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PLAYING D&D WITH PORN STARS

...THERE ARE SEVERAL LARGE CHESTS IN THIS ROOM...

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 2012

ABOUT ME ZAK S H O LLY WO O D , C A L I F O RN I A , U N I T E D S TA TE S

Evil Mastermind from grognards.txt

Come out and play. I'm "fascinating" to you? Come over to the comments. We will have a conversation.

I'm Zak, I live in Hollywood. Most of the people I know in LA I know from being a porn "actor"--so they're porn stars and strippers. So that's who I play D&D with.

EDIT: I'm serious. We'll talk about games and what-all. That's what we do here, after all. I mean, if you want to just have this all be one way: I say something, you quietly mull it over in the corner that's fine, but I think we would all have some fun if we had a conversation about how games get talked about on the internet. I promise not to bite.

V I E W M Y C O M PL E TE PR O FI L E

IF YOU LIKE THIS BLOG YOU WILL LIKE THIS...

...so click on it and get one

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PEOPLE WHO WRITE A LOT OF STUFF ABOUT GAMES

EDIT: Listen: you can complain about how things work or you can try to fix them. I am right here, asking you how we can fix them. Oh, there's somebody saying "Hey why don't we do this via email and then put it on the net" totally cool with me. you can email me. I just don't know any other way to contact you. And why you? You seem like a decent person, altogether. Maybe.

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56 COMMENTS: OtspIII Feb 29, 2012 05:34 PM I've got to say, starting off a conversation on how games get talked about on the internet by telling someone to switch the conversation over onto your personal gameblog is a pretty rough first step. This is really something you yourself should

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take to grognards.txt. I guess you probably don't have a SA account? Reply

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Zak S @Sean

Feb 29, 2012 05:53 PM

1 month ago

Alright--Sean So here's what I feel like we got here: -A game. -A bunch of people who want to play the game one way. (Group A) -A bunch who want to play a different way. (Group B) -A bunch of people who will pretty much play any way. (Group C) Within A, B , and C we also have a bunch of dickheads (A2, B2, C2, etc) who whale on each other all day in forums. Like, group B2 (dickheads who want to play game in way #2) mostly just complain about what other dickheads say. They: - seek out the most extreme examples of what someone who isn't some not-them group says and whale on them for it--and often make the mistake of mistaking the part for the whole. -confuse the extremists with the whole group. Is this how you see all this edition war crap or do you see it another way? Reply Replies Sean D Feb 29, 2012 06:12 PM I honestly see "edition waring" as a bunch of bad apples who seem to have nothing better to do than draw metaphorical lines in the sand over which playstyle is better and truer to "Gary's Legacy" so they can be Right. And frankly, I believe that those types deserve nothing but mockery because they're trying to feel superior about pretending to be an elf. Believe me, I'd love for edition or playstyle "warriors" to just shut up and leave everyone else alone to enjoy themselves, but I know there's no way in hell that's going to happen. I have to laugh at them, otherwise I start screaming. Honestly? I don't give a shit which edition you play as long as you're enjoying yourself; I've played every edition and still have a OD&D Rules Cyclopedia. I play traditional games, indie games, and story games; they're all good. It's just when it turns into

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outright lies about game X versus game Y, or powertripping GMs, or people who bring their inappropriate sexual stuff to the table that I, personally, have a problem.

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MY PLAYERS

Mandy Morbid's Blog Zak S Feb 29, 2012 06:15 PM Kimberly Kane's Blog Satine Phoenix's Blog Connie's Twitter Bobbi Starr's Blog Frankie's Twitter Caroline Pierce's Twitter I feel like I agree with everything you just wrote. None of it sounds controversial to me. However, to be clear, so I can move on: Is there anything I wrote up there at Feb 29, 2012 05:53 PM that you disagree with?

Sean D Feb 29, 2012 06:22 PM Well, I think you divvied up the groups too much. To me, its: A: People who play games and enjoy them, and are overall decent people B: People who have to turn gaming into some bizarre "I'm better than you" thing, with a side of misogyny, or racism, or "if I rape the paladin does she fall" or other terrible shit. Group B is the smaller of the two, but they're also the loudest to the point where they make it harder for group A to enjoy themselves.

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Feb 29, 2012 06:30 PM

Ok, fair enough. I also think this: Because of the noise made by your Group B people, there is a lot of hostility and cliquishness that doesn't need to be there that spills over and makes it hard for reasonable people to have interesting, useful conversations about games because there are all these people acting like fuckheads. Would you agree with that?

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Sean D Feb 29, 2012 06:38 PM Not really. I've had some of the best, most interesting conversations about gaming come out grognards.txt.

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Ignoring the group B people is damn near impossible because they're everywhere, and once you know they're there you see them all over the place offline and on. I mock them because it's the only sane response to someone making a paladin fall because said paladin broke down a door to save people in a burning building because that's "breaking in", or someone acting like there's an actual conspiracy out to destroy "traditional gaming", or asks with a straight face how many spiders can fit in a drow's vagina. And yes, those are all things that happened. These are the group B people. I have to share the hobby with those guys. That doesn't mean I have to like or respect them.

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OtspIII Feb 29, 2012 06:39 PM In relation to grognards.txt, I think there is a little bit of the "finding the worst examples from a wide variety of People Not Like Us and attributing it to a single monolithic entity" problem going on, but it's mostly hyperbole and venting, and isn't nearly as bad as it might look from outside. I think a possibly more core issue is that when people discuss the problems between editions there are tons of people from A/B/C1 who will trot out certain half-baked talking points when discussing the good and bad points of various editions, but who haven't really thought about the topic enough to back up those talking points with more insightful analysis. 4e being like a video game or WoW is a good example: there are a bunch of actual interesting points you can discuss that are similar to that point. For example, does feeling like the game has explicit expectations as to what type of treasure/equipment you should be using at any given level somehow make the players feel like they have less agency? If so, is the answer just to obfuscate the expectations (which I feel like is what most previous editions of D&D more or less did) or to remove them entirely? The problem is that when someone says "4e sucks because it's basically just tabletop WoW" it has a bad habit of being an unanalyzed statement being thrown down more in an attempt to end conversation than to start it, where the person saying it is more repeating statements they've heard than actually sharing any of their own insights, and so can't really turn the statement into a conversation. Hearing this non-argument repeated

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2012 (43) February (17) Evil Mastermind from grognards.txt Hire Women.

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thousands of times, even by otherwise type-1 people, has made grognards.txt posters superirritable about lots of even fairly non-awful-person 4e criticisms.

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Zak S @Sean

Feb 29, 2012 06:43 PM

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I am not talking about Grognards.txt. I don't think any _entire forum_ is worth talking about since it;s full of people. Please register that you understand that I am not talking about grognards.txt and we can move on. If you think I covertly am for some reason, then say that.

Sean D Feb 29, 2012 06:46 PM Okay then. I do get the impression that you're trying to bait me into saying something here. If you're not, then I'm sorry for getting that impression.

Zak S Ok, listen,

Feb 29, 2012 06:52 PM

January (26) 2011 (340) 2010 (285)

I'm really not. Mostly grognards.txt is kinda just a wordwall that doesn't have any particular valence to me and refers to a lot of things I don't read--like I don't take its existence as an insult or anything. It's just another game forum to me, it just so happens that you are there and you say stuff so that's where I found you. I don't have some delusion that I am going to stop the forum from existing or make everyone nice to everyone. I want to talk to you about specific things that you said and I want to start on a foundation of things we can agree about before we move on to what (if anything) we disagree about. Is that ok? Can we do that?

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Sean D Feb 29, 2012 06:58 PM Uh, sure?

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I guess I'm just still confused about why I got called out out of everybody.

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Zak S @Sean D

Feb 29, 2012 07:04 PM

you got called out of everybody because you said something that: -I understood, -seemed like you were speaking honestly, not hyperbolically, and -was about me Plus you seem like a basically reasonable person. Do you understand me and believe me?

Sean D Feb 29, 2012 07:10 PM Okay, fair enough then.

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:13 PM

Now, you have said (and I believe you) that you have had useful conversations with people on Grognards.txt about games. I would like to have useful conversations with anyone there who is cool about games. Especially because a lot of them seem interested in 4e and I play 4e. Also, anybody else on the internet who plays 4e and wants to talk about how games are constructed and can be GMed. Do you believe me when I say that?

Sean D Feb 29, 2012 07:16 PM Why wouldn't I?

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:24 PM

I have often found that when people say or do something on the internet, their motive is presumed to be something other than what it actually is. Anyway, do you believe me when I say what I said up at Feb 29, 2012 07:13 PM?

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Sean D Feb 29, 2012 07:26 PM Yes I do.

Zak S Ok.

Feb 29, 2012 07:30 PM

So speaking as someone interested in talking about games it's frustrating to know you are pissing people off but not know why. Because that means you can't change your behavior and bring them into the conversation and know more stuff about games and be smarter. Does it make sense to you that I could be pissing people off and not know why? Does it make sense to you that--if my motive is to talk to lots of people about games--I would want to try to fix this?

Sean D Feb 29, 2012 07:35 PM Okay, yes I get where you're coming from.

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:46 PM

2 part thing here: 1. So, I have noticed a phenomenon: People who play the same games as me in roughly the same way (like, say Jeff Rients and noisms) tend to not take statements I make and get pissed about them--even when we disagree. They tend to ask questions when we disagree and we have a conversation about that until we figure out where and why we disagree and whether it matters and we all get smarter because we had a conversation about games. People who--I assume--don't play games the same way I do assume the worst when they see something I wrote and get rrrrrreal mad at me and generally _do not_ come to me with questions when we have a disagreement and tend to just assume I am a jerk and not have a conversation about it and slink off and complain to third parties. I have observed this phenomenon--you can say that

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you have or say you haven't. ____ 2. Assuming this phenomenon exists, I think there are 4 plausible explanations: A-Me and people who play like me have a shared language and a shared set of assumptions and so we don't realize we are accidentally saying INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE things from the point of view of people who roll in a different way. B-These different playstyle divisions result in sort of separate social cliques and these social cliques are simply suspicious of one another and don't assume good faith when having conversations with people from other cliques. C-A little of both A and B. D-I am evil and seek to destroy people who pretend to be elves in ways I do not, and these people know it. ____

So, are you with me on the existence of Observed Phenomenon 1? And do you have any ideas as to the nature of Attempts To Explain it A, B, C, and/or D ?

Sean D Feb 29, 2012 08:15 PM Part 1: Yes, I've observed that, although not with the people you mention (I don't know who they are). I think the main reason is that experience has taught most of us that gamers do NOT like to be disagreed with. You see it at pretty much every forum: RPGNet, RPGSte, ENWorld, SA, etc. I think a large part of it is that we all get so used to being attacked over stupid shit most people start to assume everything is an attack of one sort or another, with a side dose of "My way is the One True Way"-ism. Part 2: It's the combination of A and B, with a big leaning towards B. Forum and group cultures count for a lot; what's kosher for your group may or may not be kosher for me; I'll be honest, I'd probably be uncomfortable playing in your group. That's not a critisism, it's just a difference of "culture". Things just get heated when a person brings the expectations of their culture into a different one and

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neither side wants to back down because it's a "sign of weakness" or some shit.

Zak S @Sean

Feb 29, 2012 08:23 PM

Ok, awesome, now we're getting somewhere. Now I can't do anything about B (not quickly anyway) but I think A is something I can work on and, via working on A, we can slowwwwwwly make B less of an issue. Here's an example (I think) of A: "Player skill vs, Character skill" To me and to people who post in the comments on this blog, this is a totally normal phrase to use. No-one gets pissed off. It doesn't seem like an insult to us--even to those of use who play 4e or whatever. Yet I realized after talking to people in other universes of gaming, this phrase pisses off/triggers /is-highly-debatable to a lot of people who don't come around here. I don't want to piss them off. It achieves nothing. And if it pisses them off, it may be that there are good _reasons_ it pisses them off that the rest of us don't realize because rather than having a conversation about the phrase they just don't come over and talk about it. And (in some cases) complain that it's being used. So, basically, I don't say that anymore. I realize it pisses people off and to some degree I realize (now) why. I'm done with it--at least the way I used to assume it was ok to use it. ____

So anyway: I want to know about other things like that--words, phrases, ideas, ways of talking that piss people off and make them retreat to their own corners and--basically--get in the way of real conversations about games. Is that ok with you and can I ask you some things about it? Reply

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Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 06:58 PM @Zak S - It's disingenuous of you to expect a person to blindly agree to your underlying premises without being told in advance what argument those premises are going to be used to advance. You are proceeding in the manner of a person who intends to trap their opponent into the literal meaning of some formulation that was chosen at first glance to appear noncontroversial, but in fact is seeded with some dogwhistle phrase or smoking gun that you yourself selected. Reply Delete Replies Zak S Feb 29, 2012 07:05 PM

You are a very suspicious person, Nate Winterau. Sit back and relax and wait for something worth freaking out about to happen before you freak out, ok?

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 07:08 PM Who's freaking out? I'm just telling you that when you demand that people agree to your terms without being open about what you imagine those terms will prove, that people will be loath to trust you. Delete

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:11 PM

@Nate Winterau you seem like you think I have a motive to trap or attack Sean S rather than to do what I said which is talk about games. I'm not Colonel Kurtz, ok. I'm a guy with a blog where I talk about games.

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 07:16 PM I don't presume to speculate as to your motives. I am only telling you the impression that you are producing. When you consistently sign off with phrases like "Do you understand me and believe me?", "Is that ok? Can we do that?", and "Please register that you understand", you do nothing other than make people wonder why it is so important to you that

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your interlocutors agree with apparently trivial premises. Because a truly trivial premise would pass would not be so clumsily lampshaded, and because people tend to assume that words have not been deployed to absolutely no purpose, the natural inference that is made, and the natural impression that is created, is that there is something in the trivial premises that you think is far more important than we do. And we would like to know what we are missing. Delete

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:18 PM

Well you inferred wrong. Deal.

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 07:22 PM "Well you inferred wrong. Deal." - Zak S. "Zak S is fascinating to me, because he can be pretty well-spoken and lay out his ideas interestingly, but as soon as someone disagrees with him or asks him to clarify something, he loses his shit." - Evil Mastermind "I'm "fascinating" to you? We will have a conversation." - Zak S Delete

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:24 PM

Therefore what, Nate?

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 07:30 PM Therefore you are exhibiting the very behavior that you called out Evil Mastermind for noting--that when you are confronted with disagreement, you "lose[ your] shit." Here, as charged, the expression of a viewpoint you either disagree with or cannot quite comprehend has caused you to respond with snippy hostility, as manifested by the phrase "Well you inferred wrong. Deal." Delete

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Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:33 PM

If you think this as losing my shit then you must view the world as a funhouse of insane hostility. I would like you to rest assured that nothing I have said or done here is an expression of anger and I would humbly request that you either ignore my blog (since I am unable to make myself understood to you) or dial back the knob on whatever antenna you are using to try to detect anger.

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 07:42 PM I think that flatly telling a stranger to "Deal." is widely understood to be impolite. It makes you come across as dismissive and slightly angry. You are manifesting anger at my good-faith attempt to explain to you why the way you communicate is producing suspicion. Since my act is not one that would normally produce the level of anger and hostility represented by the deployment of the bare imperative "deal," I described you as losing your shit. You may think of this as a relative, rather than absolute, loss of shit. If "Deal." were your response to, say, a barrage of racially-charged invective, then you would be creditable with a great deal of sang-froid. In this case, however, your response is incommensurate and so you may fairly be described as having lost your shit. Delete

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 07:49 PM

Like I said, we aren't communicating well. The ideas and emotions you are receiving are not the ones I wish to communicate. You can stay on this webpage and be angry/confused etc. or you can go and live your life and be free of my horrible, mangled malcommunicative verbiage.

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 07:52 PM I'm not angry. I'm trying to help you to communicate better. Can you accept that I just want to help you? Delete

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Zak S @Nate

Feb 29, 2012 07:56 PM

I accept that thats what you want. I'm just saying I don't see much percentage in it for me. Like, I'm all for learning new languages, but I'm not gonna take all the effort to do it just so I can talk to one guy named Nate somewhere.

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 08:01 PM It's obviously not just me, though. Evil Mastermind noticed it, and true to form you got pissy about it. So the best thing is just for you to accept it and work to change it. Not just to talk to me, but to talk to these other gamers whose disagreement with you rubs you so raw. Delete

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 08:04 PM

If there are other people who are sane and not jerks who have a problem with the way I talk to people, they should post here now and they should also put quotes (from some thread or post other than this one) which includes examples of things they do not like that I said. Reply

John Bell Feb 29, 2012 08:04 PM I treat getting quoted on grognards.txt as a badge of pride. It's been a while since I checked, but I used to be one of the more quoted people on there, after obvious choices like John Tarnowski and Frank Trollman. Reply Replies Zak S Feb 29, 2012 08:06 PM

Quoted would be awesome. Then you'd know what people were complaining about. I tend not to get quoted much.

Ettin Feb 29, 2012 08:08 PM

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Congratulations on still being worked up about it!

Zak S @ettin

Feb 29, 2012 08:10 PM

Personal attacks don't fly on my blog. You've got the whole rest of the internet for that, Ettin.

John Bell Feb 29, 2012 08:13 PM You just need fewer line breaks. They look for paragraph-sized chunks to quote so that it looks good.

John Bell Feb 29, 2012 08:27 PM @Ettin> I'm not angry about it at all, mate. I enjoy reading grognards.txt and am glad to be featured in it regularly, though I notice my quotes haven't been as common now that I'm not posting on therpgsite anymore. :( Reply

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 08:17 PM "Personal attacks don't fly on my blog." - Zak S "If there are other people who are sane and not jerks" - Zak S (emphasis added) "You are a very suspicious person" - Zak S "dial back the knob on whatever antenna you are using to try to detect anger." - Zak S "Because of the noise made by your Group B people, there is a lot of hostility and cliquishness" - Zak S Calling someone you disagree with "Martin" as in the prissy Simpsons character. Reply Delete Replies Zak S Feb 29, 2012 08:30 PM

Personal attacks don't fly Saying jerks exist is not a personal attack on a

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person. You are a suspicious person, this is an objective fact. Evidence: http://forums.somethingawful.com /showthread.php?threadid=3098558&userid=0& perpage=40&pagenumber=1643 it is not an insult I don't know how the "antenna" thing could be construed as an insult. Sean referred to a disruptive group HE called "Group B"--I was using his terminology. I never said "someone I disagreed with" was "Martin". I said a specific kind of gamer resembles "Martin". I did not say it was not ok to resemble Martin nor did I say that gamer was anyone specific reading--which would be a personal attack. I also don't watch other people play so I wouldn't even begin to be able to separate the Martins from the notMartins. ____ Also, you likened me to a "douchey principal" so either that's a personal attack and ALL this you said gets deleted (since that makes you a person who makes personal attacks) , or it wasn't and since all the examples you gave are more mild than that, you get my point.

Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 08:38 PM Oh, that's a new rule, then, huh? I said that you talk like a supervillain or a douchey principal, and as a result my comments get deleted from a different website? The rest of it-- the antenna thing, and calling somebody "Martin" (definitely not a compliment) is definitely in the same ballpark as what Ettin said, so if what he said was a personal attack, then so is the Martin business. And here's what you did with the jerk thing. By inviting people who were "sane and not jerks" to post, to confirm what I had written, and seemingly to disinvite me from posting, you effectively implied that I was insane and a jerk. If you don't get that, it's really on you at this point. Delete

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Nate Winterau Feb 29, 2012 08:39 PM Oh, and it goes without saying that I don't know what on that page is supposed to make me "suspicious." Delete

Zak S

Feb 29, 2012 08:40 PM

Oh yeah, dude. Making personal attacks _on any forum_ gets you kicked out of here. Not because there are rules to make you behave or be polite, but because if someone is a dick then they don't get to post here. Reply

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