Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad?

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.
com
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/warrior-prophet-moses-or...
Robert Spencer | Pamela Geller | Bat Ye'or | Brigitte Gabriel | Daniel Pipes | Debbie Schlussel | Walid Shoebat | Joe Kaufman
| Wafa Sultan | Geert Wilders | The Nuclear Card Home About Archive Contact Send Us a Tip Site Map Register
Enter your search keywords here...
SUBSCRIBE TO THE RSS FEED SUBSCRIBE TO THE FEED VIA E-MAIL Anti-Loons Feature Loon Flashback Loon Media Loon People Loon Politics Loon Sites
Categorized | Feature, Loon Politics

Tags | Bible, Civilians, Jihad, Moses, Muhammad, non-combatants, Quran, Robert Spencer, Terrorism, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), the Prophet Muhammad
Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad?

Posted on 06 March 2011 by Danios
1 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com
This article is part 1 of LoonWatchs Understanding Jihad Series.
The video of anti-Muslim bigots jeering at mosque-goers in Orange County has now gone viral. Amongst those who sponsored the hateful event were two extremist Zionist Jews, namely Pamela Geller and Rabbi David Eliezrie. It was also sponsored by ACT! for America, a fervently pro-Israeli group with heavy Christian Zionist overtones. The link between Zionism and Islamophobia is well-established. As can be seen from the video, one of the principal ways these Israeli-rsters try to hurt Muslims is by insulting Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. In particular, they criticize Muhammad as being warlike and violent. The fact that their religious founder was belligerent explains why Muslims today are, or so the argument goes. Yet, Mosesthe prophet of Judaism and the principal gure of the religionwas far more warlike and violent than Muhammad. We know this from the Hebrew Bible, which is considered Judaisms most sacred scripture and respected by Christians as the Old Testament. (The Biblical verses we will examine will also show us why the Bible is far more violent than the Quran.) Could the violent nature of Moses explain the belligerence of the modern day state of Israel and its supporters? According to the Bible, a Jewish prophet by the name of Moses arose in Egypt. He liberated his people from bondage, and together they ed Egypt to the promised land. The promised land was a place called Canaan (Palestine). This journey from Egypt to Canaan was known as the Exodus. It might help to glance at a map:
2 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
So the Hebrews ed Egypt and traveled to Canaan. But they hit a small snag. There were already people living in Canaan. These natives are referred to in the Bible as The Seven Nations. (Not to be a stickler, but there were actually more than seven nations.) Here is what the tribes looked like before the Israelites arrived:
3 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
To resolve this dilemma, God ordered the Israelites to exterminate all the inhabitants of Canaan (men, women, and children) and to take their land. The God of the Bible commanded Moses and his followers: Deuteronomy 20:17 You must utterly destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. The God of the Bible threatened the people of Palestine/Canaan with catastrophe (nakba): Exodus 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestine. 15: 15 Then, the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the might men of Moab, trembling shall take hold on them, all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. 15:16 Terror and dread shall fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they shall be as still as a stone; till your people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which you have purchased. 15:17 You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of your inheritance.
4 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
In other words, God purchased the land that the natives lived on, and He would give it as inheritance to the Israelite conquerors. It should be clear that the words all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away refers to genocide, a point which we will subsequently be made clearer. The Aradites were one group of peoples that inhabited Canaan, the land which the God of Israel had promised the Israelites. The Israelites marched towards them: Numbers 33:40 At that time the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev in the land of Canaan, heard that the people of Israel were approaching his land. One Biblical commentary explains that the Aradite king heard of the coming of the children of Israel, towards the land of Canaan, in order to possess it, and he came out and fought with them. The king had some initial success: 21:1 He attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. Ancient Israel responded with even more brutality than the modern day state of Israel does: 21:2 Then Israel made this vow to the LORD: If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities. 21:3 The LORD heard the voice of Israel and delivered up the Canaanites; then they utterly destroyed them and their cities. Thus the name of the place was called Hormah [Utter Destruction]. The word Hormah literally translates to Ban, because it means that there is a ban on all living things. As we shall see, the Israelites slaughtered men, women, children, cattle, sheep, donkeys, and anything that breathed. The word Hormah is often translated by Biblical commentators as Utter Destruction. After annihilating the Aradites, Moses and the Israelites then turned their attention to the Amorites. The God of the Bible commanded the faithful to conquer the Amorite land of Heshbon: Deuteronomy 2:24 Then the LORD said, Now get moving! Cross the Arnon Gorge. Look, I will hand over to you Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, and I will give you his land. Attack him and begin to occupy the land. 2:25 This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you. The Israelites requested King Sihon to pass through his land. Sihon naturally refused, as he had heard reports of what the Israelites had done to his neighbors. When Sihon refused the request, the order was given to attack him: 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the Lord your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
5 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
2:31 The Lord said to me, See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land. Of course, every nation-state has a right to deny entry of foreigners into its territory. If, for example, the Iranian army requested permission to pass through Israel, would Iran have justication to attack Israel if the request was refused? King Sihons denial of the request is all the more reasonable when we consider that (1) the king knew that the Israelites were bent on conquering his land, and (2) the peoples of that region had hear[d] reports of you [Israelites] that made them tremble and be in anguish. In any case, after furnishing themselves with a moral justication to invade Heshbon, Moses and the Israelites proceeded to kill the king of Heshbon and all his people: 2:33 The Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 2:34 At that time we took all his cities and completely destroyed themmen, women and children. We left no survivors. 2:35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. Multiple cities and their populations were completely annihilated: 2:36 From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the city in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one city was too strong for us. The Lord our God gave us all of them. King Sihon and his people, the Amorites of Heshbon, were ethnically cleansed. The Israelites then moved on to King Og and his people, the Amorites of Bashan. The God of the Bible commanded the Israelites to do to him what you did to Sihon, king of the Amorites, i.e. annihilate them: Numbers 21:34 The LORD said to Moses, Do not be afraid of Og, for I have handed him over to you, with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon, king of the Amorites who reigned in Heshbon. 21:35 So they killed him and his sons and all his people, until there was none left to him alive, and they possessed his land. Moses and the Israelites then massacred the inhabitants of sixty different cities: Deuteronomy 3:3 So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 3:4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from themthe whole region of Argob, Ogs kingdom in Bashan. 3:5 All these cities were fortied with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages.
6 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
3:6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every citymen, women and children. 3:7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves. In fact, the Bible repeatedly sanctions the genocide of natives: 20:16 In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 20:17 You must utterly destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. The next verse explains why you must utterly destroy them: 20:18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God. The Bible advocates genocide of the adherents of other religions, due to the fear that the believers may convert. This becomes very clear when we consider the way Moses and the God of the Bible deal with the Mobaites and Midianites. Some women from the Moabites and Midianites partook in consensual sexual relations with Israelite men. After cohabitating with idolatrous women, the Israelite men were affected by the Moabite and Midianite religion and culture. Eventually, these men started worshiping Baal Peor, the local god of the Moabites and Midianites. This earned the Israelites the wrath of God: Numbers 25:1 While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 25:2 who invited them to the sacrices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. 25:3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the Lords anger burned against them. God then sent a plague down upon the people of Israel, which was only lifted after one of the Israelites murdered a Midianite woman: 25:6 Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 25:7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 25:8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of themthrough the Israelite and into the womans body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped;
7 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
25:9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000. 25:10 The Lord said to Moses, 25:11 Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them. 25:12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 25:13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites. In verse 25:15, we learn that Cozbi was the name of the Midianite woman who was murdered. This honor killing placated Gods anger, and God blessed the killer and his descendants with a covenant of lasting priesthood. God did, however, command Moses and the Israelites to massacre the Midianites: 25:16 The Lord said to Moses, 25:17 Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 25:18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor. The above verse makes it clear why God commanded Moses and the Israelites to kill the Midianites: because of the affair of Peor (i.e. the idolatrous women having consensual sexual relations with the Israelite men and the subsequent idol worship) and Cozbi (the woman who had sexual relations with an Israelite man). And so God commanded Moses to attack the Midianites: 31:1 The Lord said to Moses, 31:2 Avenge the people of Israel of the Midianites. After that, you will be gathered to your people. 31:3 So Moses said to the people, Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the Lords vengeance on them. 31:4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel. And: 31:7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 31:8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Rebathe ve kings of Midian. They
8 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 31:9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, ocks and goods as plunder. 31:10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 31:11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 31:12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest The Jewish followers of Moses killed every man, and took the women and children as slaves. They then returned to Moses, but he became upset at them for not killing the women and children as well. Only the young virgins t to be sex slaves were to be kept alive: 31: 14 Moses was angry with the ofcers of the armythe commanders of thousands and commanders of hundredswho returned from the battle. 31:15 Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. 31:16 They were the ones who followed Balaams advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lords people. 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 31:18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Then God discusses how to divide up the spoils of war: 31:25 The Lord said to Moses, 31:26: You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 31:27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 31:28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every ve hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. This last verse seems to justify human sacrices to God as tribute for the Lord. The next few verses bear this out: 31:32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 31:33 72,000 cattle, 31:34 61,000 donkeys
9 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
31:35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man. 31:36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was: 337,500 sheep, 31:37 of which the tribute for the Lord was 675; 31:38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72; 31:39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61; 31:40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the Lord was 32. As for the Moabites, they avoided the wrath of Israel for a short period of time before they were ultimately decimated. That task was carried out by David, one of Moses divinely chosen successors (and a prophet of Judaism in his own right). The faithful massacred two-thirds of the Moabites and took the remaining one-third as dhimmis perpetual serfs: 2 Samuel 8:2 David also conquered the land of Moab. He made the people lie down on the ground in a row, and he measured them off in groups with a length of rope. He measured off two groups to be executed for every one group to be spared. The Moabites who were spared became Davids subjects and paid him tribute money. Some Biblical commentaries argue that two-thirds of the Moabite population was slaughtered while others argue that only the soldiers were. In any case, the Moabites were subjected to dhimmitude perpetual serfdom and were forced to pay jizya tribute. But eventually the Moabites revolted against this tributary tax: 2 Kings 3:4 King Mesha of Moab was a sheep breeder. He used to pay the king of Israel an annual tribute of 100,000 lambs and the wool of 100,000 rams. 3:5 But after Ahab died, the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. The Israelites, with the blessing of Elisha (another Jewish prophet), mobilized three large armies to stamp out the rebellion. The people of Moab attempted to defend themselves: 3:21 Now all the Moabites had heard that the three armies had come to ght against them; so every man, young and old, who could bear arms was called up and stationed on the border. The Moabites were vanquished and slaughtered: 3:24 The Israelites invaded the land and slaughtered the Moabites. 3:25 They destroyed the towns, and each man threw a stone on every good eld until it was covered. They stopped up all the springs and cut down every good tree. Only [the fortress of] Kir Hareseth was left with its stones in place, but men armed with slings surrounded it and attacked it as well. The Israelites then called off the siege with the result that a few Moabites survived. The Moabites
10 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
were nally destroyed altogether in 2 Chronicles 20, although the actual narration is a bit difcult to follow. The Biblical Moses was thus responsible for the massacre and genocide of several populations. These included the people of Arad, Heshbon (and her surrounding cities), Bashan (including at least sixty cities), and the Midianites. Before he passed away, Moses was very disappointed that he couldnt complete the ethnic cleansing of the land. He wanted to take part in the genocide of those living past the Jordan: 3:23 At that time I [Moses] pleaded with the Lord: 3:24 O Sovereign Lord, you have begun to show to your servant your greatness and your strong hand. For what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do the deeds and mighty works you do? 3:25 Let me go over and see the good land beyond the Jordanthat ne hill country and Lebanon. God rejected Moses plea and declared: 3:28 But commission Joshua, and encourage and strengthen him, for he will lead this people across and will cause them to inherit the land that you will see. And so, the job of genocide was divinely passed on from Moses to his successor, Joshua. Addendum I: The wars of Muhammad will be addressed in a subsequent part of the Understanding Jihad Series, which will directly refute chapter 1 (Muhammad: Prophet of War) of Robert Spencers book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). However, it would be helpful to point out the most striking difference between Moses and Muhammad in this regard. Moses targeted and killed civilianswomen, children, babies, and the inrm elderly. Moses ordered his soldiers: Kill all the boys[,] and kill every woman (Numbers 31:17), an order which is an oft-repeated imperative in the Bible. Meanwhile, Muhammad explicitly forbade targeting civilians on numerous occasions, saying: Do not kill an inrm old man, an infant, a child, or a woman. (Sunan Abu Dawood, book 14, #2608) Addendum II: It could be argued that the life and wars of Moses are of questionable historicity, and that secular scholarship would doubt the accuracy of Jewish scriptural sources. Yet, this argument is nullied by the fact that the life and wars of Muhammad are similarly subject to questionable historicity. The primary sources of Muhammads life and wars come almost exclusively from the Islamic scriptural sources and tradition, namely (1) casual allusions in the Quran and (2) oral traditions. More neutral non-Muslim sources from the seventh century are scant, and at most conrm the existence of Muhammad and very basic data. Writes Professor Solomon Alexander Nigosian on p.6 of Islam: Its
11 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
History, Teaching, and Practices: The attempt to separate the historical from the unhistorical elements in the available sources has yielded few, if any, positive results regarding the gure of Muhammad or the role he played in Islam. The predicament faced by modern scholars is perhaps best stated by Harald Motzki: At present, the study of Muhammad, the founder of the Muslim community, is obviously caught in a dilemma. On the one hand, it is not possible to write a historical biography of the Prophet without being accused of using the sources uncritically, while on the other hand, when using the sources critically, it is simply not possible to write such a biography. In order to construct narratives of Muhammads wars, one must rely on the Islamic scriptural sources and tradition (the same ones which Islamophobes use to criticize Islam). It seems only reasonable and fair then to compare Muhammad with the Moses derived from the Jewish scriptural sources and tradition. And in this light, Moses does not stack up well against Muhammad. Addendum III: Those who are familiar with my writing know very well that the intent here is not at all to bash Moses or Judaism, but rather to give the haters a taste of their own medicine in order that they realize the error in their ways. In particular, the goal is to show that the absurd standard Islam is held toor anything related to Islam (Muhammad, Allah, the Quran, Sharia, Muslims, Muslim-majority countries, etc.)is unfair, a fact that becomes painfully obvious when applied in a similar way to a Jewish/Christian/ analogue. Addendum IV: Many of the counter-arguments raised by our opponents will be addressed in further editions of this series. I initially had planned on releasing the entire Understanding Jihad Series as one mega-article. Having realized that this would be well over one hundred pages long, I decided to heed the advice of LW readers who requested that my articles be split into parts so as to be easier to digest. This decision comes with the regret that many of my responses to the trite counter-arguments I know the Islam-bashers are itching to use will be published at a later date. These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
12 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
226 Comments For This Post

1. TheDemiprist Says:
March 6th, 2011 at 6:22 am
It could also be argued that Muhammad and Muslims learned from the best (violent Jews and Christians in Arabia) with the early development of Islam. So, its really not their own fault that others were being rude or worse towards the youngest Abrahamic faith on the bloc.
2.
IbnAbuTalib Says:
Muhammad(saw) is the fulllment of the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18:18. As such, he was very much like Moses(as).
3.
Mosizzle Says:
Good article but the comparison with the Prophet Muhammad should be merged with this article. It just makes sense. Also, it should be said that the Prophet Moses actions were justied at the time, otherwise this might upset the Jewish readers
4.
TheDemiprist Says:
I lean towards the secular historian side and I dont question the historicity of Muhammad at all. I think the evidence is more abundant and convincing for him than the likes of Jesus/Isa but thats just me and it isnt based on any sort of bigotry against Christians, Muslims, or Jewish
13 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Christians who are actually considered apostates.
5.
mindy1 Says:
Back then, ancient biblical prophets were often war-like-it was almost a matter of survival. Not trying to justify anything, but that is how it was back then. And yes, I think the same about Mohammed. you cant use moderrn standards to justify ancient thinking
6.
Anj Says:
As a Muslim you are taught early on to repect all the prophets that includes Jesus and Moses. This article makes me a bit uncomfortable in the sense that you are comparing them and to a degree judging them. For me they both carried out Allah(swt) commands to the letter. Who are we to judge? Peace be upon all of them and may Allah(swt) be pleased with their efforts.
7.
Dawood Says:
Agreed Mindy I think thats the point Danios was making! Along with the uneven critique of such practices as is relates to Islam but not other faith traditions Shalom Aleichem!
8.
TheDemiprist Says:
Anj, Danios makes it clear that the intent here is not at all to bash Moses or Judaism, but rather to give the haters a taste of their own medicine in order that they realize the error in their ways. Theres no real judgment going on here besides showing the Islamophobes their errors in their arguments. No harm done, all is good.
9.
Anj Says:
14 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Danios, publish your works man! I for one would buy your book!
10. Anj
Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

The Prophets were all men, not superhuman beings. They all made mistakes, and were prone to human failings like everyone else. Some Muslims make the mistake of revering the Prophets to the pont where they cannot admit they ever put a foot wrong. That is a mistake that Prophet Mohammed warned against. He often described himself as a mere man with faults, and warned his followers not to do to him what the Christians did to Jesus. One of the reasons making images of Prophets is forbidden is precisely for this reason. Images of loved ones, lead to devotion, then worhsip, (*instead of worshipping God you worship the image or Prophet) which leads to idolatory. It is not showing disrespect to show that the Prophets were human beings, infalliable, with all the weaknesses that all humans have, not angels. Angels are blameless because they do what the Almighty says. They dont have freedom of choice like us mere mortals. Why did the Almighty not send angels to guide us? Its because we cannot be like them, perfect and free from sin. We have to strive and work and ght temptatiion, and control feelings, and live a moral life. I dont have the verse to hand, where God tell us that was was allowed before (to previous Prophets) is not for us to judge. That is very clear proof, that the previous Prophets were allowed things that we are not to do or judge. We are however free to discuss and debate, and call a spade a spade. That is not showing disprespect. In fact, not doing so would be the rst step to deifying, In fact if you read Al Quran, you will note the Prophet by God, for his own mistakes. (Sura ! 80.1) $" '!&% /.$, 210 4% $, Danios, Great work as usual. There is one thing worth mentioning where Christian right wing fabrications are concerned, and that is they claim to follow a sinless deity (Jesus) but they believe Jesus is God, which means, Jesus by ordered Moses and the Prophets to slaughter, kill, and comit genocide. In this respect, they are hypocritical. If Jesus is God, the God of the Old Testament as they believe, how can they criticise
15 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
Mohammed for all the things they do accuse him of? Maybe you could write something about this, for the likes of Brigette Gabriel, and other Christian hyprocrites, who is always claiming the God of Islam is violent.
11.
Anj Says:
Hi BMD, Im not sure what gave you the impression that I/we revere prophets. Respect yes, revere no. Agreed there are ayats and hadiths describing the prophet muhammed(pbuh) as a man. As abu bakr(ra) said after the death of the prophet those who followed the prophet know that he was a man and is now dead. Those who revere allah(swt) know that he is everlasting. Agree about the pictures thing. Agree about the angels thing and the rest! Hey its all good
12.
rambo Says:
Back then, ancient biblical prophets were often war-like-it was almost a matter of survival i quote Deuteronomy 1:34 When Yahweh heard what you said, he was angry and solemnly swore: 35 Not a man of this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your forefathers, 36 except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land he set his feet on, because he followed Yahweh wholeheartedly. 37 Because of you Yahweh became angry with me also and said, You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the LITTLE ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know GOOD FROM BADthey will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. Here is biblical recognition that children are innocents, who dont know the difference in good and evil. SO WHAT WAS THE AUTHOUR OF VERSE 39 THINKING? only JEWISH KIDS do not YET knOw GooD fRoM BaD? THE lord sez This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel
16 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (I Sam 15.2f) BUT THE childrEN dont know different betWEEN good n Evil.
13.
Daniel Says:
Ive long tried to make similar arguments on forums, but it usually falls on deaf ears. Its usually a question of (against the Torah, BTW) of using mixed weights and measuresI.e., using one standard to vilify Muhammad on the one hand, and another to justify Moses on the other. Also, concerning historicity: if, as Muslims claim, the Bible is corrupted, it is not disrespectful to a prophet to say see these horrible lies written about the prophets in the Biblein that theyre too horrible to ever imagine God ordering. The Quranic accounts of Moses do not record genocide in the conquest of Canaan. Also, when we hold us heroes and celebrate their deeds (whether it be Samson to late bronze age suicide bomber or Joshua the ethnic cleanser) we are showing that we support such actionseven if they never took place. In other words, we believe that genocide (for example) can, under certain circumstances, be justied. Thats a pretty horrible belief for any religion.
14.
DisillusionedCitizen Says:
Im sorry, but I dont nd this article to be very helpful or conducive to reducing Islamophobia in the West. Danios states that this article is written in spite of what Islam teaches us about the Prophet Moses. We, as Muslims, deny that Moses was ruthless or inhumane in his treatment of people. For us to stoop to the level of the Islamophobes and give them a taste of their own medicine makes us not as bad as them, but worse. We decry the Islamophobes for their maligning our Prophet and generalizing a whole population, and yet I can see that some of you would not be below doing the same to them. Do not cry Injustice! when you are oppressed, if youre going to do the same thing even while being oppressed. What if we werent being bashed by Islamophobes? Would this article be ne then? If its not ne when we as Muslims are not being attacked, then why should it be ne in other occasions? For us to come to the level of the Islamophobes is to lose. Yes, I understand Muslims are angry, and they have every right to be. But we do not have the right to use the same tactics as the enemy. I categorically (yes, I know. Who the heck am I to do so?) condemn this article as a
17 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Muslim. I expected better from you, Danios.
15.
Just to add to what I said in my previous comment, by going the Yeah, but your religion does the same! lends credence to the Islamophobic idea that Islam and its Prophet are inherently violent. By you saying, So is Judaism you are accepting the argument that Islam is too. Who is the winner in this argument? Nobody everything comes down into ruins. A few words of wisdom: Quran, Surah Al-Anam: 108. Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did. Bible, 1 Peter 3:9. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
16.
Imad Says:
I dont think this article helps. It reminds me to much of the jesus vs Mohammad sections in the politically incorrect guide to islam by Spencer. Plus, nobody Rly said moses is better then Mohammad this article sounds a lot like ti quoque
17.
Jack Says:
@DisillusionedCitizen; the argument as I see it isnt Yeah, but your religion is violent too but: Well, by that same standard, you should denounce your religion as violent too (and then some). Remember: by that same standard. Thats the point of the argument: it draws attention to the fact that islamophobes apply different standards when it comes to evaluating Muhammad and Moses. They say Muhammad was a tyrannical war-monger. Okay, so why wont you apply the same standards to Moses then? Take a look at his life. Take a look at what he did. And this is supposed to be a role model for Jews.
18 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
If youd apply Islamophobic logic to Judaism, then it follows from that logic that for a Jew to be true to his religion, he would have to act as a murderous religious fanatic. He wold have to go around and kill his fellow Jews for committing idolatry, and go to Palestine and kill all the inhabitants so as to secure the land for the Jews. Heres the point: if Islamophobes (or people who are sympathetic to their kind of thinking, but still on the fence) wont apply that logic to Judaism, because they know that most Jews dont treat their religion that way, than how come theyre so eager to apply it to Muslims and Islam? Theres a double standard at work here. And Danios article exposes it very clearly.
18.
JN Says:
I think the point that should be made has less to do with the morality of Moses behavior or Prophet Muhammads, for that matter and more to do with the relevance, or lack of relevance, that these scriptural examples have with respect to how people behave in the modern world. While it is good for rabid Islamophobes to get a taste of their own medicine once in awhile, we should bear in mind that they are not the only readers, and that persuading reasonable, even-tempered onlookers is the primary goal. The real problem is that the general public who know next to nothing about Islam are easily fooled by the disingenuous arguments of bigots and morons. We need to convince regular people to see hatemongers like Spencer and Geller for what they are, so that their disgusting ideas will be thrown into the social trash bin alongside those of anti-Semites and white supremacists. While the content of this article is solid, Im not sure that the tone is helpful. I think it should be made clear to readers from the very beginning that Loonwatch does not mean to demonize Judaism or Christianity, nor does it buy into the foolish argument that these scriptural atrocities explain peoples behavior in the 21st century. The idea should not even be taken seriously, and all these comparisons should be used for is to make the point that the same argument made against Muslims using the Quran can easily be made for Jews and Christians with the Bible. Nothing more, nothing less. As fun as it may be to give the Islamophobes an intellectual black eye like this, lets not do it at the expense of the people whose minds we actually stand a chance of changing.
19. Imad
Nur Alia Says:

I think it is helpful, because it gives those who have to combat the rhetoric of Islamophobes like Spencer a compilation sourse.
19 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
I think the point of the article is 2 fold here. It counters some Zionist posistion that they are the indiginous people of that area, and have a ancestrial right to destroy other people, thier houses, and thier livelyhoods for thier right to return to it. This kind of article rebutts it fully in that the land was aquired through continuous genocide and ethnic cleansing, just the same as today. The difference being, the world will know what the oppressors, and they need permission in the form of timid phrases like we are disappointed that by blind supporters. It also shows something that is NOT, and has never been condoned in Islam. It is a form of terrorism to imtimidate others by creating a ruthless repuation. Repeatedly, in this article, the Israelis tried to intimidate the people before they fought them by using thier ruthless history of battle of total destruction. When it didnt workthe Israelis totally destroyed the people, women, childreneverything without mercy. We have modern history of people captulating when civilians were indescriminatly targeted in rebombings and using horrid mass destruction weapons on citieswithout mercy.
20.
JN Says:
I know Im channeling Reza Aslan a bit in that second paragraph, but I think he hit the nail on the head in that instance.
21.

Disillusioned citizen We, as Muslims, deny that Moses was ruthless or inhumane in his treatment of people. For us to stoop to the level of the Islamophobes and give them a taste of their own medicine Do we? Why then were we told not to judge them and the nations before them? You have to be ruthless to enemies. Why does the death penalty exist for murder? That is inhumane and ruthless, are you saying judges are being ruthless and inhumane to those who are given the death sentence? We do what the Prophets taught. We do not deny, that the Prophets had to be ruthless against enemies and threats. It was do or die. Daniel
20 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Also, concerning historicity: if, as Muslims claim, the Bible is corrupted, it is not disrespectful to a prophet to say see these horrible lies written about the prophets in the Biblein that theyre too horrible to ever imagine God ordering. The Quranic accounts of Moses do not record genocide in the conquest of Canaan. We do not know which parts of the Bible are corrupted. The Quran does not tell us that the verses we not like or those deemed as violent are the ones that are corrupted. How do you know those are the corrupted verses when the Quran does not tell us so? That is for those who follow that religion to decide, and let God judge them accordingly. The Torah does record that the Canaanaites had gone astray into idolatry. This is not too different to what Prophet Mohammed was up against. The exact same argument can be made about the Prophet and the Quraysh idolators. In the end it came to battle. The survival of the faith was at stake. The QUrash were idolators who wanted to destroy Islam. The canaanaites would have done the same to the faith given to the Israleites, and that is what Joshua ben Noon was up against. At that time they were the only believers. The Quran doesnt record the genocide of Moses, however it does tell us in the opening verses that youre not a believer if you dont believe in the previous Books. Your too horrible to contemplate doesnt make sense. Does it make sense that God destroyed humanity with the Flood in Prophet Noohs time? An atheist would ask, what kind of a God would ask a man (Abraham) to sacrice his son? Abraham was ready to sacrice his son on Gods command. What would you say to that? Those who Buddhists or atheists would think this crazy and cruel. If a test of faith, includes sacricing your own son, how much more less controversial is killing those who oppose or want to kill the faith. An atheist could also ask, What kind of a God would ask male children to go through the pain of circumcision? Should we stop circumcising male children, because it is a horrible practice according to some people?
22.

Disillusioned Citizen Im sorry, but I dont nd this article to be very helpful or conducive to reducing Islamophobia in the West. I totally disagree. Fighting Islamophobia should not be about being economical with facts and truth nor denying what happened, or what is allowed or what was allowed at one time. Thats just riduculous. I dont want history rewritten, just to satisy the sensiblities of the politically correct.
21 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
Whether you like it or not, ALL the Prophets were in a do or die situation. War and killings, and making decisions that the ordinary man cant make was the norm for them. Lets not be politically correct here. An enemy who comes to kill you must be struck down. That has been the rule since the dawn of time, and it is the rule today. Do you believe in this or not? because if you dont then there is no point taking this further. One of the reasons Muslims are lousy at ghting islamophobia is because they cannot make these comparisons in an honest manner. They like to pretend that the Prophets were pefect men, when the Prophets themselves called themselves imperfect.
23.
Mosizzle Says:
I think JN explains it well. Loonwatch should make the point of the article clear at the start because many Islamophobes will be unable to read it all to the bottom (cos theyre lazy) and interpret the article incorrectly instead.
24. Danios:
NassirH Says:
Great article, as always, but perhaps the tone could be tiny bit more friendly. My suggestions are the following: God ordered the Israelites to exterminate all the inhabitants of Canaan (men, women, and children) and to steal their land. Should be: God ordered the Israelites to exterminate all the inhabitants of Canaan (men, women, and children) and to conquer their land. And Only the young virgins t to be sex slaves are to be kept alive: Should be: Only the young virgins t to be concubines are to be kept alive: Disillusioned Citizen: The purpose of this and similar articles isnt to malign Judaism or Christianity, but point out the
22 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
blatant double standards by which Islamophobes judge Islam. The insistence to compare JudeoChristianity and Islam came from Islamophobes like Spencerwho lls his book with segments like Jesus versus Muhammad and the Bible versus the Qurannot Loonwatch.
25.
mike Says:
Good article Danios! Succinct and thought provoking. Dear readers who think this article is bad or not helpful. Have you forgotten what this website loonwatch is all about? Also, Danios is trying to present an argument that destroys the arguments of the islamophobes. You should be thanking him for his time and efforts. I did not nd this article to be disrespectful towards Jews (although I am not one) You were merely presenting a strong case of relativity of religiously based argumentation against Islam. Keep at it bro or sis!!! I bet sponge bob is cringing right now and that Geller is getting a new shot of botox to get rid of the frown on her face! mike
26.
Rob Says:
March 6th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Danios strikes again! Great job. I cant remember how many times ive posted some of these verses for our resident loons. I wonder what some of these counterarguments are.
27.
Ahmed Says:
Beautiful Muslim Doll, I hate to say this, but I completely disagree with you. I think we as Muslims can clearly say that those passages of the Old Testament that tell you to go and kill even babies are man-made and not from Allah (SWT). Yet you seem to be suggesting that because we do not know which parts of the OT are corrupted, we cannot comment on which parts we feel are wrong. Of course, everyone knows that there is pain and suffering in the world. Otherwise we would not have earthquakes. We would not have babies dying. There would be no car crashes no diseases. We believe there was a ood, and this was Allah (SWT)s big plan it does not mean that everyone who perished in the ood was evil. But to try and suggest that Allah (SWT) ordered people to go and slaughter old men, women and even babies (as stated in the OT) is wrong Allah (SWT) has the right to take the life of innocents, we do not.
23 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Brother Danios, great article. I think you should put a note at the beginning making it clear that Muslims believe The Bible is corrupted and so Muslims do not believe that the passages in the OT about Moses can be considered accurate. And to those who say we should not be stooping this low, you should remember what loonwatch is all about ghting loons. And sometimes, to argue with loons, you have to go and use the tactics they use to show them how wrong they are. I participate in a lot of online debates, and articles like these are very useful, because now instead of me having to waste my time typing stuff up, I can simply refer them to here.
28.
TomThumb Says:
Danios, from what I can gather, is not a Muslimhe probably is an atheist and so I imagine he takes a dim view of organized religion. Coming from his angle, all religious stories would probably sound like fairy tales anyhow. So I think its unfair for folks to expect him to write like a Muslim (respect for Moses, etc.). Hes an impartial observer and is gonna be calling em as he sees em. So folks gotta stop complaining methinks.
29.
Rob Says:
If Jesus is God, the God of the Old Testament as they believe, how can they criticise Mohammed for all the things they do accuse him of? Before we get to that massive cognitive dissonance, Id like to know how God can become his own son..amongst other things.
30.
NassirH Says:
The Understanding Jihad article would be over a hundred pages long?! I have to say, thats very impressive.
31.
AJ Says:
I think that what remains now in the old Testament is a lot of fabrication and lies (invented by man and not uttered by God) but then again I understand Danioss rationale that if Spencer has to call some one war like it has to be Moses and not Muhammad based upon whats in the
24 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
books. BTW, to me all prophets are equal.
32.
DrM Says:
The article is more of an indictment of the Old Testament, then Musa(a.s.). It tells us more about the corruption of the Old Testament by the rabbis who promoted a doctrine of exclusivity : chosen. They corrupted Mosaic law to suit their own interests. Muslims do not believe Musa(a.s.) was an unjust man but a great Prophet who only fought in defense of his Ummah. Christians make the same error when they present the Isa(a.s.), the blessed son of Mary(a.s.) out to be a pure peacenik, when in fact he did throw the Pharises/money lenders out of the temple. I can almost guarantee when he returns, hell be denounced as a terrorist by the usual suspect. He wont be a lamb, but a lion.
33.
abdul-halim Says:
Strong argument. I would echo some of the same concerns about attributing the genocidal aspects to Moses. I would also add briey -The genocidal parts of the Bible are actually a part of why Im Muslim. I dont believe God would actually order something like that. -The Quran is obviously harsh at times, but it doesnt stoop to endorsing the indiscriminate slaughter of women and children. -Modern Biblical scholarship (see the Documentary Hypothesis) is of a near consensus that the Biblical Torah was put together several centuries AFTER Moses (a big hint is that Moses dies at the end of Deuteronomy). So as a Muslim I would suggest that the original revealed Torah given to Moses may be the J, D, E or P materials or some combination but certainly not the whole Penteteuch. -There are actually a few passages in the Quran which (to me) suggests that the original commandments werent genocidal and that the children of Israel were instructed to enter the promised land with mercy and not go around killing folks.
34.
NassirH Says:
Danios, from what I can gather, is not a Muslimhe probably is an atheist and so I imagine
25 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
he takes a dim view of organized religion. Actually, from looking at his previous writings, Danios is respectful towards organized religion, whether it is Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. He even has condemned the intolerance some atheists have towards religious people. Also, Danios religion is irrelevant to his arguments, and the Loonwatch team has Muslims, Christians, Jews, agnostics and Atheists. Some Islamophobeslike the zany Kinana of Khaybahave tried analyzing Danios writing in order to discern his identity. Of course, theyd rather attempt to attack Danios himself than his arguments, none of which they have refuted. I guess thats an advantage to writing anonymously and not making public ones religious afliation.
35.
Quran, Surah Al-Ahzab: 21. ! ! ,QV$ CE:, $, ST@ Q: CE:@ N,O 0 $%ML HIJK @A CE:@ A:98 $% :=< 2> ! ! There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. Quran, Surah Al-Najm: 2-5 8 :9@O84 C1Ee iK@O >K h@ g 0 :&@ e cdIO %Z@ a %Z]=< K%^ [\ %Z ! ! ! Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed, Taught to him by one intense in strength Quran, BMD, I dont want this discussion to devolve to a Muslim debate on whether the prophets were infallible or not but a large majority of what you say is not within the dogma of Islam. For you to take the prophets ruthlessness as fact is something that is to this day disputed among scholars. It has been a discussion over much of Islamic history. Many muslims dont believe the prophets were ruthless. Like I said, I dont want to open a whole argument up on this, but I will answer some of questions. Do we? Why then were we told not to judge them and the nations before them? Where is this written? I havent seen this in the Quran. Please give me a citation. We were told not to judge others (including nations) because we are not God. Im not sure about nations in the past or what and you havent really proven that this speaks about the prophets. But in regards to a contemporary context, we do not judge what is in peoples hearts we follow what is in the zahir, i.e. what is in the open/obvious. Much of the problems that occur in Islamic
26 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
countries to this day is because we dont follow this simple idea. We dont judge based on obvious actions, bu rather based on intent or based on heresay. Hence we have the Islamic application of laws through unIslamic methods. We do not know which parts of the Bible are corrupted. The Quran does not tell us that the verses we not like or those deemed as violent are the ones that are corrupted. How do you know those are the corrupted verses when the Quran does not tell us so? So by that standard, do we just accept everything? I say, No. We stick to our own book. If we have something to say as Muslims, let us speak as Muslims. Let us not take the position of other religions, be they Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Agnostic, etc etc etc Quran, Surah Al-Karun. <QK,:10 K,:! m< Jl ! ! &% :=%2,oO% O [n 1: SAY: O YOU unbelievers, 2: ]8p/ %Z 8]e h 2: I do not worship what you worship, 3: 8]e% Z 8l%e <q' h 3: Nor do you worship who I worship, 4: </8]e %Z 8l%e %' h 4: Nor will I worship what you worship, 5: 8]e% Z 8l%e <q' h 5: Nor will you worship who I worship: 6: 0O=< :> IO:=< Why does the death penalty exist for murder? That is inhumane and ruthless, are you saying judges are being ruthless and inhumane to those who are given the death sentence? This is not inhumane and ruthless. This is as a matter of law, a deterrence of killings. A deterrence is not inhumane, and neither is its application. Of course Islam isnt inhumane about this! It specically states that the death sentence is in fact life! There are ahadith describing
27 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
what this ayah is speaking about. In fact two lives are saved with Qisas. One is the life of that who was to be killed (the victim) and the other is he who intended on the murder as his fear of death would stop him from killing. Quran, Surah Baqarah: 179. !9@q/ <=Ep: :]%v% :> O %QK%t9::=< 2> ! And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous. Fighting Islamophobia should not be about being economical with facts and truth nor denying what happened, or what is allowed or what was allowed at one time. Thats just riduculous. I dont want history rewritten, just to satisy the sensiblities of the politically correct. I am not being economical with facts. The argument that the prophets were ruthless is not a fact, and if it was then Islamic scholars wouldnt continue to be debating this very point. I do not want history rewritten either, and Im not an apologist nor am I trying to be conniving or politically correct just for PCs sake. Im saying that these things are not based on solid evidence and are not something that ALL Muslims believe. If you believe it, ne, but dont speak for all muslims, and denitely dont speak for me. Lets not be politically correct here. An enemy who comes to kill you must be struck down. That has been the rule since the dawn of time, and it is the rule today. Do you believe in this or not? because if you dont then there is no point taking this further. Of course I dont believe it! Are you saying that the Prophet killed all of his enemies? Even those enemies who tried to kill him? What about Omar?! What about Abu Sufyan?! What about Abu Lahab? Quran, Surah Al-Anbiya: 107. xM%pE: H1K h%IEA% Z L ! And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources, by Martin Lings. Pg. 87. The grim expression that he now saw on Umars face prompted him to ask him where he was going. I am going to Muhammad, that renegade, who hath split Quraysh into two, said Umar, and I shall kill him. Page 329, Al-Kamil al-Tarikh by Ibn al-Athir (Arabic). 0Z% 2&@ Q|A >l{ Ql [S0 Z
28 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
After the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet stated, He Who enters the house of Abu Sufyan will be safe, He who lays down arms will be safe, He who locks his door will be safe.[4] The Prophet was not known to kill his enemies. Thats an Islamophobic lie that weve all come to accept as truth. In fact, when people would insult the Prophet, his companions were the rst to draw their swords. But the Prophet.well, lets let the ahadith prove my point. Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 61: Narrated Aisha: A group of Jews asked permission to visit the Prophet (and when they were admitted) they said, As-Samu Alaika (Death be upon you). I said (to them), But death and the curse of Allah be upon you! The Prophet said, O Aisha! Allah is kind and lenient and likes that one should be kind and lenient in all matters. I would write more, but I unfortunately have exams coming up this week I would love to continue this conversation, but it will have to wait until after my exams are over. God bless.
36.
The translation of the last ayah of Surah Karun was dropped. It is translated as, To you, your religion, and to me, mine. Which by the way, is totally an American ideal. Freedom of religion. God bless America. And if the Prophet were here, hed say including the Islamophobes. Forgive them God, for they do not know.
37.
Darn, the part fell off
38.
NassirH Says:
For the purpose of buttressing Addendum II: Finally, it is important to recognize that Muhammad is not merely the quest of believers, but of historians as well. In this regard a word of caution must be offered concerning the nature of the sources. The hijra (Muslim calendar) was established only during the caliphate
29 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
of Umar b. al-Khattab (r. 634644 C.E.). Before the hijra, events in Arab life were remembered in relation to more signicant happenings of the recent past, such as raids and battles or through the mnemonic of numbers. Traditions in biographical literature that provide a chronology and sequence to the events that constitute the life of Muhammad are therefore suspect. Moreover the Quran, which is not compiled in the sequence in which it was revealed, mentions Muhammad only four times. Faizer, Rizwi. Muhammad (570632 C.E.). Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World. Ed. Richard C. Martin. Vol. 2. New York: Macmillan Reference USA, 2004. 478-485. Gale World History In Context. Web. 6 Mar. 2011
39.
Dawood Says:
Oooh NassirH that wont do, Dr Faizer is the scholar whose work I was using to respond to JihadBob a while ago regarding the sira, Banu Qurayza etc.
40.
Tristan Says:
the Prophet Moses actions were justied at the time What?
41.
NassirH Says:
Dawood, is this what you speak of? http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/12/islamophobic-tsunamis-engulf-the-washingtontimes/#comment-44770 Wow, you guys really pwned him. I was gone for a few weeks and imagine my surprise when I looked through the articles I missed and saw JihadBob squirming in desperation.
42.
Farlowe Says:
With due respect to both Moses and Mohammed as lawgivers, politicians and writers of scripture . I prefer the peaceful silence of someone like Ramana Maharshi.
30 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
43.
Sam Seed Says:

Danios, this was an excellent piece, well done. I believe the Bible to contain the words of God as well as human hands at work. Proof? Well, how many different versions of the Bible are there, I mean one major denomination has 73 books and the other has 66 books in the Bible.They cant both be the word of God, surely. I think this article also raises awareness as to why Israel is hellbent on ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.
44.
staringattheview Says:
Dawood, Many Jews and Christians have simply left Moses behind. Can you say the same about Muslims and Muhammad?
45.
NassirH Says:
Many Jews and Christians have simply left Moses behind. Can you say the same about Muslims and Muhammad? Yep, Muslims like Bin Laden have left Muhammad [PBUH] behind.
46.
Danios Says:
Staring at the View (SATV): First, please note that Dawood != Danios. Many Jews and Christians have simply left Moses behind. Can you say the same about Muslims and Muhammad? Yes, certainly. There exist many secular, non-practicing, and/or token Muslims. And there exists no shortage of Jews and Christians who believe every word of the Bible and
31 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
wholeheartedly believe in the Biblical accounts of Moses. I will address this very poor counter-argument thoroughly in a follow-up article.
47.
Dawood Says:
Oh Danios got in before me Im not him!
48.

Abdul Halim -Modern Biblical scholarship (see the Documentary Hypothesis) is of a near consensus that the Biblical Torah was put together several centuries AFTER Moses (a big hint is that Moses dies at the end of Deuteronomy). So as a Muslim I would suggest that the original revealed Torah given to Moses may be the J, D, E or P materials or some combination but certainly not the whole Penteteuch. The Torah was entrussted to the Rabbis as conrmed in the Quran. That is what the Talmudic commentary is. Do you really think God didnt know that the entrusted would not differ on opinions of interpretations? The Quran was put into written form after The Prophets death, i believe a 100 years after. In both cases, there were scribes until the Books were put in written form. Surah Al Maidah 5:44) It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): Therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews by the Prophets who surrendered to Gods will and by the Rabbis and the doctors of law, as to them was entrusted the protection of Allahs book and they were witnesses thereto. There are actually a few passages in the Quran which (to me) suggests that the original commandments werent genocidal and that the children of Israel were instructed to enter the promised land with mercy and not go around killing folks. What do you base this on? Al Tabari, and Ibn Kathir are amongst the more prominent scholars whose understanding is that the land of Israel was given for all time to the Israelities by God, and that the Israelites were
32 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
forced to wander in the desert for decades as a punishment because they refused to go in and assert themselves and ght the powerful idolators. The Quran conrms that here. The purpose was to practice their faith. Surah Al Maidah 5:21 O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back [from ghting in Allah 's cause] and [thus] become losers. Surah Al Maidah 5:24 They said, O Moses, we will never enter it, so long as they are in it. Therefore, go you and your Lord and ght. We are sitting right here. Joshua Bin Noon then led a new generation of ghters into the land. That generation that refused to ght (as detailed in Surah al Maidah) were pussy cats, who were used to living in slavery and didnt know how to ght. They were too scared to ght. The generation that Joshua Bin Noon led into Israel had been raised in hardship, and they were ghters ready for Jihad.
49.
JN Says:
Does anyone else nd it amusing that SATV, after being completely trounced in his attempt to defend Al Mutarajjam to the point where he completely dodged LWs deconstruction of his dishonest fatwa translation now shows up here, once again striking out? Reminds me oh so much of the MO of Spencer, Geller, and their ilk simply throw out as many claims as possible, ignore inconvenient points, and never, ever admit that you are wrong. Honesty is a secondary consideration to making sure that that anti-Mooslim banner is carried at all costs
50.
EJ Says:
Can someone at LW conrm they received my e-mail? Thanks.
51.

Nur Alia This kind of article rebutts it fully in that the land was aquired through continuous genocide and ethnic cleansing, just the same as today.
33 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
See my comment to Abdul Halim above. Surah al Maidah, shows they didnt want to comit continuous genocide and ethnic cleansing as you call it, and were punished for it. Surah Ash Shura (26:59) Thus it was, but we made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the Promised Land) %|Q|: <=l %IN ,Sh8 e N 2h@ I=A[ O,A iI]: 8pl 0Z %IEn And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering.
52.
Mosizzle Says:
BMD, the Quran never calls for continuous genocide and ethnic cleansing. The Israelites were simply asked to ght the current inhabitants and live there. The Bible species the gruesome details to kill anything that breathes. In Islam, such an action would be forbidden.
53.
Ismail Says:
I think this is fantastic. More so it is to state that Allahs Prophets were forced to ght in His name, including Musa (PBUH) The violence in the Old Testament is clearly why Christians and Jews have been violent for thousands of years. Its only recently that Christians and Jews, since following off the path of the Bible and Torah have become peaceful LOL.
54.
Aanand Says:
First of all, it is disgusting that you should publish a picture of the Prophet Moses in your article, that too one of a Hollywood actor. Islam doesnt allow any representation of our prophets. Secondly, you are destroying the sanctity of Islamic thought by doing a stupid comparison between two glorious humans chosen by God Almighty. The Prophet Moses (Musa) as you
34 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
know is mentioned more often in the Quran than the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) himself and holds a special place in Muslim hearts even among the exalted prophets. Please refrain from making a point by insulting our own prophets, well-intentioned or otherwise. Stick to ghting for social rights of Muslims please apologize and remove this shameful article from your website.
55. BMD,
Ahmed Says:
Again, I disagree with you. All the orthodox Muslim scholars have stated that the Tawrah in its current form is corrupted. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawrat
56.
duck Says:
the Quran corrected which Bible gone wrong. Bible has many man made addition into the scriptures. the Bible is corrupted,Prophet Musa (as) did not.
57. DrM

The article is more of an indictment of the Old Testament, then Musa(a.s.). It tells us more about the corruption of the Old Testament by the rabbis who promoted a doctrine of exclusivity : chosen. They corrupted Mosaic law to suit their own interests. Trust you to turn up, when you can excercise your jew hatred,. sounds like you have an inferirotity complex? are you jealous? It was God who Chose the Jews, not Prophet Moses. Instead of spending so much time at white power neo nazi sitse, how about you take a peek at the following: Al Quran
35 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
(2:47, 2:122). O children of Israel, remember my favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I favored you above all creation. (45:16) Indeed we gave the children of Israel the Book, and wisdom, and the prophecy, and we provided them with good things and favored them above all creation. when in fact he did throw the Pharises/money lenders out of the temple. I can almost guarantee when he returns, hell be denounced as a terrorist by the usual suspect. He wont be a lamb, but a lion you say the Old Testament is corrupted, but use Christian belief, (The New Testament is even more corrupted as conrmed by Christian Pastors themselves) to use the lamb and lion which is not Muslim belief. again you prove, as always, youre just the Muslim Geller/Spencer. a prize hypocrite. How can you in one breath claim the Old Testament is corrupted then use the New Testament (also corruptedd) to say the usual suspects will reject Jesus? I might remind hypocrites like you, that when Prophet Mohammed was sent to his own community, he was rejected. Muslims did not have the burden of recognising Prophets and distinguishing between false Prophets because we were told Mohammed is the last Prophet. stop spending so much time at Christian supremacist neo nazi sites, you loser.
58. EJ:
Danios Says:
Can someone at LW conrm they received my e-mail? Thanks. Let me ask the admin and get back to you.
59.
Sam Seed Says:

Aanand Says: March 6th, 2011 at 5:22 pm First of all, it is disgusting that you should publish a picture of the Prophet Moses in your
36 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
article, that too one of a Hollywood actor. Islam doesnt allow any representation of our prophets. Take it easy man, this article is done my a none-muslim, Danios. This isnt an Islamic site so I dont see the need to get all red up.
60.
Garibaldi Says:
EJ, we got your email. Thanks, well be getting back to you.
61.
islamispeace Says:
BMD, you said: The Quran was put into written form after The Prophets death, i believe a 100 years after. In both cases, there were scribes until the Books were put in written form. This is simply not true. The Quran was rst put into book form during the rule of Abu Bakr (ra), the prophets successor. I also agree with Ahmed that the scholars of Islam unanimously regarded both the Tawrat and the Injil to have been corrupted. If they werent, they why would God need to send another revelation at all? The evidence for this corruption is, in my opinion, overwhelming. The Documentary Hypothesis points to the stylistic differences in the Tawrat and the Gospels were written by different people altogether. As Muslims, we believe in the original scriptures, but that does not include the modern versions of the Tawrat and Gospels.
62.
JD Says:
I dont think this is a good article. Not in the sense that it was writen bad or anyhting like that but this article make LW look like we are anti-Christian anti semetic typical muslims that we are made out to be.Yes Mohammed and Moses were both ghters but they both had there own reasons. In Mohammed case muslims were being attacked for being muslim and killed. Quoteing scripture from the bible in this case is the same thing as quoteing quran to justify your belief that Islam is a terrorist religion which is done by anti muslim crowd. Without historic context reason and why behind what is said your just reading text from a book.
37 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
63.
JD Says:
There should have been a disclaimer at the start of the article that this article is not a attack on jewish or christian text but we are trying to show that what anti muslim do with the life of Mohammed can also be done with other religious gures and you really should look at context and read background and talk to someone with real islamic background
64.
DefenderofIslam Says:
Long post, to lazy to read all of it. But the part that i read was very intrieging (forgive spelling, to lazy to x intrieging). I used to blindly assume that danios was muslim,now im thinking other wise becuase of the picture at the top, presumuly a ingraven image of a prophet witch is forbiden. Im now thinking hes jewish, or atheist can some one please tell me?
65.
Mosizzle Says:
Aanand, the article is about the Biblical representation of Moses, which is rejected by most Muslims because it is quite different from the Quranic version. This comparison is done to point out the hypocrisy of the Jews and Christians who believe Moses to be a great Prophet yet criticise the Prophet endlessly as a mass murderer. The genocide in Canaan is only shown in such gruesome detail in the Bible whereas it is not in the Quran. Please read the article before commenting. This is about the Judeo-Christian idea of Moses and the Prophet Muhammad, not the Prophet Musa and the Prophet Muhammad.
66.
abdul-halim Says:
Beautiful Muslim Doll, Im not exactly sure where you are coming from but Ill try to respond: [re the documentary hypothesis, and the late collection of the torah]
38 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
You write: The Torah was entrussted to the Rabbis as conrmed in the Quran. That is what the Talmudic commentary is. Do you really think God didnt know that the entrusted would not differ on opinions of interpretations? A-H: And the Quran is also pretty clear that the religious leaders werent always very good at keeping their trust. In any case, I dont think this is a matter of dogma. It is more a matter of common sense. There is a eulogy for Moses at the end of the Biblical Torah so he (as) clearly didnt write that part. And then it turns out that other sections of the Torah are written in the same style. A more in depth study of the historical anachronisms and variations in style strongly suggests multiple late authors. There are actually a few passages in the Quran which (to me) suggests that the original commandments werent genocidal and that the children of Israel were instructed to enter the promised land with mercy and not go around killing folks. What do you base this on? 2:58-59 And (remember) when We said: Enter this town (Jerusalem) and eat bountifully therein with pleasure and delight wherever you wish, and enter the gate in prostration (or bowing with humility) and say: Forgive us, and We shall forgive you your sins and shall increase (reward) for the good-doers. But those who did wrong changed the word from that which had been told to them for another, so We sent upon the wrong-doers Rijzan (a punishment) [] from the heaven because of their rebelling against Allhs Obedience. In other words, God tells the children of Israel to enter the new promised land with humility which is very different from entering the promised land, killing young and old, men and women, children infants and everything that had breath. I wouldnt necessarily disagree with your point that the Promised Land was given to the Jews (at least initially) but my main issue has to do with how the children of Israel should go about securing that claim. For example, even after the section in surah 5 which you refer to, the Quran recounts the story of Cain and Abel with the well-known verse: [5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. Which again would clearly rule out slaughtering children and other non-combatants.
39 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
67.

Mosizzle BMD, the Quran never calls for continuous genocide and ethnic cleansing. The Israelites were simply asked to ght the current inhabitants and live there. those were nur alias words, not mine, and that is your interpretation and it doesnt dont make sense. Idolatory was forbidden in the land of Israel, by God. Thats why God sent them there. Not to live, but to create a theocracy, and thats why all the Prophets bar Mohammed were from Israel. and what is simply? There is nothing simply about invading a country and ghting native inhabitants. If it was simple, why did a generation of ghters have to be raised? Do not justify the unjustiable. Either you accept it as Gods will and commandment or you call it stolen land. No middle way. Dont pretend that the natives would have just rolled over and allowed others to take their land. When the native Canaanite idolators didnt want the new religion or usurpers as they saw them, of course they would ght (not unlike the native indians of America) or to use the example of Prophet Mohammed, were the Quraysh idolators happy to live with him? Of course not, they wanted him dead, along with his followers, and to kill the faith. It was do or die time. You either survive or be killed. To a left wing liberals who dont believe in the Books, it makes sense to think of this as barbaric, and stolen land and the prophets as warriors. But it doesnt make sense for us to say say so without discrediting our own religion. Or for you to say simply live there. There is nothing simple about setting up a theocracy from which Prophets would descend, in a land full of idolators. There is police guarding the two Holy cities (Mecca and medina) to ensure no non believer gets in. Now that may seem intolerant to atheists and liberals who accuse us of religious bigotry, but it matters not one iota to us. We are religious bigots. Would you or Nur Alia be happy with atheists, Buddhists, Shintoists and others coming to live in Mecca and Medina? If not, stop being hypocritical. Ill come back when i have the verse that tells us about how the previous Prophets were allowed things that we are not.
40 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
68.
Garo Says:
NassirH, Re: March 6th,2011 at 1:11 am. It really does not matter to me whether Danios is Muslim,Christian,Jewish,Atheist,Agnostic or,or,or,etc,etc. What matters to me most is the fact that Danios articles have always,always and more always(s) the following admirable qualities: (1) Scholarly written. (2) Highly Knowledgeable. (3) Honesty is poured from their words,phrases,sentences,punctuation mark, lines and paragraphs like Niagra Falls( just a metaphor ). (4) Always,always and more always(s),the moral high ground is rmly adhered to in all the articles he has written in the last two years,so far. (5) The horizon of the mind that writes Danios articles is immense in its relentlessness in chasing the TRUTH. The above reasons make Danios writings have a special meaningful value to me,I can add to my les for future reference. And that is one of the main reasons I keep coming back to post on this website,inspite of the fact that my plate is full of other important issues I feel obliged to deal with rst. Danios qualities of writings remind me of the qualities of writings of Chris Hedges whose writings I admire with profound passion,for the same reasons specied in the above list. Cheers for a better tomorrow for all Muslims,everywhere. And thank you,Danios,for much appreciated efforts by keeping the loons on their toes.
69.
NassirH Says:
I hate to say it, but I thought Id blow an aneurysm after reading some of the above comments.
41 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
70.
Hussam Says:
Beautiful Muslim Doll, stop spending so much time at Christian supremacist neo nazi sites You need to back up this claim already. I asked you in another post to provide examples of these neo-Nazi, Christian supremacist websites that anti-Zionists supposedly refer to for their information, but you didnt answer back. Perhaps you missed it. Either state your sources or quit making such a defamatory accusation.
71.
abdul-halim Says:
BMH, when you try to set up an equivalence between the OT genocides and Muslim jihads I think it is a kind of bait-and-switch. There is a difference between trying to establish a society based on certain truths and trying to establish a land for a certain tribe/ethnicity. In historical accounts it is common to say that the enemy was Quraysh but the prophet (Saaws) and many of the companions (ra) where from Quraysh. And the idolaters of Quraysh were given the opportunity to convert. It wasnt really a racial ght. On the other hand, in the Biblical genocides no allowance was made for conversion. Whole tribes were supposed to be wiped out, including infants. You may try to say it was about monotheism, but no attempt was made to persuade. (At least, according to the Biblical text).
72.
NassirH Says:
BMD, the comments I was referring to above were yours. Firstly, the Quran was not written a hundred years after, but instead was compiled by the rst Caliphs. Most scholars believe the Quran in circulation today was the original version compiled by Abu Bakr. Just see Islamispeaces comment. Islamispeace also makes another good pointboth the Old and New Testaments are considered by Muslims to corrupted. They are not part of the Islamic canon and one cant pick and choose parts of them. I have never heard a Muslim suggest otherwise, at least until now. Whats especially odd is that you seem to be insisting that Muslims believe in the violent conquest of a Canaan as described by the Bible. I cant fathom why a Muslim would want to argue that, and arguing such would actually undermine the article. Idolatory was forbidden in the land of Israel, by God. Thats why God sent them there. Not to
42 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
live, but to create a theocracy, and thats why all the Prophets bar Mohammed were from Israel. Excuse me for using the anglicized names, but if my memory serves me correctly, Abraham, Noah, Adam, Hud, and Dhul Qarnyan were all not from Israel. There are probably many other examples too.
73.
Aanand Says:
Mosizzle, Yes, I read the article before I commented. It was still in bad taste. And it still doesnt explain loonwatchs decision to show an image of the prophet Moses.
74.
abdul-halim Says:
oops, I meant BMD not BMH.. .. about non-israelite prophets, Adam, and Noah were before Israel. Israel/Jacob was the grandson of Abraham. Shuayb is sometimes identied with Jethro who was a priest and Moses father-in-law. There is also Luqman, Melchizadek. Also apparently according to Jewish sources 7 Gentile prophets, Balaam, Beor, Job and his four friends.
75.
NassirH Says:
Aanand: The Moses discussed in the above article is that of the Bible, not of Islams twin canon. There are differences between the way Islam and Christianity/Judaism portray certain Prophets. An example other than Moses/Musa is that of David/Dawood. In the Bible, David kills 200 Philistines for the purpose of marrying Sauls daughter (a detail omitted from Islam); while in the Quran he partakes in more quaint activities like singing and speaking to birds. Of course, in both Islamic and Judeo-Christian versions he kills Goliaththere are subtle differences in that incident too, but thats aside the point. Danios was simply showing how violent and indeed gruesome the Biblical accounts of Moses conquests were, with the purpose of highlighting the double standards held against the Prophet Muhammad. That being said, I highly suggest that Danios not have a pic of the Prophet Muhammad in his future articlesif he catches my drift.
43 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Also, although I agree that a Muslim should refrain from representing the Prophets pictorially, there were times in history that Moses was illustrated by Muslim artists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Moses
76.
Garo Says:
To those who are critical of the current article written by Danios: You are respectfully reminded of the following points: (1) Danios has every right to quote from the Old Testament,(Torah),and from the New Testament,(Bible),as much as any Jewish scholar or Christian scholar has the right of quoting from the Quran. It is a two-way street and not one way street,at all. (2) Danios has only quoted what is in the Torah to prove to those who quote from the Quran,especially what is related to the word,Jihad,in order to serve their relentless campaigns in demonizing Islam and Muslims that the violence as it is written in the Torah exceeds the myth they claim about the violence in Islam. In fact,some knowledgeable Christian ordained Ministers,admitted to me,in debates,that Islam was/is,indeed,the least violent of the three Abrahamic religions. (3) Danios has not attacked Judaism as a faith which a group of fellow human beings and happened to be Jewish believe in. Not at all. (4) Islam and Muslims need the scholastic abilities and know-how of knowledgeable persons like Danios,Karen Armstrong,historian Arnold Toynbee,the late Edward Said and loonwatch poster,Dawood and many other Islamic scholars,to encounter and neutralize the vicious and mean-spirited campaigns waged against Islam and Muslims,not only by Robert Spencer and his ilk,but by Christan Mega-Churches leaders like Pat Robertson,John Hagee and their ilk;and by radical and hard core Zionists like Daniel Pipes,Bernard Lewis(regret to include him here,but he left me no choice since 9/11),and last but not least the Jewish fundamentalist Rabbis whose hatred and bigotry were well covered and documented by loonwatch.com,as late as a three or four months ago. (5) Although the strict instructions of Islam to its adherents is never to start an arrogant aggression,it has no turn the other cheek either. On the contrary,self-defense is called for,when it is deemed necessary. (6) To be not to be as the Quran and some Hadiths say is not Islam,at all. Cheers for a better tomorrow for all Muslims everywhere
44 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
77.
Jack Cope Says:

Good post Garo, may I second that? No where is this article demonizing anyone, we just have to accept that, when we look at it, any faith, even Buddhism, has blood and guts. However, the correct interpretation of any God given faith is the same, violence *only* in defense and so on. Its when men start to meddle with Gods word that we get problems. The whole point of this article is to point that out to those who say that Islam is the only violent faith out there. Agreed, its a tough subject and youll break some eggs but I think it has been well done to say the least here. Plenty of other people who have tried to do the same simply ip the picture round, i.e. make it seem like Islam is non-violent and everything else covered in blood. That is wrong and has been avoided here. The truth is what is needed in this debate, and with the truth we see that, in reality, we are all reading from the same book. It is up to us to emphasize these common values that exist in every man and woman. Insallah. I have not liked all of Danioss writings but I very much look froward to seeing the next few pieces of work, they should make the whole subject much clearer.
78.
Percey Says:
Oh my! Believing in invisible men in the sky who care what you eat and who you make love to leads to violence? Shocking!
79.
TomThumb Says:
To be not to be as the Quran and some Hadiths say is not Islam,at all. I didnt understand that sentence Garo. Could you please explain?
80.
Ibn Mikael Says:

The reason why the Prophet (saw) and Moses (saw) seem violent in comparison with gures like Jesus (saw) is quite simply because, unlike Jesus (saw), they led true, full-edged communities. Its easy to be non-violent when the only people at risk of said violence is ones self and ones close devotees. However, when women, children, the elderly, and other innocents are at risk of harm from an aggressive enemy, one simply cannot adopt such non-violent
45 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
policies. To not defend ones family is cowardice, not nobleness. One cannot make a comparison of the prophets without taking into consideration the context of their respective situations.
81.
Garo Says:
DisillusionedCitizen, Re: March 6th,2011 at 1:18 pm. DC, Since you know Quranic Arabic so well,may I suggest to chech the following superb source for interpretations of Surah Al-Ahzab and Surah Al-Najm and for all other Surahs in the Quran: ~ For Surah Al-Ahzab,please check the following: Book Title: Tyseer El-Tafseer By Shaykh Ibrahim Al-Qattan,(deceased). Al-Mujalad Al-Thalith,(Volume Three). Sufhah 467,Page 467. ~ For Surah Al-Najim,please check the following: Book Title: Tyseer El-Tafseer by Shaykh Ibrahim Al-Qattan,(deceased). Al-Mujalad Al-Rabi,(Volume Four). Sufhah 226,Page 226. My suggestion is NOT intended to criticize your selection and interpretations of the two Surah mentioned in the foregoing,but please consider it as an appeal from me to relay on the four thick volumes of Tyseer El-Tafseer as solid and extremely relaible references for interpretations of every Surah in the Quran. Just in case you are not familiar with the background of Shaykh Ibrahim Al-Qattan,allow me to introduce his remarkable resume to you: * Shaykh Ibrahim Al-Qattan graduated from Al-Azhar University in Cairo Egypt. I need not describe what it meant to be a graduate of that most prestigious university in the Moslem world,in addition of being considered one of the oldest,if not the oldest university in the world. * Shaykh Ibrahim Al-Qattan was a citizen of The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. He started his career,as an Islamic scholar,Inspector of the Education System in Jordan for a few years. * Because of his hard work and integrity,he was appointed Wazeer Al-Maarif,meaning,Minister of Education of the government of Jordan. He was appointed
46 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
more than once in that position,in different governments formed by different Prime Ministers. * Again because he excelled in every position he held and because of his highly admired integrity,he was appointed by a Royal Decree Qathi Al-Quthah,translation,The Judge Of Judges of The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. * While holding the position,The Judge of Judges,Prince Hassan,The Crown Prince of Jordan,then,had commissioned him to nd reasonable interpretations of the Surahs of the Quran. * After years of researches and dedication,he wrote Tyseer El-Tafseer made of four thick volumes which were published in 1983. I was stationed in Amman,Jordan,when the rst edition was published. It is the reference I consult whenever I need to. * Shaykh Ibrahim Al-Qattan died a three or four years after he wrote his monumental interpretations of the verses of the Quran,Tyseer El-Tafseer. I thought that you,Danios,Dawood,Abdul Haq and every one else who was/is well versed in Arabic might be interested in considering Tyseer El-Tafseer as a reliable reference for interpretations of the Surahs of the Quran. Usually,Oxford University,in England,translates what is published in tha Arab and Muslim world. I do not know whether the four volumes of Tyseer El-Tafseer were translated or not. Have no idea. BTW: The meaning of Tyseer El-Tafseer is the following: Tyseer means Making Easy,(or Smooth). El-Tafseer means The Interpretation. Therefore,the approximate translation Tyseer El-Tafseer is Making Easy The Interpretation. Cheers for better tomorrow for all Muslims everywhere.
82.
Dawood Says:
Its a very useful tafsir Garo! I have heard great things about the Shaykh here, and skimmed the text though not read in-depth.
83.
rambo Says:
Back then, ancient biblical prophets were often war-like-it was almost a matter of survival.
47 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
but not all of thier opponents were like them. iszraelites and the prophets were portrayed as predatory and raiding and they killed that which breaths. dont know how much of israel blitzkrieg was exaggerated but the pagans in the ot did have a higher standards of humaness than the izraelites 1 Samuel 30:1 Then it happened when David and his men came to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had made a raid on the Negev and on Ziklag, and had overthrown Ziklag and burned it with re; 2 and they took captive the women and all who were in it, both small and great, without killing anyone, and carried them off and went their way. 3 When David and his men came to the city, behold, it was burned with re, and their wives and their sons and their daughters had been taken captive.
84.
rambo Says:
When the native Canaanite idolators didnt want the new religion or usurpers as they saw them, of course they would ght (not unlike the native indians of America) THE AMALEKITES OF SAULS TIME WERE LIKE THE NATIVE INDIANS OF AMERICA you dont know this because you have never read the old testament. do you know what vicarious punishment means? vicarious punishment goes on a lot in the bible. This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what THEY DID TO Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. THE WORDS TO FOCUS ON for what THEY DID TO Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. YHWH WANTS VENGENCE FOR SOMETHING WHICH HAPPENED 400 years before Yahweh commanded Saul to destroy totally the Amalekites. CHECK this verse out 4 So Saul summoned the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand foot
48 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
soldiers, and ten thousand soldiers of Judah. >5 Saul came to the city of the Amalekites and lay in wait in the valley. 6 Saul said to the Kenites, Go! Leave! Withdraw from among the Amalekites, or I will destroy you with them; FOR YOU SHOWED KINDNESS TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WHEN THEY CAME UP OUT OF EGYPT. the kenites are allowed to leave because they showed kindness to israelite when they came out of egypt. on the other hand, if the kenite PAGANS did not show kindness to the israelite 400 years before saul told them to go leave they ,along with amalekites, would have been DOOMEd. 1 Samuel 15:2 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, I will punish the Amalekites FOR WHAT THEY DID IN OPPOSING THE ISRAELITES WHEN THEY CAME UP OUT OF EGYPT. 3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. 4 So Saul summoned the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand foot soldiers, and ten thousand soldiers of Judah. 5 Saul came to the city of the Amalekites and lay in wait in the valley. 6 Saul said to the Kenites, Go! Leave! Withdraw from among the Amalekites, or I will destroy you with them; FOR YOU SHOWED KINDNESS TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WHEN THEY CAME UP OUT OF EGYPT. Lets juxtapose this passage with Deuteronomy 25:17-19. 17 REMEMBER what Amalek did to you on your journey out of Egypt, 18 how he attacked you on the way, when you were faint and weary, and struck down all who lagged behind you; he did not fear God. 19 Therefore when Yahweh your God has given you rest from all your enemies on every hand, in the land that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; do not forget. WORDS TO FOCUS ON REMEMBER what Amalek did to you on your journey out of Egypt So 400 years later, Yahweh sent a prophet to Saul and said to him, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt (1 Sam. 15:2). This was a grudge. 17:16 He said, They have dared to raise their st against the LORDs throne, so now F29 the LORD will be at war with Amalek generation after generation. . i say all of this , but i think i agree with the sister bmd when she says that we should not convert the prophets into defenseless puppies or soften thier actions which seem violent to us.
49 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
85.
halal pork Says:

@Duck ;The Holy Bible tells every thing honestly unlike the Quran.That,hence refutes the Quranic lie that the Bible has been corrupted.It is the Quran which is the corrupted form of Judeo-Christian scriptures with pagan foundations.
86.
rambo Says:
The Torah was entrussted to the Rabbis as conrmed in the Quran. if THE QURAAN SAYS THAT EITHER OF THE HEBREW/IBRIYAH BIBLES OR TODAYS INAJEELS ARE IN MINT CONDITION UNADULTERATED, THEN I AM HAPPY TO SAY THAT THE QURAAN IS WRONG. I QUOTE Overwhelmingly, scholars agree that many books of the Hebrew Bible are conate. There are multiple sources to the Pentateuch, to Isaiah, to Job, to the Psalter, to Samuel to most books in fact. So what is the autograph? If proto-Isaiah writes something on Monday, hands it to his friend Yerachmiel, then on Thursday he rips up his original and writes something new, which is the inerrant autograph? Isaiahs revised version or that which he gave to his buddy, who then recopied and distributed it? Another example: Yehoiakim burned Jeremiahs rst scroll, and the text of Jeremiah itself (Jer 36:32) attests that a new scroll was produced by his amenuensis, Barukh, which included all the words from the scroll Yehoakim burned, and there were added besides unto them many words like these (veod nosaf aleihem devarim rabim kahemah). Leaving aside the transparently unrealistic claim that the new scroll contained all the words of the original, clearly the new scroll contained additional material. So which is inerrant? If we could cross out the new stuff in Jeremiah, leaving only what was in the original scroll, would the resulting text be inerrant? And how do you deal with the fact that the Masoretic Text of Jeremiah is 13% longer than that in the Septuagint?! Which version is more inerrant? END QUOTE we know that the hebrews engaged in child sacrices, pimiping , worship other than yhwh ect. quote: they were as stiff-necked as their fathers, that they had followed worthless idols, that they had forsaken all the commands of Yahweh, that they had bowed down to all the starry hosts and Baal, that they had sacriced their sons and daughters in the re, and that they had practiced divination and sorcerythe very offenses that were forbidden in (2 Kings
50 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
17:9-18). quote: , if only they will be careful to do everything I commanded them and will keep the whole Law that my servant Moses gave them. 9 But the people did not listen. Manasseh led them astray, so that they did MORE EVIL than the nations Yahweh had destroyed before the Israelites. 10 Yahweh said through his servants the prophets: 11 Manasseh king of Judah has committed these detestable sins. He has done more evil than the Amorites who preceded him and has led Judah into sin with his idols. QUOTE: Ezekiel 20:30 Therefore say to the house of Israel: This is what the Sovereign Yahweh says: Will you dele yourselves the way your fathers did and lust after their vile images? 31 When you offer your giftsthe sacrice of your sons in the reyou continue to dele yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, O house of Israel? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Yahweh, I will not let you inquire of me. In saying that the Israelites of his time continued to dele themselves to this day, the way [their] fathers did, when they sacriced their sons in the re, Ezekiel was implying that this had been a long-standing practice among them. WHERE WERE beautiful muslim dolls rabbis when all of these dirty practices were going on? what happened to the oral law which talked avbout monetheism? did it die out? wiped clean from israelite conciousness?
87.
Garo Says:
Tom Thump, What I meant is the following: Islam demands/instructs its adherents to run thair daily lives as given in the Surahs of the Quran and as quoted in some of the Hadiths. It is the only way to be a good Muslims,assuming all Muslims have applied on themseelves the ve pillars of Islam,which are listed below: (1) Al-Shahada: The Witnessing. (2) Al-Salat: The Prayer. (3) Al-Siyam: The Fasting. (4) Al-Zakat: The Donations,(for the poor). (5) Al-Hajj: The Pilgrimage. My apology,if I fail again in making what I meant a little bit clearer.
51 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
88.
Jack Cope Says:

Lets just ignore Mr Pork people. Unlike Loreal, youre not worth it
89.
Reas Ekberg Says:

Aanand. You wirite, First of all, it is disgusting that you should publish a picture of the Prophet Moses in your article, that too one of a Hollywood actor. Islam doesnt allow any representation of our prophets. It is just a myth that pictures were forbidden in Islam. It is nowhere. We see the photos and movies of our religious scholars. In Quran we see that the Jinns were making paintings for Apostle Suleman. Paintings and pictures are communication techniques and are not forbidden by Allah. Allah has enumerated in Quran what is forbidden by him. Photograph making does not include photos. It is rather zeenatallah.
90.
Dawood Says:
By the way Garo, the tafsir of the late Shaykh is available here (in Arabic only, sadly) for viewing, along with many others.
91.
Garo Says:
Yes,Dawood,(in Arabic only,sadly)-sadly for the non-Arabic speaking people.
92.
Dawood Says:
Garo: Of course; the contemporary scholars are also doing some wonderful things! For those interested, the site I linked (http://www.altafsir.com/)also has an English section with some very useful tafsirs in translation there (Al-Jalalayn, the Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn
52 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Abbas of al-Fayruzabadi, and also the Asbab al-Nuzul of al-Wahidi).
93.
Garo Says:
Jack Cope, Ignoring Mr.Pork is the decent thing to do for him,since he just keeps repeating the same crap over and over again-no novelty even in his crap. One way to ignore him is to stop reading his posts. Will do.
94.
Thank you for your recommendation. Ill take a look at it when I get a chance to. The Arabic version is perfect. If you want to read an author, read it in the original I always say.
95.
Garo Says:
Dawood, I have just nished trying to get the link you have graciously provided. It is unavailable. However I have already led the name of the two reference titles you have given between brackets,for possible future use,as situations may demand. I repeat them below just to make certain I have gotten them correctly: (1) Al-Jalalayan,the Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir ibn Abbas of al-Fayruzabadi. (2) Asbab al-Nuzul of al-Wahidi. Since I am fond of The Principle of Cause and Effect,most likely,I will like reviewing (2) listed above. Thank you,Dawood,for the two reference titles in English. Much appreciated.
96.
TomThumb Says:
@Halal Pork
53 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Garo is right, there is not much novelty in your crap these days. Please come up with some more novel crap. Your crap is usually interesting and you are no doubt an entertaining man, but its certainly about time you came up with something new, so you can become relevant again. Im sorry if this is applying too much pressure on you, but please do try. @ Garo, Thanks for taking the time off to explain. Appreciate it!
97.
TomThumb Says:
Dawoods hyperlink isnt right, a few characters at the end have to be removed and it works ne then.
98.
Awesome Says:
@Duck ;The Holy Bible tells every thing honestly unlike the Quran.That,hence refutes the Quranic lie that the Bible has been corrupted.It is the Quran which is the corrupted form of Judeo-Christian scriptures with pagan foundations. There is no objective basis to make this claim.
99.
AJ Says:
My loon detection meter and analysis of some writing samples here detects that Halal Pork may suffer from a case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and the Pork persona is the Hyde version. The Jekyll version is here too but a little hidden and not too apparently vile.
100.
Jack Cope Says:

Lets not feed the troll people, only encourages it. Clearly this is a troll diminus rather than a troll magniq, the lesser species being incapable of original thought, the greater but rarer greater species providing hours of entertainment. Ours doesnt sadly so its best to leave it in its sad dance and not encourage it.
54 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
101.
Dawood Says:
Sorry folks, the comment mechanism did not separate the URL from the text itself, it is as follows: http://www.altafsir.com/
102.
WisdomtoIslam Says:
There is a very concise article that pretty refers to the same topic. It is an interesting article thats a read. http://wisdomtoislam.com/myths-on-islam/answering-a-jizya-tax-opponent-a-wake-up-response
103.
WisdomtoIslam Says:
Meant to say its a good read.
104.
Jack Says:
Nassir, throughout history, one can nd depictions of the prophet Muhammad by Muslim artists too. And not just in Persia either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad
105.
Aanand Says:
NassirH: Muslim artists also illustrated the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as can be seen in many Persian miniature depictions. Thats beside the point here. loonwatch could have respectfully refused to
55 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
re-post the picture.
106.
Aanand Says:
Reas Ekberg Says: It is just a myth that pictures were forbidden in Islam. It is nowhere. We see the photos and movies of our religious scholars. In Quran we see that the Jinns were making paintings for Apostle Suleman. Paintings and pictures are communication techniques and are not forbidden by Allah. >> Surah Saba 34:13 that you refer to talks about Ma7areeb or and Tamatheel, not NECESSARILY about pictorial depictions of humans, especially prophets. prophet Solomon was a follower of Mosaic law which also forbids images it seems farfetched that a prophet of Allah so clearly violated a rule. The Hebrew Bible mentions that the prophet Solomon committed idolatry in his old age but the Quran does not mention this so theres some confusion. In addition, numerous accounts from the hadiths explain how the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) felt about people making images. So yes, the Holy Quran doesnt expressly prohibit images, but you have a very weak case to say that it is Zeenat Allah. None of this should condone loonwatchs decision to post a picture of a Hollywood actor depicting one of the most exalted prophets.
107.
Hussam Says:
Thank you for the resource Dawood!
108. @jack :
DrM Says:
Nassir, throughout history, one can nd depictions of the prophet Muhammad by Muslim artists too. And not just in Persia either. And they were wrong in doing so. Your point fails.
56 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
109.
rambo Says:
bmd were you known as nabeela?
110.
ok i just got time to read the artical and the comments,sorry how stupid my above comment was, Exelent artical. But still i must confess that even though i hate what robert spencer writes he is very good at it. But all in all danios is a better writer. I also think that the proper way to ght islamaphobia is to debate, so how come you, danios refused im sure you could set robert aand friends strait
111.
Awesome Says:
In other words, God tells the children of Israel to enter the new promised land with humility which is very different from entering the promised land, killing young and old, men and women, children infants and everything that had breath. Them entering the promised land in humility, is probably more historically accurate, since the Canaanites were living there before and during Israelite rule (even at its highest point with Kings David and Solomon). Had their been such a large-scale massacre, its doubtful that Canaanites would have survived beyond it. In fact, idolatry existed in Palestine (even among some of the Israelites) up until the Babylonian captivity. It was only upon the end of that captivity and their return to Palestine in 520-515 BCE (followed by the construction of the Second Temple), that the Torah played a central role in Jewish life. This period also saw the emergence of scribes and sages as Jewish leaders.
112.
Jack Says:
And they were wrong in doing so. Your point fails. Yada, yada, yadaa.
57 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
113. Jack:
NassirH Says:
I was aware that Muslims have historically portrayed the Prophet Muhammad pictorially. Generally Shiites were more lenient in regards to such depictions than Sunnis, and in Iran the government still allows pictures of both Muhammad and Ali.
114.
NassirH Says:
Heres an old Loonwatch article that deals with illustrations of the Prophet Muhammad. I thought it was pretty good, and it was originally in response to the South Park controversy.
115.
Tristan Says:
the previous Prophets were allowed things that we are not IMHO someone who actually believes his god ordered atrocities such as the ones mentioned in the OT and still believes he is a god of mercy has a serious problem. Frankly, the crap about gods mysterious ways hardly works here.
116.
abdul-halim Says:
Awesome, I dont think what you are saying is totally logical. It is almost like you are saying, the Nazis must have been good guys because there are still Jews today. I mean, even if you dont have qualms about killing children, genocide is going to be hard work. Also, if you look at the book of Joshua, you get a more specic and detailed account of how the Israelite army went from city to city killing folks. And there is also an interesting story of the Gibeonites. They were a Canaanite group who had heard about the army of the children of Israel and were so scared that they pretended to be from somewhere other than Canaan (so they wouldnt get exterminated). They tricked the children of Israel into signing a pact so they were only enslaved. What Im saying/suggesting is that if you want to be skeptical of the Bible as a historical
58 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
account, ne. And maybe some things are exagerated. But if the text puts commandments to commit genocide in Gods mouth, and records a large number of different massacres taking place (e.g. the book of Joshua) then that isnt sufcient to say that the army entered in humility
117.
Danios Says:
A few Muslim readers requested that the picture be changed. Some were nicer than others, but one reader in particularnot going to name names*Cough* Aanand *cough*was ruder than others. Correct me if I am wrong, but the proper way to communicate religious advice in your religion is through softness and kindness. In your own holy book, it says: You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones. (Quran, 16:125) Do you think your response t this instruction from your own holy book? It was completely unnecessary for you to give such an unfriendly response. (Unfriendly here is a *big* euphemism.) All you had to do was say Hey thanks for the article, just a request: do you mind switching the picture? A lot of your readers are Muslims and while we recognize your right to post such pictures, it would be courteous of you to do otherwise. Thanks! And Id have changed it for you, being the lovable and huggable guy I am. For those of you non-Muslims who are confused about what this whole conversation is aboutBasically, from the very beginning of Islam, pictures of the Prophet Muhammad and other prophets were forbidden as a step to prevent idolatry. It was the Islamic opinion that one of the reasons the Christians started worshiping Jesus was because of pictorial representations of him. Muslims and Protestants would have issues with the way Catholics today have gurines of the Mother Mary when they pray. In fact, Islamic theology states that the very rst act of idolatry, which was done by the people of Noah, was done after the people made pictures next to the graves of pious people who had died. Nonetheless, Muslims of course need to understand that this prohibition applies to Muslims, and all others can only be kindly requested. To be very clear, most Muslimsat least in the Westunderstand and value this point. It is only in some Muslim countries where the religious right has found dominance that this becomes an issue and rights are infringed upon. In this particular case, I do NOT think Aanand was guilty of taking away my right. Under freedom of speech, he has all the right to be as offended, angry, and as obnoxious as he wants to be to anything I doso long as he doesnt resort to violence or force, which he hasnt. So why did I post that picture on a site that has quite a few Muslim readers? Answer: I didnt think about it. Sue me.
59 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
118.
Jack Says:
@Danios; By changing the picture though, youre giving in to bullying jerks. And since they got what they wanted, youve just conrmed that they get what they want by being a bullying jerk. And so, theyll do it again, regardless of your lecture, which is rendered null and void by your actions.
119.
islamispeace Says:
Hey Daniosif you need a defense lawyer, I volunteer! Although I applaud that you changed the picture, I feel that many of the comments were simply uncalled for. But anyway, thank you for changing the picture even though it was made into a bigger deal than it was.
120.
Danios Says:
I understand where you guys are coming from, but I removed the picture out of my belief that we live in a world where being respectful of the beliefs of others is an important attribute to have for one who claims to love peace, tolerance, and liberal values. It took nothing away from me, it did not cost me a cent, it did not take more than a few seconds of my time, I did not give a kidney to take off the pictureKeeping the picture or removing it does not harm or benet me in one way or another, so why not err to the side where I can be respectful and culturally sensitive? This driveto be respectful, tolerant, and culturally sensitivetrumps any desire to teach bullies a lesson.
121.
Aw Danios. Huggable indeed. Need a hug, bud? Critical I might be, but I sure do appreciate your hard efforts. I guess I just think you can handle a critic or two God bless, DC
60 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
122.
I dont think you should have changed the picture ( though my comment may have fueled the ames so to speak). Let me just say i didnt read all the comments before commenting so it can sound like i support this anand guy. I dont care what pictures you use, show a picture of you eating bacon while drunk, with on date that corresponds with ramadan leting your beer class on the Holy Quran. ( though i wouldnt support it). I just didnt know you where not muslim, becuase you run a site that defends islam, i appoligize again for my comment and any civil disorder i may have contriuted to
123. Danios,
AJ Says:
You did a good thing. Plus it would be better to compare books than Prophets. We know Old Testament is man made so, if we have to, lets prove that Old Testament is more violent than proving that Musa is more violent (which he was not).
124.
HGG Says:
@ Danios: I understand why you changed the picture, but I still believe it was wrong to do so. It wasnt intentionally offensive and everyone here knows the good work you do (and if they dont they should inform themselves before opining) and there is always the chance someone could nd other things offensive, should you change them too? The new pic seems to equate the Bible with violence, perhaps a Christian should take offense too? And this is kind of playing to Spencer and Gellers stereotypes i.e. Muslims declaring what other people can and cannot do, which is of course false, as DefenderofIslam amply proves in the post above. @AJ We know Old Testament is man made so As opposed to the Koran being sent by fax from God? Way to convince Christians of the fallacies of Anti-Muslim sentiment. By saying that what they believe is false. The point of Loonwatch is not to proselytize or prove one Religion is true over the other, but to explain the fallacies Spencer et al using to criticize Islam.
125.
Jack Cope Says:

61 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
This AJE program seems to have been on a similar thread to your article: http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2010/03/201032584118951469.html
126.
Awesome Says:
Awesome, I dont think what you are saying is totally logical. It is almost like you are saying, the Nazis must have been good guys because there are still Jews today. I mean, even if you dont have qualms about killing children, genocide is going to be hard work. Also, if you look at the book of Joshua, you get a more specic and detailed account of how the Israelite army went from city to city killing folks. And there is also an interesting story of the Gibeonites. They were a Canaanite group who had heard about the army of the children of Israel and were so scared that they pretended to be from somewhere other than Canaan (so they wouldnt get exterminated). They tricked the children of Israel into signing a pact so they were only enslaved. What Im saying/suggesting is that if you want to be skeptical of the Bible as a historical account, ne. And maybe some things are exagerated. But if the text puts commandments to commit genocide in Gods mouth, and records a large number of different massacres taking place (e.g. the book of Joshua) then that isnt sufcient to say that the army entered in humility @ abdul-halim, Im just saying that the Quranic account is, historically, more accurate than the Biblical account, as many non-Israelite communities continued to exist in Palestine, long after the arrival of the Israelites, without ever being massacred by them. This suggests that the wholesale massacres of everything that breathes, as depicted in the Bible, is inconsistent with actual history. However, since no such massacres occurred in the Quran, then the Quranic account is more consistent with actual history.
127.
Danios Says:
Jack Cope: Quotes from Prof. Philip Jenkins are found in further parts of the Understanding Jihad Series, so actually the premise is very similaralthough I havent seen this AlJazeera clip yet. Ill watch it now. Thanks for the link.
62 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
128.
abdul-halim Says:
@awesome, I think there are two separate questions which are getting mixed up. 1) What did God *really* tell the children of Israel to do in the Promised Land? 2) How did the children of Israel actually behave in the Promised Land? As far as 1) goes I think the Bible and Quran give two very different answers. The Bible basically claims that God ordered the children of Israel to commit genocide and show no mercy. The Quran says the children of Israel were ordered to enter the land/city with humility and no killing anyone except for manslaughter or mischief in the land. And so just from a theological/moral perspective, the Quran makes more sense. I dont believe that a just and merciful God would order perpetual genocide against multiple tribes. The second question is how the children of Israel *actually* behaved. The Bible give a long and detailed account, spread across several books, but most prominently in the book of Joshua, of the violent process undertaken by the army of the children of Israel of how they went about securing their claim to the Promised Land. But here, Im not sure I would say that the Quran would disagree with the Bible about what the actual behavior was. Im not sure what passages could be cited to give a different view. For example, the passage which says that the children of Israel were *ordered* to enter the land with humility goes on to say that they disobeyed. In other words, I dont believe that God would order anyone to commit genocide. But I actually do believe that at some point, the army of the children of Israel did engage in a genocidal land grab and manufactured some kind of religious justication. They probably did go from city to city, inicting massacres on the general population, but obviously the genocide was incomplete.
129.
Danios Says:
I just watched the AlJazeera clip. It wasnt too impressive, because their Muslim guest didnt really bring anything to the discussion.
130.
Cynic Says:
I wonder, where are all the real Muslim academics? Why dont we ever see people like Sherman JAckson on tv?
63 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
131.
Jack Cope Says:

I believe it is meant for a more mainstream audience who dont like you quoting chapter and verse from Islam. One of the issues I have found with debating some anti-Islam people is, as soon as I start quoting then I get accused, and of course if I dont quote then what is the point of the debate? On a side track it reminds me of this silly woman I saw commenting on a news article, complaining about how Muslims were only a small fraction of the US but always on the TV and then went onto a triad against them. Sorry my dear, but they are there because of idiots like you demanding it! And then complaining afterward
132.
Jack Says:
@abdul-halim; as any non-dogmatic scholar of the Old Testament will tell you, the stories of Joshua were largely made up. Not that anything was altered about it; it was made up from the beginning. For instance, the famous story of the battle of Jericho where the walls came tumbling down. It cant be true because the city was sacked at least a thousand years earlier, then rebuilt and destroyed by an earthquake a couple of hundred years before Joshua came around. There is no evidence of other cities being massively sacked in the period Joshua is supposed to have come along either. There is some evidence that at the time a distinctive group of people lived in the hills of Judea.
133.
rambo Says:
what is disgusting is that christian apologists are not only apologists for the modern day hebrews, but also apologists for the ancient hebrews. i guess you all know the philosopher william lane craig look at how he tries to defend the izraelite blitzkrieg 4. God delayed the genocide for 400 years showing his long-suffering. Craig says: Think of it! God stays His judgment of the Canaanite clans 400 years because their wickedness had not reached the point of intolerability! This is the long-suffering God we know in the Hebrew Scriptures.
64 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
How does this excuse God? If I delay committing an atrocity for a long time, then I am excused? Lets say that I delay killing my neighbor for 40 years even though he has been offending me from day one. I am patient and suffer through his offenses year after year until nally it becomes intolerable and I have to kill him. Does the fact that I waited 40 years in any way mitigate my crime Cananites killed their childrenSecond, how is killing all of the Canaanite children justied by the fact that the Canaanite parents killed their own children? That is absurd. Its like punishing an incestuous child molester by molesting his children yourself. He writes: 6. The children had to be killed so that the Israelites would not intermarry with them or assimilate their culture and evil practices. What a weak straw Dr. Craig is grasping now! First, Israel continued to have problems with idolatry throughout its history, so Yahwehs plan obviously didnt work. If God knew that it wouldnt work, why murder the poor children? Second, in Numbers 31:17-18, Yahweh allowed the Israelites to keep the Midianite virgins for themselves. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (NIV). I guess the Midianites were not as bad as the Canaanites and Yahweh could trust his people not to assimilate the false religion of the Midianites. Furthermore, in Deut. 21:10-14, the Hebrew God allows the Israelite soldier to keep a beautiful woman for himself if he nds one in the midst of a battle. (I guess it pays to be beautiful, if you are an ugly woman, you probably die). When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. (NIV) Third, its not at all clear that the Canaanite children would have corrupted the Israelites. They were children after all. They could be reared by the Israelites to believe in Yahweh and follow his laws. Would a Christian today refuse to adopt a Haitian orphan because the childs parents practiced voodoo? Fourth, isnt Craigs rationale an example of the end justifying the means? The means, killing innocent children, which is clearly wrong, is suddenly okay because it will prevent a greater evil, i.e., the worship of false gods? This is the concept of choosing the lesser evil but it is still an evil which is supposed to be impossible for a perfectly holy God. Craig continues grasping.
134.
rambo Says:
65 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
>Exodus 17:15,16 (The New Living Translation) >17:15 Moses built an altar there and called it The LORD Is My Banner. >F28 >17:16 He said, They have dared to raise their st against the LORDs >throne, so now F29 the LORD will be at war with Amalek generation after >generation. >FOOTNOTES: >F28: Hebrew Yahweh Nissi. >F29: Or Hands have been lifted up to the LORDs throne, and now. Sauls massacre of the Amalekites was a payback for something that their ancestors had done 400 years earlier. For the sake of argument, I am conceding the historicity of the Amalekite attack on Israel as claimed in Exodus 17, BUT THAT HAD HAPPENED 400 years before the time of Saul. How could a morally perfect deity hold a tribe of people responsible for something their ancestors had done 400 years before? Thats the problem, and wont confront it. For the sake of argument, Ill concede the historicity of this Amalekite attack in Exodus 17 and even concede that this was an act of raising their st against Yahwehs throne. So with that concession, I want you to explain to us the morality of exterminating the Amalekite nation 400 years LATER for the incident recorded in Exodus 17.
135.
rambo Says:
What miracles did he perform?Did he feed thosands with a few loaves and sh? it seems that your brains have been relocated up your bum whole dont you know that there is scholary consencusthat the feedings scenes in the new testament have been plagiarised from the ot? dont you that that the fraudsters who wrote the gospels stole events from the ot and tried to historcise them in time of jc? if your brain ever decided to go back to normal position, read the book by dominic crosson who killed jesus and bart ehrmans latest book forged in the name of god
136.
rambo Says:
Mohammad always used odd number of stone to wipe the holy backside what did the olived skinned jew called jesus krist use to wipe his backside? or what did the olived skinned jew whom you worship use to wipe his bum? did the holy ghost do it for him? or did the father use his tounge to do it for him? when your god was taking a crap did you worship @ his feet?
137.
rambo Says:
66 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Did he give life to the dead through his fake god Allah the whole of israel turned against your god. according to your books, the jews turned crowds against jesus in 2 days. now that is one hell of a miracle. jesus miracles FAILED him. his own deciples sh it thier loads and ran like rats. the jesus in the gospel is A FAILURE! jesus only takes off in europed because people far away from israel REVAMPED him. like microsoft ME was modied to windows VISTA. i bet you never read books about magicians , jews and pagans performing amazing miracles in antiquity? why? because your pagan religion only REDUPLICATES it false claims again and again, thinking to itself that other claimants to miracles will disappear. by the way, jesus was an UNKNOWN in ISRAEL and so was paul.
138.
AJ Says:
Halal Pork and Jack, what are you talking about? I think LW is bending over backwards to please people like you to make everything sound PC and mainstream so stop complaining.
139.
AJ Says:
Porkie, I assume Sir Salman Rushdie doesnt use water but dry cleans insteads.
140.
Sam Seed Says:

Ah, the Christian who believes Jesus is God is back. How enlightened you are and thankyou for sharing your beautiful teachings. Jesus would spit on your face Mr. Pork. You are a radical sex end.
141.
I wouldnt be surised if danios dosnt comment on this post again. Halal pork isnt right though infact most of the people on this site got angy at the on person who said he wanted it changed. Nice try though, thank you for you useless post
67 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
142.
abdul-halim Says:
@Jack, Im not being dogmatic. If you want, read the Bible and throw out all the miracles. Even throw out Jericho. What do you think happened when the children of Israel left Egypt and tried to settle in Canaan? Did they go around giving out owers and candy? Were they welcomed by the native inhabitants with parades and confetti? What do you think actually happened?
143.
Mosizzle Says:
HalalPork, you have still not answered me on the other thread where you said that Christian Prayer was superior to Muslim prayer: http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/02/wajahat-ali-my-awkward-moments-in-muslim-prayer /#comment-59998 By the way, HP, the miracle of the Prophet is the Quran. All of Jesuss miracles as reported in the Bible cannot be witnessed today, nor can they be proven to have happened, even though Muslims still believe that they happened. However, The Prophets miracle can be witnessed by people today its the everlasting miracle! And please HalalPork, stop turning this into a Christianity vs. Islam thing. This website isnt about who is superior.
144.
Reas Ekberg Says:

rambo Says: You write Mohammad always used odd number of stone to wipe the holy backside what did the olived skinned jew called jesus krist use to wipe his backside? or what did the olived skinned jew whom you worship use to wipe his bum? did the holy ghost do it for him? or did the father use his tongue to do it for him? when your god was taking a crap did you worship @ his feet? How you know all that rambo and what is its importance?
68 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
145.
Reas Ekberg Says:

Anand Quran gives a list of what is forbidden: Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty We provide for you and for them and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand. (6:151) Photograph and photography is not there. All muslim clergies are fond of photographs. You write Prophet Solomon was a follower of Mosaic Law which also forbids images it seems farfetched that a prophet of Allah so clearly violated a rule. The Hebrew Bible mentions that the prophet Solomon committed idolatry in his old age but the Quran does not mention this so theres some confusion. Where you get this? There is only one deen of Allah. Same was followed by all of the messengers and we have to follow all the messengers through Quran. You write The Hebrew Bible mentions that the prophet Solomon committed idolatry in his old age. Dont believe it. It was to malign him and is adulteration with the gods message. You write In addition, numerous accounts from the hadiths explain how the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) felt about people making images. Dont believe this also. It is same maligning of the messenger of Allah by his enemies. All the messengers had enemies. What was done with Jesus and who did it? You write So yes, the Holy Quran doesnt expressly prohibit images, but you have a very weak case to say that it is Zeenat Allah. Neither expressed nor impliedly. On Zeenatallah you may think over more. To me it includes, beautication, decorations, nice clothing,ne arts etc. What is your impression on Zeenatallah? If we forbid what is not forbidden we will be doing zulm.
146.
Reas Ekberg Says:

Abdul-Haleem.It was cunningness of politician to use religion to reinforce the political issue. All Palestinians are not Muslims. Quran rather supports in a the promised land concept. That land was not promised for ever. Later normal currents of changes and survival for the ttest worked.
69 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
Ibne Kathir and Tabri say that promise was for ever. Then? What happened to the promise? No need of such debate when the undisputed text of Quran is available.
147.
Reas Ekberg Says:

rambo. You write What miracles did he perform?Did he feed thosands with a few loaves and sh? What was the result of those miracles? Crucixion!!!
148.
rambo Says:
i didnt write, the christian who calls himself pig asked that question
149.
Danios Says:
I deleted the f bomb posts by Halal Pork.
150.
Reas Ekberg Says:

Danios. I appreciate your article. The research is commendable and done with denite agenda. It is effective also. I however wish if there were no such controversies. Your commentaries on the Biblical citations are polite. That is the beauty of your article.
151.
abdul-halim Says:
Reas Ekberg, Im not certain where you are coming from. What do you think Im trying to say? What exactly are you trying to say?
152.
Mosizzle Says:
70 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
HalalPork, I dont need to, I believe that both the Prophet Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad are sinless. So does this mean you cannot respond to my comment, because you are changing the topic?
153.
Ahmed Says:
@Danios Just wanted to say, I think your article, as always, is brilliant. @Those who were rude guys, please remain respectful on this site. If you were offended with the picture, you should say so nicely. Danios and co are doing a great job, and despite what some say, no, theyre not getting paid for it by Soros! So those who were rude, you really need to take a long and hard look at yourself and about how you conduct yourself.
154.
Awesome Says:
@awesome, I think there are two separate questions which are getting mixed up. 1) What did God *really* tell the children of Israel to do in the Promised Land? 2) How did the children of Israel actually behave in the Promised Land? As far as 1) goes I think the Bible and Quran give two very different answers. The Bible basically claims that God ordered the children of Israel to commit genocide and show no mercy. The Quran says the children of Israel were ordered to enter the land/city with humility and no killing anyone except for manslaughter or mischief in the land. And so just from a theological/moral perspective, the Quran makes more sense. I dont believe that a just and merciful God would order perpetual genocide against multiple tribes. The second question is how the children of Israel *actually* behaved. The Bible give a long and detailed account, spread across several books, but most prominently in the book of Joshua, of the violent process undertaken by the army of the children of Israel of how they went about securing their claim to the Promised Land. But here, Im not sure I would say that the Quran would disagree with the Bible about what the actual behavior was. Im not sure what passages could be cited to give a different view. For example, the passage which says that the children of Israel were *ordered* to enter the land with humility goes on to say that they disobeyed. In other words, I dont believe that God would order anyone to commit genocide. But I actually do believe that at some point, the army of the children of Israel did engage in a genocidal land
71 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
grab and manufactured some kind of religious justication. They probably did go from city to city, inicting massacres on the general population, but obviously the genocide was incomplete. @ abdul-halim, On (1) we agree. However, in regards to (2) there is no evidence to support the children of Israel engaging in genocide in conquering the land of Canaan, and while the Quran says that they disobeyed, it doesnt elaborate on when and how. The only mention of the massacres, is in the Bible. As for the Biblical account, it has been suggested that the account of the conquest of Canaan in the Bible, is interwoven from later, exaggerated military exploits. Porky: What did he prophesise which came true? The victory of the Romans over the Persians (Quran 30:1-5), the conquest of Mecca by the Muslims(630 CE) (Quran 48:27-28), the martyrdom of some of his companions, the Muslim conquests of Arabia (630 CE), Jerusalem (638 CE), Persia (644 CE), Yemen (633 CE), Iraq (636 CE) and Cyprus (649 CE), the rst Muslim civil war (656-661 CE), the great plague epidemic in the Anwas region of Syria-Damascus Palestine that started around 640 CE, the Muslim conquest of Constantinople (1453 CE), the rise and fall of the Caliphates and Sultanates of the past, the wars against the Romans, the Mongol Invasion in the 13th century, air travel, widespread belief in horoscopes and astrology, the Iran-Iraq war, the embargo against Iraq, the construction of skyscrapers, to name a few. What miracles did he perform? - The revelation of the Quran, the Night Journey to Jerusalem and into Heaven, the splitting of the Moon, healing of ill and wounded people, food and water multiplication, knowledge of things he had no way of knowing, to name a few.
155.
DrM Says:
@Dainos I dont see why anyone would have a problem being polite about it. especially all your hard work on this site. Akhlaq and adab people! @BMD aka 1001 trolls, I see youre up to your usual shenanigans, picking ghts with your betters. There was no jew hatred(show me which christian neo-Nazi websites you claim I get my material from) in my post, but a clear differentiation of the Musa(a.s.) of the Old Testament verses that of the Quran. You also lied when you claimed I used the New Testament to reach my point. Feel free to show us where the New Testament in used in my post, but you wont because you wont nd it.
72 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
Muslims believe that Christians and Jews corrupted the scriptures revealed to them. There is enough evidence in Surah Al-baqarah and Tauba to prove to back this up. Musa(a.s.) was not some genocidal warrior bent on conquest(he was a mighty Prophet who fought for the freedom of the Hebrew monotheists at the time). Even Muslim children know this but you dont, which proves not only your theological illiteracy but the fact that youre NOT a Muslim. Youre [snipped--DrM stay away from such language] (give or take a dozen of your fake identities). If you had your head up your ass any higher youd be wearing your colon as a bonnet. You havent even read the Quran which you haphazardly cite(or rather and paste) out of context, are you willing to take me on the subject of corruption within the Old Testament(the Covenant and all that other stuff included)? Im calling you out, gutter snipe. And dont think Ive forgotten who you ran like a poodle when I challenged you on fraudster Masimo Palazzis lies about the Quran. Put up or shut up!
156. Danios,
Aanand Says:
I was not upset with you. First of all, I dont know who you are. I specically chided loonwatch, which protects islamic values for reprinting an image of prophet Moses, completely unnecessary and uncalled for. The article makes some valid points without the need for resorting to Hollywood embellishment. If I sounded rude its because muslims are quite upset when images of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are made. The last thing we need is for someone to print images of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and point to loonwatch and say didnt you guys print images of prophet Moses?
157.
TomThumb Says:
Aanand, hope you can still tone it down a bit bruv, Danios is our hero isnt he? We ought to hug him like he says.
158. Reas::
Aanand Says:
You wrote : You write The Hebrew Bible mentions that the prophet Solomon committed idolatry in his old age. Dont believe it. It was to malign him and is
73 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
adulteration with the gods message. My response: Thats precisely my point. My point is that Prophet Solomon did not commit idolatry, but the Israelites accused him of it. But you brought up Surah Saba as an example of the prophets sanctioning paintings my point was that when Surah Saba talks about jinns making images and statues for him, it could not have been images of other prophets or even other living things. Hope that makes it clear. And no Im not committing zulm. I completely agree, portraiture is not explicitly forbidden in the Quran but neither does it say that it is halal. On the other hand, there are enough hadees to make it appear haraam and this is irrefutable. When in doubt, be safe rather than sorry, no? More importantly, lets have respect for our prophets and avoid using Hollywood images to represent them!
159.
Aanand Says:
A few Muslim readers requested that the picture be changed. Some were nicer than others, but one reader in particularnot going to name names*Cough* Aanand *cough*was ruder than others. Do you think your response t this instruction from your own holy book? It was completely unnecessary for you to give such an unfriendly response. (Unfriendly here is a *big* euphemism.) All you had to do was say Hey thanks for the article, just a request: do you mind switching the picture? A lot of your readers are Muslims and while we recognize your right to post such pictures, it would be courteous of you to do otherwise. Thanks! And Id have changed it for you, being the lovable and huggable guy I am. So why did I post that picture on a site that has quite a few Muslim readers? Answer: I didnt think about it. Sue me. >> Listen bro, I dont know that youre not a practising muslim nor is it relevant to me, honestly. Loonwatch is run by people who are muslims (maybe not all of them are muslims) as far as I can tell, and they more than anyone else can exercise editorial discretion. Or is that too much to ask? So why did I appear so worked up? Its because muslims need to behave in the same way that they expect from others. If we dont want images of our beloved prophet (pbuh) published (which many of us dont, not all mind you) then we shouldnt publish images of prophets either! Simple enough rule. Secondly, the last thing loonwatch wants to create is a war of images. Finally, I appreciate the work loonwatch does to protect the civil and social rights of muslims.
74 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
160.
Aanand Says:
And nally, Danios, thank you very much for taking the picture down and replacing it with something else.
161.
Aanand Says:
Oops, I forgot the *hug* for Danios. Peace!
162.
Reas Ekberg Says:

halal pork Says:I am also waiting your response to my question.Prove ANY SIN committed by Jesus the Christ and also prove any SIN NOT committed by Mohammad bin Abdullah.After that ,I would be delighted to answer your question. What to prove when there are no sins. Only God knows if there were any.
163.
Rob Says:
Everybody just needs to relax and laugh at the bumbling buffoon, porky pig.
164.
NassirH Says:
Aanand, I think you overreacted.
165. Danios:
Garo Says:
75 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
I will be less than an honest man,if I refrained from telling you bluntly the following points that,somehow,have disturbed,to a degree,my faith in your determination to accomplish what ought to be accomplished in order to neutralize nefarious propaganda and poisonous deeds committed by the vicious and determined enemies of Islam and Muslims: ~ You are horribly courteous. ~ You are disturbingly accommodating. ~ You are needlessly defensive. And you need NOT be any of the above,at all. You need only be a knowledgeable scholar I have the pleasure and privilege of following what he writes and possibly learn from his writings. By bending to the minority demand,you have opened a can of worms;no one knows what other demands you will face in the future and nd yourself you may have to bend down to accommodate,nor knows one the extent of your bending is going to be;that may severly break your back to the state of total paralysis in thoughts and freedom of expression. In such a situation neither Islam nor Muslims are served by your obvious talent. Removing the photo of Musa was a mistake,Danios. And I hope in the future you write and do what your conscience tells you and move on to the next stage in what you are doing. When in Rome,do what the Romans do.,Author Unknown.
166.
Jack Says:
What do you think happened when the children of Israel left Egypt and tried to settle in Canaan? Did they go around giving out owers and candy? There are four main hypotheses about how the settlement happened, but the main competitors today are: 1. The conquest hypothesis; still popular because it sticks closely to the narrative of Joshua. But it can hardly be true, because the archeological evidence doesnt support a unied conquest. Some of the cities mentioned in Joshua get sacked before the Hebrews are supposed to have entered the land, and others get sacked over the course of a hundred years. 2. The ruralization hypothesis. From 1200 on, city states in Canaan were in decline. The economic system came to a halt and peasent farmers settled beyond areas of state control. Thus we have a village population emerging from the highlands. These tribes somehow merged/took on the religion of a group around Moses in Midian. Among the rst to jorn was the Transjordanian tribe of Reuben, rstborn of the sons of Jacob/Israel. Later, this once powerful
76 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
tribe was threatened with extinction (Deut. 33:6). But by then many others had joined the Mosaic movement scholars call Yahwism. (Lawrence Stager, Forgin an Identity in: Michael Coogan, The Oxford History of the Biblical World, Oxford University Press, 1998, 142) Now, if the evidence refutes option one, we should assume the main contender is closest to the truth (until another contender would come along, which would explain more of the data). So basically, there wasnt a big conquest of a foreign tribe. There was a mishmash of all sorts of people emerging from the land itself, feeling they werent part of the normal crowd in the cities and ghting for their stake in the land. And slowly these groups joined/formed a collective of tribes under the banner of Yahwism, which was imported from a religious group from Midian (possibly through Midianite traders).
167.
abdul-halim Says:
Jack, Ill admit that I have to do more reading on the subject before I could really form a strong argument on the subject. But I think you are still overstating your case. You only actually described two of the 4 hypotheses but I found a more detailed outline for all four major theories. https://people.creighton.edu/~ngr39382/four_hypotheses.htm So rst of all, the Conquest hypothesis denitely has its defenders and it is suggested by at least some of the archeological evidence. (There is evidence that some cities were destroyed.) But then also the other two hypotheses which you didnt explicitly mention, the Pastoral nomad hypothesis and the Peasants Revolt hypothesis still include the idea that the people of Israel comitted acts of violence against the Canaanite cities. So if you want to say that the real story is more complex, and that maybe there was a class component. or there were other social changes going on during this period, ne. And if intermarriage and other factors make the identity of the children of Israel more complex, ne. But it still seems really odd to argue that not even the faintest wisp of the Biblical account is true. You seem to be saying that Canaanites were skipping and picking owers through the hillside, were peacefully converted to worshiping Yahweh, eventually became Jews, but then when they retold their own history, they transformed the account into a bloody violent genocidal conquest. Again, Im all for skepticism. But why would there such a radical change?
168.
Aanand Says:
NassirH,
77 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
I didnt use foul language, nor did I say anything offensive, did I? So where exactly did I overreact? In the future should I ask for your expert advice before deciding how to react to anything in the future? Pray tell.
169.
HGG Says:
@Aanand Listen bro, I dont know that youre not a practising muslim nor is it relevant to me, honestly. Loonwatch is run by people who are muslims (maybe not all of them are muslims) as far as I can tell, and they more than anyone else can exercise editorial discretion. Or is that too much to ask? So why did I appear so worked up? Its because muslims need to behave in the same way that they expect from others. If we dont want images of our beloved prophet (pbuh) published (which many of us dont, not all mind you) then we shouldnt publish images of prophets either! Simple enough rule. Secondly, the last thing loonwatch wants to create is a war of images. Danios isnt Muslim and Loonwatch isnt a Muslim site. Some commentators are Muslim, yes, so they should follow the rules of their Religion and not post pictures of your prophets, but neither Danios nor Loonwatch as a whole are restricted by these rules.
170.
IbnAbuTalib Says:
Anand, Loonwatch is not a Dawah site.
171.
Awesome Says:
So if you want to say that the real story is more complex, and that maybe there was a class component. or there were other social changes going on during this period, ne. And if intermarriage and other factors make the identity of the children of Israel more complex, ne. But it still seems really odd to argue that not even the faintest wisp of the Biblical account is true. You seem to be saying that Canaanites were skipping and picking owers through the hillside, were peacefully converted to worshiping Yahweh, eventually became Jews, but then when they retold their own history, they transformed the account into a bloody violent genocidal conquest.
78 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Again, Im all for skepticism. But why would there such a radical change? @ abdul-halim I dont think its so much of an issue of radical change as it is of mutual co-existence. The Canaanites and the Israelites may have co-existed in the Palestine for centuries after the Israelites arrived there.
172. Hgg
Aanand Says:
Listen bro, Loon watch can feel free to post anything they want. But you should calm down and realize that I was making a constructive criticism without resorting to abuse or vitriol. Danios must have thinskin to think that i was rude and others think i overreacted, amazing accusations. Finally, yes do whatever you want. But next time someone posts images of Muslim prophets as a quid pro quo, Id like to see how that helps anyone. Its only muslims who suffer. And no one recognized that while danios has the right to post anything, the charlton Heston image did absolutely nothing to add to the article except sensationalize.
173.
Jack Says:
Aanand; except that for American Christians and Jews, the picture of Charlton Heston isnt offensive at all. Did you know that they showed me the Ten Commandments in Sunday School? Sure, the combination of the picture people hold dear with an article critical of Moses may raise some feeling of discomfort with believers, but considering the complete lack of death threats and abusive language by Jews and Christians in the comments section, I think we may safely say theyre perfectly able to absorb the shock and move on with their life. Besides, if you make absolute truth claims for your religious ideas, you should also be able to cope with scathing criticism. If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. But next time someone posts images of Muslim prophets as a quid pro quo, Id like to see how that helps anyone. Its only muslims who suffer. Really? You think that some Jewish organization, when it sees a picture of Charlton Heston will go all bonkers, and start posting pictures of Jesus and Muhammad in retaliation? Dont you realize how ridiculous that thought is. No-one bats an eye over a picture of Moses. In 1998, they had a cartoon version of Moses, The Prince of Egypt. No-one complained.
79 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
So all your arguments are projections of your own hurt sensibilities (Mommy, someone posted a picture of Moses on the Internet!).
174.
Jack Says:
Aanand: But you should calm down and realize that I was making a constructive criticism without resorting to abuse or vitriol. Danios must have thinskin to think that i was rude and others think i overreacted, amazing accusations. Apparently, you have a short memory span. Let us revisit for a moment what you said, shall we? Aanand Says: March 6th, 2011 at 5:22 pm First of all, it is disgusting that you should publish a picture of the Prophet Moses in your article, that too one of a Hollywood actor. Islam doesnt allow any representation of our prophets. Secondly, you are destroying the sanctity of Islamic thought by doing a stupid comparison between two glorious humans chosen by God Almighty. The Prophet Moses (Musa) as you know is mentioned more often in the Quran than the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) himself and holds a special place in Muslim hearts even among the exalted prophets. Please refrain from making a point by insulting our own prophets, well-intentioned or otherwise. Stick to ghting for social rights of Muslims please apologize and remove this shameful article from your website. Disgusting, you are destroying the sanctity of Islamic thought, stupid comparison, insulting our own prophets, remove this shameful article. Yeah, that *really* sounds like constructive criticism. And how can anyone label your courteous requests as even remotely rude? Its amazing how people read things into other peoples writing that arent there at all
175. Jack,
Aanand Says:
Stupid comparison yes, to compare two prophets on the basis of who was more warrior-like is stupid indeed. Because it is the type of argument that only raises tempers and leads to MORE vitriol. We want to build bridges between muslims and other communities, not burn them! Disgusting yes. The article says The Bible advocates genocide of the adherents of other
80 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
religions and constantly refers to the violent nature of prophet Moses. Whatever your intention, you should really try to refrain using such language when trying to make a point. Listen bro, Islam teaches us to respect other faiths and never make fun or use abusive language. I may have used strong language but I never abused or used expletives. I absolutely never used any threatening language. I have no desire for violence or abusing other faiths.
176. Jack,
Aanand Says:
Besides, if you make absolute truth claims for your religious ideas, you should also be able to cope with scathing criticism. If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Absolute truth claims about what? What are you talking about? Far from me not being able to take the heat, it seems you are the one who cannot sleep comfortably knowing someone out there doesnt think youre all that. Take a chill pill.
177.
Jack Says:
I beg to differ, Aanand. I dont think that any Jew or Christian, reading the article above is going to get all upset and angry with Muslims insulting their religion. Because you see, Jews and Christians are pretty much used to the kind of criticisms raised in Danios essay. Havent you noticed that the only ones complaining about it in the comment section are Muslims? So all that talk about Jews and Christians getting worked up over this, is going on in your mind, coming from a Muslim perspective, and dare I say a foreign-Muslim perspective. You may have noticed that several of your fellow believers feel youre making way too much of a deal of this. Whatever your intention, you should really try to refrain using such language when trying to make a point. But what if its true? What if the bible actually does advocate genocide on the peoples of Canaan? Is is somehow forbidden to state the truth plainly, because of fear of irking religious sensibilities? Furthermore, the point of the article is not to bash Moses or Judaism, but to show that the very people who launch criticism at Muhammad for being a warrior-prophet, purposefully engage in applying double standards. Because if they would be honest, theyd apply the same logic to Moses and Judaism and more to the point: to Zionism. And if theyd looked carefully enough, theyd see that Moses is way more genocidal in the Bible than Muhammad is in the Sira. Moses commands even the woman, children and animals to be killed (how is that not genocide, I ask you).
81 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
Not only do I think its a perfectly sound argument, I also think its pretty effective. It broadens the perspective, and forces people to relate their experience of the way Jews and Christians read the stories about Moses to the way Muslims read the stories about Muhammad. Because even though the stories portray Moses as someone who ordered genocides and the killing of thousands of his own people for insubordination, most people understand that Jews and Christians dont take that as what they should be doing today. But when it comes to Muslims, the same people all of a sudden abandon that logic and propagate that because of Muhammad, Muslims are mentally on hair-trigger alert.
178.
Danios Says:
Aanand: Perhaps it would have been better if you had just apologized for your unnecessarily rude behavior. It seems that you have a very difcult time just accepting fault and moving on.
179. Jack,
Aanand Says:
To me its irrelevant whether Jews get worked up about it or not. Images are forbidden in Judaism as well, (while they are not forbidden in Christianity) so as a muslim Id be worried about hurting Jewish sensibilities. If they choose to slander our prophet (pbuh) it is their choice and Allah will surely judge their actions. In other words, Im not big on slandering other peoples faiths. I think its puerile and a terrible way to build understanding and bridges between communities. Im also concerned with your choice of words like genocidal when describing the bible or the prophets. Seriously you need to think before making such statements about things that people consider very dear and very holy, if only out of respect and not out of fear. You talk about truth. Well, let me state that in many cases the truth that you describe is not objective. Let me explain - To a believer A) The prophets acted as they were commanded by God, so whatever they did needs to be looked at from that lens. If youre a believer, you understand that God knows best, and if he commanded the prophets to do something, there must have been a very important reason for it. In other words, you dont go around judging a prophet like this. B) Thou shalt not kill is a commandment. The Quran clearly prohibits killing as well. So in
82 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
other words, a believer recognizes that the prophets, if they killed at all, were not killing because killing was acceptable, but because it was Gods will. Believers also recognize that prophets took great pains to make sure that others dont misrepresent their actions and laid out clear rules that we can follow. For examples, rules around when violence was acceptable (which was only in rare circumstances) and when it was not. Finally, if youre NOT a believer, then yes, none of this would make any sense to you and may think that both the Bible and the Quran advocate murder. But we understand that your perception is clouded by lack of faith.
180. Danios,
Aanand Says:
I cannot apologize for being rude when I dont think I was. I was making a point, albeit very strongly, and I have also explained why I thought the article was making a stupid comparison and left a bad taste in my mouth. For someone with a supposedly open mind, youre very concerned when someone criticizes you! Champion of freedom of expression, arent you? Heres my suggestion: Next time you write an article, and someone disagrees or think your article is nonsense, just delete those comments. Or let it be known that you only accept comments if it involves praising you to the skies.
181.
NassirH Says:
Aanand: I dont really see the point of continuing this. The picture has already been changed.
182.
Aanand Says:
NassirH, Thanks again for being my personal posting advisor. And Im only responding to others comments.
83 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
183.
HGG Says:
I cannot apologize for being rude when I dont think I was. I was making a point, albeit very strongly, and I have also explained why I thought the article was making a stupid comparison and left a bad taste in my mouth. For someone with a supposedly open mind, youre very concerned when someone criticizes you! Champion of freedom of expression, arent you? Heres my suggestion: Next time you write an article, and someone disagrees or think your article is nonsense, just delete those comments. Or let it be known that you only accept comments if it involves praising you to the skies. YAWN. Internet Martyrdom is so boring.
184.
J Ila Says:
To Aanand You saw t to pick a ght with the author over the image of Charlton Heston from the movie, The Ten Commandments, cuz it goes against your Koran. The author also said other things that contradict your Koran In other words, God purchased the land that the natives lived on, and He would give it as inheritance to the Israelite conquerors. It should be clear that the words all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away refers to genocide, a point which we will subsequently be made clearer. Your Koran tells you that this a Jewish inheritance for Jews. Why did you not take offence at this comment?
185.
Sam Seed Says:

@Aanand You made the mistake of assuming Danios was a Muslim and the site as somehow being run by Muslims which it is not. I think you should not have had a dig at Danios for portraying an accurate analysis of the Biblical version of Moses. I was not affended by the picture just as most of the Muslim commentators. I think you were wrong to critize Danios, it certainly wasnt
84 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
constructive and you pressured him into changing the picture which he should not have done. It also enforces the stereotype that Muslims issue threats.
186.
AJ Says:
Aanand was a little annoyed when he posted the original post but thats ok. Dont we have others rant here as well when they feel the need do or do the rights only belong to the wolf in sheeps clothing here? Aanand I am ON YOUR side on this side. You were a little rude since you were angry but I nd the article (not too much the picture alone since he is not Musa but everything combined) a little distasteful too in the sense that we are making fun of our Prophet and Gods scripture (although it is not in its true state anymore) and putting a war like photo of Charlten Heston for its parody value to rebuke the idiot Spencer. We are turning into just like the Zionists, slowly and gradually.
187.
AJ Says:
I meant, Aanand I am ON YOUR side on this issue.
188.
AJ Says:
I give the same respect to the Bibles in our hotel rooms by not putting our socks in the drawer or anything on top of it even though I know it has been changed but I know it once came from God so it needs the same respect as our holy book Quran.
189.
Khushboo Says:
Excellent article! Thank you for all your hard work. I totally understand the double standard that goes on by Islamophobes and we should be frank and speak up about it whether it offends some or not.
190.
Aanand Says:
March 10th, 2011 at 11:49 am
85 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
AJ, I think you hit the nail on its head. Sites like loonwatch are playing an important role, but I wouldnt recommend people coming here everyday! The more time we spend obsessing over loons who will never change and for whom Allah knows the punishment, the more we become like them. Loon-iness is infectious.
191.
Aanand Says:
March 10th, 2011 at 11:57 am
Sam Seed, You made the mistake of assuming Danios was a Muslim and the site as somehow being run by Muslims which it is not. I think you should not have had a dig at Danios for portraying an accurate analysis of the Biblical version of Moses. I was not affended by the picture just as most of the Muslim commentators. I think you were wrong to critize Danios, it certainly wasnt constructive and you pressured him into changing the picture which he should not have done. It also enforces the stereotype that Muslims issue threats. When in the world did I issue a threat. What in the world are you smoking? I dont know how old you are, or which cave you live in, but in the real world, people dont always like what you say or write, and sometimes they are free to express their opinions, dislikes and disgusts about what you said or wrote. If you dont want negative opinions of your article, dont have a comments section, or better, only ask your friends and family to post comments. Get it? Get this straight dude I did NOT pressure or threaten anyone, only asked the picture to be taken down. Asked, not pressured, not threatened see the difference Einstein? Danios in all his mighty intellectuality could have dismissed me as a sore loser or a whacko and left the picture there. He didnt. It was HIS choice to take the picture down and then he has the gall to blame his decision on my comments! Ask him to post the picture back if he wants to. I dont have any respect for his work and dont care what he writes or posts anymore. Dont go around blaming me for it.
192.
Mosizzle Says:
March 10th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
^Someone needs to calm down Actually, everyone should take a chill pill. It was just a picture and its gone now anyway.
193.
86 of 105
Yamit Says:
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Where in the qoran does it say Ishmael was the sacricial son? Jerusalem isnt mentioned in the qoran. But anything to steal someone elses land.
194.
Jack Says:
March 10th, 2011 at 11:16 pm
You only actually described two of the 4 hypotheses but I found a more detailed outline for all four major theories. https://people.creighton.edu/~ngr39382/four_hypotheses.htm If you look more closely, youll notice that the rst three of them all have challenges noted, while the last hypothesis does not. So obviously, the writer feels the last one is the correct one. The reason why I only mentioned two is because the rst one will continue to be popular among bible believing theology students because it seems to line up nicely with the biblical account (in fact, it was designed to do so) and the last one seems to carry most favor among serious bible scholars today. Also notice the conclusion drawn: Conclusion: The evidence appears to indicate that ancient Israel emerged as a rural, kin-based tribal society engaged in both agriculture and animal herding (primarily sheep and goats), bearing no discernible cultural distinction from neighboring social groups. As Stager writes, The evidence from language, costume, coiffure, and material remains suggest that the early Israelites were a rural subset of Canaanite culture and largely indistinguishable from Transjordanian rural cultures as well. So according to your own source, the Israelites were originally Canaanites, hardly distinguishable from the rest of the population. (Except, maybe, for the Philistines, who were descendants from Sea faring people, if Im not mistaken from Crete). So why did they change this to a violent, genocidal past. The answer is probably threefold. First, because of nationalist identity. Back in the day, it wasnt exactly considered a weakness to say you conquered your enemies completely. Secondly because the writers wanted to pit the Yahwe-believing Isralites against the idolatrous pagans of Canaan. And thirdly, because the compilers of the stories (the so called Deuteronomistic Historians) sought to explain how God could have forsaken Israel and Judah, and let Jerusalem fall in 586 BCE. So they compiled this multi-volume history, stretching from Joshua to the book of Kings, explaining how remaining in the land was contingent on being faithful to Gods laws and precepts. Time and again they show that Israels kings fall into idolatry because of marriage with pagan women, and that Israel as a whole is seduced into idolatry by the pagan population of Canaan. So, it follows then that it would be better to eradicate all the pagan Canaanites.
87 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
195.
Sam Seed Says:

@Aanand, Here is what you posted in your rst comment directed to Danios:..Please refrain from making a point by insulting our own prophets, well-intentioned or otherwise. Stick to ghting for social rights of Muslims please apologize and remove this shameful article from your website. That sounds a bit like pressuring/threatening, no? I think YOU need to calm down not me.
196.
Aanand Says:
Sam Seed, Really? Asking someone to please do something sounds threatening to you? Stop making a fool of yourself and go get an education. Please.
197.
Sam Seed Says:

March 12th, 2011 at 11:16 am
Aanand, And what education would that be? You refused to apologise when Danios asked you to for being rude, and yet you expect an apology from him for writing this article. Who are you to come here and rewrite the rules, like annother commentator said This isnt a dawah site.You come across as a bit of a bully in my opinion.
198.
JustBob Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 11:43 am
I havent read the posts in this thread, but has anyone brought up the straw-man of comparing Moses, whom Jews do not regard as perfect, to Muhammad, seen by Muslims as a perfect exemplar for all people for all times to follow?
88 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
For this reason alone, it is not unwarranted to subject Muhammad to modern standards which he clearly does not meet.
199.
Mosizzle Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 11:51 am
Bob, Jews regards Moses to be superior to the Prophet Muhammad.
200.
JustBob Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
But not as a perfect exemplar for all Jews for all times.
201.
NassirH Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
But not as a perfect exemplar for all Jews for all times This fallacious argument will be addressed in a future article, hence the following in the article you didnt read. Many of the counter-arguments raised by our opponents will be addressed in further editions of this series. I initially had planned on releasing the entire Understanding Jihad Series as one mega-article. Having realized that this would be well over one hundred pages long, I decided to heed the advice of LW readers who requested that my articles be split into parts so as to be easier to digest. This decision comes with the regret that many of my responses to the trite counter-arguments I know the Islam-bashers are itching to use will be published at a later date.
202.
Danios Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
^ Yes, this very weak argument will be thoroughly refuted in a future part of the series. It is very, very weak.
203.
Danios Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
I have studied the Islamophobic arguments very deeply. In order to refute them thoroughly, one must peel away at each layer of the conspiracy. The conspiracy is like an onion, so one must
89 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
start from the outside and peel away each layer of lies. Whenever I refute one particular layer of lies, Islamophobes will not defend it. If their arguments are sound, why dont they defend it instead of moving goalposts? For example, they claim that Muhammad was the most intolerant, violent, and warlike prophet ever. OK, thats an argument. Now stick by it or concede defeat if refuted on that particular point. When I prove that Moses was more violent, then why not defend your initial statement (that Muhammad was the most intolerant, violent, and warlike)instead of moving to the next trite argument, i.e. that Muhammad is revered as perfect by Muslims whereas Moses is not by Jews. This pattern has quickly emerged when the Islamophobes reply to my articles. They will jump to the next layer of lies. But thenrest assuredI will peel away *that* layer. Then they will jump to the next layer. And so on and so forth. But eventually, I will have destroyed the entire onion of lies. And thats exactly what I did with the issue of dhimmitude. It was a very carefully planned series of refutations. They have nothing left now when it comes to dhimmitude. Every substantial argument has been refuted on that topic. The same will occur with this topic of jihad and violence in Islam.
204.
Danios Says:
March 12th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
Question for Islamophobes: Have you conceded this particular layer of the onion, namely that Moses was far more violent and warlike than Muhammad? Do you concede defeat on this point? Yes or no? Try not changing the argument.
205.
Reas Ekberg Says:

To Danios and Islamphobe. Apart from your debate of less violent and more violent, I may point out that Muhammad was asked in Quran 2:19 that: ! ! 0O8qpM O h CE:8 qp/ h@'=< E/%9O 0O.: CE:[ Q]A >2 @E/%n o ! ! Fight for the cause of God, with those who ght with you, but do not transgress, for God does not love the transgressors. (2:190)
90 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
It is evident that Muhammad followed the instructions and fought with only those who came to ght with him. He fought for cause of Allah and not economic considerations etc. He did not transgress. Same instructions were given to Moses as per Quran. Moses followed the instructions and fought with only those who came to ght with him. He fought for the case of Allah and did not ght for socio economic considerations. Moses did not transgress. It is obvious that when a messenger of Allah reaches to people with the message, he nds resistance and reaction as we see in case of Jesus Christ. He also declared that he came with a sword. Therefore a war is evident. This reaction/resistance is proved from Quran. When a more authentic and protected evidence is available, we dont need history, Old Testament and any other source material. The chapters in the Old Testament are not undisputed even for the Jews and Christians. It may not be mistaken that I am refuting your article. It is strictly according to OT and is an academic exercise. If you accept this observation, you have to believe Quran as reliable. This you have to see!!!
206.
Jack Says:
March 13th, 2011 at 10:19 pm
But eventually, I will have destroyed the entire onion of lies. Yup. And then they start all over from the beginning again. Like nothing ever happened. Oh, the joys of being a bigot! But anyway, I like the argument. I think youre right. Moses (well the Moses of legend, anyway) was more violent than Muhammad, and I think you showed that quite nicely. Muhammad never ordered everything, man, woman and child be killed, including livestock. Moses did. He also commanded his own kinsmen to be slaughtered when they committed idolatry. According to the book of Exodus (Ex. 32:26-28), the Levites killed three thousand souls that day, until the Lords anger was satised, and as a reward the tribe of Levi was elevated to the priesthood.
207.
Christian Says:
YOU ARE TROUBLE WITH A CAPITAL T. YOU ARE Radicals.the Quran has taken excerpts from the bible and made it their Q/Bible. The Muslims have killed many over the Centuriesthey are NOT Lily white. I will take Moses over Muhammad any dayhe is only a human.
91 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
208.
MartelHammer Says:
I guess no one would be interested in the fact that Jesus Christ never killed anybody? Lets just stick to Moses and the brutish Old Testament. Never mind the fact that half the Koran is just blatant plagiarism of a fairy tale anyway. The whole thing is hogwash.
209.
IK Says:
You began this article by saying that the Muslims of today should not be judged by the violence of Muhammad. He lived in a different time with different accepted norms and moral considerations. Its a shame you dont give the Jews the same treatment, and instead frequently compare the modern violence of Israel with that of Moses. The truth is that both side have done shameful things, not worthy of Gods love. Referencing ancient history is hardly helpful when the ultimate aim should be reconciliation, and recognising each other as fellow descendants of Abraham.
210.
Sam Seed Says:

May 10th, 2011 at 8:59 am
@MartelHammer Says: March 25th, 2011 at 5:55 am I guess no one would be interested in the fact that Jesus Christ never killed anybody? Lets just stick to Moses and the brutish Old Testament. Never mind the fact that half the Koran is just blatant plagiarism of a fairy tale anyway. The whole thing is hogwash. The Quran is not plagiarised from the Bible. As the Quran challenges the reader Or they may say He forged it. Say Bring ye then ten Surahs forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah! if ye speak the truth!Chapter 11 vs. 13.
211. @IK
Sam Seed Says:

May 10th, 2011 at 9:06 am
You began this article by saying that the Muslims of today should not be judged by the violence of Muhammad. He lived in a different time with different accepted norms and moral considerations. Its a shame you dont give the Jews the same treatment, and instead frequently compare the modern violence of Israel with that of Moses. The truth is that both side have
92 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
done shameful things, not worthy of Gods love. Referencing ancient history is hardly helpful when the ultimate aim should be reconciliation, and recognising each other as fellow descendants of Abraham. No, we on loonwatch do not frequently compare the modern violence of Israel with that of Moses. It is Islamophobes and people like Robert Spencer that are always attributing atrocities committed by Muslims to Islam and the Quran. So this article was a debunking of the double standards used by Islam-bashers and clearly shows the bias against the Quran.
212.
Khushboo Says:
May 10th, 2011 at 9:20 am
Martel, you obviously havent read the Quran so you dont know WTH youre talking about!
213.
Khushboo Says:
May 10th, 2011 at 9:31 am
Christian, Muhammad is only human too you moron! Hes not perfect. We never said he was but he was a peaceful, loving man who put up with psychos like you everyday until he had to nally ght back to DEFEND himself and his people. Why dont you tell us how many more Muslims have been killed by Christians, even today, eh? Dont be a hypocrite! Ill give you some time to google search.
214.
IbnAbuTalib Says:
May 10th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Martel: Never mind the fact that half the Koran is just blatant plagiarism of a fairy tale anyway. No wonder the Quran is so violent! It is plagiarized from the bible which is violent!
215.
mustafarama Says:
June 22nd, 2011 at 5:13 pm
(What the Israelites and Israelis have in common) To danios: As far as I know,and according to an Arabic translation of the Bible which I have, and according to our Quran, Moses did not enter Palestine. The Israelites under Moses leadership and on his orders refused to enter Palestine and ght its inhabitants, because they were severe ghters jabbaareen as they said to Moses and as it occurred in Arabi in the Quran. Because the Israelites disobeyed Moses order, and as punishment from God, he made them get lost in Sinai for forty years. My Arabic Bible says that Aaron and Moses both died out of
93 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Palestine, Maybe Jordan. The Quran says nothing about Moses in Palestine.It says that after Moses death, David killed Goliath and Solomon succeeded David. As for the atrocities of the Israellites against the Palestinians when entering Palestine through Jericho, with the help of a prostitute and blowing ram horns that caused Jericho walls to fall, the Arabic translation says what Danios said about killing men, women, childen and asses by the edge of the sword. This is also found in an English version of the Bible I found on the Internet. The old Israelites atrocities against the Palestinians,whether commited during Moses period or during another subsequent leader era are very similar to what the Jews did in 1948 when they massacred tens of Palestinian cities and villages, killed thousands, atened 500 Palestinian villages, and made 700,000 powerless Palestinians refugees.Briey, the Israelites and the Israelis were and are alien aggressive bloody strangers. To live in peace and save their own blood, the Israelis of 21st century, had better go back to their original homes. We dont want to kill them. Let them save their own blood and ours. 63 years of killings, with American and Western support, is a sufcient lesson for Zionists. Coexixtence has proved to be impossible. They should take their gear and quit. Nivada desert, Alaska or the Antarctica are recommended places. There, they will live in peace without threats or enemies. They will have the chance to show us their genius in land reclamation and building settlements.
216.
mustafarama Says:
June 22nd, 2011 at 5:30 pm
(What the Israelites and Israelis have in common: after corrections) To Danios: As far as I know, and according to an Arabic translation of the Bible which I have, and according to our Quran, Moses did not enter Palestine. The Israelites under Moses leadership and on his orders refused to enter Palestine and ght its inhabitants, because they were severe ghters jabbaareen as they described them to Moses and as it occurred in Arabic in the Quran. Because the Israelites disobeyed Moses order, and as punishment from God, he made them get lost in Sinai for forty years. My Arabic Bible says that Aaron and Moses both died out of Palestine, Maybe Jordan. The Quran says nothing about Moses in Palestine. It says that after Moses death, David killed Goliath and Solomon succeeded David. As for the atrocities of the Israelites against the Palestinians when entering Palestine through Jericho, with the help of a prostitute and blowing ram horns that caused Jericho walls to fall, the Arabic translation says what Danios said about killing men, women, children and asses by the edge of the sword. This is also found in an English version of the Bible I found on the Internet. The old Israelites atrocities against the Palestinians, whether committed during Moses period or during another subsequent leader era are in essence very similar to what the Jews did in 1948 against the Palestinians when they massacred tens of Palestinian cities and villages, killed thousands of them, attened 500 Palestinian villages, and made 700,000 powerless Palestinians refugees. 1. Briey, the Israelites and the Israelis were and are alien aggressive bloody strangers to the region. To live in peace and save their own blood, the Israelis of 21st century, had better go back to their original homes. We dont want to kill them. Let them save their own blood and ours. 63 years of killings, with American and Western support, is a sufcient lesson for
94 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Zionists. Coexistence and peace have proved to be impossible. They should take their gear and quit. Nevada desert, Alaska or the Antarctica are recommended places. There, they will live in peace without threats or enemies. They will have the chance to show us their genius in land reclamation and building settlements.
217.
Garo Says:
July 11th, 2011 at 11:33 pm
When the trends in the country are so ominously posing against Islam and Muslim Americans,it is not a time to turn the other cheek,or try to prove how peaceful and tolerant Islam is(no Islamophobe believes you, anyway),but a time to meet the challenge head-on. And thats what Danios has been doing,and correctly so,since I have started following his writings for the last three years and counting. The beauty of all his efforts is the obvious fact that he holds no animosity towards Judaism and Christianity as integrated two seperat but integrated religions. In a sense,he reminds me of Mahatma Gandhi who forced the British out of India, but he never hated them for once. Read his biography. I do not believe in putting up with the Islamophobes,but challenge them in every legitimate way under my disposal.Period. Thas why I deeply comprehend what Danios is attempting to do and also thats why I profoundly appreciate his thorough and meticulous efforts. I do hope he will continue such efforts until the last breath he may breath. No kidding!!
218.
Garo Says:
July 12th, 2011 at 1:03 am
To those who think that being Muslims dictates to put-up with the endless abuses being committed by the politically motivated hard core Zionists and their hypocritical supporters of the Christian Zionists against Islam and Muslims,is the way to follow,in order to win the abusers over to their sides,are living in a delusional world. Reasons: ~ The obsession the Islamophobes possess against Islam is simply incurable. I say this from direct experiences with some of them,in yesteryears. ~ Some Islamophobes have publiclly called to nuke Mecca and Medinah. It is delusional to think you may win those kind of people over to your side. No way. ~ Some Islamophobes have called to collect all American Muslims and force them into concentration camps. It is delusional to think that you can win those kind of people over to your side. No way. ~ Some Islamophobes have called to invade all Islamic countries and convert its inhabitat Muslims to Christianity by force. It is delusional to think you can win such kind of people over
95 of 105 1/25/12 12:15 AM
to your side. No way. If the above list is insufcient to spur you to stand up and challenge the bastards,just allocate some times and listen to some Radios Hate Talk Shows,in your locality. You may be shocked by what you hear. No kidding!!
219.
don Says:
August 4th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Hey, just a quibble from an atheist, but Moses predates the New Testament, Jesus, and the Christian era. I mean, one could conjoin Mohammed, Marx, and Mao in their collective search for universal justice for all, but Moses and the semitic god of the Israelites (which was probably borrowed from the Pharos)? In other words, Moses has been dead for three thousand years, has been out of date for two thousand years as a legal religious paradigm for organizing modern society, something that cant be said for the Koran and Muslims who follow the Koran as authoritative and having precedent. Seems to me you comparisons should be with Jesus riding the cross (a Roman torture and execution device) and Mohammed riding his war horse, sword in hand, doing jihad. Or is that being too Islamophobic?a rather partisan term coined by people with a stake in the current ghts.
220.
muhad Says:
September 1st, 2011 at 7:10 am
i do not beleive with your god
221.
muhad Says:
the Canaanites and then killed them all, in what can only be called genocide (which I documented here). Yet, here we have a Christian using this same verse on a cutesy-looking
222.
Nerses Says:
September 4th, 2011 at 12:16 am
@Danios Moses and the Israelites then massacred the inhabitants of sixty different cities: Uh, no. Moses died before the Israelites left the wilderness. Duh. Thats basic Old Testament history.
96 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
It is very, very obvious that Moses himself as an individual never committed any violence, whereas Muhammad did. Muhammad went to war. Moses didnt. Neither did Abraham. Interesting, huh?
223.
Nerses Says:
September 4th, 2011 at 1:12 am
Whoa, wait, I got that totally wrong. Moses had the Midianites killed just because they sent beautiful to go seduce some Jews into idolatry. Moses also just decided to steal Ogs land, killing that whole tribe. And at least twice Moses had large numbers of Jews killed for various reasons. Still, though, Danios, you do seem to be getting events mixed up that happened under Moses leadership with those that happened after Moses leadership and death when the Jews nally entered the Promised Land. Thats really when the slaughter began. Muhammad denitely was kinder to the people of Mecca. He just forced them all to convert to Islam.
224.
BetEl Says:
September 14th, 2011 at 8:48 pm
The proto-Christian (whatever Christian during the formative period meant: Jesus and his Jerusalem Assembly sure as hell didnt refer to themselves as Christian that was a later monicker attached to the goyim peoples ascribing to the Paulian enterprise) movement of those days were violent. Recall the cleansing of the temple where Jesus overtly attacked the merchants by force (and threat of force). He even armed himself with a self-fashioned whip whom he had, appearantly without any military knowlegde according to the general Christian appreciation, stringed together with pieces of chord. He then went on to overturn the tables of the shop owners, eventually driving them out with the whip at the ready, like with cattle. Put in the context of todays church sermons, if a man with a whip (or rather any type of modern weaponry) inged the doors to the church open, wagging around his personal choice of weaponry, screaming to the church attendees to remove themselves: making sure to turn over every row of benches: that would without a doubt be considered as an act of violence to say the least. Not to mention the fact that he ordered his talmidim to obtain sword[s] (a direct penal offence under Roman legislative law: a jew was not allowed to carry heat) and ordered them to sell their clothes if they could not afford any with emphasis on any since the act usually are considered symbolic: pertaining to a prophecy. But he did use a plural inectional form, not talking of a symbolic sword.
97 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
As well, Robert Eisenman doesnt fall short in describing Jesus own intimate hosts of disciples as violent men. He says: This reference to the Men of Violence, also found in the Damascus Document and the Habakkuk Pesher at Qumran, is normally interpreted to mean what in other contexts goes by the name of Zealots or Sicarri. Cross-referring to Matt 11:12,,, In addition, Romans crucied people who they opined to be a threat to the establishment: i.e revolutionaries and other political adversaries. They did not care about religious gures claiming to be messiahs and more importantly: they did not bestow upon the jewry any leverage to press for legal action against people they for some reason or another felt was breaching their customs. Oh and by the way, the two men that were crucied with Jesus were not thieves, they were sicarri /Avraham
225.
Wandering Jew Says:

November 27th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
This is a great critical analysis of the genocide in the Torah. If only more muslims would make a similar critical analysis of the Koran. Let us seek the best in the classical sources, and not the worst.
226.
Bob Says:
January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 am
In defense of Prophet Moses, peace be upon him: he was not a violent man and he did not engage in genocides. The Torah does state that, but I do not believe that the Torah any longer represents the word of God. It has probably been edited a great deal since its original version, in order to justify the behavior of later generations of Jews. Moses himself was not as portrayed in the Torah.
22 Trackbacks For This Post

1. Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper Says:
[...] Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? [...]
98 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
2. Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? Exploring Life, The Universe and Everything Says:
[...] Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? Posted in Christian extremism, Islam, Zionism by Paul Williams on March 9, 2011 This article is part 1 of LoonWatchs Understanding Jihad Series [...] 3. Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | Spencer Watch Says:
[...] Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? [...] 4. The Understanding Jihad Series: Is Islam More Likely Than Other Religions to Encourage Violence? | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper Says:
[...] of religious tolerance and pluralism, it is with great reservation in my heart that I publish the Understanding Jihad Series, which compares violence and war in the Judeo-Christian tradition to the jihad of Islam. [...] 5. Anti-Semitism = Islamophobia The Accidental Theologist Says:
March 15th, 2011 at 12:26 am
[...] and do the same with the Bible, which you will nd ten times worse, with repeated calls for the destruction of whole peoples. Only the dumbest, most literal, hate-lled fundamentalist, Jewish or Muslim, takes the rules of [...] 6. Who was the Most Violent Prophet in History? | Spencer Watch Says:
March 16th, 2011 at 10:07 am
[...] Most readers will immediately assume it was the Prophet Muhammad, thanks to a decades long wave of Islamophobia and a sustained campaign of anti-Muslim propaganda. But heres a tip: it wasnt Muhammad. Not by a long shot. In fact, Moses had Muhammad beat by far. [...] 7. The Suicide Bomber Prophet Islamophobia-An Antidote %O,q:" A0 Z :@Says:
[...] In part 1 of LoonWatchs Understanding Jihad Series, we traced the violence of the Bible to the Jewish prophet Moses, who submitted heathen nations to what can only be described as genocide. In part 2, we moved on to Moses divinely ordained successor, Joshua, who was arguably the most violent prophet in history. But the holy killing did not stop there. [...] 8. What the Quran-bashers Dont Want You to Know About the Bible | Spencer Watch Says:
[...] weve documented some of these genocide-glorifying passages in our earlier articles: see part 1, part 2, and part [...]
99 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
9. Jesus Loves His Enemiesand Then Kills Them All Says:

May 13th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
[...] in the Judeo-Christian West. When it is pointed out that the Biblical prophetsincluding Moses, Joshua, Samson, Saul, David, among many otherswere far more violent and warlike (and even [...] 10. The Bibles Prescriptive, Open-Ended, and Universal Commandments to Wage Holy War and Enslave Indels (II) | Spencer Watch Says:
May 16th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
[...] psalm calls for God to do to the enemies of Israel what was done to the people of Midian. As we read earlier, the Israelites killed every Midianite man, and enslaved their women and children. The passage [...] 11. Islam more violent than Judaism & Christianity? Beard, Book, & Bread Says:
May 17th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
[...] Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? [...] 12. The But Thats Just the Old Testament! Cop-Out | Spencer Watch Says:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:06 am
[...] showcased violence in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) in parts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 of this Series. Even though this list of Biblical verses was hardly [...] 13. My God is Better Than Yours (I): Christians Calling Muslims Mohammedans a Case of Pot Calling Kettle Black | Spencer Watch Says:
June 22nd, 2011 at 10:16 am
[...] claims are not well-founded, and weve thoroughly refuted them (see parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 of the Understanding Jihad Series). Clearly, the Biblical [...] 14. Islam more violent than Judaism & Christianity? | beardbookbread Says:
July 20th, 2011 at 10:54 am
[...] Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? [...] 15. Pamela Geller Ready to Start Holy War Over Mistranslated Bumper Sticker | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper Says:
August 28th, 2011 at 10:06 am
[...] the Canaanites and then killed them all, in what can only be called genocide (which I documented here). Yet, here we have a Christian using this same verse on a cutesy-looking [...] 16. The Bibles Yahweh, a War-God?: Called Lord of Armies Over 280 Times in the Bible and Lord of Peace Just Once (I-II) Middle East atemporal Says:
August 30th, 2011 at 10:30 am
100 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
[...] reassuring platitudes were shattered in LoonWatchs Understanding Jihad Series, (see parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8). Clearly, the Bible is more violent than the Quran, and the [...] 17. The Bibles Yahweh, a War-God?: Called Lord of Armies Over 280 Times in the Bible and Lord of Peace Just Once (I) | Spencer Watch Says:
[...] reassuring platitudes were shattered in LoonWatchs Understanding Jihad Series, (see parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8). Clearly, the Bible is more violent than the Quran, and the [...] 18. The Top Five Ways Jewish Law Justies Killing Civilians; #3: Promoting Ethnic Cleansing (I) Middle East atemporal Says:
October 8th, 2011 at 8:33 pm
[...] considering that this is an overwhelmingly prevalent theme throughout the Bible? (See parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6-i, 6-ii, 6-iii, 6-iv, 7, 8, 9-i, and 9-ii of LoonWatchs [...] 19. The Top Five Ways Jewish Law Justies Killing Civilians; #3: Promoting Ethnic Cleansing (I) | Spencer Watch Says:
October 9th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
[...] considering that this is an overwhelmingly prevalent theme throughout the Bible? (See parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6-i, 6-ii, 6-iii, 6-iv, 7, 8, 9-i, and 9-ii of LoonWatchs [...] 20. The Top Five Ways Jewish Law Justies Killing Civilians Anti Islam: FAQ 99 Says:
October 18th, 2011 at 11:05 am
[...] proved these claims completely bunk by showing the Bible to be far more violent than the Quran,the Biblical prophets to be far more violent than the Prophet Muhammad, and Yahweh of the Bible to be far more violent than Allah of the Quran. (See [...] 21. What I Bet You Didnt Know About the Christian Just War Tradition (I) | Spencer Watch Says:
October 26th, 2011 at 10:11 am
[...] sources, however, this does not bear out: the Bible is far more violent than the Quran (see parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6-i, 6-ii, 6-iii, 6-iv, 7, 8, 9-i, and 9-ii of LoonWatchs [...] 22. Jesus Loves His Enemiesand Then Kills Them All Exploring Life, The Universe and Everything Says:
December 11th, 2011 at 7:13 am
[...] in the Judeo-Christian West. When it is pointed out that the Biblical prophets including Moses, Joshua,Samson, Saul, David, among many otherswere far more violent and warlike (and even [...]
Leave a Reply
101 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Name (required)
Mail (will not be published) (required)
Website
Submit Comment
POPULAR COMMENTS FEATURED TAG CLOUD All Terrorists are Muslims...Except the 94% that Aren't Pamela Geller: The Looniest Blogger Ever Spencer Distorts Egyptian Society; Spreads Interfaith Bigotry Islamophobes Build Faux Memorial for Muslim Victims on Land that Muslims Cannot Own Robert Spencer of JihadWatch Becomes Desperate Against LoonWatch Jesus Loves His Enemies...and Then Kills Them All The Understanding Jihad Series: Is Islam More Likely Than Other Religions to Encourage Violence? Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? Should Canada ban Islamic face veils?
102 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Muslims and Christians Condemn Baghdad Church Massacre
CATEGORIES Recent Comments

Young & Free on In Police Training, a Dark Film on U.S. Muslims Hajj Dawud on Santorum: Equality doesnt come from Islam but from God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob khushboo on Two More Southern States Join the Anti-Shariah Craze! khushboo on On the Outlandish Claim That There is No Islamophobia Nur Alia on Santorum: Equality doesnt come from Islam but from God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob
Share LoonWatch
Bookmark on Delicious Digg this Recomend on Facebook Share on Reddit Share with Stumblers Tweet this
Tags
9/11
Amago Anti-Muslim Anti-Semitism Atlas Shrugs Barack Obama Bible Bigotry CAIR Christianity
Europe FBI Florida France Geert Wilders GOP Ground Zero Mosque
Hate Hate Crime Islam

New York
Islamophobia Israel Jihad Jihad Watch JihadWatch Judaism Mosque Muslim Muslims
Palestine
Pamela Geller Pamela Geller Watch Quran racism Right-wing Robert Spencer Robert Spencer Watch Sharia SIOA Terrorism UK Violence What if they were Muslim Zionism
103 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
ARCHIVES Browse
About Ads Help Promote Loonwatch.com! Archive Contact Register Send Us a Tip Site Map
Blogroll
Anti-Hate: Krapuul (Netherlands) Bartholomews Notes on Religion Chasing Evil Euroblog: Yellow Stars FAIR (Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting) Fake Ex-Muslims Gates of Vienna Vs. The World Vs. LGF Glenn Greenwald Hate Hurts America Islamophobia Today: e-News Magazine Max Blumenthal Media Matters Muslims Wearing Things My Best Friend is Muslim ObsessionForHate.com Plunderbund Richard Silverstein: Tikun Olam Sadly, No! Smearcasters SpencerWatch SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) WhatIfTheyWereMuslim? Copyright loonwatch.com. follow: Become Our Facebook friend RSS
104 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM
Tweet with Us Visit SpencerWatch.com Subscribe to our YouTube Channel
105 of 105
1/25/12 12:15 AM

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad?

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Description:

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad?

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.

Categorized | Feature, Loon Politics

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad?

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

This article is part 1 of LoonWatchs Understanding Jihad Series.

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

226 Comments For This Post

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Christians who are actually considered apostates.

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Muslim. I expected better from you, Danios.

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Nur Alia Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

books. BTW, to me all prophets are equal.

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Darn, the part fell off

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

the Prophet Moses actions were justied at the time What?

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Sam Seed Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Oh Danios got in before me Im not him!

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Can someone at LW conrm they received my e-mail? Thanks.

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Sam Seed Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

EJ, we got your email. Thanks, well be getting back to you.

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

Warrior Prophet: Moses or Muhammad? | loonwatch.com

Oops, I forgot the hug for Danios. Peace!