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The Greek Word Prototokos and its Meaning at Colossians 1:15 (lordship, tradition, Jehovah)

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06-04-2009, 12:30 AM antredd Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 2,122 posts, read 1,507,449 times Reputation: 774

The Greek Word Prototokos and its Meaning at Colossians 1:15 A JW said that she doesn't agree with alot of my reasoning. I am asking you does my reasoning make sense in my explanation of what prototokos means at Colossians 1:15? My reasoning is behind whether or not the Greek word prototokos used for firstborn in Colossian 1:15 means that Jesus is the firstborn of creation or it means that He has preeminence over creation since ALL things or (all creation) were created through, for, and by Him. Just from reading the context of Colossians Chapter 1, Paul makes it clear that God appointed or placed Jesus over creation. At a certain point in history, Jesus became flesh. He possessed a truly human nature, and thus was a creature. I wouldn't disagree with Jesus being part of creation. So the fact that Jesus can be shown to be a member of creation tells us nothing whatsoever about His pre-existence before he became flesh, nor proves that he was created by God before all of creation, or sheds any light on his ultimate identity or nature. The burden of proof is on the JW to show where the bible teaches that Jesus was created or to ask more directly, where in the bible does it explicitly state that God created Jesus first and then created all things through him? My reasoning behind Jesus not being first creature created by God is that the term prototokos doesn't require the first in timefirst in seriesor mean first person born in a group or family. Is that true in all cases? No it is not and Scripture proves this. If we look at Jeremiah 31:9, we see an example which really shows how the most prominent to God was actually called "my firstborn" (Ephraim). Although Manassah was actually the firstborn child(Genesis 41:50-52), God chose Ephraim and thus says "as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn" (Jer. 31:9). It must be noted that God's choice of Ephraim over Manassah actually went clearly back to the literal sons of Joseph, and this is when the choice was actually made, and made over the initial

protest of Joseph even. After giving Ephraim the precedence Jacob predicts that the younger will be greater than the older and so we read: "thus he kept putting Ephraim before Manassah" (Genesis 48:20). Not only did he gain the prominence over Manassah but again to God, he was the "firstborn" not Manassah. At Colossians 1:15, Paul rules out any thought of Jesus being the "first created". He gives as the grounds for the application of this title that Christ was hands on responsible for all creation in the first place and hands on responsible for it's reconciliation in the last place. Paul makes it plain that Jesus,"he is before all things", and that is the same thing John tells us in John 1:3, right after identifying Jesus as "theos". John says everything came into existence through "theos" and that there were no exceptions not to even one thing. This means that even the first thing that ever came into existence did so through Jesus. Scripture also reveals that Christ was appointed heir of all things. Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Psalms 2:7-8 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. As we see here Psalms 2:7-8 is actually cited in the Hebrews context, but what do we read at Psalms 2:7-8? We can't read it any clearer, You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession. So how much difference is there between being placed... and being appointed? This idea can be expanded by reading Ps. 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Ps. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. After referencing Ps. 89:27 with Ps. 2:7, a person cannot miss the easy connection with Col. 1:15-17 where Paul likewise includes the same "...the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities." Jesus deserves the designation firstborn because as Paul said, He is before all things. This harmonizes with John 1:3, and this is even more clear when understood against the background of the Colossian heresy that Paul was clearly addressing to them. The Colossians were teaching that there were many mediators. Paul had to refute that false teaching by addressing to the Colossians that only Jesus could be the true Mediator. Thus, only Jesus could identify with both being truly human and truly God because Jesus knows what it's like to actually be both.

John 5:23 states that All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him. It is my prayer that JWs open their minds to the plain sense of Gods Word and be willing, against any earthly religious organization, to honor and esteem the Son just as they honor and only esteem the Father. JWs explain that the reason they use Gods name is to honor Him, yet the bible tells us that if we do not honor the Son just as we do the Father, we arent honoring the Father either. The reason we are told that all judgment has been committed to the Son is so that we may recognize His true and ultimate identity or nature. Who but the Creator, God-Jehovah, could be the judge of all creation? So if all judgment has been committed to the Son, who must He be? This forces one to really thing about it. Im NOT saying here that the Son is the Father or that the Father is the Son, but only that Jehovah ultimately includes the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are that single Authority in whose name believers were and are to be still baptized. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
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06-04-2009, 01:52 AM Ironmaw1776 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 6,599 posts, read 2,327,937 times Reputation: 669

Quote:

Originally Posted by antredd A JW said that she doesn't agree with alot of my reasoning. I am asking you does my reasoning make sense in my explanation of what prototokos means at Colossians 1:15? My reasoning is behind whether or not the Greek word prototokos used for firstborn in Colossian 1:15 means that Jesus is the firstborn of creation or it means that He has preeminence over creation since ALL things or (all creation) were created through, for, and by Him. Just from reading the context of Colossians Chapter 1, Paul makes it clear that God appointed or placed Jesus over creation. At a certain point in history, Jesus became flesh. He possessed a truly human nature, and thus was a creature. I wouldn't disagree with Jesus being part of creation. So the fact that Jesus can be shown to be a member of creation tells us nothing whatsoever about His preexistence before he became flesh, nor proves that he was created by God before all of creation, or sheds any light on his ultimate identity or nature. The burden of proof is on the JW to show where the bible teaches that Jesus was created or to ask more directly, where in the bible does it explicitly state that God created Jesus first and then created all things through him? My reasoning behind Jesus not being first creature created by God is that the term prototokos doesn't require the first in timefirst in seriesor mean first person born in a group or family. Is that true in all cases? No it is not and Scripture proves this. If we look at Jeremiah 31:9, we see an example which really shows how the most prominent to God was actually called "my firstborn" (Ephraim). Although Manassah was actually the firstborn child(Genesis 41:50-52), God chose Ephraim and thus says "as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn" (Jer. 31:9). It must be noted that God's choice of Ephraim over Manassah actually went clearly back to the literal sons of Joseph, and this is when the choice was actually made, and made over the initial protest of Joseph even. After giving Ephraim the precedence Jacob predicts that the younger will be greater than the older and so we read: "thus he kept putting Ephraim before Manassah" (Genesis 48:20). Not only did he gain the prominence over Manassah but again to God, he was the "firstborn" not Manassah. At Colossians 1:15, Paul rules out any thought of Jesus being the "first created". He gives as the grounds for the application of this title that Christ was hands on responsible for all creation in the first place and hands on responsible for it's reconciliation in the last place. Paul makes it plain that Jesus,"he is before all things", and that is the same thing John tells us in John 1:3, right after identifying Jesus as "theos". John says everything came into existence through "theos" and that there were no exceptions not to even one thing. This means that even the first thing that ever came into existence did so through Jesus.

Scripture also reveals that Christ was appointed heir of all things. Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Psalms 2:7-8 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. As we see here Psalms 2:7-8 is actually cited in the Hebrews context, but what do we read at Psalms 2:7-8? We can't read it any clearer, You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession. So how much difference is there between being placed... and being appointed? This idea can be expanded by reading Ps. 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Ps. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. After referencing Ps. 89:27 with Ps. 2:7, a person cannot miss the easy connection with Col. 1:15-17 where Paul likewise includes the same "...the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities." Jesus deserves the designation firstborn because as Paul said, He is before all things. This harmonizes with John 1:3, and this is even more clear when understood against the background of the Colossian heresy that Paul was clearly addressing to them. The Colossians were teaching that there were many mediators. Paul had to refute that false teaching by addressing to the Colossians that only Jesus could be the true Mediator. Thus, only Jesus could identify with both being truly human and truly God because Jesus knows what it's like to actually be both. John 5:23 states that All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him. It is my prayer that JWs open their minds to the plain sense of Gods Word and be willing, against any earthly religious organization, to honor and esteem the Son just as they honor and only esteem the Father. JWs explain that the reason they use Gods name is to honor Him, yet the bible tells us that if we do not honor the Son just as we do the Father, we arent honoring the Father either. The reason we are told that all judgment has been committed to the Son is so that we may

recognize His true and ultimate identity or nature. Who but the Creator, God-Jehovah, could be the judge of all creation? So if all judgment has been committed to the Son, who must He be? This forces one to really thing about it. Im NOT saying here that the Son is the Father or that the Father is the Son, but only that Jehovah ultimately includes the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are that single Authority in whose name believers were and are to be still baptized. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Also remember Jesus' prayer? John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world(kosmos/universe) was." This proves he existed before creation.
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06-04-2009, 07:10 AM effie g-tad Not a member Join Date: Jan 2009 4,513 posts, read 3,129,830 times Reputation: 732

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 Also remember Jesus' prayer? John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world(kosmos/universe) was." This proves he existed before creation. very beautiful.

it proves he belonged to a tradition of deep thinkers. (imho)

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06-04-2009, 07:05 PM antredd Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 2,122 posts, read 1,507,449 times Reputation: 774

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 Also remember Jesus' prayer? John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world(kosmos/universe) was." This proves he existed before creation. Wow, thank you for that Scripture.
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06-04-2009, 07:15 PM Ironmaw1776 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 6,599 posts, read 2,327,937 times Reputation: 669

Quote:

Originally Posted by antredd Wow, thank you for that Scripture.

Your welcome!
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03-23-2010, 11:57 PM seekingtheveiltobelifted Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 1 posts, read 2,879 times Reputation: 10

the JW do honor the son. If it was not for his willingness to surcome to the torturous death the he did for our sake we would still be offering blood sacrifices and we still would be condemend to die. idk how it is that you say the JW do not honor the Jehovah's son, Jesus. The JW try to imitate jesus in EVERYTHING. Jesus always honored his father. . .so then the JW honor his father, his god, our god, Jehovah
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03-26-2010, 05:57 AM shibata Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 1,243 posts, read 483,249 times Reputation: 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by antredd A JW said that she doesn't agree with alot of my reasoning. I am asking you does my reasoning make sense in my explanation of what prototokos means at Colossians 1:15? My reasoning is behind whether or not the Greek word prototokos used for firstborn in Colossian 1:15 means that Jesus is the firstborn of creation or it means that He has preeminence over creation since ALL things or (all creation) were created through, for, and by Him. Just from reading the context of Colossians Chapter 1, Paul makes it clear that God appointed or placed Jesus over creation.

Quite so, and a good translation shows what Paul meant here: 'Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.' Col 1:15 GNB Paul's very point here is that Jesus was not created. He was actually God himself, made flesh, and he was the effective cause of creation. Iow, if God had not known that he would love the world enough to die for its sins, he would never have created us. The word indicates only the privilege of the human firstborn transferred to deity, showing that the first son becomes the heir of everything. Those who are also sons of God are sons because Jesus died. This word is nothing to do with Jesus being born at Bethlehem. And why is God the heir? Because he came to earth as a man and took the blame and punishment for all of us. We don't realise the immensity of God's character and the importance of this. Words cannot suffice.
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03-26-2010, 06:12 AM shibata Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 1,243 posts, read 483,249 times Reputation: 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekingtheveiltobelifted the JW do honor the son. Arianist JWs would honor the Son if they honored the text. And not just here.
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12-05-2011, 05:15 PM stritt4 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 1 posts, read 118 times Reputation: 12

I don't believe that JW honor the Son by celebrating the day He died when in the end it was His resurrection that was the most important event. Had He not arose from the dead His death would have been in vain just as Buddah's or any other false God or idol you can think of. I married into a family of JW's. I am pentecostal. I am very used to these conversations and I don't remember Christ's actions while He was on Earth ever being to shun someone who had done wrong or was a sinner. My husband has been shunned for over 6 years now and because He is disfellowshipped, me and my children are also shunned and made to feel like we have the plague. I have not seen christian influence from any of the JW's I have encountered and in the end I do NOT believe that that honors the Son.
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