An Interview with Carol Ann Tomlinson

(Interviewed on behalf of NAJP by)

Robin A. Wells & Michael F. Shaughnessy

Eastern New Mexico University
Carol Ann Tomlinson is perhaps the most influential figure in the area of differentiated instruction. She is the author of over 200 articles, book chapters and books, including How to Differentiate Instruction in Mixedability Classrooms and The Differentiated Classroom: Responding to the Needs of all Learners. She is co-author of The Parallel Curriculum Model: A Design to Develop High Potential and Challenge High Ability Learners. Her books have been translated into 12 languages.

NAJP: How did you arrive at your philosophy and/or skills at teaching using a differentiated approach? CT: In my first high school teaching experience, I was aware of student differences, I think all teachers are; it just never occurred to me that I needed to do anything about them. My second teaching experience was directing a child development center, and there too, because we had many pupils in second-language groups, with many different kinds of backgrounds, it was very clear to me that the kids had differences. It was my third teaching job, which is the one I stayed in for 20 years, which really made it necessary, even for a young teacher, who didnt have too much context yet, to figure out that I had to do something! I was in a school and my 7th grade students were very bimodal-- 45% or 50% of them were 3 or more years below grade level in reading in the 7th grade, and probably 45% were 3 or more years above grade level in reading in grade 7, and almost nobody in that gap in the middle. NAJP: As schools are becoming more inclusive for kids with disabilities, what are your recommendations for higher education in preservice education of future educators to develop teaching skills which meet the needs of all learners? CT: One of the things that I have found is that we continue to try to fix the classroom by specialty. Higher education needs to help pre-service and in-service teachers learn how to think about teaching flexibly, so we understand how to teach kids with disabilities, kids who are advanced, with students who come from low-income backgrounds, kids who are
Author info: Correspondence should be sent to: Dr. Michael Shaughnessy, Dept. of Psychology, Eastern New Mexico University, Portales, NM 88130 North American Journal of Psychology, 2010, Vol. 12, No. 1, 643-648. NAJP

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English language learners, kids with reading problems, and how to do so in a single setting. Another of my beliefs is that we need folks in preservice education who, themselves, have either taught in effectively differentiated classrooms or who are now courageous enough to learn to teach that way with their own studentswho model that kind of flexibility for their university students. In the places where the conditions I just mentioned are being met, not only do the students leave with a sense that thats what they have to do to be good teachers, but they actually have a good deal of skill and confidence in working with student variety. I think we need to retool what were doing in pre-service education as drastically as we are asking teachers to retool whats done in their classrooms. NAJP: Would it be fair to say that pre-service folks need to know how to meet the individual needs of the students in their classroom, and, by doing that, there would be flexibility in instruction? CT: Thats a bit of a different question. What youre saying is certainly important, but I have met many teachers who actually even expected me to come and observe their differentiation who never got to it that day. In other words, they think about attending to the needs of specific students, but it doesnt happen. When Ive talked with those folks, and said to them, Tell me what you did today to reach out to different students? theyll honestly say, I just didnt do very much of that today. Ive learned to say, If you had, tell me what it might have looked like. What might you have done to address varying student needs? They can explain to me, very accurately and reasonably, what the class would have looked like if they had attended to student differences. They understand what to do with an English language learner and a student with a learning disability who both have vocabulary difficulty, and they can explain to me a thing that would be reasonable to do with a student who has already mastered material. The hang-up is, they arent comfortable enough with managing that classroom to do the things that they can envision, and I think the management piece is the barrier. We worry about how to make that happen, about chaos breaking out, about issues of fairness. In general, my answer to you is, No. Just because we have specialty classes in how to teach students with learning disabilities or how to teach reading in the content areas, or how to challenge advanced learners does not mean we will go forth and differentiate instruction. NAJP: How can higher ed faculty untrained in differentiation increase their capacity to be more accommodating or to reach out to students with diverse skills in their classes?

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CT: Its really important in the first setting I talked about that professors differentiate in their own classes. They actually attend to their own students differences. Those faculty members have learned to do that in the same way that teachers have to learn. What are the student needs here relative to our goals? Whats something I can try to ensure that every student learns today? They do that by reading about differentiation. They do that by collaborating around the topic. But they also learn by saying to the pupil, Heres where we need to get, lets talk together about approaches to make sure we all get there? or Here are a couple of choices Ive formulated, what else can you add to that? or Heres an assessment I got back, and it shows me that we have these 2 key needs, so heres how Im going to deal with these,or How did it go for you today? NAJP: How much do philosophy, attitude, and/or knowledge base about diverse learners have to do with the willingness of teachers to meet all learners needs? Do you think that plays a part in this whole notion of meeting diverse learners needs? CT: Its interesting, the things that you ask in that question. Do these things affect outcomes with teachers or willingness to work? I think some of the things you listed do more than others in a way. I see teachers who really have not had very much experience with kids from backgrounds that are different from their own, but those teachers are just flat out determined to make class work for those students. They may, at some point, be clumsy at dealing with differences, but they get the job done, and they learn as they go. I think we hit a wall with the teacher whoand none of us stand in front of a mirror and say thisdont have much belief in some of the kids. We really have what Carol Dweck would call a fixed mindset, and were pretty sure we know whos smart and whos not smart, and we go on teaching the smart kids like theyre smart, but those others, well, we have to take them through the curriculum and stuff, but we dont have blazing expectations, and so, when they dont quite live up to them, thats sort of within our expectation range, so we dont push it too much beyond that. I really do believe that the notion of a persons mindset, in Dwecks terms: fixed or growth mindset, makes a big difference in how we come into the classroom and teach, and I think kids quickly get the message about who we believe in and who we dont. On the other hand, Dwecks work suggests that we can change our mindsets, and so I think an important piece in professional development is to help teachers see kids with different eyes and to help them learn how to succeed with kids that they didnt think could be successful.

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NAJP: As educators, what is our responsibility to create the supportive learning environment where all learners can be successful? CT: As simplistic as it might sound, I think our first obligation is to remember why we decided to teach. Im sure there are probably a few folks who chose that route because it was a convenient career and theres a paycheck. But I think most of us had that moment of time when we entered teaching when we thought we were going to make a difference for human beings. I try to remember that we teach individuals, and to be more reflective on those individuals is valuable: How do I see my pupils as individuals? What else can I learn about them? NAJP: One of the things that concerns me about education is that were given the push to achieve on high stakes testing, and everyone realizes the stress that administrators, teachers, and even the pupils have regarding this, and I sometimes feel that we as educators, how do we take back the reins of education and return to the fun, exciting, enjoyable, and meaningful environment of discovery while still ensuring that all children progress in their learning? Do we need to be thinking of that? CT: In my opinion, we do. I was talking with a colleague last week who is in kinesiology. The content that he teaches is very complex, medical school kind of stuff. He said to me, You know, weve really pretty much quit teaching our students just information. We try to minimize that because every one of us who is honest knows that probably 80-90% of what we teach our students now will be obsolete within five years, and so what we need to teach them is to understand what the issues are and how to use available information to create better information. NAJP: Some students seem to need that highly-structured, rigid consistent approach, while others seem to function well in relaxed environments. Should we be placing children in classrooms that match a teachers style? Is that one of the things that we might need to look for when were placing students in classrooms? CT: I have reservations about that. Our conclusion tends to be that kids who are having a really tough time with school, and who arent learning up to snuff, cant handle flexibility or depth or creativity, and so we put large groups of unsuccessful students in rooms with rigid teachers and assume thats a great match. I think it would be possible to differentiate in a heterogeneous classroom by saying, Some of my students need a lot of structure, and some need less. When I introduce a topic, Im going to create structures, but at the point where I have some students who can

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move ahead on their own, I am going to cut them loose with directions and guidelines, so they can move on. Then Im going to sit with other kids who need more structure and help them develop those structures. For example, I might call them together when theyve been working a while and say, Remind me of the criteria that youre aiming for; show me how youre doing in working toward those criteria. NAJP: Are there children whom youve seen or observed who dont necessarily need differentiated instruction but perhaps more emotional support and affective encouragement, or is that part of differentiation? CT: If you look at differentiation in response to readiness, interest, and/or learning profile, I dont think Ive known many students who werent a little ahead or a little behind sometimes. I certainly have not known students who didnt have particular interests or didnt learn in particular ways. I dont think Ive ever known a student who never needed anything from the teacher except a generic lesson plan to make learning work. On the other hand, I dont think its possible to separate a learners cognition from his or her affect. For many students, its critical to have additional attention affectively, or different attention affectively, or a different kind of emotional environment, or somebody who can help build confidence, or someone who can prove that connecting with adults isnt always hurtful. NAJP: How can teachers incorporate those higher-order thinking skills /critical thinking skills into curricula for learners who may be significantly below average in intelligence? CT: By scaffolding from where a student is toward where youd like them to grow. For example, you might say to some kids, Take those two books we read and compare them to indicate similarities and differences in theme. With another student, you might say something different. In other words, you guide them through the process a step at a time. You model it for them, and you give them examples until they are gradually able to ride the bike without training wheels. NAJP: How does educational software fit into the picture? CT: Again, people use it wisely and poorly, but there are some students, for whom just the presence of a computer to use for writing, as opposed to a pen or pencil, is a big enhancement for learning. The contemporary literacies, and obviously computers, are engaging to some kids in ways that texts never will be. Giving kids the chance to do blogs instead of journals, or video logs instead of paper and pencil story boards would be

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very helpful. There are endless uses for technology, both when we present as teachers and when the students are working independently with things such as the latest technology or the Internet that open the way for more effective teaching and more effective learning. There are also software programs that let kids work with material at different paces, different sizes of print, with and without audio, with translations, with questions at different degrees of difficulty, to let kids move through math with different supports-where the software diagnoses a particular problem that a student has. NAJP: Do you see a need to have classes on individual differences? CT: I think we need to help teachers come to understand individual differences of all sortslearning, cultural, gender, language. Pre-service teachers learn things at the university for which they see no purpose because they have no context for themno understanding of why they matter. Then, many times novice teachers will say, Nobody ever taught me that; I never saw that; The program wasnt useful. It probably wasnt that the information wasnt worthwhile. Its that, until you have a need for to know something, its not meaningful to you. NAJP: Do you have a website, and, if so, what kind of information might be found on there for future reference? CT: The website is: differentiationcentral.com. It has spaces for administrators, teachers, university personnel, resource lists for both of those, examples of differentiation, postings for conferences. One thing I should say is that differentiation really is just good teaching. Its hard to make a case that you wouldnt want teachers to have clear learning outcomes, know where kids are in regard to those outcomes, and adjust the ways they teach and the ways kids can learn when they see the kids need something else to flourish. Thats what were talking about with differentiation. Its not an extra; its just high-quality teaching. REFERENCES
Tomlinson, C. A. (2001). How to Differentiate Instruction in Mixed-ability Classrooms (2nd Ed). Alexandria, Va.: Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development. Tomlinson, C. A. (1999) The Differentiated Classroom: Responding to the Needs of all Learners. Alexandria,Va.: Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development. Tomlinson, C., Kaplan, S., Renzulli, J. Purcell,J., Leppren,J., & Burns,D. (2008). The Parallel Curriculum Model: A Design to Develop High Potential and Challenge High Ability Learners. Thousand Oaks, CA: Corwin Press.

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