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Harold in CR Speed of Banki Turbine

Jr. Member « on: August 18, 2010, 07:25:38 AM »

Posts: 75

I have read a lot of threads about the Banki Turbines that were built and used. I have
never seen info on the RPM's available ?? Has anyone ever taken readings of the RPM's ??

I have a neighbor, with 60 GPM of water at 30' of fall. YES, I did measure with the 5 gallon
bucket shoved under the 4" outlet pipe in the concrete dam.

I have studied several designs of Mitchell-Banki turbines, and have decided to try the
Ossberger design. It fully utilizes ALL the water from the input, unlike most homebuilt units,
that spray water over the top of the turbine.

I am thinking about using an alternator at 2KW. It will be self excited, so, no need for
external excitation. The Alternator is 1800 RPM rated. Gearing is possible, although I would
prefer to not have to use it, if possible. An induction motor, at under 1000 RPM's, might be
another option. Would need to apply external voltage, maybe a 12 Volt battery and inverter
??, to excite the motor, once up to speed ?? Is this even possible ??

I am trying to design a water control device, to regulate the cycles or voltage to keep
within the 120-240V range. So far, a governing device has not been decided on. I was
thinking about a linear actuator, that would open and close a sliding valve, or, open and
close a ball valve. It would need to be activated by the Alternator, with an electronic
monitoring device. It may be a little slow to operate, but, should work well, with plenty of
power.

According to my calculations using several different calculation sites, there should be

between 1-2 KW of power available, IF I can control every drop and use the governing
system.

Anyone feel like commenting on this project ??

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XXLRay Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 09:20:59 AM »

Posts: 32
Rounds[1/min] = (Waterspeed[m/s] x 60s) / (2 x PI x Banki-Radius[m])

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Ungrounded Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Lightning Rod « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 09:53:56 AM »
SuperHero Member

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Posts: 2549 Quote from: XXLRay on August 18, 2010, 09:20:59 AM

Rounds[1/min] = (Waterspeed[m/s] x 60s) / (2 x PI x Banki-Radius[m])

I think that's wrong. It looks like you're assuming the banki spins with the edge at the
speed of the incoming water. (TSR = 1 in wind turbine speak.) That would be right for an
optimized overshot wheel, but...

As I understand it a crossflow slows the water by only about 50% as it enters and another
about 50% as it leaves, so cut that in half. (TSR = 0.5) Then take it down a tad more.
(The mill isn't 100% efficient and the water needs some velocity when it leaves.)

(Also: Note that "waterspeed" is the speed of the water as it leaves the jet. Figure that as
the speed it would be traveling if it had fallen from the height of the head.)

« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 09:56:38 AM by Ungrounded

Lightning Rod » Logged

damian Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2010, 12:27:49 PM »

Posts: 12
Just to try to get a handle on the power available, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong
here, but my math looks like this:

60 GPM x 8.3 lbs./gallon = 498 lbs./minute x 30 feet = 14,940 ft. lbs./minute

1 Kw = 44,253 ft. lbs./minute

So power available is 14,940/44,253 = 0.3376 Kw

That is the total, less efficiencies of all components.

So maybe shooting for 100-200 watts is more realistic?

Damian

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Harold in CR Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Jr. Member « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 03:53:45 PM »

Posts: 75

YUP, yer correct. I messed up the conversions.

The Ossberger states up to 80% efficiency is VERY attainable. Still not a lot of power,
though.

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damian Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 07:36:20 PM »

Posts: 12

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Well, on the other hand, hydro is 24 hours per day, seven days a week.

0.2 Kilowatts x 24 x 30 = 144 Kwh/month.

Damian

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XXLRay Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 02:13:04 AM »

Posts: 32
Quote from: Ungrounded Lightning Rod on August 18, 2010, 09:53:56 AM
I think that's wrong. It looks like you're assuming the banki spins with the edge at the speed of the incoming water. (TSR
= 1 in wind turbine speak.) That would be right for an optimized overshot wheel, but...
You are absolutely right. I totally forgot to add the speed factor. After some research I
found out that it seems to be 0.45 for crossflow turbines like banki/ossberger are. Thus the
formula should be:

Rounds[1/min] = (Waterspeed[m/s] x 60s x 0.45) / (2 x PI x Banki-Radius[m])

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Harold in CR Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Jr. Member « Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 05:25:48 AM »

Posts: 75

Does anyone know how to size one of these things, to take full advantage of the water
supply ??

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XXLRay Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 07:00:00 AM »

Posts: 32

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You need to know Head, Water-Throughput and the rotational speed of your generator. All
in metric values for the following formulas. Just paste your data and calculate your way
through.

Head[m] = measure!

Throughput[l/s] = measure!

Generator-Rounds[1/min] = measure!

Crossflow Turbine Spinfactor = 0.45

Water-Speed[m/s] = √(2 x Gravity[m/s²] x Head[m]) = calculate!

Banki-Radius[m] = (Water-Speed[m/s] x 60s x Spinfactor) / (2 x PI x Rounds[1/min]) =

calculate!

For the noozle:

Noozle-Area[m²] = Throughput[m³/s] / Water-Speed[m/s] = Throughput[l/s] / (Water-

Speed[m/s] x 1000) = calculate!

Banki-Circumfence[m] = 2 x PI x Banki-Radius[m] = calculate!

Noozle-Length[m] = Banki-Circumfence[m] / 4 = calculate!

Noozle-Width[m] = Noozle-Area[m²] / Noozle-Length[m] = calculate!

I don't know how to calculate the amount and size of blades. Perhaps someone else can
provide the formulas.

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robl Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #9 on: August 19, 2010, 04:32:22 PM »

Posts: 33
All the formulas and a set of Excel macros can be found on the "micro-hydro power" group
on Yahoo. It also has a pdf of the original design manual of the Michell-banki (Ossberger
variant). I have been running a 22 runner Banki turbine for about 20 years. Width is 7",
diameter is 12", turbine rpm is around 300. Gearbelt drive to 1200 RPM induction motor
running C/2C. Output is around 650 watts/240V/60HZ with about 20 feet of head. Don't
recall the GPM's. I have a short (and crappy) video of the rig here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xn1cz3F4Q0

Regards

Rob

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ghurd Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Global Moderator « Reply #10 on: August 19, 2010, 04:43:48 PM »
Super Hero Member
Plus

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Posts: 6934 Quote from: robl on August 19, 2010, 04:32:22 PM

I have a short (and crappy) video of the rig here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xn1cz3F4Q0

Regards

Rob

Sweet!
G-

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robl Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #11 on: August 19, 2010, 05:06:02 PM »

Posts: 33
Thank you Ghurd,

Just for the record, it was this group that helped me convert to the induction generator a
few years ago. Prior to that the rig was powering an ancient 1200 RPM 120VDC compound
wound dc motor.

Rob

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Harold in CR Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Jr. Member « Reply #12 on: August 19, 2010, 06:47:05 PM »

Posts: 75

AhhhhhhHAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaa This is exactly what I have been looking for.

Youtube is not a reliable viewing source, with my limited Internet access.

You have provided MUCH info for me, and your video was perfect for me to try to replicate
your turbine.

Did you put in a flow divider, like the Ossberger, to split the flow or input water, to get
more fins in contact with the water ?? Did you build the nozzle like the Ossberger, to MAKE
the water build a slightly more pressure, as it runs around the inside of the housing ??

Could you elaborate a little on how you rigged up the motor as a generator ??

This is exactly what I want to carry around and set up at various locations, to actually
measure the amount of power I can obtain at different areas along a stream.

THANK YOU for posting this info. I really appreciate your knowledge and input. Harold

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XXLRay Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 12:56:21 AM »

Posts: 32
It hink the pdf is "The Banki Turbine" by C. A. Muckmoore and Fred Merryfield
http://agungchynta.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/crossflow-turbine.pdf

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XXLRay Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Newbie « Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 05:34:36 AM »

Posts: 32
You might also find important information in "Blade calculation for water turbines og the
Banki type" by P. Verhaart: http://alexandria.tue.nl/repository/books/19153.pdf

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Harold in CR Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Jr. Member « Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 06:30:53 AM »

Posts: 75

You guys just don't realize how much help you are. I don't speak "Computereze", so,
when I search, I NEVER get the results y'all get.

I am drawing out the type of Turbine I will build, and, when I have it working, will post
every bit of info on here.

Now to find info for the most efficient-durable generator. Battery systems are more costly.
AC systems are more technical. Some situations may require one or the other, so, back to
searching.

I expect to test many streams at many locations, so, accurate flow rates and output will be
recorded.

THANK YOU to all those that take the time to help us less "Computerized" folk.

XXLRay, excellent links. Thanks ALL

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jlt Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Full Member « Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 08:13:02 AM »

Posts: 206
http://h-hydro.com/index.html You might look at this site It has info on expected rpm and
output power. although It is not a banki turbine It would work for you.

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Harold in CR Re: Speed of Banki Turbine

Jr. Member « Reply #17 on: August 20, 2010, 11:28:40 AM »

Posts: 75

Thanks. That site I have bookmarked and have used their calculator.

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