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care about," O'Brien said. "You've broken a number of pledges in this campaign. How can the people of Massachusetts trust you?" Romney responded by telling O'Brien, "It's time for people to hear the truth about your record. Politics is not a place for whining, this is a place for us to talk about our views." Howell, the Libertarian Party candidate, took a shot at Romney for not supporting a ballot question that calls for the repeal of the state income tax. If passed, the ballot question would remove $9 billion from the $23 billion state budget. "As governor I will veto any budget over $14 billion,' Howell told Romney. "But you oppose ballot Question 1. You are a big government, high tax, Republican politician, just like your predecessors." Stein, the Green Party candidate, took a shot at both major party candidates by saying Beacon Hill is too entrenched with special interests. "The same big-money forces that were in charge of the Legislature are still very much alive and well on Beacon Hill in both political parties," she said. Independent candidate Johnson complained that the discussion lacked specifics about budget cuts. "Not one of these people have said what they would cut if the income tax was rolled back, what they would merge, what programs would be merged," Johnson said. When O'Brien, who is state treasurer, pledged to cut duplication in state government, Romney shot back: "This is great, the treasurer is getting religion, I love it." He added: "I wish that when she was in the Legislature, instead of voting for the sales tax increase and the income tax increase and the excise tax increase and a higher gas tax, that she'd have taken those issues to heart." After Romney pledged to cut at least $1 billion in state spending, O'Brien said: "The problem is that in the last debate the numbers that you put on the table weren't real numbers, they were numbers that were pulled out of the air. And that's the difference between being someone who is a CEO or someone who has not been in public service, the numbers have to add up." One additional debate with all five candidates is scheduled for Oct. 21, but only O'Brien and Romney are expected for a final debate on Oct. 29. The gubernatorial election is Nov. 5.