My Friendly Discussion with a Christian Friend

Dear brothers and sisters, Here I am presenting the vast but deep conversation I have done with one of my Christian friend. As per his request, his actual name is not used anywhere in this document; instead I have used the name 'David' to represent my friend. My humble request to all of you is to read all the comments and replies given by me and by him. Then you have the choice to think and proceed as per your understandings. The reading may not be much smooth since some parts of the discussions needs much deep thoughts. So take time and read each parts thoroughly. The discussions were based on the following main topics: 1. Whether Jesus God or not? 2. Whether presently available Bible authentic or not? and 3. Nicaea Council. But while documentation, I had divided the whole discussions into different chapters for the convenience of readers. Even though I am representing Islam, some mistakes may be there regarding Islam from my side; since I am not a very brilliant scholar. The Muslim scholars can comment on them.

Ultimately, all the readers are allowed to comment, suggest, etc.

(In this document, my comments are given in Blue color; and my Friend's comments are in Black for the convenience of Readers.)

Index
Discussion Started on .
1. David Just Started . 2. Children of God!! 3. What God had Done; What Jesus had Done . Anybody have Seen God ?? 4. Is Todays Bible Gods Words?? 5. Is God was with God!? 6. What Jesus had told about himself?? 7. Are Jesus and Father Same or Different or .?? 8. Is Adam a God?? 9. Jesus vs Almighty God!! 10. Secrets of Bible!! 11. Whether Son = Father?? 12. Isnt God Present Everywhere?? 13. Is Mathematics Wrong?? 14. The Chain of Contradictions!! 15. Almighty vs Weak God!! 16. Is Elijah a God?? 17. Is God Cruel to His Son?? 18. Aim of Arrival of Jesus? 19. Is John Greater than Jesus?? 20. Had God Mistaken?? 21. Does Bible Say Jesus is a Prophet?? 22. Welcomes New Discussions!! 23. Are Normal Believers Greater than Jesus?? 24. Dont Shut Up Your Mind in front of Truth!! 25. Dont Stop Receiving Blessings from God!! 26. Appearance and Disappearance of God!! 27. Are God and Prophet Same!? 28. Application-Limited Holy Spirit!! 29. A Needy (dependent) Spirit of God!! 30. If Jesus was a God .. 31. Can a Human Body do Gods Deeds?? 32. Please Utilize this Opportunity!! 33. Whether Manager himself is a Servant!? 34. Is God limited to Israel?? 35. Some Critical Questions before proceeding

36. Can a Human become Male and Female Simultaneously!? 37. Will God Do Everything!? 38. Doesnt Islam teach Love!? 39. Welcomes New discussion.. 40. Nicaea Council & Authority of Bible 41. The Unavoidable History & the Growth of Christian Believes!! 42. Is Bible Authentic?? 43. The Major Aims & Unavoidable Facts 44. Partial Incomplete Godheads!! 45. Personal request!!! 46. An Invitation to Islam; the Revised New Version of Jesus' Religion 47. Explicit Contradictions from Bible!! 48. Whether Holy Spirit Misguided (Mislead) the Writers of Bible?? 49. Some References from Bible 50. Is Jesus a God?: Pros and Cons

Discussion Started on.

Amlp ]dbp k`w: abans aI Cukm, Amlphn\v ]pdsa Fsbpw, Fs amXmhns\bpw ssZhfmnsmphn Fv \obmtWm P\tfmSv ]dXv? Atlw ]dbpw: \osb{X ]cnip! F\nv (]dbm) bmsXmcp AhImihpanmXv Rm ]dbmhXtm? Rm\Xv ]dncpsn Xobmbpw \obXv Adnncnpatm. Fs a\nepXv \o Adnbpw. \ns a\nepXv Rm\dnbn. Xobmbpw \o XsbmWv AZriyImcy Adnbph. \o FtmSv I]n Imcyw AYhm Fsbpw \nfpsSbpw cnXmhmb Amlpsh \n Bcm[nWw F Imcyw am{Xta Rm\htcmSv ]dnpq. Rm AhnSbn Dmbncptmsgms Rm AhcpsS ta kmnbmbncpp. ]noSv \o Fs ]qambn GsSptm \o Xsbmbncpp Ahsc \nconncph. \o Fm Imcyn\pw kmnbmIpp. (]cnip JpB. 5: 116---117 ) And [beware the Day] when Allah (God) will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah (God)?' "He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me to worship Allah (God), my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. Holy Quran. 5: 116-117

1. David Just Started

..

David: Dear Jaseem, Here I have typed some of the verses from, Gospel According to John, Chapter 1, in Bible. John used a lovely language to narrate the Gospel in his book. It is very nice to read this Gospel. If you get time please go through the full chapter. In a single chapter more than 10 times it is written that JESUS is the SON OF GOD. If you are with the world, you wont believe this truth, because it was like that from the past. If you are with the God, you will believe in this. Kindly take some time and read my mail fully, as it is not just a forwarded mail. I have typed all the sentences for you. Please don't ignore what I have written in it. Please reply only after reading the mail completely. The Gospel according to John, Chapter 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. Here, He, Him = Jesus. As a normal Human Being, I understood that the Jesus was with God from the beginning. Did you understand something differently??? Jaseem: The things are conflict in the given sentence: He was with God in the beginning---what does it mean? Think about the following Sentences: 1. The God was with God in the beginning 2. Jesus was with God in the beginning ---- you just reply your feelings about these.

I am feeling that 1st sentence is having some mistake . So it is clear that Jesus is not the God .or if you believe the sentence, and the Word was God is correct, then the sentence He was with God in the beginning is wrong. Think about it . You will get it, if you know the language!.

David: Here the Word is Jesus Christ. Jesus is a man who is God's word, has taken the form of a simple human being, to show completely; who is God and how God is. if Word =God

and He(Jesus) = Word, then Jesus = God. To get this idea fully, it is required to read the bible fully.

Jaseem: {One thing: ...Dear friend, this is not fight and I will not get any reward if I defeat you; my aim to do my duty; ie., to share my knowledge... Also I believe that no one will become good or bad by birth in a particular family or religion.... } My question is; anywhere Jesus had told that he is a God.... The answer is No... But you are telling the above things as evidence.... My simple question is: "Jaseem was with Jaseem" or "David was with David" Are these 2 sentences OK? Never; Then how can you say "God was with God"..... You can never say this...until or otherwise there is some difference between 1st and 2nd God/ Jaseem/ David. You just think about it in deep.. As I told earlier, if 1st sentence is correct, then 2nd is absolutely wrong.. You can read Bible once more...

2. Children of God!!
David: 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God. Jaseem: Here (in 1st part) nothing is specified about God or son of God .but is telling that the people were not believed in him first time... (Here him can be a prophet/ messenger) since this was the experience by every messengers. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--- this means all those believe in Jesus, will be sons of God . Then Jesus is son of God means he is just like those who believe is a God). David: He WAS in the world and the world was made through him. If Jesus is just a human being, it is not possible to be present in the world before he born to the earth and the world was made through him. This indicates that he is not just a human being. No other prophets were present before they born to the earth. This means Jesus is not just a prophet. To those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. If I am a child of God, then I can't give others the right to be God's children, by believing in my name, as I am not a God. Here Jesus is telling that you can be God's children by believing in me. This indicates that Jesus is not just a human being like me or you and not a prophet to give the authority in his own. Jaseem: Here my question is "who told Jesus is a God"... He never told this and only you say "God's son is God". So you must agree that if anybody believe in Jesus will also become God as per Bible (since they become children). David: Jaseem, now you are also with the world, because, you did not recognize him as the son of God. You are God's Child, but you are not accepting the truth. You are not ready to receive the truth. If you are ready to believe in his name, you will also get the assurance that you are the child of God. . (It doesnt mean that he

Here is a big opportunity.... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Why you have doubt that Jesus is not the Son of God after seeing this bible verses??
14

Jaseem: As per bible itself, the given sentence is wrong: 1. 2. Above, you told that all those believe in Jesus, will be sons of God . But Bible says about sons of God in following chapters also (you can check it)

I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men. (samual_2nd 7:14) I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, You are my son. Today I have become your father. (Psalm 2:7) They shall come with weeping; and with petitions will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (Jeremiah:31:9) the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke-3:38) So if you believe in Bible, you should also believe that Solomon, Daveed, Ephraim, Adam, etc. were also sons of God. So tell me any 1 from below 1. 2. All of them are Gods None of them is God

David: Examples 1-4 are prophecies of different prophets, that means God is telling that I am your father and you are my son. Here no one is saying that I am the son of God. God has the freedom to make me or you as his children. In fact all are God's children. Here the scenario is different. Jesus itself is telling that I am the Son Of God. Without getting the authority from the God, no one can tell like that. That means Jesus has the authority to tell that he is the Son of God and he has the assurance about that. As per Luke, when he is explaining about the generations of Jesus Christ, he is going in the descending order and finally he is reaching Adam. so he is telling that he is the Son of God, meaning that God directly created Adam from mud. In Genesis itself it is clearly mentioned about the creation and it is clear that Luke means the creation. The Advice is that please don't take the bible in a word by word meaning. Take bible as a

whole and try to read it and understanding it. Otherwise it will become like the blinds went to see the elephant. Please don't try to find out the verses just for an argument. You will never understand what the Bible is! Jaseem: Here what you have said is entirely wrong.... If your father says to me, "Hey Jaseem, David is my son" what does it mean?... Should I disbelieve this up to when you say "he is my father"...? As your father is a human being sometimes I should disbelieve him.... But what you are saying is "We should not believe the Almighty's words also".

3. What God had Done; What Jesus had Done Anybody have Seen God???
Jaseem: You told Jesus himself said those things (that he is Gods son)..... But what Bible is telling that "Jesus never said even a single word himself". See the sentence below: By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me- John 5:30 I believe that God is almighty; but Jesus is telling that he can't do anything...... then how can he become a God?... think yourself. David: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. Are you seeing this verse for the first time?? That's why I am telling that you please don't read bible with the mind of a critic. You wont understand a single word. You cannot understand Bible with your human logic. It is beyond the logic of Human Beings. Please try to read the Bible with a peaceful mind. Then you will understand more...
18

Jaseem: Here explicitly bible is telling that Jesus is not the God; otherwise the sentence No one has ever seen God will become wrong; hence bible itself will become wrong. (Here please note that Bible is not telling: No one had ever seen Father; instead Bible told: No one had ever seen God) Think if you can!!.. David: Here you did not understand the meaning of the verse correctly. It is simple English and it is written in a beautiful way. 18 No one has ever seen God, (Except) but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. We can split the sentences like this. 1. Jesus has made the (Father) God known fully to the world. 2. Jesus is in closest relationship with the Father (God). 3. Jesus himself is God. 4. Except Jesus Christ no one has ever seen God. Jaseem:

Here what you are saying is Jesus only had seen God; and through Jesus, people know there is a God. Same thing I also am saying..... ie, 'People (of Israel) had seen Jesus; but never seen God (since he was not the God)'. If Jesus is God, then we can say; "Bible is wrong" as per above sentence. David: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel. -John, the baptist and the Prophet of Israel testifying that Jesus is the Son of God. Andrew, Simon Peters brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. 41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, We have found the Messiah (that is, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus. -Andrew, a disciple of Jesus Christ is testifying him.
49 40 29

Then Nathanael declared, Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel. -Nathanael testifying Jesus.

Jaseem: I believe that I already told the answer for it or what I told is enough for it.... Some more things last: I am not arguing that Islam is the right; but what I am saying is "As per my knowledge (or understanding), I believe that Islam is the best and right; If I understand anything else better (in future), I will change myself" ..... Like this you can also think..... Because our (or my) aim is not to criticize or defeat anybody; but to get the heaven......

4. Is Todays Bible Gods Words??

David: I am not trying to argue with you or defeat you. I have started the discussion only because of you, that you are trying to prove Jesus is not the Son of God by quoting Bible itself. So it is my duty to share the truth with you. As per my knowledge Christianity is the best and God shown him fully in Jesus Christ. I have accepted the truth that Jesus is the Son of God and hence it is my duty to share that knowledge with you since you are saying that Jesus is not the Son of God without understanding or reading the Bible fully by sticking on to one or two sentences in the Bible. Like Muslims, Christians do not have the teaching that we should try to understand the bible word by word. Our teaching is that please try to understand the Bible as a whole. If you want to understand a person, please try to understand him as a whole. By two or three characters we cannot judge a person. So please read the bible and try to understand it as a whole. One person went to see Gomatheswara statue. By covering 108 steps, he saw only the leg of the Statue. So by seeing only one sentence you will get only a vague idea about the Bible, Jesus, and the message of the Bible. Please don't judge or stick on to the single sentence, just for an argument. My other mails will give you the clarity about the same. I thing I am sure about is, you will know the truth in the near future and you will believe in it. The Truth will set you free.... Jaseem: I also like to say the same thing to you: "don't tell or judge anything without understanding or reading the Bible fully; by sticking on to one or two sentences in the Bible". And please don't judge or stick on to the single sentence, just for an argument. But the real reason for not to consider words in Bible is because the existing bible has many conflicts and contradictions and is not the words from God. We believe that Qur'an is the words of God. So there should not be any conflict even though we are analyzing a single word itself. And Holy Quran is saying: "If it (Qur'an) is not from God; you might have seen much conflicts in it". David: Dear Jaseem. You have two options. Either you believe in Bible fully or don't believe in Bible at all. Partial belief wont do any good for you. Because, Jesus said, without attracted by Father, no one will come to me and believe me.

Hence, it is your destiny that you believe or not. What is the use of teaching students in Arabic? What is the use of this Arabic Malayalam? By that time please teach the youth of your religion about LOVE, the ultimate message from God. Because Bible says GOD IS LOVE. So that we can avoid terrorism and all. How much they can understand a foreign language and understand the concepts? Hence it is better to translate it to a language, to which that people belongs by some persons, who is having good knowledge in both the Languages. I don't think that God's language is Arabic or Aramaic or Greek or Hebrew. God's language is Love. Hence whatever be the Language, the message will be the same. These translations are done by the persons who dedicated their life for it and lead by the Holy Spirit. So if you don't believe in Bible, please stop quoting The Holy Bible for your False teachings. Also, I will stop my discussions here. Otherwise, you should believe in Bible fully and prove that Jesus is not the Son of God according to Bible. I am challenging you, you can't !!!!!. Because the Bible is written to show that Jesus is the Son of God. Jaseem: Why are you studying Malayalam, Hindi, etc.?. Those are limited only in 1 state or country. But Arabic is a global language which is the national language in a couple of countries (This is not related to our topic). Besides all these facts, Original version of Holy Quran is in Arabic. So studying Arabic will help people to understand Holy Quran very clearly and directly. Arabic Malayalam (transliteration) is having no importance and Quran is not using those. The meaning of word Islam itself is peace. And it teaches the men to love also. But the only difference from Christianity is: Christianity says God is love; instead Islam says God is love, peace, mercy, justice, beneficent, and moreover almighty and trying to enhance the people in all good qualities. Islam never teaches terrorism. God explicitly says to Prophet (in Quran): You have the duty to invite all the mankind to the right path; but you have no rights to compel them in belief. And 1 simple example from History: You know that a lot of wars had happened in Islamic History; but you may not know what the aim of Muslims was. (People do wars for establishing peace also; just keep it in mind). After one war, Hims (a place) came under Muslims; but immediately another war started in Anthakkiya (Damascus) by the enemies of Islam. So the Muslims told to the people in Hims (majority of them were Christians): We are going to Anthakkiya. So you may take your

taxes (that you had paid for our government) back. But none of those Christians were willing to do it; instead they became sad and prayed for the Muslims: May the Almighty bring you back to here . {You can refer History; this incident had happened at the time of Khalif Umar}. -----Do you know how Christianity reached in todays critical situation?; because of wrong translations and interpretations by some of our fore-fathers. How many versions/ varieties of Bible are there now in world?. Also now Christians are using RSV (Revised Std. Version)!. How many contradictions are there between different Bibles?. (If original copy of Bible was there, none of these problems would come). Translated copies of Holy Quran also are there; available in most of Languages in the world, including English, Malayalam, Tamil, Kannada, Hindi, etc. (In those translated copies you can find different interpretations and explanations, but Original (Arabic) version keep all of them and thus the whole Muslims under a unique flag. Thats the Power of Original copy. One of the sites for Malayalam Holy Quran (translated) is given below (you can see it): http://www.thafheem.net/ I dont believe in todays Bible. Also, I am not challenging anything; instead just trying to share my thoughts and feelings with you. I am quoting the Bible words only to remind you that you (Christians) are keeping a Book in your hands without trying to understand it. Some more Examples: a) Bible says not to make any Statues; but you do it. b) Bible says not to eat Pigs; but you do it. c) Bible says not to drink liquor; but you do it.

5. Is God was with God!?

David: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Here, It is clearly mentioned that 1. Word Was God. 2. Word Was with God. 3. He Was with God. 4. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. ie, Word became Jesus or Word = Jesus. So (1) Become Jesus Was God. From (2) and (3) it Become Jesus Was With God. 5. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Hence, Word = Jesus =God. Jaseem. it is simple mathematics. I dont know what is the confusion in that. If Word is God and Word is Jesus, then Jesus = What?? or if A = B and A = C, then please tell me the relation between B and C. You are telling that the basic mathematical formula is wrong. Jaseem: Here many times I told that (even though not considering by words), it shows Jesus is someone else other than God; else what is the meaning of Jesus was with Jesus? How can you repeat the same wrong argument after understanding the things? Also here, it is mentioned that he was with God; not he was with father. So if he was a God; then what is the meaning of above sentence? But Bible actually is telling the truth, ie, God is one beyond Jesus. (If you again repeat the same argument, I will not respond to it; but if not clear my words, you can ask me). David: Thousand times I have told you that Jesus is the Son of God. Obviously, Son of means he is the Son of GOD. Again you are repeating some foolish arguments like David is with David, Jaseem is with Jaseem. Someone has created such an argument in your mind. Please come out of that well and please understand the concept there. If he is the Son of God, he should have the divine nature. He was with the God, before the creation. He was acting as a word of God. We can't tell anything about the Hierarchy in the Heaven and how it is arranged, because we didn't understand our three year old child, then trying to understand God's Hierarchy. Or else, if you can show a worm, that can understand the Human Hierarchy, Human will, their

relationships, their thoughts, then surely I will explain this concept very clearly. What you told is correct. In Earth, Jesus' role was as a Son of God. But in Heaven, he is having the divine nature and the role is not known. But he is divine, and not a normal Human being. As a Son, he should show his father above him in earth. However, that doesn't mean that Jesus is beyond God or God is beyond Jesus. That is simply UNKNOWN. Jaseem: I dont respond to first part. But you yourself are complicated now; sometimes you told Jesus and God are same, but now you are searching for the hierarchy!!

6. What Jesus had told about himself??

Jaseem: Whether Jesus ever told that he is the Son of God or He is the God? David: John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." John 8: 58 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" John 10: 30 "The Father and I are one." Jaseem: If considering Bible as a whole, this sentence means that if we are obeying Jesus, it is similar to obeying God. ie, God will never come to us directly; instead He sends prophets and through them God is giving the right path to Human kind. So as other prophets, Jesus also was a good prophet. And if we are considering Jesus as God by such a few sentences, then we will fail to explain most of the sentences in Bible. David: 1. First you read the above versus and understand it fully. Please answer me the meaning of the first two verses. 2. Who told you that God will never come us directly and he will send only prophets?? God ever told like that you? Or you are taking God's decision in Heaven?? If you don't know something means you should have the politeness to tell I don't know. Please don't try to make God according to your wishes and compel others to Believe like that. Please don't try to make a God of "our convenience". 3. Prove me that Jesus was just a prophet and not the Son of God with Bible. Jaseem: i. Here what I feel is contradictions Once Bible told Jesus and God are different; but here is telling both are same. (This contradictions list is given in next chapter). You can see and think!.... ii. If God directly comes, then why should He send Prophets? iii. I already have given many sentences from Bible telling that Jesus is not a God; he hadnt much power like God; and his pray to the real God at the time of crucifixion gives a clear picture about his limitations.

7. Are Jesus and Father Same or Different or

.??

David: John 14: 6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. Jaseem: If you go to meet the President if India, you have to get permission from the security polices to enter his room. But it doesnt mean security police is Indian President!. So Jesus could be a Prophet; because all Prophets had told that without believing on me, you cant go to Heaven. John 1.18 in Bible says No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. So above sentence is a contradiction!. Think!.. (Prophet Muhammad also told that obeying me is similar to obeying God. But it never means he is a God. It simply means that He is a prophet, and through his tongue, God speaks to humankind. What you had told above is also having the same meaning; nothing more). David: John 14: 8-10 8 Philip said, Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us. 9 Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 10 Dont you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? Jaseem: Please listen to above Jesus reply. Here Jesus is only telling I am in the Father, but not saying I am the Father. So it is clear that Father and Jesus are not the same. Prophet Muhammad also had told similar words to the world (explained above). David: Again that foolish argument. From the beginning itself, my point is that Jesus is the Son of God. How a Son can say I am the Father?? Jesus is the Son of God with divine nature. According to Bible, He was in the God. Jaseem: Then David, how can you say Jesus and God are same?. Sometimes you say they are the same. Eg:1. John 14:9 Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 2. John 10:30

"The Father and I are one." 3. John 5:30 I and the Father are one. 4. John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 5. Also you said Jesus, Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same. But sometimes you say they are different. Eg:1. John 1:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form. 2. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known You please think and decide any one!.

8. Is Adam a God??
David: John 11: 25 Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God." Mark 14: 61 Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One? 62 I am, said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. Jaseem: Here it is clearly mentioned that Jesus is one who had came into the world from God. So it means that God is somewhere else and Jesus is one who only came from God; not the God. If those coming from God are Gods, then Adam also should be a God. David: It's really amazing Jaseem!!! From where you are getting these kind of conclusions?? Where it is mentioned that Jesus is a Human being came from God?? What is the meaning of the question, Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One? Please read the above versus word by word. Jaseem: My answer I already had given. One more thing: Everything in the world had came from God/ created by God; but none of them is God!. Think!..

9. Jesus vs Almighty God!!

Jaseem: I believe that God is almighty; but Jesus is telling that he can't do anything......(John 5:30) then how can he become a God? David: John 8 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. 13 The Pharisees challenged him, Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid. 14 Jesus answered, Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me. 19 Then they asked him, Where is your father? You do not know me or my Father, Jesus replied. If you knew me, you would know my Father also. Colossians 1:15: "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."1 Here Paul is telling Jesus is a visible image of the Invisible God. You know that Carbon, one element is there. But can you show Carbon to me?? You cannot. But You can show the visible forms of Carbon like Charcoal and Diamond. Please apply the same analogy here. Jaseem: Prophet Muhammad also told that obeying me is similar to obeying God. But it never means he is a God. It simply means that He is a prophet, and through his tongue, God speaks to humankind. What you had told above is also having the same meaning; nothing more. David I was trying to convey a concept to you!! Unfortunately u didn't understand the meaning of the same. Jaseem: I already had given enough comments. David: 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are? 54 Jesus replied, If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

57 You are not yet fifty years old, they said to him, and you have seen Abraham! 58 Very truly I tell you, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! Please tell me what you understand from the above statements. Jaseem: Our topic is whether Jesus is God or not; none of related words I got from above. But one thing I understood is, without Father, Jesus has no power, no glory or even existence itself. So he cant be a God. David: Also please tell me what you have understand from the below passages. John 5 The works I do in my Fathers name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand. 30 I and the Father are one. Jaseem: Here Bible is telling Jesus and Father is same; which is contradictory to Bible itself (already discussed). David: John 10 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods[d]? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God cameand Scripture cannot be set aside 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, I am Gods Son? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. John 14 6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. 9 Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 10 Dont you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? Jaseem: Some are already replied and you simply repeating. You just refer to my old replies; I am not repeating the answers. And (above) Jesus told not to believe in him until he does the works of his Father. But Jesus didnt send his son for taking the sin of mankind (as his Father did); so lets wait until he does it.

10.

Secrets of Bible!!

David: Jaseem, we must need in depth thinking to understand this concept. Jaseem: Holy Quran always says that the things are very clear for those who are thinking. (Christians are believing that most of the things are secret in Bible; then think how can the people believe?, But I believe that Bible is very clear) David: Jaseem, I was mentioning about God. Even though we have in depth thinking we can't understand many of the concepts about GOD. Because he is almighty and we don't know what is happening in Heaven. My vision is a partial vision. I have the politeness to say like that. The only thing I am trying to say is, you please stop saying Jesus is not the Son of God, he is just a prophet or a human being, by quoting Bible, to your Christian friends. Because, it is a FALSE TEACHING. Now, I am quoting only the Book of JOHN. I can provide you this much evidence from the Book of John itself. If we take the whole Bible, I can give you thousands of proofs. Jaseem: I hadnt sent any part of our conversation to anybody, but if God wishes, I hope to publish it. But I promise it will not be partial. All my and your comments I hope to post to all Muslim and Christian friends. Let the people think and select the path which seems better for them. David: Jesus is God and he was the Son of God and He was there in the universe from the creation itself. When the God took the visible image of him, as a Human being, He must show the characters of a Human Being. So God took the form of a Son from the Father. As a human being, we should be polite our self. As a human being, Jesus is showing his politeness through this verse, that He is doing the will of his father, which shows his obedience and Love towards his father, as he is a Good son, so that the people in the world also imitate him and will do the will of God. Jaseem: You please tell me what other prophets had done. I believe they all have done the same thing as Jesus had done; means they all were obedient to the God. That was the reason that Bible had told that Adam, Solomon, Ephraim, Jesus, etc. were sons of God. You are believing that son of God may also mean prophet; then why cant you believe that Jesus was a good prophet?. Also as you told, when Jesus took form of Human, he should say I am a human being always; But you are telling that he told as he is a God; (which is actually cheating. But I believe that he never cheated anybody by saying lies; those lies were added to Bible by some people after Jesus lifetime).

David: Again, you are creating a God of your convenience. Again and again I tell you that you please believe Bible fully or don't Believe it at all. Jaseem: Already replied.

11.

Whether Son = Father??

David: Please read the below passage: Mathew 11 As Johns disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings palaces. 9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written: I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.[c] 11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. John was a prophet at the time of Jesus. Jesus is telling John the baptist is the greatest person ever born of women. So, If Jesus is also a prophet, born from a woman, then Jesus should be below John, which is not possible, because John itself telling that I am lesser than Jesus. That clearly indicates that Jesus is just not a prophet. Don't try to put a square of 1000m perimeter into a triangle of 2m. Okay. Please don't try to create your own picture about Bible and Jesus. One Humble request is you please read Bible or read the passages I am giving. Jaseem: David, Please Think yourself!!!. Mariyam/ Mary (Mother of Jesus) was also a WOMAN!. So as per John: Jesus is great; But as per Jesus: John is great!!. Thus Bible repeats contradictions!. David: We can see a Good Son in Jesus Christ, so that we can imitate that in our daily life. Even though he is equally powerful and he is the God, he is showing his politeness as a good Son by saying like this. Jaseem: Some of things are true here, and Muslims also believe in those. You told that Jesus was obedient to his father, which shows he was under control. But think, God is Almighty; He controls everything; and He should not be controlled by anyone else. This shows that Jesus is not a God. I believe that God never loses his power .. But the wrong sentence above is Even though he is equally powerful and he is the God. If equally powerful, if he obeys his father, his father also should obey him some times. Tell me if anywhere he commanded to father. Also if they are equal, then Jesus is son of God =>God is son of Jesus. If you are not obeying this relation then .. Believe that Jesus is not the God.

Also, you please tell me the meaning of son of God. (Normally a birth of son will occur a period of time after birth/ starting of Father. It implies there were some times or years before Jesus birth). So tell me how can he become a God? David: Sometimes you will ask Genuine questions also. Good. I told you that Jesus' role in this earth was as a Son of God. It is his duty to be the Son of God. And Bible clearly says that He is not just a human being and he has the divinity and he has came from the God. As a good Son, it is his duty to be submissive to the Father. We can see God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Earth, according to Bible. We have this idea related to this earth. But the Hierarchy, authority, Power, Nature, Date of Birth of Father, Son etc are unknown to the human beings according to the Bible. The Known thing is God the Father created the world with Jesus and Holy Spirit (Consider they as the two hands of God just to understand), Human beings committed sin, Son of God, Jesus Christ saved them and the Holy Spirit is giving us the correct way and path of the life. This three appearance of God to the Earth is available from the Bible. Also, Jesus told, believe in me, those who believe in me will have eternal life, I will forgive your sins (only God can forgive sins) and I will send you the messenger, the Holy spirit to you. Truly truly I am telling to the organization of Heaven is unknown to me and this world. Jaseem: Please try to give proper answers for my questions. Here what you explained is the limitations of Bible: because a book from God should first explain about God, His Power, Authority, Existence, etc. Also I believe that God is almighty, has all power and will, and exists everywhere. You please tell me (explicitly) who had forgiven the sin of Human? (God or Jesus). Also tell me if I pray to God for forgiveness, will he transfer all my sin to Himself and do self crucifixion?. As per my belief, if one commits sin, he only should get the reward for it. Also sin will not spread inherently. Thats Justice; and God is the best Justice. About Holy Spirit, we can discuss later thoroughly. Now you just tell me whether Holy Spirit was present at the time of Jesus, or came after Jesus.

12.

Isnt God Present Everywhere??

David: Please read this passage Mathew 3 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me? 15 Jesus replied, Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Here we can see that the Son of Man is baptized, the spirit came as a Dove and the Sound from Heaven is heard. That means, there is Son, There is Father, There is Holy Spirit. At the same time, I am David, the body, the soul, and self. If you are telling that God can't exist as the three at the same time, then you should explain, How God can be present everywhere in the world and Where is Heaven located. Jaseem: Dear David, Dont become mad!. Do you ever think about your questions before asking me?. I believe that God is almighty and present everywhere in the world (omnipresent); and has no shape; no limit in power; no tiredness in controlling the world .Has no eye or ear to represent; but can see, hear, and control everything in the world. (His presence in world is like ghee in a cup of milk; you cant see it). Now you tell me how one son, his father with a dove can present everywhere in the world??? (as per your thought). Also tell me who (Jesus, God or Holy Spirit) is present in our country and controlling us!?.

13.

Is Mathematics Wrong??

David: 37-And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38-Nor does his word dwells in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. "Here Jesus is telling that you have never heard his voice nor seen his form." What does that mean?? If Jaseem is telling to me that "You did not see the Holy Qur'an", what does that mean?? Jaseem saw the Holy Qur'an and me not. Correct?? Likewise Jesus already saw the almighty God. That's why he is telling you have never heard his voice nor seen his form. Jaseem: David, please think yourself and about your words. You are telling that Jesus and God are same; then how the above sentence becomes significant? But what Jesus had told was the correct; means he had seen real God (and people in front of Jesus were not seeing God; instead they were seeing only the Prophet). If you have the power to think, then you please think (not for me; but for yourself): If Jesus was God, then you have never heard his voice nor seen his form means you have never heard Jesus voice nor seen Jesus form. This is the reason that Christians are saying: Bible is full of secrets. But actually Bible clearly saying that God is almighty and He is One, and Jesus is only His son (ie, prophet) like Adam, Solomon, Ephraim, etc. You told that Jesus only had seen the Father. So it is clear that Jesus is not the Father. (Else we can say, Israel people also had seen the Father). So it shows they (Jesus and God) are different. Please tell me answer for below question. Can I tell "Jesus is the Father of God"? If answer is 'no', then remember A=B => B=A is now also a valid formula. David: I told you "n" times that Jesus is the Son of God. If Son is there means there should be the Father. That doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father of God if God is the Father of Jesus. Please come out of these literal meaning and think what is the meaning of the sentence. If David is the Son of Philip, means that David and Philip are different. It is human body. God is spirit. Why can't God take three appearance?? You misunderstood the sentence. What I am telling is, Jesus is the Son of God, at the same time he is God, as he has divine nature, and he is not just a human being or prophet. Jaseem: I hope I already given much replies. Once more you may refer my above answers.

And you please tell why God should take different appearances??. David: That (Jesus already saw the almighty God) means Jesus has some specialty than the human being and Angels. So Jesus is the Son of God, he himself is God, and the visible image of the God. Jaseem: This doesn't mean he is a God, since Adam and other prophets also had seen God. And all the prophets had done some miracles which a normal Human being couldn't do. David: Why I am telling that Jesus is the Son of God is, In Bible lots of evidences are available for the same. These are not my assumptions or findings. Since you didn't read Bible fully, you don't know that. Please don't tell whatever things you don't know are incorrect. Just tell, I don't know. Jaseem: I hope I already given much replies.

14.

The Chain of Contradictions!!

David: More explanations to Chapter 1 of John. John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is. The introduction of Johns gospel immediately introduces the major themes that John intends to discuss. Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these themes from the life and teaching of Jesus. The Word refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by verse 14,17. In the beginning must refer to the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1. That this is the meaning is confirmed in verse 3 showing that Jesus is the Creator. So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father. Note that the use of was shows that Jesus already was in existence when the Creation occurred. Major truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18: 1. Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began (1:1-3). Jaseem: If uncreated, then how can he become a son? David: That's God's decision. God can create Human beings from Stones. God created Adam from mud. Then why cant God send his power as his Son to this earth?? Jaseem: Please try to reply my question!. You are telling different versions of creations; all creations were done by applying or sending power. But my question is:If uncreated, then how can he become a son? (since [technically says] son is a product; not a producer!.) David: 2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created things 1:1). 3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18). Jaseem: It clearly means that; they (God and Jesus) are different; not the same. David: Yes you are correct. From the beginning itself I am also telling the same. Jesus is the Son of God, at the same time he has divine nature (Since you are confused about the word God, I am using Divine nature, that means Godly nature). Jaseem: I already asked how they become equal then?. ( .many times Bible said they are same). David:

4. Jesus is the Creator the active force through Whom all things were made (1:3,10). Jaseem: Earlier you told that, Jesus was there when God (Father) had created everything & I also believe that God had created everything. But now you are telling that Jesus (Gods son) had created everything. I am not saying much; you just think yourself. David: You have this confusion, since you can accept the Divine nature of Jesus Christ. I don't have the doubt since, I believe that Jesus is having Divine nature, so Jesus, Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same. So there is nothing wrong with that. Jaseem: Just above you agreed that Jesus and God are different; now again contradiction!... David: Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of Gods will (1:4,5,14,17,18). Jaseem: Here John 1:18(see bible) only says: He is very near to Father. So it is clear that he is not the Father/God; only one who is near to Him. David: What you are telling is about the role of Jesus in earth, then it is correct. As a good son (not like me) he was submissive. Those who are polite are glorifying the Father. Because, politeness is a divine nature. Jaseem: Same thing only I also had told. Jesus glorifies the one who is the God of mine, yours, his and all others. David: Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God and hope of eternal life (1:4). Jaseem: Here it is very clear that Jesus connecting men to God; means he is a prophet because this was the duty of every prophets. If Jesus is a God, then you will fail to explain the above sentence. David: You are failing to understand this is because you didn't understand who is Jesus Christ, why he came to earth, from where he came, and what was his role in this earth. If he came as the Son of God, he should show the Father to others. That doesn't mean that Jesus is just a prophet. Consider, Jaseem's Father is a Big entrepreneur with 5-6 workers in that firm. Sometimes he will send any of the workers to his customers. They are not ready to purchase that particular product. So one day your father sends you to sell that product to the Customers, since, you have more awareness about your fathers business, (if you are a good son) and can effectively talk to them about your products. That doesn't mean that you are also an employee of your Fathers Firm.

Jaseem: Also; that doesnt mean that I am same to my Father.

15.

Almighty vs Weak God!!

David: 7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10) Jaseem: You mean God had lost all his power by becoming as a man. But I (and all true believers since starting of world) believe that God is one, who never loses his Power. David: Who told that If God become man, then he will lose his power? Have you programmed or Hardwired God like that?? Is God a PIC or S12X or 8051 Micro controller to judge the operation?? God is almighty, he can do anything. We can't ask why he did like that. God don't want your permission to be a human being and be God at the same time. This is your false belief that God will lose his Power if he is taking the human nature. Since God is the creater of Man, He can do whatever he like. That is upto God. Jaseem: Then why Jesus told that I cant do anything?. Why he cried for help while crucifixion?. (Mathew-27:46-47). .and many more examples shows he was having no much power!. David: 8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11). 9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God (1:12). Jaseem: What does it mean.... thinking deeply, you can see that Jesus is not the God. Else the sentence, 'God is the One who can give people power to become children of God' becomes meaningless. David: You are again in that foolish argument. Jaseem is with Jaseem, A.K Antony is with A. K Antony. That sentence means Jesus has the authority that's all. Jaseem: I hope already given enough replies. David: The Word was with God in that Jesus was present in the beginning with the Father (see v3; Cf. 1 John 1:2) hence, He is a separate individual living Being from the Father. Jaseem: This means that Jesus is not God; he came from God; ie, he was created; but God is one, who has no starting or ending. David: Have you there in the earth when Jesus was created??

Dear Jaseem, that is unknown. The Bible says Jesus was with God before the creation. And also telling that He was God. That means, Jesus is not just a Prophet or Human Being. Again I am telling you , the Heavens hierarchy is UNKNOWN. Why can't the Only one God exist as three at the same time?? Why can't the Only one God can't exist as his own wishes?? Does he need our permission for that?? Jaseem: We are not discussing will of God; but simply discussing about Bible words!!!. Think about the irrelevance of your comments if you wish.. David: Another Example: John 28-29: After he saw proof of Jesus resurrection, Thomas addressed Jesus as my Lord and my God Clearly Thomas is here calling Jesus God. If Jesus did not possess Deity, Thomas statement would have been blasphemy, and Jesus should have rebuked Him. Instead, Jesus praised Thomas and pronounced a blessing on everyone who believes the same (verse29)! Jaseem: I searched in my Bible about this. But I found only the following sentences: John 1:28- These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. John 1:29- The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! So dont say anything before reading Bible at least once. Also I believe that God will not take the sin of anybody; instead He will give correct reward to everybody .. Means, if you do good things, you will get heaven; and if you do bad things, you will get hell. Thats all. (May God bless us and may give Heaven). David: Sorry; correct sentence is below: John 20:26-29 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! 27 Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe. 28 Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God! 29 Then Jesus told him, Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

David: But also He was God in that He Himself possessed Deity. To say there is one God is not necessarily to say there is only one individual being that possesses Deity. Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are one as all believers are to be one (John 17:20,21) not one individual, but one in purpose, goal, doctrine, etc. The term God refers to that which possesses all the characteristics of Deity and therefore deserves to be worshiped and honored as God. Jaseem: What is mean by God? I believe 'the One who make/ create all things; or the almighty; or who has full power'. Then the question is why needed a 2nd God as Jesus... It shows the God has some limitations and is taking help from a partner..... And if they both have same power; then why it is required? ....... It is simply a waste. (It is not like keeping a battery extra; since God never fails)..

16.

Is Elijah a God??

David: Here is the Gospel according to John, Chapter 3. Please go through it and read it carefully. I personally wish that you should read the bible chapters with me, instead of searching some verses just for an argument. In John, Chapter 2, two main things are their one is Jesus changes water into wine and another is Jesus clearing the Temple courts. Our discussion here is based on John, Chapter 3. John Chapter 3. 13. No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven. This indicates that Jesus was there in heaven and except Jesus, no one went to the Heaven, so that means Jesus is not just a normal being or prophet. Jaseem: Never; it means that Adam also is a God if Jesus is a God (If explanation required, you may ask me). And how it means Jesus is God?. Are you believing that except normal person and prophets everybody is God?. David: You did not answer to the exact question. This verse indicates that Jesus came from Heaven and has seen God. Then how can you equate Jesus with other prophets?? Jaseem: I am very sorry David; I thought you have the power to think on it yourself. Also I thought if I explain everything; that would become boring.... Anyhow... as per your request, I am explaining.. You know that the first Human in the world was Adam.... And you know Adam was there in the Heaven first time. And God had sent Adam also to the world/ earth. Now I hope you can think... (And as per above sentence, if Jesus is a God, we can tell Adam also is a God). If still unable to understand, you may ask me again. David: You are adding some of your imaginations, stories etc to the Biblical facts. Who told that Adam was created in Heaven and then God brought him into this world?? Please read Genesis, Chapter 1,2,3. I don't want to comment on the Muslim belief or what is there in the Qu'ran, since I know what is truth, so no need to refer in any other book than The Holy Bible. Also you are not at all reading the versus I am giving. Again and again you are repeating the same versus, which I have already explained. It is like you are trying to attack a person with AK47 using a knife. Jaseem:

Sorry, In Holy Qur'an it is mentioned like that. I thought Christian belief also is same... So I am leaving this topic. But let me remind you that, your words (like "I am true; nothing is there better than me") are not very good or healthy. My suggestion is to read Holy Qur'an and all other religious books and theories up to your limit. Dear friend, studying about others will never becomes waste; only 2 results it may give: 1. You may know that whichever you are following is the right. Hence you will become more happier. 2. You may know that you are not in the right path and the other way is true. Hence you can escape from the blind/ wrong way. I believe both the results are good only!!.. David: Seriously you did not understand the meaning of the sentence Jaseem. The meaning of the verse is NO ONE EXCEPT JESUS CAME FROM THE HEAVEN. Adam did not came from the heaven. I don't know from where you got this story. I think there is only one Bible. If you are reading any other Book, you may get a story like this. There is nothing like this in the Bible. Please read Genesis. God made Adam from the mud of Earth. He don't have any divine nature. He is not sharing the authority and divine nature like Jesus Christ. Jaseem: Sorry (for mistake); I already replied to this. Anyhow the sentence is not correct as per Bible itself. See and give me the meaning for following sentence: 2 Kings 2: 8-12
11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both assunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

So it means Elijah also had come from heaven. So....................!!

17.

Is God Cruel to His Son??

David: 16. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Here it is clearly mentioned that the one and only son of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus is saying that you believe in me, so that you can get the eternal life and you will be called as the Son of God. No other prophets ever told like that. So Jesus must be the God, the one and only son of God. Jaseem: It clearly means that God is very bad; else how he could give his son for the cruel and sinned people? A good father should always love his son more than all other people. But, you believe that even though Jesus was very obedient, his father punished him. Then tell me how his father can become a good father; without showing justice, how his father can become a good God? David: Consider you have a sister. Her house is attacked by some terrorists. Your sister and her family is about to die. At that time your father is asking you to go and save them. Imagine you went there are fought with the terrorists and saved your sister's family. Unfortunately you have been died in that fight. Does that mean your Father is a cruel Father? Does that mean as a punishment you went there? Please don't judge with some foolish human laws. Love, care, affection etc are above that. The meaning of this sentence is God loved the world that much. So God sent his beloved son to save the world. You can consider God as your Father, Jesus as you, the world as Your sisters family and the terrorists as the Devil. I think now the concept is more clear. Jaseem, God is not a logical Gate to give the outputs according to the inputs. Please change your mindset about God. God is a personality, he is a self. He can take decisions according to the situation. Even though you are a sinner, God can forgive your sin, if he wish. That is upto Him not to you. You are trying to nail God into some of your definitions. Jaseem: What is this David; why are you comparing God with my Father???. David: We can compare God with a Good Father. Jesus also done that many times. I think your Father is a good person. That's why I compared like that. It is just for understanding the fact. Just for simplicity. Take in that way. Jaseem: You and I know my Father is just a Human being; but God is not like him. God knows everything

present, past and future. So He will not send His son to become dying intentionally. And what you had said, is not matching the Christians' belief. The Christians' belief is, if Jesus were not crucified, the People will not be saved. Even my Father will not do or even think about such deeds if he loves me. Unfortunately, you believe that the real (Justice) God had done it!!!.. David: Here you didn't understand the fact about human creation. God gave will power to the human beings in the creation. Consider, if you are programming a Robot. Now you can predict all the future, past and present. If you are considering a humanoid Robot with all the intelligence, then you can't predict the future, since it has it's own will. So God never ever thought that the people will sin in their life. Or else you should agree that all this bad thoughts and sinful nature is given by God. It is not. It is our decision. I don't know about you and your Father and you. If me and my father was in that situation, I will go without my father's order as she is my sister. I thought it is like that for you also. Sorry for the mistake. Jaseem: I can't control the Humanoid Robot beyond an extend; and I can't predict what the Robot will do if it has its own intelligence. These are because I am a Human; not the Almighty. But I believe God is not like that; we can never escape from His control..... And He is able to predict our each situations and positions in the Future also. And what you told (never ever thought that the people will Sin in their life) is wrong. The reality is: God had shown all the people 2 clear paths; 1 right & 1 wrong. And everybody is having the option to take any of them But nothing will go beyond the control of God .. Otherwise the word God itself become meaningless. Jaseem: One basic thing is, my Father will not send me unless he loves my sister as me. Now you can say whether God loves us in the same manner as He loves Jesus??. David: Why doubt in that Jaseem?? Human beings are the creation of God. He loves the Human beings a lot as a Good Father. The Jesus, the Father and the Holy spirit are the tri existence of the creator God. So Jesus is trying to save the people means, God is trying to save the people. There is no punishment like that. Like your sister is important for you and your father at the same time. So if your father is asking to go and help them means, it is your duty as she is your sister also. There is no punishment nothing in that. It is just because of Love. There is no need of your Father's order also. It is your duty to go and help them without that. Jaseem: You agreed that God loves us in the same manner as He loves Jesus. But a good Father should not love the sinned people like their pure children!!.. Once I told that God knows everything including Future. So if He had given His son intentionally

for crucifixion, it means God loved the sinned people in the world than His pure son!. Think.. Jaseem: But the Belief of Muslims is the right. ie, God had sent the Prophet Jesus to save the Humankind by showing them right path; not to transfer the people's sin to him. And Jesus had done his duty very neatly. Unfortunately, as other Prophets suffered, Jesus also suffered a lot from the cruel people/ enemies..... But his work would be completed even without the crucifixion attempt. David: Seriously I don't care about what others believe. There is no need for that as I got the truth via the Holy Bible. Again and again, I am telling you, you can't prove your arguments using Bible. I request you to read bible thoroughly. Please Jaseeem, please. In Bible itself Abraham gave his son Issac as an offering to the God. Issac was the only Son of Abraham. That doesn't mean that Abraham is a cruel person. Jaseem: You have mistaken; Abraham gave his son since God had told to do it. It means Abraham loved and obeyed God more than his own son.... Don't say the things that you don't know. David: You have already mistaken, God loved the world so much, so only he gave his Son to the world. As Abraham loved the God, God loved the world. Please don't interpret what you didn't understand. Jaseem: I already told that "Abraham gave his son since Abraham was loving and obeying God more than his own son...." So if you are correct, it (what you had told) means: "God loved the sinned people in the world than His pure son!." Think about this purity of Love and your comments......!! David: 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on them. Jaseem: Above I explained about the real love. And this sentence doesnt mean that Jesus is a God. David: Father loved the Son and placed everything in his hands. Nowhere in Bible we can see that God gave all his power to a human being. I don't think so, that God will give all his power to a human being or Prophet. Even though they are prophet, they faced many of the situations without God's Help. However Jesus' actions were with authority of a Son not a prophet. Do you think that God will give the right to believe in a Human being, so that the people in the

world will get Eternal Life ?? That will become worshiping a Human being and it is against God's Laws. So we should say that Jesus is the son of God, and more than a prophet. Jaseem: God didnt give all his power to Jesus; else why should he cry when taken for crucifixion?, why should he say he could do nothing?..... Like other prophets, Jesus also had faced many problems .like crucifixion. You try to study how the people before arrival of Jesus get Eternal life you. there is the answer for

David: You are telling like this because you don't know about the deity nature of Jesus Christ. He lived as a Human Being in this world. So he had all the emotions like a normal being. But he didn't do sin. In crucifixion, what we are seeing is the pain given to the human body of Jesus Christ. That's why he cried. That moment was already known to the Father and the Son. At that time, the Father was in an aggressive silence. Jaseem: Here you told that 'Jesus lived as a Human Being in this world'. You clearly tell me whether Jesus showed only Human nature?. And my question is 'why Father was in silence?'. If He loved his child, He should rescue His child in that situation........ since He is Almighty. (If my father is having power to rescue me, he will certainly do it in all critical situations......)

18.

Aim of Arrival of Jesus?

Jaseem: So the clean and clear way is here:- actually, God had sent Jesus not to take the sin of people; but to show them right path . Jesus had done what God had told him to do .. But, unfortunately some of people in his place (Israel) tried to crucify him. This was not planned by his God; but planned by some cruel people in his place. By believing so, you can also believe that God loves all mankind including Jesus (even though he and we are suffering in this life, God will give us better life hereafter) and so God is a good Justice. Every prophet had told the same to their people that if you believe in me and God, you can escape from the Hell. (What Jesus had told is also the same since you yourself told me that we cant become the real sons of God). All things simply mean that son of God is only a technical term. David: I was laughing after reading your comments like this. From where you got these kind of foolish stories? Please tell me if you got any dream from God about these kind of things. I know I am nothing in front of God. So I wont my own words. I am talking everything in Biblical contexts, I believe that came from the God. These type of comments shows that you didn't even read Mathew, Mark, Luke and John of the Bible. Otherwise you couldn't have use these kind of comments. Jaseem: You may laugh; that's your rights in this life. But more important in our discussion, is to give the proper comments/ replies. Our (Muslims) belief is based on Holy Qur'an. And we are seeing the same messages in Bible also. My comments are given just above. (ie, the Christians believe that, if Jesus were not crucified, the People will not be saved. Even my Father will not do such deeds if he loves me). If you can, try to reply to that. David: I told the answer already. You are thinking that everything was over by the Crucifixion. The fact that you didn't understand that it was the beginning and not the end. it is like your father is sending to play a game, in which you loose his shirt at the final for some time, but you will get 1 million dolor rupees as the prize money. It was just the beginning not the end. Jaseem: What I told is; God can/ will forgive anybody even without shedding his blood (since God looks towards our Hearts). But unfortunately Christians' belief is; if the crucifixion was not there, nobody would escape from sin!!. David:

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Jaseem: It means he was a prophet; all the prophets were sent to save the world by showing them right path. David: Please answer me, why they didn't use the word "God did not send the Prophet Jesus Christ into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him Jaseem: Since 'God's son' is the technical word in Bible instead of 'Prophet'. David: Then why they didn't use the word, God's Son for the prophet John who was present at the same time of Jesus?? Jaseem: This question you should ask to Christian teachers.... (If not technical, then tell me who were Adam, Ephraim, Solomon & Daveed). David: 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son. So it is our duty to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Jaseem: Yes correct, we should believe that Jesus was a son of God like Adam, Solomon, etc. And we should believe that He, who had sent Jesus to us, is the real God. David: Can you show me any versus from Bible saying that God gave the authority to believe in any of the prophets like Solomon, Abraham, Adam etc??? But God has given the authority to believe in Jesus Christ, his one and only son. I think you know English better that me. Jaseem, what is the meaning of the sentence Gods one and only Son?? In Kozhikode, if one and only if means many?? In thiruvalla, One and only means unique. I think you people are using different dictionaries. Isn't it?? Jaseem: David, don't become emotional!!.. Bible came at the time of Jesus; so it says to believe in Jesus as a Prophet. Thora (Old testaments) came at the time of Moses. Similarly all other Prophets was having some testaments/ laws with them from their God. In those, main teaching was to believe in the almighty and to believe in those Prophets. And 'one and only one' is a literature usage in Bible But

David: You failed to answer this. Please don't use Technical term, Literature term etc. to the things that you cannot explain or prove. Jesus itself claimed it and God told that He is my Son. Also, the birth of Jesus Christ prove the same. Still I didn't discuss about the birth of Jesus Christ. Do you know how Jesus was born?? Jaseem: Okey, I will agree this; but before that you should answer for a simple question: What is the meaning of 'first born' in your dictionary.... and tell me the meaning for the following Bible sentence: They shall come with weeping; and with petitions will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (Jeremiah:31:9) Now tell me who was first son of God? And who was first Human in the world? And who was Ephraim? Jaseem: .But . I think more proper answer for you is below: "Christians believe that God has only one son; Jesus. But, Bible is telling Adam, Ephraim, Solomon, etc were sons of God. Christians believe that Adam is the first Human and Prophet. But, Bible is telling Ephraim is God's first son. Christians believe that God is three. But, Bible is telling God is one..................... So if Bible said 'one and only one son', it may mean 'three and only three sons'. So the only confusion is who are the remaining sons!!!!". David: These are some of your arguments to prove that Christians are wrong and you are right. These things are not at all related to our discussion. If you don't understand something doesn't mean that that is wrong. Say I can't understand. Christians won't tell, there is 3 God. That is your interpretation. There is no Christians, there is no Muslims Jaseem, all are some travelers to the heaven and they are trying to know the fact before reaching there. That's all. All your belief about Christians are wrong. Please leave the others. Please discuss with me. You cannot escape by blaming the Christians. The truth is the matter. Please read Bible, then you will get the exact meaning of Messiah. Jaseem: Bible clearly told many times that Jesus and God are not the same; instead, they are different. Now you please tell me how many Gods are there as per Bible and thus you will understand the meaning of my (above) comments.

19.

Is John Greater than Jesus??

David: 28 You yourselves can testify that I said, I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him. 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegrooms voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less. Here John, the prophet is telling that Jesus is the Messiah. Jaseem: But; John is not telling that Jesus is a God. He only says that Jesus is greater than him. Do you believe everybody above John is God? David: Do you know the meaning of the word "Messiah" in Biblical context?? Please find out the meaning for that (Search in internet, you will get). Then read it again. Then you will understand it clearly. If Jesus was also a prophet like John the prophet, why should he say like that?? Jaseem: I searched about it; Never I found the meaning as God!!. David: If you are telling that John is just saying Jesus is above him, then we must accept that Jesus is the son of God, not a human being or a prophet, because, what Jesus told about John is that, John is the "greatest person ever born" in the earth from Women. Consider a set U to which X and Y belongs. And another set exists V. Here X=Jesus and Y=John and U = World and V= Heaven. If X>Y, in U, then there is no condition exist as Y>X in U, since X and Y are unique. So by contradiction rule of mathematics, only one equation exists, which is X>Y. However, we can tell that {Y> all the other elements in U} , if and only if X is outside the set U. Since there are only two sets exists U and V, we will conclude that X is from the set Y and it is from the set V, which is outside the set U. Hence both the equations are satisfied. John told Jesus is above Him. {X>Y} Jesus told John is the greatest person ever born in the earth from women. {Y> all the other elements in U} In order to satisfy the above equations, X (Jesus) should be from outside the set U (World). Since John is a man from the world and prophet, Jesus must be from outside world, the Heaven (V) and should not be a prophet. ie, Jesus is from Heaven and he is the only begotten son of the God. Hence the proof. Mathew 11:11 (Equation 2): Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; John 3:28-30 (Equation 1): I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him .30 He must

become greater; I must become less. Jaseem: David, Please Think yourself!!!. Mariyam/Mary (Mother of Jesus) was also a WOMAN!!. So as per John: Jesus is great; But as per Jesus: John is great!!. Thus Bible repeats contradictions!.

20.

Had God Mistaken??

David: Dear Jaseem, Please read the below passage. Jesus told this parable to prove "who is He?" 33 Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. 35 The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. They will respect my son, he said. 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, This is the heir. Come, lets kill him and take his inheritance. 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants? 41 He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, they replied, and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time. 42 Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes? 43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed. This passage by Jesus indicates that Jesus is not a prophet and He is the Only Son of God. Because, the tenants are the people in the world and the servants are the prophets and the Son is Jesus. Now, at least for God sake you please stop saying that Jesus is a Prophet. According to your teachings they may be said like that. They have other intentions behind that. But truly I tell you that, you can't prove that Jesus is Just a prophet using the Holy Bible. Jaseem: Here 2 conflicts are there!. 1) Nothing will happen in the world without Gods will/ permission. And God is one who knows Future very well. But as per Bible God, had mistaken . 2) Christianity teaches that God had sent Jesus to take the sin of Human and to be crucified. But in above sentence He says He sent Jesus to be respected by Human. Think yourself!... I am only trying to share with you what I know and my thoughts. You can accept or reject!..

21.

Does Bible Say Jesus is a Prophet??

David: Dear Jaseem, Here is Chapter 4 and 5. Please go through the chapters. Chapter 4 25 The woman said, I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. 26 Then Jesus declared, I, the one speaking to youI am he. Here Jesus is explaining that I am the Messiah. According to the old testament, Messiah will come from the God to save the earth from Sin and he is the one and only Son of the almighty God. If Jesus = Messiah, and Messiah = God, then Jesus = God. Jaseem: Here some mistakes are there in your equations. Corrected is given below. If Jesus = Messiah, And Messiah = Gods son, Then Jesus = Gods son; (not God). It implies that Jesus is a prophet like Adam, Ephraim, Solomon, etc. (Since Old Testament says all of them are sons of God) Earlier you told me that son of God in Old Testament means Prophet of God. Then what is the meaning of below sentence? the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke-3:38) As per your belief, it means Adam is prophet of God, Seth is prophet of Adam, Enos is prophet of Seth, .. Simultaneously consider the following Also: They shall come with weeping; and with petitions will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (Jeremiah:31:9) As per your belief, it means Ephraim is the first prophet. Then please tell me who was the first human; Adam or Ephraim (You and I know that they both were prophets) David: Jaseem, you should not have enough background in the Holy Bible. Then too you are trying to prove that Jesus is not the Son of God using Bible, a Book, which is written to prove that Jesus is the Son of God. My Humble request is that you please study Bible with an Open Mind. I won't tell that you should read the whole Bible. At least you please read Mathew, Mark, Luke and John fully with an Open Mind. Then you will not have any doubt on this. You are correct, that others also possessing the Name Son in Bible. But that is entirely different from Jesus' son-ship.

It is like you and an adopted child for your father. Both can carry the name Son. But the meaning is entirely different. Jaseem: God never had adopted anyone as child!.. (If yes, you can prove it). You can give different meanings for the same word as you like; but our discussion is on Gods words. Also try to give proper answer. I again ask you to give me the meaning of following Bible sentence: the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke-3:38)

David: I am trying to explain this concept a little detail. The specialties of Jesus' son-ship are: 1. Jesus is more than one of God's chosen people, more than one of His heavenly messengers, more than one who rules on God's behalf on earth, more than one who pleases God, although He is all of those also. 2. Jesus does not become the Son of God, but the Son of God becomes Jesus. Thus Jesus, as the Son, speaks to the Father about "the glory I had with You before the world began". This is the first and most important thing, you should understand. Others were normal human beings and at a particular situation, they became the Son of God due to the relationship with the God. In the case of Jesus, the Son of God became Jesus Christ not vice versa. 3. This eternal Son of God entered into the limitations of time and space by the power of God working through the virgin Mary and was born as a man, called Jesus, in Bethlehem some nineteen centuries ago. His Birth itself is a proof for his purpose. The purpose was the Son of God should come to the Earth. 4. Similarly, Jesus is not the Son of God because of His mighty works and wonderful words. On the contrary, He does His mighty works and speaks His wonderful words because He is the Son of God. This is another important fact. Jesus became the Son of God because of his powerful authorized words; he had that thoughts and authority, because he was the son of God. 5. His works witness to His Son-ship. A "son" must be obedient to his "father", doing his will and works, being like him (John 8:37-47). 6. Jesus Himself pointed to His works as evidence of the fact that He is the Son of God: "If I am not acting as my Father would, do not believe me. But if I am, accept the evidence of my deeds, even if you do not believe me, so that you may recognize and know that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:37f.). Jesus did the works of God, His Father, acting as God would. 7. He was called the Son of God by the Father Himself and by others:

a. The Annunciation: The angel Gabriel told the virgin Mary that her son would be called "the Son of God". (Luke 1:32,35) b. The Baptism: God's voice from heaven proclaimed: This is my Son, whom I love." (Matthew 3:17, etc.) c. The Transfiguration: God's voice once again proclaimed: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him." (Mark 9:7, etc.) d. The Crucifixion: The Roman centurion and his men confessed at the time of Jesus' crucifixion: "Surely he was the Son of God!" (Matthew 27:54) e. The Resurrection: St. Paul writes that Jesus' resurrection from the dead declared Him to be "the Son of God". (Romans 1 :4) f. Mad men and even unclean spirits confessed to Jesus: "You are the Son of God." (Mark 3:11; cf. 5:7; Matthew 8:29; Luke 4:41; 8:28) . g. Jesus' disciples also confessed that He is "the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16; cf. 14:33). h. Jesus, as a true Son, preferred to give glory to His Father, but He too would not deny His Son-ship (Matthew 26:63f.; Mark 14:62; John 10:36). i. Even Satan (Why can't you Jaseem? :)): When Jesus was famished after a long fast, the tempter said to Him: "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread" (Matthew 4:3, etc.). j. When Jesus was in agony on the cross, the passersby mocked Him and said: "Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!" (Matthew 27:40). 8. He is not the son of some earthly king, who must show his might and save his pride by appearing to be victorious in the eyes of the world, according to the world's standards. 9. It was just because He is the Son of the God of love that He would not use His power for selfish purposes but perfectly fulfilled the will of His Father, who chose to reveal Himself and His love to all men through His suffering Son. Even a casual reading of the verses cited above would show that the use of the term "Son of God" with reference to Jesus is different in both quality and extent from the other uses mentioned previously(About prophets and Kings). Thus the son of God to Jesus and others are used in different contexts. Jaseem: Here most of the sentences are not Bible words; instead you have written in your own language. However some are from Bible. But I feel most of them we had discussed already. You again repeated all of your comments as a whole. I am not repeating those had already discussed; instead I request you to refer my old comments. Even though, here you please read your own note no. 5: Here Bible says Jesus was doing his Fathers (Gods) wills; not his own. It gives us 2 themes: 1) Since God is one who has power to will and does his own wills, and Jesus never did his own will, Jesus cant be a God. 2) Since God is one who is not under control of anyone or anything, Jesus cant be a God. David: The Differences between Jesus and Others were: Others were graciously chosen by God as His adopted sons;

However, the Son is in the Father eternally. Others obeyed the Father, though imperfectly; Jesus the Son obeyed Him perfectly, without sin (Hebrews 4:15) . Sons should be like their father, but only Jesus was perfect like Him in His goodness, giving Himself completely for Him and His people. The Father has entrusted all judgment to the Son alone, "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:22,23). Only the Son gives life as the Father gives life (John 5:21). For was the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself" (John 5:26). The Son is obedient to the Father, with the will of the Father becoming concertized in the way of the Son; but the Father also listens and gives heed to the Son (John 11:41-44). By believing in Jesus the Son of God, we can have eternal life. By believing in others we can't have the eternal life. Jesus, the Son of God can forgive our sins. Only God can forgive our sins I believe. Others cannot forgive our sins. Thus there is a sharing of power, authority, knowledge, glory, and kingship which indicates a relationship of equality and mutuality between the Two who are One. I was referring to the relationship of Jesus Christ with God, the father. A normal human being or a prophet can't share the authority and power of God. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." (Matthew 11 :27) Angels, persons and things can reveal to us something about God. But God alone can reveal God! It takes God to reveal Himself to mankind. It takes God to reveal Himself to mankind under created circumstances congenial to human understanding. What better way for the eternal revealer to be revealed to mankind on earth than by clothing His self-expression in human flesh! In Jesus, His eternal Son, the revealer becomes also the revealed for us. This is why the Holy Bible speaks of Jesus as God manifested in the flesh. In turn, the revealed Son becomes the revealer of the Father among mankind. "Trust in God; trust also in me," says Jesus (John 14:1). God indeed is greater. To Him alone belong the kingdom, the power, and the glory. He alone is sovereign. According to the Bible, God is love. In Biblical perspective, by entering into this world, God does not demean Himself; rather He exalts Himself. By His visitation on earth, He does not cloud His glory; rather, He magnifies it among mankind. By His presence among us, He does not become the lesser; rather, He becomes the greater for our greater praise. By being not only above us but with us in Jesus Immanuel, He not only acts in conformity with Himself; even more, He is being Himself and He is being what He will be. Consider, you have relative, he and his family is so poor and they had made some bad name for the entire family. No one from your family will not go to that family. But one day you are visiting their home and giving some kind of solutions to their family. Assume, your father gave this work to you.

By doing this, what will be your father's and your image in that family?? It will increase or decrease? Will they love you more? Thus we can conclude like this: 1. The unique Son of God is of the Father eternally; by Him God created and sustains the universe. As God's self-expression He is truly God. 2. Because God loved us, the unique Son of God entered time and space, was born of the Virgin Mary and was called Jesus the Messiah. As God's self-expression on earth in the form of man He is also truly human. 3. The Son shares the attributes of the Father; He is like Him in powerful works and loving selfgiving. 4. The Son has been sent by/from the Father as His representative to carry out His work of revelation and salvation. 5. The Son is the Father's personal message, God expressing Himself and His love in a way that can be seen and heard and comprehended by humanity. 6. The Son serves the Father perfectly; the Father is also responsive to the will of the Son. Jaseem: Here also, some of the sentences are not Bible words; instead you have written in your own language. However some are from Bible. But I feel most of them we had discussed already. You again repeated all of your comments as a whole. I am not repeating those had already discussed; instead I request you to refer my old comments. But I am taking only one sentence (from your comments) which itself is enough to nullify the power of all your (other) comments to prove Jesus as a God. You can read the sentence John 14:1 ("Trust in God; trust also in me" says Jesus) again and again up to when you get the clear meaning. Here please note, Jesus had said God; not Father. So the sentence trust also in me has the clear meaning that Jesus is someone else other than God. Else tell me why should he say like this?; ie, why should explicitly mention about him besides the word, God??. (I hope my replies are clear for you. What I meant is: if Jesus also was a God or Gods part; then he should use the sentence, Trust in Father; trust also in me" instead of saying Trust in God; trust also in me"). Dear David, Mistakes may come in our faiths and thoughts; but the power is in correcting those!...

22.

Welcomes New Discussions!!

Jaseem: We can start discussions on 2 more areas of topics. 1) I heard about Nicaea council & Constant Nopple synod which had happened a couple of centuries after Jesus (period). In Nicaea council, one new creed came which was God is One but Two. In Constant Nopple synod, one more new creed came which was God is One but Three. So before that, Christians were believing only in 1 God; ie Father!!. Also I believe that the people in the beginning (at the time of Jesus) would be best believers. Unfortunately, the arguments of todays Christians mean all of them (at the beginning) will be in Hell (since they didnt believe in Trinity)!!. 2) If God is almighty and have all power and will, then what is the significance of a 2nd God?. Or whether you believe that Father is not the God; instead only a part of God? (Keep in mind that you, using Bible words told that Jesus and God/ Father are different).

23.

Are Normal Believers Greater than Jesus??

Chapter 5 David: 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working. 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. The Jewish leaders understood that Jesus is telling that he is the Son of God and he is making himself equal to God as he is the Son of God. Then why you did not understand that Jesus is telling that he is the Son of God??? Jaseem: Here is the reason: When Jesus was taken for crucifixion he cried: About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani? That is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Some of them who stood there, when they heard it, said, This man is calling Elijah.- Matthew-27:46-47 What does this mean David? Here Jesus is calling my God, my God not even my father... It clearly means that somebody is there above Jesus, who is God. If they both are having same power and position, then how One can become Others God? David, you may think if you want to escape from False and Falling Hell.

David: 24 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. Here Jesus is explaining his relationship with his father. See how casually he is telling about the almighty God. We can see in Bible that no other prophets ever used such kind of words and never tell that I am the Son of God and he is my father. Jesus is telling because he has the authority since he is the God, the Son of the God, the Word. Jaseem: Every prophet had told the same to believe not only in God (Father) but also in them (prophets). I believe that similar to Bible with Jesus, some testaments were there with earlier prophets and these things might be there. David: 19 Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the

Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Here Jesus is telling that the people should honor him as we are honoring the Father( God). That is not Jesus wish but God's (Father's) Wish. So that God gave all the judgment to the Son, Jesus Christ. God has never given any power and authority to the Human beings, so that they will get equal honor as God. Actually God created Human beings just below the Angels. So the order of honor is like this. God>Angels>Human Beings. So if God is giving equal honor to Jesus Christ with God, then where is Jesus' position??? That means, Jesus is the Son of God, in fact the almighty God, the eternal Son of God. Jaseem: Here some of things are already replied that Jesus is not the God since he had no power himself. Always he wanted help from God (father) for doing anything. Then how can he become a God? The sentence, Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son is against your earlier argument and against Bible because of following sentence: For God didnt send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.- John 3:17 As per your above quote, Jesus could not do anything except what Father had done. But if you strongly believe in Bible, you should believe that above Father and Son, the believers can do!. See below: Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.- John 14: 12 Now tell me who is/are the God/Gods? Whether Father, Son or the normal believers? Thats why I am telling Bible has much conflicts and contradictions; and this same is the reason (for) you are telling Bible is full of secrets!!!. David: 36. I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finishthe very works that I am doingtestify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 43 I have come in my Fathers name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. Jaseem: Here some of things are already replied. I dont believe that all prophets are having the same position or level. So Jesus may be in higher position than John; but it doesnt mean that he is a God. And please listen to above Jesus words carefully.

Whenever Jesus says about Father, he says He. He never says I or me. It shows Father is not the son, means they (Jesus and God) are different!!. David: Your argument is that Jesus is a prophet. You know that John, the baptist is a prophet. If Jesus was also a prophet, he will not tell like that I have testimony weightier than that of John. Jesus is telling that you people are testifying John the baptist, as you have seen him but my Father God himself is testifying me. That means. me and John the baptist are different. John the baptist is just a Prophet and I am the Son of the Almighty God. Jaseem: I already replied to this. Up to now all what I have discussed means Jesus was a Prophet. And I believe that all the prophets were testifying by God.

24.

Dont Shut Up Your Mind in front of Truth!!

Jaseem: Also you can refer the following portions in Bible which shows God is only One and Jesus was not the God. Old testaments Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one- Deuteronomy 6:4

Dont we all have one father? Hasnt one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, profaning the covenant of our fathers? Malachi 2:10

43:10You are my witnesses, says Yahweh, With my servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after me. 43:11I myself am Yahweh; and besides me there is no savior.Isaiah 43:10-11

This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.- Isaiah 44:6

Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Havent I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; There is no one besides me.- Isaiah 45:21 New testaments 12:29 Jesus answered, The greatest is, Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one: 12:30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. 12:31 The second is like this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. 12:32 The scribe said to him, Truly, teacher, you have said well that he is one, and there is none other but he,.- Markkose:12:29-32 Here Jesus himself is telling about a God which is common to him and to us. Also, the scribe used the word He to represent God. So this explicitly means Jesus is not a God.

17:1Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you; 17:2even as you gave him authority over all flesh; he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 17:3This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ. - John17:1-3 Here the word used to represent God is you; but the word used to represent Jesus is him.

Also, you may go through the entire sentences again and again and tell whether it gives evidence for you or me!.

19:16Behold, one came to him and said, Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 19:17He said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.- Matthew-19:16-17

27:45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. 27:46About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani? That is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 27:47Some of them who stood there, when they heard it, said, This man is calling Elijah.- Matthew -27:45-46

25.

Dont Stop Receiving Blessings from God!!

Jaseem: I believe that man can do nothing on God. Means God can control Humans, but reverse is not possible. But you and I know that people had tried to crucify Jesus; so Jesus is not a God. But I dont believe that Jesus is a normal person, instead I believe that he was a good prophet. And he had born without Father; but Adam had born without Father and Mother. So it doesnt mean that they are Gods. According to Bible, one more prophet will come to the earth after Jesus. The following sentences clearly saying this truth: 14:16. I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,14:17. The Spirit of truth, whom the world cant receive; for it doesnt see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you. John 14: 16-17

16:12. I have yet many things to tell you, but you cant bear them now. 16:13. However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 16:14. He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine, and will declare it to you. 16:15. All things whatever the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine, and will declare it to you. John 16: 12-15 This prophet/ counselor is not the Holy spirit since Bible is telling He will come after Jesus; but Holy spirit was there at the time of Jesus. See below: 1:32. John testified, saying, I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him. 1:33. I didnt recognize him, but he who sent me to baptize in water, he said to me, On whomever you will see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. 1:34. I have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God. John 1: 32-34 So think who is that prophet!. That prophet is Prophet Muhammad. He never said that Jesus path was wrong; instead He always said: O Christians and Jews, I came to you not to reject your path ie, Bible; instead only to refresh and correct you. O David, You will not be asked about my deeds; and I will not be asked about your deeds. So think . and believe the best before ending our time/ life. May God Bless Us!!!!.

26. Appearance and Disappearance of God!!

David: Dear Jaseem, I didn't get time to go through all your answers in this mail. One thing I can tell you is that there is nothing mentioned about Mohamed in the Holy Bible. It is utter foolishness that interpreting the another counselor, the Holy spirit is not the Holy spirit but the prophet Mohamed. This is the utter foolishness I have ever seen from my Muslim friends. By this statement, you people are draining the whole strength of your arguments. It is clear from this, that you people didn't even read a single Gospel fully. Consider your Grand Grand Father is appointing an Advocate after the year 2011 to be present with you for all your legal business issues, ie personal advocate. But if he come to your home in 2010 and 2009 for some other purposes doesn't mean that, that advocate is not the one your Grand Grand Father appointed. Correct na?? Holy spirit came to the earth many times for special purposes of the God. However, only after the resurrection of Jesus he came to the earth permanently. Hence, the counselor here is Holy spirit. No doubt in that. I will give references tomorrow.

Jaseem: As per your description, Spirit of God (since you believe Holy Spirit means spiritual existence of God) was not permanently present in the world up to the period of Jesus . Do you know the meaning of your comments?. It means God was not permanently present in the world up to the period of Jesus. Think .!.

David: You didn't understand what I said. So you please think first what I am saying.

Why you are asking me to think again and again??? Holy Spirit was not present permanently as an advocate and counselor till the time of Jesus. That's what I said. Holy Spirit was in the Heaven till that time. He appeared on the earth with special purposes.

27. Are God and Prophet Same!?

Jaseem: I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.- Deuteronomy 18:18 Tell me about this prophet!! Whether Holy Spirit is like Moses? Whether Holy Spirit is a human? Whether Holy Spirit is from their brothers? Whether Holy Spirit is a prophet? tell tell ..............tell..

David: Holy Spirit is like a spirit. That's why the name Holy Spirit. It is the spiritual existence of the God. He is not an Angel. He is the God's soul always present in the world. I can feel his presence in my fingers, while typing this to you. I know this is not coming from my knowledge, rather it is given by the God through Holy Spirit. I don't think so you can understand this concept, as it is tough for you to understand who is Jesus Christ. May the holy spirit work on your mind.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.- Deuteronomy 18:18

It is not about Prophet Mohammed. No doubt in that. It is about Jesus Christ. He was a prophet also. I don't know from where you are getting these kind of wrong teachings. Anyway one thing is sure. The person didn't read Bible and don't know anything from Bible. It is like Blinds went to see the Elephant.

Jaseem: In Deuteronomy 18:18, it is mentioned that the new Prophet will do all those what God command him. So if it is Jesus, then it again proves that Jesus is not a God; since God should never be commanded. You told me many times that Jesus is not a Prophet. Thats why I asked the above question; but now you yourself are telling Jesus was a Prophet also. You also believe that Prophet is a Human and has many limitations. One thing you should remind is: Gods position is higher than position of Prophet; but we can never call God as a Prophet. Think yourself . Also, in Deuteronomy 18:18, it is mentioned that the new Prophet will be like Moses; but you told me Jesus is not like any other Prophets

David: When God took the Human flesh and became Jesus, we called him son of Man many times. That is we have accepted his human nature. So there is nothing wrong in considering him as a Prophet also. The truth is He was the God took the human flesh.

Jaseem: For the last few months I was trying to prove that Jesus was a Prophet. At last you yourself proved it successfully. Thanks! .

28. Application-Limited Holy Spirit!!

David: Jaseem, Your confusion is due to the partial reading of the Bible. Please try to read Bible. Again and Again I am requesting you. Please read the below portions and see who is that Helper. That is the HOLY SPIRIT. John 14 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Jaseem: Here Bible said the new helper will teach us all the things. I believe teach means tell the new (for listener) things/ knowledge. Now tell me whether the invisible spirit teaches anyone?.

David: Invisible spirit of God can teach us. Again and again you are limiting the Power of God yaar. The Holy Spirit has taught many things many times to me. I have personal experience. It is your wrong concept that in order to teach somethings, there should be some physical existence. There is nothing like that. As we are studying with our spirit, the Holy spirit can easily convey with us.

I told you many times that the Holy Spirit and Jesus were on the Earth with special purposes and orders from the God. They are representing another existences of God on the Earth. Hence, there is Father in the Heaven to command and to give proper Guidance to them. Spirit of God is different from the Father God like Son of God. However, the God is one which is the union of the Father, Son and the Spirit.

Without any doubt I can tell that there is nothing mentioned about Prophet Mohammed in the Holy Bible and all are interpretations from some of the Muslim teachers. There is no relevance or reference for that teaching.

Jaseem: You told me that 'Holy Spirit' is spiritual existence of God..... But if that 'spirit' is present only for some special purposes, what does it mean? I believe the 'Spirit of God' was there in earth all the times..

David: Oh My God!!!! How I make Jaseem Understand??? Jaseem, Jesus got the name and existence, when he came from the Heaven to the Earth in the Human flesh. Likewise Holy Spirit got that name only after he came from the Heaven as an Advocate and Helper. These are the special existences of the God, with respect to the earth. God is everywhere in the universe with his presence. Holy Spirit and Jesus are the special existences of God appeared on the Earth with special purposes. That is what we can get after reading the Bible.

You consider an artist. His creation will be in the Canvas and he will be there behind the Canvas. Likewise Earth is God's Canvas. God is there behind the canvas. But when his hands are moving towards the canvas, to paint something, that is for special purpose. It is just for an analogy. Since a picture is immortal and does not have any will, they cannot do anything once it is created.

The human beings are not like that. They are created with will power and the ability to think. So the condition is more worse. Since they are mortal, more and more direct interaction of God is required on the Earth. This is the lowest level of explanation my mind can go. I think you understood now.

Immortal mortal word usage is incorrect. Please ignore it. what I meant is without life and with life sorry for the confusion

Jaseem: From your explanations, we can understand that Jesus and Holy Spirit are only like the brushes (tools) of an artist and God is someone else. So let me remind you that even though the pictures are painted on the canvas using the brushes, no one can say; that work was the creativity of that brush; instead we can say; that work was the creativity of that artist.

Co-ordinate with our case and think

29. A Needy (dependent) Spirit of God!!

David: John 15 26 But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. John 16 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 5 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Jaseem: Here Bible is telling the Spirit of Truth will not speak on his own authority. So think; if the Spirit of Truth is Spirit of God, it means God has no authority. So it proves that Holy Spirit is not God.

Also the above sentence is telling Spirit of Truth will speak only those things which he hears. It shows the Human nature . So you can ascertain whether the person is Prophet Muhammad or not..

30. If Jesus was a God ..

David: Dear Jaseem, I think this versus in Bible are written for you. Here it clearly explains who is Jesus Christ and why God's son has taken the human nature. Please focus on Jesus Christ with an open mind, I am sure, one day he will make you a follower of Him. The truth will set you free. Please read this carefully with an open mind. Every day I will pray for you. I think Jesus has already started his work on you. Jesus is like a Magnet, Jaseem. Once you enter into the attraction field of Jesus Christ, you can't go out simply. Even after reading this, if you are not believing, that means your mind is not open to accept the truth. I think all your questions will be cleared by this portion in the Holy Bible. Again I challenge you Jaseem, you cannot prove that Jesus is not the Son of God using the Holy Bible. Please read it and comment. Jaseem: Dear David, I believe that I am following Jesus more than you; since Jesus had taught the people to believe in the almighty. Just read the following portions from Bible and ask the meaning from anybody if you don't get. (But don't tell these are secrets!!..) Matthew19:16- And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew19:17- And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Even now I am having no challenge... But I believe I already had proven what you want..... Even now I am continuing.... David: Jesus was human and a Godly being at the same time. As a son and a good teacher, and representing the human nature, it was his duty to show the Father to the people. That is the reason he said so. Also, Jesus was knowing the intention of the young man. He thought, he is a perfect person, and if he is calling Jesus as a Good teacher, he will praise him among others. That's why Jesus told like this. Moreover you didn't prove anything and you can't prove. Jaseem: {I have not taken any challenge to prove anything... My aim is only to remind you some things from Bible.... Then 'to think and prove' is your own duty}. Anyhow, some contradictions are there in your comments. You are telling Jesus' duty was to show the Father to the people. But this is wrong as per Bible. As per Bible, no need to show the Father to the people............ since 'those who are seeing

Jesus is actually seeing his Father' Now think on your own reply: What you have written is 'Jesus was not a good/ perfect person'. Now think, if not eligible to become a good person itself, then how can he become a God; the Almighty??. Also you can note Jesus had used the word "God" not "Father". What does it mean?; I believe this means Jesus is not a God or not even a part of God. Also please note, Jesus told that 'I am not Good; But God is Good'. Combine these and think and prove who is God and who was Jesus!!.. Also let me know your answer for the following question: 'Whether the people of Israel had seen God's nature, Human's nature or both natures of Jesus?' (It is a very critical question; you must reply to it; otherwise I can't give proper answer for many of your questions) David: Hebrews 1 Gods Final Word: His Son 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. The Son Superior to Angels 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, I will be his Father, and he will be my Son? Jaseem: Dear David, here you please note what God told to Jesus....... don't forget/ avoid the word 'today' which means Jesus was not God's son till that moment. (Similar words only God had told to all other prophets; Eg:Daveed had said: I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, You are my son. Today I have become your father. (Psalm 2:7) So it means there was a life time for all of them before becoming God's sons/ Prophets.... and at the starting of revelation, God said the similar words to everybody) David: You didn't understand that meaning of the sentence. Here, the writer is telling, did God ever tell like this to any of the angels. You simply misunderstood that. Read it again. Then it will be clear. 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. I think you did not understand the meaning of the above sentence. Jaseem: What I told is 'today' represents that Jesus had a starting.... But God has no starting or ending... (Your reply is not clear) David: 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all Gods angels worship him. 7 In speaking of the angels he says, He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire. 8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. 10 He also says, In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end. 13 To which of the angels did God ever say, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet? 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? Jaseem: Here, you yourself read the first sentence itself many more times since you didn't understand it. ie, And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all Gods angels worship him. David, please think to whom this gives proof; to me only. ie, here God says Jesus was not there in very past. God brought Jesus to world only after the creation of all the Angels. So think if Jesus was God, then what will become the meaning of above sentence in Bible???? (I am not explaining; instead you think yourself). David: Hebrews 2 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of deaththat is, the devil 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abrahams descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the

people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. Jaseem: We already discussed about God's love towards his son and Jesus' crucifixion. Besides those, you please think why Jesus cried and asked for help while his crucifixion????. There he was asking help from the real God.... Also, 1. If he was a God, he himself could escape from the cruel people without help from anybody. 2. If he was a God, he could know about God's (ie, his own -as per Christians' belief) decision to give his life for saving the people. So his cry means "Jesus asked help to protest against his own decision". Think if you want...... David: Devil and the people at that time had the same thought. God gave a duty to his son, as a pure person, you will be crucified for the sin of the world. So in order to win the match, Jesus should undergo that painful situation. Only because of the sacrifice in the cross, he won the game with the Satan over the cross. Don't think that fighting is the only method to win. Sacrifice also a method to win. Jaseem: Then why Jesus had cried at the time of crucifixion??... (If he knew that crucifixion would happen and that was his duty given by God). David: Hebrews 3 Jesus Greater Than Moses 1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all Gods house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5 Moses was faithful as a servant in all Gods house, bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over Gods house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. Jaseem: It doesn't mean that Jesus is a God... Since our topic is not that, I am not telling more about it. But only one thing: If Jesus was the creator of Moses, Moses should say about that explicitly (else it would be cheating). But he didn't tell anything regarding Jesus.... But; even Christians also believe that Moses was a good Prophet... Think . where had Mistaken?? David: Our topic is that Jaseem. it is clearly indicates that Jesus is above all the other prophets. Then why you are not commenting on that?? Let the God issue we can discuss on the way. It is a supporting proof that Jesus is not a prophet like the others.

Here Moses is the servant and Jesus is the Son. Please imagine the difference. Jaseem: Sorry; what I told is 'the sentence is telling Jesus is not like Moses'; but it doesn't mean or tell 'Jesus is a God.

31. Can a Human Body do Gods Deeds??

David: Jaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeem, Jesus is the Son of the God. As he is the Son of God, he shares the authority and divinity of the Father. So there is no error in the sentence. The problem is you can't understand the tri-existance of the God. Jaseem: Let me ask one simple question. Christians believe that God is having different forms like Human, Spirit, etc. My question is 'Is Jesus having different forms or Jesus is only one of the forms of God (which is having no further sub-forms)??' (It is a very critical question; you must reply to it; otherwise I can't give proper answer for many of your questions) Answer only after deep thinking... David: For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. I think you didn't read this versus also. Either you didn't read, or you didn't understand. If you don't understand, please ask me. I will try to explain. Jaseem: Not very clear; I understood that this means 'Jesus was only a Human being'; is it right? Also here, you yourself told that Jesus had to service to God. It means he was not a God; else the meaning will become 'Jesus had to service himself'.

32. Please Utilize this Opportunity!!

Jaseem: And let me remind you that you have freedom in this life to think...... So you can use that opportunity... David: There is no need of thinking Jaseem. It is not Physics to think and understand the concept. Everything is given in the Bible very clearly. The only thing is you should read it clearly after erasing some thoughts given by some of your Muslim teachers about Bible and Christians. By hanging to their thoughts, ideas and teachings, why you should waste your life?? Open Bible and read it. No need of thinking, you will see everything visible in front of your eyes. Let God open your eyes to see the truth. May God Bless You. In the name of the Holy Father, the son and the saviour Jesus Christ, the teacher and my provider the Holy Spirit, Amen Jaseem: I hope God will bless me; But why don't you need his blessings? Why are you closing your heart and eyes against the truth.. David, please remember; you are only a Human being. Mistakes may happen to anybody and that will come into observation only by studies and thoughts. Who told you that Bible is fully correct; your Parents and Teachers!. But remind, they are not the Gods. Mistakes may happen to them also. (Also applicable to my parents and teachers) My suggestion is to study about all religions and then if you find Christianity is good, you can proceed with it. But what you are arguing is without doing it............It's like the story of blind people who had felt the elephant (I remember once you told me this story). I believe; without thinking, we can't see/ feel the God. One example: What is the significance of life after death? By thinking we will get the answer as to establish 100% justice, which is not possible in the present life/ world.

33. Whether Manager himself is a Servant!?

Jaseem: 1. 2. 3. 4. David: Prophet is a human being, who can predict the future and present using the messages from the God Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. He is on the right side of the throne of his Father in the Heaven. What is the definition of prophet? Whether Holy Spirit is a prophet? Who is Jesus? (Whether he is the human form of God)?. Where is Jesus now?.

Holy Spirit is not a Prophet. He is a spirit of the God. We will give the name Prophet only to the Human forms. But all the prophecies are made through the Holy Spirit.

Jaseem: Bible is telling when the people rejected servants; God had sent His own 'son'. Now you are telling SON also is a SERVANT; isn't it?. Now you yourself think: Can anybody consider their CHILD as a SERVANT? .

David: Even if you are working as an employee, you will be his Son. na?? What yaar? for these kind of things also you need explanation?? Jesus was a Good Son, A Good Son to his earthly mother and Adoption father, He was a Good preacher, He was a Good Friend, He was a good human being, He was a prophet, he was a Good Priest and etc etc upto infinity. But he was the Son of the almighty, sharing his divinity and authority. That is the ultimate truth and message of the Bible.

He was not "the prophet". He was a prophet also.

Jaseem: Whatever you told is like a person in a company. He is the manager of a company; he himself is a worker in that company; also he himself is a servant in that company ..Isnt it? Also think about it!!.

34. Is God limited to Israel??

Jaseem: In Bible, Mathew15:22-26 says: 22 Behold, a Canaanite woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, Have mercy on me, Lord, you son of David! My daughter is severely demonized! 23But he answered her not a word. His disciples came and begged him, saying, Send her away; for she cries after us. 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs."

What does it mean David? Can God say like this?.. I believe this incident clearly shows that Jesus is not a God or even a part of God. Or tell me whether God is limited only for Israels?

David: I feel ashamed of my self saying this again and again to you. My dearest brother and friend JASEEEEEEMMMMM,,,, Please read Bible and tell. at least read Bible once yaar. It is my humble request to you. Did you read the rest of the versus???
27

Yes it is, Lord, she said. Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters table.

Then Jesus said to her, Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted. And her daughter was healed at that moment.

28

Jesus said that Just to test her faith. Jesus is the first teacher, who went outside the Jewish territories and healed many people outside Israel. He changed the concept to the women also. Many examples are there. Sir, you please read Bible and tell.

Jaseem: No!; A God will never reject or prevent anybody from asking anything... You can interpret anything in any way; but in that sentence Jesus says: "I am only for Israel...".... He might have done (cured) something; but the above reply to that woman should never come from a Loving God... Eg:- In your house, consider you are serving dinner to the poor people. If a middle class person comes, what will you do? Probably you will tell him: "This is actually arranged for poor; but anyhow you came here. How can I reject you; ok; just eat and go; no problem"............ But remind; the aim/ label of the function remain unchanged.... Also in above sentence 'Jesus' used the word 'Israel'..... not even the 'believers'.... there is no testing in that sentence!!!...

David: You are correct. The Bible and Jesus are related to Israel. But there is a reason for that. I request you to read from old testment onwards. Then you can understand that.

However, the purpose of above scenario is just to test her faith in Jesus Christ as a God. Please read it again.

In many occations, God acted only for the Israel in Bible. That doesn't mean that God is a bad God. That is because of the personal call of that people from God. But this question was just a test question.

35. Some Critical Questions before proceeding

Jaseem: Two important questions are there. 1. 'Whether the people of Israel had seen God's nature, Human's nature or both natures of Jesus?' 2. Christians believe that God is having different forms like Human, Spirit, etc. My question is 'Is Jesus having different forms or Jesus is only one of the forms of God (which is having no further sub-forms)??') Give answers for these two very urgently. Then only I can give proper reply for your other comments.. David: Dear Jaseem, Jesus was the God and Human being at the same time. The people of Israel has seen his both natures. Especially those who were close to Jesus. In fact, God send his divinity to take the human form to understand the pain and temptations of human beings and to live with them and to show who is God. That's why he was always talking about the Father in Heaven.

Another question I have is, Do you know what is the reason for Jesus's crucifixion? I don't want your own answers. I want the answers from Bible. Please read Bible and give me the answer.

Jaseem: (We can discuss about the Jesus' crucifixion after our current discussions.)

Now please give me the answer for my 2nd question also...

David: Kidding??

See, we cannot keep God into our own definitions. According to Bible, Three existences of God can be seen. 1. God the Father 2. God the Son of Father 3. Holy spirit, the spirit from Father

These three existences are clearly mentioned in Bible. There is no sub form nothing like that. That you are teasing me. I understood. What I am telling is from Bible. Not from my own knowledge. When Jesus were in the Human Form in the world, he had the same divinity as the Father.

Jaseem: Sorry; I am not teasing.... These I asked to avoid much confusion in our discussions.

Now also some doubt is there... You told me Jesus had the form of Human. My doubt is: in the Human form how he could be a God?.

Also, I wish to know whether Jesus had/ has any other form now or whether he is in the form of Human now also??

David:

In Genesis, there is an explanation. Angels took the human form and came to visit Abraham. Even though they came as human beings, they were angels.

In another occasion, an angel will talk to the prophet Bileam via his donkey. That is, nothing is impossible to God. In Jesus's case, Jesus is taking the form of a Human flesh.

Did you see yanthiran film?? In that one scene is there. Inorder to help Aishwarya, the original Rajani (the scientist, the inventor of the Robot) will act as a Robot. Just said for an analogy. For your clarity.

In Genisis you can see that God created the human beings in his own form. So for a special purpose, God can take the human form and remain as God and Human being at the same time as the God is almighty and nothing is impossible to him.

Jesus was with the God before the creation. The Godly birth of Jesus is not known. However, for a special purpose of God, Jesus took the human flesh. That's al.

36. Can a Human become Male and Female Simultaneously!?

Jaseem: My doubt is: in Human form, whether Jesus acted as a Human or God?.

David: I have already sent a mail regarding the diety of Jesus Christ. I will send it again.

Please go through the pdf. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ This document says Jesus was fully a God and Jesus was truly a Human also. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Jaseem: Great answer.........but.... Let me ask one question!. Can a human become man and women simultaneously? Or can 'fire' become 'water' at the same time?. Now your question may be 'can light have particle and wave nature simultaneously?'!!. But the fact is: particle and wave natures are not contradictory; but man and woman nature is contradictory!!. So if anybody is showing both male and female nature, then that person is neither a man nor a woman; but a third category.......... But a man can show both a police role and a doctor role (like the light); which are not contradictory. And remind; all of the prophets were having some of supernatural characters. Now I hope you will understand. ie, God's nature (Almighty, Producer, Master, Controller, etc) can never compromise with Human nature (Weak, Consumer, Slave, etc) !!.

Dear David, Your Future is in your hands and My Future is in my hands. You will not be asked for my deeds; and I will not be asked for your deeds.... So if you want; think yourself!!.

David: No yaar.... You are mistaken. The limitations that you are seeing in Jesus Christ is because of his human flesh. I have explained why Jesus took the human flesh. It is to feel the pain, temptations etc, that the human beings are facing in their day to day life. But the thing is Jesus never sinned. You cannot see a single limitation in Jesus' Godly form. He was perfect as a God and Human Being. As he had the human flesh, he felt hungry, thirsty, pain, love, sadness, happiness etc. That is God took the human flesh to sacrifice or to tolerate the pain for the human sin. Many time I told you Jaseem. No need of thinking. You just read Bible. Everything is clear in Bible. You are confused still, since you didn't read the Bible clearly. Your teachers are cheating you by giving false teachings and some of the references from Bible Jaseem. I think you have more knowledge and belief in God than them. Please open your Bible and read it today. Don't be blind with open eyes.

Jaseem: You are arguing that we cant see a single limitation in Jesus' Godly form. But the truth is we cant see a single incident in which Jesus was in Godly form. The reason is he was having only human form; and hence was unable to act as a God.

37. Will God Do Everything!?

Jaseem: Also, a human form is limited to a small place; a human eye can't see beyond a limit; can't hear beyond a limit;..... can't control the world or even a country or even a single village. So if simultaneously Jesus was a God, he should have a 2nd form besides Human's at the same time.

I also believe that Jesus gave the life for some of dead bodies, cured some of diseases, etc. (And he himself told us that nothing had done by himself; instead had done by the help of God). And the aim of such deeds was to prove himself as a Prophet like all other prophets (already explained).

But a God is one who is Almighty......; having unlimited power. But above I already mentioned some of the limitations of Jesus... I can further give you thousands of limitations of Jesus compared to God.

David: Also, you are trying to limit the powers of the God. You are correct. Human being cannot become God. However, the God can take the human flesh and can remain as God at the same time. God is almighty. He can do anything at any time. Jesus told, if you three people praying in a room anywhere in the world, I will be among you. That shows, Jesus is present everywhere. That shows Jesus' divine nature. None of the prophets can tell like that. No need of thinking Jaseem. Please open Bible and read it. Everything is crystal clear there.

Jaseem: No David; If a male became female after a plastic surgery, etc then that person is not at all a male. Like that if God changed his form to Human's; then that is a Human; not a God... or we can say a partial Human-God.

The thing is below for more clear: If anyone is there who is almighty, he cant be a human; and if anyone is there who is not almighty, he cant be a God. Now tell me: if possible to someone to become 'almighty' and 'not almighty' at the same time?. Eg:- whether anyone can 'sit' and 'stand' at the same time?

David: Please tell me why God cannot take the human flesh. Who is restricting God for doing that?? Why God has such limitations? Is there anyone from Kozhikode is restricting God to do that?? kidding okay. Nothing yaar. God can sit and stand at the same time. God can see this 70 billion human beings at the same time and God can personally all of them. How it is possible?? Jesus told I will be present among you, wherever two persons praying in my name. How a human being can do such things?? You are using the word almighty frequently and limiting God's power. I don't know why. NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GOD YAAR.... What I am telling is not mine Jaseem, It is from Bible. Read Bible daily. Make it as a habit.

Jaseem: Dear David,

{If I overtake you in the arguments, it doesnt mean you failed; and if you overtake me in the arguments, it doesnt mean I failed. The truth is always truth if 99% or even 100% of the people are against it. And the false is always false if 99% or even 100% of the people support it.-You and Me should remind these truths throughout in our discussions}.

Now I will give you two examples for explaining my thoughts.

You might have seen the airplanes. Those are too big. But the same company is able to make a small airplane (like toys in our showcases) using the same materials; but nobody can travel using that airplane. So the form is limiting the power/ purpose.

If sun is situated in the sky (ie,1000s of kms above the Earth), then it is possible to get proper light for Kerala and Karnataka at the same time. Also the hills and valleys will get proper light at the same time. But if the same sun is on the earth surface in any of the places in Kerala, then Karnataka or even most of other places in Kerala will be dark always. What is the difference here?. Both the suns are having same energy and light; but the place is limiting the power/ purpose.

Similarly, God is Almighty and is able to take any form and is able to do anything he wishes. But if he takes the form of a Human being, He will become unable to control the world because of the limitations of that form.

Also think; the owner of a house is having the power and will to become the servant of his servant, or is able to give the ownership of that house to his servant. But will anybody do that?.

David, you can argue God can take Human form; but remember; it is wrong Otherwise in near future you may also argue God can take Satan form also The fact is God can do anything; but He will not do some things .

Eg:- God is able to send all of the people to Hell and nobody is able to question Him; But God will not do that Can you object it?

sit and stand is an example/ usage in the language. Similar to it, the clearer question about God is Can anybody become Almighty and Weak at the same time? ..(we already discussed about the weakness of Human form).

About Bible: Once I had told I dont believe in (present existing) Bible and my aim is to remind you that you Christians are not trying to understand Bible correctly; instead you are giving your own explanations to that .. Otherwise you should believe that Jesus was a good Prophet and there is only One God; the Almighty.

Next please give me the answers for following questions: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Whether Bible the words of God? Whether Bible written by Humans? Whether Bible written using their (Humans) own thoughts? Whether Bible having any contradictions? Whether Holy Spirit or God having any role in the Bible literature (writing)?

Think.... then reply..

David: Jaseem, my Silence doesn't mean that you have won the arguments and I have failed in that. My Silence is due to the time constrains. Model Exams. Lab Exams, and Semester Exams are going on. So Please be patient. You cannot defeat the truth. I have the truth in my hand like an AK47 and you have some arguments like a knife. So don't think that you have won and I don't have answers now. The fact is I didn't read most of your mail. I didn't get time for that. I will come with answers (That I got from God) for each and every line of your mail.

Dear Jaseem, Your analogy to Sun will exists only if Jesus came to the Earth in his Godly form. Since he took the Human flesh, there is no problem in existing on the earth.

So your analogy will not exist.

Jaseem: Then who is Jesus?................... Till now, you told me 2 things: 1. Jesus is visible image of invisible God. (means he has no Godly form; instead having only Human form) 2. Jesus has no sub-forms or sub-divisions But clearly listen to your own (above) words!!.. Here you are telling Jesus didnt come to earth in Godly form; means he has another form also ..; which is contradictory to both of your arguments.

David: If you are seeing your shadow, that is you itself na?? If you are not there means there is no shadow. If there is no shadow means, you are not there. That's all. That is the meaning of the visible image of the invisible God.

Godly form in the sense, How Jesus is in the Heaven. You are mistaken by the limitation of my words. He didn't show his Godly appearance, instead he took the the Human flesh.

38. Doesnt Islam teach Love!?

David: Another thing is God's one and only Son showed that much politeness to take the human form, because his father loved the world that much. God is Love. His love is like the Love of a mother. So I believe that God will go up to any extant because of his love. That is the message of the Bible. I think you cannot understand this because there is no teaching about Love in your religion. The best Definition we can give to the God is Love.

Jaseem: (Once more I remind you that all of your and my comments and replies will be published. So be careful about each and every argument).

Have you read Holy Quran? Have you asked any Islamist about the teaching of Love in Islam? Whether anybody told that Islam not teaches Love??

Many times you told that you have not studied anything other than Bible. Also you told that you are not even willing to read/ study anything outside your religion.

About Islam: The practical implementation forms of Love are Help, Justice, Kind, Giving food, shelter, etc, Equality, Console, Expenditure for poor, Rights, Respect, etc. Islam teaches: if anybody says I love you, its good; but the better is to implement (in practical) the Love through the different ways like above.

Also Islam says those who fills their stomachs while their neighbors are in hungry, are not Muslims.

Also Islam taught: None of you becomes a Muslim; until you like to be happened those things/ incidents for your brothers & sisters, whichever you like to happen for you.

One more: Prophet had said: You will never become good believers until you love each other. (Many many other incidents and quotes are there regarding Love in Islam. If you ready to read or search Holy Quran, I will give you those .)

And once I told an incident in the world history. Once more I am repeating that:

After one war, Hims (a place) came under Muslims; but immediately another war started in Anthakkiya (Damascus) by the enemies of Islam. So the Muslims told to the people in Hims (majority of them were Christians): We are going to Anthakkiya. So you may take your taxes (that you had paid for our government) back. But none of those Christians were willing to do it; instead they became sad and prayed for the Muslims: May the Almighty bring you back to Here . {You can refer History; this incident had happened at the time of Khalif Umar}.

Now you can tell me why the Muslims had done many wars for Christians, etc? Because that is the teaching of Islam .. The rescue of those people from the cruel rule of Rom and Persia Kings was taken as a duty by the Muslims.

David: Seriously Jaseem, I am not at all interested in any other Relegion. I have started the discussion, only because you were using the versus from Bible for false teachings. That is not good na?? That's why. I Believe I have seen the full expression of God in Jesus Christ and all the truth about God in Bible. So I am not at all interested in any other things. I have eaten lot of Ladu and Gilebi. I don't want Munch, Perk, Diary milk etc. Please don't I can't eat. That's why.

Please understand my situation. I just asked because you cannot understand the God's love towards human beings.

Jaseem: You are not willing to study about Islam; but you are blaming it without knowing anything... But I read the Bible and only the difference between us is the meanings or interpretations!!. Think.......if you are sincere!!.

David: I never blamed islam. Can you show any occation I have blamed islamism?? But I can show many occations that you have blamed Christianity. Jaseem: I leave the reply for this comment to the readers.

David: When you publish the Book, you have more freedom to alter, delete or add things on the comments. You can also conclude in a way which is favorable for you. Hence, please don't put my name anywhere. I can also publish a Book I think. I will think about that in future.

Jaseem: David, you please download all our discussion pages. There you can see my promise not to change any of your comments.... That is a promise... Also while the Christian friend gets the blog address from me, you will also get the same.... Then you can check it...... Please wait and feel the promise...

39. Welcomes New discussion..

Jaseem: Now you can start discussion about Jesus' crucifixion, its reasons and aims..

David: I am not interested. That is not my topic of discussion.

Jaseem: Ok...... once you asked to discuss about it; but at that time I thought to complete the current discussions.....that's why I asked now to start on that. If you are not interested, no problem!!.

David: These discussions are more than enough yaar.... First you read all these things clearly.

40. Nicaea Council & Authority of Bible

Jaseem: I heard about Nicaea council & Constant Nopple synod which had happened a couple of centuries after Jesus (period). In Nicaea council, one new creed came which was God is One but Two. In Constant Nopple synod, one more new creed came which was God is One but Three. So before that, Christians were believing only in 1 God; ie Father!!. I believe that the people in the beginning (at the time of Jesus) would be best believers. Unfortunately, the arguments of todays Christians mean all of them (at the beginning) will be in Hell (since they didnt believe in Trinity)!!. David: Dear Jaseem, No convention nothing is required to get the truth about God yaar. See, I am sharing this things with you because someone has taught me in this way. I have read Bible myself many times and I believe the Holy Spirit is with me and he is giving the truth into my mind. In between me and God, there is no one, including the Priest in my Church. So all that kind of thing are irrelevant. I believe in Bible especially the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is enough for getting a correct concept about all. No convention nothing!!! If you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John thoroughly, you will get a crystal clear truth about God. Please read it and tell me. Why you are diverting the discussion to 16th century and all?? It is a Good idea to tell the Book is wrong if your concept is contradicting with the actual concept in the Book na??? Ha ha ha... That is not a good approach Jaseem.

Jaseem:

You yourself told the truth; ie, you are telling all the things in the same way which someone had taught you. But the problem is you are not willing to think or ascertain whether those teachings are correct or not!!. If I also think like that I would not study about other religions or books. The result of this mentality is, those in wrong/ blind path will never escape. So my suggestion is to change this by-heart mentality and try to ascertain and understand. Also you told that there is no one between you and God; but my question is then why cant you directly pray to the God; ie, Father?. What is the need of intermediates??

41. The Unavoidable History & the Growth of Christian Believes!!

David: Dear Jaseem, I am not believing in Bible and Jesus Christ not because of some councils or some of the meetings held by some of the churches in the past centuries or future centuries. I am believing since I had personal experience with Bible and Jesus Christ. That depend only on me and God. So no questions will affect me. Anyone can question anything. That will be there till the end of the world. In God I Believe. For everything else, I need proof. In Jesus I have seen the pure and full expression of God. ie, GOD IS LOVE. I Believe that Bible is God's word and no one can change it. If it was not from the God, it wont get that much publicity, and new meaning and message from God till after 2000 years. I am fully satisfied with the Original Version of the Bible. Unfortunately I don't want any other Beta Versions.... (Please don't cut my fingers, hands, and head for saying this- that your people will usually do) In Bible Jesus told ask to me, I will give you. You can pray in my name. I am the way, truth and life. No one will enter the Heaven without me. Also, on the birth of Jesus Christ, Angel told Joseph to put his name as IMMANUEL. The word meaning of Immanuel is God is with US. So I don't have any doubt. You have doubts, since you didn't read Bible clearly.

I don't have any other mediators in between me and the Gods only begotten Son, the Jesus Christ. Let the holy spirit forgive you for your comments on him.

I am sure, Jesus will make you as a weapon for him. I am waiting for that day with a smile in my lips. You will become more on that day for Jesus Christ.

Jaseem: Why do you fear while telling about Christian history? I am telling only the truth; and those incidents are unavoidable in the growth of Christian believes!. (You many times told about Jesus and about his works, etc. But remember those had happened before 1st century. But now, I am telling the things happened in 4th century Unfortunately in 2nd case only what is the cause of problems??) But my important question is this: I believe that the good believers are those present at the time of Jesus and in the nearest centuries. But those didnt believe Jesus as a God; instead they believed God is One and Jesus was a good son of God only like Adam, Solomon, Daveed, etc. Can you argue that those all believers were in False? David: I don't fear to say something about the Christian History. I am believing in Christianity not because of the history tradition and all. The thing is I am just believing fully in the Holy Bible and Jesus Christ. I told you in the beginning itself that, the assumption, is I believe in the Bible fully and nothing wrong in that. That is the first and most important assumption. For the Belief in the Holy Father, Holy Son and the Holy Spirit via the Present Bible, I don't want any proof and I am ready to believe it without any questions. That is my base. What I have done is I have shown you that what you are arguing about Jesus Christ is wrong, when we study Bible. That is the essence of my Discussion. I think now you understood that you cannot prove your arguments using Bible. That's why now you are questioning the authority of the Bible. I was waiting only for this moment. Hence, Jaseem, I have proved with Bible that Jesus is the only begotten Son of the God. He is not just a prophet and a human being, rather he is divine in nature. He came from the heaven,

sharing the Godhead, taken the human flesh, died on the cross for Human sin and resurrected from the ultimate death and went back to the Heaven, and sitting on the right side of the Father.

Thank you very much for your understanding, cooperation and patience. If you can continue your arguments, using Bible, I will be here to discuss with you. Otherwise, Our discussion came to an end, since you understood that you cannot prove your arguments using the Bible and the Only option is to question the authority of the Bible. I simply believe in Bible and it came from the God through the Holy Spirit, and it is the word of god about love, life and scarifies. Still after 2000 years, it is con solving the sorrows of many people around the world, many came to the life from sin after reading it and it is healing the body and soul of many people around the Globe. Still Jesus and the Bible remain as the center of attraction of the world after 2000 years!!!! A Prayer Oh! God, thank you for giving this wonderful discussion between me and Jaseem. I thank you father for you have given the truth to him. It is not me, just you worked through me. Please interact with his heart in future. Make all his ventures in victory. Bless his family and friends. Thank you for making him understand about Jesus Christ and Bible. Please use me as a weapon in your Hands. In the name of the Holy Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Jaseem: Please give me the proper answer for my question: "Whether the believers before Nicaea Council believed Jesus as a God?" If yes; then how a 'creed' will come?... a creed will be written only when the existing law/ belief is changing or modifying!!.. If no; then can you argue that those all believers before Nicaea Council were in wrong way?

42. Is Bible Authentic??

Jaseem: You told me that you will not read Holy Quran since it is not mentioned in Bible. OK; your choice . But if (by any means) God ask you in future David, you have mistaken; when people in your religion had changed/modified the Holy Bible, once again I had sent a new pure version of Holy Bible as (the name) Holy Quran which clearly strengthened the teachings of Jesus. And one person had told you about it; then why couldnt you just read that? Can you give the same answer sincerely in such an incident also?. (Its only for Eg; May God rescues us from such bad situations) -------------

David: I expect that finally you will question the authority of Bible. Finally don't ask who is God Ok?? I haven't tried to change your belief using Quran na?? What I am telling is, you cannot prove your belief or arguments using the Holy Bible in which I believe. I don't have any responsibility to Believe in Qu'ran, as there is nothing mentioned about the same in Bible. So I won't come for an argument with Qu'ran. But surely I will come for an argument if you are using Bible, since you didn't read it fully. Also I believe in the authority in the Bible.

Jaseem: No need of fear; the authority of Bible is already questioned!. You cant prevent anyone from questioning; instead your duty is to give proper replies. So give me replies for my following questions (which are already asked; but didnt get any replies) 1. Whether Bible the words of God? 2. Whether Bible written by Humans? 3. Whether Bible written using their (Humans) own thoughts? 4. Whether Bible having any contradictions? 5. Whether Holy Spirit or God having any role in the Bible literature (writing)? Think.... then reply

David: 1. Yes Bible is the Words of God to the Human generations at different times of the world. 2. Yes, Bible is written by the Human Hands. 3. No, Bible is not written based on Human thoughts. Human beings can't written like that. 4. Those who are reading the Bible for the first time may feel contradictions. You will be cleared with everything, after reading the Bible fully. Also, since the Bible is written with the help of the Holy spirit, the help of Holy spirit is essential in getting the messages fully. Those don't have such belief may feel it as a mere Book like Harry potter or something, so they may not understand much of the things. 5. Yes, Holy spirit is the inspiration for writing the Bible. It happened because of the will of the Holy spirit and not by the human will. That doesn't mean that it is word by word narration of the Holy Spirit

I don't accept any of the arguments about the authority of the Bible, as I believe in Bible fully. I didn't study about all these things. I have studied about only the things inside the Bible. If you are interested, you can continue on that.

I WONT/CANT/NEVER QUESTION THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE. I don't have the responsibility to check the authority since I am believing. That is called Belief......

All the questions related to the authority of the Bible, I will consider it just as your 19th step to escape from the discussion I have started. I challenge you to prove your arguments using the Holy Bible!!!!

43. The Major Aims & Unavoidable Facts

Jaseem: I wish to tell about my aim: I tried to convey the messages of Islam with you; unfortunately you told that you will not accept anything outer to Bible. Even though; I continued the discussions. The reason was the same...... to publish this discussion to other friends.... (Really, you are the first person who discussed about Christianity with me for longer time). If I write something and publish that, no one will read that..... But I hope the people will show much more interest in reading inter-discussions....... So thanks for all your comments..... Also, throughout our discussion, never I repeated any of comments more than twice or thrice. The reason also is same..... I want to cover more topics in our discussions as possible... The Nicaea council and authority of Bible also are 2 out of them...... You can consider this as an escape......... But remember this will be read by many believers; so if you give proper answer they can read it; otherwise; as you told, they will think this is a 19th step where Christianity will fall down!!!. Still my question is not answered...................................!

David: I wish to tell about my aim I have noticed and heard that you are trying to Quote Bible for your False teachings about Jesus Christ. As a Believer and a Christian, it is my duty to clarify your wrong concepts and understandings. That's why I have started the discussion from my side. The things I have referred for our discussion is the Holy Bible and two pdf s regarding Jesus' deity.

All thoughts I have presented were given by the Holy Spirit. Nothing is from my mouth and knowledge. Everything was from the wisdom of Heaven. Why I can't comment on the Council issue is that, 1. It is not from the Bible. So I wont get the help of Holy spirit to understand and analyze the

things. 2. It is not a good manner to comment on the things that I don't know. 3. I am not interested on these kinds of things like History and all. Because history is the story of the Powerful person at that time. 4. I believe in Bible. So I don't want to study about the authority. I believe in God. So I don't want to search for the History, Geography, Morphology and Statistics etc of the God. I believe in Bible as I believe in God. 5. If you are questioning the authority of the Bible, then you may question the authority of God one day. You will ask who is God? Where is God located in the universe? Where is the exact location of the heaven like that. These are all unknown questions. Unknown to the human beings, due to our limitations. We didn't understand our 3 year old kids still... We are arguing that I understood about God, and god wont do this things God will do only this things etc. I will answer all these questions, if you can show me a "worm" that can understand everything about Human beings. unfortunately, our view is also like that only. I can show someone who knows more about that. Also you can search for any christian Blogs and ask your question there. I can answer this thing in future. But I need thorough studies for that. i don't have the resources and time for the same at this time.

I am satisfied in one thing. Finally you understood that you cannot question the Godhead and son ship of Jesus Christ using Bible. Thanks for your understanding in that.

Jaseem: Five facts: 1. I am questioning only the Modified/ changed Bible which Christians are using now. I believe in the original Bible as words of God. But unfortunately that is not present now. So I can question the present day Bible. 2. The God is (only) one. But you told Jesus and Holy Spirit are also parts of God; so I questioned that also. 3. I already told that my aim is not to defeat/ overtake you. So my duty is only to share/ tell the

things..... That's why I am just telling the facts (not repeating my comments again and again). How it shows your victory? .... You can say anything like that; which is your 'Human-right'..... But the truth is always truth... 4. It need not conclude as I won or you won; My policy is: "Let the readers read and choose whichever they seem better for them!" 5. You are telling that you are not interested on these kinds of things like History and all. But please remind; if there is no History, there is no Jesus; there is no Bible. Do you believe on a Bible which came in 2011?. No...... Bible came more than 2000 years back....................means in Past..............means in History............ So you can't believe in Bible until you believe (become interested) in History. Also Bible had been changed and modified many times during this 2000 years period....... So without History, your belief will never complete..... One more thing: You told you don't believe in History; instead you believe in the original Bible...... so (if you are sincere in your words) you should stop believing 'Jesus as a God' and should pray only to the real God; ie, Father. The reason is: the people started believing 'Jesus as a God' during these 2000 (historical) years period; means after life time of Jesus...

44. Partial Incomplete Godheads!!

David: Dear Jaseem, You think that If Jesus is taking the human form, there is no God in the Heaven and the throne of the God is Empty. That is your Mistake. In Godhead, you can see the three existence of the God at the same time. In Jesus' baptism, you can see the presence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. God can exist in three existences simultaneously. Since the Father and the Holy spirit are on their own positions, the Son can do whatever he like on the Earth.

In order to take the human flesh, the son has sacrificed his authority, divinity etc when he was on the earth. In Heaven, he was free and no worries to him. After taking the human flesh, Jesus became hungry, thirsty, sad, happy etc. Even though he was the God, he took the human flesh and become equal to the human beings. After his resurrection, he went back to the old seat and now he is sharing the Godhead.

The Servant concept you didn't understand clearly. God-Gods Servant- Human Beings. If one person is Servant of God, he is more that the human being, as he came from the God as the Servant. Since he was the God in Human flesh, he was a perfect human being. He has shown his Godhead only in some instances when he was on the earth. That is the scarifies of the Son. He is in the equal Godhead now with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Also, he won over his death. He went to the Heaven. He is sharing the throne of the almighty in the Heaven. He will come back again in Clouds.

Jaseem:

As per Bible, we can say Jesus doesnt exist today ie, God is having only 2 forms today. The reason is: Bible says Jesus was the visible image of invisible God and he is not visible today. Also you told that the working area of Jesus was on Earth!.

David: Jesus was in the Heaven, even before the creation of the Earth. Read Bible yaar. I told you many times. What I told is the Human flesh form of Jesus was on the earth till his crucifixion. After the resurrection, Jesus went back to his old place, the Heaven, the right side of the throne of the almighty and he is sitting there. Jesus himself told about this many times. You can read Bible. So the trinity with respect to the Heaven is still exists. These are all your simple imaginations like small kids.

Jaseem: This is what I asked you many times that 'whether Jesus having any other for than Human?' As per Bible, God took the Human form and became Jesus.- read this sentence many more times.. So, what I told is: (as per Bible) Jesus lost his Human form; means, God withdrew one form and having only 2 forms. Else tell me what Jesus can do in Heaven with his Human form. Also; if we pray to Jesus; how can he hear it? So why are you Christians pray to Jesus in heaven?; why can't you pray to Real invisible God (Father) who is present everywhere?????.

David: Jaseem, Father Son and Holyspirit together constitutes the God. We can't separate them. Why praying to Jesus? Jesus only told that.

Jaseem: Earlier you told me that they three are separate. Now you are telling they three together becomes God; So Jesus is not a God; his Father is not a God; Holy Spirit is not a God...... a combination of all these 3 only a God!!.(as per your comment). Is it correct??. It means each of these three are only 1/3 part of God???. Is it correct??. But Bible many times describes many incidents about the 'commands of God/ Father' to Jesus and Holy Spirit; but never says anything regarding 'Father was commanded'. But you are saying 'even Father has no much importance than other two....!!'.

David: Can you say your heart and brain are Jaseem or not Jaseem?? They are together form the Body(spiritual sense) of the God. we can experience them separately. But we cannot separate them

Jaseem: No; I can't say my heart or brain is Jaseem; those are only some parts!!. Now I understood.................... that as per the Christians belief, Father is not a complete God; Jesus is not a complete God; Holy Spirit is not a complete God ....Instead..... all of them are only some parts of God.......

David: No Jaseem, it is just analogy. I meant we cannot just separate them. Together they constitute the God. However,in the history of the earth, we can see the three existence at the same time via Bible. ie, Baptism of Jesus Christ. You can see the presence of the three existence at the same time. At that moment, they are three existence of God and they are equally called God. However, the hierarchy and arrangement of this Godhead in the Heaven is unknown with

respect to the heaven. Consider, Electromagnetic wave and fire. electric field , magnetic field and direction of propagation together contribute to the EM Wave, We can study about them individually. But we cannot separate them. If we separate, there is nothing with the name EM Wave. Fire is heat, light and plasma form of materials. We can study about them separately. but we cannot separate them. When we think about Jesus, Father and the Holy Spirit, we are not thinking about 3Gods. we are thinking about a single God.

Jaseem: I don't feel to repeat the explanations again and again...... I feel what I already told is enough.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

45. Personal request!!!

David: Arre yaar... please don't publish my dialogues, arguments, and discussions anywhere please. I don't want to be disabled in this small age. Please allow me to live with full body organs. I am not feared of my beliefs. But I want to do more things for Jesus Christ and the Society. If you publish it means, it is like killing me. So please please don't do that kind of things. I am really afraid of your peoples reactions. They don't know what they are doing. They don't know what is Love, kindness, forgiveness etc. They will simply cut human organs like they are cutting hen, goat,etc. Please don't do that to me. Okay....

Jaseem: I hope to publish (in blog) those. Surely I hope to send those discussions to all of the Muslim and Christian friends. The reason is: let them study about all of these religions and concepts and let them think and take the correct path.. Let Muslims study about Christianity....and Let Christians study about Islam..... Why to fear?? You know even 'Jesus' was ready to say the truth and was ready to suffer anything in that way; then why can't you (if you are really sincere)? David; dont think that if you or I were killed; all things (religion) will end........ The truth will Win even though 1 or even 1000s of the leaders were killed... And if you are sincere about above sentence and don't like to publish it; I will send those to only Christian friends.... So they can study about Islam..... But the Muslims will not get any knowledge about Christianity..... think who is the looser here! .....

Two more options: 1. I have not written anything about you or even your full name in the document. So need not fear!.

2. I will publish all the things after replacing your name... I really know I am not the best person in Islam. Also I am aware about my limitations and mistakes. I fear some of the things (that I said) may not be the proper teachings of Islam..... But only thing is 'I want to do whatever I can'; 'I want to share my knowledge with many people as I can'....... But at the same time I want to improve my knowledge also!!... So suggest me your option.... Tell me what to do?. I know you are using a chance to blame Islam..... But I can't do that. Because I am an Islamist and not a terrorist. Means I respect all other religions even though not believing in most of those... Do you know who is terrorist?..... See your own words just above...... even though not believing in Islam; you can respect that religion.... If not willing to respect and is blaming without knowing anything, then you yourself think 'is this Love; is this Good?'.

David: Seriously I am not blaming Islam Jaseem. That is none of my business. I never went to quote Qu'ran and teach false things. So I wont care about anyone from any other relegion if they are quoting their own books. Since, you are quoting Bible, It is my duty to discuss that with you.

Why should I waste my life for unnecessory things?? Your muslim friends will not see my christian concepts. They will see only the things I have told against muslim concepts(if any)

Also. I dont believe that someone will come t Jesus without attracted by the Father. You can send it to your Christian friends with both of our names. They can understand it and they will take in that way.

If you are sending it to your muslim friends, please remove my name and my E-mail ID. Name is not that much important Jaseem, only matter is important.

Okay. without my name or details, you can publish no issue. It is your duty to keep my name and details as a secret.

Jaseem: Ok...

46. An Invitation to Islam; the Revised New Version of Jesus' Religion

Jaseem: Dear friend, Here I hope to tell about the believes of Muslims about Jesus and Holy Bible. (Some points we already discussed; but I repeat them only to get a flow; sorry!) 1. Without believing in Jesus as a prophet and original Bible as the words from real God, no one can become a Muslim. 2. We believe that 'son of God' is a technical word in Bible. It means one who is in close touch with God. So this means 'Prophet of God'. So as per Bible, Jesus, Solomon, Adam, etc. were prophets. 3. Also, since 'Holy Bible' was the book given to Jesus by the God, we believe that there should not come any conflict or issue even though we analyze it word by word. And a Human being is not allowed to change even a single letter in it. But you, me and the world know that the Bibles what we are seeing today are only the changed versions of that 'Holy Bible'. Some people added many things and deleted many things to and from the 'Holy Bible'. At the last, the latest Bible itself is known as 'Revised Standard Version' 1951 onwards. ------------------Also seeing Bible as a whole, you will never get the idea that 'Jesus is a God'. Some examples:1. Bible says 'Jesus is a son of Human' more times than 'Jesus is son of God'. 2. He never said that he is a God, but only told 'I am son of God'; if he was a God, then why couldn't he say that 'I am a God' at least once?. 3. Jesus always was saying about the Almighty. When he was crucifying by Jews, then also he prayed to Almighty, ie, real God. (For more examples see the note: 24 things to prove that Jesus is not a God) 4. Also Bible (old and new testaments) tell us that after Jesus, one man will come to the world and will tell more things than Jesus had told and he will lead the people in all right paths. That man is Prophet Muhammad. He came when the people were going away from right believes and started changing the basic believes what Jesus had taught them. {All other prophets, including Jesus had come to earth for the same aim only. It means: Moses had told the people good things; but when the people changed those real basics, Jesus came to refresh them. Similarly Prophet Muhammad also came for refreshing the old believers; not to build a new religion}.

Also, if any other God was there with Almighty, then the older Prophets should at least mention about it or should at least say that 'one God will come to you after me'. But, even in old testaments, we can't see even a single sentence regarding the different forms of God. Old Testament said that one prophet will come to us; means God had already planned about it at the time of Moses itself........ So if Jesus is a God then Moses should use the word 'God' instead of 'Prophet'. And Christians also agree that Jesus was considered as a God only after 'Nicaea Council'. So I invite all my friends to the real teachings of 'Great Jesus'.... which today known as 'Islam'. About Basic faith-differences between today's Christianity and Islam: 1. Islam says there is only one God which is invisible. And he has no helpers, sons, or any coworkers. Instead, all the things in the world other than that Almighty are only His Slaves; and all of them are under control of that Real God. 2. We can pray directly to the real God; because He is able to hear and see us all simultaneously. And he loves all of us very much; so there is no need of recommendations. 3. All the men and women are pure while birth. They will become sinned only when they do something against God's commands. 4. The sin of a person will not be transferred to his children or any other person. All of the people will be rewarded/ punished only for their deeds. Even though, if somebody is believing 100% and is involving in bad deeds; he may not get Heaven...... For Heaven, both the 'Belief' and 'Work (good deeds) are necessary. May Almighty Bless Us and show the Right Path!.

David: Jaseem, even though I have exams, I am so compelled to reply to your mail, as Holy spirit is urging me to do that in my spirit.

What they are revising??? Actually the Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek. That original version is not at all revised or added extra things to it. What they are revising is the TRANSLATIONS.

It is a necessity, since the language and usage and meaning of the words in languages will

change from time to time. So what you are trying is to make it more accurate or almost equivalent to the original script. So there is nothing wrong in it.

Jaseem: Correct; but unfortunately the thing is, you cant revise the original version of Holy Bible since that is not existing/ available today. You may remember about our discussion on Arabic version of Holy Quran Now you yourself are proving my argument that the original version is 100% required; because the translations will never become exactly correct. But the case of Bible is different. Christians are considering a book as original which itself came after a series of translations . Also, they had revised or changed it many times.

David: As far as I am concerned, I am comfortable with all the versions in English and Malayalam. For me message is important and not the word. Whenever I read the Bible, the holy spirit will talk to me through the Bible.

Once to a Buddhist a disciple asked. What you are telling is not there in "Vedham". Guru told "Please add that to the Vedham"

Another day Disciple asked. What you are telling is not like in the "Vedham". Guru told "Please tear out that pages".

My view is not that much open. But I Believe Bible is written by the Guidance of the Holy Spirit by human beings.

However, it is not a word by word narration of what God is speaking.

You can see many occasions, where God's words are given as such in Bible. But all are not word by word narration.

So please take Bible in that way. May be Muslims considering Qur'an in another way. Please don't compel all to follow the same methodology. So all you assumptions regarding Bible are from ignorance or Partial knowledge.

Jaseem: So (if it is allowed to change the words in Bible), the initial thing you-Christians- should do is to change the Revelation 22:18-19 from the Bible. Because there you can see the following sentences: 18. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Also you told the Holy Spirit guides those people while writing the Bible. So tell me how the contradictions came in Bible?; Whether for each person, the Holy Spirit is different or teaching them different/ contradictory things. Also you yourself told me that while writing replies to me, the Holy Spirit is helping and guiding you. So tell me whether your words can be added to Holy Bible. Thats why many times I reminded you to think or take care while telling anything.

If the Holy Bible is one which is written by Humans by the guidance of Holy Spirit, there will be thousands of new Bibles releasing in every year including yours...!!!. So Think !!

David: In order to prove Jesus is the Son of God, and that name is not just like a name given to Adam David etc, it is more than that, and Jesus is the One and Only Begotten Son of God, and he is also made by the same divine substance, and he is sharing the same authority and glory with the God, there is no Need of Court, Council, Church etc etc.

Just personal reading is enough for that. You will tell like this since you didn't read Bible.

For example see Mathew 1:23 "See, a virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel," which means, "God with us."

This is the sentence from the Angel to Joseph. like that many are there Jaseem. Please read Bible before criticizing. That is the ultimate request I have to you.

It is not a good manner to create your own assumptions and conclusions, without reading the Bible.

Jaseem: These things you have to say the Christian leaders and Priests first. Also if you are sincere in your arguments, you should say David dont believe or agree any creeds came after Jesus lifetime. Also the creeds came in Nicaea council is not acceptable for David. Can you tell this David?. If no; think about your own words, which you had written with the help of Holy Spirit!!.

And if yes, you have to live and believe like the people before Nicaea Council; means you should believe that Jesus is not a God; instead he was only a Prophet of God. (For this, you

should know the History of Christians the History).

. If Holy Spirit is not telling anything, then at least read

At last, let me remind one more thing: if you read the Holy Quran even up to the last, you may not see even a sentence blaming Jesus or saying he had mistaken. Instead Holy Quran clearly says Jesus was a pure Prophet from God; but after him, the Christian people had changed or blurred his teachings.

47. Explicit Contradictions from Bible!!

Jaseem: Once you told that if a person reads the Bible at the first time, he may feel some things as contradictory. So since you are a person who had read it many times, you may not feel those sentences as contradictory. So I request you to tell me about the following sentences from Bible New Testaments. (Many more sentences both from Old and New Testaments are there to discuss; we can discuss those on the way).

1. Once we had discussed about whether Jesus and God are same or difference. In the present day Bible, a lot of sentences say Jesus and God are same; while a lot of other sentences say Jesus and God are not same. So dear David, please seek the help of Holy Spirit and try to avoid this contradiction from Bible. Also give your research results to be published (to revise the existing Bible).

Also try to fix the following contradictions too.

2. What did the centurion say when Jesus dies? (a) Certainly this man was innocent (righteous man) (Luke 23:47) (b) Truly this man was the Son of God (Mark 15:39)

Whether innocent means Son of God? Else whether Holy Spirit had mistaken? Else was Luke or Mark a liar?

Here itself some manuscripts say centurion had said this when he heard Jesus cry; but some manuscripts say he didnt hear Jesus cry. So think about the innocence of Holy Spirit first (if you are sincere).

3. Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?

(a) No (John 3:13) (b) Yes. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven (2 Kings 2:11) Tell me which is correct

5. Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion? (a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42) (b) No. (John 12:27)

6. According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness? (a) If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true (John 5:31) (b) Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true (John 8:14)

7. When Paul saw the light, he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground? (a) Yes (Acts 26:14) (b) No (Acts 9:7)

8. Did the voice spell out on the spot what Pauls duties were to be? (a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18) (b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts9: 7; 22: 10)

9. What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus? (a) He bought a field (Acts 1: 18) (b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)

10. How did Judas die?

(a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5) (b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)

11. Where was Jesus three days after his baptism? (a) After his baptism, the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13) (b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)

David, please tell me which are corrects and who all are liars in all these 11 cases !!.

David: Okay I have answers for all your questions. Sure I will reply for this Email, even if I miss any other mail.

Please tell me what you understood when I am saying Holy Spirit gave the Guidance to them to write the Bible???

The reason behind the writing is Holy Spirit. That's all. I told it is not a word by word narration of the events by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were present at the time of Jesus. So they are giving the narration. They have done it independently at different location without seeing each others narration.

Then too how much similarity is there???

That is because of Holy Spirit.

Jaseem: I didn't hear anywhere that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were present at the time of Jesus. Are you sure about your comments?.

Also I didn't hear anywhere that they had written those independently. As I heard, some of them had written it after studying about others books. Are you sure about your comments?.

David: See Jaseem, we are not concentrating on the word by word meaning of the Bible. I am concentrating only on the message or essence of the Bible, that is God has loved the world so much, so he gave his one and only begotten son. This message will not go if you are translating the Bible into n number of languages.

Jaseem: Then tell me how it changed? How the conflicts had came in the present day Bible? Instead of proper translations, the writers might have used their own words and explanations?; Isn't it?.... That is the problem; there is the problem!!..

Anyhow, I am waiting for the perfect answers/ solutions for the mentioned 11 contradictory sentences.

48. Whether Holy Spirit Misguided (Mislead) the Writers of Bible??

David: I am the person analyzing your arguments and the questions about Bible and Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean that the Holy spirit is giving it word by word. 1. My inspiration and Guidance is Holy Spirit. 2. I got many truth about Bible after starting the discussion, that I believe came from God, since it is beyond my imagination and thinking. 3. Some of the Examples and the answers I have given already, automatically came from my hand with a spirit inside me. This is the way they wrote the Bible.

Jaseem: First you please tell me whether the inspiration by Holy Spirit on the Writers of Bible is same as the inspiration by Holy Spirit upon you. Here 2 possibilities are there: 1. The Holy Spirit may be like a teacher. Means He might tell/ teach all the things correctly. But the writers (like students) may not understand the things in the proper way. They might have misunderstood some of the things. 2. The writers might not have the power to think themselves. And they might have written all the things as they heard from Holy Spirit. Think and reply If your answer is the first, then the motivation and guidance by the Holy Spirit for the writers is like the guidance to you. So the words in the Bible are not the Words of God and your comments also can be added to Bible since those are written by guidance of the Holy Spirit. And if your answer is the 2nd, then there should not be any conflict in the Bible

David: Even though, thousands of people are guided by Holy spirit and are getting new thoughts and messages and meaning, it is not required to add that to the Bible.

We are publishing many books, commentaries etc on Bible and its thoughts every year.

Those who are interested can buy and read those books. Many of that kinds of Books are written with the Guidance of holy spirit. That doesn't mean that those books are equivalent to Bible or Bible is equivalent to that.

More than 90 writers, more than 1500 years, more than 500 locations with the Guidance of the Holy spirit, wrote the Bible. Even though, this is the situation, you see how matching the message is!!!! How matching the narration is!!! Hove touching the Love of God!!!!

To see that you should have an open mind. You are always trying to keep the God, Bible, Jesus etc into your own small squares and circles inside your small mind. That is the problem.

Jaseem, at least you give freedom to God!!!

Jaseem: You told me that "More than 90 writers, more than 1500 years, more than 500 locations with the Guidance of the Holy spirit, wrote the Bible." So why can't now add some more things to it?.... Whether Jesus told to limit the writers to 90?... Whether Jesus told to limit the years to 1500?..... Or whether Holy Spirit lost his power after 1500 years?... David, as per your comments (which I have quoted above), there is no restriction in adding or deleting anything to or from Bible. Also the writers need not be Jesus' disciples (students) or even need not be present at Jesus' time (else how possible the span of 1500 years?). So you should answer my questions; if you are sincere in your words. (The case of Holy Qur'an is different; no one can add or delete anything to or from it; even though he is a disciple of Prophet Muhammad or Prophet himself). Dear David, please think about the facts: if someone see a dream and say that's from God or

Holy Spirit, how can he prove it is correct?; how can you prove it is wrong? And what I understood from your comments is: Bible had written in the same way as your reply to me...... If yes; we can say; Bible is not Holy; Bible is not the words from God; instead it is a simple book written by some of our ancestors which just tell us the History.

David: One thing I want to remind you if you are saying that from ignorance!!!

28 Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

So kindly use your words carefully!!!!

Jaseem: According to my belief, there is only one God; the Almighty.... And I don't blaspheme Him at all. Also, I don't blaspheme even Gabriel, or other angels. .........Anyhow (even though I don't know who is Holy Spirit), here I am not blaspheming Holy Spirit. Instead I blaspheme those people who had changed the Bible according to their own intentions and claimed the guidance of Holy Spirit; which everyone can do.

49. Some References from Bible

David: Please read this!!! Matthew:28 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Any comment on this versus will be greatly appreciated!!!! What I want to show is only after using Book of John and Hebrews, I have proved that you can't prove your arguments using Bible. If I use references of all the Books in Bible, what will happen Jaseem????

Jaseem: Many times you told me that Jesus was unable to do anything because of his Human form and hence he was under control. Also I and you know that Jesus was having only Human form. If somebody is having any authority, he should prove that through his deeds. So tell me the incidents where Jesus used/ applied the authority and power that he got from God. Else at least tell me; where Jesus kept the authority and power that he got from God? So if you use references of all the Books in Bible, you can easily prove that Jesus was not having any authority and hence he is not a God!!.

50.

Is Jesus a God?: Pros and Cons

David: 12 among thousands of Reasons Jesus is God 1. Jesus himself claimed to be God - John 8:24; 8:57-59 (see Exodus 3:14)John 10:33; John14:8-9; In Jn 8:23 Jesus says he is from above and not of this earth. Then in Jn 8:24 he says that we should believe I AM he (worded like in Isaiah 43:10). Jesus follows it up one more time in Jn 8:58 by directly saying before Abraham was, I AM. That is not a grammatically correct phrase if he was only talking about his existence prior to Abraham (which is evidence of Godhood on its own). Instead the grammatical incoherency of this statement proves Jesus was using I AM also as a Name, not only a statement of his presence at the time. In Exodus 3:14: GOD says to Moses tell the people of Israel that I AM has sent me to you. Clearly Jesus calls himself the very exact same Name in Jn 8:58. Jesus takes the Name of God and uses it for himself. No one in the history of the world has claimed to be I AM without claiming to be the God of the bible incarnate. The Jews literally picked up stones to kill him, this proves they understood what he meant. They did not think he is just claiming to be just another child of God like all the Hebrews. The only reason they didnt kill him is because Jesus hid from them. In the book of revelation we are introduced to the name Alpha and Omega, meaning first and last, the connotation being that this Person is timeless, a divine attribute. This name is given to Jesus (Rev1:8, 17, 21:6, 22:13-16) and yet is given to God Almighty (Isa 44:6, 48:12). Jesus claims the same name as God the Father. For more info about Alpha and Omega being a divine name and referring to Jesus. 2. Jesus and the Father are One Mat 11:27; John 10:30,33, 38; John 17:22; Mark 9:37 Jn 10:30 is one of the most clear statements that Jesus is God. Jesus literally, indisputably, and explicitly said I am God by saying I and the Father are One, meaning we are the same. In case some would say Jesus meant one as in we are together on the same mission or of one heart, the Jews understood Jesus as saying He is God. They literally tried to kill him, they said we will kill you because you make yourself God. (John 10:33). They understood this only to mean Jesus makes himself God not just another man. An alternate explanation cannot be given. 3. Jesus is called God Isa 9:6; John 1:1,14; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Col. 1:15, 2:9; Phil 2:5-6; Titus 2:13; Rom 9:5; Heb. 1:3; Heb 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 5:20; In Jn 1:1 Jesus is called God, the Word, the Logos. The Jehovahs Witnesses have rewritten a whole bible translation just to change the passage from its very obvious climax of Jesus the Logos being God to merely Jesus as a god, with a little g. Note to everyone, this is the only translation that says this and its neither correct nor popular (probably because its not correct).

Thomas calls Jesus Lord and God in Jn 20:28, in the Greek its (Lord) (my) (and) (God) (my) or basically my Lord and my God. Some people try to make ridiculous explanations to avoid it, such as Thomas was either wrong or he spoke of two separate entities, Jesus as an earthly Lord, and God as the heavenly father that was up in the sky. Some even say Thomas spoke to Jesus as a man but in him saw God, though Jesus was not divine. Basically some people will say Thomas was speaking to two entities and thereby people gladly avoid the obvious, that Thomas said to HIM, not to THEM, Jesus is my Lord and my God. Col. 2:9 is very clear, the fullness of deity or God-hood/God-ness dwells in Jesus. While we have Gods spirit living in us, we cannot say the fullness of deity dwells in us. God lives in us, but his divine nature is not a part of us; Jesus on the other hand had the fullness of Gods divine nature in his body. Also see Heb 1:3. Paul calls Jesus God and Savior in Titus 2:13. In Heb 1:8 we see the Son of God and God used as synonyms. God the Father calls the Son, God. In Acts 20:28 we are told that the blood of Jesus was Gods own blood. At the end of the day we can squirm and cringe all we want but Christ is God over all, the true God, this the scriptures are clear on (Rom 9:5; 1 John 5:20). 4. Jesus is honored the same as the Father - John 5:23, 15:23, 16:15; Luke 10:16; 1 John 2:23 Often the many types or Unitarians will try to downplay Jesus by saying something to the effect that Jesus never said He was God, only the Son of God, which they mean is a regular man. However, if a man has a son, we expect his son to be a reproduction of the same DNA, have human blood, and be human. If God were to have a Son, would it not mean this Son is also God and of Divine nature? In John 5:23 we see Christ is honored EQUAL to the father. In Luke 10:16 and John 15:23 we see that rejecting Jesus is EQUAL to rejecting God and accepting one is accepting the other. Again in 1 John 2:23 again the two are honored as EQUALS. All of this is not to say that Jesus is a completely different person or a second God, but that He is of the same essence as God the Father and is One with God the Father. Moreover, Jesus often tells that all judgment is given to Him by the father and that the Father will judge no one himself but let Christ do it (John 5:22-23, 27; Mat 16:27, 25:31-34; Acts 10:42, 17:30-31; Rom 2:16; 1 Cor 4:5; 2 Cor 5:10; 2 Tim 4:1; Rev 22:12, 20-21). Yet when we look into the book of Revelation we see judgment done by God (Rev 18:8, 19:1-2, 20:11-12) 5. Jesus created everything - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17 The bible is clear and explicit in saying that Jesus created everything. And all things that were or are or will be came into being through him (and for Him). It is simply childish and intellectually immature to then turn around and say this same Jesus who made everything is himself not God but a mere man or angel. Neither men nor angels can create, they can only transform by taking preexisting atoms and reformulating them into another structure. Creation physical material ex nihilo (out of nothing) is an attribute that only God the Creator has (Isa 40:28) 6. Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17; There have been arguments made that Jesus is either just a man, or an archangel like Michael. Yet we are told that Jesus has existed prior to anything that was created. Men and angels all

had a beginning, and none of them could in any way be preexistent before God created them. Yet Jesus existed before the angels, before the human race, and before any and all created things. This clearly means Jesus, himself, is not a man or an angel but God. 7. Jesus is prayed to - John 14:13-14; Acts 1:24, 7:55-60, 8:22, 8:24; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:4; 2 Cor 12:8; Eph 5:9; James 1:5,7; 1 Jn 5:14-15 Men, angels, or saints are never prayed to in the scriptures. There are plenty of verses that show people praying to Jesus which is only a divine characteristic. One does not ask another for something if he does not have power to respond. I wouldnt ask Obama to give me eternal life, he is a man and cant offer what he doesnt have. Jesus on the other hand offers eternal life and answer to prayer. If you read Jn 14:13-14 you see Jesus telling humanity to pray to him and he is able to do anything in response. This is something only God can offer, a man does not answer prayers. Often people will say that the word Lord (greek: kyrios) can be a title for a human king. Yet as we see in some of the above scriptures this so-called human title of Lord is prayed to and answers prayers (Acts 1:24, 8:24, 2 Cor 12:8; James 1:5,7; Eph 5:9). This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that our Lord Jesus is not merely a human but has power to hear all prayers and answer all prayers, again showing he is God. 8. Jesus is worshiped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9, 28:17; Luke 24:52; John 9:37-38; Acts 13:2 Heb. 1:6; Rev 4:10-11, 5:9-10,11-12,13-14, 15:3-4 When Jesus is led in the desert at tempted by satan Jesus quotes scripture in Matthew 4:10 telling satan that worship belongs to the Lord God. Yet we see the bible filled with scriptures where people fall down and worship Jesus Christ. Did Jesus contradict himself? Did Jesus stop believing the very scripture he quoted and change his mind to allow people to worship him? We have only one of two options: either Jesus is a liar (telling satan only God is to be worshiped yet himself getting worship) or Jesus is God. In Scripture (Acts 10:25-26, Rev 19:10, 22:8-9) we see the proper response of a mere human and then an angel to worship. Jesus did not have this response because Jesus is not mere human or angel, he is God. The book of Revelation shows this more clearly, Jesus is worshiped by all of the heavens! The very same angel that tells John dont worship me, worship God is among the heavenly host who worship and sing praises to Jesus the Lamb. Rev 22:3,4-5 summarizes the grand majesty of the Lamb sitting on the throne of God where all nations and peoples will worship Him. 9. Jesus is the only one who is called Good John 10:11,14; Luke 18:19; John 8:46; Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14; 2 Cor 5:21; Rev 3:7 Jesus at one point says Only God is Good then later says he is the Good Shepherd. Does Jesus contradict himself or lie in one of these statements? The only options we have are (1) both statements are true and Jesus is God or (2) both or one of the statements are not true and Jesus is a liar. People can easily get confused with Luke 18:19 so lets look at it in detail: Jesus did not say dont call me good / stop calling me good / I am not good. Our minds easily can easily assume that & add it but its not in the text. Its not there. We ourselves only imply thats what Jesus meant, that he meant dont. Instead of stopping the rich guy and telling him his

statement was wrong, all Jesus did was ask him question why do you do it? Jesus made an inquiry that was intended to cause him to think about his statement and its natural conclusion. The guy called Jesus merely a human teacher, but he also used this in conjunction with the word Good. When Jesus says Why did you call me good if only God is good he basically tells this rich young ruler that calling someone Good is the same as calling him God, and this guy did call Jesus Good and thus also called him God. Jesus wanted him to understand that. So in essence he said Hey why do you call me this word if its only used on God? Do you get what you are saying I am? He is the Good shepherd, and as Jesus himself said, only God is Good. 10. Jesus is omnipresent - Matt. 18:20; 28:20; 1 Jn 5:14-15; Eph 1:23; Col 3:11 There is a little confusion about how Jesus can be in different places at the same time. Many people would like to point to statements that Jesus was at one point in a particular city or town. Also when he was resurrected the bible says he ascended to the right hand of God. All of this terminology may seem to imply Jesus is like men and angels, confined to only being present in one place at one time. However, the scriptures (as we will see below) show Jesus as being present in all places at the same time. The answer to this is that Jesus was had both a divine nature and a human nature, unmixed, existing in one body (this is called the hypostatic union.) His divine nature fills the earth but his earthly body could only exist in one place at a time. Then when we see Jesus in heaven at the right hand of God, this does not prove he is only in one place (because God the Father being at the left of Christ the Son is also present everywhere else). When Jesus ascended his glorified body went into the heavens but yet his divine nature fills all things and is present everywhere. The bible says that Jesus fills all things (Eph 1:22-23, 4:10). How can a man fill all things? Scripture says Jesus is everywhere that two or three are gathered in his name (Mat 18:20, 28:20), is that possible for a man or angel to do? Never! In fact Jesus Christ also dwells in every believer and this is a core doctrine of the bible (John 14:20,23; Rom 8:10; 2 Cor 13:5; Gal 2:20; Eph 3:17; Col 1:27). Regardless of what strain of Jesus-denying heresy you ascribe to, Jesus is everywhere at the same time, no man angel or created being can do this. Jesus is God who fills all things with his presence. 11. Jesus is omnipotent -Mat 11:27, 24:30-31, 28:18, John 5:25,27, 16:15; Heb 7:25; Acts 10:36; Col 1:17; Phil :9-11; 1 Tim 6:15; Heb 1:3; 1 Pet 3:22; Rev 1:5, 3:14, 19:15-16 There have been plenty of biblical prophets who have done amazing things such as raise people from the dead or bring fire down from heaven. However, not one of them claimed this power as their own or ever said, thought, or hinted that ALL power was given over to them. Jesus on the other hand tells it plainly and clearly that ALL power in the heaven and the earth is his and solely in his control (Mat 11:27, 28:18; John 5:27). In fact, Paul in 1 Tim 6:15 names Jesus Christ, the King of Kings as Sovereign, or all-powerful. The saints in Revelation also call the Lord as Sovereign. Some would say they are praying to God, but they ask the sovereign Lord to start judging, and the bible says Jesus will judge not God. The scriptures are clear Jesus Christ is sovereign, he has all power, authority, dominion, rule, and everlasting supremacy; no created being has equivalent power to him. Jesus even controls the angels, and not merely as a leader of them, but instead they are called his angels; Jesus owns them (Mat 24:30-31).

Jesus also has the power to forgive (Luke 5:20; 7:47-48, 23:42-43, Mark 2:5,10; Mat 26:28). None of the prophets whom God used to display his power had the power to forgive, and the Hebrews clearly knew otherwise: that the power to forgive sins was only in the hands of God Himself (Mark 2:7). They called Jesus a blasphemer because he claimed the power to forgive and this was and is only reserved for God. Either Jesus is a blaspheming liar who made himself to be God, or he is God incarnate who truly has the power to forgive sins. 12. Jesus is omniscient - Acts 1:24, John 1.48, 16:30, 21:17; Col 2:3; Rev 2:23 This is the hardest one to understand at face value because there are a few scriptures in the bible where we see Jesus portraying what looks like a lack of knowledge by asking questions or not knowing the day of His return(Mat 24:36). The first part is easy, Jesus asked questions not because he did not know the answer but to expose mens hearts and use questions to teach. As for the latter issue, Phil 2:7 tells us that Jesus was made in the likeness of men. This teaches that the Son of God existed before he became human, so he obviously is more than just human. From this and other scriptures we see also that Jesus has two natures that are totally separate (hypostatic union). And because his God nature and man nature are disconnected each nature retains its own attributes. That means that in his human nature, Jesus knowledge is restricted to what he has learned as a man, while in his divine nature he is totally omniscient, knowing all things. The Mat 24:36 passage likely refers to the separate human nature of Jesus. (We cannot use this one passage to claim Jesus is not omniscient, for the Holy Spirit is also not mentioned and is also thus would be considered not omniscient). Now the evidence in support of Christs omniscience: Jesus is recorded many times as certainly knowing the future, and while the prophets of old have predicted the future they have always claimed thus says the Lord, Jesus knows from his own self. (Matt 12:40, 16:21, 17:9,11-12,22-23,27, 20:18-19, 21:39, 24:2, 26:2,12,21,31-34,54; Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:32-34, 14:9,18,27-30,42,49, 26:34, 26:46; Luke 9:22,44, 11:30, 12:50, 17:25, 18:31-33, 22: 10-13, 15, 21-22, 32, 34, 37; John 2:19, 3:14, 6:64, 8:14, 10:11,15,17-18, 12:32-34, 13:18-21, 14:19, 15:13, 16:20, 18:4, 18:11, 21:18-19). In addition Jesus knows the inner desires of mens hearts as well as their thoughts or inclinations before they are revealed (Mark 2:8, 3:1-5; Luke 6:8, 9:47; Mat 9:4, 22:18, John 5:25, John 10:13). The scriptures say that only God knows and searches mens hearts, a human cannot do this. In my childhood I remember hearing many debates about whether the devil can read our minds, and the answer always ended up being no, that only God being omniscient can read minds, even satan cannot because he is only a fallen angel. Yet the scriptures say Jesus can read minds and knows hearts of men (John 1:47, 2:24-25, 4:29). Furthermore the bible says Jesus knows everything that everyone has ever thought or done (John 5:22; Acts 1:24; 10:42; 2 Cor 5:10; 2 Tim 4:1; Rev 22:12-13). How is this ever possible for a human being? It is not! Only God can know the hearts of all men and be able to judge every last human being for every thought, intention, deed, and action. No man or angel could know every single humans thought, feeling, contemplation, motive, and deed from the beginning to the end of time; only He who is Alpha and Omega, our Lord and God Jesus knows this.

Jaseem: 24 things to prove/ show Jesus is not a God Here you have given 12 points to show Jesus is a God; but I can give you 24 points to show he was not a God. If you give 1000 points, I can give more than that also. This is not my challenge; but the fact is that. 1. Never Jesus told he is a God; he only told he is a son of God. Jesus is only son of God; but son will never have power/ authority as father. Also, son will be under control of father always; but father will never be controlled by son. Eg:- The authority of Indian President cant be claimed by his son!. David: Here you are questioning the authority of God. Jesus told Father gave all the power about the world to me. Also it is God's wish to give the authority to Jesus and God is no acting according to your wishes. God's Son took the name Jesus in his earthly body. All the limitations you are seeing in Jesus is only because of his earthly body. How God created the Son, from my understanding, God created the divine Son from his own divine flesh. Since Jesus is from the Divine substance with which God is made, we should call Jesus also as God. That is the existence of Son in God. Jaseem: As I know and as you told earlier, 'Jesus' is having no 'sub-forms'. Means he was the Human form representing God. And you agree that Jesus was having much limitation due to his Human form. So it is clear that 'Jesus was not God'. (ie, Jesus was having only one form; but that form was fully limited). Even though you agree all these facts, you are saying: "Jesus told Father gave all the power about the world to him". That is the contradiction......

2. Jesus and the Father are Different. John 1:37. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

John 1:18. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known

Whenever Jesus says about Father, he says He. He never says I or me. It shows Father is not the son, means they (Jesus and God) are different!!. David: I told you many times that Father and Son are different with respect to the world. You cannot claim Son is different than the father. Me and my father are made of the same substance. If my father allows, I have the same authority as my father. Sometimes, he may give more authority also. Jaseem: You are saying about the theory of possibility/ probability in mathematics. But you already agreed that God didn't give much authority to Jesus. Probability is applicable only for 'Future'; but all things we are discussing are 'Past'. So the validity of your comment is expired.

3. Jesus was called as Human/ son of Human many times. I am not giving the list . That is too long. David: As Jesus took the human flesh in Earth, there is nothing wrong in it. That shows God's love towards the earth. Jaseem: I leave the comments for the readers. Let them think..

4. Jesus himself had done nothing. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me- John 5:30. David: Jesus was representing a Son on the earth. So it was Jesus' duty to do so. I can show 1000nds of references showing Jesus' authority as the Son of God. Jaseem: You are saying Jesus was having full authority; but Jesus told he himself had done nothing. Then what is the mean/ use of word authority?

5. Jesus is a son and hence had a starting; so he might not be there at the beginning. Hebrews 1:5. For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, I will be his Father, and he will be my Son?

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all Gods angels worship him. David: You are asking about the Origin and Birth of God. I don't have the answer for that, as I am a worm in front of the almighty God. Jaseem: God had given me the power to think and hence I am a Human. So I have the answer that "God is one who has no starting or ending. So Jesus is not a God". (You have to answer if you claim the faith!!).

6. Jesus told he is not good; and God only is good; means he is not the God. Behold, one came to him and said, Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 19:17He said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.- Matthew-19:16-17 David: Jesus never told like that, That young man was trying to praise Jesus by calling like that and get appreciation from Jesus. That is the reason why Jesus told "why you are calling me good teacher" Jaseem: I leave the comments for the readers.

7. Jesus is only a person near to God; not the God. John 1:18: He is very near to Father. David: Jesus is made up of the same divine substance of God. Hence there is nothing wrong in believing that Jesus is a part of the Godhead. Jaseem: 'Jesus' is the Human form representing God and was born to Mary, who was a woman. But God

(Father) is not the son of a Human. So anyhow he is not made up of same divine substance of God!.

8. Jesus was a Human; so could not be omnipresent. Else why people should come near to Jesus for telling their problems and about their diseases? David: When Jesus took the human flesh, he was just like any human being and hence cannot be omnipresent. However, you can see many occasions like Jesus is walking on water and making the storm calm. Jaseem: David, dont become foolish. Omnipresent dont mean walking on water or making the storm calm. Also occasional omnipresent is not a characteristic of God. Means God is/ should always omnipresent. The second foolishness in the same comment is first you told Jesus in human flesh cant be omnipresent; but later you tried to prove Jesus power with the same nature; ie, in human flesh.

9. Jesus was a Human; so could not be omnipotent. Else why he asked help from God?. David: When Jesus came from the Heaven to earth, he was like a kite on the sky, in which the twain and the control is on the almighty God. Jaseem: Then where Jesus kept the authority and power that he got from God?

10. Jesus was not omniscient. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me- John 5:30. If he was omniscient, he would know everything without/ before hearing. David: With respect to the action on the Earth, Jesus was submissive to the God, or his Godhead itself.

Jaseem: Then where Jesus used/ applied the authority and power that he got from God?

11. No one has ever seen God; but people had seen Jesus since he was not the God. John 1.18. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. Here remind, Jesus had a form of Human which is visible to all. And people had seen him also. David: Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. God took the human flesh for the easy understandability for the human race. Jaseem: If you are correct, the above sentence of Bible will become wrong. And unfortunately (the meaning of your comments is) for understandability for the human race, God had lost all his power.

12. God is someone else other than Jesus. John 1.1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. John 14:1. "Trust in God; trust also in me" says Jesus. Here please note, Jesus had said God not Father. So the sentence trust also in me has the clear meaning that Jesus is someone else other than God. David: You are correct. Jesus was the Son of God. Hence the father is different. Jaseem: Here I have used the word God; not Father. So you yourself agree that God means Father of Jesus; not Jesus. Hence it is self-proved.

13. Jesus is one who had come from God; God is one who had sent Jesus; but Jesus told that he was not sent by himself. John 11: 25. "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ. - John-17:3 37-And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form If they were same, the sentence should be God himself came to us; not by sending by anyone else. But see below Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.- John 8:42. David: Yes correct, God gave his only begotten Son to the earth. Jaseem: The answer is there in above reply. So it is clear that Jesus is not God.

14. God glorifies Jesus; but Jesus doesnt glorify himself; means Jesus is not the God. 54 Jesus replied, If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. David: Jesus can glorify himself. But just for the sake of the people, he is not doing that, instead, saying that the Father is Glorifying. Jaseem's Father is appreciating Jaseem. But Jaseem is not appreciating himself. Hence Jaseem is not Jaseem and Jaseem is not his father's son. Can we say that this argument is correct? Jaseem: No David; in the above sentence Jesus explicitly told that If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing; but you are telling Jesus can glorify himself. Should I believe your words or Jesus words?; both cant possible simultaneously since they are contradictory.

15. Old testaments say there is no other God than Yahweh. You are my witnesses, says Yahweh, With my servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after me. 43:11I myself am Yahweh; and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:10-11 David: Old testaments say there is no other God than Yahweh.

Jesus is the Son or the divine part of the single Godhead. Jaseem: I leave the comments for the readers.

16. God didnt give all his power to Jesus. Else why should he cry when taken for crucifixion?, why should he say he could do nothing?..... David: Jesus is crying because of his human flesh and the pain. What he is saying at that time is, Spirit is ready, but the body is making me cry. Jaseem: Remind David; if there is no human flesh, there is no Jesus. Then where had gone the authority and power of Jesus?

17. Jesus never asked/ taken any help from himself; but asked help from God/ Father. When Jesus was taken for crucifixion he cried: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Some of them who stood there, when they heard it, said, This man is calling Elijah.- Matthew-27:46-47 If Jesus was having both the natures of Human and God, that Human could take the help from that God. David: As he was representing a submissive Son of God on the earth, there is nothing wrong in that. Jaseem: Many times you told me that 'Jesus is simultaneously a Human and a God'. That's why I asked this question. My question is: "if Jesus was a God, then instead of asking help from Father, why couldn't 'Human Jesus' ask help from 'Godly Jesus' since Jesus was near than Father?"

18. Many times, instead of Father, the word God has been used in bible; but never used the word God instead of Jesus or son of God. David: Yes many references are there. I have already sent one to you. Thomas is calling Jesus, my lord and my God. John 20:28

(Colossians 1:15-17) Jaseem: That is not acceptable for me since I believe in a 'Bible' which is the words from God; or at least should come through the mouth of a Prophet like Jesus. I thought Christians also believe that 'Holy Bible contains the words from either God or Jesus'. But here you have referred the words of Thomas, who has no authenticity to Judge or comment.

19. Jesus told he is lower than John; then how can he become a God? Mathew 11:11: Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist. David: This shows you didn't read Bible properly. What John saying is I am nothing, Jesus is everything, and I am not good to remove his chapels from his leg. Then why Jesus told like this? Jesus knows he is not from the earth and he is from the Heaven. That is why Jesus is telling like that. Consider Jaseem got first place in essay writing in whole Kerala and I got first place in Pathanamthitta District. So in an appreciation meeting, you can tell, David is the best essay writer in Pathanamthitta District. I have already sent this explanation to you using set theory. This clearly indicating that you are simply arguing without reading anything from me. Jaseem: If I am belonging to Pathanamthitta District, then I can't tell like that. Remember that Jesus was also born to a Woman, Mary. So your comments are unfitting here.

20. Jesus had no power to judge. For God didnt send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.- John 3:17 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me- John 5:30. David: Jesus is judging in accordance with the God's law. He has the Power, but God is the decision maker.

Jaseem: Our discussions is 'Whether Jesus was a God or not'!!!. Your comments (decision maker is God; but not Jesus) clearly mean that Jesus is not a God!!!. Think yourself.

21. Jesus told those who believe in him can do greater works than him. Can anybody do greater works than God? Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.- John 14: 12 David: Jesus was referring to the miracles that he had done on the earth in Human flesh. He was representing a pure human being and pure God at the same time. Jesus was not referring to the work of God. Jaseem: As per today's Christian belief, believing Jesus as a simple Human/ magician is having no significance and by believing so no one will enter into faith. So the sentence '..who believe in him ..' clearly means (as per today's Christian belief) the faith in Jesus' Godly nature. And hence the word 'work' is referring 'work of God'. Also I remind you; the miracles shown by Jesus, are only the proofs you Christians are giving for his Godly nature. Now you are saying those miracles were not works of God; means the curing/ healing of diseases, giving life to dead bodies etc. were not works of God............. O' David, think what you are saying.........

22. The word God doesnt include Jesus. John 14:1. "Trust in God; trust also in me" says Jesus. Here please note, Jesus had said God not Father. So the sentence trust also in me has the clear meaning that Jesus is someone other than God. David: Already answered.

23. Jesus was under control of another Power. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.- John 8:42.

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me- John 5:30. When Jesus was taken for crucifixion he cried: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Some of them who stood there, when they heard it, said, This man is calling Elijah.- Matthew-27:46-47 If Jesus was having both the natures of Human and God, that Human could take the help from that God. Also the above sentence clearly means that somebody is there above Jesus, who is God. If they both are having same power and position, then how One can become Others God? David: As a Submissive Son of God on the earth, Jesus should be under the control of God. A man going to the space should be under the control from Earth, since he is in a new place. Jaseem: Then what is the significance of saying 'God had given all the power and authority to Jesus'? David, please try to show some maturity while saying/ writing.

24. Once Jesus denied a Woman from asking his help; and said he cant help her. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."- Mathew15:24. David: This is a pure self goal for you. Did you read the rest of the portion? Here Jesus was testing that lady to check whether she is believing him as the God of all human beings or only the God and Messiah of the Jews. She won in that faith test and she understood that Jesus is the God for all the human beings. Thus Jesus healed the Son of that lady. Jesus never told I can't help her. Also, Jesus helped her with the request. This is the problem of arguing about Bible without reading the Bible. You are merely copying some websites from the internet and some of the teachings from your teachers. Please read the Bible. That is the invitation I am giving for you. Then comment on your doubts. Jaseem: If you believe this incident as a testing of faith, then we will become compelled to believe Jesus as a liar. The reason is even after he was having the power and authority to help; if he denies the help by words, then what is that if not a lie?

Also if God loves the people He should never say any word like this. As per Islamic belief, if we go one meter towards God, He will come more than it towards us; if we walk towards God, He will run towards us. That's the real love. Also if Jesus told or mentioned anything like I was sent only to believers; we can think it like a testing faith. But instead he told I was sent only to Israel people. What is the faith testing in this sentence? If this was really a testing, then the proper answer (that Woman should give) is I am also belonging to Israel.

Now Think Is Jesus a God or not???????