DID JESUS PRE-EXIST?

(Exposing the Polytheism of Some Non Trinitarians)

By Jeffrey D. Dean, Sr. October 13, 2011 The question "did Jesus pre-exist" simply poses the question, "did Jesus exist WITH the FATHER in heaven BEFORE he was born a man on the earth. It seems very straight forward and easily answered in the scriptures, especially if you are talking to a trinitarian, such a question would be just another stupid question to them, for they believe that Jesus IS the third person of the Father (God) and therefore MUST have lived in heaven before he was born on earth. Yet, when you step into the world of the non trinitarian Christian, (so called- I doubt you could really call a non-trinitarian a Christian in light of the unanimous acceptance among Christians of the trinity as a basic tenet of their faith since the religion's very inception), in that world of the non trinitarian "Christian" the question of the pre-existence of Jesus is not so stupid. The debate concerning this rages on among non trinitarians for centuries! There are non trinitarians who believe that Jesus preexisted, and not only that, they believe he was ALSO a God! Those who believe that Jesus is A God are even more polytheistic in their leanings than are the trinitarian. The trinitarian (who believes in three PERSONS of God contained in ONE God) are fanatical MONOTHEISTS compare to those non trinitarians who believe in the preexistence of Jesus (and who also believe Jesus is A God but not THE God! The pre-existence of Jesus (that Jesus existed in Heaven with the father before his birth on earth) should not even BE a question among non-trinitarians! There shouldn't BE a debate at all, in my humble opinion. If you are not a trinitarian (belief that Jesus is and WAS God from the beginning) there should be no question that Jesus did NOT exist until he was born to Mary and Joseph in a manger in Bethlehem because you have said that Jesus is a MAN and men do not exist until they are conceived and born (this should be common sense). If you do not believe in the deity of Christ (trinitarianism) then you are saying that he is a MAN, in which case, being that he was only a man he could NOT have existed before he was born. To ask if he pre-existed, (when you say he's just a man) is a dichotomy and a paradoxical question akin to "which came first the chicken or the egg?" I personally cannot see how some non trinitarians who claim a belief in the pre-existence of Jesus and at the same time say he was A God, can even call themselves a monotheist! I have spoken to many such non trinitarians (who believe Jesus pre-existed and that when the scripture says the Word was God it is a mistranslation and should say the Word was A God). When you scrutinize their beliefs with scripture it becomes painfully obvious they are polytheistic. I spoke to one recently who was not even aware that the Tanach says there is ONLY one God in the universe and all other Gods are "dead." This is a person who actually speaks of and quotes the Tanach on a regular basis. How anyone can read the Tanach (Old Testament) and come away with the idea that there are MANY GODS in the universe is a

complete mystery to me, yet some do say this (while claiming to be monotheists at the same time). They'd have a problem convincing most Hebrews of this using the Tanach, that's for sure. That there is only ONE true God is not even disputed by the trinitarians themselves (who believe in three Gods in one). It would never enter into the mind of a trinitarian to say that there is more than one GOD (yet I have spoken to plenty of non trinitarians who believe in the pre-existence of Christ and they say just that). That is why I said that compared to the non trinitarian who believes in pre-existence the trinitarian is a fanatical mono theist! NOTE: the trinitarian is unaware that he is actually a polytheist by supporting the notion that there are three PERSONS who make up a "Godhead." They are deceived into thinking this means they preach ONE TRUE GOD (in three persons). They are definitely polytheists but at least they limit their polytheism to THREE Gods (in one God). Those who deny the trinity but then say Christ pre-existed have opened the door to UNLIMITED GODS. Furthermore, there are some who deny the trinity and still teach that Christ pre-existed and they are UNWITINGLY making themselves polytheists, for if Christ pre-existed then he's not a man (for there is no evidence in Scripture for the pre-existence of man). If they believe in pre-existence of Christ before he was born to Mary and Joseph they must either believe that Christ was A God (and if not the trinity then he's another God, which is why they make themselves polytheists). Some say he was an "angel" prior to his birth but they have no scriptural evidence that shows an angel can become a man. In fact, angels are already physical beings, according to scripture, how can an angel who already possesses his OWN physical body shed that body and become a man? There's only one way and that is reincarnation and or "the eternal soul of man" concept (which is also not supported in Scripture). To sum up this argument, therefore, any person who believes in the pre-existence of Christ is either a trinitarian, a polytheist (by making Christ "another" God), or they are teaching that man's soul is "eternal." Those who teach that Christ pre-existed as an angel are unwittingly supporting reincarnation (because angels have bodies already, they ate and drank with people, Jacob wrestled with an angel). For an angel to become a man (Christ) he would have to shed his former physical body and take on ANOTHER physical body (that is reincarnation in a nut shell). Those who teach pre-existence of man are also supporting the notion that man's soul is an "eternal spirit" and that your mind and consciousness exist apart from your physical body. (This is not supported in scripture either). Christ's pre-existence as God (Creator) is not supported in scripture. He was a man born to Mary and Joseph. The non-trinitarians claim to believe this but then say he "preexisted" and the only way this is possible is if: 1. Christ was ANOTHER God (which makes them polytheistic). 2. Christ was an angel before he was born (which makes them reincarnation teachers). 3. Christ's SOUL existed with God before he was born (and since they are non trinitarian

claiming that Christ was a MAN) they are saying that a man's soul (Christ's) is eternal. If Christ was a man and his soul pre-existed with God we have no choice but to accept the Mormon teaching that MAN HIMSELF pre-exists with God. (Man's soul having consciousness before his mind is even created in the womb). Either Christ was GOD HIMSELF (trinity) before he was born, or he was ANOTHER GOD (polytheism), or he was an ANGEL (reincarnation), or he was a MAN (in which case, being that he was a man and his soul pre-existed with God, therefore ALL MEN must pre-exist with God before they are born). Whether you are teaching trinity, Christ is "another God" who pre-existed, Christ was an angel before he was born, or Christ (a man) pre-existed you cannot support the preexistence of Christ in SCRIPTURE!

TRUE BELIEVERS FOLLOW THE LIVING GOD (All other God's are "dead" Gods and those who follow them are "dead to God")
There are sects who call themselves Christian both trinitarian and non trinitarian who believe in more than one God (Mormons come to mind immediately) Mormons believe that Jesus is "another" God and that we too will be "another" God some day but there are others as well. You don't find too many sects within Judaism that are polytheistic, however. This is because the God of the Old Testament, YHWH, made it quite clear to the Hebrews (through diasporas, plagues, miracles of so many kinds I cannot mention them here) that there are no other Gods but him, that he is the "living God" a term that by it's very meaning pronounces ALL OTHER GODS DEAD. I submit to you now that a DEAD GOD is no God at all (and God says he is the only living God and all others are dead). Why would anyone worship a "dead" God? It makes no sense, yet some who are not trinitarians (but also believe in pre-existence of Christ) insist that John 1: 1 is a mistranslation and that when it says "and the Word was God" it should have said "and the Word was A God." (If you were to read my essay on John 1 you would know that I don't believe that verse is even talking about Jesus but is talking about the Holy Spirit who is the WORD of God.) I need to clarify something. The Holy Spirit IS God the Father. (They are not two separate persons). The Holy Spirit is God's spirit (which IS eternal and God's soul does pre-exist even the universe itself) that is why he's the LIVING God. The universe and all the life in it comes FROM God who has always existed and always will. He was here BEFORE the universe, he created the universe, and long after the universe disappears God will be alive and remain. He's the LIVING GOD. Now, if they truly believe that Jesus is a God and he was alive and living in Heaven BEFORE he came to the earth (from the very beginning they say) but they say he's not THE God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (YHWH) they are calling YHWH a liar when he said "I am THE living God." I suppose they think that is a mistranslation too and YHWH

actually said "I am ONE OF the living Gods." Also, they must think that the Christ and the Apostles were WRONG to say we serve the "living God," (or perhaps they say that is a mistranslation as well). Aren't we lucky to have them to keep us straight on all of these errors in Scripture. For (if Jesus were a God) the only way an Apostle (who lived after the birth of Christ) could say "we serve the LIVING GOD" (and not be meaning Christ) would be for that Apostle to say that Jesus is DEAD and if the Apostle were talking about Jesus when he said "we serve the living God," trinity would be TRUE. Yet if Jesus is also a living God (but not the Creator) now why wouldnt the Apostles say we serve BOTH of the living Gods? Don't you see that no Apostle is going to say "we serve the LIVING God" and quantify God in such a manner if Jesus were also a God and if Jesus were ALSO alive? The term "living God" would have no meaning whatsoever! Again, I suppose that was a mistranslation (according to them) and what the Apostle actually said was "we serve one (or BOTH) of the living Gods." God is the LIVING God of the Old AND the New Testaments. In the Hebrew it's the word CHAY and in the Greek it's the word ZAO. This title "the living God" is unique to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and more than implies the other God's are NOT living! Yet, God says so outrightly to his prophet Jeremiah (we will get to that Scripture). God tells Jeremiah that he alone is the living God and all other Gods are not living and will eventually "perish" from the Earth. If Jesus were a God during the times of the Old Testament he was either YHWH God (trinity) or he was NOT ALIVE because during that time they made it clear that there was only one LIVING God and no scripture in the Tanach ever acknowledges the possibility of another living God. Conversely if he was ALIVE during the times of the Old Testament (but he is not YHWH) he therefore cannot be a God for only YHWH God is the "living" God. During the New Testament Jesus was either YHWH God (trinity) or he was no God at all for Yeshua Messiah and the Apostles still referred to YHWH as "the living God." Again, there are those among non-trinitarians who teach that Jesus existed as an angel before he was born, some even saying hes Michael but that is so unsubstantiated in scripture I wont even answer it. If you believe he's an angel, I can prove to you that you are a teacher of reincarnation because angels are PHYSICAL BEINGS with BODIES OF THEIR OWN! An angel coming to earth and being born inside a woman's womb would have to shed his first body (die) then be reborn in another physical body. That is reincarnation! Here are the scriptures in the New Testament which call God the "living" God.

Matthew 16:16 "the Christ, the Son of the living God" Matthew 26:63 "I adjure you by the living God" John 6:57 "as the living Father has sent me"

John 6: 69 "that Christ, the Son of the living God" Acts 14:15 "from these vanities unto the living God" Romans 9: 26 "be called the children of the living God" 2 Corinthians 3: 3 "but with the Spirit of the living God:" 2 Corinthians 6:16 "for you are the temple of the living God" 1 Thessalonians 1: 9 "delivered from idols to serve the living and true God" 1 Timothy 3:15 "which is the church of the living God" 1 Timothy 4:10 "because we trust in the living God" 1 Timothy 6: 17 "uncertain riches, but in the living God" Hebrews 3:12 "in departing from the living God" Hebrews 9: 14 "dead works to serve the living God" Hebrews 10: 31 "to fall into the hands of the living God" Hebrews 12: 22 "and unto the city of the living God" Revelation 7: 2 "seal of the living God"
That's just the New Testament, all written AFTER the birth of Christ! They are STILL calling God "the living God." The only conclusions we can draw from this is either Christ is the LIVING God,(trinity) he's not a God at all, or if he's A God, he's a dead God since only YHWH is the living God, or Christ was an angel first (reincarnation) or Christ, a MAN has an eternal soul that existed with God BEFORE his body was born from a womb (in which case all men are pre-existent, in which case you should be a Mormon). The issue really IS that black and white because of the very nature of the term "living God." Trinitarians the world over recognize that ONLY YHWH, The Father in Heaven, is the LIVING GOD, which makes them MORE of a mono theist than those who say Christ is not God but is A God and pre-existed from the beginning! Those who teach such things call any prophet, teacher, or Apostle who ever said "living" God either a liar or an idiot! What good is saying "he's the LIVING GOD" if there are OTHER GODS WHO ARE ALIVE? There are many scriptures in the Tanach (Old Testament) that say "living God." We only need to look at what Jeremiah said on the subject though, for Jeremiah states emphatically that there is only one true LIVING God and all others are not alive and can do neither good nor evil and he says that all "gods" who are NOT the creator shall be dealt with (shall all perish) and it shall be revealed that they are vanity.

Jeremiah 10: 1- 15 "1 Hear the word of which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the peole are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. 6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou are great and thy name is great in might. 7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms there is none like unto thee. 8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. 9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. 10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens. 12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish."
One conclusion is inescapable from reading the above texts. If Jesus is a God (but not the creator) he will NOT LAST LONG ON EARTH because God states emphatically here that no god ON THE EARTH or UNDER THE HEAVENS will survive (if they are not the God who CREATED the earth). All gods ON EARTH who are NOT the creator (according to Jeremiah) will be eliminated! If Jesus is A God, but not the creator, when he tries to set up his KINGDOM on EARTH he is going to be eventually eliminated (unless Jeremiah is a LIAR and a FALSE PROPHET). Those who teach that Jesus is A God (but not the creator) have made Jeremiah a false

prophet, or they have doomed Jesus to PERISH on the earth. It's interesting to note that these texts in Jeremiah also put worshipping JESUS in the same category as worshipping a graven image! How so? Jeremiah does not even acknowledge the possibility of a MAN who is ALSO GOD here! He states that ALL worshipping of ANY GOD who is NOT THE CREATOR is worshipping a "graven image." Since the Creator is NOT A MAN therefore, worshipping a MAN/GOD is tantamount to worshipping a graven image because you are worshipping the creature rather than the creator!

DOES LIVING GOD SIMPLY MEAN GOD OF THE LIVING?

I examined this possibility thoroughly and rejected it based upon scripture. I looked up every scripture that says living in the Bible. If you make the case that living God simply means God of the living you are making a HUGE leap and are creating a serious CONUNDRUM (especially if you believe that there is consciousness in the grave) which by the way most who believe in the pre-existence of Christ also believe in the eternal soul of man and that we are conscious in the grave, (that is they believe only our body dies but our mind lives on). If they believe that there is consciousness when you are dead and in the grave and they believe living God means God of the living, the living God whom we serve is no longer THEIR GOD while they are in the grave and yet conscious for Christ stated flatly that God is only the God of the living and is NOT the God of the DEAD! (Matthew 22:32 Luke 20:38). Now, heres another dichotomy. Christ says that YHWH the Father is God of the living not of the dead and in Romans we are told that Christ is Lord of BOTH the living AND the dead.

Romans 14: 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and the living
If "living God" means "God of the living" and Christ is God Incarnate, according to this scripture Christ cannot be the God of the living ONLY if hes NOW the Lord of both the living and the dead. Furthermore, if the LIVING Father is God of the living (and not of the dead) then how can Christ be the living God (seeing that he is Lord of both the living AND the dead)? Since God is the same, yesterday, today and forever and Christ himself said the living God is NOT the God of the dead, Paul must have been wrong on this point (if Christ is the living God) the only other choice is that Christ is NOT the living God but is ANOTHER God who has taken on the living God's role as "God of the living" PLUS he's done what the living God could or would not do by becoming the God of the dead as well as the LIVING! Do you see how preposterous it all is? This one scripture in Romans disproves the Trinity entirely, but it also proves that Lord does not mean God. That is where we non trinitarians get the phrase Jesus is Lord but he is not God. This is just one Scripture that bears this out. For if Lord means God and if Christ is God, then Paul has just stated here that God, after the death and the resurrection of Christ has become BOTH

the God of the living AND of the dead (and that shoots the whole notion of the never changing God). If Christ is the living God, then he has somehow changed his jurisdiction! Yet why then did Paul and the other Apostles continue to say that the living God is "God of the living not of the dead? (especially if living God means God of the living?). With the above Scripture and just a little bit of logic we prove several other things. We prove that living God and God of the living cannot be the same title, for if they were then either there are grave errors in scripture (an Apostle saying that Christ who is the living God is the God of BOTH the living and the dead when all the other testimony, including the testimony of Christ himself says he's only the God of the living and NOT the dead). If God has now changed his mind and become the God of both the living and the dead then all the prophets who said "God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow" were seriously in error. If you can't accept that Paul, or the Prophets made such errors, then you have no choice but to accept that Christ is DIFFERENT than the creator for the Creator is ONLY the God of the living and Christ is LORD of BOTH the living and the dead. Finally, would Christ (who was supposedly the living God incarnate) state that God is not the God of the dead but of the living if he KNEW that was about to change? What was his point in incorporating this truth into his message if it was not going to hold for very long? We also prove that if Christ is A God (but not the creator God) then he now has MORE jurisdiction than the Father because the Father is ONLY the God of the living and in Romans we learn that Jesus is God of BOTH the living and the dead (if so be that Jesus is A God but not the living God Creator)! That is because even if LORD does NOT mean God, if Jesus is A God and he is made "Lord" over the living AND the dead, that makes him LORD of the living (but not God of the living) and makes him "Lord (and God) of the dead." If Jesus IS the 'living God" (as trinitarians state) his GODHEAD is GREATER than the living God's power for Jesus is God of BOTH the LIVING and the DEAD, while creator is only God of the LIVING! If Jesus is "another God" he's a greater God than the Creator for the Creator is only Lord and God of the living, but Jesus is Lord of the living and also is LORD and GOD of the dead! There's NO ESCAPING THIS CONCLUSION! This would make Jesus a GREATER GOD than the God of Heaven! This one verse in Romans is a complete contradiction to the trinitarian that can NEVER be explained, EVER, for they teach Jesus is the LIVING God and the rest of the scriptures say that the living God is NOT the God of the dead. To the non trinitarian who believes in the pre-existence of Christ (and that he is another God) they cannot explain how Christ could ALSO be the God of the living (for it says hes Lord of BOTH). If Christ is NOT the living God, he cannot be Lord of both the living and the dead and if he is A God hes only the God of the DEAD (for the living God is God of the living). Yet

Paul says he's LORD (and as a God that would make him God of) the living AND the dead! Seeing that Christ himself said that the Father God is God of the living and not the dead we show once and for all that there is NO CONSCIOUSNESS in the grave. This is because if those who die retain their consciousness and they served the God of the living their whole lives, now they are dead and their God has deserted them because he is ONLY the God of the living. They would be creatures most miserable in the grave, having consciousness of losing their God simply because they are dead. How sad is that and how cruel could a God be to love his children and faithful servants as long as they live, only to desert them when they die!

BELIEVERS ARE SLEEPING THEY ARE NOT DEAD

I can hear the arguments flowing now. God is still the God of them that die because they dont REALLY die they are only asleep. Now, the scripture does call them that die in Christ them that are asleep. From this we could infer they arent really dead which means they are still alive and God of the living is STILL their God! Fair enough, but do people who are sleeping have any conscious thought of what is going on in the world around them? Those who teach the pre-existence of Christ notoriously also teach the eternal soul of man concept. They believe NO ONE dies (spiritually). They believe that when any human being dies only their body dies and their spirit (mind) lives on. If this were so then Christ was wrong in saying God is the God of the living and not the dead. If no one really dies, death has NO REAL MEANING in scripture. Why would Christ say God is not the God of the dead if no one really dies? It's pointless. The only thing we could conclude is that Christ was saying God is not the God of those who are dead physically! This being true, then when someone sleeps in Christ the God of the living (YHWH) is NO LONGER THEIR GOD for God is the God of the living and not the dead, and since Yeshua is Lord of the both the living and the dead (and some say he's A God) therefore, the living God is your God until your body dies, then Yeshua takes over. This would make him the God of the DEAD ONLY would it not? Being that the office of "God of the living" belongs to the Creator and even the Trinitarians say there is a difference in the offices of Christ and the Father! This being said, while you are yet alive, Christ is your Lord only (according to Paul in Romans) however, when you die Christ (being a God according to some) now becomes your God. The Creator ceases to be your God because he is the God of the living ONLY! You would think this would be spelled out more clearly, if this were the case. Yet, pre-existence supporters insist on saying that none of us really die, which means they are alive even when their body is dead and therefore God (the God of the living) is STILL their God. In which case God of the living and not of the dead has NO MEANING WHATSOEVER and Christ never should have said it! Whether we are alive

or dead physically, our SOUL is alive somewhere (according to them that teach the eternal soul of man and that consciousness continues on in the grave). Since we do not really die when our body dies, therefore God, the God of the living, is our God in physical death as well. If the eternal soul of man is true then Christ was just babbling here for ALL remain ALIVE after their body dies and God is God of ALL of us whether we be physically dead OR alive! When you take the doctrine of pre-existence of Christ and couple it with the doctrine of the eternal soul of man very little in scripture makes sense any more (especially if you say that Jesus was A God but not the Creator God). The lines of reason then get so blurred that you cant make heads nor tails of any Scripture and the Bible becomes so full of CONTRADICTIONS you cant even read it anymore! Your head would spin trying to understand most of the writings of the Apostles and half of what the PROPHETS said! To RECAP: This is just TWO examples of the contradictions created by those who teach the pre-existence of Christ without making him Creator God and OR teach the eternal soul of man concept. If any of these things be so then Christ made NO SENSE saying God is the God of the living and NOT of the dead. If theres an eternal soul of man no one really DIES in which case God is still the GOD of the PHYSICALLY dead (because they are still ALIVE spiritually). If God ceases to be your God when you physically die (yet your soul is still alive) and if Christ (the LORD of both the living and the dead) is ALSO a God, then Christ becomes your God when you physically die and the Creator ceases to be your God.

GOD IS ONLY GOD OF THE SPIRITUALLY ALIVE

There is one more aspect created by this cesspool of illogic and failed reasoning we must wade through before we can even GET to the scriptures they use to support the preexistence of Christ, and I am sorry for this but it is necessary to get our heads straight before we can tackle the other Scriptures. Some might say that Im making mountains out of molehills here. They might point out that there is a such thing as Spiritual Death and that is what is meant when Christ says God is the God of the living and not of the dead. In other words, Christ was saying that if you are alive to God you are Spiritually Alive and if you are dead to God you are Spiritually Dead. (The second death as it is called in Revelation). Furthermore, since Christ offers us "eternal life" and has said we would "never die" then when Christ said "God is God of the living and not of the dead" simply means that he's only the God of those who have eternal life through Christ (for he said in one place that if you do not "eat of his flesh and drink of his blood you have no life in you.") This truly makes sense, except God is the God of ALL according to numerous places in scripture (whether they serve him or not). If God is God of ALL then Christ saying "God is not the God of the dead," makes no sense at all.... UNLESS.... the dead have NO CONSCIOUSNESS in the grave, therefore they cannot worship nor serve ANY GOD and that is why God is not the God of the dead! When you think about it hard enough this is the ONLY interpretation that makes any sense at all and CURES all the contradictions I've pointed out, save for the Romans scripture where it says Christ is

Lord of both the living and the dead and THAT contradiction is cured by understanding that Lord does NOT mean God, and that Christ is NOT GOD, niether is he A God. Once you accept the fundamental truths that: 1. There is no consciousness in the grave, 2. Christ is Lord of both the living and the dead but he is not GOD (or a God), 3. The dead need not a God for they have no consciousness and can neither worship nor serve a God ALL contradictions are cured and the Scriptures then have PERFECT harmony! I often have taught people who say the Bible is full of contradictions that there are no contradictions in Scripture, the only contradiction you might find are in your misinterpretation and lack of understanding.

SOME TEACH THAT ALL HAVE ETERNITY THEY JUST SPEND IT IN A DIFFERENT PLACE
If someone insists upon believing in the eternal soul of man and that mans soul continues on after death then, AGAIN, God is God of the living and not of the dead still makes no sense. What about the human who is spiritually dead? Those who teach the eternal soul of man say that person remains alive spiritually after they die (for they clearly teach that ALL humans have souls and they all go SOMEWHERE when their body dies). Spiritual death, therefore has very little meaning as well because the eternal soul of man never dies (being eternal) and it just goes to a bad place. In which case, eternal life has little meaning because the spirtually alive and the spiritually dead are in the same state of being ALIVE eternally (their soul is still alive and conscious) just one goes to a good place for eternity and the other goes to a bad place for eternity. Their state of existence doesnt change, they are simply in different places! To be fair, many teach that your soul does indeed cease to exist or die when you undergo the second death (spiritual death). They teach you simply no longer are conscious. Yet, what boggles the mind is that if mans soul EVER ceases to exist it DISPROVES THE NOTION of the eternal soul of man completely. I get dizzy when I talk to someone who believes in the eternal soul of man (that man continues on spiritually after his body dies) but then they turn right around and say that at some point God KILLS the souls of some of them (second death)! Why does this boggle my mind and what has this even got to do with the pre-existence of Christ? If you believe that EVERY human beings soul lives on after they die then you believe that every humans soul is eternal which would mean that soul MUST have existed prior to you being born into a physical body. (Which is precisely what Mormons teach as truth). This being the case, then of COURSE Christ pre-existed being that ALL SOULS pre-exist. What then is the point of even SAYING or FOCUSING on Christs preexistence and constantly pointing it out? Which is precisely what those who teach preexistence insist upon doing. It makes no sense! Now, if you say that ONLY Christ pre-existed and mens souls are created when they are born into a physical body (and yet you still believe that soul lives on after the body dies) you are admitting first that Christ is NOT a man (which would make him either God

Himself, Another God, or an Angel). You are saying that mans soul is not ETERNAL until it is created at conception, but Christ's soul DID pre-exist (which means he's not a man at all). So either Christ was a man and if he pre-existed then ALL men pre-exist, or Christ was not a man which means he's either an Angel (reincarnation) or he's God Himself (trinity) or he's "another God," (polytheism).

IF ALL MEN'S SOULS ARE ETERNAL CHRIST MADE EMPTY PROMISES

Christ says you don't have eternal life until you believe upon him! Eternal life, therefore loses all its meaning (if all men's souls are eternal). All men are born eternal according to you. Well, those who teach this have a ready answer. Christ was talking SPIRITUAL ETERNAL LIFE. They say that Christ was offering us eternal life and that we would avoid spiritual death (the second death) if we believe upon him. Yet, it makes no sense to make mans soul eternal then, after they die physically keep them alive and conscious in spirit only to condemn them eventually and make them suffer a second death whereby they cease to exist. Why keep their soul alive after they die physically. Furthermore why talk about a "resurrection" of the dead at all if our consciousness lives on after we die physically? If man's soul is eternal when he is conceived, why did not Christ say "he who does not believe upon me will lose his eternal life?" Instead Christ promises to GIVE us ETERNAL LIFE, something the pre-existence and "eternal soul of man" people say we ALREADY HAVE (an eternal soul that does not die when our body does). Christ's promise to give us eternal life was an empty one if we already possess it! Why not just make mans soul MORTAL from the very beginning of his conception and then OFFER eternal soul to those who believe upon Christ? Why put the non believer through the motion of being BORN with an eternal soul that lives ON in conscious thought after his body dies, only to KILL that soul (in the SECOND or SPIRITUAL death). That is extremely CRUEL dont you think? To make man an eternal soul (one that lives apart from his body) then not even ACKNOWLEDGE HE HAS IT and say "if you believe on me I'll give you an eternal soul," THEN KILL that soul in the end because he wouldnt believe? Would it not be less cruel to make man a MORTAL SOUL from the start then promise an eternal soul to them that believe? No matter HOW you slice it, the scriptures make no sense either way (if you believe in man's consciousness after the grave). Either man has an ETERNAL SOUL and his mind lives on after his body dies (in which case, theres no reason to RAISE HIS SOUL UP AT ALL being that his SOUL is alive after his body dies). If man does NOT have an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies its VERY CRUEL to raise him up from the dead ONLY TO SENTENCE HIM TO GO BACK TO ETERNAL SLUMBER. Why not just LEAVE him in the unconscious state hes in after he dies? Ive had Jehovas witnesses say that is what they believe happens, (that men who don't believe simply just slip into unconsciousness and never return) yet they are ignoring the scriptures that say that some are raised to eternal life and some are raised to be judged, condemned and

suffer the second death! Yet, there is a teaching that can CURE all of these illogics, it is contained clearly in the Scriptures of both the New and the Old Testaments (and this teaching lies at the very heart of the pre-existence of Christ debate).

THAT WHICH IS FLESH IS FLESH AND THAT WHICH IS SPIRIT IS SPIRIT

The life that we have (our living spirit) has NO conscious thought of its own. We know from science and biology that our thoughts are created and contained within the GREY MATTER of our brains (which is FLESH). The thoughts, experiences, memories of a man exist ONLY within this GREY MATTER and within the firing neurons of our BRAINS. Thus, the creatures SOUL, either human or animal (that which makes the creature who he is) is contained within the BRAIN and is NOT ATTACHED in any way to the spirit or life. The spirit of a living creature gives LIFE to his soul as long as his brain is ACTIVE. When the creatures brain shuts down (physical death), his spirit (which has no consciousness or thought) returns from whence it came (returns to God). The SPIRIT of a man has no thought, consciousness or reasoning of itself! Is their SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE of this? TONS! We will look at only a few because this essay is already too long!

Genesis 2:7 and the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul.
This demonstrates the traditional Old Testament approach to the subject. God breathes the spirit of life in a man and he becomes a living soul. The spirit of life of a man (or any living creature for that matter comes from God therefore). I submit, if that spirit or soul has conscious thought then it can be said of all men that they came down from heaven from God and this is not exclusive to Christ and Christ is not distinctive in this respect (as most assert). Man, therefore is God come down to earth in fleshly form (because the spirit of life came from God and that spirit has consciousness and thought). Clearly there can BE no consciousness or thought in this spirit which God breathed into Adams nostrils (or Adam would be God in the flesh). The logic of this is inescapable!

Genesis 12: 13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Here Abraham fears a certain king will kill him to take his wife from him so he asks his wife to pretend to be his sister. Abraham knew that if he should die his SOUL also would die. This is traditional Abramic approach. He understood the principle that our

LIFE comes from God and gives quickening to our soul and when our life leaves our body (goes back to God) our soul DIES (conscious thought, memory etc.)

Exodus 12: 15 Seven days shall you eat unleavened bread; even the first day you shall put away leaven out of your houses; for whosoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
This was a command that carried with it the DEATH PENALTY and it was enforced as such by ancient Israel. Its the same as saying cut off their head but it says cut off their soul because Israelites knew that when a mans body dies, so does his soul. This phrase soul shall be cut off was used so many times in the Tanach we cant possibly look at them all now.

Leviticus 4: 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord, which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them...
A soul can sin. If the life that comes from God and is breathed into man is his SOUL and that soul can SIN we have a REAL problem here! Clearly the life that comes from God into man when he is born is NOT CAPABLE of sin for it comes directly from God. Clearly the patriarchs understood that a soul is NOT an eternal spirit that man possesses but is simply the conscious thoughts, memories, and emotions of the human being (which are given life only by the life breathed into man by God). The soul was CLEARLY seen as the FLESHLY appetites as well in numerous scriptures saying "the things thy soul lusts after have departed from you" and like sayings. The soul that sins... is a phrase that is repeated myriad of times in the Tanach in various forms. The life that comes from God CANNOT SIN for it comes from God and God does not sin.

Job 32: 8 But there is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding Deuteronomy 11: 18 Therefore shall you lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
This is one of the most important verses in the Tanach for it cross references directly to the NEW COVENANT and is our greatest explanation of the mark of God that is mentioned in Scripture. (It also explains why the antichrists followers have a mark of

the beast in their right hand and in their forehead, for the mark of the beast is an immitation of the mark of God we receive when we enter the New Covenant!) Gods laws and his WORD are written in our hearts and minds and according to Deuteronamy they become a sign or mark on our hand and a frontlet (adornment) between our eyes (in our foreheads in other words).

Hebrews 8: 10 For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord: I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I shall be to them a God and they shall be to me a people.
The writers of the new testament knew that the mind and the soul are the same thing. The command in Deuteronamy to lay up these words in your heart and in your soul was fulfilled in the New Covenant (by receiving the Holy Spirit of course) and the word soul from Deuteronomy is substituted in the Hebrew text with the word mind. This was done in NUMEROUS places in the NT and the OT. The words mind and soul have always been synonymous of each other. Furthermore the words will and mind and soul are often interchangeable as well! The WILL of a person is contained within their minds (which is also their soul). This is the REAL way we know Christ had his own WILL, separate from the Father because he had his own fleshly mind, (will, soul). God is Spirit and NOT flesh, so Christs mind could not have been Gods mind for it was FLESH! We know that the Son of God had his own will because he had his own brain and FREE WILL all men possess, (and not just because he prayed in the Garden saying not my will be done but yours. ) Christ submitted his will (mind) to Gods will (mind) and therefore had Gods MIND which overrode his (by his choice through submission). He had Gods SOUL which overrode his OWN soul (by submission to Gods soul). We have the same thing when Christ is IN us, through the Spirit, which is why the Apostles said we have the mind of Christ and let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. (Something that is only made possible by the New Covenant through the Holy Spirit dwelling in our MINDS and in our HEARTS). Christ had the Mind of the Father by submitting perfectly to him (which is why hes the only Begotten of the Father). We must be born again of the Holy Spirit to have this mind in us, Christ was BORN with it from the start! The mind and the soul (will) are CLEARLY contained within the brain of a creature! They exist and are alive only as long as that brain exists and is active and alive. Once the life that came from God leaves the brain and returns to God that brain (mind, soul, will) ceases to function. That is why the scriptures say to be carnally minded is death. Because if you are listening and obeying your OWN mind (the mind of your flesh) you are not submitting to the mind of Christ available through the New Covenant. Its also why Paul told the Corinthians that if you put your trust in the wisdom of men(which includes of course your own wisdom) you nullify the crucifixion, for the New Covenant came by way of the BLOOD of CHRIST and when you do not UTILIZE the Holy Spirit offered as a result of

the crucifixion then for you that crucifixion was in vain, for Christ was crucified to bring you the mind of Christ (Holy Spirit). Don't you see if all of this be true, then just about everything trinitarians teach of Christ is TRUE in that he had the very MIND and SOUL of God dwelling in his mind, he was ONE with God while he lived and of the same "essence." The only thing they are mistaken on is that he did not pre-exist this way from the beginning (and they make this mistake because they believe in an "eternal soul" teaching that is no supported in any Scripture). So, the trinitarians and those non trinitarians who believe in pre-existence of Christ are MAKING THE SAME ERROR. There is no difference between their doctrines (except that if the pre-existence of Christ were REAL that would most definitely make him GOD the Creator from the beginning). Thus the non-trinitarians who teach pre-existence are what I call "closet trinitarians," or at the very least "closet reincarnationists" or "closet polytheists" or "closet mormons (who believe men pre-exist with God" (for if Christ is not God, not A God, and is a man and pre-existed then ALL MEN MUST pre-exist). I'm repeating this over and over again on purpose, to drive it home. (And of course if you believe Christ pre-existed as an Angel you are supporting reincarnation). All of the scriptures (and I do mean ALL) that the pre-existence of Christ supporters quote (and that Trinitarians quote) to support their notions that Jesus was with God from the beginning or that he was God from the beginningor that he was "A God" from the beginning, these are explained by the knowledge that Christ, even though he had his own brain, mind, soul, and will, he submitted his own to that of the Fathers and became SUBMISSIVE UNTO HIS DEATH! When Christ spoke they were NOT his words, they were the Fathers. He said so plainly and the pre-existence and trinity people fail to understand this very simple principle. (A child could see it). Why do they fail? Because they dont want to see it, they want to believe what they want to believe, their minds are made up dont confuse them with the FACTS! When Christ said I came down from Heaven and will ascend there again it was the FATHERS WORDS NOT HIS! Why dont they get this? The mind, soul, will of the Father came down to earth by virtue of the Holy Spirit and dwelled in Christs mind BODILY (in his fleshly brain) and Christ submitted himself to HIM! The SPIRIT speaking through Christ said I came down from Heaven and I will go back is NO PROOF that Christ himself pre-existed nor does it prove that he was actually GOD! We know that the mind Christ used to understand and teach the TRUTH of the FATHER was not his own mind but was his Father's mind (because he said so). We also know that the brain Christ possessed was a MAN'S brain, made of flesh and blood (and was NOT the Father's brain) because God is Spirit and is not flesh and in fact the scriptures say the heavens and the earth cannot CONTAIN God. This is all we need to know that Christ indeed had TWO minds (his own and the Father's by the Holy Spirit) but he did not OPERATE with his own mind, giving his brain a BACK SEAT to the Father's mind. Christ's brain (mind, soul) was NOT the Father's brain (being flesh and blood) so Christ was NOT God but everything that issued forth from his mouth (his words) and act he

performed with his body was under the DIRECT CONTROL of the Father's mind! Christ was a WILLING participant in this and could have at any time exercised his FREE WILL and told the Father's mind to GET LOST! The fact that he didn't makes him the LORD OF GLORY and gives him a name ABOVE every other name! We do know that Christ had his own mind and free will he just didn't exercise it! Trinitarians say it's because he WAS GOD! They are, sadly, mistaken on this point. It's because GOD DWELLED IN HIM and he SUBMITTED to God. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE! We know that the PERSON of Christ (contained within his FLESHLY MIND) was NOT GOD, for God is Spirit and cannot be contained within a puny human brain (although we know that Christ's brain indeed was full of God for it says "in him dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily") We know that "fulness" means that Christ was FULL of GOD not that the FULL GOD was in Christ because we do know from the Scriptures that is not possible because the entire EARTH and HEAVENS cannot contain the full God! The mind of God was certainly present within the mind of Christ (filled to overflowing actually) but Christ did not possess the ENTIRE MIND of God. His fleshly mind cannot CONTAIN FULLY the MIND OF GOD! Its not that God is LIMITED, no the fleshly human brain is limited! This explains why, even though Christ possessed the mind of God he said no man knows the day nor the hour, not even the Son of Man, but only the Father knows. Christ was not ALL knowing, nor all powerful that is clear, and it's because he was filled to FULNESS with GOD but the fleshly mind is not large enough to hold the FULL ALL KNOWING GOD! (The entire EARTH could not hold HIM). He who says that the ENTIRE GODHEAD existed in Christ's brain, heart, and body simply does NOT REALIZE just HOW BIG is OUR GOD!

THE DEAD HAVE NO CONSCIOUSNESS Ecclesiastes 9:4- 5 4 For him that is joined to all of the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward: for the memory of them is forgotten.
I remember the LIVING BIBLE has a footnote to this passage that says something like this is the opinion of a person who is discouraged. Which, if the passage were found in the book of Job I might agree with them, but here in Ecclesiastes (the book of Wisdom) that makes absolutely NO sense! It is clear from this passage that Solomon did not believe in the conscious thought of man after we die! What has this got to do with pre-existence? Well, as I have said God is and has always been THE LIVING GOD, therefore if Christ were a God (but not the living God) then he

was a non living or DEAD GOD and had no conscious thought whatsoever. Plus, those who teach pre-existence also usually teach that man has consciousness after death. They will quote the text where Saul used a medium and conjured up the dead spirit of Samuel who then rebuked Saul and told him because he had disobeyed the law and used a medium he was going to lose his battle and join Samuel among the dead. Their argument is that this was REALLY Samuel and their defense of that argument is that the prophecy CAME TRUE, thus proving it WAS Samuel speaking through a medium. They dont understand that Saul BELIEVED it was Samuel, thus believed the prophecy and LOST HIS BATTLE AND WAS KILLED because he believed he would lose and die. The Bible calls mediums those with familiar spirits because these people utilize evil spirits who are familiar enough with the dead person who is being conjured to PRETEND to be this dead person! Believe me, Saul was NOT speaking to Samuel from the dead through a medium there is no way you are going to prove this Scripturally anyway! Our life is breathed into us by God and comes FROM God when we are conceived. The life has no personality or conscious thought but it gives life to our BRAIN (which contains all of those things). That is clearly born out in scripture. When we die that life returns to the one who gave it. If that life were to contain my personality, my thoughts, my soul then I would return to God (from whence I came) when I die. In which case how could a medium summon Samuel from the grave, being that he went back to God and his consciousness resides with God now! No, we do know that our soul is contained within our minds (our brain) and that ceases to function at death. The only reason it functioned at all was because God breathed his life into it and we became a living soul and when we die that life returns to God and we return to being what we started out as, DUST. (Dust to dust ashes to ashes). So, where is the evidence that Christ is different? Where is the evidence that his thoughts, memories, emotions were not contained within his fleshly mind like all other human beings and where's the evidence that (unlike all other men) HIS mind, consciousness, soul existed PRIOR TO his conception and that those thoughts, memories, personality (soul) somehow existed in Heaven with God from the start? If you are a trinitarian you probably think you have LOTS of Scripture to back that up but this article seeks to address the pre-existent beliefs of the non-trinitarian primarily. If you dont believe Jesus was GOD from the beginning but also believe that he pre-existed from the beginning, you MUST provide the Scriptural proofs that support your beliefs. I (and most other believers) will not accept anything less (as long as their are scriptures to quote). Once again, if you believe that our LIFE that we received from God when we were conceived contains our personality, thoughts, emotions, soul etc. well then what is your point or motivation of emphasing that Christ existed with God before he was conceived, being that the same holds true for ALL of us? It makes no sense that you would want to make an issue of this and use Christ as the lynch pin for your beliefs. Why not just focus on us ALL and Christ, the man, will be included in this? Show us the PROOF in

Scriptures that the life breathed into man from God contains that mans personality, thoughts, feelings, etc. and having proved that I will accept that Christ indeed existed with God from the beginning, as did we all! If you believe that Christ was A GOD who existed prior to his conception you are calling Christ and all the writers of both the Old and the New Testament either fools or liars for they stated flatly that only the Creator is the living God and you want to say no, but Christ was a living God and he existed from the beginning. You simply will NEVER be able to prove such a thing without rewriting the entire body of evidence contained in the Tanach and the Old Testament! I said that those who believe in pre-existence have unknowingly and inadvertently accepted trinity teaching and that is why, because only the Creator is a living God and all other gods (according to the Scriptures) shall perish for they are NOT real! They are concoctions of clever men according to the written Word! Now, you might say I dont believe he was a God but I still believe he pre-existed with God from the beginning. Okay, fair enough, now you have to explain why you are completely ignoring references in Scripture that, if Christ pre-existed, state clearly that makes him the Creator (trinity teaching). You cannot believe in pre-existence of Christ and then deny trinity. Theres just too much Scripture that, if you accept pre-existence, those Scriptures clearly state that makes Christ GOD! At the very least you'd have to accept that Christ was A God (if you believe in pre-existence) and since there is only ONE LIVING GOD in Scripture, Christ would HAVE to be the LIVING GOD, the CREATOR, if he pre-existed.

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the word was God.
If Christ pre-existed we do know from the body of the New Testament that he is called the Word made flesh. If you believe in the pre-existence of Christ, the man, you cannot ignore the above scripture. Why do you want to change it to In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and END IT THERE. Why do you insist upon ignoring the word was God? That is just ONE example of how belief in the preexistence of Christ DEMANDS that you also accept TRINITY. It also demands that you not only accept trinity but that you must acknowledge the most powerful advocates of the trinity, the Roman Catholic Church and must convert immediately. (Im not being facetious here Im serious). If you believe in the preexistence of Christ you must accept the Catholic teachings on trinity and you must also accept the Holy Eucharist. I will show you why that is in a moment!

John 6: 31- 33 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written. He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven: but my Father gives you the true bread from

heaven. 33 For the bread from God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Ill start my examination of this entire text in John by saying outright that Messiah is here not speaking of himself but is speaking of the Holy Spirit (the Word of God) and he is explaining HOW the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us! Christ is in no way saying that he HIMSELF came down from Heaven, literally! (As is taught by the trinitarians). I can show this easily from the text of this entire sermon alone. I can also show how, if you accept that Christ is talking about HIMSELF here you MUST accept not only the trinity but the Holy Eucharist (available only through the Catholic Church). Christ says plainly here I am the bread from heaven. If he is talking about HIMSELF that means he literally (he the man Christ) came down from heaven and that he is bread! That is the very context of the sermon that HE IS BREAD (the fact that the bread came down from heaven is not the context, the BREAD itself is the subject of his discourse). Christ says he is bread and you cannot dismiss this, say he's NOT bread, then say his IS come down from heaven though. The context is that he is bread! That he came down from heaven is almost secondary or subtext. More importantly you cannot ignore his statement that the bread from God is he who cometh down from heaven and giveth LIFE to the world! If Christ is talking about Himself then he has just identified himself as he who breathed life to the WORLD (the Creator himself). There is NO disputing this. You can't say he's not speaking of himself when he says "I am bread" and he says the bread "breathed life into the world." You cant say hes talking about Spiritual life because I can show you at least 14 or 15 scriptures that say GOD THE FATHER is the one that grants us eternal life not Christ! If Christ is directly talking about HIMSELF here and that HE came down from heaven you CANNOT DENY THE TRINITY ANY MORE and you MUST JOIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH for he has identified Himself as the BREAD and as we will soon see demands that we MUST EAT HIS FLESH in order to be SAVED! He is NOT talking about himself though, hes not even speaking OF himself and his words are NOT his own but are the Fathers words. He said later in John the words that I speak are not my own but my Fathers in heaven. We wont even look at that verse, its too well known. Sorry. I suggest you look at it later. Read the entire gospel John if you have to (in light of what Im saying here the book is going to open up to you like never before if you do).

John 6: 34- 38 34 Then said they to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believed not

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but of him that sent me.
Some might say that verse 38 refutes my entire theory that I came down from heaven is speaking of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is Gods own Spirit and can do nothing BUT the Fathers will. In verse 38 Christ appears to state that he had a separate will from the Father BEFORE he came down from heaven and that he came down from heaven specifically TO DO his Fathers will and not his own. It also appears to refute my claims that the Father is speaking and not Messiah for the Fathers will is the Fathers will and therefore, if the Fathers saying I came to earth to do the Fathers will it makes absolutely NO SENSE! What of Christs statements then that he came down from Heaven not to do his own will? Christ, when speaking often uttered words that ONLY the FATHER could say because his words were NOT his own but came from the Father. (Such as when he told the high priest before Abraham was I AM ). Trinitarians and pre-existence supporters alike use that one as evidence because they dont understand it was the FATHER speaking NOT CHRIST! This is NOT rocket science here. Yet, sometimes, the Father, when speaking through Christ ABOUT Christ would say me and I. Because the Son of God and the Father are one. It is the Son of Gods perrogative to do so as long as he speaks the truth as the Father has allowed him to speak! Sometimes the Father would speak directly, giving testimony of the Son and Christ would be talking of himself in the THIRD PERSON the Son of man does this or does that, but if Messiah had just been SILENT and let the Father speak directly ALL the time he would have continually spoke of himself in the THIRD PERSON, he might have just sounded like a lunatic! (Such as the character on Seinfeld who continually spoke of himself in the third person as if it was someone speaking about him, it was funny because its NUTS). Thats how Christ could say my Father will send you the comforter and then in the same breath say I shall not leave you comfortless, I shall come to you. In one instance hes speaking makes it clear the Father is someone else and in the next instant hes speaking as the Father. IF he is the Father hes split personality and would be diagnosed as such by any competent psychologist! We know then that when Christ said of himself things that ONLY apply to the Father, its the FATHER speaking through Christ directly and when he speaks of the Father as some other person its Christ talking about his Father (and even then I believe the Holy Spirit was telling him what to say for how would HE KNOW what to say of the Father?) Hence, no matter whether or not Christ was speaking OF himself (my Father does this, my Father does that) or whether the Father was speaking directly through Christ (before Abraham was I AM) it was STILL the Father GIVING Christ the words to say, it was the Fathers words not Messiah Yeshuas. Try to burn that into your brain and a lot of confusion will be avoided. This is what separates Christ from a mere prophet who would have to preface the words

of the Father with Thus sayeth the Lord. Christ felt no compunction or need to do that for he is the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER and he is the WORD made Flesh and dwelling among us. It got him in trouble all the time and eventually those who misunderstood made a deity out of him and think he IS the Father, but he had to remain TRUE to who he was the WORD made FLESH, he is the mouthpiece of the LIVING Father, he is the IMAGE of God the Father (he who has seen me has seen the Father). That Christ is a gift from HEAVEN ITSELF and that he is BREAD INDEED, and that he INDEED is the WORD MADE FLESH cannot and never shall be denied by me! The words are not Christs own, they are the FATHERS through the HOLY SPIRIT! This settles ALL the questions. Christ is a GIFT from GOD Himself but that does NOT MEAN that HE, the MAN, literally came down from Heaven to earth, anymore than he being bread from heaven means that hes literally BREAD that I must EAT! (The Catholics would beg to differ Im sure for they provide a way for us to eat the LITERAL BODY of Christ but we will get to that). We are also sent from the Father. Christ later in John says as the Father sent me into the world so send I you. That doesnt mean we came down from Heaven TOO even though Jesus says in the same exact fashion and way I was sent into the world so are you. If you are convinced that in John 6 Christ was speaking about HIMSELF you have no choice but to become a trinitarian because he stated things about himself (according to you) that ONLY THE FATHER, the LIVING GOD, the CREATOR could say. (Which explains why the trinitarians are so convinced they are right). You are BOTH making the same mistake by not understanding Christs words were NOT HIS OWN! If you believe they WERE his own, my question is to you is twofold. First, why do you not believe the testimony of the Son of God that his words were NOT his own but were the Father's, and TWO, why are you not a trinitarian? (For if he was speaking of himself and they were the Father's words, then he's definitely the Father) If you are trinitarian and believe his words WERE his own (being that he IS the Father) you cant just say its a mystery. You have to explain to me as well why you do not believe the testimony of the Son of God that his words were not his own? (Being that you say Jesus IS the Father then any of the Father's words would be HIS OWN words). Consider the trinitarian slant. They say that the Father and the Son are one in the same. So, the same refutes listed just now apply to the trinitarian argument! If Christ IS the Father, he cant say I came not to do my own will for the Fathers will IS his WILL! Many among the non trinitarian pre-existent supporters also deny that Christ had a different will than the Father. If this be so, and hes saying he just came down from heaven not to do his OWN will its nonsenical as well because he IS the FATHER, of course if he does The Fathers Will hes doing HIS OWN WILL (if the will of the Son is not separate from the will of the Father). The trinitarians call this the great mystery of the Godhead. That the Son of God could BE the Father and yet possess a separate will and attribute it to the fact that he was BOTH ALL GOD and ALL MAN! Yet they fail to explain why if ONLY Christs BODY was flesh and blood (man) but his SPIRIT is the Father, how he could EVER have a separate WILL from the Father, being that they teach that the WILL is contained within the SPIRIT of the man and not within the FLESH!

Some pre-existent teachers ALSO claim that Christs personality, his thoughts, (and by reason his WILL) pre-existed before his BODY was even conceived (from the beginning). Thus, Messiahs WILL must exist and come from his SPIRIT and not from his fleshly body in order for them to have existed BEFORE his body! That would make his Spirit Gods spirit, would make him of the same essence as the Father and proves the trinity! So the trinitarians and the non-trinitarians (who teach pre-existence) are in full agreement on one thing at least, that a mans will and character exist apart from their fleshly body! The trinitarians cannot explain, in light of this, how Christs will could EVER be different from the Fathers and call it a Mystery. The non-trinitarians say he wasnt the Father so of course his will was different. Look what Christ says earlier that the BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN (which the non-trinitarians accept as being Christ himself) also gave life to the world, (something only the LIVING GOD, the Creator does!) If the pre-existence supporters want to use this scripture as evidence that Christ said HE came down from heaven they HAVE to accept that Christ is he who gave life to the world in other words Christ is the LIVING GOD, the CREATOR! At least the trinitarians stay true to the context and the harmaneutics of the sermon and not only take the came down from Heaven part literal, but remain honest to the teaching and take the BREAD part literal (well get to that in a moment). The non-trinitarian pre-existent supporters want to make the I came down part Christ talking about HIMSELF, then make the "I am the bread that breathed life into the world" they want to ignore entirely because that would most definitely mean Christ was calling himself the Creator! If Christ is the ONE that came down from heaven in this sentence then hes DEFINITELY the bread (of life, the Creator)! I find their taking one part of the sentence in a way to make Christ talking about HIMSELF and then SPIRITUALIZE his being the bread (that breathed life to the world) to be just a perfect example of how some will simply make up their mind what they want to believe and then make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say!

John 6: 39 And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Concerning this verse the trinitarians are hard pressed to explain how Christ could say all of which he has given me since he IS the Father and did not require ANYTHING to be given to him but possessed it all from the BEGINNING and furthermore why he would speak of himself as SEPARATE from the FATHER at all! The non trinitarians dont have that problem with the verse but have another problem. Christ says that HE will raise it up at the last day, and all the Scriptures that cover the subject of the resurrection say that it is GOD HIMSELF who is doing the raising (including the very resurrection of Christ, for it says in many places that GOD raised him up). If Christ IS God they cant explain why it says GOD raised HIM up (being that he IS GOD and would have raised HIMSELF up from the grave). The non-trinitarians who think that Christ is speaking OF HIMSELF here cannot explain why hes making promises to do

something that ONLY THE LIVING GOD WILL DO (raise people up). The answer is simple, Christ, who said "the words I speak are not my own but the Fathers" also said the works that I do are not MY OWN, my Father does the works (again in John, you should READ the entire Gospel again after you finish this). Christ will do the raising but it wont be HIM doing it but the Father in Heaven. Thats so simple even a child can see it. I had a child say to me one time Moses didnt part the red sea God did. It is just so FOOLISH that they want to ignore this very simple principle. Sometimes Christ, for the purposes of clarity would make reference to HIMSELF and then speak FROM THE FATHER. This is where the confusion comes in so often times! Yet, if you want the I came down from Heaven part to be one of those times (a reference to HIMSELF) you have accept the part about him being the "bread that breathed life into the world) and you have to PROVE it! Im not going to just take your word for it and neither should anyone else. We DO know that Christ is not speaking of himself when he says this is the Fathers will who sent me because hed then be calling himself the Father and again, him saying I do my Fathers will is just silly if HE IS THE FATHER! If he IS the Father, hes doing his OWN will and saying I dont do my own will. That would truly be CRAZY! We also know that his words I will raise them up at the last day are the words of the FATHER for the OTHER scriptures say God shall raise them up at the last day. Of course, the trinitarians could argue that they said this because JESUS IS GOD and again, if you accept that interpretation of the above verses (that Christ is talking about himself here) then you cant explain why he says someone else is doing the works (the Father) and not him. To recap if you believe Christ was talking about and OF himself here then he said the following: 1. I am the Bread that came down from heaven (hes bread to be eaten). 2. Christ (the bread that came down from heaven) is the bread that breathed life into the world (Christ then is the CREATOR). 3. Christ is he who raises people from the dead (again that makes him the Creator). This is why I say if you believe in the PRE-EXISTENCE of CHRIST and use this scripture to prove it you have NO CHOICE but to accept the TRINITY!

RULE OF THUMB: When deciding whether something is literal or figurative one must rely on the Holy Spirit, yet there are some simple rules most will accept. First, if it CAN be taken literaly, you are well within your rights to do so (just make sure you have the scriptural and contextual license to do so). If it makes no sense to take it literal (such as a seven headed beast rising up out of the sea) you know for certain it MUST be figurative, and if it can be taken both literal AND figuratively you should rely on the Spirit to "rightly divide the word of truth."

If it can be taken either figuratively OR literally (or boty) but you feel it is figurative only, you better have the scriptural support to take it figurative only, if you feel it is literal only you better support that stand with scripture as well. In all things, therefore, try to have the scriptural support when taking it either literal or figurative because no scripture is of any private interpretation and no verse stands as an island to itself and most importanly rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal all TRUTHS!
In the case of taking it literal when it says I came down from heaven, its perfectly fine to take it literal IF you understand that it is the FATHER (Holy Spirit) speaking! If you dont want to accept this, and you instead want to believe that Christ is speaking of himself (contrary to common sense and logic and all that we know about men, that no man born of a woman as Christ was has ever originated from Heaven) and if you want to make these verses some proof that he pre-existed and then came down from heaven wheres your proof? You are BEGGING THE QUESTION by just saying I believe he is speaking of himself literally here and it proves he was in heaven before he was born, then came down. You cant just SAY IT IS SO, you have to PROVE IT! We know only ONE thing for sure. Christ was a man, born to Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem. We know, personally of no existence he may or may not have had prior to that! Trinitarians want us to just take on FAITH that he WAS GOD first, then literally came down from heaven. Pre-existence supporters want us to just take on FAITH that he was in heaven before his birth then came down. In light of the LACK OF EVIDENCE, I submit it makes NO LOGICAL SENSE to believe Christ is saying HE actually came down from Heaven and makes MORE logical sense by context (I am the BREAD that came down) that he is at least speaking figuratively about coming down from heaven for we KNOW that he is NOT BREAD TO BE EATEN! (Of course again Catholics would disagree vehemently on that but they havent PROVED HES LITERAL BREAD TO BE EATEN EITHER). If its not figurative that he came down from heaven then at least it MUST have been the Father talking there directly through the HOLY SPIRIT testifying of his LITERAL presence in Christ and that he came down from heaven.

John 6: 41 41 The Jews then murmured at him because he said I am the bread that comes down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Yeshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he says, I came down from heaven?
You have to admit its a VERY good question if you THINK that Jesus is talking OF himself here!

John 6: 43

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard and has learned of the Father comes to me.
People, this is the MOST important part of the TEXT! Christ here identifies two things. First, that theres no way youre going to understand how he can come down from heaven even though he was BORN to Mary and Joseph unless you have the HOLY SPIRIT and he shows us WHO is talking when he says I came down from Heaven. How do I make this leap? He quotes the prophecy which predicted the NEW COVENANT and the COMING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! This prophecy predicted the day when the New Covenant would be established and God would write his laws into our hearts and our minds through the HOLY SPIRIT!

Hebrews 8: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother saying Know the Lord for all shall know me from the least to the greatest.
So you see, while the trinitarians have very little proof that Jesus is talking about himself claiming to have come down from heaven (and the pre-existence crowd have even LESS proof) I have MORE than enough proof from the TEXT of the SERMON alone to prove that it wasnt Christ who came down to earth from Heaven but the HOLY SPIRIT and it wasnt Christ who was the BREAD it was the HOLY SPIRIT (but because Christ is the Word made flesh he BECOMES the bread that came down from heaven). Christ refers to himself as the HOLY SPIRIT because he is the WORD (the HOLY SPIRIT) made flesh! Does this mean the trinity is correct? Not at all? It only means that because Christ only spoke the words of the Father which he received directly from the Holy Spirit he was a WALKING TALKING IMAGE of the HOLY SPIRIT and by virtue a walking talking version of the Heavenly Father! He was the Word of God (the Holy Spirit) in fleshly form. That is why he said I and the Father are one and yet continually spoke of the FATHER as someone else. Theres no MYSTERY here anymore, but as Christ herein said the Father has to draw you to it and you have to be taught of God by virtue of the Holy Spirit made available by the New Covenant in Christs blood. Some of the disciples didnt even understand this sermon and went away mad! (Judas decided Jesus was in fact God and decided he knew how to prove it but that is another story).

John 6: 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he has seen the Father.
This is one of the most interesting verses of the text. To those who say Jesus was NOT God but was a man and yet still believe he had pre-existed WITH GOD you have to ask,

why would he say no man has seen the Father, being that he was a man and had preexisted with the Father all that time in Heaven. (As you can see I used to make a powerful trinitarian). If Jesus pre-existed with God and he was a man he could NOT say no man has seen the Father, but look he puts in an exception in the very next part of the verse except he which is of God, he has seen the Father. Thus, hes saying no man except the man of God has seen the Father! Now the pre-existence people will jump on that and say see he says clearly he came from God. Come on! Saying someone is of God doesnt mean that they literally were in heaven with God and came down to earth! It says that John the baptist was of God. It says WE are of God. It says Moses was of God and all the other prophets. None of them ever saw God with their OWN eyes. When he says he which is of God has seen the Father it MUST be figuratively speaking because there is NO EVIDENCE yet that that Jesus was up in Heaven where he saw God all the time then came down to earth at his birth. You are begging the question to take it that literal. You have to PROVE it! In light of the fact that every person who has ever been sent by God is of God we know that they all saw God in the figurative or Spiritual sense. Jesus here is contextually telling the Jews who murmured that they arent drawn of God and thats why they dont understand what hes talking about. They are not of God so they cant SEE the FATHER when they look at JESUS!

John 6: 48 "48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven that a man may eat thereof and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, has eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 for my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him. 57 As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live forever.
You see the Jews made the same exact mistake as the trinitarians and the same mistake as

the non trinitarian pre-existence supporters make by thinking that Christ was speaking OF himself. They clearly understood him to be saying "I am bread and I came down from heaven." They understood that he was calling himself bread from heaven, and the "bread that breathed life into the world." They werent stupid men. The Jews were familiar with ALLEGORY (they were ALL experts on it being well learned in the prophets who almost always spoke in allegory)! Yet, as I have always said here, the CONTEXT and the way Christ said these things makes it sound LITERAL and NOT figurative! That's why the Jews called him on it! They understood that if he said I came down from heaven and in the same breath said I am bread that came from heaven hes calling himself bread! They got sarcastic and said how will this man give us himself as bread to eat? THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS NOT CHRIST'S WORDS BUT THE FATHER'S THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. IT NEVER OCCURS TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT THAT MUCH OF WHAT CHRIST SAID WAS LITERAL ON TWO DIFFERENT LEVELS AND FIGURATIVE ON ONE LEVEL ALL AT THE SAME TIME! You say, ridiculous, something cannot be literal AND figurative at the same time. It can! That is why in Revelation Christ is depicted as have a "double edged sword" coming out of his MOUTH. His words are often LITERAL and FIGURATIVE at the SAME TIME! These verses are LITERAL FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE FATHER WHO LITERALLY CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN CHRIST, THEY ARE LITERAL FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF CHRIST BEING ONE WITH THE FATHER and they are FIGURATIVE IN THAT CHRIST WAS A MAN AND DID NOT COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN BUT WAS BORN TO A WOMAN. From the standpoint of the Father, the "bread from heaven" is literal (because the Holy Spirit is literally spiritual bread that we spiritually eat) and from the standpoint of the son of God he is figuratively and LITERALLY the "Word made Flesh." The Holy Spirit dwells inside Messiah and he submits so perfectly that he who sees him sees the Father. This literally makes him "the Word made Flesh" to US and therefore he's both literally AND figuratively "bread that came down from heaven" depending upon who's point of view you are looking from (Christ's or the Father from heaven's). Don't have a LINEAR view of Christ's words. The interpretation of Scripture is "spiritual discerned" by "rightly dividing the word of truth." This is not something I can teach, I'm sorry. Christ would often speak in parables and rely on the Holy Spirit to "reveal" the meaning. (Sometimes he would break it down and explain the meaning of the parable in private because he was also a very good teacher). When you understand that Christ's words were not his own and put your faith in that (because he said it was so and 90 percent of walking this walk is putting your faith in what he said). Simply put I don't have to prove that Christ was not speaking of himself, he said so and you either believe HIM and receive his testimony or you don't. You cannot take what Christ said, pick and choosing arbitrarily in your OWN MIND what he said was a literal reference to himself and what he said came "from the Father." Christ NEVER spoke OF himself, he only spoke of the Father! You can't say that Christ spoke of himself because he told you

plainly that the words he speaks come from the FATHER! CHRIST IS THE BREAD WE MUST EAT The trinitarians realized that at least this much is true, if Christ was speaking OF himself here, then he is BREAD we must EAT! The Holy Eucharist teaches that when the Priest blesses the wine and the bread during communion it LITERALLY becomes the body and blood of Christ. The Catholics who understand that if Christ ACTUALLY came down from heaven then he must ACTUALLY BE BREAD FROM HEAVEN THAT WE MUST EAT have created the Eucharist. They actually stated that anyone who DENIES the Eucharist (the literal body and blood of Christ) is ex-communicated and fallen from the faith! Because Christ says if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. The truth is, if Christ is speaking of his himself, saying he himself literally came down from Heaven then hes literally the BREAD and we must literally eat his flesh and drink his blood. Especially when you see him say my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed. Indeed means, really, it means in actuality it means truthfully. You have NO CHOICE therefore but to seek out the flesh of Christ to eat and the blood of Christ to drink and theres ONLY one place you can get that, from the Catholic Church through the Holy Eucharist (being that they are the only ones who claim the literal body and blood during communion). If Christ came "down from heaven" he IS the BREAD and must be eaten and in that case the protestants have SERIOUSLY erred therefore in departing from the keepers of the flesh and blood of Christ. You cant get the flesh and blood from the Protestants, for they will tell you that its not literally the flesh and blood but is only a SYMBOL of the same! Hey, we are taking these texts literally here remember. Christ, speaking of HIMSELF, literally came down to earth and is now meat indeed and drink indeed and we MUST eat and drink of him or we have no life in us. Furthermore, those who want to interpret it as Christ literally talking about himself here as having come down from heaven have no choice but to also accept the trinity for they have to accept that Christ (who they say was speaking of himself) promised to raise people from the dead ("I shall raise them up on the last day). That makes Christ God according to ALL the scriptures (for it says "God shall raise them from the dead"). Christ, by promising to raise people from the dead has made himself the LIVING GOD (for scriptures say only the living God raises people) in which case, since you accept the pre-existence of Christ in these verses (that Christ is speaking of himself here and that he came down from heaven) you have no choice but to accept everything the trinitarians teach about his deity and furthermore you have no choice but to seek out the literal body and blood of Christ to eat and drink and its only available in one place. The Catholic Church. I can hear someone wanting to argue with me now saying, "but we know that the

believers in Christ do not LITERALLY live forever, we all die eventually even after believing in Christ, so at least some of it is spiritual and some of it literal. You couldnt be MORE wrong about eternal life. Our eternal life we are promised is both SPIRITUAL and LITERAL for even though our body may sleep (and some of us may not have to sleep) our eternal life is both spiritual and PHYSICAL! There is an entire generation of believers who in fact will not die ever. When Christ returns they who are in Christ and still alive on the earth will be changed into immortal physical beings! They will NEVER die! So Christs statement shall never die is literally true as well as spiritually! (1 Corinthians 15: 35- 58) When we are raised from the dead the graves open, our bodies are reassembled, the life of God breaths back into us and we become a living soul again. Our brains will reactivate, our soul will have its memories and thoughts restored our minds will be renewed our bodies will be immortal (even as Christ was raised a physical body but immortal). Those who are still alive when the resurrection occurs will have their bodies changed into the immortal. (When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God its saying that we cannot reach this ressurection or immortality by acts of the FLESH, it all comes by the HOLY SPIRIT). IN CONCLUSION: The trinitarians have come VERY CLOSE to understanding the mechanism whereby Christ operated in the Fathers very image on earth but cannot comprehend for whatever reason this simple basic truth that Christ had the FATHER DWELLING IN HIM IN THE FULLNESS OF HIS MIND and ONLY DID WHAT THE FATHER SAID TO DO AND ONLY SAID WHAT THE FATHER TOLD HIM TO SAY. They call all of these questions a mystery. It is NO mystery, you simply have to submit yourself the the MIND of CHRIST via the Holy Spirit and it all comes clear. With these articles I write Im attempting to do to explain to carnally minded people, who are NOT relying on the Holy Spirit (the mind of Christ) but are instead trying to comprehend these matters with their own minds! Its a dauntable task and usually all I get for it from them is derision and persecution. They tell me my mind is fried, or that I am insane, or all manner of insults and I attempt to submit to the mind of Christ and to bear it, that Messiah Yeshua might save some of them! (For if they wont listen to the Holy Spirit offered by the BLOOD OF CHRIST they truly are lost). I sometimes feel like Im trying to explain to a group of neanderthals why the sun just went dark (during an eclipse) when they dont even understand what the sun is, or the moon or any of the basic mechanisms of the galaxy! Christ used parables (he didnt even try to explain it except privately to his "friends" the Apostles, yes he did call them his friends). Since I am attempting to explain these things I'm treating you as I would my own friends (and to some extent my children for my son knows of this web page, I tell him about it all the time and hope he will come here one

day and read these). So, I have my own son and my own dear friends in mind when I write these articles. Im hoping they will listen, not to me, but to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit! I attempt to let the Spirit do the explaining here. Im not so arrogant as to expect or insist that they ALL believe me. There are many who won't and that's fine. The Holy Spirit spoke to me expressly about the arrogance of expecting everyone to receive these things when I teach them, (which I did once possess) and said they wont listen to ME why do you think they will listen to you? In fact, I say to you all now DONT LISTEN TO ME! How many apologists would say that? If you listen to me you are nullifying the crucifixion. Listen to God via the Holy Spirit (given to you by Christ), if so be you have such a gift! I pray you do, if so, you dont need me to teach you for the Holy Spirit teaches you of all things and is truth and is no lie. In which case you don't need my essays! Praise God! Yet, these things MUST be said, and they MUST be explained in hopes that some might catch hold of the HIGHER CALLING we have in Yeshua Messiah and that they will listen to the Spirit after the workings of the inner man rather than trying to prove how smart they are in their own brains! Call me an optimist! Shalom Jeffrey D. Dean, Sr.