Chapter 10

Deposition of Trans Union Employee Regarding Changes in Information in the Credit Reporting Agency File

James A. Francis is a member of Francis & Mailman, P.C., a law firm located in center city Philadelphia, Pennsylvania that concentrates in consumer litigation. The firm was founded in early 1998 with the goal of providing zealous advocacy to consumers subjected to unfair business, industry and trade practices. The firm represents consumers in individual actions, as well as through class action lawsuits, in the areas of unlawful credit reporting and debt collection practices, unfair trade practices, truth-in-lending and other consumer matters. The firms attorneys have significant litigation experience both in federal and state trial courts throughout Pennsylvania. James A. Francis is admitted to practice before the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey, as well as the state courts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. He is a 1992 graduate of Muhlenberg College (B.A., cum laude) and a 1995 graduate of the Temple University Beasley School of Law. While at Temple Law School, he won the 1995 Wapner, Newman & Wigrizer, P.C. award for excellence in civil trial advocacy and was awarded outstanding oral advocacy. Additionally, he served as President of the Student Bar Association from 1994-1995. Following law school, Mr. Francis worked with Kolsby, Gordon, Robin, Shore & Rothweiler in Philadelphia, where his practice was concentrated in catastrophic injury litigation and medical malpractice. Since the formation of Francis & Mailman, P.C. in 1998, he has focused his practice in consumer litigation, with particular concentration in fair credit reporting, fair debt collection practices and consumer class actions. He has tried and successfully litigated cases on behalf of many consumers throughout Pennsylvania. He has been certified to serve as class counsel by state and federal courts in both contested and settlement class actions. These cases include Petrolito v. Arrow Financial Services, LLC, __F.R.D. __, 2004 WL 515761 (D. Conn. 2004); Orloff v. Syndicated Office Systems, Inc., 2004 WL 870691 (E.D. Pa 2004); Bonett v. Education Debt Services, Inc., 2003 WL 21658267 (E.D. Pa. 2003). Notable decisions involving the advancement of consumer rights include Crane v. Trans Union, LLC, 282 F. Supp. 2d 311 (E.D. Pa. 2003)(credit reporting agencies that merely parrot information from credit furnishers and fail to forward dispute documentation face claims for punitive damages under the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA); violation of the FCRA was a violation of Pennsylvanias Consumer Protection Law); Lawrence v. Trans Union, LLC, 296 F. Supp. 2d 582 (E.D. Pa. 2003)(same); Evantash v. G.E. Capital Mortgage Services, Inc.,2003 WL 22844198 (E.D. Pa. 2003)(rejecting technical accuracy defense under the FCRA); Sheffer v. Experian Information Solutions, Inc., 2003 WL 21710573 (E.D. Pa. 2003)(FCRA permits recoverable damage for emotional distress in trying to correct errors in a consumers credit file, even where no pecuniary or out-of-pocket losses); Sheffer v. Experian Information Solutions Inc., 249 F. Supp. 2d 560 (E.D. Pa. 2003)(FCRA provides a private right of action against furnishers of information); Sullivan v. Equifax, Inc. et al., 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 7884 (E.D. Pa. 2002)(reporting a debt to a credit reporting agency is a communication covered by the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act); Wenrich v. Cole, 2000 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 18687 (E.D. Pa.

2000)(FDCPA provides protection for all persons, not just consumers); and Jaramillo v. Experian Information Solutions, Inc., 155 F. Supp. 2d 356 (E.D. Pa. 2001); 2001 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 10221 (E.D. Pa. 2001)(motion for reconsideration granted)(single publication rule does not apply to actions brought for violation of the FCRA and defamation claims not preempted by 1997 FCRA amendments). In 2004, Mr. Francis was voted and named one of Pennsylvanias Top 100 Super Lawyers in a recent study by Law and Politics published by Philadelphia Magazine and Pennsylvania Super Lawyers 2004. Mr. Francis has lectured before judges, lawyers and professional associations on the topics of consumer rights litigation. In June 2002 and May of 2004, he was a speaker at the National Associates of Consumer Advocates Fair Credit Reporting Act Conferences. He has appeared on the NBC Philadelphia affiliate News 10s Consumer Alert and ABC Channel 6s Action News programs to discuss credit reporting issues. Mr. Francis regularly serves as a certified arbitration panelist chair with the Court of Common Pleas of Philadelphia County-Trial Division Program. He is a member of the Pennsylvania Trial Lawyers Association, Philadelphia Trial Lawyers Association, Philadelphia Bar Association and National Association of Consumer Advocates. Chapter 10 is the deposition of a supervising employee in the customer relations division of Trans Union, a credit reporting agency. The deposition describes the procedures for responding to consumer disputes of credit information.

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA - - [CONSUMER], Plaintiff vs. NATIONAL CITY BANK, et al, Defendants - - [CONSUMER], Plaintiff vs. TRANS UNION, LLC, Defendant : : : : : : : : CIVIL ACTION : : : : : : No. 00-CV-5876 : (Consolidated)

- - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania October 9, 2001 - - DEPOSITION OF [EMPLOYEE] - - LYN RUBENSTEIN & ASSOCIATES 1518 Walnut Street, Suite 1010 Philadelphia, PA 19102 (215) 546-0006 FAX (215) 546-9183 1-800-825-DEPS 1-877-WE DO DEPS 2 - - Deposition of [EMPLOYEE], held in the offices of SATZBERG, TRICHON, KOGAN & WERTHEIMER, P.C., 1818 Market Street, 30th Floor, at 11:40 a.m., before Lyn Rubenstein, Registered Professional Reporter and Approved Reporter of the United States District Court. - - -

3 APPEARANCES: THE CONSUMER LAW FIRM OF FRANCIS & MAILMAN, P.C. BY: JAMES A. FRANCIS, ESQ. and MARK D. MAILMAN, ESQ. 1518 Walnut Street, Suite 208 Philadelphia, PA 191 Attorney for Plaintiff SATZBERG, TRICHON, KOGAN & WERTHEIMER, P.C. BY: BRUCE S. LUCKMAN, ESQ. 1818 Market Street, 30th Floor Philadelphia, PA 19103 Attorney for Defendant, Trans Union 4 E X H I B I T S MARKED DESCRIPTION PAGE

[Employee]-1 Cover letter of Oct. 3, 16 2001, enclosing numerous documents [Employee]-2 Two organizational charts 28 [Employee]-3 Springfield Consumer Relations Center Dispute Training Guide - Revised 2/99 95

[Employee]-4 FVAD Standard Operating 95 Procedures [Employee]-5 Trans Union Consumer Relations CDV Training Manual [Employee]-6 Consumer Relations Disclosure Training Manual 95

95

[Employee]-7 Introduction to Trans 95 Union and the Consumer Relations System [Employee]-8 Consumer Report for [Consumer] 5 1 2 (It is agreed by and between counsel that sealing, filing and

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certification are hereby waived and all objections, except as to the form of the question, are reserved until the time of trial). - - [EMPLOYEE], having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: - - MR. FRANCIS: [Employee], my name is Jim Francis. I'm an attorney and I represent [Consumer] who is the plaintiff in this action that he has brought against Trans Union and National City Bank. Today, I'm going to be taking your deposition. That means, I'm going to be asking you a number of questions. I am going to give you a number of instructions first. If you don't understand one 6

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of my questions, I will ask you to ask me to rephrase it. Otherwise, I will assume that you understood my question and you are answering it to the best of your ability. Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: There may be times during the deposition where I am thinking about a question as I am articulating it and you may think my question is over, but I would ask that you wait until I am finished asking my question before you answer and, likewise, I will try to afford you the same courtesy because the court reporter can only take down one of us at a time. Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Ma'am, do you understand that your testimony today is under oath, just as if you would 7

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be in a courtroom in front of a judge and jury; do you understand that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: You are sworn to tell the truth; do you understand

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that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: If at any time during the deposition you conclude that a question that I have asked or an answer that you have given was incomplete or you didn't understand it or you want to change your testimony at any time, please feel free to do so; just let me know and you can put anything you want on the record. The goal today is that by the time we finish today, which hopefully will be sooner than later, everything that you want to say and everything that you believe is responsive to my questions, you have put on the record. 8

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Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I don't foresee this being a problem with you, but it is important that you keep all of your answers verbal because hand gestures and things along those lines cannot be transcribe. Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Would you please state and spell your full name for the record? A. [Redacted.] Q. Where do you reside? MR. LUCKMAN: Do you want her business address? MR. FRANCIS: I want her residential address. MR. LUCKMAN: If she is no longer employed with the company, we will be happy to give you her last known address. 9

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As long as she is employed, you can go through me. Also, before we go any further, I heard from John Semler, counsel for National City Bank, and he is not appearing at the deposition today. That is why we are going

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forward without that party being present. MR. FRANCIS: Are you instructing her not to answer the question about her residential address? MR. LUCKMAN: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. MR. LUCKMAN: She also won't give her Social Security number or any personal identifying information. I'm agreeing on the record that if she is no longer employed by Trans Union, I will give you her last known residence address. MR. FRANCIS: How about her 10

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date of birth; will you let her answer that? MR. LUCKMAN: That is up to the witness. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Ma'am, what is your business address? A. 1510 Chester Pike. Q. Where is that located? A. Crum Lynne, Pennsylvania. Q. Do you know what the ZIP is? A. 19026. Q. What is that address; what is there? A. Trans Union. Q. I know that Trans Union has an operation in Springfield; is that the same thing or is this something different? A. It's the same company. The consumer relations division is in the Crum Lynne office. Q. What was your date of birth? A. REDACTED. Q. What is your current title or the position that you maintain at Trans Union now? A. I'm a group manager. 11

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Q. That is your title, group manager? A. Yes. Q. Do you have a business card? A. I don't know if I have it on me. (At this point, the witness produced a business card). MR. FRANCIS: Great, thanks. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How long have you held the title, group manager, at Trans Union? A. Since '93.

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Q. Okay. Just to abbreviate the process, if you would, just take me up through your educational and work history that brought you to become a group manager at Trans Union. A. Education is a high school graduate. Q. Where did you graduate from? A. West Catholic. Q. When did you graduate? A. '75 and I started with Trans Union in 1976. Q. Were you employed in any other capacity between 1975 and 1976? 12

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A. At different companies. Q. Will you just tell me what they were? A. Wanamaker's, a salesperson, National Publishing Company. Q. Are they both local? A. Wanamaker's is out of business now. Q. Was it the Center City store? A. Yes. Q. Okay? A. And National Publishing, I don't know if they're still in business, but it was like 24th and Locust. Q. Are you married? A. No. Q. Do you have any children? A. One. Q. A boy or girl? A. Boy. Q. How old? A. 22. Q. When you started with Trans Union back in 1976, what was your position? A. I started as a file clerk. Q. Why don't you just take me through your 13

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work history from 1976 up through your position as group manager in 1993? Just tell me the various positions that you occupied and the years you occupied them. A. The years, I'm not sure of, but I was a file clerk, probably, for a year. Then I went into the telephone verifications. I would call and do the telephone verifications. That was probably a year. Q. Okay? A. I was the consumer relations receptionist when consumers walked into the office to get a copy of their report.

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Q. Okay? A. Then I was an investigator, then assistant supervisor, supervisor, manager, and then group manager. Q. So, you have essentially worked your way up? A. Yes, I did. Q. Prior to coming here to testify, did you prepare for this deposition in any way? A. Yes. 14

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Q. Tell me what you did. A. Reviewed our records, the consumer relations records. Q. Can you describe those records in more detail? When you say, "the consumer relations records," is that the Trade Set Detail? A. Exactly; it was those records. MR. FRANCIS: Would those be the records that you turned over in discovery? MR. LUCKMAN: Yes; they are the ACDVs and communications from the consumer and letters from Trans Union to the consumer; it's what has been produced. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; so, do I understand correctly that your testimony is that you reviewed documents from Trans Union which refer to, in this case, the plaintiff, [Consumer]'s history of disputes and correspondence with 15

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Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: As well as his credit file? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I don't need to mark them yet. I'm going to give you a series of documents and ask you if they represent the documents completely that you reviewed prior to today's deposition. MR. LUCKMAN: Completely? MR. FRANCIS: Other than the enclosure letter from Tim, I want to know if she reviewed all of those documents before coming here today or

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if there were any other documents that she reviewed prior to coming here today. MR. LUCKMAN: We can go off the record. (Discussion off the record). MR. FRANCIS: In fact, for 16

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the sake of the record, let's mark this as [Employee]-1. (At this point, the court reporter marked the exhibit as [Employee]-1). MR. LUCKMAN: Jim, I think we gave you an ACDV after the fact. MR. FRANCIS: Right. MR. LUCKMAN: If that is coaching the witness, you can yell at me. MR. FRANCIS: Do you mind if I call you "[Employee]" or do your prefer "[Employee]"? THE WITNESS: No; "[Employee]" is fine. MR. FRANCIS: [Employee], the series of documents that I have handed to you, that have been marked as [Employee]-1, have you had an opportunity to review them? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Other than the enclosure letter, which is addressed 17

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to me from Trans Union's counsel, Tim Creech, are those the documents that you referred to previously that you reviewed prior to coming here today? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Are there any documents that you reviewed prior to coming here today that are not in that stack of documents? THE WITNESS: Only if that ACDV is not in here. MR. FRANCIS: A separate ACDV? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That's the National City ACDV? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Any other documents? THE WITNESS: No.

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MR. FRANCIS: Are there documents in [Employee]-1 that you didn't review prior to today that I happen to have? 18

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THE WITNESS: There was one; I could have reviewed it; I just don't remember seeing it before. It was a letter from -MR. FRANCIS: Are you referring to the letter from [Consumer], maybe? THE WITNESS: No. It was maybe addressed to him. I don't remember this. MR. FRANCIS: You are referring to a document, a page that is entitled, "Credit Criteria/Review Process For The Key Alternative Loan"? THE WITNESS: I mean, I could have seen it. I don't remember it. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; thank you. Other than reviewing these documents, what else did you do to prepare for the deposition? 19

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THE WITNESS: That's all. MR. FRANCIS: That's it? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Did you actually review these documents in hard copy, like they are in [Employee]-1, or did you access a computer file and review the same information? THE WITNESS: The hard copies. MR. FRANCIS: Did you in any way access any computerized files that are maintained by Trans Union, in preparation for today's deposition? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Other than Mr. Luckman or Mr. Creech, did you speak to anybody in preparation for today's deposition? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Did you talk to anybody at Trans Union?

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THE WITNESS: 20

No.

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BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Describe for me the structure of Trans Union and, by that, I mean, the corporate identity. What is it; is it a partnership? What is the structure or the business entity that Trans Union is? A. It's a credit reporting company. Q. It's a company; okay. Is it a corporation? A. It's a privately-owned company. Q. It's a privately-owned company; okay. Do you know if it's incorporated or not? A. I don't know. Q. You don't know; okay. Do you know when it was formed? A. No. Q. What are the various offices that Trans Union maintains? A. They have two consumer relations offices and then they have different marketing offices and sales offices. Q. How many different locations for both 21

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of those? A. It's nationwide. I don't know exactly how many offices; two consumer relations, that's it. Q. Would you say, more than ten? A. Yes. Q. How many employees does the company maintain? A. The company? I have no idea. Q. Not even an estimate? A. No. Q. Who would know that? A. Someone in the corporate office. Q. Can you give me the name of somebody who would know? A. I would go to corporate HR. MR. FRANCIS: The reason I am asking these questions is because you were noticed as a corporate representative of Trans Union. That is why I am asking these questions; so, I am going to go through them. If you don't know, that's 22

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fine. One of the instructions I probably didn't you earlier which applies is, if you don't know the answer to a question which I ask, that's fine; just say, "I don't know." MR. LUCKMAN: No guessing or speculating; not knowing is always okay. MR. FRANCIS: No guessing or speculating. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. So, you don't know how many employees Trans Union has nationwide? A. No. Q. Do you know if Trans Union has offices outside of the United States? A. Yes, they do. Q. Do you know which countries? A. No. Q. Is there a parent corporation? A. As to? Q. Is there a company that owns Trans 23

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Union? A. I don't know if it's a company; it's a family. Q. What is the name of the family? A. The Pritzker family. Q. It is your understanding that the family owns Trans Union? A. Yes. Q. The initials appearing on some of the documents that have been exchanged in this case reference "LLC" after Trans Union, which sometimes indicates, "Limited Liability Corporation." Would that indicate to you that it is a limited liability corporation? A. Yes. Q. Who are the officers; is there a president, a CEO, a COO, et cetera? A. Yes. Q. Tell me who the officers are. A. Harry Gambel is the president; Barry Botruff is a vice-president. Q. He is a vice-president? A. He's in charge of consumer relations. 24

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Q. Is that who you report to? A. Well, I report to Mary Lane who reports

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to Dave Wolff who reports to Barry. Q. What is Harry's official position? A. He's the president. Q. President of Trans Union? A. Yes. Q. How long has he been the president; do you know? A. At least, 15 years. Q. So, you have given me Harry Gambel, Barry Botruff, and he is vice-president in charge of consumer relations. Who else are the officers? A. Dave Wolff. Q. What is Dave Wolff's position? A. He's a vice-president of consumer relations. Q. So, you have two vice-presidents of consumer relations? A. Right. Q. Who else? A. There are other vice-presidents, but they are not within consumer relations and I 25

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don't know all their positions and what they do. Q. Okay. A. Do you want their names? Q. Tell me who you do know? A. Rick Lynch. Q. What is his position? A. He's a vice president. I can't think of anyone else's name now. Q. Separate and apart from Harry Gambel, is there a CEO? A. Barry Botruff is considered CEO, too, as vice-president. Q. Is there a COO? A. Not that I know of. Q. Is there a CFO? A. I have no idea. Q. You said that Trans Union is a credit reporting service or agency? A. Yes. Q. What do you mean when you say that? A. They sell credit reports; they maintain credit reports on individuals. 26

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Q. Do you know if the company engages in any other type of revenue-producing activity? A. Yes, they do. Q. What other types of revenue-producing activities do they regularly conduct?

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A. There is employment screening; they do list business; they do mortgages, mortgage reports. Q. Anything else? A. That's all I can think of. Q. When you say, "list business," what is that? A. They sell lists to different companies. Q. What types of lists? A. Demographic information. Q. You are in the consumer relations department; right? A. Yes. Q. How many different departments are there within Trans Union? A. Within Trans Union? Q. Yes. You are in consumer relations department. 27

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What other departments exist? A. Well, marketing, sales, fraud; I mean, there's accounting, HR. Q. Anything else? A. I mean, in the other industry, I guess, the mortgage reports, they have mortgage reps, those people. Q. Do you know how many other departments there are? Are we talking 15, 20, 100; do you have any idea? A. I have no idea. Q. So, the title of the department that you are in is the consumer relations department? A. Yes. Q. How many employees total are there in the consumer relations department? A. Probably, like 240. Q. Total? A. Yes. Q. What is the function of the consumer relations department in relation to Trans Union; what does it do for Trans Union? A. We assist consumers in obtaining a copy 28

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of their credit report and then if there is a dispute, we process the dispute on the credit report. MR. FRANCIS: Let's mark this as [Employee]-2. (At this point, the court reporter marked the exhibit as [Employee]-2).

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MR. FRANCIS: [Employee], do you see the document that I have placed before you that has been marked as [Employee]-2? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What is it? THE WITNESS: It's an organizational chart. MR. FRANCIS: Both pages? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: This is the organizational chart for Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: For the consumer relations department only; right? 29

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THE WITNESS: Right, as of this date. MR. FRANCIS: July, 2001? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Do you know if this is accurate today? THE WITNESS: Not today, no. MR. FRANCIS: Tell me what is inaccurate about it or what is different from July, 2001 until today. THE WITNESS: Based on managers leaving, it has just been redone within the last two weeks. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: Lisa Dickens, she was a manager for the verbal and written. MR. FRANCIS: Lisa Dickens? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: She left Trans Union? THE WITNESS: She was promoted to a group manager position 30

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in the Springfield office. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; how about other than Lisa? THE WITNESS: Denise Briddell, she will be leaving October 20th. MR. LUCKMAN: I can't find her. MR. FRANCIS: She is right under [Employee]'s name. Okay; any other changes?

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THE WITNESS: Bill Munger, a team leader, has been called to active duty; so, he's gone. All of the responsibilities and that have changed for all the team leaders and managers. MR. FRANCIS: How is that, because of his departure? THE WITNESS: Well, because I lost two managers, and rather than replace them, I split the department to make it more of a contact center. MR. FRANCIS: Any other 31

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changes, other than what you have already testified to? THE WITNESS: Well, their direct reports could be reporting to someone completely different now. MR. FRANCIS: Let's just focus on employees who have left or who are leaving, not who have changed within the department, itself. You told me Denise is leaving and Lisa was promoted. Are there any other departures anticipated or will there be any additions to the group? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: There are two separate pages, right, of [Employee]-2? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Explain to me the relationship between the two pages. I see on one page, there is you at the top with a bunch of people underneath you and the second page, 32

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Mary Lane is at the top with a bunch of people underneath her. What is the relationship between these two; are these two separate divisions within the department? THE WITNESS: These are the areas that report directly to Mary Lane. MR. FRANCIS: Is Mary Lane your supervisor? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What is her position?

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THE WITNESS: She's the consumer relations director. MR. FRANCIS: It says, "Consumer Relations-East." What does that mean? THE WITNESS: We have an office in the west. MR. FRANCIS: Where is that office located? THE WITNESS: Fullerton, 33

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California. MR. FRANCIS: What is there; is there something similar to this for Fullerton? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: However, they are still part of the consumer relations department; right? THE WITNESS: Yes, but they would have nothing to do with this. MR. FRANCIS: What I'm asking is, the organizational chart that we have, that has been marked as [Employee]-2, only represents the eastern division of the entire consumer relations department of Trans Union; is that correct? THE WITNESS: Correct. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Of the entire 240 employees that you mentioned before, is that 240 for the entire Trans Union or 240 just for the east? A. Just for the east. Q. Is there any difference between the 34

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function that the consumer relations east office engages in versus the west office, the Fullerton, California office? A. The east is the national disclosure center. All the disclosures come through the east. Q. So, the Fullerton office doesn't do consumer disclosures? A. They might process them. Just because they receive it, rather than out-sort it and forward it back to us, they would just process it, but we're the national disclosure center. Q. Any other differences? A. We also have the verifications, CDV department, in the east and that's the -- we process the consumer dispute verification

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responses. Q. What about the dispute department; is that in the east, as well? A. We have one in the east, yes. Q. Is there one in the west? A. Yes. Q. We will get to this in a little bit, 35

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but if somebody disputes something on their credit report with the Fullerton, California office, do I understand from what you said about the CDV department, the east office would process the response from the furnisher? A. Yes. Q. If the west office processes a dispute, how does the CDV end up at the east office? A. Because the CDV is sent to the creditor and the creditor mails it back to our office. Q. I've got you. So, your office processes CDVs for both disputes that are on the west coast as well as on the east coast? A. Yes. Q. I've got you. Now, are there different departments or divisions that make up the consumer relations department of Trans Union? A. Yes. Q. Would you tell me what they are? A. It would be the disclosure department, the CDV department, disputes, telephones -Q. It's called "telephones"? 36

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A. Well, it's verbal. Q. Telephone/verbal disputes? A. Yes. Q. That's four? A. -- the priority processing department. Q. What else? A. There's a mail department. Q. That's six? A. Yes. Q. Are there six departments? A. Yes. Q. Are they called departments or divisions? A. They were departments or they were departments. Right now, we're trying to call it a contact center. Q. However, the consumer relations department is also a department. These are departments within a

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department; right? A. Well, consumer relations is a department of the company. These are departments within 37

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consumer relations. Q. I understand. Now, the disclosure department, I believe you testified before, that is exclusively done from the Crum Lynne office? A. Yes. Q. And the CDVs are exclusively done in Crum Lynne; correct? A. Yes. Q. How about disputes? A. Disputes? You can do them at either center. Q. How about telephone/verbal disputes? A. They have that department, as well. Q. The priority processing department? A. Yes. Q. Both east and west coast? A. Yes. Q. And the mail department? A. Right. Q. You mentioned 240 employees here on the east coast. How about on the west coast in 38

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Fullerton? A. I don't have their numbers. Q. Do you know who would know that? A. Diane Terry. Q. Who is that? A. She's the director of the California office. MR. FRANCIS: Bruce, if I made a written request for that, could you supply me with that? MR. LUCKMAN: The number of employees? MR. FRANCIS: Yes. I don't want to depose her. I want to know exactly how many employees are on the east coast and how many are on the west coast. MR. LUCKMAN: Sure. MR. MAILMAN: She might have an idea. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Do you have any idea how many employees there are?

24

A. I would be making a guess, estimating. 39

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I'll say 150. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. I would think it would be smaller because there are two exclusive departments here that aren't there. THE WITNESS: They have the consumer relations division, as well as the fraud center there that reports under Diane; so, if you added the fraud associates in there, it would probably be 200. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. So, separate and apart from the six departments you mentioned, there is a fraud department? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That's exclusively on the west coast? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That is under Diane's management? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Under you, are 40

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there managers for each of those departments? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Who is the manager for the dispute department in Crum Lynne? THE WITNESS: Sue Marzulli. MR. FRANCIS: Do you know how long she has been with the company? THE WITNESS: Eight to ten years. MR. FRANCIS: How about the CDV department? THE WITNESS: The manager of the CDV department and the disclosure department is Michael Livingston. MR. FRANCIS: Do you know how long he has been with Trans Union? THE WITNESS: I'm going to say, almost ten years, if not over ten years. He came from another location. MR. FRANCIS: He is in charge 41

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

of disputes and disclosures? THE WITNESS: Not disputes; he's in charge of CDVs and disclosures. MR. FRANCIS: If you look at Sue Marzulli's position, underneath her name it says, "Manager CCD"? THE WITNESS: "CCD Written," consumer contact department-written; that's disputes. MR. FRANCIS: So, "CCD" also refers to the disputes department? THE WITNESS: Well, hopefully, it's going to refer to the whole center. MR. FRANCIS: Jean Sorenson? THE WITNESS: She's the manager of priority processing, QA and training. MR. FRANCIS: Lisa Dickens? THE WITNESS: She was the manager of verbal and written. MR. FRANCIS: What does that mean, manager of verbal and written? 42

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THE WITNESS: She would handle some paper disputes, as well as our telephone contacts. MR. FRANCIS: What do you mean by "telephone contacts"? THE WITNESS: Consumers calling in, giving disputes over the phone, general information. MR. FRANCIS: So, that is also a form of a dispute department? THE WITNESS: Well, it would be the contact department and they have a half-a-day on the phone and a half-a-day doing written. MR. FRANCIS: Steve Durant; how about him? THE WITNESS: He's the consumer relations manager for the verbal side. They would only handle consumer calls. MR. FRANCIS: Would that be consumer calls from the east coast or both coasts? 43

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THE WITNESS: Well, you would get calls from wherever the consumer

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

was calling from; the next operator gets the call. MR. FRANCIS: In this chart, [Employee]-2, there are names that are underneath some of these team leaders. Does this indicate all the employees within the east coast consumer relations Crum Lynne division? THE WITNESS: I would think so, yes. There could be training associates that are not on here. As I said, we would have to get you a new one because this is not right. MR. FRANCIS: I would ask, for the record, that I get an updated organizational chart. Do you have any objection? MR. LUCKMAN: I don't think 44

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there is one. THE WITNESS: It's not done yet. The associates don't know yet who they're going to report to. MR. FRANCIS: When it is finished, would you turn it over to Bruce Luckman, please? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Thank you. MR. MAILMAN: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How many employees are assigned in any way the task of processing consumer disputes? A. How many -MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think how many are contact associates. All the associates, once they become a dispute investigator, can process disputes. 45

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Do they do it on a regular basis? Some days, they will; other days, we will have them do something else.

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MR. FRANCIS: Okay; let me ask you a more precise question. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How many employees are assigned specifically to the dispute department? A. Probably, 90. Q. Of all of the disputes that consumers make with Trans Union, what percentage of those disputes would you say are handled by those 90 employees? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: Probably, 80 percent of our volume. MR. FRANCIS: When you say, "volume," you mean 80 percent of the dispute volume? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Both oral and 46

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written? THE WITNESS: No, just written. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How many employees are assigned to verbal or telephone disputes? A. There's probably 95 associates in the telephone group. Now, some of them could be considered contact associates and they'll spend half-a-day on the phone and half-a-day doing paper. Q. When you say, "doing paper," what does that mean? A. Disputes. Q. Those 95 people would make up, what you called before, the telephone/verbal disputes? A. Yes. Q. That department? A. Yes. Q. On the chart, which department is that? A. Steve Durant, Liza Dickens, Denise Bridell. Q. Okay. 47

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Why is it that they do about half-and-half, as opposed to the other employees who just do exclusively written disputes? A. Because we had associates that wanted to learn the phones, but they didn't want to be on there all day; so, it gave them diversity in their jobs; so, we created a new

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

position. Q. What is that position called? A. A contact position. Q. You gave me about 90 employees in the dispute department and approximately 95 associates in the telephone/verbal department; that's about 185. Of the remaining, approximately, 60, where are they assigned, those employees? A. You will have QA training and priority processing and there's probably 30 in that group, 30 to 35; then the CDV department would have anywhere -- maybe, 20. Q. 20 employees? A. Yes, and then the others are 48

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administrative or mail room. Q. How many would you approximate are there? A. Well, administrative, probably, six. Q. What does "administrative" mean? A. They do financials, time sheets. Mary's secretary is in there. Q. When you say, "financials, time sheets," what do you mean by that? A. Well, the associates' time sheets, pay records. Q. In other words, their hours and how much they work in a given week? A. Yes. MR. LUCKMAN: Don't use the words "time sheets" with lawyers; it get them nervous. MR. FRANCIS: Yes; it gets them nervous. MR. LUCKMAN: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How many mail room people would you say there are? 49

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A. Probably, 20. Q. Their sole job is to open the mail and sort it out? A. Yes, and they're responsible also for filing the completed work. Q. How many members are in the disclosure department? A. I combined that with the verification, CDVs; it's about 20. Q. How many written disputes does Trans Union receive on a weekly basis?

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

A. We average like 4,000 a day; so, 20,000. Q. Is that just for the east coast or is that the total company? A. That's the east coast. Q. How about telephone/verbal disputes? A. I can give you the call volume. I don't know how many of them result in disputes. Q. Okay. A. It's about 24,000 phone calls a week, but they could be just general information or disclosure requests. 50

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MR. MAILMAN: Is that the east coast? MR. FRANCIS: That's obviously the east coast; correct? THE WITNESS: Right. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Does Trans Union maintain any records or written data that would document what you just said in terms of the number of calls and the number of letters that Trans Union gets on a regular basis? A. Year-to-date volume reports, yes. Q. Who issues those? A. Well, the managers create them and then I maintain them. Q. Do you have any idea what the west coast's volume is? A. It's very similar. Their dispute volume is much lower than ours, but the calls -- I mean, we're on load-bound; so, the calls are very even. Q. What does that mean, "load-bound"; they just get distributed? 51

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A. Yes, between the two centers. Q. When you say the dispute volume is lower, the 4,000 a day, 20,000 a week, that would be written disputes; right? A. Yes. Q. What you couldn't break down would be the calls, the 24,000 phone calls? A. Right. Q. Do you have any estimate as to how many of those phone calls are consumer disputes? A. I could get that. I don't know that right now, no. Q. What would indicate that to you?

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

I don't want you to guess. I want to know if there is something that would indicate that to you. A. I would have to go back and look in the system and get that information. MR. FRANCIS: I would like you to do that and turn that over to Bruce. MR. LUCKMAN: You will make a request for this stuff? 52

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MR. FRANCIS: Yes, absolutely. MR. LUCKMAN: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How is it that a dispute gets made by telephone? In other words, what would cause a consumer to make a dispute by telephone versus sending in a letter or an Investigation Request Form? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: It depends on the consumer, what media they chose to work with. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. If a consumer requests a copy of their credit report and Trans Union sends their disclosure, on that disclosure or any of the accompanying forms to that disclosure, is there a number that consumers can call to make verbal telephone disputes to their credit report information? 53

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A. There's a telephone number on the credit report. They are also sent a dispute form if they would choose to mail that back in. Q. Do you know what percentage of consumers elect to send in written disputes versus calling? A. The majority of them are through the mail. Q. When you say, "the majority," is that 80 percent, 70 or 90? A. I would say, 80 percent. Q. The number you referenced on the consumer disclosure, is that a 1-800 number? A. Yes. Q. If I were to request today from Trans

18 19 20 21 22 23 24

Union my credit report and Trans Union were to send me a disclosure, because I know that's the term, it's not a credit report, if I called this number, if I were to dial this number today, would a live person answer the phone? A. Yes. 54

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Q. Would that person be able to process a dispute of my credit information? A. Yes. Q. Is there a script or written checklist of pieces of information that the Trans Union telephone dispute operators are given to assist them in processing a dispute from a consumer? A. I'm not sure I understand your question. Q. It was convoluted. The people who would take my call today, if I were to call that number, the 1-800 number, on my disclosure, do they have anything in writing, such as a checklist or a series of questions, that they are to ask in order to obtain information from me to process the dispute or is up to me to give my spiel about the problem? A. You would have to identify what you are disputing on the credit report. Q. What do they do right then while they are on the phone with the consumer? Do they access the consumer's file while the consumer 55

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is on the phone? A. Yes. Q. Can they order an ACDV or issue a CDV Form while the consumer is on the phone? A. Yes. Q. Is that the usual course of practice? A. Yes. Q. Have consumers always been able to dispute their consumer report information by telephone? A. No. Q. When did that start? A. Several years ago. Q. Was that in any way prompted by anything that the FTC did regarding Trans Union, by way of an FTC Consent Order or anything along those lines; do you know? A. I don't believe so, no. Q. Prior to that change, do I understand correctly that the only way that consumers

21 22 23 24

could dispute it would be by writing? A. Correct. Q. Would it be fair to characterize your position within the consumer relations 56

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department as basically second in command to Mary Lane? I mean, is that a fair understanding? A. I mean, it might show that on the organization chart, but I would say, "No." I'm a group manager that the department managers are reporting to. She has far more responsibility than I do. Q. What is Crum Lynne's budget for the consumer relations department? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the question; I object to the form and I object generally to the question. Go ahead; do whatever you want to do. I don't want you to guess or surmise. You can answer only what you know. I will see where he goes before I instruct you. THE WITNESS: Our planned budget for last year was over 57

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$30,000,000.00. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Did you meet that plan? A. Yes; so far, we have. We will see in December. Q. Are there any documents that would reference the budgets for the last three or four years for your department? A. We'd have to check with the accounting department. I mean, I don't maintain those records. Q. As part of your responsibilities as group manager, would you report any type of budgetary or expense information to Mary Lane or anybody in the company? A. Every month, there's reports run on each of the departments, as to where they fall into the plan, but I don't have any -- I mean, that's done by Paul Deal in our corporate office. Q. Who is Paul Deal?

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A. He's the financial -- I don't even know 58

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what they call him. Q. I'm not going to hold you to the number exactly; I know you said the projected budget for last year was $30,000,000.00; is that right? A. Yes. Q. Just so that it's clear, that is the budget for the entire consumer relations department for the east coast? A. For the east and the west coast, I believe that was. Q. Oh, for both? A. Yes. Q. I assume that budget is made up of, among other things, salaries of employees, equipment and other things? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever testified for Trans Union before? A. Yes. Q. Let's break it down. Have you ever testified in a deposition prior to today? A. Yes. 59

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Q. Have you ever testified in either an arbitration or a trial? A. Arbitration, yes; trial, yes. Q. How many times would you say you have given depositions on behalf of Trans Union? A. Probably, two to three a year. Q. How many times have you testified in connection with a trial or an arbitration? A. An arbitration, probably, five times and a trial, twice. Q. When was the most recent time that you testified at a trial? A. It was years ago, nothing recently. Q. Do you know if you testified in the Cousins case? A. I believe I did a deposition. Q. How long ago was the last trial testimony you gave? A. Two years ago, three years ago. Q. Do you remember the name of the case? MR. LUCKMAN: I can't help you. THE WITNESS: I know. I'm going to say Cushman, but I don't know if that's right. 60

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MR. FRANCIS: Okay. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Do you remember the lawyers, other than Bruce? A. No. Q. How about a deposition; when was the last time you gave a deposition prior to today? A. A few months ago, but we weren't even a party in that case. We were just going over the records. MR. LUCKMAN: We were subpoenaed as a witness in a case, but I didn't even remember that; you're right. THE WITNESS: I think that was the only one this year, other than this one. MR. FRANCIS: All right. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Are there any records that you could consult that would indicate which trials and depositions you have testified in, say, in the 61

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last five years? A. No records that I would have, no. MR. FRANCIS: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. [Employee], when you mentioned that you testified in approximately five arbitrations, you were referring to the total number of arbitrations, not just arbitrations per year; right? A. Correct. Q. The two to three depositions, obviously, that wasn't the total; that was two to three depositions per year? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall the last time you gave a deposition? MR. LUCKMAN: You mean the last time that Trans Union was a party? MR. FRANCIS: I mean when you testified on behalf of Trans Union as a defendant. THE WITNESS: I don't. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. 62

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BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Have you ever acted in any way as an

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

expert witness on behalf of Trans Union? A. No. Q. Are you aware of anybody else within Trans Union or within your department who has been called upon to testify in connection with a deposition, trial or arbitration? A. We had one associate this year that gave a deposition. Q. Who was that associate? A. Lorraine Street. MR. LUCKMAN: You weren't deposed in that case? THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Where was that deposition; was that here in Philadelphia? A. It was in the Crum Lynne office. It was a telephone deposition. Q. Was that in connection with a case where Trans Union was a defendant? A. Yes. Q. Do you know who the lawyer was? 63

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A. No. Q. Do you know the name of the case? A. No. Q. Anybody else, other than Lorraine Street? A. No. Q. Were you present during the deposition? A. Yes. Q. What was the substance of the deposition? A. She was the telephone investigator or operator that the consumer spoke with. Q. Okay. I want to focus in a little bit more on the dispute department, okay, and then after that, on the CDV department. We talked a little bit before and you gave us some information about the number of disputes, written and verbal. Do you remember those discussions? A. Right. Q. Is there a way by which the consumer relations department, either you or another 64

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group manager, monitors the job performance of the dispute investigators? A. Their work is quality controlled, yes. Q. Who performs the quality control? A. The QA department.

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Q. Who would be the person who would be in charge of that department? A. Jean Sorenson. Q. What are the criteria for the job performance of dispute investigators; how are they evaluated? A. That they maintain the quality standards, as well as -- their production is monitored, that they meet the department standards. Q. What are these standards? These standards, are these written standards? A. What do you mean by "written"? Q. You said that they monitor the department's standards. These standards that you referred to, are they in writing somewhere? A. The associate signs off on that when they're being hired, what the standards are, 65

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yes. Q. What is that document called; is that an employment contract? A. No; it's not a contract; it's just part of their orientation. I don't know if the form is called anything. Q. That sets forth Trans Union's standards for their job, for their job performance? A. Yes. Q. What are they evaluated by; how do you evaluate whether a dispute investigator is doing a good job or not? A. Did they process the consumer's dispute correctly; did they respond to all of his questions/concerns; was it processed within the Fair Credit Reporting Act guidelines, TU guidelines. Q. Other than the document that you mentioned, are there any other written documents or policies which indicate to you what the guidelines are? A. No. Q. The dispute investigators, are they 66

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required to maintain any quota for the number of disputes that they process? A. They have standards that they have to meet and based on our measuring that, we determine whether or not we have to go back and adjust our training or even change their jobs. Q. What are the standards regarding the

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number of disputes that they are supposed to process in a given time-frame? A. Ten disputes an hour. Q. They are supposed to complete ten written disputes in an hour? A. Yes. Q. Are there any other guidelines or requirements concerning how many disputes they process, other than that ten-dispute-per-hour criteria? A. No, and, like, there's different disputes. If it's a mixed dispute, it's lower than ten an hour. It's based on the different steps you have to take. 67

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Other than that, no. Q. When you say, "a mixed dispute," what do you mean? A. It's when it's mixed with father and son, that type of thing. Q. Is there a standard for how long those are supposed to take? A. They are measured at eight an hour. Q. The mixed disputes would constitute, you said, information being reported about a son on a father's credit or vice versa? A. Right. Q. What other examples would exist for mixed files? A. Well, if they're mixed with -- their file has to be mixed with someone else's. Q. How do you determine whether or not a file is mixed with somebody else's? A. Well, you're dealing with the consumer; the consumer is telling you, "This is not my account; this is not my address," those types of things. Q. How do you determine or evaluate whether or not the dispute investigators are 68

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performing their jobs in accordance with the FCRA? A. Through the QA and they're also certified in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. They do a certification exam. Q. When you say, "through the QA," what do you mean by that. A. QA monitors their work. Q. I know you are saying they are certified in some way, but on a daily basis, other than being certified, how do you

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evaluate whether they are performing their jobs within the guidelines of the FCRA? A. Because their work is monitored; a percentage of their work is monitored. Q. How is it monitored? That's what I'm trying to find out. A. Oh, I'm sorry. They have QA associates that would actually get that dispute going through the system to make sure everything was done. Q. So, basically, there is somebody behind them who goes in and evaluates what they are 69

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doing? A. Yes. Q. How many QA employees are there? A. 15. Q. When they go into the system to monitor the work of the dispute investigators, what are they looking for to determine if they are doing their jobs right? A. Did they follow the procedures; did they answer the consumer's dispute; did they answer everything the consumer was disputing? Q. Would it be fair to say that what they do is, they look at, in the case of a written dispute, did they look at what the consumer wrote and look at what the dispute investigator did? A. Yes. Q. How would they gauge that, based upon what is in the computer? A. Yes. Q. Trans Union maintains something called the CRONUS System; correct? A. Yes. Q. What is CRONUS? 70

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A. CRONUS is the database in which the credit reports are maintained. Q. Is that the database that dispute investigators would access when processing a dispute? A. They would go into the consumer relations system and pull the file back from CRONUS into the consumer relations system. Q. Would you just describe for me the difference in consumer relations between the CRS and CRONUS? I'm not sure I understand the relationship. A. Okay; CRONUS is the actual credit

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

reports; it's the whole database for Trans Union; it's all the credit reports maintained. In the consumer relations system, the only thing that is maintained in that system would be the files that we receive disputes or phone calls on, disclosure requests. So, we go in, enter that information into the consumer relations system, then send that information to CRONUS, 71

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and pull back a credit report. Q. Okay. Once someone disputes their credit report once, do I understand that there is a CRS file? A. Yes. Q. Would there be a CRS file made if someone just requests a copy of their credit report? A. Yes. Q. As also a dispute? A. Yes. Q. So, the only people who would not be in the CRS system would be people who never requested a copy of their disclosure or didn't dispute their information; is that correct? A. Right; we would have had no activity for them. MR. LUCKMAN: Do you think you can find a place to break at 1:00; that's eight minutes? MR. FRANCIS: I am closing in on a train of thought; so, when I finish with that, we can stop. 72

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MR. LUCKMAN: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. You mentioned earlier there is a separate department for fraud disputes; is that right? A. Yes. Q. That is in the Fullerton office? A. Yes. Q. Do I understand correctly that there is a series of employees or a group of employees who just process disputes that are claimed to be fraud-related? A. Yes. Q. How many employees make up the fraud division? A. I would estimate, and again, I'm

18 19 20 21 22 23 24

guessing, you would have to contact Diane Terry, I would say, at least, 50. Q. How does it get determined whether a consumer's dispute gets processed through the dispute investigations department versus the fraud department? A. Well, it's based on the consumer's 73

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letter. The consumers usually will tell you that they feel they're a victim of fraud; "This account is not mine; it was fraudulently opened." Q. So, it is based upon the consumer's claim? A. Right. Q. Who is the person in charge of the fraud department? A. Diane Terry is the director. The manager is Steve Reger. Q. Are there written policies by which dispute investigators are instructed to conduct their job; in other words, does Trans Union maintain written policies for how dispute department employees should do their job? A. Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What I want to do is, I want to have you look at several documents that have been produced and I just want you to tell me if you recognize what they are. 74

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MR. LUCKMAN: You are not going to go into asking her about them before we break; are you? MR. FRANCIS: No. MR. LUCKMAN: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). MR. FRANCIS: At this point, counsel have agreed to break for lunch. (At this point, a luncheon recess was taken, at the conclusion of which, the deposition continued as follows): MR. FRANCIS: Before I move into another topic, I want to ask you some follow-up questions about some of the testimony that you gave before. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. FRANCIS: I notice on

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your card, it appears to say that Trans Union is a member of the Marmon Group of companies? THE WITNESS: Yes. 75

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MR. FRANCIS: Do you recognize the name, "Marmon"? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What is that? THE WITNESS: It's a division of the Pritzker Family of companies. MR. FRANCIS: So, there's Pritzker on top and Marmon somewhere in the middle and then Trans Union falls under that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: You mentioned, "a division." Do you know that or are you just using that term? THE WITNESS: I'm just using that term. MR. FRANCIS: I asked you a bunch of questions before about the number of written disputes Trans Union receives in a week and the number of phone calls. Do you recall those questions? 76

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THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. One of the questions that I didn't ask was, what is the number of disclosures that Trans Union sends out on a weekly or daily basis? A. I can give you the year-to-date number only because I just remember seeing that. It's almost 5,000,000 from January through now. Q. Has this year been pretty consistent with last year and the previous year or is it higher? A. The volume is higher. Q. Just so that it is clear, that is what Trans Union has sent out until October, 2001, about 5,000,000 consumer disclosures? A. Yes. Q. That means, if I were to call up and request a copy of my report from Trans Union, that is what you are referring to; that's what would be sent to me? A. Yes.

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Q. That's 5,000,000 to date? 77

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A. Yes. Q. That's from January, 2001 to date? A. Yes. Q. Is that total Trans Union or just the east coast? A. Well, the east coast is the only one who does it. We're the national disclosure center. Q. I asked you some questions earlier about quality control and how dispute investigators are regulated. Do you remember those questions? A. Yes. Q. Are there records that quality control maintains concerning FCRA compliance? A. I'm not sure what you mean by "records." Q. There is obviously a quality control department; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. You answered some questions about that earlier. 78

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One of the things you said that the quality control people evaluate, among other things, is how the dispute investigators do their job; right? A. Yes. Q. Obviously, I assume, they are evaluating other things, other than dispute investigators; right? A. Yes. Q. Let's just focus on dispute investigators. Does the quality control department or does anyone within Trans Union make any records concerning the review and evaluation of dispute investigators? A. Yes. Q. What are those records; what are they called? A. The numbers reviewed, the accuracy of the operator, the type of errors. Q. What is the document called? A. Just your quality control stats. Q. How often are those generated? A. Monthly. 79

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Q. Who prepares them and who reviews them? A. The team leader in the control quality department and they are distributed to the manager of whatever area they are doing the quality control on. Q. Do you see them? A. There are some that I see. I can't say that I see them every month. Q. How does it get determined when you should see them versus when somebody else should see them? A. (No response). Q. Why would they be shown to you sometimes, but not other times? A. I would just ask if I wanted to see where the departments were at. Q. Okay. Those quality control stats, are they generated for each of the departments within consumer relations? A. Yes. Q. You mentioned it a little bit briefly before. 80

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As far as the dispute investigations department, what do those statistics evaluate; what are they looking at? A. The accuracy of the operator and the and then there's an overall accuracy of the group. Q. How is the accuracy measured, percentage-wise? A. Yes. Q. When you say, "accuracy of the group," you mean that the dispute investigations group, as a whole, gets evaluated as well as the individual investigator? A. Well, the individual operator and then the operator is assigned to a team leader and then it would be broken down by team leader group. Q. What is your understanding of the error rate of consumer disclosures? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: They are probably 99 percent accurate on the disclosure piece. 81

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MR. FRANCIS: When you say, "the disclosure piece," you mean the

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

thing that the consumer gets? THE WITNESS: Right, when they request the copy of their report. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. How about credit reports that are accessed by subscribers; what is your understanding of the accuracy rate for those reports? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: That's not handled by consumer relations. MR. FRANCIS: Do you know what the rate is? THE WITNESS: I wouldn't have any of those numbers, no. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Who would know that? A. I guess someone at the corporate office, if it's even maintained. I don't know if they keep those 82

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records. Q. So, you are not sure if there is anybody who keeps any records concerning the accuracy rate or, conversely, the error rate of consumer reports which are accessed by subscribers, subscriber versions? A. The access is done by the subscriber; so, it's based on their input. If there's an error in their input, then the error is on the subscriber, not on Trans Union. Q. I understand that. You said that there are records and there is an evaluation of the accuracy of the dispute investigators. Is just wondering, is there a comparable statistic or are there records for the accuracy rate of consumer reports that are generated to subscribers? A. I wouldn't have any of that information. Q. Do you know anything about it, one way or the other? A. No. 83

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Q. You said that you think the corporate department would know? A. If anyone would know, you would have to go through the corporate department. Q. You said before that 99 percent, and

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correct me if I'm wrong, of the consumer disclosures are accurate? A. From our data entry to sending the consumer the report, yes. Q. When you say, "from our data entry," I don't understand that. A. From the operator inputting the information and sending the file to the consumer, that department's accuracy rate is at 99 percent. Q. Is that contained in the records somewhere, that accuracy rate? A. In the quality control records, yes. Q. Of the disclosure department? A. Yes. Q. How do you determine that number, 99 percent; what is that based on; how do you evaluate it? A. It's based on the number of files 84

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reviewed and they're looking for things like, did they input all of the consumer's information, was the right file selected. Q. With regard to the written disputes, and I know you testified before as to the number that Trans Union receives on a weekly basis, of the written disputes that Trans Union receives, how many different trade lines or items of information, on average, do those consumers dispute? MR. LUCKMAN: I'm going to object to the form. THE WITNESS: The average dispute would have three. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Three trade lines or three pieces of information? A. Three trade lines. Q. Of the written disputes that Trans Union receives, what percentage of those disputes are deemed to be accurate? MR. LUCKMAN: I'm going to object to the form. THE WITNESS: That 85

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information is not measured. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Just so it is clear, when you say, "that information," what are you referring to? A. The verification that went out and the response; you know, if the consumer is disputing, is it paid, and it comes back as

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paid, I mean, that's not measured; they just go in and make the change. Q. Let me make sure I understand your testimony. I think what you are saying is that of the approximate 4,000 written disputes a day that come into Trans Union, Trans Union doesn't have any records which indicate the percentage of those disputes which are accurate disputes? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: Right; they're not measuring the response rate with the dispute. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. 86

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So, picking a day in 2001, of 4,000 written disputes, Trans Union doesn't maintain any records which would indicate of those 4,000 disputes which ones were correct disputes and which ones were not correct? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: (No response). MR. FRANCIS: Let me just tell you that I'm not trying to trick you. I would imagine that there are times when people dispute their credit reports or their consumer disclosures and they're wrong; the information is accurate? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Then I am sure that there are times when they are right; there is a dispute and they are correct? THE WITNESS: Right. 87

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MR. FRANCIS: I'm wondering if Trans Union knows what percentage of those written disputes are accurate disputes versus inaccurate disputes. THE WITNESS: They don't measure that. Every dispute you get has to be processed the same way; it doesn't matter. MR. FRANCIS: I'm still a

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little bit in the dark. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. If they don't measure that, how do they know that 99 percent of the disclosures are accurate? A. That's the operators' statistics on what we're generating; we're measuring that. Q. So, you're comparing what is generated to what is in Trans Union's files? A. No, based on the number of requests that were reviewed, how many of them were processed accurately. Q. Are these initial disclosures? 88

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A. Yes. Q. How would an initial disclosure be produced inaccurately? I'm not sure I understand that. A. If the person obtained the information and did not put all the information in; let's say that they just typed the name and address and the consumer provided the name, address and Social; if the don't put the Social in, that's a mistake. Q. So, what you're looking at is the accuracy rate between the information the consumer requests and what the consumer receives? A. Yes. Q. So, 99 percent of the time, the consumer disclosure that is sent to the consumer is for that consumer; it's accurate to that consumer? A. Yes, and the other percent could be an error made by the operator; they didn't input all the information; they sent the wrong letter; you know, they should have sent the file, but instead, they sent a letter. 89

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Q. That's what I'm trying to figure out. The 99 percent figure that you referenced, that doesn't evaluate the accuracy of the information contained within those trade lines; does it? A. Not at all, no. Q. You're not saying that the 99 percent figure would say that of the trade lines that appear on the credit report, they're 99 percent accurate? A. Not at all, no. Q. Okay. What I am trying to figure out is, are there any records which Trans Union

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

has which would indicate the accuracy of the information that it reports about a consumer? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: I don't have that information. I don't know that they measure any of that. MR. FRANCIS: Who would? THE WITNESS: You would have 90

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to go through the corporate office. MR. LUCKMAN: When she says, "the corporate office," she means Chicago, where the database resides. THE WITNESS: Right. MR. LUCKMAN: I suspect that's what you mean? THE WITNESS: That's right. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. We have already referenced the number of disputes, written disputes, that Trans Union receives per day and the total number of calls that you get. What is the most common form of dispute? In other words, as a result of either the quality control or any other evaluation, does Trans Union know, one way or the other, what are the most common disputes that consumers make? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. FRANCIS: 91

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Q. If you could list them in order, to the best of your ability, what are the most common reported errors that consumers claim? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: "Never Been Delinquent"; "Paid"; "Not Mine." MR. FRANCIS: In that order, those three? THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Can you break that down on some kind of a percentage basis? A. All I know is, they're the top three. Q. Just so that my question is clear, is it your testimony that Trans Union doesn't know, one way or the other, when a consumer

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claims that they've never been delinquent, how often that dispute is accurate? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: That's correct. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. So, Trans Union has no information, one 92

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way or the other, whether 50 percent of the people who claim that they've never been delinquent, whether they're accurate about that or they're not accurate? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: It's not measured. I mean, it doesn't make a difference. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. When you say that it doesn't make a difference, what do you mean? A. Because they have the right to dispute anything on the report, however they want to dispute it, and we have an obligation to investigate it. Whether it's accurate or not accurate, we still have the same obligation. Q. I understand. Of the written disputes that you receive, that Trans Union receives, what is the percentage of them that are in response to a consumer disclosure? 93

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MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: I would say, at least, 80 percent. MR. FRANCIS: Just so my question is clear, what I mean is, I would imagine that there are times when a consumer orders their report from Trans Union, they receive the consumer discloser and then they dispute that with Trans Union; then there are also times where a consumer believes that Trans Union is reporting something inaccurate about her and she, without getting into the consumer disclosure, sends a dispute; is that pretty accurate? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Those are the two main scenarios in which a

21 22 23 24

consumer disputes their consumer reports? THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, there are other 94

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scenarios; the creditor could give them information; they could be notified by a creditor that someone attempted to do something on their credit card, whatever, and that would prompt them to send a dispute in. MR. FRANCIS: Okay, but you're saying, and I'm not going to hold you to it exactly, that approximately 80 percent of the time, the disputes are in response to consumer disclosures? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I want to show you a series of manuals that have been produced and I want to just ask you some basic questions about them. I'm not going to go through them page-by-page; so, don't crawl under the table. I'm just going to ask some basic concepts about them. Let's mark this as [Employee]-3, this as [Employee]-4, this as [Employee]-5, 95

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this as [Employee]-6 and this as [Employee]-7. (At this point, the court reporter marked the exhibits as [Employee]-3, [Employee]-4, [Employee]-5, [Employee]-6 and [Employee]-7). MR. FRANCIS: Let me correct some of my earlier statements. Four of the manuals have been previously produced in the Johnson case. The other manual, which is represented as [Employee]-4, was not, just so that is clear. I'm not trying to mislead anybody. MR. LUCKMAN: It says, "Defendant's Exhibit 26" on it? MR. FRANCIS: Yes. MR. LUCKMAN: That was given to you by counsel from another case? MR. FRANCIS: Correct. MR. LUCKMAN: Is that from Coleman?

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MR. FRANCIS: 96

Do you think

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I'm going to tell you? MR. LUCKMAN: It just means that I have to go look at my exhibit list from the case; you don't have to tell me. MR. FRANCIS: Ma'am, do you see the documents that have been placed before you that have been marked as Exhibits [Employee]-3 through [Employee]-7? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Can you just give me a summary of what they are? First of all, are they familiar to you, these documents? THE WITNESS: Yes; they're training manuals. MR. FRANCIS: If you would, just go through them one-by-one and tell me what each one is; [Employee] 3 is this, [Employee]-4 is this; [Employee]-5 is this; [Employee]-6 is this; and [Employee]-7 is this. MR. LUCKMAN: Just so the 97

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record is clear, of the documents you're looking at now, Exhibit [Employee]-4 was not produced in this case. It is also marked as Defendant's Exhibit 26 and I suspect this was produced in some other litigation against Trans Union involving a fraud case. I don't know whether it's subject to a confidentiality order or not; I'll determine that; and I don't know whether this was provided to you in violation of that agreement or not. I asked you what case it was from. I was guessing it was Coleman versus Trans Union; that case is in the Northern District of Mississippi, but I'll determine that. I guess you don't want to tell me where you got it. MR. FRANCIS: I can tell you, 98

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sitting here today, I don't know the case that it came from, but it is my understanding that it was not produced in any way in any violation of any confidentiality order, that it's a public record from a trial. That's all I know. MR. LUCKMAN: It might be. I'm going to check. I don't know. However, I know that it wasn't produced to you in any case. MR. FRANCIS: Correct. All right, ma'am. Would you just go through them? THE WITNESS: [Employee]-4 is a training manual for our fraud division. MR. FRANCIS: All right? THE WITNESS: [Employee]-3 is the Dispute Training Guide. MR. FRANCIS: [Employee]-3 is the Dispute Training Guide? 99

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THE WITNESS: Right. [Employee]-5 is the CDV Training Manual. [Employee]-6 is the Disclosure Training Manual. [Employee]-7 is just the Introduction to Trans Union and the Consumer Relations System. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. What are these manuals used for? THE WITNESS: They're training material for the associates. MR. FRANCIS: Trans Union's employees? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Including [Employee]-7, the introduction? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Are these current and up-to-date versions of the manuals that Trans Union uses? THE WITNESS: We're in the process of redoing our whole system; 100

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so, the CDV Training Manual might be changed and the Disclosure Training

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Manual, although this is -MR. LUCKMAN: Just so the record is clear, we tried to produce the documents that were current at the time of the disputes in your plaintiffs' cases. Whether there is a later change or there is a change coming, I don't know. THE WITNESS: The only process that is completed in the new system would be the disclosure and the CDV; so, these manuals might be different now. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. If they are, I would ask that they be produced. MR. LUCKMAN: Actually, they would be for a whole new system, consumer relations system, and have nothing to do with any of the cases that are currently pending because 101

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the system is not in place yet. It's for a new system. You can make the request, but I would have to consider it with the client. MR. FRANCIS: Ma'am, is it your testimony today that there aren't any revised or new manuals, but the system is changing; they will be issued forthcoming? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: To your knowledge, they don't exist? These are the most current, up-to-date manuals as of now? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Who authors these manuals? THE WITNESS: The training department. MR. FRANCIS: Is that one of the seven or six different departments? THE WITNESS: Yes. 102

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MR. FRANCIS: The training department? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Who makes up the training department?

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THE WITNESS: Jean Sorenson is the manager. MR. FRANCIS: Does Trans Union maintain any written policies or procedures regarding the process for dispute investigators and CDV operators to perform and handle consumer disputes? THE WITNESS: It would be the instructions in this manual. MR. FRANCIS: When you say, "in this manual," are you referring to one specific one or all of them? THE WITNESS: All of them. MR. FRANCIS: Other than the manuals that we have gone over here, [Employee]-3 through [Employee]-7, are there any other written manuals, policies, or protocols which, in any way, 103

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address the procedure that is to be followed when a consumer disputes information appearing on his or her credit report? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Nothing, other than these manuals? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Are there any memos that Trans Union issues, interdepartmental memos, concerning changes to any of the policies contained in these manuals? THE WITNESS: There might be memos that are handed out. I mean, they would be given to the associates. MR. FRANCIS: Where would they be kept? Who would know about any memos regarding those matters? THE WITNESS: The training department. MR. FRANCIS: So, other than those memos and the manuals that we 104

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have before us, there are no other written statements or policies regarding the procedure that is supposed to be followed when a consumer disputes her credit report? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: [Employee]-4 is entitled, "FVAD Standard Operating

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Procedures"; correct? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What does that mean? THE WITNESS: Fraud Victim Assistance Department. MR. FRANCIS: How does [Employee]-4 differ from the other manuals? THE WITNESS: It's a different process; that's handling fraud. That's not within our center. MR. FRANCIS: Are these manuals given to employees in each individual department? 105

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THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: When are they given to the employees? THE WITNESS: During the training period. MR. FRANCIS: So, if I were to be hired by Trans Union, and I know things are changing now, but putting aside the current state of change, if I were to be hired by Trans Union as a dispute investigator, I would actually be given a copy of [Employee]-3? THE WITNESS: And [Employee]-6. MR. FRANCIS: [Employee]-6, being the Disclosure Training Manual? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: If I were just investigating disputes, why would I be given [Employee]-6? THE WITNESS: Because you learn this process, what information has to be entered into the system, how to pick a file, make your file 106

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selection; then you would go on to that. MR. FRANCIS: Each employee is given a copy of this? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I told you I wasn't going to do it to you; so, I'm not going to make you go through each one, but what I am going to ask you to do is to outline the process by which a consumer dispute is handled

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from the beginning through the end. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Would you just verbally outline that for me, please? A. You're talking about a written dispute? Q. Correct. A. It's received in the mail room; it's out-sorted, disclosure disputes. The disputes are sent to one area and then distributed to the investigators. The operator goes in; if they already have a FIN or file in the consumer 107

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relations department, they input that and bring the file up and then process whatever the consumer is disputing. Q. Then what happens? A. Then it's completed, as far as they're concerned. Q. What is the next stage before the consumer gets a revised report? A. Well, part of the investigator's process is to send the disputed information to the creditor reporting that and then, as far as the disputed piece, that's done. Then we're waiting for the responses to come back in. Q. Those are handled by the CDV operators? A. Either that or they're auto-generated; the response is automated. Q. Once the dispute investigator sends off the CDV or ACDV to the furnisher, their involvement is over? A. The dispute investigator's? Q. Yes. A. Yes; they're done. Q. What happens to the response, if any, 108

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that comes from the furnisher? A. The response is entered into the system or it's auto-generated where the system just reads the response and makes the necessary changes. Q. We're on the CDV side. In which instances are the responses auto-generated versus entered by a clerk in CDV? A. It goes by the subscriber. Q. So, with some subscribers, there's a process set up where the information of the subscriber automatically gets put into the consumer's file?

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A. Right, into the consumer relations system. Q. There is no clerk or associate from Trans Union involved in that process at all? A. No. Q. What percentage of the CDVs or ACDVs that come back from furnishers are handled by the automated system, that you mentioned, versus by manual entry? A. ACDVs are automated. 109

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Auto response is probably like 20 percent and manual is 80 percent. Q. Do I understand correctly or incorrectly that ACDVs are -A. That's an automated process; that's separate from CDVs. Q. I understand somewhat the relationship between ACDVs and CDVs; one is automated and the other is manual; it's a sheet of paper. A. Right. Q. When the responses come back from the furnisher, do I understand correctly that the ACDVs are automatically entered into the CRS system? A. Yes. Q. So, the only manual entries that the CDV operators make are for regular CDVs? A. Yes. Q. After the dispute investigator generates the ACDV to the furnisher, do I understand correctly that there is no other employee or associate that is involved or even sees the response from the furnisher? A. On ACDVs? 110

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Q. Correct. A. There are times that, for some reason, it will fail and it won't match; so, then an operator will have to work with that. Q. However, generally -A. Generally, they're automated responses. Q. So, no one sees the response? A. Right. Q. So, would it be fair to characterize the CDV employees as some type of data entry employee? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: Exactly. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. With regard to the dispute investigators, is there training that they

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have to undergo before they begin their position? A. As a dispute investigator? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. Would you outline their training for me, please? 111

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A. They have a six-week classroom training period on the system. Q. You mean, learning how to use the system? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. Then they are considered a trainee for six months on the floor, but they're processing real work. Q. What are the qualifications or credentials for the dispute investigator position? A. You mean, for hiring off the street? Q. Yes. A. They have to be a high-school graduate; there's a typing test -- well, a data entry test and a language-arts test that they have to complete. Q. What is the language arts test? A. It's their communications skills. Q. How do you evaluate that; what are you looking at, how they read? A. Can they write a letter, their reading comprehension. 112

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Q. What is the rate of turnover in the dispute investigations department? A. In the dispute department? For the whole center from year-to-date, it's 16 percent; so, I'll say, probably, five percent from the dispute department. Q. What is the salary range for a dispute investigator; are they hourly or salaried? A. Hourly. Q. What is the hourly range? A. Probably, from $9.60 to $15.00. Q. Are those full-time positions? A. Yes. Q. 40 hours a week? A. We do have some part time, but 90 percent of them are full time. Q. When you say "full time," you're saying 40 hours a week? A. Yes.

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Q. Do they have eligibility for overtime? A. Yes. Q. Just so it is clear, you mentioned before your 16 percent turnover overall in the 113

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departments? A. Yes, for that whole center. Q. For the whole Crum Lynne center? A. Yes. Q. You are just kind of estimating what that would be for the dispute investigators -A. Yes. Q. -- based upon the employees in dispute investigations overall? A. Yes. Q. You have outlined it very articulately, but I want to focus in a little bit on what specifically the dispute investigator does when he or she gets the consumer's written dispute. Take me through the steps of what they do. A. Okay; they input the consumer's identifying information. Q. Okay? A. If he has an existing FIN or file identification, they will bring up that file. Q. Okay? A. If the consumer disputes Strawbridge's 114

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and he claims it's not his, they'll go in, mark that as disputed, put the claim code that's associated with, "Not Mine," and then that's generated to the creditor. Q. Okay? A. If they dispute a telephone number, then they will make the change on that. Q. When will they actually make the change on the file or to the consumer's credit file versus sending it off? A. (No response). Q. In other words, you said, and correct me if I'm wrong, if the consumer disputes their address, the investigator will make that change right then and there? A. Well, they'll make the change, but it's not updated back to the CRONUS system until all the changes are made and that's only if it's a regular dispute. If it's a mixed file, then they would go in, make the changes -- if the consumer says, "This is not my address," they would make that change, take it off, and then

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pull a new copy. 115

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Q. You mentioned codes. They enter a code regarding a dispute? A. Yes. Q. Do I understand correctly, from the little bit I was able to understand from the manuals and from what I think I know generally, that the dispute investigator looks at the consumer's written dispute and then reduces that to a code that gets transmitted to the furnisher? A. Yes. Q. Does the furnisher ever see the consumer's written dispute? A. No. Q. So, what the furnisher sees is the dispute investigator's characterization of the dispute? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Is there a reason that Trans Union doesn't send the consumer's dispute to the 116

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furnisher or it's just not the policy? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: There's no need. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. What if the consumer includes some type of other document or record or letter along with their written dispute; what happens to that information; does the dispute investigator take any action or any different action if that is the case? A. Depending on what kind of documentation you're talking about, the investigator would have the option of out-sorting that to a team leader or manager and then they'll make a decision if there's a different need. Q. Let's break it down into two camps. If there's no corroborative documentation of the consumer's dispute, there's just the consumer's dispute, either by way of a request form -- that's one form; right? A. Right. 117

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Q. -- or a letter, a handwritten letter or a typewritten letter -- which could be another form; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. -- that will get reduced to a code and then that will be sent to the furnisher; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Then the dispute investigator has no further involvement with that? A. Correct. Q. If there is some other type of document that the consumer asserts corroborates his or her dispute, give me an outline of how that is handled. A. If there's documentation supporting his dispute from the creditor, then we would use the documentation; there would be no need to go back and investigate it; we would have the documentation. Q. Great. What type of documentation are you referring to? A. A letter from the creditor. 118

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Q. Saying whatever; right? A. Right. Q. Is there anything else that would cause a dispute investigator to do that, other than a letter from the creditor? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: To do what? MR. FRANCIS: I think what you just said in that instance is that if there is a letter from the creditor, along with the consumer's dispute, that the dispute investigator may make the correction in the file without even contacting the furnisher; is that correct? THE WITNESS: That's correct. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Other than when there is a letter from the creditor, are there any other times when the dispute investigator would do that, make the correction themself? A. Well, if the consumer states that the account has been closed and they haven't 119

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reported anything in two years, rather than investigate it, we'll just mark it, "Closed

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Per Consumer." Q. So, that would never then go to the furnisher? A. Right. Q. Is there something in writing which outlines the instances when a dispute investigator is either allowed to or undertakes to make the corrections on the consumer's file without contacting the furnisher? A. There are some; I would believe that would be documented in the training manual. I mean, there are certain -another case would be if the trade line has been terminated with the subscriber and they're still reporting it and the consumer disputes it; we would delete it. Authorized users, certain subscribers, they get taken off. Q. Is it your testimony that those instances would be outlined in the training manual? 120 A. They should be in the training manual. Q. Okay. From what I understood before, there are no other documents or manuals, other than the memos, maybe, that you mentioned before that would reference those instances? A. Yes. Q. What happens when a consumer disputes a trade line, doesn't have corroborative documentation and the creditor disputes their dispute; what happens then? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: The information stays on the credit report as reported and the consumer is instructed to either add a statement to his file or go back to the creditor. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Are there any instances in which the dispute investigator would call the consumer to find out more about the dispute? A. No.

121 1 2 3 4 5 Q. Are there any instances in which the dispute investigator would contact any third party, and when I say, "third party," I mean somebody other than the consumer and other than the subscriber to investigate the

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dispute? A. The dispute investigator, if there was a need to do that, based on what the letter states, that would be out-sorted to another area. She would not work that. Q. Why is that? A. Because all they're doing is the data entry. They're reading the letter and inputting that information. If it has to go to another department for a phone call, other verification, then it goes to the priority department. Q. What are the instances when a dispute, received by a dispute investigator, gets sent over to the priority department? A. If the consumer is applying for a 122

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mortgage or student loan, and there's time restrictions on that, that's out-sorted. Q. Anything else? A. (No response). Q. How about if there is no time restriction? A. No. I mean, there would have to be some reason for escalation, as to why it would be out-sorted. Q. I think you said a mortgage or a student loan that had a time constriction on it would cause it to get escalated? A. Yes. Q. Is there anything else that would cause it to get escalated? A. It would depend on what's in the letter. I mean, over my years, they've needed it due to -- if they're trying to get the son a student loan or if they're being denied employment. Q. So, is it fair to say that the reason to transfer the dispute to the priority 123

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department would be something impending? A. Yes. Q. Who does it go to in the priority department, if that occurs? A. We have investigators in that area, as well. Q. What percentage of the disputes that are given to dispute investigators are sent to

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the priority department? A. Probably, five percent and that could be -- when I say, "escalated," that could be fraud disputes, as well, because they would be out-sorted, but they wouldn't go to priority; they would go to Fullerton. Q. The determination to, as the term you used, escalate and take the dispute from the dispute investigator to the priority department or to the fraud department, what is used to determine that? Is it what the consumer says? A. Right, and the investigator's judgment, based on what the consumer says. Q. If the consumer says, I'm trying to apply for a mortgage and I can't get it 124

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because of --" XYZ, that might be the type of thing that would get escalated? A. Right; "I have a mortgage pending; I'm closing in three weeks; I need to have this fixed." Q. All right. Now, I know fraud is a separate issue. Let's take the five percent that are out-sorted to the priority department. What is the procedure then; what happens there? A. Based on the dates pending, those investigators will do telephone verifications on the stuff they can; if not, then they have to open a regular dispute and we wait for the information to come back. Q. From the furnisher? A. Yes. Q. [Employee], do you have any idea of the percentage of repeat disputes that Trans Union receives from the same consumer? A. I would say that it's 10 to 15 percent 125

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of our volume on repeat. Q. Is there any record which would document that more exactly than that? A. Not that I'm aware of, no. Q. What are you basing it on, the 10 to 15 percent? A. A few years ago, we did a study on it, a one-time thing, and you might have repeat activity, it could be on a different dispute, but it's the same consumer over and over again.

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Q. Your recollection from that study was that approximately 10 to 15 percent of the volume received is from repeat consumers? A. Yes. Q. What was that study? A. Just to see what the repeat consumers were. Q. Was that put into some type of document; was that put in writing? A. It probably was then. I don't know that I would still have that. Q. Would somebody have it at Trans Union? 126

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A. No; it was my group that did the study; so, if anyone would have it, it would be me and I don't know that I kept it. When we moved -- I don't know that I would still have that. Q. When you do something like that, a study like that, would that be something that you would keep as part of your records? A. I don't know. When we were moving, I got rid of a lot of stuff. I don't know if I kept that or not. Q. When you say that you moved, you moved from where to where? A. We moved from Springfield to Crum Lynne. Q. Would it be something that would be on your computer or hard drive? A. No. Q. What happens when a dispute investigator gets some type of documentation, other than the consumer's dispute, that comes from a third party, but doesn't come from the 127

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furnisher? A. We wouldn't be able to act on any instructions or anything in there. They're not the furnisher of the information. Q. Would the same process be followed that you mentioned before, where an ACDV or CDV would be generated? A. Yes. Q. So, is it fair to say that the only instance in which the dispute investigator would manually correct the information, the consumer's information, would be when there is documentation from the creditor, itself, or

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the other instances you mentioned? A. That's the policy, yes. Q. Those instances were if the account had been closed for two years -A. Right, and they just wanted to mark it as a closed account; if it was an authorized user, and they were disputing ownership, we would take it off; if the relationship had been terminated on that account, we would just remove it, if it was disputed. 128

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Q. However, if it was a live dispute, if they don't have a letter from the furnisher and the account is currently being reported, whatever the furnisher responds is what gets entered -A. Yes. Q. -- unless it's elevated to priority; then it gets sent to the priority department and then somebody there makes another evaluation; is that correct? A. Well, it would be before the investigator opened the dispute that it would be out-sorted and they would do the process. Q. I've got you. Just turning for a moment to the CDV side, after a CDV or ACDV is generated to the furnisher, when the furnisher sends back his response, either in an automated fashion or a manual fashion -- correct? A. Yes. Q. -- does the furnisher have to respond with any particular criteria of information about the consumer prior to that information getting entered into the consumer's file? 129

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MR. LUCKMAN: I am going to object to the form. THE WITNESS: They would have to respond to the disputed information. Whatever, you know, we're telling them the consumer is disputing, they have to respond and answer that piece of it, yes. MR. FRANCIS: What I'm asking is this: Is there any requirement that the CDV or ACDV from the furnisher set forth certain information before it gets entered back into the consumer's file? THE WITNESS: They have to

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answer the dispute. MR. FRANCIS: I'm not going to go mark this, but this will clear up my question real fast. I've seen CDVs, for example, where on the left-hand side, there is the consumer's name, there is the 130

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address, their Social Security number, date of birth, all on the left-hand side, and there's a box down here that says, "Verified as Reported," something like that? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Then I thought there was information that the furnisher had to enter on the right-hand side and if the information didn't match up, it wouldn't get entered on the consumer's file; is that incorrect? THE WITNESS: Yes. Suppose the identifying information doesn't relate to the dispute; if the dispute is paid, never delinquent, we don't need to verify the ID again; that's only required on an ID dispute. MR. FRANCIS: I've got you; okay. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. What types of comments from a consumer 131

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would amount to an ID dispute? A. "Not My Account"; "I don't remember this account." Q. Anything else? A. No. Q. In that instance, what information would have to come back? What would have to be verified by the furnisher? A. They would have to verify two pieces of ID; name, address, Social. Q. Any two of those; name and Social would be fine? A. Name and Social would be fine. Q. Name and date of birth would be fine? A. Yes. Q. You mentioned before that Trans Union is going through this change? A. Yes. Q. That is why the manuals may not reflect current, up-to-date things?

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A. Yes. Q. What do you mean by, it's going through a change; what is the change? A. We're making the system more automated, 132

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less screens for the operator to have to go through to complete the dispute. We're hoping to get -- right now, the CDV process and ACDV process has gone through major changes with the other two industries; they're all going to use metro codes. Q. Without getting into the whole thing, because I don't think it's relevant to this case that much, how is it currently that subscribers enter information into the Trans Union system? A. They report through automated tape. Q. Is that metro or is it not metro? A. That is in metro codes, yes. Q. I'm not sure I understood when you said there was a change; they would all have to be in metro. I'm not sure I understood. A. Well, the response codes, everyone, all three credit reporting industries will use the same codes; they'll be the same form. Q. Okay. Is it fair to say then that part of this change will be an effort to make 133

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things more efficient? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: This case is called [Consumer] versus Trans Union. Ma'am, earlier, some time ago, you said that you reviewed documents that were included with [Employee]-1. Do you remember that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I would like to ask you some questions about the history of [Consumer]'s communications with Trans Union. MR. LUCKMAN: Before you start, let's clear away the piles of stuff on the table. MR. MAILMAN: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). MR. FRANCIS: Now, we're moving to [Consumer], but as we do

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that, I am going to ask you to take a 134

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look at these documents. I am going to ask you to define certain terms for me. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. FRANCIS: I have looked through the same file that you looked through, although I'm sure it will be much faster if you go through it with me, and I would like to have you define certain terms for me. Going through these documents, I see a record called, "Trade Set Detail." Are you familiar with that term? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What is a Trade Set Detail. THE WITNESS: That would be showing you the trade line, broken down into all the fields that's being reported on the credit report. MR. FRANCIS: Versus other things, such as what is called, 135

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"Letter Contents Display" and "Comments Display and Entry"? I'm still not sure I understand what the Trade Set Detail is. Why would you look at that? What information would that tell you? THE WITNESS: Because then I would be able to find out what the original trade line looked like and the change in the trade line, if there was a correction made. MR. FRANCIS: So, is it fair to say that the Trade Set Detail references the history of trade lines that have been disputed and any changes, if any, that were made by Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: So, if a consumer never disputed their credit report, there wouldn't be any information contained in the Trade Set Detail; is that correct? 136

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THE WITNESS: Right; you would have to expand and just look at the trade line. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Either what screen or document would be the best or most accurate history of a consumer's dispute with Trans Union; would that be the Trade Set Detail? A. Yes. Q. Does the Trade Set Detail list when they first contacted Trans Union about the dispute? A. The date of receipt is on that screen. Q. What happens if a consumer were to dispute the same trade, say, three or four times; what would be referenced on the Trade Set Detail? A. Nothing; if it's disputed two and three times -- actually sent the CDV out? Q. Yes. A. Then you would have the trade set for each line item that they did each time they did it. Q. Would there be something on the Trade 137

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Set Detail that would reference that this person has contacted you three times? A. Not on that screen, no. Q. What screen would that be referenced on? A. You would have to look at the history to show when you received the dispute from them, all of the activity. Q. Is that screen called, "History"? A. "History Search Summary Screen," I believe it's called. Q. What does that screen lay out? A. It will give you the status of a dispute; it will give you the date you received it, all the line items; if you sent a letter, the status of the dispute. Q. Would there be any record, either in the Trade Set Detail, the History Search Summary screen, or some other record which would indicate if a consumer disputed his or her credit report and a CDV was generated to the furnisher? A. I'm working off the dispute now and if I go back and I wanted to look at the history 138

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to see if there were previous disputes, I would look at the history to determine that.

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Q. The history would indicate how many times a consumer disputed his or her credit report? A. Right; it outlines all the activity we received on that consumer. Q. If somebody disputes a trade line on their credit report, would the dispute investigator look at the History Search Summary screen in any instance? A. That's the first screen -- once you put in the consumer's file number, that's the first screen that comes up. Q. So, I guess the answer would be "Yes," they would see that? A. Yes. MR. LUCKMAN: What Mr. Francis was saying was that "Yes" was the answer to the question. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Just so I understand this, when a dispute investigator processes a dispute, the first screen they see is the History Search 139

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Summary screen? A. Yes. Q. What do they do then; do they make any changes to that or if they're going to issue a CDV or ACDV, how do they actually do that? A. Okay; they can't change anything on the history search. That's Trans Union's record of the activity. Q. Okay? A. So, the first thing that they do then is going to be part of that history. Q. Okay? A. If it's a disclosure, it will tell you when he got a copy of the disclosure; if it's a dispute, it will tell you the dispute. Then you would have to go in and expand on that to see what was disputed, what trade lines. Q. Putting aside looking at the history, how do they actually generate a CDV or ACDV; do they go in some part of the screen and hit a button? A. There are prompted fields and they 140

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would put the dispute code in there. MR. FRANCIS: There is something called, "Letter Contents Display." Do you know what that is?

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THE WITNESS: That's showing you what letter we sent out to the consumer. MR. FRANCIS: So, Trans Union maintains a history of any letters that it sends to consumers? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: How about, "Comment Display and Entry"? THE WITNESS: Well, this is a "Comment" field where the investigator/CDV operator can enter comments based on the response, if they needed to. MR. FRANCIS: So, that's entered by the CDV operator? THE WITNESS: The CDV or dispute operator. MR. FRANCIS: There's a 141

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screen for consumer address information? THE WITNESS: Right; if there's a change made to that field, then it captures that. MR. MAILMAN: Can we go off the record for a minute? (Discussion off the record). BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Are ACDV responses from furnishers maintained as a record by Trans Union or are they just noted in the history? A. They are noted in the history. You can go back and print them up to a certain period of time. Q. How long does Trans Union maintain them? A. I don't know. I would have to get you that. I don't know. Q. How about hard copy CDVs, the actual pages; are they maintained by Trans Union? A. Yes. Q. All CDVs? 142

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A. Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What I am going to do is hand [Employee]-1 back to you; you can refer to it or not refer to it; it is your choice. From having reviewed those documents and from what you know, please go through the plaintiff's

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dispute history with Trans Union, tell me when he first contacted Trans Union and take me up to the current time as to what has occurred. Do those records tell you that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. LUCKMAN: You don't want to ask questions? What do you want from her? MR. FRANCIS: I want her to go through the history. I want Trans Union's history of what happened. I know what our client says; I know what [Consumer]'s says, but I want to 143

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find out what her records indicate, what Trans Union's records indicate, concerning the history of his dispute. MR. LUCKMAN: So, what is your question? MR. FRANCIS: I'm going to ask her to take me through the history, when he first contacted Trans Union, what Trans Union did in response and what information it got from any of the disputed trade lines. MR. LUCKMAN: All right. THE WITNESS: All right. Well, the first activity starts in December of '99. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: It was an internal disclosure pulled; it was in response to a telephone call. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: I would have to -- the report was "No Printed"; so, it could be that he just had a 144

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general question. I can only tell that he called and someone pulled the report and then cancelled it. It was never sent to him. MR. FRANCIS: Let me go through it systematically. What record is indicating to you that that occurred, that 12/99 contact? THE WITNESS: Internal

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disclosure; then his file number is created for him. MR. FRANCIS: Right? THE WITNESS: This is the date we received it. This "J" tells me it was a telephone call. The "Status" is "Closed." MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: This is the date it was closed. It was "No Printed." This is how it was pulled, 145

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under what 52 code. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. What you are looking at, just so it is clear for the record, is a document in [Employee]-1, the heading of which is, "Consumer Relations System, History Search Summary"? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Is this the History Search Summary that you mentioned before? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: So, that was the first time he had any contact with Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: A file was opened at that point, the number? THE WITNESS: His file number, yes. MR. FRANCIS: Why wouldn't a report have been sent to him? THE WITNESS: I don't know the basis of the conversation. 146

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I mean, he could have just asked a general question; I don't know. MR. FRANCIS: Is there any mention in the "Comment" screen that somebody said something; is there anything documenting any conversation he had with somebody? THE WITNESS: You can tell by looking at this that there's a comment because of that "Y"; that's what I was looking for, the comments. There's no "Comment" screen from that period, but this comment

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could have been put on once the action was filed because then the FIN is locked and that "Comment," that "Y" can just reference that, but there's no other "Comment" screen for that FIN number in this package. MR. FRANCIS: What does that mean, "the FIN is locked"? THE WITNESS: Well, it's locked so it doesn't archive; it 147

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stays in the system because there is litigation. MR. FRANCIS: What stays in the system? THE WITNESS: This history. After a certain period, since there's no activity on it, it will archive. MR. FRANCIS: Do you how long that is before information will archive? MR. LUCKMAN: When it's not locked? MR. FRANCIS: It's not immediately; right? THE WITNESS: As long as there is no activity, within, I believe, it's four months. MR. FRANCIS: Are you saying that if somebody has contact with Trans Union and then there is no further contact for a period of four months, if you were to go into the History Search Summary, it would 148

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reference that contact, but after four months, it would be gone? THE WITNESS: Right; you would have to create a new FIN. As you can see, that's what was done in April when he contacted us, but you would get a message, telling you that there's archived information and you would be able to restore it. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; so, it does exist somewhere? THE WITNESS: Oh, it does exist, but it's just not in the system. MR. FRANCIS: Are you saying to me that there is archived

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information that you don't have before us? THE WITNESS: No, because we went back and restored everything. This was archived probably when we got the Complaint; we went back and restored everything. 149

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MR. FRANCIS: I've got you. What are the instances in which a consumer disclosure wouldn't be sent to the consumer? THE WITNESS: The information doesn't match, didn't supply enough information, if there's a charge. MR. FRANCIS: There is no way that you can tell? THE WITNESS: Not based on this. This was a telephone call. Like I said, I don't know. MR. FRANCIS: Does Trans Union maintain any documents that would reference anything more than we have before us? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: What do your records reveal to be the next contact, either from Trans Union to [Consumer] or [Consumer] to Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Okay; the next 150

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we received was an internal disclosure, 4/13/2000, and that request was cancelled. He was sent a letter for more information on April 17th. MR. FRANCIS: You have mentioned that term, "internal disclosure," twice. What does that mean, "internal disclosure"? THE WITNESS: We're pulling it for our records. MR. FRANCIS: I understand. You said there was a cancelled request. What does that mean; it means the consumer requested something and somebody made the determination not to send out the information? THE WITNESS: We couldn't

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process whatever it was because we needed more identifying information on him. MR. FRANCIS: To generate a 151

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consumer disclosure, what identification information would you need from the consumer? THE WITNESS: Name, address, Social, previous address. MR. FRANCIS: Is there any other reason that a disclosure wouldn't be sent? THE WITNESS: Well, in this consumer's case, I'll use that, he had two files, two different names, same Social; so, they didn't send either file; they asked for more identification. MR. FRANCIS: Do the records indicate, one way or the other, whether he provided that information? THE WITNESS: He does later, yes. MR. FRANCIS: However, not at that time? THE WITNESS: Well, we sent it out April 17th. He responds back in May 152

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sometime. MR. FRANCIS: The 4/13/2000 contact that you mentioned, was that a telephone call or was that a written contact? THE WITNESS: No; that was written. MR. FRANCIS: How can you tell that? THE WITNESS: Because there's no "J" here. If it was a telephone call, there would be a "J" there. MR. FRANCIS: You are now looking on page two of the History Search Summary; is that correct? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: You said a letter was sent to him? THE WITNESS: A letter was sent to him, yes. MR. FRANCIS: On what date? THE WITNESS: April 17th.

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Do you know

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what that letter said? THE WITNESS: It was asking for more information, identifying information. MR. FRANCIS: You mentioned before that the reason the request was cancelled on 4/13/200 was because it indicated that he had two files? THE WITNESS: Well, the system did. The system came back, based on the information he provided, the system came back with two files, two different first names and the same Social. MR. FRANCIS: How can you tell that; is that in there? THE WITNESS: That's in the "Comment" section here. MR. FRANCIS: The "Comment" section is a document in [Employee]-1 that in the upper right corner has "037." Are these page numbers, essentially; this is 16 and this is 154

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37? THE WITNESS: No. The "KK," that's a screen number; I don't know what the other numbers are. MR. FRANCIS: The document entitled, "Comment Display and Entry," would you just interpret what that says to you? THE WITNESS: This is the investigator who processed the initial request and the comments that she left in the system are, "Tran2 pulled up a [Consumers first name] and Anthony with same Social." MR. FRANCIS: Then as a result of that, a letter was generated to him? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: So, what happens was, when the internal disclosure was made, it indicated that there were possibly two files involved here? 155

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THE WITNESS: Well, there were two files involved. MR. FRANCIS: Are you saying that based upon your review of the records? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything in the records which indicates what, if anything, else he sent along with his letter on 4/13/2000, any other documents? THE WITNESS: It was his letter and a copy of the denial letter. MR. FRANCIS: How do you know that? THE WITNESS: It's attached to the document. MR. FRANCIS: So, it is a hard copy. You are looking at a hard copy that you have? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Is there 156

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anything in the records which indicates that or are you just seeing that because it's in his file? THE WITNESS: I'm just seeing it as a hard copy. You wouldn't see it there. MR. FRANCIS: What was the next thing that happened? THE WITNESS: So, the 4/13 letter is done. We sent him a response for more information. Then on May 8th, another internal disclosure is pulled. May 8th, he responds to our request. He sends back the form with the information. So, they go back and pull the original dispute letter from 4/13. They do an internal pull. They make a correction, cancel that corrected copy, because then they're going to repull it, and they make another correction. 157

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This will show you which corrections they made.

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Everything would have the same FIN number, but then you have different transaction numbers; so, "005" was a correction. So, they went in and added the previous address. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. This was in response to what he wrote? THE WITNESS: To the May 8th letter. MR. FRANCIS: To the May 8th letter? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything that indicates what he sent with the May 8th letter? THE WITNESS: He sent back the form that we had requested him to fill out. We had to go back and repull this, based on the comments. 158

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MR. FRANCIS: However, the records don't show that he sent anything back, a copy of his driver's license or anything like that? THE WITNESS: All he sent back was this letter, this form. MR. FRANCIS: The form that at the top has, "Trans Union" on the right, and it says, "Please Print or Type the Following Information"? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Do you see handwriting at the top of that? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: What does that say? THE WITNESS: That's our investigator's -- they pulled the previous letter from 4/13. MR. FRANCIS: His previous letter? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That letter was, again, the denial letter? 159

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THE WITNESS: It was a copy of his denial letter, a letter from National City and the Key Alternative, the criteria. MR. FRANCIS: What you are

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

saying is that Trans Union on April 13, 2000 received his April 2, 2000 letter, along with -THE WITNESS: April 13th. MR. FRANCIS: -- April 13th, along with the March 10, 2000 denial -THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: -- the letter from National City, dated January 20, 2000 -THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: -- and the back of, it looks like, the Key denial letter? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I notice that there appear to be copies of his envelopes? 160

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THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Is that a customary practice for Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes; we maintain everything. MR. FRANCIS: Even down to the envelope that a consumer sends, Trans Union keeps hard copies of that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: How long does Trans Union maintain those hard copies? THE WITNESS: Two years. MR. FRANCIS: We are back in May, May 8th. You mentioned that there were corrections made to his file. Can you tell me what corrections were made to his file? THE WITNESS: On the first line of his corrections, they went in and added a previous address, changed the name and updated all the 161

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addresses on the other report. Then they shipped this back to the CRONUS system so it combines into one file because now, they both have the same name. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. Let me ask you something: Doesn't this indicate that

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there may be another person out there whose information is being mixed with his? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: No, because it had the same Social Security number, the same address. MR. FRANCIS: If it were a mixed file situation, couldn't that arise that way? THE WITNESS: But they wouldn't combine it if it did have all the similar information and, based on this, now, he's giving you both names; so, we know that's the 162

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right thing to do; he uses both names. MR. FRANCIS: [Consumer]? THE WITNESS: Right. In the initial contact, we didn't know that. MR. FRANCIS: What was the next contact? THE WITNESS: Then the next correction is Tran-007; that's just an internal pull. MR. FRANCIS: What does that mean to you? THE WITNESS: They just pulled a new copy. After they combined the files to make it one, then they did a new pull; so, that would be that. Then there was a correction made again and there is nothing here for that transaction number; so, I can't tell you what correction was made here because we don't have one 163

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of the documents. MR. FRANCIS: When you say you don't have them, do they exist but they are not here or they don't exist at all? THE WITNESS: I would say, they're not here. MR. FRANCIS: Could you make a search after this deposition and see if it exists somewhere? MR. LUCKMAN: Tell him what

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

it is. MR. FRANCIS: What would it be? THE WITNESS: It's Tran-008. I'm certain now they just went in -- because now, they're working from both letters, the 5/8 and the 4/13, and they were going to open a dispute based on the letter from National City, but it wasn't on file; so, it could be that it's no correction. MR. LUCKMAN: Off the record. 164

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(Discussion off the record). MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything indicating in the records from Trans Union's perspective what he received? THE WITNESS: This is what he received on May 12th. MR. FRANCIS: The document that you are handing me, it looks like a consumer disclosure, but it is not quite. Would you tell me what this is? MR. LUCKMAN: Just so the record is clear, we generate these things out of the system after the lawsuit is filed. They look a little bit different than what the consumer might get; so, if the consumer had it for May 12th, the font is a little different, the format is a little different. Sometimes, the letters come 165

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out with different dates if we generate them after the fact; they will come out with "May 13," instead of "May 12." The disclosures always have the right dates. MR. FRANCIS: I should ask [Employee] this, not you. MR. LUCKMAN: I just wanted to clear this up. MR. FRANCIS: Based on what Mr. Luckman just said, how is it that this report could be generated after the fact and capture exactly what was

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

reported at a particular time? THE WITNESS: Because we sent the corrections to the CRONUS database and then pulled it back into the system with the corrections. MR. FRANCIS: So, what you are saying is, Trans Union is able to go back and capture what was reported at a particular time? MR. LUCKMAN: Objection to 166

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the form. That was not what she said. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Correct me if I'm wrong, ma'am. This is a document that is dated 5/12/2000; correct? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Mr. Luckman was just talking about this document and he was saying this was something that was accessed or generated after the lawsuit was filed. THE WITNESS: Well, you can go back in and reprint it. You're not regenerating it. It's captured in the system as it is once we make those changes; that stays with the history. All we did was special print it. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; I understand. 167

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Correct me if I'm wrong; every time a consumer disclosure is generated, there is a way to go back at a later date and find out exactly what was reported? MR. LUCKMAN: To the consumer? MR. FRANCIS: To the consumer. THE WITNESS: As long as we sent him the disclosure and it's in our records, yes. MR. FRANCIS: What if it's a subscriber version of a credit report? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: There is no way

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to capture what was reported? THE WITNESS: You would have to get the original copy from the subscriber. MR. FRANCIS: In Trans Union's records, you would in no way be able to go back and find out what 168

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was reported, say, for example, in an inquiry from Key Bank, what was reported on 3/9/2000? THE WITNESS: That's correct. MR. FRANCIS: There is no way Trans Union would know what was reported? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Again, how is it that you are able to capture it if it goes to a consumer, but you're not able to recapture it if it goes to a furnisher? THE WITNESS: Because we're maintaining our own records; we're capturing that history; so, it stays with the consumer. MR. FRANCIS: I've got you; I understand. So, 5/12/2000, he got a consumer report that looked something like this? THE WITNESS: It's just formatted slightly different. 169

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MR. LUCKMAN: If you hold it next to one of the ones that he gave you, it will be the same information, but it will just look a little differently, not a big difference. Off the record. (Discussion off the record). MR. FRANCIS: What do you want to call this report from 5/12/2000? It's not a consumer disclosure because it wasn't what he received. MR. LUCKMAN: No, no. THE WITNESS: He did receive this. MR. LUCKMAN: That's what was sent to him. This is just a version that was special printed after the fact out of the CRS, but it is what he was

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sent. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. The version of the 5/12/2000 consumer disclosure that he received, 170

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there is a comment here that indicates, "Input current address reported as suspicious." What does that mean? THE WITNESS: They are from our Hawk database. That information was loaded into that database; so, based on our input, it would pull any messages relating to that address. MR. FRANCIS: How would that information get on there? How would a Hawk message be generated? Why would it say "suspicious"; what does that mean? THE WITNESS: That address or one of the addresses on here was reported as suspicious to whoever maintains the Hawk database. MR. FRANCIS: Who would make that type of report; who would say that? THE WITNESS: It could be a subscriber. 171

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MR. FRANCIS: Let me back up for one second. You are taking me through the history of his contacts with Trans Union. Other than what we have before us, is there any independent record that Trans Union would keep concerning telephone calls that he made to Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Every telephone call would be recorded on here. MR. FRANCIS: What was the next contact that he made? THE WITNESS: We also received return mail; that was 6/1. Then the next contact is June 7th and that's a telephone call. MR. FRANCIS: From him? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Is there any indication in any of the records what he said, what the content of the

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telephone call was? 172

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THE WITNESS: Okay; another thing, when he was sent that credit report on 5/12, he was also sent a letter, telling him the disputed item was not part of his credit report. MR. FRANCIS: The disputed item, is that referring to National City? THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay; then we get return mail. MR. FRANCIS: How do you know that; what indicates that? THE WITNESS: That "R." Then there is a comment in the system. MR. FRANCIS: What do "K" and "J" mean? THE WITNESS: "J" is a telephone dispute -- or a telephone contact. There was a consumer disclosure. They processed that on June 7th; then they went in and made 173

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a correction on June 7th. MR. FRANCIS: How do you know "J" is a telephone call from him to Trans Union versus a Trans Union employee's calling him? THE WITNESS: They wouldn't call him, not from this area, anyway. Priority would make a call to him. MR. FRANCIS: Fine. We are in the dispute investigations department; is that correct? THE WITNESS: No; we're in the telephone department. MR. FRANCIS: We're in the telephone department now; okay. Do I understand, from what you are saying, that the dispute investigations department and the telephone department, they don't call consumers? THE WITNESS: The telephone department, if there was a need to 174

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call someone back, they would. MR. FRANCIS: Is there a policy, one way or the other, when they are supposed to contact consumers? THE WITNESS: The majority of the time, they don't. They would pass it on to someone else to make the call. MR. FRANCIS: Who would that be? THE WITNESS: It could be one of their team leaders. It would get out-sorted to a senior rep in that telephone group. MR. FRANCIS: In what instances would it be out-sorted for somebody to make a telephone call to a consumer? THE WITNESS: If the consumer requested to speak to a supervisor, if they needed something done right away. MR. FRANCIS: Priority? 175

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THE WITNESS: Yes. Then you don't have the document that would show you what change was made on 6/7. MR. FRANCIS: What document would show that? THE WITNESS: It would be a screen print of what was done, the same as these. MR. FRANCIS: Why don't I have that? MR. LUCKMAN: Which number is that? THE WITNESS: It's Tran-013. MR. LUCKMAN: 013? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: When you say, "Tran-013" and before, you said, "Tran-008," these are the documents we don't have; right? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: What are they? THE WITNESS: It would show you what correction was made on 176

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June 7th. MR. FRANCIS:

What is the

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document that you are referring to that we don't have? What is it specifically? Is it some type of record? THE WITNESS: It would be -see, I don't know what screen it would be. It's a screen, detailing -it's one of the detail screens, either trade, public record or address. There was some change made. MR. FRANCIS: So, it's a public record or trade set, some type of detail screen, entitled "008" or "013" and we just don't have that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Obviously, I ask that that be produced. MR. LUCKMAN: Yes. I don't know what the story is with that. 177

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MR. FRANCIS: To the best that you can, what appears to have happened here? THE WITNESS: On June 7th, he sent a copy of the report. MR. FRANCIS: A copy of the May disclosure? THE WITNESS: No, the June disclosure, the June 7th. MR. LUCKMAN: Is that not there? THE WITNESS: That's there. He sent a copy of this report. MR. FRANCIS: A copy of the 6/7/2000 disclosure? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: He sent it into Trans Union? MR. LUCKMAN: No. THE WITNESS: No. There's a telephone request; there's a conversation on the phone. We respond and send him a 178

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copy of this report. MR. FRANCIS: Do you know what date you sent it? THE WITNESS: June 7th. MR. FRANCIS: Then he sent it

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back to you? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Okay? THE WITNESS: June 19th is the next correspondence. MR. FRANCIS: Oh, okay. So, June 7th, Trans Union sent his disclosure to him? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That disclosure? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That was in response to a telephone call? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What was the next activity on his file? THE WITNESS: June 19th. This again is a telephone 179

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call. The operator that he speaks to writes it up and passes it to the priority department. MR. FRANCIS: June 19th was another telephone call? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What document are you looking at? THE WITNESS: The Telephone Request Form. MR. FRANCIS: That refers to the situation that you testified to some time ago, when it got transferred to another department? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What physically happened; the operator in this case did what? THE WITNESS: She talks to the consumer, takes down the dispute, finds out what the problem is, why it needs to be escalated, fills this form out and then passes it to the 180

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priority department. MR. FRANCIS: Does that record indicate why this dispute got escalated? THE WITNESS: There was a student loan, Sallie Mae pending. MR. FRANCIS: We're talking now about the dispute investigator?

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THE WITNESS: The telephone investigator is taking all this. MR. FRANCIS: The telephone investigator filled out that form? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Was [Consumer] on the line? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything in that dispute that indicates what was discussed, other than his saying that there was a pending student loan? THE WITNESS: She's taking down the information as to what he's disputing. 181

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MR. FRANCIS: What does that indicate to you that he was disputing? THE WITNESS: Three federal tax liens that's not his. MR. FRANCIS: That was it? THE WITNESS: Then there's a comment at the screen that the consumer called back with the contact name at the courts for us to verify it. MR. FRANCIS: Is there any indication that he disputed the National City account? THE WITNESS: Not in this dispute, no. MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything indicating that his conversation was in reference to the 6/7 disclosure? THE WITNESS: I'm sorry; say that again. MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything that references or indicates 182

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that what he was disputing was information that appeared on his June 7th disclosure? THE WITNESS: No, other than the information that he's disputing was on that. MR. LUCKMAN: Can I see the June 7th one for a second? THE WITNESS: The report? MR. LUCKMAN: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Does it

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reference who that investigator was? THE WITNESS: It has my operator number. MR. FRANCIS: The operator who wrote this up? THE WITNESS: Yes, but I would have to look this up. I mean, I would have to go back and translate the operator number. MR. FRANCIS: You don't have the documents here for that? THE WITNESS: No. 183

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MR. FRANCIS: That's fine. However, you could do that at a later date? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: If I wanted to find out what these operators had to say, we could find out who they were? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What then happened; the operator took that physical document and made a notation in his credit file or how did it work? Did they make a notation and physically take it somewhere? THE WITNESS: They physically take this to priority and then the same day, they'd pick it up. MR. FRANCIS: Priority would pick it up? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Did that investigator make any note in the record or in the file to indicate that this had been elevated to the 184

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priority department? THE WITNESS: Yes; she put a comment in the file that she sent it to priority. That's this one. MR. FRANCIS: What was the next thing that anybody from Trans Union did? THE WITNESS: Then a dispute is opened. This will show you what action they took and what the dispute was. This was on a federal tax

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lien. An "002," they have to provide ownership. MR. FRANCIS: Who is the "they"? THE WITNESS: The court, the subscriber, okay, and this was cloaked. MR. FRANCIS: What does that mean? 185

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THE WITNESS: It was removed. MR. FRANCIS: When you say that they have to provide ownership, I don't understand. A dispute is opened. Is there a CDV sent to the entity that's reporting this? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Can you tell who was the person reporting these tax liens? THE WITNESS: It's a vendor. I don't have the vendor. MR. FRANCIS: It was a vendor who reports public judgments and data records to Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: That vendor gathers the information from the courts and is kind of a third-party intermediary who disseminates that to Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Do we know at 186

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all why, all of a sudden, these tax liens began appearing in June of 2000. THE WITNESS: What was your original question? MR. FRANCIS: My question is, these are all tax liens? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: Since it's getting late in the day, I'll try to move through it quickly. These are all tax liens. Is there anything in the records that indicates why, all of a sudden, they started appearing on this 20-year-old's credit report? THE WITNESS: No.

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MR. FRANCIS: Do you know how that could have been? In other words, why weren't they there before; what would explain that? THE WITNESS: There could have been another file in the system 187

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and now it's matching an address and then it combines itself on line. MR. FRANCIS: Is it possible what happened was, when the Trans Union employees merged two files together, that caused this information to start appearing here? THE WITNESS: No, because the 5/12 report we sent him, they weren't on there, and that's when we merged them, but depending on what Sallie Mae put on their inquiry, it could have forced another file to combine. MR. FRANCIS: How would an inquiry from Sallie Mae have caused a change in the information that you're reporting about him? THE WITNESS: If they're inputting different information, maybe a third previous or another previous, you might get another file selection, which the files would combine. So, then they opened a 188

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dispute on -- they opened it on a tax lien; so, that's removed. MR. FRANCIS: When you say that they opened a dispute, what does that mean? THE WITNESS: That sent the verification form out. MR. FRANCIS: A hard CDV or ACDV? THE WITNESS: A CDV. MR. FRANCIS: Does it indicate what came back; did it come back or what? THE WITNESS: It came back, verified name, address, undetermined previous address and a different Social. MR. FRANCIS: So, on the basis of that, Trans Union -THE WITNESS: -- removed it.

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MR. FRANCIS: Why was that? I thought you said before that if there are two items, two pieces of information, that match, 189

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then it would stay on? THE WITNESS: Okay; let me see how they worked this, because it's definitely giving us a different Social Security number, which is telling you that it's a different person. Even though two pieces match, there is something different, and that's why. Based on that difference, we would take it off. We couldn't leave it on if we knew it had a different Social. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: The next one is the other federal tax lien. Their response is, they're verifying a change in the name; they have the same name, but they're also adding, I guess, the spouse's name and her Social Security number; so, they list that as a change. MR. FRANCIS: Okay? 190

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THE WITNESS: The "N" is no change to the address; undetermined previous, undetermined second previous and the change in the Social; they're giving you a different Social; so, therefore, it had to come off. MR. FRANCIS: This is the CDV back from the vendor, that you mentioned before, concerning the tax lien? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What physically happens; the CDV operator makes that change? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: The CDV operator, just so that I'm clear, is supposed to delete the information from the credit file if it comes back with a different Social Security number? THE WITNESS: Yes.

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MR. FRANCIS: 191

And it cloaks

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it? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What does cloaking involve? It sounds like a mystical term. Is this hitting a button, this cloaking? THE WITNESS: It's entering a date. MR. FRANCIS: It's entering a date? THE WITNESS: Right, and it's a prompted field. You enter the date in there as to when you're doing it and it's cloaked. MR. FRANCIS: What that means is that any time the credit report is accessed by your subscriber or the consumer, that information doesn't get released? THE WITNESS: That's correct. MR. FRANCIS: Is that 192

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cloaking permanent? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: I have heard terminology about a soft delete and a hard delete. Are you familiar with that terminology? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: So, once information is cloaked, it's permanently cloaked? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: How does the Trans Union system know what to cloak? In other words, is the cloaked based on the Social Security number; is the cloak based on name; or is the cloak based on the trade line information, itself? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: Whenever you're cloaking, you're doing it based on the individual. 193

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We're cloaking this because it has a different Social; so, that's our reason for that. So, again, this subscriber, it's a public record, came back with the same name, same address, different Social; so, it was taken off. This is a federal tax lien; again, I don't know if this is the same one. Two of them are pointing out that there's a change to the name. The name is exactly the same as reported. MR. FRANCIS: These are all for the tax liens; right? THE WITNESS: Right, but they're giving you the spouse's information, as well, but they're telling you there's a change because they have a different Social; so, this would have been cloaked. MR. FRANCIS: The spouse's 194

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information, that doesn't get on to his credit report; does it? THE WITNESS: No; it's just providing you with additional identifying information. MR. FRANCIS: Doesn't this CDV indicate that this is the wrong person? THE WITNESS: Right; off this tax lien, yes. MR. FRANCIS: So, Trans Union cloaked this account? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Did anybody from Trans Union take any other steps? THE WITNESS: No. Then there are the trade lines; okay? First USA Bank, it was cloaked based on the response. They verified his S.S. It's just a different format of what you looked at on the ACDV. 195

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MR. FRANCIS: THE WITNESS:

Okay. So, they're

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verifying the same name, the same address, a different previous address, a different Social Security number. MR. FRANCIS: The S.S., is that just done in order? THE WITNESS: The Trans Union person would know to look at it. Each one represents a field. The first one is the name; the second is the address, the third is previous, and the fourth one is the Social Security number. MR. FRANCIS: Let me ask it in reference to before because I'm still not sure I understood. I thought you said before that there are instances where if a CDV comes back and two of the items are correct, the information stays on. THE WITNESS: It would, but 196

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there's a definite difference here. Even though you have two matching pieces, you have a definite difference. MR. FRANCIS: I've got you, versus just an absence of information? THE WITNESS: Yes. If it wasn't there, then it would stay on, if we didn't have a Social; that's exactly right. MR. FRANCIS: I've got you. I thought before you said that the only thing he had disputed at this point were the tax liens; is that correct? THE WITNESS: Unless there was another conversation with the priority department. I don't know that because he does call back to provide information for the tax liens; so, at that time, he might have given additional -well, he had to give additional 197

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disputes. MR. FRANCIS: That's because, initially, you're saying, the record indicates all he disputed were the tax liens?

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THE WITNESS: Correct, and he calls back and talks to someone else. MR. FRANCIS: That was when he disputed other things, such as the First USA account? THE WITNESS: Right; there's a number of them. MR. FRANCIS: There's an acronym next to those four pieces of information, "DAVE." Could you tell me what that means? THE WITNESS: "Documentation Authorization Verification Explanation." MR. FRANCIS: You mentioned before, when I was asking you about -THE WITNESS: That's really a 198

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joke; that's the VP's name. MR. FRANCIS: Oh, really? MR. LUCKMAN: That's a secret. MR. FRANCIS: What does "DAVE" indicate when you see it on a page, other than a joke? THE WITNESS: That would tell us what the creditor verified. MR. FRANCIS: It's really based on Dave Wolff? MR. LUCKMAN: It coincides with his name; the acronym coincides with his name. MR. FRANCIS: I've got you. THE WITNESS: He thinks it's for him. MR. FRANCIS: I've got you. You were showing me what was going on with the First USA account. THE WITNESS: It was disputed. It comes back. They verify the name, 199

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address, different previous, different Social and date of birth; so, that's removed. MR. FRANCIS: That is which account? THE WITNESS: First USA. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; fine. THE WITNESS: The next one

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

would be National City. They verify -- "035" means it was verified as reported. MR. FRANCIS: That's a code? THE WITNESS: Yes. They verify same name, same address; they have no previous and no Social. MR. FRANCIS: Who entered the 035? I guess that was the CDV operator? THE WITNESS: No, this is an auto response. MR. FRANCIS: That's an ACDV? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: The fact that 200

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he had previously sent a letter to National City saying that it was not him, that didn't enter into this equation at all? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: Why was that? THE WITNESS: Because they wouldn't have pulled the original letter from, I think it was, December of '99. MR. FRANCIS: No; it was early 2000. No; it was 1999; excuse me. THE WITNESS: They wouldn't have to pull that; they would generate a new dispute. MR. FRANCIS: I'm sorry; it was January of 2000, the letter. You're saying, they wouldn't have what? THE WITNESS: They wouldn't have pulled it; they wouldn't know that that's what was previously disputed because it was never on his 201

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credit report; that's why. MR. FRANCIS: At the time he sent the National City letter, that wasn't being reported on his credit report? THE WITNESS: Right; so, there's no documentation or history that that was ever disputed before. There was nothing to dispute. MR. FRANCIS: Does this tell you which dispute investigator was

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involved with this? THE WITNESS: Not from here. MR. LUCKMAN: Did you say, "which"? MR. FRANCIS: Yes. THE WITNESS: Again, it's an operator number. MR. FRANCIS: Was the same operator investigating the tax liens, the First USA and National City, or were they all different people? THE WITNESS: They're all the same person. 202

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I want to be sure of that. It's all the same Tran, yes. MR. FRANCIS: We are still in priority processing; right? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: You're saying that the investigator who was investigating this in June of 2000 had no knowledge of the National City letter? THE WITNESS: Right. We know we received a dispute in April, but we never investigated it because it was never in his file; so, if she wanted to go back and see what we did, she would be able to look in the dispute from April, but wouldn't see anything from National City. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. Is there anything in the records which indicate whether [Consumer] sent any documentation in June or July of 2000 to Trans 203

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Union, other than these phone calls? THE WITNESS: No; it's all based on his telephone calls. MR. FRANCIS: So, the National City account gets verified? THE WITNESS: Right; they verify his name, address and that was verified as reported; so, that stayed on. Discover, they verified -the "040" is delete. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: They verified a different name, same address,

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

undetermined previous address and a different Social. MR. FRANCIS: Who made the determination; was that Discover saying to delete this? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Discover is saying, delete this; it's the wrong guy? THE WITNESS: That 040 code 204

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means to delete it. MR. FRANCIS: It's a code from Discover; in other words, it's not a Trans Union's employee's making the determination; it's a code that's based upon Discover's response? THE WITNESS: Right. Their response is, "040 Delete - Wrong Party." MR. FRANCIS: I've got you; okay. THE WITNESS: Then the last thing is, he is sent a corrected copy, showing what changes were made to the file. That was July of 2000. MR. FRANCIS: [Consumer] sent that to you? THE WITNESS: No; we sent that to him in response to his dispute; that finished his dispute. MR. LUCKMAN: "He is sent." MR. FRANCIS: I've got you. As a result of the Discover, 205

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First USA and National City, this was generated to him? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Let me show you this National City card. We are looking at the 7/7/2000 disclosure; right? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: He would have gotten this automatically as a result of the dispute? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: This indicates the date it was opened, 11/1989; right? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: His date of

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birth was 3/78, which means he would have been 11 at the time that account was opened. Isn't there anything at Trans Union that screens that? On its face, it appears to be an inaccurate account? 206

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THE WITNESS: No; there's not. MR. FRANCIS: So, it's possible or not possible, it does occur, that trade lines will be reported even if their own documentation and dates are inconsistent with the personal identification information by the plaintiff? MR. LUCKMAN: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: It's inconsistent if the date of birth is reported. I mean, not all files have that, but there's no tracking or correlation between the two dates, no. MR. FRANCIS: Along the same lines, the 6/7/2000 disclosure references the three tax liens; is that correct? THE WITNESS: Yes. 207

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MR. FRANCIS: Those tax liens indicate that they were entered in 6/95? THE WITNESS: Yes; one of them is 6/95; the other is '96. MR. FRANCIS: Based upon his date of birth, at the time, he was 17. There is nothing in Trans Union's system that recognizes that inconsistency? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: In June of 2000, in this instance, when the person who was handling the dispute investigations saw that there were, say, three or four trade lines that were inaccurate but the fourth was

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verified, is there any policy for them to investigate the dispute further, look into the consumer's history with a raised level of 208

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suspicion? MR. LUCKMAN: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: The dispute operator doesn't see the end result. They are processing whatever the consumer is disputing. The CDV operator, if they get the one response, they just go in and data entry that information. They're not actually looking at all the responses, all the disputes; they're only working on that one piece. MR. FRANCIS: I see. So, no one is seeing the whole big picture? MR. LUCKMAN: I object to the form. THE WITNESS: No; they process the piece as it comes in, the response as it comes in. MR. FRANCIS: I'm just asking you this because [Consumer] is 209

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bewildered as to, "How can I have a credit report that's issued with my date of birth showing? I couldn't, automatically, have had these accounts." I think, and correct me if I am wrong, what you're saying is, when the dispute is being processed, there are snapshots of the trade lines; the person is not seeing the whole picture? THE WITNESS: When the dispute is being processed, they see the whole picture; they can see the hole file, yes, but when the responses come back in, they're only addressing that response; they're not looking at the whole report. MR. FRANCIS: When the investigator can look at the whole picture, is it something that they would consider, that the date of birth is inconsistent with the dates

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that the accounts were opened; is 210

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that something that they would consider? THE WITNESS: If that was pointed out in the consumer's letter, they might focus in on that point and remove the accounts, based on that, but there are minors who have accounts; they are authorized users; their fathers get the cards and give it to them; so, there are times when a minor would have an account. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. Therefore, the dispute investigator, just so it's clear, could see the entire credit history? THE WITNESS: Oh, they're working off the entire credit file, yes. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. You mentioned that there are times when a minor has an account? A. Right. Q. Isn't the only time that a minor has an account if they're a user? 211

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A. They could be an authorized user, yes. Q. Would that be listed on the credit report? A. Yes. Q. An authorized user? A. Yes. Q. I thought you said before, correct me if I'm wrong, a long time ago, that the few instances in which a dispute investigator might correct the information is if the person is an authorized user, disputing the trade line? A. Right; we would delete that, rather than investigate that, but it stays on the report. Q. I don't understand. If it's deleted, how does it stay on the report? A. Well, it stays on the report until he would dispute it and then based on the dispute, we would delete it because he's only an authorized user. He doesn't have responsibility for the account. 212

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MR. FRANCIS: Off the record. (Discussion off the record). (At this point, a brief recess was taken, at the conclusion of which, the deposition continued as follows): BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. [Employee], before, you were describing instances where a minor's report can appear when there is an authorized user on an account. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. If a minor's account appears on a credit report, is that listed as an authorized user? A. If the creditor reported it that way, they could list it as maybe a co-maker. I'm trying to show that the correlation between the date of birth and the date opened on the account won't always match. Q. It's not an absolute? A. Right. MR. FRANCIS: Please mark this 213

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as [Employee]-8. (At this point, the court reporter marked the exhibit as [Employee]-8). MR. FRANCIS: What I have handed you is an exhibit that has been marked as [Employee]-8. Do you see the document before you that has been marked as [Employee]-8? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What is this document? THE WITNESS: It's a consumer disclosure, dated 9/10/2001. MR. FRANCIS: Prior to coming here today, did you review this document? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: I want to ask you some quick questions about the inquiry sections on the credit report; okay? Most of the testimony and my 214

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questions have focused around the reporting of trade lines, but I want

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to ask you about inquiries. This is [Consumer]'s consumer disclosure; is that correct? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Here are the trade lines listed. Then, starting on page two at the bottom, and going through page four, there appear to be three separate sections. These are the inquiry sections? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Would you tell me why they are broken up in three separate categories; what are they? THE WITNESS: The first sections is inquiries where they actually received the entire credit report. These are companies he has applied to for credit. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. 215

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THE WITNESS: The second section is promotional inquiries, companies where they only received demographic information. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. THE WITNESS: The third section is companies that are doing account reviews. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. What does that mean, an account review? THE WITNESS: They're going in and looking at his account that he has with them. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. How is it that an inquiry gets reported into Trans Union's system. MR. LUCKMAN: I'm not going to coach her, but this is an area of some specialty; so, I don't want her to guess at all. Unless you are virtually certain or completely certain of your 216

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responses, I don't want you to answer because the account reviews, the way these things are accomplished, it's a special area out of Chicago; so, if you have some knowledge, great.

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I'm not going to instruct you not to answer, but unless you really know, don't answer it. MR. FRANCIS: That's fine if you don't know. I'm probably going to want somebody who can talk about that, but let me find out what you do know. How is it that an inquiry gets on someone's credit report? THE WITNESS: On the first section, these are inquiries that he applied to. They input his information and select the credit report and as soon as they do that, the inquiry is posted to his file. MR. FRANCIS: In order to get his credit file, what do they have to do to get his credit file? 217

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THE WITNESS: Well, there are a subscriber to Trans Union; so, they have access to the system and they have to input his identifying information. MR. FRANCIS: Do they have to do anything, other than that, to request a copy of his credit report; do they have to certify anything? THE WITNESS: That's done at the very beginning, based on their membership with Trans Union. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; so, for example, looking at one of these subscribers, Capital One appears 1/30/2001. Do you see that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Capital One obviously is a subscriber of Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Does this seem to indicate that on 1/30/2001, 218

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Capital One requested and was given information and was given information on [Consumer] by Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: You mentioned before there was some type of certification that they do in the beginning of the relationship, the

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contract? THE WITNESS: As they become a member of Trans Union, they have to demonstrate how they're going to use that information; they have to show a permissible purpose. MR. FRANCIS: So, they will say, "We may want to the access credit files for --" these reasons; correct? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Each and every time, they don't have to do that; right? THE WITNESS: No; once it's done, it's done. 219

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MR. FRANCIS: Under, "Subscriber Name," it says, "TU Consumer Disclosure." Do you see that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: What does that mean? THE WITNESS: That's every time consumer relations pulled it at his request or processed a dispute. MR. FRANCIS: Let me ask you this. Does "Consumer Disclosure" indicate whether or not it's initiated by [Consumer] or it's initiated by Trans Union? THE WITNESS: Well, the report is issued by Trans Union, but it's in response to a request from him. MR. FRANCIS: Are there ever any times where a consumer disclosure would appear there based upon something that Trans Union did 220

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internally; in other words, if it were an internal disclosure, would it appear there? THE WITNESS: We would still post an inquiry, right, every time we would pull the report. MR. FRANCIS: For example, if we were looking at the history of his communications with Trans Union, and a couple of times you made a comment that there was what appeared

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to be an internal disclosure -- do you remember that? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: -- that type of internal disclosure would show up? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: Is that an automated process within Trans Union; if someone goes into the system, it just shows up there or does someone have to make a record that they're doing that? THE WITNESS: Once you pull 221

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it, that is the record; that inquiry is the record. MR. FRANCIS: So, it is automatic? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: "Consumer Disclosure" refers to the type of consumer disclosure that we have been talking about all along; right? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. FRANCIS: If Trans Union sent him a letter, it wouldn't be called a consumer disclosure; right? THE WITNESS: Correct. MR. FRANCIS: How would that appear? I know earlier in the deposition -THE WITNESS: You would only see that in the history search. MR. FRANCIS: You wouldn't see it on the credit report? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: So, if it says, 222

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"Consumer Disclosure," it means that Trans Union sent him a copy of his credit report or consumer disclosure? THE WITNESS: Or processed something in response to his request. MR. FRANCIS: What are the instances in which they would process something, but something wouldn't be sent to the consumer? THE WITNESS: You would have the internal disclosure; you would have the dispute that you're working on; then he would get a corrected copy, but every time we touch his

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

file, we have to post an inquiry. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. Let's go down to the third section of the credit report. There is a series of four inquiries that appear, 11/2000, 02/2001 04/2001 and 07/2001. Can you gauge what they are, what is going on there? THE WITNESS: They are just 223

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inquiries from National City Bank. MR. FRANCIS: Is there anything on the credit report which indicates why they were pulling his credit report? THE WITNESS: No, other than the section that they are in. MR. FRANCIS: The fact that it appears direct underwriting, does that mean anything to you? THE WITNESS: No. MR. FRANCIS: In this case, we know that [Consumer] didn't have an account with National City Bank. Is there anything that Trans Union does or can do to prevent unauthorized access of his credit files to credit card companies, such as National City? MR. LUCKMAN: I'm going to object to the question. THE WITNESS: Okay; based on -- I don't know the information 224

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they would actually -- what information they would need to get in and do an account review; I don't know how they would prevent it; so, I guess I can't answer that. MR. FRANCIS: What I'm asking is, at some point, the National City account came off his Trans Union file; Trans Union stopped reporting it before this time period, before 11/4/2000; okay? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. FRANCIS: My question is, the fact that Trans Union stopped reporting the account about him, would that in any way impede or impair National City's ability to

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continue to gain his credit report? MR. LUCKMAN: That's what she just said that she didn't know. THE WITNESS: I don't know what they need in order to get that or what they get when they're doing that. 225

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MR. FRANCIS: So, you just don't know? THE WITNESS: I don't know. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; that's fine. BY MR. FRANCIS: Q. Have there been any changes in the policies and procedures for investigating consumer credit disputes within the last five years? A. The policies might have changed in the last five years. I'm sure they did; so, yes. Q. Would those be reflected in the memos that you were talking about earlier? A. Yes, and that manual that I think is revised as of 2/99. Q. How about since 2/99; do you know of any changes? A. If they were, they were handouts and memos. Q. Do you know, off the top of your head, of any changes that have been made with regard to how Trans Union investigates consumer 226

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credit disputes? A. No; the investigation would stay the same. The verification -- the dispute form goes out and comes back. MR. FRANCIS: Okay; I have no further questions. Thank you. I would just like to put on the record, while we are still here, that originally, obviously, this was a deposition for [Consumer], followed by Johnson. It is almost 5 o'clock. I think I have made our position clear that as long as [Employee] will be kind enough to return in the next week and you will make yourself available, I will carve out time in my schedule.

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MR. LUCKMAN: We will cooperate and agree to produce [Employee] as soon as possible. You're saying within the next 227

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week. I can't tell you exactly that that will happen. We will do whatever we can to produce her in the very near future. We have already agreed to give you an extension to respond to summary judgment. MR. FRANCIS: Okay. MR. LUCKMAN: If you are looking to have it a week from today, whatever that would be -MR. FRANCIS: How about within two weeks. MR. LUCKMAN: I'm sure we can do that. Why don't we try to get a schedule together today? MR. FRANCIS: The main thing is, obviously, I want to be able to ask her questions with respect to Johnson, about her affidavit and the questions in the case. We know each other; so, as 228

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long as -MR. LUCKMAN: You are lucky to have the affidavit; you should thank me. MR. MAILMAN: Why don't you just give us two weeks after the deposition in order to respond to the motion? MR. LUCKMAN: I've got a trial date coming up. MR. FRANCIS: I don't know how Judge Brody is going to feel about that. She is going to want something documented. MR. LUCKMAN: What is the date today? I'm at a complete. MR. FRANCIS: Today is the 9th. MR. LUCKMAN: Fine. Off the record. (Discussion off the record).

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MR. FRANCIS: 229

Thank you,

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[Employee]. - - (Deposition concluded at 4:55). - - -

230 C E R T I F I C A T I O N

I, Lyn Rubenstein, a Registered Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that the proceedings, evidence, and objections upon the deposition of [EMPLOYEE] are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes, taken by me upon the foregoing matter on October 9, 2001, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same.

LYN RUBENSTEIN Registered Professional Reporter

(THE FOREGOING CERTIFICATION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY REPRODUCTION OF THE SAME BY ANY MEANS, UNLESS UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL AND/OR SUPERVISION OF THE CERTIFYING REPORTER).

231 I hereby acknowledge that I have read the foregoing transcript of my deposition, given on October 9, 2001 and that it is a true, correct, and complete transcript of the answers given to the questions propounded to the best of my recollection and belief, except for the corrections, if any, noted on the below Errata Sheet.

[EMPLOYEE]