Now I come

to the
conclusion
after going
into the
posting of
Mr. Sarkar
that Kz and
Lz have
nothing to
do with
slenderness
ratio or
effective
length
factor.

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bijay sarkar Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject:
...
No No...

Joined: 14 Dec Kz, Ky, UNF are effective length factors and Lz, Ly, UNL are effective lengths. Only
2009 one set of data are to be provided in staad...either factors or Eff. lengths. If u
Posts: 314 provide factors, staad will itself calculate the effective lengths for further calculation
of the slenderness ratio of the member.

If you provide effective lengths Lz, Ly, UNL then staad will simply calculate the
slenderness ratio of the member for calculating the permissible stress of the member
for design verification.

regards,

bijay sarkar

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suresh_sha Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject:

rma
... Mr. Sarkar, do you mean to say that Ly and Lz which in majority of the cases are
node to node distance are the effective length of the member for the purpose of
design in compression but IS 456 utlises sway and non sway definition coupled with
Joined: 23 Mar Beta1 and beta2 factors for determning effective length factor. In majority of the
2011 sway frames the effective length factor will work out to more than 1. In fact the
Posts: 783 minimum value of the factor for the sway frame is 1. If this is the case then Staad is
not considering effective length for design in the true spirit of the code.

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bijay sarkar Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:27 am Post subject:
...
As the discussion was going on based on a staad file of steel structure, my all above
postings are related with steel structures where effective length factors may be less
Joined: 14 Dec than 1 such as truss members and bracing members. It depends on end fixity
2009 condition of the member. In steel structure, i have not found any engineer to
Posts: 314 calculate it from Beta1 and Beta2 which are cumbersome. Before Beta1 and Beta2,
we are to decide which structure is a sway frame & which one is a non-sway frame.
In case of columns, this factor is considered greater than unity in the direction of
moment frame which is assumed as sway frame direction. In the braced direction, it
 is assumed as unity i.e for non-sway frame.

regards,

bijay sarkar

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debayan Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:10 am Post subject:

...
Some people have the habit of giving one length only, which they usually give by
multipliying the kx or kz factor along with the actual length.

That is absolutely permissible provided you don't ge confused.

Personally I feel it is better to give Ly, Lz seperate and Ky, Kz seperate just because
it is easy for someone to verify if the particular STAAD file is given to someone for
checking.
Joined: 25 Jul
2008
Posts: 88

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debayan Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:21 am Post subject:

...
@Suresh Sharma:- Actually I have yet to work thoroughly on the new IS code. It is
based on limit state method, so it might have a new method to calculate Ky and Kz.
But I clearly remember in the older code the Max value of K was 2 (for cantilever
members).

But if you go according to AISC or BS codes you can have K values greater than 2
and that too for non-cantilever members. Actually in these codes they calculate the
total rotational stiffness of the joint based on the column stiffness and the stiffnesses
Joined: 25 Jul of the members framing into it. That, I feel gives a far accurate picture.
2008
Posts: 88 Anyways, lets not get confused and you stick to the code that you are following at
present.

K factor cannot be calculated in STAAD. That is a input parameter which has to be

given in STAAD or else it will take the default value as 1 which can have disastrous
consequences.

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suresh_sha Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject:

rma
... The factors beta1 and beta2 are applicable even to steel structures for determining
effective length factor of sway and non sway frames In this connection please refer
to Fig C1 and C2 of appendix C of IS 800 -1984. Similar clause is also in IS 800-
Joined: 23 Mar 2007. Under the circumstances please guide me as to how to go about it. One of my
2011 fellow designer has told me that he used to determine effective length factor with the
Posts: 783 help of beta1 and beta2 during his previous assignment and that his company had
developed an Excel sheet for working out effective length factor based on beta1 and
beta2

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JVCSNL Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject:

...
 Dear All,
Joined: 26 Jan Please refer to following definitions:
2003
Posts: 157 <xml><o> </o>
1. Ly : Unsupported Length in local Y axis – for a column modelled in
STAAD it is Clear distance between beams parallel to local Z direction, the
distance being Top of lower side element and bottom of upper element
2. Lz : Unsupported Length in local Z axis – for a column modelled in STAAD
it is Clear distance between beams parallel to local Y direction, the distance
being Top of lower side element and bottom of upper element
3. KY : Effective Length Factor for calculation of slenderness in Y axis
4. KZ : Effective Length Factor for calculation of slenderness in Z axis
5. Ley : Effective Length in Y Axis = KY x LY
6. Lez : Effective Length in Z Axis = KZ x LZ
Ley and Lez are the end results that matter the member most, which is
multiplication of K and L in appropriate direction. They are design parameters
required for design of elements and not used in analysis.
These parameters are necessary to calculate the slenderness ratio of member,
which is very important parameter for strength of compression
members. Hence, these parameters are applicable to columns or beam-
columns. Whether it is steel or concrete column, the purpose of these
parameters is to appropriately consider the compression capacity of the
element under design.
Basically, effective length is the distance between two points between which
the compression member buckle. For example, in case of column fixed at both
ends, the buckling will occur between 0.7m length (portion near ends not
buckled). In case of cantilever, the same is 2(two) as the first point is at fixed
end and the second point is at imaginary end which is mirror from free end.
Effective length factor for braced (non-sway) frame is less than unity. For un-
braced (sway frame) frame it is greater than unity. To calculate the effective
length factors one has to understand the buckling phenomena. The buckling of
member depends on its rotational stiffness at each end. The rotational stiffness
is calculated based on stiffness of column element and end condition of beam
elements at column ends. The terms beta1 and beta2 represent the stiffness
of beam column element at two ends of compression members. Buckling
analysis an eigen value problem and difficult to solve manually and hence,
Wood has suggested such simplified charts in early seventies.
Hence, if you can calculate the rotational stiffness of joint at both ends,
whether it is steel or concrete, effective lengths can be calculated. For a multi-
storeyed steel structure having moment connections at floors, the calculation
of effective length factors is very important and is being done. Also, for crane
columns, the same is very important in case of heavier cranes as stepped
column is a non prismatic member and its buckling behaviour is quite
complex. According to my experience, the effective length factor of such crane
columns in major axis is as high as 5.
For concrete structures, Ley and Lez are required to calculate the type of
column in particular direction and do needful for the slenderness effects in
particular direction.
 <o> </o>
In actual 3D models, the physical members are divided at many node points to
form the geometry of the structures. The members between such nodes can
be termed as analytical members. Usually, the programs do not identify the
physical members unless they are defined using these parameters. ETABS and
SAP do have some features, whereby it calculates the appropriate length in
each direction. STAAD do have option of physical member modelling.
For design of steel beams in STAAD, the factor UNL is unsupported length to
calculate the bending stress (based on lateral torsional buckling) and shall not
be confused with Ly or Lz which are used for calculation of compressive
stresses.
For more on the buckling and effective lengths, one may refer the paper
published by Wood in the Structural engineer in seventies and book theory of
elastic stability by Timoshenko.
<o> </o>
Regards,
Jignesh Chokshi
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suresh_sha Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:45 am Post subject:

rma
... Mr.Chokshi,
Now I understand from your posting that ELY and ELZ factor has to be detrmined as
per Beta1 and Beta2 factor laid down in IS 456 and based on this input Staad will
Joined: 23 Mar calculate l/r ratio otherwise Staad will take into account the default value which will
2011 be erroneous. Am I correct?
Posts: 783

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JVCSNL Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject:

...
Dear Suresh,

Joined: 26 Jan Your understanding is correct. You need to provide necessary input (k and L) to
2003 calculate effective lengths.
Posts: 157
I also suggest that after you perform design in any commercial software, you also
check one or two designs manually for understanding and validating the design
inputs.

Regards,

Jignesh Chokshi