well. So there may be an opportunity to combine
9 our tie-ins with their improvement project. Maybe
10 we can do it all at one time. So there were some
11 discussions that we had with them.
12 With regards to the engineering letter,
13 we did receive an engineering letter. They asked
14 us to really review the location of the driveway
15 and the access into the building due to the
16 different angles. We'll work with them to work
17 out a solution that's acceptable to them. We feel
18 there is a strong solution to keep the driveway in
19 Jersey City as we'd like and still make it be
20 fully functional to meet their requirements.
21 The rest of the comments in the
22 engineering letter are very common, such as
23 pavement repairs, replacements, and ADA access.
24 And as I worked out many times before, we would
25 continue to work with engineering to solve their
Page 41
1 issues.
2 Parking. Might as well address all the
3 parking numbers. So we're parking this project in
4 accordance with the R-3 zoning requirements. With
5 regards to studios, there are no parking spaces
6 required. One bedroom, half a space per unit; two
7 bedroom, one space per unit.
8 Retail, 1 per 600 when you go above
9 5,000 square feet. The commercial component that
10 we have is 3,800, so you don't need parking for
11 the commercial component.
12 So when you look at our demand, we
13 basically require 76 spaces of parking. And
14 through the valet, stacked parking, the valeted
15 system that's there, we're going to provide 147
16 spaces. So we actually have a surplus of 71
17 spaces above the R-3 requirements in regards to
18 our parking footprint.
19 Q. Right.
20 MR. VERDIBELLO: And what will be
21 testified to later on by our parking expert is
22 that it's, as we've made reference to, it's a
23 valet system parking, which would be 24-hour
24 manned, but you'll hear testimony to that, so
25 that's why we keep using that term.
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 Page 42 Page 44
1 BY MR. VERDIBELLO: 1 simple fact that there's an abundance of mass
2 Q. Is that it? 2 transit, as everyone knows. The Light Rail is
3 A. That's all I have from a civil 3 within walking distance. You can walk to the
4 engineering site perspective. 4 Second Street station in about five minutes from
5 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Very good. 5 this proposed project.
6 So we'll hear from your next expert. 6 The PATH down in Hoboken, it's about
7 MR. VERDIBELLO: Okay, thank you. 7 eight-tenths of a mile. A little long for walking
8 Our next expert is Dan DiSario of Langan 8 distance, but certainly within reason for someone
9 Engineering, who will give testimony as far as the 9 to walk from this project directly to the PATH to
10 traffic impact of the proposed project. 10 get into the city.
11 D A N I E L D I S A R I O, having 11 So I would respectfully submit to you
12 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as 12 that I anticipate most of the people that will
13 follows: 13 live in this proposed project will not rely on
14 THE WITNESS: For the record, my name is 14 owning a car to get around. I think a lot of
15 Dan, last name is DiSario, D-I-S-A-R-I O. 15 people that will live in this project won't even
16 DIRECT-EXAMINATION 16 own a car.
17 BY MR. VERDIBELLO: 17 But having said that, we have estimated
18 Q. And, Mr. DiSario, briefly set forth for 18 how much traffic these 161 units that are proposed
19 the record your experience and whether or not 19 would generate based on published trip rates. I'm
20 you've testified before other land use boards. 20 sure the Board is familiar. The I.T.E., Institute
21 A. Certainly. Bachelor of science in civil 21 of Transportation Engineers, puts out a
22 engineering, Temple University. Master of 22 publication entitled "Trip Generation." It's in
23 science, transportation engineering, N.J.I.T. 23 its tenth edition and it's basically a collection
24 Licensed professional engineer, State of New 24 of data for various land uses throughout the
25 Jersey. I've been accepted as an expert in 25 country and then a culmination of trip rates that

Page 43 Page 45
1 traffic engineering before hundreds of boards 1 anyone can use to estimate how much traffic would
2 throughout New Jersey. 2 be generated for a particular use based on its
3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Excellent. 3 size.
4 Thank you. We accept your qualifications. 4 So for a high-rise apartment building,
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 5 which is Land Use Code 222, multi-family housing
6 BY MR. VERDIBELLO: 6 high-rise, in that publication, the proposed 161
7 Q. Mr. DiSario, I know we've submitted, as 7 units would generate, during the morning peak
8 part of our application, a traffic statement for 8 hours, so one hour between 7 and 9 in the morning,
9 review by the Board, but if you could please take 9 eight trips coming in, 49 trips leaving the site,
10 the Board through the review that you've done of 10 for a total two-way traffic of 57 trips.
11 the project. 11 During the evening peak hour, so one
12 A. Certainly. I would start by 12 hour between 4 and 6 in the afternoon, using the
13 characterizing this project being consistent with 13 same trip rates, the proposed 161 units would be
14 what we've heard probably now for 20 years, 14 estimated to generate 41 vehicles coming in and 24
15 particularly in our state. Smart growth. Smart 15 vehicles exiting, for a total two-way traffic of
16 growth, smart growth, smart growth. Efficient use 16 65 trips.
17 of land when you're developing projects. 17 Now, many entities, including the New
18 A tenet of smart growth is to locate 18 Jersey Department of Transportation, consider any
19 people in close proximity to mass transit. The 19 use that generates less than 100 peak-hour trips
20 better and higher the density next to mass 20 as having an insignificant traffic impact.
21 transit, the less people rely on their personal 21 I will point out to you that next to
22 vehicles to get around, both to and from work, to 22 this site is the Hoboken Business Center. I would
23 and from shopping. 23 characterize the Hoboken Business Center as it
24 This project is consistent with smart 24 relates to a traffic generator to be very similar
25 planning and smart growth in our state for the 25 to what's proposed before you this evening. There

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 Page 46 Page 48
1 were historical counts that were done back in 2011 1 significant and no one would be able to discern
2 of the Hoboken Business Center and that office 2 any noticeable difference between operations right
3 building right now generates about 65 trips two 3 now that occur surrounding the site versus
4 way, both in the morning peak hour and in the 4 operations in the future if the Board was --
5 evening peak hour. 5 granted approval and this applicant would build
6 If you go and travel the adjacent roads, 6 this proposed development, particularly as it
7 or walk them like I have, I would characterize 7 relates to the differential between how many units
8 traffic from the Hoboken Business Center as 8 are allowed, which is 91, versus how many units
9 basically being insignificant. If you drive along 9 the applicant is proposing, which is 161, for a
10 Observer Highway or if you drive down Harrison 10 net difference of 70 units.
11 Street, you do not even notice traffic that's 11 And with that, I conclude my testimony.
12 coming into or out of the parking lot that serves 12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 the Hoboken Business Center. 13 A. Thank you.
14 This proposed residential building is 14 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
15 similar in terms of its traffic and its estimated 15 MR. VERDIBELLO: Our next witness will
16 traffic to the current Hoboken Business Center. 16 be our professional planner. But before we get to
17 Now, I'll leave you with this as well. 17 our professional planner, we'll bring up our
18 The zoning contemplates residential on this piece 18 parking expert just to explain the valet parking
19 of property. And you'll hear from the planner 19 system for the Board.
20 shortly with his testimony. Right now the 20 L A N C E H O W A R D, having been
21 applicant's entitled to put a residential building 21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
22 on this property that could, by zoning and by 22 follows:
23 right, have 91 units in it. 23 DIRECT-EXAMINATION
24 The applicant is proposing 161 units. 24 BY MR. VERDIBELLO:
25 So there's a net difference of what's permitted by 25 Q. And, Mr. Howard, please state for the

Page 47 Page 49
1 right versus what's being proposed of 70 units. 1 record your occupation and your educational
2 Now, I think that's very important because really 2 experience.
3 we should be focusing on what that difference is 3 A. I'm the owner of Little Man Parking.
4 in terms of number of units and density, which the 4 We've been a public parking operator since 1999.
5 planner will testify to, as well as how much 5 I'm a graduate of the University of Michigan. Go
6 traffic would be associated with that difference. 6 Blue. And I currently operate the parking
7 So for 70 units, the traffic associated 7 facilities in Jersey City.
8 with that would be three trips coming in in the 8 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Very good.
9 morning, 22 trips exiting, for total two-way 9 Thank you.
10 traffic of 25. 10 THE WITNESS: In a addition to a total
11 Similarly, in the evening peak hour for 11 of 36 overall.
12 70 units, 18 trips would come in and 11 trips 12 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: We accept
13 would leave, for a total two-way traffic of 29 13 your qualifications as a parking expert.
14 trips. 14 BY MR. VERDIBELLO:
15 That amount of additional traffic over 15 Q. Mr. Howard, we've used the term "valet
16 what's allowed equates to about one trip every two 16 parking" throughout this application. Could you
17 minutes during peak hours. If you just think 17 please explain for the Board what that means?
18 about that for a second and if we just sat here 18 A. Sure. In this context and in most of
19 and stayed quiet for two minutes, during that 19 the facilities that we do run is a valet
20 time, it would feel like an eternity, but one trip 20 operation. We would station an attendant, in this
21 would be generated by that difference in terms of 21 case, probably more than one, to accommodate 147
22 the additional 70 units that the applicant is 22 spaces that are proposed in this project. The
23 seeking. 23 customers would drive their vehicle into the
24 I would respectfully submit to you that 24 queuing section or reservoir on the main floor.
25 that level of traffic increase even more so is not 25 We would collect the car there, bring it up onto

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 Page 50 Page 52
1 the elevator and park it in the upper floors and 1 prequalify Mr. Kolling.
2 then retrieve it when the customer returns to 2 MR. VERDIBELLO: I didn't want him to
3 check out. 3 feel different.
4 Typically in valet situations, we use 4 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: I know. I
5 revenue control equipment that allows customers to 5 know, but he's appeared before the Board many
6 text ahead for their car. That increases the 6 times and we accept his qualifications.
7 efficiencies of both parking and retrieving the 7 MR. VERDIBELLO: Thank you.
8 vehicles and minimizing queue times. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 Q. And in a valet parking system, does the 9 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
10 individual vehicle owner park his or her own car, 10 Proceed.
11 or is that done by your operation? 11 DIRECT-EXAMINATION
12 A. It's done by the professional parking 12 BY MR. VERDIBELLO:
13 attendant. We park all the cars. Particularly in 13 Q. Mr. Kolling, if you could just explain
14 this application, there's a lift system, so all 14 for the Board the planning rationale for the
15 vehicles will be driven and parked by our parking 15 variances that we're asking for this evening.
16 attendants. 16 A. I'm going to reiterate a few points.
17 Q. And with a valet parking system, does 17 I'll try to keep it brief. The property is at the
18 that allow you -- would it be fair to say that 18 corner of Harrison Street and Hoboken Avenue. It
19 that allows you, as the operator, to utilize the 19 is right at the edge of Jersey City there. Many
20 parking format to accommodate, if there should, 20 people think that it is in Hoboken. As a matter
21 for instance, be a peak in demand or a spike in 21 of fact, Cal's Hot Dog stand that's right there
22 demand, as far as where to position the new cars? 22 says "The Best Hot Dogs in Hoboken," so there you
23 A. Absolutely. We staff the facilities 23 go.
24 based upon the traffic flows. We're currently 24 The property is a large site. It's
25 operating the parking facility on the site, so 25 27,500 square feet. That's over .63 acres. It's

Page 51 Page 53
1 we're familiar with the traffic flow that's 1 crescent shaped. It's very irregular. It's long,
2 currently there, as well as several other 2 it's narrow. But it does have 80 feet of frontage
3 facilities in Jersey City. And we typically 3 on Harrison Street. So although it appears to be
4 park -- or the normal standard operating procedure 4 a narrow strip, it really is 80 feet, which is not
5 would be we request from the customer parking when 5 insubstantial. It is a pretty good distance along
6 they plan on returning. We park the cars within 6 the street to accommodate access, both pedestrian
7 the facility in the order that they're checking 7 and vehicular.
8 out. So the cars leaving the shortest period of 8 The current use is a parking lot.
9 time are up front; the cars leaving the later 9 That's nonconforming. It's not permitted by the
10 times are parked farther back. This creates 10 zoning. It's a preexisting nonconforming use.
11 greater efficiency for check in/check out times. 11 As was mentioned, the site has a heavy
12 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Howard. I have no 12 rail line to the south leading to the Lackawanna
13 further direct questions. 13 Terminal. The Light Rail is to the west, as well
14 A. Thank you. 14 as other railroad property.
15 MR. VERDIBELLO: We'll bring up our next 15 The pedestrian way, there's a
16 witness, Ed Kolling, our professional planner. 16 bike/pedestrian way that New Jersey Transit built
17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you. 17 along the edge of this property. It leads to the
18 E D W A R D K O L L I N G, having 18 Second Street station, which is a very convenient
19 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as 19 way of accessing that station.
20 follows: 20 To the north is the Hoboken Business
21 DIRECT-EXAMINATION 21 Center and to the east is an industrial building.
22 BY MR. VERDIBELLO: 22 Both of those buildings are in Hoboken.
23 Q. And, Mr. Kolling, if you could just 23 That area of Hoboken is now within
24 state for the record your -- 24 what's called the Southwest Redevelopment Area and
25 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: No need to 25 that permits a mixture of uses, mostly commercial

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 Page 54
1 and office and some industrial uses, but it also
2 does permit residential units.
3 In fact, on the property adjacent to
4 this within Hoboken, there's a suggestion or a
5 recommendation within the redevelopment plan of a
6 structure of a 500-car parking garage and the
7 ability to put residential units on top of that
8 and retail uses in the bottom. So that would be
9 not dissimilar to what we're proposing. I think
10 that's important in terms of the consistency not
11 just with Jersey City development, but with
12 Hoboken development.
13 As I mentioned, the zoning is R-3. It
14 permits multi-family, multi-story housing, as well
15 as ground-floor commercial and new construction on
16 corner lots, which this is. The lot is at the
17 corner of Harrison Street and Hoboken Avenue and
18 parking is a permitted accessory use, as are the
19 recreational facilities that are related with the
20 residential development.
21 In terms of zoning, the property is also
22 within the Palisades Preservation Overlay
23 District, PPOD. However, it is located over 450
24 feet. It is located, in fact, over 500 feet from
25 the cliff face even at the closest point, which
Page 55
1 literally is a point. The rear lot line is
2 actually just a rear lot.
3 So the height restrictions that would
4 typically limit development closer to the
5 Palisades do not apply to this property. And
6 speaking about the uniqueness of this property, in
7 fact, this is the only property in that area that
8 it doesn't apply to. It's far enough away because
9 of the odd shape of the way Jersey City's property
10 line with Hoboken bends in that location.
11 In terms of the master plan, the
12 property is also designated for R-3 district
13 development as per the 2000 master plan.
14 Now, the proposed development, I won't
15 go through that in much detail, but you've heard
16 that from the architect, the a number of units,
17 the number of parking spaces. There will also be
18 a green roof included in this. There'll be
19 charging stations, six charging stations on the
20 parking level. There's bike sharing. So the
21 building is a green building in that regard.
22 The parking is compliant with the R-3
23 standards and, in fact, exceeds it. Essentially
24 this is a nine-story residential building over
25 ground-floor commercial with three levels of
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Page 56
1 parking in between.
2 The variances, we're looking at a D-1
3 use variance, but it's really more akin to, say,
4 the D-5 and D-6, density and height because the
5 difference between the building proposed and the
6 building that's permitted is simply a matter of
7 density and height. Other than that, the uses are
8 essentially the same.
9 The "C" variances typically are subsumed
10 within the use variance, but I think what you
11 really need to look at here is the extremely
12 irregular shape, the unusual shape of this
13 property, which would result in hardships in
14 trying to comply. That, combined with the
15 topography, meaning that it's in the flood hazard
16 area, would also have it be impactful.
17 So I think, going to the proofs, this
18 subject property is particularly well-suited for
19 this type of high-rise development, including the
20 additional density and additional height. The
21 property is less than a quarter mile to the Second
22 Street Light Rail, as the traffic engineer
23 discussed. It's actually immediately adjacent to
24 the walkway that leads you directly to that Light
25 Rail station.
Page 57
1 It's a large site. It's 27,500. So
2 larger sites can accommodate more height and more
3 density more easily because of the efficiencies of
4 the site.
5 And it's actually even 5,000 square feet
6 larger than the largest lot classification under
7 the R-3, which permits the 145 units per acre.
8 The property is also unique within the
9 R-3 district. This property, along with other
10 properties in the surrounding area within the R-3
11 zone, and as was designated in the master plan,
12 however, again, this property is the only property
13 that is entirely beyond the 450-foot limit, which
14 triggers the height limitations.
15 As such, I believe the approval for the
16 additional height for this property is not
17 contrary to the intent and purpose of the Palisade
18 Preservation Overlay District, nor to the intent
19 and purpose of the zone plan in general, nor is
20 the additional density because of the proximity to
21 mass transportation.
22 The property, as I said, rather long, is
23 crescent shaped on the southern property line. It
24 bends to the west from Harrison Street and the
25 other property line is a straight line along the
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
 Page 58
1 Hoboken borderline. It has 80 feet of frontage,
2 but it has no real rear yard. It comes to a
3 point. So, again, that's difficult in trying to
4 apply, say, rear yard standards or something along
5 those lines.
6 Again, just to the south is the elevated
7 tracks of the Lackawanna railroad. I mean, these
8 will have an impact on the property. And as the
9 architect mentioned, I think it's important for
10 this building to be somewhat lifted above that,
11 which accounts for somewhat of the height and the
12 amount of parking we're able to provide. And the
13 tracks actually create a formidable barrier in
14 this location.
15 When you move to the west of this
16 property, beyond the bike lane, there's a
17 stormwater detention area that's owned by New
18 Jersey Transit. There's -- it's over 1.9 acres in
19 area. The Light Rail line is also adjacent to
20 that. There's also some private property. And
21 then -- before we can even get to the Palisades.
22 So it's pretty remote from the Palisades when you
23 look at it from the position of being across the
24 Light Rail station, where the Light Rail tracks
25 are starting, this detention basin, portions of
Page 59
1 New York Avenue, which bend as they come up and go
2 up under Palisade Avenue and then into the
3 Heights.
4 So I think that it's demonstrated that
5 the property's well-suited to accommodate the
6 added density and height without detrimental
7 impact because of the proximity to public
8 transportation, the property's large area, the
9 property's location, isolated from other
10 properties, and specially from the Palisade cliff.
11 So the development of a 13-story building would
12 not be out of character. It would not cause any
13 detriment.
14 It was also already discussed that there
15 are other buildings within the area that are
16 roughly this distance from the Palisades or
17 further, a 17-story building in Hoboken to the
18 north. Jersey Avenue Redevelopment Plan to the
19 south permits buildings that are 20, 25, 26
20 stories. To the east, existing buildings, the
21 Hoboken Grand is 15 stories. I can't remember the
22 name of the building, but I believe it was
23 constructed by Toll Brothers on the Jersey City
24 border in Jersey City.
25 Q. 700 Grove.
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Page 60
1 A. Thank you. 700 Grove Street. That's 13
2 stories. So this building is not out of scale or
3 out of character.
4 So, therefore, granting the height
5 variance also would not be a substantial detriment
6 to the character of the area.
7 Also, now we have to look at the
8 positive criteria and I think that there are
9 positive impacts and improvements to this area.
10 The project provides improvements along the
11 existing pedestrian/bicycle path to enhance the
12 pedestrian environment.
13 We propose removing the fencing, adding
14 landscaping, creating a more desirable or
15 aesthetic edge, activating it with the commercial
16 use that's being proposed. I think these are all
17 positives, creating more eyes on the street,
18 creating and enhancing pedestrian and bicycling
19 safety.
20 The project promotes a lot of additional
21 green development techniques, green roof, the
22 charging stations, high-efficiency equipment and
23 appliances, low-volt fixtures.
24 These are all things that are also a
25 public benefit or beneficial.
Page 61
1 Also, the improvements to the drainage
2 and stormwater systems that the engineer has
3 discussed.
4 So the project also advances the
5 purposes of the Municipal Land Use Law. The
6 approval of the proposed development will be a
7 municipal action that will guide the appropriate
8 use of the property as a high-rise multi-family
9 building. Multi-story multi-family buildings are
10 already a permitted use in the zone and the
11 subject property is particularly suited to
12 accommodate the additional height, the additional
13 density.
14 The proposed development will remove a
15 nonconforming use, which brings the site into
16 better conformance with the zone plan. That's a
17 promotion of public good as well.
18 And, therefore, the development -- or
19 the approval of the development will promote the
20 public safety and general welfare consistent with
21 N.J.S.A. 40:55D-2(a).
22 I also believe that the approval of the
23 proposed project promotes the establishment of
24 appropriate population density. Notwithstanding
25 the fact that we are asking for a density
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
 Page 62
1 variance, this site is particularly well-suited
2 for the added density given its proximity to the
3 Light Rail. And actually, as the traffic engineer
4 mentioned, it's about a three-quarter-of-a-mile
5 walk to the station, Hoboken station, which has
6 multiple forms of transportation there. It's not
7 within the typical half-mile radius that you look
8 for, but it is a direct walk. And at least on a
9 pleasant day, it's not a bad walk at all. So I
10 think that promotes N.J.S.A. 40:55D-2(e).
11 Also promotes a desirable visual
12 environment. I think it's a very attractive
13 building, especially since it's replacing what's
14 basically a surface parking lot. And that's
15 subparagraph 2(i).
16 And also the granting of the variances
17 promotes the conservation of energy resources,
18 valuable natural resources and the prevention of
19 urban sprawl through green development techniques
20 and its location near mass transit, which is
21 subparagraph 2(j).
22 I'd also mention that one of the
23 purposes of the Municipal Land Use Law is to
24 ensure that the development of individual
25 municipalities do not conflict with the general
Page 63
1 welfare of neighboring municipalities. And in
2 that regard, you have to look at the Southwest
3 Redevelopment Plan. The Southwest Redevelopment
4 Plan on the immediately adjacent property would
5 allow for structured parking. It would allow for
6 ground-floor commercial. It would allow for
7 residential above. So it's not dissimilar
8 whatsoever in terms of the types of uses that
9 would be permitted. And, therefore, this project
10 is not inconsistent with the development pattern
11 of the adjoining municipality.
12 I think that demonstrates that the
13 property, proposed development, meets the positive
14 criteria, provides substantial public benefits,
15 promotes the purposes of the Municipal Land Use
16 Law, promotes the intent and purpose of the zone
17 plan. And I think, therefore, we meet that
18 positive criteria.
19 Given the testimony of the traffic
20 engineer about the detriments of traffic and how
21 limited they are, given the testimony of the civil
22 engineer, who discussed the improvements to the
23 drainage system, the granting of the variance
24 would also not result in a substantial detriment
25 to the public good and general welfare.
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Page 64
1 In fact, I think that it would promote
2 the public good and general welfare through the
3 removal of the surface parking area, the use of
4 green development techniques, the improvements to
5 the public walkway and bike way, and the
6 improvements to the stormwater detention.
7 Also, there'd be no substantial
8 detriment to the intent and purpose of the zone
9 plan. Again, the property's already zoned for
10 multi-story multi-family development. The
11 incremental difference is not that significant in
12 terms of the height.
13 I think the height is also a result in
14 terms of being able to accommodate the adjacent
15 heavy rail line that's there. It's also necessary
16 in terms of the soil conditions that are there and
17 being able to address those. And I don't think
18 that the additional height or density is a
19 substantial detriment to the zone plan, again,
20 because this site is unique. The rest of the R-3
21 zone is in much closer proximity to the Palisades
22 and this property is not. It has the ability of
23 being developed more along the lines of the
24 high-rise development.
25 And in terms of the "C" or bulk
Page 65
1 variances, again, I think they can be wrapped up
2 under the C-1 criteria, specifically about the
3 hardship that's caused by the topography given the
4 flood hazard area, but also the shape of the
5 property. It's very unusual and irregularly
6 shaped, the difficulty, therefore, in developing
7 this in a standard or typical matter.
8 But also, you can look at it from the
9 perspective of the C-2. That, in this case, the
10 improvements that this building will make over the
11 existing conditions are substantial and they far
12 outweigh any minor detriments that would result
13 from the granting of this development approval.
14 So I believe that we've met the positive
15 and negative criteria for the D-1 or, in the
16 alternative, the D-5 and D-6 variances because I
17 think they're really one and the same. And also
18 in terms of supporting the "C" variances under
19 both the C-1 and C-2.
20 MR. VERDIBELLO: Okay. That concludes
21 our direct testimony. We'll now open it up to any
22 questions that the Board may have.
23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Yeah. And
24 I think Mr. Kolling can probably stay up because I
25 know at least I have a few. But let's talk about
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
 Page 66 Page 68
1 how we'll proceed. I think we'll first allow for 1 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: I think you
2 the commissioners to pose questions to the 2 misunderstood my question and I probably
3 witnesses. Then we will open it up for questions 3 misphrased it. But, in my view, that area is
4 for the expert witnesses to the public. 4 zoned for mid-level rise because there is a
5 This is not your chance to opine and 5 respect and an understanding of what they were
6 enter comments into the record. That will come 6 trying to accomplish with the PPOD itself.
7 later, after we hear from staff. So this is an 7 And you will see, if you're looking at
8 opportunity to ask pointed questions to the 8 our viewsheds from the Heights, that there are
9 applicant's experts. Okay? Very good. 9 higher buildings and higher density permitted
10 Although I'm going to ask some 10 closer to the river. The reason for that is to
11 questions. I get all the time I want. All right. 11 protect the viewsheds.
12 So, Mr. Kolling, in talking about how 12 So I am asking you, as a professional
13 there are other, you know, high-rise and dense 13 planner, how do you reconcile that?
14 buildings in that area, you also mentioned the 14 THE WITNESS: I have to repeat my
15 large building at Marshall Street in Hoboken. 15 answer. I'm reconciling it that it's not -- when
16 Are you aware of the history of kind of 16 the PPOD was created, it also had a recognition of
17 the zoning battles regarding the PPOD ordinance at 17 how far away the height limitations would apply.
18 Marshall Street? 18 The number that's in there is 450 feet. This is
19 THE WITNESS: For that particular 19 beyond that.
20 building? 20 It's not dissimilar to how, when you
21 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Yes. 21 just go a little bit further south in Jersey City,
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know the 22 there are portions of the Jersey Avenue
23 particulars of its initial approval. Sometime 23 Redevelopment Plan where the PPOD applies. And
24 after that, I did get involved with the person who 24 where the line goes through, just on the other
25 fought the approval and was constructing it. But 25 side of that, you're able to construct buildings

Page 67 Page 69
1 I don't know what happened during the history of 1 that are 18, 20, 25 stories tall.
2 its approval. 2 This would be an analogous situation.
3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. So 3 We're just on the other side of that 450-foot
4 that building was constructed in violation of the 4 line, maybe 50 or 60 feet further from the nearest
5 PPOD variance. People from the Jersey City 5 point, and, therefore, it would be a similar sort
6 Heights, residents, I was among them, you know, 6 of situation. So this property I think can be
7 filed suit opposing that. 7 reconciled in that given its distance from the
8 And the judge said, "You know what, 8 cliff face.
9 residents? You guys are absolutely right. But 9 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. I
10 the building's up already. The developer wins." 10 respectfully disagree, but thank you for the
11 So that's not exactly the best example 11 explanation.
12 to use when we're dealing with height 12 Are you an advocate of smart growth?
13 discrepancies. So that said, and just 13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 understanding how this is supposed to work, how do 14 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: So you're
15 you reconcile increasing the height over mid-rise 15 having a smart growth plan. Why do we have so
16 level when that zoning -- that zoning plan was 16 many parking spots in this building?
17 actually something that was considered and 17 THE WITNESS: This area, because it's
18 deliberated about when they came up with the PPOD 18 immediately adjacent to Hoboken, there are not a
19 ordinance. How do you reconcile those things? 19 lot of alternative parking locations. Other areas
20 THE WITNESS: Well, it's unique within 20 where you're part of, say, the physical grid of
21 the PPOD. It's unique within the R-3. It is not 21 Jersey City, you would have an alternative
22 within the dimensional limitations that trigger 22 location, say, for visitors or persons that might
23 the height limitations. It's beyond that and, 23 have cars or an extra car, where you would
24 therefore, I think that this property can be 24 compete, like everybody else does, with on-street
25 looked at a little differently. 25 parking.

18 (Pages 66 to 69)

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 Page 70
1 But in this case, because of its
2 isolation, there's no ability to park on, say, New
3 York Avenue, which is the extension of Observer
4 Highway, there's no opportunity to park on Newark
5 Street or Hoboken Avenue where it turns -- where
6 New York Avenue -- where Newark Street turns into
7 Hoboken Avenue.
8 So because of that lack of on-street
9 alternative, they would like to do the additional
10 parking. Also to accommodate some amount of the
11 parking that might be required by the commercial
12 development on the ground floor. They'd love to
13 be able to attract something that has some
14 activity and that would activate the walkway.
15 And, therefore, they would like to have the
16 ability to provide that parking.
17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: But this
18 plan boasts that it has in excess of parking
19 spaces. You know, like 71 extra parking spaces or
20 something like that. I'm trying to reconcile that
21 with the smart growth principles that everybody's
22 so concerned about.
23 THE WITNESS: It's 71 spaces over what
24 the minimum is and this zone has a minimum parking
25 requirement. It doesn't have a maximum, so you
Page 71
1 could have others.
2 We have 161 units; we have 147 spaces.
3 So it is less than a one-to-one ratio. And there
4 are the commercial opportunities on the ground
5 floor that would probably have some parking demand
6 as well.
7 So I don't think that it's necessarily
8 overparked, but, again, given its isolation from
9 streets that can accommodate any overflow, the
10 developer thought that it would be better to
11 provide additional parking over the minimum.
12 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: But isn't
13 the easy access to public transportation supposed
14 to be one of the reasons that justifies the
15 density?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
18 Does anybody else on the Board have a
19 question for Mr. Kolling?
20 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I guess we would
21 call it from high school a rhetorical question.
22 Why would they put this piece of property in the
23 overlay zone, but come up with this rule that it's
24 454 feet instead of 400 feet, so it's exempt from
25 the other rules of the overlay zone?
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Page 72
1 THE WITNESS: I have a theory. I don't
2 know if it's correct, but I have a theory. You've
3 probably heard this a lot of times. In the
4 distant past, I was a draftsman. I was a planning
5 draftsman in the planning office here. I didn't
6 draw that line. But my theory would be that if
7 they were following the boundary line of the city,
8 between Hoboken and Jersey City, they simply
9 continued along that line and then, when they hit
10 the heavy rail, you can see how it works. I don't
11 have it here. But if you look at it, it kind of
12 curves around with the boundary and then, when it
13 hits the heavy rail line, it just shoots right
14 back.
15 It might have been more logical to
16 follow the rail line that ran more parallel to the
17 Palisade because that rail line is approximately
18 450 feet distance from the Palisade. It probably
19 would have made more sense, more logically to
20 follow the Light Rail line, although the Light
21 Rail at that time didn't exist. It was planned
22 and its right-of-way was anticipated, but it
23 didn't really exist at that time, although there
24 always had been a freight line along there. A
25 hundred years. And it would have made more sense
Page 73
1 to follow that, but they didn't. The draftsman
2 must have just followed the municipal boundary.
3 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Okay.
4 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Does
5 anybody else from the Board have questions for any
6 of the other expert witnesses?
7 BOARD MEMBER SHEDEED: Actually, I have
8 a question of staff. Should I ask now?
9 As far as the number, this is the
10 highest and the largest project that we've ever
11 seen in the Zoning Board and I assume that this
12 size of a project should be going to the Planning
13 Board.
14 Is there any reason why the Planning
15 Board didn't see it and it comes here?
16 MS. MARIONE: So I guess the simpler
17 answer is that we probably don't see many
18 variances in the R-3 zone, which is just a higher
19 and a higher density zone. So that might not be
20 necessarily why we're that familiar with seeing a
21 building that's 13 or 15 stories.
22 But the zone already permits eight
23 stories. So to go up to -- I thought it was 13 --
24 14? Total 14? I thought I wrote 14.
25 MR. VERDIBELLO: The R-3?
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
 Page 74
1 MS. MARIONE: No, no, no. The proposal.
2 THE WITNESS: The proposal is 13
3 stories. The first floor is commercial, three
4 levels of parking, and then nine floors of
5 residential. So it's 13.
6 MS. MARIONE: The deviation is small
7 enough to be considered at the Zoning Board. And
8 it couldn't go to the Planning Board, right,
9 because it's a height and a use variance and a
10 density variance and the Planning Board has no
11 jurisdiction over that regardless. But I have a
12 feeling that's not what you were asking, right?
13 BOARD MEMBER SHEDEED: I guess, yes.
14 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: Actually, I have a
15 second question for the staff and maybe you guys
16 know. I've read somewhere that they're also
17 considering doing an ordinance where certain
18 height or certain apartments -- certain number of
19 apartments is going to trigger for you to
20 mandatorily put in affordable housing.
21 Now, we're not voting on this tonight
22 and if they pass that at the next meeting, is that
23 going to have an effect on this? I don't know
24 what the number is. I know a number's going to be
25 put out there. But this is big enough where I
Page 75
1 think it may trigger that ordinance if it comes to
2 pass.
3 I guess that's a staff question.
4 MS. MARIONE: I assume no because it's
5 getting its approvals before any ordinance would
6 go into effect.
7 MR. VERDIBELLO: There's something
8 called a time of decision rule. And the time of
9 decision rule is the law that's in effect at the
10 time of the application and the hearing is the law
11 that applies to the application.
12 So if there's a later passed law, it
13 will not apply retroactively.
14 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: It's almost like
15 being grandfathered.
16 MR. VERDIBELLO: Correct, in a manner of
17 speaking.
18 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: That brings me to
19 another question. Why wasn't affordable housing
20 considered?
21 MR. VERDIBELLO: We have been in
22 discussion with the City administration for making
23 affordable housing contributions. Affordable
24 housing is not required on site as part of the R-3
25 zoning, but we have voluntarily initiated
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Page 76
1 discussions with the administration for what would
2 be potentially an appropriate contribution to the
3 Affordable Housing Trust Fund.
4 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: That would
5 certainly enhance my view of the positive
6 criteria.
7 MR. VERDIBELLO: Even though, again,
8 since we're in strict zoning, we can't get an
9 abatement, which usually also triggers it, we have
10 volunteered it because of the nature of this, and,
11 again, to use that word that I mentioned at the
12 beginning, because of the uniqueness of the
13 project, we have initiated those conversations
14 with the administration.
15 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: My question was
16 there's a possibility that it will have affordable
17 housing?
18 MR. VERDIBELLO: Not on site. We will
19 make contributions to the Affordable Housing Trust
20 Fund.
21 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: Second question.
22 I'm not sure if this is more for the architect.
23 Why are there so many studio apartments as opposed
24 to -- because I would think you would want to have
25 families coming in there, but maybe to welcome --
Page 77
1 I'm not sure what the dynamic is. I'm just
2 curious to that larger number.
3 MR. WALKER: I'm sorry, the question
4 again was?
5 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: How many were
6 studios? I thought I heard it was -- two bedrooms
7 were like a very low number, wasn't it?
8 MR. WALKER: Sure. Let me just
9 reference you back to the right exhibit. The mix,
10 just for easy reference, is shown on a chart on
11 A-100. And it's 36 studios, 99 one-bedrooms, and
12 26 two-bedrooms. 99 one-bedrooms and 26
13 two-bedrooms.
14 And just to respond to the question
15 about the mix, in particular, one of the things
16 that I was talking about earlier in my testimony,
17 and we'll go to -- if you take a look at A-202,
18 you can see a typical unit layout. One of the
19 challenges with this property is because of the
20 geometry of the property, we really are limited in
21 terms of the way to create efficiencies in the
22 building. So we're trying to take advantage of
23 the curve to the extent possible and still create
24 a relatively efficient apartment building.
25 So once you get into the taper of the
20 (Pages 74 to 77)
 Page 78
1 curve, it becomes more challenging to create
2 efficient apartments overall. So we do have two
3 bedrooms on the ends and are taking advantage of
4 that. But then we also have a few kind of sliver
5 areas where we've included some studio apartments.
6 So that's really what's driving the mix.
7 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: Why were there 99
8 one-bedrooms in the mix I was wondering, but that
9 was my question. Because it still seems like a
10 very high number, 99, for it to be, like, just
11 based on the curve.
12 MR. WALKER: Well, again, it's based on
13 what the developer is intending in terms of the
14 target market. So thinking about the target
15 market of where we're at in this area in Jersey
16 City and looking for young professionals moving in
17 and looking for opportunities to, again -- we're
18 looking to activate this whole neighborhood
19 really. One of the things that's a little bit
20 challenging about this property overall is that
21 there aren't a lot of other adjacent properties
22 that really activate those few blocks that are
23 still Jersey City there. So we're looking to
24 create a new mix of people coming in.
25 BOARD MEMBER GUZMAN: So you did, like,
Page 79
1 market research and you saw there was a need for
2 one-bedrooms?
3 MR. WALKER: I did not personally, but
4 our developer did.
5 MR. VERDIBELLO: Again, just keeping in
6 context of the proximity, being right next to the
7 Hoboken Business Center, part of the thought
8 process was to complement the Hoboken Business
9 Center, which is not what I would refer to as a
10 traditional office building. It has a lot of
11 smaller office units, micro office units.
12 The idea is to move into the market
13 which already exists there, perhaps enhance it,
14 where you have individual businesspeople that have
15 small start-ups or smaller businesses and they
16 don't necessarily need large apartments to live.
17 They want to be on site. We don't have live/work
18 units, but we thought, you know, something that's
19 akin to that would be to complement the smaller
20 office setting with units that the people
21 practicing at Hoboken Business Center could also
22 utilize.
23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay.
24 Further questions from the Board?
25 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Yes, for the
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Page 80
1 architect. Thank you.
2 MR. WALKER: Sure.
3 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: First of all, the
4 lobby area, is that elevated above the flood zone?
5 MR. WALKER: No, it's not. If I
6 reference back -- referencing back to A-201, the
7 residential lobby area is the one area that would
8 be within the flood zone from an elevation
9 standpoint. Again, we're trying to create an
10 accessible access point for everybody coming in.
11 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Well, in a flood,
12 it's not going to be very accessible.
13 MR. WALKER: Understood, but we do need
14 to create access to get in and then up to the
15 elevators and up and out. So it is just this
16 first space that is in the lower level.
17 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: And that's okay?
18 It doesn't have to be elevated?
19 THE WITNESS: No, it would be designed
20 with flood-proofing elements to it.
21 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: So the lobby is
22 here and then the parking entrance is right next
23 to it.
24 MR. WALKER: Yes.
25 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: To protect from
Page 81
1 bad weather, is there any hangover so if you get
2 out of your car and turn it over to the valet, you
3 can get into the building without getting rained
4 on or snowed on?
5 MR. WALKER: So the queuing zone that we
6 have here, which is 125 feet deep before you get
7 to the ramp, is completely covered. You're under
8 the building at that point.
9 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: So you can access
10 from the queuing zone, not from the front door?
11 MR. WALKER: Correct. So the intent
12 there is that you could get from the residential
13 lobby back and forth to the queuing zone.
14 We also have a rear vestibule here,
15 which this is important to note as well. I should
16 have talked about this earlier. This is an area
17 for -- in the loading area. This is an area
18 where, let's say you're coming home with groceries
19 or things like that. You could drive all the way
20 up to the loading zone, unpack your car, and then
21 have the valet take it from there. And there's an
22 elevator up to the residential floors from that
23 point. So there are multiple points which would
24 be protected.
25 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: The 125-foot
21 (Pages 78 to 81)
 Page 82
1 queuing zone, where will the valets be? Will you
2 have to drive all the way to the back, or will
3 they be near the front door?
4 MR. WALKER: I think that's an
5 operational question that we should probably have
6 the --
7 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Before we get to
8 that, I have another question.
9 MR. WALKER: Sure.
10 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: To go back to the
11 issue of height, you're providing an excess of
12 parking spaces and some people have a height
13 issue. So what happens to the project if you
14 exchange the top floor of parking for another
15 floor of residents and lower the building by that
16 one floor?
17 MR. WALKER: So let me just be clear
18 about a couple of things. One, in terms of
19 parking, let's just talk about that, to play out
20 your logic for a second --
21 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I don't know if
22 there is logic to that.
23 MR. WALKER: Okay. Just to play it out
24 again, to be fair, if you removed an entire floor,
25 you would be removing 49 parking spaces overall.
Page 83
1 So that's what we're talking about right there.
2 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Okay.
3 MR. WALKER: Okay? So in terms of the
4 height, though, the key note that I'll reference
5 you to -- one of the key issues for us, again, I'm
6 going to reference back to A-206.
7 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I have it.
8 MR. WALKER: So on A-206, as a note
9 here, we're showing in elevation the Jersey
10 Transit elevated heavy rail line. And we gave you
11 dimensions here of 32 feet for the train as it's
12 traveling by.
13 The thing to keep in mind is that from
14 an acoustic and a lighting perspective, as anybody
15 knows who lives near a highway, you're not just
16 getting the sound and light, you know, on a
17 straight-line horizontal approach. You're getting
18 it actually in an array.
19 And so the concern here is that with
20 this proximity, when you actually take an array
21 from that, if you were actually lowering down
22 another story, that story of residences would be
23 negatively impacted by the rail going by every
24 day. You would have light from that and you would
25 have sound from that as you go by.
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Page 84
1 So that's really what our starting point
2 was, was saying we want to get up above that.
3 You'll notice on the elevation right now, that
4 we're at about 50 feet. I think it's 50 foot 2
5 inches from the street.
6 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Right.
7 MR. WALKER: That datum is something
8 that is really consistent with what we see in
9 Hoboken as you move north of this site in terms of
10 similar building types. And so that was part of
11 the design element here as well.
12 So while I respect the question, I think
13 the real intent here was to separate the
14 residential use from that rail line because we see
15 it as a negative impact. And since we have that
16 space available, to take advantage of it for
17 additional parking. So that's the logic behind
18 it.
19 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Can I ask a
20 follow-up to that?
21 MR. WALKER: Sure.
22 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Again, there
23 might not be logic to it. Could you attenuate
24 that issue by using some sort of wall like you see
25 on the highways, you put these walls up so the
Page 85
1 houses in the back don't get the noise? I mean,
2 you've got some very creative things going on. I
3 mean, there might be people that move from
4 Bushwick and Bed-Stuy where the Broadway line runs
5 right by the second floor of all those buildings,
6 they might be attracted to this. But let's say
7 they're not. Is there another way to attenuate it
8 that would allow you to reduce the height of the
9 building, but not lose the number of residential
10 units?
11 MR. WALKER: I think there may be other
12 approaches that we could look at, but I wouldn't
13 want to offer to remove a layer of parking in
14 order to achieve that in terms of creating some
15 kind of a sound barrier or some kind of other
16 element.
17 The other thing to keep in mind here is
18 that we are having ongoing conversation with New
19 Jersey Transit about our approach to the
20 pedestrian walkway. We can certainly explore
21 things with them related to that, but we're at the
22 edge of our property here. So we have some
23 limitations in terms of what we're able to
24 achieve, but, respectfully, we could look into it.
25 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Okay. Thank you.
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
 Page 86 Page 88
1 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Anyone else 1 Jersey City.
2 from the Board? 2 And when these really take effect is
3 COMMISSIONER VILARDO: I have a quick 3 when you have rainfall events. Unfortunately, in
4 question. Is it correct to say that the lobby 4 this area, since it's low elevation, sometimes you
5 will not flood based on the better infrastructure 5 have tidal events that occur and, therefore,
6 that has to come from sewage when you build this? 6 that's where -- the 100-year flood elevation at 10
7 So even though the lobby is -- 7 is when you have a tidal event, and that's a
8 MR. WALKER: I would love to say that, 8 situation there where there's no stormwater
9 but knowing the realities of the climate change 9 solution to something. A big, major tidal event.
10 that we're living in, I don't think I can 10 And that's why we have flood-proofing
11 guarantee that with a straight face. The reality 11 measures. This project will be required to get
12 is that the lower-level lobby is designed for 12 NJDEP flood hazard approval for all the
13 access and needs to be ADA accessible and is 13 flood-proofing measures. And that's why we have
14 really intended to align with the sidewalk and 14 our finished floor 1 foot above the 100-year flood
15 street frontage. 15 elevation. So there's a whole State review
16 If the sidewalk floods, we will have a 16 process that we would go through if this project
17 flood-proofing plan related to it which may 17 was to receive approval as well.
18 consist of some secondary barriers that would be 18 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
19 installed based on a flooding event, but I can't 19 That was helpful.
20 say that it would not ever flood. That would be 20 With regard to the potential connection
21 unrealistic. 21 to the Jersey City MUA combined stormwater system,
22 COMMISSIONER VILARDO: Thank you. 22 if that system gets filled up in a storm event,
23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: And as I 23 where does the water go?
24 recall, that parking lot flooded and flooded badly 24 MR. BALLOU: It would respond as every
25 during Sandy. It's a taxicab parking lot and all 25 other place in the same scenario does. You know

Page 87 Page 89
1 the taxis, all their horns started honking at the 1 what I mean? This is not really going to change
2 same time. 2 the way the operations those systems do today.
3 MR. WALKER: Let me just highlight one 3 They'll function very, very well up to a certain
4 other thing about this. To be clear about it, we 4 limit or a tidal event, and then they will fail.
5 are putting in stormwater detention. We are 5 So this project won't influence or change that
6 installing a green roof. We are putting in 6 scenario that occurs.
7 mitigating factors that will certainly improve the 7 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: I guess
8 situation. But in a major storm event, it's 8 what I'm getting at is that you were positing that
9 difficult even with those mitigating factors. 9 it's great that we're able to connect to the
10 COMMISSIONER VILARDO: Understood. 10 Jersey City system, but since the Jersey City
11 Thank you. 11 system is combined, that means there's a higher
12 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: So I 12 likelihood that we'll be flooding Jersey City
13 actually have questions for Mr. Ballou while we're 13 instead of Hoboken, not that I don't love my
14 on the stormwater topic. So how much stormwater 14 neighbors in Hoboken.
15 retention capacity is proposed here and how does 15 MR. BALLOU: I understand.
16 it work and connect into the Jersey City combined 16 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: But I'd
17 system? 17 rather, you know, flood them than us.
18 MR. BALLOU: Understood. So we have a 18 MR. BALLOU: Understood. And also, too,
19 stormwater chamber system that's underneath that 19 Jersey City MUA is going through a plan now to
20 drive. So what is required in Jersey City 20 actually upgrade it, increase the capacity of
21 projects, we have to reduce down to the 2 year, 21 their system. I think the preliminary plans were
22 needs to be 50 percent less than the original, and 22 box culverts. So our design could be easily
23 then 75 and then 80 percent. 23 incorporated into that design to accommodate the
24 So the stormwater retention system is 24 additional runoff that it would receive, which
25 designed to meet flow reduction requirements for 25 would be a very insurmountable, very, very small,

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 Page 90 Page 92
1 insignificant amount of water compared to the 1 for any sump pumps or below-grade pumps. Again,
2 overall drainage. 2 this is an item that we would want to coordinate
3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. Very 3 with the other emergency systems in the building
4 good. 4 to make sure that it's aligned, but, yeah.
5 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I have a question 5 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Okay. Thank you.
6 for Mr. Ballou. First of all, I'd like to get a 6 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. So
7 lesson. I bought one of those fancy triangular -- 7 I'm actually thinking it might be advisable to
8 MR. BALLOU: Oh, the scale. 8 take a break before we move on to public
9 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: -- rulers because 9 questions. But just before we do so, if you
10 I thought it was cool, but I don't have any idea 10 wouldn't mind moving the plan for a second, I just
11 how you use it to find 70 feet and 50 feet. 11 want to get an approximate count of hands.
12 MR. BALLOU: There's a lot of numbers 12 How many people in the public will have
13 out here. 13 questions for some of the experts? Okay.
14 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I use it for the 14 And how many people will have comments
15 12 inches. 15 to enter into the record on the project? Okay.
16 Is there a plan -- I didn't look at all 16 All right. Very good. So by my watch,
17 the little details -- to have a generator in this 17 I have it's now 8:42. Let's take a ten-minute
18 building? 18 break and get back here at 8:52 and then we'll get
19 MR. BALLOU: As the site engineer, I 19 started.
20 didn't do that type of design. That would be more 20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
21 the architect, in regards to the generation. 21 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: All right.
22 MR. WALKER: In terms of emergency 22 Thanks, everybody. We're ready to resume. As I
23 generator, the only emergency generator that would 23 mentioned before, the next plan of action is to
24 be required would be related to the fire life 24 have questions from the public. After that, we
25 safety systems in the building -- 25 will hear from City staff, and then after that,

Page 91 Page 93
1 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I didn't ask for 1 we'll be able to put public comments on the
2 requirement. I said, is there a plan to have a 2 record. Okay?
3 generator for when the power goes out and stuff 3 So if you would, come up to the podium
4 like that to run the elevator? 4 if you have questions. Please provide your name
5 MR. WALKER: So under the building code 5 and your address and we'll get started. State
6 for high-rise, which is what we would fall under, 6 your name, address, and spell your name, please.
7 there is a requirement to have an emergency 7 MR. GREGORIO: John Gregorio,
8 generator as it relates to fire life safety 8 G-R-E-G-O-R-I-O, 107 Jackson Street, Hoboken, New
9 systems. And so we would be providing that as 9 Jersey.
10 part of the overall building design. It would be 10 Something that was brought up, and I am
11 probably roof mounted. And, again, this is an 11 not an expert on traffic, but the study was from
12 item that would be integrated in with the 12 2011 that I believe the gentleman was talking
13 automatic fire alarm system, as well as with the 13 about.
14 sprinkler system and any related pumps, and the 14 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: So is this
15 elevator system. 15 a question for the traffic engineer?
16 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Would that 16 MR. GREGORIO: Yes.
17 generator run at least one elevator? 17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay.
18 MR. WALKER: Oh, absolutely. 18 MR. GREGORIO: And my question is --
19 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Okay. And is 19 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Mr. DiSario
20 there a possibility to build in, connected to the 20 , if you would like to come up.
21 generator or some other mechanism, a pumping 21 MR. GREGORIO: I've been living there on
22 situation so if the building begins to flood, 22 Jackson Street since 1999.
23 instead of just waiting for the water to drain 23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Here he is.
24 out, you could actually actively pump it out? 24 MR. GREGORIO: And I have seen, in the
25 MR. WALKER: There is that possibility 25 last ten years, the traffic getting much, much,

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 Page 94
1 much heavier than 2011. So to base something on
2 a -- is it fair to base something on a 2011
3 traffic study, which is a general study, from what
4 I understand, and not base it on the traffic that
5 would actually be there?
6 The other point for the traffic thing is
7 Harrison Street is a very narrow, one-way street.
8 As you leave this building through that parking
9 garage, you can only make a right turn. You're
10 going to have to go under the little zigzag of the
11 trestle and into Jersey City. To return, you have
12 to come back through some other means, underneath
13 another trestle, go into Hoboken, use the Hoboken
14 streets, which are already congested at that
15 point, to get to the building.
16 And from what I can see, unless you're
17 on a Hoboken street, there physically is no way to
18 get to that building without using Hoboken
19 streets.
20 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay.
21 Mr. DiSario.
22 MR. DiSARIO: I'm not sure there was a
23 question there.
24 MR. LaPAGLIA: The first question to ask
25 is, is it fair to use a study from 2007 for today?
Page 95
1 MR. GREGORIO: 2011.
2 MR. DiSARIO: Let me clarify. I
3 misspoke. What I was referring to was counts that
4 were done at the Hoboken Business Center in 2015.
5 And those counts identified how much traffic comes
6 into and out of the parking lot and driveways that
7 serve the Hoboken Business Center.
8 So that's what I was putting on the
9 record in terms of just giving the Board and the
10 public an understanding of the magnitude of
11 traffic that the Hoboken Business Center generated
12 currently based on those 2015 counts. And they're
13 kind of similar, they are similar, to what this
14 proposed residential building would generate.
15 And the reason why I was doing that was
16 to give you some context.
17 I don't dispute -- with all due respect
18 to the public and to this gentleman, I understand
19 there's traffic in the area. I absolutely
20 understand that and I know what you go through on
21 a daily basis, particularly living on Jackson
22 Street. So I completely get it.
23 But I would respectfully submit to you
24 that if you're driving down Observer past the
25 Hoboken Business Center, which has a driveway on
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Page 96
1 Observer, if you're driving down Harrison Street,
2 which also the Hoboken Business Center has a
3 driveway on Harrison Street, I would respectfully
4 submit to you that I don't think most drivers are
5 getting apprehensive when they come to the
6 driveways of the Hoboken Business Center. You
7 rarely see anybody coming into and out of those
8 driveways, particularly during peak hours.
9 And I was drawing that comparison to
10 give you some context that this proposed
11 residential building is going to generate about
12 the same amount of traffic as the Hoboken Business
13 Center does currently.
14 So to answer your question, yes, I think
15 it is reliable to cite traffic counts that were
16 done specifically for the Hoboken Business Center
17 to quantify how much traffic that office building
18 generates currently and draw a comparison to the
19 proposal before the Board this evening.
20 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: While
21 you're up here, I just thought of another
22 question.
23 MR. DiSARIO: Sure.
24 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Right now
25 on Harrison Street, sometimes it's two lanes,
Page 97
1 sometimes it's one lane. And where Cal's Hot Dog
2 stand is, you can now turn directly onto Hoboken
3 Avenue/Observer Highway. You no longer have to
4 yield.
5 How is this current design -- is that
6 going to impact the driver's ability to do that?
7 MR. DiSARIO: You heard from the site
8 engineer. In terms of the driveway for this
9 project, it's situated completely in Jersey City.
10 Your review engineer, City engineer, had some
11 comments with respect to the driveway geometry,
12 which our engineer has put on the record that we
13 will work with your engineer to address those
14 concerns.
15 In my professional opinion, I think the
16 proposed driveway to serve this residential
17 building is going to adequately serve the traffic
18 coming in and out of the residential building and
19 not create any issues with respect to people
20 traveling on Harrison Street.
21 I think, and I don't want to
22 pontificate, but I'll just point something out
23 because I take a little different perspective from
24 most traffic engineers. Most traffic engineers
25 are going to stand up here and their sole purpose
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
 Page 98
1 is to move traffic. I don't really buy into that.
2 This area, it's an urban area. It's an
3 area that has a lot of traffic because it's unique
4 in terms of how most residents in the Heights, if
5 they want to get to the turnpike, they're coming
6 down to this area and using Harrison Street to get
7 to the turnpike. Totally recognize that and agree
8 to that.
9 But by the same token, this is a
10 residential area. It's redeveloping into a
11 residential area. There is now an importance put
12 on pedestrians. There's a park right across the
13 street. There's an importance put onto
14 bicyclists. And I think, given the context of the
15 area, streets should be really given back to
16 pedestrians and bicyclists with vehicular traffic
17 taking a lower position in terms of the hierarchy
18 of the different users of the roadway system.
19 So when a road is narrow, people drive
20 more slowly. When a road has parking on one or
21 both sides of it, people drive more slowly. You
22 remove on-site parking, you make wider roads,
23 people will drive faster because their comfort
24 level increases.
25 So I am totally in support of narrower
Page 100
1 on any on-street parking in the area.
2 And I know you have other projects
3 further south. You know about Hoboken Avenue, you
4 know people are parking on those streets contrary
5 to what may have been testified to as part of
6 those original approvals for those developments.
7 So that's really what was driving it.
8 It's architectural in terms of trying to get the
9 residents above the rail line, but, more
10 importantly, it's to do as much as we can to not
11 have any traffic or residents or customers for the
12 retail associated with this project having to park
13 on the street.
14 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. DiSARIO: You're welcome.
17 MR. GREGORIO: Can I just bring up
18 something? Because somebody brought it up. I was
19 involved in --
20 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. Just
21 to be clear, this is the question portion. Then
22 we're going to have a comment portion.
23 MR. GREGORIO: The study he mentioned
24 about the Hoboken Business Center involved the
25 possible use of a paper road, which is an

Page 99 Page 101

1 streets, wider sidewalks, pedestrian
2 accommodations. And I think the thinking, at
3 least in my industry, is not there yet. It's
4 getting there. But urban context, I'm about
5 pedestrians and bicyclists and alternative modes
6 to cars. And, yes, if you have to drive slowly
7 and your turning delays through this area, I think
8 that's a good thing given the nature and the
9 character of the overall area.
10 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: But that
11 said, this plan includes a gigantic parking lot
12 with more cars than are required and that kind of
13 flies in the face of kind of this urban living
14 dream.
15 MR. DiSARIO: So it's really two things
16 that are driving the parking. And you've heard
17 from the architect in terms of how it relates to
18 transit line and elevation.
19 You have ground-floor retail. Trying to
20 get the residential above the transit. So from an
21 architectural perspective, you've heard his part.
22 We were taking a different perspective
23 on the parking. As you heard from the planner,
24 it's a minimum standard, but we want to provide
25 enough parking so there is absolutely no reliance
1 extension of Marshall Street, which does not
2 belong to anyone that I know of, but
3 Mr. Dell'Aquila has said he has not paid taxes on.
4 And that was the second entrance to his property
5 and he made a big deal of it at the time that he
6 needed that so that the child nursery school in
7 his building could get it. Without that road,
8 there is only one entrance for cars to enter this
9 property and that's midsection of Harrison Street.
10 When you get to under the trestle, it's
11 not a choice of whether you can make a right or a
12 left.
13 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Right.
14 MR. GREGORIO: You have to make a right.
15 That's all.
16 MR. RANS: I have some questions for
17 this gentleman as well.
18 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. And
19 just state your name for the record, spell it, and
20 provide your address, please.
21 MR. RANS: My name is Brian Rans. I
22 live on 169 New York Avenue, Jersey City, New
23 Jersey 07307.
24 So during your testimony and during this
25 time period, you cited some statistics that are --

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 Page 102 Page 104
1 I forget exactly what the title is, Institute of 1 it's going to incorporate the retail and also the
2 Transportation Engineers. 2 people in the Hoboken Business Center, correct?
3 Are you familiar with the data that's 3 MR. DiSARIO: The data that I've cited
4 comprised in that study? 4 is to estimate how much traffic this apartment
5 MR. DiSARIO: Yes. 5 building would generate. It had nothing to do
6 MR. RANS: Can you specifically tell us 6 with parking.
7 what jurisdiction is the data represented in that 7 MR. RANS: But the traffic is generated
8 study? 8 by people who park their cars in the building and
9 MR. DiSARIO: It's a collection of data 9 the prediction from your data set specifies people
10 across the country. 10 leaving and entering the project. So in my
11 MR. RANS: So are you testifying that 11 opinion, I'm not a statistician, I'm not an
12 you don't know the specific cities that that data 12 expert, but based upon my opinion, I don't think
13 comes from? 13 your data set is an accurate depiction of what the
14 MR. DiSario: Off the top of my head, 14 current circumstance in Jersey City at that
15 no. 15 location is because it doesn't take into
16 MR. RANS: Because wouldn't it be fair 16 consideration, one, the geographic limitations of
17 to say that Des Moines, Iowa is much different 17 the streets here in Jersey City and then, B, it
18 than Jersey City and Hoboken, New Jersey, correct? 18 doesn't consider other people who might be using
19 MR. DiSARIO: I can't answer that 19 the parking such as people in the community and
20 question. I don't know. 20 also people going to the retail store.
21 MR. RANS: Based upon your testimony, do 21 So based upon that, could you argue,
22 you know exactly who will be using the parking 22 then, that your data set is not an accurate
23 spaces? 23 depiction for the legal conclusion that you made?
24 MR. DiSARIO: No. 24 MR. DiSARIO: We, as traffic engineers,
25 MR. RANS: Can you anticipate that 25 are charged with estimating traffic on published
Page 103 Page 105
1 people from the retail store -- I think testimony 1 trip rates. Those published trip rates encompass
2 was solicited that employees from the business, 2 high-rise residential buildings. I applied that
3 people from the Hoboken Business Center, and also 3 data to estimate how much traffic's going to be
4 residents of the building will be using the 4 generated by this project.
5 parking. 5 Traffic generation and parking demand
6 Do you believe or do you know if the 6 are two separate and distinct things. So I've set
7 municipalities that generated this data to make 7 forth on the record how much traffic I believe,
8 that recommendation considered retail and other 8 based on the published data, this project is going
9 businesses in the area using that parking? 9 to generate.
10 MR. DiSARIO: I'm not sure what your 10 MR. RANS: And kind of back to what some
11 question is, but if you are asking who's going to 11 of the commissioners were questioning about, you
12 use the parking in the building, everyone that you 12 said this project is smart growth because it's
13 cited is a possibility. Most probably the 13 close to public transportation, correct?
14 residents, maybe some of the retail. It's going 14 MR. DiSARIO: Yes.
15 to depend on exactly who that retailer is, if they 15 MR. RANS: And this goes to the question
16 have any parking demand. 16 that was actually posed by the commissioners. How
17 All I can tell you is with respect to 17 can you expect a project to be considered smart
18 what's required, we meet the minimum parking 18 growth if it incorporates three decks of parking,
19 requirement and we're actually providing more than 19 some of which includes up to, I think, 70 parking
20 what's required. 20 spots that's more than what's required under the
21 MR. RANS: But my question goes to the 21 zone?
22 specific data. You relied upon a data set and you 22 MR. DiSARIO: Smart growth doesn't speak
23 said it was based upon a 161-apartment building, 23 to parking. Smart growth speaks to developing, in
24 but you just testified that the parking is not 24 particular in urban areas, where mass transit's
25 going to just incorporate the 161 apartment units, 25 available, as dense a residential development that

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 Page 106 Page 108
1 you can do. Because it doesn't make sense to 1 additional 70 units is extremely insignificant and
2 build a bunch of residential units out in western 2 you would not be able to discern any noticeable
3 New Jersey, like in Parsippany, where everyone has 3 changes in traffic operations in that immediate
4 to rely on a car to get to and from work. 4 area because of those additional 70 units.
5 So smart growth recognizes that our 5 So that's why, in my estimation, there
6 urban centers, and Jersey City/Hoboken are 6 was no need to go and do traffic counts and
7 certainly recognized as urban centers, have an 7 identify levels of service and delays. Because
8 abundance of mass transit and smart growth tenets 8 the amount of traffic we're talking about doesn't
9 that basically dictate that's where residential 9 rise to a significant impact by any measure.
10 development should occur. 10 MR. WEISSMAN: Just the follow-up on
11 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. You 11 that, I would just say that you can't really
12 do need to wrap it up. 12 understand impact unless you know what the current
13 MR. RANS: I have no further questions. 13 conditions are. That's basic, so...
14 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Any further 14 MR. DiSARIO: Do you want me to respond?
15 questions? 15 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: You can
16 MR. WEISSMAN: One. 16 respond if you like. You don't have to.
17 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Again, 17 MR. DiSARIO: Not to be argumentative,
18 state your name. 18 but the total 161 units is going to generate about
19 MR. WEISSMAN: Kern Weissman, 576 19 one additional trip in or out of this property
20 Palisade Avenue, Jersey City. 20 every minute. A little less than that. So,
21 So my question for the traffic engineer 21 again, adding one additional trip to that area, I
22 is, why didn't -- when doing the study, right, why 22 would respectfully submit you're not going to
23 didn't you actually take actual trip counts? 23 discern any noticeable changes in traffic
24 The reason I'm asking that is there was 24 operations.
25 a very close by traffic study that was done at 39 25 I'd liken it, again, back to the fact

Page 107 Page 109

1 New York Avenue, which is also in the R-3. So I 1 that the existing Hoboken Business Center, when
2 was very surprised -- I was somewhat surprised 2 you drive by, whether it's along Observer or
3 that when 39 New York did their traffic study, 3 Harrison, I don't think you notice a lot of
4 they actually had people counting trips, you know, 4 traffic coming in and out of there. And certainly
5 seeing who was going up, who was going down, who 5 I've been out there most recently this evening
6 was coming out, who was going in. But your study 6 watching traffic. You barely see anybody coming
7 didn't reference any actual observed data. I'm 7 in and out and that's how it's going to be for
8 curious as to why not. 8 this proposed residential development.
9 MR. DiSARIO: Because in my estimation, 9 Thank you.
10 based on the trip estimates that I've put forth to 10 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: All right.
11 the Board, this project doesn't rise to the level 11 Tanya, we were just discussing whether it's more
12 of creating a significant impact to the area. The 12 appropriate to do public comment before we do
13 DOT recognizes that any land use that generates 13 yours. However, I tend to think everybody should
14 less than 100 peak-hour trips has an insignificant 14 have the benefit of hearing from the city planner
15 traffic impact. 15 before we proceed with public comments.
16 And really, as I testified to earlier, 16 What makes the most sense to you?
17 this property is recognized by your zoning to 17 MS. MARIONE: We've always done it that
18 permit residential lots. We're really only 18 I'm the last person.
19 talking about the differential between what's 19 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay.
20 permitted, which is 91 units, and what the 20 MS. MARIONE: There's not going to be a
21 applicant is proposing, which is an additional 70 21 vote tonight. Maybe we could just hold off until
22 units. If you look at that incremental difference 22 there's a vote.
23 in traffic attributed to the 70 units, I would, 23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay.
24 again, respectfully submit to you that the amount 24 We'll hold off on your testimony until there's a
25 of traffic that would be generated by those 25 vote.

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 Page 110
1 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: I would like to
2 make a comment on the question about traffic.
3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Sure.
4 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: Mr. Rans is
5 completely correct. The average is the most
6 overused and actually the worst statistic ever
7 invented. And I did live in the Midwest and I've
8 been through Iowa. It's mostly cornfields, so I
9 assume there are some cities there in between
10 cornfields. But that's the professional standards
11 that traffic engineers work by.
12 They're virtually meaningless because my
13 building is different than your building, my
14 neighborhood is different, West Side Avenue, where
15 I live, most of the day you can travel pretty
16 well, but don't travel at 7:30 to 8:30 in the
17 morning because it's at a standstill. It has
18 nothing to do with my cars coming in and out of
19 our driveway.
20 But that's the professional standards
21 and until they change the professional standards,
22 and I don't know if they have urban versus this or
23 that. So you're absolutely correct, but that's
24 the standard.
25 In regard to what Kern said, it's very
Page 111
1 hard to estimate the impact of a building when the
2 building doesn't exist. You can draw inferences,
3 which I assume that the professionals do, from
4 similar buildings, you know, as close a syllogism
5 as you can get. But beyond that, you know, I
6 don't know what to say.
7 But obviously a building's going to have
8 an impact on traffic and it's a matter of this and
9 that and the other thing. And I do know, from
10 having traveled to Hoboken, because I come up that
11 route that comes under the overpasses through
12 Jersey City, I think if you get back to Jackson
13 Avenue at the wrong time of day, it's just a hot
14 mess. It's just a hot mess.
15 And a lot of people use -- they don't
16 want to go to Washington Street and they don't
17 want to go to the Plank, and they use these
18 one-way streets going north and south to get
19 through, which is what I do, because you go on
20 Washington, it's going to take you forever. But
21 that's just the way it is.
22 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Yeah.
23 BOARD MEMBER ROTHMAN: But obviously
24 this building is going to have an impact on
25 traffic and, you know, that's the professionals --
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Page 112
1 their standard is to use these statistics and
2 that's the way it is. But you're absolutely
3 correct. I mean, every building is unique, every
4 city is unique, different parts of Hoboken are
5 unique, and I'm glad you all pointed that out.
6 Thank you.
7 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Very good.
8 So now we're actually going to change
9 from the game plan that I had proposed before. We
10 are going to not hear from City staff. We are
11 going to have public comment.
12 Before we begin, some ground rules.
13 Please try to be direct and concise and limit your
14 comments to three minutes. It's also perfectly
15 acceptable, and, in fact, loved by the
16 commissioners, if you try to shorten things and
17 say I agree with exactly what so-and-so said.
18 That means just as much to us on the record. And,
19 indeed, since we only have five commissioners and
20 we're not going to be voting on this tonight, when
21 the commissioners resume, they will see that when
22 they read the transcripts and understand them.
23 Before we begin, let me just get a feel
24 for how many people would like to put comments
25 into the record. Hands up, please. Okay. So we
Page 113
1 have about ten.
2 And how many, just in general, are in
3 favor of the project? If you're in favor of the
4 project, the application, raise your hand. Four.
5 Very good.
6 Okay. I think we're ready to proceed.
7 Commissioner Shedeed is going to help me out by
8 being timekeeper extraordinaire. We will give you
9 a --
10 BOARD MEMBER SHEDEED: When the time is
11 two minutes, I will put up my finger. That's one
12 minute left.
13 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Okay. So,
14 again, he will give you the one-minute-left
15 signal. So we're ready to proceed now.
16 K E R N W E I S S M A N, 576
17 Palisade Avenue, Jersey City, New Jersey, having
18 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
19 follows:
20 MR. WEISSMAN: So I'll try to be brief
21 and I'll try not to mention things that I know
22 other people are going to mention.
23 So the first thing I just want to say is
24 that the developer, my understanding is they met
25 with planning and the mayor and had some
29 (Pages 110 to 113)
 Page 114
1 discussions. They approached RNA after those
2 discussions with this project that was, you know,
3 13 stories. They did meet with us, absolutely.
4 They met with our depth committee. We also
5 exchanged some e-mails, provided them some
6 pictures from the Heights. So they absolutely
7 have been in communication. We appreciate that.
8 They even made some adjustment. I think the
9 original height was, like, 160 and now it's down
10 to 150.
11 So the RNA board, this happened -- it's
12 a unique area here because it's outside of the
13 PPOD. It's just outside. It's also just outside
14 of our boundaries. I think it was probably a
15 mistake when they were doing the PPOD and our
16 boundaries probably should have been looped in
17 there.
18 But basically, I'm representing the
19 board tonight. We took a board vote. The board
20 is voting to oppose this project. And I want to
21 just bring up some points here.
22 So the first point is that you'll notice
23 that they didn't plot the pictures that I had
24 provided them this week that were showing it
25 closer to south of Franklin. So those pictures
Page 115
1 were between -- more closer to Griffith. So that
2 was -- I'd like to see those before we -- because
3 it really does have an impact. It's only about 10
4 or 15 feet lower than the SkyClub building.
5 The other thing I want to point out is
6 it's deeply ironic and offensive to use an
7 illegally built building to basically take
8 something that was completely illegally built and
9 use that as a reason to approve this project. As
10 an RNA member, as an RNA president, I really can't
11 stomach that.
12 BOARD MEMBER SHEDEED: One minute.
13 MR. WEISSMAN: Okay. And then I would
14 also like to say that the park that's being
15 represented there, that's not a park. It's owned
16 by New Jersey Transit. I don't know if the
17 agreement is to make that a park yet. The full
18 renderings were not provided to us.
19 But the biggest issue here is that the
20 height and density are just too much. So the
21 reason the board voted against it, even though
22 they have committed to contributing $200,000 or a
23 contribution to the Affordable Housing Trust Fund,
24 is that the height is still 150 feet. The zone is
25 85 feet. It's a little bit lower than the
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Page 116
1 SkyClub, but basically you're dealing with
2 something that's almost twice the permitted height
3 in the zone.
4 So you have a situation where it's
5 simply still too massive.
6 I want to get on the record that we did
7 ask for a reduction of stories, reduction of
8 parking because we feel there's too much parking
9 in the building, and those were denied. So we're
10 at a situation here where we're at an impasse.
11 Therefore, the board has to -- we voted and are
12 opposing the project.
13 And I also just want to, you know, make
14 the point that it is very, very critical to look
15 at the impacts of traffic, not just for the
16 residential, but also for the businesses, and if
17 there's going to be a large restaurant, how many
18 people are going to be coming in and out of the
19 business.
20 So, again, the RNA board is voting
21 against this project in its current form and we
22 encourage you to deny the application.
23 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
24 MR. VERDIBELLO: If I could just rebut a
25 couple of points that I think should be on the
Page 117
1 record. First of all, I'm not aware of any
2 additional pictures that the RNA had supplied us
3 this week. Obviously if there are additional
4 pictures, we do welcome those. We did plot the
5 pictures that were provided and we will do so for
6 any future pictures, but there were no pictures
7 that I'm aware of that were provided this week.
8 So we're more than willing to do that.
9 As far as the park, we're not referring
10 to the New Jersey Transit detention basin as a
11 park. There is the Hoboken Southwest Resiliency
12 Park that has been completed that's in the
13 vicinity. If there were any references to parks,
14 that's what the reference was made to, not to New
15 Jersey Transit. So I don't want the record to
16 reflect that we made any type of misrepresentation
17 when, in fact, we did not.
18 Renderings were, in fact, provided to
19 RNA this week. We did mark some additional photos
20 as exhibits, which is standard for these types of
21 presentations, but we did provide the current
22 correct -- after we met with planning and made
23 some technical corrections as directed by planning
24 staff, those were supplied this week.
25 So I just want the record to be clear on
30 (Pages 114 to 117)
 Page 118 Page 120
1 that. Thank you. 1 Van Leer area. It's not going to be really
2 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you, 2 impacting.
3 Mr. Verdibello. 3 If it's lower than the Palisades, I
4 A N T H O N Y S O A R E S, Hoboken, 4 think that's a good thing. I was on the City
5 New Jersey, having been duly sworn, was examined 5 Council when we approved the SkyClub, so I'm very
6 and testified as follows: 6 familiar with the impact that that brought to the
7 MR. SOARES: I'm former Zoning Board 7 Palisades and also what happened up north. I
8 chairman in Hoboken. I'm very familiar with all 8 would agree that this shouldn't be breaking up the
9 the zoning that happened on the Jersey City side 9 Palisades and I don't believe this does because
10 of Hoboken. I believe we were never noticed for 10 it's not that close to the Palisades.
11 any of it. 11 I think it's a good project for both
12 But I would say that I happen to like 12 cities. We interact with each other. I think we
13 the design of the building. I think it's the 13 have to respect each other whether it's coming,
14 right scale. I live two blocks away. I live 14 you know -- but as a neighbor who lives very close
15 closer to this building than anyone else in this 15 to this project, I think it's a good -- the impact
16 room. I live at the Skyline on Observer Highway. 16 I welcome, which the negative -- I don't really
17 I think it's a good project. I looked 17 expect the flooding to happen to Hoboken because
18 at it and I see what's going on in the 18 we have a pretty good resiliency program already
19 neighborhood. And in Hoboken, we absorb 100 19 started. So if they follow those guidelines, I
20 percent of the impact from all the Jersey City 20 think we're in good shape.
21 development that's happening. Cast Iron, 700 21 Thank you very much.
22 Grove are essentially people living in Hoboken. 22 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
23 We get their shuttle vans, we get their business, 23 Ten seconds to spare.
24 and they all come here. Jersey City gets 100 24 S H A N N O N P E N N O C K, 299
25 percent of the pilot money. 25 Pavonia Avenue, Jersey City, New Jersey, having

Page 119 Page 121

1 So this is a great project for you
2 because you're going to make all the money and
3 we're going to have the people in this building
4 using our parks and our charter schools. And so I
5 think it's a good thing in that regard.
6 I understand we're asking for more
7 parking, but at the same time, you can't be
8 saying, well, there's not enough parking, but wait
9 a minute, there's too much parking, because it's
10 going to bring too many cars.
11 I think it's next to a business center
12 and if you see what's happening in Northern
13 California, they're not building enough housing
14 where they've been building all these corporations
15 out there. So the rents go through the roof in
16 Northern California. So smart growth or smart
17 development also means residential near where you
18 work, not just residential spreading out.
19 So hopefully, when there's more office
20 buildings, and we've seen the Hoboken master plan,
21 that whole area is commercial development, a
22 little bit of residential, but there's still light
23 industrial, there's an incubator. And that's all
24 hooked up. Most of the residential that's
25 happening is happening with the Cast Iron and the
1 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
2 follows:
3 MS. PENNOCK: Good evening. Thank you
4 all for being here. This is true public service.
5 We appreciate it.
6 I am a resident of Hamilton Park. I'm
7 also the president of the Hamilton Park
8 Neighborhood Association. We received the plans
9 yesterday on this development. We're highly
10 interested in development that goes on in this
11 district and in this area in particular because it
12 directly impacts the traffic that we're beginning
13 to see flowing into the Hamilton Park area.
14 We also were involved with a lot of
15 discussions that went into the Emerson
16 Redevelopment Plan and also the development --
17 with discussions with developers from Cast Iron
18 Lofts.
19 Our development board voted today to
20 object to the plan based on several concerns that
21 we have regarding traffic and the lack of any sort
22 of provision of green space and the additional
23 burden that it's going to pose on Jersey City
24 infrastructure.
25 We haven't had a full -- probably time

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 Page 122
1 to adequately look at the plan itself, but just
2 looking at the traffic itself, the Langan report
3 expressly states that the data was rather limited.
4 It was already alluded to by the commissioners
5 here. It is outdated and probably not
6 representative at all of the very unique situation
7 that goes on at Harrison and Hoboken Avenue, which
8 is obviously a hot mess, as was described earlier.
9 I drive that every day to drop off kids, and
10 certainly it has its unique, you know, problems
11 posed for both pedestrians, bicyclists, and also
12 vehicles.
13 I don't think that there's enough data
14 to ascertain at this point whether or not this
15 level of density and traffic is warranted if we're
16 going to allow this sort of variance.
17 With regard to the site's access point,
18 I think the access point is troublesome and I
19 think that that is going to compound the traffic
20 problems that we have.
21 Another question that we have here for
22 the Board is, why is this one building being
23 crammed onto this one sliver on this 4-acre site
24 and why isn't it being treated holistically and
25 one plan being brought before both zoning boards
Page 123
1 of Hoboken and Jersey City?
2 And our final problem with the plan is
3 we see no allocation of green space. Green space
4 is desperately needed in that area.
5 That's all the comments I have. Thank
6 you very much.
7 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Great.
8 Thank you.
9 M A R Y M I L L S, 9 Sherman Place,
10 Jersey City, New Jersey, having been duly sworn,
11 was examined and testified as follows:
12 MS. MILLS: Okay. I've made a study --
13 I've been going to the Rebuild By Design meetings
14 and I made a study over the past two years of the
15 sewer system there in the whole town. We have
16 28 -- we had, at one time, 28 permitted sewer
17 overflow points. That's a lot. And we now have
18 21. But it's because we've expanded the capacity
19 of the current -- of many of the current permitted
20 sewer overflow, the size of them.
21 The main -- all of the sewage coming out
22 of the Heights, west and east side, peels off
23 around Pershing Field and begins a journey in the
24 main pipe down the hill, gravity fed, down to
25 Hoboken. That is an enormous amount of sewage.
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Page 124
1 The west side begins to have a separate line that
2 takes care of the whole west side.
3 This is the main permitted sewer
4 overflow site. It was designed to empty into the
5 long slip there, which you see it's about -- it
6 comes up quite a ways. It's about at the Target,
7 by the Target store.
8 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Right.
9 MS. MILLS: It's a million square feet
10 of water. It's supposed to empty there. But, of
11 course, it doesn't empty if you have a big storm
12 or a burst, a big burst, because it won't come out
13 into the river until the next day, when the whole
14 amount has gone down, because it's covered, the
15 hole. It can only come down when the whole water
16 level has gone down. So it's stuck coming up
17 through the sewer grates and on Marin Boulevard.
18 So my concern is, has the developer
19 looked at the map and what the City will have to
20 build to accommodate? That's more sewage than we
21 can accommodate now. I think this is a question
22 really for City officials. How can we develop in
23 that area without retention? That park is meant
24 to hold a million -- a million gallons of water.
25 It does. That's about 30 minutes in a 1-inch
Page 125
1 rain.
2 Thank you.
3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you
4 very much.
5 M I C H A E L D E F U S C O, 133 Park
6 Avenue, Hoboken, New Jersey, having been duly
7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
8 MR. DEFUSCO: Ladies and gentlemen of
9 the Board, I thank you for a late night. I myself
10 am a city councilman, so I'm accustomed to many
11 late nights in Hoboken. I myself sat on the
12 Zoning Board in Hoboken for five years, so I'm
13 certainly accustomed to a number of the issues
14 that you're considering tonight. I chair the
15 Hoboken Southwest Redevelopment Committee. I also
16 chair the Hoboken Zoning Committee. So I thank
17 you for your questioning. I thank you for your
18 attention to this issue.
19 Because as one of my neighbors, Tony
20 Soares, a former councilman, also says, this
21 project impacts Hoboken. It impacts Hoboken more
22 than it does Hamilton Park, it impacts Hoboken
23 more than it impacts the Heights. Everybody's
24 questions here are good and everybody's concerns
25 are valid. And I think what we need to understand
32 (Pages 122 to 125)
 Page 126
1 here, and I know you do, is that there are both
2 impacts that are both positive and negative.
3 The negative impacts are going to be
4 there with an eight-story building that is 92
5 units. That is a large building. But the impacts
6 that are going to be created from a larger
7 building, are they offset by the positive
8 benefits? What are the positive benefits to
9 Hoboken? What are the positive benefits to our
10 connectivity as two cities are unique, very
11 unique.
12 And this is an opportunity for our two
13 cities to finally connect together and find a way
14 where pedestrians can cross along safely, where we
15 can create a parking intercept for cars to stop
16 before they get into Hoboken, into our historic
17 heart, and park on the outskirts of our town.
18 Parking is certainly something that we
19 need to consider in Hoboken. We are at a loss
20 here. And although this isn't your jurisdiction
21 in Jersey City, it is actually an opportunity for
22 us to help with the parking crunch that we're
23 experiencing. As a matter of fact, I would not
24 want to see this project go forward without the
25 parking variance being requested.
Page 127
1 I think that the community benefit of
2 opening up the pathway is really important. And I
3 wanted to share an e-mail that I received from a
4 constituent just the other day that I thought is
5 important.
6 COMMISSIONER SHEDEED: One minute.
7 MR. DEFUSCO: "I have a question, but I
8 think I may be directing it towards the wrong
9 town. Who's in charge of maintaining the Paterson
10 Avenue PATH, Hoboken or Jersey City? I run on it
11 fairly often and it's in such poor shape, lack of
12 lighting, litter everywhere. I will literally see
13 the same garbage for months. Again, this might be
14 Jersey City's domain, but I think the PATH can
15 certainly benefit from being repaved and fitted
16 with safety features."
17 This is an opportunity to reclaim that
18 path, to create connectivity. This is an
19 opportunity for us to connect our two cities. And
20 this is an opportunity for us to actually create
21 density in a part of town, part of your town and,
22 you know, on the border of our town, that actually
23 makes sense.
24 So they're not easy questions that
25 you're being asked to make tonight, but as the
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Page 128
1 Chair of the southern development subcommittee, I
2 can tell you that our redevelopment plan for the
3 southwest calls for parking in the adjacent lot.
4 And although the developer, for some reason, is
5 not coming to us for this variance, he's coming to
6 you and I urge you to consider this application,
7 continue to ask great questions, and then
8 hopefully you'll vote for it.
9 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen of the
10 Board.
11 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
12 D R. L A U R A B R A Y T O N, 300
13 Coles Street, Apartment 907, Jersey City, New
14 Jersey, having been duly sworn, was examined and
15 testified as follows:
16 DR. BRAYTON: Yes, hi. So I have a
17 unique position because I've been a tenant of the
18 Hoboken Business Center for 13 years with my
19 chiropractic practice. I've driven there, in and
20 out of the parking lot for 13 years. Have never
21 seen issues with cars lining up, being able to get
22 in and out.
23 And now I'm a Jersey City resident five
24 minutes from the Hoboken Business Center. Since
25 July, I am taking advantage of the walk to go to
Page 129
1 my office. And what I've seen, now that the light
2 is getting darker earlier, it's actually kind of a
3 little scary as a woman to walk under that trestle
4 in the evening, 7, 8 o'clock at night.
5 And so there's definitely -- I'm excited
6 about this project and the opportunity to bring a
7 nicer pedestrian flow to that area that's kind of
8 dingy, dark, and doesn't feel very safe for
9 somebody walking home from work.
10 And that's all I have. Thank you.
11 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
12 J E N N I F E R A R A N E O, 837
13 Jersey Avenue, 18B, Jersey City, New Jersey,
14 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified
15 as follows:
16 MS. ARANEO: I do live in Cast Iron
17 Lofts. So we've lived there for five years. We
18 do take advantage of Hoboken. It's safer for me
19 to walk my kids from Cast Iron to Hoboken Academy,
20 which is on 7th and Madison, than it is for me to
21 walk into Hamilton Park or to drive into Hamilton
22 Park.
23 So we take that walk, like, every
24 morning. There's a school bus during that walk.
25 I'm sure you know there's homeless people that
33 (Pages 126 to 129)
 Page 130 Page 132
1 live under that trestle. There's one guy, now 1 from NJ Transit to create this.
2 there's two men. And, you know, they use that as 2 So some of the benefits they're asking
3 bathroom facilities, et cetera. 3 you to take into consideration aren't concrete,
4 I walk my three children through that 4 they're not specific, they're not formalized. And
5 area to get into Hoboken. And it would be great 5 I think you have to consider that when granting
6 if we could make that a lot nicer and safer. And 6 this large variance.
7 I feel like this building, being that it would 7 As Kern said, they're increasing the
8 open up that space and cause more pedestrian 8 height by almost 80 feet and adding five stories.
9 traffic, it would be safer. 9 That is not just a small deviation from a zoning
10 I have an 11-year-old son who can walk 10 ordinance that our City Council passed with the
11 from 7th and Madison to the Hoboken train station 11 recommendation of the Zoning Board, but it's
12 and take the shuttle home versus going under the 12 blasting past it.
13 train trestle and trying to cross 18th Street and 13 And I find it really funny that when you
14 Jersey Avenue. Because that is a nightmare and I 14 meet with developers, they always say "This
15 know that's not for this meeting. 15 project will not have precedent, so don't worry
16 So for me, I am very pro this project 16 about that." However, they point to other cases
17 because I feel like it would make it safer for me 17 that are a similar height and substance when
18 and my children. 18 advocating for their projects.
19 So thank you for listening to me 19 We can't let them have that double
20 tonight. 20 standard. They can't have it one way, but then
21 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you. 21 use it the other way when it benefits their
22 B R I A N R A N S, 169 New York 22 interests.
23 Avenue, Jersey City, New Jersey, having been duly 23 RNA is specifically not liking the
24 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 24 height and the density. I think we talked about
25 MR. RANS: That's really loud. That's 25 there might be too much parking. There also might
Page 131 Page 133
1 kind of funny. 1 be too much residential. An easy fix would just
2 Okay. So this project, I find this very 2 be to eliminate one of the parking decks and one
3 fascinating. I want to incorporate by reference 3 of the residential units. That takes into
4 what Kern said just to make this much quicker and 4 consideration the three stories that would
5 easier for you commissioners. Again, thank you 5 compensate for the heightened Light Rail line of
6 for being here. There's a lot of interesting 6 NJ Transit and it would also alleviate some of the
7 arguments from experts and people. I don't envy 7 fears of the surrounding neighborhood of having
8 the decision that you have to make. 8 too much density, too much traffic and height that
9 In my opinion as the vice president of 9 could potentially set a precedent for future
10 RNA, also the Chair of the Heights folks in Jersey 10 development.
11 City, the community is extremely worried about the 11 So in its current form, I don't believe
12 precedent that these large buildings are setting 12 that I can support this project. I do admire the
13 and how they could impact the view, how they can 13 amount of effort and the skill involved in
14 impact traffic circulation driving down New York 14 producing this. I mean, I agree, it's a beautiful
15 and Ravine Avenue. 15 building. It seems like they put a lot of heart
16 And I agree with what was said 16 and care into it. There's some green elements
17 previously. You have to analyze the benefits and 17 that I really like. And as a Jersey City
18 the negatives. Unfortunately, I don't think the 18 resident --
19 developer has met its burden to show the proper 19 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: You need to
20 benefits of this project. They talked about a 20 wrap it up.
21 pedestrian walkway they want to create, but they 21 MR. RANS: -- I don't want to see the
22 didn't really forward a concrete, specific plan to 22 Heights become an unaffordable place where people
23 do so. They want to talk with NJ Transit to 23 of different cultures get to live. I do
24 create something, but there's no plan in place. 24 appreciate they're willing to invest, I think,
25 They haven't received permission or an easement 25 $200,000 into the Affordable Housing Trust Fund.

34 (Pages 130 to 133)

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 Page 134
1 But when you look at the precedent this can set
2 and how far they're bypassing the current zoning
3 ordinance, I don't think this Zoning Board can
4 affirm this proposal.
5 Thank you.
6 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
7 M A M T A S I N G H, One Shore Lane,
8 Newport, New Jersey, having been duly sworn, was
9 examined and testified as follows:
10 MS. SINGH: So I'm a volunteer for our
11 development committee, HPNA. Just one suggestion.
12 I feel the project showed by the developer is very
13 shortsighted. They could come up with a
14 comprehensive design that considers the entire
15 site, Jersey City and Hoboken. And then they can
16 seek approval from both the cities.
17 This is my suggestion. Thank you.
18 J O N A T H A N B L O O D G O O D,
19 273 16th Street, Jersey City, New Jersey, having
20 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
21 follows:
22 MR. BLOODGOOD: I am in favor of this
23 project. I have lived in SoHo Lofts since May of
24 2018. I have walked along that path into Hoboken
25 many times during the week, primarily at night. I
Page 135
1 do feel very unsafe there. There is somewhat of a
2 homeless population there. Very dark. Doesn't
3 seem to be very much pedestrian traffic.
4 So I do feel this building will help
5 increase safety, increase pedestrian traffic,
6 hopefully increase lighting.
7 Being in that area, SoHo Lofts areas,
8 the Cast Iron Lofts area, there's nothing consumer
9 around it. Hopefully another building, this
10 building, will help increase the consumer
11 population over there. Restaurants, more shops,
12 things like that.
13 Currently I have to cross the eight-lane
14 highway into Hamilton Park to get food of any
15 sort. Parks over there, basketball court over
16 there. So I think Hoboken should also be involved
17 in kind of creating that atmosphere on this side
18 of Jersey City, this side of Hoboken, because
19 there is nothing over there at the time.
20 I know these buildings are new, but I do
21 think we need to get this process going, get some
22 more consumer, get some more living, buildings
23 over there and really create that environment, get
24 that environment up and going, and make it a more
25 enjoyable living experience and kind of merge the
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Page 136
1 communities together from that point into Hoboken.
2 Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
4 D A N I E L L E B E A M, 52 Franklin
5 Street, Unit 2, Jersey City, New Jersey, having
6 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
7 follows:
8 MS. BEAM: I am in support of this
9 project. As being a Heights resident, I think
10 it's extremely important to focus on the fact that
11 I think Jersey City at its core is a neighborhood
12 that prides itself on diversity and prides itself
13 on that neighborly love.
14 This project would not only bring
15 downtown and the Heights together to a community
16 base, but also bring in Hoboken. As a Heights
17 resident, I spend probably 75 percent of my time
18 in Hoboken, not in Jersey City, because of the
19 distance between my apartment and places to eat,
20 places to hang out, places to shop.
21 I walk my dog past the Hoboken Business
22 Center on a regular basis. I drive past that
23 building every day on my way to work. And the
24 amount of traffic in Hoboken and Jersey City I
25 think is undeniable. We all understand that we
Page 137
1 live in the city. There's a significant amount of
2 traffic at all points in time.
3 I personally don't believe that a
4 building that has less than 200 units in it is
5 going to significantly impact that particular
6 traffic issue. I think that's an entirely
7 different agenda that we could probably talk to at
8 length.
9 But for this particular project, in
10 being a female, young professional who spends a
11 lot of time in this particular area, I don't feel
12 safe even with my dog walking in this particular
13 area. The development of this I think would only
14 heighten the area. It would be more attractive to
15 individuals such as myself who would be probably
16 the ideal residents of this new proposed building,
17 but I think the thing to really remember is that
18 within this structure, even though it is Jersey
19 City, in the downtown area, Hoboken will benefit,
20 the Heights will benefit, people who are coming
21 here from a variety of different areas in New
22 Jersey looking for a place in Jersey City that has
23 access to public transportation, but also has
24 access to parking.
25 I know that parking was an issue with
35 (Pages 134 to 137)
 Page 138
1 probably having too many parking spaces. As a
2 Heights resident who drives around 25, 30 minutes
3 a day looking for parking, I would love to have
4 the ability to park my car and leave it there and
5 then take advantage of that transportation or of
6 that pedestrian walk.
7 That's something that's ideal to me and
8 that's something that I would be looking for in
9 purchasing or renting a property in the near
10 future because I think for people my age, it is
11 important to have access to a car, especially when
12 you are a transplant Jersey City resident. But
13 it's also extremely effective to be in such close
14 proximity to transportation and to be able to walk
15 around and really enjoy that Hoboken downtown and
16 Heights area.
17 And I think a lot of that -- a lot of
18 that pedestrian traffic will really go towards
19 Hoboken and not so much to Hamilton Park and not
20 so much to the Heights even though everyone did
21 raise great concerns. Most of the people that you
22 talk to who live in this area are going to
23 primarily be focused on using the retail space in
24 the Hoboken area.
25 Thank you.
Page 139
1 J O H N G R E G O R I O, 107
2 Jackson Street, Hoboken, New Jersey, having been
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5 MR. GREGORIO: A lot has been said about
6 how this project is more Hoboken and will affect
7 Hoboken much more than it will Jersey City. And
8 I'm going to say I met some of the people from
9 Jersey City Heights many years ago when I was the
10 first one in Hoboken to call out the SkyClub. And
11 they went to City Hall there and it was a
12 different time in the administration and I was
13 told "Why do you have to know what's being built
14 there?"
15 And I said, "Well, I live there. It's
16 going to affect me."
17 And the Zoning Officer said, "Well, it's
18 to code. It's only going to be six stories high."
19 As I was leaving, the architect for the
20 project said, very happily, "Oh, no, we got it
21 zoned up on Christmas Eve to two buildings 17
22 stories high with almost 100 percent lot
23 coverage." And he was very proud of this fact.
24 Everybody else wasn't.
25 Working with then Mayor Roberts, he was
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Page 140
1 saying, "Oh, I can't do anything about it.
2 Everybody else wants it. I need the density back
3 there." And they gave him the benefit of the
4 doubt, but we asked for some sort of remediation
5 for flood waters, et cetera, and we got something.
6 Okay?
7 So that's my way how I know the people
8 here. And I believe that there should be a
9 back-and-forth between Hoboken and Jersey City,
10 especially in this site. The people in Hoboken
11 had no idea that this was going to be done at all
12 despite having worked with Mr. Dell'Aquila on the
13 Hoboken Business Center, where he very recently
14 asked to take the three-story building and turn it
15 into a six-story building. Okay? Part of that
16 increase in height was based on using the parking
17 lot to cover his parking needs for the retail and
18 stuff in his enlarged building.
19 And I'm going to cut it short here.
20 Spoke with the mayor. He said he's never seen
21 this project. Mr. Dell'Aquila in April showed him
22 some preliminary plan. Spoke with Brandy Forbes
23 and a whole bunch of other people and I believe
24 they talked to your planner and are trying to send
25 over information to say what they've done in
Page 141
1 Hoboken.
2 This is not anything like anybody else
3 has built in Hoboken. If you go to the opposite
4 side of Southwest Park, with buildings that are
5 100 percent lot coverage, you have eight stories,
6 period. You don't have 15 stories.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you.
9 All right. So I think -- so at this
10 juncture, we're going to close the public comment.
11 All of the comments will be reflected on the
12 transcripts and hopefully we'll have an
13 opportunity to vote on this when we have six or
14 seven commissioners available.
15 MR. LaPAGLIA: Mr. Verdibello, you would
16 like to make a comment?
17 MR. VERDIBELLO: We would just like to
18 clarify again a couple points to the public
19 comment. I know there were many statements that
20 were made and it's the public right to comment.
21 But just to take the last gentleman, Mr. Gregorio,
22 who made a comment. We did, in fact, meet with
23 Hoboken public officials. I just want the record
24 to reflect that. We did meet with Hoboken
25 planning staff. We did meet with Mayor Bhalla.
36 (Pages 138 to 141)
 Page 142
1 So I don't know what the source of Mr. Gregorio's
2 information is. It is what it is. But we just
3 want the record to note that we did have meetings
4 with Hoboken officials and they were aware of this
5 project.
6 As far as some of the other comments
7 that were made, again, I know some comments were
8 made, perhaps not everyone had the opportunity to
9 see the plans that were available for public
10 inspection. There were comments made about lack
11 of green spaces. Again, we just want the record
12 to reflect that that's not incorporating the new
13 Hoboken Southwest Resiliency Park which is in the
14 direct vicinity of this project. So for the
15 record to reflect that there are no green spaces
16 is inaccurate and we just want that clarified on
17 the record.
18 Plus, as I'm sure this Board is aware
19 and members of the public are aware, there are
20 plans for a park to be built as for the Emerson
21 project. That is in the near term. So, again,
22 green space is something that is on the horizon
23 and we just want the record to reflect that.
24 As far as trying to do a comprehensive
25 plan with Hoboken and Jersey City, while that's
Page 143
1 good in theory, that's really not the way the New
2 Jersey Municipal Land Use Law works. Ultimately
3 each individual municipality is responsible for
4 its own zoning laws. And as a result, to do
5 comprehensive plans is good in theory, almost
6 impossible in practice.
7 So while we appreciate members of the
8 public taking a practical approach and almost a
9 sensible approach to that, again, we just want the
10 record to reflect that under the guidelines of the
11 Municipal Land Use Law, it is difficult, if not
12 impossible, if not nonexistent, to do.
13 And that is why what we have tried to do
14 as part of this project, which I think was put on
15 the record through our experts, might have gotten
16 a little lost in the shuffle, is that we are
17 trying to accommodate any future development of
18 the Hoboken Business Center, any future
19 development in the area to make it compatible with
20 any future development that may come along.
21 That's why we've devised what we feel is a very
22 flexible parking strategy to accommodate both our
23 neighbors to the north in Hoboken and also the
24 concerns from Jersey City. Even when we met with
25 the Riverview Neighborhood Association, there were
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Page 144
1 concerns raised about parking.
2 So for people to say, well -- it's
3 almost like the Goldilocks syndrome. You know,
4 what's too little parking, what's too much
5 parking, what's the right amount of parking? I've
6 been involved in projects in similar areas where
7 we've advocated for no parking and we've been
8 scoffed and laughed at. So to be criticized for
9 having too much parking is a little bit different.
10 Again, every person is within his or her
11 right to assert that, but I would respectfully
12 submit that, again, we're trying to accommodate a
13 very flexible situation and that's part of the
14 reason why we're even implementing at cost, which
15 is part of the development plan, to have the valet
16 parking system, to basically try to get the most
17 advantageous parking situation, especially given
18 the circumstances of that site, which is, you
19 know, people who live there will not be able to
20 get Hoboken parking permits. So even if they
21 could find a spot on the streets in Hoboken, they
22 wouldn't be able to park there.
23 There is absolutely no street parking in
24 Jersey City on any of those streets, including New
25 York Avenue. And as a result, what we're trying
Page 145
1 to do is to avoid the situation that, again, the
2 public has complained about with Hoboken Avenue as
3 it rises up underneath Christ Hospital to not have
4 cars parked on the street.
5 Now, they can't park there, but, again,
6 we're taking into account and being flexible in
7 how we approach that to basically say, "Well, if
8 there is, by some chance, despite, we can
9 accommodate that." And that's really what the
10 idea is, is to have a responsible approach to
11 planning from that perspective.
12 As far as the height of the building, we
13 understand the concerns that the community has.
14 That's part of the reason why we were instructed
15 and we were planning to meet with RNA and we did.
16 We were able to reduce the height of the building.
17 It still is what it is. I'm not going to sit here
18 and say it's not a high-rise; it is.
19 But, you know, we took great care to
20 make sure that the view corridors from on top of
21 the Palisades in the Heights neighborhood is not
22 detrimentally impacted by this building. And we
23 think we've accomplished that through the design
24 of the building, through the orientation of the
25 building.
37 (Pages 142 to 145)
 Page 146 Page 148
1 The key difference between this 1 concerned when the shoe was on the other foot back
2 building, I would submit, even though I'm not the 2 18 years ago.
3 expert, between this building and SkyClub is 3 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: I know and
4 orientation. This building is on a perpendicular 4 I'm also very concerned about the traffic. I'm
5 access to the Palisades and the SkyClub acts as a 5 just kidding.
6 curtain wall. That is a dramatic difference in 6 MR. LaPAGLIA: So that concludes this
7 how this building will be viewed and the impact it 7 project for the evening, this application.
8 will have on any of the view corridors in the 8 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Yes. Very
9 Heights. 9 good.
10 Moreover, we are farther out from the 10 (Whereupon, the hearing on this
11 Palisades cliffs than the SkyClub is. And we're 11 application was carried to the November 15, 2018
12 not only farther out and outside of the PPOD 12 meeting at 6:30 p.m.)
13 height restrictions, but we're lower than the 13
14 SkyClub. So between the orientation and the 14
15 access of the building and the height of the 15
16 building and the fact that it's lower than the 16
17 SkyClub, it will not have the same impact. If 17
18 anything, we are setting a new, better precedent 18
19 moving forward for how to develop in that area and 19
20 to be conscious and cognizant of the impacts that 20
21 that has on the developing community. 21
22 So with that, I'll conclude my remarks 22
23 and I'll ask for the Board's consideration. I 23
24 realize we're not taking a vote tonight, but I 24
25 just wanted to add those comments to the record. 25

Page 147 Page 149

1 Thank you. 1 CERTIFICATE
2 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: Thank you, 2
3 Mr. Verdibello. 3 I, BRIDGET LOMBARDOZZI, Notary Public
4 MR. GREGORIO: Can I just bring up 4 and Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State
5 something since he questioned my veracity here? 5 of New Jersey, do hereby certify that the
6 MR. VERDIBELLO: I did not question your
6 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of
7 the testimony as taken stenographically by and
7 veracity.
8 before me at the time, place and the date
8 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: The Board
9 hereinbefore set forth.
9 is perfectly capable of making its own judgments
10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither
10 as to, you know, the statements and the evidence 11 a relative nor employee nor attorney nor
11 that was heard this evening. So, you know, I -- 12 counsel of any of the parties to this action,
12 MR. GREGORIO: I have an e-mail from 13 and that I am neither a relative nor employee
13 Ravi Bhalla, who is the mayor of Hoboken, saying 14 of such attorney or counsel, and that I am not
14 he never heard about any of this stuff. He heard 15 financially interested in the action.
15 about it in April, he rejected it, and from there 16
16 on, nothing else happened. Can I put that into 17 -----------------------------------------
17 the record? BRIDGET LOMBARDOZZI,
18 MR. LaPAGLIA: You just did. 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter
19 ACTING CHAIRWOMAN DONNELLY: You just C.S.R. License No. XI01201
19
20 did and that's fine, but we also heard from two
20
21 councilmen from Hoboken tonight. And, frankly, I
21
22 don't really care about Hoboken.
22
23 BOARD MEMBER SHEDEED: That's on the 23
24 record. 24
25 MR. GREGORIO: And yet you were 25

38 (Pages 146 to 149)

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abatement 76:9 89:23 124:20 108:15 109:10 97:17 122:1 agreement
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129:19 Acting 1:12 5:1 actual 31:4 129:18 138:5 amenities 16:13
accept 10:9 5:18,23 6:6 9:6 106:23 107:7 advantageous amenity 16:21
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57:2 59:5 100:20 101:13 64:17 93:5,6 agree 98:7 anybody 71:18
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113:4 116:22 10:2 55:16 Aside 7:13 5:4,10,12 6:18 Bachelor 42:21
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