2011-12-21 Rothstein Scott AM

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA Case No.
09-062943 (07) _____________________________________________________ RAZORBACK FUNDING, LLC, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, et al., Defendants. ____________________________________________________
DAY 7 - MORNING SESSION DEPOSITION OF SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN
DATE TAKEN: TIME: PLACE:
December 21, 2011 8:36 a.m. - 12:07 p.m. James Lawrence King Federal Justice Building 99 N.E. Fourth Street Courtroom 11-3 Miami, Florida 33128
Examination of the witness taken before: Michele L. Savoy, Registered Professional Reporter United Reporting, Inc. 1218 S.E. Third Avenue Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33316 (954) 525-2221
United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2028 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 vs. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11-02604-RBR Stettin v. Maple Leaf Drilling Partners, et al 11-02605-RBR Stettin v. Don King Productions, Inc. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 10-03802-RBR Stettin v. Centurion Structured Growth, LLC, et al 11-02368-RBR Stettin v. TD Bank, N.A. 11-02288-RBR Stettin v. Fidelity Charitable Gift Fund 11-02473-RBR Stettin v. Regent Capital Partners, LLC, et al SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, TD BANK, N.A. and GIBRALTAR PRIVATE BANK AND TRUST COMPANY, Defendants. _____________________________________________________ 10-03767-RBR Stettin v. Gibraltar Private Bank & Trust Co. vs. SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________________________ Case No. 11-CV-61688-JIC/LSS AMY ADAMS, et. al, Plaintiffs, EDWARD J. MORSE and CAROL A. MORSE, and MORSE OPERATIONS, INC. Plaintiffs, IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA ____________________________________________________ Case No. 10-24110 CACE(19)
Page 2029 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Counsel appearing on the foregoing appearance pages reflect counsel that attended at least one session during the deposition. It does not reflect their appearance each and every session.) APPEARANCES FOR SCOTT ROTHSTEIN: LAW OFFICE OF MARC S. NURIK 1 East Broward Boulevard Suite 700 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: MARC S. NURIK, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR THE CHAPTER 11 TRUSTEE, HERBERT STETTIN: BERGER SINGERMAN 350 East Las Olas Boulevard Suite 1000 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: CHARLES H. LICHTMAN, ESQUIRE and GENOVESE, JOBLOVE & BATTISTA, P.A. 100 S.E. 2nd Street Suite 4400 Miami, Florida 33131 By: JOHN. H. GENOVESE, ESQUIRE DAVID C. CIMO, ESQUIRE THERESA M.B. VAN VLIET, ESQUIRE JESUS SUAREZ, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR RAZORBACK: CONRAD & SCHERER, LLP 633 South Federal Highway Eighth Floor Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33302 By: WILLIAM R. SCHERER, ESQUIRE ERIC RAYMAN, ESQUIRE IVAN J. KOPAS, ESQUIRE and KOZYAK, TROPIN & THROCKMORTON, P.A. 2525 Ponce de Leon Boulevard Ninth Floor Coral Gables, Florida 33134 By: HARLEY S. TROPIN, ESQUIRE United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2030 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 CLAUSIN MILLER One Chase Manhattan Plaza 39th Floor New York, New York 10005 BY: SCOTT L. SCHMOOKLER, ESQUIRE AKERMAN, SENTERFITT One Southeast Third Avenue 25th Floor Miami, Florida 33131-1704 By: MICHAEL GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR TD BANK: GREENBERG TRAURIG, P.A. 401 E Las Olas Blvd Ste 2000 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 By: HOLLY SKOLNICK, ESQUIRE DONNA EVANS, ESQUIRE MARK SCHNAPP, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR RLI ZURICH INSURANCE COMPANY, COLUMBIA INC. & ZURICH INSURANCE: KOPELOWITZ OSTROW FERGUSON WEISELBERG KEECHL 200 SW 1st Ave Suite 1200 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 333012073 BY: JAN ATLAS, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR THE COMMITTEE OF UNSECURED CREDITORS: APPEARANCES FOR PLATINUM PARTNERS VALUE ARBITRAGE CENTURION STRUCTURED GROWTH, LLC: GOLDSTEIN, TANEN & TRENCH, P.A. One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3700 Two South Biscayne Boulevard Miami, Florida 33131 By: SUSAN E. TRENCH, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR LEVINSON'S JEWELERS:
Page 2031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 APPEARANCES FOR ROSANNE CARETSKY: 23 24 25 Billing Cochran Lyles 515 E Las Olas Blvd Floor Six Fort Lauderdale, Florida 333012296 By: WILLIAM TUCKER CRAIG, ESQUIRE By: WILLIAM TUCKER CRAIG, ESQUIRE United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 LAW OFFICES OF ROBERTA DEUTSCH 2499 Glades Road Suite 110 Boca Raton, Florida 33431 By: ROBERTA M. DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR EMESS CAPITAL, LLC: KLUGER KAPLAN SILVERMAN, KATZEN & LEVINE, PL 201 S Biscayne Blvd Fl 17 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: CASEY H. CUSICK, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR ST. PAUL FIRE & MARINE: MILLS PASKERT DIVERS P.A. 100 N Tampa St Ste 2010 Tampa, Florida 33602 BY: JOHN A. BLACK, JR., ESQUIRE TRIPP SCOTT, P.A. 110 S.E. Sixth Street,15th Floor Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 By: GEORGE WALKER, ESQUIRE JOHN M. MULLIN, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR CAROL MORSE, TED MORSE & MORSE OPERATIONS: APPEARANCES FOR FEDERAL INSURANCE COMPANY: ALEX HOFRICHTER, P.A 1430 South Dixie Highway Suite 204 Coral Gables, Florida 331463127 By: ALEX HOFRICHTER, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR MORSE:
Page 2032 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 APPEARANCES FOR FRANK PREVE: 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES FOR LEVINSON PEARSON & ASSOCIATES, WATCH U-WANT, INC.: United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 PODHURST ORSEK 25 W Flagler St Ste 800 Miami, Florida 331301720 BY: RAMON A. RASCO, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR GIBRALTAR: STEARNS WEAVER MILLER, et al. 150 W Flagler St Ste 2200 Miami, Florida 331301545 BY: MARY BARZEE-FLORES, ESQ. MATTHEW DATES, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR MICHAEL SZAFRANKSI: LYDECKER, DIAZ 1221 Brickell Avenue Floor 19 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: CHRISTOPHER G. BERGA, ESQUIRE MIGUEL J. CHAMORRO, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR FEPICT, MS GROUP: NYSTROM, BECKMAN & PARIS One Marina Park Dr., 15th Flr. Boston, MA 02210 By: JACK SEIGAL, ESQUIRE APPEARANCES FOR PLATINUM & CENTURION: HARVEY WERBLOWSKY, ESQUIRE and CURTIS, MALLET-PREVOST, COLT & MOSLE, LLP 101 Park Avenue New York, NY 10178-0061 By: GABRIEL HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE ELIOT LAUER, ESQUIRE
Page 2033 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 APPEARANCES FOR FRANK SPINOSA: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 SCHLESINGER AND COTZEN, P.L. 799 Brickell Plz Ste 700 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: MICHAEL J. SCHLESINGER, ESQUIRE and MICHAEL COTZEN, ESQUIRE and SAMUEL J. RABIN, ESQUIRE 799 Brickell Plaza Suite 606 Miami, Florida 33131 APPEARANCES FOR THE US GOVERNMENT: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE 500 E. Broward Blvd., Ste. 700 Ft. Lauderdale, Florida 33394 BY: CYNTHIA STONE, ESQUIRE KOPELOWITZ OSTROW 200 SW 1st Ave Ste 1200 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 By: BART A. HOUSTON, ESQUIRE
Page 2034 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 NO. 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 SPINOSA'S EXHIBIT INDEX DESCRIPTION PAGE NO Text Messages 2154 September 9, 2009, Email 2155 April 23, 2009, Email 2157 Email Chain 2160 TD/Razor 002505 2164 Email Chain 2167 Invitee List 2178 April 22, 2009, Email 2187 NO. 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 TD BANK'S EXHIBIT INDEX DESCRIPTION Trustee_TD-000270 Trustee_TD-000014 Coquina 000875 September 9, 2009, Email Email Chain Email Chain Email Chain Coquina 003147 Trustee_TD-000279 Email Chain FP112310-0175287/1 PAGE NO 2035 2056 2074 2076 2110 2121 2136 2138 2138 2140 2142 Ms. Evans Mr. Schnapp Mr. Rabin Mr. Craig CERTIFICATE OF OATH CETIFICATE OF REPORTER DIRECT 2035 FURTHER DIRECT 2127 2146 2186 2199 2200 INDEX CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN
Page 2035 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 well. Q Thank you for giving us testimony again today. BY MS. EVANS: Q A Good morning, Mr. Rothstein. Good morning, Ms. Evans. How are you? I'm Whereupon, SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN, acknowledged having been duly sworn to tell the truth and testified upon his oath as follows: THE WITNESS: I do.
CONTINUING DIRECT EXAMINATION
Thank you.
I appreciate it. There are a couple of things this morning I just wanted to start off with to sort of like clean up and circle back on some matters from yesterday. A Q Okay. And take it from there. The first exhibit that I'm going to ask you to take a look at is going to be No. 240, and it is Trustee TD 270 and 271. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 240 for Identification.) BY MS. EVANS: Q And I think if you -- to review it, you would
start with the back page and work to the front. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2036 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A Q Okay. I've reviewed it.
The last page has a reference that -- the top Did I get the Utica
email on that page, "I just landed. deal? Wish you were here.
Love ya, Mikey."
Does that refresh your recollection as to who Utica was, by any chance? A It refreshes my recollection to the extent
that it's clear that Utica was under the Szafranski feeder fund umbrella. Q Okay. Other than that, do you remember
anything about Utica itself? A Q I do not. Okay. Do you remember anything about the
circumstances of this particular -- this particular set of emails? A Q Only that Mike was in Israel. Okay. Looking at the first page under
August 3rd, I guess it states August 3rd, at 12:36 -well, it doesn't matter. Actually, here's my question: On August 3rd,
was Mr. Szafranski at that point, to your knowledge, aware of the -- that he was involved in a Ponzi scheme? MR. SCHERER: Objection. Form. He was
We never used the word "Ponzi scheme."
aware that a fraud was occurring, yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2037 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A BY MS. EVANS: Q And was he aware that the fraud was a scheme? MR. SCHERER: Object. Form.
I can't tell you -- I don't even know what A "scheme." It's such a broad word.
that means. BY MS. EVANS: Q A
Was he -He was aware that we were lying to investors.
He was aware that the money we were saying was there, was not there. He was aware of fraud and he was participating. Q Do you know if Mr. Szafranski was aware at
this point in time that the structured settlements were fraudulent? MR. SCHERER: They were -MS. EVANS: bothering you? MR. SCHERER: repetitive. The form is that it's so What about the form is Objection to form.
This witness has answered about
Szafranski being aware and when he was aware maybe 20 times in the last seven days. And, you know, you've got six lawyers from TD and -United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2038 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here. MR. SCHERER: So you guys have got about MR. SCHLESINGER: MR. SCHERER: Mr. Scherer --
Just let me finish. You're making a speech.
MR. SCHLESINGER: MR. SCHERER:
Don't interrupt me.
She asked me and I'm telling her what the form is. Don't interrupt me, Mike. MS. EVANS: be very civil. MR. SCHERER: finish. MS. EVANS: Let's try to be very civil Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me Let's do this. Let's try to
six lawyers and you continue to ask the same questions over and over and over again. If you read the order, that's not the spirit of the order, and that's what's going on here. And, frankly, I'm going to object to And when we get there, I'm
form every time.
going to ask the Court to strike it because it had been asked and answered dozens of times. So, now. BY MS. EVANS: Q This is an exhibit which has not been before United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2039 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A you in the past seven days; is that correct? A Q A me or not. Q I'll represent to you that this has not been a I have seen so many exhibits, Ms. Evans -Okay. I'll rephrase the --
-- I can't tell you whether it's been before
part of any exhibits that we've had here in the past seven days, which is why I'm asking you to testify as to this exhibit right now. And with this exhibit in front
of you, are you aware from anything that is on this page, whether or not Mr. Szafranski was aware of the fact that the settlements were fraudulent at this point in time? MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
This doesn't speak to it one way or the other.
BY MS. EVANS: Q A Okay. In my mind. I know what he was aware of. I don't know what you're trying to get at in this particular email. This is about a specific deal.
Do you have another email? I'm not trying to get at anything. I'm just
trying to see if I can refresh your recollection on any further details. So that's why I'm showing you this United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2040 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A email. A It's not refreshing anything other than Utica
was under the Szafranski umbrella. Q To your knowledge, did you ever meet anyone
from Utica? A Q I may have. And when you say "I may have," do you have any
recollection whatever? A I have a recollection of probably meeting over So
1,000 people during the course of the Ponzi scheme. I may have. Q None of whom you can directly say were
associated with Utica? If I represented to you that Utica has assigned its interest in a proof of claim to Emess, would that in any way -- are you aware of that? MR. CUSICK: I'm not. Object to the form.
BY MS. EVANS: Q Would that jog your memory in any way as to
whether Emess and Utica were related? MR. CUSICK: It does not. Perhaps if you have something between Utica and Mr. Lifshitz, that might establish one way or the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Object to the form.
Page 2041 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 other whether they were related. But as I sit here
today, I don't have a specific memory as to who Utica was, except now that it was under the Szafranski umbrella. BY MS. EVANS: Q umbrella"? A Szafranski was a Ponzi scheme feeder fund. What do you mean when you say "Szafranski
The way I group things in my mind was there was the Banyan/Levin umbrella. umbrella. That was the Szafranski And
There was the hedge funds in New York.
eventually there was the A.J./Von Allmen umbrella. But different people traveled back and forth under different umbrellas as the Ponzi scheme got more complicated. Q well? A Q Yes, I'm sorry, the Boden/Pearson umbrella. Going back to Mel Lifshitz for a moment, do And the Pearson umbrella, was that one as
you know how many times you met with him? A Q A Q A I do not. Do you know whether it was more than a dozen? I would be guessing. Do you recall meeting with him in your office? I do. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2042 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for? A Q personal? A To see me. On -- for any particular purpose besides just In other words, what personal -My recollection is, that every time I met with Q A Q How many times? I would be guessing. Do you recall any circumstances upon which he
came to your office? A Q Personal stuff and business stuff. What personal stuff did he come to your office
Melly Lifshitz, we had personal time together, meaning we might go to lunch or dinner or have a cocktail or just sit around and BS, and we would have business time. Q business? A Q I just said I don't remember. Okay. Did you do any business with How many times did he come to your office on
Mr. Lifshitz besides the structured settlements? A Q I don't recall. Is there any document that might -- do you
recall that you're aware of? A If you have a document and you show it to me,
that would be helpful. Q Do you recall yourself creating any documents United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2043 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A related to Mr. Lifshitz other than the deal documents? A I, unfortunately, don't recall just because of With over a
the sheer magnitude of paper in this case.
million pages, I just can't have a specific recollection at this moment regarding whether I did something outside the Ponzi scheme with Mr. Lifshitz. independent recollection. Q Is your recollection limited to the documents I don't have an
in this case in terms of the documents you can recall? MR. CUSICK: MR. SCHERER: Object to the form. Object to the form.
I don't know what that question means.
BY MS. EVANS: Q Well, you said you can't recall anything
that's from the documents in this case and I guess I -A That's not -- whoa, whoa. I never said I
can't recall anything from the documents in this case. Q A Q You're right. You didn't say --
That's not what I said. All right. Why don't you -- my question to
you is, you said you don't recall anything from the documents in this case and I'm asking beyond that do you recall -A Q I never said that. Let me finish and then you can answer. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2044 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Whether you created any document related to Mr. Lifshitz outside of those documents? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form.
I did, to my knowledge, to the best of my
recollection, substantial fraudulent business with Mr. Lifshitz. To my knowledge, which he did not know was fraudulent. I was defrauding him and his investors.
I don't recall whether or not I did any regular other business with him. I may have. If you
have a document that reflects that, the easiest thing to do is simply show me the document, then I can answer your question. MS. EVANS: I move to strike that answer
as nonresponsive to my question. BY MS. EVANS: Q Do you have any knowledge whether anyone at TD
Bank met anyone related to Emess at any point in time during the scheme? A Q A Q They may have. What is your best recollection regarding that? That they may have. So you don't have any specific recollection
whatsoever? A They may have. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2045 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Bank. And now that I'm thinking about it, Mr. Lifshitz was pushy when it came to getting United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 A Q question. whatsoever? ALL PRESENT: Object to form. Listen to my question and please answer my Do you have any specific recollection
My specific recollection is that they may have You must understand -- let me
met someone from Emess. finish.
You must understand that Mr. Spinosa came on It was
many occasions to Bova to have a drink with me.
my, quote/unquote, watering hole, my meeting place, since I owned it. I can't specifically remember whether or not I may have introduced, for example, Mr. Spinosa, to someone from Emess, to Mr. Lifshitz. remember. I just can't
There were too many meetings, too many Certain things I remember specifically. It's
people, okay.
I don't know one way or the other at this moment. very possible that he did. BY MS. EVANS: Q recall? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form.
So the answer to the question is you don't
He very well may have met someone from TD
Page 2046 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 gave. A information. And I would say that more likely than not,
he did meet someone or speak to someone, Mr. Spinosa probably, from TD Bank. But I don't have a specific
recollection of that meeting. BY MS. EVANS: Q Therefore, you don't recall any specific
meeting between Mr. Lifshitz and anyone at TD Bank? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form.
I'm going to stick with the answer I already The multiple answers I gave. MS. EVANS: Move to strike the answer he
already gave as nonresponsive. BY MS. EVANS: Q Do you have any knowledge whether anyone at TD
Bank discussed the structured settlements with anyone at Emess to the extent that they told that person at Emess the purported defendant would be required to deposit the full amount of the settlement into an account at TD Bank? A I'm sorry. I lost you right after you said
"structured settlement," because as I've explained multiple times, these were not sold as structured settlements. Q Ever.
I'm quoting the Emess complaint filed against
TD Bank in this case. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2047 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A quickly. Q statement? A Q says -A Ms. Evans, I don't mean to interrupt you, but You've have to show me the complaint. Well, I'm going to read it to you. Which, it So would you say that's an inaccurate
I don't understand why people don't want to show me documents. If we're trying to get to the truth, the
easiest thing to do is simply show me the document. I'll tell you whether it's right or wrong. I'm not here to hide anything. I'll tell you.
And I'm going to read you a statement and you
can tell me if you don't understand it or if you can answer the question. The Emess complaint states as following that someone at TD Bank told someone at Emess, "The structured settlements and the" -- discussing the structured settlement, "The purported defendant would be required to deposit the full amount of the settlement into an account at TD Bank. Do you have any knowledge whether anyone at TD Bank told anyone at Emess that particular statement? ALL PRESENT: Objection to form.
You're reading the statement to me too You need to either read it to me again, a United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2048 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 little slower, please. BY MS. EVANS: Q Okay. Be happy to.
"The purported defendant would be required to deposit the full amount of the settlement into an account at TD Bank." Do you know whether anyone at TD Bank made that statement to anyone from Emess? MR. CUSICK: BY MS. EVANS: Q A Do you have personal knowledge of that? I don't have personal knowledge as to whether Form.
that occurred. Q Okay. Do you know -- do you have personal
knowledge of whether anyone at TD Bank told anyone at Emess the purported plaintiff would agree to receive the settlement payout over a period of time, usually four to six months? A Whether someone at TD Bank told someone from
Emess that? Q Do you have personal knowledge whether someone
at TD Bank told someone at Emess that? A I have no knowledge one way or the other.
It's possible that it happened but I have no specific knowledge of that. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2049 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did anyone at TD Bank personally assist you
with hiring and paying gratuities to local police departments for security for yourself? ALL PRESENT: MS. STONE: BY MS. EVANS: Q Did anyone at TD Bank personally help you make Form. Objection. Privileged.
political contributions to local, state, and federal political candidates? MS. STONE: BY MS. EVANS: Q Did anyone at TD Bank personally help you Objection.
purchase expensive real estate, business interests, boats, and exotic cars for yourself? A I remember having a conversation with But to my way of
Mr. Spinosa about real estate values.
thinking, I don't think that's helping me purchase something. Q A Okay. So the answer to the question would be to the
best of my recollection, no. Q To your knowledge, was it Mr. Szafranski who
pitched the deals that you were selling to Mr. Lifshitz? A Q Both of us did. When did you pitch to him? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2050 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don't remember the exact date but it would
be a month to two months prior to the first time he invested. So you can pinpoint the date to within 60
days by looking at the first date of his first deal. Q A Q A Do you know where this took place? I do not. Do you recall -Wait a second. I do have a recollection of I don't know
being in his office in New York someplace.
whether it was Manhattan or one of the boroughs, but I do have a recollection of visiting Mr. Lifshitz's office and also meeting people that were his partners. Whether
they were partners in this business, I don't know, but I do recall going there and meeting with him and being introduced to some of his people. And at that
conversation I did, in fact, speak to Mr. Lifshitz about the settlement business. Q Do you recall what you said to him about the
settlement business in that meeting? A Q I don't recall the specific conversation. Do you remember who you met, the names of
anyone that you met? A Q A I do not. Other than Mr. Lifshitz.
How many people did you meet? As I'm sitting here, I'm picturing United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2051 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Lifshitz sitting behind a desk, me sitting in one of the guest chairs, one of his partners sitting to the right of me, and someone standing elsewhere in the office. Q A Q So Mr. Lifshitz and two. Did you have -And perhaps other people came in and out. Did you have anyone else that you brought
along to that meeting? A There was someone else with me but I don't
recall whether it was -- I don't believe it was anyone from the hedge funds. So I would be guessing. But if
anyone was with me, and I believe someone was always at these meetings with me, it was Mr. Szafranski. Q A Do you remember how long the meeting lasted? It was actually longer than most. We sat for
quite a bit of time. Q How long do most meetings last -- most of
these meetings last? A You're talking about hundreds of meetings. I
do recall sitting with him for an extended period of time. I might meet for an hour with someone. I might
meet for ten minutes with someone.
But I do recall
sitting with Mr. Lifshitz for what I would guess to be over an hour, but it's a guess, discussing both business and personal matters. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2052 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Was that the first time you had met
Mr. Lifshitz to your knowledge? A Q I don't recall. Do you recall how soon after that meeting he
made an investment, or Emess Capital made an investment rather? A Q purchased? A The records would reflect the exact number. I don't recall. Do you know how many deals Emess Capital
No reason to have me guess when the exact number is written in stone in paper. Q A Q So your answer is you don't recall personally? My answer is the answer I just gave. Do you recall personally? That's what I'm
asking you. A What I recall is that there's paper on every And there's a
deal I did with him, so I have a record. record of it. Q
Now, I think you've testified that one of the
things that you needed to keep your scheme going was the trust of your investors. A Q scheme -United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Is that an accurate statement?
I needed to get them to trust me, yes. And they had to trust the legitimacy of the
Page 2053 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q They did. -- in your opinion? Do you recall a time where Mr. Lifshitz asked you if he could speak directly with Mr. Spinosa? A Q A Q I do. And do you recall your reaction to that? I don't. Do you recall ever writing Mr. Lifshitz and
telling him it would be illegal for you to have him speak with Mr. Spinosa about the account? A I certainly may have. It sounds like
something I would have done.
So if you have something
in writing that you can show me, that would refresh my recollection. Q Were there times that you attempted to not
have investors speak with Mr. Spinosa? A Q A Absolutely. Why was that? One of the things I learned during the course Yes.
of this massive crime was that, one, keep your co-conspirators in the dark as to who other co-conspirators are in order to not have them talking to each other about the crime -- would lead to detection. Two, even with your most trusted co-conspirators, do not allow them to talk unnecessarily United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2054 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to an innocent victim. The more they talk, the more
that's said, the greater the chance of detection. Q At the same time, you wanted lots of money in
your scheme, correct? A time." Q One of your primary goals, if not your primary I don't know what you mean, "at the same
goal, was to have investors put a lot of money into your scheme? A Q Correct. And if having an investor talk to Mr. Spinosa
would accomplish that, and if, as you've testified, Mr. Spinosa would do anything you asked him, why not have Mr. Spinosa speak to your investors? A To the best of my recollection, I never said
Mr. Spinosa would do anything that I asked him. Mr. Spinosa served a limited, useful purpose in the course of the conspiracy as a co-conspirator. I
always tried, and the record will reflect that I always tried, to limit each co-conspirator's activity within the crime to exactly what I needed. Q No more, no less.
Was it your perception that there were
limitations to what Mr. Spinosa would do for you? MS. EVANS: Let the record reflect that
Mr. Nurik is writing a note to his client. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2055 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. EVANS: MR. NURIK: I'm sorry, what? Let the record reflect that A If he -MR. NURIK: No. Let the record reflect
that Mr. Nurik is writing a note to Mr. Nurik.
Mr. Nurik is writing a note to Mr. Nurik. MS. EVANS: MR. NURIK: Okay. If you want to see the note,
it relates to a personal matter. MS. EVANS: No. Your client was looking
over his shoulder -MR. NURIK: He may have been looking over
his shoulder but maybe he likes what I'm wearing today. myself. MS. EVANS: Thank you. You can let the But I'm writing a note to
record reflect that as well. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: MR. NURIK: THE WITNESS: It's a nice tie.
Thank you. I think so, too.
Your question was? MS. EVANS: question, please. (Thereupon, the reporter read back the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Can you read back the
Page 2056 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question as recorded above.) A I don't know. He did what I asked of him.
That's all that concerned me. MS. EVANS: And I'm marking as It's a
Exhibit 241, a series of emails. composite exhibit.
(Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 241 for Identification.) BY MS. EVANS: Q Trustee TD 14, 20, 21, 22, and 273. Before you look at this document, just one follow-up question. Did Mr. Spinosa ever give you
direction as to how you should conduct your Ponzi scheme? A Q Say that again. Did Mr. Spinosa ever give you direction as to
how you conducted your Ponzi scheme? A Q No. After you've had a chance to look at this,
just let me know. A Q You want me to read all the papers? We're going to walk through each one of them,
so do you want to just take the first one, talk about it -A If they're in order, let me just go ahead and United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2057 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 out. me. Q Looking at the very first one here, which is take a moment to read it so that I can answer your questions. Q A That's fine. Okay. I've read all the emails that you gave
dated June 26, from Michael Szafranski to you, did you receive this; do you recall? A Q I do. And what do you recall -- let's read it into "I need you to call Damson today,
the record first. please.
He is insulted you have not called him back. His threatening to
Please do it for your little bro.
totally pull out," and the phone number. Do you recall what the circumstances of this email were? A Q No. When you say you recall receiving the email,
what do you recall about receiving the email? A Q A Receiving the email. And why do you recall receiving the email? Because Damson was always threatening to pull That was his big push to get things done the way
he wanted to. Q So it's fair to say his mode of operation was United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2058 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to threaten to pull out of deals? A Q When he wasn't getting what he wanted, yes. What was he not getting what -- as to what he
wanted here? A Q A The things that he lists in these documents. Okay. He's asking Mike for various stuff. Do you That
want to read the entire email into the record.
will tell you what he's not getting and what he's upset about. Q What things in particular do you see there
that he doesn't want, that you recall? A I would have -- let's see. He writes here,
"In yesterday's discussion, we did not bring up the two issues that we have been working on for sometime and they are again problems of credibility for you and me." Q A Q A Q A Q Do you know? He's not getting something that he wants. Do you know what those two issues are? I don't. Okay. Let's see.
Why don't we do this differently --
"You indicated last week that" --- because I think just reading this into the
record doesn't help us very much. A But it actually tells you exactly what it was United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2059 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A remember. he was looking for. Q It sounds like you don't recall from reading
the first email alone what he's looking for there or what he's insulted about; is that correct? about, I guess is the best way to put it? A You want me to now separate out the knowledge Or unhappy
I have from reading the other emails and tell you just what I remember from looking at the first email? Q Here's what I would like you to do. Do you have any independent Look at
the first page.
recollection looking at this email what you should have called him back about or what he wanted you to call him back about? MR. SCHERER: Objection to form.
No, but whenever I did call -- I don't No, I don't.
BY MS. EVANS: Q Look at the next one, June 30th, states, "They He says that he is
are 99 percent sure on the 2.8.
making receipt of that piece of paper you promised him a condition for future fundings. Barry feels unloved.
Why do you promise him -- what did you promise him exactly?" Do you know what piece of paper you promised him that is referring to? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2060 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q insurance? A That actually refreshes my recollection. I do I don't recall specifically. Do you know whether it had to do with
recall him looking for an insurance policy.
But I don't
know that that specifically is what he was looking for. I would be guessing. Q What do you recall about him wanting an
insurance policy? A Somebody brought -- excuse me -- brought up
the fact to him -- excuse me -- that he was -- that other -- other funders were looking for crime fraud insurance. And so he jumped on that bandwagon. When you say "other funders," do you mean
related to Coquina or beyond Coquina investments? A Q were? A The hedge funds, and I believe certain people But I'm not Other than Coquina. And do you recall who those other funders
from the -- Von Allmen, A.J., that group. certain. Q
Now, to your knowledge, had Mr. Damson ever
discussed the deals with anyone at the hedge funds? A I don't know one way or the other. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2061 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ted. Q A Q meeting? A I don't have a specific recollection, no. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 And you recall that happening? I do recall them meeting, yes. Other than that one time, do you recall them Q Do you know whether he ever discussed the
deals with anyone in the Von Allmen group? A Q I don't know. You testified the other day that you recall
that Mr. Damson met Ted Morse at Bova. A Q A Q A He did. Do you recall that? He did. Can you tell me what you recall about that? I just recall them meeting, I don't recall
what the specific conversations were. Q A Do you know why they met there? They met there because Barry Damson was And I saw Ted, to the best of my
spending time with me.
recollection, nearly every single evening of the week at Bova's or some other bar and restaurant. coming to meet me -Q A "He" being who? Barry. He was with me. He would be meeting So if he was
Page 2062 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q At that point in time, to your knowledge, did
Ted Morse know there was a scheme going on related to the deals? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form.
Again, using the word "scheme," I don't recall
what time frame it was, but judging by these emails and when I was doing business with Barry, it is most likely that, yes, Ted knew that there was a fraud going on. BY MS. EVANS: Q To your knowledge, did Ted Morse ever disclose
to Mr. Damson that there was a fraud related to the deals? A Q To my knowledge, no. Turning to the next page, this is July 1,
"Damson wanta the paper." Michael Szafranski writes to you, "He also claims you agreed to send him the Onyx agreement. suspect the latter is inaccurate. force him on the 2.8." Where he refers to the paper in the first sentence, do you know what that is referring to? A Q I do not. Was Mr. Damson at this point in time, to your I
Let me know so I can
recollection, asking for a letter from TD Bank? A I don't recall. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2063 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q insurance? A Q I don't recall. Where he says "I suspect the latter is Do you know if this refers, again, to
inaccurate," do you know what he's referring to? A Yes. Mr. Damson was trying to get a copy of
Onyx's agreement with other funds for which he was doing independent verification and he was attempting to lie to Mikey to try to get me to give it to him. Q A He was attempting to do what? To lie to Michael Szafranski about me agreeing
to give him the document. Q And why was he doing that, because he wanted
the document? A Q Yes. And what was he attempting to find in the
document, if you know? A The amount of finder's fees and the like Mike
was charging other lenders. Q Did he ever express to you that a concern over
the finder's fee related to Mr. Szafranski that was being paid by Coquina? A Q too high? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 I don't recall. Did he ever express to you that he felt it was
Page 2064 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A He frequently spoke to me about the fact that Whether he thought he
Mike was making a lot of money.
was making too much money, I can't tell you. Q A lot of money from Coquina or a lot of money
overall, do you know what his concern was? A I don't think it was a concern. I think it
was commentary. Q Do you know what his commentary meant? How
did you -- what did you understand it to be? A Mike was making a lot of money -- Mike was
making a lot of money all the way around. Q know? A That's why I said it was commentary. You keep Why would that concern Mr. Damson, if you
using the word "concern."
I keep correcting you and
telling you it was commentary. Q Do you have any understanding as to why he was
commenting on it to you? A Q I don't know. How often in the period during which you knew
Mr. Damson did you see him lying? A The only time I recall him lying was when he
was trying to play Mike and I against each other to get something that he wanted. Q Can you tell me instances where that -United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2065 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I considered it more of a business technique Play both sides against the middle
than lying to me.
and ultimately try to achieve your goal. Q Why don't you tell me what instances that you
recall that he played you and Mike against each other by lying? A I don't have any specific recollection other
than what we just looked at. Q When he says to you, let me know so I can
force him on the 2.8, do you know what he's referring to there? A Q A I do. And can you tell me what that is? We needed an infusion of capital into the
Ponzi scheme, and Mike was going to push the 2.8 deal down Damson and Coquina's throat. Q A And did he accomplish that? To the best of my recollection, he did; but
the paper would answer that for you exactly, so I don't want to guess. Q That's fine. I'm asking for your independent
recollection. Looking at Page 22, the middle email, Barry Damson writes to Michael Szafranski, I certainly hope we get these papers before 10:15. I am completely confused
Page 2066 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there? A No. I've never seen this portion of the email as to why there was such a delay, but it doesn't build much confidence. Do you know what delay is being referred to
before, so I have no idea. I don't recall seeing it, unless it was a attached to this email up above. Q Did you have problems with the deals ever
being delayed? A Well, there were no real deals, so I don't
know what you mean "the deals being delayed." Q Well, did you set dates with investors at
which point you would provide them -- you would acknowledge to them that there was funding that had happened for a deal, a fake deal? A I don't recall ever having a problem telling a That was very easy
client that the funds were in house. to phony up.
I recall there being delay in getting paperwork to an investor. Q knowledge? A Q I would be guessing. Where Mr. Damson says "it doesn't build much United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Did that ever happen with Coquina, to your
Page 2067 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A confidence" here, did he complain to you about having a lack of confidence, that you recall? MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
He -- he talked to me frequently about making
sure that we maintained creditability, that was the speech he utilized to get me to do the fake plaintiff signing in front of him, which he did not know was fake, obviously. But to get to see a plaintiff go through the documents, that it would build credibility, I think that was one of his speeches that he gave. Q Did he want credibility, to your
understanding, for himself or for others? A that. Q I would have to get inside his head to know I don't know one way or the other. He did not express to you from whom he was
seeking creditability? A Q A Q He may have. You don't recall? I don't have a specific recollection. If you'll turn to the last page. Yesterday's -I think you
began to read it: A Q I did.
-- discussion, we did not bring up the two
items that we had been working on for sometime, and they United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2068 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A are, again, problems of credibility for you and me. Do you recall, from looking at this email, what the two items were? A Q Give me a moment to go back through the email. If you need to read it to see if that
refreshes your recollection, certainly. A Okay. One of the issues was with regard to
transferring funds from an unsegregated account to a segregated account and getting a bank statement. He's looking for the bank statement. Mike to send it to him. And he's looking for a $100,000 payment coming due to him, that was due to him. Q payment? A traffic. Q Assuming there is no email traffic, do you I don't recall. You'd have to check the email What were the circumstances of that $100,000 He wants
have any independent recollection of what the $100,000 was owed for? MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
I would be guessing.
BY MS. EVANS: Q A That means you have no recollection? It means I would be guessing. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you know if at this point in time,
October 14th, based on this email, you had represented to Mr. Damson that investment funds were in a segregated account? A I recall having conversations with Mr. Damson I don't recall that specific
about segregated accounts. conversation. Q A
What conversations do you recall? I recall that they wanted their money in a
segregated account, but they didn't want it combined with other people's funds. And I recall setting up an account at TD Bank. I believe it was TD 11. Q A Q A We called it TD 11, Coquina.
Did you personally set that up? No. Who set it up? I had people that set up the bank accounts,
either Bill Brock or Irene Stay. Q knowledge? A I don't have a specific recollection. All you When would that have been set up, to your
have to do is check the account opening paperwork. Q You said you recall an account by the name TD
11, Coquina being set up; what do you recall? A Actually, it would have been RRA 11, not TD: United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2070 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 up? A issues. I recall that it was set up without any That was the beauty of TD Bank; they never RRA 11, Coquina. Q And what do you recall about that being set
asked any questions. MS. EVANS: Move to strike the last
portion of that question (sic) as unresponsive. BY MS. EVANS: Q Do you recall when that was that that account
was set up again, independently? A Q A I already said I don't. Who at your firm set up accounts at TD Bank? Bill Brock, Irene Stay, there may have others;
I don't recall at this moment. Q Who are the people at your firm who were
signatories on any law firm account at TD Bank? A I was always a signatory. Stu Rosenfeldt, to
my recollection, was always a signatory, unless it was a personal account for me. And then it would have varied. It could have
been -- Debra Villegas could have been a signatory. Irene Stay could have been a signatory. David Boden
could have been a signatory, maybe even Grant Smith or United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2071 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there. Russ Adler or Steve Lippman; but, again, this is -- it's very easy to see, just look at the account records and you can tell. I had 20-some-odd, almost 30 bank accounts I don't recall who the signatories were,
specifically. Q Do you recall, with respect to the letters
that Mr. Spinosa signed for you at one point in time, the letters referred to you as having a signatory authority over the RRA accounts? A Q A You mean me, as opposed to me and Stu? Correct. Yes, and I remember there being an issue with
that from one of our people that we were giving the phony lock letters to. Q A Can you tell me what you recall about that? Yes. Someone wrote something to us, an email
to us, saying, basically, what happens if Scott is incapacitated or dies. So I went to Stu and said, I'm And we added him to
going to add you to these letters. the letters. Q
And that was the purpose, to give some
assurance to an investor of adding -- the purpose of adding Mr. Rosenfeldt's name to the letter was to provide assurance and to the investors; is that correct? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2072 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. MR. SCHERER: BY MS. EVANS: Q A Ms. Evans. Do you remember which investor? I don't. Email traffic would tell you, Object to the form.
There should be an email with someone
specifically requesting it, because I remember once they requested it, we left it in the letter as long as Mr. Spinosa was doing those letters for us. Q Do you know if it was Mr. Lifshitz that
requested that? A It's very possible. MR. SCHERER: BY MS. EVANS: Q A Why is that possible? Because he is an investor. I have already That means, Object to form.
told you one of the investors requested it. since Mr. Lifshitz is in the group we'll call
"investors," it's possible that he is the one who asked for it. Q A Among many investors? I -- and the easiest way to do it, is just
look at the email traffic and it will tell you, because I remember someone saying, what happens if I die or am incapacitated. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2073 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And do you recall if, indeed, Mr. Rosenfeldt
was a signator on the accounts for which those letters were written? A You'd have to look at the accounts. I would
be guessing. I intended him to be a signatory. thing to do is check the signature cards. Q What I'm asking for in a lot of these The easiest
questions is your independent recollection. A I understand that, but I really want to make You have so much paper
sure that this record is clear.
evidencing these things, so I -- I want to make sure that you also know that there is another way to make sure you can get that. I understand you're trying to So let me answer
see what I remember and what I don't.
your question directly now that I've told you that. I don't have a specific recollection as to whether or not he actually signed the signature card because I didn't bring the signature cards in to him; but it was my absolute intention to have him be a signatory. Q TD Bank? A Q Yes. So you did on occasion? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Do you recall ever signing a signator card for
Page 2074 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A On occasion, yes. I was brought a lot of
papers every day to sign, but I do recall signing signator cards. MS. EVANS: Exhibit 242 is Coquina 875.
(Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 242 for Identification.) BY MS. EVANS: Q Now, this particular email, I think it may
have an email on the -A Q It does. I was looking -- thanks.
Does this remind you that the piece of paper
that Barry wanted in the other July 1 email may have been insurance? my question. A It doesn't refresh it one way or other. He Does this refresh your recollection, is
was looking for a lot of different things.
Remember, we
also read about the fact that he was looking for the Onyx agreement. paperwork. statement. Q What would the crime fraud insurance have done He may have been looking for deal
He may have been looking for a bank
for Mr. Damson, if you know? A If I stole money, or anyone else from my firm
stole money, it would cover t. Q And that was really the sole purpose of it, United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2075 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correct? A I don't know. I would have to get inside his
head to know what his purpose was. I am telling you what my understanding of it was from my perspective. do, you have to ask him. Q And you never got the insurance for him, I What he was thinking it would
believe you testified; is that correct? A ma'am. Q A Q A Did you try to secure it? Very lackadaisically. Was it your goal not to secure it? I couldn't have cared one way or the other. The fact is that whatever I never secured crime fraud insurance, no,
It wasn't instrumental to me.
I needed to do to continue keeping the Ponzi scheme from exploding, that's what I was going to do. Ultimately,
if someone pushed me to get it, I would have continued to try to get it. Q At some point in time did Mr. Damson stop
pushing you to get it? A Q I don't recall him ever stopping, no. Exhibit 243, was produced, but it does not But it was an email from Scott
have a Bates number.
Rothstein to Mel@DSEquities.com and the subject is United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2076 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A "Frank" and the date is September 9, 2009. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 243 for Identification.) BY MS. EVANS: Q This email from you to Mel says -- well, let Is this Mel Lifshitz; do you know?
me ask you first: A Q It is.
It says, he cannot -- well, let's look at the
email below it first. Scott, please have him confirm on call 20 million his account on Wednesday, Thanks Mely. subject is "Frank." Do you know what Mely is referring to there? Yes. Can you tell me? He wants to speak to Frank and have Frank The
verbally confirm the $20 million hit the account. Q And looking at the top email: He cannot.
That is a crime.
We discussed this when we first
started, and we discussed it when I called earlier. Mike is the only one who can confirm this. apologies, but I will not break the law. Do you recall the circumstances of that? I do. Can you tell me about them? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 My
Page 2077 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A I was making an attempt to keep Mel from
discussing anymore with Frank than they had to discuss. Q A Q What did you mean by "that is a crime"? I made that up. Did you have any idea what you meant by "that
is a crime"? A That he would be discussing someone else's
account information. Q A Did you tell Mel Lifshitz that? I likely did, yes, because Mel was not one to He would generally speak
just take an email like this.
to me afterwards and tell me about it. Q Again, you don't have any specific
recollection of saying that, though? A Q I don't know. Do you know what he did upon receiving this?
Did he go away and not ask about it anymore? A Q A Q I don't recall. Do you know whether Frank ever spoke to him? I don't recall. Did you ask Mr. Spinosa to speak with him with
respect to this issue? MR. SCHERER: Objection to form. I do not recall.
I do not recall.
BY MS. EVANS: United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2078 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So to your knowledge, Frank Spinosa did not
speak with him -MR. SCHERER: ALL PRESENT: BY MS. EVANS: Q A -- with respect to that particular email? He may have. He may have; he may not have. I Object to form. Object.
just don't recall. Q Do you know if Ms. Caretsky ever spoke with
anyone from Emess Capital? A Q I do not. Do you know if she ever met with anyone from
Emess Capital? A Q I have no specific recollection. Same question with respect to Ricardo Mejia,
do you know if he ever met anyone from Emess Capital? A Q I don't have a specific recollection of that. Do you know if he ever spoke with anyone from
Emess Capital? A Q I don't have a specific recollection. Same question for Matthew Brennan, do you know
if he ever met anyone from Emess Capital? A no, ma'am. Q And do you know if he ever spoke with anyone United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 I don't have a specific recollection of that,
Page 2079 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A from Emess Capital? A Q I don't have a specific recollection. When Mr. Brock visited the bank for what you
have described or what's been called "shows," can you tell me what he did at any one of the "shows"? MR. SCHERER: Objection to form. I don't know.
I wasn't there.
BY MS. EVANS: Q When he went to the so-called "shows," did you
tell him what he should do? A Q Yes. What did you tell him? MR. SCHERER: Objection to form.
From time to time I told him to make sure that From time to
the statements got in with the letters.
time I told him to check real account balances for me. I mean, he was doing a lot of different things for me. Are you talking about, did I give him specific directions each time? BY MS. EVANS: Q A traffic. Q You would have sent him an email and told him Yes. If I did, it should be reflected in email
precisely what to do each time? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2080 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Not precisely, no. Would you have told him what to do in an email
before he went every time? A Every time, I don't believe so. We spoke
frequently, also.
I mean, he would come downstairs when
we were preparing the phony bank statements, and he and I and Deb would be sitting there together, looking at the bank statements making sure they look accurate, so we might discuss it at that point in time, also. Q Did there come a time, to your knowledge, when
the bank changed systems, what they referred to as their "system integration"? A It seems to ring a bell, but I don't have a That doesn't mean it
specific recollection of that. didn't happen. Q
Do you know if you were ever informed by
email, or anyone at your firm, that the bank had changed its systems? A I would imagine that if we -- that occurred,
that I would be informed by email; but I don't recall seeing that email. recollection. Q Do you have any knowledge whether or not the If you have it, it would refresh my
bank's form of its account balance statements changed after the bank systems were integrated? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2081 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Now that you say that, I do recall something
changing with regard to the format of some bank statement and us having to utilize Curtis Renie and Bill Corte to reformat something, Deb and Bill working with them, but I don't have a specific recollection as to what that is. Ms. Evans. Q Okay. Do you have any independent There should be email traffic as to that,
recollection of what occurred with respect to asking Curtis Renie to deal with the change? A Q I don't. Do you know whether you changed your fake form
of bank account statements at any point in time with respect to the form of it? A I don't recall one way or the other. I
certainly may have.
If it was necessary to continue my
fraud, I most likely would have; but I would be guessing without seeing the actual paperwork. Q Do you know if you ever gave investors fake
forms at a point in time when TD Bank's forms looked different? A I would hope that I didn't back then. That
certainly would have been a fear of mine, but it's certainly possible that I did. Q Did you ever worry that in sending fake United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2082 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A letters or forms by email to someone, that they might be able to just click on properties and see that it was a fake letter? A Did I have that specific worry? I don't
recall specifically worrying about that; but given the massive nature of the crime I was committing, the sheer number of people involved, I think you can safely say I worried pretty much about everything that could possibly go wrong; but I don't have a specific recollection of that specific item. Q You took a lot of risks? MR. SCHERER: I definite -MS. EVANS: MR. SCHERER: What was wrong with the form? About 400 times he's Object to the form.
answered that question throughout this to you, to all your lawyers that you are paying for the various parties, for everybody else; and I -- you know, I don't know, after the seventh day in deposition, you're just trying to wear the guy out. I'm going to object to the form
when you're doing repetitive, nonsensical questions just to run the clock. that's my objection. MS. EVANS: Thank you for oration, Mr. And so
Page 2083 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Scherer. ALL PRESENT: Join in the objection on
behalf of Emess Capital. MS. EVANS: I'm sorry, what? Join in the objection
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: on behalf of Emess. MS. EVANS:
I'll take my time.
I mean,
you took a week, and you're getting paid quite handsomely as I understand. BY MS. EVANS: Q So the next question -MR. SCHERER: At least I ask interesting
stuff that was pertinent. MR. SCHNAPP: it off. MR. SCHERER: Since we're going back and Bill, why don't you knock
forth, we'll make it interesting here, I'll be happy to do it. MS. EVANS: I think you're wasting
valuable time here, Mr. Scherer. MR. SCHERER: MS. EVANS: You should know that. It's really inappropriate to
be uncivil, and I hope that you'll -MR. SCHERER: MR. LICHTMAN: You asked and I -Hold on. Hold on. Time
Page 2084 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 out. It's not that I'm the moderator here,
but I've taken a lot of responsibility over the deposition. Everybody has worked hard. here for a lot of days. We have been
Let's all just tone Okay?
it down now and get back to questions. MS. EVANS: Mr. Lichtman. BY MS. EVANS: Q I think that's fair, Thank you.
I'm going to read out some names to your, and
I would just like to know whether or not you know any of these individuals, if you can tell me that. It's a
fairly long list, but I need to ask because there -it's a fairly long list of people that -A Let me just get this -- are you done? Were you done? I
didn't mean to cut you off.
Let me just get this clarification so you don't go through the list and have to go through it again. Q A Yes? You need to define the word "know" for me. Does Does
Does "know" mean I have met them personally?
"know" mean I have talked to them over the phone?
"know" mean I may have heard their name in conversation? If you clarify it for me, then I'll answer United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2085 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your list; and please don't tell me you want to do it three times with each of those definitions. Q Actually, what I'm going to do is ask you to
tell me a couple of things, so we have don't have to go through this three times. A Q Okay. In other words, if the name means anything to
you, if you either read their name, heard their name or you met the person, I would like to know. A Q I'll give you the specifics as to each person. Okay. There is a second question that I have
with respect to that. If you know the person, I would also like to know whether or not they had any contact with TD Bank related to your fraud. A Okay. Knew me and whether they contacted TD
Bank -- had any contact with them at all? Q A Q With respect to your fraud. Right. Right. Okay. I got you, I think.
And the knew-you part -- I don't want to
complicate this -- is -A Q Oh, no. -- the name rings a bell, have you seen their
name connected with your fraud. A I got the program. I'll be as clear as I
Page 2086 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 possibly can. MR. SCHERER: BY MS. EVANS: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Amy Adams? I do not know who that is. Okay. Frank Adams? Object to the form.
I do not know who that is. Scott Adams? I do not know who that is. Joseph Anania, A-N-A-N-I-A? I do not know who that is. Janice Anania? I do not know who that is. Ed Andricola, A-N-D-R-I-C-O-L-A? Unknown to me. Mary Andricola? Unknown to me. William Annechini, A-N-N-E-C-H-I-N-I? That name rings a bell, but I don't know why. If it comes to mind while we're talking, will
you let me know? A Q A Annechini: Yes. Clair Annechini? Same answer with regard to the other Rings a bell but I don't know who or why. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2087 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Veronica Bekkedam. I'm sorry? Veronica Bekkedam? The name "Bekkedam" I know, but I don't know
who Veronica is. Q with them? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A No. Peter Benedict of Vero Beach, Florida? Unknown to me. The Benedict Foundation? Unknown to me. Harry Booth, B-O-O-T-H? Unknown to me. Antoinette Booth? Unknown to me. Anthony Bonomo? Let me just get this clarification. That does not mean that I did not meet these people at a meet-and-greet; it's just that I have no knowledge of meeting them. Q A Q A Okay. Okay. Go ahead, next one. The Belk Foundation, B-E-L-K. Any connection
Anthony Bonomo, B-O-N-O-M-O? Unknown to me. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2088 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q located. A Q A Q A Don't know. Edward Carlisle? Unknown to me. Carmen Caruso? The name Caruso rings a bell, but I think Mary Ellen Bonomo? Unknown to me. Hugh Brennan, B-R-E-N-N-A-N? Rings a bell, not sure why. Scottsdale, Arizona, that's where he is
that's because I had a friend whose last name was Caruso. Q So I'm going to say that's unknown to me. She resides in Gulph, G-U-L-P-H, Mills,
Pennsylvania; does that ring a bell? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q No, now it's unknown to me. Okay. Fred Davis?
Unknown to me. Pat Davis, P-A-T? Unknown to me. Eugene Dowd, D-O-W-D? Unknown to me. Charles Farrell? Unknown to me. Ruth Farrell? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2089 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Unknown to me. Dr. Herbert Feinberg of Englewood, New Jersey? Unknown to me. Steven Fink, F-I-N-K? Unknown to me. Brian Graden? Unknown to me. G-R-A-D-E-N. William Hauser, H-A-U-S-E-R? Unknown to me. Judd Klement, K-L-E-M-E-N-T? Unknown to me. Amy Rowe Klement? Unknown to me. The McFadzean -- and that's spelled
M-C-F-A-D-Z-E-A-N -- 1998 Trust? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Unknown to me. Arla, A-R-L-A, Mertz, M-E-R-T-Z? Unknown to me. Barbara Mitchell? Unknown to me. Pauline Monson? Unknown to me. Nancy Paley, P-A-L-E-Y, of Aspen, Colorado? The Paley family I have heard of. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 I believe
Page 2090 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that they have some relation to the group that came in with the Von Allmens. it is. And I don't remember whether I heard the name before or after the Ponzi exploded. Q That was -- you anticipated my next question: Other than that, I don't know who
Is that something that you uncovered since the -- or learned since the Ponzi scheme? A Q I can't tell you one way or the other. Do you know if there are any clients of Mr.
Scherer that are named "Paley" in the Razorback matter? A Q I just don't remember. Have you ever met any of the Paleys that are
related to the fraud? A Q them? A Q A Q A Q A Q I do not know. Paulette Perhacs, P-E-R-H-A-C-S? Unknown to me. Daniel Radomski, R-A-D-O-M-S-K-I? Spell the last name again. R-A-D-O-M-S-K-I. Unknown to me. Frederick Rosen, R-O-S-E-N? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 I don't believe I did, no. Do you know if anyone from TD Bank ever met
Page 2091 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q A I don't remember. Lawrence Rovin, R-O-V-I-N? Larry Rovin? Merion, Pennsylvania. I met him. Can you tell me when you met Mr. Rovin? I don't remember when I met him, but I met him
during the time that there was due diligence going on with the Bekkedam/Ballamor folks. Q A office. Q A You met him only once? I don't remember how many times I spoke to him Where did you meet him? To the best of my recollection, it was in my
on the phone, as well. Q Okay. Going back to your office, do you know
when that occurred? A Q A Q I do not. Do you recall what you discussed? Due diligence issues. When you say "due diligence issues," can you
be more specific? A We discussed what was going to go on when
there were audits of the Ballamor and Bekkedam paperwork, the BIF paperwork. He asked me questions
Page 2092 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 any. Q Did it concern you that they were about the settlement strategy. Q That's basically it.
Do you recall what relationship he had to
Barry Bekkedam, if any? A My understanding was he was Bekkedam group's
general counsel, that he would be handling the due diligence, overseeing it and handling audits. Q audit? A When you referred to an audit, what type of What knowledge did you gain about an audit? I actually gained none because they never did
contemplating an audit? A Yes, anything like that would, you know,
concern me in the middle of what I was doing; but it turned out to be an unnecessary fear because they never did anything related to an audit. Q Do you recall what questions he had about the
settlement? A Q if any? A It was insignificant. I don't recall him I don't. Do you recall what due diligence he performed,
asking very many questions. Q A Do you know how long you met with him? I do not. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2093 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you take him out to lunch or dinner; do
you recall? A Q I actually don't recall eating with him. Okay. You said you also had a phone call with
him, just one phone call? A I likely just talked to him on the phone, but It seems
I don't remember if I did or how many times.
to me that I would have spoken to him on the phone. Q A After your meeting? Yes, and I may have emailed with him, as well.
I seem to recall sending him emails, but I don't recall the context. Q Okay. All right. Do you recall the context
of any phone call that you had with him? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I do not. Richard Ruch, R-U-C-H? Don't remember. Ivan Scharer, S-C-H-A-R-E-R? I don't remember. Jay Scharer? Don't remember. Thomas Schirmer, S-C-H-I-R-M-E-R? I don't remember. Stacy Selverne, S-E-L-V-E-R-N-E? I seem to recall seeing that name after the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2094 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ponzi scheme exploded, but I don't have any other recollection of who that is. Q A Do you know with whom you saw it? No. Here's the thing you should know: All the
names you have read to me may be on a list of the victims of my crimes, so I may have seen them, and it could be that I just don't remember the names. Q A Okay. Michael Selverne, S-E-L-V-E-R-N-E? I
That's going to be the same answer:
remember hearing the name, but I don't remember where or why. Q Group? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q I do not remember. Marc Smith? Do not remember. William Spink, S-P-I-N-K? Do not remember. Duce, D-U-C-E, Staley, S-T-A-L-E-Y? Do not remember. Eileen Taylor? Do not remember. We're moving down in the alphabet, so we're Okay. Seravalli, S-E-R-A-V-A-L-L-I, Financial
getting there. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2095 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A That's okay. Donald Travis, T-R-A-V-I-S? Do not remember. Kim Tuski, T-U-S-K-I? Do not remember. Brent Ware, W-A-R-E? Do not remember. Judy Ware? Do not remember. Scott Ware? I don't know why that name is ringing a bell
to me, but I don't know who that is. Q A Q Franklin, Tennessee? No, it's not ringing a bell. I asked you this the other day, but I want to Whiteoak Global Advisors?
give you the full name: A Q A Q
Say that, again, I'm sorry? Whiteoak Global Advisors, LLC? Doesn't ring a bell. Nick Worontzoff. Worontzoff -- I'm going to
spell that for you because I am not doing a very good job of pronouncing it: A Q A W-O-R-O-N-T-Z-O-F-F?
Don't remember. Debra Zuccanari? Don't remember. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2096 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Joe. Q A Q A Banyan. Q Okay. Do you recall anything about him or his Andre Haddock? Don't remember. Joe Da Salva or Da Silva? That name rings a bell, some relation to
relation to Banyan? A George Levin had a relative whose name was I just don't know if that was Joe Da Silva. It
may have been; and if it was that person, I did meet him in Mr. Levin's office. Q Do you recall this person whose name you're
not sure of in Mr. Levin's office, what you met about with this person? A No. But I was in Mr. Levin's -- Mr. Preve's I recall someone named Joe being I
offices frequently.
there and the person being introduced as a relative. don't know whether it was an in-law or a cousin. I
don't recall what it may have been; but I recall meeting someone, Joe. For some reason I'm recalling that the
last name was Da Silva, but I can't be certain for you. Q During the Ponzi, did Mr. Preve have a
different office from Mr. Levin, or did they have an office in the same place? A No. It was in the same place, next to each United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2097 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A other. Q How often would you say you were in
Mr. Levin's office during that period of time? A When you say "Levin," you mean the entire
Banyan operation or specifically in his office, within his offices? Q The entire Banyan operation. MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
The entire Banyan Offices, I was there
frequently. BY MS. EVANS: Q A Q Weekly? At least weekly, yes. Was it daily? MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
There were times when I was there daily.
BY MS. EVANS: Q A Okay. But unless I -- I will tell you this: Unless
they were on vacation, not available, I was there at least once a week. Q there? A Q Infrequently. So you would there generally to see Mr. Preve; United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 How often when you were there, was Mr. Levin
Page 2098 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 A shows. is that accurate? A Q every day? A Unless he was -- there was -- there were a few Ninety percent of the time. Is it fair to say you talked with Mr. Preve
times when he was having dental surgery and when he was in the hospital having something else done, other than that, at least during the weekdays, I spoke to him -- I would say, better than 80, 85 percent of the time I spoke to him on a daily basis. Q Anthony Degennaro, does that name mean
anything to you? A Q A Q It rings a bell, but I don't know why. You've never met him, as far as you know? I don't remember. You don't recall ever asking TD Bank to speak
with him, either, anyone at TD Bank? A Q TD Bank? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form. I don't remember that. How often did you utilize conference rooms at
Whenever I needed them, and only for the I didn't go in there to use them for any other
purpose.
Page 2099 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A BY MS. EVANS: Q And there was an objection to the form, so let
me ask the question differently. How often did you go into a conference -- any conference room at TD Bank, at the TD Bank Weston branch? ALL PRESENT: Same objection.
Only for some of the shows --
BY MS. EVANS: Q A Q A Q Okay. -- not even all of the shows. Do you remember how many times you went there? I would be guessing. I do not know.
Can you describe the conference room for me at
the Weston branch? A in it. It was fairly large. It had a nice size table
It had windows, looking out into the -- into the
branch itself. Q So you could see, from the branch, itself,
into the conference room; is that correct? A Q A Q Yes. Did it have a glass wall? That's what it appeared to be to me, yes. Do you recall what investors you met in a
conference room at the TD Bank Weston branch? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A I don't. I don't have a specific
recollection. Q Do you recall the names of all investors that
you brought to the TD Bank Weston branch? A Q I do not. Do you recall any names of any investors that
you brought to the TD Bank Weston branch? A Q I can give it a shot for you. A shot as to the ones you specifically recall
would be helpful. A Okay. MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
To the best of my recollection, I brought --
are we talking the Weston now? BY MS. EVANS: Q A Yes. Ira Sochet, Jack Simony, Michael Szafranski, I'm
Barry Damson, that's all I recall at this moment. certain there are more. Q
Did you take Barry Damson inside the TD Bank
Weston branch? A I don't recall whether we just pulled up and I
went in and got something or he actually went in with me. Q Do you have a recollection of having taken him United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not. Q And same question to Mel Klein, did you ever in? A I don't. I only have a recollection of
bringing him to -- my specific recollection is bringing him to Spinosa's office up on Cypress Creek. So it's
possible that I'm mistaken, but for some reason, I think before we ever went to Cypress Creek, at some point in time prior to that, we went to the branch itself. don't recall whether he came in with me or not. Q Do you recall Mr. Damson ever asking you to But I
visit a TD Bank branch, asking you to take him to visit a TD Bank branch? A I would be guessing. I believe he did, but I
don't know one way or the other. Q Did you ever take Kathleen White to a TD Bank
branch, any of them? A I don't recall whether I did specifically or
take him to any specific TD Bank branch? A Q I may have. I don't recall.
You don't recall. With respect to Mr. Szafranski, how many times
did you accompany him to a TD Bank branch? A Q More than several. But you don't recall the specific number? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 did? A Q Yes. Okay. Jack Simony, did you take him to the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 A Q A Q A Q A I do not. And why did you take him to a TD Bank branch? To verify balances. Did you have investors with you, as well -I may have. -- on those occasions? I may have. You'd have to ask the investors.
I just don't have a specific recollection. Q When you say "to verify balances," did you go Did one of you go up to a teller and What occurred?
up to a teller?
ask for a balance? A No.
But I do recall Mike Szafranski lying to an investor and telling an investor -- I think I actually saw it in an email, and I remember actually discussing it at some point in time with Mike -- that he had told an investor that he had verified balances at a teller window, which he never did -- we never did. Q And you know that he never did how? How do
you know that? A Q Because I discussed it with him; he never did. So you're relying on his word that he never
Page 2103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Weston branch? A Q branch? A Q Yes. And just to round it out, did you ever take I believe I said I did. Okay. Yes, I believe I did.
Did you also take him to the Deerfield
him to the 17th Street branch? A Q I don't recall one way or the other. Okay. How many times did you take Mr. Sochet
to the Weston branch? A There is only one time that I remember, off
the top of my head, driving out there with him. Q Did he meet anyone at that time at the branch
to your recollection, any TD Bank employee? A I don't have a specific recollection one way If someone was available to say hey to
or the other.
him, yes, but you'd have to ask him. MS. EVANS: Okay. Would you like to take
a brief break for about five minutes? THE WITNESS: MS. EVANS: THE WITNESS: If you would like to, yes. I have a request for one. Sure.
(Whereupon, a recess was had.) MS. EVANS: MR. NURIK: Ready. Excuse me, Ms. Evans, before
Page 2104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we begin, I want to put something on the record. MS. EVANS: MR. NURIK: Certainly. The amended protocol order
regarding the deposition of Scott Rothstein, specifically paragraph six, says that paragraph 11 of the protocol order is amended to the extent that all parties are required to exchange the exhibits that they reasonably expect to introduce at their respective depositions to all appropriate counsel by 5:00 p.m. on December 8th, 2011, through email PDFs, and then it provides how they should be numbered. It is my understanding that I, as representative of Mr. Rothstein, as his counsel, and since Mr. Rothstein is a party, I have not received all the exhibits from all counsel pursuant to this order. Therefore, I am specifically requesting that today, your offices immediately email me all of the exhibits that you expect to introduce in in your questioning of my client going forward and to the extent that you have any of these exhibits present with you now, United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2105 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that you can provide a copy to me in advance of my client being deposed on these matters. I am requesting that. I believe it's required by the court order, and I don't understand why that was not done beforehand by all counsel. I am not looking to interfere with or suspended or delay this deposition, but I want it clearly understood that if I do not receive that by the end of the day today from your offices, that I will seek immediate relief from the Court. MS. EVANS: Do you know if you were on
the distribution list? MR. NURIK: It does not appear I was on
the complete distribution list, and whether I was on the distribution list or not, I think this order supersedes any mistakes that may have been made in the distribution list. So I'm not blaming anybody; I'm just, at this point, making sure that, going forward, this order is complied with. MS. EVANS: As a matter of helping you A lot of
out, let me ask you this:
individuals set up a site because it is such a United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 voluminous amount of documents, your whole system could crash, do you want to give folks some email address or site -MR. NURIK: Yes, my -- well, my email It's Marc,
address everybody should have.
M-A-R-C at Nurik Law, N-U-R-I-K-L-A-W, dot com. If you want to provide me in the morning with hard copies, that would be ideal, as well. I don't know if there's a site that you can direct my staff to go to. The problem is,
at this point, I may not have enough copy machines to make hard copies if everybody is going to be loading this on to me now. I just want to make this as matter of record and ask that you all comply with my request. Thank you. I'm also going to join in in This is Casey Cusik on We haven't been
MR. CUSICK:
Mr. Nurik's comments.
behalf of Emess Capital.
provided with copies of any of the exhibits used by any of the parties in this deposition. We have made requests to counsel for the trustee for copies of those exhibits. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Those
Page 2107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 requests have been unanswered. We would
request that we be given immediate copies -immediately given copies of the exhibits used today by TD and yesterday, as well, before the end of the day, along with the copies of all of the other exhibits used the deposition. I'll provide my email address for the record, which is C-C-U-S-I-C-K at Kluger, K-L-U-G-E-R, Kaplan, K-A-P-L-A-N, dot com. And if there's a distribution list that we were supposed to be a part of, we were not aware of it. We are now aware of it, and if
there is information that can be given to us in this regard, we would like to receive it. Thank you. MR. NURIK: I also would request copies
of what has been used so far to date be provided to me, as well. Thank you. MS. EVANS: BY MS. EVANS: Q Mr. Rothstein, do you recall at any point in Thank you.
time -- well, actually not any point in time -- in 2009, an IRS audit of RRA? A No, ma'am. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ms. Evans, during the break I also remembered that I took Ted Morse. everything. It was at the very end of
I took Ted Morse to TD Bank.
So the list that I provided to you as to who I actually took out there, would be to the best of my recollection; there may be more people that I took out there. Q When you say it was at the end of things, do
you recall what month? A It should be reflected on the -- it would have
been the same day, actually, as the phony order that I did in the Jan Jones case. Q I don't recall specifically.
Do you recall why you took Ted -- was it to
the Weston branch? A Q It was. Do you recall why you took Ted to the Weston
branch that day? A Q Pick up a statement. Okay. Why? What kind of bank statement were
you picking up? A Q A fake one. And was Mr. Morse aware of the fraud going on
at that point in time? A He was -ALL PRESENT: Object to the form.
Page 2109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. EVANS: Q Why did you take Mr. Morse, who knew of the
fraud at that time, to a TD Bank branch to pick up a statement? A Two reasons. One, we needed plausible
deniability, so he could tell his father he went to the bank; and also, more than that, I needed the original cover letter. Q A And you needed the original cover letter why? Because I needed to turn the original cover
letter that -- Carol Morse was demanding originals of everything, so I needed to get originals. Q The statement that you picked up at TD Bank, You said you pick the up a
did you use it for anything?
cover letter and a statement; is that correct, an account statement? A Q Cover letter and fake bank statements. You went to TD Bank and they gave you a fake
bank statement? A visit. Q Did Ted Morse rely on anything, to your I don't recall the exact circumstances of that
knowledge, that he received that day that you received from TD Bank? A Ted Morse? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Yes. No. Because Ted knew that there wasn't
sufficient funds in that account. Q The next exhibit I don't believe was produced
as part of the exhibits, but we will -A I'm sorry, I didn't hear you Ms. Evans, you
said this was not produced? Q I am mumbling. Give me just a second, and I
will make it more articulate, hopefully. A Q That's okay. Let's mark this 244. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 244 for Identification.) BY MS. EVANS: Q 244 is a March 11th, 2009, email from Mark
Thaw, and at the top it says, the IRS has asked to see the tax returns of the officers of this company. have that right. They will agree W-2, 1099, etc., They
really no big deal, and it has been done by Lisa sending her info direct to the agent. The agent is a reasonable
nitpicker and, therefore, I needed the minute book and the rest of the legal stuff as set forth in only one and two below. Call first to discuss. Can you tell me, was there any IRS audit in 2009 of your -- does that remind you that there was an United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 audit? A There was no audit of Rothstein, Rosenfeldt &
Adler in 2009. Q to know. A Q A Do you want to know what this email is? No, that's all I needed to know. I want the record to reflect that this is Carlos Lisa is Okay. And do you -- okay. That's all I need
regarding Southern Grouts & Mortars audit.
Flores is the CFO of Southern Grouts & Mortars.
Ron Picou's executive vice president and daughter. Q A Q Okay. It has nothing to do with RRA. You said that -- you testified that when Bill
Brock went to the bank, that you never saw him switch a document; is that correct? A I was never with Bill at the bank during what
I'm call the "pre-show," so I don't -- I can't tell you what he did there. Q A walked in. When I walked in, someone from the bank would hand it to me. Q Everything else, I'm guessing. Okay. I can only tell you what occurred when I
Would hand an envelope to you? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. Did you ever see someone from the bank
physically switch a document in the envelope? A Q No, ma'am. You don't have any personal knowledge, do you,
of who switched any documents in the envelope, do you? A Q I do not. Now, you had a meeting in September at the
Cypress branch -- strike that. I think there was one name I left off of the list that I wanted to ask you, actually. A Q A Q Sure. Do you know Barry Florescu? I do. Okay. Can you tell me what your relationship
during the fraud was with Barry Florescu? A Barry Florescu was a legitimate investor,
innocent investor, brought into the Ponzi scheme through what I'll call the Boden/Pearson group. He was brought
in by Andrew Barnett under the Boden umbrella and -- to invest in the fraud. Q A Q A Do you ever meet with him -Yes. -- Mr. Florescu? Yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 him? A I remember him coming to my office with Q A How many times? Several, actually, because I had met him prior
to all of this, meaning his investment on a casual basis at friends' homes. Q Who pitched the scheme to or the deals to
Mr. Florescu, as far as you know? A Q It would have been Boden and Mr. Barnett. Do you have any knowledge of whether
Mr. Florescu ever questioned the deals in any fashion? A Q A length. Q And how did you gain that understanding from I do. Can you tell me about that? My understanding is that he questioned it at
someone who I believed to be was his lawyer, meeting with me for an hour or more, asking me a series of questions. Q A Q A Do you know what questions -Hang on. I'm sorry. That's okay. And I remember David Boden telling me that he was answering a lot of questions, and I remember there United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 being a lot of email traffic back and forth, adding things to document packets for Mr. Florescu, changing documents around, that type of thing. active investor. Q A Active by virtue of asking a lot of questions? And he was very demanding. He was asking for He was a very
changes, I remember, Mr. Boden -- there should be email traffic evidencing Mr. Boden making changes and the like. Q Do you know what type of changes he was
requesting? A I don't recall, but the email traffic would
evidence that. Q Do you know if he requested substantive
changes to the deal documents? A My recollection is that he did; but, again,
Ms. Evans, the email traffic would be the best evidence of that. Q And you don't have any recollection,
independent recollection? A No, ma'am. I recall him asking for changes; I
don't know what the extent was. Q When he -- did he -- do you have a
recollection of him being in your office more than once? A I don't have a specific recollection one way United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or the other, but I recall him being there. Q The day that you mentioned he was there, do
you -- or that you recall, do you recall what questions he asked, what specific questions he asked? A I do not, and when you say my office, I recall I recall him
him being in my office within my offices.
also being there to meet with Mr. Boden, but I can't tell you how many times. Q Was your office within the law firm guarded by
any individuals -A Q A For --- at any point in time? For several months, on and off, I did have
bodyguards outside the office, and then I stopped that. Q A Q Do you know what months you had them there? I don't. Did any investors ever question why you had
guards outside your office? A They may have. I don't have a specific
recollection. Q Do you recall if Mr. Florescu ever spoke with
Mr. Spinosa? A I have a recollection that Mr. Florescu knew I
Mr. Spinosa from before, so he very well may have. don't recall specifically whether he did or not. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 me. Q Okay. So moving to that meeting, I have a I want to make sure I Q of -A I recall seeing some email traffic indicating So you don't have any independent recollection
to me that Mr. Florescu either knew or had some way of knowing Mr. Spinosa from before and that he did, in fact, speak with him; but I don't know that personally, only from what I saw. Q You never asked Mr. Spinosa to speak with
Mr. Florescu by phone? A I don't recall that one way or other. I may
have, but I don't recall. Q And you don't recall ever asking Mr. Spinosa
to meet with Mr. Florescu? A have. Q Going to the day that you said you met with, I I don't recall one way or the other. I may
believe, Mr. Damson, I believe you said Ms. White may have been there in the Cypress office at TD Bank? A No, in the Cypress office I'm almost positive
Ms. White was with us. Q A Okay. I seem to recall them both driving there with
couple of questions about that.
Page 2117 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A understand your testimony, so please correct me any misstate anything. My understanding was that you said Frank Spinosa should represent to them a balance with a cushion; is that correct? MR. SCHERER: Object to form.
To the best of my recollection, I told Frank
that if they asked about the balances, I gave him a number and said, leave some cushion, leave some room. Q cushion"? A That if he was going to change the number that What did you mean by "leave some room, leave a
I gave, go over, not under, that they were expecting an amount to be in the bank. Q A Did you give him an amount? To the best of my recollection, yes. I have
no idea how could he have possibly done it if I hadn't given him an amount. Q A Q A Do you recall what amount you gave him? I do not. Do you recall how you arrived at the amount? I got the information from Irene and from
Debra and from Mr. Szafranski. Q And to your recollection, did he represent an
amount to them? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 meeting. To the best of my recollection, on the telephone call, Mr. Spinosa stuck to our script, which did not include a balance. To the best of my A To the best of my recollection, it was during He
that meeting that Mr. Spinosa verified the balance.
verified a number of things during the meeting, that I recall. Q Do you have a specific recollection of him
providing a number to you? A Q A At that meeting? Yes. I do. It is my recollection that it was at
that meeting -- because, see, I'm balancing this out, and let me explain myself. We had the telephone call, and we had the
recollection, it was at the meeting, face to face, where he gave the balance. That's to the best of my
recollection as I said sit today. He also verified that we were a good customer, that we maintained significant balances in the bank, that his money was safe; and he verified that the lock letters did, in fact, prevent the movement of that money anywhere but to the account listed on the letter, and he explained how that worked. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you have a plan that day, as you recall,
for what you would do if Mr. Damson and Ms. White asked for a printout of the account? A I did not, and that was a constant concern to
me throughout the course of the Ponzi scheme. Q Did you give any thought that day to having
Mr. Spinosa have a printout of the account? A I never gave a thought to having anyone, until
I was pushed to do that. Q So had they asked that day for a printout,
your scheme may have -- your Ponzi may have exploded right then and there? A That -- that is the case. That is a
potentiality of many, many events throughout the course of the entire Ponzi scheme and all its tentacles, that it could have exploded due to a lack of preparation on the part of me and my co-conspirators flying by the seat of our pants from time to time; and also, that it's really impossible to prepare for every contingency. Q Do you recall at that meeting whether either
Mr. Damson or Ms. White expressed any -- whether they questioned the balance that Mr. Spinosa told them? A Q A I don't know what that means. Let me ask that a different way. Sure. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did either Mr. Damson or Ms. White say to you
or Mr. Spinosa, that's too little money in the account, that number, there should be more in the account? A I don't recall them saying that. The bulk of the questions that occurred during that meeting pertained to the lock letter and the mechanics. I didn't even quite understand the
mechanics, I guess because there really were no mechanics; but that's my recollection. Q In preparing for that meeting, when did you
communicate with Mr. Spinosa to set up that meeting? A Q I don't recall. Do you recall if you emailed him the details
for the meeting? A If I emailed him the details of the meeting?
I would not have emailed him about the illegal portion of the meeting, so I might have -- I certainly might have set up a meeting with him by email. Q Do you recall when or how you communicated to
him the balance that you would like him to provide to Mr. Damson or Ms. White? A Q A I believe it was -- I did it verbally. On the same day as the meeting, do you recall? I don't recall one way or the other. I don't
want to guess. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2121 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Do you recall if it was in person or by phone? I don't recall one way or the other. This is Exhibit 245. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 245 for Identification.) MS. EVANS: And it has SWRTD 3949 and
3950 at the top of it. THE WITNESS: BY MS. EVANS: Q A Q Okay. Both pages? Okay. I've read it.
Both pages, this was an easy one to read. All right. Can you tell me whether you recall
the circumstance of these two emails? A The specific circumstances, I do not; but this
looks like me in a panic over balances. Q Let me ask you this: Was this the same day,
that September 25th that you met with Mr. Damson and Ms. White? A It certainly appears to be. I don't want to
guess, but the fact that I am writing "urgent," okay, that this balance must be increased by $6 million right now and to update the time and date to right now, tells me -- and since it's Coquina, okay, it refreshes my recollection that Mr. Damson and Ms. White were about to walk into my office to review balances. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q This says "Coquina 12." Now, a few minutes Were there two
ago, I think you meed Coquina 11.
different accounts or do you recall? A There may have been two different. I may have I just
been -- I may have been mistaken when I said 11.
recall seeing emails someplace where I discussed Coquina 11. Q Do you recall if the circumstances for these
emails was that you had somehow -- that the balance that was reflected on the fake TD Bank website was incorrect? A From looking at this, it was over by
$6 million, which is a -- it's not something you want to be doing in the middle of a Ponzi scheme is be off by $6 million; although, if you check all our email traffic, it's one of the ways you can tell who was innocent and who was not. We were way off on some of
them, and some people questioned it voraciously and some people did not. Q And when you say that's how you can tell who
was innocent and who was not, what did you mean? A Q A Can I answer it by example? Mhm-mhm. If you look at the email traffic back and
forth between Mr. Preve and I, there were frequent -there were frequent -United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2123 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A It's contagious. I know. There were frequent occurrences where the balances were off and you can see him sending me emails, not going "if you have this money locked in a trust account, where is our money." need to correct these balances. correct these balances. dollars." It's him saying, "you You need to have Irene
This is off by a millions of
One time I remember him saying something was
off by almost a billion dollars in one account alone. Other people, okay, when a balance was off -and I don't recall anyone specifically; but I do recall, for example, the hedge funds even where accounts had too much money in them, raising that -- raising a -- some sort of flag to them and then saying something to me about it and saying something to Mr. Preve and Mr. Szafranski about it and questioning it. So it was -- and it was -- it sounded like a legitimate investor questioning the account balance, and that's the way I differentiate, if that helps. Q Do you recall how you found out that you
needed to add -- that someone needed to add 6 million urgently? A Q I do. Can you tell me that? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2124 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A Q I looked at the balance. And compared it to something; is that correct,
or did someone -A I can only give you the normal process. I
can't tell you what I was doing at that moment, I would be guessing. Q A Okay. Give me the normal process.
Before an investor would come in to see the
bank balances, I would contact -- depending upon who was keeping the balances -- either Mr. Preve, Mr. Szafranski, Irene or Deb, get the correct balance, check the fake website, make sure it matched; if it didn't match, have someone correct it. Q You have been asked about your preparation
numerous times for this deposition, as well as who you met with over the past couple of years. of very quick questions. And you have testified that you have looked at some deposition transcripts; is that correct? ALL PRESENT: Objection. I have a couple
I have reviewed certain pieces of certain
transcripts. BY MS. EVANS: Q Have you reviewed any of Debra Villegas
deposition transcripts? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q No, ma'am. Any of Curtis Renie's deposition transcripts? No, ma'am. Have you reviewed any of Steven Caputi's
deposition transcripts? A Q No, ma'am. Have you reviewed deposition transcripts of
any investors? A testimony. testimony. I recall seeing a piece of Ari Glass's I recall seeing a piece of Marc Nordlicht's I recall seeing a small piece -- it seemed
to be scattered in documents I have -- of Kathleen White's testimony. I recall seeing part of Chris Podaras's testimony -- no, no, not Chris Podaras, of Michael Legamaro's testimony. I don't recall reviewing any of the testimony of investors. Q Do you recall whether you reviewed any
testimony of Mr. Damson or Mr. Klein's deposition testimony? A Q I have not. Okay. Did you review any trial testimony of
Ms. White or Mr. Damson and Mr. Klein? A I reviewed no trial testimony at all. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q All right. Have you spoken or met with
counsel of Ms. Villegas? A Q A Q A No, ma'am. Or counsel for Mr. Renie? No, ma'am. Or counsel for Mr. Boockvor? When you say met with them, you mean post
Ponzi explosion, right, not that I may have met these people at some point in time before -Q A community. Q A Q Yes. Okay. I'm not asking for any content. I'm just Post Ponzi. -- because I knew a lot of lawyers in the
asking did you meet with them. A No. I haven't met with anyone, other lawyers,
other than my own and the trustee lawyers and the government lawyers. Q So you haven't met with Mr. Scherer or his --
anyone at his firm? A Q No, ma'am. Okay. At any point since the implosion of
your scheme? A No, ma'am. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And the same for Mr. Tropin's firm, did you
meet anyone at his firm, either, after the implosion? A Actually, I just met Mr. Tropin for the very
first time yesterday. Q Okay. And same goes for his firm, you haven't
met with anyone there? A No, ma'am. MS. EVANS: please. Okay. Give me two seconds,
Let me make sure that I've asked you
everything that I wanted to. FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q A Q Good morning, Mr. Rothstein. Good morning again. Thank you. I have a few questions. Let me focus on what
you had said before about sometimes people would have the wrong amounts in their accounts and somehow from that you could tell whether or not they were involved in the Ponzi? A account. amounts. Q Okay. So let me clarify that. I didn't say they had the wrong amounts in the I said the documents reflected the wrong
There were occasions when people received United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2128 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 statements that reflected the wrong amounts, other than what they should have expected to see in those accounts, correct? A not -Q A You explain. It's not that they received statements. It's No. You're not saying that right. It's
that balance amounts that had been verified were incorrect. Q A Okay. I don't recall -- I mean, it may have happened
that they got an incorrect statement, but I don't recall that happening. Q But do you recall a period of time when
Coquina wanted to consolidate the money that was in your -- it their segregated account and in your general account? A Q I do, sir. And you recall that they actually asked you to
combine the money that was set aside for them in your general trust account with the money in the so-called segregated account? A Q I recall that. And do you recall, sir, when did you that that
the -- the information that was given to them by your United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2129 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 firm as to the total funds in the segregated account was $3 million too high? A Q I do recall that. And you also recall that the Coquina group did
nothing to advise you of that? A Q That I don't recall. Do you recall Mr. Szafranski actually telling
the Coquina people that was a good problem to have? A Q I do recall that. And did the Coquina people give you back the In other words, their statement
$3 million in excess?
that they were seeing showed that they had $3 million more in their segregated account than there should have been? A No, I am sorry, Mr. Schnapp. You're
misunderstanding. Q Okay. When the two accounts were
consolidated, isn't it a fact, sir, that the combined amount in the segregated account was approximately $43 million? A I remember this occurring around -- I remember
discussing it with Mr. Damson. Q And was there ever a time when Mr. Damson sent
the money back? A No, no, no. I just said I discussed it with
Page 2130 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Damson. Q And what did he say and what did you do --
what did you say? A He asked why the balance in the account was
off, it's too much money. And I said, I had a general propensity to leave my attorneys fees and costs from time to time, or part of it, in the accounts. That is something I told
many of our investors when the balances were too high. Q So you let him keep the additional 3 million;
is that right? A Q No, no, I didn't let him keep it. Well, was there any documentation showing that
he was not going to receive the $43 million? A Only me telling him that if it was over, it's
my attorneys fees and costs. Q My question to you is, you do recall
Mr. Szafranski telling him that that's a good problem to have? A Q Yes. Okay. That's my joking around, yes. And then what documentation was there,
if any, of an effort by Coquina to return your attorneys fees that were in the account? A First of all, you have to remember something, So even if
they didn't have control of that account. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2131 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there was really something -- how much money are we talking about, 23 million? Q A Forty-three. -- $43 million in there, they couldn't have I would have just taken it. I am
returned it to me.
the one who had control over the account. Q And did you ever provide a document to them
showing them that you took back the $3 million in excess? A I may have ultimately sent them a corrected
bank statement shoving the 3 million out. Q Did Mr. Damson ever say, how could you make
such a mistake by putting an extra $3 million in our account? A No, no, because it wasn't a mistake; it was --
my explanation, always -- you have to understand I was always fearful, throughout the course of the scheme, of the balances. tried to. My explanation was, it's my money in there. It's attorneys fees and costs. I'll get it when I need it. Q Well, didn't any investors express to you Don't worry about it. We always erred on the side of excess, or
concerns that maybe you were being sloppy in your accounting? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2132 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I'm certain that they did, but it was neither If you look at the email traffic,
your here nor there.
you'll see emails, for example, with the hedge funds, people pointing out the same thing that Mr. Szafranski did: It's better to have too much in the account than
too little. Q Now, just so I understand, what -- when were
you talking about Mr. Preve, what -- was he trying to make his records appear correct? explain what you meant? withdraw that. I mean, could you
When Mr. Preve -- let me
That was a bad question.
When Mr. Preve had conversations with you about balances in his accounts not matching what should have been in the accounts, what was he asking you to do? A Q Correct the balances. And was he suggesting that -- but he knew his
balances were false; is that right? A Q A Yes. Okay. From the time that he knew the Ponzi scheme
was going on, he knew they were false. Q Okay. Were you aware -- I think you testified
yesterday that the rates of returns got higher later in the deal; is that right? A Yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q And was that to induce people to invest? Yes. And was there ever a concern that the rates of
return were usurious under Florida law? A Q Yes. Had you ever discussed that potential for the
rates being usurious with Mr. Damson? A Q Yes. And did you -- and what did you say to
Mr. Damson about the rates being usurious? A I showed him a fake opinion letter that David
Boden had prepared -- I don't remember who he said had signed -- saying it wasn't usurious. Q At that time, had you done the deal that had a
600 percent return annualized? A Q I do not recall. Wasn't -- isn't it a fact, sir, that every
deal with the Coquina Group was in excess of 90 percent annualized? A Q A with him. Q Did Mr. Damson ever question you as to how you I do not recall. And did Mr. Damson get a copy of that opinion? I showed it to him. I don't know if I left it
were able to get such high returns? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. Did Mr. Damson ever say to you anything about
him attempting to determine whether or not -independently of your opinion, whether or not -COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry I didn't hear
you at the end, whether or not ... BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q Did Mr. Damson ever tell you that he,
Mr. Damson, was going to get a legal opinion as to the rates of return and whether or not they were usurious? A I recall him telling me that they reviewed I don't know whether Mr.
Mr. Boden's opinion letter.
Boden signed it or if he had one of our other attorneys sign it; but he reviewed the letter, and he was comfortable based upon the research that had been done. Mr. Damson was not one to leave things to chance. was very thorough. Q Did Mr. Damson -- well, then, why didn't He
Mr. Damson receive a copy of the legal opinion from you? A I didn't say that he didn't receive. You're
changing what my testimony was. I said I don't remember whether he took a copy with him or not. Q I remember showing it to him.
Do you know that the trustee sent a demand
letter to Coquina suggesting that -- the rates of United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q returns that are received on every deal is usurious? A I heard that from for first time yesterday. MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
Do you know that the trustee threatened to sue
Coquina for criminal usury? A Q That I just found out when you just said it. Sir, were you ever given any immunity with
respect to usury from the state -- from the state in connection with the state -- any state prosecution? A Q I'm sorry. Say that again.
Were you given any immunity with respect to
usury in connection with any state or federal prosecution? A Q To my knowledge, no. Now, I'm going to go through one other area
just quickly. You had talked the other day about that certain times there would be kickbacks to certain people; is that correct? A Q Yes. And isn't -- your -- and you said there was
kickbacks to Mr. Szafranski; is that true? A Q You have to define "kickbacks" for me. Well, when you used the term "kickbacks," what
did you mean? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, I use it broadly. There are kickbacks
that I -- understanding that nothing that was going on was legitimate. There are kickbacks that I would craft
in a manner to look as if they were legitimate; and then there were just blatantly illegal kickbacks that's were illegal and looked illegal. Q By the way, to you knowledge, were the deals
that you were making usurious? A Q Yes. And the deals that you made, that would
include the deals with Coquina; they were usurious? MR. SCHERER: BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q A Is that correct? They looked usurious to me. I never actually Objection, form.
did the research. Q Okay. Let me show you what I am marking as
Exhibit 246. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 246 for Identification.) BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q Just let me help you a little bit. Looking at the bottom of the page, there's an email from you to Mr. Szafranski, and you say, "and I am going to give you 50 percent of my fee for each one you United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2137 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A Q right? A That was my Ponzi-speak with Mike explaining move." What were you referring to there? First of all, it says "50K" not "50 percent." I'm sorry, you're right, 50K, that is 50,000,
to him how much he was going to make for every deal he got. Q Why were you paying Mr. Szafranski if he was
acting as the agent for the funds for Coquina? A Q Because he was in on the Ponzi scheme. All right. So that -- was it fair to say that
was kickback? MR. SCHERER: Object to the form.
It's what I would term one of the kickbacks Okay. There's a
that was illegal and looked illegal. difference.
There are some that I gave that I crafted to look legitimate, and then there were some with Mike, who was in on it, that I couldn't have cared less what it actually looked like. Q Okay. Did Mr. Szafranski ever tell Mr. Damson
that you were kicking back part of your fee? A He may. I don't know. Ask Mr. Szafranski is
the best way to do that. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Well, I want to ask you. Let me show you 247.
(Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 247 for Identification.) BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q A Q fees? A Q Yes. Why would Mr. Szafranski be telling a funder Do you see -- you see the internal email? Yes. And it says he, meaning you, is kicking back
that you were kicking back money? A He says, he has negotiated with the other He is kicking
lawyers to send him 20K of their fee.
back to funders if they fund five cases or more, any interest. He is utilizing that as a lure to lure
Mr. Damson in to invest more money with us. Q A By using the word "kicking back"? Kicking it back, he's referring to the money He is saying that:
that he was getting from the lawyer.
I'm getting money from the other lawyer, and I'm willing to -- if you take a certain number of cases, to give it to someone else. Q Let me show you what I'm going to mark as
Exhibit 248. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A mine. MR. SCHERER: Can you identify that for Bank's Exhibit 248 for Identification.) BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q back fees? MR. NURIK: MR. SCHNAPP: Is this an eye test? Your eyes are better than Do you see, again, the reference to kicking
us, so we know what we are looking at? BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q that is. A It an email from Michael Szafranski dated Mr. Rothstein, why don't you identified what
Monday August 10th, 2009, at 10:56 a.m, to me; subject, Coquina; first line, it says "five cases." Okay. So your question is, Mr. Schnapp.
Was that another example of kickback? It is a discussion between Mike and I about
using kickbacks to lure in investors, yes. Q A Q And in this case it was Coquina? Yes. And what are the letters that Barry Damson is
trying to obtain? MR. SCHERER: BY MR. SCHNAPP: United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Object to form.
Page 2140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A you? MR. SCHERER: Object to form. Q As you read that email, what does that mean to
To the best of my recollection, it involved He did not know they He
fake opinion letters that I had.
were fake, but he was asking for letters from me. asked for opinions on certain things. BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q And did you give them -- did you give him
copies of those fake opinions? A I don't recall one way or the other. You have
to check the email traffic. Q Did you ever tell Mr. Szafranski that he could
communicate to Mr. Levin that he was going to get an extra 300,000 from your fees? A I don't recall one way or the other. If you It
have an email, it might refresh my recollection. would be helpful. Q
I'm going to mark as Exhibit 249 an email
chain, but I would ask you to look at only the first page. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 249 for Identification.) BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q Can you identify that for the record, sir? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2141 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. And were you giving -MR. SCHERER: so we -A Yes. It's an email from Scott Rothstein, Tell us what it is, please,
dated Wednesday July 15, 2009, at 2:47 p.m., to Mike at Onyx Capital Management dot com; subject, re: new deals. Q Were you giving Mr. Levin additional money
from your fees? A Q A No. No. That's not what this is about.
What is it about? This is me telling Mike that before I send
these new deals to Mr. Levin, try telling people that I'll give them an extra $300,000 out of my fees if they take six deals. Q Okay. It's not the money to Mr. Levin. So but you -- but this was evidence of
the fact that you were going to kick back money from your own fees -A Q A Q Yes. -- to any -Obviously, there is no real fees, so it's a -I understand. This was an inducement to get
people to go into the deals. A Q Correct. That you, as the lawyer for the people who are United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is settling these cases, was going to kick back $300,000? A Out of my fees. MR. SCHNAPP: I just need one moments. I
just need two minutes, and I'll be ready. BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q Yesterday I asked you some questions about the
funds; do you recall? A Q I'm sorry? I asked you some questions about the funds,
and when I said "funds," I'm talking about Platinum and Centurion. Let me just show you what I'm going to mark as Exhibit 250. (Thereupon, the document was marked as TD Bank's Exhibit 250 for Identification.) BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q That's an email from Mr. Preve to
Mr. Nordlicht on the top. A If you give me a second, I'll read it, and
I'll be right with you. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: email? MR. SCHNAPP: June 23. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 June 15, I'm sorry, What is the date of the
Page 2143 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this. BY MR. SCHNAPP: Q Was there ever any discussions about -- that THE WITNESS: No. No. The email is June
25th at the top and June 24 at the bottom. MR. SCHERER: THE WITNESS: In '09? Yes.
The bottom is from Mr. Preve to Mr. Nordlicht, June 24th, 2009 at 8:59 a.m, The top is June 25th, 2009, 12:36 p.m., from Preve to Mr. Lichtman and Mr. Simony. Just give me one second, and I'll read
you were privy to, that if Mr. Nordlicht made a false representation to new investors, he would be able to get himself bought out? A Q A Q A Q A Yes. And is that what this is referring to? Yes. Can you elaborate on that? Yes. Well, could you do it now? Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. My apologies, I'm sorry about that, Mr. Schnapp. Q It's good deposition training. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 means. A Yes. Frank and I, on several occasions, If you could, just explain to me what that
discussed the fact that we needed a positive credit reference with regard to incoming investors. We needed
a positive credit reference from the hedge funds in New York. The reason being that if they said we were in default or said we weren't a good investment strategy, it would likely cut off our ability to bring in new funds. The way we put this out for the purpose of the hedge funds was that we'll be getting new money in. can out utilize that money to pay you. We
It will speed up
the process of them getting all their money out, so we wanted them to lie for us. These emails reflect those
conversations with Mr. Nordlicht and Mr. Simony. Prior to the new investors inquiring of Mr. Nordlicht, Mr. Nordlicht and I had a conversation, one or two over the phone and at least one in my office, where I explained to him the concept that I previously referred to as DOMAD, the doctrine of mutually assured destruction, and told him that it benefited no one to say we were in default; that the best thing he could do to get his money out, and for us to not have this United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 explode, would be to give us a positive credit rating, and that's what occurred. Q Okay. So you were -- you had discussed with
Mr. Nordlicht the fact that Mr. Nordlicht last going to lie to new investors, correct? A Yes, and I actually discussed it with
Mr. Simony, as well. Q A Q Okay. They agreed to that?
They did. When you set up the segregated account for
Coquina, were they still relying on Mr. Szafranski to look at the account? A Q A Q You mean the fake segregated account? The fake segregated account? Yes. And why didn't -- why didn't they ask to have
copies of the fake segregated account -- let me rephrase. Why didn't Coquina, or did Coquina ever ask you to have copies of the statements from the segregated account sent directly to them from the bank? A Q A Q Sent directly to them from the bank? Yes. I don't recall them ever requesting that. And at that point, the segregated account, so United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2146 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. RABIN: Q Good morning, again, Mr. Rothstein. MR. NURIK: question? MR. RABIN: MR. NURIK: Sure. Being that you have asked Before we begin, can I ask a we're clear, was only supposed to have Coquina's monies in it; is that correct? A Q Yes. And they never asked to get a copy of that
statement sent directly to them from TD Bank? A Directly from TD Bank, no. MR. SCHNAPP: MR. RABIN: MR. SCHNAPP: Mr. Rabin, are you up -Yes. -- next?
FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION
questions before -MR. RABIN: MR. NURIK: Yes. -- is it your intent to ask
questions on matters that you have already asked? MR. RABIN: to be repetitive. Absolutely not, I don't want I'm -- in fact, if I cover
an area that's been covered before, it's going to be to add something new; it's not to cover United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2147 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 things that we have already covered for sure. Okay? MR. NURIK: BY MR. RABIN: Q Let me start first with, we spoke previously a How do you Okay.
little bit about Melissa Lewis or Britt. know her? Lewis? A Q
How did you refer to her, as Melissa Britt or
I referred to her to as Melissa Lewis. Prior to her death, did you have any kind of a
physical relationship with her at any time while she was -- while you knew her? A Q Yes. Okay. When did that occur in relationship to
her death, that is how soon before? A Q Many years before. Okay. After she was murdered, did you do
anything to influence the investigation by law enforcement of her death? A Q No. Did you have anybody from law enforcement
feeding you information about the investigation as it was going on? A Q Yes. Were you paying for that? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A MS. STONE: BY MR. RABIN: Q All right. Was she married at the time that Objection, privileged.
you were having the relationship with her? A Q No. She was a student of mine. Do you know if her -- the person who
Okay.
became to be known as her -- or became her husband ever knew about that relationship? A Q I do not know. Okay. Let me move on to -- do you remember --
I think you previously testified that after you had fled to Morocco, that you didn't use email very much, but you used your phone; is that correct? ALL PRESENT: Object to the form.
I think I used text messages more than I used
email, I believe. BY MR. RABIN: Q I want to -- I have the text of a message that
I want to see if you recall. A Q Sure. Would you prefer me to read it into the I'll
record, or would you like to read it yourself? give you your preference? A Q
It would probably be easier if I read it. Okay. Let me show it to you, just to refresh United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your recollection. A Q Okay. Okay. First of all, does that appear to be a
text message that you sent? A Q It does. Okay. And so that everybody knows what we are
talking about, why don't you read the contents of it into the record, so that everybody kind of knows where we are going. A Sure, Mr. Rabin. George and Frank, I have completed a list of info you will need to go after TD Bank and Gibraltar Bank. We should meet late Tuesday or first thing We will have to select the time and place at I am in much greater danger My life and the
Wednesday.
random just before we meet.
than simply dealing with these issues.
lives of my parents, sister, kids and wife are all in jeopardy. Please watch out for yourselves. Scott. Despite my
idiocy, I love you both. Q All right.
So first of all, you recognize
that to be a legitimate text that you sent? A When you say "legitimate," it contains lies,
but it's a -- yes, it's -- I think what you are getting at Mr. Rabin: Is it a text that I sent.
It looks like something that I sent, yes. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2150 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A A Q Q That was an in artful question. That's
exactly what I was asking. Is it a text that you sent? It is authentic. Now let's take it apart. It talks about you claiming to have completed a list of info that you -- and the "you" is George an Frank in the context of this text massage -- will need to go after TD Bank and Gibralter Bank. Was that true? No. Okay. No. So you did not prepare any such list?
I was still in Morocco at the time this
was written, and I -- I didn't prepare any lists for anybody. Q I was in a sheer state of panic. And by the way, on this date, November 1st,
had you already spoken to Marc Nurik about -- and retained him? A Q Yes. Okay. Do you remember what date that
occurred, in relationship to -- the date you left for Morocco was October 28th; is that right? A I left for Morocco the 27th or 28th. I don't
recall specifically. Q All right. Do you remember how many days
Page 2151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 after you left for Morocco, you retained Mr. Nurik, or reached out to him, at least, to be your lawyer? A I first reached out to him -- I was there a
very short period of time, maybe a day. Q So if you left the 27th or 28th, we are
talking about the 28th or 29th you would have reached out to him? A Q That sounds about right. All right. And so, now you've already talked
to Mr. Nurik at the time you had sent -A Q A I'm sorry. Don't let me interrupt you two. He actually was giggling about the fact that
we needed to define "retained." Q A status. Q That's probably a contention that you and Well, I understand that. I think he was talking about my pecunious
Mr. Nurik can deal with in terms of how well you have compensated him or the lack thereof. But in any event, so the fact that you prepared a list to go after TD Bank and Gibralter was a lie? A Q Yes. What was the purpose of that lie? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A At the time that all this was going on,
Mr. Rabin, I was just trying to keep everything calm, not have people go running around to the police, not have people do anything foolish. And I was trying to
make people believe that I was still on board, that I was still a team player, that type of thing. Q All right. Were you no longer on board and no
longer a team player? A you know. Q Well, were you still contemplating suicide I don't know where I was. I mean, I was --
after you had the benefit of Mr. Nurik's counsel? A I actually contemplated suicide right up until
the time I left Morocco. Q Okay. So you didn't find sufficient solace in
the fact that you had retained Mr. Nurik to prevent you from continuing to think about committing suicide? A No reflection on Mr. Nurik; but yes, he did
not talk me off the ledge. Q Okay. Well, somebody did because you didn't
kill yourself? A Q I did. Okay. So you kind of came to -- you came to
that realization of your own, not to kill yourself? A I decided to be a man, probably for the first United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2153 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yes. A Q A A Q time in my life. Q Okay. Going on with this text message, you
say, I am in much greater danger than simply dealing with these issues. What did you mean by that? That was a lie. Okay. My life and the lives of my parents,
sister, kids and wife are all in jeopardy? A That was a lie to get them to try to protect
my -- to look out for -- not go after my family. Q Please watch out for yourselves. Despite my
idiocy, I love you both. True statement or false statement? Please watch out for yourselves? Yes. I didn't really think they had anything to
worry about, other than crimes that they committed, but -- at least what Mr. Preve had done. Q A So that it was also a lie? If you say "please watch out for yourselves," If you are taking it in the context of everything
else I was saying, yes. "Despite my idiocy, I love you both," did care about both of them. Q Okay. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 No, I
Page 2154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Still do. But so it's fair to say that for the most
part, this text message is almost a total lie? A Q Yes, sir. Okay. Now I want to show you what's going to
be marked as Exhibit No. 251? MR. LICHTMAN: Was that last text message
marked as an exhibit? MR. RABIN: It is not. I think it should be. Yes, I do, too. I'll supplement the record,
MR. LICHTMAN: MR. SCHERER: MR. RABIN:
then, because I have it as a group of other texts. I'll supplement and mark them. But we're supposed to be
MR. LICHTMAN:
marking being them, you know, concurrently. MR. SCHERER: MR. RABIN: Is that 251? We'll make it 251. Thank you.
MR. LICHTMAN:
(Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa's Exhibit 251 for Identification.) MR. RABIN: And 251, so the record is
clear, then, will have a second message on it -- actually, no, that's the wrong page. Yeah, it is by itself. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2155 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please. (Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa's Exhibit 252 for Identification.) A Q A Q Okay. Do you remember this email? Vaguely. Okay. Fair to say that the text of this email Okay. So 251, and I'll supplement a copy
of -- it will be a text massage on the other page. BY MR. RABIN: Q Let me show you 252. Its an email. This has
been previously produced.
It's TD/Razor OOOO58.
Let me know when you're done reviewing that,
is Frank Spinosa soliciting business from you? A Q A Q Yes. Okay. No. Is there any -- is there anything in this Is there any Ponzi-speak in this email?
email that you consider to be flowing as a result of Frank being a player or on your team or having received money from you? A Q No. Okay. Would be fair to characterize this
email, then, as a banker seeking to obtain information United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or seeking to obtain business, specifically loan business, from a client? A Q Yes. Okay. And were there many occasions where
Frank Spinosa solicited or tried to solicit business from you? A Q I believe he did, yes. And were there also many occasions where Frank
Spinosa solicited from you business contacts to obtain information -- to obtain business from your friends and associates? A Q Yes. Okay. Was that a frequent theme with you, the
two of you? A Q Yes. Okay. Can you, off the top of your head,
recall any people or organizations that Mr. Spinosa was soliciting you to make a connection for him? A He wanted to meet all my wealthy friends and
business owners. Q Okay. Would you consider that would be the --
one of the functions of a banker? A Q A Yes. Okay. You found nothing unusual about that?
Not in the least. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2157 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. Regarding the people -- do you have an
independent recollection of specifics that he -- where he asked you to make an introduction for him? A Q I don't specifically. Okay. Let me ask -- let me see if I can
refresh your recollection on some. A Q tribe? A Q A Q A Q I did. Did he ask you to make a connection there? He certainly may have. All right. Several different bankers did. Let me show you a document and mark it 253 and Great. Did you have an connection with the Seminole
see if this refreshes your recollection? MR. SCHLESINGER: These are was from the
restored emails that were produces to us last week. (Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa's Exhibit 253 for Identification.) A I recall this.
BY MR. RABIN: Q All right. What was your connection to the
Seminole tribe? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2158 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I had a friend who was very close to some of
the leaders of the tribe. Q And so is it fair to say that Mr. Spinosa
somehow knew about that and was seeking your ability to make an introduction for him so he could obtain business from the Seminoles? A Q Yes. Do you know how he came to know that you knew
somebody at the Seminole tribe? A Q I told him. Okay. How about at the Versace mansion, did
he also try and get business there? A Q I had offered that to him, yes. Okay. Bova, the restaurant, did he try and
get that business? A Yes, Mr. Rabin, I offered him access to all my
businesses. Q And was that -- in his function as a banker,
did you consider that to be a legitimate business or was that Ponzi business. A Q A this: It was both. Tell me how it was Ponzi business? I was trying -- the best way to put it is The way I operated was with people that were
being good to me, assisting me with the scam, I tried to United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 do everything I could to make them look good in their legitimate businesses. So, unfortunately, very little of my life during that point in time was unrelated to Ponzi. Everything that I was doing was pretty much geared towards keeping this thing alive and preventing myself from going to jail, if that helps clear it up at all. Q If you were to remove the -- all of the
illegal things that you were doing from the equation for a moment -- and I know that's probably impossible to do, but assume that for the sake of the question -- would the actions and conversations that Frank Spinosa undertook to obtain business connections from you be consistent with that of a legitimate banker doing legitimate banking work? A Q From what you have just shown me, yes. Okay. Let me show you what I am going to mark
as Rothstein 254. Honestly, I'm not sure if this has been provided or not. I have copies of it. Yes, it was produced
MR. SCHLESINGER: already. MR. RABIN:
It was okay. It's the email from I think it
MR. SCHLESINGER:
Frank Spinosa to Scott Rothstein: United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that? THE WITNESS: Mr. Rabin? MR. RABIN: THE WITNESS: You can. Frank A. Spinosa to Scott You want to do it, was about three years ago I meet you and committed the best service -MR. RABIN: different one. (Court reporter interruption.) (Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa's Exhibit 254 for Identification.) BY MR. RABIN: Q A Q You've have reviewed the email? I have. Okay. This email occurs after you have Hang on. I think that's a
requested a letter from Mr. Spinosa? A Q It's one of the lock letters. Okay. And it occurs -- his email back to you
is after you have requested one of the letters? A Yes. The traffic appears to be the -- part of
the email is cut off. MR. SCHERER: Can we get the date on
Rothstein, Thursday, September 17th, 2009, at 5:10 p.m.; with two prior emails on the bottom United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2161 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of it, same date. BY MR. RABIN: Q of it: All right. And Frank Spinosa says on the top
I think it was about three years ago I met you
and committed the best service you will ever have and that I would become your banker. way. A Q A Q We are well on our
I am proud to know you and be there for you. Yes. Is there any Ponzi-speak in there? Yes. Okay. Tell us what you consider to be
Ponzi-speak in there. A You have to take it from the very bottom. The
bottom of the email, the 9/17/2009, 4:47 p.m. email, is cut off; but it says the subject, "the letter," and that would have been a lock letter I was asking him to sign for us. Q A Q Right. Okay. He responds to me, "he'll be back in office He's going to get it
the first thing tomorrow morning. out to me."
As you know from my prior testimony, that is a lock letter that actually does nothing that I was utilizing to lure in investors. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I say: Thanks so much Frank, U R Da Man.
And then he responds with this very nice, professional email. But given the fact that it's in response to something that was illegal that we were doing, I take it as Ponzi-speak. But I will tell you this: Mr. Spinosa was
always extremely professional in everything that he drafted. (Court reporter interruption.) (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) BY MR. RABIN: Q All right. And in the context of this letter,
did you believe that Frank Spinosa was trying to provide you with good service? A Q A Yes. Okay. As a banker?
As a banker, and in assisting me in what I was
doing, to the limited extent that he was involved, yes. Q All right. Let's go -- regarding these
letters that you just mentioned, we have gone through them, and I'm not going to cover the same ground; but did you ever request a letter on an account that wasn't one of your trust accounts? A A lock letter? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Yeah. I don't recall ever requesting one on anything It may
that was not associated with the Ponzi scheme.
not have been a trust account, but to my recollection, I always used it regarding some type of fraud. Q Well, is it fair to say that on all the
letters that you -- first of all, so we're clear, all the letters that Frank Spinosa authored, you requested of him, correct? A Q them all? A Q correct? A I don't know that for certain. I may have had I did. And they were all on your trust accounts, Yes, sir. And the so-called lock letters, you requested
Ponzi accounts or Ponzi- or criminal-related accounts that were not trust accounts that I wanted to give the appearance of being locked. Q Do you remember an incident where you or
somebody on your behalf requested a lock letter, as you called them, on an account that was not a trust account; it was an LLC account, and the bank and Mr. Spinosa refused to give it to you? Do you remember that? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2164 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 leg. MR. RABIN: THE WITNESS: MR. RABIN: THE WITNESS: Tell me when you're ready. Just give me one second. Sure. You should have another Q A I don't. You'd have to -- you'd have to show
me the email traffic to tell you that. Certainly possible. Okay. And you don't -- do you have an
independent recollection of ever requesting a letter and not being provided with one? A Q I don't remember one way or the other. Let me show you what I'm going to mark as 255. It's a letter. Bates stamped TD/Razor
It's already been produced. MR. SCHLESINGER: 002505.
(Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa's Exhibit 255 for Identification.) MR. RABIN: Araulo. I'm sure I butchered his name. THE WITNESS: Sorry. Marc just broke my And it's Kerstetter to Regulo
email that goes with this, but I remember this specifically, yes.
Page 2165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. RABIN: Q Okay. I don't, unfortunately.
So the fact that it refreshes your recollection, tell us what you recall about it, please. A Yeah. What was happening was, one of the
legitimate investors, the Von Allmen group, the D3 Capital group, were looking to duplicate what I was doing. Okay. I had this whole illegal lock-letter
thing going on with Mr. Spinosa where things looked like they were locked but they weren't really locking anything. Mr. Preve knew that we were doing that. Mr. Preve spoke to the people at the D3 Capital, Mr. Scherer's clients, okay, and described how we were able to lock these accounts. using it as part of his sales pitch. Okay. Okay. He was
Someone at D3, one of the lawyers or one of the -- one of the due diligence people, I think it might have been Chris Podaras, got the idea that in this whole thing that they were doing off to the side between Banyan and them and whoever else they were dealing with -- I remember it involved an LLC -- that they wanted to have between themselves, not with one of my accounts, that they wanted to have the account locked. And since there was no real mechanism to do United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A that, since you couldn't really lock the account and since Mr. Spinosa knew that these people were, quote, unquote, legitimate investors, they couldn't do it. Because if they had done it, it would have blown the whole thing sky high because there was no way to lock the account. Had he provided that, it would have been a
disaster for everybody, including him. Q Do you remember Mr. Spinosa providing you with
a letter on any account, other than a trust account? A Q I don't recall one way or the other. And do you remember him ever providing you
with a letter on one of your accounts where you had not requested it beforehand? MR. LICHTMAN: No, sir. Objection to the form.
BY MR. RABIN: Q All right. There came a point in time -- you
testified about this before; it's the email there, and I don't know what exhibit number it is. I could show it
to you if you need to refresh your memory about it again, the email where Mr. Spinosa talks about getting a standard proof letter? A Q Yes. Okay. I recall that. At this point, Mr. Spinosa has been
paid by you, correct? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q What's the date of that? September 30th. Yes, sir. Okay. Why would -- I mean, that's certainly
contrary to anything that would be going on with your arrangement with him, for him to seek approval from anybody at the bank, right? A I spoke to Frank about that. Do you want to show me the email again? Sure. I'll mark it again. It's probably
already in the record, but it's easier for me to mark it again than just to look for it. This will be Exhibit 256. MR. SCHLESINGER: Trustee/Spinosa 000197.
(Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa's Exhibit 256 for Identification.) THE WITNESS: BY MR. RABIN: Q this? A Q A I did. All right. Tell me about the conversation. Okay. You said you spoke to Mr. Spinosa about Okay.
When I read this, I took it as his Ponzi-speak
saying we needed to slow down on the lock letters, there were too many in the system. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. He's talking about getting an
approve -- a letter approved by somebody within the bank, correct? A Yes. But if you think about what was going on, that makes no sense. It's a way of telling me we need to From the very
slow down, because think about this:
beginning, Frank is signing lock letters that lock nothing. He knows that I'm providing it to people who Okay.
are, at the very least, clients of mine.
It's not something that, from my conversations with Mr. Spinosa, Mr. Spinosa wanted to continue to do and certainly didn't want to continue to do it with the frequency. Q It was his way of telling me to slow down. You didn't, like, get into one of your rants
with him; I mean, you -- you sent back a very measured email basically saying, I prefer not to use the standard letter, almost done for the time being, right? A I don't think I ever ranted at Frank Spinosa. But I did speak to
He was always a gentleman with me.
him about this and told him specifically that we'll do it at whatever pace he needs it done. Q You would agree with me that you -- the last
thing you would have wanted was for him to get a letter approved within the bank, correct? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2169 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I would tell you it was the last thing he
wanted to try to do because then the entire bank would have been on notice that he was providing signed lock letters that did nothing. Q A Q Did you -They accomplished nothing. Do you know whether or not he had notified
other people within the bank that he had prepared these letters? A Q I believe he did. Okay. So he wasn't keeping a secret from
people within the bank then, was he? A I don't know who he told, but I believe he I believe
discussed it at certain points in time. that's how he knew it could not be done. Q
Well, did you know that he had put notes on
some of the accounts regarding the letters? A Yes, but the notes don't match what the The notes are -- diverge from what the They accomplish
letters say.
lock letter says they would do. nothing.
If you think about it, telling me that you're
locking an account that you know can't be locked, either he's the dumbest banker in the world or he was participating in a fraud, one or the other; and he's not dumb at all. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2170 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Have you read any -- have you read the Enotes
put on the account? A shown. Q A Q When? Who showed these to you? I recall reading some of them that I was
I don't recall. And it's your testimony that they don't match
the letters? A letters. Q A In what way? One said we need to limit -- no. That if The ones that I was shown don't match the
someone tries to move the money, other than Scott, or there is something going on with the account, let Scott know. I don't remember -- I do remember having a conversation that came up after -- I think it was after the -- somebody at the bank was questioning the fact that this couldn't get done, and I remember talking to Frank about it and saying, what happens if you actually put the instruction on there, if you actually just put it into the system, this money can only go to this place? He said, it will show up on the screens, he said, but it still doesn't prevent you from moving the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2171 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 money because you have wire capacity, so you can always just move the money. Q A Did -So he may have, in fact, actually tried to put
a real instruction on there at some point in time, but it would have had no effect because of TreasuryDirect and our access. And you also have to remember, just to finish the answer, there was no money in the accounts. Q So what you're saying is that regardless of
whether he put the instruction on it or not, you always had the ability to move the money; is that what you're saying? A Q To my knowledge, yes. Did Frank Spinosa know that you were stealing
money out of these accounts? A I don't believe he knew I was -- I knew -- I I
believe that he knew -- and this is my opinion:
believe he knew I was committing a fraud, but I never discussed with him the fact that I was stealing money from these people. As I testified many times earlier, I only told people exactly with they needed to know. him to do two things -- three things: I only wanted
Watch out for any
problems within the bank regarding velocity of United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2172 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fraud. Q Based upon the information you gave him and transactions, money laundering, the PSA, AML warnings, that kind of stuff; protect me on that and overdrafts. I had him do the lock letters, and I had him verify some false information to some clients. Other than that, he did not participate in the
the conversations you had with him, what was the fraud that you led him to believe that you were committing? A Q I would be guessing. Well, you just said that you didn't think that
he knew you were stealing from the accounts, you don't think he knew about the Ponzi -MR. LICHTMAN: BY MR. RABIN: Q -- but he knew about some kind of fraud. So I'm assuming that would be based on your conversations with him, correct? A opinion. Q Okay. In your opinion, what was the nature of It's based upon what I told him and my Objection to form.
the fraud that you believe that he knew about? A That I was attempting to utilize the banks to I don't think he knew the
commit criminal activities.
extent to which I was doing it. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2173 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Although, if you look at the shear amount of money I'm moving in and out of the accounts and the velocity, it appears to be money laundering. Q And what criminal acts, specifically? Is
money laundering the one you're talking about? A Q It's one of them. What other criminal acts do you believe, based
upon your conversations with him and interaction with him, that he would have believed you were committing, what crimes? A Convincing, what appear to be, my clients, for
whatever reason, that funds were in a locked account when there was actually next to nothing in the account and when they could not really be locked, and lying about the amount of money that was contained in accounts or, specifically, that I had in the bank at any one point in time. Q Those are facts, but I'm asking you, as you
said that he didn't think -- in your opinion, he didn't think you were committing a Ponzi scheme or stealing money from your accounts, he just thought that you were committing crimes, I'm asking you to identify the crimes. You identified one: money laundering. Are
there any other crimes that you can identify that you United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A believe, based upon the information you gave Mr. Spinosa, that he would have believed you were committing.? ALL PRESENT: Objection.
Fraud on my clients, with regard to the
ability to lock their funds and prevent any access to it; and fraud pertaining to bank balances and my general banking business. BY MR. RABIN: Q Now, you have said you testified previously
that Mr. Spinosa gave you permission to sign his name, correct? A My recollection is that there was one occasion I was talking to him
when I was on the speaker phone.
about needing something signed, and he said, just sign my name. Q Let me ask you about that. If you authorize
somebody in your office to sign your name -- which you did on occasion, correct? A Q There were tons of people signing my name. Tons of people. With your permission, right? With and without. Okay. Were they -- the people that you told
them to sign -- by the way, "with or without," who was United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be more. Q All right. When you gave these people signing your name without your permission? A There were people all over the firm, I came to I don't specifically recall,
learn, signing my name.
but my name was being signed on a lot of different things. Q Okay. Let's talk about the ones where you Who were
gave people permission to sign your name. those people? A
Debra Villegas, Amy Howard, Mary Beth Feiss,
David Boden. Q Now, when you gave them permission to sign
your name -A Q A Q Stu Rosenfeldt. I'm sorry. That's it, I think. When you gave these people permission to sign
your name -A Q A Irene Stay. Tell me when you're done. Maybe Bill Brock. That's all I remember at this time. There may
permission to sign your name, would they just sign your name with their hand? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yeah, they scribbled it. Okay. Now, with respect to Frank Spinosa
giving you permission to sign his name, you didn't just scribble his name, did you? A Q No. You cut and pasted a real signature of Frank
Spinosa's onto a document in order to make it appear as if he had actually signed it, correct? A Sure. Because when he said, just go ahead and
sign my name, I took that as put his signature on there. We were in the middle of committing a fraudulent act, so I didn't think that he thought that I just signed his name to the document. That wouldn't fulfill the purpose
because we were going to send that document off to a client. Q A Okay. I am not going to tell a legitimate investor
that I signed the banker's name. Q So did Frank tell you, listen, you need to --
if you're going to -- sign my name, but if you're going to sign my name, you need to cut and paste so it looks like my signature? A Q A No, sir. He didn't do that? No, sir. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2177 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q You took that initiative on your own? I did. Okay. Couple of things. You had some kind of
a system at your office where a voice message to you would be transcribed into an email to you; is that correct? A Q A Yeah. It's called SimulScribe.
And explain to us how that worked, please. I don't really know how it works. I know that
if you called and left a message, that it would transcribe the message as best as it could. Q Okay. And so when we see -- and you would get
it as an email? A Yeah, but you can tell it's SimulScribe
because it looks like it's coming from a telephone number. Q So that's how those -- it would be an email
message that appears to be coming from a phone number? A Q Yes. And that would be the system where somebody
left a message on your phone and it was transcribed and sent to you, correct? A Q that? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Yes. Was that automatic, or did you have to request
Page 2178 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 In other words, did you have to request it to transcribe the message, or all the messages that came into your phone automatically transcribed? A No. If you left a message -- during the
period of time that I had SimulScribe active, if you left a message, it would have been transcribed, and it should say something like "phone tag" on it, on the message. Q Did the system automatically send the messages
to you, or did they go to somewhere else and you had them forwarded to you? A I think they came directly to my email, but I
don't recall. Q Yesterday -- I believe it was yesterday -- you
were shown one of your -- an email to one of your events, and you said that the email list of the people invited was cut off, and you remember you pointed to the arrows on the side? A Yes. MR. RABIN: Okay. Let me show you what I
think is going to be a more complete list. This is Exhibit Number 257. extra copies of this. (Thereupon, the document was marked as Spinosa Exhibit 257 for Identification.) United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 We have some
Page 2179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yes. Q Well, my first question is this: Does this MR. SCHLESINGER: 112310-0144261. BY MR. RABIN: Q A Let me know when you're done reviewing it. Yes. Unless you want me to read every name, FP, on the bottom,
appear to you to be a complete list of the people that went to or that you invited to this event? A I can't -- I can't tell one way or the other. The problem with the way my system was working, for almost -- I think it was actually the entire time that I was sending out event invitations, was that I could never get the whole group thing to work properly. So I actually had to sit there and go through
everyone's email addresses and click and paste and click and paste. So the lists will vary from event to event. I tried to be as inclusive as I needed to be for each event. Q But at least for this email, it appears to be
the complete list that you sent for this email? A Q A I -- again, I can't tell one way or other. Well -I mean, I may have sent the same -- I had --
if you look through my email traffic, I generally sent United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2180 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the same invitation multiple times to different groups of people. I would send out one, and I would figure out that I left out people. I would send out another, and
then someone would remind me to include someone else, so we'd send out another. Q So this one appears to go -- so it starts with
the A's and goes to the W's, correct, and then there's some A's at the end again? A Yeah. The reason is A is at the end again,
because I had to go through -- what I would do is pull up each address, click on it and paste it over, click on it and paste it over; and then, if I forget somebody, I would go back and do it again. And then, once this was sent out, if my staff realized or I realized I didn't copy somebody or I met someone new, perhaps, I would send out another one and another one. Q Okay. This particular event was a Charlie
Crist event at your house -A Q Yes. -- correct? All right. There are a number of people that
you named throughout the course of your deposition that were on this list. It's kind of a summary of many of
Page 2181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the people that you involved in some way or another in your scheme, correct? A Q Some of them, yes. All right. And others that you didn't
involved that are on the list, right? A Q Most of them I didn't involve. Okay. Do you remember -- like does this help
refresh your recollection as to who was at this event in any way? A Q Not at all. Do you -- for example, Mr. Scherer is on this
list; do you recall him attending that event? A Q I have no recollection one way or the other. So you don't know whether he was or was not. I also note that none of the TD Bank employees are on this list, that is the ones that you named most prominently: Mr. Spinosa. A Q A I don't see them on there. Okay. Is there a reason for that? What do you mean, is there a Ms. Kerstetter, Ms. Caretsky and
I don't know.
reason for it? Q them? A I just got done telling you that this list may United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 Is there a reason that you didn't include
Page 2182 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not be inclusive. I would certainly not intentionally
cut them out; although, I don't think I would invite Ms. Caretsky or Ms. Kerstetter; but I definitely invited Frank to certain political events, and he showed up at certain political events. Q I know you're saying that, but this is the
email for this event, and you're saying that if he's not on this one, he could be on another one, correct? A Yes. When you first started questioning me, I
told you that I sent out multiple invitations to the same event. Q I understand. But there would be -- if he was on one of these lists, there would be an email -- there would be email trace of it, correct? A Unless someone deleted the email, it wasn't
recovered, there should be an email record of it, yes, sir. Q Do you have -- as you sit here today, can you
say with certainty that Frank Spinosa received an email to this event? A No. Because here's the problem that you have
is that I also verbally invited many people to these events. I could invite people that I intended to call I could invite someone in
and did, in fact, call.
Page 2183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 passing that I just met today to an event on a particular day. It -- this -- the best way to see if someone came to an event, Mr. Rabin, is what I testified over the last seven days; and that is, check the attendance list. Q All right. And the person that would -- that
we could check that attendance list from is who again? A You can check with -- I believe the trustee You could check those records; and
has all our records.
probably the best place to check would be with the campaigns, themselves, because they maintain records of who showed up, who brought a check, who didn't, how much they brought. MR. RABIN: Just a couple more questions,
and then I have to wrap up. But I do want to put on the record that I am -- need a lot more time with you. But
because of the constraints on the order, I'm not going to be able to have it. But I just
want to put on the record that on behalf of Mr. Spinosa, that the time that we have been allotted is insufficient, and we would like to have additional time at some future date.
Page 2184 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A BY MR. RABIN: Q Regarding Mr. Scherer, just a couple of
questions about him again. You said that -You know something -- one second, Mr. Rabin. Again, I just -- I was just, for some reason I was thinking back to the whole Morocco thing. I called Marc -- just so you have the information -- a couple of days after I was there. It was subsequent to a meeting that he had had after I spoke to him. I remember him telling me, asking
me, what the hell is going on, because he had just had some kind of meeting with Stu and Grant Smith and them, if that helps you time frame-wise. toward the 30th or 31st. Q And you were still thinking about suicide It was also more
after that call; is that what you're saying? A I was thinking of killing myself the entire
time that I was there. Q With Mr. Scherer, you had more of a
relationship with him than you have disclosed so far; isn't that fair to say? MR. SCHERER: No. Objection to form.
What you're doing is twisting my words.
I had a good relationship with Mr. Scherer. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2185 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I -BY MR. RABIN: Q A Define that. Let me finish. I considered him my friend. business with him. Q A Q A How many times? Multiple times. Okay. He was an extremely powerful lawyer, and I I thought it would I tried to do
wanted to do business with him. increase my legitimate business.
He tried to help me get on committees. tried to send my law firm work.
He
Mr. Scherer, I believe -- it is my opinion that he believed we were a legitimate, up-and-coming law firm, and he tried to do good things for us. Q Did you refer any of your -- the people that
invested in your Ponzi scheme to him as clients? A No, sir. MR. RABIN: Okay. All right. That's all
the time that I have been allotted. Again, for the record, I would request additional time, at the appropriate time. MR. LICHTMAN: I think the record should
Page 2186 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. CRAIG: Q I'm going to be showing you a new exhibit, 258 It's an email dated April 22nd, Bank. It was you. THE WITNESS: No, no. reflect that there is not a lawyer in the room that would represent that they have had sufficient time. There are issues, but everybody has been acting civil. ALL PRESENT: THE WITNESS: MR. CRAIG: THE WITNESS: I'll stipulate to that. Who's next? I have five minutes. Okay. I actually expected
to see you sitting there when I first came in this morning. That's the way I'm used to
starting my day. MR. CRAIG: I hope I didn't disappoint
FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION
for Identification.
2009, 8:30 p.m., from you to Bill Brock; Subject: It is part of the Trustee's original production.
not located until last night when an additional search was performed based upon Mr. Rothstein's testimony yesterday, and it was discovered through an inadvertent misspelling of my client's first name, Rosanne. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be? MR. RABIN: BY MR. CRAIG: Q I'm also going to show you at the same time a 258. And that's how it was discovered, and that's why it wasn't produced beforehand. (Thereupon, the document was marked as Caretsky Exhibit 258 for Identification.) MR. SCHERER: What number is it going to
copy of 223, which was the email exhibit which I showed you yesterday. A Q email? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Yes, sir. You had an opportunity to look at the new What is that, Exhibit 258? Yes, sir. Do you recognize it? Yes. And what do you recognize it as? An email to Mr. Brock. Do you recall sending that email to Mr. Brock? I do. Could you read it out loud, please. Need you to be out there first thing in the You need to
a.m. with the same printout we just used.
get it from Deb and you need to figure out a way to get United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2188 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it into a sealed envelope from TD and have Roseanne (sic) or one of her people hand it to me. Q A Q Okay. That was on April 22nd of 2009?
Correct, sir. Wouldn't you agree, sir, that that is
inconsistent with your prior testimony that Rosanne was on board as of the first "show" back in October of 2008, six months beforehand? A Q A Q A Two things. One --
Yes or no, and then explain. As I just said, no, it's not consistent. Okay. It's inconsistent. It's -- hold on. It's not -- we're double and
triple no'ing. testimony. Q
It is not inconsistent with my prior
Is that the same as it is consistent with your
prior testimony? A Q A It is consistent with my prior testimony. Okay. Okay. You can explain. Two things. One, all right, with
regard to the timing of when Rosanne got involved, okay, I have been crystal clear throughout my testimony that I don't know the date. Okay. I do know that there were points in United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2189 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time when Mr. Caputi was doing this for me, and my best recollection is that that was prior to Ms. Caretsky's involvement. That's my best recollection. As far as figuring out a way to get it into a sealed envelope, if you'll notice on here, it says "or one of her people." Okay. And the only person that I had talked
to about doing this was Rosanne, and if she was not going to be out there, he was going to have to do the placement of the documents. So it's not -- it is consistent with what I have been saying all along. Q But isn't it crystal clear from this email
that you anticipated that Rosanne was going to be out there -A Q A Q No. -- based -- let me -Sorry. I apologize.
Let me finish the question. -- based upon the statement -- and I'm quoting
-- You need to figure out a way to get it into a sealed envelope from TD and have Roseanne (sic) or one of her people hand it to me? A And I'm telling you that I was frequently United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2190 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unartful in writing emails and my concern was the "one of her people." If Rosanne was, on April 22nd, 2009 -- you'd have to lay out the time line using the emails -involved at that moment, okay, which I believe she was, then this was directed to the problem that she wasn't even going to be there. And this has to be a harried -- you have got to give me the email traffic. As I said other day when
we talked about these emails, I need to see all the email traffic from before this email and after this email -Q A Okay. -- otherwise I can't tell. Because I have got
to tell you something, that normally I knew who was going to be at the bank. So another thing that this email is telling me is that this was a very harried thing that was going on, that Bill was rushing around, that I was rushing around, because we didn't even know. Normally we know: Rosanne is going to be at So we
the bank; Kerstetter is going to be at the bank.
don't know who is going to be at the bank, and we deal with it according. Q Is that why it says "urgent" underneath the United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2191 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 text of the email? A Q I'm sorry? Is that why you insert the word "urgent"
underneath the text of the email? A I would be guessing. It was urgent because
someone wanted to do a bank visit, and I needed to make sure that this was not screwed up -Q A Well --- when we got out there. The other thing is, is that, as I'm reading this, it's also -- and it's most likely that someone else -- that I was concerned that someone else was going to be there. Because when I said "you need to figure
out a way to get it into a sealed envelope," if it was definitely going to be Rosanne, there would be no reason for him to have to figure out how to get it in there. MR. CRAIG: Let me go ahead and object
and move to strike based upon you prefacing the last part of that answer with "most likely." BY MR. CRAIG: Q You remember, we don't want to guess here.
You agreed not to do so, sir, correct? A Q Yes. Okay. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 223? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 A I don't want to guess, but I'm telling you
what was going on at the time. Q Okay. You said you wanted to see some email
traffic from both before and after. A Q Yes, please. I'll call your attention to 223, which is the
email I showed you yesterday. A Q Do you have a copy of it? Check -MR. RABIN: THE WITNESS: No. You have it. Oh, I do? 223 I have.
I'm sorry.
MR. CRAIG: MR. RABIN: you both copies. THE WITNESS: I apologize. MR. RABIN: MR. SCHERER:
Yeah, I gave them -Here's another copy. I gave
Hang on one second.
Here's another copy. What is this last exhibit
number, the "urgent"? MR. CRAIG: THE WITNESS: BY MR. CRAIG: Q What's the date and time on that email, the 258. Okay.
Page 2193 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 A Let's see. Okay. intertwined. You have got April 22nd at 2034. that's 8:34 in the evening? the 22nd. Q A What time -That's 223. Let's see. It starts -- these are kind of
That is the 22nd.
It's eight something in the evening. 2036, isn't it? Hang on a second. April 22nd at 2033. That's 8:33, right?
So that's after this first one. And then -- then they seem to proceed. So what looks like -- would you like me to explain this? Q A Q I'm confirming my eyesight here. That's all right. I know the feeling.
2033, 2036, 34, whatever, it's within minutes
of the email that I just showed you today marked 258? A Right. Right. But the timing of it is
important, and I'll show you why. Q A Okay. Sure. MR. CRAIG: For the record, we read the Wait for a question.
time on the email from yesterday, 223, as 2036, but we'll stand corrected.
Page 2194 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. CRAIG: Q If Rosanne was actually on board at that time,
that being April 22nd of 2008, you wouldn't need Uncle Bill to figure out a way to get the fake account balance into an envelope, correct? A Q A You're misreading the email, sir. I'm asking you a question. If she was on board and there were not going
to be any other problems out there, other people at the bank that we were going to have problems with, then he wouldn't have had to figure out a way to do it. Q A Q And like -We would have to make sure that she did it. And likewise with respect to No. 223, if
Rosanne was on board as of April 22nd of 2009, you would not need to have Uncle Bill work magic to get our statements in the envelope and get her to hand it to me, correct? A As I testified the other day when you asked me
about this, yes, I would. You're assuming that "work magic" means that he's got to sneak around behind her back. "Work magic" is to make sure -- you know, Bill was an expert, and one of the things you'll see when you question him, he was an expert at relationships. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Everybody loves, quote, unquote, Uncle Bill. So Billy working his magic to get our statements into the envelope is to make sure that Rosanne is following through, as I said the other day, with what she was supposed to do. Q Let's see if we can clear up the matter of the
possibility that Rosanne wasn't going to be there. Okay. Why don't you take a look at Exhibit 223. Actually, you're -- you have both of these
marked as 223 now. MR. RABIN: MR. CRAIG: No. Let's do it again.
The one with the yellow
exhibit marker, 258, is the one from today. THE WITNESS: 258? Okay. Hang on one second. Okay. We just
I have got that.
have an extra copy. MR. CRAIG: that says -THE WITNESS: Hang on a second. I now And now do you have something
have 223 from the other day and 258. BY MR. CRAIG: Q Okay. 223 from the other day, at the top,
could you read the text of the email at the top of that exhibit? United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2196 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. "Bank opens at 7:30. Rosanne will be in
at seven for us." Q Stop. This confirms, Mr. Rothstein, that there was no question in your mind at that time that Rosanne was going to be at the bank that day? A You are 100 percent incorrect, and you're not Let me explain, please. It is clear that on
reading this in order.
Look at the first email.
April 22nd, 2009, at 8:30 p.m. I did not know who was going to be at the bank. By April 22nd at 8:58 and 25 seconds p.m., that is when I knew. So at the time I wrote the first email that I've already described and explained, I did not know who was going to be there. Twenty-some-odd minutes later, I did know who was going to be there. MR. CRAIG: We ready for a break?
I would likewise reserve the right on behalf of Ms. Caretsky. MR. SCHERER: I would like to reserve
some time for redirect examination, especially since they keep throwing my name on these invite lists and other things that I wish United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221
Page 2197 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 me. MR. NURIK: The time was made up; and by you'd clear up. MR. LAUER: Well, you're welcome to
testify as a witness at trial, but there is no rebuttal or redirect. I would like to ask that everybody be back here promptly at 1:00 because I have been assigned four hours or so. MR. SCHERER: We protest that.
There is rebuttal if
there's time, according to the order. MR. LAUER: You already took -- You
already took an extra half an hour in violation of the protocol which impinged on our ability -- I want this down -- which impinged our ability to live within the small amount of time that we have been allotted. MR. LICHTMAN: MR. LAUER: Actually that time --
So you don't get rebuttal.
You have already had your rebuttal. MR. LICHTMAN: though. That time was made up,
That time was made up. The time was not made up for
MR. LAUER:
the way, you don't run the show. MR. LICHTMAN: You need to work that out
Page 2198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 with your defense counsel. MR. SCHERER: out together. MR. LICHTMAN: The plaintiffs and Right. You need to work it
defendants get the same amount. MR. LAUER: I don't accept that, and
we're going to have -- we're entitled to have our rights respected. (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) -
Page 2199 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 ______________________________ Michele L. Savoy, RPR Notary Public - State of Florida My Commission No. EE 113173 Expires August 6, 2015 I, Michele L. Savoy, Shorthand Reporter do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did report the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a true record. Dated this 21st day of December 2011. THE STATE OF FLORIDA, ) COUNTY OF BROWARD. ) C E R T I F I C A T E
Page 2200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221 ___________________________________ Michele L. Savoy, RPR Notary Public - State of Florida My Commission No. EE 113173 Expires August 6, 2015 I, Michele L. Savoy, Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did report said deposition in stenotype; and that the foregoing pages, numbered from 2027 to 2200, inclusive, are a true and correct transcription of my shorthand notes of said deposition. I further certify that I am not an attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel or party connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means unless under the direct control and/or direction of the certifying reporter. Dated this 21st day of December, 2011. C E R T I F I C A T E THE STATE OF FLORIDA, ) COUNTY OF BROWARD. )

2011-12-21 Rothstein Scott AM

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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 17TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA Case No.

DAY 7 - MORNING SESSION DEPOSITION OF SCOTT W. ROTHSTEIN

DATE TAKEN: TIME: PLACE:

United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221

CONTINUING DIRECT EXAMINATION

Page 2036 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A Q Okay. I've reviewed it.

Love ya, Mikey."

We never used the word "Ponzi scheme."

that means. BY MS. EVANS: Q A

Was he -He was aware that we were lying to investors.

This witness has answered about

Just let me finish. You're making a speech.

MR. SCHLESINGER: MR. SCHERER:

Don't interrupt me.

form every time.

-- I can't tell you whether it's been before

This doesn't speak to it one way or the other.

recollection whatever? A I have a recollection of probably meeting over So

BY MS. EVANS: Q Would that jog your memory in any way as to

There was the hedge funds in New York.

the sheer magnitude of paper in this case.

I don't know what that question means.

BY MS. EVANS: Q Well, you said you can't recall anything

I did, to my knowledge, to the best of my

met someone from Emess. finish.

You must understand that Mr. Spinosa came on It was

many occasions to Bova to have a drink with me.

So the answer to the question is you don't

He very well may have met someone from TD

I'm quoting the Emess complaint filed against

TD Bank in this case. United Reporting, Inc. (954) 525- 2221

And I'm going to read you a statement and you

that occurred. Q Okay. Do you know -- do you have personal

Emess that? Q Do you have personal knowledge whether someone

Page 2049 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did anyone at TD Bank personally assist you

Mr. Spinosa about real estate values.

best of my recollection, no. Q To your knowledge, was it Mr. Szafranski who

Page 2050 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don't remember the exact date but it would

being in his office in New York someplace.

anyone that you met? A Q A I do not. Other than Mr. Lifshitz.

quite a bit of time. Q How long do most meetings last -- most of

these meetings last? A You're talking about hundreds of meetings. I

meet for ten minutes with someone.

deal I did with him, so I have a record. record of it. Q

Now, I think you've testified that one of the

something I would have done.

So if you have something

Was it your perception that there were

that Mr. Nurik is writing a note to Mr. Nurik.

Thank you. I think so, too.

Exhibit 241, a series of emails. composite exhibit.

the record first. please.

He is insulted you have not called him back. His threatening to

Please do it for your little bro.

want to read the entire email into the record.

Why don't we do this differently --

the first page.

No, but whenever I did call -- I don't No, I don't.

are 99 percent sure on the 2.8.

recall him looking for an insurance policy.

insurance policy? A Somebody brought -- excuse me -- brought up

from the -- Von Allmen, A.J., that group. certain. Q

Now, to your knowledge, had Mr. Damson ever

spending time with me.