Coping With Hindrances

Transcription of a dhamma talk and teacher-student interview by Bhikkhu Sopako Bodhi

(Achan Sobin Namto) during a meditation retreat in Edmonton, Canada, 1988. Edited by
Cynthia Thatcher.

Topics covered: maintaining continuity of mindfulness; coping with sleepiness and other
hindrances; mindfulness vs. concentration techniques; interviews with meditators.

Note: the meditators' names have been changed. The commentary in brackets is the editor's.

Contents

Edmonton Talk #3 - Beginning

Sometimes There's No Object
Good or Bad Feelings
Moggallana
Continuity is Possible
Interview with Meditators

Coping With Hindrances: Edmonton Talk #3

This morning: about continuity. What is the meaning of continuity? First we provide an object
[for mindfulness] to continue with. We follow the step-by-step, moment-to-moment
technique. We set up the first foundation of mindfulness, the body, by maintaining continuity
between sitting standing, walking, and sitting again.
Or, when doing something else, we also keep the step-by-step technique. We move the hands
to the abdomen one at a time before standing up or walking. We walk step-by-step from one
step through six step and then go back to sitting. When the object is continuous, [i.e., when one
keeps noting objects from one moment to the next, without a break] mindfulness will follow
the object until mindfulness gains experience to be steady at the level. At that time we give up
the step-by-step [technique] and give up labeling [the object with mental notes]. We return to
normal, right? To natural life - just walk, just do it. Mindfulness will separate ultimate truth
and ordinary truth. Even when memory can remember [the name of an object] according to
ordinary truth, mindfulness will keep going with ultimate truth. Mindfulness will take care.

Usually meditators don't understand how to keep continuity. Sometimes you feel sleepy. You're
not aware of the object; when you wake up you have to continue from there. Don't worry about
how long you fall asleep. When you wake up, just keep going from that moment, continuously.

For example: outside there's sunshine when its daytime. But sometimes big clouds pass over the
sun. Maybe it's a long time until we get sunlight on the ground again. While the clouds cover
the sun there's no bright light on the ground. That's all right. When the clouds pass, the sun
will continue to shine, right? That's the point. Like the trees outside that cast shadows. When
clouds cover the sun, the shadows are gone; but when the clouds pass away, the shadows are
still there. As soon as they appear again the shadows begin to move a little bit, as the sun moves.
It's the same thing with the mind; it doesn't matter how long it wanders out, since you continue
with your duty to watch it.

Just like when you go to a concert or a show. When you buy a ticket you have a seat to sit in.
When the actors appear onstage you just keep to your duty of watching them. You still sit in
your seat. The actors come and go onstage. One goes behind the curtain and you wait for
another to come out. You just have the duty to sit and watch. It's not your job to jump onstage,
to take a role in the play, right? You do not move or take a break from watching the stage.

Sometimes it takes a few minutes before the actor comes on. But you just keep watching, keep
seeing, by your duty. Don't become part of the play! Don't become an actor yourself. You only
have the duty to see. The actors have the duty to show. Whether the play is good or bad is the
actors' responsibility, not yours. Whether the show is good or bad is not up to you. When the
show is good, you know that it's good. When it's bad, you know it's bad. Just knowing. Just
seeing. Don't attach with a good show; don't resist a bad show. In this way you keep to your
duty of just seeing.
Sometimes There's No Object

Sometimes there's no object. When the actors aren't showing anything you still have the duty to
sit there. You don't leave the theatre. If you go out you have broken the continuity. Then you
have to buy a ticket again. You have to find another seat. That means that your attention is not
continuous. But if you stay that means you are practicing continuity.

Here you sit for forty or forty-five minutes. Sometimes you have wandering mind for five
minutes, for example. Sometimes you fall asleep for a few minutes. Sometimes emotion arises. It
doesn't matter. As soon as you realize that the mind has wandered, begin again from that point.
When you wake up, just continue right away. You shouldn't care about how long the mind
wandered or how long you fell asleep. Don't worry about that. When you know that the mind
has wandered, just continue from that moment, more and more. You will not have broken
continuity. You'll be on the correct path.

The "step" of mindfulness is not the same length as the step of walking, for example. The step of
mindfulness can be very, very short, a very small period of time, or very sharp. [I.e., in the
duration of one step of the foot, the meditator can experience many moments arising and
vanishing, one after another, if mindfulness is strong enough.]

But sometimes you have wandering mind for five minutes. Right before the mind wanders off
you still have mindfulness; but then there is a five minute gap. At the end of five minutes you
realize that the mind had wandered and you bring it back to the present. We can call this a
"long" step of mindfulness. That is, there is a big gap, a long period of time, between two
consecutive moments of mindfulness. But that's not wrong because you have not broken
continuity.

As soon as you are aware of a lapse, you continue with the practice; you return to observing
objects from moment-to-moment right away. Sometimes you can jump from one moment to
the next; sometimes there will be a longer gap. But the important thing is that when you lose
your awareness for a few moments you do not get upset. Don't wonder why you wandered off.

Don't think "How come I don't have concentration?" or "Why did I fall asleep? Why don't I have
energy?" or something like that. Don't wonder about the reason you fell asleep, because there is
no reason. Sleepiness has no reason; it just appears by the duty of the hindrances. [The five
hindrances to meditation are: lust, sleepiness, restlessness, anger, and doubt.] Don't try to find
out why the mind wanders or why you are thinking, because it is the duty of the mind to think.
If it doesn't think, then it isn't a mind, it's a table. Only material things never think.

That's why, when you are thinking, or you feel emotion or another hindrance arise, don't care
about it. Just focus and forget it. Whichever hindrance shows itself, just look at it and focus so
as to see that one. Just keep watching the object that is clear. Sometimes two or three actors
appear, but it doesn't matter which one you watch. For instance, sometimes you keep going
with rising and falling; it's very clear. At that time you don't care about any sounds you may
hear. Even if the "actor" called emotion arises you don't care, you're not interested.

When you see a play, you let the actors perform until they have finished their lines. Then they
leave the stage by themselves. You don't worry that they will stay onstage forever. It's the same
with emotion, or wandering mind, or sleepiness. As all of these things are happening, just keep
observing the one that is easiest to continue with. Except when you fall asleep; then you don't
have an object to continue with. But it's only for a short time until you wake up. When you
wake up, just start again from that point, all right?

That's the meaning of continuity when practicing mindfulness. Don't lose double. When the
mind wanders you have lost once already; that is, you have lost the object that you were
observing - rising-falling, for instance. But when you become angry that the mind has
wandered, when you think, "Why does this happen when I try to keep continuity? Why am I
practicing incorrectly?" you have lost twice. You lose double. [The longer you worry about
losing mindfulness, the more objects slip by unnoticed. The more moments you have "lost."]
That creates more and more space between moments of mindfulness. The gap during which
delusion takes place becomes wider and wider. That's what it means to lose continuity.

Good or Bad Feelings

Good or bad feelings cannot approve our practice. Some meditators make the mistake of feeling
happy when a period of sitting is nice and quiet and they don't have wandering mind. They
think, 'Wow, now I'm a good, successful meditator. I don't mind that I came here. I'm getting a
lot of benefit." But the next sitting isn't the same. Maybe their minds wander a lot and they
think, "Oh, this is terrible. Maybe meditation cannot help me." They are disappointed and sad.
Maybe they lose confidence and energy. That's wrong view. They don't understand that
everything is impermanent. Even if the sitting is good this time, it has to end; and when good
ends, bad occurs. The end of good is bad. When the next sitting is bad, why worry? Bad has to
have an end. Maybe the next sitting will be good. Even if it isn't, that's ok. It cannot be bad the
whole day, right? You have to have good sometimes, have to have quiet or calmness sometimes.
But when the mind is calm or peaceful, don't attach, because it cannot last too long, cannot last
all day. Sometimes practice will be bad. So do not worry about good or bad.

A student that I was interviewing said to me, "Oh, it is very good. My mind is calm. I have
strong concentration. I feel happy and peaceful." But I told him, "Bad." [Laughs.] "No good."
Because, when you attach with peacefulness, how can you kill the defilements? How can you
see what [unwholesome] emotions are still there? "That's ignorance," I said. Like the snake in
the anthill - if it doesn't come out, how can you kill it? How can you know how many snakes
are in the anthill? You cannot know. You cannot know and you cannot kill them. So you are
always afraid when you pass the anthill, afraid that the snake will come out.

So don't worry or think that you need strong concentration when you practice insight
meditation. Insight meditation is for shaking delusion and emotion to make them arise more
and more - that's good. It's good for mindfulness to have an object. It's good for your practice. If
there's no object, how can mindfulness grow? Wandering mind and emotions are food for
mindfulness. By ordinary truth, you see a beautiful picture or an ugly picture; you hear a
beautiful voice singing or you hear bad words. All of these objects around you are food for
defilements. They are the food of greed, of hatred or of delusion.

But rising-falling, sitting, standing, consciousness objects, wandering mind, feeling or emotion
- all of these are the food of mindfulness. When the body has enough food it becomes strong.
Same thing: when mindfulness has a lot of food, has many things to eat, it becomes strong.
Then, instead of feeding the defilements, we're feeding mindfulness, you see? That's why - don't
be afraid of the food for mindfulness. Let mindfulness "eat" wandering mind or emotion or
every kind of object. Mindfulness has to have an object to focus on, food to eat; and it has to
have experience with eating these things.

Moggallana

Moggallana was the left-hand disciple of Lord Buddha. When he was practicing for seven days
he fell asleep all the time. Sometimes he'd wake up a little but then fall asleep again. He used a
lot of energy to fight with sleepiness. But when sleepiness was too strong he had to use stronger
energy to get mindfulness strong too, to make it go up to the same level as sleepiness, so as to
balance with that hindrance, until mindfulness, energy and concentration could grow stronger
than sleepiness. They could control it, could focus on sleepiness as an object and see it arising
and passing away, because it had no power to stay. Mindfulness was stronger. He could see
sleepiness arise and fall away until he could see impermanence, suffering and nonself clearly.
He became enlightened.

When he became enlightened he had a strong mind with very strong psychic powers because
he'd had a strong partner to fight with. Like a person who wants to be a boxing champion; he
finds many sparring partners to fight with until he becomes strong enough to win every match.
In the same way, right mindfulness can have many, many sparring partners to fight with, to
test it. If you understand this you can continue in every moment, with every object, all the time,
from the first thing in the morning until you go to bed, except when you're sleeping for five or
six hours. If you continue practicing mindfulness until the moment of falling asleep, you will
not lose continuity. When you wake up you start from that moment. You have to continue
again as if there were no daytime or nighttime. Mindfulness will continue all the time. In that
way you will not give a gap for delusion.

Sometimes mindfulness can stay in the sleep level, too, but it's not strong enough. If it were
strong you would be an arahant [one who has reached the highest level of enlightenment and
is entirely free of greed, hatred and delusion]. Even when asleep, arahants are mindful.
Becoming an arahant is the result of continuing to practice from moment-to-moment. When
we have not reached that level yet we think it's impossible. But when we reach that level we
will see that it is possible.

I mentioned about myself. [Before practicing insight meditation] I believed that it was
impossible to forget my name unless I was crazy. But I wasn't crazy. Why couldn't I answer
when someone called my name? Because mindfulness separated ultimate truth and was not
interested in ordinary truth. It just kept observing ultimate truth all the time very fast. So I
could not answer or feel happy when someone saw me or called me. [Sopako Bhikkhu is
referring to an experience he had during a seven-month vipassana retreat. Some friends were
calling his name, trying to get his attention. His mindfulness was so strong, however, that he
couldn't answer them. Why not? Because he was hearing the sound of his own name purely as
sound, without recognizing its conventional meaning. Mindfulness was so sharp that it
disregarded the conventional and kept tracking only pure phenomena. He was aware of
"hearing," but not the conventional meaning of the sound waves. That is what it means to "just
hear," or "just see." Even when he had the impulse to answer his friends, mindfulness kept
bringing him back to the immediate now, kept cutting off the impulse before he could act upon
it. Nor could he "feel happy" because mindfulness cut off every emotion before it could develop.
Before taking up meditation practice, however, he would have thought it impossible not to
recognize one's own name. Incidentally, his ability to understand conventional speech returned
as soon as mindfulness went down.]

Continuity is Possible

So continuity is possible. Everything is possible if you try to separate [ultimate truth from
conventional] all the time. What does "separate" mean? For example, when doing the hand
movements, try to forget about the hand [Bhikkhu Sopako is referring to a meditation exercise
that uses hand motions. See, "How to Meditate."] Just keep observing the object [motion] all the
time. It is the moment-to-moment of moving, not of the hand. If you focus on the hand, that
means that you only have concentration. It is no different from repeating a mantra [a sacred
word or phrase used as a meditation object] - you only get concentration, not wisdom. You
cannot get ultimate truth from memorizing a mantra. That's why I say that some techniques
from Tibet that use mantras, or some Hindu techniques where they memorize a sutra, a mantra
or a kasina - all these are only for developing concentration, because they do not have a
complete object, they do not observe nama [mind] and rupa [object] in the present moment. It
is not a direct way to ultimate truth.

In these [concentration] techniques one observes ordinary [conventional] truth: the name of the
thing, the name of the sutra, the name of the Buddha. Like "Buddho." They breathe in "Bud,"
breathe out, "dho." "Buddho, Buddho." [This is a concentration technique where one repeats the
Buddha's name over and over.] Something like that, right? Or even the technique where you
concentrate on a Buddha statue in front of you, looking at the Buddha's shape until you have
deep concentration. Consciousness attaches with the object, the Buddha image. But the Buddha
image is ordinary truth. It is the name of the material. But when they make the material into
the shape of a Buddha image, whether a Thai style or Japanese style or Chinese style Buddha,
that's ordinary truth. When we meditate on ordinary truth objects we get no more than
concentration [i.e., not wisdom, not enlightenment].

When you separate your mind from ordinary truth there will be ultimate truth: just seeing. Not
seeing a Buddha image. Just seeing color. What is it that sees? Nama sees. Not "I am seeing."
Rupa is the object of seeing. The act of seeing means that nama and rupa appear or make
contact in the present moment, together, right now. Mindfulness can stay in the moment of
rupa and nama; it can be aware of the bare phenomenon of seeing that arises when looking at
[what is conventionally called] the Buddha image. That's the meaning of ultimate truth.
Ultimate truth is the correct path, the path of wisdom, the eightfold path. It is the only way, the
one way, to nibbana.

So think about how you can continue with ultimate truth, how you can keep going from
moment-to-moment observing nama and rupa. If you can separate [nama and rupa from
conventional reality] it is easy to practice anywhere, anytime. At home or in the forest or in the
town. You can practice the right way or the right path anywhere, all right?

If you don't understand, if you cannot separate, then you mix it; sometimes insight meditation
becomes tranquility practice. How can you get a result? You just feel peaceful or joyful
sometimes when concentration goes deeper. But sometimes you go to insight. You feel that
things are impermanent, you feel sad or afraid. You see impermanence, suffering or nonself
sometimes, but you cannot continue by ultimate truth too long because you cannot maintain
continuity. Sometimes it changes to tranquility, sometimes back to insight - back and forth like
this. That's why the meditator should feel differently. Just keep going one way.

If you keep going by ordinary truth [as in concentration meditation] you will get a deeper and
deeper feeling of peace and happiness from concentration until you enter a trance. But if you
keep going only by ultimate truth [insight meditation], a certain kind of feeling should arise in
you step-by-step, from the first until the sixteenth level of insight knowledge, until nibbana.
That's why we need to separate the object exactly.

If you cannot separate, you just go back and forth; sometimes you label the object because you
need more concentration. Technically, that means that you have a tranquility [concentration]
object; but it's tranquility in insight, because you don't keep to one object like you do when
concentrating on the Buddha image or a kasina or a mantra.

Then [in the latter cases] you have the same object always. That's pure tranquility. But when
you keep labeling rising-falling, or sitting, or label wandering mind or an emotion that comes
up, that's tranquility in insight meditation. Until you give up the mental note, then you'll be
practicing pure insight. Now it's not really pure, I know; not really pure now. Until I interview
you, then I will know who is pure [who is practicing pure insight]! Pure or not I will know, all
right? [Laughter.] Do you have any more questions?

Meditator #1: Could you show us how to move the hands between postures for continuity?
[Bhikkhu Sopako demonstrates the hand movement and placement to be done between
postures. This technique prevents loss of mindfulness during transitions.]

Interview with Meditators

Interview with Meditators

Note: We have referred to Bhikkhu Sopako as "Achan" here, since that is how the meditators
address him. "Achan" is a title meaning "teacher."

Achan: Marie, how is your practice?

Marie: I seem to be having some problems balancing energy and concentration. Because I have
problems with restlessness - which would be low concentration? Then I seem to have periods
where I'm drowsy. So is it a balance of energy and concentration that I'm having a problem
with?

Achan: What do you mean, "balance of energy and concentration"?

Marie: Well I don't know, but that's what you were talking about last night. Restlessness is from
too much energy?

Achan: Yes.

Marie: I'm trying too hard, is that it?

Achan: Yes, yes. When you force energy too much, when concentration is not balanced, then
wandering mind has a chance to go out, to think, because you force it. An easy example: if you
take care of two or three children, if they are naughty, when you force them: "Stay there! Don't
do that!" you make them react and fight with you more, right? They won't come to you. But if
you just let them play, just watch to make sure they don't do anything dangerous, it makes
them calm down. They play, and when they're tired they just stop by themselves.

Marie: It's hard to sit and watch restlessness without trying to get rid of it.

Achan: You don't have to try hard. When you have the present-moment object from rising-
falling or from sitting or another object, don't worry about restlessness. You still feel restless but
it does not bother you - it will not prevent mindfulness from continuing, all right? It cannot
stop you from walking on the right path of mindfulness at all. So don't care about that.

Marie: Well, I seem to have mindfulness about it but I just need to probably not worry about it
too much and just let it go.

Achan: Yes, let it go.

Marie: But that's the only problem I'm having.

Achan: That's all right. Like I always say, as long as mindfulness has an object to continue with,
don't care about the other objects [that appear]. Like when you're moving both hands: if you
focus on one hand - the right hand or the left, it doesn't matter - you shouldn't care about the
other hand because you have an object, one object, already. Same thing: when walking, you
have mindfulness to observe the step-by-step experience of walking, even though you are
seeing sometimes or hearing a sound outside - but you don't care about those other objects.
You don't feel worried or interested, you just keep going, keep walking. Even when you see
something, your attention has not been lost [from the motion of the foot]. Okay; same thing. If
you aren't interested, or if you don't pay attention to restlessness, there's no problem because
mindfulness keeps going with walking, all right?

Marie: Just practice.

Achan: Yes, just practice, just keep going. Don't worry about something else on the side of your
path. Like when you're traveling. While you are traveling, don't care about how beautiful the
view is, or how dangerous some place is, or how good some city is. Just keep going according to
your duty to continue. You will pass some place that has a beautiful view, or some dangerous
place. Somewhere you'll have to climb a mountain, somewhere there'll be a bumpy road. It
doesn't matter. Just drive the car on the middle way. Don't take the left lane, don't take the right
lane. Middle way. Where is the end of the way? If you don't stop, if you don't take the exit on
the right, if you don't care about looking around at both sides of the highway and don't park at
the rest area too long - just stopping to go to the bathroom - [laughter] then it's not too far.

Marie: Thank you.

Achan: You're welcome. How about Katy?

Katy: Well, I'm having a few difficulties in the walking.

Achan: What difficulties?

Katy: It seems that in my mind I'm always ahead of the next movement already.

Achan: What step you do walk?

Katy: I do five.

Achan: Oh, you do five step. So when you do five, do you feel that mindfulness goes faster than
the object?

Katy: Yes.

Achan: You need to label the object, all right? Don't just do it. You have to go back to the label.

Katy: I do label. . .

Achan: You do label. When you label, mindfulness cannot slow down, right? [Laughs.] How do
you label. . .

Katy: Um. . . do you want me to show you?

Achan: Yes.

Katy: All right. I can do that. So I just say, "raising, lifting, forward, lowering and placing" and it
seems that when I have my foot down I'm thinking already. . . it's going in my mind. . . it seems
to go too fast. . .

Achan: Oh. That's all right. You just need more practice. It doesn't mean that mindfulness is
faster than concentration. "You need more practice" means that you are acting from habit.
When placing one foot, the other heel is up already. That's habit, experience in daily life from
the time you were born and grew up until now. So, when you try to walk step-by-step, when
you place one foot, the other heel goes up already, automatically. You just have to take time and
practice more.

Katy: I understand.
Achan: Don't worry that you've lost mindfulness. When you realize, when you know that you're
placing one foot and the other heel goes up, you haven't lost mindfulness. Mindfulness will still
know this one, too, it's just that it can't control the habit only. How about sitting?

Katy: In the sitting I'm trying to give my mind a few little vacations and not get angry about it,
and not really wanting for the mind to come back. . . I'm watching it more and not getting
anxious about it. . . it feels better. I have some good sittings and some satisfactory sittings or
what I consider okay. When the mind wanders I'm aware of it but I don't get excited about it. . .

Achan: How many steps of sitting are you doing?

Katy: I'm just doing rising and falling.

Achan: Need more. Add more steps to sitting, all right? Because, when you just have rising and
falling, it's not enough work for mindfulness. It can give a chance for emotion to show off
during sitting, right? Just like when you're not busy, when you don't have a job to do, some
kind of emotion can happen in your mind in the moment. That's why you should provide more
objects for mindfulness to continue with, to keep it busy. When the mind is busy there's no time
to think about something else, all right? Just add one more step. Peter. How about you?

Peter: It seems to be ok. Sitting is changeable but clear, and I'm not trying too hard and uh . . .
just rising-falling.

Achan: Do you know rising-falling automatically or do you have to concentrate to see it?

Peter: I have to bring myself back to it regularly, but when I've brought it back I don't have to
struggle to attend to it. . .

Achan: That's correct. . . that's right. . . and how many steps do you do?

Peter: Rising-falling, just two. . .

Achan: And you don't label the word?

Peter: No.

Achan: And how long do you sit - forty minutes? [Peter nods.] You sit forty minutes. How often
do you lose mindfulness? How many times have you lost mindfulness in forty minutes?
Peter: I haven't stop to count [laughter]. . .

Achan: [Laughing] it doesn't matter to count. Just estimate about how often. . . more than
twenty times or something like that, or less. . .

Peter: It depends on the sitting. . . I just keep not answering your question. . . [laughter]
sometimes ten times. . .

Achan: Do you feel that sometimes it hasn't been lost at all? Have you had an experience like
this or not? That you don't lose it at all?

Peter: Yeah sometimes, but not for forty minutes. . . I have always lost mindfulness, you can
trust me on this. . .

Unidentified voice: He always loses it at least once. [Laughter.]

Peter: But sometimes I'm not always attending to rising and falling but I'm also mindful of noise
and emotion and even, sort of, second order kind of objects. . .

Achan: Yes. That's not the meaning of losing mindfulness. I ask how you feel, how often or how
many times you have lost mindfulness when sitting forty or forty-five minutes. Even when
wandering mind appears, when you know it, you can continue or focus and forget it. Even
when some noise comes up and you know it, you can focus on it. You can focus on noise or
emotion. When you "lose" mindfulness you know. That means it isn't lost. You haven't lost
mindfulness. If you sit for forty minutes and you have an object all the time, right, even if you
fall asleep sometimes, you wake up and you know; you keep going, you continue; that means
you have not lost mindfulness. Losing mindfulness means that you feel you do not have an
object to keep going. You give a gap too long until you think, "I don't know what objects
appeared or when I lost track, when I lost mindfulness." After you lose mindfulness you "wake
up" and wonder, "How can I return to rising-falling? What should I begin with?" Or something
like that. You feel confused. You've lost the way, lost the moment, all right? Is that clear or not?

Peter: I think I know what it means.

Achan: Yeah, sometimes that has to happen to you. That's the meaning of "lost." Sometimes it's
like you fall asleep, but you don't really. But rising-falling is very subtle, very deep until you
cannot see rising-falling and you stay for awhile and wake up and you are surprised yourself
about what's wrong, what happened, why you didn't continue observing. That's the meaning of
lost. You cannot find out the object from moment-to-moment. Even the object is sometimes
lost. Sometimes it cannot be seen.

Peter: I don't think it's been too subtle. Never been that deep.

Achan: I just gave an example. Someone has the experience, when their concentration is
stronger than mindfulness, that it's easy to be lost. If you have mindfulness always, then it isn't
lost. Even if wandering mind or some other object comes, it is the duty of mindfulness to know
and focus on it. That doesn't mean that you've lost mindfulness. Anything else? Oh, walking?

Peter: Four steps. Goes well.

Achan: Very well, right? And you label the word?

Peter: No I'm not labeling. No - just once in awhile, very, very lightly.

Achan: You have to go to five step; that's all right.

Peter: I think I cheated a bit last time and I was doing five steps a little bit last walking.

Achan: You can go up; you can decide by yourself. That's not wrong. [Laughter.] It doesn't
matter to get permission from the teacher or wait for the teacher to give it to you. Because you
have the duty to practice. If you can continue with the next level you can go up. But if you go
up and lose mindfulness often then you can go back to four or three step. It doesn't matter. Just
practicing.

Peter: If mindfulness feels a little weak then go back to two or three?

Achan: Yes. Go back to two or three step and so change the object. Or try standing or doing the
hand motions. There are many ways to use skillful means to make mindfulness awake or
strong. When it's weak it's like a child who's gotten tired of a toy. When it plays too long it's
tired or bored, so you have to change to something new to make it happy or active or bring a
strong feeling back again. Something like that, right? It's the same with mindfulness. When you
keep going with the same object too long it makes it weak and tired. Mindfulness wants to stop;
but when you change the object a little bit it makes it strong again.
Peter: If energy is lacking, if energy is low, you use initial and applied thought, investigation?
When energy is low what are skillful means for helping to continue?

Achan: When energy is low right? You should stay on one object and use labeling. Try to make
concentration stronger because it can help energy to become strong again.

Peter: When you label?

Achan: Yeah, when you label. If you're walking four or five step go back to three or two step
with the label. Or just do rising-falling. Go back to the beginning to have concentration first.
After that, energy will come. Anything else?

Peter: Thank you.

Achan: All right; Ron.

Ron: I was just very restless earlier during the day, lost in a lot of thought. And after lunch I sat
for a longer period of time and, like Peter, I didn't stay with the breath. I don't stay with the rise
and fall very long . . . but it's more interesting when other things happened like sound or
thought . . . and I follow what's happening there but I get lost most of the time . . . I come back
to the breath eventually but I find that the secondary objects are much easier.

Achan: That's all right. If you know there is restlessness or if you know the mind is wandering
to see some object outside and can come back, back and forth, that's all right.

Ron: The breath isn't really clear.

Achan: That means you need concentration. When mindfulness cannot stay in the moment-to-
moment with the breath, you can get many, many objects around you. But if concentration is
strong it works with mindfulness to make the object very clear. And if you go back to the
breath, that will be very clear, too. When mindfulness observes some object outside [such as a
sound, sight, etc.] and then goes back to the main object [rising-falling, posture, movement of
the foot, and so on], if it's not quite clear, that means that concentration is not quite balanced
yet. If it's balanced, then it will be equally clear whether you're observing an object outside or
rising-falling. That's to test how concentration can work with mindfulness or balance with
mindfulness or not. You have to know - when you jump to this object to that object or that
moment [i.e., jumping from one "outside" object to another] until nothing else appears and you
go back to here [rising-falling], if it's not quite clear, then that means you have to practice
more. You need more time to continue and it will adjust or balance after that. All right. That's
good. Lisa.

Lisa: Very good, Achan. You're getting better [referring to his pronunciation]. Since I talked to
you yesterday and had some instruction from you, my mindfulness on the rising-falling of the
abdomen is much easier, not so difficult. And I'm not fighting with myself, not giving myself
mental slaps for going away. I'm being easier on myself. The walking: I'm doing four steps and
labeling each step. And sometimes I feel that I want to add another step. So I think I need to go
to one more step next time I walk. . .

Achan: Now you walk four step, right?

Unidentified voice: She keeps wanting to put in "intending" before the step. . .

Achan: That's uh. . . just greed! [laughter.]

Lisa: That's me. . . wanting, wanting, wanting. . .

Achan: Desire. Don't follow it, don't follow desire, don't follow greed, all right? Because greed
never stops. It never fills up. That's why - if the body needs food, we have to eat. But if the mind
is hungry - don't eat, because the mind is never full. It's the same thing. You want to get more
steps, want to get something more, want to be successful or something like that. That's desire.
Don't follow it. Don't listen. Don't want, don't need that. If you keep practicing four steps and
it's very clear, if you can make it clear, not just if you can focus, but have to see clearly about
arising and passing away, to see that each step is impermanence, suffering or nonself. . . if you
can make it more clear until you feel bored sometimes, or afraid or sad or happy with seeing
clearly, that's correct. . . that will mean very sharp knowledge with the moment-to-moment
experience of each step. Even if someone keeps practicing two or three step, if he can see the
truth of impermanence, suffering and nonself clearly, then it's not important to go up to four or
five or six step because the mind is balanced with knowledge. Something like that. I mean, you
don't have to need more. Just practice until what you're doing is clear from the level you're at
until you can end doubt in your mind. "Oh, I see that! Oh, I don't feel confused!" Or, "I don't
have doubt anymore from the truth I see now." Something like that. If you don't see clearly,
you'll still have doubt in your mind. You want to see the next step, to find out if it is the same as
this step or not. You want to see something else, to see if it is different or the same. That means
doubt, you see? [If one could see the present experience clearly, one would have no desire to
see anything further. There would be no need for clarification.] Try to practice on the level you
are at now, from moment-to-moment, until you see clearly, until you make sure about that
level first. After that I will know how to give you more objects, all right? Anything else? That's
good, that's good. Just keep going. Don't care about five step or six step. Enlightenment doesn't
come from five or six step! It comes from seeing clearly. You'll destroy doubt in your mind only
by doing it correctly. The step-by-step technique is just for practicing, for balancing for
someone. If a meditator is up and down, if energy, concentration and mindfulness are not
balanced, then the person should practice the step-by-step technique, back and forth. If
someone is balanced enough, he can just keep focusing in the moment. It doesn't matter how
many steps. No big deal, all right? Not a big deal about that. That's why, just try to keep going
or continue. Ok . . . Elaine - sleepy always! [Laughs.]

Elaine: Well, I feel the walking is going well. I'm doing five steps. And I can be quite focused on
that and I haven't been labeling. But when I come to sit it isn't clear, it isn't focused and . . . I
don't feel that I'm concentrated. I'm doing the rising-falling and sitting and I'm having to find
that I have to label that just to keep awake. Otherwise even if I stray a little bit I'm nodding off
and I'm sleeping or sleepy. . . Well it's quite a struggle and that's what I find so strange. The
walking can be quite clear but the sitting is just the opposite. So I was doing more walking
because I thought that maybe that would carry over into my sitting but it doesn't seem to
matter.

Achan: You say the sitting is not quite clear. . .

Elaine: Well, I guess I'm comparing it to the way it is sometimes when you're quite concentrated
on your breathing and your mind doesn't wander very much and you don't even have to label
the breathing, it's just there, and your mind's just watching it and it doesn't seem to be very
difficult. Whereas, today it just isn't as concentrated or I'm just not. . . it's a struggle to be
watching your breath and watching it closely. . . is it okay the way it is or is there something I
should be doing to make the sitting more concentrated? I feel like I'm sleepy.

Achan: You're asking whether, when you feel sleepy, you need to set up more concentration?
Sure. Try to go back to label the object with mental notes or try to wake mindfulness up.
Mindfulness needs support to focus on sleepiness. Have to put energy to do and have to label
the word to make concentration and energy stronger. That can help mindfulness focus on
sleepiness. If mindfulness isn't strong enough, you have to change position, have to walk. You
don't have to stay in the group, all right? In case mindfulness cannot focus on the object
"sleepiness," or isn't strong enough to stay with the object, not just sleepiness - wandering mind
or some strong emotion - if these are stronger than mindfulness, you don't need to stay in the
same posture. You don't need to stay with one posture or one object; you have to change to
another object. You have to walk; if that doesn't help, if you're still drowsy, you can try to walk
faster. Use clear comprehension to observe while you walk faster. After that you can return to
the moment-to-moment technique. That's all right. But even when the object is stronger than
mindfulness, mindfulness is still there, it's not totally lost; it just cannot keep observing from
moment-to-moment.

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