Forum For The Abolition of Death Penalty - Comments

Comments (362 total)
Comment 1, Stern Face:
Δεν κατέθεσα την ψήφο μου διότι δεν μου δίνεται η δυνατότητα να πω αυτό που θέλω
ψηφίζοντας.
Είμαι υπέρ της θανατικής καταδίκης σε 1 περίπτωση μόνο. Στην παιδεραστία.
Για τον βιασμό είμαι εναντίον αυτής της τιμωρίας. Πιστεύω ότι θα έπρεπε να τιμωρείται με
ευνουχισμό.
Thursday July 5, 2007 - 09:13pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 2, Efi:
Κατά κύριο λόγο όχι, ειμαι κατά, σε κάποιες περιπτώσεις είμαι υπέρ όμως!!Για την παιδεραστία
σίγουρα ναι!Για τα εγκλήματα πολέμου επί χιλιάδων αθώων ναι!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 3, from_anotherplanet:
Τranslating: stern is against the death penalty except from guilty of pederasty, who should be
punished by castration, as he says.
Efi is also against, apart from pederasty and war crimes against thousands of innocent people.
Thursday July 5, 2007 - 08:36pm (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
I would also recommend that if you vote, it would be advisable to state your opinion and your
arguments by signing them. Some topics are too hot to permit us being safe in our anonymity.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 5, Louise:
Lou is for the death penalty - but with conditions attached.... only for the most severe crimes such
as mass murder - and only if the prosecution is watertight, 100% accurate.
In the case of dictators such as Saddam Hussein, I would agrre - those that committed atrocities
of war - those involved with the Jewish concentration camps and so on.
What concerns me is the number of prosecutions that are overturned due to tampering of
evidence, failure to provide all the facts for consideration in a case - where a case is not clear cut,
then the death penalty should not be considered.
Lou has a ruthless streak in her... ;)
Thursday July 5, 2007 - 11:44am (PDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 6, Lavica Vila:
I am for the death penalty, but never as retaliation in case of political prisoners or any other
alleged or proven crime where a life hasn't been taken. I am for death penalty only in cases of
convicted for "murder one" (cold-blooded, premeditated murder) or in case of serial killers.
As for the pederasts and rapists, (apart of castrating them) I would sentence them for life in some
prison where they will be raped over and over again by some brutal "gorillas".
P.S.
I didn't watch the videos, because I really can not stand the acts of violence, even the ALLEGED
justified ones.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 7, tanlaningskay:
ΓΗΣ ΜΑΔΙΑΜ ΕΓΙΝΕ, ΓΙΑ ΝΑ ΜΗΝ ΤΟ ΠΩ ΑΛΛΙΩΣ, ΜΠΕΡΔΕΨΑΜΕ ΤΗΝ ΒΟΥΡΤΣΑ ΜΕ ΤΗΝ
ΤΑΔΕ Κ.Λ.Π. Η ΥΠΑΡΧΕΙ ΕΝΑΣ ΚΑΝΟΝΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΙΤΟΥΡΓΕΙ ΕΤΣΙ Η' ΚΑΝΟΥΜΕ ΟΤΙ
ΓΟΥΣΤΑΡΟΥΜΕ ΚΑΤΑ ΠΕΡΙΠΤΩΣΗ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΩΣ ΜΑΣ ΕΚΑΤΣΕ, ΤΑ ΥΠΟΛΟΙΠΑ ΣΤΙΣ
ΕΚΠΤΩΣΕΙΣ!!!!!!!!
ΚΟΝΤΟΛΟΓΙΣ, Η' ΕΧΕΙ ΑΞΙΑ Η ΑΝΘΡΩΠΙΝΗ ΖΩΗ Η" ΟΧΙ!!!!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 8, Lavica Vila:
Η ανθρώπινη ζωή έχει αξία μόνο σε περίπτωση όταν είναι άξια!!! Και δεν μπορεί κανείς να
αποκαλεί άξιο κάποιον που προμελετημένα έχει αφαιρέσει μια ή περισσότερες ζωές, αγαπητέ
KAY!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 9, Anu:
I am against death penalty! Not any human being has got a right to decide of other people's life,
even if they were criminals. They are humans too and overall killing other people is bad. And
what if an innocent person was executed that way? I just think it is not right.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 10, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:
I am for the death penality for cases of murder in the act of a premeditated crime clearly intending
to commit the murder of an innocent individual or group of people - not in the act of self defense,
or war, - the death penality permitted for serial killers, as well as serial killers in the guise of
official positions - like Saddam Hussein. I am only in favor of the death penality when there is
DNA evidence equally supported by clear evidence without doubt. In favor of the death penality
when a very public figure is easily proven without a doubt to have commited serial killing. The
obvious would be Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mengele. The proof always must be publicly proven, with a
long waiting period to counter, or disprove the charges. I am against the death penality for normal
actions during war, or actions that are abnormal but clearly not intended to result in arbitry killing
of innocent people, regardless of which side is represented. I am against the death penality for
actions of any type of perceived self defence. There is no other reason to carry out the death
penalty. Prison sentences with counceling, and training to be productive, and self sufficient when
released depnding on the crime, the appropriate term in prison, and eventual, or never to be
released.
Thursday July 5, 2007 - 04:31pm (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Εven DNA evidence cannot reassure for the innocence of a prosecuted. I remind you of a
prefabricated case in US some years ago. The sentenced to death "had been proven" to have
raiped and brutally killed a woman.
He had been already executed, when it was found out that sperm had been taken and placed in
the vagina of the victim.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Exactly why there needs to be a long waiting period from the sentence to the death sentence.
Also there need to be the re-hearings demanded by the defence of accused, which is not always
permitted - this is usually the reason for the horrible mistakes of false execution. If there is any
doubt then there should not have been a death sentence in the first place. Also if the action of the
rapist was not clearly intended to kill the assailed then the chrage should not include the death
sentence, but an appropriately long sentence - or never getting released depending on the case.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And the execution would bring the victim or the victims back to life?
_______________________________________________________________________________
No, but the few people left in the catagory would be kept permenently out of the chance for
parole, or escape back into society, probably an extremely very small percentage would decide
not to carry out the crime if the outcome were known.
_______________________________________________________________________________
extremely small - I think is maybe more clear
_______________________________________________________________________________
And then (risking again to displease, but I am a known heretic) how can you explain the fact that
in Europe, where the death penalty is abolished, criminality is statistically less?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Needless to mention, that I am clearly against the death penalty, with any condition attached.
Human life is a value by definition. Even for the worst serial killer. Perpetual (which won't change
to eventual 25 years and labours) would be enough in my oppinion to punish.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Countries like the United States are a little crazy - there are no safe guards as there are in a more
socialist country for the education, and social support systems, as well as the lack of control over
the populace. Both systems have certain advantages - the freedoms alloted in life choices - lack
of controls over the individual, as well as the extreme mix of cultures negating the history of
perameters agreed to by a single culture - bring the obvious disadvantage in the U.S. in it's crime.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think the life stress levels are much higher in most individuals life experience in the U.S. - so if
something is wrong - it gets more pronounced
_______________________________________________________________________________
Wouldn't it be much clearer, honest and direct to search the reasons which lead to crime and
prevent them instead of trying to find the more humanitarian way to operate the patient?
(=criminal) whether it be the chair or the injection?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 21, ioanna:
Θα συμφωνήσω με την τοποθέτηση της Εφης... Ελενάκι μου δεν είδα όλα τα videos....
Ψυχοπλακώθηκα... Είδα μόνο το πρώτο και το τελευταίο..... φφφφ...
Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:23am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
The crimes which I am thinking of are a very small percentage - especially when the courts have
the responsibility of complete proof, and a lengthy waiting period. There are a very small number
of individuals that are dangerous to the public, and even the prison inmates. I don't think these
extreme examples have the possibility of reform, - could Mengele, or some of the wel known
serial killers be reformed and let out to the public later? I think we are talking about such a small
number of the most heinous crimes. The crimes commited that make 99% percent of the statistics
in the U.S. would not fall into even coming to a trial with the possibility of death.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I agree to reform and re-education, self relience, and character building in the prison sentence -
which is rare, unfortuneately.
_______________________________________________________________________________

The lengthy waiting period would only prolong, in my opinion always, the agony of the dead to be.
In how many cases the sentenced was granted grace, even if his guilt hadn't been 100% proven?
_______________________________________________________________________________
In these crimes the burden is to allow a change of verdict to a lesser charge, or freedom. If guilty
then as humane as possible death sentence is not of prime importance that the accused is left to
wait. As possible the available comforts are given. Perhaps if the accused is guilty then the wait is
the issue that should have been considered before the crime in such an extreme.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 26, Matthijs:
If the case is crystal clear (evidence, witnesses in abundance), you can eihter lock the beasts up
for the rest of their already miserable lives - squandering our taxpayers' money - or you can
simply put them out of their misery, and the question is which one is more humane, well I'd vote
for the latter option, on the condition, that the spectacle takes place at some public spot, for all to
witness. That it may be seen on YouTube too.
Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:28am (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 27, from_anotherplanet: I believe that nobody has the right to inflict death penalty on
nobody. I am no fool to state that I am not going to defend my life, if I am threatened or fight with
weapons -if needed- not necessarily for my ideals (but these of the majority) in case of war. But
violence brings violence, and the kingdom of fear and blood will never end, if we impose death on
life to defend life. It is an oxymoron by itself.
On the other hand, I respect everybody's opinion even if I totally disagree.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And as a taxed citizen (in 2 countries), I wouldn't claim that the proven beast must continue living
at my expenses. There are many ways to punish, and among them labour would be useful for the
rest of the community too.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Sure, put the bloodthirsty animals to work..what do you have in mind?
_______________________________________________________________________________
It can be very hard labour for works of public utility. There are many things to be done in all
countries of the world.
And I would say that it could be much more efficacious for any cold-blooded killer to prevent him
from crime than the knowledge that he will be shot or injected and his miserable life will be over in
some minutes. The labour can vary according to the crime... The way is not really the problem.
The human mind throughout history has been very inventive in tortures; so why cannot we find a
clever and sane way to both punish the murderer and give warning to the potential one?
_______________________________________________________________________________
With the kind of killers I am imagining you could not have them near anyone else. You would
need multiple guards to constantly to monitor and retain, as well as special equipment whatever
that might be especially for each prisoner in this catagory. The costs of guards, and separate
special quarters and equipment isolated from all others including other prisoners in this catagory
would prove pointless, and absolutely unbeneficial for any any benefit for work produced. The
cost would be unreasonably high, and end up costing quite a bit of money as opposed to
producing money. Perhaps there is some thing pratical, but I don't see it. These prisoners are
typically in special isolation cells in special prisons that are high security. The cost is very high for
the whole setup.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 32, Gerry:
Eleni..you have surely opened another 'can of worms'!!!!! Personally, I do not believe in the death
penalty...but if one of my kids were murdered? what then would I think or do? But I do agree to
'hard labour' whichever way you look at it...no 'mod cons' or comforts for prisoners. And if I had
my hands round the throats of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, or various others, who, in the
course of history, have caused death and privation by their actions, would you blame me if I
choked the bastards to death???
Friday July 6, 2007 - 01:47pm (EST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 33, Konstantinos:

Dear Eleni: I am against the death penalty! I feel very strongly about this because I consider the
death penalty to be legally, morally and ethically wrong! If necessary, I would explain my position
in detail. Just drop me a line. Warmest regards, Konstantinos
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 34, tanlaningskay:
ΠΑΛΙΑΟΕΒΡΑΙΚΕΣ ΛΟΓΙΚΕΣ...ΑΥΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΑΥΤΑ ΜΑΣ ΦΕΡΑΝΕ ΕΔΩ ΠΟΥ ΕΙΜΑΣΤΕ ΚΑΙ Ο
ΝΟΩΝ ΝΟΗΤΩ.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 35, Alexandros ^:
Well, I am against death penalty because no human has the authority to undertake another
human life. Consider though the fact that in many countries we had and still have civil wars that
are equivalent to death penalties -with the only difference that in these cases we are talking about
thousand of deaths. Executions and death penalties do exist and will continue to exist. On the
other hand I am in favor of self revenge when it comes to children –eye for an eye. So if someone
murders a child his parents might have the right to murder him in revenge.
_______________________________________________________________________________
That makes you come in my words Alex. I would prefer it your way, but I suppose that chaos is
next. That's why I said I am in favor in pederesty cases. If I may add a little something in my
opinion, I totaly agree with Helen that a proven beast should not continue living at my/your
expences.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Is our question more economical or moral? The cost of keeping a prisoner isolated in hard labour
with guards etc is the most important, so as to make us create a whole system around the kind of
the punishment?
Hitler was enough clever and coward to commit suicide with a hydrocyanic bullet, Stalin did know
what labour meant by sending thousands of his opponents or the dangerous to the State to
Siberia and Saddam Hussein was insane to the point of taking pictures of himself with his cell
phone while he was being hanged. For people who don't evaluate human life death penalty
means nothing as punishment. Our question is to satisfy the need of the mob for revenge?
Crucify him / chop him to pieces and our problem is solved?
And what about this famous Christian love and forgiveness? Personally I never claimed to be
religious; I am agnostic yet I am definitely opposed to death penalty considering it as brutal,
barbaric and immoral.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 38, Julia:
I am definitely against the death penalty. I join those who say that no-one has the right to decide
whether another is to die and I would add that I am not sure at all whether execution is a
deterrent and wonder about what lesson is taught by killing someone to show that killing is wrong.
That said, I have a friend who is a Justice Department drug prosecutor and apparantly he has
stories that would make someone switch to favouring the death penalty. Prisons are
overcrowded, the solution is not to just build more, perhaps the penal code should be revamped
:') Once again, I have a film to recommend, that addresses the issue of the death penalty: 'Dead
Man Walking', based on a true story, with Susan Sarandon (as a nun, which covers the Christian
compassion issue) and Sean Penn. There is one scene in that film where one's world turns inside
out; I'll let you discover it.
I'm not religious at all, so consideration of Christian compassion doesn't enter my thoughts; I take
this from a moral, ethical and psychological viewpoint.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I have seen the film.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 40, Nikos:
Μεγάλο θεμάτακι άνοιξες αλιενάκι! Φυσικά και είμαι κατά... κανείς άνθρωπος δεν έχει το δικαίωμα
να αφαιρεί μια ζωή, μόνο ο Θεός. Η καλύτερη τιμωρία άλλωστε θεωρώ πως είναι η στέρηση της
ελευθερίας, όχι ο θάνατος.
Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:49pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think the Christian view is that the natural brute beasts were made to be killed and destroyed 2
peter 2.
Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:01pm (CEST)

_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 42, AKK:
Many people are not afraid of death. There are others who love it! I am against the death penalty
because it has no meaning. The death penalty is a solution only for some stupid societies who
are unable to deal effectively with the antithesis of the "human condition", the "soul" or if you like
it in simple words, the problem of love, hate, life and death.
p.s. Once upon a time I was very angry at a house duck (!). It had created a mess out of an
experiment of mine in a lake in Ikaria. It had killed almost all 40 rare wild ducklings that we had
liberated there. I borrowed a gun and I shot at the duck many times. But it was a small caliber and
the duck didn't die. I came out on the shore and me, still very angry, finished the duck off by
stangling it!!! I felt disgusted by my doings but somewhere deep I felt a wild joy. I still have the
recollection. That strong the feeling was!
Oh, no no no! I am against the death penalty in all cases!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 43, sanhareeb p:
ty for the blog..great!!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Great about what? I don't seek for compliments with my blogs. I ask for opinions. If I wanted to
congratulate myself, I would have written a letter addressed to me. Besides, it's very much in
fashion.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I see it as a moral obligation to eliminate from society by death the person that has trangressed
beyond rehabilation in the act of premeditated perverted intentional killing. I don't think there is
rehabilatation for a mass murderer, or serial killer, etc... Already mentioned what I think should be
normally included and not in a society with the death penality. Revenge is in the mind maybe of
the victims relations, maybe not. I don't think revenge is the point.
Friday July 6, 2007 - 09:14am (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________

I repeat: for a premeditated - perverted - intentional killer, life has no meaning at all, so there is no
point at all to impose him death penalty. He doesn't care if he lives or dies himself.
And if revenge in the mind of the relatives of the victims is not the point, then what is the point?
_______________________________________________________________________________
I read your comments with great interest. I was intrigued by the religious and the humanitarian
aspect that motivated your responses to Eleni's wonderful posting. The death penalty seems to
be a form of justice to some of you. Respectfully, I would like to repeat that I am against the use
of the death penalty in all circumstances. It is a crime commited in the name of justice, which I
believe impairs the human dignity, increases the level of brutality and provides no added value in
terms of deterrence.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 48, Haraldur J:
how about coming up with some tangible alternative to death penalty?

our societies are all about economics, so why not,in extreme cases, punishments? why shouldnt
we consider saving money on jails and execute the most extreme killers and maybe pederasts,
the money saved could then be used to better conditions of the least fortunate or for preventive
crime fighting
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 49, Yannis & Phaedra:
Very interesting topic and I agree with you Elenaki.
I am also against death penalty. Deciding whether a human being should live or not is beyond our
rights. There are so many other ways to protect society from criminals. We cant fight criminality
with violence.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 50, Yannis & Phaedra:
I'll come back when I'll have more time to read all the comments and take part at the conversation
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 51, annoula:
BY ALL MEANS AGAINST!!! I believe that life and death are not our terittory. Since we cannot
give life back to a dead man, we cannot take it away from an alive person. Besides, punishing
killers -for killing- by killing them, retracts the whole idea! Executing someone vanishes him out of
life and does not make him a better person! No research has proven that violence has decreased
due to the presence of death penalty. Or should we consider that no criminal performs a crime
having in mind that he will get caught..?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Speaking about "tangible alternatives for extreme cases", if you insist on discussing the subject
economically, I will remind you of the book of Victor Hugo "Les Misérables". If the main hero,
Jean Valjean, was sentenced to life in prison for stealing a bread (and I can historically reassure
everyone, that cases like that in the 19th century were not at all fictional or imaginary), I don't see
why we cannot put a Hitler to a dungeon 40 metres under of the surface of the earth to rotten for
the rest of his life.
_______________________________________________________________________________
................. waiting for your economical part Eleni
_______________________________________________________________________________
And who permitted Hitler to become a Hitler and Houssein to become a Houssein, if not society
itself? Whom should we blame here?
Wasn't it the mob in Russia, who razed the tyrans, the Romanoff family and put another idol on
the pedestal, name him Stalin? After the collapse of the eastern block they are so idiots today to
want canonize the Romanoff family, as if the last tyran makes the previous ones tyrans of minor
importance.
The mobs gave also power to Hitler. If we have no brains, and we are apolitical and we can so
easily be manipulated by demagogues, if we cannot be taught by History, and know the essential
rule that history is repeated over and over again, what is the point to speak afterwards and to
stigmatize the beast?
_______________________________________________________________________________

so you sugest that no crimminal are guilty because the are condoned by society?
_______________________________________________________________________________
No, on the contrary. Criminals are guilty. But to stop producing criminals, fix the society first.
_______________________________________________________________________________
and until then? slap on the wrist a life sentence (14- 18 years in most european countries, with
parole for good behavior) and a education that many non criminals cant afford, and then back in
business?
_______________________________________________________________________________
and how do you stop producing criminals?? only way that is possible is to make no laws contrary
to human nature :P
_______________________________________________________________________________
Education would be a good answer. To hell all Arts and Classical Letters, if we cannot see what
the purpose of the so called "Humanitarian Sciences" is. To appreciate superficially Arts means
nothing! Classical education focus on HUMAN BEING as value.
Educate people, and I doubt if crime still continues!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 60, Anu:
How could you kill a duck just because you were angry?
_______________________________________________________________________________
education good idea
VILLANOVA, PENNSYLVANIA--Officials at Villanova University announced Monday that they

have removed a plaque from a library study area dedicated to Dr. Mine Ener, the history
professor who admitted murdering her infant daughter before killing herself a year and a half ago.
James Porter appears in court to answer 46 charges of sodomy and indecent assault—charges
that trace back to his days as a priest
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/media/suffer-pf.htm
_______________________________________________________________________________
And what does it prove? That this Dr. Historian understood in depth what history means? What is
history? Parroting dates, names and fights?
And how this priest appeals to the case? Because he appears to represent God on earth? Do we
forget that many religious people are hypocrites? Who sent so many innocent women to be burnt
as witches? Who made Galileo revise his theories? Who resisted to the evolution of sciences?
Who cursed Algebra, Geometry and Greek Letters as works of the Devil? Priests. Who
slaughtered Hypatia? Priests and later Saints. Please, let us stop this fairy tale!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 63, DZ:
is it really important to ponder about the death penalty? There are so many ways to kill should the
socally accepted authority wishes to do so!
You may call it suicide, accident, or whatever. The death penaty is just a "televised" way killing.
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 12:12am (BST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
This is another subject, dear SEDZ. Let us first find solutions to the obvious, and afterwards we
can discuss on any camouflaged intention of any government. To decode the political intentions
of those who cope with power is a whole art and it needs much more grey matter.
Here we have to handle with something notably more apparent and clear, such as the death
penalty, institutionalized by law in many countries, and instead of branding the murderer -whether
it is the individual or the state which imposes the penalty, we carry on analyzing the grade of
blood already spilt or to be spilt, by legalizing killing at will.
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 01:38am (CEST)

_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 65, DZ:
Yet death penalty is so insignificant when compared to mass murder. Think of wars genocides
etc.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 66, DZ:
There is a nice Greek proverb to describe my thesis: μακρυα απο τον κώλο μας και οπου θέλει ας
εμπει.
_______________________________________________________________________________
We are talking about mass murder too. As for the proverb I won't comment it directly. If our
neighbour's house is on fire, we are in danger too. Because this mentality of indifference fed the
monster of fascism. Hitler was not the only dictator in Europe at the time. There was also
Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal, Μεταξάς in Greece. People prefered the
role of the flock instead of the political and responsible human beings, who decide for their
destiny. What did they do? They deified the monsters and they fed them. Afterwards the whole
humanity lamented the victims. We are responsible for our actions and we always deserve our
leaders.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 68, [deleted]:
Woww Composing a comment number 65!! lol OK!!! Here it is:
I’m definitely against death penalty!! I think that person who is involve in any murder or crime, is
actually a victim of many psychological social wars and crimes himself!!
I also believe that No one has a right to take life, even life of a cockroaches!!! life is a gift has been
given by god and only he has a right to take it back!
What about if we make criminals to do work , and do something good for others, they may also
find the opportunity to change and deal with their own angers! not in a bad and very difficult
environment tho ( so they may kill another 1000 people in their mind every second of every day!) I
suggest a building job with Art and Church and sport activity as a side part of a treatment!
Friday July 6, 2007 - 05:30pm (PDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 69, DZ:

Τα λες ωραία ομορφούλα.
Probably I agree with everything you say.
I am part of the current mentality. The reason is simple: I cannot see a way of how to make a
difference of any kind, provided the individualistic nature of human ideology at this historical
phase.
Probably a big disaster, a large scale long term problem, could shift the current status. I believe
the solution is hunger. Please note that I am not a disguised KKEs.
But world war 3 would simply not be enough, as history indicates, world war 1 and world war 2
were disasterous in shifting human ideology to the best. In fact it seems to me that at least the
British society after the war became worst in may respects.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 70, DZ:
In other words. God help us.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I have some objections here, dear Darya. If the lion is about to devour you, will you not defend
your life?
And what does "not in a bad and very difficult environment" mean? Should we also send roses to
Hitler and a bottle of Dom Perignon for having massacred 6 millions of Jews and so many
Gypsies, Slavian and arians in concentration camps? Punishment is punishment and custody is
custody; not a recreation place nor vacation.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 72, DZ:
Not that the British society was not F!@##!d up before that.
_______________________________________________________________________________
To the point! We are talking about death penalty. Not world war 3 in comparison with 1.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 74, DZ:
They are accountable. For being unable to eliminate every human being during their lifetime.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 75, DZ:
I dont understand how u manage to see any light in the tunnel. What we experience is a mess of
a mass scale.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Permit me not to share the very cute and christian - but completely out of space and time point of
view to put sense to insane mass murderers, by making them draw Crucifixions and and chant
hymns. What do you mean by "accountable"? Are you referring to logistics? Was it uncountable?
And if you read what I have already posted you could find out how I can still be optimistic.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 77, Neetish:
(well you beat bigg with the most number of comments)

we aien't God, aien't got no right to kill nobody, and especially aien't right when we claim we're
doin the right thing killing them. to kill because they killed, that just does't sound right.. (nor does
death penalty for any other reason)
(and what's pederasty?)
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 01:11pm (BDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
(oh SH#T.. i don't think i wanted to know what pedastry is...)
_______________________________________________________________________________

err.. pederasty* (that's the last time i'm sayin that :-& )
_______________________________________________________________________________
(and i aien't waitin hours for those videos to load just to see somebody bein brutally murdered)
_______________________________________________________________________________
i'd even say murderers are more humane than states that serve the death penalty, which are
nothin more than institutionalized organized brutal, and worst of all heartlessly automated, mass-
murder networks who kill people like they were cattle..
_______________________________________________________________________________
but when it comes to people like hitler... hmm, aien't hitler more of a government-that-gets-
people-killed, just like present-day death-penalty issuers, only in this case for the crime of being a
jew, than a murderer that is to be killed? i don't think he killed six million people himself.. these
death penalties aren't much different from those... a state that thinks it is the supreme all-powerful
lord of humans executing somebody it knows nothing of...
_______________________________________________________________________________
Okay, okay. We repeat over and over again the case of Hitler. However Hitler has been dead for
60 years now, unless I am not informed. Stalin and Mao are dead. We shot off Νicolae
Ceauşescu, we hanged Saddam. The point is not to permit ever again these kind of monsters
exist, by being politically on the alert and more active as citizens.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And I would agree with you that Hitler was the product of the system and same time motivator.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Eleni: I could not agree with you more! Well said! Haraldur J. brought up the economic
benefit to the death penalty. I am an economist but I believe that as a society we can not base all
of our decisions on economics. If this was the base of all of our decisions, then we would be
executing people when they retire so that they do not burden the system. A civilized society has
to be compassionate or ... . My opposition to the death penalty has little to do with compassion
and more to do with the reasons that I mentioned above. Warmest regards, Konstantinos
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 12:38pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 86, Billy:
I did not watch your movies, Eleni. I think one doesn't need voyeurism to be an opponent to death
penalty. Only people that have no imagination at all would need it, perharps.
Death penalty is a barbarous answer to crimes. It is even worse than the crime itself, since it is
always a murder with premeditation. Oh, sure, it is easy and it saves money (always money!)
since it destroys the culprit (that were not always guilty...). Only it is a deshumanizing, immoral
act. Also, it has been largely proven as having no dissuasive effect and being unfair (rich vs poor,
white vs black, and so on).
I wrote a couple of blogs about it also some months ago: you could read http://tinyurl.com/2xq9jz
and http://tinyurl.com/2g8twj for instance if you are interested.
As for mass murderers, I am quite fed up with usual references to Hitler or Saddam Hussein
when it comes to 'justifying' death penalty. Truman was never tried for killing thousands hundred
civilians with atomic bombs. He was a winner, that's all. 'Vae Victis', that's all. This has nothing to
see with justice, it is only the winners killing the losers, like some animals do.
It is great to see that the European society has evolved in the good direction for several decades.
Abolition is main criterion for admission inside the European Union. War criminals in ex-
Yugoslavia will not be killed. The more I know the world, the more I love Europe.
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 01:15pm (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
trust people to go to the extremes :P and quote comments out of context,who should the civilized
society be compassionate to? The murderer? The abuser of inocent children? or the children
themselfs. Those childrens that have no hope for the future and maybe become murderes for lack
of compassion? The people that are not born in the right country where the society takes some
care of the less fortunate? Oh no we worry and debate whether or not cruel monster should be
executed:
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Eleni
1) For the deadly Lions, this is my answer : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM for
me I’ll avoid to confront them, I like to let them be for zoo amusement or to keep the balance of
nature ecosystem ! lol!!!
2) And for the Hitler , I didn’t meant some one like him! He representing a government an
philosophy who agrees with the dead penalty , I also think that the followers made Hitler a Hitler!!!
( Hitler or anybody else) some people just want to be belong to a wave or a group to comfort
emotional fears they forget to be fair!!! and they don’t know or don’t want to care for what damage
they are responsible for!!
3) And for the Roses ?! NO I didn’t meant that !!! but let them work in a farm or close to a garden
so they may notice or not to forget the beauty of Roses …lol …!!
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 04:28am (PDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ok, Konstantine, Billy and Darya. Pretty understandable.
Haraldur, and the message is? Save money from keeping murderers in prison to take care of the
less fortunate children in the world? And to teach them what?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 90, Sitalkisking:
Πρέπει να υπάρχει η θανατική ποινή για απολύτως εξαιρετικές και προσδιορισμ΄νες περιπτώσεις
ειδεχθών εγκλημάτων με ταυτόχρονη θέσπιση κανόνων δίκαιης δίκης ακόμα και για τους
τρμερότερους των κακούργων
_______________________________________________________________________________
I have been sent a link by Haraldur about a case in Denmark, some years ago which shocked the
public opinion. This of Peter Lundin. The info below is from Wikipedia:
[Peter Lundin, full name Peter Kenneth Bostrøm Lundin, was born in 1971 in Denmark. In 2001, a
jury sentenced him to prison for life for the murder and dismemberment of his partner Marianne
Pedersen and her two sons in a house in Rødovre near Copenhagen on June 16th 2000. In spite
of extensive searches, the dismembered bodies have never been found. Ole Lundin, the father of
Peter Lundin, was convicted for possession of about 200 items owned by Marianne Petersen.
Peter Lundin was found not to be insane.
Prior to the murders, Peter Lundin served seven years of a twenty year sentence for the murder
of his mother in the USA, whom he buried on a beach at Cape Hatteras. Ole Lundin was
sentenced one year as an accomplish. While serving this sentence, Peter Lundin was interviewed
by Danish TV in 1994, with his face painted partially black to symbolize the good and the bad. In
relation to this interview, the Danish doctor Sten Levander awarded him 39 points (of a possible
40) on the Psychopathy Checklist.
Peter Lundin now goes by the alias of Bjarne Skounborg.]
My position to be realistic: When we say imprisoned for life, we must mean for life.
_______________________________________________________________________________
and if the poor criminal is claustrophobic??
_______________________________________________________________________________
And to translate outlines of the comments in Greek.
Ioanna: agrees with Efi

Tanlanigskay: What sort of mess is this? Either human life is valued or not
Lavica's comment on tanlaningskay: Human life has a value only if the person himself gives him
value. Not in cases of a premeditated murder.
Nikos: against death penalty; believes that only God can take life
Sitalkisking: there must be death penalty for extreme and pretty defined cases of crimes with
simultaneous legislation reassuring the fairest conditions in trials for even the worst killers.
And a correction: sternface: death penalty for pederasty and castration for the rest of rapists.
And Eleni's comment on sternface:
(And here how should we cope, if there had been false accusations and the accused is already
castrated?)
Please correct me if I miss something. But I would suggest that we all write in English here. The
topic is very serious.
_______________________________________________________________________________
LOL! Haraldur! We don't discuss on the abolition of all penalties to show that we are
humanitarian. We know that we don't live in a utopistic society.

_______________________________________________________________________________
hmmmmm do you now?
_______________________________________________________________________________
lol I just noticed my grammar and spell errors!! God so embarrassing !!!
_______________________________________________________________________________
...and I would like to thank especially Billy for mentioning Harry S. Truman. He was one of the
biggest unofficial mass killers in history.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I would also strongly recommend Billy's blogs on his page about death penalty and lethal
injection. The statistics and the numbers given in these amazingly interesting researches are
breathtaking!
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-c8EK7C4zcqo4ERifetBHcrax2BzyS2M-?cq=1&p=145
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-c8EK7C4zcqo4ERifetBHcrax2BzyS2M-?cq=1&p=148
_______________________________________________________________________________
I am not so familiar with what a serial killer, or mass murderer thinks. I remember Ude -
Saddam,s son in Iraq went to great lengths to survive. Saddam also hid in a dug out area near a
house. Mao survived until old age. Once captured I could imagine the outlook changes for the
criminal about his view of displaying concern about his or her execution. Showing indifference to
the execution is a attempt to exert, or display control over the captors. A society has a right to
protect itself against the desease of extreme crime. This type of killer is not safe to allow free
movement amongst other prisoners, and will never be safe to re-enter society. The execution it
seems to me is to vanquish the killer from the human race in protection of the society, it is not
revenge motivated, and has nothing to do with the personal viewpoint of the killer.
Saturday July 7, 2007 - 10:23am (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Alright, again Mao ... And who says that Mao didn't have a vision for his people (whether we
agree with it or not), same way as Truman had to finish the war?
Was Truman a saint or should we all shout out loudly supporting the pharisaism of the Jesuits
"the end justifies the means"?
Shall we put on the scales all criminals throughout history to find out who is more criminal than
the other? Please let us not support our country's politics to the point of continuing the cold war,
or else I will ask by my turn, these famous first Americans who celebrated their Independance
day a couple of days ago did they or not take good care to exterminate the majority of the Indian
natives in their own country?
I find far more honest for the supporters of the death penalty to talk on economics. We are not
going to write an essay on which killing is the best!
______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 101, Louise:
The death penalty isn't just about punishing the guilty for their crime, not about saving money - it
is also about protecting society from these evil people.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 102, BETTY:
Δεν ξερω αν ειμαι υπερ ή κατα σε ολες τις περιπτωσεις που εχουν ηδη προαναφερθει.Το εχω
σκεφτει αρκετες φορες και δεν εχω καταληξει καπου ωστε να πω με σιγουρια ναι ή οχι!Αν ημουν
η μανα ενος θυματος παιδεραστιας Ελενη, δεν ξερω πραγματικα πως θα ενοιωθα.Μονο που το
σκεφτομαι μου σηκωνεται η τριχα!Αν ακουμπαγε καποιος εστω και μια τριχα απ'το γιο
μου,μαλλον θα τον σκοτωνα με τα ιδια μου τα χερια!Τα βιντεο δεν θα τα δω γιατι εχω αρκετη
θλιψη ηδη στη ζωη μου και δεν μου χρειαζεται κι αλλη.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 103, Julia:
I thought of a book to read, after my film recommendation: The Executioner's Song, by Norman
Mailer, about the Gary Gilmore case. Gary Gilmore was put on death row in Utah, for the murder
of a few people. What made this case interesting was that he actually pleaded to BE executed
thus putting the entire system into question. His younger brother Mikail Gilmore, a journalist at
Rolling Stone, wrote a(n auto) biography about his brother and the background that lead up to the
execution, book is called 'Shot in the Heart'. Without even mentioning the Mormon 'ethic', there is
a lot of an eye-for-an-eye attitude, which, in the light of the current discussion, I totally disagree
with.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Translating Betty's comment: She doesn't know if she favours death penalty for all cases
mentioned above, though she has thought of the subject many times. Even imagining that her
son could be victim of pederasty, she might kill the guilty with her own hands.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Thanks a lot for recommending the book, Julia. I will search for it. It seems very interesting.
_______________________________________________________________________________
well i like to see something serious to be descused am that humble..thats why your blog is great
congrats..! ty
Sunday July 8, 2007 - 04:20am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
... and now that you appeared and you congratulated me, I say thanks. But what is your opinion
on the subject? Don't be so humble. We don't bite, even if we don't agree.
Sunday July 8, 2007 - 01:30pm (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
And to epitomize so far. With the exception of those who are clearly against or in favour of the
death penalty, what do we have?
1. We castrate the rapists and the pederasts and we put them in prison to be raiped daily by
gorillas. (Clearly against the act of rape and very educative!)
2. We self revenge our children ... And what about the orphans? Who is going to take revenge for
them?
3. We kill the bastards and we save money to educate the less fortunate and to protect society.
4. Killing the capitalistic way (name it also liberal) is better than killing the communistic way.
Anything else?
_______________________________________________________________________________
i dont care..i dont intend to kill or steal or **** or fight with anybody ..i dont have a style of thinking
or a beliefs to spread it in the world..so i dont care for the death penalty....about others its there
job ..not my business...in this moment i think like that..dont know for the coming hours.
Sunday July 8, 2007 - 07:16pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ok, pretty clear. So the blog and the theme are not "great"... at least for the coming hours.
_______________________________________________________________________________
as Sanhareeb doesnt think, fight, steal or believe i dont know what he is doing on a blog site :P
_______________________________________________________________________________
And to make myself clear once and for all.
To agree with everybody is impossible, especially on matters of principles. To give arguments

and have another opinion is NOT a fight. It is called DIALECTIC and it comes as packet with
democracy. Without it everything remains stagnant and dies. The second step is action.
The other way is to just pray and hope. Well, I am not very fond of this last one with the absence
of the first; otherwise I would be a preacher, a nun or a moralist.
_______________________________________________________________________________
lol and youre not?

_______________________________________________________________________________
I might be this too. But not ALL the hours. *wink*
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 115, strandkorbtraum:
those videos were horrible.. terrible to watch... especially the one about the girl Atafa (if you write
it like that), she would be my age now... she would have turned 19 this year... thats too young...
I don't know what to say.. but I just can't think of any "reason" to take someone's life... life is
something special...
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 116, judgefour:
I am against the death penalty, it belongs to the past.
_______________________________________________________________________________
eleni i didnot say your blog isnot great..did i say that..?if u thought so its u not me..and am here to
say what on my mind like e one else..and when u fight something u put a new rule..may be that
lead to a new penalty.
Monday July 9, 2007 - 01:42am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Sanho, this particular blog is not a blog for fun nor on artistic point of views, literature or
music, where a simple "thank you for posting this" can be enough, either we share the views and
the tastes of the blogger or not.
It is a question on life itself, that's why I am determined not to caress anybody's ears. All my blogs
are open to criticism for all. And all are welcome to state their own opinion.
But except from flowers, poems, and facts of our everyday's reality isn't it high time to start
thinking about existing problems in society that overpass our little egos? Only by being active
parts of the society we can contribute our part, big or small and our lives are not wasted. I have
no intention at all to impose any penalty to anyone and I have no power to do it anyway. But I
want to see opinions and arguments. Not praises.
I don't claim to be someone. However, I would be very pleased, if something positive comes out
of this.
Monday July 9, 2007 - 01:33am (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
ok ..lets say a person made a big crime..he killed some one for a silly reason..the society
punished him by death...thats the maximum penalty..this society has no tolerance ..its not a nice
or a kind society..in such society the conditions of life are bad..that may push many people to
make many crimes..when we stop the death penalty we make a better conditions for life and for
people..this might make the crimes less ..but we should be careful ourselfs not to be cruel with
who are for death penalty and try to stop them by a nice way...like dialog and words.
Monday July 9, 2007 - 03:52am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
For those who don't doubt failure of the system and from the site:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/state/
for elements within the USA, I copy:
[Georgia Man Faces Execution Despite Doubts About His Guilt
Despite serious doubts that he murdered off-duty police officer Mark Allen MacPhail in 1989, Troy
Davis is facing execution in Georgia on July 17. Davis was convicted mainly on the basis of
eyewitness testimony. Since then, seven of the nine key witnesses against him have recanted or
changed their statements. Three of those witnesses have filed sworn statements alleging that
Sylvester "Red" Coles, another key prosecution witness, had confessed to killing MacPhail.
Davis' defense attorneys claim that the refusal of federal courts to consider their client's possible
innocence illustrates problems with the 1996 Anti-terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act
(AEDPA).
"Both [AEDPA] as well as the federal habeas process rely too heavily on DNA evidence to
exonerate the wrongfully convicted without safeguards for those who have non-DNA evidence
that proves their [innocence]," said Jason Ewart, an attorney representing Davis. AEDPA is a
federal law that requires inmates seeking federal relief to demonstrate that there was good
reason why new evidence of innocence was not introduced during state appeals. In Davis' case,
his defense attorneys have stated that the legal center representing him at the time of his state
appeals lost more than half its funding from Congress, making it impossible for them to represent
their client effectively.
Some members of Congress are rethinking the wisdom of AEDPA. "The rules regarding new
evidence are more restrictive than common sense says [they] should be," notes Representative
Artur Davis of Alabama. Representative Hank Johnson of Georgia agreed, stating that it might be
time for Congress to reexamine the legislation and its limitations. A number of organizations
working on Davis' behalf have called for a commutation of his sentence.
(The Hill, July 2, 2007)]
_______________________________________________________________________________
Thank you, Sanho.
_______________________________________________________________________________
From NCADP:
"Innocent and executed" we have the following:
1. Carlos De Luna, executed: December 7, 1989, State: Texas
2. Larry Griffin, executed: June 21, 1995, State: Missouri
3. Ruben Cantu, executed by lethal injection: August 24, 1993, State: Texas
4. Cameron Todd Willingham, executed by lethal injection: February 17, 2004, State: Texas
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think the only alternative to execution of a proven premeditated killer - lies in the future with
some further examination of deficient brain formation caused by genetic problems, or by accident
of medication, chemicals, etc.... during formation in the uterus, along with improved psychiatric
examinations, and treatments. With this science at some point in the future may lay an alternative
to execution, in genetic treatment. The remaining question is if there might be some dark element
that has taken over the individual - is this part of a severe desease? There is no cure at this point
- so elimating the individual from society - obviously only in a completely proven circumstance -
air tight - seems completely reasonable.
Sunday July 8, 2007 - 09:25pm (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
War is war - in defense of a country is unrelated to the individual killer. Unless the leader is
guided by sadistic intentions, of which Truman might be implicated in the involvement of the
prison camps after the war was finished. The atomic bomb makes complete sense if given the
circumstances of the day. Bombing Dresden was the senseless act, and the over 100,000
German prisoners that died after the war was over - through a three year period in prison camps
in France, and Germany was equally stupid, and arbitrary.
_______________________________________________________________________________
...and where will it lead, dear Brad? To the belief that someone is born criminal, due to a DNA
defect? Where can it be different from the eugenics theory?
_______________________________________________________________________________
No the problem is a big one - but certainly no worse than presently. I think the idea would be not
to euthanize - but to repaire the brain.
_______________________________________________________________________________
From Amnesty International and elements about executions around the world we have:
Countries with the most Confirmed Executions in 2006
1. China (1,010)
2. Iran (177)
3. Pakistan (82)
4. Iraq (65)
5. Sudan (65)
6. United States (53)
Most Executions in 2005
1. CHINA (At least 1,770 Executions)

2. IRAN (At least 94)
3. SAUDI ARABIA (At least 86)
4. UNITED STATES (60)
5. Pakistan (31)
6. Yemen (24)
7. Vietnam (21)
8. Jordan (11)
9. Mongolia (8)
10. Singapore (6)
_______________________________________________________________________________
There is no circumstance where no crime has been commited to intervene in the life of a child
with eugenics. The future might hold the possibility of medical intervention to assist in correcting
brain malformations in the new born, or in uterus. The more severe criminal has a lack of frontal
lobe fromation - proven by curreent medical examinations
_______________________________________________________________________________
There is no circumstance where no crime has been commited to intervene in the life of a child
with eugenics. The future might hold the possibility of medical intervention to assist in correcting
brain malformations in the new born, or in uterus. The more severe criminal has a lack of frontal
lobe fromation - proven by curreent medical examinations
_______________________________________________________________________________
Then people like me will be obliged sooner or later to a lobotomy LOL
_______________________________________________________________________________
For if you want to know, my mind is enough perverted to think of many ways about how to kill.
The difference is that I don't kill, because of my education and choice
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think there are always mistakes, as well as curruption that are possible. As in many events that
take place in daily life that might cause death - defective cars, defective bridge, etc.... I do think
there is a huge difference between what is the motivation and reason for the death penalty in
China, versus the United States. I have no claim that mistakes have not taken place in the U.S. -
but these have been corrected usually before the death sentence, and if not they are ectrememly
rare. These have been taken out of context by political opponents of the death penality to make a
public outcry. I think there are always going to be mistakes though - there is no safegaurd from
our best intentions.
_______________________________________________________________________________

You probably have all your brain functions Eleni - and if not - you should be an example of how to
fix the situation.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think the person with the brain abnormality cannot control the urge to violence- and it might be
mixed with some thirst that needs to be quinched - an addiction to killing / violence. Perhaps
there are evel spirits that enter the deseased mind / persona - that would be the primitive beleif -
perhaps not so primitive?
_______________________________________________________________________________
hmmm... interesting. So the problem might be solved one day, due to the biologists and some
voodoo...
And till then? We will continue executing? And the fact that maybe in USA mistakes can be less
brings the innocent who were executed back to life?
And what is this obsession with China? Will it be of my fault to think that the problem here lies on
a superpower game and not on death penalty itself and the statistics are simply convenient?
Read reports of the Amnesty International. People who are sentenced to death are mostly black
or immigrants or very poor, who cannot afford an attorney.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ding Ding!! coffee and Biscuit every body ??!! :D
Sunday July 8, 2007 - 07:15pm (PDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
I have read the statistics already - and yes there are obvious problems with someone able to hire
a good and expensive attorney - look at O.J. Simpson. But the larger numbers match the crimes
commited - in other words the real crime might be exposure to chemicals, etc.... in the uterus, and
drugs during pregnancy, as well as an envirement that breeds violence - inner city slums. SO that
someone on the border line with violent tendencies - frontal lobe malformation may carry out
addictive violence to a higher degree than a similar person growing up ina wealthy envirement.
But the statistics unfortuneately are largely correct correlating race with crime when veiwing who
is making the crimes, and killings. This has less to do with crime that envirement I think. But it is a
mistake to say let the criminals out of prison because there is a hiogher percentage of one race in
the prison than another. That a little too policically correct for my stomach.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Hi there Darya! Sounds wonderful - I will take a biscut and Chai tee, - Thanks!!!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Brad, this sounds to my ears spookier than a Dr. Mengele case. If this is not eugenics then
we should all redefine all meanings again!
Thanks for the biscuits, Darya. Executions with no snacks have no fun at all.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I have to say this does get aa bit dreary - I havn't lived in a slum area since my Academy of Art
days in Philadelphia. It was a bit of an eye opener to the potential violence in society. It's quite
complicated - the remedy. But I think once the line is crossed into seriously demented killing -
then there is no more humane solution that to put down like a rabid animal the person with the
incurable desease that threatens all society, even fellow prisoners.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ergo, where is the objection, when I was saying that to eliminate criminality, we have to fix the
society?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Hello there!!
Some walnuts Macaroon biscuits for Lovely Eleni
...Biscuits and Chai tee for dear Brad..
Thank You and Hope you enjoy..
_______________________________________________________________________________
I remember the book and a movie which both had been translated from Russia to Farsi , the
writer was a scientist name Makarenkov , he practically transformed some dangerous criminals to
a real caring and even heroic individuals in real life in Union soviet , I was in high school when I
saw the movie!!
Unfortunately I don’t remember the name of the movie or the book and because they were
translated, I had no success to search it!
But I mean :
He successfully proved that every human being has a positive response to the trust, kindness
and humanitarian relationship and education and work to make or grow some thing!! even if they
are criminals!!
_______________________________________________________________________________
It seems interesting, Darya. Looking forward for more references.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 145, Gerry:
Then who is to be entrusted to 'fix' society? I believe that we are all born with the seeds of evil
within us. Some people develop these more than others...hence the criminal mind with its lack of
conscience - 'psycopath'. But, we are all capable of killing, given the right circumstances. Ergo -
who judges whom? Who is 'qualified' to judge? Geraldine Fitzgerald.
Monday July 9, 2007 - 01:15pm (EST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 146, Gerry:
For the record: I am (theoretically) AGAINST the death penalty.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 147, Cactusflinthead:

well, i guess i better weigh in.
I live in Texas. Our executioner has a fast lane. I do not like it one whit. It is revenge. It is a blood
debt that some part of society demands.
It is cheaper to send a person to Harvard than to kill them.
It is a sad symptom of a sick world.
I used to think that for certain crimes it is permissible or even good. It serves no purpose other
than to fulfill the desire for revenge.
I can honestly say that I am against the death penalty now. It serves no one well.
Sunday July 8, 2007 - 11:00pm (CDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Theoritically noone is to be entrusted to "fix society", Gerry.

But a good start would be to make a meticulous research on murder cases with numbers, names,
motivation of the murderers, conditions of their living, education level, statistics on economics and
so on. If nothing more, we will know what pushes to crime, apart from psychopathogenic factors.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think the guillotine is the best means to effectively remove criminals. Btw…I noticed some
strange views about the death penalty being unethical.."nobody has the right to take another life",
"Death penalty itself is a 'crime'" etc. Are countries that impose it in fact lawless? Isnt law
something that people democratically decide upon?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Is it really something that people democratically decide upon? In Iran, China, Iraq, Pakistan,
Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, Jordan?
Even in the USA? Which in the last case is the percentage of people who vote?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 151, Lily:
Well, I am against death penalty because no one has the right to remove the life of another
person. It is not the point if this is unethical, or if the countries that impose death penalty are
lawless, or whatever. The point is what are the criteria to decide who has the right to leave and
who is to die...Of course there are assasins, people who rape children, all sort of anomalities and
malicious human beings...Creatures that do not belong to society... So, just remove them from
there and give them the "freedom" to "think" and come nearer to God...Of course the most
probable is to come nearer to the devil...lol, however no one can play God and decide about their
life and death...
Monday July 9, 2007 - 12:25pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 152, Gerry:
Much research HAS been done on murder cases, Eleni. A hobby of mine is reading factual
murder scenarios, as well as fiction. Noone has arrived at a concrete cause as to why this one
kills and this one does not. As for Democracy.....in a lot of cases it is a fable!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Saving innocent lives by executing a murderer, seems a good excuse for playing God; IF you
believe in a God at all, and if you do, God probably agrees. But here's what science says:
• Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by

professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per
execution at three, five and 14).
• The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years
following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.
• Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from
time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an
Emory University professor. (Fox news)
Monday July 9, 2007 - 12:00pm (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 154, ***MARIA***:
WELL ,THERE IS A LOT OF CONTROVERSY REGARDING SUCH ISSUE .I VOTED "FOR

,ONLY IN SOME CASES " AND I AM NOT ASHAMED TO SUPPORT MY POINT OF VIEW
.BRUTAL PEOPLE WHO KILL INNOCENT CHILDREN SHOULD NOT LIVE !! THOSE WHO
TAKE LIVES IN GENERAL DO NOT DESERVE TO LIVE .WHY LIVE IF THEY HAVE
DEPRIVED OTHERS OF THEIR RIGHT TO EXIST ??? WHY LIVE IF THEY HAVE RAPED AND
KILLED ?? AND I AM NOT ASHAMED TO SAY THAT I COULD EASILY WATCH THE
EXECUTION OF SUCH PEOPLE .I DON'T KNOW WHETHER U WILL THINK I AM VICIOUS.I
AM NOT .I AM JUST .IF ONE CONSIDERS IT JUST TO KILL ,WHY SHOULD I CONSIDER IT
UNJUST TO HAVE THEM EXECUTED ??? YES ,JUDGES HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE
WHETHER ONE SHOULD DIE ,AS THIS PERSON HAS DECIDED THAT HIS VICTIM SHOULD
DIE !!!

_______________________________________________________________________________
Why do you recall Hitler, Mousolini, Franco, Metaxas, Sadam and the rest of dictators on this
blog? Because they killed a LOT of people, correct? Do you think that people in their countries
were uneducated? I' m simply asking because you claimed that educating people WILL reduce
mass murderers like the above mentioned, thus making death penalty not to be needed any
more. I honestly say that I am not aware if Germans, Italians, Spanish, Greeks, Iraquies and so
on, are educated enough so their nations DO NOT PRODUCE mass murderers. In fact in most of
these cases taking their one and only life is NOT enough for the grief and the pain they caused. I
don't consider myself as the most evenhanded man and I didn't have those in mind when I wrote
for pederasty. I strongly believe that the judgment for criminals of this caliber is beyond my/your
opinion. Beyond one nation's judgement. I am talking for the penalty for single criminals. Like the
one who killed his son (or daughter) a few years ago and came on the TV begging for help to finf
the missing child!!!. BTW, he was found hung in his cell a few days after his arrest.
I am talking for one father who stopped the bus carrying the murderer of his son and shot him
before the eyes of the police men. BTW He was found innocent by the jury.
Finally my initial opinion remains.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 156, Julia:
Matthijs, what about Asodorps? For those who don't know about these things, they are
communities where the mad and bad, or just plain lousy, noisy neighbours are isolated. While I
don't agree with isolating the already marginalised, it seems a tad more humane (just a tad) than
execution.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 157, dorudor d:
Well, in my opinion, it’s better if a point of view on this issue is made without any emotional
involvement.
There was nothing more justified for the poor Russian peasants in 1917 than to execute the Tsar
and his entire family, children and all.
There was only normal that French revolutionaries execute the symbol of royalty and after that,
for French aristocrats to execute the criminals that slaughtered their families.
With a proper media support, almost anyone can be presented in the most satanic way, at least
for a short time, usually sufficient to decide his extermination.
Nevertheless, any brutal and disputable decision tends to polarize the public opinion, and, in
time, Saddam, Miloshevich, Hitler or Mussolini can appear as heroes to an important part of
population.
Hatred germinates hatred, execution germinates revenge, and in the end it only disturbs the
development of a society.
The only weapon against fanatics, blood thirsty mobs, vulgarity and decadence is education; the
only valid goal is to increase general welfare.
Even if we talk about proven crimes, death penalty doesn’t reduce criminality – an animal knows
no fear – education does!
And the last argument – let’s admit a criminal is useless to the society, and can be exterminated.
Just as useless to the society are many other categories – people with severe disabilities, very
old persons, even addicted bloggers ! ϑ
Do we exterminate them all ?
_______________________________________________________________________________
@Dorud The death penalty does reduce criminality according to scientific research. A large study
by Emory University researchers in 2001, which looked at murder rates in 3,000 counties, found
that “murder rates declined in counties where capital punishment was imposed” and that “a
statistical formula suggested that each execution saved the lives of 18 potential victims.”
@Julia I wouldnt mind if e.g. George Bush or Balkenende were to decide to zap away those
asodorps from the face of the earth. Surely you don't think (low)life is Holy?!?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Permit me to interfere again. I find quite direct and honest the point of view to execute the
monster, Maria. Your opinion is sincere and clear and sometimes I feel like that too. But again
either we evaluate human life or not.
Stern, when we are talking about Muslim countries we have to remember that basic human rights
do not exist. They have a whole regulation system formulated on Koran on how men should beat
their wives. They are executed for adultery in the 21st century. So, of what kind of education are
we talking about here?
Doru, I totally agree with you.
Matthjis, and how can you explain the fact that in Canada, where death penalty is abolished
criminality is less?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 160, Julia:
Holy is not a word in my vocabulary. I agree asodorps should be zapped, as should overcrowded
prisons, new prisons, archaic notions, the Bible, slow-moving trains, television and electricity bills.
_______________________________________________________________________________

And talking again about mass killers, dear stern - like Hitler, Mussolini, Franco etc... we also have
to remember that they appeared on the political scene as the saviors. They clearly manipulated
the public opinion.
_______________________________________________________________________________
@Alien, Simple, Canada has low crime rates, that is indeed a fact. Here's another fact, if they are
to impose the death penalty there, crime rates will be even lower ;)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Matthijs AFTER the abolition of the death penalty the crime rate reduced in Canada.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 164, dorudor d:
Then again, Matt, let me counterquote :

States Without the Death Penalty Have Better Record on Homicide Rates
A new survey by the New York Times found that states without the death penalty have lower
homicide rates than states with the death penalty. The Times reports that ten of the twelve states
without the death penalty have homicide rates below the national average, whereas half of the
states with the death penalty have homicide rates above ... so on ! Statistics seem very relative
as an argument.
_______________________________________________________________________________
hmmm... and shall we now discuss the whole subject based on the homicide rates in relation to
executions?
IF there is any god anywhere... life is not only numbers!
_______________________________________________________________________________
"States Without the Death Penalty Have Better Record on Homicide Rates" and yet the
conclusion is drawn that states With the Death Penalty have higher homicide rates? Anyway, I
agree with you about such statistics..also in the case of Canada. Canada saw a significant
increase in gun control in the 90s; that explains the crime rate reduction there. If canada hadnt
abolished capital punishment, it would be a very peaceful country today.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Okay, though I hate to repeat myself, I must maybe say again, that the key to the whole subject
can be found in politics.
_______________________________________________________________________________
The key? Is this a riddle or a typicall politician's comment. You can say it over and over again and
still nobody would understand you. What you say is basically nothing, zip, nada. Kindly just give
that key. It can be found you say; in order to say something like that, you must have found it
yourself, so please dont beat about the bush!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Tangible and concrete:
If we talk about authoritarian countries, like China: The whole system has to be reformed.
For Muslim countries: when are we going to understand that religions poison the minds?
For USA: where is the social system equal and accessible to ALL?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Execution as a means of delivering justice? Are you guys saying that the justice system should
commit the same crime (murder) to punish murder? Isn't this what we call an oximoron? I do
understand your feelings, such as those expressed by my dear friend Maria, but I remain firm in
being against the death penalty. Please, read "The Last Day of a Condemned Man" by Victor
Hugo and check your feelings again.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Konstantijn, I don't understand why you remaim firm against the death penalty. Much has
changed since Hugo's time..If you call capital punishment "'murder' because of murder", than it is
most certainly no oxymoron, unless 1 = 1 is also an oxymoron...
_______________________________________________________________________________
Indeed, dear Matthijs. Much has changed. To the point of confusing fundamental truths.
And from all the colours that the palette of the modern painters has, we cannot anymore
distinguish what is black and what is white.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 173, georgina:
Hi Eleni, sorry I did not see the video clips because I'm a little sensitive..Also I am having really
mixed feelings about this topic..When I ask myself this question death penalty or no death
penalty, the first I answer I get is, that I could never accept the death penalty as a punishment for
any crime..and then I think on the other side as well, for example, if Hitler did not commit suicide
and he was caught alive, did he not deserve the death penalty?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ok, again Hitler. And what about Truman? The results from the radiation in Japan from the
bombs have still been strong in the younger generations. Wasn't Truman a murderer? Shouldn't
we execute him too?
_______________________________________________________________________________
lol! Why not..let's execute Truman posthumously. I rest my case for a quick bite, meanwhile
wondering why the ProLifers are apperantly unable to think more rationally about life. Bon appetit.
Have a good vegetarian meal. Or ask yourself the question why a cow would be less Holy than
the average bloodthirsty criminal - both are mammals with equal brain power.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ok, Matthijs. Let's be rational. Why do we also keep the handicapped, the unemployed and the
pensionists in life? They consumme a great part of the national capital too.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And just for the record: I am not a vegeterian; it doesn't appeal to me anymore.
To kill out of necessity to eat, I can understand it, and I have nothing wrong against it. To kill for
fun, no.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 178, Julia:
Konstatinos, that is what I said from the start: I don't know what lesson is to be taught/message to
be sent by killing to show killing is wrong.
Matthijske, whether times have changed since Hugo is irrelevant, as there are such things as
universal themes and human emotions that cannot change.
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 12:19am (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
The atomic bomb was used since the Japanese defense plan was to resist surrender and trap the
large land forces expected from the invading U.S. forces in a trap once they entered Japan. In
order to avoid even larger casualties in great numbers of U.S. forces the atomic bombs were
released on the two Japanese cities. This was a war carried out by Japan invading the U.S. and
costing huge numbers of lost life during the years of defending against Japanese aggression. It's
was a good plan that saved senseless death of U.S. forces, and brought Japan to it's knees for
surrender. It should have never started the war if it was unprepared for it's possible
repercussions. This is not a crime as far as I am concerned - it's war - war is brutal - you win or
lose based on advantage. The only large Allied crimes I am aware of are the senseless fire
bombings of Dresden, which had no stratigic storage, factories, or forces - the fire bombings
which were carried out in revenge by British forces, and later the internment camps that lasted for
three to five years after the war ended where hundreds of thousands of Germans died. The
radiation after the war in Japan is horrible but the use of the atomic bombs is still justified.
Monday July 9, 2007 - 06:22pm (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________

I do have serious doubts about the social aspects being the domenent cause of demented
premedicated killing, since there are a large number of examples of middle class, and upper class
/ wealthy individuals that carried out serial, as well as singular demented killings. A number of
these individuals were extremely intelligent, and highly educated. The common demoninater
between these well to do killers and the poor killers are genetic, and psychiatric problems, as well
as frontal lobe brain malformations.
_______________________________________________________________________________
We know why the atomic bombs were used for. As an argument it was not for discussing history,
but to show that the obvious was not the only guilty
_______________________________________________________________________________
OK, I will be rational (sorry about that hahaha) and I'm also no vegetarian. I don't know about
those groups of people :D They are not necessarily lawless are they?
Mots, why dont human emotions change?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Hmmm...here we come again... All highly intelligent people or members of MENSA are suspicious
and potential murderers; is that the point?
So, the killers coming from the lower classes need some education and the others biologists to
interfere on the gene?
What will it be next? Douglas Adams' revelation in the "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" that
the meaning of life is 43? Something more relevant?
Meanwhile we kill the criminals? Yes? Or not?
And what about the death penalty? Practically and apart from Hitler or Mao or Truman or Saddam
or anybody: What shall we do with the child abuser? The rapist? The serial killer? We execute
him or not? What shall we do in the countries where human rights are non-existent? In Uganda
some years ago, where a muslim woman was risking stoning to death because she was found
pregnant (from rape), but the society condemned her because she was a woman? What shall we
do in Europe, where the penalty for life means maximum 15 years imprisonment? And finally are
we legalized to execute or not? If yes, in which cases? If not, shall we reform the law system in
favour of the human being? Does the abolition of the death penalty mean necassarily and more
humanitarian punishment?
Will it ever exist in USA a social system accessible to all to avoid 1. crime 2. injustice?
What shall we do with the mass killers? Are countries legalized to invade other countries under
the excuse of saving them?
And finally: Even if I feel that I have to answer to questions of Matthijs, Haraldur and Gerry to
defend my ideology, to be frank they puzzled me very much.
_______________________________________________________________________________
To report that on the schedule for the upcoming executions in 2007 within USA we have:
July
week of the
9th SD Elijah Page
10 TX Rolando Ruiz
10 OH Clarence Carter - Temporary Stay
12 PA Miguel Rios - Stay Likely
16 VA Paul Warner Powell - Stay Likely
17 GA Troy Anthony Davis
24 TX Lonnie Johnson
26 AL Darrell Grayson
August
7 PA James T. Williams - Stay Likely
15 TX Kenneth Parr
16 TN Leonard Young - Stay Likely
21 OK Frank Duane Welch
22 TX Johnny Conner
23 AL Luther Jerome Williams
28 TX Daroyce Mosley
29 TX John Joe Amador
30 TX Kenneth Foster
September
5 TX Tony Roach
12 TN Daryl Holton
13 TX Joseph Lave
18 OH John Spirko
20 TX Clifford Kimmel
25 TX Michael Richards
26 TN Jerome Harbison
27 TX Carlton Turner
27 AL Tommy Arthur
October
3 TX Heliberto Chi
17 VA Christopher Scott Emmett
18 OH Romell Broom
24 TN Michael Joe Boyd
December
12 TN Pervis Payne
_______________________________________________________________________________
Busy program huh?

_______________________________________________________________________________
I don't think that the invasion of Iraq is easily discussed here, but basically what started is a
situation of proxy war - China is funding intelligence to Middle East countries, as well as terrorist
organizations to stifle the U.S. - put it in a quagmire - while still maintaining trade. In the interum is
realignment with Russian, Chinese, third world axis interests in oil and other short supply
minerals and resources from Africa, Asia, and South America. The terrorists organizations have
little to do with social disparity and more to do with religious, and military expansion. The
expected war is really only just starting. There is no cure for the proven serial killer / singular killer
of intentional perverted killing. So for the safety of society until there is a practical, workable, and
provable rehabilitation for the killer - the logical solution is the elimination by death of the person
from society - once an airtight proven guilt is had. All these other religious perspectives of guilt for
being raped, or guilt for consensual sex out of marriage is a perversion of justice - basically there
is a society of animals with no logical reasoning, or persoanl rights. The social system in the U.S.
dovetailed even more with Gatt, and NAFTA - the eventual pay scale arriving to parity with 2nd.
world countries for the less educated as time moves forward. Also the division of pay difference
increases between the wealthy, and the middle class, as well as the poor as the world
interconnection moves forward. Hopefully there is some rhyme or reason to the long term plan
beyond the benifits for the upper 2%, and the upper 20%. I think the resourses that are expected
to be in deficit by 2012 - and may bode for a grab by countries for resources, unless there is a
workable new technology base for energy. This is actually an all around possibly fruitfull time to
change from an industrial time period to a technology / biology period. There might be more
possibilities for social benefits for larger society if the period is steered correctly.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And the already executed
DATE NUMBER
SINCE 1976 STATE NAME AGE RACE VICTIM RACE METHOD
1/09/07 1058 OK Corey Hamilton 38 Black 4/W Lethal Injection
1/10/07 1059 TX Carlos Granados 36 Latino 1/L Lethal Injection
1/17/07 1060 TX Jonathan Moore 33 White 1/L Lethal Injection
1/30/07 1061 TX Christopher Swift* 31 White 2/W Lethal Injection
2/7/07 1062 TX James Jackson 47 Black 3/B Lethal Injection
2/22/07 1063 TX Newton Burton Anderson 30 White 2/W Lethal Injection
2/27/07 1064 TX Donald Miller 44 White 2/W Lethal Injection
3/06/07 1065 TX Robert Perez 48 Latino 2/L Lethal Injection
3/07/07 1066 TX Joseph Nichols 45 Black 1/W Lethal Injection
3/20/07 1067 TX Charles Nealy 42 Black 1/A Lethal Injection
3/28/07 1068 TX Vincent Gutierrez 28 Latino 1/L Lethal Injection
3/29/07 1069 TX Roy Lee Pippin 51 White 2/L Lethal Injection
4/11/07 1070 TX James Lee Clark 38 White 1/W Lethal Injection
4/24/07 1071 OH James Filiaggi 41 White 1/W Lethal Injection
4/26/07 1072 TX Ryan Dickson 30 White 2/W Lethal Injection
5/3/07 1073 AL Aaron Lee Jones 55 Black 2/W Lethal Injection
5/4/07 1074 IN David Woods 42 White L Lethal Injection
5/9/07 1075 TN Philip Workman 53 White W Lethal Injection
5/16/07 1076 TX Charles Edward Smith 41 White W Lethal Injection
5/22/07 1077 AZ Robert Charles Comer* 50 White W Lethal Injection
5/24/07 1078 OH Christopher Newton* 37 White W Lethal Injection
6/6/07 1079 TX Michael Griffith 56 White W Lethal Injection
6/15/07 1080 IN Michael Lambert 36 White W Lethal Injection
6/20/07 1081 TX Lionell Rodriguez 36 Latino A Lethal Injection
6/21/07 1082 TX Gilberto Reyes 33 Latino L Lethal Injection
6/22/07 1083 SC Calvin Shuler 40 Black W Lethal Injection
6/26/07 1084 OK Jimmy Dale Brand 49 White W Lethal Injection
6/26/07 1085 TX Patrick Knight 39 White 2W Lethal Injection
6/26/07 1086 GA John Hightower 63 Black 3B Lethal Injection
_______________________________________________________________________________
Now, I can understand you much better, dear Brad.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Well it looks as though the killers got caught and met their justice - it seems a little gruesome - but
nessesary
_______________________________________________________________________________
And here we come to 2 types of murder. The illegal which should be punished and the "legal"
which is justice... No alternative? So the system is perfect. Nothing has to be done in the New
World... The conditions, which lead to the crime, play no role at all?
_______________________________________________________________________________
And again for the record in USA:
Even though blacks and whites are murder victims in nearly equal numbers of crimes, 80% of
people executed since the death penalty was reinstated have been executed for murders
involving white victims.
More than 20% of black defendants who have been executed were convicted by all-white juries.
_______________________________________________________________________________
On DNA evidence, the scientific point of view:
Scientific Experts Say DNA Evidence Not "Infalible"

Scientists who are skeptical of Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney's claim that DNA is
"infallible" evidence in a death penalty case have voiced concern about the assumption, noting
that there is no way to avoid all possible instances of human error and that the evidence does not
always prove a person's guilt or innocence. Theodore D. Kessis is the founder of Applied DNA
Resources, based in Columbus, Ohio, and a faculty member at the John Hopkins School of
Public Health in Baltimore. He provides expert testimony and analysis to the legal community,
including reviews of protocols used by labs that analyze DNA evidence, and notes, "[L]ike
anything that involves humans, there is always the possibility of error in DNA testing. I would not
go so far as to say that DNA is foolproof. The spectrum of a DNA test may range from foolproof to
something's wrong here. DNA testing is a tool, and how that tool is used in a criminal trial may
depend upon what you are trying to prove. Don't misunderstand me, DNA is an invaluable tool.
But in and of itself, DNA cannot tell you who committed a crime." Dean Wideman, a forensic
scientist from Texas, echoed Kessis's concerns and noted that DNA evidence has its limitations.
"DNA evidence has been used to acquit as often as convict... What it doesn't tell us is the stuff
that lawyers are good at using - it doesn't tell us whether semen left is the result of rape or
consensual sex. It doesn't tell us what time a person was at a scene. It does not tell us why a
person was at a scene... For all we hear about DNA evidence, oftentimes it is not going to move a
case in one direction or another," he said. (Cape Cod Times, May 6, 2004)
_______________________________________________________________________________
.... and the point? Better to kill an innocent to be on the safe side?
_______________________________________________________________________________
It's pity that we don't have a Chinese or a muslim here. It will appear as if my only target is USA
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think that DNA is not usually thought of as the only evidence - why have a jury and lawyers if
only DNA is needed? As to the statistics on the jury of whites, and the percentage of blacks in
prison, or whites in prison - no system is perfect - but I think one has to be carefull here. There
are quite a few poorly conducted reviews on statistics aiming to a social statement outcome
before the research is started - it's called politically correct research. As far as crime goes the
more methodical research professionally conducted only proves some racial groups conduct
more crime percentage than others. That in itself does not explain why, but the results are not
proveable that the police force is predetermined as rascist, or the justice system - only that
certain groups have higher crime rates. I think one could go into this and spend enourmous
research as to why - but that dosn't change who. I think it is a mistake to say that because there
are more people with green eys that do something, than people with brown eyes we therefore
need to find people with brown eyes to punish.
_______________________________________________________________________________
All I can say is I am glad I am not Chinese - I would probably have become a member of Falon
Gong - and would be in a prison used as a live prison medical patient for extracting orgaans,
body parts - eyes, kidneys, heeart, skin, until there is nothting left, and then killed and incinerated
- as are hundreds of thouseands Falun Gong members in China - for no other reason that being a
member of the budhist / tai chi type group
_______________________________________________________________________________
I will agree that some statistics aim to show something.

I can also agree that some groups conduct more crime than others. But it is a known secret that
there are still ghettos in USA. Extreme poverty, unequal opportunities to education, employment
and security. Conditions which lead with mathematical precision to illegal activities sooner or
later.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Yes, of course - extremely frustrating, and disgusting conditions in a powerful nation. But the
conditions are wonderful like a king would live compared to a third world ghetto - so why are there
some third world countries with a small percentage of crime in the ghetto?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Our question is quantitive? Who among the marginalized of the globe lives better? We have to
defend our country in such a way to the point of keeping ignoring the basic?
I am Greek and very patriotic, and the fact that I am doesn't mean that I won't stigmatize
corruption in my country.
If we have to deal with the reasons which lead to crime, tell me frankly and directly: What is
better? To cure the disease or meditate on death? To prevent crime or to execute the guilty?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Yes, I agree with you Eleni! I think the only situation where the death penalty makes sence is the
very infrequent crime of perverted premeditated killing. I see a medical genetic defect combined
with addictive animalistic crime of a killer - or I should say beyond animalistic, since almost no
animal kills in perversion. There are other indications of some darker element in play with the
genetic malformation combined with the perverted addiction of the premeditated killer. These
darker indications are unproveable so best left out of the equation. But I see no other
circumstance that would merit the death penality than this type of condition of a person combined
with an airtight proven crime of the premeditated perverted murder.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Socio-economical conditions are so unimportant???? Everything lies on the gene????????

All the executed had frontal lobe brain malformations???????
Brad, please, let's be serious!!!!
_______________________________________________________________________________
All other crime has no place for the death penality. And prison time to keep the dangerous away
from the rest of society makes sense while examing the possibilty of rehabilatation. Also the
change in society to address the impetus toward crime. But I would argue that some of this is also
the society at large - the lack of purpose, greed, and place of honor for the wealthy regardeless of
what they did to become wealthy. This breeds lust for the desire to have more than one can
experience at any point, and the outcome is a disturbed society. It also works very well to
maintaine control over the populace, and generate profit for the few.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Fine!!!!
We execute only the ones with the frontal lobe brain malformations! Among them some
Quasimodos too! The subarachnoid hemorrhage from a ruptured aneurysm can be our indicator
to find the beast!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Well I think someone has to make a horrendous premeditated perverted crime of a killing first.......
otherwise we are talking about something unacceptable.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think there is some history of a physical brain predisposition coinciding with a disturbed nature
and action aligning together.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 206, Gerry:
WHO has the right to judge WHOM!!! Ok, I'll line up for the frontal lobotomy....
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 04:05pm (EST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 207, Gerry:
Why not treat the accused to a choice....suicide, of a Kafkaesque existence...no identity, no legal
rights....unil they tire of it?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 208, Gerry:
And then again...WHO is qualified to judge...WHO is qualified to execute that judgement?
_______________________________________________________________________________

Who? According to some, we clone dr. Mengele.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Friends:
I believe that the question has been answered on a legal basis, on a religious basis, on ... . The
words by which I have lived all my lifee are that "I disagree with some of you but I am prepared to
do anything to protect your right to disagree with me".
I can see that we have touched on another major issue without exploring it. Do we have the right
to take somebody's life (this being by death penalty imposition, war declaration, terrorist acts,
revenge killings, sound economic management, etc. ...). I believe that we do not! If our only form
of persuation or correction is by killing somebody, then there is something very wrong with our
society. It is not the justification that exhaunerates the act, it is the act that is to be condemned. I
remain a strong believer of my conviction that the death penalty should be abolished. I respect
your opposing views and I appreciate those who agree with me.
Once again, thank you Eleni for creating this wonderful forum. I appreciate your friendship more
and more every day.
Best regards,
Konstantinos
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 10:00am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ladies and Gentlemen.
Personally, clearly and honestly, I haven't the slightest doubt that death penalty should be
abolished considering it as an auto-reversible argument of justice.
For Europe, where no death penalty exists, my only moral problem is why we should put the legal
rights of the criminals above the legal rights of those who haven't committed a crime. Any answer
here?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 212, Haraldur J: Define "criminal" Brad! By your statement "we criminals" have brain
deficiency, what is the next step? gene modification of shoplifters?, of those who nick towels from
hotels?, For speeding? :P:P

_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 213, Julia:
Funny, Sarkozy used the genetic indisposition of criminals as a campaign argument....but who
knows for what purpose? We just know that Sarko acts/acted like a police state is the ideal. When
he was Interior Minister, instead of having 2 or 3 policemen investigate a (minor) problem, there
were now 8 or 9. I won't even start in on the police raids and arrests in front of schools, of illegal
immigrants.....
_______________________________________________________________________________
Julia....*sigh*
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 215, Fleur:
Κανονικά θα έπρεπε ως τώρα να έχουμε σκοτώσει: τις καπνοβιομηχανίες, τους εμπόρους

ναρκωτικών,τους εμπρηστές,και κυρίως μα κυρίως αυτούς που το παίζουν εξουσία -κρατική ή
εκκλησιαστική-και έχουν σκοτώσει στο όνομα τις προόδου,της ειρήνης και του προσυλητισμού
χιλιάδες αθώες ψυχές. Πώς συνδυάζεται άραγε η επιβολή της ειρήνης με τον πόλεμο κύριε
Μπους; Πώς πιστοί μου χριστιανοί στο όνομα του Θεού εξαφανίσατε ολόκληρους πολιτισμούς;
Ακόμα και ο θάνατος δεν σταματά τον θάνατο. Στην πραγματικότητα είμαστε μια κοινωνία που
επιβιώνει,αναπτύσσεται και επεκτείνεται μέσω του θανάτου....και της επιβολής αυτού...εκούσια ή
ακούσια. Το τι διακοσμητικό όνομα θα του δώσουμε μας πειράζει τώρα; Ας είναι λοιπόν θανατική
ποινή. Η πραγματικά όμως μεγάλη μας ποινή είναι η ζωή που ζούμε και το γεγονός ότι βλέπουμε
και βιώνουμε τέτοιου είδους γεγονότα....
Η ζωή μας τελικά είναι ο καθρέπτης του θανάτου.
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 01:32pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 216, Julia:
What did Fleur say? And what does your sigh mean, Eleni? Mots is feeling insufficient
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 12:48pm (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 217, Fleur:
We should have extincted ,under normal (! ha) conditions,till now: smoke industries,drug
dealers,brigadors and mainly and mostly those who are high ranked and play the game of
authority-political or religious one-and have killed in the name of progress,of peace and
procelytism millions of innoncent souls.How could ever peace's imposal be combined with war Mr
Bush? How my fervent Christians in the name of God you extincted whole civilizations? Even
death does not stop death. In reality, we are a society which survives, expands and is being
developed through death… and its imposal....volunterely or not. And we are thinking of what
name we will attribute to it? Let it be death penalty then, if this is today's word fad. Our most true
sentence though is the life we live and the fact we see and experience such events.
Our life is inevitably death's mirror.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 218, Fleur:
And do not try to convince me that God's presence has something to do with Mr Bush when i see
him on TV or newspapers crossing his fingers and pray BEFORE dropping his smartass bombs
on third world territories. God is surely not there. Religion is the enemy of true faith.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I agree with you, Julia. The sigh is because seeing how some people think makes me sad.
_______________________________________________________________________________
As I see, shocking evidence is not enough for some who vote in favour of death penalty. What
about this?
A condemned inmate asked prison officials to find another way to execute him as they struggled
to administer a lethal injection after an intravenous line failed, prison records show. "Can you just
give me something by mouth to end this?" convicted killer Joseph Clark asked during the 90-
minute delay, according to accounts written by members of the execution team and obtained by
The Associated Press. The May 2 execution was plagued with problems from the beginning,
when team members struggled for several minutes to find a vein. After inserting a shunt in Clark's
arm, the vein collapsed, leading Clark to push himself up and say, "It don't work." (5/12/06, ABC
News)
If you want more, I am at your disposition.
_______________________________________________________________________________

And this?
Death penalty opponents criticized the execution of a convicted murderer who took more than
half an hour to die and needed a rare second dose of lethal chemicals. Angel Nieves Diaz, 55,
convicted of murdering a Miami topless bar manager 27 years ago, appeared to grimace before
dying Wednesday, 34 minutes after the first dose. ... A spokesman for Floridians for Alternatives
to the Death Penalty, called Diaz's death a botched execution. "They had to execute him twice,"
Mark Elliot said. "If Floridians could witness the pain and the agony of the executed man's family,
they would end the death penalty." ... Moments before his execution, Diaz again denied killing.
(12/14/06, ABC News)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Or this?
SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- California's oldest death row inmate -- a 75-year-old who is
legally blind and nearly deaf -- is asking the U.S. Supreme Court to do something it has never
done before: block an execution because of the condemned man's advanced age and infirmity. ...
"The spectacle of Mr. Allen being wheeled into the death chamber, unable to walk and unable to
see those who have come to witness his execution, violates all standards of decency and would
amount to nothing more than the purposeless and needless imposition of pain and suffering
prohibited by the Eighth Amendment," said Annette Carnegie, one of Allen's attorneys. (1/13/06,
CNN.com)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Clap Christians! And then go to the church and pray for the victims and the salvation of the soul
of the murderer!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Some of the future genetic research covers much of the same area as psychiatric intervention.
Already people walk around partially functional because of problems with physical abnormalities
of the brain, often chemical interactions are missing or out of balence. Gene therapy is the logical
next step to correct problems. People with a frontal lobe malformation have a lack of the abilty to
control violent behavoir. No amount of therapy will help the more extreme version of this
condition. Also other brain functions and abnormalities relate to psychotic violent behavoir. The
person addicted to acts of killing along with the brain abnormaliy in a more extreme case I think
would be possibly helped in the futire by gene therapy. If you have a problem with this, then you
should have a problem with psychiatry now as a field of research, and protest any psychiatric
professional being allowed to practice. As for religion, I don't have any interest in a religious
context here for the argument since it's a non provable point. I think all this is just common sence
and logical.
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 09:27am (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 225, from_anotherplanet: And the eugenics is provable, to guess?
_______________________________________________________________________________
I disagree about no care for life, - evidene shows otherwise. But the success of the death penality
or any penality stoping a crime is minimal. The question is what is the responsibility of the society
once a member is a danger to anyone even other prisoners.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And the eugenics is provable, to guess?
This is the only realistic question (in my opinion always), I have heard from you so far, dear Brad.
We are on a good path. Keep trying.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I agree with your viewpoint on the education, abd social change needed. There is also further
understanding of the physical reason of a disturbed state of the person, and the influence of this
state to an action. We are at a primitive stage of understanding all the factors. The danger is
always there with some strange person implimenting a new course of actions like genetic
research. But if we want to be most safe we should live like the most primitive people, and wait
for god to tell us what to do.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Βrad, read all Julia's comments. She is American too.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Meanwhile, as I give time for more thought, let us see the victim's position.
Their declaration is touching and I respect it strongly:
April 22 – 28, 2007 is National Crime Victims’ Rights Week. The theme for this year is “Victims’
Rights: Every Victim, Every Time.” As victims, and survivors, we strongly support efforts to ensure
that the needs of victims’ don’t fall through the cracks or fall prey to politics.
The death penalty does not serve victims’ families. It draws resources away from needed support
programs, law enforcement and crime prevention. And the trials and appeals endlessly re-open
wounds as they are beginning to heal, and it only creates more families who lose loved ones to
killing.
Alternatives to the death penalty provide the certainty and punishment that many families need
while keeping our communities safe. Critically, alternatives ensure attention is cast where it is
needed most – on the survivors – and not on sensational trials or suspects.
As murder victim family members we also share the same concerns as other Americans with the
death penalty. We are concerned about innocent people being sentenced to death, about racial
and economic disparities and about arbitrariness. But for us the stakes are higher because an
innocent person might be executed in a misguided attempt to give us justice. Losing one innocent
life to murder is one too many, the taking of another innocent life because of the first is beyond
comprehension.
Those who argue for the death penalty often claim to do so on behalf of us, the victims’ families.
They say it will give us “closure.” We don’t want the death penalty, and closure is a myth. Every
victim, every time needs help, understanding, resources, and support. We don’t need more killing.
Source: www. deathpenaltyinfo.org/
_______________________________________________________________________________
One can find unfortunate examples of a situation, action, staement, or policy for any of the
specific viewpoints in the real world dealing with the topics in your post. To make an argument
that physical, and chemical biological factors are unacceptable in the realm of issues discussed
here because some politician represents some foolish implimentation of the issues does not
really seem like a sound counterpoint. The problems are real anytime a new area of options
opens dealing with rights of an individual, as well as sanctity of life, and changing the course of
nature in the individual. One should be worried, and careful about what is done, and why, as well
as who does it, impliments the plan. Checks and balences are needed as in all events that are
made in a society, so that no single group or individual given decision power is free of review of
his actions. The topic seems scary I think because of real concerns, and history, but also
because of too many late night science fiction movies. To move forward as science understands
more, and is capable of attempting to correct physical problems is no different than the history of
the twentieth century up til now. I think there is a complicated mixture of biology of the person,
and the social fabric that paly into this issue of the most extreme crime. No one wants to
relinquish their rights against invasive action from government. So the question comes back to
where does the individual rights of the person outweigh the rights of the society.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I agree that closure is a silly concept, and punishment is arbitrary in this case, since the person
able to commit this crime is beyond changing behavoir because of society norms. As far as
resources, I think the cost of incarceration of the extreme cases of these types of prisoners is
enourmous over the lifetime of the prisoner. It's hard to imagine that the cost factor is less without
the death penalty. But to argue based on cost factors is a little strange to me - seems somewhat
less important than the larger issues. Of course it's horrible that a prisoner is wrongfully charged.
The life of someone is ruined though already by incarceration over a long period, and the length
of time to prove innocence equates to the same usually between the person that has lost further
appeals for a life sentence, or a death sentence. I personally would be rather dead - executed,
than wrongly spend the rest of my life in prison.
Tuesday July 10, 2007 - 12:11pm (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 233, Julia:
I can tell you, from unfortunately personal experience, that there is no closure in death. I will
never forgive the person who tried to kill me and my son, even though that person is dead. I find
no happiness in knowing he is dead, I'm far more concerned with rebuilding the lives we have. I
would hate to imagine our agressor rotting away the rest of his life in prison (and think he might
have killed himself in prison, just speculation), I'd rather this not have happened at all, but
knowing he is dead is no comfort.
_______________________________________________________________________________
In my opinion, the most reliable and human statement here is this of Julia. She doesn't speak
theoretically. To the answer of all who speak about violence against children and what the
reaction of the society should be.
_______________________________________________________________________________
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/index.html

_______________________________________________________________________________
Brad …
Let us see from the beginning what you are saying. I am just quoting you.
1. You are against death penalty apart from serial crime killers like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, MENGELE,
and though you are not so familiar with what a serial killer, or mass murderer thinks –you believe,
that science at some point in the future may lay an alternative to execution, in genetic treatment
to correct the frontal lobe brain malformations.
2. Though you remain against death penalty, unless there are frontal lobe brain malformations,
the executed prisoners were just got caught and met their justice - it seems a little gruesome - but
necessary.
3. For mass murder: The radiation after the war in Japan is horrible but the use of the atomic
bombs is still justified so was Truman, but you cannot stand the idea that Mao survived till old
age.
4. You are only in favour of the death penalty when there is DNA evidence equally supported by
clear evidence without doubt; however you think that DNA is not usually thought of as the only
evidence, that’s why there is a jury and lawyers.
5. There is no cure for the proven serial killer / singular killer of intentional perverted killing
theoretically, yet no crime has place for the death penalty.
6. There are extremely frustrating, and disgusting conditions in a powerful nation like America.
But the conditions are wonderful like a king would live compared to a third world ghetto.
7. Religious context in relation to the death penalty is not provable- but perhaps there are evil
spirits that enter the deceased mind / persona of the killer- and that would be the primitive belief -
perhaps not so primitive.
My additional note to No 6: But we don’t compare USA with the third world. We consider it as a
civilised country.
Would you like to reconsider about all contradictions here? I think that I am the only one who still
reads your comments. The others gave up long ago.
Either we speak to conclude somewhere or we just find pleasure hearing the sound of our voice.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I really have nothing to add. With my pleasure, thanks.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 238, DeSpErAdO:
oh thats a long way till i reached the space i can wfrite my opinion...
the funny thing was that i tried to read some comments to see where the discussion is going.....
but that was too much
so i'll write what i think about the question that was IN THE BLOG not in the comments...
first of all excution is considered the toughed penalty... however I think that is something of the
best things that criminal can have... to save him from pains and shames in his life (as an example
lets say SADDAM)
for me if i did something that make me have 20 years in jail... i would prefer excution (that is
criminal veiw.
so thats the major cause im against penalty of death.... many times its not enough to kill him....
keeping that criminal alive is killing him everyday.....
and plus.... i think nobody have the right to take somebody else' life ...
and ty dear koumpara for a such blog that can collect soooo many opinions in such critical
subject... i wish i'll have the time to read them all....
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 239, Julia:
Could we perhaps have closure of this discussion, sometime in the very near future? I stand by
my convictions, but am suddenly feeling very personally blue :(
_______________________________________________________________________________
You are welcome, Brad. I am very sorry, but I warned everyone since the very beginning, that I
am determined with this blog not to caress anybody's ears.
It might seem hard and rude, but we should sometimes speak things with their own name and cut
to the bone; especially when the subject is so serious!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 241, Julia: I did enjoy the determination of the participants in this blog and
congratulate you all, in a non-equanimitious way, for taking such time and effort - brava to Eleni
for introducing the subject. I think debate and mutual respect for other views are some elements
of real democracy.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Julia, thank you. The subject is too hot to finish here.
I need to say one thing from my part: even if one is a little bit puzzled about the subject I will be
very pleased.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Des, maybe this is the most heretic of all my blogs. The next thing I expect after this is my public
crucifixion. Thank you, from my heart.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I don't think I have stated such contradictions as you imply, you would find deeeper alarm by my
proceeding to fill in the gaps with what I previously stated. Your sumation of my statemnts is a
little messy here and there, so a little imnacurate. I think your argument is one founded on
emotion, it doesn't hold up well either. I have no answers here, I only intended to bring some
contradictions to the notions presented.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Sorry about the numerous keyboard typos (spelling) as well.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Of course they are from all your statements, dear Brad. I didn't claim that there was no
consequence in each blog. But if you see EVERYTHING you posted, you might see it too.
_______________________________________________________________________________
... and believe me, you gave me much homework to jump from one to another, when I was trying
to relate all your statements *wink*
_______________________________________________________________________________
Yes, I read the fragments pieced together, with a few typos, or addditions - I would have to re
read as you suggest. But no, I have no problem with my statements. I donn't see any
consequence other than I don't view the issue in the same light.
_______________________________________________________________________________
in the same light as your panel of friends
_______________________________________________________________________________
Anyway all to ones own.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I am against death penalty. The issue though has puzzled me a lot and I always like to see other
point of views. I have been sent by Haraldur many links about most extreme murder cases. I post
the links to further investigation and discussion:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3829075.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/74839.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1901571.ece
http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/bar-jonah.html
_______________________________________________________________________________
They have to do with paedophilia and they are all from Europe, apart from the last one (again
paedophilia and cannibalism) but the last one from the States.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And other questions having to do with the law system.

Why i.e. the murder of a policeman should count more than of any other common mortal?
And returning to the question I posted long ago, and still have no answers:
should we put the legal rights of the criminals above the legal rights of the ones who haven't
committed a crime?
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 12:23am (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 254,Konstantinos:
Dear Eleni: The murder of a policeman is as bad as the murder of any citizen. In answer to your
question, I would like to state that I belive in equal rights for all. Criminals should not have more
or less rights than any other citizen. Filika, Konstantinos
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 09:02am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
those comments were pretty interesting.. (might not need a new blog for quite a while now)
and yea, why is the death of a policeman more important??
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 02:18pm (BDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
(and you can stop reposting your quote :P )
_______________________________________________________________________________

hahaha, neetish... but I can't for the time being find a quote from another one who can agree so
much with me. LOL
_______________________________________________________________________________
(for the records: “There are two ways to be moral. The easy way is to become a believer. The
difficult way is to be a thinker; it demands some brains too”- me)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Damn typos!!! I need more coffee!!! :-))
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 11:53am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
lol..
_______________________________________________________________________________
I think assaults on the police force are shocking as the police are there to maintain the rule of law.
They try to protect lives and if they are killed on duty, there's nobody to protect the community. It's
only fair to punish assault on law enforcement more severely.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ok, but the essence remains one: life is life. And even if we respect the symbol, we should also
think that lots of policemen in all countries are corrupted.
Another question: The pederast is more criminal than the one who chops adults in pieces?
_______________________________________________________________________________
And to your answer, Konstantine. If criminals have equal rights with the non-criminals, then where
is the idea of punishment?
_______________________________________________________________________________
I dont think the one is less nauseating than the other. BTW I know there are corrupt cops, but
there is usually also an internal affairs appartment in the police force. Could you amplify on your
question "should we put the legal rights of the criminals above the legal rights of the ones who
haven't committed a crime?" Do you mean to say that they have More rights?
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 12:01pm (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
internal affairs *appartment department
_______________________________________________________________________________
No, but if we want to be realistic. What happens in Europe now? What does permanent mean?
After 10 years they are paroled.
_______________________________________________________________________________
the police are there to protect us, and if they're too busy protecting themselves more than us,
they aien't of much use.. are you implying that they are of greater importance to the community
than us people? look at the farmers who protect our lives and save us from starving to death
every single day..
_______________________________________________________________________________
That's the reason why I posted the links I have been sent.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ah! Now you are talking! There is no punishment! That is why in most countries it is called
"Department of correction".
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 01:59pm (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ι can understand it very well, dear Konstantine. But what shall we reply to those who have well
justified doubts to say "and what about, if he goes out and massacre 20 more? Besides in prison
he had good teachers to improve his skills on crime"?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Meanwhile, we have breaking news: A Libyan court has confirmed death sentences on six foreign
medical workers convicted of infecting children with HIV.
The five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor were not in court for the verdict, which was
announced on Wednesday, a day after a compensation deal was reportedly sealed with the
children's families.
Info:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/78B29C4B-C172-459A-86E8-BF94FD5285E0.htm
_______________________________________________________________________________
This is a risk we have to take. We need to feel confident about our Corrections System. If we
don't, then it might be the right time to be doing something to improve it. Believe me, I have been
conned by many people in my life and none of them was an ex convict! :-) There are no sure
things in life.
Ah! The Libya issue. This is not legal but political. Let’s see if by returning the Lockerby terrorist
to Libya we don't get these poor nurses freed. It is so obvious that these poor women are used by
Libya as a negotiating tool. Even the amount of compensation that Libya is asking for the alleged
victims of these nurses is exactly the amount of compensation that Libya had to pay to the
Lockerby victims. This is a clear case of using justice for political means. It is sad that innocent
people's lives have to be ruined like that.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ratso ... Dam* It! I have been so busy today, I forgot to drink that coffee!!!! (Sorry for all of the
typos) By the way, does anyone remember the animation film in which that great expression was
used? Something to do with a little duck. I think that it was shown in the latest Cannes Festival. I
cannot remember the title of the movie and I want to order it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And let’s not forget the Palestinian Doctor too!
_______________________________________________________________________________
This is the main reason why I was just giving hints in other blogs, Konstantine, that it is very
essential to decode the first line news. Information is abundant, yet it needs efforts to decode the
political purpose, often found in short articles and in small letters. First lines is the modern form of
the propaganda of those in political or economical power.
_______________________________________________________________________________
We should always have a critical mind and try to combine facts.

The formula might be "why so much time on TV or such big letters on papers for this fact now?" Is
it really new? Is it so important? What do they want to hide?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Eleni: I believe that everything that I stated in my previous posts are simply facts. Why now?
We will know in about twelve months from now if not a bit sooner. This is my last posting about
the Libya issue for now.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Correction Eleni its not only the cops that are more protected by law than the general public but
all state employers in jobs of authority , and its done so that people can be kept more civilized
towards puplic servants. Konstantinos, the film is: The ugly duckling and me, shown at Feldspar's
film fest i think
_______________________________________________________________________________
Yes, you are right, Haraldur.
_______________________________________________________________________________
the right of the individual is protected by law as to secure the people from harasment, but in fact it
has become so strong in many countries that a case can be thrown out of court if a police officer
does not follow protocol to the letter in obtaining evidence, even tho the evidence is indisputable
the, in my opinion it would be more correct to allow the evidence so justice can be done and
punish the cop for breaking the law
_______________________________________________________________________________
there are so many restrictions on how and when a person can be investigated that in fact the
criminal has "more rights" than the victim or non criminals
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Haraldur: Thank you!!! I will go on Amazon to find it! Thank you once again!
_______________________________________________________________________________

Dear Haraldur:
I would like to respond to what you wrote earlier about "there are so many restrictions on how and
when a person can be investigated that in fact the criminal has "more rights" than the victim or
non criminals". I would like to paraphraze it to "there are so many restrictions on how and when a
person can be investigated that in fact every citizen including law enforcement officials, victims
and non criminals feel safe from state abuses of their civil rights". I believe that this is the correct
version.
Thank you once again about the film title. I saw some scenes of that movie and I absolutely fell in
love with it!
Warmest regards,
Konstantinos
_______________________________________________________________________________
You’ re welcome Konstantinos
the issue was not to state some version of law but to point out that in praxis that those restrictions
help the criminals more than they help society in general
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 285, Billy:
Hmmm, you have a router failure for a couple of days and you find +280 entries when you're
back? ouch, I haven't time enough to read them all... I'd like to answer to Matthijs posts though:
Matthijs, I have not read the studies made in Emory University and would appreciate if you could
give their references? Thank you. From what I have read, it is just the contrary: studies have
consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively
than other punishments. Statistics show that abolition does not have any harmful effect on the
curve of crime; for instance, in Canada where death penalty was abolished in 1976, the homicide
rate per 100,000 population fell from 3.09 in 1975, to 2.41 in 1980, and 1.73 in 2003.
Anyhow, you can say anything with statistics, the reason why I am not sure you can really call
these studies "scientific". These are statistics, analysed a posteriori, so...
In my opinion, the point here is obvious though: the USA, where they still apply the death penalty,
is among developed country with the highest homicide rates. Homicide rates are much lower in
Europe or Canada, where there is no dealth penalty. Is there a relation? I think there is one.
Maybe not a direct one. Maybe it is rather related to how much the society you live in is selfish
and violent.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Haraldur: I was not stating some version of law but instead I was stating the essence of law.
I had the fortune or misfortune to grow up in a state that was under a military dictatorship. As a
student I participated in the Polytechnic revolution against that dictatorship and I learned to
appreciate the virtues of democracy. One of these virtues is a strong, independent justice system.
It is for this reason that I have been a proud member of ACLU for 30 years. These "restrictions" to
which you are refering, I call them safeguards of democracy. Warmest regards, Konstantinos
Thursday July 12, 2007 - 07:26am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 287, elmamelenia:
Very interesting subject Eleni!

Of course I am against political death executions, since these may be well used from the opposite
side on purpose.
I am against the death penalty, under certain conditions though.
We like it or not no one has the right to kill another human being but in the same time no one has
the right to abuse another person's rights and specially those of children.
If we take the case of pederasts (an intentionally pederast), the social services must find a way to
cure him/her for the society's benefit. If there is no way that this person is cured and when he
goes out of the prison will do it again, then I strongly believe that if for him life has no meaning
why should we be interested in his life?
Anyway in this case I would be more sensible for the children that would be saved by his
execution rather than for him living a useless life causing problems to others and abusing their
rights to a peacful life.....
Wednesday July 11, 2007 - 10:54pm (PDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Billy. Thank you for your comment. I agree with you too, about statistics..as far is Canadas
concerned: I posted this earlier: Canada saw a significant increase in gun control in the 90s; that
explains perhaps – to a large extent - the crime rate reduction there. If Canada had not abolished
capital punishment, it would be a Very peaceful country today – if you were to believe in the
Emory University team’s analysis of their data. I read about their research on the extremely
reliable Fox News site. I’ll google it up for you later.
Whether or no the death penalty really serves as deterrence is perhaps largely subjective and
therefore hard to research/measure. And what is science and what is not? Well, interesting. And
very relevant, but still another subject entirely. Perhaps a nice idea for a new topic here on this
discussion forum.
Thursday July 12, 2007 - 09:40am (CEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Elmamelenia, pederasty is very sensitive as issue, but why is the pederast guiltier than the one
who dismembers adults? It appears that women are more sensitive on the subject than men. But
in the 1st link I posted about cases of paedofilia (comment number 251) the man was helped by
his wife.
In another blog I had about homosexuality and marriage of homesexuals, Matthijs mentioned that
in Netherlands a paedophil party was about to take place. A very "legal" party. There, almost all
who commented declared that everyone is free in his sexual choices, and I declared the same.
But we must understand one day that some cases serve as res judicata to others. If we
stigmatize paedophilia, where is society's protest against such parties?
First we suffer all from Kitty Genovese 's syndrom, (apathy to what happens)- then we are
shocked and we demand the paedophil's head on a plate . Where is here our consequence
between our beliefs and actions in life?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Does Capital Punishment Have a Deterrent Effect? New Evidence from Post-moratorium Panel
Data:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?cfid=741412&cftoken=28565977&abstract_id=259538
_______________________________________________________________________________
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=259538#PaperDownload
_______________________________________________________________________________
I read it, it says:
"Evidence on the deterrent effect of capital punishment is important for many states that are
currently reconsidering their position on the issue. We examine the deterrent hypothesis using
county-level, post-moratorium panel data and a system of simultaneous equations. The
procedure we employ overcomes common aggregation problems, eliminates the bias arising from
unobserved heterogeneity, and provides evidence relevant for current conditions. Our results
suggest that capital punishment has a strong deterrent effect; each execution results, on
average, in 18 fewer murders%97with a margin of error of plus or minus 10. Tests show that
results are not driven by tougher sentencing laws, and are also robust to many alternative
specifications."
There are lacks. There is no reference on status of living, education, social system.
It can serve the same way as a religious formula helps the non-educated, by giving him simple
recipes and restrictions.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Im not such a fast reader lol! I read a few comments about social aspects though...!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 294, Billy:
Dear Matthijs: Thank you for the reference. I agree with Eleni's comments. Well, anyways, if you
make a Google search with the words "death penalty" AND deterrence, you get 279,000 hints. In
the first page of results only, there are links to websites that list dozens of studies dealing with
this very topic. I kipped through a few: of course, everything is concluded, and the contrary.
Quoting the UNO then, a fair conclusion would be IMO: "it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis
that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and
application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment".
As for Canada, I certainly agree with you that gun control helps in reducing homicide rate. Let us
explain it to NRA members... but this is another topic also!
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Billy, what is your opinion/view of/on this particular paper, not just the draft? Yes a lot of
research is going on round the clock. I agree btw, gun control is yet another topic.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 296, Julia:
OK, talking of the police, brutality and police public relations (we weren't talking about that
directly, but anyway) yesterday I witnessed the following scene: a car with two young Arabs was
stopped because it was parked in a bus lane; not one, not 2 but 4 policemen surrounded the car,
asked for both the driver and the passenger's identity cards, the car papers, the driving license.
Apparently all that was in order, but then they asked both men to get out of the car, they body-
searched them both and did a thorough sweep of the car as well as the trunk...........no comment.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Konstantinos I agree on the safeguards but...... if a cop brakes the law in getting some
indisputable evidence, is it any less a evidence? Would it not serve society and democracy better
to accept and use the evidence AND punish the cop for optaining it illegally?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 298, dimitris t:
ειμαι υπερ της θανατικης καταδικης και εκτελεσης των βιαστων,των παιδεραστων,των εμπορων
ναρκωτικων.
Thursday July 12, 2007 - 11:53am (CDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Translating
Dimitris: I am in favour of the death penalty and execution of rapists, paedophils and drug-
traffickers.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Actual case from Denmark! Father abuses his daughters! the older one he started with when she
was only 2yrs old and when she became 10 she was rented out to 15 different men for sex over 2
year period and thats only the men the authorities could find and the father admitted to. He
confessed to having abused the younger daughter during 2003-2004 she was then 6-7 yrs old.
the mother was found guilty of assiting in managing and renting the older daughterout for sex,
susspected of renting out the younger one too but could not be proved. 14 men found guilty of
abusing the older one. Will anyone make a guess on how long prison sentence the father got?
_______________________________________________________________________________
You tell us, Haraldur. And as I am also informed about the case, I recommend that the others
evaluate it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Guys, the man got 10 years sentence. The whole case is sick and I am with no arguments.
I need time to think. Any help?
_______________________________________________________________________________
As Eleni said, the father got 10yrs
The mother undefined time in treatment (she was out from hospital 126 days later)
The 14 men got sentenced from 1 to 6 yrs in prison
LONG LIVE HUMANE JUDGEMENT
_______________________________________________________________________________
Luis Alfredo Gavarito

admitted the murder of about 140 children of which we have so far found 114 skeleton," chief
prosecutor Alfonso Gomez told a news conference
_______________________________________________________________________________
Delfina & Maria de Jesus Gonzales.

These two deadly sisters ran the bordello from hell in Guanajuato, Mexico.
After too many unexplained disappearances, the cops raided the premises where they found the
bodies of eleven males, eighty females, and several fetuses.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Gerald Stano
tallied a body count of 41 as a result of his deep resentment towards a world of "bitches".
_______________________________________________________________________________
http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/serial1.html
Some nice reading
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 308, Cactusflinthead:
It is obvious which state in the US executes the most. I live there. I wish there was as much
discussion of this subject here as there is on this blog. I can say that it is political suicide for a
candidate or elected official to suggest that the death penalty should stop. The best I have been
able to hope is that people outside of the Dept of Corrections or the court system continue to
examine the cases.
Thursday July 12, 2007 - 05:41pm (CDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 309, Billy:
Matthijs: to tell the truth, I haven't read the whole study. 49 pages... and it is only one among
many, that reach to either conclusion, so...
Anyways, these studies are not relevant in my opinion, whatever conclusion they reach: countries
that still apply the death penalty don't do it for any scientific reason, but cultural ones. In my
opinion — and, please believe me, my statement is not 'simplistic anti-americanism' — it is quite
understandable that some countries still legally kill some of their citizens. Either because they are
dictatorships, either because they have a violent vision of society and human relationships. Poor
gun control, high homicide rates, war put abroad repetitively for good or fake reasons, poor
healthcare system, the death penalty... are all much of a muchness.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Haraldur: Evidence obtained ilegally is not evidence. Law enforcement is a profession.
Every profession is guided by rules and regulations in order to protect citizens’ rights. Stock
brokers, medical doctors, therapists, veterinaries, etc. they have rules and regulations to follow in
their practices. Most of these rules and regulations are self imposed since they are administered
and regulated by their own professional associations. Why should law enforcement officials be
any different? Think of it as consumer protection. :-) Citizens pay law enforcement officials (see
taxes) to "serve and protect" them (Los Angeles Police Dept. Logo). These laws and regulations
are there to protect consumers (including policemen, public prosecutors, etc.) rights. It is a bit like
buying toothpaste and you want to make sure that it was not made in ... just to make sure that
using it is not going to kill you.
Guys, it is 06:22 in the morning, before coffee, and after only four hours sleep, after a sixteen
hour day! Today is not going to be any easier for me. I apologize for any typos but I do not have
the streangth to even reread my message right now. I am going into the shower and back to the
office. I will try to catch up with you when I get a chance. Have a wonderful day!
_______________________________________________________________________________
From the site that Haraldur gave, we have most extreme homicide cases of serial killers all
around the world.
They are divided to categories: 20 murders +, between 10 + and 20, 5+ 10 hits,
less than 5
Among them, cases where the killer took 300+ lives.
I quote:
[Serial killers tend to be white, heterosexual males in their twenties and thirties who are sexually
dysfunctional and have low self-esteem. Their methodical rampages are almost always sexual in
nature.
Their killings are usually part of an elaborate fantasy that builds to a climax at the moment of their
murderous outburst. Serial killers generally murder strangers with cooling off periods between
each crime. Many enjoy cannibalism, necrophilia and keep trophy-like body parts as mementos of
their work. Serial killers are sadistic in nature. Some return to crime scenes or grave sites of their
victims to fantasize about their deeds. Many like to insert themselves in the investigation of their
crimes and some enjoy taunting authorities with letters or carefully placed pieces of evidence.
Serial killers tend to prey on women and children of their same race. Prostitutes, drifters and
hitchhikers are their victims of choice. Some homosexual killers enjoy hunting young boys and
gay men. Female serial killers tend to be "black widows" who kill a succession of husbands,
lovers, or other family members. They can also be nurses or other medical professionals who
become self-appointed "angels of death" murdering babies, elderly, or the desperately ill in a
misguided effort to relieve their suffering. Most serial killers grew up in violent households. As
youngsters they enjoyed torturing animals, setting fires and were chronic bed-wetters. As adults,
many serial have some type of brain damage and are addicted to alcohol and/or drugs. ]
Source: http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/serial1.html
Again, here the environment favours crime for reasons mentioned above. In addition, we have
psychopathogenic factors.
But for cases like the one mentioned from comment 299 to 304 in Europe, where no death
penalty exists, how do we cope, ladies and gentlemen?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Konstantine, Haraldur means: In cases of extreme crime, where the policemen are not entitled to
procure evidence, even when it is indisputable, where is the idea of justice?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Cactus, you have a serious point here.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Eleni:
"In cases of extreme crime, where the policemen are not entitled to procure evidence, even when
it is indisputable, where is the idea of justice?"
Indisputable evidence that is obtained legally can be presented in Court. Any evidence, which is
obtained legally and that relates to a case can be presented in Court. If this is not Justice, then,
honestly, I do not know what justice is. We are turning around in circles here! Questions that I
pose go unanswered and new ones come up that aske the same things but in a different way. I
believe that this is a good time for me to go get some sleep.
_______________________________________________________________________________
For me it's pretty clear. But there is not only me in this forum.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I apologize Eleni. I feel tired and I am afraid that I got a bit emotional here. :-)
_______________________________________________________________________________
I understand it. It's inevitable to be emotional on such an issue
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 318, NARICE:
I don't know where I read this. Perhaps on your blog but it went something like
If an individual kills someone we call it murder

If we then kill the muderer we call it justice
beyond the moral reasons this is wrong there is absolutely no logic in the argument
As children we are taught 2 wrongs do NOT make a right.
And then we grow up and society decides when they can do wrong things for what they believe to
be the right reasons.
We allow the murder of criminals because we don't want to deal with the cost and effort of
punishment and rehabilitation. With the mistaken notion that this eye for an eye mentality
SOLVES anything.
Friday July 13, 2007 - 08:52am (EDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Everything plays important role, dear Narice. To avoid create a potential murderer every human
being has to learn since very young, that there is a cause and consequence in every action. (Not
to put it in a naive way: you stole the chocolate that you shouldn't, therefore I spank you). The yes
is yes; and the no is no. Not maybe. I am afraid we forgot it in modern society. Then everyone
goes out and has to handle this time with law.
There are intermediate steps before this.
_______________________________________________________________________________
But alas, if we avoid crime, due to the knowledge that there is punishment. We miss the whole
point.
_______________________________________________________________________________
A man is suspected of murder (let’s say in Denmark) there are no clear evidence therof other
than the cop notice some contradictions in the suspects story, illegally the cop enters the mans
house and finds a videotape that is judged by experts both from the prossecution and defense to
be genuine, the tape show the suspect killing in cold blod the victim in most cruel and inhuman
way.
We agree that the cop did gome to the tape illegally; we agree that the tape is genuine, how can
it not be evidence? As a consequence the cop should be charged with breaking and entering
sure but to dismiss the evidence is stupid
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 322, Yours for always, Moda Siliv:
I ditto Yanism I came from her page from Dorid before that.
Lou among the firsts has pretty much said what I have to say tho
Saturday July 14, 2007 - 12:40am (JST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Haraldur: The issue in your example goes directly to the credibility of such "found evidence".
I cannot accept the credibility of the evidence presented (in this case a video tape) because it
was not obtained by credible means. If evidence is obtained ilegally, then I cannot trust the
credibility of that evidence.
On top of that I would persecute this law enforcement officer because by obtaining this evidence
by illegal means he/she made it impossible for that evidence to be used in the future. This law
enforcement officer did not serve justice with his/her actions but worked against it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
There are so many different ways that a such tape could come to the attention of the police,
boasting is one thing many criminals do and if a cop heard such a boast without a recording
device running? Or other means of collaborating his/her words? what is the use of safeguards if
they as a rule protect the criminals more than victims and innocents?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Hmmm... ok, let's say there is no way to obtain the evidence then. Will the crime remain covered?
_______________________________________________________________________________
If this is my only choice, then I prefer a criminal going free (we'll catch him/her next time) than an
innocent person imprisoned.
_______________________________________________________________________________
The crime is not covered, The criminal would walk out of the courtroom smiling
_______________________________________________________________________________
Already planning the next killing, feeling invincible
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Konstantinos in the example it was stated that specialist of both defence and prosecution
agreed that the tape was authentic
_______________________________________________________________________________
I can’t see the problem 1; if the evidence is indisputable it is exactly that, there can be no
question because defacto then it would not be indisputable.
2. if the cop is charged and eventually judged for optaining it illegally where is the injustice?
_______________________________________________________________________________
I am not convinced by arguments here. If we don't conclude to something concrete (for I think it is
unfair to pretend dispensing justice by covering the crime) maybe the whole law system -even in
Europe needs to be reformed.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 332, Julia:

Does 'if the glove fits, you must acquit' ring a bell? A propos obtaing evidence. My gut instinct
would be to dismiss evidence illegally obtained - I wonder about evidence that is planted (put
there by the police for example) I have a headache à propos this discussion.....
_______________________________________________________________________________
Join the club for the headache, Julia. My instict would be the same, if we didn't have the
hypothesis "indisputable both by prosecution and defence".
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 334, Julia:
From today's New York Times (eleni, you are setting a trend, even in New York!):
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/us/13execute.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
_______________________________________________________________________________
Thanks, Julia. I read it. And what infuriates me is the Governor's - Michael Rounds worries: [ he
was concerned about a potential conflict between the law’s description of how a lethal injection
should be carried out and the state’s procedure.]????? Is this the point? And the mother of the
victim stating "I am proud to be an American"? In which century do we live?
My apologies. Hot subject and I turn emotional again.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 336, Julia:
The last sentence by the victim's mother made me sick to my stomach (and I'm American!)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 337, Julia:
and, get a load of this:
http://www.wikihow.com/Take-Action-to-Abolish-the-Death-Penalty
_______________________________________________________________________________
This is extremely interesting, dear Julia! It needs to be read carefully! Thanks a lot.
_______________________________________________________________________________
A Swedish man found guilty in 1980 for drowning and eating his girlfriend gets several days "off"
from prison every week. In spite of considdered extremely dangerous by doctors , and having
written 3 letters promising to kill 3 persons the 57 yr old gets few days off a week from prison and
sleeps happily at home in Malmø
_______________________________________________________________________________
My personal position:
Haraldur, I wouldn't permit days off to the prisoner of Malmø or if I were convinced that I should at
any rate, he would have guards somehow. (The way is not of the present hour).
I remain definitely against death penalty. I have explained in details in other comments why- I am
not going to do it again; it would be a pleonasm.
I am not a vegeterian; I accept that there is violence in human nature and up to one point here
lays its charm. (Besides, there are researches that even plants have intelligence. What would the
"americanized" protectors of the plants say? Save a tree; eat a beaver?)
So, I don't feel that I should apologize to my steak, whenever I enjoy it and I find it juicy. I have
nothing against the hunter who shoots a grouse to eat it. How many grouses do you need to fill
your stomach? One? Two because you are fat and greedy? Three because you have invited
your mother - in - law to dinner? Fine. But I am definitely against the hunter who needs 3 grouses
and kills 100 to show that he is good at shooting.
I feel, that if we fall into the trap of the moral "vegeterianism" we self lobotomize ourselves.
Nature itself is harsh. In periods of starvation the lioness carries the weak cub away to save the
healthy one.
If we agree that in human life, the highest virtue is life itself, then freedom follows.
I would never execute the condemned. But I would give him time to consider about his freedom in
custody. And for incurable cases by this way I think that I would protect society too. Any
objection? Give me arguments. My forgiveness is not limitless and I am not going to play the role
of the Supreme Creature.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Ergo, permanent in prison for extreme serial killers should mean permanent.
_______________________________________________________________________________
:P hmmm what about the hunter that needs 3 grouses but kills hundred to sell so his
wife/girlfriend can have some nice clothes ,pc and internet to write moral blogs?
_______________________________________________________________________________
We love him, we respect him, we abolish the death penalty, we strangle him and burry him in the
garden and we don't risk our head. :-p :-p
_______________________________________________________________________________
Kidding of course. Even for the case of hunters there are regulations. I am not going to search
the laws for hunting now. We are talking about death penalty.
_______________________________________________________________________________
In two words, Haraldur:

Would you favour the death penalty, if you are reassured that the perverted beast will remain in
jail?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Friends:
The Questions I have answered so far are:

Is the Death Penalty a Crime Deterent?
Is the Death Penalty a good form of Correction?
Is the Death Penalty a Just Action?
Should we allow Law Enforcement Agencies to Brake the Law in order to Prevent Others from
doing so?
Is there a qualitative classification of murder to Small, Medum, Extra Large?
Is taking revenge the purpose of delivering justice?
Is punishment the only purpose of delivering justice?
To ALL of the above, my answer is a definite NO!
Respectfully,
Konstantinos
Saturday July 14, 2007 - 11:47am (EEST)
_______________________________________________________________________________
hmmmm conclusion to obtain utopia we have to genemanipulate the human race

build great greenhouses and plant us in rows, so we can in peace and harmony contemplate the
meaning of life, and we better hope that all plant eating bugs were left outside
_______________________________________________________________________________
In all questions I answer no, Konstantine and to the famous "Should we allow Law Enforcement
Agencies to Brake the Law in order to Prevent Others from doing so?" Haraldur doesn't have any
objection either, if I am not mistaken. The point was elsewhere: Should we also cover the crime
pretending to be democratic? Serious condition: We are talking about democratic countries in
Europe today.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Konstantinos! Why is the death penalty not just?

I know that you are against it but that alone doesnt make it unjust.
Where is the Justice in keeping massmurderer a life? as long as he is he has the possibility to
escape and kill again.
He might live in one of the countries where Life sentence is only about 14-18 yrs then he is going
to get out and have the opportunity
as to if death penalty is a crime deterrent i dont know i dont have the resources to find out and i
cant trust 100% the research of others as you know that number can be made to show almos
what ever you want them to show.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I see things in black and white when it comes to Justice matters. If a crime has been committed,
then action has to be taken. I am a very simple and humble man :-)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ladies and gentlemen,
Today it happens to be 14th of July, the 218th anniversary of the storming of Bastille in 1789 and
national holiday for the French. All revolutions for freedom, equality, democracy and brotherhood
in human history were neither painless nor bloodless. Is killing the tyrans there justified? Don't
rush to answer me "no" or else we don't deign the right of man to claim his rights too.
Between the two extremes there should be somewhere the middle path.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 352, Julia:
Happy Bastille Day from Paris! Yet another national holiday I dislike. I was just thinking, it's a
relief to know that most people who voted on this blog are against the DP.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 353, Julia:
I might add: Konstantinos for President!!
By the way, spelling queen that I am (and proud of it :P) it's break, not brake. I apologise if I
stepped on anyone's toes, I will allow this spelling mistake because I know it comes from
intelligent Greeks and also bad spelling in smart people is so touching and a wonderful sign of
rebellion (cf. my younger sister who, by the way, used to be a public defender in central
California, against the death penalty, etc.)
_______________________________________________________________________________
how kind of you to allow spelling mistakes
_______________________________________________________________________________
just a joke here : your sister would be a really bad puplic defender if she was pro DP
_______________________________________________________________________________
and by the way it apologize
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I will repeat my motto: “Unexceptionable condition to rejoice freedom in all forms is the right to be
alive”.
I vote clearly and definitely against death penalty. I believe though that the law system needs to
be reformed even in the most democratic countries of the world today, to avoid injustice to the
essence or just in the name of justice.
I would like to thank all who participated in this very heated debate. I hope that something
positive will come out of all opinions opposed here -even the most extreme ones.
I still believe that stating one's oppinion, by being sceptical to clichés, stereotypes or prejudices
and same time active parts of society and teaching the same thing to the younger generation is
the only hope for the continuation and evolution of the human being and the most essential
element of democracy.
Permit me to have a break, the emotional pressure has been immense in this forum; Enough was
given for further thought, and if we continue, we will inevitably turn around circles.
My warmest thanks and my best regards to everyone
Eleni Kallianezou
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 358, Julia:
british spelling, dear Haraldur:) is apologise, apologize is US spelling
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dear Eleni:
Thank you for creating and maintaining this wonderful forum and putting up with me. Thank you
all for putting up with me! Happy 14th of July!
Filika,
Konstantinos
_______________________________________________________________________________
Study of Wrongful Convictions Raises Questions Beyond DNA

By ADAM LIPTAK
In April, Jerry Miller, an Illinois man who served 24 years for a rape he did not commit, became
the 200th American prisoner cleared by DNA evidence. His case, like the 199 others, represented
a catastrophic failure of the criminal justice system.
When an airplane crashes, investigators pore over the wreckage to discover what went wrong
and to learn from the experience. The justice system has not done anything similar. But a new
study does. Brandon L. Garrett, a law professor at the University of Virginia, has, for the first time,
systematically examined the 200 cases, in which innocent people served an average of 12 years
in prison. In each case, of course, the evidence used to convict them was at least flawed and
often false — yet juries, trial judges and appellate courts failed to notice.
“A few types of unreliable trial evidence predictably supported wrongful convictions,” Professor
Garrett concluded in his study, “Judging Innocence,” to be published in The Columbia Law
Review in January.
The leading cause of the wrongful convictions was erroneous identification by eyewitnesses,
which occurred 79 percent of the time. In a quarter of the cases, such testimony was the only
direct evidence against the defendant.
Faulty forensic evidence was next, present in 55 percent of the cases. In some of those cases,
courts put undue weight on evidence with limited value, as when a defendant’s blood type
matched evidence from the crime scene. In others, prosecution experts exaggerated, made
honest mistakes or committed outright fraud.
Most of the forensic evidence involved problems with the analysis of blood or semen. Forty-two
cases featured expert testimony about hair, an area that is, Professor Garrett wrote, “notoriously
unreliable.”
Informants testified against the defendants in 18 percent of the cases. (In three cases, it turned
out they had an unusually powerful motive for their false testimony, as DNA evidence proved they
were in fact guilty of the crime they had pinned on the defendant.)
There were false confessions in 16 percent of the cases, with two-thirds of those involving
defendants who were juveniles, mentally retarded or both.
The 200 cases examined in the study are a distinctive subset of criminal cases. More than 90
percent of those exonerated by DNA were convicted of rape, or of both rape and murder, rape
being the classic crime in which DNA can categorically prove innocence. For other crimes, there
is often no biological evidence or, if there is, it can give only circumstantial hints about guilt or
innocence.
Only 14 of those exonerated had been sentenced to death, 13 in rape-murders. There is a

widespread misconception that DNA evidence has freed many inmates from death row, but it is
actually a rare murder not involving rape in which biological evidence can provide categorical
proof of innocence.
“DNA testing is available in fewer than 10 percent of violent crimes,” said Peter Neufeld, a
founder of the Innocence Project at Cardozo Law School, which was instrumental in securing
many exonerations. “But the same causes of wrongful convictions exist in cases with DNA
evidence as in those cases that don’t.”
Professor Garrett’s study strongly suggests, then, that there are thousands of people serving long
sentences for crimes they did not commit but who have no hope that DNA can clear them.
_______________________________________________________________________________
In a second forthcoming study of false convictions, this one focused on capital cases, two law
professors — Samuel R. Gross of the University of Michigan and Barbara O’Brien of Michigan
State — cautioned that “exonerations are highly unrepresentative of wrongful convictions in
general.”
“The main thing we can safely conclude from exonerations is that there are many other false
convictions that we have not discovered,” the Michigan study said. “In addition, a couple of strong
demographic patterns appear to be reliable: black men accused of raping white women face a
greater risk of false conviction than other rape defendants; and young suspects, those under 18,
are at greater risk of false confession than other suspects.”
Professor Garrett also found that exonerated convicts were more apt to be members of minority
groups than was the prison population generally. For instance, 73 percent of the convicts cleared
of rape charges were black or Hispanic, compared with 37 percent of all rape convicts.
The courts performed miserably in ferreting out the innocent. Thirty-one of the 200 exonerated
prisoners, for instance, had appealed to the United States Supreme Court, but the justices
refused to hear 30 of the cases. In the one case they did hear, they ruled against the inmate. Of
course, appeals courts do not typically reconsider a jury’s factual findings, focusing instead on
asserted procedural errors. Only 20 of the 200 even appealed on the ground that they were
innocent; none of those claims were granted.
Perhaps the most troubling finding in Professor Garrett’s study was how reluctant the criminal
justice system was to allow DNA testing in the first place. Prosecutors often opposed it, and 16
courts initially denied requests for testing.
Yet DNA evidence can do more than free the innocent. In many cases, it also identified the
person who actually committed the crime.
In 40 percent of the cases handled by the Innocence Project, Mr. Neufeld said, DNA not only
exonerated the innocent prisoner but also provided evidence that helped identify the person who
committed the crime. “In every single one of those cases that perpetrator had committed violent
crimes in the intervening years,” he said.
The era of DNA exonerations should be a finite one. These days, DNA testing is common on the
front end of prosecutions, meaning that in a few years, the window that the 200 exonerations has
opened on the justice system will close. We should look carefully through that window while we
can.
Dear Friends:
I know that this issue is now closed but I found this article to be of extreme interest and I wanted
to share it with you.
Best regards,
Konstantinos
_______________________________________________________________________________
Comment 362, maria pin:
Hello again! Hot topic! I too, am against the death penalty: a civilised society should not have to
kill its members, there should be other means of punishment and education, and especially
prevention. After all (and I know it is a it simplistic to say) it is poor, miserable and derranged
people who commit crime.
Tuesday July 24, 2007 - 06:33am (PDT)
_______________________________________________________________________________

Forum For The Abolition of Death Penalty - Comments

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Title

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Forum For The Abolition of Death Penalty - Comments

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Comments (362 total)

Comment 1, Stern Face:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 09:13pm (EEST)

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 09:24pm (EEST)

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 08:36pm (CEST)

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 08:42pm (CEST)

Lou has a ruthless streak in her... ;)

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 11:44am (PDT)

Comment 6, Lavica Vila:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 09:45pm (EEST)

ΚΟΝΤΟΛΟΓΙΣ, Η' ΕΧΕΙ ΑΞΙΑ Η ΑΝΘΡΩΠΙΝΗ ΖΩΗ Η" ΟΧΙ!!!!

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 09:56pm (EEST)

Comment 8, Lavica Vila:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 10:29pm (EEST)

Comment 10, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 04:31pm (EDT)

Comment 11, from_anotherplanet:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 10:40pm (CEST)

Comment 12, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 04:51pm (EDT)

Comment 13, from_anotherplanet:

Comment 14, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 04:58pm (EDT)

Comment 15, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

extremely small - I think is maybe more clear

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 05:00pm (EDT)

Comment 16, from_anotherplanet:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 11:03pm (CEST)

Comment 17, from_anotherplanet:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 11:10pm (CEST)

Comment 18, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 05:11pm (EDT)

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 05:15pm (EDT)

Comment 20, from_anotherplanet:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 11:23pm (CEST)

Comment 21, ioanna:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:23am (EEST)

Comment 22, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 05:42pm (EDT)

Comment 23, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 05:46pm (EDT)

Comment 24, from_anotherplanet:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 11:50pm (CEST)

Comment 25, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 06:12pm (EDT)

Comment 26, Matthijs:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:28am (CEST)

Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:33am (CEST)

Comment 28, from_anotherplanet:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 12:45am (CEST)

Comment 29, Matthijs:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 01:44am (CEST)

Comment 30, from_anotherplanet:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 02:49am (CEST)

Comment 31, Brad P, sculptorBradP(at)yahoo:

Thursday July 5, 2007 - 10:19pm (EDT)

Comment 32, Gerry:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 01:47pm (EST)

Comment 33, Konstantinos:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 09:05am (EEST)

Comment 34, tanlaningskay:

Friday July 6, 2007 - 09:28am (EEST)

Comment 35, Alexandros ^: