10 things not to do with hydronic radiant heating

presented at:
presented by:
John Siegenthaler, P.E.
Appropriate Designs
Holland Patent, NY
www.hydronicpros.com

February 14, 2018

© Copyright 2018, J. Siegenthaler, all rights reserved. The contents of this file shall not be copied or transmitted in any form without written permission of the author. All diagrams shown in this file
on conceptual and not intended as fully detailed installation drawings. No warranty is made as the the suitability of any drawings or data for a particular application.
1. Don’t use floor heating under floor coverings with high
thermal resistance. tube
spacing
• Suggest R= 2.0
ºF•hr•ft2/Btu TOTAL 4"
covering resistance (all concrete
slab
layers) if boiler is heat
source. 6-inch tube spacing
12-inch tube spacing
• Suggest R= 1.0 Rff=0 Rff=0.5
60
ºF•hr•ft2/Btu TOTAL
upward heat flux!
(Btu/hr/ft2) Rff=1.0
covering resistance (all
40 Rff=1.5
layers) if used with Rff=2.0
renewable heat source
20
(heat pump, solar).
0
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
Driving ∆T (Tw-Tr) (ºF)!
Average water temp. - room air temp
Rff = resistance of finish flooring (ºF/hr/ft^2/Btu)
2. Don’t use “plateless” staple-up method of installation
• VERY limited heat transfer from tubing
• The only place you’ll find this “technique” used is North America…
2. Don’t use plateless staple-up method of installation
140 ºF water (w/ plates)

8” o.c. tubing 140 ºF water (no plates)

Floor surface temperature profiles 100 ºF water (w/ plates)

90 90
100 ºF water (no plates)
86 86

82 82

78 78

74 74

70 70

3/8" ceramic tile

3/4" plywood

Proper use
4" fiberglass

of plates
can
70 ºF air temperature increase
3/8" ceramic tile

3/4" plywood
heat output
about 3X
over
4" fiberglass

plateless
systems.
70 ºF air temperature
3. Don’t rely on “bubble foil” insulation.
• “Radiant” insulation doesn’t work under a slab (what air space??)

• Dust accumulation reduces effectiveness (e.g., increases emissivity)

in air spaces over time.
• Nominal product R-value of 1.0. Some sources claim an “assembly”
R value of 15, with generous assumptions on resistance of air spaces.

http://healthyheating.com/
Radiant_Design_Guide/
Radiant_heating_mistakes_to_av
oid.htm#.Wl9cda2tpyp
4. Don’t leave tubing at bottom of slab.
• Requires higher water temperature for
same upward heat output. (next slide)
• Increases downward heat loss

• Increases response time, which can

exasperate temperature overshoot and
undershoot.

Notice where the tubing is in

this 6” heated concrete slab

Lift tubing to
approximately
half slab depth
during pour.
4. Don’t leave tubing at bottom of slab.
Deeper tubing requires increased water
temperature for a given heat output.
1/2" PEX tube
3/8"
hardwood
flooring

4"
concrete
slab

1"
polystyrene
insulation

Upward heat output Average circuit water Average circuit water

temperature with temperature with tubing at
tubing at ½ slab depth bottom of slab

15 Btu/hr/ft2 95ºF 102ºF

30 Btu/hr/ft2 120ºF 134ºF

sawn control joint

crack forms here
polyethylene sleeving
WWF reinforcing wire matt tubing

tamped fill

6-mill poly moisture barrier

underside insulation leave tubing and WWF at
bottom of slab under
control joint locations
5. Don’t route tubing under cabinets,
refrigerators, or freezers, or within 6” of closet
flanges.

towel warmer
206+10=216 ft.
W D
LAUNDRY
177+15=192 ft.

KITCHEN
206+10=216 ft.

T
thermostat

route tubing under subfloor

6. Don’t use “homemade” or poorly formed heat transfer plates.
• The conduction bond between tube and plate is critical to good
heat transfer.
Proper installation of plates
above and below floor
7. Don’t waste tubing by creating long “leaders”
• Adds material and labor cost, and increases circulator head loss

Create “extended manifold” instead

7. Don’t waste tubing by creating long “leaders”

Create “extended manifold” instead

7. Don’t waste tubing by creating long “leaders”

Create “extended manifold” instead

8. Don’t use PEX with external EVOH oxygen barrier in
combination with aluminum plates.
• Roughly 10:1 ratio in expansion coefficients
• Rapid water temperature changes in PEX tend to create “stiction” sounds.

• Use PEX-AL-PEX tubing instead. The coefficients of expansion are

very close.
• Ideally - use constant circulation and outdoor reset control of water
temperature for very quiet system.
8. Don’t place tubing without an accurate layout drawing
• Wasted time
• Wasted materials
• No future documentation
• Unknown circuit lengths
Tubing layout drawing…
• All circuits labelled and measured
• Use different colors for each circuit M BEDROOM

M
264+10=274 ft.

BA
TH
RO
• Show flow direction for each circuit

O
M
shelves

• Show control joint locations

CLOSET
206+10=216 ft.
W D
LAUNDRY

1/2 BATH

213+10=223 ft.

thermostat
T
ENTRY

KITCHEN
GARAGE

206+10=216 ft.

T
thermostat
328+10=338 ft.

291+10=301 ft.

DINING

317+10=327 ft.
ENTRY

LIVING ROOM

263+10=273 ft. 307+10=317 ft.

10. Don’t use thermostatic mixing valves intended for DHW
systems for mixing in hydronic radiant panel systems.
1" piping
1-inch thermostatic mixing valve with Cv = 3.0
The problem(s):
anticipated flow rate in
• Small thermostatic mixing valves each circuit = 1 gpm

can have Cv values as low as 2.5.

1" piping
• 2.5 gpm = 1 psi ∆P.

• At 8 gpm ∆P = 10.2 psi

• At 12 gpm ∆P = 23 psi

• The thermostatic mixing valve is

creating a large flow bottleneck.

• Small circulators only produce

about 4-10 psi
@ zero flow…
One more: Don’t use lightweight concrete 2
1.8 +
Note: Standard structural
concrete has density of

R-value per inch (ºF/sq. ft./hr/Btu)

for heated “thin-slab” floors. 1.6
1.4
approximately 140 to 150
lb/cubic foot, and an R-value of
about 0.1per inch of thickness.

Lightweight concrete is made with aggregates such 1.2

1 +
as vermiculite and polystyrene. These materials 0.8
0.6
significantly decrease the thermal conductivity of 0.4 + +
+
+ ++
the concrete, which impedes heat diffusion. 150 lb/ft^3 concrete 0.2
0
0 20 40 60 80 100 120
106 lb/ft^3 concrete
density of concrete mix (lb/cubic foot)
75 lb/ft^3 concrete
Floor Surface Temperatures 50 lb/ft^3 concrete 3/8" ceramic tile
for thin-slab construction shown 150 lb/ft3
1.5" slab
using different light weight concretes. concrete
25 lb/ft^3 concrete
3/4" plywood

100 ºF water temperature in tubes

70 ºF ambient air temperature
floor surface temperature (ºF)

4" fiberglass
84 84
82 82
80 80 106 lb/ft3
78 78 concrete

76 76
74 74
72 72
70 70
6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 75 lb/ft3
distance from tube centerline (inches) concrete
3/8" ceramic tile

1.5" slab

3/4" plywood

25 lb/ft3
concrete
4" fiberglass
 What’s Wrong 

with This Picture?
What’s Wrong with This Picture?
Everyone who considers themselves a hydronic heating professional has made
mistakes as they’ve learned to assemble systems from thousands of products
in almost endless combinations.

True professionals learn from their mistakes, as well as the mistakes of others.
They make a constant effort not to repeat mistakes. They refine system
designs by carefully examining proposed installations for such mistakes.

The images that follow are all drawn from real installations.

Many have no doubt disappointed their owners.

Look them over with a discerning eye for details that could be problems.

Keep in mind that there are usually several options for addressing a given
installation requirement, and that it is not necessarily an “error” to select a
method or product different from another hydronic heating professional.
Is this a little known form of waste heat recovery?
What do you see that’s wrong?
Check out the electrically-operated
pressure relief valve on this system…
A modern hydronic system assembled using the 

“DESIGN-AS-YOU-SOLDER” approach…
What’s wrong with the mixing valve here?
It’s the same problem in this photo…
The controls for an $80,000 heating system…
How many zone circulators can “pull” through a 3/4”
thermostatic mixing valve?

Do you think eight might be too many?

Notice how the burner
is turned on and off in
the radiant floor
heating system serving
a 7000 square foot
municipal building…

Interesting side note:

The installing
contractor also sells
fuel oil…
Question: Where was this guy during wiring codes class?
Answer: He was in pipe sculpture class…
What do you think is wrong here?
Some situations defy description…
in PM magazine: The Glitch & The Fix

Look for the Glitch in Look for the Fix in

PM magazine (pmmag.com) the Radiant & Hydronics eNewsletter
zone
valves

fixed speed
varaible speed
circulator pressure regulated
zone
circulator
valves

12D

purge
valves

cast iron boiler

the GLITCH
cast iron boiler

the FIX
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